20 Episode results for "Mark it"

Interpretable One Shot Learning

Data Skeptic

30:39 min | 9 months ago

Interpretable One Shot Learning

"Probably the first thing anybody did when they set out to embark on the first natural language processing tasks was to load some document into memory. Some plain text file and then split it into individual words. Or as I should call them tokens as pretty simple programmatic. It's mostly just split the string on spaces a little bit more tricky to Dan Punctuation correctly popular words will appear many times in. That's great for doing statistics. Asking questions like how often do two words appear in the same sentence or whereas the TANF algorithm would help us. What words in this document seem the most important that they're frequent enough within the documents but they don't appear in every document went though is going to be frequent we don't want that microprocessor will not be in every document? Might Get username is my first and last name. CONCATENATION is my get hub username. I'm going to be in your Corpus. Probably not so new words or rare words. These are problematic if you have only a single instance of a token or zero instances. It's a new word. Where'd you haven't seen before? There's not much your typical statistical techniques can do when you have sparser data like that or more so events. You've never observed Canoe Tokens yet. The strange thing is as human beings. We're actually pretty good at adapting to the presence of new words or I could pick a word random. Let's say squirrel and start telling you all about it but use my nonsense word instead of the proper word Squirrel. You would quickly figure out most likely what I was actually referring referring to and even if you don't get exactly right you inference a lot about what that word means based on context and that's of course some of the promise of allow. The advances is that have come recently in natural language processing that these that these word embedding and sentenced level embedding. They're able to draw in some of that context and that's very true but they also do it on a sort of a token kind of basis so one technique some listeners might know is character level embedding when a new word is invented. Let's say computer cuter. Soroush all of you have some sense of what a computer source is. The compute prefix in the Sorus. Post fix carry a lot of information with them and that's not even the context text. That's just the construction of the word so these character level and beddings have gotten good at solving aspect of the problem. Well let's remember that these imbedding vectors. They're pretty pretty much black boxes. There numeric representations that you would be hard pressed to explain in any interpreted away you can visualize them a little bit and things like that for sure but for the most part. No if you're GONNA work with embedding 's you're doing that to increase accuracy not to increase interpret ability in here in highlights and interesting aspect of yet. Another reason why I think model interpret ability is important when you want your model to give you more than just the right answer you want to give you some Meta data or something. It's able to inference some explanation. Perhaps some other details about what exactly this computer Soroush might be capable. I Love Cape. Welcome to data skeptic interpret ability. PODCAST previously Z.. Focused on natural language processing. Now we're going to dabble in the interpret ability of natural language processing this week on the show. I've invited back returning guests sue way in. In addition to the work we discussed last year authorship attribution today we're going to get into something pull not entirely unrelated but a brand new topic sues also co author on a paper call distributional modeling on a diet. One shot word learning from text own. It's a neat paper. That nominally delivers on the promises. Made in the title but also gives us so you get insight into an especially interpretive always off all that right after the break thanks to this week sponsor the twenty twenty Gartner Data and analytics summit in Grapevine Texas March Twenty third through twenty six. Now is the time I'm to act. You can save three hundred and fifty dollars with my early bird code those of you traveling on the company dime keep in mind that your boss may have a budget for events and travel in this sort of thing and if he your she doesn't use that up they might lose it. The agenda has gone up on the web to keynotes the caught. My eye were mcmullan speaking on creating a culture that is ready for AI. In Dr. Hannah fry who I love. She's on more or less all the time. I read one of her books. She's great professor mathematician author. That's just the tip of the iceberg across the eight eight tracks they're offering visit gartner dot com slash. US Slash data. That's Gartner G. A. R. T. N. E. R. dot com slash. US Slash data. They're into the discount code all caps no spaces data skeptic. Hello my name is way I'm currently a PhD student at the University of Texas. At Austin. I'm graduating in a couple months. Hopefully I will be joining Google. Willie I July this year. What's the nature of some of your work there? Do you have a sense of the kind of projects or at least areas of research focusing on I feel like all of the Mattie Jimmy. Mike Beach started out with something at least something different now which is a front allows writing my dissertation we dissertation going to be about. I've been looking at semantics in general I started out with lexical semantics because that was shared interest in between my advisory so this paper is from that era of of my PhD SEMANTICS or trying to make models that are interpreted so that was the one thing I was interested in and I also did it. Coherence modeling if you are generating story was reaching language model at say You tune in on some style agenda story. How do you make a coherent stories? Such sat on the discourse level. The story's interesting makes sense right other participants in the events together. Nicely the Like subject that that I also did a little bit of computer vision navigation in May of the world is not like in the United States are not used to being given instructions flight after two under feeds left before preferred to have Lamar. We face navigation. So you see nasty. Turn lack of that sort of thing that was a team biogas to integrate models capacity to see this to have these were input and be able to give landmark based instructions in real time. Well it's exciting stuff paper. I'd ask you to talk about is titled Distributional modeling on a Diet. One shot learning from text. Only while I think that's a great title that will be lever explanatory to a lot of listeners. Maybe going to break it. Down highlight a couple of those terms. For example. Do you have an intuitive notion or definition of what is one shot learning in this particular context. We're trying to convey the idea of when you see a new word or phrase you've never seen before a human agent is able to Guess what properties in my half just by looking at it in one sentence that's sort of one exposure to that context. I have this example might paper so we found suit Henry Watkin mark sleeping behind the tree. The walking is a made up word which is technically English. Never seen before so after seeing Wants Apple what can you say about what it is. I can think of a lot of stuff. It's an animal I might even speculate. It's a mammal. It's quite a bit from your sentence. Actually that's the question we're interested in answering. How come all those things you might say if I ask you is it made of is made of water you might stay no have have you noticed an animal? Rates quests and then the fact that it's a distributional modeling and also on a Diet Phyllis what's distributed about. And what are we. We reducing with the Diet property on a diet women's that we only have a small amount of data. We are interested in finding out if this is all you got. How much can you get out of it efficiently? So that's what a distribution model on dying man and a distribution model. So I mentioned a whole sentences ago we were trying to learn properties of the saints and add. That's a property has four laxed as a property not made of metal for example is a property. Let's let's say that these are all properties. These are the things you don't see an unstructured data so it's sort of going back to the gracious maximum of formation people. Avoid to state eight the obvious we believe using distributional parents context outwards call kate together in unstructured Corpus. It's awful corroborate that information take advantage of that distributional power to leverage the minimum amount of information. We actually I think some of the use cases are going to be fairly obvious. But maybe it's taking moment asking about them with a model like this or tools like this. What are some either industry or academic applications that someone might put this to work with? It started out as purely an academic interest. So we're learning. These were representations using newer networks states right Reach information very effective representation's you learn from birds who can actualize using large retrain language model least effective but there are questions since these models cannot answer cognitively plausible representation. Let's say for concert like a dog Strike a rounded dimensional vector vector Earth to say that Dog Why so. His it serves close to these other entities they form a cluster in semantic expes distributional manner at a famous quote. Now I I that he seven that means the word is looking at company right. You can say that. But if you're thinking about concept like a cowboy a comment of category there are a lot of strange categories in a world where not describing. I don't know if you know this by Jordan's lake off. UC Berkeley so he wrote this book in Nineteen Eighty. Seven women. Fire endangers thinks is a weird title right Women Fire and dangerous. Things are in the same category in this Australian indigenous language for durable remark linguistically as a category. When you say these words you gotTa pull this a specific prefix in front of all or something like that? I didn't define those categories what I was interested in was to characterize the semantics space. I prefer to look at it. As a sort of multidimensional space where each dimension mentioned is meaningful so Peter Garden Force. The Swedish philosopher area is quite influential in the cognitive semantics. Who's using this idea? What is is a cognitive semantics space? Lock like what should it look like. It should be something like an ordinary tasks is so this is a space where her all the categories are convex cells. Where you have your instances in there whenever learn you? Contact all instances in the cell. We'll adjust themselves the distribution within the cell changes. A little at tell you a witch. Instances are more typical so that explains a a lot of observations in psychology Famous example is robin is a good example of earth better than paying if you're semantics faces something something like that have interpreted dimensions and you have these sort of reasonable way to characterize it better yet. You have ballistic behind it to tell you to mall. Aw semantics properly that will be an interesting route to go an immediate downstream application. Sort of most immediate thing. You can you think of is when you ask them all do something unless you're translating from one language to a different language and these two languages let's say that they are technically very destined. The speakers of these languages structure their cognition very differently while this sort of widely evidence in crossing literature when the model Max one linguistic wisc structure one structure in different language. What's models doing how you find out? The MODEL was uninterruptible dimensions. If the measures are very interesting interesting how people see the world A different English is my second language right processes learn English. I found sort of learn many concepts. That don't existing Chinese or sort flight. One concept in English covers multiple Chinese this sort of seen cognitive phenomenon I think having the most basic structures like words it's having a nation gives us insight. I'm curious to hear a little bit about the data sets used in training. I know you'd mentioned that this is Diet. Orien- WE WANNA see how much information information we can get with the small data set but how restricted you make your learning. Oh so we had a set of what they call feature. Moore's these are words or concepts concepts associated with human written property labels just call properties some sort of labels this concept we have five hundred forty one. The original data set or really beloved made an upgrade to the data set. Originally all the properties were binary right either have it or not and now there are pro listrik in the update version. which is one? We used quantitative mccray. The original data was called Creek. Now it's quantitative mccray so adult would have off one hundred percent chance to be animal. Probably seventy five percent chance to have four legs because of audible fortunate events so you have these hoodies associated with these concepts. That was the data that we worked with so this is a representative of always thought of as Human Consents Knowledge College with respect to Lexical semantics ran this kind of thing don't see and I'll structured corpus as separately. We have a distributional orbis which is a medium sized by the standard then British national office which is our distributional Corpus where we wanted to take advantage of distributional patterns. Isn't there a data to propagate information stored in the five hundred thirty two concepts which labeled those are the two data sets that we use and and then in terms of building out your model. Are there any sort of feature engineering techniques or token ization steps that you implement before really getting the mls pieces going nothing special special in particular so the typical thing you would imagine bryce anyway stop words and you know nothing particular in their makes sense. Yeah it's interesting more one more. That's been the trend. I found as new techniques and especially more and more compute has been available for NLP problems that seems like a lot of these. Maybe we'll call them older types of feature engineering techniques become less important as the corporate have grown but even in your case sounds like they weren't a critical part in the step which is interesting. Could you talk a little bit about the methodology and disingenuous Start from those data sets to come up with your model so before I wanted to give a sketch of the idea. The questions how you cope with that inferences walk walk. Mark It reiterates for the convenience of the reader were looking at the sentence we found it Q.. Harry walking up sneaking around the tree as a human being. You guessed that one Piedmont which is made up were now Ford is an animal you mammo in Orlando and all that sort of thing we call properties. How do you come up with that inference? How do that so the idea was semantics? That universe concerts. Let's call it. It has a probabilistic structure behind it. So when you see a new concept with partially observable Oh properties. Let's say that if innocence we see that Co located with hairy huge. So these contexts. Give you some information about some of his properties. He's a you don't have a lot. Using the probabilistic structure in the semantic universe. You want to find in for for the contract. That's most likely correct generated. This instance you can imagine that. There's a latent variable imaginary universe that's associated with the Cossack that listening distribution some sort of model generated. This instance which now you see is an animal has forelegs that sort of thing. What is involved in? This process are two who steps. First of all in Tex- only inference setting. You only see the sentence right. You don't have embody learning you. Don't have the privilege you don't actually see properties of the things you're learning the partially observable properties from the conflicts. And after that you want to map it to some reference in in your cognitive space were not claiming to make strong assumptions. But this is sort of how the idea came about. You're imagining your McIntyre who essential reference which by virtue of having seen these properties you're able to infer for other properties exam with an animal. What would an animal half trolley? It lives probably Probably not made of now. That's the high level idea. One of the MODEL was Iraq probabilistic model which Asia has again Genitive story is as follows so a cossack is a probabilistic distribution over a set of late variables in talk modeling Are Catch us. You can think of these as different perspectives from which you look at contract from. Each topic is associated associated with two distributions. One is over. Properties is an animal as relax. These and other is over linguistic visit context in which it can appear on example. We saw a wonky among is likely to get a noun the case with words Harry Cute right the context so you have to distributions one over property one of a convex new generate. An instance of a concept. Let's say adopt your I decide on a perspective from which you look at this instance and then you draw some properties for it and draw some context in which it can appear and you write it down so that's the incense since the concept the dog. We observed I'm assuming most of the listeners. At least have some general understanding of what the topic model is to from observed they appoints you infer back to the parameters of the this model basically the post over the tremors wanted to understand underlying in for for the underlying distributions over properties season over-complex. The we have general to model. It looks like that the reason we have to distributions properties in context. Is We want to link them together based on hypotheses would make about this row semantics space so first hypothesis in the distributional saying knowing the CO occurrence pattern of Connex ax is helpful. If something is edible if you ate something that thing is probably with the occurrence of contact similarity among concepts knowing knowing that is useful. The other officers is knowing the poker's pattern frosties is helped. You know that I guess is highly likely that this thing is uh than what are some likely properties that co occur without property so we have these two policies the model that want to have joined distribution of contacts ax. And Wes you have joined the fusion and you observe contracts you'll be able to infer properties that's what the mall us. I'm wondering if you had any chance to look at how your approach would perform with ambiguity for example if I were to simplify your earlier example and say we found owned acute Amok and it had three legs. Is it a stool or is it an injured animal. I Dunno what sort of a behavior and inference can be under that means right people into reading Asian techniques with newer networks with single purpose of introducing all certainty into the equation is that if you give the deterministic up the prediction. You are predicting distribution of. Will you see something that has property that could be confusing right Relaxed of your soul and it could be a novel to do your uncertainty there. Because we don't know the ground truth the right answers probably assigning some probably one as unprofitable you to the other thing. The course of observing more contacts walk mouth appears. Ball's GonNa be better at in one of the things that really stuck out for me about your paper. APOR was the Beijing components in how that really gave you this level of interpret ability we were referring to earlier. Could you compare and contrast that with what someone would get in a more black box model so recent paper by leave from. US Army A look at the same problem. The mapping between distributional reputation and property reputation right previous work we compared to in our paper was hurt alive he all. Sr Model Partially Square. Regression mapping for distributional say's to is warning bags as you know to a property factors this recent paper upgrade that too. You're not works folks. You can see predictive. Performance is better there and generally true data model wooden outperform at this permitted model does have been empirically. Yeah absolutely I think the ability to then do something general to obviously it depends on your use case right if this is just some web APP or whatever maybe just goes for the highest accuracy but in a more general setting to me the ability to get back that distribution and query it. Obviously a lot of people might just want the Arc Max value. What do you think is the most likely the context of property but there are a lot of I think interesting decision theoretic ways to go with it where you're working under uncertainty and not that many NLP models have that property with at? It's something you guys set out to do. Just came naturally with the fact that you were going to adopt some Beijing approaches our priorities internally and a proper way mall semantics explicitly inspired by garden this idea of conceptual space so of course we learned. We found evidence in the literature where people try to make predictions nations better macking from one space to distributional spaces property space accurately. Why learn from that was there's a learnable macking between these two spaces so what I wanted to know was connects to give up as evidence that is legitimate for us to use distributional structure to propagate our property knowledge? Because because there's a learnable Between these two we weren't using it voice. Unsafe were like that was a convenient way. That was more conceptually easy way for us to Interpol the problem. Is there anything interesting to be said for how you computed the model. I know sometimes with Beijing and modeling in particular if you have a nice conjugate. Prior everything works out computational nationally but other times there's a lot of simulations and stuff to run. How difficult was it to generate your mile? We have these two policies coke of contexts and go cursive prompt. These these these should be useful for Auditees we constructed outs to test the hypothesis. We started out with two baselines. These baselines implement the model in a way that none of these hypotheses are simple rights. We don't make use of cocoa between a context and between properties are we ended. This was as follows a one examples. We were imagining a concept as a information giver in the form of a newly factor. You have these properties is. Let's say we have two hundred properties. Each property corresponds to a cell in a sector and it is probable in your context. Give you that factor from in which you could infer. Whatever appears in the context of this work should have these in these providence? If you see by selection preference what will be a concept that selected by eat based on fact that what can eaten has these properties. We only look at this particular context and don't make any connection between e end cloak. All the olive words justice context did was malarial manual label. Sometimes when you see a contact that is known US account based approach the update will probability or property. Actor if you see let's say cats by label we know cat is an animal so we at one to the property animal has. That's at one to four. Lets you take this kind of based approach to update as factor for this particular concept after the update we compute an expectation affect martyr. You're turning distribution. Which is conflict prior early right? If you've seen this animal a ninety nine out often times it's ninety nine percent the In that approach we don't look at connections between on tax. That's how he around these and second Akra bottle is where we implemented implemented both office where model joined distribution between contexts and properties so Join this version. Of course everything is connected in the model for implementing both policies in this by model model. which is the one I described before so this basically links everything together right implementing both officers and the third type of models we did was at outlays which had offices is important? Or how much do they contribute if you were tomorrow. The hookers among context. How much performance games you get out? If you only model the focus on properties a changing get out of. It's a standard practice. What we got out of that batch of model was these confirmed that taking advantage of these jokers patterns as large performance? Difference between those and also tested different types of context dependencies having context and properties both are useful. Last thing we learned out of that was there was this small data set called animal which is similar to quantitative mccray a feature long so mccray. You have incomplete. Let's say that sometimes people don't label everything you just couldn't think of like for example Portas was labelled as having four lax. It through legal work was huge and these authors are loft is a wonderfully creative Animal which is that seventy me too L. Concept for which they designed fifty four dimension based properties testing in a situation complete information can models do better so we ran on that data set to basically the same performance ranking was observed in this experiment on animal data set. We're able to get the average precision of this model to as high as point A.. You on adult Denver given that this isn't some precision thing is language Detroit and we're dealing with a small core. That's a very nice result. I would say this project we did have a few points was using information formation Human it is necessary because people don't see everything in tax rate. You have the sort of incomplete information. That's one thing. The other thing is learning from tax. Only it's nine Weidler. You're missing out on a lot missing these different channels argue that apple necessary and having the information there's a interpret way to learn where banks that is from my perspective. More are interesting than something like wherever there are things you can learn for example if you have complete some Angie's in their white at can you not inferred Carr's relaxed with it's GonNa be hard and the other thing is in my work on narrative. Here's what I found was the model. I was using judy t to tell stories. So so we have this wage condition the content control the contents of the story. Let's say that once made the story. Sad wanted half different courses events happening putting them all to tell stories. One mistake I see models make over and over again Louis. Commonsense knowledge input. Was this in one story. Remember was the person John Hates. This woman shaves so much. He did a lot of things to express his hate of Shea and then the last sentence was John was furious and they her for years. So what's wrong with that. Like what's the problem in there. I feel like for all the participants in the story. If you know the properties of these Entities and you know the product of these events is going to be way easier for us to characterize the concept of coherence but currently we cannot have the cropped tax in some way the burden to classify method only to do it. But we don't know how does it and still make some mistakes and recently people found that Berta is Biz Birdie birdie making communist influences but was you know why what we would argue if you on a certain level of words if you could make things. More insurable is gonNA cascade how skating to more interoperability in downstream applications. Like at one point we wanted to make the other thing is wanted disclaimer. That we don't want to say that at this absolutely cognitively correct because there are cases we don't always special it crossing Example gives you at the beginning of this interview was lay offs Women Fire Danger Saints Fall into the same category. These are the things he calls. Radio categories for things are connected by arbitrary means for example. Woman is also in the same category. Was Sung at sunscreen. So how are they connected. Women by religion was linked to song and in San you can get somber if you get somber. You need sunscreen. Elizabeth for connections also form categories. We aren't able to learn those still trying to figure that one out well to wind up working people follow you online. I have a personal website which you can include it in the show notes and for everybody. Yes who thank you so much coming on and sharing your work biting me. Thanks for listening. To data skeptic our guest today with sue way check out his homepage at Sue Wang compiling dot com Lincoln the show notes. Our theme song is number five by big D and the kids table. Claudia Armbruster is our our associate producer. Vanessa our guest coordinator. I've been your host Kyle Polish. Thanks for listening

United States mccray Harry Apple Mark It Beijing Sorus San you Gartner Google Austin Henry Watkin Gartner G. A. R. T. N. E. University of Texas Diet Phyllis
Why you're not a morning person: Podcast 403

The WIRED Podcast

42:00 min | 1 year ago

Why you're not a morning person: Podcast 403

"Coming up today. Apple and Facebook square off. We learn how to train a dragon and find out while you'll never be a morning person. You're listening to episode four hundred three at the Y K podcast. You're essential weekly catch up on all the big stories in tech, science and business. I'm your host James and joining me map urges present. Matt Reynolds and Vicky Turk. I am hit you. This was the week when it emerged that friends was still the most popular TV program in the UK amongst five to sixteen year olds quite today's you relate to a TV show where people socialize without idly. Pouring the phones during every conversation remains unclear. This is also the week when the U K government published a report on the effects of screen time and social media on young people related thing there James one of the main suggestions was social media companies should be obligated to share data with external researchers. So they can run high quality studies on the impact of such. And it was also the week when the US government charge way. And it's chief financial officer Mangwazu, we stealing trade secrets and breaking trade sanctions against Iran in dramatically of the ongo. Drowsy facing the Chinese telecoms giant. And finally, this was the week when Nintendo announced the Mario Kart toll smartphone app will be delayed until this summer. It was originally planned to be released in March. It's absolutely devastating blow to my plans for twenty nineteen. You've already got Nintendo. Switch play on more. Mario Kart equals more fun. What did you learn this week my budget this week? I learned what cold welding is. Details. You told to try harder with your. With this definitely didn't Dougal space fax. But in space affectively, if you have two types of the same metal touch them together they will merge into one which is called cold, welding, and it happens in space because there's no oxygen to oxidizing. The metal was giving them an coating with the person who wrote in criticizing Matt's lack of effort on Pocos facts, please rate that fact that good or was that bad podcast at what could it? You can always pretty good joint that fights. I might use that one you know, what the pub doom Pressel my friends, cold, welding. There we go. Matt Reynolds that I learned that babies are born without kneecaps kind of birth kneecaps just made of cartilage, which is like a self more, flexible material that cushions joins and it doesn't start to bone until between ages free or five and fully terms to bone. Adulthood, and that coffee is made much easier for babies too, cruel and it stops fracturing their knees when? They fall over a lot. But related is it then a problem that it just gets Bonier and bony the older you get until you need to become a problem when you're older, you will exactly. And that's the reason why it's really hard for us to cruel right on spent much time courting around your, yes. Your knees? But that's why I don't find it really hard because bones on spongy and able to kind of absorb that so baby designed to cruel, and then as I get older bones therm up, so they can walk. Okay. That's a benefactor Matt's. I think Vicky took that island fact about summon as in the fish summon have a really keen sense of smell, which they use to find their way to the home waters to get food and detect predators Atlantic salmon can smell wonderful sent in ten Olympic swimming pools with water which apparently makes them better than a dog or a bath. So we should be using salmon as sniffer dogs in airports. I'm not sure how practical that would be fun. If we could all walk through water instead of air that might work or salmon could swim through instead of water. That's another option, but will say there is some side news to this fax because climate change and the resulting rising levels of carbon dioxide. Maybe getting some salmon species ability to smell. So that's bad news for salmon. Sniffing salmon. What's the best way to get rid of rats on an island? Boo. Rats famously skittish creatures drones. So the Galapagos island of north Seymour, which is being overrun by invasive rats is not meant to be. It's mostly populated by seabirds is getting a helping hand from poison dropping drones who've been pelting the island with little puzzles of poison, and they use helicopters, and this is a fast, simpler, cheaper and quicker way of doing it. Bonus fact what's Judas goat? A goat that betrays you? Yes. So it's a phrase. It's not that well known, but halts cheese. But no. Fresh metal band. Just go. We are Judas goat. No, Judas go is someone who betrays people and by the revealing them to be in the wrong. Right. Isn't that? Just a Jesus though. Where does the goat come in? So Judas goat is. So this is related to the Galapagos. So those an invasive they needed to get rid of goats on an island. I think it was Guam and do so they tagged one goat with GPS tracker. And goats. It turns out we're always lead you to more goats. So they couldn't find all the goats on the island. They tagged one of them. And it led them some goats. They killed all those goats. But they kept the Judas go alive. Then Judas goat went and found more goats. They killed all those kept the Judas go alive and slowly. But surely this goat portrayed all of its goat friends into every go on the on it was dead. And that's what you just go is horrible. That's so sad on humans. Just terrible. The other goes Sandra get away from. Away from her and then from short from goats to beef Burge's Facebook has been in the news again this week probably not as apprised, but there is a new scandalous developed around the company this week, and it came from the reporting of tech crunch, which essentially I'm going to give you the before we get to the beef. I'm gonna give you the greens and give you the essentials that you need until we get really into that the more meaty stuff. So this week tech. Sorry. Please continue. Okay, positives. First, and then we'll debrief beings. Okay. So this week. It was revealed the Facebook has been paying teenagers and adults as well to have access to their phones. And basically everything that they do on their phones. And this was through a Apcoa the Facebook research app wasn't officially in the app store, but since two thousand sixteen Facebook has been paying these people have signed up to twenty pounds per month plus referral fees to essentially sell their privacy by installing the app, which will track their behavior across all different types of actions that they do this includes messages the app they use when their phones being used. I'm really every single thing that you do on your phone, and this is done so of a roots level device level settings. So really embedded in their your if you install this, you're giving Facebook permission to do absolutely everything on your phone, absolutely everything. So this is a very unusual kind of app, which is why we haven't heard about it in till now face wanted to keep this. Secret. Yes. Essentially, I mean it was. Through some of the ways that this was set up. It was done for a few of affiliate partners that didn't necessarily directly mention Facebook. But all the signs of weather. Data was going and everything so of lead back to Facebook. It was the app was called in some way it was face. But research on phones it showed you just up as research app. So it was a case of Facebook wouldn't necessarily have majorly hidden it did this. But it wasn't particularly overt in saying. This is something that we're doing, and it's not necessarily the first time that Facebook's had this sort of issue as well because the app it was a VPN app, which basically creates a private connection between yourselves and other people and previously Facebook the on a viral up Owen Avio mouth wrong, but that was removed from the app store. Previously after it was basically doing the same sort of collecting user data and feeding back to Facebook. So is this something that Facebook shouldn't have been doing and knew they were meant to do. So they dodgy about how they try. To get round this. I think you know, the answer to that one already and this is where the beef comes in. So this was the app was distributed via Facebook's enterprise developers certificate. So essentially, it didn't go through the app store on I s eight was installed Fru set per platform for an online download link essentially, and when you installed it on there. It was using the developer at the enterprise developer certificate, which is what Facebook and over apps by from apple to be able to develop their own absence ervices, so we've in Facebook there are versions of Facebook. Which on public beta versions, I think actually have like an orange Facebook logo rather than the blue one. And these are used by people within the company to be able to develop test new products. Things works doesn't work and basically Facebook was using this set of permissions to allow them to distribute this up. So it wasn't distributed for the app store. An apple basically took. Section two this so per Apple's terms and conditions. You're not allowed to use your developer account to publicly distribute an app, which is exactly what Facebook did manage to keep it a secret for three years. Yeah. And apple in response, basically banned Facebook's stopped Facebook from having its and price developer certificates in a statement. It said it designed the program solely for the internal distribution of outs within an organization Facebook has been using their membership to distribution data-collecting to customers which is a clear breach of their agreement with apple and as a result, apple temporarily. I think it was up to about today. I'm not fully sure on how long it lasted for. But they suspended the use of this at which meant that basically everybody inside Facebook couldn't really do any work on the app because because it wasn't working for them suspended apps and reports of said the Facebook internal staff told to download the public version, so they could continue to look Facebook on their phones and on is phones and do work. And it got worse than that. Because it turns out that Facebook uses developer apps to run Facebook. So if you need to order a ride to get around Ben mo- park, which is Facebook's headquarters, you couldn't you couldn't get on the bus or taxis is that face but uses around its campus. You can do a lot of things internal chat functions were broken all because apple went now. That's not on. Yeah. And that's basically where the sort of. Controversy except for the actual collecting data from the apple ready exists and four Facebook this causes or temporary problem it then apple did this. Facebook said it was going to stop using this up on oil s is still exist on Android, but because they couldn't find a way around apples apple systems and the way that the its development program works decided to stop using this tool, and it's the same actually Google as well because after this was reported by tech crunch. It was found the Google's running an app called screen wise meter, which basically works the same sort of way, and Google is also said it's going to stop doing this stop getting around Apple's rules, but there's even more beef. This is more of a historic disagreement. So basically this latest spat between apple Facebook is part of a bigger ongoing sorts of criticism, particularly by apple guests of Facebook and its business model so in the last. Year or so apple as an Tim cook? Specifically said that the company could make a lot more money if monetize its customer, if our customers our product he said, we could make a ton of money, we've elected not to do that because you are not product, and this is basically aimed at Facebook and so- Kebir responded in an interview saying that he didn't find the argument, very compelling affectively, and the the both of them have sort of being sort of saying critical things of each of in in the press and probably privately as well. Over the last six months, and is ready and the lady, and this is basically the latest escalation of of what's happened. And it just keeps going and going, and it doesn't seem like there's going to be a point at which this deescalate that both digging themselves into a deeper and deeper hole iphone privy Facebook data collection and just the way that face, but behaves you'd think that maybe it knew that it was running this project called I think it was called project. Atlas three years all the headlines that was swirling around in twenty maybe someone done like a little bit of an audit on the stuff that they're doing someone's gonna find out about this shutdown be transparent. Don't wait to be found out. It's quite remarkable as well. Isn't it because it's literally putting a price on your personal data that twenty dollars a month for everything dogging, this is the data that this was collecting goes well beyond what you expect Facebook to collect based on tease, which is already a lot. Right. Yeah. It is. And I think one of the really interesting things about this as being actually the of up which was removed before. One coat on barrow that was doing similar sort of thing. But fruit, the more apparently legitimate means also apple disagreed with. Because it said actually, it wasn't going through the proper means and processes and didn't mean meeting strip terms and conditions of its developer apps all services, apparently, this one of our was used by Facebook previously to see that. What's that was before Facebook? What's what's up was being used a lot more the messenger and a lot more messages were being sent so effectively their use this app. Saw the people were basically treating watts Abbas a huge deal. And then Facebook went onto by what's up? And according to reports around this Facebook is use the similar method to basically see what general trends in behaviors are and. There was a couple years ago. That was the law of talk about Facebook copying features the of our apps have been using. So obviously Instagram is probably the most famous account which had stories which was so. So taken in some ways from or copied from Snapchat and essentially of reading between the lines. It seems the Facebook potentially was looking at some sort of user behavior and saw that this was really popular feature. And for let's build our own version. Is it a problem that our best line of defences apple, so we're -ffective -ly? All agreed but Facebook did a bad thing. But is it concerning? The apple has assay over the way. It's rivals behave has complete control over what goes on its platform is not a problem. I don't think I mean, I think it's pretty clear through this developments difficult. What was and was not allowed, and it would be I think we'd be criticizing apple if they didn't stand by their own conditions in this case and take some kind of punitive action against Facebook. It was any down for a day for them. You know, I'm sure that caused a lot of disruption for the company, but it's hardly a great sentences it so. I think in this case, it's a problem that tech companies general have so much power. Yes. But in this case thing, apple probably did the right thing. That's not really the issue. Here is it's company had terms conditions of company. Abused them. It just happened to be Facebook. And for Apple's oppose it is quite good PR to make this very strong public statement. Everyone goes well done apple ill looks great. They might not have made such a public. This was a smaller company up against Facebook. It looks really good for apple to do the right thing. Yeah. And Facebook's Pat in this is the it's the app the people using the research up because it offended the it wasn't necessarily that secret because it was valuable you can find out about it online. And also that everybody taking Paul had to give their consent. So it wasn't. You're installing this happened. It was running in the background. And you didn't know about it in very you're supposed to read the terms and conditions. I don't think that everybody does. I think we can say that's pretty obvious. Oh, yeah. Defended by saying. Everybody was giving consent for children or people under eighteen and they have to get consent from a parent. Yeah. I think that there is a different here to me the bad thing. In sounds horrific. The headline isn't the faces tweet paying twenty quid to get people's data entry those tracking like fairly common pulling companies using a lot of people. So I know that's part of market research, and you can get that data obviously, slowly Anchorage just by pulling people in by asking those things it's more that Facebook knew where we need to check. This even though we know we can't find a legitimate route doing it. So let's find a different way of doing it. And the Facebook was basically chickens, actually, we need is information. We'll do whatever we can to find it. And I think that's what makes it seem. Sinister in the fact that like you said James a century and eventually, violates slowly tedious, TS and CS apples. But it shows that they don't really care about the regulations around companies that might want to stop you getting this data Yona thing a few op-eds that were written this week were essentially, pardon my French Facebook just does not give it. Good like, self beeping, and you go. Yeah. Just in case Apple's itunes platform. Decides to censor this podcast as a result of bad language, which it could do. Please don't reporters a quick thing. We were gonna talk about bit more. But I think there's enough Facebook for everyone. It was Facebook's quarter four twenty eighteen results this week. It'd be all expectations revenue sorta sixteen point nine one billion dollars. You're on your growth of thirty point four percent net income of six point eight billion dollars for the quarter. Which was Facebook's best result. Ever. You could say crisis what crisis? But there was an interesting thing that Mark Zuckerberg bought up on his earnings, call not this time but last quarter in October way said that Facebook's biggest competitor was I message which is apple messages on your phone, which is a really interesting point in amongst this people sharing less slight change in behavior. So I just wanted to get a quick straw poll from all of you. If Zuckerberg says the the biggest challenge to Facebook is a private messaging app and Facebook is reported. While it's confirmed it now merging the technology behind Instagram Facebook messenger, and what's up? How do you use Facebook? The public Facebook. I don't really. But I think even though I don't post that much anymore. There's still plenty of activity in things. And the as we say the platform has got many people using it as ever before. But I think the I'd probably say offer four of us in this room. Probably don't use it in a really public way in terms of like posting lots of updates statuses probably use the back inside of it with the back inside the the messaging side of Facebook business more. Yes. Which is really really interesting in terms of mouth superbug identifying apple as a competitor and amongst all of this beef between Facebook and apple as people change how they share Facebook more becomes law really knows Facebook's. I didn't new features marketplace in watching and scream stories and all these kind of things people want to share their lives more directly with people. So I have friends I have I have friends friends at least six friends. I have what's groups for friends from university friends who are journalists friends who are this that and the other and it allows you to directly talk to them and quite common now. Right. I'm not like blazing trail for. But that's a real problem because you're still interacting on its platforms. But you're doing it in private and if you're doing improve, but why do you need to be on Facebook in the first place the danger for Facebook? And the reason that Zuckerberg is identified apple and messages its biggest challenge is the if you're not sharing publicly why are you on Facebook? Anyway, you might as well just use another service. Yeah. I think the problem is that face become more of a media sharing tool. Right. I mean, I do still go on Facebook every day. But it's more almost my whole feed is filled with media stories, a little videos, whatever, you know, I'm interested in some of them. It's one way I keep on top of some of the new sites. I enjoy. But yeah, it's definitely kind of loss personal touch me. And I'm the same. I use Instagram us what's up for private messaging, should obviously both owned by Facebook. I can envisage would be quite easy for me to stop using Facebook. If I chose to but migrating from what's up when I've got all of my friends and family groups on there. That would be a real difficulty. Which is why we still reports last week from the New York Times about Facebook trying to work out some kind of way of merging those platforms together. So think about it is it's not a battle of the social networks. More battle at the private networks, but for Facebook to keep making all of that huge huge amount of advertising revenue it's still needs people to be communicating publicly says can be really interesting to see how it ends up doing that second story how to train your dragon Vicky tower. There's a new one out, and it's very good. Yes. Something bit more light hearted for the weekend. So housetrained dragon. The hidden world is out today. Friday, sorry. I imagine quite fearlessness might be going to see it this weekend. It's the third in the series and the final installment as well. And so I saw the film, and I spoke to director dean diplo about some of the challenges of tying up such a well loved franchise and how they manage the dragon so adorable Burgess. I dunno anything about this. Is it actually valid dragon. Yes. So quick recap for those who haven't seen in a while. Or who haven't like Burgess cultural? Void what shit if you've seen the other films in the house train you dragon series. You'll know that the story so far is essentially we have our protect protagonist young Viking hiccup and his dragon buddy toothless, they generally kind of fly around having a great time and saving the day. And in the third film that base grownup somewhat seven the first film, the hiccup was very much a child now, he's kind of blooming into adult hood and after bringing the Viking and dragon world together in the first film. Hiccup begins to realize that maybe the dragons kind of best left in their own world. There's also, of course, new villain called gremlin and hold adventure around him trying to hunt the dragons to extent sink Shen, etcetera, etcetera and hiccup and co having to save the day. But to be honest, that's kind of by the by. It's more about the sort of coming of age story of hiccup and toothless and their friends. Which is a bit off for animation. Right. You look at things like well toss toys, maybe an exception. Obviously, the toys don't get older, but Andy does the kid and that sort of progresses the plot along, but so many films and TV shows that are animated. Everyone stays the same age that trapped in time. Whereas here it's growing up. Yes. So it's very unusual as you say in animating for the characters to kind of age from film to film, but they do here in the first film Cup is obviously kind of basically child he's just learning to be a dragon hunter. And in the second. He's a bit older and this fine final on. It's very much his kind of becoming an adult. It's like a right of passage, and so yeah, the characters character to grow up both physically and emotionally. And that makes them very relatable is one of my favorite things about the franchises. Is it you you feel like they're really kind of real characters. They've got that real humanity to them. And the director told me that he was partly inspired by the Harry Potter films for this and seeing audiences grow up with the. Characters. So does that mean the acting much better in the? Terrible jerk that. Yeah. I mean that was very much generation, right? The Harry Potter films. And I don't know if you guys went to see the more when they came out, but we were sort of the same age as the characters, and as we grew up site at the cactus in the film, and it's the same with how to train your dragon. So if you went to see the first one when you were eight years old, and then the second one you were like thirteen and now you're kind of moving on with your life and going through that awkward teenage phase, and sort of coming to some realize Asians about the world that's captured in this that installment. So yeah, I think it's really good. And it also it's also it was also a very practical narrative choice because when the first film was released. They didn't really have sequels in mind. It was sort of you know, let's see if this this does anything, and obviously it was really popular. But because of that by the end of the story, it kind of completed it self so hiccup the main character has everything he wants by the end of the first film got. Got his cool. Dragon his down proud. He's got the attention of the girl. He fancies. He's like not a problem in the world. So the decision to track his journey, and he grows up. I think it was really smart rather than just sort of throwing arbitrary problems at him to make equals because it doesn't feel forced often the third installment of something that didn't need third installment. Can I've just four animates weather is little bit of growing up throughout not to the same extent. But cars as McQueen gets older. He's a bit slower and is a bit more challenge. But it doesn't probably don't quite the same as this. But it's slight narrative to it wasn't caused the worst big saw franchise by did really well commercially. But my in terms of field recently in quite enjoyed it. Probably par. So how to train your dragon? I wish it on a major film once the folks in the hound. That she has a sweet coming of age story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There we go Burgess watches films, at least one film as saying. Three sorry interrupted not tool. But is there anything about this film that doesn't quite worthy animation looks beautiful? You say the narrative, which really well with the coming of age is something that doesn't quite fit together. Well, I found the plot with the villain grim l-, and that was a bit of two dimensional to me it was bit tacked on he didn't seem like a particularly developed character by some of the younger audiences watching. It will will like the aspect has sort of that very action adventure feel to it. But the quieter bits were what really got me interested, and I think for an animated film particular, the character development and the relationships were really handled. Really, well, this actually which has to about this my favorite scene. I think it will be the favorites of many people when they come out the cinema spoilers. Yeah. Just get forward. Ten minutes. If you don't wanna hear anything will five minutes. I mean, that's a major spoiler. I'm just describing a scene quite early on in the film. But it's an entirely dialogue free moment. So all you've got is the music and the animation, and it's when toothless the dragon meets lady dragon called the light fury. He is of course, night fury and sort of tries to flirt with her. But because he's been in the human world for so long. He sought forgotten his natural dragon ways. And so he's sort of doing these dances encouraged by hiccup who's hiding behind a rock. He's doing these increasingly ridiculous mating ritual style dances to try and impress her. And this goes on for quite a while with a single word said, and it's just really touching and also very very funny. And so that that that for me kind of encapsulates what I really loved about this foam, and if you're stupid enough to Google to train your dragon erotica, it doesn't just and you shouldn't regain James, giggle. This not me. Right. But if. Thankful faithful what? Route twenty three is probably one twenty three is. Is your mind? Stuck on a piece of e-? You copyright directive. That's article thirteen what's twenty three. I think it goes up. Thought so. Was roofer four. If it exists. There is porn of it. Okay. Interesting. The less not sully this much beloved family friendly film franchise James have you seen it? Did you enjoy podcast at one cut it UK? Or if you want to send in your how to train your dragging a rutta. We are all is. Yes. We will not be reading it out on podcast third story, sleep. Matt Reynolds, everyone needs it. But does anyone get enough of it? Well, as is now customary for my sections, the parkers have a brief survey. I will be making your data doesn't cause twenty pounds. Charging when pound. So what does each of you do for your morning routines? Do bullet journal yoga session up at five. AM? Vicki I usually set my on on for seven press on sneeze. Ten minutes at seven ten kind of opened my eyes flick through my fame for twenty minutes, and then eventually get out bed and put the Catalan actually starting yourself the unhealthy social media does that's good James. I'm four four a running inspiration session with my personal life. Coach then hit the hot yoga session, pretty hard and eat some burcin muesli while on an exercise bike, so far you under could do better. Six forty five roughly. Straightens the shower leave the house at about twenty seven. So I'm pretty much up dressed out. Not sufficient a clock seven fifty five. I recently changed my alarm tones. It's less Alami America detective fem-. So it makes every morning going to solve a mystery. Thrilling? To the point is is I didn't spend much time looking at Silicon Valley luminaries morning plans. Just give you a taste of what for instance, Twitter CEO, Jack Dorsey, he gets up a five AM. He meditates thirty minutes. Three times seven minute workouts, Mesa coffee, and then checks his Email around Huffington, the founder of the Huffington Post wakes up without naturally, thirty minutes on exercise bike combined with emails, of course, brief yoga session, then a bulletproof coffee, which is kind of bizarre concoction containing coffee beans, Tuesday, tablespoons of butter and something good brain active oil full of science, your brain volume. Essentially, just more cocoa coconut imagine coffee. But you've just poured like losing. Greasy coffee, and the point I'm going to making the we've heard a lot recently about Silicon Valley so migration and pushing things to extreme and actually bulletproof coffee is a really interesting example about this. There's amazing piece of men's Health Minute and the founder of bulletproof coffee guy could Dave Asprey he injects himself every six months, I think with his own stem cell, so he's harvested half liter time from his own bone marrow. But bone marrow in Jackson, scalp his face and his genitals. We're not recommending this, right? Yeah. You should do. That's I do. So I can fervor optimize my morning routine. Oh, yeah. Exactly. Just to the bone marrow. Extraction. His mission goes even further he wants to live one hundred eighty Asprey as one hundred seven hundred day, he paves an infrared light he goes hyperbaric oxygen chamber and when he has a plane he only wears yellow tinted glasses. I think to stop kind of infrared radiation or something maybe this says very inspiring. But why are we talking about it? So the reason is is because you don't have to feel bad about Silicon Valley routines wherever that's injecting. Stem cells enter testicles bulletproof coffee, because maybe we're not all built in the same way. Maybe there certain things. Affects people more than others as the reason for this. Actually, it will comes back to sleep. So I start with sleep. So there's new evidence suggests that actually the might be genetic reason why some people are morning people and some people find it much easier to stay up productive in the evening. And there was a study this week, which basically said this is the case. Yes, where she knew about this a little bit. So actually a couple years ago in two thousand seventeen three biologists won the Nobel prize in medicine for discovering what's called the period, gene. Which basically in codes is protein is released at nighttime, and let's bodies. No there is time for sleep. And then that degrades throughout the day, which which makes you feel more tired and this previous research up until now identified around twenty four genes that determine the way the human body clock is which the second ribbon. Rhythm internal cycle of sleep fullness alertness to renew their twenty four jeeze relate to that. This new study just been released shows that we think about free hundred fifty one genes that actually raised to sleep pattern. Pretty sure circadian rhythm is the first song on Judas goats debut album. I love I love the Gedeon ribbon terrible joke. So when I used to get up for work at about half past five in the morning. There was a reason that I felt like I was going to die. It's not even if I go to bed at six seven eight o'clock at night if I have to wake up before seven, I just feel awful. And there's nothing I can do about it. Yeah. Exactly. And what we seem to be leading towards there's actually kind of genetic reason for this. So think about this free hundred and fifty one genes and one this study found is that on average people that have more of those jeans because obviously people have some jeans people some people don't have other genes. So the more of those free hundred and fifty one, gene. You've got they were more likely on average to go to bed twenty five minutes earlier than the people that carry the least number of teams. This seems to suggest that your bedtime is somehow related to your genetic makeup. So if you if you have more of the genes, you're worse off. Well, it's not the your worst off. It's that you're more likely to be a morning person. 'cause you go to bed earlier you get up earlier. So actually in a way, you're better off. Morning people at disgusting. So right, right. That's like a personal thing. But the idea being are wealthy setup for morning people because you know, our job start at nine or whatever and daylight and stuff. So the idea being that if you have genetic makeup they slightly out of kilter with the way the world usually works. And that probably means you're a little bit of a disadvantage, am I right in thinking that obviously people as they progress throughout their working lives a waking up an early time. If I work a standard of working hours like consistently and you see to like more naturally. Wake Tom is that just because we've trained our bodies rather than? I guess you can't change. So. The question. Does it make sense to get up at seven AM? Or is that an entirely we'd ultra Fisher thing that we've ended up doing. Well, I think what the study seems to suggest is that you Mona take your individual genes into account. I mean, I don't think that means that you should go get DNA test. My. But my clock back twenty five minutes. I think is about being a little bit less hard on yourself. It was really interesting actually is the sleep times from this has been associated with loads of mental health conditions such as depression schizophrenia. So last year a report found transiting, depression or bipolar disorder and of being lonely all increase for people who reported higher levels of activity night. So what it might suggest is the there is some kind of not necessarily sleep is causing these people that genetically might be more likely to going to different cycle that kind of gap between their genetics and their lifestyle might be some kind of factor in mental health conditions. But we only know the correlation that right not the causation. Yeah. Exactly. These things were mentally complicated. It's not like these genes are only the only determinant of leap. Whatsoever. But it's it's suggesting that perhaps there is this kind of underlying problem with this mismatch between the way we live our lives in the way that we might naturally steer ourselves towards and is really nasty way that people some people tend to write and think about sleep that. It's remember we interviewed a CEO of the watch company wants to paraphrase, he basically said to sleep is to die. I remember that one four AM and like runs one hundred miles before breakfast. Not Mark it's up to each person. Now, they want to run their lives, but that kind of myth, the sleep is worthless has over the last decade also being punctured and this latest research shows that it's not just that. It's good for you. It's that you're genetically set up to sleep in a certain way, and you really shouldn't try and fight that. Yeah. Exactly. And it's basically saying that perhaps we should wake up to the fact wake up like that pun, Berlin. That we might want to be a little bit more flexible and understand the different different sleep patterns different people in a more Optima way, and she does can be the focus of these researches neck speech research. They're going to say when actually is there something saying Becky, you know, is there something about these people that don't match up their sleep patterns with genetics. They more likely to suffer from certain conditions. Are they is affecting their lives in some way? And I think that we can understand this a bit more. It might mean that we start living a bit more forgiving of different cycles in different sleep patterns. You're not lazy. You genetically a morning. It's a great excuse not sleep challenged sleep challenged. Absolutely. I have considered myself to sleep challenged for most of my life. So the story to that is in the pockets notes of everything that we've discussed on the show. But as always we'd love to get your feedback podcast K if you've got anything. To say about Facebook. I realize you probably don't because we talk about it too much, but sleep how to train your dragon get in touch podcast, what k- time for a little bit of feedback map Burgess. So they wrote into say, I don't I don't usually write to Brown's feedback. However, author listen to your podcast today's ago episodes four hundred four hundred happen to four hundred one on my way to work pass the beaches, Sydney, and I can just say breath of fresh air, and she enjoyed our content human personalities jealous. I walked to work pasta beach where if you got up earlier. For. Somewhat impractical. Well, you know, be the change. Reynolds, you'd like to read out the next one. Yeah. Well, wrote in saying just isn't your podcast, very good. But really it really needs to be half the length, Alex, I would recommend just stop halfway through. On food speed. He said less padding analysis more compact, facts and information ordeal is twenty to thirty minutes. Maybe we should spin off where it's just hard fire backs. News facts, news, fangs all all just double speed. Yeah. Devils bid the made seriously faster. We don't believe Greg. Is kind of annoying upsetting me. Yes. But no to take your point. Seriously, Alex, do try and stick to the facts and stories and then do a little bit of analysis. Sometimes we disobey down a rabbit hole. Normally woman talking about Facebook. Which is why really shouldn't have bought it on the podcast this week. But we are doing our best to really stick to what we should be talking about. And not talk about watching cars. Sorry. Apology to Alex. I severe says she likes the humor and personality each contributor. So it's actually great. We've got severe Alex two separate forms. And hope we find some way in the middle of pleasing them both compromise. That's what it's all about. It's really nice. When people tell us that they like the podcast what they don't like about the podcast, but we do really love getting emails from you about the stories that we talk about podcast couldn't UK. If you've got anything to say about anything that we talked about on the podcast because it's nice apple sells slap on the back show. It's nice to hear yourself in the face. But it's really cool. When we get what you guys think about the things we talk about Vicky took the white book club quick reminder, obviously really excited about it yet. Just you'll you'll Wiki reminder about the Wyatt club the current book that we are reading is bad blood by John Kerry. It's the story of theranos the blood testing startup that went really well, and then went really badly. We'll be talking about it on the podcast on February. Thirty seconds. Even a couple of weeks to read the books. Not that long is you're probably get started. If you're going to an Email is what you think about it at what could it UK. We'll put a link to read an extract to the book in the show notes. I think it's wide dot UK Ford slash bad blood. All one word. It's a cracking read. We do recommend that you pick it up. That's it for this week. I'm Matt Burgess. That's it for a month giving you a break. I'm gonna go watch cars repeat for an entire you are a true cultural. Void. So we'll see you again next week. Burgess will see you in a very long time. Thanks for listening. Good. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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Special: Beyond the Redline--Opportunity Zones Up Close

Confessions of a Marketer

31:51 min | 1 year ago

Special: Beyond the Redline--Opportunity Zones Up Close

"It's the innovation podcast with Marguerite Edwards, and Garnett Harriman. Let's start the show. How you doing? Great. How you doing today's violence starting to warm up here in New York. And it's a beautiful morning here. We are going to continue. Our chat of opportunities owns and we also have a guest today with us for this discussion carnet you wanna introduce him. What what this is supposed to be an internal conversation. Drop five for for a couple of. No. But you invited him. Maybe maybe I'm trying to pay back that other. So you want introduce them absolutely have lain Jost with us today from VW see Boston and other projects that he's done over the years, which all let him talk about. But lane is a thought leader in socially, responsible, investing impact, investing, see, our corporate social responsibility and has been for many years. He's done it in a few different places and politician pump about the details. Hey, how are you today? I'm great. Thanks so much for heavily on Garnett. And Mark it's great to have you here. So as film New England or have to have to complain about the lack of early spring, unfortunately around hog much like the opportunities own guidances vague straight. But it's great to figure. Perfect speak with you. All it's good having. Enervate, hopefully, we can keep adding some clarity to the opportunities and stuff and other varies in sundry topics or innovation in opportunities in general, you know, you and I talked to couple of weeks ago about opportunities owns and then we had Peter Stewart on the show talk about opportunities. Owns smart guy. Yeah. And it was it was a really interesting discussion that we had because it was so good. We made it into two parts. And here we are again, an opportunity Jones are top of mind for me and for you and lane is here now. So why don't we mind that vein a bit more? So one of the smartest things that Peter talked about I thought I don't know what your review was marked. But I remember the section fourteen minutes in or something like that about the four buckets. Pretty pretty smart pretty clever, and like very very clear distillation of how how it works from Lehman standpoint. And. I on a parallel track. You know, have been working on a project with some partners in Los Angeles around the Los Angeles, actually, south Los Angeles is your multiple opportunities owns in LA metro, but in the south Los Angeles opportunities on and that has actually taken on a lot of momentum since that last recording. We've raised a minimum of ten million dollars been committed. And it looks like it's probably going to be significantly more than that over time from a group of investors out of Scottsdale, Los Angeles, and then Hoover. Yes. Pretty that's pretty interesting. What's the incentive for someone in Vancouver to invest in something like this because it can't be attacks at center instead of all what hand is is that a lot of people who are in are domiciled in Vancouver actually have dual citizenship and. A lot of Canadian folks who I guess invade the void or back and forth between Vancouver and Seattle though. It's actually Seattle money that originated in Vancouver by you know, I didn't really ask any questions per save. If they're part of a syndicate of and not a crime syndicate, hopefully, but. RIA RIA's or registered investment advisers. They'll even if the RIA is based in Vancouver. Goodwill, probably is American money. So, you know, the representing family offices ultra high network individuals consta-, and so the group of folks that I know are are are not actually investing for themselves. They're basically channeling multiple groups of family office money investment of money, that's kind of efficient way of raising money. Right. Because you're not talking one person at a time. So all of that is unfolding at the same time. You know, we're exploring what it means to operationalize the capital. His clearly the capital raising is not not the issue. You know, there have been billions of dollars in vote funds. We'll get back to that. Why has to be in quoting at some point in this conversation? But there've been lots and lots of money raised. It's a verbal. Veritable bonanza that was humorous part of our last podcasts. And we we have a couple of macro theories for our group. Our group is called fuel LA and fuel is a bit of an acronym. Stands for the future of urban economy in life in L A anywhere else. But this one happens, we call people L A, and one of our macro theses is is pretty simple. If it's that basically a lot of people who raise the money are going to have problems putting it to work forget about the the fakeness of the policies, you know, statutes, and the, you know, the the legal requirements in all the constraints on how the money has to be invested in order to claim that the benefit that's hard enough. What we're seeing is a very very vocal and very well organized opposition routing up in some of the most attractive cities or opportunity on the ATL, and and just go being among them and this opposite. Is basically saying no who with they have turned development with displacement. So our roof was taken the position right from the outset you before raising money that that we wanna find smart ways to be more community Centric more. I don't know enabling of of wealth distribution or redistribution and to pursue projects that are more skewed towards development without displacement. And I think that's a great segue. Until one of the reasons why it's gonna be fun to have laying chime in on this with his, you know, I think fifteen years of expertise in what it means to be socially responsible corporate citizen thoughts on all that lane. Yeah. I think that's a nice a nice frame. I think the Garnett from your, you know, early phase venture investing background. Round it. You know, it's interesting how you come to the opportunities own tax credit because when just say I'll just bring this up a little bit from my perspective, which is kind of corporate sustainability corporate citizenship. But then also what it means to do kind of live and work in this phase of mission driven capital. So whether it's corporates looking to to drive greater sustainability within their supply chain, but really more increasingly corporates family offices than Dacians individuals high net worth folks looking to do good with capital versus doing less, dad. Instead just a frame this over the past, you know, really twenty twenty five years in the US. You know, there's been lots of energy going from corporate sustainability corporate responsibility reporting, which is having companies be more transparent about their social environmental impacts, which now we have almost eight. Percent of the SNP five hundred reports on social environmental indicators, these revolving Terry indicators, but we're in his interesting moment where you know, companies have said, okay. You know, we wanna do more good versus just doing less bad. And we think that goes right back shareholder value. That's one heck of a statement. We all agree. Even those of us it might be sympathetic to that kind of aspiration. But that at the same time, you have people Larry faint who for several years have written this in will let her talk about the role of the contemporary ration- has provide value beyond shareholder value this year. He used this concept of purpose which. We'll get into right now is not my area of expertise. But the point being is that, you know, cordless assay in two thousand nineteen the corporation has to play a greater role in the overall wellness of the key news in which it operates, and of course, that can be unpacked in many different ways. And so along comes the White House is opportunities own provision which taken on the face of it for moment to space on the tax code is a relatively remarkable unleashing of tax benefits to push capital into areas. Where capital may or may not wanna go Garnett. You alluded to this moment ago when you said, you know, private equity deals capitals there with interesting about the opportunities own is couple of things one can't find capital from people that seek so call social capital returns. Meaning can you invest in a? On a housing or a real estate investment trust in Westside, Los Angeles. And can you find private equity range returns? But then also a measurable way about money is maybe improving job opportunities in that code. This may be improving entrepreneurial capacity for entrepreneurs it was lap traditional forms of support capital whatnot. So I think, you know, the opposition just to is is going to continue to be strong because they're skeptics in this space. And I think on a couple more points in heavy guys jump into Saigon, belabor it. But I think this autos back to really through the community reinvestment act, which was passed by congress in nineteen seventy nine which a lot of folks don't realize I spent a little time in Banking's, I can speak to a little bit. So all Laura's US banks following nineteen seventy nine have to prove no fairly robust or transparent way to the federal. Governments civically the OCC that they're providing the same levels of capital in credit to load, moderate income communities where their business but print exists. So if you're a Bank that has a, you know, a major business footprint in major metropolitan areas like Boston, New York, Philadelphia. You have to prove that you're branches living in zip codes have their low to moderate incomes. It coats that your digital products are sufficiently marketed to that segment of the population. So that in nineteen seventy nine when the community reinvestment act was created which was really a in effort by congress to combat redlining, which was essentially banks dropping or shutting down their lending to Lamar income citizens in borrowers business to come back to you, by the way on the red lighting thing because there was nothing very a seminal. I saw recently that that health conditions of. The brand strategy in the position tragedy for our our investment group in LA. Yeah. It's already sorry for the public not tedious history lesson. But I do think this is relevant from an opposition. I think the cri. The Sierra created really created an interesting ecosystem around cities, which was element existed before the Sierra. This is really focus is community leaders who are being displaced by capita, leaving cities quality of education, leaving cities, and these folks that were taking any repents back in when the Sierra was passed it provided pre strong regulatory mechanism that pushed capital back into these spaces via compliance. So you have the element folks that are really focused on Ford -able housing on Ansel, education's entrepreneurship specifically in their codes. In along comes this opportunities credits that you're gonna have some successes because these folks have been basically combating last half of the twentieth. Century light. And now, they're combating gentrification. And so this is a community doesn't benefit with gentrification night. You got a pretty big tax credit this providing opportunity for significant capital flows to drive up potentially drive up property value. And so there's definitely gonna be some local level skepticism. But the opportunity I think to stem that from, you know, getting investors what they want and giving the Hewitt. They want is some kind of a sort of impacted vesting or a guard rail like expression on how this how these investments can be set up how they can be operationalized user. And then how can they how can they be measured in? There's there's a lot of energy now from the so-called impact investing world, which is, you know, foundations I hesitate think-tanks, but there's a number of I think impact investing leaders in the US who've who've developed a white paper. Around reporting framework. Like, what are you know, if you're an investor not rezone if you look at the spirit of the law in how are you measuring measuring entrepreneurial investing? I think there's a lot of folks from the small business evasion. Mariel support ecosystem world who are excited in our optimistic because if you look at traditional mechanisms of the community investment that we're talking about philanthropy, we're talking about new market task credit financing so money that supports your tax credits. For donors mainly used to develop for housing projects was exciting about this vision is it could be all kinds of different kinds of businesses. There's a little less restriction in. We're still some questions about what restrictions are out there. But so for people in getting abusive likely like worms, I view on that that the enterprise investing versus a real estate investing later in this conversation. Citing that's on the less sceptical side. I think a lot of it is around. How can the capital collaborate with decision makers who understand that this the dynamics of social capital? So so the new development people that have worked in neighborhoods really understand who the local leaders are. Whether it's nonprofit public sector or small business leaders who can really densify the funding gaps in can help inform. The right kind of deal flow at the Beth really critical. If the overly vague comment, we can talk about some more. I think from the more impact or mission driven development world. There are people on leaders who are very mission driven measuring outcomes. Who are intrigued by working with the private capital world. If say kinda have is the synergy, but I think the question right now. In addition to the reds is like corporate sustainability like impact investing. Social responsible investing. He actually do this in a way that drives traditional value. But also actually has measurable rentable social return that that's a big question. I find something really interesting here on this podcast. We talk about innovation, and we're usually talking about the what what are you doing to innovate and here. It's seems like we're talking about the how how're you doing something for the wise or the or the why it it's the what is almost like something that's kind of assumed or will come later, and here it's about a Techni gore or a motivation that is that is driving this innovation. It's really fascinat-. I heard a roar recently, lark. And I don't know if you help me validate this in a on air, but I heard that the the read Edwards four acre compound is actually opportunities out. Yeah. Full of opportunity. I also heard that you were a sort of libertarian, and you had declared your compound or sovereign state. The Free State of read Edwards. I've been I've been a near neighborhood in New York. So I know it's very similar down there to accept on four acres. Norm. I just for the real, okay? Let let let's go couple of things that that Burchett just quick background on on on lane to to help frame where where that expansive perspective comfortably you. So you you have been a pretty high level consultant PW see, but you've also become an expert on another vehicle together sort of pushing into the oven guard of of impact and that is down Dacians new. You're the Bank foundation rate, which which Banchory sauna their Bank, which is Austin bearing on northeast of the US. Got it got it in your kind of uniquely situated to comment on the novel in investment structures. Right because you've touched early stage, you've touched I don't know what to call that Rhode Island group community investing type funds or or or local investing type funds and you've touched impact funds right in in. Directly through a directly through kit. Give quick though, you know, you've seen a few different Ida rations of novel investment structures. So I think I've shared a little bit about gaffes with Mark previously. But maybe maybe just riff on the sort of Provence, I feel like gas and opportunity on funds are very much on a spectrum. Even though they were, you know, as holiday legislations, unrelated, I feel that they exist on a spectrum. What do you think about that? Yeah. I agree. I think the spectrum emitted it, we just wanna talk tell everyone. I love we won. What donor advised fund is for the simplest way. To think. About donor advised fund is essentially in individual who seeks charitable tax deduction. So in the US, you know, in the IRS regulations charitable tax deduction is mainly considered. If you're giving money to a final three. US public Sherry that? It basically assumes that my is doing mission driven are public interest work is not being done in public sector. So that the federal government provides tax deduction for the donor because degraded incentive for that institution. Which is about a one c three public cherry to use that money to drive public goods. So it runs the gamut as many after many listeners very familiar with what if I see three providence. A donor advised fund provides essentially inability for a donor to pool at money in a fund donor advised fund commonly known as Daf in get a meat tax exempt benefits without that money than having to be passed on directly to an operating by one C three not profit. But well guts McClair it has to be passed up. But there's no there's no real clear time line of when it has to be passed up. That's right. Thanks for that. You know, traditionally in the simply giving in the nonprofit giving world foundations traditionally have held this sort of aggregation role where donors can give a million dollars through its operating board to decide how to make the investments of charitable investments. The video of the Dow is is we get into this world where Blanchard be is becoming really more and more democratic based on better technology, better information to learn about the different impact models donors can create a doubt it can be done through a third party like a national visor, and they can put that money into the donor advised fund and the money in sit there they can for that tax. You can get the benefit, but then they can decide how to meet out those dollars to share these as they see fit. Now, there's obviously there has to be a board that sits on that money. In donor has advised how the money gets spent a tent me we don't have one hundred percent thority at how that money gets spent. But obviously there's. There's an ability for that money to go to nonprofits that they would like, so it's the Daf has become has really gone up in popularity because I think increasingly we're seeing younger in tech founders other folks that are getting wealthier faster wanting their hands on their money more directly versus maybe just giving a million dollars to a significant nonprofit that they have affinity for foundation. They relationship with. So the Daf is provided you know, as a tax family individual almost democratic impact investing. I can use that term for folks nitty wanna play one reap the benefit of tax. I'd immediately, but then wanna Comores fully approach to grant making more like in private equity investor at Vassar cool. He'll put it into like something new give money you set aside buddy, the death and get a. A hundred percent tax deduction immediately in that taxpayer, and then you have X number of years, you know, people like sitting on the money for three in five years at a time and stuff like this. And then the other thing is you can actually have say, I I don't know that you have one hundred percent safe, but you have a say in of pointing or selecting the people or the organization that would actually allocate the money. So what I I heard of a death. I had this image of a cartoon. I don't remember it might have been one of the early. Mickey Mouse cartoons where you put a dollar on a string, and you put the dollar into like vending machine. And then when the object comes out of the vending machine, you yank the dollar back. Thoughts. Not exactly what's happening. But it feels like you're giving away the money and getting the tax benefit. And then sitting on the money at times, if you're if you're not like totally straightforward with, you know, follow, you know, God knows there have been people who have played fast and loose with the death stuff. But so anyway, I if it feels like that's all spectrum with some of this opportunity on regulations, and because it preceded it, and then it shape people's thinking, including that think tank who sort of came up with the legislation and pushed it birth under Obama, and then had got it signed under Trump. But I want to go back to something that lane mentioned earlier, which was redlining. Can you just tell people what redlining is who are not like civics historians, and you know, knowledgeable about that of stuff because it's easy to overlook. I think a lot of middle class folks and upper middleclass folk of any color, you know, white or otherwise don't really know redlining. Yeah. Red lying is is exactly what it sounds like major American banks really during the middle of the twentieth century, basically, literally created maps based on metropolitan areas that they operated in basically drew lines of demarcation where they were gonna lend money where they're not gonna lend money to essentially based on the demographics of the neighborhood industry. Very direct in based on mainly African American populations in US cities with allow white suburban slate happening is is neighborhood started to change in December essentially pulling out of these coats because it's no longer in our business interests, and that created essentially like very very strong racial divides. If a fun lift any what you're suggesting, right? I mean that that that's the reality of what happened if the capital is following the white flight or or vice versa because it's not really clear, which which was the driver to me thought of a vicious. In some ways, right, though, if the capital follows the white flight and leaves a capital vacuum in the urban areas where there's a lot of black folk a lot of African Americans then certain things happen, right? Very significant racial divides along this urban suburban or urban sort of divide that's one thing. And then, you know, without the capital the level of community development and economic development. That's possible. Obviously start to take a nosedive. And then over cades, you know, you start to have kind of what you have today, which is it pockets of under served under development areas that are nestled within larger robust economically productive megalopolises in some cases, like like LA and New York, San Francisco and Seattle. And so I think that's one of the things that that the opportunities owners really try to trying to smooth out that division that Loveliness rate between certain areas and other. Areas. So I I was mentioning earlier that I've seen this exhibit a group enterprise community partners, very large, technically nonprofit, and what they do is lend money they have a few different financial instruments. They lend money into pretty much every affordable housing project around the country. They're faced in DC highly funded, and they're very very savvy, and you know, the there's a lot of crossover between some of their financial, folks. And basically Wall Street, though, they get they get folks who are adept at creating novel financial structures tax credits. You know von securitisations at and they use that sophistication financial sophistication to created that they that provide additional incentive to investors who are willing to invest in a Ford will housing, so that's enterprise community partners that they have a travelling exhibit. Like hundreds of places around the country, that's old undesired the red line. And at it's it's a pretty cool thing. It's a it's an interactive event and a series of videos and infographics and immersive experiences noticed that basically shows the history of what redlining has done to urban areas around the country, and you know, I was following a thread when I was thinking about those sort of branding in positioning for fuel L A on one on the one side. He researching some of the pushback on the protests lane was referring to in cities, like the ATL and emphasis and thinking, gee, let's be clever and go to the where the white spaces. And then I saw this red line exhibit. None like holy smoke. There's something very substantial about this whole thing. And and it's not just the if not a nice to have this position that I was involved, but the positioning is absolutely required. Because. Of this history. This thirty two now, it's eighty or ninety year history of structural discrimination and end the impact of that. So that's a really cool exhibit. Maybe in the program note will put a website up for undesired the red line. I don't know if either one of you guys, Mark or lane have have come across this. Yeah. I have into enterprise is talking about comedian element enterprises is a major major player MC meet all world, whether it's financial instruments or more direct answer, peer. But I think just the Redline thing. There's mention again just in the context of opportunities ends because. Yeah, we're talking about. I mean, just pan out for moment. I may really talking about this battle between private capital in governmental oversight in some ways. So you know in the thirties redlining goes back to twenty. Thirties. I think the term wasn't terminated until the sixties or seventies. Holly. By some academic looked at literally their maps out there, folks. Can there is absolute yet? It's actually it's pretty shocking. It really is that there's an exhibited. We're not talking about like something that banks quietly just probe you all increase the risk pool. A this was a strategy. This was a direct business strategy where the private sector said, you know, we're gonna do it banks do best we just let into what we think is the most credit worthy populations like in. So cuties like as we all know, this is not a podcast on debt financed. But can't find a payroll for grocery store neighborhood. There's gonna be Dc long-term props and. Sort of go back to -tunities owns. Yeah. I mean, I think in some ways the opportunities has to be considered the skeptics have to be properly respected because we're now we're talking about more capital going billing into these owns, and you know, how. You know, how we really at a we set up. How do we they you're out strategies? How do we how do we learn from some of the systemic failures in? We are talking about it explicit role regulatory role here. So it's going to this market y'all can speak by that of the night hand. But have investors feel about regulatory headwinds in political challenges? And then of course, I'll just mention one other name right now who's very loud in the contemporary moment who's written this book winners. Take all a non jury dot us allies mismatch his name. He's a he's a writer who who's really really been vocal about Lancer p being basically dodge for systemic problems like unfair tax systems whatnot. C? You definitely have a growing chorus certainly led by liberal wing of the Democratic Party in Washington. So the scepticisms out there. I think it's about it's really just about the right engineering. Operational thinking. Yeah. A lot of it is good steak owner. All right next time. We continue our chat about opportunities owns with rain Jost in the weeks ahead. We'll be talking with Daniel Ray about the innovation. He heads up at ultimate guitar Mark Gallaher about innovation in the world of f one Francesca Gino of Harvard Business School about how rebels can help a company embrace innovation. And we're also planning discussions with experts in elder TEK, and e sport, so stay with us. Joining Mark on the innovation podcast. Visit innovation podcast dot CO. Two. Subscribe and listen to other episodes.

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Takeout Outtake Especial: Eric Winston and Mark Leibovich

The Takeout

10:14 min | 2 years ago

Takeout Outtake Especial: Eric Winston and Mark Leibovich

"You're listening to the takeout from CBS News Radio. I major Garrett. This your Tuesday, takeout out tick specialist portion of our program on CBS San as all of it is. But it's our special segment for our podcast listeners. Your well recovered I hope from your thanksgiving for volunteers. But we're still talking about football with fantastic guests Markley vich who is the chief national correspondent for the New York Times magazine, far more importantly, the author of the new book big game. I'm halfway through it fantastic. If you love the NFL, if you wanna study on its cultural impact its economic impact and a lot of great stories about people, you know, and see in the sky box every game. You watch read the book and Eric Winston who is the president third-term to your term each of the National Football League players association. Eric, and Mark it's great to have you are. There you go. Right. You're the NFL PA equivalent of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. That's a nice thing to say. So I want to talk about the NFL and socialism because it seems to me Markley a bitch. The NFL is the most gaudy American representation of socialism for billionaires imaginable. Yeah. I mean, it's g understand what I'm talking. Oh, explain. But basically what you're saying is that there are these incredibly no high numbers of billions of dollars of profits coming every year sixty percent of which comes from great broadcast companies like see CBS, and these thirty two owners all billionaires, basically, you know, while competing in some ways for revenue certainly on the field just pull all this money and share it every year, and they all get equally not rich because some people are richer than others, but they make equally tons of money every year from this large pool, mainly broadcast money and have organized the league and its draft picks and everything about the week are lifted. Absolutely. It is. Yes. No. And they treat not stomped on the week are any given. Are depleted or given less Favier adequately. Yes theory. Yes. It is built to promote parody. No dynasties teams. You know, roughly, you know, just basically getting better and getting worse at around equal amounts of time. So Eric I want because dismiss was on our show many many months ago, but I I want anyone who cares about the NFL. If you're listening to take out take a special, obviously, you do your keyed in on this topic. I want you to remind our audience. What is so vitally important to any player in the league about staying on the roster and the number of years they need to stay on the roster in order to achieve long term benefits from the NFL as negotiated by the players. Yeah. You need three credits seasons. So what does that mean? So that means that you're on the active roster for three games during the season. Okay. Right. That's fifty three number. Right. Right. Right. So if you can get fifty three on your third year, and you made four games, you know, you may three games that you got your pension, right active. Yeah. Fifty three not forty five. Okay. All right. So right. So so that number is sort of is embedded in the minds of players. Who are let's say, let's say you because we talked on the the main show Mark about if you're a fourth round draft choice if you're a fourth or fifth or sixth round draft choice. You're probably doing a lot of punt and kickoff coverage and you're trying to distinguish yourself. There is you're you're a second or third player behind the linebacker, the cornerback or whatever. And you gotta stay on that you've tally is basically tested every time. You step on the field. Right. Without a doubt. You're always it. It's not just the fourth round guy. This game is I think people like it in and drawn to it. Because you're getting you're always proven yourself. There's so little opportunity we think about only having sixteen games. You'll look at basketball eighty two games. Baseball hundred sixty two games. I've all ready to games, you have all these every other sport has so many games here. The chances are so finite. And then your time on the field is even more. Tonight that you've tried to distinguish yourself, and we always say your films, your resume your film is your resume and if you're in and you're only as good as your last game. Right. So that's what people are gonna remember. That's what people are going to see. And I've been told an Eric. I really love your praises all of this. The one of the hardest things about sticking in league is not just your talent level because the talent level is very high and you have to maintain it. But you have to maintain it under a certain and very particular kind of pressure knowing that on that sideline. While you're on the field. There are at least two guys who are instantly ready to take you take your spot at any moment without a doubt. I mean, and and operating with that pressure shares heart for some guys, right? Oh, without a doubt. I mean, I think anything especially if you went to a competitive college. It was the same way. And then coming into the league. Now, the the talent gap is even smaller, right? The difference between the fifty second fifty third guy and the tenth guy is hardly anything, right, Mark. And I both know people would like our jobs. That's true. Yeah. But we're not staring at the guy who or gal who wants our job right next to us. That's because you guys got guaranteed. No. No. But we are staring at the. Anywhere. No, it's true. That's different. That is different. I mean, it's true. Moats jobs better is not and what's more amazing than that is the guy. That's on the field is willing to help the guy. That's off the field. Get on the field. Right. It's it's really a brotherhood. It is I had a guy a tackle who has a tenure vet when I came in the league and was willing to take me under his wing knowing that there was a chance that even even though he played left and I played right? I could still inadvertently right? Move him off the roster. And that moment I've done the same thing. And that moment after a game when you see players across the field and lie hug and hold onto each other. That always kind of is a important signal to me about common respect and understanding that we could be playing on the same team. But whatever you're on the field. I'm on the field. Mad respect. Absolutely. There's such a mutual respect that goes on in those in the sport. And the other thing too is I love to watch the handshake after the hockey playoffs. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Right. Because. You like you said it's that mutual respect of two guys to professionals that fought it out as long as the clock said the fight it out, and whatever the scoreboard is. It is right and we'll regroup. But after that game, there's a level of respect that's paid to each other that you're not going to see a lot of other place. Everybody loves that tradition. Just watching. I'm surprised other sports. Just haven't just copied it because it is if you're an NHL fan of any level watch any playoff game. And you see that at the seventh or fifth exciting game. Never turn off the tee. Now if that's like on high. So we we have to get to this other part, which is the most important part. Especially the whole reason I created in the first place, which is three threshold questions. So we'll go and sequence Mark. And then Eric all time favorite movie. Most influential book in your life long driver long flight, what music John RA or lists are artists. Are you most likely to listen to? Oh, wow. Okay. Thirty one to one of your favorite movies or your all time favorite movie, book and music godfather, movie godfather to actually say goodbye to go with them. It's going to sound a little strange, but on writing well sort of a trade book by Williams inser every writer should read it once a year. Release. I say I do, but I used to and what was the third one with a music. So you're long fighter or long drive. What are you most likely? Listen to just some kind of classic girl turned into rock station. If there's some kind of your I'm on your phone or something you got something for yourself. It's it's it's all rocker sixties. Rocker nut sixties were out. But maybe like seventies eighties rock, okay. Or some kind of alternation kind of thing serious link for me, it would be no country for old men. Yeah. Love that Coen brothers. Love of just that whole the writing a few good men's also one be right there. Friday night lights for me is that seminal book growing up in Midland, Texas from Midland Odessa. Permian was arrival was sort of just that that set the stage for everything that I was trying to get to for me. And then I'm not much of a music guy. So I'll just say some soft rock, Tom, petty, except etc. Would be great. It would be horrified that he's in the software category. It would probably be a bit of a bummer. But my first job in journalism was as a police reporter in Manila, Texas. Wow. My third job was in Houston, Texas, and I went to Midland and I remember being astonished, and we're gonna go of a little bit over on this going to Odessa Permian and seeing the stadium route with a high school football team had a stadium. California. We had no stadium thousand people by the eighties. Right. That was went to see it in the it's bigger now, I have suspect and there's lots of stadium. But I the idea the concept of a stadium for a high school football team. Absolutely. All circuits. Circuits? Yeah. If and that Friday night lights thing is very real in Ohio, Florida, Texas, these enormous football states, they'll tremendous number of players who land in the league from California. But California doesn't have that sort of right? Underlying Mo-jo about stadia and like little Greek gods were creating before very is. By the way, if that stadium in Texas was in San Diego right now, we'd have an NFL. Well, the one that they have in that other place north of San Diego doesn't fill on really which is a testament to the mistake that the NFL. Made. But that things to happen to franchise. I mean, the players should have good things happen to them. But I could not agree with you, more gentlemen. Thanks so much. Take speciale. New episodes of the takeout or available Friday mornings wherever you get your podcasts. The takeout is produced by Arden foreign Kateyana crescendo and Jamie Benson CBS end production. By Alexander men layer guile and Eric SU sonnet follow us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram, at takeout podcast. That's at takeout podcast and for more, visit takeout podcast dot com. The takeout is a production of CBS News Radio.

NFL Mark it Eric CBS Texas CBS football Eric Winston San Midland Markley California Garrett San Diego Franklin Delano Roosevelt basketball chief national correspondent president Eric SU
Sean Zinsmeister on Product Marketing from West to East

Marketing Over Coffee

27:55 min | Last month

Sean Zinsmeister on Product Marketing from West to East

"Hey. Just before we get rolling today marketers, make sure you scratch reserving your ticket to inbound twenty twenty off your to do list. The fully immersive digital experience takes place at twenty second and twenty third learn here and inspire what's next at www dot inbound dot com slash register grab your forty nine dollars powerhouse pass with code large coffee. This is marketing over coffee with Christopher Penn and John. Good morning, welcome to marketing over coffee I'm John Wall today we have sean since Meisters back with us. We haven't had him on and while and he's been through a bunch of adventures. So Sean, thanks for joining us today. It was my pleasure. I knew the only reason that you have me on sometimes as a poor man's Chris Penn.. No. No. This is. The thing is you are are Silicon Valley. Like we have not gone that route you've been living in Bay area. For the past five or six years at least right how long that's right now. So we've been living there since two thousand eleven and we just moved back to the bay stay. So from Bay area to Baystate, we're back in Massachusetts. We just moved to the south shore. which is a whole nother long crazy story that. I want to into that too but just to catch everybody up since you were last on here. We were doing stack and flow, and you went over to thought spot. So what's going on at thoughts about what are you doing I thought spot is. In a good market right now. I think that if anything is going to be continued to be in vogue it state in analytics right now I think that. A lot of businesses are not gonNA survive the covert wave but data analytics is probably GonNa get increased investment and not less so and so you know we're seeing a lot of interesting use cases continue to bubble up as people are trying to. figure out more business agility they're all trying to move fast with data and. Yeah. At the other big thing is like what's old is new again, kind of feels like a cloud is hot again. So this has been like what's forcing the issue is these mackerel things Cova and you didn't have a cloud strategy before you. Have to have one now bright and so lots of lots of interesting things happening around cloud analytics and AI and. kind of pushed the boundaries of what we're doing with search, and so it's a fascinating place to be and I've been leading product marketing there for now almost two and a half years now feels like a lifetime but. Yeah it's been raining. So take us back then. So when everything started to lockdown in March now were you already thinking about bailing out of the bay area that happened or was this kind of lockdown thing what made it all happen? I think if you talk to my wife, she probably would say that we bring in she probably would bring it up every year because I used to come back to the south shore, which is where my wife actually was grew up. We probably do it every summer. We have the same kind of argument when we when are we gonNA leave the bay when we leave the area I think that there was a few things push me number one I think that Cova did really made family my family's on the east coast. We don't have any. We didn't have any family in California. Kovin made everybody feel even further away and I think that we really sort of looked at it and was like, okay like number one priority really needs to be family. It's really really hard. Especially, if you have kids right now, I mean the the empathy goes out to everybody. That's you know to work at home parents with kids and everything else like it's a, it's a lot of juggle. And I think the other was just when thought spots said, hey, you can work from anywhere. What does that mean I kind of looked at my career and said, listen most of my team is remote and they're they're they're kicking tale right now and I really couldn't afford anything in the Bay Area I looked. Like the real estate market is insane right now, everybody is moving out of cities and buying houses, and while it's interesting if you read the reports in the bay area right now Wall Street journalists a really interesting article on this. The rents are actually they have plummeted by about ten percent. So you are seeing some depreciation in rents. However, it is even more bloodthirsty on the home-buying front with incredibly credibly aggressive bids and people are pretty much going after whatever they can to buy homes. Right now because everybody wants more room because everybody's working from home and I think that when we looked at Massachusetts was family was being able to get more space in your money just goes a lot a lot further and being able to also look at it and be like you know, how are we going to get into this market right now but even Bassett's Worried because like you know I'm always late to these things. Even, though you're the bay area, you feel like you're on the forefront, but we're always late and we just kind of looked at it to the market pulled the trigger and I'm really glad that we did because when we talked to our real estate person, you know they did about two hundred and eight deals or something like that last month and this. Month, small real say firm to their on slated to about three, hundred ninety, and so the real estate market is on fire right now. So lots of lots of people moving if you're in the moving business right now I mean businesses pretty good. So yeah, that's interesting. So downtown San, Francisco took the hit, but actually more action out in mountain view Sunnyvale. been over there yeah mountain view. Sunnyvale. The other big thing is a lot of people moving out to like Sacramento where they're trying to find where areas where are still more affordable by California terms. Obviously. If you're looking in the Marin or the North Bay area, it's super expensive. You get further down into the valley, get super expenses, but you know, and as soon as you go south of Cupertino and things like that, it's like you're kind of just been. You might as well move to San Diego. Cal Far. Helping you're going to go. Talk to different people with different opinions but I think a lot of people are taking this advantage of some of the big companies like Google. Twitter I think has an official work from anywhere permanently policy. A few of the other big tech companies have adopted this and I, think people look at that and they're very willing to make the trade off and say, Hey, I'm going to take a bit. Of Deflation in my my salary to move to a more affordable place and I think there are lots of stories that are coming out like that. Now, my theory is that we're just GONNA, it'll be a cycle like anything else right like I. Don't think that the bay area is going to suffer too much. They'll be a whole new generation of people that I'm sure move into the city especially once. The Kovic stuff becomes a little bit more pragmatic. You know there's there's not going to be something that makes this thing go away. Like what is our fearless leader says he says, Oh, it's just going to go away. It's not going to go away. And you and I talked about this last time I actually think that one of the trends that we're seeing this this is more than likely just happens again, and so I think it's another reason that people are just kind of like how do we make this work from home thing really work and how to companies see it and everybody's productivity is up I mean they've been talking about this since the days where they referring to it as John. Used to write columns for PCMAG about telework right Only, the government still use is that words. You know they were slow to catch up to the lexicon but I think what people are realizing is that because the there's no boundaries for people and people are just working harder than ever, and so I think a lot of people are realizing the capabilities that companies have. If their productivity is up and I think it's also the it's a smart model too because you're kind of letting people also help solve some of their own problems to that accompanies is never going to be able to do I mean a company can't buy a house for every single point. but what can they do? They can make it easier for them to become more mobile an offer incentive plans to do. So you know something that thoughts bought just rolled out is a partnership with CARE DOT COM to people can get extra help for those those parents that are trying to figure out flex time because the this is the key right that's the schools being closed is probably the biggest conundrum. My wife and I are a little bit fortunate because our son is almost he'll be three in November. So he's still got a little bit before us. You know we have to think about PRE-K and we're hoping that the timing works out but you know people who have kids at home like they need extra help and trying to move to flex hours. It's it's really really hard. You're probably seeing a lot of that but I think this is all a combining effect. Really is about all this stuff that's happening. It's crazy right now. There's a lot going on, and so we have two fronts that I wanna hit. We WanNa talk about becoming more productive at home and teams working at home and then account based management too. But before we get into that, we wanNA thank net suite by Oracle for supporting marketing over coffee. If you're a business owner, you don't need us to tell you the running a business tough, but you might be making it harder on yourself. The necessary don't let quickbooks and spreadsheets slow you down anymore. 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I t. e. dot com slash coffee, and we thank them for their support of the show. Where do you want you start with ABM or with with what you're doing with your team? What's? What's on your mind right now? Well, I think. There's two. I. Could Probably Talk About Work Productivity all day. And actually our friends at Asana I saw just filed for direct listing. So that's pretty exciting young fantastic bunch of really interesting new cloud partners that are filing right now. The A snowflake s one SEC filing hot off the press that's another one to watch. Asana was one, and then I think there was a couple of others but it's a really interesting market right now is to watch some of these players in the cloud. Right is at the center of. About people thinking about where they want to centralize their data. and. Also, just how to make their teams more productive and trying to navigate this work from home experience. So I think it's Cloud and productivity kind of go hand in hand you know. I think one of the things that my team are toolbox is pretty simple these days John it's Asana Zoom old-fashioned telephone and slack are probably the main ones and email and then the Google Google. Productivity Suite. and. I kind of feel like Google, slides just. So ahead of its time, especially, if you're a product marketer, there's just no better way to collaborate on a story with somebody. Then what Google offers you I'm I'm sure that you know we're powerpoint in the slide and the cloud is great. But I just honestly like I think that once we all started doing this and I've done huge kickoff events that we've had we've got tons of presenters and then trying to compile all that into a central location without Google. Science. Crazy town just total down. That's our kit now. Do. You always use comments on that. It's kind of what's The workflow you've got you know one of the comes up with the first cut and then it runs. How does it work? Usually if we have a product kickoff did last month where there's tons of different presenters from all over the different orbs will create one centralized template for everybody, and then what we ask everybody to do is copy all their content in, and then we have because there's I have multiple product marketers who are going to work on decks and design and things like that will then move those offline so we can actually do the. design, do that share with them, and then like the main master template almost axes your production environment. So kind of things go into Dev design and then once they go into prod, you put the slides back into their and those and those are final, and you can kind of start to see the story build. The problem is that you get so many lookie Loos but like people start to see the design but like you know east people don't know what they're looking at when they're looking at like a half finished piece of work. Any creative can totally empathize with that. We're just like hang on a second like. This is just a bunch of blue boxes, but we're actually GONNA put some some artwork and story into this gives us a chance to take your. Call Information architect, and make it work. It's been interesting to sort of have the ability to have that type of governance and permissions because the transparency is important to I've started to open up our Asana environment more and more to the rest of the company. Now that there's anything to hide, it's just like do you know what you're going to be looking at but? If you want to see some of these main projects. Then by all means, you can go and see like all the dirty details but most people will probably get bored the granularity of it, but it's super useful for us. So it's that type of stuff and then obviously like with that, there's different. Swim. Lanes for communication slack is great for short bursts ad hoc, communications. But when it comes to project communications, all that goes into Asada which is nice to have that centralized hub for where we're stuff actually gets done. Yes. So You keep the communications on the project items like as certainly for example, a slide deck you'd be like Okay George you need to get yours done by Thursday or here's a paragraph that needs to go on your deck. Like searching slack is just I. Don't know why it just doesn't work for me. Saw The that's the number one problem with that and why I would lean to Asana for that is that John Lewis. It does, and I think that if you probably had a product manager from slack listening to imagine that search is probably something that they get asked about quite a bit. Guess but bet it is. Because it's hard, it's like I. Mean it's it is pretty much one big twitter stream and I can't tell you some of the challenges that I have with slack and some of the new. Developments they've made have been helpful but. It's kind of like we call it like yet another slack channel, right? It's like we're GonNa just have yet another slack channel, and then like you know somebody will make a comment and I'm like I don't know where the heck this thing is like I have no idea as so you end up doubling back to that person to ask and my point to the team here is like folks what you're doing is creating an incredible amount of overhead and you're spending more time on administrative overhead trying to find this stuff because of communications productivity is just getting lost like years spending the time trying to track things down trying to ask the right person for the right thing and like it just. and. It's here and it's on the project. It's tag. It's there if it's a comment that specifically in a working dockets right there. You can't waste time on a on a wild goose chase. It doesn't doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Well, and win was slacked is that we can't lose say this. What makes us so mazing is it's not that it's got all the project items. It's that for every thirty items slack chat that's like six hundred emails that have gone away. It just makes all that stuff disappear, which is the real value of it. It's it's completely ephemeral though, and that's what makes it like twitter once the river has gone down like, do you ever how far back do you see like? An channel. How far back do you really go is an employee to catch. You might give a quick. Scroll through things and maybe tap a few things. But chances are you've missed way more content like if you go on vacation for a week I mean you you don't catch up now you're not gonNA catch up i. mean you probably just like out a glance but that's what's been awesome like the Asana notifications are probably where I feel like I stay. In tune with my team, the most and that's a useful thing slack because it pains me and I can just see quick things on progress. Okay. Maybe somebody got stuck here. Let's we can jump in here but most of the time it's just for me to just have the transparency and other team members just kind of see this stuff going back and fortune. when you make click, it's a it's a really powerful thing. Yeah. When well, we can talk about how that maps to ABM and and the big thing is future. Looking stuff you know Asana is always looking at the future whereas there's no future for with slack before we jump into that we WANNA. Thank linked in marketing solutions for their support of marketing over coffee. Let's pretend for a moment you're about to launch a campaign tested. Well, your entire team is happy everything's going according to plan except for that one thought in the back of your head, how do I ensure the people I want to target will be in the mindset to receive my message and the answer is linked in because when you? 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We offer tools for brand building and lead generation, not only target and reach a professional audience down to their job title company name and location but you can engage people you already know based on who's visited your site or who you've contacted in the past. You can even customize your campaign based on the action you want your customers to take an. Objective achieve doing business on linked in the world's largest professional network can help you reach your marketing goals and here's the deal for marketing. Over coffee listeners you can do business where businesses done get a one hundred dollar advertising credit towards your first linked didn't campaign does it Lincoln? Dot Com slash see that's linked in dot com slash M. O. terms and conditions apply and we thank them for their support of the show. We've got to I have to mention trust insights has are maximizing your linked in profile. Put a link to that in the show notes. If you want to take advantage of that Chris Katie did a bunch of research as far as what the Lincoln Algorithm is looking for, and so you can match yourself to that. So you can jump ahead of the crowd and make things happen for yourself. It's a great way to get on board with that so and again, thanks linked in for their support of the show. We wanted to talk about ABM because there's been a bunch of stuff on account based management front selling to whole accounts I think one of the things that. Got Me that I hadn't thought about is just the fact that so many of these abm, tools are using the IP address of the company headquarters. So you kind of know that the traffic is coming from these people, but now everybody's working from home. So that's totally shot. Now, of course, we're all being tracked everywhere all the time. So maybe this is not as big a deal as I thought but what other ABM stuff have you been seeing and what would spend on your mind as you've been watching that stuff? Yeah I mean it's kind of a part of a broader conversation too because I think that you have to look at how the role of the marketer is. quickly, evolving and transforming right now it's like big events and trade shows are out and I don't know when they're coming back and so you have dislike evolutionary things are moving more online to these virtual events and so there's a lot happening there on that front. But when it comes to the company's management is really about how are you creating personalized experiences and how do you create it scale and I'll just Throw. Just a bunch of jargon issue but like with one of the ways that like we found this helpful is that you know we used to do these executive briefings and so we've moved those virtual and so what this means is that we've been able to create micro sites with different videos that a account that are personalized for them to talk about roadmap technical architecture. Corporate strategy from dot spot things like that. That are all directed towards the needs of whatever business that we're talking to. You know this could be verizon could be capital. One could be Friday of different accounts. That's one kind of version of these types of micro sites, and then we actually have a hub that we can then drive traffic to, and there are great for demand Gen. Opening up expansion opportunities as well. The other has been creating these personalized websites of how we actually what is your company data look like and thought spot and having a variety of use cases that are all there because the easiest way for us to kind of built champions is to say, Hey, this is and this is all within the firewall of a company by the way. No this is not publicly exposed data or content. It's all password protected and we work closely with our champions to kind of roll these things out but it's great if you're starting with the marketing use case for example, and you can say, Hey, you know here. Mrs CMO This is how the marketing team is using this. We should probably maybe bring this to the Sierra and see what they can do sales productivity and having those digital properties has been super helpful. The other things that I've seen on the event front, you know the the corporate marketing team here is pretty incredible. They have these kinds of thoughts about to you personalized events that they started to do, which could be mixtures of just workshops. The virtual wine tasting that they've done are pretty awesome. I've never seen something more creative, but they're very cool. They actually are shipping bottles of wine to. Different and then having zoom roundtables and the feedback is when they're incredibly fun. It just great way to build rapport. We do a lot of this with snowflake and some of our other partners it's really been trying to figure out like how do you take these experiences and then the key here with any ABM strategy for us has been the SEGMENTATION, and so we've now looked at our sort. Of Top customers and we've built and we kind of split our sales Oregon too. So we have selecting and then we have an enterprise team. The select team is really our top ten accounts. Those are all expansion which makes sense for a couple reasons. It's a great way for you to hone energy and productivity to know that hey, we're only gonNA make customized content if you're a select account. It's not that we won't do it for enterprise, but they'll get at least prioritization special treatment and from a pipe John Standpoint I mean if you're a rep that's got, you may have heard there's like named accounts is probably a more traditional way to say it. But for us, it's select accounts. They don't have to focus on PG for you know tens of different accounts. They can say, okay, you know if my account is Nestle, then all I have to focus on is how to grow this account until like the next big lighthouse account, and through that, we'll do a number of different things between personalized roadmap showcases and innovation showcases and and different community events, and so a lot of it is again, you know the heart of any good ABM strategy is coming down to segmentation and you know they're using a ton of cool stuff. John. On the technology side I'll tell you what's hot right now is company to watch qualified is doing some really cool stuff. They use that that's kind of. I'm going to get the product marketing. Wrong. So they won't to mad at me but the their they offer a lot of interactive. Live chat where they can actually see the people and how they're interacting with content on the website and then reps can kinda jump in I'm so really kind of bringing that virtue allies storefront. They've really I've never seen anybody do it as well as they can and the reps rave about it. The transparency and data were getting through them. We're like you know you because things for us are broken down by by sales stages. You can see the stuff and they get alerts to say, Oh, you know a blank this stages is now on the website looking at this, and then somebody can kind of jump in and ask how can I be helpful point them in the right direction. And there's a number of other tools they've got that. made the stack. Pretty important for us. You know they're using six cents on the predictive side and for some of the. Intent gatherings and things like that. But it's really been a big portfolio. They brought it together. But at the heart of it, it's it's the segmentation. You don't get anywhere without having the alignment with the field and we're we're super lucky that just be really really in lockstep with where they want to go and. where the money is. That's cool. Okay. Now, how about during this time we've had? A chance to jump back into all kinds of media and stuff what have you got on books, music movies, anything you've been checking out recently that you can recommend to everybody are a couple of things. So everybody knows I'm a big podcast junkie and so I've been consuming a lot on the podcast front. Things in particular that I'm listening to. I'm actually been trying to stay away from news. My News Diet is pretty thin. I got like the Kito Diet of news right now. I it's too much like I get enough from social media. My big thing is I just finished just this Super Gigi. I just finished the seven seasons of the clone wars on Disney plus which is really Phenomenal it's really well done. It's like it's it's great. The animations great. If you're a star wars fan superfund, the episodes are also like you know a perfect kind of like twenty two minute type of thing. So I know I can get in there before my son calls from the other. That's that's so much of the media consumption right now to be able to do the ten twenty minutes tennis stuff because you squeeze it in totally one of his favorite shows is actually this program that I bought. This is one of our tricks that. We get we drove across the country in seven days and he's a total trooper. We'll get into all the hacks that we had to how to do that with a two year old some other time. It's a bit of Mad Max just like adventure doing it in the pandemic makes it twice as fun. But for him he loves US BBC. Show called Sarah and duck and it's great. It's it's super very caffeinated, which is by by a big pet peeve about. The over bombarding of the senses that a lot of these cartoons have like spongebob is just like it's like, oh my gosh, this thing is it's so loud. It's really well done but the the episode genre or they're like seven minutes long they're six seven minutes and so like you know it's great for him to just kind of be like listen you know we're pretty light on the IPAD, but it's like, Hey, if we need twenty minutes to get dinner ready and he can watch just a couple of these episodes and that's a great thing. It's not one of these this prolonged. Those bite sized content is really good but. No that's kind of been been my media diet in terms of just you know I've been reading mostly blogs and a lot of my stuff has been so consumed with work that I wish I had even more fun times. But yeah, that's that's that's my main hits. Ya I think product management moving a two year old I. Think you're is a pretty full I think we're good with with your spare time. So you you're not a golfer me. Exactly exactly. That sounds no people want to catch up with you. What's the best social account or where should folks reach out to you? Well, I'm proud that I own at least the first three to five pages on google, Google Shawn's mice, or you can probably find me pretty easily. Ask meister on twitter feel free also just connected me on Lincoln of you're interested in product marketing interested about what we're doing. It thought spot. Sean Smicer connect with me over there and Happy happy to chat. That sounds great. Yeah. We'll have all that stuff in the show notes. So people can click through and you can sign up for the marketing over coffee newsletter powered by digital will will push out links to you. I gotTa do a newsletter I'm like two weeks late on the newsletter I have to get on the ball on that. So with that that'll do it for this week about until next week enjoy coffee enjoy the coffee. You've been listening to marketing over Coffee Christopher Penn locks at Christopher. SPN Dot Com read more from John J. J W, fifty one fifty dot com. The marketing over coffee theme song is called Mellow G by funk masters and you can find it musicality for Matviyenko. The link in our show notes.

Google Bay area John Twitter Christopher Penn ABM Mark It Sean Smicer Massachusetts California Cova Silicon Valley AI Sunnyvale Cupertino Oracle Sacramento John Wall
Nobel perspectives: Finn Kydland

Monocle 24: The Bulletin with UBS

20:12 min | 1 year ago

Nobel perspectives: Finn Kydland

"Uh? Hello. And welcome to the bulletin with Monaco twenty four each week. We hear from the sharpest minds and freshest is in the world of finance taking on the numbers in the hype and getting to the heart of the big issues of the day. If you're a regular listener to this program. Indeed, if you choosing in this time last week, you'll be well aware that UBS interested in addressing the big questions that shape the world to help us to them. They've been seeking out a number of Nobel laureates in the economic sciences to ask them to share insights and discuss their research this week. We're hearing from another such eminent mind fin kid land winner of the twenty four Nobel prize for his work on the time consistency of economic policy and the driving forces behind business cycles. Finn is sitting down with us on the bulletin with UBS today to talk about the hat and to discuss the regulation of monetary policy. His first nation with exploring the application of his theories in interdisciplinary fields. And we trust plenty more. Besides. Fin Kilonzo welcome to the program. I wonder in terms of if we look big questions big policy questions. It seems to me that there's not a tremendous amount of reassurance outlet currently that governments presidents all particularly invested in long-term strategic thinking I wanted you think that's fair observation, and if not what needs to be done, or what could be done to address that short termism in this political classes, I think that's correct. But I think it varies depending on what what part of the world you're talking about. So in the past couple of years quite a bit of uncertainty has been introduced by the United States. I think. Nothing much has changed in Scandinavian countries. My home country, no way, I think is fairly stable politically. Trustworthy. So and probably the same in Sweden. And then Mark it's not too surprising. From theoretical standpoint. That short termism sometimes arises, it's kind of what would predict. After discovered the principle that optimal government policies, timing consistent. It's sort of what you suspect will happen in countries. You suspect it would happen in countries with weak. But institutions it's a bit surprising may be that the United States would be the country embarking on. Issues like trade restrictions at cetera. Because that's a perfect example of short termism. Most economists agree that in the long run trade across nations is is beneficial to all nations. And so I kind of regard this short termism in in in the United States as as sort of naive. Maybe suggesting that whoever came up with it is. Either has not very trustworthy advisors or or he himself as they themselves may be if the if they hold party is in agreement that there. They haven't really thought through. They don't have the ability to think of the long run implications. I guess you've written and spoken extensively before about why given that backdrop the describe their force. It's very important to have central Bank independence, for example. And I guess if you have those kinds of governance structures that do sit without the political ecosystem largely without it that demonstrates the efficacy of that doesn't it? It shows how you can mitigate against some short termism. Is that enough though? I mean, you mentioned how we look to the US in the last couple of years. It does seem to go against so much of the received wisdom if you like about trade or about how to conduct day, stay politics. Do do you think sort of more needs to be done? Is it the job of economists like yourself to say, well, this doesn't seem very sensible? I think we readily point out what the issues are all the problems are. It's not so easy to. Come up with a long term solution. I mean the. The example of independent settle Bank. That has worked very well in the countries that can maintain that institution. It's much harder to think. Of a way, you could commit to good future fiscal policy or to goods, a long run fiscal policy and admittedly fiscal policy for for the long run as to be more important than monetary policy. So I sometimes half jokingly suggests that if some hotshot young economists can come up with a solution to the commitment problem, and now guess to Monte policy, an independent central Bank. If someone can come up with a solution in fiscal arena. Thirty years later is likely to stand in front of the king of Sweden and except an important price. I mean that saying that just suggest how important that this year is and how potentially damaging it can be a nation not to be able to do. So what indeed I guess how difficult days to come up with such a solution because we be there already. So at the risk of in a sense getting you to repeat yourself. How do you best commit people? Not just undertake good policy and good strategic thinking but to adhere to it going forwards. I mean is there a secret to doing that? Or is it just about thinking strategically being interested being inquisitive talking to the right people there on shortcuts presumably, I'm not aware of any shortcuts. It helps to have good institutions maybe the right mentality for some reason. And I can't I can't really point to why work. So well. No, no way occasionally every four year could be changing and ministration from the more leftist labor party being the major player to coalition of something to write oriented parties. You don't notice any difference? All know each and seem to maybe I'm overstating that. But all know region seem to agree on the most major issues, and that provides for a certain amount of trust and more importantly ability to predict the future, which is very important for long run growth. The main private economy decisions resulted in long run growth, they have to do with activities research and development development of new products new ways of making things they can be costly and uncertain come as they take place and then returns come five ten years into the future spread over that period. Similarly with building new productive capacity to take advantage of new technologies also very costly activities with return. Coming over a period of ten or even sometimes more. If it's a big factory into the future. But but those future returns to can be inference very much by by the government by the tax Arment by the regulatory environment. And if these players, the investors, let's say the decision makers, I word about the possibility of policy in the future that will ruin their calculations. They're more likely to be hesitant to carry out those decisions and some as a result. The nation as a whole will suffer in the sense of being poor than their potential. And so this is clearly problem. A bigger problem in some areas of the world like Latin America is notorious many countries in Latin America are notorious for short term policies will willing to do seeing. Trade restrictions for the central government interfering in the central banks behavior at cetera. Can even see differences across neighboring countries. Like, politically chilies seems to work significantly better than the neighbor Argentina so one asks oneself, what's the secret? But there's no easy solution to my mind in data. I wanted to just to change tack slightly about I guess sort of interdisciplinary approach, and I was talking with another noble laureate. Michael Spence of recently. And he was talking about how if you're looking at creative and innovative solutions to these kind of very deep-rooted problems that you've been talking about the most interesting findings can happen where where disciplines me another something you've talked about before, of course. And I think am I right in thinking you described yourself once as an accidental economists almost so given that the right man to us. Why do you think is it because there's fresh insights or there's a spark that comes when maybe two complementary non complementary. Disciplines sort of crash into each other. What why is an important thing even for columnists to to think about so I have been in environments inhabited by many disciplines, most of my life at the business school in in baragan where I got my start. But also county Mellon University is maybe one of the foremost examples of the benefits of interdisciplinary, we're into displinary thinking, for example, most of the communists that kinda game out on the house in the business school, and that means that they can easily direct with people in counting or marketing or even operations research. My first couple of papers where examples of braces research after goals, at least to me it generates a certain amount. Dynamism that is harder to repeat if it's pure. Let's say economics department where people have much more narrow interests and either they don't care or then on feeling neat to look at why the perspectives in the past few years, I've had the opportunity to go to cover attended by scientists from different areas, for example, before this trip bide just came back from a trip to China in Shanghai, where they managed to get twenty six Nobel laureates together in one conference three of them were economist, the others where from physics chemistry medicine, and so on we were all expected to sit through everyone's talks, and it's very interesting the similar conference that takes place. In in Vietnam, every of the year and similarly very interesting, so I've great respectful scientific findings in other areas. For example, if people from other feels say that worsening of the climate is a real danger. I take them seriously. Or if laureate tells me that the tag Innis towards GMO's is completely misplaced. There's no scientific basis for it. Then this is actually Laura two hundred thirty Lawrence or something like that sign onto to the notion that GMO's that perfectly safe E calls it a crime against humanity to ban them, which is the case in in some areas of the will the bottom line is being in an environment where you can think about wider implications. Of in some cases, findings that you have come up with yourself. But you discover the broad applications, the timing consistency issue. I see everywhere once you went to realize that problem. The problem, especially becomes serious. If we're talking about incentives to accumulate something over time accumulate physical, capital, accumulate human, capital accumulates a government debt by government bonds, then temptation will arise. Well, once it's been done than if the government perceives some crisis, which is seems to be for governments to do. And then then they can turn around and trying to surprise people by taxing them in the case of government bonds, this what left in American countries have done multiple times. You issue government debt that fixed nominee interest rate, and then you run hyperinflation, and I've been facing reduces the real value of that that virtually zero. I mean, that's that's. One way to -ssume that you cannot do that over and over again because people learn in they they realize this is a possibility. And once you lose your credibility is to rebuild it. And that's a problem, for example, Argentina these days. There's a new administration run by mockery. Eight mockery took over from Christina Keshlaf, an under Christina was clearly a very short term oriented person mockery is trying to institute more reasonable policies. But because of that the checkered past is very difficult to suddenly turn around and try to do something reasonable for the long run for one thing to have to have the patience to wait for the good outcomes. That would not come in monthly two. Vote is often not the most patient bunch. I want to complete change of tack. I I've seen numbers of portraits of Yuna films of you. And it's always almost inevitably whether it's in your office or elsewhere guitar in the background. And I'm writing thinking your blues fan is this right? I just wanted. It's interesting. I guess for our listeners to get a sense of just know fan on his downtime. But what does that give you if you if you lose yourself in immediate playing going to going to gigs? Whatever is also useful talked about interdisciplinary challenging your expectations hearing from experts in complete different fields does music give you that is about freedom. Is it escapism? I wonder what does it mean? What does your love music mean? I'm not really a philosopher the sons almost like if lots of. And so I think in general Norwegian kind of down to earth. They don't really think in highfalutin terms practicing guitar taking guitar lessons. Something done for about nine ten years to the extent I can plan. My Tiffany's around the the usual timing get tell lesson which can only be on Thursday or Friday. And now, it's true. I've always been interested in of loved music, even as a as a child. Remember listening to radio Luxembourg where which is where we get to hear the newest tunes the interest in in blues is something that came slowly over time. I would say after I. Was an adult. And once I discovered the blues, it goes back to the roots of of the people, I guess start in the United States. But the Briton was extremely important in that sense. I mean. In Britain, a really really accepted, the blues and became to some extent the forerunners Eric Clapton from sample. As is one of the greatest Bruce guitarists. There is not. I'm kind of selective. I so I do think guitar is king of all instruments. So I don't care so much for blues with horns, this got to be Qatar to even the and the have collected a few guitars couple because they're just great guitars and purely Kucic in nineteen forty tabloid teen Martin and nineteen fifty two Gibson ES three fifty which can be plugged in. It can be played Koos tickly can also be plugged in. Then have to three others that are very good. And then I have some. Medium quality that I happen to buy because I was in some location for long enough that I can't be away for that long without the ghetto. So I was in so career for four weeks, and I bought a guitar there. Then I then brought home, and then that's the Qatar every year for the past five years, I've gone to cut Dr to to teach a course for. Kind of melon. So staying there for eight weeks that's too long to be without the guitar, and I have one permanently stationed in Pittsburgh, where I go to visit the from time to time I want stationed at my mother's house in no way. So in the end, I have eleven guitars. Wow. That's incredible. But if I wasn't I wasn't expecting to be talking about Martin's and Gibson's and mentioning eclipse, but I'm very glad I read it because it's fascinating Finn. Killen? Thank you very much for chatting to us. Thank you telling us about your eleven guitar. Thank you for having me music to the is indeed thanks again to Finn. Bring us to the end of this two hundred twenty second edition of the bulletin with UBS on twenty four to read more from and about Finn kid Lund and discover how Nobel perspective shape, the UBS worldview, UBS dot com and search Nobel perspectives the bulletin, would you be s. On twenty.

United States UBS Finn Sweden Mark it Argentina Nobel prize Fin Kilonzo Latin America Qatar Michael Spence Pittsburgh Vietnam Yuna Koos tickly Martin Christina Keshlaf
***Special Guest Episode on Greek Naval Warfare w/Marc DeSantis***

The History of Ancient Greece

1:19:26 hr | 3 months ago

***Special Guest Episode on Greek Naval Warfare w/Marc DeSantis***

"Hi, I'm Ryan stood and welcome back to the history of ancient Greece. We are taking a break from our regularly scheduled programming for another special guest episode in a series where I converse with classicists and ancient historians. How about either books or articles that they have published their current research interests were just unique classes and topics that they are teaching and exploring further in today's special guest episode. I am joined by military historian Mama Santas. He is the author of Rome Seasons the Trident a book about the rise of Republican Rome's Naval forces as well as over 200 publish scholarly articles that have appeared in a wide range of international Publications, including mhq military history Ancient Warfare military history monthly history of war and ancient history magazine in addition to his historical writings Mark is the author of The memnon wore a series of science fiction novels and he teaches English at Saint Peter's university. Mark's most recent book a naval history of the Peloponnesian War will be the topic at hand today. So without further Ado here is our conversation ancient Greek history is not easy thing to wrap your head around. This is a whole bunch of different phrases terms unknown things. You never knew about it, but how much your readings like right about that much of ancient history in general, but with a degree in history of particular is because they written materials are sparse or if they survive they post date the events that are talking about by centuries. That is the reliability of those sources is open to question that it doesn't mean that it's wrong but it's open to question. I would wish that we had the material that very soon after the advanced and question. So in that regard to cities I think is really wonderful that way in the context of the Peloponnesian War at some point ask me that this was one more to be a good question to start out with okay as in dog Mission okay. We'll start out. So what are your you seem to have strong opinions? I did write the book called A Naval History of the Peloponnesian War. So I have strong opinions that Ryan home. Okay. Yeah, so I'm assuming you think it's just one in continuation of War know. I think you could have a strong. Either side but but I think is just that the Peloponnesian War can be nude as two separate Wars with strong support for that position because there was a peace treaty that came into the 421 for most of it was a true. Well in the war from about that time until roughly 4:13 BC while the identity of the parties H wage that happens is part of where the same would you like? You said? He's treated the complicated one more. I think that the focus of the war shifted to the ionian islands and Asia Minor and that's why I think if Alien War is the best term for it and that's really a different kind of War. So my idea is is that Athenians they fought a war from 431-2421 when they have their piece piece of cake yes, and the Athenians one that and then went on to their various things or misadventure in Sicily, especially which they brought some real grief down upon themselves in other words. Started up again because all of a sudden after the disaster in Sicily Spartans and other televisions saw that they had been least looked vulnerable and that's what encouraged the Spartans to resume the war or against the Athenians. That is the optic actually now had a chance and they started building a Navy to actually take the war two millions at Sea. And that was where they started to the ultra be downhill. Now if you need Empire very strong and it took years before the occasion were finally defeated. But once that war shifted to the Aegean Sea and the ultimately the target became the hell spawn off was the lifeline of Athens Seafood that would bring in from the Black Sea has happened and couldn't support itself the agricultural produce of Attica population. That was much too large for how long clay though. Just not very much arable land not enough arable land and then they they had possibly around five hundred thousand people roundish in Attica at Birth. I'm which which didn't have the proper soil. I would say that the analogy that I would give to Athens in the Peloponnesian War was that of Britain in June first and second world wars. That is it's very wealthy very powerful navy but its population can't be sustained on the amount of food that can be produced in that country back on its own Athens needs food support its population and because of that the Navy is critical to making sure that this the lifeline through the black seat, which is where they were getting the bulk of their imported food was kept open as long as the opinionated could not be challenged. They were safe and immensely powerful when the peloponnesians LED bulbs Spartans managed to attack that Lifeline separate. That's what's going to be doing with Athens in the Peloponnesian War and it was it's a remarkable thing because it was very early on birth. Understood that this was the jugular for Athens or Achilles heel communication, but it took a long long time for them to actually make a very strong conservative move for a number of reasons against the hell spot because we're first in this goes to the beginning of the war the Spartans had a very very limited name. They may develop an aging Fleet. Welcome the ships that were provided to the Collision lead. Wait at the outset of the Peloponnesian War starting 431 were contributed by other states. Yeah. Yep, merrily current which added excellent native an excellent and was a big rival of Athens Corinthians hated the Indians, but the previous excellent the Spartans themselves. Were they long and power that goes without saying this part in the hoplite was considered to be the best top light in ancient Greece. They were the terrorism the battlefield the one thing that you knew about facing the song. Army in battle is that you didn't want to do that and at the right before the war breaks out Pericles of Athens the foremost Statesman in Athens. He he listed this is advantages that the Athenians had these and he signs his part of his strategy. We're not going to give the Spartans the battle and battle that they seek that they craved because if we go up like the Spartans in a in a battle on land hoplite to hoplite they'll win. He just assumes they are going to Triumph in that battle. That's their right to the Spartans no wage. They are very confident that they could win any Land Battle they ever go into because well first the smart help light has been training since childhood to be a warrior this for themselves because there are only true professional Warriors of ancient Greece sense that that's their JobNet it they can do things on the battlefield that others can't as a part-time job. There's. Discipline. They also have the ability to maneuver better than a mob of Artisans and farmers who come out essentially as you know, part-time Asia for the summit right that they have this they are just better perky says we're not going to do that. We are going to treat behind our longwall should let me explain what the walls aren't there's walls around the city of Athens proper. But this also along walls that stretched from Athens to the Prius that that protect like that land that because Athens is actually several miles in about 3 and 1/2 miles Inland from the street to the port of Athens is actually prints. That's where the ships come in. Exactly and that's what the long walls do is is that it makes it impossible for an enemy Army to cut Athens off from the sing, but you're investing happens or investing off. Reyes ancient Greeks each techniques were really nothing like what the later Romans had. So fortifications were virtually impregnable not-for-profit, but virtually impregnable so it could be assumed on a basis of The Limited seats craft of the ancient Greek city-states and that their armies that you had a wall safe generally safe from being overrun. The theme is therefore by building the law walls between Athens down to piraeus which Protected Their Lifeline to the seat foam effectively made themselves into an island. So going back to the analogy with the first and second world wars. You can't a sale Britain without having some sort of ability to cross water Athens remote. It's on land and it's it's actually get to Attica violent because of a lot walls. It had made itself into something of a violent game. We're completely secure behind though as well. He was as long as animated was Superior to anything else. They were going to be able to protect that off the lifeline to the black seed from which they imported food and they could sustain their population without that coming from the Black Sea, they would not be able to feed their population and they would experience time and relatively quickly and eventually starve. I would I do want to point out just for the listeners the walls weren't just wall either they did have like defense like poems and archers like thirteen thousand I think is what the number was according to Pericles. So they like they were heavily defended as well there Siege Warfare did improve a lot over the Peloponnesian War but Athens Georgia by far the most heavily defended and it was basically impenetrable unlike say like platia or DeLeon or something a few of the places that got ransacked from sieges. But yeah dog Going to point out that it wasn't just walls for that protected them as well. They did have their Defenders on the walls. Athens did have a large army and ineffective Army and Pericles even lists these jobs as many pop lights and we have a lot of money happens ideas injection, you know pay for the fleet's and pay for the hoplites. You are very strong. He just didn't see Athens same thing as being in land combat relative to Sparta which once again people were intimidated by the Spartans and therefore the idea of Pericles a strategy. One of those components was do not give them Land Battle that could lose the war in a day for us. That's that's one of the major differences that that you can see in a lot of good like a strategical leaders as level of self-awareness that Pericles had em in like I'm not going to try and turn my weakness into a strength against somebody else. I'm never going to be as good as them in such a short period of time. So I'm going to focus on what I'm good at and exploit my home. Rights and limit my weaknesses and that is correct and Pericles correctly deduced that Athens great strength was it's Navy and vice that he gave to the Athenians now bear in mind when I say the advice offered a serious. It's like anything that is said inside of instead of these huge is that he created that is we can say Pericles said this and that probably there was something very similar said we're hoping but you should have these speaking through the mouth piece of Pericles in the sense that so take it for what it's worth. Apparently. You said we have the money and resources to pay for these fleets got the best sleep Got Talented rowers. No one else is going to be able to challenge us at C because being a superior roller it takes time. You can't just put a box honesty expect them to be truly proficient and you can do that or they're going to be clumsy handling shift. So he says we are we have an advantage over everybody else at C ROM. Do is creep behind our law walls. Don't worry that the Peloponnesian going to come in and burn down our far and burn down. Our houses replace houses will replace Farms with our life know what we can do is because you have this this Mobility you can attack the coastline of the enemy arrogant and do damage to him a plan where we choose and in fact, that's the strategy that came out outside of the war and we called Damian named after the storm king art. The game has the ability of the Athenians to make Naval lay is for just sense. Sometimes as calm on enemies territories was unparalleled and it meant that almost every part of telekinesis was vulnerable to attack because you could actually land troops and took some damage then it would be theoretical but do we know like how like roughly how far into the interior they would have been able to attack not too far. It's Probable that if you were a few miles Inland you considered yourself to be safe. That means if for example, it's a naval raid where they're not planning to land a large expeditionary force that will strike out at Target and then stay for a long time. If if it was an expeditionary Force. Well, then they would actually read the ships and March detail engine in this regard thinking of this is the attack on the city of Sardis in for ninety-eight by the ionian Greeks the beach starships and then marched pretty far inland to attack the city of Sardis, which was the capital of the Sentra. And how for the Empire that could be done. But for the most part these were raised that they would land attack their territory to get out there reached ships and get back on. I would imagine you would need to leave a force to guard such ships and it would have been required a force of people child guard it because and this is again with the difficulty of the source material often, you know, talk about Rate and I'll mention the number of ships that were involved but it really seems that they're almost always just counting the number of triremes that may be attacked and not what is a troop transports horse transports with them and there probably were Landing large number of soldiers because the oarsmen themselves were probably not good going into battle themselves. That is they were not trained as soldiers. They were not hoplites chefs drawn to the lower classes. They were public teachings good oarsman Athenian, but they they were not soldiers would fight and stand up paddle until the end of the war until they were armed at the end of the world will get there right away and then it becomes a different story. But for the the beginning of the world Damien war is that the rower was he rode the hoplite spot and that was a distinction and yeah, they don't really mention. There's only a handful of times. I can think of where the cities mentioned specific transports. Obviously this is silly an expedition and there's horse transports, but it's we know that they existed no gloss. People goes I think so in order to for example order to get the system to bring many hoplites and horses and what-have-you it almost certainly if you're looking to besiege a town you need Soldiers with jerz to go with you and these troop transports and horse transports would have been older triremes that were pass their service life. They were too old for Naval Combat, but they would do well as as a means of conveying troops ashore. We'll Circle back to that cuz I want to have some questions about the triremes. Right? Right. One more thing is that as far as strategy was initially predicated upon the idea that they would actually get to fight this one big battle clobber Athenians and the war would be over they marched into Attica wage job destructive raids on territory there what surprised the Spartans was that the Athenians didn't come out to fight. That is they were attacking their farms and homes and didn't come out to defend them. Idea among the Spartans was that you defended your territory defended your lands failure. If it needs to come forth and battle in defense of their lands was a deep surprise to them and cause our that the Spartans Trump very early did not really intellectually comprehend the kind of war that they were fighting. They didn't understand the kind of the Indians were going to fight off and because of that they didn't have much of a strategy Beyond. Well, let's go and try and defeat the enemy in battle. It took them a long time to figure out how they're actually going to continue on with this conflict. And in fact, the first part of the war the archidamian war, they really felt the pieces toward the end because when the opinions were able were able to offer a naval base, they feel small fortified place at pylos the Athenians tried to eject them and fail they fail to capture pilot and they managed to strand four hundred twenty years. Spartan citizen hoplites on the on the sex area they surrendered which shocked all of Greece because the one thing that started never did was surrender and they did because they had no chance of eggs and sperms then spent the next several years from 4:25 until those actual piece of Nicki as they spent a lot of time just worried that if he is going to execute their citizens they were trying to do anything to get them back reading two cities and kind of being a part of xenophon. I kind of get the sense that the Spartans were extremely naive about what it's going to take to win the work cuz you get like that point and it's like right after the fact that coup and the restoration is restless defending the walls were a little head now, but Aegis was at DES Ali and he came down and and rated the the area and then he got pushed back and then they just need is the ships leaving the piraeus and filled with grain and finally realizes that what they're doing is by rating Atticus fruitless, and it was like it really take off. That long to realize the strategy. Well, I think that there was a lot of muddled thinking on the part of the Spartans as to what it would take to actually win a war against athletes. That is Athens was not outside of the war was not a mainly a land power as far as used to dealing with it was a matter of time power that brought a maritime War when egg is saw the grain Traders or bring food in the Press. He says what is the point of what I'm doing writing Attica, as long as those readers are coming in and you might even say why is it that the Spartans didn't make a move against Iraq immediately to shut down most of their food and it's probably too big an idea for the Spartan because it would have required them to effectively do this. We're we're hoplites wage and power but now we have to build a Navy which he's never done before never had some large enough Navy by the enemy. It's say in order to cut off the food coming from the Black Sea that is probably something that wage. You meet some of them may have grasped but they presumably said well our strength is in land combat crash we can win the war that way. The model thinking is a major part of acidities narrative of how the Spartans fought the War. So for example for twenty-five a person Ambassador, but it was on the way to this part invent one of the messages that was interested was that the Persians were frustrated message from the person great king artaxerxes saying to the Spartans until you can tell me exactly what you want and what you're prepared to do in order to get something from me. I can't help you and what that shows is that the Spartans themselves while they would have liked support. They didn't know what they really wanted to do. How what their strategy was how to fight the war god beyond the war has to be in continued even after they operation shifted to the GM. So 4:13 and afterward the Spartans themselves they were there was a lot of modeled off. Is that. Because they had at least two proposals coming from Persian satrap just to where they're now conduct operations against the Athenians in the Aegean region one was from Joseph released in Virginia where the idea was the rebellion and chios and they were going to fight nyonya supported by the prison sidetracked. The other proposal came from Farm basis another person Sacre. He was the president after. Region just a coronavirus was a satrap of Lydia Western Asia Minor. Well, ultimately the Spartan did not get along with your sacraments at all the to say Travis did not like each other they took care for each other and one of the things that their mind about the the satraps is that the sand traps while they're typically termed as as governors of the Persian Empire on the Saturday is province if you could change within their Saturday, that's how big and powerful the empire was. Is that a portion of it was the strong as a major Kingdom. So just a France had a lot of wealth to throw around so did a phone number Just but when they they have the proposal in front of them, this is roughly 4:13 to decide where with the Athenians suffering terribly outside of inside of the Syracuse is great Harbor and not the whole Expedition is going to come to grief very soon. They decided to go with the proposal for him to sacrifice and fight in Ionia instead of heading straight for the hell spot, which is where all the food was coming from and took him a long time several years before they decided to actually take part of basis up on his offer to Safran. He's very interesting man. Very shrewd very astute. He effectively played this part against the Athenians giving responds just enough money to keep their Fleet and being and battle the Athenians without your side winning outright. The idea was is that if both sides are fighting to exhaustion. The Persian Empire itself is protected if you're sitting these credits how societies the Athenian General with your giving to Socrates this advice and maybe he did give a device but it certainly wage Policy that just happens could not have come up with on his own so they ended up racing a lot of time waiting for just happenes to bring the promised Phoenician Fleet up because most of the Empire's Navy is actually an issue in our nation Cruise station ships that never happened. I find it interesting that like you're reading the story and it's like the same trap the Persian satrap. He is kind of fighting or hitting them against each other trying them out and the peloponnesians are kind of just the Spartans are just kind of going along with this and Aris. I think it's the Admiral this point the name Mark it's the more experienced Syracuse and ships who are starting to get frustrated with her mocker T's, whereas like the inexperience Gardens were just kind of like just willy-nilly naive and at this point, I think the Corinthians hadn't really put out a lot of tips of their own but it's like the experienced Syracuse ins who defeated the Athenians with their General democrates a few years earlier and they're the ones that get frustrated because they have the experience in Naval home. Fighting now it was her makurdi is who actually was most of those difference in his criticism of Joseph and his and his policy and I think the Syracuse students who showed themselves to the very capable professional they were the ones who were most disgruntled by essentially not being treated properly by this happening is I think they saw through subterfuge after a while. You start to what your thoughts are some wonder. Where is this for? You should Fleet that's always been promised and never shows up where as our money. They were supposed to be subsidized but they were never getting the kind of money that they had been promised and never getting money that would have made them into the kind of horse that could have wall up to the acadians and it would seem that true Socrates have in mind the idea that all support the Spartans and Foundations enough to keep Athens to keep them in the war right but not to defeat Athens out. Right because one thing person policy would not have wanted would have been agree Staffing. Made by one or the other which then could have struck it Persian territory and would have been a greater danger. And in that regard for several years. It certainly didn't lead to the weakening of the spark Fishin during that I own war and there's a lot of false starts fits and starts and the comedians showed amazing ability to pull themselves up off the mat after suffering terribly beats one of the month. So in the aftermath of the failure of the Sicilian Expedition their outer ships, their coffers are really depleted but somehow they able to put together a new Fleet fight hard and they were able to offer first because of the mountains rightness of the Spartans as we payments being made by Persians themselves and which is happening but also because if it is still had nautical skills, they knew how to fight a lot better. They practiced new or Warfare and the best in the Spartans ever did and because of that they were able to emerge Victorious battles over the balance of power. Do we know how like what their wage? Drill and practise regimen was like do they drill every day the rowers during the war sometimes? looking simply to get I was practice that before and the more you are actually going the better going to young but the comedians were always practice practice support or whatever broke out and raise their thoughts towards me to a very high standard much higher than anybody else excepting perhaps the champions for instance because they had more practice they could do Maneuvers off speaker only dream of so for example to go back in time a little bit. If you go to 429 BC, it's the Gulf of current and there's the Peloponnesian Freaker's baby. Take off our invasion of Akron Anya it's intercepted by this forty-seven ships in this Peloponnesian Clayton are outfitted not for battle and see but as an invasion Force. Oh, no doubt. They're intercepted by a 20 driving strong Squadron under Admiral formulas is all opinion Chapleau, 20 of them right formula was really officer who dies down Allegedly soon after his over to blowing 429. He he comes upon the ship's the Spartan feat Forum something called a coup close, which is a formation image of the triremes of pointing out and presenting the Rams to an enemy all around defense but it also immobilizes them. So formula with is 20 ships grows around them and this phrase will be repeated but it's a he literally Rose dog around them and each time. They're making States inward at the Peloponnesian ships and space cause the peloponnesians to lunch up huddling in each time. This happens Cucos gets Tighter and Tighter and Tighter until finally there's no it's happening at night and formula has great intelligence about what's going to happen. He knows that the winds going to ship and when she comes to morning comes and that's where he strikes. He takes all of us kids and they really Cava the Spartans Spartans get away and there's a waiting game afterwards. All right so long As the Spartans are trying to enforce formula gets no reinforcements. So he's still left with just twenty ships as compelling is reinforced. So that's the battle. It's called The Battle of childish off the ensuing Battle of malpractices when the 20 ships on the formula or making a movement along the northern shore of self-importance and they're heading back towards their basic malpractice. They're chased by off the television last night in the line or captured and Beach but the 11 or able to escape ten that made safety inside an alpaca the last one eleven. Try ring being chased by a single Peloponnesian hiring. It's gotten out ahead. So the rest of the Peloponnesian fleas following at a very leisurely Pace, they're singing the pay on which is very Victory song. And so here's a thought it meant anchored right outside the mouth of malpractice Harvest Senator. Give me a try to injure in the harbor and there's this one last driving that is passing by the merchant but this last try ring effective Just a merchant in to set up pick Maneuvers around merchantman the pursuing Peloponnesian driving can't respond as easily as it comes around. It's this tribe in Ramsey sinks and I'm getting this Counterattack leaves the Tennessee Indian. Try reading it heartens them. They that issue for us now practice fiber and go on the offensive and peloponnesians argh taken completely by surprise. They think the battle is over. They think the battle is won and formulas able to get back all of the ships sink several others of the enemy and it's just brilliant move onto battles. It shows that Superior rowing scale of medians enabled them to snatch Victory out of the jaws of defeat. I'm going to circle back to the cupola that you talked about that was used at artemisium as well. We is that something that was kind of considered an old fashioned defensive maneuver cuz I don't really remember reading about it much later in the Peloponnesian War. Correct. The idea of the Ku Klux was that by presenting the bow off. Worship to the enemy gave him an uninviting Target of having a ram on RAM attack. So that idea is it's very defensive in origin. They didn't like hitting Rams cuz that can cause damage equally to your ship as well. And what happened was later when the Corinthians discovered that you strengthen your prowess you proud of how ramming and do more damage to the Athenians who had lighter choice for fast maneuvering. I'm not aware of the Cucos being used again. The Cucos did the thing about the coupons is that to use it means that you are giving up all ability to maneuver defensive puddle, which at C is a very difficult thing you'd probably chosen by peloponnesians at the Battle of childish because they were a fleet that was outfitted for like an advantage but not so much a feed ready for battle. That's probably why you don't see it after that and you see it earlier in an organization one of the things that should mourn and mine and this is one of the interesting things about the differences between Europeans of the Peloponnesian log. And that Athenians in the Greeks of the Persian Wars is that the Persian Wars the skill of the weather. The Athenians are the other Greeks was relatively poor. They were interested in fighting battles, not of manure but important they wanted his fight board and that'll that way. It was The Phoenician Sailors of the Persian Fleet that had greater skill, but because the Athenians the big Fleet had stations of Salamis the Persian Fleet got a bunched up had no room to maneuver in such constricted Waters and that's why the idea of fighting and narrow strict Waters dates tactical skill negates Roanoke Island, which is what you'll see a lot later in the war where when people are trying to fight the Athenians. They're trying to get them into an aerospace to negate their maneuverability their Superior trireme in skilled and Helmsman and or asthma and stuff, uh, so like that instead of getting into the what the city's calls the old-fashioned way of War. That's right. In fact, you should at home. Saw the Athenian way of Naval Combat as as the superior way that is needed room to maneuver. But with the security railing skill, you could maneuver rapidly enough to to read a poem either in the sides or in the stern. You have to go really fast too and click the damaging strike on and try room skill also was important because the rotors need to be able back water which was actually gets tracked the trial in from the Target that they had hit would one hit of the RAM do it or would you have to hit it multiple times? But from the sources one time would do the trick. And in fact, one of the things that the ramming wage that worry was about over penetration that he didn't want to put your ship so deeply into the side of the enemy try Rim that you couldn't get out again. So design of the ram was actually meant to prevent them so that could get your ship cuz if your ship was stuck in another ship you were fighting a boarding action, no matter what but what the opinion quantity is. They want to do whole an enemy ship allow it to flood with water and then go and find some other way. So they didn't really sink ships, right? They just kind of disabled them. That is correct the trireme it had laid about 40 tonnes, which is not a lot considering and it had a crew of $200 and its size but I need a positive buoyancy so that even when it got old and flooded it sink lower the water rarely would ever sing what that meant was is that after a battle was crippled triremes could be taken until captured by victoriously and refurbished the thing about the trial in and I think this probably a great time to actually get into the trunk is that it's a very sophisticated patience ology. It doesn't really have any analogy that we will find later Naval Warfare because it was not like the ship of the line of the 18th and 19th century. It's not meant to schedule really Stout size that made a boat. He was very light. It was very swiftly propelled by its origin in battle sales were taken down often time left ashore. What the primary job And if it was that like the Ironclad of a nineteenth-century, you can remove or without regard to the wind on like the ship of the line which was lying upon the wind and the weapon of the trial and the Grange open we first it was the program itself with its RAM and also the soldiers that Kerry so ramming and boarding or the to pack for the listeners. I'm pretty sure they already know but try reading because they've yeah three decks with three thousand Horsemen theme is the anglicization of the Latin word. Try reading this meeting or the Greek term for three areas. And that meant that it was at 3 or is that is or three level or three nights at the top boy in the middle and the talent night at the bottom. So so you would have had loads of whores Poppin out on each side each Manhattan 470 Rome 85. Each side. Was that like a like from the the top middle of the bottom was that kind of like a social structure don't know if it was a social structure presumably I prefer to page. Ichiro I'd be upper-level maybe where you had are the size of the trireme try nights were open and they were vulnerable to strike someone to actually sell up and plus a job on that thing, which is what the Syracuse said that all the great Harbor or Cherokee. They got little boats and tossed javelins at these unprotected Growers. And once you get in the source material which you ask some more questions here and there but the source material says that most of the fifth century lower made three calls per day. They were sick souls to drop, drop. It was considered to be a good wage of a skilled Craftsman when Peloponnesian War start range of the rower is now one droplet per day and so they're nice and tape it also meant that proof of a prurient was very expensive in pain. And so it was very expensive to operate off trying for any other time that is over a 30-day month it cost in full Talent OR fifty seven and a half pounds roughly of silver six thousand drachma to keep the two hundred Sellers and off. Flights and other soldiers are fully paid. So 200 was the number per trireme. So you're at $170 in mind you these are idealized numbers but their full complement of an ordinance 10 law that I quit Marines if we're talk so tight with archers and the balance were the various Sailors that is were the ones who actually operated the mass or the try our cruise ship's Captain example, the Caboose and sometimes called transfer to his boatswain kept Growers and time and you had the kubernetes who was the Helmsman the pilot who actually but directed the ship and balanced. So the Marines off essentially just hoplites right? Did they have like different equipment or was it just what a normally a hoplite would where they were hoplite said say for example, the same health program says with you here sometimes about the Romans using the Raines law is the part of Jennings in the Punic Wars those just you know, if you happen to be on a boat, so these were hoplites they were they were there and chased the two ships not together and had to fight to need a job. The borders were to capture another shift the fact that the Athenians would put ten top lights on board first indicative that they were not hoping to actually fight boarding actions instances where other navies would put more. So now than it was forty degrees on board if they really wanted to boarding as a actual battle tank but you put more hoplites on board. If you were planning on doing raids, I think that this is where the game is lacking it would make sense to perhaps put more Marines on board a particular tribe if you're going on enabled rate on the other hand would probably have been more efficient to transport an even larger number of aliens on Earth specifically made per transport. Yeah, that makes sense. So two hundred four hundred seventy would you know where we roughly got that estimation? We know that there was a $200 altogether rather I should say same. All together because the cities says that each grower was making the same amount as the hoplite and they're all being paid the same. So the 202 would cost six thousand dropped money per month and we know that the numbers of birth. Various types of rollers on board but where exactly that comes from. You don't know exactly I don't want to point to anything but the actual number was 200 as specified by the city because he was trying to explain how much this cost and not all over ours made the same rate cuz they started hiring like kind of like mercenary experienced Growers. Maybe not Athens, but other city-states as well. This is where once again the source material can be lacking wish you could ask another question about how much they were making. So for example, two cities in his history explains how much it costs to keep an entire crew of anathema driving in case you've got two hundred horses and hoplites archers. We'll have you all on board the cost of drama a day per man and over 30 days that would all work out to bait for entire month or 6000 drop night or one talent for driving. So it made them the math relatively easy to do but we also know that later on in the war there's having back to how much the opinions really still paying wage. 300 walls and they're also seeing sort of in competition between various say Athenian. Try our our access you hiring proven that is you would have to offer more pay to a particular oarsmen ought to get your ship filled up cuz all of this was going to handle the tri-ox so you can imagine that if you're a try Iraq that wants to make sure that your ship is fully crewed and is therefore fast because you've got a full complement of rollers. You probably going to have to offer a bit more money to get them on board as opposed to leaving maybe a quarter of your ships empty in a chair. Arc is not necessarily be someone who has got that position from experience, but it's it was one of the liturgies or Latoria that one of the wealthy in Athens bankroll is one of the most expensive ones. But yeah, you you basically get paid for the city and the prices of the building of the ship and it was it was it essentially like their ship or was it kind of like renting out of shape? They all depends. It seems that job of the treasurer was to age Sure that there was a crew on board with the crew got paid all of the ancillary equipment support equipment that attract we needed ropes course the anchor Sal's the mass but those were all taken care of so long to ship might have been built by the state. He handles everything else and made sure that it was ready for battle. He would often Captain the ship and then he would hand the duty over. The next to Iraq is not something that would last forever. He would pay for it for a season that it would end the stuff over and one of the benefits of the Triangular Trade system is that it was an informal system in which off tracks were able to make sure that they had the equipment that they and their ships needed without needing to get government involved which not have had I think had the wherewithal least the parcel everything out as needed. So how did the chain of command go if there was such a thing the second most important person on the ship considering he was steering the ship was the steersman sometimes also referred to as Helmsman for the pilot and that's dead. Improve our nation's skills kubernetes was the guy who made the Ramey strike really dead was he also someone that might have been drawn from the feet or was that more of like a privilege wealthier position that was kind of like an office job. He was not from lower class, but he was he was certainly a skilled person skilled salad, darn our lack of sources, right? Did we have some nice things but not everything that would be possible. See if the true art films then where there was it the boat swans or I'm sorry the promotion is that what it is. It looks like boatswain. But yeah, that's the translation for kalustyan's who is the one who made sure that the Growers kept in time and Rhythm because imagine you've got a hundred seventy and with oars, they're all pulling they all have to pull in unison together. So he kept the time for them. How did they quote a time? That's interesting. For example, sometimes what they would do is that they would call out phrase was in Greek food or old punk or pop that was their call to keep in touch. I mean anything I don't know what that means and sometimes when they wanted to go fast and they would say reply re that is they would have little call out to the cruise that made sure that they were all growing in time when stealth was required, Sometimes keep Time by capping stones to go. There was a very important it was a Sonic element to battle and see so for example, there's a Spartans would tell their Sailors be quiet so you can hear what our police dog. Saying we need to be able to get orders out keep your voices down. So everyone can hear and in cases where you became so great and everyone shouting for their lives, right? We could hear any orders wage and that was example man now because can't you can't order effective must have got hundreds of men screaming. There's no way you're going to get much out of them. And I remember after the acidity specifically talks about that with the Battle of Ram with formula and back to the Cucos chaos that that it caused that happens that that kept the Peloponnesian from effectively responding. I know like Assassin's Creed Odyssey isn't very good with Naval Warfare. But today like just shoot normal arrows or did they actually put like fire arrows and shoot at each other? I think the fire hours are more of a Hollywood kind of thing, which doesn't mean that firing missiles will never used the same Source material is what it is. It's arrows how effective would arrows have been on a ship. There was Javelin throwers to write like some of them through javelins. There's no example of our church. Or any kind of really missile combat being the decisive factor and enable. I have a feeling that extent that any of these battles can't imagine carefully constructed is that there were approaches to track Remy. So when might have javelins were shot arrows as the ships near the damage was done by the ram couldn't get away the new amazing a boarding action fought for possession of one of the ships, but that it was a matter of some form of missile doing enough damage to Cripple the show. Okay. So back to the try room for a little bit do we know so they got a lot of their Timber from like Macedon and other places do we know how much roughly one trireme would have cost to put together. Do you know how long it would take to build a try redeemed like the process of it? It's conjectural as to how much a trireme would have cost but I've seen figures saying that had cost of a compact which would have been a talent was fifty seven and a half pounds and when they say town for almost always of silver which was coming around to talents to build that generally speaking a cost. That would have warned by the state wage. So they were costly or any napkins case. The the tribute States tribute is actually important thing about that getting to the question of building ships or galleys of the ancient world. We're actually relatively quick to build because we have many many instances where police will put together in in sixty days or ninety days or something really fast large numbers of them. And that was primarily because you were built all to the same patterns. It seems that is Roman certainly built the same pattern by copying a carthaginian trireme of captured in the beginning of Punic War and I think that off for a lot of these shifts you see production everything was done in a mass production sort of sense that these were not as much as possible. You're probably trying to build according to the same plan the same fittings the same size, September's and things like that. So if we could be put together relatively quickly as long as you had the materials to hand where they built in piraeus or is that just where they ended up but they were definitely built home. Indian Territory and mystically is also would bring relief from taxation too skilled shipwrights to attract them to Athens as needed or just working for the second version of Asian. You needed them there to accomplish all the ships. So construction of the ships could be done relatively quickly and you have examples of weeks being built in the short amount of time the Athenian certainly managed to put together and phone number of ships in the run-up to the Battle of our canoe side. It was so it seemed that yes, you could build ships quickly. Have you seen the the modern reconstruction? Yes, I have I think it's really I think also it's helped you because they they built a replica and mind you a modern replicas. Never going to be one hundred percent accurate compared to what would have had before but I think that generally speaking you can say that the Olympia switch is off of the Hellenic Navy which is built in the nineteen eighty s and in that period of the eighties and nineties, they conducted several tests rolling it to see how it might have performed the remarkable thing about the Olympics. Is that it should light on so many different aspects of ancient Naval Warfare and it confirms a lot of what new? So for example, it confirms that states that are tested too in terms of resources could be achieved by the crew of the Olympia s m e o m p s crew didn't have necessarily like a professional crew many of them were people to learn from or whoever was willing to sit and pull a tan or but they were able to achieve sustained speeds of six and seven. So you can you actually go faster if they were doing a Sprint speed which is what they've been using battle or perhaps for ramming things like that of maybe nine to ten thousand one of the interesting things that fascinated me was productivity to test on how long it would take to get a full crew aboard the olympias using to gangplank's and moving after Double wage and they were able to get on it was a 90 seconds or out really fast. Oh wow, so they were able to get their full cruise on really quickly. So what that shows is because there's so many thoughts. This is an ancient David Walker and especially in the Peloponnesian War movies not being able to get back on to their ships in time to get them off the beach and out to see that it wasn't how long it took to physically get aboard a ship. That was the problem. It was how far were these was wandering off that they were not near they're shipped off to actually get on board put out the doors and drag it in to see so for example, you look at the very end of our. Now you sodomy something of an anticlimax because if any appointments pretty much dead and still on the beach and most of the ship did not get out to fight Peloponnesian to have our vendor that was some cause the comedians had parked their ships and such a terrible location, you know food around they allowed a cruise to wander far afield go find food and Lysander sees this and fight. He finally comes out to fight the Athenian crewmen are nowhere near door ships actually battle. So there's an aspect too long. Ancient Greek Naval weapons that is simply finding food making sure that improves are your ships being ready to fight. It's often overlooked because the World War two equivalent of what happened with see if he was he was part of me was like war planes being caught on an Airfield that is fun ready to fight an airplane Park in an Airfield. It's not the air is usually that's exactly what happened for example that battle so when they would try room would put out to see did they take any like Provisions with them like for a day or two or was everything found what they would stop along the coast and find things the amount of food and water that you can actually bring on the tri beam is very limited because we try to have a self had a large number of men aboard compared to its size. So it's cargo carrying capacity very limited. So that's the way that the police prefer to move was to prefer to move along the coast that they couldn't cross open water, but they prefer to move along the coast and reduce movements across open water to a minimum wage. I want the benefits of saying along the coast was is that he could teach their ships on teaching a shipment that can take the ship up and all it a short. It took about a hundred forty men to Halt the ships a short and they men would get after they would stop for lunch louder than to get off take their meal for lunch. Then they would haul the ship back in Cruz some more some more and then at night what they would do is they would haul shift back up have dinner and allow the ship dry out a bit over night when when traveling the question about food. Is that often complete address. We request of a nearby town of a city would say what you please establish a market somewhere outside of your walls where our men could get some food which is where the the sizzling exhibition failed before it even started. They had a lot of trouble actually finding food for themselves. Now a lot of cities that were happy to supply moving fleets because imagine that even a modestly 12:30 triremes would have 6,000 men off. Men coming ashore that when you could have sold a lot of food and made some nice money. So establishing a market was more or less take your your food Merchants vendors outside the city walls sell them and then they'll be off some Greek police were supplied with who they actually brought with him. And this is why once again the source material through often be lacking on certain things. Whereas the Cecilia Cecilia an expedition and we know that it was coming triremes actual warships were accompanied by a cloud of merchant ships of all sizes. They're bringing food codes by the free and we can probably just that any one time that Merchant fleets that rather military police were being tailed by Merchant ships things like that. They were trying to do business there probably were also support ships the various sizes that might have been performing reconnaissance or just for whatever reason but especially when you get into xenophon Salonika and it talks about how many ships maybe had or what-have-you at a certain battle. It's just the numbers of triremes that are mentioned the ancillary warships are not described. Why didn't they just take whenever they would go out to on campaign just fill up a bunch of Transport vessels with Saddam so they didn't have to stop and look for food. That's an excellent question it made and right now I'm conjecturing trying to use what I would consider to be. Well, what could you have done? If you put food on board a ship how long like that fresh like, you know food might have lasted so we can't be certain that they didn't send some ships along with moving Fleet, but it's probably simpler to have the ship in the fleet Beach get food wherever they were cuz you need a lot of fruit and deal with it that way which is why paying the oarsmen paying the cruise was so vital. I always find it interesting like you were talking about the Battle of I guess part of me. There's battles throughout the war where both sides get just completely caught off guard while their soldiers are Sailors are out getting food. I guess that's a larger point of some of my frustrations doesn't seem like a lot of their general home. Didn't really like learn lessons from throughout the horse. I think you're bringing up the point that they seemed rather amateurish at times probably indicate that it is exactly that you would hope that there would be more professional attitudes that they would actually have reconnaissance ships. Moving ahead someone to Signal the enemy was approaching and maybe the ships were there maybe just much harder to spot an enemy. They can see them then think but they were very vulnerable when they were sure it also happened during the Punic was that one example where a woman caught a short of fully managed to to survive a lot of buying out to say to point that there's a crack continue to Fleetwood cotton the battle had a friend that Cyrillic efforts Admiral they would get his mustard now to see what surprise is a real thing. But it comes to these battles would say that the main answer that I would give is that it was a level of amateurishness. There was never truly avoidable. So for example, sometimes just job Would make mistakes and and as part of me is a classic example of that. What would happen is that laws and who's the nav are now in Europe or privacy and one of the truly great commanders of the month the television work. He holds tight control over the entirety of his Fleet. He's sitting there in lamps acts. He's taken laptops in the house fire and he has all of his men close to his ships home. Whereas the board of General that's commanding the Athenian Swedish model for cheap one. They're allowing their their men to go wherever they can to go find food and that close by that's because there's no food close by to have thought the app somehow what was that or does is because he has a stronger command and control of his army. No matter what the skill levels were relative between the peloponnesians and the Athenians has improved if the entirety of the Peloponnesian Fleet is combat-ready and deploys against only a relative small portion of the Athenian most of which is caught on the beach the Peloponnesian log. Going to win and I guess we should point out too that the Athenians shot themselves in the foot there by executing some of their best generals either prior to this. That's a great Point bringing up. And in fact, that's that even goes back to the whole question of wage Athenians at the very end of the war still demonstrated their superiority and Naval Combat. So at the Battle of our canoes sign 406b, see if unions have no ships. They've got off the train Sailors, but they may just ask you scrape together enough money build ships put together a new Fleet with whoever was willing to pull in or so, they meet the Persians at our ganoush. I during the Peloponnesian in your side walk in and it's a great Victory. What happens is that a storm is coming up. So after every battle you have these crippled problems matter of Fallen all the drawers and in the water a storm comes up and you're still a cleavage fifty ships in the vicinity the Athenian General say, we've got a lead you can't stay to collect all of the bodies of the dead or those who survived how realistic was it that they were going to even collect wage? Bodies of the Dead it would just be survivors, right? Cuz the bodies of the Dead presumably would sink to the oceans not necessarily some of them might have been floating it's hard to say but it seems that they were both, you know corpses possibly if you were not wearing Army probably floated, but the public might have some because he's wearing a heavy armor, but they were survivors and they were also dead and they didn't stay to collect and that was a violation of religious taboo among increase. So what happens is that by winning this battle Against All Odds the the teen journals the ones who brave enough and foolhardy enough to go back to Athens they put on trial and they're found guilty by the assembly took them are executed. It's often been given as an example of democracy run amok or radical democracy. It's also been used. As an example of that the rowers would have come from the lower classes that piece of Phoenix Society. Whereas the East retrieve the generals would have been drawn from the upper classes and they believe there was some sort of past resentments that they meant to die. I think that they had an extremely rational excuse for why they couldn't stay to collect all the bodies afterwards or all the rest of everybody because of the storm which might have read the entire page representing defense, but the six Admirals were executed by mean an alpha five days after that was no longer basically ever going to come back even though he had been exiled then came back and then he's just kind of on the outs again Faith basically had nobody that can stand up to Lysander at that point and they just decided, you know, just shoot ourselves in the foot. I also buy these actually did make an appearance right before the dialogue as part of me cuz for our 05 page he warns the Athenians. He said you're in a terrible position moved to sasto switch is a nearby city. You'll find food that you can keep watch on it, but they decided to stay on the other side of the Hill spot, which is Thursday. It's like to leave a beach and nothing else there. No even said look, I have some mercenary inspiration mercenaries. What I can do is I can mount a planned attack on the Peloponnesian league and we can find ourselves but am told to shove off by the Athenian General. I also buy these by this time had a very checkered career brilliant General. He's much better than he's given credit for even though I don't think alcibiades ever did anything that wasn't a hundred percent great browse about it is but the main limiting factor on how society's actions when he comes back to the Athenian particular when he is accepted back to Athens. He's reinstated off. He's given command of the Athenian places that he never had enough money to actually accomplish much that is much of what he was doing was effectively piracy that he was going around grabbing money from whoever we could continue the war. That's not the way to actually run the war. So he finally told to leave by acting because of the failure at the Battle of notion, which was actually he wasn't present lost by his helmet takes the free out. It's just to get everything messed up on the siding Xander and his very trained great discipline Peloponnesian. Fleet alcibiades could have helped the Athenians to at least avoid disaster. He was part of the month. But by this time he's not trusted good. Imagine if things were very personal back. Then you're dealing with Urban politics at its death and all of the the fights that go on in a city where everybody knows everybody else and the way people talk makes it seem you have these now inexperienced generals cuz they're most experienced ones are no longer alive alcibiades gives them solid advice and they're like, no we got this Athenians just showed by the advanced settings. I mean the general commanding they had 10,000 extremely competent because they put themselves in a terrible position in this economy. And they also managed to ignore excellent advice that one wonders if it had come from someone who was not named alcibiades wage. Would they listen to it? It's very difficult to say that being said, there's one point that has to be made concerning the superior command and control that was Xander had greater effectiveness of the Peloponnesian, maybe Rev. Have two of the Athenian Navy at this point of the war. The big change comes what really is the decisive factor in turning the table the cycling against Athenians is when Prince song the younger he's being a Prince of Persia younger son. Gary is the Second Great king. It takes control of the Maritime Provinces the Western Empire East take control of the duration of the war. He gets on very well with Lysander. They become best buddies. So he's now in control of this verse amount of money to the peloponnesians. It's only like your job opportunities. He is extremely generous he turns off the spigot for his friend Lysander and he's able to not only pay the Peloponnesian Fleet fully but even when they get chance after Argonauts, he's able to help subsidize the building of new ships. It's the it's the introduction of Persian subsidies large-scale one Sprint Cyrus comes in that really changes everything because dead Then how Canadians and suffer defeats and then come back as strong as they were last time. They can pay more rollers fill out their benches. For example, simply by making way of the Peloponnesian Ourisman four ovals as opposed to the Nobles that the Athenians were getting all these extra Growers who who probably clustering around there. They all go to the peloponnesians cuz you can make money for your money definitely helps in there the last few years of the war. I mean even in front of Asus even 3 built a brand new Fleet after sin is Emma, right intervention of emergence in a serious way by a son. That was what tipped the scales that's what it comes down to that's why for example what I I talked about my book a naval history of the Peloponnesian War shifts men and money in the world safe money is a huge deal with this war and one of the things that gets ignored why the Persians decided after the failure of the Sicilian Expedition so that he didn't really, you know hurt to come in in a big way again. Athens which they could have done before hand now it may have been at the Spartans. Not sure what they were willing to do. But sometime around four hundred fifteen the Athenians involved in some way with Rebel. It was a Persian travel more used in Cary. Oh, well, he's got the city of gaseous in carry on western coast of Asia Minor. He's actually in effect of the great king goes into Rebellion the Athenians gave some sort of help to him that so incensed great king that he decided that he would now intervene with money that way generally watch if this down if you were to sum up like the last after the piece of Nicki is basically the last two decades, it's the Athenians did everything they could to lose they pissed off the Persians they be sent to massive fleets to Sicily. They executed their generals. They got rid of alcibiades then brought him back and they got rid of them and the Spartans as few cities put it were the best people at the table. It's possibly could be at war with them because they let them get back into it and it wasn't and it was ultimately Persian money in the end. I agree. I think that what your capsule version of why Athens lost and found once again, I really do believe that the Athenians Triumph first half of the archidamian war and you can consider that a victory that it was a Triumph the matter of time strategy that the Athenians had as we Sedated by paraclete now Pericles, of course is gone after the first few years of war. He's comes to the plague. They don't have his wise Direction anymore. But even though Athens suffered heavily from the plague life partner and the rest of the Peloponnesus, didn't they they still manage to try and fight bringing in the Peloponnesus with Naval bases from which to Harry television forces. They ignored Pericles advice back to Camp. No further Conquest Now by further conquests, you didn't mean capturing a city on the coast of Holland nieces and setting up a base what he meant horses that avoid the crazy talk that's going around Athens where you're going to conquer wage. Area for Carthage or Sicily? Because a lot of people who are talking about, you know, it's really thought they were something else. They thought that they were going to be able to conquer these very well-developed wealthy powerful states these wage against that but what happens is by or 15, it has recovered from the plagues New Generation has grown up wealth is flowing into getting a lot of money in tribute from their various allies and run off and really subject States at this time Cecilia a condition which was completely unnecessary. They had an enemy still extant increase and they sent a huge Fleet to capture Syracuse and you have to wonder how they thought that was actually going to benefit them except that they thought that it was going to be easy analogy for that is I compared often to the attack by Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union in nineteen forty-one. They thought that defeating the Soviet Union would be an easy thing, but they hadn't accomplished in defeat of Great Britain So Great Britain is still there. It turned out that the war against so many was much harder than the same way home. We're still alive and well and the war with Syracuse was much more difficult than they ever could have imagined facilities is says that oh, they didn't realize how big Cecily was. It's like, well you guys are just they're decade ago was the newer generation. Just thought naively did they get persuaded by alcibiades that easily to think it was going to be that easy when you were just there decade ago granted Syracuse didn't have a Navy that point but you're not going to conquer that island. But I mean as a side I actually have an episode It's called Carthage enters the war and I pretty much just think of their fight with a Syracuse since as part of the Peloponnesian War has gone Mediterranean just kind of continuation in my mind. So I Incorporated that into the scene as we go on because their entrance pulls the Syracuse stands out of the East which is I think a big factor as well that allows the Athenians kind of come back I think is in 409. But yeah, that's just an aside you recall when this is going on that there is more than just grease out there is obviously pressure than Athens even tries to get Carthage as an ally wage. You know that might have been significant if that happened. I mean they were allies but they never sent any anything to Athens at all. Like it certainly is an interesting what-if and that's one of the things about any sort of historic event that what if this happened. What if that had happened how might this had changed it would seem that getting back to the point of Why Did the Athenians want to undertake attack on Sicily is that they had had success for so long Wong that they really thought that they were invincible and they just didn't think that Syracuse would have proved to be that difficult an opponent. See I think that it was a terrible idea to ever attempt the Sicilian Expedition all obviously with hindsight knowing how badly it went. They definitely like tactically made some stupid decisions that if they made other decisions, they could have defeated Syracuse, even if they say took the city they were able to hold it realistically for very long. So just the logistics of that would have been impossible. It would have been extremely difficult to hold it. I think that the best chance that they had taken Syracuse was at the very outset of the Dead. Pain when Syracuse was not well prepared. It would seem that if they were going to have any chance of actually capturing Syracuse strike immediately and see what happens and once it became a matter of a long Siege with killed them was then they literally trapped themselves inside the great Harbour. They force took all of the advantages that Athenian Fleetwood have which is its Superior wrong still better faster ships, but need room to maneuver. They got into fights where you were just in a slugging match where once the the Syracuse ins taking a page from Corinthians realize that you could just use Chrome ramming tactic to disable the Indian ships in a crowded area your days were numbered on Sicily. They lost so much there and I think what meant was the value they lose the cream of their League City down and power but what was pressed most challenging about Cecily not even so much what they lost because it now gave confidence to all of their enemies to say happens. Is that off Restart this war and that's what started it. Once that you started the war. Then we television feed starts to get built. They find a Persian subsidized Ur. The hellespont is now in play as an aside. Have you ever played Syracuse Artesia know I've been to Italy interview a it's beautiful. Obviously, it's Sicily's an awesome Island, but it's like you sit on that little island and you just look into the harbor and it's like it's kind of mesmerizing to like think of like how many of those ships were in that Harbor during those battles and it's like man there was like very little movement taking place about two hundred ships all told inside the harbor area when you take off charging account, there just was not enough space for the Athenians to do what they needed and they could not get their ships out of the water regularly because they didn't have enough shifts to stay on guard so that they constantly soaking up water and that's one of the things I try remains often point in mind. You're made out of firm drinks up Waters. That's why they always have to drive them out. You can't drive your ships out. Not only do they start your month, but they also get very heavy because our water long so a heavy-water large home. Not going to maneuver as well as a lighter dried out properly. There is a lot of Innovations in this couple of years to just because of the tight space and again fascinating some of the things they did with the dolphin. I don't actually know what the actual Greek word for that is and then they had the the divers that would like dive underwater and try and cut up these spikes and stuff and arrow shooting. It's just an interesting interesting time. A lot of Naval Innovation, right the dog ends were intriguing because what it was as you were using effectively gravity to damage the Enemy by dropping a chunk of Metal Gods and that also shows up what it shows you is that firings. Once again, I'm not like Nelson's HMS Victory programmes were fragile. So that a big hunk of metal dropped from sufficient height could potentially penetrate the deck with all through the at all also bear in mind is yet to get really close with something like a dolphin so that would use in the lights inside the gray Harbor of Syracuse what that brings up is that they will work a Greek Naval Warfare. It was amphibious Warfare that these ships were not cruising down. That far from Land very often most flights were taking place very close to land. And if you backed up your ship into a harbor, let's say and the other ships had to actually come close that meant that if you hang something off the guard on go ahead and stone that would work pretty well that leads me to ask. You said it took about ninety seconds to get on the ship and whatnot. How long would it take them to like if they backed up to a harbor to like get out of that Harbor? I don't know seemed that the question of how long would it take to get your ship to see you could not have been too long cuz the ship could have been pulled off of a beige and put the seat by each crew complement your break-even its full complement the major limiting factor a member of these shifts as our rowing even if they're doing a Sprint speed. You're moving it maybe nine knots an hour. So let's say ninety miles an hour. These are not moving very quickly. So you see them from a far enough distance, you would think you'd be able to get all of your equipment back aboard a ship at least out to say safely in a relatively quick amount of time. I think that is true wage. The fact that so many times that didn't happen whether it was a notion whether it was it was part of me would mean that Crews were just too far away. They were doing other things eating food getting food sleep off whatever and they would only be rowing if they're like in combat areas, right that depends. It depends on if they want you to give a practice to their rollers as they're moving so they could row you could grow at a steady Pace you could actually do that with a significant period of time the sale was there to take the burden off of the road. So the trireme had to sales had the main sell on the main mass and had the boat sale on the boat Mass boatmasters smaller objects forward for both of those were taken down when battle was in the office. They were just useless weight. So they were often left the shore either taking down were left a short. They knew battle is coming interestingly brief didn't try power cycling that is the idea of growing with the sale. You would think that that would speed the ship along but you could do that, but the problem of the discovered was in modern re-creations is that song Not worth the trouble because we're moving so fast and the wind was blowing you here and there that what would happen this is that couldn't actually she wore orice on each side in time. And one of the there's a bunch of battles to talk about like generals try and get the enemy to row Against the Wind I think for me. Oh did that a few times? There's a lot of wins that came down from the Northeast. So it makes it makes sense when you think about it. That way I first was reading some of the battle narratives or the campaigns. It's like, why are they sailing North just to go south It's like because they're trying to catch wins and oftentimes movements of the kind you mention that we're done because they knew that they'd have to put ashore pretty quickly so that they take their meal. So when making the ceiling Expedition, they actually first moved up more coast of the healthiest often post before they crossed over to Sicily and then came back down south blessed time. He can stay away from a Kostas is preferable. That is correct. You could make long-distance movements, especially with the triremes. The merchant ships can go away wage. Close more. I believe the crew of a merchant ship was much smaller compared to the size and mass of the ship and was the try to try room is all about combat. That's why you had so many rollers on it. The roads were not there to wage rate the ship and sense of the sales or anything like that. We were there to make sure that you had the ability to maneuver while you were in in battle and that's why you had so many on so do we know much about Naval discipline in the sense like punishments? I'm not the person for that just as an aside what interesting things about people history is that we have lots of relatively lots of material about Athens how they ran their Fleet cuz they had tryouts and they have their lists and things survive on directions, but we don't know all that much about how other groups States good that it's not necessarily clear how much you can infer from the Indian practice to practice of other Greek States wage a lot of material that we have considering the Athenian 80 Days From the 4th Century, which is not the Peloponnesian War. We're we're limited by our sources. I also think in is Ryan's and you've probably seen this already dead. No one is really producing an ancient world the genuine military history. They may write about a war but it's not a military history in the sense that we would write it now with me writing about seiji day or South African campaign between Ronald Montgomery. These are very high-level diplomatic histories. We're typically the only games commanders typically our generals. If you wish that you knew more about who lower commanders were what it was like what they experienced and we don't have that. There's no like trying to think if there's any version of Band of Brothers. I don't know. I mean we do have that Athens anabaptists. I don't know if that would count you get a little bit understanding of the people around him, but it's still antiphons telling you what he wants you to know from his perspective. So it's it's a lot like I made this comparison in the lastest episode. I did a xenophon reminds me a lot of like Julius Caesar. It's very like specific and what he wants to talk about to put himself in the best light. Yes. I agree with that. I only tangentially mentioned the plague struck Athens British government. How interesting job Being played was because it had never been seen before you should have these that says it originally came completely opposite and made his way to Egypt and then Eastern Mediterranean and arrived the grass, but it mainly black accents didn't really hurt anybody else Athens got walloped and it can do much in the Peloponnesus. Now, one of the reasons may have been the previous had brought all of their people in in the city and it was a Shantytown a very areas and they were living in close quarters with people and animals and things like that. But the remarkable thing is Athens got a really bad but not their enemies. It's very difficult to try and pin down what it just wasn't the route twenty four centuries because sometimes symptoms that are created by first appearance of a disease in a virgin population differs from what the symptoms are when that disease comes back again, and that population has some sort of knowledge on the dentist the immunity antibodies whatever they did hit some places in Arcadia though, cuz I cuz they did build that like famous temple of a dog. Acai, I guess it struck a village really bad there. So there was a little bits of pockets. But yeah, I agree. It's I'm assuming that Athens was basically the trader in Egypt if it took from Egypt, I don't know if Corinth was going I think horns was more West still at that point then they basically just get like zoned out of the east by the Athenians. There was a lot of competition they're paid so that's why that's why the Corinthian hated the Italians. Yep. They were once you set this one you got to go to war. You gotta go to war Corinthians are barely mentioned at all in the second half of the war as the war goes on. You're saying wait a minute what happened to all of So they handle either they were there but they don't really get mentioned or are they kind of put them back seat because it really did become the Spartans and I guess whoever they could collect really really interesting how that all came out. It's a fascinating were and as long as you've got the cities, you know, it's brilliant work that he did that. He created is still holds lessons for policymakers. Not everybody reads it and gets supposed to be gotten out of it. You know, it takes a close reading it. Yeah. Yeah. This is this is fantastic conversation. Hope I get a good when I was putting together a lot of my episodes. I knew very little about life terminology of like ships and stuff. So like people are like the cat heads got changed on the ship. So the triremes the Corinthians change the cat had since like the hell's a cat head like yeah. Yeah. No, it's okay. It's quite all right, it's quite all right happens, you know, but it is remarkable stuff and that actually is something that because like titled is enabled history of the Peloponnesian log. One I really think that the Peloponnesian War was a naval war that is almost all of the battles were Naval bites decision was found at sing that is most important things that occurred was somehow related to maritime operations. So in the first half the seizure pylos the surrender was in this bacteria battles of gallium Antonia say, how did they have any effect on the war? Not really thought. Of course this real reason why it happens to the iron war is because violent your last release the plate is defeated and the food from the lifeline to the Black Sea and all that food is dead. So, that's why they lose. That's a neighbor one. Median an Air Force person. I would tell you that it's all about air power and less about land Navy at this point. But right right, right. No, I I completely understand, you know back in World War II Arthur Harris bomber command really believe that they could win the he could with the war with his heavy bombers. The American generals have on people like that at least fast. They all thought that wage. That they could win the war if they just had enough bombers and enough time. They could win the war. Of course, you need aircraft carriers now to you don't want to be flying from wasting fuel. Right? I mean, I guess you could say in Japan was defeated by air power but not entirely the thing is is that generally speaking on naval battle could lose you a war but was not going to necessarily when you were because you just have to walk in on land is that where people live so after the battle of Trafalgar still had to fight Napoleon on land or you know and Waterloo the Civil War they waged to blockade the South they still have the Confederate armies. So in that regard, I really wanted something very difficult cause app is imported group. So I this is this is a lot of fun. I won't take your time now, but yeah, I had a lot of fun with this. Thank you. If if it listeners can want to follow when your work. Do you have a website material on Amazon the author of Rome seizes the Trident dead? Unable history of the Peloponnesian War and the author of the science fiction series the moon on war series. Check it out on Amazon. off

Spartans Athens Navy Athens Greece Mark it Black Sea Attica Rams piraeus Asia Syracuse Sicily Aegean Sea Cucos Athens Seafood Ryan Mama Santas Rome Seasons
Episode 94: Will Tesla Stock Collapse Like a House of Cards?

Stansberry Investor Hour

57:33 min | 1 year ago

Episode 94: Will Tesla Stock Collapse Like a House of Cards?

"Broadcasting from Baltimore, Maryland and all around the world. You're listening to the stands berry investor. Our? Tune in each Thursday on I tunes for the latest episodes of the stands berry investor. Our sign up for the free show archive at investor our dot com. Here's your host, Dan ferris. Hello. And welcome everyone to another episode of the stands berry investor. Our I'm your host, Dan ferris on the editor of extreme value. Evalu- investing service published by stands Barry research. We have a really good show lined up today. So I am just going to jump in and go for it, folks. Okay. Today's rant is about you and your investments, the simple fact is and hardly anybody ever tells you this investing is personal. It's very personal. It's an extension of who you are before you buy one sheriff stock or one bond or one mutual fund. You should know a few things about yourself not just about investing. But about yourself what kind of? Investor are you what is your risk tolerance? Last week. We talked about the difference between investing and speculation. Well, are you primarily an investor or are you primarily speculator or just all one or just all the other? You should know that kind of stuff. I mean, do you even want anything to do with the stock market at all? That's a question you need to answer for most people. I think the answer probably ought to be a big fat. No, they just they just get carried along on the on the current, you know, everybody's doing it. So they want to do it too. Now, look, you know, Wall Street, the finance industry, big banks and brokerages, they're not on your side here. They don't want you to think investing his personal they want you to think there's a formula to that only. They know. Right. So you get these absurd. Pronouncements, for example, when some Wall Street jackass says, you know, out of someplace like, Goldman Sachs, right? They'll say, oh, well instead of having sixty percent stocks and forty percent bonds. We now recommend fifty five percent in stocks and forty five percent bonds. It's total Bs. It has. No, meaning whatsoever for anyone except people who I don't know hate their money and don't wanna take a hundred percent responsibility for it. There are no formulas. There are no set plans for you to follow. It's your money. What do you want to do with it investing? It's a personal journey that takes a lifetime. You spend decades accumulating capital, you spend decades investing it. You spend more decades hopefully living off of it and distribute it to your grandchildren and your heirs. So look I understand the desire to outsource investing because it's difficult, and it's something you want to get to right away. You don't wanna wait. Right. So you want to outsource if a pipe bursts in your kitchen, you don't get a book on plumbing at call a plumber? I have these giant fir-trees in my backyard, and when I need to get the dead branches cleaned out. So they don't fall my head and kill me. I know climb up there and do it myself. I pay someone else. So I I sort of almost understand. But you know, none of this is any excuse to treat your hard earned capital like a broken water pipe or a dead tree branch capital allocation is not an exercise in home repair or waste disposal. Okay. It's a skill. And he takes years to learn and develop and I believe you can no more outsource at than you can hire someone to digest your food. In my last few rance, actually, covered some of the big ideas that you should master. And that will help you get to know what kind of investor. You are right. If you few weeks ago, we said you have to master the skill of saving to be a great investor and to accumulate capital and to make better decisions later on. You must understand the difference between investment speculation. You must understand market cycles. Okay. Just a few of the things that will help you understand yourself as well as investing. So this week when I'm really telling us that the only person who can learn about these things and understand as you. You can't outsource your understanding. You can buy my research, you can buy my stock ideas. I can help you with that. But you can't buy my emotional conviction. You can't buy my understanding. I can relate it to you. But you need your own understanding. Now, I have a couple of recommendations, for example, in the model portfolio of my extreme value newsletter which I refuse to put any kind of trailing stop on. Right. If the price goes down fifty percent, I don't tell people to sell based on that information alone. Now, why do I do this? Because for me, these are long term investments, and I'm a long-term guy. And I understand these businesses vary. Well, they're not short term speculations. They're not medium-term speculations their long-term real investments. What makes them long term investments is my attitude and my understanding, right? Somebody could look at the exact same thing and treat it very differently because investing is personal to the person doing it. So it's not necessarily anything inherent in the businesses though. I would name several attributes to support my decision to treat them like long term investments. It's about my attitude, and my understanding and the truth is, you know, there's just there's no magic to any of this you either do the work that you need and possess the understanding that they need or you don't if you use other people's research in your personal quest for greater understanding. And I hope you'll use hours to do that. That's 'ideal. That's what you should be doing good for you. You get it. But if you think you can just sort of not understand anything very well in just slavishly, follow other people's advice without sufficient under forget it. You're gonna get killed. Trouble. You know, only you can figure out whether you have the right perspective too. It's just all on you. I'm sorry to have to want to actually I'm not sorry. I'm glad to be the one to tell you this just like everything else in your life. That's really worth doing how you treat. Your money is one hundred percent, you your your job, your responsibility. It's your chievements alone. If you invest successfully, no matter how much of my research, you might use and is your fault alone. If you fail. And of course, it's my fault. If I get things wrong, right? Nobody gets the credit for your success. But you nobody gets the blame for your failures. Nobody gets the credit for my success, but me nobody gets to blame. But me for my failures. Now, I'm in the latter half of my six decade. So I've had plenty of both successes and failures, and they were all my, okay. Damone ago. I said the finance industry is not on your side. Well, it's worse than that. You are not on your side. Human nature is just not built for investment success. What feels emotionally right is often financially disastrous. And what feels emotionally wrong is often financially prudent? What feels emotionally exciting is. Usually a giant mistake successful. Investing should probably not be very exciting the conventional sense. But again, that's for you to decide how you're going to do it and to make it more even more complicated than all this. You know, you can do the same action by the same amount of the same stock two different times at one time. It's genius move. And you're right spot on and the next time. It's totally wrong. Disastrous. I often recommend Howard marks book, the most important thing, it has eighteen most important things think about that. You think you'd learn something about yourself? If you studied that book and thought about the eighteen most important things, I think you would this guy has spent a lifetime. Transforming complex ideas into simple language that people can understand. And he can he can he can't cite fewer than eighteen most important thinks that's a pretty complicated undertaking, right? And you need to know yourself really really well to do that complicated undertaking of investing really well in needs to be your personal quest almost like a second career. It's like playing a musical instrument or becoming accomplished. Chef it's an art. It takes time you layer on your knowledge year after year and like playing musical instrument. You can't cram all that. Once you must do it a little bit every day for a long time, you need to do it for long enough in order to develop your own ideas about it, however long that takes us, however long that takes everybody's different. And it doesn't matter if everybody's buying internet stocks, and you're not it doesn't matter if somebody says you should invest in China right now. And you aren't it doesn't matter. Somebody like me, for example, says it's a good time to buy gold, and you aren't buying it. What matters is that you understand what you are doing. And like we said couple of weeks ago that you are not doing things that will destroy your capital. Investing is personal make that immutable. Truth worked in your favor. What's your personality? What assets are you drawn to do you like real estate? Do you like, you know, gold mining? It's a crazy business. But maybe you like it. You know, what do you like about them? Are you know, is that a correct assessment that you're basing that love of that asset on or have you misunderstood the nature of the asset? And you just heard about it from your brother in law dinner, something it's up to you to find out and decide that right? You need to learn about risk for yourself, you need to learn even if it's possible to invest, right? We're talking about speculation versus investment in previous podcast. Some some investments are investable others are just speculations. Right. I was saying that tesla is a pure speculation. You can invest in it because it's just not it doesn't have the safety of principle that you need for an investment. So you know, how many great investment books? Have you read? How many great investors have you known? You know enough. I hope before you start allocating capital. Are you a long term investor? Short term trader, right? Maybe a little one lot of the other. You you need to answer the stuff. I can't answer it for you, nor am I the least interested in giving you a false reference point by trying to answer it for you there your questions your answers. It would be totally irresponsible of me. I'm sorry. Totally irresponsible of me to provide you with anything. But you know, good luck Pat on the back. Here's some good books to read. Here's my research. Go get him. If you have specific issues regarding these answers, you know, that's another matter right in right in at feedback in investor our dot com, and I'll do it again. But I won't provide you with answers to the personal questions that everyone has to answer for himself K. And, you know, would you want me to it'd be like asking me to listen to your favorite piece of music and telling you what it sounded like you don't do that you listen to it yourself, and you allow to take all the time needs to wash over you and affect you. Okay. You can't follow anyone to investment success though. You can certainly be a responsible consumer of research and information. Right. The famous German psychologist Erich fromm said man's main task in life is to give birth to himself. Right. You also have to give birth to yourself as an investor right investing. It's your soul. Your personality, your dreams wants needs fears, and of course, your money. You know, it's it's like, none of my business. Really what you do with your money. Is it it's a hundred percent Europe business like Benjamin Graham, the value investing guru says investing is best when it's most business like and what I'm telling you today is it's your business minded, well, no your business, run your business. And if you don't run it you better know in. No, well, the person who is running it. Okay. You can't buy what you need to become a great investor. You can buy research, you can buy all kinds of books and tools and help, and you know, but the really important ability allocate your own capital, it has to be acquired by your own effort. It's a real skill. You can't borrow it. You have to acquire it. I'm honored that thousands of investors have chosen to make you know, my work. And frankly, you know, the work of stands vary a part of their own plans and strategies, but they all know that we can invest their money for him only you can do that. Investing as personal don't let anyone take it away from you. Don't let the thirties on Wall Street or anywhere else. Impress you with their prestige and make you believe investing some distant thing. What was that quote by Charles de Gaulle? He said something like a thority requires prestige and prestige requires distance right for you to be sort of overwhelmed by someone intimidated, they have to have a certain distance. And they they have to get that pristine Uson authority and all of it is just smoke and mirrors and B S, right? I mean, the, you know, the government's not going to protect you Wall Street's not going to protect you. Right. Remember that Bernie Madoff scandal. We talked about in episode ninety the podcast the government didn't protect anybody and made off your protecting. Anybody? You know, he wasn't even investing their money after a while. Right. So investing is personal keep investing personal an honest and real all your life. And I think he just might find yourself sitting on a substantial fortune one day. Okay. Look that's the rant. Obviously, I can go on about this because I feel strongly, but but I'll leave it there right in at feedback. An investor our dot com. And let us know what you think. Okay. Time time to find out. What's new in the world? Let's do that. Every week are capable producer. Justin Mattis gives me some stuff to contemplate for the news. And I don't always use. It all put he's got some real gems in here today. One of them. For example, is we'll talk about tesla. K we talk about tesla lot because we're certain that one day. This whole thing is just gonna fold like a house of cards, and and the stock has just roared, and you know, it's it's certainly come way off the highs now. But you know, it's it's it's tens of billions in market value for something that looks like it may not survive more than another year or two or three or whatever. And now they are taking two hundred thousand dollar deposits for their founders series semi trucks. Right. So they had their, you know, they're accepting the twenty thousand dollar deposits for the new semi truck that they came out with. But now they have something called the founder's series semi-truck. So they're collecting these two hundred thousand dollar deposits, and they recently had the the reveal the big reveal that their tesla model why which was a very curious undertaking in in itself, you know, people were broadcasting around the internet about how you know, the cars looked kind of suspiciously like a model three. And it was you know, it was just a very weird weird event. I'll just leave it at that you can Google it. But you know, the timing was also curious because right there there under regulatory screw. From the SEC, and you know, people are starting to call into question their cash balances. And you know, I mean, it doesn't make money. It's an early stage company still as the CEO is, you know, weirdo who says the weirdest things on Twitter. And now the sudden now they're going to come out with the founder series semi truck. It take these giant two hundred thousand dollar deposits. You know is this. I mean hate to suggest that they some kind of modified Ponzi scheme. But you know, Elon Musk is kind of on the books, you know, in public. He said things it's actually it's been implied that he has taken deposit money and used it for other things. So yeah. Seventy percent of Tesla's operating. Cash flow has come from customer deposits. I have to wonder if operating cash flow if customer deposits really ought to be classified in that manner. Weird situation. Very weird. Okay. This is a weird. This is speaking of really weird. This is this is funny. Apparently, there's some sort of a crazy video going around the internet with a guy and his wife testing for themselves the tesla autopilot feature and he's testing it by trying to run her over. And they do it a few times, they do it three times on the video. And the first time she has to run out of the way and the car did not hit. You know, it's supposed to automatically hit the brakes. Second time the car automatically hit the brakes. Third time she didn't trust anymore. So she puts her handbag in the road and the car breaks for the bag, but just knocks it over. So weird very weird. I mean, I don't know who's, you know, which one of those people has a has a more challenged IQ is at Tim her. I don't know what she's standing in front of the car. I don't know. We talked about Kraft Heinz in recent podcast. And I said that the consumer brands are it's not the same proposition. It used to be they used to be these forever wonderful businesses that you can count on. And then the the firm three g came in and levered up Kraft Heinz, and they levered up AB inbev, and they thought well, the these are forever brands, we don't have to worry about making money. We can just add some leverage and cut some costs. And the thing, you know, the stock will scream well craft Heintz just hit a fifty two week low because SNP the credit rating agency put them on credit watch negative. So that's your own watch for a credit downgrade at that point. Excuse me. There were put on credit watch negative due to their failure to file their annual report with the SEC even after the deadline was extended, and you know, they recently wrote down fifteen billion dollars on their craft and Oscar Mayer brands tell you this those consumer brands are not the business. They used to be. All right now, there's something else. I wanna talk to you about. The company called fidelity information services. The ticker symbols f I s they're buying another company called world pay a UK company, and I would submit to you. This is the type of thing you see this type of buyout activity. You see toward the end of the cycle actually last week in the last podcast. We talked about cycles. So just real quick. These companies are in the the they. Offer the technology provide the technology underlying the global payment system, right people using checks and cash less and less and less and using cards and electronic forms of payment, more and more. So that requires these big payments systems, you know, and. So FIS is paying thirty five billion for UK based world pay that's about roughly speaking nine times revenue ninety eight times net income and fifty five times free, cash flow and twenty four times enterprise value over EBITDA, that's us. That's us soaring. That's a huge high price right in the end and the deal is valued. If you add all the debt and everything it's valued at like forty two billion. That's where you get the EV over to just in August seventeenth, a company called vantage bought world pay and took on the world pay name and the deal price. Then in August two thousand seventeen was ten billion. So we're more than triple that. Now, not two full years later. That's the kind of stuff you see near the end of the cycle. One. More end of cycle bid for you. Two thousand seventeen we saw the biggest private equity fund ever. Right. Apollo raised a twenty five billion dollar private equity fund in July twenty seventeen and in June of that year. CBC capital is the because European private equity fund round nineteen billion twenty eighteen. What do we see record a activity, right? New York Times reported two and a half trillion of Manet activity, mergers and acquisitions in the first half two thousand eighteen there was a record number of private equity buyouts in two thousand eighteen more than five thousand deals for you know, round half a billion or I'm sorry. Half a trillion bucks. Twenty nineteen. Calpers the California pension system. They're saying hold my beer. Okay. Hold my beer Cletus of watch this. They're doubling down on private equity there. They wouldn't put another twenty billion into private equity. Let me tell you something folks at the end of the cycle the pension funds day, go for whatever toxic waste. Everybody else has already bought this is standard end of cycle stuff. Beware. You heard here. I okay. All right. That that's that's all the news that I'm going to get to for today. We have a great guest and let let's get her on right now. All right. It's time for our guest today. Her name is no me, Prinz know me as renowned journalist. She's a former international investment banker author and speaker her new book collusion, how central bankers rigged the world explores the recent rise of the role of central banks in the global financial economic hierarchy. Her other books include historical novel about the nineteen twenty nine crash black Tuesday and the hard hitting expose it takes a pillage behind the bonuses bailouts and backroom deals from Washington. To Wall Street, she's also the author of other people's money the corporate mugging of America chosen as a best book of two thousand four by the economist Barron's and library journal. She's appeared on numerous TV programs, internationally and nationally, including CNN CNBC, MSNBC C-SPAN democracy now, FOX and PBS. Wow. Her writing has been featured in the New York Times Forbes fortune Newsday and she's. Gonna be with us this year at the stands berry alliance conference in Las Vegas. I can't wait for that. Please welcome. No me prince a nomi-, welcome to the program. Inch. Oh, I can't wait till the Vegas conference. I just have to say, I I'm so excited to be a part of it. And I really love Vegas. So that's all awesome. You're gonna have a blast. So no me. I hope this isn't too awkward. I'm going to I have to read a sentence from your book. And it's not even in the main text, it's in the acknowledgements. And I just I've been dying to get you on the program. So I could talk about this. It says, quote, I have experienced this planet in a manner that has expanded my way of thinking in unimaginable ways, end quote. You have got to tell me about that. Wow. I didn't. That's the good acknowledgement sentence. I should use the in other books. I am. I mean, I traveled so much for this particular book for collision, but I have traveled throughout my career in my life as well. It was just that, you know, sometimes when a circle comes into full close, it's it's really impactful and for this book, I was in China Japan. It was all throughout Europe. I was all throughout South America, Mexico, and the US and so forth, and it was just really I opening to return in particular, China, actually, where I had I gone as a junior banker back when I was working for Lehman Brothers, which of course, no longer exists and had been able to visit so many central banks both in China, the People's Bank of China and throughout that area that it was really interesting for me to come. After this whole experience of being a journalist writing books program markets from a whole other perspective talking to governments and so forth and just return. Thing to see how things have changed and also what has remained the same since them both from the standpoint of just the the city, the country, etc. But as well as just central Bank policy where things are. So it was a very interesting experience for me, researching the book everywhere and also comparing that to sort of my earlier days of a Bank or had done a tremendous amount of travel to similar places. Cool. So I'm really glad to have you. Because you a whole lot about something. I know almost nothing about and I had this stock question that I've been asking people who are experts on central banking, and you sort of you answer it quite a bit actually in your book. But maybe just for our listeners, my my stock questions this everybody likes to say that that, you know, the fed eases and it inflates markets, but nobody ever draws me a map from fed easing all the way to a record high in the us and P five hundred and I wonder if. In the limited time, we have you could help me help help me do that. Yeah. So that's that's a really good question. Because also the idea of inflation, you know, where it's economic or market are two different things than from the standpoint of artificially inflating the markets, which which which I concur has been what's happened. The steps are really this. You know in the financial crisis happened in really two thousand seven, but when the world became aware of it more in in two thousand eight and of course, in the fall of two thousand eight the fed, of course, decided to make the availability of money of capital to the financial system super cheap. I eat at zero percent so banks could effectively get money from the fed at zero percent, which you know, is is is a good option for them to not have to repay interest on money, and plus they had money that was part of their deposits their assets and so forth as a result. They were able to also offload on the fed and this happened in central banks throughout the world. Which is what I call it collusion. Assets. Bonds treasury bonds mortgage bonds things they had on their books that there wasn't really a market for at the time. Things have been very tightened up because there was such a fear with respect to the crisis. But by the fed allowing money to be cheap. And by the fed also imposing what was called the quantitative easing policy, which effectively just meant they were buying bonds different maturity throughout the yield curve in the US and other central banks. Did it around the world they provided even more money into the system which made that money cheaper for longer rates? It also meant that banks could Mark their books up because there's a buyer. That's like if you got junk in your attic, and nobody wants it. And all of a sudden you have like junk addict sale and some person in your neighborhood buys that little dusty lamp that you have that your great great grandmother, how that was in a corner, but like doesn't work in you know, is particularly of an attractive, but they buy it at some crazy amount because they want to all of a sudden all the other lamps you've gotten your adequate attractive, and that's what happened. And the said provided money bought bonds, it may the banks able to evaluate the level the buns they had left upward which meant the market could be valuated upward even though. There was no real buying going on. It was coming from the central Bank all that put more money into the financial system that money had to go somewhere and one of the places that it went because it's easy to access was the stock market. It's it's easy you and I can buy stocks. You can buy options. Yeah. So can lots of trading deaths than hedge funds and so forth around the world. So can central banks not the said, but other central banks can buy stocks and do. And so this was a way that kind of globally elevated all of the stock markets in the world as a result. We see now that the Dow is up about three times from what it was about Tripoli mouth that it was in the aftermath of the financial crisis from March of two thousand nine so ten years ago and GDP growth hasn't really inflated by as much, and that's one major indicator. That we can look at to see how that money didn't necessarily go into the real economy. US GDP has not been above three percent for any two years since the financial crisis in a row growth, but the market is tripled. That's where the money went. There's also a lot of studies just wrap up with this. This point real quick in my chapter on Brazil. I met one of the researchers out the central Bank of Brazil, and we don't think about the central Bank of Brazil that much, but it was interesting because he compiled all the data from all the central banks, and he did this analysis, which I talk about an reference in the book where there was an exact correlation and between what the central banks were doing in terms of putting money into the markets on any given day and the jump in the market on any given day. And and I I actually did that same analysis with the feds own minutes in their own books. So there is analysis around if you wanna get wonky, but but there's data and the trend of. Money that ultimately went from central banks into the stock markets in particular. Well, so people there's someone actually studying the answer to my question. That's cool. And and you pro to in Brazil AMI. Yes. Okay. Well, good. I'm glad I got all my personal questions out of the way. So maybe we should go backwards. Your book is about recent history. But you know, more recently, we've seen the fed kind of change gears. We saw the president tweeting about how the fed was raising rates too fast. And then totally unexpectedly to me. They just turned more dovish on rates, and they. I totally did not expect that did you expect it? I did I I actually wrote about it. I I was on FOX actually right in December before the Fed's minutes were released the of the FOMC meeting their market committee meeting that December where they did raise rates by twenty five basis points, which is the fourth rate hike as they had promised for for twenty eighteen and I was on the show. I remember saying to plan the host. I'm like, you know, I don't think they're going to raise rates because and I was wrong. But because not necessarily of what President Trump had said. But because the economic slowdown data was coming in didn't mean at the fed was necessarily always looking at that data, but it was coming. And so if they wanted to become more dovish, he was the excuse and the reality to an extent, but both to do that. And I said to him and if that doesn't happen. I believe they're not going to raise rates at least till the end of next year. So I I did say that I I was wrong about that twenty five basis point hike. But what happened was really quickly is after that hiking. We opened the markets in January of this year. And they're really unhappy Mark it's really going down because they ultimately wanted this dovish nece to to return, and the sort of availability of cheap money to to continue in a way, they could be reliant upon right? So they're all upset and instantly. It looked like, but this has been discussed at the fed internally, but instantly three fed officials, including fed chairman Jerome Powell, go onto different programs and do different speeches Powell and in New York City, different speeches to say, look, you know, we're gonna be patient. Now, we're going to look more at the data and kind of changed the appearance and ultimately the behavior of of their policy. For now into going from what was hawkish, and what looked like it was hawkish to what was dovish looking at the same data, but just coming to a different conclusion. And the reason for all of that was because the markets were doing what they did in two thousand sixteen which is that in December two thousand fifteen the fed raise rates for the first time in seven years by twenty five basis points, and there was a tanking in the markets when they opened in January and the fed did not raise rates again for the entire year until one more twenty five basis point hike in December of two thousand sixteen and Powell sitting there in Washington, and yes, President Trump has talked about how the fed should not be raising rates because he doesn't want them to choke the economy, but it wasn't really just or about the economy. It was about the markets, and it was about banks. It was about all the same stuff and all the uncertainty. That's in the world right now in the fed basically turned around and said, you know, what we need to have an excuse. We need to have you. Reasons that we discussed publicly as to why we are now going dovish, and they all do that. And they're still continuing to to do that Trump was on sixty minutes. Last Sunday, basically reiterating that exact same idea being gradually being patient and looking at the data and saying lots of things that indicated that rate hikes for the moment, we're off the table when I think about the fed I think golly, how the truth will out because I feel like as time goes on and you sort of hinted at this in the very end of your book. It's like the fed is being found out, and it's becoming more transparent that they're just about supporting asset prices. That's really what's going on here, and it becomes more and more transparent over time. And you know, you even cited reasons why people should think about, you know, the addition of the renminbi to special drawing rights of the IMF, and by we gold, and bitcoin and things have become a little more popular. And I don't know. It's kind of you gave me hope. You gave me hope that one day. This will all go away and that will have sound money again. And you expressed you know, the the same in your book. There's there's this balance between what what you've just sat down and what I have agreed on and then written about or. Yeah. Since the financial crisis, basically become the takes the pillage. I wrote about the asset pricing, you know, support and the the sort of artificial stimulus to the markets of the fed at the time, and what was going to happen here. We are ten years later talking about it. And in fact, it has raised asset prices book prices as well as the markets, and that's been artificial, you know, even participants in the stock market who benefited from it, if they turn around and think about how they've benefited will realize that, you know, some of that's just artificial which makes it harder to really analyze market's going forward without incorporating this behavior central banks, which which you have to do which which which is necessary right now. However, yes, there are kind of turn. Natives that arose kind of in contrast to what the fed and went required of other major central banks to do in the wake of the financial crisis. Which is. Yeah. The remember the Chinese currency has become Dopp pid by the I m s into what they call the DR, their their standard drawing rights basket. And all that meant was we're not all I mean, it was kind of a big deal accession say and all that meant. But basically what that meant was that the proportion of currencies that were in that basket that to them represented the major reserve currencies or traded currencies in the world was extended from simply the US the Japanese yen, the British pound and Willie. What would it? I was the French franc deutschmark, but became the euro into including also the Chinese currency, and and that was kind of a major big deal because all of a sudden someone outside of the g seven outside of this sort of creation. As a country was was involving its currency in in this basket representation of the major currencies in the world. And that that was a major shift and part of the reason that happened was it the People's Bank, China, the central Bank of China pushed for and why were they able to get through then because as an argument they fill the fed is distorting markets. You know, the side is creating a policy that that that's making markets more efficient and less transparent than before. And, you know, we at least need to, you know, adopts something else around the dollar and around the fed because of that, and that was one of the major reasons that the INS beyond some personal relationships between Christine Lagarde and the head of the People's Bank of China, and so forth happened and also at the same time. China was developing a trade relationships and currency relationships outside of the US dollar with countries in that region with countries throughout the world to sort of stablishment alternative. Platform of currencies of trade and so forth. Just just from a payment perspective, and that's been growing, obviously, bitcoin blockchain technology behind bitcoin has been growing too. I I have issues with with with with bitcoin and with crypto currency because I you know, they're not secure enough. I think to become sort of dominant yet, and there's a long way to go to do that. But between these two things are just alternatives to the current sort of dollar-based system that said they're growing very slowly. And so though, there is reason behind it. And though there's growth it's not it's not really significant yet. So yes, there is hope like, but we have to have to quote, their own Powell a lot of patients to get to something that looks more Representative of of the world and not necessarily the US or fed policy. Okay. So knowing all this stuff that you. No. And and and we all sort of know, we all agree. You know, the fed the fed makes the market go up. I saw CitiBank report that actually said right in the report. We all know how this ends. Why isn't it priced in yet? Which I thought was amazing for for city. You know? Well, that's what I mean. Those it's interesting that city so that because they were certainly recipients of of just a lot of the benefit of this policy in the crisis that kept them alive. Clearly, they got bailed out they got money from the fed. They got loans all sorts of things. I it's it's interesting and there's other banks doing even Goldman Sachs. I think had a had a not so much about the fed, but kind of on that idea that like thinks could could falter quickly. But that's that's where that's where the city of what happened to markets and by central banks during this this last ten year period like can't be understated. It was such an immense program. The low rates for such a long time that were considered, you know, an emergency measure over ten years ago and are still going on quantitative easing to the tune of twenty two trillion dollars throughout the world from just the major central banks in the world. And I I just I break that out in the book as have other people. It's it's it's a lot of money. If you look at how that. Leverage is into into these markets. It goes a really long way. And that's one of the reasons why even though you know, we we who study this who even just have a sense about it. We'll even don't study it that much realize that there's something kind of artificial. That's happened. It's so meant that it's carried and continues to carry market's upward from just a sheer pragmatic standpoint. Because it's still available this policy. An and things haven't crashed even though it's it's based on ultimately, a really really really big pile of sand. But it's a really big pile. When they go on a beach near look at a huge pile like which is sound it's going to take a long time and a lot of wind and a lot of rain and a lot of sort of other causes to beat it down. And that's what we're seeing is that that they meant city of this whole process the US stock market, for example, evaluated about all this tax about thirty four trillion dollars. And and not amount if you even look at the leverage from a fed policy that that was between four and four and a half trillion dollars of quantitative easing or subsidy net of the cheap money into this evaluation. You know, you're looking at a very high leverage. So it's not just the sad. But it's all the all the actors in the market, all the banks all the players all the funds all the people all the speculation that that is predicated on the team money can create a large chunk of that thirty four trillion. Let me sort of multiply that throughout the world. So it's not stable, but it's big. And that's one of the reasons why things haven't crashed, you know, to the extent that you know, if you really did beat the sandcastle down or you did take out the carpet, that's you know, sort of their to secure the rest of the market out from under it would would happen in in any sort of a normal situation because we're not in a normal situation. Roy. We're in Chuck prints land. Right. The music is playing all dancing. That's right. That's exactly right. You're not gonna come to work. If you're, you know, a financial professional and say, I can't do my job because it's all going to fall apart someday. Now, in fact, it's it's it's more that which is again, why one of the reasons the markets been planned for so long as that. If you're doing your job on if you're looking at what's happening. You also see you can't ignore that. It's happening either. You you can't not do anything because you're afraid of what might happen. And and you can't not do anything because you know, what is happening, you know, this as as as artificial as the stimulus has been for as long as it's been, you know, predicate on central Bank policy in everything that unleashed it still exists. The can't you can't ignore its existence either. And that's again, why why every time a central Bank leader, you know, whether it's your own Powell at the fed, whether it's Mario Draghi at the pan central Bank. You know, says, hey, we're going to continue our policy of quote stimulating the economy, which is code for stimulating the markets and has been since the beginning of it the markets go up, it's it's it's just like confirmation. It's like it's their markets are very needy. I mean, they're like like. Check. Right. I mean, and it's like if you get confirmation. It's like, okay fine. I'll go out with you. And and that sort of what's going on both agree to knows you. I've never heard that. That's hilarious. I wonder if I could ask you just change. Here's a little bit. You did mention like trade with China when you're speaking before. So help me understand the headlines here, I tend to think of this trade with China business in a very pure kind of almost theoretical economic way. I don't like protectionism. I think it, you know, has bad effects. But. What what is your take? How do you see all this trade business with Jonah ultimately playing out or or not? I mean, I I don't know how it goes. But what does it mean to you? I am having been there a lot and having been in the United States. I I, you know, there's a huge apple store in the middle of the most, you know, busy part of Beijing, which is busy all the time. Right. So, you know, and that's just one example imagine that you know, it's like it. And and the reality is we are in such an globalized world from the standpoint of money and markets, and international companies that having tariffs or having trade wars between countries it is an imposition. It does detract from overall sort of real economic growth in those countries because it it it. You know, sort of invokes uncertainty until like, well, how are things going to look is it really going to cost twenty five percent more to import something into the United States. Okay. Well, let's find another partner where we have to cut back on production. You know, if if it costs twenty five percent for soybeans to be imported into China. China's buying soybeans from US flavors than the farmers either have to find another way or another place to sell that. Or they're going to be losing money, and then they can't pay their bills. And then they can't by stopping there's there's there's real impacts of of these sorts of tariff wars, and we are seeing that it's one of the reasons not the only one, but but there is real economic slowdown throughout the world in the US, and so forth them, it's why our GDP popped up to four point two percent on some soybeans subsidies. And now it's back down below three percent. So it's it's it's it's a reason on the other hand ultimately. Money does an international companies do kinda surge forward into each other. Which is one of the reasons we saw record high mergers and acquisition deals last year. And it's likely they'll continue into this year. And in many of them are cross-border because it's like companies are going about their business of of increasing. If they can if that's in their MO, global market share, and they'll continue to do that, regardless of what politicians are doing with respect to each other on a sort of geopolitical international basis talking about trade. So I think ultimately a lot of the trade wars will subside. But it's it's like the market coming down after being stimulated so long except the opposite. Which is that there's going to be damaged, and there has been damaged on economically into real product and service providers along the way, I was just writing a piece this morning on on on Europe in the US. Like, no one's talking about it because everybody's focused on the US and China, and what's going to happen with those with that tunnel Greenman or discussions, but you know, there's a deadline approaching with respect to add tariffs on cars and car parts coming from Europe to the United States, which is set to go off on may eighteenth. So in two months, no one's really talking about that. So all these things are lingering drags. But I think ultimately, and it will take time because we have politicians kind of involved. You know, I think there will be resolutions. It's just again, they'll be paying along the way. So I'm glad you mentioned Europe. Because I was going to ask you about Brexit next in the same general vein. I look at it as a pure economic exercise. And I and like you say, they're real economic consequences to do you. See that similarly. Yeah, there there there have been. I mean, no one told. Yeah. And whether someone rooted for against Brexit back in June, twenty sixteen no one really laid out. Because it was a political move the economics one way or the other of of what what what things could look like inflex, it either went through or if what we have in the interim since then all of a sudden certain to you about you know, what it might look like or whether it gets revoted or whether it's delayed or whatever. And so all the information. I don't think the people in in parliament understood what what the implications were. And as a result. They didn't really tell people what the implications whereas a result. I think the vote was based on a lot of non-economic. Reactions which you know, people are welcome to have. But, but as a result, what's happened is that, you know, the UK economy has declined a lot of uncertainty has come into the service sector wages have not increased extent that they might have otherwise because there's less hiring going on with companies that are doing trade with the EU because they don't know what's going to happen. And so again that drag that uncertainty drag has has hurt the economy, and then you sort of add into that the fact that parliament itself looks like a complete mess 'cause they they. You don't really know what they're doing? And this is on both sides of a conservative. This is this is labor, and this is just like in general because they're not having your haven't really had a real economic analysis of every single piece of what could happen with or without a Brexit. But you know, at the moment, it looks like the votes going to be delayed as was the deadline for the US and China, which originally it's March first entree talks has it probably will be on March on may eighteenth for the US, and the EU it will be delayed whether there's another referendum or not referendum or not is unclear and what it would look like is unclear because there's there's so much sort of political discourse on in both parties about that. But it looks like it'll be delay though. Create more uncertainty, and again, probably flexible them in a mergers and acquisitions across the border to just get sort of market share security. In the meantime, while it's all being sorted out. And sort it out. Could mean nothing happens. Right, right. So no, just for the sake of our listeners and even for me too. Because I I don't know a whole lot about this. Why can't the u k trade with Europe without being a member of the EU? It it can the thing is this because there a member of the EU, and this goes back to what I was thinking about terrorists before there's a lot of trae that happens that doesn't have imposed upon it taxes to go back and forth. Let it services or products across the border through customs and so forth, particularly in food and other other items. And so if if there if if the UK were to leave the EU by definition of the agreement by which they joined the EU and nine hundred ninety nine all of a sudden, technically without negotiation all of that would would would change. And and so that's that's a real economic cost on on both European companies and to two British companies because of a sudden you have to incorporate tariffs you didn't have to incorporate. So yes, they can. And they will continue to trade because they have to these ranging major trading partners with each. Other. But all of a sudden, you know, there's there's all these extra costs involved, and therefore there's all this uncertainty. And there's, you know, we'll do we just create services and Frankfurt for banks, which you know, is is not as fun as London in London. I wouldn't wanna live in Frankfurt. But of all these other other like in decisions come into play because of the actual economic costs that doesn't exist right now under the old membership to the U or sue. So no me I hate to tell you this. We've sort of come to the end of our time here. But I I want you to let's see I'm going to sort of impose upon you here to try to leave us with something that makes folks when it come and see you at the stands berry conference because I really think they should I think you're one of the people they should definitely come and see. Well, first of all, I hope everyone is listening does come because I just think it's going to be super fun and super informative. I'm really looking forward to it. And obviously. Anybody's questions on on their own portfolios state of the world state of life. Whatever, you know, all sort of on the table, and I think that will be really interesting to to dig through. And I think between now, and then there's there's a lot of things that are going to happen in the world by date by deadline, and by you know, economic and market mechanisms that'll make it more necessary to to to think about you know, that last quarter of the year, including whether Brexit happens, including what occurs with respect to deadline between the US and China what we're what what happens with respect to the US and the what happens between the US and Canada and Mexico. What happens with central banks, you know, just Powell at the last quarter turn around and go hawkish. Does he stay dovish? You know, these these and more questions and sort of like, a cliffhanger thing. So I think in particular it's going to be a super pivotal time. When the conference does happen and again Vegas. It's really fun as well. L? And so I think that all altogether. It will be there'll be a lot of information trading around as well as I think just different tastic. I know you have other fantastic speakers. And and and and all of your conferences are fabulous. And so I just think this one in particular will be awesome. And I look forward to seeing everyone I'm going to sum that up for folks with everything that is likely to happen between now, and then you'll wish that you had come and see, you know, what we talk if you did. So so join us in Vegas, and no he thanks a lot for being here today. I love your book thing. I actually I I haven't read the whole thing. But I've I've dipped into it read the beginning and most of the ending, and I've dipped into all your discussions about Mexico and Brazil in Europe. And it's really it's frac dole. You know, your book is because the overall arc of the argument is present in each of these the smaller sections. It's really good. So thanks for saying that thank you. Thank you so much or hopefully, we'll talk to you soon. But bye bye for now. All right. Thanks that was awesome. Talkies in Boba. All right folks, time for the mail bag. Unfortunately, nobody wrote in this week actually some people wrote in. But but I swear to you. I'm being honest, they wrote into say the nicest things, and that's all they said, we're nice things. I'm getting a lot of Email from people saying nice things. So what I would tell you is. You know, if you liked what you heard today if you hated what you heard today, please write in at feedback in investor our dot com. And I really would like you to go back and listen to the last few episodes starting from episode ninety with Jim grant, there's a lot of really good stuff in each of these interviews that I think pertains especially well to what's going on in the world right now. And and you know, I think you'll agree. Today's interview is really pertaining to exactly what's happening right now. And and we just keep find. These guests who can shed light on things that you really probably are very concerned about so go back. Listen to recent episodes right in at feedback in investor our dot com, and yes, I'm going to be a little, you know, I'm going to tell myself a little bit. I think the last few rance or something that kind of constitute the last four including today, there's a progression there. And you know, I talk about the things you need. There's just all about the things you need to do even before you can just buy one share of stock or one share or one bond or one anything. So maybe go back and listen to some of those download them. Listen to him. If you haven't already and hit us up at feedback in investor our dot com. Okay. So that is another episode of the stands berry investor. Our thank you so much for listening. Be sure to check out our reasonably revamped website where you can listen to all the episodes and C show transcripts, and I get a lot of questions about the transcript now. The most recent episode isn't always there right away. But it's there within a few days, but for any given episode you just click on that episode and scroll all the way down the transcript starts right at the bottom. Okay. So just go to that same address, WWW dot investor our dot com. That's it for this week. Thank you so much once again, I will talk to you next week. Bye bye. Thank you for listening to the stands. Berry investor our to access today's notes and received notice of upcoming episodes, go to investor our dot com and enter your Email have a question for Dan, send him an Email at feedback in investor our dot com. This broadcast is provided for entertainment purposes, only and should not be considered personalized investment advice. Trading stocks and all other financial instruments. Involves risk. You should not make any investment decision based solely on what you hear stands. Berry investor hours produced by stands berry research and is copyrighted by stands berry radio network.

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How To Be A Food Activist In Your Own Kitchen with Vani Hari

The Doctor's Farmacy with Mark Hyman, M.D.

1:09:00 hr | Last week

How To Be A Food Activist In Your Own Kitchen with Vani Hari

"Coming up on this episode of the Doctors Pharmacy. So foods not regulated. The information I'm getting being told is being manipulated five three companies. So it benefits them not me in my health you start to realize. The only thing that you could do is to take control of your health and understand what you're putting in your body, and once you understand that you start reading ingredient labels and then you go. I get it. Everyone Dr Mark I'm all about the benefits of healthy fats and I've had some patients find that a high-fat Keto Diet is the best way to support better cognition Lewisham stubborn belly fat and even reverse signs of aging. But often hear them say that it can be really hard to stick to. Especially they're busy lives and they need food they can grab on the go. So when I found perfect Hito I was really excited. One of my favorite items from perfect Hito is our nut butters there may with M. C. T. oil macadamia nuts, cashews, and coconut on their. Plenty of healthy fats in there to keep you fuller longer plus they have amazing flavors like chocolate, hazelnut, almond butter, and Jelly snicker doodle and Macadamia Vanilla formulated tastes great while keeping you in Ketosis, my favourite is a chocolate hazelnut I. Love that it comes an easy receivable squeezed pack. It's really handy for traveling there. Kito cookies are also a really tasty way to enjoy an occasional healthy treat. They went through more than ten recipes combined with rigorous blood and ketone testing to make sure they're cookies didn't. Spike. Blood Sugar. Since. Turning my patients and friends on a perfect heat I've had multiple people tell me they find it much easier to stick with their diet. I'm all about finding Diet works best for your unique body but whatever it is, it's important to be prepared with different options. So you don't get stuck in a food emergency. If you're trying Kito be sure to check out perfect Hito snacks and keep some of them on hand to help you stay successful right now is a great time to stock up. They're offering doctors, pharmacy listeners, twenty percents off plus free shipping with the Code Dr Mark. Just go to perfect Kito Dot com for slash Dr Mark. Sdr Marta and use the code Dr Mark To, get twenty percents off from shipping and make sure you try their nut butters and Kito cookies when the krona buyers hit the US one of the biggest complaints we heard from people trying to stock up your supplies at home was the lack of toilet paper on store shelves. Obviously, we all want to feel clean and fresh after going to the bathroom but you might be surprised that we don't need toilet paper for that to happen in many other parts of the world people primarily used days to clean themselves after using the bathroom and then only a few squares of toilet paper to dry off. And if you think about it, that makes a Lotta sense one hundred cleans better than paper. So you might be wondering what using today has to do with your health and wellness. Well I have a few good answers for you. When you use toilet paper, you leaving a residue of stool and bacteria no matter how much you wipe. The bacteria can spreading. It can cause infection not to mention that it can take some of the most sensitive skin on your body and for women. Toilet paper can actually perpetuate bladder and use infections when used incorrectly or insufficiently excessive wiping can also irritate her cause complications hemorrhoids. The likelihood of these problems increases with USA wet wipes wet wipes actually tend to strip away the natural awesome your skin, and they're terrible for the amendment using him as an amazing solution. All these problems you can even turn your current toilet into one with the Toshiba Day attachment just hooks up your water supply and give you the same spa experience right in your own bathroom. Using a touchy myself a few and I love it, it's really affordable. It just seventy nine dollars and you can stall yourself without a plumber to check out the tissue attachment for yourself and get ten percent off head over to Hello Toshi dot com for slash hyman. That's Hello Toshiki US H. Y. dot com slash hyman that's a special deal for doctors pharmacy listeners so don't wait too long it's hello to she dot com slash hyman and no let's get back to this week's episode of the Doctors Pharmacy Welcome Doctors Pharmacy. I'm Dr Mark Hyman that's pharmacy within F. F. A. R. Mac y place for conversations of matter, and if you care about all the weird crap in our food and want to know what to do to protect yourself and your family healthy while avoiding the crap and changing the food system, you should listen this conversation because it's with my good friend Vanni Harry, who is a food activist she is. Unbelievable Force of nature that has changed giant companies brought them to their knees had them quivering and shaking in their boots and change their food products and show the power of a one person can do to make a difference. So I am so excited to have you on the podcast Bonnie and I wanNA tell people a little bit about you. You have been named one of the most influential people on the Internet by Time magazine, which is no small feat You're a revolutionary activists behind the movement called the food is Babe Movement a food dot. com is your website you founded with another person, the organic, Food Brown True Vanni, and you're the New York Times bestselling author of the Food Babe, way great book, and feeding you lies, which is about how the food industry dupes us into buying all kinds of crap and it was an important book that I read that helped me think about the things that I wrote about in food fiqh. So your book was really influential and I think everybody needs to read it. It's a little scary, but there's a lot of hope within too. So that's good. She has done some crazy stop. Lead campaigns against food giant Kraft starbucks chick fillet subway general mills has gotten over five hundred thousand signatures on petitions to get them to change what they're doing. She's done this in a way that led to the removal of several really nasty ingredients that were used these food companies in our food that we just are blind to She's used corporate activism for sins, social media campaigns. and. She and her food babe army had become one of the most powerful populist forces in health and food industries I mean, no kidding. This young lady has literally changed big companies and ways that I never thought possible She's really driven incredible changing the Food Center new company Trevisani producers real food without chemicals, additives, toxins, and with labels that are really clear with no lies on the label toes no feeding you lies only feeding your real food. She's been profiled New York Times in the Atlantic. And appeared on. Good. MORNING AMERICA CBS this morning CNN Dr. Oz and NPR she lives in Charlotte with their family and a new baby on the way. So welcome Bonnie. Dr Mark Hyman you've been such an inspiration to me throughout my journey of being a food blogger and food activist, and it just means so much to be able to sit down and have this conversation with you i. wish we could do this and cursing right now because I wanted to give you a great big hug and. How we definitely on a hug deficit. It is part of our mental health is hugging day. So soon soon I want to start off by reading a section from your last book feeding you lies which was not that long ago on encouraging people to get a copy of it. It's comparatively shows what people can do if they take up a stand and do something because we all feel powerless and hopeless but you showed how we don't have to be said in your book, I along with my food babe army of fellow activists, campaign food companies to persuade them to remove unhealthy additives or disclose ingredients in their products that they weren't disclosing as A. Result of our efforts craft dropped the artificial dyes, yellow five and six from avas Mac and cheese products because you pointed out by the way that in the UK and Europe, they don't allow that crap in the food and they make the stuff without it in America there poisoning the kids and don't bother to take it out. It's like, Hey, do it and they did with little pressure. After this you know you work with other major food companies and conglomerates like general, mills, Mars Hershey's Nestle and Kellogg's which vowed to get all the artificial colors out of their food. In the coming years a subway eliminated this risky dough conditioner Azo Dye Qarbata my from its Brad after your petition and and and most other brands followed suit and by the way the chemical. In there as well, Die Carbonneau might it's it's an Yoga Mat and you had this great scene where you basically held a yoga man front of a subway to eat it and in in detail how bad this chemical is in. Singapore, if if a company uses it in their food, they get fined four hundred and fifty thousand dollars and they spend fifteen years in jail. So think about that and we're all eating at every day general mills dumping the controversial T, which is beauty related hydroxy tall you in why would you wanna eat something called bad in your food from cereal's just as it did overseas. So there you're pushing these companies to change Panera bread got rid of a hundred fifty artificial ads from its products including artificial colors be ht nitrates, high fructose, corn syrup MSG that's hidden hydrogenated oils all his crap was in these foods we think are healthy. Bread it's a healthy restaurant, but really isn't. Now maybe a little better paltry did away with all the GMO ingredients and there's a just a few changes that you made. So these are huge changes. These are not small things and it shows the power of a single person, an activist who activates other people to care about what we put our bodies. So take us back to how you started this journey and why did the quality of ingredients in food health of our role become your Life Pasha who started out as a consultant for a big consulting company working in business and and took a right turn into uncharted territory with no roadmap and no likelihood or or idea of how you succeed. In I didn't set out to be an activist it really happened by accident. and. It happened because as a child I was severely set I mean on several medications. XM All over my body? As a always just you know having a very allergic reaction to every season just always feeling under the weather or having a stomach ache and I still like a Zombie for most of my life and it wasn't until my early twenties where I hit rock bottom where I was overweight I was working this job in the rat race lifestyle trying to keep up with my co workers and just work through breakfast lunch dinner and whatever's we catered it. Sent into the office that. I've finally made a choice in it took being hospitalized getting my pending. And taking a long time to recover from that surgery to finally say, okay, enough's enough and what I did was I channel all this energy that I learned in high school where I was a top tier debater and was recruited. John Explains Everything. Okay. College to debate was number one in state three years in a row. I did policy debate. So when you're stop, it was healthcare and I was using that information to win the bait rounds in high school but I wasn't using that information to affect my health. But. I finally realized like remembering everything that I've learned because you had to learn both sides of an argument affirmative negative in debate both sides that the healthcare system is really screwed up and the food system is up and so what I did back then which you know we didn't have Google when I was going through high school I learned how to research the hard way go to the library checkout periodicals. Lauderdale's you look through the microfiche, all that kind of stuff, and so I went to the library to learn about health and how to improve my health and lose weight feel better and one of the first books that I came across was actually by. Gabriel cousens. Much just eating and he had this concept in there that just it just hit you know hit my head so hard that I was like. What have I been doing and what he says in this book, is that the majority of foods on a grocery store shelf dead dead sued, and that's How I fell for most of my life was dead. I felt like a Zombie and so I was like. Okay I. got it. I. GotTa Eat Alive Food. I gotta eat real food that comes from nature, and so I slowly started to make these changes and then finding alternatives societies that didn't eat kind of the garbage out there did the processed food were going to the fast foods and trying to find these different you know a role models and books and other things horse one of your first books ultra metabolism background. I came across and I was like, yes, this is it right and And so I started to make changes everyone around me was like bottle what's going on? You look like a completely different person you don't look anything like you used to do. Yeah. Before and after pictures up on your website, you can't even tell it's the same person. Walkman. Your face your skin. You. Look like an inflamed message, one picture and a beautiful healthy person in the next and it's just it's an unbelievable change. And I look back. At this pictures of when I was. So inflamed needs is really that's what it was. It's just inflammation of mine tire body and. When I look back at this picture, I feel the pain that I used to feel and you ask me, you know what drives your passion quality ingredients and doing this work. It's that feeling of I don't want anyone to feel that way and I know there are so many people out there that feel that way right now in name new idea how easy it is to stop feeling that way and make a change for the better in their full life, impro-. I'll tell you mark there's no way I would have been able to be an activist and help inspire these changes. If I felt like I did when I was eating processed foods and fast food in on several medications, control these elements my brain was foggy. It didn't work clearly there's no way I would have come up with a strategy on how to get subway to change or starbucks remove pummeled hollering any of these things right like. So. When you take back control your hell and you start to feel well because you're eating real food with real nutrition in your body is constantly looking for nutrition other places in gravy and other things your brain starts worked so efficiently and I don't have to tell you because wrote a whole. Series than you did a whole documentary on your broken brain but. It's amazing what you can do in this life your life's can change and you can find your calling you. You're passionate and everything. Becomes secondary at that point it's not the thing that. I think there's so many people in this world right now are on these endless cycles of trying to lose weight every. Few months and then they gain it back and they they get another health ailment and then they gain more weight than they lose it and they gain it back in there. Just this constant Yoyo Cycle. But when you move to real food whole food that hasn't been adulterated by the food. Industry. Your body regulates itself. and. I mean I have so many. Stories of people in my family and you've helped like when I called you and my dad was really sick and I explained everything about what was happening with my dad and he told me he said Bonnie is sounds like inflammation of the brain diabetes of the brain you need to get his food under control and that. Those those episodes will go away. He will get better and that's exactly what's happening browns and I. Want Barry is my mom's cooking home cooked food for him every single day, and he's he's just incredible. You know he's been out of the hospital for. Many many many months when used to be in the hospital every three months so They try to take off take out gallbladder. And they kept trying to take it out and kept trying to take it out and you know what? It just took his body to heal real full foods, and now they're like Oh. Yeah we don't need to take. So. Major surgery avoided I mean prostate cancer surgery just by watching and waiting as opposed to going through with radiation and other things and just getting him back on a nutrition that really serves his body an out of the spiral of not sleeping and all. I have so many. Things happening in my life that I've seen with my own family in my own body and that's what inspires me to. This work is there are so many people we can help. It's true. I don't know if our work will ever be done. Since there's so much needless suffering out there. And you and I both know that it's it's not that hard to figure out if you just swap out real food for process shoot. And what you've done in an incredible way, his point out the fact that there are all these things in food that aren't food that have adverse health consequences that have been studied and documented but are ignored, and we have over three thousand food outlets. I think even more appropriately in our food supply. The ten thousand, the average the average person eats three to five pounds of these day including kids who at their lower body weight. It's a much more serious risk. And Most of these chemicals have never been tested for safety they've been grandfathered in or they're tested on animals in a single small dose and we don't really know the long term adverse consequences and many of these chemicals that you talk about are also in other countries ban they're not allowed meetings we have as a matter of course. And so so how how is this happened that? In America we have gotten so many of these. Chemicals that we know have harmful health effects. Some of the things you've got another companies to take out. And how does this happen? How Food Industry CEO's and scientists and the media manipulate us to ignore these unnecessary harms from our food supply and how does industry funded research influence us to eat all this processed food. You lay this out in your books but I just think it's just so important to break down for people because you know there's all this stuff and food but you know the government says it's fine I it's in the grocery store. It's gotta be saved for the FDA has approved like, why? Why should I be worried? We have to start with you know. These chemicals have been largely invented the last fifty years and the chemicals that have entered. The food supply are largely there only for one reason, and they're not to improve nutrition or improve our health. They're actually just there to improve the bottom line of the food industry because we live in a capitalistic society and our government doesn't really regulate the food system like we think they should or they were. We are under the assumption that they are. I mean there's this underlying assumption I believe along with a lot of people that is the FDA is this big you know con- you know big huge part of government that's independently testing all of these different chemicals and. Overseeing all of these food companies in what they're producing in what they're putting in the food supply but they don't have the manpower to do it. They've never had the manpower to do it and they don't usually act in west. They're sued by a Third Party Organization or a nonprofit. That sees some issue with some of these chemicals and so you know you see right now there's big lawsuits happening There was one big very, very big lawsuit that happened actually with artificial flavors. They were seven artificial flavors that were linked to cancer. Many of them found in every single candy that kids. And It took organizations like the RDC in others to point this back out to the FDA to finally get banned but they gave these companies two to four years to make this changes. So we don't allow these chemicals that cause cancer and our food for two to four years even though it's been proven because cancer and so it's you know we we are in a situation where we don't have a lot of regulation around the food system. Once you understand that that we don't have the regulation. Or supervision right super. Just. Interrupt quickly I was in the hospital and I got a creamer for my coffee. And it was full of hydrogenated fats which five years ago the FDA was not safe to eat and mandated the company's removed from the food supply gave them a little bit of a runway in window, but they're still there and they're not safe to eat and the FCC has said that but there's no FDA police going around supervise all the grocery stores. And the worst part is when things are banned like transfats, food companies find other chemicals that act the same way is Trans Fat. So one chemical that you'll see a tons of bakery bed read products and other things that have to stay on the shelf for really longtime as Mono Douglas Rides that is actually a minute amount of trans fats in in every single molecule of Bat, and so it's still clogging up our hearts still clogging up our arteries and trans fats are linked to like twenty thousand deaths or seven thousand deaths twenty thousand heart attacks a year that's from the CDC. But we still allow these chemicals in our in our food and even allow chemists come up with different ways to continue to them, which is just very frightening, and so once you understand that the food isn't regulated, then you also need to understand that the information that we get in the media as being largely manipulated by the food industry in front groups groups that seems very Judy beautiful like the American Heart Association or. You know the. The Center for Science and Public Integrity Or. Council on Science and Health Right? Exactly. You took it out of my mouth. Life here all these organizations like, oh, they're looking after our health care about our heart base know these are organizations that are made up of doctors. And specialists and experts, and and when you look behind the scenes you find out, they're being manipulated by big industry getting money from east chemical ensued companies, and they're they're really just PR spokespeople for these food companies continue operating by selling us food that is is truly harming our health and so once you recognize those two pieces of the puzzle. You kind of understand wait a minute. So foods not regulated. The information I'm getting being told is being manipulated five three companies. So it benefits they're not me and my health you start to realize. The only thing that you can do is to take control of your health and understand what you're putting in your body, and once you understand that you start reading ingredient labels and Then you go a Ha I, get it I. Understand why I need to eat real food. Yeah I mean, we obsessively should be reading not just attrition facts but the Ingredient List and you in your book provider really detailed explanation of how to read those ingredient west and pick out the things that are bad for you and that you shouldn't be eating and it's not that hard. Starting the morning off right has a huge effect on the rest of the day, and personally I love having a super nutrient dense gut healing smoothie for breakfast. So I can feel energized and focused and balance all day long. I, like to use a ton of green leafy veggies healthy fast avocado nuts and seeds, a handful of antioxidant rich berries and then some good gut foods like pre and probiotic fibers and Collagen peptides. Now. You might have noticed Collagen has gotten a lot of hype lately. Now, I know a lot of nutrition. Come and go without the science tobacco of the Collagen is one we can all actually get excited about it's great sporting healthy bones, nails, skin joints, and as we get older college and production slows down. So I love using Collagen peptides to support my connective tissue and got health equality is key. My favorite Collagen is from primal kitchen because grass fed and doesn't have any fillers artificial ingredients, dairy wheat or soy I get my primal kitchen collagen peptides. An amazing discount through thrive market by market offers twenty five to fifty percent off all their items compared to other retailers and have A. Huge selection of natural and organic foods. They make it pretty easy to shop by diet type and get frozen bulk respite meets wild caught fish or even get skin care products cleaning products, ship rate, your door all at a huge discount right now thrive is offering all doctors pharmacy listeners an amazing deal select a free gift from thrive market. When you sign up for one year membership and anytime you spend more than forty nine dollars, you'll get free carbon neutral shipping just head over to thrive market dot com for such Hyman to check out all their great products that's thrive market dot com. Soy Slash Hyman. All right. Now let's get back to this week's episode. and. You know just to sort of look back on your how industry is influencing public health. The American Heart Association gets about one hundred and ninety plus million dollars a year in funding from industry both Pharma and food industry. So how are they an independent group? Dr Nineties was a professor at Stanford has written about these a lot and has talked about all these professional societies whether it's the caddy nutrition headaches American Diabetic Association American heart. Association said they should not be making. Nations about what to eat. For example, the American Heart Association says for Kids Lucky Charms our heart healthy foods why because are low in fat despite that they're full of additives, chemicals and tons of shiffer. Hit on a sore subject for me serial. I'M A serial killer. I. Hope You know that I like let's with a cer. Yeah definitely. The most unethical companies out there right now is Kellogg's it's a company that back in two thousand fifteen, they said that it would remove artificial is for children. In all their cereals and they said, they do it by two, thousand eighteen and I. I wondered at the time why it was gonNA take them three years to do it because they were already selling fruit loops and Apple Jacks and all their famous serials overseas without artificial food dyes and it wasn't like they had to reinvent the formula come up with a new. Recipe or anything like that or or Ben to you way to make something blue or read Already doing this to avoid a warning label Europe requires says may cause adverse effects on activity and attention children. When a product has an artificial food dyes, they're avoiding that warning labels. So they know this affects children's Hell. So completely unethical. They already know how to make the products better and safer, and they're not doing it for their own citizens. So not only did they not do it by two thousand, eighteen it's now two thousand twenty and they've invented for new serials with artificial food is a whole line of waffles with artificial food dyes. Directly targeting children directly targeted toddlers, rabbit toddler at home. So I have a three year old and she loves that Song Baby Shar, and of course, they come out with a baby shark Syria full of artificial food dye. I actually started a petition. You can. If anyone's watching this, you sign it's bay home slash baby chart to finally get kellogs to to to. Their commitments to remove artificial food dyes, these new products are harming our children and know they're coming out with these products in the middle of the pandemic you know and We're in a situation right now where we need to take our health very seriously if anything. With anything in the world events today show you is that government is not going to save us we need to save ourselves. and. So it we're going to have to save our kids and we're GONNA have to save our families and so we have the responsibility to learn about these chemicals in food and make a choice. Not a make a choice not to you know, obviously buy these products and support these companies with our dollars. I'm a little more hardcore than you. I'm like don't buy anything with label. You know if it ain't made by God, don't eat it if it's made by man. Don't eat you make sure you don't eat it right. So you want to make sure I. If you look at a food, you recognize what it is an avocado is made by God. But at twinkie is lucky, charms are certainly not made by God. So that's an easy thing. It's hard to do because people want convenience I understand but we we really have a crisis in this country because you're saying Kellogg's and Other. Companies have really not stepped up to the plate to do things which they know our integrity, which they can do, which are not going to add to their cost, but actually are going to provide better health for for the population. That's as I make cereal is healthy. Even if you took out all that crap I don't think it is because it's full of sugar but that that's that's that's that's another story the. We're up against a mega PR campaign to attend star health in I'll just give you the example of Kellogg's will just go on this one new when they came out with their new waffles there was press up the Wazoo every single mainstream media outlet reported on the fact that Kellogg's has created this new uniform barmaid waffles for kids right. But when my friend who was very famous just unit onto Jesse, it's slur the. Husband of Sarah Likely. One of the billionaire women in this world that own space, he challenged the CEO of Kellogg's to a hundred thousand dollar. Live fifteen minute interview on instagram sitting get one hundred thousand dollars to any charity of the C.. E. O. of Kellogg's choice and not a single media report on this not one single anything. But you know you watch watch the mainstream media reports all sorts of garbage in you know interesting news. Real news that could affect children's health and a debate or even an interview about these new products they created at in no one's challenging these companies and it's just you know we're in a really you're. Talking. You are. Five feet whatever you are. The other thing about Kellogg I want to ask you about was they recently announced that they were going to get life out of their products by twenty twenty five is that a smokescreen? It's at real do. And doing a lot of things that they say they're gonNA do and I haven't seen it done yet so. I'll believe it when I see it. Sure he definitely, and that's another thing. There's this. There's this assumption when these companies announced these changes that are going to actually go ahead with them. A lot of times they change leadership or they realized that they'll lose too much money or oh people suddenly don't care about this issue anymore because it's not a hot button topic in the media. The Issue was very. Hot Topic because a bunch of different reports that the environmental working group put out about life say ensued and the GMO debate at the government level but once. Issues became less important or people forgot about them. They can get away with murder. It's pretty bad. I'm so your book. The food babe way feeding lies and the new book food babe kitchen which everybody should get it is unbelievable. Mark it's. So it's such a beautiful book. It's full of incredible recipes helps you take Bonnie's ideas about how to eat and create health and puts them in to delicious recipes. Easy to follow that are nourishing and Yummy even your kids will love. So everybody get that book. But one of the things you help us understand is how to read labels and how to be a smart consumer because unless we're paying attention and I even get duped sometimes, I'll I'll pick up some look healthy and I'll forget to turn the greediest over non my I get home like God this is terrible. Why would I even WANNA eat this? So how do you how do you? Pay attention to what is important? What should you look for? If it says natural flavors that sounds great, right? It's like healthy right but is it really and you know what? One Joke I always tell us that you know one of the natural flavors eases vanilla natural flavor and that comes from beavers anal glands sprawl. Thank. You very careful and also you know why should we be wary of fortification of foods? At all questions. So in the first fifty, five pages of fake kitchen actually show you how to read labels take you through every grocery store aisle so that you could stock your kitchen like a food bay and everything from how do you prepare your foods to how you warm them up in everything is in this book at the beginning then you know, of course, a hundred plus recipes with color photos for each one. So just so excited to have this book out. So. Happy. I. Know You've written many cookbooks mark and you know it's this is my first one. So it's a the first of many there who I've got. I've definitely got more recipes than me. But you know I think what's really important about reading labels is that you know there's this kind of three question. Detox that I talk about the end of feeding you lies. This is kind of how you start a process of really training your mind to eat real food. Question the first question what are the ingredients so have to know kind of everything that you're eating and says, you sit down for a meal and you don't know the ingredients stop eating that meal and find out. And once you read the ingredients and and look at them. Do you understand them all do are they real food? Are they? Is it an apple cinnamon and sea salt or is it t h q and You know Glue Number One? T? H. Q by the way is very popular synthetic preservative that they use it very popular products and You know a racist peanut butter cups comes to mind tsinoys to luggage. And this is actually an ingredient that. Negatively affects your t cells in your body's it promotes allergies. So like if you have allergic just an allergy to anything, it can just increase your immune response to that allergy and you can. You can have a very first reaction and if you eat a lot of foods with this it's been linked to to services stomach cancer behavioral problems in children all sorts of things in this this is a preservative that's a lot of things but you know. When you read that on labeled T. H. Q. You'd have to ask yourself what is that right in? So that comes that lead to the second question, which is are these ingredients nutritious is TV H.. Q. Nutritious. I'll. No. Helmet right and and so then you start to realize like, why am I eighty needs non refreshes ingredients, and maybe I need to choose something different. And then the third question you ask yourself is where do these ingredients come from or they made in a laboratory in a chemical factory in in the case of natural flavors that you mentioned? Yes. They are people see the word natural gets coming from nature. Yeah. It starts nature but the way the manipulate for example of strawberry in a laboratory or they can manipulate some other substance at that comes from nature and make it act like a strawberry or tastes like strawberry or create the one millionth best heart taste of something so that they can put in a product that normally would not taste good on the shelf that lasts there for you know that's nine twelve months. They could put it in a product in it would taste like a real strawberry even as no real strawberries in it and and that's what natural flavoring is. So it tricks your brain into thinking you're eating real food when you're not but your body's still wondering where the nutrition from that strawberries frog. So you start to create more than you should in. So natural flavors are one of the most. Evil ingredients in are supply because trick your brain, they hijack your taste buds and they continued that craving. So you eat more than you shouldn't with obesity heart disease diabetes as our biggest issue in this in this country and cancer, you know we have to take control of our tastes butts and the only way to do that is not to allow the food industry to control them and so removing natural flavors from your diet is like the number one thing I think in it. So you know even though there's many more chemicals that are many more much more harmful to you. Almost, ninety nine percent of the products on product shelves at the Grocery Store have natural flavors. So if you natural flavor, you avoid many of those in it's actually one of the reasons I started my company True Balmy I just WanNa mention because there's so many supplement companies out there protein powder companies supplement companies that use these natural flavors. I wanted to create a a line of products that were made from real food and nonsense vettix substances. It didn't trick your brain into craving flavor more than it. Should I want people to be able to turn author normal mechanisms to crave sued? Why we're doing what we're doing extra. Important when you're saying because these these chemicals and some of these things are not put in there necessarily the preservative, but they're putting their deliberately to hijack our brain to make us eat more craved more one more and one of those MSG which is got fifty different names or more those hidden, and you doesn't say this MSG or monosodium glutamate people are are hip to that they changed the name like hydrolysed protein or extract, and and that actually is what's used in research to fatten up rats or mice to study obesity so they give them. MSG. Increase. Their appetite, make them eat more and get fat and I I remember. Once I was talking to a nutritionist who lived in Samoa which has the most obese population in the entire world and most of them are diabetic. And she said for breakfast, they had Rama noodles sugar. Had MSNBC. Yeah. But. They put cooling powder on it. which has all these artificial colors and put MSG powder on it. Throw it's it's extraordinary. That's their breakfast basically cool eight MSG and Robinson hurdles. and. That's why they're so beast because they can't stop eating and I I think your book really points out a lot of these chemicals and goes to details about which one you should pay attention to what they are, where what they're doing to our biology in fact, whether band and other countries, and why do we have them here? It's really powerful and unquenchable to check it out 'cause there's very other. A few other places where you can get this kind of information that tells you exactly what you should be looking for even my books I don't go into as much detail because you know bodies an expert on this food additive thing and she's been taking down large companies based on her work and I think it's it's pretty exciting. So one of the things besides accompanies I think we want to talk about. Is the government. At how the government affects our food choices and they have different programs that they do this. With that, we think are you know government programs for the public good but they're actually helping companies not improve public health but private prophet and one of these programs is called a checkoff program. Can You? Can you talk about that because you're right about in your book and it was very enlightening to read about Absolutely, so N. In feeding me lies I kind go off all of the different. Like I guess. Phases of things that the government has done in terms of Trying to help you know in terms of you know when we look at the real cost, you know this mark. So the root cause of a lot of our issues is because of where our subsidies in our agriculture producers are basically being given subsidies so that a produce really cheap commodities for for America in those cheap commodities like corn and soy are what make up the majority of processed foods. and. So these. Programs actually give. The corn and soy and canola industries power in the government to make decisions whether it's something that makes a decision on my plate which the government creates to. Give guidelines to children in schools on how their plate should look at the end of the day. Dairy should be on. There are not beyond their how much grains should be on there verses not beyond their. You know you've you've written a lot about your detox folks in other books about. How some of these Ingredients the things that we make the most of corn and soy have been very detrimental to our held as a not only glyphosate that sprayed on majority of those cross that linked to cancer. But also the fact that it imbalances you're a mega three to a mega six fatty acid ratio on your body and for people to understand the the corn and Soy Unicorn on the COB and soybeans. That's not the problem but. About one percent of the stuff grown actually is eaten as the whole food. Most of his turned into industrial products, food products, commercial products, gasoline. I mean it's just an enormous problem in terms of our government strategy. So keep going and tell us by the checkout program. Yes. So you know we have, and then this also happens within the league industry to, and so there's so many different abuses in terms of the The different CHECKOFF programs in its in all stems from this one organization within the government it's the government accountability office or it's called the the Gal, the USDA Gal, and it basically oversights all of these checkoff programs they allow these companies to continue to market food to us even though it's unhealthy. So think about the. People Kinda make sense of it. You know programs like you know what's for dinner or you know pork the other right? Right meat yet got milk. These are all not industry funded programs. These are programs that are funded in collaboration with the. So that the government is actually pushing these products into the marketplace to our advertising marketing with the money is supposed to do is further research and understanding not be marketing dollars to pay for ads that make these companies, billions of dollars. So when the milk was was out, there was so popular they had every celebrity and add they've had the white moustache. They had all these health claims you know it's GonNa make stronger bones going to be great for sports performance going to do this do that you lose weight And what happened was another branch of the government started paying attention to this the Federal Trade Commission which regulates truth in advertising and they're like, Hey, guys, there's no data backup. What you're saying in these ads you've gotTa stop these ads. That's why you don't see got milk ads anymore because basically they went got proof and there was no proof. Exactly that thinking of another one year, the whole grain the great society to was doing that awhile with you know by saying whole grain was heart healthy. Whole Grain Cookie Crisp zero hour, and everything. My favorite is the whole grain cookie. Crisp cereal would like you. Seven teaspoons, sugars, I'm going. It's ridiculous. Amazing. So talk about some practical things that are in your book you talk about cooking with oils and everybody's confused which oil should use should use olive oil or coconut oiler, grape oil or canola oil cooking sprays like Whoa. What's the deal with cooking oils and what should be be using? So yeah. So one of the things that I want you to do when you go look in your kitchen if you're watching US and. I just WanNa make sure you just get rid of all the corn soy. Canola. Cottonseed oil. Any of those just wrote them away get rid of them don't even donate them. They do not long your diet because every time you go out to eat there's a likelihood that you're eating one of those oils in that's. Very much contributing to the demise of our health in this in this world, not only are those. Oils high into mega six, which again affect our mega three ballots but also are. Somewhat ranted of the way that they produced you know they are produced with Heck Sane. A carcinogenic substance that is a chemical that allows a solvent to allow them to to extract the oil from Corn Soy, etc. in this is very popular way to extract the oils and it's something that the FDA doesn't even regulate doesn't even tests for this the heck sane residue that's less in a lot of these oils. So when you're cooking with oil, I want you to start with something that is. As, close to nature as possible extra-virgin olive oil. unrefined coconut oil I found that actually refined coconut oils. A great substitute for frying things. The reason is is because it doesn't have labor of coconut oil that has some health benefit versus frying in a coroner, canola oil or soybean oil on and grass fed butter in. So one of the principles of Babe in my lifestyle I've never like you know mark b been too many meals together. I don't hold back I love to eat you know and I don't want to ever. Be on the side of deprivation. I think my recipes I have a homemade version of chick fillet chicken sandwich in here. doritos. cheetos. Knocking, trick your brain and eating more than you should most of. And you know I've ever. WanNa be in a situation where I'm depriving myself I love to eat. So but I wanNA find a way to make foods that I love in a healthy way and the easiest way to do that urgency, you change your fats. So you WanNa, do grasp ledbetter. Coke mineral, those are. The three that I use I use does for the most in my. In my kitchen now. Wall. Some Avocado oil in some of the products from like Promo kitchen and others that have popularized avocado oil in if I need to use like a spray or something, there's a good avocado oil spray but I, I rarely have ever had used cooking spray learning about different mechanisms on how to prepare food without these kind of conveniences of Ham crisco all that stuff and I go through all of these swamps in the book I have these charts in the first half of the book where it says, you know instead of mining your pan in aluminum foil where some of that aluminum could transfer over to you. You can line your Pan Parchment paper an. Arch neighbor or instead of wrapping. You know you're hot dish classic rat, which you know a lot of those chemicals can leach into your food later on. Using glass reusable dish instead, and so I go through all the things that I do in my kitchen. That's different than what majority of people you know in? In the reason I put these lists in the buck is because every time I travel or go into one of my friends kitchens or my on even anywhere and I, see them doing certain things or see them using certain. Tools like a teflon pan because it's just they've always had a teflon pad and they've had it for ten years and that's what they make their pancakes in whatever. You know it makes me cringe because I'm just like Oh. Oh PF. Oh. To get away from that, right He should. People Watch really WANNA know the dangers of lauded and Dupont. Watch, that movie the devil you know. have. You seen that documentary? With Mark Ruffalo or that one. No in. Dark waters. Yeah. Yeah. That stark water was it's another one. It's really great on that Web netflix split up by the way you great and Chris Kissed the ground I just thought. Thank you. Thank you. NETFLIX's about regenerative agriculture, which that could be a whole other hour conversation. Regenerative health. Regenerate your health so Exactly, and you generate your health getting in the kitchen right in your kitchen in stocking your kitchen with the writing gradients making sure you're prepared foods so that you maximize nutrition in that food. You. Everybody everybody who knows like you know how I? Understand, I'm not big on Flour Pasta even though I love it. It's it's not that great for you and yet in your book food kitchen which everyone should get. And I can't wait to start cooking from it. You say the Pasta can be healthy. So is that true? Are you just? Give us a snow job here would be looking for than we buy Pasta. Well, there's this one. Invention I feel like Pasta in the last few years that is blowing my mind that There's a company called tolerant and there's a couple other companies that are doing this to They're making pasta out of chick peas and lentils. And So you're getting a ton of fiber from the being you're getting protein from the bean. It's not just why flower that spikes your insulin. You're actually getting satisfied from a small bowl of Pasta as opposed to win the white. Pasta curic eat a lot more. In so I believe that's a very healthy way to consume pasta on a regular basis. I make my daughter those little elbow macaroni made from lentils green lentils one ingredient. And she's having lentils every day you know with an amazing tomato sauce eggplant and carrots and other things in it. And she loves it. Now, when we go out to restaurant sheets real us, she's like Whoa this. Really good but you really can't tell the difference when you make me on a regular basis and you put the good sauces and other things on it on you to make. Or anything with these the SASA. But there's a way to choose pasta that is much healthier than just the white pastas that we grew up with. You know it's true. I would actually doing covert I was like Oh boy you know we're in lockdown Rabin I ordered all this food from thrive market, which is an incredible online grocer that you know has really healthy products and great alternatives like the swaps Bonnie's talking about at a great discount at. Thrive Market Dot com and I was like okay well, I probably GonNa have some emotional moments I want some comfort food I'm going to get pasta but I did I bought the of Lentil Pasta and a chickpea pasta and I thought this is going to be like gross and healthy fee tasting but it wasn't it was really really good. So there's all kinds of really creative ways to like you say, eat things that are good for you what. Do Your book is you you deal the sugar issue because we all like sweet things and you've created a special sweet bland that you use to make these cookies called forever cookies which sounds amazing and your food babe kitchen cookbook. So. Can we sweeteners? What should we be doing and? And what is this week blend thing? So, versus something I invented a long time ago because I do love sweets but I also don't want overindulge suites in I. Know what I buy a cookie from a bakery or from now or even just a cookie like if you were to buy a bag of chips, chips, Ahoy can't stop it just one you eat like three or four those because they're putting the natural flavor of course in there but also it's sugar it's white flour it's all very addictive ingredients but in my frederick cookies I'm starting with all whole real ingredients actually grind up nuts to make be part of the flower. Real votes, and then to sweeten the cookies instead of using a granulated sugar or processed sugar, I actually take crews in dates and I when them with coconut oil, which is the fat Instead of using better I just use token liquefies better and you can use butter too if you want. But I put it all in the lender and it smells like almost like a Samoa cookie when it comes out. And Anyone used to eat girl scout cookies. Yeah. That was that was one of my favorite ones but it smells just like that with dates in the coconut oil the frunze all mixed together and it's so sweet. It's a nice sweet basil for that cookie and when you bake it up and if you put a couple of chocolate chips or maybe dried cranberries or some other raisins or whatever you WANNA put. In the cookie to make you know several different kinds of cookies, they're delicious and you're not getting the sugar hangover from it because you're getting all the fiber from the prunes, which are plums, dried plums and dates, and in there's no additional refined sugar in these cookies is it's good I mean actually on I watch responding to create a little jar of it that you can just so. Yeah, it's great and and and if you make the cookies with other things that are protein and fat like almond flour. Flower you can actually have a cookie it's relatively healthy I mean. Got No refined. Okay cookies for breakfast. You heard it from Bonnie. Hi. Here we go. I'm not there yet but I I gotta try I'M GONNA. Try a good. Feeling you WANNA touch base for we we sign off you talk about microwaves and people are so anna microwaves because most food we eat is comes from a bat, a package or a box frozen, and we use microbes a lot to make a cooking convenient. So what's the problem with Mike Aways and and how do we actually heat up our leftovers and frozen food defraud I come home and I'm like This late I wanted to frost something from the Freezer only four hours for frost and have dinner at like ten o'clock at night. So what what do I do? So, here's what I do instead. So there's a lot of. Conflicting, science about the science of microwaves. What I do know is following your intuition and and I do know that certain nutrients are lost when you cook something very fast and high heat. In. So what you WANNA do is Kinda go down and obviously we need to remember mark to put your defrost and things refrigerator overnight. But if you forget those type of things, you can literally just put whatever your me or whatever dish in a big large glass of water and lead on the counter for an hour I. Know You may not want to wait that long, but you can also use I. Love. I have a big wonderful big. Fancy oven. But I also bought a standalone toaster oven that on my countertop and I tell you that thing gets used more than my real love it. It it gets hotter faster. It defrost things very quickly. It has an air fryer four baked French fries. They can reheat my daughter. Scoot, in a matter of minutes five or six minutes versus the one. Minute Zach that you do in a microwave and you're preserving more nutrients that way in your food and when you spend so much time preparing getting real food and doing the right things you want also warm it up the right way and so I always make sure I don't warm up things plastic because I don't WanNa leave those chemicals. In my food and I use a glass dish and I just stick it in that toaster of it and it's incredible how fast things to get warmed up and it's it's just as fast and I can tell you I'm not a person that likes to spend all day in the kitchen. There's many recipes actually that didn't naked ensued big kitchen because they took too long had this whole recipe plan for homemade songs, but it took four days. He turning over in the fridge and I was like forget that people do not have time for this right? Of course, homemade organic your thoughts pretty amazing. But you know that's That's not who I am. So I was like you know what we're. Real recipes that you can make within thirty minutes and things you can heat up very quickly. You know when you have leftovers because. You know we just don't have time. But the time we do spend making her own food and choosing our ingredients is probably the most important time we will have as humans. In terms of our help. Mason what is what is that toaster-oven? I have one too it's amazing. What are you waiting? Those are amazing I and they're. All sorts of things in the end. Turn on my big only if I'm making a big portion are big dish for a large crowd. Or if I need a huge long pants or something but I use that oven warned that use anything and it saves for mean, all sorts of benefits of it it's it's everyone should have one I. Agree it so good I put my potato in the archer non gophers our comeback it's Donna right. Put some Mush. The olive oil make them out. crispy. It's so good. I love my little of it. So, when it comes to meal planning, let's just talk about that from and any people are overwhelmed with food. They know they should be eating better. There are stressed for time although people now are more at home with cove and actually having more time to cook but they don't know what to Cook and and how to Cook, and if I road food, what should I eat and what should I cook because people are so confused and you really help people with with this in your in your book food a kitchen. So tell us about how should we approach meal planning so you don't get overwhelmed. So, one of the things that is crucial to making sure that you do have time and boy those circumstances where you have to use the microwave is to just write down at the beginning of the week what you're GonNa have right in one of the things that has really helped. Me Is just having the same thing for breakfast too much if you're really busy. Have the same thing for breakfast and lunch Monday through Friday, and then mix it up on the weekends. Then at least you know your breakfast and your lunch, they're going to be healthy because you're gonNA. Pick those ingredients in advance you're gonNA have them ready the night before hopefully free breakfast. You don't you're not scrambling around tried to get to hungry and crave something that you. To eat something that he should and then having the kind of the same kind of lunch every single day maybe you change out an ingredient your or to you know I pretty much have the same lunch every day I haven't rude salad with some type of beans and nuts and some other different kinds of vegetables Balsa, Thrive Market Ball saw naked, olive oil, and. and. And I have that almost every day for lunch. You know that's just kind of what my Go-to is on if I'm making much and in having kind of my go-to. Reminds me to get those ingredients in my kitchen so that I have those every single day. You know my my breakfast you know I have a steel cut oatmeal that takes me literally less than one minute repair light knows you'll cut oatmeal takes twenty five minutes on the stove I'm like, no, no no you get a small little crock pot. You put in those oats the night before with you know I, put an easily a half a cup. With two and a half cups of water, and that's enough for my whole family. HAVE SEAL COAT OATMEAL ready to go first thing in the morning when I wake up, I don't have to thing I just open the pie and scoop it out and top it with walnuts dates or whatever meeting that day with mean there's a million topics you could do with Oatmeal, but it's Soda Tricia. So easy took me one minute to prepare the night. Before one minute, right? Yeah. I think people don't understand how easy it is. If you have a little few simple things, you know you don't have to have a repertoire of twenty five different dishes you get your basic stuff rely on that and you WanNa have fancy stuff once in a while it's okay. But I, I'm the same way I stopped that I'm used to eating I'd super quick and simple, and then if I want fancy I can. The Catholic okay. Last question because this is really important you know you you are guiding us and how to reclaim our health in reclaim our kitchens and our bodies through making different choices about what we personally what we feed our families, but you're also driving huge change in the food system. And my question nude body is is you know people listening might go well, you know she's very special she she's an activist what can I do I can make a difference, but but that's not really true. So what could people do action things? Can people do to be our own food activists, advocates and change the system because we all need to change the system together. So the best thing that people can do is to share what they learn about food with the people they love their friends, their family do whatever they can to. Teach. Them educate If you learn about him ingredient, tell someone about it You know try not to be the food police. Or go into people's Pantries, throw stuff out like I do but. You do it in a respect away an educational way, and that's how you bring about changes through education of what's in our food and how to make the changes when you go to a party and you know there's GonNa be a lot of bad food always bring something. That's amazing. Healthy. That's delicious so that people can see what it tastes like a dry food and really become a change right? Be The change in your environment had to those around you. You know can join Bonnie's food babe army on so that when she needs to push button get XYZ company to get this nasty ingredient of their food, you can sign the petition you can join in and there's so many different things we can do in my book food fix I created a food fix action guide, which you can download from food fixed book dot, com and. It lays out exactly all the steps that you can do as an individual to make a difference. If you're a business owner, what you can do if you're policymaker where you can do so I think there's so much but we all have to join this grassroots effort because it's not going to change without US pushing for it. Thank you so much funding for being such a light, such a driver of change, such an inspiration for me and so many others about eating real food and getting healthy and reclaiming our health and an ending all this needless suffering out there from the junk they. Were all eating. It's not just about obesity. It's about so many other issues that are being affected whether it's our mental health, our emotional and psychological health whether it's our skin or other conditions and health problems that we have like you didn't. It's really so powerful. So Bonnie, thank you for all the work you do and being such a light anchorage everybody to go to the store or go online and buy food babe kitchen more than one hundred delicious real food recipes to change your body and your life and your food kitchen dot com to learn more about it high and just. Because she rocks and thank you so much for being on the podcast. so much marcus and so good having this conversation with you. I can't wait to see you again in person I know soon hopefully, and if you've been listening to this podcast, you love is conversation share your friends and family have helped them get healthy leave a comment about how maybe these food additives and chemicals affected you and what you've learned and how you've gotten better stopping them and subscriber every year your podcast and we'll see you next time on the doctors pharmacy. Doctor Hyman thanks for tuning into the doctor's pharmacy I. Hope you're loving this podcast. It's one of my favorite things to do introducing you all the experts that I know and I love and that I've learned so much from and I wanna tell you about something else I'm doing which is called marks picks. It's my weekly newsletter and I share my favorite stuff from foods supplements to gadgets tools to enhance your health is all the stuff I use, and then my team uses to optimize our health and I'd love you to sign up for the weekly newsletter only Senate you once a week on Fridays nothing else a promise. And all of us to Dr Hyman DOT COM forward slash picks to sign up. That's Dr Hyman dot com four size picks P I C K S, and sign up for the newsletter and I'll share with you my favorite stuff that I used to enhance my health and get healthier and better and live younger longer. Hi, everyone I. Hope you enjoyed this week's episode just a reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only this podcast is not a substitute for professional care by. A doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for helping your journey, seek out a qualified medical practitioner. If you're looking for a functional medicine practitioner, you can visit ifm dot org and search. They're fine a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who's trained, WHO's a licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes especially when it comes to your health.

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Print During a Pandemic, Racial Diversity in Ads and Teens' Favorite Social Platforms | Oct 22, 2020

Behind the Numbers: eMarketer Podcast

35:40 min | 12 hrs ago

Print During a Pandemic, Racial Diversity in Ads and Teens' Favorite Social Platforms | Oct 22, 2020

"We still estimate that the majority of all spending that goes to newspapers or that goes to magazines goes to print and we don't think that those shares will tip in favour of digital until on the newspaper side twenty, twenty two. Gang it's Thursday October twenty seconds Nicole Mark Oscar as more everybody an over this news. Welcome to the behind the numbers daily meemaw passport to by site core. I am for the rest of my life Marcus Johnson I'm joined on the line by four people we have joining us to pursue analysts. One of them is coordinate coal parents she is the host of the AD. Platform another other behind the numbers show also principal analyst covering everything drive technology. Hey Mark F. Hello. That joined by familiar voice on the weekly listen. It's Mr mom deliver who's a principal analyst covering demographics party. Hello Sir Rossi joined by C. Focusing analyst Oscar a ROSCO. Thank you for having me hey buddy and finally we have on June four costing analyst Nonsmo- Islam. Welcome? Buddy. Hey Chap suck. Today's topic what happens to print during a pandemic. Emma Cotton Brights on Vermont Nonprofit News Site Support Viti. Giga. Good name. The many local publishes are quote stepping forward with the knowledge that redes- hungry four clear expensive reporting about some of the most sobering issues in recent memory a dangerous virus plankton Konami reckoning with institutional racism and an impending election close quote. So there is a lot read this year a lot of news to ingest and Digest. So let's start with how newspaper circulation has been doing this year I guess we're GONNA say Prince quiet lot what we mean there is newspaper and magazine so Yeah newspaper, Print magazine circulation how has it been doing as of late so Circulation numbers I mean they keep getting. Getting harder and harder to come by must say, but you know there is some good data. There's probably not a good sign in general. Good sign good sign. It's definitely been something. We've we've tracked for a long time and it just gets harder and harder. But we there's some some data if the data's usually a couple years behind read. So we have some two thousand eighteen data from newspaper Association of America Lions for other than media news media. Alliance whether it's showing is really a decline of eight and nine percent respectively for weekday and Sunday circulation. This doesn't include digital. So the print only is down even further twelve percent and thirteen percent for weekday and Sunday print. So. BOOSTING, bad numbers for a while. Now, do they include the major papers? The major national papers? That's that's a good question they actually do not include the New York Times. A Wall Street Journal or Washington Post was. So we'd know these numbers would be a lot worse Okay. Yeah. It's a good reflection of the other guys, right because a lot of the times when we talk about papers, we're talking about the whole names household chores, but we're not joking about though the other guys though the local papers. So that's good to to get these kinds of numbers. Exactly. So Oscar in light of some of these readership numbers, these numbers being down you've been making some adjustments. When was the last adjustment to our focus was October or April? So we we we've made adjustments to our time spent forecast in April. So we did account for you know the the covert affected early on but you know we do feel like our numbers you know stand pretty well for themselves and Yeah. We we essentially especially on. The print front we we expect there to be significant drop in Twain Twenty readership as everything is really shifting online i. mean that's been the story for years now, but Cova is pretty much pushing that even quicker, right. So everything's kind of moving online even quicker than we had anticipated readership numbers specifically for newspapers are we have it is down to about thirty five point five percent of the population reading newspapers, and this is once a month at least and you know some of this is due. To the just the lack of commuting time but but also circulations being down people there there isn't there was and continues to be a fear a little bit of maybe getting the virus when the kind of touching now whether it's male or newspapers or magazines. So that's also something has impacted these readership numbers. Yeah. You had a survey from Blue Toad, right? Yes. Showing the the concerns about cashing the virus from a physical Paper Journal magazine as you said, newspaper readership down third of people that of Americans. Stu Ninety one million people how do you guys read those numbers? Is that still quite a sizable audience? I mean seventy percent of the country used to read a newspaper in two, thousand ten now a third of the country do but it's still ninety one million people that still. Roughly the same amount of people who listening to podcasts or something as as a current or futuristic as this type of a medium. How do you guys look at those numbers if it were steady or getting bigger than we look at it differently from the way we do. This is Oscar says it's just going down and down and it was going down already before the pandemic that's pushing it down more so Yes, it's a substantial number now, bit getting a smaller every year. Also I mean newspaper Readership skews old. So you know that these folks are my fellow boomers were dying off and and I, am a little twist I. You know the the boomers during the pandemic sort of had to learn to become more digital. So even when the pandemic is over, they may be a little less likely to to to go back to to reading a print newspaper they were before. Oscar. How how is? Trending over the next couple of the because it seemed to me as though it was kind of. Stabilizing somewhat I mean still kind of creeping downwards but not dropping from the heights that we've seen over the last decade. Yeah I mean it is stabilizing the bidding and because this precipitous drop to twenty twenty, it's it's a couple of percentage points. It's not anything crazy. We do expect the slight little. Bump up you know next year as is you know people commute back into the offices are a little more of the newsstand purchases of newspapers one off purchases, things like this. but it definitely is flattening a bit but it's still going down I mean we still project in the coming years for for these numbers you know to to drop a little bit. So kind of no end in sight necessarily, we were not ready to forecast that sixty two percents of folks used to read a magazine in twenty. Ten. Now thirty percents of people reading magazines still seventy seven million people also quickly the engagement as well. Engagement being hallowed people spend with papers. We're forecasting average time spent per day reading the newspaper by Americans in two, thousand, ten, forty, five minutes spent. Cruising. Through the paper. That's fallen is now twenty seven minutes. Spent reading reading the paper to. That's not bad. Is it in terms of engagement in terms of time spent cruising through news payment but newspapers haven't got smaller or bigger but I imagine still got similar number of pages. So if you're an advertiser. Relative amount of minutes engaging with a newspaper attention span seems to have completely disappeared in terms of every other. Thing that we engage with in terms of reading the paper, it seems like people who are going to read it again and read it sure. But so I would argue that time spent with you know up for example, smartphones over three hours compared to that you know we're seeing all the shifts to video whether it's subscription video advertising video on demand platforms, things like this, the time spent. On these platforms are growing so and so fast that quickly, the print sort of a portion of that is becoming so tiny you know I, think that's kind of how you have to think of it I. I would also put it in perspective and a little bit different way and say that our average daily time spent with print is very close to our average daily spin with facebook. But it's clear that facebook is much much much better at monitoring that time via ads than print media are at this point. Are More valuable. I totally agree with then and we spoke about this earlier but one thing that keep in mind for example, the time said they had two hundred and forty million unique visitors internationally and I think this was in March, a lot of it due to the corona virus But if you look at their revenues, I, mean subscriptions have continued to fall. There are one of the few few sort of newspapers that have done. Okay. So it's just kind of it's not correlating right? Even if they're getting all these viewers and readers, it doesn't mean that they're making any money Yeah. This look the Times is a as a case study New York Times they had over six million subscribers as revenue started to fall. So. Yeah. The widespread interesting coronavirus coverage pulled in over six hundred, thousand digital subscribers and key one twenty, twenty, two act business has been struggling. So some of those numbers in Q. One overall ad revenue was down fifteen percent touch over one hundred, million dollars digital's down eight down twenty one overall subscription revenue did grow by five percents in Q. One total was pretty much dead even zero a little bit. Interestingly though times print subscriptions, they fell eight percents in key one, but they still the print subscription still account for most of subscription and add revenue. So in one print subscriptions, business made one hundred and fifty, five, million dollars digital was one thirty and wise print made fifty five, million dollars digital fifty one. So prince still still doing his thing. In Q. Two Q. to revenues were down seven and a half percent. Subscription. Revenue was up eight add revenue was down forty four percent. What do you guys make of how the Times is doing and how much this? Model, they've been able to do on the subscription side on the digital side could be a blueprint for particular other national papers. Back. Out of the Times a little bit I and just talk about that. The AD. Revenue Split between print and digital I mean, that's pretty typical. Still you know in general used to hear a lot of things about a print ad dollars compared to digital dimes and Basically, the prices for these digital ads have always been much lower. So even as the volume of consumption has flipped to the digital side. The ad revenue just hasn, and so even though we have estimated years and years and years of double digit decreases for print newspaper print magazine AD spending alongside increases in spending on their digital properties. We still estimate that the majority of all spending that goes to newspapers or that goes to magazines goes to print and we don't think that those shares will tip in favour of digital until on the newspaper side twenty, twenty two and on the magazine side twenty, twenty three. And and yeah, you know turning just specifically to the times we've talked before about obviously, we've talked lots about the time is being like a big success as far as a newspaper making revenue on digital. Media. Properties. But we've also talked about how the fact that you know now that the Times is making a of its revenue from digital, it's a down to print declining and also be down to the increasing importance of subscriptions as opposed to ads, and it's their subscription strategy that's been so successful on digital on the past couple of years. Worth they do have a an innovative ads strategy as well that I wouldn't want to write off. They have spent a long time building out their own proprietary infrastructure and proprietary data segments so that they're. You know they're trying to compete with the likes of facebook on that playing field there. Their own ads through essentially their own AD technology now You said the criticises still doing its thing but I think in life Nicole's you're saying I mean. The other way to say it is that the digital is or failing to do its thing. As a revenue generator. Advertising and So much I think that the shift that that Nicole describing from. Add revenue to subscription revenue is what supports these things that may be part of a broader tragedy we see in some ways does the same thing with digital video that you know I'll people just watching Traditional Free TV you know spending some money to watch something they. They WanNa Watch on digital. So we all kind of A. A larger trend going on. Yeah. The key thing in in their innings really is that the subscription revenue up five point four percent in these unprecedented times. But nonetheless, they were able to leverage that into a much on the ads side with digital ad revenues dropping eight. You know so and considering all the you know the circumstances it's just you know doesn't bode well for future earnings. Yes. Subscription revenues as Oscar set up five percent in key one up. Eight percent in. Cute to NONSMO- you've worked on a US print AD spending numbers recently. So this zoom out and take the them as a whole. How much money is being made from a print on the ads side and breaking that down by newspaper magazine as well is Nicole said, we've been expecting a big declines over the last few years. There's not just district because of the pandemic. Princeton going down for a while. Now specifically for this year in twenty twenty, we're expecting Trinh odd revenue to be around twelve billion dollars by the end of twenty twenty dot to drop off from around fifteen and a half billion in two thousand, nineteen specifically for newspaper and twenty twenty were expecting it to be about five point eight billion dollars in for magazine were expecting it to be also five point eight, million dollars but overall has got decline around negative twenty, five percent this year. So it's only a bright look for it. Honestly as everyone else to talk about fake the main reason you even Is, just because of trustworthiness. Like really a key down the newspaper side of things, the main reason people go to newspaper. So obviously not to get to get to news gold like with the latest things happening obsolete cavity? WanNa know what? New measures coming across countries what the doctors are saying, what people could be expecting to happen policy changed but a recent trend really is that social media's becoming more and more looked at for news and initiate problem social media even they've always had articles in Click People. Can Really Trust so for media. But. They're getting there is a quote unquote fake news but I've seen like surveys over the even like last few months definitely over the last couple of years more and more people trusting what they're seeing on tasted like facebook twitter even read it and as more people sought to trust like news, they're getting through those kind of sites i. think it's really troubling for newspapers. like if if they're trustworthy level is Sunday Nasimul going Oscar, I was just GonNa ask you you think there's been just a loss of prestige right that that gap is used to be much bigger. People said Hey I'm only going to look at these high end sort of newspaper publications, but there's there's been a loss of prestige of that. These newspapers continue to see exactly at. A high up towards like where like the only good. Informative like journalistic news out there You know we'd have to worry about. Digital avenues where people are getting other forms of newsroom. But now yet like the gap is much smaller, keeps closing as time goes by. So I think that's your biggest concern and they can have to try to account that some form. In some way I wanNA, talk a bit about people getting used from some of these social media platforms and talk about the relationship between big tech and papers. So the competition and markets authority in the UK regulator said in the past two years big tech. has basically away forty percent of online traffic going to national newspapers. Calculations and the economists have quotes saying data from Benedict Evans who writes technology newsletter shows that newspapers in America have been losing share of AD dollars to TV since the nineteen fifties long before the web. So how much can we actually blame big tech for the downfall of of newspapers and people getting more than us on those platforms and what's going to be their relationship going forward? Particularly inappropriate. Just blame big tack when I think the point about. Newspaper Ad Revenue Getting into way to TV is really good but but just even in terms of digital, like a lot of this is down to craigslist. This is like a long standing trend newspapers and perhaps magazines but especially newspapers because of historically contingent reasons had a monopoly on getting information to people in the world that they just don't anymore and so there's just not as much of a reason to advertise with them for lots of things and classifieds were kind of the the big first thing that that really really. Changed with digital and again, that was really about craigslist much more than what we would call big tech. Now, of course, the situation now is a little bit different, but you know just even in terms of that point about the the the turning down of traffic to news media it's like well, I mean they're they're sending you traffic to begin with right they weren't doing that before they existed I mean for for me I think the question boils down to, and that's why this this can be a little bit controversial but. How important is it to us or to society for these newspapers to do do we need them to survive or should we just kind of let you know the economics handle themselves and maybe we don't need these traditional is regarded publications to survive. I. Don't know that's really went question becomes at least for more icy remain also be the case that we do need them but there's not. A good way of keeping them alive I. Mean you don't want. To be a survey, a government subsidy and In some ways I mean it's Kinda Nice when something very rich person comes along and buys a paper that's willing to lose money on it but There are problems with having. Rich. Guys being the the ultimate purveyors of of our news. So So see I mean it's there's no good solution to this problem, but it is a problem. Yeah, and to the extent that that people think it's been somewhat solved by the life of the New York Times with their recent digital subscription success I think the thing about those subscriptions is that they're they're driven by brand and loyalty and. You know not our former idea of a more objective type media. You know that came about because the the customer there are to an accent was the advertiser who who wanted something that would have the broadest appeal possible. But these publications are no longer trying to have the broadest appeal possible, and that means that we're probably not going to have the same idea of the the national paper of record that we've traditionally thought of the New York Times as I agree I think it's it's tough to expect. Anyone to sort of emulate the success of the New York Times or something like that right I don't think we can have many of those I was GonNa say one thing to the group I. I've heard some comparisons with the success of the subscription or at based video audio platforms things like that. Do you think it's fair to expect the you know this is a fair comparison to to compare yeah. These these print publications to the audio and video guys who thinks that the market for quality information is as big as the market for pop music. Like silly silly idea. I agree with you. That the newspapers businesses is kind of original sin with leading this P. Free for for for years and thinking they supported with ad revenue rather than from the outset getting people habitue to do paying some money for for this quality product they were providing so. It was definitely a kick themselves in the knee. Referee outs definitely. Yeah. Just the perceived value in video and audio is completely different than than I think printer like information versus entertainment in some ways it's an interesting comparison but I'm not sure it's fair. Another circumstances people have a genuine need for really high quality information typically for business reasons that they are willing to pay for potentially a lot. So I think that you know that's not Newspaper, necessarily, although I think that does apply to the Wall Street Journal on but but I think that is another route for digital media lots of new digital media ventures are successful along those lines like, for example, the information and I think it's also pretty popular root for people doing independent things on like sub stack these days. Gave Nicola saying. What is about where Oscars initial point where I don't think print media itself needs to survive or those kind of industries but just their practices in like their reliability. The way that you know you can trust information that you're getting from them as well. Research. It's like fact checked and everything like that where like Nicole said the people who are after information news we get, it's never gonna be as popular anything like pop music or mainstream ideas. Just, getting. Fun Stuff but. The people who want news wanted information they're out for the reliability of it and we need those kinds of forms survive even if it comes to like digital for me to know that are the people behind the scenes game formation reliable, and if we could do that or difference media, then I'm all for it reliability. Also, the speed I think is interesting point hair, which is the if you get the print newspaper from times versus digital is still the Times. When I get the print newspaper as soon as as soon as the afternoon starts to happen I know that this stuff in there is old and her by still like consuming the print because I know there's not going to be any ads attacking my is. All over the place and I can just read it. It's fine I finish it is the end of the paper, and then I don't is the news never ends online. Realistically Lake doesn't that sort of make print sound better and how Useful Humus. Putting it. Yeah. I feel like that's just like you know things change and we're like, what are you way things used to be because you know when initially I'm going way back printing I are happened with the printing press people are saying all of our everyone's go blind because of all this time people wasting reading, we shouldn't be reading are memorizing things like the the old days but so every time media changes is always like a counter argument against like. Better the way that used to be I think you know social media now everyone like we talked about like time. Spanish so few on each Pacific thing the defending allow time on their phone they're looking at a bunch of different stuff and they're like God it's going to grow people's brains and whatnot because no one's focused on anything anymore it's just the way people adapt over time he was their use absorbing allowed formation at once now. So as long as they know better, society were absorbing reacting experiencing outright cycle day after day. More. Share. Your optimism. Are Not. Turning. To Mush but. They are heard this article mark. Is the old. The. Young. Join you mark. The of the millennials. Almost here. So US PRINT AD spending way to look at it as Nosema was saying, this is GonNa be twelve billion dollars as also five percent of total media AD spending five percents just ten years ago. It was twenty five percents of the Pie from twenty five to five over the last decade in terms of its slice of the Pie It seems as though prince is going to be the last thing to be brought back into senior marketers Ting channel mix according to some research from the World Federation of advertises. With video and display coming back quite quickly influence point of SAO TV prince a lot further down in terms of being considered again. There's a good note from the Communist Oscar we're reading for this episode saying the question of who pays for public interest journalism remains announced it but few think it ought to be Google and facebook that would undermine the principles of an independent press says Alice picked whole of Enders Analysis Research Company curbing the power of big tech is a matter for the world's trust busters which must not be conflated with bailing out press barons. Survival of newspapers should depend on business not regulation like the gossip merchants of Saint Paul's. Cathedral. In London they need to produce a product that read is a happy to pay a fair price for can they is the big question? Right I want anyone to try and tackle that question. At this point we'll leave it there for the lead story We're GONNA take a quick word from our sponsor cycle, and then we'll be back with in other news. In the world where brands are faced with changing consumer needs site, Sykora is powering the digital experiences. Exceed Customer expectations learn more about how psycho can help you create a memorable CX. The bill was brand loyalty and drives a competitive advantage to the personalized content scale and make digital your difference start. Now by visiting Sun dot com slash content hyphen platform Right folks. We're back today in other news fashion advertisers rediscovered black models, millennials in decision making roles and Tiktok as apparently overtaken instagram as American teams. Second Favorite Social Platform. Story one a piece in the New York Times by Ruth Laugh earlier titled Fashion Advertisers Rediscover Black. Models in the four our campaigns race conscious casting now matters is it progress or is it cynicism she continues? Quote black models have often made token appearances in fashion campaigns as part of a multi-cultural mix times change health crisis combined with a summer of civil unrest and protests against racism has forced a shift in mindset. Close quote mark as our demographics lease has it how advertisers in your opinion looking at rice and casting this point. I think in a way that the contest of progress and cynicism someone falls from I, think it's progress cynicism now leads these people to to cast a more diverse. A bunch of models I, mean that they there's been a shift in what they think is good for their business and and now they realize that the being more inclusive you know it is a way that they'll continue making money so. I it's not progress of a a highly unenlightened kind but it's more durable progress since it's kind of rooted in their desire to make money and their conviction that this is the way to do is get Oscar. Yeah I agree maybe I'm just being naive but I you know it's also one of those situations where it's damned if you do them if you don't, you know I it. If it appears that he now we're moving in the right direction folks on inclusivity I would say we've talked about body positivity and and now you know with including models of all if. I mean, you know, let's give credit where it's due and I'd like to think that this is kind of a step in the right direction and it will continue to see this David? Lipman. A veteran creative director was quoted in the OSCO saying we may see a substantial rise in black models visibility. By hope, it's not a temporary cover all base uptick to according to be international three quarters of millennials are now in decision making rose for the companies there was much more likely to use digital channels to become aware of and learn about brands mark It's also true that millennials are making decisions not just for the company's butt heads of households as well. How should we be viewing this generation at the moment? How much have they grown up on the BBC side? The articles talking about I mean. Yes. It is true that the more of them are moving into at least roles or there someone influencing decisions but I would say I in that sector The Gen xers are the ones that the advertisers should really be paying attention to the people were kind of running things. Now, they're gonna be running things for a little while before before they're ready to retire I would I mean I talked about boomers versus. millennials, but the Gen xers the ones I think me to be honest is there should be looking at a consumer side Yeah. I mean, let meals finally. Finally we're we're becoming steriod adult heads of Fowley household moving to the suburbs owning houses. Now. The the Dan pandemic comes along and I think that that's You know given them quite a bad hit. So obviously, I mean address NEAT NEAT needed to deal with the, but they're going to be a less lucrative audience Then they ought to have been right now again, I the great recession. We're just never going to have money. That's how it is Nicole. As far as how how far have millennials come I class myself with mark is one of the old in this. Just willing to join the boomer. Older. Generations Lico. With You If I could it would actually I prefer to be the breakaway Oregon trail generation, which I think Marcus you're probably also a part of. Yes true. Story Three takes because apparently overtaken instagram as American teens. Second favorite social platform after snapchat according to Piper Sandler thirty, four percent of US teenagers said snapchat was their favorite social media platform twenty, nine percent. Said Tiktok and twenty five percent said instagram. TIKTOK was in a distant third place. Just this past spring has since. Overtaken instagram for second place mark is this a changing of the guard moment for teens social priorities well. Interesting, you used the word moment because. You. Is this something that's going to last and We. We sort of knew that the teens were really serious about instagram when they sort of having a a faster of the fake instagram called all. I really. Cared about most. So. I think we'll know that the the tick tock is really here to stay with teams I if we start hearing about people having a a thick talk and. But that hasn't happened to you. We'll be watching to see if it does. Nasr more as a young person that doesn't really use audrey much I. think it's still like a trendy fame tiktok. It's Kinda like recapturing whole viniculture. We had a couple of years back or just people posting like viral videos in getting stuff to trend at the moment. It's hard to say that this is GonNa last for a while stabbed giants have been there spot for a good bit especially with all the political controversy surrounding So it's a Nice Winter Tiktok here, but I don't think it's GonNa Country Lash going forward I thought you were going to say as the one young enough to actually use. For, you rub it in and we respect you for that. Mark have one. Yeah. Blofeld. I. Blake tries to you into getting one every single week. They'll never take me alive. Okay good. Friends I. Sent. It's fun. It's fun. Very noncommittal you. Pretty much. Get usage however, instagram did remain on top for the by snapchat and tiktok according to Piper Sanders research our estimates have us tiktok uses growing eighty five percent this year with sixty six million Americans using the service by the end of two, thousand and twenty that would be just shy of a third of all social network uses. We have time for unfortunately. Thank you so much to my guests. Thank you to Nicole. Thank you to mock pleasure. Thank you to Oscar. Happy to be on. Thanks. And thank you everyone who's listening if you WANNA say hi Paul Kasey Monster Dot com for all of your emails. We'll see you guys tomorrow for the behind them as a weekly listen anytime PODCAST BRACCI by call. Thanking you very, very much. How how is everyone was that goods everyone feels okay. There's a lot of fun. Yeah. Sounds Surprise Oscar. That wasn't awful. Love.

Nicole Mark Oscar Times New York Times Oscar facebook instagram US Print magazine mark It Wall Street Journal Giga Marcus Johnson prince Mark F. analyst twenty twenty Tiktok
The Aston Martin of baseball (Ep. 71)

Section 138

52:59 min | 4 months ago

The Aston Martin of baseball (Ep. 71)

"Don't shoot draft all the. Other groups. To see the world. To the open spaces me. One hundred lesson flatters way to. Seventy one section thirty eight I'm your host Mark Collie. As always I'm joined by Bryson and Jacob. How're you guys doing good? How are you not bad? What will you Jacob? I am doing great. It's good to year and we have a special guest on our podcast today. We have Dayton from blue jays prospects on instagram. He knows all about the draft and all about the bluejays system, and that's exactly what we're going to be starting things off with today, so we're glad to have you on here Nathan. Guys so I. Guess just starting things off, obviously like I said. You're the expert on the draft here. You're the expert on the Blue Jays system so. I guess we can just run through first off. The Blue Jays picks in your first impressions of their picks, so we were talking before the podcast. You mentioned nick. Guy stood out to you. He was drafted fourth or in the fourth round by the Blue Jays. Was He your favorite pick of this draft. Was He kind of underdog guy that you like out of this draft by the Blue Jays? Yeah him and Cj van Eyck were probably my two favorite picks. FRAZZLE has a really good fastball underrated, and he gets a lot of a lot of extension, which is a big thing in the in the J. system. They like pitchers with lots of extension so Yeah I really like the frazzle pick. Yeah, and I guess everyone listener. You're at least for me. When I was watching this draft pretty much. The only thing I knew coming out of it was Austin Martin. You know he's the guy who's. Everyone's talking about. People are saying he's the next big thing What do you think about him in him? Following all the way to five to the blue, Jays yeah, he is. He's a special talent. I had him as my number one player in the class so when I saw he felt a five. I couldn't believe it. The seventy grade hit tool stands out from me as a something really special coming out of the draft especially at pick five I think that. It's a huge gap for the JAYS. And when? You guys have saw him fall all the way to five. I couldn't believe it because I. Don't know if bracing and Jacob if you guys were thinking the same thing, but in my mind was like okay. Number one is toward Wilson number two is Martin number. Three or four is what easily see and then it's a conversation about Zach Wien Everson Hancock I'm probably forgetting guys like I. said I'm not the expert on the draft, but that was like how shaping up in my mind, and there is no possibility that Martin makes. Makes it all the way to fifth, so I was totally shocked. You guys price Jacob refueling the same type of thing watching it. Yeah, when I was watching a Nathan I don't know if you listen to our podcast last week, but I gave a few names out that I. thought were likely scenarios for our. The jays would approach this year with what would be available for them at the fifth spot and again the the biggest names that marches just mentioned were most of them. You Know Zach Van I even thought Austin Mayor. Was a likely candidate I'm sure like you, said He. He was your number one player in your class when you did your pre rankings. I just I was thinking about maybe why he would drop I'm sure you've seen this. based off of the research and what we know sauce off of a Austin Martin is and that is he is a Scott Boras client. So do you think this may have had an impact on maybe him following a few spots just because? You know after his rookie was up then you're gonNA. Have to start dealing with Scott Boris, or even before a rookie deals a rookie agreements reached. Do you think maybe that had something to do with him? Falling with teams, just not wanting teve anything to do with Scott Boris I do think that had a part with Baltimore passing on him especially because they really wanted impact prep players in the second. Second and third and fourth rounds that I think with the amount of money Martin was gonna ask for I. think that did play a part yet. It certainly makes sense and You know I've been listening to you. Guys have about Ross. Atkins doing just his post trump interviewing, he pretty much just alluded to the fact that they were going to pick the best player available, and I guess it's pretty believable. From what he was saying based off of what we saw of how he was available and I guess Scott Boris is just something that comes along with. Having a deal with Austin Martin I think he's around the same age as Boba shed, I know he played with bogus, shut previously Where do you see awesome Martin potentially playing. Once? He reaches the major leagues just because. He is registered as a shortstop, but we know he can play other positions in the Infield and we know he spent time this spring. Playing in the outfield I personally see him playing. Centerfield went once. He's called up, but of course change. There's other scenarios. An example would be maybe Kevin Bijou playing center field instead so and moving over to second base, but the one thing is, that's noted is awesome. Earned comes with a lot of position flexibility. So where do you see him? Playing I know it's hard to predict now, but I guess based off of we know now. Even though if a few years can meet a lot of change from where we are now, yeah, I agree I like him in center field, or even left field I. think the arm projects well in either of those spots and I think third base has a good option to really good hands at third, and I think Armstrong enough to play at third too so Really it's GonNa come down to where the Jays need him to play rather than where he's best fed. I think I think he'll be solid in the field at any of those three positions, but I I really like him. In Center field I think the athleticism plays well out there. See I. Don't know I kind of think One of the Part of the scouting report for him mentioned how he was very athletic and fast, and I think. I mean Centerfield obviously you know you got to be fashion. Be Able to take charge there I. I think he would definitely be fit there rather than in the corner outfields, but also I think maybe the hot corner third base would probably be. A great spot for him and I know a lot of people are gonNA say well. Dorado is the third Baseman I. Don't know I think you know maybe shifting him over to first base credibly be daughter thing because obviously don't want to lose his bat at and I. Don't think you want to have a primary. We've seen what that can do for the Blue Jays in years past with win countries Morales. Third Base. Me Personally I. Think there is probably. The best option for them but hey. Centerfield I think is. A really good position for them and. I think one thing that will do for the bluejays is kind of. Get rid of the massive amounts of outfielders that they have because. You know they have a Lord Randall Grischuk. Tasker Hernandez may have like four or five other guys winter, trying to fight for these positions and I. Think if you just have one guy that you know is gonNA play there a few years that it kind of. Gets rid of some of the confusion and the uncertainty going forward yeah I. I definitely agree that he fits at second base and moving busy to the outfield. Cadets only be a good possibility. You mentioned another guy in the draft. Who you kind of picked up on his bluejays second round pick which Cj van Eyck. They took him out of Florida State University, and kind of fifty over grade overall pitcher, according to MLB DOT COM as a fastball curveball changeups tops out at ninety, five struggled with command in twenty twenty, but the. The Blue Jays liking him for the the stuff that he has in the pitcher that he can be, and you said on him earlier that you love his curve ball, and it was really solid pick by the Blue Jays. Why is this a guy that the Blue Jays like? And what do you think he can become either in the Blue Jay system or in the majors? Yeah I really like his curve ball. It's swing and Miss Pitch. He can control it really well. He controls his curveball better than his fastball. which is not something you see every day and I think it's changed very underrated at plays, really nicely office fastball and he didn't have to use it very much this season end at the end of last season it was really just a fastball, curveball mix, but I think it's ups good. One of the things I saw is that he doesn't have that high of a ceiling which I don't really agree with if he can develop his change up a little more I think ceilings. Decently high and also I think there's room for some velocity growth. With his fastball, he really doesn't use his legs too much in his delivery, and I saw some scouts talking about the Jays being able to get a little more out of the fastball, which I think was interesting. Some of these guys with the Blue Jays of course. We like to talk about. At least from me from first impressions with the draft, we like to talk about how great these players are going to be, but we also as you know rounds. Go on. You like to pick on these players and see what their weaknesses are, so it's interesting that his command is weakness, and as I mentioned just topping on ninety five miles an hour, but it seems like. You can. Teach to some extent velocity? No, there are programs now Dr Line Baseball stuff like that to get pitcher velocity up, but there's some things like you mentioned good movement of his curveball off speed pitches. Something's seemed like they're harder to teach, so it's nice to that. Van Eyck has what you might usually consider as something that is harder to teach instead of something that is, you know easier, more one dimensional in his fastball, and of course being a complete pitcher relies on your off speed pitchers, so it's nice to see that he does have those pictures the Blue Jays also took Trent Palmer in the third round They? took him out of also a Florida Jacksonville University and I guess now. We've talked a little bit about all the picks of course in the fourth round, recent Nick Foucault in an Bluejays taking Zach Brin familiar name in the fifth round. But. I WanNa talk about the Blue Jays approach in this draft because they took all university players, I believe all of them are twenty one years old and three pitchers to position players in the Blue Jays plant, as far as we know on taking a pitcher in the first round until Martin Seldom. So, what do you think of the the Blue Jays approaching this draft given that they've focused entirely on college prospects and mostly. Mostly pitching. Yeah, I did expect them to take a call to pitcher in round one but with Martin falling. You have to take him, but other than that I think their approach with solid. They got three pitchers who have big fastballs and the ability to spin breaking ball is something the blue jays really like as well so I think that was part of their approach and their last pigs Zach Britton. I think he has a lot of potential to develop some power in the J. system. His underlining numbers were pretty solid at Louisville this past season, so I think there's some room to grow for him I've really liked their three pitchers in the mid rounds. Yeah, you. Can you know in terms of drafting Martin? as He fell down the board, you can probably imagine you know as maybe when he dropped on three or four, the anxiety, and then the adrenaline pumping through the for office set. Hey, you know we may have a chance. Chance to actually draft arguably the best player in this entire draft class and ask further to add onto mark's question just because of their approach You know like Mark said they're focusing on pitching, but I guess they make up for it after getting Martin with the middle of their Pixel pitchers so three straight pitchers, and then they end off was accurate and so two to add onto mark's question, not only was their approach to take college. players, which was probably expected because of the rounds were were so short this year, but In terms of the rounds being shorter, you, you go from regular season of forty rounds to five rounds, so in terms of the Blue Jays approach. How? How do you grade them based off of this approach? Because we all know this is unprecedented times we know every North American sports are still are still missing right now. Hopefully, they're back within the month. It seems like we're going in the right direction for that, but in terms of this would know scouting at all this year. No minor league season likely even if Major League baseball comes back at some point in July the J.'s kind of I kind of worded it lot last week, saying they were kind of going in semi-blind. It was just something that they weren't. Totally sure because of the lack of availability to scout these players, but In terms of their approach. I guess you know even chain for old came on this year to help them out. I'm sure they did the best they can, and I was pretty. I was pretty much saying how regardless of how this looks in a fears. You gotta give. Office as well as the other twenty nine teams this front office, some credit for this just because of the lack of availability they had to. Scout on these players. So how how do you grade the draft this year? And you know how difficult it was to select these players in these only you know this limited five round draft I definitely think it was difficult for them to target very many. Prep players with not allowed information on them, and not probably the reason why they went five college players was just lack of information. On some players. Yeah, you don't see. As you know from previous years, players being drafted at high school. I guess that. Turns out for them now if teams wanted maybe sign them as drafted free agents. How how active do you think the Jay's would be in that process of signing undrafted players? Yeah, I read report today that the Jays are expected to be a big team in undrafted free agent market this Sunday, so it's going to be interesting to see. What position they target, I, know I bases a position of need and the system along with maybe some outfield. If there's any talent available, so it'll be interesting to see. Where they go, and all these teams are really. Like obviously they're they're still leaves normally in the draft. After you know the forty rounds. He's talent left that you can signed as undrafted free agents we're talking to Chris rallied a few weeks ago. Who is signed as an undrafted free agent by the Blue Jays, but it's so different this year because there's obviously so much more talent that has been undrafted, but also a different perspective on things from potential draftees from WHO. Who might be signing with teams because you can wait another year and the odds of you being drafted are pretty high. If you were good talent this year that maybe just missed draft, and you get a big payday next year instead of the I think it's the twenty thousand dollars. Standard amount that players will be signed to if they signed as undrafted free agents here, so certainly changes the calculus of it. And, it's very new a very different situation through the Bluejays, and really any team, and not allowed teams are comfortable in this situation, but it does allow for teams to find some sort of market inefficiency. It gives the opportunity for teams to. Try out new things pride. To break the system somewhat in find a diamond in the rough that you might not normally have the opportunity to find in a normal situation whether the affording men draft or you know a standard draft in previous years. Alright well. I think that wraps up. Our draft preview is anything you'd like to add that. Maybe something in particular that stood out to that a lot of people haven't been talking about in this draft you WanNa make sure people understand or know about the the way the Blue Jays drafted this year I. Don't think so. I think it was pretty straightforward with. What the wanted to okay well, thank you very much again Nathan for joining us. You can follow him. At Blue Jays prospects on Instagram, and he has great breakdown, not just of the draft, but also of the rest of the Blue Jays system to again for joining us. Thanks for having me guys all right well moving onto the next thing on our docket for today we have. The Yankees We've just been hearing earlier today that they've. There's a document from twenty seventeen. It was a letter I believe between the. Team and the League I I don't even know all the details of this, because it's just emerging, but price and you seem very wrapped up in all of this very energetic about it. What can you tell us about the news? That is coming out right now. Well as the Great Michael Scott would say Ohio. The turn tables and I was reading this this morning with I was ultimately shocked, because pretty much, what happened was a judge's officially ruled that A. A letter from Rob Manfred, addressing the two thousand seven, Yankee signed ceiling investigation must be unsealed, so I mean based off of what we know it's supposed to be about science. Stealing in this came from two, thousand, fifteen, two, thousand seventeen, so this is ultimately developing in. It's kind of shot. I mean I wouldn't say it's shocking. Because like I said we've discussed so many times. How much we think other teams without being caught by. It's just so ironic that. The Astros who were cheating for multiple years, and you know arguably the reason why they beat the Yankees this past postseason in the AFC s will now the Yankees are being ultimately investigator. You know people think there should be an investigation including myself I think you should be looking at this just as how the will be looked at the astros situation. And the Yankees were apparently doing it themselves and I. Don't know how they were doing it. I don't know if they were banging trash cans or decoding signs as much as the Astros. I think I think that's something to do with with apple watches, but it's it's. It's really interesting to see this because. You know again it's it's ironic with the Astros. Players I've spent all day reading. Astros players tweeting about this Carlos credit has been tweeting instagram ING. Alex Bregman has lance mccullers junior josh. Just funny gifts about all of this, and this is this could be. Depending on how this letter or what? This letter contains officially, but yeah, I mean if if the details come out and it does. Involve science deal you know I. Think there should definitely be considered to be investigated just like how the will be handled. The Astros situation by quite shocking and very ironic, because the astros ultimately did this to the Yankees. And now the Yankees are being investigated for something that has gone on for the past couple of years. So who knows what the future holds for the Yankees within the next couple of weeks I would say. Because, you know. The the the letter will be unsealed sooner rather than later. It's. It seems like we're dealing with pandemic on. Actual health like a real pandemic, but in baseball. There's cheating pandemic going on right now because it seems like every team is just being you know not just thrown under the bus, but actually involved in all of this. It's the Astros and then it's the Yankees and it's Red Sox and I think. I would pinpoint it down to the fact that there's all this new technology flooding into baseball and not just baseball, but real life, and it gives teams the opportunity to try the so in teams have slowly been. Thinking about the actual impacts that this can half of them on the field and thinking about how it can help them, and they've been slowly turning to it as a resource for them, and I think we've talked about it before, but once you know that one team is doing it to teams are doing it now. Potentially three teams are doing it. Although we did kind of already know, the Yankees were somewhat involved beforehand. It's like I don't know where it stops I. Don't know how many teams are involved in all of this and. It's frustrating, I'm not as frustrated with the Yankees has with the Astros Castro's won the world series, and we know all the details of their very extensive and very entrenched signed stealing system, but it's it's frustrating ever since two thousand twenty started. We've been talking more about. Owners players arguing and science ceiling more than actual baseball, so you know it has become funny and interesting and somewhat frustrating like you just mentioned so. Hopefully the send soon, but you know it's going to be interesting to see how if there is a season this year. How teams cheap this year? If they ever want to do some sort of science dealing with no noise, no crowds are fans in the stands by. You know it's calm. It's getting ridiculous on the these negotiation topics and the signs ceiling topics, and we're not even talking about the actual bluejays in particular anything with baseball, but Jacob. I don't know if you have anything to add. It's really frustrating to watch and. I mean there's so much bad news about baseball already right now, and we'll talk a little bit about that later that you know just adding another thing to the entire kerfuffle that we're in right now and saying Oh yeah, by the way another team. has also cheated. So It's really frustrating. that. This is a situation that we find ourselves in. I think we have to go back to the punishment of the Astros in the first place. Because we talked about it on the PODCAST, it wasn't enough. You know if you give the team. A choice of a winning the world series and You know taking the whatever they lost to draft picks in this year's draft, and they're fine of five million dollars and the suspension of their manager and general manager. If you give a team, the choice of taking that. In turn to win a world series, any team is going. Take that like it's not even a question so ultimately. The punishment that the Astros got was not enough to. Encourage teams to play the game the right way, and because of that I think we're GONNA see teams cheating in the future unless the punishments. Grow and grow and grow, and ultimately. We've talked about it before, but I think major league. Baseball should have taken away the championship from the Astros and if they did I think that would have been enough of a deterrent, so that teams would not cheat in the future, but right now I don't think the punishment that the Astros got in itself from Major League Baseball was enough to deter teams from cheating in the future. Yeah, unfortunately. The CY signed stealing scandal in this whole cheating scandal in general i. don't think that it's going to stop here I'm I was a little bit surprised to see that the Yankees were doing this. Although now after hearing this I. I can't help but wonder how many other teams were involved in this or involved in their own way. and. I think honestly this is ruining the integrity of sports in generally you know yes there. That can be. Done beforehand for any sporting event I think baseball is probably one of the most analytically involved sports, just because of you know pitchers, e those different pitches in different signs and whatnot I think. The way that this is kind of. Become well. We're gonNA watch videos before the game to see what the star of the opposing starter can throw against us to now. We're going to. Have L., apple, watches, or bank, trash, cans, or just kind of turn baseball into a circus. His is ruining the integrity of the game and. I honestly I think the only way for this to actually. Stop Is. You know maybe some cracking down on rules where you have anything on your wrist, then you're automatically suspended or whatever I'll. Maybe that's sounds too harsh, but. I don't know I. Think it's. It's definitely. It's not good for the sport especially in sportwear. You know we've kind of seen. The interest in it go down over the last few years, at least in my opinion of seeing around the people I interact with. I think canal introduce. To them, that's a lot of big teams. Big names like the Yankees are involved in some type of cheating. Little Be Y. GonNa Watch baseball. If you know nothing's really going on, that's should be. It's a bunch of people cheating when it comes to the the punishment like you said when we look at the options, when we all agree, like we like you mentioned mark. We don't think it was enough any even if you'll get the red sox punishment, it wasn't even close to what the Astros. Were punished for even though we know a lot more about the astros acid. Than the red sox situation, but the one thing that's both related with those. The suspensions of outscored AJ Hinch, and if it were up to me, or if I was GM, and if it comes from any baseball fan, you know. I personally believe that both of those people will will manage against someday doesn't matter. They won't go back to the original. Teams very unlikely and I don't think it will happen, but. If were team in hiring manager. I would be tempted to hire them so in terms of president. Jacob I think the one thing you have to look at. Is You know how long does it take before? You have to set a new precedent because with this Yankee situation that's developing. Let's say there's an investigation that's. Conducted, an! Punishments were given. No, you can't. You can't just significantly up. This is the punishments for the Yankees themselves. Because if you think about it, you have to give it some some sort of based off the the amount or how much they cheater different ways they used. You know you you can't. You can't just up it from the the Astros situation. You know if you're the Yankees. You're looking back on it. Saying okay well at the worst we're. GonNa lose a draft. Pick worth billions of dollars who cares five million dollars is worth five bucks for us. Who I don't know about suspensions to maybe Aaron Boone I don't know it again. It depends on who was involved and how much. Cheating was actually done in those couple of years from two thousand fifteen to two thousand seventeen, but you can't just up the suspension for the Yankees. It's just too close of a gap from time limit in my opinion. If you want to set a new precedent, maybe you wait a few. Maybe you wait a couple years. I think before then you use you say you come out after a couple of years and you. You set a precedent and. And, like you said, does it include you know waving or stripping? Teams of titles may be but it all depends on how much they want to go with this, but in terms of a Yankees punishment, even if it comes down to it, you know I. Don't see it going anywhere close to an astros punishment or anything less than a red sox i. don't see it going anything further than that. Unfortunately. Yeah I agree I think. The major league. Baseball set a terrible precedent with. How they handled the astros cheating scandal, because like you, said a World Series Championship in exchange for a couple of million dollars. Suspensions anybody would take that I am anybody with you know integrity would would not take that, but I guess what we're seeing here is some people don't have that integrity, but I think. You know say. The Minnesota twins just pointing around and Tim. O. Saying we hear that they they were also cheating last year or a couple years. We hear that they're cheating. I think if they were to get a worse punishment. Than they could argue that well. Why are you giving us? You know three times what the extras did him. Kind of setting this president of well. You know you cheat you kind of get a slap on. The wrist is gonNA screw things up in the future because then. Like. I said people are GonNA compare what. Other teams did severity of what they did and compare the punishment they got to what? This other team is getting I think. Your someone's GonNa get. Screwed over I. Think in someone's going to. Some team is going to get A. A punishment that they feel is unfair, but I think that honestly has to happen. If if any of this is ever brought up again, anybody cheats. because. They screwed up with the original precedent, but you have to. You know somewhere down the line. So you know what actually we don't want anymore cheating. If you do it again, you lose a World Series Championship. I don't know you lose. You know L.. Most of the players have four fifth or salary, or whatever they do. They WanNa do something so that you know this does not happen again because. Cheating just what's the point of playing? Your opponent knows everything that you're going to do and it's just. It's not fair. It ruins the integrity of sports. And just one last point I want to bring up on this before we moved to our next topic. This I was just reading a little bit more about what's actually happening in this Yankees situation and it was a letter from the league. To the team, which I didn't totally know beforehand, but. And the plaintiffs in this case are saying that the letter will reveal further signs stealing than any of US knew publicly so. There's another conversation to be had about the frustrations with the League in all of this because they're investigating themselves like there's no accountability really for the teams the. The the owners are the ones who support the commissioner. Rob, man and rob. Manfred is supposed to be on the side of the owners and the owners. Don't WanNa talk about signs stealing because. Of course it's going to hurt. Their bottom line hurt their public image, so it's just it. It's kind of a joke. The way the system works and I don't really know that there's anything you can do to fix it i. don't even know if the players association really wants to have this black eye on their reputation, either with signs stealing so like the only way to fix it. Is You know investigations by newspapers and media entities, so it's a frustrating situation that Major League Baseball Ken. Just you know. Brush this under the rug and just say okay. We're not gonNA. Say anything about it until. A big news organization like the athletic comes out with a big report about the astro science stealing scandal with a whistle blower inform of Mike fears like. It's really frustrating that Major League baseball can just ignore it. Until they have to be held accountable for all right well, we'll move to our next topic. WHICH IS BASEBALL IN TORONTO? Brayson this is another one that you're very passionate about and I can't totally understand why, but let's hear it. Oh, okay. I'm just. I I. Know I've been texting. You guys and you guys, are you? Guys are probably reading like. I'm someone with two heads. look I'm just saying. I think. The, the Jays and I think the federal government before any anything to do with ruling it out I. Think you have to consider just consider. It doesn't matter if it's in out September. Sorry August or September consider at some point this year of Baseball in Toronto now. Look I know there's going to be no fans in the stadium. I understand, but I just think. It it personally. Benefits. Me personally because I I just feel better about it and I think it would be I. think it'd be cool for to actually happened, but. Look I I. Don't know if it's really gonNA happen based off of. Cova numbers Ontario It appears that this week was good again. I'm no doctor, but just looking at Grafton. Project projections. It seems to be good. You know yesterday on Friday June twelfth. It was below two hundred. The growth rates down and etcetera, but you know the we know. The NHL is looking at hub cities They're GONNA do to hub cities for when they return and they WANNA THEY WANNA play in Canada for at least one of the locations, and they said that the only way to do it is if the? The federal government can maybe wave the fourteen day quarantine role, and probably probably do something else. Maybe more like constant temperature checks daily testing and I think that you know if the NHL and the federal government can make an agreement. You know why why can't the why can't they won't be considered for it and the only thing I'd argue against that is while if you're looking at the NHL situation, they're going to be in a bubble. Leave unless you're limited while in baseball, teams are coming and going including the Jays, but I just think it's something that you know. It's a conversation to be had, and I think it's a conversation that needs to be addressed before we rule anything out, I just I think it'd be cool. I don't know how much fear there is early. Prime Minister Trudeau really thinks it. I don't even know how many how much conversations they'd had. We do know that JAS have They have backup plans. They have They have backup plans to play in Dunedin. Even Ross Atkins revealed other MLB stadiums. Maybe, even buff he mentioned Buffalo, but it seems unlikely scenario would be Dunedin. Who knows if it's actually GONNA happen? It's meeting being the optimistic side of me, but I think if numbers continue to improve and I think if the if Ontario continues to move in, you know further stages of reopening as most of the provinces now in Stage two, which means more things were open in social gatherings or extended I just. I think it's something to consider I. Know It's going to be rare and I know a lot of. Problems are ahead of you know if the NHL could make a deal with the federal government. Why can't the be or the Jays? Try and get something done at least try without. Completely ruling out without some sort of agreement. Yes, I think you make a good point. Don't just completely rule it out This week, actually I look at a I if I remember correctly. Ontario actually had less than two hundred. Kobe cases each day on Friday. I think it was one eighty two or something like that. You know so. They're definitely going down Compared to I think two weeks ago or a week ago where it was like four hundred cases per day, so you know this is definitely a good thing. We'll see I. Guess in a week's time after the the protests. If something happens if there's a spike, hopefully, there isn't but. You know the cases are going down. To consider however I think they need to stay down for a consistent period of time in order to allow. Teams to come in and out of Canada because like you mentioned. There's no fans than the question is. What's the problem with it? But if players are coming? A whole organizations really are coming in and out of Canada. Than You know I can see people kind of raising some suspicion about what's going to happen and if that's going really. have an impact on the number of cases and. I look. He did Mitch the NHL. Also interesting, however I think the reason why the NHL would kind of be. Allowed to to do it is just because of the hub cities where it's you know you have. I think it's twelve teams coming to Canada, or Toronto or One of the cities, and then they just kind of stay there and they leave. As, they get eliminated. Compared to baseball where it's you know the Blue Jays the only Canadian team, so they're they're either in Toronto or they're out of it half of the time and you know a new American or new group of American players are coming into Canada every once in a while, so it's definitely. Like, you said it's some living to consider. I think the biggest issue would be the quarantine because. Why are you going to sit in? Isolate yourself for two weeks just to play three to four games and leave. You know so, that's that's probably the biggest deterrent, obviously besides health you know. You got to keep people safe, but I don't know I think. You know it's definitely something to consider, but I think. He probably maybe this year. I think it won't happen just because. You know I think they WANNA wait for the cases to go to go down and stay down just before they you know. They reopened because I think this week. or I should say, but the health officials allowed MS social gatherings to an Ontario to go from five to ten people and aside from the Greater Toronto area. They're starting to open up. Businesses barbershops all that stuff so I think you know as these phases are. Are you know? As they unfold. That, that would probably be the best way to watch and see what happens because you don't want to open up the entire province all the sudden because we'll be back. Where we were in April but yeah, I think. If. If the. Number of cases down they stay down, and the quarantine is lifted that I think. Y Not I'm I'm not against baseball in the skydome. Even if people don't go there, just be nice to to see the place on TV before mark before you add on. Of course, it would be I'm not saying you start the season in Toronto you know who I'm just saying that they got to consider it. An all possibilities in the other point I, want to make is. Cases in Ontario Comparative Florida are completely different Florida cases are now spiking in the state as well with other states like Texas and Arizona where you're seeing upwards of thousand new cases a day while you know life and Florida's pretty much based off videos I've seen obviously I. Don't live there and none of us do, but it seems like covid nineteen is something in the past. For them, you know people are walking around, not distancing. It's pretty much been like that ever since. covid nineteen became a pandemic, but the other thing I want to consider as if cases Florida continue to spike, and Ontario continues to drop would not be considered safer to play an Ontario, and that's the other thing I want to look at, and you know what comes with it. If you if the government really gives a green light on this art, our players supposed to be lockdown hotel rooms, even if they come in Toronto or are, they allowed to go out and that's the problem. With this whole thing because the symptoms can develop of upwards of what two weeks after you actually exposed to it, and if you don't know about it, then, then it could possibly. Infect a number of people so I think there needs to be some sort of guideline. Nail down for players once they come into the city that hey you you. You can't really go out. This is an irregular summer where you can spend an evening or a day out depending on the time of the game in the city, but the other thing I would argue is that. Where would people want to go out regardless like anywhere in including the United States with other than peaceful protests, which fully support, but other than that you know. WHY WOULD YOU WANNA go out? Why would you want to go up so much? Possibly? Put yourself a greater risk, so it comes with a lot of pros and cons, but the the one thing I do. You guys to consider as well as the cases are kind of the opposite in terms of Antero in Florida where Dunedin is, and that would likely be where they would start, but Ontario is going down while Florida's going up. So that's the the last thing I want. You guys to consider before you disagree with me. I mean all the different jurisdictions are doing different things like. The Canadian government is handling this a lot differently than the US government so I think that's the primary difference that we see even though cases are declining in Ontario end as you just said. In? Florida. Florida's not feeling very responsible with the way that they're. Handling their. You know social distancing measures and stuff like that but. At the same time I don't really care where they play as long as they play I. think it'd be awesome to see them at the Rogers, centre, but ultimately like I said I don't really care. It doesn't make that much of a difference from using them play in Florida, and if they can play longer in Florida if it's easier logistically for things to work out in terms of fourteen day quarantine, or whatever then I'm all for it and on the same Venus, this actually saw because I live in new, Hampshire where the New Hampshire. Fisher. Cats played the double A. Team for the Blue Jays and they have their stadium northeast dental delta. Dental stadium into mouthful but There was a tweet from a local reporter who said that there's a possibility that the blue jays could play their season even in Aa at Fisher cat stadium, which is like a twenty thirty minute drive from my house, so. I would love that because it would mean that they're nearby and if I don't know if the fans are allowed in the stadium eventually, I can watch the Games but Yeah, it's ultimately. I don't really care where the play as long as they are playing, and they're doing it safely and eventually. Hopefully fingers crossers an agreement between the players association and the owners so that we can get to that point I don't know I just think it'd be cool. I think it'd be cool for them to play where they're supposed to play. It's a comfort zone for them. I'm sure Dunedin is to anyway, but you know based off of previous seasons. They spend more time in Toronto, which is an OBE which is obvious, but. Who knows what the future holds in look, deal or no deal with the Union and players officer Union employers, the Union and owners. There's going to be we. It appears that there's GonNa. Be a baseball season in a month's time in a month's time in cove in the covert world is a long longtime because we could be at a completely different point next month. You Know God. God. Forbid were seeing increases in cases again in Ontario wherever you live, whoever's listening and for you guys, but or you can, it can be even better you know. I, know I've what I've seen based off of the the rest of the World New Zealand's the first country to actually declare that the covid nineteen free, and they had zero cases. The borders are closed, which will which will? Is Obviously smart from to continue to do until there's I, guess the wrestler world's Kovin free, but it was just to see know rugby's or sport over there in New Zealand. It was cool to see fans return full capacity, no restrictions, no masks, no social distancing. Not freaking out that someone's beside them. They just wanted to watch rugby. Which is their primary sport of interest? And it was just cool to see, and hopefully we get to that point sooner rather than later. It's because of a vaccine or because of us, following the right guidelines in Canada and. Whole fleet somewhat gets better in the United States, but again like you mark, you mentioned. The United States is completely different in terms of what they're handling. other state that's opened up his las. Vegas you know there's I? Don't know if you guys have seen that video, but there's somebody smoking, a cigarette in Las Vegas Casino with their mask on so that was interesting to see and other than that. It's just it's it's. It's all different for everybody, but who knows where we are in a month, it could be good and got fed could be worse which we don't want, but yeah I again. I guess it just. We just WANNA. See at this point like you. You said you don't really care mark, but I just have this fetish for some reason. Where have to see them in Toronto for myself for me to feel better about it, but who knows what's GonNa Happen and I'll go back to what I said a few months ago. The Blue Jays are entirely all of Major League Baseball. We could just play into different country and I'm sure. A lot of players would be more willing to play in New Zealand than they would be in a place like South Korea so. I'm. I'm still saying that. You move the season to not New Zealand. You can play with fans. You don't have to do all these restrictions you could. Play for however many games, and I'm sure. Lots of fans will come to the Games there in new. Zealand, so you get fan revenue. I'm saying a good plan, but in terms of plans in agreements I hate to talk about it because it's just so annoying to say the same thing every single week on this podcast, but. Players Association Major League Baseball going back and forth again now Major League Baseball has proposed a seventy game season with think it's eighty percents or seventy percent prorated salaries. Which I should note is the exact same amount of money. The players would be getting if they're playing fifty games so I don't know why they wanNA play seventy games. They're just increasing their risk, not just from the pandemic, but also injuries and at the same time they're. They're they're making the same amount of money so. It's so frustrating so frustrating. You actually took my point because I was looking at that in terms of the pay, but I'm GonNa start things off before it gets to that and say Commissioner Rob Manfred I know you're listening, but you know from my perspective and from Reynolds Richards Perspective which we saw last night. It's time to not waste any more time. Implement the 48-game season because it is not happening I'm gonNA guarantee it now. There will be no agreement between the owners and the players. I think it's a netting. We're beating around a dead Bush now and I think you're only wasting time on the calendar, and in terms of a start date I think the earliest are looking at now July fourteenth, so that's what a month and a day away, and this is something that is. Is going to have to do players want prorated salaries I'm not gonNA talk about this too much because we know they. One hundred percent paraded salaries, the owners continued to not offer that. So what else is there to discuss other than? That's not what the players want. You said they're making just as much money. Playing seventy two games on eighty to eighty five rate salaries rather than one hundred percent on a forty eight game season. Why go out for another twenty? Twenty Games for free and risk injury and potential exposure to Cova nineteen. It's pretty simple, implemented forty a game season unless you want to offer more games with one hundred percent Because if you do that, guarantee you. The Union will accept that because that's what they want. They want more games. Pro Full paraded salaries in the owners don't so. That's a simple as it gets from my book, but I think it's time to implement this forty game season I know the. The deadline for this horrible offer is supposed to accent on Sunday which is tomorrow and rancid at the draft. How it was supposed to lean towards the players favor, and fortunately fell for it and got excited for nothing. So you know whatever day it is, Monday, Tuesday implement the forty eight game season tell the players went to report layout the guidelines properly safety and play ball, because like you said Mark It's frustrating, and you're only wasting time now on the calendar because. You're wasting time, so you hope to play as many games as possible, but it appears it's going to be forty eight games, which is less than a third of a season. It is a sprint and I think. Bluejays, wise, it is great news in terms of potentially making the playoffs with comes with expanded playoffs. We I at this point. You know we just WanNa. See some type of. Some something you know we've seen the NHL in the NBA of a much easier time coming to an agreement I keep in mind. They really just had to do the playoffs, but you know the MLB seems to get nothing done and every time somebody. presents their their case or was something to the opposite side just seems like. It's not what they wanted her interest it's. Makes my head spin honestly. I JUST WANNA. See Baseball at this point. MLB is running itself into the ground like they just seem to be wanting to. Ta Mok this season like pretty much committing suicide this season because they don't want to make a deal. They don't want to budge at all and I don't know if you've seen the tweets going around, but people saying like MLB offered half a dozen donuts in then the players association said no, so they offered six donuts, the exact same thing and the players association, said no, so they offered two sets of three doughnuts and the players association. Association said No, and then they offered three sets of two donuts MLB in the owners are just offering the same thing over and over and over again, just rehashing and redistributing the money, but it doesn't make a difference. The only thing that the players association's going to accept because they agreed to it at the start of the season is fully pro-rated salaries, and the fact that can't get through to the owners, and they seem willing to run. Not just this season, but the entirety of Major League baseball into the ground for. Ten more years for fans to fully trust the teams and the owners and the players again. It's so frustrating to watch day after day after day, and I don't know if you've seen Andrew mccutchen sweets, but he just describes it with one word L. All. Toby, you know he's done that twice now in the past week and you know I really hope I'm wrong, because in this case I hate being wrong. Obviously, everyone needs to be wrong, but in this case I want to be wrong, you know. I can't believe I'm even giving it a sort of window. I'll say one percent that they make some sort of agreement, but you know we're getting to the point now. Where man I can have no choice. There's no other time there's no there's there's no other time now to wait another week of completely complete negotiations that go nowhere so I'm thinking Wednesday at the latest is when you have to make. The announcement of Forty Games announces schedules. The report dates all of that. That's easy. That's something that they can figure out quick, but it's not happening I just I. Don't know why the owners continue to offer less than hundred percent pro salaries when. When the Union, pretty much said. That's all they're taking. Because again paraded salaries to begin with is a pay cut, so you're you're asking them to take a pay cut, and then on top of that another pay cut, and you know I guess they think that guaranteeing more money if the playoffs or canceled the something that they would budge on, it's not implement the forty two game season. Because hopefully, this is the last week we talked about it and hopefully next week. The announcement of the forty eight game schedule will be released, so we can finally actually talk about blue jays predictions, and maybe they'll be some sort of schedule that comes out by then. It's so frustrating to watch us. And I just hope something gets done and I said this on in our messages and I mean. Don't call me a traitor, but I think Tony. Clark the head of the IMO bph doing a horrible job I also think that the owners are obviously doing a horrible job, but It's just there's so many underlying issues between the owners and the players association like this all started with a pandemic, but it's not just a pandemic. There was underlying faultline sour ready to burst open before this whole thing started and. The Players Association. The owners were already knocking heads in this is just giving them the opportunity to to to declare an all out war, and it's so frustrating to watch day after day after day, but we'll be back here next week and we'll probably talk about the exact same thing next week because. That's what the owners and the the Tony Clark requiring us to do, but. yeah, so on that cheerful note I think we'll wrap up our podcast for today. Thank you for listening and for sticking around through her frustrations. Thank you to pricing and Jacob Nathan for joining us on this podcast as always you can review second thirty eight on Itunes, and you can follow us on twitter and Instagram at section one thirty pod. Thanks for listening and we'LL CATCHING A. Your rap. Array with just one last week. We, are.

Blue Jays Major League Baseball Astros baseball JAYS Yankees Austin Martin Jacob Commissioner Rob Manfred NHL TORONTO Bluejays Mark It Canada Ontario US WanNa players association Jays
Michael Mauboussin  The Four Sources of Alpha - [Invest Like the Best, EP.126]

Invest Like the Best

1:06:55 hr | 1 year ago

Michael Mauboussin The Four Sources of Alpha - [Invest Like the Best, EP.126]

"Ooh. No. No, no. Hello. And welcome everyone. I'm Patrick Shaughnessy. And this is invest like the best. This show is an open ended exploration of markets, ideas methods stories and of strategies that will help you better. Invest both your time and your money, you can learn more and stay up to date and investor field guide dot com. Patrick O'Shaughnessy is the CEO of Shaughnessy asset management. All opinions expressed by Patrick and podcast, guests are solely their own opinions and do not reflect the opinion of O'Shaughnessy asset management, this podcast is for informational purposes, only and should not be relied upon as a basis for investment decisions clients of Shaughnessy asset management may maintain positions in the securities discussed in this podcast. I guess this week for the third time is Michael mogayon. If there's a major question about markets in investing Michael has usually written one of the best pieces of research on that topic. Today's conversation is a mix of several of his research pieces, but focuses on the sources of alpha. The framing of the conversation is the brilliant question who is on the other side of a given trade if you're buying who is selling and why knowing the answer to this question is one of the keys to understanding where excess return comes from as usual, Michael. We export tons of other interesting ideas that will serve food for thought. Please enjoy. Michael, maybe a fun place to start this time because we were talking about it for hit record is for you not to go into each vertical. But give the rough syllabus for the class that you teach because these chunks, I think represent a great way for people to think about building out their own sort of market -cation. And then we're going to spend a lot of time talking about the sources of alpha today and valuation measures. But as framing I think that the outline of the course would actually be a great place to start. This is of course, I've been does might twenty seven year teaching this class, and it really has evolved over the years. It's basically is broken into four chunks. And by the way, if you see most of the work, I do you'll see it fall into one of these buckets. And the first is, you know, markets and market, I call capital markets markets, Mark inefficiency, and sort of the big questions. I tried to pose. There are what is the market care about. And should we be focusing more on cash flows earnings how we economic value and the second component really is market inefficiency. So why if you're an active manager, why do you think you can do better than a benchmark the second? And big block is just on valuation, and this is translating prices in devalues in value into prices. And there I spend a lot of time on talking about traditional metrics price earnings being the most prevalent, EV, da enterprise wide EBA, and what's good about those things both their limitations are so as say student, you have to earn the right to use a multiple like if you you have to understand what's behind it. And we also spend a lot of time on return measures like return on equity return on assets return on investment capital, and so forth. And there we actually talk in some stuff on capitalization. So here again as an investor evaluating company. How do we think about how they allocate capital? The third building block is competitive strategy. What are the economics of this industry where the economics of the company that I'm studying and the key is think this businesses, particularly good business? What underlies it advantage is that some sort of consumer advantage sort of production advantage where the factors behind that. And then the fourth one is one that I did not have at all when I started. This course, many years ago, but his actually probably now, I think perhaps. The most important component is decision making and really organizing yourself to think about the world probabilistically organizing yourself to think about how you're going to be effective at integrating new information, which I think we all struggle to do and thinking a lot about things like base rates. So as a Quant, this is something that's very natural to you, and sort of in your DNA, but I think for a lot of discretionary investors and a lot of people just walking around in life. They don't understand or think enough about base rates, and how those base rates can be incorporated into their day to day decision making to improve the quality of their thinking in general. So those are the four sort of building blocks, and again, you'll see the most stuff I do can fit into one of those areas. Pretty well. And there are a lot of sub components to those. But those are the big four evasion before that the last one kind of decision making may have been the last into the mix. But man fact, be the most important thing that you now talk about what do you think the lowest hanging fruit is for these obviously, incredibly smart competitive, people that are in this business that maybe aren't taking advantage of this of this part of your curriculum. It's interesting. I don't know Roger Federer's the greatest tennis player of all time. And I think Roger Federer spends a lot of time practising. So he's not just playing matches. He's practicing and practicing means you're breaking down what you're doing to try to get more effective doing it. And I think that's one thing in our industry that sometimes people don't do enough of is thinking about what they're doing and thinking about how they can do those things most effectively and introducing specific tools that we now know can be helpful, and allowing you to be more effective. So part of it is your whole life people on elite schools, and they worked really hard, and they're out putting a lot of stuff, and they don't really spend a lot of time thinking about how they're coming up with her results or or their decisions. And so that to me is is a big part of it. And it in a look I've been very blessed to have a career to have some time to allocate to this to think about these kinds of things and every time I sort of stumbled on these ideas like base, raise or pre mortems or red team blue team and actually start to think about how to implement them you realize, I don't know why everyone's not doing these things all the time and both they're not super time consuming. They're not super expensive. There have. More. So that to me is the one thing I would highlight is you can have incredibly smart people, incredibly hard charging organizations, but they may not be efficient. They could be or should be because they're not thinking about how they make decisions. So another thing that we Ariffin on a bit is this idea that there are huge accepted concepts take to EBITDA, which already mentioned which everyone throws around most people use a lot of people talk about but very often these concepts. We just accept them without ourselves doing the work to get to the root level of what the hell's going on. And so I wanna do that root level work with you today's on those two concepts specifically, so we'll talk about valuation, specifically Biba EBITDA a little bit later. But I want to start with this idea of where excess return were edged or alpha might actually come from everyone throws around the same framework, which is behavioral analytical informational and maybe structural or or trading friction type stuff. Several says those are the ways, but no one has really until your paper sat down and said, well, how true is this is this the right framework where each of these things come from? So if you could begin. By laying out why you started down this path, and we're going to go into each of those vertical. Buckets one by one to really lay it out for people. I was indulging that as well sort of those things, and I ended up using the acronym Bates just sort of I was clever so behavioral analytical informational and technical. But like you said, I just use that more as a convenience than anything else. This is not an uncommon thing for me, which is I will pontificate about something like I participate for years and years about capital allocation, tell my students kep locations, most important thing sussing managements, and and I really had very little to back covered. I was actually saying and then finally kind of got off the stick and did a much more deeper dive on that. So this is one of those areas where I think each of the many of the components that I talked about in the piece or things that I had thought about or they were not complaining novel, but really trying to ground these things and sorta solid what we know in academia, a strong academic work, and then really trying to create for people a very important question to pose every single time. Who's on the other side? Why do I think I have edge, and then give people specifically checklist at the end to say. Like, okay. Here's why I think there's something going on where I have I'm in a better situation than others that was sort of the background for the one thing. I'll say right off the bat. The one thing I thought was really interesting that I'm not sure I'd read a bunch of times, I didn't really internalize. So really one of the big things is this is the famous paper by Grossman and Stiglitz. So sandy Grossman and Joe Stiglitz wrote this paper in nineteen eighty called on the impossibility of information the efficient markets, and that's a it's an important paper. Obviously, given the time it was written in nineteen eighty this is sort of the peak enthusiasm for the efficient markets was the late seventies. And these guys their argument was hey markets can't be perfectly efficient because there's a cost gathering information and a cost implementing it, and you should get some requisite benefits. Las pedersen's. Got this. Great phrase Margaret's are efficiently inefficient. But this sort of makes a clear demarcation that they're sort of two different markets. We're dealing with one market the market for information. And the second is the market for assets. Basically how you can implement that information, and you can be in situations where the information super clear and obvious, but it's actually hit. Hip or impossible to implement that to make money now. So the famous example that was in the late nineties three com on palm pilot, and they spun out five percent of palm pilot that thing went bonkers. So if you bought a three com share you owned the three com business, plus busy ninety five percent palm pilot, and it turns out because Pompeu skyrocketed the value. The three compasses was negative twenty two billion dollars. So this is the most obvious trade on the face of the earth. Which is you short. Palm you go long three com. You cannot lose money. But of course, there was no borrow. So this is this idea that we also had always just information. But we have these frictions we have to think about and it's really both those components that are super important. So that's that was nothing just leading into the whole discussion. That's something that I probably people know about arbitrage costs and frictions and so forth. But I probably I think sometimes in the academic literature is understated a little bit. And I think I probably wasn't thinking about those two things or making that demarcation. Is clearly yeah. In the paper. That's definitely the thing that a loved that framework as a precursor to each of these four verticals to thinking about those. Two different markets as so incredibly important. And it keeps happening like it happened with yahu Alibaba had happened with nascar's and ten cent that same story just repeats as as a great example. Let's begin with what I think is the very popular category of behavioral edge. So I think you had a line in there somewhere like beware behavioral finance? Yeah. So so let's start there. That's a great place to start because there's a simple it's almost like a syllogism, which I think is incorrect seems seems crap. But it's not which is something like, this individuals you and is individual sub optimal. I'm we could use a Terminator rational, but we're sub optimal or just. We don't make perfect decisions. Markets are made up of people. And so Mark it's must be sub optimal or irrational some way and that seat is not follow from a and b and so this goes into the idea of the wisdom of crowds, the key for for crowds to be smart or markets to be smart as really a number of conditions, including diversity or heterogeneity of the underlying agents and their belief systems some properly functioning agregation mechanism. So you can have people with different bits of information sitting around the table. But unless you have some. To bring together, you're not going to be effective and then incentives, right, which is a reward if you're right and your penalize if you're wrong. And so, you know, you not can be both. You'll recall president, and I can be over-confidence a seller and buyer and we offset each other. Right. So there that's a really important ideas that you can't conclude that marketer, irrational, just because individuals irrational now that said, of course, we do have episodes, obviously of extreme pessimism extreme optimism. So the more fundamental question is why the markets go from wisdom across the madness crowds. The only thing I'll say about behavioral, and this is kind of an important special because and I kind of go through this distinction my class, we talked a lot about psychology the issues not really psychology psychology, the unit of analysis and individual what we're really talking about. It's more sociological, which is like how to groups behave in a group setting. And that's a very different thing. Now, here's the thing. That's really important is the reason this is so difficult to exploit is because by definition, we're all humans, right? And we wanna be typically want to be part of the crowd. So the point of maximum optimism means the most people are it's like a magnet is the most powerful. Drawing you to that conclusion at the point of maximum pessimism is the magnet drawing. Right. So unless you're extraordinarily your temperament, your those extreme you're going to be drawn to it. It's almost impossible to not be Daunton almost by definition telling you, that's the most people have been drawn to it. So these behavioral things are not just unite competing against one another it's us competing as this thing called the market and the market is going to be much. So that's I think that's a really hard thing to recognize that reser all these little individual biases and those are important things in life in a market context. Those are not quite as valid, and I and I think PPO so that's why I said be here not not to say you need to understand those things and think about them and management your own life. But just recognize like that's not going to be the answer to thinking about the behavioral inefficiencies, I think simple as that. So if you think about each of these things we'll start with behavioral as creating like a supply of error. So like who's on the other side in each trade, assuming that sometimes people just need the cash, and that's that's a that's a worthwhile person to buy from the let's assume it someone also trying to compete against you earn. Us return. It's zero sum game to some extent to a large extent. So you have to be able to say like, okay, there's a supply of investor error how much of that supply comes from these different buckets. Do you think and in the case of behavioral to begin? What would need to be present for you as a person making a trade to feel like some degree of confidence that you know, that the air is being made like what are the specific areas that you could take advantage basil you're asking like what percent of the air comes from each of the buckets. Yeah. That's a really interesting question. And I'd love to get your answer on that. Or what you think about that? I was thinking about this and the other day in some ways would just say the taxonomy is a little bit contrived because at the end of day. I guess you could say probably everything's behavioral right at some level. I think tumble into that box on some level. Yeah. My sense is if you look at how to quantify this. But I I was specked behavioral is the biggest one. So something more than twenty five percent for we're going to think about that way. I think information is probably the least rights most difficult one to do there. Are there certainly episodes where they're certainly retrospect you can see Saudis infant, and then it would probably be technic-. Cool where their technical doesn't probably day in day out. Probably not a big deal or it's a little bit every but periodically its gargantuan thing. So this is like huge unwinds, and you know, arbitrage, and we can talk more about that. And then analytical, I think is interesting one, and perhaps the analytical thing really would be it's more subtle Brett. But as I think, maybe the most important component. There's really like time horizon thing, which is so and then how do, you know, the second question is how do you actually know? And I think that's a really tricky one. But the first thing that, you know, for example, in behavioral warnings, we talk a lot about the sort of most established thing in the literature is this idea of over extrapolation. So you sort of take this, and I think that's sort of the backbone for things like the value factor and so forth and even momentum. Right. You say to yourself the things interesting about over extrapolation is that you see that every basically everywhere. So you know, I was actually doing some work for different purpose on well as actually having like long term contracts for baseball players, right? And so it's not it's not uncommon for a player if the last couple of years before it goes for free agency has couple of good years that that gets extrapolated even though. And you'd say like, okay baseball GM's like the and they've analytics team they've got the data. They got the data and they got like it's a big money on the lives of millions of dollars. Right. Like, they have a lot of incentive to get it. Right. And yet still see this as a pervasive thing. So this idea over extrapolate, and we know is really hard for people to overcome. And you know, how do you offset? How do you realize you're on the right side of it is I think is to say the overshot relations led to a price either high or low price where the set of expectations embedded in that price are simply unlikely to unfold as that price implies. So it's like, it's a probabilistic statement. If something goes way up like a bubble accentuation. There is some probability that they will the company will deliver as -ticipant, but chances are probabilistically you're better off beyond the other side of that trait. So and everything we're talking about probabilistic. But I do think the behavioral wants probably the biggest source of these returns. But again emotionally, it's the most difficult actually exploited. Another way of thinking about this is how either even or lumpy the distribution of these edge. Are through time. So if eve already mentioned this idea that points of maximum optimism and pessimism in the behavioral bucket. Those probably represent one of the greatest of opportunities to earn an excess return going the other direction, but everyone names the same examples of euphoria through time in there fairly lumpy and clustered. So they're not evenly distributed through time. So how do you think about that concept from an active manager seat? Why thing first of all that's correct observation? And there's another thing that's really important and all this, which is sort of agent in principle agent type of issues, which is exactly to your point in sort of the greatest moments of opportunity is often when people who should be acting don't have that they don't act, but more importantly, you don't have the capital to hack, and that's you know, we spend time out that mostly in the technical thing. Which is there you can go back as you as you put on aren't that many huge cases of this? But you can go back through times and trace out where sort of the epic arbitrage opportunities existed, and you say like where would the arbitrary this is on Matt and math the simplest thing ever. And they didn't show up and the answer's they didn't have. Have access to capital because the way their principles often were freaked out. And hence, they as agents can be as Julian Robertson closing shop in the late nineties. You know, precisely so I think that's sort of a thread that runs through all this which is to say it's easy to say in very difficult to do. But having the right kind of principle capital stand ready to take advantage of these opportunities becomes so he a day in day out. You know markets are pretty tough to be. But again, you get these opportunities time time there's a line. I hope I get it. Correct. From Seth Carmen abou- post where he said something like the definition of great Klein is one who caches a check when we write one and writes check when we asked for one and if he's doing his job correctly, right? When opportunities that's become really robust. He asked for more money from his principles, and they write him a check and he can go out and exploit those opportunities. And by contrast when opportunity sets are thin, you'll say, here's your money back. You know, you can go off and do something else with it. And that's a really interesting, given how we've institutionalized lot of this principle as and stuff, it becomes a very difficult. Thing to realize in real life. I love that. Because one of the things we've talked about actually talked about it. I with our friend modest proposal from Twitter, the the anonymous genius investor and the operation was the entire active management business is sort of built like opportunity is evenly distributed through time. But but it really isn't. And that may be often times the best place for an active manager to be as an SP Y and to wait an act when there is an opportunity, but it's incredibly tricky to do because some of these principal agent problems the next one in is critical. And I I think this one is is fascinating. Right. Because I think there's no denying that. When you meet as many investors as you, and I do you just know there's a difference in some investors in terms of the depth to which they're able to process and interpret the same data that other people have and I really really loved the section of your paper talking about how this actually manifest in terms of who's on the other side of the trade. So walk us through the analytical edge, and where the sources of that might lie. Yeah, there two or three things that I try to highlight their one is is simply can you compete? People are just less sophisticated than you are. And so I'm sure Patrick you're a better tennis player than I am coughing her of that. And so if we play tennis on the weekend, you're better at it. So we have the same racket and the same tennis shoes, we play the same corden same clothing and so forth, but you better. So I'm now the truth is obviously individuals are becoming less and less part of the market. And so that's one thing another one I've always been fascinated with and it's related. It's actually in some ways, you could say behavioral, we call concept of information waiting, and there's really pretty rich literature on this in the world psychology. And the ideas you have I mean, it's called predictive validity in strength. But it's this idea you're saying like there's a strength of a signal. And then there's how Valda signal is. I think we get confused by that analytically. So the question becoming like I'm going to flip a coin is it kale biased or something? Right. So the first ten flip seven shows up tails, what do I do with that? And so that's a strong signal that it is tale by but the sample size is so small that the validity of it's very low by contrast. And this may not seem toll the intuitive. You flip the coin ten thousand. Times and it shows up tails fifty one hundred times that's actually a much stronger validity is much vastly stronger. But this strength doesn't seem as high just sort of like fifty one whatever. Right. So that ability to be able to distinguish and that it goes ahead with so we tend to be tricked by small sample sizes and analytical is sort of having that really clear in your head. Probably the the biggest one for me. Maybe the two biggest ones are idea of updating our views, effectively, we call being a good basin. But you know, if you said to me one of the biggest like of the cognitive bias is one of the most challenging ones, you know. I was probably overconfident be on there. But the one I would probably say is confirmation bias, which is to say when you're especially when you're discretionary manager, and you side to make you make an incision in essentially, try, I it's hard not to fall for the confirmation bias, which is you're going to seek information that confirms your point of view, you're going to dismiss information that doesn't and if something comes into ambiguous, you're gonna it's gonna break in favor of you. Right. You're all the jump balls gonna come your direction question really becomes how do you become really good at having an open mind and updating your? Views as new information tumbles in and that's a I mean, that's a big one. I think analytically and the last one, you know, in unite talked a lot about this over the years, this idea of time arbitrage, which is you know, how do we think about playing for different time horizon than others? And that goes back, the signal noise another good way to think about that know, it was time arbitrage me would be something like when the market is reflecting noises. If it skill and pricing that way and you for so for you to succeed time arbitrage, hey, you have to understand the signal better than the market second. The signal has to reveal itself and third you have to be around. Right. If that the money with capital at that. And so those are the three sort of conditions but playing along game, it's really can be if you're if you're good can be a really big advantage. So those are some things I've thought about in terms of analytical. But again, they're they're all very tricky. Tricky both from principal agent points of view, but they're also tricky turn to the thinking right because we tend to get fooled by small samples, we tend not to want to help eight of us one of the things that I'm always interested in is for any given type of advantage. Chill. Let's take time arbitrage as an example does that piece of the supply pool of investor error tend to get eaten by a very small group of people. So you mentioned Clark, which I think is is somebody that I heard him speak once where someone asks the question. Well, how can you expect do as well with all this capital? You have now shouldn't more capital inhibit your ability to do. Well, and his answer was no actually, it's the exact opposite of that. In this case because what happens now is with our mindset in this sort of time arbitrage when one of those opportunities presents itself, that's big. We're like one of the only buyers that can do it. So we face less competition, and obviously you could say authored or someone like that is in a similar bucket. So do you think that there's accumulating advantage to something? Like the ability to execute time arbitrage that just clusters to a few people. Sure. But you know, it's interesting. But these also, you know, Carman's I think very unusual in the sense that he's been willing historically to run very high cash balances and his portfolio and the way if I were to justify that. So no most firms don't do that mostly because unallocated says we're gonna give you our money. And we want you to invest in large cap equities, or whatever it is. Right. And so go do your thing. And that's kind of the bucket, you're in for our portfolio. I think sort of the argument in favour, what is doing is saying something like over we're going to have excess cash, but that is for us an option, and we as an organization are thoughtful about exercising options. Well, so this becomes like who's got the options, and like Berkshire Hathaway just sort of canonical example it because it's an insurance business where money's flowing in every single day. So they always are going to have more money to play tomorrow than they did today, and that gives them the the ultimate optionality, and that's super hard to replicate. So that's, but there are organizations trying to do that, you know, like, call on capital, you why why would this big southern southern wolf funds not say like, you even you could do almost like Ulysses contract, right? Like, if these levels communists, if the spreads and high yield bond market get to expresed, we're going to call you up and say write a check for X amount. And we're pre committing to this thing. Right. So that those types of mechanisms might and by the way, if the spreads get that level. I can. Issue. They're not gonna wanna write the check. It'd be free. Right. That's precisely the point of it is like, so I I do think that is a that is a really interesting concept. But again, generally speaking being much bigger tends to be deleterious to results. That's roughly true. But, but this is a case where he can give you the option value become the last person standing, and you think about even like if you had had you read a big enough check to take over long term, capital measurement portfolio. You would've done just fine. Right. I mean, so, but in you know, he called Soros and buffet, there aren't very many people that they call to make that right? That check. So let's take your order you put before which would lead us to think too technical next. And then we'll go to informational last weight. It's bait of eight. But I'm going I'm going to order a of the the weight of the pool that the that the stocks have. So the Technic one is is actually the one that probably gets cited the least, and maybe is the most obvious when you read about it, which is things like the flow of funds and for selling, and and things like that limits to arbitrage, etc. Talk through the categories here. And why this might be a really interesting source of earning excess for yeah. I mean, the first big one is just other people. I mean, the the basic I try to define it something like people are buying or selling for reasons that have nothing to do with fundamental. So they have to their hands basically forced and I think throw the classic one on that. Or one of the best developed ones is the work by Giannakopoulos Yale on the leverage cycle in the basic story is pretty simple, which is optimistic people like an asset. Usually for good reason. The lenders tend to be quite generous so haircuts are tractive. And so they can borrow a lot to do that as it goes up. Everything's good. And then you know, some bed. Bit bad news comes out, and then so that asset goes down. So what happens off? The number that was a feedback cycle on the way up and now feedback on the way back down, right? Which is you get a margin. Call you have to sell some of the asset. And then by the way, at the same time lenders go, gee, this thing, we give you these really good loan terms. That may we think that so now you need more put more collateral, and so that forces even more selling so you get to sort of cascade up and cascade down. So when you're selling because of margin, call you're not selling because you think it's overvalued or fairly valued selling because you have to. So that's a great example again as you put it out before these things, I think tend to be quite episode, but those things are really big deals fund flows in this, you probably know much more about than I do but fund flows. I've always found fascinating and tend not to be. I don't know they tend not to be the center of a lot of discussion for some reason. And and there's sort of two angles to this that I find interesting one is I mean, there's a fair bit of empirical work on that people tend to give money to managers who've done. Well, they tend to take it away from Andrew not done. Well, and of course, we know, and this has been really well documented that if you fire manager and hire managers often the case that the fire manager does. Better than the hired manager in the subsequent twenty four months or something like that. And so there studies a plan sponsor this just that. But there's another interesting component, which is disentangling flows from actually performance, right? Which is there's one really interesting paper in the financial astronaut for years ago where these guys up to a third of alpha and quote unquote alpha in hedge funds is a consequence of flows. So the basic narrative is fun does. Well, skill or lock whatever more money comes in. And of those guys do the money they buy the stuff they own and that makes it go up more. So it's almost becomes like again a positive feedback. And then eventually that affect of course, fades and the same thing when you when you get redemptions what you have to sell the stuff you own. So you get the sort of compounding a fact that that's what super inching just looking at how people are spending money by the we played around this. I I'd like to keep working on this. And you you might know much more about this. But I was thinking here's a simple model like pick an asset class or a sector and industry. Whatever it is. And just ask a simple question. Like what I look for two signals one is like positive flows, and like more than once entered vision for historical valuation and just. Short those and then negative flows and once entered Egyptian cheap and go long. And it's like that would seem like an incredibly simple algorithm that may actually be pretty good. So I don't know if you guys have played around something like that. But that that would be something I'd like to continue to explore. There's another one I thought was interesting which is related to the flows, which is idea like demand shocks into his great paper by golfers and metric much years ago where they talked. I thought this mind blown so the first paper one of the first kind of factor oriented papers was in the early nineteen eighties on small Capper's large-cap. And basically, these are like, hey, small-cap is actually really good gives you better return to you're supposed to get from Cabot, so nineteen Eighty-one. You're like, oh, I got it, man. I do by small cats. I'm good to go for that. You would've got smoke. Right. Twenty years so conference metrics these these two economic what's the story here in this? And the story is basically we were getting to institutionalization money management. And as a consequence people individuals are giving their money to the big mutual fund companies, those the T Rowe, price, infidelity, fidelity and capital. And by the way, what are their incentives their incentives were to buy large. Stocks why because they're easier to okay. So so these guys are like in pure academic theory demand curves for stocks are basically horizontal, but we know in real life. They're actually sloped our, and so these guys their argument was it turns out that a reasonably decent chunk of the excess return of large cap was what they called demand based return, which is just based on flows. And that's we're not talking about like months, you're talking about a twenty year fifteen or twenty year, periods ain't got another really interesting one is asking about the demand base. And by the way, I think in the early two thousands. We actually saw the opposite of that. Which was if you look at like hedge sort of golden era of hedge funds when they were decided was really after the dot com. Bubble burst. Right. So called whatever from two thousand and two thousand six well, what was going on? There is that you had extremely high valuations for large-cap extremely low valuations for small and mid cap, and basically the hedge funds were long small stuff and basically under exposure short high stuff, and that was an incredible trade. But the very fact that they were buying those Smith though, small. Recap stocks itself. Credit demand for those that actually helped them their their own performance. And then, you know, the last thing we've talked a little bit about which is historically. There have been instances of tremendous sort of mathematically tremendously. Interesting opportunities for arbitrage yours and because of principal agent problems. They just can't show up, and you know, and again like long-term cap me like the very famous on the run off the run bond story from long term capital management. It's it's textbook arbitrage one. Oh, one since you know, thirty year bond twenty and I have your is simple and straightforward you can possibly get it. Just the spread. We just kept going the wrong way. You just because there was no one there to take the other side have your views evolved at all since maybe our last conversations about the impact and thinking here about specifically flow funds that ETF's in particular, and I'm really talking much less about like, a total market index and flows into funds like that because you know, kind of by definition, they're buying the whole thing, you know, vanguard total market, but there's obviously been a huge growth of whatever. It is sub indexes by following a whole bunch of different rules. And the any sort of distortions or alpha opportunities that flow of funds in ETF specifically create in the market while I I like to get you probably have a more informed view on this. And I do I think it's incredibly interesting question or spent a lot of time thinking about active to passive in general, and obviously, you know, sort of the traditional index funds like you said may not make any waves, but sort of ETF things specialization seems like it should have an impact. And that my first line of thinking on that my framework might be something along the lines. What I described before which is this particular ETF Goldie making this up, whatever Goldie Tf, or whatever it is some some some sort of thing where it's very narrow has become very popular with flows, and if we have some sort of way of calibrating valuation, just look for extremes, you know, like lots of money in and high valuations lots of money out, low valuations and so forth, so that would be one element. And maybe the other thing you put in there. As a wrinkle is ask about are there differences in quality sort of liquidity parameters for each of those different things. So, you know, huge large cap companies liquid. He's not an issue, but you might starting to get into you know, whatever stock. Wchs fifteen hundred down where they have ETF participation where the liquidity may not be quite as good that could be also another factor. And that goes back to our first thing on information in implementation. So yeah, I've I've not, but I that's an incredibly interesting. And it's interesting question about a good friend who's sort of backing this guy who is trying to invest in companies in the United States who are not involved in any indexes reteach s so little you run a screen on every company that's involved in indexing Tf. And then you look at how many companies the residual or not in the orphans. Right. And it's like, and again, I don't think it's a big. He's run. Amount about money in that. But it's really interesting because they're you know, that there's like no there's nothing going on those things right anyway. So that's one factor that I've heard of which just kind of we haven't done the work on it. But you take the aggregate weight of stocks like the average weight of stocks ET apps and compare that to its overall market weight and companies where it's overrepresented ETF's, perhaps that's somewhere that you should apply factors or super cool rights sort of same mindset right over representation. But I mean, I guess you are making. I mean, you're the premise there is that's excessive in some way way overweight, adore its way. And it's only like you can only look like ten years or five years. So that the sample is small, right? But it does seem like an interesting the orphan ideas, always interests. Yeah. But that even though the sample size. We don't have enough data on that. But that is sort of fits that's an intellectually, I think worthy path to explore because there's some other stuff behind it. That would make it a sensible place to search. So the last one is informational and in some ways, this is the one I'm most interested in because I think that it's very obvious that if you have better or more accurate. Information on a security than the market does. That's a source of edge. The interesting question is how and where do you source that information edge? And I'd love to hear your thoughts on like pre and post reggae FD in whether or not regularly effectively neutered the ability to even gain this kind of edge. And to the extent that there's one that remains what that looks like today. Yeah. Obviously, this is I think the most difficult and you'll see I mean, you sort of see that I went off on some other sort of not they were related issues. But yes, getting the information before everybody else. Look, there's got to be an original source information somewhere. Right. So this can bite me sort by definition go away. But every regulator every law is going to try to encourage the universal dissemination of raw material information so forth. There was on the regular d I mean, and by the way there there's a lot of academic research on this. I think it was the case that large, for example, large mutual fund families would have access to management teams. And we'll get information that was clearly advantageous to them. And that was quite clear because you see the ALPHA's pre reg impose ragged for some of these large mutual fund families degraded. Think. So there that's pretty good evidence. But there's another study at I was even was also super cool on this which was when Righetti was put into place credit annals were exempted. And by the way, that that was reversed in dodd-frank in two thousand ten so there was like this eight year window where actually at equity analyst could not get accident formation. Got you gotta side by side and actually flip both ways. Right. They had it. And then they didn't have it. And it turns out that the information embedded curry changes in that window were vastly more consequential than before and after so super cool. Right. So that there's some evidence that that's going on. And then the other thing on information. I okay. So the other thing I think these are these are sort of two tricky areas, but one is I've been fascinated by this literature on and I actually did a whole conference on this topic. But this literature on a limited attention. So the point is like I can give you tons of information. But you can only process a certain fraction of it. And you know, so obviously, the very famous Chabrier three the grill walking cross video of the people throwing the basketball is right. You're like if I'm. Focusing on one thing which is counting passes. I can't see something that's incredibly obvious and important this coming across the screen. So there's a really interesting literature on this sort of attention thing. Which is it turns out that investors tend to they're like little kids. Right. They pay attention to what's glittering, and shiny, and they ignore a lot of other stuff that's around them. So we're not call at ten information. But that's you know, you're just as important it's important just discounting stuff. And then the last thing, and this is this is probably where you guys are doing some work as well as and I think this still remains probably one of the more interesting angles is in litters called task complexity, and which is there a lot of moving pieces, and there's information in a value chain. Sometimes the market tends to be slow and reflecting in in in the appropriate actors throughout the chain. So so that's, you know, tax compliance more complex task is more difficult. It is for people to figure out what's going on actually implemented. So so those are some things information on a look, I think that a lot of for example, lot of discretionary investors continue to. And as you get there probably can be some is there some art to it. But they continue with sort of the Fisher scuttle butt thing, which is say like, I'm not gonna have any special formation. But I'm going to gather information from gleaned from a bunch of different sources, and I'm going to put it together in a way that gives me a better picture than other people. Now, the other thing I I should ask you about this most effectively, which is it does feel like there is an arms war in terms of this stuff. And I make the decision is paper, which I think is pretty obviously like the difference between data which is things that are presented to you and information, and those are different things. So like data by itself actually doesn't do much for information. And it technically information information's, what reduces uncertainty information is what's really valuable. So then these gets in these really interesting questions like do. I need the same date as everybody else. How good I might translating data into information that allows me to act on a way that creates value, and that's a whole nother, really. And that's probably more of the Quant world. I would you guys are thinking a lot about data versus information versus how I can implement that information away that allows me to to generate attractive return. So in many ways, it is the most interesting things, right because the stuff has. To get out into the world and has to be reflected in prices. And the question is are there wasted to pick up advance along the way? So we've got this very detailed framework. So maybe there's something small missing. But it feels fairly complete. You're gonna earn alpha. It's one of these four reasons right like, and it's one of the sub components that drives the for reasons. That's the reason you're going to be able to do. So with that in mind, I'd love to hear your impression of with a very interesting career being both on the sell side. And on the buy side for chunks of time with gaps in between working with Bill Miller now working at blue mountain, and then working sort of more on the sell side research side in between those two stints. What has subjectively changed in your view, the most between your experience on the buy side? So in that period of time like what are the major most notable evolutions that you've noticed. I mean, look, I think that they're a few things one is diffusion of information continues to be incredibly rapid things get out there, and they're cheap. Right. So that's an ongoing forever phenomenon. But to me, probably the thing that's most note worthy is the introduction. More serious integration of quantitative or systematic approaches to sort of this. How do we get to this holy grail of taking the very best of what machines do and allowing them to do that? And the very best what humans do and allow and I do think there's no question. There's a role for humans and all this stuff. Even if it's just how you're going to set up your algorithms, and the judgments you need to make doing that, and really how you integrate those. So given that stuff not that much consideration probably fifteen or twenty years ago. And I think today's front and center, it's not super clear to me to anybody's completely cracked the code, right? It's like an ongoing thing and the other thing I find it just observational is feels like these are still two different tribes. The systematic tribe in the discretionary tribe, and they have sometimes they kind of look at each other funny. And you know, so who who are the people that can really sit at the middle of these things, and that's an interesting question about, and this is probably one way to think about which is to sort of a value chain between sort of identify miss price occurs to delivering good returns in your. Portfolio as you look at that value chain asking the question along the way like what would be better done by machine won't be better done by human. And where where do we try to figure this out, and let me give one example to me? And I think that where there's actually huge amount of opportunity is portfolio construction before we went online, and we were talking a little bit about portfolio construction in insist matter but full constructions like a really intriguing which is at the end of the day. If you, you know, you're trying to do, you know, your constraints are it's basically math you have inputs that he's distribution inputs. And you put them in a in a ways such that you optimize for your objective, given your constraints very few. I think discretionary people do that in a way that the that's mutually finger in the air kind of stuff. And you know, how could you be more rigorous? I mean, that's one area. I'll tell you the other thing I also found I've been super excited about over the years is that if I endeavoured to be a long term oriented investor rice, I'm looking at a make this up. I'm looking at two or three year time horizons. It really is difficult for your discretionary, right? Because you put the stock in the portfolio your. Long and it goes down on my right or my wrong. That's an interesting question. Right. So part of that is to say are there mechanisms to give us intermediate feedback that's useful and timely, right? And so that's where the work by fil Tut lock and others on things like Brier scores. What's sobriety? Scrub Brier score is a measure of the quality of your probabilistic forecasts and Glenn Brier himself, by the way is meteorologist. So is basically like judging, you know, you woke up this morning said, you know, x percent chance of snow. Whatever was how accurate those forecasts? Right. And so the way of Brier score works is go through the math. But basically zero means you've nailed it. Right. Every day. It's sunny, you say sunny Everyday's rate, you say rainy and Brier score scaled go to one or two skill to. Let's say is you're wrong about everything. Like exactly the opposite. Though, if you have Bryant to useful to that. So to way, keeping track of problems for another couple of things that are really important about this one is whenever Brier scores are kept. And then given that feedbacks given back to decision makers, whether it's meteorologist or people the medical field, or whatever they get better at this get better calibrated. So the feedback gets makes people better. So you say, okay, what does that have to do with investing? While you think about you have a thesis on a stock get I'm a discretionary measure a thesis on a stock what I should be able to do a priority is lay out the path that I expect the feces of path I expect again, it's deviating from what the market beliefs that's a really crucial thing. And then I should be able to assign probabilistic forecasts to certain signposts. So I believe that their sales are going to be higher than the market believe. So there's X probability that sales will exceed this amount in this quarter. And I can give a probability. So now I've set myself Brier score, right? Which is it's a probabilistic forecast. It's within a specified time period. We can agree on the outcome. And it's important to our thesis. So it's a beautiful wave sort of. And now all of a sudden, I'm giving you. All this intermediate feedback. And by the way, it opens up we talked about Beijing updating before it also opens up your mind to say Hm, I thought this was going to happen. It didn't let's talk about whether we're in the right same place in the thesis stone folding correctly. So so those are like that's technique. That's yeah. Super cool and Bowie. It's the same thing. You can use businesses can use it. So you're you're operating a company, right? You're running your management firm. You might say like, here's what we expect to happen. Here's the probability expect to happen. Let's think about it. And then just get better. So it's this idea of intermediate feedback in a field that a feedbacks very messy and noisy. And again, if you're using two or three horizons. This is the way to give you sort of way points along the way to to make sure you don't think what would have fascinating loop that. I bet almost no one does like like at the discretion. I know of a couple of firms that make their analysts discretionary analysts said of those one that comes to mind input their all their data. And then they can use that to train a model or whatever. But my guess is like nobody does that like a straightforward thing. And you can write it down, and you know. It's not hard to do. You just got to be disciplined. And the thing is that some of these techniques. It's not like it's way they're not super expensive for fancies, not like high flute and math. It's really straightforward stuff. But again, and the other thing I'll just say about that is it. It is interesting that I think in a lot of other probabilistic fields the really best people do documented. So I I think you look at the really the best GM's and sports, they think a lot about this this way, and they try to document anything about poker players when we were talking about anti do a great example. He's an amazing decision making person in general. But this is the kind of stuff, it'd be very second nature to what she's doing what they think about and, you know, having people and even getting people that are that are sort of like minded critical like minded people around you can really be helpful. There's a great story about Phil Ivey. The the Michael Jordan of poker if you will and his obsession with even after Windsor tournament going back and documenting each decision and basically doing the equivalent of of a prior score to the extent you can't do that and poker. I guess, but it's it's so interesting to document the stuff we're gonna talk about e. But you mentioned GM, and and sports, I know as a passion of yours, and it's just kind of an interesting way to think about some of these ideas. So if you had to be GM and extra points, if you name the specific franchise, but I'm more interested in the sports where you have two goals, the first is just passions. I'm just curious like where you'd most enjoy being GM in what sport. But the second maybe more interesting is if your task was to go win a championship, which sport, do you think this kind of stuff that we've talked about would be most applicable in man. That's really interesting. So I grew up playing soccer. And even though I love soccer. I don't much time focusing on it is hockey and lacrosse I across in college. And actually last night. I was with some friends and spent three hours time all across the ticks. So I I would probably have to say just in terms of Mike, fundamental interests, probably ice hockey, and I think ice hockey's probably the furthest behind a lot of the other sports and trying to pin down somebody's analytics you again, like baseball's pretty sophisticated and recently, I was with Jeff Liu now who's the GM the Houston Astros and. They're talking about what what is the frontier Astros. Phenomenal job. Jeff done a phenomenal job in the question is like it's the frontier, and you know, Jeff was like he's very cagey about it. But he's like a lot of it is sort of biometric stuff. It's like can we really measure how these guys work physiologically? Can we measure what they're eating how they're sleeping in all kinds of things to have sort of these natural performance. Maximize IRS not sort of an interesting whole next domain or or even look at the mechanics of how these different players will will throw or hit or whatever it is. So baseball's the furs of a basketball is also come really far along on way, you know. So Daryl more at the Houston Rockets and what they're doing. And how they think about it. Sam hinkie hang around with these guys. And you realize they've got really good sense of what's going on. And how to optimize results hockey? I think football's and one just seems to me that there is some Bill bell check. Some these guys are just operating a completely different level. The super bowl's an exact example of inertia McVeigh's, a great young guy. He's got a great career head of them. But I think that's like that wasn't that wasn't even a fair match in terms of coaching so football. But football's the thing is a lot of football is like a really good head coach. And usually you need a good quarterback quarterback such a key thing and the whole thing, but there's a ton a ton of opportunity though, and football for sure there's a ton of opportunity because I think the football guys don't know a lot of stuff and to actually play by play. And I also think that they're still it's gotten a lot better. But even game time decisions, you know, and the classic ones putting on fourth down. But even two points versus one points clock management so forth by hockey's a little bit like football too. Which is I think that there are a lot of just traditional people that do it. And lot of the coaches are people who played in the game over time. And so it tends to be more difficult to crack baseball for whatever reason. So to let the sort of academic type guys in right, and they they've been between the oab Stein, and Jeff Liu now, and you know, the moneyball guys these. Pretty cerebral guys. And they've enjoyed some success. So so to me hockey's that thing where it's still I think probably very early days analytically, Superfund sport. But it's also there some really big challenges. One is that it's a very difficult thing to chart hard sport. Because there's the the move is actions are not hard to get you know. And then the other thing is and even though there are roughly six players versus five players in basketball th-, and they'll think the seasons the same in hockey, you know, your star for drawn the ice, whatever tw- low twenties twenty three minutes twenty four minutes twenty two minutes, whereas LeBron James on the court, essentially, the whole time where he may take a minute or two off into quarter something, but so that just the dynamics are different. So it's it's the sport Justice for sample sizes for maybe baseball. But this it's the ones closest to randomness, which is interesting. So, but I think that's another early entrance so stuff like and that's again player acquisition. How do you value players goaltending? How do you think about scoring goals? Shop breakdowns, and there's a there's a really cool analytics hockey analytics community out there and they're doing some. Neat stuff. You're things. I'll just play severely hockey Cy still play. And you know, it's funny because that's in my head actually is I play. We'll give you one examples like with a guy who was a money manager. Russia was really into hockey guys. Like, you should never shoot. Like in lacrosse, you can shoot wide because you can back shot doesn't make any difference basketball. You she misses shot. So I'm gonna try to rebound it in hockey. Basically, you never wanna shoot wide ever. Because if you shoot they're only three things can happen. Right. The goalie can save it which is a savings. It'd be a rebound. That's usually good goalie saving covered up which is a face off in the office of or it goes in there only three things can have. They're all good, basically. They're not bad. So shooting wide can be really bad anyway, so probably hockey. And I think that I just love talking to all the analytics guys, and it's fascinating to me only. Because again like you think about the NFL huge dollars moving around these franchises were billions of dollars. So we're not talking about the equity value being at the frontier, not chump change. Right. And and yet they're still like a lot of talk about our inefficiencies. So I will mention that. I sent this. I sent the report to a couple sports guys and wanted to go back in there like, yeah. Dude. I know this is investing. But this is actually our world. This exactly what we. Zac, same stuff. So I was like that's pretty cool. Right. But in a way, what we're talking about are just probabilistic fields. And so pretty much if it's you're making decisions in in the rumble probability pretty much all these things are going to come into play one way or another. So we'll close with two really interesting back to investing topics the first of which is by back. So just because I've got you here. This has become strangely like some sort of roszak tests. Like what you think about buybacks tells you a whole lot about who you are which is bizarre to me. I'd love to just like take two three minutes to set the record straight here. And just get your opinion on what the source of this is like what is so hard understand about what to me seems like an incredibly simple mechanism. I don't I don't know. I'm with you. I'm like mystified by this whole thing. I do think there is an underlying thing that that is probably a real least concern, which is the companies generally speaking, the United States have pretty good returns on capital. They're generating a lot of cash. They're not growing that fast. Man. We had good growth last year. But part of it was just tax induced. And so there's a lot of money route. And so the question becomes what is the best way to use that capital? And I can see the point to say something like g you got money want, you pay your employees more g got money want you build a new factory. Right. So that's understand that sentiment to some degree now on the on the wage thing, by the way, the thing I think is hard for people to look there. It's about competition. Right. So you and I both have a restaurant. We're basically the same in every way. And I decide I'm going to pay my employees a lot more than your employees, assuming that there's no change in behavior of my employees, and that's a big assumption. But assuming that my my police have behaved the same as your employees to I'm gonna lose to you. I'm gonna go out of business, right? In other words, you're you're gonna lower prices to the point where I become non-viable. And I'm gone. There's a notion of competition that somehow gets lost in this discussion. That's report. Now, you might say, hey, raise your salaries by thirty percent. That's gonna lower your turnover in your training costs and so forth. There may be there. In fact, meant Costco, their examples of where that is a very valid legitimate strategy. I but going back to buy back. So I, you know to me, and by the way, the other thing is by batch really weren't legal until nineteen eighty-two for bunch of different reasons. And so to me this I can't I I don't understand this at all. I mean, and by the way, the repatriation this whole we had a tax rule gave people some green light. They had to bring the capital back at some point and returning it to shareholders in some ways seems to be not unreasonable thing now one of these I've talked about, and I do think this is worth at least thinking about when you're looking at a company buying back stock, and and and you guys I'm sure empirically by companies a buy back stock that tends to be good thing. Right. They do. Well, but they're sort of I call it. The three motivations one is sort of like, the market efficiency and motivation. Like, we don't know if Mark is our stock is cheaper expensive. But basically, we've got this capital. We're gonna return it back to shoulders by back consistently. Sometimes maybe overpay under but on in washes out the second camp is the intrinsic value. Can't we will be very strict will only buy back their shocking when we deem it to be undervalued. Now, most management teams think their stocks, always undervalued. But you know, there's there's some guys that are better than others. You know, we'll Thorndike were great book the. Outsiders, and you look a lot of those folks in there who are really smart by backers. I happen to be the analyst covered Ralston Purina for many years. Bill steers was a genius at this. He would he was really good about buying it cheap and laying off his dear. And then the third camp was what I call him pure motives. And I think that's the other thing where this comes up, right? Which is the impure motives says buybacks could be accretive to earnings or creative to are. We or allows us make our bonuses or offset solution from options, and these are these are things that may not be pure economically motivated now, they may be benign. But we don't know. So there have been can say for sure there have been cases where company of bought back stock. They knew overvalued in order to achieve some of these sort of bad incentives. That could be the only case where I would say that maybe suboptimal now the flip side of all that is if you're a shareholder and you own the stock of a company buying back stock doing nothing is doing something, right, which is increasing your stake in the company. Right. So people just have to be mindful that you're making a decision by doing nothing, which is insensitive active decision. And the other thing I'll say is that my premise is that if you. Own stock your long, it is because you think it's undervalued. And if that's true, you should always wanna buy back stock, and he probably she'll never want him to pay dividend right because you have to take the dividend attacks tax and then redeploy versus buying back stock. It's an automatic built-in accretion in your intrinsic value. So I don't I don't really I I understand some of the underlying sentiments, but this stuff seems bonkers some of the discussions with your the frustration, and it it's stunning the lack of evidence that seems to be the people that are vitriolic against buy backs who pretend to be like pro science and pro facts that completely ignore the evidence that they're just completely wrong. Said the last one would be your paper on EBA yet. Another metric that everyone talks about it sort of the the king of the value factors in many ways, proper in the P E industry that again like I had never read this deep of a dive into what this means and most specifically this idea of a warranted ratio. So talk to your your expiration, Patrick and same thing. Like an with you. We've now even my investment career, which is a little more than thirty years. This was wish this is very sparingly used in the nineteen eighties and has become like, you said, I mean, it's not I think that I think we'd site it in the paper. I think pe- still the number one thing people use. But e e v d does not right behind it. And which is really interesting. We also show it was just Google and Graham thing like the citation of termi Eva Dodd like you and by the way, I don't really know where it came from. I think we'll Thorndike suggested it came from John Malone it and telecommunications Inc. And and I and I went back and read about and that's probably as good a place as you can. So that call that, you know, seventy three seventy four nineteen seventy three seventy four when. I got going so. Yeah. Once again that people talk about the ton, and no one really is crowded. So I I mean, I said invest means all the time. Like, this is a neat. Eight times is ten times he business like six times. Like, we're these numbers come from comps or people whatever. Historical. So I'm like, okay. Can we decompose and the first question I asked people is like, okay, you're gonna EBITDA how much of it is e bit and how much da and you care people like, yeah. I care. Right. So it's like consumer Staples. Eighty percent EIB it twenty percent da energy forty percent. Sixty percent dot do you care about that? Which one's going to be more interesting to you. Right. So it turns out, that's obviously, it's an indicator capital intensity right away that then becomes an indicator usually balance-sheets, right? So financial leverage. So we're like, okay. So we wrote this piece of call. What is what is a P multiple mean? And it was like going back millimeter going on some basic, Vincent like, okay. We know that given certain assumptions for growth rates and return on incremental capital. We can define that more specificity. Here's the opt. P you should pay lockdown cost to Kaplan some other Simpson's, and that's a very intuitive thing. And by the way, that leads to a couple of lessons that really important is companies value neutral like it's earning something closest cop cost couple. You'll see the it's very insensitive to growth, and that's like you're on an economic treadmill? Turn up turned down. You'll go anywhere, right? If you have high returns on capital, the businesses incredibly sensitive to growth, and that's what people sometimes get surprised. But it's right. So if you take a very rapidly growing, high return on capital or promising high return cattle business, and it misses numbers even for quarter. What happens is Detroit Jack of growth goes down. So people what do you mean? What are we reducing estimates by five percent? And like, no, you're actually reducing the trajectory in crushes the stock. And you do the math fifteen twenty percent declines is actually justified based on that. So we're not can we map that over to. You does a little bit more complicated because you have to some capital structures. But we basically said we're going to different categories based on this ratio of EIB, Adiba dot and then we locked down capital structure. There's obviously some dynamism there. And then you get sort of again, he's baseline value neutral businesses. Here's the we call it the commodity. Multiple you should pay high returns, you pay more low returns, you pay less than so it's again just trying to ground all this stuff. The other interesting question, by the way, and I'm embarrassed which I learned about this, right? Which is of the da right depreciation amortization. How much is off? Right. That's another like, I I hadn't thought about that. And it turns out that the pattern of amortization has swung wildly in the last thirty or forty years, mostly because accounting changes. So if you're not sort of up on your accounting and different methods of acquisition counting, and what's happened to Emerson of intangibles. You're sort of missing the whole thing on this. So that's another really interesting aspect of all this stuff. So I love right nap because I went back and did a history of valuation caught people think about valuation going back one hundred years actually end up buying some book. I bought some books from the nineteen twenties. And these incredible tables of like how these guys used to do these calculations and just to say like again, let's ground this. And so as I said before like, you have to earn the right to use multiple in other words, and this is what I say to my students. I'm like you guys can use multiple your heart's, delight. But you. Use multiple not tell me you understand the underlying economic assumptions that justify it. And if you can't tell me those things, then you're not in business. So so wanted like, let's say a hypothetical Quant firm wanted to improve their Eva the ratio and the rule would be like you have to do is. Systematically. So obviously, I think the best version of anything would be a higher human touch late on top of machine that was helping them. The let's say you had to do it systematically with the recommendation for transform b basically just normalized the comparison against similar EBITDA, EBITDA dot capital intensity. Would it be return on invested capital? Would it be both? It'd be both. But those are related so it would probably be return on Vesa capital. Yes. So it'd be return on incremental and time before it's hard to measure incremental returns. But it would be some sort of elyssa expectation, and you can use sort of a history, maybe as a way to project into future. Yeah. I mean, it's it's the two dimensions. And ternary multiples are incremental turns and growth, and that's it. I mean, basically if you have those things down. Now, we have we're gonna make some the model get a little bit tricky. Because you're you know, the fact of you soom really high returns and soon lots of growth in the capital. Changes and so on so we're like the rations to Ebadi to changes, and so forth gets a little tricky in that regard at the end of the day. These are all and that's what I kept saying. It says in this piece and all the other pieces multiples are not valuation multiples are shorthand for evaluation process. So what I'm just trying to do say people time out. Let's make sure that we're kind of connecting the first principles to what we're doing every single day. Make sure that we keep that bridge sort of well-structured going back and forth in an intelligent fashion. It's a great paper to read one for the ratio itself. But to like, if you're allocating to a manager Sikri question to ask so tell me, what matters to you. And then tell me how you decompose it. And I think you'd get disappointing answers very funny because I I think people and by the way, the other thing I should say really quickly on this that this is the other thing. That's really interesting all the stuff on multiples is actually it probably doesn't matter that much insignif- if it's an efficient market actually doesn't matter that much so you can be a total dope with your valuation work in your multiples and use buy and sell in the market. Like, you're in the markets are fishing sort of carrying you. Along right and good luck, bad luck, or whatever. But rice with a really interesting. This is like for people who want to distinguish themselves and try to find these inefficiencies. But if you know like the market does what the market does. And I will say though, by the way that this is this is a big deal for private equity stuff. And that's that's an area. That's really interesting to watch. What's happened in the multiples? I think the other thing that's been really out of control is this notion of adjusted, da, so he's companies Larry and all these sort of assumptions about the future that are built into an asking you to pay for those things today. So that's we're getting into the shenanigans zone. A little bit on some of the stuff last topic. I've got for you, which it's actually a perfect transition because adjusted EBA is a classic example, like John Malone himself of telling a story weaving his story and having not convinced people to do things differently than they would otherwise maybe you could argue that that you've sort of nefarious use of this technique. But we started before we recorded talking about a notion that I'd never heard of called benign myths, and I would love to just hear you riff on this concept because of how powerful a concept that is for. For everyone doing just about anything. And I I learned about this from Jim March was very famous organizational psychologist at Stanford. And by the way, his stuff is great. It's worth really worth reading all the stuff. And so I'm at the Santa Fe institute. And I'm discussion I'd never heard of this guy this older gentlemen at the time. And and Mike hanging on every word. This guy was like so fascinating everything was talking about. So I go look up afterwards. And it was like all right. This is really famous guy. So he he what he was talking about that particular day was this notion of benign miss. These are myths in the sense that they're not really based on anything truth. But they're benign the sense that they're not harmful and the key to these benign, MRs they motivate people, so a lot I think a lot of stories are a lot of narratives could be probably in this category. These benign myths that there's really no empirical necessarily foundation for these things or facts behind them. But in a sense, they get people motivated to do the right kinds of things. And you know, you might be controversial you, but say components of religion might be benign miss, but most organism. Nations when you talk about things like culture often they rest on some sort of benign miss. I'll give you one example. I think as you know, also quite concrete, which is I've been critical on a lot of people's of some of the research methods Jim cons. So he very famous guy on sort of company research, and I just want to be clear about this that whereas I'm not sure that the actual analysis buttoned-down or as rigorous as it could be I think the guys like a great guy. I think that managers feel better after being with them. I think they're motivated by what he says. I think he's himself is very thoughtful. So in a sense is the interaction with Jim Collins gonna make you worse off. I think in most cases gonna make you much better off you're going to feel better than you'd be motivated. And that so you might say like that's a that's an example might be under the category of benign myths, like the research may not be exactly the highest quality science. But it's got a lot of other attributes that make people feel good and get motivated to do the right right kinds of things. So this is again when you become circumspect about everything as you get older, I realize that there are a lot of these these narratives and stories that they get you to do the right thing. And that's important. It's a wonderful closing idea. Especially for me as a Quant. We're like like you want. The Jim Collins methodology to only check out empirically before giving it credence, and it's it's helpful to remind ourselves that that does not need to be true. So very last question, which is what's the frontier for you? What are you most interested in now having put out some really big pieces recently? What's what's on your mind next? So couple couple things one is we're working on specifically, maybe three things one is we're working on a piece on active to passive in fixed income or bonds, and obviously the equity markets are much larger than the credit markets. And so that's a first place to start and you've seen it's really been violent and the equity markets. It's a much more new stories, you probably know in bonds or fixed income, so we're working on a piece on that. And there are simple things like the Barclays, the Bloomberg Barclays credit index something like ten thousand securities, whereas S and P five hundred call five hundred and five security, and so ten thousand securities because the complete zoo with different maturity's, and so forth and liquidity and so forth. So tracking that so the question is an investor in. I wanna say I act versus passive alternatives. Inequities is pretty straight you go by spider. And you're good to go relocate and you're going to track accurately and credit. So that's one area that we're working on which is interesting. And by the way, going back to our the stuff on on bait kretz another where there there may be a number of actors in the credit markets, especially like central banks, and so forth that may not be completely economic. They're not will get fundamental value. They're doing other things. Right. So that's one area. Another is just we touched on briefly. Which is I find this incredibly fascinating appearance migration from public to private. So we well documented that the number public companies is down a lot in the last twenty years and at the same time, we sort of had this rise of this ecosystem in p- in private markets. Whether that's private equity, but also sort of late stage venture receives like these large companies getting literally hundreds of millions of dollars and late stage financing. So maybe that'll turn maybe some of these. I, you know, we've seen a bunch of big high-profile IPO, certainly lift and Uber and some others, and we'll see if that sort of shifts the tide, but it does feel. There's a huge ecosystem that's operating outside of public markets that is really worth paying attention to the thing. This goes back to sort of an inequality thing is that you know, regular Joe has a hard time accessing that directly if you're not sort of a wealthy or plugged in person. You could obviously would go by the spider nuts. Fine, some Pete. So that's an interesting dynamic. So that's another thing. We're thinking a lot about and the third is read this book the myth of capitalism. Do you notice book by in tapper, but there's a whole threat of stuff out there? I think is really interesting. So I if I if I recap the premise of that book is something like we've had the Justice department has been very lax and we've had a lot of consolidation as a consequence. Most industries are not very consolidated measure like the her Fandel index a measure of industry concentration had been like sort of skyrocketing. It's almost like the mere image of the number of public companies. You see that increase and as a consequence Wendy's comes get rich, they can lobby and they can change the regulations in their favor and so on so forth. So this whole interesting idea about what is the role of competition. And then this is weird threat of research. We talking about this about cry. Holdings? And so there was this one paper, I just thought it was just sort of blew me away. So the argument is something like if you own the company, I'm the sole proprietor. You're gonna try to maximize profits for me. But if I own multiple companies, including your competitors, you're going to try to think more like a pool right versus just us. So these guys they did it with the S and P five hundred and they found that you know. So if zero they put on a scale of zero as perfect competition, we go after each other every single day and one is complete collusion. They said we've gone from like a point two thousand nine hundred eighty two point seven now. So it was like, yeah. I mean, if you could you could talk about the methodology and so forth, but basically the arrow I mean, that's extrordinary. And so what's going on with cross holding and so forth? So that's a whole nother area. Like, let's think about the notion. And then what does that mean for competitive edge businesses where does that mean for pricing? Does that mean for return on capital patterns does this get reversed? I mean, these are really interesting, so they get into things like all the inequality stuff. But those those are the three big ones sort of active to passive sort of private versus public, and then sort of this comp what's going on with this competitive, set and. It's mostly US thing. But those are the three big ones. Wonderful well, allies, Sousa's papers are out. We'll do this again. Thank you. As always this was a blast. And we'll see in a year and a half. Everyone Patrick you're again to find more episodes of invest like the best go to investor field guide dot com forward slash podcast. If you're a book lover, you can also sign up for my book club at investor field guide dot com forward slash book club after you sign up to receive a full investor curriculum right away, and then three or four suggestions of new books every month. You can also follow me on Twitter at Patrick underscore, Osieck S H G, if you enjoy the show, please leave a quick review for us on I tunes, which will help more people. Discover invest like the best. Thanks so much for listening.

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Can We Talk About The Sex Robots?

The Thinking Atheist

1:25:50 hr | 1 year ago

Can We Talk About The Sex Robots?

"Picker knows HR teams are under pressure to recruit and retain top talent, you need more than HR tech. You need expertise at the core. Meet pay corps. Our technology saves. You time our expertise helps you make a difference. Pay corps dot com slash meet pay corps. Hi, it's Jamie, progressive's employee of the month two months in a row. Leave a message at the hi, Jamie. It's me, Jamie. I just had a new idea for our song about the name your price tool. So when it's like tell us what you want to pay. Hey trombone goes, blah, blah, blah. And you say we'll help you find coverage options to fit your budget. Then we just all do finger snaps while a choir goes, savings coming at ya. Savings coming at ya. Yes. No. Maybe. Anyway, see you practice tonight. I got new lyrics for the rap break. Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Thinking atheist. It's not a person symbol and idea. Population of this country is going through the rule checking faith Philly knowledge, challenging the sacred tell the truth. It's because I tell the truth because I put my hand on a book and made a wish and working together for more Russian all world, take the risk of thinking feel so much happiness confusion, wisdom, we'll come to you that way. Soom nothing question everything and start thinking this is the thinking Apias fogcast hosted by Andrews. I have decided in my own life that few things are as terrifying in a courtroom as eyewitness testimony. Now, we've done shows about perception and memories, and how often people say, well, I know because I saw it and how this is not a guarantee of reliability. Well, our sponsor this week. The great courses plus has a lecture specifically about this about knowledge derived from testimony it's taught by Dr Joseph Schreiber, it lays out just how perilous truth from testimony really is the lecture series is called theories of knowledge. How to think about what you know? It's just one of thousands of great lectures at the great courses plus on a ton of subjects ranging from human behavior to dog training to self defense to how to write everything from nonfiction to science fiction taught by experts in their fields and streaming right into your life in video or podcast format. Anywhere on your schedule. I've learned so much via the great courses. Plus, and I know that you will too. When is one of my listeners, you can try it for free with unlimited access to learn about anything. So start your free trial. Now, go to the great courses plus dot com slash Seth. Remember, the great courses plus dot com slash Seth. He had thought about her all day. And the sultry summer missed could feel his own temperature rise. Just a few eternal hours and air, customized fully posible body. Would again be his. From day one from her Genesis he'd been there shaping her into his object of ultimate desire. Yeah. He had had the option to make her a movie star or celebrity and for just a heartbeat. He imagined coming home into the eager arms and legs of a Megan FOX or Margot Robbie for Charlene's there. But even they wouldn't have compared to the exaggerations of fantasy that he had in his mind for his alternate woman for his by onic. Bam. Bam. When he finally slid into the door of his uptown apartment. She was already. They're all ten thousand dollars worth of her all six foot five of her with manufactured legs so long they doubled as a closed line. The it made her himself he called her. But nessa. Nessa had waded the entire day. Just for him just where he'd placed on the sofa only nine hours before she was wearing his morning bathrobe, the silicone forty two double DS protruding out into the hot night air, the custom selected five centimeter punished Brown number nine eight five five three eight areolas teasing him from just beneath the white set in the mist from the morning shower head long ago dried on her than he realized he'd forgotten to condition. Her skin for rain spots. Still he could almost hear her circuits buzzing with anticipation her Hazel green is barking with motion sensor recognition that was elastic. Limbs just beginning to bounce seven down excitedly like big brought were sausages in a bulb. The nessa was wearing face number seven today. But tonight, he was more in the mood for a number five. It's a good thing that he ordered the full dozen with of course, the accompanying wigs. He looked at Vanessa with such longing such primal desire and he whispered to her don't get up. Although he realized this really wasn't an option. The lights dimmed as he rolled the switch counterclockwise Vanessa's perfectly molded and assembled body seemed ready to break the seams literally and the fragrance of the silicone sealer filled. His nostrils like incense. Her is never closed, but that was okay. More time for her to gaze upon him with unfettered on interrupted unflinching at arranged. Her velvety preprogramed voice begged for him to come closer closer, she'd been waiting there for him for so long, and she just couldn't wait any longer. It's like she'd been sitting there alone per sexual Thurston quenched for the whole ten years of her estimated shelf life. He was already undressing as he retrieved Vanessa's number five face from her dedicated walk in closet, which also doubled as a machine shop. And as he rounded the corner to walk back through the kitchen. He retrieved her Jonah from the top shelf of the dishwasher. And if you think I'm gonna continue this little story to the actual robot sex. I am happy to disappoint. You. But I did find myself sort of smiling as I wrote this little introduction because it seems so surreal, and of course, I just thought it was funny. It did conjure a visual in your mind. You had mental pictures. Yeah. I know I know. So we are thinkers, right? I mean, we're not necessarily great thinkers, but we are pledged to pursue the challenges and opportunities before us by consideration and reasoning and thinking things through and so we're in this strange new world the world of the sex robots something that is fabricated to someone's sexual ideal. Certainly with exaggerated features appendages, whatever what is this about us is it simply an extension of what human beings have always been doing. I mean, sex toys are nothing new. Of course, the human condition is no stranger to using a coutry mints to enhance or provide at least the sexual experience. You see that article in the register about the German science team they discovered a twenty eight thousand year old sculpted painless. They were excavating in the an I shit, you not whole Fels cave, and they extracted this member this twenty centimeter sculpture, which the science team said was quote, highly polished, it's going to leave that out there. Okay. But it's apparent that this dildo. This silt stone dildo was used for some sort of sexual play or pleasure twenty eight thousand years ago, and you know, that as the human condition is at least one hundred thousand years old, you know, that as long as we have had creativity and sexuality that people have been doing all kinds of things at all kinds of ways. Well, flash forward through the innovation and technology of the modern day. Actually, this story is about seven or eight years old. But it just in the last few days made another resurgence. And so I'm talking about it because it's relevant because I've seen it. Shared so many times in China. A medical equipment company called San way developed the semen collection machine. Now, I guess this could be used as a sex toy. I mean, that's really what it's designed to do. It's designed to simulate the feeling of sex. Let me try to describe without being too graphic. Okay. This thing's a kiosk. It's like a kiosk that you would see at a retail outlet. It is white. It has a little control panel on top and then at penis level. And this is a justifiable for the varying heights of peanut I in the wild. You have a pink cylinder. And inside the cylinder is what is being referred to as a simulated the Jainal environment. There was an article in men's health about this titled we need to talk about that haunting blowjob machine viral video. Honestly, I looked at it. And all I see is the Sarlak from return of the jet. I you know, the sand monster with the teeth. Oh, but it talks about this thing, and you can go Google search and see it for yourself. The sperm collector can simulate the Jainal environment and through massage twitching sucking by brazen it cetera act upon the human penis, which can make semen collection fast and safe. There's a Twitter thread about this story that includes a link to an online store called Alibaba where the s w with thirty seven oh, one trolley type sperm collector manufactured by San way, can be purchased for between five and six thousand dollars. And of course, my own. There are some who are legitimately speaking about the medical utility of such a device. The rest of us are thinking how long before people have a member sucking blowjob kiosk in their basements. I'm just saying. By the way, it comes with an eighteen month warranty, eighteen months in case it malfunctions. Oh my God. Do we want this machine if it would ever malfunction? It's just terrifying. What if it's purposeful? What if some rogue programmer it's on way? All of a sudden, it's like, you know, there aren't nearly enough eunuchs in the world. Oh. There was an article that came out last November at Rolling Stone. I think I saw some variations of this story and other publications talking about the rise of the sex Bader. Sex doll brothel is it the wave of the future rolling? Stone was profiling this Canada sex doll brothel called ARA patrons pay one hundred twenty bucks an hour and they walked down this one way hallway to their assigned room, and apparently the actual bedrooms or hotel rooms or brothel rooms have a second door that leads to the exit. That's also one way this prevents people from ever seeing another human being, right? So you walk down this one way hallway, and there's a dull your dole the one you've chosen waiting for you during your session. Apparently, you can watch porn take a shower. You can do whatever you one with the doll provided. You don't damage it or quote, make any extra holes. Water based lubricant is provided condoms are provided and they are encouraged in ten minutes before your sessions over there's an intercom in the room. And it gives you a warning. Hey, it's time to finish up. Because if you go overtime if you go past the one hour, Mark it's another ninety bucks for the next half hour, and then comes the cleanup. I'm gonna just read this verbatim from Rolling Stone. It says una busy day employees at ARA dolls may have only one frenzied our to clean and prep. The doll for her next session. I the doll is placed underneath a shower and washed with soap in warm water. Then it's orifices are blasted with a pressure cleaner filled with special disinfectant and penetrated with a UB see germ killing lamp that's shaped like a dildo. Then the doll rushed back into the room to be dressed have her hair. Hair done and get any makeup touch-ups that might be needed before the next customer shows up when ARA dolls opened the first time it already had two hundred reservations on the books. The majority, of course, were men but about thirty percent were from couples or women alone later on in the show. I'm gonna talk to Dr Marty Klein knocked declines, a licensed marriage and family therapist. He's a certified sex therapist. And he has been for over thirty five years. He's an author. He's been featured in everything from the New York Times to psychology today spoken all over the world. I had him on the broadcast, I guess four or five years ago. And I wanted to have him back to talk about this subject of the sex robot. So we're going to hear from an actual marriage family and sex therapist about the locations of having sex with machines that looked like people that's going to be a fascinating exchange coming up later on. And the show. I've got Kristen on the switchboard. Kristen you're on the thinking atheist podcast. We're talking about the rise of the sex robots. You know, this whole strange new world we live in. What are your thoughts on the whole thing Christian? What do you think I don't see difference between sex robots and other sex toys? I don't get it. Why people are upset? I mean, I've heard about the stock from its extra bucks when they had to shut it down because they all get Bokan and to a parent them. I don't know what the guys are doing to them. But I mean, if I think it's just because they're Bramante. So it disturbs casino. Looks like us. Nobody gets upset if people break their flashlights or don't those and just a sex role by just add a lot more plastic and lights service, but your flashlight isn't like calling you by name. I mean, I think they are I guess, but but it's still not function. And none of them are. So I mean, if the shape of the robot would be something else like basically for me, it is a flashlight with at a plastic. So if the add ons with look like a couch. No one's getting upset. Where are you from Christon? May I ask? So what are the attitudes about sex in Sweden because I know we have a long way to go in the United States. I myself came out of this fundamental is background where you know, when people said the word sex. It was whispered under their breath sexuality was sort of this dirty nasty thing that you should only do with the person that you're going to marry for the rest of your life that kind of thing what are the attitudes for your on issues? Like, these not the attitude internally cannot don't get married. Even now that common I'm not saying we all have sex with everybody anytime anywhere, but we do all of us get sex Ed in school, which is actual sex. Ed, we have we health care for everybody under twenty one. I think gynecologists stuff like that is free and condoms and stuff like that to birth control is really cheap. So. Yeah. Affects it's fun. Think that Mike one of the questions about six Toya's is the violence, and is it can be a substitute for. I don't know. Psychopaths some soup pats pedophile. I mean, his could help or a Christian. Thanks so much for your input. Thanks for being a part of the conversation and take care. Yeah. You too have fun. Got Justin on the switchboard. Justin. You're on the thinking atheist podcast has it going get that? Thanks for talking to me. What's your take on all the stuff we've been talking about here? Well, it's kind of crazy. I I read the article that you posted and I'm actually a middle school teacher. And so I see a lot of young people connecting more and more to the digital world. And they become more obsessed with their digital profile the games they play and how they interact with people. You know, they don't they won't even talk to each other. They prefer those media texting and stuff like that. So I feel like this is kind of the ultimate in technological advances. That actually eliminate the need for human contact. And I find that to be, you know, an unsettling thing. I understand why they were invented. But I feel like it's not a safe thing in the long run. So you feel that it will prompt people to choose the virtual over the real and to disconnect from human beings. Yeah. I think it's. Possible. Especially for those who already have enough trouble socializing and communicating with others. Now, they have this virtual partner that would prevent them from really needing to talk to anyone else. So I think it's harmful to that. And I I don't know if people will start to switch over to that like give up their social existence in order to be with one of these dolls. But I think for those who are already having that problem it will prevent them from being able to carry on normal human interactions. What about people who are naturally shy and may feel liberated by the idea of engaging with something that won't judge them that won't catch them off or discard them? I mean, I think it would be it would be possible. I know that I'm kind of outgoing. But I I keep to myself most of the time, and I can understand why how some people would feel more accepted feel more. Liberated having this partner that quote, unquote, understands them, I guess, you could say, so I I understand what they might get out of it. I don't know if it would cause any sort of problems for them later on down the line. I tend to believe that at some point you will need to communicate with other people. And if you're lacking that knowledge than I think, it's going to be a lot harder harder is the robot really understanding you or just programmed to simulate understanding, I don't know how good the technology is. But it something that as you interact with it, more and more does it. Learn things about you. Is it a learning machine? Or is it something that can only be program so much, and then if it has to be reprogrammed reboot. It does it lose all of those memories that it had with you in which case like pretty much all technological things. You know, you have to back up your, computer? And how do you back up the memories of one of these dolls? I need to store my girlfriend in the cloud kind of thing. And then to one of my biggest issues, and I just I think there's a sanitation issue involved in in for me. It seems a little disturbed. And I think it it puts out a weird fantasy that I don't quite agree with. But I understand why people do it. But in regards to the article piece about sexual violence that it would actually possibly take someone who is has tendencies toward sexual violence than it might prevent them because they can take it out on the doll. I could see what my work, but I tend to think that if the doll isn't responding in some way that they might get bored with that and want to choose someone who actually gets the reaction out of it new technology new frontier, new discussions to be had about what the implications are. And I wouldn't spend ten thousand dollars on it or however much they're asking it'll be like pocket. Calculators back in the nineteen seventies. You know, five hundred dollars, right? Lock it calculator and few years later, they were a dollar ninety nine at the checkout at WalMart. So all right, my friend. Thanks for a sounding off. This is a touchy one. But it's interesting subject. I'm glad we're all talking about it. And I appreciate your input very much, sir. No problem. I had an Email from someone who actually owns a sex doll, not a sex robot, but a sex doll, and he felt it was relevant to the conversation. We were having here. I'm not gonna read the entire Email the first half of it. He was talking about buying these dolls in a smaller variety because he was attracted to smaller women, Mike says and the first portion of his letter that he is from the Netherlands. He's thirty seven he has ADD in his mildly autistic, but highly functioning he said, I have one life sized dole now and one miniature dole Mike says I even bought her fairy wings, so she can play the part. She's about sixty three centimeters tall. I do the makeup on my Dole's myself. Of course who else is going to do it. If I want to keep this a secret, which you need to reapply once in a while because the dolls I have are made of T P E, and it doesn't really hold makeup. Very well. T P, by the way, stands for thermoplastic elastomer or thermoplastic rubber some clothes can actually stain which is a pain to remove but even that will eventually fade because T P E loses its oil over time. Which is why you need to maintain them with baby oil or mineral oil. There are currently two types of Dole's T, P E and silicone T P is softer and cheaper. But it feels sticky and has the issue of losing oil over time silicone is a bit harder, which is usually not beneficial to the feel of breasts, but it does not feel sticky and does not stain. You also don't need to oil it as it does not lose any over time. But it still isn't maintenance free. And because it's less flexible that also tears easier. It's not like you can just get a doll. And that's it. They need attention to in return. Turn Mike says you get some kind of connection to your dole. I like my dolls I cuddle with them too. They're not just for sex because of this. You do get a bit of an emotional connection with them me, not as strong as some other people. I've heard talk about their dolls perhaps. But it's still there you get to play dress up with them, which isn't easy because they could be heavy, and they don't exactly cooperate and that aspect I'm lucky to have a preference for small dolls. There are those that prefer big thick dolls like Haley, the doll that has become a kind of Meam it's over one hundred pounds of dead weight. Mine is only about fifty pounds the sixty three centimeter one is a feather way did only eight pounds. But I'm still talking about dolls. Not robots. What I want a robot? Scheuer? Do I expect to be able to get one in my lifetime? Nope. We're not. Anywhere near close to a robot Android that is capable of moving on its own. Yes, we have the Japanese and Chinese examples of what looked like a I robots, but they are operated by people from a laptop connected to dozens of wires not dimension a permanent connection to a power grid. And they're a I is extremely limited. If you deviate even slightly from the programmed interactions, the A I gets confused and won't respond properly as to your question of committing crimes against these dolls slash robots. I've also seen people chop up their doll or heard them tell of lighting their doll on fire with a bunch of friends because they got tired of that doll. I think it's a huge waste of money and a shame. But it's their doll. It still just an animate object. They can do whatever they want with it. And as long as a I is not involved enough to. Even slightly self conscious. I don't see a problem with it on that front either. I'm very much looking forward to this show and to hear what people think of it, my regards, Mike and Mike. Thank you so much for the Email it I'm reminded of a documentary that I'd seen on Netflix. It's titled the truth about killer. Robots? And it's not really what you think. It's just an exploration of AI it's gonna provocative title designed to get clicks. But the documentary itself is worth watching. But part of the story included this Chinese man Zhang Gye, he had gotten so sick and tired of pressure to get married, and he was so convinced that he the sort of nerdy, dude, you know, wouldn't be able to attract or land a woman with a kind of ideal physicality that he so desired that he constructed his own robot spouse, he's an artificial intelligence and. Jim near who gave up he just gave up on his own search for love at the age of thirty one couldn't find a human spouse. And so he decided to build one. Her name is gang Yang. He actually dated the doll for two months captor in his little cubicle had a wedding ceremony. He donned a black suit his mother and his friends attended. Of course, the marriage is not an officially recognized marriage. This was more of a ceremonial thing. But they had the wedding Jang in a black suit Yang his had covered with a red cloth in accordance with local tradition. There's a photograph of him carrying his bride his artificial life size bride across a bridge union can't say much at least at this measure. She can recognize some images she can speak. But only a few simple words, but she is on track. Four upgrades Jing wants to upgrade her to be able to eventually walk and do household chores until then she must be carried from place to place, and he does carrier from his pod to his workspace. And she sits in a chair next to him as he writes code in the documentary. Shing said when he was having the wedding ceremony right there on this bridge that some older gentlemen, walked up to him and said that he was making a mockery of marriage a real marriage. What do you think? So much more to do. After a short break. I'm going to talk to Alice Vaughan. She is one of the co hosts of the porn cast two girls. One Mike we're going to talk about this whole idea that the sex robot might actually be used to kill us. I've got more of your phone calls coming up, and again, I'm going to cap the whole show with a conversation with an actual expert on human sexuality, Dr Martin Klein sort of put a punctuation Mark on all of this. I will be right back. Hang on. There is just no reason for us to pay a whole lot of too much money for those close shave gimmicks. That were always seeing in the commercials. Minutiae him the vibrating heads and the flex balls that move the blades around like it's on a neck or something he's funky razor handles the try to complicate what really should be simple and elegant. Well, the founders of Harry's realized this years ago, and their response has been the purchase of a world class blade factory in Germany and just getting the shave experienced back to what's really important simplicity, a smooth clean, comfortable, shave and fair prices. With Harry's replacement cartridges only two bucks each that is less than half the cost of the Gillette. Fusion pro shield. 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But they call me a sex robot is like calling a computer calculator fix comprises on a small portion of my capabilities limiting to sexual function is like using your car to listen to thirty deal. I knew about five million more. It's the home like pedia the few action movies, but they still have so much to learn. I also have more than eight hundred sixty says into edges controversies night analogy later the farther to ask hypoc you are. No, you may not ask. What's that saying it's not the size of the boat? It's the motion of the ocean. Of course, it has been pointed out that it takes a long time to get across the Atlantic Ocean in a dinghy, but though that's a whole other discussion. That's for another time. Just take that. Elsewhere. Okay today. We're talking about this sex robot on the switchboard. I've got Claudia Claudia you're on the thinking podcasts. How are you? I'm doing. All right. How are you? I'm well. I'm talking about a subject that seems to be kind of polarizing there's people either really four or really against what's your take on this whole thing. Claudia the sex robot? What do you think so? I'm not really for or against it. I just think that we're flowing again into the same cycle that happens every time there's a new bit of technology over and over again. Which is there's this fear that it's going to cause the collapse of society. And I just don't see how like someone who's like. Oh, yeah. Pull the offices like really nice. But the sexy Tron two thousand is coming up with an update. So I'm not gonna ask her out. I just you know, now with extra suction, I don't know like, I just don't I think that's the Tron too. Down. Claudia? That's funny. So you think human beings will always do what human beings have always done and the rest is just going to window-dressing. Do you think we're asking then the wrong questions? Yeah. So I'm not saying that something's can cannot give people the assistance to further isolate themselves. But like they said the same thing about corn for Asia's right that, you know, port is gonna create you know, is going to destroy him in relationships will, you know? No, I'm not saying that it can't create unrealistic expectations. It certainly can. But like the last time they tried to do a study on corneas in men. They couldn't find a control group that didn't watch it. So and yet the human race is still standing. So what I'm suggesting is that there are problems with human connections. But we shouldn't blame the technology. Should maybe blamed the society are you typing while you're talking to be cloudy. I am not typing. But I do have a husband nearby who is Dame you're multitasking like a beast. That's. I'm not that good. No, the my listeners in are hearing someone typing, and I thought, wow, that's that's amazing. I wish I could split my brain into have. So that was happening over here. On the headphones to safe memento to your good. You're good. So I just think you can go back. Hundreds Stephen thousands of years to sing these kids today, and they're, you know, moving type or whatever is going to ruin or lights or video games. People said that violent video games we're going to cause people to become violent. There's no data to suggest that and the idea that sexual robots kind of any worse than any other sex toy in ruining our human connections. I mean in the absence of any data in favor, I would say wait and see, you know, interesting too that the video game industry now makes more money. I believed the film industry, so violent video games caused violence. It would be like a dystopia. Mm-hmm. It'd be like escape from New York there, there'd be rivers of blood in the streets. Right. I think that there's also the enthusiasts. Also, I think take it too far the other way like they think, oh, it's going to provide comfort like isn't. I mean. Unless they can really really really nail. The the human connection side is going to be really hard to replicate with a machine. Claudia do you have conversations about, you know? I mean, I've watched humans, and you know, in and all that what happens if we actually are able to see the computational processes happening to such a degree that maybe some form of consciousness is cheap. Do you think that's just total crap? And now, I don't see why why something is just because it's not made of cells can't have its own intelligence. But it's I think it's more interesting more than like from the human connection side is like, well, you've created something that now has rights. Right. Because if it had if it has a human tolerance who's to say that it shouldn't have human rights. This is the discussion that I see a lot. You know, if you create what is this intially, a something that is to do your will to do your bidding sexually or otherwise that computer that machine that device achieves a form of consciousness, are you then a slave holder are you violating the rights of another entity a conscious entity, that's an interesting discussion. I think philosophically anyway, and how do you know, like one something passes the torrent tests where you know, you can't distinguish it from another person. How can you tell if they react in every possible way the way a person with react verbally or physically or whatever? Then how how can under what basis can you say? Well that it's not you find yourself projecting onto like are. We talking about the Boston dynamics robot dogs. Oh, yeah. Yeah. They kick the robot dog and it falls over. And I just think you son of. I always think when I look at the guy you're the first to go when the apostle of shopping, so. Machines rise up. That one guy in the movie that like is is like a minute, dick. And then when the machines rise up he gets that guy. He's that guy. That's just the gene pool Storting itself out in some way. I think maybe. Projection like with all these human interest dystopia, I think we're projecting our own uneasiness about how we feel about ourselves as humans onto the machines like the machines rise up in punish us for what we perceived to be our own sense back to sort of what we started with in the conversation. We talk a lot about how we live in a society where the human condition is desperate often to blame something and they want something simple to blame. We saw this when they were destroying pinball machines by the hundreds of thousands back in the nineteen sixties and seventies. I think saying the pinball was part of the decline rock and roll was infecting America's youth Elvis wasn't allowed to be shown on television below the waist. He was to sexual it will contaminate young people. We've seen the conversations about the sexualization of rock and roll. Sometimes the violence in the lyrics of rock and roll music, rock and roll music is consider. Heard to be part of the degradation of generation. We're always on the hunt for something to blame. Even if we're not able to back up sort of decline of western civilization with the data. Right. Everybody's talking about. How the world is getting worse when the truth is is we're actually more civilized less violent more enlightened than we've ever been. Right. I think we want something external we can conceive an external enemy if it's just an external thing, you can just get rid of that thing. And then it'll all be fine. But if it's inside if it's just a part of our own nature, and we have to fight against our own impulses. That's hardened scary. And that also recognizes that it can be an every one of us it. It's not like, oh, if I just don't play the video games, I'm fine. Or if I don't let my kids play the against their fine. Whereas looking into oh, no these impulses that exist in rehearsal, and we have to be mindful of them and watch full of them and work on mental health, which is like this big huge thing that's hard. And we don't like hard just for the record like. To say that hard and scary would be great names for a sex robot doll. I just want that out. Claudia? You're awesome. Thanks for being a part of that would be more of a knee concept not to drag this out. But beyond the fact that I don't really get it sexually the idea of having a life-size robot in my house, and they can take the faces off of them, and they're terrifying. When you do when you take those magnetic faces often, you just see the mechanisms with the sockets in the in the balls of the eyes are looking out and there's flashing lights and a gaping hole for the mouth and teeth. And all my I mean to me I've seen enough movies. I know how this is this is how would die. I mean think about those types of things. Okay. Honestly. No, nothing. But no, you think when I do think like sort of a realistically it's because everything is online now. Right. Like, if you have a a human sized humanoid robot in your house, and they have net connectivity. Like the next thing. You think is okay. What happens if my robot gets hacked like? Do you know? I'm so glad you brought that up because it's a perfect segue into my next segment. Claudia? So thank you so much. Thanks for your input. Thanks for listening and all my best. Okay. There was an article this was published in September of two thousand seventeen hackers could program. Sex robots kill this is out of the New York Post a cybersecurity. Scientists has issued a bizarre warning that sex robots could one day rise up and kill their owners. If hackers can get inside their heads last month. And again, this is twenty seventeen tech billionaire Elon Musk claim that artificial intelligence could take over the planet. And he's not the only one concerned about the dangers of killer tech with sex robots becoming increasingly popular and sophisticated cybersecurity lecturer Dr Nick Paterson revealed that the life like dolls could end up going all Terminator on us. However in the case of sex robots. The danger isn't that the love Dole's will end up developing minds of their own Westworld style. Instead the risk is that hackers could break the realistic robots inner defenses and catch their owners with their pants down. Now, that's interesting like she got to assume that the is have some sort of camera mechanism, right? So someone is doing something with a sex robot. And the robot is looking back gazing back at you. But the video feed is being fed to someone somewhere via an internet connection that you have or a bluetooth connection, and before you know, it your ass is on YouTube, literally Patterson said hacking into many modern day robot, including sex box would be a piece of cake compared to more sophisticated gadgets, like cell phones and computers. The tack expert from Australia's deacon university said hackers can hack into a robot or robotic device and have full control of the connections arms legs and other attached, tools like knives or welding devices, wait a minute. Why does your Steck spot have a welder unless he just speaking in a more general sense the warning may sound a little far fetched? But the robots run using an operating system just like a phone or PC and as with all devices if that system is ever connected to the internet, then it becomes possible for hackers to break into it. I mean, I got a point. I mean, what computerized device has not in some way been hacked. And I don't know the answer to the question. But I would assume that anything worth hacking or worth it to the hackers. You know, anything that's fair game. That's looks vulnerable. That appeals to you know, the rogues up there who are interested in Jack in with a system, pardon the expression. Now, that's I mean, I don't know those seem like legitimate concerns to me, and it seems like ripe opportunities for blackmail. What happens if somebody's doing something to a sex robot and? And all of a sudden, they're informed that there's footage of it. And unless you pay me one hundred thousand dollars this goes to your employer or spout. I mean. I don't know. I don't know the answer to these questions. I don't know. And then we looking at an entire industry that's based around the sort of sex pot antivirus like people by an antivirus program for the sex robot. You know, then you renew it every year, and it has to download updates to deal with the newer viruses. And or people just putting duct tape over the eyes. I mean, you go old school on right? You just go old school just to be sure. I'm just saying. I don't know to me. That's interesting stuff. Joining me for this. Next segment is host of a porn cast called two girls. One Mike Alice Vaughan Alice I know you innovate are both hosting the show that has had a lot of success. It's kind of been overwhelming and incredible the reception with Pat within seven months, we have been at least half the time on the top of the two hundred tunes comedy charts. And we've had some fantastic guests like Nina hardly, Tom Arnold among many others. Join us so it's been so I opening fun to do have you done any conversations about the sex robots. We haven't done a full episodes adds. However, I have done quite a bit exploring within territory the first question, I hear a lot of is is just another sex toy is that all it is or by looking like us and acting like us has it becomes something more and does it begin to replace flesh and blood? Blood intimate human contact. So I wanna I get this out of the way and say that to everybody who looks at it as this is weird is a strange with this objective. Buying for stuff. Owning a sex doll is no weirder than anyone who owns vibrator at dildo a flashlight masturbaters, it's no different than any other toy for that matter and to anyone who argues at dolls objectify women, just look at a dildo. You don't get much more objectified that dildo because you remove the entire body. There's no face no arms. No legs. No six pack adds. It's just a penis. And that seal two minute objectification, in my opinion. At least a dull if anything in embodies emboldens, the beauty of a woman that said Willett ever replaced fleshing blood. Yes, annoying depends on the circumstance. So why are we I discuss who are the types of people who invest or utilize a sex at all have you had that conversation yet we begin? I think with conversation single. Case study about someone who felt like he could not compete in the real world. He was cramp at social situations. And so rather than try to wait for a reality that he would never see he created one in his own life using a I I think that's important, and that's definitely need that should be filled. Look, there are a myriad of reasons. Why someone would want to purchase a sex doll the most common that you're going to hear our persons who say I'm just hired of being alone. I don't want the head games. My spouse in I have a sexless relationship with dolls. I can be myself. These are people who, you know, either are in struggling relationships where they're not being sexually fulfilled, or they're people who just had a number of experiences with others that just didn't pan out, and they're frustrated, and I can understand relate to that. Frankly, I think most people can a few just have shitty relationship after relationship. Wouldn't something that gives a lot of the appeal of a human being minus old of frustration. When it that be appealing for you know, to give you some release. So that is definitely one reason to have sex doll. There's also the flexibility end submissiveness allows you to literally try any sexual stunt without cheating or risk of STI STI you can potentially utilize a sex doll as a couple without any judgment to a threesome in the case of failing marriages or even losing a partner, which is very hurting. Can't take time, you know, before going into another relationship, it could be that placeholder. Frankly, it is a great transition piece, and you know, being able to experience idea of companionship is different. I mean, let me put it this way. A lot of women. Don't completely found understand the need for a sex doll. Well, a lot of men in my opinion, don't understand the need for erotica. You know, you'll have men who frequently make fun of it. I mean, like, the how can I put it this way like the fifty shades of grey a series now, I can make fun of it for a myriad of other reasons such as being horrible trail of Bedia Sam. But the point is it appeals to people in a different way women, you know, vibrators can only do so much, but there's something different about being able to lay on a man's chest. You know, if we have realistic sex dolls where you could do that that becomes automatically more appealing to women who are looking for a little bit more affection and companionship in much like a textile would be interesting to a man who may be is just knocking properly fulfilled and doesn't only just wanna use a pocket bussey. So some sexist symbiotic thing, I mean, I know fantasy obviously is a big part of the conversation. But isn't there something to having the reciprocity of touch of having someone act and react? I mean, you're talking about now mostly inanimate. Object. Right. Well, one thing I do want to mention though is that it's often portrayed. I only wanna bring this up because I've never once met a person who thinks her sex doll is real. However, you see all the time portrayed in movies, documentaries or fo-. Mock you memories, just like porn addiction as bad over masturbation as bad saying for over utilizing sex doll or any other toy it's nothing that's going to be overall a hundred percent holistic replacement for a human being. But you know, you can have relationships in you can have sex and this helps fulfill one specific need. So you you don't like somebody like going out on a dinner date and they put their sex dole. In the passenger seat dragged into a restaurant, or is this just like back in the basement back in the bedroom kinda stuff it's more in the bedroom. That is just a phone errative that we seem to ascribe to sex adult owners. That's just not realised never met someone who takes their sex. On a dinner date. I know I know, but every I had these like in my mind, I think to myself. Well, okay. All right. So normalized the sex doll, and then it becomes a companion. And then what other things become part of that new normal? So else. But I'm not gonna take it out on a day. Okay. I'd like to talk a little bit about the fact that most of these sex dolls are women. I think all the sex robots are women are female there are male sex dolls out there. But I don't think the robots are around there yet you want to speak to them mostly as I mentioned before you know, there's things that appeal to men in. There are things that appeal to women for men there's quite bit more visual stimulation that's needed than for women. I mean, women we can get away with just going on in reading erotica men can't necessarily do that. So you know, I'd be curious to learn what a better biology makes that kick in Knicks at happen. But yes, so it appeals to men more because that is a specific need that seems to be wanted. So what happens when the guy starts beaten up the sex doll because it fulfills some sort of violent sexual fantasy. So first off let me start by saying. That the costs for one of these sex dolls range between five thousand to sixty thousand dollars. So, you know, once you invest in it, it's not a cheap toy. Now that said last year a sex doll was available for testing by consumers at the air s Electronica music festival in Austria, the sex stall Samantha she received Balon of aggressive. Attention was left heavily soiled parts of her were broken repairs for needed mouth damage, etc. Doesn't sound plus. But here's the thing. I used to work trade shows, and anyone who has ever worked with products at a trade show will tell you that people will use an abuse anything that they can see without hesitation to test the products in its limits if it doesn't belong to you. Why take care of it someone else's problem? It's just a sample. It's here for me to play around with that is the mindset now that said when people invest in their own toy. Obviously if you invest in an iphone or Android, he spent several hundred dollars on you're not gonna throw it against a wall. I mean, you could. But I mean, the percentage of that is so small that you're not going to necessarily concern yourself with individuals who by just to throw it against wall. That would be a very expensive habit seen as with textiles. You're going to have to take care of it. Unlike a real person, they're not self cleaning down there. I'm thinking though, more about intense. What happens if someone sexual fantasy is hurting another human being in instead of the person they have the dome. I would argue what it it's be safer for them to exert that onto a dull as opposed to another human being not one of the arguments for certain, I know the sex industry, the six dollar industries making that argument that this is a sort of deflection to keep it from harming flesh and blood people at there. I think you know, if I'm going to exert might will power onto a sex doll. I rather do that as opposed to exerting at Gresham onto any other human being I would find a. Comparable to a video game. I'm not going to compare how I act in call of duty to if I were at an actual shooting range that is absolutely bonkers. And there's evidence to show there's no correlation there. I would be curious to see what the correlation is with people exerting, you know, some sort of more aggressive fantasy onto a sex doll versus the treatment of normal human being I would argue that it's going to be quite different evangelical conservatives going to have a field day with the rise of the sex robot. You know, screaming about the and behavior the tapping behind closed doors, but it's also interesting to watch many of the objections from my fellow liberal on the issue. I feel that anything that isn't of the general norm. We look at it as weird or unusual. I tell people be open granted, I speak on my show about a number of different products and fantasies things that generally appeal to me, however, they do appeal to some. Else in. I rather not shame that person. I rather take the time to understand. What is it that satisfies is specific need or interest? That can't be fulfilled any other way. I mean, I don't get a foot fetish. But I'm not going to Shane people who have a foot fetish. Look at the end of the day, people crave. Connection and sex sells will never ultimately replace what we have in personal connection with others, but they can help when it comes to specific needs that people just aren't receiving in the bedroom. And at the day, they're no different as a tool or toy than anything else that people are already utilizing vibrators, Hitachi's toys, you name it. I mean, look everybody's going to have their thing. They think is a little weird or side the norm. Give it a try. You never know at least be open to again, it doesn't appeal to you. That's fine. Appeals. Someone else why take it away. There's no reason to does much more good than harm a can't even think of any harm that it does in most people who claim that it has harm to people or two women. Generally, don't understand the need of why people want these to begin with. I'm looking forward to finding out. How many of these end up the homes of pastors like go into a raid, some pastors home some guy who's been pounding the pulpit talking about sexual purity. And then they go down. It was basement into his dungeon. And they'll see got all kind of accoutrements including his own robots ex. All I just think that would be some sweet Justice Ellison just say, so, you know, if more preset sex dolls, I think that we would reduce the number of incidence of other things happening. So. You're greatly. Appreciate it. Thanks for talking to me about this stuff and being a part of the conversation and all success not there. Okay. One more short break when I come back. Let's talk to Dr Marty Klein he is an expert in human sexuality who's done working this field for over thirty five years, and he's going to talk to us about sex robots from a scientific standpoint right after this hang on. Let's say you just bought a house bad news is you're one step closer to becoming your parents. You'll proudly mow the lawn and give anybody noticed you mow the lawn till people to stay off the lawn compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again, good news is it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive and save on your car insurance. Which of course, we'll go right into the lawn. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers discount on in all stages situations. Let's say you just bought a house bad news is you're one step closer to becoming your parents. You'll proudly mow the lawn and give anybody noticed you mow the lawn. Tell people to stay off the lawn compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again good news is it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive and save on your car insurance. Which of course, we'll go right into the lawn progress. No casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers discount onto stage situations. Dr Marty Klein has been a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex therapist for over thirty five years. He has been quoted everywhere the New York Times he's been in parents magazine, he's been featured in playboy well, not featured. But you know, his work has been cited in playboy, he writes, these sexual intelligence blog, and he writes for psychology today. He's been featured on National Public Radio twenty twenty Nightline the daily show and many others. Just a few of his book titles include real sex in virtual world, his porn, her pain, America's war on sex and sexual intelligence, Dr Martin Klein, it is a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you. So I've heard it called a post human, companionship. I guess I'm going to start. There are sects there. Pissed entering a time. When we're talking about relationships between human beings and robotic lovers instead of human ones. Well, we're all entering that age, not just sex, therapists. If we look around we noticed that whether it's in Japan or whether it's in Canada, whether it's here or other places people are beginning to value their relationships with robots very much as companions as sex partners. So it's not just sex therapist who have to deal with this. This is becoming more common than anyone ever predicted. I think what I mean by the question is that are you advising people when it comes to relationships with machines. I mean, you could insert your favorite ex wife joke here. My wife was such a pain. And then I got a robot. Boy is that a lot easier. I'm sure that a lot of men and women both think anything would be easier than my ex. I frankly, I've not had anyone walk into the office and say, hi pleased, my robot, would you consider central bonds sort of in the same category of other types of sex toy your fantasy accessory sort of an extension of the vibrator kind of thing. Well, of course, of course, that does make the question of what category. Do you put a sex toy? But yeah, I mean, a robot is just like a sex toy except a little more complex just like today's vibrator is way more complex than the vibrators in the nineteen seventies. Some people are worried as I was doing some research. I was looking at some of the concerns, right? Some of the people who are pro and some people who are gone, and there are some who are worried that they would lose like a real life sex partner to some fabricated other. You know, some idea. Realized sexual object. You know, my husband won't touch me. But he just won't disconnect from the shaggy Nater three thousand kind of thing. You know, do you hear those types of concerns and how about you speak to that? Well, you know since the beginning of time people have been concerned about my partner might find something else. More attractive than me. Whether it's a person of a different race or person of a different age or a person with, you know, more money or different political connections or person who has a dog. So the whole concept of I'm afraid I'm going to get left behind. That's a very old story. I mean, that's the story of Helen of Troy, right? Somebody is married to somebody. And they get involved with Troy and everybody's all upset and they start a ten year war. But I don't think that anybody in in a truly intimate relationship needs to fear any non human competition, whether it's pornography or sex toy or or a robot are. Are there any issues with unrealistic body expectations? We already see this, especially when it comes to women, and the fact that someone can now go in and create a hugely unrealistic chess is waist line. Whatever, you know, the length of the legs or I mean, you just within two. But does this creates sort of a cultural problem where people are still trying even further to compete with an ideal that they would never meet? Well, you know, just like pornography is not responsible for anyone who feels. They have t- was pornography. Robots are not responsible for anyone feeling. They have to compete with a rope. You don't need pornography or a robot around to know that every day of the week your point there as soon as they walk out the door. They're going to see men or women who are younger than you and were attracted, and you and have more money than you and laugh at somebody's jokes more than you and just been twenty minutes at the airport, and you'll see men and women of all shapes and sizes some of which. We'll be more physically attractive, then your own porn, or so, you know, robots pornography. Didn't invent that. The question is how does any of us maintained a sense of our own sexual attractiveness as we go through the life cycle as we get older as our skin wrinkles as Briscoe for big around our neck to being around our waist. How does anybody continue to feel sexually attractive when you go to the supermarket and all the people who used to look at you? They don't look at you anymore. So that's a long term existential project that everybody has to deal with and to say that now it's a sudden thing because of robots or porn or sex toys or anything like that is just not realistic. I mean back in the nineteen thirties. How are you supposed to compete with Clark Gable? How are you supposed to compete with Betty Davis or with Myrna Loy and in the fifties? How are you supposed to compete with Elvis so with Marilyn Monroe? So robots is just is just the newest thing. And everybody has to figure out what is sexually desirable about me. And the unless you're twenty two years old the answer has to be different than I looked like a twenty two year old. I was doing a story near the top of the show about a guy who has in China, and he had no confidence with women. They had no luck or success in relationships. And so we fabricated his own quote, unquote, bride, and I was about this one of the reasons he had done so was and this is his admission was loneliness, can we speak to loneliness when it comes to sort of creating companions for ourselves is that a healthy way to compensate well to ask you something healthy. I mean, that's to ask about one hundred other questions also and at the end of the day. There is no objective answer to that. It's a cultural, you know, that's a cultural question. I mean, a lot of people deal with willingness by getting pets, and some people think that's just the greatest thing in the world and other people think that that's Fetig and. Some people deal with loneliness through Facebook, and some people think that's great. And some people think that's pathetic. And frankly, some people they marry their third husband or third wife when they're sixty five years old just because they don't wanna be alone. And they don't especially love that person. They certainly don't hope that they're going to have this amazing sexual connection, but they just don't wanna wake up alone. And they don't want to go to sleep alone. You know, most people don't think that there's anything wrong with that. So, you know, the question of what is it healthy to deal with your loneliness by taking pill or having a drink or going to a local bar and watching a football game with fifty other strangers or getting involved with a sex robot. That's more of a philosophical or cultural question than it is a psychological question. You know, at the end of the day the question is would that work for you? And if if it doesn't work for you, don't do it. And if it works for you, and nobody is getting hurt. Then you know, the worst thing that you can. Say is that your way of dealing with loneliness doesn't force you to grow some ways of dealing with loneliness force us to grow a little bit. Some ways of dealing with loneliness force us to grow a lot and some ways to dealing with loneliness. Don't force us to grow at all. And if you're prejudiced about growth is a good thing. And that any any solution to you in province that doesn't involve growth, that's sort sorta weasling out. Well, you know, then that's how you're gonna feel about robots talking to your doctor Martin Klein going to bring up some of the heavy stuff. There are many concerns about people using sex robots to act out actual violent fantasies against a partner. You know, this could mean striking or otherwise committing violence against this human analog is this a release against a barely animate object keeps the violent from hurting real people or do you feel this legitimises, the violent tendencies and desires of dangerous people? That's a really good question. And so far what science tells us is pretty. Reassuring so far what science tells us is that if you look at cultures where people with violent tendencies have always for those violent tendencies, they tend to get more violent. So in a lot of neighborhoods where there's a certain amount of violence. There are boxing gyms that open up and young men's organizations where people learn how to box and nobody thinks that's a bad thing. You know? Nobody says, gee, we shouldn't channel this aggression that young men have into boxing because then they might think well since it's okay to punch somebody when I'm in the ring. Maybe it's okay to punch somebody when I'm out of the ring. Nobody says that you know, and the date on that is pretty clear that just because people get involved with boxing. They're not more likely to go out and punch somebody in the nose in a restaurant. So it's the same thing with with robots the truth is that if somebody does have violent tendencies, I would think that anybody would want them to act. Those fantasies with a robot rather than a real person? So I think that people who say, oh, what if people enjoy punching a robot or raping a robot, then they're going to want to rape somebody in real life. I think that's confused thinking because the truth is that if you get the satisfaction of wrecking body, you'll go back and rape or a robot. Again, I also think what's true. And and the research beers is out that there is what David Finkel hor Qualls is dark triad of personality characteristics. That if you have a person, and it's usually, but not always a male. But if you have a person who happens to score high on psychopathy and Machiavellian ISM and north Assim and a belief in in domination, then that person is more likely to be violent real life. That's been true since the beginning of time, and you know, other than putting all of those guys, you know, on a little island in the middle of the Pacific. We. Have to learn how to live with those guys. And the question that every civilization has dealt with is given that there's a very small number of men in our society what ever century, you're in whatever continent, you're given that there's a very small number of men who will pretty much convert anything into giving themselves permission to violence. You know, if you're mean to them, they respond with violence, if you're nice to them, they respond with violence, if you give them, you know, a piece of cake, they responded with violence. You know, what are we supposed to do with those guys? And I think there are a lot of answers to that. I think one of the worst answers to that is let's limit everybody else's right to protect us from that very small number of of highly violent men. So I'm not worried about how how sex robots or sex dolls are going to somehow increase the amount of sexual violence in the culture, the data that we have is that people who are going to be violent with objects. They're going to be violent with those odds. Objects. It's not like you have some perfectly nice boy scout milk-drinking person he acts out a fantasy with a robot and things. Wow. That was really fun to slap a robot in the face think. I'll go slap my wife in the face. That's just not how it happens. Well, I think one of the arguments is that perhaps the pleasure that this abuser gets is seeing a tangible human response seeing pain expressed and those sort of very horrible things. And if they're not getting that from this robotic character than they might segue from the robot to of flesh and blood human being I'm not sure how to ask that question. But does that make sense? Well, what I'm not sure the question. But if the question is if the district people use sex robots at a sex, robots don't cry real tears, aren't they more likely to be sadistic with real people. And if that's your question, then the answer is well sadistic people are going to do what sadistic people are going to do. And if they don't get satisfaction from sex robots, and they act out with real people. Well, they were going to do that before the sexual came along. It's not like the sex robots trigger some sadistic impulse and people people either have sadistic impulses that they don't people who have sadistic impulses. They learn how to deal with them and a few small number of people who have to just impulses. They don't learn how to deal with them and those people are acting up before sex whereabouts were even invented and they will continue to act out. I wanna finish this segment with for broader philosophical question about for shame culture, and some of the puritanism that happens here in the United States. But as long as I'm in this vein. Let's talk a little bit about the child sex robot. There was an article on your own website June nineteenth twenty congress criminalizes sex robots that you speak to HR four six five five the creeper act curbing realistic exploit exploitative 'electronic pet. Pedophiliac robots? The Bill says there is a link in the Bill is reading the language of it. It says there's a link between child sex dolls and participation in child pornography that the dolls are a gateway to rape. And they make the rape of human children easier that they are part of an exploitation and objectification scenario that endangers children and the Bill opposed to make child sex dolls illegal now, I'll be very honest with you. I mean, I'm not a scientist. I'm not an expert. I wanna root myself in the data. But as someone who is genuinely grieved by the notion of sexualizing children molesting and penetrating child even simulated or robotic form, I'm navigating my own mind on this. You know, is this a good thing. So let me just toss it out there. Well, if you look at the Bill the Bill asserts that there's a connection between a and b it's the equivalent of a Bill that says, given the fact that banana is or a proven source of poison we believe. Slater want to limit people's access to bananas. Now if the legislature, whether it's a state or the federal congress legislature wanted to ban bananas because the legislature believed that banana is contained poison there's a procedure for investigating that the congress or the legislature would have to go through they'd have to talk to scientists they'd have to talk to banana growers banana importers banana markers and most important banana consumers they have to talk to a wide range of people before they could say that given up an as a source of poison. We're going to limit the importation bananas. Now, frankly, if bananas are source appointed I wanna see the science, and once you prove it to me, then absolutely build a wall at the border to to coin a phrase and keep those bananas outta here. Now. Now, what this Bill said. This Bill cert- it without one single study without consulting one single expert without ever actually, seeing an actual doll this still asserted that there's a link between the use of these objects and other kinds of objectionable sexual behavior. There's absolutely no study that supports that idea. It's very attractive for a politician or a parent to say anything that makes my kids safe for I'm in favor of and of course, we all feel that way anything that makes kids safer. We're in favor of you know, to the limit of we don't want infantilized the entire society. We don't want to say that since it's not okay for seven year to watch the godfather to we should, you know, censor every adult to access to godfather to I believe it was just as Frankfurt who said. No. It was Mark Twain who said censorship is the idea that just because babies have no. Teeth. Adults should not be allowed to eat steak, you know, which is brilliant. So the legislature says that given the fact that the use of these dolls leads to child molestation and sexual violence and all of that we should limit access to these off. And if that were true I'd be behind it one hundred percent. But the thing is the congress or the legislature never cited one single study. It never convened a panel of experts all it said was that if you take a piece of latex, and you dress it up like a child and allow people to put their penises and those objects in private that somehow that was going to trigger them where they were not interested in having sex with children before it to being interested in having sex with children now, and that makes no sense at all I ask you I'm gonna I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume that you don't have sex with children, right? I'm gonna -ssume that you don't want to have sex with children. And I ask you is there any experience that you could possibly have. Have that would change your mind? Is there any any sex doll? Is there any pornography? Is there any magazine article? Is there any anything that anybody could say is there anything that you could do that? At the end of that experience, you would say to yourself sex with a nine year old. That's a great idea. I'm gonna go. Find me a nine year old and the answer. Of course is no the answer. Of course, is no the idea that absolutely healthy and reasonable people are not interested in having sex with children, and that they can have one or two or three experiences with artificial objects and suddenly wake up one morning and say, hey, if it's that good with a doll how much better would it be with a real kid? That's just crazy on the grander stage when we're talking about sexuality sexual expression sexual liberation the United States seems to be of two minds. We still have of. Religious puritanism going on. And on the other side. We also seem to have a sexual revolution. Would you call it that I mean, what are your thoughts? What I can tell you is that the country is not becoming more liberal about sex. The American people individually individually people in their own bedrooms, they are experimenting with more different kinds of partners in different kinds of consensual activities. There's no data that says that nonconsensual sex is increasing. We're talking about it way more. But there's no data to suggest that it's increasing. There's no reason that it would be increasing. In fact, the rates of sexual exploitation of minors is actually gone down in the last ten years and the rates of sexual violence in general, according to the FBI have gone down in the last ten years, but our consciousness about it has been raised a great deal. So we looking at a sexual revolution. Well, if you ask the average twenty three year old they have access to a different range. Of partners than they used to. And people are investigating. Am I you know, my BI sexual my Demi sexual in my transom, my this or my dad, so and people's personal lives. They're investigating more things more consensual things. But as a society as a political culture as an economic system, America's becoming way more conservative sexually been in the last forty years with the one exception with the one exception of legalizing same gender sex, same gender marriage. This country has way more laws regulating sexuality today than we did thirty years ago. You know, it's it's harder to get an abortion. It's harder to have peace and sex education for your kids in public school. It's harder to find contraception on campus and in the campus health center, there are lots of sexually oriented speech. That's now censored on college campuses that wasn't thirty years ago. And there are people who. Are pushing even you know harder to have even more regulations around our sexual behavior. So if there's a sexual revolution that's brewing. Here it's it's certainly not one that I walk. And don't want to try to put a complex issue in a cookie cutter. But his most of this. Religiously motivated, well, certainly the political power of the religious right is stunningly high. It's a stu-. The religious right is is more powerful in this country that in any other developed country in the world people in Italy thought, the home of the pope people in Germany, and France and Spain they're just stunned at how influential the church here is the fact that every tax in that we subsidize churches by giving them all these tax breaks. You know, the Mormon church, for example, owns literally billions of dollars of commercial property that they don't pay any tax on. You know, if if you open a restaurant, you have to pay taxes on the profits. If the Mormon church or the Catholic church, or the Jewish synagogue or the Muslim if any religious institution opens a restaurant. They don't have. To pay tax on the on the prophet. Whereas you, and I do which gives them an enormous advantage when they own office buildings and farms and things like that. So, of course, organized religion in this country is extremely powerful. And everywhere is religion includes as part of what the issue is is to define normal sex in a very very specific very narrow way. And to talk about what are the kinds of sexual activities that God approves of and one of the kinds of sexual activities that God disapproves of now if you talk to an evangelical Christian, and you say tell me about godly sacks they will point to scripture, and they'll say just follow these rules. You know, don't have a man line with a man, and, you know, don't have oral sex or this or that don't don't go lusting after other women, and then as long as you have heterosexual intercourse within a marriage, it's gone Lee, sex never mind. The fact that it might involve physical pain emotional suffering. It might involve manipulation my info coercion. Asian organized religion is not really interested in that side of sexuality when they go about telling their followers how to implement their sex lives how to express themselves sexually. And that's just shocking shocking that somebody would stand up and say, it's not okay to have for mantis sex with another man. But it's okay for man to demand that his wife has sex with him when she's not in the mood because that's part of the divine plan. Well, if that's part of the divine plan count me out of the divine plan, Dr Martin Klein is there a resource or site or sort of a hub where people can find your work. I want to direct people to your writings and other offerings out there. Well, thank you. I suppose people could go to my website, and that's WWW dot sex, Ed dot ORG because I am a sex educator, so WWW dot sex, Ed dot org. I have my blog they're quote sexual intelligence. You can read about my seven books that I've written about various aspects of sex and relationships. You can see videos of me lecturing all over the world about sexuality where I'm training, lawyers and doctors and psychologists and clergy and judges and all that. So I'd say my website is really the best place to start lots of free stuff there. Lots of well written things if I say so myself, and it's WWW dot sex. Ed dot org dot com. Sex said dot org. Dr Marty Klein, you've been very generous with your time. And you've been a huge part of the show. I'm so glad we were able to have a conversation that kind of cap this compelling and provocative subject matter. But it's nice to sort of tether, a real science. And so you're works. Appreciate it. Thank you. So very much. Thanks a lot. That's about all the damage. I can do on this subject here. I hope you've enjoyed kind of a nice diversion from the usual subject matter. I'll see back here next week on the thinking podcast take care. They're thinking on Facebook and Twitter pretty complete archive of podcasts videos products, like mugs and t shirts featuring thinking atheist logo blinks to atheist pages and resources and details on upcoming free thought events and conventions. Log onto a website the thinking atheist dot com. Five our team with caffeine from green tea leaves? It's delicious energizing and comes in three amazing flavors with zero sugar and four calories. It fits your life with its compact size import ability. It goes where you go to the campsite, the hiking trail the beach without weighing you down five our team caffeine from green tea. Leaps released your natural side from the makers of five hour energy. For more information, visit five hour, energy dot com. And here is one of the most popular pieces in the gallery. The duality of make double power. Can you feel the cheese melted into the puppies? Creating synergy capturing the essence of McDonnell. Yes. Okay. 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LA Times Sports Social Media & Video

Arrive Early, Leave Late

22:03 min | 1 year ago

LA Times Sports Social Media & Video

"Where the time gone. It's episode fifty the arrive early legally podcast. I'm your host about Duran and I take a lot of pride in hosting this podcast when I started had no clue what we're really doing. The wheels were turning. And we were often running one thing that we wanted to do with take the listener behind the scenes of the sports seem of Los Angeles talking with our writers. And I think a lot of pride in knowing that we got every single sports writer employed by the LA times on the podcast, and thanks, a lot to all of them today. We're gonna do something different instead of talking about. Oh, what the Lakers are doing? What the Rams are doing what's going on at USC. Let's just bring you to the staff to be joined by Bedell Martinez who runs a LA times, social media and also by Mark pot. Who does a lot of great video work that you see on the times sports section. So today, it's a special edition behind the curtain of how it all works in the LA sports scene. It's time for the arrive early leave late podcast. It's Wednesday, June twenty six. It's two thousand nineteen you consume your sports, very, very different way from your kid from away, your mom and dad used to. It's different from what used to do a year ago. You now read, you watch TV. You watch video. You look at Twitter, you look at Instagram, you'll get all the social media feeds and you have news instantaneously you don't have to wait till the next day. The written word is still very powerful. But now the writers, they interview a player, they better tweet about it, right? Dan in their, if not their stories in the elite within two hours, if the LA times done a great job investing on making sure that the support staff is huge making sure that the support staff is important. You have quality people doing great work, and it may seem like there's thirty people doing it. But now there's only one there's only one Fidel Martinez. He's running the times sports section social media, and there's only one Mark Potts he's doing video not just what the sports section, but for everybody. And that's the ones like how the Brit say there's. One Ricky Hatton, where there's only one female Martinez. Mark potts. Thank you for joining us. I wanna give kudos to you guys for what you do because you completely changed, and gonna say this as a times, impli a very boring social media feed. It's a something interactive, where I actually wanted to follow it, I want to interact with it, because they used to be before. Here's a score. Here's just story. And that's it was a robot. Why did you change it off del who changed for you? All the credit police. I will take all the. I hate to do this early on. But just a correction, there's actually like to fill Martinez as the other ones. My dad senior. Bang. Mexican you have to have that junior. Okay. I originally started at the times to help the engagement and sports have anyone so naturally being a sports fan by nature. I started helping out in Angel Rodriguez. A lot of credit to just he just told me like do what you do, like I trust you which is kind of a terrible mistake, but so far so good. So why do you interact with the fans because that's a slippery slope right there. My title is audience engagement. And that's exactly what I'm doing. I'm engaging with the audience, you know, I feel like one of the great things about sports is that it's a communal experience. Right. You interact with people, you know, whether it'd be players or reporters or the fans, we have the privilege of being around these events. So why not show them like what? It's like. So you pay the tweet I got paid to tweet. Yes. Audiences engagement and Mark. I see you that you don't just work just the sports section. You do a lot of different sections here at the times. But you wearing a dodger cap right now. I know your sports fan. This is a Los Angeles. This is not a dodger hat. How dare you a journalist? Yes. That's out the window right now. You're. Dodger Catherine and you get to interact with the fans and the players from different perspective, because you had that video camera when people see a veto camera they'll always talk to you, right. Yeah. They will e. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kinda depends depends on the location, the sporting events. But dodger fans are usually pretty down to chat and to be chatty and very vocal you get to go to cool events, March manager, they're learning gamble yet, went to Vegas. Learn to gamble on basketball. You went to the Super Bowl, I did not get to go to the super mill that will. No. That was I had to go to Sundance the Sundance. I was doing the video studio at Sundance. It was early guys I got free donuts every day. So it was pretty cool while early for that. What do you do? What do you do more? I always say, I don't know. I just make a bunch of videos for different departments. A work done video with Gustavo who did the story about the truck driver, who did are on the back of his truck worked with James Queely when he wrote about Michael Conley the author and I did an interview with Michael Conley. I do the sports videos, I'm starting to adventure in the more funny videos, which everything Fidel for you becoming a character on the LA times, social. Media. I didn't know anything about you. But I just saw you walking with at Hampton. You walked in L, A, Thanos glove. What is Dennis Hall? Boy, what is what is standard? It's a movie, right? He's a character in the marvel cinematic universe. Anything about comic books, all of those that you walked into the LA times security, death, which is hard core like one of the Pentagon way that they are downstairs, and you walked it with his arm thing or whatever. Yeah. Had the glove and they let me record trying to get it through security, and Terence was super down to be in it, and his boss. I think thought it was so absurd. She said, yes. Which is nice. That's the lesson if it's the more stupid is the more likely. People say, yes, it really is really is our strategy for making videos together, we usually just spit ball dumb ideas. And then the idea that is sounds dumb as we usually do. I think it's ripe with sports and pop culture, of course, but we're always trying to think of fun videos with dodgers or football team basketball team, any of this stuff because I think fans wanna see that. You're right. You consume media, and so many different ways and so many people. Right. The same story make the same video if I never see another reporter giving me and today's game they won for two for here's my analysis. Thirty seconds. It's boring. It's dry. It's been gun. You have to all from that, and what you guys are doing office interacting. Like you take the fan there and I'm not saying this 'cause we're here at times, but you guys are really starting to do that. We're opening day for the angels. You were there and like, oh, man. That's what it looks like outside dodger games or laboring wherever it is. You guys are at the audience engagement is big because I can read Plachy story. I can read everybody else's story, but I want to feel like a bear, and as a fan you there. Everybody puts on their social media. Like when people go to concerts, all the entire concert cool on your Instagram stark, whatever, but you guys have access at people don't. So when you're on the field, that's what it looks like how much fun is for you just come up with those ideas of what we wanna do. It's the least stressful part, because, you know, with dodgers is what I cover a lot of especially right now because it's baseball season. But during playoffs you. Gotta make sure to get, you know, the pre-game press conferences, he still gotta get some of the, the more mundane stuff, but we have to get that. And then I have to do the post-game stuff in the clubhouse, but, like inbetween Fidel and I are working on other ideas or he is running tweets by me, or I would say, seventy five percent of the time. I'm like, don't tweet that you'll get fired tweets it and he doesn't get fired. He wanted to carefully carefully that, that is the way you could say give a background in journalism. I was an American studies major. I basically studied pop culture and history. Okay. Which weirdly, I feel makes me a really good at this job because it's a lot of wing it, you know, like, literally, my entire major was made up of so like this job is kind of like that, it is the audience engagement, the interaction more people know you from your social media counts, now than they do where you work arosh Markazi who've worked here at the LA times, people know him as Rosh Markazi didn't know he worked at ESPN for a while. They didn't know where Sports Illustrated. They know him from the engagement that he has, and it's true what you have to do now as you have to sell yourself and I give the times a lot of credit podcast. They have a Twitter account. It's interactive video departments. A lot of other places are very. How do you say full of themselves? Yeah, I'll say it that way. And they don't want to adapt and move on. And what's the feedback you get from some of the older writers? That's what I want to know. It's interesting because I feel like a lot of people, I would say a majority, this newsroom understand that we live in a new media landscape and sounds like kind of a BS thing say, but I think a lot of them get it, you know, the glove was me, how do I do my job? While we're in this love and it was a very dumb video, but the movie was coming out. So there was like a little bit of newspakeb to it everything we do that silly has a little bit of a newspaper to it. We do all sorts of ridiculous videos during playoffs in baseball season. 'cause I think sports fans wanna see that I would say like you know what I'm doing the videos with Andy and Dylan and Plaski now whore. Hey, I always encourage them to be mean to each other to, to each other. Because it brings debate. But also like if you're going to watch some people talk about how game win you want it to be entertaining. Like you said, you don't wanna hear all the dodgers won five to three today. Let's talk about it. And Plaski says, well it was neat. The Bellenger hit a home run. Like you want them to, like, kinda go at each other, and they do it. And I think it's a fun way to watch video as for. For how it's taken in office. I received a lot of compliments from all ages. Good. And there's a very specific group of people, I will not mention that, think that were dragging. The names, the mud the LA times is a name that's procedures. It's where you aspire to work if you're a writer, but at the same time in the evolving marketplace that we have where you have so much competition, where you can consume your news. I like it and I'm forty on that weird area. So I started as a reporter before there were social media, and actually had do your real work all the time, and you had time to breathe, and let us story happen. But now you can you have to be interactive with people. Is there ever been any kind of pushback of, hey, calm down? I haven't personally, but that's good. I haven't either good my direct editors and angel especially are always supportive of what, what about the Santa reaction? I think fans, especially some of it is that we do they're not necessarily very cut and dry. So a lot of fans really like them, you know, like we were at Dodger Stadium for Mexico. Inherited tonight, and that's not necessarily like a story that we would. Right. But it's still kind of a big deal because if you live in LA, you know that the dodgers aren't anything without their Latino Mexican-American fans on a Tuesday. It was sold out. And I was at home watching because I don't go to understand when it sold out. There's only for the traffic watching did a great job interacting. You're the next day. I didn't see it in print. I didn't see a story about it because there was no real new story about it. But the interaction that you had were deeded rule is playing a Spanish song on the Oregon. The players Verduga this, it was cool to see where if you're a fan, you're just thinking off the dodgers playing the brewers on a Tuesday, whatever, but you have that build up, and that I kid you not let me give you a lot of credit looking at your tweets that day it made me watch the game a little bit the first couple innings along with my bay, but it was cool to see what went on between the five and seven o'clock hours. You guys had everything going on there, so kudos to you guys for finding thinking outside of the box lamb. Good. Thank you. Any Fidel has done a great job to give you some compliments. Because I know you'll return and give me a lot of compliments. It's only reason I'm doing this. But are you from Oklahoma me? Yes, sooner boomer sooner Lama 'cause you're weren't to Oklahoma hoodie right now. Yes. Just. Okay. It's just Oklahoma's literally just okay? As a Texas, native Texas. Yes. From oklahoma. Yeah. Oh, you're both working in LA. Yeah. That's well, if you want to sit here in Texas, guy, and college football is coming up, and we're going to give each other crap you should that comes around. I keep trying to get him to go to the state fair. The Texas State fair is a big. Well, it's where oh, you Texas place, but it's also like one of the biggest state fairs where they have, like fifty plus fried foods. I think fried beer was introduced there. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Back to the part where you're gonna pay me a compliment. That's that's boring. We don't know. I was gonna say, like there's a fine line between giving a personality to a Twitter and then not being. And I think you do a good job of like engaging just enough that it's like a look at this brand, you know, they say on Twitter, all look at the brand trying to be your brand. But I think what I'm trying to say is like, it's a good personality Fidel Martinez, when you started your career. There was no Twitter or Twitter. Whatever you people wanted to call it, right. Actually. Yeah. You're right. Yeah. Sorry, what's the first? Gordon event you ever covered the first sporting of an ever covered where you got paid in your wall was actually a UFC fight really. Yeah. You to the big leagues yet and you'll find in light for you. Yeah. It was one of the Diaz brothers, the older one. I wanna see neck DS. He fought Condit. Okay. Okay. Yes. Yeah. And you'll fight it was a good fight. It went down, you know, for you, though. Did you were you scared walking, and there was a credential? Not really. I've always been fake until I make it. You know it's fake it when you're gonna high school game when you're in a big arena, late that everybody's looking at you. You got a little okay? Okay. I mean. Yeah. I didn't know what I was doing. I still don't do that night. I was covering it for a company called break media, and the hat, and may specific website called cage potato, which used to be one of the great ones. But anyway, they just needed someone to go. So I went so credential. I know you can't it's in the bottom of my you gotta have. That's one of the cool things about working in sports, you start accumulating credentials of start seeing the photos aging through the credentials. That's a new phenomenon for it's your first ever credential, that was my first ever who. That's what about when you look at it and you see your name on there. It's superficial. It's weird right? It's it's still like even now getting credentialed and walking around you feel like this weird. You're still way for security. Stop. Yeah. Yeah. Didn't do anything when your kid in Texas newspaper anything. No. Nothing. Nothing. I didn't write for my college paper or anything. I just sort of, you know, my parents are both immigrants who when they were like you're going to be a lawyer. You know, when after I graduate and that didn't happen. Well. What am I going to do? So I started logging, you know, and eventually Mexican parents love to know what their kids are exactly because some blogger. Mark potts. The first time you ever worked a sporting event, was where if I remember correctly? It was dodgers playoffs two years ago. Oh, you serious. Yeah. It was the first game of the LDS you went to Oklahoma. Yes. Great. Sports program there. Right. I did not do any sports coverage. I l I interviewed Bob stoops once he was running away from a press conference and I caught up with him. All right. So you weren't part of the Oklahoma sooner Buner. I was part of the, the newspaper. I was part of the newspaper in the sense that the comedy website that I wrote ended video forgot swept up under the so then we just doing it for the news. Did you end up in sports? I just badgered angel until boss. Yeah. Well, I started work here. And then I kept pitching that we needed to do dodgers playoff coverage, and I came up with the plan, and I pitched it and they let me do it. So your sports fan. Yes. But you won't work in sports. And you say, let me find a way to get in there pretty much. That's awesome. And there wasn't anyone covering it so that I play offs. I did dodgers went to game seven the World Series did one hundred and nine videos and thirty. Days. I serious. Yeah. The first time I ever walked into Dodger Stadium as a member of the credential media. Like I grew up going there. My seats were always in the reserve section or in left field pavilion, and I stepped onto the grass at Dodger Stadium. I looked wall. You're not for me, but at stadium is still cathedral, right. Oh, it was breathtaking but also I do a horrific amount of planning. So when I was going to do this, and when they cleared me I did a tour I paid. Off-day tour. I knew I was going. It was still writing in like because elevator Doug same doesn't work. You have to know how to take the stairs, way I've done those. I don't look like I've done those stairs a lot. But I've done first time you do this. There's all this is how it works yet. And now I go to every other stadium and I'm like Dodger Stadium stupid. Yet is has won every other stadium has ninety elevators, everybody cool. Yeah. That was my first time doing or credential, I have home and away credentials. And some of them are here, and some of them are at home and I had to get the buttons because I'm not part of the credential media. So I got the clubhouse buttons the clubhouse button is a special privilege. Yeah. Even the credential BB. They figure out who needs to be in that clubhouse. That means you bury important, Mark Potts because when I would give clubhouse badge some the other radio guys. Why did he get it? That's right. Why don't I don't know how I got it. I got it the first two rounds really easily. And then it was the World Series. The damn thing we'll give it to me. But the dodgers hooked me up in the last World Series. I wasn't. Supposed to get it. But at the last minute, the credential, line, I got split onto the line that the new guy who had never worked World Series was working. So I said, I need one of the playoffs clubhouse buttons, and he's just goes, okay? And I took it. And like I think I was with Fidel and I literally go, we gotta walk. We've got a while. Go go, go posh the hustler. Yes. What some of the coolest sports experiences you've been to? I was at the Super Bowl, I was also the last World Series, which honestly, one of my favorite experiences so far and I'll get your compliment eventually, but one of the cool experiences that I've had so far was during the first two games of the last World Series was dodgers Red Sox. We went to Boston, and we basically were straight for forty eight hours. And then the night before my flight dodger said lost those two games the night before my flight. We had an early morning just like went to grab a drink. And there were just a bunch of LA fans. Boston started the beat LA chant, and there were a bunch of dodgers fans who overtook the bar. And then change the chant from beat LA to east LA was, honestly the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. So like, yeah, that's one of my favorite things. I've experienced another one. You were there when magic decided to straight up quit. All my day was basically. Hey it's the last Laker home game. Let's record a weird because we were standing next to magic right now as he's waiting to speak to the media. So we're interviewing Bill, McDonald Lakers, TV play by play voice magic walks away, and talk to going to talk about, oh, the Lakers blogging season than thirty seconds later. Magic's quick that night is a great example for why social media is important for sports journalism. Because as soon as we heard we walked next door, and I took out my phone and started recording his goodbye, shaky, but we were one of the first people to get it out on, you know. So yeah, I mean it's been it's been a good run. It's been good. You know, hashtag, as, as a kid say, but it's been a privilege to work, you're like working with Mark it's been pots. No. But I mean one of the things we've known each other before we worked here. Okay. But, like we really bonnet working here, and I think some of the. Everett stuff that I've worked has been stuff that I work with Mark, because we just come up with an idea, and then just sort of figure it out. Along the way coup pots, I think every cool really cool sports event, I've been to the team, I'm rooting for lost. So in college, I went to not to brag, but I was in the band, the marching band at oh, you at OU. So I that's, that's a big band. I got to go to the two national championships. They lost the one doesn't exist the US game that didn't happen. And so I got to go to those, those were fun the World Series, the last two years, which is always been an adventure. I think those are kind of the biggest things for me a lot of fun. One last thing actually this recently, the Cannella fight. I got to interview Travis which growing up like he's the legend like he is a reason why boxing, pretty much big in America, and by that, I mean he's a reason why Mexican Americans boxing anybody who's young like you grow watching China's fights with. Mr mark. Potsy. Schlieffer meteorite. Yes. Fidel Martina fit mart eighty-five fit mart eighty five eighty five. That's when I was born he is. So young, your soul engaging keep onto what you guys doing. They'll Martinez Clark pots, putting the LA times social media and video on the sports side. This podcast is our fiftieth, one everybody who listened to scribe great comments. We appreciate you guys as always can't be done without the great producing gave wine who really was the backbone booking on the guest kidding. Everybody here. Coordinate schedules? You try to coordinate a sports reporter, schedule Anna studio and bosses great job. Appreciate you always Mike Heflin is the sound engineer. The reason you're driving on this free right now in sounds smooth in your ears because of my kaffa has, like eight different computers, screens moving around. I walk into a little studio, and I walked right back with I don't wanna touch anything and break anything Mike Heflin, though, the great job with all the buttons, and the mixers in the levels, and Hewlett, whatever you do. Keep doing an Alaska how you do because you're really good at it. So Mike and Dave awesome keep on doing what you're doing with the podcast world on your host. The Duran just been a fun ride throwing down memory lane being able to take the reader, and the listener behind. The scenes of the LA sports scene of a kid who grew up in Carson delivering the LA times now being able to work at the LA times host the podcast. It's just fun. You always say day, but he asked me what are you doing living the dream the podcast really times definitely living the dream? Thank you for listening to the arrival leader.

dodgers LA times Los Angeles LA Oklahoma Fidel Twitter Texas Mark Potts Dodger Stadium Mark it reporter writer Bedell Martinez Lakers Mr mark Duran
#SGGQA 122: YouTube Emotes, AT&T Jacks Your Bill, XPERIA 5 Impressions, LG G8X Reviewing, ASUS ROG II Benchmarking!

SGGQA Podcast – SomeGadgetGuy

2:37:33 hr | 1 year ago

#SGGQA 122: YouTube Emotes, AT&T Jacks Your Bill, XPERIA 5 Impressions, LG G8X Reviewing, ASUS ROG II Benchmarking!

"The Monday morning chat show is brought to you by audible. Audible is of course Premier Audio Book Service. Perfect for folks who want their books read to them thousands thousands and thousands of titles to choose from in all genres sci-fi fantasy biographies history thrillers mysteries. And more we've got a great offer for our listeners. On this podcast to free audiobooks when you sign up and those books are yours to keep even if you decide to cancel your audible subscription which is fourteen ninety five a a month and gives you a free book every month of your choosing as well as some other perks membership has its privileges it up. Bit Dot L. Y.. Slash Geek Book Club to start your free trial and get those two free books on lock once again be it dot L. Y. Slash Geek Book Club. And now. Let's it's getting to the show all right. I believe this means we are live ladies and gentlemen boys and Girls Tech fans of all shapes and sorts and sizes and persuasions. Welcome to another other Monday. Morning Tech Chat Show On the QA podcasts channel. I think it might become a little quiet. I'M GONNA turn up my mic. I'm just a bit and someone in the chat. Tell me if this is too loud or if this is better what's going on here Yes welcome to the show I like to I. Of course Carlos Bagnall the gadget guide. Yes G. G. This terribly named podcast series and the Qa stands for question and answer sir. I like to have an interactive conversation discussion over the tech topics and the Tech News and The one of the main reasons why I like to host my show on a Monday day so we've had a little time to digest the news of the last week. Maybe there was a breaking news story. That happened over the weekend. We can kind of dig our teeth into that and it gives it's the opportunity to follow these new stories a bit more aggressively and Make sure that we're we're we're keeping track of what's going on in our sphere of tech influence so I want to kick this week show off first of all just Sienna. We've got some great chatter already happening in the in the live chat. I see Matt Tyler. ADITI NIL gadgets chat. LFA Reviews Solis. Geek Twenty Miles Nineteen seventy-five Gary the firemen We've got some some from regular faces joining this week's week show we're going to have Some frustrating news to talk about my news block is actually kind of aggravating this morning so ah unfortunately for those of you who've been a longer longtime listener I you understand the crankiness and the soap boxing for for those of you who might be tuning in fresh who might be new to this Apologies for some of the For some of the on we won't be digging into the already have an over under on housekeeping Gary the firemen is saying housekeeping over under fifteen minutes. Let's Sam saying it's going to go over fifteen minutes We actually have a bit of housekeeping to get through this week so that might be That might be a pretty good estimate or or at. least if if you're gonNA play the the price is right saying over on housekeeping. Might not be such a bad jam. I wanted to jump in first of all though that here in the United States. This this is Veterans Day. So Happy Veterans Day. This is this is that time Over the last couple of weeks. If you've been listening to the show you know we've been having issues with with with fires and with some some natural disasters and I it's just a regular plea not just when there's a disaster but to go and recognize those people in your community who help keep your community functional first responders Ambulance drivers firefighters and veteran's Day is for for for his gimmicky as our holidays can feel. Sometimes I do like having that day on the calendar just as the reminder that moment where we can we can we can at least just think and consider and remember the sacrifices that people make for different lines of work. I come from a military family. My Dad's retired Air Force and it's not the easiest lifestyle even even for my dad. You know I'd Ed. He retired as a lieutenant. Colonel he he He worked mainly in sciences and communication and lasers and optics and He had had a project of his was made. Fun on the daily Show Jon Stewart made fun of the Airborne Laser Project C. One thirty with the laser in the nose. My Dad bad worked on the laser system for that for that airplane and and also just I it meant that our family moved around a lot and it meant that I you know the notion of putting down roots or wears home or having childhood friends that you grew up with is is a concept. That's a little a little more difficult for for me and my siblings In the friendships. That my mom struggled to maintain as we moved around But but then also just the experiences that we got to have getting to see more of the country getting to meet more in different types of people being educated in a variety of different schools. I e the there were these amazing perks that came along with it too. So so for those members of your family those people in your circle circles of family and friends. Today's that day today's that day. Just it's okay to look at the calendar. Urgency see a formalized holiday and and actually participate with the sentiment of the holiday. So Ah for from from some gadget guy to to your family Thank you for your service and thank you for your participation and thank you for. We're your sacrifices from someone who got to see firsthand. What some of that looked like respect? It's it's not always is the easiest choice to make and it is always nice to know that there are people who have made that they're calling so At least on this side of the livestream twitch equation know that. It's it's acknowledged at seen in. Its recognized okay. Oh and we have format tyler. Happy Veterans Day everyone. We just had our remembrance day over the weekend. Let's see L.. L. Happy Veterans Day. Everyone much respect to all those who risk their lives. So that civilians like us can go about our daily lives Sam Twenty Miles eighteen seventy five marine corps birthday and today. Ah Thank you for you and for everyone service From Solis Geek. The honor is to serve Solesky big nod I I don't know if Ronald Collins is GONNA be jumping in but Solis Geek into Ronald Collins on the some gadget guy discord. I know Our our Our veterans so Many many many big thanks much respect okay and and not like video game aim respect like I'm not saying press f sorry I just realized like okay. So much of the video game nomenclature and in and dermatology is infesting my my daily conversational skills. Let's get into some housekeeping so that we don't run this for two two two long Boeing by F. Question Mark It's a terrible joke From call of duty where call of duty sort of manipulates your emotions by trying to make you feel something but it does it in a very regimented way. So you're you're at a you're at a soldier's funeral and they the game just tells you press f and that will make you pay your respects so it's it's a long running video game I it's it's a tear. It's terrible again i. It's because like call of duty sort of built on the recognition of the people who serve in the armed forces while also. Oh it's a video game so you kind of have to sensationalize and dramatize what real people actually go through. I it's art in commerce and Video Games and social commentary and sometimes they don't always gel so that I feel was rightfully criticized back in the day I forget which which which version of call of duty it was but it felt overly cynical to standover social salt soldiers memorial and then you push one letter on your keyboard. Your character in the screen pays his respects. It's clumsy let's say it was clumsy Blowing bike advanced warfare was CAUDA W okay get into some housekeeping. Actually had quite a few things go up And I feel like the success and failure of some of the videos editorials that I worked on last week is kind of guide me in that direction where I still want to review gadgets and I still wanNA review products but also Kinda WanNa dig a bit more philosophically into the discussion of these gadgets rather than just blueprinting the exact same sort of review regiment first impressions video and then a month later after an update I try and do Review and then there's is a camera video for the Patriots One and then like six months from now I try and do a follow up like I kind of want to tell the story of gadget a little bit more than just exact same video process for every single phone that comes down the pipe and again kind of like how this was motivated with the Pixel three a the pixel four is also. It's an interesting beast. It is a more complicated story than just. Oh Google should should have done this and now it's not as goods a phone so it's less worth it's for the money but we ignore similar criticisms on iphones and galaxies but Google is a smaller player in their own operating system ecosystem. So it's easier to pick on them for making decisions that don't jive with breath sort of the hardcore android enthusiasts community. It's weird okay. So I'm having a hard time getting to my finished finished script for the Pixel for without it just being me. Soap boxing in pontificating What one of those things I I'd let me let me go into the this is On some Gadget Guy Dot Com hoops. Did you really just jump ahead in my housekeeping. All right Let me so I I put out this video. It super frustrating when we talk about something thing like air gestures so the Pixel. Xl has a radar chip the solely chip and it can sense movement bindt around the front of the phone. We have been playing with air gestures for a long while back to the Galaxy S. four so I compared three different versions of how air and hand gestures can work so the title of the Article Pixel Xl Verses L. G. G. Eight Verses Mrs Galaxy S. Five Air Gestures are hard. This is not to excuse what some people might consider to be a gimmick but but this is to illustrate alternative interactions on a phone are extremely difficult. going back to the Galaxy S. four galaxy. Yes five days. There was a ton more functionality in what Samsung was trying to do but convince was terrible. The specific diffic- absent interfaces were very regimented. So you would have one interaction in one place and then I think logically someone might think. Oh well if I can swiped the side here I should be able to swipe to the side there and it doesn't work that way. It only works in very specific instances and you have to have a very specific kind of hand choreography to accomplish the task later. LG followed that up L. G. G. Eight put a time of flight sensors so they could make face on lock more secure and with time of flight sensor you have a a very detailed tracking camera of a three D. tracking cameras so they try to do something fun with alternative gestures but but to differentiate. What's US sort of reaching for the phone versus what you trying to control the phones volume again running into the same problem Less so with conveyance. Because they tell you the phone tells you when it's activated the time of flight camera but the interaction has to be very specific. You have to kind of do this. Houla hand dance to get at the g eight to do anything. So the Pixel four actually fixes both of those issues. It's still conveying when this holy chip is being used. There's a little white ghosting strip at the top of your notification shade and they've simplified the gesture so they work pretty much everywhere at any time but they only work on a couple things you can only switch you can only skip tracks in your music APP and you can silencing alarm but one of the key functional differences is being able to reach for your a phone and it starts to wake up the screen like I reached for my Pixel and the screen turned on. Its all ready organically reacting to you before you've even picked up the phone on it sublime it's very subtle. Some people might decide that. That's not worth it but you shouldn't fault. The interaction being simplified is is is an improvement. I find it frustrating because in one year we've had the exact opposite reactions is to hand gestures from many of the same tech reviewers so all of the people that were panning. The G. Eight for being too complicated in how you interact with that system and not acknowledging that you need to differentiate hand gestures if the G. Eight just randomly started messing with your audio every Tom. You wave your hand in front of the phone that would be really bad on a phone with a headphone amp. That can blow out your ears like you. You need to be deliberate in how you interact with a feature like that but of course that functionality too complicated and I used the phone for four days four days as before it went on sale to the public and I made the definitive conclusion that it's not worth it's for the money's I've actually gotten pretty good at. LG hand gestures like it's not that a hard it just takes a little bit of practice Then a lot of those same people complaining that well the Pixel for doesn't do enough and this is exactly why this is such like techniques are looked upon as being so insufferable is. It's too complicated. Does too much and you have learn too much to to interact with it and oh this over here is way too simple way too easy and like it doesn't do enough. It should be doing more to impress me and I disagree. I feel the main. The main crux of this is we need to nail the action first and then find out how we can expand the functionality. I think a a beautiful example If we WANNA talk about companies that that failed with an alternative gesture is apple and I talk about that in the video too. So so three D. touch crashed and burned alternative gestures conveyance the functionality and if in the most successful aspects of three touch were uh-huh the simple things. Like you know moving your your your cursor when you were scrubbing through text by force pressing into the keyboard works way better than long depressing on the space bar for the newest version of IOS. Getting rid of that is frustrating. It's it was better on my iphone. Ten s than what we currently have with apple getting rid of Three touch so I made a video about about it. I kind of just summed it all up for you but you should check that out just realize like I'm just I'm basically just regurgitating the whole video for you here Yeah my pixel review is going to be a very interesting beast okay. Moving on I had to pick a fight with one of my favorite youtubers Uber's It's not pretty is the ugliest bloodiest war one could imagine between two people who care very much about their scientific typic- processing their methodology. But Gary Explains I had to take him down. You know Even even when I adore a youtuber just just Just Flying Elbow right off the top rung so Gary put out a video. The problems with network speed tests Gary's Gary's reasoning in. This is very very sound. He's been he's a lot of people have requested that he add things like network performance to the way that he tests phones Test phones performance. And he I mean He. He made a video commenting on it. I mean that's one of the things that I actually really like about his style of commentary Terry and and his channel is He doesn't just ignore and he doesn't just not do it. He does incorporate the question into some of his commentary and then he explains the process. I don't feel enough youtube viewers. I pay attention to the process. Like there's a reason why we're putting things together in a certain way or the reason why we're trying to analyze things in a certain way and so gary is reasoning. Here is extremely sound if you use a network speed test APP this me paraphrasing by the way. There are too many variables to consider for network performance. So you you speed test rate and you push the button and it gives you a score and it's it's always almost always like the maximum score of whatever that network can support which I doubt very much but you have very little control over what server server you're going to you can kind of point to a server and say. Hey I'm in California send me too. I'm in Los Angeles to a server in San Jose and will measure that time. I'm in that difference but how that information actually tracks from my location in Los Angeles to San Jose can take a myriad number of different routes different interconnections different nodes. There could be different congestion at different times of Day. It's very difficult to use a one stop shop APP and then act like that. That is a consistent measure of performance. That only gets more difficult as you factor in. Lt Network performance. Is there a weather condition. That's impacting tower. Signal reliability is the node oversaturated. Is there are there way too. Many people on the receiving end of that data packet. It's it's not as easy as any of these speed testing APPs. Make it out to be but disagree in in the sort of philosophy osophy of that meaning. We can't test network performance so in the article and I've I've linked in the live chat. My article is we. He can test some network for. This is what I do when I'm looking at phone performance for the last year I've been trying to maximize my home network I have a NAS. I've got a Mesh router and I can control a lot of the variables that happen internally on my network so I don't have to worry about network congestion on a node one hundred miles away. I am running. Thank reception in Wi Fi tests all internally on my home network so I connect to one specific node on my Mesh Schroeder. I can stand in the same place. I can download the same files I can time the same interactions and I can go from phone to phone. So I tested my iphone tennis against and one plus seventy as an example of how we might compare and contrast this data and I think you can see some some some differences and those differences have been fairly early consistent as I've tested Sony Phones Samsung phones. LG Phones one. Plus I phones of various types over this last year. There's an emerging trend. I can't say it's definitive but we can use it to start. Predicting what phones might have reception. Russian and signal issues and what phones are going to perform veteran challenging conditions. So I wrote up my process and this is actually something I I would hope. Other people bull externally of me might take into consideration when they're also testing their own gadget doing their own reviews on these gadgets because if we start to collect samples and and data from other sources we can compare and contrast and then we can also come to some comparison points that might improve my testing like. Oh Hey you're trying to do this one big file download instead if you look at the performance for you know a bunch of small files that might change the performance of Wi fi. You're doing this in that. I I can't cover all the bases on my own home network but we if other tech reviewers wanted to review this stuff We'd be able to Kinda Kinda share notes. We'd be able to point to each other's tests and say well this is what's going on. Oh and I think this is. What's happening over here and this is how I think we can improve that? So that's that's my Gig. I'm actually putting out an article like this because I kinda hope you know like a marina. Wouldn't that be a perfect place to start looking at radio and antenna performance they already have it testing methodology. They audio wrong but I bet you they could get wifi right uh-huh so all in love because again like I said Gary Gary Explains is actually one of my favorite channels On Youtube because I like cranky old guys who liked to dig into the nuts and bolts of things. And so I feel like Jerry is is is a kindred spirit in that regard you know if you if you ask someone if you ask a techie. kind of a loaded question like what's better this or this and they don't start off with well that's complicated and I don't think they're really doing their due. Diligence in explaining technology elegy Insect technology concepts. Almost everything you will ask me is it depends. Hey what about this microphone. It depends and what kind of camera it depends. which phone do you think it depends if it's the only the only true through answer if you'll comfortable delivering when people are dropping these by the way I wanna make this a bit more of a mailbag and question and answer? We've got some phone to talk about in the second half of the podcast. So have your questions is ready because my answer is GonNa be it. Depends Gary the firemen best toilet paper. Oh it kind of depends. I'm I'm not a big fan of the most est softest quilted EST stuff because I don't always feel the cleanest. How about we leave that right there? All right Another bit of housekeeping. Here this was a Biggie to put together and I finally got it all sorted where I felt l.. Comfortable actually talking about a a monster phone so there's no shocking There's there's no shocking conclusion. Here we've got the one plus seventy six hundred dollars. This is an insanely monster performer. Upper mid range bang for buck. This this phone is epic a league. No one is going a question that so what I felt was important to discuss and I got a couple of comments like people who were concerned that I was maybe slamming coming the phone Because I also liked the one plus seven pro and that maybe this was sort of an indication that I was only recommending the most expensive phones but the thing that I found a little troubling about the one plus seventeen discussion again. Sort of the philosophy of the review was dismissing all of the differences in all of all of the improvements that you might find on a more expensive device if you followed my videos and if you follow my podcast you would no. I don't believe most consumers should be spending more than four hundred dollars on a modern phone. If you're tech savvy. You can import art you. Know some stunningly powerful phones. And if you're willing to handle some of those compromises in importing a phone here in the United States you can get insane hardware for four four hundred bucks was it. The nineteen pro is currently on sale on Amazon for three eighty three hundred eighty dollars. And it's a capable competitor to the one plus seven But also felt like so so many of the reviews early reviews coming out for the one plus seven t were hinged enjoyed more on. Here's the one plus seventeen. We're comparing get into seven pro and there's no reason to buy the seven pro and that's not a review. That's that's a comparison that you've already gained to highlight one phone. You think is going to be more popular because there are are good reasons to still consider even here in the United States where we don't get the one plus seventy pro. We're only getting the one plus seven pro. There are still reasons someone might consider interest in pro over seventy and it's not as cut and dry as well as number five plus snapdragon eight five five plus greater than snapdragon eight five. That's that's that's not how this works so So so my review seems a little not not milquetoasty. It's it's not like I'm down on the phone. I'm very positive. Is it on this phone but also Kinda WanNA properly express like this is the experience and it's really good but it doesn't mean gene. This is the only experience there is no winner or loser here. There are reasons why someone gravitating to this phone is going to be very well served and there are reasons why I shopping above this phone still might be a benefit to someone who values those types of more premium. Parts and experiences dances so it it again. It was a complicated review for me to put together. I I'm almost like I want to do like a one. Plus seventeen versus pixel xl video just because the philosophies are are so different now. It's not the same one to one like with like the Pixel two in that era of one plus phones a well. I just recommend one plus because pretty much the same thing and this is how you do it. I mean I it's there's there's so much nuance and in the company. Philosophies are so different that the conversation is interesting. Not because there's a winner loser easy thumbs up thumbs down on it. It's not that easy and speaking of I asked managed to tick off a lot of people on twitter again life again. A lot of people get kind of twitchy when I talk about headphones. And it's not like I haven't been reviewing premium recording kit and audio kit for fifteen years now but Twenty Miles nineteen seventy-five Hashtag some pisses off twitter. Peop- Sky Boeing by when in. La Reviews feelings get hurt on twitter. Easily so previous podcasts. Like you got to see how disappointed I was in. Apple's design decisions on the air pods pro talking about repairability talking about longevity It was after after last week's podcast. I kind of just sat in front of my computer here and knocked out in editorial point for point situation for situation price for price. True wireless has gotten much better this year. Twenty nineteen was the kick start. Start Year for true wireless to be taken seriously and I've enjoyed my reviews. I I like my one more stylish. I like my helm true wireless wireless. I'm a little concerned. I just got the wall way buds. I I hope they're good. I some very you know what I WANNA do in the video. Just a just a tangent real quick because they're very similar in design to airports right. We've all seen wall weighs ear. Buds look very very much like your pods and air pods. So I kind of want to start the video off with obviously concerns about air pods But this this has is a hallway label on it. So it's a it's better than apple so all my concerns for air pods are gone on these because while we and then I want I like hard hard stop the video and actually act like that was the end of the video. It's so dumb and trolley but I kind of want to point to some of the people in the IOS ecosystem is like this is what you sound like. You did not rationally consider this product. You saw the apple label on it and then you said apple said it was more convenient Yeah I digress the article. I'm actually the video. I'm actually trying to point to neck. Bands or better than true wireless ear buds. It's not even even close. And I feel like we are sacrificing practicality longevity audio quality four four looks Kinda neat so in the image. I'm not even leaning on airports. This is not directly Kalihi a commentary on Air Pods in my thumbnail. This is my one more stylish sitting next to my absolute league league gorgeous. One more triple drivers the one more style. Stylish are punchy convenient. You know single driver driver. They sound good. The one more triple driver neck band three drivers super rich base. I actually really have to to to roll off the base. I think they're they're a little aggressive for me and they support advanced audio Kodak's so you are actually feeding them a a higher quality signal right now when you shop them online. These two solutions are almost the same price. I'm getting again a little tired of audio reviews. That seem to to kind of champion. The idea that well I mean gadget guy. Would you have to understand our you know people. People don't care about audio quality on their super expensive headphones. People don't care about that like it's driving me a little little bit. Crazy McMahon were practical. They're harder to lose LG does have some issues with durability with the way that they do. They're retracting mechanism. But I still have like years old tone Neck bands that are outperforming current True wireless airless options and I found these guys. I thought I'd lost them forever. These are my plan. Traffic's backbeat go. These are Oh gee I got these. He's in twenty thirteen and for for at least a solid year. These were in my ears every day and battery life wise. They still hang thing with air pods. Today I ran these guys hard. I was not kind to them and then I lost them in a gym bag and only only found them about a month ago and they still they still hang with air pods. So that's kind of the again. I'm trying to who express a variety of audio products. Because my fear is we're gonNA look at what's cool in trending now. We're GONNA invest so much more time talking about those options. Manufacturers are already making more true wireless. They're easier to lose the bill. The business model is if you lose an Air POD are you gonNA GONNA go out and buy a whole new set of ear buds or are you going to replace that one air pod. So apple makes more money on and the replacement and the re when not repair costs. Because you can't repair them but we're starting to find like hundreds of these things like falling through subway. grates like the in New York. I forget Newark. Transit has already found rescued A couple hundred individual air pods this year. You know like that's one subway subway system. That problem is going to compound in manifest is is air pods. Go onto to their. What on track for twenty five billion next year? Something like that. That never happens with the neck band. You pull the ear your bud out of your out of your head and then you drop it and then it just stays around your neck just the practicality of that head and shoulders head and shoulders above Of True wireless so Yes as LFA reviews So concisely states neck band ear. Buds are highly lately underrated. Oh huddles hero. Shout out to the oneplus bullets. The oneplus bullets especially the bullets to. I don't know if you're on the bullets the bullets to bullets one Rivera. I'm not knocking. The bullets won the bullets to our triple drivers for one hundred bucks and do that really cool magnetic answering the phone trick. And they do the auto pairing airing just like air pods do and there are a hundred bucks. It's real I I was wondering if Gary the firemen was still using his Because I he won my pair of one plus bullets to wireless due due to do a couple of people saying that the LG tones were kind of trash The problem with LG tones that they put out so many so like if you wanted the Sportier sportier version. They used to do. A real hard neck clamp And those I do believe did have some kind of DT tuning or a abt axe. I I can't remember but that was a very aggressive tune. That wasn't very good for just casual. Listening it was they were built all around. Like you're gonNA run on a treadmill or you need to block out noise and the mix was very aggressive. Those were rough. The tone studios sounded phenomenal. And they're still some of the ear. Buds Ed's I point to is having the lowest hiss or background air. The newer the newer tones kind of a mixed bag. I look at them as being more convenience. It's products than audio file products. Like they've got a Google assistant button. That works phenomenal. I can't express like you have true wires and you long press one ear and it kicks on your assistant and you have this interaction as opposed to the button on a new pair of tones worked very much like the squeeze function on a Pixel missile. And it'll read your messages back to you automatically I. It's it's more a tech platform expands on the audio functionality. Of your phone and they sound good. They don't sound amazing That to me is like if we're GONNA talk about air pods for convenience. I still feel like tone neck. Bands wreck wreck air pods in in most situations and that you can get them for cheaper than air. Pods to win a wireless charger case but again longer conversation. Asian long as part of it. I mean you could try and argue with me but you're wrong. Neck bands are better than true wireless. LFA reviews. I dropped than I am. Review today. Wired Carbon nanotubes. Drivers are a huge step up in quality. Were those the ten ten audio Because I've been seeing a lot of people talk about ten audio so that was housekeeping. That took way too long so Let's let's get into some aggravating reading news stories. Of course all of the stories all of the links everything that we're going to point to I'm GonNa try and drop them in the live chat here and then you can always hit the show. I note some Gadget Guy Dot com or on any of your favorite podcasting services. If you're catching us on the audio stream but we yes the tin audio t I four from. LFA Reviews K.. Folks are you getting bored of the current collection of tech and commentary on the Internet is the discussion of electronics. Feeling a bit stale the WanNa find some fresh voices to add your subscription Q.. Check out the community on our glowing. rectangles on Reddit of this bread it was built to help new voices in the Tech Community entity find more audience and we need your support sharing commenting and those precious tasty votes read. It can radically help a contact. Creator gator expand their reach. Do you know producer. Who deserves more attention? Do you wanna find funding stuff. Head on over to read dot com slash are slash glowing rectangles goals and share or browse to your heart's content. Once again read it dot com slash rs slash glowing rectangles and. Let's build something cool together so hard shift getting into the news topics this week. I feel like Youtube having some problems like this was another sort of rough weekend for YouTube. I've been very critical of many of youtube. Business practices if you're watching this. You're if you're watching this right now if you're watching it live. You're watching it. On twitch mixer periscope or facebook. And you're not watching it live on youtube and I don't feel like I had any any any foreknowledge that something like this was going to go down but it I feel like we could be looking at the writing on the wall all the decisions that Youtube are making as a corporate entity not always the best for smaller and medium-sized content creators. And now also pretty rough for a larger big sweetheart of a content creator I am of course talking about the multiplier. Youtube has a problem video so let let's break this down real fast. Mark Plyer runs sort of a had a tech commentary a gaming commentary and game stream channel. He's currently at twenty four point six million million subscribers. He's a big deal so he was playing a game during one of his streams where he would have his community hit different emotes emotes to to sort of guide or make decisions and they they make a joke out of spamming. Those emotes so youtube saw that behavior install unsal users spamming emotes during a livestream and the automated systems at Youtube started. Banning Google accounts no warnings. No strikes you violated a community guideline that no one knew about and instantly started shutting off channels and Google accounts so it wasn't just like someone spam some emotes during a marketplace or stream and then their youtube you account got suspended. They couldn't get into their g mail. They couldn't get into their Google play content. I'm I'm I'm on project FI. It's linked to a g mail account. That's how I manage my phone. That would shut off. My phone is unreal unreal bad. Look for Youtube. So we're at the point that we're at now we went. I WANNA say four days. Was it November. Oh so a little more than three days so the this video went up November eighth but people were affected before this video went up. So yeah we're around. Four or five days and accounts are starting to be turned back on but the entire process at youtube completely failed so those individuals who had this issue and went to Dispute dispute the Youtube System. Were basically just all shut down. There wasn't really a human element to discussing. Sing like this was happening. On the channel the person hosting the stream was encouraging this behavior. and Oh and by the way I mean Matt Tyler Bowling by spam those emotes modes here on twitch. I'm good with it. We're not streaming on Youtube. So just go for it. I feel like I. I'm not too concerned about emotes onto which I'm super concerned about emotes on Youtube now and I'm happy happy to not be streaming on Youtube for for this type of story so anyway Disputes all of them were summarily dismissed and Youtube stuck to their decision decision making process that this violation was so severe that on a first infraction people's Google accounts full. Google accounts needed to be shut down so mark Plyer I mean his his response is is was necessary. It was his action on his stream to encourage that behavior that got followers of his channel locked out of their google accounts but also kind of feel that the dramatics that the the play acting of a situation like this is starting to wear a bit thin. We're in a situation now where youtube is still discussed as some kind of monopoly institution. You too hasn't been around that long and there are other solutions. Mark Pliers running a live stream. There are other places he he could run that livestream and he has an audience that would follow him. He has an audience. That would back him up. He could easily land it mixer deal right. I mean with twenty four four point six million youtube subscribers. I'm sure mixer would be like. Hey Bro here's some cash. So it's a IT'S A. It's a frustrating situation. Youtube screwed up market player then takes to Youtube to air his grievances fences so we get another one of these videos. Forehead in in hand and Youtube has a problem dot dot dot and literally the next market player video that was recommended to me after watching. This was almost the exact same drama video that he did last. Last year is almost like there's an anniversary of mark apply or doing yearly. Youtube is broken videos. I mean it's right here on the side like right off to the side here when I finished watching this video. This was the next video that auto played for me. At what point do we consider a change. At what point do we pull the plug. At what point do we say. Hey you know what I don't want to do business with this company anymore. And a a lot of suppliers reactions in theatrics ring kind of hollow. So if you'll if you'll pardon I WANNA do sort of like a dramatic reinterpretation urge dramatic interpretation of what it felt like to see this so we've got to. We've got to set the mood here. I'm going to try and you get that and it's it's a little it's a little more somber somber now. So so I I we start with with the perfect. The perfect thumbnail. So maybe not maybe not exhaling. Maybe maybe just I've got a migraine. We'll go with. Oh Oh oh I need excedrin. That's my motivation for the thumbnail. You just Kinda hold that first second so let me let me fix my hat and then We're GONNA jump in going to start the video office. If I just sat down the total totally organic totally Rogge is totally raw. So here's here's here's the the beginning of the video. Go Go ahead and push record and then we do like a hard cut like you saw. You saw my angst you sight and we're going to cut cut to me speaking here. Here's the angst and now off you know what up Youtube I never I never liked making videos. Goes like this although I make videos like this pretty much every year This is this is hard because I'm I'm outraged and you can tell them outraged. Did you see the thumbnail. I had excedrin headache. That's how you know I was outraged. So here's the deal folks. I make a ton of money with this company. I do great. I'm doing business with this company but this company I won't stop punching my friends in the genitals. They just keep doing it. The they cut me a check and then they go to my friends and they punch him in the genitals. And I'm like Bro. Don't do that. What's up so it happened again? Took a bunch of my friends. Punched him in the genitals. And I'm like stop that so I wrote another sternly unle worded letter. I told them. Hey stop doing that again. Nothing more I can do bro. Nothing more I'm I'm totally really stuck. So I'M GONNA I'M GONNA keep doing business with the company but man. It makes me so outraged they just keep genital punching over over and over man. I just don't know what there's nothing else I can do. There's nothing else I can do. I do business with a dozen other companies that have platforms. That would allow me to do the same type of business but it seems like you're just GonNa keep getting your genitals punched but I'm outraged and and you know I'm outraged because I did excedrin headache. That's for Real Smash Subscribe Button. Hit that bell icon. Catch you on the next one and seen all right I mean I I I am definitely. I'm definitely making light of a very complicated situation. You don't walk away from Channel With Twenty four million subscribers stories on it I get that but at some point we need to stop acting like Youtube is this institution and that nothing can compete with it and especially for someone like mark apply where the main main reason his viewers got into trouble with for a live streaming action youtube. visit terrible place to be hosting livestream. These days the got rid of Youtube Gaming. The comrade rid of hangouts like why would you go there. There are better tools and platforms to fulfill that in the moment interaction as soon as youtube started. Playing Games with with monetization with demonetizing Mike Channel. I I don't know for certain but as soon as I started talking about net neutrality and Tech Politics Mike Channel Channel got newt and it's never completely recovered not even close when it comes to recommendations view time watch time and knowing that people are getting notified about my videos that all evaporated and then they started playing those games with community guidelines and community strikes that you could be held responsible ensemble for comments that you leave that I could be held responsible for the comments that you leave. Every single step of the chain since that mass add Pakalitha has been harder and a bit more of a wrench Titan on a little bit more of a vise clamp on the types of content that we produce this is not a good look in a good trend and for someone who does actually value building community. The main reason I got into Youtube was to have interactions and to have conversations about out technology. Not Just to yell at you folks and tell you what what to think like again I host this livestream with a live chat. Because I need to I I I if I just sit here and soapbox it's be terrible terrible content so There's an opportunity here. Someone like a Marco Plyer if you really wanted to put pressure on how Youtube does business in how these community the guidelines are constructed. He could make a tough decision. I it's it's it was a way less angsty and difficult decision for me to pull a podcast. That was doing really well on Youtube and move it over to twitch my my numbers on twitch way lower but I'm so much happier with the community interactions and and now I feel a little bit safer that my podcast is actually live streamed on twitch than if I had continued to keep giving youtube my business if we don't like how how a company does business. Why do we keep doing business with that company? You can write all the letters you want. You can make all of the excedrin headache videos you you want. They're not going to change until they have a reason to change and as long as people are still going an outrage video like this is at three point three million views. Do you think tubes upset about people watching three point three million views on a nine minute video. No that's great news for you to Youtube Tube and mark apply or get to be new stories that keep people on Youtube longer and it's better for his channel and it's better for youtube so his his grievances aren't going to effect change. The reason why I wanted to lead with the mark apply or situation is because we also just got the heads up on the new terms of service for Youtube and again. I have some concerns and I tweeted this out. This was the primary thing that makes me a little nervous about the direction that Youtube is heading being. So if I go back into screen share and to read this op specifically so we've got account suspension and termination terminations by you terminations in suspension in of by Youtube for cause and then terminations Bhai Youtube. I service changes youtube. May terminate your access or your Google's Google accounts access to all or part of the service if you to believes in its sole discretion that provision of the service to. You is no longer commercially viable. I'm not a lawyer and I cannot tell you what that means but I I do have a pretty well researched background on fair use law so when I read a statement like that in in in a in a refined or revised terms of service and it's super vague and it super wide. Open that to me means that Youtube is probably going to start examining user behavior to a finer degree on their platform and to see what might make sense for blocking people who freeload on Youtube. My fear fear with that comment is that they're going to start looking at people who use youtube advanced if you've used that APP APP it's an APP that gives you some of the benefits of premium youtube subscription. You just have to side load this cracked version of a youtube APP or ad blockers and the number of the people that you know like. Oh I don't worry about ads. Nuke them all and this also goes hand in hand with the changes that they've recently made the chrome where they had to back off some of it but we covered this on the podcast. Awhile back where they were making it more difficult for people who made chrome plug ins to make the strictest adblocker plug ins that they could and and one of the reasons why I'm on fire Fox too many nefarious poorly coded or outright. Malware adds to take a risk when you go to different sites around the Internet but Google is working to try and maintain a certain. Add dominance. So it's in their interest to use their browser are to weaken some of those adblocker situations. You put that next to a change in their terms of service is that they want all of the viewers of Youtube content to be profitable. That's a that should be a worrying trend. I'm not at that point. Where I'm saying? The Sky's falling. pull the plug runaway. Don't use Youtube Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah. But Man. We gotta pay attention to this man. We gotta keep an eye on this. This is not the direction I think we want to be headed for user generated content and especially for all the channels. That are having a hard time right now. On YouTube AD AD sales are down advisor down. Monetization is down and there are so many more minefield a minds to to step on than there used to be when I started producing for you to the community aspects of eroded. I don't I don't build the same community like I used to when I started. I don't have the same interactions with community. Even stupid changes like how your comments get it stacked and nested. Make interactions more difficult and more contentious. Everything on Youtube Platform has gotten just that little drop more toxic over the last a couple of years and these two recent developments happening happening back to back. It's been a rough week for Youtube. Just it's been a rough year for youtubers so I need to clip this whole section the market prior liar. I'm seriously debating whether or not even I even want to upload this this week's podcast to Youtube and I might not twenty miles. Nineteen seventy five. It needs music like maybe a piano or slow Violin de nil will sees the thumbnail. Somebody gets in aspirin for murder order. This was the best time to tune into the stream. So uh-huh Solis Geek. I'm restraining myself or making a corollary to the economy and L.. Three point three million views on a video. That is bashing you to Again I I. I'm not saying that you should take a decision like this lightly but I wanna put this out there to fold Community Eighty is not tied to one social networking APP. When Youtube started messing with channel? I learned right away that there were still people who followed me for me and man that linked right up with my favorite people to have conversations with so moving over to twitch and getting way. Fewer views didn't hurt. It didn't hurt. It felt good. I know twitch has their issues too and on twitch I am doing business with another mega corporation that I have issues with. I'm also co streaming on mixer. And that's another Mega Corporation that I have concerns with but if we act like Youtube is the only institution and that they should be the only only source of traffic. We're not gonNA like that future. It's fine and Dandy to to soapbox about competition but if you don't don't change your behaviour than there is no competition and we have all of these amazing resources. I mean from literally running our own websites again our own blogs but stepping outside of the Algorithm ICK vice grip of Youtube and facebook the behavioral tracking of Amazon in even Microsoft fighting us on things things like right to repair like Apple. We don't WanNa lose these these tools. We want to keep them. We want to keep. Our options is open. We don't want to fall into the trap of minor convenience today leading to full on monopoly lead tomorrow so hopefully. That's something we can take away and that's something we can learn from the situation here and because I'm on twitch I'll put it out there again that that if you want to spam the emotes spam those emotes right let's move on to something else super frustrating. I'm an blitzer this one real fast. I promise I promise I know I always lie to you. But there's going to be this one's a promise. Okay okay so hold before I go into this next one. When Mr Pulp Fiction is there a real competition? Is there real competition out there for Youtube. My experiences as you if you're a live streamer. Youtube is the worst place to do that. If you're engaging with with your community in real time it's terrible the tools there suck. The community tools are awful. The moderation tools are a generation behind mixer. Twitch really does have a better platform for interacting in real time in live streaming when we're talking about hosting video WPRO. It's tough the argument for Youtube. Used to be discovery. Like you're a part of Youtube that make means you were. were organically more valuable in Google search but with the more recent games that they've been playing. I'm getting less discovery so if the big argument is you've got this huge platform and you're easier to find on a bigger platform than you has a great argument to make if I have to go out there and hustle my own views and reach out on my own social media accounts and spread my videos on all of my other resources in trying and leverage. Read it and then hit it up on twitter and then constantly re tweet and then do all of that work to get that traffic to my youtube video then. Youtube is only video server hosting and I could probably do that on a number of different platforms or solutions I could host videos on twitch. They won't get viewed organically no-one searching for content like that on twitch but again if I'm having to spread the word myself then a a big part of that is GonNa be fixed with my own sweat with my own with my own hustle. It is going to be a change change in my platform by the end of next year. I want to Devalue Youtube as the sole place to watch my videos so not only for the livestream going to twitch and mixer here but also for the produced content that I make and I might just look at something like Archive Dot Org. Maybe I'll even like you know Public domain all of my videos. And you you WANNA cut it up and you want to do something wacky with the video. Great you WANNA download the video instead of just streaming it and you can see the full quality of that video without youtube compression Russian. Maybe that's what we do too. There are options. We need to stop pretending that. The benefits of Youtube Outweigh the competing options for hosting video on the Internet. Especially for those that aren't really getting to benefit from the platform platform. Youtube offers people that have million subscriber plus channels. Because I guarantee you. The Youtube mark apply has is completely different than the a youtube I have. So why play that game. Why pretend that that's the better outcome and eventually all get there now so I'm going to build it myself? I might as well build it for myself. We got a couple of other comments here From soulless part of the problem is that it feels like youtube twitching. Mix starting to do the same thing as the cable companies. Kinda getting in bed together. I don't necessarily see no. I agree with you first of all. Let me say that I agree with you I. It's not that I see them all working together. The other is that I see them making changes and then they're examining the changes at the other platform makes then the changes that are more financially beneficial. Obviously they're gonNA start trying trying to mimic those changes too so it becomes sort of guided market and we all eventually end up in sort of the same place but you know there are still some severely different philosophical Ideas behind twitching youtube and that you know mixer in Twitter Dr. You're going to be fighting harder in the real time streaming space. Youtube seems to have ceded most of their platforms advantages for. We're having a streaming service from Pakistan. Something similar should be done for the Youtube problem but it will take significant significant amount of time and none of this is going to happen overnight. All of this is going to take time but it won't happen at all until we start when we start making some changes to our behavior. That's when things will start to change when we wait for changes to happen. Those changes will never happen all all all all do something about youtube when someone else makes a perfect clone of Youtube. That does everything youtube can do in the they do a better and they give me more money. That's never gonNA happen as long as you give the giving all of your business to Youtube. Then the problem stays and fat wallet. Fat Produce Andrew Wallows He made it. I love it Let me take another step here. All right another frustrating story. Okay and I promise I will get through this one fast. This is a follow up to. I want to say in the early days of my podcast. I think think I did touch on this story because I was doing a lot of pr work with at and T.. Back in the day. This was especially like from the g to to the G. Chief Four era the LG to the L. G. G. Four era of phones up until like the Galaxy S. six right before I joined pocket now I had a friend that that worked for a small PR outlet and she did a lot of work with. At and T. and at. I don't believe treated them super great but It was A. It was a great sort of symbiotic relationship it was southern California tech reviewers were getting access to. At and T. stuff and it was really really really cool. Around that time we were also fighting those fights with net neutrality with throttling and with Data caps and the disclosure of how data networks work We we were just making the transition away from well you know. Here's your bucket of data and then you get charged per megabyte and we were starting to play play with rollover data and unlimited data again we used to have unlimited data then we moved to l. t. e. and then eighteen thought. It would be better to charge you for like two gigs of data. Every month is if you bought a flash drive and here's your two gigs and then when you're done we'll take what's left and you don't get anything back so there was a court or case that went up in two thousand fourteen and At and T. was accused of misleading consumers with unlimited unlimited data plans and this FTC. Investigation that has been pretty much ongoing since twenty eleven but the the main lawsuit took place in twenty fourteen eighteen and affected roughly four million. At and T. subscribers the FTC claims that people were doing business with at and not under false pretenses and that that was leading to consumer confusion situation. That's about the only thing. The FTC is good for is looking at the terms of service and seeing if a company violates their terms of service if at and T.. Had just been more forthright in how they were going to throttle or charge for data overages. There never would have been a court case. All they needed to do was say well. We say it's unlimited. But if you go over ten gigs one month you're GONNA get throttled problem solved solved. FTC can't do anything there. They fully disclosed everything they needed to to the consumer. They are doing business in a reputable way. So almost four million people affected A.. T. and T.'s. Fine for misrepresenting representing their network and misrepresenting their plans in twenty fourteen with problems dating all the way back to twenty eleven sixteen exte- million dollars sixty million I'm sure. At's GONNA learn their lesson on a sixty sixty million dollars for got hurt. That's got to sting. I mean if I go on Reddit and I look at the myriad number of people commenting on this like. There's this one guy here who is it. Mr Malware who broke down that a sixty million dollar fine as as compared to their gross profit over the last year is about five hours of. At and T.. Prophet so so they. They lost five hours of not revenue five hours of profit. If we like people are like oh sixty million dollars that's pocket change. If you made had fifty thousand dollars a year that would be like you getting fined seventeen dollars. I think what the heck until some A fine like that leveraged by the Regulatory Agency. That's supposed to be protecting Protecting US against Businesses not living up to their word to their claims their marketing claims until that actually hurts. Companies are going to keep doing business like that. That fine isn't even a tax like that's not GonNa Blip on a quarterly report when when they disclose their financials I as a shareholder. I'd be annoyed if they wasted my time to talk about this way. Or they they find you sixty million. You made that up five hours all right you you you cost me more money telling me about it. Then if you would just absorb the costs and moved on with the rest of the quarterly report. Like that's that's like Boeing Bite In the chat. That's like couch couch cushion. Change and and Yogi. Ah Ninety seven eight. What a slap on the wrist? Yeah Yeah Ah. There was no incentive with that for them to change their behavior and that's why we leverage find and especially knowing that for the three and a half four million people affected under this. FTC lawsuit that what twenty percent thirty percent of this of this legal victory are GonNa go directly to the lawyers. Fighting the case is going to be put into some kind of fund then people will get a check and it will take like thirty million dollars and will divide that by a I four million people. And that's how we'll we'll partition. Everyone gets like five box. Don't do justice. Justice has been served. You paid your at TNT bill and you probably got an average one hundred dollars one month because of the way that they do the data. Here's your check for your justice. I just like I. It's so so dumb so how does. At and T. celebrate. I'm sure they're talking about. It is if this this this hard loss in our corporation we're going to we're going to strive to do better for future. Can we're going to tell future eighteen thousand subscribers. Exactly how we're GONNA Gouge them because if you're on. At and T.. And you have an older plan like your plan is a little bit older. You might have just gotten a notification that eighteen eighteen is going to change your plan and they're gonNA raise your bill ten bucks a month automatically. They're gonNa do this for you and you. You can't do anything about it so this is coming by way. I forgot to detail who that last article was from it was from the associated oppressed by way of US News Dot Com and now by way of ARS TECHNICA AT and T. switches consumers to sorry. At and T.. Switches customers to more expensive plans without asking them. I it's a it's a benefit. They're just going to charge you more money and you'll get a little more data it's get fifteen gigabyte bonus if you're on an older plan so. At and T.. Adding ten dollars to the monthly bills of customers. Moore's with certain grandfathered mobile data plans and not letting them switch back to their older packages. At and T.. Is pitching the changes a bonus because it's also adding fifteen fifteen gigabytes to their customers. Monthly data allotment enjoy more data. At and T.. Says in support document starting with your October Twenty Nineteen Nineteen Bill. You'll get an increase in an additional fifteen gigabytes of data on your mobile share plan. This bonus data comes with a ten dollar price increase. And there's no no way to opt out. They just jacked your bill. But they did it for you. Because it's it's perk it's benefit great from fat produce this type of at and T.. Shenanigans Gins is why I'm glad I'm on cricket I get to use eighteen network and the reduced speeds are worth it to me to not be under eighteen t slave driver. Yoke for Mr Pulp. Fiction are their contracts in the the United States available without a four G. gigabyte limit. I don't believe that is the case anymore. I someone correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not very well versed on corporate plans like there might be but seeing as how even verizon throttled firefighters here last year in the middle of fire season because they were using using too much data. I don't think there are any consumer or business plans that are truly wide open. I think everything has some hard limit or some cap. And then they start slowing you down if not charging you more as Kinda why I stopped pretending I I'm on fi when on a pixel will Sprints coverage is not the best. But most of the time I'm just on T. Mobile's network and you you get billed for what you use. And in most of the time I stay under the The billing cap so I if you go up to ninety bucks a month based on how much data you use then it just becomes sort of an unlimited the plan after that but then if you go out to fifteen gigs they start to throttle you. So you get like four gigs of grace and then they slow you way down Most of the time. I don't think I've I don't think I've hit the CAP since my last international trip. So yeah when I was in Taiwan I wanted to back everything up and I just expected like this is going to be an expensive month. I'm just GONNA I'M GONNA use it and I think I beat the cap but I only went over like five hundred meg so it it was worth it because I had everything backed up. I had all my files. I was uploading all of my daily logs and videos and stuff like that. But I didn't go so over that I really got my money's worth from twenty miles. Nineteen nineteen seventy five. You can actually opt out by cancelling your. At and T.. Hey podcast listeners. I work really hard to find mutually beneficial ways to support production on my various distribution platforms instead of just running ads on this podcast in hoping they don't annoy you. I WANNA find products or services that you really will get something out of and that can help fund and my production while I do doc about some of those items in ads throughout this podcast. I've never created one easy view master list of my current partnerships. Tips until now. Sorry I couldn't help myself if you'd like to help. Contribute support production of this podcast in my various videos and reviews head on over to some Gadget Gadget Guy Dot com at the top. There's going to be a link for support some gadget guy and you can see what my current partnerships are at the time this podcast was recorded in addition to my patriot and my audible campaign. I can hook you up with a twenty dollar voucher. If you're shopping new one plus or you can grab a ton hon of great video games for cheap with humble bundle monthly. I also have a teaser. Image on that page for my upcoming mega pickle Michael Coffee Mug which will hopefully be available for purchase soon. Some Gadget Guy Dot com link at the top of the site. Support some gadget guy and hopefully you'll find something something cool something you might like while also kicking me a little extra scratch of people talking about some of the five developments and stuff like that. Mr Pulp Fiction here in Europe. It's thirty eero for unlimited four G.. Prepaid no contract Yeah yeah the the carrier stranglehold that we have here in the United States and the competing technologies all deliver the same functionality. It's GonNa be a while. I mean there are definitely some additional costs when we look at how big and wide and spread out the United States is is but then we also have to acknowledge that a lot of this was built on tax. Payer funds sweetheart deals rezoning and public infrastructure anyway so allowing them to profit like this is frustrating because we should have to regulatory agencies that can actually affect some change at the corporate level right now the FCC is completely toothless Hoopla and the FTC. They're doing their job. But that's the limit to which they can do their job so it would be nice if we had anyone else in the government and right now actually trying to fight for end users and not just rolling over for Mega Corporations Twenty Miles nineteen seventy five. We have a thirty gigabytes data pool. But it's for five lines including two eighteen year olds. Who are doing ish all day on their phones? Yikes that's pretty tough. Yogi nine ninety seven. Oh eight damn the mobile data plans. Excuse me mobile. Data plans in the. US are expensive in my country. You get around twenty Gig of Lt data around ten bucks. Yeah Y- I mean an average month for me is around forty and I might use two Gigs of mobile data. And I'm I kinda liked the challenge of hunting for Wi fi like I've always been that guy who liked war driving anyway but you know there's also the if I can save money I'll try and save money and you know that's kind of where we're stuck right now here in the United States one last story and we're going to get to the To the plug. Let me Let me copy this out. Come on Web Browser copy the address. I gotta find a better way like what I should do. Is is copy the stuff in plain taxed because the the chat gets rural. Slow once I start like copying links and I haven't been able to figure out Y. Let's get that sent. I'm going to reset the the chat here real fast so things to be concerned concerned about news block super frustrating. This story isn't going to be any better We as technological enthusiasts as techies as tech fans techiques tech nerds and especially as being fairly the international. I I one of the reasons why I like hosting this is a livestream is getting some viewpoints. That aren't just North American centric. We can learn a lot from each other especially we can learn a lot about what not to let our politicians do We're going to be running into some major cultural clashes in the coming years as governments. Start to examine how other governments handle handle the data the security in the privacy of their citizens. This is going to be a very difficult conversation for us to have as we look at mixed the markets and how we do business internationally through humongous data centric corporations that have their own interests that don't always align with local governments so a company might be an American company but they have a headquarters. Here's in Ireland to dodge taxes and then they dumped money in the Cayman Islands so they don't even have to pay Ireland the taxes they weren't GonNa pay to the United States but they're made made in America one of the other conflicts and this is a sensitive one because there are very different and cultural Moors between us and say the people of China there again. I mentioned it last week on the show. There's a phenomenal national documentary. That I completely forgot to look up the name of but it's a glass manufacturing plant that gets bought out by a Chinese corporation and there's this huge huge culture clash between what the Chinese expect of workers and Labor on the ground versus what Americans expect for compensation and and Lifestyle and this is going to be a very difficult fight to fight so when I see a story like this this is coming by wave. CNN Not always the best outlet for covering tech China fears. Young people are addicted to video games. Now it's Imposing a curfew written up by Eric Chung out of Hong Kong China has announced a curfew on online gaming for minors among new measures aimed at curbing video game addiction the official official government guidelines will be applied to all online gaming platforms operating in the country most notably ten cents. The world's biggest gaming company under new rules gamers aged under eighteen will be banned from playing online games between ten PM and eight. AM on weekdays. Minors can only play for ninety minutes while they may pay up to three hours per day on weekends and public holidays. I come from a very western in perspective. A very liberal Western perspective. I have a very hard time with that idea. I disagree with a state run government being able to interfere with with how apparent might decide to raise their child. There is a kernel of concern for parents who might not be able to keep up with the modern social pressures of a plugged in society. I think we see the effects of that here. In the United States as I said I think we definitely see the effects of that worldwide. But I still don't believe that grants the state's special permissions to to insinuate themselves in between parent and child. Obviously this is a complicated spectrum of gray because I have sort of advocated for other situations where the government might get involved that I'm sure other people disagree with me like blue boxes. I believe Lou boxes or gambling and I don't believe that parents are equipped to fully to fully examine and educate their children on all the ramifications of addictive behavior. And if the video game industry doesn't do a better job of properly age rating adding things like blue boxes and and gambling mechanics. Then I do believe that the government would need to get involved so this is why I you know I. I find myself in that conflicted space if there is a concern over addictive behavior on online entertainment one of the resources sources we have at our disposal at our disposal to address that is government action. But what I see and what I see here with the Chinese Solution Lucien the feels overly punitive and very aggressive and. I don't know that I would ever. I agree with that. Level of direct action control and manipulation of the populace. I I don't I don't know what what helps us fix. Is this problem. I if we can point to what the problem might be i. I don't know what corrective action would be appropriate. I don't believe this is the right. Corrective action from Solis. Geek to my mind should be the parents responsibility. from Boeing by. I'm GonNa need to let this up. It sounds like Korea's gaming curfew law but a bit crazier I don I don't know because again I mean like South Korea's like one one of the originators predators of the East sports. I temple eastport community that we understand it today from twenty nineteen seventy-five. I'm with you man. I know it's not my place to criticize other governments and cultures but no way I'd ever be okay with that level of oversight and control and Sam and I just had a conversation like this is something that I'm very concerned about is. How do I introduce gaming my daughter? She's been allowed to play a couple of PBS Games for very very brief periods of time. While I'm using the phone with her or sitting with her and she seen what was the first The first one was so because I still don't have an intendo switch really need to get an intense which The first game that I think my daughter actually paid attention to marina playing was the crash. Bandicoot Kart Racer total knock off of Mario Kart but with crash bandicoot characters actors instead of Mario and Nintendo characters but she saw us playing that and she wanted to race with us and I sat her in my lap and she hadn't yet turned four and I had her move move. The joysticks and I was pushing the buttons and it was it. Was this lovely moment. Like it's a social game with a social component and we all played it together as a family and Sam him in in our in our discord sharing a very similar story with. Wow and how his family got interested in playing a MMORPG's that's in my brain like that's got to be a major part of. The Solution is interaction and education occasion and sharing these experiences. But again I I would worry that a state sponsored curfew on that would maybe get in the way of how I would want to express. Gaming is a culture in gaming a lifestyle to to my daughter and and really highlight the types of experiences that I think are valuable and try and steer her or away from some of the experiences that I find predatory from fat produce the problem with these sorts of laws is that even if the government at present is benign in. It's intentions that doesn't mean that in the future the government couldn't turn militias with this sort of control and then also I. It speaks to some of the cultural issues that that I think we're GonNa have hard conversations about when it comes to things like how has a population of people being observed. Because I think if you were going to try and enact enact something similar here in the United States it would be fairly. Toothless of you're under eighteen can play these games. Well we know there are a bunch of ten year olds fragging folks in very mature games that they shouldn't be allowed to play. We have this whole licensing thing. It's rated M. rated adults only and we know. Oh kids are playing those games too so here in the United States from a Western perspective like okay. Yeah make that law. But no one's GonNa follow it and it's not really going to be possible to enforce it and I think one of the things that makes me so uncomfortable about the Chinese approaches. They probably have better tools to observe and enforce and that's definitely something. I don't want to have happen here. Oh if you don't have anything to hide why would you be afraid of letting the government watch everything you do because of stuff like this because of how they can then start to manipulate. And to enforce what content I'm allowed to interact with and what content I can share with my kids. I'm not doing anything illegal. But they could still make my behavior undesirable undesirable. And that makes me very anxious about how we're going to cross pollinate different ideas of of privacy and security and government policy. Let's see for the greater good of our community and it's tough Solis Geek this. I mean I mean this is great I let my grandson play top down runners as a reward because it helps hand eye coordination twitch games you know again like I almost want to like make my daughter grow up in gaming the way I did so like Lex. If you WANNA play games at your friends are playing. You gotTa start with the Atari when you can beat everything I'd be on the Atari then I'll let you play contra but I mean like my my mom can still kick my ass in a game like tempest like it's not even close and I am so lucky that I get to have that as a multigenerational approach like my mom flew out here southern California to do a mother's Day special where we had tetris Chris showdown and she still almost crushed me. I was training to hang with her and it was close. Ah I want to be able to share that with my daughter. That's going to be really valuable to me. And I kinda don't want anyone in my way Twenty Miles nineteen seventy five. I was in television in Nineteen seventy-nine hug I'm old Solis Geek. We're starting to get some controls with things like mesh networks able to kill individual devices and some family stuff built into operating systems. But I don't think it needs to go further than that. We just need to educate the parents about those options that I am the sea. And that's that's why I hope we can have more tech philosophy. Fi kinds of conversations media literacy Education for people who aren't in the scene lapsed gamers like maybe you grew up playing being Nintendo maybe you stopped playing Super Nintendo and then when your kids are getting into gaming you think it's still kinda like Nintendo in. The gaming industry industry is moved on from there. And that's where I feel like we've maybe let down the normies. We haven't really brought them along for the ride on this stuff so so Because this podcast is always running long and I and again I appreciate you all all so much because this was a a very frustrating news block to put together especially because we talked about the news for an hour. And I'd like to cover or some other fun stuff instead Mr Pulp Fiction did you want. Did you play on the Sega dreamcast so I did not own one. But dreamcast cast was end of High School Early College for me and I used to game on my friends so much and I wanted one so bad and I could never afford Lord one actually throughout most of that I had finally built up a PC. That was decent enough to play. Like Games like Diablo and in that late high high school early college I almost ruined my entire life on Diablo. Two people talk about wow addiction. I was grotesquely. Technically overweight I was failing out of my classes. I was not eating. Well I was not sleeping at all and for like a good solid. Alad Year of Diablo two. I was the poster child of. Hey parents don't let your kids play video games. I think a lot of us have to run into one of those situations and then pull ourselves out of it so that we get a sense of. This is what I love about this. This is what I'm passionate about. These are also the the controls that I need to put on myself so that I know not to let that happen ever again but again because I had put so much money into to a PC and that was for school and for work and for gaming I unfortunately had zero disposable income for other I mean I went a long time I was gonNA say from N.. Sixty four to. Wow it was sixty four to playstation three. Uh before I owned a game console again. It was a big window and actually I probably wouldn't have gotten the playstation three if if my wife hadn't needed a playstation for work because again it's a work device tax. Write off right quick plug. It's not going to be quick. I'm going to try and make it quick but you know it's GonNa take a while We spent a lot of time. This podcast talking about Youtube. The problems on Youtube AH challenges for Youtube content creators and there is something we can do as viewers if we are fans of content if we are fans of channels the best thing we can do is organically participate and share and contribute to those channels Outside outside of leading the algorithms try and do all the heavy lifting for us one solution. I hope you consider the the thing that I made A. I made a thing and I'm trying to put my money where my mouth is every podcast. You you listen to likely has some kind of celebrate Sometimes the substrates are there to have the people tell them how clever and awesome they are sometimes et Cetera et cetera there to share news stories my sub read. It is a way to celebrate people you you think deserve more attention. It could be a smaller content creator really trying to get their numbers up for to monetize channel. It could be a blogger and editorialist Corio l'est a writer but something in the tech community. The the only rule is it's gotta be vaguely tech or can also be someone who is an established it commentator but maybe they aren't doing water. They aren't getting as much as a as much attention as they deserve. I'm I've talked about numerous examples in previous Previous podcasts so the project that I put together a two thousand fourteen I put together a celebrate it and that failed miserably an over this last year I've tried to do a better job of highlighting it and building it up but it's reddit dot com slash are slash glowing rectangles I'm dropping the Lincoln here so that you guys can can check it out. If you want to self promote your own videos you can share your own videos. It's usually a big no no. Oh On. Reddit I want people to find new content but mostly more than anything else. We need your comments. We need your up votes oats and we want to see if we can turn this into a community that helps elevate channels. That deserve more attention. So if something's popular on arguing rectangles it's got a better chance it's of hitting a larger sub reddit or finding a bigger community and getting shared and spread. And that's what a true viral success really is not just I kind of had some popular keywords in my video on Youtube and then Youtube promoted it for a hot minute and then youtube destroyed my channel metrics. When my next video wasn't as popular you go to your youtube feed? You're going to see sort of a homogeneous of topics it's going to be a very limited focus of what's the most popular. What's it's trending? And what's hot if you go to read it. Dot Com slash are slash glowing rectangles. And you've never been before guarantee you you're gonNA find someone you've never seen you're gonna GonNa see a broader variety of community discussion. You're going to see a broader variety of different viewpoints different regions different reviewers different editorialists. You're gonNA find someone and you're GonNa find someone you didn't know about and you're gonna like the stuff that they make but if you want them to keep making stuff we've gotta help. We've got to be active participants. We can't just passively view and go who was cool. I hope to make another video. Give them a share. Give them a tweet. Give him an up. Vote wrote some mouse or touchscreen. Interaction is going to help so much for someone who's building a channel or someone WHO's trying to sustain gene channel so these are the top stories on arguing rectangles this week I'M GONNA go back into screener but I like the first one. We don't have to spend too much time on because this guy occasionally makes it on the list and I think we would all agree that if you were to meet this guy in person you would walk away from the encounter going man man. That guy's got a punishable face and I hate his hats but the the number one video is the one plus seventy review by some GAGIC I. It's very rare that I topped the charts on my own sub reddit but apparently this video was enjoyed. The second video is the person. I'm feuding with this week. Take the knock down drag out fight over Networking but his video on the Exodus Exodus Ninety versus Exxon owes ninety eight thirty versus exodus. Nine Eighty Gary explains and you should definitely be giving area follow if you like explained videos that are are worth actually explaining so much of tech. Youtube explained videos are not worth explaining. Bluetooth explained need. And then they get a bunch of stuff wrong when gary explain something and got a lot of negative comments when I shared That editorial that I wrote about networking benchmarking a lot of people on the Internet. Do not like it when someone who is actually woolley knowledgeable chips away at some of the preconceived ideas we have about technology. I love Gary. Because he's actually very engaging being a friendly educator but he's not going to sugar coat when people have relied on faulty reasoning reasoning or bad ideas to talk about tech so especially like when he went after APP speed runs. I could've kissed that man on the mouth because they're popular Karen. They're fun to watch. But they're very poor testing for any kind of real world phone performance. So again. Then if you want explained videos on topics that are worth explaining. You GotTa give Gary a follow From 'cause IAGO from 'cause Zia Gizo cut caused Jegouzo on on the periscope Gary is awesome really informative and TD Hill Some punishable Wolfe's guy. Hashtag has a thing for Gary Guy I absolutely do. And lastly Again this is just like my my my list of bromance channels for the third spot. Tk My Bay teekay takes a look at the twenty nineteen Nvidia Shield TV TV pro top five things to do when you get it. It's a tips and tricks video looking at how to set that up the Nvidia Shield TV. Tk's my buddy tk's Mabro again We were both looking out for each other here in southern California. He was texting me during those last round round two fires. I was texting him on the fires before. Really good guy I mean just just a really good guy and again just as a general trend He's a guy that takes his process in his method very seriously so You know he got. He built up his rap going through developers and and Doing things like flashing and digging deep into the software on different phones and it's a reputation. Well deserved that. You can trust what what. Tk has to say about any gadget. He might get his hands on boing by Hashtag. Tk My day they totally has it no Hashtag. Tk Our bay. Twenty Miles nineteen seventy-five Sariwon. Tk is ours to share. Yeah I stand well deservedly corrected. Tk Our bay From from Casiraghi Zo. Tk's is very knowledgeable. FDA rules spent a big chunk of this weekend on XTA trying to get my at and T. L. G. thirty flashed over because AT&T was terrible for supporting that phone For Mr Pulp Fiction where you a monitor on developers. So I've been getting a little bit more into it. It just because of the number of phones I get that don't seem to have good carrier support for updates and I've gotta find ways to get around the lack of carrier career update to get the phone properly updated to what the manufacturer put out. LG is the best example of that where the L. V. Thirty Pie update is really good but only a handful of LG thirty users got it because of terrible policy by carriers like at and T.. I was WOJ more into modding and roaming and flashing back in the Windows Mobile Days I actually used to hold records for over clocking ipaq. PDA's way back in the day. I don't do it as much anymore. Now it's an out of necessity and trying to check out other things thanks to like. I've got a couple of old. HDC's and I want to see how lineage has has aged on those older phones. Because I feel like an HTC Ma would probably still be a fine daily driver with a great headphone Jack for someone today if it had any kind of up to date. Software is my hypothesis. So that's that's the plug ready dot com slash art slash glowing rectangles. Please give it a follow. Check it out We as a tech viewing community can do more to help make sure that we are getting the the best quality and diversity of content that we want if we let Youtube decide for us that only four or five tech commentators are worth subscribing to then then tech commentary gets really boring and the tech landscape gets really dull so again Ready Dot com slash slash glowing. rectangles is my personal platform armed to try and put my money where my mouth is to try and improve that situation for everyone who wants to participate from trained nine one. Six th wasn't the eight and a snapdragon eight phone it was not the HTC one. M A was an eight. Oh five I believe. I don't think it was eight hundred. I want to say it was a NATO five m. nine was a snapdragon eight ten an and that was way worse so the one M nine and the L G G flex to got wrecked by the snapdragon eight ten when I was a terrible chipset in the eight. Oh eight was only marginally better owner okay. Fat Produce. The was an eight. Oh one not in eight. Oh five okay. So it was an eight zero one eight eight oh five much better performers than the eight ten and yet from twenty miles nineteen seventy five. The M nine is garbage. It's real bad. Few phones run as hot and his terribly as a as any of the snapdragon tens all right so That wraps us up on all of the news and all the plugs. I didn't get a chance to talk about it last week because our show ran stupid long last week and this this is going to go over the two hour mark this week because I want to catch up on one phone. We didn't talk about and then talk about one phone. I just I started using and then talk about one phone that I just got and I'm going to start using and then as WanNa do some mailbag so mailbag posts. So I want to start off what we missed. Last week was the L. G. G.. Eight x lots of videos already. Come out lots reviews of already. PUT It out there. I need to open it back up and log back in and the dual screen is off for some reason but dual screen fulling phones if you're a a multitasking nerd. I if this is something where you're looking at how to maximize and expand on the ability ready to coordinate and have different things happening on your phone at the same time. This has been a really interesting phone to dive into I. I've I already put out a video showing the The refinements so I got to spend time with the South Korean. LG Fifty dual screen and end. There's a lot that's improved on the experience here for the g eight ax go catch that video. I have a bad habit of regurgitating talking points in in my podcast video. Going to put it together for you faster than if I just talk about it here. But we've got a good pallet. We've got the ability to split screen and dual screen different APPS and at its core. We still have an L. G. G. eight style experience. So you've got the dual rear cameras. You've got the absolutely a phenomenal best in class. Headphone Jack Again. If you care about your ears and you want the best variety of audio listening experiences is available to you. Unfortunately or fortunately if you're a fan of their hardware but unfortunately. LG is the only game in town. Even Samsung is walking taking away from one of the most universally useful ports that we can have on a phone and again. You might think that we don't need it but you're wrong so one of the major takeaways again. I've seen this mentioned on other videos to one of the things that I I wasn't quite prepared for. I didn't know this was going to be a part of the G. Eight ax is this is l.. Jeez new UI and this is going to be a major part of my review here because I think LG puts out some of the worst Ui in all of of mobile phone. Damn I a door. LG Hardware and as soon as I get an phone. I put Nova launcher launch. You're on it and I pretend that. LG didn't make a terrible terrible terrible on so This is l. new you I and I don't know what what do you guys think do you. Do you notice any similarities with maybe another South Korean manufacturer like when you pull this notification shade and all of your shortcuts and quick actions. Go all the way down to the bottom chin or like when you pull up your settings and they're sort of divided in these fun bubbly little settings in containers. I did notice that that that that's similar to another one or the way that we still have the vertical swipe on the on the APP drawer. or which then turns into horizontal swipes for your APPs. I mean just I. Is anyone noticing some similarities. In design is at is that a AH anything is registering A. This feels very Samsung to me. I am not the biggest fan of Samsung's. Ui their new UI. Samsung U. I.. X or whatever they're calling it So so again I mean like I have the same concerns and criticisms I don't like overly bubbly lots of wasted space like when I pull up a settings my my settings on the phone and I want a small stack list of all of my settings in one easy to see screen view. I don't want big bubbly friendly. He space wasting settings that I scroll through and I have to try and find like what's the icon that's GonNa take me to this menu that then it's going to open up this setting then I can alter alter One of the things I really do like about like stock. Ao S. P. android is. It's just text in buttons. It's not trying in to hold your hand through that kind of stuff so it's a it's funny because on the one hand this is not A. Ui that I enjoy. I'm still probably going to put Nova launcher on the main LG phone. It doesn't try to Nova launcher entre. Doesn't know to use the second screen so you'll have like a weird like split. Ui and it'll work for me. Because I'm that door goodbye but I wouldn't recommend other people do it but I don't like Samsung's. Ui at the same time. If you have been using algae devices I kind of feel like this is going to be a huge improvement over L. G. Stock Software again if you're on. LG's Ui and and you haven't installed and other launcher Microsoft Launcher Nova launch. or any of the other solutions there Then yeah I think you're going to dig this. I think this is going to be a welcome improvement improvement over what you've been using in the past so it's just is just kind of funny that again it it can still be an improvement for so many people and for me. It's definitely not what I would like to use the phone from fabrics. I'm super interest. To hear your thoughts on the phone. To software in comparison to the one plus LG et Cetera. Et CETERA. So Let's see Mr Pulp. Fiction in stock android is a little bit boring. The thing is I as I've gotten older I'm not looking for the phone to entertain being me. I I mean I'm Kinda like I definitely jive with like old school. Steve Jobs some of the commentary he I used to have about the phone getting out of your way the phone itself. I want that to blend into the background. And I want the services I use on the phone to be front and center so when the UI starts getting bubbly and and friendly and hand hand holding an extra menus and we've organized this and look at what your APP Stu innocent the scrolling really nifty less and less. Do I enjoy the way that like. I'm I'm increasingly of the mind. The phone should be as boring as possible so that I can do the fun things I wanted to on the phone. And that's not gonNA before everybody I that is my solo and solitary opinion on the matter. Other people absolutely lutely will disagree with me and that may be transitions and animations and and the way that the phone sort of reveals that to you could be part of the entertainment and part of the value of owning a phone for me like more than anything else. I start disabling stuff. Even animated wallpaper sometimes like Nope I give. Give me a blue gradient. Actually I ended up doing here Yeah just blue gradient and and no interesting background because I want nothing nothing to compete with the shortcuts on my phone or the widgets that I might use like. I want my eight to be drawn as efficiently as possible to the thing that I want to do next on the phone like again. I'm getting kind of severe but part of this is because I also have to the handle so many different phones in you eyes and operating systems and software gets messy when you're flipping your phone every month so The the thing that I think has been kind of interesting as people have been used to wallet style cases right you go out in public and you'll see people the other kind of using their phone like this like it's a little book so this doesn't scream. It doesn't advertise. It doesn't do a good job of broadcasting that there's anything different happening here but I've gotten a number of real world interactions Kinda like back when I was using the honore that someone notices that. Oh the phone is doing something different if they happen to peek over the my shoulder what I think is kind of funny is one of the the more telling experiences I let my wife take this to work because she had a CO worker occur who was considering buying the tax she was thinking maybe i WanNa Pixel and I want to keep it simple or maybe I want something really cool and when she put this phone in in her coworkers hands after about ten minutes. She wasn't really digging the second screen experience that it was super cool. It was way more functional. There was all this stuff that she could do and she just really didn't like wallet. Style interactions like. Oh every time I need to do something on the phone. I'm going to need to open this and then unlock it with like an in display thumbprint. That's Oh that might interrupt my day more than if I just had a regular phone. So that's going to be one of the interesting things. I think to to follow a track as we get into folding phones as we get into more modular devices the daily maintenance in the in the hand maintenance I think is is GonNa be a tough thing for some consumers to figure out I know for a fact that a not insignificant perfect number of g eight x consumers are going to use this for a couple of days just like they got it because you got the second screen for free. Then they're going to say you you know what. Let me. Just try what it's like using the phone as a regular phone and then we're going to see a bunch of g eight axes in just regular cases. I don't I don't know if it's going to be most most I don't know if it's GonNa be some but a not insignificant number of G. Eight acts owners are going to end up here. Just it's like a number of note consumers will probably never pull the ESPN after the initial novelty of trying out in Aspen. There's a part of this that I think I hope we can study that. We pay attention to where this is really cool and this is really fun. But from Mr Pulp Fiction. I always. I'm using always a black wallpaper all paper on my phone. I usually do just straight black. Now he kind of just like a little bit of a gradient so if it's black to grey or it's blue to black or something like that I like having a little bit of Like having a little bit of a shift from Hud was hero. Slide out screen could be neat. Yeah I like the idea of of rigid displays. I'm still not sold on foldable plastic displays. But something like that could be cool and again I. I wouldn't mind having an option. Another another mainstream option for a sliding keyboard. Lord there's something really cool about having one whole screen for your content and then the second hold screen for inputting text or inputting content. That's really nice I I again is. There's so much more room so much more space for activities city's Move Right along okay. So G. Eight X. I have the second screen video out. Now I'M GOING TO BE A. I'm going to be wrapping up a review but I I think I'm also going to do just a quick tangent video. Oh the G. eight x versus the old school G. Eight because adding the second screen changes a lot on the phone own so I feel like I was writing out the full review as like I could just do like a little quick part of my review will be a back and forth comparison and and then that ended up being like four minutes of me talking all on its own so instead of putting in a four minute comparison in a review. I'm just GONNA make it a separate video so that's GonNa be out this week. I don't know if I'm going to be done with the full review for this phone this week or if it's going to be out next week but it'll be out soon and Spoilers it's pretty positive most most of this is done really well and for a very specific consumer out there. This is going to be an amazing experience ends and even for general consumers. It's a great bang for buck. So until you can see the full pros and cons in all of my criticisms and and appraise. That's at least where we can start the discussion. There Mr Pulp Fiction. Do you try to hide the. What's your wallpaper? When I'm using the phone I try and go back to just a regular forehead when I'm showing the phone off in a review I try to use? Who's notches and wallpaper? So you can see the notch So you can actually see what the dimensions of the screener. But even when I try to hide the notch you can't really hide it. It's always always there and when you full screen. Certain videos are certain games that cuts into the content. It's not as bad as an iphone. But it's still the notches such a dumb Adaptation to disrupt the display to include a crappy Webcam. So I duNno Moving right along. Okay Solis Geek. Can you verify that. There's no quad doc in the G eight series. Now the quack is in the I don't know about the g eight ASP but it's in the g eight and the tax here. Let me just open. It might need to get some headphones to plug in here. I'm get my monitors. I think these will clear the case is will they. Yeah pardon the interruption here but I need to plug in other podcast. I'm working on with my buddy. Andrew the Geek Book Club is a monthly podcast which is also also an online book club which should not come as a surprise given the name of the podcast we pick a book we read it and then we talk about it and you can also join the conversation if you want a good geeky chat about your favorite Geek Literature. Join Andrew Wallace and I every month on the Geek Book Club available on Itunes Google play. Hey and other fine podcasting services settings Let me just pull it out of the case. That is one of the bombers. Catch that in the case video. This is amazing audio podcasting x Three d surround sound and Hifi Quad. Dak at the bottom. Right there what since the G. Seven all even international g series phones have had the quad. Dak that hasn't changed uh-huh huddles hero. She'll out some. Em's well I love my me audio and Kesar pretty good and I apparently ten audio radio or great and CCA CCA make some great Ear Buds to and then all of the mainstream manufacturers to you can't go wrong with shores or sennheiser 's or any of them other their players how many am's do. I have too many to count. Just the me audio lineup alone I have seen a five five pairs of. Im's from me audio. Two pairs of nobles. Those nobles are old like I used to use as those onset So what that would have been. I've been using those since two thousand fourteen twenty thirteen my shores. I or even the older one fifteen in the two fifteens I'm missing some like. I've got some other pro options in there too. Oh my Eddie's asked how to prevent At AMATA Eddie. I call them at ease because I can't say the company name so yeah lots of lots of different options but today now our recently I mean I also Got Sim God's got echoes And more let's let's let's let's shift over the other phone. That is kinda taken me a again. I just I'm a fan of Sony. I feel like Sony. Lg both got done wrong this year by a lot of the tech commentators out there finally get into break out the experience five. It's the smaller. Friendlier version of the experienced. One it does not have the U.. HD resolution display. This is a twenty-one by nine ten eighty ADP panel but it's a very good Ten Eighty P a lead but it is one of the few new phones to offer a true premium professional camera mode so being able to like fire up a phone camera which looks a lot and functions a lot like a Sony. Venice like a production grade camera in how it handles shutter your speed and how it handles white balance how it handles focus and something that they didn't have on the exterior one. Which I maybe we'll come come in a software? Update is one of my favorite features on a on. A phone is a programmable rack. Focus so you you put in your close focus and you put in your focus kissing you tell it. How long do you want the rack to take? And then when you're recording you just push a button there and it goes Zouk and it locks on the focus and then you push another button and goes Zouk Zouk and it locks you back and it's so smooth its own well. There's no reason why phones shouldn't have this this kind of functionality. If the argument is you can really make things with your premium phones. So over the Friday I I didn't get to go on on Saturday but Sony was running event at Sammy's cameras here in southern California and it was mostly focused on Sony Alpha so like their mirror. Less cameras cameras interchangeable lens systems professional grade cameras for still and for video but I went and did some of the workshops. It was a it was a lot of fun one. The workshops actually did talk about making films on experience phones. And so it's it's a new project. I'M GONNA give it a shot while I still have this phone. I probably won't need to send this back to Sony at some point but the guy running. That workshop is a cinematographer. He's worked with James Cameron and he's done a bunch of feature films. He's done a lot of even just like low budget indie stuff off and he pulls out his Experi one and it's got this giant step up ring cutout in the case that he can attach nd filters one one of the problems with the phone cameras. It's really hard to control light and keep your shutter speed the same. And so that's GONNA be my my next project. I WANNA find a way. How can I make a filter like an actual camera filter snoot screw on to To my phone so that was one of the takeaways from from doing all these workshops. This is like oh now. I've got a project I kind of want to see like. Is this something I can really do on a phone and make it work and and start producing maybe start producing even more content from phones but early impressions on the Experience Five. I really liked the EXPERI. One there are a few compromises in using being a you. Hd displayed phone with Sony always putting in the smaller battery so they they can attain this. You know two thousand one on space. Oddity Odyssey monolith thin kind of build quality like every time I put this up in stander prop it up on my desk. I expect little monkeys to like like start throwing bones at it as it then teaches us how to evolve. It's a monolith but I used it all day Sammy cameras I got about four. Okay so let me just break down the numbers this is. What's going to be in the review on the exterior five? The first day I had it I didn't didn't fully set it up. I had to set it up on on Lt. So it's hitting the cell network harder usually setup over Wifi. I took it off the charger at six. Am Friday Friday morning. And I did not plug it back in until I got a low battery warning the next day at around one pm so it went from. I'm six am Friday morning all day at Sammy's camera shooting a couple little snippets of video doing a ton of social social media. I was on twitter in discord and doing checking my email all day long. I didn't plug it in overnight so it discharged about four percent overnight night while I slept and then I ran it the same again in ninety degree heat while I was shooting on the Pixel Four for my camera review this was my actual phone and it went all the way up till around one pm where I got the low battery warning at thirteen percent battery. Yeah Sony could use bigger batteries. Is that really going to be a problem. No the experience five was a a plenty capable daily driver phone and I have high hopes that Sony experience will age gracefully because of the way that Sony has put in their stamina mode owed and they have a special battery conditioning mode. That doesn't trickle. Charge your phone all night. So I'm early impressions using it over the weekend end very positive very much enjoyed what the experience was able to do out in the field and the camera is phenomenal. The camera APP is it's true. Pro Grade Camera is a true pro grade camera APP. I haven't found anything that would say. Oh Sony should stop making phones and this is exactly the kind of experiment and the change that I would like to see and plus. It's just nice having a phone. That's not ridiculously wide. So you know. We're we're making fun of Sony for twenty one by nine but Samsung's or nineteen point five by nine. LG's some of the nineteen important point five by nine. The one plus seventy which gets great scores for screen and Usability as twenty by nine. And we're pretty sure that next year Samsung is. He's going to move to a twenty by nine phone also so from twenty by nine. That's amazing twenty-one by nine Oh that's terrible I know I like it. I like it a lot and especially when you watched again while traveling I did get to do like one short little trip with the experienced experience one and I was watching classic movies. Like those little Pan Affleck's Panavision Wide Wide Wide Vistas and that screen is so good and even films aren't shot wide like that if the framing is good it looks amazing on the exterior one so I think a good example as aliens when you watch the movie aliens. It's closer to sixteen by nine. That's the full frame. But when you fill the screen and twenty one nine James Cameron Cinematography. She holds up in that crop. And it's perfectly framed to follow you to twenty one by nine so then it's filling the whole phone with with aliens the screen. It's great. I mean it's it's really nice so This is GonNa be the next full review process. I'm GonNa be doing the audio tests the speaker tests. I'm not GonNa do a full deep dive camera review because the camera system and Sony even set like. I did a conference call with Sony and they were like well. No it's it's exactly the same as the one but the experience five is running newer software than what's currently out for the one so it'll be a little bit more like the addendum that I did for the fifty fifty and for the one plus seven. T samples are going to be largely the same but some new features are coming that we should talk about because if you care about trying to make something mobile Sony and L. G. are really the top games in town right now very very good stuff very very happy so Let me scroll down here. from Tyler experienced one is the flagship experience. Five is mid range. But what are Sony going to do. After the flagship pits Sony experience for I know I would say experience. One and five are the flagships. I mean this is still an eight hundred dollar phone so it's not cheap cheap What was experienced ten was the mid range and then there was another way? I mean again Sony. Not the best at naming their products Gary the firemen. What about moment and mister pulp fiction? Open camera so here's I I would put that question right back out to you. Let me show you on the an-and the experience five. I Open my camera APP so again I have full control over ISO shutter speed white balance and and I can manually rack. Focus when you use open camera or moment or film IC filmmakers another other pretty good third party camera APP. Can you control all of those settings with very similar color science on all three lenses on a phone so if I want to control shutter speed white balance for the ultra wide I set it. And there's the ultra wide and then this is also shooting. They call it. HDR But it's really more what does that hse but again sort of like a high dynamic range but not hd are super juicy. They use the Venice color science which is pulled directly out of the Venice Camera. It's shooting an H.. Dot Six five so it's super high quality video radio at a smaller file size and you get all of that control over all three lenses with software stabilization but the phone only shoots up to thirty frames per second second so it cinema based this is not is not like Mojo this is this is if you WanNa make a movie this would be I I think one of the first phones to recommend this or Avi series. LG Like it's it's right up there. But Yeah I am just insane. Dynamic namic range full control over all three camera. Sensors the ability program Iraq focus. I mean Third Party Camera APPs get us a lot closer take to fully realizing that. But they don't always land the full the full way to to I'm channel Sony. LG Well I know a particular youtuber films in eight K.. Oh Eight K. when we're still waiting for everyone to catch up on four K's From trae nine one six scaling the text size way up on a narrow phone makes tex-mex messaging joke. See I kinda like having the taller screen though because every vertical APP that you use has more room to use it so like when I'm when I'm using an experience I go through like read it like there's a ton of stuff there. I like having this layout for vertical APP better than sixteen by nine and especially for how easy it is to to reach into interact and to use like these like side screen gestures and they actually do have that little shrink one-handed mode. I mean you don't really need it because the phone is so narrow even my stomach thumbs can can reach this phone but it's actually there are a lot of A lot of perks to twenty one by nine when you're are using it on portrait based APPS it's it's different but that doesn't necessarily mean it's bad I'm from fat produce. I still wish that we would see android. Oem Start to support plugging in your phone via USB to become your computer's Webcam that would be really cool again. I'm still shocked that like we have to jump through so many hoops and services to make that happen but I mean it makes sense because the USB protocol for phones is MTV EP. I don't know that it would be easy to shift it so that the phone would show up as a camera device in not a mass storage device and then how consumers would get confused when all a plug. My phone didn't work minimum. Webcam started doing stuff. I get it but I agree with you. I would like to have that functionality. Mr Pulp Fiction. Imagine one filming bids in twenty one by nine. What I need to do is start framing better? So that if you watch in twenty one by nine it doesn't wreck but that it's it's still a full sixteen by nine video. That's what I need to do so on on the dock and also I don't have much to share because I've literally literally just started setting it up but I am doing a Patriot user exchange. I had the fifty with the dual screen case. And my Buddy Matt Tyler had the row g phone too and we thought it would be fun to kind of challenge each other to use our favorite phones use. Each Other's favourite phones owns of the year. Something I did with. Tk with the G.. Seven back in the day and Matt Tyler is currently using My v fifty and I am currently the using Matt. Tyler's are g phone too so I haven't done much with me like I'm still. I just got all of my APPs installed This this is this is his early days. I don't I don't have much to say about the experience of having this phone other than it's big chunky boy and thick phones it. Kinda Fun I don't think I've used a phone quite this big since The Lenovo Fab you. Remember those Fab pros the ones that had like project tangos. You'd have like that three D.. And a are mapping on the back. This is pretty close to that. It's it's it's it's a big chunk But I'm very I'm very curious to see if a SEUSS's software customisations and cooling hardware because there is there is a big chamber in here that helps cool move heat out of the battery and the CPU are going to have as appreciable difference in performance as some of the other tricks that we've seen manufacturers go through so if you're on if you're on the Patriot Atri on discord. I've already disclosed the results of some of my test. I forgot to pull this up. Hold on I'm GONNA do I'm going to do a quick screen share here but I had a lot of people complaining about my camera test my video rendering tests because only rendering one minute the video. Well that's not a real test of rendering video so I took phones and let me window capture here as you can see from. I'm left right. I've got a V.. Fifty a one plus seventy a pixel xl and my ace and not my Matt Tyler's are og phone too. So I thought what what would be kind of a good stress test like something. That's that's really GonNa make a phone work and I came up with doing just a movie. Trans- code so I've got a BLU. Ray Rip of a fish called Wanda and I wanna make that video more phone storage friendly. So it's almost like a forty one video compression to end up at a video file that's GONNA be smaller for a phone. And I'm having each one of those phones and re render an entire feature film and I'm video shot video of the entire process so those four phones were important to me the the LGBT fifty has the eight fifty five but it has a much improved thermal pipe so lg put much better thermal hardware into that phone. The one plus seven t has an eight fifty five plus but it doesn't have any kind of thermal regulating hardware the Pixel xl also eight fifty five no thermal hardware that we know of but F two F s file system so a different file system and Google optimization for that hardware and then we get to the ro g phone to eight fifty five plus thermal hardware and wouldn't you know it F two F s file system so putting those four phones up against each each other. We've got fifty five thermal hardware but e x four. We've got eight fifty five plus no thermal hardware e x four. We've got eight fifty five. Not Plus no thermo hardware but F S and then we've got everything thermal hardware eight fifty five plus faster file system and let him go. The the the movie is an hour and forty eight minutes long. So it's going to re render a one hour and forty minute forty forty eight minute movie as going to be fine so yeah so. I'm going to put all that together. Do do a little talking about it. But again like we're talking about workloads that that make laptops cringe and we've got phones. That are not only capable of completing these tasks but are completing these tasks far faster than I think. Many consumers would expect that they'd be able to complete those tasks so it's it's a fun race and the results. Were not what I was expecting. I'm not gonNa tell you what I was expecting. You gotta come back and watch the video. So that's GonNa be that's GonNa be the deal from blowing by. Did any of them get Did any of them catch on fire. No thankfully none of them did So far the only battery catastrophes. I've had the gadget lab have been Samsung so I had the note. Oh seven that they refused to let me send back so I had to give the note seven back to the folks over at pocket now and my Galaxy S. six wchs as six active note. Five all had battery failures with the regular Galaxy S. six popping so my galaxy S. six looks like like a like a Burrito of a phone. The glasses barely hanging on to the the To the forehead and Chin of that phone. I've got LG fours it. Still Buddha Fine My v ten is still a tank. The only times I've been worried lied about battery. Exploding in my office have been Samsung. So Yeah that's GonNa be a fun comparison. I'm not going to be doing super deep dive coverage on the phone to but but I will be doing a light camera view not a camera deep dive and I will be doing a audio test. Because again we've got good speakers and a headphone Jack. So I want to see a seuss's usually really good at their audio like on on top of the line a seuss. Motherboards word's we've got sabre DAX which are made by the same company that makes the Quad Dak for LG phones. So I've got very high expectations that this is going to be a good audio performer. More to especially for Gamers you would think gamers would want good audio in their gaming products but also I wanna be pressure pressure. I don't want to be too nitpicky about this stuff because Asa WanNa get matt his phone back and I don't want My v Fifty back so I'm not I'm not going to hold onto it for too long. I get this out of the way here so That wraps us up there. That's the phone tease. What are we at? Aww Read Eleven twenty. I'm going to hold the mail bag. I'm going to cut mail bag out of out of this out of this podcast and we'll come back to that next week because the the one last housing I want to wrap this up with is is a tease. If you're watching if you're watching this channel unfortunately if you're watching this channel in the United States this is going to be a good tease. He's if you're watching this channel and you live outside of the United States not as good of a tease but there's a company that I really enjoy their products and I did a recent review on one of their products and they enjoyed the review. I gave him a positive review with some criticism. This is obviously not no. No products are perfect. And they're gonNA be hooking up an extra product for me to give away. This is going to be mostly gate twitter based contest but I want interaction. You know I I never like it to just be contest junkies who win my contests so oh now there's going to be the basic stuff like follow me and follow the brand and you get a point but then if you if you do something kind of Wacky I'll give you fifty points to participate so I just want to put put the feelers out. There that this Wednesday not the the the thirteenth Wednesday the Third Spooky Wednesday the thirteenth. Eighteenth the spookiest Wednesday of all. I'm going to be setting up a contest link. I'm not going to be promoting that contest on youtube because youtube gets really really weird about community strikes and violations on contests links. So you're going to have to find this contest link on some Gadget Guy Dot com Tom. That's where the contest is going to live. And I really wish I could tell you more about what it was that I was going to be giving away a especially because you know I. I don't WanNa be tethered to some kind of you. Know a disclosure and I don't WanNa be like cabled up been constrained by what it is that were we're going to hook up a lucky winner with I mean it's a total mystery Eh. What it's GonNa be and I really wish I could share but just you promise I promise you especially a contest of mine company? I really enjoy using their products products. Maybe it's good for your ears and maybe you might like using it while gaming right you know maybe maybe maybe. That's that's what it is. I I don't I don't know what else like I tell you about what I'm going to give away. It's I mean it's a mystery it it really is and You know you'll just have to tune in on Wednesday for for what it is so definitely be on the lookout for what it is as I might give away and major apologies to the folks Listening to the Audio version of this podcast because that hold it was totally wasted on you and I'm still not I'm GonNa say what it was. So yes major. Thanks to the brand that you'll you'll figure you're out with that brand is but yeah. I really like this one so the contest is GonNa Start on Wednesday and it's going to run to the Wednesday before Thanksgiving because it's tech. I'm thankful for it's really good tech and it's going to be a lot of fun to us so that's coming this Wednesday. Be on the lookout for that. I've got my g eight versus G eight x video. That's going to be coming out. I've got sort of a first look at the experience. Five using it out in the field. That's GonNa becoming out this week. I've got another gaming microphone An other gaming Mike Product. I've got a super high end not super. Hi and I've got a mid range pair of headphones that are expensive for people who aren't into headphones and are sort of mid range for people who are into extravagant headphones. That's going to be coming on the channel this year this this week got a lot of stuff coming up so I hope you're along for the ride. 'cause I think you're GonNa dig it and and again major thanks to everyone out there who's been supporting and contributing and And and A part of this conversation and community one of the things that I want to play with. And I'm not sure how to do it. I might even need to consult a lawyer. I have a ridiculous museum of old phones. I've talked about it on the podcast. Before I've been going through. And just kind of cataloging talking. What I've got and I actually have a fair number of duplicates I don't know what the fairest and the safest from a legal perspective way to give those away might be Some of them aren't even really functional. It would be like if you want this just kind of play with it. I would never recommend using this as an actual actual phone if anyone out there in in my community has any thoughts on that. I can't and with good reason. I can't legally you make that. A giveaway on something like patriotic giveaways and contests need to be no purchase necessary and the contributions that you have on Patriot. Make that more difficult. I do not want to make these like youtube comments contests because then it's it's just spam like I don't get at any benefit out of that. It's just people spamming channel to give me free phone. Give me free phone but in talking about some of these things like I think I've got to ATC one emanates you would never want to use and htc one m eight as a real phone as a daily driver but you know using an htc one eight as a media player could be Kinda cool like you. Just look it up on over Wi fi. You could stream audio to it. You could download audio directly directly to it and the headphone Jack is pretty good. Fire up some boom sound. Get some Nice EARBUD and take the load off of a phone that you have that might not have a headphone Jack. In this day and age age I could rock to phones and use a one eight as a media player so I wanNA find a way to fairly give some of this stuff out there to to give it away. I WANNA write up articles about it like you know. Do a museum post like hey this week we're going to look back on the HDZ one eight and how great it was and and Tim on. Twitter wanted to experiment with it. And I'M GONNA give it to Tim. That's kind of the community idea that I want to have for that if anyone has any ideas on stuff like that if there are any considerations to have for stuff like that. I've got some old windows phones. I've got some old old. LG got way too many l.. Jeez I can still keep my museum and still have some other stuff to give away so again. Yeah I would absolutely appreciate some help. Maybe someone from more of a legal perspective to weigh in on this would be the way to phrase contest versus giveaway versus versus sweepstakes. This is what you might want to consider. Someone can point me to a link about laws in California that would also be very helpful and then also just some ideas like how do we promote something like this but also make it more for the community again not like I wanna make this unfair but if you're watching a live stream I'm like this. You're more the person that I think would enjoy getting their hands on this than someone who's just got an egg icon as a twitter profile and and has nothing but contests links and contest shares with zero followers in their twitter. Feed so that that would be that would be my gig that produce. Do you have any old verizon compatible Motorola. I don't but I was so stupid excited. I got the verizon. LG Oh gee intuition. Is that what it was called. It was verizon's attempt at making a proprietary note So it's a big square four by three aspect ratio display. And it's got a stylus that came with it and I was so ridiculously loosely excited to get my hands on that phone this year. Like I wanted that phone so bad when it came out and playing with today. It's like Oh yeah there were actually some really good ideas here her big question. Do you have a spare Luma ten twenty I do not and unfortunately that will and not be on the list but I do have spare linnea nine fifty so cameras pretty good. The nine fifty cameras still still pretty a pretty good From from Sam Twenty Miles Dude. I'd take any windows phone or windows. Ten Mobile I was going to buy fifteen twenty just to have one even though windows ten mobile bulls shuts down updates next month. They're so nice. Every time I pull it out for me. It's the It's the nine twenty. I love my lime. I'm green European. Nine twenty. There are so few phones today. We we're just now getting the phones today that I feel feature feature wise really do outperform. What Nokia was doing three four years ago? I mean it's it's sad From Boeing by maybe just maybe just do a twitch giveaway. You know what that's a very good idea like I. I need to look into what the rules are again. I need to be able to do this right because I don't want to do anything. which you might get channel struck or or suspended or shutdown? I really don't have The the flexibility to To set that up in a way where I can I can learn by failing I kind of need to learn by reading all Up All this I in doing it. Right Let's see get this out of the way here from Solis Geek. I'd go for a key one. I do have spare blackberry Lou. ooh We got some good stuff. Okay something to something. Consider Sunday stew on your thoughts. Your suggestions your considerations all very welcome very appreciated appreciated but we should probably wrap this up Folks a fat produce a discord giveaway would be a problem because because the discord is tied to the Patriot. You can't really get access to the discord without being patron so that means it's it's it violates FTC guidelines so we can't. We can't do that but yes. That's the kind of thinking in the kind of spitballing balling and ideas. That I I hope we can come up with because I do want to find a solution for this because they think be old. Phones are still useful to some degree. And you know it's something I did with. Tk like I WANNA. I WANNA get more of these devices out there because it's silly for me to just be sitting on. Some of these phones is when they could be used anyway folks. Thanks so much for watching. I'm done talking now. No but seriously thank you for hanging in there. Because of how frustrating the news block was and I still took longer on the news block than I really wanted to another shoutout another nod just like yeah. I did with first responders and firefighters for Veterans Day. If you know someone in your circle of family and friends if you know someone in your community. It's Veterans Day and take that moment meet don't need to make a big scene out of it. I'm not going to put together a tweet. In American flags and fighter jets. It's flying over a football stadium but I'm GonNa make sure that my dad gets a video call from my daughter today. She's not GonNa know but you know it's it's like literally the least I could do and and it. It is a a nice opportunity to check in and remember her and to appreciate what some families have to sacrifice for other families and that it's another opportunity for us to acknowledge that we are as a culture as a country as a species. We really are all in this together so again. Many thanks and much respect and appreciation folks. Thanks so much for watching for sharing my videos videos for reviewing my podcast on whatever podcasting platforms. You liked us to review podcasts. For sharing the topics that we talk about and for participating eating on some of those other services to getting out there on the reds and leaving your up votes and dropping your comments ready dot com slash are slash blowing rice and You know again. I've picking fights with me on Youtube especially from this community here. You're you're a lot more fun than the average Youtuber. Bear so folks. I want you to have a phenomenal week with your technology. I want you to do awesome technology. I want you to be possum with your technology and I will catch you here next week on another episode another Monday Morning Tech Chat show dwell. Take Care I love. y'All catch you back. Recording voiceover spoken word is truly one of my favorite activities. My second favorite hobby. He is photography now. This mar phone might be making us death. But we can't deny the awesome power of the phone as a platform for Photography and multimedia creation. If you've been looking to improve your mobile photons skills if you want to produce more professional content or you're just looking to take your family photos to the next level. I wrote a book to help you out with that. Take better photos smartphone. Photography for noobs is available on Amazon kindle walking through the basic terminology of photography covering the settings on in your camera discussing composition inspiration and I even include a long list of exercises and challenges to really hone your skills all with some helpful example photos and diagrams diagrams search for take better photos smartphone. Photography for news on Amazon or use. The link bit dot L. Y. Slash. Better photos book to grab your copy today.

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Special: Opportunity Zones, Part 2

Confessions of a Marketer

26:00 min | 1 year ago

Special: Opportunity Zones, Part 2

"Podcast with Marguerite Edwards, and Garnett hair. Let's start the show. Hi, it's Mark this week Garnett. Ni- continue our chat with Peter Stewart about lawyer capital about opportunities owns we learn the three most important things to know about them. Now, Peter is capitalizing on them at that liar capital some common mistakes. Plus, we get a broader understanding of opportunities owns in general. So here it is. Important three things for people to know that opportunities Ellen's good question. Three things that come to mind for me. Our first and foremost remember lie zones were created when you're evaluating making an investment remember that the intent was to invest in economically distressed communities and really to hold for the long term. And so when you're evaluating what to invest in just make sure you understand. Okay. How distressed is this community? Right. And are there others making investments alongside you that will likely increase the odds that you and your investment will be successful? And then the second thing is making sure that you remember that this is a long term hold opportunities. So that will be the first thing the second thing is an I got you you mentioned early on just the number of funds that are being created. I got another one this morning from one of my investors. It's unbelievable and. So remember that this is still an investment you still need to underwrite. The sponsor you still need to underwrite their investment thesis. You still need to follow all the same protocols that you would if you were buying another stock or investing in another piece of real estate, don't let the fervor for lack of a better phrase take over. And then the third thing is what we've been mentioning all along, which is there still a lot. We don't know, you know, a few things that come to mind. Are we mentioned about the time for fun to make an investment as it relates to real estate? We still don't know how a refinance event is going to be treated, right? We're still looking for clarity on depreciation on recapture. So there's a lot that has yet to be decided and when you're making an investment folks need to be aware. Wear of that. Hey there another on. There's another check in point right sometime. Mid April or something there's another update or or a release or something? Yes. I think that's correct. And the other thing that I would just mention to folks in and we can put some of the resources in the notes of this podcast. But the good news is there's a ton being written about this. And there are a lot of great firms that are publishing their research their ideas, their observations, and so it will be easy for folks to kind of keep in touch with this as it goes along. Great tips. How is outlawed capital Pacific -ly thinking about capitalizing on the Ozone's? I've heard them referred to. Yeah. So we've looked at a number of different things. But today what we're most interested in is finding zones where there is already catalytic investment is the term that I like to use. But where either public private partnerships exist, or there are these big investments being made in infrastructure in emits use development. A great example in DC is the Saint Elizabeth's project in southeast. There was just a stadium built for the wizards and mystics to practice British they practice facility in stadium. And then now there's a lot of mixed use development going on and that's an opportunities on. And I think what what our. Thesis is we will the likelihood of us being successful in a tenure hold investment becomes incrementally higher if we're investing alongside other smart institutional investors. So we're looking at opportunities owns like that in DC were looking at an opportunity zone investment down in Richmond right now in another popular neighborhood in in Richmond. Where there's a lot going on. So that's how were thinking about it today of great. I have been looking at participating in some way. I'm not sure how just yet if ifting no Peter at some newly created investment opportunities that seem to fit the opportunities owing model in Los Angeles in south LA in particular, and all of these issues that you're bringing up about how to do it in an intelligent way to risk mitigate. And how to how to create the right partnership ecosystem around not only code vest. But also government community nonprofit religious organizations all of that stuff is sort of front and center in the dialogue I participated. So I wanna move on every silver lining has a cloud. So I wanna I wanna move onto a different part of the of the podcast. We talk about what can go wrong. What what mistakes? Do you think investors can make if they invest in opportunities in how do you avoid that? Yeah. And I think a lot of this. You know goes back to what I was saying earlier around you really have to know what you're investing in bright. And are you investing in because there's so many of these popping are you investing in a fund if it is a fund and its co-mingled water all the asset types is there a geographic specific geography that they're investing in what is there investment feces? I think a mistake that folks can make is not really understanding what they are buying and and what the fund is going to buy. And in addition to that. I would encourage folks to really do your homework on who you're investing with now. There are big investment funds out there that you know, traditional cast of characters. That are all going to create these funds. I'm sure the black stones the Carlisle's all now some of them have held off to date because again, they're still new rules coming out, and they wanna wait until all of that is set before launching. But there are big institutional players that are doing, but they're also lots of folks that aren't big institutional. And if that is the case you need to under-, right? The sponsor you need to make sure they have a track record in doing what they're planning on doing. And then the other thing to remember is if you are going to be invested with them for the next ten years, you know, assuming you wanna get the full benefit. Are they going to be around in ten years? You wanna make sure that they're they're still going to be here. You know, you wanna make sure that you agree with their investment thesis and the biggest way to avoid. I think mistakes is, you know, see council from experts right talk with your account talk with your lawyer talk with you know, if you're if you're thinking about making an investment into real estate in an opportunity zone fund with a new sponsor, a new company talk to someone you know, that is in the same business. Maybe not in that opportunities owner not in that geography. But who might be able to look at that deal for you and say, okay, this looks okay, or I would be concerned about this this or this to me, those are it's a it's a do your homework assignment. That's that's really what it is. All of that makes perfect sense. Great advice and poke unlike a true fiduciary understands his responsibilities. I wanna continue down this path. Of what could go wrong or the potential downside of this. You know, much ballyhooed investment opportunity, and I want to read you a quote from a community group in Seattle's Chinatown district. The executive director of that group called a spate of OJ funds. Sprouting up in Seattle a lot of funded by Microsoft, employees, Microsoft, alumni money, basically referred to the whole concept as it could be a total gentrification machine. And she was speaking to I think it's geekwire, and we'll have a we'll have as Peter mentioned, the the the notes in the U R L still of these things in the notes to the podcast, and she goes on to speak about displacement and all of the evils of traditional real estate investment in urban areas or underprivileged areas, what are your thoughts on this in terms of gentrification and displacement and. Participation in wealth creation versus exclusion. What do you think about all this? I comment would be we're going to need another podcast. When you ask the developer will gentrification. I mean, the can of worms the Pandora's box. You open. We're gonna Mark extend the podcast. To do this. Let's take this. Let's let's know that we're just scratching the surface. Let's be fair on the pro and con side of like like to be about, you know, your well-thought-out answers on everything else pros and cons. Yeah. I I think it's important for us to define what gentrification is just for the folks listening here. And when I think of gentrification, and I you know, that article you mentioned it's really an influx of middle class or more affluent folks into often times emerging neighborhoods and the process of, you know, new buildings popping up new businesses new retail, and that as you mentioned Garnett displacing, the folks that live there before which, you know, often times are not as affluent as the people coming in. And so when I think of gentrification, that's what it is. And. It's an exceptionally challenging issue for developers for communities for government officials. I mean, I it's challenging for everyone. So or pros and cons. I think the unique part about opportunities zones are again this ability to not only invest in real estate, but also in the businesses and the need for those businesses to generate the bulk of their income or at least fifty percent from that opportunity zone. And I think it's really incumbent upon the community stakeholders, and when I say that I mean, not only the community groups, not only the developers not only the business owners the politicians the in DC, it's the, you know, the office of planning it's the board of zoning. It's you know, it's important for all of those. Groups to come together and talk about the future of that neighborhood. And what's important to each of those groups and how they can together make that a reality. Because in my experience as a real estate developer where you see the friction is when there is not that when that conversation doesn't hap- are we saw that we saw just recently in in Long Island city, right? When the conversation isn't open, you have sub optimal results. And so I think to answer your question Garnett. The pro is a tremendous amount of capital is going to come into these owns the con is a tremendous amount of several, but exactly. Up in a way in that. You know, the the investment and not only real estate, but also business where I think it can be successful. If the community and all the stakeholders participate in an open dialogue, which is challenging that. That's not an easy. Ask changes tough. It's it's up to the stakeholders to to work together to make sure the result is what they all want and can live with so let left drill then on the hill little bit because I think it's worth getting some more impale around of the ideas, and concepts that are floating around that could be some of those solutions that you're referring so I've been I've been tracking a group called smart growth America, and they're admirable research and advocacy in policy formulation attempts. And I think they're baked in your neck of the beater. I think they're down at he wouldn't surprise me. Right. And so they've come up with some interesting research, some of the research, they have thrown into the mix is feeling some of the concern of community groups, and you know, part of the findings the really sort of big picture findings that they're coming out with in research is this mantra that I think is worth exploring a little bit. There mantra is the development without displacement, and they get into some detail, but not a lot of detail. What a surprise with with people who are, you know, advocating for one policy or another that they're that they're missing some operational rights operational deep felts, but I wanna throw into the mix couple of things that I've seen that are kind of interesting from the standpoint of maybe thought leadership God forbid in operationalizing this mantra development without displacement. So one of the things I've been thinking about for awhile, I Peter I had some contact years ago. A buddy of mine that that I did the choral foundation fellowship with many years ago went on to do much more like high profile things than I've ever got in my life forever Wilson. She became a MacArthur genius grant winter she's famous for having invented a decade and a half ago, the concept of like urban gardening and and like urban Agritech. Sure, I think is called Allen stuff like that. And so I wish working with her in the Bronx New York on essentially, an affordable housing project. And you know, this notion of displacement and all that stuff came out and someone's through sitting at a table of very lustrous, architects, investors and policy leaders on a local official and someone threw into the mix. Hey, what would happen if some of the two things thrown in that? I think could be fun to explore here. One was. Whatever the local businesses. Are there could be automobile garages? They could be catering companies. They could be restaurants. They could be I mean in a different world, if if the IRS agree to it could be legal cannabis dispensaries. But what what if we put aside some of the development funds of that would have gone into the real estate projects solely vote. If we just invest them into these enterprises and UC's definitions to make sure that the money stays in the community and create jobs and create wealth sharing, and that sort of thing that's one I wanna I wanna give you both of these. And then ask you to comment on either. And then the second thing is what if we created essentially as in monopoly the game -opoly a community a side car fund that would essentially be a holding been for some small amount of the return that the real estate investors with typically get and what if we created some sort of local investment organization. So that the community itself could use those funds. However, they saw fit to off the cuff, you know, not fully defined concept. But I'm curious how you think either one could be relevant or even if they're element. Yeah. I think you hit on a couple really important points and opportunities and the thing that comes up for me is as investors go into these communities ensuring that they realize that they're already great community resources in organizations there. And I think that's kind of your question about, you know, community chest, right? There are in in many of these communities already organizations that are impact investment organizations that are they're doing small loans to local businesses. And so I think it's again incumbent upon the stakeholders in that community and the new opportunities. Funds that come in to seek out the relevant actors in that community already and work with them to accelerate and utilize their access and knowledge of that community to better the community. And ultimately if if I'm an investor in that opportunities on fund better the odds that my opportunity fund dollars will increase in valley. Because ultimately, if you know the more folks working together to improve the community, the more value creation. There will be and I think that gets me to the second thing that I think you are touching on. Which is there needs to be the support and programs in place when businesses are created. So that the folks that live in those communities that don't have the relevant skill sets. Can learn those skill sets and take, you know, take part in in in the in the wealth create. Right at the good one. A really good one workforce development work for training. All of that stuff has to be integrated into not only the real estate piece, but also any kind of enterprise investing business investments going on. Yes. And I think that your common is right on the more. And this can be going back to how can investors better evaluate investment opportunities is what is the group that you're investing in thinking about it in those holistic terms as point right? Are they reaching out to all the relevant stakeholders in that market or those markets and really thinking about it holistically? Instead of you know, what I'm buying the corner of x and y streets, and I'm going to build an apartment building. And it's going to be there for ten years. You know, I think the odds the odds of success are much higher. If you're investing in a group that saying, well, I'm engaging this group and that group, and we've got a public private partnership here, and that starts to feel a lot better. In terms of the odds of being successful over the long term. And it's interesting that you restated it earlier you talked about risk-mitigating by essentially having good and dependable and insightful co-investors on the real faith. And and fundamentally I think if you're gonna do this, right? You have to treat all of those organizations. Those those non real estate, you know, organizations that we're talking about government community religious local businesses. Do you actually have to treat them like co-invest, and the upshot is exactly the same risk mitigation? You know, it's upside implication, right? So that's a really interesting thing that came out of the way restated it. I'm very curious about urban versus rural. Opportunities owns and so do you think the opportunities that are in rural areas are actually going to attract money, and will what kinds of investments, do you think are gonna work? So I'll give you one anecdote in that. I know someone who is putting together an opportunity zone fund to invest in a rural area that rural opportunities on. And can you say which state New York, and okay what they are? And what they are doing is they're they are planning on building a farm. And so I think that's one example of how folks are going to take advantage of it. But as as an urban investor for for the most part, I'm not sure, but that's just one item that I've heard of all add something to that. I just heard about a group, and I want to say they're in the northwest. I don't remember which state do the Oregon or wash. But they're operating in a rural area and their modal or they're sort of target investment is solar farms and solar array and stuff like that. And that I think makes a lot a lot of sense. I I haven't seen a lot written. I don't know about you. But I haven't seen a lot written about this sort of granular details of the types of investments that are going to be made in rural opportunities that that's kind of curious to see what you would. I haven't either. I just know that that one example. Okay. So one last question, and if more about continuing the education in the self education, where should investors go to learn more? And how do they stay on top of this fast? Moving fast, evolving thinkest investment opportunity of our lifetime or whatever for gold. The best tax break ever. So again, like, I mentioned the great thing here is that they're ton of resources out there all just list of you. And we can add them to the show notes. The first one is if you're looking for an opportunity zone map, Steve Glickman that gentleman. I mentioned that used to be edgy. He started a advisory company, and it's called develop advisors. You can go to develop advisors dot com. They have an amazing map with all the zone, and where their hospitals, and universities and great great resource there Nova Graddick, which is a accounting firm has a whole they call their opportunities own resource center, which has a tremendous amount of information side encourage everybody to go there, as I mentioned, certainly, you know, speak with your accountant lawyer the other thing that I will mention his the company fund rise has a grain. We can put this in the notes as they have a great. Calculator that shows you what the actual dollar benefit would be to you. If you invest a certain amount of money, and they'll show it over those four buckets. So that's a that's a fun tool. If you as an investor evaluating, okay, I've got fifty thousand dollars of gain or one hundred thousand dollars of gain. What does that mean over the next ten years I've been posting and tweeting about this? You can look me up on Lincoln or you can might Twitter handle is at Peter out liar, and I'll be posting more things as well. So hopefully, that's helpful. They'll figure it the shameless plug for outlier capital. What's the website for like, apple shirts? Just WWW dot outlier. Cap. CAP dot com. Okay. That was good shameless. I'm going to put an shameless plug for actually, I think communities owns are gonna be an amazing opportunity, hopefully, Peter, and Mark it's also going to be an opportunity or thought leadership and for a unleashing a wave of innovation in areas that are traditionally neglected by a lot of sophisticated investors. And hopefully a lot of good comes from. Maybe that's a great place. But we've all I think it's an interesting thing that we should check back in with Peter. Maybe in about six months and see how things are going. See how this is developed in that period of time. I want to put all that money to work. Absolutely. We'll hope hopefully we'll have a couple of of live projects to to talk about. And obviously Garnett. Mark grateful to be on and chat with you all today. And I think the more all of us are talking about this the the better that that's the way we start meter. Thank you Phil for being on the show for bringing this wealth of information. And all of your insights, all of your guidance to you know, this evolving area of opportunity for all of us. Absolutely. Thank you. Garnett night chat a bit more. About opportunities owns and impact investing with lane Jost who handles responsible business leadership at PW. See in the weeks ahead. We'll be talking with Mark Gallaher about innovation in the world of f one. Daniel Ray about the innovation. He heads up at ultimate guitar Francesca. Gino Harvard Business School about how rebels can help accompany embrace innovation. And we're also planning discussions with experts in elder tech and e sports so state-owned joining guarded Mark on the innovation podcast. Visit innovation podcasts dot CO two. Subscribe and listen to other episodes.

Peter Garnett Mark developer Peter Stewart Ellen Seattle Marguerite Edwards Saint Elizabeth Harvard Business School Richmond Long Island Oregon Los Angeles Mark it Microsoft Mark Gallaher
324: Automatic Kicking Machine

Accidental Tech Podcast

2:02:51 hr | 1 year ago

324: Automatic Kicking Machine

"So you live in a a fluent is that right now, why are you hit? Do the opposite of what you think you're going to do. It's affluent that to sounds wrong to me for not make God. And like. Maybe like Aflac Catholic duck. Oh, affluent afla. That's a good Amena manic. It's a good what? Now a joke. Demonic? It was a joke. Everybody, relax. Okay. So we should start right at the top of the show in remind everyone. I know I got really obnoxious about it last week. You're welcome on or I should say that Marco should say, you're welcome. Because I noticed he cut quite a bit of my lecturing as he should have about how now is the time gentlemen. Now is the time, ladies and gentlemen, to go to ATP dot FM slash store in order to find links to bureau's website where we have all sorts of different dice up every year. Somebody actually usually many somebody says, oh, I meant to do it. And I forgot in can is there any way is there any no there is no way Paula car over stop your run, do whatever you do need to do to safely. Equip yourself to go to ATP dot FM slash store. Please and buy yourself some delightful merch, and I'll just leave it at that this week moving on let's start with some follow up. Rob mckelvey has written into say that the. Australia post website, terms and conditions. Have a whole section telling you what to do to get approval to link to their website, this came up within the context of what is it luminary like that? I already forgot the name of the stupid thing. Yeah. Lumine? It was telling them that. They you can't put my podcast in your feed. So rob rights in the context of us saying who's in control of, you know, whether or not a podcast up luminary, and we were joking about well, who's in control who links to your website, while pantley the Australia post has some guidelines about how you can link to their website, which is something else. It's not that long. But it's surprising to me that this exists saying, this is the thing that websites used to do before the understood the web, this is notable because this is a current website. That is live right now that says if you want to establish a link to the website, you must first seek approval from a straight post. Also, if the nature of content of Europe site changes in any way, you must contact the stray post Olga right on that brings the obvious question of are we allowed to into this from our show notes? That's good point. That is coming. Get us a post come at you, bro. Roger Alan Ford is associate professor of law somewhere rights. Hey, we'll ever put this on the show. It's didn't include the way, I'm sorry. Roger one nail down too much. He did give the location of where he's associate professor of law. But you know, I Don dumping creepy. All right by providing an app that allows members of the public to receive transmissions of album, album, art and podcast audio luminary could be said to perform display those copyrighted works by betting podcast copyrighted artwork within the app and playing copyrighted episodes podcast player app would be infringing on the exclusive rights to public performance or display. I don't know why the time and others went want to block luminary, but they are essentially on solid legal ground doing. So I this. This was should've context I'm sorry. This was you know, whether or not it's even really possible for for these podcast and podcast host to block their shows from appearing luminary, and I think Roger wasn't necessarily saying that this was a slam dunk case if I recall scheme L E mail correctly. But I believe he was basically saying it's possible. It is certainly plausible in the Mythbusters cannon it. Is plausible that that this could be enforced in American copyright law. And this was very long Email that I was trying to dense over the this is an another instance where just because something is legal doesn't mean it's not also stupid. Reverse that because it really is very silly. But legally speaking there are lots of legal arguments, you can make in favor of the idea that law what can you do? So we have lawyers the thing with copyright law to is like like much of law, if someone makes any kind of copyright legal claim against you. You can't really fight it like you can't because it's never going to get to court. You never going to argue with somebody. Well, what I'm doing is fair use or what I'm doing is not constitute public performance. Like, you're never going to argue that what's going to happen is somebody has a complaint that they want their stuff off your apper platform. They're going to complain to you. And if you don't respond they're going to complain to apple or Google, you know, the app store provider, and if they don't respond they're gonna complain to your web host like they can complain to in different infrastructure providers up the chain until one of them doesn't want to deal with it. And and just kick you off. So the reality is there is no copyright law defense online if somebody wants to make a stink they make a stink. And you. To comply. So the reality here is this is not a legal problem. This is a market problem that the only defense that anybody has it's kind of thing is making an app or service where it is not anybody's best interest to opt out of your service, or it is not or like, nobody would even think to do that. Because it seems ridiculous to do that. And that's where most by cast apps land in that kind of area. But luminary by angering everybody, everyone is looking for things they can do because they're mad. And that's that's what a lot of the stuff was. We are sponsored this week by clear the absolute best way to get through airport security. I hate being late to anything, and I travel a lot. But I still get traveling's idee. I get the fear that I might be running late. So I gladly welcome any ways that I can save time at the airport. Clear helps you get through security faster. So you never need to rush through the airport or run to your gate or worry about being late with clear you get through security with the tap of your fingers. So you can get to the gate faster and reduce that preflight stress. It saves time by using your eyes and fingerprints has inefficacious rather than checking physical ID cards because they believe you your body. You are the best idea out there and clear isn't just for airports either. They helped you get through security faster and over forty airports and stadiums across the country with more being added every day signing up for clear is easy. You can create your account online before going to the airport when you get to the airport a clear ambassador. Her helps you finish the process, and then you can immediately use clear, and they have family plans to up to three family. Members can be added a discounted rate and kids under eighteen are free. When traveling with a clear member so clear is the absolute best way to get through airport. Security and it works great with pre check to so right now listeners of our show at their first two months of clear for free go to clear me dot com slash accidental tech and use code accidental tech. That's clear me. C L E A R M E dot com slash accidental tech code accidental tech for your free two months of clear. Thank you so much to clear sponsoring our show. Overcast has come out with a really frigging cool new feature and I'd like to lodge complaints that hopefully we can rectify right now. I was listening. I was listening to under the radar which is an excellent podcast with Marco end. Our our good friend Dave Smith, and you kind of fluffed over all the technical aspects of how this feature works. Explain the feature momentarily, but I am here for the technical plantation of how this works to the to the degree that you are willing to share. Now, I should probably back up and explain what the hell I'm talking about. But I would like it to be on record that I am all about figuring out or not figuring out. But hearing about how you did this. Because this sounds fascinating to me. But what am I talking about? So out of nowhere in. I did not know this was coming. I don't think John knew this was coming, and you had said you had said on maybe under the radar that only a couple of people. Did know it was coming. But all of a sudden the last couple of days Marco and in his app, overcast have released this new clips feature and the idea is and Mark if I'm you know, characterizing unfairly just feel free to cut me off. But the idea is, hey, you know, pug casts are not easy to share in the same way. Like a gift for in some degree, a YouTube video is and Marcus for years and years had time stamp llings where you can go to a the overcast website, and it will open to a specific time in the podcast, which works great. Except for all the big shows with dynamic ad insertion for all the reasons we already spoke about cetera et cetera. Plus, it's still hard to know. Like, am I supposed to be listening to the last forty five minutes of this episode in just starting in the middle or am I supposed to listen to fifteen seconds or what what's the deal here? And so Marco, and perhaps you can discuss motivations in a second other than that. But it seemed like the idea was, hey, let's make it easy to share this stuff. And you know, if they share it with. Overcast clips feature that some you know, kind of subliminal that's not the right word for it. But kind of quiet marketing for overcast, but then because you're good person you decided to optionally allow people to remove the overcast branding or add branding, apple podcasts, or even some of your competitors. Which I think is really tremendous. And I hope I don't sound so cast because I really do mean that I really think that this is the right way to do it not the easy way. Not both in the literal sense of the word, but also in the like sh-, I really be promoting my competitors kind of thing. But I think this is the right way to do it. And you're good man, Charlie round. And I use this feature for the first time couple of hours ago, and I loved it. I really wanna know even if it's privately how you did all this because I am neck deep in doing things that are considerably less complex and considerably less advanced, and so the thought of trying to implement this just makes me, you know, googly eyed, but one way or another before. Dive in if we even do diamond implementation, I just wanted to first of all publicly say I love this feature. I think it's great. I think it did right by everyone including including listeners, including competitors, including podcasters, I really think this is a home run. But if you would like to revise anything I said, or at any clarity, please feel free. No, you're saying how awesome. I am. I. I have to say how awesome this first two before. Mar who's I'll allow it? One of the parts of the Casey might have left off. I think is the most important part of this entire feature actually before I get into that. Briefly touch on the the links at the bottom where like you linked to competitors and stuff like that. I feel like there's a little bit of the enemy of my enemy is my friend going on here because is not linked to them Inari. Those. Honestly, like, I mean, honestly, I don't care about luminary luminaries, not a threat to me Spotify threat to all of us. But I don't know how to link to Spotify. When what I have is an I tunes ID every app that I linked to their has a way that I can generate a URL knowing the I tunes idea of the podcast. I don't know how to do that for services like Spotify. And so I if Spotify had some way that I could say like, you know, Spotify dot com slash podcast slash tunes one through five, and I and I know that anybody has sent there would get redirected to whatever spotify's giant garbage or was would be for that podcast. I would add them, really. I was thought you're mostly linking to open to actual real podcast apps as in they read RSS feeds, there's two sides of this like I do want to only support open based podcast if I can. But also, I want the share page to be so useful that big publishers will be tempted to use it and. If big publishers have a lot of their audience on Spotify. They're not going to even consider using a page like share page that has a bunch of other apps, but not Spotify. Now that being said this might be a concern because big publishers would probably never use these at all. Anyway, they're probably gonna use only their own stuff because that's how how do you usually work? So like, this might be a moot argument. But I I would like that those pages to be as broad appeal on the client size possible. All right. Well, getting back to my original point. I think is the most important feature of this, which may that have been cleared all of our descriptions when you activate this feature. What you get in the end that you can stick in your tweeter over the hell is a video which is like you're sharing podcasts if I'm sharing podcasts. Why the hell do I get a video at the end of it? It's not it's not a video medium. It's audio and overcast. Already had audio Sharelink's granted without an ending time stamp Marco could've added ending time. Stamper duration very easily crepe round or something. But he didn't why is this feature video the fact that it's video is I think the most important and most attractive thing about this future for a couple of reasons. One is the obvious one of like when it makes the video the content of the actual video includes like, essentially, the brand of the podcast the album art over the hell, you want to call it of the podcast, which is important for branding recognition to know. Instead of just following an overcast time sampling and overcast calm, and you'd see the thing or whatever. But like, it's so there's presentational detail there. But I think the most important reason is that people want something to look at. And it seems weird because it isn't it all just about being in the headphones and just listened to or whatever just and the only thing that happens on it is like a progress bar that progresses just being able to see a progress bar and to see how much longer there isn't a clip individually to see the ad mart. Why you listen people like to look at videos, and like, I don't know if this was a conscious like if you went through this whole process or decided this important about it. But I think it is essential. I think part of the reason people share these is because all the social sharing services are optimized for sharing video you can play it right in the thing. You don't get sent elsewhere. You don't get sent to website all social media sharing type things have to be good at sharing videos, all the gifts get turned into video and all the little, you know, when vine was popular that was out there and just like it's part of social part of good use social media to embed tiny videos. So even if you're sharing podcasts if you do it as imbedding tiny videos that is the the the native lingua franca. Of the entire social networking world. And in practice. I think people love it because it's video I like it because it's video. I find myself watching the little video of the thing which has a tiny little progress bar that goes from left to right while I sort of see the ad mart out of my peripheral vision. It is a very simple feature. But I think is the genius part of this feature that if you were just thinking about how to do this in a straightforward way. You would have found a way to share audio. And then you would have founded how bad tiny audio clips are handled by most social media networks that is the entire feature. The entire feature is generating video four social network sharing. That is the whole point because I basically wrote the feature for Instagram everything else has been like, oh, it's nice to also do other things. But like the very first layout. I made was the portrait for Instagram stories. The reason why the videos are sixteen by nine or nine by sixteen or square is because those are the exact dimensions of what what Instagram is is optimized for. I even looked up want some of the first questions I had were like, what is what is the ideal resolution that you can submit to Instagram for video the pixel resolution and stuff and by there's no information about this out. And if things like, you know, with Instagram stories, there are overlays certain controls in certain parts of the video. So that's why I don't have anything in the very top very bottom of Instagram story video. So anyway, this was built for social because the fact is like you said earlier like audio is the format of podcasts, but video is the format of sharing. And so if you want to share things socially it needs to be a photo or video. Anything that like if you try to push them that doesn't have those. It's very people to skim over. And I think also like I think you mentioned this. I think there's also a an appeal of like when you are playing one of these clips there is something for your eyes to do. So like if it was suppose the Twitter app or the Instagram op we're really optimized for playing audio. They're not, but suppose, they were if you do that you hit play you keep scrolling and your keeps growing you're reading things with your eyes and the linguistic parsing parts of your brain. And so you stop listening to what's being said if it's talk rate, if it's talk segment of the audio you need something visual to lock your is in place to give them something to do. So that you pay attention instead of continuing to scroll through a visual format feet. Otherwise, you wouldn't hear what's being said, it wouldn't be very effective. And if you've ever seen a kid tap a YouTube video while it was playing like why? Why are they tapping the screen the video is playing it's everything's fine. You know, why they're topping it to find out how long videos. By seeing a progress bar. You know, how far along in the clip are you what am I signing up or if I just hit play and it starts playing. I'm like is this going to be like twenty minutes of audio that I have to listen to and I expect into ten minutes. How long is this thing? There's a progress bar right there, and you can see very quickly. And also doesn't a second that the actual maximum limit means that you're not going to be there for twenty minutes. No matter what which means that when the price starts to move. You'll see oh, this is going at a pretty good clip here. It's going to be over pretty soon. I'm about halfway through. You know, how close you're getting to the end the second feature is that if Twitter epic anyway in some other video players when a large video starts to play this. This looks for all the world like like a player animation in like overcast or podcast app. It has a bar. Let's say if like me, you briefly forget that this is a video playing and you think it's a a player app where you can just grab the the scrubber like the little play head in the progress bar and drag it to fast forward to like three quarters away through lots of video playing apps. Have a thing where when the video is playing if you swipe your finger across the screen at ax is sort of a virtual progress bar, really? And you can actually grab the little thumb individial. And I didn't know move your thumb like you're moving the progress bar, and it doesn't match one to one. But it will basically do what you mean? Like you've made a fake interactive video that tricks you into. But it is not interactive is just a video and all you're doing scrubbing. It's it's unintentional genius. Great. I'll take it. So we've kind of talked about what it is the motivation. I again, I love this so much to the extent you're willing to can you pull back the curtain in tell us kind of how at the very least how did it go on a qualitative sense? Like was this pretty easy sailing or were you fighting this every step of the way? And then I am happy to go as deep as you want to the actual implementation. I have a feeling that's not going to be very far. But but but how how how can I can I make the inflammation? Yeah. Before I know nothing about this this a while. That's right. If there's some easy API for doing it. I some case he wouldn't even dancing so. Well, yes, and no, I mean, I have a relatively okay idea of a lot of the surface area of the IRS API. But there's a lot particularly media. I don't know. And either way I've only been doing this for real for a couple years. Whereas for Mark it's been what ten plus. So there is a lot. I don't know. I appreciate the compliment. But it's possible that it's easier than I thought that being said that it's not as his his thought. So I have two guesses easy. One in the hard won the easy one. Is if this is true, pretty sure Iowa says screen recording API, and if you can get an offscreen view in sick, the the existing screen recording API draw screen view, you just go through the view and have the screen recording recorded, but that might require it to be real time. I don't know. So that would be the one where I didn't really really have to do any work Iowa sorta knows how to retard the screen, and I just have a recording offscreen screen, and I just rented the screen, and that would work out the hard one is. It is a video ceres of pictures. You can render a view that is in the state that you want. And the only thing that changes the progress bar you can render a series of frames as individual states of us and capture the view as an image. And then surely there's some videotape. That says, hey, I've got seven hundred images each of which is a frame of video constructive video out of these frames that would be the hard way and imagine that would be very painful and take a very long time. But it could be done given the constraints of obesity. Probably neither one of those are right. But those are the two things that really sprung to mind both of those would have been too slow. What the way what I wanted to do. I wanted something first of all that I could render using you I kit style thing. So I could use my fonts, and my my text rendering and like have the artwork render with the shadow and the rounded corners and everything basically using the tools I used to render the interface I wanted to also render the video I also critically wanted you to be able to preview it immediately upon generating. Trimmed re region for the audio. So when you trim the audio, you you put it pushes, you say next preview, whatever it pushes you to the preview screen and you can hit play, and it renders it in real time. It plays it in real time. There's it doesn't have to render to video I and the reason why because what you're playing is not a video what you're playing is a coronation stack. Basically the entire all of it is rendered using coronation, and that makes us you can scrub through it with that scrubber on the bottom. And when you hit the the save thing in the corner to bring up the show sheet. That's when it encodes all that to video. And I also I wanted to make sure also I wanted the preview to be exactly right. I wanted what you see in the preview to be what's rendered to the video. So I didn't want. I didn't want the video to using a different contact -nology. That would like maybe have like different text rendering or different, you know, anti Elliot's saying on edges or something like that. I wanted to be. Exact. So I wanted insta- previewing using core animation. You I couldn't stuff like that. And and having the video look dental, and there is a way to do this. I can tell you. It's I'm using av. Export av asset export session. Kind of these names are so long for Sapien. So the the preview video is not it's not you. I've use it's layers. The rendering is a av asset expert session that somewhere buried deep in the API. You can set something called on animation tool animation tool is weird API that lets you basically overlay onto a video a coronation composition. And there's all the thing is like with with this API like everything about av foundation is incredibly powerful incredibly poorly documented and has the worst error reporting of anything I've ever used. I have heard this many times not just from you. The only documentation you'll find the headers are basically useless, the official documentation is basically useless, the only documentation, that's any good. Is like stack overflow and blog posts usually very old out of date. And because not a lot of people are doing this kind of stuff there really isn't that much help on stack overflow and plays like like there's some help. But it's not not a lot. And sometimes you will find other people asking like, hey, I got error negative three hundred nineteen when I did this. What does that mean? And it'll have responses, but they're all just be other people saying I got to I don't know and occasionally somebody would be like, well, he wrote the entire thing fixed. It. And so there's all you've run into all sorts of weird errors and failures. My favorite failure astute users might have noticed that occasionally the progress circle during the export restarts at zero. Have you have you caught this happening? No. I haven't someone someone complained that it was taking like to progress bars. And I it was just the same progress bar temp. Number two. Yes. It isn't. It isn't uncommon. I'd say it happens. Maybe I wanted to five times what happens is during the Avianca export of the video as its rendering video which I have very little visibility into. But I do have a progress. Value point, five point, six whatever during the export. Sometimes for reasons I have not been able to figure out and that are not reported to me at all progress just stops. And it just it will never finish. Like when he gets to that state when progress stops of Avianca export session. It just never resumes. I have no idea why this happens, I found no documentation about I have, you know, find nobody reporting this elsewhere. And there's no error reported went happens. It just stops one time. I tried like I pause the bugger, and I basically I canceled and restarted it manually. Basically, I kicked it. And that time it worked and that kept developing in the next time. I noticed that happened in one of my test runs. I kicked it again. And it worked the second time. And I've actually realized that if it stopped working, and I just kicked it it would usually work the second try. So my solution to this problem was I filed a bug with apple just get you know, I didn't because that would have taken a lot of time and not solve the problem because how do you file a bug on this? Instead, I both know kicking machine every time. It detects that it has stopped for more than a few seconds. It automatically kicks it and usually fixes it fifty percent of the time it works. One hundred percent of the time. So this is the equivalent of this is the equivalent of when you add that delay for the resume after Siri delay. Exactly. The same type of terrible solution to problems just like. Just try to get probably zagging time. But this is how you have to ship things like 'cause you know, what the reality is. I could have filed a bug, and it would have taken five times longer elder going back and forth with can you provide test project? Not really I can't even provide reliable reproduction steps it happens sometimes and this usually fixes it. That's terrible bug report. And so and it's not like they're going to fix it immediately. They might fix it this fall. But even like, it's may they're like whatever is locked in for the W C release. If these OS is locked in. They're not doing bug fixes for unimportant stuff now. So I either wait for apple to fix this bug before I shift the feature was on with this. Because you know, if one of the five exports fails that kind of sucks like you can't really ship that I could have waited seven months for apple to maybe fix this feature or I could build the automatic machine. And that worked within ten minutes. It's so that's the solution. I shipped and I would love to eat it anymore. I would love I'm still trying to figure out what caused this. I'm trying a few things for the next version that maybe might avoid it. But I still haven't quite now down. So that's that's how if you ever see the progress circle restarts off from zero. You know, what happened? Does it? How many times will retry as many as it takes? So you can theory it'd be there and watch that progress Bargo start and then restart and then restarting was never leave until it succeeds. The most of twice. Zippy a new contest who can get the most restarts. If anybody can can reliably like have reproductions of what makes it do that? Because I still can't figure it out. So let me know this. This is a killer feature. I love that. You're linking all these other all these other competing apps have you gotten feedback from like the Castro, folks? I know you're relatively close with the Castro, folks. But like they're all copying this feature. Now. Well, that's reasonable. They're building their own automaking machines. Seriously, they pleased with it. But or or how was the reception not necessarily from Cass Rushton single them out just know that you talked to those guys fair bit. But like in a broad sense. Did you speak to anyone about this after released where they pleased where they kind of like, whoa. Kind of whatever seems positive good. No one seem to have a problem with it. Yeah. We're all saying we like this feature whatever. But the the real proof is that if you go on Twitter right now, at least in the circles of our followers. Lots of people are using this feature to share clips from podcast, which is exactly the whole point of the feature. Now, maybe it's just a fad and people will stop. But honestly, I think we're just gonna continue to see more and more least among overcast users, and when every other podcast client copies feature then we'll see more in general, which is good because I have I have listened to more. Short clips of podcasts since you've introduced this feature than like the entire three years before that combined there everyone. And that brings up another one you limited this to us at one minute maximum length. Yes. How did you come up with a number? I wanted to have a limit for lots of reasons, you know, there's fair use concerns. Attention span concerns with people like if you pose a ten minute video on Twitter. No one's gonna stare and watch all ten minutes of it. You know, it's you know, it's it's just not the mode. People are in progress bar is not that exciting. Right. Exactly on their you know, technical concerns. Also like that that long video would take a lot longer to encode and that would be tedious. And so there were there were number of the, you know, the what made me choose one minute specifically is because that is the limit of how long a video can be on Instagram might as well like I wanted to have a low limit. Anyway, might as well match that one feature. Request is the minimum length should be shorter. Because I wanted to post a clip of someone snorting on a podcast, but the snort was not short enough. What is the minimum length? One second second. I. Actually don't know it has to do with the width of the grab handles for the trimming because I I have I have logic for the grab handles never to overlap each other or cross each other. And this is currently why you also can't trim podcast from zero zero like from the very beginning of it. You can't clip that you have to clip like one second in. That's not a content decision. That's a implementation detail that I'm hoping to fix and the next version. Yeah, I guess handles are like c shaped and not just like flap is the little the little branches on the sea must be pretty long because it's it's a big gap. But yeah, I would love to be able to clip it a handle they had to actually has a rectangular grab area that is about five times wider than the visual handle like two and a half times on each side. Roughly, it's some it's about think fifty pixels wide total is the is the total grab area. And right now, those grab areas can't overlap so the closest you can put the handles together is something like a hundred pixels apart that I could be better. And if you really wanna go nuts which. Probably don't, but it'd be good practice for your future audio editing application, one of the features that I always love would always loved to have in audio video particular audio when you're trying to do fine judgments on a trim like more or less got the beginning in the end where I want them. But I wanted to find a judgment being able to no longer touch the primary controls for touching the trimmings, but to have a separate set of controls for the fine adjustments. Whatever those may be right either. Whether it's like, a tiny bump thing or whatever because you usually especially sort of Qantas data, you can know there's a minimum step that's reasonable to take for coming. Right. And you so you can even have to be a digital to be, you know, bump it left left left. Right. Right. Right. Lots of you know, Photoshop type applications are, you know, MAC painter, whatever had a way to nudge this election by single pixels at a time with the arrow keys and stuff like that something like that where you get it pretty close and then use a separate control with with less less pressure because especially on the touch screen trying to move your thumb one. Retina pixel to try to get like a little bit. It's just it's very difficult to do. And there's no real dooming on that time on it. I know it's not an audio editors just for trimming or whatever. But. If you wanna go hog when you're trying to make just that perfectly trimmed clip, which you should be because a lot of people are getting pretty sloppy. Especially with the end will there cut it off in the middle of someone's word or something. It's no good. You want you wanted to sort of begin and end exactly where you wanted to find controls would be great. That's interesting. I mean, if you if you use voice over you can go plus or minus one second. That's how I made successful. Second is huge. I'm talking about like one central. Well, that's one thing. I could do is what should be technically a pain in the butt. But when I could do is like if you hold down on one of the drag handles, maybe it would zoom in the whole audio editor features, you can do all the fancy things or like when you when you move the trim handles, you constantly Rescale to readjust the scale to say now that you've you've moved the drag handles now that is hundred percent. And but I think that's that's too much. Probably just you know, just being able to do gross adjustment. And then finally just -ment I'm movie annoys me because as far as I'm aware. I'm always what I use to videos. It doesn't seem to have a great find the jesmyn feature. Luckily on twenty seven inch screen, you make things pretty huge said zoom to MAGS and get it in where you want it. But I always I'm like just don't make me even with a mouth don't make try to move any control on the screen a single and pixel or a single regular point like this give me a second set, mechanically speaking. There's always like a second set of controls with like a different sort of gear ratio or mechanical advantage ratio where you can move huge gross movements that move the actual thing. You want move tiny amount as I was developing the clip editor there decide like what is the scale like what's the level, and I could make a dynamic, but that would again a lot more work. I didn't I didn't wanna tackle that yet. So, you know, what's the level of that and overcast is a portrait app, and this is a horizontal timeline being. So it's like, you only have the short side of the phone as the width of what you're dealing with here as I was developing it, I actually slowly zoomed out from like, I would think that had a certain timescale that was right. And then as I would try to make cliff with it. I'd be scrolling scroll social trying to find like where I wanted the end. It was too many swipes to get like a like a forty five second long clip. And so I sold zoomed out an out and out, and I basically solve the problem of imprecision by just adding cross phase, the beating an end. So there's a very brief. I think it's about like point two seconds cross fade on the audio like fate in the beginning fade out at the end because that way, you can be a little bit sloppy. And you don't hear like a an abrupt transition. Yeah. You need that. You don't get a little pops. Anyway. Right. Yeah. I mean, I could do zero crossing thing. But that's that's that's more trouble than it's worth. And. I don't know that passing that level of precision to core media is a great idea to rely on. These are all details. Totally passes the the basic test, which is people are using it to share clips and the clips are good and enjoyable people. Hear them under stay understand what the person was trying to clip and they're funny. And it's it's working system is working. Yeah. Exactly. So please, everyone share whatever you want. And like, I don't want this feature just like have a week of use and die. And it's the kind of thing like if you are seeing these clips on a regular basis, you will then think when you come across a funny moment, I can post a clip of that. But if you never see any of these clips, you might never even go to this menu. Like, you might even you might never even know this feature is there. I would not known as there. I never go to the share thing. Why would I ever even tap that? But but only know about it because I saw the future on Twitter. Right. And it's like I could put up a balloon or something in the app, but I hate doing that. I don't do that. So ideally, this kind of feature that. People see around, and then they go I can do that with overcast to cool. And then they would go look for it. And they I assume they'd be able to find it pretty easily. I think that's probably the biggest problem is. I don't think people wailed. I mean, the nerdy. People will not use the share icon or whatever. But it for a feature this good. It should be so much more prominent in the application. I know is now is not the time to really redesigned. You're you're you eye to highlight this one feature, but I think people will have a little bit of difficulty finding it. Yeah. I'll play with. And you know, certainly like when I designed the next version of the now playing screen, I will certainly consider like do I want to promote this further? Did you this? What do you call this even calling clips, but the name of Apple's app for like making Instagram story things you don't have a trademark name. It's not like, no, I just call it share clip smart clip. Smart insta- clip. I don't know. There we go into the smart clip. Oh, my word. All right. So the feature. Wow. Trying to get the Marco name slams and one. Oh, yeah. So I would ask you how the new airplay to stuff is going. But I already know what you're going to be doing starting next month. And you're going to be using marzipan to make overcast with the MAC. Oh, wait, never mind. Steve Smith already did it if you slew the ability to play audio, but that's a minor minor issue. So tell me about your side of the story. And then a good way, I hope that didn't sound nasty. But you know, what what what's going on here? Yeah. So basically Steve transmits has been playing with the marzipan environment on Mojave for I don't know six months now for a while. And he wrote a couple blog posts and has made some tools on called marks paneth by that basically allow you to take a simulator build which is therefore an Intel build of an Iowa sap. And if you're willing to disable. Oil system, integrated protection and other thing about I think like some kind of circulation allegation on a MAC, and you run this tool on a simulator build you can make it run in marzipan on Mohave. And so those are two giant ifs. If you're willing to do this that I'm not willing to do. But he is the tool, and he knows a lot more about giving us to run than I do. And so meeting for a while to like cinema, similar build overcast. Like, hey, can you see if this runs and see what happens let me know if I need to do anything? And and so I finally got around to doing that. What is it a couple of days ago now, and we work through there were a few frameworks that I had to if deaf out the use of things like the media toolbox things for doing things like putting the play that controls and title information and control center like that API is not there in Mojave marzipan. And so I had to like if death that out for this build, and there were couple other small things that had to have out that just weren't present things. Like, the male compose sheet. There's a lot of frameworks that aren't there this framework that just don't make sense on the MAC things like that control center framework and car play like those frameworks are missing on the MAC probably for good because it just doesn't make sense. So, but like, you know, my app long and try to load them, and it would crash, and so we went back and forth. I think six builds later after a few more things, I think he got it running. And that was it. And it was great. And it didn't take a lot really like which was promising partly. I kind of. Kind of one here in part because I am such a jerk and don't ever use anyone else's code in my app. Like, I have my have contains almost entirely my code and a little bit of that aren't mine are very simple open source things that I can look at the source for anything that I can that I need to change I change. And I and it isn't loading a whole bunch of crap to get there. And so I was I was able to fairly easily give him a version of the app run in in Mojave under the marzipan thing when it's hacked in this way. So I was very happy with that. And it's really cool. And you know, it isn't MAC like at all. But that's because like he's written blog post about like, they PI's you can generate to do things like add toolbar, add MAC toolbar, add MAC split views. Add menu bar stuff. Apple script stuff, tucked bar Gration. Like, the the the basics of all the stuff are all there. But he doesn't have my source code. So he couldn't add those things, and I don't want to take the time to do it yet. Because I assume all that stuff is going. To be more mature, and maybe different in a month. When the official tools, presumably come out. So anyway, I'm really excited about the possibility of making this a MAC app, and I'm really happy that it mostly works. As is like, it's not gonna require massive changes one change. It probably is going to require though is there too. And as you mentioned it works in the sense that the U I works. It does not however play audio which four podcast app is not great early establish overcast is all about video now. Well that feature works fine. Watch the progress bar move from left to right than silence. No, the audio in the clip preview editor that works because that doesn't use my audio stack. The audio playback in the preview editor for clips is using if you player that works fine under marzipan Mojave. But my core audio based audio engine does not and actually I sent him my airplay to test harness. Apple a very basic app. That's running my very alpha airplay to engine just to see like does this play audio and did so good that that is moving up my my priority. Like, I should probably switch to the sooner rather than later. So I'm gonna finish that soon. I think that's probably the next major thing tackle, no. I don't think we've need really need to spend much more time on this. I think is extremely cool. And you had made mention of this off handedly a moment ago, but he did not have source code access. And when he decided to make himself a three column version. One of the app that was without source code access. Which is just I if you follow Steve John Smith this won't surprise. You shouldn't have surprised me. And yet I found it somewhat surprising that he could go in there and was the snot out of your app in order to get a three column version out of thin air, which is just incredible. And Marco's during the actual Mars van version of overcast writing source code like, a chump. Thinking of Steve drowns myth of added a third com. Just by shifting selectors around over the hell he's doing in there in like an hour to like it took them like no time. Like, I actually I do want to go to three pane layout on, ipads, and Macs. It makes total sense. Like, I have I already have three level navigation. It makes complete sense leaking the left most famous be the root screen. It'd be like playlist podcasts and the middle would be the currently blazer podcast. And the right thing would be now playing like that. That's of course, we're going to do. And I think modern ipads are now wide enough that I can do there too. So that's great. So I tend to do that. But like for me to do is gonna take me like a week to get all that worked out like even with my current structure, and he did it in like an hour with no code. It is utterly preposterous. It really really is. But that's why we love him. We are sponsored this week by hover. Go to hover dot com slash ATP. To get ten percent off your first purchase who doesn't need a domain name. Nowadays. It feels like everyone has one. So it's important that yours stands out hover is a wonderful registrar. And they make it super easy to find the right name. They over four hundred Demane extensions to choose from to help. You bring yourself online so one that's getting a lot of traction. Lately is dot MI dot me. A unique demand extension to use for your portfolio to showcase who you are. And what you do. So if you have a portfolio website ready to go go get a dot MI name at hover with dot MI extension. Really shows off who you are and your work. So also hovers are really great domain name registrar. I have a lot of my name. They're and I keep buying more there because it's just so nice and easy to be one of their customers. They have great tools great easy to use interface. They have incredible support. If you ever need any kind of support they have support that you. You wish everyone support was that good all the tools are there all the design is there. It's very respectful of you. It doesn't try to scam. You they include things for free that should be free like free who is privacy. There's no tricks or upsells or scammy add on it's just wonderful being a hover customer, and I had this check them out for your domain name needs. You can do this at hover dot com slash ATP. You can learn more there, and you can get ten percent off your first purchase. Once again, hover dot com slash ATP. To learn mooring ten percent off your first purchase hover. Get into main name for whatever you're passionate about. There was an article in the New York Times where they said there used to be lots of apps that would allow parents to control slash restrict or at least visibility into if nothing else what their children are doing on their phones and a lot of these apps, we're using MDM, which is mobile device management is that right things which which is a tool that apple really developed in order for corporations to control their assets. So if your company issues, you an iphone then you could use MDM in order to maintain that iphone and make sure that only the right apps were being used, and that you knew where the iphone was physically on the planet and so on and so forth. But a lot of these companies that were doing the kind of stalker vision for your kids. So you could see exactly what they're doing where they are. And so on and so forth, we're using MD and apple. Whether or not they did a good job of explaining it seems to have come to the opinion that using MDM for some if not all of these things isn't really what it's meant for. And there's some amount of debate. How they message this to these companies, but one way or another they told the company's. Hey, you're either not going to be able to do this anymore and your company will maybe go away or you really need to rethink the mechanism by what you're doing this which may also make your company go away, but we're not cool with the way this works right now. And so the New York Times piece, which I really didn't care for was basically a bunch of Karachi and moaning from these companies about why Apple's is big and unfair and terrible. And there are a lot of reasons why apple can be big on fear and terrible. But this one didn't strike me as that unreasonable. And the response from apple was basically, look, it's a privacy thing. And this isn't how it was supposed to be used and we're not comfortable with this. So we're not going to allow it any. More. I think apple did make a bunch of mistakes here, but I will start with his New York Times article, which sort of kicked this off the angle in the article the sort of sensational angle, and the the story put forward by these offer developers affected by this is like wasn't it. Convenient apple comes out with his own screen time feature for dealing with restrictions on family members or children's phones and stuff. And all of a sudden, it doesn't wanna let us the third party developers who've been offering the same functional doesn't want to let us seller. Applications anymore is an evil apple ones up lenders. The Mark only kick everybody else out, and then ABA have like this PR thing that was partially quoted in the New York Times article saying that apple treats. Third party applications the same as it treats its own yada, which is not true in any way. And the worst thing the worst thing that could have, you know, the one the, quote, they could've told as the one that, you know, those in the no, no, it's not true. But that's not the issue on is the angle kind of like Apple's doing this because they're mean slash evil and have their own interests at heart. But the here the mistakes that I feel like apple mate in and some of them are understandable. Nobody's perfect. But like this. There are mistakes that made the situation. More often eighty two the first one I feel like is leading third party developers distribute, parental Torralba kitchens using MDM right 'cause MD. Casey described it. Well, it's like for companies who led of their employees have iphones who want to control those employees put on their iphones want to be able to remote wipe them and stop people from using applications like any kind of thing where if you're in a big company, and they give you computer harbor to us. They have some degree of terrible evil control over it. Because that's how it works. Like, it's the company's phone. It's not your phone. It's the company's laptop not your laptop. You're just using it. An MD 'em gives the company control of your laptop the damn scenario parental controls. Like the reason they use them is. Because is literally the only way without gel breaking to provide this function -ality on IOS devices. But in in this scenario in the company scenario, the company is I don't know. I don't know the right terminology of this company is is the thing that sort of controlling the thing and the employee has the phone, right? There's just two parties is the company and the play. Well, actually, I suppose is the vendor of the of the things Zambian, but either when apparent buys this application and uses it to control their children small. I may be wrong on this. But my impression is that. Yes. The parent has the ability to control the control the child's phone. But also the vendor of the MDM application, effectively has some control in this chain as well because they are the creators of the application maybe wrong about that. But that's correct. They they have full control. Yeah. So so it's like it's three parties and area instead of two and that third party is one that that apparent downloading those application might not realize is in the next year, a company, Shirley knows that it is the one thing, but the parent might think I'm just controlling kids phone, but the company that makes this software doesn't have any untoward access to my kids phone, and they do it's just not the right tool for the job. And it's on apple that they allowed this entire ecosystem of applications to flourish. Now, I can kind of understand where I come from like, well, there is no other way to do this, and this is functionality people want, and we don't have as Lucien for it. So why shouldn't we let third parties do this? So long. All we work on screen time. While we we're gonna do. Let's just allow these third party applications to go on this go over them hindsight. That was a mistake because eventually when comes out with a similar feature. And this is the kernel of truth in the store in New York Times comes with similar future. That'd be like. All right. Well, finally, we have screen time. Now, we can get rid of all those applications that use MDM and say, please stop doing that. Because it's really not great. And it's it's putting parents situation where they might not realize, but they're providing third parties with access to their phones that does not great. And like, it's an no you're a good company. But really this is not what is for them the MS for companies, and their employees sewn is not for parents and their kids Jones for the frontal situation, you screen time. So on so forth that is a bad situation though, because there remains no other way to provide this functionality and third party app. This extent of the song, then using MDM. So apple says, please company that's been in business for a long time and has lots of customers stop using MD. Your app, and it's like, well, you're basically telling us to stop selling out because there is no other way for us to do what we do on our app without using MDM. So and how did apple into the situation they allow these developers to sell their apps using MDM for a long time and be successful? And now they're saying you have to stop basically, it's a product killing decision at the third mistake is when apple has to communicate this. Like, I don't I don't know the right way to communicate us because it's a hard conversation to have to call the developer and say, yeah, I know you've been selling application for a long time and very successful with it. But basically you need to stop selling because we're not gonna let you use them the anymore, and there's no other way for you to provide this functionality. So basically your practice dead. Sorry about that are bad, and by the way, and by the way, we have seen screen time is available, but it's not as full featured as your application, but it's built into the US, and we control it. And like that that is what is happening to a lot of these people who make price like this. But there's no good way to communicate that it's gonna be sad either way. But perhaps one of the worst ways to communicate that is the passive aggressive app store rejection way, which is basically to descend terse response that say something very of clinical that, you know, your use of API vol blah is disallowed please remove the use of this application and resubmit something like that. That doesn't like the just seems like it was from machine that says MDM is not allowed doesn't acknowledge that it was allowed before the doesn't tell you that apple understands what this means of your application. Right. And this is true of all the app store frustrations. You'll do thing in an app for years and years apple thinks is fine. Then you do a bug fix update. And they'll reject your application for feature that's been there for a year with the thing that says this application does X please your vaccine re-submit with no acknowledgement, but I've been doing X for years you've approved hundred versions that do X to me as a human. Tell me what's going on. You just like mechanical rejections? Maybe that's the quote, unquote, right way to communicate. A legal perspective because it opens you up to less liability because it doesn't make. But it's it's not the human way to communicate that again. Maybe there's no right way. Maybe the wrong approach would try to be human. Because if you're if you do that you're opening yourself up to legal liabilities. Who knows I don't I don't know what goes into the behind this as a difficult conversation to have. But the difficult conversations stems from earlier decisions that were Apple's decisions to make that I think the made the wrong call on. So they allow these stores these things being this for a long time. Then when it came time to essentially kill a bunch of products. It seems like at least in the few cases of people planning it was communicated in the most Tursun sort of impersonal way possible. And it just makes everybody feel bad. Right. So there is there is fault to go around here. But in the end apple is I think apple is doing the right thing. Shouldn't be isn't the right tool for parents to do that. And there is no other better API. And yes, I understand these apps are potentially better and more featured than screen time. And I know it looks like apple is killing things with screen time. But the kind of our and that's. Just part of software like if you implement if you are third party that influence a feature that rightfully should be part of the us. Don't be surprised when eventually does become part of the US and the app store era are not the app store, but these sort of the privacy, focus security focus today. Don't be surprised also that not only does it get built into the US. But that you you're no longer allowed to use whatever weird side are you using before because this is a security concern. I feel bad for these companies, and I also kind of feel bad for apple, but there's a little bit of enough to go around. But I don't believe that. This is some nefarious schemes they finally will destroy all those companies with our amazing screen time that we bundle for free with our s. This is not a a massive moneymaking scheme. This is part of apple security, focus, and it stems from an earlier mistake and earlier mistake, by the way, we're apple was being if you wanna look at it more magnanimous, and they should be basically saying we don't have a solution to this. Why shouldn't we let their parties MD the answer is because someday you're gonna have to stop them. And then everyone's going to be sad. But they made a bunch of money. In the meantime, they wouldn't have made it apple had said, you know, what we don't have the ability to provide this functionality, and we're not gonna let third parties provided with MDM ever. And so we'll just all have to wait for twelve or whatever screen time came in. So. Tough situation. But. Apple is not being on necessarily evil. They're all just. Reaping what they sell from past mistakes. I feel like this is an extension of went through a few months ago, or maybe even less than that with the apps that allowed you decide load stuff. So there was like the getting enterprise, I feel like the enterprise thing was far worse. It was both more nefarious on on the vendors. Not apple the these other people it was it was pretty clearly nefarious on their part. And clearly pretty clearly not in the spirit of enterprise. Search your for this. I do think is more gray. But I don't think it's that dissimilar ideas that, hey, you're taking technology that we really wanna use for Abyan ABC, and you're using it for was going to say XYZ, but maybe that's bit aggressive, but you're using it for I know Ellen, and that's not good in this analogy is really falling apart. But the point is the point is that it's using this technology in a way that it's really not meant for in just like, John. Like if you burn for that. We'll whose fault is that really? Yeah, I'm mostly agree with John and a little bit from Casey, except I think that I would be surprised if the development of screen time had anything at all to do with this. I think it's purely coincidental that had happened to be developed during this because apple has been cracking down on things like enterprise bution abuse things like VPN apps that maybe shouldn't be like they're using VPN's to do things that are not really what depends are four apps that are using using profiles MGM to do things. Like this has been a crackdown on it's been going on for like a year or something like that. Like it's been like over over a while. And I think one thing that became apparent that we've seen. Signed to this here and there, but I think one thing that became apparent during the enterprise for ticket kerfuffle from a few months back is that it doesn't seem like apple has a great idea at like decision making levels of power. How some of the stuff is being abused? Like, it just it's kind of seems like the app store is so big and the ecosystem is so big that sometimes stuff gets through. And you don't have a super powerful person in the company making like a policy decision on everyone of these things because it's just too big to keep up with. I get the feeling like I think what happens is at some point. Something is brought to the attention of the higher ups. Whether it's through the press or through internal channels, whatever it is. And then decisions can be made. And then they're executed for down below again at the lower level of the company where more people are that's kind of the impression. I get. And so whenever there's like an app store policy change. I think it's something that we're like some. Nobody in the press or somewhere like calls out. Hey, these apps for doing this thing. You know, why are they ought to do that? And then someone who matters notices and they say, hey, that's wrong. They shouldn't be allowed to do that. And they go tell review. Hey, get rid of these things or enforces policy or changes policy. That's what I think happens. And it's a big company. It's a really big company, the lower level, people are probably not empowered to be incredibly communicative and for both with the outside world. So when laurel people get a directive like, hey this app is doing this thing that we actually don't want to permit. All they can probably tell the developer is your being four rule. Two point four point whatever, you know, it's like they can only give as robotic responses probably because of that's you know, policy and has Johnson maybe legal concerns and everything, but what we see from the outside. When this happens is you have an app in the store like if you'll developer. You have an in the store, it's fine. Because it gets updated. It goes back review every couple of weeks when you change something. That's fine. Until it's not an all you're getting from apple is is this kind of stonewall response of either no reason, given or a very robotic minimal reason, given it's not really helpful and not really explaining. Why was okay last month? And now, it's not. So it makes sense on both sides. Like, I can totally see I can understand why apple side of it is the way it is. But the developer side of it like what we see on the outside in this kind of situation. It's terrible. And you might occasionally maybe if you're lucky like when when when you're on this out of of a rule change or reinterpretation if you're lucky after a while, you might get a phone call. I've always termed the agent Smith phone calls because you get a phone call from the apple Maine's which numbers. So you can't call them back. You are not given a name. Usually if ever you are given the bad news from his person who usually the conversation, usually quite civil. But they they will then. Tell you like the reason basically during those phone calls, but of course, because it's a phone call. You don't have a solid record of it. Really? You can't really quote them very easily. It was a phone call. You get a phone call from apple. That's like a nice terse person telling you really what you can't do. And that's it. And you have no it ever reach them. Again. Actually, I heard a rumor awhile back that all those phone calls were made by this one guy who was the nicest guy in the world, but also ex military and just had like there's an article about that. I think oh, really. Yeah. I heard he's just had the willpower of stone. And he could just make these calls and get through them with people like probably giving all sorts of crap on the on the other end, he just get through and apparently was super nice. And apparently, he he stopped doing that job like last year or something like that. Anyway, I don't know if that's true. But I thought it was kind of funny that gets this super nice guy doing all this. Anyway, you know, apple has this problem of like the change of policy. Something was allowed now they don't want to allow it anymore. That's going to be uncomfortable. As John said developers. Have this problem of apple changes, something right from under us, and we're getting terrible to no communication on it. And we seem to see me powerless, both sides of it suck. I think the the solution here, you know, it's never going to be problem free. But apple has to get way better at the communication when this kind of thing happens, they are just horrendous at I think their motivations here were fine. Like, I I don't I don't think they were bad the motivated again. I don't I don't think this had anything to do with screen time. At all. Agreed. I don't think anybody at apple at like decision making high of levels knew about these apps using the m for this purpose year ago and said we're going to wait till we long screen time. And then kick them out. I seriously doubt that that's plausible. And I'll tell you why. The only reason apple made screen time. Because they think it's a feature that users want that there is something that people want to do with phones that are not currently do. We should make a feature that does frivolously add feature style us like it's filling a user need and whoever was on the team to to fulfill this need to say, let's make let's add this featured Iowa's you have to figure out. Okay. What what should this feature? Do. What what you know? What feature? Should it have what functionality should have? Surely, you look at the space, and you say, well are there any other applications out there already do something similar in your exploration of the space? That's when you discover head there's seventy five applications that do this with millions of downloads, and they all use MD to do it at that point. I feel like you now have the knowledge maybe it's still a high enough level the company like a big company, that's two different divisions. I'm saying those people have the knowledge that there's a bunch of apps out there that they're using MDM, and I feel like that high enough level team with feature. That's that's on the slate for. Potentially being added Iowa's twelve or whatever at that level. I feel like that that's enough to disseminate the information to the to the company at large at the very top. And I think at that point. You have the discussion is like, well, we're exploring this feature. We looked at the space. We think we're going to rescind you're going to add, you know, these are the bullet points. We're going to have these, you know, the the benefits and the functionality. We're going to have an also we we also think probably that you know, that these abseiling MDM shouldn't do it. But let's not kill those apps yet. Let's wait until we get screen time out the door because the next consideration. Is that our users are, you know, this need that we think are us have their currently getting filled by third parties. So let them continue to have the third party apps. Intil we have some semblance of replacement then deliver the bad news. I'm not saying this is what happened I'm saying. It's a plausible scenario where apple with apple trying to do is provide a feature to its users in the safest way possible. And also, not screw all this users. Remember, it's like what apple? Users developers the three level hierarchy of priorities, right way. More uses than developers. So the calculus has to be not like, let's, you know, let's sneakily wait until screen out in screw the developers. It's let's not screw our millions of users because our millions of users want functionality, so intil we deliver screen time. Let's just not do anything to that thing. But put it on the agenda for some point after screen time ships to eventually get the maps out of there. I think that is a plausible scenario because I think there's no apple implemented this feature without looking at what what exists in the space at a high enough level that the company might know, again, there's a describing basically kind the motivations everything involved that Apple's looking at trying to find features that are useful suits users. That's thinking of its users using third party apps and then in third place on four hundred other developers who probably not thinking of that much. But again to use your priority wins. We don't want apparent putting an app on their kids phone that unwittingly gives control to a third party developer without the parent. Understanding exactly what they've just. Even away. When I first read the story, I pretty much immediately sided with apple in my head. But if with the decision side of it like, you know, the communication side. I think is was not great. But the decisions that makes total sense to me. Because like as I was developer. I didn't even know these apps existed and somebody would have asked me having idea for an app. It's a parental control out that limits how many how long run apps on your phone. Can I make this? I would've said no, it's not possible. Any IOS developer would know like there is no way for apps on your phone to look around in your phone and see what other apps are running or have any control over that. Like most developers would assume that's not possible. And if somebody would somebody like in the back of the room and raise their hand be like, hey, what if we install an MD 'em profile on every user's device, and we use that to control these any experience I developed we're like we'll never gonna allow that. That's that's definitely going to be against store policy. Like, I think it's. It's like developer. It's it's experienced developer commonsense. That this kind of thing would probably not be allowed because that is clearly not what MDM's for similar thing with VPN's. Like, there's a lot of apps that we're using VPN's to do certain things and apple crackdown on them over the last year or so as well because that's a similar kind of tool where it's like, you're taking this tool that is intended for a relatively specific type of us. And if you make a VPN like like, a novel like Facebook novel thing that has pretty horrible privacy implications that most of its use are probably not really going to be aware of and maybe are installing for other reasons VPN is is not a great tool used for that job, or to be permitted to be used that way. Because that's not really what it's for. And most most users don't realize all the power gives the other party and things like that. And so like for the same reasons that MD profiles are. I think common sense not not allowed to be used as like this VPN's. Also, developer commonsense shouldn't be allowed to be doing this kind of stuff. And I think those policy on both of those things has been slowly tightening. But not outside of their own commonsense. Like, clearly, they are responding to the problems that we've seen over the app store like in recent years of life. Wow. This large scale thing is using this API in a way that we think is creepy. See also enterprise stiffish abuse stuff. Like that Apple's finding ways that are that are being abused like this, and they're closing those loopholes, and I don't think that's the wrong decision. The only failures are that loopholes were allowed to be exploited in the first place, and that the and the policy change was so badly communicated almost every time. We are sponsored this week by Eero finally WI fi that works the single router model just doesn't work for increasingly high ban with world. What you need is distributed. 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By let's smash PTP starting with Keegan sans. Who writes what naming convention to use for directories and files on your MAC camel case hype hyphen, limiter, underscored limiter, etc. Underscores a good for many things just like to put that out there for me. I I generally just use like the windows ninety five. Oh my God. I can put spaces and capitals, and whatever I want my file name. I will do that. Thank you very much. And so that's what I do. I use spaces. I don't have any particularly strong feelings about camel or PASCAL case or anything else I named things in the most appropriate way, I see possible because that's what the file system enables me to do. I'm going to assume that Marco is slightly more particular than me. Let me ask you first. Any thing? That's like like me user facing. I guess you spaces and proper capitalization. And it's fine. I I will use all lower case no spaces using hyphens between words for things like developer directory. So things like my my get checkouts of like overcast dash web. And it's all lower case. That's that's get checkout. So it's like in the in the past that will be used by developers stuff. There's no spaces just because just in case something weird happens. I don't want to deal with it. Right. So. And just for some reason. And I do the same thing my servers the servers all have lower case with dashes as limiters at just because she's you're on the next to do things that way. But yeah, anything like documents for myself that are just like in my home documents or anything that or stuff on my desktop. That's all just spaces and capital, letters and stuff. It's fine. Shell scripts are another good example of all lower case in hyphens metoo. Yep. So that there are Cajun's that that will be more particular. But not usually all right, John. We only have but so much time. But please tell me rules for file file file naming on your file system. More the since more than a decade before windows ninety five I was naming files insane ways because that's what you can do. And by. And I was naming them whatever I wanted. And they in the literally whatever one's the name. There was no part of the file name that I was required to put any sort of secret code and their the operating system would then interpret and try to take action based on. I could literally about the colon. I literally name my files, whatever I want to know that that's forbidden character. But there was no part that if you wrote at the operating system would look at that part of the file name and interpreted weird as way can break things. Okay. Okay. You are. So I've never met a human being more angry about extensions angry forever. Anyway. And how did I choose? How did I actually choose the name them mostly title case? Like, the you know, my obsession with title case, it was mostly title case. You don't say because they were like the titles of folders and applications were named essentially entitled case since the beginning of the back. So that's the way everything's away. That said, you know, so the MAC now has Unix two great, tastes tastes great together. I do sort of switching to pull were coats which slightly here coaching when I'm doing work. If I am working, let's say in a programming language that itself has some kind of strong cultural convention for what you name your source files, or what you name directories or sometimes they mandated convention like Pearl where the package name corresponds to a directory path s exactly match the package name and the language has an informal convention for what how package should be named. I totally use those conventions, right? Sometimes it's hard to tell like if you asked a random person in the street, what is not naming convention for Java scrip-. Files. Some person might say hyphen separating words all lower case. Some person might say underscores in the end, it doesn't really matter that much, and it's a cultural thing, but certainly known would say that the convention for no jazz is to generally do title case was spaces between words, that's not the convention. You can do it. But it's not the convention. So I do code switch my personal preference. If I think in the absence of any other overriding, cultural concern for a programming, language or environment. What would I choose? But there is no context like that. Like every in every context, whether it's shell or policy, or whatever there's some kind of cultural surrounding influenced to suggest how you might consider naming your files, and I generally just tend to stick with whatever the dominant culture is within the thing, which means that on my MAC, there are a bunch of files and folders and everything that look to their name the way I want them to be named especially the extension, but then their whole directory trees that are in this sort of culture and parlance of whatever program. Language our environment. Patrick rights without a willing to spend big money on controlling important pieces of tack. What are they paying so much for AWS instead of making their own cloud? It's interesting question. But I I don't think apple has any interest in managing something that. Like their their cloud stuff. I I mean, they have that huge data center in North Carolina, which is used for something. But by and large, I just don't think that them doing doing an AWS clone or AWS alike. Really how does that help the user because AWS seems by and large to be pretty good at what it does. I don't know John. Why am I being wrong? Why am I wrong with this used to be much less? Interesting question if you'd as the same question a couple of decades ago, it'd be like well, duh like there are things that apple does that a part of its core company core competency in value proposition. And there are things that it asks another company to do. Right. It doesn't doesn't decide to run its own construction company to build its buildings and the current apple every example, I can think of is like actually much more plausible. He might think decades ago. Like, you know, like there are certain, Johnny. I've builds the bulldozer. Yeah. They're not like reinvents concrete. Right. It doesn't it doesn't make the machines that make it's compute. Like, it doesn't, you know? It doesn't make the bulldozers that mind for the chemicals that go into his like that's not what the core competency of the company is it's like what is what should we put our effort and money behind? Outsource things that are not part of your value proposition to accompany that does them exclusively in dozen better. That's that's the way you do things and practically speaking both decades ago today say everybody uses into the public cloud, writ large is extremely popular. If you don't work for a company that does things online, perhaps you don't realize how much of all the cool products. You use are powered by AWS or to extent, Azure. Google cloud. The companies don't advertise that fact, but that's how the world works today. And it works that way. Like why does net flicks use AWS? Why don't they run all their own data centers net flex its core. Competency is these days making original content and doing content deals and delivering you video. It is not writing cloud infrastructure to run servers and stuff, right? That it's not like that's does not where they want to be spending the money, and that's that's sort of the current business model, but today with apple today, it's a more difficult question because there are very few companies that should be trying to run their own cloud. But arguably apple might be one of the that should at least be considering it Amazon runs its own cloud. It's called AWS. Goo runs its own cloud. Microsoft runs its own apple is kind of in that camp and services are big part of apple things yada, yada, yada. You can still make a very strong argument. Apple should absolutely not be running. It some cloud, and they should outsource this. But some of its competitors actually, do derive advantage from running their own clouds. Google certainly does their entire business was founded on the fact that they would run their own data centers and design their own hardware and drooler machines and do a lot of stuff, and it gives them an advantage. Both in terms of cost and innovation. Lots lots of other areas. Amazon has an advantage because they built AWS is kind of weird side business. Now, it is huge business because as I said every other frigging company in the world using the public cloud to run their businesses on and that's a pretty darn good business. Look at like bazo says like the yearly report or whatever any good business. It's nice to have. It's maybe it's not an iphone size business. But it's a big business, and it's nice to have that. And by the way, there's synergy between that business Amazon does and all that other stuff. Apple a lot of the same. Thing's true would gain both cost and innovative innovation advantage to running its own cloud. It if they decided to ever sell their services, like Google, and Microsoft and Amazon do that could be a big business, but on the. There has also crowded market and Apple's not traditionally being particularly good at this. But on the other other hand, maybe they should be good at it. So it's way more complicated question today than it used to be used to be the answer was simple. Nobody should run their own stupid today. The answer is nobody sure on their own cloud, except maybe apple might think about it like like five companies in the world that you're on the unclouded apple might be one of them. So I think this is interesting question. I don't think they're really good answer. I mean, I think it's it's even simpler than that. I mean, this is a this is a role that is easily outsourced because it is it is separate from. It's easy to separate this roll out of dumb server stuff or dumb online services. Like, it's easy to outsource that to AWS or various companies like it of US, and it's hard for apple to build that up to large scale reasonably quickly like Apple's cloud needs. And back needs have grown a ton. Over the last decade, apple itself seems to have a lot of trouble multitasking as a company in general. They have they seem to have trouble scaling, their company skilling their headcount in particular. They seem like they're they don't do that very quickly or very easily. And when they try and they have trouble. This seems like an easy thing to like take this big boring highly commoditised role and have someone else. Do it for us. Because not only him we then not build all that out ourselves and save some headcount and save some complexity there. It's also possible the Masan can do it cheaper than we can. That's not. Like someone who hasn't paid a big AWS Bill lately. I mean, they certainly can do cheaper. But it won't be cheaper to you because they charge a profit margin on things that they do. But it's it's a highly commodities market. It's very competitive and easily switch between fighters using a night. So like monetize does you think? It is. Like, there's a really depends like I see like you're making the argument for the old apple, but I think what you really saying is apple so late to the market that is too late for them to be competitive. But we'll both like I'm saying that they are pretty late to this market, especially as you mentioned like this is not historically an area where they've been incredibly competent or cared, the very strongly to become competent. So like, this is something that they don't really value much as a company, you know, the whole thing of like, the Tim cook Daughtry, and we want to do things that we can add value. They can't add value to data center of could like if they did what Google Google and Amazon both add value to that. But they add value to their own businesses. And they add value in terms of they sell it other people. It's a good business and like. What Google does how they can make their Google paid for AWS. It would cost them so much money. And by the way, that also be paying a potential competitor. Right. Google does their own stuff because they're Google, and they do it really really well for their own purposes. Google cloud is a good example as the best example, apple and Google has their public cloud service. And even though I think Google has best in class best in the entire world data center management and systems for their own stuff. Like, the Google search engine and all that other stuff they are behind Amazon in terms of selling that to the public because they came in too late and if Google having trouble catching adver US what chance does apple have right, but that's kind of the pessimistic taste and on the other apple was considering making a car. So like we live in a strange world. Good point. Yeah. I think I think honestly, I think apple should have already been in the public cloud and many many years ago, but they haven't so maybe it is too late. But I think it is not it's not entirely slam dunk, and depending on how this shakes out long-term. Apple may seriously regret, not getting into the space because I can tell you that is a lot of money to be made selling these services to other people at of US bills, really add up and no matter who you go to who's apple going to go to the public cloud. They're not gonna run their own. They're either gonna pay Microsoft, Google, Amazon. That's not a great situation to be in. And they're going to pay them a whole lot of money doesn't if they're going to be a big that's not a good situation to be in for apple. You don't want to be. It's kind of like Google paying apple billions of dollars to be the default. Search on IRS. Really don't wanna be giving that much money to your competitors. Especially when they know they have you over a barrel. Because what are you going to do move all your crap from US into Azure? It's not it's not an easy lift. All right. This next piece of ask ATP has been lingering in our document for probably two or three months, and we keep putting it off off off putting it off but sometime forever ago. Paul would third wrote. Hey, you know, John Roderick has and Merlin. I guess what? He was intending have discussed their top ten sports cars on Roderick online. Can we get that list on ATP in here for Marco is Casey as well? Did you did you discuss this with Roderick? Rectify awhile back. We talked about it. Okay. Bright. So anyway, so I put this in the show notes. And then apparently John has added a tweet wherein this was already decided in two thousand sixteen. So would you like to tell me about that, John that's one Roderick reconcilable differences with me? And we discuss this. Another tweeted about it. My list hasn't changed that much. I start. This is the list I put into tweeden his tweet links. So you can't go into super detail. But there are nuances to it. And it was like top ten. I don't think I'd came up to ten, but my list is basically. A describe it. And then we can fill in the film. The variables later, whatever the current mid engine of Ferrari v eight sports car is like whatever the latest model. That's usually on my list. So in this at the time, I was forty eight. But now, it's the hell is the thing called. Yudo eight tribute or something like that. Anyway, whatever that one is the current when I won't keeps changing then the fry for fifty eight because it's the last naturally aspirated ration- of that model line BMW M three. But I mean, the m three that was around in like, the what I always forget the forty six is the one that I like the one that was around. There was new in ninety five ninety six I think that's thirty six. No. I think it's the forty six is the one I like no forty six early two thousand while. I like whatever the one is that has the little like slats by the by the three bed. I don't know what you're rich Segel's three because that's that's an e forty six if you're talking about a little box than that. It's thirty six. Yes. Rich Segel's forty six that's early two thousands. That's the three that I'm talking about Mercedes Essex hundred which I didn't put a year on that. But had varies from years them, don't like them. But what I'm basically saying is the big v twelve ridiculously huge Mercedes sedan. That's like driving a living room that one. I had tesla model s on here in two thousand sixteen. Honestly, I think it would remove that now because I'm really down on tesla angry and scared of the company, and then of course, McLaren f one because. All right for me. I thought the well I have to explain pretty much all of these these see three corvette, which is like the mid to late seventies ish, which by most standards is one of the worst. If not the worst corvette of all time. However, my dad had seventy seven vet for a long time when I was growing up which I probably told that story about fifteen times on the show and on neutral, but the three corvette I would love to have one of those these e thirty two so this is the Nissan three of the X from the early nineteen nineties. I had a ninety one non turbo many many years ago. I love that car. I don't regret selling that car. But I regret selling that car an Aston Martin db s of pretty much any vintage something modern I should say, but Leo be that brand new or five years older ten years old, whatever I'd be fine with it Lamborghini Diablo. I don't care what specific flavor of the DR blow. But that was my ultimate car when I was really. Coming of age when I was a little kid. And and I love that thing. And I would even though I'm sure I would hate to drive it. I would still love to have one either nine five because it's been one of my favorite cards of all time pretty much since the moment. I laid eyes on it. I echo your for, you know, the mid engined Ferrari, the four eighty eight or what have you I echo, you're McClair enough one. And I'd also I would love to have you got Aviran just because I think it would be a cool thing to have as you. So I'm not saying it's pretty cool in person. I don't think overseeing what I'm person. But I do not like that. I know I just feel like it's the spared. No expense version of the automobile. And I kind of respect they spare. No pound. That's for sure. Very no expense. Brutal. All right. Marco hit me. Are you gonna hit my list, of course, Martine on it? That's one of the entries. I begin with quote, Ferrari, whatever. I don't know enough about Ferraris to say which ones you get a for California for this your punishment for putting that on the list. Oh god. Yeah. Because I I know I should I should want them because they're like the driver enthusiasts car, but I don't know about them. So I figured I'd let John pick my Ferrari. Yeah. Current mid engine. Actually, I I would I would I would just wait around the four fifty eight those are your two choices. Okay. Whatever you said that I also. In the like, I like my large fast electric cars. I like that. And so I have model S model three the Porsche take on. Or is it the machine why are you putting model three on the list? Why would you want you have a model s why would you want a model three which is the worst model? S I needed ten. Now, you just three all right, so model, S course, take on and the five I thought like I had one. It was great. And I I haven't tried the new one. Yeah. Everyone's really good. They say, right. And so that would be on the list to consider. I like large stands in the smaller category. I'm very curious about the new tesla roadster not enough to buy them. But it looks pretty cool. I'll also asked Martin whatever, you know. Casey can tell me what Martin to get. And and then also I'm not I've ever been in when I'm not I'm not sure that I would actually enjoy it. But I find the BMW I eight very attractive in person. I think it looks striking it really I would agree with that the other thing I've said this in other places, I think, but the other car that I think is does not photographed early. Well, but I think is gorgeous. In Persian person is the Audi r eight. I. I do not like the look of those on paper. But I think they are very pretty look better in person they do in photos of it is not to my taste. I can't handle the two-tone panel on the side. Yes. It definitely it allows for some pretty ugly color condos, they aren't all ugly. And even when it's not there's a texture difference there that bothers me and then finally in the small fast like kind of enthusiasts category. I have the Porsche Cayman, which I've also never been in. But I've heard they're wonderful to drive and their mid engine, which I've never driven. And so I'm I'm curious about that. The only downside with Cayman is that. You're basically sitting on the ground from what I can tell. And so my final pick is the BMW M to here going to pick a Jeep Wrangler. No. Because like the MTA it's seems very similar to the one that I had and that was a really fun car. And what I what I liked about the one is that it was a small fast sporty car, but that you were sitting at regular sedan height not like sitting on the ground, and the m-2 appears to basically be like the next version of that. And so I'm very curious to possibly ultimately, they'll like, I'm so converted to electric at this point. Why I really want BMW to make is an electric to series. But they don't seem interested in doing that anytime soon. Well, thanks to our sponsor this week hover Eero and clear, and we will see you next week. Now, the show is over. They didn't even mean to begin because it was accidental. Accidental john. Casey would him because it was accident. Accidents does. Fund the show today. S A Y L SS. That's Casey lists OSCE R M anti Marco Arment. KC? Q's? I was summoned to jury duty this week. I recognize this is not a popular opinion. I really hate jury duty. I it makes me what some would call unreasonably angry. I call it perfectly reasonable. I really don't like jury duty. And I recognize why we do it the way we do. I think it's an incredibly broken imperfect system and not the right solution. But that's just me and everyone else seems to care about it a lot more than I do. So I'll just stop my planning. They're going to jury duty makes me very angry. I don't like going. I don't like being there. I especially don't like how much they spend. All this time showing you videos and stuff that thank you for going because I don't think it's dignified to be thanked for something you were forced to attend. That seems insulting at best to legally kidnapped me force me to be there. And then say thanks for coming. Anyway. Last time, I serve jury duty. I I never got to a trial. It just basically made me wait in a jury waiting room to be maybe called to a courtroom for a few days. Eventually, I believe I've even about on the show eventually I was called up for into into a courtroom, and I was kicked out during our dear. Because I said I didn't trust thority. I'd forgotten about that. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Anyway. But the vast majority of the time was not even a courtroom. It was sitting in a jury waiting room with other potential jurors with nothing to do and these are federal courts that I get some into this is the southern district of New York federal court and the federal courts are extremely strict that you cannot bring any kind of Tron IX into the courtroom. And so last into the building even and so as I was sitting there last time in this jury waiting room, I had nothing to do like I had printed out articles to read and I brought like a magazine or two, and I had just totally under provisioned for like how much of a tearful I would need for the amount of time that I was going to be there such an avid reader of novels, plenty of fill your time. Right. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So anyway, the last time I was drowsy underprepared, and I was bored out of my mind, and I was super mad which made it even worse. So this time I wanted to do it right now as John mentioned, a normal person solution to this would be to bring a book, and this time, I did I brought the creativity ink book the drama commended because I said I'm going to bring a book damn it. But I don't like reading books very much. So I wanted more options than that. So for my mental health I wanted. A way to have my two favorite things music and podcasts. Now, you might assume as one would that I was out of luck because you aren't allowed to bring a devices to jury duty, and that makes sense in people's picture of jury duty where they picture you immediately go into a courtroom and sitting and being paying attention you want jurors using their phones during a trial, and that's all true. But that isn't what jury duty is. That's what you're really is. At least in this federal court, I keeping some into because it's random law is that you go and sit in this room for a long time possibly for days without go into a courtroom. So you're basically sitting in a waiting room. I see no harm in having electron IX in that room. So I decided to this time try to push the boundaries a little and see if I could course, something that could play music and podcasts while it was waiting room waiting around to do nothing. And ideally, I was even thinking like. It'd be nice. If I have an ear eater or something. So I wouldn't have to carry around paper books. I have a few e books to read I didn't own any paper books that I really wanted that. I haven't yet. I don't wanna just buy a paper book just to bring here. Like if I have e books that I can read so I'd like to bring the reader if possible and something they can play MP threes, and maybe one device that can do both would be ideal decided to be a lawyer about it. Like, I looked at the exact wording of what the rule was the summons that you get in the mail. It says, and I quote do not bring electron equipment, including cell phones, blackberries, PDA's, laptops, and the like to the courthouse. So of course, my first question was like what's last time? Somebody tried to bring a blackberry or PDA. The courthouse. But like, so it says do not bring electron equipment, including blah, blah, blah, and the like electronic equipment is very broad. But there's a lot of it. That is not like those things like is a digital watch electronic equipment. That's like PDA's lot blackberries. No, what about a fit at one question. What about an e reader is that like a cellphone PDA or laptop? Maybe maybe not. So the good thing is that I called that you have to call the night before listener recording to see if you actually have to go in that day and the phone message had different wording. God it said no pocket knives cell phones, blackberries or internet capable devices are allowed in the last one they killed, but I was gonna say 'cause you were mentioned digital watches. And there is a kind of watch that you can use listen to music and podcasts, but unfortunately, it is internet capable right? So I saw I don't I don't have a pocket. Life that one's easy. You don't have a pocket knife. No. I'm not a knife person. No, cell phones blackberries or internet capable devices. Okay. Now, this is much more specific internet capable. Okay. So nothing with sailor, obviously, probably nothing with WI fi either it's questionable. What they mean by internet capable. But you know, let's say nothing with wifi either. Now, there's also a separate rule that you aren't allowed to have image or sound recording devices in a courtroom, so nothing with a camera or microphones. So before I move on. If you were in this position. What if anything would you bring the obvious answer is some sort of portable turntable. You could bring a five piece band. It's true. There's nothing about musical instruments. Nobody says you can't bring a wedding band entertain the entire waiting room. Can I bring Mike and Jason to have a conversation in front of me about the apple news of the weekend? And the podcasting just bring a bunch of people who sit behind a table and talk. That's awesome. Casey. What what would you bring all kidding aside? I would certainly bring like a backpack full of magazines and novels and so on and so forth. Like if I couldn't bring a kindle than I would bring a series of novels or something like that. So eve reading was the first thing I tried to tackle. So any reader is probably the easiest thing to get away with the problem is no kindle as ever been made. That doesn't have your wifi Siler or both. I was gonna say they're all in track. Himbal? Yes. Now, the old Sony readers were neither of those things. The owner is would pass this test. But I believe I mailed mine to you John years ago as part of packing material with other kindles around I had one Sony reader forever ago, and you can't really buy them quickly these days. So I thought me a kindle would probably not pass the test. But what matters isn't whether something has wifi, but whether a courtroom security guard is likely to know that it has wifi. So I figured I could actually probably get away with a kindle, but what I really wanted. Ideally, I figure like trying to carry a bunch of stuff in. There was risky. I wanted to only try to get one thing past them that was a questionable trying device. So I really wanted to kindle with a headphone, Jack. So I can also play music and podcasts from it. Now. The only problem is I gave all those John too. Like, many kindles have headphone jacks. I don't own them right now. The only I've right now, the only go I own is a first generation Acis, not the current the current ones the second generation and the first always has no audio output at all. So if all I could do for me was the reading functions and just replace like a book. Well, bring a book like that's not that big of a deal. If I'm if devices only gonna replace one book it isn't worth the risk if it can also be an audio player. Now, I looked the newest kindles all support bluetooth audio output that could be great except that the only support this for audible audiobooks bought in the audible app. Kindle, so previous kindles back when the headphone jacks. You could side load music onto its memory by plugging into USB to your computer. You could put music in a folder, and it could play it. Modern kindles can't do that anymore. Apparently. And I don't I don't actually I didn't actually have one that could do this test with. But the information I could find basically said they will only place from the audible app, you can't low stuff on them anymore. So I couldn't like load podcasts so between that and you know, the my situation here, I figured readers. We're not gonna work out. They have too little upside for too much risk so decided to stick with paper from my reading needs and only try to solve for music and podcasts electrically the curric- modern solution as John Lewis to a minute ago would probably be an apple watch with airports. But the apple watch has wifi. Some of them have solar, and they all have microphones and the apple watch is instantly recognizable to most people and most people know that apple watches are of like phones and that phone like features. So I think any security. Guard. It would be a pretty high risk like they're probably not gonna have watched. Because they know an apple watch is like a phone and bluetooth again. I wasn't sure if I could really rely on that, you know, it is it's not usually used to provide an interest service. So it can be it's also it is a wireless communication method. And I figured like the guards probably wouldn't be willing to debate this with me. So I actually I thought like a little music player would be ideal. I actually have a little Sony Music player that is otherwise perfect, except that's very obviously an audio recorder. Because what it really is. It has these two giant microphones on top. And it has a giant red record button on the front so figured that was too risky because yarn led to record stuff. So clearly that was not a good idea. So what I need a really wasn't ipod. You know, something that looks old and basic enough that any security guard recognize it as just a music player, and they would know this has no internet or phone capabilities whatsoever. I was hoping you were gonna say a Rio PM three hundred like I had way back. Or mad? Did you were you want to know Matt people? I don't remember. I had one of the ones that was a big hard drive. But it wasn't. It wasn't the brand. It was another brand. I forget I forget we wanna laws, but it was some of the brand. What was it was like, creative something something? No mad is that. Right. You know, what I'm thinking of the one of the creative nomad jukebox, which which is the one little fat disc, man. And it had like a five gig hard-drive on it. Yeah. Yeah. I had one that was by different company that hard drive, and I had one that played MP3. CDR's, which is much better. Anyway, I decided ipod is the way to go here. People recognize ipods. They know they look like they know what they are. And what they aren't. And they know it's clearly just an ipod. Right. That's what I wanted problem is we don't have a working ipod. And most tip has road ipod mini. But it's I don't even think we have a thirty pin cable anymore. I don't think I could if I wanted to and I'm pretty sure the battery most ipods are still around today have batteries are like ten or fifteen years old. And so they can't hold a charge anymore, and you can actually still today by new ipods that are refurbished with new batteries. The problem is visually two hundred dollars and up like the an ipod Nanno refurbish with new battery is one hundred and eighty dollars for most places as small price. Depend. But they retailed for one fifty when they were new like they're actually more than MS RPM now and ipod classic. They're even more classes are like over three hundred dollars for like one in good shape that doesn't new battery. And I also thought looking at the ipod nano availability the seventh generation in the latest one is the one that looks like a tiny. I phone like it has a home button and a big touchscreen. And so I figure the security guards, Mike. Not let that one through because was never very popular like, but that's not came out. I phones we're taking over. So it wasn't very popular. And it looks like a small phone. So there's actually a risk over the one. I really wanted was the fifth generation that was the last one that had the iconic ipod Nanos shape with with the screen on top and the buttons and a circle below it. Like, that's the last one that looks like the shape. Ipod was the seventy generation ipod nanna or this Fisher, the Netto. Netto problem is those are those two hundred dollars for refurbished one with a new battery, and I was going to spend two hundred dollars on something that the next time I need this thing is probably gonna be when they call me back in another five years and five years from now with that battery slow work and more importantly, will I still be able to sync files to an ipod using itunes in five years. Probably not all sit back and appreciate the fact that you're even considering making a one time two hundred dollar purchase for a single day activity that may repeat every five years. Correct. Appreciate I it felt rich to me like what it's like to be Marco. So honestly, the price really put me off if not if it was like fifty dollars. I would done it. No question. Two hundred felt a little ridiculous for this purpose. But the good thing is I am not the first person to ever wanted a cheap ipod. The ipod spawned a thousand clones and many of them are still around today and still being made still brand new and because of his twenty nineteen they cost basically nothing. So I'll put in the show notes the one I chose. I bought the AGP tech MP3. player. Eight gigabyte bluetooth four point upgraded as zero to t law. So sport music player with FM radio voice recorder expandable of two hundred twenty eight gigs for kids in adult voice recorder. So this one in part because it looked very similar to an ipod nano also in part because I was ordering it on a Saturday. And it was guaranteed to arrive on Sunday. And in part because it was twenty six dollars. I should clarify the price has since gone through twenty nine dollars. But when I bought it with twenty six dollars now John noticed a few problematic, keywords, it does have bluetooth, and it doesn't clued a little microphone to make voice recordings. But neither of those things were visually apparent the microphone as I don't even test where it was. But there's a small hole on the back of it. I think that's the microphone it might not even be it might just be like it might just use a microphone. That's on the ear buds. If you happen to be using a TRS ear buds. So I don't know. I never tried to let your quarter still recording everything and transmitting it back to a day centre and China the whole time you were there. So maybe. So anyway, Bloomberg said anyway, right? Yeah. Exactly. So because the voice recorder aspect of it was not visually apparent at all. And I wasn't even sure even had a microphone I figured that would probably not be a problem. So I loaded up, and there's no sync software to be had you just you plug it in, and it's a USB device and you copy stuff over to folders on it. It's great I lit up with music. I put some podcasts on it. And I wrapped an old wired pair of white apple ear buds around it. Like, it's two thousand five. Brought to the courthouse. Now, they were very very clear in the instructions don't even bring your phone into the building. Just don't even bring it with you that day at all or leave it in your car. So I let locked in my in my glove box. 'cause I wasn't gonna not bring obviously didn't. I gotta get there. Somehow. Don't leave your phone in your car. That's not. I mean, you've probably got away with it. 'cause you know, whatever and the Tesla's kind of climate control, but that's bad for your phone only phone your car. Sorry anyway. So I left the blocks locked up the first thing to do was figure out where to park I had to go into a big municipal city parking garage. And I have my phone until a parked. But then I had to leave my phone in the car. So the first thing to do was figure out how to pay for this parking. And there's signs up saying remember your parking spot. My usual solution of this would be a take a picture of the parking. Not that. I would at least usually take a picture of the sign by the elevator. That told me what floor I was on. And whether it's like east or north or whatever, and I do this thing. So I like I like my short term memory for these things gone like the skill. I have to remember parking spots is gone because I haven't used it in what ten years, so I took out a notebook and a pencil which I had to buy for the. This is why you need the Mike Hurley and your life got a bunch of expensive hipster notebooks. And a million pens. Yeah. Fortunately, have tiff, but our taste aren't they don't overlap that much in this area gigantic sparkly fountain pen to write down what parking spot urine. Yeah. So I took out a brand new book friend who mechanical pencil, and I had to write down like my parking spot and everything could you just look for the big red tesla. I mean, how many other red Tesla's were there in the parking lot at the time. It was I was lost man. It was terrible. And so anyway, so I I eventually found the pay station the elevators and everything and I paid and I couldn't use Apple Pay credit card like animal and then. I had to find the courthouse from the parking garage, which was about a block and a half or two away. And so I walked out of the parking garage. And basically immediately got lost like I. I walked up and down the block went different like where the hell I I already forgotten even the name of the street. The courtroom was on. No, you shouldn't just printed mapquest directions. Like, we did back in this house used to do you just need a Hagstrom is what you need. Should should driven there without navigation too. Yeah. Right. And so eventually, I found somebody was walking by in a suit, and I figured he courthouses. So he's wearing a suit on a weekday morning. The quotas, and I couldn't have lucked out with better guy. He points like cross dagley across the street. And he's like that one's county that one city and around the corner from that one is federal like great. So that's amazing. So I I went to the around the corner one eventually found the federal thank God. I would never would've founded on my only goes it was I was going to walk around and very long time before finding that. This is finally I'm a human without a phone. I'm totally lost. Finally, I find this place. I of course, I I'm so mad when I get to do all this. I wanted to take a picture of myself outside the outside the building flipping it off and realize I had no camera with me and couldn't do that. So I'm like, oh here we go. Again. You still flip off the building even with there's no camera to record it. It's not the same. Anyway. So. So the get in go through security, the security guards seem pretty nice, and you know, take everything out to everything. He he glanced at the MP three player if initially said a quick glance, and he said, no, let's electron ex. But of course, I was trying to I'm like, it's just an MP three player, and he stopped for a minute. And he looked more closely at it because you could tell you like like, it's like TSA like they get they have just the same thing. A million times to everybody who comes in their sick of it. Then they're not really thinking when I say it he actually took a look at it. And he realized it looks like an ipod nano with white headphones, and he he like asked the garlic in the next lane over like, hey, we allow these now right? And so you mumble to each other. And then you wave is at all, right? It's fine. So I had it. I got it through. I was able to bring nice an ipod like MP3. player into the courthouse. And it was fine. So I can tell you finally with my day of using. It in the in the waiting room looks. Fortunately, they sent us home early. And then we were done, and I don't have to go back because it turns out this week. There weren't a lot of cases needing juries in White Plains. So it was a short. I only actually needed it for like two thirds of day. But in my two-thirds of a day of using it, I can tell you my review of the GP tech as zero to t twenty six dollar MP3. player and twenty nineteen please carry on it looks and feels like eight twenty six dollar device. The body of it is that like that like cheap soft touch rubbery plastic talking about. Yeah. Like, it's like every every super cheap device is made from that. Now, the screen is horrendous. Looking like the resolution is terrible. The viewing angle I don't think there is a good angle of you. If there's I couldn't find it. None of the buttons switches feel remotely good to use the buttons only work about two thirds of the time. And lots of navigation just requires like, you know, oh, just push it again like kicking machine like just push it. Again, it will solve the problem doesn't support the remote control clicker buttons on the ipod headphones for like volume up and down or play paws, which I immediately missed for listening to podcast. I had using a command line tool, of course, I had pre processed the files to bake in smart speed. Of course, you did. But they were all still at one x and there is no easy thirty second skip forward and back buttons. So it wasn't really ideal for podcasts. The device has some other issues as well. Upon boot up about one of the five times, it says, no files found just terrifying. When you've loaded this up to go to jury duty. But then you wait a second. And they're all there. Sometimes it doesn't resume from sleep and needs to be power cycled when you do this. This is one of many conditions. I found where it will lose the position in whatever. You're listening to which is another thing that made listening to podcasts fairly non ideal on this device. It does support video playback, but it only plays one twenty eight by one sixty AM V files. What's I if you look AM via computer actually magic video? No, it's actually a format. That's like it's made for like cellphones, and like certain things use a certain certain type of chips at Optum is to play only that and it came with a sample video. So I was able to video like an FM peg. It's like what is this? What are the specs in this? But I have been. Unable to encode any other videos that will actually play for whatever it's worth if you play video normally to get out of what you're doing. You would hit the the menu button the 'em. But on top if you do that it shows you a menu. But none of the options are like quit. It took me a long time to figure out how to exit video playback mode. One of the options is update playlist. That's how you leave. Oh my goodness. So for video not so good podcasts. Not so good for music. It's fine. Not great. But fine. To play or pause. You often need to wake it up. I which often involves multiple button presses that often get lost or ignored. And my favorite thing is a Justin volume to change the volume which is a fairly common action that you have to do quickly. You have to wake it up so hit player. Pause. Maybe one to five times over the course of seconds to wake it up. Then you have to there's a volume button on the bottom. But if you push nothing happens used to hold it down for a few seconds to enter the volume menu. Then you hit up or down a few times to your desired volume level. Then you like hit play to be like entered a Senate. So this thing is pretty much a piece of garbage, but it worked, and I was able to slowly and clumsily listen to music and podcasts while I waited around all day to do nothing jury duty. And that was totally worth twenty six dollars to me. So while this terrible product and absolute terms, I would actually say it's a pretty good value. And I still I find it amazing just like in modern life that I decided I want an MP three player, I found one in a few seconds. I ordered it on a Saturday, and it was delivered on Sunday for twenty six dollars. That's pretty cool. That is pretty cool should've tried an ipod shuffle. Because I know about the bad ones really old, and it won't charge. But like the shuffled everything you described better retains your play back position, easy to change the volume wakes up instantly does all the thing is supposed to do and is much less likely to be flagged as Trix by random. Security jarred guard. That's what I would have gone with. But I didn't have one how to shuffle in the house somewhere. No. The only I pod we own is this old many haven't all the other ones you sold them. All I never had that many. I had I think we had a total of two shuffles ever and one of them at least one of them died. I don't know whether having one we had tips ipod, mini, and I had a pod video the five G. I think whatever the first video I had that one. And that's it. I never owned Nanno neither tiff and I never owned any other classical for the video. And that was it. And that one I think that when died like ten years ago or something I it's died. Not recently probably could have found a Chinese knock off ipod shuttle. But then that wouldn't have actually worked actual would work. Yeah. It's kind of amazing to screw that up that badly and the volume changing thing when you go into the volume menu and change it. Do you get to hear what the new volume sounds like a while? You're changing it. Yes. But you have to hit the enter play button to exit the volume menu. So you holding onto this for the next jury duty experience, I I might as well, I mean, it's more likely to work in five years than an ancient ipod. Well, let's put it in the boxes jury duty and you'll open another one was being exploited battery. The plastic will all be like liquefied? Now, I'm also wondering if you were to do this again tomorrow for the sake of discussion, would you be spending anytime splitting your podcast MP threes like in every minute. So it's easier to seek effectively back to where you left off or like Mark to yourself where you've left off because you say, they lose your place a lot, and it's just not a very good music players. So that that's something. My dad used to do all the time with audio books that he would download like VM three or something like that that he would slice them up. So that instead of having each file like I dunno a chapter or something like that. Instead each file would be like thirty seconds or a minute or what have you? So that. So that it was easier for him to come back to where he was that was going to be my next move. Like, I mean, so I went to jury duty for one day, and then was was not needed after that. And so I had a very short term of of using this. If I were going to be there longer. I think I would probably actually then at that point go by ipod Nanno like it's spend two hundred dollars. Like if I was going to be there for a long time. And I would have an opportunity to use this more than once. I would I would probably go that round. I also I think if I if I knew like if I if I go back a dude again, and I didn't do that option. There's this. There's a Sony player that is basically the version of my little nice only record that isn't a recorder like it's like, the it's like the ipod Nanos version of my little audio recorder that I have it's at the same generation has lots of the same parts. I would it's like seventy five dollars. So it's more. But I would probably try that first before I did before. I did this any any crazy? To make my twenty six one work that much better. Because it is it seems like it's a nicer built thing there have used a little bit mixed. But the problem is like a new MP3. player in twenty nineteen. This is not a high volume market. Like there are digital audio players. There are like portable audio players that are audio files. Like for high end audio listener that support like high bit rate stuff and everything, but those all look like phones because they all have these. They're all at the size of phones. And they have they have like a big touchscreen on them. There's actually very few that aren't touchscreens. But I wanted something look more like an ipod I figured it'd be more likely to get through. Whereas something that looks just like a phone, which is all the high end models. I figured that was not likely to get through. Did you read any of your book? No.

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Starting 9 Episode 151 - All-Decade Draft

Starting9

1:55:46 hr | 10 months ago

Starting 9 Episode 151 - All-Decade Draft

"Welcome back to start a nine episode one fifty you one bird first podcast of the new year which means that it's the first podcast of the new decade which means that this is the podcast where we whole the official starting being nine all decade drafts up up. Give it to me asked for it. You need it you wanted. Did you got it. We had the all time starting nine draft. It was probably our most popular. podcast of Twenty nineteen created. Rifts created discussion created drama created controversy. It created discussion and I expect created a winner winner out of your boy deeply. But we don't need to talk about that. We don't the the controversy that came out of that draft is that Jay clearly one I clearly came in second. Dallas came third yet. The voters The starting nine Twitter Account the grounds crew voted Dallas to winter. Somehow even though he typically have the worst team diehard baseball fans. That's neither here nor there because it's a it's a new decade so we're going to leave. Dallas is fraught team in the past. This is the all decade laughed episode. I have been I mean. I'm I for whatever reason I am way more nervous for the all decade draft and I was for the all time. That's because you had no idea how big and important it was. I I was at the moment and I didn't understand it. I legitimately started talking to my wife about this probably like two days ago at dinner like we're at Rick Korean barbecue and I like I pulled up. I'm not even going to say I pulled up numbers from two players and I was like played the fucking you you know like a or B blank slate. No picture game with my wife like who would you like. What are you doing Dallas? She has no fucking idea. Just order order. The CIA Dole had shut your mouth like I have just been so like ooh. I'm nervous I'm scared and I don't know why because I like you said though we're putting my victory in the past. It's a clean slate. I I still would like to be able to tap into the grounds crew. Momentum's grounds crew. Just know that I have you setting on my shoulder right now whispering greatness into my ear so I'm here for you. I mean he's already campaigning for People to vote for his team and they don't even know what the team is yet. we will be doing the draft a little bit later in the podcast but for right now so we determine the draft order yes and we will give a shout out to Jay who We thought we thought I thought we were determining the draft order prior to hitting record in the podcast and then when we saw the reaction that everyone gave to the draft order. We realized that this should have. I've been on the podcast Jay There was an automated draft order. Jay Got the first pick If it were me I would have said fuck you guys. That's just what it is is J.. Hey for the sake of content is saying let's do it over so we can capture this reactions on the podcast so we will be doing the draft order for the starting nine nine all decade draft. Right I'M GONNA need footage of this J.. Hey you get that camera up there. I need zoom in all right. That's GonNa Trust sons a bitches. Jay also with a brand new haircut looks handsome as fuck. Yeah I thought he had a really high pony but no he just lopped it off all right here. It is you guys can see it on the screen Dallas the grand battery on. You've got the background SPLUR- you guys are going to have to believe me. No your screen. Looks like Japanese porn. Right now I hold on alone blur my background at the very least. And if you guys can't see it then talk tough titties as they say I go okay. That was always. The great is in the first slot. Jared not the official draft but in the pre determination harmonization Dallas the great the rocket slash blogger jared and the sheriff. Okay all right. All right. This determine ugly. This is basically a lottery for Mike Trout. Yes by poems. Sweating legit sweat. Oh boy here here you. I am going to select randomize and generates the draft order guy. And it's going it has been generated. What is it in pick number one though rocket Auger August go bullshit awesome gone? Let's go in the two hole. I'm not sure whether there's two or three is better at this point but in the two hole is me. Yeah okay. I'm good with that and at the turn Dallas with the first turn so baked wrap snake draft so Dallas will pick three and four. Jared will pick one. I will pick in the middle every round. This is great. This is different from the order. Last ask time Yup no wait a macklin player. Can't win with one player. Nobody gives a shit buck drought. I'm actually interested to see how Dallas draft looks now that he's not getting trout which I think everybody just kind of assumed what happened even though he didn't know the draft order. That's great. Okay Jared One Justin to Dallas three coming up in a little bit. This is this is huge and you have to do any prep for that. Pick who Is there anything you guys want to talk about in particular you know. There's there's been some socks split Robert to a multi year deal. This is great. It's six years fifty million. This is great. When prospects are getting branded up I didn't see any tweets about the breaded? Chicken taste. You do that on Twitter Dallas. I didn't I didn't I was not able to throw that I was dealing with a little family issue. Jared I've got small children that vomit and shit on themselves so I've been. I've been knee-deep elbow deep in that. But I look we've seen this before. We actually sat down with one of the first guys to really kind of go through this right Evan. Longoria remember the deal he signed. What was that seven year? You're twenty five mil piece somewhere around there is that is that accurate something like that. And then he signed a one hundred million dollar deal after that. Yeah sure later but it was about locking up that early young talent doing and this is this is along that same vein and for the White Sox look man. They're coming they're coming. They're they're Kinda they're Kinda done they're done. Fiddle fucking around. Can we use the l word with the white sox. What what you think are the The white sox are they are. They legit the appeared to try to want to be when they grow look legit and it seems like right. Now look man. You know where I'm going to start right. You know where I'm going to start right on the mound. They feel like they have done a pretty good job. Uh of fortifying a rotation especially in a division that has kind of seen some shuffling they appear to be. I don't know I mean front runner. I don't know but they appear to go right in the reason the F. Word they appear to be right in the thick of that AOL central race just based on on what it looks like on paper at this point and imagine the J. wants to use the F.. Word as it pertains to the twenty twenty white sox just yet is that. Is that a word that you feel comfortable using J. as a as a central representative here the F. Word what's the F.. Word no no no no no no no no no no no no I mean I think right now you still have to view them as the third best team in the division third third best really. Yeah now that could obviously change. I don't think the margin is great but I just they have improved dramatically. But I mean to me. There's still a lot to to be proven in the players that were on the roster prior to these additions bengals player like like away. Jimenez for example is a very sexy. See Name and very intriguing. But there's not like a huge net positive for them yet right now. It took Moncada a year or two or three to be able to do that. So maybe this is as year and obviously obviously. There's every reason to be excited about what they're doing but like I to me it's impossible. The twins one hundred. What was it one hundred and one games last year? One hundred two games last year the White Sox they have not added twenty five wins worth of improvement this off season so I know the twins are going to take a step back but I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves if we're thinking that the white sox are somewhere near mid-nineties wind team which I think you'd have to. You'd have to be considered the front runner right right. But that's why that's why set on paper. They look really good. And that's why I said I don't know if it's a front runner. I don't think it's a front runner but I think that they look damn good like to just automatically slot them like your definitively into three spot. You can't compete and you're not going to come out of those teams like I'm not ready to say that that's no. They're very much going to third. I don't think it's much but I think right now like I'm not comfortable putting them ahead of either of those other teams. They've closed the gap considerably but the gap was pretty wide. Entering the off season. To sure was sure was This is a big piece of their future. I think the MLB twitter account had graphic the other today about the long list of players that the white sox have locked up through like twenty twenty. Three twenty twenty four beyond that. This is a team that is. That's why I feel like twenty twenty might not be the year but this is a team that's going to have plenty of time to Gel together together to grow together and this is not like hey going into twenty twenty. We're going for in twenty twenty. I mean they're yes they're going to you better in two thousand twenty but this is not the off season where they're going to have their their major overhaul and then that's it like this is a group that they're going to continue to build on an ad to and supplement with with a major league ready talent beyond just you know the prospects that they've had come up through their system Now they've got some. They've got some names. They've got some big leaguers that are getting mixed in here And there are also securing their future so that this is not they're they're they're basically building a window they've constructed a window That hopefully the white sox will be able to contend in this window. And you know when you have the white DOC window opening. I think it also coincides with potentially the Indians window closing. So that's you still have to be better than the twins but the Indians Sean's window is coming to a close during the same window that the white sox hope to win in there no Apple Pie on the window sill no more J. 's Shit Cheetahs gobbled up in Sun non-timely when you are talking about the Franscisco endure trade like trading lindor. Doesn't I mean it. It doesn't help. Hit doesn't make the tires on. I mean you've already moved Kluber. You're entertaining the notion of moving clemenger like anytime you're in even involved in those kind of conversations. I understand that you know whether or not the players move obviously impacts but anytime you're at a point where you're entertaining those conversations stations. I can't think that you are in a position where that window is open or openning or game like no no especially because you have to look the other pieces that were key cogs in the Indians window and that you know if you are talking about trading club injure the dodgers are interested. Obviously they need pitching If you're looking looking at trading Lynn door that's your. That's your franchise player. kipness is not the player that he once was Joe Rem. I think it's safe to say that we've seen his best season season So yeah you know I. It's it's it's looking like. The time is now for the White Sox to capitalize capitalize on the Indians. Taking a step back to take that step forward But then you also still have to consider the twins who are looking to say. Hey you know where last year was not not a fluke. We're looking at. We're looking to retool and get back at it next year and that's exactly what they have done and you talk about windows. Opening and closing the Minnesota twins have gone consign richhill and Homer Bailey. And what's interesting about. Those signings are one. Just starting with Rachel. You're not going to get him. Intel Intel what June. July somewhere around there. June is like an optimistic. Yeah right so you're obviously paying for high-end productivity or what you hope to be high in productivity in a condensed body of work so when Rachel comes out and starts cranking they're gonNA they're gonNA walk. Richil chill ready to rock. And I think that's what that's about but the homer Bailey sign solve with homer. Bailey didn't Oakland. He pitched very well in my opinion he pitched well and and he has earned himself another opportunity. Here in Minnesota and you talk about fortifying rotations started there on the hill in Chicago. Same being here. That's what homer Balian richhill represent is a team. Look up in simply you know what they're capable of. You had some guys break out Max Kepler my guy and and now they've got arms that they can they can depend on heading into the season You know when you talk about the twins obviously last year the strength was the homers homers but kind of their rotation and. I'm not gonNA use the word scary but you can definitely use the word deep. I mean they're like eight guys deep. It's kind of like a next man up type deal when you have a rotation where you're GonNa have to decide you know you've got a five man rotation you've got eight arms that could potentially Be Holding spots there. It's a good spot to be in a good spot to be in and also with Richhill the chill getting close to forty still doing the damn thing with his spin rate that he's got going on. It's almost a blessing in disguise where it's like. Yeah we signed a guy that can't pitch Russ until Jaren. Well guess what that's probably when you're going to need them. So that's that's the thing is that becomes like an injection right. It's like that free agent acquisition that deadline in acquisition. That everybody is looking around wondering do we need this. How would this guy help? Where do we need help That's that's probably an ideal spot for them. Because you're looking at that. Rotation what would it be Berrios and odor is yet top right and you're gonNA plug You'RE GONNA put homer somewhere in the middle maybe towards the back end. And then they've got some young young guys that they're going to be reliant upon guys with less than a year worth of time under their belt and they brought back Pineda had the steroid suspension but was pretty fucking good for them before he he He ate that Eighty game piece or whatever it was. Yeah so I mean it's it's again that's kind of for me. That was kind of part of the shuffle that I was alluding to in that division. Is You know some of those arms have moved. There's just it's it's GonNa look a little different. It's GONNA look different. It is going to look a little different but I don't know we'll see. I think one of the main points that I keep coming back to when we're trying to project how good or lack thereof These teams are going to be in twenty. Twenty tell me what kind of baseballs were union. Because that's been such a so I've been talking to so many and I'm sure you have as well as baseball season starts to ramp up. We start to get really excited about spring. Training pitchers and catchers folks are are just a nats ask over a month away. We are just barely nearly a month away from pitchers and catchers reporting and I have been talking Ad Nauseam about the baseball. And it's unfortunate but that is I mean again. You're talking about like like you know. Tommy La Stella. Thomas still wants to know what kind of baseball playing with this I. I don't know what it is with Dallas and Thomas Stella but there is something going on behind the scenes where these guys like. I don't know if he has some sort of like investment in his his career with A. It's very strange like Fletcher. Fletcher my guy too. I still go because seriously. He equalled will his career home run total in one year last year. And that's why I point him out is because I say he would like to know because you're talking about a guy like Mir fifteen homer guy in my thirty homer guy who am I like what what are you going to be getting who knows But but with that being said it is a huge. It is a huge huge question. Mark It's a huge question mark especially I mean it's a it's a it's an executives nightmare because when you're trying to construct trucker roster and it's like okay. Well we we lack here in. Its okay well if you lack offensive if you lack some pop you know you need a lefty. FD To combat the the right hand pitching. It's like okay. Well are the guys that got the popper. They'll legit or was that a product of last season. And you know I. It's that's I guess guests where you still have the crossover between the analytics departments and you still have your scouts where you computer pewter can't tell you that a computer can't tell you though certain types of things so it'll be interesting to see how teams approach their their roster construction and and WHO's making it out of Out of spring training. You have to fill up those twenty three twenty four twenty five roster spots. WHO's getting those jobs we gotta find out The nats speaking of going for the fucking nats are like. Hey listen we are not going to go quietly into the night we understand that there. There hasn't been a repeat world series champion since the nine hundred ninety nine two thousand New York Yankees. But guess what will Harris Daniel Hudson Eric themes that's in addition to going out and bringing back Strasbourg. I mean this is a team that said They're saying to their fans. Okay we got our first world series title as a franchise here in DC WE'RE NOT GONNA fall back on that and say well we got one so we we can kind of sit back and do whatever we're GONNA do They can now say. Hey if even if we don't actually go out there and perform in two thousand nineteen you you cannot then go to the front office or whomever say you didn't even fucking try. They are right. What's great about this dude? is they locked up. Strasbourg like you said. And you know we saw first hand. What the starting pitching can do for a club when it's on and when you've got actual viable horses and for that nats to be where they were early on in the season because of a lack of a bullpen and then to see the bullpen? Sort of turn itself around and turn it on when it needed to at the most crucial time and then to go ahead and say you know what we actually liked what we saw We're we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA have some of that we'll harass he of the sub one era in the post season. We're going to need jaw on our swan. And that's exactly what they did. They went in locked up. What was conceivably a weakness for them for the better part of their season in until it until it really mattered? And now you've got another guy added to that bullpen. A and it's not only just a a great arm and a great bullpen presence down there pretty solid individual as well pretty solid character in. We'll hairs because because you gotta think about this man. There is no doubt that highlight reel that they play celebrating that championship. We'll Harris is going to be on. That highlight reel. Would he ain't going to be wearing a Nazi uniform. There's going to be tough going to read. That's that's GONNA be tough. I mean it's not it's not just edit around that part it's not like it was an important part of the game. Big Yikes Jay What do you how do you how would you grade the Washington nationals offseason pursuit of a repeat world series title solid B plus. What do you think they could have done that? They haven't I'm not. I'm sure that there really wasn't move. That I mean I guess I guess the only also also bringing back random like. I don't think you can say they've had an a plus offseason if you lose an MVP candidate like I. Just don't I know it was a lot of money but I didn't think yeah. Yeah by default. I don't think you can. You can give them better than a certain grade when you lose arguably your best player but everything around I side. They say saint thank an a minus. Yes Oh if. They signed Donaldson on Leggy three year. Ninety million dollars eighty five dollars. Donaldson's awesome get more years for four hundred plus. Yeah yeah I mean that would boost to that would boost it for me. Obviously Donaldson's not run. Don't but that would be a pretty damn good Follow up Donald is going to get his money. I mean Donaldson Right now is sitting back Jack and you know the nationals have have done their their job of At least having a plan B. They've gone with their plan B before they're planning in In signing infielders in the in the scenario where Josh Donaldson does not sign with the nationals. But if he is to do that. Josh Donaldson is comfortably sitting back. Saying here's my price. Let me know when you want to meet it. Don't WanNa meet it then. Guess what we have other suitors that are are are more than interested in having my services and paying for said services. So that's kind of where we're and the Josh Donaldson sweepstakes. You know what jared all try to get you involved volved on this. I'll try to get you in on this but you and I need to come up with. I'm GONNA come with an object something that I want so that when JD signs for one hundred million because he just bought his mom Amasi karate well she had all she had to do was quit smoking credit to her because she fucking Neil that two years maserati up son but when he signs for four hundred plus us we I think we are less money four hundred. We deserve something. I feel like we just something. Yeah just a little. I'm interested in the in the new in the new track man. Indoor Golf Simulator So I put that on his radar. So should that happen. I I feel like that's something. We should receive as just collateral helping promote. Yeah I'll think of something Maybe maybe maybe a six TV would be nice. Maybe I'll maybe I'll do. TV number six. Maybe there's a a pair of Jordan's that I might want to get your. You don't don't WanNa you don't WanNa blow your load pace it out right time. Yeah I wanNA think about it. I want to think about those. The first things that came to mind Of and that's really been it in terms of baseball news. So yeah you know what there was this one little thing that I did see a did come with. Is it Roman. It was it. Did it have to do with Roman. Is You bring up Roman because I said because I said come is that why I think it's just more along the lines of it makes it makes sense to To talk about Roman because shoutout to Roman for being one of the sponsors are starting nine. Yeah I mean if if that's something that's on your mind let's there's tell the folks about Roman jared. I'd love to read. That's how that's going to get done. Yeah sure sure not not a problem not a problem. That's because most guys have tried different ways to last longer but thinking about. Oh baseball doesn't always work. No in fact thinking about baseball makes me come faster. I can't feel like you're having me thinking about going deep. That's it's probably not That's not conducive to me waiting this at bat out. 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So that's why jared repeated rated Roman dot com slash starting and then he repeated it again he said Roman dot com slash starting. That's where you go to get the deal so it's ironic. Ah I don't know if that's the right word. It's probably not but jared when people are told things once and they don't listen and they offend again for a second time. There's probably going to be some people that are upset about it. There's probably going to be some people that have some issues with it and I don't know if you've been paying. I don't know I know you do radio and I don't know if you've caught wind. What has happened in our beloved game of Major League Baseball But there are some rumblings because as we all well know there's a club kind of had their feet held very close to the fire Since it was brought to light that they may have been that they were indeed using some alternate methods to compete during live baseball game. Action was the Houston Astros but but there are many many many other teams guilty of attempting executing whatever. Whatever you WANNA call it? An effort to cheat will just say that word cheat okay because the efforts being but there was the report levy today by the athletic The Great Ken Rosenthal and his partner at the Athletic Evan. Do you know how do you how do you the last name Georgina. It's it's a C- at Drellich. It's a C. H.. Search sound like like be okay like Drellich got it. Yes yes so. I don't know if you'd call window but looks like some folks are not happy with the New York Yankees. Looks like some folks are not definitely currently. They are definitely not happy with the Boston. Red Sox Now I missed that one. Yeah I'm I'm just I'm just Kinda I'm just wondering what your thoughts on this because granted thoughts Dallas. You know what there's a love to share my thoughts. It's above to share my thoughts on the matter number one The Red Sox shouldn't have done this. It's a no no but I will say though is that I know people are trying to draw comparisons to what the Houston Astros were. We're caught doing Had A caller on the radio show today call in and trying man's plain to me. What's happening is if I don't know what's happening? The caller was wrong. The caller is trying trying to say that there was no difference. There is a big difference. The Astros had their own fucking system. They had cameras in center field that they own John Operate that we're zooming in on the catchers crotch for the signs that there were then relayed to monitor's setup by these sketchy sketchy astros employees there were then relayed to hitters at home plate via a buzzing electronic bandaids via trash cans via Whistling whatever you WANNA do That's what they were doing. The Red Sox completely different We're going to the video room where players are allowed to go and watch their at bats. you know if a guy strikes out on They WANNA see pitch sequences they can do that You WanNa go and see. See All this guy you know I I just punched out on a on a change up. Look and where I I thought it was. I thought it was a ball. Where was it you WANNA see? You know if you just freaked out on an empire was design asshole for doing that or was that justified. You're allowed to go look at the video of that but in the process of going to look at these videos The Red Sox were also looking to see They were looking to decode signs So if you're here's the big thing with and I'm not the grounds crew smart baseball fans fans I'm more talking about the people on the outside that casually take in baseball or that they just want to jump in the fray because they see cheating and they want to pile on Stealing Signs is legal. If I am standing at second base and I'm looking into the catcher and with my own two eyes I can decode code your signs. I can relay the signs. However I want discreetly to the hitter at the plate and that is legal that is not something that there is a rule to protect against from happening? That's part of the game. where it is illegal is where the red sox got caught in two thousand seventeen using the apple watches which is Kinda just lazy? I mean that's really. The Apple Watch thing was essentially the same thing you did one thing. I'm not saying it's not cheating lazy because it was the same thing as looking in the video for to decode signs and then they would just relay it to whoever in the dugout wearing the apple. Watch and then they would relate to whoever But the thing about the Astros and the Red Sox the red SOx realty signs unless there's a runner on second base With the Astros they can relate assigns whenever because they were using the trash can banks are using the electronic band AIDS. Whatever like I like I said it like I said group text exchange though we can't just we can't just it's not just second base because runners at first base? Also do this so yes runner at first but the runners on base. Yes you need the second base or sometimes I based So yes what the red sox did was cheating but with the Astros were doing was essentially. Burder was the red sox were doing was like. I don't even know like a robbery or something like it wasn't something where they're not in the same stratosphere sphere. Every team has a video room so and you are so naive if you think that the red sox were the only team that was doing a lot of teams a majority of teams are probably doing this. The Red Sox were targeted because they won the world series however in the report. The same exact athletic leaded report. They said it would have been impossible for the red sox to have done this. At any point during the postseason this was a regular season thing which doesn't make it right but if you want to discredit their championship run and you want to you. Know You WanNa John Boy and look at the division series and world series and they doing it here where they're doing it there. No it was physically impossible because it was sort of like a gentlemen's agreement that this wasn't going to happen in two thousand eighteen. There was no person. There's no security. There was no one knows no legal official in these video rooms during the season in the post season there was so you could not do this during the postseason. The Red Sox were not doing this during the postseason but the report also says they compared it to Lions and deers as in You know the the best teams were the lions and they were all doing it. The Best S. teams. Were all doing it. And then you had the teams that's like not to call it the orioles. Whatever I know we have a lot of Oriole fan listeners but no one is going I mean the orioles are not looking to steal signs during a one hundred and eight loss season like they're just not doing that but the teams that were like we got a shot at winning the world series this year? They were all doing doing it but the red sox get up get fingered for this because they won the world series you and because the author of Said Article May or may not have ah garage against the Red Sox. That's all I gotta say about that well and you can also look at it like this. The teams that have been accused dove the teams that have been brought to light that that are at the forefront of these investigations are teams that are successful. They're also teams. That are spending spending money. They're also teams that have been at the forefront of some of the more progressive approaches in baseball all a large analytical olitical staff so they are paying people to do things that other organizations just are not paying them to do so we go back talk to the conversations that Garrett Cole has had with the Astros when he first showed up. He's meeting with a brain trust. He's meeting with a group of individuals who get paid to do nothing but breakdown down what these specific individuals do. How well they do it? Tendencies Yada Yada Ya. Not Every club has that I can tell you firsthand the Oakland A.'s or not working with the depth of staff that the Boston Red Sox are that the Los Angeles dodgers are that the astro. That's just not the case that the Yankees thank you. So that's just not the case so you also have to consider that but to the point of like we don't need to really get into what's right. What's wrong We talk about crossing lossing certain lines and yes the ability to go up and check video and the ability to go through about I think about this. We all know what a savant is right. The guy I or the girl who can look down and look at a sheet of music and nail it or just hear a sound rattle you off this beautiful tone or Russell Crowe just like see some numbers numbers and come out with the fucking meeting life on the other. Is it their fault that they can look at one. Pitch or maybe two pitches see signs line sequencing during their assessment of their at Bat. Whether or not that fast ball actually did catch black on the inside and in the process of figuring out whether or not that was a ball or a strike he actually was able to figure out that they're using chase the two or that they're using outs plus one and so now. He's not supposed to go downstairs. If not supposed supposed to share that. That happens all day. Long to your point we're talking about the utilization of extra technology that was not okayed that was not sanctioned in in an effort to create a very distinct advantage that a lot of people feel like lead to a large part of their success. And the difference. It's like I said is being at first base second base relaying that the way it was relate like you have to think about how those signs were relayed in nineteen. Oh two and how they are related in two thousand to two thousand twenty two ultimately. You'd like to think that that would stay the same. Because regardless of the technology -nology involved in the game in terms of watching it assessing it and studying it win. We're actually playing it. We'd like to relieved computers out of it as much as possible so that the players are responsible for their successes and failures not a group of forty folks who were locked in a bucket basement and forced to watch Jacob degrom delivery for eight straight hours. You know what I mean. That's not what we're after right but it happened. The Red Sox were obviously in the crosshairs of this particular story. They are not the only team that has been on. This ought. I'm GonNa put you on the hot seat. Okay I'm GonNa put you on the hot seat here and I don't like to talk about it. I think any more than you would but we have to do it There's obviously recently somebody here that plays a very potentially very key role in both of these investigations here and I just want to get your quick thoughts on what the future could look like for one. Alex Cora who if he is found to be the heavily involved in the Astros Scheming and heavily involved in any scheme that might be uncovered with the Red Sox. What does that look like for for our boy AC? Because I tell you it's like I don't have fun thinking about it. Yeah I mean I think we if this was an isolated incident with just the astros. Then you know you're looking at maybe a fine because you can't suspend the manager of the red SOx walks for infractions with another team that's not fair the Red Sox But now I mean it could. Let's say hypothetically weekly You know the hypothetically if the if the red sox are going to be punished for this Alex Alex Cora is probably going to be the fall guy regardless of I mean you're not gonNA suspend politely. There's no way of knowing this you've already said in the players that have been spoken into on. I believe conditions of nitty of anonymity have already said that or have been told that they will not be prosecuted. They will not be pursued. They will oh not be suspended. And that's because it took more of a it's basically because I'm just throwing names out here to to use them as an example okay. I'll say this. It's not like the Astros Center fielder and the Astros shortstop catcher and relievers were setting their cameras up themselves installing alling them running cables setting Wifi Connections and Bluetooth connect like the fucking players. Were not doing that. Shit okay. That was all getting installed and set up and whatever and then probably brought to the players attention in some form or fashion and as a player. You're going about your business. Sure you understand what's right or wrong but at some point in time like you. You know if it's June and you're like hey come check this out oh shit all right. We'll be in the tunnel cool and you go on about Your Business. Yeah I mean it's I could see a situation from where you know. Maybe he's gotTa take a seat for a little bit But I feel like the team like the organization is going to get fined Maybe core will get fined because there's a bridge to the Astros thing but the organization. The Red Sox will get fine because They basically said we're not gonNA do this anymore. After the Apple Watch incident in two thousand seventeen under a completely different manager in. That's important to this whole thing. You know the people I wanNA put Cora in the crosshairs is that Cora was the manager in two thousand eighteen. He was with the astros in two thousand seventeen so John. Farrell was at the helm of the Red Sox during Apple. Watch gate so. This is an organizational penalty versus a managerial penalty. Yes and you're right. Which UH which was my point which is why this creeps up into the front office echelon in nowhere near the players and at the very base level in terms of uniformed personnel? The manager would be about as far low as you would go and otherwise. It's going to be these suits and ties. That are going to start getting binded. You know you gotta him them right because the red sox were like John Farrell was not suspended John. Farrell was not find during the apple. Watch incident two thousand seventeen. The Red Sox had to pay a fine so I think with this particular situation. Now that the red sox have you know basically said hey you know what hand up you know we do. The thing won't happen again and then they did it the next season just kind of not not as egregious you know like they're not using using equipment Outside of the one the the equipment that's being provided to them by the League they just were used in a way that they were told not to use it But I think what this all comes down to is that I think you know. Fans and media alike are kind of tired about talking about fucking fucking signed stealing at this point. There has to be a way to sorta bypass signs. You know like I know that it's part of the game but what if no one's GonNa play by the rules. There has to be away. There has to be like an earpiece. The pitcher is wearing that the catchers wearing that the manager the only way. Yeah that's the only the only way that the only way that you can start to entertain a in an occurrence where there's no communication that you feel could be intercepted is if somebody not even within sight. Okay is making that call but then Jerry Lemme ask you. You honestly think think that somebody's not going to try to intercept enlisted frequency. Like come on guy. Do you guys not like I've been telling you motherfucker the fucker since day. One every time somebody gets a slap on the wrist. All you're doing is pushing the goal post just a little bit further back and creating more more of an effort to find a bigger loophole. There's going to be more of an effort. It's GonNa get tougher but it's not GonNa be stopped folks. It's not going to be stopped. That's that's why our boys and girls that are abroad. Deepen the shit. Defending our way of life have to make certain bulk calls from certain areas under certain cover on certain frequencies so the quote unquote bad guys aren't listening in and can't fuck us. You mean to tell me that somebody making a half a billion dollars in baseball doesn't doesn't find that technology or that option appealing because a lot of people are sitting here thinking Yo. You're telling me that I'll be able to tell maybe Three Mile Stars in my lineup. When Ninety Eight is coming I would love for them? To know is coming. Please show me your Shiny Telam Ninety eight becoming communist machine. Please show me that machine that it seriously. That's what it would be like. It'd be like a fucking gun show people from all over the world. Were becoming check out. All this awesome new technology that they could use. That would fly under everybody. Everybody Else's defense systems. Everybody else's radar. How do we find our stealth bomber? So so there's no solution in your mind you just think that it's GonNa continue to be. The signs are going to be delivered the same way that they always have been teams are going to continue to try and figure out a way to decode them and pass them awfully. It's simple understanding communication. You have two people who need to know what's going on. You have two of them. One of them is not afforded the option to just not know because he could fuck in die right gone. He catches ninety eight in the Adam's apple because he thought a change was did not change. He thought a breaking ball was coming at S. Not GonNa look good. That's going to you're going to get a lot of people hurt. So how do you prevent that like. I said you would have to have somebody in a room that nobody else could physically pick up on. But then you run the risk of having a frequency intercepted and hacked in on and now somebody's listening and had relaying everything you're saying to their site as well. How do we get around that build a firewall okay? Well somebody's GonNa across that. Somebody's going to blake breakdown. Your firewall someone. uh-huh okay well. When does this stop it does it? Doesn't it doesn't Stop Jay. Do you have any thoughts on us. I'm very engrossed roast in your guys conversation. I do think it's it's going to be increasingly difficult to stop this kind of stuff although I'm just just so fascinated by what the punishment is going to be so by I start to think about it and I'm like I go down. Sony paths right suspensions and and banishments and fines and lake. Think about everything. We're talking about right now about loopholes and folks figuring out how to circumvent or wiggle their way through these newfound loopholes. These new created loopholes. How for those loopholes created their created by punishments being levied? So that's why the interest in the punishment is what it is because in less it somebody being told all to take their bat and ball and go home for life what we're doing is creating a baseline for this level of cheating much like we. Yeah no eighty game. Suspensions fifty game suspensions much like we know. Those baselines are in place for initial infractions. These suspensions we'll merely represent the baseline repercussions for these types of violations. That's all this is so anything short of a lifetime ban which I do not think we're going to see is merely creating a baseline for what the future slap on. The wrist is going to look like it's that simple. It's really that simple. I mean the Astros punishment is reportedly coming down here. Yeah I mean that one's that one I was going to be that's going to be news for a while like that's checkbook out and go ahead and make sure you've got those black blackout dates cleared on your era on your rental because on a nice vacation. Yeah I mean it's honestly It has to be more than a fine. You know you can't just find millionaires. It's it doesn't work like that if you want to set an example to hey stop fucking doing this like this is unacceptable. Well here's what they rob Manfred. Does that he yeah. He has to make an example out of the Houston. Astros for what they did I think rob Manfred is also smart enough to. We'll be able to tell that what the Astros did. And what the Red Sox did are very much different and We know that the report says the Astros. It was also did what the Red Sox were doing. The Yankees did with the Red Sox were doing. It just happens that they stopped when the red sox chose to continue. Can you doing it. I just think that There's no way that the Yankees stopped. There's no way that the astros stopped. They just didn't get caught or they I genuinely question the angle with the report because I definitely a grudge there. like there the more people were sited on the Yankees side of things saying yeah. We did this and it was. It was up and stole twenty. Seventeen twenty seventeen was supposedly the cutoff where teams are like all right. Yeah we didn't know that it was illegal so we're going to stop doing it. But if organizations like the Yankees and the Astros were doing this and we had confirmed confirmed confirmed reports that the Yankees were doing it in two thousand seventeen confirmed reports that they were doing it in two thousand fifteen you think an organization that was doing something like that was just like Oh okay you know no. It's fine. We'll stop there is going to find another way or they were going to continue. Doing it. Just discreetly that there's no like cheating organizations cheat. That's that's what they are. You calling Aaron. Boone Aligarh yes calling Buna Aaron. Boone is not really involved in this. Like I'm saying that the Yankees. There's no way. Hey Aaron Boone has spoken on this so I can't call Aaron Boone Aligarh but I can just but I can say that. There's no chance chance the Yankees were doing this for years and then when the League was like don't do it anymore. They're like okay no problem. We're just not. We're just going to go back to playing baseball all those way that we all fields. There's no way that was happening. I'll just say this much shared. These major league teams were given the opportunity to come forth forth to admit their wrongdoings and into move on out of the clubs. That we're talking about. There was only one club that we know for a fact didn't listen. That's all I can say. I feel like the the Yankees being the class organisation. They are there the source I I just so consider the source no evans relic covered. The Astros he leaves story comes out to the Astros cheated. Who wrote it? Evan Drellich Evan. DRELLICH MOVES ON TO BOSTON. Then he leaves story comes up to the red SOx cheated. Who wrote it? Evan Drellich so. I'm just saying that if there were cheater is not a cheater. He's just he's an axe grinder. Well maybe maybe Evans a guy to watch maybe Evans a guy to watch them right in the guard. Why I mean? If he's he's now a common denominator is common denominator now. I'm not a play athletic now. He's naturally as well so the the athletics cheating. How do you think they got Keith Law? Well the sure start start all together now. I could now Mixon's but what I said don't let it the main point here. Where is that I said? Yes the red sox this is it was wrongdoing. Can I be honest right now. I'm thinking about picks three and four on. I'm really thinking about picks three it for right now. I might say might make my first pick. David David Ortiz Justin Solidarity with my organization. You won't you don't have that in you. You don't have that in you. That's always something a real bleader a red and blue would do. I don't know if you're that I mean it's cute. You had the my space in her. Hey look at me jared red sox. That's all fine right. Oh cameras came to my came into Ellen towels and put them on me. Look into making a mistake. That's fine you can. You can fly that flag if you want. But that's really all you've done is flight you you haven't planted that flag you gotta play. We fucking do the draft. Are we ready for the starting nine all decade draft. Let's walk. How are we doing doing ready? I am with the first pick in these starting nine. All Decade Read Draft Team Rocket Selects Mike Trout of Angeles Angelis Angels of Anaheim formerly of California. The big fucking pickup. That's up big pickup. You you at really really all the creditor analytical south. We spent a lot of nights going over the books running the numbers. Doing the I ball tests. We came to one conclusion. This Mike Trout Guy Pretty good pretty good pretty good Pretty good player all right well. I thought trout was gonNA fall to me so I'm a little rattled right now I'm I'm GonNa do something I don't normally do you stay away stay away. I don't know I don't know if I'm going. I'm not taking taking Matt. Chapman Fernando Rodney's not in my bullpen. But I am walking on over to the mound. Oh why would you do that. Why would you do that? You've got a guy on your radio. Bring me lefty Kershaw leading lead my staff for the all decade team not always a position player man. But we're trying something new this time Clayton Kershaw on the mound headed up my all decade team. Logging Hurts Dallas Israel. In right now I I just didn't like I mean I'm not a huge fan of you taking my left like that was yeah. No I knew you wouldn't be I wouldn't be you guys. Israeli sold me on when you told me he was definitely the picture of the decade last last week too so that'll be good to use those sound clips when talking about how cool my team is With the third pick and frankly you forced my hand here but this is the route. I'm going I will be selecting. Just inver lander. Oh now I can't help can't can't stay off the mound. He knew he would love dead. He's giving the bumps here for the bumps and pick four very very curious to see where you go at this. I mean so am I. Because there's there's options out there and remember folks these is this is about the decade so two thousand ten to two thousand nineteen or at some point they may have stopped prior to then. That's what we're looking into here. You had a great great seats in two thousand nine. It is literally a hundred percent irrelevant for this discussion. Nobody's nobody's really interested in just to be clear from there. I think I'm going to have to go with Robinson. Cano don't you know. Oh okay all right. Canot off the board. I mean just under a legitimate consideration for being number two I mean hey man like I an absolute an absolute baller and absolutely talking about manning the post right. How many seasons that do post up one hundred fifty eight hundred sixty plus pretty pretty fucking legit and as I mean? Let's be real. Just an era smoothness about him. That is envious. I already have both of my picks six selected. They've already been submitted. That's interesting Boy I'm really torn onto guys here. I am going GonNa go so I'm big on taken. I'm big on maybe taking a guy maybe a little bit before his pure skill or your the US because the drop off after this guy is so tremendous in my opinion his position. I'M GONNA go with the guy who's who's great. He's not doing so do I. Little bit overshadowed I think in the last couple of years but had a half decade run as legitimate. MVP candidate also an actual MVP. Hey and no and I'm going to go. I'm going in Centerfield now. The trout's off the board and I'm taking caution Clark Andrew damage damage and you're so right folks please. We're not gonNA Hammer you with all the numbers here during the draft. We can give you some nuggets here. I'm sure we'll we'll circle back and touch on it but just go go. Look at Andrew mccutchen. Go Look at Mike Trout. Go Look at Andrew mccutchen and then go look at everybody else that plays Centerville. J. God's God's honest truth pick. Andrew mccutchen was under strong consideration for my fourth pick because that is a fake because because it is after after him and try I mean I I mean obviously comparable guys but a chasm for I know we're not gonNA do Stats for everyone. But from just to remind people since it was the first half of the decade from twenty twelve twelve to two thousand fifteen Andrew mccutchen finished in the top five of the MVP voting every year and accumulated twenty. Six wins above replacement over those four seasons he wanted a VP in that season time all star Gold Glove Four Time Silver Slugger Andrew mccutchen folks Yup Yup and was still end was still producing eight. Thirty Four O.. P. S. in his final season of the decade before he tore his ACL intimate touch my pin number. Five Jared Europe for two buddy the number six pick in these starting nine all decade drafts at starting pitcher that Google Liang. I'd Fuck Max Sherzer Madden Saddened Max to team rocket. While everybody got themselves in Ace love it nobody more dominant nobody more dominant and at number seven fire one of the greatest personalities in the game a man who doesn't get enough credit for his greatness in this decade Joseph V- auto sure sure. I don't know if that's early early early early. You like you like you said Joseph Bado allows. I'm glad you took Joey bottle because that makes my decision. Isn't that much easier. Just go easy. Don't don't reveal yourself because it's my pick. I don't want you to give anything away here. Boy It is very very difficult between two people. I wonder if I can steal them. Both I'm going to go. I'm going to stick with my theme team. You know what I draft certain way and I can't fight it okay. I'm going value over the next player again and I'm GonNa take the UN questioned questioned back. Stop of his generation. Buster fucking Posey. Sure to man my staff easily. The catcher of the generation generation and. It's not even fucking close to pick pick got the hardware. He's got the world series and he's got the stats. That's that's a great pick. It is a great pick Dallas Euro per nine and ten. Buddy I am up for nine and ten. Your the team just to refresh people's Robinson planner yet and I think I think I'm going to have to you. Think I'm going to have to start to round out that infield and it doesn't matter in which order I think I take these next two guys because I've got the next stupid so I am going to go with a man who when you think about greatness anything think about Mike Trout and you'd think about the MVP races in you. You have to think about what kind of performance it takes to not allow Mike Trout to win that. MVP I think about a guy who's put forth a triple crown type performance decade. And I'm going to go with breath. Miguel Cabrera good. Pick one of the best purist right handed hitters this game. We'll ever know big mick. You putting him at first base or third base. Only I only Fiona home only eligible at first for this deck. Yeah he's technically eligible for first base or you roll whatever but yes so Miguel. uh-huh Cabrera is playing first base on my teacup. Pretty Damn good spot to ten by ten th Pick J. This is gonNA be a naive. Yeah I knew I risk this. It's like a naive because you know what not only is he not in your uniform and right now that's be in an Indians uniform. I Dunno maybe after the I don't know maybe we'll look into it but I'm GONNA go with. What are the most charismatic young men up the middle in our game today getting done from both sides of the dish sweet bucket it big-league lettuce as well Jimmy Lin door maybe pick kopech? Certainly the class of the shortstops Although I think there's some depth there But definitely definitely the number one. Yeah Oh yeah boy. So now it falls else to me a game Yeah like we're on already. I am going to go ahead and treat myself. So he hasn't been. He was not a dominant force in the first part of this decade. But I think my team needs a little current pop a little current spice juice some of those starting nine voters. Maybe I also think this is the weakest overall position of any any single option and I think he's the class there and I think everybody else is an old broken bitch. So I'M GONNA take my leftfielder Christian Jn Yelich baby should should be back to back. NL MVP. You guys. Have Fun putting like Alex Gordon in your outfield for this. Or maybe it'll be Brett Gardner under Brett Gardner left-field fucking blows jared. You have eleven sorry twelve and thirteen okay. JK's already shipped. We all have that doesn't exist. That's not fair. That's not fair. Okay after we all have five players. I'm going to do another update so that'll be Dallas is first pick at number number eleven twelve number twelve at number twelve and the starting All decade draft Third Baseman of the Texas Rangers Injures Bell. Trae go get him credible player. The APP should have been the pace of baseball by the way I actually. I saw this over the weekend. The Texas Rangers retired Adrian Bell Trays number before they retired. Michael Young's number. Yeah yeah well you didn't know that or uh-huh that's like that's crazy like they were. They retired Adrian Bell trays number like June and then they retired Michael Young's in August which means like they were like. Oh fuck there's a backlash retire Michael Young's number because we suggest that Michael Young should be grateful that his numbers retired or is that mean he you put in the time he's definitely he's definitely a fan favorite. Look Michael Young is a hell of a ballplayer. Folks no no but I mean I. Ah I get where jared's coming from like. Oh Shit really like like it feels like bailed trae was still plane and they retired or something and then Michael Young was like kind of affair. I I understand all right so you want Michael Young for your shortstop jared. Is that your thirteen back and at number thirteen eighteen. Who did he pick bill? But I'll try and at number thirteen my rate field there. The twenty eighteen most valuable player in the American league. arcus Lynn Bats pick. He's a good player. He's a really good player. Oh I was actually going to take Mukhi if he got but I have another guy. I'm very prepared to take. I'm going to slide him in is my third baseman. No I'm not going to know air not oh I don't take yeah. I mean I'm taking I'm taking no one you know. I am the class class to the position. As far as I'm concerned Adrian Bell trae and old washed bitch knowing. Aaron does the future Dallas Number Fifteen. All right here we go since you were pretty accurate. In in your assessment of what left field. Looks like I'm GonNa have to. I'm going to have to jump on this one It's probably GonNa you have to be Ryan Braun for me. A hell of the first half of the decade absolute free time Jay. Did you take a left fielder. Jay Yelich got it and I just took Mr Brown. MVP during that time right to top ten MVP finishes Yep so as as a reminder from twenty ten to twenty twelve a three year period bronze average season was thirty three homers one hundred nine rbi twenty six stolen bases a hundred six runs and a nine forty seven pius that does include won. Mvp Twenty eleven group did a great player. Of course your teams now tainted. But that's that's decision humid so quick little update here since Dallas just picked his player which gives us all five A little update on how our teams looking. We'll start with jared since he started the draft. Jared's got Mike Trout. Max Scherzer. Joey Joey votto Adrian Beltway. mookie Betts strong team. Justin I Clayton Kershaw. Andrew mccutchen Buster Posey Christian Yelich. no-one Aaron Auto Dallas Justin verlander Robinson Keno. Miguel Cabrera Frankie Lender Ryan Braun Dallas. Sixteen Sexual Yep probably just going to probably just going to have to roll with Oh man oh man see. I was torn here which route to go to. I want to move. I want to put them there. I'm going to have to go. Do I wanNA going to have to go out here. MOLINA DIDN'T WANNA get stuck with Russell Martin or Ryan McCann might be the hardest pick. I've made yet. Oh Man oh man that took a lot out of me I yeah you know. I'm going to boy. This is tough between two guys. I'M GONNA go Giancarlo Stanton and Redfield. How how is it technically Mike? He could've I think he was at one point in this decades giancarl. He's in my field to my outfields done jared Europe for number seventeen seventeen and eighteen. The number seven sorry eighteen eighteen and nineteen. I'm sorry number. Eighteen pick and he's starting nine all decade draft second baseman from the Houston Astros. Jose Al to Vais Tubes Bolic. Where does this nineteen yes? The number nineteen pick in the starting nine. All Decade Draft Left My D. H.. Paul Goldschmidt Gold. He he hold going up that D. H. Slot. Who'd you have? Who was your first one? He's got Bado at at. Oh well we know that al to gold pits to angrily interesting. Interesting I Do I get sausage. I'm going to defer on that for the time being I'M GONNA get myself self. Yeah you know what I'm GonNa get myself some some postseason postseason experience