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Anatomy of Next: New World with Mike Solana
Mars is a cold inhospitable planet far from earth. It represents one of the most complex challenges faced by engineers. How can we create a new world to create a new world first we have to get there? We can build new rockets with improved propulsion systems. We can build ships that allow us to survive the long grueling trip from earth to Mars we can build robots that will help us construct our new home. And this is just the beginning Mars could be warmed and it could develop a hydrologic cycle. Like, the ones with systems of clouds and oceans on earth Mars could be a place for new ideas and new cultures unfettered by the conventions of earth. Mike Salona is the host of anatomy of next a podcast about technologies and philosophies of the future. He's also a vice president at founders fund. A venture capital firm that makes ambitious investments in companies that are building the future. In a previous episode, Mike joined the show to talk about artificial intelligence genetics and robotics today. We discuss Mars the latest season of anatomy of next explores the science that is bringing us closer to exploring other planets on his podcast. Mike speaks with engineers. Researchers and entrepreneurs about the state of the art of space technology as well as the challenges that remained unsolved. Mike returns to the show to discuss this dream of a new world. Why should we go to Mars, and why should the software? Engineers listening to this podcast. Even care about Mars. Why is this relevant? To find all nine hundred of our old episodes. You can download the software engineering daily app in the IOS or Android app. Store. We have past episodes with venture capitalists, Futurists philosophers authors. Whether or not you are a software engineer, there's lots of content about technology, business and culture in our app. You can become a paid subscriber you can get ad free episodes or you can just use the free features. We've got a nice search ability for finding all of our old episodes. We've got the ability to have conversations with other members of the software engineering daily community, and I'd love to hear your feedback on the app. So you can always send me an Email. Jeff at software engineering daily dot com or semi feedback on anything else. Let's get on with the episode. Digital ocean is a reliable easy to use cloud provider. I've used digital ocean for years whenever I want to get an application off the ground quickly. And I've always loved the focus on user experience, the great documentation and the simple user interface. More and more people are finding out about digital ocean and realizing that digital ocean is perfect for their application workloads. 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And of course, computation get your free one hundred dollar credit at DO dot CO slash S, E daily and thanks to digital ocean. For being a sponsor, the co founder of digital ocean. Moisy Eretz ski was one of the first people I interviewed and his. Interview is really it's for me. I've always thought of digital ocean as a pretty inspirational company. So thank you digital ocean. Mike Salona, you a VP founders fund. Welcome back to software engineering. Daily makes man's great to be back. Yes. So your latest season of anatomy of next is about how to reach Mars and how to turn Mars into a hospitable planet. Why is this an important topic? All right, huge question. So this is actually question I've asked a lot of guests on the show. This is it's something that to a lot of people seems self evident like we just have to go to Mars, but not often that you sit down and really drill into that question. It's a question that I tried to answer in the first couple episodes of the show. I think what it comes down to is basically this human beings to the best of our knowledge are the only species capable of thinking and moving throughout the universe. Unless you think that the universe is just teeming with intelligent life. Which is another question that we tried to tackle at the top of this season. I am not convinced. I don't think there's any evidence for. That. And if that's the case, if we're the only intelligent life form in the universe than that means that we are the only things capable of preserving life. And so so far as you think that life is important, humans are the most important things in the universe and expanding into the universe is away to ensure both our survival and the survival of this. I think you know, phenomenal thing that is that is life life to me is important for a handful of reasons. It's weird. I get pushed back sometimes from people about this. Which is insane. I mean, there are people genuinely are like wise life important why why does any of this matter? And then it's like why think that life is is anti in tropic, which means that if the only thing that that actually it applies order to the world everything else naturally disorders life is life organizes the natural world. And so looking forward this is this is a topic that we really kind of work up towards in the last episode of the season. I talked to. Astrophysicist about just the shape of reality. And the future of the universe itself. The universe is expanding into nothingness. And so my my big I think the high level thought here is that if you care about existence you should care about life. I think life is the antidote to enter. And I think preserving the universe extra is actually a word. What what is the opposite of entropy? Right. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yeah. It should it makes sense. And maybe the maybe that's that's where I believe in extra P. And I think that the human is is the single thing that we know of that can actually yet preserve life, preserve the universe. And then also it's just I think maybe people don't need all of that background. I think for for a lot of people it really just comes down to this spirit of adventure. Right. No. You see you look up into the stars at night. And you imagine yourself on different worlds. And that is just something that is baked into. Too, many many many many of us totally I in fact, when I started working on anatomy of next the first season was all about the way that we talk about the future, and we tackled all of these different technologies that people are terrified of things like nuclear power, genetic engineering. Robots and what I found was, you know, there was a horror story for every one of these technologies that people were obsessed with and it was really hard to challenge that way of thinking and people the one exception to that throughout my investigation in the first season was space, everything when it came to space and space exploration colonization Mars, the average person just naturally want it to go. And I think that's reason enough to follow that calling. But yeah, then if you wanna break it down philosophically, you have to you have to take it to hear it's sort of abstract philosophical place and that comes down to life. And and I do think that I do think it's important in in that dimension, definitely. I wanna revisit the broader philosophical subject. But before we get to the broader philosophy. Let's talk about specifically for engineer. So a lot of engineers are listening to the show mostly software engineers, and they might be thinking. Okay, mars. That's kind of cool. But why should I care? I'm a software engineer. Maybe I'm working at a tech company. It's a big tech company. Maybe it's a start up navy. It's a big legacy insurance company. And I'm just a software engineer. Why should I care? Anything about Mars. Well, I think that it depends on just really what you want to be working on everyday not everybody in the world has to feels the sense that they have to be working on something that their work has to be incredibly meaningful in some in some way. My dad never felt that way for example. My dad likes to go fishing. He was a teacher. He was in instruction. Then he was a teacher kind of went back and forth between the two throughout. Life and he worked to make money to live. And that's I think perfectly fine. And there are many engineers who want to do that. And if that's the case, we have plenty of companies that in our portfolio, even I think it's all over your in Silicon Valley, San Francisco, it's like their companies everywhere that are good companies with part problems that are at least not boring to you to work on. And you're gonna make a good salary, and that's fine. If you want to if you're this other kind of person, which is more like, my mom, who, you know, the actual work that she's doing is incredibly keyed her sense of fulfillment. Like, she needs to know that that what she's working on matters in some other dimension than like her own. She's making money, whatever. Well, then you start then you have to start looking as an engineer yet to start looking at problems that are important for for the world in Mars is important to the world for many reasons, the first is sort of I gave the sort of philosophical groundwork down. But I mean, let's just take a step back and talk about technology. I mean Mars Mars is a series of. Of incredibly challenging engineering problems. Not even science most of the scientists is there. There's some stuff that would be great. If we discovered along the way, but like, we kind of know what we we know what to expect on Mars. We know roughly what sort of challenges will be facing. There's some that we can know until we're on the ground. But, but it's always has to be done is we have to build things that solve these problems. Now in the cool thing about that is like everything that you develop on Mars has this tremendous benefit back home. We're talking about one of the big things that I talked about already talked about in the first half of the second season is tariff forming the idea of turning an alien world into a more hospitable planet earth like or Tara like planet. That means building atmosphere is building oceans growing crops on Mars, genetically engineering the crops to do certain things that they don't do here to survive in an environment. They couldn't naturally survive on in all of those things everything in tariff. Warming Mars, actually has emir. Immediate impact on earth. If we if we have not even just the technology to do these things, but I guess the experience with them. So in the context of the atmosphere, right? I mean, everything in the subject of altering the content of your atmosphere to have a different effect on the planet's temperature is directly applicable to global warming on earth in a way. We're actually doing the opposite. I'm Murphy, We want to warm it up. But along the way, we're going to be releasing chemicals into the atmosphere, basically, experimenting on this planet to reshape it in a more earth like way, I think that a better understanding, their, you know, directly impacts all seven billion of us on earth. If we have the technology in one place, we can start geo engineering, you know, tear forming earth people to talk all the time about, you know, Bernie Sanders was just tweeting about how global warming is akin to like a World War or something. Right. And like, maybe you believe that maybe he believes that. That's great. If you believe that. I mean, someone else said that global warming was as big of a threat as Nazi Germany. And I think that seems that's very. Old statement. I think it's probably a big problem. If you believe that it's that big of a problem, then I don't think that sitting around trying to sort of regulate or only trying to regulate carbon emissions is the approach that you wanna do is developed technology that draws some of the carbon out of our atmosphere, if you want if you have too much carbon in the atmosphere, then we should be building things that remove it. That's what you would do if you actually believe that. This was I happen to believe that that's what you would do if you actually believed it was a problem on the scale of Nazi Germany. But I think it's also what maybe we should just be doing. I think that that's the conversation should be leaning in that direction, you engineering. How do we this is that big of a threat than how do we solve it without hoping just praying that China's stops burning coal like that? Because that's never happening. So yeah. And I think that I think Mars is. I think Mars is where that that story really could begin. So you're giving a few ways of looking at why this would be important to engineer. So one is. There are plenty of engineers who their personal moonshot is to raise a family be good to the people around them and be responsible. Just be a good citizen. And I think that is a kind of moonshot if you you can be personally responsible. If you're a good person that people rely on that is something to aspire to there are other kinds of engineers who aspire to build something that is unique that changes the world that is an invention that contributes to exploration, and that's perhaps another kind of aspirated, and these things are not actually mutually exclusive. You can be a very good person to the people around you while also building something in inventing or exploration. But really the show anatomy of next or at least. And I moved next new world. This season is more around the appealing to the second sensibility the sensibility of exploration. And where that takes you as. Individual whether you're an engineer or not. And I think there are all these sub problems that emerge from the idea of or going to do something incredible. Like going to Mars, and as you were saying, whether or not Mars itself is something that we should be aspiring to the fact that it is this really difficult problem with all of these complex sub-problems beneath it puts really difficult constraints on engineers trying to build solutions that get us tomorrow. And so it's almost like this really difficult game to play. That's you know, it makes you think of okay. Well, how did we even get the internet? Well, the internet was the result of having protection for our communications in the event of a nuclear bomb. So this, you know, this this constraint of how do we communicate after a nuclear bomb destroys PA. Part of our infrastructure led to the internet. So whether or not you think Mars is a practical idea the difficulty of it alone presents an opportunity to give birth to new technologies. I think that's exactly correct was the frontier, and it's like we do not know exactly what our lives would look like in the context of a multi planetary human civilization. What we know for sure is that on every single technological frontier in human history, we have developed things that dramatically improve the lives of humans across the planet. This is not just John to Mars for the hell of it. This is the natural March forward of the human being this is like the next place where we should be building. And. Yeah. Along that path. Yeah. You develop things that that you use and other contexts, of course. So there are a number of different apple. Locations that you explore in this season of anatomy of next to that engineers might be interested in so one is robotics. For example. What role does robotics play in Mars exploration? There are two different schools of thought here will there probably a million. But there are two that that I've seen a lot of the most of the Arkansas I've seen come from two different camps on the first hand, you have people who believe that robots are going to be this essential tool that we're gonna be using on Mars. They'll be robots semi autonomous robots, hopefully, helping us build their habitats tend to our crops, certainly analyze all the chemicals. There's a huge per chlorate problems of sort of toxic chemical covers Mars these be washed out, basically in gathered. Fortunately can be used for fuel. But like, it's a we need to get rid of it. If we wanna grow crops and things we need robots to help us with this. These look a huge huge problem robots can be helping us tariff on all this kind of stuff. And that's actually, the this is the conservative view. This is the kind of. Tempered, pragmatic, not even pragmatic. I would say just the conservative view on on robots. The more extreme version is that Mars is going to be populated entirely by robots for the foreseeable future. Like does it. Make more sense to just only send robots ahead of us. They do not just some of the jobs. They're not just our tools on Mars. They do everything and for the next fifty years robots or both exploring and tariff warming. There are some people who apply this to the universe. Like should robots just be exploring the universe humans or you know, hard to move around. Why should we bother certainly they're going to be a part of the and this is this is fun. I mean, there was a tweet. Someone tweeted this about a month ago. She said crazy to think that there's a planet in our solar system entirely inhabited by robots, and that's Mars. It's robot planet right now already is completely inhabited by robots to population of what I think like five or six, but the robots and that could balloon. Five or six thousand doing doing tasks for us. Yeah. And then in actual natural extension of that would be to sort of send them into the universe. When the people you talk to who are familiar with the subject on the show. They gave me the impression that robots robotics are advancing pretty quickly. I mean, it's hard. It's hard for the average consumer or even I think the average engineer to really have a perspective on how fast robots or advancing. I mean, we know robots are in Amazon warehouses, and maybe they're being used for some security purposes or some like drone things, but it's hard for us to know how fast robots are advancing. Do do you have a sense for? How far are we from from a place where we can have a bunch of humanoid robots or whatever kinds of shapes of robots we need to do actual work on Mars. So this is the big a colleague of mine. Zach Hargreaves wrote a piece about the way robots look in sight. Science fiction and whatnot. They tend to look humanoid. And we have these companies mocking two names that we spent a lot of time developing robots that looked like people and try and maybe performed tasks the way people perform tasks, currently, it's imagine like a construction worker robot that looks like a construction worker or maybe like a big scary version of a construction worker, but still like four limbs and ahead, right? That's very silly are robots aren't gonna look like people. They're not going to act like people they're going to be. It's like you have to develop things. Probably what's going to happen. It's people are going to develop things to solve very specific problems. And yeah, they're gonna look totally different. I mean, I talked to a guy who he's out of the future of humanity institute at Oxford, and he studies firms paradox aliens and one of the ways it gets at this is he talks about like mega structural engineering. So that means like the Dyson structure Dyson swarm magin dislike trillions of little self replicating robots surrounding the. Son and gathering all of the energy. Yeah. That's a very different kind of. I don't know what that robot. Looks like I mean, that's going to be a very it'll be very specific to the to the problem in terms of like, how far along are we I mean, we already have robots, for example, one of our companies Downer spun called emerald, you know, they have an entire robotic laboratory. It's things have moved along very quick, right? Self driving cars are right around the corner. There are a lot of advances here. They just I think we're advancing in dimensions were people just expected things to look more human than they are still be very advanced robot that just don't they don't look like people. Yeah. It's like it's a robot. So we don't want to build a bricklayer robot for Mars, maybe you would have like a three D printer thing that would be like gathering material off the surface of Mars, and then turning it into bricks, and then maybe you have another robot that looks like a drone that's laying the bricks, and it's like, there's no humanoid thing invite they have to just you have to have someone who just I think that we actually roughly have technology to do this kind of stuff. Now, there's not the will right now on earth. It's just so much easier to send a person in there to do that job. But you know, it's way harder on Mars. And who are we going to be sending it I probably scientists? They're not bricklayers. So if we want to build structures and things like this they're going to need help. And so as they need help we'll develop robots to help us create the bricks, then lay the bricks, and then as we develop those things on Mars people are gonna find us for them back on earth. So if we could just have robots go and build Mars tariff on Mars for us that would be great. But probably there's going to be at least some. Sometime where we're sending humans to Mars to maybe scope out the land. I hope I hope that's the key. I want that to be the case. I think there's something important about us. Humans going moving moving forward into the universe. And I think right now, it's more. There's a practical thing about that. So it probably will be that. Yeah. I mean, there's a among the people who care about Mars. I think most really wanna see people on Mars. So that insofar as Mars is going to happen. I think people will be on Mars, but whether or not Mars happens is, and so as far as what we need to get to Mars as humans, and we obviously need to build a rocket. We can talk about the rocket technologies, but can humans withstand the radiation. The other stresses that are involved in flying to Mars, assuming we have the rocketry. Yeah. So Mars is almost too perfect. It's like eerily per. Perfect for us to be traveling to it's definitely lethal to be on that planet right now without protection, but it's not like Venus. Right. It's not this planet where I don't. We don't actually have the technology withstand the surface of beans right now. We can't even send robots that aren't destroyed almost immediately. When they arrive, but Mars is a lot like earth. It's like a desert version, it's just a dead earth with lower gravity. So if you can go there get the radiation is high because there's no magnetosphere protecting you and there's no atmosphere, but we have protection from radiation that a bit. There is a slight risk for people on the planet. But Robert Zuber and talks about interviewed Robert knees guy wrote this book called the case for Mars, which radicalize me onto the subject when I was in high school, he talks about the risks the radiation risk, for example for a Martian traveler, and it's basically I think it's roughly equivalent or a little bit less of a risk than living near a petrochemical plant on planet earth. There is a risk a slight uptick in cancer risk. But that's just I mean, that's a risk that you take. If you care about it venture and living on the frontier and expanding the bounds of human knowledge, which people have taken throughout history. Not everyone has to take it. But some people want to take it. So those people I think should be allowed to take it on the journey over. Yes. Light radiation risk for sure. But nothing insane way less for example than smoking. And then once you're there, it's a matter of you're living in a habit. I the very first problem is how do we warm this planet? That's a tear forming question, how do we warm this planet which will release the frozen carbon dioxide in the southern polarized Cup and start to thicken up an atmosphere. You can also artificially thick enough the atmosphere with a handful of different chemicals that we talk about in the series. And as you do that the atmosphere protects you from radiation. It also increases the atmospheric pressure, obviously. So people can start walking around. They can't breathe yet. The atmosphere will be the air will be toxic or I guess not really toxic. The air will just not have what we need was dissolved oxygen can bring. Around a little oxygen tank with you wherever you go. And you know, you'd be in probably a sweatshirt and jeans. Hopefully, I mean, that's that's I think like one hundred years out hundred fifty years out of two years from now there's a wide range here. We just haven't done it. So I don't know. I mean, some people some people say with advances in technology into for chemical roaches. It could be a hundred years. Some people say two hundred years two hundred is the first number that I encountered like twenty years ago. When I I thought that this was a kid, and I was looking into all this stuff two hundred year tariff warming thing is sort of. I think that's like the conservative estimate, and is depending on what happens between now. And then we could do it a lot a lot faster. I mean, we're warming this planet pretty quick, and we're trying not to so imagine for really putting our mind to it association of these concepts like building an atmosphere, or I think you also talk about building an ocean on Mars, do these require any scientific breakthroughs done. No, none. None. No, no, no. The the scientists there. The technology. I think engineered a hydrologic cycle. Right. I mean earth it'll have to engineer a hydro LA. So the thing about building an ocean. I, you know, I use the phrase building in ocean. But I mean, that's sort of. That's a little bit of I guess, a click Beatty headline. I mean, what we're actually doing is warming the planet the planet. Engineers the hydrologic cycle. There already was hydrologic cycle on Mars. That's why there are we see evidence for water everywhere. The entire northern half of the planet was an ocean. We have I think proven that at this point. You see signs of of rivers, and you see signs of lakes, you, obviously like you said you see the sign of this massive ocean. There's frozen water everywhere. I think some of it was lost space when the atmosphere and did, but there's there's pros and water. Just like everywhere, you look once you warm up the planet that ice begins to melt once the ice begins to melt, you have water it starts creating more. Streams the hydrologic cycle begins. You have rain, and then the base of the planet changes. So. Yeah. Sort of Marsh lowly comes back to life in a way. Okay. Yeah. The main thing we're doing is warming the planet up in terms of terra forming. That's that's the big challenge. If you are looking to land, your dream job checkout veteran with veterinary companies hiring for tech roles reach out directly to you. And request interviews veteran is an online hiring. Marketplace that connects highly qualified job seekers with inspiring companies once you're accepted Vettori companies reach out directly to you. They're matching algorithm shows off your profile to hiring managers looking for someone with your skills with your experience and your preferences. Check out veteran dot com slash S E daily. For more information veteran is completely free for job seekers. There are fifteen thousand growing companies on Vettori from startups to large corporations, and they partner with veteran to give you a direct connection to those companies. They look at your profile, and they. They get you matched with fulltime contract and remote job listings in a variety of technical roles in all industries, sign up on veterans dot com slash s daily and get a five hundred dollar bonus. If you accept a job through Vettori get started on your new career path today by going to Vettori dot com slash S. E daily that's V E T T E R Y dot com slash SE daily. Thanks to veteran for being a sponsor of software engineering daily. We're covering different aspects of going to Mars and recreating it tear forming it let's touch on rocketry in the episode. I think it was called strange rockets. Yeah. You talk about not just taking conventional rockets like with jet fuel or whatever kinds of fuel go into a rocket today rocket fuel. I guess there's I guess positron engines other kinds of advanced physics. There are a lot of different types of thrust. I mean, the holy grail would be something like a warp drive, which there's no thrust. So you know, the way that rockets work is they propel you'll out of the back in that pushes the rocket up. But a warp drive doesn't need that. Right. This is a that's an abstract like crazy science fiction type thing that some people say as possible. And some people say it will never happen. That's certainly a science a science leap that. We've not yet made and would be awesome. If we do, and we change, obviously, everything, but in terms of things that already exists or that are very likely to exist. You have a handful of different things three that I covered one was nuclear rocketry. Pretty cool doesn't change the game quite in the same way as the next two which would be ion thrust and an antimatter thrust antimatter of the three is the most like volatile. We don't we haven't been able to create enough stable. I think antimatter to actually change the way that we move. There are companies actually working on this is not just like in the latter. Yeah. So in each, and I I should just say that this is true of everything that I'm talking about right now, I'm not an expert in any of it. I just interested in all of it. And I bring in guys and women who are who are experts in this stuff. So for example, in strange rockets, we've got we have Mark Massey of trans atomic doing nuclear. We have on Italian brickner a positron talking. About I on thrust. And then Ryan we'd who talks a lot about matter and his company is is working on this stuff. So yeah, I mean, there are people working on on all three of these things. I would say that Mark was working more on nuclear power and his had an enthusiasm for nuclear rockets and Italia's actually working on ion thrust, and it is marketable and you can use it right now. The antimatter, admittedly is, you know, it's there are still science things that need to be figured out. But if it does work out yet changes, the landscape of not just getting to Mars, actually, in fact, going to Mars is not the really exciting thing about anti matter. Antimatter becomes really useful over much greater distances. So it's something that would unlock something like interstellar travel. You can go to Alison, Tori, and a human lifetime. Which would be really cool. It's definitely a little bit of a wild card technology. We don't have it yet. But I I don't think it's I don't think it's insane you explore genetic engineering in this series. I. Think both for some advances that we could have that would help us. But also ones that could potentially hurt us the idea of a pandemic that could really impact the size of the human civilization or perhaps destroy the human civilization entirely. And this will be one of the more practical motivations for expanding to another planet is if somebody were to develop a version of the flu that wipes out humanity. Then we could have a backup yet to just pause really quick there and say that I mean that could happen without genetic engineering. Right, right. I mean, that's really nature is really the scariest bioterrorist of all right? So sorry continue. Yeah. Well, why is genetic engineering relevant to this season of anatomy of next? Yeah. So I think that there's almost no version of Mars that is an employing some kind of genetic engineering because the problems we're facing on Mars are so unique that much of the plant life on earth is just not at all. Sutatwo it, and neither are we to a certain extent. So what you're going to want to be doing is designing crops that are capable of surviving in a much harsher environment with less nitrogen, that's one of the big constraints on Mars, so far the best of our knowledge. There's a lot less nitrogen on that planet than there is on earth on earth. You know, it's all over everywhere. It's in the atmosphere. Most plants can't do anything with the nitrogen in the atmosphere. So they fix it. Mostly through symbiotic relationship between bacteria in the soil that draws nitrogen into the soil near the roots of the plants the plants absorb it through the roots on Mars. We don't have any nitrogen in the atmosphere. What you do have is nitrates in the soil. So you want to be designing crops that are able to fix it to either fix it themselves or designing activity to help him fix it. Or, you know, figuring out a way to just do more with end. I guess I should say figuring out a way to do a lot more with lot less. This might see. Seem like a deus ex mock, you know, like oh L use some magic science to fix the problem. But in fact, we're already working on us on earth because you know, there's there's a a tremendous market for plants that use less nitrogen, so they have to use less fertilizer, which is how we feed the planet right now is basically we're eating fertilizer. So yeah, there are all sorts of biotech firms working on plants and crops that just use a lot less of it. And that's just basic genetic engineering stuff that we've been working on for years that's getting better and better, especially with things like crisper. We have much better cutting tools now, I think the future of Marsh and farming is one of the coolest aspects of the whole endeavor because that's the one that does just have the most impact. Well, then I can see I'm sure there are things that I can't even think of that have tremendous impact. But but the ones in terms of the things that we really see coming. That's the one that that all the genetic engineering stuff that we do on Mars to either improve our plants or gene therapies to help us resist things like radiation or. Or deal with this chlorate problem that's going to have an impact on people back on earth is crisper being successfully applied to improve crops on Earth Day. Not that I know of you have three companies that are working with Christopher three publicly traded companies that are working with crisper on different, gene. Therapies, I think that we're still in sort of early stages of applying of using crisper and all these different dimensions. But Christmas one tool for cutting. They're all different tools for cutting jeans, and those kinds of things companies are experimenting with cutting. So it's matter of time to come back to Robert zoo Brin, this is an author who is a key character in the whole season. So he wrote the case for Mars. This was way back in nineteen Ninety-six more than twenty years ago and back in the nineties Mars was not taken very seriously as a destination for humans. I don't think. And I think. You all spoke to Zuber about this humanism versus anti humanism set of ideas. How would you describe Robert Zuber in as a philosopher will you should interview him because he's awesome? Okay. He is. You know, we're I think we're similar where we are certainly the same as I think we're both very pro human which sounds funded to say it loud. But I think there is all of his anti human philosophy out there certainly people like mouth this anyone who's talking about? How do we reduced the human population? How do we curb our energy use and things like this that comes from a maybe a well meaning place, but when you apply these things there's sort of logical conclusions. They always end historically have always ended in. It was like mass death you see Malthusian practices work in the Indian famines. For example, the Irish famine I think one more I mean, you could talk about Germany and living space needing living space, the belief that people had to. Spanned because they need more resources without those resources their society, but collapsed, and in fact, like this is just not true sort of throughout time. We've we've found is that with more people come more technological innovations that improve our ability to make either use of new resources that we never even knew how to use before or to do more with less or to recycle better. I mean, we're actually I've been so afraid of peak oil for so long. I always thought this was like this one on a voidable problem and talking to Dr Zuber in I heard and did not believe and then had to research the fact that I mean, we're actually further away from it than ever before. Like, there's no end in sight. We've just gotten much better at drilling deeper. I mean, obviously, yes, it's a finite resource. Oil's a finite resource. But we're also along the way developing new ways of of just like using it much more efficiently new fuel sources like I mean, we're gonna be fine. What we need is not less people. We need more people to help us think of solutions to these kinds of. Problems Robert at his core is someone who just believes in people. He believes that we're good. He believes that we're worth saving and he believes that the way to enrich and preserve our lives is to encourage technological innovation. That's his first thing. I think the second thing is I think he really loves America of it. He's he's definitely he believes in the sort of Nate not innate he believes in the I think the goodness of American style government and a culture of innovation and entrepreneurship that was incredibly powerful for the last couple of centuries in America. And he's a sort of defender of that broadly. I would say can you go a little bit deeper on the Malthus, Ian idea the anti humanism idea because this this the entire episode dedicated to this and show? Yeah. And it's a hard argument because it's a counter intuitive argument. So I really encourage people to just check it out. This is the only episode that I ever got a scathing cr-. Them for it was one comment on I tunes, and I get it. Like, it's I mean, I don't agree with the comment. I think this person is wrong mouth. This is wrong. Malthus has been wrong for what one hundred say, I don't think everybody knows. So so melts is of philosopher was philosopher and probably most famous for his ideas about population, which sound very reasonable. When you hear them out loud. The idea that eventually as human population grows, we're going to have less and less resources with less and less resources come famine, poverty, just a bleak future for the whole world and mouth was speaking at a time when our population was fraction of what it is today. So I think it was a billion or less than a billion. Certainly, I I think it was less than a billion humans in the world when mouth this was writing. And what was interesting about mouth is not only is he wrong. I mean, so since mouth is since mouth is made his predictions about the future of humans and resources. Poverty has plummeted hunger has plummeted and our population has exploded, you know, we're maybe ten times as big as we were when he was writing. And everything is better in everything keeps getting better across the world. People wanna talk about maybe wage stagnation, and the wealth gap and things like this. And that's you know, perfectly reasonable. We can have those conversations I think they're somewhat more political conversations because what mouth is was talking about was just straight up dis- topiary. Okay. He's talking about a world where there's mass starvation because there are too many people, and he was predicting that to be right around the corner and everyone believed him and that fueled a lot of nineteenth and then twentieth century politics. This real fear of population of not having enough of our population not having enough. And so we need to take from this other population. You know, our neighbors or whatever the Malthusian worldview pits people against people. And maybe it sounds a little pollyannaish to be like, but I think people are great, and we should all work together. Even though I think those things, but also just the the data supports this. The data supports that. With more people actually things have gotten better with more people come more ideas with more ideas on how to solve these problems come greater use of the resources. We have an expansion of the resources we have and an overall improvement in the quality of life. The really crazy thing about mouth. This is that not only has it has predictions been wrong. You know, he I think other than marks. There's no one. Who's ideas have been applied more vigorously despite all evidence that says, you know, the ideas don't work so for so long. I mean, we've seen just failure after failure. After failure of the Malthusian ideas never have any of his predictions come to pass, but he's not just been wrong for the past century or two. He's also he was counterfactual wrong. So if you were melt this just writing, you know at the time of his birth seventeen sixty six was born in seventeen sixty six he's probably writing most of his work in the early nineteenth century early eighteen hundreds if you just look backwards. He could have seen that things were. Far bleaker one hundred years before with smaller population wealth was down. So the global GDP was down global food. Production was down not just in general. Is there more of us were doing more, but like per capita? These things were down. We were already at the population was growing, we were producing more hunger was going down wealth was going up. People were were were living better lives. So he was making just incredibly insane predictions that just they they just sound they just sound reasonable. But they're wrong. They were wrong when he was writing the wrong today. They've been wrong for two hundred years and people still teach mouth is in college. As if he's the second coming, and you know, well, he was he's been wrong for two centuries. But maybe maybe now he'll be right. Maybe now when things are better than they've ever been before, suddenly, you know, the predictions come to pass it. I just don't think it's true. And it's hard to accept that. Just because it makes sense in some gut way. Like this. This is our animal instinct is to not want people in our territory or something you don't want more people. But we're not. Yeah, we're animals, but we're thinking we're thinking animals, and that means that our potential is much greater than, you know, a roaming mountain line or something where you have too many mountain lions. There are up dear the mountain lion. Population crashes, that's not what we are. We're race that's capable of creating food. That's never existed before. So that needs to be factored into the equation. Yeah. Well, this exemplifies one thing I really like about an enemy of next which is it is a philosophical respite from cynicism or from apathy. Your podcast is a place where ideas are explored with a sense of optimism, or at least open mindedness, or at least scientific curiosity. The which is something I try to do with my. With my podcast as well. Maybe on on a less, I guess on on a more microcosmic scale because we try to just look at particular software, tools, and how can you use the software tools to build stuff? Because then the idea of building things building new things is inherently optimistic or at least it makes me happier. When I think about when I wake up in the morning, I think about all the cool tools that are coming out and the things that I could build with those tools. It makes me optimisic. And I think that there's a need for positive philosophies. And I think there are a lot of people out there who who are looking to have a hunger for positive philosophies, if for antidotes to that kind of Malthusian, I guess negatively, you know, in that episode, you talk to some some of your your co workers about your founders fund co workers about the idea of do we need to sort of pull back as humanity in order to make human civilization. And more sustainable versus the idea of hurtling forward with the confidence that we're going to be able to innovate our way out of this human expansion. And I think that tension that tension ran through the first season of anatomy of next because you were talking about the philosophical ramifications of that on a cultural level, how does culture respond to a world where there are cynical pressures and pop culture pushes you toward cynical areas because advertising might be able to pluck your your heartstrings more effectively if you're in a pessimistic mode because you need to buy something to cure that pessimism than if you're in an optimistic mode, and you don't need to buy as much. Maybe you're in the mood to to build things and be creative. So the the philosophical side of the podcast is really appealing to me to totally change the subjects to what extent is. I mean, we're sitting in founders funds. This is a place. That's you know, business flows through. This building to what extent is the private space industry booming. Well, I mean, it's huge right now. It's a huge deal right now. I think the bread and butter of private spaces satellite. It's the satellite industry because he would call it. That's where all the money's coming from. And that's not gonna stop anytime soon. Where more connected in that way than we've ever been in the history of the world, and it's only increasing. But in terms of the stuff that gets me, you know, super excited this space exploration. We don't have a government that's involved in this anymore. Maybe they're writing checks. That's that's great. But they're not writing checks Nasr's not developing a plan. The only chance that we have at this point would be the private industry, which and I'm someone who I love private enterprise, but that does not make me. I mean, I I miss having a NASA that did stuff. Yeah. I'm and that's is a lot of stash say that. Nasa does stuff Nassar the ton tunnel stuff. But there. Or not doing is developing a plan to to go to Mars and to colonize that world. They are doing just like a million different research projects on robotics, and like space mining and a lot of think tank type stuff, and they're you know, blogging, and they're tweeting and they have a great Instagram account. Like, this is the kind of their essentially, a they're like a marketing arm of the US government, and they're really optimistic to follow. And they are really excited about space. But that's not what we need from the people in charge of getting us there. We don't need an fan, we need someone who is almost like a general. Who's like this is the objective to execute? We have to do this this this this, and this how do we get to Mars? How do we build a sustainable branch of human civilization on Mars? These are the goals. And I don't believe that. There's anyone at NASA working towards these these goals, they say they are. But you dig into the plan, and you see that. It's just I mean, it's all Bs. There's no money. There's no timetable. There's just no one's really actually working on the plan to go to Mars on the government side of things. China says they are. But China's did a lot of stuff because you know, it's a crazy government that lies all the time. Sometimes they don't I don't know. Like, I have no idea. No, one can really be sure what China's actually going to do. I think that the private industry in the west is. I mean, it's it's our I think it's our only shot. Yeah. Any any movement towards Mars is is pretty much is pretty much in the hands of companies. Like SpaceX and Elon Musk has been pretty influential in pushing us philosophically in that direction to to thinking about Mars, or at least popularizing the idea of Mars. I mean, listen, I love Elon Musk. I I think that what he's done for the world has been amazing. I think not even just the. Stuff the idea that we can solve enormous problems. Right. Like, that's what he's saying. And it's hard and he might fail. I mean, he's doing a lot. This guy's doing a lot right now and people love to attack him. But he is out there every day trying to solve enormous problems and to to really do something positive for the entire human race for all human history. You know, we have a few people like this in every generation who who are this prolific. But I am reluctant to say that he's gotten people excited about Mars because I think that people are always excited about Mars. I mean, my whole life people have been saying we're going to go to Mars, you know, in twenty years. We'll be we'll be on Mars the truth is we've had the technology to go to Mars since what the nineteen seventies. And we're not there people aren't doing it. The government's not put resources towards it. What's cool about is not that? He's getting people excited about Mars to me. It's that, you know, he actually controls the strings at SpaceX and he wants to go himself. I believe that. So those. Two things that's somewhat knew you have someone in charge of all the power and resources of a company and also the will. So anyone's going to do it. I think it's him. But yeah. In terms of enthusiasm. I think it's roughly been it's roughly been the same forever Verna. Von Braun was the guy pretty much created NASA way back in the day. We took him from Germany during World War Two is a rocket scientist and his original plan was not to go to the moon. I mean, that's eventually what NASA did with his early work. But his original plan was to go to Mars that was the vision that was the vision what like almost a century ago. People wanted to go to Mars. We don't think that we have this idea that like we're getting closer and closer. And I want to believe that's true. You described you as an optimist? I mean, I would love to believe that. That's true. It's just not true. We're not getting any closer things that Alana's done are definitely like going to help us by. I mean, I can't even begin to explain how important is to have reusable rockets. So if you can just make it so much cheaper to go. That improves our our. Odds of getting there. But yeah, I still don't see a plan. No one has a plan or you surprised by the positive the the number of engineers in Silicon Valley that are working on space travel or things that are related to space, or do you think it's do you think it's understandable. Maybe it's a little bit too early for the average engineer to be thinking about space. No, I think that SpaceX is on a great job of of finding people who want to work on those things and employing them, and I'm grateful for that. But the truth is, I mean, there aren't that many places working on this stuff? And there are plenty of things that engineers, I think can be working on to to help with things that that will get us there anything with anything that makes first of all combustion more efficient. So any kind of mechanical engineering or physics type work that that would make just the cost of moving through space less expensive would be both lucrative on earth. Obviously. And also really important to getting us. They're like, those are the kinds of problems that you could be working on. I think maybe that's the main problem really is energy. That's the main problem, that's sort of. That is the the problem of all problems. Everything comes down to energy. How do we get more of it? How do we use more of it? How do we make the acquisition of it? More efficient and the burning of it more efficient. Yeah. Everything we eat energy. We move on Energie our whole society exists because of energy, and we don't wanna use less. We wanna use more. We wanna use one hundred times more. So how do we do that? And also, you know, keep the environment healthy, and our resources not totally depleted. That's an engineering problem. That's the biggest problem of all. 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I recommend checking out triple by dot com slash S E daily because going through the hiring process is really painful and really time consuming. So triple bites saves you a lot of time I'm a big fan of what they're doing over there. And they're also doing a lot of research. You can check out the triple bite blog. You can check out some of the episodes we've done with triple bite founders. It's just a fascinating company. And I think they're doing something that's really useful to engineers so checkout triple bite, that's T R I P L E B Y T E dot com slash s daily triple bite bite as in eight bits. Thanks to triple bite and check it out. How is the progress in the energy sciences advancing is I I know there are companies that founders fun isn't invested in related nuclear energy, for example. But is that stuff at all on the cost of of of having an impact on the actual market for energy? Yeah, we'll nuclear has an impact in other countries like France, and increasingly Canada, we don't do enough with it here for it to make a huge impact on fortunately a policy issue. Yeah. It's not even it's weird. Because I mean, there's a lot of support for nuclear so like even among politicians there's support for nuclear energy people aren't as scared of it as they used to be despite things like Fukushima, which is great because nuclear is important nuclear is. If you care about global warming nuclear is the thing that you should really be working towards, but I think there's like this other cultural problem, that's all. Even to do with energy or nuclear power, which is people just don't have an appetite for enormous projects anymore. You know, you talk about high speed rail or building tunnels across the country or. Yeah. Like a new network of nuclear power plants, maybe a new kind of nuclear power plant. We'd have to deal with waste, and it's like how do you do that? And it's like this whole series of problems that seems big and the average person just does not believe that we're capable of doing big things. There's you talked to someone about the stuff, and they just they don't believe you. They don't believe that there's going to be a tunnel from Los Angeles to New York City. They don't believe it's ever going to happen. They don't believe it's popped. They don't believe the can't happen. And that I don't that's new. That's like a the last fifty years in America that has seeped into our way of thinking about the world. And it's it's like to borrow from Peter Thiel, a colleague of mine that would be a sort of. I think in Detroit. Minute pessimism creeping into the American consciousness, the idea that things are going to get worse. We don't exactly know how. But they're just gonna kinda keep getting worse like like things good things can't happen anymore. And we certainly can't build them. We used to be more of an indeterminate optimistic culture, which was also bad and that was like a few decades ago. Right. Where we just believe things are gonna get better. And better we had no idea how or why right, but we're not even optimistic anymore. So it's yeah. It's that's not an engineering problem. I don't know what that is that's cultural societal, I mean before the indeterminate optimism. What was what was the full determinate optimism that was the forties and fifties and Manhattan project and the program and Americans are that before in America, which I think America from its inception was pretty determinate optimist. And you believe that you're just going to build a new country. Let's say it was doing that. That's wild the Americans were doing it. And you know, every everything that Americans did had to be built from nothing. There was no legacy in for. Structure, they had to build every single piece of it. They didn't inherit anything so generation to generation you're expanding along the frontier in every on every new geographical frontier. New things have to be built there's new technology to build them. So things change as you move across the country. Yeah. Now our frontiers gone, and we're all just inheriting infrastructure that already exists. We don't know how it was built. So we're sort of living in the museum of a civilization that used to exist. And I think there's something kind of naturally demotivating about that. That's one of the reasons I think, you know, it's another reason I think Mars is so important reopening a frontier, an actual geographical frontier contributor, visit wouldn't be geographical. It's not on earth is so maybe spend other spatial here. Sorry was up. Well, we're wrapping up again on a philosophical note of why this is important to talk about because the inciting a cultural shift back towards. A determinant optimism is important. And I think, you know, speaking to the audience, I think engineers are as well equipped as anybody to contribute to on the front of actually building stuff as well. As on the van Jellicoe front or just, you know, if people are feeling personally indeterminately pessimistic than maybe they can list to anatomy of next for for some remedy. So let's close on talking about podcasting a little bit. You're exploring a lot of different formats in your podcast. So well, I guess to mainly so the main two formats are this transitory splicing together different interviews with different people interspersed with your own narrating, and then the other format which you've had in the recent episodes is just longer form interviews with some of these people standalone interviews, I think we talked about this a little bit on the on the last interview we did. But how were you feeling about the basic? Interview format versus the well-produced stitching together. And I guess more generally about podcast formats in general, what is the best podcast format? Well, I mean, this is like really subjective. Right. I mean, this is this is like the question of what is the best kind of television or something? It's whatever people wanna listen to would be the best podcast. I would say for them. But for me, I like the longer form storytelling type stuff. I think it's more gripping and engaging. I think you learn more you take more time with it. But also, there's a huge market for just talk radio. And I grew up listening to talk radio. That's why I love that too. And I think people love that too. I tried to a little bit of both because the longer form story. I think is I think is better. I think that the main narrative season new world, and you can see in the if you check it be check my podcast out on itunes. You'll see that it's pretty clearly marked. It's like there's there episodes called new world. And then there are side chats or the in conversation or side chat and those. Are just like sort of longer form just interviews with people. And I think one of the reasons I introduced that one. I like talk radio I like, I like this format where we're doing right now lie that's essentially what what it is that I added in also a way to do more faster. It takes so much time to produce the long form stuff with multiple interviews. Narration. It's all scripted soundtrack. This is harder to do. And I have a lot of cool stuff that I want to share that didn't fit into the main season. So it's like, well, this is interesting. We should at least share it. You know? And there are people who want to listen to it. So there is a best. The cool thing about podcasting is it's sort of a frontier right now. It's a media frontier. People are doing, and I think people been saying this for years, but it's no less true. Now, people are really experimenting with the medium still and doing really interesting things. I have a few new thoughts on that myself. Not quite ready to share them. They're not totally baked, but but definitely want to keep experimenting just telling stories in new and interesting ways. Now one thing I've realized over. Over the years of being a podcast power. Consumer is that my retention of specific facts from podcasts is not great. And it's made me continually. Revisit why am I listening to podcasts? And what am I getting out of it? And there are a few things that I know that I get out of it one is that you hear examples of how people are conversing in productive fashion or in an enjoyable fashion at least, and so in some sense, it can set an example for your own conversations. That's one thing that's useful. Another is was listening to your interview with the guy from Mythbusters. Jamie, Jamie, Hyneman, Jamie, Hyneman, it was a good interview. He he's he's so cool. He was really cool. And one thing he said was that in your early career one thing you're doing is? You're gathering ideas into this heap, and you're just like throwing ideas into this heap and then later on you are able to take. Advantage of that heap leave built up over time. And sometimes you don't even know where these ideas of come from. But the bigger the heap has gotten the more you're able to the more you're able to build new things the more you're able to draw on past random experiences where you don't really know where where this idea came from. And I think podcasts really helped to just like throwing stuff on the heap. And maybe you can't retain it from a fact based Wikipedia type retention, but there's something there you are getting something that you're able to draw on in the future. Yeah. I think that's certainly I like I've never thought about the modeling for conversational styles, and certainly with a podcast like same Harris or something I think that's maybe where that is really useful especially in this like Super Bowl, title crazy world that we live in our full can't talk to each other without yelling, the that's great. I love that. But for me when I listened to a podcast. It was now when I listened to something like that NPR does it so well produce also here. Their production. I'm like, oh, that's cool. I I need to do more of that. I need to I need to element or this or well that's their sound is like so low, and it's this kind of sound like for their soundtrack or whatever the music. I mean, I'm thinking mechanically like how can I make my podcast? But if it's just a cool subject or a contentious subject, especially if I don't agree with it. Or I agree but have other thoughts my brain is like firing off now. And I have, you know, ten new ideas. There's kind of is a dialogue between yourself in radio in a way. There's maybe less of it in like a blog post or something. It's like, it's a voice you hear a voice in your natural response as a humanist is to speak back. So even if you're not in a real dialogue. I think that your your brain is almost you're producing something in that way. I think I don't know. I don't there's enough. So like when somebody's saying something you've Sifford disagree with in the podcast. You're like, no. Yeah. Usually I like, I'll be shaking my head. I won't be thinking about I'm on a train or something. But you'll be shaking my head. Sometimes I'll make note. I'll I'll I'll have an idea for a blog post or something idea for my own. We have a couple of new shows coming we have one for next season. It's going to be a little more. Controversial. I might say. So I have a whole like Google sheets. And I am like just keeping track of different stuff. I wanna leave in in there. But yeah, I mean, I'm going to act. I'm definitely like an active podcast listener if that's a thing. Well, it's cool because people people Email me like when I explore something that is weird in a show. I will get emails from people, and they'll be like, I really like that idea or at least heard that idea. I totally disagree with you. But it's interesting idea or you're a total narcissist in your ideas, really stupid. But in any case, like, hey, you you listen into when when people reach out to me, I respond to I think everyone because I used to do that. But not for podcast like ten years ago. When I started my career, I was reaching out to bloggers who who said stuff that I liked or didn't or I was respectful if I disagreed. But like, I would always have I think that writers. And now podcasters I do think that people appreciate that that conversation, you're a professional conversationalist to a certain extent you like talking about especially the stuff that you're podcasting about. I mean, these are the things that we're interested in. Yeah. I love when I get people who on Twitter a lot of people DM me, and we'll have to say about whatever episode, and maybe they'll push back. Maybe they would just love it and want to talk more about it. I have a lot of people who want to help work with me on it. Which is cool. You know, I don't have. I don't really need much help right now. It's like I can do it myself. And I enjoy it. But like one day, you know, as I expand who knows. But I I love hearing from people when I reach out to people myself all the time who are here. Now again, read read stuff from it's cool. Yeah. Cold emails or DM's? I think that everyone should do that. When they're interested in something. I love your show. It's really thank you so much. I love your show. Thank you. What's next for anatomy of next next up is season? Three. Not going to talk too much about it. Not quite ready yet. A lot of research. I'm still working on with colleagues of mine at founder spun. But roughly I'll say, you know, I started the show season one was super abstract. It was like the way that we talk about the future, basically season two was still pretty abstract, but a little more concrete, and that it was like, well, how what about this very specific thing in the future, which is building a new world on Mars season three I want to be much more concrete, and it's going to be focused on things that already exist aren't working to very sort of. I would say in some cases catastrophic ways, and then how do we fix them? So how do we fix some of the things that are aren't working right now? And it's kind of a big you is what I'm saying right now 'cause I don't want to. Blow it but. Yeah, it'll probably be more for the show. And I can just say it's gonna be good. Thanks a lot. Thank you. Okay. Cool. Thanks, mike. Thank you. If I were to interview for a software engineering job right now, I would fail that interview the skills that you need to do. Well in a software engineering interview are not the same skills that you build in your job. This is a weird paradox within the world of software engineering, but it's a reality, and we have to cope with it software, engineering interviews challenge you in so many areas algorithms and data structures databases systems architecture the ability to talk to people there's a time limit there's white boarding. It's completely different been working as an engineer, which is why so many people study intensely for their interviews if you are starting to look for a new engineering job consider the app, academy engineering interview. Prep course, APPA kademi is deeply familiar with the software engineering interview process and their curriculum is curated from over thirty. Thirty thousand engineer interviews the ingineers interview. Prep course is an online class that will get you up to speed on everything you need to know to get a better engine nearing job than your current one. Go to software engineering daily dot com slash interview. Prep and get one hundred dollars off the online course software interviews can be stressful and hard to prepare for APPA kademi is engineering interview. Prep course will help you build your skills and build the confidence that you need to do. The sorting algorithms the binary tree questions all the material that you've forgotten since your last interview, go to software engineering daily dot com slash interview. Prep to get one hundred dollars off the online course and put yourself in a position to get a job that you are more satisfied with a higher salary. I am so glad that I don't have to do software engineering interviews right now because I'm a podcast her. But if I were going to go back into the field. And I had to do all those crazy whiteboard. 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Software Engineering Daily
Aired 11 months ago 67:15
Kaveh Akbar vs. Bewilderment
She's workers Tina Aguilera's Hopelink, Freddie, Choy, and they're the over Zuber national anthem singer at the minor league. Baseball games, this also Christine Aguilera. And why and walk versus the podcast for poets confront the ideas that moved them brought to you by the foundation and post loudness. We love you really do about it. So. Are you ready? Okay. How are you? Good 'cause you know, starting with offer slanders because we're about to go into episode with like one of the kindest people. We just have to prove that we're terrible people in comparison to come out just to make him look great. We're shit kava on Mars. Know about Kobe in these streets than you know, that like he is like the biggest poetry cheerleader in the world. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I think all poets are poaching cheerleader at least. I hope they are. I mean, if you and if you're not familiar, and you want to just like get a daily sample of some great poems. That have really smart person is reading the coffee on Twitter because he's constantly posting the poems and ideas that he's encountering in his daily read constantly his at to just be at poetry. For any. What are you the Kaveh Akbar of on Twitter? Oh, what do I post as much as post? God, I wish that the answer was poems. But it certainly is not. Yeah. Gosh, it's probably like re tweeting democracy now headlines. Okay. Okay. Okay. Which each have like seventeen likes whatever from the democracy now, and like obscure, slightly sensical Korean American culture. References. Okay. Cool with that word issue view in a more. Ha ha ha. But Leila's episode of K pop star. Am I right y'all are moms? What about you? What are you the covet Akbar of on Twitter? Okay. So in my heart of hearts, I would like to say the black beer of, you know, not not not black were the show. But just like, you know, oh, I know I'm the kind of Akbar of either a customer trae people because they need so many reminders about live. They're wrong. I am. I right. Am I right? And my right. No. But in truth, it's really Typos because. I tweet Moore type of anybody in the world in the sad part is I usually do a follow up tweet about the typo that includes a type. Typo corrections have Typos so. Yeah, that's okay. Shadow to copy editors because my books would all be trash. Don't call is dead. Don't call us deed. Call us, Dan, insert bay. I love insert bay that should be the B side. Okay. Maybe. So now that we know who Cobb as we are let's get to the actual cover. Akbar is the author of calling the wolf a wolf he runs a amazing interview website called dived apper, which you all should be into Royal, professor, brilliant, mind, kind heart and has the best hair hair. Yeah. The best hair, inherits hair and hair. Let's get into it. Let's hang out with our friend Akbar. Jeez. This is such a nerdy. It's just like. Oh, I picked the dumb else coffee dot drink. I learned like two seconds of of coding, Douglas. And I was like, you know, what this is actually boring turns out, my I like art thing was programming calculator games in high school like this is before everyone had like this is like very Middle Eastern child of me. But like this was before everyone had cell phones on which you could play games. Right. And so everyone. Really I used to program eighty three games. If you go to archive, Oregon, they published like a bunch of my games like fungi. That was like the thing that I was claim to fame. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was like my creative thing was I was programming these calculator games. I did like fungi, man. That was like. I did serpent. Did this game called sim band where you could like make up your own band, set, merch, prices and stuff? Oh. Oh, my. Weird capital? The games. The game like a game. Why why price? This fun. And so like in my math classes, everyone would just be like ignoring the teacher and playing my game. Did you get in trouble with? Well. I mean, I just made the people who were playing them the teacher noticed would get in trouble. You know, the same way you get in trouble. If you were texting and class now, you were the mastermind I was more than snake. I think that was the only one we really, yeah. I made a very called serpent. Good active listening. But serpent was where the serpent poops everywhere the serpent goes. And then you have to avoid all the poop and the snake gets longer and longer the longer he survives. Wait. That sounds so good fun. It was fun. You can you can literally still go to dot org. Download these games. Well, I still have my calculator. So you get this. This definitely don't have my calculator. I I refused to ever get rid of that thing. All right. We paid a hundred dollars. And they've got like the market corner. Like, there's no other calculator Nonni that you can know. And I still have a fear that if something ever happened to it. My mom would appear out of nowhere. Your mom just shows like I need to use your calculator. I told you in two thousand four thing was good. Totally totally. Expires. Throwback throwback. All right. So let's we should use that by the way. Okay. This is why like us. We are sitting here in the studio with the one in the only in the lease oil EES. Yeah. A very balanced moisturizing. I actually air dry. No, no, no, no, no. I on the side of. The side on the site. Was on me. Well, you know, this is what polls are about y'all. Go slips air dry. Or you could be like Plath air like H E R like the German air. I don't ever want to be the air to dry, you know, like who just wants to like inherit astronauts. There's so many heirs never thought about all the oh you're talking about another air that ours. Like, Mr. in German air. Yeah. Mr. It doesn't mean missed a little bit too. Hitler. And sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. I feel like I just got us like to white supremacists. Somebody's I'm listening. On follow and follow. This is not for you. No, no, quick quick. We're Brown Brown Brown. I have a hard. Pile up our melanin in the middle of. So we had the chance to see kava and other season two guests Zula do amusing. Amusing amusing reading last night, and we also have a live dived effort interview. Yeah. That was cool. Yeah. How was the have you done sort of a live interview format with done? Exactly one before. Okay. With transcendent Chicago, poet, Erica Sanchez. We were reading together in Utah. And they wanted us to do a Q and A afterwards. And I was like we just like could I hit record on my phone? But yeah, it's fun. The actual dived. Apper conversations are just phone calls with me talking to the person as you both know. And then those conversations are transcribed and put up on the site. If I'm doing a Q and A with a poet who I love and whose book I'm excited about that. It just kind of makes sense to record on my phone and use it assuming they're amenable sneakily recruiting people. Surprise, you're on my website. Curious. Do you have a favorite interview that you've done for dive deeper? Decker assuming you love all your children. Yeah. I mean, I think about this. Sometimes people have asked it to me before it varies FRANZ, right? Was really important to me because he was sort of a lodestar kind of poet to me. And he was someone who I couldn't get a hold of for the longest time. I found his Email address. And I just started sending him emails like constantly like I would send him like an Email every week for like six months, I'm not exaggerating a while after like thirty mile stop being like, can I interview you for dive dapper, and it just started being like, hey, I'm kinda this is what I'm up to this week. And this is what I'm thinking about. And it just kind of became like this kind of became this little private blog for me or so I was just sort of like not responding. Yeah. He's not responding. I didn't even know if it was like a really Mellencamp. But it just sort of became like this place for me to put my thoughts after six months, I'm not exaggerating like six months of like constantly meals. He sent back like eight words, and it was like call me at this number. And so, of course, I call it right away. Naturally. Like, no voicemail. No answering machine just rings like thirty times and nothing happens. And so I'm like is this number even a real thing. You know, what I mean sound like a wizard or like he kind of was that? Kind of was that both to me, and I are L. But so I just like called him for like two weeks like that, you know, every couple days, I would call this number again, always just like ring and no answering machine tougher than trying to become Jewish. Yo. You got to Email? The rabbi for six months, call them for two weeks to be able to send a pigeon. Yeah. Finally picks up. Well, his wife finally picks up two weeks. And then we schedule a time. And it was great. We like talked and it was normal. And it was like. Yeah. And then it happened to be like the last interview he did before he passed away too. So it was like this intense conversation that was really sort of beautiful important for me. You know, that one was amazing, obviously, both of yours. We're incredible. I felt. I quit inadequate. Yeah. Was she had circled back on like two years? I was very young in my career, and I really loved I've Deborah it was just like I a consumer early, but he asked. The honest like if you read the early interviews on the site a lot of them are really bad. And it's not because of who I'm talking to us because of me like because I I started the site when I was like a baby having you know, I hadn't published a single palm. I hadn't I wasn't like out. And so I didn't know what I was doing. And I was deeply insecure about the fact that everyone would be like why is this do talking to Sharon olds? Who does he think? You know, who does he think he is? Once. Yeah. That one that one turned out to be one of them here is, but like I remember getting ready to interview Carl Phillips, and I was just like what am I do like, I'm this like child, and this is like I was just sort of a magin him like sitting on an iceberg with like a falcon on his shoulder reading Proust's, or you know, what I mean? Antlers. From what I still? Yeah. Oh, but now he's on Instagram lip sync. Yeah. Just like seeing karaoke. Hanging out with. The nicest. Like this to say, I was so self conscious. And I was so worried that you know, everyone was just going to be like who is this, dude? And like why is he sounding like such a dumb ass until I would prepare these sort of like unanswerable monologue question. You know, what I mean like like, referencing obscure like nineteenth century politic theory. You know, what I mean, just like these awful awful questions to super obnoxious and all these people were super super like gracious and still we're able to answer and say smart things, but it wasn't until I was doing an interview with the poet Judah. He liked called me out in the middle of the interview. I asked him like some like over the plate question like how did winning the Yale younger change your life? You know, what I mean, which is like such a such a non question, and he was like I mean, I could answer the question. But do you really want me to just give you the same answer? I've given to like the thirty other interviewers who have asked me that. It was like I was like why am I talking to you like the sort of like character? Why aren't we talking like human beings? You know what I mean? And so like you. Talk about like being self conscious or whatever about that interview. But like the whole like first third of the site is I feel that way about until I stopped like coming into being like these are the six questions, I'm going to ask you know, what I mean did did did you also starting to publish your own work in the world's changed that mindset to. Yeah. I mean, I certainly like helped me to feel like I belonged in the community. But a big part of me publishing my own work in the world was just that. My work got so much better as a result of typer because like for each one of these interviews I have to like read like just about the entirety of everyone's bibliography before I talked to them. And if you are reading that much poetry, and like, you know, it was coming out every two weeks. You know, what I mean still aspires to slow down a little bit. But if you're reading like this much contemporary all the time, of course, it's gonna like change your own Poetics. You know what I mean? And you're reading all the time. Like, I was surprised, you know, have a book in your hand right now. A couple in my backpack. And I just I just like it. Yeah. Well, I mean, like, I don't know. It's like a comfortable thing for me. If I love call of duty, I wouldn't shut up about call of duty and making like call of duty YouTube videos, all the time, and I'd just be like that dude. But like because I love poetry, and that is like what really really sort of sincerely I was going to say gets me up. But that is like, you know, what really sort of does it for me. This is just the body that takes you know, what I mean? Sometimes people talk about it like it's like, I'm doing this like service or whatever. But like, I think that that sort of framing it makes it seem like poetry is like this chore that you have to do. And you know, what I mean like, and that's not my relationship to it. And that's not your guys relationship to it. You know, and it only feels like service if you don't like, do, you know what I mean? Well, I think it feels like service because you are such avid like not only, I know you're avid reader because you're an avid share of work in that does for like actress service because I know for me like sometimes like, I read a dope home. But sometimes I feel like I have more of a selfish relationship to particular thing. I want. Keep something more insular. But I think you have this celebrate Horry energy. Where's just like this is good? And I want to show it to the whole world. And sometimes I feel like that too. But it feels like it does for active service to be that generous with something that can be so private for sure. I mean, it's it's this thing. Now, where if I read a poem that I love it takes all fifteen seconds to instantaneously put it in front of like thousands of you know, what I mean like that fifteen seconds is nothing to me. It's time to link sort of recalibrate my mind. But then you know, that can make all sorts of stuff happen for you know, that poet or connect someone to a book that they really need. You know what I mean? It's really cool to think about that. This is something I'd be interested to talk to you guys about like people talk a lot now about like social media poets. And as if it's like this, huge pejorative, and I think that a lot of it is founded in this idea that, you know, the traditional channels to success are, you know, you go to a prestigious undergrad, and then you go to a prestigious MFA program, and then you get like a shitty professor job. And then you win fellow. You know what I mean? And they're like all these tracks that you're supposed to go through to get an audience. You know what I mean? And you know, like, maybe not it's not all these tracks. They all these doors on this. Yeah. All these all these. Doors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good. That's a good way to frame it. And you know, are all these gatekeepers that you're supposed to impress. And I feel like people like you to have done a lot of really really important work to show that there are alternative paths to gaining an audience while still making like really really don't really really sort of like, formerly interesting creative poetry. You know what I mean? And I think that there is a way in which those who are more aligned with the traditional modes of poetry, and those traditional avenues really kind of resent that you know, what I mean for sure I mean, I by also think it's it's so weird that it seems sometimes it's like the same people who believe so much in gatekeepers that believe that poets have a responsibility to do like a through z with whatever shine that they've gotten. It's just weird because like that track that we just like outlined is not one that really depends on any kind of community. You know? Just like like you like do. Well, and then you like do well to the next thing you can do. Well, again, you know, you don't own anyone anything. Just been thinking a lot about like the way people talk about like what poets. Oh, whoever else. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for me hate the idea of trying to speak empirically about like, everybody else's responsibility. You know what? I mean. I that's actually what I detest. Anyone anyone who tries to tell me like how I'm supposed to be acting or how I'm supposed to be like managing any part of my life. You know, what I mean like, this is something that I struggle all the time to try to manage my whole life is built around this constant sort of inventory. Taking of like, what am I doing one? Could I be doing better to be a more compassionate empathetic useful person to the people around me? You know what I mean? What I mean? And so for someone else who doesn't know anything about my life to come in and be like, oh, you should be. You know, it's it's really sort of an insult to a lot that to say my being here. My being able to be talking to you guys here in this beautiful studio full of fruit snacks and string cheese. Is predicated on a constant orientation towards gratitude, you don't owning my whole being here and not living the old life that I've sort of written about is predicated on constant sort of inventory taking and you know, being abundantly aware of like what I have to be grateful for and you know, what I mean? Because as soon as I lose sight of that it's easy to start backsliding. And so when you pile up gratitude when it when it piles up all around you what you have to do is push it out. What you have to do is share it. You know what I mean? And so it becomes sort of incumbent upon me into and care of myself, like it's still a deeply sort of selfish personal thing to be pushing this sort of gratitude hours, but that's a say, you know, someone who has intense social anxiety or someone who may not have the same sort of faculties in the same sort of capacity that I have. So for me to be off. You have success. You have to be out there talking to you know, what I mean? That's that's bullshit. You know what I mean? Because not everyone has the ability to do that never one is. Able to sort of contribute. However, they can and everyone sort of has to figure it out for themselves. Right. And not all the different kinds of like service is visible in this. Yeah. Because that's my real problem with it. I think a lot of like when we're talking about this thing with social media. It's it's interesting because I think especially for I don't want to say, especially for poets. But I think there's so many little sub tweets and arguments on Twitter on time about what should shouldn't should be doing. When really to be the most popular poet is to say that nobody knows who. I am. Richard Howard has this quote where he says being a famous poet is like being a famous mushroom, exactly. Maybe I mean, that's kinda nice as mushrooms are all that kind of connected under the earthrights. You're only connected to this thing that nobody can see. I think they're like a few people out there who like go out into the woods. And they're like, I'm gonna hope we find a really morale today or whatever. But most people just like, you know, they just see the mushrooms in the mud and walk by maybe this is happening in our greater culture too. But it feels like people have forgotten that our social media's are not our real selves that they are literally an avatar for who we are. But I think that started to replace, and that's become more important than the physical miss of who we actually are what we do in our daily lives since I I worry about that sort of rising concern about like, you know, I actually don't care about how anybody else uses Twitter. Yeah. I don't and that is not up to me to decide if you wanna pump out. I think I I love people when they like because I get to see new poem sue when people share a lot of stuff, but like, you just wanna share your friends poems going, Jerry while you just wanna share your poems. Cool like, that's like your professional. If you want to just want to re tweet dogs and porn stars. I'm. Those two things on Twitter sharp, actually, can we then it makes me just want to say. Okay, cool. We could we stopped talking about Twitter and actually just go back to talking about. Truly. It's like anyone trying to dictate and you know, if you're not harming someone else directly by your actions. And like who the fuck cares? What any of us are doing it with anything? You know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah. Hey, man. So you've recently released, you're brilliant collection called wolf how has it been touring around in doing those homes. You know, has it been taking these because it's a very personal book. And I know I've wondered about this too and the struggle within when inter boy came out, and I was like, oh like, I'm just like on a national read my diary tour. Yeah. I mean well for one, you know, it's been living a dream. You know, what I mean to get to just be a person who goes around talking about poems all day every day doing like the one thing that I want to do all the time. I'm a full time. Professor Emma fulltime PHD student, and I did thirty two gigs last semester. I'm doing like, they're you know what I mean. So you are Grainger. Right. Yeah. You know? And so like, it's like this thing where you know, I've had to become like very sort of disciplined about my time. You know, what I mean, which also means being disciplined about like taking an hour to like play chess on my phone with paid partner or taking a break to like watch an episode of the Simpsons in the middle of the day to sort of reset myself or take a nap these sorts of things, but heartbreaks are so important. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, because like, you know, if I take an hour to talk to my partner to work during that time, I'll find that like afterwards, I will get way more work done than if I had just worked through that. Our you know, what I mean, also say, you know, with regards to the actual question, you were asking, you know, going around and reading difficult poems about the low time in my life. You know, like you were talking about within I found myself writing more gratitude homes, you know, and I've had to sort of balance that out in my readings if I just get up in front of an audience and read eight poems about being a rock bottom at. Pissing myself every night, I'm gonna feel like shit afterwards. And they're gonna feel like shit too. You know, what I mean, it's not going to be an experience that anyone leaves feeling positively about even if they are arriving with the poems, even if they're like really really sort of like feeling it. It's not going to be an uplifting experience. It's not going to be something that they're going to want to think of you know, what I mean. But and it's not an accurate reflection of who. I am today. You know, what I mean because I'm not feeling desperate and lonely and scared of the world, you know, what? I mean, a lot of the time feeling really grateful to be here with friends like you guys feeling really really lucky to get to be in love with my favorite person. You know what? I mean, I wanna have poems that sort of reflect this sort of thing too. But that I feel like it's such an act of care for the people that you're reading poems to the people who are trying to reach an for yourself. And like the person that those poems are about to. There's like an ethics of care there. Yeah. I love that. I love that. I mean, how do you guys deal with it? You know because you guys have both written about difficult things. But you guys also are complex humans who find deep wells joy in this. I think you're right. You know, it's about knowing how to balance it out with like poems from the books that may be hard things newer poems. And also like jokes really interested in like, the non poem connection that you make with an audience as well. And just really building up that space which allows I think myself to go to the hardest basis if I know that I can joke around and be funny intimate moments outside of that. But I also I think I've got a lot more greedy with my own energy in terms of like what poems I show super form on to Maury. And so like, really depending on rooms and really be able to go in and feel energy. It's like sometimes I go in rooms like if I'm in small town, whatever the hell, we're like, obviously, the I like black person a lot of these folks have seen in the front of a room in a long time. Then maybe I do less like the sad as like know has to think about his blood today poems, and I do more of the life. You'll wipe person you need to think. About this shape. Also think about how like black people are worthy of tenderness, and those are the poems I decided to give to those audiences, and I really try to pick and choose which spaces I can truly open up myself with and I think that's always been sort of thing with my Poetics like balancing the personal with like sort of the things that can feel a little bit further from the self. So yeah. So it's just about that balance and recognizing that like I can offer up myself to an audience without exhausting myself beautiful way to say for sure and like kind of getting away from the idea that like you have to sacrifice yourself in front of people in order for them to like feel moved by something. Like, I I don't know. I want to read the poems that are moving to me and the moment in ways that don't require me being broken. I made a pact at some point last last year a few years ago that like there were certain palms where every time I read them in front of an audience, I felt just like shittier and shittier each time reading those poems. I was sort of like that I'm not going to do that anymore. Like, I'm not going to read a poem that makes me feel that like puts my own like destruction on display, and then doesn't offer anything and its place. You know, also, especially if you're on tour, and you're doing, you know, ten shows in a row or something that's rough on all of this. Yeah. Also said doing to prototype. If you're on tour or from binding touring one day. I started bringing my own personal alter whoever I went about like a really nice piece of fabric, wrapped up things from home that I care about. And that really li- I think that also like in this last tour that I did help me go deeper into those places because when I did get back to the hotel room. I was someplace that was mine, even if it was only temporary. Like, I touched the turtle that my friend Kelsey gave me I touched the lay that my friend will give me what he was in for me came from fly analysis like shriveled of flowers that are crushed up. I'm able to do those things. Yes. So being able to come back into a space that still felt precious even if it was a Holiday Inn. So it made it made it really possible for me to say, okay. I can actually do that harder poem tonight because I get to go back to someplace that feels like me that's beautiful. There's this really great test Gallagher line that I'm going to butcher, but it's something to the effect of like the hotel rooms have the most people they have the most humanity passing through. And no record at all. You know what I mean? It's the weirdest thing to be on tour and to finish a gig where you just talk to like one hundred people after the show who came through, you know, say some. And then you go back to an empty hotel room in a city where you don't have a car, and you don't know where you are. And you just like, oh, well, it's just me and these sheets. TV? Yeah. Yeah. Go to watch this dog Walker and this librarian by ten thousand million dollar house. Painting of Warren's triangles. Isn't it? Also, something kind of comforting that like every hotel room in the world kind of looks the same like you walk in. You're like very basic again ordering a Big Mac anywhere around the world. Exactly what you get now know about all that. Another Big Mac. I I'm not a big person either. But I heard KFC is popping in the Caribbean. And yeah. Discussing here. It would be a beautiful thing that just do. Well, no, it would be we deeply strange tour. Just like all around the world, like international. Blog about like in the Polynesian islands. They have spam. You know what I mean? And like the sort of thing KFC if you're listening sponsor like Amtrak. Doing the residencies that you can I circle back to send me like, we mentioned hope, it's okay? To talk about I want to talk about poetry and love for a second. So your partner page. They are a phenomenal poet if you're not up on pays Lewis you need to get there. Get up on their homes in the January issue. Poaching magazine. What is poetry taught you about loving and being better partner in like in maybe each other too? You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we started out as kind of puppies together. You know, what I mean like we were both little idiots than I'm FA programs. You know what I mean? And we were just writing postal letters back and forth. And then we started writing poems within each postal letter. People talk about doing like, a poem, everyday thirty poems and thirty days or whatever. But this was like the stakes were so high for this because it was like if I wrote a shitty poem hates my love me less. You know what I mean? Like, if they wrote a bad poem, you know, then maybe I'd be like, oh, no not. True. You know, you've seen somebody read a bad home, and they got a little bit less cute. But never never never transcended. That was really sort of when I became disciplined as a poet, you know, because I had to write like, a good poem. You you know, and not think actually one of those poems did make it into the book. But that taught me a kind of discipline. You know what I mean? I also think that you know, I would be a hopelessly uninteresting person to anyone who wasn't a poet to spend all your time around. Well, no, I just mean like, I just I just such a potion. Huge geek and like and like pace unless it's like, this nigga, take a pictures and books again. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Like, they will sit by my side. And right with me for eight hours. You know what? I mean. Like who could I ask that of if not another right here? Yeah. We're like one of our favorite things to do is to just like walk around this pond that is in Tallahassee where we live together and memorize poems while we walk around upon you know, what I mean? And like, I'm sure that you could find someone rolling. I'm sorry. This is like the cutest lamb team in the world. And like there's there's so much better at it than I am to like, they're like, they'll have the poem memorized within like the same poem together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, we're helping each other memorize it. You know, it's not their own. It's not their own poems. Like, they're memorizing. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. We're not selling getting ready for the reading. No me and for any come from slam. So remember, I just I gotta get ready for that bout. I have most of the poems in my book memorize now, just because like I spent so long. I am sure that you guys are the same. I mean, like I still like to have the book in front of me because it's sort of like if you're in the north. Oh, well, I thought about. Yes. It's like remember by this. I never even thought about that. That's just going to say something way, more pretentious. About how like if you're like in an orchestra. You still wanna see like the conductor up there? With the actually really nice. Yeah. But I found. That's like some real. I don't know. I mean, like how does how does poetry work in your love life? Well, that's a whole. Yeah. I mean as like someone who's Venus's Aquarius. I do like to be loved for having mental philosophical kind of connections. Like the way that I prefer to sort of fall people. Yeah. I don't know. I think it's it's a lot of I like geeking out. And I like love is like a process of geeking out told, you know, he got about each geek out about thing and practice doing that together. It's nice to like already like because I think you geek out about things your partners like sometimes somebody will make you a fan of battle star galactica because they love it. Shout out to my ex. That's great though. I didn't know I didn't know to somebody was fucking me. Right. Sexy Star Trek. Yeah. It is sexy. It's super bad ass. Yeah. It is not to five dollars. I'll go down that road. You'll let me don't. They don't watch it anymore. I'm finished receiving the dick. But it's like nice walk into walk into love already having love the same thing. Yeah. That's really I want that. Yeah. I think so much of is like building up like shared library and like language, you know, to us with your partner. Yeah. Yeah. Part of that language, and I think that so much of tracks me to somebody is passion. Right. And it doesn't matter if they're passionate about stamp collecting or Otieno graffiti or. I was so I was staying with Nate in Jose, right and Jose L E about. Yeah. Yeah. And Nate was driving me around the other night just showing me like all of his favorite places in his neighborhood. And like he was like this is where I wrote this. And this is where my grandma you know, what I mean? And it's like I was like this is someone who really really loves what he's like glowing. He was a glow. I never loved him more. You know, what it was like, it was a really really beautiful thing. Nate does love Chicago. But it's just I true. Yeah. To see somebody else put to let you know that they're capable love. Yeah. Even like if they're just like playing with their dog, and they're being sort of Gulnara, Bill and non-self conscious a way that they aren't often in there. You know, that's wonderful. Love poems. Yeah. Yeah. Agree. That are just like straight up love poems. So I don't publish like nearly everything that I write I write a lot, and I have written a lot of deer page Louis. I think you're great sort of love poems almost all of them haven't been published, but they're really fun to write would you ever publish those? I mean, I have published a couple of them. It's just a I mean, it's not even about like like I want this stuff to be secret. Although that some of it and sometimes, but a lot of it is like a lien on the kinds of private language that we have you know, what I mean stuff that wouldn't necessarily translate. Yeah. Over the course of a relationship you build private iconography. You know, you you have like sort of totems of your love, you know, that wouldn't necessarily have the same sort of connotates effect on the relative vacuum of a reader's mind. You know what I mean? You know, what I mean like siblings talk to each? Language also received warnings about that from histories of like, I don't know if you look into like, some of your favorite poets history relationships, right, there tend to be some warnings there about like writing too much about partners and things like that. Sometimes much easier to write about the family members that hurt you write about the people in your life that actually love I knew. Sometimes a lot less percussive because if you already have beef that it's like cool. That's continued have Stanton. Ties into just that. It's oftentimes easier to write about pain than it is to read about joy. Yeah. And that's something to constantly navigate like you want your poetry to relate the entire corpus of your emotional experience. Right. But it's easier to write of sort of formerly technically interesting poem about. Sadness agreed for loneliness or desperation book about friendship right now. The shit is corny. We. I don't believe that first of all. I mean, I think like so much of the energy of palm comes from like something being off right being not right? Yes. Matched and everything fits in his okay? Also, it's also hard to have a double play. Sometimes like, usually like, you know, we play in our problems because of the hard topics that are there. A lot of the times it's hard to like play play silly about happy stuff. Well, it's also like you come into a poem certain that you love someone. And I think we were talking about this. Last night was certainty is really kind of death to appoint. I come into a poem certain that I am in love with page Louis. Yeah. You know, there's nowhere for that poem. Go really those. It's like a complete circuit already. Whereas if I come to a poem being like this person fucked me up in this sort of amorphous abstract way. And I'm not really sure what it is. That is like broken in me. But like, maybe those Mesa this poem will sort of you know, what I mean, it's a lot easier to catch that sort of charge across the synapse ever since Plato. It's been better to find the light than the just the in it. Eleven. I learned the word existential, and then use it in all my papers. Literally every essential. My teacher. Finally at the circle b like, it's not actually essentially just like that work. Gear also think about love. So you have worked with one of my like, icons, Magill and hall. Fucking on this movie called the kindergarten teacher, which is about a five year old poetry prodigy. Maximum hall plays teacher ocean Vong wrote poems with this. How is it one to write poems for a movie, and then also to put those poems in the mouth of a five year old? What does a five you sound like five euro, Paul? Yeah. Yeah. The whole so like the conceit is that the movie is sort of loosely about this five year old who has an interest in poetry, and sort of rights, these incredible poems and his teacher tries to sort of foster that and so open, and I wrote the poems for the five year old. And then this other Dominy town, send wrote the poems for the teacher because the teacher is also. Yeah, it was Wild Thing where page we're literally reading in bed. And I got this Email on my phone from Joan hall, and like it was. And it was this thing where like I looked at it. And I was like this certainly isn't real. But then it's like the more. I looked at it the more. It seemed kind of. She was like Magill and hall. I'm a actress and director. Maggie. I showed page and they were like, wait a minute. You know what I mean? It was just like this weird sort of surreal moment. So I talked to her talk to the director Sarah Colangelo on the phone for a while to sort of get a sense of what they were looking for for the project, and it was it actually turned out to be this really really fascinating thing where for the five year old. They wanted poems that a five year old could conceivably right, which is to say they wanted like the sort of vernacular and grammatical patterns native to sort of five year old mine. Right. And so it became this really really interesting project. It was almost like translating, right? Where I had the sort of strictures given to me like they had to be fairly short poems. Using only vernacular native to a five year old. You know, what I mean, or like working in a really sort of strict form like writing a villain allergy something, and I wrote like a bunch of these I wrote like ten poems. I think they're too used in the movie, and it was actually this really really sort of awesome fun game to play with even movie aside. It's like trying to write good poems. That were like fifty words and only using a five year old like good. Persona. But I didn't want them to be like these sound like children's. I wanted them to be like good poems that if you read in the journal, you'd be like, oh, that's interest. You know what I mean? But also that like a five year old, you know, could conceivably pull from there. My, you know, actually haven't seen the movie yet. Oh, it's like premiering and Sundance right now, do you know when you're going to get to see it is they're going on. I was contemplating making my way out to Sundance Z it. It just didn't work with head a lot of sort of plates spinning this month with the semester starting and stuff. But now, I don't actually I'm looking forward to it. Whenever I mean, I've read this script still. I see. Sitting on the well, let's get it. It's getting good reviews and stuff to school. It's an amazing sort of weird thing to have had happened in, you know, to get to do it with ocean is pretty pretty incredible. I hope you're Oscar when our kava. Have you written other poems, specifically with younger audiences in mind? That's interesting. Oh, I haven't you know, I read a high school sometimes. And it's always this sort of interesting thing to like go through my poems and p like which poems. Can I read that? You don't say bad words and don't allude to sex and aren't about like addiction, or at least aren't like about addiction in a really sort of like grotesque sort of nitty gritty way, also not just like, I mean appropriate. I know I know what you're actually saying. Yeah, don't haven't. I haven't have have you. Yeah. I think you have more explicitly job. Yeah. With with project voice when I was with them. Yeah. Then we were going into elementary and middle schools and stuff. So I have some like elementary middle school poems that you've written. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. It's weird weird. And you're sort of like someone who really sort of thinks deeply about like, the materiality of language in general, and like your poems are very sort of invested in experimental forms and like thinking way way outside the sort of box. We we sort of inherit as dived apper real. I'm sorry. I loved it. It's not just like in the sort of like avant garde like pussy monster way that you're thinking about like thinking outside the box, but also like pushing monster being one. Unafraid. What did you? Realize? No, it's like a it's also not an inaccurate. What did you? Like, you're also thinking outside the box, and like the ways that you know, like a language poet. But you're thinking outside the box like ways to make poetry accessible to people who aren't often thought of even you know. And then to be like, okay kids. Well, I had a pet goldfish. Just like, it's springtime. Beautiful beautiful. I love it's totally. It's totally different. I mean, I think the biggest challenge is to write things that also don't just make me like cringe as I'm saying them, right? Same sort of like self preservation move to try to write things that you won't feel shitty of totally we still, you know, there are things that kids relate to that. We will always relate to kids know what it means to be in love family too. Sad. You don't always need to. And I think that's it. I think if you're worth their salt as a poet over a period of time, you will eventually have some poems that you can read in front of kids because like the most foul mouth motherfucker, you know, evidence by fucker. But still, you know, I don't know I feel like I write for a wide range of people like I home that are gay bath houses and poems. That are for like black grandma's and five year olds. Like in the same. Yeah. They're in the same headed. I think it's because you know, I think poetry you've said this a lot how that poetry is so much about the light. You know, if you move through those many modes of delight enough, you're actually going to come to something that I think young people can identify with. And that's why I think the question of do you write for young people since I like the question. But I think what happens is that. When you ask that, you realize that actually young people are capable of a lot more Absolut. Absolutely. We actually say, and whenever whenever I read it a high school, or, you know, read for young people or whatever that's always the experience. I end up finding you know, I have I have written plenty of poems that they're like fully capable of stepping into. You know what I mean? I also think that it's you know, talking about this a little bit last night. But I find that there is the sort of like upside down bell curve, upside down parabola, or whatever we're a lot of the times, my sort of I think that like the poetry by like five and seven year olds. It's really really interesting. You know, what I mean because they're they haven't sort of been acclimated to like what a poem is supposed to be. They haven't been sort of in cultured in this way of like how you're supposed to sound like really sort of high falutin rain new new and find eager to try things out to be silly. And then, you know, as people start to internalize bad pop music, or, you know, like, you know, Taylor swift lyrics, or whatever that becomes what they have in their head is like what a poem is the sort of verse that is oftentimes people's first experience with like Melih fluish charged condense language, and so then they start to like imitate that and they're. And then it becomes a little bit less. Compelling to me. And then, you know, usually people will figure that out again, if they keep writing they'll figure out how to get back to that place of play and the light and fun like the introduction of the word, delight. Now this conversation that's important about a synonym of delight. Yeah. Wonder? Working on a essay about wonder in poetry. Yeah. I love how you look at things. Yeah. It actually might be. And this is like, you know, I guess I'm talking about on a podcast. I was about to be like this was low key off there. But. Downloadable. I think I think what it's actually becoming is a book length essay. Ooh. Which is exciting. And this is the first time I've talked about it with anyone besides like page and exclusive. Yeah. But no, I think that I'm writing long thing about how wonder his really oftentimes been the kind of precipitating agent for a lot of what we now experiences poetry, and what has been poetry through our entire culture. You know, the first attributable poem in human. History was written forty three centuries ago in twenty three hundred BC by the Sumerian, priestess and Doina. She lived in the Sumerian city state of or in. It's about wonder it's the sort of like praise song to this goddess Nana, but it's like sort of like in wonder of, you know, and so like the precipitating spirit of all of our species is Poetics is wonder, you know, is like is like a staunch -ment and be wilder men. You know, and I think that it's very very easy to chart a course through all of human poetic starting forty-three centuries ago and ending with you guys are. Contemporaries, just talking about wonder, you know, what I mean and using that as like the sort of guiding agent roomy talked about how the two most important things in life were beauty and bewilderment. You know what? I mean, we talk about poems being interested in beauty all the time. You know, poems. That is what everyone talks about ho- trees that they're beautiful. Right. But as important is that there'd be wilder whether that camin bewildered by grief or be wilder nice sadness or bewildered by rage or be wilder by love, you know, but there's some fundamental spark of like wilder and curiosity and wonder I think at the core of any sort of meaningful substantive poem. And that seems like an idea that could have big implications outside of just like poetry as well. Like, I'm wondering what like a more bit wilder or wonder ring wonder filled like world would look like outside. Isn't it? Cool that like that gets to be are. I mean, if you if you accept this thesis than my job becomes to be someone who sort of helps people to wonder moves Huma back into one familiarises the world around us something I think about constantly. And I, you know, I talk about this a lot because it's very very exciting to me. But like the fact that like every green thing that you see out there has this like magical ability to turn light from a star ninety three million miles away into matter into sugar into glucose, you know, what I mean like every blade of grass every tree leaf. You know, what I mean has this ability to take light from a star that would take years to get to into physical things that you can you know, what I mean? That's that's magic you know, what I mean. Too sticky insides. Our job as keep I don't mean to speak for anyone else. But it's seems to me that my job is a poet is to take that sort of wonder to take that and like make people see that and make people experience, you know, into like reignite, this kind of curiosity and people how close are wonder the divine for you and your work and see things. Yeah. Well, I mean oftentimes they're sort of inseperable temper in separate -able inseparable, right? G k Chesterton talks about having a vertigo of the infinite right, which I think is like a really really good synonym for wonder. Right. If we're talking about synonyms for wonder vertigo of the seems like a really really kind of perfect one. And that seems to bridge the gap between wonder and belief, you know, what I mean between wonder and the divine wonder that like forces you to lose your balance. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it has I mean. It has physiological repercussions. Right. Like, if you if you are like intensely wondering, you become less aware of your physical, self right? Yeah. That's why dervishes spin, you know. That's why you know. That's the Holy Ghost. And that's why we fast right like the less attention. You're giving to your physical body. The more present you can be to what lies beyond it. That's for sure. At the core of just about any sort of spiritual practices something that removes the cell from the body, and I feel like you're like the Neil degrasse Tyson of poetry. Just like look how cool. Cool. We're both very tall. We're both like sneaky tall people. Yeah. You gotta get like your old, man. Wait. I'm working. Like anxiety eating a lot like being on tour and stuff and like just being like really really stressed out. Like it's been hard for me to eat. Well, I have this wedding coming up in June. And I keep thinking like when you say this wedding. You're sorry. Transcended American poet page Louis coming up in June pre now that you've got to say. I feel like I'm like to sort of putting on weight. So that I can like intimidate any would be interlopers who. Come in. Transit. This is my muse. Every episode of verses. It would be a shame. If we did not ask our guests to read palm. It'd be silly. It'd be and podcast. So we're going to ask how to read a poem for us. Well, as we're in Chicago, I have a have Chicago poem. I mean, this is the Chicago poem that I have references restaurant in Chicago called resins restaurants open. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Y'all should go there. Okay. They've got a they've got a really really great lunch buffet. Oh my God. Oh my God. Again, like I'm trying to put on weight for the wedding. I grew up largely in the mid. I mean, I've lived all over the place, but grew up in various places in the midwest. And they're obviously there aren't that many person restaurants around. So there's this one in the heart of Andersonville called resits restaurant actually a few now, but back then there was only the one. And and so we would take these sort of pilgrimages as a family, you know, to to we would all sort of pack into the car and drive to four six hours or however long it was and like just like make a day of going to eat at resits restaurant family would definite- when we lived in New Haven. We would drive into flushing. Yeah. Yeah. Just being like. Just like breathe for a few hours to that's so real. It's so real, well, I mean, like, it's you know, I grew up, and I didn't meet my first Middle Eastern person until I think I was in sixth grade Pakistani kid, join my classroom, and then I did my first Orion until ninety even high high-school college college. Was you know, it was a desert. You know, what I mean for sure damn like just being able to go there and see like around waiters milling about dammit west. Very grateful for my dinky, Crean Catholic church of Connecticut now cool nickel. Minnesota. This is called res- restaurants, Chicago, nineteen Ninety-seven the waiters milled about filling sue Mak shakers clearing away, plates of onion and radish. My father pointed to each person whispered person about the old man with the silver beard whispered Arab about the woman with the I'm all person, the teenager pouring water, light the man on the phone. I was eight and watching and amazed. I asked how he could possibly tell when they were all Brown skinned dark haired, like us almost everyone in the restaurant. Look like us he smiled a proud little smile, a warm nest of lip said, it's easy said we're just uglier. He returned to his lamb, but I was baffled. Hardly touched my payment. I had huge glasses and bad teeth. I felt plenty person when the woman with light eyes, and blond Brown hair left. Art check. My father looked at me. I said Arab. He shook his head laughed. We drove home. I grew up. It took years to put together what my father meant that day. My father who listened exclusively to the Rolling Stones who called the Beatles. A band for girls. My father who wore only black even around the house whose arms cut chicken wire and make stew in bulged with old farm scars. My father, my father, my father built the world the first sound I ever heard was his voice whispering the as on my right ear. I didn't need anything else. My father cherished that. We were ugly. And so being ugly was blessed I smiled with all my teeth. Yeah. Our our producers has fallen. I ask you a question about how you read. How do you experience your poems in your body? What is what do they feel? Great question. Yeah. Like has like a particular movement. Like, even when standing it's really beautiful sea. And even when sitting down on the chair like we are on the studio the head is going. Yeah. It's it's a weird thing. I didn't even really notice that I was doing it. When I first started reading in front of people. And then a, you know, there was a time where someone pointed out to me, and I was like became really self conscious about it. And I was like, no, no, no, I have to stand really still and read the, you know, and then it was like all of my attention was paid to my physical body and trying not to you know. I mean, you guys have been around me enough that you know, that like I'm always playing with my face hair playing with here. You know, I'm like, I have a really really really strong manual fixation. And I'm like super super hyperactive when I was a kid growing up. My dad would always get so mad at me because I was constantly constantly playing with my hair. Like, I knew it was like super super compulsive. I couldn't stop doing it. And like. I just sit at the dinner table like with my hands at my side, just like white knuckles. Like, just like being like, don't touch your hair, don't touch your hair. And then like the second I stopped consciously thinking about it. I'd be doing it. So eventually, my dad just kind of gave up, but this is all to say that like when I'm reading, you know, they're there gets to be a point where so much of my attention is just in the poem, you know, and so much of my attention is just in the experience of the poem. There's this beautiful thing. And I'm sure that you guys are familiar with this phenomenon. But when you write a poem, there's sort of this kind of magical thing that happens, you know, even the supernatural poets talk about like ours flying by or you know, it just came to me, you know, you have to mind the language of the supernatural to talk about it. There's something sort of like extra normal that happens when you're writing a poem when you're really really sort of feeling the palm you connect with some bit of that, you know, when I'm really connected with that. I'm not thinking about what my body is doing at all, you know, and I can either allow my brain and my mouth and my tongue and my lungs to be connected to. That sort of precipitating force that gave me the palm. Or I can be worried about like managing my hands. Not doing weird shit, or my you know, my legs not doing weird shit. And it seems more useful for me in my readings more useful for me, and my connections to my poems to allow allow the former to happen that seems like very in line with what we were saying earlier about like, the super concentrated attention divine. Mike manifesting in like weird movements. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. If you made a diagram of my spiritual life and my poetry life. It would just be one circle on the page. You know, what I mean, like my poems are where I go to meditate and think about wonder in the fact that it comes out when I'm reading them. I think is, you know, altogether fitting and proper, I guess. This season a new segment that we've brought in is something we like to call knock out where we ask our guest to talk about something a piece of media piece of art, home it cetera. That's not to them out. Not on their feet. Recently wrecked. You have you thrown any books across the room. Lately thrown. No, no. Yeah. Yeah. Get us away from you. Have you guys seen cocoa? Yes. Oh my God. Have I seen it? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I saw it twice in theaters. And I still like, quote it at least once a day. I mean, this is not maybe I'm not talking about something cool, like a poem or whatever. But, but this is something that has been like it's mesh itself in my vernacular. I'm constantly voting. It, you know, like come on go. These things like it's so sweet and good and beautiful just like visually. Stunning. I wanna make some of those things that flour bridge. Oh, my God, you could just sink into holy shit. That's like out of a look, you know, what I mean like just like sinking into the pedals. So we have come to my favorite point of the versus podcast. They'll all them little game that we let's call this versus that. We're going to give you two things concepts. And we're gonna ask you straight up because we're violent. This is a lot of Cussing. Yeah. So your question is now who wins in a fight the New York school or the Milwaukee Bucks. Okay. Which Milwaukee Bucks? Are we talking about? I will even give you the action of like starting five all time. Okay. Well, okay. This is my favorite question. I've ever been asked because I get to pick my favorite five starting all-time bucks. You could also pick. Maybe like your five favorite all time like five posts from New Yorkers absorb that. Yes. Ports. Dollars. You can only use Milwaukee. Let's really good. So my starting top five all time, Milwaukee Bucks. And this is personal not like these would empirically be the best. This is like my personal picks point guard would be Oscar Robertson, okay shooting guard would be Ray Allen. Who is my all time favorite NBA player. And also has the best of any human being rate past head. Well, yeah. Late late Ray on we've had. Yeah. If you don't know rounds, Cavs Google school like Ray Allen, jump shot from behind and just I'm sure I'm sure that. It will give you what you need. Now what you deserve. The Cavs that you need small forward would be Glenn. Big dog Robinson power forward would be Vin Baker. Okay. Obviously Senator Senator would be cream Abdul Jabbar. The starting five for New York. Okay. Well, so Frank O'Hara angel Kenneth coke. Can I put auto corral as a as a New York poet because he went to? I mean, he's been there for a long strike. Yeah. James Schuyler would be on my team. And Morgan Parker. Just because I know it would make a really really happy to be able to hang out with Frank O'Hara to now who would win and this is like who'd win in like a fight like a like a like a win in a game of basketball. Now, I feel a three round things. So. Yeah. Slam basketball game the win poetry. Although cream of jabbar's sneaky, good writer. So they would put up a better fight than you think. As would I well, I don't imagine that like Frank O'Hare would have been much good at basketball. No two sets. He came up with really strange awesome. Cheers. Yeah. Yeah. He would have been like really really good trash talker. Maybe a couple of the bucks just broken down. Just like them apart, Jack, I love you Ray Allen. Yeah. That Carolina famously said something to the effect of lake Frank o'hara's ruining American poetry, and Frank O'Hara retorted that's more than you've ever done for it. Yeah. Yeah. So you know, that you know, that he would be shady. You. No, he would have had that. I feel like the poets would be way scrap year. Right. Yeah. I mean, Frank O'Hara guy hit by dune buggy. I mean, yes died he got hit by dune buggy on fire island. I feel like that's like way more metal than anything any of those basketball players have ever gone through. Although he did die from it. Yeah. Any more impressive. You're like. I think that the poets would be scrappy I think the POS would come out on top. You didn't put your team. I mean, not not over Oscar Robertson. Okay. That's real. That's real. That's real. That's real. Y'all this has been awesome Diddy. Look, thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun. This is expected it to be fun. And it was like even more fun than I didn't -ticipant it. Yeah. I'm a better person. That was so good. No. He's so kind and generous and like, so smart and wonder is just like I'm bewildered by him. Yes. Yes. What are you like the wilder by in a good way? Let spirit of bewilderment the covet was talking about. I've been thinking a lot lately, I think I've finally have made like all my family, a family of LGBT allies. And I think yeah. And I and I think like what I'm realizing like we are never so set in our beliefs that we can't learn to love new ways like your bewildered by like the capacity of people to compact people to keep learning to keep growing, our empathy to expand. And I'm not trying to figure out how it happens. I just have to like trust that like our love is good enough that we will push our, own empathy and understanding in order to reach those that we already the further they go into themselves. Oh my God. Well, mine sounds sort of dumb compared to that. What is it? Okay. Well, because I was just gonna be like animals. Great. I feel like constantly in rapturous bewilderment of like the natural world like so many creatures living on this planet that lived here for way longer than humans have been around about it, and whose evolution didn't have anything to do with us elephant is a magical creature. Really is. Yeah. Even a God damn moves is a magical creature, and I just like I feel so buried full birth. They learn how to fly and having staff sense. I mean, okay. I could we could talk. I just heard. We do. Birds. But I just feel so like grateful at the possibility that as somebody in their late twenties. I can keep encountering new animals the existence of new animals and just like be brought to my feet by like knowing that they are alive were animals shout out to empathize grandma's. We always. Get out of here. Yeah. Yes. Thank some actual people. I would like to thank kava Akbar's hairdresser. You know, you're really doing some things whoever you are just like shouts out to you. Yes. What a sculptor artiste learning. Artiste teeth star taste. On the subject of of being bewildered by animals. I'd like to think David Attenborough for actually like really introducing me to that world of bewilderment David what else? I would also like to thank the poetry foundation, especially a partner in crime. The host loudness and our producer Daniel kiss, your make sure to stay up on all things versus at VS to podcast on also media, and you can find all the episodes from this season and from one on some cloud. I tunes the poetry foundation website, the NPR one apps and wherever else you get your podcast goodbye. Farewell. Asleep? I'm not I know all the words, I do too very we're about to go watch this movie.
Aired 2 months ago 104:24
SAMMY AIN'T SEEN SHIT: UNBREAKABLE MOVIE REVIEW
And they say. Kosei knock goes to. Hold on to. Legal watch is over. I know that song word for word. Don't you dare? Give me started Berman. Curse. Everybody out there. Welcome to Sam easy shit. I'm semi double twist dot com. Short him on the other side is always we have Christopher juice, the juice loose and today episode one thirteen honor of 'em night's shadow on his back with the third in his trilogy. What was it the seven forty seven train trilogy. I it's this specific train trilogy that will get to with. S one seventy seven eastbound and down. Sequel trek will all trilogy whatever have you. He's back with glass people are excited about this split the surprise sequel to this movie right here near to thousands unbreakable, which is a movie I never even heard of until like last week. Jedi of 'em. Nice shot aligns movies village stuff. I had never heard of this one. Or even even had anybody talked to me about it ever interesting. So yeah, it's gonna be as a completely blind one. Oh my God. What is it? Okay. We'll get that. You say. Madam me. They're just putting weird things in there. But I'm gonna leave it up there because I am vexed Janda reason motivated, but the people were talking about well, I talking about people in here is schedule. Jillian again, conveniently out of frame, just jump in your Julia. We all around his wheelchair. Wendy's jackson. Glasses here. Everybody glass learned his books and everything stuff. How long have you ever again, wouldn't you leaving till tomorrow, but he's out here apartment hunting. So we'll talk about people who come visit us at are moving off in allegedly. So we'll talk to them in a bit. We'll talk about the people out there though, because these people are here spend, all of my mind can't do that. Right. These people are out here. But this many many people out there in the world are that don't join us here in the Williams. Those those city they're not lucky enough to join us in this wonderful abyss this of. This one of studio this wonderful spacious area there in their keyboards or other internet world typing away. This is a port in the show. And we're talking about the one the only that shadow tat set. And this is the vaccine know what this is and oh that's the fourth. Film. That one of the personalities split is that that's totally new heroes. James, McEvoy, whatever. Oh know who the fuck is asshole. God he's Joe Louise. Oh, man. On tonight. Thanks, man. Chat is. Loose. I gotta I gotta do this thing about Sam Jackson. I'll pull this up. We'll talk about it in a bit. I'm gonna ruin double this search history. There we go. But. Said hi to the chat chats, and they're having a good time. Oh, man. It's so it's all wonderful to have the chat. And there have everybody in here. But you know, it's really wonderful. Chris got Janice not cost you again transition there. Oh, DT Mertz dot com. Oh, it's right there. They got that toasted goodness. There's all sorts of great things you can get you can get the black outline t shirt the logo broderie thirty L at random the backpack, the stoop which will be gone, hopefully, soon really, and it's a coffee mug that doesn't look like coffee mug. Don't even know if there's a picture of it by itself. I know is is there a minimum out. Why would they do that image? I've always wanted to know like that image, particularly in Mars it. But there's usually a space in between. But it's the same graphic on both sides. I don't know. But you know, what it's twelve ninety nine to fifteen ninety nine tall glass. Atoglas fifteen glass of toasted goodness all over your insight actually know inside of your body. It's right. You can get some of this to goodness low over your body. And the missiles limited dish people asked about this hat. I got this a long time ago. Someone made it custom made nice and we didn't develop further, but I know there's a bunch of them out there. We might have to get onto the prototypes. I do have one of the prototypes. Actually, there's two other prototypes floating around. There's one toasty from our second anniversary that has a all white are full logo. Stitched on. I think dynasty has the only other one of these glittery inside he got a special edition one. Then. Then. And then that's it. So yeah, there's some rare limited edition kind out there. This is one of the prototypes. So there's some ones out here some the people bought them. But yeah, we might have these in-studio in the near future. But that's it for housekeeping man because people in here, you got the people out there. And and the thing is that not everybody can come on down here. They're not lucky enough. People can't even be here on time because well, it's just me. I'm sorry. I can't be on time because I'm me. But there's people they won't be able to watch this show live, and they watch in the meantime, so they won't be able to interact with us in the chat, you'll be able to get a hold of us, Chris. And that's just awful sad. Wait, we'll give you the option to talk to us at anytime. We're excessively we're out there. We get a hold of us could always start the top k cool man's GO dot com. That's Casey O L M ANZ conference questions com, Android. Vice you can find hit us up on Instagram at double toasted Fantasia is the whole place to get hold of us at double underscore toasted is where. You can find us now at under double underscore toasted. Just there's you'll find the same thing with Facebook, search toast, you'll find us there and you'll get one of them animated reviews every week on Friday or Saturday. It is exclusive animated and you can participate in Email Corey. But you know, what corey's cool now. But you know, what we're watching this show watching this show. You can always find me seven DC on Facebook excellence on all of social media, Chris can they find you get Twitter at Chris j hermit chicken on Twitter, Mr. Reveiz seven. Continent. Classic. Now back to the famous. Studios. You join us in here like these fine folk have or just. Just stay on line. I guess I guess something you can use boring. But you know, what if you're living your moving to Austin thinking about moving awesome. Like Julian here, let us know that way began sent an Email to you or you can send an Email to us. And that way, we can tell you with addresses, you can get rotel and all this other stuff, and that way we can. Comedy. Ooh, baby. But also other things we have a cruise happening. August's go check, actually if you go to double tos dot com. You can go to the special of vents page upcoming events page right dead center in the middle. It take a look real quick. And that should take you beside all the same L Jackson gives our anniversary cruise August fifteenth nineteen Cozumel Mexico or go Semillas, you would say, but yeah, there's the prices you could split it with the people's and. Yeah, February twenty fifth. There's the second payment is due for those people there. But there you go. There information. Oh, that's good. It's good for you there. And for those you in Florida, you can join us at playlist live being core. You're going to be there. It was February twenty eighth through March fourth that's gonna be a fun time. That's very quick. That's a listen to months away. So we'll be there have some there for use of your in. Orlando. You look at again will be there. And is there anything else we're doing Toronto? They're put some feelers out for it was late April. So yeah, Toronto. Hopefully, I get a passport by then and be able to join everybody there. But that's it for everything now onto the movie of the week. That's right on break, which is a two thousand American superhero thriller film, where security guard named David Dunn survives a horrific train crash after the incident with the help of a disabled comic art gallery, owner name allies of price. He learns that he possesses. Superhuman powers now in age superhero movies, we have another one in the in the in the barrel. Another driving the barrel. Of the superhero films, and as I mentioned before had no point of reference had no idea this movie was even thing. Like, really like, you talk about people talk about superhero movies. You talk about phantoms. You talk about comic book stuff. Right. This was a movie that was completely removed from any knowledge of what it was. I could I could kind of see that. Because this film was was way habits time. This is before spider-man's before X men, let before this movie we had X men was later in the year. Okay. So at the same time as experts still before this. We had Batman, Robin. You know, bam forever. Couples superman sequel he'll know you'll spawn we had spun needier man that was the state of superhero films that time so like this film, which is the deconstruction superhero film, which no one was really asking for even considered again. This film was just way ahead of its time where it was examining the books before mainstream. Even understood comic book films and the person to bring us. This. Wonderful twist. Shamlan we've done a movie of his on this show. We did last air bender. That was that was the week. Trump was elected. And that was not the worst thing that happened to me that week. So I didn't give it a fuck reason for some reason it didn't give it a fuck. No. It was stupid movie. But the worst thing happened earlier that week, but you may know from the six cents for having seen good movie signs. I have seen the village leading in the water the happening after earth, the visit split and now glass coming out in theaters tomorrow. I think is how it's going to go down. Yeah. Yeah. People are lukewarm on it. I was going to was going to have someone who sought Jake was supposed to be here, but not here. So something else doing something else. But you know, what? That's the weird thing about this movie. Which is like, okay. It's part of the beginning of should say a trilogy where you weren't expecting there to be a trilogy like you saw this movie when when it first came out. No, I did I listen to theater at a very young age. At very age, which I I couldn't really appreciate it. And I don't think Emmett Shamlan realize this was going to be a trilogy leaving at the time. He was saying like, I don't know. I don't really have a story for these other projects I want to concentrate on. I think it was until years later. It was like okay now, I wanna go back to this thing because split with sold is it being like a horror movie like exactly no one knew he was a sequel to break. Right. And even then when people say that Bruce Willis was in housing. Okay. I don't know what that means. Because I just didn't know that this existed. I your reference boy. And so now, there's a whole cinematic Shamlan universe. And then there's actually a callback dot a callback. But a Ford, I guess or whatever have you to split, which was confirmed by Sean lines movie. We'll get to that in a bit. But, but yeah, there's a lot of things here that now linked together with this. Trilogy from 'em. Nice Shamlan, which he's very hit and miss. According to what everybody really says. Well, funny thing I mean, this unbreakable was his second movie because he had just come off six cents, which is a cultural phenomenon. No it was. Was a youth when that happened eight saw dead people to. Yeah. Sure, I was terrified that movies. I saw I saw that. Maybe like the the app on DVD or VHS may. Seen it. But I knew the commercials. I seen them all of yours. So people were hot on this guy. So when he came out with I'm breakable people. I think at the time we're a little disappointed because it was not what they expected from him. They expect another horror film for thriller. And what they got was very kind of melancholy slow type of film. Right. And starring in this film showed on the poster you have Bruce, Willis and. Care care. And that's a problem now with the the newest glass, he just really heard he give a fuck to be in that movie was the one thing I was actually interested in. It's like is he going to be David done. Again, the fact that he's just being brutal. I will give me a paycheck. That's really supported me. I'm not gonna see that. No. That's exactly what they said on the movie extravaganza yesterday's go and watch that review that's already posted on YouTube. But yeah, apparently, he phones it in like variety math like it's supposed to be really bad. But everyone is excited to like you. They're saying that, you know, David Dunn gave his David done. This was his movie he didn't have chance to be much of a superhero. And that was a or new movie to to explore him being this character that we will talk about in just a little bit. I don't know why it got reminded of. But Samuel L Jackson man mean between between me being named Samuel and calling me. Samuel jackson. Just because they thought it was funny. Okay. What's up Samuel Jackson, share whatever? I haven't really seen much of his. Movies other than ventures every other film, we talk we know Jurassic part. I saw let's see what else say may have seen a man shit. Look a lot of bit parts and Phil especially during this time. This is when he was like after Pulp Fiction, he was appearing everything that he could like he had a lot of parts before Pulp Fiction. The always the guy that robbed the convenience store or the McDonalds coming to America and stuff like that. That was his thing from like the eighties all the way to the mid nineties, and then then that change about fiction, right? But the one thing about Samuel Jackson, one seventy like he's an old but separately this is kind of funny. I don't know I popped in my head. But it's funny. I have it's a clip of Samuel Jackson. So dragon ball z super burly came out. Right that new dragon balls good fairly. It's very exciting. People are very excited about it. And the fun fact about similar Jackson. He likes Annemie anime a lot. But the clip of where I found that out. It was a video. Let me see what was the name of the video. The video was Sam L Jackson answers, the web's most searched. Questions. And and this is where he admitted that he likes anime semi little Jackson like anime. Yes. I do hint to. Clip. I mean, it's a longer segment, but Samuel L Jackson loves Annemie anti teams. Probably old even make reference to jerk enough Japanese comic books over this movie. Do that's I wonder if he wrote that himself. Samuel Jackson is a dirty dirty. I believe he's looked at that stuff. Just look at the left that he had this up real quick that shit. He had a sinister Atlanta animate. Yes. I do hint to. Just like so matter of fact about it you dirty filthy, man. But now, he's great most things, and I've seen them in any way and seeing them in a superhero movie here where I've seen him as Nick fury. You know, starting the vendors initiative and that whole world seeing him try to discover and find a new superhero, that's was a lot of things. I was wow, there's he's played this role before as character. But but. Let's get into it. Because there's no time to waste no time to waste, but we're not going to do it. Because we want to watch the trailer for the two thousands on breakable. Just doing in east real trade number one seven seven has just outside Philadelphia. You certain you are in the past. Why are you looking me that Tansu question to have looking at you like this? One because it seems a few minutes. The officially be only survivor of this train wreck. In two. Rank one couldn't it be someone else doesn't get sick doesn't can hurt the rest of. And he probably. Kind of person. Stories. Eappen three major disasters. And you were the only one. Spoke with your husband about us. If I have. That suggested rather believable possibility since then I've come to believe that possibility. However. Decision. Stern. The scary thing. To not place. Often cheat special. X Ray vision things. This is not the right. Trailer giving away too much a fan may trail. I mean, I something about it where oh, yeah. You know, what has to be you, dammit? The guys leave nude unbreakable trailer van no you aspect ratio change. I realized it was like super letterbox. And then it went too big. So yeah, fuck that trailer point is. Yeah. Well, here's the thing. Again, this this film is so unlike so many superhero films of the time, and I think that's the reason why initially people did not react to it. They understand it. And now looking back on it nineteen years later after seeing all these marvel movies these films, the Batman the, you know, the Nolan trill Jill that you you really start to appreciate what this film did. And how in my opinion revolutionary incredible. It was it basically a deconstruction superhero film, presented to an audience unfamiliar of superhero movies. And the fact that chamois came up with that idea to me, I could understand what oh this guy is the future of cinema. That's why people say at the time. He is the next Bilberg. And if you right. Or calling this this knowledge, I have now I could totally see why people who not this film said that the time, and why his ego got so big comedy to actually someone in the chat revealed that this is the same soundtrack they use for the ironman three trailer. So yeah, definitely not the real trailer much better. Let me see if this one's fuck it. We'll just watch the more of a teacher the actual trailer real quick because I want to get some context of this move Asher. In a world, right? Emergency room Philadelphia city hospital. Nash some questions. Larry sitting on the train. The window in the passenger. You're certainly in the passenger car. The other passengers. Chained derailed took a Kirk too fast. A second train CLYDE with yours after derailed. Debris spread over one mile. Why are you look? To looking at you like this. One because it seems the only survivor of this train wreck. Two. Scratch on you. I know what's going to your mind right now. Just searching for meaning and all of this. One thing. One hundred thirty people died, so you could find understand the destiny from what you were born. Are you ready for the truth? We had check thrill are you in breakable dot com. He's still bailable. Let's go ahead and see that. Are. Break dot com. Probably buy the Blu Ray are. Yeah. There are to us. Let's see if we can do here. Oh, video dot com. Breakable index site can't be reached goddamn early and yet space jams. Website, really be accessed. Can't it's very archaic. It's rose. I guess. Warner Brothers lifted up. Untouched. What's up? Now. This is very interesting. Because again, like a lot of people went in the movie, they didn't realize are watching superior film thought, they were seeing isn't a thriller is another horror movie, you know, is it a monster movie, possibly they always associate chamo- of horror at this point. That's what people went in. They didn't they were like, oh, so I guess is a superhero type film. I didn't realize cool. Yeah. I mean marketing very quiet very slowly shows. I maybe ten minutes of the movie, and it was really nothing outside of that. See that nowadays. I mean, apparently though Infinity war game and saying we don't show anything past the first twenty minutes go, but yes, so anyway to start let's go ahead and get out of the way for the internet's because I want to thank everybody watching last week's episode, which was hands Lapper. And thank you for choosing this week's episode, which is breakable. But before we get into all the reviews. Go ahead hit the like button. Hit again, third time's the triple lake. Go ahead and subscribe to does dot com. Either down here on YouTube or for nine months on our website. It's fantastic. It's the greatest thing ever, and they should do it. Also team dot com right there. Chris right there everybody, and it's gone. Gic? And I think that's it. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, yes. Not it, Chris there's more. You get all our free audio on soundcloud or on tunes podcast, and you don't have to pay a dime for it. That's that's pretty awesome. You can pay ninety nine cents for one episode. You can be our episode. He'd be the flow of is. Because unbreakable is such a movie is it a great movie. It was a bad movie find out right now. But with this movie, here's the thing. I as I told you before I didn't know this movie existed like this. Weird to not know that movie exists at some point being around the audience and being on the people that I'm around movie, critics and film fans and fucking film and media studies graduate, you think I would have heard of this movie, but it completely just went out of my reach out of my reach out of my radar. I had no idea. This was anything could imagine that could be based on two things one. This came out early in in shovel after six cents when when the radar it was what people are expecting and two because someone's career went so downhill after this film, people are tired of stick especially after films. Like, you know, what the water was it happening last Arab after. Although sills Baird, and it was just associated where it's like he made that one good movie night nine nine that was it could see that for mainstream on someone's done familiar with the inter inter games that word the intricacies of intricacies Kasese of film that they would forget about this. Yeah. And so, you know, people like oh man now with with glass coming out split coming two years ago. Leave it with sixteen. Now, he's still seeing January twenty seventh. Sixteen people are talking about this movie again, right? And they all say the same thing because leading up to this episode. You kind of mentioned before with the first year that we accidentally played. That everyone that told me about this movie leading this week leading up to it. They said the same thing you did this movie is a deconstruction of the superheroes genre. Everybody told me and I'm like okay, red flags red flags right away. Because one that sounds super boozy, of course. It sounds like. So it sounds like it's something that is if everybody's able to say that everyone says the same thing about it. That means it's too on the nose, which was totally afraid of that this movie was going to be something that hammers the point. I get this is a comic book movie. Yeah. We're gonna go through everything does it. And I'm over here thinking, oh because everybody understands is everyone describes it as the same thing that it's going to be ham. Fisted it's going to be over the top. And it's going to be hell to hip street for my ass because I like silly shit. Sure. And I'm very critical when it comes to things trying to be RT because I can tell the difference when someone's trying to be artsy when someone's bullshitting trying to be okay. And so not to say, I'm better, I'm better than the people because I didn't know anything about this because obviously hadn't seen it yet. But I was concerned. And then the opening scene happened where it starts with those titles. And I was like oh, man. Are they really going to do this? Like are they going to really be about superhero comic books and stuff like that? Because I'm not ready to hear all this nonsense. What happens? Nothing very quick. Jesus chris. No. Baby sustained some. For actions. Oems lex broke. Damn that's more of a deconstruction of a baby. And it was a destruction. Awful. I was I read the first thing right here. Talking about thirty five pages and twenty one hundred twenty stations and the average comic book, and they have three thousand books and page comic book movie, again, that's what I was worried about. I was like oh shit. Here we go tell me everything. And then it opens in this long one shot of a woman giving birth in a convenience. Or something like that. And then all of a sudden, I'm feeling bad because I'm sure this baby has broken legs. This is totally not cool. It's actually pretty intense. When you think about it, you know, how to open yet it immediately get a grabs your attention and just how how builds to especially how the guys like interacting the kid. He's like, what did you drop this baby? That's happened. Yeah. You know? And then when he says that it's broken limbs. It's just oh just grips you when you just feel I always felt really nauseous opening seeing it sets you on edge perfectly. And it's like what's gonna happen? Right. If you're gonna break baby's arms and legs putting shot that means, okay? There's gonna be some shit that happens which does. But you know, there was something that was kind of the one thing that I didn't know about this movie going in from the week. I found out this movie existed was that in in the new movie glass that was named is the guy was Mr. glass, it was about Jackson and how he is super brittle. Now, I didn't disease bone disease. Where he is. He doesn't make the right proteins or whatever. So as super brittle. But I also just didn't know that that Bruce Willis was super strong. I didn't know that. That was the premise of the movie, I was like, okay. This guy's wheelchairs, obviously, just breaking himself. All the time. I had no idea even though I knew that about it. Yeah. I knew nothing else. So going in learning about Bruce Willis. Okay. Well, he's just a dude up into this. He's just a dude completely blind. I was completely blind going into this. And so watching this little girl on the train, you know, seeing him in between the chair, whatever have you. And this is also another super long shot where Shama. A camera in the perspective of child looking back and forth between Bruce Willis talking to this like NFL scout lady and my first impression of this guy. Like Netscape piece of shit a little bit because he takes office waitering puts it away. And he's trying to chat up this. This this hot little thing. You know? Sure. What I love about this opening scene is that despite the title character, David Don is a broken, man. Oh, he is. He is shattered literally where he has a briefing a little a smile, and he tries to flirt with this person. And it goes completely wrong. And you could tell he's just he's so depressed, he puts his wedding Wayne back on he's wants to disappear from the world. You could tell something immediately wrong with him yet. Motionlessly? I it's just like God. And then I get very this starts negatively just keeps going on like that very somber tone. I was kinda like, well, I didn't know that. He was I figured okay. Well, he's just kind of schlub. Whatever have you know, the ring. I honestly I was like. This dude here you can't right? I guess so. But my thing was the wedding ring man study right dude away. I was ready to turn on him. Because I do dude. Maybe as one of those former glory type things already planning in my head, which we'll get to in a little bit about this movie. But I was like man this kind of sucks. I don't know if I want to root for this guy right away. But then of course, what happens is the train starts speeding and everybody fucking dies. And oh shit. Anybody know what's going on here? But no everybody a little girl dies that scout lady. Everybody dies and his son. Unfortunately finds out on the news because he knows that his dad's on that train. And he's starts panicking, everyone's panicking because of the wreckage was like a mile wide and people were being flown. Fucking people fucking murdered. Everyone's just dies and train murder train. It was. I read the train allies I used to read train in California and that should derail. All that's dude. Did it end up quite like that off the tracks? And they got you back on maybe like one or two people die over time. But it happened in frequent enough but frequent enough to be like shit we're late again because train derailed trainer. No. No, no. This is America even belts. Do not trains. Actually, those are. No, right. Never ridden. A train true Joe ice. Right. Amtrak all the time, and they don't have belts. I don't think they have seatbelts really on the buses, you you you had to wear seat belt that was a new thing on the buses Amtrak buses never had where seatbelts and there through college. I could have been fluid that was when I could have been flow for serious go into the mountains. Icy roads shit and just like I would have been dead. Now, it's a new rule, but here everyone's dead everyone's dead. And it's it's an awful crash. But. What's really tragic about it is the way that we find out that everyone's dead. And it's a moment in the hospital where he's being checked up on. And they're helping another guy who may have chances, but really won't make it. In the Philadelphia city hospital. Serious accident sitting on the train against the window passenger. Did you get up from your seat? Certain you were in the passenger guard. Chained rail some kind of function. Found two people so far you and this man one because it seems a few minutes you officially be only survivor. This train wreck. Into. One bone. Scratch on you. And it's fucked up to see a scene like that. Where it's like that's dope. He survived. He's a superhero. But then you look at the cost of it. And it's just my God all these families waiting for their loved ones to come out of the hospital room. And none of them are going to be satisfied before when you have that initial shot where it's just like him and the discipline. You see the guy's chest trying to breathe in everything. You learn half fucking faces been crushed in its right? Yeah. I could tell you could see and he's just staring off blankly act that guy the entire time. Not looking at the doctor. He's seeing that guy. And he's again, he is a broken person. He is so cut off from where he is right now because he doesn't want to be reminded of what he is the entire time because he's afraid of that. And that's. Think he's known this entire time. God he's he's denied at the entire time. And he has a constantly reminded. It's like look, and he's you know, he's having these these callback to he knows the fact that he survived, and I think he says like why did I because he's denied, and he doesn't want to accept it until eventually certain things happen to film. A so so you're saying that he knew or he said he suppressed eastern time. But this certain instances like this bring this out in where he's a staring off into the middle distance. He's got that thousand yard stare like it's PTSD. But like it's happened before it exactly so other than so we'll get into a little bit. But other than the car crash, and then the drowning you so you think he knew from other instance, I think he's always known because he's never felt right ever since. Then as kind of as we get into like how the deconstruction of his marriage ship of his son was just he has no friends. He's totally lonely, and I think because he's just a nine who he actually is. Right. And it isn't until after the funeral where everyone listening. All the names of the people that died that's fucked up having a mass funeral Pat. I mean, I know it's like a Waco, whatever. But unlike. It's not unusual. I know, but that's a lot of people that do that for man. That's kind of. Epochs the wrong word to describe it as but just kind of take your breath away. Yeah. The cost, you know, would people would I appreciate people would sit there. And listen to these people the profession is what their family is. It shows that the the emotional cost of that happened to all these people it really spoke to me kind of made me watery eyed you've times in this film. Why was almost at the point of crying? Really? Yeah. Yeah. I did because I've seen it again after so many years and just like, wow, they're like the tone that struck with me how it took its time. Yeah. I really appreciate it for that. Yeah. See for me. I was just like damn, man. I wouldn't even show up the only guy to survive, I wouldn't fucking. I'd be like I'm gonna let them have their thing. That's looking at least looking it was like fucking piece of shit. You're the one that survived like, you could tell it. They're all mournful. But they're looking him. Like what the hell right? Why the one? Why him? Exactly. Yeah. All the newspapers are there. I don't wanna just don't. I'm trying to be family. A why this have I don't know why I'm the only one alive, and it isn't until he goes to that service. And he goes to the parking lot where someone left a note for him on his windshield. That ask them very particular question that he doesn't have an answer for. Did you ask them to check somebody's sick days? I've taken since I worked here. I checked all right now to taking a sick day five years. No sick day. I get you wanna raise smart way to make it point. This time. I was sick your member. Kind of weird. Remember in one cold fever sore throat? Means probably tired to remember. And you have to really think about it. Like, do you? Remember the last time you were sick. Like, I mean. 'cause I forget yesterday. That's the only one I remember, but like sore throat, if I've been, you know, taken out of commission. I barely remember. When those times happen. I don't think it's been years since I've been bedridden like that. But like for him to realize I haven't been sick this year, but have ever had a sore throat or fever, and he's just never had. But he's never thought to even think that. Oh, yeah. I should have a sore throat. Oh, my I should've allergies. I should have a runny nose or something. I should be sick. Because he had five years day off just goes to work this healthy as an ox, and and that's it. And for me, you know, if you're like, I'm thinking, if you're an health normally healthy person, you don't think of the time to get sick and being conscious of unless you are sickly where it's like. Yeah. I know I get sick. I know this is the time on the type of guy. I don't know about you either get sick very little for a long time. Like I'll have a week or I'll get sick for three days, and then be healthy the rest of the year. Like, I don't know. I'm like guy that'll get sick. Maybe once year in take me out completely. For like three or four days, and where I'm in bed the entire time. But I still remember those. But the most part that's sent me knows or something. Right. Right. So so when he's trying to recollect I was like man, what am I got sick? And and it kinda gets you got to realize that he is is healthy as he is that little reveal how he himself as even question. Like, okay. Well, that's kind of weird. When was the last? It's just never thought about that kind of thing. Right. And you go from this simple question to a flashback that fades black and goes into a flashback to the seventies west Philadelphia born and raised and it goes to Mr. glasses a kid who's cooped up in his room of the outside world of getting another bone broken. And at a certain point. I'd be like, yeah, I'm sick of this shit. I don't wanna go outside or every time. I fall down. I break my clavicle. Like, I'm not okay with that. Yeah. Well, if you if you side. Well, she says that you could fall on the wave from the chair to the TV and break your ass if God wills it. So it's like, okay, there's a little bit of religious element in there. But he goes outside and his mom kind of goes outside to get this gift and the gift of being a comic book, and she says, well, every time you come outside, you know, and have the risk of falling and breaking your ass. You get a free comic book because she bought a bunch of them and certain point, you know, he creates a love and hell even an obsession with comic books. Something a lot of people. We know. I mean, I know a lot of grown men into the spiders and cried that's like for me that you can do it. I'm not saying I'm not Gillette in this shit. Where it's like, you're not married if you cried, it's just something. I wouldn't do. I wasn't as invested the most passionate of toasties. I love this this whole scene. His origin story him as a youth and him realizing what his destiny is the one big criticism of this movie. It's really only one is some of the camera work that someone does it's very weird to me. Like, he has a thing where it starts where you're looking into the camera like the the upside down, it's slowly spins and still upside down the entire time. It's kind of disoriented for me, maybe it's a personal thing. That's kinda weird. And he has a few other things where he has seen that like it slowly goes forward and pans over. Maybe you have. That's bizarre weird camera work in some place. Right. And it's not necessarily like creative. It's just kind of weird like I've never seen this before. And I don't really like it. Right. So but anyway, so good though, it's good. And and you know, he he starts off with his is his glove comic books everyone. Yeah. I don't know. I was ever really into comic books themselves. But are you into books themselves become books? So what was the first comic book, you were gifted or you found or having to policies. I was gifted must've been something was Spiderman honestly was probably something from I can even tell you the the era which come came from. Okay. Go ahead nineteen eighties. Spiderman this is when he was fighting the hobgoblins the first appearance of the goblin. I believe of course, you know, the hobgoblins are one knows original identity was Ned Leeds before he was replaced with Raja Kingsley. Fucking Rodrick Kinsley. No one likes him. But then he became Jason McIntyre. And there was a whole nonsense. But Ned leads the hob goblin that was my favorite Spiderman enemy now. I think that was the first comic book ever read. Yeah. Spiderman versus the hobgoblins. See I I. So the only time I coming book. Actually, I found it. I want to open imaging tab, I found it's it's only one of my I want to say, it was my oldest sister's ex boyfriend of hers from college like, I don't know this guy, but apparently had a surplus of comic books, and I got like three of them. But my favorite was the one on the left a holographic thirtieth anniversary Spiderman agreement are there is that the lizard. I don't know who's in it. It has a poster of I wanna say it's wolverine Spiderman and silver surfer sight of. I might have I still have that somewhere. But yeah, that was the first guy was ever given that one right there that holographic cover is the shit. It's fucking. But after that, I never really got into comic books. I was never really my thing. Do you never collect the trades? Right. Storyline comic books themselves. The only comic books I ever got really where from the back of marvel legends action figures, I was really. They had some very choice ones based on the character. So I had like captain America and iron man, a whole fury. Sure. I'd read those. But that'd be it. I wouldn't go out and buy comic seeing. But not say, I don't like what you get though. Is that Mr. glass, I'm gonna call Mr. glasses? Here was live here. Price takes this obsession with comic books. Very seriously. He's able to make a career out of it. And and he sees comics as a true art form as as a continuation of legend away to continue legends. If you will pass down from generations before I just ended up being bastardized by the machine Marshall commercialism, but he believes the he's found a real life superhero. Because he's looking for a person who survived a great tragedy tropic accident. He's trying to find an origin story if you will in news, and it sounds. It sounds crazy as you think it is coming from a guy who surround himself not only with Ultime comic books, but with hieroglyphics. This is from Fritz Campion's own library. This before the first issue of becoming book stands in nineteen sixty eight. This is vintage wrap it up. You made it considerably wise decision. Kid's gonna go bizzare. The fuck. Jib? He's four. No, no, no, no, no. You need to go and one of us as made a gross error and waste to the other person fag time this is an art gallery, my friend, and this piece of art. We're by appointment only. I got a card from the store. Congratulations. You have a mailbox exhibition to two weeks. This was under the windshield. Wiper my car, how certain I'll you that. You'd never take. Seventy five percent. That's not certain at all is it. Studied the form of comics intimately. It's been a third of my life in hospital bid nothing else to do. But read. I believe comics are last to an ancient way of passing on history. I believe comics on form of history that someone somewhere felt or experienced then, of course, those experiences that history got chewed up in the commercial machine. Got jazzed up made titillating cartoon for the sale. Rack watched the aftermath of that plane crash. Watch the carnage of the hotel fire. I watch the news waiting to hear very specific combination of words, but they never came. Then one day. I saw a news story about a train accident. And I heard. There is a sole survivor, and he is miraculous. I've had fifty four breaks in my life. And I have the tamest version this disorder. If there is someone like me in the world, and I'm at one end of the spectrum couldn't it be someone else. Opposite of me the other hand the kind of person. These stories about. Good luck with your. Kind of job. Said you've met guys like men your work. What exactly is it that you do work at the university stadium? Security guard. So Bruce was like this guy's fucking crazy about it. Yeah. This guy's fucking crazy. Because I mean, we know guys like that fucking comic book historians. They can. Yes. Down the way of every type of comic of how the can perceive it and how they can treat it as an art form other than dressing prince. That's pretty accurate. We don't like. Better. I know certain friends of ours. Morton actually know Martin does kind of Martin is Mr. glass. I'm just kidding. He's not. But, but no, actually, you know. Yeah. I would appreciate a more. If they were dope, suits, like one thing. I was noticing throughout the fucking suit purple. But that's the thing. I don't know why took his kid with them to hear all the shit out. Because he's like oh coming gallery. Let's go son. But that whole thing, you know, Bruce Willis to shit or was it David David done. But it gets puzzled. He's just like, okay. Well, this guy asks have never been sick. I'm not sure I've never been sick. But this guy thinks that I'm a superhero, and you could tell even though he's kind of kind of what's the word kind of passive about it, like whatever this guy's crazy eating at a very well. It's like, okay. Yeah. He's making a point about him being unbreakable. But then me I survived this crash. We don't know yet. Actually, we do know these. The crash, but you know, you look at his his paper clippings here. And he's a star athlete broke all the records. And he's the only person to survive only survivor of the train crash. Oh, yeah. He's going back to the train crash. Car accident? He was a star football player and his gifts that he has a player even his wife recognize like I didn't like football. But you were fucking grain your physical amazing. It is sad that that you know, that accident caused you to lose your ability to play football. I think you know, a lie characters the first one to finally confront them with this. He's never been really confronted with this before in this way. Like everyone else is like, oh, you're the star football player all your good security guard. But no one's like you've superpowers. And when he finally someone does that to them it's bring all this back and where he's fine looking at his pass. And you know, I think he's just as you said before he suppressed for so long. He's known about it. I think the entire time. He just doesn't want to go there. I think he scared because he is he has been so separate from self. He's he's rejected everything that he won in his life that would make him happy in that potentially to do something that would give him some type of film int-. He's he's always so apprehensive about that. Right. And what's interesting is that they'll bring up this accident over and over again over over and over again throughout the movie as the fact that he couldn't play after very vague about that they and say, okay, broke, he broke his spine or he broke his foot or is throwing rotates say, just whatever couldn't do it anymore. But just enough for us to get by. I question that he was he was injured Twi. But at the same time, he's looking at this paper like, okay. Well. Was I ever injured was I ever sick. I mean sure survived the car crashes if I'd train crash. Why is this the case? And from there, we see Bruce Willis, I'm calling versus easier that way David they see them working at the stadium the Philadelphia Eagles stadium. Whatever have you college football college football. So I don't know what team it is. But he works acuity, and he's interrupted by Mr. glass trying to come in using a bootleg ticket and Mr. glasses trying to explain to him that. Yeah. No. I'm telling you, your superhero, you are superhero. And you better believe it because. I break. You don't even though you're not sure even though there's some variables out there. You need to know that you need to explore this because I need to make sure I find the superhero because he's so obsessed with comic books, and you didn't make man. This guy's just weird. He's like I mean, that's a big crude or anything weird fucking cripple, dude. Just like, hey, you makes you hear fall you at fucking work. It's insane. Yeah. No that you need a character who is very odd for this film to establish the science fiction element of because everyone else for the most part, it's very normal or some other characters who are odd. But there's a reason why they are much later in the third act, but you need that element in there to introduce this type of stuff to get used to it the entire time. That's the importance of Samuel Jackson character before the ending with him. This is where I think he is most best serve. Introducing this very very foreign concept to matron oranges that don't know anything about this, right? Play the clip. Why is it do you think that of all the professions in the world you chose protection? Camouflage jacket sometimes people carry weapons in here. And they drink too much team's not doing good. Thanks. How'd you know that you bumping carrying weapon? Got. Picture of silver gun with a black grip. Pence. Okay. I got to be done on the sidelines during the game. You can get to your see right comic so often Chevy special in visibility expert vision things of that sort. Okay. Play this game. Any it's an exaggeration of the truth one. That's question. Car accident? It was there. Anyone else involved? My wife Audrey choosing the car with me. Good life Elisa. Mother fucker. Doc. There's nothing rated PG thirteen one. That's one. That's another. It's true. I think the been rated r. He should've said. Good deal now. All right. I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna try because I think it'd be good YouTube don't fail me right now. Samuel L Jackson. They're gonna give you a nice spread of those. I just want it. I just want it. Let me go ahead and to set this up because I think it's going to be cool areas here. Let me go ahead and. And. Here we go. Only somebody. Eat everything. Eight eight to burn every fucking motherfucker. Mother fuck out Q is. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Fuck. Own the mother fuck fuck fuck mushroom crowd, laying motherfucker mother fucking. Close motherfucker tastes like pumpkin, Pat. But I never know. 'cause I would need to fill up mother. Mother of two one. He says a lot husband far into that clip before him sane motherfucker. Fifty six go the fuck to sleep. Fifty six seconds into that. That was more the focus than I could ever hopeful left. It's nine minutes of mother fucking that should have been named the children's book twenty nine minutes. But. Oh def fuck. Great sing when he falls down those stairs flying that nauseousness came back. Just like in the beginning the movie when you when you hear when he broken bones as a baby. Yeah. Well, not only that. But like he seems like he's doing this out of almost like a crazy Ernest. I need to find out if he has the gun with the black candle into silver. I had this this revolved around my life for so long. I need to have this be real for myself, and I will risk injury life and limb literally, and that was the thing because this doesn't prove God damn thing towards him. You know, having some sort of vision extra. Clairvoyance as you were saying, but like he's really to throw it all out there. He's really going for it. He knows that he can fall apart like just like fucking Cain right there. And it's almost like his intentions were noble, which is a kind of a great thing for a character will eventually become something else, which we'll get into. But. But at this point in the movie, you're like, oh, man. Well, this guy he really believes this and he's really trying to it's almost from a fan boy as opposed to like a nefarious respective star. He's he's invested in there for we are invested in. He has his earnest is where is he is. He is still kind of charming again when he is monologue ING, we listen to those monologues. And we liked them. Right. And so with that. Bruce, Willis, like, okay. This guy's fucking crazy. He needs to leave me the fuck alone. So he's going home from work. Catch sudden playing playing football. Hate you for doing that? And he's like, well, hey out my dad, let's go lift weights and fucking whatever. Because like you said, he's a loner. And so he's out there looking weights and his sons putting on weight, but his son also has this thing in the bag of his dad's Zuber heroes. I mean, it's fair enough to be like, hey, dad compla- football used to be all-star not. Hey, dad. You're fucking superhero. Come beat this young guys ever have these people exit. Right. And as we see that kid as taking it to heart that my dad is a fucking superhero, which I mean, it's kind of sad because it's like, you know, what we see is kind of right now, Mr. glasses grown men child ideas being put onto a young child. Putting his dad endanger but putting on too much weight. Much you put on there. Put too much two hundred and fifty pounds. How much new? Most IRA lifted. Wait, wouldn't you check how much weight your son put on? He's just fucking. All right. I'll just this. Wait. Fuck it boom in this movie is really turn his head. He's always looking straightforward at all times. Yeah. When he's during that one seaways in the hospital. He's never looking like side to side. It's always straightforward at that guy. Excuse me. He's turning his head right there. She knows about the happen. He's crying and everything come on, man. But no, yeah. Bruce Willis, he's a machine in this right now. And he's putting up this way. Nobody's business. Did you take off? Seventy pounds. More. How much did you put on that type? Debt? Three hundred fifty pounds. Swollen? That's a lot of way to put up. I mean like what should've Felix. What do you put a Felix? What do you put up one rep? Four. So he's doing he's doing more than you. What the fuck you talking about ten pounds more than you, get your Felix? But he's also Bruce Willis, a super old at and not fit rain on this point. He doesn't lift normal like he's two to fifty. He's thing. That's all you can do. But he's putting up a hundred pounds more than it. Usually does. What's interesting about the scene is that he shows like, okay, he struggles lift at wait as it goes on. He doesn't he's consistent. Just same struggle. All even worse. It's the same thing we could have gone way beyond that. Right. So I'm like holy shit. Whereas angry gets the more. You get sure. Sure. He's even notice it. I think right. And that's weird because it's not really super strength. But it's kinda like when was kept in America where it's peak physical p Cuban condition human condition, and if you think about him as a football star, and how us like running over everybody like shit kinda be nice advantage to have over everybody people. But as a right now, you know, he benches all this weight. He's starting to buy. Into the bullshit and his son like my dad over here. Fuck. Yeah. But on the other side of the world, Mr. glass is completely shattered for lack of a better term and he's in physical therapy. And they somehow through convenience is taken care of by Bruce, Will's wife, who's also a physical therapist, and he starts asking questions about her life. And and does he know you think about her husband does he know that that's their married or find out? I I mean, you have to kind of go in there. It is a plot convenience. I think because he is so independently wealthy these I want this person physical therapy. 'cause I know 'cause I researched. This guy looked his entire history is I wanna talk to this. I gonna get a new perspective. I kinda went in with that part of it into seen. Okay. Because he's asking all these questions, and he's like what I'm nervous. But he's like, oh, how'd you meet your husband? You've been married for twelve years. I heard he was in an accident. Oh, wait what? Okay. How do you know, all this churns creepy? And and he's, you know, at this point just like a weirdo now. He's doubling down on that weirdo part. Where thinks he's a weirdo. But. Bruce Willis things that he's a weirdo. But he might be right. Yeah. Which is kind of like a weird dynamic and they'll develop that a little bit later. But right here, you know, he's they're talking about like, okay. Well, you know, your husband, I believe he's a superhero essentially superhuman abilities. And she's like man I've seen guys like these are bedridden they come up with these delusions. He's mentally ill. He's fucking psycho. Bruce Willis is like, okay. I might be a superhero. I'm not sure my repeated again, the sun is like DAT superhero fucking dope. We wouldn't you be? Excited that your dad was a superhero I'd be jazz about pretty kitty actually, bring up against kick your dad's. Put three fifty no problem. So. At this point. Where you have these dynamics of opinion on how your opinion on Mr. glass your opinion on Bruce, Willis, whatever they may be whether you know, this is real or not because I mean. I guess when you're watching this movie for the first time not knowing anything about it two thousand you're like, well is this a superhero movie or is this guy? Just exceptionally lucky or strong is this guy psycho those questions are still in the play. This is not by definition a superhero movie yet that's kind of the part of the twist that you get that. We know now being in the present. But you have that kind of idea weighing on you when this next part comes to fruition because he started thinking, okay, we'll do I have x Ray vision too. So he tries that out a little bit. And then the movie itself goes note, there's a superhero movie goes all in and it manifests in one of the strangest series of scenes that I've seen in what you would call a superhero movies. Seven thirty seven crashes take on considered. Now, I'm gonna stop it there. Because fucked 'em Nystrom Alana's theories Dino at the significance of red after the movie came, right? So apparently this lady and the little kid is James McEvoy and his mom from from splits Kevin's cousin. I haven't seen the movie the whole is Kevin the horde. That's what you think. I put a d at the end there. You got put a at the end of the hor- many name. Singer serious dissecting this film such a mature way. You've. During the weirdo. Kid weird arsenals. But what I read also about that movie was that that lady beat the shit out of them shoes. And so then having twenty-five personalities was throwing her shit off. But like, that's straight. Yeah. We'll just little reaction. Even if that wasn't the case, I mean. Yeah. Ret condit. But having something in there where it's like, wow. You heard the screams of the child through her body. That's fucking weird one of this kind of leaving it alone. There's another scene that's very similar to this. I'm sure you're gonna show it what I like about. This is very similar to superman where superman he has all these incredible powers. But he can also hear all the suffering in the world mold time, but he has to cut himself off from because he knows he can't save everyone. And I think this is that type of Bruce wills the fact that he put this in a in a film in two onto this superhero film in two thousand so head of it's time to do something like that. And again, that's why is so cut off from people. That's what has to be so mostly because he literally feels and knows these people have gone through all the time. We can't have any friendships or connections. It's really think he's had the whole time. Even beginning when he had that feeling that guy has his gun key knows that guy has gone Susie touch feeling. He saw right. But he doesn't want to admit to it to someone else because he's scared in the chat over here is like, well, that's Kevin. Who that you saying that or is it different Julian in the chatter in the chat right now. Okay. No. It's another joint actively retroactively someone said. Oh, yeah. This is Kevin. But at the time this is abuse kid. That's fine. I think school Saint like that kid. That's sorta here crusaders bringing elbow dunker. Here's my man knows it. Yeah. Say the kid little kid from ironman to Peter Parker. You you can buy into it or you can call bullshit. It's I think it's cute. It works. It works. People are blown or whatever have you. But yeah, he he did confirm that. So. That I haven't seen but ties back into the movies that have come out in recent years, but let's get back to that scene. These real trying to real seven and a half miles outside the city one hundred thirty one. Survivor. Do you mind if I check your pockets? Go. Hope you find. Also waters. No, no. It's more emotional damage. Not not too serious physically. Nothing like what he said you'd have hospital. You don't remember mentally? Pitching. Kit. Nearly drown Coble. He say on the bottom of the poll for five minutes, and when I put him up. Extent. Still phobic of water. Because your dad. Photo may be like you of not like cute. Are like me. Can both get hurt. Just an ordinary, man. Why do you say that? I just had this realization someone has thing with water weaknesses. Yeah. Alien aliens. But assigns this movie fucking air benders the fire nation tribes from the water. From the village don't lady in the one leading the water that what's with his water, man. You must have traumatic experience when he was younger. I I let's let's go drought him. Let's see what happens. I think we should drown schon to see if that's his weakness. He's he's a superheroes. The the what they call a Stanley in the ratios up. The watchers. Yeah. Yeah. He's his own watching his move drug dealer slash I told the people in signs at the water's there. And then he was in the fire nation. I think or something like that. I don't know what's in that movie. Did he give him a cameo in in number? I hate that film so much. I'll make remember no fucking. We got we got. Well, we got kids with guns talk about give it a second with the Halley doing. Believe I'll show you kick it hurt. Joseph. Listen to me. Sometimes when people get sick or hurt for a long time like Elijah, they're mind gets hurt too. Don't do it. He'll die Joseph shoot. At once. Stroke of listen to what you're. Scared. If you pull that trigger I'm going to leave to understand, I'm going to go to New York if you pull that trigger that bullet is just going to bounce off me, and I'm not going to be hurt. But then I'm going to go up stairs. And I'm gonna pack and I'm going to leave for New York. Because I thought we were just starting to be friends for real. And they don't shoot each other. Do they Audrey? No shooting Joseph. One. Follow the guy in the camouflage jacket. Fucking joseph. Great after that scene. I mean this job, but I was Susie fear. Not like one to not make any way shooter jokes and to 'cause I don't wanna hear this comments. But to. It was like, wait. What's this? I mean, I understand the kid is impressionable. But for fucks like, I'm gonna shoot my dad movies a superhero. That's that's a weird turn this movie to make I feel I think it's just how broken this family is how. Yeah, I mean, the family's not unbreakable. I mean, we didn't really mention how his his relationship with his wife is just in shambles. Right. You know, the fact that he went to New York 'cause he wants to get a job. He's gonna just leave really is no connection with his son. Like, you said, we're friends. Finally, he is so distant from his son. Well, he even says don't. Well, he's actually when he's talking to the counselor. Yeah. My wife deals with sun related things. Not even like money related thing. Just like anything my son, she deals with which is like damn, dude. Like, that's your kids. And that's the thing. Could he see so comfy? I think we're finally we're finally friends Jesus Christ. This is this is this is the state that he is in and his son has even for first time. He has that emotional connection was father. It is. So extreme based on negative influence has this moment where it's like, no. You are here. I'm gonna prove it to you because he's still in denial of it. You say it's extreme. I just think it's kind of this is just natural. Because this kid is so cut off from his mother by Murphy. He's getting he's in fights at school. He needs something. This is what he finally believes in. And he goes to these great lames to prove it, and yeah, it's awful. And what you just see them lay on the ground is like she's Christ. When we do here. It's amazing. I mean, I'm not saying I wasn't captivate. What's fun to that? Next. Step to the next youth. Ask maybe. Yeah. It's just jumped we're like, all right. We're kind of feeling out. He thinks it is. Oh, I got a gun. I've bloated. I'm shoot my dad. Like, I didn't think he was air yet with delusion. And it was terrifying. Because the kid give credit tour get credit Credit's due that kid has. No, you'll be fine. Don't be scared. That's a sign of you once. Psycho shit. It's fucked up. I mean, even says, I got a little mixed up. But like a gun at your dad like what the fuck and even the way Bruce was. Destabilize the situation. Trying to stabilize where he's like. All right. Yeah. I'll get shot I'll bounce and I will leave that is more terrifying than his dad dying apparent living. When Bruce was good actor. Oh, come on. Well, I can growl and be baldly already halfway there. That's the same. It's like in the I think the early two thousands of last time we saw Bruce wasn't actor like right here because kind of proves it where he's trying to be a stabilizing force. But he's going through so many so many emotional trials right now. God it's so sad to hear that. He's not the saving glass. No. You're not gonna get your dreams of sorry. That's what people do and comic fans. Do they have dreams, and you stop having dreams marvel hasn't let me down. God thing waiting for. There's gonna be a point where they do. And then it'd be like don't have dreams, and I'm gonna be sad. But but is not this day. But okay. So now, do you? Remember why Mr. glass was because he was injured jetted wheelchair-bound pretty brain dead jerking off to hint in the back of the common. In tattoo. Nasty ass Samuel Jackson. But. He's in the back. And he's just like, man. I lost it. I'm hurt. Again. I'm never gonna find my super. I'm not even sure the guy, but you know, he goes through the Congo shop after the card amount, and he finds a comic book century man, Sint century man, where the issue talks about. Oh, we gotta find the weakness for the superheroes. Every single superhero, we need to find a weakness. And so he goes, oh, how could I forget your weakness is water, which I think everyone's weaknesses water in the same way that. Done but at the same time. So he's honed in on this thing where it's like, look, I choke on water when I get too much. I drown you drown. That means. That's your one weakness. And with the idea of weakness it brings to the forefront. Once again that Bruce will still thinks he might be a superhero. David. It's a lashing. Obvious you'll bones. Don't break mine. That's clear your cells react to back to your viruses differently in mind. You don't get sick. I do for some reason you and I react the exact same. Wait what we are on the same curve just on. Civilians. The point of all this is we now know something we didn't. You have a weakness what it's like kill kryptonite. Hey, man our yard. Wasn't injured in that car accident? They've never been in July. That would be super convenient football player just realize a quarterback in taking all those hits and never being heard that'd be fucking dope. But that was the moment when he when he left that voice mail in the way, you said it I was like man, I know where this is going. Oh, yeah. We're on the run the same curve. Just opposite ends. I was like. Really? And then you actually do get some superhero moments where he's ripping fucking car doors off where you powers the entire time. Yeah. But I mean, you could oh S adrenaline, whatever. But you know, he was unharmed. Neither ben. Think of Princeton, dude, dude, are you her and he's like food nunnery leading. I'm not whatever. And so, you know, he starting to realize come to terms with that, of course. And it's like, okay. Well, now, you have superhero. And now you have now say super villain, and I was like. Okay. How it was going to manifest, but I knew that that was the case. I guess we'll get to eventually. Of course, there's a big twist at the end involved Samuel Jackson character. But I think at the time even when I first saw this when I was very young and couldn't catch all this stuff. Like, I didn't catch that of dial. Again, I don't think mainstream audiences did either I would say the majority of people did not realize that. But what I like about this particular is that you realize he could have had that whole career, but he gave it up because you know. Do things. Including through the football. Yes. So that's what he did. He's like, okay. I'm going to I'm going to go into hiding again. Because that's I can't reveal myself in this way. But I love this person. That's what I'm gonna do. Right which show beautiful beautiful here. It's a hero sacrifice. See I. Tonight who he is to protect someone. He loves right? Vice in some for me, I'll just put it here friend. I'll repeat it again at the end. I just I didn't like that whole the whole subplot of the marriage falling apart and stuff like that. I didn't city. Together. It was because I think the problem that movie is we we see the end of it. We didn't we didn't see those twelve years when they were together the breakdown, and then they have one day where it's like. Oh, yeah. Totally love each other. But it was like after he has that near death experience supposedly near death experience that she wants to continue the relationship with each other. I will agree with you. It's not a huge focus the Phil. But I still felt in certain scenes like when the kid tries to shoot him like that. And when he has such a disconnect with his wife at the hospital like that one moment where she kinda hugs him. And they hold hands with the kid brings their hands together is usually turns around they stop holding him. I think that's like, okay. I really liked that. Right. But I just for me. What do you have a story you need like that's why I don't like love stories thrown in to add stakes to add story. Like, I'm not saying that there wasn't a pay off. I'm not saying that it didn't fit. I'm just saying I didn't buy it. And that's not the that's a folk not the fault of the movie because there was everything for me to buy it. I guess so I think I think just the stoic nature. Bruce Willis, like, how could you love somebody who's this fucking boring? Like, there's really no deviation from the fact that he's just roll kind of monotone guy that really well. I know it's on purpose. But you never get an inclination that they should love each other that he even loves her other than he didn't sleep with anybody else. Even though he tried doing. So at the beginning feel bad about it. Does he feels bad everyone fucking die feels bad about? I mean flirting with woman, and he feels bad about that. But not in flirting with a girl, generally. But anyway, yeah, besides that he was lying. He's a superhero. And he's always known. And so the first thing that Mr. glass does he goes, you know, what your superhero go around touch some people? And so he goes into the middle of the train station where the hell yet. And he has all these super extra senses in this every person touches apparently a high criminal because that lady domain name is a racist guy that breaks a bottle of black woman head. I'm like God. That's awful. And then we gotta fuck in Gillette commercial where the guys like, hey, girl, you sleep in close the door and does awful awful things. And like those are the three people in that one spot that he just like, oh shit Steeler. Race race. Hey racist. Racist hate hate crime brave air and a rapist like this is awful. But again while about this scene is by the way, the score. They have this one is all playing beautiful has his arms outstretched. I it just how it's shot is amazing film weird Shaath and you get some beautiful shots. Right. He can't respond to all those things just like superman because he sees all the suffering. I have to just you got to go for this one thing, which I know I can't help these people the most chooses that moment where you just see right there where you can actually orange. He can actually do, you know, something about it. Because that dude got shot in the head is in the middle of his home adequate ever have you. And so that's when you know when you get the realization of Cam going full superhero, I'm going daredevil, even daredevil he and hear all the cries. But he's like, okay. Let me focus on the one. I can work on. But the funny thing is like all right. I'll say this. If he touched you, what would he see the worst crime you've committed I know. I know you're not a bad person. I'm not a bad. I I'll tell you mine in the second told on air. But was like if you touched the you bumped into you, what crime, would you see you commit? You put me on the spot here. Probably weird sex stuff. A crime. A crime myself. Yeah. Man. I love a sad loan. Never you've never committed a crime. You don't want to be Okinawan. He see I think this is pretty bad. I went to like an open house with my parents one time as I was very young. Okay. So I was a little so go ahead. I was a sociopath. And I actually there was some change on this person's like table. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Took it. I took it and my mom actually do that. And she was so mad at me. And yeah, I that was I never I stole something. Right. And I put it back. I felt so terrible. So even commit the crime. So you didn't Yankee. It was in the said anything, you know. My sister was a little kid. She's take the tip. The my parents left really forgot horrible. She got. She was like you forgot this money. You left the money here and like put shit back. I didn't know any better. See I've told the story before. Is this a straight of crime? But but it's Larry because I was shut up starving. Yeah. So that's fine. I would go to our local grocery store out in Santa Barbara leader still there. I wonder if there anyway what I would do is. I would get the general so's chicken. They have the help yourself. Trae the lamp whatever, and I would get a pound of it. And I would wait. And I'd I'd to get the sticker. Whatever have you. And then I would go through the store need all the fucking chicken and then peel off the sticker and that way at the counter on the self-checkout so out eat wings Jesus because I couldn't afford food. Ladan situation. But. I don't buy that just them chicken. So I would like leave a couple of like bone in wings at the bottom. So I'd like to bucks for a pound of chicken, eight bucks. Whatever have you. And I was just like delicious, I spent so much. So that's what Bruce Willis would see that is not hate crimes, not sex crimes. But chicken Crump, delicious cry for avidly, not not doing that. Let's see Chad. As things Dan, saying, your sister is horrible. She was like four show everybody damn Chris think I'm sorry. Semi kid. Kick. It kick a kid. I've tr- did. I trip kid deserve a kid running around. Did I do it? I'm wondering. Brokos boats. No, I would have done that. That's thing super villa in that moment that is an awful thing. If I have to think about whether or not I have trip the child, and the Oris why would do it is is running around causing a ruckus, and he got close to my feet. I would I would stick motel. Okay. I've definitely I've done something that might be bad wanna give more. Okay. Okay. This is I mean, it's so long ago. This doesn't matter. So I was buoyed by this one kid one time. This is like fourth grade. I think or something it doesn't entry school. So this point he's probably. Has some of his fingers while you're talking I'm gonna go check because they're all calling thing. So we had this major project in fourth grade do to do this thing a week after what it was to design his whole folder, whatever it was like a special thing. It was like math English. Maybe whatever subject, and we handed folders in the teacher. And I know is that the end of the day, she let the Molin her desk this kid who bullied me all the time. He was a piece of shit awful human being really I took his folder ripped it all up put outside the dumpster. And. At so. So the whole thing happen where he's like, I think is parents were called in like he didn't do his work. He was like he didn't do as work. And so yeah, I did that. Oh, my kind kinda bad. I mean that is a long time ago wouldn't be I realize it's bad. Now. I hate that. I hated that kid time pretty out of Duns jurisdiction like do. That's awful. And and you still tickets from children. Fuck you nine. Never know hating children ceiling tickets to separate things. I've never still tickets from children still tickets. I will hate children, but I'll never do both at the same time. Don't fucking align. Fucking line. I'm not still tickets from children their school projects. The school projects tear that shit up. I'm see I've never done any school sabotage. That's that's the best. God. So sad is here. It's cold because that's like effort. This man. I saw. So I was Mr. goddamn glass psychopath. You're talking about yourself. Imitates are mad. So what I'm saying is that you would have been in this situation. If you want your dad was a superhero. I mean, I'm not gonna bring that up. Let's say you're dad didn't like you like all the comic books and not like a football. Your superhero shoot soon believing. I thought he was a superhero. Yeah. Exactly awful awful child you. But anyway, so he find out that I still nuggets, and and that said in manifest him going like, well, you know, what I have to stop this crime. I have to stop the injustice in the world. And so he actually does his due diligence and tracks down. I don't even know how he does it if you only gets vicious at the inside, but he's able to track down where this this crime is happening. It has become. Tell me something David. When you woke up this morning was still there. The sadness. You know, what the scariest thing is to not place in this world? Cannot know why? So many sack. Just fine. Credit? Mistake. It all makes sense. Comic. You know, how you can tell the building's going to. He's still exact opposite the hero and most friends like you. No. The. Mr plants. What? Oh, we never saw them again that was the only movie ever ever. I'm till tomorrow. And then Bruce Willis gets to be a robot. But no, I mean, so here's the thing kind of to wrap up the review a lot of stuff that you just show. Right. So first and foremost, right? So he he discovers, you know. All right. So he's going to be a superhero discovers where he's that whatever. And he goes in and the guy, you know, let's go the kids. Let's kid free. Whatever have you and they take off. But he finds husband dead wife pretty much about to die or beaten. Yeah. First problem. Okay. So the janitor guy or whatever have you the guy in the jumpsuit? He's, you know, clearly, cruel. He's he's killed the guy whatever he's a murder. So he's like all right. I'm gonna push him off the balcony on top of the pool. Not even in the pool on top of the pool d weakness, then he's like, all right, cool. Drink beer and spit on her like you finish the job. Wouldn't you? Make sure that guy is dead because that guy just saw you commit those crimes. Like, wouldn't you want to make sure that I was dead? Well, I mean with this kind of guy we don't know what his. Mode modes of upper on you know. I mean, he left that dead body in the basement over the adequate wherever not going anywhere. Bobby's in that water right now, he's not going anywhere. He's drowning got he got caught in that cover for which by the way, that's always terrified that is pretty. Oh shit. You're underwater. So he's and he's he's dead. So no, I mean, you you in this is going to go with it. You're not wrong. Maybe guys surely psychopath. Yeah. He's not that smart. He's smart enough to know how to kill people. I guess and then Secondly, kind of what the twist right? Okay. So the kids are a superhero them what we discover we've after might be good to know. Is that in glass that comes back and there there's an actor. That's cool barely helps his dad superhero. So it's like he's Robin which is cool sons on now, here's the here's the part where I'm like man, another one that's convenience things. So it's shows mister glass committing all these acts of terrorism says one in Mexico as a couple of other ones in different parts of the world. Right. Yeah. But isn't a kind of convenient that the superhero would be in the same town. He's in Philadelphia in just kind of like, peer luck happenstance type of thing. I mean, I mean. Try to these things all over the world and the one that land guy down the street. Like, that's what counts man, they tend to be convenient. I guess that's the thing. It's like the as he says like, you know, typically the hero and the villain were lifelong friends and they've known each other for a while. Weird guy that his mind their friends. I think at the end they're just before the revelation considers Elijah friend I had and so on that's why when his final reaction to it's like chice Christ. Like the one thing that he established that brought him out of that made him whole unbreakable. Finally was thing that also broke him again. Yeah. Which again is so tragic I love that. So yeah. I mean, is it convenient shirt, but it still works incredibly well. And the other thing also bring up to that moment when the sun realize when the father pushes the papers, like I'm the hero in the kid starts crying. I think it's such a beautiful moment. You know, we don't really see that many super. We don't really see like a father son dynamic Ciro movies, and that kind of way again, that's what makes it stand out. So unique to me. So I love all this entire thing. When fights the Orangemen with all to the sun, and then on the reveal of Elijah, it's even though you can see it now. It's like, wow, this is so obvious it still works. Yeah. At that point. I was like up. Here comes. I didn't know exactly what he did buy new. You had you had the knowledge that you know, Mr. the villain in glass. I really didn't. Okay. I said Mr. glass was a character. Just the same way. I didn't know that Bruce Willis was unbreakable. The movie was about him. I didn't know all I knew that. He was fragile. That's I didn't know you go. I didn't know that. He was a mastermind I didn't know that part of him underestimate the master. But even then, but I told you the time he said, that's your kryptonite. That's when I know that was the moment the same thing same thing. But different. Yeah. So that's when I knew I was the whole movie thing in the whole yelling back in the day. People did not realize that rose Tam seem any super films. Right. But you know, what I'm gonna let you start with the review. You know, what I watch this movie? Again, it really just made me appreciate everything. Again. It's still ahead of its time. It's total deconstruction superhero tale. The performances are fantastic. I mean Jackson's craters the villain. This is probably one of the last time Bruce will actually gave a shit. In a role. Colleague. He is how broken he is. You know, he took this material. Seriously. I think because of his relationship with 'em night on the six cents. How many this my all it? So it was so refreshing to see BRUCE'S actual Carrigan. Yeah. I like a lot of supporting cast members to I think that kid is really great in the ROY. I think with his father's really good now in some criticisms. I think some of the camera works a little wonky. But for the most part that doesn't happen too often list for the wife is I think explore just enough. It's more of a background thing thinking at his character. But overall, I still think brilliant, it's probably my favorite movies, which there's only two two. This one and six, okay. Which again, I think is one of the few coast poor films. Actually, like, I do not like movies really really boring that one this is just really creepy ineffective in PG thirteen and if great performances, so this is the same thing. No, I love this movie in the more. I think about I was thinking I'm going to a high full price. But as looking all these scenes talking about this issue appreciation for the complex genre. This is better than sex, man. Yeah. That feeling. You're I liked it. It made me cry. It. Maybe maybe water has his hands out like that touching people realizing that he can't go after he has to go after this one thing and he's upset about it. But he knows like least save one save one. He says. But so yeah. It's not having bream. I will kill them. But I'm I'm your mister Glenn glass God or mister Tibbs. I'm not sure all Mista tips. I don't even know what that is awful. But you know, what this review for me? Yes. I don't know really kitty no to say about Mr. tips thing for my review, though, one thing after MIR in regards to everybody's criticism, including yours is that this is a movie that I feel really head of its time. I mean, you really have to think hard about the state of superhero movies that would end up coming after this, actually, not even more. So after this because we have so many. But before this we mentioned top of the show. What was it the batmans? Tim Burton batmans nineties bands. Belaid the superman move into the seventies eighties. The crow steel X men being made probably at the same time as this. Those are all different variants of silliest some point at some point. It takes a property that you kind of know. From the comic book pages and makes them and takes them seriously to certain extent last them, and it lasted points about the, you know, the spandex type jokes that they make but here with really no other property or phantom to go off of it's almost refreshing to see something original like this. This is one of those times we're going back and watching a movie that establishes certain elements or elements or tropes of you will is actually better than seeing the derivatives of. Yes, where the derivatives have something that they have to connect with iron, man. Can't be this because man has to connect to ironman actual cartoon. It's real here. This movie has no loyalties to tie to able to make its own story table, tell the in a way that is engaging in fun. I think that it is one of those rare exceptions. I tend to catch myself on this show seeing movies that go. Oh, yeah. We're going to do something serious. But you know, or not. I'm sorry mixing my points up. We're going to do something that you've seen before. But at a twist to it or make it better or do something like that. And this is one of those instances where it's not necessarily. It's not better. But it's so much more different than I'm used to sing. When I have to see something like. Ironman or or captain America where it's like fucking period piece of something. This is none of those things. This is something that is in its own world it it's own thing. And that's where it stays. And now you have the trilogy where it's split and and glass, but that's now, that's that's what they made now because they have to make the money. This did a need to make the money. This was a young guy a young director. That was hungry has an idea. Dida those passionate about this and made something that was really good. The only real downside to this in my opinion is the ending is pretty telegraphed for me. And at times, I just quite simply wasn't invested in the whole failing marriage. So plot there's reason for it. There's payoffs within it. But it just wasn't my Cup of tea, and I can't blame the movie for that. That's just me other than that. This is a you sold me a little higher, but it's still full price. Other gonna give it a load right price. That's gonna go full price. But you kind of brought it up for me just explanation. I mean back in the day when I was very didn't. Appreciate didn't like this movie. Oh, it wasn't until years later. Like oh shit. Wow. This is this is actually I had to be more mature be smarter to really understand. What was doing? It's like people that may be liking this at first. But I think with with multiple viewings, you get more preciado, right? And I've always seen this the two-time. Yeah. So, but you know, what that's for their views. So go do all the things I told you at the top of the video and we'll see next week. We don't have anything plan next week. Because nothing's coming out but February's coming and we'll have some things for that. So go ahead and say, but everybody say about everybody everybody everybody is about everybody by. And we're back. Oh, right. But that's it. Second Bruce Willis fuck learn to act or he was active seats because he didn't do it again. Do it again. Anything's gonna bring Bruce was coming back now. He's gone. He's carrying more. He's gone forever. Groping all these people. He can't touching. He's catching Katie. The roping touching. He bet lady right there. She's a hand evil to handle grab them by hashtag. No, he's groper. But I mean. We're not gonna get into beautiful seem dirty that wants to pill joke about the superhero. Anyway, we didn't lose a show. Good. Good. Good this. And we didn't lose a show, but are going to get out of here before. So. Well, thank you everybody watching. Let's go ahead and see what the chat thought everyone's looks to be pretty happy. Movie. I don't know. That is Bruce with monkeys. Twelve monkeys not seen that movie. Right. But yeah, convenience is a key element of drama fiction. Just down the street. What a coincidence. Anyway, no twists here tonight. I get out of here. So one of think that shed attend to joining us. Thank everybody joining us here, Jillian Connor Felix guys after the abandoned us, and that's it for the show next week. Guess I don't know poll maybe poll Bill put up a poll. We have to that. I think is the shit. Well, big coming toys Toy Story like movie, I think is in two weeks after next week. So. Pull up good and check the group children of the toast. We'll put it somewhere where you guys gonna excess access, but you know, what I'm gonna leave on Yuma. The focus. Fucking shit steak mousketeers looking for. Mother fuckers. Motherfucker buddy time to get out of you. So if you're bad mother fuck out there, please big contact with us on our way out and the way you can do that motherfucker is by hitting up k cool. Man's the footage. Condit's Casey, M, A N mother fucking Z chino dot com. Pretty questions come advice. If you wanna come onto the city too late Taffer ago Instagram at double underscore, toasted follows tax gives your fan or we need to fan are now feature you myself Facebook, search double toast, you'll find all sorts of things and all the things you could ever possibly want on that Facebook. But in the meantime, you critique time. DT on Facebook, the Mexicans on all other forms of social media at me, and I make all your wildest dreams. Come true. Chris we're gonna find me on Twitter after I Jame to which Mr. ribbons seven content classic last. No back to the. Studio. Come on down. Fake everybody watch. Thank you for joining us next week. We'll see next time. But that's it. Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening whenever you're listening to this. Or watching this wait, we have some eighteen seconds left. What? Take time to make a song say, hey, hey, hope see next time goodbye and more. Botch. This goodbye and. The fucker.