9 Burst results for "Mary Francis Berry"

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

03:17 min | 1 year ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"National light, founder of the John Birch Society, Robert Welch in 1958 and Dr Berry a write in your book. That the marches of that era were carefully patriotic to avoid red baiting by opponents of civil rights. So can you put the one in the context of the other? Yes, indeed. Because the clan raised the batter of racism and communism that all that black folks were doing an outside agitators who were Communists were making them do whatever they were doing at the John Birch Society. Ah raise this banner and the politicians in the congress. There are a lot of southern segregationists in the Congress. The United States would and their rhetoric raised this so every time there was a march or something, there would be out front. Ah, these symbols of patriotism and people would speak of patriotism and people would Describe what it is. They were the activist what they were trying to do in terms of just implementing what the American creed required, Not anything that's foreign or comes from any account of other country And because, in fact, the FBI harassed activists we know that now the history of it and in fact tried to disrupt the movement and the whole argument that they gave to Ah, successive presidents that these were a bunch of communists who were trying to Ah To do this, so this was very important. The other thing is that not just the bird society, but the clan. You said that there was backlash. Yes, there were bombings, even not just rhetorical backlash. Bombing of Reverend Fred Shuttlesworth Church down in Birmingham when the Birmingham people were first trying to engage in boycotts and sit ins and voting. Ah, protests. Ah, Luckily, nobody was in the church. Ah, so nobody was killed is not like the bombings we know about later. But using violence was something that the Klan did very often We finish now with 1958 and we move on to 1968. And I want to thank our very special guest for today. Mary Frances Berry. Whose new book is History teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times. Thank you so much. You're an inspiration. Thank you for having me and as we go out during his days as a civil rights organizer, Andrew Young, who went on to be mayor of Atlanta, U. S ambassador to the United Nations and a congressman Said that Nina Simone's music was the soundtrack of the movement said every home I went to had Nina Simone. I mean everyone for all the people in the civil rights moment. It was an identity. Unquote. And so we go out with a little bit of Nina Simone from the first album, released in 1958. His little girl blue cow during morning Yu WN time. The latest news Live.

Nina Simone John Birch Society congress Mary Frances Berry Birmingham Dr Berry United States Klan FBI founder Robert Welch segregationists United Nations Andrew Young Atlanta congressman U. S
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

07:26 min | 1 year ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"Holder, the former attorney general Obama who, in fact Wass trying to get in the University of Alabama, and they've called out troops and done everything else to stop her from doing a personal experience. And a 2nd 1 is that my little brother when they started sit ins in Ah in Nashville. I was in elementary school, and he marched the whole class out with him in front of them down to join the movement, as Children did everywhere Despite the fact it's teachers kept yelling that then come back here. Come back here. They just kept on going very vivid, and it's not every day we get to hear Mary Frances Berry talk about being 17. So, Dr Berry. How should history remember? Eisenhower is a civil rights? President Eisenhower was pretty good. He would, what? Today we'd call him say, a moderate Republican. If there any left around. Ah today and there were a lot of black people who voted for as and Howard. I remember some of the high school teachers saying we're gonna vote for him, even though he's a Republican, because you know, it's about time we change parties we keep having you know, Democrats and he seems like a reasonable person has been a successful general and so on. Ah, and he was very good on the little rock crisis, although some people said he only took action because he hated anybody trying to oppose authority since he had been a general at a military guy. Ah, the implementation of the desegregation of the armed forces that it started, of course earlier kept going smoothly during his watch, and Herbert Brown male who was his attorney general, and he was from New York. Wass, one of the great civil rights attorney generals. He was one who advised as an hour that he needed to put subpoena power in the law for the Civil Rights Commission, so they could order people to testify in part to give cover to victims who wanted to come and was scared. Ah, and to make others come and as an hour. That's when he slammed the table and said, Yeah, let's get the facts on top of the table. Let's do it, and Brownell and his Justice Department tried AA to enforce the civil rights laws that were on the books. Even though the voting rights Act they get past 57 was fairly weak, and we needed another one later on. They did. Ah yeoman job given the Times of working, and so I think he was pretty good. Joyce in Lawrence Value on WN Marcie. Hi, Joyce. Hi. Um, I was very interested in this conversation. I'm just enjoying it. I was almost tan. About the time that we're talking about 58 I lived from Arkansas. I lived in Arkansas and some of my friends. Later helped to these segregate little rock. They just got all the black people. Black kids whose parents would allow them to go and that's how they did that. Um So, um, about this time, Martin Luther King decided to come to Pine bluff to my town. And I had been Following him reading all about him and was really excited about Seeing him. Um and my mother didn't She was behind sort of behind the times. As so the community the black community was segregated. Pretty much and that was thinking about the differences between Nick and my Luther King. About Taking it slow with regard to the segregation and just going with Or, uh, participating in the marches and everything. And just did you tell our screen it that your mother wouldn't let you go see Martin Luther King at your church so she wouldn't let me go? And I was really, really upset. So when I went to the mailbox the next day, which was on the one Dave Street in our community. Um Where the quote white Mystery that the whites used to get through the black neighborhood. That's why I thought it was paved. Um I decided to lay down in the street and make the cars go around me. Don't ask me why. I was just always enough in that child, and I just decided that's what I would do. I'm one girl sitting Joyce. Thank you so much for that wonderful memory and Collection of memories. Joyce raised the issue of the pace that people would push for desegregation and differences within the activist community about that pace. Yes, Well, I think that the Ah Some people were afraid to do anything. I remember in Nashville when my mother was asked by a reporter what she thought about school desegregation. And they put the story on the front page. She was just walking down the street. And she said, Well, I don't think Negroes should go where than that wanted. So what she came home. She told us that in the relatives that she had said that and she said, because she was scared. That's why she said. It didn't have anything to do with how she actually felt, and some of the older people didn't think change would ever come. They didn't understand That protest is an essential ingredient of politics and that you have to take risks. Which is what I write about in my book. You have to take risks, and they were worried about what would happen to the younger people. Even the You know what the Montgomery bus boycott. There were some people who are not willing to. Ah, they didn't try to interrupt it, but they were scared. So you had the different younger people, though, and Children everywhere were anxious to come out and be activists. Now this series is on the evolution of the American culture was so we're looking at both progress towards Social justice. And the backlash to it. Here's an example of the backlash from that air era. 1958 was the year that the ultra conservative John Birch Society was formed. Here is the founder Robert Welch. Opening the door to labeling any movement he didn't like as communist inspired or communist infiltrated our immediate on most urgent anxiety, of course. Is the threat of the communist conspiracy. And well, it should be. Are both internationally and within the United States, The Communists are much further advanced and more deeply and French gun is realized by even most of the serious students. Off the danger among the anti Communists. Almost every day I run into some whole new area. Where the Communists have been penetrating and working quietly for years until now. They are in virtual control off everything that is done in that slice our corner of our.

Joyce Martin Luther King attorney President Eisenhower Nashville Wass Civil Rights Commission Mary Frances Berry Arkansas Dr Berry Obama Herbert Brown Holder United States Pine bluff University of Alabama Howard John Birch Society
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

09:41 min | 1 year ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"Way to get your right Isto. Finally the law and defied the lawful authorities. I'm worried about their future. Don't worry about Diego Kid's future. I've been struggling with democracy long enough. They know for good marshal in 1958 but it didn't convince the white mobs in Little Rock. And when I say mobs, it's not just a pejorative when the school year started. In September 57 President Eisenhower had to send U. S troops the U. S military into Little Rock to put down the violence that have broken out as resistance to integrating the schools. Here are the 1st 2 minutes Of Eisenhower's legendary announcement. Hardly any of you have ever heard this before. I'm sure on September 24th 1957 To make this talk. I have come to the president's office in the White House. I could have spoken from Rhode Island. Of what I have been staying. I felt that in speaking from the House of Lincoln Objection. And it will My words would better convey Both the sadness I feel in the action. I was compelled today to make Man. The firmness with which I intend to pursue this course. Until the orders of the federal court at Little Rock Can be executed. Without unlevel interference. In that city. Under the leadership of demagogic extremists. Disorderly mobs have deliberately prevented the carrying out of proper orders. On a federal court. Local authorities have not eliminated that violent opposition. And under the law yesterday issued a proclamation. Calling upon the mob to disperse. This morning. A mob again gathered in front of the Central High School of Little Obviously, for the purpose of again, preventing We're carrying out The court's order relating to the admission of Negro Children. To that school. Whenever normal agencies prove inadequate to the task. And it becomes necessary for the executive branch of the federal government. To use its powers and authority to uphold federal court. The president's responsibility is inescapable. In accordance with that responsibility. I have today issued an executive order President Eisenhower on September 24th 1957. Also that year, Eisenhower created the United States Commission for Civil Rights, and My Next guest served on that commission for 24 years. Dr. Mary Frances Berry was a member of the U. S Commission on Civil Rights from 1982 2000 for And served his chair from 1993 to 2000. For in the Carter administration. She was assistant secretary for education in the U. S. Department of Health, Education and Welfare as it was known, then Now she teaches history at the University of Pennsylvania and she has a new book called History teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times. Dr Berry. We're honored to have you as part of our series the eights. Welcome back to WNYC. Well, thank you, Brian. After listening to what you said, which reminded me of the period. I thought, boy, I don't have anything else to say. That was great. That was really great. Thank you so much, And I think you have a lot else to say, because you're in that period and part of the book so Relevant to the Eisenhower clip. We just heard you write about the first national event for the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Dr King's Man Group in 57 A march on Washington with its main focus the violent resistance that was taking place against Brown the desegregation ruling. Can you tell us a little bit of that history like how the SCLC came to be right or why the Supreme Court's Brown decision wasn't just accepted a settled law. Well, I was in Nashville, Tennessee, going to high school when Brown was decided a segregated has school, of course and walk down the street on the day that it was decided and saw the head lad and said to my high school teacher who was with me, we were going shopping for something for the class graduation. And I said, Oh, does that mean that the Children will all go to school together next year, Miss Hawkins? And she said, Not so fast. Mary Frances not so fast and she was right. S o. That is a memory for me. That is indelible. Also, we had had, of course, among them re bus boycott Ah, which Rosa Parks after a number of people had sat down on buses, and nothing had transpired. Ah kicked off the southern Montgomery movement with boycotts, which were eventually successful. The brown decision was not implement it, but the fact that it existed meant that the lawsuit that was fired by filed by the people in Montgomery One in the Supreme Court because it said that segregation had to end and there But boycott was successful. So you had that happening. Also, SCLC was formed by the ministers. After the boycott, and Martin Luther King was selected to lead the whole thing and the monk dump the Ah prayer pilgrimage, which you mentioned in 1957 in Washington, D. C. Wass, his coming out party. It was the first time Martin had made A speech at a national meeting. It was a huge meeting and what you talked about was the need for the right to vote, he said. Give us the ballot and we won't have to ask for anything else because if you give us the ballot Then, indeed, the officials will be responsive to us. Well, he wasn't exactly right. But it was an important milestone, and that's when he came out as the leader, and everyone acknowledged him as the leader. And now Eisenhower had to deal with. The aftermath of these domestic incidents as well as international affairs. This was appearing in which African countries became independent Ghana first and others get their independence. And they sent representatives to the United States right there in New York to the United Nations and some and they set up embassies in Washington, and they went back and forth by autumn. A bill between the two And they were segregated and left out of restaurants and other public places along the highway, and they're all kinds of protests, and the Canadian ambassador was embarrassed and as in how are invited him to lunch to try to make up for it. Ah, and at the meeting of the camp, his cabinet President as an hour agreed to set up a civil rights commission and to ask for a voting rights act in 57 to work for that in the Congress, and that the commission would have subpoena power in order, as he said, to put the facts on top of the table about all these events and to make recommendations that might help to solve the problem, So it was international events as well as domestic events, and the commission was established. After a hard fight by the segregationists in the Congress, and he worked at 1958 as an hour did to appoint people to it and get them through the Senate. While strong Thurmond, the senator from South Carolina, filibustered all the time, and the commission got set up in its first hearing was in Alabama, where some of the commissioners were threatened. One had the woman commissioner had someone try to get in her room. I mean, it was terrible, but this was a landmark in the history of civil rights. Listeners. We want to continue in this segment with listeners, oral history elements of our serious the eights for today who listening right now. Was involved in the civil rights movement in 1958 in anyway, we would love to hear a little bit of your story. How do you remember the backlash in those days or maybe on the other side of the fence you yourself or people? You knew a part of that backlash. Did you or did they change over time? Or could the seeds of the modern culture wars be seen? Even then? Can I say Brian, just say my own personal recollections is I guess I was 17. I was in the bus station and Huntsville, Alabama. Passing through there I was Ah, after high school, I was out doing a road trip as it were. And went to the segregated window where the blacks had to go to bath food while the bus stopped and there were police there and state troopers and everybody and they said, You can't come in here, you know, just get back on the bus. And so we said, Well, what's wrong? And they said, using the n word That inward woman is trying to get in the University of Alabama and she's not going to get in there and we're gonna stop her because we got police at all over the state, and she won't get her b A. Ah let you say black a into that school, So get back on the bus, and we did, And that was Vivian Malone. Who is a relative, Ah, Eric Holder, the former attorney general Obama who, in fact Wass trying to get in the University of Alabama, and they've called out troops and done everything else to.

President Eisenhower Washington Brown Southern Christian Leadership Martin Luther King Supreme Court president Little Rock President Alabama Brian United States Commission for C Central High School of Little D. C. Wass University of Alabama Education and Welfare Isto Dr. Mary Frances Berry
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

09:11 min | 1 year ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"Um, decades past and some of the cause and guess we had in the Siri's for the current moment, so no cost today, But you can add your thoughts by tweeting at Brian Lara. Way back up in the woods among the ever went into country, Johnny people Never ever under right well but playing guitar just like ringing a bell. Yeah, it's Chuck Berry's Johnny B. Goode, which, according to Rolling Stone was the first rock and roll hit. About rock and roll stardom, and it came out in 1958 when Chuck Berry was rock and roll's most consistent hitmaker after Elvis Presley, and now we continue with our Siri's The Eights. A brief history of the culture war decade by decade since World War two today we arrive in 1958. No, it wasn't at the sixties, but the seeds were there. The civil rights movement was in full swing. But there wasn't yet a counterculture per se that weren't hippies yet, or much attention to feminist or environmental causes a little bit. But there were beatniks in 1958 suggesting stirrings of alienation with 19 fifties mainstream culture. Homosexuality was illegal, and I think every state But the Supreme Court ruled in 1958 that a magazine describing gay relationships was not in and of itself. Obscenity under the law. The lower court had ruled that it wass. The court also took a stand against school segregation in the South by ruling that Brown versus Board of Education and Really every Supreme Court decision applies to state governments, not just the federal one that was groundbreaking in 1958. There was no legal birth control pill yet, but Doctors were prescribing a newly approved drug called in Ove it, which was officially to treat menstrual disorders. They were prescribing them. Two women who really used it his contraception. NASA was established in 1958. So was the John Birch Society. The first microchip was developed in Alaska became a state In 1948 Ronald Reagan was president of the Screen Actors Guild. By 1958. He was giving speeches Fergie across the country that were anti organized labor. Here's a short excerpt from a radio interview that Reagan did in 1958. In which he extolled the virtues of G management and accused labor leaders of waging class warfare. There are still those in labor who want to keep it a contest a battle, don't you think? Don't you think this is Labour's growing pains? Actually, yes. Yes, I think this is the first time they have ever. These recent years felt and had the strength they now have. And I think they're still coming out of Again. Remember, I'm speaking of isolated individuals told Cora course they're still of a tendency to say Well, now is our chance. You know, unless you're Stephen. Yeah, and they've got to outgrow this. They've got to realize that there's no room for this. Any more. So that was Reagan and 58. In 1958 22 years before being elected president and immediately firing the federal air traffic controller's union busting the union. But also in 1958 Senator John F. Kennedy, just two years from being elected president published a book called A Nation of Immigrants. Imagine a young presidential hopeful Publishing such a thing today. But here he is in 1963 echoing the theme of that book when he spoke to the 50th anniversary meeting of the Anti Defamation League. America was to be the great experiment. A testing ground for political liberty. A model. A democratic government. And although the first task was to mold a nation On these principles. Here and this continent. We would also lead the fight. Against tyranny and all continents. This is a great inheritance. It is a proud privilege to be A citizen of the Great Republic. I realize that we are the descendants of 40 million people. Who left other countries. Other familiar scenes. Come here to the United States to build a new life. Make a new opportunity for themselves and their Children. I think it is not a burden but a privilege. You have the chance to share that great concept among all of our people. Make this really as it was for them. A new world a new world for us. And indeed, for all those who looked to us That is what this organization is good for for 50 years. That's what this country is good for 200 years. That's what this country will continue to stand for. So President Kennedy and again in 58 he had published a short book called A Nation of Immigrants. He was working on a longer version when he was killed in 63. And it Wass Published posthumously, by the way as an addendum to that the Berlin Wall had gone up in 61 through the lens of today's wall debate. It's kind of eerie Tio here Kennedy is president. Talk about the meaning of a wall to families. Here's the most obvious. And vivid demonstration. Of the failures of the communist system for all the world to see, we take no satisfaction in it. Laurette is, as your mayor has said. On offense, not only against history bought an offense against humanity. Separating families dividing Husbands and wives and brothers and sisters. And dividing a people who wish to be joined together. And on that note, we welcome our 1st 1958 Guest Fred Kaplan, who you may know, a slates War stories columnist. He's been on on here many times in that context, but he's also the author. Of a book from a few years ago called 1959. The year Everything changed. We figured 1959 is within our margin of error. So hi, Fred. Welcome back to WNYC. Good to be here. So Fred Kaplan. What were the beets? And when did they first become a thing? Brother beats. This is something that that that makes it distinctive about the late fifties versus the sixties, the transformations and nascent revolutions of the late fifties, which we can talk about in some detail. These were not the product of the baby boomers. People like me. I was born in 1954 right in the middle of the baby boomers. These were people who grew up Ah, during road war to some of them during the the Depression, emerged from World War two with great hopes about the new future. And were disappointed or disenchanted that the world really hadn't changed that much and were rebelling against that. Ah, this was you know, I someone like I know I was five years old. I was four years old in 1958. I I wasn't ready to go spawning campus revolts, but they took the people who did later. Took their inspiration, some of them quite knowingly from things that people were saying and doing and riding in the late fifties. Tell me more about the source of the rebellion. As you understand it from Your research and from people for people. I mean for white people in this country, and we'll deal with the civil rights movement of 1958 and a full segment with Mary Frances Berry. But for white Americans, the fifties were supposed to be this mythical golden ear. Ah family and prosperity. Chris. The Cold War was going on. But domestically when Trump says, make America great again, it's sort of the 19 fifties when he thinks America was great the first time. All right, So what were the beats rebelling against? But there was this undercurrent if you go back and read things at the time that this great rebellion against complacency you had Eisenhower, who at the time was the oldest president that there was and he looked like your grandfather, You know, he had a heart attack and a stroke. The whole there is a calcified political establishment. And yet at the same time, I mean, a key moment that I I start my book with this that happened on January 2nd of 59. Was that the Russians launched a rocket called the Lunatic also called Mista Wichman dream, and this was the first rocket that broke through. The gravitational pull of the earth and started rotating around the sun like a planet. Now. This was made a big time magazine, which was quite hyperbolic and its day..

president Senator John F. Kennedy Fred Kaplan Ronald Reagan Chuck Berry America Supreme Court Siri Brian Lara Elvis Presley Anti Defamation League Berlin Wall John Birch Society Rolling Stone NASA United States Stephen
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

11:41 min | 2 years ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"On Mondays Brian Lehrer show will have Brooklyn queens congressman Hakeem Jeffries extra relevant right now because he's on the house Judiciary Committee which will hold its first impeachment hearing on Wednesday so we'll get a preview from congressman Jeffries Monday at ten AM here on the Brian Lehrer show it's a best of Brian Lehrer show on tape today so we won't be taking your calls this is America are we ready democracy in the year ahead or asking lenders impeachment protect democracy and when does it weaken it we are with the first of two historians were having with us this hour Mary Frances berry from the university of Pennsylvania and former chair of the United States commission on civil rights she is also author of the book that came out last year history teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times and got to go did you want to finish a thought that you were heading to before the break and then take another call resistance is fuel in a democracy resistance is actually part of a democracy I often say that protest is an essential ingredient of politics your vote you put people in office and then you put pressure on them to get them to pay attention to your issues I just the Attorney General seems resistance or something more militant or something then protest well if you need to sit in you go to jail if you need to you as in terms of the Congress if it's part of the resistance as I think the house of representatives is part of the resistance if the guy does something bad is violate the constitution so you think it does and is live views of power then you move to impeach the person in that case impeachment becomes part of the resistance let's take another call Gretchen in Minneapolis higher on America are we ready to hi I'm interested in more about our high crimes and misdemeanors and what that meant with our founding fathers and what it means to dare how with what we think it means today with that president trump's style of government has been referred to as transactional my understanding was that the framers of our constitution were very very concerned about in boiling the president with other heads of state because democracy wasn't like the date default position it was kind of no and the way government happened often was with chances state working deals behind closed doors so I'm wondering is to and that's the kind of sounds like what is happening now well first of all the presidents have always made deals with other heads of state behind closed doors in any administration I mean there are some things that they don't talk about in public it's been going on from the beginning of the Republic and that would not be considered a hack run and more do this demeanor unless what they were making a big deal about was something that was an abuse of power if it's a deal I like I think it was great if it's a deal and they'll like I would think it was awful case depending on what the policy is because presidents by the way all based policy they a part of their electoral mandate is to make and change policy now have grown to love the misdemeanors clearly understood it seems to me by them the people who wrote the constitution what you meant when you said those words had crimes you didn't mean somebody trespassing or somebody doing something like that you meant a matter of state of have purpose and that this would be something that if the president engaged in it it would be illegal and the Congress could increase the person of for that not just the president but other officers could also be in peace so I think that they have a clear understanding of what was but it was not that people could not talk to other heads of state or have things set to them or make deals with them you've pointed out the difference between trump situation and the previous ones is that he's got a re election coming up within a year Andrew Johnson did not Richard Nixon Bill Clinton how do you think that should inform the balance between having Congress decide on his removal as maybe what we would call an act of representative democracy versus letting the people be his jury a direct democracy if that's the right term well I think that it depends on what the Congress or the hell switches in gays in the impeachment thinks the president is likely to do that would harm the Republic between now and the election if they think the president is going to do something going forward that in fact will destroy democracy or undermine democracy the writ large and that the country just can't stand this waiting till the elections and then they should go ahead and and and try to get the Senate to agree with them so to remove him from office if they think it's just a matter of yes we think this is illegal but it's a close case and we think what he did is wrong for it whatever it is but it doesn't mean that the holiday democracy will be undermined before the election but I think they would decide differently I think Nancy Pelosi had some calls about that when she said earlier in the year that she didn't want to go forward with impeachment list was that part of it as a matter of last resort sold that for I would come down well the way before we leave Andrew Johnson completely aside my understanding my understanding of history is that he was acquitted in the Senate by one vote for the very sad reason that many senators were for some civil rights after slavery but not that many not as many as the new president who would replace Johnson would have been for how much is that your understanding Benjamin wave as I mentioned earlier he was considered to be more radical from Ohio and more person who would have what we would call today a progressive policy on the issues of how to deal with the cells and so on and many people also considered him to be enough noxious first overbearing personality much is a file Johnson obnoxious for other reasons so basically they didn't want him to become the and his views on economic matters were not something that they were supportive of so it was not you know we don't want him so this gave pause to some people a little bit away from the question of whether Andrew Johnson committed high crimes and misdemeanors his Andrew Johnson as much as I dislike his approach and hate what he did in be telling the treatments or a bill the Civil Rights Act and all of his races sort of behavior that violating of the tenure of office act was not a hack ran is to be no this is America are we ready democracy in the year ahead were asking when does impeachment protect democracy and when does it weaken it will switch historians in mid stream here but keep going we thank university of Pennsylvania historian Mary Frances berry also author of the twenty eighteen book history teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times thank you so much all right thank you and with us now Jeffrey angle founding director of the center for presidential history at Southern Methodist University and co author of the book published last year called impeachment in American history Dr angle thank you for joining us on America are we ready I get to talk again you said that the framers of the constitution saw impeachment as a check on excessive power what kinds of scenarios did they most have been mine you know what's happening is that they went through a series of hypothetical scenarios during discussions at the constitutional convention which sounds somewhat Yeary for our own day for example the pose what if a a friend president were to somehow deceiver December ally in order to gain office and the answer generally was with that of course they should be removed from office well for for president were to work with a foreign power to somehow influence their office so then that person should be removed what if a person were to you know use their office to bribe people around there but others to do things with the power of the office not so much taking bribes but rather giving bribes if you will the power of his office well that's a person should be removed from office and and my school last one at that I think is really pertinent which was a part of the discussion few months ago was what if the president were to use his or her pardon power in order to essentially you know get all of his co conspirators off the hook and thereby improves on innocents well then that's the person I should be impeached so basically all of their concerns were about a president who would use the power of his or her office for their own personal gain and not necessarily for the good of the state why would a treason and bribery as the only crimes that were singled out by name not murder not robbery we could go down a list why just those two you know what one of the first things we need to take a step back on we think about the language is used here is that much of this language is actually a change in employed by an engine crew at the very end of the constitutional convention so in many ways the language is done to be elegant as much as is to be precise and the treason and bribery I think are two crimes that were very easily understood that fit the generals of how they perceive a president to require impeachment you don't get impeached they argued for being a lousy president you don't impeach for what they refer to as mallet ministration that's a bad administration you can impeach for having bad policies what you get impeached for is for putting yourself above the state so putting yourself about the state in a treasonous manner working with an enemy to undermine the state yourself of the state in a bribery matter and again the sense that they had of bribery the very definition of a head of bribery is really different than we have today in the twenty first century we typically think of bribery as someone offering money to get a public official to do something they're greater concern and this they're good immediate sense of the word bribery was about a public official using their money from their office or the power of their office or the influence of our office to get someone else to do something that they wouldn't otherwise do SNC giving as opposed to receiving sums of bribery and course high crimes and misdemeanors was basically a turn of phrase sometimes as almost similar saying you know Franks and beans or half or balls and strikes is basically at that time that everyone understood it's time to mean a crime not against another person but a crime again against the people simply have a Cola kind of to that point Lisa in queens New York City your honor are we ready.

house Judiciary Committee Brian Lehrer Brooklyn congressman Hakeem Jeffries
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

11:32 min | 2 years ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"Would impeachment threaten or weaken it our guests will be to impeachment historians Mary Frances berry from the university of Pennsylvania former chair of the United States commission on civil rights and Jeffrey angle from SMU co author of impeachment in American history doctor berry first she is also author of the book that came out last year history teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times Dr very so nice to speak to you again welcome to America are we ready alright I think I'm ready to ready to and listeners are you ready do you have a question about the place of impeachment in our democracy or when do you think impeachment makes a democracy stronger and windows removing an elected president we can it now we're not debating Donald Trump right now get that much we're not debating Donald Trump right now we're asking as a principal when does impeachment make our democracy stronger and when does it weaken their doctor you said the framers of the constitution saw impeachment as a matter of law but also as a political matter what's your understanding of how they saw that balance in terms of what would make the best democracy well the impeachment was sort of a safety valve the overriding principle was that officials should be elected the president should be elected I mean that's preferable be in a democracy but they wanted to make sure that there was a remedy if in fact the president did the things that are in article to like in fact in an article one if the president overstepped the bounds of his authority and engaged and what they call high crimes and other misdemeanours and so on then there would be some way to get rid of the person but they saw it as an extra in extraordinary remedy not updated daily remedy and that you could argue and I've they probably would have agreed that if we saw democracy at risk and we could clearly show that that was the case democracy means meant to them the representative government if we saw it at risk by the official who was in office then we should do something at impeachment was a remedy before the next election took place you said the impeachment of Andrew Johnson in eighteen sixty eight is the most like Donald trump's why in terms of democracy that one well because what Andrew Johnson was accused of there were a number of things and the articles of impeachment but in the main the Republicans in Congress were opposed to him being opposed to their policies and they were sick and tired of his behavior as a person and also his opposition to things like the policy on race toward the Friedman who and then freed as a result of the war and his opposition to almost everything they tried to do so they set a trap for him they passed the law which prohibited him from of getting rid of the secretary of war who was in office and then when he violated it and get rid of the get person the trap close and that was sort of the the smoking gun as it were he had violated an act of Congress is the tenure of office act as they were talking about was probably illegal anyway because the president has a right to get rid of officials the Senate advises and consents on nominations and a bright lens this would be to let somebody go that would certainly hobbled Donald Trump but what was it the the will you describe this as a law passed specifically to entrap Andrew Johnson so they could impeach him for reasons that were really other than that that they really wanted to impeach him four that doesn't sound very democratic well they thought it was democratic to engage in the policies that they were trying to implement on the question of race and the future of the free people and the future of the country at the end of the civil war and reconstruction they saw that is a valid democratic goal actually the reason why Johnson ended up getting impeached although he was a purely obnoxious personality and one could see a lot of reasons for a impeaching him if you want to just get rid of it all was because the point it was pointed out that if you really were left office the guy who would replace him who would come into offices as it was no vice president with somebody who was obnoxious to most of the radicals to soul who so it didn't work out and it was political in the end that's the whole point of it it was a political thing that they did to try to get rid of him and they said a nice trip but it didn't work so let me play a clip of Attorney General William Barr from just ten days ago in which he sees the number of investigations against Donald Trump in what might be similar terms I don't deny that Congress has some implied authority to conduct oversight is an income as an as an incident to which legislative power but the sheer volume of what we see today the pursuit of scores of paralog parallel investigations through an avalanche of subpoenas is plainly design to incapacitate the executive branch and indeed is touted as such so doctor berry that's why bara who's a big advocate of presidential power has been for a long time not just of Donald Trump presidential power versus the executive branch of the legislative branch he thinks the president should be immune from most investigation so we can't can't good harass those policies at out of doing is real job how do you see that balance either for democracy in general or in this case from the perspective as a historian and also because I happen to have been a political official in both the Carter administration and the Clinton administration so I've seen it from the inside and the outside the soul it is true that Congress has oversight power and they're supposed exercises but the Congress can if it wants to try to tie the elm a president to keep them from implementing things that the Congress doesn't want done if they are of a different party just by the frequency and the number of investigations now with top there's a lot to investigate that was locked investigate with Andrew Johnson but it is indeed true that there can be that's a good way in fact if you were in opposition in your part of the resistance that's a good way to keep the president from doing many things the other side of that though is that and I saw this with Bill Clinton and with Carter who was not of course being impeached with us all with the effective congressional inquires and stuff can be and with Clinton the impeachment it can't get the president mostly distracted by the impeachment process and therefore not able to put his full time and attention to the extent that he has any intention of all all the issues that come up of the day they are issues if you're president whoever it is that you know every minute there's some playing so if you pile on enough of them then you can still you can sort of keep them from doing anything but you can also make it impossible for him to make good decisions even if he knew well about things that happen on a daily basis let's see the phone call Tanya in fort worth your honor America are we ready hi Tanya hi how are you good yeah the question or comment yes Sir I do what I'd like them to to talk about is the role of Congress even if the president is popular with the public if he's doing things that are truly unethical and and organs are constitutionally goal where could she convert falling shouldn't be a partisan process at all and I'll hang up in the thank you so much doctor the welcome president is doing something that becomes a high crime others misdemeanor or an abuse of office and it can be proven and then it doesn't matter that the president was elected Congress should go about impeaching the person but they should do it as quickly as possible so as not to interfere with what I was talking about earlier the day to day business of an executive trying to run the country if you're going to impeach somebody and you're going to take about a law office go ahead and do it and then let the next guy comment but to drag it out but you have to be careful to make sure that it does rise to that level rather than characterizing something said that does not many people have said that there are things that presidents do that they would and peaceful before but that the Congress doesn't seem to want to impeach him for that they're preaching the purpose of the hills but if it is on it is if it rises to have crabs and others misdemeanors then or abuse of office then in fact Congress you go right ahead with what it's doing another clip of Attorney General Barr from that speech the other day and get your reaction to this the fact of the matter is that in waging a scorched earth no holds barred war of resistance against this administration it is the left that is engaged in a systematic shredding of norms and undermining the rule of law so bar sees the word resistance representing something not so compatible with democracy that he thinks is taking place right now your book is called history teaches us to resist so how do you see the word or the act differently from the Attorney General well hard in a democracy part of what you're able to do is to use pressure and civil disobedience and legal matters anything you not using violence but to protest and to try to get the government to change its policy we see that Mel with the people are interested in the climate change issue for example who stopped the football game yesterday Harvard Yale the this is something that people have done and what my book is about as examples of how it's been done with various presidents over time and how it works because it gets policy change it gets the attention of the people who are involved so there's nothing wrong with resistance bars just wrong about that what is wrong related to break I have to take a break and then we'll continue that thought more with Mary Frances berry and your calls this is America are we ready democracy and the ahead.

Mary Frances berry Jeffrey angle SMU university of Pennsylvania United States ten days
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

06:55 min | 2 years ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"Mary Frances berry from the university of Pennsylvania and former chair of the United States commission on civil rights she is also author of the book that came out last year history teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times and got to go did you want to finish a thought that you were heading to before the break and then take another call distance is fuel in a democracy resistance is actually part of a democracy I often say that protest is an essential ingredient of politics your vote you put people in office and then you put pressure on them to get them to pay attention to your issues I guess the Attorney General sees resistance or something more militant or something then protest well it is and if you need to set in you go to jail if you need to you as in terms of the Congress if it's part of the resistance as I think the house of representatives is part of the resistance if the guy does something bad is of valley the constitution so you think it does and is live views of power then you move to impeach the person in that case impeachment becomes part of the resistance let's take another call Gretchen in Minneapolis higher on America are we ready had gotten hi I'm interested in more about high crimes and misdemeanors and what that meant with our founding fathers and what it means to dare how with what we think it means today with a president trump style of government has been referred to as transactional my understanding was that the framers of our constitution we're very very concerned about in boiling the president with other heads of state because democracy wasn't like fifty default position it was kind of new and the way government happened often was with chances state working deals behind closed doors so I'm wondering is to and that's kind of sounds like what is happening now well first of all presidents have always made deals with other heads of state behind closed doors in any administration I mean there are some things that they don't talk about in public it's been going on from the beginning of the Republic and that would not be considered a high crime or misdemeanor unless what they were making the deal about was something that was an abuse of power if it's a deal I like I think it was great if it's a deal and they'll like I would think it was awful case depending on what the policy is because presidents by the way all based policy they a part of their electoral mandate is to make and change policy now absolutely misdemeanors clearly understood it seems to me by them the people who wrote the constitution what you meant when you said those words had crimes you didn't mean somebody trespassing or somebody doing something like that you may as a matter of state of have purpose and that this would be something that if the president engaged in it it would be illegal and the Congress could empiece a person for that not just the president but other officers could also be in peace so I think that they have a clear understanding of what it was but it was not that people could not talk to other heads of state or have things set to them or make deals with them you pointed out the difference between trump situation and the previous ones is that he's got a re election coming up within a year Andrew Johnson did not Richard Nixon Bill Clinton how do you think that should inform the balance between having Congress decide on his removal as maybe what we would call an act of representative democracy versus letting the people be his jury a direct democracy if that's the right term well I think that it depends on what the Congress or the house which is in gays in the impeachment thinks the president is likely to do that would harm the Republic between now and the elections if they think the president is going to do something going forward that in fact will destroy democracy or undermine democracy the writ large and that the country just can't stand waiting till the elections and then they should go ahead and and and try to get the Senate to agree with them so to remove him from office if they think it's just a matter of yes we think this is illegal but it's a close case and we think what he did is wrong operative whatever it is but it doesn't mean that the holiday democracy will be undermined before the election but I think they would decide differently I think Nancy Pelosi had some calls about that when she said earlier in the year that she didn't want to go forward with impeachment list was that part of it as a matter of last resort sold that for I would come down well the way before we leave Andrew Johnson completely aside not understanding my understanding of history is that he was acquitted in the Senate by one vote for the very sad reason that many senators were for some civil rights after slavery but not that many not as many as the new president who would replace Johnson would have been for how much is that your understanding Benjamin wait as I mentioned earlier he was considered to be more radical from Ohio and more person who would have what we would call today a progressive policy on the issues of how to deal with the cells and so on and many people also considered him to be enough noxious first overbearing personality much as they found Johnson obnoxious for other reasons so basically they didn't want him to become the and his views on economic matters what about something that they were supportive of so it was not you know we don't want him so this gave pause to some people a little bit away from the question of whether Andrew Johnson committed high crimes and misdemeanors Andrew Johnson as much as I dislike his approach and hate what he did in be telling the freedmen's bureau build the Civil Rights Act and all of his races sort of behavior that violating of the tenure of office act was not a hack.

Mary Frances berry university of Pennsylvania United States
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

10:23 min | 2 years ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"Of how they saw that balance in terms of what would make the best democracy well the impeachment was sort of a safety valve the overriding principle was that officials should be elected the president should be elected I mean that's preferable be in a democracy but they wanted to make sure that there was a remedy if in fact the president did the things that are in article to like in fact in an article one if the president overstepped the bounds of his authority and engaged in what they call high crimes and other misdemeanours and so on then there would be some way to get rid of the person but they saw it as an extra extra ordinary remedies not a day to day remedy and that you could argue and that they probably would have agreed that if we saw democracy at risk and we could clearly show that that was the case democracy means meant to them the representative government if we saw it at risk by the official who was in office then we should do something at impeachment was a remedy before the next election took place you said the impeachment of Andrew Johnson in eighteen sixty eight is the most like Donald trump's why in terms of democracy that one well because what Andrew Johnson was accused of there were a number of things and the articles of impeachment but in the main the Republicans in Congress were opposed to him being opposed to their policies and they were sick and tired of his behavior as a person and also his opposition to things like the policy on race toward the Friedman who had been freed as a result of the war and his opposition to almost everything they tried to do so they set a trap for him they passed the law which prohibited him from of getting rid of the secretary of war who was in office and then when he violated it and get rid of the get person the trap close and that was sort of the the smoking gun as it were he had violated an act of Congress is the tenure of office act as they were talking about was probably illegal anyway because the president has the right to get rid of officials the Senate advises and consents on nominations and a bright mints this would be to let somebody go that would certainly hobbled Donald Trump but what was it the the will you describe this as a law passed specifically to entrap Andrew Johnson so they could impeach him for reasons that were really other than that that they really wanted to impeach him four that doesn't sound very democratic well they thought it was democratic to engage in the policies that they were trying to implement on the question of race and the future of the free people and the future of the country at the end of the civil war and reconstruction they saw that is a valid democratic goal actually the reason why Johnson ended up not getting impeached although he was a purely obnoxious personality and one could see a lot of reasons for a impeaching him if you want to just get rid of it all was because it before it was pointed out that if you really were left office the guy who would replace him who would come in the office since it was no vice president with somebody who was noxious to most of the radicals too so so it didn't work out and it was political in the end that's the whole point of it it was a political saying that they did to try to get rid of him and they said a nice trip but it didn't work so let me play a clip of Attorney General William Barr from just ten days ago in which he sees the number of investigations against Donald Trump in what might be similar terms I don't deny that Congress has some implied authority to conduct oversight is an income as an as an incident to which legislative power but the sheer volume of what we see today the pursuit of scores of paralog parallel investigations through an avalanche of subpoenas is plainly design to incapacitate the executive branch and indeed is touted as such so doctor berry that's why bar who's a big advocate of presidential power has been for a long time not just of Donald Trump presidential power versus the executive branch of the legislative branch he thinks the president should be immune from most investigation so we can't can't get harassed those policies at out of doing is real job how do you see that balance either for democracy in general or in this case from the perspective as a historian and also because I happen to have been a political official in both the Carter administration and the Clinton administration so I've seen it from the inside and the outside the soul it is true that Congress has oversight power and they're supposed exercises but the Congress can if it walks to try to had the album a president to keep them from implementing things that the Congress doesn't want done if they are of a different party just by the frequency and the number of investigations now with top there's a lot to investigate that was locked investigate with Andrew Johnson but it is indeed true that there can be that's a good way in fact if you were in opposition in your part of the resistance that's a good way to keep the president from doing many things the other side of that though is that a mass all this with Bill Clinton and with Carter who is not of course being impeached with us all with the effective congressional inquires and stuff can be and with Clinton the impeachment it can't get the president mostly distracted by the impeachment process and therefore not able to put his full time and attention to the extent that he has any intention of all all of the issues that come up of the day there are issues if you're president whoever it is that you know every minute there's some playing so if you pile on enough of the band you can still you can sort of keep doing it his way but you can also make it impossible for him to make good decisions even if he knew well about things that happen on a daily basis let's see the phone call Tanya in fort worth your honor America are we ready hi Tanya hi how are you good you have a question or comment yes Sir I do what I'd like them to to talk about is the role of Congress even if a president is popular with the public if he's doing things that are truly unethical and and organs are constitutionally goal where could she convert falling should be a part of the process at all and I'll hang up and listen to your answer thank you so much doctor the welcome president is doing something that becomes a high crime others misdemeanor or an abuse of office and it can be proven then it doesn't matter that the president was elected Congress should go about teaching the person but they should do it as quickly as possible so as not to interfere with what I was talking about earlier the day to day business of an executive trying to run the country if you're going to impeach somebody and you're going to take about a law office go ahead and do it and then let the next guy comment but to drag it out but you have to be careful to make sure that it does rise to that level rather than characterizing something said that does not many people have said that there are things that presidents do that they would and peaceful before but that the Congress doesn't seem to want to impeach him for that they're preaching that was something else but if it is what it is if it rises to have crabs and others misdemeanors then or abuse of office then in fact Congress should go right ahead with what it's doing another clip of Attorney General Barr from that speech the other day and get your reaction to this the fact of the matter is that in waging a scorched earth no holds barred war of resistance against this administration it is the laugh that is engaged in a systematic shredding of norms and undermining the rule of law so bar sees the word resistance representing something not so compatible with democracy that he thinks is taking place right now your book is called history teaches us to resist so how do you see the word or the act differently from the Attorney General well hard in a democracy part of what you're able to do is to use pressure and civil disobedience as a legal matters anything you not using violence but to protest and to try to get the government to change its policy we see that now with the people are interested in the climate change issue for example who stopped the head of the football game yesterday already the so this is something that people have done and what my book is about as examples of how it's been done with various presidents over time and how it works because it gets policy change it gets the attention of the people who are involved so there's nothing wrong with resistance bars just wrong about that what is wrong listen to break I have to take a break and then we'll continue that thought more with Mary Frances berry and your calls this is America are we ready democracy and.

president ten days
"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

WNYC 93.9 FM

01:38 min | 2 years ago

"mary frances berry" Discussed on WNYC 93.9 FM

"This so called America are we ready to mock Chrissy and the year ahead this hour or are we ready for impeachment hello everyone I'm Brian Lehrer if you know my week they show on WNYC hello again if you don't how do you do and as we said before the news this will be different from the impeachment coverage in the news we will look away from the developments of the day and asked what role should impeachment play in a democracy when would removing an elected president protect our to a democratic foundation and when would impeachment threaten or weaken it our guests will be to impeachment historians Mary Frances berry from the university of Pennsylvania former chair of the United States commission on civil rights and Jeffrey angle from SMU co author of impeachment in American history doctor berry first she is also author of the book that came out last year history teaches us to resist how progressive movements have succeeded in challenging times Dr very so nice to speak to you again welcome to America are we ready alright I think I'm ready I think you're ready to and listeners are you ready do you have a question about the place of impeachment in our democracy or when do you think impeachment makes a democracy stronger and windows removing an elected president we can it now we're not debating Donald Trump right now get that much we're not debating Donald Trump right now we're asking as a principal windows impeachment make our democracy stronger and when does it weaken it with a question or comment for Mary Frances berry.

America Chrissy Brian Lehrer WNYC president Mary Frances berry Jeffrey angle SMU Donald Trump university of Pennsylvania United States principal