20 Episode results for "Mcculloch"

Emoji Around the World (w/ Gretchen McCulloch) and Plants May Have a Sense of Sight

Curiosity Daily

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Emoji Around the World (w/ Gretchen McCulloch) and Plants May Have a Sense of Sight

"Hi we're here from curiosity DOT COM help you get smarter in just a few minutes. I'm cody golf and I'm Ashley Hamer Today. You learn about how some plants may have a sense of sight eight. You'll also learn about how Emoji reflect cultural differences around the world in the final edition of our Hashtag Tuesday's miniseries with Internet linguist Gretchen McCulloch raised raise tens live satisfy some curiosity recent scientific research has shown that plants are way more complex than we give them credit for plants communicate through the air and through their root structures and even show a plant version of cognition and evidence is suggesting that plants may have the gift of sight before we share this mind-bending evidence. We should backup backup. This isn't really anything. New We back in Nineteen O seven Francis Darwin the son of the One and only Charles Darwin argued the same thing he he theorized that plant leaves have organs made up of Lens like cells and light sensitive cells organs now called Selai. You can see US ally sometimes times called simple is in some arthropods and in jellyfish and Sea Stars Darwin's theory was all but forgotten until recently when a new wave of something called plant plant neurobiology started gaining steam in a November twenty sixteen issue of trends in plant science science laid out the case for plants having something akin to an eye hi exhibit A. Earlier in two thousand sixteen researchers discovered that an ancient species of cyanobacteria actually act like tiny lenses in what is they he said probably the world's smallest and oldest example of a camera. I it's reasonable to assume that other organisms like plants probably due to exhibit B according to Scientific American is that some plants make proteins involved in the development and functioning of icy spots those are the super basic is found in some a single celled organisms like green algae and then there's the mind bending fact that the climbing vine Boquila try folio Lada can change its leaves to look like those of the plant it's climbing. We don't know that it uses vision to achieve this but it's definitely a possibility looks like talking to plants is just the beginning there's definitely a lot more more going on in those leaves and roots than we previously thought and that's not even mention the end right I mean they have whole faces so many senses like what do they have site sure we we established that talk. We gotta go over the Census Coney. Today's episode is sponsored hazard. Purple Mattress. Sleep is important. The quality of your sleep affects the quality of your daily life and if you're struggling to get a good night's sleep then you've got to try a purple mattress. It'll we'll probably feel different than anything you've ever experienced because it uses a brand new material that was developed by an actual rocket scientist so it feels unique because it's both firm and soft at the same time. It's not like the memory foam you're probably used to the purple mattress keeps everything supported while still feeling really comfortable plus. It's beatable so it sleeps cool when new order you'll get one hundred nights risk free trial. If you're not fully satisfied you can return your matches for a full refund. It's also backed by a ten year warranty with free shipping and returns. You're you're going to love purple and right now curiosity daily listeners. We'll get a free purple pillow purchase of a mattress. That's on top of all the great free gifts. They're offering site-wide just text curious to eighty four eight the only way to get this free pillow is text curious to eighty four eight that C. U. R. I O. U. S. Two eight four eight eight eight message and data rates may apply. There's a component of online language that plays a uniquely massive role in how we communicate and that thing is his emoji or emoticons. Would you believe there are major cultural differences that shape how different EMOJI are used and interpreted around the world. We're we're about to get into the details. In the final edition of our Hashtag Tuesday's miniseries our guest is Internet linguist Gretchen McCulloch author of the new book because Internet understanding the new rules of language specifically. She's going to get into the difference in emoticons and emojis between America and Japan but maybe I should talk about the difference between a motorcycle and Emoji which I did not know and it was like Ashley. What's the difference and you instantly told me so? emoticons are just basically the text based happy faces and sad faces like with the colon and the parentheses and Emoji are the little cartoon images that require a special character took create a special keyboard and mobile providers have different interpretations of them and things like that totally well. I found that fascinating and I love that you just instantly knew it. I don't know why it didn't and there's actually a popular Japanese emoji style with its own name called cowgill. Kao Cow it comes from the combination of two words in Japanese Kanji Banji cow as in face and Moji as in character so why are Itogi and cow Mogae so different here's Gretchen emoticons John's or cartoon faces broadly speaking in the western English speaking world temp to emphasize the mouth as the place of primary very emotional meaning you have a smile with the most curved upward and a frown with her down and so on and so forth and this is what shows the stylized cartoons and the stylized patients nations are comic strips and also in our emoticons because you have things like Colin parenthesis and the parenthesis what's doing the emotional meaning there have open impresses versus close parenthesis. You're going to different emotional meaning. It's the same colon the either the same shape conversely in in Japanese in anime in general all the emotional load is carried by the is more than the mouth and visit again stylized faces right so in animated drawings there the the character is do all these exaggerated things to commit emotions and their mouths can stay pretty much the same and then the same thing happens in bear text face emoticons so comedy which can use full carat little pointy hat carrot underscore carrot is hardly the eiser happy versus capital T. underscore score capital. T. is sad because the base of the tea is like the tears streaming down from the closed is and so it's you know both stylized things are using punctuation resources the keyboard resources but they're emphasizing different parts of the face and this is responsible for some of the confusion in Emoji some of them have mouths mouths and is that seem to be contradicting each other and so- English speaking users tend to use them for their mouth value and not for the semiotics value of there is he's one of the classic example of this was apple's grimacing face smiling is so it has the the pointed is that indicate that it's happy but it hasn't been sort of a loss in shape with teeth barred which indicate this grimace and so it was originally encoded in Japanese be this sort of smiling mm face because the either smiling but American users were using it to indicate grimacing except other platforms didn't look grimacing and so there was a lot of confusion they are until eventually got redesigned you might think is a small detail to focus on a mouth or focus on is but a scientific study actually showed how deep this cultural difference goes. There's a psycholinguistics linguistics study looking at the Japanese speakers in English speakers like faces with various parts of the Mass Dow so they'd have like fuzzy over. Were you know like radio static various parts of the faces and they found that the English speakers look more towards the mouth when the mount was fuzzed out they had a hard time reading the emotions uh-huh look more towards the is in with a refund. They had a more difficult time so there were there are some issues to be where people look towards. I don't think it's that our faces look super different emotional allies but I think we we X. Certain things that are culturally associated with particular emotions so what purpose in general do emoji serve. I know that some people try to shoehorn you hear them into being a language but they're not exactly that what what is kind of their analog in spoken language I like to think of Emoji as gesture because they do a lot of the same communicate of things that gesture does when it comes to their relationship with the words that we say so you can often use a gesture or an Emoji to highlight or to undermine something that you're saying if you something like good job with a thumbs up then that's positive that's great. You're reinforcing good job but if you say good job with the middle finger now you're undermining and you're being sarcastic or you're being acquainted or something like that and you can out these additional sorts of meanings with either a gesture toward emoji that provide more clarity for what your actual intentions ads are so you can use a motor cars to essentially gesture online but how do you avoid being misinterpreted when you talk to someone from a different culture Gretchen told us when in doubt use a full body Emoji or a motive con like a shrugging face or one of my personal favorites the table flip a motive con. I believe the shrugging being face has a name and it's called the Shruti. Wow really yeah anyway you can learn even more tips and fun facts in Gretchen McCulloch new book because Internet understanding the new rules of language you can find links to that and more from Gretchen in today's show notes and now let's recap what we learned today today. We learned that some plants may have a sense of sight. I'm never GONNA change my clothes in front of my golden those ever again. That's probably a good call and that western Emoji focused on the mouth while Japanese Emoji or Kalomo g focused on on the is. I feel like that explains so much that's why people to didn't security daily and

Gretchen McCulloch Emoji Emoji Ashley Hamer Francis Darwin Charles Darwin US Census Coney scientist Selai O. U. S. apple Japan America Moji Colin John
International Internet Languages (w/ Gretchen McCulloch), Chances of Rain, and Mars in Spain

Curiosity Daily

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

International Internet Languages (w/ Gretchen McCulloch), Chances of Rain, and Mars in Spain

"<music> hi curiosity dot com to help. You get smarter in just a few minutes. I'm cody gov and i'm ashley hamer today. Learn about how you can go on a simulated mission to mars. I it's spain and what the weather forecast really means when it says there's a chance of rain you'll also learn about how people around the world talk differently online with internet linguist gretchen mcculloch hawaii. Let satisfy some curiosity you can go on a simulated mission to mars in spain and sure it's not a real martian adventure but it is something that astronauts do to get ready for space and considering your chances of jumping on a rocket to the red planet in the next few years is kinda slim. You may want consider. This is the next best thing it's called the life on mars experience and its location is about as remote as possible without leaving earth at a place called aries station in the spanish region of brea. That's due north of madrid rate on the country's north coast and you can apply right now on tripadvisor experiences for a fee of roughly sixty eight hundred u._s. dollars and we should say this is not a sponsor to add. We thought this was really cool and we wanted to share it. Who doesn't love mars us. Participants will get to live in a cave. That's one mile or about one point two kilometers long with ceilings that are two hundred feet or about sixty meters high not only will oh you be living underground but you also be isolated from other human contact just like a real space crew and there you will stay for a full thirty days some not so bad to be honest. I would totally do it if i had the money to. Make sure you're fully okay before. During the mission each team member will be supported by a medical. The team and the entire crew will undergo three days of training including emergency plans in case. Something bad happens on site. This is true astronaut stuff since the european opean space agency runs similar isolation exercises. That's because it's important to make sure that crew members can work together for long periods of time like the six months or so that that the average person spends on the international space station tripadvisor experiences said this in a statement quote the idea is to learn more about not just the physical title but the societal impact living in such a colony would have candidates have to apply for their position on the expedition ends pass physical and psychological tests before they're accepted did special equipment has to be worn and no contact is allowed with the outside world unquote. So what are you waiting for ready to pack your bags. Let's say you turn on your local weather forecast and it says there's a sixty percent chance of rain. Do you know what that actually means because it turns out that the phrase chance of rain is a much more complicated concept than you might think. The chance of rain is also known as the probability of precipitation or p._o._p. And it's based on a mathematical with medical formula that takes a weather forecasters confidence into account that mathematical formula goes like this p._o._p. Equals coverage multiplied by confidence. It's here's how this looks in practice. Let's say a forecaster is one hundred percent confident that forty percent of a given area will see measurable rain one hundred percent sent times forty equals forty percent so there's a forty percent chance of rain of course one hundred percents confidence almost never happens in science so the formula is usually usually more complicated so what if a forecaster is fifty percent sure that rain will happen and expects that if it does occur eighty percent of the area. We'll get that rain. Fifty fifty percent of eighty percent is forty percent so the p._o._p. Is forty percent this might sound complicated and that's because whether deals in probabilities and probabilities often been required complicated math the good news is that the average person doesn't need to get out a pencil and paper every time they read the forecast according to the national weather service. If you see a forty percent chance of rain quote there is a forty percent chance that rain will occur at any given point in the area unquote not that it will definitely rain across forty percent sent the area. Just maybe bring an umbrella hope. You don't get rained on. Today's episode is sponsored by bath fitter thinking of updating your bath. Make your first call to a bath fitter for over thirty. Five years. Bath fitter has been installing beautiful luxury tubs in as little as one day. That's right just one day. There's no demo no mess s. and no stress bath fitter will custom make your newbath. If it perfectly over the old one using the same premium materials used in luxury hotels. They're unique one apiece seamless wall system ensures of water tight fit so it's easy to clean and care for thousands of options to choose from you can custom design a bath. You'll love and it's guaranteed for as as long as you own your own home with bath fitter master the reynaud and skip the demo bathfitternw trained team of experts will handle every aspect of your bathroom installation from start to finish guiding you every step along the way so get started today. Visit bathfitternw dot com to book your free in-home consultation and join over two million satisfied customers <music>. The internet is one giant community with no borders so when it comes to using language online who's writing the rules. That's what we asked our guest for today's edition of our hashtag tuesday's miniseries gretchen mcculloch ick. She's an internet linguist and author of the new book because internet understanding the new rules of language last week she told us about how people from different generations of internet users speak online and this week we'll get into the differences across different geographic regions agents are trends mostly coming out of america or the united kingdom or other english speaking parts of the world gretchen told this there's not a ton of specific research into this area area but there are definitely some trends worth noting. There are some things that seem to be broader trends that are if not completely internationalise multinational channel. There are some things that seemed to be in particular areas so a few examples of this are the u._k. And australia but not so much the u._s. and canada have descendancy to use news x acts at the end of like their text messages and it comes from s._o._x. Meaning hugs and kisses but that's not what it means like you will use even very busy context and it just means. I don't hate you. That's it's all it means like this is not hostile and if you don't put the ex- ex- it's like you're being passive aggressive. You hate someone. It's hostile and that's a you know even in english speaking countries. That's a u._k. Thing it's invest as well but it's not found in the u._s. Canada conversely. You've got some other stuff. That's multinational. That's not quite in most of the english speaking world so for example many places that use an alphabetic script so english is an alphabet other places now accept us a repeated letter convey emphasis or to convey like elongation of a word she can be like yay with lots of wise and other countries do this as well french does it is you know santa's at these kinds of do things but in a bunch of companies in southeast asia so in chinese japanese korean but even some the experts like tagalog and filipino instead of abusing the repeated letter day use a tilda or swung dash this weighty thing to convey this repetition at the end of the word so instead of writing why why why why they'd right why till the children's will do and that can make up and so this has been put into english with an association nation with manga and anime and this sort of culture around japanese cultural exports but in countries that actually use it on a regular basis. It's just how you elongate a letter for dramatic emphasis so there are some national differences and linguistic differences between different areas. I'd love to see more research on this. Though so there's a chance chance you could actually infer something about a person's background just from the way they write that they're excited about something pretty cool stuff and you can learn about even more tells in gretchen michael ix new book because internet understanding the new rules of language you can find a link to that and more from gretchen in today's show notes and next week we'll wrap up our hashtag tuesday's mini series by tackling some internet language trends from non english speaking countries along with something. That's a pretty major part of internet language emoji and now. Let's recap what we learned today day. Today we learned that you can join a simulated mission to mars in an isolated part of spain for about seven thousand bucks. Hey it's still cheaper than actually going to mars and that a chance of rain refers to the chance that rain will happen at any given point in an area and that if you see an excess at the end of your text messages or e mails it just means the person sending it. It doesn't hit you not that they're sending kisses hugs. Oh oser kisses yup weird now that i have emoji don't really need and that's old stuff. Oh sure i guess i'm old school then. I still throw them in once in a while. Oh not in business emails though right. I've never gotten this from you. Uh-huh yeah i even i know the appropriate time. Please join us again tomorrow to learn something new in just a few minutes. I'm cody goff and i'm i'm ashleigh hamer. Stay curious on the westwood one podcast network.

gretchen mcculloch gretchen spain forecaster aries station cody gov brea ashley hamer gretchen michael cody goff spain westwood one Canada ashleigh hamer australia united kingdom asia america santa
Episode 41T __github profile

voiceFirst careers

06:30 min | 5 months ago

Episode 41T __github profile

"Yes, indeed it is another day. It's another great day if you let it. Hey, this is your host Jeff. Ski Kinsey I'm also the founder of voice first careers as also the website voice I dot careers. Hey and by the way this is episode Forty One T. as in tango or talent. Actually this episode is directed at. Those. Talented individuals that create. Pure Art. With their software. pocking particularly to Java script node s python developers. That's the sweet spot for voice first careers. As a great way to build Alexa skills. And, with Java, script for the bixby capsules sow cool. So. What's new in the world of hiring a lot? We've actually branded are hiring model. We call it the then the and the VIN hiring model. In, its driven in part by then diagrams cool that. So. Do check out our website. Voice I I- careers. We've got a blog up there. We've got. Were building a catalog of offerings and four talent. There's something we call talent appreciation. If you WANNA be appreciated then you have to value yourself I. Mean That's Comics Incense Right. years ago I had a colleague, and he told me about leaving the banking industry going into the tech field. And he said the thing that. The placement firm. He was working with todd him. Is He never talk about price? He never talk about money. It's just a given. Once! You're locked in locked and loaded on a position then they'll come up with the money to get you the you need. This quick! Quick Reminder we do not want your resume. We do not want your email address. Toast two things are relic relics of an era gone by. Thank goodness. I remember. This is my fourth project. My Fourth Platform I've on the second one I've actually engineered in the voice I or I'm sorry, hinder recruiting workforce procurement space. In. What I learned in two, thousand, nine, a put together team. We built this amazing job board. It was just killing everything else in sight. It was producing ten x the results of any other board with one hand the spam and we had some plans underway if we would have got funded to eliminate the spam all together. But. We were still relying on resumes and emails back in two thousand nine. That is so over. Look. The only reason somebody wants. Your resume is to figure out a way not to call you. The only reason your email address is a figure out a way. How Ghost you? Okay, yeah, that's a bit harsh and may be overstated, but only slightly. So the bottom line is if you're talent, you need to reach out the best way to do that is pick up your mobile phone dial pound. Two Five, zero at the prompt say three magic words contact ski man. A pound to fifty contact scheme in. which through my voice mail it let me collect your mobile number so I can follow up with you. and. Let me know. How I can help. I've got a brief survey for you to take psych and learn a little bit about you, and then we're GonNa have an old fashioned phone call. We're GONNA. Talk on the phone. We might even do a video conference. You know that's that's okay. That's not important. The phone call is. In your linked in profile. And especially for developers. Now this. Get hub or something similar. Something that shows off your ability to do what you say. One of the reasons we don't want to resume is what they call the mommy gap. or Parental gap. Could be a lotteries that you have gaps in your resume and again. HR departments are using a T. S.'s applicant tracking systems to prevent you. From. Getting a call from getting from making it through their funnel. To actually have to reach out to you. That is so wrong. I understand why it happened I was a big proponent of ats is when they first came on the scene because they showed such promise. And then the evil cap burts of the world as delegates as. Perverted them. In? Fact I wrote about it in my book. Purple Curve Affect. fact out colluded a link, so you can get a copy of my book for Free PDF of the book plus the Audio of a cable TV, interview I did with a good friend of Mine Ed McCulloch when when my book launched back in April two thousand four. Wow, that's why it's out of print. I've been working on a second well. There's actually a second edition been working on a third. Bottom. LINE IS REACH OUT! And? If you're not a good fit, if you're not in software development, if you're not into Java script, no GS and Python, I might still be able to help. If you're willing to buy me a cup of coffee, I'll give you some insight or the next thirty days to help again. Number people working within this arena. That are not a good fit for what we do, but yet I want you to be able to take advantage of my insights of over thirty plus years in and out of the recruiting space of hired hundreds of employees only ever had to fire three of them. I've helped businesses, large and small permanent temp. Higher Gigs. Side hustles. staffing. Temp you name it and they're dot net so hey. Include some notes. In the show notes. But remember it's going to be just about as great a day as you make up your mind to make it, so join me in the voice, first careers team and make it a great one.

Ed McCulloch founder Jeff VIN todd ats T. S. thirty days one hand
Unpaid Caregivers and Compassion Fatigue, with Nancy Philpott

Reinvention Radio

12:59 min | 1 year ago

Unpaid Caregivers and Compassion Fatigue, with Nancy Philpott

"To me information and entertainment on demand. Rady come. And now back to reinvention radio Hughes your host Steve older already. Welcome to the new media minute here on read in then Shen radio Stephen hanging out with Ritchey. Okay. What's radio? Tay. How's it going? Good way. It's got under control in the studio is back. Hi, mary. Hi, good to see Kelly's got an drug headquarters, and we're joined in-studio by Nancy Philp, which is awesome. Hi, nancy. Hey there. How are you? Nice. And closer that might get in on it by it. There we go end, so Nancy's awesome. Having you here you're in from Austin, Texas from Austin, Texas. It is so beautiful here. I love San Diego. Yeah. Most of the time it is. It's been a little cloudy rainy side Opio catch a good string. Just. Yes. It was. No, I know you get really really spoiled here. So we don't have a lot of times. I really want to jump into just well first, let's talk about you. So we met at the new media summit. Yes. And that was awesome. And so had a really we'll talk about that a minute. But I want to make sure that people aren't understanding of your story as best we can cover here in a limited amount of time. But but share with us what you're up to now. Specifically, I help healthcare professionals and caregivers reduce secondary traumatic stress in compassion fatigue. Because there's lots of people who are feeling ASA lated, helping mom and dad die in the dying process and overworked overwhelmed don't have support feeling mass elated. To me. And and so on the had to make it turn around. Yeah. And you share you think you shared a startling statistic. Around the number of people are percentage of people who end up being care. What was it was? I can't remember all the top of my head. Do you? Remember, something about caregiving and being involuntary like paid carry. That's what that's what you said is the four hundred seventy billion dollar industry, which means there are thirty four million primarily women giving care to family members. Unpaid must have more fulltime must've Amar juggling lots of different things and trying to make it all work. So when you say that stat of the amount of money, you're saying that's the equivalent of what they should be getting if we paid them twelve dollars an hour twelve dollars dollars an hour. That's what the value that would generate. Well, it's insane. And so from your experience having been through. And then helping others go through it as well. Are there a couple of of tips that you can offer to folks who may be in the midst of this kind of keep their sanity and not experienced compassionate fatigue. Absolutely. So for women. We are. We don't ask for help. Very well. We are givers, and we and giving give to everybody and we don't ask for help. The thing that I tell everybody is you have to change your minds that you're not alone. You ask for help. You get into a community you ask for resources and ask for help. That's the primary thing. Yeah. Yeah. And so. I mean, one hundred percent of our parents die one hundred percent of our pants, right? I mean, like, there's no that's that's just a fact, and so knows final years how how can people who are going through that with their parents? I mean, I was soon we're talking about in this case. We'll just talk about the unpaid caregivers. Take him pair some or it could be anybody else. I guess for that matter to could even child God forbid or spouse, and so and so forth, but you know, to that into how how can we optimize maximize those final, especially when you know that the end is within a year, maybe or somebody like, you know, it's coming. How can we really optimize maximize that time together? The thing that I think is a gift for caregivers is to talk about stuff. You know, it's going to be over. And so don't leave anything on the on the table talk about the things talk about eleven. You forgive them. It's that kind of stuff that's not being said, and and then just open your heart and connect with them. And that's what you can give you can give your presence. You can give your love. You can ask for help. And there's lots of research that indicates that you can your stress as a caregiver is passed onto them their stresses passed onto you. So you have to be very open loving and push that love in appreciation, and and forgiveness, and they feel that in accept that. And it changes how they pass. Yeah. Where they're going. Yeah. So so you had a chance to join us at the new media summit fabulous thing ever in Tampa. And I know you were able to share a lot of that message, of course, from the microphone with everyone listening. But then I'm sure in private conversations as well. So just share with everyone. What was? Your experience of the new media summit in general. I've been the lots of different events. It was the best of it. You said you actually work for Tony Robins at one point. I was. Yeah. Coach for Tony Robbins. And I. Mm been to lots of events the people at the new media summit. You know lead from the top lead from the top. And the people there were the most authentic compassionate loving, caring people business people and healers it was a variety of different people in the audience. I've never felt so connected with the tribe when I walked away. I was it was amazing. And and you because of you, Steve I think because he because of Mary because rich everybody there the icons of influence that were there were just generous spirit caring loving at. There weren't any egos. I didn't see any at that. They will there weren't any. It was amazing. What was the main takeaway for you coming out of the summit or something that you'll implemented? Insofar as businesses concerns we take away or the main strategy or something that you'll implement their. Yeah. Here was something that was amazing to me compassion fatigue. Right. Nurse. What I realized that my home. It was I have to ask for help. Funny. When that funny. Yeah. I was sitting there when you were talking about entrepreneurs, and we don't ask for it. We do it all baba anyway. Oh my God. Hello, the lightbulb goes, I've Nancy's head compassion fatigue. Taking care of what about asking for help. He's got some resources here. You don't have to do it. All. Yeah. Like you. What did you ask for help on? Or what did you end up doing? I'm gonna do the today of the intensive. Yeah. Launcher podcast intensive absolutely. Yeah. Mine's? We'll have the pros help you and get it done in days. Yeah. And that's what we that's what we try to do is just, you know, take it to in whatever capacity decide to work with us. We do to the top of the of the game if we can. And of course, that's what we aim to do every time. You have so many products that people can get involved. Were there fit is perfect. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Absolute or using well, and the other thing I mean, one of the great things at the new video. Giveaway things you have all these things you get to do. And I got to do a one half a day. You did you business with you? I'm really thrilled about that. Awesome. I'm so looking forward to that. So somebody's thinking about coming to the new media summit. What what would you tell them if they're kind of on the fence, or maybe they just don't know what to believe? What what would you tell folks? This is your first time there. It's the best thing you need to invest in yourself number one, you need to invest in this place with these people because you're going to get the help you need. It's real it's the people they're real. And they'll make a difference in your life might a difference in mind. Yeah. How about bookings? Did you get a chance to fifteen grace excited? Yeah. And that's just that's in the immediate rights. Who knows what the long tail will be around all of that. But you got booked on fifteen shows, right? And lots of opportunities to do networking with other people who don't have their podcast yet. But they're planning on doing podcasts. So it's like multiple levels of. Awesomeness awesomeness. Yeah. For sure. Yes. So if people want to give more information than Nancy about you in the work that you do with the caregivers the unpaid caregivers and the compassion fatigue and all the fun stuff that you do there. What what should they do? How can they connect with you? They're going to go to heart sink, S H, E A R T S NC wellness dot com. Sink wase click on the compassionate care link. All right. We'll give you the last opportunity here to close out any final thoughts either about compassion fatigue. Or as far as the new media summit will let you just a final thought if you're an entrepreneur listening to this. If you're a caregiver listening to this asks for help ask for the new media summit team to help you commie text may heart sink, wellness dot com. There you go with compassion fatigue. All right. Nancy awesome. So looking forward or half the day together and hanging out and really join us at the new media summit from Riccione say, I'm Steve we're talking next time. Take care. You just got dismantle thanks for listening to reinvention radio. For more information about the show and your host, Stephen visit reinvention radio dot com. Inching coaches authors. Speakers and business, please pay close attention to while. I'm about to say if you want to secure massive visibility fast and generate thousands of highly qualified leads without spending a dime on advertising. Marketing the easiest way to make this happen is to appear as a guest on the world's most popular podcast. We recently came across an awesome resource that provides detailed contact information for two hundred forty new media influencers were looking for. Yes. Just like you. It's called the ultimate directory. And for a limited time, you can get the preview edition of the directory absolutely free. That's right for free. It's time for you to get the visibility you and your business deserve and connect with the world's leading icons of influence who can make you famous with the push of about your free preview. Dishing of the ultimate directory right now at triple W my ultimate directory dot com. That in mind open it directly dot com. Died of presentations with no impacts, no inspiration. And no traction to dull speakers have you and your team disengaged distracted by smartphones. Christopher McCulloch Franks energy insights and two decades of experience delivered with punch humor and heart. Your team will leave energized uplifted and with a sense of purpose. Visit Christopher McCulloch dot com to bring some heat your next speaking engagement, MC L, I, double FD. Christopher McCulloch dot com. Too much to do not enough time to get it done. Call on the experts at another eight hours for your business support needs by partnering with another eight hours. We allow you to focus on the more important matters like being in front of your clients doing what you do best rather than being stuck at a desk point over paperwork. Rummaging through emails returning phone calls and struggling to get everything done by yourself. Meanwhile, your family and socialite going down the drain go to another eight hours dot com or call eight more hours that's eight six six seven three four six eight seven seven in the military things can change in an instant navy mutual aid association we understand because it's our life too. That's why our dedication to serving the life insurance needs of our military veterans and their families is unrivalled navy mutual offer superior life insurance protection without military, service, restrictions and limitations a single focus on providing the peace of mind military. Families are looking for. That's what we do navy mutual ensuring those who serve call eight hundred six to eight sixty eleven go to. Eighty mutual dot org. Kindred vixen was crowned the number one sales executive through hard work deep thinking and the revelation of universal talk wise. He now wants to share these lessons with you. Universal talk laws or what you need to know and use in business and at home to have successful and affective conversations came Dixon. Shares. His wisdom action plans in wealth each book comes with a chance to win ten thousand dollars. Find universal talk laws at Kenge addiction dot com.

Nancy Philp Steve Stephen Christopher McCulloch Austin San Diego navy mutual aid association Texas Tony Robins Rady Kelly Christopher McCulloch Franks ASA lated Amar sales executive Tampa Ritchey Dixon
Episode 70Z __Reimagining Your Process

voiceFirst careers

00:00 sec | 4 months ago

Episode 70Z __Reimagining Your Process

"You Got Him Jeff Ski Kinsey. Ham, the founder of something called voice. I dot careers, and we appreciate you. Tuning in this is episode seventy Z. as in said. In this is the voice I. Dot careers, podcast and flash briefing. So, what's happening in? What's Z. All about the said? Well we do episodes aimed at the hiring manager aimed at talent, the a player to be named later. And we have some. Catchall. Episodes like this one. In, so and went by the way I. WanNa follow up yesterday. I had started sharing some tenants from my book the Purple Curve Effect. It's a business leadership guide among many other things. But let's touch on these tenants. So ten at number four. If you want to increase your luck focus on your weakest link. Let's write. Something now don't take this wrong way I'm not talking about. Attacking your weakness and spending a bunch of time trying to eliminate your weaknesses. That's not what this is about gay. This is about. Every? System a system is. A group of processes right. Every system is like a link chain. It has one weakest link. And if you apply enough force on the system on your processes, it'll break. And where we'll break, it'll break at the weakest link. I remember years ago. My father was a counselor. He worked with business people. And a gentleman was buying a another company a supplier somebody in their supply chain. And they were a number of miles away. Let's call. Roughly an hour away maybe not quite. So is buying the company and looking to relocate it. In. There was some options. Come up for possible. Relocation or not to relocate it. And will to my dad as he shared his with Nice. What if something goes wrong? Minnie's award mean there's something in the supply chain meal some some process breaks down and gums up the works with an hour away before they get down there and get their boots on the ground. You know maybe just maybe it makes sense. The wreak located closer. And that's exactly what they ended up doing so. You're going to have a weak link in every process, and you have to be aware of it. You have to figure out. How to turn that into your strength, and that's that's a conversation for a whole nother day. Include a link to my book. The PDF of the book is free. There's also in the link share, there's also. An interview when I published a book back in the year two thousand and four I did a a cable TV talk show interview with one of my good friends at McCulloch business partner on several ventures. And it'll give you some additional insight into the book. But ten number five. The squeaky wheel gets the oil. Get this is this is a truism. You cannot get around this. I remember years ago. I hired somebody because every morning. When the doors open, he showed up looking for work and I'd say well. We don't have anything or it got to the point a few days in I would tell by. Assistant. WHO also happen to be the receptionist you know, tell them there's nothing there's nothing here. I think that went on for a little over a week in finally. I said you know it is an opening. Maybe and I ended up hiring the person. The squeaky wheel gets the oil. And number six. You get what you pay for. Now this. The has to be careful with this one. It isn't always. At face value. In Fact Zig Ziglar didn't amazing a presentation actually. Bob Berg who I mentioned earlier this morning on a on on a tweet. Bob Berg was AD in events celebrating Zig Ziglar amazing career. Bob Berg told about this particular story. And it has to do with you. Tell somebody the the price. You're charging for a service. And they said well hold at that price is way too high. In Zig Ziglar says woe. Is the pressure worried about, or is it the cost? And almost without fail the suspect or the prospect say well. What's the difference? Exactly, so you get exactly what you pay for. But you have to dig a little bit under the covers to figure out exactly what that means. I. I have used open source software. Most I. Dull career I got involved with the UNIX. Operating System. actually going back to Zine, ix back. Wow Nineteen Eighty, eight Eighty nine somewhere in there. In. In a changed my outlook on the world then comes along this Lennox Operating System Open source, and I've built some amazing solutions with free software in fact red hat. became a thing by selling free software the how they sell actually sold services around. The free software. In so. What is it you're doing here's this this virus thing out there in its hammering away at almost everybody not yes, in some regards, some businesses are just flourishing because of the virus, but many way, too many have been sidelined decimated. I saw some post this week about different retailers. Filing for bankruptcy because of the virus will. There's an opportunity there. We have to get out of our own way. We have to look at the world through a different Lens. In, that's. The case for hiring. In the hiring world, if you think it status quo then. You're not paying attention. Everything has changed. Now of course, I know I work with a lot of hiring managers, and they want what they want and that's great. You know that might have worked six months ago in my work six years ago. The rules have changed. Have you change with them? Have you figured out what Your Business looks like what you need in what you're able to and willing to do? Now that the rules have changed. Too many business owners. Sea Level people have not. Actually comprehended. Not Actually. Alexei, I like say, stop drop and roll around some new ideas. Number people haven't figured out. The rules have changed now. If you take advantage of that. If you leverage it, your business could explode. But not with the thinking that got us into this problem. Einstein said the thinking that created the problem is not sufficient to get you out of it, so if I can help, reach out best way to do that. Pick up the phone dial pound, two five zero and say contact ski. In if you're hiring manager, say hey. I need help reinventing my hiring process. And we'll get her done.

Zig Ziglar Bob Berg Jeff Ski Kinsey founder McCulloch Minnie Alexei Einstein partner six months six years
Minority Deport

Orange is the New Black Podcast

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Minority Deport

"The years gone by. I'm so glad you who me with love. You give me a agenda that you be mine one day. Sabu <music> back to the orange is the new black podcast <hes> cast okay. We're recording late tonight. If you can't tell by my voice i'm perfectly. Thanks i hell along that and that also might mean that i get some things wrong so i'm just giving you a little bit of a warning up front. We're talking season seven episode. Six five already got one wrong season seven episode five minority deport. What a great name all right martha. Let's lead tries to keep her teen daughter out of trouble. Piper and cal showed their responsibilities for a day and blanca navigates the legal system. What do you wanna stir talking about. I think we should talk about a laid okay. I think we should too yeah <hes>. She's got not a whole lot going on yeah so let's we got her back story. You wanna start with their back story. Why i think it's all tied together. <hes> came the backstory. The we see her first time we see her in the back story <hes> she's what thirteen maybe yeah. I guess she's probably thirteen and her. Mom is there in a bar and her. Mom is basically selling her out. She's like she's. She's literally wearing her out for money right right and she's teaching her. Basically this is how you get by yeah and that age allayed played <hes> doesn't seem. She seems like she kind of knows. This isn't right but she also. She's got a screw loose. She really does like like and i think that's a result of this upbringing like she. You sense that at that point she hasn't hong completely clearly aleida away but she at the same time does even by the end of that scene where she she's like fine. I'm gonna do this and i'm gonna show you like and she's got. She's not i think in that scene though she really wasn't she was just she knew she didn't emma choice choice right right right but she i'm talking about at the later. It goes to dance with him. She's looking at her mom lake. I'm gonna i'm showing you. I don't have a choice but i'm showing you. I'm i'm rising above it. It's my choice to do all right i i didn't. I didn't read that but that's okay. I could have just has been looking at it through my own filter but i felt that she was looking at her like i can't believe you're making me do this and her mom's doing the smile l. at her and then she does the smile at her mom and then puts it right back away as she's looking away like i didn't get that impression. I'm not saying you're wrong. Long notes what i kind of took i mean i think that she was like i can't believe you're making me do this but at the same time it was that moment when she did the thing where she smiled meilen took it back. I was like that's the that's the the beginnings of the later. We know yeah. Oh i agree with that <hes> but i don't think that she she was doing it like oh. I'm taking control. She was doing it like i hate you like just but she because she's not much older. When we see the next well well then her mom leaves right and she's stealing boos as she's she's got this like warped view of of the world life and even so much as the creepy pedophile ice cream guy is like offering thirty bucks for services and she's like yeah all right fifty bucks. Let's do this and free ice cream for life which shows she's still a child child. She is she has learned how to get by by right and then she ends up in juvie chips in juvie and even there the way she's talking everybody. It's it's totally. The young has later yeah. It's like instead of her. Learning other coping mechanisms it just gets worse and were the worst and she's never been parented her dad's office in her whole life or whatever we know of her life. I mean from what we gather and her moms. I mean now. There is an immature woman. Yet is very different than gloria. Which is why. I was vehemently defending glory dan yes. I'm with episode well. This was navigated through that we found out that i didn't but this is an immature mom and and and someone who has no <hes> skills right and and is using her daughter to get at her needs met right and <hes> because the husband is in prison and and she doesn't want to get her. You know it's interesting. When you think about a later older later she was a terrible parent with dia. Yes she's been a terrible parent in general but then like she's trying to protect these kids but she only protect so far. It's just a really really interesting thing dynamic that she has with her children yeah and how she views that like i can imagine when you're writing this and you're trying to create at this character. It had to be like i. I don't know how you even right because when you write you kind of relate to your character even but if it's something dark yeah but they're probably certain writers on the team that have experienced that had just to me. I watch her and it's just very very foreign to me. Yeah it's really are yeah. I don't know that i could have written a character like this like this if i hadn't ever experienced a person like this her name but at the same time i think is she's wildly interesting to watch yes. She's very layered. Oh yes yeah and once again another one who if she was channelled properly could be a c._e._o. Yes parental how she was. When she got out she was starting to sell that stuff and she was doing good adults. She she which is motivated the right way but the problem is her default setting is to go to crime yeah because it's like oh. I can make more more money by doing this faster so her default is to go back to that every time which goes back to they weren't really rehabbing. 'em there at litchfield right of course so she is. She's got her kids back right. We've known that for a while and she and hopper and he's just funneling funneling money to them and and being very doting and and elitist just using the heck and so they're shopping and then she finds out that her daughter able has a an an older boyfriend. He's ten years older so you're talking like a twenty three year. Old and thirteen calls him out as a pedophile. She's like yeah. She's a thirteen year old right and he said i don't know what he said but it was something disgusting about like they take care of you or something like i know what i wanna know and said he's a drug dealer and she calls it out immediately and he's definitely as we see later. He definitely is going to start tempting eva. He tried. He tried to continue to yeah and we've scene. There is a pattern going on in this family here. We go right so what ends up happening. It's going to drive her. Even more into that. Guy's is arms so alita. Aleida brings her daughter to see dia so that she will straighten her out. She's trying to be that scared and dia completely completely calls out as a drug dealer as a horrible mom as like just a non-functioning. She calls out the whole thing about caesar all of it she just she's like whoa whoa how you're making money this and like oh she's with an older guy you mean mean caesar oh really and consoles opener face at backfires and then of course eva ends up right back angels else clutches and he's doing. He's trying to get hurt again and then a lady comes and beats the crap out of him and and then smashes a car window and ends up going but it's not even his window now. It was like that's not his car and the neighbor is up there filming no. They're going to do something where you see they. She's going going back to save us. Oh yeah but there's going to be somebody's going to see it on social media yeah. She's going to go back to prison now. This is a case where like we said back in the first episode. We're like we don't want to slip back in. It's too easy <hes> <hes> latest gonna fall back yet. Yes but what i think the lanes then i mean there's no way she was out way longer than we thought should be. Yes she's going back. Yeah and she's somebody who does that. Mean hoppers going to end up with all her kids will. They're gonna they're gonna scare the wins. Though to the the youngest will stay with him him but like abbas gonna bolt. Hell stop selling the drugs. Now yeah if the latest gone. I'll know that she'll want him to do it from inside right. Oh no yeah but she's a prisoner. What's he gonna do. She can say whatever she wants. She wants when he's in there if he if she tries that he can say like look. I had had a relationship with her what she's making this stuff up. She's trying to tear me down. She's playing some kind of game. No that's it's not my point. My point is that she controls him and if she's inside oh you've pictures gonna continue that control and it's going to be any now. She's gonna russell dia 'cause she's pissed dia god so they're gonna fight it out. It's going to be like that. One season season where we hated with that woman the second season well is her name. I can't remember i hated no but that one who thought who moved in and challenge red ask yeah and i can't remember her name yeah that was five seasons ago but the reality is when she gets if she if she ends up back there which it sounds like she's going to. I would figure that's going to happen. It's going to be ugly. I don't i don't i don't know i don't know where this is going. I just don't know where this is going yeah. I'm pretty sure she's going back to prison. Oh yeah there's no way he's got. The charges wonder if they'll put her back in there or if they'll move her somewhere else. Is she legal. Oh you think do you think well when they were showing but when they were showing the beginning ginning oh i don't know well we'll find out. I doubt she's illegal. If she's illegal. They're going to put her in the the ice one right right. They could do that because this wasn't happening. When they went into prison nachos that it might not be that she's illegal it might be that they took her. She doesn't have any papers or whatever and they'd just filter her immediately to the tension center. That's what i'm saying could be could be. She could get deported like out of nowhere. Yeah gone yeah which would not be a bad thing for her. Kids really although i the whole thing such a mess and she sleeping with caesar and hopper doesn't know what's going on and he's like thinking they're in a relationship tip one and it's just it's such a huge mess such a huge mess actually i. I think hoppers a misguided guy. I don't think he's necessarily one of the big bads now just in that. He's just getting taken yeah and it's putting him into a bad position. I think he's just easily manipulated by due to all right. I wanna talk about piper okay and mccullough in all of that 'cause i just i really will do you think that alex mcculloch are gonna mccullough's totally want those wanting. I don't alex alex might do it if she feels. She doesn't have a choice right foot. Alex isn't i don't i don't i don't see her cheating on paper she will she will she will because mcculloch will manipulated related so she doesn't have a choice. I don't see her cheating on piper willingly as a willing participant. I can't resist this. I agree that's what i'm saying even though she does check out every time a pull things out of a bra well l. best <hes> but yes she's human all right so oh alex is trying to order piper flowers right and she and her she can't get the payment to work and so she wants mccullough to to do it while mccullough's not gonna right do that yeah so she says well you do a a detour then take her some stuff so she went to the storage edge unit that alex has that had all their it had closed pitchers that had and she took this awful t shirt sure and their faces on it now it was interesting mccall. It was living through alex's is she was looking at the close. Oh susanna pictures and imagine what it's like and she said i one. I must be nice to have a woman in your life to have that so <hes> so she's she's. She's curious about thing so that was happening and also <hes> piper and cal they wanted a snow day and piper's freaking bad influence fluence like one hundred percent of the time right pipers abandoned floor. She's she just is and cal's trying to do the right thing and she's she's just a really bad influence right <hes> and so then of course she sucks him in and well. He's easy to suck in to these telling her all the ways. He's worked around the system and then right but here he is in his relationship. He's got a baby and he's and he's like trying to convince him and he's the one that brought the drugs rox yes and so they're having bloody marys and the those kind that we have those all over chicago now too with food and everything yeah and so they're eating the bloody mary and then walk obeef edited. There was asparagus olives. It was just and then he pulls out chocolate click covered blueberry pot things blueberries and and she's like oh no i can't i get urine tested and he's like he's going to your and he says i have a very particular set of skills niessen josh of skills yeah well his that sounded more like it sounds like sean sean connery. Yeah you know what i have to voices well. That was that was a bad eh one for liam neeson so then they get high and they're trying ice cream. Oh they're the ice cream shop and they're clearly allstone allstone. Yeah she's trying. There's also because i'm really high all my god tyre c. so she then he told her how to cheat the drug test homey the the whole thing is about how you put it underneath your mail units yeah. She's like i don't have and he's like oh never mind then you just let's do this and do your k- goals and then she's like. I'm doing i'm right now. Are you doing my god gross and the face that she was kaliyan what's so funny <hes> so she goes to her parole officer her probation officer and the woman obviously no she tampered with the urine sample and and tricks her right into admitting it and then how did she not personally idea yeah i i an idiot and she's like i'm not gonna bust for that whole good so gullible and then she's got to go to ten a._m. You but at least sleman didn't really buster. She is trying to guide her. She is not the bad guy no and i love that she totally called her out run run and she's like what is wrong with you. The women i have come through here have four kids. They're they are struggling and all these you have everything like you have every indiana jr and you and your and your eating blueberry pie. She's like blue is a stupid word. You know like <hes> <hes> but it goes head to oh. God piper can't help but be an idiot right. She can't help it so she's now got to go to these ten eight meeting. We'll still have acas at a narcotics anonymous. I heard a it was an okay <hes> same same thing right right but <hes> all right so then <hes> she goes back and cal cal callen near you're fighting because he didn't get the refrigerator fixed and he he just didn't do any of his right because he took his snow day with her and so they both have to drink breast milk smoothies as punishment. I love near pricks it. She goes ear drinks rigs vis. It has a lot of vitamins and enzymes. I have a sister who put breastmilk in brownies that she served at a at a big big party because she ran out of milk and she put breastmilk in and then kind of watched everybody's reaction to see if they delicious delicious boy avid this flavor in what fifty years <hes> so on that note all all right. Who do you want. Where do you wanna go next. Oh my gosh. I keep saying where we're going well. You know why because let's let's talk about tasty heartbreaker. She jumps she she first off goes to ward yes and has a plan. Hey i could could work for you. I wanna do this word says no at first. She was really good which wasn't and words like look. I'm taking crap about a relationship anyway. This is not a good idea and then idiot hopper out comes in and takes her off and she's like no. You're my sister knows opera oppor. Yeah i even wrote a town. You know i wrote it down but yeah he the one that comes in and she's like what you don't know how to knock and then she says assistant instant so boom tasty gets gig and i'm thinking i'm hoping that the attempted suicide a wake up call but it's not now she goes right back to die. I ask like look. I'm on the inside now. He's gonna give her intel in order to work off. The poison like her boys get the poison so that she could could finally co herself so i'm hoping that time 'cause dia said well. It's gonna take you a while because i need proof that the intel's actually going to be good and he has to do something so diet is prolonging it so hopefully she'll prolong it long enough that tasty wilson resolution for twelve pick a different path yes and she does do such a good job and then when she's in there doing the job hortas like wow yeah you're really really he had this is my thing but then as soon as word walks out of the office tasty is sticking around because she's looking for intel for dia yeah all we always remember. She's doing it to kill herself and heartbreaker. She finds cindy's file vile and that cindy's flagged for early roy. Yes it has she sold. He sti down the river. It's the final cut. It's so so awful yeah so let's talk about red. Okay you want to read okay. We're done with tasty yeah. I guess we are red is having some trouble reds losing it. She is she has got severe. Memory loss us a and i think as a result of time in the shoe. I think it might be or but she's got that. What am i caught a head injury right. I have small still still related to what you've got scale because you saw her hair is still funny yeah and she has that cut down for. I think that she has some sort of brain damage damage i think she might do and and she knows yeah and she forgot to cook the pasta yeah that you just shoved it in yeah and then tried tried to blame everybody else. I think she over-salted the stew in the last episode you had mentioned how like old red was back. She flipped a switch and we'll say yeah yeah. I think that she was doing that because she was able like. If i'm not having remember this minutia i can be in charter. He'll be the boss. I can hide this but as soon as she has to work as a line cook and do anything there. She's yes yes. She can't remember anything anything. It sucks and it was a real heartbreaker win. Gloria tried to quietly career darlie. Yeah protector in red is like fighting is resistant. Yeah you know i it oh and sad. It's really sad so it'll be interesting to see see how that plays out. I can't imagine they're that they're going to be able to get her help right. I mean you know so. There's a chance but will it be too late yeah but there but i don't think they're going to have people that will sit down with her and help work on her cognitive skill. You know what i'm saying. They help help you know so i don't i think there's a whole lot of hope there but can they have her be in the kitchen with them and just limit her duties and it will read be okay. Okay with that right so it's not gonna it's sad this is sad no matter good situation no matter what and she was like verbally attacking nikki yeah the girl. I don't know her name. Oh damn russian heart but she likes her that girl. I i shouldn't even say this just because i was gonna say like oh no no she just seems really clean and put together and happy for someone who's been detained for eighteen months and has no chance of finding out what the hell is going on with her future. All the other women are seem in character and seem like they're eh beaten down by this. She seems like she just got off the freaking runway and i'm like what is where's her deal. And why is she so happy. I'll tell you i'll i'll tell you it's so weird yeah that there was a moment where i thought is she undercover maroon here yeah something like is she a plant because what would that be why i don't know but but it is so weird and she is just perfectly lee done. She's clean. She's fresh and she's so happy and she's like oh. I signed. I've been here for eight and i came to this country. 'cause i love taylor you know and then she's like what's in those and i'm sitting sitting here going. What the hell did i enter some alternate reality. Series lie is in how you know what tater shots are if that was her motivation coming and why isn't she terrified and why doesn't she look like the other all all the other women right. There's not another woman who's walking around like like life is perfect and she you know oh i just come here and work during the days when they go home and i have a family and the rest seem like they're being tortured and they look like they're being tortured. And why does she let it was we we that is weird. I agree okay so it wasn't just is she appropriately. It would seem really like a weird thing to have happened but but that i would explain why she's like that. I guess i don't know but she <hes> <hes> she's there. They either get asylum salaam or deported. Those are the two choices and not choices. Those are the two options <hes> that the government has as for them. They're either allowed to stay and they get asylum or they are deported and <hes> she didn't seem and too concerned either direction and then nicky bought her or smuggled her in. I don't know if she paid for him but she smuggled her. In potato chips <hes> <hes> these are like tater tots like that was very weird. It's not out of character for nicky. Nobody it's out of character. It's out of your show every weird unless they're just showing nikki flirting with her and that's fine but you would think you would so nonplussed by. She's just like she's just happy. Go lucky. I mean really yeah. I don't get it. I don't get it and she's like they take them in the morning and everyone's got this look of fear on their faces and she's just like going so that was the kitchen morente was getting ready and showered and stuff and then when she came back they had taken blanca and then <hes> gloria. I'm not sure the order of things will the gloria dropped the cab off to get o'neal to bring maritza and blunkett in that was after this and then blanca she comes in as a blank has gone and they don't know where she is but they've gotten her a number for a lawyer for free lawyer and it's <hes> it's pound nine nine four eight one and mariscos nuts because as beyonce as birthright which made me die later on even better she's in the bed when she claimed to to be on say well no she was praying to be onsite because i know you've got a lot with blue. Ivy is that beyond says. I thought that was a <hes>. I thought that was kim kardashian who has blue ivy. She has years. Oh dear god okay. I don't know anything so yeah. We'll go with that so it's beyond so she was praying to beyond saying that makes sense <hes> so blanquita thou though in the meantime is at the court right and the woman who goes ahead of her is so well versed in her rights yeah so she gets up there and and and before that thirteen of them mm-hmm got deported justice and got up there and said i know my rights and i am not going to say this. I'm not going to acknowledge that paper because i don't know what's on it and you have to prove that i am not a citizen and you have to prove that i don't have my green card and and i want a delayed court date so that i could secure lawyer yes oh she knew the legal system and work your way through it and so blocked a came up up and tried to copy her and ended up getting her case delayed so she could get a lawyer and it worked by the time she went back to tell merit aw maritza was gone right and she got deported. She got deported because she was sharing that number and the is they don't want them to have have knowledge. They them to find a way around this which is at so sick. It's so sick to watch yeah. It is literally while we were reading about it and it's even worse in reality reading about it and and the fact that they keep them in the dark mark on purpose and they can detain them for however long they can <hes> <hes> they can <hes> if someone calls to ask about them they anything that person says can be used against right this other the person right no matter what that's insane right <hes> there are so many things that are really <hes> terrifying and i'm not stop yeah so maria was trying to help people and it backfired and she is gone alone to you were country. She may never even have ever been in and since she was a baby and has no family. No friends no nothing and no no prospects and what is gonna happen. Does she have it on a record. What happens with the country so we need to research that next in finding finding out yeah because i don't know because she just get off the plane and they take the shackles off and that's it or go into custody on that and until they reintegrate her or what i don't know. I don't know especially when she was. She was a former the prisoner right like are they going to look at her and go. You're a criminal grand. You know who. I don't know how that works man man. It's i mean they could kick her out. It's all terrifying or they could lock her up for the rest of roy who knows and the countries these people are leaving. They're leaving for reason right and are they coming back to something even scarier than this right. I i don't know yeah. It's it's pretty awful. So there you go that. We did was that everything yeah yeah yeah. I can't think of anything we missed. I'm sure there's stuff. We missed but i don't think we that was pretty thorough. It just is like each of the things was just sort of quick but <hes> yeah but it was a one of those yet moving the story forward but it wasn't like that last one was so depressing oppressing. This was wildly depressing. This one was really scary. This season has been pretty traumatic. Yeah yeah <hes> i this is really an excellencies but man. I'm having trouble getting through some of these storylines just so painful on their hitting to close to homepride home. Usually we can watch shows like this and you get a little bit of an escape. It's different than your than what's going on in the world and this one is paralleling lean like a it's it is it's like watching handmaid's tale like that. One is really really hard to watch right now and this mrs even more so yeah very very real so real very difficult that it yeah okay on episode six episodes six and let me <hes> let me do a little bit of the social media stuff follow us on twitter orange podcast follow us on facebook at orange is the new black podcast and we also have an instagram which orange podcast that when we don't use as much <hes> but if we see a lot of activity pop up on there maybe we'll start and you can also send us is an email at south new group at g mail dot com you can also find links on our website which south media group dot com click on where it says podcast categories cod tv. You'll find our logo their way age. That has our show information. Shen has a link to citizen email and it might even have a voicemail income. I don't know if you wanna t shirt. That's in the show notes to all right martha. I'm done are you done. She's nodding so we'll say she's dodd. That's it inmates back to your cells.

alex alex piper cal martha intel mccullough nikki Sabu blanca indiana sean sean connery alex mcculloch liam neeson nicky cindy meilen hopper Guy Aleida
Is Internet Language Bad? (w/ Gretchen McCulloch) and How to Remember More Dreams

Curiosity Daily

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Is Internet Language Bad? (w/ Gretchen McCulloch) and How to Remember More Dreams

"<music> hi we're here from curiosity dot com help you get smarter in just a few minutes on cody gov and i'm ashley hamer today. Learn about what you can do to remember more of your dreams. You'll also learn about the difference between internet language and regular language in the first edition of our hashtag tuesday's miniseries with internet linguist gretchen mikolasik o._m._g. Let satisfy some curiosity. There are things you can do if you want to remember more of your dreams and obviously dreams are still mysterious to scientists and dreamers alike but there is research suggesting there could be some fundamental differences between people who remember their dreams and those who don't one is gender researchers don't know why but women tend into remember their dreams more often than men this could be due to gender differences when it comes to interest in dreams barak could be due to hormonal or biological differences and is not just who you are but how you sleep that can impact how you remember your dreams when you fall asleep slowly you enter hypnotic gajah which is a period of dreamlike visual auditory and physical hallucinations that occur just at the onset of sleep you dream more regularly when you enter ram sleep which is that dream ready phase as they comes with physiological changes in heart rate blood pressure and breathing near the end of ram. Your body either prepares to wake up or to cycle through the sleep stages again and those who wake up toward the end of rim phase are more likely to remember their dreams and based on this and other research scientists think some simple tricks might help you become a high be color. I drink three four glasses of water before you go to sleep. You'll wake up more frequently and as we know that could help you remember your dreams. I said water although not beer or wine alcohol suppresses remm so that's not going to help second put dreaming on your to do list repeat the phrase. I'm going to remember remind dreams three times before zong out your brain lakes to work on important things before asleep and this habit reinforce dreaming as a priority. Make sure you have a pen and paper paper next to your bed in case you need to remember what you just dreamed and third wake up slowly the worst thing you can do wake up turn to your partner in say i just had the coolest extreme do that and you might forget it forever instead. Stay half asleep and replay your dreams as best you can replaying. We'll help you store the memory differently so you remember remember for a long time. Oh and one more thing remember that the longer you sleep the more room time you have and the more opportunities you'll have to dream and remember so just gets the more sleep speaking of sleep. Today's episode is sponsored by purple mattress. Sleep is important and not just for remembering your dreams. The quality of your sleep affects the quality the of your daily life actually his see me on days when i'm not well rested and let's say we're not allowed to record podcasts on those days. It's a rule that's for sure and if you're struggling we're going to get a good night's sleep then you've gotta try purple mattress. It'll probably feel different than anything you've ever experienced because it uses a brand new material that was developed an actual rocket scientist. It's not like the memory foam you might be used to. The purple material feels unique because it's both firm and soft at the same time it keeps everything supported while still feeling ailing really comfortable plus. It's beatable so it's cool and when you order you'll get one hundred risk free trial. If you're not fully satisfied you can return your mattress for a full refund. It's it's also backed by a ten year warranty with free shipping and returns. You're going to love purple and right now. Curiosity daily listeners will get a free purple pillow with a purchase of a mattress. That's on top of all the great free gifts. They're offering site-wide just text curious to eighty four eight eight eight the only way to get this free pillow is to text curious to eighty four four eight eight eight. That's c. u. r. o. u. S. two eight four eight message and data rates may apply it. It's pretty clear that the digital world is transforming the way we we use language and we're going to look into exactly how it's doing so in our hashtag tuesday's miniseries. Our guest for the series is internet linguist gretchen mcculloch ick author of the new book because internet understanding the new rules of language in this series. We'll tackle whether internet speed is really corrupting our youth and some of the surprising the differences in online dialects between people from different places and generations will kick off today's conversation by doing some level setting this question. How is internet language different than the language. We may be read in a book or speak to each other in real life. What i think is really interesting about internet language is that it's informal writing and it's a huge under domain for informal writing and writing as a way to have conversations with each other in real time which is something that we haven't really had access to we've had others honors of informal writing like letters and postcards and stuff but the idea that something can be both conversational and back and forth an informal and between friends and written down. It doesn't have to be edited in these kinds of things. It's a really interesting confluence of two things that have already been around. I know that one concern that i've seen in headlines is that internet speak is ruining the youths. How much truth is there to that. I think that language is always a really easy way to project your anxieties or your fears or your concerns about a particular group of people onto the language that you're using so if you're worried about the youth it's easy to project those those worries onto language but language has always changed language has always been different from one generation to another and it's still around. It's still surviving. It's still craving. There was no golden era of language. That was intrinsically superior. That's just a romanticize ation of particular era for historical reasons well is is there any truth to the worry that you know in the future are academic. Papers and books are going to be full of l._l. And emojis and things like that or is it something else i like to look think about academic papers and the exclamation mark so the exclamation mark is uncontroversial really hard of the english bush punctuation repertoire and yet you don't find exclamation marks in academic papers you find them in like newspapers papers because exclamation marks are emotiv and the convention for those genres is that there unimpeded and they're disembodied and they're not inserting the author into the work and so if we can't even get an exclamation mark which is no one thinks exclamation. Mark is nonstandard or is you. You know just a kids these days sort of thing. We can't even get an exclamation mark. I don't think we're gonna end up with an emoji in there unless it's being quoted for some sort of academic analysis of it. I don't think you have with an emoji because an emoji is older way of the author taking his stats and that's just the convention for academic papers for authors to insert themselves into that. Do you think that's it's almost a weakness of of some professional rating because for example there's no sarcasm typeface and there are certain ways to misinterpret language. Perhaps more widespread. It's producer exclamation. Marks would help facilitate that so is that a problem. I think that it's okay that there are different ways of language that there are different styles. I also language for different circumstances. There are different styles associated with different people. That doesn't have to be one right answer. If you find not use. The exclamation marks is hindering you then use the right answer and actually cody touched on something that i think is really cool. This book is that actually the internet has come up with a way of conveying sarcasm. Sarcasm isn't that right and many ways of conveying sarcasm and i think that you know there are philosophical proposals to try to come up with sarcasm or ironic punctuation actuation mark dating back to the fifteen hundreds and it seemed many ways that they were dreaming too small. They were trying to cope with a single ambiguous punctuation mark to indicate irony when what's actually fascinating but irony is that it has a double meaning and it requires an extra layer of interpretation and so if you wanna convey something completely lucid league and make it completely understandable we already have a tool for that and it's called not being sarcastic and so at the point at which you're trying to day irony you need that extra interpretation step need hint but there is a double meaning and it's not really irony. There isn't some possibility of misinterpretation yeah you you just don't be ironic and then you're good but clearly we do want to be ironic because when someone successfully receives a double meaning it's really exciting because we feel like we access some sort of deeper layer of understanding. We've shared something. That was really important to them but it's like getting the joke you know we have lots of ways of naught naught misunderstanding jokes. You could just never make a joke but what's the thought of that who knew that we weren't the first generation to try to come up with a sarcasm typeface again that was gretchen gretchen mcculloch author of the new book because internet understanding the new rules of language you can find links to the book and more from gretchen in today's show notes and next week. She'll be back to talk about boomer speak and how people from different generations speak differently online and now. Let's recap what we learned today. Today we learned that you can remember more of your dreams if you wake up slowly slowly and of course if you get more sleep in the first place and that formal writing is safe from the scourge of emoji and that we've been trying to come up with a reliable way to write sarcastically glee first centuries but there's still no perfect solution in sight. It was also cool to learn that this is the first time in history researchers and linguists have really had access to huge amounts of informal ormeau conversational writing they can analyze in the past. It was always like postcards are journalism museums but archivists have only kept some of that stuff and mostly comes comes from certain classes of people say educated or wealthy people from throughout history. Not everyone in history is notable and man a lot of people on twitter who are not notable apple at least not for the right reasons. Join us again tomorrow to learn something new in just a few minutes. I'm cody goff and i'm ashley hamer state curious on the westwood one podcast network.

cody goff gretchen gretchen mcculloch ashley hamer gretchen mikolasik gretchen mcculloch barak twitter Mark partner scientist Marks boomer c. u. r. o. u. S. westwood one producer apple ten year
Online Boomer Speak (w/ Gretchen McCulloch) and Is Money Cant Buy Happiness True?

Curiosity Daily

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Online Boomer Speak (w/ Gretchen McCulloch) and Is Money Cant Buy Happiness True?

"<music> curiosity dot com to help. You get smarter in just a few minutes. I'm cody gov aamer today. Learn why the phrase money can't buy happiness isn't isn't always true. Then you learn how different generations right differently online some help from internet linguist and author gretchen mcculloch ick route status fasten curiosity acidy. We all know the cliche. Money can't buy happiness but clearly a certain amount of money can mean the difference between happiness and misery in two thousand ten then researchers decided to find out exactly how much money you would need to buy happiness and what they found was pretty interesting for their study researchers daniel common and angus deacon deacon differentiated between two types of happiness. I emotional wellbeing defined by day to day. Emotional experience second life evaluation russian defined as the self perception of one's life as a whole they analyzed four hundred fifty thousand responses to the gallup health ways wellbeing index which is a daily daily survey of u._s. Residents conducted by the gallup organization. The survey asked questions about things like how these people were feeling yesterday and how they see life as a whole emotional experiences experiences included questions like did you laugh a lot yesterday. Life assessment required people to rank themselves on a ladder where zero represented the worst life and ten represented the best life they found that when it comes to emotional wellbeing money does buy happiness but only to appoint the more money you make the more your day to day. Happiness improves until you hit around seventy five thousand dollars per year after that the improvement levels off but when it comes to life evaluation no matter matter their income bracket people who made more money had a more favourable evaluation of their life is a whole the study concluded that quote high income buys life life satisfaction but not happiness and that low income is associated both with low life evaluation and low emotional wellbeing unquote. The researchers suggests that once you have sufficient money to whether life storms your day to day life is pretty much stable but it's generally recognized that overall life evaluation is is tied to your level of education which in turn is tidier income in that way the fact that money can buy you a positive assessment of your life make sense. Maybe it's time we we all asked for a raise. Today's episode is sponsored by kiko kiko create super cool hands on projects for kids to make learning about steam fun steam esteem as in science technology engineering arts and math. I was helping my friends kids. Put these together and it reminded me of. I used to put together legos when i was a kid because of the cool instructions that are really really step by step but at the end of the day you don't just get like a cool looking brick tower you end up little science lessons and my friend's son ronin i'm like was playing with this little kaleidoscope part of it and playing around the colors and these cool lights and he and his little sister were totally engrossed with these projects. It was also also probably the first time that day. I didn't see them screaming at each other. That is a win. It brings the whole family together. It helps them learn about stuff and become more curious. Yes yeah just make science cool. Kiwi co is a convenient affordable way to encourage your children to be anything they wanna be. There's no commitment and you can cancel anytime monthly options started nineteen ninety five a month including shipping curiosity daily listeners go to cuba code dot com slash curiosity to get your first month free three every day counts when it comes to making a difference so do not miss out on this amazing opportunity again. Go to kiwi co dot com slash curiosity and get your first month free. That's kiwi co dot com slash curiosity. Why do our parents right so differently when they're talking online today. We're going to get some answers. In the second edition of our hashtag tuesday's miniseries our guest is internet linguist gretchen mcculloch author of the new book because internet understanding the new rules of language engage and she has some incredible insights into what's behind the internet dialect of baby boomers that you may have seen referred to as boomer speak but before she gets into we've asked her. What is the main reason why older people and younger people sounds different when they talk online. What i found really interesting is that a lot of discussion about internet differences focuses just on age when what i think is actually more interesting is the combination of the first first social network or first social platformer social experience had on the internet and what age you were. You had it because there's a difference between somebody right now. L. who's say fifty or sixty could have joined the internet in the early used at forum chatroom days they could have come online in the late nineties and early two thousands with the big wave of mainstream is asian got an email. Maybe ten years later got facebook. During the wave of like my mom got facebook sort of thing war they could be only gradually joining the internet in the past couple of years and this can be the same age but they have very different internet social experiences and even for the younger groups. If you joined the internet i on chat platforms like aim and m._s._n. Messenger and icy hugh in these kinds of things you had a different experience of the internet as a place to connect with your existing friends then people who joined a generation earlier and uses the way to meet new people and you can tell us in people's things like people's automotive con preferences mcgee prefer to use old school techspace motor cons. Do you keep the nose in the smiley. Emoji do have some some that you've been using for for years and you like. This is what this means even. Though else agrees with me that's a sign that you've been online for longer whereas the new arrivals and we're looking to have adapted to the newer stuff so it's a really interesting getting way of looking at how people message each other and what kinds of expectations we have each other based on where you were first online net brings us to boomer speak speak which i thought was one of the most amazing things i learned from this book. So why do baby boomers right online the way they do one of the big and questions that everyone had for me this book that i've been i've been teasing and saying you know you can get the answer. It's in the book was why do people use that dot dot dot dot dot dot for so the dot dot dot is between individual messages or individual utterances would be something like high dot dot dot. How's it going dot dot. I just wondered if you had any time to chat taught you know happy. Birthday dot where other generations younger generations might use line breaks between those things or might send each one as an individual message and they're both communicating and utterances to sort of bursts of words that aren't necessarily a full sentence but aren't necessarily not which is a very natural way. That's how we talk as well oseltamivir natural way to communicate formally but the convention for how you break up your audiences is different across different generations and i ended up going through various kinds of rabbit rabbit holes to find historical precedents dot dot dot and especially where i ended up was with the earlier examples of informal writing like handwritten letters talk postcards and it turns out that there are these postcards from george harrison of the beatles and when you transcribe them these handwritten postcards they look like text messages from boomer like may look like the texas got the the greeting and farewell at the end they got all all these dot dot dots or dashes all throughout and genre wise thing look really similar to a text message from someone in that in generation gratien and what was interesting to me was okay so what's actually going on. Here is people in this generation or actually emoting conventions that they're familiar with a different medium <hes> and say okay. These are what i used to for informal writing. I'm going to do it in text as well rather than big. It was weird to me that all of these different boomers for all these different generations who mostly don't talk to each other that much online they mostly are aligned to talk to their younger family. Members were still communicating more like each other the family members they came online to reach so i feel like the big message for millennials who are getting messages from boomers is that the dot dot dot is them trying to be casual will not being passive aggressive yes yes and if you're in that generation where you use the doctor be casual you dream that someone could be passive aggressive text message it so far for what you think text messages are capable of. They don't know how to be passive aggressive attacks. Nothing what they're saying is passive aggressive and if you're gonna sell generation gaps like maybe maybe you can convince them boomers to type differently. Some people have said to me now. They don't use dot dot dot as much but also maybe we can also say don't over-interpret dot dot dot and really think about does this person think taxed as capable of passive aggression before you read into this must be passive aggressive. That's really good advice assume they're being nice just like maybe soon if people really want to cuss you out. They have plenty of overt options to do so. Give baby boomers credit. They're just trying to right the way they sound and they're not not trying to cause you undo anxiety again that was gretchen mcculloch ick author of the new book because internet understanding the new rules of language. You can find links to the book and more from gretchen in today's show notes and next week. She'll be back to talk about some really interesting international differences internet dialects and now let's recap what we learned today. Today we learned that money can buy happiness until you make about seventy five thousand dollars a year then not so much and it's not just your age that determines how you talk online but how old you were when you started using the internet and the baby boomers are just trying to rake conversation only online not be passive aggressive. Don't take it so personally annoy so hard. Sometimes though it's so hard join us again tomorrow to learn something new in just a few minutes. I'm cody goff and i'm ashley hamer. Stay curious <music> on the westwood one podcast network.

gretchen mcculloch facebook cuba westwood one Emoji hugh cody goff beatles oseltamivir george harrison texas ashley hamer seventy five thousand dollars ten years
How the Internet is Transforming Language with Gretchen McCulloch

Factually! with Adam Conover

00:00 sec | 3 months ago

How the Internet is Transforming Language with Gretchen McCulloch

"Right, now on ear will performance artists and social media personality. A Luke joins Jamila on highway to discuss all things, Trans Gender, non conforming and non binary, and how to be better ally for more follow at Your Wolf on Social Media Happy, listening? Rainy on Air Wolf comedian stealing your mom Diane or talking to famous MOMS about the stories only mother would know on. We called your mom available now wherever Makassar found. For more follow at your own. Social Media. Listening. It's easy to see why apartments DOT COM says they're the best site for renters because with virtual tours, it's easy to find a new space without leaving your place virtually view floor plans and amenities with three detours and explore hd videos and photos, including interiors, neighborhood images, and even drone footage of exterior views all from the comfort of your couch because we know that is where you are spending a lot of time lately, they make it that easy visit apartments dot com, and get into a new rental today apartments dot com the most popular place to find a place. DOC Hello everyone. Welcome. Factually. My Name's Adam Khan over and let's talk about language. You know the linguistic invention I'm using to communicate with you right now through this microphone look so. Goes out saying that words have meaning right but they don't always have the obvious meaning. You see in the dictionary, the words we choose and how we use them spray a thick fog of association in connotation around us, and they can reveal hints about our age, our social class or even our ethnicity I like to think of the words I use for instance, says the clothing that I wear depending on my word choices I could be wearing the linguistic equivalent of ripped jeans and a t shirt or a tailored three piece suit or Jin goes on Fedora pretty sure the word milady conjures. The image of that last one into your mind doesn't it? The point is there is no neutral use of language when we speak or when we write or when we text our words are telling stories about US regardless of the specific thing we're trying to say here's an example from my own life. I am general a really ingratiating emailer. Maybe you're like this all of my emails and with either way is fine. Whatever you want to do is good with me I don't want anyone to be mad at me. So I tend to make sure my emails come across really Nice and light. But. That's a problem for me because in the last few years, I've been in charge of making a few television shows and as uncomfortable as I am with the idea, I'm a boss and in a professional setting where I'm going back and forth with some powerful network executives, for instance being. So ingratiating is kind of bad look. So last year I made a change I decided that from now on I was going to stop using exclamation points in my emails cut out completely we're going with periods nor exclamations. And it had an instant effect. The effect was it immediately made me feel more confident adult mature when I wrote those emails you know saying sure we'll do with an exclamation point sounds chipper, but adding a period makes it sound matter of fact that becomes sure we'll do getting rid of all those exclamation points made me feel less needy? No longer was trying to cheer somebody up with my email or make them feel extra positive about I, don't know my email about script notes or whatever I still use exclamation points with. My friends, my parents, people that I want to communicate friendliness and enthusiasm to. But in working I find if I get rid of them, I can adopt a certain steeliness, which is useful. If you need to get things done which I often do losing the exclamation point has given me the same feeling of confidence i. get when I dress up a little bit right I'm trading my linguistic beat up pudding for a business suit when the occasion requires, the point is the language we use can change the way we feel about. Ourselves and how people feel about us, and in fact languages. So powerful that it can even change how we perceive the world. One study found that perceptions of color differed back on People's native language and the way those languages categorized color. Another study found that people's perceptions of time could actually change depending on the metaphor their native language used for time language shapes us in profound ways, and it is so complex that we are constantly discovering more about this thing that we use all the time is just like the ocean something. That we're still plumbing the depths of except that it's in our own minds and our culture take the Internet it's transformed the way that we use language and it's created totally new context and forms for us to communicate in with the Internet. We're communicating more than ever with new rules and new meanings, and we are still discovering how those new changes are affecting. The way we speak the way we think and the way we conceive of ourselves and talked to us about that today, we have the ideal guest Gretchen, McCulloch is a. PODCAST and writer WHO's the author of the book because Internet understanding the new rules of language. This conversation was so fascinating and incredible time talking I can't wait for you to hear it. Let's get right to the interview with Gretchen McCulloch. Let's just start the conversation here because I want to make this point. I can't stand. Looking at myself while I'm on a video conference and it, I can't believe the default is to show you your own video because it makes you completely completely neurotic conversation because when are you talking to other people in real life and constantly looking at yourself? It makes you it's like being at a bar with a mirror like sometimes you go to a bar. Who We went to bars and you're and you're like, Oh, no, I'm sitting here looking at my teeth I have anything my teeth the entire time. Sometimes they do or what I suggest that he will do is get like a sticky note and just manually attached to your screens a-block, your own video of yourself. Because if I don't do that, I'm just constantly looking at myself getting what's best angle leg you know am I are my glasses on Rye da da? It's it's bizarre changes, our behavior and is just one example of the many ways in which the Internet changes our behavior, this way sounding to practice but. But you are you're linguists in you research how the Internet changes our language How how has give me some examples of that? How has it done? So well, one of the things that I'm really excited about it. Then especially before the tremendous rising video content, which I think if they, if they ever give me a second edition and I get to add another chapter in my. Video the paperback with a bonus chapter? We didn't do that because they came out quite quickly but if the Ritz revised edition five or ten years. Because the problem is, is like there I sure. There are several people who are currently writing like their PhD dissertation about Ticks Hawk or video streaming video conferencing haven't been written yet. So I have a strong interest in video but not a lot to site. and. So the thing where I do have stuff to site is on how we communicate with each other tax and how Formal text and informal writing in the online context in a way that sort of. Different and exciting and interesting compared to traditional like Oh you know you you learn how to read you read books. Other people have edited these books and it's the formal context. So how we right now is a big question that I'm trying to figure out an answer to because Internet because it's you know we're we're doing a lot more writing than we used to do as a society and we know. About it. You know. Yeah. and. It strikes me that we're talking about language and linguistics here. But like. I feel like there's an easy way to pigeonhole that and say, oh, that's just like, oh, what kind of grammar do people use it Cetera and that's fun to learn about to. But we're really talking about is the Internet fundamentally changing the way we communicate, and therefore the way we behave it's like you know when the when the printing press was invented once people began to be able to. Write these long form works people started to spread ideas in a different way started to think in a different way it started to act in a different way like it changed the new communications technology changed not just our language, but the shape of human society because of how the language changed and so to me, it's like. A, very big fascinating conversation topic and he has a big conversation and what's interesting about looking at Internet communication in terms of informal writing is that you can also find cre- Internet precursors to it So one of the things that I find really fascinating is looking at. So things like postcards I looked at a bunch of archival postcards when I was reading because Internet was really fascinating. You take them and you you typed them up. They look like texts from your. Grandma. Like what are they say? They've got the DOTS DOTS between the. Sentences. Like all of these hyphen. Dear dear. So and so like hope you're having fun dot dot dot. We're at this place. So and so X. Oh and sometimes they have little doodles on the corners which you could think of a sort of precursors to. Did draw and things. Yeah. Strange and have little happy faces our hearts or these kinds of things. The ex- ex- very common in British text messages. A lot of British people end their text messages with an X. is also there in the postcards. and. It's Like this little thing that people keep calling me over his why do these older people in my life? My parents my grandparents, my boss by you know, why do people use this dot dot dot and you can find precursors of the in postcards Generation is actually doing is importing norms from a different medium to something that's come of similar. But in in a digital form yeah, they're not just sort of. Because this is a big question for me is so how? How is it that a bunch of people's parents and grandparents and someone who do actually use the Internet that match? How is it that they're all doing the dot dot dot sick. Like, they're not getting it. Online most of them are communicating with their younger relatives. Yes. Dot Thought. And it seems like one of the answer is it's because it was this thing off line, but there are just importing house communicative context. Wow. But but there's a there's a mismatch there right because to me when I see dot dot dot it means something very different than maybe when they write a dot dot dot. Dot Dot that means like trailing off like a law lack of interest or boredom or maybe maybe you died halfway through the sentencing you because you fell down a bottomless pit. Or something like that, and so it's very rude and weird to right or. Something left unsaid like a yes. Dot Dot dot dot. That's I mean that I'm leaving some sort of reservation here I'm leaving some sort of. Expressing them. Yeah. I'll see you there s three dot dot dot. A. Will you really or are you going to do something to me horrible when you get there? Do you want to meet up tomorrow and you're like I could dot dot dot you're really trying to say actually I'd rather not right and we're that comes from so. There's a linguistic. Principle of analyzing not just what people say but also what they could have said in that context and what they chose not to and looking at sort of what the what the possible alternatives for what someone could have said and what they, what they chose not to say particular context, and in this case, what's relevant is our idea of defaults and our. Idea of what's the sort of default break between a message and for younger people who've been sort of acculturated online, the default break between a message new line or a new message. So you might send several several text a row, and each of those message breaks is a is a new message or you might have some line breaks and that's the sort of default spacer. Your of an Internet native generation because line breaks are really cheap on a screen. and New. Messages are really cheap in terms. Wasn't true in paper right you can't put a dozen line breaks in a post. Postcards. If you're leaving someone to not like a post, it note like a note on the kitchen table note on like a remember people used to leave notes by telephone with like so and so called they want you to call them back. Yeah. We had a little. A little special. CHEF. This is like a chef. I described as a chef. It was like a little noticeboard in the shape of a chef and it had a role of receipt paper on it. So you could have an infinite note on it and I I'm only remember this because my mom just sent it to me send a photo and was like I'm going to throw this out and I was like. I remember it. So don't know never mind throw it away. We don't need this anymore. It was just like it's a relic from the past of this specific thing to write notes down by the telephone. There's two things there. One is that you know people used to write notes on on pieces of scrap piece of paper, a little piece of paper that we're supposed to specifically narrow or smaller. And wind breaks free in the same sort of wind breaks were expensive and so instead of leaving a line break in order to indicate a sort of casual break between thoughts were you don't necessarily want to commit to is this a full sentence I'm GONNA put a period there. I'm going to put a comma there. People would put either a dash or dot dot because the ends are punctuation that kind of split the difference between is this a full sentence or not? They can. They can use were both types. You see this in Poetry Emily Dickenson business in her poetry she has dashes all over the place. You see this these postcards there was some old recipe cards that I found that had like dot dot dot between two steps, the recipe, and it's a way of sort of indicating a casual break between thoughts. Exactly. The way that you are I might use a line break. But in a in a more sort of in more sort of casual way. And that's what this older generation is trying to do when they're putting a dash or dot dot dot, and the thing is, is that for the younger generation that's using a line breaks or message breaks as they sort of default separator that means that the dash dot dot dot has the potential to take on other heads of meaning. And so you start looking around like what else could what could someone with a dot dot dot because they can't mean it's a default message break because we already have one of those. What else could mean and then you start thinking Oh, maybe it's trailing off or maybe it's something left unsaid or it's sort of a pregnant pause or any of these sorts of things you start inferring other type of stuff from it and talk to people who use dot dot by default and they're shocked and horrified this could be expressing. Deep Space. It's like if somebody told you every time you send like entering a new line you're sending this message. You never realize you're like God, no, I just a new message like come on guys. It's just what happens when but either of these norms are totally I'm by themselves. and. They start running into each other as the sort of norm trainwreck. Older folks and I'm not trying to harp on older folks I'm many older folks listen to this podcast. I love you older folks mom if you're listening I love you but I am going to call you out right now because do they just maybe also not pay as much attention to how their language works like I'm like, I am on text all day I'm constantly calibrating for the person talking to, but my mom will just text me text me, Adam all one line call me all on one line and that's such a hard. That's like a red alarm. The alarm went off in the submarine. Your Mom's dying or she's mad at you and mom whereas he's like, Oh, I, just wanted to ask you if I should put this chef notepad on Ebay. Right. Well, that was such an extreme use of that. Is there that kind of mismatch as well? I I don't overstate this because I. Think to some extent. It's very easy to look at another group of people and say you know they must not be thinking about what they're doing because they're not doing what I'm doing and I thinking about it I wouldn't be doing that and you that reductivist discourse a lot we're talking about younger people like do the youths just not know what they're doing and Say Will the old they don't know what they're doing in the same hasn't to say, well, the youth they don't know what they're doing us. It's not like, Oh, I, have the monopoly on being right and everyone else is just not thinking that's. That's a very sort of non non charitable attitude towards everybody who's not like like flair enough. What I will say is that there are older people who told me this that they think that text is sort of fundamentally incapable of conveying these sorts of subtleties or at least that if if it does that's the thing that professional writers do. And that if you as an ordinary person want to convey emotional subtlety bats why you would pick up the phone. and. So this idea that the voice has the advantage over text and being able to communicate emotional subtlety and that you don't need to think hard about how you're communicating and tax because it's. Text. Just isn't capable of that meeting and of course, I think to people who do think the text is fundamentally capable of it. They're there. That means that if you're not thinking about, you're still getting off messages. You, don't think it's strictly speaking an age split I. Think it's age combined with how long you've been on the Internet. Because there are people who are now what you would call older people who have been online since the. Even since the When using computers for a long period of time and they're like, no, I have the old smileys that we used to us. We used to do this on us net. We used to do this. Wherever and been aligned for a long time. Definitely think that Texas, capable having this type of subtlety but people who have are a bit older and also weren't early adopters at the time back in the day when one could be an early adopter whereas these days everyone just kind of gets things at the same time. They. It's not just a question of of age. It's a question of having defined yourself as a non technological person for so long. So if you to speak like a particular people or to talk like a group of people to want to adopt characteristics of a group of people, it means that you have some sort of interest or respect or affection or positive sentiment towards that group of people, and so if you don't have a positive sentiment towards being online at communicating with technology, you also don't have. You don't think of yourself as a tech person even though you've now been using. Computers and so on. For maybe a decade or so at this point or more at this point, the still think of yourself as not really a tech person which means you don't really feel like tech ish features of language are yours to us but you're still using them like the way that you put something you said just a minute ago. Reminded me of a conversation I had like a decade ago with a college friend we're talking about close and he said this friend is like you know. A T shirt and cargo shorts sky you know and he was saying atom like I don't care what other people wear and I don't care what I wear when I'm when I'm dressing I'm not trying to say anything on my trying to communicate anything about myself. I just don't care and I was like well, hold on a second that you are communicating something you're communicating that you don't care I can tell that from the way that you dress like you can't opt out of the system of close saying something about you. Even if you don't understand it the very least you're gonna you're going to communicate is I don't understand. What my clothes are communicating because people are GonNa be like Oh this person is. Dressed in a confusing way and feel like your use of language would be similar right? I think you do have people saying I'm not going to try to adopt the no. The trendy thing with the youths are doing I'm going to communicate like I swallowed the style book and you're, can you still communicating something about yourself that way? Yeah or either going to communicate like you know in this style of using dot to communicate like I'm not a tech person or I'm going to communicate like I'm I refuse to because I'm too. I think I am too good for them or something you're still saying something about yourself. and. I think that there's been an interesting the people that are like the most discomfited by because. I think is great because. I. For All of the other language books. The most is competent are the ones who said, but I communicate like swallowed the AP Scott Style Book I communicate like a very formal style. I had this whole time and you're telling me that this thing that I thought was neutral isn't actually neutral and what it says about me is that I'm tight and I'm like, yes. refused. To, make, Typos in internet context gives you can't possibly let anything go out of your. Of Your hands without. Double triple. You're a definitely communicating that you're uptight and you were maybe a little bit judgy and other people, and if people don't like that that's kind of a reasonable response on their part. You can't do it. It completely depends on the context i. was asked to be more involved in a nonprofit that I was semi involved with, and they asked me to join their fundraising board and stuff like that and one of the things they said to me was like Adam we thought you'd be good at this because your emails are really good when you reply to us, they're like really well written and and I like adopted like a very professional email style with them. Right. But then on my group DM about like basketball. It would be very appropriate to write that way. They'd be like, what is this Weirdo doing in our basketball? Right, and I think that you know this is something that we do in speech all the time we communicate in different ways with different types of people, right this is the fabled code switching I've heard of this. Switching this whole like you know you don't. You don't talk to your dog the thing where you talk to your boss or at least I wish I did. A good ball. Yeah. Then the other way around. Yeah. I WanNa talk to my boss who I talked to my dog. Boss. Who's worked for me? To do do. Some work or you want me to do it don't you? For Walking One on one at the park. Wonderful. So we talk differently with different people and we don't think there's anything weird about this. You know we don't. something. There's something wrong with weird about this. We can talk differently with different people and I think that's also that can also be true for writing especially because we're writing in so many more contexts than people might have written fifty years ago there. Sort of postcard genre but it wasn't as common as the amount of times you can tweet or text somebody. A lot of those would have happened in speech before. So this idea that you know we're writing in different ways and you can write differently in emails than you do in your group chat with your friends or whatever. That's. That's fine. That's that's great. You don't have to what I what I like about what people have. Read because they're like, oh, I was already using Internet slang felt bad that I was doing it and now I, feel okay. But my a like. I. Feel bad about using about using slager. Talking, differently, with different groups of people, it's OK. Now. It's amazing to me how fast language changes over time like I was recently, I forget what the context was but I was noticing how even in the eighties when people wrote letters to each other like business correspondents was so much more formal than today like today business correspondence has like this. You know it's it actually has a little bit of casualness to a lot times people emailing each other within a company right? But in the eighties, people were still writing like you know Mr So and so I read your article of June the twenty eighth with great interest. That kind of thing and like nobody nobody writes that anymore. and. Straight past the office or something feels like it's gone alongside with like Oh you now you have your damn or whatever that you wear to the office you have your like you know your your dress up yoga pants. Or like your your formal t shirts that you went to the office. Are, you wear a tie your the weird at the office like I literally remember wearing a tight to my job college humor one day and feeling so uncomfortable and awkward. Getting made fun of. Like what am I doing this? Well, it's but it's still a type of uniform and it's still a type of expectation, right? Yes. If you address someone your email to somebody dear, sir, I hope this letter finds you in good health you know. Like I I read with interest your article of May think like who the heck is this guy why is he so horrible? It's just like wearing a tie becomes a more March behavior. There's still a through. You know there's It doesn't. It doesn't mean that the reason to sort of Silla next Senate expectations just because those expectations have shifted. I. It's just a different set of norms like something I. Think about a lot is like I follow a lot of journalists on twitter and journalists are like out of every profession like the most on twitter and there's a certain sort of accepted use among them of like twitter language and like joke making that like certainly wouldn't have existed in the eighties right? Like you wouldn't have had all these sarcastic journalists like publicly writing snippets in the eighties. Okay. which was something that I was really interested in Canada when I was researching because Internet was. This genre of Xerox Lower and facts lower oh. Oh, this is so I don't know what this is, but I'm so excited to hear about it. Sounds like my shit right here. Right. So you may have seen similarly as from like maybe your parents or something like that, and this was people would repeatedly photocopy or facts to each other other offices, things like political cartoons like jokes running jokes. Various types of just like cartoons in general an often sort of commentaries on office like often be like tacked up on top of the above the photocopier. Like, here's this. Here's this funny joke. I found this funny cartoon by friends, sent it to me who works at this other. Send it to me. Now I'm going to photocopy it. I'm going to share it with like a twenty of my buddies. Yours this here's the thing that's really funny. I. kind of things like you know. So and so arrives at the parole. A lawyer arrives at the pearly gates and says, well, those kind of stock jokes street jokes is what we Kalman comedy those are means. means. I can't believe I never lear-. Smack myself in the head. I can't believe I never made that connection that memes are street jokes and they're because they're ten platic like immediately. A pearly gates joke or you have a you know like a lawyer and a doctor and whatever walked into a bar joke like you have the walk into a bar jokey of Professions Joe, you have some that are not particularly sensitive blonde jokes and all these sorts of. Racial stereotype jokes which are terrible. They're still templates though and it's not that means don't also sometimes do that. Yeah. It's really funny. I remember talking to my girlfriend. Lisa while ago because I was I was frustrated by his twitter sucks. It's just people repeating the same template jokes over and over again you know that ain't if it chief just like that over and over again. And then she was like, yeah, exit the cool thing is the best people make a new one and then everyone else copies it, and that's The being like the fashion influence not influence or let's be like being of the fashion designer of sentences. Right where you come up with a new trend. Were repeating simplistic jokes before we call. Yeah right like you know you. Yes. You may be make a new a lot of people like they'd retail. My grandfather always used to have one of those like page a day joke calendars. The page a day calendars. And that they would have these lake jokes that were like kind original kind of not just like mostly extremely plagiarized from who knows where because like you're right. And he likes save the best ones and like share them with us when we would visit him. Like very this feels like having having a toddler in the early twenty tens of your. Best memes. So yeah, I mean appreciate them well, and that's exactly the same behavior before social media in two thousand and five. I was more online than most of my friends and I had a folder on my hard drive where I saved all my favorite memes, images and videos when friends would come to my dorm room, I would show them like a slide show of memes that I had collected from parts of the Internet. They didn't know about and then like that. Of course, just just like you know that was completely obviated by read it and everything else. There's no reason to do this anymore. Like these chain email forwards. Yeah. Like you remember forwarding emails here. Here's a bunch of jokes about like things that like funny things that kids have said or something like this thing I. Remember there was the dancing Beeney won the dancing beanie gift or like there was like a penguin that pushed another penguin into a water into the water gifts. and. People would email. And the like. So and so would be like your friend who always found the funny emails and like sent you them and so and so we our friend who didn't send you very good sunny emails. Like this is the kind of social currency of like we're going forward these around one of them. That I encountered in back when email forwards were were cool like late nineties early, two thousands. Was So it's this one that's like in lock. German and it's about a computer and it's called blinking lights and it's like you know. This is sort of very bad take German like you must. Lincoln lights don't this is fancy machine don't touch it but it's it's bad. German. Clearly, designed to be legible for English speakers and when I was writing because, Internet I was like wait a second why I wonder where this came from how how we trace it back. and. This has been traced back to four two. Wow. It's been passing around and then made the jump eventually somebody typed it up probably several people typed it up this it traces back to this. There was this sort of mock. German. Style but hung in allied machine shops ya world. War. Where of course, they're mocking the Germans because like they have this, you know obviously at me relationship with them. And you know like blinking lights and fancy machinery doesn't have to be a computer that can be like earlier kinds of fancy machinery as well. The Telegraph or something. And so there's this sort of connection. Yeah. Of One of the one of the examples sites lot cited a lot in the literature because of course, there's a mean literature. Every. Every cool online Grad student's thesis right now is on me M- literature as. Literature. So, one of the examples cited a lot in the meantime literature is till Roy was here. A handwritten sort of chalk name. That people would people draw this face with the nose over the wall and right Kilroy was here and that was the thing that you did kind of like. Now if someone if you see the number sixty nine, you say nice and you just say that. You would just write. The Kilroy was here thing like Oh there's a wall and minute right that on it And But I think this the the rate of change of memes in this or jokes in this early sort of Proto space is slower because the rate of communication itself is slower. Like on twitter, you can have a mean that becomes in for like one day. I think we're recording this on the same week as the one year anniversary of the thirty to fifty feral hogs name. Over Twitter Rule Day yeah. Yeah Yeah. Absolutely, and then people don't even try to say at the next day people do what the fuck are. You do and bring around the feral hogs to my timeline odd Friday fuck you that yesterday idiot. What's Like I remember. I remember this is a number of years ago when you remember when the dress took over. For everyone remembers that. I had happened to be taking a nap. And I woke up. Little previous two hours or whatever I back online. The previously two hours suddenly everything was about this dress. It will intense I was hosting a live show live comedy show that day and me and my co host. Emily. Heller. Put up a we. Okay. Let's talk about the dress in the show. So everyone we want to talk about this and then we put up a screen shot of the dress and the whole audience started screaming once they all went. God. Just. It was so funny. About it and it would have happened the next day the next day would have been bored of it yeah. I don't think you can this kind of speed with the Hillary was here mean right or even speed with you want to say early location names like when you go back and look at the early locate means there are like a handful of them that are canonical Lope at means and they're the same want everyone knows everyone knows I can has cheeseburger everyone knows I need you cookie but I eat it. And they they lasted for years. That's so long. Yeah Yeah. Touching there were so few of them. So few People Headley graphics editing capability to make new. That's a really good but I never thought about that your law cats. Lasted for like five years or so and now like. If you go to like a meam instagram account nothing last that long it's just like the Internet screaming insanity like constant chaos and change some things do come back when they get matched up with other things, right? Like the the the nobody meam. The kind of nobody joke template where you have like nobody colon blank and then you know I say something you know nobody asked for. That's been just percolating along kind of under the radar and it gets brought back when something new happens. And so you can but it gets kinda brought back in and remixed with stuff. So some of sometimes like the you know like the faster or something rises faster, it descends as well but sometimes an simmer away in the background for quite a long time as well. The. BEGALA gallic it's. Interesting. For me thinking about what? The because we have even compared to. Ten years ago before if you compare this before social media enabled things to spread as quickly you're relying on like, okay. You know someone has to forward me email so that I can see and then after four when it to someone else whereas you can, you can disseminate things faster you have like big. Big. meam accounts whether it's on twitter or instagram or whatever buzzfeed picks it up or something MAC in December to much faster audience. And make me. Take off very quickly and therefore like subside very quickly. The interesting thing I think about memes and like where they're going is the the so there's also been a shift in the last five years or so from. Interior Monologue captioning names to object labeling means. These terms that no, you're looking. Good. Internal Monologue okay. Break breakdown I like us down. So Interior Monologue captioning means a lot of them are animals but they're not necessarily the the text on the means if you think of him as an image. All images. But like we think of America's image for a SEC. There's the text on the Nin represents the interior monologue of the character in the me. I can't have cheeseburger. Has She's what the cat is saying or the or the Shiba inu is like such something wow. That's implicitly what the dog is saying. The same thing, entire advice animals on our. That's implicitly what the animal in the advice animal is saying. And then you get this swift and a one of the early well-known innings in the in this in a switch is the distracted boyfriend mean. So the distractive boyfriend is not saying anything rice boyfriend is labeled in. Ship yes girlfriend and the other girl he's looking after yes, and so there's this switch from that. The the entities in the image of the meam are implicitly talking to the entities being labeled the meam as as a metaphor or analogy for a different relationship where we have a meme that means a relationship between three things thing a is more interested in be when it should be interested in things see, and then you can apply that to any real world situation, which is a lot more complex of an idea than just a cat saying I can't cheeseburger where the joke is. Cats want cheeseburgers. Well, it's a, it's a complex idea, but it also relies it's more versus highly adaptable to. Different Cultures because there isn't just one mean culture now like there may have been disputed. There may have been some point a single UNITARIAN mean culture there isn't now we Say That something that we used to do on the College Humor Writers Slack to amuse ourselves was find hyper-specific memes from subcultures that we didn't understand and share them with each other because it would be like. That feeling well, and you're taking the bar exam in Alabama and you're. Just like these really long or about like try like memes that triathletes would make to each other about their training schedules and share on facebook accounts, and they're always fascinating to look at because you're gonNA recognize it as being a medium but you have no idea what the fuck experience it's talking about there. There have been linguistics. Specific Niche means since at least twenty. Twenty twelve twenty eleven was when I started being aware first of linguistic suspicious like linguistics. Specific. But like that was mostly because I knew enough. Linguis- at that point that I was exposed to them. Maybe they were around earlier as well like maybe they were linguistics version of Loci that I, just didn't see. But. So there's there's there's a certain amount of Jim that's been around for a while. But the. Oh what's interesting about the optic labeling style starts out as an image mean thing you have the destroy gets labeled or you have is this a butterfly or is this? Is this a pigeon when it's actually a butterfly the relationship of three things it's like a person asking an an entity and then a question that's bad. The. But you also get this is a kind of mean that you see a lot on Tiktok these days where you have the been taxed the thing that was the picture in an idiot. He's the audio track. Yeah, and then the person who's in the picture. Is. Often labeling themselves or characterizing themselves as different entities. Yeah. So maybe the reporting on different hats or they're putting on different wigs there putting on makeup and various things in there being you know like me and then my chemistry teacher. Like does this thing to me whatever? Or they're putting on like sometimes they're holding up captions like written on paper. So they'll be like study this is a lot of like you can tell when it's like kids studying for their AP history exam season. Be like. America the British low like. Other making me I'm about what they're learning in school. How wholesome is that you know? That it's really wholesome. And Ohio, does longer hold up a piece of paper or they'll rights that taxed on the image at south with. Various? Video editing tools that you can use. And but the idea that the common thread that the mean templates based on the this audio file rather than it's this image and then you add more text on top of the image. That's one of the interesting things that I think tech talk, it's done to the means. Okay We gotta take a break every time I about take a break. You say something fascinating to to, and we go back and forth, and now my producers going to be mad or at least ad sales are gonna be mad because we got to take a break listeners ads but we're going to be right back with more Gretchen McCulloch I have a huge question for you after this. So stick around right back with more Gretchen McCulloch. There are so many questions that run through your mind when you're looking for a new place, is it close to pizza? Will my neighbors be Weirdos should I take my old couch with me or is it time to finally say goodbye it is getting a little musty dusty. These are all great questions but the one question apartments dot com make sure you don't have to ask is whether you've found the right place because with more listings than. 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Apologize if this is a little bit like spacey like big picture like where smoking weed during Grad school question right but. I think a lot about you know there's been so much change in. Human. Society not just the society but like the way humans as a species operate in the last ten thousand years, right if you look at human history we were you know basically pretty advanced apes for like millions of years right and then around you know you know I'm not a historical anthropologist. So it's the exact date, but you know things started accelerating right like the amount of change that's happened in humanity in the last couple of thousand years is much greater than was what was happening before and it looks like that comes along with the development of language development of culture and that you started having this. Process of cultural evolution right that that starts happening in our minds as opposed to just like instead of just genetic changes you have cultural changes happening as well and they start iterating on each other and creating these feedback loops you're describing where like okay. Now, linguistics are the way we use language is changing faster and faster because of the Internet starts to make me think well as that sort of process like is that is fundamentally speeding up about the way that humanity on earth I told you. It was a really smoking weed on the porch during Grad school question but no, there's there's three different things there to unpack. One is is that language is is actually very old language as a as a human capacity whether spoken language or sign language. He's really and as far. We don't know exactly how old because unfortunately like sound waves and hand signs don't leave fossils. Notice. The. So we don't know whether it's more like fifty thousand or more like two, hundred, thousand. That's approximately a date range for how languages. Writing is much newer. Technology Human capacity writing is a technology. Technology like we've never encountered a human society that doesn't have language. And they're all really complex. There are about seven thousand languages that linguists have catalogs these days they're all really complex. They're all really interesting. They're all fully-fledged languages. By whatever metric you want to define a language. Is Different because writing as technology and because it's acknowledging, it can be transmitted. bossed, it can be adapted it can be a break. Can Be saved it can be saved and it can be you know so and writing you can it's much easier. Also track how writing spreads because of course, it makes physical records in many cases if you're reading on would it might not last you Burrell. Because Rawson zone the writing on stone. Great. So So biting is recent to that writing lets you do is it gets you. On the one hand it gives you a more durable way of communicating with the past and with the future. Yeah. Because communicating people in here and now is still fairly easy but communicating whether that's with your past self because you're writing yourself a note to remind yourself next to do something with communicating with the state state tax collectors be like, yes. I've paid taxes here is the goat that I gave you or whatever writing gives you this ability to communicate across displacements in time and disease in space. And that's one of the reasons why In many cases, you know societies that encounter writing they're like Oh. Yeah. That sounds like a cool idea. Let's borough that for us but it sort of spreads gradually this sort of decisions and there are also places where you know like the Romans were really keen on writing, and then you know after the Roman Empire collapsed, there was a lot less literacy. There were still some letters but there was there was less literacy overall the. Or people were learning Latin just to kind of gain access to the writing technology because the writing technology happened to primarily in Latin which you can think of in the modern ages like people learning English to gain access to. Communications Technologies Yeah. Because that was what that was, what all the books were written in. That was like what the that was the the medium of the written technology was all in. Latin at the time, right I mean Y Y learn Latin to write old English because there wasn't much there to read an old English you WanNa learn Latin, you can. Caesar something. Or? Yeah. The same thing if you want to if you WanNa code these days, a lot of programming languages are based off of English. There's no intrinsic reason why they have to be based off English like you know if you have a command for bold italic or something why that has to be based off English NOMEX, right? Rather than it could be it could be based on Russia and it could be based on Japanese. It could be based on language there are few. Programming, languages that are based off other human languages. But this vast majority of them are based off English and I never thought of that. Yeah they're all saying him. They're all saying Goto line ten. Well, that's very dated code but yeah, they're saying ten or like if they're not saying went in yeah they're not saying the Mandarin. Mandarin has words for if I assume. That word. Becomes this sort of. Like Oh, like it's really easy if you're an English speaker to be like Oh yeah. Here's of course you're going to have like a body text and a header. Because these are words recognize even if they're using the specialize sort of, but like imagine, this is even a scripture familiar with. A new alphabet and then you have to learn this pneumonic. wrote an article. About programming languages being based English for wired. And it's like the one that I got the most both positive. Comments. Had A lot of people being like yes. Thanks for saying it. You know this is. This is the thing especially for children learning how to Code and something and then I also people being like well, they should just certainly Murrah. Well Yeah of course, those people was just looking for an article to write that in response to. English, they're just people driving around. America looking at people yell learn English at. But yeah, it's it's very interesting but you can when you make a lot and analogy because it seems strange to us as English speakers in the two thousand say to me like why was everyone so keen on learning Latin for so long And it was because it was this but it's the same reason that people these days are keen on learning English because it gives you access to this particular type of international life. Global discourse gives you access to this particular type of technology learn to code. Of The Middle Ages road reason because we think people should have access to this in their native languages as well. Yeah. A reason why people people were so keen on learning Latin for so long. But just to go back to writing writing being technology. Yes. So And I'm not a historian. This is this is not a this is not me being a historian I one of the hypothesis that I like and I got this from the story in Ada Palmer who's also Scifi writer. Is this idea that as the speed of communication increases? That that's what makes change happen faster seem to happen pastors like the faster you if it takes a letter three months to arrive from one corner of the Roman to another. Yeah. Then the speed of change of things that can change is is constrained by that three months of like how fast can a person with a horse? Transmit night or a person in a boat translate that letter. Assuming they even have a letter writing is a technology which lets them send the exact message. The person wanted to otherwise you're sending a message on your telling this message or like memorize the message that I wanNA send you. Memorize this message I want us and they had memory techniques for a lot of these things. and. Then arrive at this place three months later and recite you're the message that I wanted to send. The message, the other person wants to. Come back three months later. So you can have changed potentially happening faster when people are able to communicate with each other faster. About. Change in changing the ways that people are using language or or changes in how the language develops Jj will change in anything but especially the sort of broader reaching societal change. So you know like if you want to say changes in fashion, right so if you WANNA know how are the coup people dressing over there? You need to find out how what they're doing I in order for you to do it right If you don't know how people addressing over in Paris or whatever you can't bend mimic them if you only find out how they've been dressing in Paris three years later, your fashion over three years. Sierra. So so when you're watch, I just watched a whole lot of Jane austen movies and they're always going like the new fashion in Paris is hats and they just found out because someone just came from Paris to the little London country town that they're all living in English country town. And so that means that that puts a limit on the rate of speed at which fashion changes but today where we're all doing it on instagram and you just. Put It on Instagram and I'm like Oh hey, look what they're doing in Paris right. So if I wanted to I can I can be aware of what people are doing in that sense and even if you think about mean diffusion like we were talking about with chain emails like if the fastest way to for me to find out like, Hey, there's this cool. GIF is for like someone who I happen to know personally to email it to me. Yes they can email instantly the fact that I can choose. Oh, here's this. Here's this funny person who posts a lot of cool gifts can follow them on on social media. Somewhere I can find out about the cool gifts at source rather than wait for them to arrive like three email chains later even though the technological communication how instantly the it's still has to go through people. Somehow, how does how does something become viral? It goes through people somehow. So, this actually affects like how fast fashion might change like the faster that communication happens then fascist themselves change faster in theory epa there are other things that slow things down, right. So there are also things like fashion supply lines and how fast the fashion industry like plans it season events you know how fast can your manufacturers copy this other thing right? You know how fast can they gear up to make? You're still GONNA be looking at months or sometimes longer for for how how fast can anything happen? It's still constrained by like Adams in the real world. The other thing though is that technology because of communications technology and this is true of writing as technology and also of The the Internet like. Computers and so on. He's that it can also be a force for conservatives in the other direction because you have the records of what people were doing, and if you're the kind of person who doesn't like change against Ammo to say, let's not actually change it. No, you have. For example, like after the Empire Falls, you have Latin evolve into the modern romance languages, French and Spanish and Italian and so on. Right and that's happening that change is happening because change is a constant never appeared when there's like, oh, well, there's no change now. Is Changing just like if you're if you're trying to stop it from changing, it's you're a fool's errand. Well, it's like the same thing. Let me thing right like you can't stop a river from eroding the banks a little bit. Stopped like like as a force in the universe, you can't stop change for like humans grow up. You know this is this is the thing that happens you can't stop your kids from growing up. So Be So you can. You can have the ability to look back and say, Oh, here's what people were doing back in this generation. I'm going to I'm going to learn these. I'M GONNA. Learn this word that was older I'm going to keep remembering this word that was older. One Hand you have like Latin splitting off into the romance languages cool. So that's changed. It was happening organically especially because they weren't communicating with each other anymore as much and so they were able to develop these more distinct local dialects. which but also, they're able to look back sort of classical Latin and keep looking back to it and keep drawing things from there and keep borrowing things from there. To reverse the courses, some these changes. So some cases people added in silent letters because that letter had been bear in Latin. so like the English were debt, for example. From, a French word which was also debt and it was spelled D. E. T. T. at the time. That seems more appropriate. Seems more reasonable, right? Yes and then some people looked at Latin and they're like Oh word originally comes from Latin Debbie Tomb were they pronounced that be. In the. Internet. Sense can see technology also makes us more conservative because of things like spell check. Yes spell check the little I use it I, use I, keep it off all the time. I don't ever want spellcheck looking at what I'm saying having a little algorithm looking over my shoulder like not understanding the things I'm writing. Terrible. Sometimes I. Use spell check especially on your phone it makes you out. You can type faster when it's breaking the words but the same time Oh. Yeah that's autocorrect that's different autocorrect. Okay. I don't like the Little Red Line. I hate that but all of these autocorrect spell check predictive tax, all of them are training like they're helping us right words the way that they previously been written. Yeah and sometimes that's like you type a new word you types of John Hillary's spelling and then spell check like thinks that you want to use it all the time like my phone. Now things I always wondered actually with a capital a because I've done that like sarcastic actually good at you know sleeping is actually good like one too many times and now it's like Would you always to be sarcastic with your actually so them like no no no. Not all the time. But the general principle of things. So if we're talking about like the suckling be in debt, which like if we a more decentralised writing system, we could one day stop writing bad silent be there's no reason for. Yeah Huzzah our phones are. Helping us. Quote Unquote helping you know, right. In this that as previously been written. It reinforces all of these sort of weird fossilized spellings arrived one day and it makes it harder to change things as quickly because you have the phone like helping you. With respect. We have a four sort of pulling us back from the big changes that we might otherwise make or keeping us on the straight and narrow like sort of keeping things mainstream a little bit. So I'm curious what you think about. The idea of correcting each other right or or or language saying this is this is i. feel like the first question linguists get asked a lot of times prescriptivism and descriptive ISM and this sort of debate. I. Remember I. I didn't interview with anchors and cursing. She she's wonderful. She was on my older podcast Adam Ruins everything podcast and on the show, and she used this great example of I've been corrected my whole life for saying you know how you doing. I'm good instead of I'm well. I'm well, like my friends in college would say this to me and she was like, that's wrong because I'm good. Means something different than I'm well, right like I'm good music I'm I'm good. I'm good like these are good with me. As opposed to like I am in good health. has a different meaning and so I feel like we often have this rejection of I. Love that argument right? Because I'm like, yes, fuck all those people who tell you how to speak right? Who say that this is how the English language works. You really just be describing how people use it in practice and allowing it to change because that's Natural Da da right. But is it also the case that these forces keeping us on the straight narrow? Are. Helping US communicate sort of standardizing our language a little bit or how do you view that as someone who like is is exploring the wilds of Internet language or languages it's most chaotic. Anchors and actually it's funny that you brought her up because she makes us argument in her book fixing English. About how she asked a bunch of her colleagues who were English for vessels on weird you think Microsoft word gets the words that are in its spell check. like what? What, what does he think? It's pulling from where did he get his ideas of what good grammar or bad grammar? What is word of what is in the word and they were like? I've never really thought about that and you know we think professors who question words for a living haven't thought about it. What's the rest of us have like where? Where are the things coming from? and. So anything you know the idea that we should be looking at language how it actually is a not trying to make people conform to some sort of abstract idea correct of correctness. This is really the least controversial idea linguistics. Radio interviews and be like, Wow, what an interesting bold idea. You're a bad thing and I'm like, no, no no I. Don't think you understand. This is this is like the worst luxury, of Lingua, one type content but that's among linguists not among English teachers right. Not among like grade school and primary. School teachers who are very much I think a lot of people have had the experience of being hovered over with a ruler while their writings I know what you wrote wrong. Right I, it is definitely still very common in education and a lot of people internalize that and they internalize that there's somehow a better person because they're very persnickety about language and I think that there has been a trend away from that. Especially a lot of people saying look you know maybe I'm GonNa do this one thing in in essays they're on a resume or something what I'm GonNa do this other thing with my friends and that's fine. And I think it's You know. There's there are a lot of. A. Lot of things going on there going on there and I think this idea like it's not necessary to correct other people if you go around correcting other people when they haven't asked for it. That makes you it knowing person? Bad person when you do that because it doesn't fucking matter. Sized people don't like you because you're actually just being an asshole. That's going up to someone with a close metaphor. Again, it's like going up to someone and saying your clothes don't match. Your shirt like who asked you? If. I bring you fashion consultant at I'm like. All right. Like tell me what I should be wearing this fancy event I want your opinion then you give me. If, I don't ask what you think of my closer even if I if I bring a friend of this store or something and I'm like, Hey, you know what do you think about the church and I buy it I've asked you for your opinion, but don't to random people on the street me like I hate your shirt. Yeah. And as and as a corollary to that, some people don't say that. To individuals but they'll just complained about I hate when people use the wrong form of you're they say your instead of you're like this is really bothering you like all day long like. What the fuck they man like having a roundabout jogging Jim Jacobs ever do to you. Need to have a random oh, it's you don't have get. Your opinion. But why are you wasting your breath talking about us? Why like other people want to wear them like it's fine. You don't have to wear them. Other thing is is that there's Like link also need to exist as people in the world. So as academics, we can say, Hey, we want to analyze everything. Let's just how everything works but existing people in the world, the the ethical standard that I like to think about for me is am I using this form of language to try to connect with people to try to like be friends with people kind of people be polite to people or am I trying to use this to be an like sanctimonious and annoying and like my moral superiority over people? So if you're going around with a red pen and Apostrophe, you're using that because you're trying to prove your superiority over people. Around try to use people's correct pronouns that's because you're trying to connect with them and be polite to them and be nice to them. That's a I'm trying to prove intellectual superiority that's I want to respect people. You know there's a there's a question of like, why why are you doing this? Are You doing this? Because you're trying to be a a decent human to other people or you doing this because you're trying to make yourself feel better and like. Put other people down and sewing thread laying like, oh, well, this is wrong because we didn't use to do it this way. What is that a posture favorite unto you but like not using slurs sounds like. That is in some respect also prescriptive but that's prescriptive in their favor of like being respectful to people which I think is good. Yeah. I think about crossword puzzles I really liked doing crossword puzzles and crossword puzzles like rely on a certain shared understanding of how language works of like what words mean what and like you know like I'll do a crossword puzzle and be like. You know when I read the clue, it limits the number of answers that could go in because I'm like, no they wouldn't use that word that way in that clue. So the answer's probably this right And so you need a certain amount of you know. Guidelines or or guard rails on the side of the road in order to make the puzzle possible. But at the same time, it's a format that's fundamentally about playing with language about finding new uses for language and the best crossword puzzles or the ones that like. Radically introduced new words new. New Forms of speech and include Internet speech and that sort of thing as the languages actually spoken. So it feels like there's a healthy. Yes. We need a common frame of reference, but then we're using that in order to be expressive and have fun. That's what the common frame of reference is there in the first place for. Like. If you think about this point of English as a Lingua, Franca you know a lot of people learn English as a second language to communicate with sort of the broader world of English speakers whether that's the first or second language, and there are ways in which people who are English native speakers are some of the worst at this because we talked to. Pickling Reuse too many idioms that are obscure Carbonari words, and in some cases, it's easier for you for people who both speak English a second language to communicate with each other Bennett. It is when you have a native English speaker going in and being like, Oh yeah. I like here are all these things that you didn't notice this sort of level of communication. So Are. You actually trying to accomplish communication because communications about meeting somebody where they are about equal or everybody involved in the situation trying to find some sort of common ground and not like saying well, the way I do things is objectively right and so you need to be doing this and all of the common ground is my common ground. So I think adapting the way we talk to different context you know there are. There are certain idioms I know our Canadian. That I'm like okay. Well, I'm not going to use this with Americans because they don't understand you can have this sort of sense of awareness of what am I doing that might not be understood internationally. What am I doing that? I'm deliberately trying to. Index I'm more Canadian entity in this context. So but it's it requires the sort of awareness of other people. But that doesn't mean that you know this the previous thing that we thought of as sort of an unmarked default. That get critical creative, very particular set of people that didn't just like appear right. Where where is that default? who creates it and you know how can you sort of both validate? All of the ways of talking while also trying to have people somehow meet in the middle or meet at a place where they can understand it goes back to this question of like will why learn Latin because it gives you this access to this year. This. Goes back to what you were saying about how people respond to your book and they say, Oh, I thought I was speaking the default and you're saying I'm actually communicating where this kind of uptight and I certainly feel that I speak in the default and by the way this is like. Or that's what I felt throughout most of my life and this is. Really emblematic of white culture in America is like the belief that no, this is the default. What everyone else does is weird. But what you're putting out is that like no, these are all just different contexts in different frameworks and their value neutral. They're all they all exist, and if you are privileging one over the other and saying, no, this is this one is. The. Neutral and is the right way and everything else is weird. You're you're actually making an error because you're gonNA fail to communicate with people in the proper context I think about like what you were saying with with foreign sorry with Second Language Speakers and I've noticed myself sometimes when I'm speaking to someone with English as a second language all changed the way I speak. In a way that like I'll just use simpler syntax and stuff like that and that's me I used to think. Yeah, that's that's me like community like making an effort to communicate more clearly. Yeah and I think it's like there's there are a lot of people are very self conscious about like if I if I change the way that I talk with people does that mean that I'm like parenting or that ZANU making fun of them and you don't want to end up so far that you're. I almost said that was like my concern is like Oh. Am I doing am I doing like voice here that I shouldn't be doing but I think you know. So much of this. So context specific. Louis like to say that everybody has an accent. And it's like, Oh, some people those people have accents and people whose kit talking. Majoritarian way we quote unquote don't have accents. Had nothing else you have an American accent we to. British person they like no, you have an American accent but the. Everybody has an accent everybody has A. Different and the question. The question is you know at a societal level, we've chosen to privilege actions over others. But that doesn't mean that there's an intrinsic feature like nobody had a beauty contest accents of English. Shoe to find them, there's a really interesting study actually. They looked at they had a variety of accidents in Britain because of course, there are lots of British accents. And they have different people in in people. In Britain, believe different things about them. You had. They've different sorts of associations, but those associations don't always crossed the Atlantic. So they had a bunch of British accents. They played them for Americans and they asked Americans to rate them on various qualities, pleasantness and attractiveness, and you know how cool of an accent this is and the Americans found the Birmingham accent like the best be rated on one's highly, and the interesting about this is if you say the British Milling Watch because. The Burmese accent is specifically stigmatized. Yeah. But the Americans who came in without knowledge of the particular social features that were assigned to this access like this accents great. It's Really. Liked this one. This is the best of British accents. So none of these features are intrinsic to like the continents and the vowels and the intonation and all of these like like granular linguistic features that you're producing. They're all imposed from society like Jag ings are morally neutral. Yeah. Like it's just who since the kind of person who wears diggings or who wears Glasses who wears any of the Cool jeans or non cool jeans or whatever. You don't hate jogging you hate young women. COMES DOWN TO. Women, you don't hate vocal fry also hit. Yeah. I mean everybody hates young women and it's very odd. They're everyone's making that very clear. Like the. Earl and it's it's it's this like weird shawny coincidence except it's completely nautical incidents that like all of the language versions that people that people dislike also happen to align with all of the various groups society that people dislike. Like people dislike African Americans people racist like Oh. No. Now, they're going to stigmatize African mcnicol start coincidence. It's the same thing. Yeah. It's like entirely the. The social value of the way of speaking that that people are putting onto the way of speaking rather than. Some high minded concern about linguistics or something like that because the. We'll tell you there's nothing there. There's here all these interesting features, every every dialect, every language, every accent has its own interesting features. And you can find somebody who's studied can be like, okay. Here's the interesting thing that this one does. None of them are wrong and again I I. I want couple that with I think it's important to respect people if they want to be called something called them that they don't Wanna be called something don't call them that but that's different from lake this. This version of language is just objectively better or it's good English or standard. You know none of none of that is even linguistically defined because it's not only. How To bring in for a landing here, I could talk to you for thousand years. On cast, you can listen to me anytime you want. Oh, please do and it is called Lithuania Sousa yes I'm GonNa Start Listen this fucking podcast I mean I I'm sorry that I haven't listened to it so far is wonderful. So, let me let me as the sort of linguistics. I never studied any linguistics, but my peripheral understanding of it from other things that I studied was a lot of like you know what is the structure of language in the human mind and what are the sort of rules that we can intuit about where language comes from and and these sort of much more. Psychological. Explorations of language and what you're describing a lot of the work that you've been describing very almost sociology. You're talking about the way that people communicate on the Internet, what they want to their choice that they make in language like the way that they use the line bricks instances like it sounds like half sociology to me, and so I wonder are. There is both psycholinguistics and linguistics. All right. Okay. So thank you for schooling me on very elementary part of the field. So I was just asking about the difference between those two extremely broad sub fields of linguistics. Exactly. But it's linguistics really exciting for me because it kind of touches everything. There are so many sub fields in there are so many different things that it can talk to and so like it's cool. But there is both a psycholinguistics that looks at the sort of brain capacity for language and also the socio linguistics that looks at the. Society level and also things that look at you know the sounds of language or the structure of. Sentences and this these types of things like there are all these different things and I think it's it's fun to take this on broad tent approach to linguistics and say, how can we understand how language works whether that's Internet linguistics or whether that's in some of these areas which are also interesting. Yes. So what I what I was wondering is the you know I feel like. You're part of the field must be incredibly exciting because there's this incredible volume now of written speech and recorded speech that's like orders of magnitude greater than anything that would have existed. You know a couple of decades ago and you're able to observe it I'm wondering if that's changing linguistics as a field at all or or if it's shedding any light on older debates right about. That in psycholinguistics a word I just learned. I mean one thing that I think is interesting is just sort of general you know. Both. Like there's there's so much language that exists in searchable form now, which didn't. Previously until you're able to do richer what they call corpus linguistics where you look at large corporate data and you can find out all sorts of interesting things from from Corpus linguistics. And? You know looking at things like, okay. How can we do better computer models of language? She has computational linguistics. And we find better computer models which might tell us something about what is a needed for humans in terms of coming up with with language or how can we train your phone to talk back to you more and thereby meaty find out some things about the structure of language itself. So I think a lot of areas of linguistics being touched by by technology in some sense and some of. That is like specifically how we talk online, which is the kind of bit that I'm interested in but there's also the sort of like. Well, you know, can we computers to do some stuff for us? You know or and or can we get computers too when it comes to trying to make a resource available in under underrepresented languages? So some languages don't even have a dictionary not even like. English has many dictionaries. We have Oxford. Merriam. Webster in these types of things someone who just haven't had a dictionary made for them at all and so. Technology to even make a dictionary or to make audio recordings in in different languages and stuff like that like Ol- ollery linguistics into getting touched by. Increased advances in audio processing, there's a whole area linguistics. Called Gesture Studies, which looks at how we. Obviously. Of. With several of the wink about gesture because my co host is a gesture linguists. And including video on where you can actually see the gestures and we. Because one of the analogies Thilo to make it that people are using gestures in a similar way to how we're using EMOJI in terms of how they combine with the words you're saying and the NEAT thing about gesture studies which has had a tremendous increase in how much it's been studied in the past couple. Probably Five. So decades and you look at that and you think that's when video recording him in because it became so much easier to record gestures and Paul's them and play them back and relieved that to find grange granular. Once, we had even things like the tape you had some sort of tape to do that, and of course, it's easier to do that now. I know some sign language linguists that are working with youtube videos of people signing because you have you have access back on of data as a as a corpus as well. So the Internet is transforming various areas of linguistics partly because it's this explosion of language data and how we can process it and what we can do with it, which touches on various aspects of how we do language. Yeah I mean even like Ai Text Generation, right? Like, GPK three. The what it is out pudding now, I just saw headline didn't in the article that a GP three generated piece of text made to the top of Hacker News, which is like a red type. Site like fooled the user base of that site into like up voting this piece of AI generated texts, and that is like, wow, what a door to open to like what the fuck does that mean. And in some respects. This is where I think knowledgeably works also really useful because. Like thinking about things like the turing test like a turing test for you have, you have you created a machine that can. Fool somebody on the other end of the chat bots thinking that there's actually human at the other end. And that's a linguistic test. The test also kind of knowledge of the world and you have to say things that don't totally not make sense, but it is ultimately sort of linguistic test and the idea. Do we want our phones to talk back to us or to communicate with natural language. If you want some PD to generate the sort of language, it's interesting to have this understanding of language from me perspective of like, what's what's been going on there? We also did an interview on link with John Shane who does these really fun a weird robot. Ai Experiments. So she tries to get robots generate like ice cream flavors and stuff like this, and they're all really really weird and funny sort of figure out the. Problems with actually. Neural. Network generated episode of the podcast will reset in the transcripts of all of our previous episodes. then. We head it spit out like dialogues between me and my co host being like here's what's going on and then we read the best dialogues for like, what is the what does the machine generated and the thing is, is like that we were using too because GP. Three didn't exist yet. The thing is GP to was able to figure stuff out like it was able to figure out that like like Sean I take turns talking it was able to you're the sort of general tone of the podcast, which is very enthusiastic and. Positive. It began a lot of our sentences like, yeah, and which is something that we do. It's linguistics was very, very bad. Yeah. I'm not really worried about my job being taken by robots time soon because he would little. Words about linguistics very false. J. Let me just say gt three is like a huge asset over gbd's to in terms of like how what it spits out but the other thing that like always underrated I think about those. Language generation tools all this. We trained an AI to write a seinfeld episode, Yada Yada kind of thing all of those sorts of things are they had an ai spit out a bunch of text and then human selected the best text and combined in every single case it's not the raw output. It's someone who's basically doing magnetic poetry and then saying look at the poem, my fridge wrote. In Reality No, you wrote the poem you used a tool to write something and the comedy of it is US imagining that a computer dude all by itself but in reality you selected the funniest bits. which as a comedy writer always bothered me that people are acting like humans aren't creating this comedy. Yes. Like we performed the best bits and then we also released a document. That's just like a hundred pages of all of the stuff that generates zine bow. weirdly raw output in. Even that is somewhat curated, but it's you can see how this it's kind of like saying like keyboard wrote this poem because like Keyboard had twenty six letter I, just combined them, right? Right exactly. Exactly. I mean you know that that's field is moving so fast that you know who knows how true that's going to be in a in a couple of years. But I think they're to understanding linguistics really helpful because when you go back to this sort of socio side, what kinds of English or what kinds of language are available in these sorts of texts so like gt three is trained and like billions of words of stuff that's been written on the Internet. Well, what exists on the Internet right? Like there's a whole lot of English text, it's disparate like if you train it on new sites, it's going to be a certain type of English. It's not. Going to be a representation of how English is spoken, which is a lot more diverse than how it tends to get written down or it's going to get trained on. Here's a bunch of Harry Potter Fan. Fiction, which has written a particular style in it's hard to make those types of tools for any other language really at this point, even like the the big languages, a French or Chinese or Spanish or something, but it's hard because you need so much training data to get these kinds of results. Just don't have that much written text in really any other language or maybe. Many other languages beyond like the top ten. So how do you do this on the humans don't require this much input in order to start talking they take quite a lot of input but like by the time you're two or so you you know you're talking in sentences how can you do this with less input? That's where you could get something that actually worked for more languages. Well again, I talked to you for a thousand years. And I'm loath even ask a closing question because we'll be here for another forty five minutes. What do you? What do you hope people take away in terms of their daily daily use of language I, think that. A lot of people have this sort of fundamental linguistic insecurity of like a you know maybe I'm not doing it right like maybe I constantly saying things that are you have that sort of red pen hangover? And she just to be able to think through that in a more reason sort of way if you're not doing specific person hard if you're not actively insulting somebody or or being somebody. You're fine. You're probably fine. It's okay to wave at the end of your calls. It's okay to. Be Creative with language and be expressive with language. We doing interesting things with language like. It's okay. Thank you a wonderful message to end with. Thank you so much for being on the show. The potting the pick the podcast against God link throughs as in the book is called because Internet. You are called Gretchen McCulloch really appreciate you being here. Thank you for having me. Well. Thank you again to Gretchen McCulloch for coming on the show. Her book again is because Internet and her podcast is linked through Z. Azam. A hope you check them out that is it for us this week on factually if you liked the show, hey, send me an email and let me know what you thought about. If you have any questions for me, feel free to shoot them to factually at Adam. conover dot net and please please please leave us a rating or review wherever you subscribe. It really does help us out I want to thank our producers, Dana Wickham Sam Rodman are engineers, Brett Morris, and Ryan Connor. Andrew W K for our theme song. I've Been Adam Konami you can find me at Adam Khan, dot net or Adam Carnivore get your social media, and until next time we'll see next week on factually WGC, you offers a quality degree program that is affordable flexible and even makes it possible to graduate faster. You can earn a respected Bachelors or Masters degree on your own schedule for under eighty seven, hundred dollars per year fees included plus wg use low flat tuition covers as many courses. As you complete each term, the faster you learn the more you'll save. So get your sixty five dollar application fee waived at wg you dot edu slash factually that's you dot edu slash factually.

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Effectively Wild Episode 1535: Leave Me Out, Coach

Effectively Wild: A FanGraphs Baseball Podcast

00:00 sec | 7 months ago

Effectively Wild Episode 1535: Leave Me Out, Coach

"Long Good morning and welcome to episode fifty thirty five of effectively wild. The baseball PODCAST ON FAN WRAPS DOT COM brought to you by our Patriot. Supporters on Sam Miller of ESPN. Along with. Ben Lindbergh Ringer and with us. Today is Andy Mcculloch National Baseball writer at the athletic in the hello. Hey what's up guys much? We're going to be chatting with our Palley Andy about an article that ESPN RUST. Dodd composed about the best baseball songs. Ever an article that I didn't expect to enjoy and I did. You were clearly not an athletic commenter. Big comments are a bit. I assume we will spend more time on the comments than me. Well maybe maybe on the articles before we get to that though Two things two articles that have been published on the Internet that I have things I want to mention about. One is an article I wrote. It was inspired. It was prompted by instigated by an email from listener. Mark who discovered this odd factoid. On in one thousand nine hundred. Seventy Don Mattingly Card and wanted me to investigate it and so I did. I'm very proud of how that one turned out and I hope you'll check it out that's up at. Espn right now. But in the process of investigating this mystery I got the privilege of talking to a bunch of people who were in the baseball card industry in the late eighties and early nineties. Which is when I was an avid baseball card collector. Pretty I mean I probably would say an obsessive baseball card collector. My number one hobby was collecting baseball cards. My number two hobby was sorting baseball cards. And so I talked to this Guy Phil Carter. Who was the the sports editor basically for tops at the time so fill is the I who produced these cards? These sets of baseball card so every year new set would come out and I'd be I'd go buy packs for a year and get thousands of those cards and stare at them in memorizing and then sort them and of course people were producing those. I never really thought about it. But people were producing those those cards and talking to fill Carter. I was surprised to say was a very profound and somewhat nerve making experience. I felt like I was talking to a bona fide celebrity in my life in my childhood. A person who had a huge impact in my life and now if. I talked to a baseball player. I do not feel that way even though they're famous and very successful if I even were to talk to a baseball player who was huge in my childhood. I don't think I would really care. I don't think I'd have any particular emotion about it. Even if it was like Willie mays. I don't think I'd really care that much. I might just think Willie mays that's going to be good content but Phil Carter. I was totally moved by talking to fill Carter so I wanted to ask each of you. I assume each of you as also somewhat numb to the experience of talking to ballplayers but is there anybody in the in the game in the sport in the any any aspect of the sport that you think you were to interview them you would actually feel a little bit a sweaty palms. I think I've had that experience with some people and I think it's generally writers right. It's writers I really admire 'cause that's what we do and so maybe we admire them because we aspired to be writers. I didn't really aspire to be a baseball player. I know you did at one point but I think for me. It was when I met Roger Angel which happened on two occasions and neither time did I feel like I really nailed it or somehow conveyed. How much I care about. Roger Angell in a way that would somehow cut through the decades and decades of accolades. He has received in the people who've come up to him and said I love your work. I doubt I made an impression and he will always remember the thing that I said the compliment. I said but I walked up to him once at Yankee Stadium when he was there for. Dirk eaters last game and I was reading about it too and just of accosted him and said something awkward. 'cause it was one of those things where. I didn't have anything to say really but I just felt like I would kick myself later if I didn't say something so I just kind of went up to him and said Hey I really like you and I don't know exactly what I said but that's what it adapted to. I didn't have some profound observation about his work. I didn't have a favorite passage that no one else ever quotes and I read it back to him and he said yes. That's the best sentence I've ever written and no one else has recognized that that was the pinnacle of my power. So nothing memorable happen and then another time. I met him at this Coffee Club. He belongs to this like private club. That my great uncle also belongs to and so I went and it was like a watch party for Thelma and Louise for something. They did do movies. And this is the most like Old New York Shit. Good Yeah and so it was felt that is Roger. Angell really likes Thelma and Louise so he was giving some introductory remarks about the movie and then we put the movie on and he got very upset during the movie because the screen was too dark and it was very dark like they close the blinds and everything but it was still very hard to see and specially in the indoor scenes. You just couldn't see anything and so I just watched the whole movie with Roger Angelique muttering that how it was too dark beings annoyed that you you can actually see the movie. So he wasn't in the best mood that I would up to and after just Said something innocuous I think again I failed to say anything memorable or insightful so this was a specifically a social club so unlike yes he stadium where you're a fan of costing him in this case he is there to be greeted by others. Who were there sort of like? He's a member of this and he. It's it's like A. I don't know like Gentleman's Club. It's not just for gentlemen. I don't think not gentleman's club and at the not that kind but you know like one of those old school clubs where you go to sit and read books and have liquor served to them and slow burlesque with Roger Louise's rated R. So you and Roger Angell. We're watching adult movie anyway. It's Something he belongs to and I don't but I had basically like a guest pass because my great uncle coast there and so I think it's not the type of place where you are generally accosted by fans who are just eager to greet you because it's maybe kind of go to do that at this club because there are probably other literary figures there and They probably don't want fence coming up to them all the time and expressing their admiration. But I kind of broke that rule cause a train show so anyway I've tried to formally interviewed him a couple of times cooking on this podcast and that hasn't worked out but I have Talked to him twice and it was. If anything embarrassing for both of us you also wanted to get him to blurb our book and our editor said. We were not allowed to reach out to him. What is that true? I thought we were happy. Our editor told us to come up with a list of people that we would like to to reach out to for blurbs and basically said you there are two tiers here there. You're the ones that you actually have a relationship with them. And then like the moon shots and they said you can only we will only allow you to reach out to one moonshot. Because there's something like there's I don't know I guess there's something sort of transactional in the requests for blurbs and they don't WanNa like have they they basically don't want every author asking Michael Lewis. 'cause THEY WANNA have like. Were still cool vibe with Michael Lewis and so they only let us reach out to one and Roger. Angel was not the one but I think ben secretly had like a courier service. Deliver the book I I somehow conveyed a copy to it. I think it may have been through my great uncle. I think he just handed off a coffee at the club when he was there. By the way Wikipedia Page for gentlemen's Club a gentleman's Club is a private social club. Originally set up by four British upper class men in the eighteenth century and popularized by English. Upper class men and women in the late. Nineteenth Century and early twentieth century. Clearly the primary meaning of Gentlemen's Club. All Right I went to gentlemen's Club Dot Com and it immediately. I SORTA got. It sent me to chatter Bait Dot Com. So I think might be wrong but I can't top that but I can try. I once followed Gary Smith into a bathroom because I thought it was him and it was. This was like right after I I graduated from college and I was working at the Star Ledger. And it was in the two thousand nine world series when the and I was writing sidebars when the Yankees were playing the Phillies and Gary Smith had lived in Philadelphia for a long time and he had been. I guess he was getting started on some of the work related to well. I guess I don't know he was just there for the world series or whatever and I saw him in the press box because that Gary Smith Gary Smith doesn't show up and press boxes and so I just teams like walking away so I just kept following him until he just walked into the bathroom and I was like well. I'll just go wash my hands or something and so I didn't say anything to him until a couple of years later when I met him but I went with a good line. I said you probably don't hear this very often. But I'm a big fan of your work. And he smiled and chuckled. He's a very nice man. Did you tell him you had previously followed him into a bathroom. No that seems like maybe a third conversation type thing. I do think I would get a little nervous if I was talking to like Hank Aaron or Willie mays or Sandy Koufax but I like maybe once a year I write about poker and I end up talking to poker players. Poker's like my number one hobby and I'm not very good at it but I always find myself like stretching my own potent Like just trying to show them that. I know what I'm talking about. So they don't treat me like a rube but it just sounds so embarrassing. It'd be like do you play poker all like Oh yeah. Yeah Yeah Yeah Man. Yeah I'm pretty. I'm planning to five five game at the bike. And they're like Oh that's cool. I play one hundred two hundred so I so embarrassed like my interviews with poker players are on the one hand fastening listen back to because I feel. I'm just like enraptured. By everything they're saying I find it so interesting and just impossibly cringe e hearing my own questions so yeah all right okay. Good answered that one would be together. When you talk to Phil Carter. Yeah he was great. He was a fantastic interview. So Dave Jameson had written the book that I mentioned recently a mint condition which is about the baseball card industry. And particularly during the junk whack era and he had had a a line in there mentioned that tops like basically wouldn't comment on anything because like they're kind of a famously closed off company and their line to him with something like you know we might want to write a book someday to you know and so I was sort of. This was a top baseball card and I was kind of expecting to get nowhere with tops employees and then I just Cold called Phil Carter in. He like gave me two hours dolman all sorts of of of great junk so he was great. It's fantastic the other article on the Internet. Is that Pedro Hedera. Maura author of the sack of flour article at the athletic that we had talked about the secondary aspect of that article that he had discovered the roaming chicken in the same game and Pedro solved the mystery of the chicken as well which is Great. Great article will link to it and you should read it and you know. He talks the person who smuggle the chicken and describes how the chicken with smuggled in and all of that and it's great but I just think that the lead is fantastic. I'm going to read the lead of this article. It's like the first like five paragraphs basically on September fourth nineteen seventy-one nineteen year old. Charlie Roberts invited a young woman on a date to dodger stadium. A group of his buddies from his hometown plan to sit in the right field. Bleachers that night but Robert's thought better of subjecting bonding to his friends one of them. A nineteen year old named Paul Eldridge was planning to unleash a rooster onto the outfield so Robertson. Bonnie drove and sat separately from the rest of the redlands crew. That evening was going. Well when Roberts decided in the bottom of the fifth to try to impress his date by alerting her that something wild was about to happen from their loge seats down the third base line. He pointed toward the outfield. Where eldridge had dropped the rooster below the wall just then a massive sack of flour fell from the night sky on the infield leaving players shaken on the field a plume of smoke in the air and confusion in the stands. How did you know that was going to happen? Robert's date passage shock. He didn't he said he told her to look to where the rooster was. They did not go on many more dates. It's like it really. You could imagine feeling like you were in assimilation. If those two things showed up so precisely as page recounts I mean and there had been a chicken four innings earlier in the game that would have made for a weird night at the park but the fact that they came so coincidentally is some like you know opening opening sequence in Magnolia. Sort of a vibe. Yeah imagine being upstaged like that you smuggle in a rooster very that you fail. I CA- five-hour falls from the sky. Yeah I'd feel so cheated furious right. We're GONNA talk about music here. Andy and rust and dodd who is also at the athletic wrote a list of the thirty greatest baseball songs of all time and I'll spoil the ending which a lot of people were shocked by that they were not reading a twenty nine song build up to center field at number one but in fact. Centerfield is no are on the list. I want to talk about the concept of baseball songs. And how you guys came up with this list and what standards you used to decide. Where songs would break. Because there's a real definitional problem here not not problem but challenge not just with the word baseball songs but also with the word greatest which you can see. There's A. There's some sort of inconsistency from sauna song and I wondered how you guys square that but let's just I talk about Centerfield. You're accused in the comments by the way if you WanNa know the demographic of your readers this is a great exercise because I'm sure that we all think that we're writing for people who are kind of like us kind of our age kind of cool like us. If we imagine that we we we have a sort of an ideal guys who follow with a exactly and then you bring those articles and then you read this article on you realize that you know. We're all every baseball writer. Every baseball writer is like writing for eighty percents boomers and they all came out to yell at for disrespecting John Fogerty. Yeah actually that was the point. You just made is an editor at the Casey. We're asking the exact same point to me. And she said something to the effect of you know one of the big challenges of our jobs as I just never know who were writing for. And she was like well. Now I know like now now we have a really good idea who reads our site I have to say. I've read many athletic articles a subscriber. I've met many of yours and almost unfailingly. I will see that some of the comments say this is why I subscribed to go on this. And we're for having the nicest comments. I have a running thread on slack with a colleague where we just exchange these very happy athletic subscribers. Who just can't step saying that. This is exactly where they subscribe. Because we just can't believe like I edited baseball perspective. Sam Did too and we had great commenters. But I don't recall seeing that often that commenters would say this article justifies my subscription and yet every other athletic says that we've speculated are they are. They stuffing the ballot box. Here they somehow having fake commenters saying that. This is way that this justifies the subscription. Anyway I see that all over the place I think. This is the first athletic article where I've seen the opposite in the comments. There's definitely been some other ones with. This was definitely the one with the lowest stakes. This was the this is the one that seemed to upset people for for no real reason like we were making a big point. We just you know that song just sucks. I'll ask how much of your motivation for. This ranking was a big reveal at the end of trolling everyone centerfield. So you guys aren't going to believe this because I don't believe this. I don't even think we had a conversation about it. Like we started talking about this maybe a week or two before came out rust and sent me a tax. You know something defective like we were in contact all the time. Just you know talking about whatever and he was like you know it'd be like a like a stupid idea for a story but maybe could work like. Why don't we like rank the best baseball songs and I was like. Yeah whatever okay because like you know these are I mean this in the non sort of like in the? Obviously we're all exceedingly fortunate to be in the position. Where are they were able to work from home? And you know our health is we're not having to put ourselves at risk professionally and all this stuff all the necessary caveats but like these are desperate times in terms of trying to come up with story ideas you know. It's not easy so like you kind of have to you know. Throw some shit against the wall and see what sticks and this was definitely you know this was Russ's idea like hey you know we should wish ranked songs like okay. Yeah well let's let's do it and you know. He came up with the initial master list of like. I don't know maybe like sixty or something like that. And we kind of started paring it down and I don't even think and we did a lot of this over tax. I think maybe one of US texted the other. Like Yeah Centerfield socks leave it off and then just like moved on. Didn't think about it at all like there was no like Whoa we might get some blowback or like do you think we should put in a caveat or man I think like maybe we should let people know it was just like that song sucks like whatever and then the the story came out and it was just like you know chaos. Yeah I mean Ben Gabbard from death cab. Put It on instagram and congratulated us on graduate level. Trolling Vitriol in there. Which which lake. I guess like that is the best kind of trolling when you just do it like naturally. That's that's actual. Trolling is when you're not doing it on purpose. Maybe but yeah like it. Our motivation wasn't to talk about like. How centerfield sucks just kind of like? We're trying to come up with a story idea and we both liked the mountain. Goats was Centerfield. One of the sixty. I think so. Yeah but it was but then we're like yeah that's all. That's all sucks. Do you think if you had done the top sixty would it have made it probably put? Yeah but it also it would have been like number fifty seven and people would have been like mad about that. A lot of people were mad. Though that you didn't even mention that it was an omission. Like think I think if we could do it over again. There were two things that I would do over again. I would probably have another Steve Goodman Song thing. It's called like a a a dying last wish or whatever which is actually a really good song and we just. Yeah we if that one we should have included it We already had go cubs go because I didn't go cubs go whips. Ask but whatever and then we probably just should have put in like a note about center field so it didn't seem like that was the whole point of the story was not have it you know and I don't know we probably could've would've pointed out that rusted and I both at different times covered the Kansas city royals and before every spring training game at surprise stadium they play Centerfield and it causes some serious. You know like negative memories Every time I hear those compress drums. That's the thing I think I feel the same way about Centerfield and we talked about this thing because I remember saying that it's overplayed and I'm sick of it and I don't really like it and didn't you sort of defend it because I mean I think if we could all just have the the neuromancer from men in black and here Centerfield for the first time we would probably say that's a pretty good song I mean it's catchy certainly book and it's not good. It's weird phrasing. It's awkwardly. Some of the lyrics are awkward. But if I could forget the fact that I've heard it at every ballgame into and it's been seared into my brain and I'm sick of it and it never wanna hear it again. I think it would at least be in my top. Thirty eight probably. I'm going to answer that but I I would like to say I'm reading the comments in full. And here's a great comment. Very incomplete list. How about take me out to the ballgame sure of the actual title but it's Baseball's anthem Sung it most baseball game. Seventh-inning stretch andy off what has guided by voices when you could take me out to the ball game or whatever it's actual title is. I got an incredible. Dm from Yeah by the way. What would it what what is actual title be? That's a good question of what you know but I got an incredible. Dm from From Riley Breckenridge of Thrice and productive outs who said You should do a follow up story. The worst songs about baseball. That's just Centerfield and take me out to the ball game Which would I mean that would have been you know. That's graduate level trolling I guess. Yeah Yeah I kind of feel like a lot of the reason that people hate centerfield is the repetition like Ben says. I also feel like it's partly because of all the artists on this list. John Fogarty is the best artist. He would be the single best artist on this list if he had written a baseball song. Well okay except I guess Paulsen on their on their not to be super sports writer e but like springsteen's good all right but but still. Thirty isn't Alzheimer's Fogarty. Certainly one of the thirty best guys who's ever written a song about baseball. I feel like the fact that this is. He's probably five or whatever anyway. I'm kind of the fact that it's the. It's a nineteen eighties production by a great artist. From you know like a great recording. Artists gives it a cheese factor. That if were written by you know some somebody else on here like Terry cashman friends. I mean let's be honest. You have number three is talking. Baseball by Terry listened nine nine. The talking. Baseball is a good song. I Sang Terry. Cashman wrote a novelty song. There's a line I was reading about this. And there's a line in the Terry Cashman wikipedia page. While the song is well recognized today. It was all but ignored by typical top forty radio during its chart light. Yeah it's a trash song. I like it. It's sort of cute and it hums but it's not a good song right like if John Fogerty had written both Centerfield and talk in baseball. We would hate talking baseball anymore. Now that's been. We hate centerfield talking baseball. It's endlessly adaptable. So you get talking tough on the team specific versions of talking baseball so everyone gets their version. You have you ever. You've never heard put me in coach. I'm ready to play second base. They've got one for every position ready. I can be second base offense tackle raw elda every sport so fascinating yuck inflating. John fogarty's incredible output with this garbage song. No no no no. I'm saying that it is the fact that we know that John Fogerty is way better than this that we are angry that this song exists as arguably most recognizable and played song. And so it's like everybody's like Bob. Dylan's very lucky that he wrote catfish in nineteen seventy five and not one thousand nine hundred eighty five because whatever production was happening to Bob Dylan. Music in. Nineteen eighty-five would have also been like all time bad and yet the cords would be the same and there is a hook in that song. I don't hate it although I hated a lot more now than I did the first time I heard it. It's not a song that I'm dying to hear again. So this goes to the question part of the question to which is. Did you and rust in have any conversation about the value of the song versus the actual connection to baseball. 'cause like talking baseball again not a good song exactly but it is very much about baseball and other songs on here are good songs. And they're not at all about this Miller. Baseball movie applied to music. Yeah like the Strokes. Song in here is not about the mets at all. It's just called to the mets and there is nothing about baseball in it at all. Fall out boy. Song has absolutely nothing. The lyrics of the lyrics do not include the title as a baseball title. You have the Konya Song Barry Bonds which is just a pun on the word hit in. That's it that's the exergen tire use of baseball. And that sort of a challenge. I mean really the number one song. The John Darnell song is cubs and five. And that's one line about baseball. Now I will say that. It is by far the best line like Musically the high point of that song is when when he says Chicago. You know so it is. I think that qualified I think all these qualified but I'm just wondering if if this was like kind of like there were two inputs and you tried to some the inputs so like better song but less baseball or or worse song but lots of baseball did. Did you talk about that? I suppose I could give a long answer kind of unwinded but no I mean we try. Yeah like we didn't. We didn't really think about it on like a Meta textual level. I guess it was more baseball ker so like I was talking to feel Supreme Court definition of pornography. A couple of days before this ran. I had actually been having a conversation with Patrick Dubuque. Who was talking about how there are no good baseball songs? And that is always Baffled him and so he wrote he wrote. I can't figure out why this would be if Sufiane Stevens can write a song about Ad Stevenson. I feel like someone in twenty twenty could sit down for a couple of hours and put together something about Lou Whitaker and Alan. Trammell is take me out to the ball game so definitive piece of music. That other baseball songs have to sound like it or is it just that lyrically sports don't fit into the way most people right. I'm trying to think about sport songs in general and the only one leaping to my head is this sporting life by the December and I suggested that I said if someone I actually said if someone were to put together a list of the best baseball songs I bet Mrs Robinson end up number three because it says the name Joe Dimaggio. Yeah and so you didn't include Mrs. Robinson you did include fallout song. Boys on New Paradise by the Dashboard. Light that's not a baseball song. Well so case so desperate times like try. We're churning man trying to come up with content like fuckers games so paradise by the Dashboard. Light is Basically it's like a like a seven minute song. One one movement of that song is some voice in non singing is like giving play by play to a baseball game Thursday though. Oh okay so and that is. That's a minute and a half of a literal baseball being described here but it's also the very worst part of that song added of. That's what I was going to say. Yeah it's the aesthetically it's awful. So how'd so how did you? What did you throw out? I guess what did you decide was not a baseball song? That's that Ramones Song beat on the Brat races with the Baseball Bat Yeah Louisville slugger by eazy e no didn't make it the Beastie Boys Song referenced. Sahara sure did have you did have. Here's another hit barry bonds. That's songs call Barry Bonds and I think in Konya reading like this. I was reading like MTV DOT COM articles from two thousand eight and like watching. Pete Wentz like videos with you know like all press like I was getting super deep into you know Internet two point. Oh culture on this maybe three point whatever. Yeah the Barry Bonds thing I guess there's like the idea was that you know bonds was the best hitter in the world and you know the that's how far this with Lil Wayne was going to go was gonna go Barry Bonds Distance. I you know yeah. There's some good songs that had baseball related lyrics but you would not think of them as baseball songs. They like for the turnstiles. The Neil Young Song from on the beach and the last versus. What all the Bushley batters left to die in the Diamond. And something else in the stands. The home crowd scatters for the turnstiles. I don't really think of that as a baseball song. And it doesn't come to mind when I think of baseball songs. But even that. That's an explicit baseball reference. It's averse if you put baseball. In the title of more explicitly. We might think of it as a baseball song. But I mean if I remember that song existed it might have been like number four on this list. You guys wrote this with an intro about how baseball and music go together and like you've got this argument that the quote the marriage between music and baseball dates more than a century. The attraction John Darnell says is simple. We all die. We all consider our own mortality and athletes. They get old. The implication is that you have found thirty good songs here. Thirty good baseball songs here. And could you rewritten article with a intro? That was all baseball. Songs are trashing here thirty examples. Or don't you have a job right your job is working for. Espn are usually you? Don't need to edit the athletic. All right PAL He yes I mean. They're like I did not expect this story to be such an aesthetic What's it called firebrand or yeah? Yeah I mean we really like you know I I. I did not expect this to be a talker as it were or would call the thirty greatest baseball socks. If you called the thirty songs here thirty suggs that we just thought a foot mural texting I being a little more You know facetious. I guess 'cause you guys are my friends but talk. I mean you know. We're like we're just trying to come up with content. You know to like keep this is. These are hard times. Yeah we could have week. We probably if I if I would do it over again. There are three things now that I would change. I'd add the dying cubs cubs fans whatever to fucking songs called Would have put in a caveat about Centerfield and we probably would have noted something in the intro about how songs about baseball. Actually all that great. The problem is you know we're trying to draw eyeballs into our our work and if we read a story that says hey. Here's the thirty best baseball songs. You should know this going in though all these songs suck and You're not gonNA like any of them and not only that we left off the one you're thinking of so please subscribe to the athletic. It's a really good site you know help you. You can read Ken Rosenthal night game by Paul. Simon is a masterpiece. That's weird fucking saw. And that was a weird song and yet number twenty behind cheap seats by Alabama which again. I'm trying to figure out how you sorted these. Did you give Alabama credit for being literal or what what am I mean? I think the main thing I said is i. I wish to have go cubs go higher on the initial list and that we should have Watching McCall it and it Talking baseball should be higher and cubs and five should be number one that. Yeah that's yeah the rankings. Are Maybe the least interesting? 'cause I've I've heard Joe Posinski talk on his podcast about his baseball one hundred series where he just basically wrote Warren peace over the course of like four months where he just wrote essays about one hundred best baseball players and he had to order them and he had sort of a formula that was kind of war based and he made some adjustments but he also just like stuck some guys in its numbers because it was their uniform number like you didn't take the rankings that seriously because he didn't WanNa devote large parts of his essays to explaining why he ranked someone here or why someone else was higher and he didn't WanNa have to Ding guys and say well. This guy is lower than that guy because he didn't do this or that. He wanted to celebrate what made them good and interesting but of course there was a war in every covet section about how this guy is thirty seven and that other guy is thirty nine or something. I guess that just comes with the territory and really that's the appeal of this format like it. It almost presupposes that there is some objective hundred best that there is some truth that we could access. If you're just honest tour diligent enough about it and there is no way to do that. But of course that's the appeal of it is just the the argument the room. Kind of argument. Where you're saying this guy is better than that guy and someone else's going to argue about that and they will click to hate read your ranking and hopefully they'll just enjoy the essay but I guess that is part of it here like you had to decide this and it's It's on preference. It's so subjective and and everything and I could see if you may be gave a bump to some songs that were were songs but more baseball league like if the baseball miss of it was insurable to the ranking than maybe you could put Alabama higher than Paul Simon even though the song is worst but it's more explicitly about baseball. Give it some extra credit for that. I kind of thought the reaction to this story was going to be. Most people didn't care because no one cares about most things everyone rights and then you know five people would say like hey cool thanks for the music recommendations and instead it was hundreds of people just all telling us to go to hell. Every person who signed up for JOE's baseball one hundred project and was brought into the site immediately tried to cancel their subscription out of fury. Yeah no I mean I you know yeah by by nature if you do a list of something. You're just asking to upset someone that's what's going to happen. Is that if you rank. If you rank things you will inevitably do things that you know get stuff wrong so like I did a I did one. That was like the best players to wear every number. And I you know said that you know Carlton should be thirty two and not Sandy Colfax which like whatever like either one's fine but there were people who were not thrilled with that decision so I mean look we serve to the readers and you know I I genuinely enjoy the interactions with readers. And I didn't take this one too seriously because the stakes are just so low. I was just surprised at Man. People love that song. People love that Song I guess they do. I don't know if it's just like a Pavlovian thing where you have to include Centerfield because it's on the present. There is something where like some of songs are. Maybe not great songs. But they're part of the culture. They're part of the experience of baseball so that kind of confers some sentimental attachment to them if they were about something else and you didn't hear them at ballgames at a time when you're treasuring the experience already in your happy to be at the Ballpark and this is the thing you like. Then I think there's kind of a grace that's given to the songs. There's like a halo effect where we all loved the song. Because it's about baseball and we love baseball. And if you just change the words we would never listen to that song. But it's you know part of the Culture American fabric and national pastime in our upbringing and formative years. And all of that. I remember having a an interaction on twitter about ten years ago where I tweeted something like there's no way to make a bad song has hand claps if it's got hand claps it's going to be a good song and somebody actually. It was Matt Welsh. Who's an angels fan? And his I think the editor in chief of reason magazine at the time replied Centerfield and I think maybe what this song comes down to. Is that roughly half of the world? Believes that you can't ruin us on. That has hand claps that that it has hand claps is therefore awesome like all hand cat clap songs are good because all hand claps are good and then the other half say hand claps are not enough this song is is otherwise trash and hand claps cannot save it so I I don't know I do kind of feel like the hand claps saved the song. Yeah I I disagree. You know one man's trash is another man's treasure and A lot of folks treasurer this song. I would like to thank you for two to musical recommendations though that are in here that I was appreciative of one Song Mickey Mantle by the singer. I Guess Waters Nets Jam. I like it. I hadn't heard it before. And then the jolt and Joe Dimaggio by Les Brown and his orchestra At is wonderful. Yeah that's okay. I never heard that song before. Yeah that's documentary. Yeah that's there's a lot of like Have I heard this in Ken? Burns documentary? Feel although songs. Yeah Yeah. There's another one of those that you you snubbed. I think the count Basie Sung. Did you see Jackie Robinson Paul kind of Chandra very catchy Ben and I were part of a group effort at Baseball Prospectus? About ten years ago where we were all asked our favorite baseball's on and neither might pick nor bins pick major list Bend you remember. No I have no idea. It was baseball boogie by Mabel. Scott Oh which you then. What wrote a whole article about rain today? Maybe you didn't. Maybe this was after. You've written your your your sheet music article right out of phase where he was really into double entendre in old baseball music on. Oh and so this. Baseball boogie was part of that. Yeah Mine was Walter Johnson by Jonathan Richmond. Yeah we we should have quoted that one. Yeah you don't like it. There's a Jonathan in Richmond. Fenway Song it's not really a baseball song but it mentions baseball. It's about the neighborhood that I think is pretty good. But the Walter Johnson Song so for the most part though like we're talking about there's there's sort of like four kinds of song on here I would say there's the one where the baseball is extremely tangential and where. It's only a baseball song in the sense that it's an American song and American songs will soon take little parts of American iconography of which baseball is it part of it and therefore a baseball reference gets in the song learnt really baseball songs all of their perfectly legitimate for your purposes here and then there's the extremely baseball songs and those songs are generally not very good here but there might be good emotional connections to them because we like baseball and they're about baseball and then there's the baseball novelty songs of which light take me out to the ball. Game is one but so jolting Joe Dimaggio and so is the Meatloaf Song that we were talking about. Where like its spoken? Word Baseball. Or it's really it's a novelties. On and then there's the occasional actual song that's actually about baseball although usually more in a metaphorical sense but cubs and five is kind of one of those and night. Game is one of those is. Is it just unrealistic to think that you can write a song that is explicitly about baseball and kind of consistently about baseball? Not just one line is passing metaphor but about baseball all the way through with baseball players named in all of that without immediately becoming a Dorky Novelty Song. I mean I think it depends on the subject matter. I think if you were you know writing a song about being a young kid and you wake up in the morning and the sun comes out. There's new grass on the field to you. Know you're you're thinking about playing the game you know rounding third and heading for home and then when you're on your way brown eyed handsome man. I think anyone can understand the way that you would feel if you were writing a song about that. You know if you were writing a song about you know sort of the universal like sort of how the you know the The the specific is universal. Because everyone can relate to that feeling of when you go to your coach and you say put me in coach. I'm ready to play. I'm ready to play today. You put me in coach. I'm ready to play today. I'm not only ready to play this position. I am ready to be calm disposition. I'm been eating Centerfield for breakfast. You know here's a good son. There's a good song about my slumbering heart by Rilo Kiley. Do you know that one. I that about baseball in my dreams I see myself hitting a baseball in a greenfield somewhere near a freeway. All Tannin smiling and running from third base. What record is that on execution of all things? That's a great song. Yeah but again. It's it's about baseball for for four lines I just. I don't know that you can do it without being becoming too specific there are no good songs about sports. Yeah exactly like I mean. It's just not they're not they're not like there are good songs that are used in sports. But it's just very difficult to you know to write a good Song About Football that fountains of Wayne Song that everybody was flipping out about Last week or two ago quarterback in the pocket. Yeah that's okay. That's one that we were talking about for unfortunate reasons. You know like it's a good song but yeah I mean there's no good songs about basketball Adams licensors you know. He took a total genius to write one. Right right it takes like a you know. A freak of nature could write a great song about anything in order to do it. I mean it's kind of the same way that John Darnell. You know wrote a great song about baseball. Because it's John Darnell. I'm more of a melody. Man Than Lyrics men generally maybe even more of an instrumentation men. My Name's I`Ma consider myself melody man. That's not the name of someone at the Gentleman's Club where we met I. Just I think you'd think like I'm a writer. Appreciate word play. I might care about their ex but there are a lot of songs with terrible lyrics that I still love because I can sing along to them and often. You can't even understand the lyrics. Sometimes it's hard to even tell what they are and I still love the song and it almost like distracts me from the music itself. Whatever experience I'm having with the music on some kind of visceral level if I'm also paying attention to the words they're exceptions. Of course there. Lisa safe like Latin songs were very important but on the whole if you had to give me great lyrics or great music. I'm going to go with the music every time and so. I'm not really giving that much extra credit for the baseball content of the songs even though I like words like baseball and you'd think that I'd be really inclined to to love those songs if the music's not there it's just not going to do it for me. I'm not going to give you a pass because it's baseball song and I don't know whether sometimes people set out to write a baseball song and so they're starting with the lyrics and maybe it's less organic because they're trying to fit the music around the lyrics. I don't know whether that happens or whether it's just hard to access like the peso's of sports or something when you're writing a song. I don't I don't know what it is. But somehow it it just almost makes it seem very mundane and humdrum when you're writing about sports in a song and it just often doesn't do it for me so yeah. There's a song on the list by Peter. Paul and Mary and I didn't know that song and I went to watch it. And it you know. It is explicitly about baseball. It's call right field and it's all about playing right field and feeling like a you know a loser because you're in right field but like you can tell the even they consider it like they're singing it with like a sort of goofy novelty song facial expression the whole time you're like you can really tell they're not taking it seriously in the way that you know. They take hammers seriously and dragons seriously. Yeah I think probably the only good baseball song is talking baseball. And that might be like explicitly anti Labor or at least implicitly p Labor So you know yeah. I don't know I don't know if the couple quibbles here I will mention that are not related to center field so I think that you have the wrong baseball projects on on here. That's my opinion you have to have some baseball projects. Obviously on a list of baseball songs. But you don't want to go too heavy on project so you have don't call them twinkies which is the cleberation with Craig Finn. The hold steady and not really a Bruce Guy. I'm not really a hold steady guy and I think there are better baseball project songs. I think Ted fucking Williams is a great baseball project song the Curt Flood Song that they have gratitude for curt flood. Really that that whole first baseball project album is really very good. And that's tough when your whole reason for being a band is that you're writing about baseball. And he was baseball. That limits you a little bit in terms of the content of your Sung and I do think that their best album is their first and there are other people who have baseball specific fans like the isotopes the punk band. They've got some good stuff and I guess. I would like to see Dan. Bern Sung on here Denver. Nisus sort of like a dylan esque kind of singer songwriter. And he's written a couple baseball album. Seabrook like a whole baseball album called doubleheader. That's just a all baseball songs. And some very good ones like Ballpark for instance. So I don't know I might put him on here just because he tried really hard. He wrote auto baseball songs. I'd be pretty demoralized if I had devoted entire albums to writing baseball songs and I couldn't get one on the top thirty given up at that. They are in general. He also has some baseball on non baseball albums which yeah. I think there's something that I'm not sure. Those songs are better than the ones on the baseball. But I kinda discount. The baseball album one's a little bit as being too much about baseball if you were to ask me. What's your favorite Song? About Michigan. I would feel a little bashful taking it from the Sufiane Michigan Album. Like it just seems a little too on the nose. Yeah that's maybe. That's the problem with baseball songs. In general just too on the nose. Yeah one of the challenges here is that you would. I mean you would like to have some hip hop on here. Because it's you know the dominant music over the past three decades but very few songs. There are a lot of like rap lyrics that refer to baseball players. Refer to baseball things but but I mean it would be. I mean it would be hard to write a good baseball wrap. Ken Griffey Junior and kids sensation demonstrated but I do think that maybe the the the one exception is that the wally song. Mvp is it's pretty close to actually about baseball. And it's a good song. So I would have put that on here Yeah there's there used to be a ballpark. Which is it's pretty pretty madeline. I've I might not put that on the list even though I miss guy but I think maybe some Damn Yankees. I don't know maybe you gotTa have heart could crack the list. It's a pretty good song. I'm not a big show tunes person but I'd give that credit and I think Vin lingle Mungo at definitely put Bentley. Go MANCO ON. Here's the song face Dave Frisch Berg because that song it's a pretty good song and it's also basically remembering some guys the song he's dislike naming names of old baseball players. It's a combination of remembering some guys and looking up funny names on baseball reference and then setting it to pretty good music. So I think that's That's probably deserving and I don't know maybe meet the mets if you're gonNA go for like a team centric song which are almost universally horrible but beat the mets. That's pretty catchy. I think and I don't know the todd. Snider Sung America's favorite pastime the Sung about dock. Ellis Good Lord. How good side. I will say like speaking of looking for content and being desperate a recently thought. Maybe I'll write a oral history of Scott steps. Marlins OH GOSH. Yeah because of that. Yeah this month was the tenth anniversary of the first time. Scott step performed marlins will soar. I went so far as to contact his publicist to ask if I could speak to. Scott stapp because I don't really know how this song came together. I think I remember hearing somewhere that like Jeffrey. Loria like ran into Scott stapp in an airport or something and somehow a song came out of that and I guess Scott stapp was a marlins fan so he wrote this. Just you know bad. It's good anthem for the Marlins who have not soared since and I think he adapted one of his existing songs had just set marlins lyrics and you know like the most simplistic lyrics. You could imagine in inimitable. Scott step pronunciation that no one else has ever said words that way. So you know it's like dope will play no one would say double-play except for Scott step anyway. I contacted his publicist and she was like. I'm going to have to pass on celebrating that anniversary because there's no way to discuss this without it. Being Scott's expense and that's a good player. I can't really argue with that. There's no way that Scott step is GONNA come out of this article looking better really. I mean the more we all forget about marlins will soar. Probably the better for Scott Step. I know I know all of the lyrics to that song on top of my do it performance for us. Are you guys going to do what we can do it together? I don't think I had the league's committed to every let's play ball league game. We want strikeouts base. It's double please take the field roar of the crowd. You guys come on. Come on come on. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Keep Hoping Dreaming Groups with little a Lo will so yeah. Two strikes swing away. Catch a stool. Yeah Yeah Yeah. That's some good shit. Two points quickly. The best song about Michigan is ball with a ball and one song that we did not include what we did link to that I genuinely. Love is Deepak Swing by Roger Klein and Peacemakers. That's what the D backs play after they win. It's great it's an earworm like yeah. If you've ever covered a game of chase field like I got to the point near the end of my time on the beach where I would just openly root for the d backs to win so I get here. Deepak swing as I was walking down to the clubhouse. It's a it's a great tune. All right I really liked the song. The way by fastball up. That sucks yeah You forgot the best baseball song. Sweet Caroline and also enter Sandman watered if a song could be so affiliated with baseball light could I just when I saw Bruce springsteen the first thing I thought was hot and I know train. You know if you're if you're the minority our on gas if you're the missile song of the postseason right exactly. Go the phone when I think about lighten. Mumps I exclusively think about baseball but then you did say like Dane. Cook saying there's only one. October is a baseball song you know so no. I think it would have been then. We would have been more like sweet. Caroline is a jock jam. You know like I think there's a difference between songs about baseball and Jock jams. I think you could definitely get thirty jock jams. You know the thirty best usages of music you know in sports or whatever like yeah that that would be then there would be a little bit of overlap like maybe like go cubs go would make bat list but yeah. I think it's a different category. All right I did like this. I thought it was great. Good that makes one of the three of us did all right. What will your next project with Reston? rank the. I've never worked with him again. Man He's terrible taste. I told them I said claimed at him. You you tried valiantly to get Centerfield in over my taste. I wish we'd actually had a serious conversation about it like you. Did you seriously genuinely. Did you average your votes together or did you just pick all right about this one? And we're on number twenty four. I'm GONNA run one. We sent me a list and said how does this look and I was like I move. This here moved out there. Move this year and the yeah. Yeah all right well. You gave us something to argue about. Bake you guys are you. Are you guys doing? Are you doing? Okay okay all right speaking of baseball songs. If you're interested in listening to or downloading any of the stat last song covers that we've been playing on recent episodes and will continue to play on upcoming episodes. I have put them all in a shared folder online. Which I will link to on the show page in that same folder I have added of the theme song from effectively wild including the original stat. Plas song and Ben Gilbert out show song and the time. Sam Sang the Intro Sung by himself. Acapella in the time. Someone remixed since Acappella intro. All of that is online for you to access. I also just pulled our listeners in the facebook group because I was curious about how they're listening habits had been affected by the pandemic and by the way it's shaken up all of our lives and routines so I asked regular listeners in our facebook group to choose from one of five options. They are listening less than usual during these strange times. And they're planning to catch up later. They're listening less than usual and they're not planning to catch out there listening as much as usual but at different times. They're listening as much as usual at the same times or they're listening more than usual and as I record this about. Thirteen hundred people have voted and so far. The leader is listening less than usual planning to catch up later. About thirty percent of people have chosen that about twenty seven percent have chosen listening less than usual. Not Planning to catch up sad. But I can't blame you. I'm falling behind on some podcast myself. About Twenty five percent chose listening as much as usual but at different times about fourteen percent chose listening as much as usual at the same times so they routine has not been disrupted and then about four percent chose listening more than usual sets. Not Bad about three quarters of the people surveyed are either still listening as much as usual or more than usual or they're planning to catch up once they're able to listen more that's encouraging course. This is sort of as selective sample. This is people who are members of our facebook group and our regular listeners. But it is nice to hear that so many of you are sticking with us even though you may not have a commute even though you may have kids to take care of twenty four seven even though you have a spouse or partner possibly. You're hopefully not quite as likely to tune out as you are your co workers so if you're still finding time for the podcast in a lot of people posted about how they're finding time in the way that they've squeezed it into their routines. I appreciate that end. If it's brought you any distraction or entertainment or comfort during this difficult time. I am very happy about that. I also want to tell you about an upcoming event. This Friday may first at three PM Eastern Travis Sawchuk. I will be doing kind of a live video discussion of our book the MVP machine which just came out recently in paperback with new afterward. So if you want to submit some questions that we will answer live you can do. So now it's through. An interface called crowd casts that are publisher set up. I will link to that on the show page as well and in the FACEBOOK GROUP. So you can go in now and get your questions in and you can hear us in. Cs answer again. Friday may first three. Pm Eastern you can also support effectively wild unpatriotic by going to patriot dot com slash effectively wild. The following five listeners have already signed up to pledge The amount and get themselves access to some perks. Sean McLaughlin Daniel John. More Katy B and Tom on thanks to all of you who still have time to sign up for me. If you'd like to support the podcast and thanks to all of you. Who have rallied around the podcast and Fan Crafts at what is a challenging. Time for a lot of people. Both personally and professionally. You can join our facebook group at facebook dot com slash groups. Sasha piddly wild can rate review and subscribe to collectively wild on itunes and other podcasts forms. Keep your questions and comments for me and SAM and meg coming your email. Podcast CONGRESS DOT COM or B. The Patriot messaging system. If you are a supporter thinks that higgins for his editing assistance in. We will be back with one more episode a little later this week. Tuck you say Steinberg say so does shine and there's not an wrong stick around. Yeah sticking around. Yeah Um St All right all right all right here we go.

Baseball writer Sam Miller editor Phil Carter John Darnell cubs Willie mays Roger Angel Roger Angell ESPN Ben Andy Mcculloch mets Barry Bonds Don Mattingly Konya Yankees Scott John Fogerty
#245: Stephanie Silverberg, IMFT/ART - How to Survive When Your Entire Family Has Lyme

Lyme Ninja Radio - Lyme Disease

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

#245: Stephanie Silverberg, IMFT/ART - How to Survive When Your Entire Family Has Lyme

"Culling only it's time for lime major radio today in Germany it of course low the positive not live four pediatric brought our food in the kicker p. says his online and then I I find somebody the trait you. This podcast is sponsored by the Lime Ninja Symptom tracker her. I'm so excited to tell you about our new lyme. Ninja symptom tracker one of the things I hear over and over again whether it's talking to a patient in my office or consulting over the phone with the client is just how difficult it is to keep track of progress on their lime journey recording symptoms daily or even weekly gives them too many data the two points there's so many ups and downs twists and turns at some point. They get lost and confused. The Lime Ninja symptom tracker takes all the guesswork out a tracking tracking symptoms with a simple monthly questionnaire. Once a month is the perfect bull deceive that new supplement or protocol is working right now. So when you take the symptom tracker questionnaire we give you a simple composite score for the month but we had big plans and the data you enter will not be loss as we roll out new new features best of all. It's free just head on over the lyman into radio. Dot Com slash tracker and sign up. That's lime and enjoy radio Dot Com slash tracker. You'll be glad you did join us every Thursday. Wait a minute. That's the plan branding anyway. That's the plan. We have not been on our game recently. We're endeavoring to get back on it and come out with a new episode Soda Every Week. There is so much that we want to teach you. We took a little vacation unannounced but we're feeling better now so join. It's every Thursday on. I tunes for the latest episode of Lime Ninja Radio. Hello I'm your host McKay Ricky and this episode number two hundred forty five with Stephanie Super Berg also welcomed show producer and the brains behind the lime Ninja Radio Aurora how low and in this episode you will learn three remain things why you should consider a functional medicine doctor for your lime journey why you should never accept a psychiatric diagnosis from an endocrinologist and why allowing the bottom to fall out quote unquote gives you the opportunity to find out what is important important in your life. Thanks and a big shout out to all you lime. Ninjas out there and I met so many of you at Bob Miller's conference conference out in Denver. It was such a pleasure. Thank you for coming up in saying hello. We had awesome time. I got to share the stage with some really important and big name. People Dr Joseph McCulloch was there Dr Neil Nathan. We've interviewed Dr Nathan before Dr Stephanie Senator was there we've interviewed her also so they're awesome and emily and Bob and Beth who we've also interviewed so as all our friends it was awesome and we were there too and all our new friends so just an awesome time out if you have yet to have your genetics tested to see if there's anything lurking there in the background the the what we're learning with Bob. Miller's group is really truly amazing and I can't encourage. Did you enough to to get that done. The test is only two hundred bucks and depending on who you consult with it's anywhere from another one hundred fifty to two hundred fifty bucks to have a consultation done and it makes can make all the difference in the world really there can be some major genetic snips going on burying going all that are just really a roadblock to healing so. I recommend in once you got your antibiotics together. Once you get your herbals whatever you're doing that way to kill off the the bugs really have look at your genetics will go a long way to helping you that was not meant to be a Bob Miller commercial but it is. I believe minute wholeheartedly. There's no doubt about that okay and also we'd like to welcome all you knew listeners so welcome to lime Ninja radio you ruined. I really appreciate you tuning in and as you know lime. Disease is an international problem each week. We have listeners join you from all over the world world this past week we've had listeners tune in from Perth to Copenhagen and from Albuquerque to Arlington. Thanks Roy and tell us a little a little bit about a little bit a little bit about this week's guest Stephanie Silverberg if you can do better with your on Awesome Okay Stephanie Silverberg who got killed. Lee Sick about three years ago. Neurological symptoms progress to the point where she was bed bound for three months consultations with specialists didn't yield any results and it wasn't until she visited a functional medicine. Addison doctor that she was able to start to regain her health and begin her journey. She works as a marriage counselor in Ohio. Hey McKay. Why did you want to talk to Stephanie. Very simple reason we're putting together our lime lime roadmap journey roadmap with the three steps to reboot resolve and restore so so reboot things are going. Well you kind of need to get a handle on things and for most people with lime disease were struggling. Things aren't going well so sometimes as the rebooting is just a minor thing. Sometimes it's complete reset but get a handle things what your co infections might be whether you have mould mold worthy of oxalate issues with iron imbalances the genetic problems you need to know all that kind of stuff to move forward confidently through your journey so the next thing is resolved right. You gotta fix those things right and that's going to take plan A. Plan B. The main thing I want you to do is get that plan. B. Doesn't matter where phase you are. Get that plan B. and especially if you're in the last phase right the restore so you rebuilding. You're feeling good. Everything's cranking along say. I'm this lime stuff. You need to have a plan. B Back right there. What happens if you have a flare. What happens if you get sick and things get triggered off again without a plan B. You're gonNA feel really devastated. There's always have that plan. Be Ready can't emphasize that enough and then once you got your plan b you got your plan. You got your roadmap. Go honan information diet. It's time to get off the Internet. That's alright. Stop listening to lyman injury for a little while anyway at least don't binge listen right because it's so easy to do right years up to three. I am. Oh my God. It's three a m because you went down a rabbit hole of getting some information. Information is GONNA make better. Taking action will sleeping sleeping. Well eating right. Will all these things will get you better. Information is truly truly important when you're lost. You need to find your way. There's no doubt about it but once you have a direction you know what you WanNa do and you have a plan B. Stop do yourself a favor. Give your mind arrest. You can always come back. The Internet will always be there. Promise Thomas Rose laughing at me. I'm on a rant a rant and a role for me. The information will will still be there when you were not going anywhere. Even though recently we have been somewhere we've got two hundred almost two hundred fifty episodes. You can always come back and listen the interwebs or forever. They never forget get. Take the pressure off yourself. Once you have an idea what you WANNA do once you've researched it made that decision breathe leave and just take two steps forward like we've been in our basement fixing fixing pressure pump. When you have a well you need a pump and you need a pressure tank to make it work well our pressure tank failed so we fixed it right and then it broke so I struggled and and went downstairs I was GonNa fix my cup of coffee and I turned the water spigot. Nothing not even a Gurgle came out of it was so sad because when I went to bed everything was working again again and if you're living in the country and you have no water that means all kinds of fun things happen and don't happen showers brushing your teeth or the least of your problems uh-huh toilets don't flush when you don't have water and that's a problem so we had to go down to the creek carry water buckets back to the house to flush the toilet. That's right. We're getting graphic. We're here at key's. Brooke roars mortified right. What's what's my point in. All this plan b the point is is that we went back downstairs stairs and we fixed it. We fixed it again and then fixed it again and tomorrow morning. We may be fixing it again but we've made adjustments each. It's time each time the nation on the plumbing a little bit better right. We should be doing youtube videos on employing. It's quite an system now. Upgraded upgraded a little bit put in a sediment filter and we've got anyway. It's all good stuff. The point is it's a little bit of leg lime disease right. You'd not sometimes if this were easy. You wouldn't be listening to this right now. You'd be out doing your normal life and you wouldn't have any problems lime disease. He's throws you curves again and again and again. That's why you need the plan but also you need to take care of yourself and your spirit in your heart and not it overwhelmed the start doubting what you're going to do. I had a plan for the pump. It was a great plan until it wasn't and something failed on it. That was completely -pletely unpredictable like the threatening came out of the pump itself was like how did that happen. Even is like actually I was. I was worried went down there and tried to fix something in the middle of the night. That's what it looked like. It goes all the tools gone too but that didn't happen anyway. Am I rambling just bid little. I missed you all so much. They have to tell you what my stories since we've been away for how many weeks it is so welcome back. There's going to be the longest episode of Jurado ever so let's let's the longest guest intro intro ever. Hopefully we've at least entertain. You and you're laughing along with us. If you need help with your plumbing problems drop us in yeah yeah happy to give you free advice long distance pressure tank replacement plumbing good first name basis with all the plumbing guys at. Lowe's now thank you Joe. You're an immense help on Tuesday night or whenever that was all right so are we done. I think we're all right Stephanie. Sorry about this long intro. Really I love speaking with you. I hope we didn't chase everybody way. They really need to listen to you. 'cause it's an awesome interview and here's our interview with Stephanie Silverberg Stephanie. Hello this McKay ropy from lions radio. Hey McKay good to hear from you. I'm very excited aided that you reached out and offered yourself for the interview because what you said in your email really it touched me and it real you know I've been doing this now for high lost almost five years right almost two hundred fifty suits and and it seems it seems like yesterday that we covered you know gently some of the topics that you brought up in your arena mail and after the email and your passion is like you know what it's time we circle back to this house. It has been much too long long but before we get into that. Let's what's your personal story and then your entire family has line which is just. I can't imagine yeah. Let's just yeah touch briefly on that yeah for sure well first off. Let me just they I so appreciate you. You know you have been such a your show and you have been such a great support to this nine Enj- Ernie. you know probably like most people when you find out you have to leave it it. It's so shocking and overwhelming and you you know that the roadmap that you're created. It's really great too because you really don't know where to start. There's so many possibilities and they're they're not a You know a good support doctors to help you step through it. You kind of have to find your way and in your show has been super helpful for me in in doing just that so thank you We'll come help little juice for the juice for the juicer. A few for the fuel tank is we have been in a little bit of a slump recently to be honest and for how do we we re energize and keep this fresh for ourselves. We keep our interest and just hearing from you. Save that means really means a lot and I don't know if I can express that it short period of time but really really appreciate that well thank you It's so much to learn it when when finding disease and you don't have any medical support than It's really on you to learn and you don't even know where to begin and I. I didn't even know how I got to you but I was like. I got to start finding resources because I'm too sick to read. I'm too sick to go on the the Internet search but what I can do is listen so so that was done a lot of how I learned how to try different. PAP The different techniques different diets and for doctors in different everything so so yeah. I mean as far as myself I'm trying China. I was trying to think back here. I think it was about three years ago. and I absolutely sure for that. I would think with line and co-infections prior to that the doctor that I now here in I'm in Cleveland area and he seems pretty convinced that I've been bit by several six because of the amount of poor factions that I have but so there's a history beyond the sort of more acute history but let's just stick with the accused history because got an hour but there were about three years ago. I got really sick and no. I couldn't figure out what it was. I was supposed to go to the art museum with my children and my husband and a couple of friends and I go into the car. I had been feeling like I was going to pass out. I laid on the driveway because I couldn't breathe and I know if I'm cutting panic at half or what was happening but I had been feeling just completely exhausted. Lycos GONNA pass out for weeks and then it just finally flatlined me and of course you know we went to the emergency room and did all of that and they sent me home. They did the test. Were you know it's just panic yeah okay so this continues to happen to the point where I was unable to get out of bed for about three Fremont really panic attack. I know exactly right and and so support I couldn't. I couldn't work I had I hadn't tell my I'm a marriage and family therapist and the practice in Hudson Ohio and the Gal who practices at the front of mine and I was like Laura. I don't know what's going on but I can't function. I couldn't get out of bed. I could eat. I lost fifteen pounds. I do anything you can think of. I went in and out of Panko here and the I pretty much slept all day. I had extremely light society. I was just from a neurological. We'll stand point. I felt like I was going crazy. I would have bows of I don't know if it was actually a suicide -ality or intense anxiety but it felt like power surges and they would wake me up and I couldn't breathe it all. I did falsely it. Wake me up out of out of sleep into a panic attack and that would happen for about fifteen or twenty minutes and then it will pass though I knew that it wasn't a classic panic attack where you have a buildup and everything this is something that's clearly biological ray beyond what I'm aware of the therapist being interesting to panic. Let's pause there for a second because every time people bring this up I can't emphasize is it enough and that's this suicidal Ita Shins and thereby logical that happens when people get caution exactly exactly and so so important if you can keep that little bit of perspective and realize okay. This isn't me who wants to kill myself right. It's my crazy by just says okay so much damage. Let's take you out of the gene pool and that's not that's not a good idea right. It's it's the information the buzz it's what's going on absolutely it is a total neurotransmitter imbalance to the map but and and you know and I am a therapist. I'm looking at somebody. They're suicide alley potential. I'm watching this buildup. I know what I'm looking at and so that's why this was so bizarre I would never my life boat this way and in Com for both of which fifteen minutes and then lied and that went on for couple of weeks the I went to my primary care and he you know told me he wanted to put me on Zoloft and you know maybe a little less than in the meantime and and of course I went my round of endocrinologists colleges and rheumatologist and I live near Cleveland Clinic and I actually. FX just leave doctor has been in even do line pat and I said negative for line so I I I found that functional medicine doctor near me and I thought he did my kaolack resort resort and fill it went and he said I'm not exactly sure what is going on with you but you're five Roy. Levels are all over the place you're you've got all kinds of bizarre bloodwork going on so we just need to try to get you back out and so it would kind aimed of about a year to getting to the point where I felt like I could be able to consistently ah go work and I don't even work fulltime now because I'm not capable so then actually it was a year later when I when I was thinking how you know maybe I should check out Cleveland Clinic there functional medicine because I know they have a department and it might be covered by insurance so there and I sat now with my doctor and she ing listen to me and her by story and they did all the blood work and everything and and she uh I really think this is lined and I was like live is what I hadn't even heard of that. What are you talking about landed and she said Yeah I think that so you have this for a long time so she said we need to do some blood work to to see and Sushi drew some blood and recentered and then of course low behold she came back positive positive not just arrived but for young be young and Bartonella reclusiveness and who the kicker is she said looking who've gotten mine and this is really bad and I can't treat you have to go find somebody to treat you and I'm like okay. Did she say here I because I guess she could only treat me for thirty days without cycling and I I she wasn't able to buy standard bidding play Sandra she wasn't able to treating further and she wasn't unable to refer me out to Dr. Because God has eighty seven even really so that that it could refer a lot. That's brutal yeah yeah. It is brutal brutal and my husband and I were you completely overwhelmed but she was able to say he looking oh you can check out the grover. Lima Ryan you can check out these websites and they they are going to have people who align literate doctors near you so that's kind of what I did as well as like doing a search and I found in literature of course you know he's the only one in in in my faith and I'm aware of and my insurance won't cover it. I've been in deny through times but him but I also knew I also started thinking beyond that I was like wow you know my is on different types of neurological issues he's always had some difficulty difficulty in that way and my daughter has had some really strange stuff go on when she was little like foreign five and I thought Gosh is it possible that they have minded these two and so I went to this doctor I said. Do you think it possible and she said yet and so we send outkast. We went got their blood. genetic town of Eddie goes had lime players and they also my son had gotten allies and my daughter has been January so and of course I'm reading more and going okay so when hearing out to him but this can be possibly half transmitted transmitted sexually and unveil Mica she's to get my husband wanted alone being did anti as line and Bartonella so sitting in a family. I'M GONNA work and everybody here has lime disease and co-infection so it was it was quite a journey and God bless my my local one litter doctor because he he was godsend in helping me age. Try go the right path and this out so we're all doing better. Ah None of us are leered none of our yield I didn't even know -bility but I I work. I'm able to have and decent days and though you know still on the jury were also on a jury or you know my parents thing that he is still because it in primarily in neurological often on our had. She's told him a lot of things dieting now eighteen PM attack that's hit her as well as G. I will tighten the fight here but at least now you know and all the doctors that create a panic attack even had AH dollars I went to who told me that I personally disorder and I was like Oh and because my husband had even been to a lot of these with me because he had said that was an appointment he actually painkiller prepared in my book and she's GonNa tell me I'm crazy as athlete. I can't imagine a watch you're in. You're you're in the medical field sort of what I mean. There's no way an endocrinologist would dare to make diagnosis more love out of their area of expertise right. There's no way that you say oh. You know you've got cancer. I'm going to refer you doc but but feel very confident saying you have a very difficult to diagnose psychiatric disorder right intentional I yeah I couldn't even believe she said that and and you know and I question you first. I saw that is that is that is a very difficult. That is very dear diagnoses that you get somebody even my deal right. This is not handed out like candy and she diagnosed me with that and I think dasent which pinch didn't even know the options were but I want it and my husband looked at me and he he was uh he was in complete shock and he just got up and he said we're leaving. This is the journey though I mean part of it is infusion attention of not having any clue what's wrong with you and this is that was all all those doctors before. I actually figured out I had like and and then the doctor's telling me that I'm afraid me and I'm so sick that I started thinking. Maybe are seen something that I don't see it. Just doesn't make any sense tonight actually another whole practitioner in Cincinnati no a little bit about this so let's I also WANNA pause here. Your family's got line. Did you guys go camping on like a mouse nest or were held what I know. It's pure speculation. But what do you think happened. Yeah well truthfully. I don't know we can only speculate on as for myself. There are many places I could have picked up wine. I mean before I was a therapist. I did musical tater so I I tour and I lived in. What's the connection between musical theory and lime. I got here this well. It's more about where places but my career at that time of me you know I lived in places places where and I was out in the wilder then you know I've I've eventually lot of of there's been a lot of either to me from me who have come in contact with ticks and then aware at all you know and so far as far as my doctor is concerned. He says look look. We know that it can be passed to Davies and that it quite possible that that is how they have to take this up because as we I. I don't know because that's we aren't. We don't go camping. We don't you know I mean. We live pretty sheltered life. I mean go to a park or you know go on a hike but we're not like I don't. I wish I can answer that for you yeah. I was GonNa ask you that hey we do. We have three cats inside. Inside outside of just inside is kind of never know there's so many things. I'm never going to get answered and I think that that hard the journey that that everybody was lying have to deal with it. There's tiny questions that have to go because you don't have the energy that take everything down radical yeah. It's true where you put your energy. You know that's so true but this you might know the answer to was there a GI occur the ronaldus flare well. I you know it was a very high stress time. There were a lot of things going on. We had just moved to a new house and I had it just shifted proactive and I was waiting for my racing to be got under the practice well. I can walk there with insurance companies. They're waiting period. WHO's quite a lot of stress load that really try. It seemed to quipped trigger of really earning. Its surface for sure for sure yeah. That's very common. I believe just leap deep warm all stress and whatever you know maybe even lime secondary right may be a virus gets foothold I and weakens things and a Sir cast you know we don't know that we'll never know that's why it's that constant constant delicate balance between keeping your foot in your in your own health and maintaining that enough that your immunity has the upper hand hand over all the bugs that are out and then you just go down and people who like me who are dealing with these you because of issues really go down and take a world time destroy go back up to find that Dallas again and and and you know like a fear of myth certainly my journey informs what I see the and it has really changed my perspective on my work rush much bigger now so it's talk about that because I think that's fascinating yeah well. I think the hard part is now. It's GonNa things where you can't on know what you know and sometimes wish you put because part of the trouble that are now hey in my practice that odd how this old different level biology physiology functional national matterson environmental happy just from my own research and study and getting tentative myself my bra that inform the way that I the my patient now though I see their clinical the issue but I also see deeper level of something that I have my hands tied around because I don't have any type of certification vacation or ability to you know treat or help. I E different levels of toxicity acidity that are very biological that are absolutely contributing to the clinical issues that I see in the room the anxiety desiigner the panic attack the depression. I see these things are so connected now. I just didn't get it before I got sick. That's kind of the goodness of bad news is my hands are tied on that level to help so my sort of inbetween that I have always copies of jaffer emphasis questionnaire and if I see you already got you know angering into some of the things environmental dealing with I'll give them an end and I'll take us home and fill it out and if you score is high then you know with. Maybe a doctor to get you know officially after you so that's about as far as I can take it. When it comes to helping people from that perspective from physical assessment it's not perspective but I can certainly go in and start doing the work that is been psychological excessively when you have somebody dealing with mine and and the top of the food chain with that is just giving people permission to take care of them so so slow down to have some stuff here because as we all know stress overwhelm our perspective perspective on all the things that we think are super important to do these are the things that waist down and let the two between back doc and help the that's a big teeth of what I start doing is really helping people decide what are important in their day and what's not they can slow down and restroom. They need to rest and take breaks and not doing this or not doing that because it's not super important because it just takes too much energy so that's just a generalized good therapy there. That's not even indigenous any type of crisis Aziz of course the important activities but just in general therapy is teaching people to take care of themselves so many people just it's just a well-meaning our rooms overwhelming and we get caught up then that's when we get worse so it's just westbound mindfulness around that if the addiction I'm GonNa go off. Track here and be your career coach cheerleader. That's better I bet as your healing journey continues and your energy returns and in your capacity for creativity and thinking return that you will find a path that integrates both sides of these whether you call yourself functional counselor or nutritional form some they'll be something that you do and it's about time we have separated out. You know it's bad enough that we've separated out the body but we've separated out the mind and the body is just it's just silly. There's a wonderful wonderful and it's probably twenty years old now written by Antonio Damasio and he's like this super genius neurologist PhD md you know M. P. H. Probably you may even be a psychiatrist. Everything else and it's called Descartes's error and basically Siklie goes traces back the history so they cart was in trouble with the church and went back then when trouble in the church they were going to put you in a pile of sticks burn you so it was a big deal and he said look look look. All I WANNA do is explore. This heap clay called the body. I have no interest no interest in the spirit you asking that so he he created this split in order to save his life. It's basically and that didn't happen any other culture. Now it's created an amazing opportunities to move forward and look at things like we look at things but it's also created the smallest Kadhamy between mind and by and I'm sure you deal with in your practice all the time and and I by people with a lot of them have this the same issue as I should be strong enough. My mind should be strong enough to overcome this whether it's my fatigue Gurmai suicidal thoughts thoughts or whatever it might be paying even just pain and walked the Mafia says is we forget that it's a two way street that everything goes into our brain goes through our body I and so we're feeling our physiology absolutely affects. What's what's going on inside of rain absolutely absolutely I and the other piece important with people in it. Even it's backing up you know the piece about tuning into you know what's below your head because we are so generally speaking as a society frenetic and out of our body that it's hard to be led into mm self care as what you actually need because we are so off from the neck down so. I never be peace in my friends. They I try hope in general is tell me what it means that you've got to start listening. You gotTA start figuring out how to hear it 'cause we are so not society. That is a tough to doing that. Were just falling twenty or so and yea yeah absolutely another good book that in the very beginning my first functional medicine doctor gave me was no before marching in. I don't know if you're familiar with that or not one that kind of report this mind audio connection and how trauma and you were upbringing affect everything colors everything. I'm always telling my but not doing right now. Makes Perfect sense in the context of the life you've lived up until now but we figure out what those over and covert rules ideas off drives are that can help you change. Wow also part of like you know the jury of trying to slow everything down and better self care and you know better how to changing what you thinking and you're sending them out yes so well said I was in Denver the past week Bob Miller's Conferences Environmental Pucks and Dr Nathan was was there and he has a book that is published in the past year impact we interviewed him and he you know to call toxin so he goes over mold the disease and EMF and I think a couple of the ones that I forget but he's basing his work on on an belief that research his name is Navy L. Whoop the idea. It's called the cell danger response and it's the modern earn version of ancient wisdom it just understanding it through how we now understand biochemistry and genetics and epigenetics and and things like that and associates exactly what you're talking about the and we talked about in the functional fielding. Turnip field for decades is there's a memorized Raleigh. The cells have a memory and saying yeah absolutely so it's not even the cells themselves. It's also the tissues and the responses that the body has and basically even after you take away the response of the the triggering event whether it's older lime or all of the above. Let's step one if you can't get rid of the trigger right if you're living in an abusive household and the the father's alcoholic back then the child's GonNa be traumatized all the time no matter what you can't heal and Bodley dangerous to ask them to try to become a normal human being in that situation do the same for the body to yet to remove all the stuff but then once it's removed right once the bother goes to jail the child's still traumatized your the body still traumatized and it's just waiting for any hint of something that smells like looks like seems like the original original trigger and it'll get fired up all over again absolutely absolutely and when I'm working with with folks if I always you know good point at that is that I was so if you can send yourself into a cashback right here in beautiful airfield with me. I'm just thinking of something thinking of a trauma interp- hat. It's not like it's happening now. Because that is how stronger minded by connection connection is letting precede in what your body believes as real as it relates to your perception of reality not necessarily league reality because reality you sitting alone. You just have one. She knew at night the temperature in here's pretty everything's income but if you have to do that trauma none of that matters is reviving going through upon what you're including your brain in boxes. It's that moment there was just no way to connect by an absolutely trauma responded to for sure if mom and the ad is our taller and you know little boy is every day daddy's home from work Dan those after mom oh you know go to the doctor and cookies in the oven. So that happens enough. We're now smoking's talking's combined with that phone experience you know cookies and you'd have a panic attack and figure out why and it's also ooh neat and date in the south then. I'll never in central nervous system absolutely and there's different types of techniques host to news their offense can use NPR which is sort of a specific needs to try to release at trauma aw from the system which could be very very helpful for people but you know on my next step here in my line. Journey is going to be doing any hoppers program. They they do restructuring 'CAUSE I. I feel like that. That's Kinda aware. I not just from this whole traumatizing event because I really feel like there is to T. V. I have wrong the whole jury. It's just fun praising overwhelming and just he can't integrate whoa fan interviewed Hamari to an who's a lovely could grief. She's either Norwegian or Swedish somewhere from up there may be Danish and we've interviewed her two or three times once a long time ago and then she contact me said I need to talk about this in which he's talking about is she went through the narrow reprogramming program and that made all the difference like Shanti had been on a million supplements have been doing this and that and I finally got my brain calmed down and I'm okay. I can't believe it. We have to look at the different levels right. You can't only look at the genetics. You can only look at the infectious agent agents. You can only look at the psychological. You can only look at your gut your thyroid hormone hormones. You have to look at all of it right. That's Horowitz idea right absolutely and and I think the big Pete is so important for people were may get as low I have been in many people on your show and then people listening has is you really gotTa. It brings me to your knee. You know it kind of got a letter bomb. Drop out and then he's gotTa rebuild that I find that in just observing people who don't let alone along the I I heard that they have a harder journey getting back up series living the ball pull out but that sounds really scary I now so what do you mean 'cause. It means something very specific to you. I think it's you're actually talking technically Mickley but what what the ad that I mean we have these ideas of what we need to do in the world in order to have value and all the things that we need to do to keep our house in order and our life in order relationships in order and a lot auto times with people in Bangalore his talked about this type A. Personalities and are that they're they're alive the culprits for this stuff so it's sort of a reflection on allowing yourself to just not to just not to just focus on you and just the a very basic like what I was sick. I couldn't make meals. I couldn't make healthy meals. I make cookies so the PTA. I couldn't even go to work work. I could clean my house. I couldn't take care of things my husband and they take care of the bills. I couldn't do any and it really. I believe that my bottom dropping out okay so I can't do anything now so what Hound Y. What can I do. What now that I get well. What do I how do I wanNA rebuilt like what is important to me then. I'm doing and and that's that's that biting journey contraception. I mean you know there's then many. Sp How on on on the show and probably many people who it's this is a terrible horrible situation goes for sure without a doubt it none. My wife is better. My priorities are better mind. Values are better now. It caused me like it kind. Give me to the ground wants me to reassess my values that some because I couldn't function the way I was functioning before so I had to let things go and I had to set what was important to hang onto and so it's very deliberate now and that you've you Kinda cool war. It does make sense and was this just a complete. Leading goal is like Oh thank goodness it's gone or was it. Did you mourn your life. You more near what you used to be able to do. Did you was there. You know we talked a little bit earlier about grief yeah well. I don't think I'm more that because it kind of feels pretty free and it wasn't a conscious thing this. I'm like flexing on it now but truly this came out of survival mode. This is very what what what I was doing was just simply surviving and now report track and I was really pulling things that were important to me but at the time it was like okay okay. I need to cook their okay. I need to spend time with my children. You know everything is wiped away and the author of the knee and that kind of I haven't been putting one foot in front of the other. Is You know what are the things that are important to me now at mom as a woman the wife as a you know imagine feeling therapists and so now my world has come together in a new way where onto the the components it components for my path that I taught I needed to do all those taken away That's what I was saying. Everything now. It's choice and that kind of a coolest rain today you know the people do talk about a created life right in and choosing that thing so it's interesting that you went and this probably you from your training. I would imagine that you said Okay Right now. What's the most important thing in charge of that right and then after that's okay now what's the most important thing right now oh too bad. I can't do it eight things. It's just like what's the most important thing right now. Oh that's right. It's putting putting that one neck not just put take the next step in the next step. And what are you going to feel that what important to like. I said it's power painting together. But how did you balance balance out. Everybody else's needs versus Joan because sometimes the next step is okay. I need to sleep for ten hours. You know my my kids want me to read them. Big Time story or something balanced folk. I have the most amazing husband that anybody that perhaps and I have somebody who breeds to believe me who understood going through and you know God's laughing. He has more patients in his kinky than I have in my whole finger in my Kabaddi and everything so he really has been a huge support in filling the gap or you know is my friend down the street. He says hey can I bring you. Jenner unlike you bet you can bring me you know so I had some good people in my life to in my like I said on my friend who owns a counseling center. She benso kindness. Gosh notaire stuff. Let us know we will handle your your patient load while you're gone. Let us know what you need so I am lucky that I have a lot of wonderful people in my life that have allowed me to to get doc. Gradually you know and I think I'm I'm fortunate with that. When you see people in your practice who don't have that signed signed type of support what you know what do you counsel well and that's a toughie because really really is about helping them find that and whether they find not in in a community in in in the school group a few friends an off that lives down the street a really great if we can bring like the husband and wife and and help them understand what's going on I certainly have a case right now where I have on Kathleen already and she's he's just lovely but you know her husband isn't super edger standing of her exhaustion and probably wine diagnoses and so it's really about her doing what she needs to do to take care of herself. Even in light of him not understanding and thank God awed. She has a friend who lives across the street. Who's amazing and there were like sisters and friends so it's really helping them to try to find the resources that are going to help them support themselves and also empowering them encouraging them to lead the way hey for them. Thumbs that nobody gets to tell you how many hours of sleep you need. You are actually the expert on that yourself. You know it you just me to step into the fact that Mauriac for it on you know and helping people understand what you need not looking for their approval. You know not looking at they don't understand then. Don't waste your energy because you don't have much put that energy into taking care view so it can it can be a rough rocky road for some folks but you definitely want to go in and try to help them find the support court and find the people who believe they're going through what they're going through even though they don't have a cancer diagnoses or they aren't walking around with a cap on their leg 'cause that's the most difficult part of this and what that Wyman co-infections side a and a lot of other chronic disorders visible road all around everything but hey if you have root that people will only have loop. I get it or you know you. You're you seem oh okay. We got that you know and that's okay. We understand you know you have that down but if you say chronic lyme disease the people don't even know what you're talking about so it can be very difficult and the super important that people when they get diagnosed diagnosed her field. They have this there with a good therapist to going to support and believe them because they need that a couple follow up questions and but you've said that so beautifully and I think you've gotten to the heart of the matter there so let's enter conversation at some point the only muddy the water by talking more amazing job of summing up you know not only to difficulties but really the the first step is like if you don't have an ally ally in this journey. You don't have a buddy. It's going to be long and difficult yeah definitely and that can be found online online support groups because I know there's a lot of those going on and you don't need everybody in the world to join you really don't you just need a few people will who really get you and have your back and are there for you and that that's that's. GonNa be you know it's going to be the floor. The visas foundational now want to give your contact information if you don't that's fine well yeah I mean I can. I know that we are living I have aware of too many people who are even aware of product line disease so I don't know if they are a lot of therapists in my area that understand that the way I understand this specific it different from other chronic illnesses so certainly if somebody wants to find me day can get my Let's see maybe we can. Just give my email without the idea okay so you can email me. The Verb Stephanie at Yahoo Dot Dot Com that S I L V E R B Arch E. S. T. E. P. H. A. N. E. DOT COM and I work work in practice in Hudson so but my that my married name is still reverb in my practice I go by heck my maiden name so that's the my license so I figure just do that there so so certainly they can reach out and you know. I if I can help that kind of how am I goal and feeling when I am hoping that I'm an upswing. Does you just never know that but certainly part of what I feel. My purpose is in getting that in being able to to help someone to help somebody who's going through this because it's so scary so devastating and it's so confusing it's just overwhelming so many different ways so if this conversation today can help normalized things for people or go how that feels. I'm not the only one that feels that way good or however it might help I just I just hope it does thanks so much. You've been lovely. Oh thank you once again. I so appreciate you who and Lime Ninja Radio and I talked to my kids and my and my and my daughter who's tends she said will am. I Align Ninja. I said You BETCHA Aja. I'll make sure I said you couple stickers. That'd be awesome all my Ninjas in this house three three. It was really lovely hearing Stephanie Story End. Yes you know something. She said towards the beginning when she really it seemed like her health started getting kind of foundation again when she first went to that functional medicine doctor and I think that just goes goes to show that a lime journey does not necessarily have to begin with that with the diagnosis very good point that you know she's she's talking about that first meeting with the functional medicine doctor and that really emphasizes is that doing something right now that you know what to do is okay and it was because of that she was able to get back to work and it was because of meeting that first person that she was able to get on that path where she did get that eventual diagnosis and she did get those answers serse the basics are the basics right and one thing functional medicine is good at is getting down to the basis okay. What is this person needs to do to be healthy. No matter what so diets foundation run you gotta get the sugar out. If you're sensitive to gluten dairy you gotta get that out of your sentence sensitive sensitive to legumes peanuts get those out nightshade right the basics and then basic nutrition getting the stuff the supplements the extra extra support that you need in and then the functional things. SAUNAS sleep sunshine appropriate exercise all those things that's a that's a really good point. Aurora and it's a reminder to all bus who get focused on okay. Let's go kill the bugs. Kill the bugs antibiotics herbals else Rafe what else you got ozone heat therapy what else we got bugs are in me. Yeah get the mold all that kind of stuff oxley. Get it out. Get it out get out. We don't forget just the basics. The basics are so important and they may take you eighty percent of the way they're really and truly and then the other twenty percent is the the the focusing on the specific things now that that said that said Dr Nathan at the conference with Bob Miller talked about the cell danger response and the point they bring up with the cell danger response wants is if there is something consistently triggering your immune system the danger response within your cells. It has to be removed so eventually finding minding whether it's lime the co-infections and anything else that hidden. It's critically important to get rid of that so then you can begin combing your body down but you're right you. You can still make a ton of progress even if you're not one hundred percent sure so don't say oh. I'll clean up my diet. Once I know exactly what it is go on the Bartonella died. I had no clean up your diet now. The basics can't wait. I think that's covers it. All I think so interesting to our thanks for bringing that up all right. Let's see here. Oh Yep so if you want to get a copy of a lime journey Rodak right now. It's just a graphic organizer really something to kind of help. You wrap your mind around your own journey. We'll get more details as time goes on and really build that out into a course or something like that but just visit our website Lyman j dot com. You'll see a button that says extras and it's right there. Just download it and put it to best use that you can if if you have some feedback for us just go ahead drops a line at Lime Ninja radio DOT COM feedback at Lime Ninja radio DOT com. We've got some excellent suggestions on guests and we're working to bring those people on board and interview them so keep those suggests incoming. They're awesome. We Love Them. Keep them coming and if you like what we're doing here at Lima Jurado hit the subscribe button on the bottom of your podcast APP that way you won't miss an episode and if you really like what we're doing leave us a review yes. It helps us reach more people just like you and your the people we want to talk to. We love talking to you as you can. Tell by my plumbing stories. If you're still here we really really love you and Leslie as as you longtime lime niches no this podcast would not be complete and less. Aurora left you with a Lime Ninja factor the day so what has your research shown this week. Did you know Ninjas. Ken unscramble eggs into radio is a purely public broadcast and is not intended to be personalized medical advice for any any individuals specific situation. Each individual's medical situations unique line manager radio should not be relied upon android considered as personalized medical advice on minded radio's not licensed render medical bite and should be considered simply the public opinion of lime major radio and its guests recommendations on specific treatment options are not intended to address any listeners particular medical situation as always contact your physician before considering any new treatment.

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Hour 1: Brady McCollough & Calls

The Paul Finebaum Show

00:00 sec | 4 months ago

Hour 1: Brady McCollough & Calls

"Crude oil is crude. Natural gas is pure. That's why Pennzoil's based oil is made from natural gas, not crowed, gives you unbeatable engine protection. The proof is in the pennzoil based on sequence for aware test using SA Five W. Thirty. Pride Passion and patron tree of college. Football leaves here the. Paul Finebaum show our one podcast every good afternoon and welcome. We've made it to the middle of the week, and maybe some positivity, only positive, only positive stories. That's our new motto here on the Finebaum show anyway. Welcome to the program. We have a lot to do a lot of great. Great guests will be joining us and your calls, but we begin with the headline. Many people especially. At Auburn never thought they would be seeing especially after Tommy. was fired in two thousand eight. He is the nominee. From the Republicans to head up against incumbent senator, Doug Jones that happened last night he routed the former senator and former us. Attorney General. Jeff sessions. It's It's still pretty amazing for those of us. WHO covered? and New, Tommy cover bill that He could very well be heading to the United States, Senate. He got a major endorsement from the president which helped carry him to victory. That's not all this going on in our little world. Speaking of The president, and maybe this time the vice president Mike Pence was in Baton Rouge yesterday. Listening to Lsu officials including coach. Saying we. Need football. Coach, oh. We all agree with you on that. Anyway. Everything is related to the season and including What's going on around the SEC as They're anticipating going to mostly. Conference Games only but some schools are looking for maybe a little bit of a window including South Carolina Ray Tanner talking about. Well. Why not keep coming on the schedule? Is just right down the road. Why do we need to get on a plane fly Arkansas Texas. Or somewhere else when we can take a bus and deal with. People in Georgia Florida. In Kentucky are also saying the same thing. And meanwhile college football coaches are very concerned about the spring. Bruce Feldman will join us a little bit later on. Will there be a mass exodus. If. There is a spring football tenure. All the best players leave Feldman. We'll tell us in about three hours. So that's where we are on this Wednesday afternoon. Also today, earlier today I should say Brian. Kelly was on. Get up Brian Kelly the Notre Dame coach talking about the prospects of the upcoming season. Everything is on the table at this point so I I. WON'T I won't get into the specifics because I don't know that anybody really has a great idea of what it looks like I know. There's some models out there certain way, but. I think what Jack is saying in particular is that the models of the professional teams will give us a better understanding of how are we going to delay this and try to play it in the fall or do we certainly have the just scrap it and then begin putting together something for the spring? Because look at the. We're GONNA play football this year. It just depends on when we're going to play football. Yeah I, I think we're coach meant to say we're going to play football sometime soon. whether it's this year or not. remains to be seen, but you folks out there know as much as we do here. And we will continue to hope we've got a few weeks to to see the numbers. Maybe reverse in the decision makers. Decide. We can do it so That's where we are mid week. Let's talk about the guest list, and then we'll get to your phone call. Eight, five, five, two, four, two, seven, two, eight five. Brady McCulloch great writer from the. Times will join us and then. We're really eager to listen to Dr Michael. SAGGY is one of the leading ID doctors in the country. We'll get his take on what it looks like. He has been consulting with a lot of people and really eager to hear from Dr Sag. John's Steinbrecher the MAC commissioner. His League has been hurt probably the most from the big ten decision. And The aforementioned Bruce Feldman. Joining us a little bit later on on what a Spring League would look like! I mentioned the phone number. You WanNa get in good time to do it. Eight, five, five, two, four, two, seven, two, eight five, and let's talk to Eastwood first up eastward. Great to have you on, thank you. Pay. Hey! There got a question for you. So if they do this conference on the Kim game schedule, dont`a college football season have a fourteen week window, and they give each conference additional four weeks to move gains around if they need to. That is correct I. Think this year it's a thirteen week window. Last year was fourteen. I think there's only one by week. But. If you eliminate two games the the best. This is gas, okay, but the best gashes. The season would start late so I think he would lose week one and two off the board so I'm not sure you'd have as much wiggle room as as previously thought. About the Games, they just do a college football playoffs in until your seeks or what they still do the regular games if the season was to go, I, mean again, everything opinion, 'cause the people that the ball. People tell you a different story. I, I don't see how the ball games are going to work this year I. Really don't maybe a you, but bowl games are heavily dependent on tourism on sponsorships, which they already have, but in ticket sales and Again, we're trying to predict four five six months in advance, but I think the bowl games look really bleak right now I know the playoff would definitely be part of it I would think you would see. The rose the sugar or the big balls. Maybe maybe even the one was, but I don't think you're going to see that many You know there's there's forty three bowl games We're talking number twenty to forty three. I have a hard time believing those games are in good shape. Thank you. Thank you very much for the call. Really do appreciate it, Yeah, it was just a minute ago. That the famed Rose Bowl parade determined roses parade, which if you've never seen in person is pretty extraordinary. has been called off. The some people were panicking that the Rosebowl had been called off. No, no, no, no games have been called off yet, but the of roses parade. Is Off. It will not be the only thing canceled. I'm in is up next in Montgomery Alabama. I'm an welcome grab yuan. Great thing they take you me the rose. They're not having the parade now. They're not. They're not having a parade. In California. Where all the pretenders live I mean you know that all the people that kind of control everything they're not going to have a parade. That just sucks Paul. You don't how you not bad. That sucks. That sucks as bad as Jim in Tuscaloosa phone call. And as we speak right now, they're breaking ground on six fingers over Alabama. You know and and they did find a job for Jim. He's going to be the pro permanent kid in the lost and found. You know he's not much older than thirty. You know the by the way. Sessions I don't know where sessions went to. School doesn't matter because he's political. Career is over but doug. Jones is a dyed-in-the-wool Alabama fan, so this is a classic case in Alabama in November of a Alabama versus Auburn and Question Tub got a lot Alabama votes And I'll tell you what it'll be. Tell you where it'd be November Paul. It'd be seven fingers. In. You know us just talking about the the players. The coaches not wanting to do the spring games because the players would leave I thought they all had recruits I thought there was a top one hundred creating list. I thought you had backup tackles and guards and running back you. Know you don't follow me. Don't follow college course, but we're talking about it all. We're talking about the the best players, not number two. So so everybody is on the same page. They can all lose their best players, and those with the really really I mean the wind it could play. They cry in the most aren't there. Here's the deal. If Alabama loses his best players, the second-string will be even better. Oh Hey. We've heard that story before and here we are. That's that's what really concerns. Nick Sabin and Bama's to most is going to be two years of Auburn, bragging rights, and they nothing and tub avail with seven fingers to my goodness. That covers go. Make us all as you say. Auburn finally got a big win yesterday I'm proud of. PAT is up next How are you pat? I'm doing fine ball. I've got a human nature. Thing to talk with you about I'd been arrested in your take Jeff sessions was probably the consummate the United States senator, representing the sovereign state of Alabama, for as long as I can remember. twenty years or more mork. And and and. He supported the president from the very first, and and he did the right thing and recused himself in a matter. That anyone. Who knows knows the facts would say yeah. You probably ought to recuse yourself and he lost the Tommy Tub reveal. and. And that's fine, and he lost five hundred twenty thousand votes I think. and he will face the the democratic. Senator more But Tommy Tub reveals. Qualification for being a united. States senator is is only qualification. Is He won the Republican? primary, and he has no other false occasion to be a United States senator and that's sad. An S. my comment on on. We'll let me say this. by the way of a friend just said that sessions went to. Huntington College Alabama Law School. Jeff sessions was a easy. There are three or four term senator from Alabama think three terms maybe four. Donald Trump's first big, most important supporter and He. He made a mistake he he was offered the attorney general position and he took it and. It turned out to be a disaster as many. People who have worked for trump found out. and. That's a fact. It's not a political statement. Agree with you one hundred percent on that I made the comment to my wife when he took the job He's GonNa Rue the day that he did that. Well, you know I, mean He. The problem is You know I mean trump did him in which is the president's prerogative But nobody made anybody vote for trouble He won the election he he didn't. I interviewed Tommy a couple of months ago, not in an interview on by interviewing about a year ago and I saw him a couple of months ago. He had one kid. His campaign slogan was with trump which by the way. successful in in Alabama, now nobody knows what. Four months from now we'll be like. He. The Democrats have very little chance of winning the Senate in Alabama the only reason Doug Jones one. is because he was running against arguably the worst candidate in the history of. Of, elections Roy Moore so I mean w will be favored to win. I think you're correct. And just an observation of human nature. Jeff sessions could have done a very very good job of representing the state of Alabama. No matter who want wins the election in November. Yeah I think I think. I think sessions. I interviewed him a few times I never could quit. I think he was an Auburn Fan, but I. Do Know Doug I've known Doug Jones for many many years. He used to be a regular on the show Pat. He does not hide. His allegiance is Crimson Tide Fan all the way? And, it'll that'll be interesting to watch Alabama versus of Auburn for Senate suit. Yeah, the most coveted endorsement in Alabama this fall. We'll be from Nick Sabin. You're absolutely right, Hey! Thank you thank you. One day I will share my No I won't elections over I'll share. My thoughts on that. Because Tibur Ville was was not was pretty not shy about his thoughts on Nick. Sabin after he arrived Pretty much ended temples career at Auburn We'll take a break more to come more of your phone calls when we come back. You're listening to the Paul Finebaum show podcast. Hello this is your apartment. I need some favors from you. Your cat keeps rubbing against the kitchen. Island and I can't return the favor. Can you give her extra pets for me after that? Could you bundle your renters car insurance with Geico? We could save money and it's easy to do online and one last thing. Could you leave the TV on during the day I? Need to catch up on my soaps. GYCO for bundling made easy. Go to GEICO DOT COM today. GEICO gets you access to licensed agents. Twenty four seven, which means that Geico is always there for you. If only everyone was always there for you, like your mom when you fill out really really important paperwork on the first day of a new job name, check birthday. She'll securities thing. Hey, among what is my social security number? Mom Mom? Okay, let's. Zero zero one seven pound gem Hashtag Geico always there for you with savings and twenty four seven access to licensed agents and welcome back great to have everyone here. Somebody asked a minute ago. About Tommy Qualifications He is a legal citizen. Of the United States and he is going to be thirty years old to be a US senator. If you start going around Washington in finding out who had qualifications you pretty much have to empty out the House of Representatives in the Senate. So as long as you're citizen, I think you're okay in this country Let's continue with more phone calls. An Andrei is next in Atlanta Hello Andrea. Coach. Can you hear me coach? Yeah sure can great lesson By Call Code let me tell you a little spirit. It happened to me Friday I called a company data. Cordelia Georgia named diamond turf. awesome saw so. To the owners Joseph and Monte, Ho it so as I was offered my son from down mature Mr. asked me he said I. You Andrei from the poll. Show. That's amazing. We're we're wanted US again under. It's called dumb and Turf Accordia Georgia and okay. Mr Martin Horn. Man I know Oh, Paul found long I listen to him every day and I drink. That is great I'm so glad to hear that you. Want to share that with the. Measure you, but thanks for taking my call coach. Allan thank you that you made by day Andre. Thank you so much, that is fantastic. Let's let's go to to Keane in California and you are next up a hello to king. Saul. They're doing today. We are doing great. Thank you. So I just wanted to talk about the future of the Georgia football program of moving forward. Do you think Kirby Smart? Is GonNa. pull out a few rabbit out of the hat, and maybe when national championship Georgia and the next two years. I do I think it's hard to hard to quantify what year will be, but I. I am convinced Kirby, smart. Is Going to win a national championship. Thank you Paul. I I just WANNA save before I. Go up, go down. Thank you great. We were working the west part of the western part of the country. Carol is up next in New Mexico Carol thanks great to have you on. Thanks. Paul and so glad to see back on TV. Thank you for sharing? Listened on the radio, but I liked the TV A lot. Better now I wanna ask you something. Delight here, someone. Yesterday, say that it would be a very tough thing to ask eighteen to twenty one year old athlete to make a decision whether to play or not. I think I. Heard that Yes. Well you know when I heard that I said you know what. I know generations. Eighteen twenty one year olds. We'll make a decision of what to do. In the Foxhole and the jungle and the desert sort of the Middle East. You know that's a lot of little snowflakes. Talk that eighteen twenty year old athletes in this generation are gonNA. Tough time deciding whether the. This guy, a violent or not. Don't you think that's just like yeah I? Really I haven't talked to every college football player in the country, but the ones I have talked to or. talked to their parents. I haven't come in contact with a single one who does not? Want to play football this fall. I'm glad to hear that because I get really worried about this country when I think that the young I saw on the news right before we came on I. Think it was a teacher in California, who said We're somewhere was California. Who said they were all doing? All the teachers were were writing out there wills because they were afraid. They were GONNA. Die This fall. You know this is so ridiculous, and and when you talk about safe houses in colleges, I remember. During the two thousand sixteen election, someone sprayed the name trump on wall at emory university and some kids had to go to safe house because it. You know we're in trouble. Well Yeah I mean I I don't want anybody to take this the wrong way, but we are in trouble. Agree with you on that and I've lived a while and I've seen a lot of things both as a kid and a grownup This is one of the strangest It's the strangest period. Of My life and in your life and we'll get through it. It's going to be A. Murky at times, but I feel pretty confident. We'll see the other side. Hey, thanks for the call. Really appreciate it. We're heading to. California and talk. Thank you very much great to have you on Carol. We're back Brady McCulloch of the La Times. He covers college football. What else? He'll join US next. You're listening to the Paul. FINEBAUM show podcast. For businesses around the world today isn't to restart. It's a rethink that's why they're partnering with IBM to Change How they burn from supply chains to customer service. Let's put smart to work visit IBM DOT com slash smart to learn more, and we welcome you back in show great to have everyone here and a lot to do today, and really looking forward to our next guest, the occasion to get to know very McCall over these last few months and years. He's a fantastic reporter for the La Times Brady. Thank you very much for being with us. I WANNA. Get to the college football piece in a minute, but you I saw something that you tweeted. I think it was overnight. when Tommy wwl won the nomination in Alabama and I'M GONNA I'm GonNa have you set the story up? You were KC star. Is that correct? Yeah. It was at the Kansas City Star, then covering a Ku and You know it was after the the man Gino dismissal so to speak And I I don't know what brought me to decided to call Tommy Tucker Bill but. I just I just felt like. You know when you're doing the coaching search thing. It seemed like he'd be a logical person. I don't remember getting a tip or anything. I just call them up and and he said I remember. I'll never forget this I said. How's it going and he said? Just, another day in Alabama. and so you've got a huge. Out of and then yeah, each straight up campaigns for the Kansas. For fifteen twenty minutes, he was ready to come to Lora and And get rolling again, but as far as I know, he was He was never contacted by it so I. If I'm doing my math, he he had been fired from Auburn. This was before he went to Texas Tech I presume. So he was yeah, he was. He was out of work. I mean he was basically. I don't know what he was doing in Alabama. I would talk to him myself like you did, but I I. It's just amazing to think about because that it'd be with all due respect. That's one of the least desirable jobs in college football. Yeah, but they you know they paid her Gil. You know two million, which at that point, two millions nothing now, but at twenty ten, Tom, that was. Pretty solid takes okay. He was willing to pay. And and I guess you still want to coach, so yeah, he he talked it up pretty bad. Well, the good is it gets to Washington. Maybe maybe he can enact some change helping college football because He's always been somebody who. Who who knows opinion Brady goes talk about the college football season. I know in California things are turning for the worst governor making a declaration the other day from. Does that have any impact on what? Ucla Southern, cal and others are going to do this fall. there to this point You know the look actually USC they went ahead and moved into their phase three. You know everyone's got their different phases and what they mean. This one means football players from outside the region We'll have returned to campus now. Nothing's mandatory. Because of the act. Twelve announcements workouts are not mandatory, but USC has begun bringing back all of football players, and maybe not all of them have returned, but but they are definitely coming back USC had been pretty cautious and has been pretty cautious, overall with their with their restart to the point he had. Just you know in the last days you know they finally got. you know some players from outside the southern California region, actually returning to campus permanently, so it doesn't look like newsome's order has affected USC and then just trying to inch toward more of a and more normal workouts. before I get to the second part of this one. Ask you a about USC and J. T. Daniel. Who generally got Who's now eligible a Georgia again? A lot of assumptions here, but. How good is he as a quarterback? Yes so I actually covered I was on the USCB for his freshman year. Which obviously was a? Tough Year for the program, went five and seven but jt. I mean for the moment. He walked on campus It was clear he was the best quarterback program now that that also reflected on the guys that were there when he came to campus and. Getting Jack Sears which are not USC caliber. quarterbacks especially, but JC can do it all and I think he was set up to have a really big year in the air raid with with Graham Harrell got basely wally pipped by Vicadin flow us and now now getting that that clearance the play Georgia I mean that's you know the the question there is you know for sure is the knee and if there is a fall season, which of course. Course while we're talking, you know who knows There's a fall season could as knee is ready to you. Know really take him through a competition with a guy like Jamie Newman. WHO's already been there already been? You know kind of becoming leader I assume within the program but if the season gets pushed back, the it gets pushed back, that's just more time for GT's knee and his health become less of a concern. Talking to Brady McCulloch of the Los Angeles Times Brady Let's let's let's look back a little bit. Take the camera back a little bit on on the season. We know what the PAC twelve has decided it is complex year a different region than we are Just give us the view from out there what you hear from from officials from sources and and where do you think we're going here over these next few weeks? Yeah you know it's interesting that you know? Yeah? Obviously, it's a different different political climate in California, but this you know the numbers climbing like they are in California. shows you that this point with the virus. This is a red state blue state. You know issue you know this is. This is affecting everybody in California. you know eleven thousand new cases today I think a new record I just saw that. you know there's there's a lot of There's a lot of concern and you have I mean heck. The Larry Scott Scott Cove it I? Mean How about that you know? They announced the PAC twelve move into conference only games in thirty minutes later. Oh yeah by the way Larry. Scott Has Kovin you know looking around the the conference. Oregon's governor just announce that mass are now required there. Are you know now limits on in-person groups of ten You've got the fraternity row outbreak at Washington, one hundred fifty one students. is the latest number I saw. You know but within the programs themselves They're restarts. There have not been any big. You know outbreaks like you've seen in other parts of the country so so far, the programs have have acquitted themselves quite well. era Zona has crazy case numbers, but the there haven't been a ton of case. cases within the program and their restart so I think that. Within the programs themselves there's still some optimism but it's getting harder and harder to not have that kind of deep down gut feeling that. That this the the fall season, maybe maybe doomed as as we're hearing all around the country now. In in terms of the contingencies I'm you think we are down? Brady too. Late start. No start or spring I mean. Do you think there's many other choices out there? Now that the two of the big five have already shifted to conference only. No I. Don't I. Don't think there's any anything else you know. I don't know if you saw this, but I saw a a report. from two four seven, that did kind of throughout this that that Oregon and Utah had had now been scheduled for September twelfth as a extra PAC twelve game. That wasn't previously scheduled. If that's true I, find that very interesting that September twelve is where it's being added. You know when it you know. Maybe you would use that type timeframe to go grab a little more leeway with your your fall camp. Maybe star on the nineteenth, which is when USC and Stanford or so to play the fact that the twelve is the date you know gives me a vibe of okay like the PAC. Twelve is considering and thinking. You know pushing on here. you know as if camp can actually start and a lot of these programs and early August as expected. I think that you know the reason you go to conference only and I expect the other three to eventually get to this. Get to this place. Is that that you can? Really you almost create five separate schedules among the power, five leagues and each conference? Then it's up to each conference to figure out how to ban together and get some. Something close to resembling a normal amount of games, and over however long it takes if you need to take a break to if a if one game needs to be rescheduled and the certain week, everybody else plays on those two schools. Take a week off. If at the end of the season, they need to reschedule and play it out because it has a bearing on the conference championship. Play it at the end. You know once you get it. Get it to where it's just the conferences. They can all just figure out between themselves. How to get there, and and maybe one conferences finishing up around Thanksgiving 'cause they had you know didn't have any bad luck and another conference finishing up in December another maybe goes into the new year. Eventually they all get over the at the end of the Rainbow, and then you can try to put together some kind of a playoff field. Before you go? I saw the story earlier today that the tournament of Roses Parade has been canceled. That ain't not mean a lot of people on the east coast or in the South but How important is that And what does that mean two people of Southern California? That's that's a big deal. I hadn't seen that That's A. Yeah I mean. That's a big cultural marker and did some that they'd be so concerned. this many months away. to to go ahead and cancel that then. while. yeah, another chance to really think about that, but that's That's That's an alarming. Before you go, you did a really interesting piece a couple of weeks ago at the height of the national conversation. About social injustice, and you really did a deep dive on the impact that. degeorge Floyd Aftermath has had on college football. I'm curious after talking to people. Where do you think that is right now? I know I know. It's taking a little bit of a backseat as we you know focusing on covert in the season, but it doesn't seem like That story is going to go away anytime soon. Yeah, that's that's absolutely right ball and I think I I, still believe as I as I reported on that story that you're going to have a a wave of of athletes coming in making their recruitment recruiting decisions starting with this class at twenty twenty one. you know that that are going to feel like they have power and a realizing that the most power. They're gonNA have into the current structure of the NCAA. when they're making that decision, and how can you you know? Impact changes as a seventeen eighteen year old kid. You know other than saying you know I'm not. GonNa go. I'M NOT GONNA sign with a school who doesn't have an adequately convinced me that that they're taking so just racial injustice. Issues Seriously Well we see that bear out over time here and this crazy twenty twenty one class. It's going to have to make these decisions with AL, visiting campuses and things like that I mean. Yeah I. Mean we talked I mean it's. What Mike, Gundy's twenty twenty one recruiting class. Look like You know especially as this draws draws on the pandemic, so yeah I think this is something. To Definitely Watch. Brady McCulloch La Times Brady. Great to have you on. Thank you. Come back soon. Always always always cool to talk to you bet. We'll take a break more to come including a visit with Dr Michael Sag one of the leading infectious disease specialist. In the country we'll get his take on return to everything coming up here in about twenty minutes. You're listening to the Paul Finebaum show podcast. For businesses around the world, today isn't a restart. It's a rethink that's why they're partnering with IBM to Change How. They from supply chains to customer service. Let's put smart to work. VISIT IBM DOT com slash smart to learn more. And welcome back great to have you here. Dr Sag will join US shortly. Let's check in with Jim in Columbia. South Carolina Jim thanks good afternoon. Call you doing this afternoon. We are doing great. Thank you. Well, let me ask you a question Do you think if you WANNA point? If you're of the opinion that you want cards football to play? That, you're being wealthy and as a trump supporter. If! Because some hooker quote, trump is gonNA credit. For. Playing College football. And it will help him get reelected and as a result. The. Powers that be all the major networks. The newspapers media your network included. Or against playing college football, because it may help, trump get reelected. Okay. Let me Jim, just take one part of that and let's talk about it I you mentioned, ESPN and you already know the answer this, but I'll ask it anyway. Do you know what network has the biggest investment? In College football in the country all. Those college football yes, and. ABC PLUS SEC ACC. I mean it owns it. It's a multibillion dollar investment. So I have a hard time understanding I mean I i. See it every day, so I don't WanNA act like A. Virgin here about this topic of conversation but I think it's one of the most interesting conversations I see in social media is that? There are people in College football? Who wants to see College Football College football season cancelled. Point I mean I've but I was just. You know the guy. Let me, let me let me just say for personal standpoint, the regardless of WHO's elected president of the United States it's. It's not gonNA. Change my life one. Bit. Either I mean I don't want to say I don't care. But at this point I don't care enough to let that impact anything else I do or say. Okay well but I was just own or the guy on yesterday. Who would somehow trump was well that guy. I agree I interviewed him, so I'm responsible, but I had a very difficult time following his lodger. Okay but I was just of the to me. Junior guys you talked to every morning on the morning. Shows that are anti. You know to me that I think is just stupid. Even try well there. There is one there is one in particular now I mean I I do Depending on the day, a couple of different shows it, ESPN, but there's one host that it. It's almost as if he wants to burn the whole country down to make sure we're all safe. I mean it's like CNN just had someone a teacher from California yeah. And General making sure they have will only go back to school is aiding back to the classroom storming each. I I I saw that story as I was flipping channels down here. I thought that was ludicrous I mean. The bottom line is I mean I I'm concerned, and and a lot of people are concerned about the health and wellbeing of the country, and I'm particularly concerned about people that are suffering you know on on. UNMERCIFULLY because of where we are I. Mean I I mean. I. Go ahead. And I also wonder know Hell actor these test ads knowing though I mean I really do actually some journalism. The you know the the number here in the ninety percent I'll where it turns out there less than ten percent. That's why I asked the Commissioner of the other day about you know. What what what dad are you going to rely on before determining where we go next the good news about that questions, we have somebody who understands the testing procedure in protocol coming up here in about ten minutes. We'll talk to Michael Sag in the next hour. We'll be right back.

football Paul Finebaum United States California Brady McCulloch Alabama Football senator Auburn president Tommy. Doug Jones Senate Donald Trump Dr Michael Sag Jim La Times Georgia Bruce Feldman USC
A Smorgasbord Of Delight

Nerdette

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

A Smorgasbord Of Delight

"WBZ Chicago. I'm Greta Johnson and this is net. We're here to make sure you're ready for an excellent weekend. Think of this as another introverts convert's guide to the good life this week. We're going to talk about the future of Three D. Printing why you should throw a dinner party right now and you'll grammar nerds are going to be real pissed but we've got a great interview interview about how the Internet is changing the rules of language. And that's actually a good thing Alameda go all right. Let's get started so this week was a really big week for prizes. The nobels were awarded. I took some homemade pop tarts out of the freezer and blue some friends minds and in the literary world the Booker Booker Prize winners were announced. The Booker is super prestigious prize for fiction and it usually only just goes to one book each year but this year we have two winners Bernardine Evaristo one girl woman other and Margaret Atwood one for the testaments that means they're going to split the sixty three thousand dollar prize. Praise chairman. Peter Peter Florence said both of the winning books quote address the world today and give us insights into it and create characters that resonate with us he also said they were wonderfully compelling page turning thrillers. I read the testaments. We actually did a whole book club on it and we had a lot of opinions and so in fact at our listeners. Why is everyone drinking drinking glasses of milk constantly every three pages someone is offering someone else glass of warm milk? But we'RE NOT GONNA get into all that right now. I'll just check out the PODCAST. You can look for the episodes labeled book club in Super Nerdy News. Time has to unveil the world's largest three D. Printer the world's largest largest three D. Printer has created the world's largest three D. printed boat. And I am delighted so this boat is five thousand pounds. It's twenty five feet along kind of looks like something you'd go fishing off of and it was made at the University of Maine here with us from the university's advanced structures and composite center is Executive Executive Director Habib Habib. Hi How are you good. How are you thank you? So what was the process like for actually printing this like what does it take. How long does it take? What's what's the deal? We've been working on spending three years in and we we've been actually assembly since last summer and we got to the point about a month ago where we're ready to go go ahead and fire it up and and the question team was. What do we print I and we could go print something really small and or that would be kind of anti climatic or we can build something really big and see where the glass ceiling and we decided to print this boat so go bigger go home essentially clean and and it was around the clock? We had a night shift shift. We have day shift and and a lot of pizza delivery sue. How many pizzas did you go through the you know? Let's say we had five thousand pounds of composite was printed and and at least twenty five pounds of pizza so obviously this has a lot of implications for boat building specifically. But what do you think is the future of Three D. Printing in general like why is this important it does it speeds up innovation and we. That's never happened in the past. Ast How do you actually build you. I put I if you have if you have. If you're a designer you have an idea of value I prototype. You might take a year before you could see your first time with technology like this You know you can have your first prototype within weeks or less and being able to look at two or three designs in in a short period of time because you can print the holes in them and think what you like better better is can also reduce the cost of innovation and the speed of innovation. That's very cool. Is there something in your mind. That sort of like pie in the sky. Ridiculous amazing like you know. Are you gonNA are. y'All GONNA print a ferris wheel or something out there was. There's a lot of really crazy things. We're thinking about printing footing. People want us to find homes that can accelerate really. Can you really do that. You cost effectively. That's very important questions. Can we use by obeys materials and print with materials such as bays resins and would bathe fibers. And and then have something. That's hundred percent recyclable. So you can build a house and and then fifty years from now when somebody goes down you can recycle the whole. That's amazing. That's kind of things that we're thinking about Gordon. Future well congratulations. Thank you so much for talking with US pleasure Greta. Next time we have a the next crazy thing printers will give you a call. I can't wait to see what they're going to print next. Maybe it'll be an entire carnival. What do you think that'd be actually terrifying up next? Alison Roman is a food columnist for both New York Times cooking and Bon apetit. which are two of my favorite corners of the Food Internet? She's actually created to recipes that went totally viral viral. They're known as the cookie and the STU the cookie assaulted. Chocolate Chunk shortbread cookie which is delicious and the stew who is like a turmeric chickpea. Coconut milk situation. Google them both they are God damn delicious anyway. Her new cookbook is called nothing fancy and it comes on on Tuesday and it's all about how to throw a low key bad ass dinner party but allison actually doesn't even believe in the term dinner party chief prefers to say she's having a few people that's on is from the show crazy ex girlfriend. Alison has three really great guidelines for when you WanNa have a few people over and the first one is asked for help. Yes so I feel like probably the one that I struggle with most because I really wanted to do everything myself. I wanted to be able to provide everybody. I wanted to at least have the illusion lesion that I was in control of the situation and so as soon as you kind of acknowledge the fact that you know. You're probably GONNA have better luck if you ask for help. Giving yourself permission to do that. And then you're gonNA feel a lot better. It's also I think it's nice to include people in the process you know otherwise it's like you they come over and you're essentially serving cigna and it has like a dynamic like host and guest and whatever but I feel like when you invite people over a new accidents of contributor Jan or help even if it's a small task like picking herbs or something you think there's like a community bag but that comes out from that which I think is really nice. Her second party tip is pick your battles and he's gotta be out for this one is more have to do for me with like many design and you know the cocktail you're gonNA serve but you know it feels weird or tastes money or the fourth fourth dish you are GonNa make. It's like is that it's three enough. Maybe three's enough type of thing if you're going to go all out on this like crazy roast or something like that. Maybe everything else is really simple. Maybe it's just a baked potatoes and our salad. You don't have to be so elaborate and I think that the battle should it'd be like just understanding that when you open your own people and fill it with people and and eat and then there's the cleanup and you're drinking wine like that takes a lot out of you especially AH older is. I've learned Now that I'm thirty four but you know so it's sort of like you know what I was GonNa. I was GonNa do this but now I'm not I was GonNa make you know the other day I was GonNa make these. Little Christine Mashed potatoes mashed potato and then tried them in oil and let them know Caribbean. It's like you know what I'm not GonNa do that. I already stressed out about something else. That was running out of time and the fact that I opted out of that made the rest of my nights so much smoother and the third is never apologize. Yeah I mean this is like a real definite Rafael Phone Julia Child And where you know. Basically the gist is like if you apologize nobody was gonNA notice somebody that you're gonNA notice and don't apologize for for you know the thing coming out the way that you thought it went because nobody knows the difference and I think that most home-cooked and a lot of especially feel this way you. There's like the Juliet person who wrote victories. And now now again in her first she had like a funny story about how she was supposed to make ice cream. And it didn't set in an orchestra. -servative milkshakes everybody loved it and she didn't tell anybody that was supposed to be ice cream so I feel like it's that kind of thing and I think winning especially are really we have an above a love for the words. I'm sorry and the apologize for everything in the kitchen and out of the kitchen on the street at home. Whatever but I feel like you know if you're talking about it would or if you feel like you're selling a little too salty or whatever just don't even bring not apologize and just go with it because things are never going to be perfect? They're never going to be exactly how you want it to be. Chances are people are GonNa really appreciate the gesture anyway and I don't know about you but like ask for help. Pick your battles and never apologize. I think are like also pretty good advice outside the kitchen to just saying uh-huh so with that in mind throw yourself Goddamn party. I'm GonNa Throw Biscuit Party this weekend. It's GonNa be great in just a minute very special message for y'all grammar nerds the world will be just fine if we let complete apostrophe chaos rain you're listening to net if you love grammar rules well we have what could be very upsetting but I think hopefully eventually truly empowering interview for you. Are you feeling nauseous. Or is it nauseated. Sorry we had to do that. So the source of your upcoming frustration is Gretchen McCulloch. She's an internet linguist and she's the author of Grey Book called because Internet understanding the new rules of language. It's all about how the Internet and tack are are changing language faster than ever before and what Gretchen argues essentially. Is that for most of human history. The way we learned language the way language was spread was through lake official fancy things right like think textbooks or books published rate but no we have the Internet and all of a sudden there's like blogs dogs and twitter and all this stuff we're normal people are just writing which means they're less formal and they're more creative and gasp. That means they're following being glass grammar rules. I did say less. Just tip issue guys off when we think of rules. We often think of the top down on things that are imposed on us on high. And that's not the kind of thing that I'm excited about. I'm excited about the emergent patterns. That happen when you look at what people are already doing doing. Not what they think they should be doing. But what we're already doing and how we respond to each other and Organiz with respect to each other and turns out that we do a lot of really interesting things and one of those interesting things is new words. We tend to have the sort of weird view of the history versus the present. You know we look back at Shakespeare or something and we say wow. Shakespeare added so many English math but regardless we say this like great good for Shakespeare and then with the same breath we say look at these you know young girls or look at these economically marginalized youths who are adding new words English. We don't like them though right. You know if you're gonNA celebrate Shakespeare you need to celebrate like young. African American can girls or young queer youth or like all of these young people who are currently adding words to the English language. If you're going to celebrate Shakespeare for this new me to acknowledge that like the youth or the new Shakespeare and love it so much I mean it reminds me of something. I've heard you say before that kind of blew my mind especially as a word heard which is that. We should actually be celebrating. All of these changes as much as possible instead of holding on to say you know whether it should be fewer or lesser than like. There's so many more interesting conversations that we can be having around this stuff and a lot of ways when you're upholding the rules you're keeping certain kinds of people out of the conversation exactly. I think it's not an accident. That the varieties that we associate with you know fancy nece or prestige are also associated people who already have the most economic and social power and the ones that we think of as bad or improper incorrect or associated with people in society who have similar attitudes towards. And it's not about the words like languages which is Great. There are many things to worry about in this society that are not language change language changes. Fine it's fun for things to change. You don't have to adopt personally every single new word that crosses your radar but like new words are cool. New Words are always happening. Language has always changed and having negative attitudes towards language changes often more of a reflection of negative attitudes associated with particular groups of speakers And that's something to kind of question in your mind. So perhaps unsurprisingly. So I'm also a a news anchor here. WBZ which means I read newscasts and then maybe you can imagine we get a lot of listener feedback about especially grammar. Emmer things What's what's your advice to somebody who does just like spin out about an apostrophe or whatever? I think that my life has gotten so much better since I realized I didn't have to be angry about language. You know you can. Yeah have this relaxed and curious and interested attitude and literally almost lower your blood. What pressure you know? You don't need to be annoyed. The changes within you and you can just decide to not be annoyed and then suddenly the the world has just gotten less annoying for you. This is this is tremendously free to realize that the world will be just fine. If you give up your grammar vigilantism. Put that that energy into figuring out ways to connect better with people figuring how use language more compassionately imagine if you put all of that energy from correcting people's apostrophes and put that into looking at the words you use tank or any of these actually slurs and I didn't realize it and maybe I don't WanNa say those because I don't want to put up that barrier between me and other people Not using the correct apostrophe is not hurting anybody in the same way that using a slur that you didn't realize realizes a slurry is hurting a real person you don't need to use that energy because the world will be just fine if we let complete apostrophe chaos rain God complete apostrophe chaos. I just love it. So Much Gretchen McCulloch author of because Internet. Thank you so so much. Thank you so much for having me Okay nerds just think of that as is like your homework. Just let it go. Pick better fights make better mistake mm-hmm and one more thing on this day in nineteen twenty to the British Broadcasting Service was founded. Obviously even now it is a titan of broadcast news news. But what I think of when I think of my favorite thing about the BBC beyond like you know Dr who or Torchwood is this clip of a normally completely straight laced. ICED fancy British newscaster. Totally losing her shit on my radio American historians have discovered what they think is the earliest recording at the human voice. It was made in eighteen sixty seventeen years before Thomas Edison. I demonstrated the gramophone and the award not winning screenwriter. Abby Man has died at the age of eighty he won an academy award in one thousand nine hundred sixty one for judgment at Nuremberg. Excuse me he sorry also won civil including one in one thousand nine hundred. Seventy three for for feeling in which featured a detective cools the character on human long-running running TV series was eventually based ten minutes prostate. Oh my God I'm crying. I'm actually crying. It's so funny. Every time I think especially as someone who like actually reads the news live sometimes hear it easy. That is an absolute nightmare but but it is also so funny. I think what happened. Is that like she you know. She's like listening to this super harsh recording and then she looks over at her co presenter and he's losing his shit it and then she just loses it too and it is like the worst timing ever but it's amazing and actually reminds me. I mean I do a lot of radio. I've made a great many mistakes. Once I said highs in the Upper Thursdays but this is by far the moment that I am most ashamed proudest of at the same time. WBZ is supported by Bras Galore with a wide variety. Radian Selection Abrazos van sizes twenty eight through fifty six and Cup sizes aa through bras. Gloria feats petite to full figured full busted at thirty one. I'm forty eight North Lincoln in Chicago. Browse GALORE DOT COM sixty three Feet spits it man you can hear me crackup like almost but I am very deep route of the fact that I maintain my composure. Because sometimes you accidentally say tit on the radio and it's a thing that happens and then of course you have to pull a recording of it and e mail it to your mother immediately really. The show is produced by me. Greta Jonsson along with Justin Bowl are co-creator is Tricia Bobi and our executive producer is granted. Vanak Internet is supported in part by the Alfred P Sloan Foundation enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. We've got a newsletter. It has a bunch of great stuff in it. You can sign up up at our website. WBZ Dot org slash net a F- nerds and hey come back November. Remember I for this. Well George Martin thank you so much for chatting with me it was really a pleasure talking my pleasure that's fun. Winter is coming mother fuckers.

Shakespeare Gretchen McCulloch Peter Peter Florence Alameda D. Printer Greta Johnson Bernardine Evaristo Margaret Atwood Booker Chicago chairman US Alison Roman Caribbean Google Alfred P Sloan Foundation Chicago Bras Galore New York Times University of Maine
The Ruining of the American West

The Book Review

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

The Ruining of the American West

"I'm mike norton host of the new podcast talking green. I'm also a social psychologist at harvard business school. In this first season of talking green. We're going to look at how psychological forces drive attitudes and decisions around money and investing on the show we bring together leading psychologists economists and journalists boil down complicated issues with money and modern life research really suggests that it's small changes around the margins that can have powerful and unexpected impacts for happiness and we have to realize that we live in a world that is trying to derail us a little title stress is actually really good for us. That actually helps clarify your focus every episode. I'll be joined by economist. Journalist and culture maven alison trigger family to phone addiction. Each episode looks at a topic that affects the relationship between our daily lives and our money and gives listeners better understanding their own psychology affects both this. This is talking green in original podcast from t._d. Ameritrade and tea brand studio at the new york times subscribed to talking green now so you don't miss a single episode mhm who owns the american west christopher catch will be here to talk about his you book. This land is the internet ruining the english language gretchen mcculloch will join us to discuss her new book because internet plus. We'll talk about what we and the wider world or reading. This is the book review podcast in the new york times. I'm pamela paul. Christopher ketcham joins us now phoning in from the catskills his new book this land <unk> how cowboys capitalism corruption are ruining. The american west is featured on our cover this week of the book review chris. Thanks for being here. Thank you have here. You are in the catskills. How did you get interested in writing about out. West and west is a child many times with my dad <hes> my parents and experience the national parks and then later when was as <hes> as an adult and realized allies that the public land system of the west did not simply consist of the national parks that in fact there was this enormous domain out there managed by mostly the bureau flan management in the u._s. force service and and that this was land held in common by all american citizens and as i as i put it in the book it's fantastic socialist experiment and the world's most hyper capitalistic nation and so i thought to myself man this is incredible. I own this land so to my daughters so to all my friends so does every newly naturalized immigrant in this country. We are all co owners of this incredible vast terrain of wild lands so i figured hey i should write a book that celebrates in defends it well defense is an interesting word because as you point out many ways even though this is public land there are other influences there so it gives us a sense of what the bureau of land and management is supposed to do with these non park lands and what's actually being done with them. Okay so you know the the managing agencies. He's like the bureau of land management and the forest service operate under what's called a multiple use mandate multiple use stipulates that the public land's shelby used exploited for everything from logging to oil and grazing mineral extraction but at the same time those lands should be protected for ecological protection for soil air and water quality audie for archaeological finds pay logical find etcetera etcetera so in practice the problem here is that multiple use is really multiple abuse and you have widespread degradation of the environment environment and <hes> many places a catastrophic assault on ecological health across the public lands is part of the problem the way in which that set up i mean it sounds like a kind of oxymoronic mission to begin with to boost exploit and protect the same piece of land. Exactly i mean that is the problem. The the whole idea of multiple uses. It's not operable for example. When you have livestock grazing all all across the arid lands of the west you know he's a fragile fragile ecosystems that are terribly affected by cattle which is ah invasive species so when you have all these cattle just to take one example spread across the public lands they destroy the native flora you have cattleman and government agencies killing off native founder considered pass josh by the livestock industry. You have the pollution of water sources streams rivers. You have a kind of vast biotic simplification implication that occurs similarly with oil and gas drilling just give you one example you know in the pinedale complex of the upper upper green river valley of <hes> wyoming that whole area has been subjugated for one use and that one us consists of roads roads and joe paths and pipelines and compressor stations and pump jacks spread across the landscape wiping out native species and wiping out at basically any other use so the multiple use idea there is null and void. It's it's just it's. It's just falsehood really so explain this to someone who is. Let's say a new york city resident things okay. This is the home of the buffalo room. What's the the difference between the buffalo. Roaming these lands and cows buffaloes a native species adapted to landscape escape buffalo graze very different manner than cattle. They had a very different effect therefore on the landscape and there are large stretches of the american west where there were no bison historically so you don't have a <hes> ecological adaptation by the plants to grazing so there are areas where cattle have been brought in where previously there were no bison and and this has been incredibly destructive. The broader issue is do we want to cede hundreds of millions of acres of our public land to a single industry that profits from the dissemination the nation of a invasive species at the cost of native wildlife. That's the question. Will you mentioned in the beginning this. You know this is public land. This land is your land. This land is my land presumably. When you say the cattle industry these are private corporations sion's that are coming in so are they paying for the right to use this public land. Does this is their money that flows back to the public to offset that the environmental costs no and yes so they pay a nominal fee for what's called an a you u._n._m. An animal unit month animal unit months is the the signs value to graze a cow calf pair on public land for for one month. The fee for that cow calf pair on public land fluctuates between roughly a dollar thirty five hundred dollars sixty five per month on private land uncomparable plot private land in the west. Is something like twenty dollars. So so the market value or the market could cost of grazing a cow calf pair is far higher than that which is paid by the public lands livestock industry on our vast american commons meaning really that the industry is heavily subsidized not only subsidized in terms of the the grazing fees but massively subsidized by as much as one billion dollars a year according to some estimates with a host of just incredible credible federal and state aid so we're talking about everything from fencing road maintenance water projects water water diversion weed control drought subsidies pest control program. I'm a massive extermination of predators known as wildlife services run out of the u._s. Department of agriculture and on and on these subsidies go now public lands livestock operators trumpet themselves as you know self reliant and individualistic and and rough riders of the range when in fact they're really just welfare queens and the that the phoniness and fraud of that really rubbed me the wrong way and so it's a big theme in the book. You mentioned the department of agriculture. I'm assuming the department of the interior here is also involved in some of this who is giving these subsidies who is allowing this to happen. Why isn't there greater regulation. The subsidies are being handed out as i said both both the state and federal level subsidies are issued by the u._s. department of agriculture department of the interior by the forest service which is a branch of the department of agriculture by agencies within u._s._d._a. Such as the animal plant health inspection service which operates the aforementioned program predator control known as wildlife services so i mean it's just it's a program of subsidy. That runs runs the gamut from federal agencies to state agencies to county governments. What about the elected representatives from these states the senators the federal level who i'm assuming they have these competing interests right of protecting the land but also lobbyists for the industries that operate within their states. How effective are they at either. Enabling or controlling these industries legislators in the western states in the in the major public land states so we're talking about places like idaho nevada utah wyoming oregon most of them are captured by industry and so in in the northwest you've got legislators who are very friendly to the timber industry therefore will make their displeasure known to the u._s. Force service when the forest service fails to kowtow to the timber industry can <hes> place like utah legislators are captured by livestock in nevada by mining interests so when you have lamb management regulators say at the bureau of land management who step out of line. They're going to hear it from the elected officials. They're gonna hear it that hey you you don't apply environmental regulation too hard okay buddy because that will negatively affect the bottom line of our real constituents which consist of cowboys drillers miners and the like what about the people living in these states presumably some of them not all of them profiting directly from these industries and some of them. I'm concerned about the environment are they effective in terms of getting their state representatives their representatives at the federal level to take into consideration these concerns you mean concerns that broad concerns about environmental protection health no no. They're not they're not. They're not certainly not as effective as industry now on the other hand you have you have the recreation industry. There's quite powerful awful because of all the money it draws in but you know i see the recreation is jesus another arm of of capitalist interests. I mean record well in fact that recreations all about exploiting public lands for view sheds for fast food vistas and for you know for commodified experience that can be posted this social media for narcissistic self expression. We are all implicated. We are all implicated as it is. True who is true so can citizens act in a way that really affects how their elected officials fund and support public land's regulars yes they can but they have to do it in a different way then then historically they've done. I think there needs to be a lot more than activism activism and a lot more more strident militant attitude towards protecting the public lands because things are going badly on those lands. There's a lot of ecological destruction a lot of environmental damage and that is just getting going to get worse in the age of climate changes changes. The west heats up. You mentioned cattle and bite. We talked about bison. Let's talk a little bit more about animals in general because one of the things you write about is is that animals are being slaughtered that threaten the livestock industry which animals are being killed and what are the implications of that agency during the slaughtering. It's called wildlife services. That's not what we usually think. Let me think of wildlife services we think of you know things like wolves and eagles. People often complete the u._s. The united states fish and wildlife service which manages wildlife refuges cross the country hundreds of them and and also oversees the endangered species list under the endangered species act. No wildlife services is totally different. They service your wildlife by in destroying them so for example every year. Wildlife services will fan out across the west and kill thousands upon thousands of coyotes these because the coyotes considered to be a threat to the livestock industry while services will slaughter beavers vers because beavers dammed up streams that need to be quote unquote reclaimed for irrigation for the growing head the watering of cattle life services will go out and slaughter your prairie dogs because the prairie dogs are considered a <hes> competitor with cattle. Oh forage every year you have hundreds of thousands of animals slaughtered by wildlife services at taxpayer expense for the benefit of the public livestock industry earlier on you mentioned idaho nevada utah oregon. I think when people hear the american west they're not entirely sure what that means you know because we talk about the southwest northwestern california which is which is its own thing. We're talking about the west in this book. How do you define that and just how big is because we have a lot of international listeners on this podcast and they might not have quite a sense of just how vast the land that you're talking about here is the west is i define it. In the book does not include california the pacific coast the pacific rim of of i've <hes> oregon and washington the west is really the interior west and that's really the arid land west so the columbia basin the great basin asian the colorado plateau the mohave desert the sonoran desert's a portion of the great plains but really the west begins when you hit the rocky mountains and and and that's also at when once you pass the great plains you pass the hundredth meridian you've passed into the into the part of the country that is were precipitation drops below twenty inches a year dust. You've entered the arid land and the arid lands are the public ones. That's the west. The west is basically basically a dry country. The rainless frontier and the west remains largely public because so much of it was unsettle billable because there wasn't enough rain so this is a big question but if you were the wizard of the west and you were you know looking at all these problems from logging well oil and gas drilling to tourism to privatization of public land in the curse of the livestock industry in the corruption and you could say <music> ari. I can wave that wand sort of fix make one big fix that would maybe radiate our word and cover a lot of these problems. What would you do. What what what should we do. I would fully fund and enforce the endangered species act because endangered species act mandates that you have to have landscape level habitat yeah protections for endangered species and guess what happens if you actually implement that you shutdown extractive industry across hundreds of millions of acres. This was not a good week for that knows a terrible week for that because of the trump administration is further further gutted endangered species protections as if the endangered species act wasn't already a dead letter under previous administrations including that of obama all right so it's looking pretty grim for the west right now citizens need to get up they need to get enraged and engaged and demand that their public land's their roland be managed for the great common good all right well. They can start with reading your book. The book again is called this land. How cowboys capitalism and corruption are ruining the american west by christopher ketcham chris. Thanks so much for being here. Thank you very much <music>. I'm mike norton host of the new podcast talking green. I'm also a social psychologist at harvard business school. In this first season of talking green. We're going to look at how psychological forces drive attitudes and decisions around money and investing on the show we bring together leading psychologists economists and journalists to boil down complicated gated issues with money and modern life research really suggests that it's small changes around the margins that can have powerful and unexpected impacts for happiness. We have to realize realized that we live in a world that is trying to derail us. A little stress is actually really good for us. That actually helps clarify your focus every episode. I'll we'll be joined by economist. Journalist and culture maven alison schrager from family to phone addiction. Each episode looks at a topic that affects the relationship between our daily lives and our money and gives listeners a better understanding their own psychology affects. Both this is talking green original podcast from t._d. Ameritrade and tea brand studio at the new york times subscribed talking green now so you don't miss a single episode so here's a request for our listeners. I get lots of feedback from use who some complaints lots of kind words really appreciate it. You can always reach me directly at books at n._y. Times dot com. I will write back but you can also if you feel moved to do so review us on any platform where you download the podcast. Whether that's i tunes or stitcher or google play or somewhere else. Please feel free to review us and of course email us at anytime. Elizabeth flock joins us now. She is a producer over at the p._b._s. Newshour which is our partner in the now al read this book club hi liz hi there pamela. We just announced this week. Our selection for september tells a little bit about the book. We chose our pick. This is month is one of the most talked about debut novels in recent years and it is conversations with friends by the young irish writer sally rooney. She's really liked the girl of the moment she really is and she's been called sort of the first great millennial author which it's like what does that mean but rooney. She's twenty eight now. She often writes about relationships in and how they play out in this modern era she really really intertwines the personal with the political and this book which was her debut novel is set in dublin told through the eyes of a twenty one year old student named francis and it's really a book about people and how they relate but also about big ideas that laces its way through all of rennie's novels and i think she told told the times when when you interviewed her that she wanted to reach people who shared ideology and sort of like a jaundiced view of our current social systems so readers can sort of expect that to be lace through a novel. It's not a light novel in a way. She's very political. She's very political. She'll write sentences like capitalism. Resum is the great destroyer of love or things like that. You know very easily and i think she was a marxist growing up and so that's very much there in all of her writing. What do you think people keep referring to her. As a millennial novelist or is the big millennial novelist or the first millennial nautilus because of course there are plenty of people in their twenties that are writing books now. You could say that about a number of people but i'm just curious. What do you think makes her feel like a kind of generational voice well if you look at conversations with friends there ear our conversations throughout the book between francis and her best friend bobby that are on facebook through letters in person and and they're all sort of conveyed in the same sharp but deadpan tone and i think people would say like sort of this millennial way of conveying yourself easily li like across platforms but in this disaffected way that you're looking at the world you're looking at the way the world has been presented to you whether your personal experience matches up to that she's captured captured that way of existing in the world in a way that i think previous novelists haven't yet yes in previous. Generations are very uncomfortable. I think are at least speaking for <hes> data set of one with the idea of having to convey yourself across multiple platforms right right in the exact same way. I'm i'm interested how people of different ages will receive this book. I know it's sort of polarizing in a certain way like some people devour it like i did and others like i don't get it so it'll be interesting to see how people discuss it all right. Well definitely a conversation position starter of a book beginning with its title absolutely she has another book out now called normal people but this was her first book and it's available in paperback doc. Where can people go if they want to check out the book club if they want to discuss the book submit questions for sally rooney when she goes on air you can find us on facebook. Just look up now. Read this. We have about seventy thousand members. They're discussing the book or you can join our newsletter at lea- backslash now read this newsletter alright right so easy and on facebook. There's a newsletter and on both the p._b._s. Newshour website and the near term say you can do a lot of background reading about the buck tuck read the way in which we've covered it in the past other interviews that we've done with her and look forward to her being on air on the p._b._s. Newshour towards the end of september absolutely alright. Thanks so much for having me. That was elizabeth flock. She is a producer at p._b._s. News hour and our partner on the now read this book club. Gretchen mcculloch joins us now from montreal in canada to talk about her new book because internet understanding the new rules of language gretchen. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Your author. Bio on the jacket. Flap calls you an internet linguist. What is that. How long has it been around has been around since the internet you know the internet might i put it has been a thing like when did that start. I know the first person to use internet linguists but i know there was a book about the language of the internet published rush by david crystal in two thousand and one republished in two thousand six which was kind of read it now and it's really like a a time capsule of what was going on in the era talking about looked chat rooms and these kinds of stuff and there's a journal about internet linguistic called language got internet nutrition publishing two thousand four so it's not particularly new what a lotta people are now going to be credit for inventing which i i would take bren without critic. Everything's going so quickly. Nobody remembers anything. I like. I like you can fight for their. This is not just me that i laid out this. I tried to find a lotta people in because internet because you know you can't just analyze everything yourself so speaking of forebearers what was in that earlier book on internet language that was published in two thousand and one and then reissued in two thousand and in six one thing that i think is hilarious about this. David crystal put from two thousand and one is <hes>. It's has an extended discussion about mud which are either multi user dungeon. No multi through joe means to an early sort of role playing chat room that many internet users just never heard of the but they will really popular at the time and they're they're kind of popular before this the way the internet mainstream is asian and the interesting thing about mud if they were kind of like the dungeon move like dungeons and dragons dungeon and so people would go onto play and mondo probably the origin of the modern day convention when you talk about yourself in the third person in internet dialogue. Give us an example so if i say something like gnawed or sign or goes off in search of sock you know in the middle of a text conversation and then there was actually command in <music> bud you could have it appear as like gretchen nods or correction acknowledges your point but considered a different one and you could write these things it would appear with your username and find a bit because they were designed for collaborative storytelling abilities action. Do actions not just talk. It's funny because reading writing about yourself in the third person or speaking about yourself in the third person is kinda like you know speaking in the royal we considered incredibly pretentious traditionally and yet on the internet. It feels like it has the opposite effect. I think in the in the story of the mud is designed to it's a it's a pro social way of building on this world for other players so yes nobody but yourself in the third person but other people are seeing you do some sort of action you know gretchen and vote on the floor laughing and do this story because you're trying to tell the sort of collaborative story existed tasks when were the first signs means that the internet was transforming the way in which people communicated in writing was it with internet relay chat rooms. How how did it happen. There's a really interesting article from i think it's nineteen seventy eight by two researchers on the i think this would have been arpanet talking about email because you know interested nineteen seventy eight one particularly popular but it did exist and they have this moment where they say one could write imperfectly or tersely even to a person one barely knew and this was considered by and nobody talk. That's and this is not really how we think of email. Now you know people do take offensive email. People do worry about how you come across now but this idea that the style of writing e._e._g. On a computer you can do with other people you know in the in the sort of social space which was different technological base created a place where you can have a different style of lighting. That's quote that i found if there's one from nineteen seventy eight when most people weren't even aware of an internet or any sort of networked computers saying okay. I'm gonna lay out very ignorant presumption on the part of a it non-internet linguist which is to say that is it true that prior to the internet in large part spoken. Oh can language originated a lot of changes in the language and then it would trickle down and eventually be accepted in writing and that perhaps that's now flipped with the internet. You're right on with the first part so generally speaking a lot of linguistic change comes from informal to me because formal domain of language likes a formal domain of many other areas whether that's close or something else fairly conservative is fatally historic looking. He says we're gonna do things the way they've already been done so in order to get innovation you need to get it from somewhere and often that's from the informal and why think is interesting about the internet is that it creates with expansion of the informal domain to right and there was informal writing before the internet people wrote letters and postcards and diary entries and stuff like that one i common and it wasn't really easy into disseminate so you didn't have the ability to get as influence other people's informal writing and people just didn't do it that much. If you didn't become a writer you might not like much longer gonna grocery list after you graduated from school so so it's not that the internet had become the only domain omega or new language. It's just that it's become one possible domain for new language in addition to speech which is still the case so i'm gonna probably out out myself as a stuck in the mud fuddy-duddy of language which i feel like is probably appropriate for send works in in the book world but as such i was initially very opposed to the use of mod cons which felt to me you know just incredibly juvenile and simplistic. I resisted tested for a long time now and i don't know when it happened. Maybe in the last year of started using a motor cons even if only ironically but they slip in there they're very similar emoji to or just for just a text based one or just the tech space ones but now maybe expand on that. What am i missing. We the first emoji that really caught my attention and imagination sort of thing was the hard i heard is emoji because a lot of the other early emojis that i was being exposed to you know the happy face on the fan base and the winky face and stuff like that i was like well i can do this with a text based on what do do i need. The emotion more and then i came across hard is and i saw people using it. I was like oh this conveys something that i wanna be able to convey this sort of admiration and enjoyment and like oh. I'm in love with this thing like you know. I love this book. I love this song. Here's the heart is to convey that which is something that i didn't have access to in emoticons. They're just only so many punctuation symbols and they weren't really designed to be inputs. Facing purposes alright so clarify for those of us who may be still lightly confused or deeply confused about what the differences says between an emotive khan and emoji and how did they start and when did they really take off in motor. Cons are tax-based faces or a few other designs. There's been a motive kahn which is less than nine plus three rows but most of them are cohen parenthesis or colon hyphen parenthesis something along those lines emoji are the ones that are in full color often yellow but sometimes you have other objects you know casting dogs and confusion fusion that many people have between the two is that many platforms will convert automatically. You'll plain text in motor cons into emoji without doing anything thing so facebook chat will do this a lot of the a lot of interesting programs we do this and so a lot of people think of their typing emoticons. They turn out as emoji so they just use both terms as synonyms. How's this going to affect things. You think about book people print people we think about things like what are the collected did letters for posterity gonna look like in the age of you know slack and texting and even just email and emojis. How how is it going to be captured. I mean i think it's a question that is not the question digital archiving so presumably if your platform can digitally archive everything else that someone might be typing. I don't i don't see where it will be difficult. The thing that could be difficult is because the design of the emoji change from from year to year so for example the early incarnations the dancer emoji you have apple with the woman in a red dress when you have google with this blog figure microsoft has disco manned and then eventually everyone starts converging around this woman address because people don't like their women in red dresses changing into blog. I don't know why but if you saw his typing particular era you might i want your archival collected letters collective text messages software to display the emoji as they were typing it and not year rather than as they've turned into so how many years later got it. You have a chapter in your book called typographic tone of voice. What does that mean tone of voice. Tour folks you using thing especially punctuation marks capitalization spacing wind breaks all of those sort of paper graphic keys to convey various various kinds of tone of voice shouting or emphasis or i sort of deadpan sarcasm or all of these different sources feelings that you can convey with clever choice of punctuation and capitalization you mentioned that sparkley till dis is intended to to convey irony and as a fan of irony. I was surprised to see that because one of the complaints that i've often had with email and internet internet sort of language in general is that it fails to capture things like deep sarcasm but it sounds like that's not so so there are proposals for irony punctuation elation going all the way back to fifteen seventy five and every generation or two. You'd have another philosopher thing if only we had punctuation mark and then you look at how people are using punctuation and capitalisations on the internet and it turns out they're always doing sarcasm and people have collectively inventive and most of the symbol ways of conveying star cosmin writing play with double meaning so they're not unambiguous. Creators of sarcasm hasn't because the thing was talk has with irony is that by doing nature relied on certain sort of ambiguity because if you wanted to be completely completely lucid we already have a tool for that and it's called not being sarcastic so he knew how this potential for miscommunication if potential for it to go along in order for the irony really effected so some i wanna compilation tools rely on a professional symbol of authority so if you capitalize something you catalyze something that wasn't intended to be capitalized like a very important person the knocking indicate that you're being ironic about it and the same thing for scare quotes quotations marks symbol for you but of course scare quotes can also be ironic. The knee were internet. He anyone's also repurpose symbol of enthusiasm rather than authority so buckle punctuation marks. This is like the till they and the asterix us together when the children's the squiggly wound up in the corner by the one so people who may not recognize that they name war sometimes people use the sparkle emoji for this purpose as well that came to us to say this is great. I like it but in a context where you don't actually think something is great. You know like the latest news. Maybe you think that's great but maybe in context. He's very clear. The latest news actually terrible so in that case i wanna can can be conveyed by the sparkles and and you know you you read into that actually meeting this person couldn't possibly have actually been theatric and so here's what you'd have earning one of the things that people would say about out email early on and i think still today is as a kind of cautionary note saying well toned gets lost in email. You know you need to be very careful. Old about how you write an email or senate taxed because tone doesn't come across it sounds like the language and the punctuation has evolved loved to take care of that from what you're saying. I say the tone does come across but it doesn't necessarily come across to everybody in the same way so we're now in sort of a transitional period where you have some people who adopted the system of tone and don't actually find writing impoverished when it comes to the voice don't actually find it hard to do someone's tone <hes> in attack message or an email and you have other people who still believe that writing fundamental being capable of conveying and and the problem comes in you mash these two things together like in a workplace for example and it workplace you know parents and kids. All sorts of these are the cross generational mishap. It's not strictly speaking only generational because if you have somebody who's kind of in the middle of one of these demographics their forty or so now they could have have spent most of those forty years on the internet developing you know sophisticated sense of typographic boys or they could have been like yeah. I'm only going to go on the internet. Check the weather and read the news not actually try to communicate with people and i don't think it's hateful you do have we been attitudinal different. That intersects check with the age difference creates complications when it comes to something like whether or not use a period at a time yes that i was going to get there. There's a new uses of old punctuation like the at sign in the hashtag and then there's just the old punctuation which seems to have been completely changed and the period i feel like has taken a a real hit. The period is really the actuation. Mark jews your own. It comes to interesting things going on the internet that goes back. She a question of what you think of as the default separation character between oranges and he's speech we don't actually talk in complete sentences all the time we often talk and winston utterances and this is true in the informal writing as well you can say hey as a full. You don't need to write out every time you know hi. How are you over and some people and and so everybody's using some sort of separation character between utterances some people are you know trying to punctuate like the dialogue and all but often the roughly older generation is often using a dot dot or a dash between each of the audiences or people put in a period younger generation tends unsuccesfully audiences with message breaks or lingering. Any of these systems are fine. It's not that one of them is better than the other. There's a problem with one of them. It makes sense to you know pick. A generic separation character in informal writing hasn't necessarily it's not necessarily efficient to decide oh you know this is a folk laws. Many here's a semi colin here. This is a partial call him a call and they make sense to have a generic separation character because you're not committing to is this a full causes the independent dependent clause we have all these ways of conveying generic separation and the colonies when they come crashing into each other because if no default you i'm in a separate each of my utterances with a wind break or message rate than any other punctuation mark might use has the potential to take on additional meaning and so adopted thought which to generation is a generic operation character or even a period which one generation is a generic operation character actor to another generation is a way of indicating that there's something more to be set or. There's something more to be bird. So dot dot dot can indicate he just sort of expecting pause or leaving. Something left unsaid so if you say something like sounds good with that dot dot dot what what preservation do you have your leaving something left unsaid. What is it a maybe it's good but maybe he also ana and with the period because association association with formal writing and its association with a sort of downward turn of the voice he say sounds good. That's a very final. It's very follow. Oh this can't be consonant when you put it with a negative sort of message. W saying oh that sounds terrible. You put a period there that has it's a bit extra weight. That's okay but if you say sounds good when you have a positive message and fallen period and together they create that sort of dissonance with each other and that's where the effective possibly aggression emerges. It's curious always passive aggressive. Sometimes passive aggression emerges we when you have a conflict between seriousness of the punctuation and the positive message fascinating period is a passive aggressive thing who knew the period had such power <music> i always think of the dot dot dot and maybe this is generational thing as the there is more to say here but i am not putting it in an email or a text or in any form of writing yeah and you can definitely use a doctor dog for that and i think that that has the sort of this ominous sense to it as well. Your subtitle is understanding the new rules of language ah jin when you think about rules. Do you think about school and i think about high school english teacher in this day and age if these are the new rules does not mean that in a a high school paper kids can just kinda drop their periods and use all lower case and you know go at it that way and we should accept that i think it's useful full to talk about distinctions between formal and informal because we've had this distinction for a long time when it comes to speech you know you don't have a public speech or you know be a radio newscaster newscaster or t._d. Announced or something the same way that you haven't ordinary conversation the thing that you talked to your dog. It's reasonable to you know learn how to do a public learn how to do those particular convention into being engaging public speaker and sometimes although maybe prescriptive conventions like talking to microphone on make eye contact with your audience but some of those common sense you know try to be prepared prepared and having a structured a logical order type of thing and when it comes to formal writing the actual shape of formal writing the actual conventions that we think think of a formal those have changed continue to change its likely that they will change but you know this idea that the skills involved in writing an essay are going to be slightly totally different from those involved in having a text conversation. That's not so different from involve in doing a public speech are different from the fields involved in chatting with your friends when you think about these changes in the language for you as an internet linguist are these changes by and large positive. Are they neutral. That's just the way it is. This is what happens to language or is there anything here to be lamented. No live exchange in general is is neutral. It's one thing that happens. I excited about internet language changes particularly. I can only because i think it's expanding our motion repertoire to neighbouring us to do things that you couldn't do before you know so also have been writing wishful proposals for irony punctuation situation for five hundred years and now we have it. That's anything that helps irony and sarcasm alone. That's that's something people have been dreaming. Go for five hundred years and now we've accomplished like your job all right well. What's the internet way to end this internet language wait. Oh <hes> let's see <hes>. I was gonna say chee wai l. but that probably dates me. What is that for those who don't know talk to you later got it. We'll we'll say t._y. L. since neither of us us our kids and thank you. The book is called because internet understanding the new rules of language by gretchen mcculloch gretchen. Thank you so much you for having me joining us now to talk about what we're reading my colleagues tina jordan emily aken and lauren christianson. Hey guys have cameras well. Let's start with you lauren because it's your birthday as we are recording and so you have full permission to talk about anything like okay well. I'm actually going to talk about okay. Don't like i'm halfway through john williams's storeowner. I picked it up because it seems like i mean it's written in nineteen sixty five. I think and some for some reason i think at least five of my friends outside the book world have mentioned and it to me in the last few months. There's something in the air about about this book and so i kept having to embarrassingly tell them that i had never read it and so you know i kind of want to see what all the hype is about and it has all the architecture of book that i thought i would love campus novel people describe john williams a writer's writer. It has pros and as i'm reading it. The pros really reminds me of grow. It has that varies sort of austere kind of direct on not not at all florid diction writing style and and yet i'm just finding myself struggling through it and i it's it's the story of a of a young man who abandons his farm life is upbringing on a farm to pursue career in academia and he becomes an english professor and you know he has sort of an unhappy marriage. I'm at the point where they've just had a child and the wife sort of mysteriously sick and also kind of terrible able to him and i just it's it's very depressing and a boring way. I just i'm waiting. I'm hoping something happens but i kind of have a feeling just from the very little bit that i've heard that nothing really does happen. It's just kind of a very realistic portrait of kind of an american life or an existence and i think what i'm struggling with is that all of these things happen to stone her the protagonist but you don't get really a sense of how he processes things in the interior you know i i don't get a lot of his his his mental space and how he feels about his relationship in his career and his family his father passes away after he's abandoned him on the farm and and i just kind of want to know how donor feels about these things have. Have any of you guys read this book. It's been so long ever. I'm embarrassed on my shelf for similar reasons that it's been probably been on your shelf and i have the very lovely new york review books classics edition but every time i go to read it people say well. It is very depressing and i. I do love depressing books. Yeah me me too but <hes> but but i think that it's depressing in a bleak understated way as opposed to depressing in in lake. The people are dying horrible terrible happening way which is more my preference. It's funny. I you know i was. I was waiting for a friend at a bar the other night and i pulled it out in the bartender. Pretender was just like i love that book at such a great book and i i really don't like it. He is having a moment. I know his first novel. This is not his first name was recently reissued and i think there's an academic press has released a biography of him. It'd be interesting to to kind of think about why well. We'll have to john williams because i it hold him responsible for all the other john williams's world tina. What about you woody reading. So i'm reading a book that came out earlier. This year called courting mr lincoln by louis bayard <hes> he's a historical novelist who's written about people like po and theodore roosevelt and in this novel he's writing about abraham lincoln and mary todd and someone named joshua speed who was i believe in other law clerk the good friend of lincoln's with whom he lived right he sort of becomes almost adoptive kind of sun in a way right right or something for something more what this novel is is about basically the love triangle among the three of them and it's interesting in for any number of reasons it's told mostly by mary todd and by joshua from their points of view and i have to say the depiction of mary todd is a revelation revelation because in history books as i remember her she's either dark and forbidding fierce or completely consumed by grief. If here is this sprightly intelligent witty funny woman very strong minded for the age but she's almost like jane austen austin heroin. This is my problem though with historical fiction because i probably leftover history major issues but i just end up wondering well is is any of that true right and i think you know it's he so interesting to me for a number of reasons but his research is spectacular but i was talking about this with emily yesterday and i said i'm really interested in when he crosses the line when he takes all that research and yet then makes the character his sounds like if it's not a believable abraham lincoln we're not gonna buy the novel but what's embellished that is always in my mind. Did you read lincoln and the bardo yes i did. How did you feel about that in terms of those lines. I liked it fine. I think i didn't love it like most people did. I what i'm liking this book more at this moment i i i should stress that even though i said it's about a love triangle what i'm seeing at this point is joshua speeds infatuation with abraham lincoln and and you should add tina there is a genuine debate in lincoln scholarship right the nature of that relationship right. It's been debated for a long time. They shared a bed but which which was a dumb thing back then they were to bachelors rooming houses. Were expensive like that happened. It's really interesting to contribute to that scholarly debate with a fictional right right and i'm kind of surprised nobody has done it in a novel yet because it's been discussed by lincoln historians for decades. I think at this point but i hear are you pamela about your objections but i think you might be swayed by this book. <hes> it's so smart. We'd like to think that mary todd was more the way that you're describing. It sort of makes sense sense that i mean why else would he have married her. You know i mean he was such an amazing person. It's hard to imagine that he just would have gone and married this horror you you know all right emily. What are you reading well. I'm writing a book that you. I believe you all have read save. Please jump in. I'd love to discuss with all of you. The yellow a yellow house by sarah broom. This is a book that was reviewed on our cover and i just sort of main lined it. It's predicated on a brilliant concede. It's a memoir mar but at the center of this memoir is this yellow house and this is the house in which broom and her eleven siblings grew out and the house becomes the dominant dominant character in the book and the book the way she approaches this this house and its history this house no longer exists. It was completely lately destroyed by hurricane katrina. It was in new orleans east which is a kind of forgotten section of the city. That has the kind of tragic victory. She approaches the memoir as a kind of work of of archaeology. This is not an angry book. This is not a self pitying book and yet it's really a history of a tragedy a familial tragedy but also a civic tragedy and the house becomes this complex portrait of that. It's it's it's a symbol of familial bonds. This was a poor family. Sarah's mother at the age of nineteen was widowed and took her life savings like three thousand dollars colors and purchase this shotgun house very modest house in this new part of town that was that developers had great ambitions for it was going going to be a model city in the mid century kind of glamorous new place and of course that never came to pass and what the house and that part part of the city gradually become are symbols of america's racist treatment of its black citizens so the work is just. It's an extraordinary book <hes> and she has done so much research and she exposes that research. You're constantly hearing about the process. She underwent to write this book. She goes to libraries. She's looking at urban history. She interviews her siblings and includes unredacted transcripts of conversations with them and they all have wonderful vivid diction and so and then of course the history of this part of of new orleans and there's a river chris action the book kind of climaxes at hurricane katrina when the house collapses finally and i i wonder what you all think i wanted the book to end their part part of me really wanted the book to and there but of course sarah broom her adult life is just beginning. She's a young woman. She moves to new york. She goes to graduate school in in berkeley arkley. She even does a stint in burundi and the further. I got from new orleans. The more anxious i became an yet sara is a gifted enough writer that she's constantly using these sections and these experiences to kind of contrast with new orleans and her memories of home and is constantly coming back physically soclean to live in new orleans she can't she can't leave it. She keeps returning. She takes a job with the mayor's office. She leaves again then she comes back to write the book so so it's really a moving and beautiful portrait i agree. It was one of my favorite nonfiction books of this year. <hes> t to your question. I appreciate it actually that the book book went on even when the house was was physically gone. One of my favorite lines in the book is hope. I don't miss this but she says how to resurrect a house with words the metaphor of the house it serves so well because of course it is a physical object but its meaning and it's important and it's the safety and the umbrage at provides it just far surpasses the physical structure one of the things that i loved about this book so much is how sarah describes this conflict that her mother had between her her pride and her preservation of the house she was so immensely proud of this modest house and yet none of the children were ever allowed to bring guests into the house and these joe i mean there were twelve children spanning multiple decades for decades. No one outside of the broom family was allowed within its walls which i think is such a fascinating canadian complicated way of conceiving of what a house means. It's actually like protecting the the people within it from the outside world. I thought it was brilliant tina. I i loved opted to his. You know i'm like emily. The last section of it after katrina. I didn't think was a strong as the rest of the book. I think what lauren picking up onto. I just wanted to stress. I think this is an unusual thing she does in the book look taking physical fragments and investigating them for their emotional emotional meaning and their psychological meaning so the pieces of the house they're very physical descriptions and the highway the highway. They houses assiduous near a busy highway. Actually one of the siblings is hit by a car. They have to cross this highway so every every every sort of physical entity in the book has the kind of deeper meaning meaning a an effective meaning and she's just brilliant at at at that kind of work excavating objects. Do you think that she carries on the story. After the the house is gone in a way to highlight the fact that you always have some kind of home and what does it mean especially if you're out in burundi and berkeley in new york places that are very very far afield from east new orleans. What is home mean when you know when it no longer actually physically exists. I think that's exactly it. She's searching for home and she's is trying to figure out who she is going to be. As an adult and part of that is what is my relationship to the place i come from to my family and new orleans is part of who she is. It turns out. It's a place you can't really leave psychically at least will i read a book that i know that at least one of you read as well it it was ling mas sovereigns which came out last year and is out in paperback now and i thought it was really brilliant. Its debut novel will really ambitious. It's a social commentary in the guise of a post apocalyptic novel and it starts. It's off with humanity has already been wiped out. Which is the premise that i adore and i'm always interested in like you know ever since i think reading stephen king's the stand in high school. I've i've i've. I've been drawn to those books. I'm always interested in who the writer decides is left standing and why these characters and and that's very interesting in this book what's also interesting is the nature of the thing that has wiped everyone out which is called shin fever and hsien fever is a a not actually a virus but a fungus that emerges from china which is where the author herself was born although she lives in the u._s. now and and the way in which a person who is fevered which is how the book puts it behaves. Is they get stuck in the routine. They were in before they died. Who who've you tina. Have you know i haven't so they get stuck in the routine of whatever they were doing before they died and these routines are themselves kind of commentaries. He's on the sort of anesthetized consumer culture you know so if someone was doing some kind of menial office chore at ah work like they're they are shuffling the papers but they're doing it with their minds. Sort of diseased gone or one person is endlessly trying on clothes in the closet uh-huh or making dinner repeatedly and all of the people in in their midst are kind of going through the motions of everyday life but in a kind of mindless decayed fashion shen so it's not only about the nature of contemporary work in contemporary what she would probably call leaked capitalist so less culture yes the sole listeners of this kind of life but she also brings in themes of immigration. The protagonist is the child of to immigrants from china and she talks about reese and a lot about gender politics and one of the people who is a survivor. Is this really insidious. Insidious character named bob who's a gun toting religious zealot white man who sort of elects himself nominally in charge of things and a lot of it is about the sort of dynamics between him and the other gang of survivors so i i thought it was not only really ambitious in terms of trying to mary that john mara with this social critique but in its execution because it's a total page turner and i was reading it while i was traveling and it was the kind book that like when i had jetlag i was waking up in the middle of the night. I was like oh good got something to do. <hes> so <hes> i loved it. What did you think yeah i mean. I thought it was great. I it was one of our notable books last year. It was just such an ambitious project. I think this year we're seeing so many of these sort of dystopia kind of surveillance state books novels and i think think this this severance really predated those by by several months and it was definitely the person a trend all right. Let's run through the books again lauren. I'm reading stone her by john williams the yellow house by sarah broom and i'm reading courting mr linkin by louis by art and i read ling mas severance. Sorry thanks guys. Thank you. Mm-hmm remembers more n._y. Times dot com slash books and you can always write to us at books at n._y. Times dot com. I write back not right away but i do. The book review podcast is produced by the greet pedro soto from head stepper media with a major assist for my colleague. John williams william's thanks for listening for the new york times. I'm pamela palm.

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How your voice assistant talks is more important than what it says with Ben McCulloch

VUX World

00:00 sec | 10 months ago

How your voice assistant talks is more important than what it says with Ben McCulloch

"Hello Ladies and Gentlemen Boys and Girls Welcome to V. U. X. World the practical voice podcast. Today's episode of lex wilderness featuring Ben McCulloch. He joins me on Dustin to discuss intonation. And how you says something being just as important ask what is actually said. We discuss text to speech. The current situation of Texas beach and where Texas beach needs to go. If it is going to build trust I with us on our voices we discuss human recorded voices and how what qualities the human voice has that we need to bring into to our voice experiences. Ben Discusses The Lord of examples of some different types of audio and different types of voices. And how the intonation initiative within the voice can across trust amid the experience generally more pleasurable. Now if you're thinking of making your voice experiences generally more pleasurable than you should check out. Read Speaker they create Costa text to speech voices for some of the biggest bruns in the world. And and you don't have to have one custom created. You can choose from over ninety high quality voices if you just WanNa grab one. That's off the shelf. But that's still different and unique unique compared to some of the other built in if you like Texas beach voices that you'll find upon Moore's voice assistance now. We talked to today about how we're working with Eh Audio I. Medium and how to Bruns differentiate themselves in an audio fast medium. One of those wiz is with a unique brand rund voice a voice that represents everything that your brand stands for your brand value using your brand personality. You'll have a very hard time doing not an in a scalable With with voice talent of with the current crop of Texas beach voices because they all fall under so if you would like to create a custom run voice. He's a text to speech voice. You can use to generate content on the fly and deploy in any channel like Ivr's conversational systems voice assistance robotics robots and things like that cars or general automotives public announcement systems learning platforms websites. Anywhere that you need you too have a costume voice or a brand voice. You should check out. Read speak to learn more go to read speaker dot com or you can check out the link in the show notes on on the webpage now without further. Ado This Ben McCulloch talking about how uses something being just as important as what you said on v you ex the US ex world agro Grande Dame faces chains minus Mr Dean Sampson dust and dust and dust in code. I like it when you guys are together. Talking about boys. Take Thin. Happy Monday every Monday. You can't how's it going that he will he will. It's been showery afternoon It's not too bad. Go right well you. How's your weekend? Pretty Okay we're headed insys today. Thirty Five Live the strikes here so this is this is the new normal. We just don't avenue buses or trains. This is our life now. I I don't know what a stone as but probably only seven pounds Israel half a stolen I would think. Yeah yeah it says yeah. I'll most just way over Christmas. Believe it or not. Did you heard you was the was the Christmas Diet. I have no idea I have quite biscuits with tea. I think that's what it is not having biscuits skits over. Christmas is probably helped. What about you did you overindulge? Show over the festive period. It wasn't a a huge overindulgence so it was You know you have to get some quality streeton. It's possible to sit and watch films of your family at Christmas in Britain. I'm not a few quality street right but yeah it was nicely easygoing. I just thought back. In what the the kids yell. The sweets it it. Yeah that's I didn't have any quality street this year. I'm starting to think of missed out a little bit here but maybe if I did maybe maybe I wouldn't have lost a tiny tingey bit of wet and I'm lost much weight but it's just like a tiny quality streets. It's it's It's like a box of chocolates. And it's like Lord of different types of chocolates like truffles and toffees and his all notes. What's and all this kind of stuff? All the massive tobe and it's typically in June Tommy. The season is over Christmas. Either GonNa do sell them only around with the most do like Christmas promos or something one of those those nice ones where it's a surprise or is there a little map inside the room for spontaneity with Colonie street and usually everybody knows what's their favorite flavor because they're all color coordinated for blue and yellow. I'd never touched red ones because they don't want the strawberry sweet. What about Green shrub ruins of the strawberry coffee is always the last one left in the tub where the coffee sweets? Yeah Yeah Yeah well. I think the green triangles going to be on the purple haze on toffee little swell thing. Whatever it's called? My daughter was collecting the color offers and making art from them so that was nice because they're all basically plastic and ten nothing not the best of the best but anyway I welcome to the world all the way over from. Is it Czech Republic. Yeah that's right. I'm in a a we city code but yeah no. It's the second biggest city in the Czech Republic after crowd of course but obviously not from that historically given the accent and so you seventy seven years so I'm originally from Scotland so I was born in Edinburgh and then I grew up on a tiny little islands coke butte which is west of Glasgow's population of seven thousand people and in my time there say as with most of the Kids growing up there. There's not many any job opportunities. So you're thinking what you want to do and my obsession became zoned started with music and then from there I got into some design and voice and other aspects of sound but yeah that was really no design. Which is your company the on specializing sound designs right? Yeah well really conscious Zionists essentially me as an audio elite. So what's I offer for is Voice production you know it can be working with life voice talents or text to speech as well as sound design music composition around all right music swell and project coordination and even going into localization. Because I've worked in quite a few different fields all related to audio audio production. So where did your kind of path cross with the current kind love voice ecosystem and the world of voice assistance and voice interfaces whether that come from maybe kind of a bit of a long meandering during story bow. I'll try and keep it fairly tight so when I moved to the Czech Republic I was as a freelance sound engineer and I applied to various studios. And there's one very good TV Post Production Studio Code Sewn Square where I worked for quite a few years And so there I was predominantly working as a dialogue editor. Which means that you're taking? The the recordings of the actors is Is there is there filming on set. They're filming the video of course at the same time they're recording the sound which is predominantly The actors lines what they're saying and I was editing. These recordings usually any scene that you see CNN fillmore TV show is a composite of many different recordings might have actually been doing the same scene for few days so I would have to fit the altogether and basically make a cohesive conversation between the actors quite often. You know we had to be quite quite creative. You know like in most productions things. Don't go quite applying. Or even in the edit they have to really shorten things which means that we have to do little tricks to to try and pretend that the actors were saying a different line than what they actually say and end in those kinds of cases or if the dialogue was obscured by some Pesky little explosion in the background someone blowing up a building or something then they they have to go into a DR which is almost overdoing right now. It's who You you take the actor into the studio and they watch themselves on video and they try to much performance that they did before the right intonation and feeling emotion but they you often are are trying to change one or a few aspects of such as you know give it even more emotion make angrier or change the words words or something like that really loved that process. You know doing Diallo Canady. Are I go to work with actors. Like showing being Jeffrey Russians directors like Ron Howard. Really Thrilling and quite stressful at times. Because it's high pressured by loves it. Let's just Jim unclear. If there's one sec what is a son for for for those people who are not from the TV world sure thing it's most often thought to mean automated dialogue replacement. But there are actually I think a few. Nobody's actually totally not sure what it means there are a few terms and filmed. They're like one of them is Mos which means they filmed without sound. But nobody actually knows is why it's called. Mos apparently was a German director said records this mid out sound so So yeah is automated dialogue replacement. Let's call that Yes so it's essentially getting the actor to repeat repeat the performance with Production Light Lord of the rings they did the apparently for ninety percent of the dialogue basically everything was replaced to get a better a recording quality. And maybe alter the intonation and trying to improve so you've got a lot of experience trying to take audio that was captured elsewhere on much it to a specific scene or environment and even recall something in a studio but the clip is set Outside or in a bathroom also work to do to make the dialogue sound no news if it was spoken by the person at the time but also to make it sound is actually recorded in that same environment. Yeah I mean you know. Some of those tasks are taken by the mixer. I would just prepare for the mixer. They would perhaps apply the echo. The tells you the voice is in an auditorium Maura or a bathroom or anywhere but things like if we're having to rerecord doctor you know to get them to repeat their performance in a Dr. Then maybe they would come in. And you can see the the two people on screen or perhaps five meters away from each other but the actor just speaks quite quietly when their innate ers so we would have to encourage awesome you know give it more projection. You've got to imagine that this has to get to the years of this person you're speaking to. Who's actually five meters away just to make it more? Believable it's all about believability you know. That's that's the that's the main name. It's not as much about any technical Michael Process as it is just about making believable characters in conversations that all serve the story. You know the intention of where where this thing is. What what the story is trying to tell doesn't make sense is is that way is interested in voice then in terms of Yvonne Time Crofton dialogue and edit and dialogue is not how you let your voice over something else? Yeah there was another stage as I was doing this. That was really. My world was very in it and enjoying post production. But it's it's usually crunch crunch atmosphere you know long errors and so on and so Crunch and then suddenly a big project We were supposed to work on in just suddenly vanished and my daughter was born my first child. I know suddenly thinking you know I need to do something so with my wife. We agreed to move from Prague to but no and when we got here you know very luckily almost as soon as we go here I discovered there is one of the one of the biggest localization companies Monrovia. It which became they were bought by our ws and it became our WS Morovia. So it's it's in the top five localization companies in the world. They were looking for an audio lead. So I got the job and while I was working with them I I was doing localization project for Microsoft and so on where we were Taking their tutorial videos and converting them into all the languages of the world and coordinating voice actors to make these recordings and so on and it was at that point that I discovered voice. Tech- voice interfaces and I got really excited and decided that's what I want to be working on. You know. It was kind of one of these moments. Are you just like everything I've been working on. So far seems to fit into this new area where it's not quite so well defined sore fueled. ooh What I know could be very useful. You know I could be another useful voice so to speak in this area so that's basically it In the meantime I do soundtracks for video games as well in India video games this kind of a passion of mine to write music can create sound design cool. So what then struck you as I mean we've done a few episodes on on sound design on an ice to solve to make music on the positive so it's always so Minnesota near and dear supposed to Maha and it's something that I'm kind of always trying to the gym him about a little bit and when you first started taking a look out the voice industry the voice ecosystem voice assistance given your experience with dialogue. Okay Tin and working a lot with recorded language. If you like well some of the things this of stroke you initially when you first come across things like Alexa Google. Google assistant suffer from a sound of a dialogue perspective. Yeah I'm sure it's it's really interesting because you know. The first time I heard text to speech I was like really people are happy to listen to this and does just because I was spoiled working with very good actors so I really heard emphatic voices. who were focused on presenting things in a very good and strong way so text to speech? Should I used to because of course it has. Its place is extremely useful by the fact that you can work very quickly you can it it quickly and of course it's cheap so it has its uses. This was one of the first things stood out to me and another thing. Is that The emphasis on audio for me. It seems and I could have this wrong so perhaps you can correct me but it seems that not so. Many designers are thinking that they're actually making audio for the end user. All all all day will receive is audio. So has disowned good. It has to the for example A designer could create their script as in the words that the text to speech or perhaps voice actor would say and they could convince events themselves that they've made a brilliant script and it's like hey great job done you know I've I've written something which really represents presents our design. What we wanted to be then? Of course that's not out of the user will receive it they will hear it and when you take your script and it's you know transferred to voice. It is a transformation and some things are improved in some things actually get the they need fixed there. You know you can. You can end up with the wrong intonation on on on a line in the script which actually gives a different meaning than what you intended during a healthcare up you I would say you have to be so careful to to get the trust of the user and to make sure that they're comfortable giving intimate details and if you're coming across across Lake Voice Jones Lake some kind of really you know brush or overly confident or perhaps even slightly angry agree type of character than of course can get wrong results. You know the way I see it is that you have the the WHO as in the personality of who is speaking you have what they say the script and then you have how they say it and these three things really have to work in sympathy with each other. You know the the intonation can really make a huge difference to the end result so so will use in the beginning when you first text to speech is that it misses. What does it miss our all of? Who is speaking was said and how it said? All of those three things does text. Speech Fail on all of them motives fail and some of them are wet. What is it itself down well? In terms in terms of WHO's speaking with text to speech you they have a generally you know if we think of Amazon polly we have a few options in the most Common languages or the languages that are really focusing on like American English. They have quite a few different voices. They're so so with that you could perhaps create some kind of persona which is you know represents the brand or whatever you're you're a of your designers China's what voice will say that's really up to you. I think text to speech. It's not going to write the script for you. So that's that's not really relevant but then I would say the last part how it said. We've text to speech. That's where the real challenges because if if you take your line of script and put it into the text to speech engine with no SNL. I'm do play it back then. You might be lucky and you might get the right intonation and it might sound correct for the scenario and if it isn't much chance have you go. You can fix it you know. How far can you go with? SNL There's no. As far as I know at the moment Amazon have happy inside emotions and then nursing news reader and in no way knocking them because still all. The advances or massive constantly text to speech is getting better but from the point of view of creating the right intonation. SNL You really can't do. Oh so much. It is quite limited. You can't simply create some emotion which you're aiming for. I would say the things that it does best is the you can help with the users cognition. You can slow things down and give them pauses and those are of course extremely useful. But it doesn't affect the intonation or the personality or the character you know you're you're able able to create an identity with Mel from my perspective Interesting so what about So Amazon the Amazon suite of stuff is one thing like Amazon. Paulie sweet voices that you can use Google have Hum kind of the number of different voices that you can choose from Konya necessary. I mean we've worked with us on your right that it you do have trouble making it pronounce things in certain ways. If you WANNA come back like emotional something I know but what about things like some of the things that touted as pretty good is your he likes solve liability. Come across Lia- bird. Yeah sure sure. I'll play a little clip here and it'll be interesting to get your perspectives on how this sounds compared to something like This will one second I everybody. This night I'm happy to share with you. A small Paul announcement about a cool start up. Call -Vivor they launched today their website where you can create a digital copy of your voice. They only need you to record one minute of audio. This is just the beginning and they're working hard to improve the results. What about that is that is better than Alexis de is still sound fairly weekly thoughts thoughts on Sunday night live at now so it's going to be available any mobile on premise of Texas beach voice? I as far as with acquisition. It's something brilliant that they're working in a podcast company. which isn't it I know? A lot of people are very excited eight to devote that. Well the thing was that is that it's voice cloning right So what they allow you to do. Is You for example if you wanted to clone your voice Cain I imagine they have the the tool where you would do it. So you record a certain amount of material you and then you could synthesize your voice saying whatever you want and from what I hear there. That was article Bama Rights. At least against. No it's clearly him and this is a slightly different area where they've copied his intonation simply because they had that material material to work with and it does sound like him. You know I can tell that synthesized it's definitely not a live recording him but still it's very good and But then if you had that material and you wanted to make barrack Obama say something in a any kind of way like to be wistful you know suddenly be very subtle and like like. He's speaking to his daughter when I think he has a daughter when you speak into his child when he's putting her to bed. Do you know you speak in a different way. It's like you use your kind of tender close for us. I speak to my kids a completely different way than I speak to. Anybody boaty because this is just how we use our voice. These are just like fundamentals of hoagie express ourselves and I think in voice design. We need to be able to use those fundamentals. You know the facts. We do speak differently in the difference scenarios. So that's why would get really to me that live bird example zones very good. I just wonder like where you could go from them. They're going to use it in some kind of design. I did a bit of work with a company from Toronto called resemble were also Oh doing voice. Cloning and their results are very good. And what it's really doing is you're solving a few problems. Oh you're solving the fact that you can create content very quickly. The recording voice actors is usually very expensive expensive and and you also need to give them extremely clear guidance on what you want otherwise they just have to guess good ones will. Oh of course ask you but still you need to know what you're going to tell them. I think what's happening is that we're solving problems. But the the aspect of intonation. which if you hire a voice actor you get their intonation as part of the Fi you know you get personality Tinder intonation they will look at your script and think of the best way to present this? And that's what you get. But if we use voice cloning or text to speech we solve all the problems but the intonation hasn't been solved someone still has to design that and traditionally only using a voice actor it would have been the actor a Nev- it's up to the designer. I even wonder if this isn't going to be a new job role role in the future. Because surely there's going to be a lot of content that's going to need this kind of Manipulation to to find how things should should be saved in different contexts. Maybe I'm just trying to create a joke for myself because I know exactly what I would like to. You know I really want you know. It's it's like who's if if we have a lot of content that we need to to to say in the right way to really strengthen the message that send the script. You know the best people for that aren't the voice. Actors voice directors the ones who are really in June with these nuances his voice. You know I think it took me quite a long time to train my ears to hear these things because it seems the instinctively. We know when it's wrong but it's it's really hard to actually say how to improve it. It's one of the problems of working with audio if we don't really have a well-defined language for talking about sound if I can pick a little bit out of thread that what you're saying here and I'm making this up in the spot so I may be way off but when we think about lyre bird or these neuro voices that are coming through Paulie now if I understand you correctly it sounds like we're getting to a point where these voices sound real but they don't sound a human. Yeah Yeah we can make that distinction there. Yeah it's it's the interesting thing it's like the it's becoming more and more convincing that you're listening into a real person but that's kind of creating this interesting challenge the you can tell it. Sounds like a human. But there's something strange about so perfect sounding but as no emotion you know this I I would say that one of the worst things Voice designers could possibly do is to try and convince the user. It's a real person because there are these. Tom Clues that we pick up on I even I wonder if maybe we could use is one of the examples. I've prepared for you because I think this would be a good moment. Yeah do you feel about your definitely. Yeah which one do you WANNA look up every breath you take every breath it's called sting sting Alexis thing that one okay queuing up now go every breath you take every move you make every bond you break every step you take all be watching you every single day every word you say every game game you play every night east. I'll be watching you right. Well if you imagine a scenario like if there's a skill which is a lyric skill somebody knows their favorite song and they want to hear the lyrics. You know there are many websites that do you can look up the lyrics every breath you take which is of course what I did to get material but when you read the words on the screen you know you're essentially just reading the lyrics or perhaps in your head you're singing along but if you hear someone actually saying the moat load. It's like the intonation for me the intonation of Alexa there is a little bit creepy. It's like it's zones a little bit chilling whereas when sting sings it he to me he sounds almost paternal you. I know it sounds like it could be a song between lovers but at the same time he's like I'm gonNA protect you. I care about you. I'm going to protect you. But the truth of that song which he's admitted is he wrote about a stalker so there is a little bit sinister kind of vibe to it. It's just the way he sings in such a sweet and soft and caring way I think is the reason why most people people are completely unaware of what this song is actually about. I think and I hope that none of your listeners are no unhappy with this. I think people actually the house this plate that their weddings. And so you know. And they're unaware of this fact. It's an amazing song as brilliant as beautiful and I can listen to forget this fact that he actually wrote it with that in mind so the reason I wanted to share this with you this because the intonation of how e sings this song gets a different result than what he apparently actually wrote the song about it right and if it's okay There's actually a number of short story example. I would like to play. No which is how nine nine thousand nine thousand out of your evening. Read me out his day. Okay so very very famous example of a voice assistant so to speak you. You know how from the Space Odyssey Phil and one thing. I noticed when you know like two or so years ago when there was lot of discussion about these new voice. Assistance was that people were going on Amazon. Paulie and putting putting in those words to get it to sound like how you know. There's so much excitement and really how he sounds complete. The actor spoke with no intonation. That was his point he wanted to sewn just a inhuman and what happened was Anthony Hopkins and when he was researching Hannibal Lecter for silence of the lambs film. This was his main inspiration for Hannibal. Lecter talks wanted to disown disowned. Blake how you know with no intonation into sound Basically like he has no empathy. You know I'm not a psychologist but my mums is like a psychologist talking to her about this. And is it. Isn't it true that psychopaths they can't feel empathy a- and it's not totally true. It's it's of course more complex than that. Essentially they their relations or their ability to empathy. Empathize is different from most people and so kind of leading to here. Is that if we have voice assistant who sounds sounds like how then. I'm kind of drawing the conclusion that we've got on empathy is the word unsympathetic or voices. who are perhaps something like a serial killer? And I'm not saying that everybody's skills sounds like that but it's something we you have to be aware of the the you know if the voice has no empathy then it it could have effect on people. It's it's chilling. It's it's like the flip side of it is that sometimes you might actually really benefit from having an over emotive voice because that might actually put people at ease you know. I can definitely see the value in that. Sometimes we want the the persona in the way it speaks speaks to be as subtle as possible so that people don't really focus on it you know. There's definitely a lion could be drawn. Yeah it is it is a I mean if Alexa Google Assistant Siri all of these voices citizens if they are to become these companies would like them to become which is essentially the companion is with you at all times that can be there to serve. Whatever need you have any point in time throughout your day wherever you are then maybe the the needs to be some degree of relationship that you have with it and it seems is often what you're saying intonation and empathy All things that contribute to voice assistant being able to build dot kind of relationship with people that will have them using it and having a bond with over time is that right yes. That's how I feel. I think no. Who would really you know? I think it's very important for designers to think of the the intonation and the embassy also the assistant and hopefully in the future in a while I would really hope is going to happen is the ability of the assistant to judge our intonation empathy would mean that it would become reciprocal Becomes a look where it can tell how we were feeling Ling from our intonation and respond to that you know I really feel. It's this is how we talk. You know if if I'm speaking to you or Dustin and you tell me you've had a terrible day. I'm going to change my vocal intonation and I'm not going to think about. It's not going to be a choice. It's just GonNa be simply the fact that you know as humans we do care about each other we do. Our voices are so expressive recive in that way. But I think that for many people they they've never really had to think about this or listen closely to it because we just stood. It's incredible expressive. We are with our voices you know we can do so much with them without really considering what we're actually doing you. You've got some kicker examples here. These examples should be to realize these are interesting. This is more about branding. Okay so if you. I think it's a very good example because kit kat tough that slogan have a break advocate cap right. And this hasn't changed for. I don't know apparently sixty or more years. Because on these adverts they've been using it like their early stuff goat here's from nineteen sixty two so really what I was wanting to show with these examples is how you you can get a different feeling from the same words depending on how it said. You know the set the same same branding slogan so. Maybe if you wouldn't mind starting starting with the one thousand nine hundred sixty to go break. Nineteen sixty two exactly. It's like if this voice this was used now it would sound Roenick nobody. It's so you know golly. It's so overly formal and you. No people probably aren't going to response to that. Well no because it sounds it doesn't they. Don't connect with it unless you're going for a kind of ironic effects it's where you're trying to reference the sixties and then as a different example would be props rock rock break break. Have a kit Kat. Yes so much much more energetic and much more like somebody who you could be sitting next to the pope you know almost almost fell Izzo US trying. That'd be cool with the Little Kit. Kat Brake Brake Kit Kat way pronounces kick cutler. It's almost as if he's trying to be really cool and hip in it. I will. Also that's the thing that's the global stock where he doesn't actually pronounce everything he he says. Have a kit Kat Kit Kat and this kind of thing it's like it's not actually properly spoken still sounds sounds good and these are. These are examples of the way people do speak in Glasgow. They're kind of famous for that where everything is set. You know there's not sel enunciation of every character syllable And then I dunno never example perhaps a South Africa Africa. Go a break. Have a kit Kat. So of course South African accent on there and I mean. What's what's your impression in from? The does it make you feel compared to the others break. Have A kit. Kat What did you think to sin. I can separate it too much from the music it's it's definitely a little more upbeats. It's certainly not our almost getting a little bit kind of Very very persuasive to pronounce it really really well sounded a little bit Kinda tongue-in-cheek candlelight you know. Yeah Yeah it's it's much in comparison to the rock version. It's more intimate right. I wouldn't say you know. She's not being seductive. It's more like she's up close and she's just speaking to you whereas the rock version could be a guy shouting out to remove people so these examples are just really. I guess giving you a feel of how The the different ways of saying it could speak to one target demographic or one group of people and you know we we the designer should really be considering this you know how the final voice will affect the script that they've written. What's what's the impact of not? Having more flexibility all the text to speech all the impact of not using you know recorded voice talent. Like if this if what you've described Sofa which which are Kinda subscribe to you know I. Do you think that when you look at the world of TV and film and all post production it goes into it to make everything sound absolutely perfect and you compare that to smell it. Sticks mass because as a device for example where were of the interactive stories and stouffer usually kind of Interacted with if you treat the smart speaker. AK- Oz another TV or another smartphone in terms of its ability or potential to be a content distributor. And you want to try and treat it with the same. I am kind of stunned. Is that as you would treat kind of audible content on other channels and I couldn't see how text speech for example is with that down on in terms of the quality of it. What's the impact of addressing that that kind of stuff or no including voice in your skills? Yeah it's a great question because of course we have to be aware of the fact that you know for a skill you might have a huge amount of content to record and so a voice talent is gonna take a long time. It's going to be expensive so in terms of impact. It's I would say that it it depends you know it really depends on the scenario. I think in some situations it's going to be very important like I use the example of healthcare earlier earlier. I think in that situation. You really need to be careful how things are said and to get the users trust same with probably banking whereas if it's something that's turn to think of examples but like a weather skill or something like this then I don't think people all care they just want information and if it's presented in a way that is enjoyable and doesn't take too long they'll be happy so I would say in terms of impacts are definitely different degrees to where it could really affect the the impact of the skill Voice published a study that looked human recorded audio on. I think they found that human recorded audio versus just text to speech has more chance of converting people into think it's Was the the triumph. Sell something that I think. The found that the human recorded voice vice perform better at. I'm sure I've come across research. I forget where it was formed bump reshoot I've come across research which showed that papal struggle listening to text to speech over a long period of time. Yeah we we actually found that. When I was working localization we were testing text to speech and we found that after about seven minutes we were losing people whereas with a lifestyle island view of course in audio book? You can go a long time but generally for a tutorial or something you could get maybe ten fifteen twenty minutes without some kind of break in the material so yeah it's it's it really can make a difference. There was it also today voice spot I saw can sell shared a link which was to remember. What was it was I think from the University of Waterloo? I guess I should probably check this. But basically it was a a study on how people relate to voice assistance and that word to how the anthropomorphized what they're listening to. According to this study Siri came off quite badly. CIA University of Waterloo study found consumers beliefs. Siri is disingenuous including compared to Alexa as genuine caring. I would really love to read the report and find out more about it because it seems that they've only just released released this little trailer and there are actually going to present. I think in April. But that's really it's like people are listening to this voice and they are imagining who they're talking to even though it's it's synthetic persona doesn't touch the exist in the real world and that's you know that's partly what all users do when they speak voice assistant you know I'm it's in in the Kathy Pearl Book that You know there's no such thing as a voice assistant with no personality the user just imagines who they're talking into an fills in the gaps so I would say that the designer really needs to consider this and make sure that it's going in the right direction you know you can't design every little tiny detail but you need to make sure that you're not you're not getting the result you know you need to consider the unhappy paths. Swear the the way that the assistant speaking isn't a Undoing your good work when you designed and created your scripts Um so what's the what's this. What's the is that the solution is not from what you're saying? Just there in terms of different different. Things require a different approach. So for the weather you mentioned Texas speech might be fine before something that is maybe a little bit more long-form you might WanNa think about voice. Actors is a solution solution to just take on a case by case basis and use the appropriate voice talent dependent on Y'all scenario or is that still a case asphalt pushing forward the kind of innovation on the text to speech and hold this somehow at some point. We'll be able to control all kinds of intonation intonation features with Texas beach. Yeah it's a great question because I think text to speech is is going to be used more and more as voice. Cloning you know they're they're very similar technologies in my eyes and I would. I'd say that we you know we have to use text to speech because it's so convenient and especially on quick projects where there's lots of the veterans you know you. You really need the instant results. I would say that hybrid approach you know. That's that's that's probably where the solution lies if if you have material that you're sure this isn't going to change then. Why not get voice Dr to to read it in the most engaging way possible and then that becomes a sonic logo so to speak it becomes familiar the users come back to the related to your material whereas if there is something which you're going to you know that you're going to have to adjust and improve upon or you know there there will be new material added than probably text to speech or voice? Cloning is the best way I would say. That voice. Cloning itself it does kind of straddle the two areas where you can use voice actor and and then synthesize new material based on their voice If if you use You know liar bar door resemble or a a voice cloning technology so yeah I would say it's going to be a hybrid. I think Texas beach considering how much development is happening in that Tyrian. It's just going to get better and better. I have no doubt and of course now they have to emotions. You know this. This is only going to get better and better. I hope to the point where we will be able to design quite human human sounding emotions. Make sense and you know it will need to be designed suddenly. You're going to be designer looking at Lake like you know. I don't know two hundred or so emotions and all of the shades in between and then what do you pick. What symbol for the scenario So it's almost as though the job of the design becomes not just the floor and the conduct supposed structure and the the dialogue. But then it's it's more around the delivery of that dialogue as we have engaged user. That point in time we also has was to send you. You seem seem fairly Very quiet are you. Are you soaking all in on thinking about. Are you Sitting on the fence. What's your thoughts? No I think this is fascinating. I unlike you can't have as much expertise in this field. But certainly it's interesting to see where you're where technology fails today and think about wearing might excel on the future. It's a little scary in a sense I know now we talk a lot about deep fakes etc etc.. But if we do get to the point where we already have Photos letter letter of fake people. That look like real people. What happens when we have voices? That sound like people I think certainly you know we talk a lot about duplex right and and that sounded really real but it is within a very. I think you would say this is within a very narrow domain. Make no one's no one's calling duplexes and calling anyone crying but it will be exciting to see. Maybe a little bit frightening as well to to see where this heads. Yeah just to comment on that you know. Of course. I really hope that it doesn't go into areas. Where Larry it's manipulating people? In extreme way of course who knows what will be done with it but I would say just to create empathy with the user on You know like if you go into the shop you know any shops that you like to go into. There's probably someone who serves you there that you you like that you go back to them and you don't have any kind of dramatic conversation that you feel that. This person is serving you. Well like they care about you getting a good experience. And that's how I see this that it's it's not about any kind of extremes of emotion lake. Thank you get in film and dramatic media. It's more about the subtleties and the way that we naturally talk to each other. We we we manipulate voice just to to draw each other in closer or to to make some things seem lighter than actually is is just because we don't want to be serious all the time that makes perfect sense it makes sense. That is really really interesting Stephan. I'm glad we got to to get into detail about not because I think you're right in terms of Texas H has come a long way on. We see in canoe solve innovations on kind of the things being taken forward all the time. And you're right it depends on the use case. If you just want. The weather might not necessarily be as important but I do think if if these assistance to be what they could be and what kind of potential of them is which is to be the thing that is ever there an an always on hand to conduct do whatever you need it to do then the does need to be a degree of trust in there and ultimately humans build relationships through you know a number of different ways one might be body language. It might be I contact but I think not a voice and how you talk to someone certainly is a really the important way of how we build relationships. We communicate with each other and I think that I think you've hit the nail on the head with with how things said being being important just as important as what's actually said in the first place what what Welcome people kind of reach out to you then Ben if you know if they WANNA kinda get hands on some of your dialogue craft in majesty to reach out to you and find out more about what you will to tears so website is much design so that would be a good place. But also I'm usually on linked in you know that's my social media of choice so I'm really happy to talk talk to anybody who wants to know more of just reach out to me and you know I freelance. But I love to work with startups. I would consider said our roles in in companies who think I might be useful so please. Let's start the conversation. Oh Cool Nice permanently and finally and he any resources that you would recommend people who Wanna learn more either about Diallo aloke design or about kind of sound design in general anything that will help designers and developers research and learn a little bit more about how they they might be able to improve the audible experiences that they created. Yeah sure it's a great question or a great thing to share There is is a fantastic documentary called. I know that voice Sorry I know that voice and it's basically clearly A lot of the best voice artists in Hollywood talking about their craft and there they really go into developing having the characters you know have the characters speak and I love it. It's a really great great film. There is another book called the human voice. A need to check by the author is called Carpe and this was actually the first Suka read on voice and it really just hoax me. I don't know if many people know about it was published a I think fifteen years ago or so and it goes into intonation quite early on and there's a lot of very good points in there so these two I would say are fantastic but of course really. We don't have to go far to listen to people talking. You know like I remember. You had a great podcast with manmade music. And Yeah and he said you know he advised people. Just go and listen into the world and you know. Open up your ears and it's really the same you can. It's it's maybe not advisable to set on a bus or subway and listen closely to what people are saying around you but but it's very easy to catch snippets of hope people talk to each other. Even if you're in a shop in the accu- listen to you know how the shopkeeper speaks to the customers and is it good is it bad. Are they doing right or doctor. Oh I've had very good very bad experiences with doctors where sometimes it didn't feel that I trusted them and why was the it could be body language. It could be some signs just in the way they're acting or maybe it's in their empathy in the way that they connected with me And so yeah these are some that would recommend if you know trying to think of some more and I can share them with you and maybe you put them into the mm-hmm for the podcast show notes. Definitely you mentioned the The Joel Beckerman Poke Austin poke. Poke costs is one of the most listened to on still gets quite a lot of people listening to it even today and it was last year. I think it wasn't. It still gets quiet quite lawless. Nothing is because it's opening the door and shine light into an area of the industry. That doesn't get anywhere near as much attention as I think is warranted and I think that this conversation that we've had delve into text speech recorded voice in the importance of how you says something to build relationships with people to encourage coach longtime engagement. I think this is just as deep on just as valid as the compensation we hope. Joel Beckham is I'm confident that this is going to be one of those evergreen conversations. That people will still be listening to to this time next year without without Ben. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been absolutely immense. Thank you so much thank you. It's been a pleasure it's really lovely to talk to some Yeah I really hope that this is going to be useful to to your listeners. Thanks so much man. That was Ben McCulloch of conscious design. Thank you for joining us. I really really enjoyed the conversation and I'm confident that you will have done as well met at this five humidity sponsor could sign. I mentioned at the end of the episode of the Joel. Beckerman was one of one of the most downloaded and listened to poke US episodes. And and I'm confident that this will be to it and the the reason for that is because what we've been trying to do is to bring some voices to the podcast Thakin challenge what we might see as the norm and I think that we do see text to speech as the norm and whenever Alexa Amazon announced that there is a new emotion on the News Rita Voice. It gets to be honest. Well warranted publicity when you compare to a real human voice it still is still has ever wear to go on. I think in all the research that voice but did looking out human voices versus Texas speech. Voices was an interesting study on. I think Ben's experienced in dialogue added to in working with dialogue for so long in different languages. Different locales. He's really really interesting perspective and and when he said are the very beginning he said that the first time I heard Text to speech I thought and then our thought he was going to say if I thought Oh my God this is fantastic. But what he actually said was. Oh my God this is terrible so it's really interesting. How people who maybe aren't from an audio production background might look Texas patients that it's fantastic to be able to generate speech on the fly apply and is it really is compared to you know having to bring a voice actor in and recalled the whole thing but it's so interesting to get someone who's been working with dialoque look for so long to share their thoughts on what they think about it and how different that can be and I do think that as I mentioned towards the end if voice assistance are going to become vigo we go to companions I with digital companions? Are there on hand to do what we need them to do when we need them to do it. And we end up building same kind of connection to our voice assistance as we do Utah mobile phone and believe it or not we do have an emotional connection to our mobile on you. Just pick up. Someone's four minutes unlocked and wash the terror in their fares as you stop browsing through you therefore we are so connected to those devices emotion. May It's unbelievable nothing. I develop the same kind of emotional connection to voice assistance and to trust them enough to be able to bunk on them and to be able to do the kind of things that we do a mobile shop and all that kind of stuff true stick with our data that we do need to have emotional bond and I think the how it speaks is just as important as what is actually said in helping to achieve the so. Thank You ben joining us. Thank you as always unas always boys and goes thank you for this day until next time so you let.

Ben McCulloch Texas Alexa Amazon US Larry it Google Paulie Texas beach Voice production Lake Voice Jones Lake Dustin Glasgow Czech Republic Rita Voice Diallo Canady Texas beach SNL Bruns
USC (McCollough) and UCLA (Bolch)

Arrive Early, Leave Late

36:40 min | 2 years ago

USC (McCollough) and UCLA (Bolch)

"Every week. We brainstorm for the next episode of the arrive Levy podcast, throw, different ideas. Who do you wanna talk to you? What's hot what's trendy? We can easily do a podcast about the professional teams ever Sigui heck ever debate. But the college sports also heavy huge fan base in Los Angeles about the whole city arrive early legally podcast for me. I have friends that went to USC went to UCLA. I never really shows one school. I've covered both schools. But I never was that all man at all USC, all UCLA. I love going to the tailgates at the roles bowl. I love going to the tailgates on campus at USC. I love seeing the energy and the by an enthusiasm that people have for the schools and a lot of times. It's a minute. We didn't even apply to these schools, but we have a devotion to the powder. Bloop the cartilage goal. You know, you have his energy this connection with these schools when you cover a team, it's one thing for when you cover a school. It's different because you hear from the rabid fans. You hear from the alumni heck, you'll even here from the administration. Now, not the SEC where that's where they live and die with their teams. But the fan base and some California four USC and UCLA, you know, it should be commended they go up they show up. They get there. And they take a lot of pride and we've all seen it. Right. Those house divided banners USC UCLA USC UCLA week. You get better pick aside. And today, we'll be talking with the beat writers that cover the schools Brady McCulloch coverage USC, he's nude LA be interesting to see and hear his perspective. And Ben Butch who's been with the LA times for a while used to be on the USC basketball beep covered the NBA now, he's in Westwood entrenched with the Bruins. And we'll start this college. Addition of the arrive early legally podcast with Brady McCulloch be on the one ten at USC where he covers the Trojans. Now you cover USC, but what is your name? My name is Brady McCulloch. Okay. I look at it. And there's a j in front of your name. Sometimes right. That's right. You have a J dot Brady. Yeah. J Brady McCulloch James is my first name never went by James. Parents only call me Brady, I feel like this was like a thing in the eighties. A couple of my buddies growing up had the same thing. And one was a James Robert, I actually didn't go by Robert. But I think it was a thing to to go by middle name. And then the first time I wrote a story for the Michigan daily student paper at the ovum mono Jaber, eighty Senate cool. I well. This looks cool when you got hired on j Brady McCulloch that just sounds. I wanna buy his book. Have you know, it's it's on my life agenda crime series. Maybe. Right, right. I sound like a detective almost right James McCulloch. James McCulloch university of Michigan. Yeah. I went to them. So the big house and the big house quietest hundred ten thousand people in the country in any given moment. But this year getting pretty loud some like in that, you know, how did you end up at university of Michigan while I finished high school in Buffalo, New York. And I was a big college football fan growing up. If you looked at my bio at a college football website when I was thirteen years old and real. Yeah. So you had a website when you're thirteen. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, totally exactly what was on. Not that young. It was my dad was a website designer beginning in the mid nineties and built me say, and I'd go on there and rank the top twenty five teams in the country every Sunday after all the games have been played. And by the time, I was a freshman at Michigan. I was getting like thirty five thousand hits Philly people didn't even know I was just some kid, but I'd get emails from people on my teams not ranked high enough. People out totally people were all over me better than the coaches poll. I'm sure I was put a lot more effort into it than the coaches put him put it that way. This is your first year in LA, correct? That's correct. Yeah. I wanna know who you are. Jay Brady McCulloch who had a website where you thirteen people. Didn't know they were arguing with the kid. No. I don't think. So awesome. No. So so I that's where I like, you know, kinda got into everything. And at that point. My college decision wasn't. You know, sure I wanted to be a good school. But mainly I wanted a big college football experience. And so I was like, okay. What's within, you know, five six hours of other buffalo or when my dad was in Dallas and Michigan was within a five hour drive and great academic program. And and had that big college football experience that was my priority who was at Michigan. When you went any teams any good teams great. It was a couple years after they won the title on ninety seven. Lloyd, Carr was the coach Tom Brady was the quarterback. The first time. I went to a game on campus of senior in high school went over to watch the Michigan game. I was taking official visits. I was like I need to go to game at university of Texas in a game at university. Michigan see like where should end up and don't tell angel, but I to the university of Michigan. They'll hook 'em horn for you know, ho- Comorans. Yeah. The friends that went to Michigan. I'm born and raised in LA in there. Oh, we're going to I'm going to go to Michigan. Do you know it's cold up there a winter jacket? So you're you're. Yeah. Michigan reference. Cool paper. Did you cover Tom Brady? I was I was a year after Tom. Okay. He was five years older than me. So you just knew you wanted to be a sportswriter. No. I didn't grow up partly because I grew up in town called Shreveport, Louisiana where the Shreveport times was a great paper. I'm sure, but it wasn't like I was a kid who's growing up reading the paper every morning with his parents at the breakfast table, or whatever. But I knew I wanted to be Lee Corso I wanted to be on college game day. I wanted to be that point Craig James. I don't think Kirk herbstreit was on the show yet. I want to be college football analysts. That's why this website and everything. And then once in Michigan I wanted to cover the football team. 'cause I saw the students covering the team in the paper. And I'm like, oh, that's cool. It's like never connected with me even until probably like a year in like, wait sports writing is like an actual career. I could actually do this for a living. But it was not a thing where I was thinking about that. Aspect of it until actually started writing for the student paper. And now, you're covering USC another historical what the light come in and covering USC as a person with no L A roots. Or no connection to anybody in the town. It's actually exactly what you want. I think I think you can bring fresh eyes to something that people think they know extremely well and do know streaming well, but I think people enjoy getting a new perspective and a fresh perspective on something that you know, if someone was covering the team that had a bunch of preconceived notions or devoted their life to it. I feel like they wouldn't maybe get the same outlook on something that I would bring and I think one of the cool things journalistically. I'm always interested in putting myself in situations where I'm covering something. New so many think that's for me. It was a cool opportunity for that reason. If you're talking about USC, you'd better know what you're talking about because these people live and die with their carnal and gold much like they do it probably Michigan. And they do at Texas. And I'm thinking LA, they get the nocco. They have the beat. There's not many things. Going on. But they packed the call Siham and they get set when they're not winning. And right now is not a good time. If you're clay hill in the football coach, no, I it's not the seat is at minimum warm. And and I think a lot of the the people that are the live in dyin types. They're already done with it. They've checked out. It's fascinating to me as an observer of college football and college football kind of junkie just how these things happen. You know Helton in two years finishes one year with a Rose Bowl victory and the next year with a Pac twelve title. This is the first Pac twelve championship. They've had in basically a decade. You would think this guy would be getting statues ready, but even going into the season there's a lot of unease still about him. And I think it's way he carries himself. He's a nice guy people. I think when you're a nice guy Ali g Barry, very, yeah. Yeah. Very golly. Jeeves just kind of of Texas Texas, kind of drawl every day you show up to practice addresses. The media is happy. Tuesday, everybody, you know, everything is extra positive extra gooey. And I think that the hardcore USC enthusiasts doubt, his pedigree is a guy who wasn't head coach before the guy got pretty good results. You can't argue with that is I two years but going into the season, I think he was going to have to that didn't buy him a lot of time, which is interesting is it unfair the criticism. I'm I'll be I'm not watching you right now. 'cause I was worried about the dodgers in the World Series or LeBron every single day. It's you know, it's LeBron Emily, right? Yeah. But now it's kind of settled down you pay attention to college football. Wait a minute. Essex should be better. Like is this guy over his head? It's tough as a beat guy because I it's my job to be objective. And I do think there are signs that he could be in over his head their signs that the program at minimum. This off season has to think about how to toughen up these players, mentally physically. The does rang a little soft where able to watch practice. They're actually one of the only big programs in the country that allows that so, you know, we have the ability to watch most programs are closing you'll see anything certainly of US's caliber. But most power five programs are not opening many UCLA UCLA exactly if you talked to ban, you know, that. Yeah. Basically, every workout every practice was open. We got month of August. I was out there every day. And you're watching you know, the quarterback competition that was won by the true freshman JT Daniels. That's the most important story. But you're there every day. You're watching the way they practice. Your watch them the way they do. We go about things. There's no way there's a power five program in the country that gives the media access like USC does. And so you don't wanna take that for granted. But what it also does? It does give you a real ability to say, you know, they're only practicing with full pads once a week zero point these things out, and I think that's part of the problem, honestly with Helton with the die hards who actually follow this stuff every day, and where they in full pads non-full pads, the internet fan sites are given that stuff every single day and all they're all out there talking about oh, you SC's non pads on pads on twin on a Wednesday of a game week. You know, you're open yourself up to more criticism by being open. What at least they're being transparent. It's interesting on that level. And also this is a time for football where there's a lot of questions about Claire health player brain health long-term. Is it a bad thing that Hilton and the Trojans aren't doing a ton of tackling a practice and art putting their players that that kind of risk at practice. I don't think it's a bad thing. But I do think that what I see on the field on Saturday in. There are signs of. Practice. There's not a hard edge. And you need a hard edge to win in college football. Now, do you need to do that by being their brains together practice three or four times a week? I don't think that's the case. But they've got to find a way to develop an edge to this program, and that's up to Helton. And he's got the end of the season to show something to give short of beating Notre Dame in the season closer, I don't think these going to be able to convince the fan base, but he can for number of reasons. Convinces boss Lynn Swann to keep him on for another year. Lynn Swann on his side that let Kirker here's the thing. The dreaded pota- confidence. Okay. And there's a reason that it's called that. While swan comes out last week. I think feeling a number of things after Helton makes the change to take over play calling from t- Martin two fires offense of line. Coach the first true admission from Helton that things aren't going to be going this season. So swan I think felt like he needed to come out and say, maybe just for recruiting purposes just to come out and say, hey, clay, Hilton as my guy believe in clay. Elden? I stand solidly behind Cleal. Those were the stand solidly was in quotes IMB really went on about ten minutes about why he thinks the clay Helton can be the guy to get this done. So it wasn't a casual vote of confidence. He really did go in on it. But by going on it you've put it out there that his job security is something to be talked about get that vote of confidence. Usually a few weeks later we've seen this movie. So many times sports. Hey, that's my guy. That's my guy sees it over. Yeah. We're gonna find the different way. I I hate speculating on somebody's job. It's it's what we do. And it just more of the casual observer because I don't cover the team any more. But you get that sense from the fans that they are so involved invested in this university as somebody who's from the outside you mentioned with Michigan cover, Kansas. Now, you hear the criticism of Helton from the fans he changes offense of line demotes t Martin. But then you wrote a. Story where you talked to t Martin most programs, you even know who this are because they're off limits to you here. How did you get the Tim tesla s I d get to you? How did you guys talk with t Martin? So this is an interesting development. The fact that USC again, they're so open, and they open themselves up to things through that as journalists. What I'm gonna complain that. There's good access. No. But if I wasn't thinking of it as a journalist, I would say, why are you letting so many people in it so open, I respect leave it open like totally SAD parm. They would always who do you need today. It was only above and beyond comedy and beyond. And it's an amazing thing. It is they treat themselves like professional game where it's like how we're gonna do this. How can we help it? We know the media's here you have a job. Let's help you. And it started with Pete Carolina. I talked to him about it. When I got the job. I was just like, well, how did this development? I think Pete Carroll was was all in on that. We've gotta act like at that point. They were the pro football team in town. They wanted to handle themselves, and, but as an example in doing the t Martin feature that I. Been reporting for number of of months off and on. I just kind of been sitting on it. Because I thought I found him an interesting guy period whether any of this was happening, and I called university, Alabama or emailed their sports information director and because their offense coordinator, Mike Loxley was the first coach to hire t Martin and New Mexico just looking for someone to give perspective on T in his rise to in coaching and whatnot. And Alabama writing back and says Nick Sabin doesn't allow our assistance to talk to media ever. And I said I just saw well this has nothing to do with Alabama says doesn't matter it's LSU week. Like, you know. So I thought that that was telling meanwhile, t Martin is in the midst is the news of USC last week, and because I had been working on this piece about him. Suddenly, he's in the news. And this is happening. I've got a reframe the story, and I was able to get t just by talking to I didn't need to go through USC to do it because at developed that number and he was in a mood. I think where he wanted his story told even more I think than he did two weeks before when I'd sit down with him for a longer interview. So t I think was feeling vulnerable. As you saw the story. I think was happy to kind of talk to me about his emotions new last week is everything was going on. So he was demoted from his job which have so he's offensive coordinator. And he was play caller primary. Play caller. I mean, clay Helton ca jump in with anything in any moment like any head coach, but thi was the play collar and so to be still named offense coordinator, he he is office coordinator and perform many of the same duties but on game day and throughout the week leading up clay Hilton is now call. Plays and coaching the team from that head coach perspective as well. The lineup. Fire him, you know, I don't know how much clay really felt like it was teased fault. I just think it got to a point where helton's was an offensive coordinator before he was a head coach the way he spun it anyway was that he'd been itching to call plays again part of who he is a coach had been three years. The offense was obviously struggling I don't think he would ever put all that on t- Martin. But I think you know, he knows how this game is played their foreign four, and you can't be foreign four at USC and just continually week by week not that it's his job to answer directly to fans because if any head coach did that drum selves nuts, and they would be paranoid all the time. And they would never give their program what they need. But you have to understand. I think that this is USC in at four and four you have to start showing people maybe not just the fans, but your boss and the people around the department the people who are in charge of filling these million dollar sweets next season at the renovated. Call see? And that's the other thing hanging over this is they've got all this invested in the new Coliseum. The renovations starts next year. I mean, they had the lowest attendance in Arizona state game that they've had since the I I think it was the first year p Carol but early two thousand so I mean, you're under fifty thousand on a -tendance, and you've got all this common next year. If you could tell when it's under fifty thousand eight you can definitely tell and, you know, you always wonder about the numbers, they tell you. But there's a lot at play will never know how much pressure. He had from swan to make a move of some kind to show people. I'm doing something. The spin was the clay did it himself and told swan I'm doing these things swan said, oh, yeah. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. Because it's all and then this thing it's all about spin. You know, you don't really know. You said you were sitting on that story, you're working on T reading your story it sounded like he was going to be more about T Martin who he is in college sports world. Yeah. That's the impression. I got the news happen and t- Martin is a year or two older than me. But I remember watching him win the national championship with the Tennessee volunteers and used to be always joke that you can't spell. Citrus Bowl without the UT because Peyton Manning was going there. And he won't be Florida Florida, and they would always go Citrus Bowl t Martin shows up and in the nineties. You didn't see many African American quarterbacks and the store you wrote how he wasn't recruited as a quarterback. He goes at Tennessee with the opportunity. He's now coach see many African American office coordinators and his son Kayden who's a fourteen year old quarterback Redondo high the meat after a game. And the sun comes up to tea and says, are you okay? Knowing that the data under pressure, and I'm reading as a father my son's a year younger than his in. I can't even imagine the pressure going on that then. No that your dad people saying he should be fired. Then you're playing football on your own. Pretty sure there's somebody that sacked the kid that day was your dad's sucks or this or your dad's than that. Like the story. You wrote one thing that throws four interceptions. Exactly, the kid seems like he's very mature young man t the Cobra here after you've been a black quarterback in the F. E C is really not anything people could say to me that. I haven't heard before what kind of person is t- Martin. And it just seems like he has the tunnel vision of I'm going to get through everything. That's exactly right and their stuff that I wasn't able to get into because you know, we work at a daily newspaper. You'll have so much space to lax, but he grew up in that traditional kind of sports tough background, you know, in mobile, Alabama raised by his great grandmother didn't have much didn't come for much really through some mentors. And in coaches was able to rise and become a really good player. He's basically what I was shocked by every week this year. This is my first year covering him, you know, but he'd come out, and he would talk every single week with grace and humility and take all the questions from those fan websites that want answers, you know, I want answers they really want answers about this offense, and what's going on because their peak into the people that are limited dying with it. And they feel it and t takes the questions every time, and you could just tell this is a guy with immense confidence, and it just sort of radiates from him. He didn't get defensive. He just sat there and took all the questions week after week. And that to me was just really impressive. It says a lot about him as a man, I did get some emails after people reading my story that I think people seeing the big picture of, you know, they're pretty happy guy like t Martin is at USC coaching some of their players because at the end of the day, these kids come to USC, and it's these coaches jobs shirt to win games. But they also have an ability. To really impact these kids at appear where everybody changes when their college. What's their life going to be like, what are they learning about themselves t Martin is the type of guy you trust to do that. Now has he had the coaching pedigree that some people would want to say, oh, this guy's deserving of being the office of coordinator USC, maybe not. But is he pointed out you could argue with the results year ago. Sam darnold thirty four thousand yards. Ronald Jones runs for fifteen hundred. They won the Pac twelve oh. Now, he's not calling plays anymore. A few years ago t mar was that hotshot, oh, he's going to be a head coach tune. He's on the fast track. They say life comes that you fast. Yeah. He's got to start over a little bit. Now in Tennessee job came open last year. He didn't get the kind of interest that he would have thought it all mater when his former head coach Phil Fulmer may the one making that call when they botched the whole thing and former jumps in you think that one of the first calls, it'd be t Martin and it wasn't. So I mean, he's taken some hits here and some some hits the Chen and people leave that story feeling as a this is a guy who can handle it be also got bigger things going on his life. He's got a fourteen year old kid who is one of the top young baseball talents in the country for his age group, the freshman and also a freshman starting quarterback in south bay. He's gotta be on command for that kid throw in randomly has got a son planet. Clemson right now. I mean, this guy touches every aspect of college football. That's why fascinating to begin. With was just this guy's literally lived every part of this whole thing this business of college football, you still I college football. Ta I I'm still so. Obsessed so create soaker US. My wife, I would watch and I try to but cover new ac- made a little tougher, but I would try to watch fourteen hours straight every every Saturday rain McCullough covering USC. Oh, it's a blast. There. It is. It's a blast. I thirteen year old me would would would be diet. So I better than living in Kansas. I live in the greatest place on her. They're never leaving. See I told you is awesome. Welcome. Yep. J Brady McCulloch by his crimefighting series. And what your social media just at Brady McCulloch? No, jay. Good stuff with Brady jump on the ten freeway like we're gonna sit in traffic. Right, matt. If you're going to the west side, you're sitting in traffic on the ten up the four or five two cents said unless you got a fee for background, Ben bulge covered. The UCLA Bruin for the LA times. Before we even start talking about Dede Reese in all the good food in Westwood village. We got talking about the football team. Maybe it's the basketball guy. I've known for a while back when Tim Floyd was chasing us around the Galen center. He was on the US basketball when OJ mail was there. Now, he's covering all things. UCLA Ben, bulge the pride of North Carolina State. How many years this for you now on these Ben, well, it's my second tour of duty with the Bruins? Actually, I did basketball for about a year and a half leading into the last lockout and be lockout. And then moved over to the NBA for five years, and then came back, let's see in two thousand sixteen because I decided I wanted to travel significantly less. So that was a big part of this move. But I also love college sports. I be remiss if I didn't say that. So very happy to be back and he'll be my third season back on UCLA. Now when you say on the UCLA beat reporter, what does that mean, it means that I basically live on campus between going to football. Basketball practices. I going to the Rose Bowl for game. So fortunately, I live right across Wilshire from UCLA. So my commute is down to about five minutes a day, which is unbeatable. But yeah, I pretty much live on campus and follow all UCLA sports doesn't UCLA practice at six in the morning for football. That was more of a gym more thing. Now. It's fortunately ship is moved it up to eight forty five which is much better for the body clock. So I only need about two cups of coffee instead of five what's the deal with chip Kelly. You know, it's interesting. He's pretty much lived up to the reputation that he had kind of a no nonsense straight shooter. He really likes to parse questions and really tear down any kind of language that he thinks is imprecise or questions that he thinks are too obtuse hill, basically shut down the question just based on that. He's very lawyer like which is interesting because his father actually was a trial attorney. So I see that influence coming through. But you know, he's a straight shooter. He's been very fourth. Coming with some things like as far as guys being out for the season with injuries, and he loves really technical football question. So if you come with the good football questions, he'll sit there and talk to you, basically as long as you want, but he doesn't like being questioned. I mean, nobody does. Nobody does in this in this industry is which you do. Yeah. I mean, it is interesting that that's the thing about chip. Right. He just wants to do his thing. And he doesn't care about the perception. Whether it's the boosters or the media, he's going to do chip and and good or bad. We have to live with it. Didn't you write a big feature? And like a background of who chip Kelly is before the season started without talking to chip Kelly. Yes, I did. And I did manage to quote him from something he said a few years ago where he basically said that he was probably a pain in the ass as a kid because he kept asking why? And I thought that was pretty much the perfect, quote, the that encapsulates the chip Kelly experience. But yeah, I wrote a big three part series. Basically kind of looking at how he got to UCLA. A and what made him who he is. And his rise at Oregon and fall in the NFL, and it was a lot of fun because my great bosses in LA times sports -partment, let me go to New Hampshire. They let me go to Oregon which a lot of places can't afford these days. So I was very grateful for that. And they also gave me plenty of time to write it. So I was very happy without turned out. So you go to where ship Kelly grew up where he was coaching. And does he know you're working on the story? Oh, yes. In fact, he actually gave me a dinner recommendation, which I thought was pretty hilarious. It was the puritan back room, which was this kind of little guess a good way to say it would be kind of a low brow. But not in a it's not good way. But just kind of very down home style place in his hometown of Manchester, and basically everything on the menu was breaded, and they had like thirty six flavors of ice cream in the line was like going out in the parking lot. So not really my kind of place. But I did enjoy what I add some fried fish, and I had some in Oreo ice cream. I love this. I called my doctor and said, we need to do another cholesterol. Check asap. Now, why didn't he cooperate with you? Well, let's just kind of the way ship operates. I mean, he's he's got a handful of national media guys. He's real close with Bruce Feldman at the athletes lives in south bay. I know him a real tight, and he actually led Pete Thamel with with yahu said in on a practice in spring, which I was kind of dumbfounded with that. But I was told that was just kind of observe on background. It wasn't really writing anything. But you know, there are some people that chip kind of give some special access to he's built up relationships with over the years, and I got to see a little bit of that. When we went back to Oregon last week in you know, he kind of had some kind of warm moments with some of the the local writers there. So it can be done the chip Kelly or can be penetrated and people can get closer to him. I if you keep trying I guess now on the football field and with the boosters administration. What's their impression of chip Kelly? The first year just we're gonna take our lumps and deal with it or they happy. What's the overall vibe? Yeah. You know, it's it's really interesting because I everybody. I knew that this team was not going to be a great team. But then I think that people just thought that chip Kelly was just gonna come in and use these Magginis formula to just will this team to seven or eight wins. And obviously we we've seen it hasn't come close to happening. And I was thinking about this yesterday. I think there's some pretty good excuses for why it hasn't happened. And maybe that chip Kelly shouldn't get as much blame as as he's getting right now on some of the message boards. I mean, this is like the fourth or fifth youngest team in the country. They've played one of the toughest schedules in the country. I think like their first five opponents at one point where like thirty six and five or something outrageous. They've had a ton of injuries. They're breaking in to new quarterbacks. Then they're learning new schemes along the way. So you add all that stuff up. And it's kind of a ready made recipe for disaster. And we did see some progress there with those winds over airs on back to back, and then some massive backsliding these last two weeks with blowout loss to Utah. Then just complete special teams implosion against Oregon that really had some fans kind of going off the rails and really questioning chip Kelly. But you know, you just have to look long-term right now. And this year is not going to be a good year. And they just have to kind of have that needle and trajectory pointed upward when they have these last couple of games here particularly against as C N Stanford. If you give chip Kelly the time she lives up to his contract. Can he turn around the Bruin program? Well, it's a million dollar question. Right. And I mean, I think it's still too early to say I think there's some people who are kind of questioning their recruiting right now. Because they've only got I think nine or ten guys firmly committed and it looks like they're going heavily after sleepers which was kind of what he did it Oregon. It was a big success air. But people are saying now that you've got this this access to the southern California talent base, which is as good as anywhere in the country. Why aren't you getting a bigger hall of four and five star guy? So that's going to be something that's gonna play out here next couple of months with early recruiting signing day in December. And then. The regular signing day in February and we'll get more answers. But right now, it is a little bit head-scratching as to why they don't have a little bit more of a bigger class ready to come because they got some huge holes at a bunch of positions including offense of line in linebacker. They just need bodies because they're really down to even some walk on got some playing time and some spots. So they really need to restock this roster with with kind of chips guys. And then we'll see what he can do. Chip kelly's. The big name has the big contract has some years guarantee. We can turn things around. Steve Alford on the basketball side is basketball season's around the corner. Is he on a hot seat to have to perform? I mean, there's some people. I think the last couple of years to get rid of offered over there. Right. Yeah. I mean they've phone plane but banners around Westwood twice in the last three years calling for him to get fired was just something that you never wanna see if you're the head coach, I really do think this is kind of a either a maker break year for coach offer just because UCLA basketball, sweet sixteens is great. But that's not. What you want long-term? And if that's as good as he can get you have to question, you know, is he the guy, and I think that's been going on for a couple years now. And as I wrote in my season preview buyout right now is three point six million, and Dan Guerrero, and that like department gave Jim more twelve million dollars to go away. So that's not really even factor that that could save him at this point. It's going to be all about the results on the court. And I think he's never won a Pac twelve regular season title. They've never made it past the second week of the NCAA tournament. So those are kind of benchmarks. I think that we're looking at this year at least get to the elite eight which is a pretty deep run into the tournament. And as we saw Ben Jalan, you know, he actually won the Pac twelve regular season his last year, and then went out in the first round the NCAA tournament, and that was the end of the Ben Jalan era. So it's gonna be interesting to see exactly what Seve offer needs to do. I asked him yesterday. What it Dan Guerrero, say that he needed to do any basically said there was nothing specific. So I'm sure in Dan Guerrero, mine he's got some ideas about what he. To see from UCLA in Steve Alford this year, the legacy at UCLA with basketball, the athlete department. Overall mean I'm not talking about basketball football baseball, track field, volleyball, every sport that you could think of over there. They aim to succeed. And they went championships. They probably themselves on winning titles at UCLA. And you just recently came out with the book one hundred things UCLA fan should know. And do before they die fertile. Congratulations. I didn't speak with an author and second of all what are some of those things that UCLA fashion. No, you know, obviously, I hit all major highlights things like John wooden. Jackie Robinson, all eleven National Basketball championships. The national football championship in nineteen fifty four. And I tried to hit the high notes of all the greatest players and coaches, but for me part of the fun was on earth thing some real under the radar nuggets. Like there was this alumni basketball game between North Carolina and UCLA and in the summer of eighty six at Pauley Potvin. Alien were on the sideline you had not only John wooden, but you Dean Smith and the rosters were so incredibly stacked and this still blows my mind to this day that Michael Jordan had to come off the bench for North Carolina that game he was just getting into his NBA playing days. But still I mean just just to imagine that is really incredible. So that was a really fun one. And then, you know, UCLA had an eight overtime in soccer championship game at the king dome in the mid eighties that they won and that was fun to go back and look at that. And just the exhaustion and the incredible stamina that takes to do something like that. So you know, it was really a learning experience for me. And really enrich. You know, what I do is a beat writer a lot. Do you ever give flack from the university or leg department for some of the things you right? Oh, of course, you know, there's things that aren't always the most positive reflections of the university. But you know, that's part of the job. You know, you have to not only obviously highlight things that are going. Well, but things that are not going. Well, that's kind of my my job, right? As. Report and a beat writer. So if I'm not, you know, irking them every once in a while, I'm probably not doing my job as well as I should recently. You wrote about the concussion protocol at UCLA you spoke with Josh Rosen. Who's now the quarterback for the cardinals the NFL and how it seems like the UCLA medical staff is overly cautious. Where guys are saying. They're being cleared by the private doctors UCLA doctors saying, no, what was it like reading that kind of because now the five players out for the season because of concussions. Yeah. It was. It was interesting because they did have five guys out for the season with concussions and not just out for the season. These guys are out for the season by season. So they were basically shut down at a time. When there was a lot of football after play, and I went around and did some asking around the Pac twelve and it turned out. There was only one other player Pac twelve wide who had been shut down for the season at that point. And that was a defensive back at Washington. So, you know, I tried to get some more clarity from UCLA and got a lot of pushback know, they're very private as far as. Discussing players medical records. So I didn't get much from them. But you know, I got a former NFL doctor to talk about things that might lead to a season ending concussion football after play and the big ones were you know, repeated concussions and just not feeling better. And also not wanting to put yourself at increased risk because you know, we all know that players who suffer concussions are putting themselves at risk things like second impact syndrome, which can basically alter your life and everything about it for the rest of your life. So people don't want to do that. And I I will say UCLA's credit. I think that they really are airing on the side of caution in these situations and even talked to one of the running backs Paulo all around funny. I did a follow up article in which he basically said I'm on board with this because I wanna have a healthy brain at age fifty as opposed to damage brain. So, you know, I'm not gonna say speaks for everybody in that situation. But I do think there is a level of appreciation that UCLA really is kind of safeguarding its players health. Very interesting stuff by Ben boats covers the UCLA. For the following him on Twitter at L A T B bolt LA times Ben bullets his book one hundred things UCLA fan should know. And do before they die available now bookstores or you can go to Trump books dot com and check it out and both always a pleasure. My man. Yeah. Good good talking about. I hope we can talk some Tim Floyd very soon. And that'll do it for another edition of arrive early. Leave late podcasts USC UCLA Tinubu role. We continue to build the momentum. We have here. Please. Let us know. What you like what you don't like off opinions that we listen to you guys because it's a podcast for the fans share rate. Leave us comments. We do appreciate you listening telling everybody about the rivalry le- podcast. I'm host the Duran engineered by Heflin produced by Dave wine Angel Rodriguez is sports editor Ernie late an LA times studios. Production.

football USC UCLA UCLA chip Kelly basketball Michigan clay Helton Brady McCulloch Pac Los Angeles LA times NBA t- Martin USC Jay Brady McCulloch t Martin US James McCulloch California
Episode 1009 - Bruce McCulloch

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

1:16:36 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 1009 - Bruce McCulloch

"Hey, folks, the presale for my newly announced tour dates is going on until ten pm tonight starting in August. I'll be going to Portland Oregon Dallas Austin, Houston, then couvert Seattle Chicago, Detroit, Minneapolis, Philadelphia, Washington. Dc Boston, Nashville, Atlanta, and San Francisco just go to w t Tf pod dot com slash tour and click on the dates to go to the venue websites. Then when you're at the site use the password BUSTER to get the presale tickets all other tickets go on sale Friday, April twelfth except for the Kennedy Center in DC that's on sale. April nineteenth again, that's w Tf pod dot com slash tour presale password is BUSTER. All right. Let's do the show. All right. Let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers what the fuck buddies? What the fuck stirs? What's happening this WTN f-? Did you know what you tuned in for you? Do you want double check? What did I do? Right. I was I was playing with the knob lemon hotel rooms still I've been away so long now I'm in Dublin Ireland right now, I'm sitting in Dublin in a hotel room. And there's a pastry problem. The I can't even they're just over there. I explain to you minute. Anyways. Bruce McCulloch of the kids in the hall is on the show today. And he is I think there's five of them, right? So I've this'll be four out of the five hour missing McKinney BRUCE'S here was great to talk to him. He sounds uniquely like himself. There's no doubt who I am talking to. He's been on the on the on the road with his one man show tales of bravery and stupidity. And that's. He's turning that into a book, and he's also I guess the executive producer and director of the upcoming sketch comedy show called tall, boys. So on Sunday. What I did was today's Thursday haven't talked to you since Monday. But I didn't tell you about Sunday. So it's Sunday was a big day. It was the day before I did Birmingham England, which was a good show is an interesting show. So on Sunday, I went down to the Hayward gallery, and that's down by Southbank centre. Why did the show? This is in London. I was going to go see the Diane RBIs show. They have Diane RBIs exhibit of early photographs of Diana RBIs. Some I've seen most of them. I hadn't it was sort of before she found her style in a way, you could see it coming, but she was still using thirty five millimeter camera before she went with the I think it's two and a half two and a half square. Maybe also blood type stuff for one of the other bigger cameras. And she did a lot of those shots that you know, that are hers that our signature hers. But this before was more of a. Ouija beside Robert Frankish Inca area photography though, you could see it coming. But it was a little more Zulu little different still starting to kind of peel back the layers of people who are painfully authentic slightly disturbing. But but anyway, so I went to see that. But there was another show along with it that kind of blew my mind, and it was one of those moments where you realize just how isolated or insulated or or or just detached we are in America. Maybe not everybody. Maybe I'm just talking about me. Maybe I can't generalize and say, it's the whole country about the broader palette, the broader spectrum of other cultures other problems other issues that happened internationally that are similar to some of the issues we have different, and it was kind of blowing my mind this. I'll Jiri and a French Algierian artist. I believe his name is cater oughta there. A lot of his work several different rooms different things. There was a room full of pictures of Algierian transgender prostitutes in Paris or another room that dealt primarily with a kind of documentary short documentary footage about people talking about lost limbs both from war and from other reasons, and then there was another room that was like structural sculpture that was sort of like housing projects as stuff based on the grid of housing project. And there was another room that had large shelves with primitive in some modern African masks with books in some of these masks had disfigured faces on them. And then there were photographs of World War Two soldiers whose faces were disfigured, and then repaired he sort of obsessed with the idea of repair, and what repair and plies it's all very deep and very complicated and provocative, but it was got me into that space where I. Bought the book, and I'm reading about it. And it's all about the imposed colonialism in about the struggle of of self in public housing and projects due to ethnic groups were marginalized and expected to integrate it was it was a lot. There was a lot of different rooms a lot of different angles in my brain was all blown out with the RBIs photographs. So I pretty wide open. And then downstairs at the BFI, the British Film Institute, they were running, you know, new prints of clockwork orange. So I went and saw that so needless to say, I was I was blasted apart. And it pretty dark way. I don't think about post colonialism. I you know, it was bad. But that's not a conversation that we really have in the states or maybe it's not a conversation. I have it just made me realize in that moment that we sort of get even if you're open minded, it's amazing. How narrow minded you get in terms of what is sort of moving through your brain. And how you see the world in in this just sort of kind of supported and kind of kind of blew out and opened up my own weird. You know, floating sense of, you know, what do I how do I know what I know? What do I know that is real what is truth? You know, what is happening is it over it was a dark day, and then I had dinner with your ghost land tham Ohs who went. To my show. You might have remembered I interviewed him. He's a director Greek director lives in London. And he directed the favourite and some of those kind of provocative and troubling movies that I enjoyed the lobster killing the sacred deer. Alps dog tooth? Yeah. The yeah. He's obviously very bright and very smart guy with a very, you know, real vision a slightly dark vision. So it was a full on dark vision day. But mean yoga's just had a nice chat about love life, food creativity. Aided a nice place the app desserts. That's where it started. Now that I'm thinking about it. I'm I'm on a roll man with the food. There's pastries over there out. Oh, explain it to you in a minute. I think I'm trying to say that I'm having a pretty good time in filling my brain up, and I'm loaded up, and I'm blowing it out and integrating it into what I'm thinking about allowed on stage. And it's good. It's proactive eating well, but I'm hating myself for it. But that's the that's that is. The wire I walk. That's the thin ice of me. I'm out there. I'm out there without a net eating things that can just completely drop the bottom out of my entire sense of self. But right live a little record store day's this Saturday, folks, April thirteenth, which means you can finally get a copy of in the garage. Well, I've music from W T F with Marc Maron. If you're not sure whether your local record store is participating to record store day dot com. You can search on the site using your address make sure you find out when the stores open because a lot of exclusive record store day album sell out real quick like right away. And again, a big thanks to record store day in Newbury comics for partnering with us on this. Thanks to ran foster a fingerprints music in Long Beach and artists Johnny Jones for their incredible work on the album cover and a big thanks to all the musicians for being on this album. Jay mascots, Melissa Ethridge e from ills Karen, kill Gareth, Ben Harper and Charlie. Musselwhite Nick Lowe Margot price Jason Ismal, Aimee Mann, and Dave Alvin everyone who worked on this agreed that it would be a charity record with the proceeds going to musicians on call a group that bring music to patients and healthcare facilities to add some joy to their day. Again, record store day. Twenty nine thousand nine is this Saturday, so go find participating stores at record store day dot com and get your copy of in the garage before it is gone. So the pastries maybe I should address that Email Mark my husband, and I are huge fans, and it has been great to watch your fame grow bigger every year. I just wanted to write and ask you how you have learned to mellow out over the years, you are constantly mentioning that you were jealous and angry and early career. I personally can tell this in the tone of your voice during your podcast and stand up over the years. Do you meditate do yoga how have you found your personal inner peace? This is a constant battle for myself. And I'm looking for some guidance big fan Mei Mei there there is nothing going on inside of me that resembles inner peace. First of all second of all the jealousy and anger has been tempered. I still find it comes up in moments. It doesn't need to come up. But it does the anger thing is there. But it's getting better. A couple of things have happened. I found some success in my life, which kind of filled the certain voice. Loyd in that, you know, I worked my entire life to to achieve something. And I seem to have achieved a lot of the things I I wanted to achieve an image. And I am achieving them still. So that that helps a lot I used to do yoga. I don't I exercise a lot except right now because I'm on the road and I've chosen to eat instead of exercise. I don't meditate I've tried I find it irritating. But a lot of it has to do with just knowing what's real. And what isn't which is the big question? You know, what are you reacting to what you making? How you making yourself? Crazy is it real? Or is it something your brain is doing to you? Usually for me. It was something my brain is doing to me. And that I think is probably the same for a lot of people. The truth is is that if you look around in make little gratitude list, what is going. Well, what are you thankful for? You know, did you have a nice breakfast is how's your pets is your partner or a nice person are some of those things you can check those off and maybe find a little balance. But some kind of self acceptance, I think is necessary. It's a tall order, especially if your brain is projecting garbage all the time. But. Sometimes you can turn that off that those are the times that are enjoyable. I hope that helps thanks for writing in. I don't know. I don't know. There's pastries over there of staying at this hotel. All right. I'm in Dublin I'm excited to be here. I get here, and I walk into my room and there's a tray of four like fancy kind of like pastry art pastry. Little pieces of stuff cookies stuff with cream stuff with the already chocolate on top things that looked too pretty to eat. And it just sort of like what the fuck I can't just do this. There's four of them and I felt bad because I want insult the pastry. Chef I get really weird about throwing food away. When I really think about how much food gets thrown in the garbage. And I think will you can grow more stuff that grows, and I guess you can make more meat, but that's part of the problem. How many fish are there left? How can we throw this Fisher wet? It doesn't matter that sometimes where my brain goes pastries are a little different. But I did. Feel bad. But I was like went downstairs, and like you gotta get those Adami room because I can't do that right now and go too far into it. I didn't spin out in front of the woman at the front desk. I really I don't know what you're trying to do to me. I mean, come on fuck that they looked so good. I can't do it. Because then it'll just be a spiral of of darkness. It was a pretty little sweet spiral of darkness available to me. This goes back to to what may just wrote. Try not to do those things that will throw you in days into a spiral of darkness and then come back to my room, and there's not one tray of pastry. Will patriot cookie things there's two and they gave me a mistake one. There was a card to me thanks for being at the hotel. And then there was a card to Mr. Jackson, and it was an on it. They squirted in chocolate happy tenths day. That's not me. I don't even know if this is real again in another hotel am I in the shining. Have I been here ten times? Should I eat both those? Trays of pastries. There's eight of them just sitting over there. And if I don't get him the fuck out of my room gonna eat them all really fast, and then sit there in a sugar coma and wonder why about everything not gonna do it? Anyway, we're sponsored today by Lisa and Lisa knows how important rest is to a better life. Lisa is the foundation of a healthier happier. You that's because all these products have been thoughtfully designed to go beyond creating a comfortable bed and to transform your bedroom into a sanctuary. You want to spend time in Lisa's most advanced luxury hybrid mattress has made with premium foams and springs for enhanced pressure relief with edge to edge support. The superior is thoughtfully designed to give you the best of both worlds in home delivery and set up his vailable as well as financing, and we is more than mattresses. 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There's a around thing with some cream on it than a square thing with several layers in a couple of pretty candies on it. And then there's a brownie floating. What looks like a piece of peanut brittle with some other group on the top. And then there's just a little piece of chocolate. Now, knowing me if I leave them there long enough, I'll be like I'm just going to eat the little piece of chocolate and then there's a bowl of chocolate. What the fuck is with this chocolate. There's a piece of chocolate on the bed. Maybe I'm not cut out for this nice hotel shit. I'm having a good time dimension that can you hear it in my voice. Bruce McCulloch the fourth kid in the hall that I've talked to his one man show tales of bravery and stupidity. He towards with that. So so becoming a book, and he's also the executive producer director of the upcoming sketch comedy show called tall boys is me talking to Bruce McCulloch. Are you trying to intimidate me with your expensive guitars? No, I mean. Well, yeah. No not. Gibson? I got for free, right? Yeah. So like, I'm not I'm not trying to intimidate you people. Just give you Qatar is right. I work it. Yeah. I mean, I'm not a musician. So in order for me to get a free Qatar from Gibson. I've got a really jump through some who. Yeah. I had to do something, right? Yeah. See I still get caps. That's where I'm at caps. Yeah. Like a Tuque. As project hand or something on it. A water bottle. Yeah. Yeah. Water bottle. So we're Where'd you dry? D my close to you. I mean, are we I was in. Laurel canyon is that where you live. No, I actually live in Toronto. And I stayed late. Really come to this to come. See you. That's nice 'cause you're an influence her. It might still. Yeah. Many platforms, which is a funny word. I think I have I have one primary platform. It's podcasting. I I can't you know, about to I'm trying to get off the platforms. Right. Are you? I'm just on Twitter. I can't take it anymore. Yeah. Well, it's everyone went through a thing. I think when he was first elected where they are so sad. But I think people are funny again. Now why it's weird because that's what happened. I he was elected. We're not mentioning him the monster. When the monsoon though in the golden shows up. Yeah. Everyone was like it's over. But I kinda stuck to it. I stopped tweeting anything funny or clever. Right. Arguably ever? But I mean when when Trump took office, I was like I'm out and just never really went back. Yeah. Because then it just seemed like this. I don't know. Do you ever look at Twitter and just see a just a lot of needy people? People. We know even. Yeah. All of us needy children who had bad childhoods. It's true right there. We are. Yeah. Just every ten minutes. I go there. He is again. Yeah. Some to many. Yeah. And of course, I have friends who this is the good life. Really? Yeah. What do you mean? Like, oh, here's me in Paris. Are they do that a little bit of that? Is that Instagram more? I guess I'm not on Instagram, but they do it on Twitter. Yeah. So you've got some of those friends who are like how you doing? It's like shut up. I'm living. My best light at trader Joe's. They've tried to jobs in Toronto. They do not. I think I remembered that like once you get hooked to trader Joe's you go somewhere else. You know? How do you not have it? Yeah. Where's trader Joe's? Yeah. And then you realize like they're not that. Great. Yeah. Is it? I don't know. It's like you. And you're asking us like it's fat knol or something. We are. Hey, man. We're straight. Jim you want that consistency. You wanna be able to show them like it's just like ours. They have the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I want the six dollar rose yet. So all right. So you live in Toronto. I just I've been in. I had been in LA for almost twenty years, and I just moved back. It's sounds like story yet. So very story. No, I always sort of promise myself family that I be backed by the time my daughter was in high school, which was this year. So she started high school this year. Yeah. I, you know, but don't you? Aren't you relieved that you have Candida? I I am. Yeah. And I think I feel sort of bad that I'm leaving leaving the shit show because there's so many sad people here, and it's not great time to show you were directing. Oh. Excellent out. I'm not that show. Now, the shit show true. But but you're sad a little bit. Well, no, I didn't. I don't want to have. I don't want people to think I've left because of Trump, right? I it was just time of the season as we like to know. I mean, I think if you would have left because Trump you sort of you're on the other side of the arc here. You would have got out two years ago and said fuck this. Yeah. But did you become a citizen here? How does that work? I have two passports in in my expensive lapel, well my jacket. What does it take because initially when when he took office, I was very panicked that might people then be unto Jews? We're going to be corralled up. And I was fine. Now, it's it's the darker skinned PPM. Well, that was my my girlfriend's argument. It was like, I don't think your first on the list. I know, but we're on we're, you know, you've got four down probably, but but that's insensitive, but I did call an immigration lawyer in in Canada did a little research, and it was her English was choppy and French and I didn't quite understand. It seemed like a big ordeal. Right. Was it a big ordeal? You just pay a guy you just gotta know guy pay guy really to to be a citizen here has a Canadian yet. But I'd had h ones or whatever it was through my many Harir. Yeah. Why I remember like I was I guess I was a comedy central. I mean, it was sort of after the kids in the hall kind of early ran its course. But we ran them constantly the the early comedy central right like late eighties. Yeah. But you didn't you didn't grow up in Toronto. I grew up in Calgary in a little it was backwards. Then you would be chased by a truck called a fag. If you were wearing bowling shoes or nurses, shoes as I was is that what you were nurses shoes. Scanners shoes in like three neck ties and a piece of rope. Pulling my pants up, you know, the the usual stuff, Mark. Yeah. Then you're sixteen sixteen in the eighties back. That's exactly it's very specific. Because I was looking through stuff about you. And we're you know, you're a couple years older than me. But it is that weird time of theirs that window of of how we all defined ourselves as individuals back. Then. Very specific yet sort of punk rock easy. New wavy without question, bowling shirts. Boeing shoes work closed yet. Not working. Yeah. Yeah. And especially me, I mean and Calgary like I luckily, I found about six friends who were into T Rex or whatever I was into. But that was all I cared about. Really the T. Rex was the thing. We'll just all of it. I know it went from it went from deep purple to. Oh, yeah. Although that well, that's the thing that I started to notice about like even the music comedy records you did. And some of the other stuff was that. We were the generation that kinda straddled that kind of early seventies rock and this other thing. Yeah. So we had it around us. It was so important. I remember I used when I stand up I'd come out till less for life. Right. And I think I was so cool. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I bomb the music is going to be fun. And then I do not like being brought out to music even now, right? I'm like that you why would you do that? It's just like it. Marc maron. Now, how is that never song that has anything to do with you? You know, some rap song. I don't even know the name of yet. But but when you're a kid though, because there was definitely a difference between like rock guys. And and the art guys, right? And and you you landed firmly in the art camp, or you I was all of that. And I was I was an angry young, man. I thought a lot. I drank a lot you're fighter. Oh, yeah. Fought. Really? I mostly would get beat up. But you'd go out and fight seed booze it up and go beat up who or the Cowboys would come get us. That's the thing. I don't I I didn't learn that 'til later in life about the Calgary. Cowboys man. They would get you. Yeah. And we'd go with a guy from Stelco steel he'd wouldn't even wash its face after a shift and say who do you want me to take and we point we'd point gourd into some direction, and he take out about three guys. And then one little guide come coming the fucking shit out of me. So that was just it you drink and you go find Cowboys to fight. Yeah. Well, no, they would find you. Because we were because we were wearing what they were wearing. But, but I don't know if a lot of people understand that Calgary has this culture because it's oil, right? Yeah. And they just sort of copy, Texas. How does it just recreate it? So well, it is it is sort of like that it is sort of like Dallas or one of those places where you know. And it's it's king the oil is king. Yeah. Yeah. Is it still? Yeah. But there's a great arts community there. Now that was sort of started around, you know, that we were there and some great theater and all kinds of stuff. So when you're okay. So you're growing up in Calgary you and your six friends, and he means to to. But a large one named Gord. Yeah. The missile. And are you doing like how many siblings you got? I have an older sister. And she alright. Yeah. She's okay. She's she's got a great spirit. She I always say, she's my younger sister, even though she's older. Because why I don't know as you talk funny and stuff like I don't know what she's the role model for many feminine characters. I do Kathy was one of our characters which is kind of my sister who is like bad things are always happening to her. But she's still got a great little spirit. Oh, that's okay. I'm in jail in English and Albert. You know? Did you guys talk about like have serious discussions about who played the best woman? I'm no we we left that for other people. I'm where does it land usually? Well, I think it's Dave. I have pretty good settle eggs. Yeah. I'm Scott can't believe that he's considered the worst looking woman, very handsome, man. Of course. But yeah. And Mark Mark had a very specific woman. He did. Yeah. So when you're growing up there in Calgary with the Cowboys in two friends and big Gord. What way you're just like what changes were you heading down a bad path? Did you feel like you're you're going to be lost? If you didn't find the funny. Yeah. I didn't. I didn't know what I was going to do. And I was I was kind of a loser. And I'm on my eighteenth birthday. I had to think called tequila fast at my house and during the two guys. Well, actually, we invite over some more friends, and my mom came in and had a heart attack when she saw the house and from there on for about a year. I just do like any job because my head no money. And I'd be like, you know, she freaked out aiming houses. Yeah. She had hard Jack. She's got a real hard literal attack. No eighteenth birthday. And all right. Happy birthday. She's still alive believe it or not a few more. She's she's eighty now she's got a few Adam, you know, anchor hearts a lump of butter, but she's eighty eighty so I haven't time I talked say mom, I can't fucking believe you're still alive. What did she say? Yeah. Me neither. What about your long-dead? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's a L S. It's a bad one that takes guy who likes to talk. And then he couldn't talk all very sad. He his clipboard. He'd right. Oh to joke. Market would drive me. Crazy right outta joke which five minutes. It's like dad. You don't need to write out a joke that takes five minutes. Yes. Called timing. Dan. Say that to them or guy enough you knew the joke. But how how do we even that have that was about fifteen years ago? Oh, yeah. And it took a long time. Yeah. It oh. And not so long a long time. But you were able to communicate by writing on P. He'd would right then he would write a OS means you still have your brain. But your body fails you. Yeah. And then either either affects affects your voice or something else. There's two there's two forms of it. And he has his voice and he loved to talk. Right. He he'd wake up in the morning, go. I'm lonely. Let's talk. What are we talking about depression empire? Like anything was of interest to him. But it would start with them lonely. Yeah. I'm lonely. It's like six morning and just smell the cigarettes from downstairs. So that happened your whole life. Where was your mom? Well, they broke up when I was young. And then I then I had to step mom who died of the drink on. My dad was a very serious boozer really really good at it. Yeah. And but then went to a for many years last year. So he died sober. Yep. Wow. Yeah. Now when you were in high school did that was that a transfer to you where you are you drank, but daddy drank rise. So I was going to drink rice who you can calls it, right? From the eighteen hundred Ryan ginger that was daddy's dream. Yeah. Ryan ginger now rise just whiskey right type of whiskey. What's a brand of rye? Well, Hudson's bay they because my mom had worked at Hudson's bay. So she she drank the ri- and in plastic Cup. What's Hudson's bay? It's Hudson's bay company. Yeah. That took all the land from the first nations people and other Canadian thing. Yeah. I'm sorry. Well, you don't look so surprised I'm a little doesn't care about the first nations. People guys you heard it here. And Hudson's bay. What what kind of company was it what they make? They will they make every department store, but they famously took all the pelts from the first nations people or give and give them blankets and my dad fame. But that's where it started. Yeah. My dad famously got up one of their functions. My mom worked there and gave a toast to Hudson's bay who'd been who'd been fucking the first nations people fucking them over and everyone what what is he doing? But that's the kind of it was a protest message. Yes. Of course. Yeah. It was a. Stay right. So that's well. No. But that's where you got your sense of humor. Like a couple of drinks. It's just gonna stick into the man, of course, at his wife's function, actually. No, we never stopped hearing about that one. And that was the end of them. They just kept going. Yeah. Yeah. That was the step mom. Yeah. Those are the years of it was step. Mom. Yeah. That was the stepmom. Oh, so they were both drinking the ri-. Yeah. Did you live with them for a while? And then I left. Yeah. It was pretty grim. Yeah. And they had a dog that would just being key that would just attack you if you left the house, it was fucking crazy only crazy with these people have to throw ball like he'd go for it. And then you run out before you got your family. So that sounds pretty chaotic very chaotic and your mom didn't remarry. She had a bunch of suitors lovers things. Like that in and out of the house yet. This is your new dead. Oh, maybe now, no doubt. Just some guy. That's got guys named like villi and stuff like Billy. Where did you pick up a guy named villi? I've never heard that one. But you seem to so I I mean, I guess is. What built you this is the this is the shame that'll chew. Yeah. And I it's so funny when I see like I'm worked with the comedy troupe now, and they're they're they've had sort of nice lives. And it's like, how do you do it? How are you funny? Like for us, obviously, it's in the hall. It's all all dysfunction. I don't like I find myself asking that to like is like there. There was a point where I think we all sort of celebrated the fact that we'd gone through some shit. Yeah. That was cultural, and it wa-, you know, the time was right for it. I mean, there was like new things happening or whatever. But it seemed like I sort of I think I look back at my life. And I'm like, I've had many lives in went through some shit, and it sort of define me. And then when I see these younger people there, there's sort of well adjusted they they seem to function they have they have they have a plan, right? That kind of stuff and they're good. And I'm like, maybe we didn't need it. I mean, maybe like ROY. Romanticizing that stuff was just bullshit. Oh, it is bullshit. And I think you know, it's like there's so much kindness. Since a lot of young people. I don't know what to do with that. I don't believe it at first writing. I well, I don't believe it at first, but it's actually real. I know there's real sincere kind of like they're well adjusted. Yeah. And we're old white fuckers. We have to realize the world has actually changed. No. That's I think that's true. Yeah. It has changed with is at diminish us entirely. Or can we still somehow like secretly be proud of of of our fuck up nece? Oh without question. I mean, we've been grandfathered in right? Where like I think now like anybody who's my age. I won't say are age because I'm a little bit old fifty seven. I'm fifty five. Yeah. Is we're like the blues now, we're just still out there, man. Like, that's how I feel right? I'm I'm BB king on on Tuesday night. I saw I remember I saw Mavis Staples a few years ago and one of the greatest cities in and she's and then she gave one of the greatest shows, and then she began their CDs for sale out front like, yeah, you're seventy five and you're. Still doing it. But will Mavis go. Yeah. I there's the goal Mavis go part of that. But you know, somebody who who sees it. There's two ways that like why does she have do that still? Right. You know? But it's what she does. I always wondered about certain people. It's like do you need to do this? It's like Bob Dylan is probably out there singing at a state fair right now. And there's part of me that sort of like what he can't need to do. I know it's like, my my friend, Jeff garland who doing stand up and say, you're dropping those area. Go HFA walks in. He's doing stand up at eleven at night. What do you got to shows on the air? What do you what do you need to do? Stand eleven at night for not only does he need to do it. But he he's very proud of the fact that he doesn't ride any stand up in never prepares to do stand up, and then gets up there and kind of like rambles through something. Yeah. It's it's the ramble acting. I don't prepare for any of it. He's very proud of that. And there are nights where I watch him. And I'm like, maybe you should you know. Get write something down. Get mad at me for saying this beautiful. So okay. So there you are. You're you can't go home. You know, you're never you're growing up. And there's just there's there's ri- Ryan ginger in one house and Vilis in the other house. Yeah. It'd be a new guy yet. So your mom worked at Hudson Bay would the dad do he was a salesman. He was a traveling salesman for real when yet when the that existed. And then he sold furniture, by the way, he had a couple of trunks stuff that he'd thrown the trunk and yet he actually had sample cases old school. That's why anything he was just a he sold like, greeting cards and. Different kinds of animal products like to help clean things and stuff was pretty national Cam. Search he worked for it was pretty sad stuff. But because he was a boozer. He would go on the road. Sure. Work two days, and then get lost for three, you know. And that's what I think all those guys all these traveling salesmen were boozers. Well, yeah. Well, it's it's also I- comics, you know, not drink. Well, but stand up comics, you go out, you do your different town from Wednesday to Sunday and one of those guys I got him about about traveling salesman where we're definitely, you know, running from tax payments alimony payments families children like it was their own space and just kind of hole up in a hotel room. And yeah, but also you have twenty three hours in a day. You know? So what else are you going to do? That's right. I mean minds drink for four and then sleep for twelve. And then and then watched the first forty eight on a and E because it's the only thing so so really he'd go on benders. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. But you got along with them the whole time. Well, he was a. Violent, man. He was fun though. Like, he was he was all all things it could be like he'd slap you for doing something wrong. Or you say, hey, let's order Chinese food. And you know, it could be anything. Those are the two off. Yeah. Pretty much Chinese food or those are the two tone. Yeah. You get popped or like. Yeah. What are we going to do? Let's talk about Jan. So we've. I don't know if he would say beat me up. He would slap me right or he would slap my sister. You know, it was very very chaotic. But but did so in in like could in light of that. I find that people who have that kind of upbringing where you just never know what you're walking into or what's going to happen. You know, you go to directions, you either become that or you become these sort of light controlled kind of like, you know, like, let's just trying to make it to safe as possible for everybody. I don't know if I'm that. I'm I Ali. I don't know. I don't feel like I wear that. No. I don't feel that way. But you seem like you seem like. Like, you seem stable, you know, maybe a little dark but save and I feel I feel with with age I've gotten more stable and more. I think I was like kind of young prick. Yeah. But I feel now that I'm a evolved into someone. I'm proud of. Right. Isn't it weird? How you soften? And there's nothing you can do about it. And then every once in a while the old prick comes out, and you're like neither put a stop to that. Yeah. It does. I can't don't cable yell anymore. You can't yell at people anymore. You can't throw a coffee mug at assist anymore, man. Things at chain. Yeah. Can't even throw hot coffee anymore in the world coming. You're a yeller. Yeah. Or it's like mostly about the show or my comedy because everything is doing was so important and everyone had to understand, you know. You know, just get onto my way get out of the little man's way. He will he will eat your throat geniuses in the room. Yeah. And I we I remember we do the tapings and Kevin and Dave with celebrate. Because they were so happy after scene and I would go up run upstairs. And and look at the feet and make sure we didn't hiccups. Oh, you're that's the control the right, right? Yeah. The angry controlling guy. Yeah. I guess. All right. So when where did you first start engaging with the stage? I went to loose moose theatre. And I, you know, I agree. Yeah. In calgary. And I've been kind of a punk, and certainly a how punky we're gonna banned at that. All my friends in bands. I was never gonna be like hardcore kind of stuff or or the husker du and all that would come and play the Calgary and all the time or anything like that. But then I found comedy. And I and it was like, I found my religion reeling. Went to see improv comedy. I was you know, it was almost sexually attracted do. You. Remember to your yet, actually almost on the almost he said. Yeah. But you like who do you? Remember who it was who who like that? You saw that was like there's no well, no it. Yeah. The Tino brothers. Oh, great. Yeah. Rockstars really. Then you'd see them in a restaurant after wow, they eating same restaurants as us. Really? That's it was. Yeah. Franken Tony Tino. They were improv guy. Yeah. And they're still doing it. And. Yeah. And it's it was amazing. They were like, I couldn't believe how cool that whole thing was what was the structure. It was like a like how like how did it go? Like what year we talking like eighty two eighty three? Yeah. Eighty three and it would be Stater sports his competitive. Okay. And you get thrown off the stage and all that. Right. Right. Oh, but it was. So it was competitive. And I thought it was beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It is kind of amazing. It is amazing. Yeah. And then when you see them do the same thing the third show like, oh, well, well, I think it's a really great art form for a little bit. When you're starting your your world. Right. I like, I think that's true. And I think that's one of the things I always envied about you, fellas. And I imagine you, you know, you find kindred spirit and the people you're working with now. What's the new show called tall boys at the name of the sketch guy? Yeah. That's the thing. I'm doing for CBC right now. And that those that's a younger crew, it is a younger. Crew and they're excellent. And you're the executive producer rector. Yeah. And they come to you like a father figure and say like we can't resolve this sketch. Can you help us, and he say make make that voice funnier? Yeah. Just or just get a better ending. They like get what we call an idea for an idea. Yeah. But but but what I was saying was that there's? There's something about improv where you Ike you going into it. If that's your thing. You're like you're gonna be working with other people, and there's an on at least that has to be some basic respect to for other folks and working on samba. Whereas when you're standing up, your donation anybody. Yeah, I'm going up there alone. There are different they're different. And they really are. And they're not. I mean now, they're we're all kind. But I don't think when you're young is kind as improvisers are. No because you just like you just build your own little wall. And you you got your own little world, and you condescend to everybody in a way. Oh, yeah. And it's like look out old man watch what I'm going to do, you know? I can bomb of coming in. So so once he saw those guys you got involved with improv sports yet right away. Yeah. And and then stop dressing creatively because I didn't need to anymore and just found I think. Yeah. Found that transitions. Like, I don't need these. I didn't even know. I didn't even notice I was doing it. And then I just start where army pants around for two years because you've found another way to define yourself. That was more honest. Yeah. You didn't have to pretend. Yeah. It was an met Mark. And all that. And it was like, oh my God you met Mark in Calgary. Was he? Was he from there? No. He was there. I think the university and he worked for dial a bottle. Is that where you find you fall, you take booze to boozer dial bottle to come out of real thing. Don't act like you don't know what style of on come on. Mark Canadians are ahead of us in so many ways, I LA bottle. But it was that honest that was shameless. Like, we know we don't want you to drive you probably well into it. Yeah. You might only be seventeen but we'll bring you one. Yeah. He's the only I guess after you. He's the only one that. I haven't talked to on the Mike dark. Oh, I usually I'm the last really people always collect all like, polka mints. It's like you're the last one I've met. Everyone says I know day I went out with Dave now everyone knows day to see him around a last yet. And then here's me, it's like you can't Kevin. There was the Kevin McDonald debacle. Did you hear about that? Which I had the wrong. Kevin mcdonald? Oh, you didn't who was the wrong. Oh, the filmed or a film director. I was expecting. It was a horrendous day in the way that like I was expecting Kevin. You're right. Having to show up. And then this guy shows up who I didn't know at all what the nothing nice scramble out to the garage. Do quick bit research. That's hilarious. And you did that when I arrived. Yeah. I did. Because I thought the other Bruce McCulloch via the guy who works at the Lowes hardware. Yeah. Hey, do you know that Scott Thomsen and carrot top or the same? I do that. You know, there was a period there right occasionally get texts from both of them right because I knew carrot top. Because I interviewed him, and he would always send these really horrendous. Pornographic pictures like once a year, and I'd be like Scott Thompson kids in the hall sending it wouldn't be unusual for him to. Yeah. But I I didn't expect him to and it wasn't him. Yeah. It was Scott. Thompson was that the bane of anyone's existence that had the same. No, no, not at all. I thought it was funny. So Mark McKinney. And you're hanging out. Here's the weird thing about all. He is. Yeah. Yeah. Y'all got this perverse darkness somewhere working? Yeah. Real even the nice ones like, Dave. Yeah. It's either. Nice one is Kevin ROY the nice one Kevin's nice. But you know, we always say he's the he's the worst way because it's like. He says well when you're out of my sight, I'll forget you immediately like oh. Oh, I'm the worst. He's sort of right there. The nice wants him him, and Dave the kind ones. Yeah. And Dave is a very kind man as well. Yeah. Mark seems will menacing. No. He's kind of we've all become kind. But he you know, he Canadian so it's gonna built in a little bit. But he can drive Mark and drive. You crazy. He'll like change if you interviewing him he would change the time seven times, and then it would change back to the original time. What do you mean time just activity like he's I need more information? Right. You know? I just need just a guy who needs more information. He he dodges. And I think I grew up in a way in in reaction him. So I was like, no we're going. We're going to Toronto we're going to New York we're going on. And he was like. Can we think about it a couple more years? So. So. I knew his brother, Nick. Yeah. How's that guy doing? He's pretty good. He was gonna hey was going to a documentary on the hall haynick. Where's our documentary? Bhopal myers. Just wrote a book on your right? Yeah. He did. And did did you like the book? I did not read it because that's the way. I am. Right. That's how I'm weird that way. Have you talked to you? Oh, yeah. Very thorough. Very good guy. He's a friend of ours. As a good guy, and he's very good. Dia people seem to quite like the book, and they like it for the things you've probably been talking to me about which is that it has some relationship to like are weird, Pat like how we were formed which I am always inch. You're in good company. I mean, he's written a couple books, but it's like you and Todd Rundgren. Yeah. Yeah. And I barely understand Todd Rundgren. No, I yeah. Humans afar, they're just in an hawk win. They're all just this weird. Worldly, they are man. I didn't come to hawk and even know Huck went existed till like eight years ago. Wow. Where we're and you should should call me up. I would've told you. Yeah. Haukeland exists it how how'd you get this number? There's ninety records. Yeah. Here's. With a thirteen. Here's the two with liming on them go there and see how it spreads out. But they're one of those bands where it's like they're still going, and there's white what one member left and that kind of thing. Yeah. I think he's the original Rhody. The only original member yet Rhody, the sort of the the name on the bass drum right here. So you and Mark are where so you you're there in Calgary. But he he receives sort of punky too. Or was he an oddball? Then it was more an oddball. I think tall really know what he was into like weird sweaters. He was a theater guy. Right marks taking the acting. He says he's not going to be funny. But he just got he did. Yeah. He's so I ki- he'd worked primarily as an actor. Yeah. Store now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so what do you guys? Do you guys do a team thing? How does it start we start? And there was other people involved. We started doing think late night comedy, which was after Calgary after theater sports. We had a few things naked for Jesus or whatever. And like just naked for Jesus. Yeah. That was just one of my scenes, but we would we would just do them in the for the audience after theater sports. And then people started coming just for our show. And we we were it was it was odd that had happened to us. We were successful very quickly, which to you. Well, there was a few. Other guys call late night comedy. So there's about five of us. What happened to those guys? They're around norm. Hiscock who worked on kind of all kind. You know, he he's works on Brooklyn nine nine a bunch of shows. And there's a few other guys who I nineteen years old. Yeah. Nineteen twenty. Yup. And and like, it's so Hiscock is here. Yup. And yeah, the other guys, you know, they're around frankens work in Canada and Gary Campbell works in Canada. And it's weird Canada. Like, if you just hang out, and you you stay relatively funny. You get a job. Yeah. Well, I yeah. For a while. I was in CBC. I said, well, I'm back. What are you gonna do something? I was a kid in the hall. I'm a legend. Yes. So so one do you hit the wall and Calgary where you realize it's not going to happen here. It did happen there. We are selling out. And I said, oh, it's time to go to Toronto. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause I wanted to was the goal. Yeah. Well, I want to go there because the damned played there as well. You know, but it was like no we have to go to Toronto. But never you like it's funny because that's reality when you're Canadian you don't think like we got to go to Hollywood. You gotta go to Toronto never even crossed my mind. Right. Yeah. I just got to go to Toronto because it was the coolest city, my older friends were out there already. So you Mark I picture you load up a car. I actually went up first, and he told me to find him a an apartment with a fireplace that cost two hundred dollars a month. That's that's how Mark McKinney can drive. You crazy. Did you do like and find him one? Yeah. I got a friend coming department with a fireplace for two hundred dollars a month. What is this Europe? And so all right. So you go alone and scope out the scene. Yeah. And we started, you know, there is there a second city. And there is yet young STAN. And we start doing our own thing. And we were very unsuccessful for very long you and Mark. Yeah. And other other people, and then that's we met. Kevin Dave there started doing shows with them. Yeah. I think I picked up some of the history of the kids, but I, you know, from whoever I talked to probably Scott and Dave, right? But not but not you in marks history. That's interesting. Yeah. So when Mark shows up you're ready in with the guys. Yeah. Yeah. And Mark, you know, Mark, and I work together. All the time. Like, we love to be together on stage it formed from way back. Yeah. And so when it finally took shape, where would you where you guys working where was the theater, where's the one that that, you know, we're in the we went to the Rivoli which was like an alternative rock club in Queen Street west. It was the cool cool play, and we didn't do well for very long period of time. And then the kids. Yeah. And then eventually we originally. Twelve you know, there was like five other guys, and they sort of went and got jobs, and you know, they weren't they were interesting and entertainment. Yeah. No. They did. They did other things enough of us. Right. Yeah. And and then you took off we ultimately just took off. But I mean everyone's history. It's like, you know. Oh it. Oh, he'd lemon Lorne Michaels found them like it took forever. It felt like it took forever. You know, as young man, it takes, you know, your your time. So important in six months, you know, now, it's like six months. Oh, I don't know. I did a pilot. Oh, it's not going. Okay. I'll see you again next year. Got my money for a year. That's right. It's where do you still think that way when you get in this business? It's sort of like how much how long is this money. Yeah. I know. And there's never a point where you're like good. I'm good. I'm. Good. I'm coast. I'm done. Yeah. So okay. So eventually way I'm you don't have to weaken. We're not too fast forward. But you you did we're in Michael's did find you you produced a show. And then it didn't did it become a hit here immediately. I think it just you know, kind of central just starting then. Right. And while we're on HBO initially. But I think repetition helped us I think they just played it all the time. When I was there like what year we talking because I I hosted short attention span theater in ninety two. Right. And they were all done by them. Because I know that Nick McKinney had his sketch show on right? What was that a lot fifty seven? What was what was his call vacant lot? Yeah. They can lot. Yeah. So that was in production. I think when I was there. So you guys were kind of the old win or at? Yeah. We were done you're done or out of there. So who are you dealing with over there initially, so Lauren did it for HBO? And you did how many on HBO we? Well. We did. I think two seasons. I mean, we did five seasons in total. But in both ways. Yeah. But it took forever because we wrote most the stuff. So our seasons would be like fourteen fifteen months long. Yeah. But we have to Mark was the only guy wanted to go on real. Yeah. Anyone that's why he went to Saturday Night Live sketch comedy. But that was after the movie debacle. Yeah. Kind of at the sort of at the same time. Yeah. So like what happened with that? With brain candy. Yeah. Well, you guys have always been a cult following in the there's like definitely kids in the hall fanatics and people who love you forever. I imagine. Now like, you have you know, boys and girls who are in their fifties. Right. Who are still kind of dressing like they're in their thirties. Coming after you go by. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Gospels with daddy issues. But now, they're fifty. Yeah. Yeah. But daddy issues don't go away. Mark don't you know, are you know, they just turned into other things usually it's food or drinking. You are collecting weird doll. Yeah. You like cats, but but like what like the movie in retrospect, what happened with it? Because I know there there was the cancer boy debacle. Yeah. Where I played cancer. Boy, and I have to talk I had to talk the guy who had financed the movie which wasn't paramount with somebody else into keeping cancer boy, and I talked to him for about two hours. And then I started to cry. And I said this important to me because my mom died of cancer that, you know, can we just talked about because my because my job was to get cancer ROY in the movie. So I did whatever it took. But you because it was just a fight to be fought. Or you believed in it. So my worst I feel like I was sent by the troop to do it. And I was the guy. I'm the pew. So everyone was on board. We lose cancer. Boy. Yeah. But it was and then Lawrence said will you just lost the war because they're pulling all the ad money. So Lawrence produced a movie. Yeah. So now what like, let's talk. Because I've had those kind of things where you're like, I'm doing something. You knew the thing worked had you done it live. We didn't know it worked. No. We haven't done. We had done it in the show, and it was called. They wouldn't call. Let us call them cancer. Boy on CBC we had to call him dying kid. Would you actually worse cancer? You can buy you might. Yes, you're not dying kid. Yeah. So we, but we just we were fighting for our thing. You know it. It's so funny. Isn't it? When you look back on it out of all the things you have out of all the characters you all did you're gonna put it on the line for cancer. Boy. Yeah. And it was important. It was really important because I'm a punk. And I like that was like, and I took so much from the troop in a certain way. Like, I wouldn't let anybody dress me. So I wouldn't we weren't weren't on the cover of G Q because I wouldn't let I wouldn't wear a suit wasn't one that I brought from thrift shop understand that. And it was like I had to be that way. And it was like, wow. You weren't a lot of fun. I had by had very strict punk rules. So I often tick. Yeah. And I was you know, if I really knew myself, I could've probably just worn a suit and then on G Q, let the other guys feel wanted to do. They all get dressed th they'll let them get dressed. No. It was you know, you can't do it. If you're not doing it over really apricot isn't wearing a suit. So we can't we all gotta wear clothes or we're not gonna know. There's no G Q cover. Thanks Bruce walking nother one, but he stood together. Yeah. We did. Yeah. I think not always like, oh my God. He goes on and on what are they going on about him? And Mark what do they go? I don't know. Somebody opinion put it up with it. Yeah. And that's what kind of eventually broke you. I don't know if it broke us. I think you know, we love each other. We're kind to each other. I think we just you just get worn out like bands get worn out. Sure. Okay. So the cancer boy think so you go to Matt's for that thing. Yep. And they keep it in the movie, and you did that with the with the producer of the film. And then paramount was like, no, we're well, whoever. Yeah. Yeah. We're not doing so. And learn says. Yeah. Yeah. We sort of lost the war. We wanted about you know, but behind cancer. Boy, I think he he was he was wonderful actually in letting us do what we were going to do. Yeah. And so he wouldn't I don't think he would he would go pull pull cancer from fucking film. It's so obvious like I think he probably wanted to say that. But he really was wonderful in letting us have our own own way. He trusted us somehow. And it's like, oh, it was created a f- up. Do you have any regrets about cancer? Boy, I I'm not really. Yeah. I I'd want both things I wish and I honestly don't think the film would have been much more successful. Even if we had more ad money. It's such a weird little piece. Yeah. You know? And it was more fraught with what we were going through. So it was a very kind of a sad movie in some ways, you know? And I think that's what it felt like it wasn't you? You couldn't hide this ad. No. I think you're able to for for your entire career is kind of like what's the word out chemically, take darkness and make it into flour? And now the dark. Was pervasive. No, it was weeds now. Yeah. I remember saying him Kevin. Even if this film makes two hundred million dollars won't be worth it. You know, as as they had we had a call sheet that said all calls add seven hours. So like, I've never seen a call. She'd like really because it was just like couldn't really. Yeah. Like you couldn't land on something. Well, no, no. We were just in so many characters and they're scrubbing your face in the middle of the night, and you had to go from Alice to grieve, oh, and you're just exhausted exhausted. And okay. So that so after that, you all kind of like you. There was no volatility that I mean, there was no bad blood. No. I think we're tired of each other. And then when we finally came back at two thousand in two thousand we did some live shows. Yeah. It was like, I guess we'll do them. Yeah. And it was sort of begrudging. And then it was like. Wow. People on we sold well and fast, and we're happy to see. And it was it's actually more interesting. Because like now, we don't sell like that. And it's like we got to try to sell tickets, Milwaukee soft. You know? It's better if it brings you closer now. Yeah. When would you? When was the last time, you did it I think three years ago? Yeah. But it was sort of a big deal. Still wasn't. Yeah. We still feel a hall. But you know, they're not like before it was like all my how many shows can we add we're doing five in Vancouver. Like, well, that's the thing about the the the blues guy thing is like, you know, if the people that were your fans from when they were kids they're all in their forties now, probably at least. Yeah. Right. So they're like I can't get out to see the guy got a life. Yeah. Can't get a sitter. Can't you know, can't get off my couch. Whatever the fuck it is. It's different when they're grown up. Yeah. And sometimes they come sometimes, they don't remember a loved Lou Reid's. Sometimes I go see him. Sometimes I wouldn't know. Yeah. Did she Lou a few times a few times? And Iggy I loved I die. Oh, man. I saw Iggy. Once in Florida, just on a fluke. I think he just moved down there. And I was visiting my mother, and he was playing some club only had two hundred people and it like they announced it, I don't even know how we heard about it. We gotta fucking go. It was great. I remember drawn. Arkan Calgary saw him and his band left on him. And then the end so he just did like an encore the drummer came back, and he was just like playing drums and doing an encore. It was like crazy. But it was is so wild he climbing the walls and doing all that stuff. Yeah. He's something else. Yeah. I talked to him in the old garage, right? Yeah. He like we came out on he came out on the deck, and we're about to go in the garage, and he was like I just need to. And he's stretching the short comes off. Right. And he's right sat right across from him. With the shirt on the shirt. Did you ask them? Why the shirt off do you really need to ask them? I mean. I don't know. I it just it's just Iggy. I think it has something might have had something to do with. It's weird because he's got to occupy. Iggy pop, and Jim Oster Berg, Jim Oster Berg, you know. Henry Rollins made he makes a distinction, right? You know, you either talking to you talking to Jim right? And I think that maybe he wanted to start his Agee. But I got Jim eventually was good gyms a, very smart, man. Right. And he meant so much to me as a young, man. Oh, you never listened to him talk on. I don't think I have really he's very intelligent and memory is like a still drum, dude. I mean, you're like you make these assumptions about certain people that you respect musicians. Like when Keith Richards wrote that book, I was like what the fuck. Oh, no. I couldn't believe it. And also, well, I'm I'm a bit obsessed with the stones as well. Not read lots of books of this banquet, or whatever. Like, he's studious. We all think he's always just out there blasted planes on. No he worked so hard on. And he's like very. Intellectual. And you know, I it was like it was opened up. It was like such a lesson in misjudgment without question. I felt but then when you really think back on it or even think about it as a grownup was like, of course, he's fucking smart. How can you stay the stones for as long as they have? Right. Keep generating keep getting your shit together. Like, you know, there's no number of people that can just wheel those guys out there not that kind of ban. They gotta be sharpest fuck, and they have to come together in a way to which is I really respect about him when they are earn stuff hits. Like, he's not going to be the beach boys, and like who's playing the hits they have to come together as a as a unit. Oh, yeah. And you go if you go see him you especially at the beginning of a tour, which I did last time, I always them like twice in my life. But I went to see the last tour like the first show, and it took him a couple of song right to you know, like, oh are they going to they're going to line up and they do right? They did it's they're really playing. Yeah. It's pretty wonderful. So how did we get here? Oh, I remember touring the as we get older. I like. This whole compared myself to the Rolling Stones. No, I had not kids in the hall where the pixies we've always say that. I just listened to do it'll the other day, right? All the way through. Yeah. What great band? What a great band. Did. You know? I didn't which I'd met them. I'm sure Dave house. He's met everybody. Oh, yeah. Well, he's out in the world. He's having a few cocktails not anymore. It's done. Yeah. How long two years? Wow. Good for him yet. And he's looking great. He's doing great. You feel better. He must feel better. Probably in worse. I haven't seen him in a while. Let's check in with you get Dave in here. But you are friends with gore doughty down two. Very good friends. Yeah. Say his wife's name right Downey down while sorry for your was. Well, thank you. And I and I'm sad that like because there was a a little bit of momentum trying to get me to talk to him. But I did I didn't know the work that much. I would have felt like I would have done this service. He is he was such an amazing guy. Yeah. And you know, I don't know if you know, he's did so much work with the first nations people at the end of his life. But when I saw I saw. Hi their last tour. It was the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life. I wish I grew up with it. I wish I knew the music better. I actually one man show I'm doing now, I actually do something which I don't normally do I share because we are very good friends. I share a bunch of our late night emails that we send back and forth that are both very savage. Very funny. You know, when they go on to or I say, oh, this is clearly a ploy to make money, but misspelt it. Yeah. It was plow to make money like that fucking brain cancer. And he's going to figure out what my non sequitur. So it's really it's really wonderful for the audience that they you know, when did they start they started? But when we did, so they, you know, we're very parallel to them in many ways and gigantic. Yeah, gigantic, and I I was actually at Atlantic records this same time as them they they by mistake sent me their contract. But I didn't look at it. Kevin McDonald problem. I had just got there. How why just because it was on the Canadian? I guess it was. Yeah. But how? Like because I guess I didn't really I turn. It turns out when I really sit down think about it. I'm a lot more out of touch than I think I am. But they were definitely probably bigger in candidate. Right. Oh with they they play maple leaf gardens three nights. How big is that place eighteen thousand jeez. Yeah. They play any any place. And it's so sad. How old was he? He was fifty six. Oh my God. Yeah. And such a good guy. Yup. And well, that's interesting in the show. So you because I've noticed that a bit lately with people of our generation, right? The blues, man. Yep. Like, Adam Sandler? And even I watched Springsteen's one man show. He's a little older, but they're definitely taking time to do. Tributes a way. Yeah. You know, San we're talking about Farley right answering seeing talked about Clarence Clemens. But like, it's definitely a piece of the show. Yeah. Where you kind of honor a friend. Yeah. And what is the new one man show? It's just called tails bravery and stupidity. It's just the weird shit. I've done in my life. Yeah. Which is probab-. Ably sometimes to get material. Like, I do you consciously do that. No. Well, I, you know, it's like my wife says, oh, let's go to Pismo beach for the weekend. And there's the vista looks really crappy, and maybe we'll go there could be a story. And of course, you find a dirty diaper in the vista. So it's just you know, I love old. Oh, yeah. I love storytelling, you know, as much as more than stand up where you kill them. And so it's it's that stuff. I mean that was one of those weird lines. You know, I I had to cross at some point where you, you know, when I was a younger man, where before I I ended up desperately doing one person shows point in my career where it's sort of like dad's a cop out, right? Just can't you know, got the goods. Yeah. You got to lengthen it out and the worry about laughs. Right. But you did stand up and say that we met. Yeah. I think that the poor Alex. No at Sewri Steve Allen. Oh, okay. Okay. You did stand up there. Yeah. And twelve ams of C minutes of comedy. Yeah. And did you didn't you didn't like stand up? I stand up, and I still do it. You can do it next week with Kevin show Toronto. But mcdonnell. Yeah. I like stand up, but I it's sometimes nice to be in a theater, you know, and people there just to see you. Yeah. I remember I did without the pressure. I did the improv with Janine a few years ago. And I thought I've worked my whole life to go to have people come see me who know me. And I here I am at the improv and no one care fifty year old woman, celebrating her birthday. Oh, he's wrong at the table. And maybe not. Well, that's that's the other thing. That's weird about like about doing it. Now that I finally after two decades, the can, you know, have enough fans to to sell with either out, right? I still feel like it's part of my job as a comic to go into a place where at least a third of the room doesn't fucking gnome. Yeah. And do the job. Yeah. I think it's noble. I actually do. I think it's cool. You know, win them over. Yeah. But then like midway into that set you like I don't really care about. What did I show after this? What am I don't mind that? But it's just sort of like, even though there's the people that don't know me some of them I can feel like they still don't care, and it's sort of like all right fine. I don't care if you don't care, and you know, the next guy it'll be fun. Hopefully, it'll be your Cup of tea. I remember I did stand up not too long ago. And then I thought I was pretty funny. And then Tom Papa went on like funny. But then there's Tom Papa it's a whole other thing is it hype, man. Oh, and it's just chemically so different. He's he just the whole audience comes. I'm he's raising his arm. Like, they just go crazy got tight craft that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's on top of it. Yeah. Not a missing beat. Everything is hone each beat acts word. Yeah. He's great comic. So the one man showed now do you are you doing it and just in Canada Canada? Now, I'll I'll do some dates in the states. Are you doing a run you gotta theater you doing I touring around. You'll have like you're not just at one place. No, I it's too hard. Yeah. To do to do a month somewhere. Okay. So now after the kids, let's talk about this this this LA period. Right. Because I always knew you know, that the other guys were more visible. But you right. We're working a lot behind the camera, and you became that guy. Yeah. I you know, I directed a few films. And I think I think the last part of my career I kinda got caught in a success trap. Which was I probably did fifteen pilots for like NBC doing the development doing the thing. And it's like, oh, great a sold at the room like on. Then I sold another one the next day. And it's like, and then you realize, oh, they're just they don't make MO. Most of them. Yeah. And so I'd get paid out and people go where where if you've been I've been working. Yeah. I did one day on arrested development. Well, that's what people think what regular people. They're like he must not be doing why I've seen he shows up every five years as a bit player. Yeah. Well, I never I never did any tried to. I never saw it in the acting or any of that stuff. So it was no just I've always thought of myself as a writer anyway. So, you know, look, there's four very talented guys in the kids in the hall, and then there's a guy with a jumbo head who won't standstill, and that's me, but you're very memorable all your characters. Remember, like when you were coming over like, I was like, I know that guy because I remember, you know, like, you were definitely an actor and it comedic performer. Well, I'm good in the kids in the hall. I don't know if I'm always good. And I would always be good thing else. Yes. You so you that was something you just admit it to yourself or or. It's so interesting. I could go into a room and sell a show to ten NBC executive. But I cannot Titian. No, I just didn't want. I did one when I came here and Bob cat goals weight. Was there? I I don't want to be in another waiting room with Bob, wait. Neither of us are going to get the same thing that that's the same thing that stopped you from leading them dress you for the cover. I guess. Yeah. There's sort of like you. How do I? Hold onto my strong, go based. Yeah, integrity. Yeah. Yeah. Why why do I like because we're also fragile that that sort of weird resistance? So I'm gonna wear my own clothes. It's like oh need to go sit there and have my identity destroyed in a room full of people that are kind of like me waiting to do the one. I didn't even create. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. These words don't make any sense to me. Right. Yeah. It's it's humiliating. Yeah. Someone can say these words or someone else can say these words, that's what I don't think. I don't know. I could or someone else we'd better than the other guy to do it. Yeah. Yeah. But he did find your way into directing. And that was just a natural evolution or because it seems like that's one of those things if you do a good job, and you're nice to people that you keep getting work. Yeah. I did it. I started doing it with during the kids in the hall because I did see pass the kids in the hall. And I thought I need a job after this going to be getting another series. I don't want to do another series. Right. So I, and I was I was always been the guy who is obsessed with the music and the extras and the thing and the thing so it was sort of natural. I was out of it for a while. And then now, I sort of you know, I did a show called young punk where I Canadian show. Yeah. I actually done a pilot with Bill Burr and Kevin Hart just before Kevin broke at comedy central. And I kind of had wished I had directed it. Just because of the communication, and you wrote it I wrote it with them. And then you're one of those guys are like we're going to set you up for the writer, Bruce. Yup. That stuff stuff. He we need an adult in the room. But so when I did young punk I started. I I want to direct it so directed it. And then I started doing a little bit more. It's like, oh, hey, I actually really liked directing because I had done. I've done superstar in a couple of. And then I did the Tom green movie where the gave my career a heart attack. You know? Yeah. Stealing harvard. Uh-huh. Which again may thirty two million dollars in cost it, whatever. And so I I went through that Hollywood thing, which I didn't know that I was in film jail. And my major wouldn't tell me that I wasn't going to get out of the job. And so for a long time, not tanked. Yeah. And I and now I want to be at film director. They can't throw me out. And then I was beating my head against the wall. And then I sort of moved into reading pilots and doing TV, but you directed like you did like you did work on shits creek shits creek drill nine. Yeah. Trailer park, boys. Amazing. Yeah. And then I'm going to draft all this this series. I'm doing now. And what was it was the last series? You did up in Canada was that young. Drunk punk. Yeah. I didn't. I didn't other thing called this blows. Which is about a girl who she gets hit by a car in the now, she can blow things up when she gets angry sort of a sci-fi thing. How'd that go? It was good. It was a digital thing. But it was really wonderful. My friends kids were in it. So that was so you keep working. Oh, I work a lot. Was there a period here where you were just sort of like what's going to happen now kind of well up? But also when you sell the pilot you make your money for the year. And then it's like, oh in January ninth years years over. Okay. I guess I guess I'm go out. They don't need. Yeah. I'll go out and August again. So what would you do with that time just family time his family? Yeah. Walk run, whatever, you know, do stuff and mows writing or do and your wife been together since for twenty years. Oh, yeah. And the kids are now one starting high school twelve and fourteen. Wow. Yeah. So you just kinda dug in and just dug in. Yeah. Create a family 'cause I came from a shady one and doing it better. I feel I am. And I couldn't no one could do it worse. And what about the the music career again? I was like, oh, I'm not going to go tour with my record. You know? It was a funny record. Yeah. I did a couple of actually, but I couldn't find the second one the drunk baby. Brought it over for you. Yeah. Yeah. But the other one was funny like people liked it though. People really liked it. I was I was happy with them. Yeah. What was that one called shame based man who did the cover art in that his name is Marshall Ariza? That's quite a it's disturbing. He's an Esquire. Cartoonist illustrator, and I had bought a couple of his pieces that I'd seen in a magazine. Yeah. And it's like I want him to do it. He did it. Yeah. It isn't that exciting. When I went to a studio in New York and was like, I loved it. Yeah. That's the best thing painting. Yeah. It's it's always good to to enjoy the art of somebody that does is working in a medium has nothing to do with you. And you can't do it. Oh, well, that's why I love music. I know. But it's like he. Yeah. It's amazing. It's like, and that's the best thing. Marshall harassment my cover. Yeah. But that was like do you see that? That was a comedy record. Really, right. Yeah. And it was kind of and it was kind of spoken word a little bit of that stuff. I don't smell many spoken word. I don't smell many. That was my Kevin McDonald. So that was good. So how long have you been Toronto? Now, just four months, and does it feel like I'm home. Thank god. No, it's complicated. There's there's no right decision. You know? It's like I like that city though. Yeah. It's a great city. But it's you know, and I'm Canadian, you know, so it's we had I had to get my kids back there. Anyone to be soft in the Hollywood hills, and are any of the other kids up there, just Kevin or Scots back and forth. Mark there sometimes, but he's always doing superstar here. So but everybody in Dave's here. Dave's here. Yup. Yeah. And you guys talk. Oh, yeah. We'll be doing something soon. We don't you know, we keep talking about it. But the but the last tour few years ago, it was good enough to do it again. Yeah. And I think what I mean we've been talking about doing a sketch show for a long time now. And I think we'll end up doing it really with all you guys unit. Yeah. All the original members people always ask us when we do show are all the original members. Who's it gonna be? You know, it's not like Harland Williams. Bruce, Bill Wyman doesn't want to travel anymore. Harland williams. But like how would you do like the like in this? It's weird. Because I I started thinking about it. And we were talking about earlier this aging thing is like, I don't feel bad. But you know, you can like I I was fortunate in that whatever relevance I accumulated, which was not nearly as big as you guys happen when I was in my mid forties. Right. Which is which was great, right? Thank god. I pulled it off. But even now after ten years of of my marginal relevance. I'm starting to. I'm starting to think like United done in my way, where does it go? When do, you know, it's time to stop if you can well you have to keep going. Yeah. Just. Yeah. Yeah. Now when you in thinking about approaching another kids in the hall project, you would call it the kids in the hall again. Yeah. Yeah. We should call it. He haute. You is that what you're suggesting Mark won't just saying like, you know, I'm like, it's the original guys. But they're doing a new thing. Well, then we'd be doing sketches. So it's sketches a sketch song as the song. Would you? Do you think you'd approach it differently and be more age appropriate? Well, we'd have to be. I mean, we have to play. We don't we don't play debutantes anyone old old Delaware billowy late. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know when when we when we did death comes to town or mini series that we had done. So like, I remember looking at the footage quit. We really are older. Really really really older, right? Yeah. I have that moment in the mirror some days some days you because you see yourself all the time. And you're right there. I am. And then one day, you're like nuts happening. Yeah. I remember once I'd written all night, and I looked at my face. And I another as my fifty year old face, right? Yeah. And I was in my early forties. I think there's my fifty. So it's going to be well, I thought this one. Well, do you. I thought it was it was wonderful. And I didn't wanna tell you what a fan. I am of this podcast because he would have not interviewed me. That's true. Yeah. I the only the only thing that happens. Sometimes when people were fans is that they produced the show in their head rigging there. They're like, oh, this is where you're gonna ask me about my dad. Right. Okay. So this is the part where you know, you go who your guys and. Yeah, I didn't have to do that. Who are you guys? What do you mean? I mean, you know, like, the people that inspired you the most outside the brothers. I don't know we talked about musically. It's just more musically. Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. In Agee the damn. Yeah. All those tragically hip. Yup. And but like who is one of the blue your mind the first time visit T Rex. Well, I still remember when they put on God saves the Queen. And the is I still remember that feeling the back of my neck lake ecstasy was coming for me. I'll never forget that. Yeah. How that felt that was it? What the fuck is this? I want to crawl inside it. Yeah. And he stayed there. And now, we're all we made it for. Yeah. Nice talking to you. Nice talking to you, sir. I like those Canadians that was that was a nice chat. Nice guy and funny and very specific unique way. Bruce McCulloch tales of bravery depite is one person show soon to be a book and watch out for tall, boys. Which is a sketch comedy show that produced and directed I'm in Dublin today's Thursday, if you're in Dublin, albeit vicar street tonight, I think there's a few more tickets left. And don't forget Lisa knows how important rest is to a better light Lisa. Visit the foundation of a healthier happier. You lisa's? Most popular multi layer foam mattresses made with premium foams for cooling conjuring and pressure relieving support. It's really the most comfortable all foam mattress. There is don't miss out live healthier live happier by resting deeper. Order today and get fifteen percent off any mattress. For a limited time at Lisa dot com slash W T app and use the promo code w t f that's L E S, A dot com slash W. T F promo code. W t f there's pastries bright day or right, like eight of them. But two of them are just chocolate will do just really talk. Boomer live.

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#567 Because Internet

Science for the People

00:00 sec | 4 months ago

#567 Because Internet

"Irony is a linguistic trustful. The the thing that makes irony really interesting and exciting and useful is the possibility that it could go wrong. Because if if you wanted to be completely clear about everything that you were meaning, we already have a really good tool for that of its cold, not being sarcastic. Welcomed the signs for the people I'm Rochelle Saunders with me. Is Internet Linguist Gretchen? McCulloch She writes the resident linguist column at wired has a masters in linguistics from McGill University runs the blog, all things, linguistic and co hosts, the podcasts lengthy Azam a podcast. That's enthusiastic about linguistics I think you can send a trend. She's here to talk about her recent book. Because Internet understanding the new rules of language Gretchen Woken to signs for the people. Thank you. You for having me. So how does one get into Internet linguistics? Specifically I first encountered linguistics through a pup linguistics book, which is why it's very exciting for me to have written I came across a book, just kind of randomly on a shelf when I was around twelve or thirteen and picked it up and kind of took it home with me. And just couldn't couldn't and thought. This is really cool and kind of kept feeding that interest. During high school and I knew that that's what I wanted to study. When I got to university and things like that, and so it's been real interesting sort of. Trajectory to return to that and do Publix which is the way that I got interested in linguistics and people tell them that I'm the one that got them into it, so that's kind of exciting, I spend a lot of time on the Internet like many of us. And I I think like a lot of linguists. Hard time turning that linguist part of my brain off, you know so. If you go to the pub with me or something, you know we may be having an ordinary conversation, but at some level I'm also sitting there analyzing your vowels. you know I just? I just can't stop thinking about language. And there's it's so hard to go through a day even an hour without encountering language in some capacity and so You know when I was spending a lot of time on the Internet I started thinking. You know I wonder what's going on trying to find. People had done about various aspects of language on the Internet, and trying to write about things that I was noticing and coming across more eventually it got to the point where like I think there's a whole book here I. Think There's more here than I can just do them one article. So, I want to start by talking about what a lot of Internet writing is something that you open your book with which is the idea of informal, writing versus formal writing to? Can you talk a little bit about that dichotomy and what kind of makes the way we communicate on the Internet kind of new and exciting. Yeah, I think what's really interesting is so if you, if you sort of take this historical of look at some of the history of people analyzing communication on the Internet which is very fun and interesting to read these like ninety studies of like Internet communications. It's a real blast from the past. And a lot of them are very preoccupied with this question of what is the Internet communication that people are doing and a lot of them. Come to this conclusion that it's like speech, because it seems to have a lot of the properties of speech you know it's informal, and it's back and forth, and it's you know has a higher tolerance for for error in for for disfluencies and immediate correction, rather being bitten and big formal paragraphs, and so on, and yet there was this thing that I found unsatisfying about this analysis, which is this very clear thing that is different from say your text messages and speech, which is that it's not sounds. Say this any more. Bluntly like it's not spoken. It's the they're not sounds they're symbol. On a screen on a page on a flat surface, they're not like auditory acoustic things like I'm doing right now. And so it seemed to me that. What the analysis of of writing a Internet writing, being like speech were missing. was that. There are all these things that we popularly associate with speech lake, having a conversation with your friends interrupt ability, and you know informality in these kinds of things. That aren't actually properties of the speech stream itself as like a bunch of air exits your mouth, and that our properties instead of the social context in which speech often happens, but speech doesn't have to happen in this sort of social context where you have a back-and-forth conversation, and speech can actually happen in a formal context as well you can. If you're delivering a public speech, I, don't go home and give power points to my dog. For one thing I don't have a dog. The second thing dogs don't pay very much attention to powerpoint. But know there's but former speech has different properties. It's rehearsed, and it's not back and forth like generally speaking, if you're giving a speech and somebody interrupts you there a heckler and they're being rude, whereas if you're at a pub with somebody, and you're having a, you know you're delivering a speech and not letting them get a word in edgewise now you're the one being rude. And so writing a long. Essay or book or any of these sort of article longer length things is giving speeches this formal context. and. They're all these characteristics of formal speech One of which is you know if you go back into the historic tradition that it was often. Created, in verse and rhyme and meter, and in various sorts of artificial things going on which makes it easier to memorize. one of the reasons why Shakespeare's plays or written and I am. The pedometer is because it's easier to memorize something with some meter to it because the meter will tell you if you've forgotten something you know. Each line has to have these ten syllables. With these certain beats, then if you get somewhere and you only have three like. Oh, I definitely forgotten something here. Haven't I song show easy to memorize? Similarly with songs it has this sort of rhythm, but like and if you go back to like the the Iliad and the Odyssey and stuff like they were, they were also written in in meter, like the ancient Greeks were wandering around talking to each other conversationally index illich examiner. They were. Having ordinary conversations that weren't in verse any more than Shakespear was talking in I like his friends ordinarily at the pump. So! This, there's there's always been a distinction in speech at least as far back as we have records between the formal and the informal. and In fact, this is so old that we've kind of forgotten about it. We don't think about it very often. And in writing writing has often been the domain of formal things you know the equivalent of these speeches things that are rehearsed things that are edited partly because you know, it's fairly expensive to produce written materials. so maybe WANNA put them through editing process. It's also expensive to disseminate them, so you want to you know. Disseminate them like a speech. Make them really good. But not all writing has to be informal. But not all writing has to be formal, and in fact, the more you think about it, there are informal precursors in the written domain to Internet writing as well and I'm talking about things like letters postcards little like notes that you leave like a post it note or note on the kitchen table to somebody. Diary entries are all sorts of casual things that weren't necessarily intended for public, and maybe they written for like one person or they were sent to a small number of people. Maybe they are posted handwritten posters. People make like lost cat or something yard sale. And these tend to have it using credit spellings, and they are not always proof-read, and they're not always extended paragraph sometimes, they're just like a few fragmentary lines and sentences. And things like that and they are actually really interesting precursor for a lot of the writing that we see on the Internet that seems sort of weird and fragmentary, and you know informal, but actually it's got this sort of historical precedence I found it really exciting. It is really interesting because I hadn't thought it about it that much before reading the book, and there's actually a quote from your book that I want to read just briefly, which is when we think about writing, think about books and newspapers, magazines and academic articles and the school essays in which we tried and mostly failed to emulate them. We learn to read a formal kind. Kind of language, which pretends that the past century or two of English hasn't really happened, which downplays the alchemy of two people tossing thoughts back and forth perfect balance. We learned to write with a paralyzing fear of red ink, and we're taught to be wary about form before we even got to consider what we wanted to say, as of good writing were thing of mechanistic rule. It was something I had never thought of, but you're right. We learned to speak colloquially. We learned to speak by having people speak around us by observing casual conversations formal conversations, conversations of all types, but writing or an reading we learned to do in this very kind of artificial way, or at least we have up until now we learn it in a kind of formal from through exercises at school. We don't pick it up from the world around us. We are taught a certain type of reading a certain type of writing. At it makes me so sad because writing writing can be fun, but in the same way that public speaking can be fun, but I think a lot of people have similar sorts of anxieties about writing formerly as they do public speaking, and for very good reason, because there are these you know these big high pressure, environments where you you know people who are really. Artistically gifted at them do send a lot of time developing that skill, you know if you want to become an actor you. You spend a lot of time developing that skill. Or a you know. Public Speaker or something like that. You spend a lot of time working on that, but the things that make a really compelling performance or really compelling novel. playfulness with language and yet a lot of advice on how to do language is like. Here's an apostrophe blower era. And that's not. That's not what makes a really good book. Compelling the APOSTROPHES. Really boring low level. Things! What makes it exciting is is playfulness and interesting and beauty. which isn't isn't so much a thing of technical accuracy as it is music. I think what's interesting as well as this idea that we've always had a kind of informal writing, but with the creation of the Internet. I think there's something there's definite I think there's obviously something new and interesting about this from a scholarly perspective, and even from a standpoint from a cultural perspective. A lot of that previous informal writing was private and hidden, and between a very small number of people or very throwaway, whereas on the Internet as I'm sure we've all learned by now. The Internet is forever or at least it can have a long memory, and it is also a kind of inherently public space. Yeah you can write a tweet and it can go viral and lot of people can see and you're like. Oh, well. I wasn't expecting my Typo to go viral, but I guess that's happened now and it's. It's very normal and I. Think one of things that excites me in terms of how. Attitudes towards language have changed. Is I feel like I remember back in like? Early Blogs even early forums. There was a lot more sort of. linguistic nit picking in like a comment section like someone right this very interesting blog posts and the comments would be like you have typo here, freak. Okay, guys, can we can? We maybe engaged with the content of his post? You know to me it's. You're looking at sort of superficial arguments of you know is there. Is there a Typo here like? Is there some sort of like apostrophe? Thing isn't where you to put apostrophes. It's like doing an ad hominem attack like nobody thinks that. Oh, well, you're ugly is a good response to an argument like that. We recognize that the logical fallacy and we should be able to look at. Things that people are saying and evaluate them for the content of their ideas, and maybe for certain aesthetic beauty without getting distracted by these sort of superficialities of like. Did you do this thing that my English teacher said was good or bad like that's an the inverse is also true. Somebody says something I've horrid. They say it beautiful language. We shouldn't be okay with abhorrent ideas, just because they're like propagandistic, expressed in in beautiful language either I feel like there's is some kind of inherent bias or like. A fallacy whenever the Oxford Comma gets brought up I, feel like there's something in there like a modern logical fallacy. that. We're seeing play there. I. Yeah, like do it. Don't do what I don't care like. Whatever there are so many more interesting things you could be talking about. Including what looking at people are actually doing with language, which is really neat one of my favorite examples of the shift in how we're learning to use language is. This thing came up. The twitter because somebody told me in this tweet. which is where I get a lot of good ideas. About two young people one of them was I think around three and the other was maybe eight who were texting back forth, children. Obviously, the three year old wasn't literate yet. And, so they were texting back and forth to each other in emojis in strings of emojis. which is still delightful and so I wondered and the person who. Posted wondered who was Lulu. Miller Lulu wondered like who else is doing this and I wondered like is this. Is this common or kids doing this now? Like I, don't I? Don't have kids like. Maybe this is what the kids are doing these days. And so I made a survey and I asked people who had people who had kids who are willing to sort of anonymous. Some of their kids text exchanges with themselves with another adult like try to get whatever consents you can and made a small child. MUCCI texting Corpus Oh, wow! Which is first of all incredibly adorable. I wrote an article about it for for wired in in more detail mentioned it I. mentioned it in because Internet but I I was doing it like right as the book was going to press I snuck in one sentence about neuronal hoping for. Who and I come this. This child Emoji texting Corpus and looking at. Can you just paste in? You know you and the child tell me how will the child is whether they know how to read yet And any any other comments you know, think about what they were trying to express when they were sent. Saying this and you notice some really interesting things. One of these that the the way kids use emoji between the ages of like two to three to four really shifts. The two year. Olds are really just keyboard masters like they are going all over the place, the using some of the really weird. Emoji like you and you're like I didn't know these flags existed. What country even is that? They're really the obscure symbols. That really going. GOING FOR IT and They're kind of. They're very sort of haphazard. You look at them and as an adult. You're like I, have no idea what's going on. And by the time they hit just a couple of years later. You know three or four. They have preferences you know like there was one kid who really liked any sort of like animal emoji. That was a little bit like venomous like the crabs and the Scorpions and the. Like a lobster, the I think is there a lot lobsters and the crocodiles and stuff like any of the little bit dangerous. Animal Emoji and that was like this kids thing. and then you have other kids, its pretty common lot of the kids like you know hearts, rainbows and Smiley faces, and like the kind of the ones you think like sticker pack you know for for kids Whereas like the two year, olds. They don't really notice that as much the the four year olds are like Oh no I have preferences and these preferences. I know what I'm trying to send here And then what's interesting? Is that a? Couple years later as the kids learn how to read their mood, you used drops off pretty drastically and some of the parents. Even I didn't ask specifically. I, said like Emoji or any other stuff I didn't ask specifically like. Is this a specific age or anything that happens, but some of the parents, and like you know aunties and various people that were doing this for kids in their lives, spontaneously commented Oh. These are some messages that I had saved copy pasted from like a couple of years ago back when this kid before this kid learn how to read, because then they used to send a lot of Emoji, but now they send me words instead because they learned how to read. Interesting I think this is really interesting. Right so first of all anybody who's worried Ono emoji. They're taking over which I feel like was more of a common narrative a few years ago. People seem to have come down. which I think is good. But, if you're worried about this still, it's like okay well. The kids at age five and six are realizing that Emoji are not adequate for older stuff. They want to express it. It turns out. Words are actually useful really nice. Unsurprising to me, but seems to be reassuring to a lot of people And the other thing is is that when you look at the exchanges? It's also really interesting to see what the adults are texting to. The kids 'cause sometimes the adults will text Emoji back, but sometimes the adults will actually type words to kids who can't read yet oh interesting. So. There's this one really cute example where so you know. There's like two dinosaur Emoji, right? There's the like the T. rex in the her before Brontosaurus or whatever calling Brontosaurus as now. I'm not a three year old dinosaur names. So. The, kids hands a bunch of t rexes. And the adult says something like Oh dinosaurs from the kids. A bunch of the other dinosaur gets us more dinosaurs, and then the kid sends a bunch of trees and a bunch of like you know that like hunk of meat on a bone emoji. Yeah, so then it's like. I don't says dinosaurs and dino food. And it's kind of like how you know if they were walking in a park or something in the kids like pointing at a tree, it's like Oh. Yes, there's a tree like Oh, there's a Doggie. Do you see the dog? In the way that adults often narrate objects of joint attention with kids when you're going about their life like Oh. Yes, that is a squirrel. You know that kind of thing. Except the adults doing this in writing, and of course, this adult knows that this like three year old often how to read, but what is presumably happening because none of these kids like had their own phones at three. They were doing this on a parent or caregivers phone to somebody else who the parent or caregiver. No, sometimes it was like the other parent who is like away on a work trip. Sometimes it was like a grandparent, or like a onto your uncle kind of family, friend, Godparent, type, person so somebody the parent knows it's on the parents phone, and so the adult on the other end knows that the parent is going to be able to read this to the kid. And, say you know Aunty so and so says Dino Food? What was so, What's interesting to me about? This is like. My parents read to me as a kid, but they read to me like picture books like you to like you think of as typical thing to re- to a kid, or they were. Try to read to me like stop signs. You see this this side, it says stop trying to point out you know illiteracy in in the environment, which is like a thing that you're supposed to do when you're teaching kids why reading is important? But what they never would have read to me was. Things that were written specifically for me. You know maybe if I guess I got a birthday card or something like happy birthday your stunt Gretchen on your second birthday or whatever I put like. The idea that you can have writing not just as a way to communicate with. Absent at people or to learn stories in the sort of formal context, but as a way to communicate with specific people who you love. WHO The child loves! What a powerful motivator to want to learn how to read so that you can read what your other parents who isn't here right now or your grandparents or your onto your uncle or Godparent, or whatever is trying to to you? This adult who you love is trying to communicate with you, and this is how you're going to do it yet. Really motivates it motivates the reason to read in a new set of ways and a new set of much more immediate ways. I would expect for somebody WHO's. Who's very young and just learning to speak and read because it show it so immediate? People do it all the time. Now you see people reading you see people texting writing little bits and pieces to each other. That's such a part of how we communicate such a necessary part of day to day communication that it it's it's I I would imagine that learning to read now as a six year old as a five year old is a very different experience than when I was six years old. It exactly, it's just it's this. You know here's this way of communicating with the people that you love and it's. It's grandma that has written this tax you're. It's GRANDPA. That has written this text to you that you're that you're readings. You communicate with them. And of course they can still talk on the phone and do you know video chat and the kinds of things that they do do that as well But this idea that like the the reason that you'd want to read and write is to talk to specific people and like bookstore. Greatly, no one's not reading books. Any more people are still buying books. Like reprieve books to your kids to whatever but. Talking to actual people you know in love for you know we're behind the phone like that's cool. I think that's great. It's yeah, it's it's such a we learn our cultures, and how we communicate in all of the different ways we communicate, and now because it's such an embedded part of communicate of our daily communication, it totally makes sense that we would share that with our very young children, just as a way of it being part of our day to day lives in the same way of having a conversation with someone while you're making dinner and the kids sitting at the table in a high chair like that's just yeah, that's just life happening around you. And I think the other thing that's interesting. Is that adults in you know spoken language and signed language? talked to kids and talk around kids before the kids are quite ready and able to participate back. Yes, You know in some cultures. They don't really talk to their kids much directly. Until the kids start, you know making making noises towards or making making gestures towards talking themselves, so it's not required like you can. You can use baby talk. You don't have to Kids seem to do fine either way. The? There are. There all these different ways that you can interact with kids, but kids do get exposed to language before they're actually able to produce it, and they produce sort of bits and pieces and fragments that are kind of. Heading towards language, you know the Babbel's bub-bubba or like kids that are exposed to sign languages babble with their hands They produce these. Things are heading towards language signal that they're interested in communicating before they're actually capable of putting producing full words, and so I wonder in this study hasn't been done. I can't claim that my Emoji. Small Child, not texting Corpus can. Fully do this I'd love to see someone. Do a proper study, but it seems to me that sending some emojis, it might be kind of like a babbling in a digital contexts teaching the kids. Okay, you can tap on the keyboard and you can send symbols, and you can see some stuff and how to do this, and so the transition into writing is more seamless kind of like how often learn how to? To sort of draw, scrawl pictures onto paper before they start trying to write letters, so it can be a sort of scaffolding into this other skill that turns out to be super, useful and interesting for communication, and you can still be having the sort of two way dialogue via phone, the screen via symbols on a on a flat surface Even though you haven't yet figured out how to actually type words. Well because you're still getting a a reaction back in some mechanism, things are appearing on the Stream. Somebody is replying to you in the same way that if you're babbling vocally and mom or dad is around, it's very likely that they will talk back to you or respond in some way to the sound you're making. Yeah and kids learn how to do that sort of turn taking before they learned how to do actual words they can produce a string of syllables or a string of signs that don't actually make sense and the nil like pause and the week for the other person to say something, and they'll do more like they can produce that turn taking thing in the physical domain and so learning, as we'll sort of turn. Taking norms in the domain is just so cool it's. It's really neat I can. You know they're learning to do something. And the and the adults are paying attention so either the adult. Send Emoji back so they'll. They'll pick up on a couple of Emoji that the kids are sending in. They'll send back a similar g like you know used. Kids sends a dinosaur. You send a dinosaur back or they'll. They'll narrate them in in words, and both of those I think are really interesting in terms of teaching the rhythms of A. A text based conversation. Yeah, really really fascinating I do WanNa talk a little bit more about Emoji as well I think I mean obviously most of us use Emoji and it's a very down normal part of our day to day lives, but it really wasn't so long ago. That emojis were brand new. So can you talk a little bit about how how we use emojis? And how are you of? Them has changed since their introduction. I like to think of emoji broadly, speaking as being similar to gesture. And I think both Emoji and sort of the broader emotional ecosystem whether that's tech space, emoticons, colon, parenthesis, or gifts, even larger or stickers that some people use these various kinds of things, a lot of them seem to have communicated functions that are very similar to how we use gesture in communications, and some of them correspond to very specific gestures, so if you send it to somebody something like good job thumbs up whether that's you know in speech or whether that's in writing That's the thumbs up. There is going to sort of reinforce that positive message. If you send someone good job, let's say the Middle Finger. Or even like the rolling is now, you're being sarcastic. You're undermining the message deliberately. Communicating on multiple levels here. Can Be something pretty different from like good job. Thumbs up like good job. And I'm not sincere about this. Epithet of your choice so. The and there are some you can kind of do a direct parallel between between gestures and emojis there, but even something like. Good. Plus Eggplant Emoji. That's probably in any window. The. There's A. There's a bunch of different things you can do that. Even though there is sort of direct gesture equivalent of an eggplant Emoji, it's still. It can add this pragmatic function of telling you pull the context for how to interpret or the intention for how to interpret the words that they're. They're going with So that's that's one of the ways that I that I think of Emoji in terms of their role in communication, more broadly speaking because with the exception of these two and three and four year olds. Who Haven't learned to read a write in to abandon emoji. Or using. Would you very very differently once they learn how to write? people don't seem to send a lot of messages that are like Emoji only extended stories, which was the sort of big panic years ago. in terms of what you know. Maybe maybe people are gonNA write words anymore. They're only gonNA send Modi's. What I find quite interesting. having been I mean I i. was definitely somebody who's on the Internet fairly early I got on in the early mid ninety s one of those early. Gio Cities People. Making nerdy websites about my nerdy. nerdy favorite things when I was a teenager. And what I've really noticed across my participation on the Internet is how ubiquitous now things like Emoji a motor are I mean. These things have been in use in varying places for a while, because one of the challenges inherent in being restricted to written language is you lack tone? You lack an emotional understanding of what people are saying, so it can be very easy to misunderstand or take something out of context based on your own emotional state or your own suspicions or your own assumptions about the other person's intent, and so I I mean it is being able to clarify this. Is, has always been important since I think the Internet, began just to just grease the wheels, a little bit of text based Communication but what I find really fascinating is that there was it was always like a thing for informal communication, but now I'm as I as I work from home, and as I spent a lot of time in. In Work Chat places like slack. Emoji are so incredibly valuable and necessary as part of my work communication like very official work kind of weirdly formal informal language, because it's so important to have those tone triggers those gestures, as you say to make sure that you can have smooth communication and efficient communication, because sometimes words aren't enough. Yeah, and the I think what you've just exposed that like like all good dichotomy is, it's actually a continuum. And, in this case, the dichotomy between formal and informal when it comes to language is is also a continuum. and think. Sometimes people people look back at the forms of writing that have survived in a very public Lee observable sort of way, which not all kinds of writing that existed in history, but it's the forms that reproduce salon, and they think kind of you know Russia is. If if only words was good enough for Shakespeare, it should be good enough for us. which first of all Shakespeare produced plays? Were actually not enough. Your. You're really strict about. It should be really pedantic about this like. If people actually find it of weird to just read Shakespeare on the page, and then when it really comes to life when it's in this well acted production, you have costumes and actors, and you know gestures and vocal inflections. These sorts of things that really make language come to life so i. The claim that words are good enough for Shakespeare. And I think this, but I think this observation that it's hard to communicate. sarcasm or it's hard to communicate irony or double meaning, or these sorts of subtle additions to meaning or tone gesture in the online context is easier. Old people have been complaining about it, not just in fact in the online context, but there are proposals for irony. Punctuation marks the oldest one that I'm aware of dates back to fifteen seventy five. So there's almost five hundred years of people saying Gosh. Wouldn't it be great if we could communicate? irony has made writing and there's there's one like every century, since then like Russo had a proposal There's like several different French philosophers had proposals for plan D Hany Irony points There are proposals. In the eighteen hundreds or poses menagerie. This proposal for SAR tallies from like in the mid nineteen hundreds really just really goes all the way through every century. There's at least one sometimes more more than one proposal for like she we we could represent irony writing. and so clearly people think this is important and not just in an Internet context the thing that I find exciting an interesting is that the Internet context is where. These proposals stopped being sort of these abstract philosophical proposals like some somebody thinks this is a good idea and start being practically used too much higher level, and there's a whole bunch of them. You know so. There's a few examples of ironic punctuation that come into being before the Internet things like scare quotes like that. Is that type of ironic punctuation or there's There's a certain amount of ironic capitalization, and like ironic use of the copyright or trademark symbol. they. Also, Pre Internet although it becomes more common on the Internet as well. like very important ideas like okay, we'll. Maybe this isn't actually that important. The but in the on the Internet, there becomes a whole bunch of them. you have the ironic or sarcastic the till? You have Iran. Chris Acoustic use of Just like. Out Like sparkles in general, sometimes spelled emoji it to surround something One of the ones that I really like is the The lack of a question mark to signal a rhetorical or ironic question. Yes so if I send something like what could possibly go wrong without a question mark I'm not really asking you to numerous a list of things that could go wrong. I'm just asking this question ironically which? I think is really brilliant because we actually get. Four different possibilities right. You can ask a statement. You can say a statement like something has a statement syntax like. Sounds good. with no question mark, and then it's still a statement you can read a statement with a question mark, and then it can indicate a question or just rising intonation sounds good. and that's sort of uncertainty, or it can indicate a UP. Talk can indicate you know the you're not quite finished with your sentence or sort of tentativeness or that you're making it into a partial question, and then you can do the inverse. You can have a statement that has the syntax of a question, so what could possibly go wrong with an actual question mark where it's a real question probably, or you can have with this of a question that don't have a question mark where it's now this ironic question so from this you know like. You, you could if you wanted to be like rare question, Mark doesn't indicate question anymore, but like that. We have like four possibilities now. This is exciting. This is rich S. this is expanding the emotion possibility. This is like those guys in the fifteen hundreds like this is what they wanted. And now we have succeeded at their goals. I think that's great. Although I. do find it immensely satisfying that we probably have succeeded at what they wanted, but definitely not in the way that they maybe would want. No, no, no, no probably not the way they wanted to. Well interesting thing is, is that a lot of these earlier proposals? Four ironic punctuation are things like backwards question, mark, or an upside down exclamation mark. And what I think they recognized at least to some extent. Was that Something that's ironic is. There's literature on irony, because of course there is. A which I got to read fellow when I was reading because Internet. and. The thing that characterizes irony is that you have something that works on a literal level in some sense, and then the literal level is undermined by some additional cue. That has the possibility for misinterpretation. because. Irony is a linguistic trustful. Interesting thing that makes irony really interesting and exciting and useful is the possibility that it could go wrong. Because if if you wanted to be completely clear about how everything that you were meaning, we already have a really good tool for that, and it's called not being sarcastic. Don't nobody meads irony. For communicative, certainly a literal communicate of sort of level but the value in irony. Is that when you? When you do a trust, Paul with someone and they catch you now. You have this additional sort of trust between them, because you've just short of understanding that you can take this risk and they can support you in it. And so the problem with creating a single unambiguous, ironic punctuation mark that only works for irony. Point of irony. I only doesn't work. If you're like? Hey, guys of being ironic now let me explain the joke. Telling jokes by explaining them like no, no nobody likes that yet feels it feels like the irony of leaving the question mark off. Are you serious or a is extensively? Question is really a shortcut to so many complex things that would take way too many sentences to type out on my phone. Right, and what you're trying to do with all of these various kinds of ironic punctuation is sort of gently signal, but there's something else going on here in the person needs to interpret your statement with some extra layer of context somehow. Right and the precise nature of that additional meaning is left up to that context and your relationship with each other and these types of You know what what you've said in how you said it is left up to a certain amount of interpretation. Because if you wanted to convey your entire literal meaning in a very spelled sort of way. Again we we have a tool for that. And it's called not using irony at all. So. It's this risk that irony takes and the thing that I found very interesting compelling about reading some literature on irony. was that. Even in speech. You know you're sort of gold standard. We've been ironing. In speech for years. Not, sure if that's how it works. Let's go with it. We've been irony in speech for centuries and Millennia. You know before we recorded time we've. We've ironing for years. There is still this possibility that irony sometimes goes wrong in speech, and in fact -Ness, analyze this as irony is heading two components, one is the initial ironic statement, and the second is the statement by the recipient that indicates that the irony is understood, and either continues the irony or Knicks riff on it, or does some sort of laugh or chuckle or acknowledgment. The irony is received as intended. It's his two part thing because this communication can go wrong because the risk that irony takes. Is the risk that something could go wrong and but when you, when you execute a dangerous conversational maneuver together, and you succeed you have this excitement and this feeling of like we've. We've done this thing. We've succeeded at this tricky sort of conversational task and brings people closer together, so it's it can be worth it and it's because of the risk that when it succeeds it so exciting. The way technology is starting to impact our language, and our were choice in the way. It's evolving in the way it's moving around. The world is I. Think quite different, and you talk a little bit about this in your book, in particular with the advent of things like twitter in particular where you can watch a lot of conversations happening, you can kind of look at the back, and forth of people who you don't know personally, and are having their own side conversation in a sort of public space and what I found really interesting, as well is the idea that new words or phrases or ways of talking or linguistic. Elements of communication that appear in. Tax Face Language on the Internet are spreading in slightly different ways, whereas if you know, language has always spread, but it tends to have spread mostly based on geography. Because you were talking to people, you'd pick up language that you heard and in order to do that. You generally have to be in the same location as somebody whereas online and I, definitely feel this, and this really struck a chord with me. I picked up my Internet. Language comes from the people. I talk to online or the the people that I watch talking online, and those tend to be not geographically based. They tend to be. People who share interests with me? Yeah, it's really interesting. It's the kind of thing that I am really excited to see the next future decades of how computational sociolinguistics looks into this area, because it's a sort of burgeoning south field of linguistics and looking at sociolinguistics in this computational sense where you have a a lot of access to data, one of the studies that I think is interesting for this at the moment, looks at how people pick up words from people that they follow on twitter sleet sort of network analysis of like collecting onto people, and then the people who they follow and what they found was interesting. Is that there sort of two types of? new vocabulary items that people picked up from other people on twitter. And one was the kind that take advantage of the Renton medium that are specific to the written medium, so that things like acronyms acronyms they're very efficient and writing. They're not actually very efficient in speech often, because if you say something like wt F that actually takes longer to say than the thing that stands for because w such a long letter. and. so acronyms, and then also things like like phonetic spellings or creative spellings so You know writing something like GonNa for going to that was already common, but there are. There are new ones that come up You know where no one like. You can't really spread GonNa for going to. Because every English speaker already says gonNA. But you can spread the re spelling GonNa because not everyone necessarily right going to with the shortened more phonetic spelling so you can spread a re spellings like that but it there are. There are very written thing to spread you can't. You can't learn that responding from speech in the same way. and then also things like emoticons and emojis stuff, which are of course visual, and you don't know smiling. Someone does not thereby teach them how to use the smile mode con-. I don't think so. So, there's stuff that takes advantage of the the written medium in particular, and that's that's the kind of stuff that I tend to look at is Internet language because you can show that it has to be spreading via the Internet, or at least if the writing and writing spreads via the Internet, because there aren't allowed people sending postcards to each other. They are. and then there were other words that are just like Oh. Here's this word that you could. You could write, or you could say out loud. You know here's this. Here's this Something like lit for drunk or something like that okay, sure over for great would both of those things like shirt? That's a word you can say it loud. You could write it. There's nothing particularly special, but the written medium for that word. and so, what was interesting is that they found that there was this correlation between how often people would see these one set of words that take advantage of the written medium. while words, plus because it also includes emoticons and Emoji. And for those there with his very direct relationship, between how often someone would have seen that in their feed, and whether they picked it up later, and for the kind that had already available spoken equivalent, there wasn't a direct relationship. You could basically couldn't predict anything there and so the idea was okay people. People are very directly affected by the written medium for things that are have to be written, but for things that can be written and spoken. They're still being affected by stuff that happens off line. We can't measure by looking at twitter data a so. There are still other mechanisms for language spreading whether that's through people that you talk to face to face. Or over. In invoice conversations which we don't don't track via twitter. Or through through? Their there does seem to be. if the Internet has a has a vocabulary that is, that is specifically Internet Ish. It's the kind that relies on this written medium to spread And, so it's. Interesting to sort of this sort of network analysis like you can't even imagine doing it before you have access to these massive amounts of text because. Like e you know really really really how you have to. there have been a few studies especially of children acquiring language where they'll get research. Researchers will come in and record the child for like I. Know an hour a week, and that's got ton of data, and you have to go through audio recordings, and it's a massive pain to deal with audio and you still only get this very tiny snapshot of what the kids are doing, and you do it for like a dozen kids get so much data and you have to deal with so much of it. look that was the kind of thing that was big data. before we started doing so much stuff in public text formats, which can be analyzed. Even if they're not one hundred percent representative of everything that happens online right, because not everyone's on twitter and the demographics that are on twitter are not a random snapshot of all people or even all Internet users you know like they're disproportional disproportionately from certain age groups disappointingly from certain demographics from certain income groups like it's not. A straightforward snapshot of everyone who is online, but it is some snapshot of some people which is not you know like lots of people are using facebook and twitter. They're using instagram or WHATSAPP or something in the not twitter. But. Those are harder to analyze because those are private. So, am I would assume I would say that. One of the other interesting things about this is if you want to do some research with a kid where you get forty hours of recording, you can't get forty hours of recording from two years before you sort of have to get future recordings, and you can't go back in time whereas a lot of places that where we are producing and creating and having these conversations in public. If there is something that POPs up, you can actually look back and see okay. How long has? has this been around kind of weird it start popping up in this particular network which is something. I'm not sure that we've ever been really easily able to do. In the field of linguistics before in the same kind of way, yeah, and there's this really interesting, so one of the one of the fun myths that a lot that gets spread like Shakespeare invented so many words. What's actually really interesting? Is that what happened? was that many early dictionary composers Alexa congresses in English compilers and people who looked for citations for this dictionaries. What they had access to in terms of historical English writing was the complete works of Shakespeare. Right. It wasn't necessarily that Shakespeare. Actually at invented these words or even that Shakespeare was the first person to write them down It was that Shakespeare was the tax from like the old attacks that people had the lexicographers in like the eighteen hundreds had access to. because. They didn't have like Oh. Here's this massive digital corpus of everything that's ever been written in English before seventeen, hundred or something. That they could just search for. They literally had to read page by page being like Has Anyone here use the word Clementine or whatever? I can't imagine being an early lexicographer and having to go like all right I need to find this word. Oh No! That would be that would be quite an interesting challenge They had like boxes and boxes and shelves and shelves of like new cards like cue cards like a library card catalog systems. That was what they were doing. That's how they were keeping track of this type. Stuff and people would like send in like snippets from various types of things, but in terms of historical data you know a lot of it was basically what people had access to and I think it gives us this perception that if new. New kind of a few of these big great writers came up with all came up with a bunch of words wins. Actually their words were more preserved because we don't have access to as many letters from the time period that they haven't necessarily digitized. They aren't necessarily preserved unless they're. Writers were famous and these days. We know that it's not so much that like famous writers invent a bunch of words that ordinary people use words. They pick up words from each other. They spread words And, it's you know and especially it's often. Economically marginalized and disenfranchised groups, who more innovative with vocabulary, and so if you're going to be like celebrating Shakespeare for inventing a whole bunch of words, which he didn't actually do. They, you know people really be giving this kind of excitement and credit to is like young urban black women, and you know queer. Queer Black Youth and stuff like this. Who often are the source of these heights of Invention But don't get the same set of cultural cachet for it. I would assume that there are also some interesting ethical questions around conducting research on what are extensively public, a large public repository of communication, but that a lot of people. Who have maybe only ten or twenty followers all as all of whom they generally know, personally in some way, shape or form, even if it's personally across the Internet they probably have some expectation that perhaps their words are kind of private. If they're even though they're in public because of the sort of obscurity of their account, so my sumptious is that there's also some interesting ethical questions with studying body or a collection of data like the public twitter record. Yeah I think there is an interesting ethical question. I think it's something that you know like a an IRA. Be Institutional ethics. Board is GONNA. Say Well. It's public, so it's fine, but I think there's this more complicated question there, which is what kind of expectations does the person have? That's putting this out there. Would they be upset to find this out and I think it depends a law in terms of what you're doing with the data necessarily. Necessarily, because you're pulling millions of tweets, and you're looking at them in aggregate, the results aren't as they traced back to individual people, so I feel a lot more okay about like okay. Well, you know. These are being compiled from people who very few twitter followers who are expecting their tweets end up in a research study, but it's not actually going to be traceable back to that individual person, so they're not gonna like suddenly. Have you know? trolls or eight miles or something be directed towards them. Because of that one tweet they made like five years ago to twenty people It's going to be immersed in some sort of massive statistical thing, and it's not going to be extractable from that whereas if you're going to quote someone specifically. By name, there's visit sort of tension. Because a lot of ethics, research boards will say okay well, you can quote people but you have to make their quotes anonymous. And there are two problems with that one is that it's very hard for something to actually be anonymous if people can just plug that string in quotes into Google and there there by find the original post. Because you can omit the username, but people can actually still find that if it's publicly available, the Internet and so sometimes researchers deal with that problem by doing a certain lexical substitution for words that aren't important than that. If you plug a tweet in you can, you can't find anymore. So I remember I think one paper was doing this with saying okay, so we found some tweets about You know people people using Emoji and we want to use one of the as an example, but will substitute like mom or dad or one family member for another family member and keep the content of the Mogi the same. It's still I with family member. He doesn't particularly have to. Reflect the exact content of what the person's tweet said. and we can do a couple substitutions like that then. It makes the tweet effectively unglue global and still preserve the rest of the context, but of course you can't do that for every type of of data. What I did, and because Internet, when I was trying to decide like which parts. which things to quote that a you know to give examples about Internet language was in some cases I was able to ask the person who who had said it you know. How do you want to be quoted what you want your name to be quoted by? In other cases I looked for quotes where people seem to be engaging in a Meta dialogue about Internet language Reiko used the quotes as both examples of the phenomenon in question, but also as ways for Internet people to participate in the conversation. So. There's this example from when the Library of Congress announced that they were archiving tweets which they've now stopped doing because turns out, there are a lot of tweets, maybe not all of them are systemically particularly interesting, but a lot of people started addressing their tweets in the days after that announcement to future historians and archivists at the Library of Congress. And so I felt okay about quoting a few of those tweets, because those people were actually addressing those tweets to posterity. Right and so posterity is now answering the back because it's been like five years. That long posterity, but if somebody says you know, please please make sure you My cat pictures under kitty. Or you know like. I think that's a way of. Like that, that's somebody WHO's trying to have that sort of reaching out and trying to have that sort of conversation that I don't feel like they would be displeased to find that tweet in a book about Internet language. I think they'd actually very tickled. Whereas somebody who's just like Oh ahead a bad day like you know this you know by dog died or something like the might be kind of. Weird it out to find that kind of tweet quoted. Personal even just content. Wise trying to figure out what. These kinds of things are so let which gets us to the second point, which is to one extent. Okay, maybe one of anonymous something, but there's a tension between anonymization and also attribution because. If. Somebody has said something kind of clever on the Internet. Maybe they want that attribution that they are the author of this clever thing in the Internet, and they don't want to be anonymous and have that authorship taken away from them. I was actually On a on a panel wants about different ways to that. People Communicate Online and another. My co-panelists was doing this study about. How people talking about linguistics on twitter, I was talking about a different platform. and he'd gotten. Approval from his board to do this study to do this. Like sort of case study analysis of how people using twitter online, and he had gotten permission from each of us each of people who who had tweeted about this thing to like screen capture tweets and use them the presentation. But, the higher be had required that he anonymous the tweets, and I said look your screen capping me I'm your co panelist I. Don't feel like I'm really research subjects here? I would like authorship attribution. Please keep my name on my tweets. Don't anonymous me because I want people to know. It was me because I'm talking after you. He said no, the IRBE says. I can't do that was like sorry. What I think the wishes of the subject should over the be in this case. Yeah, it's interesting especially with something like twitter, because there's a lot of different tensions in play here, one of them is in some cases, and even if you're somebody who doesn't have a lot of followers, you may aspire to have a lot of followers and. Is a is a performance platform. Right and so what I did is like I would quote people by whatever username. They were using on a particular platform. So if they want that to be pseudonymously, it will be attributed to whatever that student in was, and they would be the ones in control of what they linking that suited him to their actual name or not I didn't try to go find people's like. Wallet Names to tribute to them to their Internet names because I'm not in the business of tried to people. Right but. At the same time I did want credit those pseudonyms because if somebody wants to say like who is this person that made this funny cripple the Library of Congress. It's a funny quip. They I feel like they can get credit for that. And I don't feel like it's going to, but also picking something that is funny and does show. It's user in a good light I'm not picking you know. There are also people who tweeted like really. Like long strings of swear, words applied. We've be like Put that in your archive. Those like this is very interesting I. Don't think I'm going to put this in the book because I think I can make the same point with the cat pictures. And also not necessarily exposing someone to this particular type of criticism by making that string easy for someone to find them so or you. Bring someone up in a way. That potentially makes them. A target is also I. think something that you know. I think sports are just not considering because they're treating all kinds of online quotation and online tax as if they're the same thing, and they're really not. People have very different types of expectations of privacy depending on where they're. where they're putting something in how many followers they have sometimes. A few occasions when I've needed to quote a tweet for an article I'll try to pick people that have above a certain number of followers to quote, because if somebody's got like ten twenty thousand followers, they're not really expecting. Their tweets are private. Way As somebody who has like under a hundred rise like I'm not gonNA embed a tweet from somebody who has like under one hundred followers on twitter I'm media less their public figure, you know. If you're a politician, you should know better. Even if no one's following you, but you know there's this sort of tension like. Is this person public figure? Are they trying to like make their name in a public sphere? does that make them more available? I think actually wikipedia has a fairly good. Set of guidelines for should someone be making should should there be an article made for somebody and in some cases they say look if someone's not trying to be a public figure then. Details of their life even if they're publicly available may not be necessary for us to report on a wikipedia articles about them rank. There's also other types of ethical concerns around studying publicly available twitter conversations, and that big group of data and I'm thinking. In terms of marginalized groups that may be speaking in a certain way to protect themselves. There's definitely a lot of queer communities that develop their own language, and so that they can communicate and share themselves in some respect, but also feel safe from the other people who may know who they are in real life and be able to connect those the username with the quote. Unquote real person In order to keep themselves safe. And, so there's I'm assuming also. Some ethics wrapped up at around. If we start talking about an exposing these signals more widely, that are interesting and currently being used in the world, we could also inadvertently put people at danger. Yeah and I mean. That's I mean a one of the reasons why I decided to not do like Oh, you know. Here's a chapter about black twitter or something of like. You know I did did some reading about that, but I. What I found is that there were some critiques by Black Scholars about the kind of the whole concept of black twitter, and you know this is an area where this one particular group of twitter users has this type of hyper scrutiny on their actions that like many other twitter users don't have. And, maybe they shouldn't be considered this whole other things, so it's like Oh, that's that's actually very interesting, and there's a tension between saying okay. You know a lot of words. Do enter the sort of you know white straight mainstream media. Because they get appropriated for marginalized communities, but I. don't need to make that cycle appropriation happen any faster by my own intervention by saying. Hey, here's this cool word. Should all still from? This marginalized group like that's that's not a part of that cycle wanting to participate in if a word has already crossed over and. You know the mainstream. Candies are already aware of it and. You know by assumption. The groups that were that initially started with have decided that it's. It's passing our. It's not something you know. It's something that that you know. People are that people outside of the community are aware of and so they aren't using it in the same sort of coded way then. You know that's. That's the thing that can still happen without me but I don't need to make it happen any faster by saying Oh let me go become a voyeur in this community just so that I can kind of report on them for a more mainstream audience. That's not something that that sort of sits right with me. and I think in that case if you're going to do, someone's going to do a research on a particular community and how they use the Internet. I'd WanNa see them. Be a member of that community in have closer ties to. How people are thinking about this and how to do that in a responsible way to people who are members of that community. Yeah, this is reminding me of a conversation. I had a couple of years ago on this podcast talking about Getting DNA from indigenous in American Indian groups for studies that would help them or help. help understand an illness that was traveling around does not your community right, and and a lot of cases, the the tribes of the band's gave it gave the samples willingly for an understood set of reasons, and then the researchers went, and took those repositories of DNA swabs, and then did a whole bunch of other studies later on things like the prevalence of schizophrenia in American Indian bands, and they were like whoa no. No that is not cool, and because we study things especially when we study things that we are not part of we miss things in it. We bring in our own assumptions. We bring our own biases and the idea of studying an area of twitter that I am not an inclusive member of feels voyeuristic and prone to assumption and bias in the same way that those medical studies did I mean understanding schizophrenia definitely something that we should try and do, but the way it was done with so tone deaf and so. So non understanding of the way that that information would be perceived more broadly and I think there's some of that quicksand here as well when we talk about voyaging and looking at the the body of data and trying to pick it apart and understand it. It's interesting and I think there are people who can and should do that kind of work, but we should be careful. Who Does that work and why? And also think about you know. What are you know because there are existing scholars in in communities that were not part of who are trying to amplify certain types of messages outside of those communities. So how can an outsider amplify those messages of people who have been studying this area? So there's this article in teen. Vogue called. We need to talk about digital. Walk face in reaction. Gifts by Lauren Michele Jackson, and it's an article that I site a lot because I think it's an example of. This case of Trying to amplify what people actually doing a particular community rather than saying. Oh, I'M GONNA GO ENTER AND BE VOYEUR and report on what I find interesting and the articles about People in general, especially people who aren't black white people people of other backgrounds. Using disproportionately black entertainment figures in their reaction gifts. You know to convey something like rolling your eyes clapping hands up eating popcorn. These types of various things he will do as actions and Jackson links this concept of the theatrical and of heightened emotion emotiveness to do things like minstrel shows and like the. A law of stereotype that have existed for hundreds of years in American culture. And say you know like this is a problem, and you should be looking at your gifts and seeing if you're using people who don't look like you. Why are you doing that? and. What are you actually convey? You're not being somehow like we're leaking inclusive. If you're a white person who's using a a black Avatar online, even if you're not using it to represent. To claim to represent yourself presently it's. You know it's it's this problem. And I think after that article came out I, definitely shifted how I used my gifts, and I noticed other people shifting there, but every so often. They're still somebody who encounters it again as like Oh. Wait, actually this is important, so I think trying to amplify work like that and not trying to say you know. I'm I'm going to go into this community and report on what I think is interesting there or try to. Amplify concerns that people had inside the community rather than try to report on interesting things for a a mainstream culture to consume from it is a is a more ethical stance to take it a research agenda level, absolutely I. Definitely agree that we should be pointing at people who have a better understanding of what the actual usage of their of of that language of the intention behind that language, where it's come from, and also how it's been misused or misappropriated, because that is definitely something that as a white woman, I will just miss a lot of. Those are my biases, and those are the biases within the system that we live in, so it's it's really important to point at those at at people who are doing that work from within a community or at least were close to the community. Yeah I think it's it's interesting 'cause. I get a lot of You know media trying to. To say Oh, you Internet language, therefore, can you? Can you quote on this new social media word and I'm like I don't think this one's a social media word I? Think this is a word that like. That why people are are appropriating for black people right now, and that's that's not something. That's my area of expertise like you need to to find somebody who's who has better expertise than I do they're not going to claim that like every single new word is an Internet word. For Sure Gretchen, it has been so great talking to you and I thoroughly enjoyed the book. It is both really interesting and highly entertaining. Thank you so much for joining me today. What for having me and if you want to learn more about Gretchen McCulloch, we have links as per usual for you to click in. The show notes for this episode which you can find on our website science for the people dot ca thanks for listening and we'll see you next time on science for the people. Science for the people is listener supported. You can find us on Patriot, where you can support us with monthly donations. In any amount, your support keeps US afloat and able to keep making great new episodes, and we thank you for it. The show was produced by Rochelle Saunders and edited by Ryan Bromsgrove. We get help with special projects from Kale Myers. Our theme song was written and recorded by facto pattern, and its title is binary, consequence. The show was hosted by Bethany. Brookshire and he has rea-, Marian, kill Gaur and me Michelle Saunders.

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From the Archives: Why CMOs Should Listen to Creatives

Confessions of a Marketer

14:46 min | 1 year ago

From the Archives: Why CMOs Should Listen to Creatives

"Episode seventeen of confessions of a marketer is music to my ears. It's about why CMO's listen to their creative teams. Mark read Edwards, welcome back. We have Alex wither CMO of emotion. Now, affirm the provides workflow management for marketing and creative teams and he believes that his CMO collie should listen to their creatives more. We'll get to the great chat in just a moment. Recording episodes faster than ever in the next few weeks will have easy cater CMO David Mayes woman onto chat about Martin, professor. Bob McCulloch onto chat about the next generation of marketers got discussions about the psychology of marketing data in marketing, and VC's and marketing in the works should be fun onto today's episode we recorded a short time ago at March seventh twenty eighteen court at just about an hour ago. I wanted to package it up and get it to you as quickly as possible. So why should see him owes listened to create? Well, the task Alex whether's Alex withers, it's good to have you on confessions of a marketer, welcome. So most CMO's align with sales product or other functions. But you assert the lining with creative makes more sense. Why is that? I think the challenges and is an important point tonight that it's not an either role. We've just assume owes go better over the loss, ten years aligning with all sales on because there's a an incredible amount of pressure for a CMO to be credible and successful in their role, and they need to rely with revenue, and be more data driven. So being a better pawn, it's a sales enables them to be more credible partner at the strategic table. The challenges that, that any covers one angle of weld and see him. I was considered themselves to be quite rightly for a lot of reasons coal industry GIC center of any organizational compensation. And if you wanna do that you've gotta look in multiple directions. And I think that. Too often in a loss years was look to the kind of lower down the funnel to the revenue end of the business is opposed to looking up the funnel to how they can build a brand, for example, being data driven and lining with sales might buy you credibility being more. Product driven, is what we're trained to do is marketers because that means we have a customer first mentality, but creativity and through and awareness, and brand, equity and all the things that are coal to the marketing trade off being left behind a little bit. And I think it's time that we can't afford to not pay attention to the relationship with sales, but we have to go back to our coal trade of, how do we create and sustain amazing brands through creativity. So were there particular skills in the creative area that you found have been really valuable to the Sam. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think that the creative is more pure in their role. All is interesting. We've been working with the IBM design team, and I did a keynote speech in Austin a few months ago, our focus exchange of end of design leaders, and it was a great day. Because awful, the content we got to go around the designs GDR's, interestingly, they don't even allow the word creative to be tanked anyone's job title, because it insinuates everyone else is not creative. Right. And I think that it's really important for us all to remember, the we have to be created through the organization, but strong creativity. From the traditional creative team allows you to few things right? Well, it gets you better our ally on every dollar spent. There is no doubt that if you don't allow quality to suffer new hold quality in high regard in your marketing machine that you'll get that are open rates. Click through rates. Better engagement rights spontaneous awareness schools, you'll be able to punch about your budget. Wait so Willie's. Wavering proud when we go into some of the big trade shows in the creative. Well is I know my team on creativity will mean every dollar. We spend on event, as Leeds also will generate more traffic and more y than any other vendor the show because we put so much attention on creativity. So, you know, the skills and driving more are alive for the same Dulles and, and improving time to market, because they understand brands if the creative get a brand, and they do live in every day than they can turn work around foster without letting quality SAFA and they maintain Brian consistency. Brand is a key CMO responsibility. And one of the things I found is that some of the strongest advocates for the brand are in the creative area. They're, they're usually more attuned to the brand, and they're better brand guardian sometimes than Br. Brand managers. Why do you think that is what we mentioned earlier, the purity of the creative role? The whole idea of notion of God yet. Right. Let's look at it as parents, right lesson. The moment they are more consistent and moment. Sure in how they approach things around the brand, I'm not going to tell you, the, the bending to revenue is the dockside of the full, because that would make me not to get my C would agree with that. It's all about revenue at the end of the day, end the call him line, but as marketers, we can be tempted, sometimes to grab hold of the latest technology latest outlet and be inconsistent in a brand because as a one off it will generate through, it will generate more engagement, it will generate better results. But when you stitch together twenty of those on selected moments and all of a sudden, you don't have a brand, and the some of the pause does not goal haul in is, is very important. That we as marketers, don't get tempted to sacrifice brand quality rates of quality, just full unrelated. Quick winds and creative teams a great publis. And sometimes that can seem to open the clouds, but a CMO's think is very important that we listen to and respect that opinion because the ones who will be stronger consistent guardians of the brand. Just wanna take a moment to tell you about Rev dot com. I do a lot of interviews here on my podcast and also in my day job as a marketer. I talked to a lot of people I take notes, but most of the time they're incomplete and miss important things. So I usually record the interviews, but even when you record an interview you still need to transcribe it. Right. I've tried everything in an attempt to find the perfect combination of speed accuracy, and affordability and transcriptions. And I think I've found perfection in Rev dot com. I use it to transcribe. -cribe all of my interviews, and it's accurate fast and went me tell you, it's affordable. So whether you're doing us, a research have your own podcast or YouTube channel, and you want to add SEO value to your site, or maybe you want to write a book, Rev dot com is the right solution for you. You'll gain insights you never thought of, and you'll save the time it takes to transcribe. And right now to let you try it for yourself. Revved dot com, is offering a ten dollar coupon for first time users just visit Rev dot com slash blog slash confessions. That's Rev dot com slash blog slash confessions. All right back to the show. Right. And I've seen in doing visual identity projects. I've presented to CMO's and couple of them say, well, I'm not really creative. So I, I don't really know what I like. And then you bring them into the process. They become a creative. It's an interesting transformation, when they realize that everybody has that, gene, it just may not be that developed. I love that and totally agree this market, as you know, we, we went into this trade. I mean, there's lots of different ways to arrive at any dried, right? But I came straight from college. I did marketing and business goals. Specialize in marketing, and went to the Pepsi graduate program. So I am about it as core kind of Moctar impure, Mike career is gets of always being a passionate Marketa. I one of the reasons is I love brands and brands thrive in creativity. So it's not. With disconnected from the creed will there's just this pressure to be more data driven running more for through Microsoft excel and PowerPoint, and we all through adobe creative cloud. And I think we've got to remind also the we do have that creative, gene through different solutions. And of course, you know, with us, we have a workflow solution you allow marketers and crates to be collaborative together. And that collaboration wisdom of crowds create better results. So, you know, there is an inherent creative, gene, as you say, undeveloped all Dolan's, it might be because you may have had it. But we've just been trained to suppress it in excel spreadsheets right? Reengage with, with our creative honors. And that's, that's an interesting thing that it is a partnership. It's a collaboration. I know in my career, that's when it gets fun as when there's a collaboration, it's not just the creative team. I'm coming into present an idea to a stone faced group of executives that they are part of the presentation as well. That's right. And upon his shit. We spend so much time to see him is working on the SLA the, the service level agreement with sales on. How do we hand off the lead? What is a marketing qualified lead? What is the sales falsified late? And what is that, that very strict? I'm handshake. We have with sales will, I would suggest that we need to have just a strong and respected handshake with on creative on this. If we as mock it is all going to spend the time to brief them effectively. How do we expect great web to come out mazing machine, if we don't collaborate that it with them on feedback, and give them feedback? They can action buses frustration feedback this no specific. And how do we expect them to, to refine and get campaigns out to mock it? So we do need to focus on that. Punish it with creative. It is upon. Ship, you'll see a lot more creative teams moving away from creative services in not a service arrive and to a degree. You know, you see this battle between all the in house agencies, not in house agencies, and I think they truly out business pot as they sit in the coal process of the business. Justice strongly as marketing product marketing sales product teams. Are you name it are important part of the jigsaw? Right. So you've obviously done a lot of thinking about this. So what are a few lessons? You've learned as a CMO that you think other marketers should take to heart. I think that we need to do a better job of understanding creative teams and pauses. I think too often, we can treat them as just agency and then that can unravel pretty quickly into. They just a vendor. I've never seen strong work come out of a client vendor relationship. I've seen stronger come out of a client pond early. Nations ship. And I was told that right from the start when I went to work for the financial times, and my CMO time was X Guinness guy. And he had a very collaborative approach to agency management used them as atro- extension of the team. So you wanna make sure you'll spending time with the creative team understanding that will understanding their process just like you do it any other department, you can't go, you know, would you as a CMO dead will cover the sales team? And go will you just close business? You gonna woke up to your sales development team in say, I just need you guys to make make Kohl's. I one hundred Kohl's today, that's not inspirational is probably not the right idea, you need to focus on the design outputs is the stone. Just tell the creative team guys, you got to be quick, you taking along on this. He told me to have it by tomorrow. And, and I don't have it yet you've got to really folk. Focus on the output. You'll looking voyages, great work, which requires a respected process and it requires a collaborative partnership. So invest the time to understand that. Well, just as you would go on sales goals, and good sales meetings when the stand that will this has been inspirational. Alex, thanks for being a guest here on confessions of a market. No, it's a pleasure to great shower. I'm really thrilled to be here is really fun topic on the I kid lacks lyrical long times. Thank you for hearing me, and they know is over my see my peers outlet, that's make this the year where we build stronger ties to operated office, wonderful. Thanks, alex. I really want to thank Alex for being a guest, great distillation of the value of creatives to the CMO, so spread the word. Coming up over the next several weeks, you'll have easy cater CMO David Mayes Lomond onto chat about more tech and professor, Bob McCulloch onto chat about the next generation of marketers, and I've also got great discussions about the psychology of marketing data in marketing, and VC's and marketing all in the weeks ahead. So stay tuned. This episode of confessions of a market was written produced edited by yours. Truly t Jordan avai class productions wrote the theme music confessions of a market, visit trademark of read Edwards, go-between can this episode is copyright twenty eighteen I'm Mark read. It words cenex time.

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Ed McCullough on Lunar Colonization

American Antigravity

00:00 sec | 7 years ago

Ed McCullough on Lunar Colonization

"I'm Tim Ventura from American gravity, and today we're joined by Ed McCulloch to discuss lunar and space colonization. Ed is an associate fellow at the American Institute for `Aeronautics Astronaut and the former chairman of the I aa Space Colonization Technical Committee and board of Trustees at the university space research. Association he's also formerly the section each chairman of the. State. Conference which focused on innovative approaches to colonizing space. We'll ed thanks for joining us. I met you back at the State Conference in two thousand six and my impression was that you'd really assembled a Dream Team of visionaries on space colonization there. Can you tell us what staff meant to you and how it fits into the larger picture of emerging research into space? Lunar Colonization. well, stay no longer exists in the form that it was in when you first met me. Essentially, what has happened is it's actually modulated into something that's smaller and It's being carried on by gentleman named Palmer at At the time there were five different symposiums and conferences going on, it's safe one of which was the symposium on space colonization. The largest ever got was up to think seventeen sessions. And at that point, the actual conferences stop not because of us but because. The University of new, Mexico I decided to change their policy on the conference and the funding Cetera. So that's the reason why that particular conference shut down but I would say basically that it was actually very good conference, we had phenomenal attendance everyone symposiums. We had for our long plenty aries that do a lot of attention and I think that. At that point we were able to get many very qualified presenters to come and talk on a mini mini subjects. We even had a lot of representation by NAFF at our in our plenary and end and a Lotta, the actual sessions that we had. So from my point of view that was sort of like a high point in the space colonization. Steve to is carrying on some of the propulsion research that was underway are they also covering space colonization? Space Colonization and It's my understanding that really very big a safe to We've been going to typically I aa conferences like the space conference in joint propulsion conference and things like that. But they was the largest madison got to be big enough. That was turning into a problem for a lot of people because what they wanted to do is they wanted to actually get to all of the. Presentations but you know once you have a enough, then it's not possible because a lot of them are going on at the same time. Now, I understand that this research also continuing like one example would be your work for. NYACK. Is that something you can talk about at all? yes. Essentially there's a night contact that's been one by team that I've been working on. So I can talk a little bit about it but essentially, what it is is a proposal to start building things like neil comedies and bigger but the axel approach to building them as different in that, we use robotics and autonomy and standardized techniques using ten segregate and other things that are going to allow us to get very large scale structures building space. This would, of course, also relate to space solar power satellites and other things like that plus. Ships. CYCLING SHIPS TO GO TO MARS and CETERA. Well now that you've mentioned O.`Neil Colonies, the best place be for that first space call me would that be on the moon or would it be analog range point space station I would say that the first place to send it from my point of view and not everybody agrees, of course, is on the mood itself. The reason for that is that You're there in the gravity field and it's easier to build something if there's an opera down plus raw materials right there plus the ability to actually easily move things around and and put them into alignment center. So it's easier to build in the gravity field. But that doesn't mean you can't do it in space because you just have to use different techniques. And so the big advantage on the moon is that raw materials are there and the they processing plants, our local CETERA. Well. If we begin with the Moon, is there any reason after that four L. point space stations like maybe a staging areas for exploration deeper into the solar system or or does lunar base pretty much eliminate the need for those? If you're going to be going to places deep branded at solar system you want to actually start from in places that are not far from the solar potential. earth inside of a gravity well. At. The point where the the gravity, well, the earth stops and merges with the gravity well of the fun. When you're on the sense gravity well, and not really affected by ear if you're on what's called the solar potential reputational potential. So in order to go somewhere in the solar system, you have to get on the sun's gravitational well and the closer you are to it the easier it is to drift away from the earth and start your journey to somewhere else in the solar system. And so I would say that the good places to be are at the the Earth Moon l one or l two because those things rolling about one point eight mega-deals kilogram to get to the solar potential or at l four and l five even Berry yet is if you're at the Earth Sun. I at one, forty, nine, L. to. Those places where you can actually build things There are lots of assets that are already there and it doesn't take very long to actually get a raw materials or partially finished materials from the moon to those locations Oh. Okay. So in that case, then the moon would actually be the staging here to to move things to the point. Well. Yes. Essentially, what you WanNa do is you want to actually have. As, much of your manufacturing facility in one place as possible so that you can dig up regular and make what they call mill stock materials. Well, it'd be called dot materials essentially lows on the moon, I? Don't know if. Everybody's hardware stores are called bows, but this essentially a big hardware store where you get building materials. And then you would be able to centralize a manufacturing CETERA chemical process. You know things like that to produce these modules and produce the propellant or to have the real gun, whatever it is going to take actually get it off to the moon on his way to the the assembly point of like building an aircraft carrier built all the modules in the shops have been you you lift them up and you move them over to the dried up and you lower them down and welcome in place. So l one L to various range voice would be the dried act now. The shots would be on the moon. Well, you've talked about the colonies on the moon starting with underground habitats and having a dome that would be built above them, right? Yes and the reason for that is that why you're there, you need to protect yourself from the radiation. and. So you need to actually build some place that has radiation protection, and after you go several meters underground, you know radiation is almost nothing and the temperature variation is almost nothing. And so it would be useful to build a stable shelter underground on the that doesn't mean you have to stay in the shelter. you be in habitats on the surface. But. If a very Larry Joh- Solar Proton event were to occur then you can retreat into the shelter to protect yourself until it was over. I actually wrote a a a a presentation about building giant Dome City on the moon and the set it up. So you could actually built all your. Your shops, all of your. What would you call it? Chemical processing facilities and all your you know habitats underground. So that you would have a place to go If for instance I there was an event, the damage, the dome. And you'd could save the quite a the atmosphere as I would say actually most of the atmosphere by using cry oh kind of. To convince the atmosphere through apertures and save it. but you need to go somewhere if if you have a major event causes you to be depressurize dome. That's another reason why came up with this idea of the city and also. Instead of having doors and things you know like APERTURES in the Dome, which do is to get outta the dome. You simply go underneath and take the subway to some other. Puerto where you can out on the surface. So those are the ideas that I had and I was describing how would actually build a city that big and how you get in and out of it Now in terms of the Dome itself, you've described building dome twenty five miles diamond or that's up to five thousand feet high in the center but enclosed in s class that's only seventeen inches thick. Can you describe a bit for me? S Glass. Is this type of glass that is strong steel and as described the s class there and I said that what would be required to build a saying something that's as strong as ef glass that has seventeen inches stick. The only issue is you can't build. then ask glass dome seventeen inches thick just from construction happens but you can build other things that are equally strong, which is the the final form of the domes that I came up with but I was trying to figure out whether it was physically possible. To even do this and the thing that prompted me to do this I. Took them. got a NASA photographed been passed around in mini briefings and showed this dome city over I guess it was shock within crazy. And I looked at it and I kinda skeptical as to whether you could do it. So I sat down one day start proving that it couldn't be done. And in the process I found out that it could be done. And that it could be done. If you had magically appear a dome made out of s class that was a seventeen inches. now, that didn't say. How you would protect the domes. Because it would be exposed to, you know like micrometeorites or rocks falling on it or whatever NFL, one single glass dome, then the whole thing would be destroyed. So really what you wanted to do was build it out of facets, which is what I came up with. Finally s class is unbelievably strong, but it cannot maintain his strength as it gets moisture on it. and. So you would have to find a way to protect the s class from waste. You're on the inside in for Mike you know chunks of ice, hitting it from the outside of center, and so it's come up with something that's heavier than ask meaning that you know is much thicker than seventeen inches and the actual mass of that can balance the upward pressure of the atmosphere. And it's made in facets so that you could actually remove a facet and replace it. and also if you're making it out of fastest surface of a sphere, then you can actually have just a few actual tiles that you would make. That would actually tell the entire surfaces. So not really manufacturing a bunch of different things it's just maybe One or two different privacy manufacturing and just replicate that you know. Values are millions of times in order to actually make the dough. And I guess that brings us to self organizing systems, which is something that you described where the Dome might actually be built by machines from smart materials that might have equivalent of bar codes on them. Well. The way that works is that you know you got two choices either you use artificial intelligence and smart machines in very immobile agile robot. So yeah US astronauts adventures, and if you're going to build something this big you can't even have ironworkers. You need to actually have something that can put many of these things together. without risking people's lives. and doing very quick efficient manner. you need to have offensively robots making more robots or like in that Disney's version of the sorcerer's apprentice where you keep chopping up the brooms and it keeps making bins. and you have those things put the systems together and that doesn't really take a lot of trouble. It just says that you need to have like a navigation system you need to have very good metrology You need to have very good robots or agile that can climb and and easily Terry things quite heavy and Lang them up quickly and I are both or weld them together. So when you look at that, that is a self organizing system. What you do is you just provide information in the per particles named the robots and the pieces. Go in and build this down and decide of self organizing systems goes all the way down to the laser is that you would put in your communication devices using wavelength, routed all optical networks, and things like that that are actually provide the basis for the artificial intelligence. Even those things can be built with self organizing. Chemical Systems Oh. Okay. So it truly is kind of a self organizing self replicating factory. Then now you described viral structures as well, which might be a nanotech variation this idea, right? Yeah. The the viral structures referred to something that came out of cal poly Pomona After seeing my briefing, they came up with the idea that you would have. Once again, a bunch of small robots with essentially have that have IP addresses. And fill. Every component is going to go in as an actual Ip address and you can send information to and say where it's supposed to go and the robots can talk to it and find out where it's supposed to go and what orientation it needs to have and you just sit. In front of a monitoring, you watch, don't system build itself. Okay you need to add to it is the energy. You need add all materials. And, the actual structural form namely where the places the things are supposed to go into space, what they're supposed to connect to a wet, the structure supposed to be in various stages of the construction because you just can't construct a dome, you have to actually build a system of support to them while being like fabricated and went suits is fabricated. You take these other systems down there like scaffolding. Yeah. Well now once you get together I guess the next piece there is putting an atmosphere and. I understand that one of the difficulties there is that the moon doesn't have enough nitrogen, right? When I actually wrote that briefing the nitrogen was suspected to be somewhere around one hundred posts per million and when you consider how much atmospheres required for a like that and what the actual concentrations of the nitrogen in Iraq you find out you have a very serious problem. That building, the Dome I is a certain level of difficulty but finding the atmosphere is several orders of magnitude worse. than the problem building the dome. OHKA and. Didn't you think some people who understand these things well, we're going to have to go somewhere where you can get an atmosphere. So we go off to the moon's in the outer solar system when we come back with the nitrogen and that's the supply train. But it's going to be required. But what's happened since I wrote all that was at the L. Class actually hit them and we found out to a greater degree what was in those polar craters or in the polar regions and one of the things I was hoping for was ammonia. and. So it turns out that the concentration of nitrogen is much higher than price for million. So that problems ameliorated to a greater or lesser extent. We'd have to actually go continue to characterize the amount of a yeah. That's in the the polar craters in order to find out how much of an amelioration there is did problem. Once the atmosphere someplace I guess another component is power and you described embedding solar panels into the Dome which allows it to basically generate solar power from the Dome itself. Right yeah you can say that twenty percent of the area of the Dome could be photovoltaic panels. But other things that compete with that and so you can say, okay, ten percent of the dullness photovoltaic panels and another ten percent is like translate fevers for making the Dome into a Radio Telescope. So, essentially, you could just take the Dome area and then you could see multiply by a number of factors. That would deal with view angles too. So you could find out what your maximum and minimum power is going to be, and the idea would be to actually use some kind of storage system. Consisting of either cryogenics, which would be easiest if. She would have a very large reservoir of code material or US some type of like chemical batteries or you would use some type of. A wells. That you would actually out the been irregular. Underground. So you'd have a large reservoir essentially magma. Underground that you could use heat source to augment your tower when you had a low view factors to set. Well. With energy and with atmosphere I guess the only remaining component there this battalion of the atmosphere as well as water is that something that might be found on the moon Actually unifying water on the moon at the equator. You can take giving meter of regular. At the mooner equator and with that, you can actually generate a kilogram of water simply by heating it up what's happening is there's hydrogen absorbed onto the the particles of regular. And surface area. So high that there's quite a day maybe sixty, one, hundred, million. And there's ironside there, and if a heated up when it's been happened is the Dinesh is going to reduce the anger and oxide take the oxygen away and turn itself into staying. Off. That can be convinced and so he's going to get a kilogram of water for a cubic meter regular at the equator. Now. When you go higher and latitudes that increases say like at eighty or ninety degrees you running get by ten times. Ten kilograms of water, and then the polar craters itself based on the lunar profit. You would get thirty four times. But now he had the Al Cross date and what it says is that the place where the cross actually hit the surface of the moon, they got readings of something on the order of five point six plus or minus three percent. Wider. That means it could be anywhere from. Five Point, eight, six. Two two point six weight percent. That if he had a ton of regular ten percent of that is going to be a hundred kilograms and eight percent of that is going to be eighty kilograms water or since he would have fifty six kilograms of water for every time of regular. That's quite a bit of water more water than anybody needs. Yeah and it sounds like if you've got water, you have atmosphere and you have power, it sounds like that might be able to become completely self sufficient which I know is is something that. A lot of people are excited about given the cost of transporting anything out of the Earth's gravity. Well. Well the the water, the atmosphere and the actual structure provides you with something where you can drink. You can breathe and You have a stable environment, but you still have to eat. And you're going to need actually produce a range of plants and animals in order to have a diet that sufficient to keep you healthy and so there is the issue of sustainability that we have here and on the moon. is slightly more difficult but not impossible. The bigger habitat and you have the easier it is to actually get all those things correct. Yeah. Yeah. Well, another thing you won't be able to create with the water is propellant fuel right use solar power to create propellant out of the water, and you'd said that if mon is available, I guess that might potentially other feel sources well to designed sound accurate. The reason why you WanNa. Monia. Is you want to have a talent that will actually stay in the tank without a whole lot of trouble. When you're dealing with cry trial, Jains, you have to actually continues the. 'cause otherwise, they'll change to a gas. And so there's a lot of work that needs to done in order to keep the clouds ends in in like a good state whereas with with nitrogen, you can make a number of different types of storable propellants that will stay in a liquid form at normal atmospheric pressure is without a lot of trouble. with, refrigeration machine. So it makes it easier for us storable talents identify. JAINS ninety allows you to make the storable propellants. Oh, I, see what you mean. So so you can generate oxygen hydrogen then storing and becomes yet another energy drain on the colony and so. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Well so it makes sense also that this colony would be a lot better position than we are here on the surface of the earth to explore the solar system, right because they'd be in a shallow gravity well so Would that be kind of an incentive to develop of these colonies The Moon is two point eight mega gills per kilogram below the solar potential that means if two point megajoule. Per kilogram to your material, it will actually leave the Earth's environment. In order to do that from the surface of the earth requires sixty four mega-deals kilogram. Which is twenty times more essentially. So launching something from the moon to the solar potential is much easier to do than munching from the earth. Surface. Launching from out to. One, it's even closer to the solar potential, US around one point, eight naked jobs per kilogram. So as even easier to demolishing it from them, and so you know if you're going to be doing outer solar system work or even put scientific instruments to. Various places in the solar system you WANNA, do it from places that are close to the solar potential. The moon happens to be like a nice place to get resources. In order to do that. So that's one of the reasons I've been working on this stuff for many many years. Well now in terms of having people up there, doing work and causing the moon and stuff even if protected inside of a Dome I've heard concerns about microparticulate dust getting into suits giving air locks and ultimately potentially causing lung and respiratory issues do is that something that has been addressed here? that's something that blew up into a big problem discussed for years with Runchang you can deal with with faith. Essentially like what I'd say people weren't seeing was that the smaller it is these microbes, shards of glass, the more trouble they cause, but the more surface area they have. And you could take diffusion limited processes when you increase the surface area that increases the productivity. And glasses or they made out of silicon. Oxide. and silicon oxides are very susceptible to things that have fluorine in them. Hands toothpaste mixed in with the ceiling material and space suits and everything else and when I say toothpaste I'm just like kind of joking about something that has free fluorides that can be donated in order to destroy Silicon Matrix on this article say sixty microns it looks like an Arrow head and it's going to actually do a random want through the membrane on your spacesuit and caused it to become perforated adding anything that can donate fluorine will stops at what it'll do is it'll change the sharp pieces into things dad basically like pieces of chocolate have no sharp edges on them at all. and. So there are a number of ways to deal with the space dust and and I haven't seen any at all. In the literature that doesn't mean it exists because I haven't really like Scott been scouring literature, but you can actually deal with all that stuff chemically with almost no trouble whatever. Oh okay. Okay. Now, that's when they're outside and then when they re enter an airlock, do could they just do kind of a wash in water to take that off or would it be too difficult because the size? You can actually essentially do like wars with like. You know like Like I said was again, something that has like a much free fluorine to face I know the exact same thing essentially, what you need to do is get it off of your suit out of your bearings and other things like that and just dissolve it. Yeah that makes sense. Well, another another aspect of this is potential muscle atrophy in bone density reduction from the reduced gravity I'm wondering how much that would affect colonists benefit means it would be kind of a one way trip for people who were working on construction of the dome. I remember people won't be working on the construction. There's no touch labor for almost anything there. But the issue of the decision logical effects of gravity different from the gravity on the earth is the problem. And essentially, what needs to happen is we need to take advantage of the more advanced research that we have coming for medicine. And Physiology. So people known that this is a problem for a long time. And I actually was involved in setting up a conference at the National Academy of Science called research enable by the lunar environment and half of the The presentations there were based on ways to actually characterize ameliorate the problems associated with the adverse effects of the space environment on the human or animal muscle systems, circulatory systems, nervous systems, etc, and people can actually. Go, read those conference notes or get them off my website at Cetera, but there is a serious problem. So she hit with the the space environment namely the gravity environment with many of the body systems and it's not just humans. It's just you know for instance mammals or I don't think that for instance, it would make any difference whatever to marine life. Because they don't feel gravity anyway. Sure. Well, with all those things in place, how much do you think that the total cost approximately would be to build this lunar colony and how long do you think it would take to build? Got Thank God that it was fifteen years. it has to do with first of all types of like machines that are needed for. How many of them are needed and the the energy to goes in because she cannot produce. Anything at any rate unless you have the energy that's required to match your production. So. It means that if going to. Have a certain production rate. You have to have the energy systems that are going, allow you to do it. Now one of the things we can do is on the mound, we have a significant amount of solar power available. And you can collect that power and you can store it so that you have. The ability to have a surge pile of energy. So you can actually use more or less of the energy depending on what you're doing in a particular construction period and that the the surge capacity allows you to buffer the energy usage versus the energy accumulation from the sun. Okay so that would solve kind of construction part of it. So be about fifteen years now is there even kind of a speculative budget on what the cost might be or or is that still up in the air? if you do this correctly and we looked at this so we were planning a private lunar mission about six years ago. There are a number of different business models that allow you to do things for the earth that can actually bring in revenues, which means that once you get past a certain point, the activities the move and can be self sustaining. So you need to actually get from the initial phases to the production phase where all you're adding information. And all the manufacturing is being done using the energy you're getting from the sun so that the only really issue you have, where are you getting reagents? War, getting your you know exotic electric, parts CETERA that. You could do on the moon but may not be cost effective. and you're you're pulling these things with with supply trains coming from the earth. So the way we were looking at getting space solar power going was actually go up and set viable businesses on the mount. So very first time we in power back in the moon namely in the form of radar beams. Down ten is on the earth. Then the thing is self sustaining because you can actually pay stuff off fastened. Very, rapidly and continue to increase your production rate of energy, and that pays for everything else that you're doing on the Moon Oh. Okay. Okay. So there would be. Can't is bringing the gross world product from. Roughly, four forty, trillion dollars a year up to around eight hundred and sixty million dollars a year by selling power all around us. Bringing everybody standard of living up to RS and so you know this thing is a money making thing for everybody starting in about thirteen years. From you know a standing start to thirteen years at first light from the moon then after that everything pays for itself. Well. Can you tell me a little bit about the project that you're trying to put together to to actually realize this vision? Well what we had before was we had a number of different and this was with clouds types who used to be one of the chairman of the space colonization technical committee. He actually came up with the business model and had been working on it since around. Two Thousand and two. Of of coming up with viable businesses that you could place on the moon and makes it your data storage for instance, like having a An actual detector on the Moon Remember we're building something in Texas called the superconducting Super Collider. And the the people who benefit that where the particle physicists and if you actually go build a ten meter cube of ice on the moon, what you're going to get is be tactic that will be able tax things that happen say three or four times a year particle events that could have never been produced. on the the in Texas. Which means that that you know like superconducting supercollider didn't have enough energy to make these types of events but on the moon, you would because the cosmic rays can actually get to such detector without going through the atmosphere. and. So you would see like particle events that you can never even gotten with the superconducting supercollider which means that you could have actually saved a lot of money being the cost of the superconducting supercollider and still have gotten all that data and it's still possible. We know all this because when calls Heiss decided? Okay. We're GONNA ask you try it after with colonies on the moon and Cetera, and here are some business options. He Actually Forum something called a moon base coalition, which is hard to find on the net now, but it's still there. and point was bring in a lot of people from international locations of lot of scientists are and have them figure out what's the advantage? What could you do? That would be worth money. There were three eat meetings about three days each. One was at the national. Academy of Science at the CAT building where the National Research Council. Now. The one was in Milan Italy and the other one was in. Moscow. And all those are all the findings while those meetings are online. various places and keeps changing because people keep taking them off and putting them back on. but you know just talking to the people? Who are responsible for it? We could actually get all that information put back on the web. And it's a phenomenal amount of information on opportunities to actually use the mood for a lot of things dissolve a lot of problems. At I was involved in that the took the findings from all those meetings and we use them to make business land. we actually went to a institutional investors. And got a commitment for seven hundred and fifty million actually with seven hundred, million dollars. My role was go get the engineering teams. That could do this and go find a way to get discounts on launch vehicles. And I won't say the actual Prices but we got phenomenal discounts on launch vehicles and we had the best engineering team of the twentieth century on this team was from what was called the space skunkworks. It was managed by migration and Pete, warden they did the D. X Delta Eighty one, eighty, one, eighty, three to low SAF misty. CLEMENTINE DC X. and. Did those things in very short periods of time and very low cost? One of the things that made it possible for them to do. It was to operate in the bags with environment and dispense with the normal nonsense that you see in aerospace Management Cetera. And have everybody operating without a badge. So people can talk to each other and a lot of the social ills of like operating a big company guy and they were able to get phenomenal results. The results were so good that the Russians complain to the United States government that having this kind of research going on was destabilizing in the Cold War and so Clinton shut them down. But when I was transferred into Boeing from Rockwell through McDonnell Douglas, I was bored right into the space skunkworks. that's how I learned about them and found out. How well they performed? CETERA, and those are the first people I went to in order to find engineers do this. mission. Oh. I would lunar mission was canceled because of politics but you know thinking about starting it up again, I might be able to pull this off Either you have the money and no engineering people or you have the engineers though money. So like right now, we're in a situation where we can actually get the money and there's no longer limitations on it. we actually our business plan had gotten you know seven, hundred and fifty. Sees me seven hundred million in commitments with the stipulation which I really won't go into but the stipulation didn't work out. The stipulation should have gone to the ballistic missile, defense? Organization but not. NASA. So that's the reason why we didn't do sure. Sure. Well advert we're almost out of time for today, but I'd like to thank you again for joining us I can't tell you how much I appreciate your joining us discussing this and. If People WanNA learn more about your work they can visit your website at explaining the big picture dot com CA. Can you tell me a little bit about the website and what's on it? Essentially has quite a bit of information about bay solar power. And issues associated with power period, and it has most of the briefings today got cleared to give a when I was working at Boeing. I have my resume and it has like a bunch of links. Again. That's explaining the big picture dot com and Ed thank you for your time. All right. Thank you very much.

US Ed McCulloch chairman Space Colonization Technical C NASA NYACK depressurize dome Larry Joh- Solar Proton NAFF Dream Team Palmer University of new Steve madison Tim Ventura neil