20 Episode results for "Mcdevitt"

Episode 8: 'Flimflammer'

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44:38 min | 2 years ago

Episode 8: 'Flimflammer'

"And by ADT, the number one smart home security provider, create ADT automations to lock your doors closed, the garage an arm your security system to help keep you safe. Visit ADT dot com slash podcast to learn more about how ADT can design and install your custom smart home backed by twenty four seven protection. Produced by you are and the Boston Globe. Do you think that the garden? The FBI has said they believe the tooth thieves that actually went in dead guy who he was making sure that they weren't too tight on my wrist, and he adjusted it several times, and he said, I you're going to be here for a long time. So I don't want these to be too tight. So he was real calm and real nice about it. And he also several times said sorry to do this. A woman of considerable means division. And with a passion for old masters begins collecting them Rembrandt Rubens Raphael, her collection goes, so vast. She builds an Italian Renaissance style palace in which to showcase it. And when she dies she leaves it all to us her art loving airs. But her small jewel of museum lacks funds. It security is weak. And in time it attracts the scheming of thieves these details could only belong to one museum. The Isabela Stewart Gardner in Boston. But what if we told you that these facts are also written into the DNA of another museum? One that is about two hundred miles away in glens falls, New York, the Hyde collection. Did you have guards guards? We just had a volunteer. Ladies who when we were opened meandering around usually Chit chatting with themselves. Fred Fisher was director of the hide for a dozen years starting in nineteen seventy eight when the museum was in its fifteenth year. It was the creation of the heiress of a paper fortune who built her talion palace. Overlooking the family mail in nineteen twelve Charlotte. Prime met in fell in love with her future. Husband Lewis hide in Boston at the turn of the twentieth century the pair loved art and Fenway court as his ability to our garden was still calling her museum had left an impression in glens falls. The hides built their more modest version old masters sixteenth century tapestries center, courtyard and all. When Fred Fisher was director, the paper mill in the hides, shadow still belched sulfur. There were other things that stunk to the endowment starved hide meant that Fisher's job. As director entailed, wearing many, hats, a rubber gloves, depending I was out sometimes working in the yard, washing windows, a variety of things just to keep this place clean or cleaner. It was a labor of love it truly was imagine. Then what Fisher must have thought when he heard that a science of one of America's richest families of Vanderbilt was in town. Begin hearing stories about this guy driving a Bentley and town probably in the summer of eighty once in a while guide would come in one of my volunteers. I just saw that Vanderbilt. Everybody's talking about this Vanderbilt guy. We saw him the other day at lunch, and he's such handsome. I hear he's got a lot of money. Being a director of a very poor museum when when you hear money, and you hear Vanderbilt you think, well, maybe there's hope here maybe or maybe Paul sterling Vanderbilt as he'd written in the museums visitor. Log wasn't who he said he was his fingerprints would be among the first to be sent to FBI headquarters in the wake of the Gardner museum robbery. Could Vanderbilt real identity hold the key to solving that heist? From WVU are Boston and the Boston Globe. This is last seen. I'm Kelly horn. And I'm Jack wrote Alito. This is episode eight flimflam. Win. Paul sterling Vanderbilt, I signed the guestbook at the height collection in April nineteen eighty he gave an address Katie hill house. That's the spectacular. Saratoga springs. Mansion of Vanderbilt widow just twenty three minutes down the I eighty seven highway from glens falls. If Saratoga springs is the bell of the ball. Glens falls is arguably her planer sister who doesn't get asked to dance, Katie hill. House was the Saratoga home of Mary Lou Whitney who has the social butterfly of Saratoga. So I thought wow. But Vanderbilt wasn't staying at Katie hill in Saratoga springs. He was staying at the queensbury hotel in downtown glens falls where he paid his bills in cash tipped big and aroused suspicion, even though he dressed well spoke. Well, he's good looking guy the so-called, Mr. Vanderbilt was just maybe a little bit too. I think it might have been just giving stuff away a little bit too much, but very very suave character at the time, the queensbury hotel was a grand if faded lady a fireside perch beneath a literary themed painting in the lobby seems to have appealed to Vanderbilt who boasted of not only a blue blooded pedigree. But a literary one two he reportedly spent many hours they're writing or telling people that's what he was doing because he sold himself to all of us as a as they freelance writer for the New York Times and various prestigious publications. You'd have to have family money to a rich freelance writer Vanderbilt looked in spoke and dressed like a Kennedy people said he sent armfuls of roses every week to a pretty local girl who'd become his fiancee, he had a Bentley and a chauffeur name Giles even in fancy territory springs. These details might have turned heads in humble glens falls. They caused a minor sensation on Halloween day in nineteen eighty six months after he first came to town Vanderbilt called on Fred Fisher at the museum to the courtyard and for about an hour or so he went on and on about how he's so interested in art, and he was writing about art, and he's particularly interested in art debt. And that was the beginning a little bit of concern because he went on and on about various thefts that he'd heard about it. You know, it was clearly movie kind of stuff catwalk while. Being on the ceiling and jumping into skylights. And you know, and he read about these things, and he started to write an article, and it was basically trying to draw of me about what's the security the museum. So I immediately that was going to the first red flag and not the last in subsequent meetings throughout the fall. Vanderbilt asked Fisher about renting the hides smaller mansion next door as a writing retreat. It's windows happened to look directly into the museum in mid-november, a friend of fissures in the city planning office told him that Vanderbilt had been in asking to see the museums floor plans. Vanderbilt had implied that he was there on official business to review the hide structural details. He'd asked to take the blueprints with him. But was refused and Fischer says Vanderbilt peppered him with questions about the museum security windows, secure. And are you do you have guards? And is there a security company that overseas to Kurti? Just more than enough to make me think. Oh my gosh. What is this guy about Fisher was torn between flickering hope that Vanderbilt really was good for much-needed windfall from the museum and a growing feeling that something wasn't right? It came once and said he was going to New York to see some of his family members. And he wanted to have a book of photographs of the patriots to show them because he was sure that if they saw these wonderful pictures, they wanna give us money. Well, I could only see that safe shopping list for. Fisher demerit, he told Vanderbilt that he and his young assistant intended to catalogue the collection. But progress was slow they had one beat up typewriter, and we're on a six month, wait list for a new one and IBM selectric. So you said, well, let me see what I can do and one day he showed up with three of them in the back trunk the Bentley they didn't quite look brand new. They weren't new Fisher told the museum's board. He was growing concerned about this Vanderbilt fellow and then that very weekend. A new story about of all things the IBM selectric deepened fishers, suspicions the chair of the board called me. Fred, you've got watch sixty minutes or talking about stolen, IBM, selectric sim. So long story short the following day. I had someone come up here from Albany of IBM a rep and he pulled their head labels on the to the Hyde collection on each one. When he pulled it labels off there. They were from a rental company in New York City. They weren't a gift. So that really got me. Pretty scared. Fisher began calling around trying to confirm Vanderbilt's credentials one of the calls. He made was to an actual Vanderbilt. She was very helpful. And she said, you know, first of all there were Vanderbilt, they wouldn't be driving a Bentley. And being that officious. That's just not the way we do. Really after said, I'm sorry. But you are be calling the police you ought to be doing something about this. So that's when I really knew that I had a problem. Fisher did call the police and when Paul sterling Vanderbilt next return to meet him at the museum plain clothes detectives from the states bureau of criminal investigation were they're eavesdropping. It was November twenty sixth nineteen eighty the day before thanksgiving as we were facing each other in my office. And he was he said I've got a thirty thousand dollar check for you in my briefcase. But I decided I'm not going to give you this Jack because you're just about the worst director any museum could ever have. You know, you should be ashamed of yourself at the boredom kind of an idiot. You were on and on and on. And then he said, and then I understand you're not using typewriters. And I said, oh, well, let's talk about the time a little nervous about how I was going to manage that. But after he put me down so much. I was ready to call his. And then he was very kind of fishy after that. And he kept going on about. Well, I'll take them back. If that's the way, you feel what did you say to him about the typewriter said look at fellow. We had evaluated in. They're not they're, you know, they're they're rentals. They're not you know, where to get these. And he was very red face to realize that he was kind of. Fischer says Vanderbilt was furious. He loaded his typewriters into his Bentley and left. So did the detectives they agreed that Vanderbilt was a condescending jerk but said they couldn't arrest them for it. Fisher decided to keep the glass mug. He'd served Vanderbilt coffee in just in case having fingerprints would come in handy carefully washed out a little bit of it. And then put it in a plastic bag. Save that for of Colombo. Obviously I'd seen way to movies. What came next was straight out of one. At five thirty in the morning on Christmas Eve, nineteen eighty Fred Fisher. Then the forty year old director of the Hyde collection in glens falls, New York awoke to a telephone call from police someone had tried to rob the museum Mandeville immediately came to mind, there was no that's so it was that is who it was only. Paul sterling Vanderbilt was really a twenty year old college dropout named Brian Michael mcdevitt from an upper middle class. Coastal town about twelve miles north of Boston. Brian mcdevitt, could never walk into Sirte springs, glens falls or any spot in America today and claim that he was a member of a fortune five hundred family. He would last about thirteen seconds or two beers, whichever came first but in a pre Google era. Brian mcdevitt, could and when he did this man Ronald cremony was a no void winning investigative reporter for the times union. Newspaper in Albany. New York is a clean cut kid out of the middle. Crust of Boston coming to an area has no idea where he is. Or what he's doing here? He just lands here to be near the horses and the beautiful people. And then the money that he's gonna take every opportunity to make himself a fixture and player in town. He's got the cash in the hospital. Do it mcdevitt had financed. His charade with about one hundred thousand dollars he'd stolen from some safe deposit boxes in Boston in the fall of nineteen Seventy-nine where he'd been volunteering for Senator Ted Kennedy's presidential campaign. A Boston detective had been looking for him since as far as he knew mcdevitt had just up and vanished. When he was arrested in glens falls mcdevitt explained his alias to police by saying, quote, I was doing this to avoid trouble with Massachusetts authorities regarding a particular legal fair, that's conman code for felony and now. He was facing multiple felony charges in glens falls to Ronald Kirmani was in the newsroom on Christmas Eve when the call came in about two men arrested on kidnapping and robbery charges and police are telling me that these two guys won twenty some years old and one thirty some years old kidnapped a woman, a female career driver at gunpoint and had elaborate plans to rob this museum of between thirty and fifty million dollars of classical our work, and I said, wow. Are you kidding me? This is not April Fools Christmas. Eve said no run the cups at no run. This is true. They're sitting here in a holding cell as I tell you cronies Christmas morning story about Brian mcdevitt and his planned heist on the Hyde collection was in the next day's paper. There was this unbelievable article just kind of blew my mind sitting there reading it to my wife thinking, I could be dead to my God. I had no idea. This was so sick. Serious. This was big news for a city of fifteen thousand best known for an annual hot air balloon festival and minor league. Hockey franchise mcdevitt confession to police reads, a screenplay for a Hollywood caper his tone is almost boasting. He told police, quote, I do equipment lists such as vehicles that would be needed. I reviewed the problem areas, such as whether there was a panic alarm someone could push mcdevitt had, but ether handcuffs and tape for subduing museum employees. He'd bought toolkit at Sears. He told police, quote, they were for various problems that we would run into our removing the paintings from the walls of the Hyde collection. Mcdevitt, accomplice told police they were prepared to cut some paintings from their frames they'd planned to empty the place. Their goal was to fence the stuff in southern Florida. It may have been worth fifty million dollars. They were boasting that they're take might be fifteen million dollars. They were gonna retire in style. And just jumped the gun to get out of the country fast. Of course, what happened was believe it or not this is like the the keystone cops. They got stuck in traffic and beautiful downtown glens falls the clock kept ticking on them and the Heide museum closed and the alarm was said and they're sitting in a truck with an unconscious. Fedex driver a couple of empty cardboard boxes. Duct tape pellet pistol and invitation to the county jail about that FedEx driver. She was twenty six years old and had been on the job for five years when mcdevitt accomplice handcuffed her covered her eyes and mouth with tape and knocked her out with ether in the back of her truck. Fred Fischer says mcdevitt appears to have targeted her specifically, but he was contacting. Fedex and mailing sham packages quite often only to find out who's on the routes. And at who the drivers were and really spent a lot of time a lot of effort trying to figure out how best to do this almost forty years later. The FedEx driver didn't want to talk to us. She wouldn't even come to the phone. Her husband said she had no desire to relive. What had been a terrifying? Experience in her statement to police. The FedEx driver says this about mcdevitt, quote, he said he wouldn't harm anyone. And that he isn't that kind of person. He said couldn't I tell that. By the way, he was treating me he said that if I helped him he would make it worth my while he said, he would give me twenty five thousand dollars for it. I said I didn't want the money. He said that he could put it in a Swiss account. So it would be there whenever I wanted it. He said that he was going to rob from the rich to give to the poor. She reported that mcdevitt had. I also told her that he risked ruining his family name by which of course, he meant Vanderbilt once he gave a statement to the police. She said that she recognized this voice the fee was blindfolded. But feed heard mcdevitt suppose in the Federal Express truck, and she can recognize this this. She was pretty sure it was him. The FedEx driver noticed something else. She told police, quote, the dark moustache didn't go with the blonde hair mcdevitt and his accomplice had worn fake black mustaches and early reports out of glens falls put the two would be thieves in FedEx uniforms. So did they didn't they dress up as Federal Express drivers? They did not make Devitt tried to buy uniforms wherever he did this. He was treated rather strangely. And I think he backed away thinking maybe that would maybe somebody get the idea what they were doing. But they did attempt to do it. Mcdevitt, accomplice was a divorced father who was working as an assistant manager at the queensbury hotel. He told police that he'd gone along with mcdevitt scheme out of fear. Quote, he mentioned love for my son. And it would be a shame. If anything happened to him to read the accomplices police statement is to realize that he had bought mcdevitt, cinematic, worldview wholesale he recounted that pre heist mcdevitt had given them and the operation codenames, they boned up on art theft by reading the book thinking like, a thief and post heist their plans included taking a Concorde supersonic jet to London or maybe Eric and hiding their millions with the help of financial planner in Los Angeles. The headline is the art heist that failed but not for lack of imagination Ronald cremony could not get enough of this story. He drove to mcdevitt hometown found a payphone inserted cold calling anyone who might have known mcdevitt. He went to the library. And found mcdavitt high school yearbook the insights, gleaned filled a three part profile published in the times union newspaper. The first installment came out on January fourth nineteen Eighty-one even in high school. Brian Michael mcdevitt was the consummate hustler at his best classmates recall. He was our ticket and aggressive at his worst. He was brash to the point of being obnoxious and today, he's in the Serta county jail and Lua fifty thousand dollars bail accused of plotting in elaborate robbery designed net him millions of art treasures vying mcdevitt, served two years for kidnapping and attempted robbery. He was living in Boston in nineteen ninety when the Isabella's to regarding resume was robbed a decade after his glens, falls misadventure. Fred Fischer says when he heard the news of the Gardner heist. He knew right away who did it. Brian mcdevitt immediately. Absolutely mmediately, not only. But my former staff, you know, we talked the first thing that came out of his mouth was for God's sake. Fred did you got to be mcdevitt has got to be. Why do you think that is it just it was? So clearly a similar incident, you know, timed around holiday disguised as somebody else duct tape, and you know, I did have handcuffs. I think at the Gardner the similarities were just very much there. Last seen supported by ADT, the number one smart home security provider, setup customization for your home's lights locks thermostat garage door and more. Visit ADT dot com slash podcast to learn more about how ADT can design and install your custom smart home backed by twenty four seven protection. In the summer of nineteen Eighty-nine Vermeer's the concert still hung in the Isabela Stewart Gardner museum. So did Rembrandt's only SeaScape storm on the sea of Galilee along with eleven or the works of art that would vanish before dawn on March eighteenth nineteen ninety and on July sixth that summer. Brian mcdevitt, met a young woman who had factor in his life for several years to come. Her name is Stephanie Rabinowitz. Did he tell you where he was from? New York somewhere New York. He was pretty quiet about his past. She's a photographer now. But then Rabinowitz was twenty two living in the Allston neighborhood of Boston and working in animation for film and commercials. Mcdevitt, was just a few weeks shy of his twenty ninth birthday when they were introduced to each other at a comedy club Rabinowitz, one home and wrote in her diary, he has beautiful is a mix between blue and green. He's a screenwriter for the wonder years and paramount and Columbia his name, and I color might have been true. But nothing else was fine. Mcdevitt, had dropped the Vanderbilt ruse, but was still laying claim to a literary status. He didn't have. But Rabinowitz didn't know that. So when six months into their relationship mcdevitt told her that he was headed to New York City for the writers guild awards ceremony. She believed him it was three days. Before the garden museum would be robbed Thursday, March fifteenth nineteen ninety Rabinowitz who kept a detailed diary at the time and shared it with us recalled that mcdevitt wasn't himself. When they'd spoken that day by phone. He seemed agitated nervous. And just not welcoming or lovey-dovey or inviting. She didn't hear from mcdevitt all weekend, but his tone had altogether changed by the time. He called her late in the day on Sunday March eighteenth, oh, he was happy cheery happy to be back. Happy to talk to me, you know, looking forward to getting together again much calmer than before he left much nicer and more at ease with himself. Just he was his whole demeanor was much nicer former FBI special agent Thomas McShane was also in Boston on March eighteenth nineteen ninety he'd been among the first on the scene of the robbery at the Isabel. Stewart Gardner museum was of course, taped off with the yellow evidence that we use the frames were all on the floor. Scattered in a real haphazard is way. It looks very. Disturbing. And we were just praying that they didn't ruin these paintings, by the way that what they left behind. It looked like a disaster McShane was an undercover art recovery expert for the FBI for a quarter of a century by his lights. He returned some five hundred million dollars worth of stolen and forged. Art. There was an L Greco Rubens and Rembrandt that had been on loan from the Louvre when it was stolen. And so where in your in the spectrum of all these cases, where is the isabela's to Gardner museum for you? That is top priority on my list. Mcshane says there was one suspect who was among the first to have his fingerprints sent to F B I headquarters. It's the same suspect that makes chain says he would still put his money on for having pulled off the Gardner heist. Brian Michael mcdevitt, he was interviewed by the and immediately afterwards, she took off to California. This was a con man of nature of Bernie Madoff. So you put Brian mcdevitt in that class of conman like the best you've ever seen exactly in the spring of nineteen ninety Brian mcdevitt left Boston and moved to a hilltop bungalow above Mulholland Drive in Los Angeles. He joined the west coast branch of the writers guild formed a production company and touted serious credentials as a writer for television and film. I is this sort of like. You know, aristocrat whose whose famous writer, then he's none of those things. And then not only know those things he's he's a crook analogy a crook. He's a monster. Ben Pollack directs television commercials and use it videos now in mid July of nineteen ninety one when he met Brian mcdevitt at the writers guild. He was nineteen just getting started in the business and naive. He was introducing me as this great writer had this deal with paramount and doing all these wonderful things. He said, why are you? I like your attitude. Give me something send me something that you wrote. But love to read it. So I'm like this is exactly why game. They're Pollock was completely taken in by mcdevitt sophisticated and entertaining and charming and giving articulate telling fund person kind of like an older brother and big stories that you just believed, you know, that kinda got but within six months of meeting. Brian mcdevitt, Pollock would tell police. He'd grown so leery. He hired a private detective to dig into mcdevitt story. He learned that mcdevitt business partner was himself wanted by the FBI that man would be extradited to Chicago on twelve counts, including grand larceny, Pollock learned that nothing mcdevitt had told him was true. Not the big things like his writing credits and not even the small things like his claim that he owned his home in the Hollywood hills Pollock made more calls starting with the producers of a major Hollywood film that mcdevitt had claimed to have been working on. I asked him. I said I understand Brian mcdevitt was a writer on this movie. And they're like Brian. And you know, then I started to tell them what was going on. And they got fascinated by that story, and they checked out other things. So they were able to check out other parts of his resume, and then they gave me the telephone numbers to other people. And then I did that and check this one not when I called a New Yorker, I called the guardian in London where he said he had published these stories and shit. Sure. Enough the whole. Knew he was it was that simple. All you had to do is call you had to do is check it out. But it was so brazen. Nobody did. I realized that I'm now with total flimflam artist. And I have to get out of it. Pollock confronted mcdavitt say I found out all these things about you. I just want to get out of this company. That's all I want. I was my heart was pounding. My mouth was dry. I was thinking more for him. How embarrassed I would be if somebody found out that I was flimflam caught me red handed. What I was thinking. Anyway, that's when it all started. He was cool as a cucumber. He told me how it was going to go. And he told threaten me said if you tell anybody what you discovered, you know, I'm going to I'm going to do in. And then he was sort of you know, straight up to my face. I mean, he was doing this just stuff you'd read in our move it, you know, from some wacko. There's really never happens. But he's that guy who did all the things you didn't think anybody would do Nick began quietly torment. Pollock waging kind of creepy psychological warfare. He'd knock on his door in the middle of the night. And then whistle from somewhere in the darkness. When Pollock opened up, and he began calling Pollock over and over sometimes one hundred more times a day just to hang up when he answered the hangup stuff was the real real insight to this guy sitting somewhere in the dark, or whatever and calling me over and over and over and over day after day after day after week after week after week, what was going through his mind when he was doing that it was incessant it took more than six weeks. But by April of nineteen ninety Ninety-two Pollock was able to convince the police that he knew who was behind the calls a trap on Pollock's phone proved him, right? Brian was so frayed of going to jail even for ten seconds. And this is what he told me that he would do anything not to go to jail and he felt like. He was going to go to jail because he got caught doing this thing with the phone. June of nineteen Ninety-two. Brought a perfect storm of trouble for Brian mcdavitt. He faced criminal charges for harassing Ben Pollack. He was on the verge of being ousted from the writers guild exposed as a felon in a fraud. And then an article in the New York Times outed him as a prime suspect in the Gardner heist. There followed a similar article in the Los Angeles Times, and then another in the Boston Globe. And on the heels of that, sixty minutes came calling Morley safer this shows late correspondent asked mcdavitt on national television. If he robbed the garden museum. No mcdevitt said but he admitted he didn't have an alibi. There. Followed a summons to a grand jury back in Boston the walls were closing in. It was around that time that mcdevitt asked Stephanie Rabinowitz who had by then also moved to allay to be his alibi with the FBI if they ever asked her about him and the Gardner. Heist shut it down because the minute. He said, I really need you to lie to the FBI for me right there. I was like I cannot lie to the FBI. And then asking me to be his alibi. You know, I didn't put two and two together because I wasn't thinking. Then like, oh, he was at the writers guild. Brian mcdevitt might have been in New York City the weekend the Gardner museum was robbed, but it wasn't at the writers guild awards as he told her Benowitz they were held that year in April Rabinowitz last song mcdevitt on June twenty-fifth nineteen ninety two at a party for show. She worked on she wrote about it diary and recalls that meeting, and he told me that this guy had paid him. I believe in remember him saying three hundred thousand to cut out the art pieces in the museum to give it to him. And then all he would have to do is collect the money and get out of the country, and then he could live the rest of his life being taken care of. And he offered me to come with him. He actually asked me so much, please, please come with me. We could live a great life together. I'll take care of you for the rest of your life. And as great as that sound did for twenty year old who's kind of struggling, I couldn't do it. Yeah. I was a little tempted and I thought about it. But I thought no I can't do it. And I'm not gonna live off of a whole lie and just everything that had happened. So I told him I couldn't do it. He was pissed again mad of set hurt. That was the last time. I saw him. She never heard from him. Again. The Benowitz did hear from an FBI agent about a month later Rabinowitz says the agent had come to her apartment to question her about mcdevitt and the Gardner heist the agent couldn't question mcdevitt himself though, because he'd vanished again. Nat Sehgal off is a writer in north Hollywood who's written a screenplay about Brian mcdevitt. He knew him both in Boston and in Los Angeles. And he liked him. I'm a reporter. I started off as reporter. I was cynical and I've dealt with so many scumbags in the film business both exhibition and distribution that an art fiv to me is a step up two years after mcdevitt left LA. He called Sehgal off absolutely out of the blue in October of nineteen ninety four. I got a phone call from him. He said he was in Rio de Janeiro waiting for the statute of limitations to run out at that point cut got the idea that somebody was after him he said he was in Brazil because there was no extradition treaty with the United States. And the also said that he had got wind from the grand jury that there might be an indictment handed down. So he fled the country Sehgal off didn't hear from Devitt again for another eight years when he received an Email in December of two thousand two we started writing back and forth. We have voluminous correspondence. Mostly he would send me articles about art heists all over the world. And we would talk about movies, and we talk about politics, especially the difference in politics between America and Central America. Because that point he was living in Medellin Colombia. That's where mcdevitt was reportedly last seen he'd set up a phony English. Translation business. Did you ever ask him outright? If he had pulled off the Gardner heist. I didn't ask Brian directly. But I tried to call you about it. Because by this point. I was quite curious. He sent me a how to guide in a sense of how to rob a museum. He told me about other people who were involved he told me about how the FBI was after him. These didn't come off as paranoid. These came off is sensible reports putting all the pieces together, I really did believe that he did it. But he wasn't going to tell me directly in this. I'd broken the code somehow and got him to tell me Sehgal off heard from Devitt one last time may tenth two thousand. Nd four he said he was calling from Medein Columbia and Sehgal off recorded the call Bryant mcdevitt, certainly is a where are you? Well, that's why I'm calling that. What I did want to. Over the internet because. I just wanted to talk to you for a couple of minutes. I don't have a lot of time. How are you? I'm fine. I'm holding my own here. You know, how it is mcdevitt got down to business he'd been ill. It was serious. He wanted Sehgal off to know. Tomorrow. You know, I didn't want you to. Hear about it late or or anything else and. You know, I consider one of the few friends that I have left. So everybody else has pretty much abandoned me. Colluding. And. I just felt that you should know. I hate to call you like this because you know, but I realize that you know, I have really been. As prolific as I used to be the internet. Yeah. Really? Got back in January. Let me just tell you what's going on K. Please. I'm going to be living to your ripe old age. That's for sure. Asked me to come back. And they told me that that I was HIV positive. Eight eight at came. You know? Dozens of women down here. Mcdevitt, told Sehgal off he had no Monja, and that he'd been having difficulty breathing. But anyway. I'm just running. I don't want anybody to know. But I wanted you to know because you one of the few people that have been so nice to be over the last year. So I wanted to let you know, what was going on. Because I I really don't have anybody to. Mcdevitt, sounds like a man facing his own death. In June Sehgal off heard from David's sister that her brother had died seventeen days after that phone. Call may twenty seventh two thousand four Brian mcdevitt was forty three years old. Several of the people who knew Brian mcdevitt, his former girlfriend the museum director he tried to scam the aspiring screenwriter, he flimflam d-. Don't believe he's dead. Now, the just former FBI agent Thomas McShane, we could dig him up and make sure that there is a body beneath the ground because I don't believe there is what does that Sehgal off perhaps mcnuggets one true friend think I don't believe Ryan faked his death for very very simple reason. He couldn't keep a secret with me if you called me before we're going into the hospital and said he didn't expect to come out maybe that was being overly dramatic. But he's the one who got in touch with me on every single occasion. Once he left Boston. I don't believe he could keep quiet. The garden museum's director of security Anthony Moray doesn't think so either he says he's seen mcdevitt hospital bills and Colombian death certificate. He says the guy is dead. What's more Amaury says the only museum Brian mcdevitt was capable of robbing was the one in his own mind. He wanted to rob the Hyde collection after all but failed on a drive through mcdevitt hometown Amaury dismissed the Brian mcdevitt theory entirely. The other thing about him being involved that was you have to think. This guy his whole life was about self aggrandizing. He wanted the attention. Right after the statute of limitations had run out. He had every opportunity to have come forward and said he had them in. What have been? I'm the world's greatest the five pulled off the biggest heist in history, and I'm not even arrested for it. Maybe. So he is in a good position to know. But then so is this guy. He was the one that kept me I feel ninety ninety to ninety five percent certain that it was him. Remember the security guard. We spoke to in the first episode the one we were only calling by his first name Randy. He says that when he saw photos of all of the Gardner heist suspects. It was only one that jumped out at him. It was a thief who had treated him in an otherwise courteous manner. He'd readjusted his handcuffs told him he'd make it worthwhile. If he cooperated apologized for having to do this. I feel like ninety to ninety five percent. Sure that he was the guy. Next time we go from the prospect of digging up the dead to digging up the Gardner treasure. Go to our website at WBZ. You are dot org slash last seen to watch video of Kelly detailing three main reasons why people steal art end to read Steve Kirk reporters notebook about a possible Gardner, heist connection to Whitey Bulger. Boston's most infamous mobster, that's WB. You are dot org slash last seen. If you have a tip theory or thought call our tip line at six one seven nine two nine seven nine nine nine. That's six one seven nine two nine seven nine nine nine. Last seen is a production of WB you are. And the Boston Globe are consulting producer is Steven kurkin production and sound design by John Perotti Eve's Zouk off his our production. Assistant additional production by Catherine brewer, our digital team is Amy Gorell Tiffany Campbell die go food Juara. Jesse Kosta, Robin Lubbock and Elizabeth Gillis. We had help from the Boston Globes show. Murphy Brendan McCarthy and John Tamaki digital help from Heather Cyrus Jason to Devon Smith and Ryan huddle editing by Jessica Alpert. Our executive producer is iris Adler. I'm senior reporter Jack Royer Ligo. Producer reporter Kelly Horan special. Thanks to artist Sophie count, who I used the title last seen at the garden museum in nineteen ninety one. And who granted us permission to use it? And thanks also to nets. I love for the audio of buying mcnuggets phone call in for a preview of his screenplay Rembrandt has left the building follow us on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at last seen podcast all one word. If you haven't already subscribe to hundred podcast in apple podcasts. Leave us review. It helps people find the show. Shame that he was such garbage. Because he was such a creative guy. You know, if he was just if it was just, you know, if you just wanted to live, honestly would have been very successful. But.

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Clinical Podcast: Clinical Reasoning | Amy McDevitt

Evidence In Motion Clinical

30:08 min | 1 year ago

Clinical Podcast: Clinical Reasoning | Amy McDevitt

"Welcome to the I am clinical podcast your host Dr John Childs and Dr Mark Shepherd. We'll be bringing you interviews with cutting edge forward thinking physical therapy clinicians and leaders the goal to further your knowledge base and bridge the gap of what was to what will be. Are you ready. Let's go welcome. Welcome everyone to the clinical podcast where we talk with diverse individuals within the healthcare profession. NBA On today I am joined by Dr Amy McDevitt. Uh who is an assistant professor at the University of Colorado at Denver Amy has really strong interest in manual therapy and clinical reasoning and of course I'm moyes joined with John Childs and sorry guys. I'm a little stuffy today. down in Texas and I couldn't tell if it was the Texas allergies that I had or if I just have a summer cold either way. It's I sound like I'm holding my nose when I talk so sorry listeners out there but amy John and I are just super excited to have you you on the podcast today thank you so much. I'm really excited to talk about a topic that I've been having a lot of fun with lately so thank you for inviting me to share some of my thoughts in dialogue with both of you. Oh no problem so I think clinical reasoning is one of those things that everybody kind of has an interest in but I'm always always curious to hear how people apple find their way to really kind of focus in on what clinical reasoning is so how did you how did you get into this line of business. You know I think clinical reasoning as an educator. It's something that I think I think about educate in entry level physical therapist program starting in some of the entry level courses and then I get to see students really progress through some some of their musculoskeletal content but clinical reasoning I think we would all agree is just one of those skills that transcends all classes from Foundational Sciences nces to patient management courses to all patient populations and settings and I think I think we would also say as educators that it's just one unskillful that we know is going to contribute to the success of a clinician or it's it's GonNa be their total demise if it's not developed and facilitated -tated properly in their education so I think what I'd say further is that we all in the past have had those students that just can't quite make the leap from eight A. B. and and we just have seemed to struggle with articulating skillset that may be needed to be improvement. We just knew that something was awry or Amiss and in that they weren't quite good enough for stay for clinical practice yeah and I think I've been one of those folks coming out and you think you kind of have figured out a little bit as a student and then you know you kind of failure way towards somewhat success where you're kind of keep above water but it wasn't really until I really focused in on unreasoning and understanding a process that I really felt as though my confidence Kinda got better and my bias were more out in the open so it's just kinda. We need to see you getting into that already with with entry level students how has that been. It's actually been really fun and I think when it comes to the entry level student. Can't we really need to start developing these skills day one in the didactic as well as in the clinical skills courses because I think sometimes we think they're we're not ready and they don't have enough context but what we know from the research surrounding clinical reasoning is we need to foster it need to model it and we really need to develop the skill is that early we know from the clinical reasoning ability really does develop over time within a PT curriculum and beyond and I know both of you have seen this in residency in in Cilicia education but if we don't create opportunities to foster it. It's really hard to have the expectation that students are going to grow and that they're going to develop the skill yeah and I think John will probably want to know some more of the details about how this is living out in entry level a little later but before we even get to that point I I think it's important that we kinda define. What clinical reasoning is it's this term? That's thrown around all the time with at conferences or in a programmer on social media reading about stuff what is clinical reasoning okay so first of all you just ask the million dollar question mark the money. What is the reasoning? I think I think it brings up an important point or actually an important gap. the conundrum is that there's really a lack of consensus about how it should be defined how it should be taught and assessed and this isn't just isolated to physical therapy education. This is also in in medical education and residency so if I if I were to give you my definition I guess by definition is that we know we have knowledge and we know we have skills that we need to understand but the essence of clinical reasoning is really the decision making making the thought process in the thinking that occurs in the context of clinical practice in making these decisions judgments really needs to come from a strong rationale canal so in pt because we really focus on this bio psychosocial model with with a lot of our educational programs it also incorporates keeping the patient nation at the center of this decision making so not just about execution of skills but it's it's keeping the patient folk focus while also reflecting on on what you're doing through your exam through your intervention and then reflecting on what you did and the decisions that were made during during patient encounter. It sounds like it's not so much like you're trying to teach like one strategy for reasoning through a case you know for every patient and you may see it's it's kind of if that reflective nature which when you think about it doesn't really make sense. It's like how can being reflective help with my choices that I need to make either in the the pastor in the future. So how do you see that component or Meta cognitive aspect there you know I think you brought up a really good point. which is is this aspect of reflection and I think sometimes we don't realize that reflection is also a skill that we have to teach and model in our students in and so to give you an example of of how we do this in our curriculum for example wants? A student goes through some form of assessment whether it's a competency or a practical. We've really let them drive the feedback session. We really let the student drive the dialogue around what they did what decisions nations they made in what decisions might be different if they had the opportunity to do it again I think as educators we just almost can't even help ourselves and we just WANNA a jump in there and and give them feedback positive or negative but that starts to taint their thought about how they did and so making space for students to reflect act and teaching them that skill is really a really important concept related to clinical reasoning so amy I want to shift gears just a little bit not in the concept because we're gonNA stay on clinical reasoning but really dive down into the entry level student in how that impacts their clinical reasoning so I'm going to have to first of all divulge a little bit of my bias and that is you know early on when I heard the word clinical reasoning I sort of likened it to like intellectual freedom and academics where it was sort of an excuse to do whatever the hell you WanNa do. In other words clinical reasoning just became the crutch that you could lean on to adhere to whatever bias that you had despite evidence glaring you in the face to do something more specific and you know the example in amy you're obviously familiar with the prediction rules in this concept upped of if a B and C do d and if the NF than do something different and sometimes decision vision structures like prediction rules have been used as an something as as as the opposite of clinical reasoning in so I don't. I don't think that that's the case. I think that decision rules that are based on evidence is a form of clinical reasoning that makes it easier rather than harder harder but if you would kind of put it in the context of the entry level student the novice so to speak you hear all the time if you watch experts practice this experts tend to do the same thing over and over and over with more skill and I think that's really true yet with the entry level students. Sometimes they think that the history is one that takes you an hour at least to do a history you collect all this disparate information and somehow you're supposed to distill all of these thousand thousand points of data into making a choice whereas the expert sort of gets into the decision making process much faster so that's a long way of saying if you would kind of compare and contrast sort of clinical reasoning versus prediction rules and our prediction rules you know simply something that novices Jews versus the expert. How do you think about those concepts you know? I think that's a really good question and at least in our in our curriculum at the University of Colorado what we do know about the early learners they do need frameworks and they actually do need some rules might even operate a little bit better if you give them some structure in I think clinical prediction rules and the Trenton based classification in clinical practice guidelines actually allow for a little bit of structure in a little a little bit of framework just to get students moving in the right direction. I think we can't have such high lofty expectations on students that they're just GonNa you know what to pull in when and so we do use those as a as a jumping off point but I think by the end of the education or at least when they're kind one of launching into their the end of their education as an entry level clinician we do have the expectation that they should be able to move beyond some of these rules instill continue to fall back on them and use them when needed but hopefully by that point their clinical reasoning has matured and developed so they are able to really make their own hypotheses based on what they get their exam and then subsequently come up with a plan of care but I think trine based classification ooh and clinical prediction rules have actually done a pretty good job of of helping to give us a starting place for these students yeah no that's a great point amy and that it really leads me into the next sort of question and that is that that there are individuals who talk about this idea that we've really over sort of emphasized specific treatment techniques and skill sets whether it be sort of manual therapy or dry needling needling or exercise or you name whatever sort of the latest and greatest quote unquote hot technique is in that in that really what's what's more important is the framework of clinical reasoning and the process that you go through to evaluating and treating a patient patient and that really it's more having a systematic process for evaluating patient that at the end of the day is more important than in the specific treatment you use so if you would just you know what are your thoughts around which of those is sort of more important in how they interact interact with each other. You know I think one thing I do WanNa bring up in it in it is related but in it'll take me a second to get there so be patient but one thing that I think has helped us here anyway is using the ICF so the international classification of functioning in function disability ability the ICS framework in this concept of patient centered care has really kept us a little bit more honest. I think what we find an entry level education is we spend a lot of time teaching psychomotor skills and teaching methods of examination in lots of different interventions so the students have a lot on the menu but we tend to spend time on things that are harder for them to develop a skill sets but then when we teach them to go back to the ICU framework and we use a tool here at the University of Colorado now to help us talk about articulate and assess clinical reasoning I think when we bring the ICS framework back back it starts to help students understand that it's not all about the fancy tools there are many components to the patient that are very specific to each it you make human that needs to be addressed in there in NE- intervention in the plan of care so you know I think it is still very daunting. I can't imagine now being a student I think twenty years ago when I was in PT school was I don't know for some reason it just seems so much more simple so it is very complicated in a nutshell if I told the answer to your question but I think for having US grounded in a framework has really helped us to to help students appreciate all aspects of patient Jason Care Interested actually kind of flip this question to John You know John You know you you were so so oh instrumental in developing a lot of these clinical prediction was at least in the muscle skeletal realm I mean how is your mind shifted over the years as relates to that I mean obviously you have a stake in it. It's what you research for a number of years. I can't hear you talk about differently than maybe you did ten years ago. Yeah I mean I I think you know we all grow up over time right in our idealistic sort of mindset. I think we all want to believe leave that artificial intelligence or that data can really inform your decision making down to the most granular level around what therapies you ultimately apply and to me. That's not a bad thing. I think the difference is is that you know we're not there yet right that we simply don't have enough insights it's into the complexity of the human body and the disease processes and in pain to to really understand that I mean I I think as we learn more and more about why individuals suffer and why they're in pain and what's contributing to that theoretically speaking over time the decision making strategies Audubon become more precise in more dare. I say robotic I I hate to use that that term because it almost seems to take out this idea that the of the of the human being interacting with the patient and I'm not implying that at all aw but I think we have to be open to the concept that clinical reasoning win it is done at its best is more rather than less automatic if the data is there to support that level of decision making and so I think it's just I don't I don't view them as polar opposites at all I think they're highly interrelated and that as care improves in his evidence continues to evolve I'd like to think that too therapist examining the same patient that clinical reasoning if it works results in them coming to the same rather than different conclusions where where where I just have a fundamental problem with clinical reasoning in the way that I sometimes hear it couched is that you have a single patient with back pain you have fifty therapist examine that patient and they all come up with fifty different sort of strategies for managing edging it that is just nonsense in you cannot tell me that any measure of clinical reasoning justifies fifty different approaches for managing managing the patient so I would say that clinical reasoning cannot be an excuse for massive variability in the way that we care for patients and we just have have to let the data catch up and be able to better inform more informed in evidence based strategies does that make sense dad and I be interested to hear what your thoughts are on that because you've you've obviously been well-versed in the literature kind of frame that from what John said you know I I can't I'd say that I disagree with that statement because I think there is too much variability and heterogeneity and you know even though we have to move away from expecting acting a single right answer. We certainly don't want the expectation to be that there's fifty right answers you know as John mentioned that you can have fifty people doing examined examined and you have fifty different potential outcomes so I think it I think the clinical prediction rules have helped to decrease some of this heterogeneity and care era especially in areas around low back pain in. I think you know clinical reasoning. I agree. It can't be any any kind of excuse but I think when we're using things like clinical prediction rules we still want the student to fully incorporate the patient and their goals and their needs because that's not written into the clinical prediction rules. You know what that particular human needs in in their plan of care with a therapist but clinical reasoning in my mind is still really about solid rationale in solid decision making but it can still. I think Mary well with things like clinical prediction roles. I think it does it does work yeah and I I think how I've thought about it over the years and and being involved with with fellowship training and gone through myself you know to to John's point you you know you you could theoretically defend a lot of things that you do whether it's evidence-based or not right you can your own bias. He's can feed into your own reasoning reasoning system and I think you know if you're if you're trying to travel say you're trying to get from from Baltimore to. La You can get on an airplane and you can get a to it in many different ways but there's going to be one path that's direction. That's GonNa get you there. The quickest and I think you know when we look at really the the little bit of literature literature that's out there that looks kind of like training and in reasoning and I'm thinking about Jayson Rodriguez study when you look at like at least fellowship trained folks in an orthopedic Manual Physical Therapy you know you may get similar outcomes but you're going to get there quicker more proficiently if you're using a sound reasoning model and that's kind of where my head is gone and I think John Deere Point. There's plenty of people out there. Who would be like well? I don't think that's true true but if you put people who are using very structured framework evidence-based they're going to get that same outcome a lot quicker and to me that makes a much different kind of outcome overall when you're thinking about people who transfer from acute pain chronic and then all the stuff that comes along with it in so that's just it's so interesting to hear how each point here kind of as developed over a number of years but it's just it's nice to hear and refreshing rushing to hear kind of how how everybody's kind of changed over the years and how it's directed you in your reflections on clinical reasoning itself so I kinda WanNa go you want a little bit of a soapbox that I know you and I have had as of recent when you look at the literature and you look at you know maybe a randomized controlled trial obviously the higher up on on the the levels of evidence pyramid. You can't really get a good idea about some of the parameters of what was done and I know oh our friend. Jodi young has done some research on exercise prescription and you know the variability in the reported literature so a lot of times we look at case ace reports right to really give us kind of the step by step what were people thinking with these cases and I wrote a blog recently about how I think these this case reports are are becoming less prevalent. What are your thoughts on? This is the case report a dying breed and how does that affect our ability to reason through cases chases I agree with you and I do think it's a problem especially Adam going to going back to speaking about the entry level physical therapy a p student and residents were really with those individuals attempting to emphasize the skill set of thinking in the thought process. That's involved with making decisions and when you have really well written case reports the authors are able to articulate this thought process. I think it really helps us to set an expectation in for what we are looking for in residence in our fellows in our students and I think it's pretty liberating for us as educators to see examples of this thought process take on paper I think in in education a lot of times we use cases you know to help students understand how to think through a case or how to reason through a case right but it's such a struggle to be authentic in frankly the students smell the blood in the water. He says that lack authenticity and so I feel like the case report is kind of the last standing you know she of literature that really makes that invisible process of thinking very visible symbol and I think it's I think it's a shame that we don't see more of it and clearly we're seeing a little bit less publication of them in the literature because sometimes it it is the case report which is where that that idea begins or blooms and then maybe in a randomized controlled trial starts but there's no articulation the thought process in a randomized controlled trial right up in HAL. Those authors even got to the place where they wanted to study this so you know I I do think there is a place place with a case report and I think we have to continue to to fight for that because it's where it's a think aloud come to life really for our thought process that people go through very patient examination all the way through your intervention. Yeah I remember you had mentioned earlier and and you Kinda were alluding to it. I think you use a form at least with your entry level students. What's the name of the forum and can you give us just a quick synopsis of what that looks like yeah sure so the the the tool that we adopted a couple of years ago is is the clinical reasoning assessment tool? It's recently been renamed the crap it was developed by Creighton University University the Croats and we've really liked this too. I think would it would it really did for us here. Is it created a common language it created created a common definition and it just created some some expectations and some benchmarks you can look at this tool up online. the original article was in J. O. A P T so the are very prominent education journal in what this tool does is it really kind of breaks clinical reasoning down into some digestible components opponent so there's there's three types of knowledge that these authors believe contribute to clinical reasoning. There's there's content knowledge which is your foundational sciences in in your anatomy and pathophysiology and whatnot and then there's procedural which are the things that you do from a psychomotor standpoint so the skill set that you need and that your communication skills and then you have conceptual reasoning nets really pulling all of this together in the context of a patient in so because because this tool provides some definitions and some benchmarks in some behaviors that we should be looking for it really helped us at least it to help the student understand what some of our expectations for them and so I I really liked the tool. We've been studying it for about four years in our curriculum I'm all the way from the beginning of their curriculum through clinical education and at this point we've trained core faculty. We've trained affiliate faculty. We've trained our clinical the education community on how to use this tool and if anything I think it's really helped test to help the student to understand where they're starting where we expect back them to go and maybe the skills that they need in order to really in our minds practice sound clinical reasoning amy me that's good launching point really into kind of my closing question as we head towards Iraq and that is that if there's any one thing about clinical reasoning that you see students or clinicians struggle with what aspect of clinical reasoning would that be and what's the solution for it you know I think that's a good question. It's something that's still very prevalent. In the literature is being a gap that we need to fill. I think all of us would say that when students are meeting these benchmarks whether it's didactic or earned clinical environment it's really hard and frustrating for both the educator in the student if this can't be named because if we can't name it than what is the skill that we're expecting students to improve upon if we don't know what the benchmarks are in in this clinical reasoning ideal is a moving target as I mentioned it can be really frustrating. I think sometimes these benchmarks and expectations expectations are really arbitrary and clinical reasoning ability is sometimes just seen through the lens of the educator or the clinical instructor which adds another your lawyer of complexity so I think if there's one thing gosh you had to you had to ask that question John didn't you the most difficult and challenging challenging question about all of this that I think if it's just that that one aspect of clinical reasoning it's just helping the student to really make sound and decisions but still valuing and keeping in the center of all of this the individual goals and the expectations of the patient I mean we all know expectation. Expectation patient expectation plays heavily into our outcomes with his it's helping a student to see all aspects of the patient context access presents itself with each unique patient. That's really hard for students. I think to see especially early in education. I think it's a little bit better developed. I would say in in residency and fellowship but to to give a nice summit of answer to your to your question. I think it's helping the students to see all aspects of things that are playing saying into the case. The context the environment personal factors family preferences individual patient goals. It's really hard to expect students didn't take all of that as you said John distilling it down into something and then on top of that expecting sound clinical outcomes to come out of that yeah no I mean I think that's a great answer and as we head towards you know a rap it's easy in the beginning phase two of your career to sort of think about about clinical reasoning just from a sort of a medical signs and symptoms based approach in wow you add into that the context of Culture in the patient's preferences references and therapeutic alliance and all of the non cognitive skills in motivational interviewing. You suddenly realize that clinical reasoning goes well beyond a signs and symptoms and really encompasses sort of a whole person concept and building a relationship and report all of which somehow magically adjective comes together and forms a you know an outcome over time so I totally totally with you on that way me. It's been great to have you on the show. Oh I know our listeners are really going to enjoy this topic of clinical reasoning so thanks so much for joining us and hope everyone has a great day. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it takes any thank you wow what a great discussion with Doctor Amy McDevitt amy just really had some terrific insights sites around all things clinical reasoning and how clinical reasoning is related to and how it compares in contrast to prediction rules and just the role of clinical oh reasoning and informing care whether you be an entry level student New Grad an experienced clinician and just the importance that that that plays in ultimately in the outcome of the of the patient I really enjoyed wrap up there as we sort of brought to bear this idea that clinical reasoning reasoning as far more than just incorporating signs and symptoms but really the entire context the patient and culture in Asia preferences and Therapeutic Alliance so what another another great episode with Doctor Amy McDevitt as always thank you to our listeners you can reach out anytime at MTM on social media or you catches a daily or at the blog as always thanks for listening and we look forward to seeing you again so thanks for listening to the IM clinical podcast with Dr John Childs and Dr Mark

amy John University of Colorado Doctor Amy McDevitt Dr John Childs clinical instructor Texas NBA Denver acute pain apple ICF assistant professor Cilicia Dr Mark Shepherd US programmer
Misery Loves Fried Chicken | With William Jackson Harper

Modern Love

25:01 min | 1 year ago

Misery Loves Fried Chicken | With William Jackson Harper

"Modern love the podcast supported by, oh, my God dot info. We need to talk about something constipation abdominal pain and bloating if these symptoms come back again. And again, then, it may be time to seek help go to all my gut dot info where you can learn more about your symptoms. Need to unwind a bit kind world is here? Termi- job at all. That's good with the world with stories about transformative acts of kindness. Tune into new episodes, every Tuesday to add some positivity to your life. Subscribe, now on apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Produced by the island at you are Boston. From the New York Times, and WBU are Boston. This is modern law. Stories of love loss and redemption. I'm your host magnetized birdie. How have you gotten through your worst breakup, Tinder new hobbies cheap alcohol, putting your saddest music on infinite repeat will Mark mcdevitt, writes about a friend who helped him get through a break up in his essay misery loves fried chicken to William Jackson Harper is back to read the piece he stars in the good place on NBC. You can also see him in the new movie, mid Somare this July. Nate was my break-up buddy. We were introduced at scruffy Murphy's Irish bar by a mutual friend who thought we'd like each other. And I like Nate instantly. With his tight crew. Cut in animated features he seemed transplanted from another generation. You can easily. Imagine him as a bit player in a fifties war movie young outlines like, hey, Sarge over here. He's in a whole or shot me mom bleeding. We hung out that summer evening in support of favorite local band. But when our mutual friend, left's Florida for Boston in Nate started seeing a woman are fledgling friendship stalled out. I wasn't relationship then too. She and I have been together for more than two years, and even have begun to talk about marriage, which both excited and terrified us. We were approaching thirties. So it seemed like the logical next step. And then it all unraveled rather suddenly. Leaving me angry. And. Bewildered. It was during this aftermath that I bumped into Nate again. I, I didn't quite recognize him. In the years since I've seen him he'd packed on a good twenty pounds in grown a scruffy beard. Gone were the once animated features zippy, one liners, something about his hollowed out stare and shellshocked appearance told me his relationship hadn't worked out either. No surprise, then that the place we ran into each other was the self help section of Barnes and noble. This time are bonding was instantaneous, and absolute the kind share between shipwreck survivors on a bobbing yellow liferaft, while no model of mental health myself. I leased had a couple of months. Head start on eight for him only weeks after his break up the world was still a minefield of painful, associative is sudden with of jasmine or in innocent radio jingle would produce in him. Bouts of demented, laughter or uncontrollable crying. Over the next couple of months. Our friendship flourished favorite recipes for Chile were exchanged along with Patsy Kline records. We swapped are many self help books, which we refer to titles, like, Minna from Mars women for the birds and cohabitating. No more. I gave Nate the entire collector's edition of the three stooges he gave me a cactus. He's prickly little Basser tough Hombres. He explained just like you we may be in the desert right now. But I'm here to tell you that will get through this. Over time our anger and despair gave way to confusion. Just what happened anyway, where do we go? Wrong. Like a crack team of. F A A. Investigators we scoured the crash sites of our respective disasters. Looking for clues details and timelines were relentlessly hashed over. But the cause of Nate's, mid air explosion remained as mysterious to us as the forces that had caused my own relationship to belly flop into the Everglades like a jumbo jet with the wing sheared off. Are futile. Search for answers only deepened our depression. But the great thing about depression, is that it's not one-size-fits-all but comes tailor-made to suit our particular personalities. For me. It's about insomnia skewed priorities and loss of interest. Food work correspondence. Even the three stooges all lose their luster. The big picture fades as minor details. Assume, gargantuan proportions CDs will suddenly beckoned to be rearranged from alphabetical to reverse chronological order and back again, I simply have no choice. The only real consolation is found in pop music, Leonard Cohen of Costello. The miss a never ending cycle of misery heartache, providing grist for our nil of self pity. Pump music has the amazing ability to make you feel depressed and hopeful at the same time, depressed that you identify with the sentiment in hopeful, because someone feels more miserable than you. For me that someone was Nate. The only brightness to my day was seeing my break-up, buddy and feeling marginally better that he was even more press. Tonigh-. He showed up at my door carrying family size bucket of chicken drumsticks. If I'd lost all interest in food, Nate head gone in the opposite direction, he gobbled up anything that wasn't fastened to the floor. Even so he couldn't figure out his weight gain. I just don't get it. He'd say wolfing down his third cheeseburger. I mean where did all come from? It's like you, turn thirty and boom. You're pumpkin. As just a little exercise. They were tennis courts near department instantly became our habit to play once or twice a week. Neither of us played well, but with a lot of sweating in grunting it proved therapeutic. When I activated in old shoulder injury. Our tennis came to an end after that I didn't hear from Nate for a couple of weeks and I'd assumed he'd found another tennis partner, or become busy at work. But when my phone calls and Email messages, went unanswered, I decided to drive over to his apartment and check up on them. His car was there. But the blinds were drawn. After I pounded on the door for a good fifteen minutes, finally, poked, his head outside, like a giant mastodon awakened from thousand year, slumber. Something about his glassy eyed stare, and the greenish orange hue of his skin told me he taken turn for the worse. Walking into his darkened Lehrer. I understood that Nate head, not found another tennis partner. Instead he had crossed over into just of Conrad territory. He journeyed up the name river into the heart of darkness. Without air conditioning apartment was a good ten degrees, hotter than the ninety degrees outside the at home. Sweat unwashed, clothing. In rotting food hung heavy in the air. A chicken carcass lay on the kitchen floor stripped to the bone as if by Rana. Walking to open a window noticed. There were vegetable peelings all over the floor. Nate appeared moments later from the kitchen mechanically shaving carrot when he finished he chomped on the carrot and started peeling another. What's with carrots? I asked. Nothing. He said, I just quit smoking. And you took carrots. I guess we saw them to do with my hands. I filled three garbage bags with chicken, bones and pizza boxes and took them out to the dumpster, smack in the middle of the living room directly in front of the television was a shiny new bench press in giant barbell, glossy, brochures, bright plastic folders about how to become a real estate millionaire in ten easy. Steps litter, the floor. Gradually picture began to emerge of the man who hadn't slept or washed, in days, spending his time, alternately lifting weights watching late night, infomercials in eating fried chicken. Larmer and anxious. To get out of there is suggested we go see a movie he was game. And after stopping for two bags of carrots we pulled into the theater. The movie of the summer was castaway starring Tom Hanks as Chuck Noland clever chap who washes ashore on a desert island after his plane goes down in the Pacific. As his hope rescue fades. He begins the long battle for survival. More important his sanity. Something about the story spoke directly to Nate in me. Why? I don't think castaway was intended as a comedy. We never laughed so hard in all our lives. It was like watching ourselves of their on screen people audience glare disapprovingly as we laughed in all the wrong places. We have called when Chuck knocked out his tooth with an ice skate. While the rest of the audience sniffles, as he selected the tree from which to hang himself, we clinched our sides with Larry. Hopelessly isolated and lonely. Chuck develops a relationship with volleyball giving the ball face even aim Wilson. It was Wilson more than anything that help preserve his sanity allowing him to mount. A last desperate bid to escape his island prison. I thought about the strange set of circumstances in coincidences that have brought Nate in Mita. Gather. I told myself he was fortunate to have me a friend. And while keeping an eye on him had allowed me to feel charitable magnanimous. I knew my impulse was anything but altruistic in truth Nate was the art stick by which I measured my own progress helping need feel good about myself, and preserve my own sanity. Nate I realized. Had become my Wilson. This. Overweight slightly adult person munching carrots, next to me, was my life raft. With a movie ended we shuffled outside with the rest of the Saturday night date. Crowd handsome, boys and coltish girls dressed in shorts and t shirts. They wandered outside laughing and smiling blissfully unaware of the dangers. They courted. Would they still be happy and smiling in a year's time knowing as we did that to love is to risk great unhappiness? For them. The movie was over. Forgotten like the two large buckets of popcorn left under their seats for us. The movie clung, like a lingering dream state. It followed us into the parking lot and beyond. After getting ice cream eight nine set outside miring the clear night sky, heavy to have company, but. Each secretly wishing he was somewhere else. With someone else. I couldn't even recognize it for the glorious time. It was. Six months later. I finally managed to escape my own desert island by moving to New York. And though I since lost touch with Nate, I often think about them. When I do, it's not the grief of my horrible break-up, remember, but the laughter in friendship, followed. Don't believe me. Just ask Chuck Nolan. Sure he feels the same way about Wilson. That's William Jackson Harper reading, Mark mcdevitt, essay misery, loves fried chicken to we'll hear more from Marc after the break. Modern love is sponsored by own my gut dot info. We need to talk about something abdominal pain, bloating, and constipation. You tell yourself. It's not that bad. You take laxatives modify your diet and exercise routine. But thinking about it all the time is frustrating. This doesn't have to define you, if your concentration and domino symptoms come back again. And again, and you don't know why then it may be time to seek help go to Mike dot info slash podcast where you can learn more about your symptoms. That's my gut dot info slash podcast. Mark mcdevitt essay was published in two thousand five. He says it's strange to reread the piece today this morning when I was coming in here. I thought, oh gosh. I better read the story again. You know, it's been been fourteen years on the ferry coming here, and I'm chuckling to myself, laughing with the benefit of time in hindsight. I can look at it now with a kind of detachment. So I had a lot of compassion for that guy who's sort of confused and reeling and then looking to this other person as sort of a life, raft and glomming onto him in a way that is now very, very humorous to me. But at the time, you know, it felt like a drowning Mark never heard from Nate about the essay. And he's not sure if Nate's read it didn't stick it under his nose, nor did I hide it. And we fell out of context after after we broke up. We didn't talk for many years, and then reconnected. Facebook, as many people to we shared some very nice notes memories. And then we kind of winter separate ways again. And more thought Nate was a fascinating character, one of the qualities that I like to bet Nate was that he was an open book in it was he was defenseless in other words, and we all have our armor that we go into the world with right. You know, look at me. I'm so together. I'm, I'm so polished, and he was just a mess. And he didn't disguise that and it made me love him. I think what we're looting, too. Alluding to is, is depression, and male depression, and different men will we'll deal with that in different ways. And I think in his case he stopped taking care of himself. And perhaps, you know, he might not like to be reminded of that, you know, the, the carrots or the forgetting to shower for, for days at a time that kind of thing, some people don't want to remember that. I understand that. Mark got through his own break-up by getting deeply involved at his work, and new life in New York City, and eventually, he met his wife through his uncle who he says, kept pestering marked, call her. I had no interest in meeting, anybody. And certainly not anybody that my family was going to recommend to me, but, but he became such a nuisance. Any becomes such a pass. Okay. Fine. I'll meter and when we did meet it was like, oh, okay, now, I see now, I see what he was trying to tell me. But Mark says he was a little hesitant to take the risk of getting into a new relationship. We just took it slowly. At least I did. I took it very slowly. Maybe she would've liked that we got married quicker, but I Myers, you know, ten year engagement is not unusual. So the break-up Mark writes about in his piece was his last, but he remembers clearly that when you're in the midst of break-up it can feel like there's not much. That's worse, the only advice I would say his don't isolate. There's a great tendency. At least there is for me to draw down the curtains and call them to the covers and listen to this. And kind of go into the into the dark place. Sometimes it's by dint of will you have to force yourself to get out the door. You're not even in the mood. But you just say I'm doing this. And he says it's important to remember that things will get better. Eventually you're going to move through that, that period, you'll come out the other end and you may even look on with warm affection, even the misery of my break-up, you know, with me, and we, we, we had a good time we're going through something. So it was very hard to, to see it for that in the moment. But I look at it now with great tenderness and Fundus, especially for Nate. Mark mcdevitt. He's a writer and screenwriter living in New Jersey, with his wife and son more after the break. The fact that in two thousand nineteen where having this debate about measles, vaccine, makes my head want to explode, which is tennis. Strange really strange place in the only people speaking up the parents, endless thread, the podcast from WBU are Boston's NPR station and read it brings you a special series on the history of vaccines in anti Bax subscribe on apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. Here's Daniel Jones editor of the modern love column for the New York Times modern love the column may be mostly about romantic love and probably secondarily about family, love and family bonds. But we do have, you know, really interesting pieces about friendship. But in this case, I just love their connection. I love the sense of humor about it was just a really funny funny and touching piece about how much friendship can really mean to you and get you through hard times. And here's William Jackson harbor. There's like a. Commiseration misery. And like living in New York for me. Like sometimes that's the thing that is that I miss the most is that sometimes things just suck. And you look at that other person across the train having that same, sort of experience, like this sucks. Yeah. This also we all in this together and it just sucks. And, you know, like that, which I sort of I find really comforting. And it's also. There's something about how depression sneaks up on you. When I've had my moments, it's like just a cloud like the way describes his depression. Everything loses luster and food doesn't matter. You can't sleep is just sort of it for me. It's not even like a it's not an active like sadness. It's more just everything feels pointless. And sometimes in the midst of that, when you have a person that's also going through something that's similar. There's something about the relationships forged in those times, which feel like they can be really lasting so specific and felt like, oh, no. I I I've been that guy. I know that guy. Thanks again, to William for reading this week's piece you can see him on NBC's, the good place, which is back this fall. Modern love is a production of the New York Times and WB. You are Boston's NPR station. It's produced directed and edited by Caitlyn O'Keefe original scoring and sound design by Matt read. Iris Adler is our executive producer. Daniel Jones is the editor of modern love for the New York Times and adviser to the show special thanks to Samantha Hennig on your streaming and mealy at the New York Times the idea for the modern love podcast was conceived by the Tobin the digital music, courtesy of APO magnitude wordy cenex week. Modern love supported by xfinity. Some things are hard to control like over caffeinated co workers other things are easy to control. Like you're in home wifi with xfinity, X fi, set wifi curfew, change your password, and create user profiles over the x fi app. Another reason why xfinity is simple easy. Awesome go online. Call one eight hundred xfinity or visit a store to learn more. Restrictions apply.

Nate Mark mcdevitt New York Times Boston Nate head depression New York City tennis Nate I Wilson abdominal pain NBC William Jackson Harper Chuck apple xfinity Termi bloating Chile
Liftoff 92: Apollo 9

Liftoff

42:14 min | 1 year ago

Liftoff 92: Apollo 9

"In March of nineteen sixty nine just three short months after Apollo eight's history-making trip around the moon. Apollo nine lifted off from the coast of Florida Fernan tiredly different type of mission. Apollo nine task was to test the lunar module in lower orbit flying, this strange new spacecraft that would be tasked with getting astronauts safely to and from the surface of the moon for the very first time. Apollo nine also included America's first to mand spacewalk opening the hatches of the command service module and the lunar module testing. But the hatches and Nasr's latest spacesuit, including the backpack there'd be used on the lunar surface. Remains fifteen fourteen thirteen twelve eleven ten nine. We have ignition sequence start six five four three two one zero all engines running commit. Lipped we have liftoff at eleven AM eastern standard time. We're marketing fiftieth anniversary of each crude Apollo flight starting today with Apollo nine. This episode is brought to you by express VPN and squish base. My name is Jason Snell. And I joined as always by my co host Stephen Hackett Jason how are you? Very good good to be back in an Apollo capsule. A guess who's the third if you have someone silent on your end of the call? Mike Hurley is our silent command module pilot can trust that guy. Now. Let's divan. Yeah. Let's do it. Apollo nine launched on March. Third nineteen sixty nine it was the second. Crude flight to use the full stack Saturn five the big big big big big rocket on board were two spacecraft. The command module named gummed her up and the lunar module named spider. The names came actually from how these two spacecraft look gumdrops when it was shipped to the Cape was in bright, colorful, plastic and they called it gumdrops. And as for spider have you have you seen the lunar module his name? It's good. It is it is this weird spindly thing. We're going to talk a lot more about the the limb later on it is one of the signature aspects of the entire Apollo program opponent, by the way, the first crew since and three who were actually allowed to name their spaceships, and you got gumdrops inspired her out of it. Remember Gus Grissom ruin the party when he named his capsule, Molly Brown after sinking the liberty bell seven capsule. Nasa didn't find that funny. So they took it away. But now here on Apollo nine the, astronauts, I guess have have done their time in naming detention and they can either craft again. All right, come drop. Good gum drop. Here's the crew speaking which who got to name these spacecraft on Apollo nine there were two veterans and one rookie. So the commander of Apollo nine. Was Jim mcdevitt who was an air force pilot. He served in Korea. He was both a fighter pilot and later a test pilot. He joined NASA in nineteen sixty two in. I believe he second round of new astronauts and was the command pilot of Gemini four and a little trivia, first Catholic in space. That's one Jim mcdevitt wins. Bama. Joe pilot was Dave Scott who is also an air force pilot and a test pilot and his background joined NASA in the next. Class nineteen sixty three class of astronauts and flew on Gemini, eight with Neil Armstrong and the allure module. Pilot was rusty Schweickart who was an air force pilot as well three air force gentlemen in this mission. And rusty Schweickart was also for a while a research scientist at the Massachusetts Institute of technology that is pretty cool. So it's definitely solid scientific background there. And like Scott joined NASA in nineteen sixty three but had not flown on one of the Gemini missions before while liftoff went smoothly. Vintage from the s forbe's propel it takes change the orbit of the space craft after the command service module swung around to dock with the lunar module's. Remember, they when they launched them. They're sort of out of order. They gotta swing around to pick it up the litter module at this point is still attached to the top of the rocket's upper stage. So they did a burn to correct the orbit. Yeah. It's tricky tricky when you got to space craft and you actually have to join them together when you're in. Space. This didn't actually affect Apollo nine. But if if the orbit had been wrong, it could have gotten them in if they were going to the moon out of alignment for that TI trans lunar injection, burn. And they're watching all of this as a dress rehearsal for going to the moon. So it's all stuff that they want to watch and test. We spoke about this last time, but there have been delays with the lunar module. So NASA had to kind of rearrange several of these Apollo missions. And once it was decided that Apollo eight would take the command service module around the moon. Dc Slayton aspects mcdevitt and Frank Borman of Apollo eight. Which mission they preferred Borman before the moon and mcdevitt, preferred flying the lunar module. Yeah. This is good management technique on the part of the excitement who you know. I try to think about being a manager of all of these hard-charging astronaut types, and ultimately being the person who decides who the first person to land on the moon is and that's tough job. And I think the way slate and played it was a combination of showing respect for his his pilots and also sort of letting the machine do the work like he tried to build the machine of how the backup crews and the primary crews worked so that in the end would kind of be the result of that system that. Ended up popping out who would be the first person to set foot on the moon, and rather than it be just kind of purely a favoritism more political decision of lecture going to pick the guy, and we'll see how that this this mission following on from Apollo eight actually led to that point. So you might say to yourself. Well, if I'm going to choose between Apollo eight Nepal of nine whether I get to be the first people to go around the moon, or I just kind of hang around in orbit and fly around with the lunar module. Why would you not choose Apollo eight? Apollo nine sounds totally INA 'climactic. There were ticket tape parades for Apollo eight. You probably could've guessed that there would have been sure. But from the perspective of the astronauts Apollo nine had a lot going for it. And the reason mcdevitt preferred the Apollo nine mission. His crew said they preferred it is because they felt like it was a more important mission in terms of laying the foundation for for a moon landing. Whereas. Apollo eight was going to get a lot of public attention. But wasn't testing the incredibly ambitious set of things that they were testing as Andrew shaken described it in his book man on the moon. It was a test pilots feast far more difficult ambitious and in some ways more dangerous than Apollo eight. All of this meant that the training for both Apollo eight and nine basically overlapped and while the ladder, put many hours of work into the limb simulator, the crews often worked in the CSM simulator, basically back to back, and as you know of if you've read any of the stuff or any of the movies. These simulators could cause problems pretty often breaking down delaying the schedule causing frustration at one point mcdevitt, apparently just told his wife that the mission just wasn't ever happening. But thankfully, that was just frustration and not the truth just a low point point in that. So by making these changes and by saying as I said earlier by saying, okay, you guys are gonna go on eight. And then crew your guys are going to go on nine. What that meant was that they changed the backup crews, and they put them in a different sequence than originally when it would have been mcdevitt, screw on eight and the other crew on nine and that meant the backup crews changed which meant the crews of Apollo eleven and twelve changed. And this is what I meant by sort of the machine ending up making it all work because the decision for mcdevitt to go and Apollo nine meant that Pete. Conrad would go in Apollo twelve and it meant that Neil Armstrong. Screw would go in Apollo eleven. And that is probably the clearest answer for. Why was it? Neil Armstrong is just sort of worked out that way when they made the change to Apollo eight and flipped the crews of eight and nine in a way Apollo nine sort of reminds me of Jim and mission. I think it's based on what you said earlier like from the perspective of test pilot. This isn't a credible mission. You get to be the first crew to fly new spacecraft and Jimmy. I was about that, right? Each Jimmy mission had some new ground to break with either new hardware or do processes fly higher than it's ever been before. Basically building the stepping stones to feature missions in. Nasa was never going to land on the moon without flying the limb. I so someone's got to do it. Yeah. Mcdevitt, definitely said at several points during this process, like we're not gonna we're not going to get through all the mission goals, but we're going to try to get as many of them as as we can. And I just spoiler. They got through all the goal. So they did they really kinda nailed it among the goal. So they were gonna put the lamb through a full range of operations that would be necessary to land on the moon returned safely to the command module, waiting lunar orbit. So as you said, Stephen you've got to get to orbit, and you've got to pull them out attached to the CSM, and then you have to be able to separate them and fly them around. And then bring them back. You have two different sets of engines on the lunar module that you have to fire. Apollo ten was. Going to take the limb within fifteen point six kilometers of the lunar surface. But Apollo nine was the one who had to run through every single task that the limb was going to perform exactly that's exactly right. They were going to basically do all the steps needed to make sure the lunar module. Could do what it needed to do? When was at the moon. So this this get started on the third day of the mission, Scott state and command module while his true crewmates traveled through the tunnel to the limb once they're in the hatches were closed the two spacecrafts separated. And the limbs decent thrusters were used to separate the limb from the CSM they flew separately for some nine hours before being rejoined now on day four they took it another level. They're supposed to be a two hour spacewalk and Eva by rusty Schweickart. But he got motion six basic which again as we said on our previous Apollo episode. They didn't. Don't understand because it weren't enough data points that a certain percentage of people just get motion sick and space. And that's just how it is. But so Schweiker got space a little bit. And the feeling was you know, if he's in that environmental suit, and he throws up bad, then it can be fatal. Yeah. It's extremely bad. So they put it off. And it looked like they might need to even cancel portions of the mission, which would have been bad the space balk that they that they put off what attested going from the lunar module back to the command module, the idea there was that if they couldn't talk for some reason, you could just transfer people from one to the other on the outside. So that would be a way to get what if we land on moon and come back, and then we for whatever reason can't get the docking to work. You get your space suits, and you float over to the other spacecraft, but they weren't able to test that instead he suited up with Nesta's again, this new life support backpack and open the hatch on the limb and floated outside while Scott used an older suit standing up with his upper. Body out of the CSM. So we saw this in Jim ni- too. It's like sort of upper torso UVA. That's the Isaiah is still counts the hatches open year in the suit. But during this Scott was supposed to document the event with video again first time we've had two crew outside but the camera he was using failed. Mcdevitt, basically gave his crew members five minutes to see the could get it working again. Right. It's a Scottish fiddling with the camera and Schweickart is floating in space with nothing to do at all which is incredibly rare. He talked about it afterward. Here's a little clip of an interview he gave later. I only got a few a few feet up the handrail when the movie camera that Dave Scott was using the film that jammed and so he said, hey, wait a minute. The camera just jammed and Jim mcdevitt over here said, okay, Dave. I'm going to give you five minutes to try and fix the camera and resi stay, right? Where we are. And so took five minutes, and I took five minutes time out, you know. And I just I just took the opportunity to say, okay, great. I'm up here in space. This is my five minutes to really let the experience come in as a human being not as an astronaut not thinking about what came next but just to say, I'm a human being up here in space. What is this all about and all of these really important questions kind of came fly? Flooding in unexpected mean like how did I get here? Not via Saturn five, but you know, the evolution of humanity and the invention of the machines that we've invested in and that combination of human beings and the machines have enabled us to begin moving out from the planet. And this is obviously just the beginning of that evolution of life out of planet earth into space, and all of that kind of came flooding in, you know, given that five minutes with nothing to do so being unemployed in that kind of environment is incredible. This liftoff is brought to you by express VPN. We can probably I'll just say to ourselves hold her hands up and say cybercrime is something that we think happens to other people. It's not going to happen to me who would want my data. Well, the bad news is stealing data from people like me, and you using public wifi is pretty simple. It's the simplest way for hackers to to make money, which is leaves us in a in a state, we should take care of. 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So if I'm in airport, or in a hotel, I can know that my almost if I'm doing on the internet is safe and sound and their apps are really good on the MAC just sits on your menu bar, and you can able it really quickly just a click, and then you're you're right to go. For less than seven dollars a month. You can get the same express VPN protection that I have if you've ever used public wifi. I want to keep the bad guys away from your data you need express VPN. So go to express VPN dot com slash liftoff. To learn more. Protect your online activity today and find out how you can get three months free at express VPN dot com slash liftoff. That's E X P R E S S VPN dot com slash lift off for three months free with a one year package. Our thanks to express VPN for their support of lift-off and all of relief fem. So the highlight of Apollo nine would really come on day five once again, Scott is left in drop while his crew members climb over to spider, they separate again and fly the Lander some one hundred thirteen miles away from the command service module the crew then turned the craft back around facing Scott's direction. And there's there's a great interaction between the crew members here that I wanna share with you. So. The sixty seven miles one one two feet per second. Okay. We have sixty seven miles at one zero seven features foul about that. They can be residual. You gotta shave that up really worldwide for nowadays. Good away, right? I doubt again, I just think was that up. For you've got contraption hanging over. Okay. I have is about three hundred seventy feet. Okay. Closer. That sports car handled him that. Already with VM. They all I'm here. The descent stage was jettisoned just as if the crew had landed on the moon. Remember, they leave a little part behind when because they don't need to take it back with them and that allow them to test the ascent stage motor. So again, a new engine that had not been fired in space yet. And this is the one that they used to fly back toward gum drop. Leaving the limb seventy five miles behind in ten miles below the CSM for a rendezvous that would take place a few hours later after docking. The essence stage was jettisoned a committed to fire its engine to deplete all the fuel. It actually marked the first time. A crude test vehicle would be left behind to reenter and burn up on its own. Yeah. That's really interesting. The idea that the first time that there's something that people were in that they're like we don't need that anymore. We've discarded the spacecraft it can just burn up. Well, the the limb was not designed for flight in the atmosphere was not going reenter. That's yeah. We'll talk more about the limb later, that's one of the things. That's fascinating about it is it is a spaceship. It is not meant to be used anywhere. But in vacuum, which is pretty amazing. There wasn't drama on the mission. How how could there not be? There were some concerns about what one of the readings from a helium tank onboard. The limb this is dramatized in the spider EPA. Code of from the earth to the moon, and the the people at grummin who built the lamb or like, an ultimately, they're confident about it. It's good ship. It's going to be fine. It was it was high pressure, but within the acceptable range, and they said it's going to be fine. And it was fine. Didn't lead to any problems with the limbs thrusters when they were orbiting this worked and this all meant that Apollo nine had carried out its main objective proving that the lunar module was a viable space craft and ready to go to the moon. We did it wou-. It's fine. It is. I mean, a huge amount of testing, and they tested it and it worked and the other thing is I mean, keeping in mind, I spacecraft of its kind first off the line for this thing that in terms of going into space. I think it was I think it was the third one they made. But it was the first one that was going to people in it that it was going to go work at all. And they put it through its paces, and it all worked now that said the crew had other stuff to do while they were in orbit. The job is never done. They were to teach. V broadcasts made earth from Apollo nine. The first was on March fifth that lasted for about seven minutes. There was a second broadcast the next day about thirteen minutes, and that one showed interior views of the lunar module. It seems to me that NASA. Maybe dialed back after previous crew at complained of how much time energy these took. But part of me thinks to that after Apolo, wait, maybe they were afraid of tension waning a little bit. So they shortened no, not really sure what went to the decision, but it's pretty different from other missions in this regard, and again Apollo it was a very dramatic mission in a way that was not. They're doing test test light reading Genesis one Christmas Eve coming around the moon is like the high point on then you're flying around a little spacecraft, and you know, like, yeah. To do people care as much maybe not. Maybe that was a good move. They did test. Something called crewmen optical alignment site c o a s which is really interesting used to test. How far you could see stuff in space. This is interesting 'cause we talked about going out one hundred miles and then coming back, it's like one hundred miles that's really far, but with they tested, and they were actually able to spot a Pegasus to satellite that was one thousand miles away. So they're learning a little bit about. Like, how far can you spot an object in space as an astronaut looking out the window, and that's what C O S tested, and the answer was they could see that satellite. That was a thousand miles away after everything was done the crew splashdown about three miles from their recovery. Ship on March thirteenth little trivia. This was actually the last Apollo capsule to splash down in the Atlantic. Ocean. Gumdrops is now on display at the San Diego air and Space Museum. Yeah. Go to Balboa park and check it out. It's their gumdrops. You can see it right there in San Diego, all the astronauts from this mission as of our recording in two thousand nineteen are still alive. Mcdevitt, became the manager of lunar landing operations, and then the manager of the Apollo spacecraft program. He was the program manager for Apollo missions twelve through sixteen pretty pretty cool. He left NASA in nineteen seventy two to enter corporate life and ended up being these senior vice president at Rockwell a major aerospace company for fourteen years day, Scott. What was the backup commander of Apollo eleven? As was his right. And that meant he was the commander of Apollo fifteen. So check back in July of twenty twenty one. And we'll talk about data Scott. Yeah. Stay tuned to the little little just more politicians to come. He ended up as they head of NASA Dryden flight research center in the mid seventies later was the president of his own consulting company. He was an adviser on Apollo thirteen and the HBO mini series from the earth to the moon that I mentioned earlier. So in his later years, he became a consultant about the space program, which is pretty cool. And then rusty Schweickart stated NASA for a while worked on the Skylab project went to DC and worked at NASA headquarters in seventy four and left NASA in nineteen seventy seven interesting thing about Schweiker. He was not particularly comfortable in the NASA culture. He and his wife were both politically liberal and active in the civil rights movement among others and NASA. Especially in the sixties and seventies was a very conservative culture. And so he was referred to as I think the freak astronaut at one point, which I think meant that they thought he was kind of a hippy only in terms of astronauts would rusty Schweickart. I think the candidate hippie. But like, oh, his flattop is slightly longer than the others. But anyway, he it's interesting that he and his wife were not as comfortable in the NASA culture, he ended up working for Jerry Brown in California government in the seventies for seven years, and then later went on and worked in the telecommunications industry. So we've mentioned this. But it Apollo nine. It seems like it's overlooked seems like it's forgotten when thinking about the journey to the moon lives in the shadow of Apollo wait perhaps, and I can understand that. But after prepping for this and reading a lot about it. And watching a bunch of interviews and documentaries like this was a hugely important deal. It's true that this was not as much of a crowd pleaser like Holloway. But it was you know, as we said earlier on more professionally fulfilling, maybe it's a mission that only astronauts, truly appreciate, but they really did kill it. They nailed all of their mission requirements. They cleared up all doubt. About whether the limb was going to be a suitable spacecraft, which I think all the astronauts who saw were very skeptical of this weird thing that looked nothing like anything that they'd seen in the space program up to this point. You could make an argument that up to this point, this is the most successful Apollo mission. And maybe the most successful space mission that NASA had done to this point. They got everything right. They cleared off up every question about the limb. And the since I get from reading reports about this era is that when Apollo nine came back. Everybody knew that the moon landing was going to happen with eleven everybody knew they had to do one more test with ten in fact, I read through this. And we'll talk about this with Apollo ten. I through this and thought I'm a little surprised that NASA didn't just say, let's just land on politics. Let's just do it. Why are we even why why even wait a mission because after Apollo nine I think everybody knew it was going to happen because they had all the pieces now. I think you're totally right. It's deserves all the praise we can give especially like when you factor in. They were worried about space sickness and they overcame that. And still the VA, and that was modified like they got everything done under some, you know, some pretty rough circumstances healthwise and just a lot of this was a chock full mission. And they checked every box, and it's really cool. This episode of lift-off is brought to you in part by squarespace makes make your next move with squarespace course base. Let's you easily create a website for whatever your next idea is you can get a unique domain you can use their award winning templates so much more. So whether you want to create an online store and sell stuff on the internet. You can create a portfolio you can set up a blog blogging, his fun. I do that you do that. Stephen, we, you know, blogging you can do that with squarespace. It's an all in one platform. No matter what you wanna do you do it with squarespace and best of all there's nothing to install. No software patches. No security updates anything like that. They take care of all of that. 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Apollo nine was where the lunar module got tested. But the fact is every Apollo mission from here on out has a lunar module. And we haven't really talked about the lunar module itself. So maybe we should talk about. That. Sounds good to me. It's a vital piece to all of this. Yeah. You need one you need one. So do I mean you can't like again Apollo eight. Otherwise, you call it a day. Right. Like, hey, we went to the moon wave. Hello moon. And then you come home the real question. Here's how you land on the moon that like the big philosophical question. How do you land on the moon with people? And then how do you get them back off and back to earth and early on in the planning stages of Apollo many people within NASA most prominently of on Brown, the rocket scientists from Germany who had come to America after World War Two. And when he was working in Germany, he was already pumping up the idea of taking sending people to the moon, and tomorrow's and all of that. And he was a rocket guy. And he was like big rocket shoot. To the moon. That's what we do. However, there were some other people who swam against the title little bit and most notably an engineer named John huddled who became a strong believer in concept called lunar orbit rendezvous, which means you take two spacecraft to the moon. One orbits the other one goes down to the surface. And then lifts back off and reattach is to the other spacecraft. And that was it was a radical idea. Yeah. Who's the hippie now? No kidding. How old I mean, clearly risky to spacecraft. You have to rendezvous yet. Do all these things and this point member hadn't been done. Yeah. Mercury was the murky program was barely up and running at this point. Right, Jim, and I was still a ways off, but he was insistent about the idea so much. So that he wrote a letter to NASA brass like skipping over several managers, you know, several years of bureaucracy. But it worked he landed a meeting and in that meeting he convinced them that it was it was decided that this lunar orbit rendezvous idea was the right way to go. Yeah. My impression is that. He planted a seed and everybody's like, okay, dude, whatever. And then like as time went on it just that idea never went away. And once it was in the marketplace of ideas it won like the whole challenge was just breaking. Out of the idea of direct lunar insertion or earth orbit rendezvous where you shoot a multiple spacecraft up in earth orbit and attach them and then fly to the moon, which were both under discussion once L O R came into the picture, and they started thinking about it. They realize the costs of building a little spacecraft that only needed to land on the moon were it was so much better in so many different ways. And so there we go in the fall of nineteen sixty two they NASA took bids for the lunar excursion module, which is what it was called at the time later, they dropped the excursion because I think they felt like that would be like taking a Sunday drive a little excursion to the moon bring a picnic lunch. But it was learning excursion module. L EM was very obviously called the limb. And that's why even though it's the L AM everybody pronounced it limb not lung or limb or whatever it was always the limb, and it was the winner was Grumman company on Long Island. They had been studying the whole thing already and working on lunar orbit rendezvous concepts and they won the contract in November of sixty two. They had a very detailed design already with an asset. Andy sent stage president in those early designs. They were really on top of it. They had an idea of how you make a lunar Lander. And then they spent the next five years building a lunar modules basically figuring out how to build them. They were all out of custom parts, and and they built them, of course, that initial design would change over time. And again from the earth to the moon shows a lot of this. There's a little like time lapse as they as they move move things on and off of a little model because they're like how about this. Nope. That's. It's not gonna work. How about this? Great. It's a great scene. Wait was a huge concern here. So that lead to things like smaller windows. The limb doesn't have any seats in it. You don't need to see. There was even a version without a ladder. Turns out you need a ladder to get in and out easily. So they they ditched this rope and pull back to the ladder. But even basic things like the shape of the hatch had to be reworked. Remember their building this as the program is evolving in parallel across different space centers across different sub programs and like the first half of the nineteen sixties is just lots and lots of design then redesign work overactive. Right. They changed backpack. We mentioned the suit that the astronauts had to test that was going to go the untethered self contained suits. So you could do a moonwalk and it ended up with a square backpack. And at one point in the process gremlin had to change their around hatches into square hatches. So that you could get out with the back. Pack, and that was just a thing that they they had to do. There's so many little things the standing is amazing. I hadn't really thought about it. But like one of the reasons that that they stand is not just to save money on chairs, but and you're in light gravity. You can just float and stuff, but it's also to save money on windows because and wait on windows because if you're standing you you can build a window in the little area where they can see out, and then that's it. And then you don't have to have a huge window right with a kind of a moonscape around you. And so it's not as pretty looking spacecraft but much more functional able to be built within the budget. Insolation was a big problem to grummin had to protect the craft from these extreme temperature swings in space, and they use layers of Mylar I new material which is if you think about it that smilar is like what you get in like a helium balloon for up like a birthday party super thin balloon material, and they coded almost every surface with Mylar and layers. Mylar depending on on where it was and how much insulation at needed the many layers of Mylar, but it made it look that's the tin foil. Look the gold foil. Look, you get is if you think about the thin Mylar surface of like a a balloon. They would just there were layers of that which meant that the limb was very light. And and which was fine because it was actually in in almo-, very light, not light gravity. Right. Yeah. -solutely? So we get the spring of nineteen sixty five and NASA, freezes the design we have this unusual looking spacecraft. But it's it's biter. It's perfectly designed to land of the moon era. Dynamics are not a concern. He heavy heat shields. Not a concern. You have what you need and really nothing else. Yeah. It's never going to see atmosphere. That's not what it's four. So. Yeah. The top half of Elim was called the assets stage. The contains the crew cabin the flight controls and Eva hatch on the. Side with the hatch at the top to be used when connected to the command module. So you can go back and forth between the two modules. The assets stage was responsible for getting the crew from the surface back to lunar orbit. So it's the part that would blast off from the lunar surface and go back up and Ron do with the CSM said, wait, wait is the concern here. So they they've stripped things out they don't need. And you think well the new seats where did they sleep some of these later Apollo missions were on the moon long enough where they had rest periods. And and you may think well did they have like a bed and the wall. No, no, no. They have a set of hammocks that they hung across the tiny cabin like when I say tiny. I mean, it the crew cabin two point three meters tall and about a meter across a very cramped space. Yeah. Incredibly incredibly small now, the descent stage, perhaps more recognizable. It's got the landing legs wrapped in Mylar. Again, three of the four foot. Pads come with a one hundred seventy centimeter contact sensor probe. You can see this in some of the pictures from Apollo nine like, it's not just like the pads at the end of the feet. And there are these like things that stick out, and the idea there is that when you're getting close to the surface, the they're gonna hit first and make contact and there's a contact light that the pilot sees, and they know at that point that they can cut the thrusters and dropped the lunar service. So that's why they had those things there. There were storage Cubbies in the descent stage for equipment like cameras geological, tools and later, that's where they tucked the lunar Rover as well was down in the descent stage. I can't wait to talk about the river. It may be my band, Apollo hardware. Yeah. I was looking up. The space stuff as you do, you know, the left up podcast, and I found the spoil it, but I found the person who holds the record for longest longest distance driven in space a good record. Yeah. Check back in sometime in the future. We'll we'll get to the river. Eventually. So you go to the moon. You disconnect from the CSM you go down you make contact you land the limb on the surface of the moon. You get out you get some rocks. You power slide in the lunar Rover for a while. But when it's time to go, then you go back in the limb. And this is where the descent stage essence stage where the that difference lies. So the since age again with its four legs serves as the launch pad for the essence stage. So that means that they're actually six to since stages still on the surface of the moon. You know, they landed and they they don't go anywhere there. They are still there many ascent stages reentered earth's atmosphere or crashed into the moon after lunar orbit rendezvous to ensure they'd be out of the way future missions. So this is a this is a disposable spacecraft. If you will. Only the Apollo ten lunar module. The ascent module is still in space. It's in the heliocentric orbit all in all criminal twenty two or so lunar modules the exact numbers a little fuzzy I read a couple of conflicting things, but about twenty two those that weren't flown or on display in museums around the world I've seen a couple of them, and it is a sight to behold. So as Grumman was starting building and testing units it built a motor testing facility in white sands, New Mexico and this program had several I if its own the descent engine took the lunar module from the command service module in lunar orbit down to surface. It was the first rocket built with a throttle and the so that's what you know. Neil armstrong. And I man let's say right there. He's he's got throttle control over the rocket as he's coming down. The Asan engine took the upper half of the lamb from the surface all the way back up to lunar orbit. There was no failsafe. This motor if it failed. The astronauts would be stuck on the moon. Not good. It used hyper Golic propellant whose components lit on contact with each other no pumps or neither. You basically open the hatches the fuel and the oxidizer will connect and ignite. They were extremely toxic and corrosive. So the flight Motors could never be fired because that would be the end of that engine. It was a single use about your disposable spacecraft. It was really a a single use kind of thing. So to train for this astronauts used this insane rig, and there's you could see this. It's like really unstable Neil Armstrong almost died flying it, and then they moved to training in like an endorse later with an I love this lunar movies of the lunar surface playing out the window. So you can get a feel for what you doing little by. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. I now initially the land was going to be part of an uncrowned test on Apollo four. For that was one of those early limbs, but Nasr's testing showed huge issues with a vehicle fuel leaks, wiring problems and so- Apollo for left earth without any limb on board. There was more testing. They blew a window out when the land was pressurized at one point is that good, you know, the early days. It was stressful of Bill than building this NASA gave groman strict instructions about debris in the spacecraft to avoid such incidents. Even though a definitive cause was never found. Apollo five. Which was spoken about did take an uncrowned kind of unfinished limb to space but Apollo nine again where this vehicle where it got tested and later in nineteen sixty nine the first one touchdown to the moon is part of Apollo eleven and then made history we're gonna talk about that particular spacecraft soon. And of course, not to be forgotten the lunar module that saved the lives of the Apollo thirteen crew on the fiftieth anniversary of that mission. Right. And in may. We will talk about a particular group of Apollo astronauts in our next special Apollo episode who took the lunar module out for a spin and we're sorely tempted to land on the moon, but we're not supposed to do that. So they did not supposed to do it. Yes. We will get to that soon. In the meantime, if you want to learn more read more watch more about Apollo nine we've collected some resources in the show notes, you can find those at relay dot FM slash liftoff slash ninety two while you're there, you can drop us an Email inbetween are episodes we link stories and things on our tumbler there's a link to that on the sidebars, well or you can find us and follow us on Twitter. Jason is there as j Snell, and you can find me there as I s m h until our next four night. Jason say goodbye goodbye. Everybody on.

Apollo Nasa Jim mcdevitt Apollo Dave Scott CSM Apollo rusty Schweickart Neil Armstrong Stephen Hackett squarespace Nasr commander Jason Snell Gus Grissom Molly Brown Eva hatch Jim America
Part 2:Sid Fernando

Thoroughbred Racing Radio Network

1:16:17 hr | 7 months ago

Part 2:Sid Fernando

"Steve how you doing. I'll tell ya neck. What's the saying you better? You better have led underwear on I. It it's yesterday was yesterday was rough. GotTa tell you a lot of ways. It seems like we're getting that way Each day and and and to an extent but This is certainly been. There's been a lot of different things going on of course but obviously the challenges presented by what the world is facing with. The pandemic is enough for anybody to deal with it time and sort of seems like we're seeing now. Those the virus cases affect people famous people non famous people All the same. It certainly knows. No it doesn't discriminate and And IT'S GETTING. It's getting very taxing. I've I've tried to to look at as many mental exercise type of things as I can to to get away from reading about it too much getting down about it too much and I mean that's why I'm very grateful for the places that are still running and really Admire the humans that are involved in in getting the horses prepared and and you know the gate crews and the starter and everybody. That's doing any kind of work still remaining at the race track Because I mean it's just something that gives us a feel of it. It's a reminder that not everything is bad at the at the given time even though there's a lot going on that we're probably not terribly happy about so I'm being tapped somewhat tangential but it is a nice thing and I'm a pretty positive guy to begin with so I try to some people that follow me on twitter may think otherwise but I think that's all out so otherwise guy but Trying to look on the bright side of things as much as possible now. Of course yesterday are distraction was going to be the founder Park Force out. And you know there's certain parts of adjusting to a specific and will rogers when it comes to ovals that people are not and circuits. That people may not be particularly in tune with and and one of the things that came up. And then we'll we'll we're GONNA talk about the Tampa Pick five carryover in a minute. But let's review yesterday. And obviously it starts with the and the five eighths oval and I you know I asked you about the figure making a funner when you did it for you. Know the handful of years and you do a lot of the you know what are known as the tracks the smaller tracks and the five eighths definitely entered into this. And there's a lot of hurly-burly anarchy argued that goes on with these horses and don't forget we're also talking about you know some some. These are nickel climbers. And guys that are you know. They're not that they're not competent. Jocks but you know. There's there's going to be some things out there that you know that are going to invite criticism and we all get that. What was your view of what went on. And how surprised that they. They took down the winter. You Know I. It's all things that you said obviously are accurate in terms of how Different items differ when it comes to the five ace oval and trying to get position in which riders are are looking to do it a little more aggressively than others and so on and so forth. You know that that foul a lot like the one on Saturday at oaklawn is mainly. It's it's it's sort of determined by the stewards to be severe because they're paying much more attention to the jockey and the flailing and machinations of the writer than they are the actual items that should go into making a determination. And you know I. It seems to me like the eventually of course it was placed. I too was going for a spot that didn't exist. And obviously if you're looking to you know at the same time that a horse in behind goes for a spot there is the horse in front does have the ability. That writer has the ability to try and narrow that spot. There's nothing wrong with that. There's that's not an infraction especially when that other horses had might just be getting to the to the lead horses flank and and if you look at it that way then I think it would be very hard to make a change in the situation that we saw yesterday but if you pay too much attention to the fact that I mean the writer on the to practically came out of the satellite check so hard and I think he embellishes a little bit too in order to to try and sell it. And that's what ended up winning over the stewards so I thought it was a call that you're not supposed to make. I felt like the best horse crossed the wire first and You know it. It lends itself to. I mean for all the things he's done since he's come back from Hong Kong Pat Cummings has gotten us to have a conversation about category one and and I tell him frequently that it's very easy to bang drum that we need to go to a category one type of stewarding and ultimately I think we do need to certainly adopt a a strategy that doesn't really concern itself with horses being cost a placing and really trying to focus more on whether they would've won and things like that but we have to overhaul stewarding from top to bottom in this country and the fact that now this is the third time and of course everything is under the microscope right now because there are so few tracks running but no you Friday afternoon at Gulfstream yet marquette exhorts trying to come up the inside on non Candy Machine and Candy Machines Jockey Tyler. Leone shut the door. And and that horse orifice had to steady sharply. Come around the outside. Looked like he probably probably would have won the race if he had gotten a clean run through but he also went for spot that didn't exist and those stewart ended up deciding. There was no change that on Saturday at oaklawn. We had this. What I thought was was a pretty terrible disqualification of the the winner of the eighth race Who won clear and basically got disqualified because the writer on the eventual fifth place. Finisher wasn't able to get fourth and then yesterday you have another one where I it's a you know. It's a questionable decision at best Probably a poor decision. In my opinion because that's second-place eventual winner via disqualification vacation was going for a spot that didn't exist. So what this all underscores is that. We have no standard and we. We have nothing I it. It shouldn't be that difficult. And you know even with the help of some broadcasters when you think about major sports like the NFL and the NBA and Major League Baseball when we start looking at replay. Even if you mute the sound you-know-what decision is going to be made right. It's and yes it's a tad more black and white than racing is but we need to get more black and white on that. I mean it needs to be understood what is acceptable. What's not what should be disqualification. I shouldn't find myself telling people in a not be or in in the Jockey Club. Sam Houston while those stewards generally don't disqualify for that because it shouldn't boil down to that we should know what to disqualification across the country because there has to be just a little bit more uniformity and I hope that Obviously once we we get past all that's going on right now and we can get ourselves to a position where racing can can start to move forward again. And that's something that really strongly considered because I mean look. It's IT'S A had. Somebody argue with me about this on twitter last week and I said that that the the betters are the ones that pay of course the vendors are the ones that pay if you bet on horse that was based like he did last week at Oaklawn or like you did yesterday at Finer. And you've got disqualified that sucks. It's hard and it's hard to come back from that. It's hard to figure. Oh my God Mardi up against oppressive takeout up against God only knows what in terms of medication and now I gotta worry about. Three people sitting high atop the grants. That might try and find a way to keep me from winning. You know all of a sudden things start to mount. Well well said Nick. Well done and You know then. There's the matter of the horses that you either used or didn't use in this sequence and Taylor's prints there's been quite a few people that came come back and said that that they that they played hall and Fackler and Taylor's Princeton. That spot I to me about you know The fifth sixth or seven. He had to improve. He had to improve and he was on route to running a career. There's no doubt about that for him to you. Know run a good second in there and to his credit by the way fackler persevered and finished second in a year. And you know you had Chris Place and and you know that Otani who we we did all we could to warn that Otani was up against it in that spot and in fact there was a couple of in terms of the analysis and the way we approach this thing yesterday. I thought we really warded off a couple of horses that were were bad. Favorites including that honey hearts was nowhere in the feature. But Taylor's prints if you had Taylor's prints on your ticket that was ambitious and well done Then things got chalky for the next two legs. And you know that that El Diablo grant I gotta give him credit and Martinez because you know made it to the lead. And that was the only way he was going to win. It was and I was very surprised at how much money he took. It was almost like they knew the race. What they really did know there. I guess it's probably the first time we find ourselves talking about sharp money at fodder but with all due respect honor. I'm sure sharp money but wise guys probably don't like to dole out that many compliments But that was a little surprising and then of course we talked everybody off as much as we could and I think he ended up going off. Slide second choice but the the nine a nightcap who felt like he was totally out posted and and was going to be in a really tough spot the pay scenario so yeah. I mean it played out. It was odd in that. I really don't think that That Indian roses who you Astutely pointed out as well yesterday. I don't think that Indian roses played like an eighteen to one shot in in the picks Or whatever he played whatever he PA- He paid thirty eight dollars right. Yes thirty eight. Eighty was that made the night right. Yeah exactly and I don't think he played like that because this is a scenario where you know you're talking about a even though the positive expectation was gone. It was a little odd that this was a sequence where it didn't even pay the parley. So and yeah I understand. Maybe everybody Kinda zeroed in on El Diablo. Guerande indoor ship soccer Figuring the chip soccer was probably to type of race but It still didn't it. Didn't make sense that he paid that much in the wind pool. So you know the I. It's it's kind of this odd convergence yesterday of recreational money from people that play the races here and there to probably a little bit more than that because there's a number of people just sitting at home doing nothing but looking at things like Fonterra Park and then of course the w betting that obviously is now a big pool And I guess they didn't like Indian roses so that's that's part of the reason why his price drifted up so much. Because you did see some some nice laid odds fluctuations which are to be expected of course but Even cy pool sizes this big. It can certainly have a pretty big impact and boy. I'll tell you I didn't see I don't know if I can tell you what the total handle is on the car. But it had to be huge. They were doing four or five hundred thousand a race bad various points during the day. Seven point two million. Wow that's great good for them. Good for them. You had something positive coming of a really awful scenario and Man It's nice to see I remember Kristie to let calling the racist at Louisiana downs. That was my first first experience with him longtime ago. My parents took me to Louisiana down from one thousand nine hundred eighty four. We lived in Dallas and then he he was the race color there so that was a net places going strong by. I hope I hope racetracks like this certainly get back to. At least running let alone some level of prominence but it is nice nice to have seen fodder have a little moment in the sun and same for will rogers who's been doing four million plus a day and those statistics. Those numbers are just outstanding. Well and a couple of other notes within the sequence that mid point ship Stalker. I gotTA give Louis Rodriguez a lot of credit. He rode ship Stalker like he absolutely was loaded. All the way around and commander McDevitt for those that remember. I was at University of Arizona at the symposium three years ago and I went to There's that good Chicago The joint that makes Italian beef and Nice Pizza. That's right right on foothills and I go in there. And there's an older gentleman and he. He's getting the pizza and head out and What is that call it? What is the name? I WANNA see. Dino's I think it's Dino and Dino said to me you know who that was I said who was. Jim mcdavid Jim. Mcdevitt the astronaut. So I ran out to the parking lot and got a picture with John McDevitt so when I came across this heavy caffeine the other night I said wow commander McDevitt I love it and I use them as the value and I tell you. He looked like a winner Turning for home and ship Stalker Rigas in basically nails him couple strides from the wire Indian roses. We told you third off the layoff I that's in Mitchell and looked like he was circling back and that if he was going to get back to a good race you noted Chubs charmer and this was a very good set of exotics in the feature and sure enough. Honey hearts lasted about four and a half furlongs. I mean when you see awards that can't get past five. That's you know that that's a play against then really. The public did not buy into that morning. Line on on honey hearts. I mean she ended up going off it at almost five to one. I think she was fourth choice. And then you gave everybody access to frankly fun. Who took some money ended up at six to One? Yeah he was ten to one with a couple of minutes to post I started to notice he was taking a little bit of action late. And I think we discussed trying to get to the three four nine if you were able to be a little crafty with super effective and maybe throw in all in the in the third spot than it paid. Well pay two hundred and thirty some dollars for a dime and was away for some weary players maybe to get out after an afternoon of action so I ended up ended up being a a a nice finish to it and and Commander McDevitt as you mentioned a lot like frankly More more southern frankly fun. Good Winter Sam. Houston won a race at thirteen to one for JR Caldwell before getting claimed and You know it was another one of those horses that like like the types that we touched on. Yesterday that had been decent form and wasn't that far removed from his good form. And I think that's one of the things when you're looking at these because obviously I mean we encourage everybody to keep playing fighter and will rogers and then anywhere else. That's running but if you're looking at these races you just want to be a little bit more forgiving about how these horses are performing on a regular basis and try and read between the lines as much as possible to see Maybe what what what they're doing in terms of getting a little bit better and trying to spot a potential move forward before it seems visible to everybody else. Eighty four hundred and change At congratulations to those that got through it. They'll be another one at the end of the meat. Don't often reach Half a million But we'll see and It was absolutely worth handicapping worth trying and even if you got nine. I got knocked out in the first leg. Nick you got knocked out right. I mean on the first one but we kept pitching you made it to the nightcap and and you cashed the horse that you know that you thought was the interesting price and frankly and the same with Indian Roses. So you know you. You can't let a decision like the one that started the thing. You can't let it throw you you you shrug it off and know that you'll get them down the road and as I said on Monday I put up with with the fierce for real money and then I got thinking down here so it takes a chunk out of the Finnick money out of the triple that hit with Finnick the fierce. I just this is out of our control. So you know you can kick the cat a couple of times We got four to choose from here so I you know take turns. I don't try to kick one cat too many times in a row and try to kick a different cat. Let's turn complex or anything like that. Well the lucky lucky is usually the candidate because he is. He is the devil in disguise that stirred the Tampa eighty. One thousand a pick five carryover it starts with the fourth. I had Kent swayze on yesterday. Who is pulling all the strings right now. Probably got more of a chance with finest jewel and he does in the nightcap with screen image. But let's get into this. It's a sixteen non to phillies and mayor's going along on the Turf Earth. He's low level claiming races on the tariff. I think that the class lines blur a little bit but I I will say that. A horse like a noble intentions coming over from Gulfstream. Looking at the horses that she's most recently been running against in the fact that. I thought that her trip last time was a little bit less than ideal. She kind of stood out to me as a horse that you maybe didn't want to lean on as a single but this is the super tough sequence in terms of how deep you need to go in really in the fifth and sixth races and so. I can see people leaning noble intentions. A Little Bit Centennial. Getting on As obviously a positive and though she was dismissed of course fifty nine to one last time I mean it top to bottom. That was a field quite a bit tougher than what she's GonNa meet here and in looking for an alternative. I mean I I I stopped. Of course it took a long look at the replay of the race. That business beauty in Sonoma. Sonoma me come out of and I mean the two. I'd I'd probably rather the ladder It given that I felt like she knew she knew me was probably a little too close to a hot pace and is a horse that needs to lay back and make one run. But there's also some some question at this point in time about whether the sources even attor force you know getting a low to mid sixties fire on the turf and and running competitively against twenty five onto life claiming competition prior. I mean that was encouraging of course and so that that would lead you to believe she's capable of doing it but doesn't inspire a whole lot of confidence and And it did make me WANNA probably focus a little bit more on a horse like noble intentions finest. You'll you mentioned was a little close to a high pace last time too. She she not my choice. I mean putting the blinkers on. Probably help can sweet. He's obviously very very well right now. You'll probably want to include her. Maybe at least as a as a backup Unless you have maybe a stronger opinion The interesting thing to me about this racist that it feels like the pace is pretty much. All centered towards the outside And and or it can be found towards the outside As it seems like I on the finishing Princess Brienne to some extent. Have to show some speed. And then you'd like to think that that finest you'll with blinkers going on having been close to pace last time it was gonNA show speed as well so I mean I think it should be an honestly run race and that should certainly set things up for horses like the three four and five when push comes to shove. The three likes winners. I went five. Four nine and You know then. The three a little bit Maybe even maybe even a little seven but I Agree Michael Lerman with noble intentions. Ninety to even get you even get a little bit of a of a value over Shimmy but noble attentions absolutely in a and. And then you know shouldn't do me a B and then some sees probably after that second leg is a ten claim. Going seven eighths on the main track. these are Phillies And I think there's a coup- yeah there's a couple of there is a mirror to here As well I mean you've got some offers in here. There's definitely some of the mirror reference. There are They're they're racking up quite a number of seats I mean you know the Horse to beat has gone as a girl can get who now shortens up to seven eighths after going a mile and forty. Last time she set a strong pace at least according to the US and and really stayed in there the whole way clearly improved Santana first time and but now his burn money twice in a row beating four times in a row at at three two one or less those things are obviously not encouraging but man. She may have found her friends in here. This is a hungry bonds and there are a lot of forces in here. They're tough to even look at let alone. Put your money down on now. I'll say that of course like Langley. The four who I thought ran well last time and ended up getting a pretty decent trip tracking towards the inside before making late. Move and coming up short so for eleven now worth noting of course that she has it seems like she's improved and probably gotten to her best form since moving to to the barn of Monica mcgaughey. So there's There's something to be said for that. And then you know looking towards the outside Mighty Electric Katie. Felina are both horses. That are capable of winning this race in my opinion now. Mighty Electric. I think rent a much better race in. It looks last time in setting that fast paced before tiring late. That was clearly a a race where she was supposed to improve dropping specially ranks to to maiden ten stays at that level. And she's probably going to get that nice outside stocking trip so I thought there was something to be said for using her and Katie. Flu caused a lot of trouble last time and ended up getting disqualified for For some of what he did on the backstretch she's a one run closer clearly benefit. If there's a little bit of pace I felt like the winner would come from those four. It's IT'S A it's a hold your nose and use for for me. I don't really have. I was looking for one of the lightly racehorses that maybe had something a little bit clever but I mean if you believe that a horse like shirl is going to improve off of just a total non effort on debut when she was fifty to one or lack of Tara. Who's been horrendous in two starts? I mean you're you're seeing something I don't I I I would. I would not though spend a great amount of time fighting with anybody about anyone. They liken this race. Yeah this is this thing is. This is a dog's breakfast if there ever was one And I'm glad you brought up Katie falloon of because that that race on turf to back. He's got kind of that. Look that you know might might come back forward That that could get it done. Mighty electrica is is mild. Leave mildly interesting third off. The layoff ear showed speed last time. When when moved from turf the dirt the route to sprint A maiden special twenty down to maiden ten Leeann little interest the mighty electric may be. I don't know so bad as as as I've written for years bad bunch of coconuts In the fifth let's look at the sixteen claiming sex. It's a mile on the grass. Yeah this is. This is a really fun race. And this is the most interesting race in the field or in in the sequence to me by far And I think the The morning line is pretty accurate. For the most part I think monkey mind will probably end up going off the favorite. Although it's pretty tough to argue with anybody who wants to tell me that they think barrel of destiny. I'll go off favored and It's it's pretty. It's notable that if you and this is with all due respect of course to John Hurdler George Weaver. It's notable that it seems like barrel destinies best performances over the course of the last couple years of all come for Anthony Granitz and I think that that's probably a positive sign Especially now that she's taking a drop in class and this is a horse that you know somebody who's who's somewhat enterprising might be willing to take her for sixteen thousand dollars. Of course we don't really know where there's going to be any racing in a month or so but in New York bread with some conditions She's got something did. There's there's a few things to like and So I think that you could. You could find yourself really using her You should use her. I think especially because it feels like there's GonNa be some pace in here. It's a gimmes girl. A monkey mind to an extent show speed. It felt like there were a couple of other candidates that could at least forced the issue and that should set the table. I think for a late runner so I. It was mainly live destiny. Monkey mind for me. I also wanted to find a way to use better yet. Who those ground and saving a lot of ground at. Tampon TURF is very very important. We talk about this all the time but That was a class drop. Last time. She saved a lot of ground. They just didn't come back to her. And if you watch that replay you realize okay. This was kind of a merry go round. It's gimmes girl and she's dynamite. We're in the midst entire way. Nobody really made a move from off the pace whatsoever except for better yet so I think in more honestly run race. She can get a better setup and And that might be enough to make the difference and I think if you take that approach if you also get a little bit of an assist from from CC. Lopez on. I dream of Lois. That things can get a little bit quicker and that would help better yet even more so For me it's it's mainly going to be four five eight and I'll use it to gimmes girl a backup and probably will end up including she's dynamite as a backup just because she seems like she's getting back into format save a ton of ground from inside post. Exactly she's going to suck along with Garcia down in there and I thought that she's dynamite. The five to one had to be considered and I'm really glad you You looked better yet and alerted people because better yet You know a little bit of a little bit of a billiard ball you know kind of needs to be ridden on a timely basis but Villagomez you know certainly knows her and Yeah I thought the just noticing actually Josh Josh Pants Country Life Farm bred this one super ninety nine out of a not for love mayor and a better yet The fourth leg is a nickel conditional. Claimer these are foreign. That HAVE NOT WANNA raise since October eighth so go and look through the PP's and find the horse that won on October seven and that that frequently will be your winter They're going three-quarters quarters. Yeah Tampa Tampa seems like the home of the time restricted claimer many conversations with my father about him. Saying to me okay. So what's better and to why or a B? And drink go through these. What's better three all right so As an aside these this is a race. I think that that pretty much is going to be. At least the handicapping part of it is dominated by two horses taking pretty substantial drops in class. Double Leaf is coming out of open. Eight thousand dollars. I mean this is of course it was in one other than earlier in the meet and it seems like the like Benny Feliciana is just just reached his breaking point with the source and then they kind of want to move on. They claimed him for ten really. Haven't made any money and you're looking at just getting rid of him He's been competitive. He really didn't run poorly last time at all. They're probably could be eight thousand dollar race where he could win. But of course with With this horse population basically just all sticking around and there not being any any maybe slightly better horses leaving town. Those races get a little bit tougher in that makes things a little bit tougher for horse like double deep so I thought that he made plenty of sense and then I mean he's wild ride. Is You know it's a little bit of a tough scenario in terms of really embracing Amelia's wild ride but I mean fear not in terms of dirt. This is a horse. That was the first to begin his career so In fact I remember I remember it actually looking through his lifetime. Pp's that he won the Woodford when it was taken off the turf a couple years ago at a keeneland by an open lengths of I think one by three or four so not a great amount of concern about the surface change. And it's just a matter of how much you want to embrace these two big drop downs if you don't and for that matter as well. I mean big. Gillette is worth is dropping out of sixteen Claims on the turf course. That's the bottom on the turf so it's not an altogether fair description calling it a drop and and you know so you have yet another horse. It's sort of a similar situation looking for more possibilities. Solitary. Jack is coming back on long. Layoff seems like he's got a lot of speed feels like a little bit of a negative barn change and you don't really know if there's going to be effective off the layoff with kind of a totally unknown jockey trainer. That's not had a great deal of success. So I guess the other alternative really is a great Loudini who close to to get up for second at this level and and feels like sort of a logical horse. His problem of course is that he's just not very fun to the winter circle. So it's it's a situation where you you know what you're going to get when you're talking about a time restricted claimer. If this is no exception and however you can can see yourself if you can embrace the class drops and I think you're gonNA mainly focus your attention on double deepen. Amelia's wild ride with the great loudini really being met I alternative that gets us to the NIGHTCAP. We're looking at the Tampa Bay. Pick five carryover today and that starts with the fourth Eighty-one thousand starts the thing out. You gotTA figure they'll bet Three fifty or or more and So this'll this'll blow past the I would think a half a million maybe this nightcap a mile on the turf and we talked about it with swayze yesterday. There's some serious horses in here that that show up and Christoph Clermont has you know has used Tampa and years ago suffolk as you know as a personal stat builder and Cash Register. And here's Gaelic Gold. That's the viewing for Waterville Lake. And this is a Wrigley bred filly gala gold. Yes actually have to Multiple New York bread steak winter seafoam. Who has been more effective on the dirt? Oddly enough despite strike rich being tear force but yet gala gold coming over after prepping at that pace park and has a little bit of a spotty. Work Tab this is this is a horse I think that I I have no clue what we're going to get from this source. I certainly would not want to be singled to her but I don't WanNa be beaten by her is. This is a horse that I could see. Clermont probably figuring you know what why not get race into her an eighteen thousand dollars maiden special weight hope of her maybe being able to run in a maiden race at Belmont in a month and a half or so Fingers crossed so I think there are a couple of interesting courses whose form is not dirty. But they're they're both going to be mid range prices that I think you have to include and I it's heavenly peace. We're in this scenario. A looking at a pick five carryover because Nettie training on the nightcap on Sunday and heavenly peace was didn't receive any support on debut but of course it was eating competitive Gulfstream maiden special weight race and And heavenly peace had no chance given the way. The pace unfolded that that was a racist dominated on the front end and she ended up being pretty far off of it did put in a little bit of a run. Looked like really GONNA be experienced more than anything else and I think having that under her belt is GonNa help her. 'cause tremendously so. I'm expecting big improvement. Second time out and then windfall profit if you if you draw a line through her dirt race and you go back to the the Belmont Race mid-september that was a period of time that first month or so during the Belmont fall meet. It was impossible to be outside the three pass on the widener turf course and be effective at all and there was actually a lot of money to be made betting horses back that were making light outside moves especially when the railways out and windfall profit was right in behind the leaders and angled out for home just spun her wheels and it was exactly like the comments said failed to quicken but everybody was failing to quick and when they were moving on the outside on that terrace course so this is a horse who now coming back off. The layoff. Dot shook is another one who's used Tampa with a lot of success throughout this meat. Getting lasix for the first time. I think there's a lot to like here and I think she's probably GonNa be in a relatively decent spot just a little bit off the pace. There's a good combination of forces stretching out and those that have shown some speed already that I think it should be a pretty honestly run race. Those were two. I wanted to make sure I included clear as day is pretty obvious obviously gala. Gold is of course that you want to use. So I think you're gonNA find yourself three four potentially even five deepen here and where you're going to find an opportunity to narrow down it's going to be basically at your own discretion because this is the thing where you can certainly get Get pretty wide pretty easily and I imagine that's going to contribute quite a bit to this getting bigger because it's a it's a super competitive sequence mentioned one wacky horse That I think has got kind of a talk about dirtied up and kind of a Weird Look Texas. Promo girl I moved to the turf for. Ken Wesley last time and is a desert party out of Suave Mare. And in fact I'm just noticing Stonebridge the that's Bill Johnson. Up here In in Fort Edward and the bread this Bread this Philly. She improved a lot on the grass and also had trouble was also out posted. And she sneaky in here and is going to be a Zillion to one and I don't know I don't know if she's a wind candidate but She's horse that That could sneak into the exotics. And put the Spurs to it So don't be completely dismissive or pass over and and I actually am a unabashed. I'm an unabashed fad of Harry Hernandez who is a capable little jock and had won a race for US years ago. And I I like Harry Hernandez Yeah I think. He writes a turf Ridden turf well at Tampa as well as on boot home. A nice price from off the pace on the dirt the other day too so now. I think he's very capable and this horse that day with some speed With the front running type trip. She just forgets to quit. And you know looking at lightly raced kind of low level maidens you WanNa always take that into consideration. So I wouldn't wouldn't talk anybody offer and Tam One two one five. Everybody Nick Tammaro and Nick. This could be an unprecedented week for you. You've had plenty of weeks where you've appeared twice but this could be a three visit week for an Tam. We're GONNA do some Oakland on on Friday. That sounds great. I'm I'm hopeful that you any listeners. Next week after having to to bear with me for three days. Yeah you should. You should see the last week you weren't on and I got hate mail. We won't even tell them that you hit the pick for you know. Don't tell them that some of it was postage stamps from from Texas either Probably Self I love it victim row. Everybody and I hope. Some people took advantage yesterday When he came to the nightcap winter particularly frankly fun that nick alerted you to and and help close things out and we had a lot of fun doing that and it was fun to do. This plus You know analyze the situation yesterday with the with the takedown. We're GONNA stay right here as I told you right at the start of the show John Pine was gonNA comprise are are for the most part are breaks and this is not a John Bryan vocal. It's swamp Dogg Williams but It's a song that was penned. And and you know. I made famous by pride Sam Stone which as agonizing a anti war and post Vietnam owed As as was ever written Sam Stone Swamp Dogg Williams Samsung has been family. The conflict overseen in the thirties asked aspro. Jesus Radio Sam Atlanta and that without but goal has been trained. Jesus the cow loons male just Mac damn down swamp dogg Williams doing John Brines Sam stone and our tribute to John. Bryant will continue all morning and Happy to welcome in Sid Fernando and and I know that Those that follow sit on on twitter. You know the the the anguish involved in the circumstance that we're all dealing with Said I I can tell it's it's weighing on as well get. Thanks Steve. I guess it gets reflected tweets You don't realize you know what you're saying sometimes and up comes out. I guess it's it's unlike anything I think any of US have dealt with. And you know it. It's starting. You can see the trickle down effect as I said at the start of the show. I mean whether it's whether it's a personality like John Prime Or whether it's you know whether it's a racing related Tom Morley's barn Losing Martin Zapata and then I mentioned the Norden cy who Tina grew up with With a high school with falls and was a real friend to racing because growing up in the area I mean it it. It's just trading and an overwhelming day to day life. I mean it's just it's sobering to say the least said you know we're trying to stay distracted. We're trying to stay focused on our on our daily lives and livelihood trying to you. Know relay the information that people can use and hope it's been valuable yesterday The terrific visit Gen Shah to help people with the vallone opportunities but you you know you just you gotta be strong and if not You know just for your own mental health for you know the people around you and you know friends family of kids etcetera and you know. I'm sure you're in contact with Joe Daley You know who's staying ready and waiting for the callback all set on your part to spoke honestly and came to You think you have spoken with all true you know. Let's let's I appreciate it. Let's do our. Let's do our duty and let's dive in and figure out of something I'm bringing either on the watch. Better Refocus Brought to you by hill and Dale and Mari I I was going to say I was GONNA use Wesley Ward with you as a as a talking point about where the two year olds are and how going to be distributed. Because you know they're hoping to him hoping to get to be the next sales opportunity and then obese probably in June and will be a kind of a double sale of you know the second and third sales in in Ocala But Kamari and Wesley Ward a good jumping off point. Because you know. Here's Wesley who normally would be sending them out daily right now at Deland exactly an income of course. He had that devastating kingman winner last year. one big went to royal ascot ran well and You know now. She's showing showcasing versatility. Transit Karen has a real good piece on Kamari on our website at the worker bee consultants detailing pedigree but suffice to say. She's by Money who's really showcased so this year and it's a nother Saturday in his cap. It's also a notable that You know the family isn't particularly strong. Dammed because damage to surfaces but You have to go back to the Fort Dama Polga Allen Paulson's theatrical America's pedigree again. Show that you know somebody bread a stakes winning mayor to money. And you know you're you got a really good. Shot to get a racehorse which is a really a racehorse type of tire and You know he adds so much to the equation. The Damn of course. They're getting accomplished herself. But you know didn't have a huge family behind her when she went to money. So we've got it on the on the balance you gotta give him as much credit because he's consistently shown Over the last few words that stage Kinda been undervalued in the marketplace and You know he's the type of horse that he's the type of horse that even though the line spikes town line There it's a extremely well-known line for speed and what's not readily available information until you start to delve into it is that they actually get better with age. And that's certainly the case. Spite Sans we've talked about here and You know money's You can certainly expect that. His runners will run through three year olds then even if they show for me too as it has. Kamari did the and I'm looking at commodities. Page now I really had looked at it and you know one of the Nice things an interesting things about her and about seemingly a lot of the horses that Wesley Works with. It's not unusual to see a young horses. Mcpeek does this. Cassie does it. It horses. That might be bread. Straddling the turf dirt line and on Youtube utilizing them particularly turf early because it's easier on them. Cassie said that. And it's one of the reasons he likes it this this pedigree. I mean you look at at the cozine part portion of this and her being out of a a cozine mayor. I mean there. There is plenty of grass including when you look at money. Second Dam a lot Your air who was by Lord at war I mean. There's there's no shortage of turf influences secretariat Lady Wimborne Is the fact that you look at lager air by all rights? She was really bread for the grass. So top and bottom. There's there's no shortage of turf influences in here and You know secretary at Big Part of monies in a four by four. I think secretary with both secretary team and Lady wind-borne Yeah and He's had seven Stakes ON TURF. That's money also tomorrow zone families. You know you pointed out because the damn second damage By your Hannah's Bergh Their damn of course by pulpit maybe in yours but the Fort Campbell calder like the actual so this is quite a Lotta turf in here and as a as I mentioned earlier the Dan herself is one on surfaces And then you take a trainer like wet reward of coach doesn't matter what they are Wesley's going to get him ready early with Royal Ascot in mind anyway which is terrible you know. He's changed his for went. Almost fit that by training in the winter at two In Kentucky Florida kind of going against the grain so yes access to To working horses and actually running some moistens over the winter at turf way which all-weather surface obviously so that's the kind of a program that fits him It will be interesting to see what he's got in mind I'm sure he's still thinking about Royal Ascot they're talking about saying no fans. There is no no patrons but Evan ruled that the meek so It should be interesting to see what he's planning Four and Without early euro sales It's GonNa be interesting to see whether he's got an influx of home breads right now and trained for people. You know this is it. Is it a interesting time for for a lot of people who have Two Year olds in training in Florida. Because even those that don't lead to sell it the not breed but don't Condition them to sell two year. Olds you know there. There are plenty of other Breeders and owners. He sent their horses. Dan Forwarded break to get ready to race. Obviously in at an interesting one guy who actually was wondering whether he should actually Take some of them are trained for a while with the with the future so uncertain He medium-level guy. Who has you know? Costs are obviously significant factor for him. And so there's going to be some interesting Development is year goes on Steve because seventy sources were obviously need prying race at keeneland. That didn't happen and then they were being Brian to continue onwards After the four early four and a half for five days to get ready for the Saratoga me So you know it's it's GonNa be interesting if you have a block of horses. These two year olds that are filleted for and what that means for the year and a lot of people may be thinking. You know what? Let me give these guys a break right now and perhaps Concentrate on down. The road been far racing where they Perhaps have a better chance to run You know hopefully everything getting better as we get to the next month. Well I'm GonNa take an opportunity. Here's said as we. We talk about Camario and putting this up on on twitter Chris CA- to lack Who was with US earlier from honor? Chris's got he said to me. I've got some hats and t shirts If you want to do a giveaway and and I've got the greatest trivia question ever I'm GonNa give it to you and but you can't really answer it. You GotTa WanNa I WANNA give listeners and people on twitter a chance to answer it come Maris. Fourth Dam was an Allen Paulson. A very good horse that fits my my horse. That time forgot moniker. Her name was pulled up the theatrical mayor that you referenced well in her career she won the Joe Name Handicap. What is that race called now trivia there the Joe Name I? There's there's people that don't even know there was ever of a race named For for Joe name if but in fact it it had it had a long run and it continues today and it. It's it's actually a well-known graded steak and it's been run in the past the mean in the past. Let's say six weeks the Joe Nemeth and it was a great at stake and it continues to be a graded stake so wanted to answer that. An answer that on on let me finish writing this Kamari. Fourth and one. The Joe Name Handicapped Comma. What is that race called today? There we go all right. And that's for we'll give out five hats and t shirts from fodder park about that. I'm having a hard time trying to figure out where the race was run. I that's what's funny in Florida. That's a clue that's not and you would think New York but but no it is. It is a Florida. It is a Florida steak and I won't say if it was Hialeah or or Gulfstream. Or calder. But yes it was created and run in In Florida to begin with and continues to be so there's there's a turnquest fight there. Live and everything you go keep China trying to keep people entertained. Engaged the Joe Nemeth Andy CAPP. What is called today? I five right answers either by email or orb on twitter all right I love it and you know uphold uphold the herself. It should be noted. I mean she. She was theatrical out of a blushing groom mayor. And that was Allen. Paulson has so often. The case said we we look at these stake winners and and their their pedigrees and invariably there's you know the biggest names in in ownership and breeding history. Yeah that's a family that he had and she's a half brother to Ganji good colt by river man. You know tonight's family and it's set time when out and Paul. Some was buying a had a lot of international Bloodlines of course. He took control theatrical from the firestone's If you go back and you look at Paulson. Sam Period during the time. He's and Strawberry Road Jerry Ali's oratory of course named for nautical points no not an article Air Air points Sittings with air Flight references I think he was a pilot. I heard who who is it that I think it's I think it's Dr all day. Who is talked about flying? And I and I'm I'm GonNa pass can bring this up with asking tomorrow. A flight of with Allen and Madeleine Paulson and cross country on the plane. Yeah that's a that's a thing you definitely use it there. Yeah exactly and of course you know. Somebody'S WORSENS ARISE. The of course you know the a lot of the bed. He had had a strong. International bloodline credits. And it was something neighbors and had success with when Paulsen one of the great names and said let's spend a couple of minutes. We'll shift away from Kamari because I do want to include you in. I don't know if you had a chance to listen on Monday. But I do want to include you because you are on the list. It's all it's actually. I brought it downstairs because the list of the list of the list of journalists From that era that we started talking about Monday for for years. I've wanted to do this. Reunion concept of writers that an anti gap irs that started at metro turf or figs form or the racing dimes. And I literally. I literally made this up one afternoon in the Belmont. Press box and Evan Hammonds was there and so we we started listening. All these names and where you know who started. Where and who was hired by by Chris or at Fontaine when it came to fix forum et Cetera. And and then there's like a sub list of prominent whether it was pedigree writer's Lane your case. You know that that were in in amongst these writers at off to the side was said Fernando and this is before I even knew this goes back. You know twelve thirteen fourteen years. What was your give everybody your itinerary. The you know the where you went in the in the sequence of of your writing the portion of pedigree analysis well You know was I was racing. I don't know if they mentioned racing action which sparked my God. I did not include racing action in that list and you know whole group of handicappers and writers and of course Irwin Cohen. At the time was the editor in chief of racing action. Why and yeah. And and Irwin I work with Irwin. Kirwin hired me there and Then when Irwin went to of course really good friends with Chris and they've been talking about raking times being formed in once once Irwin went there. Then he ib racing times too so And that was a great great Period and it was actually great because I lived at the time. Time is building in Lower Manhattan Call Archives. Which is on Greenwich Street and Christopher Street? Through the great building and it was one of the building that lived in because one of the places over there that allow dogs and so that building was just down the street which it was on Hudson Street. Were the racing times officers were so it was just. It was fantastic. You know Racing action was of course in Long Island drive out to Long Island bill time to Manhattan but once raking times came aboard was a real short walk and that was a really exciting time. You know with that with that publication and all the people you know. I think Evan Hammond is part of racing times. It wasn't he he actually. He actually started a publishing. He went to the form via metro turf when when things form folded he and Ed Fontaine shift into the form and went to metro turf for that year And some other people are Irwin. The Irwin on the racing times list of course with with with Steve Chris who else was. Oh Hannah Guide. I mean You know dipped the eventual managing editor of daily racing form was racing action to induce. One of my best friend Yeah they were. Just you know I. I want to listen. Was that racing action thing. John John Silva racing action the Silva DEFA. That's right yeah There were there. Were a bunch of guys. There were there and You know that was more importantly also everybody in the business at the time kind of ROAF racing action too so that all all your big writers Yeah I can't even think crepe have but you know all the big writers during that period for that that wrote in newspapers like Neil Mellberg Dave Joseph Smith. Wow you know. All those people always wrote in racing action to raising actually the weekly so You know you got a chance to interact a mcmartin with the photographer at absolutely there. You Go. And of course and also and also at at At fix form which was more photography was the first time that there was any color photography John John Silva just wrote to me Said and hello to John He reminds Kelso's sturgeon cal. That's right yeah. He was a big mainstay over there. You know he he I mean he. He just like knocked up article after article after article over there but John Silva I mean. He was really humorous guy and It's very hard to judge so mad at At racing action Yeah it's Now that you would put raking action on your list. Go back and try to find out some of the people that were there but you earn towing daily racing form. We're going to get the Steve Chris Than Erwin j tomorrow. We'll talk about his racing times Hiring and I talked to Jay yesterday John also reminds said Tom Wolski was out somewhere in the country. And Lynch Schneerson must've been doing Rockingham and mainland circuit. She now back to racing time. She did. Yeah and she she did that. Other people are racing. I mean Rac- kinds of course was like a WHO's who of everybody was Unbelievable talent there including among the editorial staff Somebody had mentioned the other day on On twitter victim either. He was young guy at the time. I can't see brought him over from the New York Times. He was on the editorial desk. Excellent and of course Steve's White Robin Who's the writer in her own right was prominent on the editorial desk over there You know bunch of really Well-known guys and where that office was Was also close to an IRA member to fix. Form came was like on Springstreen. Thank and according to that Lower Manhattan area was also Jerry Brown or grass. Yeah and rags and so you know everybody would meet for those various bars You know you after work so there is a lot of interaction it was it was And it was it was like a real like you're gonNA make a movie about it. You know the people that you have drinks with. And just the uniqueness of that neighborhood and You know rape. Paul was on racing time. Yup absolutely west editor. Yeah and I still remember Gray coming in from Kentucky for meeting or something and people. We all went out to dinner and went to the pool or something like that. I mean you know it's really vibrant. Uh exciting time in racing and It's good memories big time big time. I love it. I wanted it anybody that I had had You know it had some crossover that Talk about that era. 'cause this is a this was a concept that I for. Yeah I'm telling you this piece of paper it's actually. It's downstairs right now on the coffee table in the dining room and the living room but I have kept it in. I've got files where I just. You know. I put things ideas or notes. Or whatever and ED's retired Ed. Ed got out seven years ago. I it's hard to believe it seven years. But he's absolutely clipping coupons. I mean he's he's he's just retired. He spends the summers the he's going to go on a on a what. Sounds like a really fun History Odyssey the summer with his son. they're gonNA see some Some baseball and they're well if there is baseball to see and he's got some historic. You know he's a huge civil war. Buff ed. Ed can give you dissertations on the civil war. He's been to all the battlefields and those because I don't think he does re-creations the that's a whole `nother level of of of of of kind of crazy the military recreationists but but he lives on the racing times Tracking out to Peter Berry Peter Berries on my list absolutely. He's got him on that list. You Bet I remember many years night going out to bars with Peter Berry and he was very good friends with the editor of The managing editor of the grazing times the came over from England. Neil Cook the cook who is an incredible character and so You know you had a big European. In for Joe Ca- capable can take the Francis good friend of mine Married to Georgia Francey Kate. is You know what was the advertising? Vp there and hurt system was mandy winger who Who Actually sat right across the way from me and Peter. Rock Condo was there Pete with the Breeders Cup now it was just a kid out of college at the time has with Mandy. We're going to get to here. Forget here some other tales from from those years and I just think it's amazing said that you know obviously when it comes to the computer era now and handicapping products whether it's time for him and this optics E. Q. And you know the ongoing innovations that you mentioned Jerry Brown the Jerry's constantly Y- The adding features third graph But there's been so many. You know recent modern innovations and that era the late eighties early nineties between those three publications particularly You know the racing times Figs form which was. There's people who who still in fact when I brought it up on Monday and had Evan and Ed if people that said God they did great with figs form and it was so innovative and then metro turf. Which for me. There's very few people that remember metro turf but a well because we were New York and it was you know it was on the newsstands and it was perfect for lunchtime or walking. I lived on thirty fifth and second and I'd walk to my office at five hundred Fifth Avenue and you pick one up and it gave you just enough information to play the double you know and not be you know Lexington Lexington and thirty four there was also the one was the other one Not far from the office either. But my buddy my buddy Jim Mortiz and I He was working at slimfast Jim. We'd we'd beat the go. Go play the double and and Metro Turf. Had you know the last three performances and it had those closer looks and it was just enough to make you dangerous make a couple of plays and and that the the beat the B F Double when when the Ot New York oh TV after the with those letters and they would take the surcharge. The criminals that they were actually a bully. Too funny well said this was great. I appreciate it as always will. We've got a we've got a prep. We've got a derby the Arkansas Derby prep and they'll draw today at Oaklawn for that oaklawn steak and were we heard yesterday Jay Primm in reporting that Thousand words is common. Joe Talamo is GonNa ride. And then there's a bunch of asmussen than and Cox runners and and others so. I think we got something to look forward to hear When it comes to Saturday and we'll have a three year old or to to talk about next week next week. You got it sin Fernando Everybody Sire Watch feted refocus brought to you by hill and Dale and work thoroughbred consults. Ecorse five one. Oh four nine. Oh eleven eleven. Late season covers as the breeding season continues. Weren't April here and you might have some decisions. There's probably some people that have made the move to retire Mayor or two at this point that without without racing particularly horses on the eastern seaboard. That doesn't have to be on the eastern seaboard. I suppose it could be anywhere but particularly in the east and have said pull up Broodmare compatibility analysis and help you. You don't negotiate a late-season cover about that. We're GONNA talk to John White the next. And then Seth Mero in our three. I haven't heard back from Andrew. So we'll we'll catch up with Andrew Walk Ins as as early as tomorrow. Maybe talk about The Australia racing for the weekend but as we continue to pay tribute to John Prime. Let's listen to one of his one of his many War protests. This is black decal. Yeah I was GONNA say Kay. I don't think there we go in the back. Go the dirty bookstore plastic flag with gum on the back on the floor well bick did ban arena outside. Slapped a window shave? Ceo Betsy Raw Taylor out good. Abby gone your flag gal the Emma any already overcrowded your dirty. Jesus lag no matter what flagged in the heaven when the bank this morning and the cashier said the knee. John Christmas love. We'll give it ten eleven flags from well out of man around a Man. Took him up on woody say and stuck them stickers all over a car at one on four hand your flags gal any already overcrowded robbery out. Jesus In the heavy on Got Wind. She us a bill with flag. Gooden's see Zoa ran the car upside her radin. Do it three by the time. They got doctors now. I was already dead and I'll never understand. Why the main standing in the pearly gates your flag. How long the already overcrowded now? Jesus don't lag no matter what flag gal in the hammer any job.

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Far Cry 6 Revealed! - What's Good Games (Ep. 173)

What's Good Games

1:04:59 hr | 3 months ago

Far Cry 6 Revealed! - What's Good Games (Ep. 173)

"What's good everybody welcome to another episode of what Good Game Live for Monday July. Thirteenth Twenty twenty I'm Andrea joined by this. Brittany Brom Bacher Lou Andrea. Brits? How are you totally didn't just mess up the intro and do it over again. No, we didn't I was telling you. That will never see the light of day because I was muted that I'm just in a weird mood today. It's kind of like a high on life, and it could have been the caffeine I had before we started the show. Who could say you know who could say? Are. You also affected intensely by caffeine. The way one Christine steamers. Well, I haven't eaten so I did have a little little five hours that I like my Kirkland signature energy shot I didn't have thing though because it will. Not Be good, but just a little SIP is all it took and I'm off to the races, baby girl. Oh, I wish that caffeine did that for me. Do you usually go out of caffeine? Is that why I don't I? I used to drink like a couple of cups a day, but now I'm done to one cup a day because the medication that I take for my adhd interacts with caffeine and not a great way. In so essentially like I, just don't need or use caffeine. Four I could drink a red bull ago righteously. Yep because I when I was bartending, I would do red bulls throughout the night to keep my energy up, whether it was placebo or not, who could say and then sometimes I would drink one as late as like one or two am. Because we had like all this clean up and paperwork to do after the club close and so I wouldn't get home until four or five am, but still be able to go to bed holy Shit. Maybe we'd seen it injector blood with just. Caffeine Red Bull maybe in cyberpunk. We can do that. We'll turn you into a red bull monster. ooh, something to consider a welcome to the show everybody. We are glad to be back after our little break for your source for video game news. Come to analysis in funny stuff. Every Monday at eleven am Pacific Time right here at wish TV slash what's good Games on your favorite podcast service or a YouTube dot com slash? What's good? Games Brittany I know that you were playing. Playing a game that we're GONNA be talking later this week over the break. Did you have a nice a nice week? I did I got to spend. The majority of it was with a particular game. This is a very particularly long game and that was where the majority of my time and effort was spent, but I got to spend time with family, which is really nice, got to hang out with my husband, which is a good thing to do from time to time. And just kind of get outside you. Getting a good time with the husband is good. John and I had that talk of we are around each other constantly because of the quarantine, but we don't spend a lot of time. Interacting with each other the way that we used to because I think a lot of couples have run into the same issue of well. You used to tell me about your day at work, but now I see you all day because you're working from home. or You would tell me about like a meeting. You would go to or business trip that you were coming back from, and it's like well, so I see you again i? Just saw in the bedroom. hallows your trip to the kitchen. How was it? Yeah. It's been a kind of a fascinating mental circus of you're so used to seeing that. Jason I've worked together. I mean in from home for Oh, I don't know how many years now like five or six, so we're used to it, so we've also kind of had to figure out. How do we? How do we combat this? And we found that a nice brisk walk outside away from all technology really helps get now. That's a good call. We've been meaning to do that. We just haven't been able to kind of pull ourselves away from obligations, but now that I've heard that some of the beaches here in southern California are open, I'm like what let's grab are cute. Summer Masks and go furlough walk by the OCEAN STU it. I bought a bunch I should say. I bought John, bought a bunch of the Disney masks that they were selling I. Don't know if you knew that they disney was selling mass, so we have like fifteen different kinds of Disney masks, and some of them are character faces which are Super Fun Oh that looks. Like! Mickey's Phase Stitches Phase I've got one. That's the Oh my gosh. I can't believe I'm forgetting her name. The really cute little white kitty from aristocrats I know you're talking about, but my God. Pet Yes, I'm just blanking any who masks mayor them. Get, one of those Skyro- masks. Have you seen those like? Oh, it says like level one armor, but it protects against like diseases or something. It looks really cute. Nice, thirsty panic coming through duchess. Is Her name okay? I have one from gearbox. They sent for borderlands. Cycle Mask Yeah, it's pretty fun. Lots of different kinds of Massachusetts from any who were getting off to a great tangent here to start off our show this Monday and while we're talking about random stuff, let's go ahead and talk about a couple of pieces of housekeeping and Oh, thanks, the sub ju-suk so. So housekeeping. Did you miss our Patriot? Streams the month of July just yesterday. Don't worry patrons. You can watch the archive at Patriot. Dot Com slash. What's Good Games and I'm glad that. Lizzie dis here as well tell drew, said highs well. Thank you so much Lizzie, and then we've also got what else do I. Put on my things, oh. Yes, we have just a couple of days left I, think two days at ends, July Fifteenth for those exclusive twenty twenty, which pride emotes so if you guys haven't seen these add, there's over twenty different custom pride emails. Emails just for twenty twenty, and you can unlock them by Bina tear, Onesta by giftedness, or by cheering three hundred bits or more, so you have just a couple more days to get those, and when you unlock them, you also unlock them for a member of the community and twitch then donates to black lives, matter, and to the Trevor Project which is a win win win? Win Win Win Win. So if you haven't gotten to yet, and you want to consider that plus Brittany, you've had this one ladies and gentlemen, we are on playstation five preorder watch I know rumors are rumors or rumors and rumors. GonNa Rumor. But the latest and greatest could be today as twelve thirty PM Pacific that we could be getting his five preorder page I know in Australia I think it was at the playstation. Five preorder pages gone life well not that you can preorder, but like setup for pre ordering, so any of this happens chat I'm watching you. I'm going to stop this stream and stop office podcast, and I'm gonNA pure APS five. Not Saying it's going to happen because I. Don't think we're going to twelve thirty, but I'm just saying anything happens I'm counting on you. Don't let me down I go straight to Andrea I thought I. Thought it sorry. We have so many people coming in and gifting substantive. Realizing I haven't muted. Those audio alerts so I i. WHO's watching this back on? On Youtube, California, kid coming in with the gifted subs. I'm trying to figure out where because we have transitioned almost fully to the new now which you can see behind me still figuring out some cabling and some audio settings. You may have noticed when we were doing. The UB saw forward. Watch along this weekend that. There were some problems. That we were trying to. Navigate on the on the fly so. I don't know if I'm going to be able to find that. Right away so I. Apologize in advanced but. It's it's just it's just part of the process it. Okay, we're making sausage. Right in front of your very is nice stuffed. I was going to say slimy sausage, but that's not right, you know. Yeah what's what's a good word to describe sausage? Juicy. Better than signed. I think when I am meeting an ice sausage. Tell me all about it. All right I wanted to be juicy. Normalcy dry sausage I mean really I want to Kremlin your mouth, no, as you and Steiner one saying nobody wants to drive Weiner nobody laxity inter. One. Back all right without further ADO `but why don't we get onto the news? Okay, sure, okay, new show. I mean it it is. It is a new show we do talk about news. Your source for Video Game News Commentary Nells, but we did spend a little time on the funny stuff, which is also important. Alright so first up. We have got a couple of recaps for you about some press conferences that happened over the weekend and Britney I'm not gonNA. Run down like all of the details from UBISOFT forward that happened yesterday I have kind top level highlights. I think the one of the big announcement that got leaked and then teased, and then officially announced was of course far Christ six after several weeks earlier this week, he officially announced the game, and it's got a February twenty twenty one release date, and of course the reveal showcased, breaking bad and the mandatory delorean actor Giancarlo. As the big bad villain. So, what did you think about? This revealed trailer I. So. We talked about it during because we reacted to it. Didn't really gather a lot of information from this trailer I. think that's probably purposes posting. Get hyped excited. I thought I was waiting for something to explode toward the end because your whole little Danny Rojo, which is the character you're gonNA, play ass, which I find out, you can play us, male or female much. I learned later holding this grenade. And then you think is gonNA throw it. And then he doesn't and all of us. I think for you. Andrew. O. No, we need that release. We needed that explosion because it was so fucking tense, yet it's like boom released eight all right, not the kind of boom I wanted, but. Take it as far as the big bad villain guy I mean I. Don't know who he is anyway, so no surprise there. US on breaking bad, that was his thing Giancarlo. Wait, so you don't know about Giancarlo No. zooms actor way. Did you never watch any breaking bad? Or the mandatory listen if it doesn't star one. Judith Scheindlin Andrea. It's not my shtick Brittany. One of these days chat. They're gonNA. Stop being so surprised by these revelations I know my sausage and get slimy by watching TV. What's crazy? Though is that June Carlo has been around for a really long time. He's been actor in dozens and dozens of movies but I. Think like breaking bad was really his kind of like big starring role where he. became a household name to a lot of people, and then his role in the Mandal Laurean is good, but it's relatively small comparative to to some of the other characters I think we're gonNA see more from him in the upcoming season with the mandatory. That's happening later this year, but I loved when they were teased it and we saw his face. I mean because it's very iconic very clearly him and the Mo cap that they did was really great, and I have watched a couple of interviews that have been happening this morning with him as well and I think that it's going to be really exciting. Exciting to see because some of the things that he said about his character have indicated that he's not as like thoroughly evil as some of the previous far cry villains that we've got, but that he's just trying to do what's best for his island. His people to take care of his little country and I'm really interested to see that dynamic in far cry, because I feel like most of a far cry villains, we've got our like unequivocally evil and terrible people yeah, the well who's the main villain from the last one but hippy guy I can't remember his name Oh father something on father father. Father of the Weird Shit, his little, his little underlings I, thought were very one-sided, actually thought he was kind of an interesting character he was cow is here the his name? Is the father in Joseph's just seed seed. I thought he was pretty a pretty interesting character, but His, little, like underlings for very I'm a bad person here and here's why I'm GonNa. Make you fight me in an airplane. Don't ever do aerial combat. Far Cry, please but what? I'm interested to you about. This is that it's being led by Ubisoft Toronto in the past. They've helped Montreal with their efforts. But this is the first time they're leading an actual far car game. which I think is Great I. personally like far cry five I thought it was a fine game I thought it was fine, if not a little repetitive, but But I think that's been the number one criticism of the series is it just feels more of the same same old, same old slop, new skin on it, and maybe throw in a few little tweaks here and there, so maybe this is a good fresh start, and they haven't mentioned multiplayer either I. Don't know if they're gonNA save that for future reveal, but maybe this will be a single player game. You know I I. Don't about multiplayer like at all in far cry. I think far cry. Succeeds as a single player game, you and I have tried doing the co-op stuff before, and it kind of feels like it's good for some like. Shenanigans like running around and just being you know silly, but I think that you know when you try to take yourself seriously as sometimes the far cry series does that when you build that stuff also into the game undercuts this really intense narrative that you're trying to bill build, and I would really love to see them. Potentially go in a different direction with doing with this far cry and say hey, you know what we're going to lean in to a grittier version while still maintaining the really. Excellent open world mechanics that far cry is known for The best part about this injury is Treasa the fangs for hire a Weiner dog who has a little wheelchair with his back legs. Oh wait a minute I didn't see anything about a Weiner dog. Oh, yeah, he's a favor hires Amos Theresa and he is described as the cutest wiener dog on wheels. Oh adorable. He's really really cute and I'm excited for him to wreak havoc. In this hour I feel like I have to go find where this. This wiener dog is now Teresa Suri's. Oh Chore Like Sausage Areso. Not. To Rizzo or something, it's like Oh, no, I get it I'm definitely makes me want like a like a spice. Sausage Sandwich or something noth juicy, not slimy nobody wants. Sausages biggby five. And then also the far cry, six collector's edition has a two and a half foot flame thrower. Obviously. It's not real. Kids. Don't get too excited about it. But I thought that was kind of a fun little. A little thing that I probably will get I. Feel like we definitely need to look this up. Okay, let me find. Let me take a look at this first off. We go far cry six chill Areso. The cutest little wiener dog. On wheels. Prayed Keel Yeah Hell Ed dopek Sadri it is a really really cute name, and he's really cute. He's fat leaner. Doug he's overwrought. Right here is that. Is that him here? I think so looks pretty cute, pretty cute and I think part of the preorder incentive is. He gets like a liberty outfit where his little. Wilshire has little spikes coming out of it, it uses adorable. All right, so maybe if I just go to the far cry six preorder page again, you might see it there. Is Axel from twisted metal. Oh my God. I love you so much. Thank you for that reference definitely not. But that's a that was a good goodman. I love twisted metal. Bring to meddle. Okay Britt. I've got the be roll up here. Okay, also everyone who's watching live I'm attempting to do bureau. Let me know about it. You didn't me, so this is the thanks honey. So this is the gold addition clued the season pass, it says. Looks like it's. The Golden Steel Book is one or nine ninety nine ultimate edition includes bonus content season pass. That's one nineteen ninety nine. Oh, here we go! This is the flame thrower. Is a video collector's edition. That's the world premiere trailer. Called the toasted door. That toasted. There's OH. My Gosh. Little, Theresa only. Hugh. Here we go! Here's the collector's edition. Oh, my goodness that thing is tents Oh. Yeah, look at that big toaster door. Can get the slide offer sausage with the toasted or okay gotta let go. Go sledding over over it. Let it go. I do think this is really neat and I might have to get one. Might have to get one all right continuing on since we're still just at the very top of this. Assassin's creed vol. Hala has been. Announced a release date in it is confirmed for November seventeenth twenty twenty on xbox one, ps, four stadia and xbox series, ex and UPS five us to not give release date for either of those councils just to be clear. The November seventeenth released confirmed for. The four platforms that are currently available. Not Five in xbox series, but I think yeah I think we all know that by then you know one of those or both of those councils will be especially since cyberpunk is just two days later I mean. Yeah. So. We got a question from parable eighty-nine who submitted who rush into West? Good Games dot com slash. WG because you talked about this well tweeted. Rather about this today. The question is what do you think about the new assassin's creed? Having moment side quests in the game. I don't know if that's what they meant. They are replaced with what is called world events, which seems a bit weird to me. Thank you for answering and have a lovely day, ladies. Yes, so I was tweeting about this because I saw a headline from gamespot that said. that. They're doing away with. Doing Away with a cyclist, I want to get the exact headline right. Let me go. Let me go to my twitter. It make sure that I'm quoting. Both gained of myself correct. That's very smart. If you a lot of people don't do that. Okay, so it says assassin's creed Valhalla will have almost no side quests, so that's the headline that they went with on twitter, and I saw that go through my feet, and I was like you know. That seems really disingenuous, because there's definitely side content I played it I played a lot of it. Actually I clicked on the article and they do an interview with. Darby McDevitt who is the. Narrative director of the game, and who has worked on the SS creed franchise, several times over the years, and I've had the pleasure of interviewing more than once, and he speaks in this interview about how they're changing that side content to feel more authentic to who ever is as a character knowing diet. Is a Viking and Avars, rating and kind of going into England as an invader, and so narrative wouldn't necessarily make sense for to be approaching a bunch of random people about side quests, and I was like okay. I understand that as a as an explanation, but for this headline to say there's No side. Quest is absolutely disingenuous on twitter. The thing that is important to remember is that even if they don't specifically call them side quests, there's definitely a ton of extra content to do in fact when we were talking about our impressions after ub forward yesterday I said that there's probably once again too much content to do in assassins Greenville Holland. Holland I think that'll be a downfall for the game thing. That game looks amazing wonderful and these world events are very similar to what we saw in redemption to and several other games where you come across somebody in the world and they're like. Hey, can you come help me with this thing whether it be getting a Horse for child whose horse rider from her, picking up food for some other people are going and killing a pack of wolves, whatever the event is still considered suicide quest right exactly, but it's not just called aside quests. Since I was like this is, there's no shortage of content. Does that Hala so don't worry everybody interest. In Yeah. but other than that. What did you think about everything else that we saw for for? I. It was interesting. I mean even broke out my minority beard and everything during the previews. Well, it was more of like it was a cinematic trailer there showing the. cinematics, some combat and some of the Gore and some of the. And pumping veteran ran. Let's go knock. Some heads off I. Thought that looked incredibly awesome pump for it, but then as I started watching more and more gameplay, it did feel more like a re skinned assassin's creed game, and just remind everyone. I've never been able to finish a game because they've never been able to hold my attention. It's just a little too much to do in that world and I've never found the story gripping enough. So I just tend to fizzle after about lake, Tahoe hours or so of playing. So while I think in terms of setting this one at P appeals to me. The most I don't know if it's GONNA be able to hold my attention because it just looks like another AC game with beard biking beards. Yeah, so I also agreed with you on this. After my playtime with the game I thought as well that the game felt a little bit Samey for what was happening in assassin's creed odyssey now assassin's creed. Odyssey's a phenomenal game and I think that the RPG direction that team is going in is very good and very exciting, but I think that I really would have liked to see them edited down a little bit. I think some of the things that you know. They take you around do in the game. Just feel a little bit superfluous and feel like why am I wasting my time doing this and it was interesting because we were. We were doing live reacts with Steiner, and she was talking about how in my game play that I was showing was level fifty, and about a third of the way through the game, and she's like Oh Dang we'll fifties a third of the way and I was like yeah man. He's going to be a long slog, and that was a big complaint about Odyssey from people. People is there was just too much stuff to do now? When I spoke with members of the development team, they did tell me that they tried to focus in on how many quests that they were giving how many different areas they were doing activities, and that it feels like a more focused experience, but from what I played. I don't know if our definitions are focused of. Different. But some of the things that I am excited about that. They're bringing back thousands creed Valhalla include a return to some stealth elements that we saw really all the way back in Sassoon's creed, to arguably one of the best games, and noted by a lot of people as the best game in the franchise I'm. I prefer. Quite frankly but I think that what's interesting about that is that the franchise has received criticism from people from fans that they really have gotten too far away from its stealth roots, and really are focused too much on some of this hack and slash gameplay stuff that doesn't feel particularly assassin he right like. You see four going in with these giant weapons, and this big shield and I'm like wow, she feels or he, whoever whichever gender you play really just feels a lot like a like a viking like a brutal strength based. In a warrior, instead of a very sneaky agile assassin, which is what the franchise has been known for it, I think that is an interesting dynamic and I think that they clearly needed to evolve the franchise, but they may have evolved too far in one direction and previous, and it looks like they're starting to walk that back now, which I think is exciting as a longtime fan of the franchise that they're giving players more options for how they wanNA play so if you WANNA. WanNa, play more action focused. You can, but if you WANNA play more self-focused, they're giving you a lot more options this time around like social blending, which is back meaning that you can walk through crowds and disappear into crowds again. Obviously the Hay Bales and disappeared into bushes is still very much a part of the game but I'm really excited to see a little bit more of how they incorporate more stealth into the actual gameplay of what's happening in assassin's creed, Mahala? Wait and see I suppose indeed continuing on. Hyper scape was also shown during the UBISOFT forward press conference, and they announce that the new battery Al is available an open Beta, so they confirmed that there's going to be a new weapon, new hack and a new thirty two year battle pass so if you guys haven't checked it out if you miss the stream that ran and did where we streamed the PC technical tests, you can get in on the open Beta for yourself right now. Well. Let's say hyperscale is a lot of fun I don't do battle. Royale I had a blast cleanness with Andrea Yeah. It was just you didn't get to play three. Unfortunately US Yuna Arango that puppy played with, but yeah really fun. It's really like what I like about. The most is when you die. It's not just game over you get to Scout. You interact with your teammates. You get to do a lot of fun stuff, so it's really engaging in that regard and I think it's probably if you just a few matches I played the favorite my. Story because it does kind of had that silly quirky light, hearted feel that grant some people are GonNa, take this very seriously as the do obviously thing, it's what Ubisoft once, but if you're just looking hop in and play some fun, casual matches, check it out. Yeah I had a ton of fun. Playing with you and re and I know that re as our defacto battery, Al Fan girl is still excited about this and the fashion in particular. Is Really Fun, and it's got a really good Scifi vibe to it and I, really like the movement and the momentum. The one thing that I'm hoping that they're going to adjust imbalances the weightiness of the guns, because right now. The guns just feel a little light and I. Don't know if that's supposed to be intentional, but I don't prefer that style of first person shooting. Shooting because I really enjoy that this battery out is first person we were talking about in the reacts how it feels like an evolution of what fortnight is accomplishing with being a more casual focus battle royale something that kids can play 'cause there's not a lot of violence Gore that you sometimes see in other battle royale, but that because it's first person and third person. It inherently is going to be a little bit more action focused, and I would like to see them. Put a little bit more weightiness in and I know that Ubisoft has that skill set because rainbows sixes phenomenal. What you do Andrea is you don't even get a gun, right? You start each match with baton. You keep the baton, and they find the Bouncy ball of grades. And then he just bounced around. Knock bitches off roofs. Just knock bitches off roofs. I mean that is a strategy one that you might not find to be successful, but I would love to see you try. Oh. What are you going to deny? You're going to deny what I said. Girl seed, all my bouncy ball skills, and all their glory. You've seen some of it just a little taste. Okay, okay, okay. It's. Like this. Upgrade everyone the best so. It is it really is I'm just going to continue on yesterday to cut you off because we do want to keep moving. We do have a lot more news to talk about Bra. Khawla will be coming to Iowa. android devices ubisoft announced during its UB forward event, the mobile versions will feature cross play in our sits release on August sixth just dance. You know they couldn't not talk about just dance. In three three new songs three returning songs a new playlist. The trailer introduced hype by Dizzy Rascal, and Calvin Harris Latte Buta by Becky G and features. And Crayon by G Dragon to digital, any of those songs. Now Andrea no I I'm getting so old. What's happening I? Try to go on spotify I know you're going to give you shit because you're like. I'm older than you are, and I know who these people are. Yes, I know you're more hip and cool than I am I admit, but I was trying to listen to spotify fifty and I don't like any of that music. I don't get it and my to back. Give me all my good old nineties. Wrap please for the love of God. I love that you said that. Because nineties, rap is awesome. There is a couple of songs that you may recognize. Do Remember Barbara streisand by duck sauce no. Oh my gosh I I look for. I would play for you if we wouldn't immediately get a content ID. But I'll play for you afterwards. When I play it, you, you'll recognize okay. US Yeah duck sauce. It's great I'm. Watchdogs Legion almost skipped over. One of the biggest announcements the whole show. US. Finally talked about Washrag Legion after they had gone silent on the game for quite some time that it's going to be releasing in this fall just mere weeks ahead of his Asan's Greenville on October, Twenty Ninth Twenty Twenty, and we also got to see some gameplay from this game as well. They showcase more of legions ambitious. I would one hundred percent agree with that which allows players to recruit any NPC and make them a playable character which is. Nan knows so I showed. You guys a little bit of my watchdogs game play after the press conference was over and it. This game is like it feels like there's everything and the kitchen sink in this game and I think on one hand. It's so cool with their attempting to do with watchdogs Legion on the other hand I'm like boy. Oh boy, it almost feels like because there's so much choice. They're going to be paralyzed and not be able to choose anything. Just walk away. That's a real concern. Concern I have about this game Yeah, my main concern to you and I talked a little bit about this during the library acts is if you don't have one main character to bond over and get to know and get to understand where they're coming from in their emissions, and hopes dreams and fears to me. That's what keeps me hooked in a game. Is that characters journey, and if you have a whole bunch of I, think is what forty people you can have your Austria, forty random NPC's. Am I, GonNa care enough about them, or the game can plague interview so engaging that I'm not gonNA. CARE. I was reading about Ozan Aegean article about how if you have a construction worker. And, you need to get into a construction site. That's or you're GONNA WANNA construction worker to get into a construction site because you're going to be able to blend in well, but on the other hand. If you don't have on, you're gonNA going to recruit one and I think that's kind of interesting twist to it like okay. I got to find someone to recruit so I can do this mission the best that I can and the way. I want to just kind of interesting to me, but. I don't know we'll have to see I'm just so curious to see how going to come together and work. Yeah, I, think for me. The things that were really excited about my playtime with the game. Were this idea that you get to really choose the kind of place you want and that each playthrough is going to be unique, so in the that I gave and I am going to clip out those impressions for both assassin's creed and watch dogs and upload them as individual videos. If you guys WanNa, Watch those full discussions. And what I thought was really cool. Is that what I talked to can't who is the game director? He told me that everybody's NPC's are unique. So you? We're watching a little bit of Gameplay from the trailer by this construction worker like the archetype of construction worker may be similar, but the individual personality traits the look of that character, their age gender all. All of it will be unique to your play through because of the census system that they have designed specifically for watchdogs, which is proprietary technology, and so one of the big reasons why they delayed the game was because they needed to refine that system and add more components to it to make more diversity among the characters. You see in the open world because. Because there are a lot of NPC's in London. It's a big town and I'm really interested to see how they're going to really weave the narrative of what's happening with dead sick throughout all of these different MPC's and get to see how they all come together and some of the technology in this game I. Think is just phenomenal like during my play through. Through the draw distance in particular when I was flying around in London I was impressed by how much of the city was loaded in I didn't really see any popping in in the background. It was all just there, and I'm actually really curious how that's GonNa work on current consoles, but I think on the new consoles like series accent ps five and obviously. I. Think it's going to be the best play experience because of just how ambitious! This title is looking to be this fall. excited. I'm excited for it. I think that was GONNA be way too much to do again. Exciting Trimble. Yeah I. I just think that what they're doing is really neat, but the timing of it coming out just mere weeks ahead of cyberpunk, who also has a big open world that focuses a little bit on this anarchy element is going to be a really tough call for people. It's. So here we go watchdog Legion October twenty. Ninth ACL Hala Nevada. CYBERPUNK November nineteenth like Chad be curious, just dropping in like what are you GonNa? Play these in, or are you going to hold off for one or the other? I mean from our personal perspective. Hopefully will be fortunate enough to get some review copies, which means that we'll have some time in advance, but even then like I, can't imagine trying to juggle all of these eight. Queen Legion cyberpunk to finish one of the Games alone. Absolutely. It's GONNA be. It's GonNa be tough for sure for Gamers, particularly in a year where finances are hard for everybody because of the pandemic and you have to save if you're planning to buy one of the new consoles for that as well. I'm just like boy. Oh, boy, I! Really Hope Somebody. Probably XBOX AHEAD TO GUESS IS GONNA come out with a bundle council bundle, so you could save a couple bucks Bein it at the piece of bundled software with the new console, but I don't WanNa put too much. Hope in that, but it would be nice. So it looks like some answers to your question. Brittany, in the chat, it says of course regimen. Destiny to up until cyberpunk. I'm right there with you. Bunko says Halo and Spiderman Games that. Were not included in that list. says. CYBERPUNK TAKES PRIORITY ASIAN? forty-seven, also cyberpunk then. Like a dragon and it looks like pretty much everybody in this list that is including cyberpunk has put CYBERPUNK I. Yes it is. Not Surprising IP, fatigues building. Up for a second, I took I had to catch up. I thought you were going to say I P fatigue, and I was like wait. What and then you're like? Fatigue. As in the letter I in. Okay no, that would that work. How would one year and eight fatigue gotTA themselves? That's fine. You know what that's a question that can't be answered are continuing on. The Kurtz. Previewed edits coming in August is really the flashy eighties update is part of the summer on Hollywood which will include legendary eighties cars like the delorean trials. Rising is going to be getting the GIGA track. The longest track trials franchise history on July sixteenth. That's GONNA be a free update for all players and then ghost recon breakpoint is going to receive a free title. Update on July fifteenth as well most notably it adds. To the game for the first time leading solar players choose whether they want squad of operators play with who will have the same abilities as player controlled characters solo players will be able to give orders to customize the gear of their it mates. The update will also add a new limited time event resistance beginning on July sixteenth. You can find all the details about all of their games service UPDATES because we're. We don't want to go through all of them of course over at Ubisoft Dot, com and I believe there was one more thing that I missed in this update. Let me just double check really quick. Yes. It is elite squad, so we saw this sound like a little teaser for it I'm so elite squad is a new mobile game, and let's see here. It's description. UBISOFT website says collect an upgrade your favorite characters from rainbow six ghost RECON, the division, splinter, cell, and more mobile devices command your best squads and stunning and dynamic five five battles experienced really and action in campaign mode with a unique Tom. Clancy storyline challenge other squads in epic player versus player and Guild versus guild battles. That's so cool epic. You get your splinter. Cell Game folks there. It is oh. Boo is not a splinter cell game. We were talking about that during the livestream all of a sudden. It is. But. It's not your sorry sorry. Keep on waiting, so we didn't miss a couple of things not missed, but like we were missing some things from ubisoft. C. No update on what's happening with skull and bones, no update on gods and monsters, not up date on roller champions, and no update on beyond good and evil too, and I'm disappointed. Yeah you're to be. They did say they have another stream coming. At some point, we'll get more info, you know. I still think Reagan something Prince of Persia Related I can feel in my bones Andrea. I can deal. Okay, okay, I guess another forward is coming before the end of the year they said Yeah our magic eight ball did pretty good. I think he got like most of them right besides the beyond good and evil questions obviously yeah. Well we gotta get a new one. Yes I. Mean Listen is over here on the set I can get rid of it. I'm I did have a little thing in here about a piece of context I thought was interesting about assassin's creed. Mahalo that I forgot to mention we were talking about it, but so just quickly. Over on Aegean Matt per slow, did an interview about vol Hala and he wrote. I took part in the feature ability to swap I've ors or Avars gender from menu? It turns out. This isn't a demo feature to allow journalists to show both male and female versions of the character to readers. Instead. According to Darby McDevitt that while avoiding story spoilers, of course, this is the new gameplay feature to ensure that both male and female versions of eight are considered Canon the feature is backed up by new law that upgrades the abilities of the Animus the machine that allows us. Acids create characters to explore memories of their ancestors, so as a longtime ac fan this stuff that. That Darby talks about with the enemies and some of the present day stuff I thought was really fascinating, but I didn't want to go into it here because I know it's a little nerdy in the weeds for people who aren't AC fans, and if you WANNA, go in blind. You probably don't WanNa. Read this article, but if you're like me, you give me Moore. GO CHECK OUT ARTICLE AT DOT COM All right moving on Britney devolve also had a showcase on Saturday with devolve or direct twenty twenty. Now you said you did not see this did not see this. It was delivery thing. Yes, I mean devolve her has. Since, they began their e three style press conferences done shenanigans every step of the way. In fact, we were part of the Shenanigans The first year for share I think it was the first year we launched. Yeah, yes, a was. It was more of a seventeen Alexis. With US I think we're all like drinking like this stupidest thing ever, which was like scripted. Of course. We don't think it's the stupidest thing ever, but it was. Yeah It was a good time and they continuing the good times. If you guys didn't watch it and you want to go back, you can. I mean I said this yesterday. I'll say it again. I'm still a little confused. So so much time doing this fake narrative with evil, Theo and marketing person. That time would have been better spent showcasing more of their games, but. is going to devolve her so a couple of things that they did announce shadow warrior three. We got a first look at game play and the game of course is coming in twenty twenty one. Oliseh Leisure Leisure, we said that wrong. Is a Prince of Persia inspired action adventure coming to? Switch this fall featuring a shipwrecked captain and a country for people who don't really want him to beat their. Fall guys of course has been around for quite a while that we have been seen the sixty player Barrio game is coming on August fourth to. Four or finally? I mean I feel like this has been at packs as a demo for years at this point. But they showed a bunch of costumes and mini games and things that we're going get fog. A carry on is the technical propelled reverse horror game is finally arriving PC switching xbox one and just two weeks. So feels, pence came onto analysis, which was fun Phil Spencer just making the rounds his press conferences. I. July twenty third is that release date as serious? Sam Four I showed another sneak peek of the PS ahead of its August release on stadia blight bound as an online and local multiplayer dungeon brawler, coming to St Early Access on July twenty ninth and Weird West is. Ice Of metric immersive Sim from the Co. creators of dishonored and pray, and it's due out in twenty twenty one. The showed up a little bit of that plus Britney. This is probably the most exciting part. Devolve Land Expo. Okay, so devolve wanted to take everything one step further. Of course you know why we can't have three. We can't make fun of E. Three two threes face so we're going to make a fake e three game where you can go around and see the show floor and go to booze and play Demos and. It actually looks pretty cool like what they were able to create is something that is both like tongue-in-cheek and parody, but also like you know this is actually pretty neat. Did anybody in the chat checkout? View this sensation of sleep deprivation, being hungry all the time and hung over That is a great question. I don't know if they if they did because I didn't play it. Personally I'm going to try to see if I can find some game play for you, but I doubt that they have somebody that will bring you a single chicken tender. Writer Day right here. You're that chat. You ever need something single chicken tender. Fix All your life's problems yep. Um So I'm trying to see if I can find some official game play because they don't want to show you guys somebody's. Okay Yeah I'm looking at this too I haven't even seen this yet. Let's see what this is all about. Oh my God. It's the convention hall. Oh, so they recreated it. Yeah so essentially here I'll show you guys a little a little bit of game play. A here you can see somebody walking into the south. Hall with at all. Black I mean this looks strikingly like the Los. Angeles Cash Center. I can see this gameplay coming from. Mr Rudd rivers in the bottom left hand corner. This is this is, this is wild. This is awesome X. This is really fun. Oh, my God and he had all the little booths setup. Bunk bunk go said I tried it. They're even more unannounced secret games in their interest seen. That's really awesome. I wanted to try to scrub a head here and see if I can find a little bit more allows my cursor there is let's see here. And there's some big boss at the end with a whole bunch of screens looks like consoles attached to it a turret. Let's Cue. To the North Hall. Nobody. North goes on North Hall. Just spoilers. There's nothing in the North Hall for three well. H- Okay so says you can explore. The fog is booth shadow warriors booth. Let's see describing a little bit more. Amazing! This is hilarious. Saw Imagine if there was actually a a fog. Is that a really three were? There was actually like people in those uniforms. That'd be so fun. Oh wait. What's something of that fire? This is shadow warriors booth Oh. Let me, see here continuing on. Hilarious. Oh, this is the boss. This is cool. Okay, so I I'm into that I. think that that's fun. I think any kind of like. Irony I had a very over the top cheeky direct, which very much was ripping off of what intendo is doing is wiped away because of what they did with. There you go. You've changed your mind, friends. And Stromberg reminds everybody that it's free on steam. Okay. Britney it's only eleven as Lord Eleven, forty nine. We gotTA keep moving on this story. Is a weird one. Friends, you might have some treasures that you don't even know about because you see a sealed copy of Super Mario. Bros sold for one hundred and fourteen thousand dollars becomes the most expensive video game ever this comes from Euro. Gamer sealed copy of super. Mario Bros has become the most expensive video game of all time after auction for an eye watering, hundred and fourteen, thousand, the nineteen eighty-five cartridge on Friday during a public auction, advantage, comics and art by the heritage auctions in Dallas Texas has been sealed for thirty five years. It's twenty nine bids pushed the final sale price beyond the previous record holder, one, hundred, thousand, one, hundred, fifty for another mint copy of Super Mario Bros.. Bros in February, twenty, nineteen, according to heritage auctions, the buyer wishes to remain anonymous so especially because it's the highest graded nine point, four of ten steel Super Marlboros game cartridge offered at public auction, and even retained original cardboard hang tab equality that makes it vintage collectors because that was shortly phase out after they initiated quote, it was part of one of the short production runs of the game packaging boxes with a cardboard hang tab underneath plastic, an indication that it was one of the first variants produced after Nintendo started using shrink wrapped to steal the games rather than stickers, so hey, France check your shit and it sounds like this game was actually found in someone's attic. It like it was just found there, and some obviously bought it for God about it, and that's why it has remained in the incredible condition that it's in therefore they able to sell it for one hundred and fourteen thousand dollars. That is absolutely bonkers. It's not just absolutely crazy. I mean like easy collectors. Are are unique breed of people. I just think of everything that could have been done. To help make people's lives better for that much money for that said, but instead they bought it so that they could have a sealed video game. Yeah, it's interesting. Obviously I feel like that game and it's somewhat rare. About is the fact that is one of the first prints of it or whatnot, but. It's Mario. Brothers right. It's all I. could some hard to come by game? So it's just it's kind of interesting how it feels like collectors. These rumor focused on getting the things that mean a lot to them from nostalgia perspective rather than a rarity thing, or maybe that's just like my little bubble of collectors, but something else that I thought was kind of interesting. IS THE PROJECT PLUTO? which was a sort of kind of sequel to the Saturn, and that never saw the light of day. There are only two of those ever made. One of them was auctioned off for eighty four thousand dollars. Wow, yeah I mean. And the don't forget the Sony or Nintendo, playstation I think is what it was called right? That's what people call. It sold for three hundred sixteen thousand dollars in March. I can't. I just can't even with this. I just can't even happens. CHECKER Games friends he might be rich and don't even know it. Exactly. Moving along I'm not gonna read this whole thing but I thought it was interesting to just kind of. Mention so you guys may have heard about the. V. C. S.? which is a kick started you know revival of an Atari console that is coming and I got a press release this morning about how they are teaming up with end. Dream AG to bring their cloud based gaming platform to air console to the upcoming Atari. Pc Council hybrid, thus launching this fall now bring this up because I would love to hear from anybody in the chat. WHO's very excited about this? Because when I looked into the details of the Atari, because I remember hearing about the announcement, and all of that, but I never looked at like how much it was going to cost somewhere I was like Oh was just. Just another like retro revivals, going to be like one hundred bucks play stuff on it, but then I was like I looked into it. I was like wait a minute. They're selling this thing for three hundred ninety nine dollars. What so I was like I needed to go. Look it so I. Have I have a little video here. They kinda shows a little bit about. What's happening with some voltage teasers so I think this is the games that are coming, and not actually the the the console itself. Let me pull up. A video of council, so you guys can see it, so so this was kick started and they raised over her. I think three million dollars. KICKSTARTER IN WAS INDIGO. Is this the project Andrea that we all talked about when he first launch? What's good and we thought it was absolutely ridiculous. That would probably never see the light of day, and even made a calendar reminder to remind us one year after we talked about it to see if ED launched. Is this that I believe that it is? A bill technically has not launched yet so the. Just you guys are aware. According to the press release here is designed to recreate the casual social gaming experiences of yesteryear before online gaming with standard air, council. Is a leg free? Wait hold on. That was a weird pause in the middle of the sentence. I think it was supposed to read designed to recreate the casual and social gaming experiences of yesteryear before online gaming was the standard period. Air, console, is the leg free cloud based virtual game service that will be accessible via the Atari. Dashboard, a single virtual console screen is shared the TV by the Atari. User smartphone functioning as gaming controller so that anyone can play without additional hardware, a wide variety of titles and genre are completely free to play more games than additional content available through the inexpensive air council hero subscription Ed, just another four ninety nine a month. Families and friends can get together to play from a perpetually growing that ll selection of over one hundred and fifty games, any many air console games use the advanced features unique to smartphones including displaying secret information. The gyroscope is used to play golf touchscreens to draw things, swipe gestures and more onscreen. You guys are seeing with the Council of this video that they launched. With their kickstarter that it's meant to represent this, like really beautiful piece of Retro Tech, and that's supposedly why it's so expensive, so it launches in the fall. The lineup of systems, bundles and peripherals can be seen at on available for preorder at Tarvisio Dot Com and of course at retailers like game stopped Walmart. The base which is eight gigabytes of Ram will retail for two, ninety, nine, ninety, nine, the all in system bundle, which includes the classic Joystick, which is of course avails available separately for fifty, nine, ninety nine. is going to be three, ninety, nine, ninety nine, and then, of course, the classic joystick and modern controllers were created a partnership with power a WHO's been in the peripheral game for a long time. So essentially what they are announcing today is that in addition to some of the Atari classics. You'll be able to play the YOU'RE GONNA? Have this subscription service available as well now? I just? I. Just don't I and it's probably because I'm not super into retro gains. In a world! Where the playstation five and xbox series x are both having digital versions of their console that are also launching in the fall, probably for the same price, if not more competitively priced. How do you justify you buying this now? Not as a caveat Brit that you can use the s if you install an operating system. But I would remind people that it only has eight gigabytes of Ram. And it only has thirty two gigabytes of internal storage. This is one of those things where I might not understand it, but I'm gonNA respected you. Do you friends? That yeah, I mean I love Retro Gaming but like. No. Just no, it's just it's just not for me. It's just not for me either and like I. Think I understand where they're trying to go and say like. Hey, you can use this as a gaming pc can't really though I mean not with those stats modular like it's designed to be like a piece of art. Right like they talk at length in the video and on the kickstarter. Indie Gogo about how like they put a lot of effort into making this look like a really beautiful piece that you want display on your media center. So I how I don't know man, it's just it's just a lot of money in like on top of that, adding another five dollars a month subscription service. If this is that same thing? They raised so much money. Like. You'd think they'd be able to slash the price. I duNno, whatever it's over my head, but like I said you. Do you friends? If this is something that flips up your skirt and gets, you're not going to say. I'm not going to do the sausage thing. Go on, so. Go, let it. Worry. It's interesting because in the Chad Deca Tron says I would rather invest in. That leaked Lego any ask for the sake of arts. Which? Way DECA Tron Shit because you see friends. Ligo teases any asset following leaked pictures. Few are John I don't know if this has been officially confirmed. Since I put, the show notes together, but I'll continue to read the story so lego replica of the Nintendo entertainment system appears to have leaked online leading lego tease an official launch on Social Media Fiji Gamer, which is different, different language, or it would have quitted. Them posted an article. Article earlier today, revealing the new set showing off the box, manual and individual pieces, the set consists of a CRTV plane world, one one from Super Mario Bros for the nintendo entertainment system, replica, console, and controller, and the Super Mario Bros. Cartridge, the full set contains two thousand, six hundred forty six pieces, making it quite a substantial build llego website Promo. Bricks is reporting that this set. We'll have a two hundred and twenty nine. Is? That powder euros Andrea I was getting confused. I was scrolling through the Oh those are euros, euros price say because it looks like an e there. Yes, okay so and I'll get into my little tangent here in a second, it's going to launch an August I alongside the previously released Lego. Super Mario Sets it looks like the set will also be compatible with the League of Super Mario. Kits revealed earlier this year. In particular, it appears at this leaked, so will interface with. With the adventures with Mario started course as one image shows the three Mario Toy sledded into the top of the CRT. The audio effect symbols and suggests that the character will be able to make sound augment the experience when the handle on the side of the box is turned and a response to the League, the official twitter account all, but confirmed the set with short Gif and the tagline over you ready to play like never before. And that's. Okay I I like to dinky around his legos from time-to-time I. Think is a fun little pastime in Hobby. I did not realize that these sets were so fucking expensive. Oh Yeah, girl! Oh Boy, oh, boy, like tutor, twenty nine year old I was like okay, but that's like and then I did try to my friend. Google and I was like how much USD is about two hundred and sixty dollars. That's crazy i. mean again you, do you? I'll? Probably buy one of these you so I mean I. I'm not into Lego collecting I like most people played with Legos as a kid and then have kind of. Gone by the wayside when Lego dimensions came out you know John and I messed around a little bit with that because I thought it was a really neat crossover choice alive concept, but I mean the friends of mine that I know that are really big into Lego. are like really big into Lego so I think it's really fascinating like Oh, building culture, and the artistry around it, and this is just an intersection of like a really cool piece of building toys, and then the Intendo, which you and I are both girls of. Great. SPAN THAT PRICE TAG! But. No one seems fazed by it. Let Looks Cool I. Don't know I feel like that. Price Tag for a collectible is not that much, and I can't talk because he. Knows by collector's editions like they're going out of style. I didn't even know that I bought goose. Gook. Goes of Sushi collector's edition I forgot all about it until I got an email reminder so clearly I have no problem dropping money on collector's editions or cool things, but I think if Legos I just think of little kids toys like I used to play with that I was younger, but no I know it's much more than that. I think it's the fact that it's like it's a little mini here. I'll show. You guys the picture again from this website. It's like A. It's a little. It's a little mini TV with like the little console and the controller like I mean it's really it's really cool. It's really cool. Yeah, I'm into it I feel like I have to get this now day. It'd be a good at home project Oh. Boy. We ain't going anywhere. Yes it would wait. Hold on all the phone the LEGO twitter. The LEGO. Twitter may have teased it. Yeah let's let's look they did that. was that was the final sentence of the story? I didn't see video Brit a little. Little, thing, little thing here, it's a little gift. Real Mu Yeah. Oh, I, really! I really want it. You went from like. Why do people pay for these things like okay I'm getting it. Yeah, this is shot Bobby. Secret shock me, but I'm like okay well. It's video game related, and it's a collectible. It's Kinda like falls right. My little diagram should able by yeah. Maybe that's maybe that's what it is. For the Atari, she s for people. Maybe that thing falls into the diagram of Shit people will spend a lot of money for yeah, that's the point. All right well. I guess that's it collectors. GonNa Collect is what you're trying to say. Yeah. All right well. Let's just for a few minutes here. Talk about some things that people wrote in for dear WGC as a reminder to everybody watching us live on twitch, listening on your favorite podcast APP or on youtubecom. You guys can write to us at what's the Game Dot com slash? Dear WG if you've got questions about what's happening in the news or anything that. That, we've played or any of the thing that you want us to consider answering on the show. And Scott wrote in, and says happy. Monday ladies assassin's creed Fall Hala in cyberpunk twenty seventy seven are coming out two days apart as they have both align themselves with Xbox as far as marketing goes. Have they basically told us when the XBOX series x will launch wishing? Done done. I think that's a very fair assumption Scott. Yes, I think that we know that we're going to get the consoles either like the last week of October or the first couple of weeks of November as we've discussed on the show previously, it doesn't make sense for them to launch to close to black Friday because they want to make sure to give retailers enough time to get their displays set up and to get online ordering. Ordering plays if we're still going strong in the pandemic during Black Friday times, and so they don't WanNa launch it too close to black Friday so I think that they also want to make sure that people are able to get their hands on copy of the console ahead of black Friday. so I think that it makes sense that the game was gonna come out either the first or second week of November I think. The system as cool 'cause they're saying is going to be lit. I think that's what they're still saying. And, then leading into that, our last question comes from JP Maya. Would you preorder your new consoles? Be shipped to your home or preorder for pick up in store I worry about in-store pre orders because who knows if they will shut things down if they get worse us a really good point and holiday, but I worry about having it shipped because ups. USPS has their own share. Issues lately was wondering. Wondering what your thoughts are. Oh, I think about that historian. Our patron streams yesterday. That was one of our questions. Like. How do you guarantee you get? A new console will really can't kind of have to be right? Play right place right time. Get Your preorder and I tend to go into the physical stores because I like do the midnight launch the energy at midnight launches I, think they're great. yeah I forgot. Pandemic is happening and who knows if those stores will still be open to November. Maybe we'll do Andrea is all Jason Order on Amazon for him, and then I'll order through best buy for me. Yeah I will never order from Amazon again for Gaming Content Oh. You Get burnt. Yes, I've been burned by Amazon multiple times since I will not do it, and it's just. The problem is like the way that Amazon does. Fulfillment is just. It's it's Wonky. And there's really no rhyme or reason to it, and the frustration of thinking that you have a confirmed order, and then not being confirmed or being cancelled. It's just something that I cannot tolerate with the new consoles, and so I'm GonNa, go with a retailer that I've had a lot better luck with I'm with a lot of people in thinking that I would prefer to go and pick this up, so I'll probably look at retailers that allow me to place the order online, and then we'll allow me to come and pick up. Up My order day of and I have to imagine by November. I have to imagine that we will have better. Social distancing practices in place across the country where they say hey, your pickup time is between here and here and everybody is x amount of feet apart, and everything's clean and that way. There's not this giant lineup of people scrambling to get stuff. It'll be okay. Did you place your order? Advances already paid for come in. Bring your receipt and pick it up. I. Feel like that's like the win. That's the way I wanNA. Do. It's hard to believe s just a few months away. Hey can't wait no more loading times. Oh my God! Can you imagine a world? Where loading times, I can, I can imagine Britney. Here. I'm alright friends. That's all we've got four today. Thank you so much for joining us on. What's Good Games live? We will be back with another episode on Friday. And yes, there will be impressions about ghosts social. So if you've got questions about ghosts in, you want our team to answer them. You know you gotTA. Send them. What's who gives dot com slash W. G., and we will do our best to get to as many questions as possible, but that will be the focus of the hands on for this Friday's episode. Miss Anything Brit. Great? You did a really great job. Andrea I'm just I? Yeah, thanks, thanks for it, and this is your last friendly reminder to turn notifications on for TV was games because sometimes I feel like streaming like last week. I needed to test some things out, so I played destiny with Rana and regimen and solid snake off lot and a bunch of other guardians for like six hours. It happened. Did you do all the things? Did you do all the dungeons and I did one dungeon okay. But, I'm all the dungeons. Doing all the dentists on a single might would be a lot. Yeah, it would take a long time. Don't do that, but we've been talking about doing. Almost all of the rates are all of the raids so rain. Spreads rates. Not to be confused with royds true and I have some animal crossing streaming that I wanna do as well so anyway. Turn Out! All right that's going to do it for us. We'll see you later bye!

Judith Scheindlin Andrea UBISOFT caffeine Brittany Britney Hala Nevada twitter Youtube California Giancarlo No. Weiner Atari Darby McDevitt Disney UB Amos Theresa Steiner twenty twenty Kirkland
Virginie Levasseur  La passion pour le dveloppement international

Papa Phd Podcast

55:24 min | 1 year ago

Virginie Levasseur La passion pour le dveloppement international

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Eric Bischoff and 2019 Hall of Fame inductee Torrie Wilson

The Jim Ross Report

2:05:01 hr | 1 year ago

Eric Bischoff and 2019 Hall of Fame inductee Torrie Wilson

"The most trusted choice in professional wrestling more than four decades behind the mic Raynham simple with unrivalled success in broadcasting from ringside to the board room to the New York Times bestsellers list patching and site with his sharp tongue and more. They'll listen Westwood One podcast network presents the Jim Ross reports. WWE hall of Famer Jim Ross and now the man himself noodle JR. Yes. Indeed. Ladies and gentlemen. Slobber? Knocker audio is on your air. And I thank you for that. I am JR. Jim ross. Glad you're joining us here. Whether it be on the Westwood One app. Apple podcast, Google podcast, Spotify, tune in Stitcher, or wherever the hell, you get your audio. There's a z and places out there. Right. We also freaked leaving us a five star rating that helps us at the grocery store. Also, my you're welcome following on Twitter wish you would at JR s BBQ and I'm on Instagram Facebook as well at Jim Ross BBQ mailbag later today. Got some good news for you this week from some new folks are chiming in the gym Russia fort at g mail dot com. I two guests today to. Very entertaining. Guests with a lot to say very timely the new member to the two thousand nineteen hall of fame class Tory. Wilson one of my signees back in the day will be joining us along with the reckon tour emphasis Eric Bischoff. Who's in Chicago this week got a big show Conrad Thompson, and Tony shivani there? I think this weekend check that out and we're talking to air about that. And about his Tony show on the Monday afternoon after wrestlemainia near the Barclay center. So bought a lot of talk about their so two great guests a lot on their mind as I mentioned and those folks momentarily wanna thank the New York Post. Their sports editor Joe says, whiskey he interviewed me this week the New York Post. I'm also supposed to be doing feature recorded it outside the lines on ESPN. Recorded me last week, the store got bumped for some other news this scandal the college tuition scandal, which I'll assure you that ninety eight seven Americans could give a damn about. But any event outside the lines is coming out. I'll try to keep you informed that on social media, and I'll also be distributing link to the New York Post a nice teeth there. Joe? Nice young man, very bright, very well prepared. So I appreciate his time. But lettuce gentlemen, that ain't all that. Ain't all because here's what's on my mind. Kick it off with a little Monday night, raw one way to measure, the productivity or the on target creativity in execution. They're off of a wrestling show is how it goes off the air. You can also say that same dissertation that how I show comes on the air is equally as important. I would agree with that. But glowing off the air is essential is not an option. And I didn't think that the way that brawl went off the air where again a music interruption causes the decision of match to be determined. It happens over and over again interrupt distraction. Scrooge up interrupt distraction screwed up. I have a big problem with trying to protect everybody on the roster is not a game of protection. It's a game of execution. If you can execute well, and you're giving the tools to execute. Well, there's absolutely no reason that a loss. Over a talent that is already quote unquote over is going to significantly damage the persona of that individual. Seth Rollins has made you look silly. Is beside was not on display. Their set is a magnificent athlete. We all can see that in his match lesser wrestlemainia. No doubt can be a classic. But you can't make your baby faces your fan favorites your heroes. Your protagonists look dumb and get them over to the top of the mountain. Can you imagine Austin a rock? Following for that music, interrupt piece of business? No because it wouldn't happen. Pernet impressed with the form thrown by as Travis Brown, a rugged USA fighter back in his day. And the husband around arouse -i that was that foreign shot was a dandy. All layer big fellow nice. Nice going. I liked it. I said it's the most going to show. He's been a guest in the show. Drew mcintyre. I still believe is going to be the guy. He has to many of the traits personality fiscal traits that centered cetera that Vince McMahon covets. And I can see a summer slam match involving let's say Seth Rollins if he beats Brock Lessner and drew McIntyre. I don't think as much as I would enjoy seeing it. I don't know what the fee would be in the in the room, shall we say if you looked a listener match with withdrew might be fine because all the stories told right? Hey, I want to tell you. I have no issues Barron. Corbin I think he's got a lot of potential. I think he is significant and in visible upside is just not there yet. That's not a knock. But the issue that I said on Twitter at JRS BBQ that I was underwhelmed with each of opponents for Kurt Angle's retirement match had nothing to do the ability the work ethic, the passion of performing of Barron. Corbin nothing not even the same time zone. It has everything to do with how you honor Kurt angle blowing out everything that can be done from position on the card at wrestlemainia. You know, who's following who's falling? What going, you know, how you look into match the outcome of the match and the and the opponent of the match is all a part of the presentation. And I thought that WW could might have done a better job of selecting somebody else. And they still might who knows? I don't know. That's not that's not unfathomable idea. But let's say it's going to be corporate incurred do everything he can to make it special, but it could have been made more special. It was somebody that was more tenured, and and was perceived by the audience as more quote, unquote, over I just think the angle deserves every thing that he can be provided to make his retirement match meaningful and memorable. He deserves that I don't know if you can get there with Kurt angle versus Barron. Corbin moon on smackdown alive didn't want overwhelm the show. Except for the last segment. A great close a great close with the the world's greatest villain. Mr McMahon coming out after Kofi gone through hell and high water what barefoot the hellfire and brimstone from God's sakes and said, you know, you didn't quite qualify. Unchanging my mind I've actually heard that before. So. I thought it was a great close Vince was on spot on he's the most national villa in the company still and all that having all with the attitude era. Can you imagine the impact of the attitude era on resting in general is amazing? And now they have been a time set back a look at it. I'm really proud of what we all in during the attitude era, but another roadblock thrown in front of Kofi the ultimate underdog. Right. It's all about a citizen the show so many times Jolie. He's bitter. He's whatever. Okay. Cool like what you want? I don't care. I can't change minds wash care. I learned a long time ago kids, you the less time, you worry about things that you cannot control the better off. You are just makes common sense. But I can't. Yes, you can. But no, I know you have to. It's a great episodic television cliffhanger so to speak. What's going to happen next is Kofi going to finally make it's wrestlemainia? What's it gonna take? It's a sports entertainment soap opera element that the WWE is parlaying which shows me because I think this that they are engaged in significant longer term planning than here to four in my eyes. That is a good thing. About the pull apart was Charlotte. And Becky they should have been if they're going to have a pull apart. There should not have been a word said Kevin Owens could introduce some Guinness little his rhetoric in get a stick in getting over because he got over in a segment, and they went about him about them. That's not great producing. So bottom line. What if what if he's back right hindsight's twenty twenty? What if Kevin got all his stuff in introduces the ladies, they come in Becky setting there introduce I hear Charlotte preening around and boom it's on then no promo though this or that. No, no, nothing. Let's fight now and you in because the company would be on edge of this dental implosion you'd have plenty of security on hand nearby. So to speak. To not allow the poll park to go onto long, which it did in my opinion. A little bit goes a long way. And I just didn't like the execution of it. As far as it was just scheduled for too long in my view. Just one guy's opinion. Surly a good night. Great night for Kofi Kingston, other than the announcing from Michigan, man. But covy great effort. He didn't get sloppy. He got fatigue, which is always the great excuse for any kind of miscue. But Kofi was Crist professional really had a good night. So, hey, look is it inevitable that covy is going to make it a wrestlemainia. I think so. It's promoting the world that couldn't hear and see the Kofi Kingston is lightning in a bottle. He's Daniel Bryan version two. From back in the day. Wrestlemainia by the way is two weeks away or something I think you live matches are have been released. Let's go be massively long show as well. Could imagine got a little longer when he lies named the musical guest. There's got to be something more to that. Right. Here's what I'm interested in. I mean, I'm interested in what the proposed a lot of match times are going to be and the order of. Going to be interesting. They'll be some maneuvering. On that on that deal. Sean talents involve have say, and they'll add their two cents as to why they should go on where they should go. You have producers who forbidding a match together that near the match now. So wonderful that it should go on here there it shouldn't follow that. And some of those are very good suggestions because once you north of matches going to allay out now you for Doucet, then you can make more customized in the order events. So I just think that's gonna be really interesting match time. 'cause inevitably our promise you now there will be more or two are maybe the more hopefully, not matches bitching and moaning because they didn't have the time to tell their story. I would want admit that. Oh won't tell him by that. I I want to admit the fact that my skill said is not good enough to have a eight minute match. And they said, well, wait, we were told we're going to have ten we've got at six. Okay, ad-lib you shouldn't have to Mirage your whole damn match. Anyway. Makes no sense. It's no spontaneity in that. So the battery oil, well, it's a good way to get Braun strowman on the show in a fiscal way show his prowess. He's kind of being rebuilt. He got he got colder an ice in the last couple of months, and my view based on where he was. And it's also the way that a lot of talents can get a booking on wrestlemainia, which I know means a lot to everybody and it should. So if it's a way to access that mesh go in the free game show. I don't know when it's going to go on. I don't even have some close show that'd be more political wrangling. What's going to close the show? My vote would be rows E, Charlotte and Becky. But I got a feeling that the the late the late horse in the race is gaining ground is going to be lesser and Rollins. And that could be a hostile situation if listener Rollins closed the show and the in the women who would probably go on before them tear the damn house down. How do you think that leisure in Rollins are going to be received emotionally from that crowd? He know exactly how it's going to be. They saw the came to see. And now, there's a little bit indifferent. And that's not how you closed show. Remember us talking about that? How you close the show? How you go out. There is extremely important. So a lot of interesting facets to wrestlemainia and the in Li it'll be wonderful. No doubt about it. Everybody gets good weather right condolences to the family of former NWEA champion. Roger kirby. I didn't really know I've met Roger couple times back in the seventies. He'd beat Danny Hodge for the end of gate title. At one point. Really underrated guy. Roux talented would be one of the top talents in in the business right now based on his skill set fundamentals and so forth. And and the psychology so our condolences to the family of Roger Kirby. And I was doing research. Sour Kirby said that Danny Hodge. The toughest man a year. Wrestle a lot of guys that said that so condolences to the family Willis Kirby, aka Roger Kirby, passing this fast Monday at the age of seventy nine. Here's your story man, he fell three weeks ago and broke his hip in the hospital. They discovered that he had staged for pancreatic cancer. Good lord. He contacted then he contractor new Monja and died Monday, man, that's losing two straight falls in God, blessing blessing. That's why I'm getting I'm going to remove my bathtub in my master bathroom and put in the world's largest shower. Cadence exaggeration, of course, not but oversight shower steam on a good stuff because I don't want. My my aging asked to fall break my hip in a bathtub. If you're an old dude, you don't need to be bathing water anyway. Hey, I heard you know, a big proponent of the call for Allie club, big supporter, Colorado club dot org. Go under site. Look at all the things they do for they help a lot of people really that need need need it. And I'm happy to be farther organization called foul the club dot org. A so where dean Ambrose is going to be there. This year, my buddy Mark interest getting another major award. So some fun stuff coming out of Las Vegas, AJ style sounded new contract and WWE. I'm sure that's our seven figures, plus. That'd be a million dollars to you, folks. Like me that maybe the huddle health their math. I know that I believe that tonight a million dollars downside guarantee. For a talent means that talent got nineteen thousand two hundred thirty two or twenty three something a little over nineteen grand a week. You can go the grocery on that. I see I don't know if it's confirmed or not the gallows and Anderson are not going to resign W. I would think go back to new Japan eight of you good team underutilized. But you say that about a lot of tag teams. It's just not been a focus. It does seem important. It doesn't seem important on television. These days. Really proud for Suzy Aitchison. She got the hall of fame announced on of the hall of fame this year. She won the warrior award. I was there when the warrior presented that concept. I sitting in the audience. In all respect respective wasn't. Quite sure what he said. It was over. I understand the motive that to honor those that are not in front of the camera all the time behind the scenes contributors. There is no bigger behind the scenes contributor in WW Aitchison. Or thirty years in the company, and she's just a mazing woman. She's Wales so train her accent mine either one of those understand down thing the other set as a real. I think quite frankly, this is the fifth warrior award. Maybe a phone further review. It should be the sue Aitchison award. Just say Lacey ever, sit a nice interview with Lilian Garcia Lilian podcast about a week ago. Severi revealing stuff like lacy she she has everything I mentioned, I met her at the may young the first million classic. She is perfect as far as all the publicity, the PR the information being the marines, a mom, blah, blah, blah. All great, really, all great. She statuesque. She's beautiful woman. She's physical. But every time she comes out and all the women the ring stop everything they're doing is another say, we're dumb. We just saw this last week. We're gonna fall for it again. It just illogical. Okay. Me once. Okay. Fool me twice. Oh, all right. Fill me. Three times. Are you kidding? So lacy Evans is a great prospect is she hits her full potential. She's going to be big time. But she doesn't get back in the ring. And and wrestling wrestling wrestle. Maybe she is. I don't know. I don't I have heard about her own road anything until she gets back in the ring, and spins her time understanding the foundation more more understanding the fundamentals she can't she can't achieve that potential. I enjoyed last week on the fight half. Watching the ring of honor seventy anniversary pay per view. Good show enjoyed it. The ready for the sixty minute main event, but we got there. That's the first time I left as I take me going to the bathroom during the middle of a match is like a wrestling company. Taking breaks commercial breaks in the middle of of a match. It reeks of we're we're Broadway. Play. It doesn't attached to. Hey, we're a sport quasi little crazy. But we're sport. And we don't leave the game in the middle of action. To sell cereal. Good job ring of honor to deny she good show. Didn't have any technical issues whatsoever. The fight at where to go all you need is a smart device in WI fi. You got everything you need. I saw where an I'm gonna be in town. But I don't think I'm gonna go. The ring of the I'm going to be going to the bus at open anniversary show. I believe after my show on Saturday Lawler myself, ho Sarria, noon, I saw the garden would very intriguing match-up. This a ladder match for the arch world title, Jay, lethal taken and one of my favorite smartest, girl. Now, did I say enough good enough for some dick heads the villain? See I was so is his last name rhymes with girl. Shirl skirl. No spread you. Ladder match. That'd be that'd be mar investor known. Those guys are I nowadays and the hallowed halls Madison Square Garden expect greatness. To bet sold out. You can't get a ticket. But I'll sure if you had the money you can get a ticket. Major league wrestling doing well, get all of those dudes imail w tickets dot com. They're going to be and they Melrose ballroom in queens on April fourth and fifth. So check that out. They'll have big crowds so hot. It's a hot product right now. M L W tickets dot com. Impact? Now, they're gonna re entered into an agreement with Lovie wtrw service official developmental and training facility territory to get guys ready for the next level. Great idea else. No will is a hell of a trainer Lovie w is an excellent school. I think it's a good marriage. I just hope that they are also footing. Equal work and preparation and had the same good fortune as finding a television partner as they have a developmental territory partner on the a w front the young bucks to the Lucia brothers. Pentagon and Racine IX for the triple eight world tag team titles. We could go down to Mexico big win. Hey, they should have that one. That could have that match rematch at in Las Vegas. That'd be nice. Good to her is really good. By the way, if you haven't been listening to the weekly road to double or nothing show on the way of it is funnier inhale. The the audio message by Chris Jericho to Cody. In the last episode check it out on YouTube in special and social media. It's a great weekly show road to double or nothing. Got creativity. I give that man I'll give them that. My friend, Dan mcdevitt company. NCW pro wrestling down in Maryland, they're going to spring fever events. Untold. Sure. My man, Sean cradle will be there as well. With special guest, Corey graze and Rene YoM. Where Rene will be getting a net tattoo as well. That's gonna take place on March thirty first in Joppa in Joppa. She's not getting a neck tech to undis- kidding. But enjoy that great wrestling brand. Pedantic team, by the way Cigna, Dan, his team, I wanna say get well too ill. She w bruiser RJ Meyer, by the way in his battle with the Kimia. There's a goal fund me page as been set up under bruisers battle with leukemia. Roosters battle with leukemia. Any health that you feel compelled to help wrestler? For the love of our game. He could use anything they'll medical bills Roosters battle the Kimia. Great 'cause give back folks if it's a dollar. It's important. The big man the biggest mayor in the world. I guess. The big red machine who barbecued me one time on television. Lind's acres, aka canes. Finding a November released a book called mayor Kane my life in wrestling and liberty. Hearkens back to the days of ABRAHAM LINCOLN that wrestler became president. Oh, by the way, if you're a fan of Kenny O mega from new Japan. Now Awa the documentary involving Kenny we'll be airing on TSN Canada later this month. It's going for free MIR next Wednesday March twenty seven to be exact at seven thirty eastern time. So check that out. I I can't wait to get a copy of that myself. I like documentaries documentaries lot. Congratulations, my friend. They very very talented Maggie great. She's a part of the team the outstanding team WFAN Radio, New York Carlin Maggie and mart afternoon show. She's pregnant, congratulations. Maggie. It'll be a beautiful baby. No doubt about it. Hope to hope I get the chance of Salo while I'm in New York a couple of weeks. And coming down ho stretch here on here's what's on my mind. Remember Slava knockers velvet, Amazon dot com hardcover web book e-book where we call. It shows you how smart I am and the audio book, which I read and hope you check out Amazon dot com. Alvie signing books books all were shows in New York coming up New Jersey, I'll be selling and signing books for your convenience led to see you know, we're doing more comic cons in two thousand nineteen. That's a plan. If you're interested in us, showing up your comic con, and and helping you and you helping us forty and low teamwork that we can contact Rafeal morphine. He's on Twitter at our more in west see at M O, R F NYC. Arkan emails at the to the gym Rosh afforded to mill dot com. Dough w shos got my food products. Appreciate their support of that. And also Ingles markets in the southeast of the country. Saw I've got a nice fictious by that got some JR's in Georgia. The other day at Ingles store. Appreciate you guys. You're pitchers, and you're kind of words on product. It's almost my mother. My late wife, they were the brain child behind this product. I'd like to keep it alive for them beyond. So you said all judges make more money. Well, you know, you'd be surprised. It's a it's a it's a it's a passion product, quite frankly. And I like to taste what I tasted grownup. So what? Sunday morning wrestlemainia, I'm gonna join the guys to manpower trip. I got a great podcast, by the way at two men power trip on Twitter at the Midland plaza hotel. And I think that's at ten o'clock. Tune o'clock in the morning to to maybe. So anyway tickets available at on Twitter at the P tickets. Let's go to at BP tickets on Twitter and check out how to get your tickets should be a lot of fun. I against social media net. Those graphics lot of talent there that I hadn't seen so long. It's going to be probably more unique signing the whole weekend. And it's a good time to Sunday morning ten you're not going to you're going to wrestlemainia. You're cool. You're good shape on time. And of course, Monday night after all after all, can you imagine what the the tuna tenor is going to be worse. Tickets are still available, but they're moving well, and we're really happy for that. And thank you for it flows. Bought tickets money not after all about it's about a midnight show. Conrad Thompson Bruce frittered myself. I I'm ever. All three of us that guys stage gather watch out for flying chairs. And it's the murmur theater in Brooklyn less than a mile for the Barclay center. Tickets on sale net, of course, the world famous. Bruce, frittered dot com and ticket fly dot com. So we're looking forward to that big crab big room or seven hundred seats. So we'll see how much we'll see if we can pack. It helps us out. Join us after all I'm then the following weekend. I'm going to be one of those. 'cause you're talking about a great one to still city-khan in Monrovia, -fensive engines outside Pittsburgh. I'll be there on Friday. The twelfth Sunday. The fourteenth information, it's still city con dot com. I talked about college valley club that group also back in Vegas and the Memorial Day weekend doing a variety of things specifically at star cast to the nineteen eighty nine discussion with RIC flair and Ricky steamboat should be precious for all of us. I can't wait to experience that and say the twinkling her is talk about that those three matches that will hold up with anybody omega Okada, great as slowly great. Did it blow flair and steamboat away? No. Get serious. No. So I'll be out there that the king, and I going to be out there, and it star cast to doing a Q and A should be a blast blasted quite frankly, you know, I don't have any more of these got Innis of are different. You know, I'm not going to be a WW guy for many more hours. And I don't know how that's going to his schedule or our mind but nonetheless Jonas memorial weekend. And for all miss you want man, just hop onto star cast dot com. Low to see in Las Vegas star cast dot com. Check it out all the packages. They got travel packages got hotel packages is going to be the most amazing arrays of talent. I personally have ever been affiliated with and I I'm going to enjoy it. I know you will as well memorial weekend Memorial Day weekend in Las Vegas star. Cast dot com is for you. Find all your tickets and all your mation low to see you there. And I'll also going to be any Cincinnati northern Kentucky area coming in June June six thirty June six the Florence freedom. Minor league baseball club Florence Kentucky. Florence freedom dot com. Got all your mation forints freedom dot com. Thursday, June six. See they're baseball fans. Dan gave a museum. Yes, sir. I'll be there. I'm gonna host the Bank with this year miss last year because of my work duties. Which almost luxury moronic that I really work shooter man, come on figuring shooters, just great segue, right? At wrestling museum has your information to be a part of the Luther says, George Trig is professional wrestling hall of fame. Induction is July twenty five twenty seven all kinds of packages available. Great family event, and the I can't wait to see the new the new facility and all the renovations been going on low that place is it's a if you're wrestling fan. You haven't ventured soldiered were your way to Waterloo. I promise you, you're missing some. And finally for those of ask in, you know, my contractor w ends on Friday, March twenty ninth twenty six amazing years really so blessed so fortunate to be there when I was to be given an opportunity to grow as a professional as a minister and as broadcaster. So I can't think the McMahon family for that. And you know, the old sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart. I was very lucky that I was there when the company was a struggling privately owned company to going public with a one hundred sixty million dollar IPO, and then being able to enjoy many years of stock grants and options, which what's obviously nail down and and establish and confirm my my future financially for Jan. Me. And so I that's part of the story here. I don't like being alone. I don't like being an empty house. Maybe I need to buy a dog or cat. Yeah. Get it. But it's not as easy as that. So I need to be a need to be around people. And I need to be busy hints Paulo Brown. I writing another book. And and you know, we're working this podcast idea. Conrad we're gonna we're definitely going to do podcast together. Just on the one going to start or what is going to be called? But probably sometime after wrestlemainia I'm excited about that as much as I've ever been excited about anything I've ever done in the podcasts world. But I really believe that. I I don't sit at home. I think my life's extended. By being busy and around positive people and busy people and people the destination. Everybody needs a destination. Folks, everybody needs a destination. And for me that's getting out of my house and staying busy. What I want? I want to thank Vince McMahon's family. They were fair with me. And we didn't always agree. And I think he loved that. We we didn't always have. I didn't. I wasn't a yes, man. But I was a company man and always had his back. No matter if I liked it or not that was my job. So I learned so much there in I I just wanna stay in the game ONA be in the business. I love I want to go out and do shows talk about it on a podcast about it. And I wanna broadcast about it. It's been my license. I was a teenager sixty seven full of piss and vinegar. So retirement is not an option whatsoever. Staying busy is I'll keep you posted. And that ladies and gentlemen, is what's on my mind. She's always been an amazing woman. And we were just talking going on the air here. Tori Wilson came we hired her in two thousand one from WCW in quite frankly because the lay of the land in because talent in our youth or look she was a huge get for us. And I was really happy. We got we were able to sign her and Tori Wilson's where this here today going to the hall of fame. I gotta say congratulations on really really proud of you. How much were you surprised? You got the call. I was actually Mark for call. And I was on a retreat in Sedona, and I've had just calling me to you know, to to invite me to go watch the show, and he kinda threw me for for a little loop there. Yeah. Definitely surprised. The anytime anybody's induct into the hall of fame and largely because WWE and they make the biggest deal hall of fame. I'm went in two thousand seven very proud of it. I don't look at it. As a token deal. Look as a gimmick, you know, so much. How can you be serious about the hall of fame JR, the only member building? Well, I don't I don't know what that means. I'm not an architecture. But the issue is for those of us that have gone to the highest level of our business, which is WWE to enter the hall of fame to me is a big deal. Never never realized how much of a big deal. It was until I felt it like, I just I didn't you know, real. I've had fan say oh, someday, you'll be in the hall of fame, and it just never really thought it would happen. A and I just really like it's I've had so many emotional moments. Just thinking back because you know, for me, especially because I never really wanna championship. I never felt like I dunno. If loves the right word, but I just I feel appreciated and you know, there's no feeling like that. I feel like everybody in every area of of whether you're a wrestler, or you know, painter. We should I don't get this moment and be appreciated. It's just really feels good bars for people that are building relationships as well. I had a twenty five year more than actually friendship out of best friend, and I married her. Those moments. Are you know, they're they're the captivating their heart warming their heartbreaking sometimes. But man, those relationships she taught me how to be a better man, and how to respect a relationship better than any any experience. I had in my life. So all these things you're you're involved in some really cool things. Tell us what you're doing because you're not really waist-deep in right now. You know, you're you don't also your name all the comic cons and all the wrestle cons the cons. And all that stuff. What are you? What are some of the great works that you're doing because I know that they're they're tell us about those. I'm just trying to my best to use the steps from my past to create a future. Think a lot of times where we get tripped up is we hold onto long to our path and don't forge a new chapter, and, you know, a big thing growing up, and you know, I had an eating disorder when I was in high school in college, and, you know, always kind of battled self confidence issues, and you know, even in the WWE e-, it was like a battle of constantly feeling. Like, you know, you're not good enough. And my biggest thing is that. I just feel like everybody deserves feel competent and good about themselves. So, you know, health and fitness has always been a huge, you know, deal for me mind body old. You know, how we think about ourselves staying positive is equally important as exercising and my goal is just to get people feeling like they are the shit because. Everybody deserves that. And it always trickles down into all other areas of our lives. If we don't like who we see in the mirror, we accept just mediocre relationships. We, you know, we find ourselves in friendships were not being valued affects lots of different areas. And you know, I just I more than anything I feel for the guy and the girl out there that has no confidence that scared to walk into a gym that thinks that they don't have what it takes to reach for their dreams and just to give them a boost and help them find that person that isn't side of them already and make them bigger, b basically to be their own superhero. Important to enhance the ones self esteem. Because if we don't respect ourselves folks, and we don't have self esteem don't be naive enough to think others are going to give it to you. If they see you don't have it. You know, it's not gonna work. So I that's one of the message. I get from you know, your your own social media. You people can read what you do that can see what you do. Oftentimes. I I'm always I've been amazed the older I get and then being a widower things like these retreats where you're working on your self esteem. And you're you're working on your communication skills. Really has interested me more since Jan got killed. And then did prior to that, which is unfortunate to say. But at least I'm being truthful, I think important thing to remember is usually it's like the worst time in our life where we just can't hardly scrape ourselves up off the floor that can create a flower. Our and it's it's hard to admit it. It's hard to see it. But they create something innocent that is very valuable and can help other people as long as we're willing to open our eyes to it. Just like you. Jan was such an amazing human, and she's surely an amazing angel right now for you. And you know, there are a lot of people out there that are have lost someone, and they don't know they don't know who to turn to. And maybe just seeing what you're writing on social media is helping them get through their day. And there's just something really special about that. I know that my issues of bills palsy, and I have had at three times. I can't smile still got a I got a tenth grade granddaughter in seventh grade granddaughter that never seen grandpa smile, except in pitchers big deal that could write a country song for God's sakes. Toby keith. But the issue is that's the hand I was dealt. So now, what are your options? Well, you can absorb it and deal with it. And let it go or you can get yourself back up and live a better day. So I I really believe that this self esteem things is a huge deal. And that's fixed of the segue here on the locker room when I was in charge of talent. I was very proud of the fact that I was given a mandate by thence to get more women that are athletes and beautiful smart. The the older slogan. Smart sexy and powerful. That's what he wanted at one time. It was like could she this girl? You're looking at Gerry because she'd be on the cover of playboy. Well, yeah. So that was kind of yardstick kind of crazy to say today based on what we're seeing today in w the women's wrestling revolution toward their athletic as hell there is a mazing what they how they raise the game. And I don't want to knock any of our girls that we had the attitude era. But what some of these cats are they prepared for this. Moment for them. I think largely because of what they watched on television. And so you Trish and lead a jazz. Jackie Moore and ivory all these ladies. Lisa Marie, even dawn. Don, Marie came in and made a gutter self over and she wasn't a trained quote wrestler. She was personality the head of mid personality. And we she also was a very attractive woman. So that was that was a challenge for me, it kind of squeeze me a little bit on my philosophy. I always thought that, you know, we'll get a real a great condition athletic a woman. That's Greg give we can give a makeover. Alvin say that I would love how the hair concession W guy. You can make a fortune. So what do you see you've been around a little bit here in and out? But what do you see the big difference in two rosters? Funny. I was actually talking to somebody about this the other day that only new wrestling just kinda from the outside and their perspective. And it was really interesting because during my time there really wasn't a ton of women before us kind of showing the way. So we were kind of like learning as we go like just like you were saying like, you know, visit talking for ten, but he wants them to be able to wrestling all of that. So we kind of like started creating our own thing. And a lot of the girls that are there now where young obviously, not age ourselves. But they were watching us and watching us just getting in the ring enough and wanting to be that, and whereas before we pretty much I know for myself, I learned in front of all the fence like I was thrown out there. You know? Of course, I showed up early in practice. But basically, I was learning in front of the fans and his girl today. I have really paid their dues, you know, in wrestling school for a long time and exte- they're they're coming out of that their first day in WWE is there on fire already. They know what they're doing. They're already trained and really good at what they're doing. So there's no stopping them. And it's just so I watched the show for the women these days and the old lady part of me goes. Wow, Charlotte is she going to be able to walk when she's forty. You know there. She's a good example. She's amazingly athletic. She's a division one athlete. You know, she's a in the elevated class like rows, you know, Ron arouses a world class athlete, and I get a kick out of the fact that she and Becky during this very creative thing on Twitter, and that some fans actually that they're out of control, and that they are gone into business for themselves. Now, you know, as well as I know how often do you go into business for yourself with this investment man's company? Not off about two minutes. So I say that they're tweets are creative. And they're they're they're making their point. They're keeping their name out there. I went on a deal. The other day said on social media that it's amazing to me that the women in WWE are dominating social media from running there's angles or storylines their appearances new gear, whatever it may be the keeping their image alive and continue to build a brand. Whereas guys only one show you pitching to their ads. Oh, God bless you. Behalf because you know, at sets them up for whatever they choose to do later in life. Unfortunately, we can't be wrestlers are entire life. Our bodies just not gonna let us, and you know, letting people in on your life. Really, I it makes them care. Exactly. And the women have got the get it. And they go to the extra effort to make sure that those misses are distributed in a timely and affective manner the guys so these guys are doing the same spots. Same comeback the same build up the comeback the same way to lose everything. Nothing changes because they've found their comfort zone. I think it's fixed back to some of the work. You're doing we as a human being a race, Tori. I don't think we can find our comfort zone, and then dwell in it. I think that's a death. 'cause you're not growing your you're you're dying. Really? Yeah. An older. We get the scary air it is. And it's just I find a lot of times we have to put ourselves in situations where we're not with. Willingly going to step into an uncomfortable situation. But we might get pushed right? Right. I heard you own busted open the other day, one of my favorite shows. I I enjoy that show. It's kind of speaks have big business has gotten when you've got a a major network like siriusxm doing six hours a day. Pro wrestling Monday through Friday, they do show that repeat it. So are there the other day and talking about with Bubba taking the table? How how nervous were you digest to be talked into that that buff or you just gung ho broad? I bushy tailed trying. I was pretty good in Hove red. You tell it like it was cool. Like, it was cool to be put through a table by the Dudley's. It was you know, was is scared as I was you know, how cool it was really overrode. My fear. A memorable spot. People still talk about those spots. And I'm going to ask you about. I don't have much around may. She was healthcare. Oh, see what you know. I just saw something on Instagram. So great now that people can tag you and matches. He's totally forgot about and they had a match against man, man, two. I miss him to May's role in the resting in the beginning was gone as a star hurling arresting in the beginning was as a policeman. Meaning that assumed Earl too big for riches and didn't want to follow the commands in the orders. The unscrupulous Booker, Billy Wolfe. It was married to Mildred Burke may was straighten him out in. She was there s she'd beat him up on my gosh, she was policeman. Yeah. It does. Right. And she had no fear. I remember where mcgurk my first boss tour telling me, he's also he was involved when when may try it out at a she was a sand springs high school, and I can't remember what moment it was Imada Mildred who was considered the hulk HOGAN the women. She's only five feet tall. She had this big biceps, and she that Rosie the Riveter pose we see forever in the, you know, Rosie the Riveter that was that was Miller Burks image. So Milquet, Tulsa, and somehow another LeRoy rains for Johnny may young to to try out, and they beat the shit out of the champion because she didn't know how to work. She thought it was shoot. So they had to stop real quick because they're afraid may was gonna actually hurt Mildred Burke. I think it was Milton Burke is Mildred Burke tune buyers somebody big the top of the line talent. And they knew then they had something in the, but she was a character. I remember one her she had to do something. I think Naven and the ring and like she her crotch had to be in his face. And I remember she put fish she put food in her crotch, just the ridden the warriors on the bills anymore. He has has. He has a quote unquote, bad taste in his mouth. Well, we we had a locker room full of characters without a doubt. And the one thing I I'm writing my second book, the sequel Slava knocker and one things I'm talking about in there at some point is how the locker room dynamic changed when we Intel relations the filled Mishra McMahon's wishes and hired a bunch of tens and very sexy. Athletic women. The is it was a big change for the the locker room area 'cause here to four the only women that backstage or occasional valet scary, Sherri, Martel, you know, missing Liz with their one off and now you got locker room or two full of beautiful women hanging around catering backstage, and I told Vince is this is going to change the whole dynamic of the locker room. He didn't quite get it until he got it. What was the difference? What was the dynamic like, we're jealousy? From some of the man. Because you're getting keep minutes off the television. Or was it just? There was I don't know if jealousy was the right word. But there would be snide remark made, you know, comed- that I never really took heart that, you know, where I might get more of a crowd reaction and some guys busting his ass. And I'm just shaking mine frustration. I'm sure, but that I think I just kinda you're gonna see that anywhere that I saw the females is that you know, it in theory. It all sounds great. You want all these tens that are athletic and everything. But then there's so many other things factor in like can they handle being on the road three hundred days a year? Can they handle a male locker room atmosphere and hang with the guys and not get too emotional? You know, are they willing to push pass being sore every day taking, you know, there's so many other factors always thought maybe wrong school for being a father of two daughters of always thought that. Having a wrestling relationship toward the male and the female are in the business was a little bit daunting because I seen situations where women that were married wrestlers. And they're both they're both by for television time, there's issues there that share that philosophy or. I I understand what you're saying. I don't necessarily share that philosophy. But I can't see how you know. I think what no matter what business you're in. If one person's getting more being celebrated more than the other. It kinda starts to feel like the relationship is a little unbalanced. And especially you know, if you're the feeling like, you're the inferior one it can definitely cause issues 'cause then you're trying to prove yourself. But at the same time relationships shoot we're on the road so much. It's like if you can have a relationship that works. It's kind of nice to have someone on the road with you. That I can see wholeheartedly. My my issue is that if you don't have great communication as a couple. And if you don't have the the the respect of of your spouse or your significant other in this case. Those things missing the other relationship. It's not gonna last long. Yeah. So like you gotta trust. I mean, you're both being surrounded by a lot of come tation. And you're not always going to be together. So you gotta trust each other show for any relationship without a doubt. I heard there's gonna mix and changes w is gonna make some changes in the presentation of the hall of fame. Don't know if that's accurate or not. But what I read or heard was that it may it may not be so dependent on presenters. Yeah. That's what I've been told. Hopefully, they'll be able to cut down on the ceremony a little bit. So some some of those wrestlers to get back to the hotel and sleep before the big day. Right. The hills. That's why I always thought that the hall of fame was perfectly placed on Friday night. I know there's other things that play. But by doing it on Friday night when I was in charge of town. It was always the the motor was let's get these cats the opportunity to go to bed wrist 'cause we need everything they have an a little bit more. Wrestlemainia? So would it be safe to say that if you have an doctor it will be a female? Yeah. I thought so why not I mean, it's it's the great rub for them. And also solidifies the how impactful women are now in the business, which is can you imagine how much fun you would have in today's marketplace. If if two thousand one and you're just getting started learning and had a performance center to polisher skills and not being not learning on the run. And all that stuff. That's a challenge man challenging, but it's really cool for them. Really cool. So your own your own Facebook, Twitter Instagram here, you own everything. Right. Is it all at Torrey Wilson, if I'll Tori Wilson on Instagram Torey eleven on Facebook and Twitter. Okay. We're the Levin come from L. No, actually, it was actually the day. I got married. Still using the number eleven even though I'm divorced. Right. Well. Divorced note. A bad thing happens. Evan. Right. That was best families C you keep in touch with stay secure at all. Yeah. I do. Yeah. I still see her. She do. She's doing great. She's got her second little baby. She has a little baby boy now with under a year, and she's just a great mom. What a soul she had. There's there's women that I've managed in this job. I had that I really wanted them to find something better. And you and Stacy were two of those people I thought this is good for now. It's good name dandy. Mika few bucks. Smart. You'll say some of it create business relationships and experiences, but man you guys had so much. This didn't seem to be because I had a very poor opinion of the women as human beings, no different than their peers. The men that generation it was a very CD kind of a, you know, Carney like environment. Yeah. Could be. Yeah. Has she's like someone that has traveled and experience things as I have like we both experienced wrestling, which you don't really understand unless you've been there. We've both had some really high really big highs really big lows seen a lot. And we still have the same thinking that at the end of the day. It's basically who you are on the inside that matters above all. Don't come from my Chev relationship principles. No matter what it's not gonna forward your career any degree. Gus people are making decisions know that if you're taking the bait for something scrupulous that you'd take you'll take the bit again for somebody else. And it's just not a good. It's not a good scenario to being you still saw autograph your play cover. Yeah. Because I fear there collectors out of they'll do respect. Signed one. I I I looked at the date. And I was like oh my God. I think I need to scribble the data. That's now this is placing Ray to a whole tell them you're a teen age Sonia. Do. Well, listen, you're doing great things at Torrey eleven on Twitter. She's a great follow. And she doesn't wear you out, folks. So if you're you once about that's not gonna work be your time line it moat, but only with good stuff suggests voluntary. So what you other than your holiday mcduck Shen are your you. Gotta write your own speech. Right. I am. Yeah. I've been working on it. Good less is more. Well, the the fan everybody defendant when you go on. I just really want for I really want to be able to share something with people that they can walk away with and feel like they know me a little better. And it's not just wrestling stories and thank you. But like kind of like something I've been able to walk away from the wrestling business with. Goes good. In ten minutes. While man, you you maybe you make it the MVP award. You you are your in early poll if everybody would hear here, but you know, that won't the DX the DX except of five you have an hour. I hope I'm before them. Well, you know, when I went when I went in the hall of fame, I was the first one, and that was in the first one up in dusty was the last one up, and I had this ball headed guy stone coast eve Austin is my doctor. So I I saw too. Well, I already knew what I was going to get because he got a huge ovation coming out. He he didn't write a damn word down about me. He ended up to me with what he's felt and what he believed, and it was just great. I could I could not close is right now. Tori, look out in the crowd there in Detroit two thousand seven to see my wife crying. She was so moved by the whole, oh is great. You know, people care standing ovations. The we love that. We love it. I love we wanna be. We all wanna be received with respect and love and admirations, no matter if it's like, I said earlier, our relationship in life or business relationship, and certainly has performer if you don't have that. Great as a performing last long. Just not now people gotta love your eight-year else. You're in trouble Geneva, Switzerland, neutral, go to move the needle Bill. Well, listen, I really thank you so much Japan with us this week. I'm very very proud of your of your induction, the hall of fame. I've I remember so vividly that at the TV tapings when everybody came to tapings at that time. As best. I recall that you are running bleachers up and down up and down to that. And we meant load watching you run those lasers. I. Do the bleachers day. You got it. You got it. 'cause we knew you weren't going to run an overall coveralls you're going to run in your workout gear. So, but the the people don't realize how amazing condition he ran. And it was because even TV days, you were you had a major workout before we ever started. 'cause those racers are can be treacherous, quite frankly. Yeah. You did it and I remember that vividly. I don't feel like a sicko pervert or something. But. Beautiful blonde woman five seven five eight running the bleachers. Sometimes it takes your tension away from what you're actually sitting there to do. It was much more interesting than some of the matches that we call quite frankly, not near match whether matches. That people today -solutely absolutely in a very harmless way, and you were getting in great shape. I just don't think people realize of all the women on the roster net attitude air, you argument with the best condition one of the bunch cost. I didn't see other women running. They all they have to pup and get a cut and you'll try set and all this other stuff. But man, you're you're a cardio machine. I thought that was just awesome. And you know, I think I don't think enough Russia's run today. It's all about lip. You know, hard part is when you're tired, and you're on the road all the time. That's the last thing you wanna do. But it's also the most important thing. Exactly. Right. Whether we want to or not, well, you've had a great career is not nearly over. You're doing a lot exciting things books. Keep up at Torrey again, social media. And again, I follow her on Twitter at Torrey Wilson. Oh, Tori, eleven right Tory eleven Yep. Yep. And the number eleven folks. So for those of you wondering, I don't I don't we get your Email. We talked about this these Phil E L E R two numbers. No. It's the numbers kids. Tori eleven. Yeah. You should right now where you're looking phone. Go ahead and fall, and look thank you so much for jumping on I respect you think the world of you, you always a great pro. And a great lady, and I always respected you for those things many more. So thanks Jeff onto you know. Thanks for having me day. Our hope to see up there me to hope. So to take care have great day. Thanks you too. Bye. I appreciate Tori Wilson joining us here on the program a sweetheart of a lady, man, she's in great, shape, cheeses such great shape, and she's focused. She has such a great outlook on life philosophy. I'm happy to say, she's my friend. Congratulations. Tori, you deserve. It. No matter what some of these idiots may say that. No, the answer to everything. Moving in now to slog NAR the week. We'll there's some good candidates this this week one. I start off f alphabetically Bob Armstong seventy nine years old, folks. He's the patriarch of the renown Armstrong family, one of the great great wrestling families in the history of the wrestling business. You know, any he had his last match. Just recently hours ago in Pensacola at age seventy nine. It was his boss fifty ninth year as pro wrestler. Understand is was all there, including the road Dogg hall of Famer himself. Bob course, hall of fame. He's a class act. Bob Armstrong was the classic example of what a territory baby face must be to establish longevity and productivity. No doubt. Right now, take them that. Oh, former marine still a hell of a man. Maccabi is being I met with Kurt angle out in Arizona pay for you. We did crazy venture. And Michael is going into the USA hall of fame. I found him to be extremely engaging Michael visiting what have been one of the great progressing villains in recent memory if he had chosen that path. Great talker. Great instincts in a test on gun so cheers, Michael visiting on his the announcing he's going into the SEO hall of fame. Good, dude. Good mazo. He's a fighter. He's a real fighter. About day Batista should be nominated for the slobber knocker the week with a very strong promo. It wasn't too long. Thank god. I don't know whose whose vision it is. Can't be Vincent vision that the longer the promo the better than it is. Are we crazy that insecure? Good god. That's that whole deal. Like, I say this earlier tell me what time it is not how to make the boss JR. Yes, sir. Chris Jericho gets a nomination for his voice mail. Message to Cody on the last road road to double or nothing episode. Very funny. Check it out list every week. I wanna get Travis Browne nomination for sloppy the weight because he knocks and Slaw that dude's face that form shot that was a forearm. Shiver personified a slobber. Knocker a hit. Travis relative handful. I've watching many times in USC. You don't have to look for him. He's there to fight. Chicago crowd on Monday night. Did a good job when things need help. At least they weren't Lafayette. Good job, Chicago. I guess 'cause the ridiculous pay. You kind of got to give Mike trout nomination. Twelve years. Four hundred thirty million. Really? It's all about marketing building, a new stadium causes no way in hell that you can expect a full payout of productivity and asking for a twelve year career. And in in guaranteed money situation. I would front load bastard. Or maybe they said, no, well, it's kind of like amortize it is paying less than paying for more years. Bottom line is foreign thirty million dollars. I just don't believe any ball player in the world were four and thirty million dollars. Sorry. Oh school. Yeah. Case close Arnie. But I'd rather Fatima neck l'hotel woman. Kofi Kingston, a great parents. The gotten was wonderful. He's over he's ready strike leaarm chart. Hot WWE. You have rediscovered lightning in a bottle from unlikely source who's only been around and Lebanese. He had it only wrestle Randy Orton in the garden. Call that match. I remember he was ready been and they w e lost it. They disconnected from Kofi at that time. Now. Time has come full circle back out. They don't miss the Mark this time. And lettuce gentlemanly saw them north of the week. I talked about earlier sue Aitchison over thirty years of WWE service. She does most of the organization organizing the mecca wish I think I read where she had done part over six thousand Mikko wish. The w superstars to seriously ill children many of them terminal. So she's a of person I mentioned, she's from Wales and also mentioned after she and I had a couple of cocktails. Neither understand what the other saying. She from Wales may from oklahom-. I love says good woman credit to the wrestling business. I dunno. I mentioned earlier some awesome faithful. I'm not. I don't mean that. But all I'm saying is that sue Aitchison? Is would be a great name for an award. Just say congratulations, Suzy, congratulations. You certainly are deserving and that's a slow knocker of the week. Coons or in here. Narking? Well, once again, ladies and gentlemen, we are at one of my favorite parts of the show the pit Coon goofy award. I love this. It's just fun. As pointing out the misery others. No. We all love that. Don't we love the dirt? Did you get sheets? Get the dirt. Oh, Lordy pet Coon goofy award. Well, here's the thing. There's there's some humor in this day. You first of all suggested that we talk about Carlos Santana, I'm thanking well Carlos Santanas got a new album. He's a legend hall of Famer greatest ATar of all time Rockin roller got new come out. But no. Rafael morpheus baseball. Former baseball player some regard. But Boston College. And cardinal. Pardon Malloy, high school in New York City hotshot. He slipped in Carlos Santana. The baseball player who committed to taking a bat to the TV and the Phillies clubhouse late last season. When he learned that multiple teammates. Or playing the popular video game of fortnight. During a September game after Philadelphia eliminated from postseason contention. I mean, it's more dirt there. No PR guy, and that Ciller Delfi area that might be able to give me some more information on that -til the Oklahoma City thunder. My god. What you talk about a team that needs leadership and maturity and a drop in their set the Oklahoma City thunder. I don't know where the heart is. But maybe on a milk carton someplace right now, it's lost embarrassing. Lot of talent. But not a lot of leadership from what I see could be wrong. I think it's Pitkin goofy to continue to book music interrupts that people especially baby faces fall for. It's making said baby face look like Ned in the first reader. And this week's Pekin give you we'll go to sticking of Rashleigh cart was on the spot to Nance, Barron. Cornices wrestlemainia Ponant people got understand. I think most of us that are not overwhelmed as a matter of fact, as I quoted underwhelmed about that announcement was it. It's more to Corbin than it did to carts retirement. How many more chances WWE Jerry Briscoe has his way they'll sign more. I don't know how many more Olympic Domenico WVU gonna sign one Ford he hoped more right card angle was a once in a lifetime guy. And maybe some people are saying, well, maybe his tenure TNA impact wrestling tarnishes his legacy. I think that's bullshit. He is one of the all time greats in the game period. I saw I heard bus opens daily. Brecca said he was in his top ten all time top ten that's a pretty good recommendation, by the way. So, and I think that's kind of what this is all about I think people embrace Kurt leaving he's gone through so many trials and tribulations. He you know, the trying to address drug and alcohol issues, which has got bless. He was a workhorse in a war horse there and WWE for many many years. He was huge. He came along. When we needed a star. And so whether he left and went impact, which he did are not to me absolutely irrelevant to this issue. Apparently, it may not be to some people. I don't know. The winter the pet can goofy war goes to those that have under soul the importance of this legendary performers final match, and maybe also 'cause in pro wrestling when you say you're gonna retire. It means nothing. Maybe that's part of our fault guys retired and come back for payday. But nonetheless, the subtle. The the presentation occurred angles last match to me unequivocally is the pet Coon goofy award winner of this week. Well, still to come here. My conversation with Eric Bischoff. We caught Erica earlier today, as you know, new show escapes every Wednesday so earlier on Wednesday morning air, can I caught up? He was getting ready to fly from Cody Wyoming to Chicago more on that in a few minutes. Busy guy. Lot of things going on folks this week in wrestling, a lot of interesting submissions this week and really some fun things that I big in my career are memorable. I should say as well twenty eight years ago WC dug in new Japan, presented the W W new Japan super show from the Tokyo dome. It was packed. It was a it was amazing huge crowd. That's wanna hear indefens-. They're going to try to thirty thousand people building seats fifty thank. That would always be my goal for your big show Vic show, right? But nonetheless that was a great trip. I made a I was able to go to bath house. I'm not gonna miss you with me 'cause they're some are still married. It was an interesting trip, shall we say, it was it was exploring a part of the culture of Japan that I truly enjoy. That was a night that Tatsumi Fujinami defeated RIC flair to win the end of day world heavyweight title. I am Tony Chevanton. Our over there together, we do the wrath arounds, then when we got back to Atlanta, we did the matches invoice over session count. Josh Barnett now used to do for new Japan shows or access TV, it you lose something you lose something the translation, it's just hard. If you're not there. You can be as good as you to be. But it's still not the same. Twenty five years ago. W F presented wrestlemainia ten. I watched it from my confines of my home in Wilton, Connecticut. I wasn't my services are not needed that night. And this one year before that was a darling of the darling of the dance darling of the ball resume any ten ten years of making a mess for garden. It was a member Owen and Bret had their great match. But it was terrific. And but law folks, remember that wrestlemania tan for a ladder match involving razor Ramon, Shawn Michaels. It was it was it was a dandy to and now by today's standards of dare-devils in I don't mind going out this way techniques. Essays mild. It wasn't it isn't. But the bar has been raised in mazing -ly from that. Wrestlemania ten ladder match twenty two years ago. Recipe at thirteen. Oh, yeah. Baby Rosemont horizon. It was hot. Crowd was great. And it was a match card where much like Russell many eighteen where at in Chicago, Bret Hart and stone cold on a submission match with Kim shamrock as the referee. Awesome. That was one of the best executed matches from every participant's perspective that I remember seeing on that large scale, it should close the show in hindsight. Much like the rock and in hulk HOGAN Arrowsmith eighteen in hindsight. They should close show eighteen years ago. There's a lot of internet speculation. Lot of doubt that WWE was gonna buy the WCW brand. And of course, that was not to be. We did buy it. It was not a it wasn't a long consideration. Because what we bought was the library. And the fact of the it was just the WCW library. It was other libraries that WCW owned including lot of Crockett stuff. And I I wanna say some midsouth STA not sure about that. But it was a big day eighteen years ago, man, Tom flies, and other vivid memory, the main event of the last nitro from Panama City, Florida. Rick flair versus staying how appropriate. Seventeen years ago, the W F held his first ever draft for the Bryce Jordan center in state, college, Pennsylvania. The number one overall draft pick going to smack down the rock the number two overall pick going to raw the undertaker. There was a big fan dress. I was told in two thousand eight before the draft in San Antonio. I ask a WWE television executive. Our our our king stay together. He looks at me like I got three heads. We have crazy. Komo Jay argue slow credit. Brecca men summer. All you. Guys are cool sorta happen. Of course, the rivers Omay right now. Of course, the the excuse me. Well, that was changed. We changed our mind after that. Okay. Sure you did bottom line. I'm not a big fan of the dress whatsoever. Another example aback communication, I'll take my share the blame back communication all around. No reason to lot of someone unless you're gonna use the excuse. Well, after we spoke, and I said, no way. Somebody wink, wink, annot not mentioned brought it up and Vince locked I think some of them locked this is my reaction. The way I guess our lives are so mundane and so controlled that. They just bask in the miserable. Other sata? Now, let's move on to something that is happy. That's birthday this week Wednesday March twentieth. Matt tavern who had a really strong night at the last ring of honor pay per view that sixty minute brought Broadway. Drawl I ever refereed fro wrestling matches. In Tulsa, I'm in get ready to walk to the ring before the first match introduced and the my the Leo Voss has helped me learn referee. He said they tell you the finish. And nobody told me the finish because they weren't. Sure. I our smart the business, and they would have been right. I was not totally smart to the business. So he said, well, they're doing a Broadway. Trench Phillips might George are doing Rodway. I didn't say anything let it want. You know, underscored my ignorance, and he looked could tell them my face that. I didn't have damn clue what Broadway was and Rodway simply time limit draw. Now, some kid on on Instagram or Twitter knows that. Well, usual so anyway, Matt even thirty four homicide forty two on Wednesday and mo- fron Steve board in the stinger sixty years. Oh hard to believe. I remember the freshmen song he was he was at the side of chew Hellwig the dingo warrior, the alternate warrior. And. The staying been had no staying would've been known as the the stable one. Have big man. Great guy. Good human being. One of my the great rewards. I have in this business are the relationships. I've been able to make over the years sting certainly be on that list on Thursday, Kevin federalizing, and we forty one. How do you make the birthdays JR? Well, here's why it says here, he John CENA on raw New Year's day in two thousand seven, you know, why don't remember that nor do I give a shit because I had asked that day off for the first day off at Ashmore. And the whole time. I was w e to go to the go to Phoenix to go to the oh you Moise state game their bowl game. And that was the game that Boise state upset Oklahoma in overtime. And when the most thrilling football games ever played. Or was I I was in my room in Miami. Watching the fourth quarter of the game and killing my minibar. Very point go see my seniors want to go. Honey, I love those cheeks Chris Candido, the Chris Candido died in two thousand five Hilton forty seven voice young. Golly. Former WW tag champ. Good old time fritter, doctor, Tom Krista. That's the sad. He had a lot to offer. You know, a lot to offer on Friday March twenty second Terry Gordy son Ray who was in w for a while as Jesse long with ESTES. Not find the role of Luke gallows. God almighty, Ray, Gordy, forty Lobi, mama. Gotta love imam and Connie Gordon. I fall her Facebook and Terry son, JIMBO covert fifty nine. He was former champ the Chicago Bears dove base. He was about a roller wrestlemainia to remember, Wayne bloom, sixty one on Friday. He would MO Beverly WWE star Awa is well, his son Cao bloom. Decide inex- T wish you Moyle. He told me on Twitter today. He's going to be the next big thing in WWE, healthy, right? Why not somebody's going to do? It granny said somebody's going to. Why don't you Jamie on Saturday March? Twenty second Travis Tomko is forty three. Travis at a big outside. I thought he I thought he might be something thought he might be bigger than he was. The real nice guy smart guy. Probably better off which doing now, quite frankly, Mark hut who lost Brock leisure ESE two hundred. I was there my friend Derek Stevens. The owner the d- casino in hotel casino and down on free month's straight there in Las Vegas, my favorite place. Stay in town because one of the reasons is elect along bar, and the other reason is I like. India MOS talion steakhouse second-floor best meatballs of headmen entire life. I said that from my wife used to great meatballs as well. She says, right. On Sunday Lacey. Evans emissions only. Lilian Garcia podcast will be twenty nine. Great upside lover game, get an Rainman and push it to the next level. Push it to the next level. In the way, you do that with the alpha women like that as you you had to physically push them to the next level. And then incorporate the mental aspect of crowd psychology along with their physicality for the physicality becomes almost a train reflex. And the ring psychology something they got to devote more time. And obviously thought to have you birthday Lacey Lana it'll be thirty thirty four. Of course, that's the wife of Rousseff pretty four years. She she doesn't look mid thirties. But, you know, near diva her former diva women's wrestler, you're thirty four you're thinking about it. Epa coast seven former tag champ with Primo berry Horwitz Horwitz wins hor which wins. I got more feedback on the horror twins call when he had not won a man, he finally won one television. And I went crazy giants appendage is when the pendant. You'll remember that. Gorgeous, george. Man. He started off for guys. He looked back. All you want all the shooter's all the tough guys. And Leo Burke told me that gorgeous, George, George Wagner was Bashar he's junior heavyweight about to fifteen but it can wrestle real. And he would have been a hundred and four hundred four Sunday. Dad, sixty three heart attack. Lots of ton of money down Turkey farm. A lot of guys man, he's outsmart the system and invest in things. He wasn't premier with getting over your head. And there's we are. And finally on Sunday. The amazing, my friend, Mark Calloway. The undertaker we fifty four on Sunday. I find her man, I've never met. Seven-time w in world champion, seven seven-time tag champion. Doesn't matter. How many titles? He's won. The Mark of a great wrestler is not Hemi thick tissue titles. If they have been anointed are cast with the undertaker, Mark Calloway's a credit to the wrestling business. And I'm excited that very soon. Accrue will be joining me in my home in Norman to film up a piece on I. Big production that they're doing with the entertainer for somewhere down the road. With me leave in good catch all that stuff off still under contract. Saw good laugh is good folks really is on Monday jumbos Rudas sixty eight he he would have been sixty eighty died in two thousand. Complication of kidney transplant and finally on Tuesday. Mike Mondo thirty six he was on these fierce squad. If you remember and another tag team aficionado of law resist ons? Sylvan braun. Yeah, we forty two on Tuesday. So I wanna wish all these folks. These men these women everybody. Very happy birthday. And whatever you do folks. Remember Goce ours? Got the cake you've got mail. Let's check out this mailbag here on our broadcast. We appreciate you doing plus four. They show drops every Wednesday. You know that and we've free shaving here. Telling a friend about it Cigna podcast. My Conrad toss are definitely going to be doing a new podcast together. We don't have nine for yet. But Conrad got a million ideas as do I. Probably all have something to do with food. But that's to be determined. Right. So I'm thinking that after wrestlemainia at some point you the week after two weeks after somewhere after wrestlemainia somewhat soon. We will debut our new show. The show or replace this show. And it will be a new venture for Westwood One and new visual Conrad ni- who are going to be fifty fifty partners in this proposition looking forward to it a lot. Some of the elements that we have here will we hope that we can utilize some some the components, but it will be a fresh new show, and it should be ball. Buster. So Conrad and make sure that happens we can't. So let's take a look the mail bag. Remember, the gym Rauscher Ford at gmaiLcom. How you you get in on the radar here. Robert Chicago says what do you think about the w Tang playing off title with certain titles? Well, here's the thing. Robert is a it's a creative weakness is they need your thing to change titles on such a frequent basis. It does nothing for the titles. It really does very little for the individuals involved in the transaction. So I am not a fan of of frequent tidal changes. I'm really not. And then when you add the number of titles that are in question to be changed changing them on a more frequent basis. I think is a. Waste of time. I think it's lazy creative. That's my take on that deal. Benjamin thomas. Hey, Jim big fan question. Do you think that you'll be part of the festivities only Chris Jericho Rockin wrestling raider, part, two, I hope so I I hope so Benjamin we've discussed that. I I wanna go. So if there's a spot for me on the cruise you can count on it. I will definitely be there had a great time as much fun as I've had wrestling related promotion ever. Chris Jericho cruise dot com is how you get mation. But you've heard a lot. I think heard anybody at least to me that had of that time that last one. So I hope I'm part of Benjamin. And that's that's the plan right now. John gosh wants to know that I was telling me podcast. I appreciate that. What what's your take on the lack of use of the great tag team of Anderson and gallows by WW either? So underutilized. Well, you pretty well. Nail that one John they are underutilized, but that's not unusual as I miss early in show. Start unusual that you could say that about a lot of tags. They're talented first of all there's not any untalented tag teams WWE. Let's get that clear. There's a lot of good ones. But until the company makes a concerted effort to foot the time energy and create creativity in the tag team division, much like the have resurrected the women's wrestling over the last few years. This what you're gonna get. Unfortunately. Steve is in Manchester England with your booking hat on. I was wondering how could you have worked stings dubbed of e run in two thousand fourteen. Well, he would not have lost wrestlemainia. I didn't understand that help. Nobody. It was not a feel good moment hand Shekar. No handshake. It was poor strategy port booking in my opinion. And if been got over like a million bucks out of said, well, no they got it there right now is wrong. I just don't believe that's cases time. He needed to get some winds people want people wanted to see sting win in a w ring. Why sting was not allowed to win a note of ring is. Unfathomable the second time I used that word. So that's my take on that. Stay thanks getting with us here from Manchester UK. Peter Sutherland has a question everyone's to down inform these days, and it's been going on for years. I think it works fans. Enjoy the product. There's absolutely no doubt. That that social media has changed the game and shames perception of a lot of things, sports and entertainment politics. You know, you can you can log you can listen to podcasts on a zillion different topics. So yeah, it's too much information. It kills part. There's no surprise is. Hardly any more. All it is skepticism and seemingly more people than not. Feel compelled in the gated. To some degree to provide their critiques and what went wrong, so they love to point out. Once again, the half empty glass. It's a too much. And that's why I reporters I've spoken. I don't know. How long I'm not. I don't need that information. If I'm gonna watch something. I want to correct myself. I have read spoilers of events that. I had no intention of partaking in. Make sense if I'm gonna watch it. I don't wanna know this bowlers. Why what I? I just can't get it. So you're you're right. Feeder I think the social media world has is influence everything. And here's here's a here's the other issue that if you're not if you're wrestling motor our talent. And you're not using social media for all it's worth your screwing yourself. You're just not very smart. If you're a wrestler today, and you gotta you gotta T shirt store for SAT's dot com. Like I do. Prototypes dot com slash Jim. Ross any do you have a store are your you have an event where they're selling tickets. Then why wouldn't you social media in all forms of able the women WWE are better than the men and using social media? They seem to be more conscientious they seem to get it more. And I don't know if some of the guys think is old school do not do it. And you know, they don't you don't need to do it not paid for that. Whatever. Hello. Are you still selling shirts and getting a royalty? You're getting a sales commission on on good soul. So why won't you want more people to buy more goods? Don't outsmart yourself. So I'm a believer in the social media dance. Your question, you you can't live with it. Sometimes you can't live without at all. And that's if this the mail bag, remember the gym rushing fort gmaiLcom is how to how to get hold of. And we free sure submissions and always fortissimo. Bischoff businessman in town. And my grandfather say he's busier than a fruit merchant because everybody knows it fruit is a perishable entity. You gotta sell them or they go bad. So he's bizzare than fruit merchant in Chicago bigwig, you got a big weaken, Chicago Dona. Yeah. We've got a Tony. And I and Conrad heavy a combined show what happened when eighty three weeks coming up, it'd be percents and I've ever done show together with Conrad the middle of shoot. It should be interesting to say, the least I can't wait to see see how this goes. Yeah. Great city landlocked for few days. Chicago specially if you're still a red meat connoisseur. I am. Indeed. I am indeed can't go through their Eric without stopping Gibson's the one out by the arena. Hello that place is a great place. I'm gino's pizza aficionado having the Cocco couple years beckoned early eighties. So when I go back to Chicago, I've got you know, it's a target rich. Environment for my guess for nominal excursions. You can actually remember the early eighties. Barely. I mean. It was fun. I it's pieces of it. Memory defends defense defend my audience. That's one thing Vinci SCO me on the most God damage. A are you gotta know your audience. You know? So I need a filter. I guess, but are just commonsense. But that was kinda my my theory there, I'm looking for also this weekend, Chicago, he said, you're gonna do the man cow morning show is he's a good friend. Good guy. Thank lot of him. Interesting cat boy. He's the interesting, dude. He lost radio. I know that. I worked with him a couple of times in the past. And he's he's full of. And he's a very electric personality. Let's putting. But yeah, you to call the the morning show tomorrow in Chicago. So that's why my weight in early good view Thursday for you folks here on the on listening wherever you are. And I'm sure that have a win side and podcasts, and you can go back and re retrieve the audio. So check that LV entertaining as hell on that mission. Tony, Tony you're going to be taken stays together. Your New York City debut is the afternoon after wrestlemainia the afternoon just before Monday night, raw which a hot ticket. And it's only steps away from the Barclay sooner. I am told by the world great show runner Rafael morphine, which hosts the host the big event for you guys. And I'm excited about that. Because by the way, tickets are on sale W H W eighty three dot com. I get tickets and help show. The number eight three dot com. And yeah, it should be fun. Like, I said, this is Tony. It's really funny. Listening to Tony I drop in on his show every once in a while is that yours BRUCE'S and a couple of others just to check in and see how they're progressing and be entertained, and Tony has really come into his own. You know, when I worked with Tony. And you Tony was like the lease funny person that I knew very very cut and dry, not a big sense of humor. At least that I saw and just kind of a workhorse just load 'em up. Let them work. He'll get stuff done and get it done. Right. It wasn't really much of a of flamboyant or outgoing personality these when I was around him, and he is clearly emerged as one of the funniest people in professional wrestling at this point. I get kicked out of his show. So it's gonna be fun. You know, working with Tony. And and getting his perspective all the things that went down prior to becoming Debussy w during the time. I was there during the time. I was running the company and afterwards, you know, he's got a very unique. Perspective a few people have shared the stage with has. So it'll be really fun and interesting Upshur Conrad even middle all being the, you know, world class ship disturb or that he is we'll. Clearly, you know, raise the raise the energy, no doubt. It's going to be. It'll be a great show, folks. So you here's what you got there in that. They're in that neighborhood on Monday. You got this great show. Tony Eric W, H W and the number eighty three dot com all information, you need more address starting times all that good stuff, but four o'clock show. You get town ago this show and the easy walk seriously to the Markley center for money, not raw if that's on your agenda, and then guess what? After Monday night, raw we're going to Conrad to work again with Bruce in myself. I guess Bruce coming fresh from the event because he's known Beck on the writing team. Did that's fries you when that happened? Yes. No. I was probably more. No than yes. I, you know, Preussen pretty tight and have been ever since we started working together. Get back in two thousand two or three whatever it was. And we've remained we became probably closer friends after he left WWE them. We were when we were there. And you know, he's kind of progressively getting more have gotten more and more fault, you know, with with vents particular WWE, you know, couple different one up projects. And I kept seeing, you know, the number of those projects in the weights them kind of increasing over the past year or so so I I think it was a natural evolution and I'm happy to see them. Happy for route Bruce. I'm happy prevents think having Bruce there somebody getting worked with for so many years in so many different situations will be offensive. I don't know not comfort, and it's a -sarily. But as you know, you know, when it comes to creative and and strategy tactics and all of the things that go into. To making something successful chemistry. You know? The biggest part of creative. I think that our business is far more art than it is science. And by that, I mean so much of it comes down to instinct instinct is oftentimes born shaped by experience, and I think having somebody like Bruce there with Bence in familiar kind of history and experiences will will help the chemistry of automatically helped the product. That's my take. I think you're right. I think that Bruce will be behind closed doors great filter for vents so to speak. In other words, BRUCE'S has enough experience as work Vince enough hours, probably more than anybody alive that you know, he knows he has ROY relationship to till Vince vessel, Nikki wrong on this one and do an respectful way that vessel. Listen to not build up of his you know, roadblocks because I know from experience. In that same basic in another role close to this that he likes to be, you know, he he wants you to tell him. What time it is? How to make the watch luck. I am here on the show sometimes and in and he wants to be challenged. But it's a matter of how you challenging where you challenging and who else is present in my that's my take on that deal. And Bruce knows all those idiosyncrasies. Going to be good for everybody looking forward to it would be good. What are you going to do wrestlemania weekend? Big show of money after noon anything else on your gender. I'll be saying twenty nine I'll be sending over at Russell calm and doing the the whole autograph thing. And then of course, the show on Monday, the eighth beyond that kind of keeping. I didn't get invited to anything. I'm not gonna be partaking in any of the the WWE events. But you know, I'll be in town and is enough going on that. I'm sure I'll be able to some kind of way to keep myself busy interesting yet safe environment. That's only it's only New York City, or for God's sakes. You'll figure out something something to do right here. Well, I'm kind of the same boat. I got undoing three shows I'm not invited anything else. But nonetheless, so much that by the way, you know, my my contract dovey, insulin Friday, March twenty ninth and left right writers events. I didn't think ahead any issues with it. And I so I didn't think it have big move the needle. But I feel kinda relieved I think people didn't understand the fact that you know, when you're an empty nester all the way around kids are gone, no wife, no pets, and you're now fa male, and you kinda used to being around people in being involved, man. This miserable sentence. To be sentenced to your home Falco's under house arrest. And I got a great place. All that. You know, what I mean emotionally, just the shit's? So I last year I was twice had a great deal. Made a lot of money what news very much, but that when my call so this will let me do other projects and get more involved things and try to keep myself busy in a quote, unquote, manageable schedule. It's probably a lot of like that respect. And it's one of the reasons that I keep myself busy more or less as an entrepreneur, and pursuing, you know, selling television shows and movies, and all that kind of stuff is I can't sit. I'll never retire. I mean sitting around with nothing to do. But trying to find something to do is. I think yeah, it's horrible. Yeah. It's it's it's not jail. It's not a federal prison, but psychologically emotionally, it's it. It's really hard for people like unites you sit around and not have a mountain to climb or a goal for each or an idea to explore. I can't do it in. And I know you can't either I'm happy that you at least have the ability to go in do whatever it is you want to go and do an in in the wrestling business without having to look over your shoulder or ask permission, exactly. You know, I left there. The greatest thing in my career from just for me in my family was going to work for Vance. If it was it was it was your biggest thrill leaving WCW. No. My biggest thrill going to work at WWE because I had over a quarter of century there. And I got into the stock option thing, and I got I got made whole in over a few years of vesting. And I had no idea what I was getting myself into Eric stocks. What's the difference in a grant an option and all this other stuff? She's I felt like, you know, goddamn Barney fife round explained, Andy, you know, the galleries of of machine gun are are non non the galleries or something? I didn't I had no clue not a clue. So I look the bottom line. So that's a good number. I my book, you know, for for years. Bill Shaw kept you know, he told me when he hired me executive producers era. Mark my words, I'm gonna make you a millionaire and I went well that's great though. But I had no idea really what he was talking about. And I wanted to believe it was a nice thing to say. But I wonder when about my business for a long time afterwards, I was regularly getting, you know, massive stock options when Turner Broadcasting and I'm like you. I didn't really know what Ben cool. I can't really take it to the Bank can't buy a house with it. But it's cool to have in my drawer. Right. Throwing all the the the stock options tickets and everything in the tour for all about him in an after the Aila Time Warner merger was announced Bill show called me. And I had already been out of the I was sitting collecting check that was being paid or played in in handsomely. And I was with my wife when I Bill Shaw. Cosby Sierra, I told you make you a millionaire, and I looked at Laurie, and I said, well, you know, we're doing okay, but we're millionaires. Bill. I'm not sure what you're talking about. And he said, you're stock-options they've just vested because the will come. We're one Madrid was approved in bylaws of of of of Time Warner are Turner at the time the minute. There was a change in ownership all all options, become vested. So completely out of the blue out of the loop in in very uneducated financial way, I was kicking inside of the head by mule. And I went I went home, and I went how many of these things I have what's the strike price? And I found out I had a fit ton of in my strike price was averaging around fourteen fifteen dollars a share, which is the shirt cost me, but they were selling and they were closing in about ninety seven dollars a share. So I did quick math in my head and went dam is right. He did. That's great. Well, good. That's that's success to get success. I'm happy for you. But I'm glad the. Guys like me, and you are not wrestlers are still at AARP still working and that we have a couple of nickels to rub together. I think that's pretty damn cool. And the wrestling business did that for me. And I think it's the same thing. I wouldn't be doing any of the things that I'm doing were not for the experience, and you know, exposure that I got in the wrestling business from, you know, pretty television shows and with my own production company, and and and now, you know, movies, and you know, it's none of those things would be happening. I would have been in the wrestling business. So I'm very grateful. Remind myself that every day. So would you say if I said, Eric it's almost as if you've reinvented yourself in within today's environment. Would that be fair? Oh, well, largely sure sure it would be fair. But I think more specifically I've just adapted to survive, you know, with the proliferation of streaming platforms ability to do podcasts, you know, things that you can do now and social media to stay in touch with your fan base in in and grow your fan base are just mind boggling, and I and I find them. Nate. I love social media because I'm dick to it. If you'll need to you know, constantly have dialogue with people. But I love the dynamic. I love the possibilities that creates and I more than anything loved to imagine where it's going to be two years from now three years from now on what the capabilities are going to be. I mean, this just just this morning example. One of our sponsors are podcast diverse shirts dot com. He was brand new sponsor, and I you know, dive bars are kind of my thing. You know? I've always preferred, you know. Nice. Little quiet local by Baras to a club. And when they started sponsoring. Wow, this is great. And just yesterday. I wanted to my local favorite joint here, and Cody Wyoming place gold, silver dollar bar, and I shot some video on my iphone and then put a little bit of graphics to it put some music to it. Thanks, Dave Silva and posted it, and it's a hell of a promotion and its way to reach people in build your business have fun with your. Fans because you're doing something fun and encouraging them to post their pictures videos, and that entertaining, you know, it's a great way to engage. So I just have so much fun with the stuff. And I don't know that it's much it is certainly reinventing. But it's really more adapting. I got the good agree with you putting it I've it's it's fascinating that people complain sometimes about the benefiting healthy or not I only judge it by me my life and uh staying business. I wanna be no matter where I do or what are go after WWE. I'm gonna be busy because that's my nature. I think the benefits very healthier for gosh. Like you and I will be making a good living. Call Khanakala our own shots. Not a bad thing. Well, I think the business in many ways is healthier than anybody ever imagined. It could be or ever has been now, it's not, you know, you can look at certain barometers, I guess and measure them, you know, sure, it's not the money like worse WWE's doing their four rating and WCW doing there for rating and for combined which I think is with leading. Anyway, I think there was always a lot of duplication that number. But you know, that was there's no doubt that during the money that wars because of the Monday night wars, solely because of the Monday night worse that was probably more people watching wrestling that in in any time in history and beyond that, you know, because of the Monday night worse rustling really really transcended to the highest levels of pop culture in really grew into an audience that it never had before. But I still don't think the business was is successful. Then or as large them as it is today. It's different today. But if again, not to keep harping, but you look at all the streaming platforms that are out there in the excessive building now for promoters producers to be able to reach a global audience with with I pay per view, for example, and be able to do it affordably. It's no longer a seven hundred fifty or thousand or million dollar roll the dice to put something up on pay per view, just from a production point of view, you can do it now for fraction of a fraction of what it used to be. I think what that means is they're going to be more rings of honor more eighty ws more new Pam pro wrestling's as the streaming platforms, mature and advertisers begin to support them. More more more. I think that's where the money is in for wrestling fans. They're just going to be able to see much more diverse international products for that reason alone. I think that businesses healthier now that it's over bell agree, and I'm happy for our last question. How far are we from the traditional USA network coverage of wrestling going away and everything going to streaming? I wouldn't be able to predict them not close enough to the inside of the industry to have educated guess, but just based on trends and seeing what's happening around the entertainment universe. And you know, I'm still in the television business in creating producing and selling original non scripted television programming now since two thousand three and I've sold them to pretty much every major network other than CBS ABC that you can find, and I know what happening to that business in. How streaming is in the competition from the net flicks in who's the world. I know the devastating impact that's having on the television industry. I think it's inevitable that television, as we know it today, whether it be cable network three to five years from now, we won't recognize it, and we will become far more saturated with many more streaming platforms options, they're here, folks. And by the way. Eric's. Great follow on Twitter. He actually funny at e Bischoff on Twitter, our suggest you follow right now, if not sooner great show eighty three weeks in Conrad Conrad getting massive rubs from you and Bruce Conrad's he slipping income like the he's James Gandolfini of the podcasts world differently. Intoning are getting great rubs from Conrad to be on it. Yeah. Podcast before I hooked up with Conrad. And we did. Okay. It was all right. But we weren't making money and literally the minute I hooked up with Conrad. You know, we we started rocking and rolling in. And Reagan the cash register almost immediately beautiful, and it a lot of that has to do with Conrad himself the chemistry between he and I and I'm sure he and Tony he and Bruce because every shows different. You know, my my show tends to be a little more granular in the weeds the business of the wrestling business because I don't think Tony or or even Bruce can speak to it with the same kind of credibility in the thority that I can because that that really was what I did. I wasn't nearly as involved into creative or the talent side of WCW. I didn't get really involved in creative until late ninety five and mid ninety six really jumped in feet, and Bruce has all kinds of his thirty years worth of crazy. Wrestling stores is amazing storyteller. Whereas I kind of get into more of the business of the business and in exposing or. Or discussing not exposing secrets, but discussing you know, how the industry actually works. And how can I think it works people? How people assume it works, but how it really works and my audience for the most part plans, pretty interesting. But really, it's it's chemistry. I think in. And the hard work to Conrad puts into shows, which brings me to my next point before jumping my plane to Chicago one are you in Conrad gonna be bit debut your show soon. Right after wrestlemanias are playing somewhere within a week or two after wrestlemainia. We're going to launch that face of business. So should be found. Listen, I look for to seeing you in shove buck until you simply muddy come to your show on Monday afternoon and have a cocktail and being retained. How's that? Disappointed. If you don't stop by to my book. Okay, buddy, Eric say travel, Chicago bigwig there and appreciate the time. It is always good to hear from Eric Bischoff. The wreck on tour of sorts successful, no doubt. And he's just great shows this weekend with Conrad Thomson. Tony vanni. They'll also be a taking the stage on the Monday afternoon after Elsa mania as you heard us discuss check all that out follow Eric on Twitter at e Bischoff. So a lot of good things a lot of good show death. I lot of information some tension. Appreciate you gas ascribing to our show apple podcast, you know, Google podcast, Stitcher. Tune in Spotify wherever you get your audio. That's us. Appreciate that very much. It's free to subscribe, your your episodes. Once you subscribe downloaded automatically into the device of your choice. I'm told that works for me. Appreciate the five star ratings very much. They helped us a lot with our marketing and advertising. Five star reviews on those sites. I told you are ad nauseam the gym Russia for at Jimmy dot com. Sat Email thought so your questions we pre shape that next week? Ladies and gentlemen, my buddy, my broadcast partner from all from class champion for one. Tony shivani is going to be joining us. We'll get his take on working with Eric Bischoff. On the stage shows you'll have one under his belt by then. And it's always good catch up. Tony big time baseball phase, my go-to for baseball info. He's a producer, Georgia BULLDOGS basketball football games. He's everywhere. He's ubiquitous. Victis and he works Connie my God. Those cheeks cheeks are so full. I just wanna grab one whole alone. So Tony von here next week help you join us as well. Thanks to Torey Wilson. Thanks to Bischoff. Thanks to you. Thanks, Dennis New York City and all the folks at Westwood One. And all the shifts at sea only only would say that Norman. Slowly, heading back to Norman, folks and all here next week, Lord, willing and the creek don't rise. Remember, do something nicer somebody that's unexpected that you're not expecting a payday frown or a payoff from look in your heart. It'd be a decent human being we need more of those here in this on this planet, and whatever you do don't forget that are tomorrow's are never guarantee. So here in Oklahoma City. I've JR Jinro saying we'll see next week so long everybody Dennis Miller and the Dennis Miller option. You will hear my uncensored take on current events politics. Pop culture and anything else that crosses my mind. You remember that gets redid on say of week skits eight sketches over seventy two year period with so bad sketch that you were waiter was this the Dennis Miller option is free to get on apple podcast. Google podcasts are where every get your puck. From the Westwood One podcast network.

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Episode 161: King of the Ring 1994

Something to Wrestle with Bruce Prichard

2:22:25 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 161: King of the Ring 1994

"Do something. Abramowicz. For. Not a. There's no box of gaming innuendo deal in rumor did you win in there. I will there some. Scared. Bruce. Machine. Hill. Now something wrestling goal. Red. Been Sam that. So good. Pearl. Donald land lack a rattle away. Wrestling. Wrestling. Bruce Prichard a hey, it's Conrad. Tops on your list thing does something to wrestle with verse Pritchard and moose. You're barely with us today. Welcome back to the show, my friend. Well, thank you. It's good to be back Bala jobs. A sound a little bit different of kind of got a few dental issues here. But you know, we're going to get through it and it's all good. They pull six my teeth and six, they've got the top of your mouth is all stitches and recently had some complications and. Mouthful of blood, and now a top lip swollen full of blood, and it's a mass over there and friends would Texas. And as a result, we had to play a bit of a best of last week, but we wanted to drop a little surprise on this week. What we plan to do last week? We're going to deliver you this week, you're committed to cranking out new content every single week. Unless Bruce is in the share Saudi Arabia and then well, we have to call an audible, but let's get to it man. King of nineteen ninety four just past the twenty five year anniversary. This show would down in Baltimore, and it drew sell-out sixty five hundred fans seventy eight thousand dollars was the live gate and it's going to do a one point one Bahrain for two point six million dollar gross. And this is back in the day before there was a pay per view every single month. So this is actually, the first pay per view, since wrestlemainia tin, and the second king of the ring pay per view. You. Do you miss the old days of paper vs being a special occurrence or do you enjoy the fast pace that we're on our feels like as soon as ones over, it's time to start promoting another because it's three or four weeks away? Oh my gosh. Man, I do miss the time in between I miss being able to settle back absorbed. What each just did and build something new and have the time to actually build to it and have some fun building, to get some good television out of a long way, build one big match versus the way that the businesses evolved over the years is that you are constantly, creating big matches all the time to get to bigger matches on the pay per views. So it's, it's a that leapfrog system. The, the leap is gotten a whole hell of a lot shorter than it ever used to be. And this was at a time that we had. You know, it was the big five and this was a fifth of the big five with mania summer slam survivor series rumble. And then we had a king of the ring. Yeah. We thought this was like how we gonna do five of these year? Let's talk a little bit about something else that you started a sort of transition to the company, you run some commercials in here pushing the new generation, and this has been talked about a lot. But, you know, you're comparing sort of the, the old regime the hulk HOGAN era with being slow moving prodding old elderly, Bob, LA just still going to manage to have some of that on your own, too. But. It does feel a little weird. It doesn't feel like something Vince would normally do it, it feels like vents, quote, wouldn't sell it. But now the HOGAN is gone, and it's become apparent he's gonna debut with CW next month in a pay per view bash at the beach with RIC flair force, that's going to really turn things around for WCW and continue that momentum with nitro. We know what's coming with the end of yoga, but we're already saying. Hall Cogan shots across the bow here. And so we're talking about new generation, but we're also promoting macho man, and we're talking about how this isn't the old slow plodding guys you've seen before, but, oh, check out my bowl. What did you think of the, the positioning of the new generation specifically shitting on whole Cohen? Well, you know, I don't think so much shitting on HOGAN is was trying to distance herself from the past and trying to distance herself from what the company had been associated with for many years. And when you still have that lingering over your head, and you're trying to promote Bret Hart, people are going to constantly compare Bret to hulk no matter what you do. See you have to do whatever it is. You can't on your side to, to change that change that narrative. How the hell you wanna do it? And I'll never forget sitting in a room with marketing experts and, and one of the things is. You know, you've heard me talk about it before, when we made the move to focus on Brett, we would often ask ourselves what would we do in this situation, if it were hulk whether it was marketing or promotion or match whatever it is. You know, you'd say okay, well if it was hulk, what would you do? And you try and apply that logic. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it didn't because Brett was different. Brett was new in that role. And we're sitting around all these marketing geniuses shit. I even want to say that we had an outside company at the time that had come into advises and try and help us out with some of these different ideas that we had and. The one that stuck was, you know, win a brand new cereal or, or an old cereal or, or coke or Pepsi or whatever they want to reinvent themselves. It's, you know, the new and improved the new co the new, you know, the new and improved corn crisps, whatever the fuck it is. And it was new and improved. It's new so people no matter all you, do you put that fresh paint a code on it. God, you know, you've got you've got something new. So Brent was that new fresh paint, Akot? So. It was new and improved. And we were looking at guys like the one two three kid razor and in diesel and Shawn and just a younger batch younger in comparison to what the previous regime had been solicits them up in the forefront. And as we get into this car, you'll see how well that worked out. Yeah, I wanna talk about this, actually for the goddamn, closer. Well, yeah, so let's talk about. I mean, this is the complement I was driving to it's, it's more. It's not neces- doesn't feel like. If it was like a marketing decision, but not necessarily one that Vince is totally on board with. Maybe he is taking the advice of got put new and improved on it, and that don't maybe get some renewed interest. Okay. I get that. But he still sorta goes with what he knows your main event is Roddy piper, who's forty years old, and Jerry Lawler, who's forty four years old. And I think this is the first time in WBF history. The two guys who are forty plus or headlining paper. So at the same time, we're pushing throughout the show. This is the new generation, we literally have the oldest main event in company history at that point. Well, in our viewpoint, the king of the ring was the main event. And that's the way that we tried to position it your feature match. Yes. Without a doubt. One of the main attractions was the old timers in Roddy, and Jerry. And you look at it now, hell their kids in comparison in both of them could still go. But when you are looking at, and I think that from the overall viewpoint looking at a goal and new and improved. We'll dam and it's bring me back Roddy piper, and Jerry lawler's one hundred years old in Jerry Lawler, one hundred years old, Jerry was still nude our audience right at that time. So at least that was new, but hot rod was a blast from the past. So that was kinda mixing the new with the old and try to hell elevate the new generation, if you will. Well, everybody knows what I'm about to do AJ styles. Forty two. To John CENA is forty two. So what we're talking about these guys as if all they're so past their prime piper. Here's forty and lawler's forty four. So it's not that old of a man of it, but it is an interesting marketing decision to sorta talk about old wrestling, and poke fun at the competition. But at the same time, we've got the new guys and then oh Germaine event. It's a couple dudes macho man's on this show. And we're gonna talk about him. Unfortunately, for drawing the short straw on having to carry art Donovan, this entire show. But how did he feel about the promotion of the, the new generation near specifically taking shots whole Cogan, which depending on the day of the week, he was probably four. He's probably four in this era. But he's got a wonder. Hey, wait a minute. I don't wanna be done in the ring. What's that mean for me right? Yeah. But this is also during the time that Randy was indicating to us. The wanted to be done in the ring. Randy didn't wanna take bumps anymore. Randy was looking at this period in his life to make the move into the office. He wanted work, by the scenes. And I think that pride and everything else that Randy never wanted to get out of the ring, but at the same time, the realistic, the business side, Randy will say, yeah, you know, let me get it over the ring that's going to be hard today. To get out of the ring and get behind do the commentary do the color commentary. But also help us out with creative as well. And that was a decision on Randy Savage's side in Randy liked pushing the new young talent. One of Randy's charges per Randy himself, was I'll show you how to get these new guys over off show. You all get them over because it's going to take an old timer like needs to do it. So he had that attitude and contrary to so many of the things that, that I've heard in other people have reported over the years. Randy wasn't that bitter guy. I don't wanna don't wanna get out of the ring right now time, Randy was the guy that was pushing the young kids, Randy was guy, pushing man let, let me, let me get in there and help out, let me go onto the next stage of my life in this career because I don't wanna be battered down and beaten up when I'm fifty sixty years old. Let's talk about where we are in the business of the world. Wrestling federation, your average attendance in June ninety three two thousand six hundred ten fans a year later up eleven percent two thousand nine hundred and forty fans. Your gate is also up about ten percent going from thirty three thousand and change to thirty seven thousand change, and you're actually selling out some half shows here not a tone, but it's still happening ratings are down just a little bit. But maybe not enough to really mention, but something that is worth mentioning meltzer's gonna report that the Steiner brothers no show opening weekend because they're trying to quit apparently they tried to give earlier in the week they've been unhappy with their pay for months, but used to guarantee from WCW, and they were running around three hundred thousand dollars with w and they had a backup plan to go work in Japan where they thought they could make. About twelve grand a week and meltzer's gonna freestyle and his report that they're probably going to have to sit out the remainder of their contract, which wouldn't expire until mid December, at least as far as North America's concern, but they could still work. These new Japan shows Meltzer, say, really the Steiner's titan relationship was doomed when they signed the big money, new Japan contract, because it set a bad precedent in that a titan push commodity, what have a higher money priority somewhere else Steiner's before that were scheduled to win the tag belts wrestlemainia, but instead weren't even put on that card when they are legally allowed one would expect return WCW in a nineteen ninety-five or both work and w w an new Japan, all the current economic climate in W W sites that there is a good chance. They won't be able to get a deal like the originally have CW, which could stand in the way of being a given that they'll return while we have no confirmation of this one last week. Thrall aired invincible man did commentary about the brothers not getting along? And the mass looks like stays one of Scott. He'll turn several who knew remarked that they felt they quit if the apparent direction continued, because that was a big problem years ago under Bill watts wanted to break them up, and turn Scott. He'll, and that resulted in them quitting, so talk to us a little bit about why the Steiner's run came to an end here, you know, meltzer's sort of free styling, maybe creatively, you guys were bored with him as a tag. Maybe it was time to split and then we're going to be happy with that. Was it all money? And what do you take of? Or what do you make of Dave's assertion that, hey, they're bigger money, priorities new Japan? And as a result, WBZ won't push them. And they changed the creative for no tag titles. Not even a match. In fact, at wrestlemania a lot of it was money, I think, a lot of it will is having to do with their own self. Worth and what they thought they were worth and coming in obviously, we would have loved to have had them make a whole hell of a lot more money than they were making at the time. Business was down and business wasn't in a position where they were able to make the money that they thought that they should've been earning. Vince did cut them a deal. Vince did allow them to have the Japanese agreement separate from us, and allow them to do some of those dates. But it also does the, the issue of creative and happened WCW too. But the reason being and I do think that, once they finally pulled the trigger that they found that, that may have been the answer quite some time was turning Scott. He'll and using Scott. Splitting the brothers up because they did have a very natural competitive chemistry, anyway, both of those guys and Scott was. A natural he'll so whenever that was brought up the brothers felt loyalty to one another, which is great, and they weren't comfortable with making that switch at the time they wanted to continue to be the brother tag team and be the dominant tag team. When the feeling was, there was more money creatively on the other side. Splitting them up, making them singles and letting them each go their separate way. So it was a combination of all the above. It was the perfect storm that think they fell we'll, I can just sit at home. I can go do my Japanese deal and maybe I won't make as much money, but I've also won't be working and beaten my body's much anymore either. And then they would have to do with the, you know, wanted to do talk to me a little bit about the season events is rationale on leading. Letting him go to work Japan, lending Steiner's work Japan, because we're going to see. What two years later? Yeah. Two years later, Scott hall was going to ask to this. I think it turned down. What lesson is their lesson? The Vince learned from the Steiner agreement that he was like, I'm fucking never doing this again. And that's why turned it out for Scott hall. It's two different things. See we built Scott hall, and we had built the razor Ramon character under our umbrella and had built that character, and that was r I p the Steiner's built their IP in, they had had their characters at who they were they were there before they came to us, and they had had their deal before they came to us, Scott was trying to read the wards off of the IP and everything the investment that we had put into Scott hall. So that's the difference. The investment was RS the investment in the Steiner's in the beginning with new Japan. That was, there's so Vince again, he he made an agreement, and I don't know that he would make that same agreement, you know, again after. That he did. Learn a lesson. But it was also a different it was a different structure, if you will. Let's let's keep it moving here. Because we've done a whole show on the Steiner's, if you'd like to hear more about that you can check it out something to wrestle dot com. It's in the comms meltzer's gonna report that there's some bad news for titan sports and that the criminal indictments against the company have been rewritten to additional charges being added bringing the total to five counts three against Vince and two against titan both new cancer similar charging both McMahon and the company with possession and intent to distribute anabolic steroids on April. Third, I'm sorry. Thirteenth nineteen eighty nine and in the cat against McMahon the diamond claim he knowingly and intentionally possessed with intent to distribute to a WBF performer known to the grand jury a substance containing anabolic steroids for use in humans other than for the treatment of disease. So, you know, this we're knee deep in the middle of this mess. With the hoary and, and all the fallout and the real push here is what the government is going after it issue to indictments increase the maximum penalty against McMahon upon conviction from eight years to eleven years in federal prison in the trial currently scheduled for July the fifth at the Nassau County courthouse in Uniondale, New York, the amount of potential fines against titan sports. Mcmahon with the added indictments are two million dollars, and the most damaging potential penalty. The government's attempt to seize titan towers, the WBF's nine and a half million dollar office complex. Stanford was dropped a few weeks ago as was widely reported. Titans lawyers have a hearing on April twenty ninth before judge Jacob mish ler in an attempt to get the case dismissed before trial. So I guess it's good news. But, you know, hey there aren't coming after the building anymore, but they're still piling on these counts. This has got to be the most stressful time in Vince McMahon's entire career as a not, not a doubt. Because at this point, the government was just grasping at straws. They realized that they didn't advocates they realize that everything that they were doing was just a witch hunt. They weren't getting any evidence. They weren't getting anything substantial got a lot of save rumor and innuendo bullshit. But nothing that actually added up to anything that there was no illegalities. There was it was just something that they kept trying to Trump up more and more charges. So if you have one that may seemingly look like, okay there might be a little smoke over here. Will let's file another one very similar to that. Now there's going to be to same charge same shit. Same everything, but different name. And let's try that. Because then it'll add up it'll make it look worse. And that is what the, the federal government just continued to do. They just kept trying to intimidate the kept trying to add things that were just aronie ass- and completely false to try and make their case, look, stronger look bigger in the public eye, and it was bullshit. And it quickly got thrown out, and it was laughed at which is another reason that so much of this everything got closer and closer to the actual trial taking place that the government was just losing face with the judge with court and everybody else because going, what do you really have do you have anything and they were quickly finding out that that house of cards? Let's let's keep it moving here because this is obviously, you know, the basis of the entire I mean, this is really what in this era, the newsletter spent most of their time talking about as well. They should but we've done a whole episode on the steroid trial, which is available in the archives. You can check it out. Now something wrestle dot com. But I do want to mention that, you know, once they got digging here becomes, as you said, a house of cards, and they're just grabbing whatever including a report on April twenty second the New York, New York Daily News saying that Vince, McMahon ordered Howard Finkel in February of ninety the take an HIV blood test on behalf of Terry Belaya, so fraudulently because it's required by the state licensing authority, and this makes all the New York radio and TV media, the route the market that weekend. And they start do stories on a current affair and everything else. I mean, don't get me wrong. I understand, you know that at this point we're just trying to dig up anything we can. But fresh off of an and maybe some folks are too far removed from that era or too young to remember it. But what Magic Johnson got Chevy. I mean it created a whole new awareness in America. At least. With the different section of America and the idea that now. You know, there's a report that someone had to take an HIV test for whole Cogan. My goodness, people are going to jump to some crazy conclusions on that. Are they not? Well, okay. A report. Right. Right. Rumor rumor a bunch of bullshit. And internally, never heard that and heard it externally, which is laughable, because if anyone that ever has known Howard Finkel Howard Finkel believe they call them a loyal Lieutenant. Yes. Howard would do anything. But the last thing that Howard would do would be lie. And the last thing that Howard would do would put himself in a position where he would have to testify or where he would have to do something. He couldn't do it, Howard would break, he couldn't do it. Right. And. I don't think Vince would ever put him in that kind of a position to do something like that. So it was rumor it was nasty. It was it was mean-spirited, but it was another tactic to get people say, hey, look at these dirty bastards look at this shit, they're doing. We have no proof of this. But I'll bet you that they had Howard Finkel do it, because Howard does it do drugs Howard. Does it do anything he's a loyal soldier hill? Do whatever, Vince, McMahon tells them to that evil bastard. Probably told them to do it. That's just bullshit. But here's the thing, here's the result of the report, though, a current affair starts to freestyle HOGAN has aids, which is just in vain, but they turn this one little report into a six story and even go interview David Schultz. And they're asking him. Hey, did you try to freestyle? How did again get hey there's an real aids hysteria. After after John, where people who weren't talking about it, it wasn't anyways radar. Now with Magic Johnson more people know about it than ever before. And it's just it's a it's a fear. You can't drink after someone in wash your hand, a weird hysteria in a may in America where people just didn't really understand it. And so they're free styling current affair here. And they're saying, oh, did he, did he share steroid needles with anyone? And it's just unbelievable to me that the jump to the conclusion. Oh, that must mean HOGAN has aids and they didn't want anybody to know. Right. And, you know, there was that hysteria. I remember even in the gym during that time every every the sheen had a spritz bottle of disinfectant. They would guard against. Any disease borne illness and shit after every time you worked out on a machine, you had to use their whites and spray it down and clean everything off. 'cause if you've got someone else's sweat on you, you would get aids. I it was it was hysteria was blown out of proportion. We didn't know a lot about it, and it was scary because you did know we weren't nearly as educated on the disease as we'd become later on. And I think that people would play on that hysteria to just instill fear wherever the hell they could. And if you could say all, wow, look at hall Cogan. Well, he's doing something they're wrong. And if Magic Johnson right now, then the a sweetheart got HIV, then hulk Hogan's gotta have it, and that, and that was actually. The rationale. Unbelievable ludicrous. As if this weren't enough in the middle of all the steroid nonsense that Vince is trying to battle through and business being down and guys not being happy with their payoffs and saying they're going to sit at home. This is also the area where the Chuck Austen thing is going to trial, always talked about this in our rockers episode, but we should briefly, mention that Chuck Austen is an enhancement talent is going to suffer a broken neck, and December nineteen ninety television taping against the rockers, the trial began on April nineteenth and the injury comes when Marty Jannati doesn't move where he puts his leg over Austin's neck and jumps down and Austin lands on his head instead of his face. And that paralyzes him from the neck, down Austin spell suit in nineteen Ninety-one suing Marge, Nettie, Shawn Michaels, and titan. We've talked about this before. But one of the expert witnesses brought in by Tyden as dean Malingco, the others killer, Kowalski whereas if you're looking for somebody to saddle up against Vince McMahon. Chuck Austen brings in Bruno San Martino, golly, what a what a tangled mass where you've got your top draw now testifying against you. And that was a I guess, two generations ago, but one generation ago it's all in the paper that you helped cover up the fact that he has aids, and you're on trial for your life for twenty years, and your businesses down, and your top draws now going to show up for the competition next month in the biggest super pay per view that you had a chance to vote, but didn't. Fuck you kind of feel bad for vents in this era there, like how much more can take a decision, of course, comes down in this Chuck Austen case. He's awarded twenty six point seven million dollars by jury on April twenty ninth originally, they were only asking for three point eight million, and then eventually asks for seven million, but they decide to just stack it up the jury awards, four point two million for medical bills, and rehab sixteen million for pain and suffering. His wife is going to get five point five million for her suffering. And it's too signs are going to get half a million apiece because while their father has been limited in what he can do for them now. So unbelievable, that all of this is happening at the same time as a not. Yeah, it really is. But it also goes to the. Testament. Everybody likes to say bad shit about Vincent, man. I'm often painted as Vince McMahon apologised, but when you look at the facts, and you get down to the nitty gritty I, I like to share the story. Jerry mcdevitt shared with us. Jerry mcdevitt was Vinci's attorney throughout all of this still is and mcdevitt tells a story of like during this very time period where everything was coming down, and it seemed every day we were hit with what's next show. Another bombshell, another bombshell. This one's coming down the pike. These guys are suing you for this guy's gonna see for that. This one's doing this and mcdevitt invents had been at the office all day long, and it was a late night coming out of office, and a Nick, janitor was in the hallway and. And all wanted to do was get the hell out of the office. Is he mcdevitt were done? They wanted to get out and when Vince saw Nick their Vint sat there and talked to Nick for twenty minutes. About his wife, who was going through some hard times at home. In. There was nothing more important to vents at that point, the Nick and his family all the shit. It was raining down on him. In Vinci, sat there and his briefcase down and set out and bullshit with Nick janitor. Who had been with the company, two years, great guy. And that's you know that's the shit that. His worlds to some people is collapsing all around him in. He's holding it all up instill, just worried about. Everybody else. And that that's shit. You don't hear about. That's shit that people go. Okay. Wow. He did that now that's kinda shitty. Does every day in in does it but you just don't hear about. And that's what pains me when you look at all this, and they kept heaping all this, but Nick, the janitor would never know that all he knew was, Vince McMahon. Eleven thirty twelve o'clock at night while he's in cleaning, the office Santa, Ana talked with him. Made him feel better for that day. So, yes, there was just shit after shit after shit every day, the came on us in, I would say, probably war on us more. I know I know it wore on Vince, but he was never going to let it show. And he would always be the one to reassure us just put your head down. Let's get through it. We know what the facts are if we stay with the facts we stay with what's happening. We take care of our business. Everything else is gonna take care of self. So let's muster through and do a we have to do. We have to pay our dues. We pay our dues and we move the fuck on. That's what we did. I guess we should mention, you know, these lawsuits in this era, keep coming because I think ninety four is the year where Ventura one his settlement as well. Did he know it? It was around that time. Yeah. Jesse Jesse want a lawsuit on the videotapes like eight hundred and ten grand right? Something like that. Yeah, it was a hefty amount. It's just amazing to me that, you know, you got the Chuck cost and thing and live in terra thing. And the steroid thing all at the same time. I mean, really the same time lawn and in this Chuck Austen thing, sort opens the floodgates because another enhancement talent in the Tampa area James Goss esky is going to sue titan sports, and to talk over Nick back and other injuries. He says, happened on a March life, teen ninety two television, typing saying that the talk didn't follow the script and injured him. And then after he alerted him that he was injured the taco continued to pound on him. Golly, what a precedent that we set here, we nervous when this Chuck Austen thing came down that man, it's like the old telephone telegram, Tila wrestlers the this is gonna be a thing now where everybody is going to, because they were hurt. Well, obviously the cost and deals, extremely serious accident in that was something that paralyzed him. And he was in a really, really bad way that. You know, it's an unfortunate accident. I don't know how else to say you don't want that to happen to anybody. You don't want that to happen to your worst enemy, but it does shed light on, okay? What do we do to help prevent these kind of accidents is better training on the other side is better training on our side, is there, you know, some better way to screen who were going to use for our events. And for years, the business had been conducted in a certain way that you use. Hey, this is a good guy. He's a good worker. He can work with anybody can can you do this yak yet. I can do it. Okay. Great. We'll do it and they didn't know so the, the screen process needed to be improved. And that's what it forced us to do. But I think it did for some people that. You know, may have just made a wrong turn and got an injury versus serious accident something to try and milk it for more than it was worth, and I and I don't I'm not familiar with the other case stock at all. But the Chuck Austen one was one that just made us sit up and take notice. What do we need to do to make this safer, work environment for everybody involved? Kerr Haning is, is not what the company here. He's gonna leave in the spring of ninety four is going to be gone for little over years going to come back and late ninety five do some commentary, and he's doing an interview somewhere in this era, where he's saying that he's not coming back because he has a set price to return McMahon didn't made his price technically he's under contract through mid November. But Meltzer is going to say that he knows for sure RIC flair wishes that he could join him in WCW. But at least I won't be possible to November, but we know Kurth actually gonna pop back up a year later in the WWF at this point. He's probably got as Lloyd's of London settlement. He doesn't need the money. He just enjoying some home parent. Tom some family time or was there a more frequent dialogue to get back in the ring? Now, card had a great deal Kurt hat is Lloyd's of London deal and Kirk did need Russell. So why would he go and jeopardy? Is that anymore when he was getting good steady income from insurance that he paid for and? In order for him to try to make a return he would have had to forgo whatever that settlement was. With Lloyd's of London in Kurt wasn't interested in doing that for a few reasons monetary, but also risk of injury. He didn't if he was going to go back in and risk his body again and take another injury than he's now lost the money that he would have got from his insurance. And he would lost the money from potential work as well. I can't say I really blamed him would like to have had him back. I think that he could've come back physically. But from his performer point of view in from his standpoint. And that Lloyd's London deal, that's what it was four. The used it, you know, the one guy, you mentioned Rick flair shit flare, if there was anybody that could have used it many years ago. Rick flair and he never did. Because Rick just had that, that paying that he, he had to perform just couldn't help not performing. He'd make less money performing than he probably would have made collectives Lloyd's. London. Yeah. It's, it's interesting because this is a guy who you talk about curt his career. He still in the prom physically if his career he had a lot left in the tank, and we're gonna see him wrestle a little later. But by then it's not the same Kurt. Right. No. Not really. I think it wasn't the same curb because of a little trepidation. Think Kurt wanted to suffer the same injury had before he was in an awful lot of pain. And frankly, he didn't have to work the way that he used to work. Sure. He still is good is pretty much the best out there at half speed. I throw curt Hennig in the Saint categories ado. Shawn michaels. Gimme half Shawn Michaels and he's still better than you know, guys full speed. But Kurt had that pride too. But at least Kurt was smart enough to go. Okay. I can dial a back. I could dial back and I can get through it and I could still be Kurt because he still had the wit still had knowledge and he still had the psychology which. That's one thing, a lot of guys are missing should mention he was a special guest referee, wrestlemainia tan, which was the most recent pay per view. That was during the Yoko, lex Luger world title match. But here it looks like we're going to take a little break in early may he has do a tour of Japan. We've talked about this before, but I'm still fascinated by this Japan tour, and how it came together. It goes down may seventh and the Yokohama arena. You guys draw eight thousand fifty six fans but it's a capacity of seventeen thousand so you know, there's less than than halfway full, and this arena, supposedly has never drawn less than eight thousand so you beat that Mark eight thousand fifty six the next day you're in Nagoya, probably said that wrong on may eighth and you announce six thousand seven hundred and thirty five fans but local folks say probably closer to twenty five hundred the next day you're at the. Soccer castle hall. You've got a fifteen thousand capacity you're going to draw seven thousand and the final nine of the tour is on may eleventh as ten thousand seat arena, twenty three hundred fans what do you think was a miss on this tour of Japan here because you're running fifty percent or less in most of these arenas, did you just not was your television? They're not strong. Did you not use enough local stars? Did you have the wrong local promoter while was the Japan tour here, just a little off? Well, because we did it with Japanese promotion, there in this was during the time of, you know, I'm sure they've Meltzer all his cohorts buddies, we'll speak this because they're the experts because they know everything about span. But it was sponsored shows. And the way that the Japanese tickets structure was was that sponsors, basically bought the shows, and then you get your tickets from sponsors. A lot of them were either free tickets. Or you go in discounted tickets. And they sold the tickets, the promotion, it self was paid for the events. The promotion self was not the promoter. Okay. In this case, we were basically a booking agency that they pay for us to come over and put on shows for them, right? Some stars in what have you. So what we did it will we were paid is not reminiscent of what they drew in what they were able to bring people in to see our event and it just wasn't. It wasn't a good Sennar g it didn't work out. Well, I don't know if there wasn't enough Japanese talent on the car. Car of recognizable our TV there at the time was Star TV believe of starch pan, and it was we went on, I think it was with ten rows group and another group and the optical world, folks, that time that they wanted to get into the wrestling business, just like a lot of the sponsors, and different people in the old way of doing business new Japan and all Japan hit done for years. So. It's many ways a lot of times, you, you hear about these grand houses in Japan. Well, when you're talking about some of the buildings, all sold out those twelve hundred seat arenas. He's smaller Rina's. These are big arenas. We were running, and they felt they could draw with the WWF just the name alone in there wasn't a lot of promotion any more so than what was done for the smaller cork in halls and things of that nature. So it was a different way of doing it perception wise. I don't know that whatever the one where they say, we only drew well there, they say seven thousand but they really only do two hundred shit like that believe that's probably highly exaggerated in the opposite form to fit their narrative, but they weren't wasn't stellar business made us say shit. Let's go back. There and get our ego boost. Right. And I think what you said about, you know they were a marketing strategy for a twelve hundred seat arena, and I just sort of did what they always did. And as a result, you, you're more than that, but she didn't draw the full house. I mean, that makes sense. And one of the things that I've always enjoyed is the business strategy behind marketing, these live shows. And I know we talked a lot about that in our Royal rumble ninety seven Assode the partnership that you guys had to give away tickets or, or move, the lower price tickets. But one of the things that I found in the research here, this, according to the observer, Domino's pizza has bought a major corporate sponsorship, rumored to be a quarter million dollars for summer slam dominoes delivers WWF summer slam. We'll be the advertising campaign which will include all advertising for the show, the WF heavily plug, Domino's around television in July and August on TV and on the paper you show. Oh, constantly plugging that you should order pizza now Domino's will have summer slam box top on all pizzas delivered in July and August and says the box tops are already produced the main of advertise for the show will be undertaker versus undertaker. So. Forget the spoiler piece of that, who put a deluxe this together with Domino's, because this is this is fascinating to me. Cking us this was going to be our first. I think I think we'd had as bait your sponsorship for Russell Meinie, yet at this point and Jim Rothschild in New York sales office, who was the vice president of sales in New York, great guy. It, it put this deal together. And it was the national sponsorship, where Domino's would be tagged on everything in a want to say that from the time that we started the promotion until summer slam was like something like sixty million impressions, which was unheard of because we put it everywhere. Right. I mean we had it we had it everywhere every time that Domino's logo came up. That's an impression. And we did it everywhere and it was amazing. The, the best part of it for me was working with Leslie Nielsen and doing all of those, we're gonna find the real undertaker. And go back in, in different things by learn so much about television in film, and just simple storytelling from Leslie Nielsen during the, the several weeks of working with him class act class guy, but he was he was a spokesman for it as well on our side. So we had gone out. We, we've got Leslie Nielsen to be the face of it, Domino's paid us. We paid Leslie Nielsen and the promotion did gangbusters for us just sheerly out of recognition because every time that you got Domino's pizza. You got that flyer. Right on top of your pizza for summer slam, and it started early, and it started early before the dam match was even announced, I believe. And it was a hell of promotion. But the most impressive thing of all was the way that we integrated Domino's in every single thing we did we had them delivered at the at the announce desk. We just we didn't we didn't everywhere we went above and beyond to prove to potential sponsors. Here's what our vehicle can deliver. This is what we can do for you. Now you're gonna pay for this. But we're gonna over delivering you're going to get this. I mean, it's a it's a landmark deal for WWE. So finally, some good news should mention the terrible long before king, the ring, Brian lead abuse on TV as the evil undertaker with the million dollar man, of course. That's going to set up the eventual main event at summertime. Ninety four we've talked about that a little bit in the archives as well. But something we've talked about a lot, but Lord, it's been awhile Meltzer report in early June. Jerry Jarrett has moved back from Stamford, Connecticut to his home in Henderson, Tennessee while it hasn't officially completely sever ties with the WWF. He's no longer part of the creative team their reports. Here is going to start a company that would lease jobbers to the major company. So the jobbers would work for him. Now, let's save the company some liability when it comes to the legal Hornets nest that will be wide open. If the Chuck Austen decision isn't reversed. Interesting idea. I suppose any comments of the report him moving home. Finally. Well, Jerry was unhappy, Connecticut. Connecticut was unhappy in Jerry and a believe that Jerry was very lonely in Connecticut without his wife wanted to. He wasn't getting home nearly enough and it just wasn't for him. He didn't fit in. He did not. Said before trying to be nice. I didn't feel Jerry was that creative in, in that environment and. Was not. It was not a good fit in any way, shape or form. And the fact that Jerry Jarrett, was never brought in to run the company events ended up going to jail that was never ever, the truth, that was never the intention, Jerry Jarrett was brought in to consult and to offer whatever advice that he could offer vents on Sunday phone calls. We brought him in try them out in the creative process and quickly realized that, that was not a good fit. And Jerry went hall that, that's the extent. I mean when you when you. When you boil it all down to Jerry Jarrett's involvement is WWE career. That's it. That's, that's, that's it. They're the end. Not much more than that. Well, something I do wanna talk about because it just one line and they observer, but he's somebody you were close with, and very familiar with we've heard the name a ton Meltzer would report basil veto resigned company, vice president. No details have been given what he tell us about the departure of basil Vida. Somebody who have been a staple. What the company for a long time. Basil was a. I'm not gonna call as little promoter. Bob Collins was a promoter basil was a marketing and promotions. Kinda guru in basil a believe come from the NBA variances iast had a lot of great ideas. Lot of energy and basil took us through a lot of those early growing times through wrestlemainia one and two and three things of that nature, four Basil's instrumental in, in getting the deal with Trump plaza. In wrestlemainia four and five and a very integral part of the company that headed up the marketing, and promotions team on that side of the business. And I think that the, the wear and the fatigue of everything going on from the lawsuits, the federal government investigation, and everything going on. I think that the pressure kinda got basil at the time. And there was a fear of if the company went down, that, that would have a adverse Mark on Basil's resume. So he made the choice is a believe his father in law had a company that delivered, you know, oil in the winter. For the heaters up in the northeast and basil took this opportunity to go and help out his father in law during that time and walk away from the company. I think he felt that might be a little more secure in an unsecure environment that. These are my paraphrase words that he. Might have been uncomfortable. And in the what if the bad, what if what if the company goes away? What if we don't come out of this on the other side and all this other shit? So I think that took stole on him. And I think that he wanted some security, a children, a family and decided to take this time to move on. Try something else? How disappointed was Vance with this decision? I think Vince was. I think he was hurt. I think he was disappointed. However, just like everything else, it was okay. Let's move on bigger and better things ahead as part of it will find someone else who will find someone better. So we gave basil sendoff thanked him for everything he did. And, and we've moved on the next day was just another day at the office. That's what happens. You know. It's just you gotta move on. Gotta keep going. Remember, the, the meeting that we all had it was an offsite meeting, and Vince, asked everybody to give him a standing ovation. When a superstar has great match games. A standing ovation lead Milia preciado him. We did that for basil. We had dinner and that was it and basil came back years later with the XFL and has been apart. He's been on the board of directors for the company. But he's, he's one of those guys that has a way of being able to put deals together and. In, in, in communicate with vents, which can be tricky sometimes, but he has a good way communicating with vents. Let's talk about the nineteen ninety four hall of fame. You guys have a ceremony for that early, June at the Omni inner harbor international hotel Arnold Scotland would be inducted by Bob back, Lynn Bobo, Brazil would be inducted, Barney lad, buddy Rogers for being -ducted by Brad Hart. Chief Jay strongbow would be inducted about the taka classy, Freddie blassie would be inducted by Regis, Philbin gorilla, monsoon would be inducted by Jim Ross. And how about this little footnote James Dudley would be inducted by Vince, McMahon, and lots of people have sort of free styled over the years. Hey, if this guy goes in the only guy who can induct him has been so Iran and the name, you hear most often with that now is the undertaker, but we've also heard reports at least this year or if even mentioned Vince McMahon's name. Find your ass fire. Heard James Dudley going into the hall of fame and Vinson duck again, we've got some listeners who may not be familiar with James Studly and his family relationship with the McMahon's chat, everybody up about who James was, and while Vince wanted to be the one to induct him. Well, James Dudley was the original bad badly, ROY Brown. When I say the rigid, bad badly ROY Brown. I'm not talking about the wrestler. I'm talking about the man Jim crow. She wrote the song about and. James Dudley was one of the top stars of the negro league the baseball negro league and absolute just topnotch. Baseball player that before segregation had Jim Dudley had the opportunity to play in the majors he would have been a huge star a giant of a man, and he was from Washington DC. He had a relationship with Vincent. Father Vincent, Jess McMahon senior, and they did business together. Because if you get to do business in certain parts of Washington DC, there were segregated parts, where it was very difficult for. People to do business for a black man to do business in the white part of town, and white man to do business in black, part of town will James Dudley was able to bridge, that with Vince McMahon in James Dudley was able to go in assay, then Masnada sky, we're going to do business with him. If anybody has a problem with it. Then you've got a problem with me. So Jim helped vents tremendously in his business. Vents brought James into the wrestling business. James was also the first manager for Bobo Brazil in wrestling. So Vince McMahon made him a manager as well. But mister Dudley who is how I referred to him out of reverence and great deal of respect because of his life. Just an incredible life story of everything that he came up. Through and from what he lived through, and was one of the kindest, most gentlest people you'd ever wanna me but mister Dudley would come into Baltimore. He would go into Vince office, which was about the size of shoe closet. It could hold maybe four people. Mister Dudley would sit in Vince office all night long. Vince would do business all around him with Jim just sitting there. And nobody gave it a second thought some people walk into who's the guy in there within. So that's mister Dudley. Okay. Vincent always ever anybody would come in and say, gentlemen, please allow me introduce you to Mr James Dudley and everybody. Hello, no one knew who he was. He stayed by Vince aside to care of Vinson yer to care of then Kennedy and. Was a trusted and loyal friend employees. And one of the tough son of bitches you ever wanna meet in your life in an incredible athlete. It's just when people speak of the, the negro league in baseball. James Dudley's name, always comes up really. Yes. Because he was he was one of those top stars, he drew. He drew and had he hit. He come along just, you know few years later. And he'd be one of those guys you talk about Jackie Robinson, and you'd be talking about James Dudley, too. That's a big statement. Talk to me, a little bit about the rumor innuendo that oftentimes cease sitting in Vinci's office, if he thinks this next fella might be a problem. A make no mistake. The perception was James Dudley was for lack of a better word, Vince McMahon's heavy. And so as he's in there of maybe this next fell, I was going to be a problem James just casually. Pulls out a straight razor and starts sharpening, it or visiting with, it might have been in the old days of, of Vinson yer never saw that or heard that with vents Vincent Kennedy, but definitely with, with his father that, that probably was the reputation, even if it never happened. I'm sure that was reputation because James can take any shit off. Anybody? It's just fascinating to me that, you know, so many fans these days are like, oh, who's going to be the? I got Vincent ducks. It's like wow. That happened twenty five years ago other and it meant in that one probably meant more events than anything took care of his. I mean it's a special place in the family. Not just it's not just business. That's family at that point, look, and you look at the, the list of presenters unbelievable. It was Ernie Ladd and Bobo Brazil. Bobo was another another guy that when you, you talk about class. Bobover Zil was just old school pure class. Just a gentleman gentleman and. Huge man. Just great stature had a presence about him when he walked in a room. You went holy shit that somebody and big smile on his face. Charming, this could be and course, be inducted by the big cat on a lab, and in Arne being up there in Ernie being able to lay down the speech that he gave about Bobo Zil, and I'm going to beat the blackout of your boy, and these were things that, that was how they drew, and it was, you couldn't get away with any of that today, but Bobo in Ernie has so much respect for each other. And Ernie had a way about him of articulating and talking people into the arena and the legendary rivalry between both. Oh, when Ernie and the two of them together just just to see them together, after all those years was, was amazing to me, and then Regis Philbin, coming in and doing Fred blassie at Fred blassie bringing. Damn near the whole whole room to tears, his, his wife miakel. She, she was wonderful, wonderful woman off from Japan, and Freddie has this. Gruff. Exterior, however, with his wife, he was a little teddy bear in on this one night. You got the gruff legendary classy, Freddie, blassie you, pencil neck, geek. And I'm going to do all this to you too. Get on up here. You little Jap and come get some. And everybody was just a aghast. He only he just referred to his wife this way. And he got up and proclaimed his love for his wife, and how this woman had it kept him alive and was the most wonderful thing in his life in presented her with this big diamond broach and all this shit. And she just. Another one. It was this group of people that went in were just so. Reverence to me man, this was a special hall of fame, because it was those guys that were the foundation of the business back in the day. You know what I mean? And, and Regis, Philbin jumping at the chance to asking, Jen dot Fred blassie because of their history, and California. When Fred blassie was making his name out there, and Regis, at a television show, and, and Regis, put him on, because he loved wrestling any lead, Freddie. That's what I got to know Regis. And it was just it was just a magical magical neat night, buddy Rogers being inducted hair by Bret Hart. Tell us about that. You know, buddy being buddy. Was. I'll say buddy to the outside. World was the appear to me a class, I don't know. For those that new. I don't know that everyone would agree with that, right. Buddy Rogers was a character. And he to me, you know, he was the original nature, boy, and he was buddy, fucking Rogers man to a nicer guy couldn't happen. Buddy was an original rebel, you know, he, he was the NWEA champion. He went. And he did the jump events, dropped the belt of bro. Went on and went back and forth and just had this persona about him that he carried himself in a way that he was larger than life. He was just so flamboyant, he was so. Everything that you would expect from the nature. Boy, and obviously Rick flair emulated a lot of buddy Rogers traits and then to have Bret Hart who was the new generation. Right. To be able to end in duct, buddy was a pretty cool deal because in many ways, they were about as anti you could get. On opposite sides of the spectrum Brett was Brett Brentwood traditionalist. In buddy was flamboyant one, however, they did still have that same respect for the business. And of course, to talk inducting chiefs, Jay strongbow, you had a real Lombi Indian inter. And in ducking the Italian Joe Scarpa. But, you know, the people knew him as chief, Jay strongbow. And so he was honorary Indian for everybody else. And, and of course, gorilla monsoon, I, I would say that was probably one of the biggest thrills of Jim Ross is life is to be able to have that honor. Of. GM you know, inducting girl monsoon God. It's Gino, I think there was a lot line of people that would want to. I don't remember what the situation was with Bobby at this point. I don't Bobby wasn't with us. And. Bobby was the guy that should have done guerrilla. Oh, absolutely. But you know, if not Bobby than Jim Jim was a I think Jim was more thrilled than anybody. Let's, let's talk about king of the ring. But first, we should set the stage. The first qualifying match goes down may seventh where I r s defeat Scott Steiner the match air on superstars the next qualifying match happened on the may ninth episode of raw where razor Ramon would defeat, claiming or Kwong depending on what day of the week it is for Bruce may fourteenth Mabel would be pier on may sixteenth. Bam. Bam. Bigelow would be sparky. Plug a may twenty first shift Jarrett. Would get a win over, lex Luger by count out when crush came down and fought lex outside of the ring Owen was scheduled to wrestle earthquake on may twenty third for a spot in the tournament. But the plans changed when earthquake leaves the company and to explain his absence, the WWF shows footage of yokozuna wrestling earthquake and claimed that earthquake had sustained an injury and doing what wind up taking a spot, and of course, Owen wins that. Match on the may twenty eighth superstars the one-two-three kid would pin atom bomb and on the final qualifying match. Jimmy del Ray was originally scheduled to face to talk on raw on may thirtieth, but crush winds up taking del race place. The reason given is the crushes manager, Mr. Fuji made a deal with Jim cornet, though, raise manager to allow crush to compete, the match ends a double count out after Fuji and chief Jay strongbow, who was with the talker. Get involved. And this leads to a lumberjack match on raw the following week, which to talk wins after Luger interferes on the Mets doesn't air, June sixth, which is around a week after the latest edition of the WB magazine shipped out to subscribers. And in that issue to talk already listed in the tournament brackets squaring off with Owen Hart in round one. I mean, I guess shit happens. There's nothing you can do to fix this or prevent, but it's got to be a little embarrassing for those involved. Right. Well, it was they going off of the Karnak says, right? Cigar neck was wrong a couple of months three months ahead of time. And he fucked that one a bastard. What are you what are your member about earthquake leaving the company here? I mean it's weird that he was a part of it. And then winds up not being. Well, John, this time, John was also a little discontented. I think that Jon add the he'd been over in Japan. John was a big star Japan in the sumo world. And there was just a lot of rumblings, guys felt that they had done their time and weren't going anywhere. So they were looking for new avenues, and with all the looming lawsuits and everything else going on. It was a tough decision for talent your contracts coming up. Do you want to whether this out, or do you want to sit out see what the hell's going to happen? And John was one of those was in that situation. Plus, he had an opportunity of same thing that go back to Japan and maybe make some good money and not have to travel as much and that was what was weighing on him. And he just looked at it as opportunity is body was breaking down. Jaaz big guy, and he needed to he needed some time off and felt that maybe getting the rest by not working every week goal, to Japan's just a few times that might give him the rest he needed. When guys are feeling like well, it's not ever. Explicitly said. Certainly some guys are like, oh fuck man. Now's the time to jump off this sinking ship this sort of make a list about. Remember that? Vince understood, I Vince, especially during this time Vince understood because we weren't signing new talent. And when you're not signing new talent law the old talents look around on well shit who do I have left work with? And what is there left for me? So you, you gotta make that business decision of. Maybe WCW done wanna maybe they don't have room for them. They had a roster full guys that they couldn't afford during this period. So. It just was a tumultuous time. There wasn't a whole lot of choice. And if you didn't have that Japanese or the European connections, where you go and get work, you know, four to five times a year for extended periods of time yet to do something. And it was lesser to eagles, which way you're going to go and. Yeah, we'll tough. It really was tough. But I think that everybody just had to make their own decision away at out in their own mind with their own families and see what's best for them. We should mention that as, if this isn't enough on Vance all the stuff we've ran through with lawsuits, and steroid trowel, and all the business challenges that we're going through. He's gonna miss the king of the ring because he's got a herniated disc that he suffered. And then had to have repaired surgically on less than a week prior to this. Is this the first pay per year? A member were vents wasn't there. Yeah. It was sure so was. And it was also during the time I remember going through, and the first CV that we took Vince to which was after this was White Plains and. Linda was terrified because Pat was driving, and she's like, Pat don't hit any bombs, he can't be jarred. He can't do this and can't do that. And I think Pat did was tear out of the parking lot with Vince loved laughed zaslov of. But yes, this was the first pay per view, that we were going to be sands, Vince, we don't TV's without him, but not the pay per view. So as a result of Vince missing this, it's gorilla monsoon. It's Randy savage and it's fucking art. Donovan doing commentary. Now. I would assume the original plan prevents the be the guy and they're not art and you guys had to call an audible, and he went with a linebacker from the colts in the fifties and a hall of Famer, but wow, Jamie up. How does art Donovan getting this spot? Well. That's a funny story. We you know, and it wasn't because Vince wasn't there? If events had been there probably would have done the play by play in place of monsoon because he had the poor with Randy and had been working with Randy, and it probably would have been a little bit of a different dynamic, and monsoon working with Randy was new as well. So you got new Randy in monsoon, and then you add in this guy that. Last watch wrestling match. Probably on the DuPont network with gorgeous George. In our we ball to more are Donovan was a big name in Baltimore and art was doing a television show. And he also did a radio show. They're very quick. Witted. Funny off the wall. But football oriented shit Baltimore oriented shifts. So people in Baltimore he was he was a hometown, son. He was he was there guy who's lovable art Donovan, and, and people enjoyed his, his wit and his whacking nece, if you will. But then there's the rest of the world. The does know who the fuck art Donovan is or care. So. We had gone back and forth, and, and Kevin had a report with our Kevin Don and thought. Well, we could try this guy will mean something for Baltimore sell some tickets in Baltimore, and who knows. If he's half as entertaining as he is in the shit that he does a Baltimore. Maybe he can adapt man. Maybe you know monsoon can bring it out of him savage can bring it out of him. You can have some fun asking some, some wacky fan questions from the standpoint of. Of a guy that's never seen wrestling before. And throw out some weird observations. Well that partly out. Yeah. How quickly do you realize? Let's talk about the prep when you, you make the pitch. You make the offering make the presentation does anybody say, okay? We gotta get him all these tapes, and he's come to the production meeting or I'm not saying that we addict. I mean, clearly none of that happened. But maybe son of it should have. When did you realize fact, this up? When the camera Rome. Win. The red light went on. No. I don't you know what I don't think any of that would have helped I don't think that him watching second take. Here's what I mean. Like had he been production meeting or watch type of so many guys. My, my question is woods. Whoever was with him, wouldn't they maybe at that point said? I'll fuck we can't do this. We need to call an audible and get out of this. We were already there. I mean we were already there and it was. It was awful in many ways, you know, in many ways, we looked at the show on paper, it was a very simplistic show. Straightforward mass tournaments king of the ring, and then yet bi-polar in. And. Lawlor at the end. It's. It wasn't that fucking complicated so tournament. So felt with monsoon savages the anchor. We've got it and Pat ni- pretty much. I mean we had the show in the back of her head. We had in mind, I get a phone call. The morning of from MC. Ricky Medlock of who's. Lead singer for blackfoot. He's with Leonard Skinner now and Ricky's friend of mine. He says, hey man, you guys Baltimore I'm across the street at stadium loved combined. See some of the matches shit and you know if you guys get done come on by the concert. And I'm thinking why suffering shit man? This recommend law. I'm a big fan, Ricky Medlock. I love blackfoot. He wasn't whisk entered yet. But God, dammit, Ricky Medlock and love Ricky, so we'll time your show show. They have an hour hour and a half after us. You wanna come by America beautiful or star spangled banner? This is yeah. Sure. I don't give shit. Sokol vents. Hey. Recommend locks in town across the street and he's, he's able to do the national anthem. I was gonna guess who the fuck is Wicky, man them. Doc is Ricky man lock great blackfoot. What's that? It's, it's rock band manny's. I mean he's doing a stadium show cross the street from us tonight. And uh said he's. Yeah. He's well, no people know, him people know him. Yeah, I know him, you know, one, Stephen easy or fucking Robert Goulet, Ricky, fucking Medlock and. Kazini good. See, he'll be great also be different. But it'll be great. So, hey, Rick man, can you come on by this sound check? And we didn't have the, you know, like now, they've got those really great. Does shit always want onstage? Sorry, folks shits kicking in. I this, you're doing good buddy with with four thousand stages in your mouth and all hopped up on pain pills. We're having fun. Thank you for mecca time. He didn't have the, we didn't have the good monitors in the rain ship. But the like now they have them in your ears was really great where you can hear yourself and you don't have to when you're singing, you don't have that delay, and you need to hear yourself in real time when you're singing, and he comes out and says, I you guys don't have that us tonight because this. All right. I can count. I can do it. I got it. So he did a few rehearsals a thought he sounded grade rookie fucking men lock man. Leonard skinner. There's nothing anybody can say bad about fucking. Rick Medlock of sorry. Matt a love him and. Cements this. I wasn't us. It was great. We'll be good man. It'll be different. We got we got old and we got new. With our Donovan and he got Ricky who current had hit train train all shit. And. We opened the show with Ricky. Cappella. And. I love Ricky, man. Sure about mention if I mentioned, a love, Ricky days, great way, really is great. We got. He's fucking awesome. Man. He is fucking awesome. I. It was fucking horrible. It was it was like godawful shattering, horrible. And you could tell that he couldn't hear himself and I see him counting. And he got through it and I loved him coming doing it. And it took giant coconut balls to call me in the morning. Come over and do a soundcheck and then come over and do our show right before going over and doing a stadium show across the street. And I loved him for it, and I was so grateful. But. It was it, it wasn't one of our finer was not good vocal moments. It wasn't good. And he was dressed like Ricky mad lot, which is cool. But everybody else's in cdo also shit. And then there's Ricky and, and doesn't help that, you know, it's interesting when you look back, and he relies Vince wasn't there. But the production as a little off, like they don't have the lighting right for him when they first go to the announcers, their darkest shit. They're not let their will. There. There was a lot of production snafus here that weren't normal. For the company at the time. It is this, a cost, cutting measure, are you using different folks for different union? Is there less production, mating and attention to detail without Vince? There is a sort of tar with you there. This was a. And I love Roddy piper death. This was a lot of this Roddy piper. You say. I, I was kinda with Roddy piper. And so, when we had Roddy in there were issues, I would deal with, with Roddy, Vince could go deal with everything else in this situation. We didn't have Vince to deal with everything else. It was just Pat ni-. They're running the whole show by ourselves. And I still had to deal with Roddy in there were still just some creative issues to be worked out and. Ronna can be a last minute guy. So I found a lot of my time dealing with Roddy and not being able to pay as much attention as I probably should have to those things making sure that we did a complete rehearsal with the opens and, and the whole nine yards. A relied, a lot on other people to prepare our Donovan, and, and Gino, and everybody and I think I had Jim Ross helping them. But I don't know that there was any amount of preparation that was going to get are in the game. It's just was gonna be let's feed him ago, and see what we come up with a shirt he's going to be just fine. And it was in reality. When you look back at the pay per view, man, it was it was matches. Tournament. The story in the matches and it was that was the story of the night who's going to end up is the king of the rain. Then you got a personal issue. Lawler and piper. And man, let's go have us a wrastling show. This was our this was our wrestling show of the year. You know what I mean? Right. This was the one. This was the tournament folks, you're gonna get competitive matches. You're gonna get you know down dirty. What does that have to do with lighting? I, I didn't have time to go through the ship, man. Okay. Got it. No, that's fine. That's, that's the answer. I didn't have time to go through and look at all of it. We didn't do a lot of the normal just simple. Let's get everybody in position. See how we look. And it was run by the seat of our pants plus. I'm dealing with vents on the phone. Yeah. That's gotta be that's what I was going with. It seems like anytime anything was less than up to his standard, and he's, he doesn't have nine million distractions because he's not on site. He's gotta be wearing your ass out and no cell phone. So the phone was in his office. So now you've got to be in the office to take the call. And you can't run the show and talk to him. Yeah. Into watch the monitor run the show and do everything else. And if you're not there to answer the phone when he's calling then. Let me ask us all in the truck. And the truck is calling you on headset to go to the office to take the call. So it was silly question humor me, as I, I don't know, never been there. The, the production piece is that about something that Kevin Don could a said. Hey, I'll, I'll run hersal today. Sure. Yeah he could of but but Kevin was in the same boat. Kevin same boat on the phone with vents and in Vince talking about every other thing. And you can't you can't do both you can't sit there and talk to vents and then say, okay, guys, let's go through. Let's rehearse us right now. Well, hang on vents I got dammit. It was it was it was challenging. And it was we probably just weren't as prepared as we should have been. We weren't nearly as prepared as we should have been we came into thinking that, man, this can be a piece of cake, right? Smashes s wrestling big deal. Oh, big deal. Yeah, this was matches. This, this one is not have a lot of Gog going on here. And I didn't anticipate because I felt I've done everything I could do ahead of time with with Roddy and Lawler. Would when I came in I felt that was done. Then you get there Robbie wants to talk to sit down, and that's now and a half of your day. Off the bat and then it goes on through the through the night. All through the night. And let's tonight, some of those have to be run by vents and like shit. Let's get into the dark matches sparkplug pinning playing or Quang and would have said to have been a horrible match damn Kwang next best match ever. We ain't event main event anywhere in the inner harbor that night, opening packets the show was actually pretty decent for its time, I up, we've got razor Ramon getting a win over bam. Bam bigelow. They go eight and a half minutes. I found it fun that little door attendance. Didn't open the doors for Luna, and bam. Bam just bust right through the fence comes went Bigalow, on the top rope removed, Saul and Ramon gets up suplexes and backward into the ring for the pin Meltzer were called a fair opener and gave it a star in three quarters to all time greats in here to Gaza who are capable of putting on a really, really great match. But this one was just okay. Understand you may be some of this is we're pacing ourselves. There's a lot of matches. We don't wanna show too much and the opening match. What did you think of this one, and why was razor bam? The first and smartest place to start starpower. You wanna start off with some good starpower and also. It wasn't bad. It was solid. You're not gonna get a lot of action out of. Outta bam. Bam at that time is big guy, and we kinda and transitional place there with him as well. But it was solid and it was too big name. So it was a way to get people up yet to bulls. Colliding in their start thing off, and we're gonna open get it off to fairly good start nice pace. Talking about the next we'll get IRS getting a win over Mabel. When Mabel clubs to the middle rope, Iraq, shakes, the wrote Mabel falls into the ring, and I r s pins in holding the rope five minutes and thirty eight seconds. It is interesting. You know, Mabel, even here. Sorry IRS, even here in ninety four seems like a bit of dated gimmick, but Mabel is directly opposite of what you guys have been marketing with the new generation commercials in here. He's going to get wrapped to the ring by your, your best friend. Oscar Mabel going to do is best little dancing deal. There are all Reuss come all are Donovan has the line of the show. And I guess we should mention yes. During the show, and this is the most famous are Donovan quote, how much does this guy way? I think if six times in the show six times during this match. He says something in here. This is great acting, which is just tremendous. Half store Meltzer would say bad match. But no worse than you would expect. His observation his being arts observations. Like when I r s is coming to the ring. He says something like Randy. Is this one of the wrestlers, he looks like a businessman, and then he asked about mo- or Oscar, I who's the guy in the white suit? I don't know why, but then explains you know who it is thought, maybe he was the guy coming to take them to the hospital. Just fucking not great. The line of the, the show for me was macho men though in that first match with bam. Bam bigelow. He takes a low blow. And Randy says something like I gotta wonder if loon is gonna like bam much later or something like that. And our as lot, you may because he might get disqualified. Randy's like Alex planet to you later. Art Donovan was I fucking train wreck before the first bell rang. And it just got it was the gift that keeps on giving. So it was in. So therefore, see, that's the unexpected added entertainment value, that you got with this show. It was shady. It was added entertainment value. That, that no one expected. They thought, hey art Donovan, what the hell we gonna get we don't know. And then the got it. They said fuck what the hell? Hey, is this guy way? He looks like an accountant. So, at the IRS guy that just did my taxes. Yeah. He didn't even get that far. Yeah. It's something else man next kept on giving just like herpes. What did you think? Oh, that's a deep. Cut the Mabel finish here. He's like turtle like waiting on IRS jumping position. Maybe he was just a tad slow. No chemistry in this one at all. The I mean you can't blame that on returned to Ryan. This is all on Mabel. This was drizzly fucking shit. Yeah. It was so fucking bad. It was it was like Honey dripping over molasses. I don't know what that means. But cool, what you ever drip, Honey? And molasses together. No very fucking slow and. Not a lot to it. Well, there is something to Omaha and to talk us, the best match on the car up to this point. They're gonna go eight minutes and eighteen seconds should mention that to talk at this point has lost a max his in his first loss, talk go for a sunset flip heart isn't going to go over and just falls on him hoax. The legs gets the pin really pretty good match, but lots of near falls. And then the actual pin sort of coming out of nowhere. It was pretty good three three and a quarter stores is what Meltzer gave it best match the night so far. Yeah. Actually the beautiful thing about this match. It was solid. They beat the shit out of each other looked real. In everything. Well looked real cause was real. But it was they went out and look, come on. What they end to follow. Coming off of go to poor IRS and Mabel. And now you got to talking, oh, and heart oh and knows these goal over tonight. No one knows that he's here to shine and you know, fucking steal something and they went out there and they busted their ass. I thought it was thought it was a really good match. It's one of those that you can. At least watch and go okay, sh is good match. I like this next up one-two-three kid and Jeff Jarrett. They go about four and a half minutes. One-two-three kid gets the win with a small package say, it was all action bef- are too short. The real story, though afterwards after the match shift Jerry is furious that he lost with a small package like this, especially to the underdog one-two-three kid, and he gives them, not one not two, but three old school, Memphis style, Paul Travers, and then three Jerry Lawler, drops off the top rope that maybe he should let Jerry keep. Two and a quarter stars he's attacking referees after the fact this was flooding for me to watch, first of all, because you really get a whole new appreciation for how long Jeff Jarrett war, this, pseudo stripper gear, but everybody makes fun of and you can see how really uncomfortable. One-two-three kid was with, like fan interaction on his way to the crowd is not sure am I supposed to be the fiery baby. Face supposed to be smiling. I mean he's really excited to be there, but it looks like he becomes himself once the bell rings and they are just off to the races on joined the match and I enjoyed the post-match, but it was fun to see both of these guys very young performers sort of finding their way. Would you think? Well, first of all, Alexei, some Jeff Jarrett's gear to me. Still my favorite Jeff Jarrett gear these ever had because it was different. Look good. And, and it was different in made him. Stand. Out kid during this time he was still kind of fall, finding himself and getting out there and doing what he could do, but they did they had a good match short although may be, and then afterwards, Jeff Jarrett win spend my days were hard on the go, but hands on the clock kit moving to slow because he couldn't wait to be alone with this baby that nah, hang saw, folks. Well we're not mad at next. We've got our world title match, but I got a couple of promos one from Shawn Michaels and Kevin Nash, and then one from Bret Hart, and the promo with shine. This sort of fun because he says something like. Oh, and if I've got, you know, some bad fortune worth to befall upon Brent heart and something also wasn't going to happen to him. That would just be terrible. So that's kind of fun. It's planting the seeds for, you know, they have the intercontinental rivalry and then the one main event survivor series. And of course, we know that's going to continue. You can tell Kevin Nash, not totally comfortable doing promos. Just yet says he has one word for heart, Jack knife and got the continental title on one shoulder. And after tonight, he'll have the world title on the other, and then we go to Brown heart, and I even fit like Brett was a little uncomfortable doing promo, he's doing his best, and he's trying to be confident, but it almost I don't know now that we've just recently seen so much a breadth great stuff from nineteen ninety seven he still trying to figure it out here. And of course he saying that. Since Shawn Michaels was going to be on the outside for diesel. He's got somebody watching his back, but he won't give a hint. And of course, we know it's going to be Jim nine heart. They're gonna go twenty two and a half minutes. This is probably the longest match diesel has ever had. He works the match with a torn groin as well. And to think that this is the former Vinnie Vegas and is. I don't know how you can say this anything other than a good match. Got three and three quarter stars diesels gonna give Bret Hart the jack-knifed power bomb night, heart's gonna jump in the ring, and attacked him for the Hugh, and that leaves the story open ended since quote, we don't know if heart would have kicked out of the Jack knife, and nine heart then walks out, so the dressing room leaving heart who was then double teamed by Shawn Michaels and diesel until the officials brecca up and Meltzer would say, the announcers did a poor job of getting over the significance of nine heart leaving, and that we don't know of hark kicked out of the jack-knifed both of which appear to be angles built upon for the future. Would you think of the match? I mean, really a prom spot a world title match for diesel, of course, we know you know, he's going to he's the intercontinental champion going to become the tank champion and by the end of the year, a handful, a month after this. He's going to be Bob back on and be. The world champion. What did you think of the match and was there ever a consideration since, you know, so steroid trial, we need a monster with eight him to be clean? We need somebody who gets attention in the airport. These are sort of checks all the boxes wasn't discussed may be put it on him hear. Absolutely not the here's the thing about this match. And this, this was pivotal and so many ways because. We did see something in diesel. And I think that diesel. Got a bad rep during a lot of this shit because these wasn't a great worker that time any he'd never been pushed she'd never been in any kind of situation like like this for damn Shire's special in this kind of a high profile match. However, he had been around Sean had been around bread. He'd been around these guys, and he was getting better, and he had a look in there was a ground swell around him, ma'am. People are like wanting him to do more wanting to see more wanting to. Want him tested? You take this match in thence. The monster diesel and thinking shit, man. What the hell can we do with this guy? And that allure of the audience going make me the big guy. What's, what's he gonna do while making still because we're still in a building process with Brett? And you're still getting bread app there to be the, the, the new generation, if you will. So. It's that catch twenty two to me, it was the coming out party, maybe the rumble before that was coming out party for diesel, but this was diesels coming out party in a single encounter in the spotlight. It was also to me that defining moment where you went, holy fuck who who can't Brett work with. And Brett was able to go out and put together a match. With seven foot monster with a pulled groin even without the pulled groin limited in his skills that point his career and make it all believable and have a hell of a match it make everybody involved in that match. Have an important role in carry it out to the best of their abilities. And I'm not. Let's say ninety percent of that goes to Brett, but a great deal that goes to diesel because he hung he Hong and he was able to go in there and love it. When they say all he looked blowed up, or he looked out of place. He was suppose to look that way. That was the story of the match this big bastard. He's never been tested to this limit. So when you hear the experts, I he's blowed up he can't go. That's a story. You're telling a story of a big guy, the maybe doesn't have that wind capacity in that cardio that the smaller more agile athlete has. So that smaller agile athletes going to wear him down to do that. It's called a work, folks. And I think that both guys played that so fucking well in the way that diesel was able to hang in make it believable Brett being the smaller guy. When you look at it on paper, go Brett should be killed. But he was able to get through every single thing and made diesel a bigger monster all along the way with everything that he did in that to me was just I enjoyed the hell out of the match, and I remember thinking, well, it's Brett, but I think if we could program diesel with the right guys that man. They're going to believe in this big bastard, because he will as, as believable, he looks apart and on that night, he proved that he could work the part two. Any concern with him, working with a torn growing. He's not going to be able to go. Yeah. What was concern but he felt that he could. And you know you had the compression, shorts and all that other shit. It wasn't bad enough that he wasn't. In it wasn't in a place where he couldn't go. So that was never an issue. But it was how much is it going to happen him, how much is it going to happen? The performance at this point. Advance already know we're going to make him champs in a rather than later, it was just a matter of trying to test him and say, we're what had want to test and see what we had, we didn't know whether or not he could hold up in that single environment. And he did. And this was the point where we kind of went. You know what down the road. He could be it. So let's keep it moving here. Jim neidhart returning. How does that come about? It be Bassett. Is the bulls Jedi the looking for Ponant for bread. Yeah, they, they tear down. Be being you know, they, they were the foundation of the hearts and the what a match that would be you gotta own put in widow and put a big bastard. And it kinda fell in and we really didn't know what the fuck do gym at that point. So just leave it with question marks figure it out later. Yeah. You know you put it out there. He kept Brett from losing the title, right? You had the open ended, Weiji leave me and then look, I wasn't there, too. Fight for you after the fact I was there to make she kept the championship. So there were a lot of different stories. We didn't know what we had in gym at the time it was another who's another in. He could did big rhino. It's you know, Yuma chance and and Vinci's softy. Well, next not razor Ramon. It's a win over IRS with the razor's edge, pretty uneventful match five minutes. Thirteen seconds. Three quarters of star Meltzer would say they didn't even really attempt. A good matches just sort of there, and it's really hard to follow a long world title match like what we've just had. So it's probably a ban Spahn for any match the match after that, though is Owen Hart. You know what I'm gonna tell you something. You know why was put there. Because we thought that if the Brett in the Brenton diesel match didn't deliver, this would. In a work the opposite way. So are you adjusting times on the flaw? Always just times on the flies. Yeah. So my question is, like, you know, remember 'cause you probably don't have your book in front of me. But originally was was diesel slotted for ten minutes. And I know some people are hearing that saying what the fuck was manner. Well diesel has never been in these deep waters before Vince, isn't here. We've got a lot of turn of matches going on. And by the way, the guy who's on proven in this match also has a torn growing. So, yeah, I in my head. You probably send bread out there and say something like I'm free styling, failed out if it's going well, do the whole deal. But if he's hurting and, and it's, it's a cluster, just go home. I got back up. Yeah. Is that basically the pitch? Yes. And because it was we had. No. And I knew that if it if it stunk join out did have confidence razor. Nyeri esq. Pick it back up. And here's what socks the match after razor Ramon. IRS is probably one of those matches that has the time cut because oh and heart and one-two-three hit only three minutes and thirty seven seconds. Own wins with sharp shooter. Meltzer would say while this was far and away the best, three minutes and thirty seven seconds of the show from storyline standpoint, this match made no sense. I off the business of a baby face being injured earlier in the car teasing. He can't come back then miraculously coming back has been done to death over the last year on WF paper view shows to the point that the unexpected has become very xpected second after taking such a horrendous beating from Jarrett kid didn't even sell the idea that he was injured as he did every hospital. He could fit into three minutes and thirty seven seconds in this match. If the angle was going to be ignored later in the show. Why do it third of all if they're going to work a hot competitive match and use this matches the showpiece of the new generation theme they attempted to do while limited to just three minutes and thirty seven seconds? When the could have had a classic if they were given more time, it's not like this show was loaded with great wrestlers and potential. Matches. Some good matches had to be shortchanged on time. Let's face it when it was over. This was really a three man card of Owen brat and kid. He loved the match. But he felt like it was way too short and I do recommend that everybody. Go watch it. It's only three minutes and thirty seven seconds. But it's probably one of the better matches you'll see this week three and a quarter stars. And he says this was about as good of short matches you'll ever see what did you think? And what do you think of his criticisms? Well, it's criticisms are fucked up because he doesn't know the story we were telling and the match was great. It was. Excellent. They had tremendous chemistry. But the idea was to get to the own heart razor match later on in the night, and well, hang on. Now, if you've got Jeff Jarrett, delivering three Paul drivers, and then kid doesn't sell it. Kids should have sold. It. Kid definitely shows all that. And, and that would have helped a whole hell of lot more. But is said they went out and just did their shit and had a had a great match, and it was a great match story wise. Not exactly the right story at the time because where we were getting to Owen going through kid quickly the own little bit arrest. Get to the race or match later on where oh and finally comes victorious, and becomes king. Hearts. The tag mass. Here's the head showing head triggers or tainting the tag titles, over yokozuna and crush, and what a fucking hodgepodge tank team that feels like non minutes. Thirty one seconds and lex Luger distraction causes cross to append finish that Ray Charles could see coming that according to the wrestling observer. The also says Donovan came out with another line of the year here when he saw you, who, you know, for the first time guerrilla that man's legs or as big as most Benz thaws, which is kind of fun. So the, the payback is. Lugar lost his match because crush distracted him in the tournament here. So now Luger is repaying that about distracting crush from his chance to win the tag, ten tag titles star and a half sort of just sort of air for me on this one. Would you think? It was there for you. Well, I mean, listen, we pay full man, it's just, you know, and I know you're gonna get mad when I say this, but these guys got non minutes and thirty one seconds and kid. No. And gif three thirty seven. What the fuck flip-flop? It. Okay. No, because the, the idea of the kid match was forced to be short for Owen in this one was six minutes. Thirty one seconds of entrance is just getting fucking yokozuna to the ring. This was horrible. This was just choosing fucking. She hits. It's great to let me run through the list against got crush yokozuna and head drinkers and the crowd starts chaining. USA. So I guess they're cheering for the head, shrink, because they're not change for you. Because I don't know when when Yoko crush come out arts says something like oh, how much does this guy way, I was Oona this Zona, and then later, he's talking about the heads drinkers, who were these guys, these guys from the Pacific islands or what? And then when lex Luger, one of the biggest stars on the entire promotion, who was figured in, and main events for the last year comes out in his red white and blue pants. Art says who's the fellow with the American flag? Is Vince dying thousand deaths. He's fresh off. Neck surgery is got federal charges. People are suing them out the ass. He's laid up the show's not live for shit, and this guy this fucking. It this point in the show. That was kind of the reaction that I was getting from vents. God, damn this is the shits. And. Yeah. And then I just left the office, I wouldn't take phone calls anymore. I knew I was getting one at the end of the night, just take your ass you all once. And I was I knew it was a horrible show and I didn't need. All that much more reinforcement that it was a horrible show. We all knew or will show. We're just trying to get the fuck through it. And pats walking around was fucking papers as back pocket pencil behind the air and is I. Yeah. Listen. Yeah. I serious this point. This was I think the last time that I smoked events until the end of the NY where awesome man, I've gotta go. And, you know, the last two matches I've got a focus on and. And he just laughed. Oh, it's better than what it's been damn. What'd you think Yoko in crush attack team? Bad way agree. Thank you. It's just fucking bad. Heads rectors. Big managed by captain Lou. How's that pairing come today? Okay. Yeah. I think that was events rib on me because Alabana oh, would come to TV's and shit. And Lou would always go over and talk vents and Vinnie Vinnie. I got an idea about I do this. I'm attacked him manager attack team champions. I do this and I'll take your next check Jack team champions day. Many Vinnie, let me do this. Let me do this. Well, then go out on commentary, and he'd send Lou to me. Bruce talk to Vinnie Vinnie said, I could do this. Many our Lou then seining to me, man. Limited sue do tomorrow. We'll see do. So when we. Rawle live and shit. He started doing this shit to me. We were in. Fuck thankless poughkeepsie and Lou had been in the back and Lou Vincent been driving me nuts. All fucking day and Lewis had been driving me nuts, all fucking day. So I heard vents tell Lou. Just talked Bruce, Bruce will find a spot in the show for you. So you wanna play ha the fucker. And they were out doing commentary, and I believe it was the head, shrink or match some like that. And look comes up to me at gorilla in the middle of a live show, as Brosse, baby bro, say, baby, what are we going to Vinnie said, you got some for me? I said, yes. Go down and do commentary with this. That's when right now just go to the rang pick up a headset just start doing color with him. He fucking goes out the curtain went down set down to commentary with this, and I was way down Vince Bros. What's going on? So lose gonna commentary with you this match. Silence. Lucette down commentary afterwards because don't ever fuck and do that to me again. Also, don't ever stop sending them to me. And I won't. But yeah. That was kinda remedy that yeah. It's talk to Bruce voyage. Okay. I got some forty good commentary with it. Hear that? That all that next up Owen Hart razor. Ramon it's Bruce called the main event. Six minutes thirty five seconds oh, and of course pins razor becomes the king of the ring tournament champion. Meltzer would say this batch wasn't bad. But again, those two short considering the purpose that this was an impact match that theoretically, these guys are good enough. And they did a lot of good wrestling early and traded near falls heart one for a moon salt. But Ramon got up and gave him a backward suplex and then went for the razor's edge, but heart flipped. Ramon over the top rope. Nine heart comes out and closed on post for Mon those back in the ring or heart scores the pin after an elbow drop both men attack. Ramon after the match as fans chant for breath to a run in but instead Brett just does an interview, and then there's the coronation ceremony for Owen Hart. Who's now going to change his nickname from the rocket to the king of hearts? So now, the, the truth has been revealed Jim nine heart while he saved the title for Brett, he's not actually on Brent side of this family feud, he's with Owen. And now Owens finding himself in the middle of this push, where he had the, the big win at the last pay per view over Bret Hart. Remember that was wrestlemainia in the most recent pay-per-view, but the show goes off the air where even though Owen beat brat Brett's on everyone's shoulders as the champion and now fast forward to the next paper view and another family member doesn't side with brenten stats odds with I wouldn't Owen wins the king of the ring which his brother Brent had the year before. So great story really love where we're headed. We know we've got summer slam for the world title in the cage might sort of circled as where we're gonna wind up. Is this the at this point, this has gotta be everything Owen Hart has been waiting for his entire career is not? Well, yeah. For the Bush. I mean, it was something that along gated when a lot of people never thought would happen getting more than one or two match. Out of Brenton. Oh and because you had the victory and Russell mania you come back with the rematch is the heart attack tour after that will now oh, and his following, in birth brats, footsteps by becoming king of the ring. His next step is the WWE championship now. So it was a logical progression. It added fuel to the fire, you had nine heart in there, who was neither fish nor fowl. We started out and we even carried it on a little bit, you know, as night heart Fisher foul. Yes, he helped Owen more, but he did help Brett too. It was. It was that building of Owen Hart, that was another example of the way that Owen would take whatever he was given. Small or large as it may be and make it ten times bigger. Because when he became king hearts. I mean, he did changes gear change dollars shit embraced it, and made it more than a lot of people ever imagined it could ever be so, yeah. Fucking. Oh man. To me. Just so great in this was another one of those examples of gave him an inch, and he took two miles, really, really good stuff. The coronation ceremony a little silly. But I mean it's cool because it's Owen? And you know what this means to one of the guys who? You know, really deserves it. One of the good guys wrestling, one of the things I wanted to mention to you here is Todd pet and goes over to interview the governor and he's trying to we had all the stars. They're fucking Conrad, we go, so he's got the governor of Maryland there and he's trying to ask. Hey, man need to make a pick here? Who'd he got Jerry Lawler, or Roddy piper and the governor picks piper? But says really a more of a whole Cogan fan myself. God damn Todd pet and Gail looks like he's going to have a sheer panic attack pulls the Mike and the interviews over. Just when he thought this shit couldn't get any more sideways and your phone's, not lighten up enough in the back. Yeah. I didn't want to mention though the you see a lot of promos on the WB network because it's the Coliseum video release. So there's lots of backstage stuff like Jim Cornell and even one in here with Roddy piper and bipolar is in his dressing room. And he's showing you what's in his bag and he's bragging, this Hershey's bar is what real champions, eat shit like that. And he looks like a million dollars. I don't know. He's fresh off of a movie set the vignettes that were building this, you know, were of him in his movie trailer where he's got, like a five o'clock shadow and outside of his movie trailer one night and. He is in the best shape. Roddy piper was ever in at forty years old has he not? Yeah. Piper was written, and he was working his ass off and down and just changing his look up and trying some different shit. You know, us in that acting world wanting to funny, they tell you. You got a trimmed down. You gotta get smaller and all that stuff. And that's Roddy was doing, and he was working hard to attain that it just I don't know that it was his best look because he looked skinny well. He looks more like an athlete here than ever before. I mean he was in phenomenal shape here, not as not as muscular. I'm not saying that not a swollen as they like to say, but certainly as lean as you've ever seen him and the story line here is you guys happen to cross a Roddy piper impersonator. And when we go back several weeks on raw, there's a king's court and he's going to promise Roddy piper. And Jerry Lawler delivers this impersonator who comes out and kisses, lawler's feet and is doing an incredible impression of Roddy. Piper dress, just like him, but skinny as a Royal, I mean, the kid weighs ninety pounds tops and now for the main event here that kids actually going to walk to the ring with piper, a amongst, the great bagpipe entrance. Well, he tell us about the way you found this kid and what it was like, working with him man. He had sent in some tape a believe the Senate in the tape, the piper and Lawler, saw said God, this would be great Lawler, used in for his stuff and that with awe. You know, the great swerve at the end is Lawler thinks he has this kidneys corner to get under the skin Roddy piper, 'cause Roddy really wasn't fond of piper impersonators? So it was just little sort of bring guy in let him be rotties corner. Jim a little bit of a spotlight. He did a good piper impersonation, and it was a lot of fun and Roddy embraced it. And we're just trying to add anything that we could to this match. We didn't have we didn't have Roddy to make a lot of the dates leading up to this match. So you couldn't get that physical. Interaction between piper Lawler, it was all verbal, and with, if there were ever any two guys to house Roddy piper, Jerry Lawler, but, but he really gave his you enough to, to want to see it. Unfortunately, in Roddy was doing. He was sending us these tapes that he was shooting himself with his little camcorder, and they would be twenty minutes long. And you'd have to edit them down to get a promo out of him. So it was, it was a challenge in promotion, at best, and I had, I kinda stuck my neck out on the line with Roddy and really wanted to do something with him. This was his door back in at the time after we've done the wrestlemainia thing, and he still got some more matches left in me, and so on and so forth. And. Roddy piper? Come on. Yeah. I mean everything out good. Meltzer would say mainly Lawler kept chasing the kid and piper kept stopping him after below-par brawling. Little wrestling came the ref bump Lawler pulled out of four an object and hid piper and tried to pin him with his feet on the ropes. But the kid through lawler's feet off the robes Lawler, goes after the kid piper gets him for behind with a sloppy bridging back suplex that was the idea. Although the reality was something different for the pin one-star, and they get like twelve and a half minutes for this one. Yeah, not the best main event. What did you think is this, this the last time we see piper in the company, I guess, for more than a year? He pops back up and ninety five and we know he's gonna fill in for razor. Ramon at wrestlemania twelve and ninety six but he's in and out. As a result of this match is Parker wanna take a break. Is this all you had contract for does Vince I boy, that's enough of that shit for a little while. Why is this the end for a little bit? Everybody wanted to take a break. I don't Lawler didn't want any more of it. You know what you, you look back at it and you watch it. And you're in there. If you have any feeling at all you realize this, this is not working. They did not have chemistry in the ring. Unfortunately, I don't even know they really had good chemistry on the microphone. Because Lawlor Lawler needs that Paul's Lawler needs needs that moment for that comeback and Roddy doesn't always give that to you. And in rotties comebacks are too quick, sometimes. And, and then he leaves, you know, where to go Lawler will feed you? Gives someplace to go, but he he needs he needs a second. I just think they're timing on everything didn't work, and it was, it was a failed experiment. It didn't didn't get over. And when it was over we thankful it was over. Thence laughed his ass off. And I don't think that he thought it was one of the best shows we ever had. Thank Pat ni- for running and doing everything we could. And you, you know, after the show, you can then go back during the show is not the time to. Express your frustrations or to San okay? Had this to deal with read that to do. It doesn't matter. Then matter what the fuck you had to deal with deal with that you job. So wanting to sit there and say, well, sorry I've been in a room with hot rod for fucking hour. And I, I didn't get to do that. No, sir. Got say is no didn't get do that fucked up. Sorry. But I gotta go do something else right now. And you go on and you do it. After the fact. I gotta share some of that with him, which made him laugh even more. But it's a learning experience and, and. If you learned from ever stay. Hopefully you're not going to repeat a lot of them. Sometimes you do just because you think well, I'll go compensate here. It just was. It was tough. In it was without having vents, who was in this always kind of that rudder in the water. You. You think you can do it. And I do believe we can do. And we have done it without him in men, fine. So it's the first time for me and Pat doing it without him. And maybe we were a little overconfident. Maybe we took a lot for granted. But for me, probably one of the worst pay per views of ever of all. It was painful, man. It was it was really painful. Well, and I know this was paying for for you today. I guess we should tell everybody you flew home for the emergency oral surgery, and your nightmare continued. As it was one complication after another. You had the surgery first thing cracking on Wednesday morning. More complications Thursday. Got way worse on Friday, Saturday, a whole new percent of problems. And then, of course, Monday, another set you, you didn't get to make the pay per view or TV for WWE, but he sucked it up. And you made for something to wrestle fan base, and we preach it you taking the time to do it. And hopefully you can take another pain pill taking nap and we're gonna try to bring you gossip more. Great content this Friday at noon. Tell your friends something wrestle is back with some brand new content, and thanks, Tony shivani for filling in the gaps last week, I want to thank Tony man for separate in helping out on that. I wanna thank you. Everybody for the well wishes. I have no idea at all. What transpired in my life, last Wednesday and third recollection have, we'll give you this one piece of advice if you ever go into the dentist, and you leave your wife out in the waiting room, and they get in, and they pull six-year fucking teeth. Don't ever let her make that last decision about doing the last thing drill up into your jaw and. Take out all the rest of us. You know she made a good decision. I'm sure in the long run. But holy fuck. I asked the guy before I went in the week before. When I scheduled the surgery, everything dropped on me and I was in a bad way how long have I gonna be down? He says, oh, one day you're in you're out, you'll be at work the next day. I guess we should mention a lot of this has complication from when Brock listener destroys, your fucking face backstage, and Humpty Dumpty, put you back together again. So when you talk about having to have teeth pool people just say, oh, this raggedy motherfucker, don't brush his teeth. No your palate. Collapsed, your entire the inside of your mouth fell, and it's now on your tongue and you're holding it up like an asshole trying to make TV. And then eventually, they get the fuck outta here and go get the fixed. And so here we are, and I know last week, you know, you know, people going to say, people are going to say, oh, they don't care about the show anymore that he doesn't have a fucking mouth. Not something we can do. So thanks for Tony for running his mouth. And although the live shows with Bruce, obviously have to take a high this, because of his w travel, somehow Jim Ross has found a way to schedule a live show with may actually to, we've got them coming up, and I want to go ahead and let everybody know about those Jacksonville, Florida on July twelfth will be our very first grill, JR live, and you can join us at grill, JR lob dot com, and that is the night before AWS five for the fallen. So if you're going to be in town for that show, you might as well, go ahead and check out Jim now the night before, right there in Jacksonville tickets or just thirty nine bucks. And it's grilling JR live dot com. Now, maybe you're more of a WWE fan. Well, good news for you Philadelphia. We're coming to see you on July fourteenth right before WBZ, puts on their pay per view, extreme rules. We're going to be at Dave and Buster's, tickets are only thirty nine bucks Philly, come see us at Jim. Conrad dot com. That's jim. And Conrad dot com, it's the day of the pay per view. We're going to get started at three we'll be done by five plenty of time for you to make it over the dark matches and everything that's happening and extreme rules. So check us out July twelth grilling JR lob dot com. Jacksonville, Florida, July fourteenth Philadelphia PA, Jim and Conrad dot com right before extreme rules. So whether in AWS fan or w e fan, you're certainly a Jim Ross fan and you gotta go see grilling JR lob dot com or Jimmy. Well, we don't have a fucking live show to promote. But if you want to hey, watch raw and smackdown. Bruce helps work on those now he'll be extreme rules. I'll attempt to get together with him. And he'll say on too, busy, I'm just too busy. And that's anything else. Lots of stuff. Lots of stuff coming down the pike. We're gonna have some fun and just happy. I'm happy to talk to you again. Conrad if feels like about fuck in eighteen years since we've got just sit down and bullshit. And talk, and this was nice because all we gotta do sit down and bullshit. And talk, and I like that bullshitting talking as what our friendship is based upon and our friendship and relationship with the audience. So thank you for bullshitting and talking with us this week. And I know we drop this on, you know, with really no advanced warning sort of out of the blue. But this is what we promise last Friday. We couldn't deliver it. So we're delivered to you today, and we did it add for you. With exceptional me plugging Jim roles at the end. So stay back in and drop in some ads. We don't Bruce, we're done. That's it. That's the end of the show, and we appreciate you guys support here. Follow us on social media. I am. Hey, it's Conrad, he is at brisk. Richard our show is that Pritchard show and Bruce the end of the show. You know what to do? Shuck. Akam.

Vince McMahon Chuck Austen Japan Japan wrestling meltzer Shawn Michaels WWF Howard Finkel Howard Finkel WCW Magic Johnson Jerry mcdevitt mister Dudley John CENA Steiner Texas Randy Savage Jerry New York
WWE vs WCW - Bulking Up | 2

Business Wars

30:33 min | 1 year ago

WWE vs WCW - Bulking Up | 2

"In its March Nineteen Ninety and Dr George the Horrigan his treating one of his regular patients in his Harrisburg Pennsylvania office like many visitors to doctors a Hawaiian. This patient is a wrestler. Four hundred hundred pounds of steroid inflated muscle. The wrestler looks at the Chubby bespectacled doctor and pleads for help duck. I'm about to go on tour in Europe for weeks. I'm going to need a load of steroids and painkillers to get through doctors. A hoary nods understanding Lii in nineteen seventy seven the Pennsylvania Athletic Commission made him the house doctor a WWF weekly TV shoots in Allentown. He's been playing Dr feelgood good to the wrestling community ever since even though the WWF kicked him out in nineteen eighty nine. He's still the go to guy for wrestlers in need of affixed doctors are Horrigan unlocks his medicine cabinet and pulls out box after box of medication okay. I'll help nope but only because I trust. You'll be careful out there. A. Here the FBI's watching wrestling very closely doctors are hoary in Hanover more than two thousand thousand pills including Halcion Xanax Vicodin and more boxes of Syringes Vials of testosterone twenty ninety five thousand dollars a performance enhancing drugs and painkillers enough to last a lifetime. Thanks Doc. This should keep me going doing just seconds after the wrestler leaves. FBI Agent Storm into doctors a hoary reception area doctors are Hari and please stand aside. We we have a warrant to search the premises. The color drains from the doctor's face. His heart is pounding. He stashed his wrestling patients records off-site but he's still got receipts for steroid shipments in his office. Oh Oh my may I call my attorney before you begin the agents not in doctors a Hawaiian rushes into his office but instead of picking up his phone he opens the filing cabinet hands shaking Geico he rummages through the files and pulls out a handful of Fedex receipts he glances at the half open door to make sure he's out of sight and starts tearing up the documents the F. B. I. agents here the noise and I into the room doctors a hurry in stop what you're doing immediately. You're under arrest. The doctor freezes is is torn pieces of paper flutter from his hands onto the floor. The doctor is marched out of the building and into the parking lot from across the way he sees the wrestler. He just left his office removing a wire. F- from under his shirt as doctors a Hawaiian is driven away back in his office. FBI agents or already piecing the torn documents back together their receipts for illegal steroid shipments to two familiar oh your name's wwf wrestling stars Lord Alfred Hayes and Rowdy Roddy Piper. It's a brand new lead in their investigation it points directly to the WWE APPS front door. Hm Shipping and mailing from your desk has never been simpler than with Centro online from Pitney bowes with central online from Pitney Bose is just click sent and save for his lowest four ninety nine. That's four dollars and ninety nine cents. A month sent envelopes flats and packages right from your desk and you are back to business in no time and for being a business wars listener you'll receive a free thirty day trial to get started and a free ten pounds scale to ensure that you never overpay starting at four ninety nine per month. You can also qualify for special. USPS rates for letters and priority mail shipping calculate exact postage online and print postage right there from your pc save time and money on mailing and shipping with WPRO online go to PB DOT COM slash vw to access this special offer for a free thirty day trial plus a free ten pounds scale to get started. That's PB DOT com slash. BWI W experienced shipping made simple with a free trial of Centro online from Pitney Bowes from wondering I'm David Brown. This is business works on the last episode. Vince McMahon took charge of the WWF and crushed the wrestling sling old guard and cable TV mogul Ted Turner bought the floundering WCW promotion but now scandal is threatening man's wrestling empire. Could this be just the break. Turner needs to take him on this is episode to bulking up. It's June nineteen ninety-one and WWF headquarters in Stamford Connecticut Vince McMahon Stares in horror at USA Today's front page. The headline reads hope both from a bottle Dr George the Horan's trial for illegally dispensing steroids to wrestlers starts tomorrow since his arrest fifteen months ago the identities of the WWF stars he supplied haven't become public but now the secret's out breath. McMahon knows these revelations could destroy Hulk Hogan's wholesome image and threatened WWF's reputation as a family show McMahon needs to neutralize this scandal fast he grabs his phone punches in the number for WWF chief attorney. Jerry McDevitt a few hours later in Harrisburg Pennsylvania McDevitt steps into the office of the federal judge overseeing doctors a hoariest trial trial. Thank you for seeing me at short notice. Judge my client the WWF is very concerned about the prosecution's decision to call Hulk Hogan as a witness the judge piers at McDevitt over his thin rimmed glasses. Let me guess you're going to ask me not to compel Hogan to to testify on what grounds the federal attorneys do not need Hogan to make their case. He's only listed in the doctor's fed ex logs six times. That's less than the other wrestlers called a court also the logs that include him predate. The steroids restrictions that this case depends on. I I still don't hear why he shouldn't be testifying. McDevitt leans forward Hulk Hogan is the most famous wrestler in the world world. Your honor and critical to my clients business. If Hogan is put on the witness stand it'll create a media circus that will do untold damage to. WWF's reputation station and you're under the WWF is not on trial here. The judge presses palms together okay Mr McDevitt. I accept your argument. I won't require Hogan to testify the WWF quickly issues a media statement emphasizing how Hogan isn't accused of wrongdoing and won't be taking the stand but it doesn't quell the media storm when doctors a hoary and is found guilty two days later the papers are full of stories about the WWF wrestlers who used steroids to build their massive passive mussels McMahon ramps up the damage control. It's July nineteen ninety-one and the WWF is holding a press conference in the tastefully decorated terrace room of the Plaza Hotel in Manhattan dressed in a grey suit and green tie the six-foot-three McMahon addresses reporters at the WWF. We take the issue of steroids extremely seriously that's why today we are announcing a new drug testing regime for all aw WWF wrestlers a reporter raises his hand messed him McMahon. You look like you work out. Have you used steroids. McMahon decides honesty's the best policy. I did use a steroid. I got from Doctors Ahora in about four years ago but I used it only once as the scandal rumbles on. WWF's popularity takes a beating viewers and advertisers desert. It's TV shows you pay per view buys and ticket sales for live events tumble. The only comfort and it's cold comfort is that Ted Turner's World Championship Championship wrestling is failing to capitalize on. WWF woes since the nineteen eighty Turner Buyout WCW boss. Jim Heard just can't seem to catch a break the former pizza hut regional managers try gimmick after Gimmick to get people watching. He's lit up. WCW's TV shows with indoor fireworks. He's introduced a wrestling duo call the Ding dongs who wear bright orange SPANDEX bodysuits covered in tiny bells. He's even sent a a movie star law enforcer into the ring in the WCW's also plagued with infighting heard has fallen out with his chief booker who writes the scripts for each wrestling match and his top wrestler Ric flair over the WCW direction and now heard and flares disagreements are about to explode it's August nineteen ninety-one and flares in herds private office in WCW's headquarters in Atlanta the forty two year old wrestlers contract is up for renewal and and he's expecting a big pay hike after all he's WCW's biggest star and its current champion. Flair runs his hand through his wavy blond shoulder length hair POPs the question okay Jim. What are you offering me to stay heard frowns rick. We're we're losing money and the ratings are down. My offer is three hundred and fifty thousand dollars. A year for two years. Flare leaps to his feet in anger. You are not cutting my pay in half Einder champion. I'm on your star wrestler. You cut someone. Else's pay heard crosses his arms. If you were as good as you think you are a ratings eatings wouldn't be down. You can take the deal or you can cough flare clamps his fists on his hips. Give me back the twenty five five thousand dollar security deposit. I put down the championship belt plus interest and I'm gone heard sneers. You and the bell flare explodes. It's not me it's you unless you return my deposit. It's my belt with that layer stumps out of her office half an hour later. Vince McMahon gets a call thence. It's it's Ric flair. I want Outta. WCW If you want me outcome wwf this is music to McMahon's man's ears Rick Wreck of course. I want you fantastic something else to oh yeah. I've still got the WCW championship belt. They will give me my deposit so I'm keeping it. I could bring it with me. If you like a mighty grin breaks across McMahon's face he knows exactly what to do with that. Big Gold Belt. It's Monday September Ninth Nineteen Ninety one and then is Atlanta home. Gym heard sits in front of the TV beer in hand. He's watching prime time wrestling. WWF's flagship show on the USA network tonight is a big night for the show because Rick Flares cares about to make his WWF debut keen to see what the competition's going to do with his former champion just moments after the show starts arts herds jaw drops off crap on the screen a WWF commentator tator is hyping up flares imminent arrival and in his hands. The commentator is brandishing flare solid gold. WCW Belt Bird's not just lost WCW biggest star. He's also let the belt WCW tout's is the most prestigious prize in wrestling become a prop crop on their rivals TV show and it's my pleasure to introduce you got it the real world champion the following morning heard is fired. It's June nineteen ninety two and in the center stage H. Theater in Atlanta. WCW's wrestlers are meeting their new boss. He's a thickset former wrestler called Cowboy Bill Watts and of course he wears a Stetson. The wrestler study Watts Torso. They've heard he always carries a gun. They're wondering if if he's packing heat right now they've also heard a rumor that he urinated in the CNN parking lot but what's isn't here to clarify rumours instead. He's come to give. WCW Big kick in the ass with his snakeskin boots. There ain't no way to sugarcoat this. Here's the truth. WCW SEE W is a shambles since turnabout you pissed away nineteen million dollars to wrestlers glance city each other did watch just break wind he did but he's not breaking his diatribe the TV shows you've been filming here an embarrassment limit all these bright lights looks like your wrestling and a shopping mall so we're going to fix things and we're fixing the my way. I don't want any bullcrap. Oh crap for many of y'all for the next hour watch lays down the law he wants to rewind the clock take wrestling back to the days before the WWF WF started putting wrestlers and Polka dots and other outlandish costumes. I want real wrassling namby-pamby dance routines. No More Matt's outside the ring that looks fake. No more lewd hand gestures. Neither no more acrobatic leaps off the ropes. Come out. I want blood. I won't Violence Spontaneity Gimme that we're going to win. Big Watts is settling in. WCW The W. W. F. is in turmoil since the steroids scandal erupted the bad news hasn't stopped coming Hulk Hogan's taking a break from the ring to focus on acting reading McMahon's also fallen out with the ultimate warrior face painted rest or he hoped would be wwf next superstar on top of that to WWF WWF staffers have been fired after claims that they've been using their position to sexually exploit young men who wanted to get into the wrestling business there there are also to potentially crippling lawsuits pending one from a rookie wrestler left semi-paralyzed effort match the other from a former a commentator demanding hundreds of thousands of dollars in unpaid royalties and it's all hammering the ratings of WWF TV shows including prime time wrestling. It's October nineteen ninety-two and Vince McMahon is top lieutenants are meeting in WWF's headquarters in Stamford Connecticut for months. They've been trying without success to revive. Primetime wrestling's ratings now. McMahon wants to start over. Let's forget about overhauling prime time wrestling come on. It's time to create a new showed replace it. I want something more in in your face one executive riffs on McMahon's idea. Why don't we take the fights out of the arenas and back into small intimate venues news put put the audience ringside and have the wrestlers doing their skits right there instead of taping them separately. It would feel like it's live to the viewers at home. Dick Glove Vice President of business operations picks up the baton. Yeah we put mics in the ring so the viewers here every grunt and crash on the Mat. It'll feel unscripted likes something uncooked raw McMahon points at glove Rau-. I liked that sounds dangerous. That should be the name of the show in January nineteen ninety-three Monday night raw debuts. I and it's like nothing wrestling fans have ever seen before with its small venues live by up close over the top action. Raw is a world away from the orchestrated atmosphere of most wrestling. TV shoots reaction is huge draws. I episode attracts more than two million views to the shows drawn people back to WWF. Raw Success is a bitter Peter Blow for WCW's boss Watts. He thought Gimmick free back to basics. Wrestling would work wonders instead viewers are choosing the WWF energetic energetic and crazy action over his dimly lit TV shows but the cowboy has bigger trouble on the way and that's because his passed. I is about to catch up with him. Hiring can be a slow process. Nobody knows that better than cafe tourists. CEO Dylan Moskowitz when he needed to hire a director of coffee for his organic coffee company he was having a lot of trouble finding finding qualified applicants so he switched Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. It's technology identifies fantasize people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job so you get qualified candidates fast. Dylan posted his job on Ziprecruiter and said he was impressed impressed by how quickly he had great candidates apply. He also used Ziprecruiter's candidate rating feature to filter his applicants that way he can focus on the most relevant ones and that is how Dylan found his new director of coffee in just a few days with results like that. It's little wonder four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter it or get a quality candidate within the first day. CHECK OUT WHY ZIPRECRUITER is effective for businesses of all sizes trust ziprecruiter for free at ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM Tom Slash. VW THAT'S ZIPRECRUITER DOT COM slash VW ziprecruiter dot com slash VW Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire business wars is sponsored by audible audible has the world's largest selection of audio books and audio entertainment including audible originals audible originals are stories created exclusively for audio including documentaries exclusive audiobooks and scripted shows that you can't hear anywhere else that's right now. I'm listening to an audible original called it burns the scandal plagued race to breed the world's hottest Chili. Sometimes you just need to hear a story that completely jolts you out of your own head and this one is really doing that for me. It's wild. It's funny. It's about so much more than Chili's with a convenient audible APP. You can listen listen anytime anywhere and on any device Mobile Alexa Enabled Bluetooth and more as a member you can easily exchange any title you don't love at anytime plus plus. You get to keep your library of listens. Even if you cancel start listening with a thirty day audible trial choose one audiobook and to audible originals absolutely absolutely free visit audible dot com slash. BWI or text B W two five hundred five hundred that's audible dot com slash vw or text vw to five hundred five hundred uh it's February nineteen ninety-three and in CNN center in Atlanta WCW executive producer cowboy bill watts lots is riding up the elevator. Turner Broadcasting's executive suite he exits the elevator strides down the quarters of the buildings fourteenth fourteenth floor and enters the Office of Bill Shaw. Shaw is the senior executive at Turner Broadcasting who oversees WCW and he's not happy as what's takes. His seat shop pushes a sheet of paper across the desk him. You want to explain this breath. Watts picks up the sheet of paper. It's a faxed copy of an interview he did for a wrestling newsletter in Nineteen ninety-one. A paragraph is marked with yellow highlighter the part where watts defends in nineteen sixties restaurant owner who opted to shut down his Atlanta eatery rather than comply with a court order to serve African Americans well. I don't deny that I said that but anyone who thinks I'm a big is an idiot. I believe in freedom. He should have the freedom to discriminate. Shaw glares. What's the cowboy gets gets the message. You know what I'm done with this. Damn business. I'm out its May nineteen ninety-three and and there's a new face in Shaw's office guy who resembles a bulked up Ken doll he's Eric Bischoff and he wants to fill the cowboys now empty boots on paper. Bishop shouldn't stand a chance at becoming. WCW's executive producer. He's their promotions backup announcer a guy so low in the pecking order that Shaw had never heard of him until his resume landed on his desk but shaw's curious. He wants to know why Bischoff reckons he could run the show a ride Eric. This is your moment. Tell me how are you going to fix. WCW BISCHOFF straightens up and makes his case the old ways won't work if they did all those regional promoters the WWF wiped out would still be around. We need to you think like a TV production company not a wrestling promotion. We need production values to match. WWF and we can't just focus on the south to beat WWF. We've got to think and Act National Shaw Notch P agrees wholeheartedly with Bishops Analysis Alice's okay. So how would you take. WCW Out of the red and into the black we cut back on live events every time we do one. We lose money. That's going to continue until we sort out the TV shows. Maybe we stopped live shows altogether shaw smiles. He's impressed by bishops bold old ideas although he feels that stopping live events completely is a step too far a few days later. Bischoff gets the job but now that he's talked his way into. WCW's driving seat. He's got to deliver its fall. Nineteen ninety-three and Bischoff is is at Disney World in Orlando Florida but he's not on vacation instead. He's touring Disney. MGM Studios. He's been hunting for a permanent TV suit location for WCW for weeks and now he's found the ideal home. It's facilities are first rate. It's Disneyworld location means. There will always be a studio audience on hand. Bischoff also loves that. WCW's TV shows could open with the words coming to you from the Disney Disney Mgm Studios in Orlando Florida but he's getting ahead of himself he might wanNA bring wrestling to Disneyworld but Disney isn't sure it wants this is muscle heads hanging around the magic kingdom a couple of weeks later bishops back in Orlando trying to convince a conference room full of Disney executives to let WCW through their gates but it's not going well. Several of the executives have turned around in their seats putting their backs to him bischoff soldiers on. I promise you that. WCW is very much a family friendly production. It won't be out of place in Disneyworld the Disney any team looked doubtful bischoff can sense the opportunity slipping away from him but then out of the blue one Disney executive. You've come to the rescue. I know this is outside our comfort zone but I think this could be good at the studio will be in constant use generating income plus. I think it will be an added attraction for guests. The intervention defrosts the room after more discussion. Russian the Disney executives agree to let. WCW used the studio but there are conditions. We don't want wrestlers wandering around the theme park frightening our guests they get bussed in and out each day and they don't leave the studio when here and the curtains on the bus windows must be drawn so people. I don't see them arrive. Bischoff interrupts noted the curtains. I'll accept the rest but I that's going too far. The Disney executives confer briefly fine fine no curtains. I think we have a deal getting into Disneyworld is a big boost for Bischoff but an even bigger boost it is just around the corner thanks to Rick flair earlier that year he quit. WWF to rejoin w will you see W after McMahon started pushing younger wrestlers to the four fifths December nineteen ninety-three and flares in the living room of his Atlanta home putting bags of ice on his strained muscles last night the brash wrestling star foot in one of the greatest performances of his career a roller coaster championship ship fight with rival wrestler Baiter that had the audience of WCW Star Kate pay per view on the edge of their seats as he applies another the rice bag his phone rings. He reaches over and grabs the handsome. This is rick. Hey records the huckster last night brother. Wow Wow you nearly had me crying. It was so good they suck. Tell me brother what's going on in. WCW That's creating shows. How's that good flare sinks back into the couch well? We've got this new guy in charge names Eric Bischoff. He's got some really great ideas. After a moment of silence Hogan response. You should give me his number. It's two in the morning. The following day and and Bishoff is awakened by a phone call her Eric Bischoff speaking. He recognizes the voice on the line immediately Brunner honor. We should talk it's Hogan and he's about to give Bischoff in the WCW the Lego. They Been Frayne for on the next episode. hulkamania comes to Atlanta Vince McMahon Vases prison and Ted Turner declares all out war from wondering this in business wars hope. You enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe on spotify stitcher apple podcast Google podcast iheartradio or wherever you get your podcast casts you'll find a link on the episode notes just tap or Swipe the cover art and you'll see some offers from our sponsors. You can support our show by supporting them. We hope you yeah well. If you like what you've heard we would love it. If you give us a five star rating and tell your friends how to subscribe to another way you can support by answering a short survey at wondering dot Com. Tom Slash survey and don't forget to tell us what business war stories. You'd like to hear a quick note about the conversations. You've been hearing. We can't know exactly what was said but this dialogue is based on our best research. I'm your host. David Brown tristen Donovan wrote this story Karen. Low is our senior producer and editor Donna. Hi edited the story. Our editor and producer is jenny lower beckmann sound design by bay area south. Our executive producer is Marshall Louis created by Annan Lopez or wondering drink.

WCW WWF Vince McMahon Atlanta Hulk Hogan wrestling Eric Bischoff Ted Turner Ric flair Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter executive producer executive Bill Shaw Jerry McDevitt Bill Watts cowboys Europe Harrisburg vw FBI
SBA Financing and Glebe Lands

The Dave Gram Show on WDEV

1:34:08 hr | 1 year ago

SBA Financing and Glebe Lands

"From radio vermont it's the dave graham show on w. devi. It's your show about the people places and the issues that matter the most to you now. Here's your host dave graham good morning vermont. We have a good show lineup today on this monday august twenty sixth two thousand and nineteen and the <hes> going to start out with this morning with the kit norton of digger we talking about some of bernie sanders recent policy rollouts. He's been doing several of them. On different topics ranging from climate change to labor issues <hes> to <hes> <hes> a range of other stuff that sanders sanders is providing some detailed <hes> announcements about what he wants what he plans to do if he's elected president so that'll be an interesting conversation to start the show and then the second can half hour <hes> darcy carter of the my office of the small business administration will be visiting with us as we'll ryan mcdevitt benchmark space systems system's benchmark has never mind manufacturer. They're working on some propulsion systems for various pieces of much liked by nasa and other government in dod the at cetera agencies and <hes> we'll be talking about the two of them about a <hes> finance program that these small business administration is offering for for inner inventors and innovators out there in the in the business world and so <hes> looking forward to hear from them on that topic and then in the second hour of the program. There's <hes> <hes> the southern vermont called glebelands or lease lands where towns actually have owned pieces of land in there within their borders and say the the eighteenth or early nineteenth centuries and <hes> folks have come in and built houses on them and sold them off and done a wide variety of different things but but there are still these deed restrictions saying that the town has a has a an interest of an ownership interest in these pieces of land and <hes> a couple of years ago the legislature passed is law saying that <hes> the town's needed to eat or claim or get out and fully claim or get out and the most towns are getting out i think in fact that's the exclusive uh activity. That's going on in this regard. We're going to be hearing all about this from karen horner about league cities and towns and also there's been some discussion. Just we picked the town all muster mr random here in vermont where they've been talking about this issue recently town of fairfax up in franklin county near saint albans the town manager brad dough chef will be joining us along with karen horns of lease cities and towns to talk about leave lands and <hes> some little bit historic vermont and legal interest going on there. We'll have an interesting conversation. I'm sure but let's start it out this morning with kit norton of digger dot org kid thanks so much for coming in my pleasure dave and you've been writing a lot about the bernie sanders presidential campaign lately obviously that is <hes> right in the wheelhouse of what diggers going to be covering because he is romance junior senator and he is a second time presidential candidate this cycle and he is just out with with a couple of different. He's got <hes> environment labor criminal justice's another one that he's been delving into and coming out with with a detailed proposal so let's pick one <hes> almost random here. I guess <hes> forgo <hes> alphabetically. I think criminal justice comes first so tell us about his criminal justice plan fine yeah yeah last week was a busy one for him. Definitely so th this plan that he put out <hes> which put last sunday when he was in south carolina <hes> the big takeaways really are are this would legalize marijuana would ban private prisons <hes> it would stop the practice of <hes> <hes> cash bail <hes> and would also demilitarize the local police <hes> departments by not allowing them to get <hes> <hes> military surplus <hes> weapons and <hes> and also do some things where it would rollbacks or aspects of the nineteen ninety four crime bill <hes> which you know has been a punching bag <hes> this election cycle for democrats including <hes> looking at the sentencing between a crack and powder cocaine <hes> looking at some of the <hes> resist <hes> reason behind those decisions that were made in the nineties so it really comes out swinging at <hes> <hes> former vice president joe biden <hes> and then also <hes> <hes> senator from massachusetts elizabeth warren actually she she before her own <hes> criminal justice reform plan. I believe it was just a day or two after sanders did <hes> both of them continuing to to vie vie for that progressive <hes> part of the vote with with more and more policy proposals and more and more proposals which <hes> look to <hes> look forward in a progressive progressive manner are there any areas in which there is daylight between differences between the zander's plan in the warren plan on criminal justice. They're very similar. You know she's come out in favor of <hes> marijuana legalization <hes> she's come out in favor of really looking at <hes> some of the <hes> systemic islamic racism in the criminal justice system and looking at reforming that they're very very similar. It's very hard to say. One is <hes> better or more progressive than the other. They're very very similar. <hes> as with a lot of their proposals they've put out they've kind of been jockeying for similar space and you see that again with their <hes> their support of your senators to put out his medicare for all proposal <hes> warranted said she supports medicare for all also there the differences between their <hes> <hes> college <hes> college debt forgiveness near there are more striking differences warren. I think has a cap on how much she would allow to be. <hes> <hes> forgiven where sanders carte blanche all is taken <hes> but in terms of criminal justice reform is very much more difficult to say this is where they're different when the thing about criminal justice justice reform in particular is that i think i think sanders anyway sees it as an issue which is going to play and be be important to african american get voters because he roll it out in south carolina where of course <hes> a large block of <hes> democratic voters in the primary there are african american and <hes> and he actually specifically you know went right there. He said this is a quote from sanders speech. I guess a week ago yesterday where he was rolling out his criminal justice <hes> platform he said we're going to ask why it is that we have more people in jail in america than in any other country on earth disproportionately african american and so <hes> he certainly the <hes> goes right to a major issue <hes> of our criminal justice system which are the racial implications of the disproportionate number of african americans because who are locked up in our massive criminal justice and prison systems and <hes> so that's <hes> that that's a key factor for him. I think it is that the case would warrant as well <hes> yes yeah again. It's it's these are these are two wight progressive senators who are definitely playing to a <hes> of voting base <hes> and and that it's important to come out strongly on these <hes> on these <hes> policy decisions that the play the play well in certain areas of the country sanders sometimes has been accused of of not doing that well with african americans of <hes> having. I don't know something of a ten year or something for for for issues which are of importance to african american voters <hes> is worn does warranty suffer from the same affliction. We know it's interesting based on polling <hes> you know sanders is very very well with <hes> between like the <hes> the eighteen and twenty nine year old's <hes> african americans hispanics etc <hes> but again it's where he fades off in the the older contingent so while he pulls if not in the top in that younger class you know he's way down behind biden harris even buddha judge <hes> on the older on that older contingent so it's it's more difficult to say you know <hes> what the reason is <hes> and what's the breakdown late for warned you know for warren. I'm not sure i know she is. She and bernie are very close on that on the on the <hes> the young group now i do believe she is she's behind harris. <hes> on on the older <hes> contention african americans by obviously leading the pack on harris spoke out on criminal justice issues as well although she seems to really have some baggage that was very interesting piece over the weekend and the atlantic about harris's record in california as as a district attorney in san francisco and then later as the attorney general of the whole state of california wherein <hes> she definitely <hes> played played prosecutor hardball for a lot of that time and <hes> <hes> you know there are arguments to be made for that's the role of a prosecutor is to play play hardball in the context of the criminal justice system but in a vacuum i'm just looking at some of her actions and inactions in the face of some allegations of serious corruption for instance in the orange county sheriff's department in california <hes> y- the interesting that <hes> and i actually think there may be more <hes> more trouble for her ahead in the campaign people continue to examine her record as has as an attorney general california and is and is a district attorney so a interesting as you remember <hes> that's what <hes> congressman chelsea chelsea gabbard hitter on <hes> in the last debate <hes> was on her record and <hes> <hes> harris did not respond particularly well on the stage <hes> and since then we have seen in the polls pulls you know her <hes> her numbers have slipped after her strong performance in the first debate <hes> <hes> bernie sanders says we said we were going to detail some of his policy proposals out with a couple of others that we wanted to get to <hes> during this half hour session with kit norton of <hes> of e._t. Digger dot o._r._g. And by the way if you listeners out there have any questions about this or comments you'd like to make more than welcome to check in with us at two four one seven seven seven a local number here in waterbury the toll free number number one eight seven seven to nine one eight two five five and a single you squeeze in one more topic before we go to a break kit. Norton and let's talk briefly fleet about about labor <hes> because sanders is out <hes> he he's always been somebody who tried to ally himself with organized labor <hes> what's he got up asleep in that in in that regard this time around all right so he just put another proposal which would basically against strengthened the ability for collective bargaining take place and strengthened how folks are able to join unions unions and this to you know it's it's strategic as as you know the unions are very very important voting block and their support is very very important and and he's jockeying again with warren and biden specifically for their sort even though he has throughout his career in <hes> public office <hes> had had a much of their support support from the unions so this plan. It's really <hes> there's not really a lot of changes except putting down in writing <hes> basically what he believes is important and why unions are important however they're the one part that has caused a bit of controversy which happened last week was around <hes> the language in the proposal which would which says that his medicare for all proposal <hes> it would allow that if there's any any money is being saved by companies that make the switch from <hes> union negotiated healthcare plans private healthcare plans to medicare for all if if they were to go into effect that those savings would have to go back to the unions in terms of <hes> wages and other benefits <hes> and the washington post game out and wrote an article saying that this shows that <hes> sanders is saying that there is room for <hes> a private insurers or that prime insurers are actually better than medicare for all which he is strongly only come out in the past saying no this is this is not something he believes <hes> and then the campaign came out and said that the washington post was <hes> reporting inaccurately in this was is not what what the <hes> the plan was saying at all so that was another this kind of going back and forth between the washington post and the sanders campaign <hes> on on the latest yeah yeah i i think that the <hes> medicare for all is an interesting question because many unions and we saw somewhat in in the in the single payer debate we had in vermont vermont a few years ago under the under governor peter someone where the state was talking about single payer system that would essentially operate state wide in one of the questions was so to what degree will the teacher's union beyond board <hes> eh because there is some sense that teachers get very uh excellent healthcare health coverage now under their negotiated contracts could that be diminished at all under a system in which essentially everybody got the same coverage and and <hes> and you see that with some other other unions which have negotiated over the years and have had a tradition of of really top flight low low deductible loco pay high coverage <hes> and coverage for broad range of services including care and dental care et cetera these things you have gotten negotiated into some union contracts contracts over the years and the question is if we all go to a public system would that public system <hes> be less <hes> less high quality yeah. I guess this is the real question is that is that the kind of underlying theme here that that is the the the concern that's being brought by well what's being reported as being being brought to the sanders camp <hes> by unions <hes> this this argument was really i brought up on the national platform this election cycle <hes> in the last debate where <hes> <hes> the ohio representative tim ryan who's i think he's still in the race home. He he hit sanders on this very issue saying that <hes> medicare for all there was no way to know whether it would offer better benefits <hes> than <hes> union-negotiated healthcare plans <hes> however to go back to what day it was just saying about <hes> the teacher's union here in vermont you know irish out to a spokesperson for <hes> the teacher's union and he basically said you know that that argument he's never heard that argument in the labor movement and that <hes> there they fully support medicare for all and that basically all it would do would it would allow more bargaining <hes> and more negotiations on other. The topics are roughly twenty guests still remaining democratic candidates in the field <hes> vying for that party's nomination. It'll be a primary process. Reports begins <hes> in dead of winter new hampshire and iowa and goes through south carolina and nevada <hes> california whole bunch of other states that have primaries and caucuses focuses around the country and eventually a nominee will be officially chosen at the democratic party at the <hes> national convention of the democratic party next summer <hes> probably just about about a year from now or maybe a little earlier in the summer the <hes> <hes> meanwhile the republican party is widely expected to <hes> re-nominate end run again again <hes> president donald trump the incumbent <hes> who has who was first elected in two thousand sixteen the bernie sanders <hes> put on a surprisingly really strong <hes> run really in two thousand sixteen. I don't think a lot of people expected them to do as well as he did. I think he ended up winning in the primaries or caucuses in twenty twenty two states. If i recall it do you have that number. Get believe unless twenty two yeah and <hes> <hes> and so he's back this time and of course the big change here for sanders is is that <hes> there's a lot more competition now. They're a whole bunch of other candidates in there a in the last round he started. I think they started out with five candidates and quickly narrative related to just sanders hilary clinton the eventual nominee who went on to lose to trump in november the <hes> <hes> so sanders enters you know it's a much much bigger field now and there are some other folks in the in the primary campaign who are who've adopted a lot of the positions that sanders was talking about about in two thousand sixteen fifteen dollars an hour minimum wage the the idea of <hes> making college affordable for <hes> moderate income students in in modern families <hes> and many of the other ideas that bernie sanders pushed in in sixteen hour sort of mainstream platform planks in campaigns pains of the democratic candidates so different <hes> different dynamic here in the in the two thousand twenty primary race for bernie sanders and <hes> but we were just talking about his he's been rolling out some pretty detailed position papers in the last week or so and <hes> <hes> one of the one of the things he's been talking about. We we can't discuss criminal justice platform a few minutes ago. <hes> touched on the labour platform sanders also has ruled out recently on the environment. He's got a plan to address climate change kit. Tell us a little bit about that so this one excuse me really the big part of this is is it would make it so that it would be job creation as well as making sure that <hes> by no later than twenty thirty <hes> there'd be we'd be off fossil fuel's completely on renewable energy <hes> and also the big thing would be electric vehicles across the board and he'd be rolling out a lot more <unk> a federal incentives for lower income folks to be able to get electric cars and not just <hes> which statistics show mostly <hes> wealthier folks are the only ones that really getting <hes> <hes> electric cars those are the big takeaways and the but the big one is the price tag for this which they're estimating over at this is a ten year period <hes> would be sixteen point three trillion dollars that would be a poured into these different programs <hes> and to get get get get the country off fossil fuels well. If if you get the country off fossil fuels there would be some savings from people not buying gasoline anymore. Are those factored enemy. No those when we come helpless sixteen trillion is the total we're gonna spend do we subtract out the amount we're currently spending on things like gasoline and diesel and so on what style is direct investment so that would be six point point three trillion dollars of direct investment into these programs <hes> well i i. I wonder i mean is interesting. Interesting exercise it goes on your where people come up with the price tag for say sanders medicare for all healthcare plan and <hes> and the folks who want to oppose talk about how bad the idea is don't subtract out typically at least in the first presentation. They make the idea that you know right now. Families are typically. We paying five hundred dollars a month more. If you have a family health insurance plan you end up having that deducted from your paycheck because you're that's the employee share era of an employer sponsored early someone employer sponsored health care health coverage plan and so you know the the sort of karner counter hundred counter is is yeah your your taxes are going to go up to pay for healthcare but you're going to lose that five hundred dollars a month premium share that you're paying now four or five hundred dollars somewhere somewhere in there and <hes> <hes> so there is an offset there so that's why i sort of wonder when we see number like sixteen trillion. It seems <hes> really geared it almost a scaring people off but then you do have to say well are there. Are there actual financial savings that come along with that and that's what. I think that's what's less clear. It's it's definitely a a less clear from from reading the plan you know and this is one of the things where they're not going to the nitty gritty of tax policy in terms of you know even looking at you know if you get rid of gasoline gasoline okay so where's the gas tax for the roads. You know we're not talking about that. Type of in-depth policy here we're talking about <hes> even though the these <hes> a proposed are quite long on online <hes> they're not getting into the nitty gritty of which <hes> you know where and when and how that money is coming to come in for taxes and the <hes> <hes> electric vehicles one of the things that i wonder about with electric vehicles is i've seen a couple of articles over time talking about the some of the environmental impacts impacts of manufacturing them in the life cycle cost of those batteries <hes> etcetera <hes>. It's not really free. No nothing's ever free dave uh-huh. Is that the case and <hes> he <hes>. Let's go to a caller guy on guy from berlin on the line good morning guy good show this morning good good morning dave and kit <hes> have interview ever been -cation wells beach maine. I i've been over to that area. I know we we've we've beat some and been to gunk went up sure i've been the wells wells. Yeah okay well when you go down to the beach. There's a there's a couple. That's always sitting there. I mean every day monday. Law and i struck up a conversation. The last time we were over there 'cause that's our favorite place used to go and he was retired sheriff and prison superintendent in new york state actually was was offered the job in springfield and we got to talking about <hes> racial injustice systemic injustice <hes> and he's of the the idea that there is absolutely absolutely systemic racial injustice but it doesn't happen so much at the policing level <music> as it happens at the at the cultural level diety jobs -education resulted is i. We gotta fortunately that's are. You have to go got to cut you off but i appreciate. They call you check back in with us. Hey <hes> reap breaking the day rancho kit norton. Thank you so much for coming in. I wish i had a dollar for every compliment. I get about our selection upstairs at warren store. The season's collection boasts country casual clothing for men and women dresses for summer weddings and events baby clothing from china and doodle pants and fairtrade jewelry from around the world. I'm excited about a new line of pottery from londonderry vermont also illuminated paper stars for outdoor fun. It's a great day trip to warren village comfort lunch lunch on the deck and upstairs for some unique retail therapy fund funky and friendly and almost world-famous newsradio w._d. F._m. and a._m. Now back to the dave ramsey show and we are back in <hes>. We have some interesting conversation lined up here. I think it concerns a a financing program from the s._b._a. That is from the small business administration that is that is geared to the <hes> <hes> geared <music> geared to <hes> innovation and inventions in this kind of thing and <hes> the one of the aspects of this that interested me is that there's going to be a big announcement. I think coming up in a couple of weeks related to <hes> this this program which is normally only these things are rolled out in in our bigger urban areas around the country of this is a rare experience for vermont to get this <hes> get the s._b._a. Up here to have a have a rollout of this financing package and <hes> with us <hes> this morning on the phone is <hes> ryan mcdevitt who who is with <hes>. Let's see space <hes> looking for my <hes> my <hes> benchmark space systems there we go and <hes> and also also joining us. This morning is darcy carter of the small business administration's office in my puglia. She's as the district director for the office with the small business administration and i wanna thank darcy and ryan for joining me this morning. Thanks ryan brian you on the line. I am here excellent good. Thank you for. Thank you for joining us this morning. Some <hes> benchmark space systems is the name of your company and <hes> and you actually. She sent me some interesting information over the weekend about you you. You're you have some experience in in dealing with the s._b._a. And and having them help you along in the development of your business. We'll get to that in just a minute. I i wanted to kind of get an overview here from darcy carter of the small business administration. Tell us about this program and <hes>. Maybe give a better description than than <hes>. I can't about its overall purpose. I sure so s._p._a. Our mission is to help small businesses get started and grow successfully ashley and one of the <hes> really kind of understated program. That's out there is the small business innovative research program also small business tech transfer program that kind of sister programs and this is called america's biggest seed capital fund and it's basically <hes> competitive research opportunities for small businesses with <hes> up to. I think it's eleven ryan correct me. If i'm running a federal agencies all have <hes> research budget so each year or it's it's upwards of three billion dollars. Maybe five thousand awards are given a year it grants or contracts and this is to help fund our in d- <hes> from tech companies <hes> sometimes in combination with universities research institutes sometimes separately <hes> ryan can kind of tell you his his <hes> his journey through that process they <hes> vermont is somewhat underrepresented in terms of the number of although there have been many companies in vermont over the years since the program started in the seventies that have won awards. <hes> and ryan is a recent <hes>. I think it's two thousand nineteen wordy so that's <hes> very exciting <hes> so the reason for the s._b._a. Our road tour was this is the event that's coming to burlington at u._v._m. September sixteenth <hes> it's a day long event and it's trying to you know attract those innovators entrepreneurs people are in d <hes> to kind of see what opportunities unity's they might have to get their projects funded if there's an a good alignment with the federal agency so they can meet one on one with the program heads of eleven different agencies agencies that have huge research budgets so it's really a once in a lifetime kind of opportunity here in vermont. <hes> a lot of people have to travel outside of the state to find this opportunity so he wanted to make sure in our local communities aware of it again. Use the date the location in september sixteen and it's at u._v._m. I'm at the davis center and if you go on s. b. i. R. road tour dot com. You can see <hes> there's four different tours. Ours is called the eastern tour. You're so you're just click on that and kind of walk through it and you can register twenty five dollars in that covers that food basically essentially free except for the food okay okay and <hes> <hes> ryan mcdevitt benchmark space systems it was co founded by you and matt shea i see here in in june of twenty seventeen and oh you had been in a two k. two person consulting company but we're interested in growing the company and thought that perhaps the s._b._a. Small business administration seed capital would be a good way to get you off the ground and you did this kind of in stages from what i saw from the material you sent me over. The weekend talked to us about a little bit about how that all worked out yeah absolutely so <hes> one of the big things and are kind of lewd to this one of the big things with <hes> kind of innovative research and just for a second <hes> for your audience so we do small satellite propulsion so it's a technology that was developed <hes> at the university of vermont. I was a student there and we kinda spun it out <hes> and one of the things that happens with some of these technologies that are gonna take a lot of r._n._d. To really get to a product stage is very tough for investors to kind of get interested is it in there's kind of a long roadway to actually having a product where you can generate revenue and so <hes> the s._b._a. Program really kind of bridges that gap for a lot of people all and certainly that's what's happened with us. It was able to to kind of set that up for us <hes> but back to your question speaking to the kind of road map <hes> when we were interested in it the first thing that we did <hes> we actually had to go out of state. We went to the the nationalist pierre conference down in <hes> in washington d._c. That gave us the opportunity to meet with the heads of all these different departments nasa and the d._o._d. N._s._f. and so that's why it's so exciting that this row chose coming coming to vermont so that people can have that same opportunity to meet with <hes> people <hes> like we did but we try a lot of state to do it. <hes> that's really useful who'll because when you get to sit with the <hes> different people from these different departments <hes> they all have kind of different ideas and visions for how the s._b._a. Our program works with what they do so for example nasa and the air force <hes> to customers that we have s._b._a. Our contracts with <hes> they have different kind of roadmaps for how this technology gets infused how they think about this and so when you're writing an s._p._a. Proposal <hes> you really want to be able to tailor it to the specific customer customer so those one on one meetings were really critical for us to to actually <hes> go through so that's why it's so exciting that it's coming here. <hes> the the next next up after we did those one meetings <hes> we actually there's <hes> there was a program and i believe it's still continuing although i can't speak to that specifically but <hes> on through vermont escort program <hes> phase zero words so this was a small dollar award that was intended to provide a little bit more of that r._n._d. Research there's to get your your technology ready for an s._b._a. Are phase one submission and so we we were able to do that in in two thousand seventeen and the culmination chen of that work we were awarded our first phase one in two thousand eighteen and then that follows onto a phase two in two thousand nineteen so <hes> kind of worked through the stages like you said ed and each stage. There's actually a bigger granted comes your way. It looks like yeah absolutely no <hes> for us. The way that that the timing worked out so we had you know this kind of <hes> we went on this trip to them that national conference than we did that zero <hes> that was about a fifteen thousand dollar award award to do <hes> some fundamental research that phase one in our case it's different by agency and timing but in our case that phase one was about fifty thousand dollar reward at least two that were working on it was a six hundred seventy thousand dollar award so <hes> kind of a big jump up there but beginning an opportunity to to really <hes> <hes> dig in and build a product that the air force in that case <hes> is interested in and then it's it's one of the last century is here. The last i guess on a bullet list you sent me with these s._b._a. Are awards confirmation of the government interest in our technology. We raised a two point. Two million dollar seed round in two thousand nineteen. Is that for private investors. That's right yeah so <hes> venture capital and angel investors <hes> and the s._b._a. Our program is so important to. I'm kind of bridge that gap i if if we were going out in two thousand sixteen with an idea but no real r._n._d. Behind it without that kind of confirmation <hes> that the there was some government customers interested in this product. It's so much harder to try and raise funds <hes> with once. We had those in place. It's a much easier story to say <hes>. We're looking for some private investment. It's gonna be augmented by <hes> the government dollars there's both commercial customers and government customers that are interested in this product <hes> outlet work together to get this onto the market in that's going to be a much better position to strength from your perspective to be able to go to private investor and say you know not only not they do. Have we interested the gov- the government enough to give us some grants but we actually have some government customers. <hes> you know the u._s. Air force is interested in buying our product and and and <hes> so i mean that's a that's a much bigger arrow in your quiver. Isn't it absolutely and one of the things that's really important about the s._b._a. Our program <hes> it is absolutely critical for companies like us in terms of <hes> providing that early stage <hes> validation in the r._n._d. Dollars but a ah most importantly the s._b._a. Program it's a it's a phase program as one face to face three and fees three is really a transition to selling products to the government the way that the program is set up <hes> if you can go through the you know during the face to your proving out the technology identifying customer needs and working with them that at least three transition <hes> that is a sole source contract where they can purchase from you <hes> using these kind of other transaction authorities to actually just <music> i products from you <hes> and so you know this is not just about the r._n._d. That's really critical at the early stages but really anyone who's on an s._p._a._r._c. The real value long-term is being able to transition into that sole source contract with the government ran mcdevitt <hes> your your the company actually has been a big success here. I'm just wondering what <hes> how many employees do you have. Yes we've got fifteen employees right right now. We've got another guy starting in a couple of weeks here. So we up to sixteen <hes>. We're base right here. In south burlington vermont we still work closely flee with <hes> university of vermont <hes> doing all sorts of projects there so really excited to be part of the vermont community <hes> and supporting in that way and again. The main thing you're doing at least so far is is satellite propulsion. Is that right yes yes so there's this big move to <hes> miniaturized satellite so think of a satellite about the size of a loaf of bread. We're we're working on and we actually have a lunch coming up here. In the first quarter of twenty twenty that'll be our first product going into space <hes> <hes> and and we're excited to get that launched and going to be a commercial or a government application so that particular ones that commercial application <hes> but it is demonstrating in testing out some of the technology that we are working on with nasa on the s._b._a. Are that that will transition. Can you tell us anything about the propulsion system mm-hmm or is it to to <hes> competitive and secure and that sort of thing i mean yeah we so absolutely anyone who's interested. Please visit our website. <hes> benchmark dash cash-based dot com <hes> has all sorts of information about our propulsion systems and we're going to be putting up videos and all sorts of stuff but very briefly do chemical propulsion which means <hes> our the system has essentially some gas on board and it's controlled by a valve and you open up that valve initial push the satellite around <hes> are proprietary technology the part that was developed valid you v._m. And that we spun out house to do with how do you create that gas. How do you pressurize once. It's in space so we really focus on safe. Non-toxic <hes> low low-pressure <hes> launch and then we can can do this stuff in space and that gives us kind of a unique <hes> kind of niche within the market that we can focus on it's and we're we're will be from yes so we're launching with <hes> firefly aerospace and they're launching out of vandenberg air force base in california and and <hes> and this'll be up to what is the traditional height of satellites <hes> some distance from the earth for instance yes so and that yeah particularly lunch will be at three hundred kilometers <hes> to put this in perspective. The space station is about four hundred kilometers <hes> and so we're kind of operating <hes> y- the most of the smaller satellites like talking about operate from the space station down so four hundred or below <hes> but satellites operate <hes> kind kind of there's low-earth-orbit in their up to eight hundred dollars and then you can go really far away like geosynchronous orbit which is <hes> roughly thirty thousand kilometers away dorsey carter the district director of the s._b._a. Office here in in in vermont <hes> based in montpellier <hes> telling talk to me a little bit about the university of companies out there <hes> to which this program might appeal <hes> how many firms in vermont to would be considered eligible. Oh four this sort of government help <hes> yeah so on e._s._p._n. Dot gov there is like everything's spelled out for those people who are interested in really checking out the specifics affects the eligibility criteria and how to search for different opportunities as all available to that <hes> but for here in for months some of the companies that are well known biotec check instruments <hes> n._b._a. n._f. Bioscience <hes> quanta specked concepts and our e._c. Out of white river junction <hes> green sea systems had one in <hes> richmond marine under waters up where navigation or something ryan probably knows more stuff than i do <hes> pacatan energy <hes> also associated with u._p._s. and <hes> so we have had many successful awardees but based on <hes> comparing us to similar miller other states are size more underrepresented in that's why the tourists coming here to make a special effort to reach out to rural areas women owned and business minority owned businesses to try to <hes> attract more applicants for the program. My guests are darcy carter. She's the district director with the a small business administration's office here in vermont they're based in montpellier ryan mcdevitt with benchmark space systems as a company based in south burlington that is developing propulsion for satellites and <hes> is <hes> getting some some governed support and some it looks like some government contracts as well to actually develop some products for getting satellites out in space and and is going to be launching a commercial commercial satellite upcoming at is that going to be your first ryan. You said yeah that's going to be accompany our our first launched so we're really excited to get that up there. Break a bottle of champagne over this breads bread loaf sized satellite or what do you do <hes>. The funny part is with a with a satellite lunch. <hes> the actual day of the launch can get changed around. You've probably seen you know over the years. Launches get scrubbed and they have to to redo. I do so we're we're anticipating lunch party but we may have to do it a little after the fact could actually goes up i i. It's got to be a pretty exciting moment for a young company like yours. Yeah absolutely when we hire you know one of the things that we really look for people who are passionate about working together to get something into space so <hes> to actually yeah for a lot of the people that we're bringing on board. This is part of the dream of coming to work here so so super excited. That's <hes> that's pretty awesome. <hes> and darcy carter of the small business administration ministration we were talking a little bit about <hes> during the break just about the impact of that is likely to happen in vermont <hes> business community especially the the sort of tech end of the business community the upcoming this september sixteenth conference at u._v._m.'s day davis center which is designed to bring in all the ryan mcdevitt soon vermont it sounds like and have have them get into a room and talk about <hes> how to launch a project like this and how to apply for the government grants who to speak with in fact it looks like at this conference there are going to be representatives resentatives there from the air for the various military branches and also from the <hes> from the national science foundation the let's see what we have is quite a quite a department of homeland security environmental protection agency national institute for standards of standards and technology <hes> so so a whole range of government agencies are interested in finding businesses <hes> within the partner and so <hes> the what do you think the impact will be darcy darcy on this <hes> on vermont business community of just surely ha- merely having this conference here in vermont <hes> we'll definitely the only to raise awareness statewide and also we are trained to attract people from new york massachusetts new hampshire maine cetera <hes> people will travel to come to these events events and absolutely it's about you know opportunity. That's out there. That's going you know unsought after by our local businesses because they just may not know about it and and you're not always associated with research institute you could have developed a technology <hes> apart from that and still be successful in pursuing an s._b._a. Are <hes> <hes>. It's interesting that you know obviously department. Defense is a is a heavy hitter in this program health and human services national science foundation but you also have department of education the department of energy u._s._d._a. Department of agriculture and you know perhaps. There's something somebody's doing here <hes> that it never dawned on them. You know eh. This could be a good application for what they're doing something in psychology. Are you know <hes> education things like that that that are getting awards. It's another states not all the heavy technical and military application and that sort of thing. It's also a wide range of areas where where folks they have so went on health and human services for example. There's a million different departments for you know cancer and for you know i ah i couldn't even begin to explain the many many areas of research that they're interested in and that's just one example so <hes> we again encourage people to go to these agency agency websites and just put s._b._a. Are in their s._d._r. And see what's available some. Have you know ongoing awards all year long. Some we'll have won a year. I don't have to a year or something like that right. Okay i mean it's interesting to me because i know one area of innovation in vermont. It's gotten a little covered in the news. Reason lease is folks who we're out there trying to work out a systems for cleaning phosphorus from water flowing toward lake champlain in our rivers and streams and in the lake itself and so on and and so there's some research going on <hes> you know how do you how do you clean the phosphorus out of the water and i saw epa list. There sounds like that could be a match rate rape exactly and that's what when when you go to meet one on one with the program head for e._p._a. Who will be coming the best thing you can do if this is an area of interest go to their website website go under e._s._p._n. Look at the types of research projects that they are contracting for really get familiar with you know the scope of you know their work <hes> so you're prepared when you talk with them. Get the most out of it and you know. I mean if somebody else has already doing exactly what you're doing. Maybe that moves it down there less as opposed to something that looks like it would be a nice addition to the list of stuff. They're already doing right yeah. The more you can talk and kind of get that nuanced stuff out and you're going to be played more advantaged inch that's the that is very interesting and how does the breakdown go in terms of the different agencies and how much money they had to play with really individual individualized. I'm definitely some. Have you know a billion dollars and some have like three million dollars. Just depends on the size of the agency <hes> it's definitely upwards of three billion dollars annually altogether that is out there available so this event at the davis center do v._m. On the sixteenth breath of september <hes> is is <hes> you gotta register ahead of time. We welcome mercy. Yes you can walk in but we recommend you register ahead of time so that you can get in and get networking right away. Make sure you get get that bag lunch or whatever it is named <hes> so that's it sounds like a really worthwhile thing for an awful lot of remind remind businesses. Do you have an estimate of how many people are gonna show up. I'm probably about one hundred fifty. They had one in new hampshire. Last year. I went to that. It was excellent. It's a day long event. <hes> starts starts pretty early starts at like seven <hes> goes all day and <hes> the the morning you that you will have pitches from every one of these agencies and then <hes> tom you'll have guidance and ryan will be speaking at <hes> one of our success stories at the lunch hour ryan the success story on the phone with us. Thank you very much for joining us. Ryan mcdevitt a benchmark inch mark space systems and darcy carter of the small business administration excellent subject than i really appreciate you getting on the show with us this morning. Correct me on c._b._s. News at the top of the hour of the dave ramsey show continues afterward. Stay with us. I wish i had a dollar for every compliment. I get about our selection upstairs at the warrants store. The season's collection boasts country casual clothing for men and women dresses esus for summer weddings and events baby clothing from sue chano and doodle pants and fairtrade jewelry from around the world. I'm excited about a new line of pottery from londonderry vermont also also illuminated paper stars for outdoor fun. It's a great day trip to warn village. Come for lunch on the deck and upstairs for some unique retail therapy fund funky and friendly and and almost world famous now back to the nave graham w._d. F._m. and we are back continuing being in the second hour of our program this morning august twenty sixth monday morning two thousand in nineteen and <hes> normally what we do at the just just after the c._b._s. News at the top of the hour in the middle of the show is to invite one of our correspondents from talk media news on get a little national perspective on the news out there air may break out beyond vermont's border some as much as i love talking to folks about things like in upcoming small business administration conference here in the state is we were in the last half hour car. It's also good to get a perspective on what's happening in national and international picture we get help with that frequent basis these days from bob ney talk media news and believe he is on the line good morning bob good morning dave. How are you happy monday and hey wanted to check in with you. We got some interesting stuff going on here of. There's a lot of noise on the china trade front. What's happening big deal. I i think now as you know this could change tomorrow morning but right now china's asking for some calm c. a. l. m. in the middle well disc that's major because <hes> i think it's the first time that i've seen china actually starting. I believe to worry about this entire trade deal. They tanked this morning on the <hes> asia markets and they're having a lot of currency issues and currency trouble. I think also they'll i'll never admit it. They're having a lot of grumblings within china. They have a communist dictatorship that actually has as we know. It has a <hes> you know a capitalist system. It's such a weird hybrid a communist dictatorship trying to run a capitalist economy basically and and <hes> and that's got to be <hes> the it's an empty drink. I guess you can pull it off. I don't know if it really is that workable. In the long run we'll have to see but but <hes> but yeah so so china's basically you're thinking they're blinking. Is that the idea well i do. I do think they are blinking on this and <hes> and so do you do you think that will president trump sort of emerges the victor here and we'll help them politically as he enters election season well as far as you know the election season you mean <hes> i mean this is a big deal. This is how trump got elected. You know it's not just china but the trade issues as we know he certainly talked about a lot in the two thousand sixteen campaign including the what used to be known as the north american pre-trading remained in his now has a different title. I can't quite remember what the but we called the new nor new nafta new nafta okay. That's the easy way i think i i thought there was another title that involved <hes> parts of the names of the countries involved or or something but <hes> <hes> but i could be wrong about that <hes> anyway <hes> so china is <hes> china. Maybe blinking here. I on the the other hand and they were i. I i heard some rhetoric just on the c._b._s. News reporting in the last hour or so indicating that china's still using fairly tough rhetoric and and talking about the united states <hes> you know may end up eating his words in that kind of thing so i don't know i mean i mean like i said who knows tomorrow tomorrow morning but china says that but i don't think they would come out and even make the initial statement. They weren't having some trouble but you know how president trump is. He's he's relentless. He'll probably come back at them. That that is true. Here is mutual co take our i think if that's an kotecha an economist at toronto dominion bank saying the bloomberg news the gloves are coming on both sides and as such you one in <hes> depreciation is an obvious cushion against u._s. tariffs and and and and that's that is an interesting strategy that china's really putting its currency holiday table oh yeah and the yuan slipped to the dollar and <hes> and then of course treasury department designated china as a currency manipulator which is a big formal step you know and then they'll work with the international monetary fund to go after unfair <hes> advantages including probably filing in the the world trade organization this is this is a big deal. I mean i've never seen it like this. Never gotten to this point because normally china just ignores and i and move we move on yeah. They kind of do what they want and but maybe there's maybe there's some cracking in the armor here. Hey meanwhile also on the economic front we have this g seven summit going on in france and a surprise visitor. Yes java the wreath. The foreign foreign minister of iran showed up at the invitation. We believe that the president of france and president trump had no comment now think about that for a second no comment comment so i think that basically indicates first of all the reef was invited because all of europe is for the iran nuclear deal and that's their way of showing showing that therefore the iran nuclear deal. They're not gonna pay attention to us. I mean a little bit of almost like a little bit of <hes>. It's kind of in your face. Isn't it the president trump from propel from the europeans yes. It's more in a honestly this more in the face of john bolton. I think john bolton the national security adviser. Its way up way more upset than than president trump. I really do on this because bolton hates iran in wants to nuke them but <hes> it's in your face but you macron must've said something privately to trump because when's the last time you saw president trump say no comment that was an and in fact i think he's i think he's been out with comment in the last couple of hours of about indicating that he doesn't believe there's any disrespect disrespected coming from a macro on right so i think that i think they had a chat and i think possibly this is hypothetical. Pure conjecture from me. Possibly trumpet macron have talked about that see if there's a way france can kind of bring the two countries together whether iran and america you know on a on a nuke deal and again <hes> president trump has tended to be his entire personal life against foreign intervention and he campaigned that way is president and then this conflict came up but i do think that his national security adviser manipulated this entire the thing from day one and and convinced the president trump that if he went toughest possible against the iranians all the way after their jugular they would reciprocate like kim jong hoon did and and they won't <hes> iran's no picnic government believe me but i'm just saying it was the wrong approach and i think now president trump realizes is maybe that was the wrong approach and maybe macron has talked him into waiting a little bit and see what president macron can do so <hes> elizabeth this warrants trying to take a bite out of joe biden and had a wha what i see describe is a warm reception in some in a speech he made in seattle well <hes> what's happening on the campaign for here. Well i mean it is seattle very progressive state but i must say <hes> warren is one of the first of of you've just a few. Maybe bernie sanders can do this but none of the candidates have risked. Hey let's have an open rally and see how many people come. I mean think think about it. They don't because they're afraid of you know five hundred showing up or something like that. There's this warren has won. Fifteen thousand people show up that's significant and on top of it <hes> it gives her a lot of push now because she was kinda down you know and joe biden strategy has been to wait it out. He's ahead it out but i think she's putting him in a box because if she keeps going after him that he has to come back at her eventually and ah her line in this carries over from the reason debates she says we're not gonna win this just by saying not trump. It's not enough to be not trump right. I know how to fight and i i know how to win <hes> and so so basically what i think what she's trying to say is that yeah okay so i mean everybody's making argumented that support biden because he's most electable the right but she's saying i am too and and by the way <hes> i'll actually make some changes to get some stuff done. Cetera painting yourself a little bit as more progressive than than joe biden right and you know dave from day one <hes> i have. I've had <hes> you know people. I know in politics <hes> progressives consultants you know people that are in the political system and you know we all talk. We like to share ideas and <hes> many of them. Originally they told me well anybody can be trump and now they're not saying that <hes> because that anybody can be trump if you take that theory then okay biden the guy and that's what elizabeth warren trying to dispel that it's not good enough to you say names about the president. It's not good enough to say anybody can beat him. It has to be a certain person so she's kinda dispelling. Maybe what people thought four four or five months ago. Anybody can beat him yeah. I i <hes> you finish your bob. <hes> some interesting media yeah analysis where you're saying that major conservative media outlets are still growing in the united states even in the trump era by broadening their coverage areas and audiences to reach as many people people as possible and the reason this matters is is a reversal of the more typical pattern in which ideological media. Let's take off with the president from the other side is in power our <hes> so there's no slow down for these folks is what you're saying. Yes normally <hes> having somebody especially especially like president trump who is an explosive figure <hes> normally having somebody like that republican would mean that the media is is really going to take off to the left blogs shows t._v. Etc right but this time it it hasn't now of course people are holding their own. Don't get me wrong but the conservative media is thriving when seriously should be just down a little bit the far-right sites have seen an increase crease on facebook traffic <hes> websites the daily mail online eighty wire breitbart they still rank high you know out there <hes> above <hes> like the how can post for example or or competitive to it and also fox news is still the number one news site <hes> on facebook this year in terms of reader engagement and then you've got you know certain <hes> blogs that are out there so he's a very fascinating <hes>. I'm not sure why this is happening. <hes> maybe deep president trump is so out front political. You know more active than bush. I don't know but normally in when the party in power is in the other party. Eighty normally gets a little bit of a boost in the media yeah. I guess everybody loves. An underdog is the old theory but maybe here is <hes> a case aware of course it's a it's a completely different animals days where <hes> you know that may have been the case when when you had this sort of traditional mainstream media responding to you whoever was in power by essentially casting it's critical eye and and toward whoever's in power trying to hold whoever's in power our accountable and so if the person in power is conservative. They're gonna look liberal by contrast and vice versa right right well well. It's it's a it's interesting times in the media as well as in many other segments of american society and i i love having bob ney come on with us on a regular basis and help us keep track of it. Have you stay with us out. There folks want to introduce my next two guests. Karen horn is with the vermont league of cities and towns and mafia. She's a regular feature fixed fixture around the state house representing our municipal governments in the halls under the golden dome and <hes> always glad to have karen show she has been on before so call her as returning champion and <hes> <hes> brad jeff is the town manager in the town of fairfax fairfax where are just full disclosure wiser station owner station general manager us <hes> steve corner is the is on the select board up in fairfax air facts and <hes> connected us up with brad jeff. <hes> fairfax's been discussing an issue which is playing out in a number of vermont towns and so we thought we'd bring brad. Brad does chef down to sort of explain to us how this is playing out in one local community here in vermont but the topic for for the next few minutes here on the day graham show <hes> is the subject of lease lands or used to be known as glebelands and these are pieces of property in towns as i understand it that were set aside way back in some cases in the eighteenth century or early nineteenth century <hes> for the local church and or the local school and and <hes> they have a setup some complications when people go and do do deed deed searches <hes> in land records searches especially when real estate transactions happen they see these things and they go <hes> what what is this and what does it what impact does it have one claims to ownership for the property and so on and so forth looked <hes> karen horner the vermont league cities and towns <hes> do a better introduction than i just did. Carolina explained knew a little bit about what is issue is well well this <hes> addresses the lands that town own towns on that are least originally to churches churches schools and the ministry and then when the u._s. constitution came into being and it was clear that there was was the separation of church and state the <hes> ministry and churches piece <hes> fell by the wayside and mostly these lands were dedicated dedicated the leases from these lands were dedicated to the port of schools <hes> what we're called grammar schools back in the day which were the only schools that they had it wasn't just the elementary school was just what they called schools so o over time <hes> the a a lot of towns have lost track of where they're li slants are the maps of them are really old there. There's an eighteen hundreds <hes> <hes> digest of some lease lands but where some towns have found that the least lands are pretty valuable to them might might be rights of way that wastewater treatment lines are through or parklands or something like that other towns really don't know where we're there at least lands are or what their value is until somebody goes to sell their home or business us and the title search turns up that there is a lease land involved with that transaction that needs to be settled yeah and so this is a <hes> where they call it. I think legally cloud on title right it would seem that way and so the legislature you leaders stepped in a couple of years ago to try to help set up a system where this these problems could be cleared up right yeah. The legislature passed a bill that that actually said that defines leased lands and perpetual lease lands in the statute and says that towns have until january one twenty twenty twenty to decide which lands they want to <hes> retain or they will if they take no action all lease lands ends will be automatically <hes> <hes> turned over to the underlying property owners and and a town can ski surrey at ten can decide that they don't wanna do that now they have to take good -firmative action to retain their lease lands ends before january one twenty twenty and then they would have time to do an assessment of what they actually have and they could get rid of individual parcels individual lisa's after that so brad i wanna make fairfax a little bit of a case study here okay and <hes> because i know this has been a subject of discussion in your select board recently <hes> what what's happening in fairfax on the subject of at least these lands sure the reason it came up on our site board meeting is this new legislation and we wanted to make sure that the select board was aware of the changes that were coming up on january first <hes> because glebelands and the complications that those have posed in property transfers <hes> it's an issue that this like morton fair has dealt with in the past and when i came into my position about a year and a half ago one of the first topics out of meeting that i was sitting in on was how do we release these glebelands because what it does is it makes it more complicated for people to sell or buy a home in when this is discovered <hes> indeed so people are trying to come to live in our town or whoever taxpayers in our town are now facing this further administrative complication application the costs that go along with it and there has not been a tremendous amount of interest from the governing body in fairfax to maintain them because of location and so in in fairfax is the picture these these pieces of property that were set aside way back in the you know a couple couple hundred hundred years ago or more <hes> as being <hes> pretty near the like. The center of the village is that is that a good estimation. I'd say no. That's not necessarily julie. Okay so when you when we're talking about glebelands we have an old map from probably around eighteen hundred in our town clerk's office and that denotes where the glebelands are on take a different color a different shade and they are not necessarily in keeping with how the town has developed and grown a lot of them are out kind of in the middle of nowhere where there's not a lot love interest and infrastructure right there so when they were set aside initially were they thought to be okay. This is where you know the the local minister will have. I'm a farm or something or is this you know or would lot <hes> wha- told me it would walk me through the thinking that went into setting these these lanes aside in the first place garin what would what do you know what that well at that. I think that the original thinking was that the leases says from those lands would support the school or the ministry but not necessarily that the school would be located on that piece of property pretty okay so in some cases. They're quite remote for for instance university of vermont which <hes> got exempted from this this bill <hes> owns a lot of lease lands. Apparently they owned part of mount mansfield. They have actually not they're. They're glebelands some time ago but there are pretty remote lands that are lease are at least lands and so the the <hes> maybe <hes> the idea was more that the the school or the church or in this case the university of vermont would effectively act as a landlord must most and least the land get some income from it it was that the idea yeah pretty much yeah okay yeah <hes> and and so give back to fairfax <hes> bridal chef the town manager in fairfax you have some land in fairfax which is <hes> was set aside as a as a place where what the local minister get some income by renting this land out to somebody or how would that work yes back originally the leases would go to support the local ministry or the <hes> the <hes> the parson of the time <hes> as karen said with the changes <hes> with the constitution <hes> the ownership then defer to the state which gave it to the municipality forty and with the separation of church and state all those funds would go into trust for schools <hes> but the amounts of those leases were pretty minuscule in today's today's <hes> by today's rates your dollar so i'm so you spend more administratively in actually collecting the fees at lisa's then you do in and the actual value that it's worth so a lot of municipalities have not collected leases for years because you're taxing land in in the case in fairfax where people live pretty much just forgotten that these lands word especially set aside and and <hes> <hes> gone ahead and the sold off properties and built houses there learned so on yeah for the most part oftentimes we're not aware of the lease lands we have until it comes up in a d transfer and that's part of the problem we have here in doing a full full inventory. We'd probably expand time and cost and really denoting. We're all these lands are that i don't think the your normal resident taxpayer would think was a wise investment especially somebody who would always be told hey the town's your own your property exactly that would be kind of knowing letter to get in the mail i would think but the interest in your own interest in your property et cetera so hey we're gonna take a brief break for c._b._s. News at the bottom of the hour a couple more arrest sponsors talk a little bit more about these lease lands glebelands must be done about him when we return with our guest scaring order rather you cities and towns and brando doce town manager in fairfax. We'll be back folks. I wish i had a dollar for every compliment. I get about selection upstairs at the warren store. The season's collection boasts country casual clothing for men and women dresses for summer weddings and events baby clothing from sue chano and doodle pants and fairtrade jewelry from around the world. I'm excited about a new line of pottery from londonderry vermont also illuminated paper stars for outdoor fun. It's a great day trip to warn village comfort lunch on the deck upstairs for some unique retail therapy fund fund funky and friendly and almost world famous. It's the dave ramsey show on w. e. v. we are back continuing our conversation about glebelands or lease land. These are these are pieces of property set aside by towns <hes> way back in the eighteenth early nineteenth centuries in vermont as the state it was being settled by europeans and the <hes> <hes> the cleveland's were set aside to basically generate great lease income for local church or sometimes local school and the <hes> <hes> and they're now still technically owned by <hes> the the towns and you know or at least the towns have an interest in them and that's creating some land <hes> some some title issues as people transfer orlando try to sell some real estate and somebody comes along or they go to the land records and they discover gee whiz. The town has an interest in this property. Here was that mean for the seller around the buyer of the property that when they thought they might have clear title and it turns out they don't so <hes> some changes upcoming towns in terms of how they administer these lands most those towns are looking to basically get rid of them from what i understand and my guest <hes> here this morning to talk with us about this karen horn of the league of cities and towns has has been following this issue statewide and at the state house in montpellier for the the the league brad chef is the town manager of fairfax up in franklin county <hes> one of the many places in vermont where local officials have been discussing this issue and so i i really appreciate the the two guests coming in to talk with us about it and and <hes> so brad in in fairfax <hes> tell me about the glebelands there how many acres and how far out of town are they in and <hes> who owns them and how many businesses or houses on there that are buying for for clear title and so on well. That's a fun question because we don't really know the answer to all these are clearly marked but they were initially designated in hundred acre parcels that were divvied up when the town was first being chartered so with the subdivisions that have taken place and the property transfers. They haven't been tracked so easily so so it's you can't just open a book and look where these glebelands exist. We have maps and what you'd have to do is go search. The title transfers in the deeds needs through all transfers back through time to really delineate where the glebelands are. We know they exist but i'm sure there are some that we've lost. Track of and people are living. They don't no no is leased land and so the the the solution to this problem is what well thankfully legislature has given us an option to release use the interests in these lands. Now doesn't work for municipalities are all bodies the same way but in fairfax last i'd say seven to ten years have been a number of property transfers that have been complicated by the fact that they involve lease lands and our board has been very happy to sign the quick claim deed and release release its interests in the land to the the people have been paying taxes on while they've been living there and make that property transfer a little bit easier and for the most part that i think is the that's the pulse of our community we don't have great interest in these pieces of property and very happily release them to the people that have been living on them it kind of makes sense because otherwise people might be in peru but if a nasty surprise and i that's not a never a happy thing so two four four one seven seven seven is our local number here in waterbury one eight seven seven to nine one eight two five five and <hes> folks out there. If you have questions at least lands glebelands in proper in towns <hes> around vermont and what your local communities might be doing with them. <hes> give us a call. Let us know what you're hearing and seeing your communities about these <hes> these lands and and <hes> is your local town giving them up <hes> are you in agreement with that. You think the town shooter or should the town maintained an interest and maybe i dunno reinstate these claims and get some income off land or something and and lower your tax rate. There's any chance of that happening any work aaron i. I don't know that that would make a lot of difference that the rent says brad set on on these lands were like a dollar year or or a nickel month or something like that so interestingly the issues started started in chilton county around a couple of pretty notorious instances and it hadn't really reached the rest west of the state when this legislation was proposed so we're really recommending two towns that you take time and and talk to a town your town attorney and get an assessment of what's out there in terms of lease lands the if you've had a property property transaction recently you know that the old surveys from the eighteen hundreds or not that accurate they're like from the stonewall to the big big maple tree on the corner down the hill and and so there's not really an accurate depiction of where the lease land sar and you might want to take some time at least eastone those parcels that you think you might have been an abiding interest and and really do your homework before you decide to throw everything up i love the ones eight goes down to the brooklyn and the burqas moved from the right original course and so on and so cut down there you go for another another famous problem in these old old land records and so talking caring about this legislation a little bit at set a deadline right yeah it set a deadline of january one twenty twenty which is this coming january hard to believe and <hes> towns need to to if towns take no action their rights to lease lands will be extinguished automatically they can decide to retain some leased lands in advance of that date or they can decide they can take affirmative action not to throw up the leases and then subsequently they could do an assessment and decide which leases are worth retaining in which leases he says should be returned to the underlying property owners <hes> so they could sort of extend their deadline a little bit but they need to act affirmatively to do that. I see okay and are there any towns in which i mean what's the pattern here i it sounds like most towns saying we want fewer administrative headaches. There's no real prospect of getting income from these two hundred year old leases that charges a dollar a year so let's write it all off other. Any townsend are saying something different from that. I think really most towns are saying lease lands. Well wait. What do we have to do yeah because it's a new issue. I don't know if you recall the ancient roads issue several years ago where towns had just sas what were there the ancient they call them ancient roads that existed like old trails and stuff and where did they own rights of way. It's a similar sort of issue so where it'd be nice to know exactly what you're getting rid of for you do it yeah. It's gotta make you nervous a a little bit of a okay. I'm giving up my lease rights and what just that phrase along it would make a lot of people pause and say what am i doing. And why and is this really what i need to do. And is there another alternative. I should consider etc i do of course we don't talk to every town every week so i'm not exactly sure what everybody's doing. I think that there's some towns that are starting to assess that issue now and <hes> wins legislation passed. They've had a while to work on this now right amongst other things that they're working okay passed in twenty eighteen so in the regular twenty eighteen sessions so the end of june twenty eighteen so really that's not a lot of time i mean essentially louis they had a year and a half or they have a year and a half the total time period to try to figure this stuff out and that's that right it could be if you wanted to do an accurate inventory of all your lease lands that would not be a lot of time in which do it <hes> this accurate inventory though it sounds like it's harder than might be imagined because it it's a process where you basically are going to be taking your land records and sort of what superimposing them on some. I'm ninety nine eighteenth century map right pretty much yeah. Take your personal data and put it on on that map now <hes> bread dough chefs the manager in fairfax. Is anybody in fairfax taking this view that hey wait. A town really ought to think hard before it gives up. Its interest kristen these lands. I don't want to speak for everybody but generally no <hes> the big role glebelands have played has been complicating property transfers <hes> <hes> our board has been eager to get rid of them and that's why this legislation is helpful to municipalities especially when they're not we don't have the infrastructure capacity pasadena put all this time into inventory these lands in the past we would have had to act to release the land and now giving being the changing that so that the vote has to be affirmative to keep that makes it easier for small municipalities that don't have the huge legal team to kind of get rid of these lander for. I don't want to speak for all towns from any towns of pre- pretty meaningless interests yeah. Now these leases is that you'd talk. We've talked about being worth dollar years something <hes> is there any way they could be updated. I mean could the town say okay. We want to go back to leasing this property <hes> <hes> and <hes> i dunno. Let's say it's under <hes> shopping mall or something in you. Go to the mall owner and say hey guess what we're charging your rent. I think i think i might be mistaken here but i think that the lease the rents are set in the original <hes> leasing documents so they you can't be so they can't be amended. There was some discussion of that in the legislature but i don't think that's an option. It's internet if you think differently differently now. That's my understanding that if anybody tried that very quickly lead to some litigation. I think you're right. I think the the whoever's sitting on that property right now would be quickly hiring a lawyer and saying hey let's <hes> let's fight this out because obviously there's a new a new expense people weren't expecting the end <hes> <hes> tell me about the <hes> the the the downside of just if we were to leave this alone are these properties. Can they a be sold or is this cloud on title that prevents the property actually getting financing from from a new owner for a new owner and that sort of thing my understanding is that these these leases exist in perpetuity so the lease can transfer to you know so the same owner in eighteen hundred is not still the owner of that least parcel the lease has traveled with the property to different owners but what's happening now especially with <hes> title attorneys you know really really sharpen their pencils cels and making sure they don't they don't miss anything is they're. Finding that of karen is selling me her home but she actually has a lease on that land. She doesn't only entire thing in the town has an interest in that so for that deal to go through the town has to either release that claim that has to be added into it just an administrative st incumbants. It costs folks more in their process. Either getting you know the quick claim deed done or and working this paperwork. Some people miss closing dates because this takes time and again when you're getting municipal bureaucracy involved things are procedural delay things in if things aren't all lined up it can delay away a quite a bit towns required to give some kind of public notice under stuff when they have to do a quick claim to eat or has that process work karen. I think that for the most part they they just quit claimed the the interest in the property <hes> but they probably make that decision position in a select board meeting which is an open meeting the the other consideration is <hes> that people have been paying taxes on the fair market value of these properties and so then at some point to realize that the town which has been taxing you <hes> owns a a piece of that in interest in the property that can be a little disconcerting as well <hes> yeah in fact. I would think i would think that the town in that situation might be feeling a little chagrined about trying to suddenly exercise. They're they're interested in any way because <hes> especially i mean i i mean you you you could have had it split up in a way that maybe the taxes were lower for a long time because there was a there there was a perception of this diminished value but that's not the case in in at least the vast majority of instances of towns the the whole issue issue had was so back in history that people didn't realize that there were these lease holdings and there and there wasn't any accurate inventory in that's one of the one of the problems right now is that if you want to get an accurate inventory is going to take some time and some money to do that and is is it worth it to you or your property owners and taxpayers and it's not easy. I actually tried to research a piece of property a few years ago <hes> in the mafia city records and <hes> you know you get these giant books off the shelf and open them up and they were written in in eighteen ten script ripped and maybe he's really don't have allergies when the dust comes comes flying off the bulk and and and and hopefully a better eyesight than i have in terms of actually reading the faded a eighteenth century script or whatever it is i'll tell you it is <hes> <hes> that title searching land land record searching process can be a headache. Yes handed history right there in front of you. That's true too. I mean there is there is kind of wow. This is kinda interesting somebody here <hes> they. They must have hired the person with the best handwriting in writing in town because it's all right flat on the online book and and imperfect imperfect script that <hes> somebody learning grammar school way back in the day and and and i mean there's a lot of work there to admire but it's also a bit of a chore for somebody who's coming in in there and and as a lot a lot of i always get sucked right in when i get into those books like oh look at that piece of property what happened authentic that and who owned yeah right an occasion or occasionally you'll see a family name they were members of the family or descendents still live in town and that sort of i mean you can start to get excited about that stuff as well so it's pretty interesting folks to four four one seven seven sounds local number here in waterbury one eight seven seven two nine one eight two five five any property owners out there in w._d. E._v. listener land who have run into this issue when when you get somebody to title search on the property you're trying to buy or that you did by and <hes> and they comes up and says hey guess what the town still has an ownership interest in the land under your house <hes> anybody out there in that category and i also wanted to add to that further the complications of this you'd mentioned the the idea of the land being underneath at the mall and raising the rents any funds that are raised through these leases have to go into a trust so it's not that the town can take this money and then pay a road or do some improvements <hes> they go into trusts for what was prior was for the church and is now in schools just exists in a trust for that purpose okay so there's not the town doesn't have a lot of interest to try to recoup more money off these cleveland's because we wouldn't really be able to use it for the day to day operations that are existent in today's today's times so you're quite restricted in how the money can be used and and when when was it in history that it was determined that hey we can't set this aside for the turkey anymore because the because of the first amendment issue do we know beginning in seventeen ninety four after the american revolution legislation relation in vermont established the glebe in lease lands were vested in the state and the state granted the rights to the towns in which those land sleigh and then in eighteen eighteen o five legislation established a duty of the select board to lease out the land on a perpetual basis and use the resulting rents for school or supportive report of churches and then <hes> nineteen forty seven legislation allowed select boards conveyed lease lands to lease holder subject back to the perpetual lease or anyone else subject to the perpetual lease. The history is kind of complicated about it about at all so now and and there was even though the u._s. Constitution talked about separation of church and state <hes>. It took a wile for some of that news to get to vermont. It's still hasn't reached everybody in the country we kind of waxes and wanes a variety of fronts so yeah but no in this in this sense. I would think that there's there's nobody that that i've heard out there crying for more money to be sent to the local churches here in vermont from these lease lands. That's not something we're hearing right now right now. Now i don't do it. I i shouldn't even mention that. Is that what you're thinking. Dave go there that is that could be a <music> a whole nother dave graham chauffeur and you know always looking for new topics and controversies do put on the air here so i'm waiting for waiting for the churches out there to call in and say hey hey dave you know we we we we need some money and if the towns is supposed to be raising money for us in our let's say let's have it out here so that that could be <hes> no but that's probably not anything. That's going to be happening anytime soon. Because it's very well established in american law for at least i would think more than a century now the couple constitution the constitution the congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof and it's the establishment. It's been clause that there'd be very beginning of the first amendment which talks about how <hes> basically the government doesn't have has no interest in religion really has no you know <hes> has a lot of tolerance for religion. That's the that's the you know you're not going to prohibit the free exercise thereof <hes> but but the free exercise clause is offset by the establishment clause saying that you're not gonna all you're also gonna support churches and you're not going to provide them. Any kind of financial assistance including including income from some lease that is <hes> is still on the books after a couple of hundred years so that's the that's the situation there right now folks the <hes> <hes> <hes> vermont cities and towns of course follows a whole range of municipal issues at the state house is is an organization representing. All of the reminds cities towns writer or all of them members karen yeah off two hundred forty six cities and towns. Wow that's <hes> that's quite a quite club and the and one of them of course i'm sure the town of fairfax is that right brad though chef yes it is and so the <hes> when when issues like this come up do you do you guys talk to me a little bit about the process here you're talking about. These things and i mean brad. I gotta you can call kearns office and say we questioned about x. and and <hes> would would how does that all work out yeah absolutely <hes> the l._c._d. Provides some great municipal assistance when we have questions that we don't know the answers to legal or otherwise they they are there to support us and i absolutely bother them on a frequent basis when i have questions because admittedly there's a lot to learn and also you know there's there's some good message boards where <hes> town administrators and managers can communicate with one another and this this topic in particular has come up on those well. What do we do with these glebelands. How do we do this and we can thrive around and of course can't v. l. c. T. and karen involved to help us along the way we're so. Where's fairfax in the process right now. Has there been a vote of the borders selectmen. Is there a one or the select board should say. Is there one coming up. <hes> was the process like they're no. I came into my position. One of the topics was how do we get rid of these lands because they're a complication and they're they're causing residents difficulty in their property transfers. <hes> this legislation allows you know by our non on action if we don't take action because we're probably not going to put the expense of doing a full inventory of all our potential lease lands <hes>. We'll probably release release them. I don't want to speak for the board with that vote. We're they're not aiming to take a vote at this point to affirmatively keep them nor to release them. I think we'll do a little bit more research with some legal guidance to make making the right choices but based on the maps that we have the glebelands that exist do not appear to be in areas of high interest for the town so i imagine that they will be released by the by the date set more than one decision. What what percentage of the land mass of the town is is tied up in this in this way way. I wouldn't be able to give you an accurate depiction of that especially because we haven't been able to keep track through the years of how much there is and the care go good well. I was just going to say that it is interesting that it took legislation to provide tounsi authority to release these lands and maybe a conversation for another day but we're what's called dillon's rule states so we can municipalities can only do those things that the legislature slater specifically gives them permission to do so you end up going to the state house on all manner of issues that then then in other states at town might be able to address on their own without getting that legislative blessing if you will those states are the home role model meaning that municipalities actually have more authority over this kind of stuff in a wide range of other issues really than they do in vermont right right so in in in home rule states a town can do what it feels is appropriate for its citizens unless the legislature tells also no and in vermont and other dillon's rule states. You can only do something different innovative avenue if the legislature affirmatively says yes. I'm curious to ask municipal official whether dillon's rule or or home rule it might be preferable and gee whiz one right in the room with us right now brad doshi tau manager of the town of fairfax. What do you like better home rule or dillon's rule. I think most muniz municipal officials would opt for home role if they ever given the menu of options <hes> because it gives you a little bit more freedom yep. It's definitely a spectrum <hes> <hes> across the country very strong home rule states to sort of <hes> vermont in alabama but there's there's you know legislation could give some self-governance authority to towns you know there's a real range of possibilities their topic perhaps for another edition of the dave ramsey show but as for this one it's about over we're coming up to the top of the hour. I really wanna thank my guest care and horn of the vermont league league of cities and towns and brad dough. Chef is the town manager in fairfax vermont franklin county. Thank the both of you for coming into the studio this morning. Thanks so much for interesting conversation. I wish resolving all of this and getting getting this headache around. It sounds like a little bit about oh. Gee what we do here. That's about it for the day. Graham show on on this <hes> monday morning august twenty six thousand nineteen. Thanks so much for listening folks when we're back with another edition of our program tomorrow. Meanwhile stay tuned for bill sair common sense radio c._e._o. And have a great day everybody.

vermont vermont ryan mcdevitt bernie sanders tim ryan darcy carter china united states nasa president medicare sanders university of vermont california elizabeth warren south carolina sanders sanders dave ramsey dave
King Of The Ring '98 (Hell In A Cell: Mankind vs. Undertaker)

The Jim Ross Report

2:32:57 hr | 1 year ago

King Of The Ring '98 (Hell In A Cell: Mankind vs. Undertaker)

"Aren't everybody? Today's episode of grill JR is brought to you by all elite wrestling's all out. I can't believe that the boys are putting the gang back together at the Sears centre, but it's happening it's going down August thirty first you don't wanna miss it, but you can be there in person, but you better hurry. And cruise over to pick up tickets tomorrow at eleven central noon eastern, tickets are going on sale, and they're gonna go fast aren't the JR, absolutely folks, June fourteenth, you defending only listen to this show, we're recording. This is Thursday, so digs going to sell a Friday June fourteenth. They're not gonna last long. I don't think this card, you know, all the adding all these great, Jon Moxley, and they'll be more this should be a hell of a card, and I really excited about this because I did get to chance to call the last events Chicago because I was being employed with another company more this. I'm Jack pumped up for this, you know. No, they're going to bust their ass. You know, it's going to be a great card. And, you know, you can't get in, if you don't have a ticket, that's Memorial Day weekend, everybody. And of course, there's another little bit going along side that I'm excited about as well Conrad call star cash three. Yeah. That's exactly right. All out a force to be headlined by hangman page and Chris Jericho the winner of that is going to walk out. Some new hardware that beautiful Awa world championship will be around their waists tickets are going to go fast guys, even faster tickets up tomorrow and eleven AM central at eighty w Tex dot com. That's June fourteenth at eleven central noon eastern, a e w TI x dot com where you need to go now I know what you're thinking. I'm going to miss a ticket. I missed the ticket last year. There's all these people in the waiting room. We couldn't make it we'll go early or if you want to get a leg up, I don't even know that, you know, this JR star cast actually has bundles with e w ticks right now. She can get all out tickets right now. With your star cast, platinum or gold bracelet over at stark. Ask dot com. So if you want to secure your tickets tonight, by all means, go ahead. They're available right now and you can pick them up at stark asked dot com. S T. A R, R, C, A, S, T dot com as part of a bundle with your bracelet for star cast. But if you're not in the mood for stark gas. Well shame on you, but you can still pick up your tickets tomorrow. At noon eastern at AWS fix. That's eighty WTI x dot com, but don't wait fee there early Awa ticks dot com or just go right now to stark. Ask dot com. And now let's get to the show. Hey, it's Conrad Thompson, and you're listening to grill JR with the man himself. Mr. Jim Ross. Gio must going on man. How are you? I'm good man couldn't be better. I'm happy to be we with you again. And I'm excited for folks to join us. We thank you guys for your, your loyalty and your support. And we're not disappointed. Our numbers have been great. We're making a dent in the what we want to do. So that's contributed. Conrad's at format is ideas. We're, we're having fun, so unique with, you know, I, I, I did a little baseball thing last Thursday, took a couple days off got home. And you know, then all of a sudden we realized it was the four year anniversary of dusty roads passing away. That's always a melancholy event or none of them. But melancholy occurrence for me 'cause I love the guy and we had such a great relationship for three decades. So but I know you got some good news regarding dusty. For us here next week. Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, we, we didn't really realize that that this was the anniversary week and, and upon seeing your tweet this way. I think caught a lot of people in the fields when you that you think about the dream everyday, and mess him and say, how to Jan. I said man, we got a call them audible so next week instead of covering king of the ring ninety four we'll push that off. We'll do that another time we're going to celebrate the life and memory of dusty Rhodes and normally we, we have a long career path, and, and we take a step by step, you know, just the facts, ma'am, sorta using the observer and we'll certainly do some of that next week, but I really want to just celebrate the good time to talk about the big moments that you guys shared because you're not somebody who worked with in a little while he spent decades with the man. Yeah. And we were not only he was so how he was so high on my work that I I'm brace that so much because. He was does. She was a guy that would give positive reinforcement, which was very unusual. And still is I it to this day within the pro wrestling business, you know, compliments are, are, are infrequent, a pattern, Niaz monsoon said, you remember now a pattern of back is only eighteen inches away, kicking the ass, and that's kind of the resting theory. So I, he was just a joy to work with so creative our production meetings for big show, last, maybe ten minutes, it gives me the drift, where he was headed. And then then we created it as we saw it, and he, he was one of my favorite broadcast partners. Was he the very best broadcast partner? Will I don't I don't save the very best. But he was he was Dan. Sure, good for somebody that said down to do the do the commentary Conrad, and he had Z things on his mind. Book the card it produced the show. And so, you know, I'm doing commentary was the joy of me and I go back to my pitchers. See a lot of stuff. United together. Just just rub Beck. So many great memories. And of course, we had our running battles secondary knocked-over the Oklahoma Texas game but she would always correct me and say, no, no sooner is the Texas. Oh you game. Okay. Whatever. So anyway, next week. We'll get fun show. Lots of good memories, Drake memories cry memories. Laughed at memories, just a man and company. John Wayne arresting to me. He was always come at John Wayne type character to me. And so, we'll talk about that, next week, Sudi great show. I'm excited about it. And I'll say, I'm having a lot of fun with this show everywhere. I look people are talking about the new podcast, even if he starts to do Google. Search for Jim Ross says name podcast is near the top of find myself at lunch this week and someone made the approach and said they love the podcast. And I sorta sought to have it assume that they were talking about Bruce Prichard or Bischoff, maybe even Tony shivani. But Nope, I told me that never missed an episode that you and I've done and can't wait till the next one and it's the talk of the wrestling world. Even got an Atta boy from Westwood Moines, that it's outperforming everything else in, in one of their biggest properties now and we appreciate you got support. And we hope that you'll let all of your friends know about the new format here on Jim Ross show, Brillon JR, and we're going to revisit one of the hits as they say king of the ring nineteen ninety eight we're gonna talk about everything that happened on this show, but this has got to be the most. I mean, this is the the the show where you have a call. That's probably the most quoted, I mean, it's been viral as they say, is this the most notable call you've ever had. You think? Yeah, yes. A most memorable because I get asked about it almost well, if I'm around wrestling fans, it's inevitable, if you and I were to cue night, we're going to do some QNA's going forces state shows. We've as we've talked about. I promise you, they'll be somebody in that audience. It will want to know something about that event in June. Nineteen ninety eight I I'm getting ready to board of plane. About six months ago, going someplace and I'm in the priority line. American priority line and to pre board. And this guy in his son sons fry twelve thirteen. They're standing right behind me and the dot that get the dad is immediately behind me. And so he's he gets real close to me. Right. And he says here east whispering, I think for a second, he's talking to this kid. He's talking to me, and he says, as God as my witness, he's broken and a half. So they, he commits to quoting, all these, these, these, these things, I said during that match of Foley and undertaker. Tell sell at the king of the ring, ninety eight so funny said something else, and I didn't I the kid the kid kind of flew out on my mind. I turn around you're gonna turn around the guy. It's okay, buddy. Look, I know you're fan. I appreciate it very much. But, you know you wish free my year. Don't look good. And so I was gonna tell him that. And so I turned around and, and the and the, the kid was not a starstruck as his dad be honest with you. He said, JR, we're sorry, follow Josh to the old man, who's a Senator, this mouth of debt. Ajar were sorry. My dad does this all the time at home. He quotes that match every day, some shape form or fashion and my mom hates it. That's the way your mom's got good taste. So anyway, you never know where you're gonna hear it. Right. And I you know, there's a, a friend of mine is the starting left tackle for the army's right Tekere lift echo for the Baltimore Ravens. Orlando Brown Orlando played here at OU coach Vaughn, Coatesville, beedon, bow, the great line coach. Who's my neighbor here in Norman and Orlando's one is some t shirts because there's a t shirt out at pro wrestling tease. It says. All those quotes are on there. And I think one of them was, you know, the they killed him or something like that he wanted to where he got three or four of those shirts to wear under shoulder pads. But that's kind of the name match and the quotes, kind of go beyond just the wrestling world just ticked up. And, and I know a lot of guys that I've met guys of ESPN FOX force, at what quote, quote them, and they're big timers type thing. So it just happened that, that those calls stuck and, you know, without a doubt, the most memorable night that I've, maybe I've ever had in one match the that did not involve a tragedy. It was a near tragedy, and Mick Foley avoided dodge, the bullet quite frankly we all did. But it was the most quoted thing and I can I recall in my career ever. Well, something we, we hope you don't recall is the last time you had insects inside your house flying around ruining your summer. I mean that's more annoying than bad barbecue, as JR would say, and we've got a solution for you. 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And Donald Trump is the safe silent and simple solution to household insect control. And this is something that I know you're using right now to JR in your love. Then, yeah, I, I you know, I built that outdoor kitchen last year here, my house, and is a fixture out there. You know, you, you just you gotta deal with you can't get rid of them, you can control it, but, you know, they're gonna come back, but when it come back, guess what you got waiting on them. I, I believe in this product. If you if you're outside much, do much grilling outside your family, or doing it family activities outside, and you're in your huddling air, your heating, or whatever this, you're gonna love this deal because it is odorless. It's safe and best Conrad said, folks, it actually works. We don't advertise anything on here that we don't. Source that we weren't endorsing thing that we don't believe in are used. And this is a this thing works. I promise you check it out. Donald Trump dot com, use that promo code JR time yourself some money, let's get to the money up today's episode the king of the ring 1998 went down on June twenty eighth at the civic arena, right there in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Of course, it was a sell-out just like almost everything else in nineteen ninety eight issue seventeen thousand eighty seven fans fifteen thousand five hundred and five of those were paying customers and I set an all-time city gay record of five hundred and thirty nine thousand six hundred and sixty bucks. But check this out nearly one hundred forty nine thousand in merchandise you know, when you hear about sorta wrestling hubs or hot beds, you hear about Chicago. You hear about New York you hear about Dallas here about Atlanta. You don't really hear me. You don't really hear about Pittsburgh. Then often why do you think that is? I mean, some of the all time greats who they're, you know, Bruno San Martino, Kurt angle, Shane Douglas, and even these days, Corey graves and Elias all from Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh has a reputation as being more of a wrestling town. Well, if we perceive that Pittsburgh is any, quote, unquote northeast of the United States, that the northeast the star of the northeast as far as resting as concerns, New York City. So I think maybe there was a little bit of being in that shadow of New York City as far as being considered a northeast city. But you you're right about the, the market sell, you know, Bruno San Martinos, there was Bruno, then there's everybody else was Bruno and there's everybody else. And, and, you know, Mick Foley got training there, but Dominic Ghanouchi those now the thing and a lot of the that we used to be a little territory hub there. You know, I don't know that Corey graze and. Elias belong, Saint conversation, Bruno just yet, but maybe they will someday open to, but I I liked it. And of course, Larry businesses of Bisco came out of there was Bruno's, protege ohi, Larry, Larry's that guy. JR come into your podcasts, and talk about Bruno Knoller. You can't he's dead. Well, I love Larry seriously. Good talent came out there. But it's like saying who's the greatest Yankee easy, Babe Ruth. Sure. So Bruno was Babe Ruth of wrestling, WWW, Pittsburgh, and anything else in northeast. So it was Bruno's town. And of course, my late watch Jan was raised their went to a shade or high school, graduated from high school. And she was, of course. My angel in. So I'm close to Pittsburgh, and I do still go to many brothers, every time I go to Pittsburgh, and, and then I take Lipitor, so I don't get my cholesterol crazy. But I, I love the host city good. That's it's just a great place. Great place in man. That crowd that night was was jacked. I watched the show last night, innocent. Tardy watched it again this morning. I enjoyed the whole damn presentation. But this verb is a special town and they rose to the occasion on that night. Indeed. They did. And you guys were experiencing rising gates. You know, we've talked about a year year how the business was changing from ninety four to ninety five ninety six ninety seven. But here from ninety seven to ninety eight it's incredible. Your average attendance in June of ninety seven is five thousand six hundred eighty seven a year later, come June of ninety eight. We're up sixty eight percent or at nine thousand five hundred sixty eight and that's your average attendance. Your average gay is actually up ninety two percent you go from ninety three thousand change in June of ninety seven to over one hundred seventy nine thousand dollars in June of ninety eight and you're selling out. Forty six percent of your house shows here, the prior year, you're selling out less than six percent ratings. Of course, their way up to the tide is turned by the summer of ninety eight year now beating the CW in, in almost every category television ratings, no exception there in June of ninety seven. You were getting a one point seven here. You're later, you're. Fifty eight percent. You're getting a two point seven drastic drastic improvement across the board. We talked a little bit about ninety seven last week. When we cover king of the ring, and we were talking about, you know, the way the, the, the mood was in the office, that, hey, we're at least talking about bankruptcy. It's been discussed because things are tight a year later. It's a new business as a not absolutely. Yeah. The that attitude air talent really connected with their audience, and they all had they all had distinct and exclusive features of benefits to sell, they knew how to get themselves over and how to identify into contact connect with the audience and the other thing that and I think this is we go through the show today, and the raw after that, so forth before, and after you can see the process of needing to make heels and because that's an issue right now. You know. Say talking about WW even Tom Tom belt where they don't know how to make a baby face. I don't know that that's the accurate. But I will say that there's a case could be made that they're not real proficient right now in developing villains and villas cannot be perpetuated in grown with fifty fifty booking. Nope. That'd be face or heel can, so we were in the process of really developing heels because we had the baby face situation, pretty well under control. Austin was getting over. Awesome was coming bigger than life. And they also knew that we had, we were one turn away from having one a and one b because rock was young hungry on that roster as well. So the baby fae side of this whole equation was pretty damn solid, and they weren't the only two but that was they were the main horses in that respect. Undertaker. Hotmail? It's ninety eight was, you know, he was he was big time as he is. You know, we'll be forever. So the heels issue that's what we did. And that was an interesting part about this whole. The show today is going to be about focusing on making some heels, but quite frankly Conrad the, the best he'll, we had in that you're not favorite time was Vince. I'm glad that because I feel like that's sort of a footnote in history. Because everybody talks about the rise of Steve Austin, but Steve Austin had to have somebody, you know, to oppose and then opposition has never been stronger than with Mr McMahon character. You know, when you look at the success of ninety eight you know, most people would attribute this massive jump in the rise of Steve Austin, I think, maybe what gets lost is the success, you know, he had to have somebody to dance with, and that's Mr McMahon, but also the writing, and it was a combination of you. You had the super baby face because you had the super he'll, and the writing was was perfect. It was exactly what the fans wanted at the time D think we'll ever see that. I mean, everything clicking on all cylinders with the top programme because that really lifted the whole company, the McMahon Austin few did it not. Absolutely. And it it eventually led to the company going public the success of stone cold the rock, the whole crew getting over all being very, very competitive with each other. The locker room was not a martial law environment, but it was a very competitive environment. And it also is a situation where the top guys had no issues conversing with the boss, and I don't know how how that plays out today in their in their company. But, you know, the boss, everybody else does a lot of work and everybody else works hard. But then is always going to be the guy until he's no longer with us. Scott forbid. But that's the whole deal that crew starting with taker to all those guys, they all had opened order vists, he'll say everybody's going to open door to him. And I think that's pretty much true. But they took advantage of develop a report with Vince or they could oak, they could openly, communicate remember, see the old man converse don't confront, and that's kind of what those guys figured out and so law this creativity, not, not the creator guys. But a lot of creativity was the talisman sales coming up with ideas to perpetuate their persona because nobody knew there, persona better than they did. So it was really a unique thing, but this never should always get major credit major props for this for the attitude era success, and then, then obviously leading WWE as an administrator and owner. And then as a tough he'll to becoming public. Company and one hundred sixty million dollar feel talk to me a little bit about Vince Russo. We haven't spent a lot of times, talking about him here on the show. But I'd be remiss if we didn't talk about, you know, perhaps his influence was a critical part of the ingredient, because when I tried to put over the writing he pivoted a little bit back to well it was the talent to was it Russo who forged a relationship with some of these guys. And that's what made the writing better or was it going to happen with, with our so no, I think Rousselot a big part to play in that toll era. You know. And he we're where we wanted to go be more bold to, to have that attitude to be a T V fourteen product, which is a, a big change in the climate in WWE. You need special, you know, special group, people unique personalities to get that done. And he, he did that Roussin. That was him. He was a big fan of Howard Stern. You know, outrageous over the top, you know, overzealous stuff at time to time and this McMahon was the guy that real Russo back in to give some as a put a bitten his mouth a little bit. But he pretty much letting go, but Rousseau a smart enough to know that you're not gonna get all these ideas that you have in her head through the court system here. If you don't have the judge in your pocket, which is Vance and the key witnesses to testify for you. Meaning the talent. So he listened to the talent that's smart for him. And I think Russo got in trouble more seemingly. I don't know because I didn't work with them fast WWE. He got more trouble when he when he started being a little bit more autonomous and didn't have that filter and didn't maybe he didn't have the same report with talents and WCW at TNA were every went after that. That's just my speculation. But to say the Russo did not have a major hand in creativity at during that era would be ally, and that's not my style. Well, so, you know, we've had our differences, philosophically. We had them, then if we work together fry them in now we just have a different view. Wrestling should be. But that doesn't make him wrong. It doesn't make me right? It just makes us different opinion. But he's a he was a key cog in that whole scenario. Let's talk a little bit about the countersuit that comes down here in late may WCW is gonna follow also, I guess, on may eighteenth, and they're trying to essentially MIR the lawsuit that you guys brought against hubby CW in ninety six of course, back then you were suing saying that, you know, the razor in diesel characters were your property, and Kevin Nash and Scott hall were certainly implying or inferring or you know, confusing the audience by positioning themselves, as outsiders, titan employees. So that's the crux of the lawsuit ninety six and now WCW is going to countersue here, and they're going to say that because you guys have shown the CNN center when you guys were doing an invasion, angle that, that they have similar damages, and they've also claimed that, you know, you're showing clips of RIC flair and hulk HOGAN. And Roddy piper, and Randy savage talk to me a little bit about when this lawsuit comes in how Vince response and how mcdevitt response. Well, the, the name the key thing there, missing, Jerry mcdevitt, another Pittsburgh. Ironically, we're talking about Kingery ninety eight inch Pittsburgh. We have mcdavid and they didn't. That's a big difference. That's a big leg up for WWE events. I looked at that suit, essentially as a nuisance suit Conrad. Right. I never thought had any basis to move very far up the court system. I didn't see any judges or any in the courts spending a lot of time on these arguments. And if we had made the same arguments, I would say the same thing they seem to be nuisance suits. They got a little publicity. I don't know help anybody publicity wise. But I thought all along it meant nothing. I'm remember having a couple of meetings with Vincent about it. You know, we, we've called off the dogs and some of the things the hotline on air mentions cetera et cetera. But I don't know of anybody there that when we did the billionaire, Ted skits him by endorsed, it the move just the sycophants there. There's always those hanging around, but I don't some those guys they would say, yes, they will say shit. They had a mouthful with motto. But the bottom line is it, it was wasted time, did nothing didn't increase ratings didn't do anything positive bestir this shit in made. No sense. So I felt the same thing this lawsuit. The counter lawsuit is almost like okay we'll show you got lawyers to buy, God, we got more than you do. Okay, good. It's kind of fun too, because, you know, whereas you guys were climbing, hey, you're, you're sorta, making Scott hall, look and pretend and talk like razor Ramon. And they try to sue for the same thing saying, well you've done that with XBox because that is a carbon copy of six pack with the interview. Oh, and he's not as old one, two, three kid persona. I do wanna mention we had Jerry mcdevitt, and as a special guest for live something to wrestle in Pittsburgh last year or you before. And as he was a cast. I couldn't believe that this was the line. He said, yeah. As a result of that, lawsuit, eventually WCW settled with us, and gave us two million bucks and a few years later, we use this. Same two million dollars to buy their company. Just tremendous. Oh man. He ate. He's, he's the best. Man. I went to his wedding Jannine. I did. You know, we're great, great France still great friends, Jerry. I can tell you this man. If if I were ever in bad trouble. And I needed to the I mean a bad ass. M M F, as far as the lawyer, he's the guy he's the smartest muster TJ. He's got great street smarts, and amazingly high Q and boy, he's done. Great work for WWE and made his firm and himself a fortune off of the services provided event. So, yeah, that's funny. Starts out went to they got to ma'am bucks. What's in the in the big scheme, how much money is that a lot of money to guys like me? And you but those billionaires these big corporations is not so much. And then, that's what WWE paid for the entire WCW library. Two million dollars that to me was one of the great steals. Quick quotes that I've ever been a part of in the business. Mcdevitt, you know, as a sidebar here, how much of unsung hero, see the WBZ success d- think I don't think history really talks about him in that regard the talk about him when it's time to get somebody out of trouble or whatever, but really, I mean, had nine heart not gotten in trouble that one time and they needed an attorney to sort of, you know, right? The ship WBZ's path may have looked a little differently. I mean they had an ace in the hole with him for decades. Oh, yeah. He's major player major major player. I remember going to a hotel and New York City to prepare prepared me for a my testimony in the Nicole bass lawsuit, and he was he's genius. Like when I was an all listen to him. You know, here's how you present this. And certain words you do. Use certain words you don't use you know be sustained which I have a hard time doing is fancier testify, but he was he's amazing. Man. I don't know. I never met another attorney this. I mean he let's other tourneys there in all of him. I mean, he's he's got a national reputation as one of the best lawyers in America this no exaggeration. Wrestles Feek, this sum. Bitches really, really good. And so he, he was, he's, he's, he's almost he bailed out, but he's defendant company honorably and thoroughly and successfully. For many. Many years, there's no way the law those victories, and the progress of the WW brand would have been s quick, or maybe even happened as much Jerry mcdevitt had not been there as the head of the legal side. Let's keep it moving here. And let's talk a little bit about TSN's off the record to Winnipeg sun would run an article making fun of the fact that Steve Austin's appearance on that TSN show true, the largest audience in the history of the show. I don't know why they would poke fun at that. It's great success and other feather in the cap for WWF at the time, but you guys had a long, standing relationship with them, Bret Hart was on Vince McMahon was on it. What was the relationship with TSN and off the record and wanted the WWE allow them so much access, and talk to us about Landsberg guy? We don't hear about anymore. Michael Lansford was the host that show. Michael's up a big advocate of mental health. He's suffer from depression over the years. He's been very transfer in his issues. He stopped a lot of people. He still does good dude I was on his show couple times up, there off the record in. He was he asked the question that you knew the fans would want answers to he was very well prepared. But I think the TSN that, that was one of TSN's favourite show says one of their their their their personal favorites. They're on their network and at the time not mistaken, we were on that network with wrestling with rod so forth. Right. So it was a kind of a, you know, just cooperating with the network that where you're on there and they, they, they always listened, our guest cost just as you mentioned. They, they, they do ratings. It was it was a big number deal. So but it was a good thing for us. And there was a positive thing. Michael was not there to butcheries. Unlike the, the idiots at the Winnipeg sun, we're doing on that day. What the hell would they say something? You're right. Why would you say something like that? Unless you're weak, you're insecure and you're nuts with fit into fucking thimble. That's what those guys are. Because why would you suggest that WWE? Getting these great numbers as a joke. I guarantee you TSN didn't think it was a joke. Nope. They loved it. And so that's just another example. You know it's almost like fat shaming, or any other prejudice. You know, all those wrestling people. Well, yeah, we're rushing table. Or do you live? So I used to guys these reporters ice I live actually full through the week on Uranus, what I I commute and I'm here on the weekends to wrestling. You asshole. I love you for that. Let's talk about the junkyard dog. Unfortunately, we lost him on June second. He passed away way too early. Just forty five years old. I'd be remiss if I didn't bring them up to you. Of course you had a long history with the dog. What's your favorite junkyard dog store? You can share with us that you haven't shared on a show before. Oh boy. Silvester was a really Sylvester ritter's, real name was, whether he was a creation of, of cowboy Bill watts and Ernie Ladd other bookers helped him. Buck robes of big influence, and J y de growth cowboy was number one, because he saw what he had there. He had a black superman who looked like a Greek God at the time was j y d- a great wrestler. No absolutely not. But he had unlimited charisma and he could sell tickets on the Mike. His verbal skills or base basic straightforward, but he spoke with such conviction, and the sparkle in his eye that you couldn't help but not believe he was telling you the truth. If you said, I'm coming to New Orleans to whip butcheries asked you better believe he serious about coming to New Orleans twit butcheries ass. I used to travel a lot with a T. We anderson. So peewee Anderson is a mention was J wadis driver. And basically he was J dis babysitter. You know, Silvester tortoise latter days WW missile had a little issues like the cocaine did do that Mr. Lincoln. He's elected rugs and then any luck to smoke weed now not, not guard smoking, too, we, she don't new sure sale wrote need to go down that cocaine trail. So we would carry a great, big moneybag like you get the old school. Get a canvas bag. You'd get up to at the Bank, and it had nothing ended mcquarters. So it was like carrying around, you know, a lead ball and the quarters were there because at two or three o'clock in the morning. When j y d- would get the munchies. He's sent peewee down the hall to the to the to the, the soda machine or the candy machine in the hotel. Nothing was open it ain't like today where he'd call, you know, ubereats bringing stuff over to you, not that way. So that was the, the DOT. We always cared that bit great big bag and on OBE Caborn found out about it. And so he got a few. He's asked you said, you know, you can't be him Hershey's chocolate and all this other stuff that three o'clock in the morning. He's getting fat is getting out of shape, and, you know, and he was, he was, but he have more, charisma. There was a situation Conrad down there in new orders at times Vicki as Debbie paper there. They ran a contest. Meaning many years ago, the most famous athlete in Louisiana, and it came down to the everybody thought it was going to come down to Pistol, Pete mayor vich, great basketball player who played LSU and an MBA for years. And Archie manning, the father, Peyton Manning. And in ally. And other is name is so anyhow in the winter was junkyard dog. So if you go to lose Yana and you beat the quarterback of the NFL team, you'd be the starting point guard of the basketball team. I was saying my friend, you're over. So. Jay Wadi was definitely over that music, you know, it'd be great now because we came out defending royalty, so that Queen song. Another one bites the dust, and that was his music. And Manley heard that music who going to be dead dog. Nobody going to be dead dog. So they loved him man who, DAT, who dead. I heard the who DAT long before with which wa de long before. I heard it for the saints be honest with you who DAT, who Des going to be dead dog. Nobody going to be dead dog that kind hit people loved him. He gave impoverish people, whether they're black or white hope, because he would talk about his humble upbringings, and he, they could relate to him. And they saw him being successful big chains round his neck and nice big rings. You know. And so it was just a he was he was a once in a lifetime talent. I don't think there's ever been an African American talent. On his level before. Or since at one time he was as hot as anybody. And I can tell you that he was printing money when he went to W W F on. He had the first African American action figures, I recall so select crazy. So it's just a shame man that he, he, he died with hardly anything he fell asleep. Either coming home or going to his daughter's graduation. And when we when j Wadi was inducted into the WWE hall of fame, I, I made sure that we reached out to his daughter, and we had, we had to get fleece, and detectives or something like that. The finder. 'cause she really off the grid. She wasn't, you know, arresting, you know, she wouldn't try to get into business or anything, but he had ruled he's coming. He is royalties. That's one thing about the WWE you get the, the rolling programs pretty down solid. And so he had money's money's there. Crude for j y de that went to is next of kin which would be on his daughter. So she was there when he went the hall of fame, but he was a classic dude, man. Great heart net. Not of malicious bone is body. Really not. But he was his own worst enemy in, but he was lovable guy. He really was. And but I'll tell you gone rallying around a lot of guys Austen's and rocks and takers and dusty Rhodes and RIC flair's. At one point in time, there was nobody moreover with the his fan base. Then jump Clark junkyard dog. Nobody. Let's keep it moving here. And let's talk a little bit about the June fifth show, Madison Square Garden on top at Steve Austin, and the undertaker teaming up the take on Kane and mankind. It's of course, a sell out nineteen thousand five hundred and six fans sixteen thousand eight hundred and fourteen of them were paying three hundred and ninety one thousand five hundred and seventy five dollars. The reason I mention this is it's the largest gate ever in the United States for WWF event that wasn't a pay per view, so bigger than any house show, bigger than any television, typing. The biggest non pay-per-view show ever in history. Something else, especially when you consider just one year away from possible. Bankruptcy discussions. Yeah. It was a it was a hit. Well, we got over, you know, I remember putting that car together with vents and I know I can tell you this Austin. And take her to lesser degree if I recall neither like being in tags, but we had a good story going, and the title thing was all, you know, all all all role in interesting with Kane and mankind, and nobody knew who was friends, foes, and trust anybody lot of a lot of uncertainty, which is great for wrestling unpredictability better word probably. But, you know, four of our top guys and they, they were all over and, you know, getting Mick Foley, and Kane over was was a bonus. Because mic was as I seventy four, he's we look to hire him because of his didn't wondering there until he wondered see I can understand how it was, heartbroken, which never happened, by the way, not, at least not for that. And make an McCain very well. It was a good thing man. And it was. Hey, the WBZ's not even settled to garden. Now. As I understand. I might be wrong, but I heard holidays did sell it out and that's almost a layup. So these guys are over. And that's what I say when, when I hear about some of this town was talking about how great they are. Why don't you go sell some tickets before you because discussion making a lot of money doesn't mean you're drawing it. Right. So people get paid a salary based stick to make sure they don't leave. But how they really sell the tickets to merit that salary. I question that. Well, there's no questioning that you guys were doing a great job with the ratings June eighth raw raw would do a four point three two nine we'll do a four point zero three. Let's talk about that raw, though, there was something on this show, the really stuck out to me. You've got George Martin from the New York, Giants and Darnell, Autry from the Chicago Bears. And they're here to present Mr McMahon with the humanitarian of the year award when Austin shows up with a black tie and jeans, but no shirt or jacket and Martin claims that he's representing the minority athletes network and says, McMahon gave less money than he promised and his check bounce twice. And then he reveals that his favorite wrestler, a Steve Austin. And of course, Austin Monza, picking McMahon's pockets of twelve hundred dollars gives it to the charities calls Vince, the Titus son of a bitch. And the WWF outcomes taker with the druids bring a casket to the ring, but it winds up being king coming out of the casket mankind comes from the other. Outside of the ring, and they put Austin in the casket and then Cain stands on top as stuck their era sports sky. How did this association with the giants and the bears legends come to be well, I can tell you this WBZ's always been very pro things like make a wish, etc. And in that New York area, we did a lot of things thanks to the efforts Suzy Aitchison who just went all this year, well-deserved Suzy h going into hall of fame was as deserved as anybody. That was inducted this year in my opinion, so Suzie had a good report, George Martin. They did a lot of charity stuff together. And so the thence to his credit he was getting used to being a heel. He didn't really he, he won't acknowledge the organization and acknowledged the company support of it, but he didn't want to. He wanted to protect his heel status. So that's why the. Dialogue was as it was. But a George Martin was a big friend of the company. I'm sure George Georgia's alive. You've probably still is great linebacker for the giants. Bill Parcells teams back in the day. So that was how that went down, but it was a legitimate awards. I understand it that this kind of protect the Mr. McMahon's side of it, and not give the, he'll in major redeeming social, qualities, which is a Mark of a good. He'll without question. Let's talk about the next week show, gene fifteenth. Rhonda's a four point three nitro does a four keep that momentum going June twenty second row does a four point three national does a four point one so clean sweep here for all. Let's talk about the June fifteenth, rawal, though, Shawn Michaels, according to the observer was at the WWF event for the first time since wrestlemainia, of course, he's there because they're doing TV in San Antonio, quote the report from those who saw him was that he was mentally in better shape than. He had been in a long time, and he cut his hair. They was able to sit down and stand up right for periods of time without excruciating pain, and you may remember he goes home after wrestlemainia fourteen with a debilitating back problem. You can see him grimacing through the match. She's just not in good space, physically mentally, emotionally. So when you see him here is moving around a little better. He's got a haircut. What did you think do you remember seeing Sean at TV for the first time in a long time? And what were people saying sort of behind the scenes about that? Yeah. He looked great. And it was it was a heart warming to see that he, he, he wasn't paying all the time. I think as far the biggest issue whether we thought he would ever come back or not always did. That's why made the effort to keep in touch with him in this. Why won't to San Antonio on nothing? More than one occasion to be with him and his attorney. And, you know, I so honest with him and he needed to have the honesty thrown him. I can't remember attorneys gonna skip something nice guy. But, you know. As you don't want your legacy to be this. You, you, you went home and never came back because of bad back. I mean there's things you can do and he said, what I can't you know, he got angry what can I do? I can't I can't. I can't move around like I used to Bubba bus. We came to get healthy. I said until then having a guy like you in the locker room in our locker room in and you go to understand Sean for a lot of these guys. These young guys we're trying to hire your the role model. You're the guy that got them interested in wrestling to a large degree they've they they pattern their game. Some of these guys at things that you do. So I said, you know, there's a lot of things you can do to help the company and I didn't want to thought the damn thing we'll look. And by the way, we're painting, seven hundred fifty K a year on a weekly check. So you're getting paid. Well, and I and I know that you'd probably want to contribute. And you know, you can do a lot of good things for us. So it was great seeing in there. That was a big breakthrough for him to vich back into the to the atmosphere to that environment. Because at one time Konrad, you know what it was when he first left after that wrestlemainia. He spoke of nobody's really sure he would ever see him again. And if we did it. Might be after four years. And then maybe you go down south who knew we didn't know a lot of unanswered questions. Well, something that wasn't unanswered is what's going to happen with the WBF programming on raw USA, inks another deal for three years here. That's reported in the June eighth. Observer talk to me about what that process looks like I mean once upon a time when ratings are what they are, but they're not necessarily gangbusters. You've got to be glad to have the opportunity now that you're on top of the world. Are you getting a better deal, or you very appreciative that you had a partner when you needed one is that relationship change when the tide turns businesswise, I don't think so the, this had lots of do with the relationship Bill, which with USA, and Bonnie. Hammer was I think she was in, in the empower of involved. She was a big player there that, that, that got along well with WWE are. Are, are writing started coming back with the thing about is it if you look at the big picture Conrad the other the ratings that USA were earning. On other shows, but they're paying a lot of money to produce or they bought our were less than what we were earning even when we were in a little bit of a slump when we were getting kicked, our ass kicked eighty three weeks in a row. But the relationship was good that help. Here's another deal being in Stanford. Connecticut is, you know, thirty minute drive to New York City, it was almost like we're all local in that regard. So they could see each other often the communicated. Well, and this had some good people around him in that world that also took up the slack. So we had a we had a good relationship with USA and in the in that time because we're still delivering good ratings. And then when the ratings really started going up, you know, we were the we're the bull of the woods, especially rose might say, so it was s how that worked, and it says state, you, they she she fought for us. She fought for us. Big time to keep some money nights keeps some prime time. And so it was a, a real good posit win win business relationship, which seemingly are few and far between nowadays. But that's what you always look for. Now, one of the things I wanted to ask about when I started to do this research, is something that happened very briefly called pay per listen. I misheard report the to be paperless and for the over the edge blew out the circuits because so many people ordered it at the last minute. So everyone, who ordered the show will now be given the king of the ring broadcast for free. It's still sort of the infancy of the internet. But talk to me, a little bit about pay per listen, when you first heard about it. What Vince thought about it just what you remember about it because it does feel like something that is very nineteen ninety eight. Yeah. And you know what I saw our format and I started trying to think about this. Honestly, I have very little memory of because we must have tried to once or twice if that if that, you know, we did try to do radio WWF at one time, and just need a good syndicator, and we didn't have that. So the infrastructure was there. So the, the. Audio thing was just we're going to sell on this case in share. King audio and whatever else natural audio and two. If you, you know, for a cheaper price for fuel this one to listen and not watch our wanted to save money, more specifically. But I think it was a short lived deal. You know, I always loved. And when my first meeting with Vincent Augusta. When I was leaving W w w coming WWE. We talked about the radio network. We've talked about hotline, so he talked about audio and it's funny that you're making, you know, doing well now doing audio and it's fun. How that all started. Of course that was that was preceded. But my radio show, I did for a good while in Atlanta WSB. So the audio was dick component of our discussion. It was something that we tried. But for whatever reason again, it could have been infrastructure wise and not having the personnel to that knew what they were doing to manage it, but I thought it was a decent idea. It almost like a paid podcast. Luckily, pay wall or something, but it didn't it didn't last long. No didn't shame too, because it could've continued. But I mean it was maybe a little bit ahead of its time at the end of the June twenty second raw, which is the go home addition for the king of the ring show, Austin is going to do promo here, challenging Cain to come out and canes. Come out and make some sort of motion in all kinds of red liquid comes from the cage to give the impression that it's raining blood on Steve Austin, talk to us about the magic behind that. What was the liquid I was put together this feels like it's a precursor for gang. Grails bloodbaths. Yeah. Probably probably was idea barred from that deal. I think it was obviously water-based really versed on all that stuff. They had a good prop crew there that did all that stuff. And I would think that'd probably a Russo idea, you know, seems that sounds like something you come up with. But it was a very bobble graphic video rather than the fishermen very, very strong, but I'm sure it was just water based in, because you can't make you gotta make sure your eyes or your mouth or you swallow whatever you're not gonna poison somebody, you're blind somebody. So that, that kind of deal, it was very it was very graphic. But the gravity of the angle leading into first flood cetera et cetera was is what it called for. So it was a it was a it was very effective in the Russo. Dick, come up with I think he did hats off to him. What are the things that doesn't get talked about enough is the fact that the Friday before the pay per view, Austin goes into the hospital in Houston? He's got a staff infection in his right elbow, which, of course, results in super high fever allegedly ties a hundred and four degrees. So that's clearly, not something you want to mess around with, and they wanted to have him hospitalized through Monday. But we know that's not going to be the case. He's gotta pay per view to get to allegedly the bad elbow, Bruce took place at the television, tapings and either San Antonio or Houston. And by Wednesday he had a mild, fever. He's booked on some smaller shows in Corpus Christi and Tyler and. He's in great pain, and has to be taken backstage after the show when you hear this is happening to your top star, your pay per view, main event you start making backup plans. Like, hey, what if we lose our main event, here's what we could pivot to? Or did you always think Hooker crook? He'll be there. The latter Khokar crook. He's gonna make it. You know, Tekere assert that week to take her out of bed foot bone. Spurs etcetera, etcetera a man, their warhorses. They had worked their asses off in this in through the territory system to get to this level of a global superstar on a territory superstar a global superstar, and they show. We're not going to relinquish it very much. Reminds her that commercial years ago. The Clint Eastwood did about his guns, you know, you'll you'll take my guns or may Charleston. Somebody said you take my gun, so my cold dead hands or something. You'll take my spot to my cold hands. Cisco the theory I was thinking, and, but we don't know that we had a plant be those things. Are you know that that would? That's the wrestling business. The great thing about is, are interchangeable parts. Some are less than obviously, we'd come up with something, but I don't know what it would have been at this moment in time. Nobody's gonna replace Austin, you could substitute for. You're not gonna replacing but we always we always thought that he's gonna make it. And he was adamant. He was gonna make it. And so the fever broke, but he, he competed and performed with a lot of a lot of pain, and that, I remember he looked like the goddamn, bounding, man come not there in that ninety eight king ring Mashal Kane big knee racist. We all remember now's elbows all screwed up. So Steve, Austin really was the body. Man on that night. And he just got it out. And and got it got his job done. And got the work done. So no, no plan B Conrad, but we just had belief that, you know, he's going to save up and go. Let's talk about the entertainer. You mentioned the a foot injury multiple recall an ankle injury says it was a crack dangle crack tackle. What's he thinks resulted in some bone chips and it was all from an angle? That was shot on location for the June sixteenth, typing in Austin, Texas, now, you may remember this is where he was appalled. Bears house, tearing it up. And that's before it airs on June twenty second. There wasn't a noticeable spot on camera or he was injured but -ironically during this angle, Paul bear also suffers an ankle injury, which Meltzer freestyles is win the entertainer was throwing furniture around something landed on his leg now. Although, of course, his role is going to be more limited than undertaker. He's still not going. To appear to manage Kane on the shows for the rest of the week, and they're going to use the television beating as the storyline excuse. So when you to top dogs go down with injuries, you would think this would be cause for concern, but the Ming warhorses horses, maybe not so much. I do want to mention something else that made the observer mess would right. There's been some reports going around, including some fairly significant press in Japan about the world wrestling federation, being interested in buying the Minnesota Vikings, there has been to the best of my knowledge, no mainstream media report on this the United States. But we do know is that a company meeting on June twelfth McMahon told some of the higher ups that he was interested one would think the Vikings since they would go for a few hundred million would be way out of McMahon's league. Although McMahon could hit up a group of investors officially the word from titan is only to the extent that there has been dialogue. Well, obviously, everybody listening to this knows your big football fan and we know that the XFL. A thing back then. And we'll be again soon. When did you first hear the, the rumor about Vince, trying to buy the Vikings or did it happen? What do you remember about at me up? He this sorry, Vince. Stop to me about that because he knew. And sometimes begrudgingly my love for football. You know he had a good deal. I had a great deal with him in the sense that I didn't have any hobbies. He knew I need to have a ton of stigma head above water Caisley. So he would fly me and Chan she wanted to go to games when we're living in Connecticut. So I would go to games on vistas dime five first class to Greg Jeremy a very frequent of that. So he knew as a football Mark for lack of a better term. And so he talked to me about it and not give my blessing or distant general because he had not kept up with the ball, but the I don't think ever got past the. Talking states Conrad, I don't think it ever got dirty no major millions of the Vikings. Are you know, he may have had a casual meeting with some investors or something? But I think bottom line is it, it was just a talking thing. They were on sale. They were on sale. There were four sale. And so, but he I don't know the seriousness of it long shot at best, but there was dialogue isn't it amazing too? To think what if though I don't know that's a weird name to play sometimes. But if he had bought the Vikings onto pretty good, the XFL would've never exists in right, exactly. Yeah. Can't can't see that happening. Fascinating to me. Well, let's talk about the show. Let's get him the king of the ring nineteen ninety eight you watched it this week for the first time this is the first time you've seen since it happened. All the way through. Yes. Absolutely. I'm sure a lot of people are watching it this week for the very first time this is go set a record for Pittsburgh as we mentioned earlier, and you guys had been there a lot. Some slam ninety five which is a rematch from the ladder match wrestlemainia ten the interview a actually held record for many years with the great American bash in eighty-seven, which is pretty amazing because always at least to me been a more historical WEF city. Let's get into the first man says the head bangers teaming up with takemichi no to take on dick to go men's tau and Funaki. It's an unannounced match feels a little thrown together based on you know they didn't really promote it too much. But I got to quarter stars in the observer and lots of interesting characters here does for like the head bangers are maybe a little out of place, but. What did you think of the match Washington this week for the first time in a long time? Good opener. Good opener. I thought a lot of action, good spots and feel good finish. Good opener in that respect for that era. The contact kids are that good job, you know. I guess go to see talk back doing things with the new Japan still around the he was the hell hand. He was. He's far the star of that group my pinion, but Funaki canal is the San Antonio. It's that earlier. He's, he's, he's he stayed in the states. So he's a I'm assuming still he's a citizen by now. I'm not sure. But. Is that minced HALE was a good hand? He kind of disappeared a believe and dick to go, Mr. Barnett's favorite carry out on my God. I love the dicta go, he was he was a good hand too. So I think Funaki and, and talk this to stars that coretec, and those gopher did everything you needed to get the people up get them to, you know react, get them a little bit better than a Mexico's matches not star leading, but it was talent late. All those guys can work and they, they did a nice job with the opener. We haven't talked much about the head bangers. I admit I kind of Doug the head bangers. I thought they had good matches and we're maybe underrated a little bit. Whose idea was the head bangers? Is that a is that a Russo gimmick? But I think it was actually Jim cornets idea. Really? I think cornet created the head bangers I if I recall correctly, I could stand be corrected. But yeah, they, they did a good job. They they're good guys. They were tarred, Glenn Ruth Chaz wearing tan reliable, you know talking about reliability. They always on time, they're always at work. They're always working hard. You know, they should have got a little bit more of a push than they did as in. This is a straight tag team. But they were they were good guys and they'd probably don't get the credit deserve as a tag team in WWE, and they mesh very well with those for Japanese fellas, and they have had, like I said, they had a nice open, but they're, they're good t-. They're a good team. And probably look back at it hindsight. There could have been more mileage achieve with them if they have been given a ball bit more prominently. But that didn't happen. Talk to me a little bit about came. Mix. Do you think that those guys had they been given a different gimmick may have had, I guess what I'm trying to get to is did the head banger gimmick limit their upside, because it does feel like you never hear anybody. Say anything. Bad about either one of the guys, as you said, reliable worker, things like that. Were they a victim of a gimmick that just sort of pays in hold them into? Well that's where they are. Perhaps that answer for you. But perhaps. Many didn't have a problem with it. And I certainly did not. I think the main thing that some older school guys, even older than me that were on the staff couldn't understand how a guy talents in wrestling. I wrestler a male wrestler to get over wearing a skirt. So silly, is that. But I it could it could have hampered him a little bit. I like they're giving I like to sit their lifestyle current with the times. Isn't that the guy would think that, you know, just? This is a world where Roddy piper exists. I mean, I know I know makes no sits. But they were Roddy piper. Right. So, but yeah, it it could have been that it could have been some of that Conrad without a doubt. But personally for me. I I like the gimmick, I had no issues with whatsoever. I thought that they'd they played it off oil, but we could have done a better job of positioning them to where they didn't come off and taking consideration at their, their gimmick was needed some explanation, they could probably got over a whole lot more if they'd been a, a nice string of in. Yeah. It's done to explain. What a head banger is, you know, some, some bitch, and, you know, in Muskogee or you know, our dothan might not know, right? So we need to. I don't think we did a good job of explaining it to them. All right. Let's get to the next batch here. We've got well before we get to the next man, I should talk about the fact that sable came out looking as RIC flair would say is only she. Can look. Yeah, it was like a sore Peter, that was hard to beat. Meltzer would right before the next night. Save a walk to the ring without tipping over which I don't know why but Meltzer really take a lot of shots at sable back, then she introduces, Vince McMahon, who, of course, comes out with his stooges who are going to become big characters on the show, Pat, Patterson, and Gerald Brisco ask sable goes to leave. Pat, pats are on the ass and sable turns around and slaps Patterson. And do you make a remark about him being in a place? He's never been in before or something like that. And then McMahon doesn't interview and he talks about, how Cain was going to win the title at ringside wearing an Austin three sixteen shirt was heavyweight, boxer Michael Moore cheering McMahon, apparently not realizing what was going on. But you don't really Michael Moore being in the crown oh, McMahon, though is going to be criticized by Meltzer. He would say McMahon did easily the worst interview since he's been playing this role as he came off, like green. Independent manager insulting the fans and went on far too long, trying to get the cheap heat. And when the show was over it was clear, dude, injuries of undertaker in Austin that they were adding matches and segments to kill time as the show ended about ten minutes early even after adding two new matches and the showed more replace of Patterson being slapped by sable is this accurate that you guys were just trying to kill time. Because you knew to your dogs were were down, and you were going to have to make up some time somewhere. Yeah. We need the show is short. The show is formatted and it was short on time. No matter. We added or not added we short on time. So. And the other thing is that we weren't sure how long St. could work in the main event, because of the of the his staff infection had no idea. And of course, you got take your situation got him in a cell match the bed foot ankle, whatever. So, but the match the show overall was underwritten in that regard. So a couple of matches were added and they weren't like they're just bullshit matches. There are good matches. So, you know, the matches are added were solid matches, but the show is underwritten, and we had to we had, we had to cover our bets. A little bit heads are bits two Stephen taker both being banged up. So that's where that was, I think this is from stood again, you know, like I said yesterday, and today, he monitor tried to hard to get personal with the audience, it might have been that he was trying too hard to generate some heat, which he felt like was needed in an I kid, disagree with that. You can't get too much heat as a rule Cam, but very rarely and he was being a villain. But I think he's going to try to hard on that one. And there's where he could have had a filter and said, Vince, I don't think you need to say this, or you already made that point twice whatever. I don't know his worst interview. It's all subjective. Anyway. And meltzer's got his own opinions his right to. I didn't I wasn't turned off. Glenn Beck and hearing it again last couple of days by any stretch. What I suggest folks do their, the year our show. Go watch it make the call you make the call. Let's easy and you got to your opinion, folks, just as valid as Conrad's remind and even Dave Meltzer. That's fair to say, you know, I think a lot of times, people get caught up on, you know what they read or what the here and that becomes the gospel. But some of this is just sort of your opinion, right? Yeah. That's all it's a take. It's a take. If you are drowning on a road and we're going to solicit as soon as Rodman driver in Uber, and we're drinking. Hey, what was a buff edge? Yep. We sure are who's the biscottis football program American say, well, the Alabel go, well, you know, it's so team with is the Val, you say that we agree on that. But it's an attention. Right. But that's kind of what Meltzer duster living. He provides a season expert opinion, a take on on the business. So, but I didn't I wasn't offended by the interview whatsoever, because the thing with Patterson Briscoes animates and being animated. It was always entertaining as hell to me. And then when Pat slapped or hit save it on the backside. Let me tell you something. I did hear before the show that she was instructed to because she didn't know how to work. She didn't know how to throw a punch. So she slapped ever loving shit out of Patterson and it popped and so, and to me, of course, measureless company, I also like America's funniest videos watch that stuff on ice. But that's me and sadistic off, thought it was hilarious. So I think that, that little interacts with Patterson sable on the exit. If anything, if the thought the interview was bad with this, that kind of salads segment a little bit to me. Now, I want disagree. I think that's what people remember. But, but you may remember most about this show a believe this is the show, where Pat found out that his longtime partner Louis ah passed away from heart attack, and Louis was a staple with the company for a long time. And obviously being pats partner, you were probably pretty familiar and friendly with Louis Nuuk. Tell us about Louis, and then how you guys got this unfortunate news. I actually think Louis passed away just a few days before this Conrad. I believe because I want to say it seems like we were in Maryland at one of the little towns in Maryland doing TV, and, but nonetheless, you're right about the basic time line lose a g- a good Louis was Barbara hairstylist, but he had a real successful barber shop in San Francisco and this, and he and tat lived in San Francisco for emphatic that territory for ROY Shire for, you know, well over a decade, probably fifteen years, so but Louis had because he was pets significant other Louis had a great mind for wrestling Lewis, sharp guy, and he understood the business, he understood all the little nuances because Pat, which share that with him. They. And then, of course, the phone would ring, and I remember it's always some agent, call you round having a drank or eaten. I was there to her house at least one or two days a week, when Jan flu, we're she was based out of Philadelphia. So she would take a train from Connecticut down to Philly and catch our flight to go to work. And then the same deal should come back to Philly. Then take the flight home to our train Hondo Connecticut. But I was there, I was looking for America's guest and Bruce, your are your are other podcasts Farner, Bruce airline, but BRUCE'S married and he's home, a husband should be more often than not, and I was not. I was married. But my wife is gone. So I, I really enjoy being around Louis great cook. He made this great chimney cherry sauce for the stuff. Great spaghetti sauce. And I remember Jan low their dog buddy, that have Diggle come nixed burglar, German shepherd and something else. Big dog and buddy love Jan Jan love, buddy. And they didn't want buddy eating treats, but she would bring these little treats over from buddy, every time, she came over, and Pat would grumble and bitch moan and Lou discount to tolerate it. You know goes. Buddy was the elector. Silence. I'm not being the safest either people that got pets. They love understand that to lose a good man and the Louis low give you his philosophy things life, all kinds of stuff. I remember sitting around I got hired I didn't have a specific stuff to do. And I was really getting bored. And he said, well, you just need to chill because sooner than later with your with your skill set. He said, I could tell you this already likes you, you're going to be really, really busy long much sooner than later. And lo and behold, he was exactly right. Yes, you were in the king of the ring semi finale. We've got. Ken shamrock and Jeff Jarrett. They go five minutes and twenty nine seconds it gets one star in the observer Meltzer would say the crowd wasn't into this match at all the to miss any moves. There's nothing wrong with the match, but they didn't have time to build and they had no heat going in shamrock nearly killed himself when he did a running hurricane Ron and turning over appear to hit his head on the map and then clamped on the ankle walk for the submission not the best match. And this is a, an interesting time for Jeff Jarrett because it feels like he's got a big presentation. He's got a manager. He's, you know, got a kitsch phrase. He's got pyro. But for whatever reason it's not connecting with the audience. What do you remember about this match? And what did you think of always believed that two talents are over that if you're restricted on time you can still, I want to say salvage a good match, you can tell a good story, if you're both over, you got something going for you when the. Bell rings. Start your contest and, and Kenny was up for getting going up. But double Jay had not gotten quote unquote over at that time. So there was not a great interest in, in that situation, his presentation, I think he had Colonel Parker with him that time what we'd name name used. But nonetheless. Tom son of a gun, a hell of a hand is day, Tennessee Lee believes what do you call them so that? Yeah. There you go some stereotypical southern or shit. You know, you know. So that's the main tally there, sometimes. But that's I've missed with me to wear, a, a US Jack is a Puerto wagon used to wear on the TV show that was lagging wheels on it, and rhinestones and all that shit. Yeah, I got that was proposed to me. One time I said, I got our the hat all you want. I got locked in a hat at eventually. But I said, I ain't gonna come on. I had credibility Nancy. I'm looking at fucking clown. I want to get these guys over, we need to get town over. We're not drowning money. So he backed off that idea. But Colonel, I don't think that the audience ever accepted that combination in a serious way. It's not an indictment on either guy. It just didn't click at that point in time now. You know Jeff finally got over when he when he started affiliate road dog. And dog was the star that combination because he have more charisma than Jeff did great talker, the Rhody who's great. And Brian has been so contributing, they're all this time. So it just they weren't over. So you see if you got to talents are not over it, wouldn't make a shit. Conrad contra Meltzer might say if they ask fifteen minutes. Right. They still ain't going to get the they're not going to get the people in mostly investment costs. They're, they're trying to get over. And they're not. So that's kind of where we were there. I didn't think the Matt sucked it wasn't a great match. And because again, who shows that the crowd can have such for dominant influence on our perception of, of a of a performance. And, you know, they work melt your said that miss any moves, right? It's just nobody cared. Also, maybe I've thought of this before, too. I'm not so sure that people really thought Jeff could beat shamrock. Right. And that probably had a little bit to play to it too. Yeah. I mean when you position into be the you know. America's bad asked the world's most dangerous man. It's, it's, it's hard to imagine that the fake ass country singer is going to beat him up creek in the other semi finale, we've got rocky Ma via getting a win over. Dan, Severn here in four minutes and twenty five seconds Meltzer, hated it. He gave it a negative half star. He called awful. So also had no heat. What do you think this is not the best match for either guy, but this match sort of sums up Dan severance WWF career he had some success on the independence. And of course, he was with you guys for a little while before it, ever reason, it never really clicked. Felt like it didn't really click in this match either. No, no, you're right. Meltzer, didn't like Dan Severn ticket of Penn fall loss because it's going to hurt him in Japan. And, and I, I really appreciate days loyalty is dedication, his phantom of all things Japan, it has been that way for years. I learned a lot about Japanese wrestling from Dave, but the world doesn't start our end in Japan. Nor does the starter in here in America. But, you know, sometimes I think that Japanese stuff is given more credence more more weight than maybe it deserves. Not sure, it's my opinion. I like it. I enjoyed doing their matches but I think sometimes days, a little bit biased as relates to the Japanese thing. Dan? Severn was a guy that I hired in. I'm proud that I hired him. I just saw star cast a Vegas. Yep. He's a class act Conrad he's a class act. I don't know how your dealings was with him in Vegas. Yeah. It is educated grounded level headed amazing immature background. And we all knew we watched a lot of men may fans glued myself in the new that, that Kenny shamrock and Dan were one one against each other. It just seemed to be too predictable that they would meet in the finals. Plus, I don't think that any of us were overly confident that they had the chemistry to perform a worked pro wrestling match to any large degree to, to be the king of the ring. It just didn't feel right? And I think that, you know, we gotta understand too, that there was all kinds of, you know, shamrock was way outnumbered out there, you know, dealer brand Kazan or that silly gimmick I gave him but the chest protector needs Vic frog slash. It all the nation guys in and out around. And by the way, he did the honors for the rock. So I and of course they really wouldn't the rock, then he, he was he was rocky, my vivid Saint guy. Right. I don't think it in a meltsa thought that well this'll be ruined his career internationally daddy severance von knowledge has still been book since then a lot a lot. Yeah. So fairly didn't ruin his career as was written there. But that's kind of what we went with. And in, in the m-, the we wanted, we knew what we wanted to finals, any tournament anytime you see a tournament book, folks, the way pro wrestling tournaments are book you go to the finals, and you might even say you go to the winner, who do you want to win the tournament? And how do you work backwards? You work it all the way back to the very first match of the tournament. And we wanted to shamrock and the rock to be in the finals that had a little issue on TV that has some history, and they had the chemistry. They, they like. Working with each other Kenny, had no issues selling for the raw because, you know, he he admir- the rocks athleticism cetera et cetera. And of course, the rock had no fear of nothing. And he, he could make anybody look good. But more often than not. So we knew that was our final in unfortunate. Kenny didn't have a plan have a place in that. But he's class act. He was he just didn't have Kenny there had the overwhelming television, charisma that the audience demands more often than not. But boy as a human being, we never had a gun or locker room that had was a better human being the dance ever. Let's go to the next match, I guess, we should mention that shamrock had to beat Marquette, ary, comma, to give here, Jeff cheer had to be for Ruch and Marc Mero to get here, the rock had to be Vader and triple eight to give here Severin had to be de low in Owen Hart to get here. So that's sort of the background of how we got here. I do want to mention that dense ever did an interview on the internet around this time. And when he was asked if there was more than a professional rivalry between himself and Ken shamrock. He said something like. He doesn't like anyone who isn't natural. And he went on to say, let's say he doesn't get his body by just working out, but then again most of the bigger guys in wrestling didn't. And when he brought up about shamrock admitting to doing things in the past she severance at something like I don't know if it's so much in the past, so we sorta tongue in cheek saying, hey, he's on steroids. Guys does that make its way to the office. Do you think about seven during an interview like that? Well, it wasn't advised to talking about the steroids situation. Coming concern the legacy of steroids, and a W W F back in the day. But, you know, he expresses opinion, and we thought, well, you know, it's just going to have more fuel to the fire when they do finally work because that was the plan coming in when we are at something we both got it. We got them both hired. The we had this talk about doing a Severin and shamrock program. But just not in the finals of the king of the ring. Right. So but Danny Danny, and Danny then is very outspoken. But then he's honest he wasn't trying to stir the shit as much as he's answering a question and gave an honest answer as he saw it. So at that point, you know, you hope that, well, maybe they'll add a little log that fire, and if we get this Chan Rockin, and seven people want to see it. That sounds crazy. But he worked in talent relations for a long time. So I've got to ask, did you have some sort of coaching with a PR person or yourself or anything like that about okay guys, if you're doing an interview, and something like this comes up? Here's a couple of key phrases or go, Goto statements, you can sly to. She don't put yourself for the company in about position, honestly. No. Sure, they'd do today. I would think you know, we, we didn't have this size staff that the talent relations farmer has now and all the players involved. Former Senator etcetera etcetera we didn't have that big staff. You know, so we didn't have the bodies to go around, and I think it's a great idea. But, you know, we we saw something the internet was not nearly as prominent as it is now, obviously, gosh. So we didn't have any official meetings about it. You just hope the guys that user commonsense and are in and they're logic when they did an interview in a lot of times interview. We, we set up, you know with a, a newspaper in the local market, whatever. But we didn't have that many problems with it. And quite frankly, other than the missing the steroid issue, which can't rerun from us, don't want to bring it back up. Sweep it under the rug. Let's just not bring it up as a pop a conversation. But I don't I don't remember talking to. I remember talking to Dan, you know, we, we he that he just was a matter of fact with it. He wasn't like, well, Kenny, Kenny, it never that, right? He just a matter of fact in answering the question. And so it's hard to get pissed off Eddie when he's fry telling the truth, let's get to the next match here. We've got to Brian Christopher teaming up with Scott Taylor. Of course, we know what that's going to become one day, and they're going to take on Al snow in head. That's right. That's real here, the stipulations are if snow had lose than snow has to leave the WWF and. Yeah. This is really the first time we see Christopher in Taylor on national TV. Like this, of course, we know they're going to go on to be too, cool. What'd you think of their first outing like this? And most importantly, what did you think of the finish? And let me mention that lawler's involved here and head is an active participant. A. The men can head was knows tag team partner. It is. And they find a way getting you know what you're thinking. Well, that's fucking ridiculous. How can you ahead? Well, they thought of that Broncos to forget the bottle of head and shoulders shampoo. Probably the head had dandruff final. No. And he puts head on top of the bottle and then covers the shoulders of head and shoulders, they bottle of shampoo and Lawler, counts, three because, well, inanimate objects can't kick out negative to stars. And, and you even acknowledge and commentary that this is a travesty to have this on television, which is probably the first time you've just outright admitted boy, this sucks. What did you think? I thought he's up. And, and you know, wrestling fans are smarter than some of the administration in every company that I worked for or given credit for being of -nificant booker's sometimes look down if the arresting audience sector peons piss ants or whatever, and they don't have any brains. I, I that infuriates me to have that dialogue somebody it was embarrassment. It was a lousy creative idea. And so and, and sometimes, you know, vis deal that he would say, face, or trying to save face riders, not, not emasculated, 'cause I had a problem with it sometimes was, you know, well, it was a let me up segment all the shows, too heavy, heavy, meaning dramatic whatever. So let me up segment little comic relief. I understand that concept and I don't disagree with the concept. It was just crappy entertainment. And it just was ill-conceived, and I basically said as much on the air which did not, I don't think got Christmas gifts at year from the writing staff. I mean it sucked. It's one of the worst things you've called mentioned, though, that snow came up with the head gimmick, walis in ABC, w and a few months prior to this. It was one of the hotter, things even a month prior to this and may he headline day NEC, w pay per view. I think it was called wrestle palooza against Shane Douglas think that was in Marietta eighth over in a major way with this gimmick, and now he's on TV here and. Well, he's not in the main event against the world champion he's against Brian Christopher and Scott Taylor and his head is his tag team partner, and they put it with shampoo chat me up. Why did WWE take something that was hot NEC w and essentially shit on it? I, I wish I could give you a really insightful intuitive answer. The WWE has had an issue over the years of being somewhat resistant in accepting proven gimmicks. Proven personas that were developed elsewhere, and they changed them when they come to WWE, and I don't understand why you're always going to own the you're going to own the talents name while they're under contract that you got that they signed that away. But then when you go and start changing the names. I mean, you, you know, you can't you can't use that name when you leave that you've got all this list exposure on, so I don't know the answer that too is. An ego could be eagle is insecurity is there are there legal ramifications on that stuff? There might be on the name, but not on a presentation, the head thing got over else. No created head the mannequin head the, the head the inference to, you know, filet show. It was right. It is just, you know, here's the voice of our childhood. And you just draw shoe on us. I'm going to laugh sorry. All right. Okay, spill in order to means. So the got over and so, yeah, why don't you, then we meaning myself and other people were there to time. We aren't happy with that it own his own. We got to change it. Why do we have to change it? I don't know the answer to that is, it's not it doesn't make any sense to change it. That's like Kurt hitting son, never use it word hinting. What you get you let the flair on TV. Right. You got other second generation guys, but, you know, Hannigan make was mix no sense. So there's a selective process, my point is saying this, and I don't know what the what the, the answer is it just seems to be miss guided thoughts in, in it almost reeks of insecurity to me, but that got the Al got the gimmick over, they so merchandise in of course, in that defiant eighteen to thirty four eighteen to forty nine male demographic. If you can talk about head in a public environment and not get slapped or rested, it seems like it's pretty cool for them. And that's what it was. Talk to me a little bit about that. We're talking about the differences, you know, and you know what this guy's loud. The day versus that guys allowed the do I feel like we're tip toeing a little bit. Is this all vents? Or is this someone else notes vents vents? He may say he's just uncomfortable with something and give that challenge to the creative staff or the agents or whatever to get an idea. But, but the beginning of that conversation in that action starts in answering him. So, for whatever reason, you know, it's like he used to say, you know, you can't be half pregnant, you go to go all the way. Whether or not he said, that's me, a zillion times, seemingly bunch. But on this do I don't understand is selective is really selective and I it just amazes me. Still amazes me at names. They're changed yet talents. Come a WW now that had great names. Internationally you know, Finn Bauer new name why? But we went on it. Okay. So, you know, but the thing that people forget, is that if you come with another name in WWE, and you sign a contract, while you are in under contract, the company, the WW controls the right to that night. Whether it be your real name or not. 'cause you're under contract, they managed that name. They managed that intellectual property. So I just there's always protection there. But again, so it may not be all legal, it just may be ego Centric. And, and you know that nothing exists outside that the, the umbrella WWE, which says they are proving now that's an AWS proven that and ring of honor and all these places that ain't true anymore. There are other games in town, whether people want to admit it in WWE or not. They're just and fans like that give them a choice. But I, I never thought alga shortchanged. That deal. And as I said before another show Alyssa, very fundamentally sound guy came one of our best coaches. He's doing a great job right down Lovie, w where he owns that company. Now, Marvin Danny Davis. So Al had a lot of skills. And, but we would cut short the head thing and nobody likes to have gets cut short in the middle hit. You just never works. Yeah. No. Now, let's get to the next matches XBox and Owen Hart XBox gets the win in eight and a half minutes. Martinerie does little interference. He's going to come out and splash. X Pokka course, XBox pocket Owen Hart are both part of the nation. Domination, China starts arguing with Henry of Italy. Vader comes out, does the big body block on Henry, and invader, takes a tumble himself doing it while it's going on China gets in the ring gives, oh, NATO the ref turns around ex pockets the peon two and a half stars Meltzer liked it. So the wrestling was good. But he said, the Matt's head no heat. He felt like the crowd was not really into. This one. What did you think of the match you haven't seen this one in a long time? It's a rematch, believe it or not for king of the ring ninety four back then Owen beat the one two three kid on his way to winning the tournament. And their brief feud is going to end after this match here to all time greats in the ring bell to bell. But the match was, I don't know, maybe a little disappointing. Was it overbooked or or what was your opinion? What does additonal? Well it was added on late. There was no Bill to it is hard to go back to ninety four return a mess. It was returned for ninety four ninety eight right? All right. This work listener Frazier Ali, but the work and both those guys Owen and Sean Waldman Xbox One, two three kid, whatever one of my, my favorite workers to my favorite guys, outta love both those guys. And, you know, Shaun's got his podcast go on his straightened up his life, and he's doing he's doing well proud of love him, but nobody came to see that match. He had no advertising at no promotion at no events nothing it just dropped out of sight out of thin air in here. It is because again the show was a little bit underwritten. We had injury issues when needed the time, and there's no anybody should not have any problem saying that well under normal circumstances. The match between Shawn Waldman in Owen Hart, we've been anything but excellent. Unless it's cold and there's no story and is not featured the match. This show was about three things. It was about the new king of the ring. Number two, is about the hell nacelle, and number three is about the, the first blood, and I'm not so sure that when it's all said and done that the remember. Number two, didn't didn't trade places because the held a silver came, you know, immortal in that respect. Sorry, hulk. Yeah, this is a, a bit of a one match show, but we're not there yet. Let's keep it going on unannounced match. Again. The new age outlaws. You're going to get a win over the midnight express to retain the tag titles non minutes and fifty four seconds the midnight express here. This is the new midnight express. You may remember that this is well, maybe not the best idea they've ever had not, but but they are acknowledged as being the interview a tag team. Champions, even though the interview gimmick at, at this point, not been acknowledged, but they do acknowledge that billion part were former wrestling brothers. So, of course, Billy Gunn part of the new age outlaws bark gyn, now part of the midnight express with Bob Holly. Jim cornet here is involved, and you and I've never really talked about this, but I know he's a huge midnight express fan being part of that legendary. Joe had to be a big interview fan but cod. This sucked winded cornet. No it sucked. Was he four it until it happened? And then he wasn't for it. What you remember about the new midnight express. I don't know when we'll talk about him again yet co- cold match again. It wasn't at midnight it wasn't the midnight express. Right. It was Bob Holly and gun. And, and so the for for us to saddle two guys are both tuck fundamentally sound dudes. I mean to some bitches as you come hell or high water, they're going to be at work lottery spec from Martin, and for Bob Holly. But my goodness, you know, of it's just none of those things ever work. I've used a seller station before school wrestling fans. Remember? Cfius Mohan guy. I thank you might have been a fix them on. Oh, I don't know. But he was going to be the next Jimmy Snuka. So the only thing worse name. You know, Jimmy Snuka you got some bad name, you know, mini snooker or whatever is rip off. Nobody it never gets over. So the new midnight express was going to shift a bit coordinate news going to shit, the bid, it wasn't Denison, Bobby. It wasn't Bobby Eaton, Astana lane. The only commonality of that ho deals, yet coordinate, his tennis racket there. That's it in the name. So nobody took it seriously. It was added to the added to the card in just we nobody the midnight had no winded do them any favors. So because I'm not going to say, well, they're not. They weren't either one good workers. They were both excellent workers. But again, there were no vignettes. There's no introduction. There was no no anticipation. No, nothing. So how can anybody expect that mess to be really good with no story is not going to happen? Let me I was. I was not. I was not surprised Conrad that the match didn't get over because my question to you is this, how could it right? You know, the, the thing that you mentioned sort of at the top of the show, is that the companies enjoying all this great success, because the talent feels comfortable with this open door policy with Vince clearly gun and Bob Holly, don't necessarily fit into that category, where they're speaking up. But Jim cornet could have Jim cornet used to book at the house on a regular basis. So why does it or does cornet raises hand at sake God, damn this sucks and we shouldn't do it this way? And if we're going to pass the torch, we've got to tell a story, we've got to have been yet s-, or at this point is corn cornet just fucking burn out and ready to do job collect the check home. No. I think he's been that way the ladder. I think that he did raise his hand. I think he did make some discuss it. But, you know is the oh deal where I'm thinking to Russo probably had a good report bought Bob Holly, embarked gun. He saw sees those guys can we recreate something that it had a good at name. The entity. It just was never going to work in that regard. But, you know, a lot of guys on Friday was in that group to you give the benefit of the doubt to two guys deserve the opportunity to get a push and to get promoted. So I've always heard that. So if you can repackage Bart and Bob Holly, then I'm all for that. But why God goddamn hell, do we have to give them the name the midnight express, right? Made no sense. So. Sure corn Kony is not bashful about expressing. And so I think this things like that may have been part of the 'cause he detests Vince Russo Psomas nowadays. But it just ill ill conceived was never going to work night sound like a naysayer I know it all I don't know at all. But give them another name. How about how about that on Stein? Just give them a goddamn, another name to why they have to be the midnight express. 'cause we got coordinate with a quarter commended some manage them with another name. He can say this team reminds me of my midnight express, or that good. But note, we give insane down name the make no sense. So in the future. If you're keeping score at home, if you put the word new in front of it, it's not going to get over. No next. We've got shamrock in my via this is the king of the ring tournament finale, the winner is going to be your king of the ring. And of course, we know that's getting shamrock it takes him. Fourteen minutes and nine seconds to get the win. It's the third pay per view, mashed between the two in nineteen ninety eight in just June. The first one was Royal rumble. Of course, the rematch was arrested Miami. And now this one so there's a trilogy of pay per view matches and it does feel like shamrock is poised for a big push here hunters Townsley is doing commentary rinkside. You may ask yourself why that is well twofold, we're trying to keep this angle with rocky Ma via going. Of course they're going to square off in a ladder, mass. Some are slamming a couple of months. The most importantly, he is the person who won king of the ring, ninety seven which we covered last year. The match was pretty good three and a quarter stars. What did you think of the match and? I don't wanna talk to you a little bit about why more wasn't done with shamrock. Yeah. I'm asked Bruce this a lot. It does feel like if you're paying attention to the way, the, the, the rise of shamrock goes here. He becomes king of the ring champion. He wins this trilogy. With with rocky Ma via they're all on pay per view. It seems like a bankable guy fans are believe in him as a bad ass in the world's most dangerous man, but he doesn't ever really get a spot against Austin which feels like maybe a lost opportunity before you comment on that, and give me your two cents which think of this match with the rock here and there. They're last match of the trilogy. I liked I like the match very athletic kind of predictable. 'cause you really thought that the deck was so stacked against the world's most dangerous, man that somehow or another, you would not make it to the finish line. Because rock was big member of the nation of domination, strengthened numbers cetera et cetera. But the goal is always to try to Kenny over and you know, rock being the he'll now the roles have been reversed. I'm assuming Rockwood prog on over. But, you know, Vincent look willing to try something different. They're not been a lot of Davy face a king of the ring winners bread, heart, ninety three, I think, was was one, obviously, but after that, there are few and far between to this point in that five year period. So. But I, I enjoyed the match, and I thought it was a good match, and, you know, for shamrock to win with his Finnish, which is an ankle lock in a submission, I thought was extremely good booking because we're getting to a point there, where the I think we thank USC for a lot of that because he saw some really tough big time stars USC. They're, you know, getting Taft out or are knocked out TKO or whatever. So we've found out that it could be a star and not lose your shine by losing the severity submission in pro wrestling, because we see it on a regular basis in USC. So it became a little bit more of a, you know, realistic so rot tapping to the ankle lock I thought was a hell of finish. It shows he does business. He's a pro and we got that hold over. So I thought they had a nice match and it the finish is a little bit surprising because you're thinking, well that'll be miscue. You know, they'll be something. In sham. Robert grab a quick one as they say, you know, inside cradle roll up, whatever. But no he beat beating with this finished which I thought was smart in rot spot on. Now, the reason Kenny, Kenny has some issues is funny. Conrad at I was at I, I was working with you at the star cast in and put up freesheet the opportunities as always. And I and I was sitting there on Sunday morning Raphael morphine just went to work for eighty w by the way, congratulates a rough Yale. And he and Kinney was there at your show, look great. You know, he's got grandchildren. Be looks phenomenal still active, and he came over, and we started kit, laughing about the old days and I had a situation where, you know, he, he missed a town and because he had partied, a little heavy and I think he got a couple of people. So it has. Company, shall we say his room, sir? And they all overslept in. I'm wanna say must be wrong in this. I want to say that he was booked El Paso, in all due respect, El Paso, their cuisine. There ain't a lot of flights getting in and out of there from earlier, we were he misses slight the next flight was getting their shows though, we didn't go. And so that was a weekend deal. So of course, I've got to bring into the principal's office so to speak on on, on Monday at Ralph. And you know, I can't can't do this. I give them a little fine. You know, reprimand Kennedy got it get reliability buddy. We can't allow you to make the downtown's how're you going to get you wanna push? You want to be the, you wanna make a lot of money, right? Yeah. I deserve. Well, guys deserve go to work. And, you know, always had Jerry Briscoe around pool full kidding off. He started kill me. Then he then he just another one few months shoe several weeks. But, but in the same ballpark. So I send somebody for him at a TV and I remember there was a loading dock big loading dock, which are most of building so big loading dock. So tell Brisco celek, I gotta go out talk to San rock being elected. I got to say if I think back about ten fifteen minutes. Somebody come get me to the hospital, you and cut a half ass, Tony cheek. But you know he had he had a short fuse, man. You know, he's the little predictable as a Kinney. We had this conversation, apparently you didn't give a shit apparently. I don't mean nothing in your life where you just to do what you wanna do anyway. But that's not how it's gonna work here. So here's where we are. I'm gonna find you a week's pay for missing town. And no, you would not have made nearly this much money at on the payoff, the town. But I Don I don't either way to reach you. So, and I think he was making that time. Maybe. Two fifty three hundred K. Let's say two fifty on the low end so about five grand week. I said, so I'm gonna find your your your week and I said it, but are we can part ways? And I can't we can't do this way. And I said, I've talked to Vince about it. We're very disappointed. We got we see great things in you. And you know, he he he apologized showed some he was contrite. And but he's still causing five thousand dollars. And we laughed about that thank God in Las Vegas. We do have a flashback on me, but, but me and the ankle. Fat wallet wallowing around in Vegas. But we had a good chat, but he he had matured. He's matured now. He's not doing the guys don't understand, man. And I I'm I tell you, this JR's point of view. I'm not the best drunken the world. I could be miserable bastard when I drink too much, and that's been pointed out by my late wife more than one occasion. Now how about this? You're just fucking main. That's what you're. Gandhi, I'm a little bastard, but when you're drunk, you're fucking, Maine. My hair Indian man. He's filling in its water and I'm gonna be I'll all sudden, I'm Vader size hypothetically, though. If you've had well, if you're in Las Vegas, and you're drunk for some reason, you're not mean there at all. It's weird how when he introduced a little something extra in there. You're not mean at all. It's called a dispensary. Yeah. So. Giving us program. You get a lot of extra stuff your man. Tell your friends about us where you. So anyway, Kenny got. He, he, he get more responsibility. He is booked a law. I booked where we run a show. He's there ends, but I guess he got a little bit burnt out on the road and he won't he had offered opportunities and offer. Significant offers go back to may, and in may instead of human wrestling, five nights a week or four nights a week for WWE. He could fight to three times a year in MMA and make good money and be home training except for going for fight week or something. And so that's what we discussed. And, you know, when he left the doors open, you come back anytime we want, we don't wanna lose you. But we, we want we you're welcome to come back, and he never made this circle never got completed nerdy to come back, but he ended up good, good, good rapport with the company, but a lot of this because he got clean and sober because he's a different cat man. He's just, you know, you know, he's just eighty threatening. And he's, he's a dangerous some bitch. And, and I. I got a good before the now. Thank God, but boy, he was he wanted to go back and fight. He's, he felt like he left money on the table. And he had unfinished business to do in the octagon or cage. Whatever. And so that's what half. That's why the push kind of ceased we had a kind of back off of it 'til we could figure out. He's come to work on time regularly, and not getting because I wouldn't know nothing else after five thousand after weeks. Pave getting find what's left onto. I'll tell you what's let your terminate you right? Does the old Jimmy Johnson? Thanks use it all time. If I can't solve your problem I have no choice but for us to eliminate it. So that's what you give me. I got nothing. Got nothing live. So he had two chances little fine. Big fine. Now what's next nexus out of here, and he didn't want that to happen is embarrassing, but I think he he wanted to be home and, and fight. And so that's how that worked out. That's why the push has cut short tell you. He was very, very close in becoming a mega star in WWE, very, very close in my opinion, a getting over in a big way to, I'm talking about being a top the card at brussel, mania, whatever people believed in him as they should have because he was dammed share real. He wasn't playing the character somebody with a fictitious name. They didn't believe in any, he knew what it can do. And everything he did was so dense, smooth and realistic. And so he was that close now that close of becoming a major star and losing him to go back to may. Hurt us wasn't a good thing because we put a lot of. Money in a lot of time. So that was the deal Kenny shamrock, and I got to work for him nowadays. You know, he's clean and sober. He looked great clear eyed God, dang still looks like he could put me by his ass in room type thing. So big fan of Kim Chan rot. But we ended grow together. And we did so the next matches power really here. It's undertaker and mankind. And the Helena sale, you've got to go back to nineteen Ninety-seven, and he sees the undertake your take on Shawn Michaels and the ferry I Helena, cellmates October ninety seven it really changed cage matches just a phenomenal man's five-star, mats, and the wrestling observer in everyone who saw would agree, just what are the absolute greatest mashes of all, Tom and in that match we saw Shawn Michaels about halfway down the cage, take a bump through the announce table, and now the stakes have been raised. So we've got another hell in a cell, and Mick Foley is going to take it to a level that maybe it should have never been. Taken to, and we'll talk about it today, but nobody listing this has not seen this match one of the most famous matches in, in wrestling history. Not just W effort, everybody history. But all of wrestling history is sixteen minutes. It's unbelievable. Most people remember when the undertaker through mic off the cage. You said good God almighty, good God almighty that killed him as God as my witness he's broken in half. And we've talked about that, for years, you continued with this great commentary, and some people have said that the wrestlers play the music and the announcers provide the lyrics, and your lyrics here when he's getting off. The stretcher are how in the hell is he standing? And after it gets off the stretcher some minutes after being thrown off the cell, look at this. He's got a smile on his face for God's sake. Are you kidding me? He wants to go back up after he's choked slammed through the roof of the cell will, somebody stop the damn match after he's choked slammed again. Enough enough, the poor son of a bitch. He's broken in half after he goes through the thumb tax for the first time good. God, he looks like a human pin. Cushion. I mean this match is just one of, of wrestling folklore forever. And, and Mick Foley would write in his book, he had been tentatively scheduled the face stone cold the king of the ring and a special Helena cell match. Unfortunately, as a learned with the aid of a phone call the feeling was that Foley Austin three wooden. Vince Russo broke the news and as he did. I could feel my heart sank. I knew that mankind wasn't over. But I was hoping that the office wouldn't catch onto the current apathy for awhile in Russa's comments made me realize they have quote cactus, where just concerned that the audience won't buy another match with you and Steve. So I'm definitely out of the cell match. I said with a whole lot of sadness in my voice. No, no. An excited Russo. Corrected me. You're still in the cell. It's just the it'll be you in there with the undertaker now. Austin will wrestle Kane for the title. Mick says he was overjoyed but minutes after hanging up he started to feel as, if being in the sale will certain failure. I'm screwed. I thought I suck inside a cage. Undertaker has a broken foot. No one cares about me. And besides was the world really calling out for a sixth undertaker mankind, pay per view, encounter at that point, I had no idea. That it would become the most talked about match of mock career before we move on with what make wrote, do you think that the match would have looked totally different had? You went with the original creative of mankind and Austin in a cage, or do you think mankind would have still fully would've still kinda came around to this idea? Oh, I can't after seeing it calling it. And being there reliving it, you know, last year was the twentieth anniversary of that match. So there's a lot of above a lot of scuttled talk. Whatever you to say, I can't see anybody else doing it take her mic on that night made magic all the stars align. No doubt those two guys are always always had good chemistry. The one of the reasons I've told you this before Conrad's I use the old analogy of when the Lakers, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar playing on the low post of the Lakers. And if you're going to try to win the west and the NBA you'd better be able to defend the low post and have a defensive mind at artist Gilmore type guy L somebody that could defend Kareem. Well, we had a seven foot baby face it was over. But we were running out of viable opponents that could actually pose a somewhat realistic in viable threat. In the pro wrestling been accurate in the ring, and so forth. I can't see it being anybody else. I really can't. And the way that the Austin Kane match went the wild west show and all the all the blood and all the violence, and no cage was was. I thought extremely well, done for what they had to follow Austin and Cain with Austin and that staph infection in not been being wick, as a cat as recent Bowden would say the old TV announcer, it, Shreveport admits out bits out days. I felt like a plateful a piss. That's week, plateful a piss. I'll use that occasionally. Jim cornet reminded me that to the day, we did a promotion together, but it would not have been good his good. So I, I can't see a change. I, I like what happened and even though I don't condone what the how accurate about the injuries and so forth. But man, I can't these it'd be sacrilegious interesting since even think of anybody else in that L match on in June nineteen ninety eight oh, then the entertainer Mick Foley, just wouldn't work for me. Let's keep it going. He says before the match he sits down with Terry funk, believe it or not, at titans tower, and has the video department, get in the tape of undertaker Michaels from Helena, sell one, the Tober ninety seven months. And he says, by the way Conrad, excuse me, that was one hell of a match Sean and take her in Helena sale that match had a major major part of the audience understanding that Shawn Michaels has not only a great flyer. High spot guy, you know, the hurricane Ron, the drop kicks super kicks stuff off the top, blah, blah, blah, that a lot of smaller baby faces utilized resourcefulness cetera et cetera. But man, he proved how Tuffy was because in our commentary that came out very well. It show. Mincing it Shawn Michaels true to the world that he was not just says. Well, there's a lot of stake in his game in that match will take her that hill. The cell was a major part of that transformation in Evelyn Shawn Michaels in ring. Persona he was no longer just a, a technique guy. He was tough bitch any food that in that match. Great folks are not seeing that match. It's worth your time because they really to the greats of all time to all the fan guys to people that will always talk about in wrestling, they had one of their best night's together at that paper that event now back to just a diverted there. But the thought beings that Foley and take her head dick shoes to fill Nick, Nick headed for the role. Shawn Michaels, you do the math. Yeah. That's tough, and, and fully realized that he says when the finished watching it, he and fog, thank go several minutes. Not saying word, and then fine. Only Terry speaks up and sort of mumbles cactus that one's going to be hard to beat. I know. Plus I'm a hundred pounds heavier than showing I just can't do some of the things in that case that he can. And then they sat in silence for a couple of minutes, and then he broke the silence. What do you think I should do? And he's asking this of his friend has mentor and his hero, Terry Fong any mic. Awry, his answer, what helped make me professionally, and damn near break me physically, quote, I think he ought to start the match on top of the cage and fully would say, you'd think I would know better than the listen to Terry FOX, and we continue to talk on the way to the show. But it was mostly joking around goddamn, caq, the Falker said laughing, maybe you should just let him throw you off the top of the cage. Yeah. Shot back. They're not climb back up and he can throw me off again. Jack off one time for God's sakes, so sort of goofing around and any quietly says the Terry, I think I can do it. And he says he told the undertaker about a week out from the match that he was planning on starting the match on top of the cage, but undertaker didn't seem real positive about that idea. And then he said, I had to tell him otherwise if he walked out and saw me standing on the top and decided not to follow. He looked like he looked like a big dummy having to climb back down. So you asked him everyday for a week in everyday would shoot it down. And then the day before the Massey asked him again, and he shook his head and asked him a question, not as the deep and dark undertaker, but as a guy who had known him for eight years, and who over the course of some battles had developed a bond. And he said, Jack why are you so intent on killing yourself up there and he answered because I'm afraid the smash is gonna stink. You can't walk. And let's face it. I don't have any heat we've got a heck of a legacy to live up to an don't want this match to ruin it. If we can start it out hot enough. We can make people think we had a hell of a match even if we didn't take your thought it over, and then he could see him cracking. And he said, I'll think about it, and they parted ways. Now, let's get to the match. But before we do, I want to ask did you hear the rumblings that they're gonna start on top? And he's coming off because these days, the guys do a walk through. And so everything sort of talked about with each other, and the agents and, you know, they, they do this before doors, open, and fans can come in. Do you remember it ever being discussed ahead of time? I thought it was just a third rumor and glauca room talk because it was unbelievable. Somebody even consider doing something like that. It was unprecedented. There was no way to do it safely. There was no way to execute that maneuver and do it safe enough. Somebody some smart ass out there listening might say, well, they could had broken his foul with some kind of padding or whatever. Yeah, yeah. A lot of good etiquette for he can harness or something to. I don't know silly because he never wanna put the town. The position to where they there's no there's simply effect. There's no margin fair, there's going to be air. You can't do this, and not hurt somebody and the other issues that we already had also the bed elbow, bed wheels neck. We got take her with, you know, bone Spurs his foot all problematic. God, dang man, we didn't need to lose any more people. So I just I heard the, the idea this cashless gust. These lines. Hey, Jared mix latest idea is, I said, I'm afraid to ask, what are you thinking about starting doing something on top? Not starting. He soon doing something on top of the cage. So I didn't know how that was going to end or whatever I just thought, well, I'm trying to figure out my mind. How can he do that and not kill himself or at least be hurt? It'd be off work for a while. And maybe for a long while. So I just blew it off. I didn't think he'd more about it. I thought status erred. It's not gonna ever happen. So when it happened, I almost took a dump in my actually let's keep it moving here. He's talking about in his book, when he's on top of the cage, he comes out, he clowns up and he's looking back at the owl and he sees the entertainers really cool entrance and normally before, you know, he has a big bump. He gets a little scared, but it's what he called a good scare. Any says this is not a good scared at all. A says, in fact, I saw no chance for a happy ending. And I walked back to face the owl and take your was about to ascend. This is it. I thought Showtime, and he grabs him by the shirt and trunks. And he I'm it up here directly from his book, and suddenly, I was airborne sixteen feet high and falling fast as the Spanish announcers dough for cover. It was the scariest moment of my life, but almost a relief when a landed on the announcer table and felt crumple beneath my weight, I had missed the monitors which was. My biggest concern and landed about as perfectly as one could hope, for, but the impact that spun me halfway underneath a security railing, so that my legs were in the audience upper body. Meanwhile was covered with the breed of the table. At least I'm a stay as I enjoyed the attention. The worst is over. How was about as wrong in that assessment as a human being can possibly be? So before we talk about anything else that happened in the mass, he, he talks about, as he's laying their shoulders hurting. It's dislocated from the fall, if feels a dole pain in his kidney area, but he has this feeling of inner peace as people are trying to, you know, work on him and, and help him because he knows. He's, he's pulled it off. One of the things I thought about for the first time a couple of years ago. Is what if he missed? God hundred disaster. I mean he's been crippled and maybe maybe worse. Maybe dad, exactly the thing about it is see that all there was not where we were only the ring all that stuff was on the ice. There's little plywood thing plywood with right? Oroville thin would that just for the ring and the chairs stuff around the, the ice part of it was protective. There's no padding. So if he missed the table, whereas today would not break his fall to some small degree, you can only imagine what would have Kurd doesn't quite frankly. I don't know how you survived it a rebel. It may be this may be this. Maybe the worst case scenario for him if he had missed was, he would have been crippled and confined to a wheelchair for the rest days. But the other side of that equation could very easily have been it could benefit. Talapity. And so that's why I was a everything you heard me say man was unrehearsed. I didn't write shit down. I never did that. And I didn't know what he was what I didn't know he was going to go off at all. And I was mad I was pissed off. How how we as a as a ministration group from creative, or the Russo or the agent that match or whatever it was that we allowed that to happen. I was pissed off. It may no sense in a big pitcher and guarantee you, you Becca watch that show that the pay per view, folks, watch the when McMahon came out to check on mic. Breaking his appeal for Sona. You'll see a genuine concern on Vinci's face 'cause he realized mixed moving around moon, his legs, moon is arms, not knowing about the kidney and all this other stuff. I don't think he probably knew that his shoulder's dislocated the visit a strong as strong look concerns of ever seen him have because we knew that we probably made a mistake in doing that. And we knew that he knew probably it seems to me that we dodged, a big ass bullet. I mean I hate to be that guy. But if he misses in his head hits the guardrail that could've immediately killed him right away. It snaps his neck. He's done. I mean you know I to make a race comparison because I'm not a race scout. But I remember when Taylor Nhar Dodd I saw the crash, and I thought, well, I mean, the founded spectacular crashes not end over end. It's not this glamorous, fiery tumble that we've seen in NASCAR when guys walk away. So I like a lot of folks assumed oh, he's going to be fine. But that was the end, and it was because I mean, his, his neck was broken, and that was a ramp. And if his head hits that guardrail with that amount of distance at that way at that height. I mean, this, this could be another tragedy. Instead. I mean it was it was no easy task as it is. And Mick would rock climbing the sale with the dislocation shoulder was no easy task. But this time I wasn't scared or hesitant. I was running on a gentleman I was literally flying in Muhart as the undertaker in our race to the top. The crowd reaction was unbelievable. They had sworn the match was over, but they had just seen the damnedest thing in the history of the business. And now we were going to give them more. I mean when you see him get off the stretcher and climb up again. What's going through your mind? I thought, well, somebody's gonna pull him off the side of the case. Certainly this is not. Something this booked 'cause I don't know that it was book that way. I don't know. I don't know this very day that the plan was okay, mic off the top, this sale is going to go through downstate was going to the, the, the ice of the igloo or the penguins. Flay is going to break his fall, wink, wink. And then if he survives that we're going to do another spot physicist backup top. So he can fall through awkwardly, which is quite frankly, globules say what's more dangerous than the other deal? 'cause he was in control of the other one where he could he could do rotation. He turned and they landed. She said about as good as you can land. Look, you sail missed all the monitors and so forth. But then to go back up was is unheard of I was Paul but had happened scared. So what are we doing? This guy. We just come every crazy ass thing we'd get into. Do. And because Mick is Mick. He's not going to say, no, so I was angry. Man. I was pissed off and I didn't see the response. I didn't say the even the beginning people getting out there quick enough nowadays. There's a doctorate ringside. All these ws is a great job taking care of their athletes in that respect, but more then there was some holes in our armor in that regard. So I was pissed off. I just didn't didn't Mickey since you gotta understand I was pissed off as a TV Nassar JR us pissed off as the talent Jim Ross. We got a great commodity a great asset and we're descru- in with it. So I thought at that time that was not exactly the case. But in the moment of when the only guy running on DRAM, especially what he fell I was on. I was on that side is the best, I recall. And he was just a few feet when he hit it was. It was a horrid, horrid, and like you said, Conrad, what if what if this did not? Happen. What if you had had hit his head? What if you did get the full rotation and then going back up? He didn't have a chance to defend himself. He did have chance to take a bump that would allow him some protection in the way landed was just sickening. Signi. They made me. I got my sickening thud over the years because God dang man. It, it sounded like he was in a car wreck. I've got a check it out of the car, and there he'd lies again in a heap. What else can we do this for bastard? He would say if he could change one thing about the match it would be as next effort, which was dynamic exchange of punches, the top sixteen foot structure that would've sent the crowd into a frenzy. But instead, he stood there slug like as the entertainer, battered him without any retaliation, quote. He clubbed me across the back with a chair. And then unceremoniously dropped it on the cage. A really wish he would put it somewhere else then he grabbed me around the neck for the Gouzel or choke slam. And I don't remember a thing about the next two minutes as I watched the tape in great pain, the next day, it was the only time in fifteen years, I'd been knocked out cold Adleman, not goofy countless times. I'd seen stars and rainbows and black patches is a way of life for a long time. But this was the first time that a period of time elapsed, and I wasn't aware of it. Like I said earlier, however video and Tom helped me, not only see, but remember almost everything everything except what I was feeling as broke through the mash and crashed to the canvas looking back at. Now it was both the worst choke slam in the best choke slam. I'd ever taken the worst because it was the only time in my socio with the undertaker, but I hadn't even gone ha for the Gouzel as a matter of fact, one of my feet, never left the cage, the best because if I take an correctly, a might very well have been dead, as it was a landed hard on my back my neck and the back of my head. If I go and higher, I would've landed directly on my head and probably wouldn't be here or at least not in control of my limbs. It was indeed. A violent brutal fall made worse by the fact that I landed in one of the old federation rings which had very little give. Yeah. We, we, we, we changed that the scenario not too long after that, then at okay, that'll those rings for the super heavyweights dotted, the dub w landscape Beckett up one air time. And, you know, when you got big HOGAN was top baby face and all these big heels coming in, you know, to match up the bundy's of the world, so forth, that ring was hard, rock and talents. Hated it. When I first got that job. That's one of the things guy said hope you jail, you will address that God damn rings and I did. And so we, we got a more bump friendly ring. Sure. They're still use the same rings today, but they're more talent fronting for sure. But those rings are God dang. They're just there it was embarrassing that we didn't change the that we didn't change the rings earlier. Because the styles of more bumps and more high risk bumps were becoming more prominent. And so we did that, but the mic thing was certainly a catalyst to help us move to that direction. In a very rapid pace guest. It'll get rid of all those hearts of bitches and this, you know, get get a different ring Bubba. This is only issue was wondering, though, so noisy that was distracting, but we, we got brings a Branly and almost too late. We got it done. To make matters worse. Mick would write the chair was placed on the cage and followed my body down, and smashed into my face from a height of twelve and a half feet, the blow to my face would result in one and a half teeth being knocked out at this, located jaw, and hole beneath my lip that I can stick my tongue. Thirty Francois in the teas tried to help me as a lamb back in my arms outstretched to my legs, sickly twisted to one side. Now later asked the undertaker what he thought when he looked down at me from atop the cell is answer was chilling in its simplicity. A thought you were dead, Terry funk, was there to meet him, and willingly took a choke slam to give me one more time to get up TV showed multiple replays, falling through the cage, and when they came back I was on mafi but just barely. I don't believe it said a stunned JR, he's either crazy or the toughest SOB I've ever seen four keep going to do and ask you hear JR was Mick Foley, the tough. Man you ever met in wrestling? I mean, I know there's lots of stories about bad asses, and, you know, this guy or that guy, but could anybody has anybody ever taken more punishment than Mick Foley in wrestling? Not that I've not the die. Encountered is the difference in being a tough in context talking about here and being the baddest dude land sure Nick Foley's, not the baddest dude in the land is he would readily admit, but I'd never seen if he's, he's a classic definition. Conrad being tougher than a two dollar steak. He is a never seen by the good that has was in so much Fain more often than not. He was paying all the time. And he was in pain. And he had been in pain, a lot more often than not before he we hired him in. He's taking elbows off, these slamma gowdy outside. There's no matter out there. He gets on the outside. He runs down the, the apron of the ring and doesn't be flying elbow in his hip, would always hit the concrete to break his fall, and you can do that once movie hell he did it on a regular basis, simulate for years. So you can only imagine how that pain manifested itself over over time. So. Yeah. If there's some tougher in the respect to standing of being able to withstand pain, I never met him mix of top of the list. It's unbelievable. The entertainer through pints Meltzer Meltzer, folly would Ryan, I went down, slowly may have been the saddest bump ever taken because there was no strength left in my body. I don't wanna sound dramatic or Pat myself on the back, but I really had been standing on sheer will alone now as I lay in a heap. It seemed that even my will was going, Jack. Let's go home. The undertaker quietly said to me. No, I'm okay. I replied, of course, take your winds up winning the match. And as we know there was a thumb tack, bump, and just all kinds of craziness and Mick would ri- I lay there for a few minutes, and as Francois, the funk and referees checked on my condition. The EMT's brought a stretcher to the ring, and he asked Mike yet, and you can see this on camera was already ostrich or wants tonight, and key, Yoda says, yes, Jackie were, and then he says, then can you help me up? I don't want to be on a stretcher. Terai. Twice in one night, which is unbelievable. But as he's helped to the back with a key ODA and Terry Faulk assisting the fans start to chant Foley, Foley, and JR summed it up. How can anyone not admire the effort of this man? Mankind, Mick Foley is beyond me. And he would right? When I walk through the curtain, I was met by sound of applause from the remaining wrestlers in a hug from Vince McMahon, despite recent media, portrayals events. He was genuinely concerned with my will being responded by talking way too much way too fast and way too intelligent for a guy who had just been through. Hell he had to have known that I was messed up. I was almost like a drunk driver trust too hard to act sober that gives himself away my entering conversation with Mike iota was not the only one I fail to recollect several days after the match I asked the entertainer, if I'd spoken him afterwards, he laughed, as he recalled our conversation that I use them. Tax out there as apparently went out, come out with he looked at me still covered with the damn things and said he s you did Jack. Yes, you did. Oh, good. I replied and walked away as evenings, not over yet, though. France wise to put his shoulder back in his sock it, he's got to help get his bearings. And I can't believe this is real. But he's gonna come back out for the main event. The main of this is not the main event. Unbelievably we've still got another match on this show. Kane is going to win the world title from Steve Austin, which on any other show would be all anybody talks about its canes first world title win. Just debuted at the company, October and fast forward, you know, six or eight months, and he's now beating the hottest act accompany company ever had in a first blood match. As a result. It doesn't matter what type of effort, these guys had in the match no one talks about it because of the manse that just happened before, but Meltzer gave it three and a quarter stars it is interesting because I. The blood match with a guy who is completely covered including them, ask. But maybe that's why you know, they're trying to paint the store. They are that, of course he's got to overcome all these incredible odds, including being covered. But even after all the hill that main cons been in, he comes up for this match as does the undertaker in hindsight, JR demand, coming back out, add to the story or should that have been fucking hit. Well, you know, again, I was screaming the whole damn thing that I would have said that I would have said, no because in, in today's WWE in today's probably a lot of other companies, he would not have had the opportunity to come back out. No matter what was booked, right cost. Again. We've not talked about anything about concussions here. We haven't talked about concussion protocol, we have talked about CTE, none of that stuff. So knowing what we know now from a medical standpoint, these athletes, and he's head injuries traumas there's no way he would been clear to go back out there. So I believe that. Did he add to the in? Yeah. Especially where we're going with other things and other programs so forth, the that made sense. But in that have been done on another night, of course, it could some way. So I, I believe that he should have been shut down at that point in, in today's world he absolutely would be. And I agree with that today's world you see who knows man. How many, you know, I'll, I'll always troubles me about Nick, you know, is older. He gets is he is it going to be good. But his mind are all these concussions and chair shots. And all these amazing things he's done to his. Body. What toll is going to take on him in the future in that concerns me to this very day, concerns me. So answer your question, easy for me. No. He would not have been sent back out that a call a little bit of an audible of been easy to do. Bottom line is mystery man was going to facilitate the win. Bob, blah, blah. So. But that's just mic. Man. It was it was here's mic as a players coach of a great coach great player to coach for those guys and creative and so forth because he'll do anything and he's got good logic about doing things. He can do well, but we, we need to shut him down on that deal and we didn't. And thank God, you know, he didn't get hurt any worse out there. I don't guess would you know, but it was scared. Same Beck out there and got him out. We won't attorney baby face at some point. And we did. You know, that's those are all these great reasons that people start believing in mic. You know, he's he's tough. He's, he's a he's amazing. He does things nobody else can or will do any survived it somehow so now for me, today's world shutdown, you're done could take a shower. Let's get you to the hospital mic would write in his book that Vince came to see him in his locker room and said, make I want you to know how much we appreciate everything you've done for this company. But please promise me that I'll never see. You do anything like it ever again. I do want to mention to you, this main event with Kane on the build up to this first blood match the stipulation as Kane loses, he's going to set himself on fire and pray. This last breath. But we know that doesn't happen. He becomes the world champion, Vince McMahon. Or Mr McMahon is very pleased with that. And the next night on raw at the gun Derina in Cleveland, it's another sell out sixteen thousand five hundred and five fans and incredible eight hundred sixty six grand, the show opens with Vince Briscoe and slaughter coming out to present Cain with the world title, interestingly enough. It's not the same, quote unquote. Big eagle. The new design that Austin had been using it is the old school. Reggie parks, made winged eagle that Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart and guys like that held before Austin later in the show. Of course, we know Austin that's going to pin Kane to win the world title for the second time the entertainer, it comes to the ring during the match an. After the match he gets in the ring awesome, gives them the stunner that sets up the collision course, for summer slam, which I'm sure we'll cover at some point talk to me about the creative to have Austin lose the title on pay per view. And then when it back the next night is this to you. Normally these surprises these quote unquote swerves were for television while the title change on a pay per view. Is it just to set up the rematch for all and Papa big writing, because if so it works route as a five point three six and nitro does a four point. Oh, five in winds up being the third highest rating in the history of all up to that point. Oh, well. The that finished the first finish the first time I was exposed to the first blood finish. Conrad was in the mid south territory. We had a three hundred pound baby face top baby face name, the cowboy Bill watts and he was very strategic and how he lost. Because he said, why are you building your ice? I 's question. I guess. Why are you building everything around? You can he say kid on the only some of its year. I can depend on in a said everything. I've got Friday on his territory. Okay. That makes sense. But the first blood stipulation. Was set up to get a win for the other guy, not the bleeding the other guy and more often, or not, it was the other guy he'll using brass knuckles or foreign object or whatever, and in helping get the color or a post shot or whatever Beck in those days. Get running a guy's head or body into the ring. Post was disqualification now even a clenched fist is. Okay. And sometimes people wonder why the businesses not so emotional or dramatic because there's no God rules anymore. If it was a while we need rules. So the God him he'll says something to break, and they don't do it in front of if you do it in front of the referee. It means nothing it means nothing it, it just makes no sense. So. I I just I the first thing was no territory finish. It was a way to protect the baby face and still get the win on the heel. And that's kind of the situation there with the with Steven Kane, would you want to beat Steve in a one-two-three situation? So it came up the stipulation a gimmick match, if you will. And it seemed to you know I had a lot of drama the fans like the blood, we were doing a little bit then, you know, more than probably maybe should have. But nonetheless, the attitude air had a lot of juice in it for that for that, that time. So I, I just I just it was a it was a good finish for that. If protected Steve, it didn't hurt Cain, and facilitated, this is a role as on those powerful summiteers, still you. You're not Austin, this is my company on the boss and you're gonna work for my ass. And some of these days, I'm gonna break you. That was the whole deal. So I didn't. Didn't have a problem with the finish now. I don't remember what our dialogue was, but I believe the decision to put the Bill Beck on St. the next night was something that we had discussed going into this thing, pretty, pretty good time in advance once the first let stipulation was finalized, we knew that Austen's going to lose the title now. So the question was always wanted to get it back in Vince idea was we get it back Monday night. So that was a deal. I don't know everything done on on TV's for rating. When we go on in October, when Awa goes on TNT on a weekly basis, it's going to be about the ratings. If you're nature of the business, it's still about the reading, sir WVU money night ratings ratings. They follow that stuff crazy as they should. But I, I think that I don't know specifically for the ratings, but the ratings are always a component that s to be taken consideration. And for those of us who try to say, oh, it's not what ratings, it's all creative. That's bullshit. Ratings are always a top priority. Well, there are topper our here. We hope that you guys are leaving us a five star rating and telling your friends to hit the subscribe button, and telling them about the great episode that was king of the ring nineteen ninety eight I had a lot of fun today and hope you did, too and hope you'll tune in next week when we're going to revisit the American dream dusty Rhodes as only Jim Ross can explain spent decades together and that's what we're remembering him this week. It feels fitting that we're going to pay tribute to him next week and ironic to Conrad. Now, I'm working for son, Cody in aid of you and other people to cody's big big part of what I do. And I just I'm so happy. I got that opportunity. I'm even happier that I got to call the Cody destined match at double or nothing. It was one of the best matches I've ever called up because of my work because the, the performance of the talents, the setup hole. Oh nine yards and I can only speculate. But I can do it pretty convincingly that the dream was watching, and he loved it, 'cause it was it had some juice. It had it had some violence, this aggression. They told us kiss two guys kiss me those to do still too great story. And so after I'm almost going full circle. Now the roads family. I'm back back with them and they'll, they'll add to our storytelling next week. I can't wait to have that show because it's one of my favorite topics. I don't I forgot that had a body lock their dream to be a superstar globally. I saw thing on Twitter this week, a sophis- openness in Japan. And I won't Twitter at JR s BBQ Conrad, hey, hey, it's Conrad, right talk. Conrad a it's great Conrad's, great follow. I ain't bad, but I saw a footage of him does. Dusty him making goddamn JR. I'd have Throwdown kill Scott. David starts with us that he made a comeback. He being dusty again. Contact Bobby chewed out twice. Now in this thing, goddamn, pal that he made a comeback on STAN Hansen in hulk HOGAN. And it is a hell of a piece of footage. It does two things socio he'll see to come back and how an impassioned baby face does it because dusty was delivered knows Vanek elbows in STAN Hansen in hulk HOGAN, where we're feeding and selling like two drunk men. It was amazing. But that's a charisma dusty had and for those that have followed it we'll talk about next week. I'm telling you that I'm a big fan of tag team wrestling, what's no secret here. But I'm also going to tell you that one of the top five teams, I ever saw my life was Texas outlaws Murdoch in roads, there were dick bird Aachen, dusty were just as so we have made their magic magical, so we're talking about that too should be a great show. You know, just going through dusty life before he got into to wrestling. He went to goddamn ever college in Texas about a semester. It was just funny. You tell stories you know, near went to class is play ball, so then his grades commute semester, needed flunk. So he had he was ineligible. Now the next time. So he go to school start over same deal. He was funny man. And Lafayette don't realize Conrad dusty was a hell baseball player that body has he may not look like a baseball player that some gun was a great baseball player. Plus, he one hundred dollars for horse in June Crockett's driveway. I'm out have been drunk, but I'm not going to say right now. Also, I'll say there for next week. Listen there so much. You can just tell the passionate in your voice talking about dusty rights next week is going to be a great episode. Today was a great episode. Tell your friends about the new format here on Jim Ralston's podcast, grilling JR, don't forget to hit the subscribe button, leave us a review and we'll see next Thursday in every Thursday at six AM eastern right here on the mighty. Westwood One with grill in jail or.

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As Amish Leave Farming For Other Work Some Leave Their Homestead

NPR's Business Story of the Day

04:47 min | 1 year ago

As Amish Leave Farming For Other Work Some Leave Their Homestead

"This message comes from NPR sponsor. Comcast Business Gig fueled network solutions that help businesses go beyond the expected to do the extraordinary Gary comcast business beyond fast learn more at comcast business dot Com Lancaster County Pennsylvania is home to the biggest settlement of Amish the people in the United States now that community is growing fast and some of its members are leaving farms and moving into towns. Some towns have had to change their zoning laws laws so amish people can bring things like horses along with them. Rachel McDevitt of member station W. I t. f. has a story kids. There feeding chickens and goats outside of busy bees farm market in Lancaster county a Little Open Air Red Barn traditional amish farm stand stocked with fresh produce soft pretzels and handmade crafts every few minutes a horse and buggy passes by Kissel ESPINEL is visiting reading from New York City with her parents had just really fascinated dommage community and how they live my parents grew up in a farm obviously wait different from this but very very similar vibe but most amish people in Lancaster County are no longer working on farms. The price of farmland has risen from about eight thousand dollars an Acre acre a few decades ago to twenty thousand dollars today and fewer and fewer amish farming the majority were outside the home in businesses and construction and so they're moving into towns Strasburg Township Supervisor Michael Weaver is driving a black jeep wrangler on whiny back roads past farms and small clusters of homes spaced well apart. This is a prime example right here. He stops outside one fairly modest beige ranch house with what appears to be a large garage or a small barn. It's a carriage house with room for two horses and a buggy plot of ground butts no more than a half. Acre it used to be needed one acre of land per horse to keep the animal on your property but township zoning board was getting inundated with requests for exceptions from Amish moving onto smaller lots so the supervisors voted to allow up to two horses for the purpose of transportation to be kept on a half Acre Weaver says the rule change was made as a compromise between the Amish and who they call the English or non Amish. I have seen a cultural clash between between the Amish community and the English the religious group nearly doubles in size every two decades and it's starting to feel a little crowded in Lancaster county where Amish are about seven percent of the population to chat lap who has amish changes in township rules aren't enough to help his people continue. Can you their lifestyle. There's just so much more late. The focus is on on okay now. We did half Acre for two horses good for you. It's not gonNA last long. As my point lap describes himself as a mad visionary he got his real estate agents license several Oh years ago and he's been helping families move out of Lancaster County as they look for more space and affordable farmland now. He's actively scouting neighboring counties for new settlements. Let's and finding people interested in moving. He says it's a matter of identity. He wants to see more of his people moving to protect their faith and culture from the mainstream name. That influence comes back into the period. You can't change that but many are tied to the land. A local amish man says though he's had family members move. He's never considered leaving. We're not naming him because most amish don't allow recordings of themselves or religious reasons. This man fears backlash clash from his community if they knew he had allowed it as he sits at the end of his driveway his big white farmhouse just out of view. He says his ancestors have been in the county thiessen eighteen hundred he started this farm in nineteen seventy five richer here. Our ancestors are buried here. We feel attached this. It's part of our heritage but the realtor. Chet lab believes the Amish will evolve by either embracing more of the modern world or safeguarding the traditions of their faith outside of their historic homeland for NPR news. I'm Rachel McDevitt in Lancaster County Pennsylvania This message comes from NPR sponsor. Comcast Business Gig fueled network solutions that help businesses go beyond the expected acted to do the extraordinary comcast business beyond fast learn more at comcast business dot com.

Lancaster county comcast Amish Com Lancaster County Pennsylva Rachel McDevitt Gary comcast NPR Supervisor Michael Weaver Lancaster County Pennsylvania Strasburg Township NPR United States Kissel ESPINEL Chet lab New York City twenty thousand dollars eight thousand dollars seven percent two decades
Burnout is Real Among Social Media Managers

Social Pros Podcast

41:14 min | 10 months ago

Burnout is Real Among Social Media Managers

"You can't unburned burge toast because once burnout you're out. It's pretty much just kind of done. So really what we need to do is work together to prevent it and so this clearly obviously isn't just a museum social media manager problem. It's a wider social media. Eighty manager problems. Adam that's certainly true you can't You can't unburned toast and you can't unscramble an Omelet All of that is true. And why what breakfast food stay by the way media so breakfast themed show. This is a different kind of show this week on the social pros. PODCAST WE talked with Louis Burden McDevitt. who used to be the social media manager for almost a decade at the children's Museum of Indianapolis and she leads a giant facebook facebook group of Museum Socia- managers and and she's working a lot now on this idea of burnt out in the social media managers community in self care and no not not stressing yourself out to the degree that you're like enough? I gotta get out of the social media industry and it is. It is a real danger. You work with a lot of social. A social media manager is part of your job at salesforce. This is a real issue. And I'm so glad we're able to spend some time with Lori. And this week's episode of bringing to the forefront Lord gives us I think j such a great perspective effective on this. This is almost like three shows at one. We have the great opportunity of Laurie to talk to us about doing social for a an NGO or our nonprofit like museum Ziam. We have her talking about being a steward of a facebook group of four thousand members. And then as you said this really important messaging around burn burn out that we as Social Media Practitioners and quite frankly people in a lot of other industries are dealing with and how we see some of the social platforms acknowledging this recognizing this and the challenges of feeding the content final each and every day. But there's so much to still to be learned and discussed about. This and Laurie really gives us an interesting vantage point. Yeah if you've ever gone home at the end of the day that boy. I really bought bit off a lot more than I wanted to chew here. In this social media job this is going to be the episode for you as Lori. Bird McDevitt joins us this week on the social pros podcast returning this week. Rose guest are fantastic sponsors including in salesforce marketing cloud who have a terrific e book called Fifty Social Media Best Practices. You can get it right now. Won't cost you thing they're gonNA give it to you absolutely for free because as you listen to social pros you can get bitterly slash tips fifty social. I'll give that to a little bit more slowly. B. I t. dot l. y. slash ti APS. Five zero social. You should down that. It's Good Adam. Hoge put it together. Terrific piece work. Also the tweaks show brought to you by your friends. Emma email service provider down there Nashville Tennessee. They do all the things that you want. From an email service provider they send email people get the email stats analysis marketing automation nation landing pages lisp leading all the tactical stuff. That you want to do to make sure your emails optimized for success but what I really like most about Emma is that you can actually talk to a living human being gene which sounds self-evident. But boy I tell you what a lot of companies out there who are in the software business and you WANNA actually talk to somebody thing. I work like try to get AMI's Joe. Someone from Amazon Amazon on the phone for example. That's not gonNA happen Emma's great crew really terrific group of people. There'd be happy to help you go to my Emma Dot com slash. Jay is awesome learn more. That's m. y. e. m. m. a. dot com slash. Jay is awesome all case to find out how they can help you or the person but in your organization. Let's talk this week to Lori. Bird McDevitt all about facebook groups burnout in social media media and Best Practices for museum social media. Managers is is as Adams three three three three shows in one here social pros podcast Lori Bird McDavitt. Welcome to social pro. Thanks for being here for having me. We like to have you on your experience so interesting because you have been on the museum side of social media you in addition to being the CO founder of the the Digital Services Social Media Consultancy Nine hundred nine digital located in Indianapolis not too far from where I sit right now. You were also the head of social media for the the Indianapolis Children's museum which is the largest children's museum on the planet or something like that and and what I find super amazing that you're the CO founder of the Taste Book Group for Museum. Social Media Manager is and you may think Jesus why is there a facebook group for that. But there's like thousands of people in four thousand four in the group and in an extra or co founder. I think was Ryan Dodge. who was a guest on this podcast at one point when he used to be at the Royal Antero Museum up there in Toronto Canada? So thank you so much for being here. We really appreciate taking the time the latch tell us a little bit about the museum. Social Media World and and how it differs differs from what some of our listeners might work more on the company side of social comparisons and contrast there. I mean if you really you think about it. Museum social media managers have really weird jobs. So you take the craziness of your typical social media manager and you had lots of quirky forty collections objects very opinionated visitors possibly climbing on his objects and the possibility of controversy. That's Tidier Museum Komo could be erupting at any moment I mean I could go into a really quick day in the life of the museum social I mean so if you think about it because their collections are often so vast We could tie to almost any trending topic or holiday you can think of so. That's an embarrassment crispin riches but on the other side there's this flood of programs exhibits and competing internal promotional content. That they're having to manage manage every day so they're not able to be really deliberate in a campaign or content plan It's a constant struggle to keep your head above water in that way And then on the other side museums a lot of them are what you would think they would be would be a little bit behind the times with a lot of their stacks. So they're slow to understand and a lot of social media best practices or simply dismissed the job as if anyone can do it. It's really hard to get them up to speed in that way on the C.. Suite still is thinking of social media. Managers generally speaking as lesser. They or in a giving them fewer resources and that's really frustrating end similarly to any social media manager they are the front line digital customer service on top of everything else. They're still doing twenty four seven monitoring but Museums often are major tourist attractions. So there's endless. Comments questions reviews at one conference that I went to a On the major. DC Museum described tracking visitor. INSTAGRAM stories. As I can only qualify that with overwhelm right. There's just so much to keep track of with such little time men. Of course there's the expectation to be human think about museums and how diverse and unique they are and the very specific tones that you can have as a museum and putting your humanness into back. So there's that level of vulnerability there and my friend Russell Dornan. He had been at the he is now at. Va Dundee. He had been at the wellcome collection and has really built up their accounts and establish their cheeky risky tone. I really encourage you to look up on the welcome collections on accounts. And he said putting your heart online or on the line leaves it exposed so every cruel jibe aimed organization really cuts you like a knife and so that's what easily leads to burn out so don't even get me started on prices. Communications and controversies. That could be a whole other episode. I'll come back for that one. Nobody wants wants to hear that their baby is ugly even if they know their baby is ugly. And and in your case because you worked for a museum which has a children's museum you have the added sort of wrinkle of many of the patrons being children right and content being created by miners and you've got Children's Online Privacy Protection Act regulations a number of other circumstances that even other people in the museum social media business wouldn't have to contend with at least not at the same level. It is interesting what you said about Executives and museums not fully understanding either the role of social and or the benefit of social. Do you think that they continue to spend money on visitor attraction in what we might consider to be yesterday's yesterday's tactics or do they just feel like mass. Social media isn't really that important or it's not that hard. We could get anybody to do it. There's definitely it's a little bit of both. There's definitely the intern mentality. A little bit still am speaking in generalizations allegations. There's definitely a lot of great museum. CEOS that are making strides but generally with museums. We like to say it's like turning the titanic around it's just a big entrenched sort of thinking. So yeah it is very much you know focused on doing the almost in in some ways trying to remain relevant is a big question so it is focusing on the entertainment aspect in some ways ways depending on what type of museum it is And there's that balance there of what's going to drive visitors in And it's I'm trying to build an understanding of how social media plays into that and so social media managers in museums specifically always trying to make the point that we are that I touch point digitally out there. She your customers to your visitors so give us that those resources to be the brand to bring people in and increasingly. If you don't get that I touch point right you're not GonNa get the second touch point. I mean that's that's the point that I think people don't quite understand a and like you know you get one chance to make a first impression and that first impression is now handled via Google or facebook or instagram right. It's it's not the well they. They bought a ticket. And that's the first impression knob row. That's like the seventh impression. It's that whole zero moment of truth. premise that being said even with those limitations and challenges with resources and support psychologically emotionally some of the greatest social media campaigns in history have come from museums and and museum social media practitioners. There's this sort of work against all odds we're GONNA do amazing things. And and you have seen so many of those chronicle them and celebrated them inside the Muse social community talk a little bit about the community and strengthen its our in how it was created and how it's evolved over time. Yes yeah so as you mentioned Ryan Dodge formerly from the royal on -Tario Museum He is one of my dear friends and back around twenty thirteen. I would say they'll so long ago we just realized we kind of tired of us being frustrated with nothing in competition with one another and we realized we wanted to be supportive of one another so we created this facebook art museum social media managers and it has just grown and grown really fast. As you mentioned it's over four thousand people now And we bent a lot to one another We share resources. We Claverie as you mentioned and so one of my favorite examples of collaborative project is back when alternative facts were an issue shoe a couple of years ago and just a couple of Of the social media managers in the group said you know we as museums need to stand up and do something and so they came up with the Hashtag Hashtag Day affects and on one day museums across the United States. All Aw simply stated backs on twitter and it got national attention in major newspapers new Washington Post List and things like that and it really did make an impact and when you really think about it when all the nations or even sometimes the world's Suicidal media managers in museums decided to thing people are going to listen and so that is what really makes me proud of this group that we can pull together other in that way in addition to supporting one another When we otherwise aren't supported in our museums when I when I saw the Hashtag Cap Buzzer? It looks like day off axe different thing entirely. What the things you do the things you do on your day off is not the same day of facts but now together now? Oh yes that makes more more sense exactly so the museum people they use correct punctuation all of their Hashtag X. at them go ahead it's laureates so mad I too and that's one of the things I like about that program that here. We are social media professionals using social media to bring people together other not necessarily about our organization or our product. I that was one of the things that I truly appreciated on the success that you had with the day FACS ax initiative. One of the things that I think interests me about your space is the fact that number one most host social media professionals in the museum space have multiple hats. They're having to wear you articulated that very well. The other thing is primarily. You'll everyone would think from the outside that the social media manager of a museum is there to draw visitors and to draw ticket cells and things like that but just as import it in many many instances is around development or fundraising. And that's a huge part of the museum kind of model and I'm curious how all social media managers reconcile with that other side. which is how do we get people who can give donations? And and and be it'd be contributors to the Museum Ziam and how all that fits into the the social media program. Yeah we do have to be very careful about how we balance all of those different factors and the different goals in social media and also having that authentic voice so so really. It's taking the goals of all the different departments around the museum and Development and fundraising is just one of the many goals that social media he manages are always contending with It's not necessarily the social media manager making those decisions about the messaging even or what. The campaigns are they might have a say in it. But it's really that that mix of what is going out But we always want to to have that layer of authenticity on there and have Just that human aspect to it so of of course there's crowd funding of course there's Giving Tuesday which museums take a major. Pardon we've realized that but the it's flooded on that day so it's not very successful but so we come together around that and we actually the four thousand of must decide. Is this actually a viable day for us. You know. That's one of those things that we can talk about together. But yeah it's it's all just part of of the mix of promotions the trending topics. What's going to be relevant for the audience and sometimes they don't want to be Asked for money through twitter so we have to make that argument back to our development teams. You mentioned this group of four thousand members. There's an having any sort of organization of your peers. I think is so critical and I think when you look at that and you also look at the other thing thing that you brought up of of burnout of the challenges that we have a social media practitioners in people understanding while we do may be our managers it may be our leadership leadership and the challenges of that. Do you find that that membership roster in group is good for venting or is there some more other different for types of therapeutic bid if it's that come from being associated with with like minded people who have have challenges. Are you creating any kind of new programs to help help them. Kind of feel the that the uniqueness of their position in the that. They're not unique in the burnout. Yeah it's been really interesting to see the conversation ebb and flow around self care and burn out lately. And that's really what I've been on a little bit of a mission to bring to light more recently Is the misuse of the term. burnout actually That really people. Oh keep putting the impetus on be employees to solve the problem And so that's why we're going to Groups like facebook groups to you have that support system but really what I'm finding as I'm looking out into the broader like writings of other people is that putting it on the employees really victim shaming actually It really needs to be put back on the employer to be proactive in their approach to helping find net space for social media managers to you know have their wellbeing bought about and so I found this recent article in looking looking outside of the museum. Social media managers fear From writer in a social media pro L. A. Dawson but just hit recently and it really resonated with me in this metaphor she said was You can't unburned birch toast because once you're out you're burnout. It's pretty much deer just kind kind of done So really what we need to do is work together to prevent it and so this clearly obviously isn't just a museum social media manager problem. It's a wider lider media manager problem And in fact even further out than that. There's Dr Zubin Domon yet. Talks about it being Moral Injury in the healthcare profession. So do you think about a saying that social media managers are on the front lines. It's just not much not much different than being at war thinking about the PTSD coming back at war and you want to go and have this. The moral understanding of what you know is right but you have to deal with the worst of the worst and social media. Managers often have to do that to you. Go out every day. Twenty four seven and you have to deal with the trolls of the Internet. The worst of the Internet and but on the happy face and you never get to let up so I like there's a lot of parallels there obviously we're not going to war. I don't WanNa try to equate that A. There's just a lot to be learned from Some of these these different phrases and what these different fields are talking about. It's clearly not our niche. It's not even just social media managers. It's it's nurses dealing dealing with burnout. It's a lot of other fields dealing with this and my friends seem row. She wrote a book literally called Self Care For museum workers. So there's were. We're already trying to solve the problem. So that's a great One of her points she makes is that we don't have to wait. It should be that the whole structure changes changes. That's what really needs to happen eventually. But in the meantime it really just falls to the managers advocating for their employees For colleagues advocating versus media managers and Really managers helping make time for their for their employees to have that self care time time and not being afraid to talk about burnout themselves Sharing challenges is a sign of weakness. And by talking about it. More it removes removes the stigma around it so I think that's really important that we're all talking about Even when I recently Shared a blog post about this. Yes I had people just come out of the woodwork in droves. I was really shocked because I was kind of venting but it really resonated. I had a colleague from the Dallas Museum of art. WHO said that? My blog just flew around his department that day and it was the first day in forever that their whole team went home at five pm and then he noticed a a true change in how his whole team treated their social media manager in really respected more after that and that really that impacted me the most so so I think that really it's just about understanding and talking about it is really that I will make sure link up some of the resources that Lori mentioned at Social Pros Dot Com so you can go and dig a little deeper and learn more about these issues and I would argue that that just organizationally. One of the challenges is that in most to museums. There is a social media manager and it is a department of one. It's not like there's a whole bunch of people and if you're out sick or you wanna take time someone can cover for you. Obviously your results may vary based on the size of your museum and and your budget but typically in my experience there is a person right and so you were doing all all things right. You're like you're you're every single conceivable job. So that is really hard and the relentlessness of that is is definitely a part art. The burnt out that Lori mentioned and that's why facebook groups like the one you've created the museum social media. Managers are so important because in an enterprise setting some of the clients that Adam works with its sales for our since the clients that we work with at commits a convert. There may be two four six eight twenty twenty-five social media managers or whatever. The circumstances are devoted a different channels or different regions. But but you got a posse right and and working every day in an organization where Oh you got snow posse and we've got this sinking suspicion that your boss neither understands nor cares about what you do is not necessarily the recipe for coming home. Every renite feeling that your work has purpose and meaning so Some of it is just a structural challenge with museums. And just how they staff Social Social Media because of this movement around self care and the now very very very large facebook group that has taken up some of these challenges and questions. Do you have specific tips for social bras listeners. Many of whom we are of course social media managers museums are otherwise. Do you have specific self-care tips that you would say you know what to help you. Avoid getting burnt out in your social social media career. Here's some things that had you thought this through earlier you would have made sure to have done years ago when you were just GonNa get started in this. I I would definitely say that in keeping in line with the argument about putting the impetus on your employer rather than yourself else that having a conversation about your needs upfront is really important. I know that when I had opportunity to start a new role as a social media manager I had a very frank conversation with my boss first thing and said you know I have custody with my son. These are the weeks that he's at my home. This is when I'm not monitoring and we really talked through just for an example I think that's really important again. Just taking the stigma away and talking about the challenges and making sure that they will advocate for you and using this conversation. That's happening right now using resources like this like with articles like Elyse To share around and say look this is a conversation that's happening and I would like your support uh-huh and then once you have that foundation you know it's not to say that you shouldn't also provide self care for yourself So I know that there's different things for everyone I've been reading a lot of books myself lately and I swear to goodness everyone says to meditate. Ah I really have been trying to more. It's really hard when you have small kids a busy life but you know I actually really trying myself Breathing a lot. Even just breathing helps. I've learned But yeah just taking that time to to think positively positive energy out into the world positively will come back around to you. I really do feel that. That's really true and I know that other people people have lots of different ways that they do try to unplug and that just has to be whatever works for you. I have not found the secret sauce for myself. With it's crazy. Heard Right win win the whole reason you have the job because you're so good at staying plugged in and then ironically the way to make sure you don't don't get sick and tired of the job and actually do real harm to yourself is to unplug like you know it's for a lot of social media managers say you should unplug so you can like chill out that's like saying you should stop breathing. Heating air right it just. It is very very difficult to do. I find myself struggling with it. Social Media Manager in the Classic Sense Right. It's just it's just really really hard Adam. We should do a show on meditation like literally like how to do meditation for Social Media. Professional team told they make that happen to be great. No I love that. You know. It's an IT's tangentially. Actually related to that Lori is the company I work for. SALESFORCE IS A and Mark Benny off our our our CASSIA founder. Meditation is a big part part of of of his passion enthusiasm. It's something that he's tried to to bring to our organization as well so can agree more. Lor You have have a really interesting vantage point and and all this and what. What what you're sharing with US resonate so much I know you and Ryan were selected to be part of FACEBOOK's first facebook community summit to represent your group of these Ian Social Media Professionals? I think we've recently heard in the news how other social platforms platforms are looking at the relationship with their content creators. You to really trying to to help fix and respond to burn out for video content creators on their on their platform. I'm curious if you're seeing any more actions or activities from the social media platforms themselves house to either a acknowledge kind of what we're talking about here and be. Are they doing anything about it. Yeah I really have not necessarily really seen any actions from other platforms really talking about this. I feel like it's really been a grassroots effort from social media professionals themselves if they are I'd love to see it I just really have been interested in the the dark social aspect of it and online communities themselves as that way to organize and and find those opportunities to support one another kind of going back to your organization you your co founder of nineteen o nine digital and as you grow this this group in practice one of the things you shared with us before was your use of a link. Din is kind of being as you as the organization and have kind of grown up. It's becoming more and more of an interesting platform for for you to use for nine hundred nine digital. This is something that we're hearing on on the The show quite a bit we had we had a content and community manager strategists from link to Amazon just touched a few weeks ago she seen it kind of from in her vantage point. Curious kind of how. You're seeing your use of Lincoln mature and If you think it's a if it's a valuable resource and if you're doing anything different Burlington that you may been doing on one of the more Kinda we'll call older traditional platforms. Yeah it really is interesting to see Kalinka shift I would say a few years ago. It was the only platform my my business Focused father was on an now. It's actually one of the platforms that I find myself looking at all of the time And really being inspired by the content that is on their On on the streams being shared by I feel like a lot of business developers a lot. What of Even C. Suite or director levels Mid career professionals really I feel like being transparent about their challenges this and being really positive I see it as being a very positive platform now. which is what really resonates with me? And so I I find myself on it a lot and I feel like as social media. Managers have a little bit. I could say grownup throughout the past decade. It's an the opportunity to share our needs on that more so and you know be able to make the case to those C. C. Suite. I want to ask you one question on that because I'm seeing the exact same thing and I'm finding myself going to Lincoln because of that and the only thing I can put my finger on Lori unless this is an amazing algorithm shift that they're making there seems to be less political vitriol on linked in it hasn't permeated linked in like we we see on twitter facebook and the others on curious just from a purely personal standpoint. Does that have any impact on you. Like it's having on me personally. Yeah that is very true. I do not I feel like people model behavior even if it subconsciously so you tend to the a share what you see other people sharing so I do wonder if the algorithm is prompting other people to continue sharing what they're seeing. This is the norm. Here I'm going to continue sharing this sort of content and I've noticed in whether it's an emerging museum professionals group or with my students that are emerging museum professionals or in other facebook groups like a museum social media managers people asking talking. Is it appropriate to post this on Lincoln. So people are more wary of what they post on linked in they're anxious about how it will be perceived so I think that it's one of those places where you curate your content more and so you might be more hesitant to post political views there as well. Yeah that makes sense you going to have some kind of cadence pressure either. You're not trying to post multiple times data linked to and typically so. You can be a little bit more thoughtful full about what you put their. WanNa ask you about the facebook group. I it's successful right. And it's very thriving community in every sense of the word. What tips do you have for social pros listeners? Who are either maybe in a facebook group or edmonds of a facebook group? I want to start a facebook group either amongst their colleagues and peers or even even for their customers. Would you have about facebook group administration and crazy next to thrive in culture there. I thanks for asking this question. I love online communities so much and I really had a great time having the chance to go up to the facebook community summit and getting to learn from facebook and from other FACEBOOK group admins. It really is amazing to get to learn from these other people and just see what sort of actual strategies and tactics. They're are doing and really it's about Again I mentioned earlier. Modeling Behavior Encouraging those who have shared shared positive or encouraging content that you want to see and in those early years in the group I just. It's kind kind of natural for me. I always want to be the cheerleader for people. I always like to encourage successes and and I I would always whenever someone would post something I would never let a post to go. Unlike Durham commented on. I would always encourage them so it wouldn't and be just me posting content we also have a a How do you say it? It's just a thing we do every week. Where you're able to sign up for our cover photo and Because we couldn't agree on what are cover photo should be because we're all all the museums of all all over the world right so what. What on Earth should that be all beautiful institutions so there is a document where you sign up and and you also in that undocument- host a foot your photo for the cover photo and every Monday? I update the cover photo Recently at a conference I had a friend. Say It's it's just so comforting knowing that every Monday when I get a notification from the Museum Social Media Interest Group. It's just Laurie. Updating the cover photo an Google doodle doodles google images of the day. I thought of it like it's we're at Two hundred and forty six just updated it today so we featured two hundred forty a six museums which is pretty amazing to be able to see these these photos from all over the world. So that's one thing that we've done and end. Yeah it's just being able to empower others to be able to share and reminding them please do brag about your successes we love a good humble brag Just making sure people feel comfortable. Of course it will depend on what your group is. But I think that it's just establishing those norms early on and getting that community feeling comfortable to contribute is really the trick at. It's great advice I love it. I like the heavy ritualistic approach to the same way that we talk. So much on this program about not doing random acts of social and actually having shows episodic content formats I think the same is true who for social communities. If not more so I wrote about this. I think she's all my back in the now. Revolution this this principle that you've gotta give your fans assignments you can't just collect baseball. Spoke Cards You know you gotta give them something to do. Otherwise why are they a member. And and you're you're seeing a lot of membership organizations actually in the real world Have trouble trouble with with participation. For the same reason they think that just having a membership card is is enough to psychologically satisfy people. When you're holding the phone all the time and you can scroll through six thousand as an instagram photos in twenty minutes? Got To give people a little more bite at the apple. I WANNA put up. I WanNa like do the cover photo the cover photo of like atom and Laurie and me the pros love. I might actually because I'm sharing about our group and I'm going to be very carrion busiest about sharing. He does content there. He gets the Museum of Adam Brown Election Museum Museum. The Museum of Social Pros Podcast Co hosts which actually has a number of people in several five exhibits. Now although you I think now now mathematically are the longest running co host wing now instead of just own you get your own wing lovelace lily. Yes you get your face on tickets. Laurie we're going to ask through the two questions that we ask everybody here on the program. I question what one tip. Would you give somebody who's looking to become a social flow. I always stay say stand on the shoulders of giants celebrate and other successes and let them inspire you rather rather than embitter you. Embrace the best of what social media can do in share what others are doing and I always say that this is the secret sauce to growing your network. It's about collaborating and supporting not trying to one up each other boy. That is such good advice. Thoughtful Adams reports. Averts look it the best way to get the spotlight to shine on. You is to shine the spotlight on everybody else in eventually. It will leak back on on you. It's just the way it works but most people don't have the patience for that and most people. Frankly don't care enough about other people to do that but trust me it will tell you that it. It works Laurie. If you could do a video call with any living person who would it be. I'm really curious if anyone has said this but we need your your pedia genius. We need somebody to actually collate the the four hundred answers. We have to this question. Because we've got kind of a half ass Google doc and it's not really working so I know you're the right person for the job so I do not. I probably want. Let me tell you if it's somebody who said Mr Museum researchers Semi Person Is Simon Cal What you might not have guessed but I'm a bit of a reality? TV Junkie When not in museums? So I've watched every American idol since the beginning expecter and a number of years of America's bat talent and and if you haven't been paying attention you may think that he's still this trait means I'm in cal- from the early idle years but really quite the opposite. Now you might be raised to now. He's beloved really by people. He's this genius. Industry grinch whose heart grew three sizes and the old Simon has sort of melted away and to me. It's also a reflection of Internet culture. I think it used to be cool to be snarky and now it's cool to be kind. Well said what what a great book that would be right. The the metamorphosis of of Simon callow speed great Broadway play and so that's what you can be doing right now. You'd be working on the Simon and Cow Metamorphosis Butterfly Cocoon Story. They can also be a museum exhibit walk and he's He's physically. He's lost a tremendous amount of weight. I don't know he's changed his diet completely so I think he was because he was also that fat mean did you know he does not actually social media or a smartphone at all fun fact he shoes social media. Well I mean I can kind of see enough social but no smartphone. I'm sure it's not. It's handlers yes he he has plenty of loans in the respective pocket for sure Lori. Thank you so much for taking time to be on the show. Thank you for the great work that you're doing on behalf of the museum social media managers out there. Congratulations on the new company as well. Nineteen O nine digital in Indianapolis List and thank you for the work that you're doing calling attention to the plight of social media manager is not just a museum space but in all spaces I think if you listen to this program you probably well know perhaps apps all too well just how hard of job it is and is under appreciated and under recognized so thanks for the work that you're doing friends don't mm forget all the episodes that we've ever done a lot of them with atom even you can find at social pros dot com will link up a lot of the resources that Lori mentioned in today's episodes we got transcripts. You've got to be have the audio we've got show. It's all that stuff at social pros dot com. Thanks as always for listening. We really appreciate each in every one of you. On behalf of Adam Brown from salesforce marketing cloud. I'm Jay Baer founder of convince and convert. This has been hopefully your favorite podcast in the whole world. Keep on making it happen out. There hug each other. It's GONNA be okay. This has been social press.

Social Media Manager FACEBOOK Lori Bird Adam Brown Museum Social Media Interest G Museum of Adam Brown Election Museum of Social museum Ziam Laurie Google facebook art museum Ryan Dodge. media manager salesforce Dallas Museum of art Museum of Indianapolis museum and Development Bird McDevitt
Jean-Sbastien Provost  Partie 1  De la psychologie aux sciences biomdicales

Papa Phd Podcast

45:02 min | 4 months ago

Jean-Sbastien Provost Partie 1 De la psychologie aux sciences biomdicales

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383: Demand-Paged Outrage

Accidental Tech Podcast

2:25:30 hr | 4 months ago

383: Demand-Paged Outrage

"So, we've got a little bit of weird, set up this week. next week is the time that I am hypothetically going to be not at home, which is a semi, inconvenient time and from. From the perspective of though there's nothing on this next week, right? But, nevertheless I thought you know what I should probably try out all this new equipment including a brand, new frigging computer and so I am recording speaking to you this week for my macbook pro and if everything sounds like garbage. And say that it was the adorable the whole time. So yeah, we want to hear more about that computer leader. Actually 'cause. Yeah, this is your first I've been awhile. Yeah, definitely, and we will talk about it, but. If it all sounds like garbage. Don't play Marco blaming. Everything. Changed I've changed everything except my microphone and the preempt, but like cabling got changed, the computer got changed. Everything is different and so i. figured you know what if I'm GonNa? Screw this one up. Then let's screw. Let's this one up. In next week's. which is a little bit more important. Why not both yeah four does, did you? Did you by any chance? Get the you know oxygen free gold, everything solid monster cables. No, no this guy who used to work at staples last night told me that it was all garbage shouldn't do it, and then he got fired for it. I think if fired for it. No, you didn't okay. I was represented a little bit by telling customer not to buy the super expensive cables because they were a waste of money. The lightly reprimanded. what else going on the beach? It's amazing. I know I feel bad appreciating anything right now and having a good time but I, really having a good time, and it's really after months of misery extremely nice for my mental health to have some repair time. You know it's funny. You say that. Something I wrestle with a lot I carry with me a lot of guilt about a lot of different things, not white cars, incidentally, because those can just happen to you as a listener wrote to US which I won't say any more than that, but white course can happen to you. I don't care guilt about that, but I carry guilt about basically everything else in the world and. It's funny because I you know I'm going away soon and not for a long time, but but long enough and I'm really looking forward to it, and really excited about it and I also feel a little guilty about that, but on the same side, not on the same side. I guess on the flip side of the coin. I feel like all of us every single one of us. The three of US everyone listening. All need to take care of ourselves by whatever means we possibly can. Maybe that's buying something frivolous. Maybe it's getting takeout from a really expensive restaurant. Maybe it's You know going to the beach for awhile that a day a week, a month or a year whatever the case may be I, don't think any of us should feel guilty about taking care of ourselves and our loved ones, even though I totally agree with you and I totally feel guilty about the fact that I'm excited to be going away and quarantining in four different walls for a little while yeah. So. Have you been to any restaurants yet? I've gotten plenty of takeout I have not been to any, and this is going to be really challenging for us when we're on our vacation, because one, even though none of the restaurants in in this little town that we love so much art particularly remarkable. We still really love these restaurants like I. Don't know I've not experienced boom boom or bang bang sauce. Boom sauce. That might be something else, yeah? Fair enough. If well, it's banks shrimp what you call them What's the outback owned bonefish grill anyway? Point is like I. Don't know if boom boom sauce is is like the most amazing thing that's ever been put on any food item ever, and it may be, but my ex. My assumption and my expectation is that it is legitimately very good, but in the grand scheme of things like it's not earth shatteringly good right, and so these restaurants at this place that we're going good. They're good restaurants, but they're not earth shatteringly good, but part of the experience was that we would go out to dinner. You know most nights, which is very unusual thing for us in go to these restaurants in years past inexperienced them and eat at these restaurants and we really love that and. And you know there's no reason we can't do. Take out this year, but part of the fun is eating out in our kids. Thankfully are pretty good for the most part at restaurants, and so I always enjoy that always enjoyed named enjoyed that and I'm a little bummed that that's not going to be part of the Dick this year, unless on the extraordinarily slim chance, there's like literally nobody else on the patio and then maybe I would consider it me, but even then I just get takeout, but have you. Have you done anything? Have you had your boom boom sauce? Well first of all the boom sauce can be ordered at one of the Delis A to go container. Ego and so I have been having boom boom sauce on my eggs since we've gotten to the beach. The very first day. I went there and I ordered. You had to give him a list like textualist to a number, and they would bring it to your house basically. And on that list was a tub of boom sauce from the Deli. I can get up whenever I want. It's just like a Kens food service. Thing you'd have to order like a whole gallon of it, and it's you know from Amazon from some kind of food service. Provider you can't get. In regular consumer sized amounts, and I decided to leave it. Be like a special fire island thing i. think that's a good idea I really enjoy having. This part of my life be a whole different mode, and so much of modern life. You can kind of keep the same and bring with you wherever you go year round anywhere in the world you can if you want to, you can have a lot of things. Be exactly the same all the time, and for some things in my life I do that. This is why I have brought me I'm actually here and I and I continue most of my work here and everything but. It is nice to have like different. That you go in in certain places or in certain seasons or certain times a year, or whatever whatever that is to have a different lifestyle and one of the reasons. I like it here so much. Is that the the nature of fire island forces a different lifestyle to a large degree. There's cars here you you get over on bikes. It's flat and everything is just instead of roads. There's very wide sidewalks, and it's charming, and like part of a recipe for charm is to take something that that you have to do all the time and add inconveniences to it. That are that are something. At inconveniences that result in a pleasurable but more difficult requirements, so for instance here to get groceries. You can't just drive your car to the grocery store and load up and drive home. You have to either order for delivery which I don't usually do if I can help it. Take A. Or a wagon to the grocery store and you walk, and you're only here in the summer. When the weather's Nice, there's no cars in the way there's no hills. It's flat. It's kind of charming to have to walk outside in the summertime. Or bike to the grocery store and then bike home. You take these things that in everyday life are kind of too easy a lot of ways like they've gotten to easier. They've gotten to routine. And you add things that make everyday life slightly more of a pain in the butt, but in ways that that resulted in charming outcomes, either you get more exercise. You get fresh air. You get to ride a bike around that kind of stuff, so this place forces a certain lifestyle that includes a lot of that kind of stuff. And this is where the where my Apple Watch a lot more here I. do different kinds of exercise. Yeah, I started running this year for the first time ever. Because running here is really easy and we talked about that some time. Running at home is where I live at home, running is is all know that would not be fun. It's pretty unpleasant most of the year. Just, for weather, reasons pretty unpleasant, and it's a very hilly very hilly neighborhood. So running at home is not incredibly pleasant so at home to row on a rowing machine, but here I like to run of turns out because it's a really nice place and really nice time of the year to run I like having the more different lifestyle here like just to be different as much as possible like I have different clothes here. I have different priorities yearling so anyway I forgot. How do we go on this? I don't even know blowback, inconvenience and doing things differently in unique and the boom boom sauce. Yes, so and. So the booze, one other thing that I add to that pile of things that are different, I have an entirely different flavor profile for my breakfast when I'm here. At home we make scrambled eggs a certain way with spinach and tomatoes. I'm here. We usually do boiled eggs cut in half with blooms or fully deviled boom boom sauce on top, so it's like a full. It's a whole different lifestyle. It's part of the charm of like shifting into this mode. And Yeah I like having more of those things I would use different headphones. Just like just everything is like a little bit different, oftentimes in ways that I like more or that are better or just different from what I do the rest of the year. I'm glad that you're there. You sound happy. Nothing sounded unhappy before, but you sound a little bit area in yeah I don't know if that's right word, but like happier more jovial, maybe so I'm excited Oh and to actually answer your question that you actually asked. You know fifteen minutes ago before I ramble on about how much. After the day after last week's episode was my birthday as you mentioned, thank you for thank you that. It turned out that the day before my birthday was the first day in this county that restaurants were allowed to be open and it's still very restricted. It's still it's outdoor seating. Only the tables are spaced really far apart, so they don't have many. Not a Lotta tables. and. You have to our masks. The entire process unless you are sitting at your table so to and from the table. If you get up to go to the bathroom like masks during all those times, the servers and the entire staff wear masks all the time, but you can sit there at your table outside far from everybody else with no mask on when you were at the table and eat your food. Part of my birthday. Celebration is I got to go a restaurant for the first time in months and all. That's awesome. It was amazing. And we know it's a decent restaurant. It's not like a mind blowing restaurant. It's a nice restaurant, but it's not like mind blowing, but it was a restaurant and when you've been. Quarantine for this time and and you've had best takeout food. Look again. We weren't actually doing that. Much of because. The takeout around us isn't very good, so we were Moses cooking. And we're not that great at it or into it so it it's been. It's been a few months of really bland food life, and so to celebrate my birthday with a night at a restaurant, even though it was a very strange experience, all the masks and everything, and all the spacing and outdoor like it didn't feel like incredibly normal, but it was really nice, and that was a fantastic way to celebrate, so if you have the option to do that safely where you are. I suggest you don't have to all the time, and obviously it's up to you kind of risk. You take if you can do it safely in a way, that fits your risk profile. It's a really nice luxury to have restaurants again. I'm looking forward to whatever that time is, and they could really use the health honest. I? Don't feel guilty about going to a restaurant. Feel guilty. Every Melia NOCCO new a restaurant because they are desperate for business right now because. You know restaurants as we mentioned before like restaurants are not even in the Desa Times, a high profit business with a lot of. Runway. To Go. Three months or whatever it's been with, either significantly reduced or no prophets. Not a lot of restaurants can absorb that help you restaurants go to them. Spend a lot of money in restaurants. They they need it. All right. Let's start with some. Follow up and we have to there. There's no not to start with a genuine in deep. Thank you to all of our listeners for for even considering joining our brand new membership program, and for more than I expected of you to have actually joined our membership program The feedback has been almost almost universally. Great I've been overjoyed by the feedback. What did we say John that? You were in the middle. I was the pessimist and John was the optimist that we concluded Margot was out. I'm the optimistic I'm sorry that's what I meant. I'm sorry. Yes, anyway, so I definitely was wrong. Without question and I don't know I haven't talked with the guys about where they think it all landed, but I've been overjoyed by it and extremely impressed by. It a couple of things that we want it will, actually before we go any further any comments from the two of you about what what has transpired in the best possible way for membership? Oh It's been wonderful I'm extremely pleased. Thank you all. For supporting US honestly so quickly I mean so we. My optimistic goal was certain percentage of our listener base, and we are like halfway there already after one week. So that's extremely. Is, heartening a word I know disheartening. Disheartening is I assume it's heartening. Which I've never heard. People use that word, but it's extremely heartening. I'm, GONNA go with. that. We have that we have so much support from all of you, so thank you very much we are going to. We've gotten a lot of great feedback on on what you might want out of membership possible improvements we could make to. It surprisingly. Most people seem very happy with what we already launched. Which is kind of fun? We have heard a few concerns about things like currency, conversion or annual payments. We're looking into a lot of different things. No guarantees we're going to see what we can do. There's a lot of trade off to a lot of the stuff, so we're but rest assured. We are looking into a lot of that stuff as well. As for the you know what you get. Everybody wants cooking with John. That is true, absolutely true. John is going to happen about everybody. I saw about the same number I. I saw more requests for destiny. Maybe it's just because they're sending them just me and maybe there's any of the cooking with John Lewis to you. Anyway those are those are stretch goals. We're nowhere near any of these things yet, so we thank you for the innovative ideas. We will keep them in mind, but let the stuff like that We'll see yeah and one thing that I can definitely say that we are working on and that we do plan to launch unless we're into some massive showstopper, but we do. Do Plan to work on or I. Am I'm working on? We do plan to launch a quote. Bootleg feed, which is a feed that basically gives you recordings of the live broadcast very quickly after it ends. We're looking into that. Now I've started building some of the support into the CMS. We just ran out of time and I don't know when this will be done. But, this is something that we are again unless some massive showstopper comes up that we can't foresee, we do plan to do this sometime fairly soon maybe by next week if if it's aggressive, but I don and actually WDC so maybe next week, but we'll see. We're GONNA we. We probably have a very busy few weeks ahead of us with the stuff, so it might not happen before that, but we're working on it. A lot of people have asked for it. Keep in mind like this. What this is is the often requested unedited feed, and that's for better and for worse. unedited really means unedited. There's GonNa be stuff like you know our stumbles. You might depending on how we do it. You might hear a skype artifact here or there, or you might like. Somebody might drop a word if if this gets a little bit flaky like depending on how you know what end we record this on how we do it and the audio quality will probably be anywhere near as good as the final released show is, but a lot of people don't care because it's still. It's not bad so anyway, so we're working on that. It's basically going to be exactly what we are broadcasting on. A livestream people have requested that in large numbers, and so we are working on that I. Don't think any other standout requests are have been coming in. He doesn't give anything else. You covered most of them the currency and and longer time periods. And there's a bunch of stuff anyway. We'll like expect the membership to evolve like I'm speaking for myself, I'm very motivated to try to make the membership program. Good like we talked about diversifying income and everything you know, and we're very happy with the science and everything, but realistically it's still a tiny fraction of listeners, but for that tiny fraction it's a new. It's a new relationship with our listeners like inst-. INST- not not that you know ad sales and everything is particularly indirect. It's still fairly deregulated the show we sell ads in the show. It's not really that complicated, but now with direct payment I feel like there's a straight line from listener directly to us so I. Do want to provide something that everybody likes and so I'm I assume that this the offering will evolve over time right out of the gate. We're trying to hit the top requests which is like feeding. We don't know what the timing will be. In terms of when any bootleg will be available were also at this point making no guarantees about Oh, it'll always be you know within the first half hour after the show. It might be the next morning for us. We don't know we're GONNA. Aim for as quickly as possible, and we're GONNA. Aim for as good sounding as we can reasonably get with as little work as possible, but again it very well may be that you're hearing a skype recording of two thirds of us and really crisp. Crisp recording of one of us will see and it can involve. It can evolve if we start with bootleg and we do it immediately, but it sounds like dirt, and then we realized well. Maybe you'd rather do it in the morning, but it'll sound really really good. Maybe we'll do that. We'll see, but we are committing to barring like Marco said any major showstoppers were committing to having that sometime as soon as can reasonably be hoped, given that the most busy time of the year starts in a few days, so we're going to try also. Something that I thought was extremely kind flattering. Even though it wasn't flattering to me, was that a lot of people said well I don't know if I wanNA. Stop listening to the ads because the ads are really good and I. Find Stuff that I like in the ads, and that's the idea. That's what the ads are therefore. In I just wanted to remind everyone both tongue-in-cheek. Seriously that even if you remember that doesn't mean you have to use the member, only feed, you can continue to listen to the regular feed the free feed. Even if you're a paid member I mean you, do you? That's perfectly fine and I like Marcos ads and I also find things that I enjoy in. Our own ads, but other podcasts ads, so that's a perfectly reasonable thing to do. But yes, in summary, thank you so very very very much. It really does mean an incredible amount all three of us that so many of you have opened your wallets specifically for the three of us, and that's extremely extremely kind and and I'm I'm really flabbergasted at how the response has been, so thank you. All right. John, tell me about xbox three sixty kits. Kind of a collected about the the arm McDevitt thing that we talked about alleged show of Apple's going to roll out a series of arm, base, Max or Max space in some other CPU of than x eighty six. We were talking about what kind of hardware they might give developers to port their applications tester applications, and we talked about a bunch of stuff, and then we got a bunch of feedback about different theories. The first bit is when I was talking. About. How Console Development works you get a kit for console and it's not like the console. and. That's just something that is is. That game developers deal with in the console, Roland Forever Someone pointed out an old item from back in a couple of generations ago in the council world, the xbox three sixty, that was the generation where everybody decided to use power PC CPU's in their consoles including Microsoft with three sixty. The one of the early death kits for the xbox three sixty was a tarmac five. There was the big picture I remember of like. A truck full of power MAC. G Five is being delivered to Microsoft and at the time it was like wasn't this weird Microsoft getting a bunch of Max, and they're not even it's not even part of their windows. Thing, it's all. The they're getting them to do development work on the xbox three sixty, so I put a link in the show notes. If you went to see, take a look at that. Someone tried to resurrect and Xbox to resist Dev. Kit using a power MAC g five. You know I don't know if it was A. Hardware from that from that era or trying to recreate it, but. It looks like the president got actual xbox three sixty games running on a power, just totally weird, so yeah, development hardware that was internal. Obviously I don't think I'm not sure it was ever sent out to game. Developers are probably was knowing the way council marks very often like I, part of your second party. Developers get really weird early access to hardware just to get going on their on their games. The next idea that was suggested by many people was. What if apple just an add in card? For the MAC pro, and then adding card had basically going arm CPU and all the stuff in it. could that work well. Yeah, I totally could work, but basically nobody has MAC froze. Its I'm not sure how that helps anybody except for maybe people inside apple like the macro is the only Mac that apple sells that has. Card slots in it and they have not sold a lot of them. I can imagine and is really expensive and they're not going to sell more of them. By suddenly putting arm cards in them, so I'm GONNA. File under technically plausible and maybe even something that they possibly could be doing internally at Apple, but boy. I cannot imagine. Any significant number of MAC developers running out and buying a extremely expensive Mac pro pleasant. Add in card to test their Our stuff on also like imagine the complexity involved in the in the software and hardware architecture of that of like okay, you have your running an Intel. Architecture computer inside of it is a smaller. After, that, yes, I know they have like the T to and everything. But this is like a whole separate thing that would have totally separate needs and totally separate hardware engineering requirements, and all of that for a very very temporary solution for you know that that's preparing you for A. Very near term probably like within a year future where they're selling, are only Max so like they're already doing all the engineering to make standalone arm Max complete. Arm only presumably standalone Max right so they're already doing like having to engineer motherboards I. O N Power Management. You know all this stuff in desktop. Desktop and laptop context. That's all going to be a little bit different than like an IPAD. They're already doing that. Why would they also have a solution? That's only going to be around for a year. Maybe that is okay. We're also going to build the ability for this Mac pro that nobody except John bought to have this entire like daughter card. Thing that's it's just it's very implausible. Compared to okay, they're already making a arm Mac engineering platform at standalone, just ship an early version of that as a deficit. That is way more likely. Unless, they already did it internally. But I think the honestly the time line of the MAC pro. If it was probably too late like I. Presumably they were working on the arm Max and a time line that was that started earlier than the Mac pro especially given. How was kind of? Rushed out Apple the the the idea of having a whole separate computers either apple's done that a couple times in their past they used to sell Mac with a forty six PC inside it and if you remember that one. For Virtual Right Now like with with a literal eighty six PC right, actual intel, four, eighty six CPU and like an entire with I. Think it was back with the pizza box Max they used to sell an apple. Two Card for some Max were is basically an entire to inside your MAC and so it would run apple to software on the apple two guard. Technically plausible, but highly unlikely. Mac Mini was adjusted I. Don't know if we talked about this last time, but it's like. Oh, well, you know. suggesting. They ship early versions of a MAC that they're gonNA. Make what about just hacking together something like that in the day with the with the pentium four inside a Mac pro case that was let's assemble a working Intel Mac out of the pieces that we have. We're never going to sell this. We're never going to sell the informant, but we've got this big case and we can get a motherboard. Him was inside the case in Japan out, and that's are you know their kit for Intel MACs right? You've got Mac mini kid these days. They don't I. Don't think they're going to use this. You know seven hundred dollar fancy drilled out. But many cases rarely available, and it's really easy to shove a tiny little arm based computer inside there, I mean the raspberry pies. The case he has or you could five inside a Mac mini case. And arm arm. CPU's are probably relatively small and power efficient, no problem using a Mac mini case, and that's a fairly cheap way to make a death kit that. could be economical, and presumably there will eventually be an arm based Mac mini, but that doesn't matter again. The the pentium four a developer kit. They sent head no relation to any Intel Mac that they were making. The fact that they use a cheeseburger case eventually they made you know Intel that that greater case, but. Everything about it was different than they never used. That motherboard never used that CPU than ever used any of that stuff, right? So they could take a Mac mini show some guts in there and distribute that. That's pretty cheap way to do it. It's cheaper than even doing laptop door of the screen and stuff. Although again it might be annoying. People daft up an external display if they don't have one. Apple TV in the same vein, how about an even smaller box? Hey, we've got this little round. Black rounded rectangle thing that already has an arm CB unit again Hollywood out put in an alarm. CPU or if they're working on a new apple TV variant, the maybe they can share some hardware with that that could to it starts to get a little bit too small and a little bit too. Cuba who knows stranger things have happened. getting even more cheaper, you know going down line from a card for your macro or a Mac mini or an apple. TV But this Marco mentioned the t to Max had little abusing them for a while. Especially ones I can't think it started with a touch bar, the t one powering the original bar forget numbering. Yeah but anyway Max not to in them now. The T- who is a here is that like an a seven equivalent I think eight. Eight ten from the iphone seven, yeah. So it's it's no slouch is no slouch. You think it's basically the similar to what was in the iphone seven. Slow Ish for a MAC but plenty fast to just do a proof of concept ever. Unfortunately, a to was doing stuff in there. It's not just hanging around for the hell of it right the. In addition to running the touch barring whatever. It also is like the I. O Controller for the SSD. Video processing although you could probably count some more headroom in the thing by showing something, it's not even running like it's running bridge or whatever the hell like it's. It's busy. The teacher was busy and anyone has a t to Mac. Knows that. It's taken a while for the t one and t two chips to shake out in terms of drivers aboard and having weird issues, not just religious touch bar, but in general I really don't think apple would try to shoehorn anything else onto that t to I. Really think it's busy doing other things running different operating system so I think we can set that one aside that said if there's a t three or something and future, Max, maybe that has more headroom I don't know but like. I feel like the chips that are in your computer. Now are doing stuff. especially down. I wouldn't want the thing that's controlling reads and writes from my ass. All of a sudden be running like Mac software on it right. D Know Max offer on it. I know suggestion was cloud. Hey, why did they have to give anyone hardware at all? Say we have a bunch of virtual are Max in the cloud, and you can just sort of remote desktop into them and run. Yourself were on there and just trust us. Those are all running arm that distribute hardware to anybody. It's Kinda laggy, but you don't really care and you know you just want to make sure your software works. Yeah. They could do that, but is that sound like an apple thing to do to you i? mean it sounds like a googly. Doesn't like not that I'm saying apple doesn't do. It doesn't have any cloud expertise. Obviously things like I, you know. The photo was icon photo library. And Cloud Kid and apple has gotten a lot better at the cloud stuff than it used to be. But. In. The cloud, our maximum clouds strike me as not an apple style approach, and in the end developers would much prefer to have hardware in front of them. You know reducing leg being more realistic having more control over it. You know if you to mess with it a reset at our polkadot product. Doing it. Remotely over the this is a little bit of a distance, and and like Margot said about the arm card that seems like a lot of work, just going to be a brief transition, and then eventually all have our Max test on so I don't think that's going to happen, and the final one is software only not in a cloud, not anything like they'll be no arm hardware at all there will be is like an arm simulator essentially arm emulator that you run on your Intel Mac, and you know it's an actual emulator that emulates the arm all the arm hardware like it's like you know not even like the. Native structure set? It's literally relation. That that could work, but in the end, developers want to run their software on actual hardware, if possible and. If Apple's making this hardware anyway, I feel like they can come some kind of solution that involves actual hardware I. Don't think they would go through the. Pretty big effort to try to make good enough software. Emulation of arm shouldn't be doing is figuring out how to emulate x eighty six arm, and not figuring that emulate. Six said also seems like a lot of effort For not a big payoff, so of all these choices I think the one I like. The best is the MAC mini because. It is potentially smaller and cheaper than in arm. Laptop ended. It is still real hardware. Analysts Apple Reuse assets, but honestly with all these discussions just because apple has done CPU, transition twice in the past, and we can look at what they did. During those times for helping developers really has no bearing what they'll do this time it was. It was a long time ago. Things have changed. Apple has changed. Developers have changed. The world has changed, which is why I think it's worth even just discussing all the different options like cloud and software only and and the apple TV and stuff like that, but. Who knows I mean assuming this all goes off as planned next week a? You know hopefully some news related to this, but. I can't imagine the mouse announcing his transition, and also at the developer conference telling developers how it is that they're expected to port their applications, because that's kind of the point of telling developers. They WANNA. Know this, so we'll have the answer to this week or so I think. The more people wrote in and be heard various rumblings. The more I think, the MAC mini is the most likely. Solution here because. Basically they could. Almost you know just release the Mac mini today. It could just be the first armoured. Okay. Here's a Mac mini. It's you know it's a low profile product. It doesn't need any of the fancy power management. Stuff is laptops and everything one area that I'm especially curious about is thunderbolt while you know. It started out as an Intel only thing they. There were some effort until I. Think you know officially? Officially started licensing it to other people, or open it up to other people about a couple of years ago. Officially but I don't think any of those open to other people products, I've actually come out yet. There is also the kind of like bundling of thunderbolt four into USB that is happening like USB four hundred forward s somehow whatever the next big version is honorable and USB I. Think it's basically unified now. But I don't think that's out yet. and. I don't think that's anywhere near ready to be out yet. So if they were to make an arm Mac mini even for development purposes. How would it output video to monitor like? It might be HDMI. Only that seems it's possible, but I think unlikely they could have some kind of weird thunderbolt hack, or maybe could be Kinda like the IPAD pro where it only supports USB three over those ports, and not actually thunderbolt, so it wouldn't work with any of apple's own monitors. Apples one currently produced. Monitor or the last few that they made. So. That's one option as well again kind of a crappy option. But. It might not matter so much, but it's something that they do have to solve. That also just goes to show like quite. How much of a project it is to get our Max because you have to deal with all the. That you have either. You know I I o types and technologies, a needs that either don't exist on ipads or only existence significantly reduced way to date. So, that's that actually like us before seemed that the kind of thing, it'd be worth waiting for before. They even released these things. Maybe they are waiting for years before. Who knows but yeah for for the purposes of deficit. Definitely I think a the Mac mini is the most likely option at this point. They're worried about the thing is it is free and open, and anyone can license it, and you know like the relationship between apple and Intel as such. I would imagine that apple have no problem being first out the gate with a fully certified custom made for this reason though. I think hey, we're to work really closely with you to cut our heads off. But, but the other option is okay well, then we won't work with you. And then Intel does want apple's business and other things like cell phone, modems and stuff, and so you know. Intel needs apple more than apple needs. Intel Intel knows it so I feel like that. They could definitely yeah, and this would have been things that they've been working on for years to like. Build a system on a chip with thunderbolt built in. When they started that project ends all. was probably enthusiastic about it because it's probably three and a half years ago and same thing with us before like the same way that apple purportedly had such influence on the connector and everything I imagined. The US before standard has had some influence from apple's well, so I'm not really worried. I feel like Apple. Help will have the situation sorted out when when they need to. And for the get like. You said they don't need to defecate you just slap something at a deaf kid. You could just have a complete thunderball controller in like it doesn't have to have any relation off hardware. They were GONNA ship they donated to. Things like are they going to provide different amounts of Ram the you can test your APP with different amounts of ran like or how like stuff like that that? You don't really think about an Iowa land because everything is just the same on a Mac like. Are they going to give democats with only eight gigs of Ram because that is? The minimum that people probably have or are they gonNA give them with sixteen because. It might be hard to test some really big APPS on it like who knows I think all those little tiny questions are all probably big pain in the butt to apple and developing section thing, but the and we don't. We don't even think about it really like it just hasn't even come up. You know in our in our speculation level at this point, but it is all stuff that you kind of have to worry about. Well, but the amounts of Ram that exists today is irrelevant. Right because nobody's going to be running arm Mac on existing hardware are Mac os on existing hardware? So if they know that the minimum amount of Ram? Going forward is sixteen gigs than that I. Guess that's what they would provide right because it's only going to be new hardware that that is going to be running these chips so even if it exists in the wild, it doesn't matter for the purposes of this conversation. That's true, but does that mean. If you're developing like photoshop for arm, you have to build on a sixteen gig machines. It's the only configuration they offer. For the deficit here. Doesn't apple have that memory pressure tool Greek that with tons of Ram and just let people use the Mary pressure tool to simulate, but it would be like to have memory I don't know that's I feel as that's at least people concerned. Most people just WANNA. Get their software, so it doesn't crash. Issue, illegal instructions or some you know us some data format or byte ordering the mixed the arms CPU. Flip out like it'll. That stuff will sort itself out. Todd and Ken writes, and this is kind of related thoughts on how apple spins it. If the arm macbook air is faster than most or all of the macbook pro models, this is a really interesting question and I'm sure there are examples in history where this has happened I mean I guess the event that we're at where they kind of didn't really talk that much about the different sort of the the how much quicker the IPAD pro then new ipad pro was than the macbook air, and I just focusing on a battery life perhaps would be the most obvious answer to me like not even talking about speed, but more saying hey. Hey this new macbook air if that's what it is, this new MAC book. Air Gets Eighty nine billion hours on one charge. It's amazing, and and it's great, and so on, and not even really talking about speed and Oh, it's also very fast, and we didn't really make compromises on speed and maybe leave it there know. Why wouldn't they brag about the speed? They would say this new are Mac. Book Airs Faster Than Our old macbook. Pro and your and you may say well. You don't have a new macbook pro. What you're saying is the book eras faster than your current Mac pro and they'd say yes is an amazing. HOW GREAT! And, of course, the MAC pro, the macbook pro will eventually become you know arm or whatever, but like they're comparing it to their old model right and I don't think they would hurt. The sales of the pros are buying the existing. Intel, MAC book pro or Mac pro, whatever because they needed to run their existing software, right or like I? Don't I don't think. I was going to buy a MAC book pro, but now that the arm Max are out. I'm going to buy that and not be able to run the software. Things like I think this is not an issue I think they would brag about it like crazy and say, isn't this amazing now? Our lowest end computer is faster than the highest, and honestly that's not an unrealistic thing to imagine certainly in single threaded, it should be and then maybe even multi threaded depending on how many of course there are on the macbook air arm. Cebu things so I think apple is the problem apple love to have? We are brought to you this week by squarespace. Start Building your website today at squarespace dot com slash ATP. Enter Code, ATP CHECKOUT TO GET ten percent off. Make your next move with a beautiful website from squarespace. squarespace quite simply makes it really easy to make really great, awesome, highly professional, looking and highly functional websites, no matter what your skill level is no matter whether you're Kotor whether you can make your entire own cms from scratch, or whether it's not worth your time to do that or whether you have no coding skill whatsoever. It's all intuitive easy to use. Use tools everything is visual. 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All come with mobile friendly layouts and everything as you would expect from any modern site scripts also has amazing support. If you need that, and you never have to worry about stuff like software updates or server, maintenance or keeping your site up, none of that, because Griffey's takes care of all that for you see for yourself at squarespace dot com slash ATP news story, Free Trial with no credit card required when you just to sign up, make sure to head back there. squarespace dot com slash ATP, and he's offer code ATP TO GET ten percent off your first purchase that squarespace dot com slash. Offer code ATP FOR TEN percent. Off Your first purchase, make your next move with a beautiful website from squarespace. Tim Cook wrote on twitter. The unfinished work of Racial Justice and equality call us all to account. Things must change and apples committed to being forced for that change today I am proud to announce it. Apple's racial equity and Justice Initiative with a one hundred million dollar. Commitment you to show us up, Tim. We put some we put. Donating, but you gotTA. Show US UP I. see how it is fairness. His pockets are deeper than. And all the. Things with companies, announcing that they're giving some amount of money that the sport on twitter is to calculate what that would be based on a normal person's income, like facebook gave a million dollars or something. That's like you giving a dollar and thirty two cents right one hundred million. Is a number with a little bit of half, but honestly compared to apple's market, share our market cap, or whatever the amount of cash they have on hand like it's you know. It's one hundred million dollars. Is the least apple do don't you think? Anyway good video attachment if you WANNA see. Tim emoting into the camera all this is all this corporate communication in Paris world is weird, because it is like higher production value than you sitting in front of your computer in a dark room for your zoom meetings, but it's not. It's not up to apples. Usual standards because it's like I, mean I guess tim? Probably did come into the office and maybe had someone set up a camera, or maybe they didn't himself, but it's kind of. It's kind of quaint to see. Sort, of Pro Sumer level media coming out of this multi billion dollar corporations just because we're all social distancing. And totally unrelated. Apple's head of diversity and inclusiveness left, which is a little uncomfortable. Yeah, it's. It's not great timing for that certainly. I own I. Don't think any of US know. This came out today I'm so I. Don't think any of us know enough about the situation. You know is a good thing or a bad thing. It's just that things are happening. Let's say. On the on these fronts at various companies, apple is no exceptional. A Lincoln the shots the story. We can read about it. And you know with the with exit of. Christy, Smith who is. Leaving apple to spend more time with her family. I don't know if that's euphemism, but that's with. This is what the press release said, or the quote from Apple. Set in this article is that? Is that ever not a euphemism? I don't know every literally every time some high powered executive or high profile executives. Leaves or gets fired or they always say to spend more time with their family. And you know I. Spend Time with my family. That's the kind of thing I'm actually do, but does that really happen at that like in these? It has to happen like when when high powered executives actually stopped working like they've made their millions, and they don't WanNa work anymore. They are leaving. Spend more time in there, so it's got to be true at least once in everybody's career. Right like you're not. Unless they don't have a family or something, but yeah, but it is a euphemism, so we'll see if the person I'm merely gets another job at another company. Then it was obviously bs, but if they don't never work again, and which is totally plausible, people this level in apple that they would have enough money to not have to work again especially with all their stock and everything. Who knows, but anyway diversity inclusion will be reporting to Deirdre O'Brien who was the. Head of HR and was also put in front in charge of retail. I remember right yeah! Keep up with all the palace, Intrigue Apple, but anyway things things are happening over there. The give one hundred billion dollars and the head of diversity inclusion is out. Hopefully, things are changing for the better indeed. So I had mentioned earlier that I. AM recording on a brand new computer this week I received my thirteen inch macbook pro I think late last week I. Remember correctly, and I am using its record this episode just to play everything safe and get that out of the way before I have no alternative options very soon and I thought I'd talk about when I think of modern Mac laptops, because if you recall I had one of Marco's beloved fifteen inch macbook pros when I was still at my job a job. which was two years ago now by the way my how time flies, and at the same time I had my beloved macbook adorable, which is the single port macbook? Just Mac book, not macbook Air Mac pro, just MAC book nothing is still kicking aside from occasionally typing more letters than I've asked to to, and it will become I think it will soon become errands, computer, and she will. Will finally after all these years retire the one that is going in the drink like seventeen times, so that's exciting but yeah. I finally got this thirteen inch macbook pro I. Don't know if I ever said it on the show, but I did end up going with thirty two gigs of Ram in one terabyte hard drive I did that because I figured in the same reason I went. Went macbook for one of the reasons macro rather than Air I want this computer to last few years. I don't want to have to replace this year. He says now not knowing what the are Mac book. Look like, but I don't. WanNa be forced to to upgrade this in a year and so I want something that will last a bit, and I don't want a sixteen inch even though. Though I, would absolutely have that if it was my only computer since it is not my only computer and I have this wonderful I mac pro actually right behind it right now. what I did was I went thirteen inch. Because I really want something as close as I can get to my door, but that's actually useful so here we are and I have my first touch bar macbook pro. Because I've only ever used this I've only ever used a touch more like the apple store for like five minutes or my dad's thirteen inch MAC pro. That's a couple years old now for like five or ten minutes Yeah. I thought I talked about a few things first of all. I've been touting for a long time. And in fact, this is probably going to come up and ask ATP later. If we have time, anyway I've been touting brewer bundle, which is kind of like Bundler on Ruby and what it basically does is it allows you to say here's all the homebrew stuff. I would like to install and you put a list together and. And then you say okay homebrew, look at that file and download all the things, and this can also include Gooey APPS can include Mac. UPS STORE APPS, and it works really well and part of the reason I've I've gotten to this point of believing computers or to some degree. Ephemeral is because all the stuff. I really care about is in the cloud or on my sinology. Code for examples on get hub pictures on the -nology and in the cloud. And I don't really have like office, or you'll like pages documents anymore. That hasn't been for me in years. and even still I have that on this analogy and and cloud services so. What. What makes these computers feel ephemeral is that I can basically type one command and get eighty to ninety percent of the way to having my computer. Be The way I want it to be you know my my installations are just those. Installations I, haven't they? Don't tweak settings. They don't you know. Adjust this without just the way I like it, but it does work out really nicely to get kind of a steady state or not a steady state, but like a base state like a foundation of the pyramid with only really one command, which is super awesome. That being said I was doing this. I was having it installed some things and and I. Don't remember if it was that ex- code doing exco installation, or if it was somewhere else, but all of a sudden. What? Oh No. Oh Oh! That's a fan I. Hear I haven't heard a fan from the laptop years. Oh, I, don't like this at all. This isn't good at all. And here it is me the guy who makes two idiots for being so deeply offended by any sort of noise whatsoever mostly looking at you, john any sort of noise whatsoever and suddenly I find myself after having two or two and a half years whatever it's been of. Of Not having a fan of my laptop I hear this thing. Just spin up and I'm just disgusted by it and it's ridiculous. How how just gross it felt now with that said it doesn't spend up the fans very often. It's not been egregious by any means, but it was so startling and striking that even as I was watching TV and kind of multitasking I could still hear these fans, and I found it so incredibly gross. Now that being said. The touch bar. I am only a weekend and I don't know what to think about the touch bar. My initial impression was. This is Kinda of clever and then it became. I can't get to like volume Easley. It's like a two step process for volume and for brightness, and who knew how often I adjusted volume brightness I. Guess I do it a lot, 'cause. It's really annoying having to do the little slighty dance like I know you can keep your finger on the on the touch. Barnes slide, left and right, and that is. That is kind of Nice, but I don't know I find the not having the control strip frustrating now. I should stay plainly upfront. I haven't really done any sort. Sort of system level tweaks to the touch bar. I haven't gone into figure out. Like I think there's a way you can always have control strip active, or do other tweaks like that and I haven't really done any of that I also haven't noticed any particularly stellar use. Cases of the touch bar I've only done a Smidgen of Exco Development on this thing, and so I have a feeling once. I get used to the options. That Exco puts on the touch bar. I might end up liking it quite a bit more. Because I touch type and because I don't look down at my fingers while typing. Just don't see it that often, and this is not an original thought. For years now, but I don't see it that often and it's. It doesn't offend me like I'm not. I'm not grossed out by it. I'm not sure has really brought anything to the table though. And then I installed better touch tool, and now I use better touch twelve years and years and years ago when I was like. New and I used it because I wanted to get some more interesting swipes on my then brand new magic mouse, and then I put it away after having used it for like a year to and had looked back since, but I. I was vaguely aware that you can do some nifty stuff. Touch touched tool. And so I installed it and. I think that has changed dramatically changed the way I feel about the touch bar because what I have right now is I have it set up and it's very simple at the moment, but but I have it set up such that it has a little battery meter for when it's when when the batteries. Being discharged. It has a little icon which is a little emoji. That's a button that will let me flip back and forth from day to night mode, which I don't really do that often, but I found. It's often enough that I'm using this machine like at night where I'd prefer to be in dark mode. For whatever reason it doesn't automatically switched to dark mode until either I'm not using it or it's well after sunset. Whatever the case may be so having a little on. There's really cool. And I also wrote a little shell script that will figure out how many members we have and I. Put a little thing on the touch bar. That'll show me right there. How many ATP members we have which which right now is not that exciting? Because it's pretty much leveled off, put it. I was super freaking Cool I. Have this little boy? Am I touch many members we have. How awesome is that and so I had this little widget area on their actually answer you. Know I think it's awesome. You're reinventing Istat Menus in touch bar. So many ways I really like you should have like. I I just I, picturing you coating away on your new laptop and. Brushing against the thing that changes in the dark. Mod like having your whole screen change to. Brush it again. It changes back to light like talk about I mean. In theory non-destructive, but that is a severe change, too. I mean that's that's my question for you. Do you find yourself accidentally? Brushing your fingers up against touch bar that not to yet not that it definitely has happened, but not that often I can't recall a time I have grazed the dark MoD toggle that I've set up but one thing I have noticed. I don't if it's because I am hitting the touch ID, which by the. The way I didn't mean had this show, but oh man touch ideas nice like just for one password. If nothing else touch, ID is super. Nice I use my Apple Apple Watch always on my wrist so for unlock. It doesn't really get that much, but for for one password it's great, but anyway stance of your question. I feel like maybe because it's touch ID. Maybe it's something else, but I feel like I'm grazing the Siri but. Fairly often when I have the like little miniscule control, strip strip, or whatever it's called where it's just you know three or four icons, the first thing everybody remove says that Siri Button Yup. Oh, you can do that. Zinc Bilton stuff to just the Yank. There Oh cool I keep. I think three or four things there, so I have in the upper right I i. always have the show desktop thing because i. that's like that's in. Normally, and so it puts a kind of near where it was, and then I have a brightness volume and play pause. And I just let the system. Do the rest of it. I've tried better. Torch tool ran a for a few days. I couldn't really get into it myself. It's not really my style of how to do things and I couldn't configure I. Just couldn't figure out a configuration I liked. And, it's just it's a little fiddly for me, but everybody always writes in justice. I'm glad you found some use for it. I? Don't WanNa make this whole thing about how much talks bar because we don't have time for that again, Let. The benefit I find to. It is almost none I. One thing I actually like about it. Is The auto fill suggestions on filling out web forms that is only thing about it that as an improvement for my life because otherwise. It turns all that stuff. You mentioned the beginning of this like it turns out. You adjust brightness in volume a lot. Everybody does on a laptop. Those are very very commonly th commonly things and with a touch bar. What used to be one key press is now at least one tap because you have to tap to open up the volume thing, and then you have to slide it over, and even if you do thing where you tap into hold and just move your finger if you're still doing. And it's worse because you've to look a little bit more closer to see if you're actually hitting it, and if you're watching the video, the touch bar will have probably gone to sleep since the last time you talked I, you have to tap into a week it up. Then you have to actually adjust the thing, and so it's it makes this very common thing have more friction than it had before sometimes significantly more, and then what's even better is quite often. I don't know if you've been using it long enough to run this yet. Quite often the touch bar we'll just freeze and you'll have to like some command to reboot the touch bar to make it work again. And it's been. It's head this problem ever. Since the talks bar started almost five years ago or almost four years ago. It's just buggies. In addition to being questionably designed and extremely controversial utility, it's also just been really buggy its entire justice, and it seems like apple is not working on it at all, like it has gotten no love, no changes no updates, and apparently no bug fixes for its entire life, and yet someone loves it so much whose opinion matters so much I think it's fill that it's on every single pro laptop and you cannot remove. Someone really important loves this thing and refuses to offer an option without it. But not enough to actually make a good. Like at or to fix its basic. So it drives me nuts everything about it i. it drive me nuts, but anyway you can. You can keep going with the positive this review if he's actually one of those things well in John. You never really interacted touch because you're always on an external keyboard. Is that right even with your work computer? No use the keyboard a lot now because I mean got tired to switch back Barcelona's use that especially, since now kind of wandering around the house to escape my kids and there's zoom meetings for school. Right so. It's good that I'm on a laptop for work, so I'll go someplace else. Actually work on the laptop up top, but I've long since given up on the touch prior used it for more than a year to try to like you know all the tweaking. Remove the buttons. Customize it just I just never ended up using it. I don't accidentally hit it that much anymore. I think probably accidentally hit the area where the Siri was because I was accidentally activating Syria all the time I once I moved out. That wasn't a problem, but I have it set to be a pretender, a bunch of keys mode, so it just shows f one F two like that's. It doesn't even change. PERHAP- anymore because I was I was getting distracted by changing. Know would change. I said EXCO to changes to customs, things as far as shows the thumbnails, and just I didn't even need that visual noise in my life so now literally as a worse version of buttons for me. I'm not trying to convince either. You're wrong or anything, but my initial impression is hey, that's neat thing and I like it so far. If there is one of us who would like it, it's you. Yeah that's true I I'm not convinced I will like it again. or I will continue to like in a month or two, but sitting here now it's novel and interesting and neat so cool I guess. But in general the the laptops really great. Hey, did you guys I have a actually breaking piece of news? Having more than one port on a laptop is really fit inconvenient. Who knew who knew that that would be so convenient? Why didn't you guys tell me about this a long time ago? Because it's so convenient, turns out turns out in deed It's so delightful. Having having not having to get a dog allowed just plug in two things at once, and that actually brings me to. One of the things I've been plugging in fairly often is a is an ethernet adapter because. One of the few things that I wish still on these computers you know, I could live without the card whatever i. don't even necessarily need a old USB port like I'd probably prefer it, but I don't need it, but you know what I really wish was in these darn computers was an Ethernet Jack Off. It would. It would make them way too big in or to just it'll be bad in so many ways, but I would totally take ethan check. I would even take one of those heinous like pop out once. We were talking about last week that. I would take one of those man I absolutely would, but anyway I've been plugging in these tunnels the particular USB. Ethan Dungle I had that I've that I've had since the adorable was new. For whatever reason, maybe this is something I missed, but it has been extremely flaky, and it seemed that it was particularly perturbed about being placed. How many alliteration can I get in here? It was particularly concerned about being placed on the non portside. Darn it I almost have another one hundred, the right hand side of the computer and I don't know, aren't there like some weird differences about the left and right side ports or something like that, or is that only about power delivery? There have been certain models where the I believe. The right side ports didn't have as much data transfer ban on fundable controller. As the other side ports, just because like the CPU only had certain amount of bandwidth or a certain amount of pcie lanes or something like that it was I. Believe Limited always only to the thirteen inch for port models. Yeah, and I and I don't know if that's true. The current generation or not regardless it wouldn't matter for the purposes of Ethan at Port like it would matter if you're cooking up big monitors and stuff or like massive radar, as that actually makes up at bandwidth, sure and so I have a new USC Ethan after coming because I suspect this one is just a piece of garbage but yeah, having multiple ports really really cool. I really enjoy that WHO knew. We are sponsored this week by fully everything you need to find your work. Flow fully makes really great office furniture. Their workplace furniture is designed for health, flow and balance during these you know kind of uncertain times fully is helping people and businesses across the US Canada. And Europe make the transition to working from home with their modern, environmentally friendly and ethically manufactured office furniture fully is also still working hard to continue to ship free, direct and next day I had to say when you're looking for office furniture now. 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Is Thinking both before it arrived after derived like am I gonNa WanNa return this week after we know potentially what's going to be happening with a an arm CPU, and in new fancy laptops and I think I. Stand by what I said last week which is. I can see myself folding when it comes to like some sweet, new industrial design or even just A. Black spray painted black color God. I wanted that black polycarbonate macbooks so badly. But short of that I don't think. I want to be on the bleeding edge of an arm transition. Sitting here now I don't have any MOCKUPS. I have no plans for MAC APPS and. I don't think I wanna go through all the. I don't know like. Pain of. All of my software stop working. which is what you guys were talking about earlier like I don't know when we don't necessarily need to get into it, but say stupid stuff like ffm-peg, and Youtube DL and other shell stuff that I use really often. Do those have installations for arm. Will somebody put those together? I mean I don't have any interest in building. This source although I know I could like. How was that stuff going to work? And you can? You can treat that as rhetorical or not, but I don't think I want to be on the bleeding edge of having all of having entire tool chain not work, and so even if there is some. And sexy new MAC book announced next week. Even if it has some sweet new industrial design sitting here today, ignorance is lists I. Don't think I would want Oh yeah oh yeah. That plunged. I went. They're going to get so much email. Anyway I don't think I want a new arm laptop right now in two or three years Oh. Yes, I do but sitting here now. I don't think so am I crazy to think that or is that? Does that make sense what we went through one transition when the Mac one CPA transition when the MAC had a bunch of command line utilities right so the the power in del happened in the ten era. And, so we know how this shakes out. What happened when power MACs and you had whatever ffm-peg or you know? W or whatever the hell you were using. From the command line, and then the next came out and yeah, the people who maintain those projects to make files so that they built on x eighty six Max. You may say oh well. They were just going to x eighty six, and it's easy. All those things already built an eighty six, but. Like it's not the same we're different compiles different operating system. You can't just use the lyrics makes violent. AMAC anyone who's tried to compile something from source knows that unless the program is very simple there. Obviously you have to make I. Don't think I've ever gotten one to work. Obviously tweaks. You have to make, but yeah. I feel like the. Whole their issue they may touch on a little bit, but like the people who maintain these projects by there is Youtube L. OR FM pay, or whatever at the time of the Intel transition, and probably now it's not unreasonable to think of some of them. Some of those developers who work on those projects might be using MACs themselves, and so are therefore highly motivated and in a position to know how to. Make it so that they build on the Max and obviously the more obscure the command line utility you're using the less likely it is. Actually updates make files for, but eventually all software that is in active use in being developed will get ported. That's my hope, unless something really terrible happens related to this. Which I think is. The topic that I just moved up in the notes because I want to touch it now because I won't have a chance to talk about this once W3c goes, and we know the answer on. This I'll try to make as quick as I. Do want to get to the topic Zephyr that. Was Thinking about this after last week. Show, we were going to go here. Here's what the are Mac you know looks like it's coming. The speculate about what it's going to be like and you know we talked sort of A. About the stuff that's likely to happen. But a lot of the feedback as as evidence from foul about the kits has been okay well, we talked about what's likely to have mode about stuff that seems like it might be unlikely, but it's still plausible and one. You know description of a of a a theme that ran through it. You back is. The. The thing not here is a new breed of Max. And the idea that architecture transition is an opportunity to change stuff up. You don't have to. There's nothing about an architecture transition says you have to change rules of the game and really you redid, but it's. It's an opportunity to do that. It's a discontinuity. Things are going to be all screwed up anyway, so if there's something you WanNa do. Do it now. Because when everything's up in the air is the perfect place to do it like you get all the pain out of the way at once. A lot of the pain. They've got another way already. Just like getting off of sixty four bits that are not to have thirty two bit arm. All Deprecating Olympia is getting rid of carbon. Lots of stuff has happened leading up to this. But transition to arm gives apple the opportunity to really rethink everything about this product line all the way up to and including known suggested this, but I thought of it and again the least likely thing is. You don't need this new line of arm based computers. They run a MAC OS. Like they don't even need to be Max, they don't. They could run an operating system. That's not just like they made. IPAD OS like well brand new operating system. I mean we all know it's the IRS that you're running for? You just gave her name. What apple just says? The MAC has run its course. There's no more MAC and now we have a new brand name for these computers that are basically you know running Mac os, but we're going to give that brings a new name because the one that runs on arm is not Mac. Os. It's whatever Os and these are new. Whatever computers rebrand right? And change all the rules about what is now. I don't think is going to happen. The MAC has huge amount of value editor, but like that's at one end of the spectrum, a spectrum, the other end of the spectrum. What we talked about last show. It's like Oh, they'll be Max, but they have. Like! Normal Transition! Between those two end points though there's lots of interesting things that can happen and I was just musing about them. One of them is. The here a lot of people talk about Oh will. Not Be able to run non sandbox applications anymore we'll. Everything needs to be notarized. Only I only be able to install APPs from the MAC APP store unless I go into A. Mode all the stuff that we talked about in terms of security and running signs software, and all the way down to a will I be able to build a pagan. Just run it. Oh, because it's not signed, or whatever will be able to download arbitrary applications without. Doing stuff like disabling system integrity, whatever the the equivalent of that may be like disabling security features. Is this the time that apple can really lock down the MAC right again? Nothing about the and says that that has to be the case, but we know apple has wanted to and has been working towards making the Mac more secure. As secure as ipads and iphones, or whatever this transition is an opportunity for them to change the rules of what constitutes a Mac to change the all those rules about you know what software can be installed. you know so I I i. don't think any of those likely because again. What the Hell's the point of the Mac? If you're just GONNA make it into an IPAD Weirdo s right, but I'm on the lookout for things like that happening now and even though I obviously getting rid of the Mac and calling it, something else is ridiculous. I'm not putting a past apple to give this new line of arm based Max, some kind of prefix or suffix, or other kinds of branding distinguishes them from the Max that came before it again i. don't think it's likely we talked about the likeliest lascaux like this is. This is my last chance to say. Here's all the weird stuff that could happen probably won't but could happen. I don't know what the hell they would call. It I don't know what the prefix or suffix could be, but it is an opportunity to distinguish especially you're changing the rules to distinguish this new line of arm based Max from the previous ones, if you're changing the rules about its offer can be loaded and sand boxing in third party, software, and other more lockdown, or whatever and you have a boatload of good news to share like. Like Hey, these are the batteries last long time these are super fast, or whatever you can tack on a bunch of maybe not so appealing things in that same package and branded as you know whatever I don't I'm not even speculate what name might be, but those were all things that are up in the air back when I was saying before it was like just because what they did one thing from sixty a to power. and. Similar thing from power to Intel doesn't mean do they have to do the exact same playbook for this transition? That was a long time ago the the the sixty even longer ago. Apple is free to make moves like that that it thinks bringing it towards his new unified future where everything runs, so if you I everything runs on arm arm based see us build themselves and the IPAD and the MAC move closer to each other, and like there is this future that we seem to be moving towards? And this architects change if it actually happens, is a point where apple can make all sorts of changes, and the thing is even the most of the stuff I've laid out. Here is like they promised can do that stuff, right? There's something from this bucket of probably not GonNa do it's GonNa. Be In there like maybe a good thing that we think they're not going to do like. Oh? Last week know mark was probably not going to boot camp maybe turns out. They do boot camp and it's good news. Hey, there's the thing that really we didn't think they were GONNA do at least out of the gate, but it did it. Yeah, but it could also be a by the way this. The false security restrictions don't let anybody install any MAC outside the MAC APP store, which developers would hate and then have to tell everybody how to like you know disable you, know go to system preferences and Click on Integration Password and click a thing. Let's run applications. Don't come to the MAC APP, store. But if they're going to do that. Now's the time to do it because especially, if you you know these are brand differently, or whatever anyway those are. I try to be brief. I'm sorry. Those are my thoughts on a new breed of Max. If there's going to be a new breed of Max the spectrum from all the way from, they're not even called Max anymore to. They're exactly like we said last show, but with one thing that is either a bit of good news or bad news. That's in my mind now as we are. Less than a week from WDC. Yeah! That's definitely possible. And before I, forget some quick, follow up I just wanted to try to avoid a week of email from people telling us this Casey. All Your ffm-peg, everything's fine because. For arm because it runs on raspberry pies as well as There is some arm use in the world as well I know it's not like super mainstream. It's also not super obscure at this point so a lot of stuff has been for arm already for the server world, but definitely also raspberry pies and stuff like that, so yes, well, John said it's not you know you can't take those exact same. Make files and run the MAC OS that modification I'm sure. Most of the hard work has already been done, and so many of those packages should be able to be updated like in homebrew without too much effort I would imagine. So, anyway, that that part I worried about worry about. The party's you're worried about is closed. Source software the all these open source packages like somebody. Somebody can do the work if it hasn't been done and make compile and make it work. But if you have some close source, APP that you're relying on. That is not currently maintained. That's where you're going to have the problem. If there is a compatibility layer for running code on new our Max which I. Honestly I think that's a big. If I wouldn't actually expect one. Because I, think it will be too slow into crappy, so if there is a compatibility layer. I would expect it to only be around for a couple of years. You know it's not going to be in the forever the way or is that it wasn't in the US forever. But John I think your your concept or your potential idea for what if they make other big? Mac Line. I. Don't expect any new product name things -sarily like. What would they call it? Knowing today's apple? They would just call it the apple book all. They have no other good names. They didn't ditch Mac like what were they going? Yeah, Apple Book The apple pro I apple I. Don't you know they make new names anymore? They just know the MAC name has way too much value to ditch it. I'm just pinning that as an end of the spectrum. Yeah, so I I wouldn't expect a new name, because I think having giving the arm, products, a unique name or suffix or prefix or anything. I think that would only make sense if they were intended to only ever be part of the product line rather than replacing the entire product line and out I really doubt that the case, I think the the plan is for arm to go across the entire product line over a few years most likely so I wouldn't expect that to really be like a I. Don't expect us to be a temporary or partial park line conversion, and for that reason I don't think. Think, the naming would actually change only the thing to keep in mind, though and this is weird for historical reasons, but they did this with the power transition. They called the power MACs, the gave them all prefixed now it's weird because they were already powerbook's, but there were sixty eight K. no, it doesn't quite track exactly, but they literally said that it's the now the new power Mac because they had power and they just called them. Power MACs forever and ever. Until eventually I think Intel's when they finally dropped it, but yes, so it's not inconceivable. That could happen powers, obviously a cooler name than anything we can think of off the top over had related to arm there sure as hell not going to call arm, Max, are apple MACs, a Max or Mack arms, or Mac airs or like God. I'm so afraid to even speculate about apple naming things, but the name perfects thing is not without precedent. I don't predict it is obviously less likely scenario I'm much more interested in like. Oh, now's the time we've changed the security settings on your and make it more difficult for you to install stuff from command line tools. I'm more worried about that. And that's first of all. That's a valid concern. Because apple they do have a pattern of. Locking down the Max slowly more more over time making things a pain in the butt slowly more time in the name of security. And certainly I. do think the transition will totally remove and drop. Any software API that is that is currently deprecated so things like the G. L. I. Don't think open Borana arm ever. I think that's this gone so any software that use it. It's been deprecated for a couple of years now. I think I seriously doubt that will make it over. It's like an again. Boot Camp I. Think is Gone I. Think anything anything related to actually. I would predict is not supported at all. so we are going to have some losses there, but as for like. A bitter pill to swallow with the rest of the OS, any kind of new restrictions on our software abilities or a hardware peripherals. I don't think it's GonNa, be. was going to be any like you know massive changes to what most people ever need to do. Including developers because the reality is, they saw a Lotta Max developers. So I don't think they would ever have things like making you can't compile your own version ffm-peg or anything like it might continue to be increased pain in the butt, but they're already on that track anyway I. Don't think it would be anything more of a pain in the butt than what we already have to deal with with Catalina and its various bs so I I think I, WanNa make this transition as Kind of transparent and smooth as possible because what they don't want is to ruin the MAC like they're trying to make the MAC better. Presumably, I think they've shown A. Pretty good tracker that over the last couple of years now after after a very dark time, but they've gotten through that. I think we're we're now. We're now in the light again. For the most part for cases, touch bar, but otherwise like you know we're forgetting there. And so I trust them trying to keep it good. And so I. Think I don't think they're going to use this opportunity to. Really, break or like super unreasonably lockdown a significant amount of new stuff. I think it will be Mac os ten dot, but what are we going to sixteen for the next one? Whichever is the first version that supports arm. It'll just be like any other Mac os release, where like things are little bit more ratchet down in certain ways like you're not going to get like unsigned kernel extensions. You might not get any kernel extensions who knows? But I don't think you're going to be dealing with stuff that is going to be. A big pain in the butt or highly restrictive to what almost anybody to do it their Mac especially, if you like get rid of legacy, hardware support needs, which is a lot of resentment extensions, for instance like if you say these new Max only support you know usb whatever peripherals that support standard whatever you know if you have certain research like that in place with new hardware could be pretty reasonable for new stuff. I don't mean to be big additional restrictions. I think they want this. Just just be like. Here's the mack that here's Max. You've already had that you know you. You know what this is. You know to expect. It's a Mac a runs Mac APPs. ASTERISK that had been re for arm, and that's it and no other meaningful restrictions. Colonel Centers going away. Even if we don't transition d'arme like right multi year thing. And this is just an example of. The transition being a place to just accelerate even existing plans like Oh, actually kernel extensions aren't GonNa go away, and until until ten dot seventeen, but an arm the go into sixteen. Just because how about we just never have them there? Then problem solved because nobody's kernel extensions written forum now, so we just say no. They're gonNA. They're probably be gone from six at the same time. Anyway. I want to do two quick. It's here before we move onto the next thing. You mentioned. Intel. A emulation? What are our predictions mark already said he does not expect arm macos to have any form of exit. You run old APPS that recombine them Casey your opinion, your guests, your prediction. I would want there to be something like Rosetta Rosetta to if you will. I think that would do a lot to alleviate a lot of pain of moving to a place where software doesn't really exist. If you're case if it wasn't built by Apple, but I don't know how possible that will be. Based on the hardware. Is Really screaming fast as we hope then, maybe it would be doable. Maybe would be fine. I also think though that Apple. Is Not afraid to use the stick rather than the carrot, and so it wouldn't surprise me if apple perceived it as well if we have Rosetta two, that'll let the developers that have X. Eighty six software not have a fire under their bottoms to compile for arm and We really want them compiling for arm, so screw it. Let's not offered at all, and if they really need the software, they'll like virtual is with. With the mayor, or what's parallels, or whatever the case may be and do a macro at the eighty sixth Mac os installation on top of that, and that'll be good enough for them, so I'm going to say I want it to be there but I don't think it'll be there especially since apple seems to be on their high horse about how mighty and powerful. They are these days which we're about to talk about. You know. Keep in mind like anything like you were talking earlier about. As John was talking about options for a delicate, and they're being a software, only one and you very quickly corrected yourself, and you said simulator to emulator, because the simulators for IOS APPS are able to be really fast 'cause you're running native code. The whole point of this transition would be. It would have to emulate arm. On the and same thing in reverse now, if to run Intel software on arm, you can't just do like full speed simulation, or what hyper visor is do with virtual machines and stuff where you are able to run full speed and native code. You can't do that when you have a different architecture, you have to emulate the whole thing and emulation is really slow. And, there are like Rosetta was pretty advancing me later I'm sure maybe there's also similarly advancing techniques that we've developed since then. That have made a a little bit better than it used to be, but it's still a really slow process, so running software Rosetta was something that you could do it, and some stuff was. You wouldn't notice the speed difference, but lost. You would and so i. don't see that being a great solution for most people for most APPs. and. That's why I don't think absolutely ship it at all. So one thing from history that was going around on twitter and people were discussing this like the the. Name of. It was but the thing that emulated sixty eight K on power PC. Very quickly, I, don't know if it was on the first set of paramedics, but maybe on the second or third set of paramedics could emulate sixty eight K faster than any Sixty Aka Mac ever actually ran it like it was. The emulator was faster than. Now now it helps that the policy was much faster than sixty AK, and it also helps the that was in the period in the nineties or whatever when shifts were getting so much faster every year. And you know we just talked about Rosetta but you know what I'm getting at. Is that both times has done this? Their emulators have been really good. Obviously, yeah, emulation is slower, but both times they again both times it in the past Moore's law was much more effect than it is today, so they took advantage of that, and gave them a backward compatibility story, a pretty good backward compatibility star, in fact with the sixty eight k department. In backward compatibility story that apple itself needed because they didn't get their whole operating system onto power received for years after the transition. Just because there's so much legacy stuff there, but they did such a good job with those, and I understand all the reasons that both think they're not going to have one. They all make sense to me but something. My Gut is telling me because apple has done it twice before, and they were so good. Good at it. There's enough institutional, perhaps wrongheaded institutional momentum behind it that it would be part of the transition strategy and I'm going to predict. I probably wouldn't put money on it, but I'm going to be the odd one out here and predicted. There actually is a way to run exit software his arm things using relation, and yes, it will be slower, and yes, it won't be as good as either of the two transitions that are just. Kind of just feel like it's an apples DNA to do this. I have my fingers across. As he said I want it to be true and I think I. Just want it so much that I'm willing to produce. The final thing we can't take as long as we quicker named Sir. Magwar ten sixteen. There's a story that wouldn't the show where someone's going through. Like things at apple has trademarked trying to pull the names out of it. Catalina came out of these trademarks. The remaining ones that are still trademarked are mammoth Monterey or skyline, and of course it could be something entirely new of namath Monterey Skyline in. Of your choice, what would you predict as ten sixteen? Name. If the arm, transition is happening. It has to be mammoth right because it's the marketing itself because Manas have arms. No because it's a mammoth change. Like this this mammoth change, and it's Mac and it's macaroni. Reasoning the reasoning works. That attracts Marco man so. With the disclaimer I don't know anything about these actual places in California. Saying none of us know this is all just blind you can pick. You can pick other. You can name of your choice probably sitting California. Or maybe break the naming scheme and call it something different Yeah Fair enough. So it was mammoth monitoring, what was Thurman Skyline Skyline That's a that's a place name, not like the Chili chain in Cincinnati. Apparently put it into. Put it into Google maps. so. I think the one that sounds the coolest is Monterey therefore. That's the one they're going. Pick I the one. They're going to pick as mammoth. It's the weirdest. I think. I don't know I don't know enough to pick an other. I, think Monterey is the most likely but I'm rooting for skyline. Skyline would be a better one for shore. I just think that if I'm apple, I would choose mammoth real-time follow skyline. Chili still exists. I'm very excited. It is still a cincinnati-based chilly chain, not not in California definitely, not I we we in Columbus and I'm pretty sure like I, don't I? Don't think it really leaves Ohio though it traveled from Cincinnati Columbus halfway across the state, and that's about it so quickly because I can't resist now we're never gonNA end the show that's going to be twelve hour show. do universal binary. Come back and are they still called universal wineries. I would imagine. It would probably work the same way like the fat binary system I believe supports any number of architectures So this would just be like another one that would be in their potentially high may not from the map star, because that will do what the backup store does, which is stripped down to just the just the code, your particular machine needs, but for individual developers. Yeah, they'd be able to make them fat. We are sponsored this week by owed cloud hosting my favorite web host whether you're working on a small project just for yourself or Managing Your Enterprises Infrastructure Lynn owed cloud hosting has the pricing support and scale. 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Thank you so much for hosting my servers and sponsoring our show. What is going on with? Hey, the email APP in inbox because. We're not saying that word stop. I also hate Im- box, but you know here we are. I. I've I only have so many things I can be outraged about and so I haven't really followed this very closely. And I'm falling down on. My job is chief summariser and chief, but I am I. Understanding is an interrupt me when you're ready that they released this new email apple. Pay Email, APP and the. First experience on the IPHONE is basically put in your username and Password, and if you don't have one, you need to figure out by magic or a divining rod where you need to go on the road in the rest of the world to get yourself a username and password, and I guess the initial APP one dotto came out, and then when they tried to get one dot co dot one out then. Then apple said no, you can't do this because in APP purchasing at purchasing that purchase, and then there's been a big Brouhaha ever since mostly because our Hansen is a very well known developer and CEO or CTO or whatever on the Internet and from base camp. In what is it thirty seven signals? That right was that the old name? It was formerly thirty seven signals. They made a product called. And it became the main thing they did and I think adventure being the only thing they did, and so they renamed the company to base camp. Right right right, so I mean that's Kinda the extraordinarily to brief summary I i. have feelings about this, but I don't know if they're fair. Because I haven't looked into this enough, one of you would like to take me through the deeper blow by blow. Summary of what's actually happening. Think we need to go blow by blow. I think this is. This is interesting for a couple of reasons like. It's interesting because of the timing. We talked on this show over many many years about. Oh, APP store rejections. This was rejected. It seems like it shouldn't have been like this is not a new story is is this is the shape of the same story it's like. Apple. Tweak the rules are changed them or interpreted them differently and its effectiveness developer, and it seems unfair and the developer depending on complaints about it. That's the same story, but the timing is interesting for two reasons one. It's happening right before WBZ here. We are the you know the week for WBZ, not great timing for one of these things to blow up as as you mentioned because David Hammer Hanson is very loud on twitter and is already famous, and you know there's a lot of stories being written about. Apple doesn't love that you know apple hates. This apple does not want this to be a story anywhere. Regardless of you know what like. The the actual specifics of the issue apple hates it when their stories like this one of the things they don't run to the press like. Davis second is that eyeballs in the process of in various legal battles, and potentially even in the United States. Antitrust. RULINGS AGAINST THEM IN THE EU and potential legislation in the United States, going through Congress and just. They it's not a good time for this issue to come up on that front either because of lawyers busy writing lawyerly type press releases disagreeing with decisions in the EU. And I'm not tracking the individual legal cases here, but it's like you know to address like do these tech companies have too much power over the market, and it seems like there's growing momentum in the various legislative bodies across this planet to see if there's something that can be done to check, not just apple, but all the big tech companies you know for all the reasons you would imagine privacy concerns, market power, competition, anticompetitive behaviour. Apple has been down this road before with Amazon and the yearbook thing and they lost that one like this. This is just generally. Bad timing. For, Apple. and maybe good timing for everybody else. The like this this specific instance here if I was. Like. I was. Talking about this I think like I can feel like I can talk about it with someone at apple without reference to anti-trust to. Individual developers to like fairness and rule changing in power and monopolies and everything. That the argument that I would make an have always made, and we'll continue to make on. This specific issue is that it's better for everyone including apple? If apple just gets out of its own way, and let's people make better applications. We had the same conversation when the kindle APP was out there. The kindle APP is a better APP. If you can buy books on it. It just is right and apple doing everything in its power to make that not happen. Oh, you can't even mention that you can go buy the things on Amazon Dot Com. This is all old news I just really changed since, but like that whole thing of like. Make it so the APP doesn't say anything about where you can sign up for Netflix's like people will just have to know that because it wouldn't be better in the APP. If you could for Netflix right there in the APP and Apple, you can do that. Just give us thirty percent, and it's like apple like we know. It's not gonNA happen right. No one wants to give you netflix. Netflix does not want to give you thirty percents of their income or a third of the sign up center through the APP like they. They used to do that and they don't anymore. And you know there's a lot of money that went away. Same thing with Amazon Amazon literally can't give you thirty percent of every e book sale because there's not that much money to ring from that stone. And David Hammer Hanson basecamp sure as hell. Don't want to give thirty percent of all the hey. Dot Com subscription like no one wants to do that, and by making these rules and thinking. If we make these rules, we will have enough power to force us to happen. History showing it just doesn't happen. No one's GonNa, give that money, and so all it does is. It makes the APPS worse in the APP store APPs that are inexplicably worse where you can't do things that you would. Developers want you to be able to do it. The users want to do them, but it's just not happening this is. Not a situation where interest and incentives are correctly aligned to make better and better APPS, everything is aligned to be oppositional and to result in getting worse at us. Getting worse. APPS in the end reflects poorly back on apple. I'm sure they've heard this argument. A million times like this is the whole debate. Is it better to try to go for that thirty percent, and of course they have better control, and we don't want to send you to a scammy website to use other people's payment methods and Yada Yada Yada. But. The the Golden Apple is shooting for a world where they have all the control and also get all the money at also have apps that have all the features of the customers expect is never going to happen like the APP store has been around long enough to know. That's not gonNA happen. The companies will not give you. Literally can't and stay in business. Give you that thirty percent so give it. The best case stopped trying to make fetch happen like you're. Not, going to ever get it all best case scenario. We get tense cold. War were Azer inexplicably stupider than they need to be. Developers, Cranky and apple's platform has apposite or worse on Google spot for the competing platform the. Mobile Platform. APPs have fewer restrictions in this particular regard, and the APPS are better for them. That's not good for apple, and so I, you know every time on these comes up i. just hope that like whoever is arguing the side that just Which I'm surely has been argued inside apple for years. I hope they get a little bit closer to winning like so the more damaging and annoying this this particular blow up is about. Hey Dot, com, an email service being subjected to rules that other maps weren't that eventually rolling out across every like it's you know it's a story we've seen before, and it's a sad story, and it's stupid and the restrictions don't make any sense to consumers and the restrictions are very annoying. Slash company killing to to the developers involved and we get worse apps like. I hope. I'm excited that H. Twitter is super loud because he can afford to be super loud, and he's using his fame to good effect and it happening through right in front of wwe with antitrust stuff going on I hope that all comes to head unless apple before it's too late. Give up on, it's on. It's impossible dream of having of of making developers both give it three percent of the money and also make better applications for consumers. That's that's my feeling. Is Issue that like? I. I don't WanNa root for for like a PR below, but sometimes That's the only way things change and I really hope this time it doesn't just like blow up and then fizzle again and on the on Apple. Side of this thing that have going for them is that they have WBZ, and if our maximum super mazing that will change the conversation, and for a while, people forget about. Hey, DOT com. and. That'll kind of be a shame and honestly I. Don't want apples. WWe To be overshadowed stupid APPs or stuff I just want apple to do. Quote unquote the right thing meaning the thing that I think that they've been resisting doing. In favor of the strategy that's producing worse outcomes. To. This. This kind of stuff just makes me mad because apple has. It's a big company. There's a lot of. Sides to it. There's a lot of personalities in it, and we see multiple sides of the different times one of the dark sides of Apple. Is They can be. Incredibly Power Hungry and shockingly stingy. That certain things are good value. Certain things like every WGC when they open up some API that. We thought they'd never opened up like. Wow, that's that's great. We really surprised. Everybody. Opening up this API that seemed it'd be lockdown forever or whatever. But then there's a dark side where they do some things, and they stand by certain things that are just. Embarrassingly Stingy for a company that produced premium products and prides itself in quality. and. Almost unconscionably stingy for a company that has so much money as they have. It's like it's a bad look to be super, rich and super cheap about stuff. One of the biggest areas of this is the stupid and I purchase rule. So this is the same rule as you mentioned that the vents Amazon from offering and at purchase now there's an asterisk on that now. Amazon kind of sometimes can offer in Africa's because Apple Needs Amazon more than Amazon needs apple in certain ways, and so they negotiated a made a special deal. Net flicks famously like you know they. They had an APP purchase for a while. They removed it that caused friction. That hasn't been resolved yet, but Netflix's allowed to do something that now. Hey, dot, com can't do. which is the? And Amazon had, and in many places still has which is okay. We don't want US your purchase system. Because thirty percent is a lot I often think they're all the money ever made from apple all the APPS. INST- Paper the magazine overcast all the money I make from Apple. They keep like almost half as much again more than that. I have made apple a lot of money over all these years Netflix's made like when Netflix's can there in thing like they had numbers like it was like hundreds of millions of dollars. Maybe it was even billions like Netflix gave apple the thirty percent cut for a really long time, and arguably they benefited from that well, and it was really fifteen percent behind the scenes for like. They had a special deal for a while. It's still like hundreds of millions of dollars and. So when it gets back to my earlier point, Netflix stopped that those hundred million dollars just stopped cold. Right at apple was like no, we like hundreds of millions like well. You know and as you said that hasn't been resolved the Amazon thing, and of course you know as we've mentioned many times of the best, not everyone is Amazon Netflix, so the negotiating special deal for yourself right, and so the way it's been you know to date. Until fairly recently is. If you didn't want us or couldn't use apples in that purchase system, you could have an APP it gives you log inform, but it never mentions like. Where do you create this account? And the rules have actually gotten more strict over time. It used to be that like you link out Safari. They clamped down pretty fast and that after a couple years I think that. You can't even do that, but you can. At least mention like good sign up and in recent years. You can't even do that in recent years. You can't even mention a website that you could go to create an account. You can't link to a support page that if you click a few links in the browser. After you get there, you can get to a purchase page. They have gotten remarkably strict about like okay. If there's any way to get from your APP to a purchase page, even if it's like seventeen levels deep after after they've already jumped out of your APP into view. That still counts and they they prohibit that. Well apparently in the last few months. This has gotten even more restrictive to. Now certain types of APPS. And how defining this seems vague. They the statement that gave to some news outlet, or basically said like consumer versus business is the distinction, but that's stupid as as I think Juncker like there is no different between consumer that's that's a non enforceable distinction, and it's just clear bs from Apple They gerrymandered it like they basically drew the outlaw so exactly so it included like Netflix. Amazon it was like this is a bunch of other stuff like Oh, reader, APPs or APPS for content like try to read the language. It's like. Are you trying to say that flakes and Amazon's kindle. It doesn't consumer business doesn't make any sense, and then the the previous language also doesn't make any sense about like well. If you're a reader APP, so email is not a reader APP, but Netflix is like. What do you know if you're? If you're viewing content that had been licensed elsewhere? It's all this language is basically written to specifically include just the things they want to include without naming them by name. But, yeah, like the the the rules changed. Apparently. You know several months ago to say that even if you fall all the rules, the market outlined. Also if you're APP isn't one of these absolutely want to be like this. You can't do it. Right so no matter what and they've decided that hey is one of these APPs. That, basically. GERRYMANDERED analogy here because. It's extensively supposed to be this like codified system with like fair rule of reality, it's not at all fair all political, and it's all to to this this basically the sinister goal. This is pure blatant, shameless greed. This is apple being a huge deal. And Look I'm a huge apple fan. We all are. We happily celebrate when they do great things, and for the next few weeks were probably going to be celebrating the great things that are about to announce to us, but this situation with this rule and the way they've treated this rule over time. Is Apple being a huge all the time and it seems like they're incredible. CATOON is increasing over time with in particular about this rule. All I can speculate is they must make a ridiculous amount of money from particularly this rule. because. As, you mentioned like this rule this one thing about totally prohibiting any other outside payment system in many many types of APPs from being at all mentioned, or even now at all existing in certain types of APPs. Even when even when it's totally reasonable to have a separation like that like in this case, I think it's totally reasonable. this one rule and the way they operate this one rule is responsible for such a massive amount of not only negative sentiment. But of antitrust action and antitrust probes and competitiveness actions by governments like they are totally warranted. The Response Apple posted was yesterday to the European Commission probe. Thing whatever that wasn't. The response, they posted and the big the big puff piece. They posted at all the money that they eat that. They enable in the economy from the APP store. That was such a massive pile of bullsh- from so many different angles. It's a terrible look for apple. It makes them look like. Leading into WHAT THEY HOPE TO BE A. Rah Look at US everyone's great. We Love you developer's conference in a week. They they lead with that pile of crap. The the red like a lawyer wrote it didn't read like a lawyer rooted and not a PR person. Because you know there's like a legal case in the courts it's about and like whatever the outcome is because the verdict or something in their statements from the lawyers, lawyers always say like the most lopsided one-sided like do. Has any good points are whether they're on the winning side or the losers, but especially if they're on the losing side, it's like we disagree with this visit saying we disagree with this judgment, and we think Apple's the best company in the world and developers love it and everybody's grade like it is not like a PR thing that tries to be like balanced and have the. The, desired effect it's, it's like a lawyer wrote in and said there is no other side, but our side apple is right, and that is all there is to it, and that's why if you read it as a regular developer like. Are you kidding me apple hard working? What is it like determine developers, a level playing fields like none of these words are true like Y-. Every word of this is Ron. Yeah very bad. But, it read exactly like what you would see a lawyer ever after legal case so I feel like that's now. That is excusable. It didn't surprise me and like when there is legal case, and you come out on the losing side. Your lawyer put out a statement like that and the fact that we read it as developers like you're not supposed to look at it. That's for like politicians and lawyers so. It's. It's a terrible look like do they not know or do they not care how bad this like it's! It's so just blatantly disrespectful of our intellect. Honestly, it's the kind of thing you'd expect our president to put out if he was slightly more. Let's not go too far. He doesn't understand any sports. Yeah, it's true. It's so like stingy and double talkie, and just distorting it. It's it's almost like trying to gas. Let the public into thinking that we're not being screwed. As much as we are by apple's rule here and it's just it's just it's awful, and for for a company that prides themselves on the principles they claim to present selves on to then also be acting like this is just this crazy double talk. That is not a good look at all. Their strategy for doing these changes, it's not a new strategy, but like their strategy like reveals like what what it makes it clear what they understand about it, so the the strategy whenever they have real change like this like Oh, well, we've decided now that actually these certain kind of APPs are allowed to let you sign up elsewhere, and these other ones aren't right whatever whatever the decision is. Like the strategy they use seems to make sense if you're like. Oh, they're trying to be gentle developers right like they what they do is they make a change in this policy. And maybe they update the wording or whatever, but they don't like ban every APP right. They wait for you to have to update your APP right so that spreads out sort of the the outrage right because they make the new ruling, and like if they suddenly band every APP that like we've decided actually email APPs can't do this and they ban like every email out that does this and we'll put a link in the Charlotte's to. Twitter, thread reasons liquor these five email. APPs they all do exactly the same thing as us. How come they're not banned, right? That's not a thing that apple does. They don't say okay. We've changed a ruling. Mobs are banned from the store or they do is wait for one of those email. APPs to do an update. And they say yeah about that. Actually. There are new rules. You're no longer in compliance with Blah Blah Blah and then you got to go back and forth and deal with trying to get human, and you know, but they do that on a case-by-case basis with each individual thing, sort of demand paged outreach like as an as each one of those per tries to update. That spreads out the story, so there's not a critical mass of things and you're like what isn't it better? Isn't that kinder than pulling all the maps from the store? Wouldn't that be an incredibly hostile thing like not even getting many notice? You're pulling all the APPS like it's terrible. It's better to spread out like that, but by spreading it out like that reveals what apple clearly knows, which is, this is an. An incredibly unpopular, potentially damaging rule change they don't. Apple does not have the courage of its convictions to say. We think this rule is in the best interest of everybody users, apple and developers. They know it's not in the best interest to developers, and I think they also should know by now. It's not in the best interest of users given how we know. Developers will react to it, and so they try. Try to do it slowly and sneakily and just kind of like Oh. When you try to update or remind you and they probably think they're being kinder and gentler by doing that, and in some respects, they are, but I think I think it reveals what they know to be true that this is not this is such an incredibly unpopular and potentially damaging change. They can't literally can't afford PR wise to do. Do it how they would do a good rule change say the rule change was. Hey, we're not taking thirty percent anymore. We're taking twenty five. You think they would demand page that out. No announcing a new apply to everyone instantly because it's good news when you got bad news, don't really say anything and spread it out and that's that's just like it comes off as sneaky in shady even though I think. They think they're motivated internally by trying to be kind with that and I see that angle, there is an aspect of that but I, just if you find yourself having to do that, maybe rethink the rule change you're making. The APP store has always had. This problem of the rules as written are pretty vague in a lot of ways, they leave a lot to like case interpretation, and they've always been enforced pretty inconsistently I've heard stories about the like specifically wanting to make examples out developers. That's one of the reasons why people like James. Thompson who have like you know public apps like he makes peacock. He's been screwed over in weird ways so many times a preview. I've heard that was actually intentional to make an example out of popular developers, so they spread the word, so apple doesn't have to. Whenever they would have one of these. Slight changes or negative changes to the way rules being enforced. and. They would pick on some developer. I used to think it was just random or that. Maybe maybe it was down to like you know views to humans. Maybe some of them interpret things differently at different times, and they just have to. Get there get their enforcement consistent. And they were just GonNa. Get to it. I no longer think that. I think it's very clear that when they when they have these like behind the scenes and forfeit changes that usually by the way in this case also are not. updated. In the published rules like there, there was not a published rule. Update a few months ago. That made this rule start being enforced differently, but it was. I no longer think that it would that. It's just because they like want to be gentle about it or don't want to tell us I. think it's a tactic. It's a tactic to really help like. Money out of people, because if you publish the rules the way they are in all honesty in direct clear terms like this then somebody like base camp brisk releasing a new APP. Would already know before they developed the APP over months or years. They would already know we can't do this without supporting at purchase, and that might affect whether they choose to make it. How did choose to price it, etc? Actual the rule change that forbids this type of thing actually did happen many months ago. The problem is that the base camp logically was not just reading the letter of the rules, but saying how does the APP store actually work in practice? The way the APP store actually works is there are existing email APPs the do this. Right, so regardless of whether or not, the rule is a rule change back in whatever it was like. If you read it closely, it's like. Are we a reader APP? Are we a business? APP like you know whatever like those words have been in there, but then you look at the actual store and say well, it's basically comes down to interpretation. It's like well I. Think these rules would forbid our APP, but there's lots of it's open to a lot of. Of Interpretations Let me. Look at what's actually happening on the store. which is what all developers do like to do. Their due diligence have to anyone we ask because apple never fully documented their rules, but but what I'm saying is. I don't think apple needs to change the text to comply with this rule because the text that is in their fits with the Gerrymander that they are doing is just, but the thing is because they slow. Roll it because they don't. Enforce it at once. If you look around and say well, what's actually happening on the APP store? What you may see is oh. It seems like this is allowed. I see a bunch of other competitors doing exact same thing I bet we're good. We'll just watch and make sure they don't change the rules and you watch, and they don't actually change the text but little. Did you know that the exchange three months ago and apple is in the process of slowly rolling out their interpretation of those rules you'd. You'd think you know the interpretation because you see this APP on the APP store ready, but really that developers going to find out the next time they tried to the point release that they're mistaken about the interpretation of those roles like that. That's slow rollout. It's so terrible because there's just no way like the tools we have our. We can look at the text, but then we might have a different interpretation, and we can look what's happening the APP store, but then what's happening. APP STORE IS A. Trailing indicator of what's actually going on because of the way, apple rolls out these type of policy changes, and like I, said I can imagine them thinking. They're trying to be kind with the slow roll out, but it make just just impossible to figure out what's going on and it. Just you know it just Kinda shady now. At this point I have thrown all all possibility they're doing is trying to. To be kind I think it used to be that they were trying to be like a little bit weasley about avoiding bad pr, because whenever you change the rules publicly. If it's going to be in the direction of making things more restrictive like this, it will generate bad pr so I think they to just do it quietly. Hope no a notice which is absurd. Really because everyone will, we will notice. And I think it backfired on now, because if this change if this if they started slow rolling out this change in March. It just so happened to have come to the head right now. If they had done the change all, they would have taken the bed pr in March, but by doing the slower a lot where you don't really have control over how slow rolls out, but you don't know when people are going to try to update their APPS right and getting unlucky to essentially like that. Hey, dot com launching right before wbz in their high profile. They have enough money and the nerve to say Fu to apple. And by the way, D. H. has already testified in front of Congress in the US about tech antitrust issues so. The perfect storm of bad timing, and the OJ is talking to them again right so this is a perfect storm of bad timing, but like this is one potential consequence of a slow roll out of a rule, change and boy like obviously. Apple can't plan for these things and sure put a monkey wrench into all of this, but it's like not this Lee Lee live by the sword die by the sword, like if this is going to be your strategy, this eventuality of like someone inside apple might be mad, but like. How do we let this happen the week before? It's like you only have yourself to blame like you were in control of this whole process. You decided to do it this way. and. This is the consequence. Again I. I don't think this is even being weasel anymore like I used to be being weasley. Let's try to avoid bad press by not publishing anything and just hope it goes away right like like when a kid gets in trouble, and they bury their heads their head on their hands like they like. Oh, if I can't see it then I won't get in trouble like the problem. We'll just go away like I. started out that way, but now I think with this particular the way they're enforcing this and the way they have been enforcing those. I think it's a tactic because you are able to. Build. Your entire business spilled the entire. APP spend God knows how time and money building out a service, and an APP and everything. Get it into the store. Maybe even get version one point. Oh out there, and then we Friday. Submit your update Bam, you update. You got to issue this right now, or you gotTA. You gotta add at our payment system right now. It's like. They I think it is now a tactic to be putative and to be kind of kind of any to be to really get people when they are most desperate and look. They're trying to launch a service here. You Know Hey. Just service and instead of being a launch it now now they have a serious problem with the interface that is on probably the most popular device that would be used to access that service. And, they can't like apples holding it hostage until they pay up until they agree to their extortion scheme. There is no charitable way to look at this. Oh, you've chosen the least charitable whether they intentionally at one point through to get their APP launch, and then took them on point I'm not willing to go that far and think that that was intentional strategy. That's quite. That's not quite what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that they're their strategy of. Publishing these rules, not having conversations ahead of time like that's the thing people do not having coverage said it's not the rules their entire. What apple always has told developers when when it came to questions about whether APP review would would approve something like submitted has always yet. The answer has always been just build the whole thing submitted. Leader, which is not, that's not really anything. So. I? Honestly think that the way they've been doing things where they let people build entire services built entire APPS. Spend lots of you know spend years possibly millions of dollars maybe like building out services. And then only to review, slam the hammer down after they've done everything and. Their entire economics model arrested on the like vague interpretation of this rule that now apple decided to change your mind on. You have to believe that the result of that much of the time is developer saying Oh fine I guess we'll support your thirty percent now because we have to. It works so they're the strategy of being easily about this, and you know being vague and changing shifting their fourth over time. Is profitable for them. I have to imagine this. All goes back to one of the big. You know route challenges, apple faces is revenue growth. Their product lines have been you know slowing down dramatically and the economic of the world indefinite going to help them out this year, and so they've been driving for services revenue, and it's been working. They've been making lots of service revenue, but services revenue is often. Consumer, hostile or developer, hostile or both they have a significant financial motivation to ratchet up the extraction of money from existing customers newspapers, so these rules are never any of the other direction. They're never going like people always think. Like Apple, maybe this your apple lower the cut their never lowering the cut workers lucky. They don't keep raising the cut instead they do search ads. Think they did lower the cotton. They lowered it for the description thing for the first year it lowers. They lowered. If your name is Amazon or Netflix, it has happened. Yeah! Asterix Asterix everywhere. Not Not in like a mass way here this is one of the like when you have a significant push for ever-increasing aggressive growth on services revenue, the result is going to be increased friction and tension between you and your customers and your developers, because one of the most common easy ways to get additional services revenue is to just. Tighten, tighten the bolts and extract more for the same thing or make things more strict or get more stingy with importance of make. People want to pay more money to get around there that you have to pay to get around it or in this case that you have to you know, lose more of your Revenue Apple. That's just going to keep happening. There are some services revenue streams that it's beneficial. You know you look at like okay well if they offer some kind of service that people actually want offered at a reasonable price like you know, we'd be talking about Apple Arcade. It seems pretty pretty okay, so apple arcade five bucks a month. Sure we'll pay that. You don't feel ripped off by paying for Apple Arcade like you. You paid if you want to. No one's forcing you and it's fine. So there are ways to get good services revenue, but then there's also ways that you just kind of put a tax on a system already in place, or you use your your power over people or your your lock, India monopoly monopoly power to extract rent of from from everybody in in ways that like it's. You're not really providing the value that you're extracting extracting it. It because the position you're in and apple is doing a lot of that latter one is as well and I see that only increasing over time, and that's why I you know when I see crap like this happening in the APP store to developers I first of all I know there is no way that a guy complaining on twitter, even a very popular guy. Or a bunch of podcast talking about how apple's being here is actually going to change anything there, clearly making way too much money from this, and they're not about to cut into their services revenue especially not this year, so the only way this is going to change. Is Governments forced them to? And apples walking a really fine line with this rule, because this one rule as I, said earlier has clearly inspired so many government probes, and will continue to do so for any functioning government are should be doing it to I don't know if we are at least the EU has some kind of functioning consumer protection stuff. So, they're doing it at least. But this one rule about allowing alternative payment systems, and how are not allowed alternative payment systems in the APP. If. that one rule was relieved a little bit. The entire spotify complaint would evaporate basically like the like so much of the. Any trust issue with apple in the APP store would go away with justice, one rule being relaxed. It wouldn't even have to be fully relaxed. It could. It could go back to. You can link out to safari for your. I'm hitting method and then go back to your APP. Like books would be a huge relaxation of the rule. That alone would probably remove any. You know any teeth to any of these complaints, any of these trust filings and everything that would kill it. But they won't even do that so obviously. They're making a ton of money from this and it's only gonNA. Get worse over time. On their also backed into a bit of a corner like I. I shouldn't be making excuses for apple because I echo what you're saying. Marco that the seems in extremely poor taste and just mean just downright mean but. From Apple's perspective if they've shown all of the services revenue, it's not like they're going to throw it away. I mean Imagine Wall Street and the damage that they would take from Wall Street if all of a sudden they were like well. We just thought we'd be nice today, and we reduce our cut and we'd allow people get around our I. P's and you know that's cost. Cost US billion dollars or whatever the number may be because it apple scale. It might be that much and so I just to your point a second ago. Like why would they ever relaxed these rules? I think as much as I as much as I want to believe that Apple's a company that wants to do right by its customers and do right by its developers ultimately. Should've stopped with Appalachia as a company. Period. In companies are made to make money and apple like you said Marco was making a Shitload of money on all of this, and they can't stop making a shed load of money because that's what they're. Investors are are expecting, and that's who tim works for Tim Works for the investors. I don't know I come back to something that I feel like. I always heard from Gruber, and maybe maybe it wasn't him. But I that's why I always heard her heard it, which was that and I, and I might even put it put out. Apple cares about apple. I. It's user second and developers third and. This is one of those cases where we haven't gotten past up one. That apple cares about apple, and there's little room and apple heart for anyone but apple, and that's really unfortunate, because as you guys had said way early on these these decisions that apple have have made. It's a my is in arguably make these APPs worse. They absolutely do and this was covered earlier, but I can't emphasize enough. They make the APPS worse. But they make money, and that's more important apple, which to some degree is kind of why they're there, but I just it. It bums me out and I. Guess when I get angry is that I liked to delude myself into thinking that apple is a company made up of good people, which is true trying to do right by everyone, and that's not really as true. True as I wanted to be there trying to do right by apple, and if they do right by other people to than sweet, that's a good bonus, but ultimately they're trying to do right by apple and I can't necessarily fault them for it, but it just kind of bums me out that this company that I that I wanNA celebrate for being Justin Right and progressive. Ultimately at the end of the day is still just a company, and it's still just a money making machine. Yeah and that's that's where like the services revenue is so corrosive to that like If you consider like just what they what they were for the most part before of like just make good product and sell them to you. It's much easier to align what is good for apple with what is good, but their customers, and what does with developers? If you're just making great products and put them out there and people want to buy them, and then people wanNA run software on him. That's great for everybody, and that's what they did for a long time, and that's what they still mostly try to do today. But then when you also try to push into services, you introduce these potentially very corrosive incentives that actively fight against your customers and your developers, but benefit apple lot, and it takes a certain degree of. Probably like self control really to avoid those corrosive influences, and to to not go down that route as you pursue services, revenue and apple has messed that up in a few ways I I think cloud storage being so stingy is one of those ways like you know the the free tier of that this kind of stuff is gonNA. Keep happening because now if you look at the company financially. They need services revenue more than anything. It is the only area the company that is significantly growing right now. And, if you look at the product, lines have having store on the road economy being. kind of crap right now. They're GONNA be relying on services revenue for growth for a longtime. Probably because everything else, they sells pretty mature. Maybe someday they'll release some kind of. A are goggles will take over the world in some way, but so far that's not here and that might not happen so services revenue is going to be the main driver of growth financially for a while. and. That's GONNA. They're they're going to keep. Ratcheting things down or up. At the metaphors very strange, but they're gonNA keep catching things to more painful direction to get that extra money out of service revenue, and sometimes it's going to be things that we want that. We're happy to pay for, and sometimes it's not. For a company that spent most of existence, not even having to make that kind of trade off that most most of most of its existence that could make good products and keep making more good products and keep making their products better and that generated their success. So, they never really had to develop the muscle for like. Self, control against the corrosive influences of these of some of these services revenue streams. So they're really bad at it. I don't know if they will find that balance, or if money's too good for them, and it's going to corrupt the what makes them so great. Thanks to our sponsors this week. squarespace Lynn owed and fully and thank you to our members for supporting us as well. You can go to that. FM Slash joined to see for yourself and we'll talk to you next week. Now, the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental. Accidental! John. Research Marco and Casey let him because it was accidental. was. Accident does. Off You can find the show today. Dot M.. S.. A. Y. L. I assess. That's Casey lists and a CEO R. M.. Anti, Marco Arment. Are! USS Iraqs. I actually don't necessarily have any need to do. An extensive WGC predictions thing, but I would like to state on record, which is now going to convince me. It's going to cause the universe for it to be wrong because I'm feeling very smug about this production. But I just have this gut feeling. That there's going to be some pretty interesting developments on IPAD and I think specifically around the home screen I can't tell you why isn't i? Literally I it's just a gut feeling. It's not that I'm trying to hide. Anything I. I can't tell you. Why but I think that there's going to be I I'm not sure. It's GonNa. Be multitasking changes that we all really want, but. I think something about the ipad home. Screen is going to be significantly different this year, even more cons. List view for springboard I really hope that it is a refinement year for the most part I know. Oh, I hope so too I. I know we probably won't get that. And we just finished talking about like you know arm Max, and that's an archive. Transition does not a small deal. But in a way like it helps to do that transition, if the OS is fairly stable, otherwise hopefully, at least on the Mac side, I really am hoping for a stability focused year. Every time I see any like major new MAC feature. It concerns me now. I'm like first of all that means. They didn't fix published bugs. They couldn't facing in that same time and then second of all. The MAC feature so often like really buggy and half asked for the first few years that they're out possibly forever that they're out. Please stop touching the MAC in most ways, and just like refine what's already there, 'cause it needs it. And then the after the other platforms. I'm again I'm hoping for your years while because Iowa thirteen kind of sucked a for a while the only place where I really hope to see major progress in changes on. Is Watch Os. Because it needs it the most still watch os a still so primitive and limited in what apps are allowed to do. Swift you. I helped a lot. But it did, but there's still a lot more to go and. I hope gets you know a significant update for a second year, but yeah, what do you what I am a Cadillac until this exact moment? I think we'll get. We'll get cattle versions of the speech Mac. I really hope they do replace the messages. APP with one that is feature parody, even though even if it's a quote, unquote because the current non catalyst message. APP is no great shakes. If you, WANNA real stability. This is something I think we haven't talked about on the show and I haven't heard talked about anywhere really, but like if. If you're like okay. I want this year to be like a stability year where we do refinement and stuff you know the best way to do that. Don't do an arm transition this year. delay. Delay at another year. Have this be a refinement year like you just said like? Oh, no major new features may get new catalysts APPs on the Mac, but in general everything is like it's all stability released, and also no arm transition, and we would all be sad because we've been talking about arm transition all the rumors. We'd I think we'd all be disappointed because we're all getting psyched up for him, but that would sure be. Be a more stable year than all by the way architecture transition so I'm not rooting for that, but we have to put it out there as a possibility again, especially with Ron Virus, and it could be for like uninteresting reasons having to do with manufacturing that really isn't like apples, quote unquote fault, or they just got cold feet and push it out another year like things like this happen all right so I just you know. If you're. Listening to this show before WDC I want you to at least to have some preparation in your mind, like maybe you won't be here and then you'll be pleasantly surprised when it is in, you'll get to enjoy it all the more, but that is definitely a way to make it a stability year. In arm transition, happening this year would actually let most developers treated like a stability year, for for the APP side, and maybe even most developers and apple too because. You know most developers are not writing. Architecture specific code anymore you know those days are long behind us. For most APPS for most developers and arm traditional actually would not require very much work at all. It would be a lot of work for some developers, anybody obviously writing assembly code, and any anybody relying on all the frameworks that you were talking about earlier. There are probably GonNa, be deprecated like open G.. L. Are Probably GonNa be removed, jail. But. For most developers of most APPs, there's not going to be much to do. And, so that actually might kind of enable stability year. For on a lot of different fronts. There's also your dependencies if You don't use a lot of dependencies in your code, but that's not the case for other applications, and so you have to also wait for all your dependencies to be sort of both ported and validated on arm, and you know it's. It's quite a long chain for a long applications, not even entirely under your control. How easy it is to Port I. Don't think it'll be a big deal again. We've gone through it twice. Like develops. We'll get it done, but the bigger the AP. The more potential there is for it to be quite a lot of work in just to get the thing working. And performing well, because the other just because it compiles and runs and doesn't appear to be any bugs. How's the performance? Presumably these new CPA's. We'll have different performance characteristics some some for the better. It's like. Oh, it's much faster than it was before. I didn't have to do anything but sometimes. Depending on how apple optimizes the libraries, our libraries. You're using your optimized, or maybe if you're a big company, you wrote a bunch of stuff yourself. That was tailored for not assembly code, but tailored for what you know to be. The strengths and weaknesses of x eighty six is vector instructions, or whatever could be very different on the arm, or it could be that the arms like to get the best performance. You really have to use this new API that uses the built in neural engine or something because it doesn't have. The generic hardware to do what you wanted. Anyway, it was always more complicated. Hopefully for you know the the pitch for small developers likely you'll be able to wrap and like a day. It'll be up and running and then you shouldn't be big deal that. Companies like Microsoft and Adobe. Changing anything of that and that giant House of cards is always going to be quite. Luckily, they have a lot of money and people so I'm sure to work. John if you had one ricky pick for WDC, what would you pick I? Don't know what you mean by the other refuse to acknowledge gags from other shows. If you had a risky pick that you would like to pick for WDC, it's it's for nothing, but bragging rights will. Like. I think already made mine of predicting. AMBULATION Arm. Let's see I. Haven't I haven't really been keeping up with the room because I've I've been believing the arm transition ones unlike that's more than enough beyond that. I'm I'm with Markelle Moseley. Hoping that there's not anything that I'm not thinking of like my. I would be overjoyed if like bugs got fixed like with existing features I mean. The only thing that I haven't heard remedied. All that would be excited about. That I think is worth doing is improvements at time if you can take advantage of APS but. That's that's it? I I think that will happen eventually, no matter what, but it'd be cool if they made further events this year. Just because but like. Everything else. I just wanted to fix all the bugs and make everything better invested more stable and have a cool arm transition and. All the. Stuff? That'll be cool, too, but it doesn't really affect my life that much, so yeah, that's all I got I got his examination on arm and time machine improvements rapes. Those are pretty good. It's pretty good. I. Hope that if they if they do any kind of significant Mac a features which again. I hope they don't as well. I think if they put a lot of into changing the MAC beyond the arm transition. That might be a failure to read the room. You know what most Mac developers want is stability. You know. The MAC has been suffering in that area for a while, but one thing I would hope for, but the MAC is if they do touch at all if they insist on touching it. I WANNA see some evidence that catalyst can be used to make a good APP. We have yet to really see much of that. Including from Apple's own like people are picking on the the new developer APP being pretty crappy on catalyst. It seems so far. The catalyst still is nearly impossible to use well. Even for Apple. And, so I really hope that we get some kind of progress on that front. If this thing is ever going to be good, we should see. Some progress towards the direction. Like I was I was completely like when the touch bar first came out, it was pretty mediocre, and then nothing ever has changed about his never gotten better. I hope catalyst doesn't follow the same path like if you're gonNa have this thing that came out really crappy early mediocre like. Let's see some movement in the direction of being good. It wouldn't take a lot I. don't think too, but it seems like they're doing almost nothing. So I hope I really really hope that you know Cadillac, version two is better and beyond that I'm hoping the framework level swift you I should get a lot better It's wonderful as a one point. Oh, but it would be a lot. More useful of a lot of a lot of limitations were lifted, and a lot of bugs were fixed and performance issues resolved everything like that. And then on the Wacho aside. I want everything to burn downturn tool for as they not only as I wish for every year, but as they do every couple of years, I. Actually do. This summer I've been using the Apple Watch significantly as I mentioned earlier. It's always shocking to me like how how weird of a platform it still is for APPS. HOW LIMITED IT'S DILLAS! How buggy it's still is even with apple's own built Bilton apps like. Do Does apple US Air Pods with apple watches to play music frequently. Do they know there's tons of bugs with like one ear having the volume set to all the time for some reason until you adjust the volume and it goes back up like. These like weird bugs that you would think they would run into. But anyway The watch os stuff. I'm always going to have a massive oceans. There's always going to need a lot of work so I'm hoping for some big improvements there, but everything else. Please do stability releases. The watch wasn't needed already. There's no expectation. As everyone in favor of cal messages, because I totally am even if it's just as bad as Kern, callous APPs I just want feature parody. It annoys me so much of this things I can only do on my ipad and iphone through messages such as. Like. Do all the screen affects all and be able to see them and little? It's it's not. It doesn't have feature. Parity is just not as good as is not as capable as the irs version and I know if we make, it'll be worse than a bunch of ways than the MAC APP but catalysts will mean in theory. I'm assuming that it would actually have feature parity, and so that way it could go in lockstep with the Iowa's versions of add some feature to messages that will come and both at the same time instead of having this lag or whatever. and honestly messages could be a better APP over all right so I share. Marco's hope that catalysts apps yet, but I think they will was the first year of catalyst. Bad Bad after bad right, but you know you're to. Let's if apple's going to continue to have this thing I'm sure it will improve and I'm hoping that the APPS that they bring in. What was it was the other APP that desperately needs to be ported I. Forget, so we got messages and the other one that ever keeps remembers about the. Was it maps. Catalyst. No it's not anyway that this type of situation, the whole thing catalysts has made for that. There's something on us. That wouldn't be on the MAC at all. Except if there's a way to get it there with you, re using the you I can. That's that's why. One the reasons that callous exists apple itself needs to start doing that before voice memos and a whole bunch of stuff. It's like okay. Yeah, right they. You're right that those wouldn't be on the Mac if you couldn't just reuse the drive westbound Isley. More like a concept message is getting into serious APPS that you care more about Hopefully they never do with male boy that'd be a nightmare. Mail has gone catalyst. It'd be like no. That application. Speaking of messages! Slight Tangent something I really really really want, and it doesn't seem to me like it's impossible, but. I want to have support for. What do you call it a tax? The thumbs up thumbs down. Ha Exclamations Cetera I want to have support for those in mixed format group messages when their when their text messages so. EARNS ENTIRE FAMILIES ON ANDROID phones. We have a couple of group tax with members of her family, and it is not unusual for the iphone users, which is basically Aaron and me and our future sister-in-law, two thumbs up a comment or thumbs down a comment or ha comments, or whatever the case may be, and because it's a group I guess it's not strictly speaking an SMS I. I guess it's group. Imas message what comes out is liked I'll be there soon. You know like the the words liked. I'll be there soon instead of the message that reads I'll be there soon. Having a thumbs up on it and it seems to me case. It says Casey like I'll be there soon. Casey left. That I'll be there soon, right? Isn't that what it says? I don't think it doesn't attribute it. As Casey said I don't think I'm not going to try to look it up now, but one way or another, it's clear that it took the very on message and put the word liked, and then quotations around, and and so you feel like I feel like this is a solvable problem with computers today that we could look back at prior messages. If anything matches verbatim and see. Maybe we should just throw a topic on there if you're if you're an ice or Mac, os person I really wish that worked. That would be very very nice, because it's very very annoying, but this is the thing like. For All of the incredible things, apple does in general and as much as we poop all over them, you know apple software developer seemed to be a pretty smart, pretty talented group, but I think one of. To my is one of apple's bigger bigger problems from software development. Point of view is how unbelievably myopic they are. You know in the quintessential example of this was how great apple maps has always been in the bay area, but it's been utter garbage full was utter garbage for the longest time everywhere else and hey, guess what if everyone is working in the bay area that works on Apple maps. It's GonNa be great there and it's going to be garbage everywhere else in so one thing I hope that comes from this God. Awful pandemic is if apple were to. You know somehow actually start to acknowledge. Acknowledge that. There are other parts of the country that exist in. Hey, people might wanna live there, then maybe things like that will get better, and so this relates to my messages complaint because I would bet that most of these apple engineers just don't really exchange text messages with android people that often I mean. Why else would this not be affixed problem already, and it's just that sort of thing. Just really chaps, my hindquarters, when when it's so it's something that's a real bugbear to me with apple software, but because it's just barely off the happy path I suspect that nobody at apple's ever seen it. I think tons of apple. People have mixed conversations when people don't have phones I. Mean It's the same reason you do. They may work rebel, but it doesn't automatically mean their entire family works for Apple. I I understand that constraint like your idea of like. Oh if you see made a message with the word liked in front of it, but that obviously doesn't work. If what if someone legitimate types them as just like that and like. Where am I message go? Go Oh. It turned into a thumb because you happen to. This is like you're limited by the SMS network, right? It has very limited bandwidth. You don't WanNa. Put in line stuff near that comes out of garbage, non iphone so I understand the problem and obviously apple solutions that ever to have iphones, but in the meantime like in the meantime you Casey can solve this problem by typing different things. Use Your words Casey. Don't just communicate with a little thumb.

Apple Mac intel US Marco John Lewis Max Max developer Margot rowing Desa Times Microsoft T Kens Amazon
The North Face vs Patagonia - Patagucci | 3

Business Wars

30:23 min | 7 months ago

The North Face vs Patagonia - Patagucci | 3

"It's nineteen seventy six and Melinda. She is walking through the corridors of the massive California Merchandise Textile Market Angeles's fashion district. She dips in an out of fabric mill showrooms. She's hunting for a rare polyester fabric this both insulating and water assistant. It's called Pile Fleece Melinda's husband Yvonne Patagonia's founder as heard that North Atlantic fishermen wear pile flea sweaters and he reckons rock climbers. Go crazy for them too. But I got to find a supplier and so far Melendez search is coming up empty handed. She turns a corner and spots the showroom for Malden Mills. She heads inside and approaches salesman. Hi I'm after pile fleece do you supply? The salesman raises an eyebrow. That's an unusual request. But Yeah we do. I think there's some samples out back. Give me a minute. I'll be right back. The salesman returns carrying two rolls of fabric arms ones in other tan color. The other off pudding powder blue the salesman places. The roles on the counter. Here you go so you're in the toilet seat business. Melinda gives the salesman a confused. Look what no we're GONNA make a sweater out of it ma'am. This fabric is normally used for toilet. Seat covers it might feel soft and fluffy but it's a pretty stiff fabric. I doubt you'd WANNA wear it. Are you sure it's pile? Fleece you want. Yes I'm sure. We made mountaineering close. Our customers value functionality. That said these colors are hideous. Those are the only colors we have in stock. But if you place a large enough order we can make it in all kinds of colors size. Patagonia's living hand to mouth placing big orders out of the question. Okay never mind. This will do. The search is over. Patagonia's found the material for its pile flea sweaters. Now it has to convince people to look past the stiff fabrics ugly colors and start wearing it and the Patagonia team knows everything is riding on this. Make or break gamble support for business. Wars comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by quicken loans. Home today is so much more than it was yesterday but at rocket mortgage home is still all about you during these challenging times. We're all experiencing the top priority at rocket mortgage is a health and safety of the communities they serve and while things are changing quickly everyday one thing that will never change is their team's commitment to giving you the best mortgage experience possible that's why if you need mortgage support. Their team of experts. Is there to answer questions and offer solutions? They understand that hardships happen. And they're here to help whether that means working with you to save money on your mortgage or finding a new way to navigate payments if you have questions. The team at rocket mortgage has answers. They know how important your home is to you because you are important to them if you need mortgage assistance. The home loan experts at rocket mortgage are available to help twenty four hours a day seven days a week from their home to yours. The team at rocket mortgage is with you visit rocket mortgage dot com slash business wars to learn more call for cost information and conditions equal housing lender licensed in all fifty states in MLS consumeraccess dot org number thirty thirty from wondering. I'm David Brown. And this is business awards on the last episode. Hap- club took the north face to the top of the outdoor industry by focusing on making high quality gear back with a lifetime guarantee but while the North Bay surged ahead on narves clothing business. Patagonia burned through its cash producing thousands of defective rugby shirts now. Patagonia survival depends on convincing. America's hikers and climbers to wear sweaters made out of the same material that covers their toilet seats. This is episode three Paddock Gucci. It's February nineteen seventy seven and the national sporting goods convention is underway in. Chicago's McCormack place. The places pack tens of thousands of retail buyers roam the exhibition hall seeking the next big product and this year synthetic fabrics. The hot new thing in outdoor wear last year seattle-based Company early winners became the first company to make outerwear made with a new fabric called GORTEX. Now the whole industry is betting on this waterproof breathable fabric including the North Face. Which is about to introduce its first. Gortex PARKAS but over at Patagonia booth. There's no GORTEX insight. Instead the company is pushing its new pile sweaters one curious store buyer picks up a powder blue fleece and feels the soft fluffy fabric Patagonia sales. Chief text boissier wanders over. I see spotted our new pile fleas yet. It's unusual berry soft. What kind of for is it for. Thinks it's for Boissier can't resist this. He keeps a straight face is made from rare Siberian Blue Poodle. For man the buyer drops the pile flees in horror. Her mouth forming a perfect. Oh sorry Ma'am I was just kidding. It's a synthetic fabric one hundred percent polyester. You wear this under a waterproof. Shell like our phone back rain jacket and you'll be warm and dry even in the wettest conditions. It's lighter than wool and dries in minutes reassured the buyer places in order. And she's not the only one despite the unlovable colors the pile. Fleece is proving a hit with retailers. They're betting people will go for a garment that makes mountaineering a warmer and drier experience. And they're not wrong with the next few months hikers climbers and backpackers abandoned their old wool. Sweaters Don Pyle fleeces Patagonia pile fleeces become an outdoor staple pulling the company out of the red pen back into the black by nineteen seventy-nine Patagonia sales surged by fifty percent competitors quickly flood the market with copycat garments to stay ahead of the pack. Patagonia doubles down on using synthetic fabrics in new ways it partners with malden mills to create bunting a new pile. Fleece that pills less it also repurposes. The polypropylene fibre used in disposable diapers to create fast drying long underwear for mountaineers and outdoor fans. Embrace it fast. The extra warrant is so appealing that not even polypropylenes habit of retaining body odor. Puts THEM OFF SOON? The mountains are full of people wearing synthetics. Instead of wool and cotton gortex shells bunting fleeces and polypropylene underwear or now the first choice of hikers and climbers everywhere and then Patagonia ushers in color revolution in outdoor apparel a rainbow explosion replaces the muted grays and Greens that once dominated its catalogue and Patagonia customers. Stand out like vivid flowers on the mountains. They're wearing colors like brench red. Mango and Magenta options that tap right into the eighties love of bright neon color actions soon fashion-conscious urbanites as well as backpacker are zipping. Up Patagonia fleeces just a few years ago. Patagonia was skirting the edge of insolvency. Now it's flush delivering annual sales of twenty million dollars. In contrast the north face is struggling to maintain its sent the backpacking of the seventies at once. Bullied it's growth has fizzled out and cheaper imports. From Asia are undercutting the north faces American made garments but to employees in the north face. Reckon they have the solution if only CEO HAP KLOPP would listen? It's one thousand. Nine hundred and in Berkeley California north face sales executives in downhill ski fanatics John Q. Schnur and bill whirlwind trying to win KLOPP over. We'll impresses the case Downhill Ski Wears Market. Ready for the taking. Its crying out. Force clout shakes his head. No way no way. The North faces about making the very best functional equipment. All downhill skiers care about a fashion. They just WanNa look good. It's not what we're about our close cell. Because they're functional looking. Good is merely a bonus the two employees glance at each other unlike KLOPP. They're both downhill skiers and they're convinced he's wrong here. Schnur tries a different approach. Hap- you've heard of Theodore Levitt right. The Harvard Business Theorist Yeah. How right he says one reason. The railroads went bust is that they fail to see the bigger picture. They thought they were in the railroad business when in fact they were in the transportation business. It's the same with US happen. We can do more than backpacking and hiking. Wieland presses the attack home right now. The outdoor industry is leading. Skiers like us. Now everyone's selling fashion but serious gears want quality technical gear to we could call it extreme gear you know make it plain that are closer designed for the most extreme conditions. Klopp leans back into his chair. I get what you're saying and I've still got some reservations but you've convinced me. It's worth the risk. Let's try it. Advanced skiers instantly see the appeal of extreme years insulated gortex outer shells with your two ways. Zippers for Ventilation. And articulated hoods within months extreme gear establishes the north face as America's leading maker of technical skiwear but breaking into the downhill. Ski Market is only one way that the north face is trying to drum up growth. It's also looking overseas and it's got Europe in incites in April nineteen eighty three. The North face makes its first advance across the Atlantic by buying out a Scottish outdoor. Wear factory and that gets the attention of Patagonia. It's April nineteen eighty-three and HAP. Klopp is giving Patagonia savant. A tour of the north faces new offices in Berkeley California over here. Our marketing teams. We divide them into categories. These are backpacking guys just behind them. That's the new skiwear team clout notices yard looking up at the Sky Lights. Oh yeah I figured that. Since we're outdoors company. We should bring the outside in tall windows for Natural Light Skylights. Let in fresh air. This is the kind of thing you wanted to see a yeah. We're looking for ideas of how to develop our campus. In Ventura. The North Face Patagonia might be rivals but there are more like competitive siblings than enemies. They both respect each other's products and share a belief that success comes from growing the size of the industry rather than fighting tooth and nail over the existing and at twice the size of Patagonia. The North face is the big brother sharing tips with its smaller sibling. And that's why she narves thinking of an alliance. So how are things going with the factory and Scott? It's exciting but you know we've got excess capacity there at the moment. Maybe we can help you get into Europe interesting interesting. Well it would definitely be quicker than building it up ourselves. How anywhere and don't know. Maybe we manufacture your apparel under license in Scotland. Where do you think maybe you send US stuff straight from Hong Kong and we distributed? Well Hell let me think it over the casual talk about North Face Patagonia alliance. That doesn't go any further instead. Patagonia recruits European partners to distribute its chinese-made close across the continent but she nods about to spot and opportunities elsewhere. That will stretch Patagonia to the limit. It's early Nineteen eighty-four and Yvonne Cunard is roaming the exhibition floor of the national sporting goods convention in Chicago. He spots a small crowd gathering around the standard fabric giant milliken and wonders over at the stand a milk employees ease holding up a polyester. American Football Jersey covered in grass stains. Ladies and gentlemen. This Jersey here is made f