20 Episode results for "Mark Rosenberg"

Introducing : Accused Season 3

This is Actually Happening

10:59 min | 11 months ago

Introducing : Accused Season 3

"On a muggy night in Nineteen eighty-four a thirty nine year old father went to his third shift job at Rainier Processing Plant and vanished. His family assumed he would turn up with some strange range tail. But as days without contact turned into weeks and weeks into years David box never resurfaced now thirty five years later the investigative true crime. podcast accused has reexamined this mysterious case. Uncovering evidence that should have been pursued back. When box went missing everyone had a different story. Police dismissed missed box. Death as a suicide but his family believes he was killed to cover up the truth about deadly safety. Lapses at the secretive government facility where he worked cincinnati-based reporters quarters Ambra Hunt and Amanda Min piece together. What happened in this bizarre tale through dozens of witness an expert interviews. You're about to your preview of season three of accused Hosted by amber hunt this election from the season's first episode titled Disappearing Dad as he listened. Subscribe to accused on Apple podcasts. spotify or wherever. You're listening now. If you'd like to binge the entire third season today you can subscribe at wondering Dot Com Slash P L U S.. It's peaceful out. Here it's lush. It's green it's the type of setting that makes a writer get a little flowery with their words. Goose waddles past and settles atop a nest deer gather beyond the trees that line the winding road leading pass manmade ponds topped with healthy films of green. Algae you can see the occasional bubble reached the water's surface evidence of life below. It's a beautiful full day to visit a nature preserve. I'm here in Crosby Township in Hamilton County Ohio twenty three miles north of the inquirer building which which is where I work in downtown Cincinnati. My reporting partner. Amanda Rosman is with me. That's our two more colleagues. It's safe to say this is one of the more pleasant assignments before journalists have had in a while but as happened so often when telling a tale involving someone's death things aren't aren't quite what they seem to tell you about the guy they found in the salt over implants six. They were pipe fitter work third shift and he disappeared. So if you know accused you know. We've reinvestigated to unsolved murders in our previous seasons. This episode marks the beginning of season three but the story here is unlike any. We've reported before. Yes at its center. There is still death and yes. The initial investigation in into that death was far from comprehensive. But this story is about much more than the end of one person's life it's also about deadly government secrets grids that took decades to come to light secrets that some people believe gotta man killed could schools and if not get the truth you better start packing your lives in danger. I -member hunt and Mrs accused the mysterious death of David Box And it's on the side of that nature preserve in rural Ohio where this story begins more than thirty five years ago back. Then there were no GI cer- deer on the land. The man made ponds that exist. Today are actually the footprints of a series of industrial plants. That once stood there. The place was called the for. KNOL feed materials production center. It was the area's biggest employer and because of that mouthful of a name as well as the red and white water tower emblazoned with a checkered board design that loomed overhead a lot of people in the town assumed. Its workers may dog food. Looks like Purina. Company Logo Logo checkerboard pattern. The employees who work there of course new better. This was no pet food company. It wasn't an offshoot of Perina. It was a uranium processing plant run by the government as part of the arms race of the Cold War workers for national lead of Ohio or an Elo staffed the plants and when they were hired they signed documents promising to keep their mouths. Shut about precisely what they did there. I started working at eighty two. Do you had to sign an agreement. You wouldn't talk about anything that you did there under penalty. I think it was ten thousand dollars in five years in imprison. That's John Sadler. Twenty year employees. He eventually was promoted to management but in the eighties. He was a regular employee. Just like David box likes. The two weren't close friends but they knew each other. He says he was just he just kind of kept yourself. You know I'd say pretty much But I mean he got along with. Everybody is just a fellow worker with no problem but I don't think he was really real outgoing like some people are but everybody liked him. E did his job like we all did ask. John Sadler about David's case. And he takes you back to June nineteenth nineteen eighty-four. That's the day he arrived to work morning shift at for an old and learned that something in strange had happened. Sadler worked implants six which was the metals fabrication plant in the middle of this warehouse. Type building there was a a huge furnace filled with a mixture of potassium chloride and sodium chloride. The point of this salt. That was a bit complicated. But what you need to know right now is that it was really hot. Thirteen hundred and fifty degrees Fahrenheit for context. That's this hottest felt sick lava in which is in the hottest lava but it still lava. I worked at six where this happened. And there's a guy that was furnace operator. Raider he'd always come in and our earlier to get things go on and everything and so anyway. I I walk in and clocked in. He says come here. Let me show you this. And he showed me this furnace which was probably say eight or ten feet long and it had had molten salt in it it just looked like law them always look that way so he showed it to me and it had a brown color crust on top of the the the Salt he says. I have never seen this. I've been working doing this for a long time. The worker had lifted the lid off the VAT and noticed a strange drainage crusty film atop the mixture inside the mixture usually glowed red but the weird crust on top. Didn't it was black. Kind kind of sooty. The worker called a supervisor over and pointed out to set look like a piece of bone floating on the top. He asked the supervisor supervisor. Couldn't make sense of what he was seeing and told the worker to stir the film into the sludge and get back to work. And that's what happened around the same time. An employee named David box was expected to meet his Carpool Buddy for a ride home from his midnight. Shift David it didn't show it would be several hours before. Anna workers would connect the dots and realize holy. God that Saudi film in the salt bad of implant six might be the remains of David Box. You might notice off the bat that we've changed the title of the season beyond the victim's name seasons one and two were unambiguously about unsolved murders Elizabeth. Andy's and Retha Welsh without question died at the hands of someone else and not in a justifiable homicide. Kind of way season. Three might be a murderer as well but then again might not. And that's very much the point. The person at the center of this story might have been killed by someone else or despite the family's insistence what's that. He wasn't suicidal. It's possible he might have killed himself. It's also possible however remotely that he isn't dead at all. They had police done a thorough investigation at the time. His family might not have as many questions as they still have. And there are a lot of questions. Sion's left to answer so many that it's tough to know exactly where to begin. This is one of the most complicated and layered stories. I've ever reported elements of this story have trickled out over the decades in my newspaper. The Inquirer as well as national media reports but details came in dribs and grabs. The official count never even included the gruesome death of a father of three but for us that death is not only at the center of the story. Three point to hear more subscribe on Apple podcasts. Modify or wherever. You're listening right. Now you can listen to the entire season subscribe to re plus today at wondering dot com slash p. l.. That's W oriented it dot com slash appeal to bench this season go to www dot wondering dot com slash class. That's W. uh-huh indeed dot com slash L. S. to support the creators of accused directly. Go to more. Peaks does get bonus content and early episodes episodes. That's at Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special projects in the Cincinnati in the USA debate network aerated by produced spy. Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil and edited by Amy Muscle Intern. Mark Rosenberg provided additional research. Music was composed by Andrew Higley and look at documents photos. Videos bar visit accused. PODCAST DOT COM as noted. Somebody comes from a living history projects. Fano community community lands. Transcript to those of us are available at all the alliance got more

David Box David Box John Sadler Amanda Rosman Ohio Cincinnati Apple supervisor David Rainier Processing Plant amber hunt Ambra Hunt spotify Mark Rosenberg Amanda Min USA partner Perina
The 4 flying Personalities, Which one are you. Eagle, Parrot, Owl, Dove

Core Confidence Life

1:02:23 hr | 2 months ago

The 4 flying Personalities, Which one are you. Eagle, Parrot, Owl, Dove

"This episode is brought to you by bell clothing and accessories. Did you know that the skin is the largest organ we have? It absorbs the chemicals from the cloves, lotions and Colognes we wear seventy three percent of men are experiencing skin related problems and bell clothing and accessories wants to change that if you wanna get organically made clothes for a woman in your life or you want advice on the right clothes for you contact bell clothing and accessories at www dot bell is you dot com that's B. E. L. L. I S. U. DOTCOM Cor Confidence. Welcome to the core confidence life personal development podcast I am your host Dennis Broadcasting to you right here right where I am in new. York. City. If you want to follow us on social media I, think you should write. You can get to us on facebook core confidence live on twitter, follow us their core confidence live and follow us on Youtube. We've got great. On our youtube spot that aren't going to be heard here on the regular podcast, we have an interview with Robert Bell co-founder of cooling a gang. We have an interview with a film director about the topic of mental illness and suicide all these great tip interviews that we talk about. So if you go on over to our youtube page, just core competence live on youtube or you can go to. L. PODCAST DOT COM, and still see the latest stuff over on the youtube page. Be sure to subscribe they're. Going to see L. PODCAST DOT com just to get the latest episodes both on our Youtube TV site and our regular podcast and find out more about us. So there's that if you're listening to us on apple or spotify, Hey, give us a shout to reach me directly for any concerns or questions or anything like that. It's Dennis at core confidence life dot Com let's have a chat about your mindset and where you are and where you're going as Dennis at core confidence, life, Dot Com. Okay we've got a very interesting show for you here on TAP. So for those of you who like the personality tests, the personality profile things. So you know there are things like embiid Ti, many people familiar with that a few episodes ago we had somebody on talk about the disc of personality. Assessment D I S C Then of course, there's the other ones the any Graham. Then of course, the stuff I like a lot astrology numerology. All these things are just tools to get to know yourself better. Sometimes, we need a tool, a device, a mechanism to. Give ourselves the third party view of who we are. So on today's program, we're going to speaking to author and teacher Merrick Rosenberg and he is going to be talking to us about the personality profile he works with and it involves four different animals which animal are you are you a? Are you a dove a you owl. And Eagle are you a parrot? So find out which one of those you are and what does that mean and his something even cooler using this profile system. We'll be talking about with Mr Rosenberg. You can actually predict presidential election outcomes. Now, you can do this strategy as well. One day I'll maybe maybe I'll do a show on that maybe on core confidence TV on you to But right now we're going to turn to a miracle. Rosenberg. Get a big kick out of personality profiles like I do and you want to know what kind of animal you really are and maybe figure out who's going to win the next election. You Might WanNa. Listen and how to meet other animals and how to be compatible in jobs in sex in home life and obviously the. Oval Office. Having specific concrete skills to get a job done is great. Having the soft skills that you can take to any job is even better. And speaking communication is at the top of that list move ahead quickly in your company and become a great entrepreneur just by opening your mouth. Core confidence life wants to help you reach that pinnacle. We are a talent development, promotion and coaching service that will have you speaking confidently with power and persuasion whether it's running a meeting or winning clients. We'll take you from a quiet whisper to a competent communicator. Just contact. US Core Confidence Life Dot Com. That's www dot core confidence life dot com. What's going on there? For Ba Who's going to be a fun day So with what's So we're here talking about your your course and the things that you have constructed when it comes to using personality to better your life and everything, and you've got a personality system that you've constructed I i. Love Personality Stuff I love stuff like you know astrology and numerology in in in any Graham people have heard of that and stuff but you've got your system and it's all about the birds. So does does it have a formal name like this is the blank system is merit system does have an overall name? I district as are taking flight with. It we try to make it fun and simple that people can learn about themselves and learn about the people in their lives and try to make it easy. So the take flight system. Okay. That's cool. So in this personality profile is about four birds here. So just you know. Maybe maybe not so quickly, but moderately what of those four birds and you know what are they are General Personality Walk through it. So first off, we've got the Eagle now eagles are take charge picture that top of the food chain assertive direct confident. They call it like it is. You know at the Eagles thinking because they tell you. It's all about results. And next up we've got the parrot now parrots are fun they're social. Static, they're optimistic for the parrot. It's all good. It just always seems to work out. And for the dubs who are harmonious and caring and compassionate that person in your family who just wants everyone to get along we always have one of those people during the holidays. They're the one who says, let it go don't worry about it. It's the holidays that has been in the family and the owls logical analytical detail oriented. They have a system at a plan that they ask you tons of questions they know what they want they know how they want. That's a great run through. You know what? I spoke about this. You know I thought maybe maybe I'm dovish because I'm a little sensitive or whatever. But then when you described the dumb like, no, that's not me. So. We don't have a little bit of each style, but nearly one or two jar our core self that you could display anybody could disband babe. There's probably one or two of those birds that you display those behaviors a lot. Yeah. Absolutely. We all have everything inside of us just just at different proportions and. And that's how goes. So now when these personality types, you're able to profile people in all areas of life like with these personality types, they have a business It's you can. You can look at somebody's relationships. You can even look at their sex life, their friendships, whatever all these things through the through the take flight system, right? It's the beauty of personality. It plays out in everything we do. Whether it's with your spouse or whether it's in the workplace a, you can see it on TV while Sitcom and you see the characters and you can figure out okay. That one's an eagle that person owl I just play because our personality it's it's a part of who we are. We can look at the world around us through that Lens of personality. Definitely, and we may get into this a little later, but you can even make a presidential election picks using this model. That is true. Very consistent for a long time in presidential elections and people really do vote for personality at the reality is presidential elections are are big personality contests. Oh, absolutely I definitely agree with that and there's all this is also. An astrological pattern to these elections as well but we can get into that a little later So. before we get deeper into the personalities of these four birds, what do you do after someone knows their personality type how do you go about helping them move forward and making their life better It the key is that we have to be careful not to impose our personality on others. So once you have a sense of your style, for example, let's say you have someone who's in Eagle. It's very easy to impose eagle behaviors on the people around us. So picture you're an eagle parent and I I saw this play out in my neighborhood I was watching when my kids were little one of my neighbors very strong eagle and you can tell his son is a dove just soft spoken and they're just playing a pickup game of basketball at a at a set up in the court and and. You know he just you could see the kids face. He's just like I. Just WanNa I just WanNa play my flute I just WanNa hang out with a friend of mine and the Eagle father is like in there by the ball and the problem is the message that that he's sending is who are is not Ok that you need to act like this if you want my love and if you want to. Successful, in life so we do this. Everywhere, we go managers into their people, parents to their kids spouses do to each other the he is understanding your style so that you're not imposing it on the people around you. Definite understanding your style you don't, and that that is true because we all and this doesn't mean that someone in particular as a bad person. But I think that we all do that. We all tried to push our agenda push our ways onto other people even if it's just you know your friend giving you advice or kind of being a little insistent upon where we're always trying to push what we want onto other people and in happen subconsciously because a lot of us do it, and so that's something I've noticed that of humans in general and we don't even realize we're doing it in fact, our intention is very positive I if If. If I'm a parrot which am I am the parrot style. And my wife is the Alal- which is actually kind of interesting parrots Al's do tend to. Attract to each other and so do the eagles and the doves they tend to connect together. And so you know my wife might say is he's asking me for direction somewhere and I just say these you'll see it. No worries at all. It's down the street on the right. You can't miss it and she'll look at me like as an hour like y need details, landmarks distance what am I looking for an and here I'm thinking I'm just Trying to help where she should go but I'm imposing my style and the reverse is true also she's giving me directions summer and she's like you're going to go one point two miles and then you'll see a school shopping center and then about another quarter mile down and I'm just you make a left on main and a paradigm like left on main I don't write them any of the detail, but but we don't even realize it. She's imposing her owl on me and giving me tons of detail with title. I'm imposing my parrot on her by just saying, don't worry about it. It's simple. Our intentions cure and positive, but the outcome. is in great because because we're not satisfying the needs of the people around us. Yeah actually it's very subconscious a Lotta Times positive and you know in now speaking style as well as we speak to people the way that we speak and sometimes maybe they don't understand that those word usages or the our style kind of goes over their heads. Some people are more blunt. Some people prefer to have a lighter touch when they communicate and you know. So it's kind of a you gotta be open minded like to kind of adapt to you know I always say like if You're trying to help me then you gotta speak my language not yours. Exactly at its I in fact, I always say you'd have to be the chameleon. The most successful people are the most adaptable people. Look at Darwin didn't say the smartest survive or the strongest survive. What he said is the most adaptable survive and that's exactly it. If you can speak their language, it's like you're triggering their internal hard wire. If I'm I'm giving feedback as parrot to somebody who's in Al and I walk into their office and I say you were amazing great. Energy Passion enthusiasm love what you did keep up the great work as an owl. They're looking at me like well, what did you like? Can you give me specifics can give me details because I'm not even speaking their language in fact, they would probably say I never even gave them feedback. So you're right on target if you speak the other person's language, they hear you. Absolutely and it's difficult to I mean we're not. We're only born house ourselves I mean it it's built to come outside of ourselves and speak someone else's language. But like like you said, chameleon the ability to adapt others to come out of ourselves to look at how somebody else moves and see if we can get our message across the way, they can hear it That's a skill that needs to be built. But the beauty is it is a skill that can be developed in. Once you shine a light on the four personality styles it's it's the realization of how often you are imposing your style on others. Once you realize that then you can be flexible and adaptable, and that's why I always say. That once you understand these were bird styles you can build stronger relationships because you understand the people around you at a much higher level. Definitely. So of course, you know you know the next question. MR, Merrick right. What's the next question I've got? Usually People WanNa know what their own style is. So I'm GonNa Guess You WanNa know what do I think your style is. Close. Close how do you tell what somebody style is? How does someone know when an eagle when they're a dove when they're damn bowl I don't know how how what you are. How do you know? I'll tell you I talked to styles. I thought these birds to my kids when they were little when they were six years, we could go into a restaurant in the server would take our drink order maybe like, oh, he's a parrot or she is an Al. so let's talk about how do you meet somebody fast and figure out their style. So take take the parrot. First of all parents have Chris Energy they've got a big smile. It's almost like if they were introducing themself to you, they might say something like, Hey, how are you great to meet you Mark Rosenberg welcome and you could feel that parrot energy and charisma just losing Ataman their animated big body. Dial it down to somebody who's more the dove and it's more soft-spoken and they might say, hi, how are you? It's so nice to meet you and just softer. The hand shape isn't the killer death grip on it's it's almost like a genuine I'm so happy to meet you. It's it's very personable very connecting the probably ask questions about you take someone who's the Eagle there's confidence if they were to walk up, shake your hand, it's like, hi, nice to meet you mark Rosenberg because for them, there's an intensity there is a level of assertiveness that you feel. Buki at. Ati liked and take the l very formal almost like a high nights to me. It's a professional very measured is got bill is not big an animated, all of a lot of body motion a it's it's very businesslike and but you can look at it very quickly Once you practice this, you get a sense of the styles very, very fast. Yeah absolutely. So When someone I enters one your programs and Wants to really get down to what animal or pair of animals that are up more prominently. Do you have like a test that people take to you know a figure that out yet people can go online and we have a profile they can take. It's part of our training program and they they can literally with Bertram I you can take it's at a take flight learning dot com is where you can purchase those but it is pretty cool because you can very quickly figure out who are you and it gives you a nice crap and gives you a report and tells you tells you all about yourself. Absolutely not I know we discussed me and it's interesting that the you we all have these four birds inside of us just at different measures So sometimes when you describe things that sounds like me, that sounds like me, I don't know So when you know 'cause I didn't take this test yet. And I asked you who I was and you listening listening to my voice and how I comported myself and able to tell from there. I would guess that just from speaking with you, you're probably a combination of two styles which are that Eagle and parrot style. The Eagle inherit are both big picture. They have a lot more energy they're not bogged down in the details they tend to be charismatic, and they tend to be very inspirational because you've got Parrot. And you also have the results oriented Eagle and someone who motivates you to achieve results is someone who's that inspirational style and and just look at what you do as a career. Right look look at this today it's the. You're you're trying to help people to be better be more confident take charge of their lives and and that's what in Eagle Parrot Combo style will do. That resonate with you. I it does it does I I have a little bit of mind for a detail but the things that you're saying that does You know that that does definitely resonate. So I WANNA get deeper into these different styles just. So if people are listening they can think about different areas of their life and maybe by listening to us go deeper with each bird, they can go. Yeah. That sounds like me sounds more like me the more I hear it. So let's go to the animals. Again, get a little bit more detailed with let's say let's say what the Ergo with the Eagle what what was the eagle like what are they? What are they like in a relationship in the bedroom and the boardroom like what's Eagle like on a daily basis? So I'll give you some examples too. So you can. You can see it in real life picture somebody like an Arnold Schwarzenegger that just assertive confidence or or in sports like Serena Williams or at that tiger woods just they're all about winning. It for them it Steve Jobs I wanNA do something big that nobody has done before. into. So everything about them is winning it's about being in charge it's about being in control. They like to be at the top of the food chain just like that Eagle in the wild. Top of the food chain. They like to charge. They're the kind of person like remember when you were in school like you'd have a group project and there was that one person who always seemed end up being the leader in charge of the project. Whether. They were whether they were the team leader or not. That's your eagle they like to be in control. Mom. Yeah. All right. So how about a little bit more in-depth with the pair? What's the parent like data day in these categories and what's an example of? It picture somebody like picture that Robin Williams or Jimmy Fallon or maybe like Miley Cyrus. Totally, just charismatic and energetic and fun. They are talkative I always joke like when you have a kid and they're just sitting in the backseat in the car on a road trip and you just you just want them to be quiet your quits play the quiet game they will never win the quiet game. For the parrot, they are risk takers, they are daring there. Because they have this optimism of what's the worst thing that can happen so they're willing to take chances and try things and do things that they've never done before. In relationships there you go on vacation with them and they don't really planted out. We just kind of show up we just figure it out on the way they're incredibly spontaneous just living life in the moment picture somebody like that Richard Branson, in the business world is a great example of that. Just you know I love the title of one of his books screw it just do it. Who Else would name a book? That GonNa? Power it says the. Thing to do. Yeah So then we've got the. So. So picture the dove the doves are just very compassionate and caring. If you think about somebody like Gandhi or a Martin Luther King who just as just very he seemed very eagle but a lot of get a lot of That dub style or Mr Rogers is just they care about others they tend not to like the spotlight it in in. So they're always tend to be jobs that are in service of others, and what's interesting about them is is that they don't really like conflict, but they will fight for their family do something to one of their family members in you have crossed a lie that is it they tend to be kind of the behind the scenes person. And as I said, they just want everyone to get along just they don't like conflict. In relationships they may be that that person who is always like. What do you want to do for dinner and the doves like I don't care whatever you want just as long as you're happy. I'm happy and they always are deferring the other people around them. So the people around them get their needs. As it sounded finance. Anyone you guys yet. All right. So how about the OWL? So owls just want things to be done properly I mean go back in history and you get like this. You know Stephen Hawking or or Einstein somebody like Bill Gates is a good example of this. They just they have a system, they have a process. There's a way of doing things I actually I saw this interview with with Bill Gates and. He was just talking about how he likes to do the dishes that there is a proper way to do it and other people just don't do it right I'd rather do it myself. So picture relationships. If you're married to to an OWL, they have a lot of systems. There's the weighed you wash dishes the way you put them into the Dishwasher, the way you fold. The towels and put them in the closet. There's a process they have systems for everything they do, and they really want you to follow their systems and if you don't. Rocks their. World. On hombre. So Now. We spoke about earlier about being able to adapt to other people's language and style if you're trying to help them out. So did you have any any tips to help people to say, let's say I'm an eagle and I'm trying to communicate with dove or up on an owl ton communicate with a parrot how does someone or just in general even if someone doesn't know their animal, how do you adapt to somebody else? Is really need to just reflect back what's happening in that moment. So in other words, I don't necessarily need to figure out would bird you are if we're talking and you're giving me a lot of detail that tells me that you probably want a lot of detail right now. So in other words, I need to look at what you're doing if you're a customer and you are being very direct with me than I should be very direct with you. If you're someone who's upset and your friend you're. Just talking about how upsetting something wasn't how sad you're don't try to fix it don't kick into Eagle, mode and say, all right. Here's what you do this the empathetic and reflected back. So the beauty of this is you don't need to have them take on assessment or profile just book at how they're treating you right now in this moment and treat them the same way because we tend to treat others how we want to be treated. So just reflect back what you're getting right there in the moment. Right there in the moment reflect what you are getting. So instead of doing it, your style reflect what you're receiving from the other person. In this look at what's happening as I said, the most successful people are the most adaptable adapt to what's happening right there. In that moment I mean imagine you're a sales person new you walk into that sales meeting and the person in your parrot but they're asking you detailed questions. You can't just say don't worry. This is the best you've got to provide specific detail answers back. So that's exactly right this reflect back what you're perceiving right there So when people take this, take take up your chorus and they figure out their animal and so forth what what happens after that what where do you take them once they know their personality style and so forth? What happens after that? Well the key is to start practicing people reading I always tell people. Here's here's your homework assignment. I want you to go home I want you to turn on the news and I want or a Sitcom or watch a movie and I want you to start practicing people reading because the more you practice the better you get, and it's amazing. You turn on a TV show how quickly look at someone and say, yeah, that person is the dove or that was such an eagle thing to do and and it's not just a matter of learning you have to apply and the key skill set is first you have to know yourself. Then, you have to be able to read other people then you have to flex. So practice people reading the morning practice a better you get. Practice people reading. Right, so you're in the business of helping people. Use their personalities to make their life even better and better and butter. So when people want people learn how to people read and reflect you know how do you help someone? Elevate themselves based on everything they know about themselves. Well, the key is is how much can you be flexible and adapt? So if you can look at somebody and you can and realize, okay, this person is the dove. then. What you realize is, okay. How do I be be empathetic for that person and and in a sense I always say Look at the behavior that that that study that style embodies if. The. Union to be a dove right now. I almost I tell people I put on the dove hat if you were a dove. What would you do for a also I always say picture somebody who let's say you need to be in the moment save yourself. Okay who do I? Know? That's a dog. And we'll. End. So more that you can embody the traits of the four birds. The more you'll be able to connect with every person in your life not just the people who are like you but everybody. Everybody. Right. So what are some of the chips or methods I know we've been talking about people reading and being able to reflect that back, give us some more tips and methods on how you help people elevate themselves to the next developmental level. So I, what I often do is I happened look at all the different places in which you're interacting with people. So let's just take a very simple place such as email we communicate to people in writing. So let's just take each setting that you live in. If it's in corporate America how do you act in meetings? Had you act as a manager? How do? You communicate had you motivate how do you write an email? So as in Australia just one very simple little world that we live in an ex-. We send a lot of information to people. If I'm talking to an eagle, you can bet that their emails are just like single one liners in the subject line direct into the point. So if that's what they send me. An accident. By, if I'm sending an email to dove. I will bet you when you get emails from dubs, their emails are like, hi, how are you I? Hope everything's going. Well, how's it going and so what I do is when I'm talking to a dove I would start off my email asking them how are you doing hope you had a great weekend. If I'm talking to an OWL, you can bet they're gonNA provide detail to you. So I'm GonNa Right back to them with a ton of information explaining everything with attachments. In bullets. If I'm talking to a parrot, the exclamation point is your friend. They probably use tons of exclamation points. Everything is exciting and when I'm writing to them right with energy enthusiasm and passion. So how do you apply it? Think of each setting something as simple as the world of writing an email and infuse personality into every setting in which you live and interact with others and it allows you to connect with people no matter where you are no matter what you're doing. And you We talked a little bit about I guess me and we spoke about High, profile people like Martin Luther King You referred to that. No they have maybe two animals prominent in their personnel even though we have all four but they have to animals at the forefront and so do you often find that how do you tell someone is a Combo between the two? Most people do have two that are really prominent in their life. And so you'll. You'll see behaviors coming from both places. Let's say you're an eagle owl combination. You're probably somebody who wants it now and I want it right? Doing a need for instant gratification but I haven't need for accuracy. Also A, you're a parrot Anna dove I find those folks like customer service reps in teachers because they want people to be excited and energized engaged but they also want people to get along and be happy. Mom. It's You're going to see. Multiple behaviors from coming from different birds styles you'll. Have to you'll probably see a mix of those two behaviors coming out. And it just tells you look if I am talking to an eagle, I'm going to have to be directed to the point but I have to be prepared and have all my backup data because they're going to ask me a lot of questions. That's good stuff. So what are I, don't know if we even do we what are you? Mice, I'm a parrot with a secondary eagles style so. For me life is good. You know the Parent Eagles style has this thing where they always think I. I can control my destiny and I and I believe that's true. I think that we can create our own reality is that if we believe it, we can achieve it and if we if we work hard with comes from my eagle I, have sense of optimism vision we can create something big So for me now licensed life's meant to be lived in. That I love when I'm traveling around the world and speaking at conferences I spoke at an event in Oregon before before we were trapped at home and. I spoke in an event that morning and I said you know I've got I've got the rest of the data myself. This is to go hiking eight thousand foot mountain by myself what the heck what could what could possibly go wrong and of course, you get to the top and you're. Probably should've told somebody. I was doing this that might have been smart but. The in Eagle Combo we don't really necessarily think ahead. That's why we staff our weakness and we have owls around us to make sure we're staying safe. So someone who now this is a very extensive program here with these four animals and so so what is the formula for that? Hadn't you put all these things together with these animals and their personality traits what how is that process? How'd you put together the personality styles have been around for thousands of years and there's there's what's fascinating about it. There's always four or they come in sets of astrological system you have twelve, but there's war course sets and and you travel around the world whether it's ancient China or the ancient Greek civilization native Americans. Edwards psychologists or therapists there always seems to before and you say, well, how's that possible? How can we keep finding for? Him To be the same four while I was using a system in corporate. America called the Disc Model D, I, S C and. The problem was I just felt like people weren't remembering it back a couple months later and people could remember which one's the D. or the people using colors, which was the red one again, which is, which is the blue and I was like we've got to make this more visual and if I say to somebody. Give me a characteristic of an eagle. You already know it and it's intuitive. So if it's the Burger intuitive today, they'll be intuitive a two years from now you don't have to memorize it and anything that's just intuitive and doesn't need to be memorized. It's accessible right there for your brain to apply. And wants the birds that I was writing a book. by I called taking flight wants the birds I think of as flew into my awareness I stopped using the letters and really built take flight learning a whole business around. Training companies on how to use the birds certifying trainers all over the world, the world to deliver that at training and just sharing the birds so that people can. Build better relationships and happier lives. You know I I, think the visual aspect or applying equality's two particular things and heals people know it better like you know you're saying the Eagle is is in charge and so forth. But to remember that, just remember what an eagle does. You know it's flying high. It's kind of regal or you just just look what Eagle does and you'll get what an eagle is. You know you look at a parrot, it's a bird it repeats after you it's kind of play games with you. You know it's I WANNA cracker Kinda you know Quirky and fun and repeats after you and also look what a parent does. Look what a dove everyone kyw from a dove you know soft and pretty and light, and so just look at what the animals do literally, and then you'll start to get a key on what those personality types alike. There's nothing like walking company say a three, hundred person company and sitting on every desk we have the desktop birds and sitting on every desk. Are there their strongest other their primary style and it's powerful I walk into someone's office and I see an owl who's looking back at me I it's like, okay I know I need to give you a lot of detail. But if I walk into an eagles office I, always say look here's my tip for the Eagle be brief be brilliant begun. Get to the point tell them what they to know and get out of there and I. But it's that visual cue that reminds me who I'm talking to. I walk into the Dubs Office I. Know that I need to check in with them for. If. Power Office for the parrot more excited. You are more excited. They are dial it up have some energy and enthusiasm you make their day. So it's powerful to have that visual reminder is a triggers the application right on the spot in the moment for people to to connect with others. Has So far the more we talk about the parrot, the more I see what you're talking, Abou you'll because sometimes it's hard. You know I pride myself on this personal development stuff, but sometimes it's hard to see yourself when you are yourself. So you're seeing outside of you can be difficult. So you may not know how you're coming across. You may need somebody else to tell you what they see and the more you describe paradigm like 'cause I'm always I think of myself as a hot mess that's my own perception. But when you're describing these traits I'm like, well, yeah, that is me yeah, I do. Owls never use that expression for themselves. They're. Organized Person, who's WHO's got a system and a process that everything has a place and everything in its place. A Al would never say a hot mess. They've got a plan whereas the parents just living life I. I had this funny moment in night by last book, it's called the chameleon life-changing was. When Were on new. figure that would apply to everybody. It's a set of. Fables. Send in the Forest Eagles Parrots dubs als in. Iraq I was writing the book and my wife said to me she's use the Parrot. Way You live your life your so spontaneous just go with the flow I need to bring some of that into my life, and so she looked into goes I decided what I'm GonNa do. I go to make every. Tuesday spontaneity day. Look. You do see the irony in Ryan like okay. Yeah I'M GONNA. Be every Tuesday. So yeah, exactly. Really. And I looked at it. I said, and by the way that may end up being one of the fables in the book and it is actually a fabled called spontaneity day and and it shows how the parrot the will be always trying to bring more spontaneity into their life. But the parrot is actually trying to bring a little more organization into theirs and how neither one is good or bad. I asked if I go on vacation with my wife, we add those spontaneous moments where we just find things never planned, but she also organizes things to make sure we see the big things that I might have missed because I didn't do any research. So we balance each other out, which is really really a beautiful thing. I'm thinking like okay. So how do you attract a particular animal I know maybe this is the same answer as reflect but like I'm thinking, okay. How do you attract an owl or parrot or What should you ex? How do you hire one? How do you attract one like I'm curious about that too even though in. A different. Way. Yeah. It plays out whether it's at work or whether it's in our personal lives and our relationships I saw study recently said, eighty six percent of people are married to their personality. opposite. So Eagles doves tend to get married most often and parrots and owls happened to be married most I didn't say happily married to say happened. But. But they do because it's like. They fill in the missing gaps for us a when I when I got married never forget my wife said to me she said okay. So where's your checkbook? You know we're about to combine our all of our money together and I handed her the checkbook and she said, no, no, no not not the checks you know the the register where were we mark it all down and I looked at tap my head and I was like I. got it. All right. Here into like noted I seriously unlike seriously and now is it al absolutely mortified and she looks at the end she's like you do realize thanks make mistakes write banks do make mistakes look with total seriousness and said look I get it in the course of my life the bank may make some mistakes but you know what they'll make mistakes against me make mistakes for me in the end it'll all even out I, won't have any stress my whole life. So It is true that we do balance each other and so for me if you're aware of of those gaps are in in what you do. You, you are looking for someone it even an interview process. I would be look if I were looking for someone who's in assisted somebody to help me in back me up I want that owl who's going to be structured in detailed in organized I make sure I interviewed for that whereas maybe if my wife was on a team and she's looking for. Somebody. To add a different component or energy, she may be looking for power who thinks out of the box and isn't stuck insists in processes, but it's very creative and free flowing ideas. So the more where you are more, you can staff your weakness and look for skills. You may not natural have own flex and adapt but when work out of our style it's So much easier if hire somebody to be around you that that has the skills that you don't. This is this is so cool because I'm thinking of a couple of owls now that I know and I even though you know I have my have my little details like to pay attention to. Those people I'm thinking of their way more detailed and thorough than I am when it comes to doing a lot of things identity appreciate when they go on their little Digital hunts for all the details and supply me with all the things. I really don't care look myself I really don't care to think about myself and he just ended to me. So yeah isn't that great and the thing is that? Could you do it? To do it, but if you lived in a world of spreadsheets for six hours and calculating data, could you do it sure but by the end you would be. I actually had an owl say to me earlier this year she said to me, and this is such a the sentence unlike other. Any human has ever spoken the sentence she said to me excel spreadsheets are like my meditation. As a part of like what what? For her it's she loves the complexity and solving things and and being able to use data to make data driven decisions. That rate, what is energizing her would be exhausting to me. So why not let her do that because it feeds her as opposed to. ME. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So all right. We talked a lot about this stuff and I this is great stuff and I wanNA know how did you get into this? You know because we always in people who listen a lot get tired of me saying these things but you could have been anything you want to be. You know you could have been a priest you could have been a condom manufacturer. You could have been a Hobo Why did you choose this path to become a coach as speaker someone who dealt with personality types? What is that about? I my very first job. I actually was an intern I went to George Washington? University in D. C. and I I was an intern at one of the big government agencies and I happen to get a job where I was working as a management consultant. Within that within that department and I gotta say every was restructuring workflow reorganizing their systems, which was not me as a parent but but I thought this was interesting is this was pretty cool and then they offered me a full time job and I'm like, wow, this would be great. So I stayed there for a year and and what I noticed, you can change all the systems and processes you want. But these people don't like their manager they've lack trust their environment is toxic they. Don't get along you can change any procedure you WANNA change they're never going to be superstar team and I went back and I got an NBA organizational behavior because it showed me that I really wanted to teach people how to be better leaders I wanted to teach people how to work together more effectively I saw firsthand when I, there were some great teams but they're also were a lot of teams that were very dysfunctional and when I went into those groups, it fed me I. was like I want to help these people and so I started a company called team builders plus is one of my companies now that we one of the team building companies in the entire United States were literally about a half a dozen of them back in Nineteen ninety-one and in ninety four I came across the personality styles and I was like, Oh, I this, and so I taught personality styles for about fifteen years using letters, but it was frustrating because I would see people meet. them six months later and they'd be like which one is this again, which style is that then like you're killing me, I've been an hour three hours with you and you don't remember it, and then once the birds flew into my awareness changed everything. Now go back to people. I haven't seen in three or four years and they're like Oh. Yeah I'm a parrot. Yeah. My Wife's in Al Anon Eagle Yup see every day and so it's been it's been actually a really enjoyable path perhaps. Maybe even more. So even though I live in corporate America I think I hear people all the time who say things like this changed my relationship with my wife or completely changed my relationship with my son and that is really rewarding. It's not just about who we are work. It's who we are and how are back into people in our lives. Mum Okay. So now we talked about all the fun stuff. You know all the things that these animals are good and and you know it was. So, what are some of the challenges that each animal type would confront was the shortcomings of an eagle or a parrot or you know what? Some of the challenges that they need to maybe work around or overcome or their daunted by? It for every style it it's an issue of overuse. It's like pushing the needle too far when overuse strength your strength becomes your weakness. So you take someone who's in Eagle and their assertive overuse. It becomes aggressive their direct. That's healthy their candidate overuse it. They can be blunt bluntness insensitive and offend people it could be a great leader but overused they become domineering. So, it's the. which is our challenge. Heritz optimistic. How can you have too much optimism it isn't optimism stay healthy thing. Well, dial up optimism in your unrealistic at work dial up You know your energy and it's just too bubbly it. Gets too much energy coming accu drives, people crazy. Take the dove mini. How can don't? We need more love in this world how can you have too much compassion? Well, sometimes, it can become smothering a picture, the grandmother who's like, eat eat take it here. I'm going to put more on your plate. You can afford it here. You here take it home with you. It's love but it's dialed up too much and where the Eagle become restive the dub becomes passive were eagle becomes arrogant overuse the dubbed the comes insecure. And for an owl, same thing are the challenges of the OWL are dialing up their need for accuracy. They become the perfectionist and they can't make a decision because they have to have everything perfect or passive of every bit of information before they can make a decision and so they can just be very critical of themselves almost having that loud internal critic but also critical of others to so so it's the. Shortcomings of the styles are when you take the style and you dial it up too high, it becomes your weakness but the beauty there is that you just need to dial it back down. You don't need to become someone different if you're the eagle in your being to just dial it back down to being direct if you're the parent or too optimistic highlight back down to optimism, but a sense of realism to. Him. Do you work with particular demographic or it's just that you know people can sign up for the the courses or do you do target particular? subsections married the beauty of personality out every do and I've worked with more than half the fortune. One hundred companies I've spoken in forty seven states what spoken to small and mid sized companies. I've women's leadership conferences a big events in at just in Ireland recently Barcelona in. France I mean it's personality is cross doesn't hurt his cultures gender and age in any kind of demographic big companies, small companies it doesn't really matter. You're you're gonNA see yourself in the conversation hopefully you're tuning in today you're seeing yourself in the conversation you're thinking which bird m I and you're probably thinking about whether it's your kids or a spouse and That's the beauty of this topic it really of lies everybody. right. So where can people find out more about this with what you have a website Mr Parrot Do you have any way? People can see this stuff? It give us some details. So, you can go to. Take flight learning dot com you can learn about about the training and if you want to follow me I, give like a daily dose of a smile wisdom on twitter. So it's at Merrick are. So it's at M. E. R. R. I c.? K.? R.. And I've got a new book coming out got a couple of chameleon who really teach foundation of the styles. But I've got a new one about presidential elections called personality wins who will take the White House and how we know. So if people want to learn about the styles in a nonpartisan way looking back at how personality has played out in the elections, a the president of the United States since nineteen, thirty, two to nineteen. Twenty twenty that's a great place to see personality playing out. So you can learn about personality through the Lens of the presidential election. Oh good. That's a good you bringing that up again, we can get to that. You know while we have a little bit of time left we list. Let's Kinda give a sneak peek presidential election stuff who wins the presidency what animals win the presidency. The most animals are losers, the most Well, it depends on what time period you're talking from nineteen, thirty two. Eagles in Paris that dig energy of the Eagle and the parrot beat the in the. Every single time the only time dubs analysis have one in the past twenty. Two elections is when they're going against another dub or Al. so take somebody like. Jimmy. Carter who's the dove goes against Ford who was also a dove so dove is winning that election. Yeah. But then you take that dubbed Jimmy Carter Against Parrot Ronald Reagan Reagan wins same thing happened to George H. W Bush goes against their both owls Dukakis and. Bush, and so an owl was going to win that one. But then put Bush against Bill Clinton Parrot Bill. Clinton wins in that happened over and over and over again. But what's what's amazing is fryer one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two from the twenty, eight election back owls dubs one almost every election and they beat eagles in parents all the time and why is that? Media from nineteen thirty, two on, we could hear Roosevelt's booming voice on a fireside chat. You can see if you or you can see about JFK on TV against that Owl Nixon versus the parent of JFK and You know tweets. The problem is that owls have a hard time capturing their policy positions in a tweet where an eagle or a parrot does their inspirational. The rotational there were were their bottom line direct I end. In, dubs have a hard time in today's world winning presidential election. It does not mean they wouldn't be amazing president of the greatest presidents in US history have been Al's dubs from from Lincoln who presidential scholars widely believe is the single greatest president of the United States is Abraham Lincoln was dove a George Washington Owl Jefferson Owl Adams out lot of als in dubs, but they were all before nineteen thirty two. Of. Just fascinated. About. person. Plays. In presidential elections that I said earlier, it's a giant personality contest and personality wins. All right. So what is your? Prediction I guess for twenty twenty. Who's WHO's the WHO we got we as as we stand now, the two major candidates trump and. what's up with trump what is trump and what is Joe Biden I have my guesses but hey, I want you. I. Well, what do you say trump definitely the dove, right Yeah sure prowl. and. He has that odile turned up a lot. is the reality. He's the eagles style, Joe. Biden, it's parrot. So from from the model just shared from what I shared with you up to this point eagle versus parrot, it's a tossup but here's something interesting. Every time we've had an eagle. Owl who are more logical they're they're on the task oriented side of the continuum. They don't necessarily up as much empathy as the dubs into parrots do every time we've had an eagle or OWL president. They've been followed by a parrot or dove because it's almost like how we had that directness of Donald Trump. Now, we need somebody who has more empathy and more that charisma that a parrot might bring. So so we've had an eagle as president. The data would say that the next president is going to be a parent or of the big question is, will that next president will that power to beat twenty, twenty or twenty, twenty, four so I do believe that the country is longing for the empathy that that Joe Biden does expressed some just by looking at the data. Would just that were most likely to have a parrot or dove this time around and Joe Biden happens to be a parrot got so. You can for what you will but that's what the data would suggest It was funny about it is that the data I used for presidential elections in astrology terms says that trump is winning because Joe Biden's a Scorpio Scorpio's do not win elections anymore. They used to, but they don't any now interesting. Well, we shall. We haven't had a Scorpio president in about one hundred years. Interesting, so described. So from a traits perspective, how would you describe a Scorpio? I would say on the on the on the wide stage and you can see this in the last presidential election as well on the wider stage Scorpio's Scorpio's general a very academic they're learning they're very deep and passionate, but they're also very learned. They take their an intellect very, very seriously. They have a well of knowledge. They usually do very well in school, but they're kind of a wonky there. Could be a little boring that kind of want to get that. Mike. Dukakis thing. He got the Hillary Clinton thing very smart Berry accomplished but not really capturing the essence of what people want and both of them went down to loss to Geminis Dukakis loss to Gemin- I Hillary Clinton lost two Gemini and now we have another Gemini, Scorpio Race and Yeah Scorpios just don't win anymore. So, what you're saying is pretty much what I'm saying personality you described an owl owls don't tend to win presidential elections anymore just the media doesn't cover them that way. You can look at somebody like an Elizabeth, Warren, very wonky, very owl like and you rattled off a great list of from Dukakis, the Hillary Clinton to Al Gore. Bob Dole is just a large collection of owls who did not win and it'd be interesting to see how many of those. Fascinating, well, actually some of them aren't, but though, but but Doug Dukakis and Clinton and Biden are Scorpio's and they. Will we haven't had an election yet but I just if if Biden wins that'd be the first Scorpio win in about one hundred years. From. So. Lose to win Scorpio's predates, radio. Interesting it right. It would have been like Hillary Clinton is an owl beat Donald Trump has an eagle that would have been the first time that happened since nineteen, twenty eight. The last time we got US A. Last time we got a Scorpio elected was nineteen twenty. It was Warren harding. There you go and what you are, what you're saying and how you're describing them in that model of they don't win anymore. It reflects itself in personality as well. We're just using a different. Lens. But saying the exact same thing fascinating. That's right. Absolutely. Well, this is great conversation there. You know what would you say? What's the one thing that people can take away? From this interview what would you tell people to do to get to know themselves better or get to do build a skill of adapt APP that's ability better. What's one tip? It's no your style and don't imposed on the people around you. GotTa know yourself you gotTa know others don't impose it on the on the people in your life respect to they aren't treat them the way they need to be treated. Odd. Thank you very much your website again. Hate Flake learning dot com take flight learning DOT COM boy a my wings tired my arms just exhausted. Being on the programs. Thank you so i. If, you'd like to be a guest on the core confidence life podcast. Just fill out our application by going to court confidence life dot com slash guest that's core confidence life dot com slash guest we appreciate you and all your feedback. So to give us comments about the podcast or anything else just send a message to dentist at Core Confidence Life Dot Com. That's dentist at core confidence, life dot Com. Follow. US On facebook twitter youtube and all the social media outlets, of course at core. Confidence Lucky. I'm your host Dennis from New York. City. Giving you higher consciousness lowest dress hard hitting manhood issues, which is the SOP.

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Miracle Mile - 30th Anniversary Q&A - Steve De Jarnatt

The Q&A with Jeff Goldsmith

1:11:01 hr | 1 year ago

Miracle Mile - 30th Anniversary Q&A - Steve De Jarnatt

"The phone rings and somebody tells you the world's going to end in seventy minutes via nuclear war. Is it a prank. If it isn't what do you do howdy. I'm jeff goldsmith within this is the q._n._a. My agenda is simple each week. I plan to bring you in depth insights into the creative process of storytelling folks. Today's movie has such a great setup and it just continues getting eating wilder and wilder with each minute so i'm so glad we got to bring this into the screening series. Look i love doing retro q._a. Screenings and really wanna keep doing more of them and i am thrilled thrilled to bring you a thirtieth anniversary podcast for one of my longtime favorite films miracle mile with writer director steve jarnet so in our digitally streaming gaming age as of right now steve says he really doesn't like the current version that could be rented through prime video which i haven't seen but as he explains in the podcast it's kind of from an old transfer so if you wanna see this movie if you haven't seen it before i highly recommend you see it but if you want to see it no matter what i highly recommend buying the blu ray which you can do through through amazon very easily. It's a great transfer and it has great bonus features. You'll be pretty happy with it. I know i am look. This movie is so insane in all the right ways and steve wrote such a fantastic script which he shaped as you'll hear over the course of a decade into the film we now know and it's certainly one of those films that you'll want to rewatch. We also interviewed viewed steve for backstory issue thirty seven. He even let us run an early version of the miracle mile screenplay in its entirety with some great storyboards without a doubt steve you gave great interview in the podcast that covers his long development process and then the refinements over the years is he kept trying to make the film and of course the anecdotes from the set set so i know you'll dig this episode and speaking of things to dig. I hope you check out the once upon a time in hollywood issue of backstory magazine that's right issued thirty eight has not only one but two quentin tarantino interviews really good in-depth pieces if i don't say so myself because i did actually write them and they're really in depth. One one is spoiler free. The other is spoiler centric. We also interviewed once upon a time in hollywood cinematographer robert richardson editor fred raskin and music supervisor mary ramos and look there's a ton of other stuff. You'd explore an issue thirty eight so i hope you'll check out the table of contents over backstory dot net to see what's inside remember we it can be read on a desktop or laptop backstory dot net or via our ipad app or even via google play on android tablets so thanks for checking us out and you know you could grab a single issue or at backstory dot net you could use coupon code avengers to save five dollars off a one year subscription so thanks for considering supporting my passion project and as you know i run a free screening series here in los angeles which is where most of the q._n._a. Podcast come from so if you'd like to attend the screening you can sign up at backstory dot net to get free email invites and bring a guest to acuity screening so i hope you'll take advantage of that free series and get on the list but now without any he further ado let's jump right onto the stage the film school right after i introduced writer director steve does your net to chat about his cult classic miracle mile the john hughes movie right for a minute. Yes acute. John hughes movie in the one question. I always get it any of these. You won't get tonight. <hes> is who's dr biomethane because the film was dedicated to dr byer. Oh you you will get it and i'm not gonna answer it. Credits are still going right so you're not going to answer it. I can't if if the if the sound was on wood here one last <hes> oh one last air rate alarm the very end of the credits on the blu ray as was in the theatrical release as you're getting up to leave the theater an air raid siren comes yeah well so we we're going to start moderated and then we'll get some questions from the crowd in a while but we're going to go way back because we're we're sitting here. The lovely los angeles film school. You you went to film school. You went to a._f._i. I went to a <hes> in nineteen seventy five <hes> my classes john mc tiernan marshall herskowitz do cornfeld ron underwood heck of a class julie dash. I don't know a <hes> lucas's producer rick mccallum but we didn't know anything then dropped out and maybe thirty five millimeter black and white short short was that tarzana tarzana jim cox scher who helped him on his movie eat the sun depart a bit for that too and that got me into the business yeah well so as you told dominant corey an issue thirty seven backstory our journalist <hes> because we did a big piece on this because it's the thirtieth anniversary this year <hes> that zanna got you into a meeting at warner brothers with filmmaker tony bill who pitched it to mark rosenberg the head of warner brothers. Tell ellis about that. Mark rosenberg was in the s._d._s. and he was in the. There's an article new west magazine. That probably should be you should bring that up against the the baby. Moguls says when tom mount and sean daniels and don simpson various people you know sort of young people were running studios for the first time and mark mark rosenberg liked the film alan rosenberg his brother former sag president plays the young street sweeper you know in this. Mike and i pitched the idea. What would you do if that phone rang right now and you can't prove it but it's very plausible bowl that the missiles will be shot off from our side in a few minutes and the end of the world might happen seventy minutes chicken little essentially and and they made a deal for me to write it turned it in i think in december of seventy nine so the tail end of the last decade and it took me ten years to you know bring it back alive. When did you first get that idea of somebody. From a bunker in north dakota calling accidentally accidents a payphone in a stranger picking it up and hearing that there might be nuclear war or it's a prank they don't know yeah. You know i mean it's i used to have. I have terrible nightmares as anybody who grew up in my generation with role and cover would and i'd have very vivid you know frightening dream so this was in a sense of my exer- schism of getting rid of those dreams had giving him to other people then i do remember phil max which which is wonderful how many people know fix wonder if it was sort of sundance before sundance but it was in l. a. and a lot they broke a lot of important filmmakers and there was a marathon at the el rey theatre on wilshire and so just sitting there and watching great american movies for twenty four hours and the empty l. a. streets driving home tonight you'll see him. It's pretty dead town. You know after at night and i just want to do something in that mail you you and i think there are other versions you know. Were you know it didn't happen this way. It was still going to be some sort of a threat rat and then it just kept getting home down to this very simple thing where you are harry wash l. o. and his choices and you know you don't cut to the other into the phone. Call you know find out what happened to people in antarctica so it's interesting because as as you told dom your your original channel of the script had harry is a much older character did the first draft was was sort of the reconciliation story that's on you know now on the grandparents and it was a trombone player will more alcoholic older. You know gene hackman paul newman today it might be you know what's his name walter white actor bryan cranston. You know something like that who hasn't been in town of fifteen years and he ends up being there for the phone call all and then he barges in on his ex after fifteen years and if it gets rebooted there's people talking about doing some version of whether it's a feature or turning it into a multi part thing from midnight to dawn. I'd like them to go back to that version rather than the two people meeting and and fall in love because i did that and there's some strong emotional thanks to that there's you know you have back story to catch up with and and so you've let bygones be bygones and figure out the unsaid things for fifteen years ago if they do a new version and we'll talk about this more later the spoiler section election. I just want more orlando. I want to know where she is what she's doing but we'll we'll get to that. So here's what's interesting is that you know you were working on at warner brothers and you you got caught in a bid of development hell as as you told don like <hes> the they were trying to assign you to other movies and you said that there was a db cooper super movie angel movie that you know that they weren't <hes> i just off the short film tarzana i went from being you know a busboy boy and park. There was no hipsters on york boulevard to being hollywood director overnight literally. It's all of a sudden people. I had a few fans mark ark. Mike medavoy and i got offered thirty features to direct. I was attached to a db cooper movie. Which one was it. It was the one that got made with treat williams all and <hes> there's a long story that way and then hells angels movie that i pretty much discovered discovered mickey rourke for <hes> he had barely done anything and he was going to do this sort of on the waterfront brando park in the hells angels in that fell apart so but i was turning down a lot of stuff too i was very you know cocky snoddy little autour who only wanted to do my own movies but as as my friend jim here <hes> we we he was very <hes> <hes> integral two days of heaven heaven working with terry malick also projectionist in filing terms of their so we ride sponsored by terry malick badlands days of heaven where you you know you gave of your soul to your art and that's that's how we rolled. I mean you did find footing in television while while this was in development hell you worked on alfred. Alfred hitchcock presents eventually in the eighties. You worked on x. Files in the ninety s anthony edwards. You even directed on e._r. He brought you on which later became a working you know hack and enjoyed it too but in the eighties was dedicated to willingness in the you know onto a screen and and before we get there though you're you're listed as one of the co writers on on one of my eighties favorites strange brew and i'm and i'm just curious what you could tell us about strange brew because i love that movie arrange. The unsung hero of that is joel silver. He was working for larry gordon still anyway. I've been diagnosed me. You know i'm on the phone. I can't talk. Everybody does joel silver anyway. He said there's gotta be a bob and doug movie. Belushi just died. They were going back on s._c._t._v. The and we're kinda bummed out so he sent a couple of scripts up there. I went up there and we knocked some things around and then it was literally. We need a script to be able to send to a studio in two weeks. So i wrote a draft of hamlet rosencrantz in guild and sterner hawsers a eh. You know hamlet in a brewery. That's amazing and you know. There's a lot of that a lot of the story structure in there they of course they're gonna you know improvise at all. They hired me directed so i was the director <hes> but is a canadian movie probably always going to direct it anyway. I was paid at fifty thousand dollars to not directed with really a good job really hate something. I'll take. Let's not do it but i gave every every penny of that to warner brothers to buy miracle mile back interested. They let me have a free year of option i- option it for a year or two and then somebody else could buy it so i literally was like two weeks before somebody else was going to buy it. I gave every penny i had from strange brew to warner's. That's fascinating was that fifty thousand because that's what they had paid in it in development because that's usually the way that w._g._n. Eighteen thousand or something and then tony bill who's is the producer had a deal that was about thirty five thousand that on first day of principal photography. If it ever got made plus plus interest this is important would warner the production company would have to reimburse his part of the developmental will with interest of decade ahead of a decade that was one hundred and ten thousand dollars which actually i got warners to waive it. They were gonna wave it but they had to act john daly who produced as you know for him. Dale had to actually talk the warner brothers and make a deal in agreed of it and he never did and we start shooting so they took out a week of shooting sitting in a hundred and ten thousand dollars out of our budget just because wow that didn't was it followed through that's pretty hard core man <hes> and we'll get to the shoot but i mean i there were some earlier iterations at one point warner brothers wanted to turn it into a segment for twilight zone the movie well not a second so after i bought it back act from them i think i did you know this version of you. Know two people meet cute and on the day their their last day <hes> and and then then mark rosenberg same guy offered me a fortune to sell it back to not direct and i didn't know immediately that it was for the you had in mind for the twilight zone later found that out i think that would be disappointing to an audience for twilight zone fans and for the movie but they the offered like jim burke fatter u._t._a. Was my agent and he goes. I can get you four hundred thousand dollars. Maybe five hundred this is like nineteen. Eighty two were three. You're going to get what what robert town and william goldman yet and i turned it down. What made you turn down. I mean because i've always thought of this as a great twilight zone of what i liked about the twilight zone movie was actually the segment i liked the most was the one that wasn't a twilight nadia tour or who had to make my it's terry's fall. I think that's what you choose to be a filmmaker you put your blood into the project jack and you have to so they said later worked in television a became <hes>. You know a journey been in a hack but you know i had to do this way. I'm glad you did i. Ah tell us about some of the nation's will what we're going on what was going on during the development process because i know at one point. Dom reported that there was a nick cage jennifer jennifer tilly version. There's going to be like i was getting ready to make it with for two million dollars with nick cage just just before i jumped on the only other feature i've ever directed cherry two thousand which was before this and that's sort of that's an interesting story and next turning everything down. I think i dodged a bullet for both our sakes both for next week he was going to play the character he played in peggy. Sue got married. Whatever that voice is in air and mannerisms. That was his version of harry wash. Ella and you know i remember we you you know doing the banking. John daly was over doing the banking i to go make it for two million. I did want jennifer kelly. She had barely done anything. I just thought that would be great and i had a weird phone. Call mike medavoy of iran. Call up and said you gotta do this film. I'm sending the script you gotta do it. The cherry two thousand and i said i can't fix turning down everything you know. You know john's doing the banking okay. Then i got a phone call literally within an hour from nick cage and coppola. 's attorney barry hersch big powerful guy listen knicks gonna do peggy sue got married and a couple of other other movies will slot. You're a little picture in in about a year and a half. They let me talk to nikki. That's not what he said exxon catalina without a phone. That's the way it is this kid so i tried to get a whole neck. Couldn't you know i'm on catalina without a phone machine. All you need. It was a helicopter pilots just threat anyway so i. He said he called up and said send me the script. I read twenty pages. This is this is weird and i jumped on the movie with you know it. It was already a moving train. You know very little prep getting ready to do and then it came back and went knows a bluff. It was just a bluff but i was i had committed to another movie. It was a bluff for who they were trying to get more money. No there's just a bluff to see if i'd wait and i you know i yeah it was one of the weirdest days player that's banking this movie for two million. I don't know i mean it ended up. Being you know four point four million to make it the only three million physically make it but fred. You've there's a number footed around three point. Seven below the line and four point four all in yes and you know three point seven in blue line still is like after you take out insurance and contingency. You have three million dollars so there was also the possibility dom reported ended of kurt russell version that that's when it was a goal move kurt russell trying to escape from l._a. I just wanna say it out now mayb- they'd be better than the escape from l._a. Not be better than escape from new york but lasting <hes> the i had two lunches at the ivy at the shore three hour lunches and at the end of each kurt what's going to do the movie and then we i think we offered him a half million like that was going to be him in rosanna arquette or something like that <hes> when i was going to be like an eight million dollar movie for for ryan and they just had one small change <hes> think it was <hes> not wall <hes> who is the arthur krim one of the guys above medavoy was assault to negotiator and you know they were inning this the cold war which really you know the the salts deferring when they know it was it was a nuclear treaty yeah so <hes> anyway he said listen <hes> we love the script. You just have one small change. The russians have to start the war and i went <hes>. That's is a five minute movie ten minutes fifteen minutes because the whole time lock. Is you know chips calling and you know maybe they're shooting and off our missiles. We have to start it and then the russians pick it up and then they come back you just you'll figure it out. Just go do that and you got eight million dollars. If you go make so what they want like the russians call the payphone by accident and harry knows how to speak russian and once again just like the turning the big money i i said well that doesn't make any sense. I can't make it here so then we left in nine hooked up with john daly of hemdale who was on a roll you know with terminator donator and hoosiers and river's edge and one best picture oscar back to back for platoon in less emperor he was he was on a hell of a role. We'll <hes> we'll let. Let's talk about jerry two thousand because it was your feature debut. What would you say was your most important lesson on cherry two thousand based on a script that you did not write prep. I mean it's really about knowing the film that even if you can't attain everything that you have in your plans you have have to really be prepared and also cast you know the best you can so. I jumped on a moving train. It was a good learning experience and i'm glad that it has following doing now. I mean it's it's a fun called classic. It's <hes> i mean the supporting cast in the music. The basil polidori score brin julie weiss's costumes are all all amazing and it's just it's an odd movie so what made miracle mile get. It's green light. What what was what was what got it. It's green light was that you started cherry two thousand and the chair i was hot until i actually did something so right hours and i was hot. I actually didn't indirect anything for like seven years from seventy eight. When tarzana was done the one thousand nine hundred five where i did the heart of the alfred hitchcock pilot right which turned out good <hes> you know like first day on a professional set directing john houston kim novak tippi hedren melanie griffith and pretty great power and i really enjoyed alfred hitchcock presents both versions and i love to i was glad when they brought it back in did emerson sa- ah i turned down a universal thing which was the universal well. It was made for universal. This is what a snotty astle so that finishes finishes it turns into a t._v. Show and universal offers me like three hundred grand a year to write direct and produce television. You know i don't have to do anything i get an office. I an assistant and no feature guy so later of course i did a lot of television so that's who i it was then and anyway. He's in recovery now. <hes> we'll miracle mile. What got the green light <hes>. What was the finally got the green light in a platoon tune with such a success that you know hemdale could could make things happen so daily. Just all along was like let's do this but they were hanging in there and then you can see him being a snob. After by the way <hes> top gun you know was a big hit in goose was the most you know the memorable character so he was bankable. Tony was bankable. You know two for a low budget movie. At what point did he become involved. You know around that time yeah yeah i mean after chair between cherry and and when we okay we shot it in eighty seven was done in eighty two and it was a toronto in eighty eight and then it came out in eighty nine nine in may of eighty nine yes and so we know the budget. How many days do you shoot for seven weeks of principle of which i had had to stay on schedule. If i got two days behind they were gonna fire me and that was the pressure of the whole shoot all night shooting. You know we did a couple of the big things in there for you know today make feature and it's two people on a couch in it's six million and three million all night shooting lighting up city city blocks and helicopters and a little traffic jam on wilshire. It's we were prepared. We highly prepared and how much prep did you have how many more years but how much director prep well the posters i don't have all of them are going to get a website eight up soon and you find that later this year and there's like nine color whether on their on your site the script the nine color paintings by paul chad we published what would steve calls the long draft of miracle mile which is different from the movie. It has kind of different things happening in the ending about it more in the spoiler section. You were very kind. Let us publish it but it has color storyboards inside which we're in the script and that was a selling ailing tool. It was an paul does concrete now dark horse comics ferrel farrell yeah. She was a model for some of those right nice for julie and so there was full storyboards i story boarded at twice the you know those will be on the website and then these color paintings innings and all kinds of stuff <hes> and i never referred to the storyboards wants so it's making i mean really know it was just these beautiful painted boards the boards were to to evoke a sell it the look of it and then storyboards to they were they were some of the early version was very like you know birdman where it was almost simulating one shot like a rope shot with wipes and that was going to be too restrictive. I mean you still never leave harry. You might he might drop out of the scene and you deal with somebody in the foreground but you never you know cut to a scene where he's not in it so it's you know that's the concept you did in the long versus growth but i'll talk about <hes> so thirty five days all right so that was that was basically a round shooting pick up shots for at least another another year until really i well i. I think what whatever i made on cherry you know a couple hundred thousand or something i spent all that and then i went into debt for one hundred fifty thousand just going out and shooting. You know gasoline on fire on the concrete. Why wouldn't why wouldn't why wouldn't hemdale pay for those shots. I would go shoot did they reimbursed me twenty five grand and i would just spend it again and the intelligent and bahraini anything more and i so you know that's how i roll all right well. We're getting into our spoiler section now so podcast listeners. If you have not seen miracle mile please buy the blu ray which is is easily available and don't watch version on amazon until the blu rays on there because it is right right <hes> amazon. Tell him to to get the <hes> h devers. It's the old crappy washed out wrong format version streaming on amazon. Oh there's yours streaming yeah. That is the crappy. I got it got. I highly recommend the blu ray. We projected tonight. <hes> in case you guys weren't aware it looks beautiful. <hes> you know germany and france soon the u._k. Versions to <hes> all right so so press pause go watch the movie comeback <hes> the spoiler section what i was going to talk about a second ago that was so great one one of the things that's great about harry's character. He's an every man and i could easily see him have been ex military or something silly like as a dumb studio no note to to make him into a man of action and the movie resonates because he specifically is a trombone player who's just trying to find his way and is not sure what to do. Okay he's just a guy. He doesn't make the wrong choices. He doesn't save the day he doesn't get hold of the generals and stop at he. Doesn't you know so you're expecting that just because is hollywood movies then and particularly today you know you're not gonna have this this ending <hes> and so he does frustrating reading things in it can really frustrate audiences and now you know most people seem to you know embrace it and it's idiosyncrasy <hes> whatever that word is eddie asynchronous <hes> but when it came out you know at least a quarter of the people would hate it. It's like how could you do that to me. He was stupid why didn't he why didn't he go off woodland in so there was a lot of animosity but it was it was small. There's still like you know two thirds or three quarters who who went with it but i i i went with it for sure. <hes> let's let's talk about the ending for a second. Even though i know we're at the beginning and we'll get deeper into the ending later but during your years of development were there was there anyone want to try to change that ending well when warners offered me that fortune to sell it back to not direct. They just infer the twilight zone. Their concept was everything everything happens. It happens to the movie and then he wakes up and it was all a dream is intel when the power went out and then and then it starts happening again. It's like you know so. I could actually make the movie and then there's this epilogue and i could have you know half a million dollars and that's interesting real estate only because i'm a huge twilight zone geek. There's a <hes> is a twilight zone episode about a guy that's trapped in a dream that keeps recurring called shadow play which is one of my all time favorite was a carousel also. He's going to be executed. He's he's. He said to be executed but no one could tell him what he did why he did it or even. Remember the crime and you know he's trying to convince them that. This is a dream and they have to stop it. It's it's a great episode. Sorry i'm getting. I'm getting a little off topic but <hes> that's that's. That's interesting that that was the only concept that they tried to change your way from. It's it's a ballsy ending to show nuclear war starting and and it's it's great that there's no save the day because somebody says the first first time they see it think that something's going to be wrong. You know this happens in a lot of modern movies to where you know. You know you know all the big c._g._i. Things things in the rock is like you know. Threading the needle is a buildings falling and then you get away but like millions of people died. Is that really a happy ending no you your characters did so. I didn't really give you hope that there was even going to antarctica. Although is a short story i'm going. I have after right version. I'm going to read a version of what happened to land everybody yes and as well and then we're happy to publish it in backstory on the on the indy. Oh i gotta ah get a problem. I will have my story short story collection coming out next april and that's what i've been doing last few years. I got a master's in creative writer and been writing being serious fiction and i will do that. Version will be included at some point. <hes> i actually people who contributed on the indie gogo thing for for my website you know some people get to have their names in the story as people who the plane so that's that's awesome donation. You wanna be on the plane. I mean jumping ahead again since we started with the ending when i go back a little your beautiful trick in the the story is the moment in the movie when wilson shows back up and crashes through the department store and he's trying to explain to julie would happen because because she really wants to download and there's a moment of doubt in which is this a bad game of telephone and the moment of doubt is beautiful because you could almost almost see the movie in a way ending that way in which is just this panicked l. a. based off of a phone call and then you rip the carpet out from under us and it is is a beautiful actress tightrope that within the script and the film and in the editing room you gotta walk. This is real i believe or i believe it enough. I'm going to jump on a food truck. Did i invent the food truck grace now okay anyway they run off in food drug and then but i'm going to jump off off and get meet the girl i'm not going to survive. I'm gonna go get the girl every you know you're inspiring people to believe it and then then am i chicken little did i am i crazy. You know in in the told wilson the wrong thing. He's changing the story which it helps you know cloud the issue and then yes that swat teams there in at least we're in the world and a lot of trouble but the world's not ending wait the swat team where they going. I love the shot when when he comes out with what's magnificent about it because i've seen your film many times is that you don't cut away you stay on anthony anthony edwards as he is walking out and were you know we knew that l._a. Cops are a little trigger happy is he gonna get shot. What's going to happen and then we turn around around to see the other side. You see the swat member falling off his rope trying to chase after his car. That's that's left him because they've gotten the orders going to get his love when whoever whoever that is right or just trying to get out of dodge so it's it's a it's a great moment in the movie that i've that. I've always loved the character of landa. She's she's got a mobile phone in in eighty nine. She's she's watching it. Is the art yes. She's watching. She's watching the stocks on t._v. She is speed reading gravity's rainbow bipin shown. I wasn't here did that. Get illiterate chocolate did did <hes> and it's it's very organic to the story. What would we give you the idea idea for landa as the organized would go right this. You know i would always write this in the middle of the night playing the sources soundtrack <hes> tangerine gene. Who did the soundtrack here and i think i'd hang out in all night. Things janis was never an all-night blows. It was greek. They had you know it was never open all night. I think it's the place across the ambassador at hang out there and i saw a woman like that come in the broker and doing stuff like he wasn't speed reading cliff notes to gravity's rainbow. It was the. I think that ah i love pinch. <hes> we'll so all right. I i like landis so i'm glad to something. Good is going to happen with her character. What was the challenge as a director filming in real time because you know after the first twelve to fourteen minutes once the phone call starts. You have a seventy minute window by the film's definition that is not exactly seventy minutes real. Life doesn't exactly go the way that people predicted. I'm saying even in the course of the movie. They're like oh well. The bombs aren't here and it's been fifteen minutes. Well you oh you know of course it's not going to be exactly as predicted. Also you didn't know it's like we're we're locked in. We're seeming to do it but you know how. It is with launches right delay on there so you don't you you just sort of it's a relative time span and you know i've never actually put a clock next you know like in the corner to see how accurate the real time is it simulated but it has a feeling and what was the challenge director because i mean obviously you nailed it on the page but you know your there's a there's a connecticut connecticut energy to to each shot. Somebody is generally moving. There's only a few times a slows down and i know that actually i think you re shot the grandmother's apartment scene yeah now take what what was the original scene because like this is like again he breaks in and she put the granny pulls a gun. Which is the same thing yeah i mean. I must say even though he's not a superhero is wielding a gun you knowing he shoots a record player no but the grainy pulls a gun analyst cosio and everybody's got again any bunker be great prison novelist. Yes eddie bunker mr. What color was he in reservoir dogs. Mr blue mister blue you know he knew how to use that sawed off shotgun and <hes> so you know a lot of guns as all hollywood movies solve many problems with guns. I'm guilty elliot's heavily armed <hes> but but so what was the original scene when he broke in what we see similar it just it just laid there. You know you it didn't work <hes> the opening just there's about three versions talking on the platform of the carpets and there's alternate versions of that that were written and shot and then i sort of had to do the montage saying we're falling in love and you know luckily they. We have an f. chemistry. Can i do a spoiler of course tony in mare now a couple in real life in real life years later. They are diamonds. They're my diamonds. They you know she had five kids. He had three they had marriages they went south and they a got together for the blu ray extras and they live in new york and there are a couple so that's that's the real happy ending you know there. I was going to bring this up later but since you're on it now let's explain what you mean when you say diamonds because most people wouldn't know what that is as as we reported in backstory and also on the blu array you could see that at one point somebody had the idea of not it was a dream but that there was a you know we are meant free each other in the cosmos which is a call back to the opening of the movie and you could explain what happened with the diamond with a diamond well. There is an alternate. It's on the blu ray. It's the happy ending it's two seconds long and it's that white light at the end actually coalesce into two twinkling diamonds that float away and i- commissioned a friend of mine lisa bellow hello the go go's original drummer but <hes> who worked in effects and she made that and i was on the fence i wasn't sure and we ran. We we ran for a small group and they were on the fence and john daly bless him of hemdale. The haunt head of our said that's too upbeat. You know let's it's rip their hearts out. Let's see so you made me cut that out. You don't get a lot of studio heads go. Let's go for the darker ending. You know that's john daly yeah and so i but i love that all these years later they are each other's diamonds and and and you could see that you could see them <hes> on the blu ray extras but so was that when they got back together like that was the first time <music>. I'm the interview. They didn't new york. I wasn't there he was okay by <hes> most most of the extras all the janis there's great <hes> reunion a union of the supporting cast at janis that charged my credit card and we got in there for six hours and my dp tayo came in there we filmed it and you know ten twelve twelve almost everybody who's still with us and it was a love fest but tony and mayor film that back east and then the first time i got to face time thing on my phone phone in there in a cab after filming that and they're making out and i go ooh okay we're. We haven't told a lot of people but we're a couple title where love were never gonna leave each other and it was i started it was like i couldn't believe as if they're pranking me. That's that's amazing. Folks awesome cutting in really quick to remind you about the once upon a time in hollywood issue of backstory magazine over at backstory dot net it features over sixteen thousand words about once upon the time in hollywood which includes two long interviews with writer director quentin tarantino one that spoiler free and one that spoiler filled we also chatted with cinematographer robert richardson persson editor fred raskin a music supervisor mary ramose so if you love once upon a time in hollywood as much as i do. I know you'll dig these articles. Remember you could read backstory on a desktop or laptop at backstory dot net or via our ipad app or even google play for android tablets while you could always buy a single issue. I hope you'll consider sitter subscribing and remember you could use discount coupon code avengers to save five dollars off a one year subscription so i hope you take advantage of that deal as well. Subscribing is always worth your time as you get instant access to every single issue we've ever published so you'll have plenty to read but i hope you'll start with issue thirty eight because there's there's so much great stuff packed into it beyond our tarantino interviews. You'll also find indepth interviews for t._v.'s the boys chernobyl and russian doll plus. We did a thirtieth eightieth anniversary piece on the iconic eighties movie heathers and we even exclusively run the entire first draft of the screenplay which is just a brief one hundred in ninety six pages we also interview comic book writers novelists and of course filmmakers behind this summer's top films and t._v. shows so i hope you'll check out the table of contents intensive backstory dot net so you could see everything that's inside issued thirty eight look. It really means a lot to me to have my podcast. Listener's support my passion projects. Thanks thanks for checking it out but now let's jump right back into my conversation with writer director steve. Does you're not about his passion project miracle mile one of the things that i've i've always loved about this as a movie and this is a script is that there's so much happening in the world outside of harry scope and you never explain it by the way to your credit which which is something that i love the. I'm just curious. The two gals that show up that were friends of landa with uzi's who who were they and i land is who knows there. She called you know today of course with technology with all the a lot faster yes. They're friends of hers and you know once ginette goltz goldstein vac is in aliens in their near dark and now is a big bra entrepreneur entrepreneur genetics bras so right and wonderful actress and you know just came to small park. I wanna be a friend end of landa yeah well in verse curse dead you know obviously was associate of right on the roof and coordinating the helicopter and he's just drugged out the entire movie v which which was pretty pretty pretty amusing <hes>. I looked at <hes> her grandparents when they get back together. Which was the call back to your original. Screenplay ended ended up getting a standup <hes>. I love that day. I love that they choose rather than to go in the helicopter that they want their last meal at canter's cantors which would be not the top of my list but it would be on my list if i was trapped in l._a. Like couldn't get outta town because i love canada free food kanter's enters or i think we all calling it a triple bypass pastrami sandwich. I'm not sure they will ban me. I'm not sure but they mentioned a few times. Did you ever write a cantor's. Oh yeah denies was that was open. Although yeah right <hes> all right so we're coming to one of my favorite characters again has a lot going on outside the screen but we don't see what it is. He is listed in the credits on the as powerlifter. He is the helicopter pilot. The helicopter pilot played by brian thompson. He whistles for leslie his partner noor. Let's go <hes> at the gym. When did where did this idea. Of where would you find a helicopter pilot at four in the morning and it coalesce into an all night jim because i've always loved it. There were all night gyms even there of course there and some other places the country's at oh. That's bogus as the over the top looting adding instantly people thought that was over the top and then ninety two l._a. Riots understated after that you know did. I don't know you're going everywhere. You know you're you're asking people. <hes> brian actually is is from the same little logging town in state of washington pushing tin. I grew up in longview washington. His dad was my oceanography teacher. Really he's terminator. He's one of the you know the the thugs at the beginning right that closer taken from yes <hes> but so what is going on in your mind or would that be a part of the land in a story for him when he's not on screen because aside from oh you mean when he went to the airport he went to l._a._x. And he comes back bloodied so since he was shooting the true hero i mean you know harry wash l. allies in deceives and some questionable things you know the the helicopter pilot is the true. I said come back. I came back. I could have got away blessedly probably got away. I don't know he's bloody. You don't know he's still got his white bandanna on on though and that's all that matters could handle the sweat at that time of day <hes> no you. I mean it's a great character. I've i've always been curious. <hes> i thought that wilson's death and the death of his sister again is like another piece of the puzzle that's great because he is writing around in stolen cop car. There are cops that are dead because because he didn't realize that just throwing gas on their faces would he thought it was going to blind them and they would get away but they ended up of course that's symbolic all of that. We're shooting off our missiles and blowing ourselves up yeah in france. They love that really well. So i mean like a couple oh years ago and it's like you know just the depth of of all the insight into the symbolic and all that it's like well i mean i knew that he's now all cop killer. He's being pursued. He ends up at the stores. We talked about he has a sister. He's trying to escape and you had them die. We're there ever any rations where wilson possibly lips oops because it's another good moment another trial for harry in which wilson's now telling him to kill him and harry doesn't harry almost does with his gun but dies if he's when when i wrote that thing that thing of kill me you know take me out. I don't think that was a big cliche. Though it seems like now that i've seen that since then <hes> but i don't know as more people are waking up <hes> people are trying to exit town and anybody that studied the field of of you know what happens when a city is alerted into a natural disaster you're thinking like the streets are going to be clogged jammed and stuff like that and you have this great scene of chaos on wilshire boulevard and it's literally really just getting across from one side of the street the other back to the tower. Tell us about writing it and please tell us about filming that was in the script. They're only got a couple of posters stories of that. All these posters will be available at some point of the street jammed up. I mean that we filmed that image. We blocked off wilshire for for nine night and a half and it's dawn shot too so you know moscow lights covering the whole block and then making a little dawn light i mean if i had a more of a budget the whole light growing in the east you know in the sky which we shot real. There's no c._g._i. And even the street blocked off you know you would do better. I mean it's we got great production value on there but it's you know it's the budget shows a little bit but it works. I mean you have car wrecks. You have a car blowing up. You have cars enabled a move which is exactly how it would happen and so i i mean that was fantastic free one that doesn't know when when the young man is shot. It's actually steve's face of falling on a sewer once once. They're down sewer. I still have the scars from those that was that was a good cameo but i mean again. We're wondering if it's going to be a hoax or not because at that point in the movie it's still could be a really bad game of telephone. I was outside. I didn't you know i sometimes sit in the audience but i know there's a lot of funny stuff in it. Hopefully hopefully people stop laughing towards the end although even there. There's a guy holding variety. You got run over. I was gonna ask about about that's like joe dante type. Oh funny bit in a actually it was it was a good call to what you did a lot in the movie. You're very aware of your foreground elements and so you know like as as harry's crawling crawling under a car not only. Is there a variety clutched in someone's hand. You see a body. That's been run over by a tire. You see other dead bodies and again. You're saving budget because as you're doing it all under cars you know you don't have to show the bedroom at the st that you got in a few shots. Here is a <hes> a note that i that ten years of research search getting ready. I had like photos of car underbellies you know and then i remember filming that i remember. I have a whole folder of car under under bellies but we're not using it. We're filming so you do all this stuff because you're waiting to get ready to make a movie. That doesn't really apply that. There was a deleted scene when i didn't fully understand. I know it's it's. It's a little bit in the script that we publish to. I'm just curious more of what it means well yeah. It's it's going to at one point when they get into into the elevator to go to the helipad. It's actually going down and it's going down to a civil defense shelter. Tell it tell us about that. That was in the script and i think it's sorta played in the script that they get <hes> but there's been so many frustrations i mean they're together. Finally they find the pilot. They're running back there and then he thinks he sees them across the street. So i'm really messing with the audience here just so to finally then get together again in the elevator and then you go down. Instead of up didn't work it was never cut into a rough cut and i knew i was filming it. He was never going to be in the movie and here's a good lesson for young filmmakers and it was joke circle though right joe tur- cal you know from glory from the shining from eder blade runner you know maybe he should squeezed his head. I don't know anyway and and they get in there and then it's overly written you know it's like any they're going down in the east quoting the levels of dante's inferno the souls of purgatory historians or two intellectuals you listed than somebody who's read and then the doors open and there's three women and raping a guy and more chaos this crazy chaos like and then they go up and they do the thing when i was filming at joe showed up and he actually thought he was playing gerston so <hes> and he got the lines that we're doing that scene in it's not working in. I'm indulging an actor because is a nice guy and but you know we're ready getting ready to do their important. You know pivotal scene in the elevator and it's something 'cause you're focused redirecting on this and doing that and then you know people had to point out to me you know tony maher with the greatest but they were getting a little antsy. We're are cutting into our our scene. 'cause you're filming this thing and that i knew when i was filming. It's never going to be in the movie so don't waste your time filming filming. Something and you have to pull the plug. If sorry joe you don't get he wanted to do another take i could you know i love you in your other movies that that this one you're going to uh i i i i said earlier we would get two apart when you actually do cut away from harry and in the script during that chaos when they're in the elevator and and and end julia's is talking about will people help each other. Will we be able to rebuild properly. <hes> you cut away in the script to just utter sadistic chaos and bedlam going across all over l. a. where people yeah like i in the version that we running back striped the report viciously killing each other having sex on the streets like all their into the world madness and i'm curious if you shot any of it it or did into the under the cars and the other scenes yeah <hes> and then the line that you know probably write it on some posters you know i i guess people help each other. They will do this. I think it's the insects turn so that's you know yeah my belief. We're we're heading. That's that's kind of where we were heading then in sadly still where we're heading now. <hes> you know obviously as a writer and a director. It means that if something needs to change during production you could rewrite it was ever time during production that you needed to reduce something like live on the set when people are waiting around or the night before you rehearse. The diner scene works because we rehearsed like a one act play. I mean you know several nights in there and they're stills and video the footage of us rehearsing so that's was locked. We knew exactly what's happening there. You know i think the cop seem at the gas station. I'm not i i sort of cast cops that looked like cops rather perform and the script. There's a more of an emotional thing in there where that the those cops were a couple to you know everybody is couple up in this thing or going back to get somebody which is a little. It's an artifice but it's that's what the the you know the rules of the movie. I'm curious about the overall plan just for a second and how in your mind it sat. The plan was to take a helicopter l._a._x. And some sort of a plan from l._a._x. Or drive there in the go with the food truck and then they'll be this backup. The contingency plan right for other people to get to antarctica somewhere in the extreme southern hemisphere or chili. There's a there's a desert and shelly that there's no rain antarctica <hes> i don't know because no rain because the fallout and she she mentions like a valley that there's no rain and so would in the movie as we see even even when powerlifter aka. The helicopter pilot picks them back up the e._m._p. The electric electromagnetic pulse pulse of a new going off destroys machinery and basically i'm curious if in your mind even if they made it even if they got it on the plane would wooded m._p.'s knock them out or would they be hopefully far enough away a distance. If you're on a plane and it's you know a hundred miles away. You're going to be fine. I think okay there is a thing hanging in the script. It was an wonder the skip is another thing. I was just toying with people too much. The first missile came over and they're holding each other and it lands ends yes on wilshire boulevard and it's a dud and it's like smoking which is actually very realistic that i in research that you know only a third third russian missiles would probably work just like north korea and the eighties. That's what they were expecting. I'm sure it would work now so you know but that was just that was too much. Well well actually in the script only because this cracks me up when i read it and i was gonna ask about it. You actually have one crash at a golf course and and i was curious you know. Was it a hole in one uh well no no but if you had a dud at a golf course and i was curious if you ever shot anything with the duds no we never film there is gerster said the uptake real all on blu ray. There's there's him going. It didn't go off. I'm right out there raping marie with an axe handle it and it didn't go off. Sorry donny and marie just like you know who's the joyce brothers. I was in an elevator once. They're the with the guy that said joyce brothers and maybe because when you're trying to figure out the important people to keep alive a little yes pat riley you'll come back and <hes> that'd be good. We'll so all right when you're filming. I'm curious. What was your toughest scene and we're going to get a couple from the crowd but but what was your toughest seen as a writer when you were writing it and one that took you a long time to crack and how did you crack it and then what was your toughest moment onset. Well writing is always always the beginning. I wrote a hundred and fifty pages before the phone rang. I wrote life stories of two people. I wrote all kinds of different versions of who these two characters characters were the older hairy but then once you get to a diner and you in the rube goldberg aspects of why is this this character at this phone at this moment you know i had to work out that the the writing of that you know there's many drafts at the from location. It was actually in a sort of an all night <hes> grocery store with a counter further down wilshire in the original orig- the storyboards and the original script not not janis all the things that happened throughout that are pretty. We're in every draft and i didn't alter much. She did live in the hollywood hills at one point so they went up there not to park la brea had crazy things too like driving down law sienna sienna and there's a cat under the break and going and then they're towing an apartment building on santa monica boulevard and you have to you know crazy stuff. There's enough i sort of took out the stuff and left enough in so they're still sort of as i call the joe dante humor type of thing where you your knowledge a certain amount of movie stuff but it's supposed to get very serious and real by the end before we get tough moment onset. I forgot to ask about editing. Which is the last stage of storytelling. What was your biggest lesson from the editing room. <hes> still the opening we are reshad and we redid stuff in the opening to get to get the setup because basically you don't have a lot of time. You know you have to say these. Two people love each other and i would go back and and you know that's the rest of my life will be about being with her. So that was the trickiest thing. I think <hes> and you did a test screening to my knowledge right. Oh yeah we we tested it in nsa quarters and you know we. It was actually pretty good. I have the cards from somewhere really put him on the website and it was like seventy percent. You know a really positive but that's the they want ninety. They went this killing but there's testings react to the <hes>. I was in the bathroom. Afterwards in these tough new jersey guys were smashing the wall and they're crying and there. I'm gonna fucking. Kill that director. My girlfriend's really upset you know well did he was so stupid. What is and <hes> so i didn't. I didn't introduce myself but i like that. I i like the fact that that <hes> you know it. It upset him. I mean if people really hate the movie. I think that's good if they if they really messed up about it so it means you've got the emotional connection connection one way or another as director. What were some of your toughest challenges. There wasn't just one. What was your toughest scene for sure. I mean blocking off. Wilshire is is not on any budget is not easy boy shooting with a helicopter gonna have character step on the helicopter after try lights on the movie. I think that's how i found out that they wanted for twilights on the movie. I'm in the book where they actually say if we would have made miracle recall mile vic morrow would be alive. That's my fault but that's crazy. It's not your i would've taken the money yes. What was the toughest acting scene. If it wasn't one of the action scenes i would i well the joe torre. Calvin mentioned just was raising. I'd say the cops. I think in the script the cops there's much more emotion that you felt between the cops to like really caring about each other in a in a milk that moment a little bit more film any of it. We filmed it. I just cast actors that look like cops as opposed to going for the best words. Oh here's one thing that's really a testament to anthony edwards and i mentioned on the thing to the voice of chip in which in later the movie is is raphael barge from risky business does a great job but the person we cast they were on drugs or something. They was just terrible. It was like tony you know this is like the second week of shooting or something and so the script supervisor reviser head to like just do it like casting situation tony head to make that scene work not acting with a real voice in its in if that does seem doesn't work the movie doesn't work so so it was just the script super off off lines. He was like e mumber a y- you now i do have somewhere have the cassette. I hope i can find it so of crispin glover auditioning for the voice of chip that would have been amazing because this is in the cage version because they were best friends and they were trying to outwit each other so i know if i can say this. It's politically we do it over. The phone is agency. You send back the future just hire them and say so because i think chip is retarded in the the do booed so he literally read it like yeah sme- cheer ah turning chip into but that's not to laugh at the other end so easy but he's supposed to be a nuclear silo with important the one saliva bubble but hey got married nick cage you know as a fellow <hes> and we wouldn't be here today. Yes we would we would not tangerine dream the only because you mentioned risky business another great score from them. How hard was it to to to get them for the movie 'cause i i love the score wrote it of course to the sorcerer soundtrack in the middle of night and then you put the rough cut together with you know all tangerine dream a little of the peter gabriel birdie soundtrack which has a lot of nice undertones and stuff and then you know we had no more money so so we sent it to them and they loved it and ham once again john daly hemdale stepped up it wasn't in the budget and i don't know what they got paid but it was worth it and i got to go to vienna dan work with him for a week and you put in the risky business queue you know for the bird cigarette and all that and you know they redo it they they're. They're not offended. They don't go like you know it's just edgar edgar froze and paul hassling her who lives in l. a. and his scoring a lot of stuff just two people and you know they they they redo their own music and you know it was all scored before we went back to l._a. Then you just had to like cut it together we take a question or two from the crowd here the diversity the of casting in nineteen eighty seven. I don't know if i was woke but i wasn't asleep at least back then and i you know i. I don't know i wanted to do that. I mean so the dining danny de la paz who usually plays gang leaders <hes> is the is roger her <hes> which if you know we don't explain what <hes> what the you know. Their issue is they're just they're accepted character after and same thing with the pilot you know it's like oh okay but it's not it's not about their angst or anything. It's just their major character and as they said that pilots the euro the movie hey. Let's refer to him as powerlifter. Please our let's do okay. That's the official i._m._d._b. Role i will say this though the wilson character actor which is a cliche you know somebody boosting car. Stereos in the script is a surfer dude. Not you know caucasian surfer dude and then we i decided to go diverse with great actor so i have to take the rap of using a cliche persona for that but we'll just a nice guy that wants to save his sister ussery. They're gonna question. Was there a particular screenwriting book that help you on writing or structure or was it just education af i or just your love of movies i i. I took sid fields first class at sherwood oaks. I don't know i just i don't know i don't i think you have to read all the books and study all the paradigm and then try to do something that doesn't follow all those rules there's. I don't know if there's three the accident here. It's just like there's a prelude and then there's a seventy minute long thing i mean the diner is it's a weird thing. There's a montage love story set up then then. There's a one act play and there's running around at night you know so. I don't know us all that stuff because everybody at the studios radios and suits will give you all those rules back in their notes so you'd have to be aware of them and you need to subvert them <hes> and then and just i think <hes> you know the best of billy bob had the best thing about writing. I think so he said why why are these characters to this is because i want them to and that's if if you believe in your vision enough and you're willing to turn down mommy and opportunities ladies and you can you. Can you know go bring it back alive then try to do something. That isn't something we've seen a thousand times. Yeah another question guard to mares casting in the in the rule of julian how a change tony and i had to really stop on the ground for john daly to get married. I'm tony new mayor. I mean you know detailee rosanna arquette <hes> i think john daly went kelly preston but so yeah obviously for a more you know ognjen new. Thank you know nobody can play make every every single moment real like mare winningham. She's just is so gifted to do that and they're right for each other life and on screen so i you know i'll fight anybody. Who says you know i've had people who are odd. Go off with land. I wouldn't go back and get truly. I'll i'll fight you to that. You know it's like i don't want to hear that well so second life. I mean you said earlier that you're you're considering a possibility to not so much remake it but but maybe let it be a limited the series on a streaming platform or m._g. On m._g._m. owns it. The hemdale library went bankrupt. I directed two features. One for ryan went for him. I'm dale. Both companies went bankrupt so don't hire me and i found moore contracts than they have. They can't even find the file contract. I do have to be hired as the first writer and the first director you know when they can pay me the old minimum which is still pretty good so i'm hoping there's been talk about about somebody coming in. I sort of eight hundred pound gorilla four hundred pound one to come in. I don't want directed. Why not we made it once you yeah i wouldn't i would like to go back to the old script with the older guy coming back to get his ex <hes> but maybe maybe maybe it's a woman. Maybe it's you know who who knows i i when conceptualize it just passed the baton and i even the present day i want a solar flare or or some something is taken out the cell network and it's been shaky down. You know people are getting used to that. It's down because if you have cellphones. You can't can't make anything like this movie. It's just too much information. <hes> would you ever consider the the kind of limited series where we where we would see land and we would attract different characters all over the world. We go beyond the tar pit ending of this movie. I would like to turn it over to somebody. <hes> you know i mean if five any power in it other than just getting paid to to originate i would turn it over to somebody who has a vision to do all that <hes> if they want to do that fine or it could be you know the limited series and then you have extras on the internet where you can see that stuff you know as i'm going to do with you know fiction thing <hes> <hes> and you know. I don't want him to save the day it should in this way i mean you know i always like to tell audiences who think you know the cold war's over and in its nostalgic. It's much more likely to happen tonight. It is then back then back then. Everybody was on hair trigger alert hurt you know. Planes are always flying now. The missiles are still pointed. Who's running this country. Who's running any in russia too. It's it's like you know somebody with. A bottle of vodka hasn't been paid in six months and their girl broke up with them. You know it's like there. Were thirty eight accidents or more documented dropping h bombs outside of charleston or charlotte almost blew it off the map so intel an accident or you know but overt use of it or or somebody instead of sending a tweet out sends a missile warhead until we see a city eddie blown off the map. Were we're not going to deal with. It's still that thing that once it entered the world and episode eight eight of the new twin peaks you know that's the evil burs brought in his world. That's that's how i always felt and it's going to happen you. Don't you don't build all this stuff to not. Have it be used now. Hopefully it's not going to be the all out thing but things are going to be blown up. Maybe it'll be indian pakistan well. It's always been mind nightmare fuel and i wanna thank you for it's ladies and gentlemen. Give it up again for steve and all sign posters or any other questions. You have thank you so much and that's how the q._a. Went down. Special thanks again to writer director steve arnott for chatting about his cult classic miracle mile on its thirtieth anniversary also make sure to check out the massive once upon a time in hollywood issue of backstory magazine featuring two huge interviews with writer director quentin tarantino plus we also interviewed cinematographer robert richardson editor fred raskin and music supervisor mary ramos there's a ton of other fantastic tv and film interviews interviews in issue thirty eight and i hope you'll check out the table of contents so that you could see everything inside over at backstory dot net and by the way while you're there remember were you could purchase a single issue or you could use coupon. Code avengers take five dollars off a one year subscription to backstory so i hope you take advantage the job that great deal and we definitely would be grateful for your support. Of course you could test drive the magazine by reading the free issued backstory dot net or even purchase a single issue so you've got plenty of options and i thank you for considering him the q._n._a. With jeff goldsmith is a copyright of unlikely films inc in two thousand nineteen all rights rights reserved and hey if you'd like to show your support and donate to this free podcasts so it can continue to buy new equipment and use these funds to pay all of my podcast hosting fees feel free to send it pay pal virtual tip to yoga smith at g mail dot com any amount is greatly appreciated as your social networking these you could follow yo goldsmith on twitter or good check out my facebook fan page. I'm jeff goldsmith the publisher of baxter in the host of the q._n._a. Thanking you for tuning in and telling you to stay out of trouble till next week.

harry wash director hollywood steve jarnet warner brothers writer john daly Mike medavoy Mark rosenberg fred raskin landa new york Tony tony bill Alfred hitchcock anthony anthony edwards google amazon terry malick quentin tarantino
The City recommends: A new season of Accused | S E1

The City

12:36 min | 1 year ago

The City recommends: A new season of Accused | S E1

"Hey everyone robin here. I WanNa tell you about another show. I think you're really GonNa like when David box vanished one muggy night back in Nineteen eighty-four his family thought for sure he turned up with some story maybe about quitting his job and a half the thirty nine year old father of three worked third shift at a uranium processing plant but days turned into weeks And weeks turned into years and David box never came home now. Thirty five years later our colleagues at the investigative investigative true crime. podcast accused have taken up. This mysterious case uncovering avenues. That should have been pursued back when box went missing. See Police dismissed boxes case as a suicide but his family believes he was killed to keep him quiet about deadly safety lapses at at the secret of governmental facility where he worked reporters Amber Hunt Commander Osman piece together this bizarre tale through dozens of interviews and more than a thousand thousand pages of trial transcripts interview notes and investigative documents. You're about to hear a preview of season three of accused. If you'd like to hear more you can subscribe to accused on Apple podcasts. spotify or every you're listening right now and the entire season of accused is also available to binge Ad Free Free Right now on wonder plus you can subscribe to wonder plus at wondering dot com slash P L U S that's wondering dot com slash P L U S okay. Here's the expert. Thanks it's peaceful out here. It's it's lush. It's green it's the type of setting that makes a writer get a little flowery with our words goose waddles past in settles atop a nest. I fear gather beyond the trees that line the winding road leading past manmade ponds topped with healthy films of green algae. You can and see the occasional bubble reach the water surface evidence of life below. It's a beautiful day to visit a nature preserve. I'm here here in Crosby Township Hamilton County Ohio twenty three miles north of the inquirer building. Which is where I work in downtown? Cincinnati my reporting partner. Amanda Rosman is with me. That's our two more colleagues. It's safe to say this is one of the more pleasant assignments before journalists have hadn't awhile but as happened so often when telling a tale involving someone's death things aren't quite what they seem. They ever tell you about the guy they they found in the salt over implant. Six Five Predator work third shift and he disappeared. If you know accused you know we've reinvestigated indicated to unsolved murders in previous seasons. This episode marks the beginning of season three. But the story here is unlike any. We've reported boarded before Yes added center. There is still a death and yes the initial investigation into that. Death was far from comprehensive. But this story is about much more than the end of one person's life it's also about deadly government secrets that took decades to come to light secrets secrets that some people believe gotta man killed could girls and if you get the truth you better start packing. I'm amber hunt and this is accused the mysterious back of David It's on the side of that nature preserve in rural Ohio where the story begins more than thirty five years ago back. Then there were no geese or deer on the land. The man made ponds that exists. Today are actually the footprints of a series of industrial real plans. That once stood there the place was called the Fernald feed materials production center. It was the area's biggest employer and because because of that mouthful of a name as well as the red and white water tower and blazoned with a checkered board design that loomed overhead a lot of people in the town assumed. Its workers made dog food. It looks like Purina Company logo checkerboard pattern. The employees who worked there of course new better. This was no pet food company. It wasn't an offshoot of PURINA. It was a uranium processing plant run by the government and as part of the arms race of the Cold War workers for national lead of Ohio or an aloe stuffed the plants and when they were hired they signed documents promising to keep their mouths shut about precisely what they did their wives. I started working at eighty two. You had to sign an agreement. You wouldn't talk about anything that you did there under penalty. I think it was ten thousand dollars in five years in prison. That's John Sadler. Twenty year employ Oy. He eventually was promoted to management but in the eighties. He was a regular employee. Just like David Box. The two weren't close friends but they knew we check. He says he was just he just kind of kept yourself. You know I'd say pretty much and But I mean he got along with everybody and is just a fellow worker. You know with no problem but I don't think he was really real outgoing. You know like some people are but put everybody liked me. Did his job like we all did ask John Sadler about David's case and he takes you back to June nineteenth with nine thousand nine hundred eighty four. That's the day. He arrived to work a morning shift at for an Auld and learned that something strange had happened. Sadler worked implant six which was the metals fabrication plant in the middle of this warehouse. Type Building. There was a huge furnace filled with a mixture of potassium. Am Chloride and sodium chloride. The point of this salt. That was a bit complicated. But what you need to know right now is that it was really hot. Thirteen hundred and fifty degrees Fahrenheit for context that says hottest fell sick lava which is in the hottest lava. But it's still lava I worked at plant six where this happened. And there's a guy that was a furnace operator. He'd always come in and our earlier her to get things go on and everything and so anyway. I walked in clocked in. He says come here. Let me show you this and he showed me this furnace which was probably. I'll say. Eight or ten feet long and it had molten salt in it it just looked like lava they always look that way so he showed it to me and it had brown cut across on top of the the salt and he says I have. I've never seen this. I've been working doing this for a long time. The worker had lifted the lid off the VAT and noticed a strange crusty film atop the mixture inside mm-hmm. The mixture usually glowed red but the weird crust on top. Didn't it was black kind of city. The worker called a supervisor. These are over and pointed it out to set look like a piece of bone floating on the top. He asked the supervisor. Couldn't make sense of what he was seeing and told told the worker to stir the film into the sludge and get back to work. And that's what happened around the same time. An employee named David box was expected to meet his car. Pool Buddy for a ride home from his midnight shift. David didn't show. It would be several hours before Anna. Low workers would connect the dots and realize holy God that Saudi film and the Salt Plant six might be the remains of David box wchs. You might notice off the bat that we've changed the title of the season beyond the victim's name seasons one and two were unambiguously asli about unsolved murders. Elizabeth Envy's Retha Welsh without question died at the hands of someone else and not in a justifiable homicide. They'd kind of way season. Three might be a murderer as well but then again it might not. And that's very much the point. The person at the center of this story might have been killed by someone else or despite the family's insistence that he wasn't suicidal it's possible bowl. He might have killed himself. It's also possible however remotely that he is in debt at all. Had police done a thorough investigation Asian at the time. His family might not have as many questions as they still have. And there are a lot of questions left to answer so many that it's tough to know. Oh exactly where to begin. This is one of the most complicated and layered stories. I've ever reported elements of this story have trickled out over the decades tate's in my newspaper the Inquirer as well as national media reports but details came in dribs and drabs. The official account never even even included the gruesome death of father of three but for us that death is not only at the center of the story. But it's the whole point To hear more subscribe on Apple podcasts modify or wherever you're listening right now you can listen to the entire season three Andrea subscribe to wonder plus today at wondering dot com slash P. L. Mass. That's W dot com slash peel This season go to. WWW dot wondering dot com slash class. That's W E R Y dot com slash L. U.. You asked to support. The creators accused directly go to Mo- peaks empty does get bonus content dander episodes that's at Patriot dot com slash accused. And this is a special project CINCINNATIAN. USA Today network aerated. Produced by. Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil and edited the date by intern. Mark Rosenberg provided additional research. Music was composed by Andrew Hickory to look at case documents photos videos and bar visit accused. PODCASTS DOT COM as noted somebody'll comes from a living history projects in the financial community lands. Transcript to those interviews are available Eh community alliance got more yeah yeah.

David box John Sadler David Amanda Rosman Ohio David It Apple Amber Hunt Commander Osman supervisor robin Crosby Township Hamilton Count Salt Plant Cincinnati spotify Mark Rosenberg Purina Company amber hunt W E R Mo- peaks
GeoQuant Model Predicts Trump Wins In Bernie Matchup

P&L With Pimm Fox and Lisa Abramowicz

30:17 min | 9 months ago

GeoQuant Model Predicts Trump Wins In Bernie Matchup

"The Bloomberg PNL PODCAST is brought to you by interactive brokers interactive brokers margin loan. Start at three point. Zero six percent decrease for larger loan values rates subject to change learn more at K. R. dot com slash. Compare welcome to the Bloomberg podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney along with my co-host this Abramowicz each day. We bring you the most noteworthy and useful interviews for you and your money whether at the grocery store or the trading floor find a Bloomberg pl podcast on apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to podcasts. As well as at Bloomberg Dot Com just to give you a picture of what's going on in the bond world you see the thirty year yield reaching new all-time lows one point eight nine percent on thirty year treasuries see the dollar having it's worse off versus its peers of twenty twenty gold shooting. Hire a big question of what's driving this. Is it just the fear that the corona virus is spread is bleeding into the services and industries in the United States Previously thought to be a little more immune or is this something larger joining us. Now is Mark Rosenberg founder and chief executive officer of Gio Quad Which is a based in San Francisco and looks at the geopolitical risk generally and the global picture? He's also an adjunct Professor at Columbia University. Mark can you give us a landscape? Here we talk a lot about the corona virus and what the potential bleed through could be an industries. But then economists say well. There's going to be v-shaped recovery but on the political front is there something that's going to be equally potentially difficult for markets to digest on the political sphere? Sure I think I think with with a health. Risk like the corona virus you WanNa look at the implications for social instability in the countries affected and then and then turn the stability of the government. Those generally have more layton effect on on markets. But I think when it comes to a large economy like China If there were indications that this That this virus was Disrupting kind of social stability in the country or if there was news as there has been of late that maybe weakening the government Then I think you can get some concern around the potential of the government to respond to shock like like like a health Like a disease outbreak like Like the corona virus so mark. We obviously are getting into the heat of the election cycle here. We kind of know where president trump stands on a number of issues that are important to markets and investors. Have you talked to clients how you framing up the democratic side of the field for us? It's really about the strength of the Democratic Party and kind of more generically the opposition to the incumbent versus You know the the the the trump administration the current incumbent and according to our models that's probably the primary driver of trump's likely reelection right now is is in fact. The weakness the relative weakness of the Democratic Party as an opposition party as demonstrated by some of those dysfunction in the primary process by the Still unclear field the growing likelihood that a more kind of Divisive extreme candidate like Bernie Sanders will be the the nominee. Those are the factors driving. You know what we call. Kind of institutional risk institutional support risk for the administration. That risk is down as the Democratic Party. looks weaker and weaker. So let's talk a little bit about the Democratic Party. It seems like after this week's debate. I it was the first that Michael Bloomberg who is founder and majority owner of Bloomberg L P and this radio station was a participant Bernie. Sanders appeared to consolidate a lot of his support. People thought that he emerged winner. They also thought though that president trump consolidated his win given the fact that there is a lot of cross a circular firing squad type of activity. How significantly do you think the Democrats were set back? I'm not sure. The debate itself was any kind of critical juncture in setting back. The Democrats I think it was more a symptom of know what we saw in the previous debates and improve and then the primaries and caucus so far which is You know a field that's that's heavily divided And and a group of candidates that All extensively agree on the goal of defeating Donald Trump and uniting to do so But are now just inherently engage in a process the primary process Where they're they're in some ways making that less likely because they are fighting against each other as opposed to the common you know quote unquote enemy. So Mark Bernie. Sanders is leading in the polls right now. Can he be president trump in in in according to our models and again You know the these are kind of generic come in survival mobile no in that Bernie Sanders Will be a candidate. That would have trouble uniting the Democratic Party and as such would weaken the strength Of the opposition vis-a-vis incumbent and so the incumbent will be more likely to win. I'm in so I'm in the scenarios we're running with our models of Sanders candidacy makes a trump reelection. More likely what about Pete Buttigieg? What about Michael Bloomberg Whose performance was pretty significantly by almost coverage following the debate again. Generically a more moderate candidate a candidate More capable of winning winning winning swing voters of winning suburban white voters in key swing states that are in many cases. The the the key to the election Is Likely to be trump right and more and certainly makes trump's reelection less likely so in our models. It's a relatively simple trade off between A candidate that is more likely to win. You know what political scientists call the median voter And which in the case of key states is really a swing voter Or One less likely to win. Those voters and in our model sanders is less likely whereas the more moderate candidates more likely so mark. Is there any indication that if Bernie Sanders gets the nomination that he or Democratic Party could move him more to the center maybe appeal to some of those swing voters? You kind of put any of those odds and your model. We don't model that directly That does make kind of common political sense and is generally the way party candid. It's run in the general election. They generally pivot More to the center In order to capture a larger swath at the electorate sanders has made a career Of Not doing that. And so I'm just anecdotally Suggests that that kind of dynamic is maybe less likely this time around But but to be sure you know in a in a more With a more generic candidates. That's exactly what you would expect to happen and given again that all Democratic candidates are at least vocally saying their priority is beating trump. That would be the right strategy. It's just not clear that that is what actually happen. Mark just quickly here. I'm wondering based on history. How soon does the Democratic field half to shrink or consolidate support behind one or two candidates in order to have a better chance going forward if defeating president trump? So there isn't really a clear historical pattern I think You know the the the the the primary calendar in terms of opposition beating incumbents You know the primary counters relatively set in the United States And so there isn't really a kind of date by which the Democrats need to You know coalesce or form a coalition by which they make Their success in the election. More likely I think the general rule in this case is the sooner the better Mark Rosenberg. Thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate your thoughts Marc Rosenberg founder and CEO of Gio quant also an adjunct Professor at Columbia University. He is based in San Francisco. Some interesting commentary about the election. And kind of what? Their models are showing and appears to be Mark's comments you know pretty predisposed towards president trump getting re elected Unless maybe the field somehow coalesce around a candidate and maybe can put up a stronger fight. Yeah then they'll be. The question of whether any candidate on the democratic side could get something done without the both Sides of Congress. Meanwhile just mentioned that right now. Fed Funds Futures are pricing in a full half. A percentage point rate cut through the end of twenty twenty so really shifting their rate cut expectations forward. This morning everyone was watching thirty year. Treasury yields which were hovering on the precipice of an all time new record and it reached it after the data that came out this morning from market. Us business activity shrank this month for the first time since twenty thirteen with the services section of the index seeing a particularly big drop off. The question here is. What is the message being sent by bonds which are reaching a new all-time lows? In how incoherently the incoherent is it with equities reaching or hovering near all time highs joining us now ben. Managing Director Global Strategy at Medley Global Advisors joining us here in our interactive brokers studio. So let's start there. What is the message? Being sent by thirty year yields at all time lows so no one handley shirts a technical message. Parent's positioning going on with hedge funds going short and Ezra managers going long on US probably very much driven by different views about where the economy beheading as well as hedging against the downside risk of this virus on the other hand. It's it's two fundamental picture. I think the inflation picture is going to see a significant moderation this year if the collapse in China's as we speak happening in terms of production data then inflation data general. We'll go down quite a bit and that will really transcend downs globally. And I think this is not a reason why bond yields are lower in the united. Do you what do you think the Fed is going to respond to what appears to be a growing problem? It doesn't appear like we've seen the peak of the Corner. Virus risk so oldies central banks are monitoring us they say and we know that they don't have to precise tools to combat any of this but they've they do know as we know now is that companies are responding quite dramatically to this outbreak. No shutting off production. Shut Down Air. Traffic showed it will be something of a message. Dare to tell to two companies. Valves you know well this is really something. That's going to drag down global growth just because it's a virus outbreak that we've had in civil cases before and by far not a severe a normal influenza. At same time central banks will likely standby would liquidity as we saw from the BBC and the fetzer ongoing that other central banks would have to. I think that's liquidity operation. Pretty effective at. If you think about the shock to which is went through it could be much more severe if we do not have liquidity injections by the BBC and ongoing by the Fares. So we'll do. It should be an abuser J. Follow with something like that. Not Not unlike. If if we're getting more downdraft and data I want to go back to something you were talking about. The sort technical factor with hedge funds going short treasuries and insurance companies. Pensions going long particularly on the long end. And I'm wondering if this is short squeeze that were observing which is really responsible for the rally that we're seeing in treasuries then is it potentially not that negative or even positive for equities because it keeps borrowing costs so low that it continues to support the relative Valuation Cau- Case for equities. I think you're right about that. Because if if bonds work well as in total return as a hedge against downside risk was in lo long asha manager would do a few in addition that you say low borrowing costs which affect positively for corporations and housing and zoom spending. Then yes this is typically by the way the case when you have fight to safety leave or not to actually stimulus to the economy very often happened that way we saw it in August of two and subsequent data recovers low interest of falling long-term interest rates. Tend to do so. I think this is another phase of like shorts crease. Fight to safety leads to ultimate symbol economy and that could be positive for some of the Consensus trades that we heard coming into twenty twenty. Was maybe this time we're international markets will outperform the. Us does this growing concern about the global economy featuring China's call that trade into into play maybe into question. I'm actually on the side. Poll that actually makes it even more compelling than before and he here's why so if you think about the data that's coming out now say to be made in Japan overnight or the expert orders Taiwan and so forth pretty big drop Shin that data right and that's what you would expect if you have a production shutdown in China extraordinary to to go to that at the moment but the more that data drops the encouraging the V-SHAPE as we call recovery would become more on that camp which makes actually the relative value difference between us and four Marcus even more compelling and yes. The evaluation of Asian markets is at a twenty percent discount relative to US markets and if the US markets have benefited much from a flight to safety with stock. Values are bunk. Mcvay up in the dollar up it becomes a case at some point that's anticipating v-shape that four and ashes of more attractive so I remain on that trade. It's just a little bit knocked out of bounds for your score. It will come back in the second. I think when is bad news? Bad News again. Well that's another good point of course because we have a little bit markets today is about is worth. Pan-demic is becoming epidemic in Asia and then spills to the rest of the globe but he also had to put in perspective. Our previous viruses have worked. They tend to do spread around and it really comes down to think about the infrastructure in countries how to deal with an outbreak of a you know to most worrying would be in south. Africa are African nations. Right will do not have any infrastructure nasty. Who Worn for but fully developed. Marcus a different story and because Marcus react now because a virus outbreak links to you know production shutdown delay of any kind of activity because people stay home. That's still a lot of work around. I think too that to computer preparing to say you know despite cheerful shift will happen anyway. I'm going to prepared if need. Continue my production because you had here to stockholders show by and large I think pandemic is to fear factor markets but ultimately. I think it's still going to be a recovery from here. Not Not a recession okay. Benjamin's thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate chatting with you as we do periodically managing director global macro strategy for global partners. Joining us here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio really interesting to hear how the decline in yields could end up being a positive for stocks. Even though people usually right at the flight to safety as being a negative message for equities sort of the modern conundrum of markets. Absolutely so we had the S&P down here twenty five off the lows. The Dow down two hundred three points. That's twenty nine thousand. Oh Nineteen on the Dow Jones industrials. This is Bloomberg I B. K. R. Is it professionals gateway to the world's markets? I Care Offers Commission starting at zero dollars for US listed stocks and ATS Enhanced Price Execution via IB smart routing and access to their powerful trader workstation web mobile and API trading platforms joined clients from two hundred countries to invest globally in stocks options futures forex bonds and funds from a single integrated account at the lowest cost at I b. k. r. dot com check in with Bloomberg opinion. We're joined by opinion. Calmness terror La Chapelle. She covers all things industrial for Bloomberg opinion and for those worn buffet watchers tomorrow and very important day. That's when Berkshire hathaway releases its annual letter. We get a sense of kind of how Warren is viewing. The world helps preview that we have our good friend. Tara Tara again. Warren Buffett watchers. Tomorrow's a big day. What's the expectation here? Because they'd been Kinda quiet on the acquisition front. I think what people are really hoping for. Is that Warren? Buffet is going to talk a little bit. More about what he's GonNa do with all that cash Berkshire Hathaway's cash was one hundred. Twenty eight billion dollars in the latest quarter that they reported so we'll find out tomorrow when his letter comes out. We'll have The fourth quarter earnings report with it. And we'll see if that cash moved at all he didn't make any significant acquisitions during the period as we know and last week we got their thirteen. Fbi filing saw that they didn't really Make any tremendous purchases in the stock market. Either he bought a stake in Kroger small stake in biogen but nothing really big and we don't think that they've done a lot of Berkshire by backseat. Even though he's talked about doing matt so hopefully he. Can you know get people excited about what's going to happen? And maybe he'll be able to find his big elephant the sheer the big acquisition. He's been trying to do. He turns ninety in August. So one would think that know. Time is of the essence. And he'd want to do something. Yeah although throwing some cold water on that Berkshire Vice Chair saying an interview with Bloomberg. We're gradually getting more pessimistic about using our money. It's been a long time since we bought anything. This is Charlie monger and I have to say again. Warren Buffett problems. The idea that you just have so much money. You don't know what to do with it but you raise a really good question. Tara which is why don't they buy back more? Shares or just give massive dividends to their investors. We're not sure. And we know Buffett and Munger are really opposed to the idea of a dividend. And he's kind of started to mention that more often the last couple years it used to be kind of unheard of that. They would even do something like that. So the fact that he's brought it up. I don't think they're at the point of being willing to pay a one time special dividends. I think maybe that's something. His successor would wanna be able to have the opportunity to do. Should they need it But I think buffet his goals still fighting a deal and monger always tends to be more pessimistic one of the two buffet and his letter every year. You know he always gives up pep talk about America. And how great? America's prospects are you know. Kids born today are better off than he was and so on and so forth and. I don't think that'll change in this letter. But I think you will see that growing frustration with the markets that he just hasn't been able to find anything to put this money to work on. It's interesting a Terry mentioned succession. Where what's the status of that? They just kick. This can down the road and down the road. We haven't even greater clarity. I know there's some new hires pre senior positions. But what's the latest? I think if anything. It's gotten more uncertain because so a couple years ago they did promote Greg able to run to be vice chairman of everything that didn't have to do with their insurance business and had sheet Shane. Who came from the insurance side? They put him in charge of their huge insurance operations. And so that kind of set the two up to be the next in line to become successor as a little bit older and it seems like rag is kind of the favorite for the job. Greg also got to speak at last year's annual meeting for the first time publicly which was kind of unusual and I think really symbolic but then todd combs who came from the investing side of the business was promoted to run GEICO and I think that got a lot of people thinking that is todd and other person that he's looking out or maybe they will be sort of a split role. When his successor's takeover someone doing capital allocation and other person running the operational side of the business? We just don't know so. Hopefully he addresses that though knowing buffet. He probably won't say very much. Although in two thousand nineteen just to put this into perspective of how much pressure they're under They missed deals and their shares row at a slower. Pay Rose at a slower pace than sap five hundred it was their worst underperformance since two thousand and nine there's a question is their strategy one that fit with another time in history of the stock markets. That is no longer and that. They're really coming to that realization at a time when they aren't sure how to deploy their cash. It's true I mean the true. Buffet stands they. Don't really worry much about the stock price and the fact that it's lagging which is kind of funny. It's very unusual trait that Berkshire has still. But I think after going to last year's meeting and seeing that the investor base really reflected what we see at Berkshire itself where it's skews older. These are people that have a lot of respect for buffet. But I don't know how they get that younger generation interested in a stock that's lagging so much so I think this is going to become a bigger question when his successor is in charge. You know does this strategy worked as being a big conglomerate with all this cash. It's very difficult to put. Your work is is that the best way to run this or do they need to change strategy and and. I don't think that'll ever happen under buffet. But I think those questions start to arise when you think about when he's not there any longer so you're working tomorrow Tara honestly. Why do they do it on Saturday? I think you know. He's he has said who knows if this is the case but he has said that he doesn't want the stock overreacting to things when they released stirring closer to mark at times and especially now that the way they have to report their stock holdings and how that changes their earnings. But I think he just likes Saturday because nobody else is gonNA compete. Say Sterilize Chapelle Bloomberg opinion. Thank you so much as always for your insights here really amazing one hundred twenty eight billion dollars of Hash. They own two hundred and fifty million shares of Apple. Yeah they've actually more than doubled the shareholdings since two thousand sixteen when they started getting in their own seventy nine billion dollars of the shares but Warren Buffett said this is not a tech story for him it's one of share buybacks and dividends as well as the consumer story which is really interesting. That's what he understands more than the tech side economic data this morning that showed. Us Business. Activity shrank in February for the first time since two thousand thirteen as a corona virus hit supply chains and made firms hesitant to place orders to get a sense of what's going on. We welcome our good friend. Tom Or Alexa chief economist. For Bloomberg Economics spent lived and worked many years in Beijing has a real feel for what's going on in China. He joins us from our Bloomberg Ninety. Nine one studio in Washington DC. Tom Thanks so much for joining us. So the data that came out of the market today really brought home for many in the market that this corona virus is going to be an economic event. It appears where do you see the biggest risk from what's going on in China right now? I'm I'm I'm a bit surprised to see this hitting the US services sector so early Certainly this is going to be a big blow for China in the first quarter. Certainly there's going to be supply chain smell ups which are going to mean the impact ripples around Asia and around the world the US though seems a little way away suddenly the US services sector is not very integrated into what's going on in China and in some ways the trade will Was By president trump trying to get more access for the US services sector to the Chinese economy Say the fact that we're seeing the US numbers coming off So much in so quickly I think rings in the Lumbao The the global ripples from this virus could be bigger and other pay more quickly than anyone anticipated. Tom Is also an implication that perhaps there was more weakness underneath that was building regardless of the krona virus. Yeah I mean that is also Something to think by Lisa People were coming into Twenty twenty with a certain amount of optimism We had some easing from the fats. We had easing from the People's Bank of China. Ecb did what they could to spur European growth. Of course the trade truce Men there was some optimism about what was going to have to exports over the course of the year The Corona virus has completely changed the narrative At a minimum. It means any kind of recovery is going to be delayed until the second quarter It could mean that we're in for another year of very bumpy growth and elevated risks of a diner so Tom Baseman. Ya The work you've done the contacts you have in China. What's your best. Guess as to how the economy's really being impacted how much our people back to work. How many how much you know. What percentage are staying are still at home? What percentage of the economy is really back versus off line? I guess I mean is fourteen. Trillion dollar question will and we've been trying to answer it through a variety of different means We've been looking at high frequency dates on passenger travel We've been looking at fx trading volume which is a proxy for what's going on with imports and exports. We've been reading the Cooper Nine Smith speaking to all contacts across China Our best estimate is around. Fifty percents of China is back to work I'm sustained over. The course of a month would mean that China's GDP in the first quarter doesn't grow tool. I am potentially contracts or the sequential basis. This is this is important especially what you were saying earlier about. How in the entire world there seems to be a faster bleed through of the effect of the corona virus and an efforts to contain it. I'm wondering whether you think that this calls into question the v-shaped recovery that so many economists are talking about when we think about China One of the reasons why. I'm not succumbing to extreme pessimism right now is because China's government is really effective at closing things dying. We see that right now. Hundreds of millions of people effectively under lockdown under quarantine but China's government is going to be really effective Opening things up again as well We've just had some announcements from the polit bureau the top level of China leadership and they indicate that the balance of concern in China. Well certainly. That's still very concerned by the I break public health and and minimizing risks but that also increasingly concerned by growth and getting people back to work And I think one possibility in the next week or two If the government thinks that the public health risks can be contained is that we see an accelerated. Move to get trained. His work is back into the factories back in the offices which point the v-shaped recovery which a lot of people kind of implicitly pencilling in We'll start to look like more of a real possibility a timer you. I know in your work. You look kind of a corporation say do. Are You surprised as pests? Earning season we haven't had more companies. Call out the corona virus as a risk to either their supply chain or their demand. I mean I know. Apple did a pretty high profile way. But I'm surprised at like even dear today didn't really mention that much at corona virus being risk right so so on this pool. I I WANNA give a brief shy tyke to our colleagues in Bloomberg intelligence who had just comprehensively on top of the Industrial Story and the company story and and certainly suggest that people go and take a look at what they're saying to get all the details on the industry level Impact what we've done is trying track corporate announcements To give us a a kind of view on the supply chain risks I'm one of the things which struck US reading through around a hundred and eighty corporate transcripts. is that the degree of concern. That we're hearing from the multinational boardroom. Doesn't really match up with the bleak reality on the ground in China. Yes there are certainly more boardrooms. More corporations Ni- token if the risks and giving some detailing some color on how they see. It impacting company. But there's an awful lot saying yeah we're going to wait and see or yeah. We see some risks. But we've got some in Ventura said we're going to manage through And to us. That doesn't seem to be sufficiently taking a kind of the the way in which China has really closed dine knife for several weeks. Ten more like thank you so much for being with us. For a dose of reality of wire. Not totally jumping on the pessimism. Bandwagon just yet But still have some concerns. What's going on? Yeah I think his his estimate coming on Bloomberg economics about maybe forty to fifty percent of the economy is still kind of off. Line is a nets up. That's a big number and it just kind of calls into question. The duration is Thomas suggesting if it goes on for the longer could have imperial impact on Q. On GDP yeah. Tom MARLA chief economist for Bloomberg Economics. There's also the question of the spread. Throughout Asia Japan and South Korea in particular in the forefront with Japan seeing its cases double overnight South Korea also seeing an increase Japan in the population is older. There is a culture and take a sick day So people coming in and there are a number of cases that have been popping up in different parts of the government can't really track a lot of pressure on that government given the fact already that there seemed to be a slowdown in the works in. This seems to be affecting the yen which is very much been in the focus and weakening although today cut a stable thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Piano. Podcast you can subscribe and listened to interviews at Apple podcasts or whatever podcast platform you prefer on Paul Sweeney. I'm on twitter at PT. Sweeney and Lisa Abramowicz on twitter at Lisa Abramowicz. One before the podcast. You can always catch US worldwide. I'm Bloomberg radio.

United States China Bloomberg Michael Bloomberg president Bernie Sanders trump Warren Buffett Democratic Party Buffet Mark Apple Tara Tara Bloomberg Economics Donald Trump Asia Bloomberg Dot Com Mark Rosenberg San Francisco
Chapter 2: Testing the suicide theory

Accused

53:49 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 2: Testing the suicide theory

"Before we start a disclaimer. We're going to talk about suicide in this episode and because of the unusual circumstances of this case will be more descriptive give about the suspected method than we normally would. We have to be. Frankly if we want to examine whether it was even possible for those of you who who struggle with thoughts of suicide. I'm a big believer in organizations like crisis text line and the national suicide prevention hotline. They exist is to get you through the toughest days as I like to say no one reaches eighty and says they wish they killed themselves at twenty things. Do get better and now I'll move on previously on accused to tell you about the guy they found in the salt of six fix. It was a Brenner work third shift and he disappeared and he showed me this furnace. It had molten salt or just looked like law always look that way made what I thought was a thorough search the plant I just knew in my mind I was never gonNA get any resolution to it. Nobody could have put him in there other than putting himself. I'm amber hunt and this is accused the mysterious death of David box former Hamilton. County sheriff's detective. Peter all day RUCCI dozen equivocate when it comes to how David box died. I still think he committed suicide. I still say hundred percent. No one who knew David well agrees but that can happen when someone kills himself. People can hide depression. They can become masters at disguising the pain they feel inside loved. Ones can be blindsided especially if there's no note so imagine if there's no body. I can't know for sure whether David was suicidal. I never met him so I wouldn't pretend to try but I'll be up front want that. I have trouble with the suicide theory. The reason I have trouble is the way David would have had to have done it. What we determined that he wants commit suicide? He had to get back. Run up those steps in either jump or dive in that small. Opening other rookies theory. In short it is that David either dove or cannon balled into a VAT of molten salt. It sounds awful and we can debate the likelihood that anyone would choose to die in such a way but that really wouldn't get us anywhere to me. The bigger question is whether it was even physically possible That's what we'll be looking at in today's episode from Black Friday hangovers and winter closet splurges to unwanted gifts and tons of trash wrapping paper. Our favorite season also happens to be one of of the most stressful and wasteful times of the year threat up. The world's largest online thrift store is here to help because whether you're shopping for yourself or for a loved one choosing used instead of new means you're being gentler on your wallet and the planet. There's something for everyone at threat up. You can score coach handbags for twenty twenty five dollars. 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It was my mom who decided who wanted the divorce. And of course my dad came very Catholic family and a strong willed mother and he didn't want it. But you know he obliged that's Casey Drake box David starter. She says the divorce was who says heartbreaking to David as it was a wakeup call after his marriage imploded. David quit drinking alcohol cold Turkey in the throes of alcohol hall withdrawal. He started hallucinating. While he was detoxing. Withdrawal can do that. It's serious stuff. David would say things that struck his brother. Peter Peter and their parents is odd. Almost like somebody had crossed a few wires in his brain or knock things out of order. This landed David on a hospital. L. Psychiatric Ward where. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia. In nineteen seventy six while hospitalized. He told doctors he felt guilty about his divorce He figured it was mostly his fault. He said because he didn't spend enough time with his family. Once David was released he worked hard to write things He stayed friendly with this X.. And moved in with his parents. The timing worked out because David's mom was ill so he was there to help take care of her. She had a stroke and died in nineteen seventy nine seven months after his mom staff. David's brother Peter took him to the University of Cincinnati Medical Center. Peter told doctors that he thought David was struggling with their mother's death but it was more than that. He was also butting heads with his father. Casey Seve remembers that her dad and her grandfather were sometimes at odds her grandfather was strong willed New Yorker bed. Ed Demanding My my dad always tried to be the son that they love the most Astir at least in his opinion which was his brother. Paul could never live up to his brother. Paul none of them so he felt really taken by that so no matter what he did he always felt that he was never good enough for my grandfather. Grandmother make us you know. He wasn't Paul. Gibbons Paul was the oldest of the three sons he'd gone to college gotten a graduate degree then moved west and worked in computer sales David and his other brother. Peter just weren't as book smart as Paul. They both stayed in Ohio and got jobs. Their parents parents didn't boast about as often as Paul's David especially was content with being a laborer. He didn't read much but he was good with his hands. It always bothered him that his dad didn't seem to value that Casey says the hospital notes from this time period are in that language. Only psychiatrist US David was in a state of internal disorganization and he demonstrated psychotic thought blocking Iran. That through a Google translator of sorts. And it means he couldn't get his spots ordered enough to speak so he would sometimes struggle to answer questions for up to a minute at a time. It's a common common symptom of schizophrenia. The report also says David quote did not report hallucinations and said he had no thought of hurting himself. Or others and quote quote the doctrine note suggest. His condition wasn't severe. He stayed in the hospital for three weeks. Went home on a medication called trillion about three months later he was cooking a meal for his ex wife and kids when he impulsively took three hundred milligrams of Trillo Fon nearly ten times. His prescribed dose of thirty two milligrams that landed him back in the hospital. Though for a brief or stay it was while he was there that time. That David Stat died of Empha- Zima but the doctor's notes that he handled the news. Pretty well if anything. It might have been a relief. This was early nineteen eighty and and it marks David's last hospitalization his psychiatrist Clifford Cruelly. The third wasn't convinced that trill Ifan overdose was a genuine attempt to kill himself. It seemed to the doctor more like an impulsive cry for help. David stayed on his medication and continued regularly seeing the doctor who gradually lowered David's dose of trilogy onto eight milligrams when police combed David's house after his disappearance Prince they found a prescription bottle with the appropriate number of pills missing for the month. It seemed David was still taking medication regularly. The coworkers we interviewed had no clue. He had been diagnosed with a mental illness. That isn't surprising really given the stigma attached and the fact that David wasn't much of talker anyway and besides those hospitalizations came before David was even hired it for an old by nineteen eighty-four. He was by all accounts a hardworking seemingly together man. It was tough not living with his kids but he wasn't alone. He and his brother inherited their parents parents house and live together up until the year before David staff at that point David Refinance the house just enough to buy Peter's half so peter could move him with his wife Hyphen Stepchildren. David's kids were shielded from his psychiatric issues but his daughter Casey would eventually find and file notes from. I'm David Psychiatrist. WHO has since died for years? She kept the notes as well as a bunch of other documents and a box. She labeled Dad's death that's box before she led a mandate and I borrow the box. For this project she scribbled the label out where you might creep us out it didn't Dr girlies notes describe a sensitive man. Who wanted to be well? He told police he had last. Seen David in April and everything had been unstable for years since that last hospitalization in fact to Greeley said he often talked about David as one of his success stories. David had rebounded so fully so heartily that Cruelly Brag about him he was shocked by the death and dubious. David would kill himself. Casey was to in. She still is today. Her memories of her father aren't of a withdrawn depressed man. Yes he had struggled gold during and after the divorce but he and Carleen. That's Casey's mother's name we're comfortably co-parenting as they call it today they were cordial you know they worked everything out. If my dad was little short on money to pay for child support them they worked everything out very well. You know you hear of so many people that have you know their each other's throats in front of the kids behind the kids around the you know. I mean they had a very can divorce relationship that I can tell. David didn't date. After his divorce he led a life that was a lot like personality quiet one for an all-day employees remembered poking fun at David at work the reason I used to kid him USA required to take shower required twice in fact at at the start and end of each shift to curtail contamination. You had were shower shoes. He never wore anytime. I said you don't get your feel one of these days. And he goes through their barefooted. That was George Beset. One of David's CO workers. Harry Sterling was another. He was in fact. The Guy who carpooled with David most shifts he remember. David is nice if not chatty the night of the disappearance hairy last saw David at lunchtime because assist was third shift. Their lunch break was around four in the morning. Harry told police David was quiet that lunch but no more than usual. They ate eight without saying much eating together. Were Harry David and a supervisor of theirs named Charlie Schaus Harry's the one who left the written notes for David saying sorry. I waited as long as I could. Thirty five years later. He still struggled to understand what could have happened that night. Here's US talking. In January January twenty nineteen was there anything in his state of mind including maybe seeming happier than usual that on curriculum. Let me tell you this. He had just bought a new lunchbox. I guess he bought it that day before we went into work because you we went upstairs to eat it was like hey. Where'd you get that man? I just bought this box and I'm thinking why if the guy's going to jump into something like that kill herself would go buy a brand new spots but you know they say people do weird things when they're contemplating suicide. That's true. Get I. I talked to a pathologist about a different case Jason. He said you know Survivors often think of you. Know why rationally would he have done X Y and Z. And he's like go. You can't apply ration because suicide is irrational. Okay so I always dropping kids on vacation to. Yeah so what is what is your guy. What do you think happened? got a clue never did never did figure out what was what happened for the people who knew him outside of work all said the same thing even if David had crossed the threshold into suicidal thoughts and hit it. There's there's no way he would have done it by throwing himself into a VAT of molten salt. I mean who would do that like I said though. That's not really the question I wanna WanNa answer. Would I want to know is. Was it even possible excuses. Quick break the episode. You're listening to now was released east already on our patron page at Patriotair Dot com slash accused. You can get early ad free episodes there as well as bonus episodes behind the scenes peeks. Qna Rene sessions and even a brand new crime in journalism. podcast if you like what we do here consider joining us over there for this episode. We're releasing video and photos. Goes from our efforts to build a replica of that in which David box for means were discovered again for this content and more support us at Patriotair Dot com slash. Accused him on a hot July by day. A group of co-workers and I gathered together on my front lawn with a stack of two by fours a box of screws and power tools. Our goal was to build a big old rectangle box with an opening matching the dimensions of the salt. That at Fernald we would have loved to have seen the bat itself itself but it was destroyed more than twenty years ago. All we have left her photographs and sketches which luckily included measurements. We also have the memories of former workers. It just looks like hell. I mean it just looked like what you look down at Hill and there was a big hole in the ground. That's what it looked like. Big Open rid hone aground. That's Harry again. In total Harry worked at Fernald for about five years and had seen the salt fat and plants and six plenty of times he describes it as a hole in the ground but in reality it was a few feet off the ground workers would sometimes gathered a look at at it. He said the slurry inside glowed. Cherry red like lava volcano. Yeah here are the dimensions. Given police reports the was four feet deep three feet wide and ten and a half feet long. It's Walsworth thick. It's inside for only accessible from the top which was usually covered by a long live that protected most of the opening I say most because even when the lid was on it didn't quite white reached the top edge of the VAT onside. That opening was too small to be really useful so a huge piece of equipment set nearby that workers would use. I used to hook onto a handle in the center of the LID and lifted off. Once the VAT was open. The uranium ingots described an episode. One could be lowered inside inside. Harry sounded scared of the bat but some of the workers had fun with it good. It's been said that some people take apples over there. They and in order to get rid of the core they pitch it up into the salt bath tank which was pretty effect. This is is Jessie Be a former for an old worker interviewed for the Living History Project in nineteen ninety nine when he says the salt bath was effective at getting rid of the apple cores. He's understating things a bit. It gets a little SCIENC- but the gist is. That was so ungodly hot. Got The water. Content content in the fruit would get zapped merely instantly causing a small explosion. The only problem was there was enough moisture and that apple record. When he hit that hot soul it would react and we've put salt on the top long rule from plant six would go off like a shot? Like a very enlarge shotgun. Boy took her the Albacore. They lost little salt process to. It wasn't always always fruit they use. Here's Melvin Dot clearer. We'd have these rubber gloves we'd wear and fill up with water. Take little rubber gloves thought furnace and it was about people playful mood with no supervisor in the first minute pop in like August shot the complied out of the office. The office read your next door. They'd be in where it's cool. We working I see what what happened. They'd go back near they check their heads. You know now you know how hot you can get when you stand next to your oven while you're cooking that's usually in the three hundred to four hundred degree range. Standing next to this bat was uncomfortable especially for any length of time. The plant didn't have special suits for or the workers to wear while near this thing and they generally didn't need them when they would lower the ingots. They do it from a distance using special industrial equipment and Harry Remembers. There was a ladder that you could theoretically used to climb to reach the top. Not that he ever saw anyone using it surprising up to call it a ladder they call it a stairway and it was used to walk up the stairway and then go around the outside edge of it em would that be comfortable or would you be getting hot. The new beginning hot. How Hot Lake? I'm an Asana or I'm going to be up now. Okay Asana so uncomfortable but bearable bright for the record this isn't how Aldo Rucci remembers the detective recalls it being far too hot to even stand next to the vet but we've we've talked to several workers who agree with Harry's memory. This thing was not pleasant but it was possible to stand by it for a short length of time. Regardless what the various people agree on is arguably the most important aspect the opening that allowed access to the thirteen hundred fifty degrees slurry lurie inside with small really small it measured about twenty two inches wide and nine inches deep. Basically if you take two who sheets of paper and tape them together lengthwise I just half an inch to the short side. And you've got the opening steps now. Imagine fitting your body the into that. We use tape to mark the opening on the floor of the accused war room and then ask them male co worker nearby to stand on top of it at looked awfully awfully tight but maybe possible to really test it. I decided we had to do our best. To build a replica about two by fours and four by fours from I'm home depot and asked a worker there to cut them to the right measurements. It was an interesting project to explain. Then my colleagues from work out ended up my house. Amanda was there of course accused editor. Amy Wilson accused intern Mark Rosenberg and enquirer news intern Josh Code. I'd sent out a note to the newsroom looking for someone. Roughly David boxes measurements. Josh was the closest to volunteer. He wasn't a perfect match though. David David was supposedly between one hundred. Eighty two hundred pounds in about six feet tall. Josh is about the right way to around one hundred and eighty pounds. But he's six four four rather than six feet in short. He's skinnier than David was if he fit. It might not mean that David would but if he didn't well that would make it hard to imagine. David could cannonball into that whole the five of us used for by fours this posts and created a rectangular box that was four feet tall. Aw Three feet wide and six feet long the measurements all lined up with the real except the link the real that was ten and a half feet long but evidence David entering the VAT with only near the opening anyway so I didn't feel it was too critical to the experiment. I opted to spare the extra trees Home Depot Had done all of the rough cuts for me but I needed to hand cut about opening myself. I used a hunk of plywood to simulate the cover and then you circular in Jerusalem to slice in an opening of twenty two by nine inches. Then we screwed the plywood to the top of our that and grabbed a ladder. Mark the accused in turn got the inaugural attempt because favouritism. He's slim and five nine. So far smaller than David facing sway or like turned and facing you know I would face this way because then you can go to your body. Yeah and I'm going to yeah. Do not try to jump in just looking ease yourself in. He'd made it inside but only by keeping keeping his body stiff and perfectly upright and even then it was tight around his torso next came Josh. WHO's slightly closer in proportions to David? I'm getting hard-right beer shoulders. Yeah keep going. What do you do he would have been had I? I wouldn't it so he would have been. That's the only way he couldn't get his lower half into the whole without shimmying his rear back and forth the way you might if you were trying to force on a pair of too tight jeans. His shoulders were in even tighter fit because sal to reach. He said his theory was that David either jumped or dove. We had josh. Try carefully to enter our hands. I that made needed even harder. Can you through there I can I just. I'm I need to be able to touch the ground which I'm probably able to in a few seconds. We're saying yeah you know I think the Divan just for the fact that like once the bin it would in the mating wouldn't work because you're going to have car you're going to be curved your accent your neck. Would Kat your shoulders. It'd be you'd be like right near your your head would explode you laying here. Thank volume of your body is over on this side. It bothered us that we hadn't seen great great full body picture of David to really get a sense of his size his son. Tony thinks the hundred and eighty two hundred pound estimate was a bit low even he he put his dad closer to two twenty. This is Casey again. He was kind of built like What does that actor's name played in forty forty eight hours nick? Nolte okay kind of like that Nick Nolte or because he I used to kind of be about the size he was in forty eight hours. All right I spent weeks eyeing my male co workers in a way that should have landed me in human resources but luckily everyone was understanding once I explained finally after probably a dozen inappropriate questions for weights and heights nights. We found Tyler Dragon. He's the enquirer's lead bengals reporter. He's six foot two and two hundred and thirty pounds slightly heavier than David Food but also slightly taller. His proportions are very close to how Tony described his dad. He wasn't quite as tall as I am. He was about about an inch shorter than I was. I'm six two and a half. He was about six one. He was a pipe fitter so he had really really a big upper body strength in his shoulders and his chest he was really. He was both bulky in his chest arms Uh Stalking got real stalking strong as an ox race through. But it takes a bit of maneuvering like you went in one leg at a time with some with some maneuvering with get your hands on the side shifting shoulder to shoulder actually. Do you mind going back lake from the under so I can see how tight it is on the shoulders. Yeah yeah like I I mean I can get through but there are touching. These experiments did not assuage my doubts. In each case the volunteer could fit. But not without wiggling. There's another other thing to keep in mind to whether David could physically pull off this. Specific method of suicide is about more than whether he could cram his body into a small opening winning. It's also about whether he could do that. Virtually without a trace while entering a VAT of lava so hot that it made apple cores explode upon upon impact. This part of the episode is going to describe the supposed how of David's death. The suicide theory is correct. Normally okay. We wouldn't go into this kind of detail. Experts say suicide contagion Israel and the risk of a copycat increases when you're explicit about the method. We we don't expect. Many people have access to a thirteen hundred and fifty degree back of potassium chloride and sodium chloride mixed together. And we think it's important to understand the physics of what would have happened in order to weigh the likelihood that it did so bear with us. Here what we focus on the how rather than the WHO And be warned. It gets pretty complicated so I'll do my best to keep things simple. As mentioned earlier when workers toss fruit into the back they would explode. An apple is about sixty five percent. Water a human body is about ninety percent. Obviously there's never been a controlled experiment in which it living human was tossed into a substance like this for knol never even had a comparable accident to shed light on how things might have happened. It's all conjecture picture. But it's not uneducated conjecture as part of the original investigation. David's bosses commissioned a scientist named DB he cuts to posit how the slurry would have reacted to David's body. Entering or as cats more fancily says quote calculate the expected temperature effects resulting from the immersion of a human body in the molten salt bath and quote and I thought topsy were too clinical sounding. Cats came up with four scenarios and then did some SCIENC- math stuff to figure out how many degrees the slurry would have dipped. If that's really how the salt bath had had reacted to David's body. He wanted to see which scenario resulted in a temperature. Dip that lined up the closest with what was actually recorded following. Let me so far. We're looking for the temp to dip to thirteen. Hundred and twenty two degrees scenario one when the body was immersed it quickly heated up to match the salaries temperature and then the water inside the body evaporated. If that had been held the slurry reacted to David entering it the temperature in the batch. It should have dropped one hundred and nine degrees to twelve forty one. That's too big a dip. Scenario to the body's water evaporates before it heats up enough to reach the slurs temperature. The temperature drop in. That case is forty nine degrees down to thirteen. O One still still too big a drop those first two scenarios are pretty straightforward. Because they don't figure in the resistance heaters. This gets complicated but it has to do with the way the molten salt was heated in the first place there were these electrodes immersed inside and the that was designed to stay a constant in temperature so as David's body lowered the slurs temp those electrodes would have been fighting to raise it back up. That was their whole job as soon as the temperature dropped just two degrees. Those heaters kicked on 'em work to heat things up again. So scenario three is just just like scenario one but with the formula tweak to assume the electrodes did their job the temperature would have dropped seventy five degrees to twelve seventy five mm-hmm remember. We're looking for the thirteen twenty range so this dip is still too big scenario. Four at the ELECTRODE HOOPLA to scenario to the water in David's body evaporated without reaching the slurry temperature. I this would have dropped the temperature. Fifteen degrees to thirteen hundred and fifty five If we're looking for thirteen twenty two now we're too high. The final scenario is number five. Which takes the first theory that David's body heated up to thirteen fifty? Before the water evaporated plus the resistance heaters adding heat plus one more thing. Remember how apple's would explode mm-hmm yeah. This scenario assumed that the non water portion of David's body would have combusted the way the apples did that would have dropped the temperatures turn sixty two degrees making the final bath temperature. Twelve hundred eighty eight now. We're too low again. Cats the scientists whose matthew the Justice wrote in his memo that he thought David's body would have exploded like the apples or is he said it quote scenario number five. It's expected to most closely approximate. The actual bizarre events postulated to have occurred at the salt bath. Furnace and quote perplexed. lex Tim that his temperature calculations didn't line up with that scenario. The fourth scenario the water in David's body evaporated before it reached thirteen. I'm fifty degrees and the resistance heaters. Did their jobs is the one that comes closest. But it's still more than thirty degrees off and it clearly wasn't the scenario. Oh catch thought was most likely those apples they would hit the slurry and the water inside would've operates so quickly that the non water part the apple combusted. It was violent cats thought. That's what would have happened to David to. And there's reason to think that it kind of did the. The underside of the vet slid was coded by that sick dark material that none of the workers had ever seen before it was like a crusty or version of the black black sludge found on top of the actual slurry. Investigators figured that win the body. Hit the slurry the water about berated quickly and the non water parts combusted leaving their mark on the lid that was only four feet deep and David was six feet tall from our experiments. The only way David could possibly fit through the opening was to enter a completely upright. He couldn't have Dovan an angle. He was too broad to enter that way. He couldn't have cannonball either even if his aim had been perfect. His hips in rear would have gotten stuck in the entrance. You would think that both of these ways in would have been messy leaving bits of clothing or bone or flesh on the outside of the VAT. None of that was found. The only thing mentioned outside of the vet the report was a small bid the black sludge. Otherwise there's nothing amiss on the outside. There's another issue too as explained in episode one the temperature in that dipped two distinct times within a short time period that implies that something entered two separate times so for just a second. Let's set aside the opening size for a minute and assume it was big enough for David. If you envision. David's body entering and getting dissolved resolved suicide seems hellish but plausible David jumps in lakes. I the bottom half of him disintegrates. And once it's gone the top half slides through the whole and follow suit therefore his body enters have and you get to depths but if Dr Katz was right the body wouldn't have just simply dissolved. It would have exploded. How could it have combusted but left no clothing fragments? No bones. No bits of flesh or appendages appendages. When something that big explodes with it really stay? So self contained trusting. Dr Katz is calculations. The slurry temperature temperature dipped too much for that scenario. So what if David's full-body didn't go in at once if half of his hundred eighty to two hundred pound body one in first just then. The second half went in a bit later. How would that affect the numbers? Unfortunately cats is memo. Didn't include any equations for us to provide another scientists ientist to double check and high school science speak. He didn't show his work. You still. I wanted to chat with scientists to at least run these scenarios. Pass someone someone other than cats. I've found physiologist whose expertise looked like. It would be helpful and then I sent him the most bizarre and morbid email. I've probably he ever sent. My name is Christopher Minson. I'm a professor at University of Oregon in the Department of Human Physiology and weirded out all your colleagues asking about my my query weirded out a lot of people one or two people actually said. I can't even talk about this. No look into my life. Exactly one of them said. I'm a very visual person. I can't do this over like I'm a visual person too but I still want to do it so well. Thank thank you very much for taking the time and not being weirded out when I e mailed I sent Minson the memo that cats had drafted after mulling the scenarios in chatting with colleagues for or a few days. He talked on the phone with me about his thoughts. I found that really really interesting. I think They did a very good job as far as Looking through and identifying the the potential effects of dropping body into one thousand three hundred fifty degree Temperature is seeing the temperature off from that kind of match the right size. He found on the second dip especially curious. It's possible he said that. The first step was from David's body being immersed initially and then the second dip was when moisture evaporated from his body I would have thought that it would evaporate faster than the or the almost almost instantaneous. But is pretty clear that that's not the case and so The those really compelling and certainly Vapid Choline power strong and so that that again matched with as satisfying as that body when there seems to be for sure Minson disagreed with cat hat. Someone key point. He's less inclined to think a human body would explode once in the solution because human skin isn't as thick as apple skin. I was suspect it would behave differently. Simply because our skin tissue more than the hard work hard casing Watermelon right in that case it's GonNa evaporate the waters insides expanded so fast it's GonNa explode outside the Shell We don't really have a hard shell in. Our skin can definitely the skin. As soon as a skin touch it's gonNA start blistering and the water skinny operate out. You know It is is conceivable that that could happen but is never heard anything about people spontaneously ainsley exploding in that kind of regard or any kind of tissue. I haven't heard of that either but then I've never heard of anything analogous to this scenario period. Ed The closest thing I could think of would be someone dying in what Harry Easterling said the slurry look like lava. That's how I found out him. Ken't Volkan allergists with Oregon State University. He said he's asked surprisingly frequently. What would happen if a human went into a volcano so he'd already given given a fair amount of thought before he got my query? I guess it's one of those bizarre Macabre subjects that gets the imagination going. He directed me online to a video of someone tossing crossing a bag of what's described as organic waste into a volcano. I hear a pop like a gunshot is the bag of waste. DROPS CBS through the top layer of black molten rock and causes a stream of glowing red lava to burst through the camera recording. This is too far away to captured the rest of the sound but you can see a series of explosions for more and more lava out opening a huge hole in the crusty. Top layer can't explains any water in the human body or other wet material would PR- pretty much very quickly if not instantaneously turned to steam That steam would be Much higher pressure than the liquid water was and we're trying to escape the lava retards that and then so you get But as you get sort of pressure released explosions cause pressure connery's foster enough of the lava or so much. They can't get out of the road of esteem soon enough and you get some explosions. This is why I fall in the probably exploded. Camp though without conducting a gruesome tests myself. I wanted wanted to note that smart people can disagree on this theory back in nineteen eighty four. The focus seemed to be on how the slurry might react to a human body. But I wanted to know how David's body might have reacted to the slurry. If he'd gone in feet I would. He bled vomited passed out been been able to Shimmy into that opening. Minson said that whatever part of David's body went in I likely would have been cauterize. Meaning the searing heat heat the slurry would seal the wound and prevent bleeding meanwhile the moisture in the tissue would have been evaporating incredibly quickly. It would have been extremely extremely painful so painful that David might have passed out straight away and that would have been a blessing. Because had David been conscious. He would have been in unbelievable pain. I can't imagine some being able to tolerate that level of pain getting himself in slowly so so a WHO long story short. I guess I can say is is I'd be really surprised if someone lowered themselves into this willingly with the level of pain mm-hmm and In all the other associated aspects of of the mental side of it that would be so difficult. If David couldn't Shimmy how would he have managed H to fit himself so perfectly into that small hole. If your brain hurts hurts from all the hypotheticals I completely understand. I've been mulling this for months. The truth is without throwing a body into molten salt. We can't really know what would happen to one yet. I'll the RUCCI. The investigator is one hundred percent. Sure to this day that David killed himself asked asked him why he was so certain. You couldn't get close enough to it when a furnace was on when it was in a dormant state but you know at night when we use it you couldn't get within ten feet of it it. It'd be so hot it would just burn to death so nobody could have killed him. Carry them up. There were steps going up at the end of the salt furnace. What we determined that he wants to commit suicide? He had to get back. Run up those steps in either jump or dive in that small opening. That's the same reason. David's family is sure he wouldn't have killed himself in this horribly unpleasant way and here. It's being used as proof by the detective. It's the only way he could have died. And the only way that Alder Rucci believes it's possible is if David dove or cannon bald in the two ways that our our front yard experiment convinced us couldn't have happened. Do you look at the possibility of homicide at all. We had no reason to. Yo you think that but there was no indication of evidence to show of any homicide. He was despondent. We knew that he was having psychological problems. Can I push back a little sure. Because his last psychological episode had been years earlier his family said he was fine he still had to end up in that furnace us and nobody could put them in there. That's the thing nobody could put him in there other than him putting himself in there if he had been Say say there was a fight. He's punched somebody else could have carried them up. That right couldn't carry them up there too hot. Nobody could get that close to put him in there. That's the thing that was the main thing that we were questioning. How could anybody put him in there? They don't have heat resistant suits at for to get close. Listen to that. There's just nobody could have carried me. That space was so close they put him in there and had to splash. Because what happens just like if you have a grease in a skillet with Greece on it you throw some water on it. It pops in his splatters all over. That's what happens because the workers used to take watermelons and you know pieces of a watermelon. Throw a minute bomb would explode. That would up. Human Body is going to do the same so if somebody was that close to do that they would have been burnt if they could have gotten that close and they couldn't who was just too hot. I told him it didn't seem a logical place to kill oneself. He countered but I've seen a lot of people kill themselves a lot. I've investigated a lot of suicides and people doing very logical ways even people that know better doctors. You know people like that. Kill themselves in very strange ways. I don't mean to be graphic here but what have you seen so lady at right before Christmas. When her whole family was coming to her house? opened up her her freezer. You know she had a standalone freezer got inside and close. The door just locked herself in what Diana I'm right before everybody's coming to her house she leave a notice your thing. I tried to ask how he was so sure. This freezer death wasn't an accident but he went on to describe a few other scenes he'd worked on and we moved on do agree that lack of logic can't be used to rule out a suicide method. It's not always the logical act. It's often too impulsive for that. The New England Journal of Medicine says that anywhere between one third to four-fifths of all suicide attempts are impulsive interviews with people who survive their attempts. The Journal found that twenty four percent took less than five minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt to seventy percent took less than one hour so the sign says. It's possible. Maybe even likely that if David put himself in that furnace it wasn't a planned action it's possible in urge suddenly hit him and he did something. Rash I concede that Florida vacation plans a new lunchbox And a full fridge of food might not be solid evidence. He couldn't have made a spur of the moment decision. But when I look at the tiny opening of my homemade salt that I can't can't imagine anyone over age ten thinking they could fit into that whole I asked the physiologist. Okay so when you're when you're talking talking to people what's the percentage of people who go yeah suicide versus no. I'd say almost to to a person. Everyone said not suicide really expecting that. That's a I think a lot of thought it was either. The Persons Killed Elden put in there. B B so almost impossible to get a conscious human into that that Yellow surprised by that too. So I was thinking you know initially that there could be some evidence for suicide. But boy. If you're going to you know if you wanted to it's really have your body disappear completely That would probably a way to go at it but to actually think about the pain saying that the person would go through consciously to drop themselves in it and the cannonball diving in kind of solution. I can't see how you can have that good enough aim and hope to get it right. The bottom line for me is that while it might have been physically possible. David put himself in that. Vat the likelihood seem mm slim. I'm generally an outcomes razor kind of Gal. The simplest solution is almost always the right. One is suicide in this case possible muscle. I'd never say no but likely likely enough to completely bypass any chance of murder. That's the tough sell David's family never believed he killed himself but they were as certain as they could be that he was dead nearly two years after the disappearance his family only tried to get him declared legally dead. It was the only way that his kids could be awarded his pension and life insurance or even consider suing his bosses for wrongful death breath. Usually someone has to be missing for five years before they're declared dead but with bones in the furnace. They thought there was no point in waiting it out out. They were sure David wasn't coming back. A judge sided with the family and David was declared dead twenty two months after he disappeared then the family decided they wanted to sue for workers compensation if he died a work related death. His kids could stay claim on death. Benefits this is where the the suicide theory really picks up steam and for pretty cynical reasons. First let's back up on June twenty seventh nineteen eighty-four for less than ten days after David disappeared a company. Safety engineer named W M Edwards submitted an informal review of David's disappearance silence from the NFL. Oh plant it's typed single spaced in three pages long in it. The engineer seems to cast at least a shadow of doubt on David having died inside the VAT at all it reads quote. Currently there is evidence but no proof except for the radio and keys found in the bath. That would time Mr Mr Boxes disappearance to the findings in the furnace and quote Edwards. points out that while there was like material found. They couldn't confirm it was bone at. Aw much less human bone the report points out too that the furnace was pretty far off the ground David would have had to climb on top in during the heat and then work to enter the tank. Through the small opening Edwards says bluntly quote there appears to be no reasonable symbol. Way that Mr box could have accidentally gotten into the salt bath on the contrary it would have required a very determined mental and physical effort on his part to accomplish this act and quote so the report in short says. Maybe David wasn't in the VAT and if he was he didn't just just slip he would have had to have been incredibly determined to put himself in there now back to the lawsuit. Casey says her family wanted to sue. Sued the company for wrongful death but the lawyers they hired. Talk them out of that. The lawyers that we had wanted to Go after Workman's COMP. They thought that that was the best route because he died in the course of work. Well you know. That's where they're fighting hell. No he committed suicide and we're not pay and nothing so that's where the suicide thing comes in because workman's gone auto's like with you after all suicide at work is in considered a work related death. Casey's interpretation seems fair internal memos are far less certain. David killed himself but when an aloe officials took the stand to testify in the Workman's comp case they the answered resolutely and in Lockstep. nope the kids shouldn't get death benefits because David definitely killed himself. David's David's family. At I figured that money was the only motivator. The company was being cheap. They thought but the more they learned about the Fernald plant the the more suspicious they got. We always try felt that they should have actually gone after the company. But that's when we all all found out that it was owned by the federal government and the federal government had been keeping some pretty big secrets about the plant secrets that David Kids kids think he might have threatened to expose next time on accused atomic bomb flash burn you worse than a terrible somber especially not covered the EPA letter came back pretty quick Sad find another source of drinking. It seems so mundane yet. It seems so evil all the same talk to bench the season go to www dot wondering dot com slash plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT dot com slash P L U S to support the creators of accused directly go to our patriots page where donors get bonus content damned early episodes. That's at Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA Today network narrated by amber hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered By filled ideon and edited buying Wilson Intern Mark Rosenberg provided additional research. Music was composed by Andrew. Higley to look at case documents photos videos and more visit accused podcasts. Dot Com as noted. Somebody comes from a living history project and the Fernald community alliance transcript to those interviews are available at all community alliance Dot Org

Harry David Casey apple David Psychiatrist Charlie Schaus Harry David Stat David starter David Food L. D. Rucci Peter Peter Patriotair Dot David Kids Fernald Mark Rosenberg Tony amber hunt Brenner T. H. R. E. D. U.
NPR News: 01-30-2020 10PM ET

NPR News Now

04:39 min | 10 months ago

NPR News: 01-30-2020 10PM ET

"Live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Jack Speer. The Senate continues a second day of questioning the house managers and in President Trump's attorneys. NPR's Brian Naylor reports. It's the final day before the Senate is expected to vote on whether to call additional witnesses. Democrats say the Senate it needs to hear from additional witnesses especially former national security adviser John Bolton who in a book manuscript reportedly says President Trump told him he. He was withholding aid from Ukraine in order to get that country to investigate Joe Biden and his son House Democratic Manager. Adam Schiff they have gone to extraordinary lengths to put a muzzle on John Bolton to avoid calling him as a witness to avoid letting the American people hear what he has to say. Another has manager New York Democrat Jerry. Nadler left opened the door that the house May Subpoena Bolton. If the Senate doesn't the Senate will vote on witnesses tomorrow Brian Naylor. NPR News Washington health officials. Now say say. They've confirmed the first person to person transmission of the corona virus in the US. They say the latest patient is the husband of Chicago woman who fell ill. After returning turning from a trip to China new case announced. Today's the six identified so far in the US the other five role people who became sick after returning from China meanwhile the total number of cases is worldwide is now nearly ninety seven hundred. At least two hundred thirteen people have died as a result of the newly identified virus. All those deaths occurring in China. You a State Department apartment today issued an advisory for US citizens not to travel to China and those were. They're considered leaving the already high firearm death rate in the US remain steady in two thousand eighteen. That's according to the latest numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Boise State. Public radio's heath drew's more. CDC's new report on US mortality. Found that nearly forty thousand people died by firearm. In two thousand eighteen the number was almost identical to twenty seventeen. which set a record for the most firearm deaths? Dr Mark Rosenberg is the former director director of the CDC Injury Center and says the numbers show. The government must invest more in gun violence research. It's shocking because we lose forty thousand people all year to gun deaths and almost all of these gun deaths are preventable. The numbers include suicides homicides and accidents. Suicide is the leading NCAA gun death in America and the suicide rate went up slightly between twenty seventeen in two thousand eighteen for NPR news. I'm eateries and a federal appeals court is refusing to reconsider later. It's ruling against a key. Part of President Obama's signature healthcare law divided three judge panel in December ruling the law's requirement that people buy insurance was rendered unconstitutional constitutional when Congress at the tax on. Those who don't buy insurance zero over Fifty Circuit Court of Appeals says despite one appellate judge asking for rehearing the full court in eight to six vote shut that down stocks closed higher today on Wall Street. The Dow is up one hundred and twenty four points you're listening to NPR movie producer. Harvey Weinstein today defended his use of undercover investigators telling reporters outside his New York City rape trial that he did it quote for days. Liked this prosecutors say the black cube firm hard by Weinstein's lawyers use fake identities to meet with journalists and tracked accusers to try to stop publication of stories about him. Weinstein is charged with sexually assaulting one woman and raping another. He's insisted any sexual encounters were consensual veteran TV executive and producer Fred Silverman government has died. Is Death first reported by the Hollywood reporter throughout his career. Silverman programmed hit shows at all three networks including all in the family mashing roots and Beers Elizabeth Blair has this appreciation. Fred Silverman helped shape entertainment television in the nineteen seventies and eighties at CVS. Got Rid of shows like the beverly hillbillies to make way for fair like the Mary. Tyler Moore Show and all in the family away Glenn Miller comedies dramas the David Letterman show. Silverman launched a string of hits over the course of his career he also had some flops and had trouble turning. NBC around when he joined the network in nineteen seventy eight known known to be blunt competitive and a great salesman Time magazine once called him. TV's master showman Elizabeth Blair NPR news. Silverman was is eighty two the Baltimore based company that makes old bay seasoning says. It's new chesapeake flavor. Hot Sauce made a sizzling debut. This week so citizen. Apparently the company jokingly says it may have broken. The Internet Company says its website temporarily crashed after eager buyers flooded the site. I'm Jack Speer N._P._R.. News in Washington.

US Fred Silverman Senate NPR President Trump NPR Jack Speer Harvey Weinstein Brian Naylor Washington China Elizabeth Blair John Bolton Adam Schiff New York President CDC Fifty Circuit Court of Appeals Chicago
Congress Funds Gun Violence Research for the First Time in Over 20 Years 2020-02-13

The Takeaway

39:47 min | 10 months ago

Congress Funds Gun Violence Research for the First Time in Over 20 Years 2020-02-13

"For decades there has been no federal support for gun violence research. I was told by senior researchers in no uncertain terms to not pursue a career in firearm injury prevention. But that's all starting to change. I'm a ruined vinegar. Paul and this is the takeaway for February thirteenth also. On the show journalist Carlos Maza takes on misinformation on YouTube. It's not some like very heroic thing I'm just Deeply concerned about the future of political discourse and democracy plus. It's Valentine's Day. Even though big name card companies are going bankrupt. You're still sending cards and according to this caller even making them yourselves. I make all my own court. Verdict growing personal notes and decorate the envelope as well youngbleaux especially fun. I incorporate the name and address and to elaborate pictures. Eight seven seven eight. My take is our number all that more. Let's get to it tomorrow. Marks two years since a gunman shot and killed seventeen people at Marjory stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland Florida and a little over six minutes. Seventeen of our friends were taken from us. Fifteen were injured and everyone absolutely everyone in the Douglas Community was forever altered everyone. Who was there understands? Everyone who has been touched by the cold grip of gun. Violence understands the PARKLAND shooting led to a wave of activism by young people around the country demanding that lawmakers next substantive gun control legislation. Going to take this to every election to every state and every city. We're going to make sure the best people get in our elections to run not as politicians but Americans because this this is not cutting and while the sweeping overhauls that activists push for are still far from a reality. There has been one significant development for the federal government in December. Congress approved twenty five million dollars for gun violence research to be split equally between the CDC and the National Institutes of health. It was the first time in over twenty years that federal funding had been approved for this type of research. That's because back in nineteen ninety six at dickey's that was passed prohibiting the CDC from using Federal Funds for research that quote advocated for gun control out of fear of losing more funding the CDC essentially stopped doing research into gun violence. The National Institute of Health Soon followed despite limited research the CDC estimates that forty thousand people each year are killed from firearm related debts according to a recent study from the University of Michigan School of Medicine. Firearm injuries were the second leading cause of death for US children and adolescence from two thousand eight to two thousand seventeen and yet again. Barely any research into gun. Violence has been conducted since the dickey amendment was passed now. Congress has finally giving the CDC and the funding to make necessary research possible again. And that's where we start today on the takeaway joining us now to talk about the future of gun. Violence Research is Dr Megan Raney an emergency physician at Brown University and Chief Research Officer for a firm research and Mark Rosenberg. Who was the first director of the National Center for Injury Prevention and control at the CDC? Thank you both for joining me. Thank you for having US mark. Can you tell me about the gun? Violence research you conducted at the CDC before the dickey was passed in one thousand nine hundred six sure and let me tell you why we thought research was important. And it's that we are basically in a standoff where people think that either you can prevent gun violence or you can protect gun rights. This was a strategy proposed by the NRA. They said these two are at odds but there are actually ways that you can both reduce gun violence and protect gun rights. How do you find them? You look for those ways you look through research because you need research to see what ideas will work and the research basically answers four simple questions. The first question is what's the problem who gets killed. Who GETS SHOT? Where y when does it happen? Under what circumstances in our these increasing or decreasing? But that's what's the problem. The second question is what are the causes? What's the role of illness? What's the role of drugs or alcohol? The third question is what works to prevent it and you need to find things that were both to prevent gun violence and to protect gun rights but through research you can find what works and what a cheese. Both of those goals in the fourth question is how do you do it? How'd you take the things you find through research and translate them into policy? Yeah and and one of your studies. A landmark study really showed having gun in the home was more dangerous than not having one Can you talk to me? How that studied helped stop funding for the CDC the NRA had been saying instill says that if you care about your family and you want to keep your family safe. Go have a gun in your home so we looked at the question. Does having a gun in your home. Really make you safer in what we found showed. That not only does having a gun in your home. Not Make Safer. But it increases the risks tremendously. Does someone in your home will be murdered with a gun or that. Someone in your home will commit suicide with a gun. The NRA didn't like these findings because they thought it would be bad for business so the NRA said about a campaign to stop the research and they got Jay dickey congressman from Rural Arkansas. To head up their attack against US and they tried to put. Cdc's injury centre out of business. Into Stop the research that Bieler joining and Dr Anne. What is in like for you as a researcher wanting to study gun violence in the aftermath of the dickey amendment. So I started my career soon after the dickey amendment and I was told by senior researchers in no uncertain terms to not pursue a career in firearm injury prevention and that it was pointless thing to study because there would never be funding for it. Many of US listened for awhile and largely because of the dickey amendment many of the folks that had been doing research in the field. Stop doing it so there were only a few intrepid folks across the country who continued to do this work as a result. It was really tough for me to find mentors. I'm in just like in business in research you need people to help can show you the ropes and teach you how to be a better researcher But over time with persistence I found some people including folks at the University of Michigan who you quoted and it. Uc Davis and for many of us kind of Mid-2000s and then leading into Sandy Hook. We started to say it's it's not okay to be silent. And we won't let the dickey amendment silence us because in reality it didn't ever ban research. It just created fear in dodger any think the activism that followed the Parkland shooting helped. Renew the push for this research. I think it was the activism following the Parkland. Shooting it really. Those started after Sandy Hook. It was after the tragedies in Aurora in Sandy Hook that we started to see. Many of us are writing up. Ed's both in medical journals and in popular press. I'm talking about the importance of research and the importance of that public. Health Approach Dr Rosenberg outlined that four step approach and talking about the ways in which this can be done in conjunction whether even with leadership from The gun owning community in fact. That's why we founded a firm research was to make sure that we have voices From all groups and all sides are represented in the research and mark. Do you see that. All these tragedies. He's mass shootings that there are people who are in support of gun. Rights are becoming more open to this kind of research I think keep people legislators some Republicans and people from red states are starting to understand the value of research and Jay dickey himself. Though he started out we started out is arch enemies people who hated each other for what we were doing. Jay dickey came around to see that we needed to restart the research and in fact he came out and said we need to get it started and one of the place. Jay dickey wanted to make was that if Jay and I started out as mortal enemies and we could come not only to agree on the importance of science in the importance of not only to agree but actually to become friends and people who trusted about each other and cared about each other. If we could do it then anyone could to it and so. I think this last year when Congress approved in appropriations to restart research and I can't overemphasize how important that is. That's a huge step. A really important step to solving the problem that was done with Republican and Democratic support in the House and the dickey amendment as Meagan said and. She really is courageous. And I need to emphasize how brave she was to go into this field but last year when the House approved this. They did it with by lateral support. They started by saying in the past that they needed to get rid of the dickey amendment because it was seen as a threat and an obstacle. But what happened? Last year is Jay. Dicky's former wife helped write in testimony that said now the dickey amendment can actually be a bridge to getting the support of people all over the spectrum for research because what the dickey amendment does is. It says. You can't use this money that Congress appropriate for research. You can't use it to lobby for gun control. You can do the research. But you can't use it to lobby for gun control. So this gave cover to some Republicans on the Appropriations subcommittee to vote for this and this is something that will need to be expanded. The research will need to be done. Well it will need to be scientifically objective and it will need to find things that do both reduced gun violence and protect gun. Rights dot rainy. Is it clear how the CDC and NIH could use this new funding and the kind of benefits we might see from this research? Yes absolutely The CDC has already moved quickly to release a funding announcement to young scholars in the field and has another one projected to be released within a month. To Fund large grants on Firearm Injury Prevention. And I imagine that. Nih will soon follow suit. I think that a lot of what we're going to see early on is a focus on firearms suicide prevention. I two thirds of gun deaths in this country are suicides In a focus on identifying risk factors and how to mitigate them this is going to be done in conjunction with the healthcare community but also in conjunction with trusted messengers in communities across the country. You know this field has had so little research done for the past twenty three years that it's almost wide open. It would be like if we've done no research on heart attacks since nineteen ninety six. There's so much that we need to know and I'll mention here that although the twenty five million is amazing and it's a great step in the right direction. What we really need is over a billion dollars a year in order for firearm injury prevention to be funded the same way as other diseases that kill the same number of people each year so we have a long way to go and lots of questions to answer dot arenas is changing the morale of people in your field. It is you know already in the last year or two. We've seen a dramatic growth in the number of people who are dedicating time and resources really for free To researching this really important area and I think we're GONNA see an explosion. of soaks. Brilliant minds for to taking this on and finding solutions that work for every community across America. I'm just thrilled and excited for what comes next dot rainy. Are you worried that this funding could be cut under this administration? Absolutely that is always a concern. Particularly in this area of research The president's proposed budget for the coming year That was released just a couple of days ago. I'm does not include a a line item for firearm. Injury Prevention funding I think it's on all of us to continue to be vocal about the importance of this work and about the need for it and about the fact that it really is a bipartisan effort. this is not about gun control versus gun rights this is about creating prevention strategies that work for our communities the same way that we have reduced the number of car crash deaths without taking automobiles off the road. We can effectively reduce gun deaths in this country. Well also very much respecting Americans right to own firearms daughter. Megan Raney is an emergency physician at Brown University and Chief Research Officer for a firm research and Mark Rosenberg is a former director of the National Center for Injury Prevention and control at the CDC. Thank you both so much. Thank you around as federal and state legislation around gun safety continues to stall. Some parents are taking matters into their own hands by going through their local school boards to get parents to commit to locking up their guns. According to the violence projects mass shooter database. More than ninety percent of school shooters are students at the schools in which they opened fire. Eighty percent of school shooters access firearms through their family. Last June the Los Angeles School Board unanimously supported a resolution that asks parents to safely store guns Donald Finkelstein whose daughter was shot and wounded in a school shooting. Spearhead of this movement is very hard to pass legislation especially around guns and gun violence so to me. It's all about prevention and it always has been naps. That's the best impact I could make. And we could make as a community school districts around the country have followed suit with similar efforts but many have been largely overlooked in the national debate. About gun control. Jillian Peterson is a professor of criminal justice at Hamline University in Saint Paul Minnesota and. She joins me to talk about this. Hi Gillian thanks so much for having me. Can you describe these new preventative measures? That parents are taking exactly how they work. I think parents are saying you know. We're tired of waiting for Congress to do something we know that perpetrators are students of the school. We know their kids in crisis and we know that they're getting their guns from family members so if we want to prevent this from happening one thing we can do is make it harder to get those guns from family members dots a matter of almost doing kind of a public health campaign to explain to parents the importance of safe storage. Explain how to do it. Resources to get it done and then in some cases the consequences of not doing it and how widespread these efforts you know. I've just really started hearing about this. I think it's a relatively new approach and part of that is I think we're just now getting this data out that says perpetrators of school shootings are using their families weapons so I think this is a relatively new effort. And it's kind of popping up in these little communities that are really pushing for it on the local level. I'm curious what are your own questions as you look at this sort of grassroots effort do think that it would be more than just symbolic in actually be able to change the way in which families and parents store their guns. You know I hope that it would. We don't have a ton of data yet to know how well this works. It depends on who you ask but around fifty percent or a third of gun. Owners are not storing their gun safely and part of that could just be a lack of education. Part of that could be a lack of resources and so if we can provide that as a community say no one saying don't have guns. Were just saying store them safely to protect kids. That might really have an impact. It is amazing when you look at the different places around the country where this is a being passed or at least as being debated Phoenix Union. High School district just enacted a policy similar to what there is in Los Angeles. Saint Louis Public Schools is GonNa vote on a similar proposal On Tuesday five school districts in southern California Denver Public Schools It sounds like there is something really that is going on across the country that sort of to the heart of how people are taking upon themselves. Yeah and I think this is something that we can do. It's it's something easy it's actionable. It's local it doesn't take any act of Congress and it would be really effective and I think we're seeing kind of a shift in how we think about school safety. What we've been doing and what we can be doing and thinking let's be really more preventative and let's take it into our own hands. And this is a pretty nonpartisan issue. Most people agree on it. So it feels very doable. Why is this nonpartisan Is something that you think does actually get buy in from both sides. I do think it gets buy in from both sides. You know as soon as you mentioned the Word Gun. People tend to dig in their heels but talking about safe storage. I think is something that most people agree with when we look at kind of public surveys vast majority of people gun owners included agree. That safe storage support in the past. A large focus has been on lobbying Congress for change but that hasn't been especially successful Why do you think these efforts aren't meeting as much resistance? I think because they're so local I think because it's parents of a school and it's a community coming together and saying what can we do to make sure this doesn't happen here and here's something we can do? We can educate we can provide resources. Says we can kind of take care of the people in our community and say what can we actually do right here so it feels sort of more connected than what's happening in Washington? There's been a previous debate about You know preventing More these tragedies by I guess taking aggressive measures Arming people in the light. Has that been met with a lot of support or is that sort of dissipating for the last say Twenty Years Post Columbine. We've been doing this approach. That's really aggressive. And it's about assuming that this is going to happen and there's nothing we can do about it. How do we minimize casualties? So it's active shooter drills and it's facial recognition software and. It's arming teachers those policies. I think we can say have not worked School shootings are getting more frequent. They're getting deadlier and so I think there is this paradigm shift happening now that we have or data to say okay. These are kids in our community. They are in crisis they're suicidal. They're getting guns from family members. How could we use that data to actually prevent this happening rather than training people how to run hide and fight and perpetrators when it does Finkelstein who we heard from at the beginning of the segment says like you that this is a nonpartisan prevention strategy? That being said has there been any pushback to what these parents were trying to do you. Not I've heard I'm sure that there are always people that would read that letter and say that they want their guns loaded and near them. I haven't heard of any kind of organized pushback or even pushback and the local level earlier this week. The two largest teacher's union said they want schools to revise or get rid of active shooter drills. Why is that you know? More and more research is coming out to show that these drills can caused trauma to students that they increase fear and that they increase anxiety and as that research builds at the same time. We have no research to show that. These are effective at reducing casualties. And I think that fact that we talked about that over ninety percent of perpetrators are students of the school. Gives you pause when you think about okay the perpetrators themselves than would be running through all of these drills and would know this owl's exact response which can actually be used to increase casualties instead of decrease them so. I think it's a it doesn't make sense from a security standpoint and be we know that these drills are traumatizing our kids. Julian Peterson is a professor of criminal justice at Hamline University. Jillian thanks for joining us. Thanks fearless Carlos. Maza has had a complicated relationship with youtube last year I went through a huge spat with youtube very publicly and drew the ire of a bunch of really prominent right wing youtubers and that triggered of death threats against me and my family but also I guess my employer. He's employer at the time. Was Vox where he was a video. Producer and media critic for the series strike through Carlos who politically identifies as a socialist was targeted for a long time by conservative. Youtuber named Steven crowder crowder made videos mocking Mazda for being gay and Cuban-american last year Carlos called out youtube for it's handling of hate speech opening a national conversation about the platforms policies now Carla's starting new and surprising chapter of his story. He recently left Fox and decided to run straight into the belly of the beast. He'll be bringing media criticism to youtube as a full-time content creator there and he says he'll work from the inside to combat the misinformation and hate that runs rampant in corners of the youtube world. It's not some like very heroic thing I'm just Deeply concerned about the future of political discourse in a democracy and I think up until this point the growth of the far for in dry on youtube has been a problem. That's up taken seriously enough both by independent progressive actors and by news media more. Broadly I sat down with Carlos to talk about what he hopes to accomplish with the move and I asked him to start by painting a picture of the kind of person and message. He's trying to counter with his youtube presence. There is this genre of right wing Youtuber that is defined largely like hostility towards what they see as political correctness. Uh silly towards multi-culturalism Australia towards left this kind of identity politics and then there's a fierce vision of immigrants. There's a fear suspicion of feminism. The types of things you'd expect in a corporate. Hr meeting there's lots of facility towards that and then in terms of like style unite them is like Come looking authoritarian speech modes like no sense of vulnerability or weakness known certainty in their speech condescension or hostility towards other ideas. Anna kind of repetitive speech. There's like a a kind of speed and brutality with which they speak this getting his mental engender this idea of like a tough guy or a strong man. It's it's like a very persuasive kind of avalanche of certainty that marks not just right wing speakers in all kinds of speakers on youtube the law. That's kind of like an authoritarian platform because it rewards those who speak with confidence directly to an audience with conversation and so kind of lends itself to demagogued actually the algorithm specifically rewards those attributes the algorithm. It is it is the nature of the platform that it was designed to be a place that privilege is authenticity quote unquote this idea. That what you're getting on Youtube. Is this authentic direct speaker to audience action. Which is unlike a CNN? Which kind of recognizing media that is filtered through a whole bunch of lenses and this side versus right? Now I'm a journalist. I'm separate from the conversation. Here's a reporter. Who's talking to someone else on the field you to your you. The individual being spoken to which is a naturally kind of like an authoritarian relationship. I am telling you what to think. I'm telling you what's going on. I am showing you the evidence. You do not talk back to me. There's no one else here. I'm not answering to anybody else. That lends itself very well to demagogues both on the left and the right. So you're stepping into youtube. You just launch sorta like this curtain raiser kind of video and introduction. Who Do you imagine your audience will be the biggest difference? They're much younger than people would be on cable news or who might be subscribing to the New York Times so younger audience politically curious but not watching. Tv So not obsessed with the tick tock of what's happening in the news cycle and the ways Sort of an avid foxing Viewer might be interested in. I would think they are. They are politically progressive. Though in the same way that I think a lot of teenagers are in that. They have a kind of empathy for others and a curiosity about the rules and anxiety about the climate. Maybe but are not they're not reading. Chomsky. They're not like Marxists or not Baked into theory which I think sort of weirdly enough is very similar to the audience. That the alright is aiming for on Youtube people who are politically curious about that interested in reading which political theory or relatively young and are open to persuasion the outrageous we are good at capturing that group especially younger men and younger white men and there is still despite people's best efforts sort of a gap on the left there so there are a lot of leftist literary critics but not a lot of like explicit leftist political content creators on Youtube. So what do you think is sort of responsible for that void? I think the rise of the Youtube rights is a byproduct of the failure of the rights for the most part to penetrate into mainstream media. And so like the blaze and the daily wire and Breitbart have invested a good amount of resources in developing youtube shows because they recognize that. It's got a kind of a low barrier entry and this incredibly powerful technology to reach bunch of new converts but for the most part if you are a progressive journalist or commentator you have all these places they can catch you. Career is whether it's left US mainstream publications or you can just go work as a commentator. So you're kind of silo to the world of like corporates sort of mainstream milquetoasts a largely neutered commentary You don't really have a reason to flourish on Youtube. The right has been forced to go there. So Steven crowder the guy the guy that harass me was originally a Fox News contributor and then got fired from Fox News or not being very good at his job and then got hired by the blaze media which Glenn Beck who also fired from Fox News media enterprise and then he got his youtube show exist on Youtube. Where Youtube is essentially just linking them up with corporate sponsors of their own and then also getting the money through things like patriotic or or side lucrative. People like Steven crowder medically lucrative. They are they are making a lot more money than I imagined. I will be making a very long time. So you've got this obvious real problem with mainstream media. What can the mainstream learn from? What's happening on Youtube either? In left or on the right I have like an optimistic and pessimistic version of this answer. My pessimistic version that mainstream media is doomed to fail this platform. Because the whole idea of mainstream media is that it is defined largely by corporate sponsorships for the most part if you think about cable news or any of the biggest alshon legacy media's they rely on ads so they're content is almost always going to be less authentic less real feeling. What's accessible to an audience? Then sort of the more India ish craters on the right are and there. Is this deeply ingrained idea in traditional media outlets and the mainstream media every school in this country that to be a good journalist means being serious means being neutral. I could give you like the whole. Chomsky Media Literacy one week of identity is dumb And like mixture bad journalism but in in this context it also makes youtube because when you are a wolf blitzer type and you show no motion about reporting on and have no worldview and are ideologically kind of detached from whatever you're covering it breeds distrust breeds feelings of detachment people. Feel like they don't understand you don't know you don't feel compelled to care about what you care about. And so sort of the the cost of entry of doing well on you to is. You have to let go of this idea that you're going to be this like Tabula Rasa blank slates objective journalists and speak like a human in my intro video. A really went out of my way to say you know I am a leftist and like you can expect this from me and also I want you to know that about me because if this isn't too you're not going to be persuaded but if you're curious about it you might be persuaded but like here's my goal. I want you to be a socialist to our mark. Su I'm trying my best. Entertain University of that idea and that engenders trust on the part of the Audience Carlos Maza now in independent video producer on youtube thing so much for joining me Carlos. Thanks for having me. We did reach out to youtube for comment as of this airing. They've not responded to that request. This is a reinventing. Go Paul in for Tanzania Vega and you're listening to the takeaway after Christmas. Valentine's Day is the second most popular holiday for sending cars an estimated one hundred forty five million cards will be exchanged tomorrow and yet several big card companies and retailers like papyrus American greetings and Carlton Cards. All recently declared bankruptcy in their place though. A group of smaller indie designers and artists have sprung up just as millennials and generation Z. Are Looking for ways to connect and express themselves out side of social media for a look at our relationship with greeting cards and handwritten sentiments today. I'm joined by Carrie. Gifford Co founder and creative director of the company Red Cap cards and I met an activist in storyteller. Who has for years had a line of cards on? She calls Muslim Valentine's Day cards. Both of you welcome to the takeaway so You and I go way back. And we've seen you launched a series to great acclaim. Where'd you come up with this idea of Muslim? Valentine's Day cards. We so I was a part of a book called Love and shall the secret love lives of American Muslim women. And we'd go on book tour and it get asked all these really absurd questions about. Do Muslim women love? Are We capable of love and I just thought it so ridiculous? I started using the Hashtag Muslim. Vide and coming up with like really weird political types of cards sayings After a while my friends were like you should just turn these things into actual cards in. Now it's turned into this eight year long project which is pretty wild and you're the artists as well as a writer. I am an artist as well as the writer. Yeah they're they're very lovingly done I guess that's part of the the. The appeal of them is that they're actually attractive. Cards just cheeky. Yeah Yeah I mean like we we gotta make them make them a little cute too. You know we can't have long so let's hear some of the quotes couple that stood out to me. Were from your cards. Are Call Your representative. Then call me and touchingly. I'd Never Muslim ban you from my heart. What are some of your own favorites? I have a one inspired from the the wall. That was that is getting built. There's no border wall that could keep us apart and then another one with a little chain around it is. I never deport you. And then there's so fly list a carey if we didn't have do you think tasr could have ever gotten her card. Sold at a big box store published through hallmark. And no no. I think I went through I before I started red cap with my husband I was when we started. I was the original illustrator and then over time I actually did illustrations for some of these other companies and they put you through at gigantic testing process. And if your images aren't gonNA speak to this test audience that they put it out with than the chances are they're not gonNA make your car. They're not GonNa make your card so they're just so big and bureaucratic places. Yes so I mean you know. It's just like When you do something like that versus with a smaller companies like us. We're not going to test our products. We're going to be making products from our heart. Things that make sense to us things that we believe in thinks things that we see that are missing in the market. That's not their goal. Their goal is to you know sell as many cards as possible. Do you think that this I guess conservatism in terms of their approach is contributing to the decline of these big car companies? I think so. I think we have a thoughtful intelligent consumers out there who are looking for something that they can connect with and nowadays. I think people are feeling the need to connect in a way. That's more personal to them and we have a lot of younger buyers. The card market used to be a lot of the baby boomer type of people out there buying and giving cards and now you know we have a new generation of people who want something that is tangible way to connect and they're not probably seeing themselves in those markets Tanzilia. What kind of reaction did you get when you started selling these cars? I mean you I guess you had some friends who really eating it up right. Yeah I have a lot of friends that were really into the cards but I got a lot of pushback too. I got a lot of pushback from very conservative non-muslim communities that were saying that I was spreading Jihad through my cards which is just absolutely ridiculous and then also from the conservative Muslim community. They're saying that I'm putting out a bad portrayal of what it means to be Muslim. So carry have you seen like a real evolution in terms of the sentiments themselves over over the years or is it pretty much largely sorta stuck in a in a very traditional mode of expression. I think I have. I think you know you have your traditional birthday. Thank you all your holiday categories of greeting cards. That people give Cards for but I think what we're seeing now is a lot of people wanting to give cards that are more about uplifting empowering messages and more personal notes things that have to do with More about empathy and encouragement and even mental health or cards. That are just more diverse and their art work and picture. I just think these are cards. At traditionally you wouldn't found a market and now we're seeing a lot of people who are far more connected to their own lives and their own emotions and how they're feeling and I think you know they're in the feeling of support with one another so you're seeing a lot of people giving cards for these reasons and I know just with our artists. We have a lot of artists who wanna make cards like that and even as a company. We're always kind of looking for that message as well something. That's making us feel good about who we are as individuals and so do you think the bigger companies were just sort of disconnected from these changes to respond to them. You know it's hard to say I you know I don't I don't know exactly what their thought processes but I'm pretty sure it has to do with. They know that a birthday card is about eighty to ninety percent of their business. And so they're going to focus on making those and they're going to focus on a thank you card and they're going to focus on these you know on these very you know general occasions. But they're not going to dive deep into like you know more deeper emotional. Palette of who we are all as as humanity like you know. They don't want to put their money into you know mental health when they know they can sell eighty percent of their cards or birthday. It's just kind of I think whether at carry Gifford Co founder and creative director of the company Red Cap cars and Ten Zealand Ned and activists and storyteller who sells her Muslim Valentine's Day cards on Oetzi. Thanks to you both for joining me. Ain't thank you. We asked if you still send or receive handwritten letters and greeting cards and we heard from so many of our listeners. On this high. It's Ben from Venice. My Mom Sends Me Cards Austin and in them are little notes. One of the note said this is Your Life. Create it or someone else. Will I put these notes up around my apartment and I always look at them? It's really nice to get hand-written from one my name is Erica. And I'm calling from Santa Cruz and yes I do still write letters and sometimes my grandkids due to my most recent one is from one of my granddaughters and it says I love you and I love your cookies love maxine. It's the best kind of letter to get email. Just doesn't do it. This is Kelly from veto Florida. I make all my own carts. I'm an artist and drawings like personal notes and decorate the envelopes as well. The envelopes are especially fun. I incorporate the name and aggression to elaborate pictures sending hand written letters the lost art and I take great clauses making an sending them the response overwhelmingly positive this is Nicky Mohammed Faouzi from Arlington Texas. I still receive letters and cards from friends and family. My favorite is a message from my friend. Bonnie who said I love that our friendship is still so strong that even having not corresponded with each other for several years. We're able to pick up right where we left off the last conversation we had was yesterday. I this is green calling from Ridgewood New Jersey. In the last two weeks my family had to say goodbye to a beloved pets and it was completely unexpected and especially hard on me because I had to make a lot of the hard decisions to let him go just today We received a lovely handwritten note from the veterinarians who took care of in his last days. Along with a packet of seeds to plan to flowers and hit memory. Part of the note reads as follows. He was a very special soul and it was easy to see how much he was loved. Please find solid. Been All of your wonderful memories of him. Seeing this really helped me Feel better about some of the hard decisions that I had to make An it's definitely helped me feel more at ease without having sitting around. Thanks for the call and happy early Valentine's Day but one last thing before we go a quick shout out to the folks who make this show every week are producing team is headed up by senior producer. Alexandra not includes Ethan. Obermann Jackie Martin. Jose Olivarez Andres O'Hara Meg Dalton. Jason too risky. And Lydia mcmullen layered Larry mckean and Debbie daughtry. Our our board OPS JAKE. How it is our director and sound designer. Oh and if you liked any music you heard on the show this week or you hate it. He is behind all so credit or blame him. Our digital editors are poly Irungu and dean. Sim that Katrina Barton. Is Our intern. And David Gable is our executive assistant and a man who knows how to get things and special. Thanks as always to acting EP Lee Hill. Thanks so much for listening. Any water is in tomorrow for Politics. I'M GONNA go Paul and this is the takeaway next.

YouTube Jay dickey CDC Congress director US Carlos Maza Paul NRA producer Mark Rosenberg Chief Research Officer Brown University Marjory stoneman Douglas High Dr Megan Raney National Center for Injury Pre Steven crowder crowder Hamline University Jillian Peterson Donald Finkelstein
Politics of the life scientific

Nature Podcast

24:20 min | Last month

Politics of the life scientific

"The funding for research is going down every year. This is my own zealots geneticists based in. Sao. Paulo Brazil following the safe kiss responsible for fourteen percent of the -cations in Brazil. And very recently, there is proposal deal that want to reduce the funding I'm want you think we'll be the effects is this bill did pass certainly you won't have any approval of new projects. Doing, probably the next two more years. And that many scholarship could be interrupted. We have young scientists that are brilliant and they are going away. Because they are trying to have better conditions to research. I'm nick. How welcome to stick to the science this is the second in a free part series nature is making about science politics. Last time we look to the past exploring the intertwined history of science and politics. But in this episode with focusing on Today If you are scientists working right now what role does politics play in your work research on your life after all scientists are human, they're equally part of society and politics. This issue Policy Rafi who you might remember from the last episode she's a researcher of in policy politics shape science in a whole bunch of ways right that really affects everything in the lab and we don't necessarily think about it. So for example, governments have funding priorities and so whether it's the government doing the funding or research councils, charities, universities, companies, there's some sort of interests and so influence and power dynamic, and so you're going to have politics to put it bluntly money makes. Se. Isn't potent. In funding is so important to the everyday life of a scientist. Now I'm going to dedicate the best part of this episode to it. The fact is that if you WANNA get on in the world science today in almost all cases you need funding. But we funding comes a lot of well politics. Let's get back to my on his outs. The Brazilian geneticist we heard from other star of this episode. Back on the thirteenth of August a bill was introduced by the Brazilian government, which is seeking to reallocate research funds from Sao Paulo state to fill the shortfall in the government's budget the coast by the covert response. According to my honor, this those stunts, the decimate Brazilian research. If we don't have the money, we have to restrict our questions. We won't be able to address the questions we want to, and certainly the quality of the research won't be the same owner is just worried about how paychecks she is worried about how this bill could impact every aspect of her and her colleagues research from the quality of that analyses down to the coal questions, they even able to ask and so if this bill is approved. It would be a big problem, a big loss for research in Paul. So that's something that are really worried about because when I was talking about these call sern that that we have now said well, but if you don't have money for some Paul, are you going to have more for federal friends? I said, well, this the other way around some Paulo's the place where could continue the research despite the big cutting infants from federal funds political decisions about funding can make or break scientist's careers. My honor is worried about the security of Brazilian science full stop, but the impact of funding isn't always that extreme. Sometimes is more a case of influence to governments. For example, they'll say we WANNA find the Human Genome Project or the brain initiative. Right. So there's that level of priority setting or you just have the structure of, for example, in the United States. The National Institutes of Health has separate institutes, and so they're gonNA fund in particular sort of way projects that each of those institutes care about on sometimes these priorities are just about the scientific academic interests of institution. Sometimes, funding those are explicitly political. His Michael. A funding strategist at Maastricht University in the Netherlands in a right now in the European Union were waiting for the relaunch of the US, big set of funding priorities, which will be called Horizon Europe and will provide something like ninety, four, billion euro of funding over seven years and I was actually at a presentation last week where someone was previewing all of these new. Themes and missions, and quite a lot of them are. Highly political in nature. So making Europe competitive in technology say but there's also areas of Europe that are underdeveloped and there's a correlation between the development status of these areas and the resurgence of certain populist and nationalist political sentiments, and so there's some attention that's paid to. How funding from the e you might stimulate some innovation and some business in those areas to try to counter or neutralize some of those political sentiments. This situation is broadly similar to that in the United States as well. His peg cason she runs a consulting firm that helps scientists and institutions write grants funding in the US. Every federal agency in the United States were created by political entities because these are taxpayer dollars that. Go into this research at that level. So it's had an impact from the earliest days and even in the seventies after the National Science Foundation was fairly well established there started to be rumbles from Congress about what are we doing here where we spending this money? What is the national interest? So what happens if your research interests don't align with the specific priorities of the funders after all they hold the case the bank Power does research you have to ask independent questions? own. Many scientists seemed to follow the old adage if you can't beat them join them. If you want the money, you have to play the game in other words you have to get political and you can see that in that grams for quite a while people did not use the words climate change. The phrase that was often substituted was geochemical cycling biogeochemical cycles. That Basically speaks to all the things that happen related to climate change without that trigger were getting anyone's attention and they started doing that because one of our Congress members started digging into any grant that said climate change. So framing can sometimes be away around studying politically hot issues without showing that that's what you're doing. On the other hand, I've had some people I worked with disgust, their potential idea with a program officer and literally get told that's a great idea. I cannot find it in the current political climate. The way you would your grunts matters because politics matters it doesn't take much an errand phrase to be amplified into a political headline I. Remember when I was at the NSF there was a big uproar about a particular study that they terminology was shrimps on a treadmill. This is on a Gal, a foam, a program. Officer for the National Science Foundation and people were very upset because they couldn't see the value of the science that was given that why would you wanna put shrimp on a treadmill? There was a lot of concern about what the politics or the framing body was seeing as a value for that research based on this assessment of why would you wanNA study that to be clear? The study wasn't just about shrimps on a treadmill it was about the responses to water quality which compulsive potent things like agriculture farming fish. But nonetheless, it was used by Republican Senator Tom Coburn two point to waste folk from spending. This thing can have a real impact on research is well, scientists can be worried about how such perceived. This is in no small part. Why consultants like peg exist I will ask people to shift language in the abstract to they do not become targets later or so that the program officers don't have to ask them later like I try to help my clients become a little bit more savvy about what is the political landscape in which they're asking for crowdfunding scientists funders have been playing this game for a long time. To some extent, a Mike Sense. Often taxpayers are the ones funding research, and so the argument is made that their elective representatives should stand up for the priorities of the electorate when giving those funds. And sometimes funding politics has nothing to do with bias. Institutions is just a competition between scientists and scientists can play daddy to. It would be nice to think that the best one did labs always ones which do the quote unquote best research. Sometimes the most well funded clubs a simply ones. Now how to write the best grounds the ones who know how to play politics. But there are times when no amount of creative writing and savvy competitiveness can help situations in which are news research just plain shut down. Close off by politics and power, and beyond the reach of even the most widely of scientists. Mon that, coming up. So it had the classic sort of chilling effect where they were reluctant to fund any sort of research they decided that they would shut the science down. back in Nineteen ninety-six a piece of legislation was added to the US spending bill as it went through Congress and became known as the dickey amendment and amendment said that the money that was allocated to the CDC Centers for Disease Control, it said that they can't use that money to advocate for gun control. This is legal scholar Alan Rushton the USTA work for gun control advocacy. You could interpret that narrowly as meaning, you can't fund research to write articles that are basically political propaganda or political advocacy. You can't have funded articles that are specifically saying we should enact. This piece of legislation it's almost like lobbying on behalf of a particular piece of legislation that would be the narrow interpretation of it, but it is somewhat ambiguous about where exactly cross the line into advocating for gun control from the CDC's perspective though it was quite clear. What this meant was a shot across the bow. This is Mark Rosenberg he was director of the CDC's National Center for Injury Prevention and control, which oversaw gun violence research. When they came in was introduced, they also took away all the money that we were using to do the gun violence prevention research. And this sent a clear message to the community that this is not a good area to do research in. It's not a good area. It's a scientific career in because there won't be any government funding for it. This is different from saying we don't think your area of study is a priority. The implication funds for searches were concerned is research is only a priority if it concludes what we wanted to. In fact, according to mark the National Rifle Association the NRA who had lobbied for the amendment were quite explicit about this was a very direct threat because they said. If you do gun violence prevention research whether you do it at the National Center for Injury Prevention and control. Or whether you give grants to academic researchers to do it. We can make your life miserable. We will write congressional letter of inquiry. And we will say in the letter that you were promoting and advocating gun control basically that you're lobbying for gun control. On. The CDC we never lobbied that was against the law. And so they knew that letter would be baseless, but it could take weeks or months to respond. And if you're an academic issue, take weeks or months to answer those charges, the NRA kept a sustained pressure on Congress meaning that as of Nineteen, Ninety six research into gun violence from the CDC was. Gone. This was later extended to the national. Institutes. Of Health to. A mostly amendment didn't technically banned research. The agency stayed clear of worries about backlash. Even when the Obama administration effectively told the CDC to not regard the dickey amendment as a banner for search in two, thousand, twelve, you know you're somebody who works for the CDC or the NIH and you're in charge of allocating this money you might err on the side of caution of not wanting to get in trouble with really powerful forces like people in Congress or interest groups like the NRA, you don't want to offend them and then have there be a backlash and then suddenly they're you know they're cutting funding and that sort of thing this on easy standoff continued until twenty eighteen when several horrific shutting incidents compelled Congress to finally clarify the dickey amendment. Although they did get rid of it. They did say the CDC has the authority to carry out. On the causes of gun violence. So year after they made that, Change Congress did allocate twenty, five million dollars for the CDC and the NIH and it was the first time in you know more than twenty years that there had been any funding through these institutions for research on gun violence. So it remains to be seen if that will become a regular thing if congress will continue to give money or increase it in the future but at least for that year, they did allocate twenty, five million dollars. So that was seen as a pretty significant step forward on this. Power politics permeate the professional life of a scientist. Even. Before you get into the lab politics, shape shaping the game. And it has been for decades. But as influential as all of that is, let's put aside for a moment. Imagine yourself in the lap. You have an idea. You want to ask a question and you have the funds today so It's just you in the science pure and simple objective empirical. Fondly the politics stops, right Scientists often great looking at political problems because they like to see themselves. Such things. In fact, science is actually of society. It reflects our perspectives, our identities, our values Abaya sees our assumptions. A lot about politics empower adds a large scale active interference by institutions. Deliberate attempts influence entail assigns to meet a particular agenda and how science can come second to political motivations. But it isn't just institutions that can have agendas. Scientists can too and they often much less visible. In, fact, sometimes people don't even know they have them his alley spell researcher of science policy scientists like to constructing identity themselves which I think he's very positive and helps them decide to work standing outside as what they might. Around. I think it's a useful. I do I. Think it can get damaging people kill themselves into thinking that they've done happen and one thing you see a lot of controversies coming up is when people say things like away scientists we don't see. And people go. No. You'll being massively racist because you're not seeing racism seeing sexism that is already embedded in your wedding. The ways in which political issues in society are translated into science has become a really hot button topic especially in recent years. As the extent of structural inequity in society becomes more visible. It is inevitable that people start to turn that Lens to science. His should be to again why is it that we tend to answer questions, for example, using genetics and molecular biology techniques, for example, right well, that has to do with the trends in particular fields, and it has to do with the kinds of questions that get asked by people who are leaders in that field in the leaders in the field are sort of setting the terrain for for what are the important questions and what are the important issues. The direction of research is influenced by powerful people but not so people have access to power. Many studies demonstrate that on many levels societies. Systemic, inequity an. The results of this is the people leading the way Aban Lodge at homogeneous group over white dudes. And that can influence the output of research take technology. For example, there is this something that technology is morally neutral or often people go beyond that and say that technology by and large is good. It's beneficial and the problem with that is that because society because power because politics shapes the technology than technology actually reflects the society and the power and the politics, and because we know societies are structurally equal. They have bias season vetted them. Then it's not surprising that we see lots of technologies that reflect those bias and reflect those inequalities. An example that I often gives the Spurs. So, this barometer is used to measure lung function and when it was built, it was built with the assumption that black people were weaker and so actually embedded in the technology is race correction software. So you flip a switch and it sort of corrects for you know if you're non white and the assumption is that. I said, non white people have weaker lungs and not only is that incorrect? It's in use today inequity like this is borne out all over science. For example, twenty one study showed that black researchers were ten percent less likely to receive funding from the US National Institutes of health than their white counterparts. Even after controlling for educational background publication record. Country Virgin etc.. Latest of these suggested, this might be empowered you to the topics of black researchers chose to research in essence type of questions that black researchers wanted to ask when notice valued by predominantly white decision makers. And similar trends can be seen for over researchers of color. The same can be said for attainment according to the UK Higher Education Statistics Agency while three point, three percent of the UK population is black. Around one point, nine percent of academic stuff up lock on. When you look at most senior roles, many more white people fill those roles while no black people do. Whatever the reason this variation exists across the world and has been widely documented that this impacts research most clinical trial participants are white. Most of the animals tend to be male. These may not be deliberate discrimination of not pragmatic decisions made out of convenience, but they serve reflection of those carrying out the research research. And the by sample biases the. Experiment. The may be a tendency for scientists to see themselves in a professional capacity is separate from mainstream society. To see the reasoning immune to systemic problems regard their analyses apolitical. After all science is about objective system and society, the inequity politics empower power that comes with it is anything. But. What if by separating science from society researchers are excluding key variables What if they are in fact, not protecting themselves or signs after all if we can think about that more carefully and also ask scientists. More reflective about it. Then we can actually start to think about the systems that shape these kinds of decisions, and then do a better job i. think of actually addressing the things that most of us do to address these kinds of biopsies, structural inequalities. But if we assume that they're not there, then we tend to locate the politics in the individual or the bias in the individual but by and large the folks that might be producing technologies that we find problematic or saying things that we see as. Problematic they're actually part of systems and we don't understand that enough. This episode was produced by me Nick how with editing Baker and Benjamin Thompson. It featured contributions from many people including that should be deposited. Michael around peg at Kissing Susanna Gal Allen Rostrum Mark Rosenberg and Alice Bell. Thank you for listening and see you next time.

scientist Congress CDC National Science Foundation researcher United States National Institutes of Health Paulo Brazil National Rifle Association Brazilian science Michael Brazil Europe Sao Paulo Paul Senator Tom Coburn Brazilian government Alan Rushton CDC Centers for Disease Contro
NPR News: 09-27-2019 9AM ET

NPR News Now

04:59 min | 1 year ago

NPR News: 09-27-2019 9AM ET

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply live from NPR news in Washington. I'm Jim Cain House Speaker. Nancy Pelosi is promising that the house will take the time it needs for its impeachment inquiry inquiry into president trump but adds that the process doesn't need to in her words drag on Pelosi appeared on MSNBC this morning one day after the release of the whistle lower report that revealed president trump's phone call with the leader of Ukraine asking for Ukrainian investigation of Joe Biden and his son Pelosi also lashed out at Attorney General William Bar in his handling of the matter I think they're going to cover up of the cover up and that's really very sad for them and to have a the Justice Department go so well they have been for a while and now just makes matters worse about half of Americans support the impeachment inquiry according to a new NPR PBS Newshour Marissa poll forty nine percent approve of the inquiry and forty six percent disapprove according to the poll which was taken just after Speaker Pelosi announced the inquiry but before release of the whistleblower complaints about trump's call with the president of Ukraine ship tracking data show a British flagged tanker that was seized by Iran back in July is now leaving Iranian waters NPR's Peter Kenyon reports the vessels Swedish owners confirmed the Senate Perreault is is on the move. The tanker was seized by Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps accused of marine violations. The move came after British forces had seized in a runny tanker near Gibraltar brought her. London accused Tehran selling oil to Syria in violation of a US sanctions the Iranian tanker then named grace one was released and promptly headed for the Syrian coast offload its cargo drawing condemnation from London and Washington the incident sparked fears that a major portion of the world crude supply would be disrupted the US announced its military military presence in the region would be beefed up and Iran warned that any attack would provoke war in the region Peter Kenyon NPR news stumble voters go to the polls tomorrow in Afghanistan to choose a new president. There's a new warning from the Taliban telling Afghans to boycott the election. Jennifer glass reports from Kabul. The Taliban have condemned the election from the start and launched a number of tax on campaign headquarters election rallies the group's latest threat calls in its fighters to do everything at their disposal to prevent the election on Saturday and it said if people do not want to get hurt they should stay away from polling stations. The Taleban called the election of fraudulent process that is in US interests not the Afghans the Taliban Donovan trying to get the United States back to the negotiating table after talks broke down as the two sides were to sign an agreement on the withdrawal of US troops and launch inter-afghan talks six and he talks are on hold pending on what happens in the election for NPR news. I'm Jennifer glass in Kabul the US Commerce Department says consumer spending being rose one tenth of one percent last month. That's the smallest gain in six months while personal income grew four tenths of one percent this is NPR president trump has ordered a huge cut in the number of refugees allowed to resettle in the United States under the president's order the current ceiling of thirty thousand for the year would be cut down to eighteen thousand the lowest number since the modern refugee program was established in nineteen eighty under the previous administration. The number was as high hi as one hundred ten thousand a Republican senator from Georgia has introduced a bill to study mass violence Lisa Hagan of member station W. A. B. a year reports it would give a three hundred million dollar infusion to the atlanta-based. Centers for disease control and Prevention Senator Johnny Isakson is proposing to spend seventy. I five million dollars a year for four years to study causes of mass violence and how to prevent Mark Rosenberg is a former head of the CDC's Injury Prevention Center and an advocate for research funding on gun violence. He calls the bill a major acknowledgement fundamentally. What it says is that we can do better and we can learn more and we can prevent these lives from being injured and being lost a public health approach. That's tremendously important statement in recognition by law the the CDC may not use federal money to advocate for gun control senator is accent is a vocal supporter of second amendment rights for NPR news. I'm LISA HAGAN IN ATLANTA. Tens is of thousands of demonstrators marched to New Zealand's Parliament in Wellington today calling for action to stop climate change. The protests were inspired by Teen Activists Greta Tune Berg who spoke to the United Nations this week and plans to attend to protest later today in Montreal. I'm Jim Kane N._P._R. News in Washington.

president NPR US NPR Taliban trump Washington Iran Speaker Pelosi senator Peter Kenyon Kabul Jennifer glass Lisa Hagan CDC NPR Ukraine US Commerce Department Islamic Revolutionary Guard Co
Keeping up with the Bloombergs

Marketplace Morning Report with David Brancaccio

06:45 min | 11 months ago

Keeping up with the Bloombergs

"We'll start with the economics version of an Alpine run. I'm David Brancaccio. Let's connect to the Swiss ski resort of Davos is home of the World Economic Forum the yearly gathering of heads of state and business elite president trump is there even as his Senate impeachment. Trial goes on in Washington. The Economist uh-huh Magazines Patrick Fouls familiar voice on this program is covering Davos greeting from from the snow. Capped Mountains going into this conference. A key focus was going to be governments and companies addressing climate change and investors applying environmental social and governance standards to investments. Is that Patrick a dominant theme or have have trade tensions eclipse that there's two big themes one is actually climate change the Europeans. The Asians are beginning to envision a worldwide companies and investors Do More to decarbonised economy. American funds investors are bit will hesitant or not. I think the second thing that is a theme is Almost the trump if the -cation off trade policy ran the world so other countries beginning to a mimic the relatively assertive policies of the US in several different ways and that's very clear to president trump was on US television vision. Today did an interview and suggested strongly that the US feels Europe has done US wrong on trade that now that phase one with China is signed. He's he's GonNa Focus his attention toward Europe. Is Europe ready for this well. I think what's happening behind. The scenes is a big argument over digital taxes. So from house announced that wants wants to impose taxes on big tech companies other countries in Europe. would like to do so to and and the US On the Treasury's almonds and others pretty pretty angry about this if they manage to resolve that I wonder if relations My might remain reasonably com. I'm not because it's an election year. And as the China phase one deal showed US President trump is keen to avoid a big sort of trade upset. The derails the economy. The economists Magazines Business Affairs Editor. Patrick Fouls in Davos Switzerland. Thank you very much thanks having now. Here's the number Democratic presidential candidate. Michael Bloomberg has spent more than two hundred million dollars on advertising just eight weeks. The price of political ads has gone up an average average twenty percent across many platforms. Other candidates may have to adjust. Here's marketplace's Kristen Schwab. TV is still the leader in the political advertising market cricket and like any market their supply and demand Steve Pass waiter is vice president of Kantar media. There's only so much inventory right. Then you narrow it down to prime inventory Tori you know once you get into those programs that everybody likes you. Know starts pretty prohibitive. Bloomberg is still introducing himself to voters. Older voters are more likely to vote out in primaries and are more likely to watch TV his focus on TV could push other candidates to spend more of their AD dollars online says Michael Franz Co director of the Wesleyan media media project. There are also more places to go for a campaign that is strategically trying to target Bloomberg says. Even if he doesn't win the primaries he'll continue running Ads against trump and franchise that could inflate the price of adds even more because Bloomberg will be paying more. He won't get the lower market rates reserved for candidates and and that would just raise prices for politicians but for any company looking for airtime. I'm Kristen Schwab for marketplace markets. The footsie index in London is unchanged changed the moment the S. and P. future here four tenths percent. The Nasdaq futures up seven tenths percent. After a pause of more than two decades the federal government is set to start funding research on gun violence the Centers for Disease Control and the National Institutes of Health will split twenty five million dollars. Democrats in Congress had pushed for double that but Lisa Hagan from the public radio reporting collaborative guns in America reports. It's still a major policy shift in the early nineteen nineties. A study out of emory university. Found that guns in the home increase the risk of homicide shortly after that the National Rifle Association started lobbying to shut down the CDC department. Eh funded the study. Arkansas Congressman Jay dickey then wrote language into a spending bill saying researchers can't use federal money to advocate for gun control the CDC continued pursuing gun research for about three years but many researchers were wary of running afoul of some members of Congress. That's according to mark Rosenberg who headed the CDC's Injury Prevention Center at the time. Let's scared a lot of people away from doing research in that area most federally funded Gun. Violence Research slowed to a trickle for the last twenty years. Researchers like Daniel Webster have had to stitch together resources from state and private funders. He's studies gun policy at Johns Hopkins. Webster says recent gun violence research has relied on data. That's already available because it's cheaper the more expensive and time consuming work of gathering new data. That is why is particularly important. Have Federal Funding in two thousand eighteen. The mood in Congress started to shift just after the high school shooting in Park Florida Health and Human Services Secretary Alex as our told members of Congress that the dickey amendment doesn't prohibit funding gun research coach. My understanding is that the right or does not in any way impede our ability to conduct our research about actively speak out. Now knowing we've had our eighteenth school shooting that was Florida congresswoman. Kathy castor pressing as he told her his agencies would pursue the research fast forward to late two thousand nineteen president. Trump signed the spending bills into law to make that happen. The federal grant process is in its earliest stages so no research has been funded yet but webster says the federal money could lead to in depth surveys over long periods across wide swaths of the country and Atlanta. I'm Lisa Hagan for marketplace. Also monitor interest rates here the ten year benchmark interest rate up this morning one point seventy percent in New York. I'm David Brancaccio with the marketplace morning report. We were from A._P._M.. American public media.

trump US president Patrick Fouls Congress David Brancaccio CDC Europe. Michael Bloomberg Daniel Webster Davos Kristen Schwab Lisa Hagan Bloomberg Jay dickey China Capped Mountains Washington Senate
Accused Returns for a New Season

Young Charlie by Hollywood & Crime

11:20 min | 11 months ago

Accused Returns for a New Season

"When a thirty nine year old father went to his third shift at a uranium processing plant in vanished one muggy night in nineteen eighty four? His family thought for sure he turn up with some strange tale about quitting his job in half but the days without contact turned into weeks in the weeks. In two years David box locks never resurfaced now thirty five years later the investigative true crime. podcast accused has reexamined this mysterious case. Uncovering uncovering evidence. That should have been pursued back. When box went missing cincinnati-based reporters amber hunt and Amanda Rosman? Piece together this bizarre tale all through dozens of witness and expert interviews police dismissed box death as a suicide but his family believes he was killed to cover the truth about deadly deadly safety lapses at the secretive governmental facility. Where he worked? You're about to hear a preview of season three of accused hosted by amber hunt. This is a selection from the season's first episode titled Disappearing Dad as You listened subscribed to accused on apple podcasts spotify or wherever You're listening now. If you'd like to bench the entire third season today you can subscribe at wondering Dot Com Slash P L U S. It's peaceful out here it's lush. It's green. It's the type of setting that makes a writer get a little flowery lowry with their words. A goose waddles past and settles atop a nest deer gather beyond the trees that line the winding road leading past manmade Hans Hans topped with healthy films of green. Algae you can see. The occasional bubble reached the water surface evidence of life below. It's a beautiful day. Visit a nature preserve. I'm here in Crosby Township Hamilton County. Ohio twenty three miles north the inquirer building which is where I work in downtown Cincinnati. My reporting partner. Amanda Rosman with me are two more colleagues. It's safe to say this is one of the more pleasant assignments we for. Journalists have had a while but as happened so often when telling a tale involving someone's breath things aren't quite what they seem to tell you about the guy they found in the salt over implant. Six pipe fitter work. Third Jaffe disappeared. If you know accused you know we've reinvestigated to unsolved murders in our previous seasons. This episode marks the beginning of season three but the story here is unlike any. We've reported before Yes added center. There is still a death and yes the initial investigation into that. Death was far from comprehensive. But this story is about much more than the end of one person's life it's also so about deadly government secrets that took decades to come to light secrets that some people believe got a man killed breath. And if you get the truth can you better start packing danger. I'm amber hunt and this is accused the mysterious death of David And it's on the side of that Nature Preserve Urban Rural Ohio where the story begins more than thirty five years ago back then there were no geese or deer on the land. The man made ponds that exist exist. Today are actually the footprints of a series of industrial plants. That once stood there the place was called the fernald feed materials. Dell's production center. It was the area's biggest employer and because of that mouthful of a name as well as the red and white water tower. Emblazoned is in with a checkered board. Design that loomed overhead. A lot of people in the town assumed. Its workers made dog food. It looks like Purina Company logo checkerboard pattern. The employees who work there of course new better. This was no pet food company. It wasn't an offshoot Carina. It was a uranium processing plant run by the government as part of the arms race of the Cold War workers for national lead of. Oh Hi oh or an aloe stuffed the plants and when they were hired they signed documents promising to keep their mouths shut about precisely what they did there life. I started working at eighty two. You had to sign an agreement. You wouldn't talk about anything that you did there under penalty. I think it was ten thousand thousand dollars in five years in prison. That's John Sadler. Twenty year employees. He eventually was promoted to management but in the eighties. He was a regular completely just like David Box. The two weren't close friends but they knew each other. He says he was just he just kind of kept yourself. You know I'd I'd say pretty much and But I mean he got along with. Everybody is just a fellow worker. You know with no problem but I. I don't think he was really real outgoing. You know like some people are but everybody liked him. He did his job like we all did ask asked John Sadler about David's case and he takes you back to June nineteenth nineteen eighty-four. That's the day. He arrived to work a morning shift at for an old and learned that something strange had happened. Sadler worked implants six which was the metals fabrication plant in the middle of this warehouse. House type building. There was a huge furnace filled with a mixture of potassium chloride and sodium chloride. The point of this salt. That was a bit it complicated but what you need to know right now is that it was really hot. Thirteen hundred and fifty degrees Fahrenheit for context that's hottest fell sick lava which is in the hottest lava. But it's still lava worked at plant six where this happened and there's a guy that with a furnace operator. He'd always come in and our earlier to get things going and everything and so anyway way I walked in and clocked in. He says come here. Let me show you this and he showed me this furnace which was probably. I'll say. Eight or ten feet feet long and it had molten salt in it it just looked like lava always look that way so he showed it to me and it had a brown crust based on top of the the salt and he says I have never seen this. I've been working doing this for a long time. The worker had lifted the lid off the that and noticed a strange crusty film atop the mixture inside. The mixture usually glowed red but the weird crust on top didn't and it was black kind of city. The worker called his supervisor over and pointed it out. Does that look like a piece of bone floating on the top. He he asked the supervisor. Couldn't make sense of what he was seeing and told the worker to stir the film into the sludge and get back to work. And that's what happened happened around the same time. An employee named David box was expected to meet his car pool buddy for a ride home from his midnight shift wbt. David didn't show. It would be several hours before and a low workers would connect the dots and realize holy God that sooty film in the salt. Bad of plant six might be the remains of David Box. You might notice off the bat that we've changed the title of the season beyond on the victim's name seasons one and two were unambiguously about unsolved murders Elizabeth. Andy's Retha Welsh without question. They died at the hands of someone else and not in a justifiable homicide. Kind of way season three might be a murderer as well but then again Dan might not and that's very much the point. The person at the center of this story might have been killed by someone else or despite despite the family's insistence that he wasn't suicidal it's possible he might have killed himself. It's also possible however remotely that he is in debt at all. Had police done a thorough investigation at the time. His family might not have as many questions as they still have. And there are a lot of questions left to answer so many that it's tough to know exactly where to begin. This is one of the most complicated and layered stories. Stories I've ever reported elements of the story have trickled out over the decades in my newspaper. The Inquirer as well as national media reports details came in dribs and drabs. The official account never even included the gruesome death of a father of three but for us that death. There's not only at the center of the story. But it's the whole point to hear more. Subscribe on Apple podcasts. Modify or wherever. You're you're listening right now. You can listen to the entire season free on subscribed to wondering plus today wondering dot com slash p. l. that's w dot com slash appeal bench this season go to. WWW dot wondering dot com slash Josh Class. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM slash L. S. to support the creators of accused directly. Go to eight dollars. Bonus honest content dander early episodes. That's at Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special project. CINCINNATIAN PROTOCOL USA Today. Network narrated rated by produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil and edited by Amy also intern Mark Rosenberg provided additional research music. It was composed by Andrew Higley to look at case documents photos videos or visit accused podcasts. Dot Com as noted. Somebody'll comes from a living history. The community transcript to those interviews available all the alliance

Amanda Rosman amber hunt David David Box John Sadler David Box Ohio apple supervisor Hans Hans USA spotify Crosby Township Hamilton Count Cincinnati Jaffe writer partner W O N D E R Purina Company
Iran's retaliation

The Current

20:43 min | 11 months ago

Iran's retaliation

"This is a CBC podcast. Hi I'm Matt Galloway. This is a podcast from the January eighth edition of the current. They said very clearly that if the United States takes any further action Iran will respond accordingly and we will respond in a very harsh the proportionately we did not start this process of escalation. The United States has to come to its senses they should stop listening to clowns a sound from video of onlookers to one of the Iranian missile attacks in Iraq and Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif staking his position afterwards the US Iran tit for tat reached another level last night. Iran launched more than twenty missiles at two military bases in Iraq were. US troops are stationed response. It said to the US killing of Iranian General Israel Customs Sulejmani was ref- adding that his country was not escalating or looking for war. There are no reports of American or Iraqi casualties and the chief of the defence staff. Jonathan Vance has said that all Canadian troops are safe. pesha McGee is a freelance journalist based in Baghdad. Pesha good morning you're in Baghdad as these attacks were happening last night. What were you hearing in the capital? After the attacks took place we did hear a fair amount of helicopter and actively Baghdad coming from the Green Zone. What do we know about how much damage these missile strikes caused? It's very likely that caused damage to at the very least you know equipment on the basis particularly the Assad military base in western Iraq which is one of the biggest military bases Chirac why these bases the US has a presence throughout Iraq. But why were these basis targeted do you think the. US is hosted on Iraqi military bases but these two in particular have a fairly large USO troupe present in the u the Assad military base in western Iraq is known for having the largest amount on a US troops in Iraq. So you know. I think the goal was to aim at US personnel and he was interested in rocks. Is your sense that the Iraqi leadership knew that these attacks were coming well. They just said that they knew the acting. Prime Minister of the method just released a statement saying but Iran alerted him to the fact that they were going to launch missiles and he in turn Let the United States no to You Know Essentially Watch out. He also has not come outright and condemned the attacks. What does that tell you? I think it tells us that. The Iraqi government has a fairly close relationship with Iran Mathie with originally brought to power by a coalition that has Iranian backing And prior to all of this happening met the cell the the money several times You know it shows a clear difference in rhetoric at the same time you know we have to look at the damage caused by these strikes Eh She's like. Nobody was killed in missile strikes. The thrust of the statements coming from the Iraqi prime minister if you take them in its totality seemed to suggest that the Iraqi leadership wants the heat to be turned down. The prime minister has called on all sides to practice self restraint adhere to international agreements. Respect the Iraqi state And is concerned about a devastating all at war in Iraq the region and the world. What do you think the leadership wants from from the two uh-huh forces that that that have put Iraq in the middle of this conflict? I think of course. They don't want to be trapped in the middle of a proxy war Iraq. You know has just gotten out of several years of conflict And I think the you know the prospect effect of being plunged into another war between two states that you know are fighting battles that have nothing near truly to do with Iraq. It's something and that is terrifying too many Iraqis and I know that Iraqi leadership. It's very much against the possibility Iraq being plunged into violence into chaos again. Told me more about that. In terms of how Iraqi citizens feel you tweeted as you said that that in many ways they feel trapped between The United added states in Iran. Yeah I mean we also have to look at kind of the local context in Iraq right so it is coming out of three months of mass popular protests Where people had been demanding for an end to corrupt government? They'd been asking for internal reforms. They were asking also for Iraq to be free from foreign influence from bulls Iran and the particular emphasis on Iran. And now they you know see their country potentially getting you know those demands demands kind of getting swallowed up in a proxy battle between two You know mega powers and it's You know I think it's quite depressing. It's quite depressing prospect for almost everyone. I've spoken to one of the protesters that you spoke within a piece that you wrote said We. We just want our Iraq. Yeah exactly I mean I you know but people have been saying is that they want the very simple things right. They want to be able to have the ability to have a good education. They want to be able to have jobs and they wanted to. Have the rock belong to at OCOEE and not be dictated by the you know not have their future dictated by the interest of foreign empowers which the nation do you think they're more upset about today. Would it be around of the United States. I mean you know. If we're talking about protesters esters. I think that they would probably be more upset at it on to a certain extent just because because it on You know Iranian backed militias have also been targeting protesters over the past few days and also have been using this moment Canada's an opportunity to claim I'm that protesters you know our pro-american which they're not but I'd also say that frustrations pretty across the board you know the people are very upset. Set that the United States has again acted unilaterally and has you know seemed to take Iraqi life in rocky blood very cheaply. What will you watch for born in the coming days? This seems to change sort of not just day by day but minute by minute I mean you know. Things are very hard to predict. I think we have to look carefully to see what let the. US's next move will be. Iran seems to be signaling that with these Missile strikes knee be. That would be a you know anniversary of retaliation for now. The other thing we have to look for is that it wasn't just salamone was killed in. US strikes. It was a militia leader called Matthew Mundus Mundus who is an Iraqi Leader of a militia called Khattab Hezbollah which the biggest militias within Iraq We also also have to look out for revenge and retaliation from them. I think it would be very odd if they If there wasn't some sort of reaction from those groups will leave it there. I appreciate you. Oh speaking to us this morning. Thank you bye-bye. McGee is a freelance journalist based in Baghdad. Marco's and ball is the national security correspondent with Reuters. He's in Washington. DC The market morning to you. How are you I'm well after these attacks? US President Donald Trump tweeted all as well so far so good not perhaps what people may have expected from the president On his favourite medium twitter. What do you make of what he said Well it's kind of an attempt to put a bit eight of A damper a lid on Hysteria that may have Welled up as a result of the attack on general celebrity which of course nobody in Washington really expected had expected People after talking of Jerusalem occurred after the Iranians batallions. Did you know there was a great deal of worry in Washington that this was going to blow up into something really really really bad. Some general war more general more between the United States Iran given the however that the Arabian attacks on the air bases in Iraq don't seem to have killed anyone and maybe that was even a deliberate strategy your tactic or whatever by the Iranians Trump seems to perhaps have joined in with the radiance who were kind hundred restraint of their language At least internationally if maybe wanting to calm the whole thing down certainly Well there are people people around trump who clearly encouraged him to go ahead and attack. Somebody generally the view in both American politics probably probably weren't worth it but is that this is rather extreme step to take so the idea of backing away or we're not getting carried away reacting to a radio attacks that didn't execute anybody suggests that there's a desire or at least recognition on the part of trump in particular that Maybe you don't want to stir this up to you know to the point of the whole Area flames national security. Sources telling you about what the next steps from Washington could be Well given the this stuff all happened. Think late last night. It's a bit hard to catch up at the They're going to be secret. Briefings for members of Congress. Today there was a a small briefing for what they call the gang of Eight. who were the top congressional leaders and leaders of the targets community Late yesterday which went on for several hours and the normally. You could get a bit of a readout from that but it was very hard to get out last night because of all the a tax that we're actually going on by Iraq so it's by it's by Iran in Iraq. So it's a bit hard to to know. Exactly what's what's going to happen next here in Washington you mentioned you. Will you mentioned the gang of eight and it's interesting because the Democratic congressional leaders were notified immediately after these Iranian strikes. That was is not the case Last week with the attack that killed General Soleimani do see a change in that well normally normally they should have been informed before the attacks on general. It's all the money as well. So we're returned to more to normality and again. That's that's probably not necessarily the way. Trump wants top rate because he thought doesn't like operating according to the reality but I think even the professional people the permanent government around him months to act that way. I think you see evidence of the permanent government You know at least having more influence on hip now given that There's no particular evidence that the radio strike on the basis use. Beverly Americans actually killed any money. The supreme leader of Iran said in a televised address today that the US presence in that region should come to an end. Is there any likelihood that that that would happen I don't think there's going to be a complete end to the US presence of the region especially regarding you know US president. It's not so much in Iraq but in other countries nearby Kuwait Saudi Arabia. USA He Where the US has very extensive interests? And the you know sub- serious military bases So I think that's just noise basically but it's noise that you would expect from Iran. The president didn't address the nation Last night and as we mentioned the tweet seemed restrained for how he usually speaks on twitter. Is there the real opportunity. Do you think now for de-escalation or perhaps diplomacy to try and turn the heat down. I could see de-escalation. Diplomacy is not trumps favorite modus operandi so You know we'll kind of have to wait and see on that front trod but certainly there's a a large opportunity for de-escalation given the lack of death in the radio attack on the Iraqi base. Something that you have said he could have been perhaps if not intentional than than a way to try and telegraph their intentions that they didn't mean to kill anybody. They're doing this as a show to to to you know perhaps internally to show that they were responding to the death of the money. That's certainly the way I kind of read it. It's the way I think. A lot of people people in America at this point read it mark. Hudson ball will leave it there. Thank you thank you mark Rosenberg National Security correspondent with Reuters. We reached him in Washington. DC in the fall of nineteen ninety eight. An elderly woman known as the Cat Lady went missing see very Very Distinctive Silhouette and very recognizable. Nizam's when you'd see you're walking into town a handkerchief on her hair long overcoat like somebody that lived on the street. All police could find and where her thirty cats shot dead. I always knew something had happened to her to vanish like that uncover the cat lady case he's from. CBC podcasts. For more on how these attacks are being felt across the region on joined by Christian life wreck. He's a professor of political science. That's at Royal Military College and Queen's University. He is in Kingston Ontario Christian. Good morning to you. Good Morning I want to start with the story. That's unfolding in that region. That's top of mind for so many Canadians right now. That's the death of one hundred. Seventy six people on board or Ukrainian plane crashed in Tehran. Sixty three Canadians. Among those dead people will wake up this morning. It's shocking news and people wake up this morning in the knowledge of the attack that we've just been talking about but then here of this plane crashes well and might initially connect the dots between the two. How are you reading what's happening? I mean the official statements have been of course that they're not related but One things the Iranians would have done in anticipation of of possible. US strikes against the missile launchers or for instance radar sites is that they might have used. GPS trackers and would possibly turned off either all sorts of other electronic equipment or try to use electron equipment to misguide and US assets cruise missiles planes or whatnot And so it's entirely possible that in the field of circumstance A civilian plane would readily get disoriented and not get for instance the proper sincere answers to knock right not the proper paying height for instance So so I think we'll. We would need an independent investigation to ascertain that whether we're actually going to be able to get that out around That'll be difficult ascertain. We'll follow that along as it develops in the meantime wh the attacks last night in these two basis. Why do you think those bases in particular were targeted? So I think the Iranians were trying to minimize the prospect of catering allied assets or allied personnel personnel other than the. US and the look. The Iranians have very good intelligence on what's happening on these basis It seems that several of the missiles also missed their intended targets and that was probably the greater risk A missile might fall somewhere where the Iranians had not intended it to fall then inadvertently Cost Collateral American Damage so I think it was meant as a clear signal that this was a strike. Against the United States it was not a strike against the NATO mission Oregon's partner countries within the region. Why do you think no one was hurt? Mark Rosenbaum hosing ball was suggesting that perhaps that was that was by design from the Iranians. Oh sure I mean. The Iranians could've retaliated right away. They have the intelligence they have the capabilities. There was no reason why the Iranians had to wait other than perhaps to honor the fallen general in morning Among the more time they gave the Americans more time Americans obviously had to move assets and people out of harm's way And I think that was very much intent Over the Iranian propaganda the machine had to retaliate. In some capacity the Americans would have much anticipated And so this is largely for the exploitation of domestic propaganda and for the the existential continuity of the regime rather than trying to inflict maximum damage on the United States. Canadian military has hundreds of troops in Iraq began moving the troops to Kuwait yesterday and the operations in Iraq have been paused. Do we know whether all of the Canadian troops out of Iraq I suspect the tweet by the chiefs defense stuff with indicated that if that had been the case of course now moving troops so it gets a lot more complicated because you WANNA make sure in case there's further strikes You don't confuse Canadian vehicles with Iraqi or US vehicles or whatnot. so I think they'll be considerable. Thinking of National National Defense and Kenya enforces this morning about how to ensure both the safety of the personnel and the ability of Canada of course in its leadership position will also have leadership roles to play Ah In assuring the safety of personnel and Alad Asset. Where does that? Where does that leave the role of Canada? A pause and operations isn't ceasing operations. Where does that that leave The Canadian troops so Canada will have an interest in a united. NATO is so Canada has like some other allies has withdrawn its troops The commitment by secretary-general showed America has been to restart the mission as soon as possible. And that's in the broader interests of of Canada because it wants to shore up the alliance then either lines is arguably the most important. Multilateral Institution of which candidates part and a significant interest enforce multiply for Canada in so Canada will not be the one breaking ranks it will be taking its cues from its allies And from the NATO they're also trying to counsel just in the final minute that we have when these attacks were launched. Last night I think a lot of people probably wondered. Is this the start of something that could get much larger and perhaps spiral out of control. MARKLE's inbal suggesting that perhaps there's the opportunity if not for diplomacy than certainly for de-escalation. Do you see that opportunity as well. sure I mean it doesn't missiles is is a fairly modest response The European Union yourself on the line has been really very active in trying to mediate with Iran Germany has indicated that it is actively talking to both Iran and Washington. And I think the statement by Secretary General Stoltenberg about the escalation is awesome. Awesome all of branch to Iran that perhaps There's a silver lining here and there may be an opportunity to negotiate and generate an endgame. That is acceptable. Both to the United States and Iran Iran both gone out of the current situation in for the region more broad than I guess the first signs of that would be what the US President says this morning. He's expected to talk later on today. Well as unpredictable as he is the unpredictability may also play to his strengths In terms of restraining BS Iranian leadership. Because if you're targeting arguably the second most important person in the country who knows who may be next among the arena league if they try to escalate Kirsten Brock thank you. It's been optician Sir. Christopher practice is a professor of political science at Royal Military College and Queen's University and an Eisenhower fellow the NATO Defense College still with the story. We we wanted to correct something from yesterday's program. One of our guests yesterday was speaking about the downing of an Iranian airliner in nineteen eighty eight by US forces that killed all two hundred ninety people aboard the guests said that the US later apologized for that incident actually the US has never apologized though. Eight years later it did express deep regret that and paid more than sixty one million dollars to the victims families to settle a lawsuit at the International Court of Justice for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

United States Iraq Iran Washington Iraq Baghdad Canada President Donald Trump president Reuters Iraqi government Matt Galloway Iranian General Israel Customs McGee Royal Military College twitter NATO Mohammad Javad Zarif professor of political science
Chapter 6: Last day laid bare

Accused

51:34 min | 11 months ago

Chapter 6: Last day laid bare

"Previously on accused thinking. There's something to do with plant if you marry and didn't know he was reported. This guy's just get ready to go out to South Dakota for the for the bike. Rally out there. We're looking at from say sketch crazy. So he was super a chance. He's a jerk. He was trying to. I think it's act some revenge for what the final folks and the government had done to him and his family member hunt. And this is accused custodial staff the updated box when I say the disappearance appearance of David box wasn't thoroughly investigated. I don't mean that the assigned detectives didn't do any work retired. Detective Peter Rucci remembers being in and out at that plant. For nearly a year I requested and received a three hundred fifty one page file of investigative documents compiled by Aldo RUCCI and his colleagues. They got statements from co workers collected bone remnants from the salt that even check out David's personal finances. The problem I have with the investigation is more a quality versus quantity thing because as you heard in previous episodes Alda Rucci. He decided early on. That suicide was the only possibility it's clear that all the detectives working the case agreed with that theory and every interview and police memo's seems an attempt back the theory up it feels like a textbook example of confirmation bias I asked Aldo Rucci about this Mike Mike. My concern is that it looked like in the interogations in in the investigation. That the stuff that said No. He wasn't suicidal. Seemed to be like set aside and only the things that said. Oh it could have happened with zeroed in on and then this homicide potential wasn't looked at at all. I think mainly from my standpoint. Mainly because how could he get into that furnace other than himself jump in but the fact is set. Detectives didn't find much point to suicide. Aside from a previous attempt years earlier with pills David hadn't started drinking again. His finances assists were square. His health was good. His relationship with his ex wife was better than it had been during much of their marriage. Even everyone who knew David best his family his friends his car pool. Buddy all said David was maybe tired. The day he died but he didn't seem depressed on top of that. Several role of the murder theory subscribers are former co workers who had worked with assault bat for years if they deem it possible for someone to get close enough to that Furnace Ernest Dump David in there. Why wouldn't the detectives at least considerate over the next two episodes were going allow precisely what happened? The Night David disappeared disappeared and what pads were overlooked. The murder theory is coming soon but first we need to talk about poultry If you're not watching. NBC's chilling New Crime Drama Lincoln. Rhyme hunt for the bone collector. It's well a crime. This show has a seriously twisted bad guy and a brilliant detective. There's a reason. Millions of people are obsessed. Luckily it streaming so you can watch anytime. The bone collector is a sophisticated gentleman and a sadistic serial killer hiding in plain sight catching him. We'll take the world's best detective Lincoln rhyme a forensic genius and Human Encyclopedia. And this is personal. Last time these two met Linkin again was left. Paralysed based on the best selling book by Jeffery Deaver. This show is too good not to share and to creepy to watch alone. Don't don't Miss Lincoln. Rhyme hunt for the bone collector now streaming and Fridays on NBC chicken bones. They really looked nothing like human human bones. But somehow one of the theories in David's disappearance was that the bone fragments recovered from the salt. That weren't human but were chicken bones in other versions of this theory. David Hood tossed a ham bone into the VAT or a deer carcass. Whatever the animal? The gist was the same. That David touched the creature into that along with his keys and glasses and even his steel toe boots so he could fake his death and start a new life. This might go without saying but just in case. It isn't clear we don't put much stock into that theory. We debated the title of the season being the mysterious disappearance appearance of David Box. Instead of the mysterious death but felt that was giving weight to a theory. That has no evidence. Supporting our faces will be quite read. What if David surfaces after this podcast to tell us about all the Margaritas he indeed had been drinking in Mexico? But there's nothing that supports this and plenty Eleni that disputes it. The county coroner's office personnel are on record saying that the bones pulled from the bat appeared. Human one looks like a clavicle cool bone but the bones couldn't be tested to save for sure because they'd been immersed in that potassium chloride sodium chloride slurry for days. They were too degraded to test back then and there on my now still not only did the corner believe the bones were human but so did an outside expert asked to consult on the case in a letter dated July Second Nineteen eighty-four a university of Cincinnati associate professor of anthropology named Anthony. Brazilian wrote my professional opinion. Is that the alleged human skeletal remains recovered within and near the FERNALD plant. Salt furnace are in fact the bones of an adult human. He specifies that one bone appeared to be half a clavicle to others appear to be ribs he wrote the three identified specimens provide clear and unequivocal evidence for human remains. He even went on to give a presentation on boxes case for the American Academy of Forensic Sciences in Nineteen eighty-five it also would have been pretty damn hard for David to disappear from the plant unnoticed. The Guard at the front gate was required wired to check. ID's every time someone went in or out and he said David didn't go through him. That means David would have had to climb the tall fence that surrounded under the plant property this was a government nuclear facility it's clear the workers weren't sticklers for safety but it was still tough to get on on and off the property in fact. Here's a former neighbor named Joe wessels describing. How when he was much younger? He pulled into the plants driveway because he got curious and wanted to check the place out. He remembers then when I was like enough to Dr driving down the driveway and seeing the guy step of the guard shack and he had like some kind of machine gun on them. And you're like Whoa okay. Didn't even get close to come up and ask them a question I just. He just was in the guard check. It was like some sort of a movie like he would just pop the guard check. Hey this machine gun unstrapped across his chest and you like okay. Just stop right there. Turn around in the driveway and went the other way David Son. Tony Box remembers the theories that his dad had flown the coop. The thinking was that David decided. I'M GONNA take another identity moves somewhere you know out of off this area and start another life. You know into you varies very minute zippo. Tony's reasoning isn't just that his dad loved his kids too much to flee. He says it just doesn't fit with David Personality Wise. He was a a creature of habit. He relatively did the same thing routinely every day. David wasn't a showy guy. He wasn't a big traveler. He went to work went home chatted on his CB radio and went to bed. Tony says his DAD liked. His routine and schizophrenia. Diagnosis snowsuit was accurate. This makes sense you do a little reading on the condition and you quickly see medical articles about the importance of routine even web. MD MD and a how to live with schizophrenia article. Posted on its website begins with number one set. A daily routine routines are comforting especially especially for people with mental conditions. That require a bit more work to keep grounded in reality also. No one saw David fleeing the plant nor were for any disturbances noted or holes cut along the fence line to indicate someone had escaped. But even if you sat all of that aside there's been no sign David ever since it's one thing to pull off faking your death. It's another to stay hidden for thirty five years especially when you're case has been featured on national final TV show. I'd mentioned previously that one of her nods managers Weldon Adams told me he's not convinced David died at the plant specifically typically he said and I don't be died I mean he just disappeared. This statement caught me off guard when he made it but it became more and more more bizarre is kept researching. The case Adams told me he didn't remember a whole lot about David box or his death he said was just one small incident in a very large plant and I was in charge of the entire plant. Which I is is that the company Adams worked for National Latte of Ohio hired lawyers at least three different times related to David's case each time some of Adam's employees employee's had to go testify often they were pretty high ranking officials and even cooling and sifting through the salt fat meant the plant had to essentially shut down for a few days so while David dying on the premises might not have been the most noteworthy thing to happen and Adam's career? I wouldn't characterize it as a small incident but Adams did twice. I mean you know I I had it up the operations in the whole black you so you know this was just one small incidents yes but I mean somebody died there. It's not too small. An incident sit n right. Yeah that's right. I asked him okay any possibility that anybody there could have there is always a. Are you know possibility that somebody would be hurt. But oh I can't think he would just go into that furnace. All by himself Adams appears to be in the he faked his death camp. But curiously Ashley and L. O.. Never argued in any of the cases that David wasn't dead. The company didn't object to a judge declaring him so the only thing they did argue argue was that he had to have put himself in the VAT. There's one more theory to way before we talk about homicide and that's the idea that David landed in the vet accidentally somehow if it sounds like a stretch that's because it is but it's still worth discussing and here's why my producer Amanda Rosman stumbled upon a booklet called closing the circle of history. The version she found online was saved as a PDF. But from the looks of it this had been produced and distributed in hardcopy sometime in late two thousand seven or maybe two thousand eight. It was drafted by floor. That's F. L.. You are one of the many companies involved in running the site over the decades. The booklet gives broad strokes of the history of fernald starting in nineteen fifty one. Several several years into the Cold War describes how the government investigated more than sixty locations in the Midwest and the south before landing on the thousand fifty acre plot plot outside of Fernald. The thirty resident hamlet offered what location scouts described as quote a skilled labor force lower. We're property values. A plentiful water supply a nearby railroad line close proximity to Cincinnati and level terrain and quote. What caught my eye in? The booklet began page. Forty eight under the headline rumors run rampant at Fernald. The right up said that because residents Insen even workers didn't fully understand what was happening at Fernald rumors started spreading one. Rumor was about a flock of birds dropping dead as they flew lou through smoke. Let off at the company another Tall Tale involved rabbits that mutated into giants from eating radioactive grass area hunters excited by the big bounty were said to have shot. The Monster. BUNNIES is food for their hunting dogs. which ate the creatures and then develop fatal tumors? David Boxes Story is mentioned alongside these tales. Though he isn't named the booklet reads quote. There's one horrific story about an employee a WHO accidentally fell into a VAT filled with some undisclosed substance and totally dissolved and quote the substance wasn't undisclosed and and it's a little disconcerting that an attempt to document for an olds history describes David's death as an accident. Here's why that doesn't seem possible. Will David was assigned to plant. Eat that night. Not Plant six. Which House the south that no regular work should have been done in plant six until around eight the next ex morning so the idea that he was just wandering around there doesn't make sense second to reach the opening of this fat? You had to climb a ladder and as mentioned the opening was pretty small so even if he had somehow decided to say swing by toss in and Apple Corps for fun. There's no way he could have managed to climb atop the scalding that then accidentally fall into a hole that someone his size would have had to Shimmy into under the the best of circumstances. It's not logical no-one directly involved in the case ever thought it was a plausible theory. So we're going to set that notion aside Next let's talk about homicide. We all WanNa do the right thing to keep our bodies. He's healthy in the long run. I work out. I- moisturised morning and night and I try to eat right but for some reason. 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That's ten percent off during your first three months at ritual ruled dot com slash. Accused accused is sponsored by audible. You already know about audible. One of my favourite services on the planet. They offer an unmatched. Selection audiobooks original audio shows news comedy and more at audible. They believe that listening can help motivate inspire fire in form and help you be successful in twenty twenty and beyond so no matter what your resolution or goal is this year. You'll find the perfect audiobook at audible to motivate and inspire you whether it's getting physically fit financially fit or being a better parent leader or person it's all on audible for for instance right now. I'm listening to the minimalist way by Erica Lane. which is helping me declutter my life in twenty twenty? I'm sure you can use that as much as I can. Uh with audible. You can listen on any device anytime anywhere at home at the gym on your commute or just on the go you'll also enjoy easy. Exchanges Ages for any audiobook. You don't love and audiobook library you keep forever even if you cancel. Start listening with a thirty day. Audible trial choose one audiobook and to audible originals absolutely free visit audible dot com slash accused or text accused. ACC U. S. E. D. Two five hundred five hundred that's audible dot com slash accused or text accused to five hundred five hundred and now back to I story when Victor Corelli told unsolved mysteries that no one ever gave us any indication or reason to believe the foul play may have occurred. I can't help but think maybe that's because you never asked. David's family developed the notion that he might have been thwarted whistleblower in direct response to the damaging news that surfaced about fornell just months later the whistle blower theory was the focus of the unsolved mysteries program him and it was without question journalists. DC Kohl's belief. We'll talk about that theory a bit because if nothing else. The timing is indeed interesting but before we go there we wanna travel a few paths. That are a bit more common in murder investigations to do that. Let's walk through David Slash shift as thoroughly as we can using witness statements and police notes. Harry easterling wasn't supposed to be the driver on David's last shift but it so happened happened that he wanted to check out a house that was for sale in nearby. Ross Ohio Harry said that he called David around ten PM and asked if he could drive instead so that he could take a detour on the way home to meet the real estate agent. David said sure no problem. The two men met as usual about fifty minutes after that phone. Phone call at the Sharonville White Castle which is still there by the way and still awake castle then. David ditched his car and road in with Harry the two made small Talk David prattled about the weather and asked if Harry had seen anything on. TV A security guard at the exterior gate of Fernald did the the obligatory ID check and let them in. This was about eleven twenty five pm or thirty five minutes before the start of their shifts. Harry and David went went into a locker room to change. Workers never were their street clothes into the actual workspace. Instead they changed into for gnawed provided. coveralls else David left his shirt and Jean shorts in his personal locker and he inherited headed to plant for which was where they started each shift. Because that's where the time time clock was located for use time cards that you would slide into a physical clock to punch them in and out after they punched in. They walked to plant twelve to get there assignments for the night. Their supervisor was a man named Charlie. Schaus Schaus gave them to radio to stay in communication throughout their chefs chiefs. He sent Harry to plan for. Harry wasn't sure to what plant David was assigned but Schaus told police he sent David I to plant one to replace above after that job was done. He sent David to plant eight to replace another valve. Some gaskets and piece of copper tubing on a pump greg. Skinner was one of the plant eight workers. He told police in Nineteen eighty-four that he saw David working there between three and four. Am David Finish that job. Then according to skinner was asked to come back and fix something else in the building he said he'd do it before the end of his shift but never did and another coworker on third shift. That night was a man named Melvin. Kearns he was pretty new having worked there some forty five days and like everyone else he says. David was not a very talkative individual. Not In an unpleasant way cards told us he remembers seeing David Blue. Pipe fitters pickup truck. Shortly before the middle of the shift it stood out to him. He says because Schaus was in the truck as well and he and David were having in a conversation with the windows rolled up. kearns was chatting with a millwright nicknamed buzzsaw. He doesn't remember the man's real name and made light of the Seam mm-hmm and I made mention the buzzsaw said look we worked with Parliament or G and they're always raising hell by how much fuel we use. They're sitting in there. Yeah just run the air conditioner assault on Mesas. Ain't air conditioner in that truck. The how the hell of a sitting there you use them through the windshield and you can see that they were talkin angry with each other or anything of that nature. Just talk it. Struck kearns is odd. That David Schaus opted to talk with the windows rolled up on a sticky June night side. Note I checked the ALMANAC and and the temperature that day reached about ninety two degrees with a do point of sixty six fifty five to sixty is considered noticeably. Humid above sixty sixty five means. It's downright muggy by Xiao says account. This pickup truck conversation never happened or at least he didn't tell police about it if if it did Charleston easterling both say that after assignments were distributed. Neither saw David again until lunch. Break it for. AM The workers. I had to go through a shower and change clothes before entering the eating area. The men's account of David's behavior at lunch differs a bit. I find the discrepancies pretty interesting. Because their descriptions of David's actions are almost identical but their interpretations of those actions are very different. It's sort of like when you get in a fight with your significant other and you're accused of having a tone you yourself didn't hear easterling said that David was quiet but then so were the other two to he said David Eight. Two sandwiches complained about not having an air conditioner at his house and said he was tired because the heat made it tougher to sleep the night night before beyond that there was no conversation Shao said David was quiet and in fact seemed downright despondent and had had seemed that way for several days. The common struck me as odd because this shift was David's first since his weekend. But but maybe Schaus meant that David had seemed despondent respondent for several prior shifts rather than days shall said he had tried to banter at lunch. But David wasn't responsive Schaus told a police quote. I tried to get a joke going and get some conversation stirred up but it didn't work and he only said a couple of words during the time he was there and quote Schaus agreed with Harry that David Eight two sandwiches and also something called a lunch cake. While Harry said to sandwiches wasn't unusual for David shall said he usually only one sandwich. He described the meal as much bigger than usual after David quietly ate his lunch. Harry said he walked out of the break room without saying goodbye. A move which he again said was typical show said David usually left with the other two so him leaving wordlessly alone own struck him as odd after lunch. Harry found David waiting for him in the locker room area again. David had already dressed for work and he waited for Harry to do the same. The two road in a golf cart together back to plant for where they clocked back in at four forty six then. They parted ways again. Harry drove a car to plant for David hopped into blue pickup truck assigned to pipe fitters and headed for his own assignment. That's the last time Harry saw David. David Karnes the other pipe fitter remember seeing David walking toward plant for which was the maintenance shop. I walked up to the door for the maintenance shop and it was extremely foggy for all sits in the valley and and it was just the humidity and the heat and everything. The fog was like unbelievable and I thought gave us well now. If you need help us I'm here. He's all okay no problem and he headed off the plan for well. He disappeared into the fog forehead. A security fence around it. I heard the gate open and close and then in I heard the door to The UHF area which was planned for. I heard it slam so I know he got into the building. Shos told police. He ran into David inside that building at about five. Fifteen am near the freight elevator show said the two men chatted for about ten minutes is or more accurately purchase. Houses account shall try to get David to open up for ten minutes and David didn't respond after the failed attempt at a chat. Get the men parted ways and Charlie said David headed off to do some more work in planet. That was the last time anyone said they saw David. Both not sterling and Kearns said they heard Schaus calling for David on the radio sometime well after lunch and over the radio. Sr hearing aid supervisor calling for him. I answered him said. Hey if you need if you yeah. Pipe fitter some some bell. He wanted date. Okay well he just kept on calling. They call. which was very unusual? Time missus is around quarter to six six thirty somewhere in that area and we were all getting raid The head out they shift was coming in. They wasn't around. Well they even the other millwright rideshare and we've got down to the the shower. Aw Room or by got showers and everything we were headed out the way and one mill right was sitting there at the guard shack and he asked me. Have you seen scene. Dave know why well generally meets me down here to know and it was a Friday right so the only thing we were thinking about getting the hell out of there so I I left him and it was like be honest with everybody. Thought that David going somewhere found the little corner fills sleep was basically with all the guys and the thought show's called for David on the radio he didn't mention it to police. In fact he said he checked planted and eight around seven thirty a M which was close to quitting time. David had finished his work there. He said then he noticed implant for that. David had clocked out. Nothing seemed Amiss. SOC else was never alarmed. He simply went home. It turned out though that the clock punch was a friendly gesture gone wrong. easterling eventually copped to punching David's card. For him he said they would do it as a favor for each other from time to time to keep one of them from having go all the way back to plant for chips end after Harry Punch David out. He waited briefly for him at his car. His plan was to drive by that. Ross is home for sale. And then take David to his car. White Castle David didn't show and Harry got worried about missing his window so he wrote David a note saying he'd background nine. AM in reality. He actually made it back closer to nine twenty. He asked around David but no one had seen him. easterling waited until about nine forty-five before giving up. He wrote David a second note apologizing for ditching him and then drove home. He called several times before the next day as usual. meet up but David never answered and when Harry reached the White Castle. His friend's car was exactly where they'd left it the night before David was officially missing. So you just finished watching. Netflix flicked series or film like wild wild country or the staircase. And now that it's over. You can't stop thinking about the show. You need more of this story. Well good good news. Now there's a podcast for that you can't make this up is a podcast from net flicks that covers all their content related to true crime colts and conspiracy theories each episode of. You can't make this up. Takes a look behind the scenes of a Netflix documentary series or film featuring conversation between podcasters journalists comedians. The ends and the people who made it they'll give an exclusive look inside their process explore stories. They left out. Answer your burning questions and more. You can't make this up. covers the net flicks shows. Everyone's talking about including recently extremely wicked shockingly evil and vile and unbelievable. The podcast also covers things from their back catalogue along like making a murderer an evil genius. The crazy account of a pizza delivery man who robbed a bank with a bomb around his neck. If it's a true story that sounds too crazy Roese to be real. You can hear all about it on. You can't make this up. You can't make this up is available on Apple Stitcher spotify or your preferred podcast destination nation. Go listen subscribe and review. You can't make this up now. If David had died under mysterious circumstances in his home rather than at work at that good money the last people to have seen him alive would have each been thoroughly interviewed. People would have been asked if he had any enemies or for anyone who might want him gone. No one asked in this case though. Schaus his supervisor happened to volunteer. Some pretty compelling info will impact Pakis carefully for starters. It helps to know that David's family considered him kind of a hard liner. When it came to following rules he was a hardworking man and the guy smoked two packs a day and drink some thirty cups of coffee every day? You heard that right thirty cracked. I honestly don't know how it's possible. Despite those habits he despised drugs harder than the nicotine. He didn't drink alcohol and his work ethic was beyond reproach his daughter. Casey box drake says like I said my dad was a stickler for the rules a lot like you know. That's where I get a lot of it from people who are going to pitch at work work when I come to work to go home do it do it right. Have some you know. But he was stickler for the rules. You know if there was a rule in place follow it shows told police that David in recent weeks had been getting fed up with co workers sleeping on the job. The plant is huge in sprawling in there were plenty of nooks and crannies in which workers could tuck away and catch an APP. That's why Kearns said workers at first assume David was curled up sleeping somewhere. Xiao said David complain about a couple of specific workers and armed with that Info. Schaus went out one day and indeed caught a workers sleeping on the job. The guy's name was Ernie Gibson. He was suspended for two weeks for his transgression. It just so happened that it was during his suspension that David disappeared at a tough time finding Gibson at first because his name was misspelled in every one of the police documents that mentions agents him. The file names him E. R. N. E. Gibson with the be but after doing some cross referencing between a past address and end auditor's website. I realized it's E. A. R. N. I. E. Gibson with a P. shows described him as a troublemaker. He was about five foot nine with red hair and red mustache and goatee and he had a reddish freckled complexion in nineteen eighty-four. He would have been thirty three years old old. I WANNA give police credit here. An officer did swing by Ernie Gibson's house. A fernald employee named Dan. Gilbert told Schaus who win turn told Hamilton County Detective Robert Wessler that he thought he saw Ernie Gibson's motorcycle in the parking lot. At twelve. Thirty a M. The morning David but disappeared. which would be I'd since Gibson was suspended at that time? The Bike Don Gilbert described was black with Brown saddlebags Sawn June twenty-sixth Nineteen eighty-four Wessler and a sergeant pulled up to Gibson's address and Ross Ohio. He was with buddy named Mike. Reiss who happened to be another other. Pipe Fitter at Fernald in his memo describing this visit detective Wessler said he asked Gibson when he was last at Fernald Gibson said he went back. June June twenty first after David tied to pick up his paycheck but before that his last shift was June fourteenth the day he got suspended for sleeping on the job. The cops asked Gibson if you had a motorcycle so gibson brought them to a dusty heap of a Harley Davidson and said it had been broken down since late nineteen eighty three. The bike was dark red instead of black and it was missing. CARBURETOR Wessler wrote quote. It appears it hasn't moved in quite a long time so this could not have been the motorcycle seen by Mr Gilbert and quote as they were talking to Gipson another for an old employee named Stan Willis pulled hold on a motorcycle. It was black. With Brown saddlebags Willis had red hair a red mustache and goatee and a reddish freckled complexion in west slur wrote Willis look like he could have been Gibson's. Twin Brother Willis was a pipe fitter who worked first shift and he said yes. I drive my bike to work. He also said another employee named William Watson worked second shift and also wrote a Harley Davidson wessler s Gibson. If he ever rode someone else's bike aac to Fernald Gibson said no and Wessler went on his way he wrote in his report quote. At this point there is no basis to the allegation that Mr Gibson Sinn was at Fernald on the nineteenth with his motorcycle and quote it was a good step to ask whether Gibson was at the plant that day but with the benefit of thirty five years hindsight it would have been helpful if the detectives had asked any deeper questions like. Did you know David was the employees who got you suspended suspended. Had He ever confronted you personally about sleeping on the job. Did you ever hear anyone else complaining about him. It would have been nice to if they could. What if determined? WHO's motorcycled on Gilbert did? See if it belonged to stand Willis Gibson supposed d'appel Ganger and obviously his friend. What was it doing there around twelve thirty? AM when his shift ended around four PM. If it belonged to the other hog owner William Watson the timing would be less odd but but surely it couldn't have been too taxing to just find out who's motorcycle stood out to an employee enough that he reported seeing it. I tried to reach her any Gipson to ask a few questions. I thought I found him through arrest records and Hamilton County but while the names matched including the middle initial. I realized that the one I'm looking for has a son by the same name. The former owner of the address wessler visited was born in Nineteen fifty one and I found that earning Gibson in Clay County Florida. I tried several phone numbers but never got an answer. I wrote him a letter and left messages with two ex wives. One of the ex wives as did return my call and said she wanted to help me but she didn't remember much about that time period. That's as close as I've gotten to Gipson Schaus. It called Gibson a troublemaker. And it seems he did get in plenty of trouble with the law over the years aside from nearly a dozen traffic citations he. He was convicted on drug possession. Charges in two thousand and three before that he was arrested on Christmas Eve nineteen ninety nine for aggravated assault with a deadly weapon. I've been a felony. It appears the charge was lessened to two misdemeanors battery and improper exhibition of a dangerous weapon. Gibson pleaded no contest on both and was found guilty of the weapons charge. I'd love to find Stan Willis his look alike but that's an awfully common name. I found found his son who said he would pass along. My number but Willis hasn't called. It's worth noting. Though that there apparently was such a sense of camaraderie among at least some some of the Fernald employees that they hung out together even during their off hours. David didn't seem to be part of a tight. Knit group at for an old. But it's clear some of the workers were there was another tip that police didn't really pursue in our reporting. We've been told by several former for an old employees that some some workers were selling drugs from the property. At first I thought police only heard about this drug rumor after the unsolved mysteries episode aired. But when I went through the police lease file for probably the fourth time. I noticed a handwritten note. I'd miss before a warning. The language is offensive. But this is what it said. Quote rumor now is box was going to building six to find a place to sleep and came upon something he wasn't supposed to see but nobody has theorized what it could have been that he stumbled upon a drug deal slash Pinkos or what had to be KGB because all employees were accounted for. Maybe some anti anti-nuke Pinko longhaired Hippie Faggot. CHILD MOLESTING THUMB SUCKING ASK kissing campaign sign stealing overpass spray painting Bull Dyke. Did it and quote. I think it's safe to say. Police did not put much stock into the drug deal. Theory police did hear about this theory. New after after unsolved mysteries in one of the most useless ways possible an anonymous letter purporting to be from a former coworker of David's the author wrote wrote that they weren't sure they'd have the gumption to mail the letter once it was written and they couldn't sign it or their lives would be ruined the letter rambles a bit as type typed. Anonymous letters tend to do but it immediately delved into allegations of illegal drug. Use It for an old. By the time we got a copy of that letter in two two thousand eighteen. We'd already heard about drugs and a few of our interviews had a lot of drug activity inside. This is Claire Merchant. Who was interviewed by accused accused Mark Rosenberg? Clare was one of the few women employees for knol eighties. We had some people that were on. The weakling randoms every week because they had had been taught taking drugs weekly random scrapped. They called it a random test for urinalysis over over over and it was called the weekly ran and that was the guys that were normally. They had fought and part of their agreement with the Union. Union and company was that they had to go every week to keep their jobs. The anonymous letters sent to unsolved mysteries. Claimed that drug use was rampant in part because once people realized the job wasn't as safe as they'd been told they turned to substances to cope. We had the role of caring. There were people on some other drugs that I wasn't sure what wasn't thought was one of them but I understood that I had a supervisor in plant and water treatment plant that he not clear air worked implants six. She didn't know David personally but his death stuck with her. I often wonder maybe he can't across something by accident. Inspect aside from that vulgar. It must have been the KGB note. The only drug mentioned in memos and reports from the eighties is trillion. The Drug David had been prescribed for his mental health but after the unsolved mysteries episode detectives did actually reach out to a few people to follow up on the tips provided. In fact. Melvin Kearns the other pipe fitter you heard in this episode was interviewed for the first time in Nineteen nineteen ninety four. Even though current says he had been working the night David disappeared and was one of the last people to reportedly see David Alive. He says he wasn't as an interviewed in. One thousand nine hundred four and the police file backs him up. The file in fact has a list of third shift for employees to contact but the list justice dated June twelfth. Not you nineteenth. David box didn't even work June twelfth because his car had broken down in a neighbor drove him to the shop to get it fixed. Melvin Kearns is on the list either. I'm not sure why a full list of employees from the actual night of the disappearance isn't in the file. Melvin for the record is in the not suicide camp. A lot of people said well he jumped in there. He committed suicide no no he did not because the temperature record showed that something was lowered into took like from a crane will determine it to talk about whether David could have been lowered in by a crane. Here's the setup of the salt that it had that heavy heavy steel lid on top that covered most but not all of its opening that twenty two by nine inch hole remained before uranium ingots could be lowered lowered into the slurry that live had to come off via crane stationed implant six. You couldn't just come in and swing this crane around whichever way. Oh you wanted. It was a stationary piece of equipment that followed a prescribed path. A Hook attached the crane would latch onto a loop in the center of the Steel Lid. Did the crane would pull the LID straight up by that loop and then would move off to the side. It's sort of followed in upside down L. Pattern elder L. D. Rucci said the crane couldn't have been used to lower David into the vet because once the lid was attached to the hook. It didn't come off until it was replaced on top of that They couldn't just set the LID on the ground and attached something else to that Hook and then reattached the lid. The prescribe path made that impossible. He said Current seem to think that there was other more portable equipment on site that might have been used so asked all Ritchie. What about a piece of equipment? Hoping Eh end though Lucia anything near I don't know I don't know if it could have been I. I don't think so. But the current suspicions are fueled by a finding we haven't yet covered when investigators and Fernald employees. chiseled sold through the solidified slurry after it had cooled. They found one item. That didn't appear to belong to David. Depending on whom you ask that item is is massively important or completely irrelevant. And there's no in between the item was described and unsolved mysteries as the piece of stainless endless steel wire that was looped together and three oddly connecting circles police in eighty four took note of this foreign object and asked employs stories about it at first no one could really explain it then. Some engineers stepped forward and said Oh yeah on May second about six weeks weeks before David disappeared. One of our guys ran an experiment on an ingot which you lowered into the furnace with a thermo coupler wire twisted into loops. The engineer lost the INGOT and the wire in the furnace. He eventually recovered the Ingot but never found the thin wire and because the material was stainless steel. It didn't melt detective. Robert wessler wrote in one report quote. It appears that this is the wire and that's how it did get into the furnace and quote wrote an NL. Oh worker provided police with a memo explaining the experiment the memo signed by Jay Haas donor said it was a heat treat test. I involving an eleven inch diameter ingot one or two sections of twisted baling wire each section measuring about thirty six inches in length and in one or two sections of a thermo coupler length undefined. Maybe that's just what it was case closed. But this is a case that sparked art countless conspiracy theories over the years and a stray piece of wire near Deadman's remains strike some suspicious they had discovered that was the stainless steel wire that we used all over the place and it was looped like it was re looped around the wrist and then it had a tall was cramped in other words. Someone wrapped wires around his wrist in order to pick him up with the hydraulic lifts and everything. Now when I went over over to get Dave's tools and his toolbox from plant for. He had a role that wire on his toe box. We didn't find any of that wire and plant six another. It wasn't something that was just commonly laid around the maintenance in an skies would have it and have it on their toolbox and it went where they went the. What was the wire used for by the mechanics sameness dealer oh for everything from pipe? Insulation pipes together. The it was kind of like the duct tape. What you use duct tape where he said the stuff was commonly we used? But you wouldn't just find it lying around. Its odd shape to him. Look like something that could have been looped around to Hook on one end and say David's hands on another like I said the. Im stood about five foot high but the salt was only made a four foot level. Well they was lower. Dan and his legs had to burn off and then the rest of them went in. And that's what the temperature recorder recorded. That's why you think the two drops Okay David Day Day. A former union leader interviewed by unsolved. Mysteries told that program the same thing back in one thousand nine hundred four. This probably lowered into the furnace. That he was is probably murdered. I can't think of any other way that could happen. I don't believe that could have been suicide or an accident. Maybe I'll do RUCCI is right. And there's no way that this could have happened but I'm stumped as to why he dismissed the insistence of longtime for an all workers who said they not only thought it was doable. But they're sure that it happened. Not only that but several told us there certain about more than the what three even sure about the WHO. This is Kearns when I called them to set up our in person interview all right. Well who was the person who told him that. Apparently nobody's got the gumption to stand up thing. Sammy thing I followed up with Kearns on that statement later. Peter and his answer was a little guarded so I need to actually look into this person. What's this person's name? I can take take all the stuff off. I need to be able to drop a camera. Yeah that's fine and recording next time on accused the always worth talk talk. It doesn't hurt you any interviews or we interview somebody if you have new information supervisor. One day box veered. Hey I'm amber I'm a reporter with the choir. I've been trying to reach Charlie shout to bench the season go to www dot wondering dot com slash plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM slash P L U S to support the creators of accused directly go to our patron rampage. Where donors get bonus content dander early episodes that's at Patriot dot com slash accused? This is a special project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA essays today network narrated by Amber Hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil Diddy in an edited by Amy Wilson Intern Mark Rosenberg provided additional. No research music was composed by enter Higley to look at case documents photos videos and more visit accused podcast dot com as noted. Some audio co comes from a living history projects in the Fennell community lands. Transcript to those interviews are available at Community Alliance Dot Org

Harry Punch David David box Schaus Schaus Melvin Kearns supervisor Fernald David Hood Ross Ohio Harry David Karnes David Son David Slash Harry easterling David Boxes David Finish David Day David Blue assault Charlie Peter Rucci E. A. R. N. I. E. Gibson
Chapter 7: A variance in views

Accused

40:15 min | 11 months ago

Chapter 7: A variance in views

"Previously on accused but I think he would just go into that colonel all by himself. No one on ever gave us any indication or reason to believe that foul play may have occurred a lot of people's well. He jumped in there. He committed suicide. No no he was probably lowered into the furnace that he was probably murdered so I need to actually look into this person. What's this person's name? I can take all the stuff off. I need to be able to drop the camera. Recording Amber Hunt Hunt and this is accused mysterious death. That baby box reporting any cold case is tough but this this one has presented some unique challenges for starters. Everyone sick which has made setting up interviews difficult hair. easterling was undergoing undergoing dialysis three times a week Mel kearns brought to cardiac support dog to our interview. Two unrelated people won an employee when the widow Adowa a former employee had dementia. It's not surprising. Maybe when you remember that David box disappeared thirty five years ago and the people who worked alongside him were at least in their thirties back then not to mention exposed for years to cancer causing elements but the most unnerving moment. Oh Mint involved a man whose father had been David Supervisor. This man named Charles Schaus after his dad though the younger Schaus went by Middle Name. Michael seemed happy to set up an interview. I called him. He even volunteered some info before I said I was calling about a death at the plant adviser when days box disappeared appeared we set up an in person interview at his home for the following week. My producer engineer and I showed up at the designated time but Michael's wife said he had forgotten forgotten about our appointment and would have to reschedule. He never returned the handful of phone messages. I had left or emails I'd send and then I learned that there was a reason on June fourth. Two Thousand Nineteen Charles. Michael Schaus died by suicide if I were DC coal this would be a another piece is to the conspiracy puzzle but no. I don't think that I've learned from a relative that Michael himself. A former for an auld employees had endured red chronic pain for years. I've no reason to think the timing of his suicide had anything to do with the timing of our interview. What all this does mean gene? Is that the window to officially reexamine this case is rapidly narrowing so we feel a special sense of urgency to lay out what we've uncovered So you just finished watching Netflix series or film like wild wild country or the staircase. And now that it's over you can't stop thinking about the show. You need more of this story. Well good news now. There's a podcast for that. You can't make this up is a podcast from Netflix. That covers all their content related to true crime cults and conspiracy theories each episode of. You can't make this up. Takes a look behind the scenes of a Netflix documentary Henry series or film featuring conversation between podcasters journalists comedians and the people who made it they'll give an exclusive look inside their process explore stories. They left out. Answer your burning questions and more. You can't make this up. covers the net flicks shows. Everyone's talking about including recently extremely wicked shockingly evil and vile and unbelievable. The podcast also covers things from their back catalogue like making a murderer an evil genius. The crazy account of a pizza delivery man Dan who robbed a bank with a bomb around his neck. If it's a true story that sounds too crazy to be real. You can hear all about it on. You can't make this up. You can't make this. This up is available on Apple. Stitcher spotify or your preferred podcast destination. Go listen subscribe and review. You can't make this up now. Whoever wrote the anonymous twelve page letter to David boxes daughter? After the story of her father's death appeared on unsolved. Mysteries had something in common. I'm in with investigative reporter DC coal. They both seem to believe that absolutely everyone who could be a part of a cover up was part of a cover up. The letter describes falled workers as a family it specifies that the Department of Energy officials and managers in general were not part. Did this family rather it was a quote close knit group of workers who would do anything from one another and quote. Apparently that includes murder murder. The letter states quote your father was aware of the intolerable drug problem along with the failure of doe and low to protect the workers environment environment and neighbors and quote. Those were the two distinct motives. The letter writer provided for murder that David was anti-drug and had perhaps caught hot someone using on site and also that he had tried to quit the night he died because no one would listen to him about lack safety conditions and someone decided to silence is complaints once and for all eventually Casey Box Drake David's daughter came to believe that DC. Cole wrote this letter himself. She accused accused him of as much in a terse Lee worded email she wrote during their late nineteen nineties falling out Cole denied it. I tried to match up writing styles styles between the type letter and Kohl's book the letter writer mistakenly uses conscious for conscience for example. But I couldn't find much overlap unless someone steps forward. I don't see how we'll ever know the author. The allegations in the letter are worth examining though even if they're anonymous because those those allegations miracles and Kohl's book if you'll remember is housed in the library of Congress it's as close to an on the record rebuttal to police suicide theory as we've got so here it goes both coal in the letter writer. Find it significant that David's last shift was largely spent inside implant. Eight as cold told unsolved mysteries eight had released four times for radioactive contaminants into the environment than any other plant complaint site. According to the Department of Energy Plant Eight was a scrap recovery. Plant the gist is at the rest of the buildings. Processed and refined mined shaped uranium and all of the leftovers from those buildings were shipped to plant eight tiny bits of uranium. were salvaged from waste streams and recycled In short uranium was too valuable to squander and plant eight is where all the waste from. The rest of the buildings went so that any uranium residue could be collected and reused the letter writer. Who seems to have been familiar enough with the plant to no precise directions to things like the men's locker room Alleges that David was frustrated by the conditions implanted. David and other workers knew it to be particularly unsafe. The letter states it continues quote. He was tired of reporting the repair of items. That couldn't be repaired. He was tired of being threatened in order that secrecy would be insured and he was tired of working at a government facility that operated on the basis of lies theft of taxpayer money's and major cover-ups that included several federal the agencies that ranged as far as the presidency and quote. It's a bold claim. One that Cole cosigns in his book we haven't found found much evidence that David was quite this upset about the safety issues that work though he might have been but if so he didn't mention it to his ex wife or his children mm-hmm but then again he wasn't supposed to talk to them about his job at all. There are a few circumstantial tidbits to point to whistle blowing. At least is being possible. I here's Harry easterling. In one thousand nine hundred four day was a fairly quiet but if you worked on a job and say it was high radiation levels. Dave would tell you you know that particular dust collector is fairly radioactive so watch yourself or that pomp has a certain kind of acid in it so be careful when you work on it also when the police file. There's notation that David in recent months had been treated for a few work injuries most recently he saw Dr Doctrine February nineteen eighty-four for burn on the right side of his neck. A month earlier he was treated for esteem. Burn on his right wrist and thumb. Maybe be these are nothing but then again when someone starts getting hurt they might start opening their mouths more. Finally David's Kids told us that their dad was was a stickler for the rules and his supervisor. Charlie Schaus told police that David spoke up about co worker sleeping on the job so maybe it stands to the reason that he'd be willing to put his neck out about the plan safety issues. I'm comfortable David hadn't been compiling documentation at home because his ex wife Carlene Lien was the first to gain access after his disappearance in she found nothing of the sort she noticed the stocked fridge in new cartons of cigarettes. But but no Manila folders full of Silkwood style evidence Carleen. David's brother Peter and the older kids took turn staying in David's house in the days after after he banished in hopes of being there. If you wandered in police came in and searched at some point but the family had been there I ask ask people with Fernald connections about David box and you get as many culprit. Combinations is a game of Clue Mel kearns named one when the cameras weren't rolling some former employees mentioned that same person to well others pointed to someone else entirely. We don't let ourselves get touched any specific theory because we don't want to be hypocrites. We WanNA keep our minds open rather than subject this case to another round of confirmation bias but that other people have been much less concerned about that take coal for example in his book he suggested that each of the following people should have been more thoroughly. Investigated Carpool by Harry Easterling. Supervisor Charlie Shows Fellow Pipe Fitter Mel Kearns and Santa Claus await the strike that last one the letter writer. Also points to easterling and Schaus Kearns didn't make the cut the finger pointing at Harry seems a bit odd and and I know he was aware that there had been some speculation about him in fact when I called him his wife answered and was a bit leery about putting him on the phone own. I remember hearing a comet back When this all happened that the kids and made a comment about my husband being involved? Wow so I didn't know why you know you were trying to find him for the record. I think she's conflating. The kids in coal it's the latter who opined in Harry's involvement. The kids don't rule them out but only because they don't feel they should rule anyone out the letter. Writers logic for suspecting Harry was hard to follow but it went something like this. Harry got too worried too quickly. When David didn't show up to meet at White Castle so the worry must have been an act worked? I'm not sure I agree. Harry didn't panic when David failed to show up for the drive back to his car after his shift. He told police that he figure David had either snared some overtime and forgotten to tell him or he'd sneaked off somewhere to take a nap. He tried to get David on the phone the next day before their subsequent. It's a quick shift and David never answered so by the time hairy found David's car parked in the same spot at White Castle. It's hood stole L. Cold. He had reason to start worrying. His Buddy hadn't surfaced from women twelve hours at that point the letter writer in DC. Coal both both pointed to Harry to Kohl's credit. He didn't make that a secret. The Guy was bold if nothing else. Here's Harry speaking in late October. When I reached start with some follow up questions or thing that bothered me was that loud mouth reporter guy? Yeah Yeah what. What about him was bothersome? Besides the loudmouth part was a pain in the book did he ever accused you. Oh that didn't sit well with Harry who for the record told me he had nothing to do with David. Disappearance Kearns was never Even mentioned by name in the initial police investigation. So I'm not sure why Cole latched onto him. As someone worth considering kearns over the years has face some legal financial troubles but never anything felonious that I could find the letter. Writer says security personnel saw David and Schaus US chatting in the blue pickup truck assigned to pipe fitters but it fails to mentioned that kearns reportedly saw same. He told us that back in February. Twenty nineteen when we interviewed him and he had told DC coal that nearly thirty years prior. Here's a passage from Kohl's book that begins with a quote from Kearns. I was the last person who saw day box alive and I know who killed him. Kearns immediately said when contacted by telephone. I imagine this is true. Because does he did the same with me. It appears Cole got suspicious. After kearns said that he had worked inside plants. Six the night of David Slash shift plant six six was supposedly abandoned because the salt. That didn't run at night. That's true but kearns. Being a fellow fixed guy. He supposedly was briefly implant and six to fix a drinking fountain coal rates that he confronted supervisor. Schaus and said Shao said lied about plant six being empty all night Cole writes that shows became visibly shaken during the exchange quote. Yes we were working inside. Plant six on the cooling system earlier that night and quote wrote Schaus replied before he started freaking himself out. That's a passage from Kohl's book. I don't know what that means. Cold decided he did know however any wrote that the significance of Schaus lying is that now he and easterling and Kearns can be placed at the scene of the crime. Get it it's a conspiracy after colle quote Unquote Confronted Schaus. He confronted Kearns and accused him of lying to Karston. Like this Cole wrote and I said no I know for Damn Cher was alone implant. Six every it's to me like kearns didn't like being called a liar and he was maybe raising his voice a tad Ed because of it but coal was certain in his appraisal he wrote at this point one must remember to never show any sign of fear to such people especially when they are on the verge of losing self control showing vicious dogs. Fear will only get you bit. I can't say I've ever viewed sources. This is as vicious dogs. I admit I viewed some journalists that way from time to time but not sources I wonder what Cole would think if you knew this little tidbit did I learn from the case file. When FERNALD officials called police to report a missing person the first call came from the security office as you might expect but the second call came from the legal department? Excuse the break but I want to tell. Oh you about another podcast you might like. 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That's fifty dollars off at Bollandbranch Dot Com Promo Code. Accused used spelled B. O. L. L. Andbranch dot com code accused and now back to our story. I found nothing. That actually indicates anyone was implant six besides kearns and he wasn't there toward the shifts end around four forty five am After the lunch break. He said he spotted David. Once again talking to Schaus this time near plant for the time clock was to brief asides. It's Cole accused another person of lying. According to his book that's detective Pedo. RUCCI coal quote sell the Rucci as saying the temperature drop. Singular singular not plural only lasted a minute or so. When the temperature read outs and police zone notes actually show two drops spanning about fifteen minutes? Cole does not consider this discrepancy of faulty memory or innocent misstatement he sees it as Ritchie changing his story and therefore being part of the cover up. It doesn't look like elder Ruchir as colleagues liked being called a liar though one of them supposedly told. Cole don't fuck with us. The second aside is about a handwritten note in the police file. That's never mentioned elsewhere. The note is signed by Charles Schaus. Who wrote quote? I received phone call at eight thirty eight PM on six twenty eighty four. That stated bastard you had better learn that the union runs the company or you or your your wife will have an accident and quote. The caller then hung up. A notation indicates Xiao Scott. This call at home not at work. I have no idea if the phone call was connected to David's disappearance but it seems noteworthy that it happen during David's I missed shift and it's in the file concerning disappearance. Here's some more about Schaus. He placed himself with David about the same time. Kearns says he saw them together. In fact you might remember from last episode. That Schaus told police that he stood near a freight elevator trying to get David to open up to him and tell him way seems so down and might not be fair air but something about this bugs me. Ten minutes is a long time to talk to someone who supposedly is responding. Anyone who's been depressed. I or even just blew surely knows what it feels like ten. Not WanNa talk about it and most probably have had a friend or to try a bit too hard to pry imagine. Being on the receiving end of this for ten full minutes would feel like an eternity. There are a few other things. Shout all said that. I'd really like to clarify as well in trial to have. David declared dead. He testified that he and Harry had a conversation during lunch. About out. How Morose David seemed the scene? He painted was a little odd in fact because it sounded like David was right there in the room and Schaus in Harry Harry. We're talking about him. As though we weren't shows testified that the only lunch conversation was about David's obvious. Depression the thing is that doesn't line up with the transcripts of Harry's nineteen eighty-four police interviews in fact he said the opposite detective. Henry Schaefer asked Harry But there was no anything in particular any type of conversation to indicate that maybe he was. You know depressed or anything of that. Nature Harry Harry replied no in the trial I referenced. Cincinnati lawyer Steven Martin who represented. David's family asked Charles Schaus about the lunch break he. He Harry and David took together around. Four am Martin specifically wanted to know what the trio talked about over the break if anything Charles replied lied. Actually David Box. He said he asked Harry. If he noticed anything concerning about David's behaviour quote he indicated to me. Dave box had been acting funny for a couple of weeks. And he stated that Dave was getting worse and quote. Harry didn't testify testify at the trial where she recounted this conversation so he wasn't asked to confirm or deny that it happened in fact despite shows having never mentioned mentioned this conversation himself until that trial. no-one there challenged him once he said what he said. Under oath it was accepted as straight up. Fact Act both the defense and the plaintiffs called on experts to argue over whether David was suicidal and both were asked about the two co workers who said he was despondent. When in fact there was only one only shows? It's possible that Xiao simply misremembered things and somehow got it in his head had that Harry backed his despondent diagnosis for David. People's memories are awful. Casey got the year wrong. Her Dad died memories. Rays are notoriously unreliable. So it's fair to wonder if sh- houses simply failed him to find out. I needed to ask him so I started started calling and calling and calling at the tone. Please record your message when you one time I got a call back from one of his is numbers but the line disconnected before I entered it and left a message fairly recently Returning a call. I had gotten from this number and other time. I thought they'd reached him on the phone. Finding People's phone numbers is as much luck as it is. No how and I was wondering if I could Set up a time to talk with you because I understand you were a manager there for awhile now. Father was a major Bill Ryan maintenance there oh you were an. I thought you were a supervisor. No not not there. I wasn't my dad was. Oh you're you're the young way. Okay are you okay. Dad was dad supervisor when Dave box disappeared. Yes yeah that's actually part of What I've been looking at sometimes when you're looking for a phone oh number you find a relatives number instead? That's what happened here. The younger Schaus is also Charles. Though he goes by Michael I was just as happy to find him him because as I said he also was a former Fernald employees. And I've been interviewing every former worker. I could find. It was a logical step to ask. Michael Shouts House to chat and I thought maybe it would be a way to get connected with his dad. I mean maybe. DC coal scared. The older Schaus off by calling him a liar thirty years ago. Maybe he'd be willing to talk someone who wants to find answers rather than pin blame all of this was for not of course as described bribed earlier in this episode the younger Schaus Mr Interview appointment and died in June. I sent condolences to his wife and gave the family some space for several months chiefs before I knew about the death I had already made. All those phone calls and sent letters to the elders shelves is home to rental property. He owns and two to ex wife of his starting in October. I began calling again in mid-november Amanda and I went to his house to knock on the door. It was important we we give him as clear an opportunity to talk to us as possible. Hi I'm amber I'm a reporter with the inquire I've been trying to reach Charlie Schaus For a story you bet. I'm putting together looking at for an old. He's in bad okay. I'll leave my number then. Okay it seems. He doesn't WanNA talk to us. I of course still like to ask about the statements that don't mind up for me but I don't know if I'll ever get the chance while Charlie Schaus hasn't responded Mathu my many attempts to reach him. Harry Sterling did and because Schaus had described a conversation that he supposedly had with Harry. I was able to ask Carrie if he remembered this conversation. So I I just WanNa make sure that I'm totally clear on this When you end Charlie Charlie had lunch did you? Did you guys talk about anything over the lunch break about where he was going on somewhere. I don't know if it were kings island or someplace that's with David. But did you talk to Charlie about anything conversation. Okay did do you ever feel at any point in the investigation. We did you ever tell anyone that you saw. David was depressed. Nope do you know that that. In some of the trials it is accepted as fact that you did think he was depressed. Hello Becky was Joyce Harry's wife was married to him back in Nineteen eighty-four and his talked with her husband at length about his memories of that day she knows the case as well or at least as well as a third party without access to transcripts and police memo's can she watched him get interviewed by unsolved mysteries and went Tennessee where the TV crew filmed a wonderfully cheesy reenactment of David's last moments. Harry had some health problems so joyce was on the phone call with us. Listen case brain fog made it tough to understand a question. My question about the lunchtime conversation seemed to confuse her things that they had conversation with Dave back sale while supposedly It actually looks like David might have even been in the room the way that Charlie Charlie describes it but but the gist is. Charlie testifies that hairy and he talked about how depressed David was during that last launch hair. Shaking said knows where he was and you never thought that. Based on the Times given by David's David's various co Workers Kearns wasn't the last person to see David Alive as he believes. Charles put himself with David at five. Fifteen am which is interesting interesting. That's the same time that the print out from plan six suggests David went into the vet and even weirder is that I found a notation in a police memo that stated. That clock was about ten minutes fast. which would mean that? David was implant six disintegrating in salt a few minutes servier then Xiao supposedly saw him near plan for something. There doesn't add up. It could be that clocks. Weren't seeing doors. Someone was in grade at estimating time but it occurred to me that usually when someone is placed near someone else at the time of their death the surviving person would generally be expected to to answer a few questions of the. Did you have any reason to cause them harm. Variety Schaus wasn't ask such questions. Schaus also told People Harry described David as despondent. When Harry didn't and show circle back to police to add something to his story that's never been reported before after his initial interview Schaus told investigators that he remembered an encounter with David early in the shift? That in hindsight bothered him. He said that soon after David arrived with Harry at Work Schaus arrived implant twelve where the employees always got their work assignments for the day. It was between Gene Twelve fifteen and twelve twenty show said but when shall showed up at plan twelve to hand out the assignments. David wasn't there shall testified quote and I asked Harry Eastern laying if he had seen Dave and he said no so I called him on the radio and he said he was south of plant. Five and quote. David had no the reason to be wandering and this was a facility that at least paid lip service to security social SAS David. What he was doing he said David replied that he was getting some fresh air? Show said he told David to sit tight and then hopped in this maintenance truck and drove out pick them up when shall spotted him. David was walking back from plant. Six Schaus in hindsight believe that David had meant to kill himself then around midnight and only got another chance after the lunch break. This description is countered a Harry statements though according to Harry he and David arrived to work together. Changed in the locker room together clocked together and planned for walked to plant twelve together and then awaited their assignments together. Here's me talking to Harry again. David leave you at any point during that period. I'm so when was the first time he was out of your facility. At that point. Remember do you would. It have been before or rafter. You guys got your assignments after so. You're pretty comfortable. That he was gone at some point before he was Handed an assignment where it is of course possible. That Harry's memory is faulty but Harry seemed fine telling me when he didn't remember something here. He is the first time we talked. We will have to forgive me because I can't remember several I. I understand no worries even even if you didn't have a medical issue this is a long time ago. I don't expect Pristine Tomy. It feels like yesterday excuses. Quick break the episode. You're listening to now was is released already on our patron page at Patriotair Dot com slash accused. You can get early ad free episodes there as well as bonus episodes behind the scenes peeks skunik sessions and even a brand new crime and journalism. podcast if you like what we do here consider joining us over there again for this content more supportive Porta set patriots dot com slash accused in two thousand eight. A former football star pulled off a robbery so daring and so strange range that it went viral worldwide. It was a perfect crime story. There's just one problem. It wasn't the real story of what happened. The sneak sneak is a new serialized. True crime podcast from four the wind and USA Today sports streaming only on one re plus subscribe at wondering Dot Com Slash P L. U. S.. And now back to our story if feels worth mentioning that after the unsolved mysteries episode aired and police did circle back to interview Kearns and some others. A handwritten note says they were told to talk to shelves because quote He. He knows a lot more than what he's saying and quote but no one ever did talk to Schaus. Do you think that it is worth looking at that possibility The is always worth talk talking to. Somebody doesn't hurt to interview somebody or re interview. Somebody if you have new information sure anytime that works Possibly I know some of the detectors there now. They may want to I can't get involved in of of course my sorrow but yeah they may I. I wouldn't ever you know not turned down the chance to interview somebody. If you get new information it's not new information exactly but once you realize hearing never thought of David as despondent. You're forced to face that police based their suicide theory largely on one man's opinion and that one man just so happens to be the last person to have seen David alive he even puts himself with David at the time of death. It seems worthy of some questions now. Kearns is quick to say David was killed that night and he'll even tell you his theory when the cameras cameras aren't rolling but he doesn't agree with either the letter writer or DC. Colds believe that David died to thwart his planned. whistle-blowing rather kearns subscribes to another motive. Based on the as far as I can tell unfounded rumor that David ex-wife had started dating someone at the plant and I found this intriguing at first because it statistically far more likely that someone would be killed for love or sex then killed as part of a huge governmental ever mental cover up as David's kids about this and they're not only adamant that it isn't true but they said it couldn't have happened Carleen. Their mother mother was no longer with David when he got the job. At fernald nineteen eighty-one she had never been to accompany. Event never visited David at work. Current spouse's didn't know much about the company so it stands to reason in ex wife would know even less. She also lived farther from for an older than David did on top of all that Casey remembers her mom's boyfriend from that time period because she was dating a younger man whose best friend ended up. Marion Casey the two were divorced now. But it's Kinda hard to forget that time. Your mom dated your husband's best friend. I don't think this relationship chip rumor is remotely founded. But I do wonder if there's an element of kearns suspicion that's worth exploring the timing of David's death Seems too close to the news breaking about the plants lack safety record to be ACQU incidents. But what if it were. What if David had been killed for something? Far More pedestrian more predictable. The drugs question for example. I know my dad was way against drugs like I said when my younger brother got busted at school for having weed he wanted gets custody he thought you know my younger brother was going to be some a harrowing addict with an a week. Because he had we'd on at school. This experience left her kids with the impression that dad was four square in the just they know camp. That could be a possible possibility of what happened. It might not be about the uranium leaks. It could be that he happen often to find out about the DOE to be clear as outsiders. We can't know for sure that drugs were sold at for an old. I tried to pull. Oh police records to learn about any drug bust there but the plant was federally owned and staffed its own security. Police didn't do anything there unless they were asked. The front gate was guarded by a man with a big gun. We have heard this drug allegation from multiple former employees though and others said similar similar things during oral history interviews with Cornell Community Alliance in the late nineteen ninety s also to be clear even if drugs were sold there. It's possible David. These drugs never intersected but it seems worth the question if David had stumbled on anything of the sort he had already proven himself to be willing to complain about his co workers breaking rules he had recently gone. Someone suspended for sleeping on the job after all If David had spotted drugs it's not inconceivable that he might have threatened tell bosses and considering this was federal property anyone involved with drug use or sales surely was at risk of losing their security clearances and their jobs when police investigate crimes crimes. They're taught to consider who had the means the motive and the opportunity nearly everyone who worked at for an all during David slush shift had the means means and opportunity over the past fourteen months. We've found several possible motives worth pursuing. We've done as much as we've been able to but we're journalists us no matter how hard we work on these cases. There's a limit to what we can do. We can't issue subpoenas or execute search warrants. We can only hope that the people empower consider what we've uncovered and take it from there. It's been more than thirty five years and many of the people with information in this case are are sick. The clock is ticking. Next time on accused the rules right. Now say that it has to Stan. I stay in the federal government's ownership. There were threats around here that they keep it up now. Nobody will have a job and they use that as leverage and they didn't like us at all Tom was it was quite phenomenal. And they were metal materials. It was a joke. You're a thinking terms of a giant radioactive junk yard to bench this season go to. WWW dot wondering dot com slash plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM slash P L U S to support report the creators of accused directly go to our peak. Rampage donors get bonus content and early episodes that's Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special the project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA Today network narrated by amber hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil Dibbin and edited by. Amy Wilson. Uh Intern Mark Rosenberg. Provided additional research music was composed by Andrew Higley to look at case documents photos videos and more visit accused podcast cast dot com as noted. Some audio comes from a living history projects. In the finale community lands. Transcript to those interviews are available at for an old community the alliance Dot Org

Drake David Harry Harry Charles Schaus Mel Kearns Michael Schaus David box Schaus Kearns Harry easterling writer Dave box Cole cosigns David Supervisor Charlie Schaus Charlie Charlie Kohl supervisor David Slash DC Xiao Scott
Chapter 4: The truth about Fernald

Accused

48:42 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 4: The truth about Fernald

"Previously on accused the interviews about over. So is it fair to say that the government the people here in the early years absolutely it seems so mundane yet. It seems so at the same same time or potentially evil. I don't know how much we know about your radio. Sugars today my husband said to me. Maybe it's time to quit. I said I can't AH Capitol I -member Hunt and this is accused the mysterious stack that David box. Larry Hicks was a healthy thirty-three-year-old man when he awoke one day in May nineteen eighty five and headed to his job as a supervisor at national lead of Ohio's for an old plant the married father of three and avid jogger had risen the rings after working twelve years at the company. It was a solid reliable job that provided well for his his family. But I'm this day not quite a year after his co worker. David box apparently disappeared inside of a salt. Inferno a piece of machinery malfunctioned overhead during Larry's shift and he was doused in particles of uranium. Fun fact about uranium it's is colorless and odorless and Larry Likely didn't know how acutely he'd been exposed his family certainly didn't all they knew. Was that for days afterward word. Larry felt sick and was required to undergo decontamination. Scrubs daily at work that lasted four days. On the fifth day he died. He was five months shy of thirty four years old. If you've been listening to this season of accused wondering how on earth anyone could get conspiracy minded enough to think the government might have helped cover up the killing of David box you need. Look no further. The nutcase Larry Hicks Hicks went tip. Work Healthy one day was drenched in uranium and felt ill until his death five days later it sounds pretty open and shut that the exposure and and his demise were probably connected and yet. Here's the voice of a former manager. Summing up the outcome of Larry's widows wrongful breath lawsuit. We won that case he didn't have uranium poisoning. He died of a task deficiencies and we had. We had some of the best heart specialists around who've made the K. R. Case and it convinced the jury that's Weldon Adams he's been one of for nods the biggest defenders over the decades testifying in numerous trials that you could set right on top of a billet of uranium and walk away just fine. Uranium isn't totally safe. He concedes but this notion that it might be responsible for anyone's ill health. Well that's just fake news. That's the way the media does. That's what sells newspapers horror. Stories sellers. Things tell everybody that they're dying of cancer that they've all been killed that there's a great government conspiracy the man and they love it. Maybe it does sell newspapers. I don't know what I do know. Is that when I called past employees to talk to them about Fernald. I noticed Mr theme in their answers. Here's a sampling. We've had you know higher rates of leukemia. And we've had higher rates of breast cancer and kidney cancer and bone cancer serving lung disorders and stuff. I got that. I got to go to dialysis three times a week. Doctor said you live through this. This is rex seats my Cardiac support they were all sick everyone. FM So which is it. Fake News real conspiracy. When you talk to for an old plant alumni alumni you have to be mindful of the type of job the worker held? I learned this the hard way during a joint interview with Bob Kiss Bert and John Sadler Sadler spent most of his career as a laborer. He eventually got promoted to management. But that didn't happen until after the mid nineteen eighties when the health concerns about up for North became public knowledge. Sadler is outspoken in his contempt. For the health problems he believes the plant and the government unleashed on unwitting employees. He said he'd heard time and again. Nothing will hurt you out there unless it falls within your head. Kuenssberg was in management when lack safety allegations came to light and it turns out he sees things a bit differently than Sadler does well. I always like to think the best of people apple and that the people who were in charge were comp the trouble now. It's scheduled an interview with Sadler. I hadn't yet heard of kiss. Burt and I certainly had asked him for an interview. But when I Amanda An engineer Phil did. He showed up at Sadler's house at the scheduled time. He said that he had asked a former CO worker to join us and said this friend would be able to answer all of our technical questions because this guy knew the plant inside out we said shirt. That's great the more insight. The better Kuenssberg showed up and things at first were fine but then something shifted. Sadler said managers knew how dangerous the work was but didn't warn anyone disparate said he agreed with Sadler then the two talked about the lawsuits that that were filed by both the area residents and for knowledge employees. Prompting me to ask when these suits started filing. Did the tenor inside the plant change in terms of I mean because some employees were were suing the company at that point was there tension among workers because somewhere on one side and others on the gather. No it was more like the Union filed a lawsuit uh-huh well let's see how it goes in court after Lisa Crawford and the residents of the residents were much more vocal at the time But the do straight up lied about some of the harsh world. That's Casper talking but it. It is actually true though right a so harsh word characterize it. I'M GONNA say they lied. You don't have to. I did but I mean if I me right you know I would be verbal take-up mine more than an actual question. What it's so if it's not alive? Then what is it that's the same question but angle Novas ally so what would you characterize it us. What are we trying to characterize her? The interview continued like this not great not terrible as though we were talking past each other rather than to one another. The words he spoke sounded in theory like they could be responses to my questions but they really weren't no matter how how hard I tried. I couldn't find level footing. I tried another approach. You guys come from a certain background. He works there so your your perception in his different. Obviously in the minus your perspective if I went to work every day and had been told that things were safe and then learned it true lawsuits that they weren't and that My bosses knew that I would be angry. I think people were her. Were you angry. No coasts I I felt safe okay. Why mm-hmm because I felt safe? I didn't feel threatened okay so even though there were scientists pointing to ah real hard violations of these standards You still thought well. They told me save so it safe. Well I think the interviews about okay all right I. I'm not sure I can't Continue to be grilled like this. I ask people uncomfortable questions all the time. It's my job but but usually I know when I'm asking them this time. I genuinely didn't understand what I had asked. That was offensive from today's vantage point joint. It's well documented that the Fernald plant was more dangerous than employees. Were told we know this to be true because the Department of Energy eventually set so oh past. Employees are guaranteed health screenings for life because of the workplace exposure. We'll talk about that more later. But it's called the worker for Health Protection Program Pass for knowledge workers get the added bonus of Free Lodo C.. T. Scans for early lung cancer screening. So when I asked about the seat. I didn't consider it a confrontational question after kiss. Burt said okay. Continue to be grilled like this. We sat in Awkward Silence for beat until Sadler interjected. He said that kiss was an ally who had worked in management and those two facts could be the at odds with each other kipper had grown concerned in the nineteen seventies when a number of workers reported having cancer kiss. Burt was there. Sadler said when the Department of Energy sent this has been wife team in do a radiological survey on the clean side and he found all the buildings contaminated on the grounds contaminated. So there really wasn't a clean side of the fence. There is no six out of the fence asking questions with that in mind. It's not intended to grill. It's it's based on the reality of the fact that it was a dangerous work environment and people weren't forthcoming about that so it's not a I'm not trying to be combated by any means I'm I just don't I don't know how else to talk about this scenario. I don't know how to answer but I didn't feel threatened. Okay Yeah I just asked why now now. Maybe there's something wrong or deficient with me for thinking that way. But that's another discussion. You read my presentation. I did and I said in there that everybody that worked out there during production was walking uranium mine. Because you get that ingested that'd whether it goes in your lungs or it goes to other parts of your body to affect your other organs we all have it in us and if they were processing plutonium you got a two hundred forty thousand year half life or plutonium and it doesn't dissolve and it doesn't go away so anybody that died that worked out in for an old old during the production time. They did an autopsy. They'd find something in their bodies. I feel like you guys are in two different planets a little bit but not not a lot but he like I said he was in management and But I was out in the plant where intermingled with all all the workers in the production workers. And I'd hear them say things and I take it in and they say well look at this and and There was was one story about a guy that lived in Lanchester in. He was coming to work. And he's coming down for Milford area to seventy five when he got the Tri County. He sent a yellow cloud in the sky. We follow it all the way to the plant and it was coming from the planet so I mean contamination lot farther than our plant where it was in wherever the wind was blowing. It at made it. offsite that's well known is there. Is there a defensiveness in being from management I think the interviews over okay. I'm getting tired. That's fine. We thank you so I I need to be getting back takeaway. I share that exchange. Because it's telling there's a bizarre schism among people who believe for an all. Did something wrong and people who don't or at least dance around saying they don't founded maddening. These are gray areas. My brain cannot reconcile Either uranium is dangerous or it isn't and the government knew or didn't it's amazing. How fraught this issue actually is? You can pose the the same question in the same words to the same person and get different answers for example in one trial Weldon Adams testified that workers knew precisely. How dangerous working with uranium was and because of that deserve no compensation for the danger they'd been exposed to and another trial? He said they deserve. No compensation because uranium wasn't dangerous at all Adams in particular is amazing at this kind of double speak. No you've heard people say no. The the Union people go Berserk and they complain because some people have made this. I never made the statement that I've been accused of making the statement and I never made at anytime that you could take tablespoons full of uranium oxide in your mouth and swallow it and it probably wouldn't hurt you now. I never made that statement but the truth of the matter is that it probably wouldn't do you any damage or at least not much damage image and let me explain why insoluble compounds just passed right through your digestive track regardless of how toxic they may be To put that another way. I never said you could swallow uranium oxide and it wouldn't hurt you but here's why it wouldn't hurt you if you swallowed uranium oxide. It's it's honestly exhausting. But here's the thing. Cancer rates among for knowledge employee's are higher than the national average. The Centers for Disease Control released the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health Study in June. Two thousand thirteen that found more than a fifty percent increase in lymph and blood cancers answers among salaried men who worked there hourly workers saw a fifteen percent greater risk of dying from cancer than the general population Can we say for certain that increased risk is definitely because of those workers exposure to uranium. No cancer unfortunately doesn't arrive have with a telegram attached announcing just what caused it but communities that boasted factories tied to nuclear weapons creation have been statistically Dick Lee shown to have higher cancer rates than areas. That didn't as scientists Stephanie Malan said they're showing their cancer clusters. They're showing that people have rare cancers those living on the street from each other. This isn't just a benefit from hindsight kind of thing. Either as kiss. Burt said earlier. He and other fernald managers started noticing in high cancer rates in the seventies by nineteen eighty federal reports detailed equipment failures routine leaks and carelessness that allowed thousands of pounds news of mildly radioactive uranium to escape from the plant in the eighties widows were filing lawsuits around the time. The news broke that for an all had been polluting. The area with uranium dust union reps began protesting the Federal Department of Energy was running health tests. Jeffrey see a representative representative of the Atomic Trades Labor Council at Fernald told the enquirer quote. You not only have the Fox guarding the Hen House out there. You also have the Fox giving the headcount in the inventory in other words saying all the chickens are here. There's nothing to worry about. And quote the unions lobby to have agencies outside outside of the we examined health concerns and the resulting data was bleak a nineteen ninety-six study examined one thousand sixty four deaths from nineteen nineteen eighty. Two one thousand nine hundred nine. The study found an increase in deaths among hourly workers from Lung Cancer and respiratory disease that were linked to higher doses of radiation exposure. Well then Adams is quoted in a new story about that study. He said it was quote. The worst scientific study eighty. I've ever read. I still do not believe that. Uranium caused any cancers at Fernald. These results were cobbled up to satisfy politicians and quote Accused is sponsored by policy genius. It's already December as much as we love getting seasonal. This month can can be a bit stressful to. We've all got a long list of things to do for the holidays. 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When you're racking your brain trying to come up with thoughtful gifts for the people you care about well? Here's something something anyone will love the gift of an audible membership and now is the best time to do it with a special offer of fifty three percent off your first three months With audible you can access an unbeatable selection of audiobooks including bestsellers motivation mysteries thrillers memoirs. And more I always enjoy reading a good memoir or biography at the top of a New Year. One I've got my eye on right now is Jenny Lawson's a funny book about horrible things with the convenient audible APP. You can listen on any device anytime anywhere. which makes it great for commuting for the gym or during your holiday travels right right now for a limited time you can get three months of audible for just six ninety five a month? That's more than half off the regular price visit audible dot com slash accused or text accused to five hundred. Five hundred. Now is the perfect time to give the gift of audible again. That's audible dot com slash accused. I or text accused to five hundred five hundred and now back to our story. I've talked about the headlines that hit just this months after David box disappeared. But I haven't spelled out the details or the firestorm. The News unleashed the first story. The one I mentioned in episode sold one about how Fernald might have released. Uranium dust in the air was written in a very balanced way that is to say it provided company officials equal oh space to deny the allegations the writer even got the denial right in the lead or the first graph of this story we journalists are supposed to strive for balance but this can backfire at times like when one side is providing accurate information and the other side isn't the issue is whether the uranium dust was released into the air. And that's a yes or no question in hindsight. The company's denial didn't deserve equal space because as we've learned in the intervening decades that the company was wrong. I can't fault journalist here. The reporter did what we're trained to do. He got at both sides but stories like this one show how dependent we journalists are on people to tell the truth especially when covering the two you most secretive sectors there are business and government. That first reporter didn't stay on the story. He was soon replaced by Ben Kaufmann. The reporter you heard from an episode three Kaufman covered the environment. But he still wasn't a uranium expert and this stuff was doubly hard to interpret right because those initial stories came from legal filings. And if you've never read illegal motion trust me when I say they can be mind-numbingly up to about those court filings Kauffman said that I would read it and then probably craft to call like what is this me the lawyer. I didn't pretend to be a lawyer. That's on it honestly. That's a sign of good reporter afraid to say. Hey I'm an idiot. Hit on this. Can you please explain it. The old that I've written for myself so that nobody else messes it up. I say it's a perfect trade for somebody who propelled by ignorance when you've got a complicated story like this figuring out. The truth is tough for knowledge. Recruited scientists back their version of things publicly. Saying everything was fine and using heady jargon to make the folks disagreeing with them some Lake Tinfoil Hat Ryan conspiracy theorists a lot of those scientists antics were paid and some of them worked for the very government. They were defending not exactly a conflict. Free situation those scientists help keep the news stories balanced for a good while remember. Reporters can get sued if we screw up a fact and when the facts are this complex newsroom lawyers and editors I get nervous the couch things the cover their butts. I don't like jumping in and writing stories when I don't know the topic inside now and this is why if you don't don't have a solid understanding of the matter at hand you're left at the mercy of your sources only. Are you forced to trust them with helping you understand what's happening but you'd have have no way of knowing if they're wrong or worse straight up lying forgive the digression but this is why we need experienced journalists in this country with with experienced comes knowledge and with knowledge we have reporters who posts out the facts rather than simply quote both sides but back to Fernald the stories as nineteen eighty-four ended were both sides stories. But something shifted in January nineteen eighty-five that's when residents like Lisa Crawford banded together in a class action lawsuit seeking three hundred million dollars from old. The lawsuit was a game changer. For starters it had introduced residents to a class action lawyer named Stan Chesley. Who is great at getting up publicity? Canley Chester Stan version in causing stanley as his wife stand is the sole proprietor of a by Komo Standard Small law firm here in Cincinnati that specialized in disasters master disaster was one of the things thinks he didn't use Easter but there was the mgm fire there was the Arrow Air Crash Labrador. Uh there were any number of lawsuits. He filed an one on flawed medical devices. He basically created in many ways The class action lawsuit for personal injuries. It was a personal injury lawyer which is why the People Cincinnati always dismissed him. An ambulance chaser riot. Yeah but if he didn't chase ambulances unless they're one hundred of them going the same direction and he was good at Chesley was from the Cincinnati area but had a national national reputation because some of those class action suits he'd handled were high profile mass disaster cases one of his most notable cases before four for an old was the nineteen seventy seven Beverly Hills Supper Club. Fire case in Southgate Kentucky. One hundred and sixty five people died in another two hundred were injured in an inferno compounded by inadequate fire exits in overcrowding Chesley filed suit on behalf of victims and their families. He's and eventually won them millions. I reached out to Chesley for this project. But he hasn't responded. Well he's well known in Cincinnati the only coverage bridge. I've seen of him since moving here in two thousand thirteen was when he made headlines for losing his law license in Kentucky after skimming money from clients who had won a two hundred million dollar case against the Diet Drug Fen phen. Chesley has been plenty vocal over the years though so we have audio of him talking now they're reporters and for the Living History project the government and whoever was running the plant continue to deny. Continue to deny. I the reality and you could get nothing done when you had governmental agencies and contract. You're saying gee there's no problems the perfect great. Nobody's getting sick. There's nothing going on. As for non headlines Gained Steam Chesley was front and center fighting hard on behalf half of the workers and residents. His reputation has taken a hit because of the issues that arose a few decades later. But at this time he was something of in Erin are in Brockovich prototype when he thought for knowledge officials were lying he said so in front of cameras and he apparently thought that a lot to save everyone time. I won't slowly unfold every allegation. But here's a rundown of what was really happening at the plant. I'm including only what I found to be. Substantiated substantiated by multiple experts documents. I'd like to break out of that. Both sides reporting and cut to the truth for naught managers routinely told employees employees. They had nothing to worry about healthwise you were more likely to get injured by getting your hands stuck in a machine than you were to be exposed to a carcinogen they said workers mostly believed this and any who might want to raise questions with outside. Experts feared speaking up because they weren't legally Kalihi allowed to talk about their jobs. The thought of being fined ten thousand dollars or sent to prison for five years can have a quieting effect. Uh they didn't even talk to their families about what they did for a living. The workers who weren't suspicious didn't think twice about doing things that now sound you're responsible people like bringing their work badges home. They wore those badges in the plant and those badges got covered in uranium dust and then those badges went home with the workers who might slap them on the kitchen counter or bedroom dresser night after night inside the plant. Safety was not safety was not a concern aren't backed up and it was production. Production was king and safety was not even brought into the situation I think this characterization nation from former fernald employee Bob Neal might be a little simplistic for knowledge. Officials were concerned with safety and that they touted a flawless safety record unaccepted bonuses when they supposedly had no injuries on the job and article published in April one thousand nine hundred five ten months after David disappeared quotes. afronaut manager manager is saying. The company's safety record was so good that the plant had received sixty nine awards for safety from state and federal agencies in that same same story though a union representative said the health and safety records were duped Gene Brennan President of the Phonology Atomic Trade and Labour Council accused of taking bizarre steps to assure workers at least made an appearance at the plant allowing them to technically claim that no one missed missed work due to injury. Paul Demarco a lawyer. Who worked with Stan? Chesley told us in a recent interview about one case involving a worker named Dangelo Galina. They used to have these no loss time awards at Cornell they'd get a bonus for no workers losing time so guy like Andrew Galina has really bad burn and in order to avoid losing their war. They put him up in the infirmary and they take on a stretcher. Every day from the infirmary to the administrative office set him down and bring them back. Another safety related anecdote. That stuck with me was a story about Senator John Glenn yes the astronaut visiting for an old while he was there he said an alarm went off. The alarm was meant to alert workers to contamination. Glenn said the workers responded to the alarm by simply turning it off. That's it they turned it off and kept on working. Thrift ING is fun but but spending hours sifting through. The racks isn't especially when the holidays are busy enough. My favorite shopping destination threat up makes it easy to get thrift store door pricing with the convenience of online shopping. There's something for everyone at threat up. 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So you're listening to now was released already on our Patriot impeach at Patriotair dot com slash accused. You can get early ad free episodes there as well as bonus episodes approach behind the scenes peeks. Qa sessions and even a brand new crime and journalism. podcast if you like what we do here consider joining us over there for for this episode were releasing a look at the Fernald community alliances expensive living history project again for this content and more support us at Patriotair. Hey Trian dot com slash accused. Could any of this of bothered David box enough to complain. That's the theory is families. Please come to believe but it's a tough one to prove we do know that workers new. At least some of what was happening. They could see when alarms were ignored and we found around documentation. That workers complained of radiation sickness as far back as nineteen seventy six. We also found an interesting exchange from nineteen eighty-three not a security worker filed a written request asking that he and his peers be allowed to eat in a designated lunch area. The worker said security personnel smell weren't allowed to leave their posts even to eat so they were handling potentially contaminated badges in the same place and with the same aim unwashed hands as where they ate their meals. The company's reply was that past experience told them there was no health risk by eating and checking. Badges is simultaneously the amount of contamination if any would be so minimal as to be negligible the response read in other words even when workers asked to be allowed to take measures to safeguard their health. Their requests were flatly denied. Now residents knew very little about safety fifty issues inside the plant. What caught their attention? Was the groundwater contamination as Stan Chesley said for an all new uranium in the drinking water utter would be problematic and so when the plant was built the man made ponds nearby were lined with plastic but the plasticize with weather and find fine with tear so all of the radioactive water. We go right down and go into patty run creek and into the little Miami River or the Miami And so what happened is that spread. It reached the wellwater across the street at the Crawford House. Parents Kenneth and Lisa would ask their son what he wanted need to drink our son when he said down to a male. We'd say okay. We want you know he got choice. You got water to drink. Milk pure owing sues or pure grape. H. juice apple juice. Something like that off La Times. He thought he wanted water with short hair drinking contaminated water over without. We're doing going arrive thing. Their story mirrored hundreds of others eventually. Fourteen thousand people join Chesley's lawsuit but contaminated emanate. Water was just the beginning between September and December of Nineteen eighty-four alone. Some two hundred and seventy five. Pounds of enriched uranium dust. That was supposed to be trapped in a bag escaped because the bad come loose officials said there was nothing to worry about and a a lot of workers believe them here's former employees dotty Neiman. I thought it was overblown by the media. And I didn't think there was really a danger for Ross. I was not at all concerned but the residents complaints were growing louder at a community meeting. They demanded the doe send in Independent Health Specialists Seles as the lawsuit move forward. They recruited scientists not already employed by the government to help them with testing in fact several of the scientists scientists were from other countries entirely. They were young idealistic and more concerned about getting the science right then playing politics. One scientist are Jack. Johnny who had just started his own institute was asked to estimate how much uranium had been released year by year so that the official official estimates the ones that came from the company could be verified he worked alongside a German scientist named Burn Franca. Whose job was then to to make a model to show how the uranium would have dispersed in the atmosphere and from that they'd figure out how much radiation people had been exposed to? Both of those scientists are still around still prominent in their fields and both told me for knowledge is still important to them and his strange way talking to them almost felt like reminiscing. I mean obviously it was a very seminal moment in my professional life because we are just set up this institute I really wanted to do more environmental and health related work. I wanted to work more independently. And so we set up this institute and and this was one of the jobs we had that kind of was very extraordinary. The and you know we weren't. We didn't set up the institute to get publicity and record it in the papers. We set up the institute to help people who had some money to pay. Hey Uh us who wouldn't otherwise necessarily have access to independent expertise in other words. They didn't work for free but they worked for pretty cheap. Deep for nod site had far deeper pockets. Bottom line is Refund a couple of things that were problematic matic First of all week concluded that the actual the best estimate that we could make the actual actual releases of uranium Over the period war about three times the official estimates activate the scientists had to rely on documents provided by Cornell to do their calculations and at first for didn't hand over a complete set. One of have Chesley's associates Louise's Roselle actually found paperwork that hadn't initially been turned over the more documentation the scientists had the more a precise they could get with their estimates and as that happened the estimates climbed higher. Here's Roselle the lawyer. When they would monitor and Dan the amount being released was below the detectable level instead of putting nd not detectable? They grow zero as so there was nothing coming out and we finally got all of those records and ours. John and Barron Franchi did a study To show you know that the information the government was giving out was not accurate and was that just a shortcoming wing of local employees or joey aware of this do a new. The male voice was lawyer. Paul Demarco who worked alongside aside Roselle Makhijani said some of the scientific calculations used at the plant were not only wrong but there was documentation showing that the. Do He knew you it. So I give you the most dramatic example in a lot of the releases were from scrubbers where they tried read through a wet process. You know to scrub the uranium out of certain Parts of the process before for releasing The gasses up stack this the estimation method of war scientifically wrong and moreover there was a memo in nineteen seventy or seventy one in the plant. That said this estimation method. If I'm remembering the words correctly was inherently deceptive. So they knew it was wrong wrong and the main the problem was a simple one in west I level Algebra that if you have to unknowns who have to have two equations to solve the problem they had to unknowns and only one equation so they assume that the scrubbers were always operating perfectly whereas the off the actual evidence from the plant was that they were often broken broken-down operating at or operating at very low efficiency so the actual releases were much higher Francke who describes himself as in just a little gentleman scientist whose recruitment on the case was chewing lack. Guess said the science put forth by the government was just wrong. They conveniently ignored. All the evidence was already in relapse they could have done Lease little also always have to show a a scientific base is a number higher on and was a nickel Jones have also a gross negligence simply ignore arounds So we could establish that there was negligent that was gross negligence involved in in many particularly aspects cells holiday running. Thank the facility. How the documented so a refund documents that essentially reviews of equipment one constant? My mind is the thing these respirators that beware of the epitome of So they all quality control people's saying our respirators are really bad and then they do very much of it. There was there was operational national negligence. There was negligence regarding the protection of the humans against the dangers of immaterial. reworking it was rendered Monitoring them they did with Topley Franca and market. Johnny were ready to testify in the class. Action lawsuit filed by the residents but the judge assigned to the case had an unusual practice of staging a sort of mini trial. When he thought a civil case might clog up his courtroom room for too long? He called them. Summary jury trials he would empanel real jurors who heard abbreviated versions of the case. With far fewer witnesses witnesses then the jury would go out. After real deliberations and bring back and advisory verdict. This is Kaufman the reporter he covered the residents summary trial. The idea was that top executives of the parties involved heard that they they were likelier to consider settling then going to real trial and making a real mess of his schedule. The scientists findings were were presented to judge s Arthur Spiegel. The government presented. Its own expert. WHO said workers health wasn't endanger every trial? Even even weird abbreviated. One has a battle of experts. It usually comes down to which side the jurors believe but Kaufman remembers that on at least least one issue. The government was caught in a lie. It had to do with forms on which dust emissions were logged national lead. I might add that was backed by the Federal Federal Government produced the records of all these. I'll call them vets out of the buildings but they had bags underneath made if some material collected us and nothing was getting out and that was part of their defense and then stand or one of his listen awesome. When did you last calibrate the meters that measured that and the person turned out that the testimony ended up that they had known for years? The meters were broken and there's no way they could have measuring missions they don't it and and continued to record Zeros and submit those federal records and the judge urged the US attorney who was is present as part of the defense team with an Elo consider prosecution. They I think they just missed that in Canana second but the judge Spiegel's angry enough that was fraud on the court. And so that's a moment of shock for uh-huh. Yeah but I was because I was the environment reporter when you learned that somebody is knowing the poisoning somebody over the long term or are denying that they're doing something and they are usually shocking. The jury that heard this many trial ruled in favor of the residents. The prompted the company to offer a seventy eight million dollar settlement which Lisa Crawford crew accepted residents were also promised years of medical monitoring monitoring meanwhile workers like Dottie Neiman. Who had dismissed? The early news about Fernald is being overblown by the media. We're starting to think differently. And it wasn't until after the class action sued and then more articles came out in the newspaper and they start exposing and explaining more of what happened. Came quite alarmed at that time. I said Oh my goodness what's going to have an arc shoulder. Are we raise four children here. It was fairly scary. was very frightening. Now remember all of this was beginning to unfold the just months after David boxes disappearance his family was still holding out. Hope that those remnants found in the salt dot weren't really his remains I they learn the dust releases. Then they learn of the poisoned well water then they hear about a worker who died five days after being exposed to uranium Iranian dust on the job and those are just the public revelations behind the scenes. They're also hearing from David's Co workers that there's no way he put himself himself in that that they're getting anonymous notes and phone calls saying he knew about these dust releases and safety issues and was going to blow the whistle. They're sharing things like this all right. Well they know who was the person hit holdings that apparently nearby Scott the gumption the stand up and say anything and all might sound like Kooky conspiracy nonsense but once you've learned that the government has has actually been caught in straight up. Lies is at that hard to make the leap to murder next time on accused. Um So I had been looking all day for DC self-described investigative reporter. Danny comes in I've got this great store and you're GONNA love it it's GonNa change the world we're GonNa get the if you met him. I didn't know he was. You'd think this guy's just get ready to go out to South Dakota for the for the bike. Rally out there you. I know he was just trying to. I think exact some revenge for what the final folks and the government had done to him and his family uh the season go to. WWW dot wondering dot com slash plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM SLASH P L U. S. to support the creators of accused directly go to our patriots page. Don't get bonus content Dan early episodes. That's up Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA Today network narrated by amber hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil Dibbin and edited. Did it by Amy Wilson Intern Mark Rosenberg. Provided additional research. Music was composed by Andrew. Higley to look at case documents photos videos and more visit accused podcasts dot com as noted. Some audio comes from a living history projects and the for an old community alliance transcript to those interviews are available. It's an old community alliance Dot Com.

government David box Stan Chesley John Sadler Sadler Fernald reporter Lisa Crawford Burt Kaufman Weldon Adams cancer Larry kidney cancer Fernald Fernald Arthur Spiegel Larry Hicks Hicks Cincinnati Dan
Chapter 3: The Cold War creeps

Accused

44:34 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 3: The Cold War creeps

"Previously on accused. I still think suicide. I'd say just looked like hell. I mean it just like Equa look down at Hale and there was a big hole in the ground tow look like open red cone like Lava Abba Volcano. Here's that we had wanted to go after workman's all to a person. Everyone said not suicide. Welcome to accused the mysterious death of David box commando hunt Lisa Crawford lived in a rented house in Ross Ohio across the street from the Fernald uranium processing plant like a lot of people in the area. She wasn't quite sure what that big complex complex across the street actually produced and she didn't worry about it either and then one day she came home and learned that a man had been poking around the water well in her backyard. Hard the next thing Lisa knew she was being told that she her husband and her young son had all been drinking contaminated water. We were. We were angry. We will mad. How dare you and little by little more? Information is coming out. Lisa got pissed and stayed pissed for for years she helped create a community group of equally piss neighbors and she became a thorn in the side of every public official she encountered they are like. Oh Oh you can drink the water. The water won't hurt you. So I took a jug of water and five Solo Cups Red Solo Cups which means a lot now. They didn't mean anything back then and I just said you know if we can drink. Here's your cop I poured nobody would drink it. When you're like what they don't drink it? Then why the hell should I give it to my kid. The case at the center of this season might be a mystery but one thing is certain about Fernald it has a body count of more than one and this episode will explore. How government fought to keep that a secret wedding planning? Sounds like a lot of fun until you dig in and try to do it yourself. I learned that the hard way a few years ago but if I had known about Zola planning my wedding would have been a whole lot easier. 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A. dot com slash accused to build your free wedding website and get fifty dollars towards your registry Zola Dot com slash slash accused. David Boxes Family was still reeling from the news that he vanished one night during his shift they had seen in the photos of bone fragments remnants of metal but they had also heard the rumors that he'd scaled the fence and they held out. Hope he'd soon come home. The uncertainty was torture then in December nineteen eighty-four about five months after David Slash shift. They started carded reading bizarre stories about uranium leaks in both the air and the ground around the uranium processing plant where he worked well what happened to their father. Father Barely made a blip in the news stories about for nod. Were about to explode. The plant would soon be in the New York Times and on the cover of Time magazine. This story caught the attention of local journalists as well. My name is John Hughes. I got my undergraduate degree in political science and Economics Went back later and got my master's journalism I've been a working journalist and educator since nineteen sixty seven. This is John. John Hughes recorded for an oral history in two thousand one. He teaches photojournalism at the University of Cincinnati in the late nineteen eighties. His stark photographs photographs of Fernald were featured alongside poetry and a book called pieces of for nod. I don't think I knew about for all tell there were problems. I can't recall ever hearing about it in a in in casual conversation or even with people who had had concerns about social issues so it must have been the mid eighties eighty-five somewhere in there. The we're made aware of some problems and it was at that time that I drove out there with no antenna other than just try to find out where this place is Hughes had moved to Cincinnati. It's natty in the early nineteen seventies and was one of the many who assumed for an old was a feed plant because of the feed plants through me and then you saw all the water tower. That was checkerboard. Like Ralston. PURINA was a reasonable conclusion to draw. He says and here you are in a rural Wpro community where you might expect to find what anyone could make a conclusion of feed plant. That had something to do with the agricultural or culture business so very disarming thanking of how really unusual this place is in the context of being what it what it is purported to be it seems so mundane yet it seems so heave all at the same time or potentially evil whether this Purina misdirect was meant to trick residents or Russians. It's hard now to say what we do I know is that the plant was built in nineteen fifty one about six years after the. US Drop to horribly effective atomic bombs on Japan to end the Second World War four. After a brief recovery period following that show of force the arms race was officially underway. Everyone wanted nuclear weapons and and lots of countries eventually succeeded in getting them. Great Britain France China and of course the Soviet Union when the fornell plant it was built. It wasn't a secret newspaper stories from nineteen fifty one cover its construction and it wasn't cloaked dog food factory either when when story in the enquirer began quote construction of the Atomic Energy Commission installation at Fernald Ohio which is destined to play a vital role. In the nation's atomic comic energy program in peace or war is getting into high gear and quote later in the story. It's explained that the thirty million dollars site sprawling across thousand fifty acres would quote refined uranium. Ore but Kuenssberg was one of the plants earliest employees ace. He told us you have to turn back the clock to nine thousand nine hundred fifty four when I graduated from high school and for an all plant was being built and that it was the buzz in the city. You know people. They're building the new bomb planted a certain and I did well in Chemistry and I applied for a job and was hired as a laptop. That was the beginning of a more than fifty year career. Getting hired at for Nolde was a big deal. The place paid well and it had a coop program so recent high school grads ads. Like Kiss Bird could work at the plant while getting their college degrees at the University of Cincinnati Kiss birds studied engineering for five years then left for for a two year stint in graduate school and it just happened that when I was finish their opening and I said well I like it and been there ever says it might be tough to imagine now but back in the nineteen fifties working at a nuclear plant. Can't was seen not just as a fine job but as an act of patriotism. The Cold War was very real and at the time the US was pretty united and the bad guys. Soviet Union was generally called the enemy. The end of World War Two was the I and knock on wood so far only time. A country used atomic weapons until then the average American had only read about test sites after the bombs exploded news stories and photos tried to convey the devastation. One Associated Press Story said here Shima was completely -pletely destroyed and the dead too numerous to count practically all living things. Human and animal were literally seared to death. The story story read another story said the second bomb blew thirty percent of Nagasaki from the map. Japan was an enemy. One that had bombed Pearl Harbor. Even so Americans cheered these headlines that might sound callous but those bombs ended the war which had been the deadliest in history story. eighty-five million casualties are attributed to it. About four hundred. Twenty thousand Americans died. The end of this war was welcome. Welcome even if it meant wiping cities off the planet but as the dust settled public opinion began to shift other countries started developing similar weapons. People began to panic as they realize that. If there's ever a third World War it'll likely be nuclear. which makes Bert the turtle? All the more absurd. He did what we all month to. You knew food. This was a cartoon teacher showed kids at school. The goal was no doubt to teach children without panicking taking them. But it was about is unsettling as it would be to watch Barney the dinosaur talking about school shootings parents sent their kids off to school and the kids came home. Terrified from duck and cover drills the atomic bomb flash could burn you worse than a terrible sunburn especially where you are not covered people. People who had the means bought or built fallout shelters. They had seen photos of leveled cities of skeletons littering the ground. The skin and muscle burned clean from the bones. Skin had melted off of children. It's one thing to know. Your country was the first to use in Armageddon device to end a war. It's another thing entirely to realize. Everyone else is catching up to you. Then the Soviets tested a fifty eight megaton bomb in one thousand nine hundred sixty he won nicknamed the SAR Bomba. It was then and remains today. The most powerful man made explosion in history. According into the Atomic Heritage Foundation the blast annihilated buildings thirty four miles away from ground zero. This explosion was so big that if you took hero Shema Nagasaki and combine them. You still wouldn't come close to it when news spread about this test. People were petrified. Sure fide they'd been practicing duck and cover. How is hiding under your school? Deaths going to protect you from fifty Megaton bomb accused sponsored by policy genius. 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You switched whether you need home insurance for a new place place or just want to reshape your current policy head to policy genius Dot Com. Today you can get started on your smartphone right now policy genius when it comes to home insurance. It's nice to get it right. Those are Bomba was tested October. Thirtieth nineteen sixty one on November. First Fifty thousand women nationwide marched as part of the women strike for peace to protest nuclear weapons. Their slogan was and the arms armed three snapped the human race then nineteen sixty two brought the Cuban missile crisis which was the closest the US and the USSR got to nuclear war. These were scary times. After two world wars and the debut of atomic weapons nuclear annihilation. Just didn't seem that far fetched enter here the peace movement the nineteen sixties. Hippies weren't just about long hair and free love. There's was a political movement took root I as an anti-nuclear protests that shifted in the mid nineteen sixties two opposing US involvement in the Vietnam War. The peace sign that came to symbolize opposition Vietnam actually debuted as a symbol for the United Kingdom's campaign for Nuclear Disarmament so by the nineteen seventies. Wendy's chic as it once. been to work at a nuclear weapons plant for knowledge. Workers signed documents promising not to talk about their jobs. Under penalty of Law Uh Cincinnati newspaper coverage lessened to dropping from an average of one hundred and fifty news stories year. To a couple of dozen to be clear. I heard the stories written. Didn't hide the plants purpose. One headline in the Akron Beacon Journal read quote nuclear waste at Ohio plant manages to keep low profile and quote. People who paid attention could find out what happened at for an old but let's face it attention spans weren't much better in the nineteen eighty s and then they ar today with for non Lang Low people sort of forgot about it. Even people like Lisa Crawford who in Nineteen eighty-four lived across the street in a house. She rented with her husband and their seven year old son and the funny thing is I had applied for a job here and they never called. Gosh I could go right across the street and go to work so I was a secretary for years. We interviewed lease at the fernald preserve on a beautiful summer day. That's why you hear. Some bird sounds in the background. Lisa assist the plant was as mysterious as it was sprawling. She knew it was the area's largest employer and she knew paid well. What is this place what are they? Nobody knew what it was what they did nothing. The neighbors all thought it was a Purina Dog Chow plant when you applied. What did you think they did? I wasn't sure EXAC- my husband said they always called it the atomic plant. And you think what's fat you know. We're young we don't know and the big sign out at the end of the driveway said feed materials production center. It had a red and white checkerboard thing in the corner her and it also had a little Dutch boy paint thing in the corner. Which Kinda like people thought you know? It's a feed place you know. We're we're we don't know the the jobs at Fernald were sought after trades folk like David. Box lured by decent paychecks. We have David's employment records which show he had been given several races over the years his base pay when he disappeared was about twenty two thousand dollars a year or fifty four thousand in today's money an ear and a fair bit of overtime on top of that beyond the pay. There was a sense of patriotism that came with a career. There's something kind of romantic pick about working a job meant to help safeguard your country. Lisa never heard back about her job application but for now called still became a huge part of her life in short order so then all of a sudden the guy who owned our property came and said well they've been tested wells and you're well as one of the contaminated limited wells right away. You know you think Gosh I've got a child and you know what does this mean you don't we don't know what uranium is we don't know what milligrams is an all this. This is stuff that none of us know. It turned out that the wells in the area were routinely tested by the company for Uranium contamination homeowners. I were alerted. But we wasn't a homeowner. She was a renter when her landlord told her that her well tested positive. She looked at her son and in freak out. Her landlord said she shouldn't worry that the contamination was minor. But she wasn't about to take his word for it. She called the Ohio Environmental Memento Protection Agency and the Ohio Department of Health and demanded they each test the well and give her second opinions they each did and gave her to entirely contradictory contradictory opinions. So the EPA letter came back pretty quick and said find another source of drinking water and had the The results and you know there were strontium ninety there was uranium and they were like finding another source of drinking water so we started buying bottled water. You know you you do all that stuff how you feel when you get that letter because you feel really angry and you feel really like Oh my God what have I done what have I bought. My little boys voiced play in a swimming pool there. You'll get a shower every day. You wash your clothes every day. You know every time you get shower. You put your kid in the bathtub. You think God God what have I done. The Ohio Department of Health Letter came back and said Oh it's fine it won't hurt you. You can drink it. So which. Which one do you pick? I picked. EPA Ladder and we let the people who owned the property. Know that you know you you gotta do something you gotTa provide water and we gotta get the Hell Outta here. Graham Mitchell was Lisa's main contact at the Ohio. EPA He didn't know much about out for knowledge until his boss approached him in late. Nineteen eighty-four to check out some rumblings about issues in the area. That's how I got involved and so oh by eighty five. I was sampling. Lisa Crawford's groundwater well and a whole bunch of other wells in that area. Several wells were contaminated but Lisa's case with special for a specific reason so that situation was kind of bizarre in that set Lisa. Lisa's wells contaminated. Who knows for how long wrong but some years I'm sure and the we knew it? And they told the landowner it was renting the property. They told the land owner and then they either they or the landowner never told her. I don't know the exact times or dates that that happened. But I know that that's the case at least will probably give you more details on that. It's my understanding that that that that she was a renter a helped her footing because other ones like the homeowners had been told and kind of dismissed it but she she wasn't given the opportunity to dismiss it because she was never told right so over Lisa had been set to move anyway soon because she and her husband were building living their dream home problem was they were building it just a mile down the road there for an all. The worries were slightly lessened but not a race by the move Lisa. He says stayed angry and stayed. Vocal officials said she was overreacting that her water was fine to drink. That's when she filled Red Solo cups from her well and offered them up at a public meeting. No one was willing to drink. Lisa had never dealt with reporters before but she quickly learned how to keep a story the headlines. I became the media darling which I'd never done before and I mean every day it was an interview or something. She's not exaggerating about her media. Darling role when I dug through Archive newspaper stories looking for Lisa and Fernald mentioned together I found her quoted needed more than seven hundred times and that's just in Ohio multiple. TV New shows featured or to the community groups she helped create was called fresh rush an acronym for for all residents for environmental safety and health. Fresh had a lot of numbers but LISA ended up being the face of the organization and she felt it was her job her duty to keep a spotlight on Fernald. Not just for her kid before. Everyone's kids she took it upon herself itself to learn everything she could about the plant. Its purpose and its owners and God. They hated us they litter. I mean. They literally hated us and they would like yeah. You can't come in nothing very little information. Here's what she learned for. An auld was not and had never ever been a feed production company like so many of her neighbors thought it was a uranium processing plant owned and operated by the US Department of Energy a federal agency. If you picture this tale as one thousand nine hundred movie deal we officials would definitely be the bad guys. I asked Lisa so so. Is it fair to say that the government lied to people here in the early years absolutely. Oh Yeah wasn't sure at that was fair. It's a fair I think is very fair absolutely. Here's how they lied. And not if you've watched the recent. HBO Series Chernobyl Parts. Parts of this will sound familiar. It's the same era the same industry in some of the same FIBS albeit told by different government. I the DOE insisted insisted that the plant was totally safe. Yes uranium was refined there but the radioactivity exposure was minimal Weldon Adam's then for an consistent center manager was quoted in Nineteen eighty-three as saying quote. You could sit on an ingot of uranium and probably. Nothing would happen you. You wouldn't want to sit on a gram of radium and quote it's true that the effects of radium are far more immediate and severe than uranium. So in that way. Adams's is partly right. You wouldn't WanNa sit on radium but uranium is in danger free. You've no doubt heard about Marie Curie who did tons of experiments this with radium and polonium. Those are far more radioactive and at first they got way more attention because they were more exciting than uranium jury. Jury had no idea initially. Just how dangerous these things were though she would carry vials of the stuff in her lab coat. Pockets radium seemed really cool. I mean it could glow in the dark some watchmakers in the one thousand nine hundred hired teenage girls to paint the watch numbers with with radium those so called radium. Girls would use their mouths to bring the paintbrushes to a fine point. The girls started dying in the nineteen twenties. These some of the girls literally fell apart as they died as in their jawbones crumbled in their own. Hands the radium having displaced the calcium in in their bones. Polonium was so dangerous that we've never found much of a use for it. Aside from eliminating static electricity and machines and textile style meals and makes a hell of a poison. Though in two thousand six it was used to kill a Russian defector journalists named Alexander Litvinenko Who'd been a fierce critic of the Kremlin a public inquiry later found that now President Vladimir Putin had likely ordered the assassination which took weeks and was painful? Here's Stephanie Malin in associate professor of environmental sociology from Colorado State University. who sounds it's a little breathy? Because I caught her rushing around after class in a nutshell. Uranium is the first end of the nuclear fuel cycle again. So it's kind of invisible to most of us. We tend to think of nuclear weapons and nuclear power separate from Graham Right. But it's it's basically part of Kernigan or it's the heaviest elements it's obviously naturally radioactive and until about the late thirty s it was just kind of discarded discarded because it was a really understood that it was valuable along with him. We don't use radium polonium much anymore but uranium is another matter after it became a Cold War commodity because it not only was radioactive. But it was what's called fissionable. Nuclear Vision is when in an atom splits into that releases energy that energy can be used for all sorts of scary bomb related purposes. But also some unless scary ones like creating nuclear fuel to power submarines or aircraft carriers a fun fact from the world. Nuclear Association about eleven percent of the world's electricity is generated from uranium in nuclear reactors twenty percent of the United States electricity. It comes from the nearly one hundred reactors operating here. Uranium is less radioactive than the stuff curie studied it would take higher doses or or longer term exposure. For someone to get sick. You might feel and seemed fine for years. Even decades but prolonged exposure could be deadly. Only the government knew this by the nineteen fifties. They knew because uranium miners had higher rates of lung. Renal Diseases Pretty issue about is it's caused a lot of environmental justice and health issues in that even though our government knew that there are dangers that it's not something that folks who worked in the minds or worked in the mills in the forties fifties were notified about. We Know David was at least aware of some safety issues at Bernal because his former co workers say he was quick to tell them about hot spots they should avoid as Harry easterling told unsolved mysteries. They was a fairly fairly quiet guy. But if you worked on job and say it was high radiation level. David Tell you so you know that particular dust collector is fairly radioactive so watch yourself for that. POMP has a certain kind of acid in it. So be careful when you work on his kids. Wonder was David worried enough about plant safety to threaten atten sounding an alarm excuses. Quick break the episode. You're listening to now was released already on our patron page at Patriotair Dot com slash accused. You can get early ad free episodes there as well as bonus episodes behind the scenes beans peaks. QNA sessions and even brand new crime in journalism. podcast if you like what we do here consider joining us over there for this episode were releasing releasing an interview with author. Kate more whose book the radium girls. The dark story of America's Shining Women helped me in my research for the season again for this is content and more supportive set patriot dot com slash accused. Ben Kaufmann was a reporter at the end choir in the nineteen seventies and eighties. He eventually covered for GNARLED. Learning all about the hunks of uranium they produce called billets. He said that when he started started I had no clue that there was a problem out there in those days. When you took a tour you got the car the Comic Comic Book Your Friend The atom and they told you the most dangerous thing with all that Uranium was that if one of those billets fell on your foot you would break it and it would. He didn't know the dangers at first but he at least knew what the plant was supposed to do. Because I was smart but because the enquirer had wonderful library library and clippings and I went to look up fern all it said. Oh this is the place. They're opening in a building as part of the Cold War nuclear weapons weapons program To refine uranium ore into metal uranium to be used in weapons. There was no secret at the time. mm-hmm but over the years a cult of secrecy had grown up. And I think we probably call it willful ignorance to the inquirer covered small-scale news stories related to Fernald up until Nineteen eighty-four. There would be a headline here or there about job. Promotions or environmental mental testing or other barely newsworthy. Happenings occasionally something. More foreboding would hit the paper Lake in nineteen seventy one when a resident complained about how a stream near for Nault he crossed daily on route. To work. Wasn't crystal clear like it used to be. He said quote now. There is often vince. Some substances coating the banks in the liquid flowing it ought to be water but looks more like milk and quote. He spelled out that the change happened. After the site became an atomic plant like most journalists Kaufman had more than one beat one of which was covering courts his first real. Oh story about Fernald ran in February. Nineteen eighty-four four months before David box disappeared. That story was about a woman who filed a lawsuit against against national lead of Ohio. Being the company that ran the plant for contributing to her husband's cancer death. The man who died was Augusta's Abbott He started working at Fernald when it opened and still work there when he died in nineteen eighty two his widow. Nancy sued an Elo for two point. Eight five million dollars saying that L. O.. Knew the dangers of uranium but didn't warn workers she was at least the second widow to file a suit blaming wing for nod for husband's death. The other involved a truck driver named framing Edwards in both suits. The news stories were brief and never for followed up. Despite my attempts I haven't yet found the outcome of either one now. radio-activity has benefits x-rays this are electromagnetic. Radiation cancer cells can be destroyed by carefully directed radiation therapy still. It's important to note that we've been under no delusion that radiation is safe for easily a hundred years radiologist who worked with radiation in the early part of the twentieth twentieth century regularly fell sick with leukemia. It's why we wear lead aprons when getting certain x-rays but those early news stories it's about wrongful death. Suit filed against for nod quoted company officials dismissing any suggestion of health concerns up until those lawsuits. It's Coffman says what are you really want writing much chugging. Along for a couple of decades nobody had any problems. When I think it was nineteen eighty-four we finally the public than the paper? We know the groundwater was pointed. I don't know how much we know about the Radio Station risk today because it was low level radiation but it was on them for years. The water supply issue was the first to raise concerns. Because because when you drink uranium the problem isn't just its radioactivity. Uranium is naturally occurring in small doses. But if you ingest too much of it they can wreak havoc on your body. According to the World Health Organization ingested uranium enters the bloodstream. quickly you urinate some of it out out. But small amounts accumulate in the kidneys and the skeleton takes about fifteen days for the uranium strength to reduce by half. The the half life in the skeleton is far longer. Uranium can hang out in your bones for longer than three months. Some studies even put it out a couple of years and the symptoms of acute. Uranium toxicity are pretty unsettling studies using rats. Found that some of the rodents loss weight and started hemorrhaging emerging from the eyes and lay eggs and knows. Scientists found microscopic changes in the thyroid. And they OUGHTA as well as lesions on livers I and kidneys. Severe kidney damage can follow and that damages. Sometimes you're reversible. Imagine learning you've been serving. Your kid hid water from a well. That could cause any of this. You know by this point I'm doing interviews. I'm crying on the television. I'm worried about my baby. The and that's Lisa Crawford again. After her well was found to be contaminated. Her life changed and not just because she did a few interviews on the local news and by her own description. She was catapulted from small town. Housewife to environmental advocate. Fighting for nolde became an all-out route mission. I had never. I had never flown on an airplane. Ever I flew to DC and testified before Congress are scared shitless man it was like I'm on this plane and this little boy sitting next to me going. Wouldn't it be cool if we landed on the water and I'm like Oh my God and you you know sitting in front of Congress is Kinda scary but I was angry. She had written several pages to deliver to Congress and wasn't finished when a yellow yellow light popped on and a man told her the rupp or comments and I thought I got five six four pages and I just kept reading and The red light came on and he said Miss Crawford. I said you paid for me to get here today. You flew me here. You put me on a real expensive hotel overnight by God. I'm not getting up up and leaving until I finish reading what I have written here. Not another word was said. That was the first of several congressional hearings. Lisa attended we. We tortured our elected officials. I mean tortured them. It wasn't just time consuming. It sometimes felt downright dangerous ten years before all this unfolded folded at Fernald. A woman in Oklahoma named Karen Silkwood had testified before Congress to whistle blow on safety violations at a plutonium plant where she worked and on November Fifth Nineteen seventy four. A detector at work showed she had high levels of radioactive contamination. Her home Even tested positive including the Bologna in her fridge. A week later she left an evening union meeting to meet up with the New York Times reporter supposedly bringing with her documentation supporting her claim that Kerr McGee the company that owned. The plan was knowingly negligent. She never made it to the meeting. Her body was found later that night inside of her car she was killed in what appeared to be a single car crash. None of the documents she supposedly absolutely had been bringing to. The reporter were found with her in nineteen eighty three the year before David box disappeared. Meryl Streep starred as Silkwood it in a posthumous movie. It was a huge hit making thirty five million dollars in earning five Oscar. Nominations it also was part of a string of films in the eighties. That centered on nuclear warfare. The China Syndrome that chain-reaction Wargames Miracle Mile threads hell comes was to frog town. The nuclear industrial complex was not exactly portrayed in the best light so when Lisa Crawford spoke out about an old and she had a sense in Mike Price and this is important. Understand because this feeling of danger is crucial. When you're trying to grasp why David Boxes Family could even come to think that his knowledge of safety lapses at Renauld might have cost him his life? There were stories fresh ones real ones. It's circulating around this time about people said to have been killed for whistleblowing. I toured the site one day. There's a a machine you stand in it it scans you and whatever and I had contamination on my hands. You know you're like okay. I figure I've had my dose. You know God I've been in here so many times and the guy said well. What did you touch? Hello on a tour. We went up and down steps APPS. And the you have visions in your head of they're gonNA drag me off here and they're going to scrub my body down and they're gonNA take my clothes and you you have these horrible visions because we've seen Silkwood and people would say to me. You know what they did to Karen you know what they did to her. It's outed McGee Eh. And I'd say yeah okay. I'm not scared I was threatened. My Life was threatened a few times. My family's life was threatened. That really made me mad and I I had a big top union guy out of at AFL CIO out of DC. Say to me one day. Keep your face on the news your picture. The paper don't be quiet. Tell them what they gotta here and nobody will bother you. So that's what I did. I think my husband got scared. A few times used to be a little red car that follow me around sometimes. We laughed about it because there was what we were always two or three or four of us together. You know not a follow me. I think we all think our phones were tapped a few times in the early years I used to pick it up and say I'M GONNA call my mom now. Do you WANNA listen I mean we just we came became smart Alex mostly so when you say life threatened Kim you. A message was left left on my answering machine that they were gonNA kill me. Come on deep down in your gut. You're like okay so I always made you know at at that point my husband and I made sure we had our wills. We had everything legally you now done in case something would happen to you. You want to make sure your kids taking care of this role played dragged on for years. We will maybe eight years and my husband said to me one day. I mean you know. We're all working fulltime job. You've got a child called your you know your house is clean anymore. And you're lucky if they eat in the laundry done and my husband said to me. Maybe it's time to quit and I can't we can't we can't quit and they didn't. They kept hammering the dot until they got more and more of the information. They wanted the the Ohio. Environmental Protection Agency started fighting alongside them giving them more leverage. This meant that a major state agency was butting heads with the federal one. Here's Graham Mitchell of the Ohio. EPA again we was not necessarily. You know not telling they weren't that their culture was secrecy insecurity so they were not a culture that was open to like talking about. You know what their problems they had never. They never or have that. They didn't have anybody on staff that was like a communications expert or anything like that. That was not their their their strong suit. But even when the doe started backing down own and acknowledging that maybe it hadn't been as let's say forthcoming as it should have been there was no kun by moment to this day there are people who worked for an adult who seemed to be a strange sort of denial. About what happened there. Remember Bob Kiss Bird. The Guy who started working at for an all right after high school. Here's this talking if I went to work every day and had been told that things were safe and then learn through lawsuits that they weren't and that My bosses knew that I would be angry. I think people were you. Were you angry. NO COASTS I. I felt safe okay. Why so because I felt save didn't feel threatened okay so even though there were scientists pointing to a I real hard violations of these standards? You still thought well. They told me and save so. It's safe well. I think the interview is about over. Okay all right I. I'm not sure I can't continue to be grilled like this next time on accused the government and whoever was running the plant can deny continued to deny the and didn't dive uranium poisoning who died of a task decisions. Well who the person who's serving fairly nearby dot the done show stand up and say anything To bench this season go to www dot blender dot com slash plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM slash P L U S to support the creators of accused directly go to our Patriots Page where Donald get bonus content Dan daily episodes. That's at Patriot dot com slash accused. This this is a special project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA Today network narrated by amber hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil Dibbin and edited by Amy Wilson Intern Mark Rosenberg provided additional research. Music was composed by Andrew Higley to look case documents photos videos and more visit accused accused podcast dot com as noted. Some audio comes from living history projects in the community lands. Transcript to those interviews are available at Cornell Community Alliance Dot Org.

Uranium Lisa Crawford Fernald government Ohio David Environmental Protection Agenc US DOE Graham Mitchell reporter John Hughes University of Cincinnati New York Times Zola Zola Dot David Slash John Hughes
David Kohan

View from the Cheap Seats

1:07:02 hr | 1 year ago

David Kohan

"Termi onto the generational. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Put a light on just heard this mazing, the Sklar brothers. And we're coming off a Super Bowl weekend. We did the interview with our buddy Dave Cohen who is amazing one of the creators of our guests on the show today. One of the biggest clippers fans out there. So we get deep into some NBA talk, which is kind of where the focus then goes now after the Super Bowl the top of the show take minutes to talk about the Super Bowl. Let's wrap this thing with a week to sort of think about things in process. Let's put it in its context because let's talk about the good. And then we'll talk about what was wrong with the Super Bowl. The good is this. We are witnessing the greatest dynasty. Maybe in all of sports. I think you are. And you're watching a performance by quarterback. He's the greatest quarterback of all time. You're watching it in real time. There is nobody better in the history of the game. Then Tom Brady, and you're watching the best coach in history. Six Super Bowl wins out of nine attempts to put that in context for you. The bronx. James has gone to nine NBA championships in Rohe's one three. And I would argue that he's the best player right now. What's the Miskin, greedy? And perhaps I would argue a coach because Michael Jordan went to six finals and one six. Yeah. And that's because he had Phil Jackson. So the combo of an unbelievable superstar at the helm of your ship. Plus a coach who has a brilliant plan and knows how to prepare teams for and that equals victory. So that to watch that is truly truly amazing, and we cannot even for a second denied and for all Boston fans who are Boston sports fans who listen to this show and support this show are living in the greatest time ever for your. I mean, many of you if you're older than if you're than twenty, okay, which I believe that's probably a lot of you. If you're forty or sixty years offered you suffered. And now you have perhaps the greatest twenty years of enjoying of sports of any any cities. I mean, more than New York more than any city in the history of sport. So relations to all of you for everybody else. This was the worst fucking Super Bowl ever. Terrible like terrible beyond belief boring boring at there was a point in time where there were like the same number of pips. Gladys Knight did the national anthem. They're the same number of pips as there were points in that game. And that was deep into the first beginning of third quarter. Yeah. Even in the third quarter. Nothing. I really I tweeted that they turned football into baseball. How dare you? I mean in the Rams sh. Sh we again, this Andre three thousand showed up more than the Rams and he didn't show up. He wasn't even that was the worst performance of any offense. The worst forms of any team. I've ever seen playing Super Bowl vomits. I am angry. I am mad at him. Actually, the truth matter is the Rams defense was played really. Well, they played. So they helped they helped ruin the game too. 'cause like it couldn't open up in any way, shape or form watching that game. I thought to myself I got mad as mad as everyone in New Orleans, and we're in LA people rooting for the Rams, I was like there was a boycott New Orleans only twenty seven twenty eight twenty six percent of twenty six share or whatever it is of TV ratings in in New Orleans. They were boycotting the Super Bowl. And and with good reason. Because if you're if you're a saints fan, you say to yourself, okay? A blown call by referee cost us that game completely costs that game. And then a worse team got into. I'm not saying the saints. Look the saints defense might not. Have been able to hold them the way the Rams in a more fun game. Like if this was the outcome that the patriots won the game. And if they get a ten point win, but it was like fifty to forty to fifty two that would have been exciting that would have been fun. The the game last year with the eagles was fantastic and exciting high scoring and gain the before that with the patriots were down twenty eight and came back and one in the second. Unbelievable. Whether you're a patriots fan or not I was great dramas high drama and excitement for the Super Bowl. We've been this oil by good super this bad terrible on every level. And it's bad decision. That was made felt terrible. Like, I thought Adam LeVine was doing fine. And then he started taking off his clothes, and he's a good. We know him. He's a good, dude. I was like don't don't make. And I I can blame the game for making him do that. That was that was the environment. Was there? One good commercial J. No. The Jason Bateman elevator commercial was was a decent concept. And he's always great. Everything he does. But still grouse Seve calls. Good too. But like we're there member when it was just like there was the commercials weren't good. The whole experience was just people were just upset you Supardi to enjoy yourself. People were just upset this entire game. And I thought okay, this is this is bad for football. This is bad for. It was the lowest rated Super Bowl in the last decade. Yeah. Because I think people just don't really give shit anymore or or they say to themselves. Well, the patriots gonna win and they did in this case. And I got news for you. If Tom Brady doesn't retire and he sticks around and Tom Brady. I said the I think Tom Brady is gonna stick around. I think he's going to get gronk to come back. Gronk I think wants to retire. But I think he gets because that pass to gronk in the second half that set up the touchdown was one of the best passes the over over the shoulder like sort of fake meal. Route pass was also in so good that you you want him back. If ground comes back and the patriots comeback and they make the playoffs. They don't need home. Field advantage. They can beat you anywhere. You are they if they come back and win again and Tom Brady wins his seventh which is entirely possible. His seventh Super Bowl he goes down as perhaps the greatest athlete in any team sport of all time, take individual sports like tennis and whatnot that, but the greatest athlete in the history of sports, you could make that argument about him. And I think he wants that you know, what I mean he wants to plan to mid forties. But so he's forty one he is going to play for another couple of years. I mean, if you're New England do care that they traded Jimmy Garoppolo do care that they got rid of them. No other yet another Super Bowl. And by the way, if you lose Brady, and you have to go into a rebuild if you lose Bill bell, Jake. Who cares? You just had the greatest run ever can't complain about anything ever again. But it is bad for the NFL because what got amplified was how badly the raft. Screw that of because. Truthfully, I do believe it would have been better game. Saints defense, not as good as Ramsey events. I think that would have been more scorch rubies wouldn't have. Folded no cave, like Jared, Goff note, and Sean Payton wouldn't a folded in cave. Like, Sean McVay it would have been a much much much better game. And as a result we all lost except for pats fans and except for Tom Brady. Yep. The bomber bomber because Super Bowl is really. And truthfully. More is on it than anything else football. You had a chance nobody kneeled. Nobody Neil during the I thought someone was going to kneel during the musical performance took the stand. Nobody went come on, man. Someone said this to me falling into me from the Hamal ears from let's eat grandma. Someone said have you ever heard these guys that we are? Now, we are thanks for Senate in fallen into me. Guess what David Cohen coming up after the break. He is so good. We're gonna talk clippers get into basketball with him. Great basketball money tells a great story about the the Molly switch from being a Lakers stopping Lakers fan after growing up. You don't wanna miss it? And then later in the show later in the show Christoph waltz. Yeah. Dick trade for steps. Ms the uniform, we'll be back with more the chiefs red for this. Kline's saps stree-. There is no. My those all right gang there. Lot of things in life than aren't right carpeting showers. It's a stupid idea eating dip with your fingers. I still do that. But shonky style milk. I don't like chunkys down. And I don't like milk in a bag. Remember, we had milk in a bag of Israel. I don't like water in box paying too much for your phone Bill. That's another thing. That's just call eight. Right. But thanks to mitt mobile. You do not have to overpay for wireless anymore. Love this. They reimagined the wireless shopping experience and made it easy and online only which means they can pass -nificant savings directly onto you. And for a limited time, they're offering two months for free. When you buy your first month, that's Twitter. That's a twenty dollar twenty dollars. Total for three months of wireless. Amazing. Switch to it right now. I switched my kids to it. They're on that plan. It's working y'all so much just knowing that you're saving just feels good. It's amazing deal is only here for a limited time twenty dollars. Total gets you three. Months of wireless service with eight gigabytes of four G L T data month, plus unlimited nationwide. Talk and text us your own phone with any mobile plan. You keep your old phone number along with your existing context. You doing this before we're done talking right now, you should sign up for this right now mitt mobile runs on the nation's fastest most advanced LT network. If you're not hundred percent satisfied mint mobile has you covered with their seven day money back guarantee. Take advantage of men Mobile's amazing deal before it's gone pages. Twenty bucks for your first month of wireless and get another two months for free mint mobile dot com slash cheap seats. That's mitt mobile dot com slash cheap seats, go there and get three months premium wireless service for just twenty bucks. We need to save money right now. Everybody's looking for ways to cut that do it this way. Go to mitt mobile dot com slash chief seats, twenty bucks for the first three months. Hey, guys. Welcome back to the show. Sklar brothers air with. Yeah. It's not different hosts from the first segment to now change the break. We always got a dentist yourselves for those just tuning into reset re Rackham our guest is an old friend of ours. Who we got to work with on his show, and we'd wrote a pilot with him and we've been fans of his forever. And he is the biggest clippers fan. We know. David Cohen, welcome to the show. Thanks for coming back. Good to be here. And a little log rolling for a second through it. I was fan of you guys. I from we got that we got that word from somebody who somebody told us I feel like I forgot I forgot who told us that you were a fan. So I remember coming to do the show. It's like, you know, coming from. What was right when we moved from New York to LA we did this before cheap seats before she ninety nine. Yes, we did. It's like, you know, which was on the CBS. Radford lot like next door to the stage that will and grace was on. And how do I know that because we showed up that the week that NBC or whoever the studio was who produce who was lot each of the lead actors, docs, tres remember that high like I mean like just cars were so here we are kids coming from New York. We're like you can get a car. To show you get like, that's it was insanity and an insane. Like flex of monetary muscle. That was shown to us as we went into this show, which with Peter Melman, and it was really funny. And really when I love what did on the show. I mean, we played Siamese twins who were fading Siamese twins that they could get a TV show called good cop bad cop. And I mean, and so then we split up heart like in a moment and the girl that just sit a brilliant writer Seinfeld writer, but it was just amazing. So that was our first kind of interaction, and then we did the show cheap seats, which I know you're huge sports fan and for you too. Because we heard through somebody that you are fan of we're like, all right? Let's please. Can we get on the show? And I don't know if we've ever told you this story, but you may have heard this. But that we so the summer before we did like five episodes of partners, which we loved loved loved doing with you. We had probably one of. Our biggest setbacks in the industry where we were teetering on the edge of being like, we probably don't belong here. So we had gone out for a pilot. That was so funny. It was it was so well written. It was called L Hefei was for Josh Josh Hansen or what's the Hansen? The guy who the guy who's wanna say already down. Evan hansen. I know exactly who you're talking about. I. Yeah. Guys, like, blond hair. Got a new show with his name in it out for YouTube. Yeah. Anyway, solves crimes, but see the show was so funny about a guy, and I'm explaining this whole show because it was just I have to it's about a guy who whose father married remarried a woman who highway with and then he thought at age thirty. He was going to become like a made man and just joined the and the dad kicks him out because the the the new wife doesn't want him around, and they're about to have a baby in there naming him the same name as the kid and say he goes and lives with his old childhood shopping, any starts working on a landscaping company and brother hates him, and he falls in love with the and so funny, and then there's a role in the thing for two identical twins who were all the Landsman twins. Now our friends. Scotland's men is someone we've known forever. This was done through Sony using executive was in both of our weddings. Where like was this written for us because the dialogue was you know, how I mean? So funny how we wrote you wrote stuff on partners, you kind of just. Wrote a paragraph and you're like divided up like do what you do with it. It was so great because it rhythms. It kept your page countdown because you didn't have to do divided the characters. And you knew it was going to go fast. And then we would kind of divvy it up the way you wanted done. So this was really written beautifully. And we're like all my God. We're we're gonna get this. We're gonna get this is a pilot. So funny. It's so good for FOX. Where like this is exactly what we should be doing. They usually don't write roles for twins. Okay. And we got this is tailor-made we show up, and we don't you know, there's some other twins. They're like fuck these guys. Right. They're barely twin fairly and they're bare. We don't nine minutes. That. And so we're like there's no chance here, and then we leave and we noticed that one guy is is there by himself. And then we find out we have a great audition like test, and we did it. Right. Get a call from everybody, Scott as relieving you guys killed it. You guys great. You know, how you feel when you walk out of the room. And you say, okay, we did we did a good job. We know we should probably get it. And then we don't hear from them for a week on here from them. Don't hear from don't hear from them. The guy who was there by himself. They what we found out was that they had shot previously at the director at the director's house. They shot him as both characters split screen and add it together as opposed to you just sitting in a room when Kevin Reilly pot because he doesn't show up to the test. When he pops both things any sees a beautifully edited piece of work with a guy who split screen and has multiple takes to get it. Right resemblance was uncanny. Exactly like himself. Now, granted we were. Pushing a little bit of an older age for this thing. I think he had to be thirty. And we were probably like thirty nine thirty eight thirty nine or whatever. But still we were we didn't get the role more like if we can't get a role for twins. That was well, I we were so depressed and thinking to ourselves this. I don't even know we're going to do. And then three months later, we got again when we heard heard that you were fans of this. I think the role came up. I don't even know how we came in and digital you wrote it for us or it was just it was perfect. And then we got on. And I think we were scheduled to do one episode. And then we got in there and had a really good, and you guys wrote a again, and then you wrote his again, and again, and again, and we did five we shot five or know how many actually aired? But like we shot five of them and work with Jim Burroughs. And you know, you and max it was and the great writing staff that you had and other some really good actors, Michael Yuri. And of course, David marigolds. Yeah. Cromwell's just those guys were incredible and fun to work with and it just. Was it was the exact thing we needed to be pulled out of saved us. You saved on kept us in like a deity. I gave you hope you dead on. So thank you for that. I don't know if we've ever professionally fully thank you for day. Again. Again, the initial fandom was mine. It is conceivable I don't remember this. But it is conceivable that the first time I met you. I might have been nervous. These guys are really accomplished funny. People gonna meet them, well that show cheap seats if ever there was a show that was designed like you fit in the center of the Vendee was that demo you are someone who comedy get get sports get and then gets comedy and would love to see the two of them wrapped up together in a way that pulls. No punches on both makes the most specific sports reference ever. And the most specific comedy reference that doesn't and watched superstars originally, ironically rhino, and and all of those all of those, you know, the wide rewards for to see George are to see Joe Frazier. Frazier phaser trying to swim in a pool and then have us as Howard Cosell. Just start chanting guys Fraser. So joke is designed for wise that for you. Because you probably saw the original Frazier fight where he goes down like nine times against his former formats down. Down goes, right? And he's in a pool, and he could drown. Like, there's no reason why should have been in that. I mean, those little thing. Also, like the like a joke like this that we made when we did the Mike Tyson Buster Douglas fight, which was just a crazy fight in the Tokyo dome. And there's a moment where right after the fight after Mike Tyson gets up, and they signal the Buster Douglas, you know, he's count out and Busta when somebody from Mike Tyson's entourage comes over and gives him a hug like kind of hip like whisper something in his ear and our joke was to do that guys was being like a thought you want. One. But like. Like, you understand the entourage of around fighter. Like, this guy's my meal ticket. I gotta tell them you did. Well, he just got his ass kicked. How do you spin it with your in guys entre to? Well, I love we we've we've since that time. I mean, our friendship has grown, and we've just gotten to know and love you so much and we've gotten to experience a lot of sports with you. You're so generous, you have these amazing tickets to the clippers because you've been you were a fan as we were fans that was the only ticket we could get when we moved to Los Angeles Lakers. Tickets with Kobe and shack were just exorbitant amounts of money, but you're on the clippers tip and train in the CARA came in Corey Magadan, like breathe at like those years even earlier in the sports arena years, which is Richardson years and even before then the Mark Jackson Dominique Wilkins after host. Surgery. Yeah. You know, he was just fat uses Fadhil Kinsey, those teams were so dreadful. But, but you know, you could buy a quarter share with your buddies on your PA salary and go to the sports arena and watch you crystal NBA players play, right? You know was the main thing Michael Jordan came there every year. You would see the bet you would see the best of what that league had to offer ends needing your team being the mand, but you were watching to see the to say, I saw Scottie Pippin and Michael Jordan play live in really see alive. And you're not from Chicago. That's exciting to me is great. And the other thing was so I was working as a as a production as an assistant to a movie director producer Pollock at the time. Sydney. Pollack had a production company. Just to move us. Also, great actor an amazing person. An amazing. He's so good as his agent. He was he was he was great at everything he did. And he was a great boss. I was a terrible assistant and a lovely person. And I miss him. I miss my he he I worked for him for two years as a bad assistant. And he just sort of kept me around just because he was a decent human being and end. It's amazing. I've absorbed so many of his things just unconsciously that utilize now, and but he had a party Mark Rosenberg producing partner. Also, a really good guy and Mark Rosenberg had Laker tickets that he never ever used had really good seats and go at six fifty five. I would go to his assistant, Linda and say, they are they using them. She's if she would say, no, you can take them, and I would go down to the forum and watch Laker games while I had my my clipper seats as well at the sports arena. And it was it was different. It was different. There was something much more by LA standards. Hardscrabble about the clipper crowd. Yes. They were suffering. They weren't attractive, you know, but they cared about basketball. Yeah. That seemed to me a difference. If ABA that felt like what an ABA team in a city that had an NBA team would have been it. Did it did? It was really second tier? You know, it was you go through that and stay and stay. And then of course, the other thing was the Lakers had this seventeen year old rookie who came in to a playoff game against the Utah Jazz and the game went to overtime and this kid shut three airballs in overtime. And I'm like, I hate that. I hate him. That was my that was my insurance that was my real that was my when I really sense of who he was. And you're saying Koby four something when everybody was saying don't it. Yes. That feels out of character for him never have collar again. Sometimes no means no, don't shoot. Yeah. That is. Yeah. There was definitely and identity of that Laker team that if you were not in that moment like a have and sort of part of like already the establishment of Los Angeles felt left out. Right. And I and bear in mind, I grew up a Laker fan. Like, I when I was when I was eight years old the Lakers had thirty three game win streak going seventy one seventy one seventy two sees at the Bryce, bro. I was probably seven. That's exactly what else cinder pie. I mean. I ran home from Hebrew school turned on the TV. And saw that the the Lakers were losing to the bucks that incredible team that Lucious Allen, Bob, dander, yelled, good riddance. Well that was on. I'm talking about that bucks team. Yeah. And I wept bitterly like I wept bitter. You know, you're Fantis and then throughout and once they got once they got that the guy who vanquished them once they got Kareem for like Brian winters, and Dave Meyers that trait is like, oh my God. I can't believe our luck. And and magic comes and and wins that first year. I'm like I am diehard Laker fan. This is this is my team and throughout the eighties. When I was in on the east coast in college. I thought I was the LA guy at an an a small eastern liberal arts college. And you know, people would look at me, and I would say the Lakers. That's who. I am. Okay. That's that's my identity understand. Right. Well, right. So I I. Defied strongly with that team. So that that was that was a painful death. My Laker fandom, you know, but it became. Starkly clear to me when really the final death knell was I went to the playoff game against the Sacramento Kings. Like hated rivals at that time that the Chris Webber. Those were those were the the one point. No, the Bank street writer, the apple two C of the Golden State Warriors. They were fun. They could've all around. They actually had joy they behind their bad. He krill motion offense back door that was all pickerel printing coach who came in and installed that that offense, you know, just really sort of the precursor to what what what? Yeah. But so I'm at that game. And it's like, I think it's game six and. And I'm watching this. And I find myself involuntarily rooting for Sacramento played like a team that shack shack and Coby were in the middle of their feud. Right manley. This this intolerable really, but I'm still a Laker fan. Right. Because I have been my whole life. And then it comes down to the absolute last play and Vlada tips the ball out and Robert ory gets and hit and the place erupts, and I'm crestfallen. Like, I feel myself as ING moment. And I and I said, oh, I have to acknowledge that. I no longer love this team. In fact, there I'm I'm officially clipper fan, unofficially. Laker hater was that was the Mike can't believe you had an actual nobody in his test. Yep. Yep. We talk about all the time though. It's it's. You know, there's a term in basketball the ball don't lie Rasheed while bottom line. If a bad father, I yelled Baldoni lie at a kid's game at my son's go when the rebel the bad, call son and this other kid with one second left in the half the other coach called a time out. They rolled the ball up. My son put his hands up his kid jumped into my son at half court and act like he was gonna shoot a shot when he couldn't have made it on they call the foul a shooting foul he missed all three and I turn to the ref and I was like Baldo. Kids game. Just don't say it like at discoveries ballpit. Nobody it's your emotions don't lie if we're Rams fans. Because Rams I think I'm becoming one in a weird. I am too. Wow. That's interesting. You guys are in the opposite side of that. As I am because the the LA Rams left, Los Angeles. I mean, this this we can we can shell this conversation. But they left Los Angeles to come to St Louis your hometown and then one Super Bowl, and then left Saint Louis to come back to Los Angeles's cures. Uniter? We have different perspective. I was explaining this to a guy we just an interview with a guy who's a Boston sports writer. He and he was writing this thing, and he had gotten a bunch of like, this is we're recording this full disclosure. This episode will drop after the Super Bowl recording this interview before this bozo. I was asked like, you know, he's got a bunch of Boston like comics and people and he said, I would love to get an LA perspective. And I said, I'm a weird perspective. Because you know, I we we were full. Football cardinals fans deep. Our dad had wrote not one nineteenth road nineteen. That's where Wayne yard line cardinal side. Thirty rose up on drunk guys from the Italian restaurant on the hill. They were there. I remember a guy we never forget this. There's a guy who is so drunk on Halloween. He carved out a pumpkin and ward on his head and then like fully carved out. So there's like pumpkin pulp as hair his effort that. And of course, lost the game on a horrible plant that they gave up like a they were winning by three or five even and then give a touchdown touchdown on a kickoff return as time ran out. He took the pumpkin through it on the ground and smash. We're like four five six years old. So we see this in forever. This guy with red hair was known as pumpkin head his name. He was pumpkin. So and we would go I remember the guys in front of us made Bill woes at Bill from Hamilton hats and gave us hatfill Seymour and his son played for Michigan played tight end for Michigan later. Like all these weird people that we got to know we five and two five and eleven six and ten four into every year because we had Dallas and we had Philadelphia. And we had a giant giants. Joe thighs men for. I mean, we had the we were against we were hands east. It was like we ever win. We'd never gonna win. And so that's what we knew. And so we only knew suffering. We only and then we leave and then the Rams come to Saint Louis, and we say to ourselves. I mean, this is we didn't really know much about the Rams. But then the Kurt Warner greatest show on those teams remember thinking, this is our Saint Louis team. I remember happy for Saint Louis, but never but never being like it Sunday. I gotta watch the Rams except when they were in the Super Bowl. I was rooting so hard for the Rams against Tennessee. And that Super Bowl that they won. I was like I was one they lost to the patriots on a somewhat controversial. And I was really upset. So I was like okay now, I guess I'm a fan. But then they kind of sucked for the next couple of years. And you like Saint Louis like they weren't good to Saint Louis. They didn't work well with the city there was this weird vibe in Saint Louis, of course, wants the Ferguson stuff started happening in the players were being outspoken about that. And then they were getting backlash from the fans that made me hate Saint Louis for how they were treating these players who were like coming out of the tunnel with hands up to kind of like show solidarity to the guy who got shot. So like there was a lot of controversial stuff. And then STAN Kroenke who owns the team who would do anything to like up? His like ranking in the Forbes five hundred according to our friend, Kevin Wheeler, who's an amazing sports guy in Saint Louis who's like he would shit down his mom's neck, if it will that can move me up from twenty nine to two twelve minute in reality. That would move him fuss by they're actually trying to think better than I mean, he you. So our attitude is like, I don't know. I don't know how. But I remember we were at an event in Saint Louis like, I don't know. Now, it's like seven or eight years. Ago benefit that we did where we met less need who's the GM for the Rams this like really good-looking southern dude who's like Oklahoma. I think he played football for Oklahoma. Maybe great hair and like beautiful wife. Nice, dude. So like gentlemanly like just a great guy. I think he like is the one who revived the falcons and took them. So he's like we're going to be good in a couple years. He's like just trust me. We're not there yet. We're going to be good. I don't think he could have possibly predicted what Sean McVay would have done. But like he was right? So you do have those moments where you're not a fan unless so when this is how I knew I was a clippers fan when the clippers blew that series against Houston. A couple years ago we were in Omaha. We were all doing a show and they lost that game. I was as angry as if university of Michigan lost. I was angry if the cardinals lost in the world where you there, you know, that I was there to get that game. Three one feel up three. The one to lose up like eighteen or twenty harden on they were up there up by nineteen going into the fourth quarter harden was on the bench. Dwight Howard was on the bench Corey brewer. And Josh Smith won that game for Houston against Chris Paul Blake Griffin. The and you just it was this sucking sound, right? Like, we're all of a sudden you realize there's nothing they can do about it. Nobody can stance the bleeding. It's going to happen is happening. It's inevitable. It was it to me. It's it was franchise defining. Yeah. It really was. That was a if you can trace from that series. And that loss at up three one you should've won that series. You should've gone on conference fine. I knows what what happened in that next. You never know with a little momentum. And you guys have all the pieces to be great for it to kind of go that route at that point. That was the beginning of the end in the unraveling that franchise shore, which we thought they're done. They lose Blake Griffin. And they lose the Andre Jordan. They lose Chris Paul. They lose, you know, Austin rivers, which he is really just getting but also rivers, actually. Right. Well for. Yeah. JJ Rettig, you lose all these guys. The Michigan guy. What's his name who went to Michigan who backup like just cho- Jamal? Crawford. Crawford is all these guys. And you basically lose the team that took you that consistently perennially took you to the playoffs you didn't win. But like it. It was fifty plus win. That was the absolute high up three one against using going into that game was the absolute high watermark of the franchise. And then everything the wave broken everything. But now, doc I feel like doc is happier with this. He's happier. Great been. So this to me is the most amazing thing about sports is that sometimes through subtraction. There is a dish in sometimes you take away pieces and players that the fan base says this what ownership has to deal with in GM's have to deal with. That like we can't see running back Todd Gurley. Who is really great. But had that crazy injury. Whereas knee was like a grapefruit this year and you say to yourself. All right. He ends injured. Again, we might have to deal him and people like what he's gonna guys the franchisees lady on bell. They're saying themselves leaving bell. We can't live without leaving staring contests. We can't live with them. And then all of a sudden Connor comes in. And you're like, well, he's actually doing pretty well or J Anderson comes in your like, he's kinda maybe it's the system the system. So you say yourself, okay. We gotta build a system that is in player because a guy could get injured or you lose Blake Griffin. You lose the Andre Jordan. You lose all these players. Here's how the clippers are going to win six games this year. But look at her in eighth spot right now as we speak. It's. They're all good players. But no stars cast-offs guys playing contract year's guys who are motivated and good guys. You know, and none of them are ball stoppers. Like, like, Blake was a stopper. Chris Paul the ball is in his hands. You know, fifteen eighteen seconds every possession and the ball goes into Blake in the post. It doesn't really come out again for a while. Now the ball moves all of these guys and and defensively they're so much more locked in and when they're not locked in. They lose games. So as docs team my quest. Yes. Doc, certainly more so than before. Right. And and and they all seem to they have tough gritty, they those those Blake Chris Paul was the toughest clipper, and he's you know, he's six feet, and he's constantly chirping. And he's annoying. He's annoying to everybody in that team. And now you have Patrick Beverley and mantras Herro, and these guys these guys are Herrell to me my favorite. But to me was like the sixth or seventh man off the bench. Always and you say to yourself. This guy is literally a caring when did you become better Kenneth freed? Right. You know? And he he's it's you look up and suddenly it's like, oh, you have twenty points, eight rebounds, and you didn't come in until the end of the first quarter. And now that second unit is an amazing unit. But that seems like they get killed on the. Offensive glass herald, six seven and a half. And he's playing like he's sick. A why do I six ten to me because the bang long arms and great length? But he's one of those guys you just don't know. How tall he is your like he plays bigger than he is. Yes. And Patrick Beverley is a beast on defense. All those are all heart. You know? I mean, they play. Can you imagine? I'm not gonna say, it's it's but imagine a Patrick Beverley, Chris, Paul patio. Beverley Chris Paul Blake Griffin de'andre Jordan like that team. Suddenly is defense. Again, you've got a lawyer guy. Lou. I mean that team would have just been an incredible force. Maybe maybe I mean, I think you have to you have to conform to Chris Paul style of play if he's going to be your teen leader, and that was problematic. I know for Blake. And and when they said when the when they gave Blake the max contract and said, you're clever life, I thought to myself well that to problem. Because you can't you're not going to go to the Western Conference finals of Blake as your best player. You're just not. And I don't think you are. He's your second best player either. I mean as good as Blake Griffin is he's not the guy you go to the fourth quarter because he doesn't do. Well, he's kind of almost he's too thoughtful and heading away he thinks too much you'd happening in the fourth quarter. And he's a really good guy. Like he's rate person. He has you have to be a Kobe Bryant airball three times because you're just a stone cold killer. And you you kind of have almost Fred you almost have personality Dismore. Yeah. Almost think of yourself in a way that is all great ones Lance tiger, Michael Jordan their path. You think Jordan has friends? He does not have France. He has acolytes right. Yeah. He doesn't have anyone who's like he can just explain how why he's feeling vulnerable or you know, what? I mean, there's. No, there's something there's a chip or some kind of rage or some kind of sociology that makes them raise. It makes them great. It makes them uniquely designed to be great at what they are. And then they're blessed with having a body type that allows them to do the things that they can plug that that desire into and then then as a result, you lose all interpersonal relationships, you don't have a better life. Whereas I'm like Blake Griffin's gonna have a better life. Like, he's got friends. He's funny. He's people like him. You know, he walks down walks into enjoyable. There was something that happened after oh, he was like talking about like, we need to focus more. This interview that happened in Detroit recently. So we got to focus more as a team. They wanna game down the stretch. Like, we're just losing focus and then one of the players to fuck with them. Reggie Jags yet just walked up to the camera and just kind of looked at and like it was, but it was to fuck with him in a really funny way. And you're like, no, even though that's kind of annoying. He did that to their friends like that's what you do to your friend and. Chemistry there in like an interesting way. But I hear you weren't gonna come out of the west with that it I love Blake. I wouldn't trade him straight up for Tobias Harris right now, I just wouldn't Tobias fits this system. So but at all, right? So let's say you're eighth or seventh. You're gonna have to face the Golden State Warriors or the rockets or somebody you're not gonna make it out of that series. But how do how does this team? And then we'll take a break. But how does this team push over the hump it? It's one of the teams that has huge caporal. You're gonna have big you have to sign Leonard. Right. There's talk of that. There's talk that. I mean, it's possible. I wish we had something to trade for vanity Davis had gone all the way and become a free agent. You know after next season, it's conceivable. But now now he's to the Lakers. I really think it's going to. So then what happens if he goes to the Lakers and Clayton? There's talk of Klay Thompson coming out of the Lakers. If he Andy Davis. Klay Thompson come down to play with LeBron. There's an there might have becomes the new Frankenstein. You know champion. Yeah. But chemistry is a fragile thing. I mean, and LeBron's one of the few people can impose chemistry, you know. But true. But you know, it again, it it might work out. You know, I want you wonder about I thought Boston was going to be the best team in the east side sold based on what happened last year it, but it's carrier Ving are you better with them or without him? I mean, I it's really was if I was on a two on oh Breyer two on one break with Kyrie Irving. I was way I walked to the bench. This this motherfucker the earth is flat. I can't take a bounce pass from him. You know, I didn't I couldn't tell whether he was just goofing on that smart. He's he's not. I mean, he's not goofing on that. I'm like is the ball. You're bouncing flat. I want you to tell me that I want you to answer. That would be like me telling you what it is. It's unreal it it's unreal. And it's also weirdly dangerous, but like a you're talking about the situation of the ball going somewhere and sticking. That's a guy who the ball goes to him, and it sticks great finisher around the room one of the best ever. You ask yourself how in the world is he getting his house? He getting his shot off between the hands that are there to block, and he lays the ball. So high off the glass, you're like that's going go over the backboard. But then it drops unbelievable. But that's not the team that to talk to the east finals last year. The team was boggles here. Boggles airbags air cutting Jason TAY. I mean that talking about trading Jason Tatum to get Anthony Wright is that a better, I mean eighties mazing. And but is that what's gonna put you over the top? I still think Boston is probably going to win in the east. That's what I think. I mean, I do think Toronto's amazing, and that's probably going to be the matchup walk as the best in the NBA walkie does too. But entity co cannot he's got no outside shot at all. He's like the people need understand. He's like a slightly more athletes. Ben Simmons Ben Simmons in the playoffs is a liability. He cannot shoot. 'cause if you double them up or push him out away from the basket, or do whatever it takes to get him to not or give him his twenty seven twenty eight points instead of forty or whatever is he cannot shoot he can't. And you need to be able to knock down shots. That's in in the playoffs. Every weakness you have exposed. It's why guy like Joel Embiid is so good because he can do everything that the Greek freak can do. And the rim every drain three. Yeah. I think I agree with that I-. Chris Middleton, can I mean, they have shooters can shoot. I mean, they they're good. They're good. Okay. So they're in. Okay. So one of those three teams is going to emerge. Okay. I think we can we're pretty aware unless Indiana makes a crazy run, but one of those three and can't anymore. So sad. I know so one of those three teams will emerge, and I believe will create will be a more formidable than the past from the east. I believe it'll be more formidable do who comes out of the west is a Golden State again worse. You do you think? I mean, there's unfortunately, there's nobody that can there's nobody can beat them at this point used that. And that team no way. No, no way because Houston's whole thing is let go out we have to outscore every team we play against because you know, that lost Trevor REEs lost Luca Mahmoud day. Those were there to best wings like the Kansas City Chiefs like if they're lucky enough to hit all there. Shots and have the ball the end of the game. They maybe they beat you. But if not everything has to go, right? When you see harden scoring fifty eight in them losing to the Brooklyn nets. You like there's a problem. There is a Royal. What would you rather have three guys on your team scoring twenty or hard scoring fifty eight three guys team scoring twenty beats fifty. Here's what I think. I think you know, Capellas out. Chris Paul was out. Erik Gordon was out up until you know, that that whole time harden had to carry that burden having he had to now when you have all those guys coming back I- Houston's really really good hardened to me is the the second best offensive to guard in history. I don't think there's a he's better than Koby. He just is. I mean, you look at Kobe's season the season where he said it's time for me to win MVP. And that is my singular goal this year because that's the way. And that year, he averaged thirty five point four points. But harden is averaging more he's taking four fewer shots game. Yeah. Is your levels? I mean, it's he's better. He's he's a cat burglar that guy I don't understand. He's not believable. He's because you know, what it is. Because a pitcher it's like a pitcher whose throws an amazing hundred and two miles per hour and also has a killer change up. So you you are you going to go out, and you go out and stick them and try to keep them from shooting three because the second you deem up out there just score. So you you're gonna lose either way you're gonna guess wrong teams also feels that would be really into alternative comedy. If you just look at me like does he have like a Wilco album like if this guy lady? Absolutely ending Matic to me thing would surprise me. I have okay. My the let's get the soon. We'll take a break. And the James harden story. Okay. So we'll take a quick break. Yes. Will do crickets talk. I cannot separates in this. And does this make me in a weird way this girl's like only college? But I cannot set listen to C P. This is clear I played it for my girls. Be like this type of music. You guys have to start is it appreciate that. You like Arianna ground AP should do all that other stuff. I really do. Appreciate you. Gotta be up on the pops up your name Claro or foreclosure, it's Clara C L A R O put out this. It's called pretty girl. This is I mean, she made us in highschool now, she's like in some liberal arts college in the east, anyway, this is pretty aware here with one of the prettiest girls, we know David Cohen. We'll be back right after that more changes. Guys. Welcome back to the show. We wanna remind people tonight. We're in Portland when this drought as drops. And I were in Portland helium to shows tonight. Great. Touche's tomorrow. Thanks, everyone who came out last night in our time travel and David Cohen is helming the reboot. I wouldn't even call it a reboot, but the bringing back of will and grace I was that. Have you enjoyed that? I know you have to bring those people back and every time like like the empire actor gets beaten up by a bunch of maggots. And it's a homophobic thing. I'm like we need this show. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's it sucks. I wish this show was irrelevant. But it's not because obviously we deal with stuff all the time. And what a great mouthpiece. It is kind of amazing the forces that have been unleashed. You know, over the course of the last few years. But sometimes I think maybe the exposure of it is a good thing to say that we're not done yet. Right. We still have worked to get complacent. Yeah. It's almost like a sports thing. Don't get complacent with the way, you're not that good. Like, there's also. Always worked to be. There's you can always spend fifteen more minutes on your jump shot. We all shoot a hundred more free. Throws you always we're not. We're not getting overly repetitive. Here. We need to get. This message out that if you're gay you're person, you're a human being I and whatever your sexual orientation is that's to me. Why loved why we love will and grace, and I've always loved it. 'cause we're like, it's funny. I that's from our minds where like if we had to list what the show is. It's a funny show with great characters unbelievable situation. Also brings up a lot of like gay issues and tells you about that world is a window into that world for us since we're because we're not appreciate that. I mean, and also it started out, as, you know, the idea was we we needed to replace a romantic comedy we needed place. Madam. So this is just a romantic comedy between will and grace with an insurmountable obstacle. Right. Which is that will get they can never say that that will never. And that's what keeps romantic comedies going is the obstacle that prevents them from getting together. So yeah, they're perfect for each other for the fact that they are not brilliantly led by four of the best on sommelier in a in a comedy that you will ever get together. It's it is you don't you? Don't get that. It's it's the four best players and their and the chemistry is really good. All right. I have a question like the Beatles. It's like you're doing a show for the beehive a question, and you may not even be able to talk about this. And just tell me I can't talk about this. I can't do this whenever messing and like Susan serandon going at it on Twitter. Like, what do you just you just walk away? Can you be like they don't get? What do you do? How do you handle that? Because. Yes, they were huge. But they were young people who were unknowns pretty much like when when they came up. So you knew them when they were not kids, but just starting out and then over time there have mouthpieces, and they're huge stars. Now. Right. How do you handle that? To me. It's you know, it she's titled to do that as long as anything that doesn't that doesn't affect or harm the show. I I like. No problem. You know? And I it doesn't that doesn't seem to have had an adverse effect on at all on the show. You know, like, are you? Okay. Going at this or no. I mean, can you even have a conversation with her to be like, what's what's happening? I I mean, just it's more just sort of comments, you know. And it's and you should bring serandon on his guest star. That would be unbelievable. That would be that would be a Rulli. Unbelievable. You bring us on. Right. If you bring on, but and the storyline we'd pitches that one of gave the other one is into and they fall in love with the wrong one. And so we have to like, I would absolutely do that. Let's do that. So. Also calls into question. Their gate are like their ability. What they ruined as gay or straight it because everything about the straight one way. Who they are as people. And of course, you know, it'd be to me that would. The other is and I don't know if this is the is, you know, they've never gone out with twins. You know, they've never like grace with Lennon will that's but again to not know which one which one to really think that the other one is and the other one is in and you can't make somebody really. And it's it's the classic nature versus nurture. You say it brings up all of that stuff to me would just be at the heart amid. Okay, we pitch that hard. But bring obviously we know which one of you to play the game in which wouldn't be the straight win. So. Yeah. Ready in the already hand already handled. But the idea that like you bring serandon on would be like news beyond that. That would be incred. I've always thought about the meta kind of casting choice or casting Warren Beatty and Shirley MacLaine as lovers. I know that you have to consider the real life circumstance mak- documentary of the making of this, and that becomes your heart of dark film every minute every second of behind this. Anyway, that's my that's my pitch you. All right. Well, we have you here. And we also have some crazy stories that happened in the world of sports this week, and we should get into them because I would love to hear your get your take on this this gym member. The the piggyback bandit Jamuna that guy. There is a kid. There was a guy who showed up at high school basketball games. This was his sexual fetish. And he would pretended to be a trainer on one of the ten and no-one kind, you know in high school like they're like who's that kid? Oh, maybe he goes to school guy. He works in the audiovisual. There's so kind of like a big high school guy about two hundred twenty pounds overweight square. Of stocky guy. And when a team would win he would jump onto the backs of the players, and like, they would give back the piggyback man didn't basketball. At some like, even though there's really nothing sexual about it. It said I probably there's something wrong with our time though that fetish gut refined and refined and refined. That's what it became. It's so you can imagine a fetish somebody has had it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So that was his faddish was maybe like the thrill of victory matched with jumping on is school, boys better. So so his back is no, no, no. This is just a story about a guy who played high school basketball, but turned out to be twenty three years old. I played high school. Yes. To conceal folder twenty twenty. Twenty five I heard this store. So in that story there is so as person's going through and playing his desire to be successful. At something is forcing him to keep the secret from these people that he's gaining tremendous trust that is super intense. He's not even trying to break up a drug. I mean, it's like the whole member of the Daniel Monte thing they have been in. And I think like he then the the postscript of that is Daniel Monte like married one of his teachers when he was sitting together with like a twenty nine year old teacher. And so like coche issue. He went the other direction. He is. He's gotta swing back. This way. Find a happy medium. I gotta the age of point denim. Monte will find age appropriateness. But to me, it is I think it underscores the idea of the notion of how important and how big these high school kids, and with recruiting into social media, and all the there is a there's a desire to be known and famous in like almost a YouTube and way. Yes. I mean, the other the other aspect of that story, of course, is what you're saying is there's a vital lie. That's at the heart of this of everything I do get and therefore everything that comes out of my mouth this essentially alive. And it's it's it's like that's the point of the romantic comedy. Where like there's a point where in the someone finds out. And then you gotta come clean to the woman that you yet she fell in love with you. And now she has to deal with these feelings, and she's been lied trade. You're not who she was. But who did she fall in love with we? Twenty this moving. We got twenty pages to figure it out. I'm gonna cast Shirley MacLaine as the twenty year old black basketball star. How about that? Maybe that was in one of her previous life. It is really fascinating though. And there is this thing about, you know, high school talent looking forward to because there's that many step you taking college and then looking forward to NBA and like just wanting that glory by that time, they'll be like who cares? If you're gonna get found out like if if and I'll say this because we'll like if you take dick pic on your the it's gonna come out, and we have a story that about that in women world women's soccer in England. But like where that actually came out if you take it if they're naked pictures of you taken by your boyfriend's they're gonna make their way up, right? So if that we know is true you're gonna get found out that you're twenty five in highschool had guests the object. Well, so. Losing Matombo struck me as somebody who is always much older than he said, right? Yes. Satchel page was the was the original like forty nine. How old is much older than I say there have been instances where that has proven effective. But not in this day. You can't do it anymore. What was the central page story that they told us that the release museum the guy runs nearly smooth Bob kendricks, kendricks, or Kendrick? He's he said show page got pulled over for speeding ticket in court. The the judge is he's going to hit him hard. It's like fifty fifty dollars for your speedy. Don't have speed in this area ever again. And we're gonna make view and settle page takes Andre and the guys like fifties. That's for next. Yeah. Walked out of there. Sach? In credit? All right. Let's next door. It's crazy as well. Wife insisted hall of Famer Brian was Brian Leetch hockey player for the day. Several from the Rangers settled their upper east side bar scrap case on Friday with violation. Lease Mary, Beth Leach in tracing Murphy, forty nine and forty four that's like around our age nine and forty four cop to disorderly conduct and we'll have to do private counseling sessions each condition. The deal assists, accused of attacking bartender and other employees at brandies piano bar on east eighty four on may twelfth of last year, the sister of a high-class, so they literally pulled the guy shirt. I mean, the gloves were off really we're saying, which by the way, what do you think about that in a sport like hockey's like we're gonna let you hit each other until you get tired. And then we're bringing the NBA if somebody takes a step on the court now, I mean you remember the eighties when guys would square off in the lane nightly. Now, if you take one step off your mind, you're fine. I don't know what self-respecting bartenders going to file charges against two women. Stor no inlet unless they're like, you know, em sisters, right? Like if they're in the bartenders defense he sustained a cut to his head in his shirt was ripped in. He is suing the wealth of it. So that's the other thing is like you brought this on yourself. He's a hall of fame hockey player. Probably has a lot of money. I'm now going to get you. So you did it like how Leach how much is he like just let me be a hall of it. Once you get in the hall of fame. Don't you feel like that's it? I'm okay. You want to Emmys have you wanna you've one have you not yet worn AMI? So you say to yourself I've done it just you got to say to your wife in your daughter's don't get in a bar phone beat up any bar gold. We're fine. I've done what I needed to do our fine. Good here that maybe he has maybe there's a little bit of prime like I married. Well, I you know, I don't with somebody steps. Thank you. David cohen. Thank you very much. All right there. There we go. We didn't even get to the dick pic. No, we didn't. I cannot believe that that was sixty two minute. I know the we could talk to you for this is why we've been wanting to get you back on the show. Everyone watch will and grace this season support, David. He's awesome. And maybe that soil it'll make its way on if you if if something even remotely close to that makes that you can say I was there. I was here for the original the origins German. Exactly, we come back special guests. This is another artist again, Tom my daughters. Get to know the these are younger, and they're like, how do you know so much about young girls who do rock and run? Then at that point. I'm like dear Homer, don't try. This is snail mail and speaking Trump people like jumping on high school basketball. Hey, listen to jumping Java baggage oven on Spotify piggybacking on Spotify. We back more from the heath right after. Hey, guys, what about to view from the cheap seats? David cohen. I'm acing. I mean, a better person you will not find in this season Mench. Great writer town such talented due to watch that guy. Just run a room. Amazing. Well, it is our sites are turned towards the NBA and huge NAS Lester trade happened to also do that aren't in the mix. But like, I think this trade makes both teams a little better. And I think it definitely makes Dallas Dallas this year because he's out the unicorn is porzingas injured for the rest of the year. But next year if they can hold onto him, and it looks like he might stay longtime Luca Danni each and porzingas on the same team. Tim Hardaway junior. It's it's an intimate pain a tramp Zoya lane down in. That's how foreign it is down there. Let's call our friend Christoph waltz because I know he's going to have something to say about this is he happy is not. Let's let's let's call them. L? Hello, Chris fits, the Sklar brothers. Are you? And ran t-. It's great to hear your voices. How are you? We're good. We're wondering how you're doing because of this crazy shakeup your favorite player of all time. The porn is now on the Dallas Mavericks. What's going on? I'm I shot. You are. It's all it's a war wind hot stove is cooking know that. No, one knew that it was going to get quite this high think. Yes. So it's exciting. And also, what is a maverick other than you know, the recently deceased, John McCain. And just enormous. Huge. Patriot. I'm excited because Texas is a state were were horses can run free. And we all know that this corn need some face Theron. And you put him in the game with some of these players. I think that he Luca Danni trick will be something truly magnificent and two men game bringing the EU to the Lone Star state. I mean, we nobody supports foreigners more than the southern part of the United. I mean, if this other Dallas is is wide open openness, am I right? It's an urban place. And I think you're going to see that Kristaps is going to show everyone there that things can be exciting that their new and different. And look you have jerk defense Keith or his one of my countrymen. That makes me proud. I remember jerk when he was just playing. Pop Warner's and being half that ensure many so so they definitely win. He's not gonna play this year. But he's gonna play later. I mean, what happens to the next you stop following the Knicks altogether. I mean, are you down work as city what what's your attitude? I mean, I I been upset with Mr. thorough and for a long time. And so I'm torn about all of this. I've never been to Dallas I know which from movies huge fan of chafe K. Because how often do you get to see Tommy Lee Jones, you know, dressed up in these kind of Mishal costume in these New Orleans canal and all of this. It's exciting for me. I will go to I've only ever been in the airport. Timely Jones with a Perm is always special choice with the prime. And so need to go there. And you just see this book depository need to go to the grassy knoll and just feel what it is. Obviously barbecue. Obvious brasilia's. And I hope this doesn't come off insensitive. Dallas is a town that supports or or has a history of having sharpshooter. So to have him join in that long set. Yes. That is exactly how I feel about it. I only wish that I thought of that exact joke in because that's a great. That's a great topical American history. Joked that is across over into basketball. Thank you. Well, well, listen, we are excited to have you have a new region of the country for you to put your focus on. It's maybe a more American region than New York, which has the video of the stadium is American Airlines arena. I think it in Miami. American Airlines like I'm excited to meet. Mark Cuban American hero of mine. The fact loved the shark tank what better place than America Dabbagh hero. Who is a Cuban? I mean is that. Yes, embargo has been lifted as far as I'm concerned and between this interesting Michael Rapaport on the street. This is an exciting day. Well, thank you so much. We appreciate it. Good luck. With all. Exciting a brand new day for unicorns everywhere. Okay. Well, we love you Christoph while it's all the several movies. And I'm sure you shooting all at one time right now, I'm on I'm on the set of heat full nine as we speak to perfect. Wow. Wow. There you go Chris off. Well, it's a big fan of Kristaps. Porzingis has always in so many ways represented him in the way that he supports the NBA. He's gonna move to Dallas. He's gonna move his allegiances down to the Lone Star state. Hey, we're going to be in Portland this weekend at helium, please come see us. If you get your tickets, rob Neier who is on this podcast of baseball tonight. He's going to come out and see Heo. We're gonna be there to shows tonight Friday at helium on ninth in Hawthorne to shows tomorrow night. Please come see us. We got great merchant. Great stuff. We love you guys waterfalls. We have punch waterfall shirts and half. We're going to have them all and a whole bunch of new dates that we're putting up on our side superstars dot com. Check it out. We'll see next week. It was a good shoe.

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Chapter 8: The nuclear wrap-up

Accused

49:22 min | 10 months ago

Chapter 8: The nuclear wrap-up

"Previously on accused. Did you talk to Charlie about anything. That will revise the day's box disappeared. Hang up and left a message. Fairly recently am returning a call. I've gotten from this number. Hey Hey I'm amber I'm a reporter the choir I've been trying to reach Charlie Pellett leap record your message when you finish recording. Do you know that in some of the trials. It is accepted as fact that you did think he was depressed. I remember hunt and this is accused mysterious death but David Fox a month after David box vanished while working the phonology uranium processing plant. He was officially fired from his job. There it was a bit of housekeeping really to allow the company to clear out the two lockers he'd had on the property. They inventoried the belongings. He'd left behind the long-sleeved t-shirt and cut off Jean shorts that he'd been wearing earlier in the day his wallet wait hairbrush size. Ten Gym shoes a pair of black socks and empty red and white playmate cooler sixty I five cents in change. All that remained of David were things. His kids divvied up these belongings as well as the ones pulled from the house he had inherited from his parents. That would soon be reclaimed by the bank with no body to bury and no answers to why their lives had been up ended so suddenly they tried to plot on. Never Forget about my dad. I think about him every day. I told you I have this baseball Mitt from when he was a kid on the dashboard of my truck. Look at it as I'm driving down the road I see it every day. The box kids were forced to face their grief and as news of Ronald Safety issues surfaced in the plants. Closing drew drew nearer their hopes of learning. What happened to David? Scattered like so much uranium dust and this episode. We'll do our best to wrap up two stories stories. The plants enter investigations. Accused is brought to you by MHM. Madison Reed Madison Reed at home. 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That's code accused at Madison. Dash Reed Dot Com as the nineteen nineties neared. It was clear the more than forty forty year Cold War was coming to an end. President Ronald Reagan had used the eighties to ramp up the. US's nuclear warhead efforts in the hopes of more or less intimidating the USSR and its allies as a satellite state of the Soviet Union. East Germany was one of those allies east and West. Germany had been divided since nineteen sixty one by a literal wall. That snaked through Berlin. Mikhail Gorbachev was the general secretary of the Communist Party and and is the one thousand nine hundred were on. He'll loosened restrictions on free speech. Not everyone was thrilled with his push for openness between the people and the government but then came the noble disaster of Nineteen eighty-six as writer. Craig Mazin emphasized in his recent. Hbo Series. Chernobyl was about more more than an explosion at a nuclear plant. It was about a governmental. Cover up what is the cost of lies. Gorbachev had initially been Fed ed misinformation about the scale of the disaster. It was tough for him to reconcile this obvious. Cover up attempt with his outward call for openness and historians story is generally considered the disaster to be a turning point for the general secretary then in June nineteen eighty-seven Reagan gave his famous speech. Calling in for Mister Gorbachev tear down this wall unlike some of his predecessors. This Gorbachev didn't have much faith that the USSR could win the arms race and he wasn't a fan of the prospect of nuclear war anyway. His citizens became increasingly emboldened to protest the Berlin Wall and on December Twenty Second Nineteen eighty-nine A- gate was opened allowing people to pass through for the first first time in nearly thirty years. The Wall officially fell in November nineteen. ninety-one nothing happens in a vacuum all of this world news had big impact on the livelihoods of Cornell's workers and on the fourteen thousand. Some residents who live near the plant with the cold. War are winding down. Production slowed with the controversies about uranium leaks at zenith for an especially vulnerable because lawsuits cost money The plant was producing less. That's making less money thus destined to collapse. Not that workers didn't fight the inevitable Lisa Crawford who helped launch the Community Organization fresh remembers that the workers were not fans of her class. Action Lawsuit. Has you no it's jobs. It's you know you're messing with my retirement. And there were threats around here that they keep it up. Nobody will have a job and they kind of use that collaborate and they didn't like us at all that began to change as more and more evidence surfaced to substantiate the rumors of long term radioactive leaks in October one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. The workers went on strike over. Pay and benefits. Lisa Crawford brought coffee and Donuts to the picket line. And the two sides started the demand fences. About this time Richard Shank director of the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency compiled statistics documenting and extremely mainly serious environmental threat. Dating back to the plant's opening this from one thousand nine hundred eighty eight article in the Chicago Tribune quote ways from a total total of two hundred ninety. Eight thousand pounds of uranium has been discharged into the air since the plant began operating in nineteen fifty one shink said and waste from one hundred sixty seven. Thousand Pounds of uranium was discharged into the great Miami River nearby. He said the underground water table had been subjected objected to unknown amounts of radiation leaked from six storage pits at the site. Those pits hold about twelve point. Seven million pounds of uranium and one hundred hundred seventy six thousand pounds of him and quote interesting tidbit not much three a medal with made it for an old yet. Massive amounts of it were stored in silos on the site. That's because for an old wasn't just a uranium processing plant. It was also a dump site for other nuclear facilities ladies particularly those situated on the East and West coasts the US government decided that Middle America would be a smarter storage spot for such waste because the coast were more at risk of being bombed by another country making scary weapons. and YOU WOULDN'T WANNA silo of radioactive material struck by an enemy so waste from the Manhattan project. That's the name of the World War. Two project that produced the first nuclear weapons actually was stored it for an auld and neighbors didn't know it so they had tons and tons of debris that was radioactive that was never generated from furnace. This is lawyer Stan. Chesley being interviewed for Living History Project in one thousand nine hundred nine example. You saw it. Looks like a rector sets out there it was it was quite phenomenal. And they were metal materials. WHO's a junkyard a thinking terms of a giant radioactive junkyard over and above the barrels and the containers but they were for example boosts storing forum and quonset hut that was leaking and most of that story had never been used at had never been used at fertile The case sixty five silos. There's another example they were they were acting as a storage facility. I was always reminded when we were in court. They kept saying well. We can't move because it's too dangerous and I so just as dangerous when you brought it. It's did not get their my metamorphosis it didn't just all of a sudden appear wasn't placed in those tanks and the way they were curing. The problem was they were building. Earth an earthen dam around around the tanks will so it was leaking into the dirt. Lisa Crawford the community activist remember learning that some of the waste had traveled all the way. Okay from the Belgian Congo. But the reason it was sent here to us was because so the US could put pershing missiles and the Belgium Congo. You know the average Joe around here is squadron. God really it was a giant mess. One far greater than workers or residents ever could have imagined and it probably wouldn't have have come to light if it hadn't been for the lawsuits which weren't easy to pull off by the way Chesley didn't sue the Department of energy because he figured they'd claim governmental ever mental immunity he targeted the contractors instead and it turned out that the contractors back in the fifties when these plants arose nationwide refused to do do this type of work unless they were indemnified the federal government needed contractors so they agreed to the demand. Hey the federal government it gave. NATO which was a subsidiary of national not only an indemnity for day to day activities of the dangerous nature but for any negatives you ever heard of the government giving a indentity for negligence and punitive conduct and with that was was a licensed to national national not to worry the government would identify the government would hold them harmless. And that was the problem was national Ed- all of these companies that took over what he's nuclear weapons plant at absolutely new no expertise nuclear energy. It was the fifties had no idea what was about how to do it. How do it's safety was not a factor? Nobody understood it. The Ohio Environmental Protection Agency whose involvement started when they sent Graham Mitchell Dole to do some well testing a few months. After David box disappeared was publicly angry that the federal government did so shoddy job running this plant governor Richard. Celeste accused the feds of quote deceit and mismanagement and quote and called on President Reagan to shut down for an old. It was a bold demand but not the first of its kind. A South Carolina plant at Savannah River that produce trade him had recently shut down three three reactors while a third facility the rocky flats plant in Colorado which handled plutonium had been temporarily closed because of safety complaints it stopped production permanently in nineteen eighty nine for knowledge workers who remember were making good livings at the plant and who believed in its mission went on strike but didn't want the plan to shutter many represented by the union were furious. They felt betrayed but they didn't want to lose their jobs. They wanted the problems fixed instead. Production stopped that might have happened without the bad publicity in the lawsuits in the cold. War ended in one thousand ninety one after all but Chesley credits both with ensuring that the didn't just abandon a thousand acres of polluted land and frankly had been left in this lawsuit. They might have sold gland. People Built House. Nobody knew nobody knew people criticize the legal system. The legal system brought it out after the dot reached a settlement with residents workers sued. That too was settled for one hundred million dollars. Here's TV coverage from W. C. P. O. A. Cincinnati station. Today's for an all settlement is designed to make sure it workers and former workers like Kelly get some help it calls for lifetime. Medical Monitoring Government paid for yearly medical exams for eligible for all workers and former workers bruce for as long as they live community members particularly those involved with fresh the group Lisa Crawford belong to insisted that the. Do E clean clean up mess and beginning in the early nineties. That was the focus. A lot of the existing employees were actually able to continue working there though in different different capacities. Bob Kiss Bird. The man who didn't want to be grilled in my interview with him had retired before this turnabout but came back to help manage the clean clean up. Very few people had site knowledge and history of materials processed in the plant so Or for a lot of newer people coming in the needed some guidance and could answer questions stakeholders had to decide right. How the land should be used the D. O. E. which had started being far more transparent in its dealings impaneled? A citizens advisory board to weigh the options. It was a complicated decision. Graham Mitchell said as you know if it's going to be an industrial site it's going to be a recreational site. It's going to be if if you're going to build houses on it all result result in different cleanup levels. Lisa Crawford was on the committee. The group weighed whether to clean to what's called background. meaning that the land would be scrubbed so thoroughly. That houses could be built there some day but that was just too expensive to have realistically consider as a parent. Lisa's I thought was what most most mothers would be. Get all of this waste Outta here. But that didn't feel right. I don't WanNa be a Nimby. You know people back. Then we're like what's a Nimby not my backyard. We didn't want to be. We don't WanNa be looked upon as nimbies so we made the tough hard decisions to keep what we could keep an and the really bad stuff off site. Where did it end up going? Some of the waste went to Utah. The the name has evaded me. But it ain't called that anymore anyway. You know they changed surname like they change their underwear Some of it went to Nevada test site. And then the really bad case sixty five stuff went to W. C. he s in Texas the one. That's negative Bush's salad. WCs stands for waste control specialists. Alice which is a controversial Houston based company specializing in treating storing and disposing radioactive and hazardous wastes. It was coned by a billionaire. INARA named Harold Simmons who donated tens of thousands of dollars to George W Bush when he was Texas governor. Simmons gave two point. Five million dollars is to Bush ally to organizations when w ran for president and he pledged one million dollars to Bush's Presidential Library when Simmons died in two thousand thirteen. NPR reported he had donated more than twenty million dollars to the GOP. In the previous nine years the reason all that money matters it because Texas state law had prohibited private companies from running nuclear waste dumps but after Simmons wave of generosity a lobbyist for forbush visited the Texas Natural Resource Conservation Commission and long story short. The law was changed in two thousand and three and the Ferdinand Advisory Board asked that its land. Go back to nature. The dangerous waste that remained would be contained. The building footprints would be turned into ponds on the water would be tested for the foreseeable future but they also wanted its past to be acknowledged somehow and that's how it became what it is today. A nature preserve that houses visitor center. Documenting the sites dirty history. The walls of the visitor's center are aligned with photos and memorabilia. Serbia Bob Kissed has a quote on the wall. We talked with two full-time workers stationed there sue smiley. The DA's office of Legacy SC management site manager and Penny Borkman who works for a contractor. Both were refreshingly forthcoming about the mistakes of the past. Here's Boardman the way I look at it you know. It's obviously a healing process on the land but it's also healing process in the community so we welcome anybody the WHO burdened by anger hurt. Whatever could've happened in the past? I'd mentioned in an earlier episode. That residents wins have access to medical monitoring that was offered to people living within a five mile radius of the plant when it was operational the monitoring largely stopped in two two thousand eight though. Data's still collected workers can be monitored for life. A study at the University of Cincinnati found that the monitoring programs help catch cancers early enough to better the mortality odds the cleanup ultimately cost nearly four and a half billion dollars. It's a staggering amount especially to David box family. who had I had only wanted death? Benefits accused is brought to you by third love. Third love does bras differently. Their bras are designed to fit you not the other way around designed with measurements from millions of women. Their bras styles are made to fit your life. They have over eighty bra sizes but they also know that the only one that matters is yours. 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Did you know that if everyone in the US bought just one used item. Instead of new in two thousand twenty it would save nearly six billion pounds of carbon urban emissions. That's like taking half a million cars off the road for a whole year. The waste in the fashion industry is insane. Which is why one of my new New Year's resolutions is to shop more sustainably by thrift ing? It's better for the planet and my wallet and it couldn't be easier with threat up threat. Up is is the world's largest online thrift store with up to ninety percent off estimated retail. You can score coach handbags for twenty five dollars. Free people dresses for thirteen. Eighteen dollars made well genes for just twenty five and even J. Crew Sweaters for just twenty bucks all items are in high quality condition. Some even still have the tags on. I recently ordered three shirts a tiki print. Marc Jacobs makeup bag and a coach purse. And I saved a total of five hundred thirty dollars and and ninety five cents which is wild and everything arrived to me. Looking like new get started today shopping with threat up. And I know you'll fall in love just like I. I did and just for listeners of accused. Get thirty percent off your first order at thread up dot com slash accused. That's thirty percent off your first order at T. H. R. E. D. U. P. dot com slash accused terms apply and now back to our story and the people who know for an old best seemed to be content with how things are now but the post shuttering hasn't been without hiccups. One of the companies handling the clean up effort was found to have mismanaged things in the nineteen nineties. And because it seems the site is curse to have safety problems no matter what the company also ignored warnings about looming equipment failures which ultimately did fail and caused significant damage. More recently a local TV journalist named and Wayne pullman reported that more than five hundred pounds of radioactive uranium slowed from the site to the Great Miami River in two thousand seventeen alone since two thousand seven. Some three point three tons of uranium have been dumped into the river. That's because that while the water is constantly tested it's only filtered when the uranium content is high enough to trigger treatment. It costs too much money to continuously filter the water. So it's sometimes done on just a dozen days a year. Here's an analogy. Let's say you have five loads of laundry to do today and you're only given one tub of water. We do it when each load is done. You run a test to see if the water you just use is super dirty and needs filtering before it gets put back into the TUB or if it's only slightly dirty and doesn't trigger the need for filtering even though the latter batch of water is an awful. It isn't totally clean either. This this is how the groundwater at all tested but instead of that slightly dirty water being run through your clothes it's being dumped into the river. All of that slight contamination adds up and in two thousand seventeen. It added up to five hundred pounds. A site contractor confirmed the releases to pullman men but insisted the water is safe by EPA standards soon after this story ran another broke about middle school in Portsmouth Ohio the site of another nuclear facility being closed after enriched uranium was detected inside the school. The school is a few miles from where the plant once stood and that plant stopped. Stop rations in two thousand one. Uranium is tough to get rid of. That's why for knol today is designated a superfund site. There are more within thirteen hundred nationwide fifty four in Ohio alone. It's a federal designation given to land. That's been contaminated by hazardous waste and is considered sittard risk to human health as Mitchell explains but what happens at superfund sites now is that there are always five year reviews every five years. There's is a highly peon. USC Get together with and go over you now is the remedy still working is all the remedies that we put in place out there. Are they still working. They're still protective. have any laws or any rules. Regulations change that would make them not protecting you know like a change in the drinking water standard for uranium or or something like that so all that review. It's it's a pretty big deal so every site every in every site has to go through that. Every superfund site has to go through these five year reviews. It's a it's a pretty good process. Amanda Rosman my producer had mentioned to me recently a story. She'd read about deregulation. I think. That's what prompted her to ask ask. Can it be sold off. You're raising a great question for these sites because you know how long do governments last. And how long do the the things you know institutions last and so You know the rules right now. Say that it has to stay stay in the federal government's ownership in perpetuity. But if somehow some day the history is lost in houses are built there. Well that would lead to a whole new set of parents feeling betrayed and scared for their children. Brin David Boxes Family kept tabs on the headlines over the years Casey box his daughter had a tough time. Envisioning the land ever being improperly cleaned up so when the site was open to the public to show off the cleanup progress. She couldn't resist visiting. This was in the nineties. She went with her mother under grandmother. While when we got there I went up to somebody was talking to. They were an employee her and ask them how long they worked there. And I told him who I was and he kind of looked at being okay and I told them my dad was and all that stuff and he kind of cut the conversation off their you know well well nice major blah blah blah. I noticed the rest of the day that somebody he he went one way. I want the other but I've noticed somebody was following me throughout the whole tour of their. This wasn't the same person but it was somebody body but yeah he. This person followed me all the way until at laughed so they knew who I was because it was just too weird strangely. It seems Bob Kiss. Burt remembers this visit as well though it's Carleen Casey's as his mum and David's ex wife who noticed but We had a display of different plants. And she kept focused on the one. So wonder what's a little break with what I was doing. I went over and I gave her time and ask her if I asked for any of her questions and she asked whether that was planned six and I said yes I explained a little. What on and she separately said? I'm Dave box widow. Well I hit me between the eyes. 'cause you don't expect that so She just wanted to look at the pictures where the operation Russian was done where he wanted to salt bath. Carleen died suddenly in a farming accident in two thousand. She had fought for answers for children. She'd filed several lawsuits and giving depositions. She and David had divorced sure but they'd been kissed together and they'd had kids together. That kind of connection doesn't always end just because the relationship does over the decades. David's three children have trouble trouble explaining just how their dad's death has weighed on them over the decades when you lose apparent young. It's like losing your footing in life. Each has had had a rough ron dealing with emotional and substance issues Tony. The oldest is open about the alcoholism battled just like his father. Did but that wasn't doesn't is only struggle at least throughout my twenties and early thirties I was a very very very bitter person. I I self medicated with alcohol severely and didn't really stop drinking until my forties and today from myself off medication I learned through the therapy. That you self medicate over depression just as it's tough to know whether for an in all deploys would have fallen sick had not worked at the plant. David's kids can't know their lives would have been less tumultuous had he lived as I said earlier. Nothing nothing happens. In a vacuum. After David died the hits kept coming for them if you look up the unsolved mysteries where Casey's interviewed you don't just see a younger longer version of herself. You see a more open less traumatized person the one you meet today you know. My mom was killed in her front yard and a farming accident. The list could go on and uncle and my uncle being hit by a car up one point in twenty eight you know and just a number of do things that have happened in like why is she sustained offers. Because I hate people I despise people full. You know I wanna get to know anybody and until I had one lady. Why are you so bitter? You've really you want me give you a list so I started list and stuff. They're like okay. I'm sorry I asked. I'd be bitter too you know and it's but you know you just do what you gotta do on. Don't be fooled by her talk. Though Mike a lot of tough people people you sent. She's got a soft inside. Maybe a little too soft. Maybe that's why she's forged such a hard outer shell she's funny to in. This is dry stephen right kind of way. One of my favorite moments in our interviews was her reaction to noise outside of our meeting room at a local library my fiance tale tell people you know occasionally about it or somebody will see the unsolved mysteries and be like thank guys Thursday child screaming side of the door. Okay go ahead but you are. Somebody will see the unsolved mysteries and say that you you know and then or they'll be. I'm not much for people and it's only because of because of that outside the door. That's one of the reasons but the things that I've gone through my life. I mean my dad was the tip of the iceberg see why some animal kingdoms eat their young Amanda and they were careful not to get hopes up. We investigated this case. We learn from season one that we can find all sorts of avenues to pursue and police can sound like like they're ready to pursue them but that doesn't mean they will. I can't tell you for sure. Where the Beth? Andy's investigation stands. Because the most police say now is is that they're working on it. Whatever that means when we took on this case our goal was to find new avenues? Sure but it was also to just give this case and open mind. Signed the time it deserved. David's kids lost their father. A man they loved man who shaped them our goal was to simply give this case as proper attention and we did that but as we near the end. We realize that wouldn't be enough when we talked with detective elder RUCCI. He at one point said Tain if there's something new to pursue it should be pursued. He also said he wouldn't be the guy to do it because he's retired so we reached out to his former department to see if any one there would be willing to sit with US and learn what we've found. That's how we got connected with a major named bill. Rarick accused is supported by ritual. 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You thought it was this strange meeting to prepare here for because it's odd for journalists to share what they've found with law enforcement and this felt otter still we knew the department already had adopted the suicide theory and we don't really see that as being plausible. We'd never say it's impossible. We try to keep the blinders off still. Because because that's the official department thinking. We figured we should focus on the UN pursued angles with extra vigor. A usually don't you try to argue a case. Yeah I mean that's like counter intuited to me so but they're already going to be so biased toward the Ridgeville investigation. Yeah that I feel like we have to kind of at least the enthusiastic. Explain why we think it should be. It just looked into the sheriff's office is in a sort of complex on Sycamore Street in Cincinnati near the county jail. It's nestled among mom-and-pop in pop diners and bail bondsman after we went inside we had to go through security rarick and I had talked briefly on the phone. But this was our first time meeting in person. We're the more severe enough. Thank you the four Bill O.. Look yes We said he wanted to hear out but he asked us not to record our meeting. Mostly because he didn't know us I I suspect he might have thought we were there to capture some kind of Gotcha moment but the truth is we. Don't hold out hope that any detective will have time to listen to some seven seven hours of podcast chronicling our year long investigation so we wanted to meet in person and synthesize things in hopes of peaking someone's interest enough to take take seriously the possibilities presenting we agreed to click off the recorder so everyone could feel comfortable speaking freely. rarick brought autour meeting Captain Tony or RU. Who Heads Investigations? I had forwarded rarick the public files I'd used and it was clear. He had taken a few days to familiarize vice himself with this case from before his time. Amanda and I laid everything out the whistleblowing theory. The reason we're not sure suicide makes sense. The reports of drug sales at Fernald and the inconsistencies in certain witness's testimony. Both detectives were guarded in how they responded which is no surprise. It's an interview technique one that most journalists used to you learned to minimize your reaction. So you don't lead the subject in any particular direction and we were careful to say. We don't think elder RUCCI was lazy or malicious. We have reason to believe he's a good detective. A good doesn't mean infallible. Nor should it. Everyone can be wrong The points we emphasized for these that David got someone suspended but but that person wasn't asked his whereabouts or question critically beyond discerning that it likely wasn't his motorcycle spotted by a CO worker. The morning of David's death that despite said co-worker finding motorcycles presence unusual enough to report no one bothered pinning down who cycle it was that suicide aside seemed highly improbable given the size of the vats opening that investigators insistence that no one could have put David in the VAT seems bizarrely intractable given that employees. Who knew that? That far. Better Demon possible that Charlie Schaus was the only person to ever say. David seem despondent and yet he for some reason told investigators that Harry agreed with him when he didn't that. No one investigated Schaus despite him. I'm having put himself with the dead man at the time of death the to push back here and there for example or said if workers knew that as as well as it seemed. Wouldn't they have known it wasn't a perfect place to get rid of evidence. Wouldn't they know all about the melting point various metals in that bits of bone might survive. Maybe we said but then again they would typically just put two items in that VAT fruit and uranium ingots. It's possible they didn't think about metal. Well I let's and steel toed boots. If you're in a hurry to dispose of a body you might take what you get when I said ten minutes was an awfully long time time for us to have talked with David to try and get them to open up. Its he told. Detectives initially rarick strategically shrugged. Maybe Schaus was wrong on the time. I'm maybe it was only five minutes still. I said five minutes is a long while to ignore somebody's questions. Wouldn't that have felt like an eternity. Xiao all standing there asking questions of a man who wouldn't reply. Did it bother him that after this one sided conversation David immediately would would've strolled into plants six to dive into a VAT of molten salt. There's no right way to respond to trauma but if you apply a tiny bit of common incense and human nature to the scenario something seems off. It's possible there's an easy explanation but man. It'd be nice if somebody bother desk after. The meeting. Amanda night chatted in her car. That was really nervous. That I I like dude I felt like was stonewalling. US right from the beginning. Yeah and then it got better. Yeah he you know what he was doing he does this thing. I do my interviews where you know. He's holding back and he's just trying to listen to the tip his hand at all but then he said a few things during where he's was like well that doesn't make sense right so I definitely felt better about that Yeah I it's hard to read. Yeah but I feel I feel heard. Yeah I do. I do feel like we were heard just as as we try not to raise false hope with victims families or ruin rarick tried to temporary expectations to this case is very old after all so the necessary certain pieces might be missing to do anything about it now still. The last thing they told us was that they were intrigued and willing to reopen the case. Amanda asked if that was something we could tell David's kids sure they said pass along or Info and let people know they can reach out to us with tips later that day. We called Tony. The reason we wanted to talk is because we wanted to let you know. We thought it was important to tell you rather than you learn it from the podcasts. We have brought a what we've found to the sheriff's department and they and they they said I'm I'm being very cautious here because I don't want you know any false hope. They said they're reopening the case while. Aw How thank you so I could almost cry something about your parents no matter whether they we're good or bad or around or not there early impressions on you never really go away. Tony is fifty three now. When we met for our first interview he said something interesting? He was forty two forty three years old when he died near forty three. You know thirty nine. Gosh Tony is now nearly a decade and a half older than his dad ever reached and yet him when he thinks about him he sees a man bigger older wiser than he is. I still look up to him like He. He's he's The I mean he's my dad. You know and my last memories of eamonn. I'm still thinking. Melvin as my dad and I'm fifty three. It's it's been a every day. I think having to every single day we never stopped being our parents children. We never stop looking up to them even after we figured out that they weren't magical all knowing beings but rather just people doing their best to get by same as we are now that we're grown up to to not long. After we talked Tony Center taxed after we hung up. He did have a cry. It was like a pressure valve had been loosened on thirty five years worth of frustration and anger and bitterness. That had built he knows finding the concrete. Irrefutable truth is still a long shot. But that's someone listened that they're willing to try. That's worth a lot to a family who suspicions been ridiculed for decades Amanda Phil and I have been back and forth to the fernald preserve probably half a dozen times times over the past year. We've walked some trails and trailed some geese and watch the sunset turned the CATTAILS Beautiful Golden Hue. It's peaceful useful there but once you know the story of the place it can be tough to block it out at the end of the drive. Not Far past the spot where a historical marker occur stands. Today was once guard house where armed men kept curious visitors at bay. Those beautiful puns were once the foundations of filthy. It'll be contaminated buildings beneath the Earth radioactive waste remains encased in concrete. There's little left outside of the visitor's center center to help you visualize the way things were before. It's tough to Orient Yourself even to figure out where plant six stood when David met his fate. There can't quite calm the unease. I feel when I visit and unease. That comes from knowing the dark history of such serene-looking place and that's that's probably a good thing that history shouldn't be forgotten not the history of the plant nor of David himself. People died on this land and for this cause lies were told to keep secret. Dark truths hidden here. David box died here and the people tasked asked with figuring out why we're contented dismiss it as a mystery never to be solved when a tragedy occurs. We don't always find a clear answer her. That's just how the real world works but that doesn't mean it's okay to slap a convenient explanation onto it and walk away hoping that everyone forgets. It's like using a band aid to cover a bullet wound. It's not a fix. The problem is still there festering. We can't forget what happened at for not all just because the people in charge muddied the waters so much that sifting the lies from the truth is near impossible no matter why David died there the the fact is he did and for some reason all the avenues to figure out why weren't explored. He deserves to be remembered not as an urban legend but as a father he deserves it but the rest of renauld demands to be remembered. Because if it isn't if it's history is somehow forgotten Someone Someday will unwittingly reopen the earth. There and unleash some deadly secrets To bench this season go to. WWW dot wondering dot com slash is plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM slash P L U S to support the creators of accused directly. Go to our patron donors. Get Bonus this content. Dan Burley episodes. That's at Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA Today network narrated needed by amber hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil Dibbin and edited by any will send in turn Mark Rosenberg provided additional research. Music was was composed by Andrew. Higley to look case documents photos videos and more visit accused podcast dot com as noted. Some audio comes from living history. Projects Projects in the community. Alliance transcript to those interviews are available on all community alliance Dot Org

Brin David Boxes US Lisa Crawford President Ronald Reagan Captain Tony East Germany Amanda federal government Madison Dash Reed Dot Com Reed Dot Com USSR Madison Reed Madison Reed Chesley Fed Great Miami River Jason Reed Graham Mitchell baseball
Chapter 1: Disappearing dad

Accused

49:40 min | 1 year ago

Chapter 1: Disappearing dad

"It's peaceful out here. It's lush green. It's the type of setting that makes a writer get a little flowery with her words. Goose waddles past and settles atop a nest. Dear gathered beyond the trees that lined the winding road leading past Manmade Pons. John's topped with healthy films of green. Algae you can see. The occasional bubble reached the water surface evidence of life below. It's a beautiful day to visit a nature preserve. I'm here in Crosby Township Hamilton County Ohio twenty three miles north of the the inquirer building. Which is where I work in downtown? Cincinnati my reporting partner. Amanda Rosman is with me are two more colleagues. It's safe to say this is one of the more pleasant assignments we for. Journalists have had in a while but as happened so often when telling a tale involving someone's death they things aren't quite what they seem to tell you about the guy they found in the salt over implying six pipe fitter work third shift. Traffic disappeared if you know accused. You know we've reinvestigated to unsolved murders in our previous seasons. This episode marks the beginning of season three but the story here is unlike any. We've reported before yes. At Center there is still a death and yes the initial investigation into that. Death was far from comprehensive. But this story is about much more than the end of one person's life it's also about about deadly government secrets that took decades to come to light secrets that some people believe got a man killed not could get schools truth. You better start packing commander hunt and this is accused the mysterious death of David Box Accused is sponsored by third. Love if you wear your bra single day it should be comfortable. That's why I love third love because they make the best most comfortable bras I've ever ever worn. They use data points generated by millions of women. 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It's on the side of that nature preserve in rural Ohio where the story begins more in in thirty five years ago back then there were no geese or deer on the land. The man made ponds that exist. Today are actually the footprints. Instead of a series of industrial plants. That once stood there the place was called the Fernald feed materials production center. It was the area's the biggest employer and because of that mouthful of a name as well as the red and white water tower emblazoned with a checkered board design that loomed overhead a lot of people in the town assumed. Its workers may dog food. It looked like PURINA company Logo checkerboard board pattern the employees who work there of course new better. This was no pet food company. It wasn't an offshoot of Perina. It was a uranium processing pressing. Plant run by the government as part of the arms race of the Cold War workers for national level high or an aloe stuffed. The plants dance and when they were hired they signed documents promising to keep their mouths shut about precisely what they did there. I started working in eighty two. You had to sign in agreement. You wouldn't talk about anything that you did there under penalty. I think it was two thousand dollars in five years in prison. That's John Sadler. At twenty year employees. He eventually was promoted to management but in the eighties. He was a regular employee. Just like David Box. The two weren't close friends but they knew each other. He says he was just he just kind of kept to itself. You know I'd say pretty much but I mean he got along with. Everybody is just a fellow worker with no problem but I don't think he was really real outgoing. You know like some people are but everybody liked him. He did his job like we all did ask John Sadler about David's case and he takes takes you back to June nineteenth nineteen eighty-four. That's the day. He arrived to work a morning shift at Fernald and learned that something strange had happened and Sadler worked plant six which was the metals fabrication plant in the middle of this warehouse type building. There was a huge furnace filled with a mixture of potassium chloride and sodium chloride. The point of this salt. That was a bit complicated. But what you need to know right now is that it was really hot. Thirteen hundred fifty degrees Fahrenheit for context. That's hottest fell sick lava which is in the hottest this lava. But it's still lava. I worked at plant six where this happened. And there's a guy that was furnace operator. He'd always come come in an hour earlier to get things going and everything and so anyway. I walked in and clock. Dan Dan he says. Come here let me show you this. And he showed me this furnace which was probably I'll say eight or ten feet long and it had molten salt in it. It just look like Lama. Always look that way so he showed it to me and it had a brown crust on top of the the salt and he says I have never seen this. I've been working doing this for a long time. The worker had lifted the lid off of that and noticed a strange crusty film. Elma top the mixture inside the mixture usually glowed red but the weird frost on top. Didn't it was black kind of sooty. The worker called a supervisor over and pointed it out. Does that look like a piece of bone floating on the top. He asked the supervisor. Couldn't make sense of what he was seeing and told the worker to stir the film into the sludge and get back to work. And that's what happened around the same time name. An employee named David box was expected to meet his car pool buddy for a ride home from his midnight shift. David didn't show and it would be several hours before Anna. Lo workers would connect the dots realize holy God that city film in the salt. Bad of plant six might be the remains of David Box. You might notice off the bat that we've changed the title of the season beyond the victim's name seasons one on into were unambiguously about unsolved murders Elizabeth NBA. Some retha Welsh without question died at the hands of someone else and not in Justifiable homicide kind of way season. Three might be a murderer as well but then again it might not. And that's very much the point. The person at the center of this story might have been killed by someone else or despite the family's insistence that he wasn't suicidal recital it's possible he might have killed himself. It's also possible however remotely that he is in debt at all had police Louise's done a thorough investigation at the time. His family might not have as many questions as they still have. And there are a lot of questions left to answer so many that it's tough to know exactly where to begin. This is one of the most complicated and layered stories. I've ever reported elements of the. The story have trickled out over the decades in my newspaper. The Inquirer as well as national media reports but details came in dribs and drabs. The official account never even included the gruesome death of a father of three but for us that death is not only at the center of the story. But it's the whole point. Some of you no doubt were not only alive but alive and even paying attention in June nineteen eighty-four for those who weren't a quick mckinstry lesson Cindy lauper was number one on the billboard charts with time after time the classics ghostbusters and Gremlins had just hit theatres. Race and Ronald Reagan was wrapping up his first term as president all right. I am deeply honored that you have allowed me to serve you for these past four years. If you think we hear a lot about Russia these days time traveling to the nineteen eighties. Wouldn't change much on that front though back then. Russia was part of the Soviet Union. So you'd have to get used to hearing the old umbrella term for several Soviet republics tensions between between the. US and the USSR were boiling. That'll happen when the two most powerful nations on earth are trying to figure out who wins the future. The resulting conflict was called the Cold War which had dragged on for decades and seemed to be coming to ahead. The US boycotted the nineteen eighty Olympics Olympics in Moscow and around the time David box disappeared. The Soviet Union had just announced it would be boycotting that summer's Los Angeles Olympics. If the tit for tat had just been confined to sports for naught might not have been home to a uranium processing plant but it wasn't confined to sports mm-hmm the US Senate allies for years had busted tail to create the biggest deadliest nuclear bomb imaginable in hopes of doing it before their frenemies did Reagan was elected in part because he promised to stand tough against these adversaries standing tough meant building bombs And building bombs required uranium as such locations all across the country manufactured one component or another for the arms race. We'll get get into this more in a later. Episode but in short for nods component was processing uranium. That's a high density metal found in rocks that kicks off ridiculous Nicholas amounts of energy. It's slow radioactive. Decay is where most of the Earth's heat comes from in short. It's powerful stuff if the for note. Plant this powerful stuff was refined in shaped and otherwise process before being shipped to another plant. That did other the things. No one plan was responsible for making weapons. Start to finish but there were dozens of plans handled steps along the way. I'm David Box. Was a pipe fitter at Fernald. He didn't do anything with uranium itself but rather he worked on the machines that did the processing and those machines were spread out in about a dozen different buildings called plants and those plants made up the Fernald complex on any given night David could be assigned to any plan at all. He was a fix it guy the night before. A colleague found black sludge implant six thirty nine year Gerald. David showed up to work as usual. He wore a long sleeved shirt and cut off. Jean shorts his daughter. Casey box streak remembers how we look Backman Tall. He was Broad he wasn't like obese but he was large large all the way around. Casey's parents divorced when she was pretty young. She doesn't have many memories of them living together still despite the divorce. She says her dad. David was a family man. The father of three children two boys and a girl. He was kind of nerdy not looking fellow with thick square glasses. I mean wasn't the chatty type everyone who knew him says he was pretty quiet introverted He wore or glasses thick glasses. He was blind in one eye. Legally blind in one eye and that Captain Alabi at Phnom. The only thing that kept in Vietnam said he use legally blind did one. I got his ears. Bigger the standout ears photos of David David show he would be perfectly cast as an extra in stranger things. He looked completely of his time from those glasses that covered half his face right down to his. Tom selleck mustache everybody on a mustache. Because I don't know I guess the thing David lived in Loveland Ohio Ohio which is about fifteen miles east of Cincinnati. He worked about thirty miles west of where he lived at an industrial site. Where Butler and Hamilton counties meet because it was a bit of attract to work? He used to meet a CO worker partway at a white castle and the two men would finish the drive to the plan together other. That's what happened the night of June eighteenth when the men worked third shift but this night something strange happened when the shift ended David didn't rejoin his CO worker to be driven back to his car. He didn't click out from his shift at all. No one reported having seen him for several hours His carpool buddy waited. Until he couldn't wait anymore then left David. A note quote waited till ten forty five finally went home. Sorry end quote. He expected he'd see David. The next stay annoyed that he'd been ditched at the plant but David didn't meet him at the White Castle for work. David's car was there though parked exactly where he had left at the night before. It was as though David box just vanished. He went went to work and disappeared. What happened to him is an unsolved mystery? Sh- night on unsolved mysteries seriously. It was featured on unsolved mysteries. We know where he likely ended up. Because three days after David disappeared pieces of bone were discovered erred in a spot of the plant that had no business containing bone. That discovery made it clear that he had probably met a gruesome fate. His body ultimately ultimately landing in that thirteen hundred fifty degree Fahrenheit. Vat of salt. What we don't know the unsolved mystery part is how David got there so a man goes to work and ends up in a furnace? That's pretty strange. But what makes this case worthy of a year long investigation is where he worked and when he died and the myriad theories that exist about his fate you know it was just one small incident in a very large arch plant. And I don't know if he died I mean he just disappeared. It was very news confusing thing around the plant. Everybody had their own ideas. Maybe jump defensive middle of the night or escaped or went in one of the furnaces. Everybody had different ideas but they claim he committed suicide cried and and call in that furnace but there was only a whole up there. That was so big. There's no way he crawled in there. mm-hmm don't ask me. I don't know and they tried to tell me all the time. He put himself in there. But how often totally trying to make a joke out if I could. He took off and Clermont are then put it back in Denton but but high got in there. I'll never know eight didn't get him By himself. I'll say that I've heard rumors that they thought maybe he was going to be a whistle. Blower what was going on with the project and I don't believe that I think he either. I got into an argument with somebody that night and was in Italy killed tried to cover it up or came across something he shouldn't have and Tom. The person placed his body using the hoist inside the furnace over the rolling mill I know a lot lot of people. Say He's not there that was chicken bones but I was in my supervisor's office when the box came back from the FBI lab that contained what they considered was his remains And I'm sorry but that gentleman I believe was in there. I don't believe it was chicken. Bones I made it very clear that I was last person. Apparently on record it seemed spoke doing not one person investigated in this case is absolutely a bizarre one in solving it at the time happened would surely have been tough for even the most dogged. Detective still still as has happened in other accuse cases the lead investigator decided. He knew what happened pretty early on and because he supposedly knew he he didn't take other possibilities very seriously but it isn't that he has a reputation as a bad or sloppy cop My Name's Peter Eldora g At the time I was a crime scene investigator Hamlin County Sheriff's Department and I would be at the scenes of any questionable death or homicide or suicide and I would be responsible for the entire crime scene. All evidence collection fingerprints any other items that Were of interest there's to us. It's tough to reexamine a case without sounding like you're as I told him. I'm aware that this is Monday morning. Quarterbacking but to his credit it all day RUCCI sat down with us to discuss this case and was even open to our pushback. We've asked around and he has a reputation as a stand up guy who cares. It's not just about closing cases but closing them right. There's one case in particular that helps illustrate this in one thousand nine hundred ninety Aldo route. She got a surprise middle of the night concession from a man for rape that someone else was in prison for supposedly committing instead of doing what I've I've seen other cops do announced that the original suspect must have had an accomplice ALDA RUCCI and the prosecutor's Office agreed that the confession meant that convicted victims man must not be guilty and he was released from prison although Rucci didn't want them wrong guy behind bars. ALDA RUCCI stands ends by his investigation in the David box case. He believes that foul play was physically. Impossible nobody could have put him in there other than him putting himself under not much ambiguity. There suicide is possible when you don't have a body. It's tough to tell how a person died. David's family family said he'd been in good spirits and planning for the future but suicide isn't always a planned act. Sometimes it's spontaneous and inexplicable explicable to the people left behind. David did have mental health issues and a suicide attempt several years in the past. So Alder Rucci didn't pull pulled the suicide possibility completely out of thin air but we have more than one thousand pages of trial transcripts and investigative documents. And we've conducted opted dozens of our own interviews including one with Al Rookie himself and it's fair to say that Alder Rucci never weighed homicide in this case he Set so himself. He didn't even consider it. No one was questioned for motive. Alibis weren't verified. Leads went not only on followed. You'd want him gathered all Ritchie. Doesn't consider this case unsolved mystery at all but David's family does I mean have Hewish but you know we had seen him the one that had happened. It was father's Day weekend so we have just seen him he had just picked us up. And you know we'd spent the weekend with him and He dropped us off a little early because he knew had to go to work that night so he wanted to get sleep but I mean we were playing vacation groceries. He was a smoker. He just bought three packs of cigarettes sitting home and stable. Oh you know it wasn't. He didn't commit suicide commit suicide like they WANNA say did. She was suspicious from the outset about suicide and then for Nolde made big headlines a few months after David's last shift ever since that Casey has been certain in who died was murdered. The first headline ran in December nineteen eighty-four on the front page of the Cincinnati Inquirer at red and yellow checking possible uranium leak. Here's how the story begins unacceptably. Large amounts of uranium dust may have escaped from an Ellos for Donald Uranium processing plant in northwest Hamilton. County and a low spokesman. George Smith said Monday if it really happened. The uranium slipped by a flawed filter. altern pressure monitor and a work area exhaust system for three months Smith said but it may not have happened. He added spoiler alert. It did happen been and it helped lead to the plan shuttering just a few years later the way. That story was falsely tempered. Maybe something happened but then again. Maybe it didn't was a sign of things to come company and government officials habitually downplayed any concerns to the point of outright deceit. And so now you have a man who goes to work at a uranium processing plant and ends up in a furnace just months before stories break that ruined the company. You have a death that was treated straight away as a suicide and you have officials minimizing. What's really happening at the plant? It's no wonder David's family has questions questions. You GotTa do. I mean but it's always there. There has not not been and I hate this word Luger. I hate that word. You hear people use that although I need some closure but you know I don't have a place to go and mourn if I wanted to or anything like that for all I know. He's done in Mexico. Drink Margaritas Garrido's So right I'm not a fan of the word closure. Actually I have been in arguments with editors like now. Don't put that in the headline really do hate that word. You can't find closure you you can find any answer can help. Maybe he'll feel a bit but it doesn't mean that I mean I know in my mind. Basically what happened. But it's not gonNA change anything. No I mean wouldn't be nice for somebody to get what it's coming to them gas. I'm definitely a person eye for an eye. But you know the government is a big entity and to try and find out anything having accepted the fact that probably will never happen You can probably hear in cases voice that she's tough she's he's thin with delicate features but she looks a bit weary lake. She's endured a few too many tragedies in her fifty one years and in truth she has Losing her father when she was a teenager was simply the first of them excuses. Quick break the episode. You're listening to now was released already on our patron page at Patriotair Dot com slash accused. You can get early ad free episodes there as well as bonus episodes behind the scenes peeks Cuna sessions and even a brand new crime and journalism. podcast if you like what what we do here consider joining us over there again for this content and more support us at Patriotair dot com slash accused. And when I reported case the first thing I want to know is who precisely. I'm reporting about with season one of accused. We put Beth. Andy's photo votto front and center to make sure she was at the forefront of our minds. Her photo is still by our desks. This time David's photo is on our wall too though. He's been tougher to flesh out. It's not that he didn't affect people in his thirty nine years but a lot of his family is dead. His kids remember him of course in his son. Tony told me that he keeps his dad's childhood baseball glove on the dashboard so he sees it every day but his kids were young when he died they they never got the chance to know him as a real person. It's like they remember a two-day version of their dad. He's there but not fully formed. David's CO workers from some of them brought him up during interviews conducted for a living history project in the late nineteen nineties but as you can hear from one one of his self described Friends George Beset memories of David's life have been overshadowed by the mystery of death when they tell you about the guy they found in the salt over implying six. They was a pipe fitter work third shift and he disappeared so they went over and looked him. They smell up when you went implying. Six excellent went up there and took a lead off the salt furnish and he was a black impression up. There did find him he was real good friend of mine too. I used to kid him. I'm kidding me with a pipe fitter they never did. I don't want him doing David's become more legend than man. We hope to fix that at at least a little because like any of us. He deserves to be remembered so a brief biography David was born in Staten Island. New York work in November nineteen forty four two and Russell box his folks had met and fallen in love and the Empire State they married in nineteen thirty six had three. The sons and moved to Ohio. David was young. The couple devout Catholics stayed married for more than forty years until and died in nineteen seventy nine nine nineteen eighty-four David was set to turn forty years old and he was turning a corner on a few rough years in the late seventies. He'd been drinking taking too much which caused his wife to leave him. David didn't want the divorce. He wanted a lifelong marriage like his parents. It was tough on him when he realized it wasn't going Happen but he and his wife kept things amicable and he stayed focused on his kids. Even if they didn't live with them anymore he he was always. He's there when we needed him a wake up. Call him at the drop of a hat and he would be there. But I mean it was a good guy On US want to Church was Catholic and then a lot of stuff for the church. He used hidden. My mom actually used to cut grasp for the church. Remember how David looked a little nerdy. His biggest thing was he loved the CD radio CB. Radio isn't intas commonplace. Now as it once was I saw a reddit comment refer to it as the Youtube comments section for an older generation which feels pretty apt. Trucker's still use it to talk to each other. But in the seventies and eighties it was hugely popular with non truckers. Too Shy people today might know most of their friends from the Internet well. Most of David's friends were folks he would shot with unsee be. I can remember there'd be times where where he didn't want to go. This was what him and my mom are still together. He wouldn't WanNA bother my mom he had A. CB and the car he would go out ten eleven twelve o'clock at night and sit in the car and talking to CB radio he'd be up until two three or four o'clock in the morning talking on the damn thing you know after the divorce he was able to CB radio Jio as much as he wanted. And Casey remembers that's just what he did and he would get on. TV At all hours of the day and night and just talk to people all all over the place. He had a group of people locally that he would talk to and then every so often they have like a picnic or something and I'll get together so they can see face to face but you know. He was always so proud that he had talked to. Somebody in Australia was able to reach that far so loss. CB Talking Tony box for member. That is dad's handle was easy. Rider lifted from the classic Peter Fonda Film. Casey said he used to talk with a woman who called herself. Fancy so yes there. Dad was quiet and his in-person friendships were limited. But his kids don't think he was lonely. He's a reserve her very reserved person unless he had a CB he was a CB fanatic man. Tony Oni was older than Casey. When his dad died in fact he was married to his high school? Sweetheart to whom he still married today one of his favourite memories of his dad. Ed begins on Christmas when Tony was fourteen. He loved music and was determined to play guitar. That's Tony Not David who wasn't much of a music fan Dan. Tony had bought a cheap guitar and asked his parents for new strings for Christmas. They came through but while Tony was restringing the instrument he he somehow lost his grip and when it hit the ground the neck broke Tony Bald. He was heartbroken. His Dad heard from Tony's he's mom. Just how upset. He was so David took him to the music store and gave him his pick and he said so. You like stress right and and will come on. Let's go find one. I had one in my mind that I was thinking about and when I finally found about a month after we first started looking it was at Midwest music. He made sure yeah go ahead. We'll take it. Tony Still. Has that guitar today. One of Casey's favorite memories also centers on a holiday had a comical side to him. You like to joke around. What kind of jokes? It just stupid stuff like it eastern instead of calling it. The Easter body was the pig. You'd have these pig callers. which was his dad? I knew it was his dad avenue. It was my GRANDPA. But he'd have his dad call us on the phone the day leading up to her father's disappearance Tsk Casey had spent time with them. It was such a normal uneventful visit. That she doesn't remember much about it. Even though it was the last time she ever saw him she does recall her. Dad Got excited about his plan to take the kids to Florida for vacation. The next time he saw them the plan was to load them up in the car. Aren start the twelve hour drive but that was next time this night. He had to get ready for work. He dropped the kids off a little early so he could not before. His midnight chipped. The next day Casey went with one of her brothers and her mom's boyfriend to Churchill downs the race track known as the home of the Kentucky Derby. Casey's mom had stayed home. If you've been to a race track you know. They can be pretty loud places over the din. Casey heard and announcement mm spin on the PA system. I can remember telling my mom's boyfriend. They just paged you. And he's like oh no they didn't and they just paid you overhead. The boyfriend never heard it himself and wouldn't take Casey's word for it so the trio never never returned. The call ended up staying for the whole races and then when we got back mom was waiting for us when we got back and told oldest that he was missing. What do you mean missing like Woah? Don't get lost. He wanted to work and they can't find him. The News didn't seem real and it certainly didn't seem final. As far as his family knew David could reappear at any moment with the story. Worry about getting fed up with work and deciding to quit on the spot or he could be found pinned beneath some big piece of equipment in one of the warehouses or or you could show up at home after a couple days of binge drinking confused why everyone was making such a fuss it would be three or four days before anyone broach the possibility with David kids that their father might be dead. Nobody ever wanted to say he was dead. Because of the whole you know who's going to be liable for it because it happened at work you know. So they were. It took a lawyer getting getting a paperwork from judge to say that he was dead and that was probably a couple of weeks at least So I just remember my mom telling us that he was missing. But kind of a protracted way to find out something that traumatic right exactly well. David's families struggled to makes sense of his absence. His co-workers had started searching. The fornell complex was divided into all of those buildings called plants. As a pipe fitter David could be assigned to any plant on any given night the ninety disappeared. He'd been assigned to plant eight and told the fix a meter for in a valve and replace some gaskets. Supplant eight was naturally one of the first places is co worker searched. Most of the work he had been assigned was it's finished but there is no sign of David so they were checking their course. They checked whole site check for him. That's one of David's former CO workers I. My Name Is Melvyn Clearer Emil v I N Seal E E R people call them doc. He was interviewed for that. Living History Project mentioned earlier. I mean everybody don't ideas if he jumped the fence in the middle of the night or escaped or went in one of the furnaces. The morning after David went went missing is when a CO worker noticed the strange city film in the VAT workers would dip uranium ingots into the mixture of potassium chloride and sodium chloride which was kept hot enough to alter the molecular structure of the radioactive metal. In short the slurry is high temperatures allowed the Uranium Liam to be molded into whatever shape was needed after the employee alerted. His supervisor and the supervisor shrugged off the finding and directed the sludge to be stirred. Everyone moved on but a bit later. The worker noticed something else about the salt that it was kept at a constant thirteen hundred. I'm fifty degrees Fahrenheit. It was monitored to ensure the temperature never varied even when the lid was taken off and the ingots lowered into it. It only dropped a few degrees and yet a readout from early in the morning right at the end of David Shift showed to dips in temperature within the half hour span. It dipped down to thirteen hundred and twenty two degrees then came back to thirteen fifty then dipped again to thirteen hundred twenty four and finally leveled back for good about fifteen minutes later. That readout is what prompted everyone involved in the search for David to zero in on Evatt. But we didn't know for sure but anyway what they did. They turned off the furnace and they uh took all this material other RUCCI ordered workers to empty the bat and sift through its contents to see if they could determine whether it entombed David Box Fox. That was impossible at thirteen hundred and fifty degrees so workers. I turned off the bat and waited and waited and waited needed. It took three days before the goo inside cooled enough to drain after that workers grabbed chisels and started a grisly search. Search digging through the now hardened slurry was a painstaking staking process. Clear says the took an all out and went through it piece by piece a little pieces. I mean they went over that and they hit a stereo coordin- off and they went through it and Jackhammer down there. It was just like Molten Rock and they did find some things they thought might have uh-huh attributed to him like a shoelaces or steel toed shoes. Casey remember seeing photographs of what workers found I do I do remember that because they had pictures of like the wire. Rinse glass is parts of booths keys. This that and the other thing. Most of what the workers recovered was metal. Some types of metal melt at less than thirteen hundred and fifty degrees aluminum for example has the melting point of less than a thousand degrees Greece but silver survives up to fifteen hundred fifty degrees brass. which is what a lot of keys are made of stays intact until about sixty one hundred and fifty degrees? Ace Steel varies on whether it's pure or mixed with another metal but generally speaking it survives until about twenty five hundred degrees. The photos showed something else too and they were showing us the pictures bone fragments and I got to go to the bathroom and on wait I I was. I was feeling good and I ended up passing out in the hallway and kind of you know half because a coffee and a half of the anxiety of C.. And all that stuff even after the kids saw the photographs questions lingered that that can happen in deaths with actual bodies and this one only had fragments of bone bone wasn't identifiable DNA testing. I debuted around nineteen eighty-three and didn't hit courtrooms until Nineteen eighty-six back. When that testing was new? You needed a good bit of biological material to make a match. The bones from the furnace for too degraded to test at the time and today there in tomb somewhere on undisclosed government property supposedly Siddeley because they're radioactive without a body rumors started swirling at the plant that David Hunt died in the vowed at all but rather had had sneaked out by climbing offense at the back of the property. Those rumors eventually reached his family. Gave them hope. Those rumors continue you today. In fact one former boss of David's told me we made what I thought was a thorough search in the plant and I I don't think he expired in the plant to be clear. Expired is a euphemism for death. The supervisor Sir named Weldon Atoms doesn't believe that David died at Fernald at all. He offered no explanation for the bones and metal found in the salt fat even forty years later. Casey doesn't speak about her father with finality as she said earlier for all I know he's done in Mexico drink Margaritas That's of course more wishful thinking than rooted in reality. He's never made contact with anyone. He left his home his belongings. He didn't surface when other their loved. Ones died in the years that followed by all accounts he was a doting father. His kids were his primary motivation for getting mental health treatment. Coming to begin with the notion that he left him willingly doesn't sit well with people who actually knew him that hasn't kept some strangers from reporting according random sightings however after the case was featured on unsolved mysteries a tipster claim to have seen David working as a doctor and Elizabethtown Kentucky but it only took cursory research to find that the doctor in question was another man entirely with fully documented past. If David it is still alive. He's in hiding and he's a master at it. The headline about radioactive dust escaping into the air came about five five months after David's disappearance. Never were the two stories reported in connection with each other. At least not in the mainstream press a self if described investigative reporter who lived near the Fernald plant started loosely tying the two events together for a couple of independent newspapers he freelanced for the reporter named DC. Coal forged a friendship with David's family and wrote some stories for now defunct newspaper called the everybody's news that looked at for knowledge in the poison. It had unleashed not just in the air but in the nearby water supply. Coal was convinced that David was as a conscientious worker. who had grown frustrated with the lack safety measures at the plant? He believed David had figured out that. The plant was endangering workers and residents and threatened to go public with what he knew and he believe. David's plans to whistle blow thwarted by his murder. Cole's persistence caught the attention of producers of unsolved mysteries for young wins out there it was a hit. TV show launched in Nineteen ninety-seven. It's had several several hosts over a few incarnations most notably Robert Stock hopping from NBC to CBS. To lifetime it was cancelled in two thousand and two them resurrected for a few years in twenty seven with Dennis Farina's the host despite all the changes over the years. The show's premise never varied it always focused on cold cases and paranormal phenomena. And it always creep the hell out of my mom me when we watched it together which I vividly remember doing every week each hour long episode of the show featured a few different cases meaning any given case Scott About fifteen minutes of coverage landing. The case ace on national television was a coup for DC Coal David's daughter. Casey shared with me a stock of emails that she in DC had exchanged in the mid mid nineteen ninety s and both of them seemed optimistic that the increased exposure would at least shed light on what might have happened. We'll talk more more about that and about DC coal in future episodes still. Casey said she's always kept her hopes. Realistic I just new in my mind I was never gonNA get any resolution to it because it was a government run play Elliott and they don't want information no matter what it is. They don't want it to come out over the past year. We've done a lot more legwork than the unsolved mysteries history crew. No disrespect intended. Rip Robert Stack. But we've spent thousands of hours on this bizarre case we've interviewed experts and witnesses and we've even built a replica of the salt fat. Were the first people outside of law enforcement to inspect the original police files related to the case. We have chased down down every rumor. We've heard and we've done our best to substantiate or eliminate them. It's been taxing project on US mentally because we we frankly knew nothing about uranium when this thing started I really should have paid more attention to science class in high school. Now that I know I know I find ended all kind of terrifying that beautiful land with the deer in the man made ponds was once teeming with chemicals that we knew even then could cause has cancer decades after its closure that land is still too polluted to have houses built on it once word got out in the mid nineteen eighties. That safety was life-threateningly lax at the site. Government officials repeatedly obfuscated or outright lied to cover it up. It took determined residents in sick employees years to get the company and the Department of Energy to own up to the damage it caused and even then they still managed to shirk some responsibility. A lot of workmen's comp claims were denied over the years the plan to end its secrets are one aspect aspect of this season and so we'll talk about all that but our main focus is on a man who on a summer day in Nineteen eighty-four went to work and disappeared at long last. We're going to try to figure out if David box killed himself or was killed by someone else and if he was us why this season on accused I still been. I'd still eh one hundred percent. We always try felt that they should have actually gone after the company. But that's what we all found adults just look like hell. I mean it just looked like what you look down at Hell and there was a big hole in the ground. Don't look like we know. The groundwater was poison. I don't know how much we know about the radiation today. It seems so mundane yet. It seems so even at the same time or potentially so even though there were scientists this pointing to real hard violations of those standards You still thought while they told me that safe. So it safe and I think the interviews about this season go to www dot wondering dot com. Tom Slash plus. That's W O N D E R Y DOT COM slash P L U S to support the creators of accused directly. Go to our patron page. Donors is get bonus content. Dan Daily episodes. That's Patriot dot com slash accused. This is a special project from the Cincinnati Inquirer part of the USA Today network narrated by amber hunt produced by Amanda Rosman engineered by Phil and edited by Amy Wilson Intern Mark Rosenberg provided additional research. Music was composed by Andrew. Higley to look at case documents photos videos and more visit accused podcast dot com as noted. Some audio comes from a living history. Projects in the financial community. Alliance transcript to those interviews are available. 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David David Casey David Box Fernald David Box United States supervisor Dan Dan John Sadler Cincinnati Ohio David Hunt San Francisco Bay Tony Cincinnati Inquirer Crosby Township Hamilton Count David Shift Manmade Pons