19 Burst results for "Masha Gessen"
"masha gessen" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"Think that saying that to readers without going so far as to saying there is no scenario under any situation, no matter what. In which the nominee will be someone other than Jeb Bush, Scott Walker and Marco Rubio is a way to level with readers and to be honest with him about what we know and what we don't know the New Yorkers Masha Gessen, who grew up in Russia, and who tracked the rise of Putin. Told us shortly after Trump's election that the inability of our elite media to see him coming was a failure of the imagination. We need to start imagining what happens if he becomes president. There's an intricate system of checks and balances that will force him to mobilize things through rhetoric. And that basically means I think that we have to start imagining which hunts we have to start imagining kind of wars at home. We have to first imagining what kind of groups he's going to start blaming for all his problems and all our problems with the real or imaginary. So your advice to the news consumer? My advice to the news consumers imagine the worst in 2016 guess and offered rules for imagining among them believe the autocrat. He means what he says. And that mountain of lies. They're in lay a larger message. And I think that the larger message there is I claim the right to say whatever the hell likely That's a really important thing to understand that the lying is the point. Not in the sense that Trump really wants you to believe that millions of people voted illegally. The point is, I will say whatever the hell I want, and that is also a component of my power. But you still want the media to call them out, right? I mean, you did take some comfort, for instance, in the New York Times is willingness to call a lie a lie. The headline that comes to mind is Donald Trump clung to Birther lie for years and still isn't apologetic. I mean, that's a new tack altogether. West of the night. I completely agree with that. I don't mean don't call him out on his lives. I mean, tell the bigger story. So that headline is brilliant because it points to the bigger story of his been consistent in lying. Attack in the normalization. Tennessee's to say Oh, you know all of that stuff that he said was just campaign rhetoric. It's hyperbole, and now he's going to become a normal politician. You know, wishful thinking, simple and clear. We have to believe. Autocrat. He is going to be creating this cacophony of nonsense precisely to undermine our ability to exist in the fact based reality. We as journalists really need to be listening to that. The other thing is that he's actually been consistent on his sentiments, if not on the specifics. His anti Muslim sentiment has been consistent. His racist sentiment has been consistent long before he even became a politician. His anti immigrant sentiment has been consistent, and so when minus well, throwing his misogyny while you're at it, waken waken looking good with his massage. His legitimation off. Violence in many different forms has been consistent. Yes, and told us to resist the impulse to normalize that institutions won't save us that it took Putin four years to dismantle Russia's electoral system, and it took less time in Turkey and Poland. Yes, said guessing America's institutions, and it's media were much stronger, but we needed to stop regarding our nation is so exceptional. It was but part of a worldwide trend. Turns out we were trying to find clues in an airbrushed picture of ourselves while blinkered There's a lesson there, find people with clearer vision as someone who's covered racial justice. I find it hard to think of an air are where I didn't question official lines of how things happened or what the information is Yummy. Shall sing door is the White House correspondent for the PBS news, Our black reporters, Latino reporters. From the very moment President Trump descended in the escalators and started talking about Mexicans as rapists and criminals. They work warning people saying there is something completely different about this president. I think of Jemele Hill, who left ESPN based off of possibly the pushback that she got for calling the president, a white supremacist ESPN anchor Jemele Hill is leaving SportsCenter to head The undefeated ESPN site about the intersection of sports race and culture. Hell made news in September for tweets that she posted about President Trump, calling him a white supremacist. Diversity cannot all be something that's just like what we do after we've built our newsrooms in the core of our newsroom is together. It can't be that you think you're doing a black journalist or Latinos on agent journalists a favor by hiring them. You need that expertise, much like you need. The expertise of people live in different parts of the country. And just like you need the expertise of people who are different ages. All of that will make Are newsrooms. Better? Anybody from the Democratic side of the fence? Who's terrified of the possibility of President Trump? Better vote? Better get active. Better get involved. Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison with a B C's George Stephanopoulos in 2015. This man has got some mo mentum and we better be ready for the fact that he baby leading Republican ticket next. I know you don't believe that, but I want to go. I'm just saying, I think that Another big lesson of the Trump presidency. Has to be diversity isn't something that you do because you think it's gonna make you feel better? And you think it's going to be a nice thing they put in a glossy pamphlet in HR Diversity is necessary to telling stories that are accurate. Another fair. That's a big lesson, understanding that the gatekeepers of our mainstream media often people who came of age in a cocoon of white privilege. Are likely prey to failure of the imagination. Another lesson for the institutions of journalism. Discard traditions that no longer serve. For instance, the blanket ban on having an agenda American journalism has always seen itself as Essential to democracy. It's gonna have to grow up and draw the necessary conclusions that that today requires a far more aggressive defense of the institutions of democracy. Then perhaps they signed up for in journalism school 20 years ago. Jay Rosen, media critic who teaches journalism at New York University, and writes that press, think dot or g'kar Thanks. That's the most important lesson so I would like to see more news organizations, for example, declare themselves to be probed participation. Pro voting, meaning that they stand for the proposition that more Americans should vote and they help that along by making it is clearest possible how you vote, but also By exposing and holding to account those forces that are trying to make it harder to those, and I think this is a natural role for American journalism. It's an extension of its willingness to fight for freedom of information and transparency. It should also fight for voting, another tradition ripe for the refuse bin. The whole approach to political coverage. Well, I just think it's interesting that the networks and major news organizations like the Washington Post and ABC and CNN Announce who's going to be covering the next administration without saying a word about how they're going to cover the next administration. As if it's obvious or they're just covering it. That's always covering it like how we gonna cover Biden by covering Biden. That idea that practice is stable and that we don't need to reform it. It's just like a curiosity to me that you name the team. But the game remains the same Reporters and their editors should resist the reflex to put the lion share of their resource is uncovering the powerful. From the perspective of the powerful early this week, Evan Osnos of The New Yorker said something very interesting about political journalism going forward. He said. Now there can be space and time for it to begin from the experience of the people on whom these policies are landing. Maybe it should start. With people affected by the moves of the power players rather than begin with the maneuvers of the power players themselves to shift the emphasis from those who wield power to those on whom politics is landing. Do you remember in 1991 with the first Gulf War when CNN emerged on the world stage with its coverage of the invasion? Yeah, well If you recall, there were CNN reporters in hotel rooms in Baghdad when the American bombs started dropping on the city, Peter, why don't we see if we could make that light? Go out and we have.
"masha gessen" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Similar to what we saw today. Sunny skies expected on Saturday for the bay with highs in the upper fifties to the low sixties. Tomorrow's predicted high in San Francisco 61 Sandra fell 63 57 in half Moon Bay, Biden supporters singing and dancing Rico, opting a song that has become an anthem on the Trump campaign trail. If it happens of Biden presidency would not become a reality for 75 days, and if, in the meantime, President Trump refuses to concede defeat, the transition of power could be especially treacherous. To consider. What might lie ahead is Nicholas Burns. He's a former U. S. Undersecretary of state for political affairs. He's also an adviser to Vice President Joe Biden is campaign Nick. I'm really interested in how this moment is seen abroad among allies and adversaries. Biden appears on a path of victory. Trump is digging in his heels. What does this moment mean? For us power in the world? Are we momentarily a superpower adrift? Well, I think we're seeing that way by many of our friends around the world. Marco. I sense in my own conversations just with friends around the world over the last 48 hours, a lot of anxiety about America and the moment that we're in even I would say fear they've never seen in America. In such an unstable state. They've seen the president Atlanta massive conspiracy to steal the election. They've seen the president declare victory and attempt to stop votes from being counted. And I think our closest friends around the world are shocked that in the citadel of democracy, that's the United States, this kind of direct attack on our democracy. And the essence of it. That vote will be free and fair. It's been made by our own president. I think it's shaking people up there worried about buildings being boarded up for fear of violence. People around the world are worried that the their previous image of us that were a self confident country that we're a leader that we're engaged with them and trying to keep the world peaceful, unstable. They don't see that in Donald Trump, and they worry about that. I think a lot of people worried about what the president may do next. I was rewatching of the late Senator John McCain's concession speech in 2008 to Obama, very distinguished and respectful moment You've been in the U. S. State Department during presidential transitions from one party to another. What is that, typically like and this time around? How do you think it might be different? I certainly remember Senator McCain's very gracious speech in 2008. I was actually in the White House working for President George H. W. Bush on the National Security Council staff. When he lost to Bill Clinton, he gave a magisterial concession speech talking about the importance of a peaceful transfer of power. He wrote a note to Bill Clinton on Inauguration Day saying You're our president. Now we're all going to root for you. And so I think the stakes are so high for how we see ourselves but also how others see us because The United States does not want to be seen by our adversaries as weak and unstable. So next sketch out the best and worst case scenarios in this upcoming transition. You know, transitions are tricky. I've been through a number of Republican Democrat Democrat to Republican as a non partisan official myself. That's a foreign service officer. Our tradition. Of course, The only way to conduct a transition is one president at a time. So President Trump even if he loses is going to be our president until noon on January 20th 2021. We just have to hope that somehow People around him are going to influence him to act in a civil manner to act in some way to try to unify the country, given what we know of him, and we know a lot about him. I think he's not capable of that. And so can others can Republican Party leaders stand up to say enough? Accept the will of the people accept the votes that have been counted? Nicholas Burns is a former U. S. Undersecretary of state for political affairs. He's also an adviser to Vice President Joe Biden is campaign. It is great to have you with us today, Neck. Thank you and have a relaxing weekend. Thank you very much, Margo. Last night when it was looking increasingly likely that Joe Biden would muster enough electoral votes to win the presidency. President Trump spoke of the White House if you count the legal votes Easily When if you count the illegal votes, they can try to steal the election from us. If you can't lies like that, and on and on it went for 17 minutes. President providing no evidence to support his claims that the American election was being stolen from him across the landscape. Members of the media pundits and some Republicans quickly described the speech as a low point for American democracy. Here's CNN's Jake Tapper, reacting in the moment of sad night for the United States of America to hear their president. Say that to falsely accuse People of trying to steal the election T try to attack democracy that way. With this feast of falsehoods, the major news network simply pulled the plug on the president and took him off the air. Joining me now is Masha Gessen. In their book, Surviving Autocracy Guessing chronicles the rise of Trump and the American political trajectory of the past few years. There are also a staff writer with The New Yorker. First of all, Marcia, I just want to get reaction from you to Trump's speech last night. What did you make of it? Perhaps, um, a little different from people whose side is something really extraordinary. And frankly, I wasn't surprised. I mean, I think that Trump has been telling us that this is exactly what he was going to do. And this is exactly how he received electoral process and we knew that this is what he was going to do. He was going to cast dispersions on the electoral process. He was going to basically say that whatever those were cast for him or good those beautiful though it's legal votes. And everything else was illegitimate. Right? So you're obviously not surprised last night when he actually comes out and says this, So let's jump to a different scenario. Where in the near future Joe Biden takes office. What lasting effects will four years of Trump have on the presidency or in the U. S government is a whole, like what was already baked in that is now even more evident and what can be undone. I don't think we need reinvention, both institutional and search of democracy. We need to really have a countrywide conversation about what we mean by democracy. Democracy is not elections. Democracy is not a set of institutions, those air all instruments of democracy. But how do we create a government of the government that we create a government of the people by the people for the people? These are fundamental questions that we haven't asked in a long time. And I think that part of the reason that it has been If Donald Trump to pervert institutions because we haven't had been having this conversation these air really huge and difficult. Projects that can be accomplished in Washington through Washington means they're kind of national conversation types of projects, and that's what we really need to do in order to avoid a Donald Trump or or a successor to Trump. Coming back in to take advantage of the structural changes that he has made. Marsha. In what countries? Have you seen democracy? Get reinvented, while kind of the bus as it were still moving. Where has that worked? Is there a model to follow? You know, at the moment is looking pretty bleak, but I think the Democratic experiments are often Not terribly long lasting because they require a reinvention all the time. But, for example, Poland has had an amazing 30 year old where and totalitarian regime gave way to something that was really beautiful, and representative Im trying for a long, long time. The Americans tend to think of democracy is something you build and then inhabit. And I think that the tendency to think that way has actually been more pronounced through over the last generation. As we refer back to the founding fathers as though they invented everything once and for all. Democracy is not that democracy is a process of constant reinvention. Masha Gessen is the author of Surviving Autocracy Where they chronicle the rise of Donald Trump. Marsha. Thank you very much for being with us. Thank you for having me..
"masha gessen" Discussed on 600 WREC
"Make the point? What the heck was a simulation call over Why would they? Why would they be play acting on the zoom call? Is this what left us do for fun? Why would a magazine staff be doing this? Well. Jeffrey Toobin was masturbating in front of New Yorker Biggs, report says. Now he's the talk of the town. New Yorker writer CNN analyst Jeffrey Toobin didn't just exposed himself during a zoom work, meaning he was allegedly caught. Masturbating in the call with some of the magazine's biggest names. He has now been suspended from the publication. I don't think CNN has a problem with this. They have not suspended if you heard I don't think they have a problem. I think they're probably applauding it. I think I think CNN. Oh, yeah, There's a great stuff. He said. I made an embarrassingly stupid mistake. Believing I was off camera. The 60 year old married Harvard Law School, Grand said in a stunning admission device. Which broke news of the incident on Monday. I believed I was off camera on a zoom call. I believe that I was not visible on zoom. I thought No one on the zoom call could see me. I thought I had muted zoom video who mutes video. I apologize to my wife. I apologize to my family. I apologized to my friends and co workers and I apologized to the Buyten's He didn't say that. But you know he's thinking it. Oh, is that right? Seeing him? Put him on leave. When did that happen? Couple hours ago. I'm is they put the pudding isn't interminable. Leave two weeks Leave. Just Ah! Split the scene for a while. Why we let the The heat. Below. Oh, he asked for some time off, right? He's got to go out and learn how to use a zoom obviously muted the video and it didn't get muted. Two people on the video call told Vice that the virtual Gavin this is where this gets curious to me. Two people on the video call told Vice the virtual gathering the zoom call Was part of an election simulation last week. That included New Yorker notables like Jane Mayer, Evan Osnos. Masha Gessen and Jelani Cobb, as well as producers from the magazine and W N Y C public. Really, What is An election simulation. Yet at the New Yorker. What I can't fathom what what? What does the New Yorker do? On Election Night? What An election simulation. The two sources said that at one point, it looked as if Toobin Was taking another call and lowered his camera and that's when they saw him getting to work on himself. It was unclear what if anything, others on the virtual call Saul during the simulation as nose had been playing the role of Joe Biden. Gessen was president Trump Jane Mayer represented establishment Republicans and she wouldn't know howto. Betray establishment Republicans if her life depended on it. And this Cobb babe Jelani Cobb stood in for the Democrats. Toobin was supposed to be playing the part of the courts. While Andrew Marantz represented the far right. Sue Halpern was the left and Dexter Filkins stood in from the military. Anybody have any idea what this could possibly have been? An election simulation. Were they simulating? What happens if Biden winds then doing a simulation of what happens if Trump wins? This is a very, very strange Bunch of people, folks. We've known this. This is a very, very strange thing for these people and remember, they think they are the brightest in the room. They think they're special. They think they are, in fact. Elitists grab audio sound bite number two. This is great. There is this. This is I think a great reaction to this whole New Yorker story and tube in and all that. Recently on YouTube turning point, US Ambassador Alexandra in Lane's posted the video. Explaining why people are voting for President Trump. And Just it's awesome here. If you're liberal and can't stand Trump can possibly fathom why anyone would want to vote for him. Let me fill you in. We can't stand you. You've done everything in your power to try and destroy this country by tearing down our police our borders our history. Systematically destroying our schools and brainwashing markets into thinking that socialism is the answer to everything. Demonizing religion and faith and glorifying abortion, violence and thug culture from calling us racist to expecting everyone of every color to follow our laws to ridiculing us for having the audacity to wish someone a merry Christmas or have a flag on the Fourth of July or stand for a national anthem or oh, the horror where Maga had out in public so much for your tolerance. We are voting for Trump not because he's the most charming character on the block, but because we vote policy over personality, and we're sick and tired of your divisive and destructive and Ingrid and intolerant behavior and beliefs parading around in some kind of woke nous. We are voting for Trump. Because of you there you have it. And in less than one minute this woman sums up. Why The left is so despised why everybody has a problem with him, but it's concise. It's ah, it's it's to the point. The reason we are voting for Trump is we can't stand. You mean, while they're out there, they're out there, claiming that they're trying to get anybody vote against Trump because of his personality. They're actually running a campaign. With a candidate who is putting forth not a single reason to vote for him. Joe Biden is not announcing an agenda. That's why doesn't draw flies doesn't generate crowds. There's no nobody knows. Other than when Biden let slip what his agenda is, but it's not the kind of agenda that you go out and you and you attract a crowd with people don't want the Biden agenda, which is why it's pretty much silent. So they're out there with Biden having no agenda. That he's willing to put his name to Trying to convince people to vote against Trump simply on the basis of his personality. We're supposed to ignore Trump's achievements. I'm supposed to ignore Trump's accomplishments. We're supposed to ignore Trump's love of country love of the American people. We are to ignore Trump's desire that this country become the great country at once, Wass We're supposed to ignore that. Trump wants that greatness because he loves the American people and wants everybody in this country to prosper. Yet none of that matters. We're supposed to ignore all that You're not supposed to vote for that, because this guy has a rotten personality. The truth is They're the ones burning down America. They're the ones loading property that isn't theirs. They are the ones that are destroying. Purposefully..
"masha gessen" Discussed on KGO 810
"No. Well, not like that. No, but I had a zoom Miss happened near Zoom mishap. Well, call it What happened? I Disrobed and I forgot that I had early assigned on early to my son's first grade class first grade class. Lovely. Luckily, the teacher had not Let the kids in from the waiting room yet the zoom waiting room, right? But I walked right past his iPad in all my glory that did the teacher see you? Did she say any old because no one had let him in yet. I mean, I lucked out, but you really have to pay attention. You do pay it. There's no walking around naked new tea at your house. So let's let's tell the listeners that Jeffrey Toobin story of her underwear. No, Jeffrey Toobin. He's pretty well known. I mean, he's known on CNN, especially. I think he's their senior legal analyst there. So you see him on CNN all the time. He also writes he has a regular column in the New Yorker magazine. So Jeffrey Toobin is in this meeting It zoom meeting with staff writers at the New Yorker and employees from W. N Y C. They jointly produce a podcast for the magazine. So they're on this video call. They're prepping for election. In night coverage. I just had a meeting like that with Lee Hammer and and Ah, so they're doing this during a pause it by the way, Jane Mayer. Many of you probably know Jane Mayer. She was also involved in this. She was one of the employees, so they there's a pause in the call because they're going to do break out discussions. So as this is going on, Toobin switches to a second call, which was the video call equivalent of phone, sex, and and he was he was exposing himself. But he believed that he was off camera and I believe he believed that I cz pretty funny because what they did was they had people who were doing other things. There were people who were what were they role playing or something about what they were going to do on Election night? Yeah. Participants played roles simulating what might happen on election night to been played the role. The court's Masha Gessen, the New York writer, played President Trump and even the people who were participants, They said. They're pretty sure that Toobin didn't realize that the people on the New Yorker call could see him so he goes into this Colin. He doesn't realize that the camera's still on, you know, it's like when you're talking. There's still when you're in a meeting. Even though you're not the main face in the meeting, or whatever people can still see you and they can click on your face and make yours the big face or click on other things if they're in the camera, and Yeah, so they're he Waas pleasuring himself. He was exposing himself, but not with the intent that anybody else was going to see. So anyway, he issued a statement. Hey did say that. Let's see. I made an embarrassingly stupid mistake believing I was off camera. I apologize to my wife, family, friends and co workers. I thought I had muted the zoom video. He's added. So I guess he was also no reason. Or maybe the sound was coming from the thing he was watching. I thought no one on the zoom call could see me. So, Yeah, so this is pretty funny now up. I mean, I think it's funny. He's been suspended right now. Is they investigate this? But you know, one of the things I thought of Kim is, you know, this is a guy who whose image is very important to him. He's this legal analyst. If this had been Howard Stern would he have responded that way? I think anybody who sees you doing that particular act on a zoom call would be In some hot water. If you actually gonna work setting it feel, though. Radio is a whole different animal. Howard Stern what Howard Stern would say something like. Sorry, but I really needed to do this. You know that I masturbate 30 times a day or whatever it is, he says. He talks about it incessantly, and I wonder if that had happened at KGO. Camera. Bollywood said Don't do that again. Okay? No, I think it would have been bigger than that. I don't think you got any more that I know. And I can't imagine any of our coworkers doing that course. You know, Most of our co workers are pretty tech savvy. I think they realized that anything you do You know what? You shouldn't do anything when you're on. Oh, there's you're on a call. You shouldn't walk past year monitor a naked, okay? That was an accident, but you're completely wrong. Eyes is OK. But listen so in in my defense, and then in the end, what does it have been the company zoom call where we're all involved in the meetings that we would assume and walked, walked by naked, mortified, but I would rather be naked in front of my co workers. The first graders write that. Yeah. I mean, if I have to be naked in front of a group and how would you have handled it? What would you have said? I'm mortified. I'm sorry. Please excuse me. I know you'll need I bleach now. My apologies, but I think it's really a new way of remembering and thinking, you know, we all have the zoom things going on. There's cameras pointed in every direction and people's households and it's catching life. It's catching things that happen in your house, and we're not used to being online all the time. Like secret video cam like, what's that show? Big brother? Yeah, the cameras pointed at every room and you just kind of get used to it after a while, and I could get used to it. Then you stop, you know being so careful, and that's the problem. Yeah, but those people that's different. I mean, if you're in a zoom call, you know, but But then, if you do, if you actually think you're going, Teo, a different page, you're going to look at something different. So you're not looking at the zoom people. They're still looking at you. And that's the thing that I think is really weird. You're looking at something else. But, like right now, Kim, I can see you because we're on a video thing. So I just covered up your face..
"masha gessen" Discussed on WBSM 1420
"Of that woman. The New York staff writer Masha Gessen, the New York ER right, Um and I wanna play. She meant she compared this this parade, you could call it a guess. A motorcade of Trump driving by two the death watch of Stalin And for those of you who remember Cold War history before style and died and there were there were a lot of people who Spouted the conspiracy theory at all fours ever proven or not, that Stalin was actually poisoned because he was getting ready for another purge, and everybody who'd survived the purge before World War two cents. I'm not going to survive two of these things. We better get rid of him, and the other thing they did was radio Moscow before they made the announcement, they began playing the funeral dirge. So all around the world, you know it was on short wave, everybody said Uncle Joe's been sick, Bad news coming. Can you imagine CNN or MSNBC playing at the funeral dirge if they were about to make the big announcement No, they would be playing music, but it wouldn't be the funeral dirge. Right? So this is our joy Behar, she and you know how I'm going to make this comparison. You can tell how panicky liberals are by what they compared? Trump do so if something's happening and they think they're doing well, then he's orange man, and he's you know the idiot in chief, or whatever. But when they get panicky, and they think things are going in his direction, he gets the Hitler comparisons. He gets the stall in comparison. Forget Mussolini. So let's play how his favorite joy Behar, this has cut 12. Well, when I watched him watching that card the parade yesterday with him in the car that was right out of a dictator's playbook, you know, raid the dictator around so that the world in America came. The country can see. That he's still alive, and he's still robust. But, you know, I thought to myself, usually the hostages. They're not driving the car. Um, the thing about getting it his suddenly gets it now, now that I get it This is comrade of ours. It's not a hoax anymore. That's what he learned. She's a comedian, right? This is supposed to be funny, I think He. He never said it was a hoax, he said the coverage of it the way the media was treating it well. I also then comparing someone going around the country to make people feel or even just driving by people to make them feel like everything's good and give them hope is not necessarily out of the dictators playbook. It's just out of the leader's playbook. That's what you do You rally people behind you, you make people feel good. It's not. I don't know They love to just trying to think of a dictator who appeared in a car. And drove around. I'm drawing a total blank. You enjoy a Bahar are very different Historians. Okay, Howie? She rents in different I guess I'm not as well read his fury. Pay Har is I have one more cut. I want to play. I don't think this is going to get as much coverage today because of all the fire stuff. But Former President Barack Obama did a virtual conference with Kamala Harris and a few other people. I don't remember who they were, but listen to what he had to say about voting by mail. This has cut 13. Should not listen to folks who are suggesting that somehow If you vote by mail, it's not going to be counted or that you know, Somehow there's gonna be a whole bunch of fraud. There's a bunch of efforts to confuse and discourage. But even in 2016, there was some sin shenanigans going on to the extent that had an impact most of it had to do with people not voting because they got wrong information. Uh, the old Facebook Russia bots type theory. Yeah, they put in a couple of $100 settled. That goes a long way in a country with 330 million people, right? He's so arrogant and and truly I was only here for a short time before Trump became president. And I remember having to cut up Obama sound and every time he has anything worthy of pulling, I forget how Much he talks and how little he says. There's no doing our he could go our press conference, which he really did, and only take five questions. I just goes on and on. And no one interrupts family for a guy who really wasn't that great of a legislator. You know, either the state or the federal level, he could sure filibuster. Oh, he and they loved it. They looked at him. Like they were at a Beatles concert..
The rise of Poland's far right has important lessons for Americans
"Election of Donald J. Trump. We in the United States have become accustomed to a degree of fabulous. Um I've done more for black Americans than anybody. With the possible exception of Abraham Lincoln, the president, self aggrandizement provides the framework for his alternate reality. We have one of the lowest mortality rate way had 900 Deaths in a single day. You have the numbers place because I heard we had the best mortality number one low mortality, right? We are being given something I can't recall in my lifetime, a choice of realities. One that is mostly regarded as evidence based and one that you might call faith based that faith being in Mr Trump In either case, you have a sizable cohort to back you up. Truth has been displaced in many quarters by rage and fear. Over the past four months, we've had many opportunities to observe the impact of paranoia. When deployed by a fantasist in the White House in Arizona Man died after taking Clara Quien, his wife said that they heard about it from Trump's briefings. Are you gonna allow the government to tell you you have to wear a mask? Some believe these mask orders go against their freedoms will protect. All right, I will know asked me and I will not pay for antibiotics. Conspiracies of Sena numbers swell on Facebook and doctors warn, if left unchecked, they could undermine an effective vaccine. The death toll from the Corona virus pandemic has surpassed 150,000 in the United States. That's the highest number of fatalities in any nation by far. And accounts for nearly 1/4 of the recorded global. Told immediately after the 2016 election, I spoke with New York ER writer Masha Gessen, who, after having lived long under Vladimir Putin had some advice for anxious Americans trying to navigate the so called new normal. She explained that for the would be authoritarian, the lying is the point that the ability to create a reality flagrantly staring down conspicuous fact. Is a crucial component of building and sustaining power. And last fall boxes, David Roberts noted bluntly, where such a strategy left unchecked, could lead this sort of cultish, increasingly authoritarian movement takes over the country. In Russia and Turkey and Poland. Right's a disturbingly longer and longer list. We see countries that we thought were democracies devolve into this. In the U. S. So much has happened in the last few years that we thought would never happen. I think we should really loosen up our imaginations as to what can happen when a movement that is convinced that everything it knows and loves is in danger of falling apart movements that's thinking like that unconnected anymore to fax or reality. And got its hands on the power of the federal government is the basic recipe for democracy is falling apart. And so last fall on, the media producer Leia Feder reported on one of those places Poland, a young democracy teetering on unstable ground and where it's far right Nationalist government is intent on rewriting the nation's painful history. For almost a decade, Poland has been in the grip of a conspiracy theory what really happened when a plane crashed in a forest in western Russia, killing Poland's president and dozens of other government officials. The plane had been on route to commemorate another Polish tragedy, a massacre that had occurred in the very same location in 1940. 1973 documentary explored the mystery While the German army is advancing from the West, the Soviets crossed Poland's eastern front court in a method of Polish army collapsed, Um, surrendered. The victors, divided the country down the middle and imprisoned every soldier they captured. Russia took a 215,000 Poland officer Corps were never seen alive again. Many. What die near Smolensk, in a forest called catching after decades of opacity and suspicion on investigation in the early nineties, confirmed finally, that it was not Hitler. But Stalin, who had ordered the massacre. And so when, on April 10th 2010 a delegation of 96 Polish politicians and officials traveled from Warsaw to Smolensk. It was in service of remembrance and reconciliation. But what happened instead compounded the national pain. Poland's prime minister burst into tears when he heard the news today that his country's president was killed in a plane crash pilot tried to land in a thick fog at least twice missing the runway. And ignoring the control tower's direction to divert to another city. Not just losing the president of that country. The first lady, the ahead of the army chief of staff, the National Security Office head deputy Parliament speaker, the deputy foreign minister. It was a devastating national tragedy. What's more, the symbolic layering was undeniable. Ah, longstanding tragedy finally solved and a new one appears in its place. And yet, in the immediate moments and days after the crash, there was a kind of common shock. An Applebaum is a journalist and academic beast in Warsaw At the time of the 2010 crash, her husband was minister of foreign affairs in the Polish government, and there was pretty straightforward reporting. About what had happened. What was immediately clear There were people on the ground who saw the crash. So there was a kind of concensus initially about what had happened that it was a terrible Accident and that you know many people of value to the nation had died. But the story started to shift is the investigation into the crash proceeded. Investigators say pilot error was mostly to blame. It became clear that one of the causes of the crash was the fact that the pilots were under pressure to land. The president's delegation had arrived late for the plane. They were running behind schedule as they got closer to smell lens, which was even really an airport. It was a kind of airstrip in the forest. They began to be worried about the fog and the pilots weren't sure they could make the narrow landing. But according to black box recordings, Polish President Lech Kaczynski, head of the opposition party directed the pilots to do it was meant to be the launch of his reelection campaign. So there were cameras there which he knew, and he was very anxious to go under pressure, the pilots tried to make the landing. Instead, they hit a tree, killing all 96 people on board. The president's twin brother, the head of the nationalist right political party in Poland, same parties, the president He didn't like this story. It made the president look bad, more to the point. This is a terrible crash very near to a place where a Nurlita generation of poles were murdered by the Soviet state. Because of that eeriness. People immediately began to speculate that there was actually a different, deeper story that perhaps the Russians caused the crash. Perhaps there was a bomb on the plane. And conspiracy theories began to proliferate online. The president's brother, Nijinsky began openly alluding to them. Kaczynskis Law and Justice Party made unraveling the Smolensk conspiracy. It's key campaign promise once you had bought into their idea that there is a secret conspiracy, possibly involving the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk. Possibly involving the Russians, and that lots of people high up in the state were implicated in some great big secret plot to kill the president. If you believe that Then you can believe a lot of other things. The point was to get people to believe in a kind of alternative reality to doubt institutions to doubt that the government was telling them the truth, and that was absolutely an attempt to help win an election, But it did more than carve out a new electorate. It created new divides in Polish society. Where one's Polish politics were split between Communists and anti communists around economic policy. Now it was over a vision of history. It was how you see Poland's place in the world. And whether you think secret dark forces air trying to undermine your country and whether you know you need to elect a government of Patriots in order to make sure that doesn't happen. Where you fell on that dividing line affected how you would vote and how you would understand politics for the next several years, And so when line justice one in 2015 it spawned a new kind of power a power based on the willingness to embrace the myth. They fired large numbers of Polish civil servants. Polish members of the foreign service. All kinds of people who work for the government also leaders and board members of state companies and they replaced all of them with people whom they were sure we're loyal. And one element of the loyalty test was belief in this Molinski myth. Smolinski conspiracy implied that there were dark, mysterious forces continuing to try to manipulate and undermine the Polish nation. It also drawn the larger story of a Poland continually attacked by outsiders and the valiant Polish resistance to threats past and present line Justice Road that narrative electoral victory. And then wrote its electoral victory to further consolidation of that narrative in service of Polish nationalism.
The rise of Poland's far right has important lessons for Americans
"Of Donald J. Trump. We in the United States have become accustomed to a degree of fabulous. Um I've done more for black Americans than anybody. With the possible exception of Abraham Lincoln, the president, self aggrandizement provides the framework for his alternate reality. We have one of the lowest mortality rate way had 900 Deaths in a single day. You have the numbers place because I heard we had the best mortality number one low mortality, right? We are being given something I can't recall in my lifetime, a choice of realities. One that is mostly regarded as evidence based and one that you might call faith based that faith being in Mr Trump In either case, you have a sizable cohort to back you up. Truth has been displaced in many quarters by rage and fear. Over the past four months, we've had many opportunities to observe the impact of paranoia. When deployed by a fantasist in the White House in Arizona Man died after taking Clara Quien, his wife said that they heard about it from Trump's briefings. Are you gonna allow the government to tell you you have to wear a mask? Some believe these mask orders go against their freedoms will protect. All right, I will know asked me and I will not pay for antibiotics. Conspiracies of Sena numbers swell on Facebook and doctors warn, if left unchecked, they could undermine an effective vaccine. The death toll from the Corona virus pandemic has surpassed 150,000 in the United States. That's the highest number of fatalities in any nation by far. And accounts for nearly 1/4 of the recorded global. Told immediately after the 2016 election, I spoke with New York ER writer Masha Gessen, who, after having lived long under Vladimir Putin had some advice for anxious Americans trying to navigate the so called new normal. She explained that for the would be authoritarian, the lying is the point that the ability to create a reality flagrantly staring down conspicuous fact. Is a crucial component of building and sustaining power. And last fall boxes, David Roberts noted bluntly, where such a strategy left unchecked, could lead this sort of cultish, increasingly authoritarian movement takes over the country. In Russia and Turkey and Poland. Right's a disturbingly longer and longer list. We see countries that we thought were democracies devolve into this. In the U. S. So much has happened in the last few years that we thought would never happen. I think we should really loosen up our imaginations as to what can happen when a movement that is convinced that everything it knows and loves is in danger of falling apart movements that's thinking like that unconnected anymore to fax or reality. And got its hands on the power of the federal government is the basic recipe for democracy is falling apart. And so last fall on, the media producer Leia Feder reported on one of those places Poland, a young democracy teetering on unstable ground and where it's far right Nationalist government is intent on rewriting the nation's painful history. For almost a decade, Poland has been in the grip of a conspiracy theory what really happened when a plane crashed in a forest in western Russia, killing Poland's president and dozens of other government officials. The plane had been on route to commemorate another Polish tragedy, a massacre that had occurred in the very same location in 1940. 1973 documentary explored the mystery While the German army is advancing from the West, the Soviets crossed Poland's eastern front court in a method of Polish army collapsed, Um, surrendered. The victors, divided the country down the middle and imprisoned every soldier they captured. Russia took a 215,000 Poland officer Corps were never seen alive again. Many. What die near Smolensk, in a forest called catching after decades of opacity and suspicion on investigation in the early nineties, confirmed finally, that it was not Hitler. But Stalin, who had ordered the massacre. And so when, on April 10th 2010 a delegation of 96 Polish politicians and officials traveled from Warsaw to Smolensk. It was in service of remembrance and reconciliation. But what happened instead compounded the national pain. Poland's prime minister burst into tears when he heard the news today that his country's president was killed in a plane crash pilot tried to land in a thick fog at least twice missing the runway. And ignoring the control tower's direction to divert to another city. Not just losing the president of that country. The first lady, the ahead of the army chief of staff, the National Security Office head deputy Parliament speaker, the deputy foreign minister. It was a devastating national tragedy. What's more, the symbolic layering was undeniable. Ah, longstanding tragedy finally solved and a new one appears in its place. And yet, in the immediate moments and days after the crash, there was a kind of common shock. An Applebaum is a journalist and academic beast in Warsaw At the time of the 2010 crash, her husband was minister of foreign affairs in the Polish government, and there was pretty straightforward reporting. About what had happened. What was immediately clear There were people on the ground who saw the crash. So there was a kind of concensus initially about what had happened that it was a terrible Accident and that you know many people of value to the nation had died. But the story started to shift is the investigation into the crash proceeded. Investigators say pilot error was mostly to blame. It became clear that one of the causes of the crash was the fact that the pilots were under pressure to land. The president's delegation had arrived late for the plane. They were running behind schedule as they got closer to smell lens, which was even really an airport. It was a kind of airstrip in the forest. They began to be worried about the fog and the pilots weren't sure they could make the narrow landing. But according to black box recordings, Polish President Lech Kaczynski, head of the opposition party directed the pilots to do it was meant to be the launch of his reelection campaign. So there were cameras there which he knew, and he was very anxious to go under pressure, the pilots tried to make the landing. Instead, they hit a tree, killing all 96 people on board. The president's twin brother, the head of the nationalist right political party in Poland, same parties, the president He didn't like this story. It made the president look bad, more to the point. This is a terrible crash very near to a place where a Nurlita generation of poles were murdered by the Soviet state. Because of that eeriness. People immediately began to speculate that there was actually a different, deeper story that perhaps the Russians caused the crash. Perhaps there was a bomb on the plane. And conspiracy theories began to proliferate online. The president's brother, Nijinsky began openly alluding to them. Kaczynskis Law and Justice Party made unraveling the Smolensk conspiracy. It's key campaign promise once you had bought into their idea that there is a secret conspiracy, possibly involving the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk. Possibly involving the Russians, and that lots of people high up in the state were implicated in some great big secret plot to kill the president. If you believe that Then you can believe a lot of other things. The point was to get people to believe in a kind of alternative reality to doubt institutions to doubt that the government was telling them the truth, and that was absolutely an attempt to help win an election, But it did more than carve out a new electorate. It created new divides in Polish society. Where one's Polish politics were split between Communists and anti communists around economic policy. Now it was over a vision of history. It was how you see Poland's place in the world. And whether you think secret dark forces air trying to undermine your country and whether you know you need to elect a government of Patriots in order to make sure that doesn't happen. Where you fell on that dividing line affected how you would vote and how you would understand politics for the next several years, And so when line justice one in 2015 it spawned a new kind of power a power based on the willingness to embrace the myth. They fired large numbers of Polish civil servants. Polish members of the foreign service. All kinds of people who work for the government also leaders and board members of state companies and they replaced all of them with people whom they were sure we're loyal. And one element of the loyalty test was belief in this Molinski myth. Smolinski conspiracy implied that there were dark, mysterious forces continuing to try to manipulate and undermine the Polish nation. It also drawn the larger story of a Poland continually attacked by outsiders and the valiant Polish resistance to threats past and present line Justice Road that narrative electoral victory. And then wrote its electoral victory to further consolidation of that narrative in service of Polish nationalism.
"masha gessen" Discussed on KQED Radio
"What we could call a peaceful transition to power. In fact, it just Presupposes it. Yeah, that's exactly right on DH and by presupposing it I mean, you know, it's the kind of a typical feature of legal systems. I mean, any kind of institutional framework. Sort of Presupposes the good faith actions on the part of the people who are inhabiting positions of authority within the institutions. And no institution can sense secure itself against people who are unwilling to abide by the rules of the game. And it's the same thing with our system of federal on constitutional law. Obviously, there's a certain amount of sanctions. The back are backed up that laws backed up with sanctions if you break it, But in terms of the larger, you know edifice of constitutional law. It really kind of Presupposes that our officials and lawmakers sign on to the norms of that system and what we've seen throughout Trump's Presidency is first a willingness to kind of smashed through those norms and to ignore them, and secondly, which is no less disturbing is that he's not really had to pay the political price one would have expected. For such defiance of the basic norms of constitutional governance. And, actually, if you look back historically, for a moment, let's do that. Professor Douglas We have the Tilden Hayes election of 18 76 and course. Gore versus Bush. But in both cases there was a concession by wealth killed in and buy. Eventually, Al Gore eso. It means in effect, we're dependent on Norm's. Perhaps Maybe even more than the Constitution of the laws of the institutions. Yeah, I think that's exactly right, Michael because something let's look back. I think something that probably in the recent memorably some of your listeners is the 20 luck the 2000 election between George W. Bush in and Al Gore. I think a lot of people recall it was contested, and some people think I believe that it was the Supreme Court that ultimately brought closure to that election. And even if people think that the court's rulings partisan or that it was kind of poorly reason, they nevertheless think look this electoral dispute. It couldn't just carry on. I was going to hurt the country so it was necessary to get some closure. But I actually think it is wrong to credit the Supreme Court with providing closure it really was provided by Al Gore. Who on the day after the Supreme Court delivered. It's very controversial opinion of your rather gracefully conceded. And he basically put the political interests of the country ahead of his own political fortunes. And I think you know, whatever we know about Donald Trump. It's impossible to imagine him acting likewise. If you slaughtered on Donald Trump into the 2000 election, putting him in the place of Al Gore, we really could have seen a very dramatic electoral meltdown. Talking about the possibility of President Trump rejecting electoral defeat in 2020 with Professor Lawrence Douglas, he's professor of law at Amherst College and author of Will He Go, President Trump. The looming election meltdown in 2020 and it is a metaphor that's appropriate with the melt on you Talk about Chernobyl. In fact, let's just talk about one of these scenarios that you present to us where you could actually have Two different presidents because the governor's actually have the prerogative of exercising an electoral decision and you could have a CZ you painted for US Chief Justice Roberts swearing in. Are being sworn in by Nancy Pelosi because of 1947 Presidential succession Act would allow her to take over that office as acting president and Clarence Thomas swearing in President Trump you have competing electoral certificates or perhaps no one being sworn in. Yeah, That's exactly right. And it gets a little bit granular into the peculiarities of our electoral system. But, you know, as I think most of your listeners are well aware whoever wins the popular vote In a state wins all the electoral college votes of that state. And it doesn't matter if you win the popular vote by one vote, or if you win it by several 1,000,000 votes like Hillary Clinton one in California in 2016 You still get a ll the electoral college votes and the kind of scenarios in which things could really go sideways Come this fall is situations in which in our swing states of again Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, in which you have a very tight outcome. And the tight outcome. It's not unlikely that we could imagine it playing out in the following way that on November 3rd imagine that Trump has a slim lead in the swing states now. One of the reasons he could have a swing. He could have a narrow lead in the swing states on November 3rd is because hundreds of thousands are giving millions of mail in ballots will not have been counted yet. And so as those mail in ballots are then counted in the days or even the weeks after America goes to the polls on November 3rd, his slim lead vanishes, and it now looks like Biden has carried those states. Then what becomes a really dangerous situation, And it's exactly as you alluded to Michael is you could imagine Republican lawmakers who, after all control the Legislature's in the swing states. Actually siding with Trump and saying that no, these melon ballots have been affected by fraud. We're not gonna count wth, Um we're going to go with the November 3rd result, which has him leading narrowly. The same swing states actually have democratic governors. You could imagine the Democratic governors saying no way that we're going to do that. We're going to count the full state canvas that wasn't completed until weeks later. On. We're going to recognize Biden is having won the state And as a result of that you could have, as you were alluding to you Could have these competing electoral certificates wind up in Congress's lap come January 6 2021. Now that's a date. That's probably not on the radar of a lot of your listeners. But that's the date on which a joint section a joint session of Congress Opens and certifies electoral balance, and typically, that's a pretty ceremonial function. It happens relatively quickly. But if you have states of meeting competing electoral ballots, then suddenly you're looking at the potential of Absolute stalemate within Congress itself. It's a frightening picture of Ah ah, lack of equipped. The nature of how lack of equipped are legal and constitutional systems are perhaps to deal with an electoral crisis. And it prompted me to ask you If the guard rails would perhaps be only as you suggest Republican lawmakers having to come aboard or having to concede in some way. Yeah, I think that's one thing. So because what we're kind of imagining right now, Michael is if you do get these competing certificates coming from the states, Ultimately, Congress again in early January would have to decide which certificates recognize now. One possibly hopeful outcome is if the Senate is captured by the Democrats, and if the Democrats continue to hold on to the House Then our electoral stand make, perhaps could be a verdict because one thing we need to bear in mind is the congress that will be opening in certifying thes electoral certificates on January 6th. It's not the Congress that we have now is the Congress that will also be voted in on on November 3rd. And they will be sworn in just three days prior to the joint session will be sworn in on January 3rd, 2021. And s so if Democratic captured the Senate, then I think Trump's attempt to play constitutional brinkmanship will be limited, but If they don't capture the Senate and the Senate remains a Republican hands, then we really could have a situation in which the Republican Senate recognizes the certificates from the state legislatures of the swing states recognized Trump is the winner and the Democrats in the House, recognizing the certificates that award those swing states electoral votes to hide and then we're in a real kind of nightmare situation. We're in what you call the Chernobyl situation. We're talking again about the possibly of President Trump rejecting electoral defeat in 2020 with Lawrence Douglas, and his book is called Willy, Go President Trump in the looming election. Meltdown in 2020 was Masha Gessen, who pointed out that writing about your book in The New Yorker that there is a sense that if Trump really was the authoritarian, powerful figure that he wants to be or that he aspires to be, he would have corrupted the process so much that the chances of his losing would have been almost eliminated. Yeah, That's right. I mean, one of the things I try to argue in the book is that I think there's no doubt that Trump is a has, you know, authoritarian instincts. Att. The same time I call him. Ah, weak authoritarians. Bye week authoritarian again. It has nothing to do about his impulses, rejecting a pretty profound authoritarian I think it recognizes the fact that you know, we still do have some pretty durable institutions that are capable of opposing him..
"masha gessen" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Surviving autocracy journalist Masha Gessen suggested president trump was quote the first major party nominee who ran for president but for autocrats Gessen warns that this political mindset can be lethal as trump response to crises like the corona virus pandemic and protests against racism and police brutality born in Moscow my suggestion is written extensively about Vladimir Putin and his rise to power and joins me now to examine how trump is transforming the American presidency and how he's wielding power in these times of crisis and welcome much aggression thank you great to be here to have you I guess I'd like to begin by asking you to explain what you mean by he ran as an autocrat or Iran for autocrat many people thought he ran because he wasn't gonna be an autocrat or Democrat he was going to be a businessman who's gonna lead us as business leaders with leaders well that's another way of putting it isn't you know what kind of businessman does Donald Trump conjure in his presidential campaign we actually still continues he continues to sort of rail against government continues to campaign you know his analysis of budget but you can hear him campaigning constantly against Washington and against government so the kind of businessman that he conjured was behind you know in an old fashioned family business who makes decisions unilaterally who has a strong chain of command who doesn't have a lot of complexity part of one of his billion and words you know the complexity of American government the complexity of American politics he kept saying it's simpler than that it's you have been lied to you've been hoodwinked the government does currently cut exist at all and what you really meant well he was dismantling the US government the system of regulations the system of checks and balances the complicated system by which we decide how we live in this country you see him as a serious threat to our democratic institutions not to I think I think at this point is much more than a threat I think at this point he has damaged our democratic institutions such as in a way that maybe they were well let's let's talk of do do I have a connection here I'm not sure I do because I can hear you yes hello okay no I I didn't hear you so I was concerned about that we was going to ask you about how you define autocrat I mean calling for protesters to be constrained and dominated you written about that certainly in terms of autocracy but also militarizing police in cracking down in times like these of turmoil with the other dish with crispy disrespect for civil rights these are for you the hallmarks of autocracy yes Sir no I wouldn't say those are the hallmarks of a pharmacy there are typical of autocrats but you know the hallmarks of a talk this year the hallmark of a democracy is wanting to govern or rather to rule without assistance about those without being constrained by the courts and with a big check by Congress and Donald Trump has made it very clear that that's exactly how he wants to run government whether it's by attacking the courts on Twitter and in real life whether it's by firing a series of Spector's general most recently I believe yesterday here his partner such a trial which really does destroyed the system of checks and balances but if you're refusing to release his taxes on taking and going to court to to to try to validate his refusal to release his tax returns whether it's ignoring rational subpoenas in order in the White House employees not to attend hearings in Congress those are the hallmarks of America also my Darling forgive me but you also mentioned in your own writing a long order and bigotry and segregating immigrants and scapegoating them and so forth so this it it's a big picture that we get her in a composite way of what autocracy is of course but I'm telling you that that's not the definition of cricket at the end of my description of Donald Trump our definition of a saga see somebody in the great government unilaterally without checks about and that is what Donald Trump as far as to I suppose also to a great extent by it's very regulatory that he regards autocrats with such respect particularly Vladimir Putin whom you've written a great deal about actually in particular I'd say he is an across the board admire of tyrants dictators and autocrats he you know what he's talking about Kim shin nun and talking about how they fell in love but he is praising Verdugo detectors cracked down on what he sees as the crackdown on the drug trade or he talks about the beautiful way in which the Latimer Putin controls the population you know all those expressions of admiration they're actually consistent across the board and let me actually bring in flavor put no for a moment with you if I may because some there is there was a sense of at least a movement toward democracy under Gorbachev or democratization with class notes and perestroika and certainly efforts toward democratization but there weren't any long standing unless you include Alexander Kerensky I guess very brief ephemeral notions of democracy in Russia we have had long institutionalization is of democratic institutions in this country and I'm wondering if the consolidation of power and domination an autocracy by president trump can be paralleled anyway to put in despite those historical differences because Putin was able to move through all of our consolidation and get the old guards behind a mistrust doing something similar in your judgment with them in corporate type all over here well actually I wouldn't say that that and that is not a description that I could use of how Putin consolidated power Clinton basically offered the oligarchs he that's right he said you know I'm going to you you can surrender your political power in exchange for personal and financial security an elegy to trump at all not really but I mean you know you raise an interesting question how do we compare across cultures and across histories and obviously on the one hand it's problematic because of all of it at any time we can say that the difference time or that's a different place there's a different leg legacy and we must be aware of that on the other hand that's how we learn we learn from history and we learn from what is going on in other places and in the book I actually use a the cavalry proposed by anger and sociologist named Paula monster who has written a I think an absolutely brilliant thousand page book on new autocracies on how a talker she's come into being in post communist countries and I'm very careful with the way our clients language because obviously post communist countries are dealing with a different set of circumstances and different cultural and political life he then and I just think this at the same time you know that's how we get knowledge sort of look far from each other and we learn and will make adjustments as necessary for the model to be most useful my suggestion is our guest muskets and staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book surviving autocracy something you and I want to go back to analogy to put in for just a moment cross cultural though it may be and sometimes there are a lot of nuances it seem to be ignored with those kinds of cross cultural analogies I realize but you've actually written a good deal about what we know about Chernobyl and what we didn't know about Chernobyl and in nineteen eighty six in a response to it and as it's been more information I think as you pointed out there's been more of a risk revealing of the disregard for human life and of how there was this is mono maniacal focus on actually pleasing leader to make the leaders seem on airing and all powerful again features of an autocratic leader so there is really a sensibility there that we can talk about it we can parallel is not yes and that is that is it better than one of the scariest parallels because I the very first time I read on our runs the origins to counterterrorism voice was one of what when I was a teenager and I had just recently immigrated from the Soviet Union I remember being absolutely struck by her insight that H. a tele chair in government details and regime can we build only where it's possible to disregard it nasty population where people are basically expendable so L. large enough country but also countries that whose whose leadership is willing to just sacrifice human life in the name of terror in the name of power in the name of consolidation and it always seems it please some lives were always expendable in the United States but the lives of white people especially white number not expendable until Donald Trump came to power and his reaction to the corona virus was absolutely shocking to me because it shows a disregard for any kind of human life right and because his his willingness to suppress information and suppressor response in the name of what he sees as his power unit his his approval ratings the economy which he sees as essential to maintaining approval ratings that's you know he's willing to sacrifice all kinds of lies for that and that is a new low for American politics who's talking about Wall Street while people were dying and so forth I'm not sure do you in your analysis hold him culpable for the numbers the extra shocking extraordinary numbers of deaths as a result of the pandemic well I mean that that's not that's not my area of expertise so I go by other peoples accounting we have at this point clearly stand I think the new analysis today that came out is that about sixty thousand the original I'm I'm wrong about that not I think it was the latest we heard was about thirty six thousand lives were lost because of the delayed reaction it is conceivable that this country because the boy didn't have pandemic altogether clear you know an actual and I think in the United States if the reaction to news from China in early January have been timely and serious enough so when we can put a number on it but even you know what what are we going to have to go over tens of thousands of what lives were lost because of this government's disregard for human life and and and that's why its disdain for expertise and trump's Monaco focus on power what's even worse is that more lives will be lost and are headed into a an ill advised okay catastrophic re opening that we have already seen across some of the country and the rest of the country is not is now joining and you know even in New York where I live where I think the leadership has been more prudence I think the sort of Trumpian inertia trumpet momentum for opening is playing a role and I think it's real to me too fast well you've written I believe that the pandemic allows him to govern as he likes with the kind of arrogant ignorance this lethal and you also say when people try to write him off as being incompetent that incompetence is is militants so the threat itself absolutely I think that especially early on in the trump him president trump's presidency people sort of looked at him without all while his of the phone how much damage is really going to do and I think that shows a basic misunderstanding of history and and contact you know we like to imagine that the monsters of history where these evil masterminds who had a grand design and then fooled everybody by putting an end to end and and and in fact I think things are much more scary humanity has stumbled are the darkest moments a lot of leaders you know that the scariest leaders in history war not very smart very educated people are they wielded in militant ignorance it's comes as Tongan expertise it's his attack on government if this attack on politics and most of all it save his his attack on complexity he.
"masha gessen" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"In nineteen sixty eight rumors began to swirl that a massive student walk out was in the works the students were beginning to draft a long list of demands to present to the school board he wanted bilingual education more Latino teachers and an end to corporal punishment only in their friends continued organizing and then on Friday March first something happened at another eastside high school almost two hundred students walked out the blowouts had officially begun coming up on that you know USA the walkouts truthfully hi Daniel postal worker you know I wanted to there was fear he was real fear stay with us nothing I guess next time on the New Yorker radio hour Masha Gessen explains how civil unrest alongside a pandemic could be the perfect opportunity for an aspiring autocrat we will bring into the state of extreme anxiety and while that can be revolutionary opening but it's also very likely an opportunity for the autocrat to weaponize things in certain that's Masha Gessen next time on the New York Rangers tomorrow morning at ten on ninety three point nine FM W. NYC WNYC.
"masha gessen" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"NYC on the next all of it journalist and author Masha Gessen joins us to discuss her latest book surviving autocracy which looks at how the trump presidency has changed the United States the lens of her own experiences growing up in the Soviet Union plus Kerr Swisher editor at large for recode and contributing New York times opinion writer weighs in on the president's efforts to regulate social media this is W. NYC FAM H. D. N. A. M. New York all of it NYC analysis we're coming up with our selections from our latest get live with all of it virtual book club event held in partnership with the New York Public Library first our conversation of Cape Elizabeth Russell about her book my darkness tells the story of a fifteen year old girl involved in sexually abusive relationship with her high school English teacher then you'll hear from audience questions and my interview with Dr Kerrison Cronin about her research into childhood sexual trauma and later a special performance from Grammy Award winner Aimee Mann music helped inspire some of the early scenes we'll get to all of it I'm Alison Stewart and I meet you on the other side of the news live from NPR news I'm Lakshmi saying under the looming pressure of a pandemic cities across America including Columbus Denver Phoenix Louisville and Minneapolis are recovering from a night of explosive protests over civil rights and against systematic racism and excessive or lethal use of police force that has resulted in the deaths of so many unarmed black men Minneapolis is recovering from yet another night of riding since George Floyd was killed while in police custody on Monday the governor of Minnesota is apologizing after CNN reporter and his crew were arrested on live TV this morning while doing their jobs covering the unrest in Minneapolis is Amy held reports CNN swiftly rebuked the actions of Minnesota state police alleging the arrest violated the journalists first amendment rights Omar Jimenez was reporting from outside a torched police precinct one of dozens of buildings burned overnight across the Twin Cities when he became the story Minnesota state patrol dressed in riot gear placed him in handcuffs without explanation hello Sir he menace another black man caught on tape being placed under arrest capped another night of violent protests over the death of George fluid in police custody humana's book to CNN shortly after he was released it did cross my mind what what is really happening here and I the one thing that gave me a little bit of comfort was that it happened on live TV the Minnesota governor is calling the arrest of Jimenez and the crew inadvertent and unacceptable Amy held NPR news further stirring anger one Mississippi mayor question whether the officers involved in Floyd staff were really at fault he's resisting calls now to step down president trump who this week said he wanted a federal investigation into Floyd's death tweeted when the looting starts at the shooting starts will Twitter put up a banner that says a statement is glorifying violence the nation's capital is now in phase one certain nonessential businesses can open again provided they temporarily stick to curbside pick up Melissa block reports restaurants in Washington DC are allowing outdoor seating on a limited basis since coronavirus is still a significant threat as she announced she was lifting the city's stay at home order DC mayor Muriel Bowser cautioned that this was just a first small step in my mind I actually call it stay at home light gatherings of more than ten people are still prohibited barber shops and hair salons can open it with the required distancing but nail salons no city parks yes but playgrounds no northern Virginia suburbs also begin re opening today with somewhat looser restrictions and on Monday some Maryland suburbs will enter their phase one as well this region is deeply interconnected and local authorities have largely tried to coordinate the response to the pandemic Melissa block NPR news Washington this is NPR and this is W. NYC I'm Chris Venezia a Mexican immigrant who was swiftly deported days after suing federal immigration authorities is now missing in Mexico WNYC's Matt Katz reports Hector Garcia Mendoza had argued that the Elizabeth detention center where he was detained was filthy and all detainees needed to be released eighteen of tested positive for corona virus and Garcia Mendoza was feeling sick he was then deported without advance notice and despite a court order blocking his removal immigration and customs enforcement dropped him off in a Mexican border town known for the kidnappings of migrants attorneys and relatives haven't heard from him since congressional Democrats say the swiftness of his deportation in violation of a court order with seemingly deliberate for more on this story visit Gothamist dot com Dr Anthony Fauci is remembering his old friend and professional antagonise Larry Kramer thought she's the director of the National Institute of allergy and infectious diseases and a native of Brooklyn he spoke with the take away about his decades long relationship with the New York City aids activist that she says while the two men frequently battled publicly they were also friends who help each other in high regard the scare the hell out of the scientific community as well as the regulatory community not to mention federal officials because he was so iconoclastic outrageous in in the way he would confront people to gain their attention Kramer died Wednesday at age eighty four you can hear the entire interview without you on the take away coming up this afternoon at three on W. NYC hot humid this afternoon a small chance for rain a good chance for showers tonight maybe even a thunderstorm right.
"masha gessen" Discussed on Serienweise - Der Serien Podcast
"Sir Yehudi Duberstein goes expanded. Its data he foggy. Meyer Bakersfield Zeke's took could assume fear and was I going to for US Haga to him. No Mazda. Chicago COM OFTEN. Indeed even plans. Christine Ganesha on Panchal SOM- about Simpson Avenue for now Kevin Moby District Baltimore. Kevin More beat does its own rock singer. Songwriter Mitt wasn't volume. Food is our DESTRUC- some Bissan up read wrapped in puzzles country. Often I said at least tickets to the site of wire. He's our Colson. Toiling Baltimore area. The mid forties for twelve million boom department of live on massive stroke needs history also noble. Masha Gessen's as a script. It's kind pezzo. Nado CECILIA DOES. The forecast is based on what is an ISO Kevin Moby portable as it after to invest catch skis. Being how he could have to keep was was Pope Leo Stein been of. Stout is under scrutiny. Before one was much finished US Peter Gabriel's games without frontiers touching beautiful again. Okay the Beatles Austin Bettman some. The text men okay funny also listed if nobody compatible song this fall. Bus T. These a pop bent the almond. Psalms Lower Parma. Okay twin did Oklahoma their arsenals. Zombie decossa furtive bus Tita Montana because the lobby ironsides playing another and she even fewer. Amy MacDonald These shortish singer-songwriter in the month shot hits Hutter de Finna Baden some sleep. The highest the rice and form. What is he now here? Amount OF IRISH COFFEE TO SPA DID STICK FOR DONALD TRUMP. For your exact it was. Let's talk about the society from the House of cards. Okay Michelle notable leaked is gets zillion in spirit a song of US got more unbend. Nam Phenomenon Torch Bent Book Cliffs Bonds of fear of winning Bonnetti deserve zillion booze officials loose from Dallas. Was this feels. I'm few event. Peter Bjorn and John Swedish enough. Obviously what you talking about on Desert Spaghetti Fun Madman for limited swishing Peggy Wood's Don Drake as other better. The songs than field is youtube. Video offers the custody. Posted the social service Lou. Henson knows cobblestones alien.
"masha gessen" Discussed on WIBC 93.1FM
"And I was reading this piece in The New Yorker and it's called the queer opposition to Pete booted judge explained by Masha Gessen and it began she says that by now you may have heard that some queer people think that people to judge is not gay enough and that's actually a piece of right the independent where they pretty much said that they said there was there was a the altar over at the independent said if one more polyamorous coastal queer tells me people to judges again of all scream and then they were responding to a piece where someone literally wrote he's not gay enough and that was another writer in the gay community and then now so there's there's that the New Yorker so basically the opposition is that there are some who think he pushes it too much when it's not an issue and then for the ones who are mad at him and Boyd and like I guess like getting thrown out of or heckling him at some of his events they're mad that he is apparently not head on fire at loud in terms of advocacy for it I don't know that there was like a right kind of level yeah I don't know is there a level is at level five or ten I don't know on that scale is but a judge a three or a five like where's the fall on that scale yeah I I'm I'm just not sure I it is and they seem to cannot this is how she finishes this New Yorker piece what makes booted judging easy and reassuring choice for older white street people and a disturbing possibility for queer queer people who seem to be criticizing him for not not being gay enough is that he is they say that he's too conservative he is an old politician in the young man's body and a straight politician in a game is body that's how the story ends seventy well I think it's just because he's a dork I don't think it has to do with any of the stuff I just think he's a dork I mean seriously think about it Hey give people are just dorks I think he's like the first gay dork I'm I'm not seeing that as like to be mean I think that that's why people don't know how because he's a socialist let's be sure don't say that he's not but he's a nerd he does his hair nerdy he wears nerdy things does he always wear blue pants blue socks I think is every single picture swear reason like blue slacks why would be more of an advocate if he's a politician like why would he go that far like you know I mean I don't think that's in his best interest to do my head's on fire type of advocate you're not going to well I take it like a or C. sorted of and she's trying to walk about those those types of people don't live long in the Senate or in the in Congress I should say yeah those things are a flash in the pan and then I'm just I'm fascinated by this because I've I've read like a number of activists who are yelling at each other and their pieces there is a peace within your post talking about how apparently some of them got kicked out of one of his campaign events in New York announcer coming out we have some Florida man we have some more stop and frisk and also how Michael Bloomberg paid off everyone so that they can criticize and when he did things like all I don't know get a third term for himself as mayor in New York so we kind of we got a lot to get into you don't want to miss a bit of it as we move on cal tech is a great partner for the show and they make a lot of really cool things and they're very innovative the room probably innovative what they do I've just it shot shows I've been telling you about they introduced the P. seventeen pistol which is an entry level pistol that is really mean anybody can use it but it's great for new shooters and it's also really good if you're if you want to train on a budget because it has very comes at a very low cost twenty two LR ammo and it ships with three sixteen round magazines right on the box you can just record symbols eyes for pennies on the pop in sixteen plus one capacity you aggressively really light weight has a fiber optic front sight adjustable rear and it.
"masha gessen" Discussed on KQED Radio
"With the ice house for a few months, you know, little while the other time I broke up with someone but yeah, we had a pretty significant argument being, you know, right before rep before we were asked politely to leave. DJ though, Yasha. What do you want to hear? Say these days here about once or twice a week. And if I'm here like on a weekend, let's say that I'm probably working on something. So I'll have my laptop, and I'll just edit whatever any editor just work on emails or whatever for a few hours, and then inevitably all end up people watching, and just sort of jelly again, with ice house itself, whatever the vibe is that particular day. There've been times I've been here, and there have been like a wedding parties. Let's say they've asked me to like sit with them play. They might have like too much beer. They might have too much food, and you end up talking to people when he gets wet up and whatever the excitement is, it's a space where I I just like lift here, you know, sort of run through the spectrum of motions, and I don't, I can't think of too many places outside like an actual home or an actual workplace where that would be the case. Brian Washington, at the west Alabama ice house in the Montrose neighborhood of Houston. I'm David remnant. Thanks for joining me today. I just want to mention that if you missed our program last week, I'd love it. If you would give it a listen, Masha Gessen, join me to.
"masha gessen" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM
"The modern gay rights movement was born fifty years ago at the stonewall uprising in Greenwich. And what it's in our laws and our culture has been absolutely remarkable. At the same time. We're seeing a backlash in Russia and other countries around the world. LGBT people, make the perfect scapegoat. Because we stand in for everything. We stand for the west, we stand in for all the things that have changed in the last quarter century that make you uncomfortable. And of course, no Russian things that they've actually ever met a gay person in person. So that makes it really easy to create the image of the villainous people. Masha Gessen on LGBTQ rights in the past in the present. And in the future, that's just ahead on the New Yorker radio. Hour. Live from NPR news in Washington, I'm Janine Herbst. President Trump says he will reimpose his threatened five percent tariff on Mexican imports. If Mexican officials don't cooperate on border issues. Mexico said Friday, it would send about six thousand troops to it. Southern border to stem, the flow of migrants from Guatemala as part of an agreement with the US to slow migrants heading north reporter, James Frederick, visited a migration checkpoint, about thirty minutes north of the Guatemala Mexico border, where he says, there are around thirty five migration agents soldiers and federal police on duty the.
"masha gessen" Discussed on KQED Radio
"And then she lost her life savings the town in which she live fell apart the research institute where her husband worked fell apart. She lost her sense of self in the world. I think I mean, it struck me that that story made a pretty good case for the post-soviet transition being not so great. So once I figured that out and kind of made the grandmother more central character, the book became a lot better. It has definitely no longer boring. Yeah. I read it in like one night and that of sleeping, and they're all sorts of reasons for me, not to to read it at all are never vita one night. No. But it's it's a really it's a really great book. Are you thinking writing fiction book? I thought we weren't gonna. Yes. I am definitely I thought word. We don't have to talk about. Yes. I am. I it's a yes, I'm working on it. Was working on that. Okay. All right. You wrote a piece called rules for talk recy-, and it was written directly after the election. Right. So in the very much in the heat of the moment, but I wanted to revisit that. And see how much of that you still think holds. And where you were wrong. And right, right. So the first rule for surviving autocracy is believed the autocrat when he says he's going to do something nasty chances are he will. So one thing that you said that might lead to you know, when they say they're going to lock her up. It hasn't happened yet. What do you think that means? It means the journalists should never make predictions is what it means. And I think that the way that that piece happened was that I'd like probably many people in this room. I've been to a disastrous election night party and kind of crawled away without saying goodbye. And and when I was on my way home. Biking from from queens. I started getting phone calls and emails from people saying what do we do? Now. Like, well, how should I know like I had to flee my country. Obviously, I don't have the answers. But but as it's a long bike ride. So as I was biking, I was thinking that there are actually thinks that that I learned from living in a country that was what democracy had had had was dismantling itself. Right. And it was creating an autocracy. And I think that there are things that I learned about how you survive mentally and spiritually in in that. But. I think that the the rule believe the autocrat is. I completely stopped standby. And what I was trying to get across with something that I had learned actually in the process of reporting. My Putin book was that when I went back and listen to his interviews and his press conferences. And fortunately, the man has such a small presence that it was possible to listen to everything he had said it and study it in some detail. So when I did that I realized that he was out there. He said exactly what he was planning to do. But people both in Russia, and in this country had ideas about what he represented that had nothing to do with what he was putting forward. Another rule is the institutions will not save you. Do you think they've held up a little bit better than you would expect? I don't actually I don't think they've held up better than expected. And I think the damage has been able to do has been profound and his perhaps been more profound than I thought that. I mean, I think the cabinet confirmation has been great amazing he'll station of that right now. Here's the greatest addition of the supreme court that just stands I think exposed with the curtain pullback in a way that that may be sort of emotionally could have been suspended a couple years ago. But I don't think we could have imagined. I mean, it is shocking. What do you say to the argument that it was a great example, the real kind of norm breaking there was the refusal to seek, Merrick garland or even to discuss carbon by Mitch McConnell. Right. So this predates Trump. Yeah. Trump didn't come out from other space. He did not actually come from Russia. He came from here. And we'll have time. All right. Thank you. You all New Yorkers Masha Gessen talking with her brother, Keith guessing and between the two of them. They've written more than a.
"masha gessen" Discussed on KQED Radio
"Hour. I'm David Ramnik. Masha Gessen is one of our keenest observers of Russia and Russian politics. He grew up in the Soviet Union and its latter days emigrated with her family to the US and then return to Russia as a reporter. So she's got a unique perspective on the US Russia relationship and all through the Muller investigation. She warned people not to expect some kind of magical revelation or smoking gun of collusion between Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump. In two thousand eighteen and she sat down at the New Yorker festival with a guest. She knows pretty well. Her younger, brother, Keith guessing. So this is a completely self service panel Oregon to talk about ourselves entry Asia other introduce ourselves. So this is my brother Keith. Keith guests in is a founder of the magazine and plus one and he teaches journalism at Columbia University. He's written two novels. Most recently a terrible country which came out last year. Okay. This is my sister. Masha. She is the person who in whose shadow dwell. But in fact, it is more like she is the sunlight. Yes. It does raise grove. Okay. So I very happy to one q. Yes. I will ask the first few questions if that's okay, that's fine. So in in late two thousand thirteen and because of various unpleasant developments in Russia, you moved to Moscow. I mean, you move from Moscow to New York after being away for twenty years. You've always worked kind of in both countries. But when you went back to Russia, you became a Russian language journalists working for Russian publications, you were publishing books and articles in the US, but your day job was as Russian language journalists. And now you've moved back to the states and become primarily an English language journalists. So what has that been like? Well, it's actually has been lovely. There's you know, there's a line in your most recent book that is absolutely brilliant. You describe a character who in some ways, there's a certain resemblance to me. You're observing the narrators observing this character walking around Moscow and says nobody liked him here. And that put him at ease. I think the experience of not being liked by anybody it might be sort of character building. But it's really lovely to just not have that on a daily basis. Like, I hardly getting death threats. It's lovely. Talk about our parents right now. Right here. When I think about our immigration our parents were in their mid to late thirties. And I grew up thinking, well, you know, basically their lives are over. Right. And so the only possible reason they could have emigrated was for us. And and I kind of felt like you had mixed feelings about it. About our immigration, and you kind of left home. So I I was like, well, they just it was just me. They did for me. So I better do good. He did. Well, thank you. So from your perspective is that what do you think I think that for them? It was very important. Not to see us go through the experience of applying to university and experiencing what they did which was just really explicit discrimination against Jews. It's one thing to know about injustice and unfairness. And it's another thing to come face to face of it. And have it be completely sort of unabashed? I think for both of them. It was a formative thing. And so they didn't want to see us go through that. But mostly I think they thought they were doing it for themselves and they were like in their thirties. They they had their entire lives ahead of them. But they really I mean, I I've thought about it a lot. I've thought about what kind of courage, it would've taken to just step into the abyss. And they had they need nothing about this. Right. They read a few letters from people who had emigrated, and so they they stepped into the abyss. But but our dad or mom died along time ago about our dad always responds by saying we thought of it as a great adventure. Do you want to talk about politics a little bit? Sure. Yeah. Okay. Why you didn't like hearing about our parents? I found that very therapeutic. Thank you. Has being here and writing about Russia changed your perspective in terms of what Americans need to know and need to hear. What's great question? I mean, I think that the perception of Russia has really gone through some very strange for mutations in the last. I've been here for for just under five years, and it's been a very strange five years for Russia's perceived in this country. You found yourself in some somewhat curious position of having been a person who was writing about Putin and kind of warning about Putin for a long time. And now you're in the position of saying. Hey, relax. Sometimes I go on Twitter. I see people calling you a paid propagandist for Pineau. No amazing. I've been pulled. Russia's puts them chill pay pay some propaganda. There's an online community of anti-trump Russian immigrants who. Yeah. Had they had a long thread going about how I was what I was intimidated or paid into what they see as supporting Putin. Yeah. And they say that because you have been skeptical all along I of about the evidence, but then about the significance of the Russian interference in the election. Right in a way, I was one of their originators of that of that narrative. Right. When I wrote a book about Putin. And find myself in the very strange position of saying come on, you know, he's not that kind of monster. He's a different kind of monster. But but not the kind of monster who who's masterminded the takeover of the entire western world. He doesn't have the mind for the kind of masterminding among other things. Do you feel do you feel partly responsible for this narrative? What an interesting question. Yeah. A bit. But. The problem with writing with journalism or anything of writing it is so impossible to predict how much influence what you're right. We'll have and what kind of influence we'll have and what sorts of anxiety and imaginary is it will tap into. I can acknowledge sort of contributing to that narrative. But I don't think that I can take too much responsibility for it. And I also want to estimate the number of people who buy, you know. Mount fiction books and actually read them. But you're at the fascinating article for the New York Times magazine earlier this year on so-called Russia hens. And you positive kind of dichotomy in that article that some people basically think that everything that has gone wrong in the Russian American relationship over the last twenty five years, which is basically everything and consistently regardless of who was in charge. Was attributable to Russia and its intransigence in its own trajectory. And then there are those who think that it was about American policy at American failure to move past the Cold War narrative, and I think that that's that's actually almost perfectly describes the stories that I have been writing versus the stories that you've been writing you mean, I am more likely to blame the US. Yeah. That's that's my strong position do ever worry that that actually overestimates American agency. And it's kind of backhanded imperialist position. That's an interesting question. I mean. Yes. And no, yes. I mean, I think the article kind of traced American policy toward Russia in the post Cold War era. Through the sort of people who are inside the government and the State Department and national Security Council who were kind of running Russia policy and the article began because I had watched. Obama seem to really want to de escalate tensions with Russia and really emphasize Russia in general, which struck me as objectively correct? Right. Russia is a troubled country that that is declining. Right. Unlike its neighbor to the East China, which is not declining. And that was the kind of Obama argument right for. Shifting our focus to the east and yet under Obama, you get that Ukraine crisis, and eventually the hacking of the Democrats, and I was like well how you know, why did that happen here? You had a president who had made his preferences. Pretty clear is there a deep state, right, which when I started working on this. This had not been popular. By the right, or at least, I had not come across it. And I mean, the partial answer is yes. Presidents. Come and go policymaker, you know, the people who they appoint come and go. But there is this kind of small core that moves between the State Department, the national charity council and one of the kind of really surprising things to me about them was just how strong their views were and you talk to them and they're quite convincing. For example. Some of these people were in the kind of center of debates over NATO, and whether it should be expanded. And their position was we have this historic opportunity to push the sort of zone of security as they called it. But other times, they call it the free world, right or the west closer to the borders of Russia. Right because eventually Russia, we'll come back and threaten those neighbors, which you and you could say, well, they've been proved correct. I was just going to ask. Yes. Or you can say this was a self fulfilling prophecy, right? And I don't know if the US had had a very different policy, whether we would have had a totally different result. I don't know. Let's gears so wrote this book and. I know that the the process of writing up, of course, quite interesting and lengthy, right? You said to write something fairly different. Can you talk about that? I so it's basically kind of a story about a guy who goes. Who is actually a loser and goes to Moscow to take care of his grandmother. At the request of his swashbuckling, entrepreneurial older, brother. Who's not based on Marcham? He has this fantasy that she's going to tell him stories about socialism. And this will then he'll write these stories down. And then it will help him get an academic job. And then he shows up there. And she can't remember who he is much less detailed narrative about Stalinist Russia. Yeah. And then I finished this draft. And I read it, and it was horrible. And I cut all that stuff horrible. It was just boring. It was just really really boring. What I realized, you know, a few years into the process was that actually the grandmother needs to be kind of central figure not just as a kind of domestic background, but her life needs to make the central argument about what happened after the Soviet Union fell apart. And as you know, I changed some details, but it did strike me that our own grandmother's life. You know, she hated the Soviet Union, and she was delighted when the Soviet Union fell apart..
"masha gessen" Discussed on The Jordan Harbinger Show
"And then say, and so there's no way we could pull off the bin Laden raid. And that's the the same argument if I put in the US context, so you know, Masha Gessen, I think it is New York. She advances this all just no way. It's just not that important. It's not it's not designed to get academe elites in the left of New York City to engage with that content. The tweet is stupid and a million people looked at it by the wedding. And they believe it, and you will see them refer to it in person, we had Americans go under the direction of Russian trolls and show, but a protest for and against Islam in Texas. You know, we had two people one dressed as Hillary Clinton climate a cage at a cheesecake factory in Florida under the direction. Of Russia's influence operator, so tamasha in this sort of argument is like it doesn't have to be any more sophisticated than whatever it takes to get people to do that. And and this is the part with social media misinformation. It's not designed for the highest most educated people it's designed for those that don't have a good balance on what is trusted information. That's interesting as well. Because you do see these things, and you go who the hell believes this? But then it's like five seconds later. I'll say God Twitter's full idiots, and then it's like, whoa, wait. I think I just answered my own question. Yeah. Right. I can give you a terrorism parallel. Please do which is al-qaeda's versus ISIS shirt main al-qaeda, if you look at what they did they design this incredible plot to take down the World Trade Center highly successful. You don't it's one Cajun at terrorized the United States committed us into wars. Then they sit around for a decade trying to pull off extremely elaborate plot, and it's a little bit of Dr evil from Austin powers, right? Where he would be like right, soothing super so complex. It'd be like we'll. Why don't you just kill us? It powers is like no don't, you know, it's like sarcasm have sharks with lasers on their look at ISIS, though. Isis stepped in and said, if we want to kill a hundred people, we don't have to create a hydrogen peroxide bombing cook it in whatever and do this and that and so guys who weren't very smart and didn't get too complex terrorized the entire world in ways L Qaeda. Never did. If you think back part of the reason, we miss Russia and disaffiliation was summer of two thousand sixteen they would do eight attacks eight days, you know, around the world using guns and radios and social media coordination. It's not sophisticated all so if you had thrown that out to a bunch of military planners. This is the Masha comparison they'd been like that. That would never happen. That's just too simple. Why would they do that Dr van in a pedestrian area, and has many people's you for you, stab someone and get shot? Same result. No cost. No planning. Really, you know, you have people doing it remotely. And so the the very simple. Anyone can pull it off if effectively done over an enduring period is far more effective. And I think that's where you see the elite academic audience sort of missed the Russia disinterest Agnes the forest through the trees in a lot of ways. Yeah. You're listening to the Jordan harbinger show with our guest Clinton watts. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by com. I've.
"masha gessen" Discussed on KCRW
"Then it can't be left up to profit making industry to protect Masha Gessen in the New Yorker as staff writer, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me. Well, trust is pretty low here in California between public health officials trying to stop the measles outbreak and some parents who are lying to them. Some parents are telling health investigators that their kids are vaccinated when they are not Salmiya Carla Mongla is a health reporter at the Los Angeles timeshare about this high. Hi, we'll tell us about this who are these parents. And what are they saying to public health investigators? Yeah. So one of the basic things that are public health department does is try to control outbreaks. So once there are a couple of cases, they go and find everywhere that someone with measles, for example, had visited so you went to a Starbucks. They go to Starbucks. They try to figure out who went there. You went to a hospital. He went to the they'll get elected everyone at the contact the people who went to those places ask them, if they're vaccinated offer them vaccines. If they don't wanna vaccine they quarantined I'm like, very intense effort to make sure that diseases John spread. And so what they've been noticing recently is that when they do this work. They call up a parent. They say, okay, your kid goes to the school. Is this other kid who is measles? Does your kid had the vaccine the parent will say, yes, they'll move onto the next kid five days later that kid will be in the hospital with measles or someone else will have gotten measles. And we'll say, oh, I got it from that kid. And so what they're learning. Is that it's not a sort of basic practices? They've had in place for a really long time to control diseases aren't working as well as they once did because it seems like parents aren't complying and it's not completely. Sure, why that is some of them. It seems like just don't want to say they didn't vaccinate their kid. They don't take them to the doctor said the public has never finds out. These people were sick until it escalates until someone else gets sick. And it makes it harder for them to keep the size of these outbreaks small, but don't they have don't they have to have records in the school to say whether or not their kid is accelerated. Yes. So there were some reports when there was a measles outbreak in LA 2017 in the Jewish orthodox community in LA that the schools wouldn't hand over the lists. So there have been all sorts of different variations on this non-compliance. But yes, the school should have less than a schools aren't always the biggest problem sometimes like in one of the cases, I wrote about it was a kid at a tutoring center. And so they called the bomb. If you go to the same tutoring center as this kid who's sick. The long said my son is vaccinated later. They find out that the kid was not back state. If you've got measles, he gave it to his brother anti gave it to his uncle. And is it because they're afraid that they'll be forced to vaccinate their kid if they admit that their kid has unvaccinated, you know, I don't think so because you can't really be forced into vaccinating your kit. And you if you are your kids presumably already in school, and if they're already in school, they either had their vaccine or they have a medical exemption to get out of the vaccine, I think they're just afraid of admitting to it and having to take any sort of public health advice what they will tell the families. Okay. You have to quarantine your kid. That's a lot of work. You cannot anyone come over kid can't go to school. But it doesn't really they can't really force them. You know, pin them down and back Sonate them. Well, they enforce them by saying you can't go to school unless you get a vaccine. Yes. The law. And so how is that law working so in general that laws working really well? So that we passed the California passed that law after the measles outbreak in two thousand fourteen two thousand fifteen that was in Disneyland. And so now everyone in school in California has to have their vaccine unless a doctor says that they have a medical reason not to get back and so immediately after the law took effect like station rates, John we now have serve statewide kindergartners. Which is when they check for the vaccine so kindergarteners have a high level of immunity that you protect them from measles. Like ninety six percent of kindergartners have their shots for measles. But there are a lot of people who now have medical exemptions. And some of them are a little sketchy. So like the number of medical exemptions. Why way up like it went up like four hundred and fifty percent, and there's not an based on the date on like who should have a medical exemption their way more people with medical exemptions than should have them. So there's something a little fishy going on there. What is the suspicion? Are they going to or sympathetic? And they're kind of fast and loose with the medical exemption letters. So when the law went into effect there were some ads ad from doctors saying, you know, come to my clinic, pay me eighty dollars. Here's a list of reasons why you're right deserve a medical exemption. And they said things like asthma and psoriasis an ex and many medical conditions that should not qualify you for vaccine exemptions. And the only people who are shed have a medical exemption are people with an allergy to something in the back scenes, but even that's really rare. They've changed accidents of you, don't there aren't a lot of allergic reactions that people have or someone who's undergoing a child undergoing chemotherapy for cancer can't have a vaccine. So the these a lot of these doctors are giving out it seems medical exemptions for kind of soft reason that are a little bit questionable. And so that's why we're that's part of why we've seen this increase in medical exemptions. So is that a loophole in the law that should be closed or are they? Are they doing something outside the law, these doctors? So it depends. So it depends on who you ask the law was actually written that way. So it was a concession. That was made when they were passing the law to say that doctors have full discretion to decide what constitutes a medical exemption. So they're the sort of people who are more sympathetic to people to that scene. Say it's not a loophole. Like, this is the way the law was written. And, but if you talk to the legislators who passed that law, they're kind of looking at the effects of this law. They passed that overall has been affected. This is the place where we need to tighten medical exemptions. Because that kid I was talking about who went to the tutoring center and got measles. He and his brother both had medical exemptions for all vaccines, which again is odd because all vaccines are made of different things. There's really unlikely that you would be allergic to all vaccine, so they had medical exemptions for all back from a doctor who lived several hundred miles away, which kind of points to the idea that maybe they shopped around for the right kind. Doctor that they were looking for. Well, okay. So and meanwhile, what is the situation with measles here in California. So we haven't had an outbreak in a while. We actually our rates are pretty high in California. So it isn't a huge concern for us, but other states where all these outbreaks happen here. Now kind of saying, oh, we should pass a law like California's which would probably bring down the number of outbreaks, but we clearly are not free from all problems when it comes to preventing more outbreaks, and is it because well, we just we almost in fact, we did for awhile radical measles completely in the United States. Is it that people don't understand that this is a serious disease? Yeah. It's kind of Roenick. I think that when you have the little baby. And you think okay. What is a vaccine seems scary? It seems scary to give your baby a vaccine because you're not you haven't maybe ever seen the consequences of measles. And so that seems scarier than getting measles because you've never seen measles. And that's true for every dizzy is like most people have not seen polio in. So they can't imagine sort of the very serious effects of that. And so it's like the success of the vaccine has sort of hurt the public health efforts. Ironic. Thank you so much. Yeah. Thanks for having me. My pleasure. That's samya. Carla Mongla she is a health reporter at the Los Angeles Times. Coming up. Why people don't tip there? Uber and lift drivers part of it is that star rating system, you know, if we don't have a bad vibe when we get in the car, or there's no fighting we don't get into politics things that are controversial. There's no reason why rides shouldn't be five star almost all the time and overdrive driver talks tipping. And why so few writers actually, do it? That's next on press play. Larry parole. We'll get.