14 Episode results for "Matthew Boyle"

The Perks And Perils Of Plant Parenthood

1A

35:23 min | 1 year ago

The Perks And Perils Of Plant Parenthood

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply this is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington. Ask a twentysomething or thirtysomething what their ideal house or -partment might have in it and you would get a variety of answers of big screen. TV large bookshelf floor to ceiling windows increasingly though they might just ask for house plants sales of plants are up nearly fifty percent five zero percent over the past few years and many businesses are crediting young consumers in social media for that why are so many folks across demographics entering Implant parenthood we ask you and here's some of what you left in our inbox hello. My name is Victoria and I'm calling from Philadelphia. Pa I I've had a lifelong love the fair with house plants. I grew up in a home filled with them. Grandparents had plenty of them as well and we had backyards filled with tomato and vegetable plants dance and I went through a period of time in my life where for eleven years I could not sustain a single house plant in my dark little apartment and it was heartbreaking heartbreaking. Now I live in light and airy apartment and I have Philip Bender in Xanadu. That is my favorite plant. The ball had it for eleven years. It's huge food and just being around house. Plants is just like literally oxygen and life for me. Joining us here in studio is Amanda the mcclements the founder and creative director of little leaf a plant store here in DC Amanda. Welcome to one and thank you for having me joining us from Npr New York is Ryan lead the CO founder and CEO of rooted a plant store based in New York Ryan. Welcome just going to be an Toronto Darrell. Chang is behind the blog house plant the journal. He's also the author of the New Plant Parent Daryl. Thanks for being with us. Thanks for having me. I'd love to know how you all came to your various. Relationships with plants. Lance or listeners told us about a lot of their plant experiences. Here's what Emmy in Charlottesville said I and a House plant lover to me. They're like a part of my family. I got the I love from. My Mom and my grandmother taught me how to care for them. in particular. I have a house plant is an airplane plant. Ed Spider Plant and it came from my mother-in-law the woman that I never met because she passed away before my husband and I were married and my mother-in-law take little sprout links with Ed and give them to people and they each had to name the plant we have Edwin and when I taught high school I would take little seedlings or cuttings of EDWINA and cultivate. Give them to my students when they graduated. Do they have a clean clean air plant in their dorm rooms. I also have a very special jade plant that my husband and I got the weekend we got engaged and one night I left it out and it got too cold and I thought that I'd lost it and then found another little seedling sprawling stashed away somewhere and I've cultivated. It now is biggest once wise. That's a great story. Thank you very much for sharing that Amanda. Let me start with you you. How did you come to love plants shore so I like some of your callers mentioned grew up in a house full of plants. My mom was one of those hippies making maccarone a plant hangers and cultivating an indoor jungle and I had been running a home boutique here in Washington. DC called salt and sundry and we kept hearing from customers. They wanted to buy the plants that we had on the floor and we weren't at the time selling plants so we opened little leaf back in the winter of twenty sixteen and I was really looking to create a a place where you could buy a house plant and a boutique environment with more one on one attention a little bit more personal service and not having to drive out to a big box store. What was it about plants Amanda that appeal to you. I mean I've always loved plants. I will say my mother would probably correct me say that there was a period where like your first caller I was having some sad plant situations in my house but I've learned to live so sad plant situations which I'm sure the other guests can can speak to you but It's something that brings a lot of life to space and an end plants or a really important part of creating a beautiful home. How many do you have personally personally living or dead. No I'm just kidding I probably have you know there's probably twenty or so on my first floor. A lot of those are smaller little CACTI and succulents instead. I have in my kitchen window. larger plants you know probably three or four big ones worst experience of learning to grow plants been like you know it's trial and error. I think think we hear from a lot of customers. They come in. They say I don't have a green thumb and I don't like this idea that some people have thumb and some people don't I think we all kill plants plants and it's a part of getting to know how to care for plants so I think people shouldn't be intimidated and literally always trying to take that intimidation factor out of it because you know it's trial and error and you'll have successes and failures Ron. What about you. How did you come to be interested in plants. Yes going up. It didn't have a ton of plants. It's at home but I I was raised by my parents in the outdoors from northern California and so you know just spend all my time you know in the Sierra Nevada's semi just even in the Santa Santa Cruz mountains and really grew up just hiking backpacking climbing fishing and just really being immersed in the outdoors doors and when I moved to New York you know to be honest I was I was a little depressed because I missed that connection to that outdoor world that that that spurns creativity and happiness happiness and I want to recreate that in my apartment and so my co-founder and I when we moved in together we decked out our place in plants Lance but you know in two or three months actually ended up killing a lot of them. You know we didn't know how to take care of them. We didn't know it was a light first conversation. there was just a lot the whole urban gardening experience that we just didn't know and there wasn't a lot of information that was quickly and easily accessible for us and so that was kind of the Genesis of why and how we started rooted is really just to connect reconnect our generation people like me and K to nature and so that's kind of my background and you know. I really appreciate with Amanda. Just said about the isn't really distinct about you have a green thumb and and then you have it forever. I probably have fifteen plants in my room and and most of them are living but there's definitely one or two that are on the cusp of of death year Darrell. What about you. How did you get into plants has a very similar story. in that. I think in my earlier childhood I was mostly involved goal outdoor gardening. My Mom taught me everything about how to garden and grow vegetables and then when we moved to a new of suddenly bigger place it had some wonderful skylight and so she kind of told me why don't we decorate involved with plants and she also added Oh but but I'm really bad with plants and kind of confused me because I was like well. If you're so good with outdoor gardening what's different vote indoors right and so it kind of became a little bit of a little project and challenge for me to sort of try and understand it and that's kind of how it started and then you know I I would look up information as any millennial it on Google and found the same sort of a lack of information or or lack of depth of information and so that's where host journal started it was literally just a blog that was to document and journal about the plants that I had and you know as you as you grow a little bit in terms of followers people will start to question because they have the same plans and then they start asking questions and you know after I could probably safely say thousands of questions one starts to wonder like what what is it about playing house poincare here in particular that that is that is maybe not well explained or things to maybe overemphasize versus not emphasized enough and so that's sort of what spurred spurred me on to to just write in a more maybe like critical and scientific manner of plants and and that's kind of how the book The new plant parents like my book came came to be. I'd love to know more about how many plants you have but let me play a quick voicemail from Dale from South Carolina the WHO called in and told us how many plants she has. My name is Dale. I'm calling from Lancaster South Carolina and I'm calling about your question concerning house plants dance and I have to tell you I have close to thirty house plants in my two thousand square foot house and it seems to keep the house fresher without having the smell l. of dogs of which I have five and they also give me comfort caring for them. I can't say enough about having house plants in your life because they do make the world and your life in general a whole lot better well. Thanks very much for sharing that with us there. What's your plant population. Look it's really hard to. I don't think I've ever actually counted because just basically every spot in front of the window has a plant there so I put an estimate maybe fifty fifty five zero plants five zero. Yeah we have plenty of people sharing their stories with us about their love of plants. We'll get into as many of them as we can. As we continue tinged with Amanda mcclements of Little Leaf Ryan Lee of rooted and Darrell Chang of House Plant Journal. I'm Joshua Johnson and you're listening to one A. From W. Amu and NPR support for one and the following message come from American Express Express. You've got big ideas for your business but figuring out how to make them happen can be a real challenge well. The answer may be simple as American Express financing solutions. They have over four thousand specialists who can help find the right solution for your business. Chat with them today to see if you're eligible so you can get your plans up and running being the powerful backing of American. Express don't do business without it terms apply learn more at American Express. Dot Com slash business what happens when Ronald McDonald walks into a poor immigrant neighborhood and south of fruits and sets off a super sized revolution the story story of how a company slogan to sell shakes and Burgers became a rallying cry for workers in France. That's on NPR's rough translation and this is one A. I'm Joshua Johnson. Were talking houseplants with Ryan. Lee of rooted Amanda mcclements of Little Leaf and Darrell Chang the author of the new plant parent. I wonder if there's one big misconception that you have to dispel for people who come into your shop. Is there one thing that a lot of people I think they know about house plants but they really don't I would say it's. It's really that misconception that you're either good at it or you're bad at it like we talked about before for that. You either have a green thumb or you don't Ryan what about you. Is there one big misconception. You find that many people have yeah. Let's say the prioritization of of light versus water. I think I think there is a majority group of people who think like Oh. I got a plant. How often do I need a wardrobe and yes. That's a key step in in nurturing and growing that plant but actually it's a light first option and a lot of the problems that arises because it's probably not getting enough or it's getting too much late like that's the thing too right if we go out in the Sun will get sunburned a lot of plans to do have those qualities and you need to put them in the right light situations to win but the first thought in most people's heads you know how often watered Emma over watering it do. I need to twice a day so I said I would say. That's a big thing that I've encountered there. What about you yeah definitely the first to enter the are excellent and I was kind of adding that the whole notion that you even think that you have total control or the plan I think is what causes people a lot of disappointment because just by the size of your windows I could probably tell you whether plant would do well and has nothing has like I to do with the light and then secondly and you know all the things that you do in your power. which is watering and fertilizing be putting at the right time? you know it's all. Kinda predicated on having good light. Let me get to a clip from two listeners who told us about the uptick in interest in plants and I want to get to that particularly with you Amanda and Ryan since you sell plants retail plants. Here's a quick clip of what they left in our inbox by Joshua. This is Carl in Charlotte when I was a little kid growing up in the early sixties he's in New Jersey. My parents received a little cock this and it came in a box. They thought it was funny. That plant would come in a box but it was a cactus. ooh Yeah you can do that so they took a little tiny cactus they put it on their window sill in the kitchen and every once in a while because cactus they gave it a little bit older and they would ask each other. You think it's growing how you think it's doing yeah. I think it's going I think it's going good and then they found out it was order facial. Oh and they laughed at each other because back in the early sixties back in San artificial plants looked artificial but this really looked real. My name is courtney and live in West Palm Beach Florida. My journey with house plants evolved from being a child of the eighties growing up in Indiana was my mother's house covered in fake ferns and ivy that collected dust and the nineties. I had the status quo hear one focused on the corner of my room with the Christmas lights wrapped around it but as gruesome my thirties in my forties I realize those fake plants were of no benefit and they are actually sprayed with toxic chemicals chemicals that were detrimental to my health and my family's house so now my house is full of real live ivy and other plant so they I pull from Nastase air pure fine list. I nurture them and take care of them. Just as I do my three little humans and my dogs and they bring us a lot of joy when you call and Courtney for sharing your stories with US Courtney. I'm from West Palm Beach. Also I bet we got the same feick is from Saint Pierre One but I am interested in Carl's comment Amanda. I mean with artificial plants. What do you think of artificial so they inherently pad or is there room for artificial. I'm laughing at his story because a confession that I have in College College. I absolutely watered roommates fake orchid and she went out of town for a couple weeks and I thought I wonder if that work it needs water and the water poured out the bottom when I poked the dirt and I realized that it was just a really good looking artificial plants so I meant well well. you know they're sure I'm not a big fan of artificial plants the other dust and and like previous caller said they don't they don't add a lot of life to space so you know I think dried plants can be a good alternative if you're looking for something that you absolutely don't have to take care of but ultimately live plants or the way to go. You're Ryan to that point. What would you recommend recommend for people. Who Want to start somewhere? They're busy. They don't have a lot of space what they're doing. They would rather not kill the plant but they feel like they're kind of inclined to because they just I just don't know how to do it. What's a good starter right. I'm just going to Echo amandas comment that I am not a supporter of the flavor fake plastic plants. you know we don't need more plastic in the world. There are also like plastic particles that get admitted that you know are the reason why you have air filtering plants that take away you know no benzine and Formaldehyde from the air because of those products and so definitely don't do that. There are a ton of plants that can work in a variety of different light situations nations in spaces that are not that high upkeep or maintenance for example like as easy plant Amanda. I'm sure you saw this. When your story two that's one one of the most resilient plants out there you water it. Maybe once every two or three weeks and it can tolerate even low amounts of light. Obviously not a bat cave corner but but you know that's one option for low light scenarios another one for highlight scenarios. If you have a ton of light rain there's aloe. There's Ella Hedgehog CACTI that only need watering once every four weeks so if you travel a lot for work or if you're jetsetter that's a perfect thing for you if you don't know what you're doing and so there's still a lot of options out there and even that you know rooted while we have a retail store. We have an online shop to in. One of our kids are bundles. If you will is called the resilient AF kit right it's it's plants that will survive in a lot of different conditions editions and so there are options for you. It's just about finding the one that works for your Light Amanda. What about people who live in kind of small less lit spaces. Maybe maybe it's like a a basement apartment or an in-law apartment someplace that doesn't have windows facing all four corners ultimately plants do need light which is something that disappoint and some people say here but they're great grow lights on the market so if you actually have a room with no light there are lights that you can plug into a wall and have a plant thrive underneath breath but otherwise you know we've mentioned the Z. Plant snake plants are probably are bestseller little leaf. They require a not a lot of alight. They're pretty happy wherever you put them and for some of these I like to say a little neglect goes a long way. Think one mistake. A lot of people make is that they love loved their plants too much and you're over watering plant. That really only needs to be watered. You know every two to four weeks so I think kind of backing off and giving them their space can be again tactic Daniel Year Darrell Darrell. What about care instructions. I mean like I said I don't know plants but it would seem that to a certain extent stint if you're cultivating the same kind of plant in the same kind of environment. Why isn't it just by the book like. How often do you have to wing it with your plants as opposed to just follow someone's instructions well? I think the one of the things that involve with instructions is that you believe that if you follow them then everything will be fine and that that's a gain of really open discussing and therefore a lot of people expectations of the plant will be oh you should always look perfect a- as long as I do this right and I think you were saying about the same environment and I really kind of big air quotes on that because nobody's windows are exactly the same size there are everybody obstructions outside. The windows are totally different and that one variable on the light means that there's a huge food variance in terms of how let's call it how productive that plant will be right and that's why you know. I wouldn't even call it a winging it. I would say that the instructions really should should be based on observation rather than just following strict rule so really. It sounds like what you're saying. is you go into it less with rules and more with with sake guidelines like general parameters and then you figure it out you adapt it for your situation. Is that it exactly exactly what are some of the best places to get some of those guidelines Atlanta other than Houseplant Journal of course where well. Actually you know when I read Journal. I don't WanNa keep you from plug in your own work. Well okay. I'll say even when you look Google and you see what's called. I would call typical plant-care instructions again if you if you look at them with the eyes of saying that these are guidelines guidelines and then you're going to do your own sort of adjustments as you work on your own time then actually all the information out there is quite good right so the best instructions though will tell you okay if it's bright indirect light and that that's a loaded word in terms of what it actually means but it just really mean closest window and make sure that the sun doesn't shine on them for too long look different nuances with that. We'll continue our conversation a minute table. Chang Ryan Leeann Amanda mcclements in a moment. We'll talk more about the business of plants and will answer one of your biggest concerns that many of you are asking about cats stay close support for NPR and the following message come from Carmax for more than twenty five years. CARMAX has made it easy to sell your car. They provide free appraisals and offers on the spot. Tarmacs will buy your car even if you don't buy there's in fact. CARMAX has bought more than eight million vehicles to learn more and schedule your free appraisal visit CARMAX DOT com. Hey there. It's Josh thanks for listening to a podcast. Please take a moment to subscribe and leave us a rating that helps other people find the show and don't forget you can catch the news roundup at the end of every week you know next year is right twenty twenty election here the news. It's only going to get crazier so join me Sam Sanders for wrap up of the week's news and culture that will not make you want to pull your hair out download and listen every weekend hand too. It's been a minute from NPR back. Now to our conversation with Ryan Lee Amanda mcclements and Darrow Chang Michael has a bit of a problem as it relates to plants and I want to get to Michael before we bring in our next guest Michael emailed. I live in a home divided. My wife Adores House plants. We have loads. I abhor them waste of time money and effort. If anything can die I want nothing to do with it. I live in New Hampshire. Nature does it better and if I WANNA plant. I just go outside there. It is beautiful and welcome. I know I'm total curmudgeon Amanda. Can this marriage be saved. We might need to Google summa relationship counselors into their way horticultural. Choose your battles. It's you know if it's something that makes your your partner happy I would say let's say let them run with it but Ryan. I hear where michaels coming from I mean there are some very legitimate allergies allergies and so forth the expense. I know that sometimes people can go into this expecting to spend either an inordinate amount of time or significant amount of money on on plants and that can eventually create a social strain my advice to Michael. I'm not married myself and my dad always told me happy wife. Happy be life so that's my advice there but you know being getting into houseplants is not doesn't have to be expensive. You can actually just get a clipping from friends of the different types of plants. The thing is if you can take care of them and they grow that you can propagate them right. Let's just how nature works and so even that doubles I mentioned earlier right. You just take a snipping being of that you cut it underneath a leaf and you put it in water in front of light and in two weeks you'll have roots and you can plant that in a in a new patent so if it's really about costs in that's the factor actor. That's keeping you away from it I would I would completely dispel that in just asked around for some Daryl. Could you give us some quick rules of the road for Clippings Carey wrote on our facebook page. I love stealing a leaf or two from different plants and propagating them at my house. I have great stories of where my plants have come from friends a restaurant while I was vacationing or plant given to my aunt for my cousin's funeral there. What would you say to people that they should keep in mind before taking cuttings clippings just that to make sure sure that the plank or taking it from first of all it doesn't have any pets don't get unwelcomed little visitors and the other thing is to make sure that that particular type of plant can can actually regenerate from whatever tissues you happen to take with you so a Lotta Times for example with the Post. You need to have a piece of the main vines that has a node and the peaceful route and grow new stem. What's that another voice to the conversation. We've been talking about this uptick in sales of house plants and joining us from NPR New York to discuss the business of plants is Matthew Boyle a reporter with Bloomberg News Matthew Welcome to the program. Thanks for happening. I'd like your sense of who is buying buying these plants. If we know more about the demographics of who they are I wonder if most of the consumers who are buying them are kind of similar to Justin who left a note in our inbox. Hi My name is Justin. I'm from Syracuse Indiana and my wife and I got our start with houseplants wearing a friend of ours moved into a small apartment and she didn't have room home for her plants and so she gave us three plants to take care of until she could move into a bigger place and so we found almost immediately that it it kind of brought some I guess I don't know organic life into our otherwise utilitarian a a home. We don't have any kids and so we don't have toys in around. We don't have a child running around it so having plants kind of brought some life into our steel home and so before we knew it we were buying our own plants and kind of propagating new plants from those plants and now we have them on the front porch and in every room in our house nothing too huge. It's just something that kind of brings color in life into our home. Yeah just in sounds like it. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Matt are many of the new buyers like Justin or does it cut across broad demographic lines it does cut across is lines and I'll get to that in a minute but this group you know the majority of those who are buying plants. It's like a marketer's dream. You're talking about eighteen to thirty four high income. Tom Married well educated. These are the groups that you know any consumer product company. Whether you're a Coca Cola or whether you're selling monsters wants to reach but one thing I learned in the course of research for the story was that it is pretty universal. I mean yes certainly the eighteen to thirty four year. Olds make up the more more than any other group in terms of WHO's buying plants but it's across the age demographics. It's very equally split between men and women which is one thing that really surprised me in the course of doing this research so it's yeah it's it's universal. It's it's a plan as everyone's been talking about today. It's such a low barrier to entry despite the fears that people might have have so everyone's really hopping onto this despite the fact that we tend to focus on what the millennials are up to. Why do you think this market has been growing Matt. What's sparked this uptick tick. I mean you gotta put it down to social media as really applied rocket fuel to this certainly in terms of the importance of instagram mommy I did some research and found out that very popular instagram Hashtag plants of instagram has as many posts as as a Hashtag for the New York Yankees so that gives you a sense of how popular this certainly is social media. You know whether it's food or drink or travel as certainly accelerated a lot of trends it's certainly done so here for houseplants but it's you know it's not just that. I think it's also the fact that it ties into a lot of trends. We're seeing today in that. We're covering at Bloomberg. Health and wellness plants fit very well into there and you know the the desire to care for something. Maybe you're not ready for a child. Maybe you're not even ready for a dog but if you're certainly ready for a plant so it's almost like there's Ven Diagram of trans consumer trends and plants are firmly in the center of it. Where do you see the biggest biggest increase in sales or who's taken up the biggest market share. We've got some independent retailers like Ryan and Amanda is it mostly still you know lowe's and Home Depot. Oh or are there different kinds of entities that are starting to carve out their own niche in the market. Yeah there's still tons of sales that are going through your home. Depot's your walmarts and then of course at the garden centers that I think we all remember our parents dragging us to as kids those independent chains some of them have gone out of business but a lot of them are still around and they're benefiting from this trend. What we're not really seeing yet is a lot of online sales. It's very similar to say online grocery for example where a lot of people are still hesitant to buy Avocados and Bananas Online Online. They might be a bit hesitant to buy plant. Online and also sellers are hesitant to put a lot of their plants. They're worried about running out of stock. The worried up plants that's of course being damaged in the in the shipment and delivery so that's one area. That's a big opportunity. I think and sites like you know. The Sil for example apple has gotten a lot of attention. They're venture backed but even them even the sort of online. Only digitally native plant companies are opening brick and mortar stores because they realize allies especially for millennials. It's a lot about experiential marketing. The experience of buying tending learning about plant they have cocktail parties where you can go and learn pick like a plan on your way home things like that so we're seeing growth across all areas but yeah who sells more plants probably the same company that sells more bananas. You know it's your walmarts of the World Ryan Lee. You run a company that chimps ships plants online called rooted. How do you deal with selling plants in the online space and have you contemplated going brick and mortar or do you already yeah. Definitely we have a brick and mortar store in Chinatown in the heart of it on central canal here in Manhattan the online the online world is really interesting that you have a demographic of of millennials who make over probably seventy percent of the purchases through ECOMMERCE right implants shouldn't be any different right but this is an industry that hasn't really gotten up to the speed with the rest of the verticals within consumer brands in the same way and so we're really trying out a lot of different things and so a key aspect of that of why maybe you don't don't think of buying a plan online is because you want to see it in person but there's ways that technology can help that there's augmented reality you can kind of shop the look and and view it in new way and so you know the the thing for us is is that there's incredible greenfield opportunity in building a lot of tools that we think will help in the whole online plant buying experience for the consumer side and then there's a lot of interesting stuff on the actually supply apply side and and how you actually fulfill those orders and getting the right packaging like. Matthew said it's not it's not just like a t shirt that you stuff in a box. These things can get damaged in shipping. They are fragile. They are live a- and so there's a lot of solutions that we're working on here that I think contributes to at the end of the day joyful customer experience that we can we can build the supply. I chain like maybe shipping the same kind of plant from different parts of the country that are closer to your consumers like how do you how do you work around that yeah absolutely so we actually are taking a different different approach and and I actually spoke to the matthew a few months ago when he was writing this article for Bloomberg and I didn't mention this to you because it was in the works but what we do is we connect consumers is directly with a wholesaler shoes and so what that means that scale then is that as a consumer. You're getting that plant ship to in two days because it's not getting shipped from New York if if you live in. La It's getting shipped right outside of. Let's say San Diego and so that gets you quicker. The plant is healthier arrives out there because it's less light and oxygen deprivation and you know it's a benefit from the nursery's too because they get online always on sale channel basically and so that's how we're Josh Dancer questions how we're kind of navigating the supply chain this speaking have protecting plants. I WANNA make sure we get to this question before we go much farther. One listener emailed have a slightly evil and mostly lovable Siamese cat who eats every single. Oh plant that I bring home even the ones I keep highly elevated on my refrigerator any advice on keeping the cat away Amanda. What would you say we get that question a plot in the shop especially about implant toxicity which a lot of house plans to have some mild level of toxicity but yeah when you have a cat that is determined I know that can be a huge challenge. there are products that you can spray on the leaves the plants to make them a bitter or a little less appealing winging when a cat when a cat starts to chew or bat but but yep cats can be challenging especially. Siamese my grandparents I know that they can get into a lot of trouble before four-time is up. I wonder if y'all could you speak to people who are trying to dive in especially those who tend to fret over their plants. There's a little scene in the Netflix cartoon series to cut in Birdie. That kind of speaks to this. Here's that click now. We can do all kinds of neighbors that like I can collect your mail. And what are your cactus when you're Outta town home and make it is passed is two way we're happy. Did you ever water Patina baby girl. Just tell me what you need. You Thirsty Char-. You can a mother over love her daughter. Yes she can't. I'm the proof Tiffany Haddish Alley Wong into converting on Netflix. What advice would you have Daryl for. Someone who just freaks out when it comes to the care of plants especially people who just can't enjoy it because they're worried I would say that you know plant on living things and living things are unfortunately subject to all the realities of nature and so they grow and die and I think it's better to be kinder to yourself when the plant maybe doesn't do so well with you and just trying your best and understanding your conditions is the best way to go Ryan. What would you say to the people who WANNA get started. Where should they start. No don't don't Fret so much about it. Take it easy be patient. You gotTA plant and it's they've been around for millions of years right without autists without our help water at once see what happens see how it reacts how it likes her space again. It's a light I issue so if you're seeing Brown spots a lot of times that that means it's it's. It doesn't have enough light if you're seeing yellowing than that means you know certain things are happening. Maybe it hasn't fungal disease. Maybe you're over watering and so you know I would just say start somewhere with one of the relatively easy plants. If you go on our website you'll see the ones that are directed for any type of light and that aren't easy and I would just recommend give it a shot. It just start. You can't really go wrong here and Amanda. What advice would you give to newcomers. I would add on and say that this is a really accessible hobby. You can buy a plan for a AH. A couple of dollars six dollars often less than a bouquet of flowers bouquet of flowers is going to bring beauty to your house. I buy them but it does die so think of it you know as less intimidating and if it and if you have some failures like everyone has said to yourself and try again. Amanda mcclements is the founder and creative director of little leaf if Amanda thanks for talking to US thank you for having me Darrell Chang the Creator of House Plant Journal and the author of the New Plant Parent Thanks Daryl. Thank you very much. Ryan lead the CO founder and CEO of Rooted Ryan. We appreciate your time. Thank you great to be here and Matthew Boyle reporter for Bloomberg News. Thanks Matthew thanks. Today's program was produced by Jonquil in Hill and edited did by Miranda full more to learn more about Jay q Miranda and the rest of the team visit the one A. Dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W. A. Am you part of American. University in Washington distributed by NPR until we meet again. I'm Joshua Johnson. Thanks for listening. This is one A. The.

Amanda mcclements Ryan Little Leaf NPR Joshua Johnson New York Darrell Chang House Plant Journal Washington Matthew Boyle Darrell Darrell Google Netflix Emmy Indiana Ryan Lee Darrow Chang Michael Ryan Leeann Amanda mcclements Toronto
The Perks And Perils Of Plant Parenthood

1A

35:40 min | 1 year ago

The Perks And Perils Of Plant Parenthood

"Hey there it's Joshua did you know one a is possible because of you. Yes you when you give to your local. NPR Station before the year ends you're building support support for NPR programs. You have come to know love and depend on programs like a and you're also supporting local journalism in your community. So don't wait. Donate do your part in sharing the conversation and supporting the public radio system with a year end gift to your local. NPR Station just visit donate late DOT NPR dot org slash. One A to give and thanks. This is A.. I'm Joshua Johnson in Washington. Ask a twentysomething or thirtysomething what their ideal they deal house or apartment might have in it and you would get a variety of answers of big-screen TV bookshelf floor to ceiling windows increasingly. Only though they might just ask for house plants. Sales of plants are up. Nearly fifty percent. Five zero percent over the past few years and many businesses are crediting young consumers and social media for that. Why are so many folks across demographics entering planned parenthood? We asked you. And here's some of what you left inbox. Hello my name is Victoria. And I'm calling from Philadelphia PA.. I had a lifelong love affair with house plants. I grew up in a home filled with them. My grandparents grandparents had plenty of them as well and we had backyards filled with tomato and vegetable plants and I went through a period of time in my life for for eleven years I could not sustain a single house plant in my dark little apartment. And it was heartbreaking. Now I live in light and airy the apartment and I have a Philodendron Xanadu. That is my favorite plant. The ball past for eleven years. It's huge and just being around house. Plants manses just like literally oxygen and life for me joining us. Here in studio is Amanda mcclements the founder and creative director of Little Leaf A plant store here in DC Amanda Welcome to one and thank you for having me joining us from. Npr New York is Ryan lead the CO founder and CEO of rooted. A plant store based in New York Ryan. Welcome just going to be here and in Toronto. Darrell Chang is behind the blog house plant journal. He's also the author of the New Plant Parent Darrelle. Thanks for being with us. Thank for having me. I'd love to know how you all came to your various relationships with plants or listeners told us about a lot of their plant experiences. Here's what Emmy in Charlottesville said I and a House plant lover to me. They're like a part of my family. I got the love from my mom and for my grandmother taught me how to care for them In particular I have a house plant airplane plant named Ed Spider Plant and it came from my mother-in-law woman that never met because she passed away before my husband and I were married and my mother-in-law would take little sprout wings of Ed and government to people and they each had to name the plant. We have EDWINA and I taught high school I would take little seedlings or or cut links of at and cultivate them and give them to my students when they graduate. It's they can have a clean air plant in their dorm rooms. I also have a very special J. plant that my husband and I got the weekend we got engaged and one night I left it out and it got too cold and I thought that I'd lost it and then found another little seedling. Falling stashed away somewhere and I've is cultivated it. Now it's as big as wise. That's a great story. Emmy thank you very much for sharing that. Amanda let me start with you. How did you come to love plants? Sure so I Like some of your callers mentioned grew up in a houseful of plants. You know my mom was one of those hippies. Making Maccarone plant hangers and cultivating an indoor jungle. And and I had been running a home boutique here in Washington. DC called Salt and Sunday and we kept hearing from customers. They wanted to buy the plants that we had on the floor and we weren't at the time selling plants so we opened little leave back in the winter of twenty sixteen and I was really looking to create a place where you could buy a house plant and a boutique environment with more one on one attention a little bit more personal service and not having to drive out to a big box store. What was it about plants? Amanda that appeal to you. I mean I've always. Oh he's loved plants. I will say my my mother would probably correct me and say that there was a period. Where like your first caller I was having a some sad plant situations in my house. But I've learned to live plant situations which I'm sure some of your other guests can can speak to you but It's it's something that brings a lot of life to space and an end. Implants earn a really important part of creating beautiful home. How many do you have personally personally? living or dead. I'm just kidding I probably really have you know. There's probably twenty or so on my first floor. A lot of those are smaller little CACTI and succulents that I have in my kitchen window Larger plants probably three or four big ones. Almost the experience of learning to grow plants. been like you know it's trial and error. I think we hear from a lot of customers. They come in and they say I don't have a green thumb and I don't like this idea that some people have a green thumb and some people. Don't I think we all kill plants. And it's a part of getting to know how to care or for plants so I think people shouldn't be intimidated and we're we're literally for always trying to take that intimidation factor out of it. Because you know it's trial and error and you'll have successes and failures Ryan what about you. How did you come to be interested in plants going up? It didn't have a ton of plants at home but he was raised by my parents In the outdoors on from northern California. And so you know just spend all my time you know in the Sierra Nevada's at Yosemite just even in the Santa Cruz Mountains and Really grew up just hiking. backpacking checking climbing fishing and just really being immersed in the outdoors and when I moved to New York you know to be honest. I was those little depressed because I missed that that connection to that Outdoor world that that that spurns creativity and happiness and And so I wanted to recreate that in my apartment and so my co founder and I When we moved in together you know we decked out our place in plants but you know in two or three months we actually ended up killing a lot of them You know we didn't know how to take care of them. We didn't know it was a light first conversation There was just a lot in the whole Urban in gardening experience that we just didn't know and there wasn't a lot of information that was quickly and easily accessible for us and so that was kind of the genesis of why and how he started rooted is really just to connect reconnect our generation and people like me and K To Nature And so that's kind of my background and I I really appreciate what managed said about. There isn't really distinct about you. Have a green thumb. And then you have it forever I probably have fifteen implants my room and and most of them are living But there's definitely one or two. That are on the cusp of death year. Darrell what about you. How did you you get into? Plants has a very similar story In that I think in my early childhood I was mostly involved with outdoor guarding. My Mom taught me everything about how to garden. Learn and grow vegetables and then we moved to new Slightly bigger place. It had some wonderful skylight and so she kinda told me. Oh why don't we decorate by plant. And she also had hope but but I'm really bad with indoor plant and it kind of confusing because I was like well. If you're so good with outdoor gardening what's so different. Vote indoors right and and so it kind of became a little bit of a a little project and challenge for me to sort of try and understand it and That's kind of how it started. And then you know I I would look up information as any millennia would google and kind of found the same sort of a lack of information or lack of depth of information and So that's that's where husband Journal started was literally just blog that was to Document and Journal about the plan that I had and you know as you. Do you grow a little bit. In terms of followers people will start to ask questions because they have the same plans and then they start asking questions and you know after I could probably safely say eh. Thousands of questions one starts to wonder like what what is it. A Vote Plant House plant care in particular that that is that is maybe not well explained or things maybe overemphasize versus not emphasize enough. And so that's sort of what spurred me on to cause writes in a more maybe like critical and scientific manner of plants. And that's kind of how the book The new plan parent like my book came came to be. I'd love to know more. About how many plants you have. But let me play a quick voicemail from deal from South Carolina who called in and told us how many plants she has. My name is is Dale. I'm calling from Lancaster South Carolina and I'm calling about your question concerning houseplants and I have to tell you. I have close to thirty house plants plant and my two thousand square foot house and it seems to keep the house fresher without having the smell of dogs of which I have five and they also give me comfort caring for them. I can't say enough about having house plants in your life because they do make the world and your life in general a whole lot better. Well thanks very much for sharing that with US D.. Darrell what's your plant population. Looks like It's really hard to I. Don't think I've ever actually counted because just basically every every spot in front of the window has a plant there So I put an estimate at Maybe fifty fifty five zero plants. Yeah five zero. Yeah Yeah we have plenty of people sharing their stories with us about their love of plants. We'll get into as many of them as we can as we continue with. Amanda mcclements of Little Leaf Ryan Lee of rooted. And Darrell. Zero Chang of Houseplant Journal. I'm Joshua Johnson and you're listening to one A. From W. A. M. U. and NPR support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Uber. Uber is committed to safety and to continuously raising the bar to help make safer journeys for everyone for starters. All drivers are background checked before their first ride and screened on an ongoing basis and now uber has introduced a brand new safety feature called ride. I check which can detect if a trip goes unusually off course and check in to provide support to learn more about Uber's commitment to safety visit Uber Dot com slash safety. Hey Mindy year. NPR's how in the world to Guy Rosin me for our special one hundred episode musical science laughs. It it's when the world from tinker casts and NPR. Listen live now in share with your kids. This is one A.. I'm Joshua Johnson we're talking. Houseplants with Ryan Lee of rooted. Amanda mcclements of Little Leaf. And Darrell. Chang the author of the new plant parent. I wonder if there's one big misconception that you have to dispel for people who come into your shop is there one thing that a lot of people think they know. I know about house plants. But they really don't I would say it's. It's really that misconception that you're either good at it or you're bad at it like we talked about before that you either have of a green thumb are you. Don't Ryan what about you. One big misconception. You find that many people have yeah. Let's say the prioritization of of light versus water. I think there is is a majority group of people who think like. Oh I got a plant. How often do I need a water? And yes. That's a key step in in nurturing and growing that plant but actually it's it's a light I Option and a lot of the Problems that arises. Because it's probably not getting enough light or it's getting too much late like that's the thing too right. If we go out in the sun we'll get sunburned. `But alive plants do have those qualities and you need to put them in the right light situations to win But I think the first thought in most people's heads you know. How often do I water it? Am I over. Watering it Do I need to do it twice a day so I said I would say. That's a big thing I've encountered darryl what about you. Yeah definitely The first two enters are excellent and I was just kind of adding that The whole notion that you even think that you have total control or the plan I think is what causes people a a lot of disappointment because just by the size of your windows. I could probably tell you whether plant with duo and has nothing to I mean it has like I to do with the light and then secondly you know all all the things that you do in your power which is watering fertilizing. Be Putting at the right time You know it's all kind of predicated on having good light. Let me. It gets to a clip from listeners. Who told us about the uptick in interest in plants? And I want to get to that particularly with you. Amanda and Ryan since you sell plants retail retail plants. Here's a quick clip of what they left in our inbox by Joshua. This is Carl in Charlotte. When I was a little kid growing up in the early sixties in New Jersey Aziz my parents received little cock? This and it came in a box. They thought it was funny. That a plant come in a box but it was a khaki so you can do that. They took the little tiny cactus. They put it on their window sill in the kitchen and every once in a while because cactus they gave it a little bit and they would ask each other. You think it's growing how you think it's doing. Yeah I think it's going I think it's going good. And then they found out it was order facial they laughed at each other because back in the early sixties back in those days artificial plants looked artificial. But this really looked real name is courtney I live in West Palm Beach Florida. My journey with house plants evolved from being a child of the eighties. Growing up in. Indiana was my mother's house covered in fake ferns burns and five e that collected dust and the nineties I had the status quo here. One focus on the corner of my room with the Christmas lights wrapped around it but as gruesome my thirties in my forties. I realized those fake plants were of no benefit and they are actually sprayed with toxic chemicals that were detrimental to my health and my family's health so now my house is full of real live ivy and other plants that I pull from Nassar's his air purifying lists I nurture them and take care of them just as I do my three little humans and my two dogs and they bring us a lot of joy. You Call Courtney for sharing your stories with this courtney. I'm from West Palm Beach also. I bet we got the same fakest from the same pure one but I am interested in. Carl's comment I mean with artificial plants. What do you think of artificial artificiality inherently pad or is there room for artificial? I'm laughing at his Story because confession that I have in college I I absolutely watered a roommates fake orchid and she went out of town for a couple of weeks and I thought I wonder if that work it needs water and the water poured out the bottom and I poked the dirt right and I realized that it was just a really Good looking artificial plants. So which mettler. Yeah I meant well well You know there. I'm not a big fan of artificial plants. You know they gather dust and Like previous caller said they don't they don't add a lot of life to a space so you know I think dried plants can be a good alternative. If you're looking for something that you absolutely don't have to take care of. But ultimately I think live plants or the way to go. You're Ryan to that point. What would you recommend for people who I WANNA start somewhere? They're busy. They don't have a lot of space. They don't know what they're doing. They would rather not kill a plant but they feel like they're kind of inclined to because they just don't know how to do what. What's a good starter right? I'm just going to Echo amandas comment that I am not a supporter of the flake. Fake plastic plants You know we don't need more plastic acid in the world. There are also like plastic particles that get admitted that you know are the reason why you have air filtering plants that take away you know Benzine Benzene Formaldehyde from the air because of those products. So definitely don't do that. There are a ton of plants that can work in a variety of different light situations and spaces is that are not that high upkeep or maintenance for example like as easy plant Amanda. I'm sure you'll this your story two. That's one of the most resilient implant out there you water it maybe once every two or three weeks and it can tolerate even low amounts of light obviously not a bat cave corner but when you know that's one option for low light scenarios another one for highlight scenarios. If you have a ton of light right there's aloe. There's Aloe Hedgehog CACTI that only need watering once every four weeks so if you travel a lot for work or if you're in jetsetter like that's perfect for you if you don't know what you're doing and so there's still a lot of options out there and you know rooted while we have a retail so we have an online online shop to in one of our kids are bundles. If you will is called the resilient af kit right and it's it's it's plants that will survive in a lot of different conditions and and so there are options for you. It's just about finding the one that works for your light. Amanda what about people who live in kind of small less lit spaces. Maybe it's like a a a basement apartment or an in-law apartment in place that doesn't have windows facing all four corners. Ultimately plants do need light. which is something that disappoints some people here here? But they're a great grow lights on the market so if you actually have a room with no light there are lights that you can plug into a wall and have a plant thrive underneath but otherwise otherwise you know. We've mentioned the Z.. Plant snake. Plants are probably our best seller at little leaf. They require a not a lot of light. They're pretty a happy wherever you put them And you know for some of these. I like to say a little neglect goes a long way. I think one mistake. A lot of people make is that they loved their plants too much. And you're over watering a plant that really only needs to be watered every two to four weeks so I think kind of backing off and giving them their space can be a good tactic. Thank Daniel Excuse me. But you're Darrell. Darrell what about care instructions. I mean like I said I don't know plants but it would seem that to a certain extent if you're you're cultivating the same kind of plant in the same kind of environment. Why isn't it just by the book? Like how often do you have to wing it with your plants as the post. Just follow someone's instructions. Well I think the one of the things that involves with instructions that you believe that if you follow them then everything will be fine and that. That's a game of really open discussing and therefore a lot of people. Expectations of the plant will be. Oh you should always look perfect as long as like do exactly this right and I think you were saying about the same environment and I really put kind of big air quotes on that because Nobody's windows those are exactly the same size there are everybody obstructions outside the windows are totally different. And that one variable on the light means that. There's a huge variance in terms of how let's call it. How productive that plant will be right? And that's why you know I wouldn't even call winging I would say that the instructions really should be based on observation rather than just following strict rule. So really they're all it sounds like what you're saying. is you go into it less with rules and more with sake guidelines lines like general parameters and then you figure it out you adapt it for your situation. Is that it exactly. Exactly what are some of the best places to get some of those guidelines other than House House Plant Journal of course like where do you look at Well actually you know when I read Maybe it sounds the way journal. I don't want to keep you plug in your own work. Well okay. I'll I'll say even when you look on Google and you see what I would call typical plant-care instructions again if you if you look at them with the eyes of saying that these are guidelines and then and you're going to then do your own sort of adjustments as you work on your own time then actually all the information out there is quite good right So the best instructions though. We'll tell you okay. It's bright indirect light then That's a huge loaded word in terms of what it actually means but it just really means. Put circuses window and make sure that the sun doesn't shine on for too long a lot of different nuances with that. We'll continue our conversation in a minute. Chang Rhineland Wind Leeann. Amanda mcclements in a moment. We'll talk more about the business of plants and will answer one of your biggest concerns that many of you are asking about cats stay close support for. NPR comes from Newman's own foundation working to nourish the common goodbye by donating all profits from Newman's own food products to charitable organizations that seek to make the world a better place. More information is available at Newman's own foundation dot org. Hey there it's Joshua. Thanks for listening to the one a podcast. Don't forget to do your part and donate to your local. NPR Station before the end end of the year. And guess what supporting public radio just got easier with text to give to get started with your donation to an NPR member station visit donate dot NPR dot org slash one day or. Just text the word give to the number four nine six four eight. We'll send you a text message with a link where you can find your local station and make your contribution message and data rates may apply you can visit. NPR Dot Org Slash S S terms for privacy and text message terms. So don't wait. Donate do your part in sharing the conversation and supporting the public radio system. Thanks back now to our conversation with Ryan Lee. Amanda mcclements and Darrell Chang. Michael has a bit of a problem as it relates to plants. I WanNa get to Michael before before we bring in our next guest Michael emailed. I live in a home divided. My wife Adores House plants. We have loads I abhor them. mm-hmm waste of time money and effort. If anything can die I want nothing to do with it. I live in New Hampshire nature. Does it better and if I WANNA plant I I just go outside there. It is beautiful and welcome. I know I am a total curmudgeon. Amanda can this marriage be saved. I don't know he might need to Google summer. SUMMA relationship counselors there way horticulturist. Choose your battles it's you know if it's something that makes your your partner happy I would say I'd say. Let them run with it but Ryan I hear where Michaels coming from. I mean there are some very legitimate allergies and so forth the expense. I know that sometimes times people can go into this expecting to spend either an inordinate amount of time or significant amount of money on plants and that can eventually truly create a social strain my first advice to Michael. I'm not married myself and my dad always told me how happy life. So that's my advice there But you know getting into houseplants doesn't have to be expensive. You can actually just get a clipping from France of different types of plants. The thing is if you can take care of them and they grow that you can propagate them right. That's just how nature works and so even that doubles I've mentioned earlier right. You just take snipping of that. You cut it underneath a leaf and you put it in water in front of light and in two weeks you'll have roots and you can plant that in new pot and so if it's really about costs and that's the factor that's keeping away from it. I would. I completely dispel that. And just ask around for some trends. Daryl could you give us some quick rules of the road for Clippings Carey wrote on our facebook page. I love stealing a leaf or two from different plants. It's and propagating them at my house. I have great stories of where my plants have come from friends a restaurant while I was vacationing or plant given to my aunt from my cousin's funeral Tara. What would you say to people that they should keep in mind before taking cuttings clippings We'll just that To make sure that the plane you're taking from First of all it doesn't have any pets you don't get any unwelcomed too little visitors And the other thing is to make sure that that particular type plant can actually Regenerate from whatever tissues you happen to take a Lotta Times for example with the post you need to have a piece of the main vines that has a no doubt peaceful route and grow new extent. What's that another voice of the conversation we've been talking about? This uptick in sales of house plants and joining us from NPR New York to discuss the business of plants. Let's is Matthew Boyle a report with Bloomberg News Matthew. Welcome to the program. Thanks for Avenue. I'd like your sense of who is buying these plants. If we know more about the demographics demographics of who they are I wonder if most of the consumers who are buying them are kind of similar to Justin who left a note in our inbox. Hi My name is Justin. I'm from Syracuse recused Indiana and my wife and I got our start with houseplants when a friend of ours moved into a small apartment and she didn't have room for her plan so she gave us three plants plants to take care of until she could move into A bigger place and so we found almost immediately that it kind of brought some. I guess I don't know organic life into our otherwise utilitarian home. We don't have any kids and so we don't have toys ing you're on we don't have a child running around so having implant kind of brought some life into our steel home and so before we knew it we were buying our own plant and kind of propagating new plants those plants and now we have them on the front torch and in every room in our house and Nothing too huge. It's just something that kind of brings color in life into our home. Yeah just in sounds like you. Thank you for sharing your story with us. Matt are many of the new buyers like Justin or does it cut across broad demographic lines it does cut across lines. And I'll get to that in a minute but this group the you know the the majority of those who are buying plant. It's like a marketer's dream. You're talking about eighteen to thirty four high income married well educated. These these are the groups that you know any consumer product company whether you're Coca Cola or whether you're selling you know monsters wants to reach but one thing I learned in the course of research for the story was that it is pretty universal. I mean he has certainly The eighteen to thirty four year olds. make up the more than any other group in terms of WHO's buying plants lance but it's across the age demographics it's very equally split between men and women which is one thing that really surprised me in the course of doing this research So it's yeah it's again. It's universal. It's it's a planet as everyone's been talking about today. It's such a low barrier to entry despite the fears that people might have so. Everyone's really hopping onto this. Despite by the fact that we tend to focus on what the millennials are up to. Why do you think this market has been growing Matt? What sparked this uptick? I mean you got to put it down on. The social media has really applied rocket fuel to this certainly In terms of the importance of Instagram I did some research and found out that A very popular dealer instagram Hashtag plants instagram has as many posts as as a Hashtag for the New York Yankees. So that gives you a sense of how popular this certainly isn't social media. You know whether it's food or drink or travel as certainly accelerated a lot of trends it's certainly done so here for houseplants plants. But it's you know it's not just that I think it's also the fact that it ties into a lot of trends. We're seeing today in that. We're covering at Bloomberg health and wellness. Plants fit very very well into their and the desire to care for something. Maybe you're not ready for a child. Maybe you're not even ready for a dog but if you're certainly ready for a plan so it's almost like there's Ven Diagram Trans consumer trends and plants are firmly in the center of it. Where do you see the biggest increase in sales or who's taken up the biggest market share? We've got some independent retailers like Ryan and Amanda is it mostly still you know lowe's and home depot or are there different kinds of entities that are are starting to carve out their own niches in the market. Yeah there's still tons of sales that are going for your home. Depot is your walmarts and of course the garden centers that I think we all remember our parents dragging ragging us to As kids those independent chains some of them have gone out of business but a lot of them are still around and they're benefiting from this trend. What we're not really seeing yet is a lot of online online sales? It's very similar to. Let's say online grocery for example. Where a lot of people are still hesitant to buy Avocados and Bananas Online? They might be a bit hesitant to buy a plant online and also sellers are hesitant to put a lot of their plants They're worried about running out of stock. The worried up plants of course being damaged In the in the shipment and delivery so that's one area that's a big opportunity I think and sites like For example has gotten a lot of attention. They're venture backed But even then even the online only digitally native plant companies are opening brick and mortar stores. Because they realize especially for millennials. It's a lot about experiential experiential marketing the experience of buying tending learning about a plant. They have cocktail parties where you can go and learn pickup plant on your way home. Things like that Sober seeing growth across all areas. But yeah who sells more Plants probably the same company. That sells more bananas. You know it's your walmarts of the World Ryan Lee you run a company. That chimps was PLA- ships. Plants online called route. How do you deal with selling plants in the online space and have you contemplated going brick and mortar or do you already yeah definitely? We have a brick and mortar store in Chinatown. The town in the heart of it on a central canal in Manhattan the online the online world is really interesting that you have Demographic of millennials who make overt you're probably seventy percent of the purchases through ECOMMERCE right. Implants shouldn't be any different right but this is an industry that hasn't really gotten up to speed with the rest of the verticals within consumer brands in the same way And so we're really trying out a lot of different things and so a key aspect of that of why maybe you don't think of buying a plan online is because you want to see it in person right but there's ways that technology can help that right. There's augmented reality. You can kind of shop the look and view it in a in a new way and so you know the the thing for us is that there's incredible greenfield opportunity in building a a lot of tools that we think will help in the whole online plant buying experience for the consumer side. And there's a lot of interesting stuff on the supply side and and how you actually fulfil those orders in getting the right packaging lake. Matthew said it's not it's not just like a t shirt that you stuff in a box right. These things can get damaged in shipping. They are fragile. They are live and so there's a lot of the solutions that we're working on here that I think contributes to at the end of the day a joyful customer experience that we can we can build the supply chain help like maybe shipping the same kind of plants from different parts of the country that are closer to your consumers. Like how do you. How do you work around that? Yeah absolutely so we actually are taking a different approach and and I actually spoke to matthew a few months ago when he was reading this article for Bloomberg. And I didn't mention this to you because it was in the works but what we do. Is We connect consumers directly with Wholesale nurseries and so what that means that scale then is that as a consumer? You're getting that plant shipped to you in two days because it's not getting shipped from New York if you live in. La It's getting shipped right outside of Let's say San Diego And so it's quicker. The plant is healthier. Arrives out there because it's less lighten oxygen deprivation and you know it's a benefit from the nursery's too because they get this online and always on sale channel basically and so. That's how we're Josh Dance your question. That's how we're kind of navigating the supply chain and speaking of protecting plants. I want to make sure we get to this question before where we go too much. Farther one listener emailed. I have a slightly evil and mostly lovable. Siamese cat who eats every single plant that I bring home even the ones I keep highly elevated on my refrigerator. Any advice on keeping the cat away. Amanda what would you say we get that question a lot in the shop and especially about implant toxicity which a lot of house plants do have some mild level of toxicity But yeah when you have a cat that is determined. I know that can be a huge challenge There are products that you can spray on the leaves of the plants to make them a bitter or a little less Appealing when a cat when the cat starts to chew or or Bat but but yeah cats can be challenging especially Siamese. My grandparents stabbed there then. I know that they can get into a lot of trouble before our time is up. I wonder if y'all could you speak to people who who were trying to dive in. especially those who tend to fret over their plants. There's a little scene in the Netflix cartoon series. Two in Birdie that kind of speaks to this. Here's that clip. Now we can do. Oh all kinds of neighbors like I can collect your mail. And what are your cactus when you're out of town home kicked passed away. We're happy. Did you ever water the baby girl. Just tell me what you need you thirsty child you over what it can a mother Over love her daughter. Yes she can't and I'm the proof. Tiffany Haddish in Allie Wong in to convert on Netflix. What advice would you have daryl for someone who just freaks out when it comes to the care of their plants especially people who just can't enjoy it because they're worried I would say that you know plant living things and Living things are unfortunately subject to all the realities of nature and so they grow and die. And I think it's better to be kinder to yourself when when Plante maybe doesn't do so well with you and just trying your best and understanding your conditions is the best way to go Ryan. What would you say to people who WanNa get started? Where should they start? No don't don't Fret so much about it take it easy. Be be patient. You gotTA plant. And it's they've been around for millions of years without us without our help water at once. See what happens See How reacts how it likes her space again. It's a light. I issue so if you're seeing Brown spots a lot of times that means it's it's it doesn't have enough light If you're seeing yellowing than that means you know certain things are happening. Maybe it has a fungal disease. Maybe you're over lottery and so I would say start somewhere with one of the relatively easy plants. If if you go on our website you'll see the ones that are directed for any type of light and that are easy and I would just recommend give it a shot to start. You can't really go wrong. Here Kamanda what advice would you give to newcomers. I would add on and say that this is a really accessible hobby. You know you can buy a plan for a couple of dollars. Six dollars often less than a bouquet of flowers bouquet of flowers is going to bring beauty to your house. I buy them But it does die so think of it as less intimidating and if and if you have some failures like everyone has said be kind to yourself and and try again. Amanda mcclements is the founder and creative director of little leaf. Amanda thanks for talking to thank you for having me Darrell. We'll check the creator of House Plant Journal and the author of the new plant parent. Thanks Daryl thank you very much Ryan lead the CO founder and CEO of Rooted Ryan. We appreciate your time thank you. It was great to be here and Matthew reporter for Bloomberg News. Thanks Matthew thanks a lot. Today's program was produced by Jonquil Anhil edited by Miranda full more to learn more about Jay. Q Huma Randa and the rest of the team. visit the one A. Dot org slash staff. This program comes to you from W. Amu part of American University in Washington Antony distributed by NPR. Until we meet again. I'm Joshua Johnson. Thanks for listening. This is one A. uh-huh yeah.

Amanda mcclements Ryan Lee Darrell Chang NPR Joshua Johnson New York Little Leaf Google Matthew Boyle Emmy Ed Spider Plant NPR Station House House Plant House Plant Journal Washington NPR Station Indiana Philadelphia
Ep 19: Matthew Boyle, Mandarin Chinese Card Game Master Extraordinaire

Changing Scripts: Conversations about Mandarin Chinese with native speakers and learners

1:13:44 hr | 2 years ago

Ep 19: Matthew Boyle, Mandarin Chinese Card Game Master Extraordinaire

"Welcome to the changing scripts podcast every Sunday. We'll have one of two types of episodes all of them revolving around learning and using Mandarin. Chinese one type of episode will be my updates on. What I'm learning? How I'm learning it different quirks within language and sometimes information about China itself since I am living in trying high China right now the second type of that zone where I'm interviewing people as at are either learning the language like I am or people who grew up with Mandarin Chinese and the learned other languages the updates used to be on a YouTube channel. But have now migrated over into the podcast. The interviews started on the YouTube channel as well. And they very quickly ended up on the podcast. So everything's been kind of going back and forth. Now having said that the podcast is also available to listen on its own YouTube channel check the show notes, and you can find the link to the YouTube channel there. It's just an audio form. If you're studying Mandarin Chinese have city Mandarin Chinese, I'll whether it be a child, doesn't it dolt? You're currently studying you're currently. Using the language. I would love to interview you. So please contact me. These kinds of podcasts are passion projects created from a place of deep interest, and they need to find other people that have those interests in the best way to do that is word of mouth. So you can go fill out an apple podcast review. If you really want to. But honestly, I'd much rather you tell a few of your friends about this podcast. Thank you so much, and let's dive into the episode. I love telling the story of how I met the people I'm interviewing because oftentimes there is a personal connection that happens way before the interview, and that is very very true. With Matt's case matinee connected on YouTube, months, and months and months ago, and in fact, for his language card games that he's going to talk about during this interview because he should because it's awesome. I actually did a review for the cards a few months ago that still on my YouTube channel, and he's come out with a few new desks for the card since then as a matter of fact, he's so hard working, and they are such a really a really amazing tool to learn Chinese well playing a game we. Met on YouTube. I got a glimpse into his level of the of of Mandarin Chinese, and I I was awestruck. I am still even now year and a half in still struggling with getting basic things out of my mouth that are not just critically. Correct. But that actually get something done that convey, some sort of meaning. And so I was just I was awestruck that he was so advanced than not only was he using language functionally, but he was creating specific gaming world fo cabbie Jerry games to help other people get to a very high level in a very fun way. And so I knew when I started the changing scripts podcast that he was going to be on here. I think you're gonna really really enjoy Matt's insight and experience into learning and using and using Mandarin Chinese in China one final audio to make here this interview with Matt was done a couple of months ago. This was meant to be the first. Episode of this season of changing scripts long story short. It was my first remote interview. And I made every single mistake with the technical slash audio aspect of it. And I couldn't do it by myself, and they finally reached out to Jay Jackson at the school of podcasting dot com. And we finally got the audio to the point or it is listenable. I appreciate your patience with those tiny residual audio things that might come through. So thank you very much. Dave. Thank you so much for remotely being in this conversation. Thank you for having me at my name. This Matthew Boyle, and I grew up outside of Washington DC, I can trace back my interest to China and Chinese to a single moment in high school when I picked up a small book of zen parables, my father received a miniatures and garden from a friend to keep on his desk at work, and it came with this book. So I read these parables, and I got really interested in zen and Buddhism and later Taoism, and I was reading a lot of that in high school, and when I went to university I kept studying that kind of stuff, and I took a year of Chinese. And then I was planning to teach in my home state Virginia. But when I was graduating on getting ready to start teaching there, a friend suggested why don't you come to China? You can do the same thing of air. You know, you can teach over here for a couple years. There's no need for you to settle down right away. And I was thinking in a similar way I've never really gotten out before. And so I thought why don't that try that? And I I did right after graduation came to China Guay Lynn Guangxi province, and I've been here ever since relent. Join it at for listeners that aren't that familiar with Taina. Can you kind of describe where that is open for Guangxi is in the south Angolan is a very popular tourist hotspot? It's a maybe an hour and a half from a place called young Schule were a a lot of backpackers and hikers and travelers and tourists go to have that famous karst photography this. Nouns that are very finger like, and they they do the bamboo rafts down. The river is actually young show is on the back of the twenty dollar Chinese Bill. Or the twenty the twenty U N Bill, so you can see a picture of that area. It's very scenic. It's so wonderful place to go. I lived there for two years. The weather's gets pretty hot humid little bit unpredictable. But actually hope maybe in the future. I could move back there if I do settle down in China. I think that would be a great place to do it. And that was from twenty eleven to twenty thirteen I came in twenty eleven okay. Yeah. Where do you live in China? Now. Are you in right now, I live about two hours north of Guang Joe, okay? In Guangdong province kind of in the countryside. Boonies? Did you start learning Chinese in high school when you start first started being attractive to the then by learn Chinese for the first time in university? I took it for one year. I'll okay, okay. It was actually kind of it was kind of by chance that it came about. Because you know, I went to university, and I actually studied Arabic for. For year, and I really enjoyed it. And then something happened with the language requirement. They kind of messed me up, and they said, you basically have a choice you can redo the Arabic class again. You know, something with my credits was messed up this. You can do that again or you can choose a new language, and I said, well, I really loved Arabic, but I'm not going to sit through the same class for another year just to confirm my credit. So I chose Chinese at that point. So it was kind of a little bit by chance, although I was very interested in Chinese culture. I didn't expect I would be leaving the US. So I just wanted. I just chose anything. I wanted. Basically, I wasn't thinking I would ever go to China. I was kind of a false whatever they call it a false beginner of false starter. When I came to China, it was several years after I had taken that class. So I basically had to relearn the basics again got provide to ask you some questions about your first. Language is English your first language. Yes. It is. How do you? Remember anything either in the classroom or at home or anywhere? Do remember anything about the process or the language that kind of sticks out in your memories of your childhood? Absolutely. I always share this kind of story with my students that growing up. It was very important. And it was a ritual at home that my parents would read to me every night. So that probably began when I was in the womb. Let's say I think my mom was probably reading stories to me that. That I think was critical from a because it gave me a strong interest and a strong ability in vocabulary from a young age, and we had all these books in the bedroom. And you know, after dinner I had to go to bed. I wasn't allowed to stay up and watch a lot of TV or anything. So they they would say after dinner, take your shower, go to your bedroom. Look at some books, wait for us, and my mom and dad would take turns every day and read me a story every single night, and as and the, you know, as I got a little bit older and more able I would read to them and later to my younger brothers and sisters. So I really think that's critical to be reading stories with young ones the image of you reading to your parents is adorable. So cute. Absolutely. It was if it was very hard book than we might, you know, we might do like I read a page. They read a page. I read a page they redid page because I would insist that I want to read some, you know, sometimes you want to be read to, but sometimes as a child, you you want to be the boss and you want to read the book. Very true. Well, okay. Stepping into the classroom of your childhood do member any positive or challenging experience own learning any aspect of the language can be K through twelve anywhere in. They're going off to school was a little bit hard for me. I was kind of introverted, and I wasn't really I wasn't that great at making friends in elementary school. You know, I might have had one or two in every class house kind of introverted kind of shy. And I can remember I didn't want to go to school. Really I had trouble with that. I used to like to do cartooning kind of journal writes stories write poetry, and I had a lot of teachers who did a lot of creative writing and exercises with us. And I think I always did pretty darn well in the English classes. So I never really had a problem. There might like I said, my teachers were very creative. We had to do a variety of a writing exercises and stuff, but I can't remember. Knbr anything outstanding, you know, writing and reading was always a big part of my life. And I used to cartoon and doodle a lot during school. And I'm sure I still have some notebook saved somewhere that can show wasn't paying attention. Oh my gosh. I remember as a kid 'cause I also grew up reading heaps. And I remember as a kid when we were going over as some some children's stuff for the classroom is the topics aren't necessarily super interesting. I remember like putting my book up sort of like, it's extending on it instead of it being flat on the table. Kind of standing it up and making my own puppet shows with my hands. We were reading stuff allowed in class because I was so bored with the content. I'm sorry. I'm bored. I'm gonna fix I'm going to make this better for me. You know? And of course, we're like in a circle and everybody's reading their different parts. And they get to me. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm in the middle of a play over here. What are you doing? When you have that experience of so many different things that exist in the written realm that you can read I think it's hard to sometimes hard to. Yeah. Exactly. I definitely had a very powerful imagination. Absolutely. So when you come to school, what how often goes you have to put aside what you're doing thinking or feeling to learn what's required if everybody to learn so everyone has to conform to this pattern. Right. Right. And that's the problem. I had later was kind of reclaiming the stream I had to run a card shop. I mean, you know, what I'm doing? Now that was something I was into when I was young I used to draw comic books and and make games, and as I got older may be teenager late teenager. I felt like I had to finally give that up which is totally wrong. But it must happen to a lot of people. I think it does. I think it does. And on some was probably I don't know if it needs to I mean to educate people in a group the size of most classrooms. I think it needs to happen. But I'm not sure that that's how we need the educated anymore. But that's a whole other whole other bag of. Yeah. Like, some of my I'm sure some of your students in China, you this too. But I've had students tell me that they've had up to like sixty and eighty students in one class for primaries. Oh, yeah. I know it's amazing. And Chris I can't even like when my when my language classrooms got above like twenty twenty five people. It'd be like, okay. This is really not doable anymore. The how can and those were teenagers to adult. So I'm thinking, oh my gosh. Having children like five six seven years old with eighty of them in one classroom. No wonder there has to be a sense of conformity to move forward and learn stuff. Oh, yeah. You can see the extreme that here in China for sure definitely definitely the question. I love to ask. Because I I am inevitably dr- is it sounds like you are too is in inner formative years. A lot of people seem to fall on one side or the other if they're more of a more drawn to reading or more drawn to writing did you have an affinity for one or the other or were you pretty equally split. I think I was pretty equally split reading and writing were both very strongly encouraged by parents, and they they got a lot of books, and they also got a lot of writing and drawing materials, and I can remember growing up by just use to lay on the floor and drawl, and right, and I had this funny habit where I wouldn't breath when I was doing it. So I would finish a sentence or finish a part of the picture, and then have this huge science breath. And my parents used to remind me don't forget to breathe if our handsome at the Matthews draw lane mad, don't forget to breeds. Why do you started to do that? That's really interesting while I would focus on the part so intensely that I would hold my breath because I didn't wanna make a little mistake on my paper, and I would just lay on the floor and just have crowns or pencils all around me. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. That's really interesting. I'm trying to think of. I don't know. Wow. That's yeah. So I think kind of kind of those are pretty fairly split. I always liked to do both of those things, and I still do come back to when you were learning Chinese. So you said you started learning Chinese when you were at university. The can you kind of describe the the classroom setting that that was. Sure, I was very lucky at university. I had several teachers from I had I think three teachers from China and one from Korea and one whose parents were born in Japan, but he was born in the states. So I had a lot of teachers from Asia and the Chinese teacher. I had was a man named Carl John he might still be there. He is from Sichuan, and he was an amazing man who could speak German English fluently as well as Chinese, and he might have been able to speak one more language, and he used to also do tied. She classes and teach Taiji in the square of the school that class. I think we had about twenty students and it was led by him. And then the next semester. I had a woman from China. I don't remember where she was from. And then a TA from China who took over for a few weeks. So that was the first year, but I we had about twenty students, and they were the same mostly the same people throughout the year. It was pretty typical language learning class. I mean, they would teach some content from the book teach vocabulary how to pronounce it. And then they would ask us to rehearse the conversations printed in the books with the person sitting next to us feel like it was speaking heavier. Did you feel like it was pretty a balance between many of the skills? It was pretty speaking heavy and class. We had a writing characters workbook that we are supposed to do basically for homework. So we would write characters at home, and maybe do a little review of vocabulary and in the class. I think we we really only wrote and the class was very little maybe ten or fifteen minutes on guessing per class. And we would somehow when we had the test. We would have to write down the vocabulary or short sentences. But I think we we definitely talked mostly in the class, and now with any teachers, there are many factors that can make it difficult to manage a classroom. So I say the next question with the utmost respect for teachers in general and language teachers, this was there anything that you wish they had done differently in the classroom. Well, you know, it's kind of hard to renumber because we're talking about this. This is about. This is about ten years ago. Okay. So I have a little trouble. Remembering exactly what I thought of that class. A honestly I I remember loving it. I was head over heels for it. And I and I know I got an A. So I don't think I would have had any problems with the class. I loved my teachers my classmates and everything that happened. If I could have said anything, I probably would have said forget the tests, but that's. And this is kind of digging back to that beginning time period to we'll move on from that. But just it do you have any memories of things coming from English into Chinese any specific things that really were like the biggest struggles when you first switched languages. Biggest struggle. I'll give you a really fairly example that I'm just starting to get over now about a year. In is the spacing issue. There aren't any spaces between words in Chinese and with the limited vocabulary. I mean, I still like I just past ages K two, so I'm still very very low level. But I still sometimes if I don't know, I can know the words around it and kind of figure out. Okay. This two or three. Character thing is either one or two words kind of thing or maybe it could be three words. But generally speaking, the the really short ones, I knew at this point. So I'm like, okay. It's probably one or two words. But at the beginning, I really really struggled with just looking at a line with the period at the end going. I don't know. How many words the sentences isn't that interesting? China's doesn't have this space sliding language does I'll be honest. Even even though I I will admit my Chinese level is not very high. I didn't struggle very much because I loved it so much I was fascinated with it. But the. One thing. I can remember that I felt a little bit intimidated by was the tone issue. I can remember that an I used to say when I was first learning I used to say, I can't remember the tones for the words that's too much to remember. We have to remember a tone second. Tune third went we have to remember that for every word, that's kind of crazy. But a lot of people told me don't worry about that. Now, just get going. Just get started. Don't you know, you can you can emphasize that a little more later if you need to but just don't let that hold you back right now. So I've just put that aside. And then I've just been in love with it ever since I never I still don't worry about Thames us. My really bad. I know that maybe to say some people think as horrible that. I don't but. Decides to it one is that you have to get the tones right from the beginning. And then I've had some really fluent folks who learned it as it's an adult. Tell me just do everything is third tone and just speak fast. A lot of different things. But people seem to fall on both sides like because they changed because the tones change depending on what's around them. Sometimes right. So if you if you memorize it is one step at creature, then you're pretty much going to mess it up later anyway, that's encouraging to hear because I'm not ignoring it because I'm trying to mimic what I'm hearing. But I'm definitely not trying to remember what they are. If I'm saying if I'm reading it from a text, I'm I'm not trying to get the tones, definitely, right? Here's a little tip. I can give about that. And it may work for people who are getting into kind of leaving the beginner stage. Go into the intermediate stage people who chat with Chinese people on the streets is what you can try to do is when they speak, and you kind of understand what they're saying. And what you're talking about. You can re when you reflect back those words, you can make sure you reflect back the same tone that they said I mean, if you can identify that tone when they speak, then when you speak it back, you can make sure you nail it. But otherwise, you don't really remember the tone per se, but in conversation, you make sure you get it. Once the words been coming up. Right. Definitely definitely. And I I don't have a lot of imperfect conversations as of yet because my okay is still very low. But I do find with short exchanges that that works a lot better. And for me. I just I stopped stressing out about. The tone. And I just think of how does it sound. What's the music coming out of their mouth kind of thing? And I try to just kinda wreck. Because that is much more beautiful than a symbol or a number. I'm trying to remember. Yeah. No. That's a really good. Really good thing. I have often wanted to take out my phone and record my super brief conversations and then practice with that person later, but that I don't know as right now that destroys weird. And I never know when exactly when it's going to happen. So it's just like I need to be always ready with my record. Yes. That will that remind me one thing that I do is I like to visit the same people at the same shops and kind of build on our past conversations. So if I find someone I really like that I think I could be friends with I keep going to their dumpling shop or their ballots shop because we've already developed that kind of reporter we can try to go a little bit further. The next time we're talking about a slightly different topic that next time intact. Excellent. And once they know that you're like, if you're at a somewhat beginning stage, once they know you're learning on your trying then I think they're much more likely to be explicable and Ted they help you out a little bit by using easier language in that kind of thing like people are putting it's yes, pretty forgiving about mistakes from witches. Yeah. The one thing that that doesn't work with me as well. As I don't know if it's like this where you live, but in Shanghai some of the restaurants turnover so fast that by the time, I go back there. Really that. I wanted to go back like restaurants or stores or convenience like anything where you're like the customer guac into something. It's like it turns over still fast. Yeah. The nature of a booming economy. I suppose. You mentioned that you were basically a false beginner where after that year when you move to China. What were the things that you felt you needed to kind of review that you didn't remember or have the most experience with that you wanted to when you got here. Well, it's funny because like a lot of people what you have to know how to say when you come to a country is very different than chapter one in your school textbook. So I had a little notebook. And I still have it. And it shows all the words that had to learn right away. So the very first one in the book is Boollel, she she. Because because like I said Golan is very touristy. And there is a lot of streets when you would walk down, you you get harassed by people wanting to you to buy stuff, and they would follow you around. And I'm sure it wasn't helping things by looking like a total greenhorn, you know, just just staring at everything like it was the first time they could tell just got off the boat. So they were going to try to cheat may or on follow me around given it buy stuff. So I said how can I and I'm trying to be polite. How can I tell them? I don't want this to go away. And and my friends told me the best thing to do is just walk away because when you speak to them, and especially if you speak to them in Chinese that's going to encourage them. They're going to think you can speak some Chinese, and they're really going to go after you as a no, no, no. But I wanna be polite. I wanna sit politely to go away. I don't want to. And they taught me we all she she hit. But I had this little notebook some of the things I had to by water because you know, there is no clean running water to drink in the apart. Parents. I knew I couldn't drink the water. So I had to learn you know, I could have just gone and picked up a bottle and paid for it. But I wanted to learn how to speak. So I said, you know, I would like to buy some water or how many bottles of water and also I was vegetarian I had been since high school. So I had to learn how to tell them to not put me at my dishes. So my little notebook is full of these things. Pat's and Japan's do you do with the annoying paper mail that you get to your old addresses in your home country for a few years. I'd have all of my male forward to one friend, and then I'd feel guilty for bothering them so much. So then I'd have family member deal with my mail, and so on and so forth. And I did this for bell. Like what twelve thirteen years, and it got annoying, and let's face it. I miss a male because people have better things to do than look after my paper correspondence. So I finally broke down and got a service from traveling mailboxes. They will literally receive your mail. You get a US address you get to pick the city that it's in and you receive mail, and they'll let you know when mail comes in they'll open it scan it for UC can read it if you really need to go forward it to you for fee. You can also get packages delivered as well. And so there's like a variety of different services that you can have where you don't have to keep booking your friends and family to do with. Your paper mail. So if he go to Steph, Fujio dot we bleed dot com, it's S T E P H F U C C, O dot we bleed W E B L Y dot com. If you go to the bottom, you'll see the blue add on the right traveling mailbox click on that I am now an affiliate program with them. So if you join their services, we both end up very, very happy campers, and you never have to ask your friends or family to receive your mail again. It's truly a beautiful thing. I do encounter a lot of vegetarians in China. That's struggle with even when they get the language component, right, folks. Still having like a meat sauce or having like some sort of component. That's in there. And they're like, but there isn't any meat. Did you face any of those challenges when you absolutely absolutely how did you get it going? I haven't. Well, it still happens occasionally, they it is funny. How culturally they don't regard the little pieces of meat as neat. So you'll encounter that from time to time. I guess they must have regarded as a flavor or garnish some in some way. But the way the way I get around the way we got around it from the beginning because I had a few vegetarian friends stuff. They they would teach me to say something like E D N row yet Blau EDNA Indian real yet. Leo, so even even a little bit even a little bit. Oh and never. Yeah. The the that seemed to help right, but yeah. 'cause it's annoying. If somebody doesn't wanna eat the dish thing just because it has those little bits in it. But you know, what happened is I got more familiar with what the dish is. And what the dish will look like. And what ingredients will be in there as as I spent more years in China. I know what safe to order an I can avoid that. But if you're new to China are new to the restaurant, you might not know what to expect just from the name or even the picture. But I that happens to me I rarely now do you know, any place that folks come online to see like lift of common dishes that would be just naturally vegetarian not off the top of my head. But I do have a couple links in documents that have a list of ingredients and their names vegans and vegetarians, okay, if I can get. From you later because I knew I there are some listeners who are vegetarian and there's someone. Absolutely. I I've be happy to save that and try Ford it too. That'd be I'll make a little note ear. Great. Thank you. Thank you, the language from the classroom to the real life context was different dialect wise. Did you run into any challenges with standard versus the dialect where you were certainly did in Guay Lynn in Guangxi province in the south. They don't use the r sound and the the the words are a lot smoother and kind of blend together a little bit. So give you a given example for like for four in ten they say, so I got confused a lot between four and ten and forty and fourteen and I know that happens elsewhere in China to and also the locals there in Golan. They would flip the F and the H. So a common question is for me as a young, man. They would always ask me if I was married yet. So they would say need. If formula mayo. You know, Mary is g one so instead of saying need Chea one LA mayo or need J when Lama they would say need you when mama. So they said it with an F sound that was the local Golan, they call it. You know, Guela Noi. Is is the local language there. So, but I was focusing on learning Mandarin. But I think come in their first rate might ear kind of set it's default on Guela Noi right in the Waylon style of pronouncing Mandarin or or not really pronouncing Mandarin, but guede hall, basically, that's what my ear got settled on. But I moved around a lot. So I developed a philosophy that I should be open to any language that I'm hearing and try to learn from it, and my students used to make fun of mate because they would say just study Mandarin just said, he Putin quad says silly free to study, the local languages they thought that was funny and ridiculous in a waste of time and something only the older people speak. But I, but I became better at hearing the locals than my students, or even my Chinese girlfriend and some places because you are open to those variations you probably I'm open to it. My mind's open my ears open. So I can learn it. But they don't wanna learn it. So they don't because they've chosen decided they don't want to right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And this happens in a lot of languages. There's a lot of cultural. I didn't wanna say cultural tribalism, but there's definitely like there can be like an us them with. Oh, they talk funny 'cause they don't say it like me kind of thing. Yes. There's a stigma a social stigma. Whereas I think we have less than that. When we come into the language, and we're like, oh, that's interesting. Like, I've noticed I live very close to you Lou in Shanghai. And so I've noticed like I'm on a major street and near Panyu, and I thought oh, this is going to be so easy to get back to my new apartment. I'll just say this intersection, and these are two major streets about every other taxi driver will confuse the the place of in Panyu with an F met with enough. Now, I'm gonna mess it up with found. Yeah, they do with an F sound, which is not. It's not really a normal mistake to make. And so I'm sitting there going. Okay. It happened. Once it happened twice. The third time. I'm going to start in my really really broken Chinese start asking the taxi drivers. Hey, where are you from? 'cause I want to know what regional dialects. This is coming in with because this is just not normally like I've talked to other people about Panyu Lou. And that's not coming up is enough sound so Mike what is happening here. Whereas I think somebody who was like this is the way it said would just be like, well, they've doing it wrong. But it's so interesting to hear those differences. Yes. I've heard that some I don't know if this is true to don't quote me on this. But I've heard that when you're young sometimes, you know, your ear can get set around certain sounds, and if you hadn't heard other sounds than when you get older, it's really hard to hear them because I I've run into some students and friends in China who can't distinguish the different sounds that. I'm saying whether it be English or Chinese. They just can't even hear it, which I think is fascinating. And I'm sure it happens in the reverse with me. That's why if you can't hear a sound that you're Mandarin teacher is teaching you like when you're first starting out if you can't hear the difference. It's going to be very hard for you to make that sound. Some people have trouble hearing the differences in towns like when you say sits. That's. You know, some people say what's the difference? If you can't if your air can't be open to it yet. You're going to have a real real trouble speaking that language. So too so true. And I think I've heard that also for languages that have cliques and things like there's a certain age where after that. If you try to learn it, you're a lot of people aren't are able to make those sounds because they're not just their their minds and their sound gets or their sound ability gets stuck with their physical mechanism their mouths and Thomas. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Really really is. But I want to go back to the FAA ch- thing you mentioned in g- Wayland because I really historically. I'm kind of curious about that. Because when I lived in Japan they for every ninety percent of Fs. They would pronounce with an h sound like I lived in who to a few C H U and everybody pronounced who. Chew. And even melt Fuji was for local not even for locals for Japanese people now who g like every f within eight, and I'm very curious. If there's some overlap, historically, I'm why that happens. An interesting question. Right. I don't know. But yeah. Yeah. So that's that's very very interesting because it was across the board like some my students like my last name starts with an F, and they would start to pronounce it like that. And I'm like, okay. Okay. But this is a talion. So they actually do say at like this kind of thing. Okay. Fine. But it was really interesting to see that F sound because they're still writing at like enough not like an H even in the room innovation. But it's not pronounced like that. So it was. Yeah. Very interesting stuff. Yeah. And I don't know enough Japanese to go into the context of why they do that. But there. Like in your usage of Chinese. Now. Do you find yourself speaking at a lot writing it a lot? I know you make the cards. So I mentioned there's quite a bit of writing and drawing of the the words, but what do you find that you use the most in the language? As as definitely listening and speaking. Yeah. By far, I don't I haven't worried about writing for a long time. The must just for fun and recreation because I usually type opinion on my phone or computer. So I don't bother with learning. How to write unless I want to enjoy you know, the kind of calligraphy the calligraphy of it. I'm some from time to time I might do that a little bit. But I think my my favorite way is to go to the local teashop and have tea and talk, and I think that's true for a lot of language learners. I mean from the time where children we we hear it first. And then we learn to speak it out as babies, and then we start learning to read, and then we start learning to write. So kind of goes in that order, I I really don't have to write anything down in my daily life. And if I need to I can type it out on the phone and show somebody, and I know Chinese are having trouble to with. Forgetting how to write their own characters because people are using technology so much now to type out the characters, but I mostly I mostly speak and have conversations, and that's the way I like, so I just run with that care. And I really wonder that debate is very interesting to me in English on Chinese of, you know, we're not able to spell any more in English or people can't write the the characters in Chinese. And I really wonder that stuff was meant to be a Representative of the language anyway. So if we can do it with technology. Do we need to have it perfect in handwritten form? I don't know. I'm not fully on either side. I'm just kind of curious if how much it really matters. I don't know. I don't know. What's the question they have to wrestle with? And I have I made a TV game show where they have people. China's people come on. And they tell him a character and see if they can write a competition. Do they? Oh my God. I would actually really like to watch that do know what it's call. It is it is. Still on now. I don't know. I remember I can't remember if I read or heard about that a couple of years ago that still on but they're trying to encourage young people not to not to forget how to write their language, right? Right. Right. Right. Right. Oh my gosh. I would I I'll I'll look that up to that. That sounds like something I would really like to. Not to make fun of them. But I love like I often accidentally say draw the characters I am a terrible artist in the sense that my thing the things in my head. Don't look things that come out of my hand. But I really really enjoyed the kind of swishing of the characters, and I really like drawing them I often say accidentally drawn to write them because it feels like calligraphy pencil. So it'd be fun to watch. How other people are drying them correctly or incorrectly? I think that'd be kind of fun anyway. So I was like oh my God. That's so cool. Oh my gosh. Okay. I think we skipped a bunch of stuff shoot. Let's go back. So you studied for a year the language for a year in university. And then you came to China, and did you take classes went you were here or were you just studying by talking to people and picking up books or how did you continue studying them? I tried it with my friends a lot who are headed may American friends. And I always felt when I went out with them the way, they spoke Chinese gave me a lot of encouragement and showed me that I could do at two and I used to mimic their phrases. And they were able to you know, teach me at the dinner tables when we were out. So that was very helpful. But I'll I also got tutored for I want to say about. I think I bought a package for fifty or sixty classes and they were about an hour each and this is an impersonation tutoring. Session. Yeah, it was one on one. I think and so that lasted for just a few months because I think I went once a day. So it was it was probably no more than two months, and I was kind of off in running after that. I really didn't want to take class about it. Because you know, I was a teacher, and I was teaching a lot and I didn't want to go back in the classroom, even for my own learning as a student, and I still don't so I used to learn just by going out to dinners with friends and talking to local people harmless developer from his tutoring. Sessions like where you guys working through a book redes- bringing in things that happened in life, or what what was kind of funny because I was a teacher at that point. And I knew a lot about teaching. And so it was it's kind of weird having to assume the role. All of the student and a one on one scenario because I used to have my conceptions about what how we should approach it. Right. So I kind of had to put that aside. But what I would do was I had a lovely teacher. I still remember her. I haven't I haven't chatted with her in a while. But I should her name was we'll pay gin and she works in Golan. I know where she works. And I guess she's still there, and I used to bring is to bring what I wanted to study. Basically, that's the way I did it from the beginning us the way still recommend. It's not a purist approach by any means. I recommend people study what they think is interesting. So I used to bring whatever books I thought was interesting or songs or music, I even wrote some Chinese songs in poems with her. So that's what we would do we do a little bit of textbook work. But after that, we would just go off the trail and into the woods. Tastic? So it was the the content was always interesting because you're picking things that you were interested in right shooting. You know, she encouraged me to do that. I think she had more fun with it that way to right, right? Oh, that's fantastic. Are you still studying now or you just kind of picking up a little bit here? And there as you run into it. I always tell people I I have not studied diligently for years. I tell them I'm playing with Chinese. Gets to a point where you do that. Right. I mean like you have to consciously study at the beginning, especially because of the huge difference between English and Chinese. But then after a point I mean that sounds like the natural progression. Is you just start doing what you want with it? And then learn what you need to as you go. Right. That's putting my way in a very positive light. Yeah. I can see it both ways. Because I I mean, I guess it really depends on what you want, and what's your motivations? And what's your goals? I knew for for some of my friends who plan to use Chinese in a career. Let's say for an example or people who know implant to be tested in it and put the certifications on their resumes. Those friends of mine they have to diligently studies certain things day by day week by week month by month year by year to succeed in their endeavor here. So for me, I'm not worried about using Chinese in my job or for a test. So I just study what I like when I like, right, right? You know, with who I like, so I studied just off and on at study what I want. I studied poetry I study philosophy. I like I said I go to teach the teashop and I- studying talk about t-, topics. So what I know is very piecemeal very random. And so if frustrates me sometimes when conversation, I lack the words in the sentences to talk about very basic concept that I've skipped over right, but that's true. Right. Good english. I have the ability to talk about thirteen things more than others. I think most people do like, you know, more you have more of a cab either in the things you really enjoy doing and talking about. So I think the natural progression of just getting to a high level in languages. Of course, you're gonna learn more in the areas that you. Are interested in do you feel it without conscious studying they're losing a lot of the language? You learned or you think a lot of it's coming up as you're as you're reading and doing and speaking with it. I do think I do think I lose a lot of what I learned. But I told myself to just make your peace with that. I think it's because I'm going to be in China along time, and I hear Chinese a lot every day that I just I just tell myself, not there's no way you could hold it all so if you if you encounter a word or a sentence that you really think is so cool, then just write it down or type it down really quickly in your phone or keep a little notebook with you. But besides that, don't worry. If you can't remember something that came up, it'll probably come up again, you know. And that's that's my philosophy that that keeps me in the game. Because I'm the kind of person if I made a chore, or if I beat myself with the stick than I would give up right? So I do I adopt this philosophy. Keep. Myself on game. Right. Right. Right right now. I agree with that. It's tricky to keep going and to keep the motivation and to keep the interest like the content. Interesting all at the same time. Yeah. It's like it's like I wanna progress, but I want to stay motivated. And if I'm if I it's not a sprint. If you if you wanna get you gotta be in it for years. So you can't you can't you got to think about your motivation, encouraging yourself. Of course, you're going to forget stuff. Exactly. Yeah. And again in our first languages when we don't use them stuff. We'll forget it all the time. We'll be talking to each other. And be like what is that word? I just die. Yeah. I mean, not again that just sounds like that's sounds like language. I go home every year. And I tell them part of the reason I'm coming home to be with you guys is to ring my English. Yeah. Yeah. Do you? Find yourself functioning more in one language than the other on your in your daily life. Do you find that the things you read and listen to and and and right, and those kinds of things are more in Chinese than they are in English. No. I think if I totally honest, it's mostly I'm still kind of living in an English bubble to some extent. Because a lot of my news and social media is all English. And I can only imagine if I was if I was soaking up that much Chinese everyday where my Chinese being I think most of what's incoming is English improbably. Most of what's outgoing is English. I would have to say. And that's fair. I mean, it is the language that you can that you do the most in and culturally speaking, there is a difference between news English Newton Chinese and there's different viewpoints different kinds of things. Yeah. There are some people out there who when they come to China, they refuse to speak English. And if that works for them. That's great. I right. Yeah. It's right. They kind of they kind of up with that restriction on themselves. So, you know, for better or worse in you know, there's a million ways to Sunday, and some people may decide on only gonna watch Chinese TV only gonna watch Chinese cartoons. And they they they seriously. They put some kinds of restrictions on their on what kind of input language in have said that they can move faster. But for me, you know, it's still a lot of. And I want to improve my English. Actually, that's all my to do. So I actually studied English as well. In in what we do want to improve. Well, I noticed ever the years teaching English in China that might English is getting worse because language around not airy real. Yeah. What did you call language erosion? I love that time. I wish I had made it up. But it's actually I don't know where I picked it up. But somewhere along the line of either teaching or studying how to teach it came up, and I just went oh that that makes complete because if you're not using it, especially when you're you're in Asia, a lot of times, you're teaching lower level students, and you don't really use a lot of your language, and I found myself like watching and reading a lot of stuff that was much denser than I normally would because I just needed that kind of stretch linguistically, and I was just I stopped doing like fun things in English for well because I was just trying to kind of balance out my language. But but yeah, no. It's it's the thing. It's definitely a thing. And it happens in any language, not just your first language. But it's definitely a thing. You think because I was so fascinated by Chinese after a few years that sort of thinking now you've lost your fascination with English where did that go? As a young stir. I think I was so much more fascinated and had an imagination for English. So I I wanted to bring that back in keep developing, you know, especially as a teacher as a college too. And sometimes we have to do public, lectures, and speeches and open classes, and I felt like I still have the English of a twenty one year old or twenty year old. That's crazy. I'm I'm thirty one now, and I've been teaching at the college for many years than I my English has been stagnant. So one of the work on it. I totally understand why it's been a struggle to keep it. I think I've lost a lot especially in what used to now I think by living overseas. Also, I've kind of like, I think my language has become very dated to win. I let well exact little symphony US in graduate school. But that language isn't actually combinator used language either. Like, we are like the everyday language that people use I'm so so dated as far as like when I wreck the you enter basis like. Some of my when I was teaching at university in the US, and I'd say something, and my my nineteen year old American students would look at me like who said that any more. Apparently, I do. Teach that silly ten years ago. And I'm like, yeah. Let make sense about peer enjoying this conversation about the Chinese language and would like to participate if you're studying the Chinese language, or if you come from the Chinese language and of Lord languages, either perspective is greatly. Actually, both perspectives are greatly appreciated on this channel. Let's have a conversation. Let's take that sucker. And let's get it into this podcast, contact me. And let's at out the details on how to get you and your valuable language learning. Experience onto this podcast. All of my information is in the show. Also, all over social media except Facebook by Steph Puccio, S T H f you see CIO that includes g mail for my Email, Twitter, Instagram, tumbler, and Lincoln. So I look forward to hearing from you. Which isn't actually commonly used language either the everyday language that people use I'm so so dated as far as like when I left you on term basis like something when I was teaching at university in the US, and I'd say something, and my my nineteen year old American students would look at me like who said that any more. But I I do. Teach. That's silly ten years ago. And I'm like, yeah. Let make sense about the last time. I went in the US. Exactly. That's the fascinating thing about how language it erodes than it grows, and it changes, and it shifts like on some level. I think because I really like listening to other podcasts. And I think okay, I'm probably going to get some of the current flying in there. But now punk has have gotten so polished on some level. Like the level of language in casts has gone up. So it's not even like I'm getting that everyday slang either. So. Capture that the that language anymore. But then again, I don't like you. I don't really see myself going back to I don't know if I'll stay in China very long, but I don't see myself going back to the US anytime soon. So why do I need to? Yeah. Challenging installing. Yeah. I do know a bunch of folks that are doing there's like podcasting is starting to become a thing in China, and and podcast in Chinese are starting to become more popular. And my initial goal was reading because that I can take with me anywhere. I can look at it online. I can I'm much more comfortable writing than speaking. Anyway. So I could chat with people online by typing it in that kind of thing. But once I heard about podcasts taking off in Chinese. I was like, oh, no now I have to add a listening goal because that sounds like a really cool medium to include in my future listening. So. Yeah. Going back to reading do you ever? Find yourself reading the same thing in both languages like the same book or the same. Actually, that's one method. I didn't mention as I really liked to read children's books and Chinese. I have a collection of probably one hundred children's books and many of them are books that I read as a child and some of them are totally in Chinese. Some of them are half like one page is English. And and the next pages. Chinese or else has the English are may have the Chinese under the English. So I have a bunch of bilingual books. Yeah. Definitely. Cool. How did you start doing that? Like, what gave you the inspiration for that? What I might have thought. I I can't remember exactly when that started. But I probably thought to myself, you know, as a child, what did you do to learn you read books a lot with your parents? I told you that story. So I probably knew I at some point needed to get some Chinese children's books. But what happened is actually one day? I was in a Chinese a big Chinese market, and of all things there was a huge table there that day piled high with children's books out of the blue. This is a place. I gotta get vegetables a huge open-air vegetable market. I mean, they have some other things, but you know, how China is sometimes the most random things pop up. And so I had to have the opportunistic mindset I knew this could not be this might not be here tomorrow or next week. And I think I must have bought like twenty five books on the spot because they're only like five, quiet peace or something. So I bought a bunch and I came back. Every single day until she was gone. And I think I had like a hundred books by the time. She would left, you know. I don't know. Why didn't stay just to serve me? She probably could've made a fortune. But. Yeah. I was pulling out books that I was pulling out English children's books that are from like, the forties and the fifties with with the English erased and the same pictures, but the English is erased and Chinese has put in its place. So like famous English children's books from England and also the states and some from Canada ones that my parents read to me, and then more recently more modern books like the giving tree and stuff like this. So I stocked up on those and I do read those allot fire fan packed up. I heard some people fairly recently suggest that watching movies that you know. And I like having the language in the language your first link for me, having the language in England, the audio language in English, but having the subtitles in Chinese especially for me on a want to read, and that's one of the things that I'm. Hoping to start doing soon. And I feel like this is one of those things like you said something you enjoy doing first languid start doing the language that you're learning. Did you notice any differences between the language or the cultural aspects of the books? Even though the pictures were the same stories were basically the same. Did you pick up on any differences? Major some some, and I won't be able to think of this specific example. But sometimes things when they do the translation sometimes they have to put it in a way that the Chinese reader would understand. So you you look at it. And you're like, wow that they didn't translate it. Right. And it's like well. But no part of translation is you have to make it understood you have to make it understandable. So I I do notice that a lot, and I picked that up more and more as I learned the way Chinese people think about something in the way Chinese works. But for the most part, the children's books are a little more simple. And you I don't think you see a major difference. They do I mean, the translations pretty darn close. Right. Like, I I have tried to pick up late Chinese books for children. But I I found that the language was again in even before I was focusing. More reading I was trying to do. I don't know. It was just a mess. But I, but I found that between the cultural differences the stories, and the text it was just it was too much. But I think coming from a story, you know, and then doing it that way, and then the language the only difference. I think that would be a huge bump and understand. Yeah. That's a brilliant idea. Oh my goodness. I feel like there's a video series in there somewhere. But I feel like sure well, I know some people they there's been some popular channels where p like parents they read the books they they haven't video of them of the book, and you see their hand in the pages. Turn and they'll read the books in Chinese and English. So you can play that for your child. So your your child's watching a video, but it's basically showing the turning pages of a book. So I think that's a great idea. I love being right to I've always. Been a fan. Even I I read a lot. I've always always been a fan of like old school like radio shows and audio audiobooks and podcasts like I can't pick between written form an audio form. It's almost impossible. And I yeah, that's a nice bridge. Isn't it? That's a cool idea. It's a really cool idea because you're seeing hearing it, and you've got the pictures there too. So you're not really sacrificing a ton. I mean, it's not cuddling up in somebody's lap. But as far as as far as I'm concerned, I don't I don't need that right now as an adult so McKay, if they can find a way to put arms on the computer, some sort of Android, then that can raise your child for you. I'm seeing more and more giant stuffed animals around stores in Shanghai. So I'm sure those existed. I'm seeing more and more robots to like baby. Robots? I don't know what they do yet. But I keep seeing them in tech stores. Yeah. It's coming. It's so coming. Yeah. No. There's so much that people are doing with video now that if you had told me five years ago, I would have been like, oh, why would why would anybody watch that? But honestly, some of it. I find myself watching and really liking it steady with me videos. I thought oh my God. There's going to be so boring to watch. And as I'm watching people study, I'm like, oh, they do that. Or maybe I should try out. And like this should be the most boring thing in the world to watch. But yet, I'm totally enwrapped with what they're doing with highlighter. And they're they're how they're like putting things in their notebook in different kinds of things. It's just it's ridiculous. There was a saying that I heard an encouraging saying that if you are interested in something you can find other people who are too. So I think these people kind of operate under that philosophy thigh like highlighting this word or turning this book, and re recording the reading of a book there's going to be other people who want this. And they're right with Nathan podcasts and can play podcasts and they were talking about. They were talking about elevator videos in YouTube. It's just people going into different elevators and taking short videos of it. And they were laughing at it. And I thought actually that might be kind of interesting if it was different places around the world. That might be interesting, and they're totally making fun of it. And I'm going oh, surely. Well, I want this. Now, I'm going to drag this conversation a little bit off topic. But I recently watched a Ted talk where a person they were talking about the danger of YouTube auto play how parents let their children watch YouTube in in three or four videos. The child can be watching something horribly inappropriate. You know, you start with the Disney movie. And then like three audio plays later, you're in the dark realm and one one thing that he talked about was there's a insanely popular style of videos where people just open, these toys eggs. I don't know if you've seen this. But it's it's basically they they just have these eggs with little toy inside. And the person rips off the wrapping opens it shows, the toy goes to the next eg. And so there's millions of these videos and they're taking over the world. They're taking over children's mind because children love to see some. One opened the present. And so the kids get addicted to this little, but anyway, you know, anything can get popular for any variety of reasons. But almost hard to predict what is the next popular thing. Right anyway. Yep. Yep. Yep. That's interesting. Okay. That is when that doesn't sound like when I would watch. But but but there are so many that. I would. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. If it was on my God. You're right. I have no bounds. I will watch anything once. So I find myself in China because they do a lot with glass and the in a lot of hotels and stuff because I used to travel least you'll be going up the elevator with the glass wall. And you'll start to see better better views of the city, and I'm like, that's kind of cool. I would do that. I would make those videos and share them and stuff. So anyway, yeah, we we have we have gone off track. But it's part of the whole creature. I mean, this this fair this podcast is connected to a language blog where there are videos of ridiculous things that nobody should watch. And yet people are watching it listeners look forward to our next vlogger of going upstairs in different countries. I did I did one where I was doing graffiti in my stairway of my apartment because I was like I don't know what the stuff says yet. But I think it's interesting that this is just here. Like, the stairway is just I'm I'm sure I've should mine own pointed a little ad stuck in there and whatnot. It's just anything in China in hanzel right now, I will take a picture of anything yesterday. I was in a cafe it was one of the beautiful really like clean kind of modern would looking airy cafe with the kind of spiral staircase. And I went to the bathroom, and there's all this clutter in the bathroom and in this corner or these two paint like plastic paint contain. Owners with a used brush with dried paint on top. But they're the hands characters were. And I didn't know what it said. I can't read painting Chinese, right? So I'm just like oh my God. There were these characters. I don't know quick take a picture. Yeah. Anyway, it's funny because I'm like I in this bathroom wasn't multitasking. But before I left the bathroom, I crouched down under the sink where the stuff was and took a picture of that. Because there was language that somebody's using to know how to paint this that color, this dot colored that's paints for this thing this paints for that thing. Right. It could have. But it was but it was on the on the candidate self. So I don't think they would have had no pictures on caring. Yeah. I know the irony. I imagine at some point I m taking a picture of something that says, no pictures, but I can't read that yet. Well, no, I I think I know no like inside form. But yeah, I don't know. Anyway, so future language schools because it sounds like you're just doing things that are in the areas that you want to using the language. So is that. I'm all about goal setting. My I definitely want to keep improving my Mandarin, and I wanna get over to the teashop more and have more conversations. And I am now I I have a goal to learn the basics of Cantonese because I live in Guangdong province. I live in the homeland of Cantonese food, and culture and language, and when I arrived here about a year ago, I realized wow, I I'm not in Kansas anymore that I had learned Mandarin for maybe six years. And now everybody around me, speaking Cantonese, and they they use Mandarin for transactions and for school and stuff, and for meetings may be but besides that their mother tongue is Cantonese and all my students a lot of them their their first language languages Cantonese. So I thought this is opportunity, and it's fun. So yeah, the basics of canton is would be a goal of. Mine I live right now differences between Cantonese Mandarin. What striking news the biggest? I'm not I'm not worried too much about the writing. I was at first. But then I thought that you never riot. Silly to force yourself to be good writer when you don't when you're not gonna use it. That's just trying to keep up with the Joneses with people who have different goals from you. You're not going to be ready in Chinese. You don't even want to. You're not interested in that. So don't force yourself to do that. But the that said the care some of the characters are the same some of them are written differently. Some of them are pronounced similarly or the same some are pronounced differently. The what I really like. And what gives me a leg up is the sentence structures are the same as far as I can tell so I just need to learn how to pronounce the words differently, but how you set up your sentences, and basically have your conversation as very similar again as far as I can tell as a beginner. So there's basically six tones some people will say there's nine, but I think in the. In the recently revised system that I use the ping system. They say there's really only six tones, but but again same approach to Mandarin. I'm not gonna worry too much about the tones. You know, an I I've gone Allen. I've spoken a little Cantonese, and I can make myself understood. So I'm not going to let that hold me back just the same as Mandarin. It seems a little bit more sing song a little bit more cut up then Mandarin. And when I spoke some to my parents, they said, you know, that sounds like Vietnamese to me, and I did a little research. And I realized there's millions of Cantonese speakers in Vietnam. I did not know that. Zone. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. So it's part of the I guess the Pearl River, delta, Cantonese language, culture that has has moved and spread out of South China. I guess going into Vietnam. And I don't know how similar Vietnamese sounds to canton is. But my parents saw aren't speaking Vietnamese. So now, it's Cantonese. So it sounds a little bit more choppy. I would say the Mandarin. But I I like Salat fun often. That's really cool. All right. Yeah. No. I hadn't ever thought about that bout that, but that makes sense that makes a lot of sense, and is choppier and in madman input on wa it. There are more like sounds than the Orange Buick news. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting whom? Okay. Really, really cool. If we're if we're, you know, emphasizing language learning. That's that is my that's one of my jobs is making language learning card games. I have a company called language card games, language card games dot com. And I did that because that is one way that I like to learn and play and I couldn't find language learning games. That would satisfy me the there's a lot of great carbs and flash cards out there. I think for beginners and beginners of language learning beginners of a language and also for children, but I couldn't find something more complex more intriguing more for intermediate level, gamers, anguish learners. So I just said about started making some games, and I've I've made a game for Mandarin Chinese, it's called Chinese champions. And I've made to. I've made to Chinese champion. So there's Chinese champions one and China's champions two, and it's intermediate level game. It's quite challenging and difficult to play. I mean, if you're a gamer, you might not think that bad, and I'm I'm really proud of the second one actually think Chinese champions two if your listeners are you have a chance, I think you should check it out on I really feel like Chinese champions two was has been my masterpiece. So far of all my games because it has photography from my travels around China. So yeah, the the photography is from is all my own photography through my travels in different provinces. So it's it's kind of chronicles my journey. And also the words to and I've included some stories that I wrote in Chinese with the game. So it's Chinese stories. You know, it goes. Leep and I'm really proud of it. So if if any gamers are listening, definitely check out Chinese champions off, and they're beautiful beautiful creatures or told you this up previously. I'm not a gamer. But when I when I got the win the set that you sent me, and I opened it. I was like oh my God. Like, the quality of the cards and the the like how beautiful and how structurally strong they are. And how many I'd like the different pieces of the game in the just the case. I mean, it you can tell how much time and effort you put into it. And then it was a labor of love. It was just phenomenal. Thank you so much. You know, I I made a big mistake. Because I meant the moment we got on the phone. I meant to say thank you so much for doing that review. I wanted to thank you in person. But we had some we have some connection difficulties right off the bat, and I forgot, but I showed your video to my family and some of my friends and. Everybody loved it. And they loved you. And they loved your bubbly presentation of and we just all of it was so great. So really, thank you, something that came out of a genuine respect to what you had created funny because I don't know if you listened or watch the interviews I did with Il who's from England who learned Tiny's in China actually outside and then in China, and he actually just he was in Shanghai for a year on an internship, and he just moved back to Nanjing and before he left I still had the card game. You sent me. And I was like this is like the most perfect thing ever because he's a massive gamer, and he's very much into science fiction. Yeah. He's reading science fiction in Chinese like that how how deep into the language he's gotten. And so when he was about to leave I was like, wait a minute. This is perfect. It's useless for me, and it needs to live in the world. And and he talking about all this stuff 'cause I gave it to him through my husband because he saw him just before he left. And apparently, he was super pleased. And I haven't checked in yet because they moved things are kind of a mess at first. But I'm definitely going to check in and see what he's done with it. See if I can coerce him to do video for you in that kind of thing. 'cause yeah. But yeah, I just wanted to that you know, it's made it into into hands that will use it. So. Yeah. Yeah. So awesome. Okay. So thank you so much. I really appreciate you doing this. You're welcome. Thank you for having coupon doing what you're doing. I wish you continuing success with your channel. I will stay tuned for short. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the changing scripts podcast, again, if you are learning the Chinese language, or if you're coming from the Chinese language learning another language, I'd love to interview you for this podcast. Please feel free to contact me. Any social media way that you see God and contact me, and we will hash out how to get you on the sound creation. No knows the changing scripts podcast. A lot more coming your way soon.

China US Japan YouTube Asia China Guay Lynn Guangxi provin TA Jay Jackson Virginia Guangxi Matt Washington apple Jerry Schule Taina Dave Steph Puccio Guang Joe Guangdong
Live Podcasting Events In The Beforetime with Nicole of the Expat Cast Podcast

Geopats Podcasting

08:27 min | Last month

Live Podcasting Events In The Beforetime with Nicole of the Expat Cast Podcast

"Hey there this is steph from steph. Uchi dot com with another episode of japan's podcasting so this episode was published last month during nepad pomo national podcast posting month. Every day that month crazy podcasters like myself posted a podcast episode. But since the gop now pod promo feed only really has new content. Once a year in november. I wanted to add the episodes that related to this podcast on here so you can get them easily. I will tell you what we did exactly during the month of november in just a second but let me mention one more quick thing for you. During the month of november we also had a fundraising event. Where i was aiming for. Thirty coffees in thirty days from by mia coffee dot com forward slash. Go pats. we reached twenty. Three out of thirty coffees which i am very happy with considering that we started about eight days into the month. If you enjoy what. I'm asking you is if you enjoy any or all of our episodes to please feel free to go to buy me a coffee. Dot com forward slash. Go pets don't forget the s. and by mia coffee. That would be fantastic. Okay so what do we do in november i. I was moving countries from germany to albanian. Organizing this just before november. So i asked my guest to help me out previous guests of all of the podcast and i sent out a list of quick questions and i asked them to do. Two things. one was to reflect back on their original episode or conversation with me and two was to update us on their life since that interview. Now some of these interviews are from two in three years ago so there's quite a bit of updates that happened and it was really really interesting and moving to hear some of the things that they've been up to and and so on Now i intentionally didn't focus too much on covert most of the month but i did devote an entire episode to how his covert affected your life later on in the month. And i'm not gonna add that to this feed. 'cause i don't think that's necessarily content related but i will put the link to that in the show notes in case you want to hop over to the nepad pomo feed and have listened to that one. That is all if you would like to comment on any of this. My handle is s. T. e. p. h. f. u. c. i o. That is my twitter. My instagram miami dress and my website. So you have everything you need to send any message anytime. You want to communicate. And i'll be back with new episodes in january and in february we'll start with the albanian episodes and so on and so forth right. Thank you so much. For listening to this any and all of our episodes. I really really truly appreciate you being here. Whatever you celebrate at this time of the year even if it's just that the year's over like i'm celebrating. I really really hope you stay safe and sane and find a little bit of joy in something. That's happening right now. It's been a crazy year. It's been a crazy year but we did it. We're almost to the end. And who knows what twenty twenty one is going to bring us all right here we go. Hello there this is nicole from the x. Podcast and. I'm sure from the germany experience. We both host podcasts. About what it is like to live as an expert in germany and we are sworn rivals as sworn rivals. We like to celebrate christmas with a bit of cut-throat rivalry. Don't nicole that's right listeners. it is time for sega. Pod which is the second ever. Germany ex pat podcasters advent donation faceoff roles off the tongue. Doesn't it totally so you might remember lost year. We did figurehead vote. Which was the first ever. Germany expert podcast advent donation basil. We competed to see who could raise more money for their charity of choice. This year we have put our differences aside and agree on one charity and that is uber in And uber dean is an organization that brings together germans and foreigners over a plate of food to swap about each other's cultures improve language skills and overall promote respect and kindness and every sunday until christmas. We will give you updates on either one of us shows so subscribe to either. The expect cost all the germany experience. As to how it's going and we'll also be having challenges exactly and whoever loses this year and has not raised more money than the other person by christmas day will be declared the loser and they will have to face consequences and what consequences are those nicole. They're going to have to listen to find out what they can visit the website. Which is the germany experience dot de slash charity. Twenty twenty or even better as subscribe to the expert cast subscribe information germany experience. No no not subscribe to the expectations. It's going to be and we also get to hear once again nicole smacktalk which is something that. I'm very excited about this year. I had a whole year. To think of some really mean diggs some insults and saying and just brace yourself smack. Talks be so good christmas. I can feel the christmas bird. We really hope you'll play along. Lv doing oh feeder horn. Welcome to the. Gop's podcast network. This is a special nad. Pod polo national podcast posting month episode. This month different guests from various. Gop podcasts are coming back on the show to check in but with a twist. So many moons nicole. Palau's oh i am an american who lives in freiburg germany and i put out a podcast about it and it's called the ex pack cast. I was on the pets. Podcasting episode number one about a year. Maybe thirteen fourteen months ago. I guess at this point. We talked about an upcoming event that i had at the time. It was actually a cool episode because we testing pod beans new live podcasting tools and i was promoting an event that i was doing in freiburg. Alive event for international podcasting day. So lots of podcasts. Good and it's happening in episode. I liked listening back because it reminded me that i did that in the thirteen. Fourteen months then. My life looks really really different. Gone through a lot not least of which global pandemic breaks out and things get a little different so actually this year. I did not participate in international podcasting day at all so it was really nice to look back at a time when i did do something and it was a was a great success. So that's what. I can share a little bit about in the episode. We talked about how the event was going to be set up and that is going to have a panel with some other podcasters located in freiburg. But they are actually german podcasters. We're going to compare different approaches. And then i was going to do a live Recording of the ex pack cast and that all went really really well it was so cool to hear from the other podcasters and learn a little bit about different approaches and different funding structures etc. And then the live episode itself was a lot of fun and i was able to put that episode out later in my podcast feed and yeah we have forty to fifty people come out and it was just a wonderful time that i'd really like to do again in a post covid world. Another thing. I talked about in the episode. Was that the german podcast. Scene was really starting to emerge. I definitely continued to observe that. I still don't listen to any german language. Podcasts myself not at least on the regular. I'm always open to suggestions. I just haven't found any shows that really grabbed me the way that my millions of npr. Podcasts really hold my attention. I'm less participant but a fully felt the effects of the podcast industry emerging in germany. And i would say especially over quarantine a lot. More people started putting podcasts. Both in the experts fear and in germany in general. That's been a lot of fun to see. It's fun to be part of an ever growing community are it was fun to check back in. Thank you guys for listening. If you wanna follow me my podcast is called the ex pat cast and you can find that on your podcast of choice and you can find me on instagram or twitter at the ex. Pat cast a rate until then heavy great november by choose.

germany steph mia coffee nicole pat podcasters nicole smacktalk gop Germany japan freiburg Gop sega miami twitter diggs Palau npr instagram Pat
Ep 20: Connections: Post HSK 3 feedback & What Matthew said about Community

Changing Scripts: Conversations about Mandarin Chinese with native speakers and learners

21:38 min | 2 years ago

Ep 20: Connections: Post HSK 3 feedback & What Matthew said about Community

"Welcome to the changing scripts podcast every Sunday. We'll have one of two types of episodes all of them were robbing around learning and using Mandarin. Chinese one type of episode will be my updates on. What I'm learning? How I'm learning it different quirks within language and sometimes information about China itself since I am living in trying high China right now the second type of that zone where I'm interviewing people as it or either learning the language like I am or people who grew up with Mandarin Chinese and the learned other languages the updates used to be on a YouTube channel. But have now migrated over into the podcast. The interviews started on the YouTube channel as well. And they very quickly ended up on the podcast. So everything's been kind of going back and forth. Now, having said that the podcast is also available to listen on its own YouTube channel check the show notes, and you can find the link to the YouTube channel dare it's just an audio form if you are studying Mandarin Chinese have steady Mandarin Chinese I'll whether it be a child doesn't it don't you're currently studying you're currently used. The language. I would love to interview you. So please contact me. These kinds of podcasts are passion projects created from a place of deep interest, and they need to find other people that have those interests in the best way to do that is word of mouth. So you can go fill out an apple podcast review. If you really want to. But honestly, I'd much rather you tell a few of your friends about this podcast. Thank you so much, and let's dive into the episode. All right. Here's my posts. H is case three. Information are I just took the test. I just finished about half an hour ago. I live in Shanghai China. And so my test center in profusion who probably be different if you're not taking at exact center that I took it out. So keep that in mind, they'll be things that'll be the same in they'll things that will be different. So the might third test. It's the third I took ages K one at nature's Ketu in paper form earlier this year and ages K three I actually chose to take in computer for him because the writing when I write in Chinese I'm going to type in whether it be on my computer or on my phone. So I really wanted to have that practice with protests to make his realistic as possible. So I chose. I wasn't fully ready for all that was going to happen. So I'll tell you the good and the bad parts. Order should I tell you a minimal next to test center because it's raining like crazy outside and I wanted coffee. To celebrate it being over. Okay. So the good stuff the test center. I was on. It was very clear would you in? And where the test won. They started the on time. They finished the test. One time equipment worked those kinds of things. So all of those details were fairly, well, the bad thing term, mostly technical in nature and keep in mind that I do like which testing reliving. And so I'm hyper critical things that get in the way of the tense to happening. So not this just I don't work on the age gate. Okay. So the first thing that I noticed is thoughts. We're very different the fonts are very different from the questions or the sentences at the top two things that you needed to match with them. There were different fonts different sizes. And there was a lot of pixelated with the thoughts with the Honda characters. Now, I've already struggled to learn like typed, very clear type tons of characters. I've learned to read my messy handwriting and the third one is in. The course book, the standard course book. That I've been using for all of the ages K three levels all came up to three and they're really good series. I've talked about them and other videos. They also use a kind of calligraphy script. And so I've gotten used to that one over the past few weeks this. That were used in the test weren't really like any of those. It was really difficult because during the test when I'm ready very very stressed out. I had to get used to another. Okay, fine. Look everybody rates to me different. People might use different fonts when I'm reading their emails later on in the future, you whatever. Okay, fine. Just tweeted refund. But the spacing between the words. Don't the space in between the reserves nuts trains spacing between the letters. Now. What am I saying the spacing between the lines varied? Sometimes it was enough where the characters for the words didn't touch each other from line to line. And sometimes they kind of overlapped and made the words a little blurry. And that made it hard to read. There was no way zoom in on the screen, and I did already have reading classes on. So I just kept doing manual soon to get closer to the screen. But because it was physically slurred like the phones were slurring together. Not the words for certain together. It was hard who is hard to understand what some of the words were. So I did what I could. And it was a very time tests. I could spend a lot of time going back and forth on another thing is that when they have like four options at the top. But all the things that you're matching it to go down. You have to scroll up down when you scroll the options of the top went away. When you got to the bottom stuff. I know it seems minor. But when you're going back and forth between a list and not it really don't make a difference that you can actually see the list the whole time. Now, if you know expel very well, Microsoft excel, you know, that you can freeze frame at the top. And and then you can scroll down at the bottom. You can do that with coats. Well, I've done that while making stuffed her website. So that is something that does exist. It's not like, it's big. You can't do it kick just isn't done in this case. So that made it a little bit more challenging the example, one was in there just like it is the fractious materials, but they actually made it available. So that you could accidentally choose the example answer as part of your answers thought such you just blocked out. And I thought that was kind of weird my boss do think my left negative thing is during listening. You can't jot down notes on anything I tend to look at the transcript, which of course, you can't do during the test. But when I practice. As I look at the transcript, I break down key words, I tend to do them in Pinon L because I'm not very good at writing the characters themselves yet if I ever get that way. So you can't you can't make any notes. So you just have to listen and decide listen and decide between what's on the screen is really hard to do. And I definitely didn't practice that way. So if there's anybody taking the computer test, and you haven't practiced that way, I would get used to not taking those because it was really disconcerting to switch. My nothing. Well, I was doing. So that something I would definitely practice and not do like I did and be shocked by there are a lot of shocking things. I'm issue that was my last negative thing. But I do have to mention it's been a high tension week this week, and although it went from like two hundred QA to one hundred it was hovering around one hundred day, and they had the windows open, and I tend to get pollution headaches pretty quick, and I couldn't move for the twenty minutes before the test where we just there waiting for the test to start as well as an hour and a half. Of the cell. I had to sit there and breathe it in. I didn't even bring them my mass because it didn't even dawn on me that it wouldn't be a safe clean environment. I don't know why thought they would have tons of European affairs and things in the room. Why would they do that? I don't know. It's just a test slump subsidaries just to language school. Why would they have? So anyway, if you're taking you to keep testing winter in China you, and you are sensitive to these kinds of things like I am then you probably want to make sure you probably want to check out your test center head of time or you might very well want to wait until spring about half the years. Good, very, low collusion, relatively low pollution and the other half is just absolutely shed. So that may be maybe a factor something to know. Oh, okay. I did say that was the last negative thing. But just when I don't know if this is standard. We're this is the term went to you. But we supposed to show up a half hour beforehand and check in and then they let us to our computers. And that's where we sat for after all of the checking in was done to putting our backs away that kind of thing because you can't have your anything, except you and like classes or seemed to be the only things related to have on. You even coasts, even though they kept reduce open seem to be something that they did not allow so we sat there on quickly all of us in room. There may be I think maybe twenty of us sat there staring at the computer screens waiting for the test to start it doesn't count down on the screen. But you're just sitting there in these super hard chairs with all of this pollution air coming in. We will be waiting for the test start, and we're not talking because technically attested tuition so can't really have conversations with the people are asking is very very strange, really strange. If I were them. I would just say once you check didn't start the contest, but I on some level. I understand everybody has to start on time. And on the other hand. I don't think we should be there a half hour ahead of time. Anyway, that's picky. But generally girl, I feel like the test was pretty on par with the test materials. I feel like the course books yet. Again, did prepare me for it. I did feel the things that I was if EON I'm still feeling of things I felt like I hadn't spent enough time on I still felt like I could spend more time on it. They're things that I knew that showed up and I felt like I really really well. So I feel like it was a good gauge of where I am the level. And I do feel like I need to. Spend a lot of time going back because there's a lot of really important meaningful stuff in this level. And and I don't want to just push on through Asia's k four or to any other content getting it because I really the more use the standard Chris books to study the more. I realize that they actually are really good way. To learn this language, and I don't think I've ever really set of language before given the flaws of some funky conversations that are just like, okay. That's that's there to just about Chinese culture. And that one's just kind of weird in that wins, an overlap of Chinese culture, but not really explained doesn't really make sense in the translation. The translation, but just issues. Bizarre. Ignoring all of that. I think it was pretty inaccurate test of the level. The last thing I'll say is the accent. They had the same put this. They had the same man and the same woman throughout the entire forty questions of listening, and the accident is the man I feel like I can almost pinpoint on a map of China. And it wasn't any of the the accents that that were in. The course books that I was studying, and this is really a flawed the test. This seems to be a flaw of my studying the people that make the test aren't the ones that put out. The course books that I I don't think they do. I don't think they're the ones who make. The course books that I'm studying. But it only makes sense that you have different accents. Now personally for the test. I would have had difference different voices for the different parts of the test. They're like in groups of five since I five and so they're in groups of fives. And so I think I think it may have been a bitter gauge of your flexibility the language if they had different voices from different people with different accents in each part. But that's just a really nit picky thing. Again. I'm in language testing. I used to language teach allot. So these are very very quickly things. I'm glad they did they did a different accent than what I've been hearing. What I studied. Because it it really kicked by ask into what I've been doing wrong with my study. I really liked the first folks, I'm using. But I really really think that they need to expand out what I'm listening to. So I can get used to different accents. Because there are many. And I feel like I've been a little bit lazy on that French. So I feel like that was actually a really good thing. That they did. Although I think they could've needed even better overall. I'm glad I be a just came into three this year. However, I would never push the rich as free in six months unless you were doing intensive and or you like. We're using the language daily basis and just had that kind of feedback coming actor. I just if you're self studying only two hours a day. I would never do this six months, and if anybody's into doing that than I say, no don't do it because I have to go back and spend another three months or longer trying to fix what I just did which is fine because learning comes in layers anyway, anyway, so this is my overview of may just three test. I'm Charlotte think of something else. But I wanted to give you an impression immediately after the test. Really glad I didn't. But. I think it's time slowdown the little bit and and breathe fear. Enjoying this conversation about the Chinese language and would like to participate if you're studying the Chinese language, or if you come from the Chinese language of Lord languages, either perspective is greatly. Actually, both perspectives are greatly appreciated on this channel. Let's have a conversation. Let's take that sucker. And let's get it into this podcast contacts me and lets out the details on how to get you. And your valuable language learning. Experience onto this podcast. All of my information is in the show. Also, all over social media except Facebook by Steph Puccio, S T H F U C C, I o that includes g mail for my Email, Twitter, Instagram, tumbler, and Lincoln. So I look forward to hearing from you. But anyway, I wanted to do a quick update. Connecting to some things that Matt said in the recent interview that was posted with Matt Boyle as well as my own update and skin the kind of slurred them together. His it spin quite a challenge getting back on track with everything else in life post ages K test put a lot of stuff off in order to study for the last month to really cut a solidify as much as I could try to catch up with life right now. So this is going to be a very quick video. But I do want to give tangible things that can help you with your own Mandarin Chinese language learning. Because if nothing else I would like to provide something useful for you guys. That are learning the language along with me because I'm still in the learning. I don't know if I'll ever be in the using phase. We'll see what happens that community. Matt mentioned a few times how he likes to go to the same teashops and talk to the same people and get deeper and deeper into the conversation. You mentioned talking to the same people over and over and deepening the conversation each time, you talk to them, and I do well with that kind of a community again mentioned in the interview with Matt a lot of the places I go to they turn over so quickly that I can't even have this conversations when I do feel like a connector wanna get to know, somebody more, and there's some other factors. I'm just not. I don't know. I'm just not very good at small talk is any language. So I feel like that's not the way that could work for me. However, I wanted to share with you these two ways of doing it Matt's way as going to the same place talking to the same people for put changing the compensation questions learning more from each other you go on both connection wise, and for you, the language learner, language wise. And then another way you can do it the way that I've done it and not that you have to choose between these two, but I think these are two different ways that you can certainty do votes could certainly do belts. So the other way is online you don't necessarily have to be in front. The German producer on podcast, but you can connect with people online, and I want to share with you what I've learned over the past couple of years. Being language learner online. It's pretty active communities. I would say by far the most active language learning community is on here on YouTube by far, and how do I knew that? Because police cap I stopped doing the videos for few weeks and the engagement that I had with the savings that content justness Petur way down, and I missed it. I thought maybe I was just doing it for the numbers though. I didn't think but I just I wasn't sure that my motivations were. Language-learning oriented more started to question. Why was making videos was I just hamming it up and having fun there were they actually learning, and I did feel like I missed you guys comments. And so I put a couple more videos on this channel. And then repurpose them for the cast the comments that you guys gave me for the videos. You came back you came back, and you come into MU said, some really useful very nice thing. And I missed talking to you guys. And I think YouTube because we're their comments are is so much easier to have that kind of engagement than anywhere else at this point in time, and that could probably change in the future. But for now, that's where it is. The other place is Instagram study Graham is a good place to share setting in general, so Instagram study grants a good place. I've talked to thought somebody recently who has Chinese study grandma's that one of the hash tags are using. And I was like, hey, I'm gonna follow that one now too. So I'm following. Chinese study Graham, which is where people just post things that they're working on with obviously clinic vendor Chinese so that's a really useful place to connect with. And so these are the two main areas that I found others one Twitter to at the beginning of specially I was on Twitter a lot, but for technical reasons being in China Twitter, even look to be peon have been really really hard to stay on. But I did find a language learning community on Twitter early on. And then I got kicked off so many times. So I kinda fell off Twitter, but Twitter is a nice place to connect with folks who are also learning languages personally. Now that I've been on Instagram for a little while I like the visual of it with the Chinese with Mandarin Chinese because the hunter characters as you know, are one of the reasons why I like to learn this language and visual nece comes through a lot better in Instagram than it does on Twitter, I know Twitter pictures, but it's not it didn't start out as a visual social media outlets. It just it. Has a very different audience. So in order of engagement, I would say YouTube even just as a watcher. You don't have to create a channel. Like, I did like a lot of folks, did you can be an active an active viewer on YouTube, and then after YouTube, I would say Instagram, and then I would say Twitter I have heard that medium like people post a lot of of articles on medium. I have heard that. That's very popular. I heard that the Chinese Reddit feet is very popular. I haven't dug into these. I have some physical issues with my. Wrists and shoulders. So I have to kind of limit how much time I spend on nine and how much time I spent on a computer and how much time I spend sitting down. So I haven't in all fairness check those out. But I have had people send me different groups in different links all over I think the most important part is to pick a spot where you already are talking to people and then go over into the Mandarin Chinese learning section of that area. Because then you're ready familiar with how the platform works on. So you don't have to relearn all of that you just relearn people or meet new people. So there's that. So I think community is by far the biggest aspect, and it doesn't have to be that. You don't have to immerse yourself in the new society and only speak the language around. You only Mercer's like talk to an only talk to the locals. I think that way can be very isolating and that might work for some people in a big does stick with that. If you're not that person. Like, I'm not do anything else that work. The important thing that I want to stress at the interview with Matt is one community to it doesn't have to be the same way that other people use community and three. You don't have to just talk to the people who speak that language. You can use the language you're trying to learn with anybody who's using it or learning at sea really really don't have to be an in the box kind of language learner unless that works for you. Again, it's all about works for you. I can't stress that enough. And there's another interview coming next week says, stay tuned chain Knicks continues on thank you so much for listening to this episode of the changing scripts podcast, again, if you are learning the Chinese language, or if you're coming from the Chinese language learning another language, I'd love to interview for this podcast. Please feel free to contact me in any social media ways that you see fit God and contact me, and we will hash out how to get you on the sound creation knows the changing scripts podcasts. A lot more is coming your way soon.

YouTube Twitter China Matt Boyle Instagram Shanghai China apple Knicks Microsoft Asia Pinon L Mercer producer Graham Charlotte Facebook Chris Steph Puccio
The Amazon Threat Forces Grocers To Go High-Tech

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

27:25 min | 1 year ago

The Amazon Threat Forces Grocers To Go High-Tech

"In today's equity markets the devil's in the details boxes and lines a new podcast from I. E. X. Dives into those details whether you're a traitor not boxes in line is the podcast for the financial professional professional who wants to understand the incentive structures and technology underpinning our capital markets. Welcome to the Bloomberg PNL. PODCAST I'm Paul All suny along with my co-host the Promo each day. We bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for you and your money whether at the grocery store or the trading floor find a Bloomberg pl podcast on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. As well as at Bloomberg Dot Com you know an Amazon bought whole foods for fourteen or fifteen billion dollars. I thought to myself at the time. Why would they want to get in to the grocery business? It's a low margin highly intensive competitive business. Why would they want to kind of get away from their cool tech and an home delivery and all that kind of stuff? But they're they're they're sticking with it and I think they are actually increasing their investments. And that's forcing the Industry The supermarket industry to respond with their own technology matthew boyle US reporter for Bloomberg News joins US live here on Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio to help us break it down so matthew give us a sense of what the supermarket market industry is doing to try to fend off. Where compete with Amazon? Yeah well they need to do something I mean. They're in a war of attrition right now and they're losing and and I'm talking about traditional supermarkets. You know places like Kroger which just earlier this year had throw out there long-term guidance because they they couldn't get a store remodel right so you're talking about traditional supermarkets that are getting squeezed and not just by Amazon by companies. Like all this German import which is very deep discount with the call. Hard discounters where. It's a lot of store brands and a very spartan store experience but people don't mind if you give them what they want at a price. You know that's affordable. They don't need a lot of the bells and whistles so the grocers are getting it from all sides the traditional grocery stores they need to think differently and so they're looking to technology. Some of which Amazon is has is already adopted or is adopting as ways to not. Just you know make shoppers go. ooh Wow look at all these funky bells and whistles but just to sort of get the basics right and solve some some operational problems that will hopefully lift those margins that you mentioned that are always so razor thin you also suggested that. Perhaps they could hide under a desk in the fetal position but that might the best business other industries have industries have done that and it is a business model that has been adapted not necessarily successfully one statistic in your story that I thought was really compelling was that food retailers globally about three hundred and twenty five billion dollars a year due to items being out of stock is this type of technological challenge inch that could be fixed by having the right program. That understands what you have. I mean I don't WanNa say fixed but it will certainly help. I mean what is easier. You know you've got these days you have of to hire people to literally walk down the aisles. It could take hours and take them away from other tasks. Let's say like filling an online ordering getting that out to a shopper. In doing something more value added these robots that we talk about in the story that just sort of meander up and down the aisles checking for out of stocks for missing the items in the company. I spoke to giant Eagle which is a great Pittsburgh Midwestern based retailer. They saw a twenty one percent reduction in in out of stocks in the one store where they've had this robot the longest I gotta say in this in this technological revolution that were in the problems that people are discovering in the solutions. Stock the the shelves. Yeah I mean and how much how much money and how much time can be put into the idea of be better. Yeah exactly so matthew if you can the. I'm thinking about walking down the aisle of a supermarket and seeing that worker with the kind of the price confident of are those days. You do that one summer time you did you are those days. That's still with US things which I didn't even write about. But those robots we mentioned and if you add electronic shelf labels electronic shelf tags to replace the did unto the sticker gun that can that will benefit even more so the use of those shelf stocking robots when you just have electronic shelf tags so there's a lot of fun but again it's slow adoption. A big problem here is that the grocers are very risk-averse. They WanNa do what their dad do their grandfather did. This is the way we've always run this store. This is what's worked in the past. But they again. They're starting to get a little bit more adventurous here. It's more than that though. I mean a lot of these companies operating on pretty small margins right. This is not a get rich. Quick kind of business ness and you have to make investment in order to succeed against the Walmarts of the world the Amazons of the world. So can you give us a sense of how they're doing and yet how they're investing if they're able to invest given the overhang of their. This is not get rich. Quick this is not die. This is don't go away. Don't come the next years So they're making investments doing that. Exactly you know they have to make. This is at the same time. Look at Walmart. They're also paying all of their workers more you know they've had to increase just they're starting minimum wage in many cities New York included. You know you've talking about a fifteen dollars minimum wage. So they are making investments in their people but these investments in technology which are increasing. What they will not make them though if they don't get a clear return on investment and that's why a lot of what we're seeing just now pilots a couple of stores here twenty twenty stores there figure out what's working tweak it so we're not gonNA see wide scale universal adoption of these technologies for probably years and there've been technologies over the past twenty five years that we thought were going to change the way we shopped and they haven't because it was a lot of Gee whiz stuff that didn't really provide an R. Y.? So Amazon again the the I call it dipping their toe with this whole foods. Acquisition dipping their toe into the supermarket business. Is there any sense that they're going to maybe do more than dip their toe. I think we've got a foot in there now. It's more than a toe you know. It started with whole foods of course but just in recent weeks. We've had a lot of news from them. They are going to open a traditional more traditional lower priced than whole foods grocery chain starting in La. They have slashed or eliminated the additional fee that they charge for their prime customers customers to do Amazon fresh which is their online service. Essentially saying if you're a prime customer now the food delivery is free just as the streaming video is free so and they're also Planning to take their Amazon. Go Technology the cashier lists stores. We all have heard about and bring that to bigger stores rather than the tiny ones smell. It's the smell L. of burning cash listening to you speak whereas the make money part well for Amazon you know. They're making money off the cloud and advertising. Yes so that's why again. We're seeing very selected small pilots but with the things like the shelf scanning robots. Don't look at it if out of stocks such jargon term think of it as lost sales else if the honey bear. Isn't there on the shelf. You're not getting that sale of honey. If it is there at the robot tells you it's not there you know get somebody to get it in the back you have now gained aim to sail that is sale that is profit certainly so that is what will help these guys certainly rather than all these fancy terms like a and vr and stuff like that honeybear ain't the buried their revelation for you. I actually enjoy food shopping but I have to tell you this if there was an APP to say. Hey where is the honeybear. Oh let's I'll three road to ten steps that I actually. It is good retailers. Do you have their shopping APP. And you walk in and a a lot of them will allow you to upload your shopping list. There'll be a map overlaid. It'll know where your location isn't. Oh say the honeybear is here. for that's what really screws people up. When a store gets remodelled? People are suddenly say we're honeybear. We'll say one thing I think would be really cool to APPs showing the expiration dates Of different things. So that's always the cell by used by that we have story that we'll have to have a full show on the cell by and used by Matthew Boyle. Thank you so much for being with us. That was a great story about boil as US retail reporter for Bloomberg News joining us here in our interactive brokers studio's really interesting revolution away in the grocery stature. Industry can keep up boy you a shopper. Spent a record heard at nine point two billion dollars on cyber Monday that seventeen percent more than last year it added to a robust black Friday so it seems like the consumer is in good shape a as we head into the thick of the holiday sales to get more color. We welcome Christian Mugune Christian Chief Executive Officer of Amplify E. T. S. with over seven hundred fifty million dollars and under management based in Colorado Springs Christian. Thanks so much for joining us so it seems like the consumer is out there spending for the holidays. Yeah Paul has been definitely a very good start to the season We've we're likely to see record holiday shopping You know some forecasts believe at this year will grow about four percent overall in holiday shopping and actually go from about nine hundred seventy billion dollar a season last year to a trillion in dollar season this year so very exciting I think. Fifty year unemployment steady wage growth are really helping the consumer be confident here here. Of course the big area of growth has been online retail Well total sales may be up about four percent. Online retail is trending up maybe fifteen the sixteen percent. So that's going to be the sweet spot for investors we think for those looking for To Kinda ride this Retail trends both You No for growth. But also for kind of the trend of going online versus in store Christian I'm looking right now at the holdings of either by which is the that you run With about two hundred and fifty million dollars of assets over under management. I'm just looking Peleton is that is that a retail stock. That's your top holding. According to this that's right so it's it's a newly added member of the ETF and really the criteria. Lisa is that a company has to have seventy percent or more of their revenue coming from online sales and Peleton fits that that criteria You know most people think of Amazon is being you know Kinda the primary Online retailer but you know Amazon is just one one of many We've actually had more performance and Alpha generated in the last year from companies like Carranza Shop Affi- VIP shop all all those companies up between one hundred thirty and one hundred ninety percent this year I is unique from an online retail. ETF because it is not market cap weighted it's equal weighted And we do have that revenue test so we think that you're getting access to a lot of unique names that maybe you don't necessarily know Peleton is one that people know so right now but the car von is of the World VIP shop. Oh Kado Those names Have a nice impact and have been in Alpha driver for the fund which is a five star rated morning star funding the number one performer and the consumer cyclical category over the last three years. And we'll just say Paul. It's interesting to see what retail online retail consists of. It consists of food and getting cars to take place scrub hub. It's getting lift Uber. And then and then when you feel really guilty about moving around you go by and you can pelivan right got gotcha covered. Hey Chris I know. There's one less shopping week here for this holiday period to last year. What kind of risk is that for some of these these retailers in some of the ATF? Set Yeah definitely is a risk. I mean we're six days last because the holiday shopping season started later with Thanksgiving being six days later than last year. So you know. One risk is bad weather. Frankly Because we have a compressed time period and we've actually seen that a little bit on black Friday and cyber Monday. Thank you guys experienced experienced it yesterday a little bit in interesting stat. We're seeing from adobe analytics which really tracks the one hundred largest online retailers is that States that had bad the weather two inches or more of snow solid uptick and online retail sales by between seven and nine percent. So we're seeing that You know brick and mortar kind of face. This headline risk of bad weather where people stay in but it actually turns into a tailwind for online retailers Also this trade trade issue is definitely something that could impact some consumer confidence. In the last four months we've seen Trending downward still in a very healthy range. But it's something to watch particularly. Yeah we've heard you know president trump back away from maybe the urgency of doing a trade deal here By the end of the year Christian you talked about the good performance of I buy over the past three years and certainly certainly the shares of stocks shares of companies that you have in your portfolio have done very well the likes of Expedia or at sea lift lift Uber Net flicks. That however is getting called into question now because of how high evaluations are and this question of yes this is the new model. But perhaps there's been too much capital put into these particular companies. How do you respond to the valuation questions? Well it's definitely a challenge because when you look at maybe the counterparts of brick Ed mortar. They have very low valuations. But of course there's the risk they're going out of business so when we look at the Valuations of these growth companies. You know their peg ratios shows are we think are still attractive. You know right now. There's still about eleven percent market share of online retail as opposed to all retail sales in the US In China for example that's over twenty percent market share. We think many of these companies are going to double or triple their market share or their sales over the next three to five years as online retail Starts to continue to emerge right now going back to nineteen ninety nine online retail about nineteen percent average compounded annual growth rate. So when we look at these companies we actually think that over the next three to five years if they double or triple their sales that These these valuations will actually look potentially like values We just think this trend is going to continue more and more consumers are going to trust Going online whether that's through mobile payments payments or the convenience the competitive pricing or the or the increase selection. So we think this is a global trend. Investors can capitalize. And you know since the fund's been outed it's returned about ninety percent over the last three and a half years versus the SNP at about fifty percent. So it's definitely been a place for Alpha we think that's going to continue Christian McGowan. Thank you so much for being with US Christian Mugune chief executive officer of amplify. ETF's after this episode checkout boxes and lines a new podcast from I e x home of the investors exchange with irreverence and insight Ronin Ryan and John on Ramsey hold court on market structure and best execution with wall. Street's most savvy market practitioners whether you're a traitor or not boxes and lines is the PODCAST for the financial professional who wants to understand the incentive structures technology underpinning our capital markets subscribed to boxes in lines on apple. PODCASTS spotify stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts you'll never ever trade the same way again. It's it's all about trade today. That's what sinking stocks at least if you trust the price action in response to certain headlines President trump coming out and saying who knows. Maybe we'll make a deal. Maybe we won't maybe we don't no need to make a deal before the two thousand election push it back after that. You're seeing the Nasdaq down. One point two percent also hearing about taxes on porcelain and French wine and and cheese joining us on to discuss all things trade Brennan Murray who covers the entire area for us. Here at Bloomberg. News Brendan can you just paint a scene here on what was driving the escalation. That seems to be coming to a foreign some ways today The the the president and his advisors say that we're we're inching closer and closer to a deal with China Making it sound like something was imminent and they were going to meet. Meet this Sort of a deadline of December fifteenth before the US raises more tariffs on on Chinese imports. And yet the president today kind of step back and said You know I don't really have a deadline that I'd be fine if this drags out Fully fully all the way through the election of next year so I think the the stock market reaction is definitely They were is that investors have been thrown for a loop here You know thinking that they were close to a deal but now this is something that could drag on and on from onto months You know whether this is just a negotiating strategy on trump's part The idea being that you know the closer you get to deal the more you more the more you act like you don't need it you don't want it. is a whole another question that You know that that is still remains is to be answered British. WanNa take a step away here. This has been just a tariff news cycle here last several days. It's not just China. We we had yesterday steel tariff discussions on Argentina and Brazil. Today it's French wine and cheese you know. Historically how effective have have tariffs been has been a big wielder of tariffs historically Not In the recent past. Obviously the trump administration changed all that but tariffs are are fairly blunt instrument used mainly as leverage in negotiation you threaten them Before you actually impose as them so The big difference that we've seen in the trump administration is that they impose them and then they say. Okay let's negotiate You know I if you WANNA if you want us to remove them so They have traditionally in the in the recent. In the recent past the past few decades you know Countries that have been moving more and more to lower tariffs You know trump has come in and you know is using them to extract concessions from from trading partners. The interesting thing about the French Move that you that you mentioned is that this could sort of bring the trade war into Europe as a whole that the European Union You know We'll we'll have a reaction to to of that on France's behalf and you know there's a scenario that You know that you can see where things kind of spiral out of control in this sort of tit for tat with the the. US China trade war has evolved that You know we could wind up with To fairly large showdowns on to huge continents for a huge economic trading partners the. US Brennan Do you think that the headline is the US. And Europe are kind of ratcheting up the tensions on both sides of the Atlantic. Or or do you think that the headline is it could have been so much worse and president trump could have been going after the auto sector for example in Europe and this is sort of more eh negotiating tactic. All around as he tries to seem powerful heading into a couple of tough weeks. Absolutely the car tariffs that you mentioned that deadline for the trump administration to act on Came and went without any action A lot of People communists and Auto industry industry experts have said that you know something like that would surely You know send You know a key some economies like Germany into recessions You know so There was a measure that there is a measured approach in at least in that way from the trump administration And you know in in in in reality the the the two point four billion dollars tariffs on two point. Four billion dollars in French products is is not a huge amount when you consider The tens of billion dollars dollars to the con- The the country's trade between themselves Brenick you briefly describe what digital service tax is. And why. It's a big deal to the. US government so this is a three percent percent tax on the gross revenue of Of A large tech companies companies that make over bring in more than seven hundred fifty million dollars in revenue a year fire. This hits companies like Google and facebook and Amazon and France has as enacted enacted this year. They're trying to drive. Eh Sort of international move toward toward such attacks And and the US has has come out against it. Saying and if we'RE GONNA TAX I if American companies going to be taxed the. US government is going to do is going to do that. Not The French government so You know in some ways you know. The trump administration nation is is is acting You know to to defend companies that it normally doesn't offend And and you know an an in in in this case in particular they could have gone to the WTO To dispute this This tax instead. They're taking the you know the the trump strategy of going going one on one You know so WTO case could drag on for years and years so This is this is the the trump administration strategy is to is to. You ought to fight their own fights. Brenda Mary thanks again. So much for joining us here and bring us up to date on all things. Trade Brennan covers the trade issue globally for Bloomberg News joining us from London. And there is a lot for Brendan and his trade team to be working on. Now we have trade discussions tariff discussions. It seems like in every corner of the world and and it's obviously has a major impact on financial markets breath rates continued to be exceptionally low. The question is about twenty twenty. Is it time to start looking at twenty twenty. And what should we expect to answer that question. There's nobody better than our good friend. Ira Jersey chief. US interest rates strategist for Bloomberg Intelligence. And our thanks so much for joining us so as we think about twenty twenty is still a lower rate for longer type of Alex from your perspective. Well I think in in the in the front end in policy rates I think will continue to remain kind of in in this area. I don't think that the Fed's likely to do anything if it all next year potentially elite they could They could eat policy a little bit if things get really bad on the economic front but. I think that they'll wait until after the election to kind of reassess how things are unless Unless you see things like you know negative payroll prints for example You know on on the On the long-term sides like ten year rate. I think it's pretty clear that when you get these headlines about trade you wind up rates Rhonda rallying today ten years down eight basis points in yield But you know that goes away and you wind up with probably pretty substantial selloff and you wind up with Ten year yields up closer to two and a quarter instead of where they are now. So so I think a lot of very predicated on Kind of the balance of uncertainties certainties remaining Remaining negatives but if you get rid of some of those uncertainties and you know the market can kind of take off Trajkovski of skybridge capital capitalize on Bloomberg Radio earlier Moore noting that yes the market was down ahead of the open but knocked down by as much as you would expect if president trump say in in the summer had been saying you know what all tariffs are ago. Who knows if we're even GONNA get deal this year or next year? For that matter there seems to be a buffer and he we saying that comes in the form of the Fed increasing its balance sheet about three hundred billion dollars since the end of August help support is that evaluations certainly involved. Yeah well it helps a little bit. I mean you know. Remember they're buying mostly Th the mind mostly short and debt so divine mainly t-bills which it's you know don't have really a lot of market risk so So yes it's helpful a little bit but it's not as meaningful as if they were going out and buying a whole lot of of you know five ten and thirty year bonds but that said it actually dampens volatility which is a proven risk. Encourage her right. I mean basically the lower the the volatility the more people will be inclined to buy stocks and buy junk bonds and going to risk. Well I think I think it is a little bit more of a risk on because by buying by by buying t bills Dell's their affectively increasing the The increasing bank reserves which which encourage some risk-taking But but that's not what's helping keep ten in your yields low right so so there's a difference between you know how this might be helping risk assets versus how it might be Supporting or not supporting Things like ten year treasuries and the like like So I I think the the thing that economic fundamentals her matter much more to the long end of the curve and what you see is when you see uncertainty. And you see heightened uncertainty you're gonNA wind up with it re- regardless of what happens is say the Equity Market Equity Market might go up a little bit under the idea. That defense can ease that interest rates are going to be low. Oh and that might be supportive. Evaluations in some risk assets but on the other side that the reason why that's happening is because you have the expectation for low inflation for for low and stable grow low but yet stable growth that will keep bond yields very low so wh- because when you look at things like real yield so ah the yield on on tips and the yield that investors are demanding above inflation. You're only looking at that being ten basis points over the next ten years so people. I don't think that there's GonNa be a lot of volatility or particularly fast growth where you would expect there to be a lot more risk and things like Inflation and inflation expectations insist that you demand a higher premium for that. And you don't see that so as long as that remains very low which I think is what the trade tensions do You'RE GONNA wind up seeing low bond deals but again like that can go away in a heartbeat and you can wind up with fifty basis point selloff In a hurry if that uncertainty goes away I read twenty twenty presidential election year in your experience. It's been increase volatility or has has a bond market typically done in presidential election years. Yes so the during presidential elections the the only the time that you saw a major move after an election was really after Donald Trump's election in two thousand sixteen you go back You go back to the prior thirty years so the prior six elections and you you really did not have significant market reaction one way or the other it tended to be whatever. The trend was going into that. Based on economic fundamentals is what continued To the drive the bond market But Twenty sixteen. You know that was a significant change and you know this this year. Maybe you could see something similar if you've got had a candidate when that you know was gonna either You know change policy quite significantly and we'd have to see who that was before you can make a guess. Oh which direction the bond market would move jersey. Thank you so much for being with US Ira Jersey it covers all things interest rates for US chief. US interest rate strategist four Bloomberg intelligence. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg. PNL podcast you can subscribe and listen to interviews at Apple. PODCASTS is or whatever podcast platform you prefer on Paul Sweeney I'm on twitter at PT. Sweeney and Lisa Abramowicz. I'm on twitter at Lisa Abramowicz one before the podcast you can always catch us. Worldwide wide on Bloomberg radio.

US Amazon Bloomberg president Bloomberg News apple Donald Trump Paul Sweeney Brendan Bloomberg Dot Com Fed Kroger reporter China Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Lisa Abramowicz
Emails surface between Roger Stone and Trump campaign's Steve Bannon about leaks of emails stolen by Russians; Trump stokes fears over immigration, promoting racist video and claiming "invasion" on border; New CNN Polls: Tight senate races in Tennessee an

The Situation Room with Wolf Blitzer

41:31 min | 2 years ago

Emails surface between Roger Stone and Trump campaign's Steve Bannon about leaks of emails stolen by Russians; Trump stokes fears over immigration, promoting racist video and claiming "invasion" on border; New CNN Polls: Tight senate races in Tennessee an

"Support for situation room comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans who were excited to introduce their all new rate shield approval. If you're in the market to buy a home rate shield approval is a real game changer. And here's why first Quicken Loans will lock your rate for up to ninety days while you shop, but here's the crucial part. If rates go up your rate stays the same. But if rates go down your rate also drops either way you win. It's the kind of thinking you'd expect from America's largest mortgage lender. To get started go to rocketmortgage dot com slash situation room. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of affordable. I wear styles starting at just six ninety five. No ridiculous markups. No hassles. Just quality affordable. I wear delivered right to you visits. Any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Happening now, breaking news closing in on collusion. An Email exchange from the two thousand sixteen campaign reveals that Trump confidante Roger stone was in touch with the highest level of the Trump campaign about the forthcoming WikiLeaks release of democratic Email stolen by Russia. Is there a collusion case for the special counsel, Robert Muller? No safe harbor, President Trump takes another step to divert attention to head of the midterms me denouncing what he calls a quote, invasion on the southern border demanding that caravans of migrants turned back, and then I'll take a change in asylum. Rules, fear factor. The president moves the stoke fears about immigration promoting racially charged video that shocked even key Republicans who say he's trying to frighten his loyalists. So they turn out to vote will it work and mob, boss. Burder shocking. New details about the savage killing of imprisoned mob, boss, Whitey Bolger. Why was he? He beaten beyond recognition. I'm wolf Blitzer. You're in the situation room. This is CNN. Breaking news breaking news and Email exchange for the peak of the two thousand sixteen presidential campaign, chose longtime Trump ally. Roger stone had contact with top Trump. Campaign officials Steve Bannon about the WikiLeaks release of stolen democratic emails. Our source says the special counsel Robert Muller now has those emails Muller's team has been focusing in on Roger stone and has interviewed Steve Bannon at least three times, and that comes as President Trump tries to change the subject in these the waning days of the midterm campaign playing the race card and stoke fears about immigration hospital. Senator Ron Wyden of the Senate committee and our correspondents in specialists are standing by with full coverage. Let's begin with the breaking news about Roger stone's communications with the highest level of the Trump campaign bringing our CNN political correspondent Sara Murray, and our Justice correspondent Evan Perez. First of all, Sarah, take us. Through these emails emails in the campaign, as you mentioned October of twenty six in the backdrop here is that Julian Assange was going to have this big press conference. He was going to release a bunch of new documents. So Matthew Boyle who is a political editor for the right wing Breitbart. News emails, Roger stone and said a Thon, what's he got? Hope. It's good. Roger stone responds and says it is I'd tell Bannon referring to Steve Bannon. But he doesn't call me back. So Matthew Boyle decides to Email Steve Bannon and say you should call Roger see below. You didn't get from me Steve Bannon response to Matthew Boyle, I've got important stuff to worry about pretty dismissive. And Matt Boyle responds back and says, well, clearly he knows what a Thon has. I'd say that's important these two, of course, have a report because Steve Bannon used to be the head of Breitbart news now fast forward to October four this is after it became clear that Assange did a two hour media event, but didn't release anything new a lot of the pres-. Then the candidates supporters were very angry. And if out of bombshell was going to drop says Steve Bannon does decide to Email Roger stone and says what was that this morning, and Roger stone replies. Fear serious security concern talking about Assange, he thinks they are going to kill him in London. Police are standing down however a load every week going forward. So wolf this is another one of those instances where it appears that stone looks like he's to predict something. Although join us on she did say that he had more information to share and there would be more coming. But it also tells you that he was in touch with a very senior Trump campaign official in the weeks leading up to the election about WikiLeaks. As you know of Robert Motors team, they've interviewed at least seven or eight of Roger stone's associates three times alone. Steve Bannon has now been called before the Muller team. What kind of case potentially is Muller building against Roger stone and potentially others. Well, first of all, I think we don't know. Whether Roger stone is actually bluff. Or whether this is actually true. That's the essence of what the the the issue here is. But this is one reason why we keep saying that the collusion cases still very much alive. It is still very much something that Robert Muller's investigators are still pursuing and so you could see perhaps a conspiracy case against Roger stone. If if it is proved that he did know something that perhaps if he was conspiring with WikiLeaks, and he was in communication with people in the campaign. That's where the crux of this lies whether or not this is actually what Muller. Remember, this is what Muller was actually assigned to do. And so this is what you know, the central case that they can make as you said nine of. Roger stone's associates have been brought before a Muller type provided information does a one more that that has been fighting subpoena. So we'll see whether or not this is a whether the investigators are able to get there. It's very interesting. You know, Jeffrey Toobin is with us as well. Jeffrey, take us a little bit into the big picture of what's going on right now. What does this tell us about what? First of all what the campaign thought about. Roger stone is ties to WikiLeaks the Clinton Email hack, as you know, the US government has alleged that the WikiLeaks got all those emails courtesy of Russian will the big the big question at the heart of the Muller investigation is we know that the Russian government through intermediaries made efforts to help Donald Trump win win this election. That's beyond dispute at this point. The question is did anyone in the Trump campaign? No or assist that is collude with the Russian government to assist. Trump win. The can't win the election that has the potential to be a legal stone is the potential intermediary between Wiki leaks, which got these teams from the Russians to the Trump campaign, these these emails suggest there were certainly conversations going on about that Wiki leaks effort it's suggestive, but it's not proof of a crime yet. I don't Saraf Roger stone does. Get into trouble. Does that implicate the Trump campaign because almost every other day, the president says, no collusion? No collusion. No, collusion wolf. It really depends on what he gets into trouble for, you know, we don't really know the extent of the conversations that Rogerstown may have had with other people in the campaign or even with Donald Trump directly. Now stone has denied over and over again that he shared any information about WikiLeaks with Donald Trump when he was a candidate. But the reality is these two were talking directly. And there was no one really monitoring their communications at the time. So we don't know what was shared. I mean, I think it's possible you end up in another scenario where no one else in Donald Trump's inner circle is caught up in this. It could just be something that Roger stone gets in trouble for and then you end up with this lasting perception that the president, you know, decided to surround himself over the course of his life, essentially with crooks if people who are up to no good. Roger stone's still insists that he did nothing wrong. He's innocent November. Can I just add one point about Roger stone? Evan. Evan made an allusion to this. You know, there's a technical legal term for Roger stone. He is a BS artist. He lies to everybody. He boasts. He tells stories that may actually help him. He may actually be saying, oh, I was just puffing. I didn't really know what was going on with WikiLeaks. And if you know Roger stone, as I do it is in tireless possible that he was just boasting any didn't know what was going on. And that's an overlay to all these emails in these conversations that the Muller office, which certainly knows knows who Roger stone is at this point. We'll have to consider. Here's what some legal experts who are knowledgeable about these kinds of matters. Have have suggested that perhaps is Roger stone really the ultimate target here. Or are they squeezing him in this way? So he cooperates and they can go to a higher up. Well, you know, I think that's a that's an interesting theory. I mean, obviously, we know that under Justice department rules, the president can't be charged and and that's the ultimate and. Game. If if you if you are looking for a bigger fish, I think well, if I think if if if the special counsel is able to get the charges on Roger stolen, then if again, it has something to do with the campaign. I think that does tremendous damage to the president. And I think that is it self a big deal. So I'm not sure that you need to roll him on anyone in any case has Jeffrey just pointed out. I mean, there's so much BS from him that I don't think you can even use him as a witness, and and have that stand up in court. I think they that Jeffrey made a really good point. And it's sort of at the crux of this New York Times article that came out they had all of these messages with oil with Bannon O with Roger stone. Although Roger stone did publish some of them himself. And you know, it's sort of gets this idea that Rogers was selling himself to the Trump campaign as a guy who had the inside track with WikiLeaks. But people in the campaign didn't know what to make of it. They didn't know if they could trust him, and you can kind of see it in these emails where Steve Bannon just says, you know, I've got important stuff to worry about I can't bother dealing with Roger. So it's hard to say that. And that's what the. Investigators are trying to pin down is whether stone really did have any kind of back channel every any kind of sort of direct contact with Wiki leaks, or whether this was just, you know, a guy who wanted to be important and relevant is still pretty interesting though that someone again fi like this a BS artist as Jeffrey points out had access to the president. I mean to the candidate at the time. I mean, he's somebody who still talked to the president with some regularity appeared certainly have access to see them. A political strategist Jeffrey how does this fit into other evidence of the against the Trump campaign specifically that the very controversial Trump Tower meeting in which they they all got together with some Russians to get so-called dirt on Hillary Clinton. Well, they both deal with the same. General issue was were the Russians the Russian government people affiliated with the Russian government trying to help the Trump campaign, obviously, the Trump Tower meeting based on the Email traffic was very clearly about that. Although the meeting apparently didn't pan out here. The question is did the Russian government and Russian interests through Wiki leaks. Try to hurt the the the Clinton campaign to benefit to benefit the Trump campaign. It's the same question. It's just it's it's a different route. And the and the thing that you always have to ask about this is why didn't anyone affiliated with the Trump? Campaign say this stuff is illegal. We can't get hacked emails. Those are crimes we don't want any part of this. That is something we certainly haven't Jeffrey ver very important point. Apparently, nobody from the Trump campaign called up the FBI or any other law enforcement authority and said, hey, there's some illegal stuff going on. We want you to we want to alert you about right? I think that much has been clear including obviously when when they decided to do the Trump Tower meeting with the Russians nobody called the FBI, which is the course that I think everybody would have preferred I is certainly law enforcement would have preferred that the Trump campaign do art everybody standby there's a lot of dramatic developments unfolding right now. But joining us right now democratic Senator Ron Wyden Ivorians, he's a key member of the Senate intelligence committee. Senator thanks so much for joining us. Thank you wolf, do these newly released emails that we've just gotten our hands on today, strengthen the case. The Roger stone was a potential backchannel from the Trump campaign to WikiLeaks, which was getting a lot of stolen emails hack. Emails from the Russians. Well, then Keller members, of course, can't get into classified matters. But let me tell you what I think the bottom line is today if Roger stone and Steve Bannon were coordinating with WikiLeaks. It seems to me that way raises a wide variety of potential criminal and civil violations. We'll talk a little bit about that. Do you? Do you buy stones excuse that? This was all just bluster. Again, I can't get into classified matters. But I think we know that these two were very high up and very influential in the campaign, and that's why the time story raises in my view, very substantial and troubling questions, and what I want to know. And can't get into classified matters is were these two coordinating with WikiLeaks. And if they were seems to me they've got a whole lot of trouble facing. Well, what kind of trouble I want you to elaborate of that. If they were well criminal criminal and civil I mean, there are a questions of criminal violations when you're talking about foreign interference in elections. There are certainly issues with respect to hacking their civil questions with respect to reporting. So there is a wide variety of potential criminal and civil violations here. So do you think Roger stone will be? Envited? Well, right. Roger stone himself has been on both sides of the questions. Sometimes you all are reporting that he's saying he's going to be. And I think I'll leave it at that. He's on both sides. He has suggested he has said he probably will be. We'll see if that happens. We know that Muller and his team. They're really interviewing a lot of his associates. They haven't yet spoken to him. Although he did testify up on Capitol Hill. Why do you think that Muller hasn't called Roger stone to actually appear either in a question and answer session or before a grand jury? Well, Bob Muller has been running a textbook investigation. And I'm not going to kind of sideline quarterback his work. If you look at the number of guilty, pleas number of indictments he is going out this very methodically. And this is vintage Bob Muller. It's keeping the politics out. He's going to buy the book your committee. The Senate intelligence committee has been trying to get documents from Roger stone has he cooperated with you. Again, you cannot under the committee rules talk about that that kind of business what I can tell you is that I think there are substantial questions left for the committee to address some people are talking about whether the committee should wind up its work shortly. I think we've got a lot to do bottom line right now. Based on everything do, you know, do you believe there was what's called collusion? When people ask about that. And I've been town meetings all across Oregon the last couple of weeks, they asked that specific question. Look when you examine Donald Trump junior's Email with respect to that particular meeting. That's got all the attention. There was a clear intent to collude there. So there's a lot of follow up work to be done. While I have you Senator let me get your thoughts on the president's closing argument. Just ahead of next week's midterm election. He's clearly trying to turn the focused immigration releasing a deeply racist. Video ordering a military buildup on the southern border with Mexico. What do you make of President Trump's closing argument just five days before the election? Democrats have been trying to work with this administration for twenty two months on serious policy. We voted for a billions of dollars for border security. I think what you heard a little bit ago was a president trying to whip his base up into just extraordinary fear. So they would not pick up on the fact that the president's legal team is in court trying to take away their healthcare. I think that was what today was all about. And when the president of the United States says if some of these young men, for example, throw stones at American law enforcement or military personnel. It's okay to go ahead and kill him shoot and kill. There are already tough laws to enforce arrangements to protect our people on the border. What the president is doing is playing political games that have anything just makes enforcement tougher Senator Wyden. Thanks so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. All right. We're going to stay on top of the breaking news. We're getting more information. We'll take a quick break. We'll be right back. Support for situation room comes from our friends at rocket mortgage by Quicken Loans. Let's talk about buying a home for a minute because of rising interest rates. There's a lot of unpredictability when it comes to buying a home these days, it's causing a lot of anxiety with folks. Well, our friends at Quicken Loans are doing something about that. They're calling it the power buying process. Here's how it works. Quicken Loans will verify your income assets and credit in less than twenty four hours to give you a verified approval this gives you the strength of a cash buyer. Then once you're verified, you qualify for their all new exclusive rate shield approval. I they'll lock your rate for up to ninety days while you shop. Now, here's the best part. If rates go up your rate stays the same. But if rates go down your rate also drops either way you win. It's the kind of thinking you'd expect from America's largest mortgage lender. To get started go to rocketmortgage dot com slash situation room rate, chilled approval, only valid on certain thirty year purchase. Actions. Additional conditions or exclusions may apply based on Quicken Loans. Data in comparison to public data records, equal housing lender. Licensed in all fifty states and MLS consumer access dot org. Number thirty thirty. After promoting a racially charged video that truly shocked fellow Republicans. The president is heavy back on the campaign trail later tonight. He's trying to drum up when he calls a crisis on the southern border making his closing argument about immigration. Let's go live to our White House. Correspondent Caitlyn call us or Caitlyn? What exactly is going on? What's the latest? Well, well, what we're seeing is the president make this last minute pitch to voters because he wants the midterms next Tuesday to be about immigration, and we just left the White House. He's headed from Brazil tonight for another rally in this blitz rallies. He's doing ahead of next Tuesday. But before he left the White House. He gave his presidential address that the White House says was warranted by what they are calling a quote immigration crisis. But wolf when the president addressed reporters, he didn't disclose any new information or unveil any new policy proposals. Instead just putting them off saying that they're coming next week, but not saying anything specific wolf, but it's. Essentially what we saw was the president reiterate what he says at these campaign rallies. Just this time it was here in the Roosevelt room at the White House. And it was more of that larger argument that we've seen from the administration and from President Trump specifically as they are hoping to bolster Republican support ahead of next Tuesday and make this all about immigration. So we'll just that on top of the president's idea saying that he's going to deploy thousands of troops to the US Mexico border his claim that he wants to end birthright citizenship with an executive order. Also that ad that he tweeted yesterday on his Twitter, which the White House says our official White House statement of an illegal immigrant who killed police officers all of this wolf is really a larger effort by the president to make the immigration not about or excuse me, the midterms not about healthcare not about anything else. But about immigration that is what we are seeing and wolf it's likely what we're going to hear more of tonight than or Caitlyn. The only thing I heard in that talk of the Roosevelt room at the White House was when the president. It said if some of these migrants, these young men, for example, where to throw a stone or a rock and a law enforcement official or US military official that they could respond with with gunfire. They could shoot and kill these young migrants. And you heard that before from White House officials that that was going to be the new US policy. No wolf, and I don't think the White House knew the president was going to make that remark earlier, and he seemed to say that in response to a question at one of the reporters there in the room said to him, but that was pretty much as close as we got to a different policy change. He said that in his opinion when it comes to something like that he considers a rock to be equal with a firearm. Great Collins at the White House. Thank you very much. Our political experts are here, we're going to be discussing President Trump's decision to go all in on these scare tactics. I want everybody to stand by. We have lots going on. We'll be right back. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Our friends at Zanny optical offer, a huge variety of high quality stylish frames and state of the art optics starting at just six ninety five. You can get multiple frames with this great pricing for less than one pair. Elsewhere start building your eyewear wardrobe from the comfort of your own home at Xeni dot com. With the latest trends in eyewear available in hundreds of frame styles and materials there isn't a better way to change it up for every season. Plus, there's any offers prescription sunglasses at incredible prices. Visit Xeni today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. That's Z E N N, I dot com slash CNN. We're following multiple breaking stories right now, including President Trump's attempts to keep voters attention focused on what he insists is a threat posed by what he calls mass uncontrolled immigration. We have lots to discuss with our experts crystal as there's looked like the president has settled in with five days to go in his closing argument. Yeah. No question. And I think you need to see this, you know, alleged policy address that was just a campaign speech in the Roosevelt room as a piece of the larger puzzle of this closing argument. This was billed this something that it was not there's a policy in this. This is Donald Trump again saying essentially, there's a roving horrid of I'm paraphrasing there's a roving horde of immigrants on the way to this country. They're one overwhelm our borders. And there's criminals in there, and I'm not going to let that happen. Now, the facts he left the facts left the in a long time ago on this in terms of the details he is clearly settled on this though as the message not terribly surprising giving that immigration has planned to build the wall. All his travel ban. These were things that animated the Trump base in twenty two thousand fifteen then twenty sixty and he's going back to what he knows you're going to hear more and more of this in he no, he's holding a tunnel rallies. You're going to hear this rhetoric. This will be the closing argument. It will. I think be effective for his base that will help in the Senate because of where the races aren't we'll help lessen the house because there's so many suburban districts, California, Minnesota, Pennsylvania where this message, I think will be lost on them or may even lead to a bigger democratic than New Jersey. Jamie gonna go you've been talking to some Republicans sources the president clearly is doubling down right now. What are you hearing one of them said to me he's tripling down? He's gone past that, this is about fear and rage. We've seen very few Republicans actually publicly take him on most of them are hiding under their desks or looking for a bigger desk to hide under. But they don't like it. They don't want this. It is not good for them. It is not good for the party long term. And as Chris it's going to work in some districts. But in a lot of them it won't, and it can backfire, you know, David swirling, the president is getting a lot of pushback for this racially charged video that he forwarded to fifty five million followers on Twitter Senator Jeff flake tweeted, this is a sickening and Republicans everywhere should denounce if too. But there hasn't been universal condemnation. Why? Well, I think you hear from Senator flake. Because he's not running for reelection. And that is part of the problem. Look, I'll say the same thing about Senator flake that I said about speaker Ryan yesterday, it's a little late to grow a backbone and stick up to the president when your days away from essentially being out the door Republicans have had two years to try and claim back a different version of republicanism. They haven't done it. This is Donald Trump's Republican party, President Trump's party, and he has Chris and Jamie are saying he has settled in on his closing argument. Tripling down on immigration because this is where he's comfortable, you know, beyond the president keeps appealing to his base. But in the process, he's not necessarily reaching out to those independent voters that the Republicans will need if they want to retain the majority of the house and the Senate ally, not try to broaden he's the president United States the Republican coalition. Well, look, there may be a few factors that play one. This is what the president knows. This is what won him the two thousand sixteen election when? Everybody said immigration and building a wall. We're not the issues to go after so in his mind, if I'm one aspect he can say, look, I was right. When so many people were wrong. Secondly, it's what he knows best to. I this president isn't well versed in healthcare. He's not well-versed and a lot of other issues, but he is well-versed, and he does know how to stop on the campaign trail when it comes to immigration when it comes to that wall. When it comes to the caravan and third I think Jamie was right. You do statistically see that voters don't reward incumbents during a mid term, they come out when they're angry, and when they're outraged and the sense that this caravan may be approaching the use of the word invaders possibly in his mind could be an attempt to spark that outrage in that concern, what's really upsetting it. He once again uses the word invaders invasion of. America doesn't he know that this shooter in at the synagogue in in Pittsburgh was motivated he himself said because he he he didn't like the word illegals that much, but he really likes the word invader. I think he understands it. I just don't think he cares in an interview with axios that they're publishing out. He's asked about this. You know, the implications not specifically of the Pittsburgh instant. But more broadly, speaking of his language precedent people. Here's response is. It's my only way of fighting back again, I always come back to this. But the people have held this office before saw the office as it carried with it a burden of moral leadership. Whether you wanted that or not whether you wanted to be a role model or not you were because you're the president of the United States. He absolutely rejects that idea he does what is good for him. And that's the opposite of being a moral leader. And he believes in those two words fear and rage as he said to Bob Woodward. That's what gives him respect and rage is what he thinks motivate then to to Jim's point, it's he has said this each how he won. I mean, you have to always remember in two thousand sixteen everyone said he's not gonna win. He's too angry playing on people's fears putting on racial animus that won't work. In this country any did. So everything that he thought that everyone said wouldn't work did, and he views that as the ultimate justification, which is why it's called Antilles until double down on wolf. Can I just jump on that point about presidential leadership? Just to contrast with what President Obama said I wrote this down before we came on set what he said in two thousand fourteen when he went to the the East Room in prime time to talk about immigration. He said scripture tells us we shall not oppress a stranger for we know the heart of a stranger. We were strangers wants to we're a nation of immigrants that was that presidential unifying message. You don't have it are beyond go ahead. And once again, it shows that this president is willing to bet that immigration and fear over a immigrants coming into this country. Will Trump a talking about the economy the economy was on an upswing when he wanted to a two thousand sixteen and economy? It's only improved since then we have another jobs report coming out this Friday just a few days before the midterms. And yet this is not. An issue that the president is focusing on as a priority. Everybody standby, there's a lot more news. We're following new polls indicate important trends in states that are key to Democrats hopes of a so-called blue way. We'll update you on that. When we come back. Hey, it's Howard Beck. And I've got Shaun Livingston on Bleacher reports the full forty eight how many teams have gone to final four straight time. One three of them. You know, like, you know, we see minute are placing mystery the full forty eight is now available on Spotify. And of course, you can always listen subscribe on the Bleacher report app. Apple podcasts will wherever you listen to podcast. Just days ago before the midterm elections. President Trump has just gone back out on the campaign trail is closing argument is based on stoking fears on immigration with racially charged incendiary rhetoric. Let's bring in our CNN political director, David chalian, give us your thoughts on the president is closing argument that day because I know yesterday, you you said look like he was losing a little bit of his footing. But what do you think today? Yeah. After those pipebombs were sent to all of those Democrats and to CNN after the massacre at the synagogue this weekend. It seemed to me that was we were discussing the president didn't quite know which way he wanted to go where how he was going to get a handle on the wheel and steer the narrative into election day. It's clear he's got that footing now for himself. He knows he wants it to be on immigration. He wants to go very hard at it. I think every day from now through Tuesday wolf, we're going to hear a very hard core. Immigration, border security message. From the president. He thinks that's the best way to get his base out. Not just save the Senate from slipping into democratic hands, which is where he has the most influence because the way the map is. But also in some of these battleground house districts where he actually won by double digits. We have some new poll numbers, I want you to take us through these new poll numbers because they underscore baby. Why the president is doing what he's doing? Yeah. We're seeing razor thin races in the key. Battleground state of Florida take a look at these numbers here you have in the governor's race, Andrew gillum jazz. That's tied race forty-nine percent of likely voters say that for Gillam forty eight percent of likely voters in Florida say they're for Disentis that is get much closer than that. Same story in the Senate race there between Bill Nelson, and Rick Scott, take a look at their you got the democratic incumbent Nelson. Forty nine percent, Rick Scott, the governor seeking a move to Washington as a Senator at forty seven percent and take a look wolf at what has happened to the president's approval rating in the. Sunshine state look at where he was mid October. When we pulled Florida forty-three percent approval among the voters now, he's at forty seven percent approval. He's still slightly upside down, but his approval rating uptick is what is bringing these racists closer together. We see a similar story in Tennessee. The Senate race are critical for democratic chances at all in taking back the Senate right now Phil Bredesen's running behind. He's at forty five percent. The Republican congresswoman, Marsha Blackburn. She's at forty nine percent. You could see a complete flip flop in those numbers from September. What happened between September? And now the cavenaugh affect certainly happened. But this immigration message Blackburn is echoing President Obama on everything. He says about the caravan about birthright citizenship and look at the president's approval rating in Tennessee, as well, we see an uptick there. He's now at fifty three percent approval rating majority approval he's up right side up by what does that eleven points. Fifty three percent approve forty two percent disapprove. That's quite better than where he. Was back in September that presidential performance that has been enhanced for for Trump his approval rating going up is having a benefit especially in a deep red state like tennis. So it looks like these final days before next Tuesday's election. The Republicans have developed a bit of a momentum. Well, I in the Senate, I think they have in some of these deep red states. I can't stress enough. How totally different the two atmospheres are in the battle for control of the house and the battle for control of the Senate the Senate it's all about those red states that have Democrats in them and Ken they win reelection in Trump country. The house is about these suburban districts these independent voters that are going to be key. I asked a Republican operative just a little while ago who is in charge of a lot of the strategy behind these house races. If you could script Donald Trump's closing message for your party. Would this be the script and his answer was well, it would be part of the script. I would want immigration to be a piece. Of this. But I would want other things like healthcare and the economy and the Republican message on those issues to also be a piece of it that somebody who's running house races on the Senate. They're very happy to see this hard line immigration message because that's the part of deep red Trump country America where resonates the most and those are the voters they need out for the south serious. Are these proposals on immigration that the president is now throwing out suggesting is going to have tents ten cities for any illegal immigrants who comes into the United States, and the US military will be surrounding all these tent cities. These people will never be able to leave unless they're kicked out of the United States or that if young migrants throws a stone at a soldier that soldier or law force officer can shoot to kill. Yeah. I listened to very hard to the president today to hear a new proposal a new actual policy rollout. There was none. There was not an executive order for us to read and see what he's talking about. And. Immigration activists on both sides of the equation. Let's say we're waiting to hear what the president was going to say because what ended up happening was it was much more campaign rhetoric in the Roosevelt room today. It was not specific policy and the campaign rhetoric does not equal policy. I think the president has learned that time and again throughout the last year and a half dollars campaign rally speech in the Roosevelt room with the the difference being there were no applause going on at a rally. There'd be a lot of applause people interrupting with words like her up locker up right stuff like that. All right, David. Thanks. Thanks very much. Our our political record David chalian coming up shocking. New details emerging right now about the Grundel killing of the imprisoned mobster Whitey Bolger. Was it revenge? Hey, Howard Beck. And I've got Sam amick of the s Lennick on Bleacher reports the full forty eight Lakers for me would be the panic side on the negative and then positive wise. I think Denver looking good as they do. You know is than tremendous fun to watch. You know, you'll get your star. You wrote the definitive piece on him last season. And I love everything they have to inform. So check out the full forty eight now on the Bleacher report app, apple podcasts and Spotify. Tonight. There are shocking. New details at many unanswered questions about the killing of the imprisoned former mob, boss FBI informant and most wanted fugitive Whitey Bolger. Let's go to C N N's Brian Todd Ryan, it looks like he was murdered inside a federal prison wolf, it looks like he was murdered in a ferocious way inside that prison. We have new information tonight on what took place inside the facility and on a possible suspect tonight new information indicating the Boston's most notorious crime boss ever was targeted in prison. The New York Times cites law enforcement officials saying James Whitey Bolger was in a wheelchair when he was attacked at Hazelton prison in West Virginia that he was beaten beyond recognition with a padlock stuffed inside a sock. The times citing a law enforcement source not directly related to the case reports Bulger's is appear to have been dislodged from his head that it's not clear whether his attackers gouged out his eyes or if they were knocked out because he. Was beaten so severely. Frankly. Why do you went out the way that he lived? I mean that is what he did to his victims. He was vicious. He strangled. He was convicted of strangling a woman, and then he would go upstairs and take a nap while his friends buried her body. The attorney for an inmate at Hazelton photos. Freddie, Jesus tell CNN tonight he believes his client as a suspect in Bolger's grisly murder. Lander standing is that he is in solitary confinement. He's in the segregation unit at Hazelton because he's under investigation for him being involved in this Jesus is a mafia hitman from west Springfield, Massachusetts. And was convicted for murdering a boss in the notorious Genevieve's crime family as well as an associate this Jia, certainly did not like informers he's doing to lay sentences because some very close decided to become an informer and going back and I've visiting Mr. Jesus from the better part of two decades. Now, he'd had a particular distasted and Bolger was a well known informant. Investigators said that for years before a corrupt FBI agent tipped him off depending. Charges against him. Bolger gave the F B I information on rival mobsters. He was leading south. Boston's violent winter hill gang at the time. Why do you someone who is truly a gangster an associate Pathak murderer? That's what he was. He's someone that sold out his colleagues to law enforcement to get advantages for himself Bolger's exploits as a murderous gangster and an FBI informant with picked it in the popular hit movies. The departed man as lack mass were Johnny Depp, played Bolger, John, Geno. What I did eight rand Jimmy. It's alliance alliance between the FBI between you and me. Ultimately, a jury found Whitey Bolger culpable of eleven killings between nineteen seventy three and nineteen ninety-five tonight. The attorney who represented the family of a woman who was strangled by Bolger says he doesn't believe they're taking pleasure in Bulger's murder. There is such loathing Bolger. And for what he did. Did with his murders. His drugs is corruption that obviously he's not a person that engenders many feelings of sympathy from anyone, but there are many serious questions tonight regarding the circumstances at Hazelton prison, which according to his lawyer inmate, Freddie, jeez said was very violent place. Why was Whitey Bolger? A high profile inmate a notorious informant placed in the general population of that prison when he arrived just the day before his murder CNN tried multiple times to get answers to that. From the Federal Bureau of prisons a spokesperson for the bureau told us, they could not comment because the matter is under investigation wolf and Brian. There's disturbing new information about patterns of violence and chaos at the prison that federal prison in West Virginia. That's right wolf, the New York Times did a big investigation recently reported that the Hazelton prison was routinely, understaffed overwhelmed. The times report says they've been short on guards since two thousand sixteen and that there were two hundred seventy five violent episodes there. Just last year, including fights among inmates and attacks on staff, the bureau, prisons has not commented when we have inquired about all of that. Brian Todd reporting for us. Thank you coming up. There's breaking news an Email exchange from the peak of the two thousand sixteen presidential campaign shows longtime Trump ally, Roger stone wasn't touched with the highest level of the Trump campaign about the WikiLeaks release of democratic emails stolen by Russia. Is there a collusion case for the special counsel, Robert Muller? Are you interested in learning how enterprise scale companies drive organic traffic to increase their online visibility than download the voices of search podcast from the heart of Silicon Valley here? Search metrics Inc. CEO Jordan Kuni as he delivers actionable insights into how to use data to navigate the ever changing blends with Google, apple Amazon. The voices of search podcast harm search engine marketers and business analysts with the latest news and insights, they need to nephew ever changing landscape of search engine optimization and content. Are you ready to learn to use search data defined strategic insights about your competition in your industry as a whole then search for voices of search wherever you download your cast. That's three simple words voices of search to learn the secrets of search engine and content marketing.

President Trump president Roger stone WikiLeaks Steve Bannon Robert Muller CNN Donald Trump James Whitey Bolger Trump Senate United States America special counsel Quicken Loans Trump Trump Tower Senator
Introducing Conviction: American Panic

The Clearing

24:27 min | 11 months ago

Introducing Conviction: American Panic

"A quick warning before we start the show. This series contains descriptions of adult subject matter including details of sexual abuse and trauma. It might not be suitable for everyone. Discretion is advised. There's this memory John Quincy has from when he was a kid and San Antonio in the one thousand nine hundred eighty s so one night went for a ride with my dad and his friend. Louis We were driving around the country. You know country roads for awhile. I sit in the back seat. We come across to hitchhiking teenagers girls. The car slowed down and John's dad. Roll down the window to talk to them. I remember my dad asking if they were Christians. Because I know that's what they were looking for Christians. John Remembers the HITCHHIKER's getting in but instead of his dad taking them to where they were headed. He drove to a field outside town. It was dark. There was barrels of fire. Coming up John could see people gathered there some. He recognized and others he didn't. We were standing there with a few of his friends. They were just like you know songs. Words no other language that understand my dad's Dan the middle because he's a leader torture these girls for a while for killing them in saying that this is the last supper Lord and Savior Lucifer and then they were getting the graves that were previously doug before we got there and saw. I remember at nine years old. John Quincy realized that his father Melvin was the leader of a satanic cult. Local authorities began to investigate. They went out and started to dig for bodies word. Spread that this churchgoing father of four was actually a devil worshipper who tortured his own children and as more and more allegations came to light they ended up all over the local news. Forty Melvin. Quinny won't be visiting any of his four children soon to the children say their father abused them and force them into panic called ritual. They also claim they witnessed the called killing of a child and as for the man at the center of all these allegations. Melvin quinny our shocked. And what was your response a you know. I had a bunch of bullshit nonetheless in the summer of Nineteen Ninety one Melvin. Quinny was put on trial the main witness against him. His now ten-year-old son John and I knew it was coming down to me I knew was a last chance. They had to get him off the streets in Nepal to Mita to be the hero. You know when it came time for Melvin to address the judge he stood up and said my name is Melbourne. George Junior this never happened and all I can ask this mercy of the court. What's striking here is. How both sides are equally hard to believe. Either Melvin. Quinny was living a secret double life as a satanic cult leader in the suburbs of San Antonio or his ten year old son and inexplicably made the whole thing up and had convinced the authorities to go along with it. I'm Julia Markazi. And I'm Sharon Shattuck. We've spent the last couple of years investigating what exactly happened to John. And Melvin Quinny. What we found was an even darker and stranger story than anything we could have imagined a story that went far beyond this one family in far beyond Texas. It's a story that challenges our beliefs about memory and truth and what given the right circumstances were capable of doing to those we love the most Story begins way before Melvin and his ten year old son. John found themselves on opposite sides of courtroom long before there was any inkling that that was in their future. John says in the early eighties they were just an average family living in Texas. I wanted to start with everything. You can remember four. Everything went bad more the happy years like you know they're normal. You know what I mean like. We moved around a lot which I found out it was just because we were poor but I don't think there's a whole lot of weird stuff there you know. I don't think there's anything to make me think that anything was going on before happen. John Quincy was born in one thousand nine hundred eighty and grew up outside San Antonio. The queenie's were a typical suburban Christian. Family John Remembers. Their house had pictures of Jesus on the walls and his parents. Melvin and Debbie Played Gospel Music every Sunday in a family photo album. John's a Chubby kid with a message brown hair and as much as you can tell from photographs. He looks happy in one. He's standing next to his dad and two little sisters in. The kitchen is grinning wide with traces of red popsicle all over his face. John was such a well he was just a damn key. Kid WHO's A kilo boy. Melvin Quinny is seventy one years old and he's a little hard of hearing so I had to shout my questions at him. Sometimes you like being a father all. Yeah Oh God yeah so wait a minute sorry. Don't go give me started on. Even today over three decades later he gets emotional thinking about the life he had when his kids were young. And despite what would come Melvin and John. Actually remember the early years in much the same way. John says he and his dad were really close. They love watching old horror movies together. And Sometimes Melvin would talk the kids in at night with ghost stories that he made up the funny voice like the one about a creature named the home young. That eight kids fingers. Sometimes Melvin really got into character basically as to go and if I can do it no stuff like that. That's really scary. There really did love him. I remember asking for the voice like I remember thinking something cool he can do in like on-command just a scarce sneak up behind us. Melvin work doesn't exterminator and sometimes he'd bring home little gifts for John. A remember catching a tarantula. Brian home to John for Pat. He loved that trench. Debbie Wasserman real happy about it. We won't hear from. Melvin wife Debbie in the series. She died in nineteen ninety nine but growing up. John says he was close with his mom. He told my producer Mag they even looked a lot alike. She was a version of me honestly. She was Chubby. Big glasses like she's always had big goofy glasses. And you know where the flannery shirts and like really what an eighties mom would look like. Geza love with her. She loved Patsy. Kline. I really grew like Asi cline you know. Did you have a particular Song Well her song was crazy. Crayton's I'm crazy for TASSIE climate. Come on we. Would you know she would make sure you know? So that was that was really cool. Crazy love So how do we get from these happy memories telling ghost stories and dancing to country music to a kid convinced that his father was secretly leading a satanic cult? It all started in the late eighties by one thousand nine hundred nine. The QUEENIE's had four children and we're struggling with finances so I mean we weren't poor poor poor that we were very much lower middle-class you could say a lot of times when we'd have to skip out of the ramp at night. Okay Tim say that thanks for pretty. Bad then Melvin. Says he and Debbie started having marriage problems. There were constant fights about money and infidelities on both sides and eventually it reached a breaking point. One day we got a big argument finance and everything else. She told me she says I want a divorce and I told her I said look. You can have the damn divorce I said but I'm I'M GONNA fight for custody of the kids next thing. I know it was Thanksgiving night. Debbie had already decided on the divorce and everything but it was Thanksgiving night of eighty nine. Debbie was cooking Thanksgiving dinner. We're GONNA have a lot of the neighbors and just you know. Altogether there was neighbors in and out in and out you know bringing and helping debuts danner and it was all night affair big Thanksgiving Dinner House. Everything was legitimate normal. You know like fucking Hunky Dory and then the next day. I think it's when we left the day after Thanksgiving while Melvin was. Debbie gathered up all the kids and moved out of the House without telling him John was nine. Sarah was five. Tammy was not yet one and the baby. Matthew was just seven weeks old. It was very sudden thing and there wasn't no packing up or anything like I. I don't think we to close this. Remember a couple days before that my dad had got me a the band comic which is a cool one. It's the one where Robin gets killed by. The joker you think of that. He got me. Michael Jackson's thriller the record. I mean we didn't have time to get that stuff you know and I remember always asking like a comic book. I want my records and stuff. Debbie took the kids to a friend's house and then went to see Melvin. He'd spent the day at his parents place. His car had broken down and he was in the garage trying to fix it. I was working on my car and this car pulls up. Nebi came up to man down here. Debbie you know and and She said well the kids and I are not home anymore. I should want choose a well. Sarah has been molested. She's been molested and and you can't see us and you can't have any contact with her. Why she's a because you are a suspect. Mellon says he was in a state of Shock. He immediately got on the phone and connected with a caseworker from child protective services. He astor who else they were investigating sheepish. Nonchalant SHIT ON A. You're the only suspect dislike that meanwhile was in his own state of confusion up to that point. He hadn't even known that his parents were getting a divorce. So this separation came completely out of the blue. He remembers that first night away from his dad staying with his mom and siblings at a friend's house. After guy late. I thought you know. What are we going home? And that's when I asked my mom. When can we go back home? And she said she told me. My Dad was sick and I remember being being young. I assumed that meant an illness you know and I remember the first thing I thought about was my grandmother just passed away and them telling me she was sick and I thought okay. This can be bad. I had no idea they meant mentally sick. John's memory of this. Time is hazy. He just remembers being scared that his father might be dying. He doesn't know whose house he was in. He thinks it might have been church friends of his mom's but he does remember. There were a bunch of adults there and they were asking him a lot of questions about his dad. Remember asking me if I'd seen anything weird between him and Sarah you know or seen anything happen like why. And then they said well. Sarah's molested by somebody and I'm like well what's that you know because I didn't fucking know that word and who who's talking to you my mom talking to me at this point with her friends or associates or whoever these people and I say what does that and they said yes when they told me you know touching inappropriate places. I think they use the word like under the underwear bikini areas. You know like they places. You don't touch kids and I was just like okay. Well what does this have to do with dad and they said we think your dad might have done it. What did you think when you heard? I'm thinking like diaper changing normal like parents daffy now like you know. I think I remember seeing stuff like maybe I mean this you now. It enriched me something could happen. John didn't really understand what was going on but he could tell the adults around him including his mother panicking after the break. The allegations against Melvin. Begin to stack up. Welcome to the show. I opened this case on January fourth nineteen ninety which would meant. It would've probably been a day or the day after I interviewed Miss Quinny. This is Mike appleby. He's a retired. Fbi agent and San Antonio and he's seen a lot of disturbing cases in his time. He still remembers the day. Debbie Queenie called him thirty years ago. She told him that she wanted to report what she knew about a dangerous cult that was operating underground on the phone. She generally was saying she had information about this group of people and they were a satanic group and they had done some terrible things and they were all over. I WANNA say Texas Oklahoma Louisiana and but the keyword for me was she said in and there was a sacrifice of ritualistic sacrifice of infant. This phone call was made about a month after Debbie had accused. Melvin of molesting their daughter Sarah now she was saying that he was involved in this cult and that he was dangerous. Appleby hadn't heard anything like this before. So he asked if they could meet up in person we met at this gyms restaurant which is a chain here in San Antonio. It's just a typical diner. We sat down at a booth and got my pin out. Start taking notes and then Debbie started telling appleby about horrific sexual abuse and secret rituals with men in dark robes chanting around bonfires. She told appleby that. In one of these rituals Melvin had forced her to sacrifice her newborn baby to the devil. She said they perform this ritualistic ceremony on her. And it was a group of men I think she even said they were wearing hoods or dressed in black. I think it was something inspired by Melvin. Or he was the one that was a key figure in this sacrifice of this child. Debbie said that the ritual she witnessed was in Fort. Worth at a mobile home park where Melvin had once worked as a nightwatchman so appleby called up a backhoe operator and some Texas Rangers and told them to meet him there. He flew Debbie and a friend of HERS UP TO FORT. Worth and put them up in a hotel room just before his team was about to go. Dig Up the Mobile Home Park. He sat down with Debbie to discuss the plan against him in the room. And I'm going over the store again this what we're GONNA do. Can you go to this place? You think you can find where this child was berry. She said absolutely. I said okay boots and saddles. Let's go. They started walking around the mobile home park with Demi leading the way well she points somewhere and they are crying. This child's name. I can't remember what it was. Let's say it's Laura I'm sorry Lauren and all this stuff and go wow. Debbie wandered around the property pointing to different locations. But appleby says she could never say exactly where the ceremony happened. Just before they'd start to dig. She changed her mind and say it was actually somewhere else. Appleby ended up spending several days with Debbie looking for bodies in two separate locations. Where she claimed Melvin had led human sacrifices. They dug for hours at one site but they didn't find anything. What did she say when you didn't find anything she well that maybe that's not it or maybe it was over there after about the third or fourth spot. It just got to the point where things weren't adding up after that agent appleby ended the investigation. And you might think the case against Melvin Queenie would-be closed the rumors of his secret. Life as a satanist would be put to rest. But that isn't what happened because even though the F. B. I couldn't find anything. Investigators did gather compelling evidence in the form of testimony from Melvin Year. Old Son John John had been put into therapy right after they left that Thanksgiving and there. He was asked a lot of questions about his dad one day. He started talking about these memories. He had things he'd repressed things his father had done to him. I don't know the exact moment happened. I just remember all of a sudden. I'm recalling really terrible things like I'm remembering them a month later John. Quinny would give an official statement that would become evidence in his father's trial. The statement written by a doctor who examined him reads John States. That bad things used to happen in fields in the nighttime remembers going to a field with his mom and dad. There were a lot of people there. There were fires lit and big trash cans. This place was to celebrate the devil. His Dad would sometimes use a deep voice to say. I am Legion Schmidt to the authorities and San Antonio John Statement was so detailed and so disturbing. They thought they'd stumbled across a once in a lifetime case but the thing is John Quincy wasn't the only kid. Claiming have been victimized by a satanic cult and Melvin. Wasn't the only adult accused of leading. God's People Inhale Inhale. He's right here in your city in Malden Massachusetts preschoolers accused three adults of tying them to trees and attacking them with knives. They're taking a child to savagely torment sexually abused train their blood make them drink. Blood the list in Olympia Washington. Two girls accused their father of abusing them in satanic rituals. I next guest was used. Also in worshipping the devil participated in ritual cannibalism in Niles Michigan in Maplewood New Jersey Satanic ritual abuse in Austin Texas has become the fastest growing and most controversial in Jordan Minnesota psychological phenomenon in the country at a preschool outside Los Angeles California in Minnesota New York Tennessee more than four times from Gimblett. Welcome to the second season of conviction American panic on the next episode. We go back to where this all began. When Satan came to America from Canada the next seven episodes conviction are available. Weekly only on spotify to keep listening to the story. Download the spotify APP search conviction and listen for free slack. Conviction is a production of Gimblett. This season is hosted and produced by me Julia Markazi and Sharon Shattuck. Our producers are Meg Driscoll and John White additional production by Matthew Bowl. Our senior producer is Lauren Silverman. Our editors are Devon Taylor Alex Bloomberg Data Sound Design and mixing by Matthew Boyle original music by Marcus Begala with orchestration by Mark Beckley performances. By Gregory Loose Rian Lugo. Susan Demand Will Kieran mcelwain Samuel Begala Chris. Rogers Aaron Drescher and Josh Plattner additional music by Bobby Lord. Our fact Checker is Nicole. Palca special thanks to Liz Fulton Nazanin Rafsanjani t John. Thomas Junior Matt Nelson Lin. Li Mike Static Debbie Nathan. Keith Hampton L. Kirk Hagan in Jordan Smith. Thanks for listening.

Melvin John John Mike Static Debbie Nathan San Antonio John Quincy Melvin Quinny Sarah Mike appleby Melvin Queenie Quinny Debbie Wasserman Debbie Queenie Julia Markazi Mobile Home Park producer Sharon Shattuck John States
They Tried to Make me go to Rehab, I said.... okay?

Bill and Andy Try To Recover

34:34 min | 9 months ago

They Tried to Make me go to Rehab, I said.... okay?

"Hey we're going to build an anti recovered. They tried to make me go to Rehab. No no no I like it. Welcome to and in Biller bill and Andy and we used to be called nation dues right. Yeah welcome back man. Look back with the hell no I I want to say. Thank you to everyone. Who's been listening to man? It's been amazing has an bill. It really had an outpouring. It's been awesome Appreciate everyone commenting and listening and rating and reviewing it's It's been really impressive. And and hopefully we'll keep doing this thing and wanted to give a shout out to my boy Austin are. That's what's up right there. I was in treatment with at one point. Although that's not saying much I've been in treatment with a lot of a lot of treatments takes what it takes also like to say a big shout out to whoever's listening to the UK May What's our email address? Andy Bill and Andy recovered G MAIL DOT COM. I had a yahoo address and Andy said that was fricking wrong. Old School host Yahoo. I am Bonsoir to our fringe fans at the UK man. How y'all started listening to us. But we're so thankful Kuwait you'd want to listen to a couple of rednecks like us right now. We started this just really to keep ourselves playing sober. We didn't realize that it was going to take off at all. We if we had five listeners. We're going to be like let's go get high not not really but you know what I mean. We're GONNA celebrate and it's so far we're almost at four hundred downloads and that's for us. That's pretty good man. Yeah it's bad ass so today as we started off singing about Hariri. Hey we want to talk about Reasons why first of all we go to treatment because if you've ever done cocaine and fell asleep while you had a dream that you were doing cocaine woke up doing cocaine. You probably want to us. If you've ever gotten high on a Tuesday you probably WanNa right so the one of the reasons. I didn't want to go to Rehab was was because I had this had this job that I was pretty sure had no idea I was getting loaded right and the day that I called him and it was like. I gotta go to Rehab. They're like thank God. Jesus Christ man. We've been praying for you so I didn't want to first of all I. I don't know what it was if I didn't want to just stop. I don't think I wanted to stop getting high. The truth I really thought my life was manageable as as a user and then see self can't see self so when I got out of it and look back of like. That's the most unmanageable. I've ever been in my life. Yeah I'd I remember which man I've gone to several rehabs I've been I've been doing this thing for about fifteen years Dale And I went to my first one guests at two thousand eight and little rocket place called serenity part but I didn't WanNa go at first because I didn't want to face my fears. My bullshit right. That's what's up. I'll shout out a few of mine. I'm going to this place called Sassa here in Eldorado the lost city of gold and then I went to I got kicked out of. Cd You or kick myself however you want to say that and then Went to a place called the beach house down there in West Palm Beach. Florida shout out to Westbound Beach Florida and it was a really cool place. They're dual diagnosis. And their thing was like we understand your adobe. Let's get deeper than that. Let's get into that trauma and you know what makes a great addict frigging trauma so I just want to say that. Probably the the worst shit you've been through and and the more shit you've been through will actually help your story. I'm especially when you come out of it and and get fully into recovery. You GotTa have a hell of a story. I don't care who you are out there today. Listen man you can have a great story coming up and you can help somebody. I promise you that you're not gonNA help anybody who what we're doing. But you could actually help somebody in recovering and I've definitely tried different things to to get some sort of recovery in my life. I think I've been bad ties about three or four times a pretty sure that we're using bad water on me every time. I do different and so you know it really took and let me tell you something the going to Rehab and I hear people say well. They didn't do anything. I already know everything. There is something about taking thirty. Forty the log. You can take the better but taking thirty days away from your life where you don't have to decide stuff like What am I gonNa make for supper tonight? don't worry the rehabs going what am I going to do about Don't worry we got you to take a break from that. And just look at at you and your disease. And there's something about that this magical but build addicts. Alcoholics thrive on that worrying about. What's for dinner? I got a job I got. I got my wife and kids. I'm kind of a big deal. This shit we don't do something about that's what I was. GonNa talk about when I was taught reasons that I didn't want to go to Rehab. It's well my money. You know what he's going to get funding. Louis Louis really become great family man. Oh man we care about our jobs when somebody tries to get us to go to recap how dare asked me to go to Rehab? I'm managing just fine. So Yeah my job my money my family. I want to be the best day. I almost got a world's best dad award once. Yeah that'd be trying to explain why there's needles than a yard dog take a lot of shots but yeah it's got no dogs gus addicts. We're so special. When it comes to reasons we don't WanNa do shit which you know. Let's say this. I first and foremost treatment is not mandatory. No Sir No. I know a lot of people who have a hell of a lot more sobriety than me work better program than I do. Who Ever stepped foot in a treatment center is great or an institution? It's not mandatory. That's right for me. It was Because I like you said Bill I had to get away for a little while. Just just a dry out in a way yes and just In totally changed my perception. That's what treatment was for me. These you know it's been a process but what it and we'll get into that process but but life is a process we might sponsor davies will so dave was always says your body sobers. You're going to get After forty five days. But it's the whole mental the way your brain works let's addicts. We're not exactly like these earth waters out here are Brian's work a little differently than everybody else and I thought in my head because I think you're getting kind of a high when you go to Rehab and treatment you got your feel-good you're in this little bubble everything's great you starting to starting to get ahead starting to clear up your body starting to get normal again your body's wondering what we're eating a lot today. You know there was a guy talking about that in the meeting today man. He was fresh out of a treatment center and he said man and was so easy in that treatment center. Man He's like I didn't wake up thinking about the stop but he's like the second day I got out and that's right man. Yeah real life happens again because you're going to return to some sort of a normal life eventually and that's where we have trouble is normal life inside that bubble of Rehab. Everything is great and yeah. It's wonderful but you're going to have to return to society at some point and then what are you going to do? And that's why I always encourage people to do ninety and ninety ninety meets ninety days. 'cause we're trying to give your brain a reset trying to reset that dumb ass brain got and and it's okay that we need that. It's it's great because we're gonNA in some things are going to happen. You're going to spot a new set of friends in recovery 'cause you can't hang out with them. Old People used to hang out with. I can't go to Bubbas House and try to tell him how good I'm doing. How me and him both behind Lucette friends. You got to reset your brain. There's that ninety days a lot and it also allows you to find a sponsor. Yeah which is very important allies moss policy. I'm hoping to have my sponsor own David. Eight next week is supposed to be on this week. But he's hi. I'm just kidding. Just kidding day wasn't He had had to worker. Chase's wife or something. I don't know what he's bill. Talk to me a little bit about about the process once you got into treatment. What did they do that help so much like I I know? We've we've kind of discussed before you said they broke you down a little bit. Well some breaking down process myself down really and the one I went to. They would offer you some suboxone or something. If you're coming off the hard stuff And I'd already detox at another center so what I got down there. I was like I don't want none of your magic pills or anything. Just let me recover Instead over here this detox detox is the reason a lot of the suggests going to treatment. Especially if you're alcohol or heroin appeals that detox can be deadly. I mean you can. You can die. That's why you want to nurse supervision and doctors feel like you're dying. I felt man. Let's talk about painful. And that's part of the reason that I was like I'm not giving up on his recovery. Thanks I cannot go back through that storm of detoxing off those and opiates. It's terrible it's like having the flu if you're listening to me now and you're going through that Do you reach out and get some help. He there's treatment centers that don't even charge anything they'll do a scholarship or something and reach out like say hit us up on the email email we suggested earlier. We'll try to help you. I mean because we don't want another addict ever to die of this disease but there's a where I went to Rehab. They had a show going on for walkout dope sick nation and it got so bad that they were cleaning up bodies out of the park so there every morning they'd find kids. I mean kids and they were of Diana this park new shooting heroin. And what's Fenton all see what what happened down there in West Palm Beach Florida? This how tough attics all right. So they started cutting the heroine was fit and all because it would be. It's IT'S A comparative shoe. But the problem is if you're not used to you know kill you now the addicts are so tough down there that they got to where they're like. Just give us the book and we don't even want to hear what he will but what happens is let's say you take three to five days off of shooting dollar doing it however you want and you go to detox and when you come out and you do a quarter of what you were doing when you went in your you could overdose immediately. And that's what was happening. They were cleaning up and then going back and using and Bam. They're dead just almost immediately. Yep So Yeah where I went to treatment was a really good place of all the other treatment centers I went to. I'm not cut down or anything but that would be like our don't do drugs and alcohol and what we all want you to do is go to all these meetings and do it and when. I went down there. They're like Oh we understand your attic. But let's let's get down to some of that trauma and let's talk about why you started using because let's say in the beginning of my disease I had. I didn't feel normal. I didn't I didn't feel like a normal person in society and so when I would use all of a sudden off in felt normal But there was some trauma they went along with that. Okay so years later I tried to start getting plane and when you do that you still got trauma to deal. It's and that's what we're trying to work on the steps from an for my knowledge When they started the original program. Which was alcoholics anonymous? They they knew these. These guys were alcoholics. Okay with their well-versed in alcoholism but what the difference is they didn't do anything about it. They just like all right. If you drink again you're going to die and they're like I get it so they would they stay sober for a while and then they drink again and it always start out real simple. I like the story about the guy but whiskey in the meal. Yeah that's one of my favorite stories because he I don't think he had any intention when he left the House that day. Getting drunk you know but you know the brain is such a marvellous thing when it starts getting in there. It's like Hey. I'll tell you what I get a little whiskey in about art head like two sandwiches. It's not GonNa hurt me. But why would we want to? Because we're fricking alcoholics addicts. That's why won't that's right man. And he didn't have what we learn in treatment is about the the allergy and and all that and it becomes crystal clear then that first one is what Knox us out but but for me like treatment man it was. It was dealing with that ship that I was drinking and using over not to worry about anyway. Yeah give yourself a chance when you go to Rehab. I know nobody's frigging comfortable there. I promise you that I wasn't there. Three days Thanking I can do this on my own. I'm just going to do this. Get Outta here gone by my business us if I want to. But after three days being in there and I was so far away from home I was crying my pillow and I was like that's any I'll take any any relief at this point. And that's when the surrender happened. And that's that's when you start to grows when you actually surrender to the fact that you're an addict alcoholic or whatever. Yeah Man my first two treatment centers. Were really just me having to concede to the fact that I was alcoholic addict. Yeah tell them. How many treatment centers you went to. I've been about five or six okay because I don't want people to go. I went to one and it didn't work. That's all right. That doesn't mean we stop. Just lay down and quit breathing on no not a three-year-old year old but laying a lifelong. That's right that's right. It's a process and even every every day even even where I'm at in my program right now. I still have to wake up and go all right now. Let's do something about it. Let's let's fight this disease. It's in front of me no man. It's been exhausting from family. Put them going to all these and it's been exhausting for my sponsor too. It's been keeps me on my toes but you know each one of them has been a learning process for me as well like the first one like. I said I always just admitting that I was actual drunk and a junkie. The that was that first thirty days it didn't cure me at all but learning slowly. Changing my mindset. You learn something off. Man Like Bill said earlier. I had a lot of trauma that I didn't realize and I think a lot of us do if you've been in the drug game and the drinking game at a time we go through some shit that you know we go through all that but but yeah then the second one. I had to work through some family things things with my dad. You know what I'm saying and the third one. I had to work through some things with my brother. Some different guilt issues and things like that and just grief. I had a lot of grief. Just not letting letting myself deal with normal people do. Yeah don't give up man you have a story. There's a story in you. See the first part of your life. You're not even right in your own story. You got parents or guardians who the hell ever you know. Most of us wasn't raised by wolves. Somebody's telling you where to go what to do. And then you become a teenager and you start to find yourself and what happens for US addicts. Is We start using it about that age? So where everybody else's learning how to deal with feelings and learning how to be an adult we're getting loaded and our metal stability stops about right there so when everybody else is growing and learning how to deal with heartache. Deal WITH PAIN. Worst isolated now. We're just pilot shit up own own and stuff PORTA. Potty admit used to shoot up is is like I love Puerto Potty. Shoot up some. If you ain't never shot a bluewater screw you lucky bastard. This oh I lost say Haidar sponsor Chevrolet Man. I saw a guy that leaves leaving Walmart parking lot in his Ford Ranger and he left his his purse on the nonstop even though he apologized he was in a hurry. I'm just telling you several Chevy owners. We don't do that you know why you see afford. They're always lifted was that they don't want to get their dresser. Booms I think they're using the heartbeat of America anymore but Chevrolet if you out there comeback to hem listening. I'm shamelessly throwing out tough said Chevy. I don't know how many times during this episode. That's worth a free truck right there. My listeners drop Fukien. Chevy's alcoholics delusional. You ever shot up in a Chevy. I actually had better shoot up in a whole so Talking about treatment centers. The one I went to the one of the ones that went to there was people. And you're gonNA find this. There's always people getting loaded in the treatment center and its own you what are you. What are you trying to do here? I mean we're trying to better our sales by some winters. Stick with them when I first got into this group. I'm in now I sliced. I said they stick with the winters which which ones are they and they said we just take turns. One day Andy's winter someday you can go to treatment and not do shit either. The very first one I went to They took me off all my drugs. Obviously and I was still a pretty good manipulator at that point and my mom had not entered her alanon program. I called her one night and I said Mama. I can't sleep man I said I. I shouldn't tell this. But my mom brought me some Lou. Nesta I as somehow swing remember. The commercial with the butterflies controlled substances Alia she. She wanted her baby to get some sleep and treatment. But I love those commercials where it's so gentle and the butterfly lands on your commute from Michigan interrupt cracking up and snort in it but I ended up taking and sleeping in a Chili's on a barstool. It wasn't the same rocket waiting for the butterfly. It never happened. It's weird. I saw my everywhere all over my skin. Our we've been talking about okay. Okay so perspective okay. So I'll I'll try to explain it to you like this. The perspective that you have of yourself is probably not what everybody else thinks of you because I thought I was this great American Dad. Four point nine kids what are two dogs and all that and I was this great guy and then got out of it. I'm like I was probably the worst father ever and my kids turned out great. I mean it's it's I get to be a dad today. You know and that's a huge thing to me. Because I got a lot of kids. I mean got four hostages children. Whatever you WANNA call But then in my daughter is actually in the program with us. What's up and I have had the privilege or the district of getting to hear her story which you know I was not the hero of by the way if you're wondering And listened to retailer story. I'm like I don't think that's how it happened but it did it. That is exactly how it happened for her and see her perspective. And you know we think of ourselves as these great people and then and or we take ourselves these bad people and other people. Don't don't see us that well. Yeah no man. That's a good point bill because I was kind of the opposite. I had I had a really bad perception of myself where where I literally hated myself. And that was another thing that that has and it's still taking some time to get over to where I've forgiven myself and actually start to like myself and we talked about that meeting today. That was the topic of discussion but my perception was at the lowest form of human being. Well I take that back when I get loaded. I thought I was the coolest Guy. But then on those swing downs. I was the worst guy so you. You're right perception was just totally skewed. Well let me tell you this. You're the hero of somebody's story but you're also the villain of somebody so I don't care who you are what you think you are. You're probably not and and what the going to treatment is is. Let you take a break from all that. Just quit thinking so much. Because we're us we love to think about over. Thanks overreact under Yak and always react to something and I like a guy always talks about my first reaction is wrong so if we can learn to do a little pause in their immediate immediate response to something it's probably wrong but going treatment gives you that thirty forty five days. I have a buddy He went to a nine month program and and he's doing okay And a lot of people come out of there do really well. Because it's nine months you have a little sober baby nine months. That's awesome man. That's another good point man. In the last treatment center I went to it was it was a three month Sober Living Program Natural State Recovery Center shot up shot out natural station and that was the best thing for me and you know earlier in the in the program. We talked about all those reasons. We don't want to go to Rehab. We've got a Job. We've got a family that's got a House. I've got to pay for it. I can't go to some sober living. That's something I thought I would never do. Yeah well what happens? If we don't find some recovery or don't try to. We'RE GONNA LOSE THE HOUSE. We'RE GONNA lose the wives lose everything so why this what? I want to ask you today my whole point of this. Why not obviously? You've tried to do this. The dragway the alcohol way for years and years. So why not? Just Give Yourself A. I'll tell you what I dare you to try. One Year of actual recovery not just sustaining from alcohol and drug. I mean actually getting into a program of recovery. 'cause I I've done this I came into the didn't didn't get a sponsor didn't work any steps and then when that didn't work out a new it but did I did not really try. No I just have asked this thing like I do and then when it blew up in my face I knew it and so but when I actually came in here sat down got belly up to a table with another with another human being and was like okay. Here's my Dick Dick Dick Dick. Here's my here's my must. So here's my deepest darkest stuff now now. Now what you know. And he's got a Tattoo Alzheimer's so he was like what would you say like? I told you it's over. I did my fifth step. So yeah just give this thing a chance. Give yourself a chance. Why not man? What if you're listening to this today and you're struggling with this thing? Quit fighting it. And it's not that complicated men and you're not that smart. We have to have his wife coming here. Set this equipment fourth because we're going to be honest. We're a little bit retarded. I'M NOT GONNA lie. I'm an artist a technical stuff. Yeah and and you know we've got these faces that were made for radio. I always thought I'd be a really good jazz Dj Welcome to the smooth jazz. Why because you are on heroin no no but see I like to. I always taught my voice was just. I could just do a jazz radio show. That's get into a bathroom is my idiots and we're so thankful that everybody listens. We hope you get something out of it really. We're not into the show right now. I just want to thank everybody. I'm still impressed about the UK man. Please send us email and tell us who you are. What's he doing over there and spread the word? You found some ignorant people that that actually have somehow managed to stay clean and sober days because I really without treatment. I don't think I could have done this. But one of my best friends in recovery. He he did go to any any rehab. He's just so fricking stubborn and main. He was like nope. I'm not going to drink anymore and it was. I think it was a little bit more of a struggle for him because he didn't have any any baseline to go off of and I. I need that I needed. I needed some some people Some therapists to sit down with me and go okay here. Here's some trauma. And then what can we do about one of my therapists said one of the most amazing things to me? One time she was he said. You do not have the keys to a time machine. You cannot go back and fix any of this shit. Why Layup at bed at night worrying about it less less move on and then work with a sponsor and find out where you should apologize for your wrong where you should take action Because if we listened to ourselves we're GONNA get loaded again. Yeah absolutely man. To the first time I went through this I use my wife sponsor. What's up maybe a little bit? I used her as a sponsor did not work well because he will assign a book. She's an amazing person. She works our own program of recovery. And I want to say this about couples and recovery. There's a reason why you know. My sponsor doesn't say don't get in a relationship. He just says be aware of the consequences but there is a full blown reason why we do not get into relationships early in recovery because it shifts the higher power. Okay so when I when you get a new relationship. It's always been girl what's happened to why are you okay? What's so completely worried about this other person instead of worrying about my contact with a spiritual higher power shifts it shifts the whole thing. It's not you're already trying to beat some odds here. I've heard all kinds of odds on leaving treatment Some of them were like what is it ten percent to dismantle Scott. G told me it was seven percent seven percent coverage which is look. They didn't know how bad I was going to be pissed off about that because when they said seven percent. I'm like well I'm going to be one of them seven. 'cause I'm not going but everybody says that treatment will never use them again. You say you had some wheat. I worked for a government facility. I'm not I'm not a spy or And and we all the time that that are in the jail they come out with this one guy was out there one day and he said Bill. I never doing shit again methamphetamine again. I really because I got some new house thinking that didn't last long at all because it's about consequences and when we're a lot of people do this puts you on paper. The put your probation. And they can do good as long as their thumb on their back soon as they lift that thumb up is like. I'm free almost do it this one time and we're the king a one times because what happens is I tried. I can't do it one time. I'm not one of those people that just don't Save Dope. I don't know if you've ever saved owner. How what kind of boozy asked people saved dope but I do all of it and I do half years. I have literally held stole. Somebody's Shit and helped him look for it for eight hours like we didn't find it right here last time. I. If you've never done that well I don't know how you Matthew Boyle I love them you crack we'll stale your shit crackhead. All I did was out the blinds. I don't want anybody. And he said he has tore up about five hundred sets of Blinds Asians. By the way we need munitions sponsor because crack. Listen man you know you were talking earlier not GonNa Bring this back up about The relationships and different things wouldn't you say and it says in the book we acco- Hawks are undisciplined. But we also are obsessive people. Oh Yeah so another thing that I found really great about treatment. Not just for myself but some friends that I've been through there with was breaking some of those cycles of bad relationships dramatic bullshit that we just immerse ourselves in one of the things we do is look at our sexual conduct. Because we're we're selfish people and we also drowning man wants to put another man down with him not on purpose it's just you're reaching and grabbing for anything and he was talking about this earlier in a meeting today And what was what you talk about earlier in the meeting today? I don't remember that was this morning. Oh it was about an hour ago so Eddie was talking about earlier about being the the one black sheep of the family. That's always bring everybody down and everybody has all we gotta go get Outta town. They could add that. He's so sad so he's got a boost your family and I love them. I love but they're always we can fix is and so when you when you start getting your shit together. They're like what they wait. What are we supposed to do? And then another ignorant person gets the pop up. You don't have to be the ignorant your family. Every family has targeted. You can't think of who it is. He's probably so yeah right man but you know speaking of Fuck Tar was saying this this morning also that also learned in this past go round that that recovery and treatment is a chance to not to no longer be that. Fuck Tar yes. That's what I found so so beautiful about it was. I could stop being that person. I was really convinced man was convinced that I was always going to be the flake. The unemployed loser with a lot of drama going to jail going to psych ward which. I've been to several those two. Maybe we'll do an episode about that. My head appropriate governor. And but but don't you agree. We could stop being those people. We don't have to be a loser and we get to discover who we really are. Because I'm going to tell you. If I was going into the hood I could become who had gone over to my red. My redneck whatever. I needed to be to get what I wanted. And then today they're like well who are you man What did you do before you getting hired like Bitch I was thirteen? I like to touch myself. Read cartoons. I don't know what I like to do. Well Congratulations Day. We get the discovery. Go Play Golf. Go go fishing. Go Hunt whatever. I don't hunt anymore because I don't WANNA kill anything but I if you wanted to. That's great anything but using hanging out people that's using anything the only time. I will kill a deer if he's about to join isis stories about to try to kill a kid yet but I hit a dead deer there but yeah. I'm not angry at anything today. And I've been over these last three years to actually start start to discover myself and not in a sanctuary just normal and all just a normal way. 'cause you know it's amazing you know. It's a pretty. We've had some some some crazy weather here in the last couple of weeks But one of those pretty days come on my so thankful form and that's kind of like recovery if you've had really really bad days in your life when a good day comes you damn sure no it looks right and I don't think I had any good days. I had good days. Don't get me wrong but I mean like days where I was thankful to be alive and here birds saying I remember. I think I was about a month into recovery and I was outside and I heard these things in the trees and I'm like what the hell is that somebody said. Oh those are burt. They've been here from the hell. Have you been doing because I was so blocked off from my blessings that I couldn't hear anything? The noise was so loud in my head. I just wanted to what I say. Quiet the riot the right. Hey bring the noise rain. The normal feel the noise. Yeah and it was busy. Him filled right there so dirty. I dress like a pirate ones. For six months I would love to be of higher Has He ever meet Timbers Naaman talking about Zach gratitude man that's what Treatment did for me because I was so grateful to get the hell out of treatment too. I was like I actually love my wife and my house Dr. Welby a good day. Okay thankful you know but after I got my treatment I would go back there and visit the beach house anytime they want to pay per ticket. That's bill at because they did an amazing job and they're still doing amazing job today But there's good and bad rehabs the way I understand it. There's there's some down there that they're just trying to get a business. Just that's just like in life. There's good and bad people recovery. You're going to get into some rooms of recovery and there's going to be some people that are there to get the paper side this find you somebody. That's there for recovering. They're not hard to spot Sit Now pay attention a little while getting there. Okay these people are here trying to survive love life and and do this damn thing. It's not hard to spot him. I mean Yeah. There are some bullshit artist out there in every aspect of life. You know I don't people try to. They'll try to really separate things about recovers like man. There's there's some crazy people in here menace crazy people everywhere but get into advise you a group of people in recovery and stick with absolutely man phone. If you're a guy get some guy phone if your girl get some girl phone numbers and give this chance. Just while I man what is. It wasn't great when you got the treatment and you're actually around your people. Yeah I remember the first time. Oh my God man. I'm not the only one who's done is dumb bullshit and felt like this or not bet like this or whatever man it was. I had a very different. I had a family full of addicts and we got like Thanksgiving. We would cook a Turkey and not eat it covers so high and it was so confusing. I mean there was a bunch of us so I didn't feel alone in my but the crazy thing about it is. We all got clean and sober at the same time. And it's been weird but it's been awesome. Yeah really has had a point lost it. But that's okay we're GONNA rolling because we're fucked arts. We are the lord of up to artery. That's a word I don't know if any of these words see. I think I'm sitting in a studio with Andy Right now. There's a good chance I'M GONNA sign asylum stare at the wall going out because we've abused our brains over years all right so listen. We're running out of time. This went really fast today. I love treatment centers and ways to save our lives and like I said if you're listening to my voice tonight today this afternoon in the morning on your way to work. Whatever may give this a chance. I'll tell you what we'll do you give this a full real chance for a year and you don't like your life after that. We will be glad to refund all your misery in booze. Yeah guess what with interest. We'll even throw a twelve hundred dollar bottle. Yeah because life's GonNa get better. It always does and men were just so thankful for by listening today. Yep Pain is inevitable misery is optional. That's how I grow through pain. That's that's where I've learned my hardest. Lessons is the biggest pain in my life. And here's one last thing everything I went through that I thought this is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. In my life it turned out being the best I ever happened in my life so listen till next week may say. Oh Yeah I need to. Yeah if somebody was getting on my ass and he said last Your mom say no it was about. I think I called Dr Bob. An alcoholic also. He wasn't an hour. No got excited. Whatever man man. Yeah so Dr Bob. If somebody to dig by put a big. I'm sorry from Andy here. Our listeners who can plow. We'll talk about that after the show. I'm pissed we. I said something like the first or second episodes picks up you know what I don't care this is me an Andy What I like to call Porch Talkin? Now absolutely talking. If somebody finds it interesting or helpful even more power to you and like I say. Hit US up on our eight minutes so you liked the show where we got going on. I mean I'll still working Eddie's a complete bomb right now he sits touches itself and maybe he watches MOMS a lot during today. I watch I love monk and you know everybody's turned into a month these days wipe wipe. Here's the thing I love and remember. You're good enough. You're smart enough and Doggone it people like you. Ooh I like that right. We're out baby.

Andy Andy Bill UK Chevrolet heroin Yahoo PAIN cocaine Eddie West Palm Beach adobe Florida Andy Right Dr Bob Old School Hariri Kuwait Austin Dale
The 2020 Disinformation War

Fresh Air

48:19 min | 1 year ago

The 2020 Disinformation War

"From whyy in Philadelphia. I'm terry gross with fresh air today. The twenty twenty disinformation war. The trump campaign is planning to spend more than one billion dollars in a lot of it will go toward disinformation and propaganda. That's what our guests McKay cop says in his new Atlantic article as part of his his research. He created a new facebook account so he could like Maga- related pages joined mega groups and received the messaging being sent to trump supporters. Some of it was partisan spin but a lot of it. Frankly was just completely false. It'll tell us what he learned about the new techniques the campaign and its supporters are using to spread disinformation discredit journalists and dismantle mainstream media. We have a president who has the powers of incumbency willing to do things that most presidents have not shown a willingness to do. That's coming up on fresh air. A the trump campaign is planning to spend more than one billion dollars and and will be aided by a vast coalition of partisan media outside political groups and freelance operatives who are poised to wage. What could be the most extensive disinformation campaign in US history? Whether or not it's exceeds in reelecting the president the wreckage leaves behind could be irreparable. That's what my guest. McKay coppins writes in his article. The twenty twenty disinformation war deep fakes anonymous text messages Potemkin local new sites an opposition research on reporters a field guide to the year's election. And what it could do to the country. It's published in the march issue of the Atlantic or coppins ends is a staff writer while researching the peace. He tried to live in the same information. World as trump supporters. So that he'd received the same disinformation supporters. Orders did in his article. He explains the surprising impact that had on him coppins wrote a twenty fifteen book called the wilderness deep inside the Republican. Republican Party's combative. Contentious chaotic quest to take back the White House. McKay coppins welcome back to fresh air. So what was your mission when you we started this piece trying to understand how disinformation works. Well I guess it came from a place of curiosity primarily because as a political reporter I kept encountering encountering people either on the campaign trail or at rallies or just even my day to day life. who believed things that just were were probably false? Also these were matters of different opinion. They weren't different Ideological views the they just. They were factual things that a a lot of people seemed to to believe that. Were not true and you know as a reporter. I'm always interested in kind of the systems that that lead to These views rather than kind of just interrogating individual people. So I I knew of course that. The trump campaign was You know how to how to shaky relationship with the truth To put it lightly and I knew that they were Very digitally sophisticated much more so than in two thousand sixteen so I wanted to kind of go inside that world and see what they were doing to shape their supporters view of the world and also to get their message out so to do this. You had to get a right list. So you'd get the tax you'd see the tweets you'd get you'd see the right facebook book accounts and facebook. Ads What did you do to get on the right lists. Well you know it started. I just gave my my cell phone number to the trump campaign so I would get their their texts and I did a few other things but what was most illuminating. Was this facebook account that I created I kind of sat down and built a separate profile from my own With a fake name. A kind of picture of my face obscured and started clicking like on Donald. Trump's Official page his reelection campaigns page and and various other associated pages basically signaling facebook that I was interested in pro-trump content tent from there the algorithm Kind of prodded me to follow various other conservative pages conservative. Pundit Ann Coulter Fox Business S. Fan pages for trump I also joined a couple of Of private groups on facebook for You know trump super fans uh-huh and combined. This created a news feed on my facebook account. That was you know. Just filled with pro-trump content and I got a good sense of kind of the What what the campaign was pumping out on a day-to-day basis? Tell us some of the typical messages. That you've got and some of the more outrageous ones well as you can imagine. A lot of them were Sort of traditional if especially Xiaodi Odi and aggressive partisan messages you know this is a hoax. This is a witch hunt Do you know the Democrats are out to invalidate the two thousand sixteen election election. Things like that that maybe as a political reporter I've become desensitized to but they're not completely outside the bounds of a typical messaging around impeachment battle. Frankly I think that what I saw. That was different. was first of all the volume of the content that they're putting out on. facebook is pretty overwhelming You know the the way that facebook is structured when you're scrolling through a news feed There it never ever ends right. It just keeps repopulating with more and more content and as I would kind of spend time Lying in bed at night or in my office scrolling rolling through it it would almost become overwhelming. There's just this torrent of a messaging and kind of propagandistic posts. And the more that you saw the more they you kind of become desensitized to it and some of it was partisan spin but a lot of it frankly was just completely false or or posts that were designed to recast the What was happening in the impeachment proceedings and make people think that something entirely different when was happening so give us a sense of the more fictitious narratives that you were reading so the overall narrative that they were pushing? When was that President trump was in this Ukraine matter primarily interested in cracking down on foreign corruption and Democrats. Were you're trying to use this to plot or execute a coup This is a word that comes up over and over again. That was kind of the message that they were pushing But throughout out the impeachment proceedings every day that there was a new witness or a new development in the case The trump campaign would put out these new videos or these ads is that were designed to Convince you almost that. The opposite happened so There were days when I would watch the impeachment hearings live on TV TV. And I would see what I felt. Like was pretty damning testimony about the president's conduct in the Ukraine matter And then I would check in on this facebook feed and I would see a video that the trump campaign put out that took elements of that testimony but cut them together and recast them to make it look like it. It was an exoneration of the president there would also be campaign videos that made it appear that all of the witnesses and the impeachment proceedings were just offering their opinions or how they felt and that they weren't presenting any new facts which was also clearly not true but if you were an average Trump supporting news consumer who it wasn't following along on the impeachment proceedings day today and to saw these videos. You would think that that was the fact that was what was happening. Will you were following the impeachment Richmond proceedings. What impact did this counter narrative and often fictitious counter narrative? Well what impacted that have on you. I mean I have to say I was actually pretty surprised by the effect it had impart because I went into. This exercise has a journalist knowing what I was doing and I felt that you know. Oh my inherent skepticism of the trump. Campaign's messaging and kind of my media literacy is somebody who's a journalist. Does this professionally would kind kind of inoculate me against any of these distortions. But in fact I found that I became overtime reflexively suspicious this of every headline I encountered. It wasn't that I believe. The president is allies. We're telling the truth through that. Their narrative was true. It was more that I had this heightened suspicion or cynicism about the all the content surrounding the impeachment proceedings and. I started to question everything. Frankly I made. It was almost like the Truth about impeachment or the Ukraine affair or any other political issue felt difficult to find signed amid the rubble of mangled facts and partisan spin. And the more time that I spent in this facebook feed the more felt like observable reality itself it almost drifted out of reach. It turns out. There's a word for this expression for this say scholars call this. Censorship through noise always explain what censorship through noise is. You know it's interesting it's a it's a term scholars use to describe what illiberal political leaders have done in other countries countries. which is you know in the past the way that illiberal Autocrats or or dictators or whatever function is that they would do what they they could to censor dissenting information they would shut down opposition newspapers. They would jail journalists They would cut off access to information that challenged their authority or power and that still happens sometimes but a lot of these. These liberal leaders have discovered that in the Internet age in the Social Media Age in what scholars call the information abundance age. It's it's a lot. Easier to harness the power of social media for their own means so rather than shutting down dissenting voices. They've learned to use the democratizing our social media to jam the signals or so confusion they don't have to You know silence the dissident who shouting in the streets. They can actually just drown him out. And I think that Over time you've seen this in other countries certainly and The Baltic states in Eastern Europe Russia If Journalism and facts ax are treated as equal in credibility to partisan propaganda or lies from political leaders. If it's all one level playing field then it becomes almost impossible for political leaders to be held accountable for their actions because you have a population that's either disengaged or distracted needed or confused and unable to kind of respond to the various corruptions and Scandals and things that they're getting away with you say that the trump trump campaign might be the most extensive disinformation campaign in US history. What are some of the signs of that? You combine the fact that this president is willing. I'm to lie. And traffics and conspiracy theories and says things that are untrue. At a rate that is kind of unprecedented for a president with all all of these new tools and these new technologies and Social Media and what you have is a presidential campaign that is pushing pushing lies and distortions and conspiracy theories into the bloodstream at an unprecedented rate with tools that enable them to To to do it much more efficiently effectively Than any kind of you know. Demagogue leader in generations past. And that's what I mean when I say that this is GonNa be unprecedented it. There's going to be a lot more money involved. The tools are a lot more powerful and we have a president who has the powers of incumbency federal government behind him Willing to do things that most presidents have not shown a willingness to do so trump has more money money and more influence now to spread disinformation than he did during the two thousand sixteen campaign. Absolutely I mean you have to remember in two thousand sixteen ecksteen. Donald Trump first of all was what started out as one of sixteen Republican presidential candidates. He was not somebody who had a large sophisticated ticketed campaign staff in fact most of the people who went to work for him. Were kind of be team gives who didn't get hired by any of the other front runners early in the primaries He also was a reality TV star. He certainly had a lot of reach because he was famous but he wasn't a president of the United States now. He's an incumbent. He has the ability to use and leverage his incumbency for reelection and he's already shown a willingness to to use that power in ways that are pretty brazen You know I talk about the two thousand eighteen midterm elections where he actually seized on the stories about a migrant caravan travelling to the southern border from Central America and made that a central campaign issue in the final weeks of the election. Listen and to draw attention to it. He militarize the border he. He's dispatched troops to the southern border. Now I should say the president of course defended those actions saying that. This was all in the name of national security to keep the country protected but within weeks after the midterms he quietly began calling back those troops from the southern border And so I think a lot of skeptic saw that and realized that this president has a lot of power a willingness to use it and if he was willing to do that just to pick up a few seats in the midterms it begs the question. What he's willing to do to win reelection so we've been talking about how? The trump campaign is using social media and using it. In part two so disinformation the person presiding over the trump campaign pain digital effort is Brad. Pascal who was also the Digital Director of Trump's twenty sixteen campaign What are some of the techniques that you think he came up with well? You know. It's interesting Brad. Parks cal is not somebody with a background in politics in fact In Two thousand sixteen the way he got into the campaign was he was hired to design a simple landing page for the trump presidential exploratory committee. which you know seemed at the time like I if anything was a publicity stunt maybe a Lark but did not seem like a serious thing but because Huzzah Parse Gal have this history with the trump family. He had worked for them in the past and because he was cheap and didn't have a lot of the pretensions that other political cooperatives add Trump kind of liked him and brought him into the inner circle But when you talk to people who worked with him on that campaign they say hey that his political experience was actually an advantage because he was really willing to experiment with new tools that other presidential angel campaigns kind of looked at disdainfully or thought were generally untested or unproven. One of the things that he got really good at was was using facebook ads particularly micro targeted facebook ads to raise money and fire up the faithful and target persuadable voters and so Micro targeting is the process of basically you take the electorate you slice it up into very small distinct specific acidic niches and then you create ads that speak directly to those niches and facebook allows campaigns to Create these ads and serve them to very small group so whereas in the past a presidential campaign would after create an ad and put it on TV and all kinds of different people would see it now they can create an ad. Let's say that calls for the defunding of planned parenthood which is a divisive political issue or stance and rather than the kind of blasting it on national TV they can serve it directly to eight hundred Roman Catholic pro-life women in Dubuque Iowa and they. They know that it will probably get a more positive result that way and the Republican Party has information on just about what every voter to help them figure out who to target. Yeah it's been reported that the the RNC and the trump campaign have compiled an average of three thousand data points on every voter in America. And so that that means everything from what you like to watch on TV. What kind of stores you shop at whether you've been to a gun show or own gun You they they've compiled all this data And they can use it to carefully Taylor messages just for you And I should say that this is not unique to the trump campaign. This isn't something. Brad Parse Cowan vented Barack Obama's campaign famously did it in two thousand twelve. The Clinton campaign did did it as well in two thousand sixteen. But the trump campaign's effort was different different both because it was much more extensive and also frankly a lot more brazen one example. I give the pieces in two thousand sixteen. The the trump campaign in the final weeks of the race tried to depress black turnout in Florida by micro targeting adds to black voters in that state. That that said Hilary thinks. African Americans are superpredators so drawing from that famous controversial comment that Clinton had made in the nineties but obviously taking it out of context and generalizing it a bit more than I think. The average fact checker would say is okay. The they micro targeted these two black black voters not even really to win them over or get them to vote for trump but to keep them away from the polls and we only know about that specific case because trump trump campaign official boasted about it at the time and said this is one of three major voter suppression efforts that we have that are underway But the campaign campaign puts out so many facebook ads that it's really difficult for journalists are watchdog groups to To Wade through all of them just as an example all in the ten weeks after the impeachment proceedings began the trump campaign ran fourteen thousand ads on facebook containing the word impeachment richemont so as as a comparison between what Republicans have done and Democrats. You write that from June to November during trump's campaign campaign in two thousand sixteen trump's campaign to got five point nine million ads on facebook Hillary Clinton's campaign took out sixty six thousands so again. That's five point nine million ads versus sixty six thousand ads on facebook What does that say to you you and do you expect that this time around those numbers will be similarly disproportionate? Well probably not. I mean a a part of the reason that the trump campaign was willing to go so heavy on facebook. Ads was frankly because they didn't have the money that the Clinton campaign did to to PUT UP TV ads which are more expensive and more difficult place and so this was actually kind of something they stumbled upon that really worked for for them In Twenty Twenty Democrats seem much more attuned to the realities of our information ecosystem and realize that to reach voters others. They're going to have to be on facebook and Google and really go heavy on online advertising. But I will say that. The president still has a distinct advantage in part because he has so much more money than any of the Democratic candidates. He formed his reelection campaign immediately after he was inaugurated and Hyundai started raising money right away and so they have a huge war chest and so it seems likely that the trump campaign will still come out ahead. Ed My guest is McKay. Coppins a staff writer for the Atlantic. His new article is titled The Twenty Twenty Disinformation War after a break. We'll talk about how trump allies have scraped the social media accounts of hundreds of political journalists searching for embarrassing posts to be used against them when a story Tori is deemed unfair or politically damaging. I'm Terry Gross. And this is fresh air support for NPR in the following message come from Tiaa committed into the idea that while most things in life run out from clean shirts in the morning to a favorite dessert at night lifetime income in retirement shouldn't learn more at Tiaa dot org slash. Never run out. Let's get back to my interview with McKay coppins. WHO's new article? The twenty twenty. Disinformation war is in the current issue of the Atlantic or coppins is a staff writer. He writes about how the trump campaign and a vast coalition of partisan media outside political groups and freelance operatives are poised to wage would could be the most extensive disinformation campaign in US history as part of his research. Combines tried to live in the same media and social media world trump supporters so. He could monitor the information or disinformation. They were receiving. Mark Zuckerberg is allowing candidates to place false political ads. He's not he's decided. Facebook should not have editorial control over that. How does that compare with commercial ads on facebook? Yeah this is a very important point because when a company places an ad on facebook it it is subject to fact checking. It's not allowed to say obviously false things about its product and if it does facebook will remove that ad and AH punish that that client that is not true of political as Mark Zuckerberg came under a lot of pressure after the two thousand sixteen election to crack down on the spread of misinformation on his platform and he rolled out a flurry of of reforms. but in the end decided that it was in there place to prevent a political ads. That are dishonest or even just completely on factual he believes that because political ads ads receive a lot of scrutiny already from the press and from opposition parties and from watchdogs that they it's not facebook's role to to to censor them that He lets politicians put out whatever odds they want and and Let's kind of the electorate decide whether they're true or not it sounds like during this campaign that the trump campaign is emphasizing texting more than it did in two thousand sixteen and you were receiving trump campaign pain texts. How is the texting platform seen as a particularly good one for the campaign? Yeah and I bet a lot of your listeners have experienced this you know. There's been a huge uptick in unsolicited political tax. Messages this campaign season. And there's a reason for that so until pretty recently You had to opt in to receive mass text messages from politicians campaigns But there are these new APPS. It's called peer to peer texting APPs that allow people volunteers campaign staffers. Whoever to send hundreds of messages and our they just literally have to sit thera impress? Click over and over and over again and that's considered by the FCC to be not mass texting but one on one texting texting and so a lot of campaigns have taken advantage of this loophole and begun using these peer to peer texting. APPs to send out You know send out messages to millions of people unsolicited. The trump campaign has gone on this strategy much more than other campaigns pains have A. That's in part because one of their senior officials gary. Kobe developed one of these peer to peer texting APPS. But the reason that they're seen as so valuable arguable is because unlike Robo calls that get sent to voice mail or email blasts that get ignored trapped in spam folders These peer to peer texting company. You say that at least ninety percent of their messages are opened and so this is a very effective way to reach a lot of voter one of the things you learned about in writing reading about the disinformation war was how the trump inner circle amplifies their attacks against journalists who they see as being anti trump So give us an example of one of the stories you know. They're journalist wrote that resulted in a whole campaign against him. Yeah yeah well. I was kind of made aware of this effort Last year. I was on the phone with a Republican operative who is close to the trump family working on a separate red story and he casually mentioned over the course of our conversation that there was a reporter at business insider the website That was about to have a very bad day and The journalist in this case at tweeted something that annoyed Donald Trump Junior The the president's son and and that had prompted the president sons kind of inner circle his friends and allies to work together to put together a hit piece on on this journalist And when I was talking to this operative he was Kinda bragging. The you know. The story is going to demolish the journalist's credibility Just just wait. It's GonNa be great and I honestly I didn't really know what to make of it a lot of the sources that I talked to in trump world tend to Boast gloat a lot and and there's not always a lot of follow through but a few hours after that the operative sent me a link to this Breitbart news story targeting this this particular journalist and his history of intense trump patriot. That was the headline and what the story was based on was a series of instagram posts that the journalists Ted posted in which he was seen kind of making fun of the President or making political jokes or expressing solidarity with with liberal causes And the the Breitbart story quickly kind of ricocheted around the conservative Social Media Sphere Don Jr.. I tweeted we did this story to his followers calling the journalist a raging Lib and other conservatives piled on and called for him to be fired and You know his employer released east a statement saying that the the posts were not appropriate. And I talked to this journalist after the after the whole thing happened. And he said that you know it was very bizarre or an unsettling and he had the feeling that this was somehow a coordinated effort but he couldn't quite prove it What I ended up finding as I did some more reporting on this is that There is a very organized project by a coalition of trump allies to air embarrassing information about reporters there's who produce critical coverage of trump Well in fact he say that. The trump organization has basically vacuumed vacuumed. Up a lot of information and old social media Moose by a lot of journalists particularly ones who they think might say negative things about trump so that they have this negative information that they could use against the journalist as needed. Yeah so I what what's been described to me is that they have this dossier where like you said yes. They've scraped all these social media posts and the I've even been told that they have. They hired a programmer to turn it into a searchable database so basically anytime a story is published that is deemed kind of especially unfair or per politically damaging being to president trump They will search this database For the journalists involved the journalists who wrote the story maybe editors at the same outlet let and see if they have anything embarrassing about those journalists and if they do they can turn that over to the right wing press breitbart usually is is involved and and turn it into a story that will hopefully in their view discredit the journalist or at least embarrass them and and And ideally make them lose their jobs jobs. Have you found a specific example where trump operatives our allies have used information from one of these dossiers to attack journalists. Yeah Yeah there've been a few examples. They've gone after journalists at CNN. Washington Post New York Times. These are some of the outlets that the president complains about most often In one case they exposed a reporter for using a homophobic slur in college And another They found Anti Semitic and racist jokes that the reporter order at posted a decade earlier And in both of those cases the reporters apologized. They didn't lose their jobs. So these weren't like career ending revelations but what I've heard is that they have a lot more information they're planning to deploy it strategically over the next nine or ten months as the campaign heats up and then you found a whole mechanism wants wants information from the dossier is plucked out to be used against the journalists. There's a whole mechanism for amplifying it. What's that mechanism so often? What happens I'm told is that? Donald trump junior will flag a story in a text thread that he uses for this purpose That adding he often text with GOP operatives and and conservative media People and once the story's been in March for attack someone will search doc- for material and the journalists involved. If they find something they'll turn it over to Breitbart they'll turn that into a headline and then MM once that's out on on the Internet White House officials in campaign surrogates can share it on social media to try to discredit the journalists. While still maintaining -taining distance from the effort. The White House has denied that they're involved in this but they have shared stories attacking journalists Using kind of Breitbart content in the past. So what you're describing this feedback loop were somebody like like Don Jr. or a trump operative sends a story to Breitbart Breitbart. Bart writes the story and the headline can be tweeted out by Republican operatives or done junior in addition to Fox News. So you like you send the story to Breitbart. Breitbart writes the headline. Then you re tweeted. It looks like Breitbart said. We're just amplifying that when they're just amplifying the message of Don on junior and there is operatives. That's exactly right and you know what's notable about this because I think that some people read about this effort or might hear about this effort and say look you know. There's nothing wrong with exposing that. A journalist has a liberal political bias if they're not Forthright about that. But I think what's notable about. This is that you know in the past conservatives have complained about a liberal slant in the media and I think that that's often meredith. I think that they have some good points about that. But the people involved in in this effort are not trying to critique the mainstream media or reform it or bring more balance or conservative voices into it they are very deliberately shortly trying to discredit and dismantle the mainstream media altogether in fact Matthew Boyle an editor at Breitbart who ah often involved in this effort gave a speech at the heritage foundation in two thousand seventeen where he said journalistic integrity is dead. There is no such thing anymore. You're so everything now is about weaponization of information. And that's really at the root of this whole enterprise they're not trying to you Make journalists be better or get them to do their jobs better they're trying to discredit them and weaponize information and make it so that journalism And facts are seen as on par with political talking points and propaganda. So that you just give up trying to discern the difference between the tale that EV- exactly that everybody feels like you know this is all just a matter of opinion. It's all a matter of world view. It's not a matter of facts all have my side effects. You have your setbacks and that's fine let's take a short break here and then we'll talk more about the disinformation war in the presidential campaign. If you're just joining us my guest is McKay. Coppins a staff writer for the Atlantic and the disinformation war as the title of his new article. We'll be right back. This is fresh air. You want to play in the very same place as chance the rapper Taylor Swift Yoyo Ma midst. If you're an unsigned musician you could play at. NPR music famous. Tiny rainy desk. Just submit a video to the tiny contest. Find out more and see the official rules at NPR dot org slash tiny contest. This is fresh fresh air. And if you're just joining us my guest McKay coppins a staff writer for the Atlantic. His new pieces called the disinformation war field. Guide to this year's election and what it could due to the country I want to get back to the discrediting of journalists and digging up embarrassing information and storing it and then use using when when the time is right to attack them. Do you think this is having a chilling effect on journalists because let's face it a lot of journalists now not only getting attacked on social media. They're getting death threats. I mean their families are are in are being threatened to. It's it's really a terrible a terrible period in that sense yes so I would say two things. One is that the journalists I know who cover the administration administration do try to keep this noise Out of their mind when they're doing their jobs but it is hard right in the back of your mind you can't help but wonder You know when are these people going to come after me What what what do they have on me What what are they going going to say or make up to try to embarrass me or get me in trouble with my bosses? It's just natural that you you would have those his thoughts around in the back of your mind even while you try to keep them at bay as you focus on doing your job. The other thing I would say is that You know there are certainly more dangerous places to be a journalist And and I don't think that the average Washington journalist Leicester Political reporter in America is facing anything like the kinds of threats that reporter's face in other countries where you have A much much more fragile. Democracy and civil rights are much more fragile That's said it is clear that these trump allies Efforts to discredit the institution of the press. Are Drawing direct. Lessons from a lot of those countries. you know because illiberal leaders have long ago learned that Wendy press as an institution is discredited or weekend. It makes it a lot easier for them to get away with the things they want to get away with. have any trump operatives gone after you because of your piece on the disinformation more in the Atlantic not yet The you know they're certainly been criticisms From the right and the trump campaign put out a statement saying that my story was itself. Disinformation which which kind of neatly encapsulates? I think what we've been talking about here but nobody's no. Nobody's come after me directly though I have had my brushes with pro-trump operative and allies in the past. Give us an example. Well actually the. The first example sample was years and years ago before he was even running for President I wrote a profile of him in two thousand fourteen when he was. I thinking about running for president and I ended up spending a couple of days it mar-a-lago with him through a kind of fluke blizzard. That caused him to reroute out his plane. Tomorrow Lago while I was on it with him He suffice it to say he did not like The profile that I wrote and it was interesting because now looking back on it he was sort of foreshadowing all the attacks that he would wage on the press once he ascended to political power but at the time you know he tweeted a lot of nasty things about me he actually did place. A story in Breitbart was completely fictitious Accusing me of behaving boorishly. When I was at his at his resort Specifically toward the women there And you know made a lot other false claims about me at the time he was just kind of this reality. TV Show Guy and it was a little disconcerting to experience it but it it all felt kind of like a game almost I knew that the things he was saying were untrue. Most of the people in my life just laughed it off and we all kind of moved on with our lives but and now that he's using the same tactics as president of the United States with a lot more resources and a lot more power. I think it's much more alarming And and this kind of treatment of the press should be given a lot more attention. I WANNA get back to some of the techniques that are being used now to spread this information information. You're right that The trump campaign is planning to open up a new front which is local news. What's the plan? Yeah Brad Brad. Parks Gal Trump's campaign manager spoke to donors in Miami last year and actually said that one of the things he wants to do is train swarms surrogate those are his words to undermine negative coverage from local. TV stations and newspapers. He I actually Got A recording. Being of this speech that the Palm Beach Post gave to me wherein he said we can actually build up and fight with the local newspapers. So we're not just fighting on Fox News. CNN IN AN MSNBC with the same seven hundred thousand people watching every day And you know this is a pretty cunning if I think troubling Approach because if you look at polls it's been true for a long time that Americans trust the local press more than they do the National Press and a lot of the negative coverage that's probably most damaging to the president comes from hometown newspapers or local newspapers in election years. So Brad Par Scowl has talked about building an apparatus basically to take the war with the press to a local level. There are also apparently creating creating versions of the local press. That aren't really local. Yeah this is a a kind of strange trend. That people began noticing a couple years ago. There's been all these websites popping up across the Internet with innocuous names like the Arizona Monitor and the Kalamazoo Times and if if you look at them. They look like local news websites you know. They have coverage of schools and coverage of gas prices and community notices. But if you actually study them. There are often no bylines on the stories. No mastheads There's no local addresses And it turns out that a lot of these are actually owned and operated by Republican lobbying groups or Or just third party businesses. There's one one company called locality labs CBS which is run by a conservative activist Illinois. That's behind a lot of these websites and readers are given no indication that these sites have a political agenda which is kind of what makes them valuable so I spoke to one Political strategist who told me that the way that these are often used. Is that a candidate who's looking to plant a negative story about say. A Democratic opponent can actually pay to have the headline that they want posted on some some of these These new sites US News in quotes these phone news sites And by working through a third party consulting firm instead of paying the sites directly they actually are able to obscure their involvement in the scheme when they filed their finance reports to the Federal Election Commission so Basically you have political candidates dictating the coverage. They want getting it. Placed in these pho- local news sites and the average reader who sees it probably just assumes it's it's a real local news site especially as the real local press has become hollowed out over the past couple of decades These sites have filled that vacuum. You but as basically political propaganda outfits so this is where we are now when it comes to some local stories. You not only have to ask yourself. Is this a story true. But is the website real. Is this publication a real local publication. Yes that's right and look. It's asking an enormous amount amount of the average news. Consumer who does not spend our is a day like I do frankly You know reading the news and reading various publications applications They're just trying to check in on something or they're scrolling through facebook looking at photos of their grandkids and they come across a a headline like like this. They're inclined to believe it. especially if it's in a website like the ones that are being designed but frankly You should should not trust a website that you're not familiar with and that you don't know to be trustworthy just because it looks like it's a local news aside. Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us my guest is McKay. COPPINS staff writer for the Atlantic is new pieces called the disembarkation war a field guide to this year's election and what it could do to the country. We'll be back after we take a short break. This is fresh air. Steve Assembling knows that one point Hollywood had a very. Are we clear idea the kind of character. They wanted him to play. Whenever I would get a script I would see what page I could beat up on trying to kill somebody somebody or when I get killed? That's on this week's Bullseye. From maximum fun DOT ORG and NPR support for NPR comes from whyy presenting the pulse. Else a podcast that takes you on adventures into unexpected corners of health and science plastic in the guts of deep sea creatures crying after anesthesia building. Building your own Internet. Each episode is full of fascinating stories and big ideas the pulse available. Where you get your podcasts? Or at W. H. Y. Y.. Dot Org. This is fresh air. And if you're just joining us my guest is McKay. Coppins a staff writer for the Atlantic. His new pieces called the disinformation war deep fakes anonymous text messages with token local new sites and opposition research on reporters a field guide to this year's election and what it can do to the country. The question Russian has been raised if Republicans are using dirty tricks especially dirty tricks in the digital sphere. Does that mean in order to win the Democrats have to do that to. This is an active debate among democratic strategists. Right now there are some who say this is precisely the wrong time for Democrats to abandoned it in their principles of fairness and honesty and that we need to be the Party of truth and honesty but there are others who have argued a pretty forcefully and pretty transparently that the only way to contend with the president's reelection effort is to co-opt his tactics Knicks and improve upon them. There is one Guy Dimitry Mel Horn. WHO's a democratic consultant kind of notorious for experimenting with digital dirty tricks during the Alabama special election? In two thousand seventeen he helped fund to different false flag operations against Roy. Moore you remember. The Republican Senate candidate in one scheme full Russian twitter bots actually followed the candidates account and mass to make it look like Russia. Russia was backing more and in another there was a social media campaign dubbed Dry Alabama was designed to make it look like more a had the support of Baptist teetotalers who wanted to ban alcohol and it was. It was all fictional. I should note that Mel Horn is actually said he was unaware of these efforts. Doesn't support the use of misinformation but his group did help fund them and more broadly there are Democrats that are pointing to these efforts. And say we need to do more of that and do it on a much bigger scale if we're going to defeat trump let your reaction to that you you know as a journalist. My bias is strongly toward truth and accuracy and I have a lot of concern about what will happen to our information ecosystem if the Democrats decide to escalate and do and mimic the tactics that president trump and his allies are undertaking. I think that Right now my biggest concern going and forward after the two thousand twenty election is not really who wins which party wins Who Comes Away with power in the short term? It's what what happens to our information ecosystem now If we get to a situation where Democrats and Republicans have both fully bought awed into the idea. That truth is irrelevant. That advancing disinformation is the only way to win. An election will end up in a situation that a lot of other other countries have found themselves in where the average voter on a day to day. Basis has no idea what is true in the news what to believe and generally disengages disengages and just throws up their hands and that I think is a very dangerous situation pro democracy McKay coppins. Thank you so much for coming back to fresh air. Thank you for having McKay. COPPINS is a staff writer for the Atlantic is New article is titled The Twenty Twenty Disinformation War tomorrow on fresh fresh air. Our guest will be MSNBC legal analyst. Jill wine banks who was a young lawyer in the Special Prosecutor's office during the Watergate investigation she'll talk about confronting Nixon administration insiders on the witness. Stand enduring sexism in the courtroom and how the Watergate probe differs from investigations is Inter President Trump. She's written a new book. Called the Watergate girl. I hope you can join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews interviews and reviews are produced and edited by any solid foods Myers Sam brigger Lauren crandall Heidi Simone Theresa Madden. They challenge your moods. Eighty and Seth Kelly. I'm Terry Gross.

Donald Trump president facebook Trump US reporter McKay coppins Fresh Air staff writer Breitbart Breitbart Atlantic trump Republican Party official NPR Terry Gross Brad Brad
Ep 18: Lotta: Cultural Flexibility with Mandarin Chinese and Finnish

Changing Scripts: Conversations about Mandarin Chinese with native speakers and learners

1:07:24 hr | 1 year ago

Ep 18: Lotta: Cultural Flexibility with Mandarin Chinese and Finnish

"Doing so well and encouraging people on your bond me hunts need to about how and that's not very common in Finnish. We don't receive or give confidence. I think general before we do is it holds a really deep sense of welcome to the changes cups podcast where we describe our language learning stories with the focus right now on Mandarin Chinese. My name is Stephanie, and I was an English language instructor for about fifteen years. Mostly in Asia. Also, I was learning how to read Mandarin Chinese for about a year before taking the current language. Learning breaks that I'm on. Now, this podcast is part of the chaining scripts pod Tutu experience, which is part podcast part YouTube channel, the YouTube channel is where I share my own slow, but steady language thirty experience learning to read Mandarin Chinese, I share my challenges questions frustrations. And in this podcast, we chat both with people who grew up using Mandarin Chinese as well as people like myself who learned it as an adult in this particular podcast EPA. Episode. We talked to lotta who is a finished college student who lived in Shanghai China between high school and university. I would say gap year, but it was more than a year during part of that time, she took an intensive Chinese-language courts. And that's part of what she shares with us. She has continued her Chinese language learning since leaving Shanghai. But she's done it in a slightly different way using TV shows and some other things lotta in this interview shares with us her intensive Mandarin Chinese classroom experience how she use the language outside of the classroom. I'm so much more about her language learning process. She also compares Mandarin Chinese to finish Swedish and some other languages that. She has at her disposal. A quick note that low does mother peo- was a guest on the ex Pat rewind podcast last year, where she shared her first impressions of Shanghai after moving here from Finland high Pia, if you have any comments or questions about this episode's, please feel free to connect with me on any social media platform. My handles the same everywhere it Steph Puccio, it's s. T E P H F U C C, I o you can also see any and all of my projects at Steph Fujio, same spelling dot we bleed W E L Y dot com. That has all three of my podcasts. Let's meet load and find out what her language learning story was. Thank you so much slowed over joining us on changing scripts podcast today. Thank you, so nice to see you hit states do do. So let's get started. Let it could you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your language history. Yeah. So I am twenty one years old. I house studied some English some Swedish denier stating China for one and a half years and with my family as studied Chinese in university. And after this I came back to Finland and now I'm studying of the else like engineering and stuff. The main focus of the podcast is on learning. A news in Mandarin. Chinese I do like to start with whatever languages came before they learned Mandarin Chinese. So let's dig back into your childhood. But what what is your first language? So I first language is Finnish. A do. You have any memories of learning it either before you started going to school or in school setting? Well, the first time I. Went to kindergarten. It was actually in Swedish I learned finish at home before. I remember my parents reading lots of initials weedy spokes for me so used to have the those around homeless, and we used to learn learn speaking reading through look of let stories than mostly what I remember my parents rating for men and stuff like that. Don't believe me. Learning to speak English for the first time. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny. Now that you say that most people I talked to don't remember when like starting to speak or learning to speak with a lot of people remember learning to read and learning to write. Yeah. That's true. I wonder why that is maybe it's a lot harder. I don't know. What would those the stories that they're reading too? Well, I think it was slow so bogged like just on children's books and stories return for children. I remember like stories about finish Clark elect finish old sarees adapted to like watering folks than. Stuff like that. Some really nice like children's book send Derm pitcher since the Fleck this. Yeah. Yeah. Did you have a favorite book that you ask them to re again, and again and again McGinn? Yeah. I used to love finished book. It's less about air girl that went to island to live with her grandfather. And they made like some Honey breads, and I always wanted to hear the story. I wanted to eat the unabridged night really like that. That's really cool. What was remember the name of that book? I some saying like are like my in the archipelago wrestling like that. But I don't remember that show. That's really get said sounds like you had the travel pretty early in life than. Yeah. Got do. You have any memories of learning length language languages than I know that in the kindergarten way. Also like it was about it was in Swedish. So it was in the environment. The teachers would just expanded to us and fakest big Finnish. Or Swedish afterwards. I transferred to English speaking a kindergarten because we had expertise in the. So as I went to English speaking kindergarten. It was a lot about like, I don't really remember than busy teaching the language it just just Rhonda's on. We had like a preview to play games and watch some cartoons and have fun with it. Right. So it it wasn't a really apparent that. They were teaching language was just in the way reading tour. Did you sit in the daylight? I think very nice furnace. So it sounds like by first grade. You ready been exposed to 'em. We're using Finnish. Swedish and English. Is that correct? Yeah. To some degree you like not so much. But yeah, that was the beginning of a head some understanding of those how big is the difference between Finnish and Swedish. They have like influenced each other are mostly Swedish has influenced finished a butts like. Like, the structure, and the grammar is very different. It's very much about Swedish. I think is more like flowing finish a lot about life changing the birds, according to the situation than is just like coke located structures and Swede lots. I think like it's flows really nicely on his leg grade. They are not from similar country. Crohn's? Don't have I'll language families. Yeah. Soviet? But so is Swedish Norwegian and the those which is not very close to center other finish as close to like Estonia Lennart. Okay. Read the first Phelan has been partisan. So as being has a like, a switch speaking Swedish people like this finished, Sweden culture. Unusually in finished like primary and secondary schools is finishing Swedish both used interchangeably. Or is it mostly finish in my school? It's mostly finish your knee have also Swedish schools, but we learned Swedish you can choose to learn from the fourth grade and then studied through like the high school bus. My CT is very a lot of people. So that's like a heart of sets in other people arts offended not. So like useful. Swedish speaking on people's. But mostly in Finnish than have separate Swedish Kasese in your childhood. Did you lean more towards liking speaking or more towards raiding or we're we're to like to use language? I think I really liked the reading part I always used to like reading like in Finnish shoot. So I really loved reading Surrey's on. I I enjoyed the books that we read at school. And I think that was also always the more. More a night. Enjoyed more away didn't practice in speaking. Sorry, like the reading part under stories. Stuck like me to do? You. Did you go to? Yeah. Right. But Glover's unite. Many memories of going to libraries or bookstores as the kid I do remember the first one's really because we went like the finished led resistance building. Nice friendly as for millions really cool. So we used to go there. Let's when I was molded with my parents and grandparents may just like player on use the computers played some on games on stuff. So I think he was always the place be left to go to unjust. We'd have library cards on than we use could borough expire cells than I really liked Sawyer. I always enjoyed like to libraries I started going to libraries in the seventies. So there is mostly let's see books, some magazines, but not a lot of other media, like cassette tapes, even CDs videos that a lot of. Those hadn't really come into libraries yet. But you're a little bit younger than may, wink, wink. Things where you checking out. We had also the books were like we used to Berlin's, of course. But then we there was this gang place in the library. Like, you could they had this. It's a gaming Finland. It's called the moving is Siri. Finished story. So it's something that we could play on the computers than we didn't have its home at the time. So. It was fun. I think it's mostly the games on the computer than the. Via some they were CD's as the, but I didn't really like for them much, and at home was it mostly finished that was being used. Yeah. Yeah. We finished like in everyday language. Sometimes my mother would read stories in other languages, and then translate. But it was just like in the evening says stuff, so we mostly just finish move onto Mandarin Chinese. So I think we're fast for in quite a bit, right? So so far we have Finnish Swedish in English. Did you learn any other languages before starting tiller? Mandarin chinese. Yes, I did learn some German in middle school and high school. But it must vary alike. Just I have like it was very inner surface level. I think I have forgotten the most of that. But I used to go to the German listens or two years was it. A requirement for the school. No you had to pick some subject to like choose something. But it didn't have to be Germany didn't have be image. Just curiosity. Do. Remember what the choices were? It was French. I would have I have. Was ryan. We're not enough people. So I had German us the second choice invented something like under. Like making clothes. I didn't know what sow okay. Crabby knitting or a language they were considered this. Like optional choices in high school rate. Are you could like you could just any of those are than you could have would would work also right like buildings or there? You could have the the like making Ford this cooking Louis C, we had to take those. We had like a home economics class where we learn to debate mostly really unhealthy desserts. And then we hide. Yeah. Like a shop class where we played with all of the dangerous equipment. And then we had to make a. Like, a model home. Yeah. That was little I don't know. It could have been fun bit DEA was weird moment. Think what has what we had to take a language, and we only had three choices we had German Spanish, and and French. This is in high school, I was really angry awful teenager as so I took German because I thought it sounded the anger. Kigen French's to pretty I don't wanna sound pretty I wanna I wanna be like stern, and you know, it has harder sound to it. And I was attracted to that. So I took German, but I wasn't very good morning languages. I still technically or not. But I really really didn't know what to do. And so I didn't I can recognize some things now. But I never really got to the point where I could use it. Well, let's talk that Mandarin Chinese when did you decide to start learning Chinese? We went to China to high school. I I hadn't I didn't study any Chinese before end. I was graduation exemption. I didn't study anything like this is too much. Got to China and is not I was for five weeks. I didn't know if I was going to stay or go back to Finland. Like study for university instruments accents. So I learned some things through like at home and Susan acts and unlearn like basic phrases. Then after went for short time to Finland way wanted to come back to China, and I wanted to say there, but I needed the visa and I'm over eighteen so I couldn't get the semi visa from my parents. So you could get these. If you go to university program rate, a we enroll to the the university near by our home. And there was the intense program you had to take that's one so to give the visa on. It was like four or less than everyday like. Five days a week. Ice. It lasted for. The whole like semester, a nice date or one and a half years. Oh my gosh. Wait is that like five how many hours a day five hours a day was like four lessons, but it was around eight thirty to twelve GM. So it wasn't like ours. Still eight thirty two noon user. For a year and a half. Yeah. Let's back up. I to that five week program that you were in them. We'll talk about the year and a half of the. Oh my gosh. Okay. So was that what was that five? Week course like do member. What Ono sorry start with the apps first than the five weeks than the wooden half year. So before you came to China do member any of the apps that you were using to get those phrases. Like, it was actually by week time that I was saying in China. Okay. Okay. Verse learning I don't really remember the specific apps over someone with like upon bear. German something. Any it was just end in there, really like some phrase listening something like I remember trying to drill into my head like win like, I don't speak Chinese. I tried to heal over and over again, but I could use. If we go go somewhere don't know anything. It was really really basic. I learned from my parents like right and left to the day like, Texas. Some like, thank you. And goodbye end stuff like that. I really really like I didn't really pay attention is restricting. I wanted to learn. But it was really cheated and just just really really basic Mitchell. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's the apps so during the the five week you were in gonna five week. Intensive course, right? That's what I was just as staying in China for like when we came back like what moved ours. Only I was just having a day care. We have pay. Yeah. Okay. During the summertime had have all I had almost graduated from high school, but I had to go back for one like sweet exempts. That's why I I came came to China or five weeks, and I feel back to even for like among do the exam bacteria that intensive course. So the phrases you were learning. It sounds like you're just learning them to to to use them as you were going around shine Khania. Okay. We're it really reading the characters very much yet. Were you during note? I didn't learn any directors. I didn't have any. Come in. All right. So you were there for five weeks compared even just during those five weeks when you were learning those phrases, how did that compared to the other languages you had learned in the past? I think it was kind of very different because of. Like the you had to start from such a beginning level. There was no no beforehand knowledge of Chinese language or the tolls or anything really solid from the really basics. And then but the myth I was using. It was quite similar to the ones that I've been using just like hearing Verdon joint trying to learn many times, it is let's have like finding averred somewhere end than using that's untrained to kind of Iran, trusted to my parents at that time, they they knew some Chinese. So I really. Of like Kay at school. I can have fun. Okay. I guess I'd better come clean to the listeners. Dear listeners. Look mom, peer with on the another podcast. I do called exit to read lovely lovely blog posts from her first year in China. So I know your mom studied the language to before you kind of the same time. She was studying before me, she started eighteen land as she like studied, a let's and she was like immersed into studying before she was just we went to China. She was fighting buying leg stuff in Chinese than fitting. Wow. Wow. Wow. All right. So then you left and came back in you did a year and a half. Into course. All right. What what was that class lake? For example, how many people how many classes the day any of those any of that information? Yeah. It was really nice. It was we had around twenty eight students. I think like twenty two students we were through like from around the world from very different backgrounds. Some of the people were like working in China. The had a job with that. Intensive course as had learned some others were kind of funding to university course in in China. Until it was like, the age range was. From sixteen to think fifty years old. It was like Israeli really like really diverse group of people. And then when yeah, we started from very basics. We I when their Saudi learning the pronunciations and stuff, and and like tones, and we had for the first course we had two teachers verse in the morning, we had two lessons with like speaking teacher. Yep. Is mostly about learning to speak thus? Also, we had some like reading in this class than we had two lessons of writing teacher in the after a break. Just today. I. Speaking on reading, and then retooling of writing end than we had some homework to Dessel what was in the right in classes in the beginning level. Yeah, we started like, I didn't know the would actually even learn characterised. So that was related to pricing. I was kind of hoping that we in the beginning. I was kind of. Like, we didn't ask. Thought it would be very very hard. But it was fun actually. So we just had this. We we had these like practice sheets that are teaching very very like I got this like elementary school feeding Zoe would name character like many times in would really really easy ones like co and the people read and stuff Floyd was waiting wrote. That's like twenty times a day at home at that. After like a few weeks or months of these classes were you leaning towards liking more of the speaking aspect of it or the writing aspect of it. Yeah. I really think I was at the beginning. More keen about the speaking. I think it. I thought it was kind of easy the level. We were starting in. Butts. The challenge of writing characters was really cool. Like, I didn't expect it to be so fun so useful with memorizing. The words unlike that it was like it was really hard. I remember we had some students from coaches also seen our hunt hunts like Japan, South labor or did rising Irish paving like a first grade students during that yet. Really? It was a challenge in the struggle. Like it was. Really fun to learn that new Rayo writing. And then being able to actually understand some easy is essentially some texts and kind of learning the. Way. Like, you can actually understand. It went. It went looked like hundred hundred speaking the writing. So we would learn how to say something, and then also writes really gets their complementing learning both of it's really really good. Oh, I think I nearly cried the first time I could read a full sentence in Chinese. It was such a basic, Stu, and it took me minute. I could read it. And then I almost was like about to tear up. And then I realized wait what is it mean? Like, I had kind of backtracking like look at the meaning. And I got what it meant so basic, but it just seems it's such a different script, you know. So so so challenging I'm still like way super-low level. But that just feels like such a happy moment. What if you could transform your next game night into an unforgettable language learning experience? Hi, my name is Matthew Boyle, founder of language card games, and friend of Stephanie Fujio and changing scripts. I'm here today with a special offer during the month of may you can apply the coupon code changing scripts when you check out at language card games dot com to save on any of our games since twenty sixteen we have been providing innovative products to language gamers, and now we call you to join us at the table learning languages is a big deal, and we want to give you a hand. That's why we've created games for everyone. Suitable for beginning, an expert language, learners young and old. What's more? We provide free shipping to any location worldwide. So. So if you're looking for something to take your study sessions classes or game nights to the next level. This is it. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of changing scripts enjoy the rest of the show and later stopped by to see us at language card games dot com. How gamers learn languages. So he earned a half. So did you end up taking any of the K tests? When you were studying actually didn't think you'd issued how it would be really nice are like a good thing to have like I really was anxious about exempt. So I I kind of I was I was like consciously avoiding that. Which wasn't the best choice. Just like take the challenge ends like of converse zone. Boy did have lots of XM as. Caress like, they don't also. So I I don't have the level. Seeing or I did agree to those has choice. We did have over -tunities through school to do them. And yeah, many people that I think that would be really great. They're still still plenty of time. I'm should do. I've taken one two three and one and two. Were the test was a lot easier than the practice materials, and then three hit, and it was completely different creature just got exponentially harder. And I'm just be starting studying for four. I might take four next December not this December like twenty twenty. Aby. It's just a leap between the levels is just so insanely different. They probably told you this. But the ages K is like the the reading listening reading listening and writing and the ages K K is the speaking test that's actually two different tests. Yeah. Yeah. Which is really different than a lot of other language chest. But I love the characters playing with them. So I was like, oh, I continue without the stress of trying to trying to speak that for me is really really by far the hardest part of all this. When you first started studying in the intensive program. Did you think you're going to stay in it that long were you doing semester by semester deciding? Yeah. Deciding semester by semester. I didn't. I liked plans. I didn't know that. I would stay in China for so long. Know if I would stay there as all like extra weeks, but I wanted to take the more. I think the points was like after I Mr. I was related life yet. Of course, I'm going to do the second one I want to learn more these begun to. I will to want to have some performed on Dacian Dentsu tiny. I wanted to. And that I think the cert Carson, I it was like three courses, of course off. So a second course, I think I felt very much like these is the point where I kinda like I could leave, but I really want to get a better foundation, and maybe a d percents. Flu language like. No. If I still do, of course, I would learn so much more kind of gets. Yeah. Maybe a day current level of the of speaking as the. At that time. I felt like yeah. Been yet. Three three courses was recognized in. I felt like I didn't. I did have like good goal in. Its didn't have any of profession are stuff saw to come s. That was it was really as choice every hop of. Spans amazing. Let's talk about some of your study methods. I know they had they gave you homework in the class. But did you like what what kind of materials did you have like textbook serve flash cards or you still is using apps like anything that you were can you? Tell us anything that you anything everything that you're using to city language during these classes, we had books on the classes led behind the textbook on the. And we would read the chapters, and we had homework. We we most had homework about reading something. We had some sentences words that we had three in the reach at group, which was unin. But also. Like you get the feedback from straightaway. We would send a we check message of being Chinese the teacher would kind of give you feedback straight. And then we had the homework sheets on we have the whole work stuff. Like feeding instances and stuff. I think. Most relied on this. The things we had in the class because it was really like I think that class could hold up a lots of your studying. It was much is structured it had lots of it had like a very wide range of things. It was a it was really like we could rely on the teachers and the lessons. And then the of that home, I don't work, and then Wade have written his book something like about. It was I think h isky one of characters which. Which? I don't really know the main will these relate had like explaining the character's origins, and then the. Been characters yet. Yeah. Was it on the radicals like the two hitters something? Like the radicals. The smallest component of the characters by the something like a to had their corrective groups buy some clothes. Yeah. I lost a few months to that stuff. To the bookstore on Joe Lou and buying looks on like, the origins of the most one hundred common characters, I would just read about the history, and they'd have those timelines of it used to look like this. And then the character change to this to this to this. This is what it looks like now. And I was like, oh, so cool. That's not as there is really really. I mean, it's it's a complicated and challenging language, especially to read. But it's got such a long history that especially in that beginning time when I didn't know a lot. I didn't know how much I didn't know in the language. It was fun to read about it before God until they're running out of use it. Yeah. Fun. It is a slippery slippery slope. But at least two months of my life. We're gone reading. Like did you like the dictionary app? Yeah. We use that a lot that has a little bit of the history. I think in some of the. I think I think was on. I've got. I think it does. Look a word quick pick a word. Who found it? Okay. Let's see does it tell us journalists Nur's if you have the plateau feel free to follow along. No, it doesn't have it in the sun. Wait. Okay. Wait, no stroke characters yet. I guess a little bit because it breaks it down on the characters page. Quite as much of the history. Oh, that's what they need. We need to tell them that they need to like another column with the history. And then they're showing the character. Not super super fun. What part of the language that you ended up liking surprised us that you liked it so much. I love the like the he story parts of something. Like, you have the I don't remember entirely, but we had the four character view learned. What is it? The four character idioms gosh, really holy cow. We learned like to up. Not much. You would like go further certainly in the fourth course, something about linked to really surprised with with the contra behind everything. And I also really enjoyed like the way that all the chapters. We had the books. It was also I feel like I don't know. Let's about Chinese culture like outside. It was that was always the advent of like also teaching something about Chinese culture or twenty story or Chinese like wooden day culture stuff. So I really enjoy the way that you could learn to speak the language and also learned to act at the same time. In ways that could maybe be according to the culture kind of life in learning about the culture at the same time that I feel like the way that I speak in Chinese because it's so much founded on that university program. The book says it's very different than the stuff that I would normally say in Finnish. Maybe like I would finish which is like. Really, she Larry. We we don't have lots of like cool words stuff. We have I feel. It's very straightforward in a way. Yeah. Chinese idea speak in a very different way of the things that I would say of never stay may be finished. Yeah. Like, I would never maybe something that I have to say in Chinese in finished. So I really enjoyed learn learning language from England in only translating from finish what I would be interested. But also winning kind of the phrases and expressions that you can use to be liberal combing entitlement for second. There. It looked like you were thinking of examples as you were during that, can you think of an example, if something you would say in Chinese that you would never say finish. Yeah. I don't know if this is being the many Thais people even stay I don't know if that's something that people actually use. Let me see the lessons. We learned to maybe people as stuff like, oh, you're so you're so doing so well and seeing cooler stuff like. It's good and encouraging people. Really, nice example. I think that's cool that I wouldn't have it's likely without tiny taste learning the language. So we would do like on bomb to number Holland like first thing that someone has done something, really. Well, as sweetie Hulan have retard. That's not very common finish, we don't speak on people's achievements. We don't receive Gibbons confidence. I think general do is holds a really deep sense of like you say something like to someone is there like I love. You Oreo Nuys are pretty or something Israeli it has a strong storm. Meaning like, you really think that? So that's something something very different. I think is because to me is just slow country end was less many people stuff like that. So so it's more. Whereabout leg. The language also has some I don't I don't know if this clear when I early incredibly clear, I'm just laughing going gosh to admit to the Americanism. That is the elephant in the room right now. Notoriously over compliment. I've heard it formal to me too. Yeah. Thinking how just like picking out something that somebody's wearing the alike, or if they were they look relief like it's just sort of like saying Hello to us. Yeah. And especially in the classroom was the teacher for a long time consuming complementing students at on their hard work and stuff. Is very very very natural to me. But I know I know, and I've been told that a lot of cultures. Don't do that so freely all the time. All the time. But that's so nice to really liked that. I think that's also something that could be in Finland. Could learn more about these cultures that do vocalise something similar does. Well, it was nice. Yeah. I do understand like some people say that Americans. Do it too much in. So it seems like it's not met. Oh, yeah. I mean, it seems fake in person. I don't really say anything. I would I would stop myself from saying the negative, but I wouldn't necessarily say something positive to someone just to say, something I. But I understand it can come across that way. I think that that's just something that I really enjoyed through learning language. You can adopt different ways of behaving like in. You'd say something like seeing Kula like really grates. We I wouldn't be comfortable ABC insane to finish person. Right. Being able to like kind of adopts different ways of behaving. Yeah. Which was what I really might expand other languages with different scripts different scripts twenty twenty but that's not this year. That's next year. This here I want to gather as many books, I can't who are interested in language learning stories, even if we are centered only just around Mandarin Chinese, how can we do that word of mouth seems to be the scientifically proven best way to share broadcast? I kid you not look it up. So could you please? Please. Please. Please said this podcast to just one person that you think might enjoy it or. Or if you can't think of one person, could you just please screen shot it and share it in any social media that you're in Chinese podcast can be found anywhere and everywhere, the podcast can exist. So all people need is just the title changing scripts. So it quick screen shot and a love it or like it or I think you'd enjoy this with simply beat the most wonderful thing, you could do this podcast. Thank you so much for spreading the word about the changing scripts podcast and a gig out and talking about our language learning story early on this time around because we lived in China before but early on this time in the first few months, I picked up on the few words, I could hear I noticed that people were repeating them a lot even just waited way there. I noticed the repetition was there, and I started to do that a ton. Whereas if I was in the US or anywhere else that were speaking English. And I said, yes, yes. Yes. It would seem like it'd be pushy. But here it just seems like. Repeat it hadn't. I was just like don't don't say it once it three times in see what happened. I did that here people be like, oh, they just continue the conversation. I'm like it worked. Every once they'd be like waiting. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah for sure day early. Yeah. To HANA in there. If I said good good good to someone. They'd be like at home. They what's wrong with you. Why is it? So good was happening. Why don't you stay great? What's wrong with your vocabulary? Reds level of using expression. I talk about coming into an out of languages. I don't know where I got that from, but you into China, you had finished English already at your disposal when you're learning Mandarin Chinese, and you're like looking for a word to say, something what language came out first. Yeah. I think in the beginning when the cost was English. Somebody would have if you wanted to speak. That's. Do after I do find a lot of similarities in Swedish Chinese that. Probably nothing. Nothing. Probably. Actually. Are some words that are almost saying? Something like Khan. It's. It's it's it has different meanings in Swedish of they sound very similar. Yeah. I think that's enough swimmers like afterwards lay. This the beginning. I've been breaking in Swedish if like using Swedish as a customer, so so. Awkward woman there when he has fake Swedish. Not something Chinese comes out because he's has the stronger which in recent years of that. So funny when you had to fill Chinese came. Brain is amazing amazing creature where you will flash card person at all when you refers learning Chinese vocabulary like the words Honsik characters things yet. I had this like you can in China, those nice flush card things that you can ride yourself. So I do some words in the beginning. When there were fewer runs in the accepted by than down unto them that way. Yeah. That's in the very beginning. When we had Warbirds coming at indiscipline. Insert course, I didn't do that anymore. But in the first course, yet, did you make a conscious decision to stop making them more. It's just kinda didn't why did you stop? I think in the first course, it was it was money to you could feel learn most of the words were probably could learn verse in the second third course also with hard work in the front, of course, it was possible to learn the birds and giving drilling under the stuff. I felt that the changing the first person the second course was also about in the first course, we had loaned the basics. We would learn everything very carefully. The second way would Marceau that's go so deep in specific things lower chapter on more words, and Elta fusing words that you were not may be comfortable using it. Are you didn't know that? Well, but they in the. I think the flow of language in general like how much we were hearing a rating and how many birds we had getting recent. So I think that's the time. I didn't anywhere do like it would have taken more time from yourself to basic individually like learn every bird just concentrated in learning. The state letting like larger learning. Maybe more sleepless little. It would like be doing time. Are you still learning Chinese now? Well, I have not been learning. I have been listening to a couple of poed casts during the holidays, we would Chinese TV. Serious ching. What show you just one? Do know this metro regarded now coming up. I I haven't watched any yet. But I've had some recommended to me I've been using to know Vicki Rotan that sounds Japanese this blue on here. I don't know him through this one here. It has. It's free, which is my favorite part, and it has different TV shows and things from like Korea, China, Taiwan jet Japan. I've been meaning to start watching something. But every time I start I realized a little light can understand denied think back to it. How are you watching? It is it online or put costs are aligned on. Poker step than the material Gardini Knicks. I'll okay, okay. What is it about? It's nice. It's about set. Parable or goes into university in like when just life there. Yeah. My sister had I think is popular on my disturb sprints like even have invading China social introduced a set. And then Wade spent the whole day which ING with everyone in the wanted to sleep. They were will so cool. And okay. Are you watching it with or without subtitles what language the subtitles? If you would subtitles I wouldn't understand their whole. I would understand some cintas kind of able to follow some of. But didn't understand. So I have been using English. Sometimes they wasn't even like, oh shoot. Okay. Might be. But I just didn't use them. So I just. I wouldn't I didn't start studying yet. I would like to go. I can do add a university. I can like Regina 's as. We have to do which course year to I can do Chinese. I'm going to I would like to begin. Like the next semester. Sudden August, let's go back to the one and a half year intensive program. Did you ever get any on any of social media in think what is it wave o or q cure so old events this point like way, abo- or were you doing anything on Chinese social media in Chinese not much? I listen like some what we had the we took the groups at school. Yeah. Yeah. Part of the learning stuff too. Speaking Chinese there that was the first time I brought in Chinese the phone is it was most of age ide- follow some people in each. Writing chinese. I didn't you act writes in letting Chinese Iowa's built kind of conscious of of of speaking like through text into tiny. So I I didn't do a lot of that's butts. We did. Yeah. We won't NV chats used cume using this mostly I didn't use much of Chinese social media. I think I was mostly introduced to in the very like, I know that some people have been studying in Chinese. For a long time. They had like a really nice range of. Absence. But I didn't get them so much or just at the end. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a fair number of them. And it's and they're very groups from what I've heard I installed way bow and I signed up print account and that about as far as I. I would like to at some point. There's still much Komis to do. And what was it? You haven't even gotten on Uku? I have gotten on cue music. Yeah. So yeah. But that's and I know there's a few. There's a lot of video sites like really short video sites that are really popular. Now, though Doku think is one of them is that tick tock, they're I think they're connected. I think oh gosh. I don't know. I keep hearing the names of them. But I just. I don't know. I already have so much. I almost two hundred podcast in my podcast player. So I'm like, I'm a little bit. This is just the ones. I'm listening to not the ones, I'm creating. So it's about impersonate. Did you use the language that you learned a lot when you are out and about Shanghai and no judgement from me here? I barely get a sentence out. So I didn't have many Chinese beacon friends. So I didn't have like most of my initial way speaking I would love to speaks Chinese in the undead went to use inline stores, and when we used to taxi a lot of the tax was was so nice. And they went to the kind of went to to speak Chinese, and they started conversation zone is they were really let patient on. There was time. Really encouraging. Everyone was like so nice about if you were nuts if you were a speeding. Chinese but which speak something. So that's that's the most of the time that's crews issues in Chinese also like during like, we had some very nice people at the compound relieving some of the people that were working there. We would have some conversations speaking Chinese to that was mostly it. Yeah. Some some light like doing daily stuff on speaking Chinese. I would I love. That's unreal. That and also some of my friends at score. Also, let speaking English so much the we used Chinese to communicate. So that was. Sadness in motivation to practice language. I didn't make many Chinese friends in China. Now in feeling that has been really today team used to meet some Chinese people studying here, maybe have bird like have a conversation with them being. So that's where I've been I think that loss of the the times that I've used to knees like inquisitions has been more attractive China in China. It was more involved and off the very basic compensations. It's impossible to separate language and culture and place though. How would you compare Shanghai to where you're living now iron like Chung heights? I meeting in Helsinki so smaller, they're only like it's of. Base is special of nature and south earn any people in the buildings are smaller. And it's it's it's really small small play place compared to any of course, to Shanghai Lindy's small. So I really like the insurance hypoth- you could have like so many opportunities to do stuff, you could just go exit your house, go somewhere end find something fun to do. And that's something that you don't so much happen. Pointy tell people when you tell them, you know, lived in China for like year and a half orig-. Did they ask you about China? Do they ask you questions about it? I think many people don't ask me questions. I think I don't know. I listen experience like some some people do ask about the language. Many people ask about how much do speak could can you speak Chinese? Can you hear conversation in Chinese or suggest like some words, some luggage? When people ask if you can like speak, some Chinese if you can demonstrate something that something that people sometimes ask, but it's not too many questions. I think many people just ask about how do you speak? Did you get to do you get a list of questions, you know? You know? There's a really strong. I haven't been back for two years. This time we've been in China most of the time that we've been back this time, but we give in Nanjing China for the history. Buffs Nanking eight years ago. I think and when back after that we went back for graduate school end. People. Stop like say. Just can't. Where'd you come from? I just came back from China. And they just kinda like like, they didn't know what to do because it wasn't a state in the. With the next question is when you mentioned a country that I know little of. Eight years ago, and there's a lot more tension between the two countries now. Even though the the more. I'm here the more. I see the similarities between the two places, but I don't think of lot of Americans think of China like that right now. So I don't know. It's tricky. It's tricky I'm kinda hoping through the language in this podcast. It's shameless. Plug for look beyond the politics at one language will in the places in the opportunities because there's so much as you mentioned there's so much opportunity on so many levels here right now. And I think a lot of people don't see that. 'cause there's so much stuff that they get out there in the media. Okay. She'll plug over. Okay. So at the end of the interviews, I tend to ask people what questions are missing we had Lucy from six ten she asked. What languages do you dream in? Oh, your disposal. Yeah. So dream unusually. I think usually in Finnish. I do remember one nightmare that I had came back to Phelan. I think this must have be like a for my insurance exempt university of something. So while I had a dream that I done though rights store in Chinese bird while call or something like advertisement. I don't even know if that's the right word, but I had to remember vets him to dream, and I just get him. That's when I remembered seeing some like on this in there or something like that. Unless jamie. Each. How and wait to the dream where you couldn't remember that word was that in finisher in Chinese Chinese was in tight like it has Chinese in good Remo slow, but. When you were in China and enduring the program what whittling do were you still dreaming in finish? Then. Sure, I think it had some things in English and maybe something in Chinese too. But mostly finish. I don't remember release Pacific. Yeah. Wow. Used to be like ten is also alleging McRae's Iverson. I dream I dream languages. I don't know. I don't know what they are. I know that now I. I. In real life. But I am an interest the offals speaker in every single Jiangsu. I seriously I have woken up from dreams in my life and been like what language that try to keep repeating some of the words I heard and like woke over to a computer and try to find it, and I just haven't nixed success finding that wake up and go seemed like an eastern European language. I wonder what that was. Studying Spanish, I would I would have a full on where it was almost like a soap opera, the gorgeous, man. And of course, me and all this stuff was happening around, and we were talking to each other in Spanish, and I could hear part of my brain was like, what are we saying to each other? Because I didn't know what was happening. Yeah. I don't. Yeah. I think I have had something like this before to understanding actually use it in the eight. So I'm really not anybody else. And I really wonder which is this like how can that happen to my dreams and yet in real life? I can't I haven't been able to really get into language yet. Couple more questions for you. Jeremy Chang, author and playwright and possible Bollywood, although he probably hates joke by now. He asked about the ownership that people have like what language today feel they have ownership over what language is there's a lot of languages at your disposal, which language you feel is your language. That's cool visited Christian. I think. Of course, like I feel finish is very it's own a it's the the thing that I feel most myself if I speak Finnish. I don't have to just covering Shirley Surridge swing things speaking by speaking wise, I have I think I like about the foreign heard I've most used to speak in Chinese because it was so much about using language English or constable may be reading and stuff because. Most of that Chinese. I feel like I can speak comfortably on the level that I know is not much conciliators it because this cool was so much about using kind of guessing getting to do the stuff that you you like just going to the situations where you could speak slow. To be able to own the language, but I feel comfortable speaking. It's funny. I just realized I haven't asked you wear you were studying were you studying gel tongue university? The no, I was actually, I know many people coil. I was in don't want university. Okay. Okay. Okay. It has to I think it has two locations in chocolate. Right. I was one don't do moving tell me. Oh, okay. Okay. Because I still think any Beckham ahead. I wanna do a one month intensive at some point maybe two months because I want like a little more of a push at some point. And that's really cool. Wow. Great Irish recall into tiny across men who wrote the book misunderstood about t- CK's asked. How did you learn emotional anguish like had a communicate your feelings in any except your first language? It was most disfigured. Will. Yeah. I think it was about. Expressing like in English Swedish to we. We were using the language of school. Like, it was the main which. Zoe would have seeks stuff that we were doing our cell like we had to express things than they would say something that no this nut the way that you can save sway. The way I think that that's really hard. I think I still do struggle bets. And because this on that you can like communicates. Known verbally maybe through through expressions as the might defer in different cultural socio in the Mitchell still do struggle expressing sign languages. I also full into this finish pursue thing. Because we I think as the culture our nets is not a very expression expressing language. Soltys in if I'm speaking English or Chinese. That I have fallen into this like I had be nice. I haven't communicated to end any minds the so this really good question. I think that's something. I have a still do sometimes. Kind of expressing stuff also outwards just the just finger suspended. Nice. Just can. Especially when you're learning languages in a classroom. There isn't a lotta time usually spent on talking about your emotions in that language. How do you learn that so future to mention that you want to to take a course at your current university in Chinese do you want to add any other languages on any other point? You've got quite a bit or any. Yeah. I would really like to study some French. I've been studying in this wig page hit something men rice or. So I've been doing IB learning like some fringe, Odin Alexa, speak to. Yeah. I would love to do maybe like sometime in other country. Also, learn another which. Nearly two and also may be some exchanging China to confirm my vocabulary in like engineering, come very my Eckerd like related to my studies. So I could use it that would really along the really nice. It would be so easy for you to find a language exchange partner, you'd have to interview them to make sure that the rival in. But you. They'd be falling over to your language exchange partner. Please accept to. Oregon. Okay. One more from von who has been being a Chinese for five years in Los Angeles with all the technology being developed with languages do. If there was the chips that we could put in with a new language just Flint, and you could speak it fluently. Would you want to do that? Or would you want to go through the process of learning the language or I would really like to go through the process? I think that's so nice colored. Like, I love the. The. Things that you have to kinda I think it's really good to go to the process. Find out all the coolest things while ago, kind of find stuff find somebody before and been you just new girls are opening at the same time. So I that's cool. I would I would like to of course, like indigestion base. Oh, nice to just be able to communicate and have the ability to like express yourself in the foreign language when they're leading. I wouldn't give up the process. It's. Do you know nobody yet has said they just want the chip not one person. Closys that we've gotten to say, yes, I want the chip because I've said, well, I guess the information in the culture in the ability to pick from that the maybe, but I want to choose the words that I'm using not just coming out. And I want that cultural bit detached to it. Yeah. There's something about the process. On. The as the bar to evidence. Well, it's now your turn wit question. Do you want to add to this list? Then. I would like to ask with of struggles have overcome with learning a new language like maybe what has been the kind of things that he had to push yourself to do when you're learning for example. Like is it were nervous speak, the language rain to rights, and how can you answer your question? I think that. Yeah. I have just will the heart writing was really difficult. I like the the whole. Learning a different way to rights and fitting like you've already know how to rights on your ready knowhow to retests heads from the very beginning. It was very hard was really really reporting time. Also, I think the speaking are just like being being hunted. Courage to started crustacean as bake even though you have your cheer about a few hot. I think this was something at the school of Chinese. We just like okay come into the front. A south thing have dialogue or have compensation of. Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely, positively wonderful. Thank really nice. I'm so happy to have this conversation.

China Finland Shanghai Stephanie Fujio Asia Mitchell Zoe Phelan Japan Wade YouTube Steph Puccio EPA lotta McGinn Fleck Clark Rhonda
February 9, 2020: How Fox talk shows urged Trump to purge; inside a 'billion dollar disinformation campaign;' getting info from Chinese cities on Coronavirus lockdown

Reliable Sources with Brian Stelter

42:57 min | 1 year ago

February 9, 2020: How Fox talk shows urged Trump to purge; inside a 'billion dollar disinformation campaign;' getting info from Chinese cities on Coronavirus lockdown

"Welcome to reliable sources. I'm Brian stelter. This is our weekly look at the story behind the story. We're talking this hour about the fallout from the Senate impeachment trial. I'll discuss the fox. Fear Factor Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown plus if you thought collection misinformation was bad in two thousand sixteen. Take a look around. It is worse worse this year. The Atlantis McKay coppins is here with his disturbing new reporting about that and later something I've been wondering for a couple of weeks. Now how do you cover an outbreak when we are all locked out of the epicenter. Reporters China getting information about the coronavirus C. N. N.'s. David Calvert is GonNa join us live from Beijing with the behind the scenes. Look the the first. The word of the week could be of indicative knits. It could be revenge. Trump world is taking revenge through the media and also on the media victory in the Senate impeachment. Trial wasn't enough for the president or is right wing media allies they are now on a search and destroy mission. The administration is pershing key players who testified about the Ukraine scheme and pro-trump outlets are lambasting Mitt Romney for daring to break ranks declare trump guilty. I turn on Fox on Wednesday night expecting an absolute celebration but instead the primetime hosts were all hitting the anger button over and over again raging against Romney and denouncing. Nancy Pelosi for turn up copy of the State of the Union speech. They were angry they were bitter hitter. They were outraged and Collins been going on all week long. It's been led by the president. Now that been dictated vulgar speech he gave and it's continued on TV Judas. Brutus Benedict Arnold Selfish preening. Self centered sanctimonious. You're an embarrassment. Petulant noxious angry bitter mumbling bumbling sore loser Arina stooping to pitiful pathetic. It really are stupid. Okay judges in the in the name calling has also continued on twitter. I just want to show you what's different these days. If you feel that the president is sharing so much more content on social media than it used to. You're absolutely right. Twenty seventeen twenty eighteen twenty thousand nine. He was posting about seven eight times a day. Look at just for the past. It's eight days since the start of the month of February. In twenty twenty three hundred and thirty three tweets and retweets compared to forty two or fifty four in prior years. Now this is just eight eight days. A slice of the wintertime and the number tweets are off the charts. Mostly these tweets. Most of these are angry re tweets of his supporters and its fans and family members. And actually see this number is out of date because I think he's tweeted twenty times Since we made the graphic this morning look fear and anger or the organizing principles but but not just on the right yes in right the media. It's all about Romney and Pelosi and Adam Schiff and the terrible media on the left the anger and the fear is about trump because partisan media incentives artists stoke anger and stoke fear. Sure it's about resentment of enemies as opposed to embracing joy and celebrating good news and and talking about winning. It seems anger is a key part of the business model. And that's we've I've seen I think all week long focus on the negative is on the other side rather than on the positives of your side but it's not just trump world attacking politicians attacking the media. There's also I think they get attempt a little bit of getting revenge at the media itself. This headline came before the announcement before the vote in the Senate the White House excluded CNN from the annual annual pre state of the Union. Lunch the White House usually organizes for the president and the major news anchors this has been going on for decades. CNN's Wolf Blitzer have been going to this lunch for twenty years. It's an off the record event although something's usually leak and did this year but it was notable that. CNN was singled out and excluded from the lunch. There's also a bit of news out of Iowa involving exclusion exclusion. The the trump campaign turned away a Bloomberg News reporter from an event in Iowa. This is because the campaign said the Bloomberg reporters would not be allowed in because Mike Bloomberg Burke who owns Bloomberg News is running for President and because the news division's made some awkward decisions about how to handle that so two examples of excluding members of the media a big difference difference from what we saw in the United Kingdom this week where reporters Decided to boycott a plan briefing. There was going to be taking place with the Prime Minister's office because some news outlets let's were not allowed inside so the point is there was a show of solidarity in the UK. We're not seeing shows solidarity here in the US. Let's talk about that and a whole lot more with our panel. WHO's here to start the hour with us today Bill Carter's here's the veteran New York Times media reporter now a CNN media analyst Teradata Dallas. Here's a media and business consultant and Sarah former trump trump. DOJ spokesperson now a CNN analyst staff writer at the dispatch got all those titles in bill reaction to this this kind of campaign of revenge inge because I turned on Janine Perreault show last night and again. She was spitting mad about Mitt Romney instead of talking about the president's success. No it's look. It's all about emotion emotion and how they can play with it and look. They are aggrieved about everything. That's that's been successful for trump. He hits a nerve with his base. They're angry about being outside outside the mainstream culture in that way and they wanna hit back all the time and also Romney's did something that really gets to them He. He voted on his conscience. Can you imagine he actually st decided he couldn't just be in lockstep. That really is scary to them because if more people start asserting that then the president could actually be in trouble. Here's what Fox's Chris. Wallace said to Mitt Romney in one of the many interviews around me set up ahead of time. This was pretty impressive. How he gave all these interviews to explain himself an embargo them? You realize is this is war. Donald Trump will never forgive you for this. That's true Ross is right about that and Sarah. Isn't that the same calculation occupation that countless right wing media figures and Rubican politicians have all been making for the past three years about knowing if you turn against the president. He will never forgive you when he will go to war. Well right and Mitt. Romney's case voted with the president eighty percent of the time more than Mike Lee more than some other senators That wasn't enough clearly. Now on the flip side Fox News is a business. Business and impeachment has been good business for Fox News. Hannity's ratings on the first night of the impeachment topped four million that night. So don't forget that this is more than journalism it's for profit and that's been going very well for them. Yeah here's the business model and I was trying to make clear in the intro. That is also true on the left. I mean that is the idea behind Dan. Liberal News shows and things like that as well Tara. What did you make of the reactions to Romney Treatment Rami from right wing media? It is exactly what I expected it to be. I mean part of it to your. The point is in fact strategy. Right part of it is that fear and anger drive the base that drives the operation to get out the votes on behalf of the Republican Party. But but at the same time. Let's be clear. Trump legitimately angry like he is angry about this. He has been angry from the moment. He took office when he started out by saying. That Mexicans are rapists this his whole campaign his whole presidency. It's been about his anger and his him going after people to add the manifestation of that anger so so I think that it is a two part equation here for the media though. I think it's one hundred percent about driving this narrative that the Republican Party Republican publican voters are victims and trump is the hero. That's fighting back on their behalf. And that's That's what drives ratings for them and that also again that's interplay between ratings and get out the vote and that's what we're saying and And it's it's. It's really troubling thirty five times in the last hour. So it's eleven oh seven eastern and since two thousand five times in an hour mostly re tweets but this is all part of. It's all connected right builds all connected because it's amplifying his supporters on Fox and you supporters in gop and then kind of weave echo chamber. We've never seen anything like this. Let's face we constantly say that we constantly say we're in uncharted waters orders right but we're in dangerous waters this when when you have media being excluded. It's just the beginning he. He's going to continue that mean exclude. CNN and the rest to the media goes along with it he excludes NPR. He's going to exclude people. He doesn't want Boomberg may be able to make a case for that but why couldn't a Democrat make the case for Fox. It's a business model as you said. Fox in the business of being pro-trump why wouldn't a Democratic candidates GonNa put you on. I mean to your point about it being unprecedented. I'm not totally sure. That's that's true every president since Reagan and beyond his tried to go around the media go. Your social media has paid that so much easier and during the Obama Administration. Absolutely Fox snooze. Didn't get interviews things like that. What I see is more of a continuation of a trend that we've seen staying with state of the Union being sort of the reality? TV version. Of what Reagan tended to have guests in the audience for steroids. Though it's like every administration does President Obama sat down were Bret. Baier was a very contentious injury. Br Bear was very aggressive with President Obama. I would say disrespectful of President Obama I think in terms of the democratic basis someone whose works in the party. I can tell you that hope is actually a big part. That's what got Obama elected so the party. The Democratic Party writ large is less less responsive responsive to to fear anger. Not to say that that doesn't exist obviously within the party but certainly the hope in wanting a big bold vision is something that drives the Democratic Party. More that's why you see. All the presidential candidates offering big visions writing because that's what the The base of the Party response to only one candidate has been operation. Oh No people the Judge Bernie Sanders That's more than one handed and then also Fox several of them all of the different Democratic events that the town halls and various things have been held by the candidate. What about this isn't excludes? CNN from this free lunch. Do you think it mattered. Sir I think that access journalism has mattered so much less than this administration astray Shin some of the best journalism we've seen covering the trump administration has not been because they've had access to it. It's in fact if anything bend the opposite. It's given that distance. I think that has been and missing sometimes in journalism coverage in the past where you're watching from the outside. You're more likely to see things and so again. I think you can find great great pieces of journalism that we're not based on interviews with the president or even with his top advisors be shows of solidarity built. There'd be one that works. I got away from something I think they should be. I I think if you'RE GONNA if you're gonNA cover this very uncharacteristic president who will only continue. You'll be excluded ex time. You can't you know they say a they'll come for you later and this time and they'll come for someone else later because someone offended him in some other way. I think they have to make the. The media is under incredible edible pressure right now they have to stand up to this guy and yet the objective they have to do it. He's not being accountable anywhere else. Who the Republican Senate was not going to make a cannibal? He doesn't do any kind of press briefings with his press. She doesn't really have a job. There's no you call her. She's on Fox walks on Hannity on Hannity show on Friday. She claimed named that she was turned down by some networks. That she wants to be on air is willing to be on. Average has been turned down. Do you believe that for the record. We did reach out. We put it on a request again this this weekend. She still doesn't respond. Tapper tried to book for State of the Union xactly was not available. She's lying or misinformed or if it's strategic or not I don't I don't know what Oh to make of it but just to be clear limitations stance I would say this. In terms of the trump administration the media still struggled struggled with how to cover the trump administration. And I'm just going to be very direct. In most instances we start and we give people the benefit of the doubt but with the trump administration. There've been over fifteen thousand lives from the president himself so I think you have to start with back checking the president's start from the assumption that what the president is saying is untrue because history has borne out that to be the case. He's re tweeted four times since we started talk. Let's see how many more times the President tweets before noon eastern to the panel standby lots more quick break here though and here's a Democratic senator. Who is involved in the trial? His is impressions of what went down. And why we'll hear from Sarah Brown just a moment. Everyone Barbara McDonald here hosted the brand new podcast from h eleven down the hill. The Delphi murders in February of two thousand seventeen Abigail Williams and liberty. German went for for a hike on a warm day in Delphi. Indiana and vanished nearly twenty four hours later. Their bodies are found in the woods. Police began Dan working a crime scene. They say they'll never unseat. They soon find libby cell phone which has video and audio of the killer. Three years later remains on the loose search for down the hill. The Delphi murders. There's wherever you're listening now. A steam room. Everybody Ernie Johnson and Charles Barkley we own a role right now. Is this a chance to blow off. Steam yes I can't brag about our show that just make you an apple. Subscribe and download the steam room on your favorite podcast APP. Every Thursday subscribe. Hey welcome back to reliable sources and Brian stelter. Do you remember the show fear factor. Let's talk about the Fox. Fear factor after all throughout the impeachment hearings and trial. We said there was a Fox. Firewall was stars. Like Sean Hannity. Pressuring Republican senators not to stray from the White House. Line of course the lawmakers that were involved rarely admitted to feeling that pressure or feeling that fear but Democratic Senator Sherrod Brown says it was very real he wrote an op Ed for the New York Times recently describing what he says his colleagues across the aisle were saying in private and Senator Brown joins me now this public versus private persona. So you're saying that in private some of your colleagues on the Republican side of the aisle did admit to feeling fear and that's a motivated their decision to acquit. Well they know no politician will ever say they're fearful of we all think we're probably more courageous. We all probably think we're more courageous than we are. But I I saw it in their eyes. I saw it in their excuses. I hear hear what they say about the president's countless numbers of lies I hear what they say about the president his behavior his demeanor is character. I heard what they set about Ukraine and both the phone call and well the phone call leading up to the phone call on the cover up afterwards. I I said same fear that I saw my colleagues in the last month month through the trump presidency particularly last month reminded me of the fear I saw when I voted against the Iraq war as a member of the House almost twenty years ago the fear I saw. Aw from so many of my colleagues that were intimidated and fear by fearful of Bush. They were they were afraid of being called un-american or being called soft on terrorism or whatever so it's nothing new but it's worse now and it's it's too often in the Senate fear does the business as you know people used to say that if Watergate happened and Nixon had Fox that he would have stayed in office. Then that's what we all just experienced Nixon. Fox I I think that I've heard that assessment before I you know I it really is. It's all the above. It's it's it's a fear of of trump tweeting about them and calling them a name that sticks especially among the right wing base. It's it's fear of Fox. It's fear of talk radio. It's fear even of the president in an especially I should say of the president coming into their state and in came campaigning against them. But but you know the this all this all speaks to why Mitch McConnell did what he did as you know most of us most of us in politics even many Republicans don't think of you all his enemies of the people. It's just a foreign concept to US but Mitch. McConnell McConnell wanted this impeachment to get done his the trial as quickly as possible with as little attention as possible there were they turned off some of the cameras and the Senate Chamber usually got much more expansive view the chamber than you did during this trial and back. Now when we're in regular session he restricted where reporters could go so as you know Brian when when House and Senate members walk around the Capital Committee hearings are to the floor and offices whatever reporters come up to us all the time. They have free access to do that. McConnell sort of wrote them off like cattle and sort of pre selected areas so this is not this false equivalency a couple of one one person in your panel talked about before that well presidents have always done this well. We've never seen this where they had excluded journalist today. We've never seen it were. They excluded journalists. That we have not seen that presidents always were mad at the reporters. I get that but there was never this. Concerted effort like there is with McConnell the trump that in nearly a peep out of Senate Republicans who have Who who sneak out after the votes walkout as quickly as they can and and and try to talk to nobody to defend what they're doing and notice the almost there's almost no Republican senators on television? This weekend almost nobody from the White House on television this weekend. Perhaps I wanted to defend the decision to acquit and did not seek additional evidence But well let's let's talk about Nixon thought about the Clinton acquittal after Clinton's pins acquitted in the Senate in the ninety S. There was no media machine call in the people that voted for him guilty phonies and Judas. It is incredible radical to hear the venom directed Mitt Romney right now from right wing media and I know he expected it. I know but how do you think it's going to change the Senate now that we're seeing these ads. These attack television shows. That's a good question my Khania night the night before the impeachment of the night of the state of the Union. We're out. I was showing them my my desk in the Senate floor desk eight as you know I. I wrote a book about and I was Connie and my guests from the state of the Union Dave Green the UAW president Eh Lordstown plant at GM shutdown in the president simply didn't help us fight back. We were out on the Senate floor and a group of us with Tina Smith and the mayor of Duluth Mayor Larsen and came up with the Governor of Utah. His guests for the state of the Union and he of course wasn't going to tell us what he was thinking for the next day. But I just said to him Um you have more integrity than than most people in this place and more than virtually all Republicans. And I'm hopefully. He'll do the right thing and of course he didn't didn't tell us anything but he knew he knew this onslaught would happen he. He's very familiar with the right wing. Dais and he's very familiar with the politics they play and he's pretty intimately undersea. Gee Pretty intimately understands what trump does so this is the way trump went after him the trump and the right wing media the way that they've gone after trump making king excuse making making fun of accent a man who had served in the military and served this country so very very well with no bladder and his record at all it it it creases that fear in that tension because all Republicans know that they you know there's a there's a Russian proverb that the the plate of grass that grows up the highest gets its head cut off I and that's every single Republican. They may not know the Russian proverb because they they they like the Russians more than they used to but they may not. I don't know the proper but they. They certainly know what could happen to them. And that's what's that's what's so sad about our system right now. The quote from vitamins attorney was remarkable. The David Pressman said if we allow truthful voices to be silenced. If we ignore their warnings eventually there will be no one left to warn us. I can't say it better than that. Senator Brown. Thank you for being here and the book you mentioned his desk. Eighty eight eight progresses senators. Who Changed America up next reliable sources they shredding moment? That definitely got too much attention. We're GonNa talk about what was covered. What was not covered from the state of the Union address in just a moment and all star weekend laws into the windy city we already a rising stars State Farm L. Star Saturday night and the NBA All Star game presented by Kia you twenty twenty February fourteenth to sixteenth on TNT? The wait is over coming to H.. L. Ed all new new episodes of forensic files follow the evidence and crack the case forensic files to from your Sunday February twenty third at ten only on H. each alleged. Let's talk about President Trump Nancy Pelosi and the news. Media's judgment calls. How much attention did this paper tear seen around the world really deserve? Look Pelosi took a page. Right out of trump's playbook move was aggressive and divisive. It was a battle in the memoirs but caring hearing about the tearing that was a choice made by news outlets so I'm chose to obsess over it others not so much. Let's compare the coverage of the tearing to this. This fat check from the Philadelphia Inquirer Inquirer found that the Philadelphia fourth grader who trump singled out to receive a scholarship to promote the idea of school. Choice he was talking about failing government schools. Well actually she doesn't attend a failing government school she already attends one of the city's most sought after charter schools. That's the kind of fact. Check that frankly. I think needs to be much more a front and center and props for the Phillies acquirer. been making the calls and finding out a bring my panel back now teradata. Del Bill Carter. Sarah Iskar Nancy. Pelosi said the reason for tearing up the pages was trump was shutting the truth there. Were clearly some facts that were conducted in the immediate aftermath of the speech by CNN and others but then this enquirer story comes out on Saturday. A terror. And I'm thinking to myself there's even more in the speech that was wrong that we didn't even know about And it just makes me think about the judgment calls news outlets make about how much attention to give different moments of the speech. Trump was reading the truth. But I wanNA say something about local media thank goodness for our local media because they're doing an an incredible job across this country while they're under duress in terms of their economic model and much of the massive layoffs across the country entry for local media. But they're actually on the ground and communities they're actually back checking things like this when the impacts their local areas and so this is another reason. Soliloquy here another reason to support our local media but I will say this in this in trump state of the union. The focus should be on what he said and whether or not it was accurate and as I said earlier you're in the show. We have to start with the premise. That trump is lying because it is borne out over and over again he also said that the US became a top energy producer. ADDUCTOR under him. That's factually incorrect. That happened in twenty twelve under President Obama. I could go on and on and on and so we do need to be focusing on policy policy. Because that's what impacts people's lives and that's what should be the focus of fact checking an reporting. So how do you grapple with this. You Serve Jeff sessions in the Justice Department as the top. Spokesperson Looks Person You you conservative writer and podcast or how do you wrestle with. The misinformation comes from the president. Why think on the speech thing? What makes it interesting to me is that it is so much easier for journalists to cover Nancy Pelosi ripping his speech? Because you don't have to have an economics degree don't have to have a background in whatever the topic was from the state the union and so every journalist can touch on that and we've seen that over and over again Campaign coverage for instance where. It's much easier to get reporters to write about something being easy like a poll that came out or horse race and much harder to get coverage on something where you have to have some background and some research and that's I think a very unfortunate direction that journalism analysts has headed. And I think the Nancy Pelosi speech ripping incident is the best example. We've seen recently of what she did was a theatrical gesture. She was doing something theatrical on camera as a distraction etc but what they did with the with. This young black girl was a theatrical gesture that is not actually the facts. She was cast passed in what he wanted to put out as one of his messages she was literally picked and casts and they messed that up then even find a right they could found they could probably found somebody that fit the bill but she wasn't one she'd already gone into a public school. That's a perfectly good school so it was. It was not to be taken seriously. Neither of those things should had been taken seriously because he was doing a fraud and she was just doing a theatrical thing. It wasn't something to make again deal out of Fox and friends and they're still talking about Portsea tearing the paper gift but this this young girl was used as a prop her and her family and many of the black people that were on display that Throughout the state of the Union were used as props and it was really insulting. And what I find interesting is that Democrats are often accused of engaging in identity politics and that's being made into a pejorative when the Republican Publican party has Trump is using black people as props throughout the state of the Union and also we found out that people are being paid as As part of a political campaign campaign strategy that black people were being paid and so all of the things that have been the Democratic Party has been accused of. We're seeing the Republican party that obviously engaging in projection election because they're doing the exact same thing that they're accusing Democrats of doing and so I think that's a particularly troubling at a time when we should be working to unite the country that we're seeing in this type of behavior. Is Anybody on the country. Anybody really I don't see a look. There's also controversy about rush. Limbaugh receiving the medal of freedom at the state of the Union Russia announced on on Monday has been diagnosed with advanced stage lung cancer. And I know some people don't think he should have been getting this metal but Sarah some of the comments I'm seeing social media from lefties. Who hate rush saying they hope that the cancer takes them takes them away as fast as possible? It's revolting to me and I just you know as much as we talk about trump and misinformation Asian. There is a strain of of contempt on the left. That also worries me. Why can't people will just say? We hope that rush gets better quickly. And I think this highlights the larger problem with twitter and what we elevate on twitter and who's on the voice when candidates journalists often find signed. We're all on twitter. Frankly all the time. Let's be honest but we think of that as some type of reality when in fact it's not We don't know who some of those those people are. They're not checked by rhetoric rushing through be paid so then candidates respond to that because reporters respond bond to it and a lot of I think the Democratic candidates have fallen into that trap of living in a twitter verse that is not actually representative in the country and then and the facts are still coming Out on this so I don't want to jump too far over what happened. But you have a van drive into a Republican voter drive Registration drive in Florida. Which is a very scary thing and thankfully the suspect has been arrested automatic? And that's good news and we don't know really what the motivation was. I just think we should be able to say about rush. Limbaugh rush limbaugh. We hope to get better soon. And then people can and argue over whether he's right or a lot of people did too that a lot of people say look we hope the man is does not have a serious outcome from this and then they say but listen giving him the medal of honor when he said all these absolutely outrageous and racial things it's questionable behavior especially the doing at a at a state of the Union address. You can do both things I I do think there's an interesting standard though. If Hillary Clinton announced tomorrow that she had terminal cancer. D- don't you think the same thing would happen on the right that they'd say we wish he was dead or whatever which is horrible. Nobody should do that ever to any human being. That's the point you should separate the guy's a human being. He's going through hell. That's bad for him. You can then say giving guy. The Medal of honor is really questionable. I think he can do both things. Do both the same thought a a little bit with the Kobe. Bryant death also Washington Post reporter came out what some saw as too quickly to talk about the rape allegations against him And again that was sort of the twitter her I think twitter verse culture. They've built where it's sort of like say whatever you're thinking that you would have said to a friend who was sitting next to you. Have the guilt of course Yes and there's been these threats against Gayle King this week reprehensible or so. I think we can all agree on all of this. All right the panel. Thank you very much Let's go to Washington in a moment and McKay coppins. This is incredible news story for the Atlantic. It's called the twenty twenty disinformation war here. His brand new reporting in just time David axelrod host the X.. Files brought to you by CNN. And the University of Chicago's Institute of Politics Politics each week on the show. I sit down with some of the most intriguing figures in politics and beyond. I hope you'll tune in to hear my upcoming conversation with Judd Appeti- the filmmaker in comic genius. Jedinak not only talked about his great success but the personal toll it took to achieve it. You can find this episode and more at CNN dot com slash Asks files or wherever you get your podcast hey there poppy harlow the host of CNN's boss files podcast cast. Are you hungry. Have you ever had shake shack or latest. Episode is with the men behind the Burger business. Founder Danny Meyer and CEO Randy. Garate shake shack was born. If you didn't know as a hotdog cart in two thousand one and the whole thing actually started. Danny Meyer says by accident so we dive into that. What's the story behind? What is now a publicly traded company? And what are they trying to do when it comes to equality and wages ages and their experiment with four day workweeks also. Are they planning to offer plant based items on the menu. That is a big question. Also some of their favorite memories like when President Obama came to eat checkup offs files subscribed today now to the billion dollar disinformation campaign to re elect the president. That's the title of this must must read by McKay coppins a staff writer for the Atlantic. It's up on the Atlantic Dot Com. He examined how trump is storming social media especially facebook with these micro targeted ads. There are dozens of them swarms of eerily similar ads on facebook AD library. They're all meant for different. Slivers of the electorate trump's own feed is also flooded with propagandistic posts as as we see in two thousand nineteen data. The trump campaign put out more than double the number of facebook ads of any other democratic contender. Look far ahead. The trump campaign is. Here's more about that is McKay coppins. McKay what surprised you most in your reporting you know. While I was reporting this piece I actually created a fake facebook account That kind of designed designed to immerse myself in this pro-trump propaganda it was during the impeachment proceedings. And I guess what what surprised me most was the effected hat on me. Frankly you know I. It assumed going into this little exercise that my kind of media literacy and Inherent Skepticism would inoculate me against the distortions that the trump from campaign was pumping out. But I actually found myself almost being taken in by them more than once. You know there were days where I would watch an impeachment hearing on TV. Come Away with my own conclusions that you know. The testimony was pretty damning about the president's conduct. And then later I would. I would turn to this facebook feed and see with these kind of slick super cuts that the campaign had produced recasting. What had happened that day in totally different terms I in fact making it look as if something else that happened entirely and I found myself questioning what I had seen with my own? Two eyes I I would be like. Oh is that what happened. And so in this kind of heightened suspicion bishen cynicism. I found myself questioning almost everything that I saw. You know. Every headline I saw I was reflexively suspicious of it and and frankly pretty alarmed and how do you think this is related to the ongoing attacks. So he's even the president's allies against the media because you write in your piece let me put it up on screen you say instead of trying to reform the press by pointing out bias to make things better or critiques coverage. Today's most influential conservatives went to destroy the mainstream media altogether. That's very strong. I think it's accurate. But that's very strong. How how do you make that case? Look I mean this is a lesson that we've seen over and and over again if you look at Fox News at Breitbart at some of the loudest voices in the conservative media. They are not calling for more balance in the mainstream media. In fact I quote Matthew Boyle an editor at Breitbart News. Who gave a speech at the Heritage Foundation? Saying literally that there's no such thing as journalistic integrity anymore and everything is about weaponization of information. And that's how Breitbart performs its task. That's how a lot of conservative media is operating braiding. Now what about local news also point out. The local news is a new front in these campaign attempts warfare. There's all these local news upsets that look like they are your hometown paper or your local TV station. But they are not yeah. There've been a lot of questions about these over the last couple of years. These kind of faux local news sites like within oculus names like the Kalamazoo Times or whatever and if you look closely you can see that there are often no bylines on the stories. There's no local address for their offices There there's no mastheads And a lot of them are run by kind of Republican lobbying groups or These third party companies and what I was was told by one political strategist. Is that something that the way that. They're often utilized that a candidate who wants to place a desired headline about Democratic opponent. For example people can actually go through a third party and And have their their desired headlines placed in these websites and then and then those headlines appearing campaign commercials shows are fundraising please and and the average reader would have no idea that these sites are not actual Normal local news sites that they have a political agenda. But that's what actually makes them useful people. These are all examples of this alternative media. Universe that's being built Let me just leave something that that I saw in Time magazine recently. When I read your piece it reminded me exactly of what this voted? Trump voter said to Time magazine. So I don't have to watch Fox or CNN or Read Time magazine or anything else. I will get information from my facebook feed and then he went on to say you know the campaigns on a good job above telling us what the news is in case. We don't see it on Fox. The campaign is not reporting the news. A lot of voters think that campaigns do. That's exactly actly right. In fact there are polls that show that among strong trump supporters. Almost none of them actually trust the mainstream media but more than ninety percent say that they turned to the president himself for credible information that makes the task of holding the president accountable almost impossible and that's a very dangerous dynamic as we head into the twenty twenty but we have to understand how that works and why that's happening As we head into the primaries McKay thank you so much for being here Real story on the Atlantic Dot Com. Coming up we're looking looking at the New Hampshire primary and looking back toward the Iowa caucuses poor John King with no data to fill up his magic wall. We're GONNA go live to New Hampshire next Libyan nosy Z.. WHO's been visiting campaign events? They're gonNA talk with her about learning from voters and what they think of the press next and with a no-holds-barred election right around the corner. Take a look back at some of the most hard-fought presidential races throughout history the CNN original series race for the White House is back for a brand new season starting Sunday February sixteenth at nine on CNN making on CNN presents. The story of the world's most famous royal family but windsors inside the Royal Dynasty. Premiers Sunday February sixteenth at ten on CNN. Well at least the Iowa caucus has set the bar very low. For the New Hampshire primaries reporters are now are following candidates all across the snowy state. So let's go there to Lizzie. The Washington correspondent of New York. Magazine is in Hampshire at an event as we speak. The impact of the Iowa caucuses all the conspiracy theories that we've seen in the result of the debacle in Iowa then that causes an erosion of trust in the media as well it. Does I think for people who are already inclined to be skeptical about the media it does contribute to erosion of trust when you talk to Andrew Young supporters or Tulsi Gabbard supporters. The people who are already dissatisfied felt like their candidates were not getting a fair shake. They certainly talk about that. They think that the media is part of a conspiracy. includes for the Democratic Democrat Party in Iowa or nationally And they are already inclined to feel that way when you're at a more establishment candidates events. There's much less of that contributes to the sense of cynicism and we know there's lots of cynicism on the right with trump supporters. But there's a Lotta cynicism on the left as well and these are not what These are not low information voters who come up with these conspiracy theories in some cases Lydia. They're really high information voters. They think they know so much. They have so many details. That's part of the issue. Isn't it great. Well I think our definition of a low information voter maybe needs to be adapted for the digital age even trump supporters They they are not low information voters. They're consuming a lot of information. It's just the quality of the information is not high and so you see that on the left to fit with more of the fringe candidates and their supporters. But you also see that certainly on the right I mean the day of the Iowa Caucus there was a trump campaign press conference in which the campaign was clearly seeking erode trust in the media in the party establishments and Brad Carson even suggested that Donald Trump's twenty sixteen Iowa caucus result where he lost Ted Cruz. It was the result of some kind of fraud So I think you kind of have actors on both sides certainly more on the right Trying to Provoke supporters as you may be reading are inclined to feel the establishment and the media is somehow out for their candidate or out for their cause. And it'll be in thirty seconds. What's is your biggest critique of how we all cover these primaries it's hard to say because it is sort of like a sporting event we're following incremental developments developments since the twenty four hour news cycle But I think the less that we can focus on it and treat it like. It's a game better but it's hard to do that in the moment. When you're I'm trying to just report the information that's inhabit? It's sort of like a play by play kind of feel to it when when we are doing that but I don't really know what the solution is so hard problem I love you. Thank you so much. That Biden looks interesting and a quick note about the candidate. WHO's not on the Boundary Hampshire? Michael Bloomberg is polling. Quite well. Isn't number the number three number four Fordham on the pole. And I think it's partly all of this. Look at this brand new data showing campaign AD spending by Michael Bloomberg the top Tom Style and then everybody else so much. Lower down that list Bloomberg already with three hundred fifty million dollars in AD spending just an incredible number and I think frankly shows the power of television advertising That he's starting to do well in the polls coming up here in reliable sources reading to China to talk about how reporters are covering the spread of the corona virus outbreak. How are we know how we we find out what's happening at the epicenter when these cities are locked down David Culver has answers from Beijing in just a moment Once upon a time this was the news the earth is flat devil. Israel has everything that we know exactly Daniel Wreck with steep steep semi Dark Ages. Miracle Workers Anthropology Suzy's ten thirty nine thirty central on. TBS as the corner virus continues to spread. Spread leading. The entire city is on lockdown millions under quarantine in China. I WANNA know how reporters getting accurate information from the epicenter. CNN correspondent David Culver and his team team. We're in Wuhan then. When they returned to Beijing they were on a two week quarantine? You can see them. They're set up in her hotel room where they stayed for two weeks until they were confident that they did not Could contract the virus. Now they are still in Beijing continuing their reporting and David Culver is joining me now from the city. So David how do we find out. What's what's going on in Wuhan daily basis? How do you get information from the epicenter of this operate what? Brian originated genet. Bit and why we went to one of the first place and a lot of folks said why would you go there. You go to the epicenter. Well the reality is we needed to be on the ground to make those contacts even for those twenty nine hours so so then we could see for ourselves who we would be talking to who we'd be dealing with and even as we left prior to the lockdown we came back to Beijing and in the midst of that quarantine that you mentioned my team and I were making phone calls with people we connected with they would then connect us with others. It's trust is currency here and that's the reality with this type of story and so we were relying heavily on we chat which essentially the messaging APP that they use and doing video chats with people. But that's something that we've continued even from here in our in our Beijing bureau because if the lockdown the logistics of getting back. They're really getting around. China has become increasingly difficult. And then add to that. What is obviously a hesitation towards the the media that's already existed here amongst everyday folks and what about the sensors that are omnipresent in China? Our citizen journalist coming up against even stronger walls of censorship. They are indeed and we are ourselves. CNN is doing a report short time ago about an hour ago and on the international feed and it was as soon as I was referring to President Xi Jinping in the citizen journalists likewise are feeling that in fact we've even learned one citizen journalist whose work we featured he was going from hospital. The hospital trying to really expose what was going on himself disappeared so it seemed his family kind of put out a plea instead. We haven't heard from him in a couple of days and it turns out he was forced into quarantine. Brian forced into quarantine. Wow and the story story about him is up on. CNN Dot Com. And all we can do. I suppose. Let people know about this censorship and let people know about the circumstances David thank you so much. That's offers televised additional reliable sources. We will see you back here. on Sunday eleven am eastern time and inflict plugged for next at ten P. M. Eastern. It's the premier of the windsors. All all about the royal family here on. We'll see next Sunday.

president CNN Donald Trump Fox Trump Union President Trump Nancy Pelosi Mitt Romney President Obama Brian stelter White House Senator Sherrod Brown Senate US Sarah Iskar Nancy McKay coppins Beijing Democratic Party Republican Party
Trump Allies Troll the Media, Andrew Luck Takes, and Joe Walsh for President | The Press Box

Channel 33

58:42 min | 1 year ago

Trump Allies Troll the Media, Andrew Luck Takes, and Joe Walsh for President | The Press Box

"Hey it's kelly welcome to the ringer. Podcast network and i felt preseason is in full swing and the ringer n._f._l. Show is now airing four shows each week covering the latest news stories training camp updates then football advice and more on the site robert mays kevin clark and danny kelly offer their insight on the twenty nine thousand nine season as we inch closer a kickoff you can read their pieces on the ring dot com and you can listen and subscribe to the ringer n._f._l. Show on apple spotify or you get your podcasts david. Some of the worst takes about quarterback andrew. Luck's retirement over the weekend devolved into millennial bashing. I don't even i have a question. Just just get we just retired while i guess this is a question. Can we just retire millennial bash. Do we have quorum to vote on this year because i hope the answer's answer's yes. I mean that's that's it would be. Let's just get rid of that. It's so every generation loves to have a shorthand to talk shit about the previous generation or hear about their children's generation and when you give it some like some sociological sheen like millennials and it feels like it's okay to be like my daughters autres friends are idiots. Ben feel like you're actually saying something insightful. Yeah and you and i are very generously. Speaking pre millennial like way pre millennial no oh yeah and and we're tired of it. I felt like i was watching the quentin tarantino movie where it had all the hippie anti hippie stuff and we're we're. We're not doing this again like fifty years years later. It just seems that the worst and by the way you and i you and i are situated kind of i think between jackson jesse and i think we should just go back to genetics bashing cash or even or even bashing right. Can't can't we go back or even. Hey let's keep going. Let's go greatest generation right a couple of guys around left. Why why why why why not bash everybody. The greatest generation had a right. What you gotta do is get out ahead of the naming the naming system and just call yourself the greatest of the best sunday sunday so if someone's just like if millennials just been like generation awesome then like you know everybody who's talking shit about him would feel really it'd be just as incredible dissonance like i can't believe elite. How terrible generation awesome is to work. We're the lost generation of media. Podcasts is the press box a part of the ringer podcast network. Hello media consumers. Bryan curtis and david shoemaker here does to to get to today. We're gonna talk about how the retirement of colts quarterback andrew luck produce the super bowl of bad takes. We'll talk about our new candidate for president of cable news. I i mean america joe walsh plus. The houston astros are trying to run a newspaper in detroit. A deadspin editor says farewell and that thing people do at the end of have long twitter threads but david. I want to start by talking to you about the news. From kenneth vogel and jeremy peters the new york times that a pro trump up group has been scouring the social media history of members of the press the group plans to dump what embarrassing stuff they find when the media reports on trump trump in a manner which they don't like which is pretty much always case in point on thursday the times published a profile of new white house press secretary stephanie grisham vogel and peter's report quote soon after the profile appeared online breitbart news published an article that documented anti semitic and racist tweets written in a decade ago by tom right personify who was in college at the time and has since become an editor on the times politics desk now follow along with me. The new york times wrote a piece about stephanie grisham. A pro trump group apparently passed tweets to breitbart from a different new york times employees who didn't edit the grisham piece and wrote those tweets when he was in college so this this is the oppo hit quote unquote here. You're kind of going a different thing but i guess they're point and and i want you to help me figure this out. Is it muddies the waters enough off so that people like sebastian gorka and sean spicer can be quoted instead breitbart article saying how evil and hateful the new york times is. Is that the point here sure i mean i'm sure i'm sure that the original pitch for this whoever it came from <hes> to whatever trump you know was the open set of ears was <hes>. I'm sure the pitch was that it would be sort of a closer to one to one thing right that it would be the writer. The editor and we can take them all down because they're all. They're all vulnerable but you know that's that's not how it works out and yet muddying the waters in some ways minding the water the muddies the waters is a is is weirdly more effective because you have to constantly reaffirm the connection action to the story even when there's not one right i mean it's like every news outlet has to say in reaction to this piece yes but but but but yes i think you're right muddying the waters <hes> <hes> has been the water has been muddied rather effectively. There was some piece that surfaced on social media somewhere from the conservative bloggers fear that actually conflicted conflated these charges with the stuff that was said about times editor john weisman so <hes> you're just like in this washing machine where you have no idea like wait one somebody at the time said something bad and i don't know who it was and that means everything in the paper is bad. It's just that is clearly the point now. I think i saw that connection. I saw that i saw that connection made in on like. I think the talking points made that. Can i mean everybody's making that connection. You know i mean it was. It's a totally really separate things <hes> in you know in one sense but there'd be no. There's there's a there's a connection there and it's not like both have been uses as weapons opens the <hes> i guess when these kind of stories come to the fore. We always say well. They're trying to intimidate the new york times c._n._n. The washington post their chief antagonists so they think in the media but the the funny thing is like i don't i think the intimidation part of this is actually the least effective part because there's nobody you get the new york times <hes> or the washington post or wherever that's gonna say boy. Let's let's take it easy on trump because what if they you know publish them <hes> embarrassing tweets we had when we were in college. This is not going to happen. There's just no way that that's ever gonna happen a little bit <hes> so the only use of this is as just as as you say to just confuse the issue enough that voters i who are concerned about such things or or have that on their checklist of things than just kind of throw up their hands even though by the way the new york times is not running for president. This is <music> which is always remember right. Trump trump wants us to think that the the chief political battle of our times is donald trump republican versus new york times representing leftism socialism democrats emigrants everything else that is actually not the case but i guess it just confuses everybody enough that they throw up their hands at the end of the day or that is what the trump trump people hope. I mean to some extent. I think that even the even the target audience for this <hes> is engaging in a sort of performance throwing up of hands right i mean i think that there are some people that probably believe this belief. Fully that you know given this new information. Your times is a disreputable outfit or whatever but i think the vast majority of people for whom this his <hes> the madrid were receptive to this know that it this is a you know a small of you know just a tiny thing an an insignificant thing and no it sort of a a an <hes> like i said it's it's a it's a formative. You know i mean it's not it's not knowing's actually changing their mind because of this it just makes your makes it makes your twitter apply a little bit snappier when you can reference the sort of thing it's amazing. <hes> i guess we knew this but it's amazing how quickly this stuff f- gets ricocheted around the right wing blogosphere and i know this because the breitbart article helpfully omitted itself to show at the end how many times it had been shared but <hes> you know but like the fact that like ted cruz picked up on this donald trump junior according to the times times <hes> tweeted at two dozen times mentioned sebastian gorka something called students for trump jack russell biak katrina pearson arthur schwartz who who is the mastermind and i use that term very loosely of this operation apparently according to the new york times <hes> in his a friend of donald trump junior's so this lynn patent a name who has go on this podcast before but this is the kind of thing. It's it's it's in a he. I think rush limbaugh other people picked up on this. It's a very very efficient media machine. <hes> that that sort of takes a little pellet like this and just and just circulates it around. There's something very don't you agree a little bit trolley gamer giddy about this. This all feels in the same zone. I mean more than a little. I think the first thing that i thought of was <hes> mike stern of going after after james gunn and that was just like a flex at the the director of gardens the galaxy who was fired and then subsequently rehired for some extremely off color twitter jokes <hes> <hes> but sort of attachment to it was like i said it was like a sort of definitional flex he just wanted to see what he could do sort of wanted to prove that he had the ability to get him fired more more more so than any sort of like political disagreement or payback or anything like that and i think in some way in which that's the case here to you know i mean it's maybe it's you know maybe maybe some people would would be <hes> tempted to to you know say this is a symptom of a totalitarian mindset mindset but it but regardless it's like this. Is you know let me let me show you the power that i have to do a thing. I think that the difference you know if you wanna say one between the sort of gamer aamer gate parallels in this obviously predates <hes> james gunn and all that stuff but going after gawker for instance for you know just totally misrepresented quotes by its tweets by its writers enters etc is that it worked briefly in the kind of meet the campaigns that they were running. You know to targe targeting golkar's advertise advertisers worked for a for a minute and then gawker was able to go back to the advertisers and be like listen. These people are operating in bad faith. This is a bunch of bullshit. Let me show you how but the difference is. It took doc someone who had a real vested interest in it. Which in this case was <hes> you know like the the people who stood or make money at gawker or at who were who were losing money right they had to they they went back and they and they said hey you know we're we're gonna argue against this. We're gonna show you show you how this is wrong and it seems james in some sense like the in some ways like the new york times and whoever you know the the newspaper journalism establishment is too. I don't know too scared or to make the case in their behalf or maybe there's just not as much to be gained to make the case to the general public i don't. I don't know i mean i don't know i don't know who the firm pushback is. Gonna come from in this case. Yes i think i think the times is probably also just has more of that kind of you've established brand thing in the public mind or at least the advertisers mind set may not be as necessary. You know it's not it's not like if the if i told you the dot the trump administration has attacked the new york times or a particular new york times editor who's gonna get the vapors because of that. We've seen this happened a whole bunch of those. This has happened virtually non-stop since trump became you know a serious political figure in twenty fifteen so so i don't. I just don't know that it's even that necessary. I don't know it's like it's not like somebody's going to be like. I'm never i'm not. I'm not advertising in the new york times anymore. Pulling my movie ads from the new york times because you found vowed something at editor tweeted in college right and that's not an it right and the target the target of these things is not the pockets right. I mean it's not the advertisers so much as it is just the times itself to say i mean one would assume to say i mean to make people afraid of going after trump and the trump administration which isn't going to happen like you pointed out but that seems to be the target here <hes> yeah you know <hes> you you sent me this response that hamilton nolan road really smart response. It's on splinter news today and i wanna talk about this. I want to talk about this whole piece but i think it's specific to what we're discussing right now. The question that i keep asking myself and maybe it's it's a rhetorical. Maybe it's <hes> maybe there's not an answer for it but he kind of he alludes to it and it sort of runs in the you know kind of undergirds a lot of what he wrote but but <hes> about halfway through he writes the real problem the one that lin's this entire conversation about basic media reporting tactics is the ridiculous overtone of this is an improper activity tippety rather than how bad tweets at that lies with with the respectable media outlets themselves and i do think there's something kind of central about that and that's the and that to me. He's the real parallel in james gunn situation although again reprehensible tweets blah blah blah but it said to be so kind of weak willed to be so risk averse to be so worried about what the next step of public outrage might be that you actually have to take it seriously or again performance really take it seriously seem as if you're taking it seriously <hes> mitigate losses i mean that's where the real problem i think comes from and maybe maybe a a ah the new york times or a similar you know bashing a media establishment is unable to say l._l. Right <hes> but maybe they should be able to well. It's to me there's a difference right. There's there's worrying too much about what what are the external ramifications of this and in our our these bad actors on the right some hypothetical corporation some hypothetical interest group. Are they going to get mad at us but then there is the internal implications of this like to me. It's you know i always rage on this podcast. This idea of oh. This is bad optics as opposed to just bad would jonathan wiseman has been was tweeting in that other previous times editor outrage was just bad and and that was informing the times coverage of politics politics that was bad that shouldn't those kind of those kind of dumb ideas should inform their coverage of politics iran in this one. It's a little bit of a different calculus because because the guy claims i was doing humor that was really gross in college and i thought i was being edgy by saying antisemitic stuff and putting anti semitic stuff on twitter and you know i think in the times is there is a self again. This is just purely internally with the times elected know that about an employee who may be destined for big things at the paper probably even even if it just amounts to the employees saying look this was just me being complete idiot in college and that's it but the internal part of this is so much more interesting to me then then again just like we're trying to wave are assorted. Somebody who's coming after something like that because there is an internal part of this right if it if you sit down with this guy and say okay it's just you being a complete asshole during college and trying to show your friends how you know funny and over the line you could be in a public forum okay but we want to decide decide that right. We don't wanna just we don't. We don't want to not decide that that is something we need to get straight amongst ourselves a couple of very minor points about that one. I think it's conceivable that he tweeted those things in completely forgot. He tweeted those things right. I mean that the specific things he tweeted. Were not you know something that he likes. I think if he woke up at any point in the past asked ten years and said and remembered that tweet he probably would have went gone back and deleted it right. I mean i think eight regardless of whether or not he still thought it was funny. I i assume he is wise enough to understand the. There's a potential downside to that. The other thing is i mean and maybe this is hopelessly naive of me but i always wondered these cases. How like there's not a person in h._r. Whose was job is to read tweets of new hires right. I mean to to hire somebody of this generation of this kind of the sort of person who's applying for these jobs. I will say in a very broad way and to not be interested in and and do it. We've had one twitter account that is consistent from the days of college until now oh it beggars belief that you would i mean of course there's going to be something in there to not go back through or not or at least avs some policy where you demand that people delete her entire twitter history or something you know it's like it's like interviewing somebody who openly affirms having a criminal history but not doing the background check. You know i mean it's like it's it's it's. It's silly to put this on anybody accepted. I mean if you're gonna put it on somebody. The time can look into that themselves right. Yeah i think so. I just think i mean i'm not nice about it. Yeah and i'm not even saying like if you if you did this stuff while you were in college that it's impossible awesome to work at the new york times ever or the fire. I'm not i'm not arguing. I'm just saying that the interesting discussion is how they figure that out how he's instantly indicate as office whomever and says what do we do about this right yeah because that's offensive that is i bet there is a hundred percent chance people two times are human. They understand they all did the things they wanted to but there is one hundred percent chance that offends people at the times the kind of that dude was playing with so you've gotta be able to get it right internally but again that to me is a much it's more you know that's a that's a different process than the trump will say we do about the trump campaign beer trump allies being mad at us and this is maybe an amazing. It's probably unnecessarily a necessary qualification at this point talking about this specific story but i do feel like a lot of the the moderate or left left leaning blogs that i saw covering this thing referred to the tweets asserted <unk> would kind of take it for granted that the tweets are racist in this case they were pretty they were pretty rough <hes> but we're going to see some tweets from the same outfit better like nominally racially nominally address address race and they're going to be called called racist and people are going to just parrot the word racism <hes> for the sake of like trying to win their argument. I think it's important at some point to be able to say like this is just a really really poor taste. Joke is a bad joke and it's not an outward expression of like racism but anyway maybe that's beside the point now aww but i would say it as a related point when i saw the story when i saw the story that this was this groups this group was gearing up to embarrass journalists and this was the first the thing they came up with with a militantly low wattage person who had nothing to do with what they were extensively mad about yeah. I sort of thought maybe this is the best they got. You know maybe this is. Maybe this is the one that you can hold up and at least as you say with with a lot of hard working bad that faith interpretation use the word anti semitic or racist or whatever you wanna use for it <hes> this is this is the best you got. The rest of the stuff is so grey zone that the people most people just ignore it. I don't know i don't know maybe that's true but i think a lot of it is is the willful misrepresentation and then the blind adherence to that right. I mean that is what that is. I really am reluctant and have been forever to draw a straight line from gamer gate to the presence of donald trump but there is a lesson from from gamer gate which will mean a lot of the attacks on gawker rested on the the very deliberate and willful and like sarcastic misrepresentation shen of ironic tweets yes and as as straight series as like utter seriousness and then it's not just the people that are doing that because that might be the enough to sway you know an advertiser for a week away from advertising on a website but it's at the audience full of people who are who are very receptive captive to the to the non the ironic reading of the tweet and so it's a it's a sort of it's a it's a it's a two piece conundrum and even if it's the best they got going forward even as we see more of the stuff for some people all they need to see is a third party tweet saying racism exists at the new york times. You know here's another racist thing. I i don't need to go into the tweets and get the details or i will accept your will your your your your <hes> your your willful misrepresentation of said tweets anyway. I think i think that's right though i think those those people probably already think that because they've already been told that by sean hannity at some point in the last ten years and so this is a confirm or rather than something that changed their mind. Here's just one thought experiment. I'd like to leave you with before we move on. If the if gawker splinter remains of gawker ghost gawker whatever calling it now l. found that james gunn tweet they were searching james guns tweets they would prob. They would do nothing with that. They would probably recognize that as a gag right that was pulled out of twitter out of context and used against him. What if they found this new york. Times editors tweets from college is at a gawker is at a splinter piece. Maybe right actually think gee. I actually think james gunn has is a better peace because there's because it's a body of work i mean it's like if you it would be. I don't think it would be fire fire james gunn. I think it would be jesus. Christ james gunn has a terrible sense of humor and then or are used to have a terrible sense of humor and they could catalog the forty instances of it <hes> <hes> i don't think i don't think it'd be presented in a manner in which to get somebody fired <hes> i probably it probably would be presented. More of a way of like man man disney's batter doing their homework but <hes> but i but i think you're right if they took me to take your question at face value if they found those tweets where they write about him. I mean i. I kind of doubt it but i don't think it would be is it not a story. I mean it was hamilton. Nolan says in this in this as like it is a classic new york observer splinter gawker story. This guy has some bad tweet now. They're not going to write about in the breitbart away like the evil new york times etcetera etcetera but you know that this guy was trying to do a lot of really horrible jokes back in two thousand and ten and within a decade. He is a political editor at the times. I don't know i don't know if they do that story or not but i but i think there's a good chance that they do to me rests on whether or not the ethos of the place has sort of gives a blanket pass to joke somebody made in college you know or something like that and and i don't know that i don't i don't i think if you i think it's so tenuous to draw a straight line from who he was then who he is now that that you would have to have something something more recent than that to make newsworthy but maybe not maybe you're right are david. Let us move to a forum where we always take things out of context the overworked twitter joke of the week where we celebrate celebrate gag that was so obvious that all of media twitter made it at exactly the same time skis me send your nominees to at the press box pod where they are always gratefully received the actor russell crowe. David went to one of the u._s._a. Australia fiba games last week congrats to australia by the way official country or the oppressed boxer winning one of those games <hes> russell crowe was not happy with his seats which were on the floor level but actually below the basketball basketball floor and he tweeted fifteen hundred dollars for a ticket for this view jokes on me if you weren't among the fifty thousand there and you chose to watch it on on t._v. At home good decision it was an overworked twitter joke to ask russell crowe. Are you not entertained. Thanks to jay kyle man for that one did did you see the picture david of tom brady wearing a hat flato hat with a bit nasty the flathead hurriedly google that tom brady eighty hat as i set this up for because overwork twitter joe to compare him to lyell land only in the monorail episode of the simpsons and i could do the lines for you but let's leave it to the late grades phil hartmann the names landlady liar linley and i come before you good people tonight with an idea. The air probably the greatest <hes> it's not for you. It's more of a shelbyville idea now. Wait just a minute. We're twice this modest. Modern people have shelbyville. Just tell us your idea and will vote for it all right. I tell you what i'll do. I'll show you my idea. I give you that has springfield monorail missile hartman so much really do especially especially at moments when tom tom brady comes to resemble him at patriots training camp finally david on saturday night indianapolis colts quarterback andrew luck surprised just about everyone and retired nine seconds after that are mentions blew up the basic move here was to write the colts. Luck just ran out. Okay that was that was like that was the lowest form of overworked twitter slightly better giving lux stated reasons of self preservation was for love of the brain for love of the brain and what actually turned out to be one of the least bad takes the night o._j. Simpson went win on twitter to complain about having just drafted luck in his fantasy. Football draft was an overwork twitter joke to say o._j. Should have run with a bronco <hes> thanks to do john. Maclean patrick higgins m._g. A bill ben gibson barreds against ancillaries prime for pointing that out of us lux retirement to once again reboot the o._j. Chase congrats you made the over twitter joke of the week david time for the notebook and let us segue immediately into an andrew luck take fest because was on saturday. This was a football story that immediately transformed into a very weird media story. I the football. This is the voice of a twenty nine year old n._f._l. N._f._l. quarterback who is retiring way way way before he wants to retire. This is not an easy decision. <hes> honestly honestly the hardest decision on my life <hes> but it is the right decision for me. <hes> for the last four years is there so i've been in this cycle of injury pain rehab injury injury pain rehab and it's been unceasing and relenting unrelenting both in season both in and off season and i felt stuck in it and the only way i see out us to to no longer play football luck choked up several times during that press conference first thing i think we should hit here is just how oh this caught. Everybody off guard including luck himself. <hes> adam schefter broke the news while luck was on the sideline during a colts game against the chicago bears. There's <hes> he he had planned to tell the world at a later date to fans in the stadium there an indie found out about it during the it came and booed andrew luck as he left the field yet but you know people were talking about how it's the most shocking sports story of x. It's number of years of their lifetime or whatever it is but it just strikes me that it was it was an interesting sport story to watch because nobody had a script already including luck himself i mean i think that's it right. I mean it's not. I don't think the story itself is shocking. We've actually had this story happened before. Now you know maybe not have a star of his widish adage. Maybe not the exact place in his career may not certainly not on the precipice of what could have been the his best season <hes> as some people were sort of <unk> <hes> sketching it out to be. I think this is another instance where our expectations <hes> play play a large role in our reaction to what happened because <hes> certainly you're not expecting this to happen. It's not the normal time for football player to retires at the end of the season not at the the beginning of one <hes> and certainly not as you're literally preparing for your first your first game now he's he was going to sit out for a little bit but <hes> it just came as a shock you know the timing was weird and end to double down on the timing was weird. The time came may at an amazing time in the sports calendar. Nothing else was going on so not only was it shot that that speaks to the fact that we don't expect anything to happen but then when something does happen we have an entire sports media complex mobilize in in in mock or serious <hes> alarm at something like this going on <hes> and yeah i mean unless he was i think fit andrew looks as sort of singular figure <hes> he came obviously in as a replacement on the colts for peyton manning and <hes> and we have a very special a place in our heart for this sort of pantheon quarterbacks which is a level of which you never quite ascended but that that is the narrative were were were wrestling with year and i think there's a lot of different feature. I mean factors th that that sort of complicate the story i will say before we just to make sure i say it. There were million bad takes about this about andrew looks retirement talk about <hes> about the fans reaction on the field. I wanna i wanted to suggest a bad taste of my own. Which was <hes>. I would like to defend. I would like to defend fin. The colts fans who were present at the game for booing andrew luck. This is a shockingly bad thing to happen as as a as a die hard sports fan the people who were there was this the post fourth-quarter people who'd stayed to the very end of a preseason game. This is the most die-hard dot kind of team fans. You could possibly imagine they get the worst news that could possibly happen to their team at a time when they weren't expecting it and it's not as if sitting up in the stands ends you had the ability to say wow. This caught me off guard bright. I mean you only have about four possible. Noises you can make in mass and one one of them is the quintessential expression of unhappiness and that that is a boo it. It is okay to boo situation like this. I know it hurt. Sandra looks feelings and you know what he's gonna. Come back on week eight and he's gonna go to the middle of the field in the fans are going to give him a standing ovation and we're going to pretend like it's a direct line from this point and maybe it is but it's okay to do something. Terrible happens your team right in front of you. When it's the most important thing in your life one hundred percent. I completely agree with you. I you know what i think. Every time something like this happens i always think sports media people a have renounced their phantom in a deeply a natural way and being. They never sit in the stands at game <hes> they don't. They don't know what that's like. I i i will not condone racism very personal personal specific misogyny or any kind of that kind of taunting of players just about anything else. I'll forgive fans for throwing things or whatever you know what i'm talking about the stuff that is clearly early bonkers but anything else i will forgive temporary insanity. Go sit go sit. Go root for a team and sit in the stands and then present the world with a recording of how you sounded during game and all the stuff you said and all the all the north you've made you just do it because i don't want to go there. Watch couple of cowboy what games a couple of texas games here. There's no way i will tell people what i what i did the stance absolutely not let's hope some trump supporting active activist droop he doesn't get hand of one of those recordings badge that i'm i'm yelling at the oklahoma sooners and i'd turn around a matthew boyle from breitbart standing right behind me with a record around who with every the worst oh my gosh they we would have been so much i mean i would have we really sad to have to think of you as a former co worker but i am sympathetic for fans but not so much for media members like dan doubt former college basketball coach and talk radio guy <hes> he tweeted this hate to say i told you about luck but has is all the local and national guys. Were making excuses for him. I told you this guy was not real. <hes> doug gottlieb analyst one fuck sports radio oddly another guy from from the world of college basketball rather than football says retiring cause rehabbing his too hard quote unquote is the most millennial thing ever <hes> the response to got laid got all the attention came from his fox colleague troy aikman last night sunday night. That's total bullshit doug. What qualifies you to decide how someone to live their life so now you're the authority on what motivates andrew luck and if his decisions don't fit what you think is best for me rip him guess at keeps you employed loyd on f s one nice we have funding the fox lot or beverly hills by the way that that was the one that got all the attached but i dunno if you looked and gottlieb's mentions all these famous blue check marks appeared like daniel dale. C._n._n.'s fact checker replied collided. You only appear on my feet. When you have an extremely bad take which unfortunately means you're there all the time. Doug golly made the canadian fact checker angry how how bad you have to be and i'll go you one further david brit mckenry mad in his mentioned do with all the pro football you've played. I can see where you're coming from. Dot dot dot dot britt. Mchenry was trolling doug golly. You truly you have truly truly gone off the twitter deep end when that happens can can. I say something without without implicating anybody specifically but twitter generally here. It's rick if this retirement had come down a monday morning at ten a._m. When we're drinking our coffee i think maybe there's like a first taker undisputed chiron that says to andrew luck doc walk out on his team and one of the hosts kind of gamely plays along with that idea but this comes out on saturday night her bays at home. Everybody's let's say some people have had a couple of beers right. People are just relaxed. That's to me when the twitter bad really comes out because you just you're just shooting at that point and the takes get like thirty percent worse before they're even typed. I think that had something to do with it anyway oy yeah. I think that's true. I mean listen. I think the guy leave is an idiot and i think he's also you know doing this deliberately. He's trolling <hes> <hes>. This is not the first time let us remember the troy. Aikman is taken a vocal stand earliest twitter vocal stand against <hes> <hes> <hes> against a co worker an f. s. one co worker <hes>. I'm not sure that he has any worries about his. You know <hes> is career standing for going after the skip. Bayless is in the leaves of the world got. I'm just thinking right now. In lewis minch also when doug gottlieb lebron. Oh wow but yeah i mean. I think that it's incid i mean this is just one of those times where <hes> and this is why doug dot leaves take felt so utterly wrong <hes> but also why the response in in general has felt so a little has felt so confounding and a lot of different ways is this is one of those instances where our sports cliches are really being outmaneuvered hoover or or really losing the battle to the basic concepts of humanity and it is hard to conduct a i take segment on those terms and it's it's hard to have a twitter conversation on those terms but as a as is anybody watching this and maybe maybe you're right. Maybe it's something to do with the fact that that that our conversation wasn't guided in the first forty eight hours by television but it's but it but it is difficult to look this situation and not just be in a position of sympathy right. I mean you can't watch his press conference and not be like oh wow that's a real human doing very human thing thing and you know as much as i would love to have a fraction of the money that he gave up by walking away. I think we can all sort of sympathize with where he is in life right now and <hes> and you know it's that that is not an arena in which hot takes <hes> for the most part <hes> really very very effective can move from one hash mark year to the other and say so we're all agreed or every every one of except doug gottlieb was agreed that you can't troll troll of football player for retiring too early but can we also agree that you can't troll a football player for retiring too late because in alternate universe verse andrew luck stumbles around for the next four years. He gets hurt all the time. He's clearly a shell of his former self and then isn't the standard. Take geez. It's time for andrew luck to hang it up. I mean come on come on now. This is just got andrew. It's embarrassing. It's time to retire. You're you're in. Isn't that what we've been saying about manning for like three years and why is it not okay to do number one but it's okay to do number two <hes> no. I think that's a good and i think that's a really a good point. I think that there's a lot of people who were being who i saw being inter richard sherman was was giving interviews <hes> in defensive andrew luck and i couldn't help but think that that's going to be part of his eulogy eulogy not wrong word but that's going to be part of his legacy when he retires is that he may be hung around a couple years too long <hes> and i think in particular right now with quarterbacks is exclusively absolutely maybe <unk> quarterbacks in line and middle linebacker weirdly that it's just like you do get the you know the the concussion and the just physical toll real concussions and another you know life life life lasting laughed lasting physical tolls become such a part of the narrative that like yeah you would rather your. You'd rather guys retire soon retire early. Them's lily had the had that other conversation potentially had the other conversation on the back and by the way i'm sure it doesn't need to be said but that's where troy troy aikman is coming from. I'm sure with his loud jackson. The godly visit he was a guy who was forced out a flying by concussions in an era where that was really uncommon. Where we're nowhere first of all he probably got you know because of the science was so primitive at that point he probably took a few concussions that he shouldn't have taken and also he he was treated like i mean there is a chorus of doug dot leaves out there saying that he quit his team. <hes> and you know thank god. We're not in that world anymore. In two thousand twenty news david seth. I'm pulling it. Literally zero molten left the presidential race last week but never fear because we've got a new contender joining winning the royal rumble and he's on the other side he is joe walsh the former one term congressman and tea partier from illinois who has spent his post congressional years as talk show host and a guy who tweets things from at walshfreedom like the fact that he is declaring war on obama and black lives matter finally a reasonable alternative donald trump. The world says here's walsh announcing his g._o._p. Candidacy on this week with george stephanopoulos george no surprise. We've got a guy in the white house who's unfit completely unfit to be president and it stuns me that nobody stepped up. Nobody in the republican party stepped stepped up because i'll tell you what george everybody believes in the republican party. Everybody believes that he's unfit. He lies every time he opens his mouth. Alex breen marine our old pal tweets walsh. Is it running for president. He's running for joe scarborough great. I guess my question is is there any way in which this is something other than generating a bunch of cable news hits <hes> in the form of a candidacy far. Be it from me to you know scoff at a redemption narrative. I feel like i would be more compelled by just about anybody other than joe walsh he i have obviously been following the joe walsh show with the <hes> any any bit of my brain over the past several years but <hes> i i believe i have improperly categorized as someone who is <hes> who is <hes> threatening a revolution. If trump lost the election last time <hes> that's right and and certainly there are a lot of people who have come to terms or you know who <hes> who were trump supporters at some point that that don't like the direction that his presidency is taken but yeah i mean it does feel a little bit opportunistic. This is the guy who called stevie. Wonder quote another ungrateful. Black multimillionaire are in quote for kneeling and supported colin kaepernick <hes> after the controversy about calling different countries should holes joe walsh tweeted quote. Haiti is a shit hole and it's run owned by blacks end quote. He called obama repeatedly a muslim <hes> in that interview with george stephanopoulos where he announced his candidacy does he said i had strong policy disagreements with barack obama and too often. I let those policy disagreements get personal you see by calling him a muslim over and over again that was that was eating personal personal with barack obama but now reinvented as a challenger to donald trump. He sorta sounds like a democrat. I wanna play for you a little clip from the personal personal announcement he made from his twitter account. Tell me if this is a guy running for the republican nomination or the democratic one. We cannot afford four more years of donald donald trump. No way what cannot wait is all of us having the courage to finally say publicly what we all know owned privately. We're tired. We're tired of a president waking up every morning. In tweeting ugly insults at ordinary americans were tired of a president who sides with putin against our own intelligence community. We're tired of a president who thinks he's above the law. Were tired of a president. Didn't who's tweeting this country into a recession and we're tired. We're so damned tired of a president who is teaching millions of american american children every day that it's okay to lie and it's okay to be a bully enough. Joe walsh apparently recorded that in the orchestra <hes> pity the symphony was tuning up mormons. What weird music that was the person he is describing ready against sounds a lot like the joe walsh twitter account. May maybe change if you're the specifics but this idea that we would wake up to the joe walsh presidency and not worry about what he had tweeted that morning yeah sounds pretty far fetched based on the joe walsh post congress career which was a lot of bad tweets so so. I don't know i don't know i don't know if i believe joe walsh. I don't know <hes> couple of things that the risk of taking his challenge seriously a couple of points. I thought were interesting. One is from claire jeffrey editor in chief mother jones. She says the thing about walsh running for president isn't that he offers a less racist was n._r._a. Beholden way for the g._o._p. It doesn't but to them. It's another signal see nikki haley that folks in the g._o._p. Are starting to position themselves now. For a post trump future so essentially trump's they're going to be there for four more years or very likely. He gets defeated in two thousand twenty and every you see republicans now will making lots who had had made lots and lots of supportive noises about the president now starting to attack a little bit. So what am i gonna do for years. What's my brand gonna be and you know am. I can be either on talk radio or as haley would as a candidate potentially being the guy who delivers us from trump. I think that in some ways while she's even more more i dunno vocal a canary in the coalmine canary. Go mine's mig noise <hes> how they signal themselves anyway. I think i think he's even he's more yellow canary sorry than all the rest because he has a real <hes> financial stake. This isn't some like vague vague. You know prospect of future employment. This is <hes> you know <hes> <hes>. This is a if you wanna take it as if you wanna. You know assume that that this is a calculator doing this calculator way the calculation is how can i make the most money and <hes> he in some ways. I think is gonna gonna encourage a lot of other people to to follow because he's you know i mean he's he's. He's he's bold enough to make the bet. Why shouldn't shouldn't you be and i think that's right. I mean i think that's i think the other important thing is that for all i mean we've talked many times before but how the media is <hes> you know relies on people relies on getting quotes to say things that are true and and and also <hes> you know i think think it'll just think it'll make it easy for mainstream news outlets that have difficulty covering the president in our point at him pointed joe walsh and say and even for the democratic candidates to due to kind of take the things like his tweeting temperament his his other just like lack of conservatism baseline conservatism it almost takes that off the table and makes implicit for newspapers and for the democrat candidate so you can you can actually argue on policy point which he hasn't you know very little defense on and and <hes> you know hopefully <hes> the candidacy of similarly joe walsh makes that you know sort of makes all that stuff a little bit easier to cover the deal with we got a few request to talk about meghan green wells goodbye story from deadspin <hes> as we talked about a few shows ago greenwell who was editor of deadspin left for wired dot com when her bosses at geo media decided to turn her former site into a bad reboot of for the win or try to anyway greenwell and i don't think this counts as pure sports content david co <hes> wrote a story saying goodbye to her bosses. It was a really great piece of writing full. Stop <hes> but really skillful and the way she reframed her exit in such a way as to hit these guys where it hurts <hes> she writes the tragedy of digital media isn't that it's run by ruthless profiteering guys and ill-fitting suits. It's at the people posing as the experts no less but how to make money than their employees to whom they won't listen <hes> she notes. Jim span feller the c._e._o. There wanted to double poland then quadruple the patriots which is to web metrics at this late date what counting r._b._i.'s is to baseball <hes> she notes anyway that even with with that posted the concourse deadspin vertical devoted to politics and culture and other topics that are not sports outperformed posts on the main site by slightly more than two to one which i thought was really interesting interesting <hes> so essentially what she's saying is it's not the staff of deadspin burning the american flag and and these money guys coming in and go. Let's calm down so we can all make some money. It's a staff deadspin saying no no. We know how to make money. You have a dumb unplanned to make money which is to squeezed the site as as much as you can to try to get the short term payoff instead of building something that's going to make money and lasts for years seniors. Did i get that. I think that's right. I think that's right. I think that you know and and and it was a really good piece. I'm glad it was written. <hes> you know maybe this is really. Maybe the this paints. I'm gonna show myself to be idiotic. Is you know anybody running a blog log company in two thousand nineteen but it doesn't really help the case for span feller and his cohorts that they can't figure out a way to not let post like this go up on the site. They're trying to micromanage the strike. One one says still still still non-sports content appearing assault. Let's say that too <hes> because they may start taking it off got a quick story for you. From baseball david last wednesday there was a game between the houston astros and the detroit tigers but what was interesting was the pitcher for the astros stroz was a former tiger. Just ver- lander and ver- lander has a problem with anthony finnick. Who's a tigers beat writer. At the detroit free. Press verleger did not want to talk to anthony after the game so he did a couple of things first team of professionals or i guess his agent called the detroit free press us and said. Please send someone else to cover the game. The free press declined and sent anthony finnick after all he is there beat writer verlinden pitch the game and afterwards afterwards when the press had been let into the clubhouse finnick found himself barred at the door by three astros security officials and yes. There's a picture of this. That looks as ridiculous victimless as you can. Imagine finnick called major league baseball <hes> m._l._b. Then called the astros gene diaz who is a president of communications and finnick was belatedly. Let into the clubhouse now. This was a small thing but it's important because the issue here is not justin verlander not wanting to talk to a reporter which of course has every right to do. It's justin verlander and jean de as the astros not being allowed to run a newspaper sports page decide who gets to cover a game. That's not how this works works. You don't get to call the ringer and say hey you know we'd love to have <hes> david shoemaker at cover the laker game tonight but you can't send bryan curtis because because we don't like him if we were both accredited basketball renters. That's not how it works. They don't get to pick who does that so it's an important point because if they did get to pick that this would happen all the time as we know athletes can be big babies about the stuff. They get mad at a piece of journalism. What can you band that guy from the locker room. Can you just tell this another port. I don't like him anymore. Nanna not gonna do it and that is the road to perdition and the <hes> free press's complained in major league baseball in fact admitted that the astros had made a mistake and <hes> you know seemingly a privately are taking steps yeah yeah i mean i mean i i. I know that this is a serious issue and ver- landers. There's probably reacting to it or p._r. Team are reacting to it because they understand the gravity of it but i could have done without like fo- <hes> philosophical like tweet of non contrition where he was just like listen. I gave him the opportunity i did. I this this was a very this is the this was like a very true you know standard ask and reasonable negotiation and and they just you know they just refuse to respond to me. I don't i don't know what's going on in that great yeah. There's no. There's no negotiation you you. You don't have have a seat at the editorial table when we do our meeting about who's going to cover the game and who's he trying to convince because everybody knows what he's saying is nonsense and accept and the crowd who doesn't know that i feel like would be at least. I mean if i can speak for myself. <hes> you know ah i would. I would be more compelled to say like fuck that guy. You know what i mean. It would be that would that would mean a lot more to me because at least it would show some sort of humanity and not just dislike. Just this idiocy is like p._r. Approved silliness. I mean come on and tell us that and the asking me talk about astros worse by the way the astros are way my worst for orlando for this. I mean baseball player sure have fits all the time but as a team you gotta you gotta go up to go. Sorry this is the way it works this. Is we have a responsibility. What's the press doing you don't get mad because he talked because the reporter talked about him watching it d- eclipse and then subsequently for trying to he thought for trying to steal his phone number or something something like that by the way there was no act that made it seem like he was trying to steal his own number it was he gave him his business card and in in reaction to well. I guess it was in reaction to the story that verlinden wanted to retract he wanted to he gave him an and on the record interview and then later on we prefer you not run that and then when the guy was like i'm going to run it but here's my card. If you want to amend what you said orlando said i think you're trying to steal my phone number. It's amazing you'd have to he would have to call him from his cell phone and then you know once the winter reporter is your cell number of the jig is up. I mean the whole thing is just like so dumb so dumb chris. Thomas of the free press had a whole rundown of the ver- lander finnick saga which we put on our twitter account by the way the result of the game just inverted through nine solid innings gave up only two runs but he didn't get any run support in the astros lost two to one. That's a shame one thing said to us by. Our european correspondent are british correspondent hugh hopkins one of my favourite correspondence. Was this bit about long. Long twitter threats okay he asked this is hugh asking every time a person posts a twitter thread. That's really emotional and really interesting usually telling a story about their life. Why does that thread end with an advertisement for the person's work the latest example for james c dyer who writes for empire magazine over the u._k. On thursday dire tweeted just went through l._a._x. Immigration presented my journalist visa and was stopped by the customs and border order protection agent and accused of being part of the fake news media he continues. The agent wanted to know if i'd ever worked for c._n._n. Or m._s._n._b._c. or other outlets that are quote spreading lies is to the american people be aggressively told me that journalists are liars and are attacking the their democracy. Okay this is this is fabulously interesting right trump ism awesome runamuck and at the airport and immigration all this stuff then you go down down down and then dire says while you're here please subscribe to my pilot tv podcast so so if you'd like if you like this long story about immigration and trump isn't please please ascribed my podcast. I just thought that's it's funny. I know we're all trying to advertise our stuff and everything but but but it's a very good point and it is often very jarring that you that you see it tuck there at the end of the twitter threat thread alright stanford david shoemaker guesses strengthen headline. Friday's winner was no margin for error. This one and i loved this isn't even strain. This is just this is genius. You know this is herald. As esquire level it comes from eric reiner and it's from a new york times story by davy lockwood about an australian woman named blanche de honest ozzie who studies cease snakes sea snakes david the scientists. This is what happens. She gets towed along by a boat <hes> she's wearing a snorkel and all that stuff but she towed along by a boat and and she finds sea snakes on the ocean floor and captures them for further study okay. She finds sees next on the ocean floor captures. Here's them for further study. That's all. I think we need here. What is the new york times strained pun headline about a woman who studies sneaky. Let's see snakes aim high 'cause this is good. <hes> oh i'm jim got got it. Did he okay first thing that pops into my mind which i'm guessing is not high enough <hes> and probably biologically incorrect is the eel mccoy coy that is biologically incorrect and also not correct okay <hes> so i'm using snail. I i mean there's there's strikingly few things straightened view snake a._d._m.'s. The snake in the grass doesn't work at sea snake. Is that what i'm working working with the whole phrase. Why don't you think of famous tongue twisters. Oh is this alley so seashells <hes> she sells <hes>. Is it sally or she. She says she says she so see snakes by the by the c oh oh by on the seafloor she studies sea snakes by the sea floor nets main tastic work. Jams lacked a new law audit well done producer. Jim and well done to your type c. There's a new york time sub editor to celebrate yeah yeah yeah. That was really good work. I really appreciate that what doesn't breitbart right at article about him or her. Let's give them some credit anyway great stuff. He is david shoemaker. I'm brian curtis research chris. L. made a production magic by jim cunningham. We're back friday bright and early with more luke takes about the media. See then david see you later man and why are you here. Check out all the great journalism on the ring dot com twitter <music> <music> david. Thank guy yeah yeah my god. I don't even have a question okay so this is a fabulously interesting right. Why is it not okay to do number one but it's okay to do wow this caught me off guard right. I mean you only have about four possible noises. You can make in mass <music> <music>.

twitter The new york times andrew luck donald trump president joe walsh football james gunn editor gawker breitbart david colts houston astros ben gibson detroit tom tom brady barack obama spotify
Ep 19: Josh: Living Comfortably in a Third Culture Language Space

Changing Scripts: Conversations about Mandarin Chinese with native speakers and learners

1:59:46 hr | 1 year ago

Ep 19: Josh: Living Comfortably in a Third Culture Language Space

"What I'm talking about. Basically, is is a central space. That is emerging. It's not Chinese. It's not English is sort of the combination of the was something very different. We have a meeting all. Now. He didn't cover. Londor Rahall Nemi out, you getting a lie home? Joe circle. Back back, like I said, let covered a lot today. Ego, align with that department and then we'll circle back to it. And so these super business jargon words, often don't make the switch to Chinese because Chinese they're not jogging. Welcome to the changing scripts podcast where we describe our language learning stories with focus right now on Mandarin. Chinese my name is Stephanie, and I was an English language instructor for about fifteen years. Mostly in Asia, also, I was earning to read Mandarin Chinese through the H, S, K, Chinese-language, tough materials all of last year. I've been on a bit of a break from my own language, learning. But I've added the language learning material back to my day bag. So I think I could be starting studying again any day. Now, in fact, this podcast is part of the chaining scripts pod to experience which is part podcast this. Part YouTube channel and the YouTube channels where I share my own slow but steady, like, which turning progress. So if you'd like to know more about what I'm going to be doing or would I have done with the language any challenges questions, frustrations, and all that good stuff? Come on over to the changing scripts YouTube channel, you could bind the Lincoln, the show notes below, or you can just type in changing scripts with an S on YouTube, and boom, there we are in the changing scripts podcast. We chat with people that grew up using Mandarin Chinese, as well as people like myself, who learned it as an adult in this particular episode Joshua Ogden Davis left graduate school in Texas, moved to China and taught himself Chinese. He is now Mandarin. Chinese translator does audio and video production in multiple languages and is the puppeteer in this chaining scripts podcast episode, we dig into Josh's fuller language, learning story, including the switch from English Mandarin Chinese as well as his experiences with Spanish German and English from his. Before time we learn that other Josh was good at 'em leg. Learning aspects of chromatic knowledge growing up until he actually was able to simultaneously. Learn and immediately use Mandarin Chinese steady understood the importance of motivation, activation and fluency over accuracy, Josh shares has hilarious Chinese language experience from taxi rides where he was asking pretty detail his own experience on a local Chinese dating show. He admits that he spends most of his time in the space in between English and Chinese languages and ponders if that could be something called third culture language TC, if you have any questions or comments while you're listening to this feel free to contact me on any social media. My handles the same effort. Rare deaf. Puccio. S. T. E. P. H F. You see CIO. That is also my g mail address. You can Email me if you prefer to do that. Now, let's meet, Josh and get some more details about these language learning. Experiences. Thank you so much for joining us. Unchanging scripts today. Josh can you give our listeners a little bit of an overview of your language story have to be here? Thank you for having me. I'm from Texas. I don't sound like from Texas unless I get angry and that happens very rarely. So I came to China in two thousand and ten after dropping out of graduate school. What would and I learned Spanish in school when I was a kid like everyone in Texas, does, and learn it incredibly poorly and Ken speak. No Spanish to you at this time after I came to China nine years ago, I started learning Chinese because I thought you know, how much of a waste of space him. I don't even give it a shot when I come here and I am pretty much self taught in Chinese and after nine years, I'm now a translator translated a book, I've written about then book, I do bilingual podcasts. I do a lot of translation work as for, for marketing, mostly for luxury cars. Okay. So if I understand it correctly, the language is at your disposal at varying levels or English Spanish. Question, mark. All I have that one sentence. But you can understand some a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So we'll say those, those are the three. Well, let's start at your first language. What was your first language English right? And I like diving into the brains of our former selves forgive me these questions. But what do you remember about learning English? That's very interesting. I don't I didn't pay him to say that. I don't remember learning I don't I don't know if anyone ever remembers learning at the very early stages, where you still trying to figure out what these sound shapes people make with their mouths and then they get sandwiches from other people because it made the right mouth sounds. I don't remember that stage of, of language. Learning I do remember feeling in grade school like I really enjoyed writing partly because I was very easily destructible I had a very active imagination. I like being able to put my imagination somewhere on a page. I have atrocious. Handwriting. That's language class from my earliest, memories of language class is me, hating writing with my hands because I it never got better. My handwriting is still like like a child. I played his dragging sometimes and as part of the game, I'm usually dungeon master. I have to write. Sometimes I write things like you find a note on the sidewalk that says this here's and I gave it to one player and they had to decide whether or not to share with people, and one of the times, one of the players said, so I found the note on the sidewalk, and I think it was written by an insane person because the handwriting is incredibly childish, but they use big words like all that was not part of the gay just my failures. Don't human. So I also at the time when I was first learning grammar, I thought it was interesting, the way that you could sort of break language down into almost a quasi mathematical concept. Which I'm sure something people talk about on your podcast, all the time. No now I wish they would know. Nice to meet you. I found that interesting but not intriguing because I was still being graded on it. And I wanted to be sitting under a tree or fishing not doing that. Did you have to label like different parts of speech is the kid in school? I think so. Yeah, I did find that intriguing. I did find that I was good at that. I it was that sort of systematic analysis. I'm sure there's a work for them. That was intriguing to me. And it was sort of felt like opening a secret door because language is something that we use all the time for everything. But we never think about it even now Chinese people are known skipping ahead several years. Chinese people insist to me that Chinese has no grammar, and that's because I don't think they're taught grammar they when they have English class, they're taught this English grammar. There's the parts of speech is how they fit together but they're not taught Chinese that way and I can see both sides of that. Heck I don't think that I think you're right that there is Chinese grammar, but it is significantly different. Absolutely. She asked less complex, but it's still there. Yeah, otherwise. Sandwich, and the sandwich. It's me indistinguishable right at the very at the very base level there, there are now NHS verbs adjectives. And some of them like some you can verb, some nouns. He can't very by their nouns Royd orders important. You got to put the low in the right place. There is Chinese grammar, but people insist that there's not, because unless someone sits you down in a room, sometimes with twenty or thirty of your peers, when your kids and tells you, hey, this is grammar. This is what all these things are innocent, how they work together, and there's a right way, in a way, unless someone tells you that you would never think about it. And I've met a lot of English teach English teachers abroad for a different age levels from different countries who've had varying experiences learning grammar in English in their first language growing up, like I grew up in the seventies in the US, and we for sure labeled and underlined and circled and highlighted, and we had grammar tests, and my husband's just what eight years younger than me. And he didn't do any of that. Like we went out of fashion of doing that, apparently on the US after that, or it was just the different state because we have state by state education systems, which drives me nuts. A lot of Brits that I met, British people nationals. Okay. Okay. Slurp. That I've met who never studied Grabar, formerly and learned as they were teaching English overseas. And we're like, oh, what's that verb tense or what that, what's that thing called like they'd see something in the in the book that they're supposed to teach that they and have to go into a reference mental to see examples, they knew how to use things, but didn't formally learn it? I do that because there are some like the basics. That's announ got. It adjective modifies a noun advise. The got it even though I don't know how to pronounce modifies, but there are certain slightly more esoteric concepts. I constantly have to Google. So I know I know what it is. And how to use it. But I don't know how to I don't know the right Dame to put on it. So I do that. And I'm sure that someone told me that in, in grammar class at some point, and it just. Oh, causative passive. I spent a good two or three hours studying what it was when I was teaching Kuala Lumpur. And yeah. And then finally went, oh, I actually use this. I know this it does. Voices like was hit and causative would be hits he hits. Right. Is that what we're talking about? Have to bring everything to its most common kind of base form for me to understand it and then teach it to folks. And so it turned out to be the I called it the rich person's form where it's like I had my hair done. I had my car because someone else. Rich person would have lots of these things done. Whereas if you washed your car, you'd be like a wash mccart today. You're outside, but oh, wow. About that way. Because I when I was in graduate school. And when I was teaching writing to undergraduates, one of the big things was do not ever under any circumstance every is passive voice, and academic writing. So unless unless like very specific circumstances. So to me, I guess I kinda was prejudiced against the past. So to me, it was like, good writing almost like a per Steve's dialect of writing is one that s shoes passive voice as much as possible. So to look at it from societal standpoint, where only the privileged have the opportunity to use it as much as a interesting. Yeah. But it's a specific part of passive voice for like you would also use, like regular regular passive. When you when you when the actions more important than the than the person like the purse was stolen or when you don't know for or the cake was eaten. When you don't know who did when it would just wasn't that important or renew didn't want to call someone out, because you don't want them released face but yeah, but causative passive was really funny to me because I was just like man, I do use this, but not a whole lot because I was a broken English teacher. No coma hair nails done. No. I have my car wash no car still taking the subway like. Let's go back in time. So you liked writing. You didn't like your handwriting. What did you like about writing? And what did you write is a thing that I really remember the thing that really sticks out? And I to, to this day I consider this to be my crowning. Achievement of my high school years is soft more English my bird out early and sophomore English class. I wrote a parody of the raven called the Rapa where I just took I just copied and pasted at growl imposed the raven into a word. Perfect document we're probably on WordPerfect one point at that's running dos or something. That's probably factually incorrect. And I tried to change it as little as possible trait changes few words and fat to change the structure, change the structure as little as possible to change it to being about a guy who moved to the ghetto and a rapper barges into his apartment and apparently hiding from the police or something, and then I remember it being really fun at the beginning because the ARC's could lineup and a good way with him and get to the end of the raven where the surrealism sort of takes over and it fades to blurry blurring of insanity. Well as it incredibly concise way of saying, nothing it became really impossible to do because it works when it's a raven, who's a metaphor for death. It does not work if there's an actual rap artists sitting in your house. Sort of like into the future. So that was that was a bit of a challenge, but I really enjoy doing that. And that's some my English teacher it out to the class 'cause I might angle teacher with my church and so small town, Texas. And so I I thought it was great hitter with possible. I enjoyed creating something unexpected and creating experiences because we all everyone here at raven everyone's kind of bored with it, because that's, that's what you do when you're a kid in school. Your player teacher tells you to rent tells you to read that, that, that's the status quo. And so I was able to take that and sort of create an unexpected experience out of that. And I really really enjoyed doing that. I think writing was the easiest way for me to do that. I was not good at improvising. Even I have, like, I haven't music degree, I do not improvise. Well, I was not good at improvising. Confrontations. That was not good at finding things to talk about. I would not I think have been able to create that sort of unexpected experience for people if I had to do it on the fly when I was writing, I think about it, and find something cool and put it there. Like a sculpture and then make the thing and then it existed outside of me. And people would think on all cool. Like you're you did this thing that's really cool. But it's like yeah. You didn't see the hours where I did it bad. You only saw the one I let you see which is the one time. I did it good. That raining so much. Yeah. No, I was probably the shi'as st- the most soft spoken the most self conscious human being until I met twenties. Probably now up very well there. What relying up very? Well. Yeah. Yeah. And it was only after I moved thousands of miles away from every movie eight me as a person. Yeah. Yeah. I'm familiar that. I was like, okay. And even then I still wrote a lot more than I talked. I was still much more of an observer in a creator and an editor of my ideas for that reason. Yeah. Some that every very meaningful deep friendships that I've had today. There has been some period extended period in that friendship where we corresponded over Email. Yeah, and I had a girlfriend in college who just after I met her. I went on a trip and I had written lots of long long long long blogs on that trip. And she had read them in that kind of sparked interest in me and I was already interested her. And then after the course of our relationship close to the point where relationship had run its course. She asked me, do you think which one do you think is the closer to the real you the one who writes for the one he talks like, do you think you're smoking communication is more genuine or you're in communications more genuine and that was right? Like, look at your face looks wretched. No, I think that the question occurred to her because she felt that there was a huge difference between what I write and what I say is right. Oh my God. You people think there it's supposed to be the same. I think that. I don't know. Maybe she did. I mean this, this was years and years and years ago. But I think that what that really drove home for me is. Oh, wow. I re- must really present very differently because everyone writes different than they talk. But if it's become difficult for this person who knows me so well to piece these two things together, the feels like it's coming from two completely different places then maybe I really am approaching writing in a very different way that I'm approaching speaking. And that was back when that was early twenties for me. So that was before I really feel like I became as a socially competent, is that a is that too self-effacing the similar to what you said before I felt like I really became able to walk into a room and it sort of express myself and meet people and, and not have that sort of social geeky does that make it is not a bad thing. Hasn't the had the social awkwardness sort of preventing me from interacting, an in providence, where he way with other human beings. I'm still working on it. How would I give you a teaser learning a second language helped? Okay. Good. Well, I know I'm fine one on one now like I used to be more awkward one on one than the group, especially because I used to use a lot of liquid courage when I was in my twenties and early thirties, also notice alcohol and then just I'd be able to talk to anyone anywhere any group any smoker. Big fine. One on one, I learned, I'm cool. I'm good. I can do that. But groups small groups, especially like small dinner groups. I'm told total, complete shit. I part of it is I like to listen more than speak when it comes to that. And then I realized that, that might seem timid and on my good, no, I'm not timid on just curious. I know what I would say I don't know what you would say. I'm much more interested in what you would say, I'm kind of working on the small group experience now that there's never there's never a there. Yeah. This is this is this is sort of a tangent, but it's connected and I've mentioned Doug as the dragons. That's one of the reasons I started doing it last year. And that's one of the reasons why because it's a game that forces you to sit in a small group and interact, and an intense way for hours. And you have to be very sensitive to the way, other people react, you sort of sense what they want what they're trying to do. And if especially if you're the game master, you're the one controlling the game you have to be very conscious of what all your players think what they know what they remember what they forgot what they want and make them happy. We'll make them unhappy what would make them have fun. What makes him I have fun? And it's it's like a crash course for interacting in that task. I'm good. Just social situations where you just go when you're just supposed to talk to people totally complete ships percent, that is the one air. Area that I get nervous in. Here's the secret. Yeah. There's never not a task. What if you're, if you're in a small group, even in a social situation, the task is to have a good time. The task is to meet people. There's always a task, there's never there's, there's never a task, and it sounds cheap. Yeah, it sounds like I've commercialized the entire social experience, but there, there's really not though, right? It's not like that. There's because there always is something that people want out of that experience it wouldn't be there. There's always something that people want to happen something they don't want to. They want to enjoy talking to people, they don't want to feel awkward. So there's always a task, there's always a goal that you can find even if there's no external goal where someone says your small group has five minutes to discover the answer to this riddle there, the riddle is always, how do we enjoy talking talking to each other big? So okay, you wrote a lot, did you read a lot as a kid. I did, and I got out of it recently by recently, I mean, pretty much after I moved to China. I re- very recently as in two thousand nineteen and we are now in the third month of this year, four third. Yeah. I have I've read twelve novels so far this year. I'm so I've really got back into big way. But when I was a kid, I would read for fun a lot. Do you remember your first library experience? I don't remember my first library experience. I remember a library experience, where I've read his dark materials trilogy by Philip Pullman. I read a lot of Phil books. I read. Line, which and the wardrobe, of course I read a lot of like young young readers fantasy books. And I remember one time I was in a library we used to go relatively frequently and I saw fantasy book that looked Kuwata anything about it. And so, I just sort of plucked it off the shelf, and it was real big mom seemed sort of skeptical that I would have chosen that book, and that was the first time I learned that all not all fantasy books written for young readers. It was it was. I don't even remember. I guess I thought the picture on the cover looks cool, but it was there is lots of big words, and that was the author doesn't hold your hand and walk rocky three things in a realist way. There was a lot more disconnected stuff. Or maybe, maybe you'd figure it out half the book and then the beginning of the book would make sense. It was. I mean, I that's I think the only library experience for my younger years that really sticks out to me, because I don't think that I had got a lot of books from the library. Our family was was well off enough that my parents were well, educated enough that they valued reading and education in a big way and they were willing to spend money that they had on that sense to spend more time in a bookstore than a library. Yeah. One of my parents rules was that one of the things they will always buy is books. They're always going to buy clothes, and I was going to buy a little chocolates. But if there's a book that you wanna read, they will purchase it for you. That was that was the one purchasing rule that we have when we were gets wet languages were going on around. You said you're from Texas. I imagined Spanish what's around you? Oh, initials around, so sorry, what languages were around you going up? That was probably it. I remember we had a family physician Dr. Dr Sudi we called him. I think his name was knife on Ceuta verse that sounds like a medicine so they'd be my brain. My brain is pretty good. You could have been, but we call him doctor Sudi think he was. This is super embarrassing. I think he was Vietnamese. And so he was the guy who would speak broken English. He was my by my broken English experience. When I was a kid. How do you owe from as young as I can't remember was USA family physician? There's a there's a really easy thing that happens, and I see ex-pats or immigrants in China doing this Chinese people all the time, and I see people doing this to foreigners all the time. If someone speaks your language in a broken way, the reflex is to judge them as you would judge someone who was born where you were born. So if I the reflexive hear someone speaking, broken English is, and I think most people can flip the switch in their brain, Royal, this is not true. But your first reflex is this person's, an idiot, otherwise, they could speak, well, but because Dr Sudi was a doctor that assumption was right out from the beginning. I never thought about that before. But ever ever since I was a kid, I never really thought that not speaking English. Well was a bad thing. And I'm from the deep south, there's so there's a lot of people who do feel that he was like all your in America speak English, like no I've known English teachers who treated Stu, very intelligent, students even professional adult students kind of conduct. Sending. No I'm being too nice condescending. Sued that their language level was intelligence level, and I actually pull not it had any sort of management, a thirty over them or anything. But I pulled a number of people aside over the years was like, look, this person is a person, I and they're speaking to you, in their second language, and a lot of these teachers were monolingual English speakers now is, like, how about, you have a conversation in their language, and see how intelligent use sound and I did it in nicer way than that. But it bugged me people were judging their second, or sometimes third, and fourth language of this person. Yeah. And yeah, because it's not an indication of their intelligence at all. It's an indication of their language level, are sincerely doubt that anyone who spent a considerable amount of time earnestly trying to learn a language would judge someone or. There important. Yeah. Because it gives you that flexibility. And that sympathy when you come across someone who's who where you where to navigate and to communicate with them, you have to speak in a language that either is uncomfortable for you or for them. And then you're like, you know, you're a decent person to them instead of an idiot. I gotta soap opted for this. I think so. I think so. I think so. Boxes are good for podcasting because people who believe in you were like. Yeah. Like scribes versus awesome. And the people who don't agree with you were like I'm still going to comment on this, because I think it's bad press. I don't know if that's in the Lakers learning, I don't know. I don't know what. No, no. I don't know if there's peace Bill listening. If you are pleased you start a fight with me. I want to hear what you have to fight. Let's bring is there anything else language related from your childhood that sticks out to you don't think so my dad never left the USA once in his life, he passed away about four five years ago. Wow. I really should know specifically how many years ago that way. Let's say five years ago. Okay. That's. My mom lived all over. Is my, my grandfather my grandfather went mom's side was geophysicist for shell. So he was all over the world looking for oil from. So she had been to lots of different countries since she was against my mom. And my dad are kind of on opposite sides of the spectrum in terms of exposure to two other languages. But we I grew up in small town Marshall, Texas twenty five thousand people we have like one Chinese foreign exchange student who never talked to anybody because no one ever talked to him. And I it never occurred to me to try to go up in the strike. Conversation was this kid who just can't I saw a round sometimes. There are some people who spoke Spanish at home. So the English was not that good. Did you speak multiple languages? She did not. She used to she. Learnt a little bit of Spanish, and she loves to tell a story of she was at a party in Mexico, one time, and someone offered her some, some canapes, if you will some. And she wanted to say in Spanish, and I totally understand this. If you just said, oh, no. Thank you, in English that would have been fine, everyone would know what she's talking about. But she wanted she wanted to go the extra mile. And she wanted to say, I'm not hungry at, in Spanish, that's I don't have hunger, nothing but she said, don't tangle Albany, which means I don't have a man. Sorry, I told that story mom allocate show, this link with you. I think the guy got it. I don't remember how she said the guy reacted. But she didn't marry that guy. Anyway. So. I don't know. Maybe that's how they met. Maybe they've been lying to me the whole time I went to. I went to Austria when I was in college, I went there for for a month for like a summer, study abroad, sort of thing, and we had a German class every morning, which I really enjoyed getting into the grammar of it, because I felt able to see CCC people who have the same interests like to look to their capability in that interest, as virtue, I really think I light learning German there because I was better at it at a lot of the other people. Now, I don't speak any German now so clearly didn't stick. But when we were talking about grammar in, like this is how a German sentence, six together, which, I don't remember any of at this point, but as I recall German grammar can be very complex. You can have phrases. I don't resolve until you've had several intersection phrases in the middle of it, but I was able to sort of click onto that and hatch onto that and make that happen. And so I really enjoyed that. I remember once I, I went to the opera and I, I studied all day. To try to get my pronunciation really good on asking where the student tickets and si- walk up to this woman, and who's has a name tag, asking where the student tickets. And she seemed a laid it because some clearly tourists but I'm clearly making an effort and apparently and every other country, except for America when someone in France when someone makes an effort to speak, your language that's exciting to you, and you feel good about that Americans and French, not so good about that. And so she very happily chattered away in German, telling me where the student tickets were, and I had no idea this shrugged. And then she said in very good English. Oh, they're just over there. It also when I was in Australia's walking down the street and this guy stops me and tries to hand me a flyer in talks to me in German. I didn't get any of it. So I said, I'm sorry. I don't speak in German. I said, I'm sorry. I don't speak German and he replied in pretty good English that wasn't German. That was Bavarian. It's like oh, there is some deep water here that I don't understand. Yeah. So I think that was the first time that I really sort of me, he come across. Oh, goodness, in China, all the time different regional dialects. The way that connect with regional identity. Those kind of my first taste of that, because in the beginning, you didn't mention German is one of your languages. Why don't speak any German anymore? I are in German for that one month, and I don't speak any German anymore. Do you really did them? I took him for two years in high school, and I barely I can read some of it because language. Yeah. Some some particles some articles look the same, but I didn't know what cases were in highschool. Apparently, I, I don't think she explicitly taught that I it was so boring. Honestly, it was such a boring. Starting language learning at for teenagers. And in the US is just insane. Could you could you pick a crazy or time to start something really difficult? I mean teenagers have so much going on. I honestly believe that if they are in a good environment for it. They can learn it. But being in highschool where the that forty five for us. It was Forty-five minutes that you have that Spanish class. That's the only time all day that you're going to be involved in Spanish at all. You're not going to get anything from that the nothing. That's gonna last anyway. Yeah. No one good environment. You can probably learn at any stage, I think about state in Australia for a year. I'd speak passable basic German, I probably would've picked it up faster and I picked up Chinese. Yeah. Well, there's a lot more layers, speaking of which let's switch to that. Like an ogre or an onion. What if you could transform your next game night into an unforgettable language, learning experience? Hi, my name is Matthew Boyle, founder of language card games and friend of Stephanie, Fujio, and changing scripts, I'm here today with a special offer during the month of may, you can apply the coupon code changing scripts, when you check out at language card games dot com to save on any of our games since two thousand sixteen. We have been providing innovative products to language gamers, and now we call you to join us at the table learning languages as a big deal. And we want to give you a hand that's why we've created games for everyone suitable for beginning an expert language, learners young and old. What's more, we provide free shipping to any location worldwide. So if you're looking for something to take your study sessions classes or game nights to the next level, this is it. Thank you so much for tuning into today's episode of changing scripts enjoy the rest of the show and later stopped by to see us at language card games dot com. How gamers learn languages? For the listeners. I met Josh. Months ago. Yeah. And we met in person a few weeks ago. Sorry, I met him on. We chat, which is basically, the Facebook of China, I saw you from across podcast and go, yeah. And we almost met that day, but I had to go because I always over plan things, and then we met in person a couple of weeks ago, and he started to talk about learning Chinese for a second. And I actually stopped him which I never do because I like the stuff and I was like save it for the podcast so done. Oh, no. The time has come on his come before you go into depth on any of it. Can you give us a brief overview of your learning strategy wish I had a learning strategy. Probably a lot simpler. So the overall process was, when I first got here, I had to graduate school for I came here. So I this was the first part of my life that I could remember where I was not going to classes regularly and learning something. And so I had this compulsion, I had this fiscal compulsion through, like if I'm not. Learning something my life is meaningless than I am a piece of trash and jump from a bridge, please, though. That was that was that was the neurosis that I carried with me. Chinese. Chinese and I, I like to say that I'm self taught, but at the beginning, I absolutely was not if I counted up all the Chinese lessons that I took, and never going to class and Chinese class, but I, I did have one point, my company gave me someone who's supposed to teach. Me Chinese at one point a couple points I found friends who I hired. He's Chinese, but I don't think I had more than three lessons with the same person. I don't think I had more than twelve or thirteen lessons overall, but those lessons were crucial for getting the very, very basics of Chinese the fundamental conceptual differences, in terms of what are the towns? What are they sound like what's that whole deal because that's I want to sit use lot of profanity. That's still just a whole can of worms. Yeah. And this is something that people try to talk me down from. But I insist that learning how to write the characteristics crucial, but there's a stroke order to the characters and that to me is not just about this sort of elitist. Oh, you wrote that character correctly, but you wrote it in the wrong order. So you're a plaid. Seen. Somebody is writing where it was written in the wrong order, and it stopped you from understanding what it was. I don't think I have butts would a Chinese person rights when actually literate person uses a pen or a pencil to write something if you don't know the stroke order, it is, illegible, if they write quickly, because just like the English version of cursive, cursive is just print written quickly because you don't waste time picking up your pin. You're making a face. I want to give the listeners she gave them very skeptical. The jaw was three inches to the left of the face is restricted. There's a lot more to the script. I was taught in elementary school, and we actually add ham rate in classes, east coast. I'm sure we have a lot more to it than than just writing it quickly for what the script, I learned when I was child. So that was my face. I think I think. I'm not a his language a story, and so I might be off in this. But I think that the difference between script imprint is that print is the, the platonic ideal of what each character, what each letter is. And spit, script is what happens when you write it quickly. And of course, other conventions were developed around script, and then suddenly there was right, wait around way. But generally speaking, if you want to write quickly, you cannot be picking up the pen after every letter, it's more fluid if he does that way. So have you ever seen a Chinese person's handwriting and been completely unable to understand what it says this is not distinct just to handwriting for me? There's a lot of characters. I don't know. We'll right there has been actually last week. There was assigned downstairs in my apartment, building a we're in the living room right now. Which is why I'm saying that listener. So rush living room. Thank you Shanghai on the world's it's very, it's highly inaccurate, I've been told it's very inaccurately. It looks quite nice. We just what's more important. So downstate. Last week. There was a sign that was written. It almost looked like in marker. But it was a very quickly written poster that somebody wrote about something annoying that somebody else in the building did. I took a picture and send it to a friend who was like, normally, don't like asking this. But what the hell does say because it was a very weird situation with dead animal next to it all kinds of stuff, very strange. It was very, very strange. He sent me the characters and the pinion and then described what it said. And I recognize the characters obviously the pinion, but I could not recognize a lot of them in the script. It was so thick and some of them together and it was obviously it was very very very quickly. Yeah. But just yeah, it was a weird if you write the reason why Chinese people understand the handwriting. I I'm a translator now. So I understand a lot of characters not all of them. It's important to note as a translator I keep a dictionary next to me all the time. So don't feel bad, if you have to look at your dictionary. Hi, I'm a professional translator. I have go on my phone. Use it all the time, the stroke order is crucial frontiersman jumping way back to talking about this in the first place. One is Chinese, you'll can only read other people's handwriting because they know the stroke order. So they know that if you right quick. These are going to bring together and then that's going to look like law. What gets what goes missing script apparently? Yeah. What goes missing? And what gets changed in what way and for me, stroke orders, absolutely crucial for learning the language because it allows me to hold the character in my mind. It adds another. I this is this might be a personal oddity almost had waited he. But that's not a word of personal oddity in that if it is now it's an a podcast. So it has to be true, if they're. If there are multiple layers of information to a thing, it's easier for me to remember, for example, if, if there's just a picture of something about, I remember, if there's a picture and a sound, there's more information for me to grab onto picture sound in a smell it gets the more rich it is more easy. It is, which is actually the word easier to grab onto this for someone who has not learn Chinese every character looks like a unique set of impenetrable, scribbles. But when you learn Chinese for awhile, you understand that, there are a lot of building blocks that go into characters, I there, there's the different like sometimes a character could be one character be could be a combination of different characters stuck together in a specific. Order there is specific parts of characters that get reused and other characters there are some characters that when they become a part of another character. They get changed in a certain way to become part of a different character. And that's a whole shit ton of random ass. Whatever I'm giving you live profanity right now, if you don't speak Chinese, and you're listening to me. Say this your thing all that sounds impossible in weird and too much. And it kind of is, but for me learning how to write the characters and Ryan them over and over and over again and getting the correct stroke. Order allowed me to sort of form them in my mind and hang onto them better. I I'm of the opinion that nothing is hard. It says something's take longer than others. And if you can spend the time doing it, then you can get it. And adding the stroke order learned the characters gave me a structure that allowed me to keep trying to write characters. I'm way off topic. By the way, you asked me what, what you're talking about Mandarin Chinese? That is the point. My process was, I had a few lessons where they taught me the basics of pronunciation, the basics of the stroke order, and how characters basically put together. And then I bought a stack of textbooks starting from beginner to intermediate. Out. She's whatever I could find where they are non HA k at the time. I did not know what K was. I have not taken the where. And where were you in? Hong Joe at this point though. I was in Guangzhou. Oh. Here's the rundown. Yeah. Thanks. Lot of those centers are actually in the US. So that would be southern China. Sorry. That's all I introduce opium wars. You know that's that's that area. Yeah. I so in two thousand ten January tenth two thousand ten that's my brother's birthday my gift to him was by. They have to deal with me any more attention to that was not the birthday present I lived there for two and a half years. So in the summer of two thousand twelve I moved to Heiko, which is the capital of Hainan island. I'll Lau, which is China's Hawaii. They say. So when I was in Guangzhou, while I was teaching English as a stereotypical looked down upon English teacher with no real, relevant heating experience. No education. Giant field, whether people want to admit it or not. I'm sure your listeners by now familiar with the way that most foreigners kind of looked down on unqualified for teachers. I'm not sure it's just the foreigners. It looked down on. I d you're absolutely right. Some locals will look down on them and still be willing to pay lots of money to have them teach their kids with some native English. Hopefully, so I did that for the first year and a half years. And that was the time where I was really looking at books and copying characters for hours. I would go teach my classes, sometimes six classes, a day back to back. Oh my God. And then sit in my office until just doing the Chinese stuff in writing characters over and over again until the last subway train at rush out and guide last subway train, and go home, but that was only in fits in spurts. So before the interview started before we turn the Mike, so you're talking about how the study like a fiend for a while. But you haven't really recently, and I asked you, are you recording. Because if so, I'm going to going to this. I could not maintain that level of intensity for more than a few weeks to a couple of months. But when I got on that train it was very productive. And when I got off that train I could still use what I had learned in my everyday life. I could still learn a couple of characters here couple of characters there. Oh, this person used to profanity now. I know that one and after two and a half years of doing that. I finally was able to trick someone into thinking I spoke Chinese well enough to take a Chinese job and Heiko. That was a crazy job. Not for one year 'cause I was making. I love them. I wish that this is a YouTube video. There is actually now that you say that there is an accompanying, this is a pod tube. It's podcast YouTube. But usually, unfortunately, the videos are just me. About the difficulties of learning language in general Mandarin Chinese specifically, I do plugs, whenever I can just do if you don't who will. Thanks. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding anyway. So while you were talking about the characters the characters are what brought me in this time starting two years ago, I actually to go back even further moved to the first place that really, really other than just Chinatowns used the language in a big big way. And that was Taiwan in two thousand and three the traditional characters the teaching methods may hiring my neighbor as a tutor, and her just giving me pages of text. Just with tons of sentences with no building blocks. It was just so overwhelming. Like I've tried to three times before this to do it. But this time when we came back, I just left a PHD program. So it's like our lives are language kind of just. Just lifted program wonderful experience, but not where I wanted to go long term, and it's like a seven year commitments, I'm like, no. But I needed something to do. I need a project so learning Mandarin. Again, seemed to work in the characters instead of targeting me like calling me in what is happening right now. What the hell I need a project? Let's go. And so writing them, I found. Okay to be fair, tracing them on an app was really for me. What, what? Oh, I don't I no longer. There's entire videos. This is the whole the whole other can of worms put up put it down. And I'll send it to you probably find it. You would trace it with your finger. It's sometimes will give you the template. Sometimes they wouldn't was a game like it would have points a few traced like quick enough. Basically die. If you do it long enough support of gamification, and it was very, very meditative. I would do it in between stuff when I was on the metro and all this kind of stuff and it, I've stopped doing it since then. But I really liked that part of it. And I think the layers, although it was annoying, I have the layer the layers of the sound also known as the penguin, which is also in the Roman alphabet and then the characters, and then the meaning and then the like and then adding on the grammatical stuff later like having those layers was really annoying initially, because I've only tried to learn romance like which is before this. However, having those layers, I think is one of the things that has even though I can't speak for shit right now. My vocabulary is much bigger in Chinese than it's ever been in any other attempted a second language. And I think the visual -ness of the characters, you're just made me realize, like five minutes ago is the thing that probably did that because there's the texture of. Of the different parts of it. That was really hard to learn. That is not leaving even though I've been. The language threatening for over a month. Now I still can read the characters that I can read, and I can still hear some things as I'm walking around. And I hear people say things they haven't left, and I think it's that the depth and the complexity of the language that is probably what's doing it, because it's so multi sensory in a way, and it's so different from English. Spanish, and German, wait. Germans not romance languages at notes. Not sh tell me we're thinking nucleus. I don't think English is is. But I feel like I didn't learn English it just kind of happened. Okay. Any of the previous languages were too similar to English, and I think that interfered for me, where's Chinese fields, so intensely different into so many layers that I think that's why it's kind of sticking a little bit. That's fascinating. The one that you said that I just reiterated it and said, yes, me, too. That entire giant thing. I just went into is basically me saying, I had that experience because I haven't thought about it that way. I haven't thought about Chinese is so different, and that's why it sticks for me. I it's difficult for me to compare my Chinese leading language learning experience to my Spanish language learning experience, because I was not an Hispanic environment, whereas I am going to environment now and that has really really for me shaped how it all went down, and how is able to do it. And what my motivations were, and what my reward system was when like from when you started learning Chinese to win you could understand what was happening around you to any degree, how long, do you think that took? Oh, heavens. I mean to any degree probably about a year. Thank you. Because a lot of people say, just go in the environment, and you'll learn. Anecdote only VERA people whose brains can do that. Anecdotally, but I don't think it's necessarily linguistic I think there are people who are very sensitive to tone, very sensitive to matters of expression, and body language. I've had friends who can't speak Chinese for shit and for me on what someone else meant this is, especially when I was in Guangzhou, I had just started learning and I could kind of understand a lot of times in taxis. Taxis, have played such an important part of my experience. There have been times where I will be talking to the driver, and I would be thinking about putting words together making sentences and he would talk back to me is almost always male taxi driver. And I would be trying to parse what he was saying, and I would miss them formation, that my friend who could not by his own words, could not learn Chinese, he would inform me about what the taxi driver is trying to tell me because he was tuned into how people communicate. So I think when you're talking about a very, very, very basic level, communication. I think a lot of people can tune into that and sort of an ailing or ailing, which is not entirely correct. But not, not a sort of a lexical way that is still somewhat linguistic. But for me, it took me about a year before I was really like, okay I can express things, and I can sort of understand what other people are throwing at me. But I've been going through different levels of that up and up and up enough and ever since then, like my second year, I would up another level the one that to Heiko they had me doing telemarketing, which was to Chinese people, which was just gives you a. A frame of mind because you a frame of reference for how dumb these people really were running this company, but I'm not. I mean, if they were smart, they wouldn't have hired me. Four the foreign factor. They did. But the thing was they were never smart enough to make the habit. Okay. It was a wedding company and were trying to do a destination wedding location on high knocks China's Hawaii, and there was no that had never really taken off, which is weird because it really should have. I think the market, which is dominated by the hotels. And so there were no independent companies were able to do that. And the idea was we're going to pull in not only Chinese people, we're going to Russians. We're going to pull pulling people from this hemisphere, who want to tropical wedding met, so they hired a foreigner. I don't speak Russian. These are not intelligent people is what I'm telling you. And so they had they had me in the office, and they didn't know what to do with me. And so they are starting. They were trying to do this conference. I, I don't mean this. I don't mean to say, Chinese people are it businesses isn't a racist sort of thing. But like people talk about Silicon Valley. They talk about ways that Silicon Valley entrepreneurs are bad things, and the misconceptions they have there's a whole other set of misconceptions that Chinese entrepreneurs have so not saying that Chinese people are bad at business. I'm not saying all Chinese people have these mic exceptions. I mean, when Chinese people are bad at business. This is generally, how they are bad business. That's a whole other topic to have. But I was the guy in the back saying you realize this conference isn't going to happen. Right. And you realize this doesn't have a chance. Okay. No, no. That's fine. But they still had us calling people. Oliver to business owner start to get them become at this conference and I had nothing else to do so they will give me a list of people names and phone numbers. I'll be calling them in Chinese and asking them. I, I couldn't even order a sandwich, not to this point. Bite people to come to this conference. And that was a whole other level of language learning experience for me. And I, I was there for about a year before they realized, oh, this guy isn't helping us at all. They had to hire some consultants as trying their business around and like I don't never one was. Why are you paying this guy get him out of here? But I've been on a Chinese TV show. China's dating show at that point. And a company in Beijing had seen me on the show, and they sent me emails saying, oh, well, we need someone who can speak English and Chinese by my Chinese went got a lot better. Like you teach a baby to swim by throwing it in the water that they can just do it. Let's think or swim sort of thing Heiko that stupid company. Whereas Chinese telemarketer was definitely my singer, slim alert for Chinese where I just I just had to do it. There was no excuse. I when I was in Guangzhou. It'd be like, oh, I don't want to speech, Saddam's, gonna handle foreign friends and Heiko. I didn't really have any inference I made a couple of eventually I had. Any notes as you were talking to people and kind of learning language by sinking swimming. Did you make any notes or did you record anything? Listen to it later. Like did you do it didn't listen to it later. I've recorded. I think starting to Guangzhou I started recording. All my taxi rights, I've been thinking about doing that hours and hours and hours over the last, I think six or seven years, it's actually recordings because right? Because they'll ask the same questions and I tell China's people like oh, taxi drivers. Frequently asked me about the size of my penis, and they don't believe me. So I started. Oh, yeah. Much more in Guangzhou than since I moved north, do they ask each other questions? Fuck it Fino apparently not. Because and this as a foreigner in China, you existence sort of extra space, where people don't necessarily feel as bound by their Chinese people often think of their own culture has being very restrictive but we're not part of that. So if they're feel restricted in any way they feel many people feel that someone talking to us when I first moved to Taiwan in two thousand three every single female, I met that was teenager in older sex in the city, the TV show is very popular. And they would start out by talking about sex in the city and asked me about my sex life, no matter if I met them five minutes before or a few months before, well, obviously I'm talking about meeting them. So anyway, no matter how how much time into the conversation it was, and I was like, whoa, okay, look, I'm a very open person, and I'm all about culturally sharing stuff. But I know if I share anything about my sex life, you're never going to precipitate a write up to, you might know someone I know. And it's just. I know the conservative view. And as soon as I tell you something, you're going to judge me. And I'm like this is just slippery as all hell. Wow. But yeah, it's the same kind of thing I can ask it foreigner this now you can but should you? Oh, use the word open, which is something that comes up a lot changed. We'll tell me some open or, or is, is it really is opening America's I say or is in China. We're not very open. And that's not a word that we use in that way, the fact that you even use the word open. I was kind of, like half code switching, you know, that I've been in China for a while. I wouldn't use that word in the states to mean that. Yeah. I don't even know at this point. Yeah. I, I can't I often joke about how I speak, four languages people. Less common question is must be Chinese person. It's all how many languages do you speak? I always say four I speak in Chinese. I speaking when Joe went don't shooting well, hitting Churchill when I speak English Chinese Chinese style English English style Chinese, so. Oh my God. Yeah. So that using open in that way is definitely Chinese-style English. That's the word that exists here. Well, I, I taught Chinese teenagers last time when we were in engineering eight years ago, and now I don't teach anymore, but I am testing about that age group. And I do find that a lot of their Chinese English comes into my usage. It's part of the cringe factor in editing. Is I realized that seeped in and Mike? Job being evil. Learning you were learning on the job. Yes, they fired you after you got competent to doing the job. It sounds like well it never got competent doing the job. They've never came up with a good job for me to do. But the one thing they did for me was the boss in an effort to promote the new company, she encouraged me to sign up for a dating show, which I refused refused refused. And finally, at one point, we are off on a business trip looking for could locations and she asked me, and just stop the conversation. I said, sure, I'll think about it when I get back. Maybe I'll sign up and so she pulls out her cell phone and calls, her assistant, whose back in Heiko and says, you know, find the photocopy of that guy's passport and go on the website and signed him up. He agreed to do it. So I signed me up, and then they called me for an interview, and that eventually ended up going on the show after the show a company in Beijing. Surprisingly, reputable, BT, L marketing company, calls me up and says, hey, we're looking for someone who doesn't mind getting on stage and speaking in English and Chinese and can present themselves. Well, and has a good sense of humor. We have some foreign clients that we want to up our game with so how about job interview. And at the time I thought, I'll come on what kind of company recruits, dating. Shows that's obscene, that's absurd free trip to Beijing. So I went to Beijing and good company. I worked there for a year, and then I got poached by one of their competitors. I stay there for three years, and that was the time when I really really, really up to my Chinese game because when I got to Beijing, I could still do a very limited amount of stuff. But after I got there it was life in the fast lane because I was the only foreigner in the company I was wondering in either company when I started working for them in a couple of people could speak English, but not very well. And so fortunately at the first company, I didn't have a lot of responsibilities that is kind of wanted me to interface with one client and only sometimes so aside from that I was doing. Do you to work with only one client? But is there was only one client that had foreigners on their side interfacing with the agencies every other brand? I don't even know if I can't talk about specific brand names. But every other brand had a largely Chinese marketing team only this one brand was still hiring foreigners for business interface nations but not for every project. So I was only needed part time for that. And so I spent most of my time either translating stuff for other departments, or just looking at my goddamn inbox and trying to figure out what the emails meant like you get an Email from HR, that's like, you know, seventeen paragraphs, and if, if I'm going to an American company in HR since me, Lebanon was in graduate school. And then the graduate student department would send me an Email, and say this, this semester, is regulations or whatever I wouldn't read that in what could cause why I might skim it. But you get those in Chinese and for me that's like as this month's textbook has just arrived on, let's all this stuff. And that re- that's really what I hit me. Because my Chinese learning had a spike when I first got here, that's sort of leveled off, and I have another spike when I got to Heiko and the leveled off, and then I got a huge sustained spike. When I went to Beijing. And that's when it really hit me necessity, is the mother of learning languages when I was in Guangzhou Mina that he was I felt like a rubbish human being. If I wasn't learning something I got to graduate school. I had a note prospects for myself. This is something I can latch onto base myself worth on. My progress in this one thing. And that was my that was the fuel, I was burning to literally work to the midnight hours to Chinese there when I got to hike, oh, it was a singer, sort of thing were, you know, if I don't want to get fired and be unemployed. To beijing? It was it was a similar thing. But when I was not in the crunch times very, very, very, very, very almost impossibly hard for me to open up a Chinese textbook and, and learned something, what is what I kind of wanted to talk about before we started the interview, which is the times when I cannot force myself to open a Chinese textbook are the times when I feel like I speaking of Chinese to do what I am faced with, well, if you are able to use it, why would you study it because then you can do more stuff with it? I, I, I can make more money now and more different ways than I could five years ago for a lot of reasons and prime among them is that my Chinese is lot better. Yeah. If my Chinese were better than it is. Now I could be making more money but I'm making enough money. There's no necessity there. That's the trick is because if I had tripped into a job where I needed to know, more Chinese to execute the duties that were presented to me immediately. I would have more motivation to do it. I have Chinese textbooks in my house right now that I have not read through what textbooks, I don't remember the name to be honest about years ago. What are they like reading based is are there, actually still grammatical exercises at the level that you're listening all both? Okay. But I haven't looked at them in so long. I'm not sure that I would here's the thing. Sorry. Yes. But I think that you there, there's a way to use them is beneficial. I don't force myself to do every single line text book. And I think if, if someone force me to do that, I would be wasting a lot of time. But language learning is not like a sea level. It's not like when you're starting goes up, then everything is uniformly better. There are probably language points in grammatical points in textbooks that I am not consciously aware of that. If someone's spoke to me, using them, I would understand them, but I would never produce that language, and my Chinese will be better if I could produce that language, but because I've sort of learned in a self taught tacked on sort of way, based on the necessity. I mean there are points in my life where I could talk about event marketing and Chinese, and I couldn't talk about politics and Chinese talk about event marketing in Chinese, and I could not talk about event marketing and English the happened to me very seriously, but very humorously in a couple of client meetings read like signing counter. I was I was describing the map of, of a venue that we, we laid out signing counter here. But I could not think of the English word for signing counter is ten thousand high in Chinese because we only only only only only ever talked about that in Chinese right? So in the in the meeting with the client, sitting there, I was like, and this is the this thing. Sort of some sort of performance of St. clicked on me. And so I said in like a states whisper in Chinese. Schwa- which is how do you say, signing counter in Chinese and all the Chinese people in the room, just started laughing and then the, the foreigners looking at what's, what's going? One of the clients said signing county. Yes. Thank you. Sign county. Let's let's go back a bit. 'cause you mentioned going on a Chinese dating show. And then we completely glossed over that I was hoping you would. Talk about necessity. I mean, a lot of people learn Mandarin Chinese because they get into relationships with locals, so, so however far deep into this. Box that you've opened. Did you go on the show? I want all the show. Yeah. Okay. And that's how the patient, which is the most popular dating show. It's fallen off the populated recently. Popularity recently. But it is the quintessential Chinese dating show. What does that mean? What can you describe the setup of the show? Yeah. So there's twelve or sixteen or eighteen or twenty something women up on a stage with a pedestal a lot. It's a lot and each have a button. And if they hit the button, it means I've lost interest in this man. The men come on one by one and they kind of have to introduce themselves, and there's three short videos that they shoot about your life. They come to where you move. And they shoot short video about you. So you you walk on. You introduce yourself issue video the women ask questions, based on the video, another video that's questions based on that she'll video that's based on that at any point during this process. If a woman loses interest in you, they hit they hit the button, and the, their pedestal turns red. And if you get all the way through the entire process with one or more women, still interested in you having not turned off their light, then you can choose one of them and you get like a vacation for two. No, actually, here's the trick. This is what I learned you get to -cations, same place that don't have to be at the same time. Why? That's interesting. So how did it go? There's actually two buttons on the pedestal. One one Princeton light off in one of them is called balden. It means like I'm locking them hundred percent for this guy. So all the women, but one turn their lights off, and one of them even said, like I said, as I walked on the say she turned out for light and the host asked can ask turn off your lights that. Oh, I'd start with academia, foreigner. And I think when I tell that story to Americans, a lot of them are like, what the fuck but for me I was used to it. Of course. That's how that's how it is how it is, is. It's not even a big deal. But one woman, the one who didn't turn off her light had given the hundred percent light. So it's kind of a weird thing, but I, I felt that she was quite strange. And the thing was the prize trip that you would get was to the island of high nine literally like a forty five minute drive from my apartment. So I felt no connection to that and afterwards, I by myself, which is googling yourself in China, right? By dude myself to see what people were saying about me, and there were lots of comments on my name. Yeah. In Chinese, but none of them were about me. They're all about that woman who apparently just goes all in for every foreigner who goes. Wow. Yeah. Go with her just for five, four five star hotel thing. Right. Forty-five minutes from my house because sorry. Yeah. Two separate vacations and again, feel free to not answer any of this. Have you ever dated local? Oh, yes. When you talked about how people learn to Chinese because they were in relationships. I have not had that experience at all. I'll start with someone else's experience. I have a friend who is married to a Chinese woman, and he came to China around the same time that I did his wife speaks, very good English. And I'm pretty sure the reason he can't speak Chinese is because he is married to a bilingual woman. So he does not have the necessity Chinese, what I I got here. I entered into a very ill advised relationship with a woman whose English was okay, but there's so much hidden behind linguistic and cultural barriers. And if I didn't speak any Mandarin, I had never lived in China before I was there for a couple of weeks before we got into this mess. So I was not literate in the ways that these not, not, not only not literate in the differences. I was not literate in the ways the differences pretend themselves and the fact that there were differences in different ways. And so it was sort of sort of a short-lived relationship that, like as soon as I got the tools to sort of see clearly what kind of relationship I was in a relationship with I think both of us started feel like oh, we fucked that up. We, we've is judged that we look for four weeks before you know what we were looking at and I don't think that, that really improve my language skills at all. I don't think that any other relationships, I've been in since I've been here have improved my language skills considerably. When I say that the Chinese people common reply that they get back is, oh, but will, like when you get into a fight or something, and you're sort of, shooting from the hip, like you're, you're not heightened state of emotion. That's when the language sort of fits together and comes out, which is true by. Hammond, a date you, why so they can fight making a real good at Chinese. That's not that's not a good selling point. Doesn't make a lot of sense. I should I should say that oftentimes people tell me that I should a Chinese woman to learn more Chinese, but am I? Given to men off. Right. It's very here. Yeah. Honest. Yeah. And yeah, isn't it weird? How that works? One way. I have met foreign women who also date locally, but it's like such a small percentage compared to the foreign Menlo date locally just specifically like that advice on goes one way, I've never heard, and it could be that I have not interacted with them very much. But I very rarely hear foreign Linden being told to date Chinese men so that they can learn Chinese, but something that is told to foreign men a lot. I've never heard that actually. And even in my YouTube channel, I have some locals rating in, in Chinese that I have to translate sometimes to understand, but they're writing in there and they've never ever said oh, you should date. Oh, but I am married. So that could be why that definitely could be. I don't get any of that side in time on it never happened. Either actually, I had I was trying to learn guitar for very, very short period of time. And I had a tar language exchange where he was going to teach me guitar local man about my age was going to teach me. Good hard. I was going to help him with his English, which was clearly already far ahead of anything that I knew in Mandarin. And we went out to eat after one of our sessions, and he got seriously harassed. It was not in a major. Well, it wasn't a major city population wise, but not mentality wise, in a major city, and he got massively harassed as we were eating because they assume that we were mowing romantically intertwined and, and I would be weakening, the gene pool kind of thing as well. And how I was and how foreign I was how old every single flow? You could imagine. It was sort of like a YouTube comment in real life. And thank goodness, it was in a language. I couldn't understand. But I got the tone and the stair. So I understood what was happening and I asked him because I was stupid, then to what was happening and he tried not to tell me and I was very pushy because I didn't understand how much face he was losing. Yeah, I was just it was off. But we didn't really continue to exchange much after that because I think I embarrassed him so much wanting to know. How much cultural literacy involves knowing what not to ask, is Nasser, people are from? And sometimes they'll say, oh, I'm from shadow. I like I say, I'm I'm from a little town in Texas called Marsh and Americans think that's very normal. But if someone in China tells you this, the state that are the province there from, but not the town that means they don't want to tell you, the town oftentimes, the reason is that they feel embarrassed for being from a small town. I used to push for that whole what town where is that close to Jintao, and people just wouldn't want to tell me if people say, they're from big cities went off big cities, and that's something, I've learned not to push. I think I think, asking where are you from is not as big of a deal, especially if you're a foreigner? So long as you don't push the answer. That's true. Yeah, that's true. But it's still be nice to just think of a different question. It's just like when they ask, you know, do you have do you have children, and why not oh, you're kinda wish you guys wouldn't push the why not, because I just really don't need to have that conversation. When I first meet someone that's an intimate answer. So if we don't have that, and I don't ask this. We'll be good. One of the things that I do this sort of combat those stock questions because as, as a foreigner here, you know, that we could ask the same questions over and over again the way combat that the way subvert that is to come up with ridiculous answers. Like when someone asks, are you married say, no any recommendations? Elephantiasis yea. My information. If some people ask me, like always, always always always people say, wow, your Chinese is really good. Am I replied has always good as yours and that sort of puts them off balance? So then they thought they knew how this interaction was going to go. You flip it around on them. That's something that I really enjoy it goes back to the very beginning, when I was talking about, I enjoyed writing because it allowed me to create surprise me experiences people because these interactions are are so formalized, and so almost stylized it allows me to know where the people are coming from it allows me to see everything coming in slow because it's almost like the first time I meet somewhere, no one's gonna save it for they say it, and so I have all these chicks for them. But it also means that when someone comes at me with a new angle, I am deeply impressed, a lot of the friends that I've made are people who have come out with non Senator questions or demean seem interested in questions. Even if someone's English is not super great. I'll be much more impressed by their communication, if they come at me from a new angle like, okay, you're you don't have as. Capillary you don't speak as well. Your accents, little bit hard understand. You don't really have a lot of grammar going. But you're comfortable enough with this language to give me something that you clearly made up on the spot with considered thought behind it. That's incredibly impressive to me. And that's one of the reasons you talked earlier about how you like to focus on fluency over correctness. I absolutely feel that way thousand percent because of my Chinese was fluid before it was correct. And I think people who focus too much on the correct. Never got to the fluid because they're kind of at odds with each other. I could not have fed you that line any better? Thank you for being my mouthpiece. Because it's yet still an part of my gripe with a language classroom as much as I love classrooms and being an being in a learning environment. Is that it seems to favor accuracy, overproduction slash fluency? And it drives me crazy because it's ninety nine percent of the time for communication purposes. Whether it's on paper or in person it's to communicate. And honestly, there's a lot of maneuvering back and forth, even between super Uber fluent, speakers and users of the language, even when you think you speaking, the same language, you're still, navigating what each other means. So passionate I knock over my microphone. That's what they were talking about is going to throw this in there, because this is this is a little compacting that we have one of the things that wrote about our notebook, which is kind of critique on how English talking. The book is Chinese is not gonna help if you against ups be by it. Some people who know Chinese listening, the book is utilize. Hopefully, he'll it's by it's by Jochen wa I told you, I'm Joshua by friend is hotel and the name was very similar coincidence. I had my name before I met him. Okay. One of the things we talked about, is the difference between the test taking mindset and the communicating mindset focusing on correctness over fluency is test. Taking mindset. That's only useful. If your success of your interaction with the language is judged entirely on correctness of grammar communicator, mindset is about fluency and clarity. You don't have to be correct to be clear. Not always this very true. So if you're if you're coming out language from testing Hugh mindset, it's like trying to learn how to ride a bike and never being allowed to wobble. Like you're only allow is like if you start to while we have to stop. Yeah. That's not a good way to learn to ride a bike. It's a good way to perhaps put on a show of writing a bike for someone very controlled circumstance where you have to go five meters without wobbling. You can do that better. Yeah. But if you want to ride four blocks down the street and buy some bread her out at right back with the same brand navy milk in your backpack, you can wobble. All you want this fine, as long as you don't fall. And that's the communicator mindset, just get it done. And after you become comfortable with it, then it's much easier for me to straighten out the wobbles just for me to try to do it without levels from the start. Yes. Yes. And yes. So, okay. Geographically, we've got you going from starting in grunge. Oh, right. Was already pretty far south. Yeah. They'd even further south starting to Guangzhou. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So you started then you went to haiku, and then Beijing, and then hung, Joe and then Changhong. Okay. So we have to talk about linguistic differences that you encountered, when you were talking to people in all these places because that is an interesting mix. And just for the listeners restarted south went to island, south went way, far north in, in the capitol, and then hung Joe is south again, but not as far south. Is it it's considered self? Literally, pretty much anywhere south of Nanjing. Yeah. People talk about it is being south. When is the biggest difference that you've noticed that? Okay. Let's stick to punahou, walk in all the areas in China that you have lived, what have you noticed being the biggest shift within Putin hall, which is the quote quit standard Mandarin Chinese factoid, literally, there's somebody science fiction, novels where like, oh, we speak, galactic common or always become. They don't call it English. They said we speak common poodle. Hot literally is common. That's the translation, there already is a place on earth, where people call their own language common. Yeah. It's a thing. Fun fact. Yeah. Learning mandarin. When I was in Guam, Joe and watch people that Chinese people are often, very put off by that, like, oh, you can't learn Mandarin Guangzhou. They have such a strong accent, and they have they speak Cantonese there. And it's true. You do hear a lot of Cantonese on the streets when can't hear people are together, it's impossible to get them. There are times where I'll be hanging out with three friends who are all Cantonese, and I could not get them to speak Mandarin, because just so natural for them to speak Cantonese in the school systems. Balili can't you have to be speaking in Mandarin, so that they had heaping that if someone from the north of their family moves to belong to it for work. The kid has to be able to go to school, and everyone in China should be able to speak Mandarin. So everyone does except for the really old people. They all speak it. But there is a bit of an accent. Sometimes the accident can make it hard to, to communicate a little bit. We'll my Mandarin was bad. It was not a problem. So you're saying there's a Cantonese accent on their on the manor. Very strongly to the point. Where sometimes can you imitate them? I'm putting you totally on the spot here. I'm going to call out what about friends? So when I was in Guam Joe, I couldn't really tell because my Chinese is very straight. So it wasn't an issue. But then I lived in Beijing. For awhile all over became a translator, blah, blah, blah. I'm now Chinese podcast. So when I go back to visit I hear people's accents for the first time, and it's incredible. How much they're accident informs my impression of them not. Like oh, you have this accident. So you're this kind of person, not that because Ardy know them, but you have this kind of accent. So this is how other people must see you like I have a friend who lived in Australia for years, she went to graduates school on Australia. She's very, very intelligent person, and we always spoken English her English is almost, an accented. She calls breakfast Brekke because she lived in Australia. Yeah. Never spoke to her in Mandarin. Because her English is always been better than mine. Enders, I went back last year to ball Joe and I was meeting a lot of friends and, and I saw her, and we spoken Mandarin for the first time and I was like, oh, my God like you would be chided, if he went to somewhere else. This her name is done. But she pronounces dunk. Okay. What does actually that's not her name is one of the names that he was considering taking 'cause he doesn't like her real name? But like certain sounds like that hard to deal with another example for. In the north, like this, the standard sort of twenty are why not like the like mum door becomes Mark Laban are on the end of it. Instead, they just don't. They can't really do that. In the south is not part of like how a lot of Americans can't roll. Their ours Limoges don't have our roles you have to kind of learn a lot of things can't really do that. And a lot of them are very worked up because. If there is no official place like everything officially do going to school, getting a job interview, you have to do it in Mandarin. Then the native language of the place will eventually die out because that means every time someone from that place. Mary someone else they almost certainly will not speak, the native dialect and the dialect will become more and more something that people only speak at home. And then it's just sort of get some further and further out, and I've met people who are just sort of enraged by that local people who are who are just sort of, I think, Cantonese, especially because they have such a rich culture, and they are very proud of their language. A lot of ancient Chinese poetry, no longer rhymes in Mandarin. But it does rhyme McKenzie's indicating that it is closer to a more traditional sort of Chinese demand because Mandarin is heavily influenced by the don't bay dialects the, the northeastern dialects from the Manchus who were not always considered to be Chinese. There were sinicized, which is the word, I fucking questions for you right now. 'cause you're the first person to bring that up and I. There's been talk around this topic, but we haven't actually fully addressed it before in the podcast. So, basically, the poodle while the Mandrake pronunciation is taken heavily from the, the men choose. Gotcha. Who were not? They were invaders when they first game that was the chain down and see the frontal and they were invaders at that time still pronunciation, and grammar and vocabulary or. I don't know probably. I mean, how could it not right? And they still. Okay. You bring up so many areas where I do not have knowledge in which is good. I am so humbled. Right now, Manchurian language from interior, which is a region, not a country. They're all question marks at the end of what I'm saying right now. Right. Okay. So what country what would be a part of China now? Right. That's the three northeastern states loans ceiling. All three of them. See lien. What is the third one? I'm going to look at a map of my phone Liaoning. Yeah. Leon fiddles young. Right. And they were at various. I'm not might Chinese imperial history is not a hundred percent. They were I at various times. Also subjugated to the Chinese empire. But it wasn't till the ching dynasty, that those ethnic groups came down to relate. I guess it's us. Now, now we're the emperor's so please talk like us. You said you said, hey fields young black dragon river. These three areas, right? Also that map you have part of Inner Mongolia, highlighted which is technically part of the dome Bank. But it's not it's not thought that Inner Mongolia, is a province of China, a Japanese connection here to absolutely during World War, Two the Japanese with their and turned it into a country that they called Manchuria. Okay, there we go. And for you history, buffs, sorry about that. But reading to backtrack because yours truly it's crap with history. Yikes. Okay. So that is where what Putin is based on. I hesitate to say that because I'm not one hundred percent influence. It was the current Tyler. Yes. What we call pulled allies very heavily bluest by that. If you go some people say that, if you go to halo John those, those areas, the, the local diluent is closer to Mandarin than the Beijing dialect. I'm dick, rod. So here's your here's a great anti when I was learning Chinese in Guangdong, and canton. People are always talking about, like, oh, you're not gonna learn. You're going to have a Cantonese accent is going to be real bad. So when I moved to Beijing, I was finally all ESL finally get to, to have some real can get in there. And they're not real Mandarin. How that great virement? So get off the plane, and I said, in my best Crispus announcer voice, say hall way out. You Bali Bali Jong is, is a location, said Hello. I am going to body Jong, and the taxi driver said. What the fuck is that? In, like actual Mandarin. That'd be shut my phone. What place? What place you're talking about. Yeah. Is that? So I said very slowly. Yeah. Yeah, it's you buy the twang all by Jarre, because it's a very lake local Beijing accent, which is not the standard Mandarin. And the worst worst, worst worst, worst thing is I had a much bigger problem talking to Beijingers that I did talking to Cantonese Mandarin, because Cantonese people know, their Mandarin is not standard, and they will try to meet you halfway Beijing. People think that if you don't understand basing what Beijing language that is your fucking fault on your mentors. But that's not the case. Exactly what, and I've heard this from a number of people that if you go to parts where the parts of China, where Mandarin is sort of the second language, then it's easier to communicate because they use more of the standard. And I think this is why I can talk to more taxi drivers that I can to Shanghai as kids, there's less of that. It's my language. I'm using it, this kind of thing, and there's more of this the standard thing, and there's more flexibility with going back and forth to navigate the communication part of it. Yeah. Oh my gosh. That's so funny, because Colonel ago, the difference between language and dialect is very critical. We think we talk about Chinese as being there's, there's different. Gosh, yeah, but I mean historically, like those Dan different scripts. There was. Sometimes they say, oh, they always say characters, but sometimes they would only use the characters phonetically they would have their own language with their own grammar vocabulary, and they would choose the Chinese characters that represent sounds that fit their local language. This is places inside China. Yeah. So now we use the, the dialects are becoming more and more closer to Mandarin because that's, that's a political necessity institutional. I only know a few, I've only seen a few countries in hunter characters, but the ones I've seen so far seemed to be only using the characters phonetically is that true cross the board for countries. Yeah. In most cases. Yes. Okay. The same way that we call France. France, whatever. Francis in French. I should know that I should say. Like we call it, Spain Hispania, because we don't we don't start exactly. Have. With the show. Something close to that. Always a step a step to my Spanish students because they couldn't do Stephanie or Steph. They had to step a step. Yeah. I was completely from Tom because when I was in Heiko my boss, couldn't say, Josh Tuesday, Taus in dealth, Mandra, needs to hang to death. Oh my gosh. You can call me, Tom. Let's switch stop telling you to hang death. That'd be great. Thanks. Gosh. Okay. Posibility by the wedding. Just pull it out of nowhere. Oh, I know. I got, hey, Stephanie is my middle name, so deeper. There cares your development. No. It's actually just fact. The fourth chat for the bookie finally with the with the heroes name is. Don't you think I would ever claimed himself as a hero, but I'll just. Cast. You're the guests. So you're the here this time. Sweet as you're learning Mandarin Chinese were there ever any moments where you feel like you were you felt like see you were losing losing any of your English occasionally, it is hard for me to think of English words for things to talk about one. That was that was when I had never I had never done that marketing in America. So I had never talked about this. But there are times when I go back to the states, and it's kind of hard for me to think of words because I just don't use them as often. And I joked about that in Chinese and Chinese people think I'm joking and I'm like, not for real, sometimes because you don't use it all the time, and your vocabulary is fluid. Your vocabulary is it's not a Bank rate, but your money in there, and it just sits there like there are heavy Bank fees. If you're not making deposits, it will be withdrawn. You're not refreshing it. We'll be mathematical. Comparison we've made in this conversation about folk. Yeah. Well, I mean, there is a certain I want, I want to say one plus when he goes Tunis till language, and then there, isn't day now. I can't even think of the words. The reason why I forget English words as similar to or the same reason. Why review is the most important part of voting Elaine, which was so that I've convinced myself. I, I think of it like making a sand castles. If you make a mound of sand and he leave it, there is going to wash away. But if you this is such a terrible metaphor, because it's not true. But if you maybe Klay better metaphor, you have to continuously reshape the thing and you have to reinforce the shape and you let go for a day you come back is going to be droopy. You got shave it back up again, and eventually it's going to dry and harden into that shape. Somebody Chinese people, I and so many people who are learning, foreign languages, in states, those things that are like, oh, you can learn a thousand words in a day, or like, like no. Yeah, you can maybe recite thousand words at the end of the day. Wait a week. It's all fucking gun because that's not how it works want my most popular videos, Chinese Internet to my most popular video with hundreds of thousands of us is about long-term Francisco memory. What is it on you? I'll send it to you, as it's on tencent. Video. Multimedia. Yes. Okay. And the idea is, if you learn something once it goes in your short term memory and then you just forget it, you have to reinforce it over time before it goes into your long term memory and even stuff. That's in your long term memory Kengo can go much much much much, much more slowly stuff that you haven't been reinforcing comes back quicker, does go, right? That's the whole idea on the Lightner box. Have you ever used that? No. Oh, it's I want to say it was. Created by German but it's. Lightner bucks. It's time. It's what the time space repetition software is based on. So it's like post to remind you to review something just when you're about to forget it because too soon is too easy, and it's not really going to cement it. But if do just before you're about to forget, it kind of goes to the next level, remembering the next little something. Accent reviewing I. I forced myself to recall, things excuse me, people think of reviewing as reading your notes again. That's not how it works. You have to force your brain to go through the active recalling pain. Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's, that's a physical exertion of opening a door again, in your brain or like using your hands to force something back into shape when you recall it, and the, the more often you go through that process of recall, the stronger, the shape becomes in your mind and the longer, you can hold that shaping. Even we are not focused on it. Right. So Josh, you're talking about reminders, enlightener boxes and all kinds of language stuff, and I want to step back just a little bit and get meta with you for a second. If you are very interested in recording your own podcast, then, by all means let me give you a month free. Why? Yeah. It's so true. If you go to hod bean peo-, D, N dot com forward slash changing scripts, don't get the SSD and there you'll get one month free. That is part of the pod being affiliate program. I use them for by podcast hosting and I love them so much. I'm saying this because I know the pain of starting a new podcast and not knowing which reputable companies, there are on how to do this, and so many choices. There are so many choices in all of the decisions do how to make an I want to make that easier for you, especially if you're thinking of starting language learning podcast, because he, let's face it. There needs to be more of us out there in the world pod. Bean dot com slash changing scripts, you'll get a free month and a very easy to use. Great customer service and reasonably priced podcast host. How can you do better than that? Thank you for producing a great language learning podcast in the future. Let's get back to Josh and his language learning story. What languages do you dream? I very rarely remember my dreams. I am not convinced that all my brain all my brains. Are necessarily linguistic? I think that there, I got a dream that only Hazel remember, though, this morning when I woke up, and I remember there, being communication by brute language, it was it could be you, simply know things. And this is a whole the debate on whether knowledge can be a linguistic, which is a whole other can of worms. What has to be in some way? Otherwise, everything he can't speak would just be a lump on a period of time when we didn't have language to. Yeah. There critters don't have language and stay still know what to eat. What not to eat there? There's, there's a form of information that's held apprentice, linguistic communication between different creatures of that. Species anyway, after it's possible that I have dreams right communicate with and Chinese sometimes. And I say that because I forget which which I'm speaking like when I first started doing interpreting dinner from translating at a holiday pack of worms of the I would forget which language I was supposed to speak to him. So someone would tell me something in Chinese. And I would turn to the person I'm supposed to be intimidating for and repeat it to that person in Chinese. Just me, not being conscious of like this is the information I am expressing the information, which language I'm using for that is not as critical. So learning to differentiate them actually was a weird hurdle to go over see you not remembering what language they're in, when you do, remember your dreams, I think speaks to how much of a Chinese identity you have linguistically because if you were still at my stage when I have moments of Chinese happening, not necessarily me using it. But it happening in my dreams, I wake up, and I remember it and I doubt more than other dreams, because I'm like, oh, God could meet something or I wonder what was happening there. Do you plan on their name any languages in the future? A lot because my career is somewhat unstable. I'm making money pretty much lucidly on a freelance basis. I have a company that I started in Shanghai, but it doesn't require a lot of my time with some friends that I'm only at some of the projects, I make money off of translation off of making podcast, which I can do anywhere, and I did not expect that I would be able to learn Chinese as quickly as have. I did not want to quickly. But it was I think if I had moved to a country with the more similar language any romance, language beam, even chairman, I would've picked up a lot faster because there are so many conceptual hurdles at the beginning of Chinese like the idea of what language is and how the Spokane relates to the written and how you relate to the language, I think is all very different in Chinese than it is in western languages, general, if I if I moved to a place where we can speak, a language that didn't have those hurdles, I'm sure, we'll learn to laugh at and not have gotten over this here of thing will tie is a total language has a funny script. How long would it take me to learn time? Probably a lot less than it would take me learn Mandarin. So am I wasting my life by not taking my highly mobile career to a different place? Try legal. I think that a lot and laziness, I'm fine. For not being hard on yourself. I'm working too much right beside for not just trying to walk into a store and grab every shiny thing. You see on the shelf. Right. I could doesn't mean that I should. Yeah. Yeah, that a solid reason to do, I would be so neat though, I am a sucker for scripts now and I wish I knew this years and years and years ago. But yeah, now looking at their script is just look at the script, I think pre shocked could be putting my foot in my mouth. Real hard is the Manchu script. I believe. And it's fun spell that. Verticals. J. U. R. C. H. E. R. C H, E N think that is, it's from where from Manchuria. I think I could be have food at my ass. Dot com. I'm sure heard of it. Oh my God. It is d- best listeners, it is best. They're probably sick of this by now. Previous episodes. Yeah. The best language, comparison site for an English anyway. So it shows you, you know, it gives you just general information, and it shows you the script it has different sound clips and different things. Okay. Yeah. That, that's pretty cool. Oh my gosh. Yeah, this looks a little bit. Like tie for me. Is this based on sanskrit too? Was it would be see, no actually part of that looks more like traditional Chinese and part of it looks like sanskrit? Okay. That's crazy. Cool. Okay. Yeah. Listeners all have this in the show notes. Oh, and they go up to down orientation, that looks like poetry and it could probably even just be like directions for cooking is. It's one of those. The recipe. The tree doesn't necessarily let beat them. Eligible, you're like that's a bunch of stuff. People say that Chinese looks beautiful. I have never ever seen that. I don't think Chinese looks beautiful. I tell you it looks busy. I think son calligraphy Centaurs fee. I think what pretty cool, but that I think actually is more intriguing to me. The characters are. I think it looks parts. Sanskrit easy and part. Hansie. I wanna blend that route, dammit. That's very cool. Have you do you? Would you ever learn is that still being used to fix? Yeah. Especially because now that area of the world season cells has being quintessential Mandarin. Well, nine thousand nine hundred sixteen forty four whoa, okay. I don't think I could ever learn a language that was not something I could immerse myself in. I couldn't learn sanskrit. I could've learned Roman which is called Latin good job. Because because I. Because if I couldn't learn Spanish in school, I definitely can't learn those in school. I think the tools that I've built are all built around excessively at they're all built on interactivity. And I have to have that February the deep discount with one of the three scripts for Japanese. Yes. Having learned Chinese right? Yeah. So there is that if you're interested in that. But, but I can understand a little bit of Japanese writing because of that. But it's not always the one to what. Yeah. Very infuriating for people who are learning Chinese rules, like, oh, we'll sometimes the left part of the character, indicates the pronunciation, or the meeting in the right half indicates the, the, the meaning his pronunciation, and it's like, yeah, that's true. Sometimes. And what good is a rule. That's right. Sometimes look it as a rule, if you can't look at a character to know whether or not to apply the rule. And what one of the things that's infuriating is there are all these different historical times. There were rules that were more or less hard and fast. And then things keep changing he added. And now what now the U N dynasty at now. And the it's now the sort of something that speakers of English deal with without really being conscious. Is that it's a hodgepodge of all this random stuff together? Infuriating for people who speak something like Spanish, who want to know what the rules are there should be rules? The rules. But they there are some rules that work some most of the time, but not all modern English is modern English because of the mistakes that people made as, as the critical foreigners made as they were learning it. So it's intentionally butchered to the point of simplifying it, which is just so beautiful to say to people like English, so proper, now it is an immigrant language. Keeping in mind than in this podcast. We interview we slash. I interview who learned Mandarin Chinese in adult, as well as people who grew up with the language and learned other languages, namely English. Cassettes, high communicate with them. What questions are missing or what Christians would you add to either of those populations or both? That I think about a lot, we touched on this a little bit is the inbetween space, like he used the word open, and we talked about a lot quite like there. There's the space between Chinese and English that I find really fascinating, right? Like there's, there's some Chinese words that people who don't speak Chinese us because that's what people here say. Like like when you were talking about the four languages. Yeah. Yeah. So things like qui-, I had a friend who is mixed believe, and she was in a way that often happens, like people who were not of not entirely of the culture in question can be more purist about it. The people who are to them, it's just water, the water they swim, and they don't think about it. She was enraged about how four hundred Chinese would say, qui- when they mean like the why Chinese people use quiet all the time, right? And she was raised because he felt like he can't speak Chinese. Why, why are you doing this? Are you using this one? Little word doesn't make sense to me. I don't know why you'd be erased by that is how language always goes. That's how it's always a collision. It's always a messy swamp bag. Okay. Stuff. So that's, that's so are you getting out like what people's pet peeves are in there now? Okay, confuse the issue. You know, I took it. So whether or not people are upset by that I think is a question that might come out if space. So there's, there's one is the words that people adopt from Chinese, I or quite two different choirs, by the way, exactly the same, same tone, but very, very different meeting. So. There's also the words like open things like English words I have taken on completely different meanings because Chinese people use them, there are words, and there's a great video poppy channel. I should send you probably know she's a she's a trying to think of she's a Chinese Internet celebrity mix videos that are funny, and she didn't want. I think last year making fun of Chinese people through English words into their Chinese which I found very, very hilarious and terrifying. Terrified that video I think they can't speak Chinese, you're not gonna get the whole video, but you are going to see the hilarious ways. What did you start just throwing English words in the middle of language? So that's always fun when I was working in lost his file I feel sad about it. I was working in marketing, and Beijing. I was every time we were in a meeting and a client or selling would use an English word in the middle of Chinese, I would write it down. Yeah. I was gonna make a list of the words that might as well be Chinese because Chinese people always use them a line was a big one. Yeah. Aw internet. I've heard a few times to just in the middle of nowhere. But we do that in English. Oh, god. But we have so many loan words that sometimes it's hard to distinguish when we do it, but we do do that consciously to a sale AVI and. Deja view is even forget loan word like completely and utterly. Like we there are times that we do do that. Yeah, yeah. But it it does stick out because I think the sound differences are probably bigger. What I'm talking about. Basically is a central space. That is emerging. It's not Chinese is odd English is sort of a combination of the she was very different like we haven't meeting all now you didn't cover Lafon Rahall shoe, a lie home. Joe circle back like what the hell is you to say like oh, we talked about a lot we covered a lot today. Need to go a line with that department and it will circle back to it. So I've used these super business jargon words often, don't make the switch to Chinese because Chinese. Okay, so there's English and there's there's English. Oh my gosh. How am I not this question before? That's a space, in which I live, then there's English English language. And we're going to pretend like there these piercings and. The Mandarin Chinese. And in caps, there is sort of third culture, kids like a third culture lane. Oh. Yes. And there is a third language that is sort of like the diagram to change lots of different flavors of that from the side from that side different settings. Culture kid blink create out in a cafe, which means coffeeshop, why am I saying that we're cafe? I for long enough, you, you'll hear people pepper their Chinese with English. Yeah. Always almost always the same small vocabulary. Everywhere. I've tried to listen to podcasts even though I don't understand them in Chinese. And I, I hear it there. I hear it on the street. I hear everywhere I hear English and Chinese and Chinese and English all the time in China people from both sides. Make fun of me for doing that. But people in every language borough from the other language of the central space is essential space. Occupied by foreigners less often. So it comes off more forced to comes off more jarring. Doesn't. For example, e people use that all the time nobody ever says my made nobody ever says that way. Okay. So I've got the context of it being that third culture kid of languages. So is the question like, what are the words or phrases that they use in that space? Do you have any third space central space stuff? Is that a part of your life at all the do you find that the way you speak English has changed since you've learned Chinese do you find the way you speak Chinese change since he's started English? Mike. That is such a cool question. Okay. So what's your answer? I find sometimes I fuck up English grammar with the Chinese grammar in there. I find that I don't I was in Macau couple days ago. And I was speaking English for this guy, I was awkward mccowan Hong Kong because they're not technically Mandarin-speaking became places, even though a lot of people can speak Mandarin. They're technically the local language is going to be Cantonese Hong Kong also English. If you're Macau also Portuguese, but ever most people in a service industry, at least can also speak English, and, and an amendment this guy in English, and I got a cocktail and he's like, oh, we're about to close hockey has one drink. And he goes, Ken, Ken, Ken. Yep. Because in China because which an English if you want to translate, it correctly, it would be sure, of course you can. But directly translating just means can the same thing happens in Singapore. I can't think of an example of how English grammar but sometimes I do use a Chinese construction with. Words in it, and then immediately correct myself, I was kind of thinking about before the interview today that maybe we get to talking about examples of how these things up, but the can thing they do in Malaysia. And when I was teaching my students from the Gulf, not the US, but the Gulf Gulf, like from Yemen and Saudi and such teaching my students from there. They kept asking me. Why are the local teachers, the Malaysian teachers, why are they using Ken all the time? And I didn't have an answer for them on Mike. It's just a look English. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And now have more of an idea, but I was like it doesn't matter. Do you understand what they're saying, which is my response to everything? Is it confusing confusing you what they're saying, and they're like, well, no? But I just need to know if I need to do that. And I'm like will need if people still. Yeah. People still understand what you're saying. But. Depends on your staying. You're not staying here. I don't know we touched on. How we, we both like grammar Moyer kids, and I talked a little bit about how I feel like my, my love grammar was a little bit elitist liked it. But I could do it. Well, yeah. I think I mentioned that one of the reasons I like it because I could do it is sort of tied into my, my liking of myself in a way identify. Well, I cannot produce. See, that's the problem having right now with Chinese actually I've got these words and putting them together in a way the communicative -ly through grammar says, things is my absolute number one hurdle right now. Okay. Yeah. The way that I talked to that when I was in Chinese was textbooks, that would have sentence patterns on them. And I would always use the same pattern over and over and over again. But I would switch out the subject. Switch out the thing myself go through that process. And I think for me now knowing how visual I am after struggling with just the word is, I know I need to get out a piece of paper or like a notebook. And start doing that. And start writing it out. Sentence by sentence. I know that's what I need to do. But there's I write so slowly. Thing for me writing was absolutely crucial to learn cabbie, Larry. Yeah. But grammar Italia through speaking. I did not practice grammar at all by far in every language. I've tried to learn getting that down has been my biggest hurdle, and I've never gotten over it. So if I can do this in the next few months, even in any small way, that it is, by far, the farthest I've ever gotten in a second language through, just writing characters whatever quizzing myself covering up the pinion. How do you pronounce this character looking at opinion? Right. This covering up everything, but the definition and say, okay, what is it, those like three different directions of forcing myself to recall? That's how I learned vocabulary page. But for grammar I would look at it in my head, and then use it without writing it down like that. And that's I think one of the reasons why can type in Chinese and Chinese people always talk about how I type really really fast and Chinese, I can type words in Chinese. Yeah. Here's the thing, though. Yeah. Could you write it in Chinese very few things? So for me I can type you along Asiya mail. I wrote book. That was mostly I wrote in English. It was translated parts was, was was, I was, I wrote it. If you gave me a pen and a piece of paper and told me to write down, like a simple sentence. I'd be like can I use my dictionary on my phone because Chinese typing, I type opinion. So I type the sound of it, and then I just have to recognize characters. I could not produce that character on a blank page, so we talked about language having four parts, speaking listening, reading, writing there is no writing. If you type on a computer that's not writing plus reading I agree. So when you were talking about writing a lot before writing the characters before you were talking about typing them learning vocabulary. I won't get a pin. Do I, I have books books books full of me having written over and I cannot write those characters now, but I can recognize them, and if I had not written them hundreds, I don't think I'd be able to recognize I started out tracing. And then I moved to flash card site, which at that point, only once on the flash card usually pretty badly that motor thinking of doing the strokes in order. Very greedy for language I wanted vocabulary. And so for me that was hard enough. And it took a long time to look at the stroke order applicable, you can see the stroke order, play the video over and over and over and I play it like good six to ten times to try to get just that one card. Right. And then I'd be like I need content. Now I need the listening part in the context in the sentences, even though I can't produce it. I absorbed, a lot of, of language and I needed to get to a certain point. And now I feel like I need to go back and do the writing. So, I think that's when I have to come back and slowly sit down and write sentences. I think that might be the next hurdle all that sound so painful. Good conscience recommend that anyone writes in Mississippi. And that's part of this project, also notice trying to get a second language bible, is to try things. I haven't tried before. And I know how visual ham from the beginning of this of learning, this, that I know that if I write those out, I remember my strategy class my first science class after high school and high school. I was completely out. Like out in space somewhere literally, no joke intended to the. My love to my astronomy class. And I remember as I was taking the test. I could remember what page of my notes the information was and not exactly word for word. Like it's not that I know there's a word for somebody that member photographic memory. That's I don't have a photographic than me. But I can remember some things depending on, like, especially if I've written it and highlighted it circled it in like real questions next to it. I started to write questions to myself in my notes, and things like that. And those are the things I remembered, and that's why I think that this might be the next excruciating stuff that maybe break my soul, but we'll probably get finally got me to the next level. One of the things that was one of the first things that we talked about, which was if you add more levels of meaning of something. Yeah, I'll speak clearly. Now, if you add more levels of complexity of something in a way that makes it easier to remember because there's more hooks attached to it. So when you circle it when you write questions, you're putting more hooks on that thing stick, more easily Brandon makes connections between that and other things easier to recall for me. I guess. The grammar just the act of using the grammar to form sentences in my mouth over and over and over, again was enough repetition for me to get it. I don't think I personally would have been able to learn force myself to write sentences. I would never would never have. Saying this, I'm thinking, maybe I should just type them but it's not the same. It's. I have written proposals hybrid essays book, I've translated book. I have written very bad poetry. In chinese. But if you put a pin in my face, I can't now I would be very hesitant to write even one character without checking to make sure that I'm ready to correctly. And when I started to type with Pinon input I was like, that's it, I'm definitely not going to write Chinese. I know I'm going to a digital space, but I feel like I've been kind of going against this wall of what next what next what next for, like, what five or six weeks now. And I feel like this might actually though, even if you do it, and you realize that's not the thing that you need to do so long is that is the thing that is that you feel is in front of you. That is the thing you have to do the only thing that comes out of that UC realize, oh, that's not what I was supposed to. That's still. Studying as I'm studying slushy using the language as I'm figuring out if it is, or isn't the right place, because right now I'm just stuck. So could it get me on stuck? I don't know I guess we'll find out. Find out told me oh, you don't have to read characters never yet. You why are you wasting your time writing scripts over never again in my heart, though? I felt that I had to do that, if I wanted to remember the word. Yeah. Now yeah, this is all empirical. It could be that I could have not done that, and I could have remembered the words, but I felt that's what I had to do. So that was the only thing I could do because that was the only thing I felt urgency to that was what I felt compelled to do. I had not done that I would not have done anything. So in a way you kind of have to follow your compulsion to the next thing, I'm going to, I'm not I'm agreeing with you here. I'm not saying why have you not follow your compulsion say? Yeah. Absolutely agree. Yes, even though that wouldn't work for me. Maybe what worked for you. It is the only next to take it. That's what you gotta do. Lamb for Slough language-learning. Use me a few will because there's people out there that show you how quickly you can learn a language in how well you don't you don't learn it quick or anything. People say that and show that long excruciating process. I think the people who can learn language quickly are on the far into that. And I'm very impressed. And I wish I had that my brain and I don't and I don't think most people do so here I am. Trudging through, and encouraging folks to follow me. Mandra on Cape. We've had enough. The first nine months were more of playing with tools because I thought I was going to make language learning tools apps and connecting so is learning about the language and playing with the tools. So I really don't count that. So I'd say probably year with the main focus being on reading, and I made heaps like leaps and bounds with reading last year. And then after Mejia's K three-test from. That's when I kinda fell three under studying for a years. I'd say stealth studying, but honestly, I used a lot of people's resources and the case standard course books, which are disturbingly good. And I'm very critical of language a while to try to find standard and find. Official. This real bad internet. No. I'll give you the name of the series. It's really, really good. One of my coworkers who took an crazy. Aced ages. K six was the one. When I first started sending each K, who recommended them. And I really like these books will ages K is not speaking right ages. The speaking tests, h k is the reading listening and writing affect and writing very loose until you hit level for. Okay. I'm not taking the after I had been learning Chinese for a year. I could not have passed HSA three. I am a thousand percent. Sure. So you your first year has been much more productive than my first year was there's different things. You were using the language, and this is not. Material tests, you know, had a Lunt, did you interview herald for different podcasts? She's real great. She got her master's degree at a Chinese university. She knows more Chinese than I do. She could probably probably has passed a higher, h k that I think she said. She said, she took five she probably six though. I mean, her university classes were in Mandarin, right? Like her thesis was on China's poetry. I think exactly so she's reading and writing and listening like everything in, like, yeah. So, so I helped her a lot and we talk in talking Tony. Sometimes this is something we talk about is the differences and mostly I bring it up because I feel embarrassed that I'm making a living as a translator and her Chinese. I think if you if you gave me just right now, I pass four pass five four to start taking like non language based university classes, I think five to start taking like than you think. So it's probably four if you want varies between programs and bachelor's vicious masters kind of. Well, the generally split between but basically for cultural five. Could because the reading speed that you need specific than six, they have just so many idioms. It's insane things that I have never come across may become across a couple of ADM's in some light flowery marketing language, but I can just look up. I don't have to have them all on my brain. So I in a way. If I were not in China, I would have to depend on those tests to sort of prove that I can speak Chinese. I to have some sort of thing to study you don't need to take the test unless you need to prove your language ability for any sort of economic or or studying reasons. So we're back to the states to try to get a job. Oh, right. Right. Terrifies me because I'm thinking my living off Chinese for years. Clearly good at studying language. And like I said with the course books. They're really good at prepping you for the test. Okay. So you'd be fine. You'd be it'd be hard as hell. Right. Different. It'll be hard as hell because it's it's a task. You're not talking to the computer. Well, you can take a paper based, or you can take a computer based, and I like the paper base so much more because I could write in the margins as I was trying to do it within the timeframe, but I can be goofy for second. But the test is on this really off the one I took in check it on this really awful old colored screen, and it was just picked the answer. And there is no scrap paper and it was I'm never taking computer type. Again. Chinese because the thing, though, like, like Chinese input systems, even if you're just typing opinion different impositions work differently, so they give you different suggestions. Yes, they different keys do different selections in this elections available to you. So if I walked into a test like learning the input system, would be the first hurdle to even take the test three and the writing call it the writing section with basically Pinon input for a word and the new selected. So that wasn't bad at all. And the questions at the same time at the same time I can't not take the computer test because I can't write with a pen, then went if you if you want me to test. Yeah. That keep word I know I know because you do get dinged heavily I'm told by people who take the paper test for your handwriting. Gordon test of Henry. Yeah. So you probably would have to grin and bear it for the ridiculousness of the and I did an entire video literally half an hour after it talking about the ridiculousness of the format and the different and the test room and kinds of thing so much for coming on teaching scripts today. Pleasure to be here. I am always excited to talk about these sorts of things because this is kind of my life language in a large way, is your life, the people around you in a lot of ways. And it's not often that there's someone who is as deep in languages, you are who has lived here for a and also learning and can talk about these sorts of issues that are facing all the time, these things that are important to our lives. I almost feel like I am third culture. Kid, I, I've been very approved of appropriating the words. I like making up. Adult t LA. Oh, realtor Atkins that one is ready taken, especially in education shit. We'll think of. This is this is a space that I never thought that I would be, and that has all this fascinating stuff going on inside it. And so I really love talking about it. Thank you for inviting me the evidence if thank you, gutsy mealy, and shish. Knee are coming up right now. Thank you so much to our guest, Joshua Davis, who has not only volunteered so much of his time for this one episode, but he has to come back, and we are definitely going to take him up on that in the future number two is Damon Casteel, brilliant musician, based in San Luis Obispo, California. That's where I went to school where I did my undergraduate work and where a little bit of music, heart continues to be thanks to Damon's music, you can find Damon's music, including his newer album on Daymond, Custodio dot com. It'll be down in the show notes last. But not least thank you. The listener it's because of you're listening to the teenage podcast. And also watching the teenage crypto to channel that I continue to make these recordings I really appreciate all of the feedback that you give all of the listens, and all of the recommendations that you do to folks that you think might be interested in this. So please do pass on the podcast. We really really appreciate it. All right. Thank you, so much more soon.

Taiwan USA Texas Josh YouTube Guangzhou Australia Stephanie Heiko America Londor Rahall Nemi Kuala Lumpur Joe circle Asia mark Dr. Dr Sudi S. T. E. P. H Google