20 Episode results for "Manic Depression"

[Unedited] Andrew Solomon with Krista Tippett

On Being with Krista Tippett

46:13 min | 3 weeks ago

[Unedited] Andrew Solomon with Krista Tippett

"Support for on being with krista. Tippett comes from the fetzer institute helping build the spiritual foundation for a loving world. Fetzer envisions a world that embraces love as a guiding principle and animating force for our lives a powerful love that helps us live in sacred relationship with ourselves others and the natural world learn more by visiting fetzer dot org. I'm krista tippett up next my unedited conversation on the spiritual territory of depression with journalist and author andrew. Solomon there is also produced show called the soul in depression that includes parts of this interview and other voices. Find that wherever you got this. Podcast i want you to sound the same as anyone. But i will say. I think we'll go ahead and start. I will say that. I heard quite a few interviews with you when your book came out. When was that was that in two thousand and two thousand one. It was june. Two thousand okay and And i felt like a lot. It was just going over the gory. Details of your of your breakdowns. Which you and you've written very honestly about that. And i felt like there was often a fascination for the interviewer in what you've been through and how you're willing to talk about it I guess my interest is is really in getting inside that experience with you more in a more contemporary of way and and again you know. There's this sentence near the beginning of your book where you wrote a hated being depressed but it was also in depression that i learned my own acreage. The full extent of my soul I think i'd like to use that as the place where we start this conversation. Just what you mean by that and also. I'm curious if you remember when you what was happening to you when you first started to make that kind of connection articulated that way i mean. Could that happen to you when you were in the middle of depression or or was it. Something that happened later came to later in that way. I think that the specific formulation. Kim me later but i think the experience came to me not really while i was in the depression. But as always emerging from it and as readjusting to a so called non depressed life After the worst of the illness was over. I had come from a background. I'm jewish but we never had a religious practice in our household. I did go to sunday school for a while. When i was little but i came from a fairly irreligious background and my parents. My father in particular were great believers in science. And so i feel. Science was the religion of the household and expected to explain everything and we had long conversations about that and i held i think until the depression came along a somewhat more spiritual view of life than had been present in my household but still a tendency not to look through that particular lens at my own experience and to think that my personality was to some extent the consequence of how i had been born and how i had been brought up at a fairly technical level and when i was going through the depression i had the sense that many of the qualities by which i had defined myself were abandoning may and that i was no longer the person whom i had previously been and yet there is something within me that seemed to stay the same and it was striking to me then but very striking to me afterward that wall so many of the accessories of myself as conceived in the world had fallen away from me something essential remained at the core and i thought what is that essential thing and i had the sense at that point that it was if there was some part of me that could survive the depression it with the same part of me in a way that could survive beyond death was the same part of me that was beyond my imagination beyond my control that was not constructed i suppose would be the best way to describe so forgive me if i'm not fully articulate an answer before well that's good i mean so you're not but you're not even just talking about your sort of your core identity yourself you're really talking about something transcendent also though are experiencing experiencing to be somehow transcendent. I think i am. And i think in the wake of the depression. I'm aware of that essentially transcendent thing. That lives within me. In a way that i wasn't previously and i can separated much more clearly from the way i act in the world or the way i think in the world. It's something more profound than that. So i didn't think when i felt i discovered a so that it was connected to any particular liturgical tradition. But i think that i had kind of initiation into a very quiet and very personal mysticism for one of a better word I had a sense much more sharply than i ever had before that. How to phrase this I had a sense of the remarkable -ness of human life itself. I had a sense of its fragility but i also had a sense of an extraordinary resilience. That lies very deep in many of us are most of us and i thought that is a quality that has very little to do with atomic physics. I mean doubtless their explanations that are linked into atomic fix. But i thought there is something more complex hearing. It led me to the sense that while i believe strongly in the theory of evolution and scientific explanations of life that there is something miraculous in the inside of a person that manages to exist against all odds and it gave me a sympathy for the extreme faith of people who go through extreme suffering something. I'd never previously understood with your suffering that much. How can you believe in something divine in one thing that i i am also a person who has experienced Major depression and thank you. Well i As you know it's a it's a mixed experience which out of which comes a lot of good Or that was my experience too. I think what. I found really refreshing about your book and something that i don't think is out there enough. Is you know what depression really is. And what it really is not It's not sadness really I think you say that. The opposite of of depression is is human vitality a vital subject just about his right now. And that's it. I mean and again i mean i'm also i'm also hearing that as an extension of what you just said about. You know what you learned about something that was at the core of your being It's an experience. i think. Overall of finding the most ordinary parts of life incredibly difficult finding it difficult to eat finding it difficult to get out of bed by nia difficult and painful to go outside being afraid all the time and being overwhelmed all the time and frequently. It's quite an experience to be afraid and overwhelmed all the time nonetheless. Those are the essential qualities of it. It isn't i think primarily an experience of sadness. And i think for many people who go through depression. There is a feeling that they're losing a grip on themselves on who they believe themselves to be and i think when that loss become sufficiently profound it's one of the primary motivators for side it really throws people into a sense of internal chaos if you can tolerate the internal chaos than i think. You're merged with a great deal of knowledge you didn't previously have and i think also having gone through anything that difficult and painful leaves you with a sense when you aren't in something so difficult and painful life is very much worthy of celebration and you have an exuberance battery life itself it also teaches you of course humility and i think it teaches us certain kindness because you're able to empathize better with people who have gone through difficulty or suffering and it teaches you how big emotion is ins not simply something. Which is the consequence of you know. The car honked demand. I felt annoyed. Or even i fell in love and i felt happy. You have a sense that emotion in stronger within the self then anything else or even the way you maybe. It's even maybe emotion is not even a big enough word for what you're describing. We've oh yeah we could go back to the word soul but The sense of the trying to think how to had to articulate it the profundity of the inner self. I suppose would be the best way of putting it. You have a new sense of the profundity of the inner self. And you get away from the distraction of what i would call the outer self Our passions in maybe in a real classical sense of that word also away to talk about these the largeness of emotion that you're describing i think passions are the only way to talk about it. Unfortunately i feel like the word passion with like the word. Depression like perhaps even the word soul. They've been used in popular context so often that they've lost their dynamism in some ways. Until you say it's all about passions and people say. Oh yes you know. I have a passion for horseback riding. I'm passionately in love with robinson. All of those ways in which passion is us but yes as you santa classical profound sense the passion which is the essential motivation for all human activity and in a sense. After you've been through a depression you're much more aware of what you do and why you do it and whether you want to go on doing it. You're not always in control of those things but you're aware that they're there to be considered and that again is quite a mystical experience. It's it gives you a different relationship to the world. It gives you a different sense of how your interior monologue really determines everything and you're left mystified as to where that interior monologue originates and where those passions come from and why they're so mutable and what it is within them. That's immutable just to keep going on this idea of what what you learn and what it is and what it isn't i mean it seems like you also make very clear case that this is not about simply a depression is not simply an escape from pain. one thing you you learn to appreciate is the fact of pain in life as one of as one of the experiences of life that means that that is a sign of being alive right. I had a very interesting conversation with a priest. Who's a friend of mine and with the teacher. When i was at university and i occasionally go to his church to him. Speak because he's wonderfully articulate and many friends of mine from school belong to To saint luke's which is his congregation. And i was talking to him at one point about the purpose of suffering and he said to me. It's very narrow minded idea that comes out of religion that all suffering has a purpose suffering is just suffering. And after you've been through the suffering perhaps your relation to the world is changed and perhaps it isn't but suffering shouldn't be glorified and i said quite strongly hold to that idea. I think there is something that's come out. If the judeo christian tradition that says there is a nobility and suffering in silence. But that being said i think that suffering also gives one it gives one breadth You know emotion and self operate by and large in a fairly narrow range and once you've been all the way to one extreme. You're aware of the capacity to go all the way to the other one. I think i've lost your question. Well no no. You haven't and i'm not sure as well. I think what i'm getting at is I think one thing that depression does even dampen to feel the pain that you need to feel to get better. In some cases you know there were there. Were things i needed to work through in my life that i couldn't i could not feel sad enough or have the will to work through them. I mean i. I was less sad and in pain when the depression was there Is a hard thing to talk about. No i'm with you one hundred percent because what i've been talking about really are ways that you feel after the depression. Yes in the depression in the depression. Of course which you feel is a terrible numbness and part of. What's so alarming is that you can't feel overjoyed joyful things but you also can't feel very sad about sad things. I remember having the sense. My first depression was fairly soon after my mother died. And i had been in such a state of grief and suddenly when i was in depression wasn't in that state of grief anymore and i had been involved in an number of writing projects and in a lot of emotional relationships that were structured to some extent around that profound grief and when it disappeared in that way and i was left with that numb feeling. It didn't matter it didn't matter the my mother died. It didn't matter the my book was being well received. It didn't matter at either end of the spectrum that was very hollow empty feeling. And i think you're right if you're in acute active. Pain it motivates you to act and if you're in is a state of numbness there's nothing to energize you would drive you forward so you do write about your mother's death hurt suicide which you and you're there for her death and that was clearly a ferry dramatic experience an intimate one that you've sheridan writing And i i did want to ask you. You know the the difference between the experience of grief which again is easy for people. I think on the outside to confuse with the experience of depression And i will say because of the general topic of this show something that was very surprising to me at the time when my mother was dying fairly shortly before she died. We were talking and i said to. You know you gave me a wonderful life. You've been a remarkable mother so on and so forth and she said to me as i've gone through this illness the cancer that there's one thing i realized i didn't give you and i wish i could have said i didn't give you the gift of faith. It would be such a comfort under circumstances like this and it would provide such specific knowledge and it was something i didn't have and i didn't have to give you but i wish i had That was very compelling to me Being with her as she died was an incredibly intense emotional experience it was And overwhelmingly sad and terrible experience. I think of it as the trigger really from my depression. But i didn't become depressed until quite some time. After she died. I was writing a novel that was mostly about her. In the course of writing that novel. I felt i sustained a certain kind of intimacy. The passage from grief into nothingness was very alarming and very strange. There was a sense. I mean i still would have said you. I'm terribly upset that my mother died and so on and so forth but the the feeling went out of it. And i think that's why when the feeling comes back you think. Oh this is this is a soul. This is spirit. This is something profound alive which returned to me after taking a leave of absence. This there is that double edged sword though that the this extreme experience of depression of nothingness can can in fact make when it lifts can make you aware of something that you weren't aware before but but there are liable for whom it is extinguished right. Ler hype had very interesting experiences looking at the question of religion and depression in more explicit terms than we've been discussing thanks and i wrote a little bit about a good friend of mine who actually goes to saint. Luke's maggie robbins who has religion as a way of structuring or her life to avoid relapse into manic depression. I found that some people who are depressed find in the depression that their faith is stronger than the depression. And it's the thing that helps them get through whatever else. they believed. They believed that there is a good and merciful gone and they believe also i think significantly that they have obligations to that god out obligation to go on and to stay alive and to continue to do goodson how in the world there are other people. I've met who have always had strong faith and the depression in damaging their entire emotional structure has destroyed that faith and they have felt abandoned by on and for those people. I think the faith is burden and makes the experience of depression even worse than it. Otherwise would be because of that terrible feeling of the previously unimagined aloneness in the world of faith. Right i mean. I think it's an it's the psalmist pit. It's the dark night of the soul Do i mean in your experience. Do people is do people recover. Have you known people who've recovered their faith than it is changed afterwards or has it disappeared completely and they can never reach back to again some of each absolutely some of each Some people whose faith has been renewed by the miracle of coming through some people for whom the issue is not so much faith but having a reliable structure and who found the liturgical structures and explanations for life even at their most formal gave them a sense not descending into the terrible counts that other people to send in. But i get people who've said if that could happen to me then. There is no god who loves me and i can continue to attend religious ceremonies on a regular basis. I can continue to be with people who have that belief but my belief is now shaky. But i think that follows on any major tragedy day One of my closest friends made a film about faith and doubt at ground zero september eleventh and in the course of interviewing people she found both people for whom faith that i'd intensified and people who had lost a lot of family in the twin towers who had gone and seen the devastation. There who said i cannot believe in adjusted merciful. God in the face of those and certainly when runs into a lot of that in connection with the true horrors of history. Like the holocaust right. I mean it's it's really the problem of evil in this case. it's what is called natural. Evil your body your being against you. Just the i think in something like september eleventh or even the holocaust which you have to come to terms with is the evil of human beings who can be very specifically identified as outside of you and who can be seen as people who are entirely lost to anything that we would respect or value but who are still people and therefore in some sense independent agents. While i think that in a depression you feel as though you've been abandoned by god and there is no external calls there's ineffective no one else to blame. Yes and and you also write about how the battle because of that the the battle against depression is in some sense a battle with against yourself which also makes the scientific and philosophical challenge a tricky one. doing well you have do feel you do feel hideously betrayed by yourself. You feel as though you know who you are you know. What your for coping on you know when they're pushed and suddenly they vanish and so there is a sense that you think what. What can i lean on within within myself and i think that's one of the particular forms of anguish of depression is i think. Depression is above all an illness of loneliness. I think the sense that you're unable to do things that no one can help you. I mean eventually we're going to adopt drain. He gives us some kind of medication. Or you go. To another kind of doctrine he gives psychotherapy or in fact you go to a priest minister. Rabbi or somebody like that who said if tries to encourage you and to keep going through philosophical and theological argument but you lose the sense of the inevitability of your own being alive. And that's the most lonely isolating feeling a friend of mine. Recently was dying of cancer. And said i'm living in a body that's turned against a. I thought that was a terrible terrible idea. And then i thought when i was talking to someone who is depressed. This is someone living in a soul. That's turned against him. And i thought that's in some ways not at all trivialize the experience of people with cancer but even harder to come to terms with so you're making observations like that. I mean what. What kinds of do you have. Feel logical Ideas in your own. Mind the come out of these conversations. You're having with people. What does it mean to you. What does it say about the meaning of all this about whatever you discovered inside yourself that you can look at a friend and say that's a soul turned against itself i'm very to doctrine to the idea of specific miracles to certain historical models that are celebrated My friend maggie had mentioned earlier has said that those very structures are what saved her. But for me given way that i was brought up. I can't bring myself to believe in them. But i have the sense of present sometimes benign and sometimes not benign that must have loaned us the logic according to which we live. It seems too complicated to have been hatched by mere happenstance. And yes when. I talk about I mean i use that word sold very advisedly. Don't particularly mean something that will eventually acquire wings and go off to the kingdom of heaven I guess though if you say the mind or you say all of those things that get used in scientific discussions of depression like m. emotional infrastructure and faces. They seem to me not to capture till clinical this this essential self and it seems to me that who you are is ultimately. I mean who other people are as always mysterious one. I realized in the wake of depression is that who i am is fully mysterious to me and so since i don't fully know it and since i can't fully comprehend it it's simply that i don't it's that i can't then there has to be some mystical element in it and some element that's obviously present and yet beyond my comprehension and that i think is what i was trying to characterize when i use the word soul because i think the recognition of that fundamental reality has been much stronger in religious writing and in religious contemplation has been in other areas of considering an enterprise Yeah i think i know that. Use the word near the very beginning of your book and the end again. I noticed. I'm not sure you used the other times throughout That was quite deliberate. Actually to i felt given that i don't. I didn't want to write a religious book. Because i am not in any very mainstream way. A religious person that i didn't want adopt the word all the way through. But i felt that it was an important mode of description and i felt i wanted to frame all of what i was saying. I'd like to talk about medication and Wonder you're a person who you are still on medication. I believe on news. I suppose we'll be forever Which is becoming this sort of. The advisable way for people who've suffered multiple depression. Is that right kind of regimen of medication. Do you do you live with now. While i'm in the process of shifting things around because at the moment. I'm really more than i'd like to be a right now. I'm taking lamictal zyprexa. Look at sorry la'mical zyprexa lexa pro beauce for and wellbutrin. So i wonder if people ask you How do you know that this person you are now and these observations. You have to make even this wisdom that you have that that this is really you When you are so influenced by chemicals. I mean how do you well you know. I think that there's an artifice in the idea that there is a single authentic self that is immutable and yet changeable and those surface and in my mind ultimately extremely important but at some level trivial ways. I mean i think who i am was vastly changed by having the education. I did and that. If i hadn't had that education the chemical composition of my mind would be different. The way understand the world would be different. My whole position in the world would be different. So taking these medications brings bad effects which are also brought about by certain kinds of talking therapies and external experiences and on a great believer in those therapies and also continue to work in those areas. And arenas and i think the idea that there is a real self and that changing it in any way with medication is artificial is like the idea that you really have teeth that fall when you're thirty and you're artificially changing them by using modern dental care. I just pray. I just think. The authentic thing goes through periods of flaw and illness than problem and that you have to address those problems. There's a lovely passage from the winter's tale. Which i quote toward the end of the book in which one character in the play has talked about the idea that when you graft things and make a garden in which you have cross bred flowers and all these things to develop these species that what you have is essentially artifice in the garden and the response beautifully phrased and i wish i had it in front of me. I'd read out loud the responses We are a part of nature we are the ones who have developed these systems. These systems involve using products that occur in one way or another. Obviously the word isn't product. These systems involve using ideas and technologies and materials that exist in nature and so our art itself is nature and i similarly feel that people worked out these medications. They help you to be whole if you've had particular are not whole anymore and the idea that that runs contrary to some profound truth of who you are. I think is very artificial. You can decide not to take them because you are more comfortable with the self your without those medications but you could also decide to take them in the same way that you decide to go through rigorous exercise in careful diet and all kinds of other things that very profoundly and fundamentally change who. You are Who you are. Psychologically who you are mentally who. You are emotionally. You're constantly in a state of flux. So the fact that chemistry further that state of flux doesn't seem to me to run contrary to the basic natural factory human being. Here's a sentence. I think may have been from that passage or your commentary on it if humanity is of nature then so our our inventions. Yes exactly yes. Um and it ends that passage with them. The line our that orbit self is nature right so and you know you talked about the miracle of of emerging from depression and and There's this you also quote the poet jane kenyon. We try a new drug and new combination of drugs. And suddenly i fall into my life again and from my own experience i remember that and i think that again is so hard for people to imagine who haven't been through this that it is not like you are changed into someone new but you fall into your own life again so mysterious. I feel very strongly. I talked with people some of the time. And i think i relate this anecdote in the book. But there's somebody who. I used to know slightly in london and i was at a party and then was on my way home and ran into her in the street and i said oh chain has been a terrorist part. It was very long. And so forth. And i said how are you doing. Jane said well i. I had a very serious depression. And i said oh i said. Are you taking medications. If you've been in therapy. She said no. I just decided it was the result of stress and so i eliminated the stresses for my life. I said oh what did you do. And she said well. I broke up with my boyfriend because that was difficult. And i gave up my apartment to just live in a one room place because i thought that would be less demanding and I don't really go out to parties anymore. Because i find being with people is just very difficult for almond on with this catalog and i thought that is not true to yourself. I've known you for years and you were a different person. Though i've made the opposite decision. I have the personality that is consistent with the personality i had when i was ten and twenty and twenty five and then began to fall apart a little bit later on and i have the strong sense that the medications have returned me to myself rather than that. They've taken me away is self and you know. I was in a conversation recently with some extremely area. Die people one of them on the president's council on bioethics bioethicists and none of them had suffered from depression because someone made an offhand comment about prozac or something and then someone else made a joke about. How isn't it terrible where we're coming to that that we give these drugs to people so they'll be happy all the time and that's again going back to earlier in our conversation it it. The drugs sometimes enable you to feel what is bad but to truly feel it to be alive also to real pain and real sadness that's paradox. I think that the drugs put you in a position in which you can achieve happiness. They certainly don't make happening would be lovely to find something that did but i certainly don't think that we have anything of the kind now. I think what happens when you're in a depression is that you lose capacity to achieve any emotional state at all and when you take the medication you have back the potential for a range of emotions but then to find the things that actually give you those emotions remains your private battle so that anecdote about your friend in london and the one. I just told in your own wrestling with this examples of how we even in our advanced twenty-first-century We're pretty confused. About how body mind emotions soul and psyche work together I think one of the interesting parts of your book for me. Was you traced attitudes towards depression from ancient greece. Two now and i wondered you know what you might have learned from that about the wisdom of the ages how we got where we are now and i don't know what you took away from that about how human beings have wrestled with this subject. Well the primary thing i would say on that front in fact is that saint augustine has a lot to answer for Not only question exactly But i think that still augustine and to some extent thomas quietness depression was seen as a perfectly reasonable ailment and it was like having dyslexia and you had and you went to see somebody about it and they did whatever they could do and there was no shame attached to it and then Augustine in particular said that the depression was an illness of the body but if the soul and therefore if you suffered from depression it was a mark of god's disfavor and that completely transformed the way. The depression was understood. And is the basis for the stigma still attached to depression even though by and large we've now given up that augustinian idea and so i think that Religion that christian religion as it existed in the late middle ages essentially brought about a kind of horror surrounding depression which was very much against the interests. Certainly depressed people and as i think you know in the inquisition. If you were depressed. It was seen as an indication that you didn't believe in ultimate redemption because if you believe in ultimate redemption you'd be very happy and said depress people could actually be imprisoned and suffered the various other iniquities of the inquisition because of their depression. So there was a strong sense that religion didn't allow room for this and then there's the rather extraordinary story since we are in america of cotton. Mathur who wrote a book all about how terrible depression was and how people who are depressed should be sent off unexecuted and then his wife developed an acute depression and he lived with her through that whole period and he essentially hatched another theology which was an american theology which said this is a kind of suffering which is part of the great human suffering that god imposes on us and these people deserve our sympathy our support any attempt we can give to help them get through and they need always to be reminded of the love of god because that will bear them through these difficult times so there was a real shift that came about but that's a late eighteenth century shift that lead in fact i think to the improvement in the well cottonmouth ruby seventeenth century but anyway it led to the improvement in the treatment of and dealing with people with mental illness throughout the nineteenth and into the twentieth centuries that there was a very dark period there for many many years so i think that that legacy of christian thinking is certainly still in our society. Although i don't think modern people are as many modern people would tend to be as worried about god's judgment on them mean how is their religious dynamic of depression. Different now do you have a sense of that. Well because ideas about god have changed. I mean religion is such an encompassing word. I think in the american religious right. There is still a lot of stigma associated with depression and a belief that depression represents weakness and that one has to strengthen the face of it and very little sympathy for the idea that it's something beyond weakness or strength it takes strength. I think to be able to battle depression with medications with therapy. In whatever way you battle it to try to stand up to it but the depression itself is not a marker of weakness. I think across religious spectrum when encounters a variety of foods. I mean certainly at saint. Luke's which i mentioned before. There is a very sympathetic and supportive attitude toward that kind of illness in the liberal. Part of the episcopal church quaker ism which will be discussing with your other guest has been extraordinary. it's attitude and judaism has also been consistently very strong because there was never the belief that it was a compromise of the soul to be depressed and so there has always been a literature of sympathy and a literature of endurance. Really that comes out of the book of job which says as it were. Just hold on tight. It isn't that god hates you. There's something else going on. i think a lot. Actually of william james's description of us as dogs at the feet of god. You know that it's in the variety of religious experience. Excuse me it's in the variety of religious experience and he says we think so often that god does something terrible and cruel and we cannot understand how it could occur in the same way one has a dog and when takes the dog and does some terrible experimental surgery on the dog because that will ultimately save the lives of thousands and thousands of people. And it's terrible for the dog who has looked up to you entrusted you but ultimately it serves the great benefit if the society altogether don't discuss with the animal rights people but anyway that's what william james wrote and he said. We are in effect dogs at the feet of god and we can't understand why he's doing the things that he's doing and we can't make sense of them but it is possible without having any comprehension of it to believe that there is ultimately a good purpose in it and i think that there are very strong theological arguments there which say the depression is terrible. It serves some kind of purpose. And i think that's enormously helpful. If you're depressed to feel like i can't believe in anything. But i have other people outside saying ultimately some good. Some kind of good comes out of this. Some kind of good comes out of your battle with it. Always at a a theological conference recently and there is a discussion on psychology. And and the bible and someone gave an analysis of job that where he sort of went through job and and concluded that job was depressed and You know one of the somewhat whimsical. Things that pass through my mind does is that. I was glad that they did not have antidepressants in jobs. Time because it might have robbed us of this great literature which has helped so many people through darkness. Yeah i would say job on the contrary. I mean if joe had been depressed which he had every right to be i think he would. Have you know slit his throat and throwing himself in the river. Jobs seems to me to have been unbelievably resilient through inexcusable. Terrible horrible things. That happen to them. I mean job seems to me more. Like i don't know president clinton during the monica lewinsky affair remained resilient. Despite all of what was going on to lose his vitality which is the yeah they have the analysis was i think i would think for example. Sorry i think for example. The author of ecclesiastes. Dis is depressed. And i think that the descriptions in ecclesiastic is excuse me the descriptions and ecclesiastic all of the vanity vanities all is vanity That stuff is very much the language of depression. You're looking for poetry of depression. In the bible i'd skip job turned to ecclesiastes. that's right and job is really wrestling with the experience. All the way through right I think i'd like to end with something that is maybe the first line in your book Let me see where that depression is. The flaw in love. What do you mean by that. It's a haunting sentence. Thank you it seems to me that in a way the most fundamental and important capacity we have as human beings is the capacity for love and i think the feeling of love couldn't exist without a range of other feelings that it the primary one being the fear of loss if the loss of someone you love didn't make you sad then what substance with the love have if your wife of five years died and you said oh well. She was nice. I'll meet someone else. I mean that's not love as we understand it. And part of what gives love its poignancy in its power is the protectiveness that lies within it. Which is a protectiveness of holding on. And i think that therefore the emotional range that includes great sadness in great pain is essential to the kind of love and attachment that we form. It seems to me that the kind of severe depression that we've been talking about represents an over activity of the mood spectrum but the without the basic mood spectrum which depression is the extreme end. We couldn't have the experience of intimacy which that brings and you also have spoken a lot. About how how do the experience of depression for you And also Let's say a recovery of the capacity or a deepening of your capacity for intimacy. Go together is that also. Does that flow from that same thought. Yes i think it. Does i think the i think. The awareness of my own vulnerability has made me more aware of other people's vulnerability and more appreciative of people. Who cushioned me from the things to which i am vulnerable. So i think it's made me both more loving and more receptive to love. And given me a clear sense than i would otherwise have had of the value of love and i suppose again without wanting to get into a suggestion of specific doctrine that that has also given me a sense that some abstract love in the world which i suppose we could call the love of god is essential and significant and it has been increased in me both in terms of my appreciation for it and my feeling of being loved or held. Okay well i think we're at an end. Is there anything else that this is brought up for you to say anything. You want to expand on our Just think for a second. I think i would say that. I think i would say that. I found a particular comfort in the harder rhetoric of judaism. Though i ve vastly appreciate the more forgiving nature of the new testament that the old testament had a certain at a certain doctrine of acceptance and law and endurance. And never said there's a point to suffering it never said you'll redeemed because someone died on the crawl so that he died on the cross for good reason. The gist of the old testament. It comes back a little bit to what we said about. Joe but also i think to the first five books is that these terrible things happen and you just stick it out and maybe they get better and maybe they don't get better. But there's a kind of hardness in it which one would expect in a depression that what one needs is softness. And i think does need softness from other people but i found those basic lessons which. I had absorbed in the sunday school lessons when i was a child. There was a sternness in them. That i found very believable. Even when i was at my lowest at a time when i couldn of believed that god loved me. I could believe that there was a lottery constructor in the world and so for me as a jew. I think that was a particularly potent comfort to me and guide to me through what was happening now. I think that's fascinating because on the surface it doesn't sound. You would think that those passages might especially might alienate modern a modern person sophisticated educated city dweller. They're much easier to believe if you're sophisticated city dwellers okay that's great all right. Well thank you so much. This has been wonderful. Just what i hope you. Yeah it's been really fascinating. I'd be really grateful if you'd send me a tape of it absolutely well. It will be on new york. But i will send you a cd. We're talking about producing this in january. So it'll be done sort of end of january and i'll send you a cd and also let you know when it's going to be on a new york. Look forward to that if you feel you need anything else. Let me know. And i'm around and about toby in minneapolis for a little bit later. I think i'm going to be away then. But maybe i'll meet you some other time when come through. I will look forward to the. Meanwhile by the way it's usually the case on radio but you do have a particularly fluid. Speaking voices i year. Thank you. i'm relatively notorioius. I appreciate that absolutely. Thanks a lot. thank you bye bye bye bye.

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Marc Jacobs: I Still Have Stories to Tell

The Business of Fashion Podcast

51:19 min | 10 months ago

Marc Jacobs: I Still Have Stories to Tell

"It I was horrified by what I was seeing as people's sort of lack of learning collectively. To what just happened were is happening. It's still happening is hasn't changed yet. Isn't that interesting that we could be the people that scandalise idea of being forced to create something and tell a story constantly what it has no meaning it has no soul it has no authenticity or credibility. Just seem so vacant. I have a choice every morning. I can take care of myself and be of use or I can lie in bed and contribute to the garbage. Hi this is Imran Ahmed founder and CEO of the business of fashion and. Welcome to the PODCAST. It's Mental Health Awareness Week and last week on Bureau F. Live our editor at large Tim. Blanks spoke to the celebrated American designer. Marc Jacobs who touched on a variety of topics from working through the krona virus crisis and maintaining his creativity but also on how the crisis is impacting his own mental health at this time of anxiety and stress for people around the world. Here's Mark Jacobs inside fashion. Hi Tam I'm such a pleasure to see it today. It's always a pleasure to see you. Tim and this will be out conversation for the next few seasons. I guess because we want you seeing each other in well who knows who knows where I am. I am in New York City in my hotel room in Soho Talking to you you've seen in a hotel rooms for the whole luck. Yes yes yes has that been. It's been let's let's put it this way. I'm grateful to be in a place where I'm comfortable. I'm going to start under the start on the. I'm going to start this chat on a positive note. So what have to keep going back to my mind is that I am grateful. I have my two dogs with me. I have clean made bed that I made this morning. I have what I need. I've got a closet full of clothes that I can play with. Have got a couple of makeup bags that I can play with. I have my iphone and my ipad which connect to other people with and I have the where I can sit outside and get some air so I am very grateful that I'm comfortable today and I feel like I'm taking care of and obviously you confidently connect with people. I'm finding. I'm actually connecting with people more than I usually do because quoting about connecting with now. But I have well. It's a strange thing. Isn't it connection? Because I never really I think of this as a type of connection and I we can use these devices of hours to connect with people in some superficial way or in some way that's different but I'm a luddite and I believe in live contact. I believe in note writing letter writing. I believe in seeing people across the dinner table or having a coffee with them I see. I don't see I didn't grow up with life on the screen and I didn't grow up with cell phone in my hand at or or night at or nih-funded whatever and I like live performance in live theater and I liked. I like going into shops. I like seeing people on streets so while this is some form of connection. It certainly. I don't have any kind of real connection to this form of connection. So but how how? How does this thing for you then? Well it's a kind of a kind of goes in waves and spurts. I mean they're I'm very sort of manic depressive. In a way I mean I am you know. My mental health goes from mania to depression. So there are days where I just feel extremely depressed and feel like it's the end of the world. And then your days were mannequin. I just think what a great opportunity for us all to learn collectively from this and move forward and then there's all the grays in between but I mean I tend to go from the basement to attic in five seconds. You know like In terms of emotions and so it's been very hard because I also not really in control of how you feel. You know the ceilings common. It's just a question of how I kind of accept them and and sort of you know honor them etc. So so I've had moments of feeling very productive and creative and moments feeling just like what's it all sore or is that all there is as I keep saying the south. You Camilla Louder. You have exactly. Isn't it funny? How life comes along to trip up those kind of those little notions and give them a sort of real time white. Will you see it's this? It's this computer right here. That fascinates me the most. And that's what I think is always this kind of amazing thing. I have this kind of faulty computer. Which is my brain and it's not faulty in the sense that it doesn't work but it just kind of works as it does right and so. I mean for absolutely no apparent reason. I could do everything I did yesterday. And Go to sleep on time and wake up on time and have my vitamins draped might juices for some reason the Sun could be shining and I can have the most miserable attitude about life and see things through the darkest leads and then I could stay up all night and and and not drink juices not my vitamins and like the sun isn't shining and I'm just like full of hope and you know like so who knows and then yes they're like these songs that comes my head in these things. I've seen in these performances. I know I don't know like books I've read and you know I don't. I'm not in charge of where the where where my brain sort of fires on a particular day but like it just doesn't it and it's like kind of fascinating as kind of goes through all of its little find sub dreaming a lot more. I have some very weird dreams but I've always had weird dreams that I've always been a bit of an insomniac because apparently that's a that's a huge side effect of this pandemic. Is People a happen. Incredible Dreaming Nkala at a lot about real people like either family members will celebrities or whatever but that they remember the dreams full of almost movie. And that's by to pick this. That people can depend up in the daytime and then the minds slowed us. I don't think that I'm dreaming more than I was before. And I think my dreams are kind of still of the crazy surreal content that they always work which combines a little bit of like the tape recorder you know things I've just recently heard but then then concocted into something that might have some other greater meaning but No I find my dreaming kind of the same. I guess you're making a movie while you yeah so via via recommended. I mean she. She had this idea. Unfortunately it was like four weeks in she was like. Oh you should have taped yourself every day. Like just videotaped yourself every day like you had this like you know daily journal like on tape like everything you did just like this endless documentary journal and I was like well if I had started it for weeks ago. It would have been great because we're already for weeks in if feels that will have to do something else. So so nick My friend my best friend and and someone I work with very closely you know at. Marc Jacobs He he and I came up. And we decided we'd do more of a fairy tale like this this kind of life in quarantine more of an louise or a you know like or a home alone or something like that right played all the characters who would normally be here at the hotel but or not like what kind of well everything from the porter to the manager to the chef in the restaurant to the housekeeping to the engineer to the different people who are residing in the hotel to the different things. I do in my room on different occasion to me documenting my set like just just just like I never any element of the other look creeping in. No just just just anything. I can do within the confines of this hotel. Your instagram is being incredibly vivid. The whole time that you've seen in Lucca. It seals almost like you are testing out characters in well. I'm not really I'm I'm kind of just you know I've always been this way. This is like this is nine year old mark who you always was in his bedroom. Escaping chaos of what life looked like you know like a very disturbed and dysfunctional childhood. And I went to my room and I sat with my clothes and I painted my jeans or embroidered. Jean Jacket and I put on my outfits. I comb my hair one way or the other and you know maybe I found a curler for my mother curled by whatever it was but that nine year old kid that me was like a in his own world in his bedroom and had to use his imagination to create a world. That was a happier place. And that's kind of what I'm doing I mean. I have two months worth of clothes that I packed to move in here. I'm I have a couple of bags of of makeup. That randomly for some reason felt were important to take with me and And then you know just and the dogs and Some hairclips jewelry and I'm just playing around and and keeping myself entertained and and doing what I do which I think is taking care of my mental health. I mean I have to get up everyday and shower and I have to Rome and I have to get dressed and I I just feel like not only do I have to do it for my sanity but like I enjoy doing it. So it gives me pleasure and it allows me to kind of be of service in some way. Because if I'm not well. In taking care of myself creatively and in every other way then. I'm of no use to anybody else. I mean I just can't lie an unmade bed all day long. It's the most pressing thing I've I mean. I used to see my mother who suffered from manic depression. She wouldn't get out of her bed sometimes for weeks and her bed was never made and the site of an unmade bed to be as just about the most horrifying thing. I can remember. I remember when we talked before the day. Before your wedding and you you said that you could feel at slowing down important you well. What's important to me at it is? Yeah well well I think I think I I feel oddly before all of this started you know. I feel that that last show was very telling of what I really was thinking. But that's that doesn't surprise me because all the shows are somewhat autobiographical. But I'm told the story of the New York that I remembered that I loved and that I still love but is gone and and the kind of the movement and everything in this sort of losing the fashion within this sort of thing. I mean looking back on it I think. I've enriched the story even more but but it had shades of all my heroes and and it had my fashion life is a New Yorker kind of told and I I kind of felt in. Katie reminded me this. You know after every show. I say like if this was the last show I'd ever do it was I'd be fine with it. But she said you were so emphatic about the last show and I did feel like like things have got to change. We've got to slow down. We can do this twice a year. We have you know I would like to say something creatively but I can do it twice a year. I mean the idea of being forced to create something in tell a story constantly would it has no meaning it has no soul it has no like authenticity or credibility. Just seem so vacant. And the amount of craddock that produces that goes nowhere but phil's landfills and just end this greed and this all of the stuff that goes along with it and besides how destroying the world we live in. It's just like everything just felt to me. Like what the fuck are we doing? So Charlie and I decided to buy this House and build a house on the water well rebuild or restore a house of water and it became very symbolic because for the first time in my life you know I wanted to leave the city and I wanted to get out and I wanted to slow down and I thought I wanna live my life and I want fashion to be a part of it. I don't I can't have this be my whole life. You know that that show felt so climactic to me. The show would Carolina Teijin the dance models and it was such an orgy of creativity. Felt you know if you think of if you think of the LAS looks people that that that Pasolini last movie. Oh something is nowhere else you could go to and I wonder if I wonder if you thought it was. It seems almost prophetic. Now that that would be I do I do in a way I mean. I've said this to my psychiatrist. My lovely doctor. Richardson Frank and I've said it to Katie. And I said it to everyone around me you know. I would be very happy if if that were my last show. I mean because I feel like I've said what I have to say. I said it beautifully unlike by but it isn't really true because it whether it's my last show or not that's fine but the urge to make things and create hasn't gone away so I still WanNa be active and I still WanNa make something and I still have stories to tell but maybe I need to tell them in a different way and maybe I will tell them in a different way and maybe fashion will continue to be a great part of how I tell my story but I don't I'll miss alive show and I'll miss an audience because I love theatre. I mean it's my first love. Nothing can replace the emotion and the feelings one gets from being in a room and seeing something performed. I've seen that show videotapes and I've seen edited and I've watched that videotape and it reminds me of what it was like to be there but I don't feel like what it was like to be there. It was Overwhelming it was well. But you can't get that feeling through a recording and I have never seen a live performance recorded that has blown my mind. It is true. I do think that this is going to be one of the massive for the fashion industry replacing the physicality of When some kind of technological well but it's no different is no different than talking about shops to me. The when people started saying. Why are you shopping in stores when you can get it all online? I don't understand how people can be satisfied by ordering the coat through a picture and receiving it in a box and putting it on and saying Oh. I like this. I'll keep it. I love to go to a shop. I like to see everything I like to touch it. I like to try it on. I like to have a coffee. I'd like to have a bottle of water. I like to get dressed up to go to the shop. It's a ritual inexperience. And there's there's emotion and and cinema involved with shopping but ordering online in a pair of Grubby. Sweats is not my idea of living life. You know when we talk you quoted Lara with taps. Few of you'll free ended long. Ana Rectum movies the Matrix movies and she'd said to you. This is a landscape of the world. It is changing and I feel that you know there are people like us who who still are incredibly attached to physicality for the physicality yes. I feel a rates now that and by codes online and doesn't fit secrete the physical experience of walking talking ceiling generation. After that does I do think that. Let's hope that generation is alive to to to retell the story. Because honestly Tim I just I do think like I I you know. I say this like there's such is such a hard thing to talk about because I know that I belong to a different generation. I'm leftover generation as are you and I got that from Kirsten enemy. And she kristen McMenemy and she says the leftover generation and I think it's very appropriate I do value physicality and I do value the experiences that I grew up with an I cherish them and I'm grieving them right now and I don't see that grief going away anytime soon. I have to go through this process. I think it's going to be a long process and will other people want you know once again will some will some species once again. Seal the value of this. Perhaps maybe not maybe we will just become data while you know you think about what we is your entire life span in New York. You've seen the city of the curves Utah. I I lived in New York. Nineteen seventy I just remembered in. The city was backgrounds and it was incredible. It was it was a very dot the city and then later on. That was all the other you know. There was nine eleven. That was A AIDS before that yes was hurricane. Sandy you know. The city has taken some enormous legs of here. Is this. Yeah but that we're talking about New York City but this is global right and fashion shows. Don't happen in New York. I mean already less season. It was back. I I felt that again going back to the show. It was a little bit of a farewell because already there were no shows in New York. It was difficult to get models. A lot of people didn't come to the shows. You know. Ralph didn't show this season and Tommy showed in London and fewer shows than there were so I have been saying as my team that we don't know if they'll be much of a fashion industry in New York. Will there be factories that we work with. Will they be able to stay in business? We've been saying this for years. So will will the people who have the skill still be around to make the close the way we demand they'd be made and will people still be traveling to New York because it's become less important than of a place to see fashion and I I know that New York we'll take some other shape and the landscape will change. I don't know that I like it and I don't know that I'll be around to ultimately see it but you know like everything changes for better for worse. That's the way it's but we're talking about the world and New York City is not the world. Although I grew up thinking it was all my life but I think this is happening in the world but also it's really enforcing a sense of community. It's made the world shrank is it? I think so. I think I don't know if this from all the things I keep seeing the I mean and again maybe I'm watching the news or maybe I'm just focusing on this but you know when when certain places opened up the behavior the system all looked like it was like oh we start back today and we start back the way we left off so it was very disappointing to see the collective the collective mentality was. How quickly can I return to what I was doing just before this happened? You know no masks jogging on the street in stores buying up close in stuff and prices like I mean it was disgusting. I was horrified by what I was seeing as people's Sort of lack of learning collectively. To what just happened or is happening. It's still happening. This hasn't changed yet. We're in it bring three months and I think it'd enormity of it is still beyond process. I think of course it is when it's when it becomes effective is obviously the. I didn't think we've started to see changes. We haven't started to really appreciate yet. Nominee family you know I I would say give it a year or so. The world will be a radical. Well I've already. I mean you know I mean I again. Speaking from my own experience we had to lay off. A bunch of people asked week. I mean a lot of really great talented people that I've always worked with or have worked with for many many years. And we had to ask the remaining people to reduce their salaries to half of what they were making. And some of them can't afford to live in New York under those circumstances which is which makes cents so. I'm not really sure how what will be able to do with what we've got left. I don't know how I don't know how will approach it. I don't know who will be left to approach it on you know and And I I'm not sure what will WANNA say once we come out of this anyway so so I am left with a lot of questions but on the other hand we do have a system I mean we are part of a larger system which is a big corporate structure that basically funds us in finances us that we responsible to and their thing is. How do we recuperate the business? We've lost so that we can continue to survive and do what we do and each within each each a brand of the Group. We have to hold our own and in order to do that we have to. We have to survive economically. And I feel I'm I'm very torn morally and ethically and then I think well you know I can. Only I have to continue to create something in order to have something to sell. And if I don't then how can I continue to fund? I mean it just so difficult to answer all these questions and I'm not talking about now the whole world and how they're gonNa do but I I think about my heart in this world and I think it's this is my part. Each person looks at their part collectively. We're all in the same shet but if the system isn't going to change than than than if the changes in total if it isn't across the board then don't know how much of a difference it really makes you when you think about what you do are you. Are you going back to what we did? At the very beginning of why you did what you did. At the very beginning what drew and well now. Because I'm thinking of creativity. I'm not thinking of fashion specifically. I'm talking to you about fashion. Because I'm a fashion designer and fashion is how I express myself creatively for many years but I think about the conversation of essential and I I think about this quarantine and I think where would we be in quarantine if we didn't have Ashton or if we didn't have movies or if we didn't have music and we didn't have books we'd be sitting naked in our thoughts with some bread and some water because and some oxygen. 'cause that's what we need to survive. We need bread water air. That's it right so I would not be sitting here in a sweater and pearls and a hair clip talking to you in your finery. I would be nude without any of this. I I mean so so I need creativity. We don't need it. It's not essential to live but we wouldn't want to live without it. I don't think I would want to live without it. I'll just speak for myself so I know that I need to speak to you about work. That's created about the dreams of future work to come about the new movies. There are to see about the new songs. There are to hear about the new dance craze about the new trends about the new artwork. That's going to be made about like all of that stuff without that. I just really have no desire to go on. The vast Santos quite the other day on the live at. It seemed great perfect. I pointed meech the same. We have so that she will. We have said that we shall not die of reality. Will. That's perfect. That is absolutely true so I believe will dance again and I believe we'll be creative again now how that looks and how that feels. I don't know and I don't think anybody does. Have you been looking at during this? Oh I've been looking I was It's funny because it's funny. What is that? I post things on instagram. And then what happens is art dealers or people I know in our say like oh. We saw you posted this. You might be interested in the work of Jean beaver so I looked her up. And then I saw her working I understood immediately why they thought I might be interested so I find. Instagram is a funny kind of ping-pong game. Like I find that I I can use it as a kind of tool to play this kind of match this game where you know you post something somebody responds to it. They sort of say something back and then you get turned on something else and that inspires you and then you turn then you go back with something new and and I. That's how I using instagram. Really as a form of like a kind of volley and So I've I've discovered Gina's work and I think that's great and a couple of others Whose names have not. Oh Well I discovered David Kramer because of Selene but A few a few artists that have I. I didn't know of these rights. No I don't know who that is. I'll look up soon as we get off the go online to look at freeze Neil. I didn't exactly what that was. That was the beginning of the whole notion of transferring physical experience into the digital. Well you know that you could crews there on line and you know now we're going to be seeing digital fashion shows. June probably Jamba and I just wanted to. How successful that's I may. We'll try nice cruising through freeze online but I'll tell you one thing with art. I find again like with theater if I know the work. If I've experienced the work in real life I respond to it online but if I see it online I don't have an emotional primitive connection to it. I do not look at a Rothko and cry online but I stand me in front of six. Roth goes and I'm overwhelmed or Barnett. Newman or something like that. But when I look at Barnett Newman online. I see stripes. But that's not what I see when I saw it at the tate. You know so like it's a very different physical experience to look at a canvas than to see it reduced to a thumbnail online. Isn't that funny but was that sort of the needs of commerce. You know for freeze needs to sell up so I put it well. That's we're all in that boat though anybody anybody who's selling Look if we were all making art. For Art's sake we wouldn't need host it. We just get the pleasure and the full experience would be making the art for ourselves. But it's not. It's like what was that. Was it the moon six pence that was the story of Gauguin's roughly where he was like? You make art for Art's sake and that burn the canvases. Because the only thing he needed to do was make the art. He didn't need to show it he didn't need to sell it. He didn't care about people's reaction to it. He didn't care of it he didn't care about it as a commodity. But we're not talking about people who are making art for Art's sake. They might their initial reaction to making artists. They have creative need to fulfil but then that goes to another level which is like putting it there to have. It looked at and judged appreciated or not and sold. What did you think of besides here that that you know great outcomes from catastrophe that off the world who up until the one that was Dada and surrealism after World War? Two that was abstract expressionism react. I know that you'll save. You told you a favorite painting with some Asocial Mona Lisa with a moustache. Yes and allow Oak Yes. I can't save in French so it sounds like a pundits supposed to be but You know these audits were responding to disaster and I made incredible. Well changing works of art. Yes something could you imagine something similar happened after this? I'd like to imagine something happening after this. I wonder with all of our current laziness based on the screen like what that will look like so. I do believe something will happen. I don't know if I'll be able to connect to it because I it might be created with a medium that I have no connection to so again. Maybe you know this IPAD and these like Henson's that you get from apple and whatever joy like something will emerge from this. I'm not sure I'll be able to connect with the medium in which is created out of. I don't know I don't know it's an interesting. Not you're not just sean scandalized. People and I know scandal. Isn't that interesting that we could be people that the new Isis scandalise will? I hope so. We could be that generation. I wish someone would do something that would cause such a reaction in me. What have you seen? That causes a reaction. What have you seen or heard? Well I've certainly not been scandalised by anything. I mean I find things offensive but I don't find them. I find that offensive to my sense of morals taste but that's but then I come back and I say I'm judging and I don't want to be judged it's not my job so some you know and it's very hard to also not be hypocritical and judge like you can't like so so. I'm trying to not judge other people and other people's behavior and what works for them and all that so But it's quite hard because I like I said I'm not scared. I don't find anything scandalous. Just find some things repulsive which is good. Turn not so good. Well it's different. I think what it creates in me as this kind of desire to just disappear like like if this is what it looks like. I don't want to be a part of it. You know what I mean. So I don't think it's a stimulating sort of repulsion. But what what what has given you the most sort of Sucker why you've been at the most what you know the most reassuring You know the bomb the bomb sealer. So what did you what music business into? What what Ti. You Watch okay. So I haven't really been listening to music. I haven't really been listening to music. Actually it's first of all most of my day is spent on facetime or texting resuming lately. So so it's really the sound of my voice and the dogs drinking water or barking or happy nightmares. Whatever and So I haven't really been listening to things during the day I find I find? I like the quiet of the room. I really liked the quiet and I put the TV on at night. And sometimes I watch things. That are very interesting in sometimes. I watch things that are mindless if I need mindless TV. I go to Love Island UK. And if I want something challenging or something interesting and informative or clever or than people recommendations. In Princeton's Lana recommended a documentary called. Crip camp which I thought was amazing and she recommended a film called touch me not which was incredible to watch. And I've watched you know all the usual that everybody else's watched the tiger kings and the Hollywood's in all that stuff and But I don't usually put the TV on 'til dark. And I told you about deaths already. Yeah and I'm going to check that out. On Hulu. In America Yeah debs and you find a what deb's means the very last second which is very interesting I'm curious about You told me that you love dancing. There have been days where I've danced. Naked my bathroom at the you know there was one conversation I had early on. Actually it was on the facetime with long and it was so inspired me so much and you know I say I love dancing but I do. I've found that when I've danced. I really enjoy that energy. But I'm not like Lama Lana lives to go out dancing for days. At a time I mean she loves Berg Hine and she's living in Berlin with her wife and you know she lives to dance for days and days but I found her conversation that day or our conversation so uplifting I took off my clothes and I went into the bathroom and I was dancing around. I was listening to lay Rita Mitsuko that eighties hit Ma and I just kept playing it over and over again and I was dancing around and it felt so good. The release was incredible but but I don't regularly dance. I do listen to Philip Glass But that doesn't actually get me dancing but I'd love. I'd love the release. I mean I'm looking for a release right now. You know what do you think? Do you think you'll look back on this moment? God only knows I just want to get through it. Yeah I think I haven't been able to read a book which I signed kind of me too. I'm the same. I can't focus on it that ends. I wonder why that is. I think it's people the effects of this. I mean I've I have been reading some newsletters about mental health. You know what people don't understand is how phenomenally important mental health is and the effect of this quarantine on US psychologically and emotionally and physically and everything else and even though he thinks that we know what it feels like. I think there's a lot like I've tried to be on. I've tried to do this. I've tried to be conscious and aware and you know incite like used my insights to like kind of correct my behavior but I can't always do I just sometimes just can't seem to find the motivation or the focus. Even though I know it's what I'd like to be doing what I think would be a good thing for me to do. I just think extraordinary that we're living in a moment that nobody could ever predict it. I'm willing sort of. Everybody has seven indulgent end of days scenarios. And this is. This is one that just we never imagined. I think it's been an interesting when you talk about people just sliding back into this patent behavior when confronted by the implacability of something like nature here. And it's just so huge and you think about I I go back time to this The industrial of hundred years old at H. Is How many millions of years old and so we have out little antitheses government and then suddenly the huge corrective. There's a line I heard many years ago and I think it's very appropriate. If you WANNA make God Laugh. Tell Him Your plans or let's turn into isn't that he said something like that. Yeah well I think someone said it before John but it's okay but but but what is quote you gave me that. I loved about creativity just now and have said that we shall not die of reality. That's perfect you have to send that to attacks or something. I will absolutely I you one of the things. I thought that so one of the things that always been so thrilling to me about you as a designer is your curiosity and the way that you're able to turn a fascination with a single ride across into an entire world or this sort of incredible cinema of fashion show that that very few people have been able to capitalize on his successfully. What what what you find your must curious about at the moment. I'm curious to see what life will be like like you said I think I think I'm frightened by it. But but you know fear and excitement or kind of the same thing in a way So I'm afraid of what might be like but I'm also excited about what what adapting to life might bring you know like that. That's it so it is. It's a prospective thing. Isn't it like you know on the darkest days I fear it and then on the brightest days or when I have those lenses on that are clear? I'm like I'm looking forward to seeing how I can adapt to. What is you know and So so adapting and acceptance and sort of creating again but I don't I don't have anything specific in mind other than than like will. It could be an exciting moment to to to make things again. You know because it's it's like saying about creativity coming out of catastrophe that Human beings have some fundamental needs. And some of those fundamental needs. We have One of us is is one of the beauty of the world around us. You know that you know how many people talk about good song. The I've never like always singing like that before. We just never heard. Now we do and I just. I would hope that those experiences stay with people when I'm the I'm just again. I'm I'm afraid I'm afraid that that's very beautiful vision. And and it's a lovely thought but I'm afraid that that we're too far along the road of destroy destroying ourselves making ourselves for that to be possible. I I really am. I mean I think that business is like those birds get drowned out by business all the time and we'll be again. I guess I'm afraid I'm afraid of that. But but then but then again if something is learned if something shifts if something changes than that may be. I don't know it's it's so it's too early in this process to know. I say this is the end of the beginning. I mean we're we're when we're even not even halfway down this road we have love. I don't even close to halfway. I think this is just like and the fact that people could even think like. Oh thank God. Two months this is hundreds of years in the making two months is not going to turn the lights back on. Guys it's like it's so illogical the thought process of like right so we've had to be locked up for two months. Let's just turn the lights back on. Go back to the way we were. It's like it's more onic. I did ironic. Now it's more on it. I don't know we have leaders that are running businesses not countries and that we have we. We have leaders who are cynics and analysts lips and lions as well which is no but so there is an answer revolution. I'm glad that this way ahead of me on this one because I've been saying that for the while well dives with. That was what we talked about him. You and I did talk about this over the summer in the end of years and years. The mother says that fantastic speech. She makes that dinner table. Which says you're all to blame. What are you going to do about it? And they caused this revolution. They fight back. And it's like I think you need an upheaval or revolution of such enormity. To Change Anything. There would need to be a full on revolution in order for this to change now. I don't know that I've got the energy to lead that revolution nor the desire but I certainly would sign up for it. You know the fact is that revolutions come a lot of the times out the spring from necessity and the needs of billions are going to be pretty extreme over the next to the while at amyloid honestly dynasty hat or it won't be some I mean. Obviously what I think would be civil unrest at some points. I don't see how they want and -solutely then we have a privilege recondition existing. Listen to us but you know again. We're as I I. I am listening to us and I'm speaking to you and I'm speaking to you from my very comfortable. Hotel Room dressed nicely. After shower and again I keep thinking about the conversations about privilege and when I think about civil unrest in people who are going to be without. I think I speak. I don't I don't WanNa be that person either. I don't WanNa be that guy who talks about what will be in this place of privilege. I don't know I didn't know how to be another person than what than who I am but I'm sitting in a comfortable hotel room and I'm saying I'd like to make a difference and I'd like to make a change and I'd like to be a part of this revolution but I'm quite easy to say in this in this situation and I and and there's so much going on that is ages and racist and sexist and everything else and all the other shit that's going on and then throwing Miss Rona and you're with fucked just what you feel your role. Your responsibility is ridiculous. And I feel that what I can do is like you said I can only do. I can take care of myself and by taking care of myself I can then be of service to someone else and whatever way that means I is it varies. I know that if I'm good to myself I take care of my health. I take care of my mental health than I can contribute to the benevolence of this world. Right I have a choice every morning. I can take care of myself and be of use or I could lie in bed and and contribute to the garbage. You know what I mean. So if each person collectively could do one small thing by taking care of their self in some small way than they could maybe contribute to the good of this world maybe they could hear the birds and maybe they could smile at somebody else. It could be kind to someone else. Maybe could be generous to somebody else. You know. Then I mean we'd be in a huge lead better place than we are right now. You know that there is. There is a lot of that going on right now. There's I was reading a big big a huge article Lindy And again yesterday about aid and about basically grassroots support things you know helping people everywhere around the world and you get a sense of how change can come you know. It's it's quite inspiring ignoring the lack of leadership from those listed cynical lying amended that we talked about the people doing things for themselves helping people helping helping the people in this street people in the next house lawyer if people can if enough people hang on feeling that they get from that and this this. This is a huge. This is a huge crisis that confronts everybody if enough people hang onto that feeling of the positivity that that outreach that they manage to commit to this was going on you know that is a revolution of a kind. Yes it's true but it has to be collective you see. The problem is when it when you're outnumbered it. It still works. There's no reason. Listen whether I'm in the majority or the minority I'm GonNa continue to take care of myself and do nice things for other people. That is what I am going to do. I'm committed to that now whether people see what I'm doing is being very kind of kindness. Their form of charity or their form of That's another story so people will judge how I behave no matter what but whether I'm in the minority the majority it doesn't matter. I know I'm good with myself right now because I know that I'm a good person. A kind person and a generous person and a creative person and I will continue to give as long as I'm healthy enough to be able to and and that's that's that's what all do and I think if it is collected and if it's on such a scale it's like I think of that Diet Over that Coca Cola commercial. I'd like to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony. It's so corny. But it's so perfect like if everybody just raised voices in if everybody opened their with and if everybody did like it would just be. The sound of. That would just be so amazing. But if you've got half the world or more than half the world's sitting saying like Oh let those queers saying it's not gonNa work but one the the the the way Ford you've got you've done throughout your careers. Collaboration competition and we need we need to collaborate. And this is what's coming out of this. I think is that people realize there is strength. Collaboration that at isolation is at `isolation disenfranchising collaborations. No Man is an island. Each man's death diminishes me. Right is something to that effect. Never send to know for whom the bell tolls to President. Now you said something that so I guess bothered me when we talked last time you said documentation of what you do is not important to you and I sense even now. Even though you're not thanking God i WanNa keep blue for whom people will be inspired and the future of people who will will understand why you did what you did and why it was important. I don't know I think I think I probably was feeling very negative day. Were maybe I was feeling like what's new? What for sorry nervous about your speech at the wedding. Yes I will as I was but I kind of feel like maybe again. Being present isn't about receiving information you know like and so maybe it is an important to document things like maybe being present and just experiencing things rather than experiencing things experiencing things with the weight of what information we've received. Maybe that trouble like maybe getting older. In the more information you receive the more you learn actually prevents you from maintaining this night eva to say that that is like intra a child has has less experience in his therefore able to sort of be present and respond naturally things and with the weight of information and Experience. They become like burdens. And so maybe you know again this idea of being present. You need to be uninformed. I don't know I don't know I have no idea I've no it's A. That's the ignorance is bliss argument. Well yeah it is. The ignorance is bliss argument. Yes absolutely and I think of children responding to a good story. A and how children learn three stories. And how you've true that's true. Of course it's true. What would be your ideal scenario now? Oh God I don. I haven't really thought about what would be ideal. I mean I'm trying really to live in the moment and I'm not really thinking much about the future or I'm trying not to think about the future because in this moment I have faith that everything will be some version of okay you know. And that's that's GonNa keep me from staying in bed. You know what I mean. I'm going to get up as long as I have face and if I have gratitude and if I have faith have to be present because outside of the present that's where fear gets and so I'm just I'm I'm really trying not to go there to live in your house by the sea. I hope so I hope so. The perfect the perfect source and Ali in a way. I hope so I mean that's that is that is I think again. That's if I could write my story that's how I'd like to end is in that house a year amounting yes but if I could write my story I mean Including the end. I'd like the end to be the last page of that book. You know as seen in the movie where I finished writing and the book closes and I'm sitting there and it's silhouette of my back looking out water looking at Greenwich Connecticut from this Beautiful Frank. Lloyd Wright House in the Book Closes and the movie ends and the Glass Soundtrack plays and camera pans out the most beautiful sunset. You've ever stay. Yeah I'd want to be as Cliche as humanly possible. Yes thank you very much mark. It's wonderful cameras always a pleasure to talk to. You seem very Hertzel. If you've enjoyed this episode don't forget to subscribe give a rating and you might be interested in joining the business of fashion global membership community. Peo- professional are members receive exclusive deep dive analysis regular email briefings as well as unlimited access to our archive of over ten thousand articles. Our new IPHONE APP and all of the online courses and learning materials from off education.

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S11E17: Dating with Depression

Dateable Podcast

1:28:12 hr | 2 months ago

S11E17: Dating with Depression

"The dateable podcast is an insider's look into modern dating that the huffington post call one of the top ten podcasts about love and sex on each episode. We'll talk to real data about everything from sex parties. To sex droughts date fails to diaper fetishism and i moves to first loves. I'm your host new issue. Former dating coach turned dating sociologists. You also hear from my co host and producer. Julie craft chick as we explore this crazy. Dateable world low everyone. Welcome to another episode of dateable. A show all about modern dating modern romance. Modern love everything modern in these unprecedented times as we dig into the whys of people's behavior wise of your own behavior. Kovic has i think just Open up a can of worms for a lot of people in terms of like know themselves. I think i've learned a lot about myself. During this time things that i thought i got over like things that i had worked through in the past but everything is sort of like surfacing again which is interesting to me but mental health is one of those those buzzwords that keeps popping up. And it's it's really prevalent right now. Well now that we're entering the second wave right feel like there is even more time to devote to that but i was actually looking at stats and this is kind of crazy. But said that depression since cove it has tripled in the us like people that have kind of gone and seats help for depression. So that's just even people seeking it like. I know a lot of people have been really struggling with the isolation and now that things are shutting down again in california probably other states will start to follow. It's it's crazy. Like i feel like i've just been talking to a lot of people. Recently you know have been dealing with feeling like loneliness feeds into depression and yeah like we're going to go into all the weeds today with our guest tony. That were super excited to have on. But it's almost like depression is like a vicious cycle. I think about liz especially with relationships and you and i talk about our own experiences. Either you know like having bouts of depression of also. Ddh people that are depressed and it's a really hard situation because it's like i think of it like a cycle. It's like the person that is experiencing depression. It's almost like sometimes you feel like a burden for like leaning on people when you're in that stage but then at the same time when people like pull away which is a common cause of depression. The people in the relationship have trouble and it's almost like i think i read somewhere like one of the me. One of the main reasons for depression outside. The pandemic of course is relationships. So like when you're a relationship isn't going according to plan it can really send you into a spiral. So it's like a cycle. I view and sometimes even people that are feeling depressed. Don't wanna get into relationships. They pull away from relationships because of depression south it definitely shows up in relationships for damn sure and it could absolutely terror down the relationship because as we've talked about our experience dating people who are dealing with depression. Is that you as as the partner gets depressed because you feel helpless you feel like you can either for your partner or your partner is choosing not to show up for you which is not the truth. But it's like when you're in that relationship and your emotions are tied to this person. It's really hard to separate the two. So i'm really glad that we're bringing up because we've talked about mental health ending before he'll were specifically talking about depression for this particular episode. Because i think it will be relatable for so many of you out there. Yeah we talk about two in this episode that there's very there's different types of depression like there's more seasonal depression there's more clinical depression that really like you know has to do with just your own genetic makeup but i think covert is like. It's almost like a deuce slew of seasonal depression and yet like i think a lot of it comes down to to how you're managing it and what steps they're taking so it's not to say that like people that are experienced depression or unbeatable by any means. I think all of us have bouts of depression in different ways. It's just how do we like manage it and kind of work to be the best version of ourselves with it. And i really like that in this in this conversation with tony is that we don't. We don't talk about depression and mental health as a way as an illness. Because it's part of who you are. And i think part of it is cultural differences like i taught i bring up sort of growing up in an asian household where you think about depression as you're at fault while you're depressed because you made you got yourself there. That's really the case. A lotta time or editor jerry. It could be imbalanced. So i like that. We don't place the blame. It's more about if you have feelings of depression. how do we navigate. An how do we thrive in that environment. Because it is doable. We definitely recommend people to listen to the older episode. Because it was. I think actually by the bid are both popular episode or one of our top episodes is called mental health dating with jonathan fan. Tram who has a startup called reflects so we talked a little more like high level. He also did share his own stories and own challenges with anxiety and depression but we did talk like more high level of how it shows up in dating and relationships and of course was pre pandemic. so there's a little bit of a different twist. But i think a lot of that stuff is. This is a good complement to this episode for short. So go back to our back catalogue. If you haven't or just religion again. I might do the same. I think it's always helpful to hear these types of conversations absolutely because it helps you put language what you're feeling sometimes you're just like What is this thank zayed's it's not anger at what is it and hearing other people's experiences has really opened up my leg. My just my vocabulary up at how. I describe my own emotions and mental health. So it's really fantastic to listen to these interviews even if you're kind of newer to the space you're like oh this is the first time m starting to feeling not myself well. This is the perfect way to open up. That conversation with yourself about what is happening in your mind or if you have a partner that's going through this. It's definitely that. I think it was really helpful to hear like i've experienced this with my axe and i've obviously heard his experience. But it was good to hear tony. Who is like totally moved. You know because it's like the emotions of talking about it with a partner is different than just hearing someone else share their story and i think there is a lot to be learned from that and yeah i mean we haven't i was looking back like what episode was it was seasoned seven that we touched down so it's been a while time ago definitely go back and check that out but i think we also do a call up front and we said this in our last episode like if you really are you know in a place that you're feeling like really bad thoughts right now. There is like prevention hotline. So other is one eight hundred two seven three talk which is a twenty four hour crisis center and you can obviously always call nine one one. If it's an emergency so definitely learn from this episode but if you are feeling like this is like a really bad state lake take those extra precautions and for everybody else who may not be experiencing this right now. Reach out to your friends. I think this is the time. Reach out to your family. Reach out to your network I've talked about this before. But around this while i guess a little bit before this month of last year. I lost my College roommate to sucide and she had been battling depression. And i lived with her for almost four years and i never saw any signs of it and i keep like replaying our years together and i'm like how did i not see this and i've had long conversations with her sisters about it and they're like we didn't really see either she just came off so Jovial and just so like supportive all the time i had no idea she was battling these internal demons so to me. I regret not reaching out to her. More especially in moments where i felt like. Oh everything should be fine right. Everything seems like fine. She posed on facebook. She post on instagram. She seems fine. Just never know what someone's going through so just one tax one phone call could save. Someone's life believe it or not hundred percent agree on that. And i think that is the part. That's hard as you think of someone. That's depressed as being like sad and gloomy. And that really isn't i mean they may be experiencing that in private but a lot of times. The external like a lot of comedians have depression in. That's like a very common thing because yeah a lot of people that are super jovial like especially very extroverted. Like sometimes when you're feeling like the need to be around people all the time it is covering some of the inner stop and i think that's why this pandemic has been really challenging for people because that's almost been like stripped from them so it's like facing those demons like head on so i think sometimes it isn't the obvious people and i think also it's not always people that are like single or lonely people can be lonely no matter their relationship status so i think that's also important to remember that just because on facebook. That looks like they have it. All it definitely does not mean that and it shows up in different ways. It doesn't show up in the kind of overly character character characterized way of someone to get out of bed and i'm depressed. It could show up in your work life you up in over posting on facebook. Sometimes it could show up in the way you talk and you don't even realize it. I think it also shows up in this is related to our episode last week. Is your your own body it now. You sure and you don't even realize it. Some of the times. I felt the most down have been because i don't feel good like bonnie wise hundred percent correlates like we heard from erin last week. If you haven't listened to that episode definitely check it out. Who is i think what i feel like. I'm always saying this is popular visit but every episode every season of the bachelor. This is the most dramatic season. This is julie dateable. This is exciting. But this actually truly was our most listened to episode in some of it to come because of the time i mean some of it was the topic and then some of it was the timing of it being after we were featured on new and noteworthy like the top shirts and so i know up there. We're not like at the top because they've added new people but we are still on that list right now is a basic stuff again. Shout out to all the new people. I've seen a ton of new people coming into the group that have said they've found us in the last week so we are so happy. You're here. we're happier taking that next step and coming along. Well people have said they've just been going through and pinching all the episodes so we'd love yes and all sides. Yeah exactly but i think back to the last week's episode. I mean like some of the stuff that was said to aaron. It's like that because you know like you don't have bouts of depression. How can that not make you feel bad and depressed like it's it's just so crazy but it's so crazy and that's why that's what inspired are. Would you rather for last week. The question was if you're given a pair of magical contact lenses that can make you see bodies differently. Would you rather the contact lenses. Make you see yourself your own body as perfect all the time or see other people's bodies as perfect all the time this is why you as although would you rather like have like the past like you know creative like magic contact. I just love it. I would never even think of that. Virtual worlds. this is how we pair well to evacuate. Yeah i smoked. That's what it is. I'm all the time anyway. The would you rather up a day later because she needs to smoke. I yeah this is why it was a day late. I was like oh shit thursday. It's like your weekly excuse but it was. It was so interesting seeks cockpits on the facebook post because we were putting these up on facebook and instagram of course on instagram. You can always. Dm us like southern hobbits to on facebook. Just feel like there were so people that were like either. Nothing is perfect and i totally get what you're with us. It's a witty rather. We're not saying like it's your perception of being perfect. I think some people clarified that. Well it's like i think erin. Actually herself she's been active member of the group which has been great along with tony. Jaa guest this guest source our guest. now let's leagues. But she made a comment like it's all about looking at like the wrinkles or the scars in seeing as perfect. And for that reason i would go with myself because i actually think we're a lot harder on ourselves that we are others. I very rarely find myself. Judging other people's bodies like for the most part. I'm always like oh like they look great. I wish i would look like them. It's more of like. I wish i would be like that opposed to like ear. What is up with that. I don't feel like those thoughts. Don't really run through my mind that much. So i would definitely choose myself because i think harder on myself then probably other people even view me. You know that's interesting. I think you see my lipstick. Going into mike and mike. My lipstick is now on my microphone. This is what happens when you were virtual makeup for my the for the magical ends up. I think the thing is and some people have mentioned this to some of the men have mentioned in our facebook group. I already see other people as perfect an hardest on myself. So i would definitely choose that and other people have been like i could really use that boost of confidence so if i e myself as perfect body in my eyes then that will give you the boost and then Some others have been. Like if i see other people as more perfect than i can focus more on like the feelings as opposed to like the physical of i guess shortcomings and i think that's where i am too because i've mentioned already i. I also work in the fitness industry. I'm constantly looking at people's bodies and sometimes is hard for me to get past their physical body to get to like. What is this person really like. Knew what what are their key characteristics. I fail to see that right away. Because i'm constantly looking at bodies as for my job so if i can get to a point i would psych and my job get fired but if i can get wait and see past is a coal bodies and i think it would be less of a distraction for me so i would choose the other or maybe we get promoted. Because there'd be more diversity in bodies there you go there you go if you like everybody. Everybody's perfect but you are more in the majority with what people said. Eighty percent of people chose to see their own bodies as permitted versus where i am in a twenty percent of people choosing to see other bodies as perfect either way. I think it's the key. Here is the perception of perfection. It's not that these bodies perfect is at all of a sudden. You're like yes. this is. What a perfect body is in own my own world. I feel like there was so many great tips like aaron shared. Obviously a bunch in the episode which even made a comment about like in the episode. She talked about this of like recognizing your so called fall. See now in like being like this. Sprinkle is beautiful. It has made me wise. Like what is like the different things that you can point out in one of our other. Facebook members She'll be made a comment about like when she gets home. There's like a tactic. She uses that she liked. Takes off like her jacket or gets ready for the night in like removes basically any. She's removing something. It's like removing all the negative thoughts of that day. And i love that so much. So it's like. How do we keep training ourselves to see this stuff. The imperfections as blue. That's a really great ritual. Talk about ceremonious like go home and move all the negativity with each piece of clothing. Been speaking of other great rituals. We had our first installment last night of the sounding board people you know. We did our first monthly challenge that we have another audio series. That's part of the sounding board available for all members. Whatever level you join that and it's been great. We talked about limiting beliefs last month. And now this month. It's all about dealing with ambiguity which everyone can relate to right now again cova time but even before covert i feel like there's so much uncertainty in dating and relationships and it's all about. How do we manage that. So we had a discussion group for anyone that wanted to of. You're always welcome to do this yourself. You don't have to talk it out but people really loved it and they said there were just so many interesting revelations and hearing people's limiting beliefs like i got some feedback that was really great. Hearing men and women share them because a lot of times. We think we're alone in how we feel also hearing someone else's kinda like the body thing. It's appreciating where they're coming from and then having that compassion next time like you're with other people on dates like you're like no someone actually might feel like this is holding them back so you're not in the sounding board already. Definitely get in there. This is another callout. There was a little confusion just for some new people coming in just to clarify. We have a facebook group love in the time of corona. That is a free facebook group. We do ask that you fill in the information because we do want to still make sure it's filled with dateable listeners. And friends and not just like randoms off the internet. So there's that but then there's the sounding board which is basically get up bring things the next level which is our paid membership site and we do have a facebook group for that to do the happy hours and podcast discussion groups and now monthly challenge discussion groups. We also have other features we've talked about was sounding board depending on your territory there. You know our monthly dateable after show events which we have a great one in store this month with logan jury. Another favors ask guest. If i might say what time. He's gonna do that every time you say that in. Also we have a coffee date so our coffee date with you. And i so definitely check out dateable. Podcasts dot com slash sounding board. If you want more details we'd love to have you as a member. The whole point is to know that you're not in this alone. You don't have to navigate through this alone. None of us to be alone at any of this. And that's why we created the sounding. Board is to not feel alone even though you can do these exercises and watch the events by yourself and not interact. That's totally up to you. We don't force any sort of interaction but isn't it nice to hear that other people are going through similar things. I mean. it's just something really nice like it's not misery loves company. It's more dislike. People love company in their thoughts. That's it speaking of todi guests. Today at a few other members have ordered their dateable murtaugh his instagram models. If they choose to. we had one other member. Chris say that he was kidding. Photos done by. I think his sister but they both the two of them at least both the socially distant yet emotionally available at Sweat shirts or t shirts. And i was like you guys got to put that in your dating profile out. See what response is we get. So you haven't got march yet. It's dateable podcast dot com slash shop. And if you're sounding board member there's extra discounts for you. Too man i will have to do an ab test them wearing the shirt in their profile photos. Our english shirt and see how many more swipes they get. I'm totally doing that. When i get my quarantine from five boys shirt oh it you have to the has to be every profile photo you have to. I can't wait to get my stay. Dateable fanny pack accepted as a sell out sold out. We sold out of a lot of stuff but eventually when it comes back and stock. Can't wait for that. So we've hyped up tony enough where we want to get to his interview or his discussion. Kate saying interviews like he's not interviewing for a job but before we do so. I wanna take a moment for a sponsor better help and this is a perfect episode to bring up a better help as well. It's time to take hold of your mental health in these crazy times. Some of us are experiencing feelings. We haven't experienced before like for me. For example is feeling of of a not being control helplessness in anxiety so much anxiety so working on your mental health is extremely important. And that's why we love working with our wonderful sponsor better help to ensure that we're not alone in this. They offer online counseling with professional credible and compassionate therapists in a safe and private environment their counselors specialize in depression relationships trauma and many other areas with three thousand us licensed professionals across all fifty states. They make it easier than ever to find help in fact so many people have been using better help. I love this. That they're recruiting additional counselors all fifty states and now dateable listeners. Only you get ten percent off your first month with the code dateable guess started today by going to better help dot com slash dateable in join over one million people taking charge of their mental health. Again go to better help dot com slash dateable and use the code d. a. t. e. l. e. for ten percent off your first month. Now let's get to dating with depression with tony. This is a pretty serious topic. But i think it's also important to talk about in a way that isn't so like oh my gosh. This is so serious. Because i think it should be normalized in mainstream so we're talking about dating and mental health and depression. That's what it is and our guest today. his name. is tony thirty one. years old. Currently in new york city moved there from san diego in two thousand thirteen is currently hooking up in having fun single and actively going on dates. Am he's doing it all also from our facebook group. The revealed that this topic though we've talked about mental health before but this episode specifically we wanna talk about depression and we do want to clarify. Depression is like this over arching term. Use for so many things and i also think in the last couple of decades. We've made it almost. We've made it such a big deal anymore. That people just freely say on mula depressed today and for people who are who actually have depression and it. It takes away from their experience. so Thank you julie for for pulling up some definitions of depression and what. It could be either many different kinds of depression. One of them could be situational or seasonal depression and this is purely due to circumstances You could have major depression. Which is some would call clinical depression. So you've been diagnosed by a doctor. A professional and is usually due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. And then there's bipolar depression. There's also postpartum depression. There's manic depression there. Many other extreme levels of depression as well but the point is no matter what hype or what level of depression you have. We need to find ways to learn more about it and also to find more empathy for people who have depression that there are living with so tony. Thank you for joining us. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey and where you fall on this spectrum of depression It's interesting because i just feel i. It's always tricky right. Because i think everyone has their own perspective of depression or like how it came about mike. I'll talk to some friends who have depression and we'll have different point of views. How do we cope with it. How do we deal with. It have different triggers etc. But i think me. I'd probably like usually always when towards the seasonal area and like sometimes i feel like that's where i get hit the most it's like during the summer and winter And i feel like if they're like other times in between them might triggers are sometimes always like perfectionism or work. Being really stressful. And my need to like always do more or do better or so. I feel like it usually depends i. I've also looked like some definitions of depression. Like when i was first trying to self diagnose before i started going to therapy and relate some things where like if you have like these symptoms for about two weeks. That's where like ends up. And i've never had two weeks of depression but i've had like ten days. It's like a thin line. yeah. I didn't hit this tweet minimum. I'm trying i'm joking. Trying calm but yeah. There's always points where they will last like a week or so but i've never liked the two week area so that's a thing that that's what we think made me not question it but just know that it comes in different waves. Yeah that definitely was something that was in those definitions of like having the two week. But i totally see what you're saying. It's like a little subjective like what is ten days were fourteen days like is it really bad different. But what is depression. Feel like for you described that So i always. And i've seen like different definitions of it but the one that i always enjoyed the most was sort of just having like a cloudy feeling so there's There will be days where you know things that usually would make me happy. Don't always times will before koren's in started that. I was still like find ways to go to the gym swim but i got no enjoyment out of. I just did it because they woke up berlin. Felt like if a tour those days or would sometimes you know isolate more than i have to now As that was like the interesting thing that i was talking with a friend of mine was like oh. It's a weird you know we have now. We're forced to isolate. So now. I feel like i'm in depression. Twenty four seven. Because i would always. In days. That i was depressed. I would want to stay home. Not hang out with friends. Or i don't know so that's where i felt like that's how mine felt like i was push people away or not want to be as engaging as i usually am a usually want to like tex people the other doing but when i'm depressed off the loan. Yeah i mean. I've definitely dealt with like situational like after a bad break up. I was definitely feast depression. But i dated someone that that was more on the clinical depression side so i of firsthand some of the stuff. You just mentioned like the isolation not wanting to return to phone calls and tax when you're kind of in that state like how has it shown up for dating for you. Because i know being on the receiving side of that it was definitely like there was challenges and it was like one of those things that you wanna obviously understand where the other person is coming from and all that but it is hard to feel kinda pushed away when someone isolates and all that. What are your thoughts. It's always tricky. Because i felt like honestly in my twenties. I didn't really deal with my depression. Well i probably never really mentioned it to anyone and it was like one. Say turn thirty. And i also you know what i'm going to make a change and i think that's when i started going to arab. There are times where ever since. I started dating afterwards. Not saying i would bring it up right away a win in a second or third date with someone and just sort of came up in the conversation. I wasn't doing it to self sabotage. But i felt like it was important for probably had gone to therapy that week so i was like what i'm just bring this up and it was just really interesting because when i was talking to her about that i didn't get the response expecting she was wanting. Oh we'll tell me more. Like oh okay cool but i think it was fair because then i learned later on why we continue dating where she told me that her ex was going through depression but he wasn't really working through it so i think the reason she wanted to know more about it was to understand. What are you doing to work on that instead of just kind of hoping that i wasn't gonna turn her into my therapist or something like yes. I go to therapy. I find different ways of going like i understand. Sometimes when i'm in the middle of depression. I can't always fix it but sort of like had away make sure this doesn't affect everyone else around me negatively. I think that is a really good point to bring up that when you are in your bouts of depression it's like something has taken over you and you feel like not like yourself and you feel like there's no rhyme or reason to why you're feeling down and that's something i think is what's great about depression if i never said that in a sentence before but what is great about depression is at the face of depression has changed the years a used to be. You think the person who's depressed is like the loner you know who's crying and who's all goth and who's like oh my life but now the face of depression is like happy. Go lucky people every day that you would normally say. I would never think this person would be depressed like talking to you tony. I would've never said oh. I bet tony definitely is depressed. Sometimes you know but it just shows a show. Many people have experienced the depression and it. They come in all different shapes and sizes than all different looks at all different moods. Yeah i mean. I'm thinking of like i know. This has got flak of maybe not the best portrayal. But i'm thinking of like an hathaway's episodes i always think about and i ain't i definitely because i i was with someone that was dealing with depression so i did see some of those similarities there but in that episode. I'm not sure. Have you seen modern love tony. I haven't things about it. That's in particular this one like. She basically is dealing with bipolar depression. And she meets the sky in a grocery store and everything is on top of the world and they set up a date and all that and then she falls into one of these folks in basically has to cancel on him last minute into him. He has no idea what's going on because they just met in. I guess my question for us like have. Has that ever happened before. Like you're ready to go meet someone or go on a date and then you're just like i can't do this Yes that definitely has been before. I ended up and i like always the tricky part right. 'cause of had this conversation for that you can't really prepare for wednesday depression's gonna hit like it's not like it's all right cool you know. It's you know it's october. Fifteenth has at times like now it comes becomes make the Sometimes he wears possible time. And yeah i. I don't know it's just that has happened in night have canceled. But i've given like the something came up or you know depending on when it happens. I try to not do it the day of good. Luckily that's never happened on the day of but it is. It has happened like some days before. So i definitely cancelled just because i know i'm not going to be mine tired true self or at least i won't have my best representative there. You tell your date if that does happen new. I feel like if if i've i've i've seen them at least more than once or twice jake ed be fine but if it's someone never met before it'd be a little bit tricky to just throw that out there. I was gonna ask you that because like by acts like he shared it with me like on. Maybe let gars thirty about like this what he was dealing with. But i didn't understand the magnitude of it then so like back. Then i do think i actually can't recall a couple times where he kinda cancelled last minute. He didn't say that it was due to depression. In a time. I was kind of like. Oh my god. Is this person not like me anymore. And like all the stuff is running through my mind as we went into our relationship and i knew more he was more like. This is what's going on. It has nothing to do with you and kind of assured but like what. Are your thoughts like how to manage that. Because i totally get not like telling everyone like every last detail about yourself online date one or two or even before date won a guess depends right because i feel like if that person is going through it. I guess it's kinda hard not talk about. I guess you can just say like oh you know him going through something that we're not like fully saying depression because i feel like that can be really scary to anyone you know you. Just tell them early on. Because i like like we mentioned before there's different definitions of depression so you can say you have depression as obe. What so yeah. I think probably that person is ready to say. Hey you know. I'm going to prussian. Sorry i can contact you once. I feel better i. I don't know that's the tricky part about that. But i think being able to just say. I'm going through something in in the right state of mind at the moment but i would still like to meet up afterwards. I think that's sort of like a probably better approach. Because like i said it's kind of tricky to just say Early on i think. That's the safer route like. I said i think it depends because if it's someone who's never had another thing with me beforehand like before going to therapy had never really knew how to talk about depression. I felt like. I have to say that at some point and think i'd be a little bit more comfortable because they've had the experience of talking with a therapist for two years or almost years have been able to better verbalize might depression. So i think that also plays a factor too. If that is someone has really had to verbalize their depression. That's like and how to go through it then. Sure they're not going to be able to tell tell someone that they barely know about depression. I think there's nothing wrong with saying you're not feeling well or something. i mean. technically that is what is happening. I think like even do recall my ex doing that the beginning but i think what he did was he followed up in like me that plan or was like when he cancelled he was like. We're going to reschedule or something like assured that it was it like a ditch. So i think that's the thing is we always say on this podcast. Is you really have no idea what the other person is going through. So like sometimes like i think in dating we tend to think about ourselves so a lotta times like we assume like oh. This person doesn't like me or they don't want to be with me when in reality it has zero to do with me or whoever. It is on the receiving end. But i think like what you said about Like as it progresses like. Have you had any situations where you've been dating someone for a bit that you've talked about it openly outside of that one person you mentioned not entirely a not as detailed might just because we dated for like four or five months at that point. It was a little bit. I felt more comfortable but it's also because she asked more questions about it mike. During that timeframe. I probably only experienced depression ones but it was for a short period of time and i didn't really get into it because we didn't actually. She was on vacation. So i was in the press which was on vacation clarify that. That was just perfect. Timing no So yeah Besides that like since. I've been able to verbalize depression. It made it easier to have that conversation with her like previously or any previous instances. I always joke around that like my twenties. I was really good at deflecting my emotions so it's sort of like now i've sort of gone to the point now where i don't mind talking about it but yeah i think like beforehand. I definitely did not have that. Did not have those conversations. We said something interesting that she didn't have the reaction you're expecting. What was the reaction that you are expecting well. So that comes with like stigma of mental health. Like you just always assume. Someone's just gonna go straight to the negative in being ill what i don't know that's probably not the exact reaction but like i don't know in interest because i remember the first time i spoke to a friend about depression and the first time but like the first time i spoke to him about depression. It was really difficult. Because i don't know it was just sort of one. He could fully understand which is fair. For if someone's never been through depression. But then i think he started like feeling bad sort of like. Oh that's not what i wanted. A right to have an honest conversation. Just like a pity party but then he was more concerned about. Oh what could have done better is nothing because you didn't know that's why couldn't you can have done anything because he didn't know about missions because that's just how. I handled that. So i nine. I think that's always the tricky part like when it comes to stigma it's easy to assume someone's gonna look at your experiences. Your experiences negatively said of with like curiosity. Well that's the problem. I think culturally to this place into what i've experienced growing up in an asian household. Is that you treat depression like it's a contagious disease and hear about someone having depression there. You're just like that doesn't exist. it does exist. Stay away from them. Because you might catch it and i think that's just culturally how agents deal with mental health. And that's why so. Many asians have mental health problems. Because we've just never dealt with it. I'm curious to hear what you're obviously amana color. I see that people listening to this. Don't so i came out. Was there anything culturally to that. Made it challenging to manage depression Yeah where to begin and then won't say that as a man of color. I think i just start off with the first part which is like being a man in general because in cultures of like specially either latino or black backgrounds us sort of. Don't talk about your emotions. I didn't really learn how to verbalize my emotions. Because honestly my dad never spoke about his feelings or anything so then like going to high school or junior high school in people would always sort of like let's say like talk negatively but is sort of like you weren't allowed to talk about your emotions like how you felt things he couldn't it comes across as like a form of weakness away so yeah growing up. It was really difficult. Want to talk about things like that and difficult in my early twenties It did help that. I went to college with a friend who. He majored in So he told me that our school had like Free therapy for students. So it's sort of did help that that was an option Yeah now i yeah. I don't think society it's made it easy for me to talk about my feelings at all but it like i said i wanted to make change so that helped in honestly. Sometimes i've been more vocal talking about it on social media which has been pretty cool because my friends within asked me about like depression. Like i've been feeling this way i don't know is at the prussian doodo nasa by experience. I mean like i. I think there are a lot of studies. Actually that men the men are more prone to depression and also not even that they're prone to it about the way it's handled so think like a stronger correlation with depression and alcoholism drug use with men. And i think that's because of the vocalisations right of like women are taught to vocalise where men aren't. But i do think some of it is also just you know our generation because like i'm a white woman in my family also repressed all sorts of motion. So i think he like not tried of is obviously a man of color. But i think it's like a definitely a generation thing that like mental health is having more of a moment now in its therapy is cool to go to or like a thing that you do where back in the day like i think. A lot of cultures would never dream of going to therapy in our parents generation. Oh yeah definitely and women. I think women still have a head start because we can put names tour feelings and then are just starting to connect the dots. So they talk about like. Oh women are better with their emotions because they talk more. It's not that we talk more. Is that when we talk. We talk about feelings and when men talk they talk actions. Women are like i felt this. I feel this men are like. I did this and i do this. And that's where the where the catching up needs to happen with. Men is like you're not putting like a name to your feeling. So how do you know what you're really feeling if you can't even name it. You sound like my therapist. It's true because sometimes show ask. Hey like so. How did this make you feel and i was. I don't know. I think this is like on used the word think like what was the feeling thought. So no that bet is a fair point and things always an i do agree generations play each factor like i feel like our generation like if someone said that they were going to therapy. They'll be like oh so and so when therapy without what's wrong with them our generation's as i went to therapy say it out loud star. I had a friend tell me the other day. She's like after my haircut. I'm going to see my therapist for coffee after the thing. What about okay. So speaking of men with depression more. What about sex drive. 'cause i know this is like a thing like have you experienced anything like this that when you have depressive episodes it affects your sex drive or not sure if you're on any sorts of medications but i know that that also is impact sex life eric sexual wellbeing directly definitely heard that medication plays is like relative towards the. I don't take medication. And it's not because of that. I think it's just more because i'm just always concerned on like how medication may affect my like. I've i've never had to take meds more than like either. Thank killers like fractured my wrist or cold medicine so like i've never had to take medication past not feeling well physically. So i'm not really confident. In what have a having to take a medication for like a year would affect me in general not just like in sexual perspective but i think just mentally but yet now i will say like definitely it when i go through depression. The last thing i'm thinking about is wanting tap set. It's probably eight or have sex like both probably out the window. Let's hold that thought so we can take a moment for our sponsor now. The holidays are the perfect time to get a little bit more. Glam d- up even if you're attending more virtual parties than past years thrive. 'cause medics yes cosmetics. 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Sherpa us to provide real time guidance and wisdom in a more intimate way so we can navigate dating and relationships together. Join the sounding board today by going to dateable podcast dot com slash sounding board again. That's dateable podcasts. Dot com slash sounding board. Okay let's get back into this condo. Yeah i mean people will say though. It's like okay so it's a chicken and egg. It's like if this is something that truly i think with depression you can learn how to manage it but it might just be something. That's part of your makeup right like in general anyone struggling with depression. So what's the line of being ready to date versus like getting your own self in order. 'cause yeah i've thoughts about this. I'd love to hear yours. I think sorry. I feel sorry. Thank you feel. You're such an evolved man. The therapy i. I definitely feel that i. I don't know i think that's why i didn't date a lot in my twenties or date long-term in my twenty s because i just didn't really get a handle of the and not saying that that's the main reason why now that i think of my time in therapy. It's made it a lot easier to manage and understand verbalize all of the to the point where it's cool like now one you know once. Im dating someone in feel that it's going to go somewhere. I can actually have that conversation. Honestly i feel like that's that's probably going to be the difficult part of the conversation in general just because just finally getting more comfortable being emotionally vulnerable so accolate. It's always gonna be the tricky part where cooling. How much of depression do i talk about. Because i've had to deal with this now for like eleven years so almost twelve so yeah so there's a lot of tap into of years in in there's different levels and how does it get some point. We're lake sometimes in things. I always talk about like the difficult. Part is when someone always repeatedly asks. Are you fine you even though you're not but you're just saying yes yeah fine yep like no sure yes no. I'm not someone that was like ivy that this is something that i definitely dealt with that. I think like one of the reasons why my relationship ended up ending. Was that i. I feel like he was like isolating because of depression and i wanted to be there for him but he also didn't want to bring me down with depression or right. It was like a vicious cycle. Or it's like. I need to also do this myself to get better in to work through this but then i would feel like you know kind of abandoned. It was just like a cycle. So it's like. How do you kind of work through that with a partner and i'm not expecting you to have all the answers but with love your thoughts of like how do you a backgrounder the experience of this tour thoughts. It's like it is kind of a chicken and egg situation. Because it's like on one side. You need to do your own thing to get an order but if you keep like pushing someone away they're gonna feel neglected I'm comes down to really communicating through all of that because one of the difficult parts with depression which we mentioned like isolating yourself and it's going to be difficult especially if you live with a partner or continuously date someone where i think. That person has to legitimately say like. Hey these are what happens with. Depression is how. I tend to act or what happens during this timeframe in my cases i do like being by myself because of that same reasoning but if a partner said like hey like i want to be there with you cool. That's fine but i think at that point. I just don't really expect to be like the most verbal person. So i think that's a difficult part leg. I don't mind you being here with me. I'm probably not just going to be the most enthusiastic person speak with right. And i think that's where it was coming out of like. Oh i don't wanna. I don't wanna be that state to be around you but then you know it's like it's a tough situation as someone on the receiving end too because it's like you want to be supportive of someone you want to be there for them through their struggles but then at the same time it's like let's say we talk about the depression that last two plus weeks like that can be a long time for someone to be kind of apart if you're in a serious relationship i'm not fully sure of the answer because i lived through this not sure of other fully handle it but it was. It was definitely a challenging thing. That is beyond what you care about in dating. I think it's just one of those things that you have to. You have to accept that it is part of life and that it's not just phases. No it's a part of life. And i i did a someone a lovely person who had depression and he told me the way he found out about. His depression was through his father. Who said you're probably going to get depression. It's it's in our family. It's hereditary and i will tell you how i've coped with it. So his father passed down some really great tips for him but one of the things that he does is he can tell when he starts developing symptoms and that he knows from when the onset of symptoms where he sees them and feel them it will take him about twelve days like he's gotten down to a science so at the at the onset of symptoms he would tell his partner. This is happening. And i will need twelve days of isolation and he's found out through many years of trial and error that 'isolation works the best for him That's what he does but he told me his friend to something. Interesting is sure it works with your partner because maybe you can work out some sort of like a plan. But if you're just starting to date someone would he do and his friend. You don't like when you come out of depression when you're feeling good you have all these You have all this advice for yourself for when you were depressed so. His friend created journal. That wrote down everything that he wished he would have done when he was depressed. And he made them into template attacks so it will auto fill and on on this day. I will said this text message. 'cause i am not in the mood to send it. If he were to write this while he was depressed he would not have been motivated. But this made a very easy. Just autofill day. one. I send this day three. I said this day five. I send this and it worked very well for him because at least it was it was genuine authentic but also it took the pressure off of him to try to keep up while he was in his bouts of depression right. I'm just thinking like twelve days in a new budding relationship like yeah that's like maker break time. You know it was tough in a serious relationship but as someone who is dating some that person who is depressed. I would much rather know what they're going. Oh yeah than having twelve days. Absolutely no tabby communication. I'll give my ex. A lot of credit like he was very transparent from an early stage. And i think him saying this has zero to do with you like it made all the difference. I think if i did it my head would be spinning in so many different ways and then julia someone dating him. You almost have to accept the fact that that's part of your relationship that you are going to be long weeks at a time that you won't see each other. Yeah and i mean. I think there's no sugar coating it that it's it depends on where someone is in their journey. I think there is like we talked about earlier. Depression is a spectrum. I think how you navigate and handle depression is also a spectrum like if you are talking to therapist all the time like maybe you'll be better equipped to deal with A romantic relationship at the same time. But i think like that's the other side of it from someone that isn't necessarily dealing with depression dating someone with depression. It's like there is like how do you navigate that like how do you go through it. I definitely i admit like i tried to do my own thing when this was happening and it was hard and i wish i couldn't say that like i wish i missiles like i wish i was a stronger person that i could just be like. Oh i'm going to do my own thing and not worry about it. But i think it did bother me that i couldn't be there wasn't letting me and even though i know logically. That is not what was happening. It's like they were dealing with their own stuff. But it was very hard for me to decouple those two things and i mean yeah i guess like that's something that i think is a struggle with it. I think though it is communication is how you're handling it all that. That's actually a good question for tony. Which is what is something. A partner has done or said to you. That has really helped you to share your experience with them I think one aspect. I remember someone else where i'm not gonna lie. They also went through depression. So it's kinda weird. It was easy to talk through depression. When the other person can like relate bite me be like really should. We both connectors okay. I realize i've been listening to the lake. It would be weird if we were both depress at the same time. Because maybe we'd understand we'd like cool. Well we're gonna have our own space for twelve days and we get it happened but yeah i. I don't know. I think what's helped from like any partners is just curiosity and the dangerous asking questions not as it judgment perspective but just sort of like i kinda wanna to know what i'm getting into like i wasn't a partner. Those more a friend of mine they were like. Hey i know you like talk about depressionol. And jose definitely not in the mood for that but I've written articles about them. So you're more than welcome them. I know that sounded so weird at the time. Like i mentioned in the middle of it i can. Yeah you can go to my medium there's medium. i know it and it was like a point that you mentioned sometimes writing wore one of the one of my articles Depressed letter to myself. So whenever i am going through depression i actually read it so it's just sort of like a reminder that this is only a temporary is only like a temporary perspective even though at the moment and probably thinking. Oh it'll get worse it's like because he always relapse great piece of advice. I think we should marinate on that for a little bit. I think we can all even if you're not depressed. Y'all have our good days and our bad days are good days. Write a letter to yourself to pump you up on your bad days on your lows. We could all use that sort of arrangement from ourselves. I mean i know. One thing that i did with my ex was going through something like i definitely was like. Oh i wanted to do something again ito. I'm looking to like hang out in. He was going through a situation. And i basically stop pressuring him to do stuff and i was like okay like left him voice message and i was like. I'm gonna you know back off right now in like. Do you call me kind of like if you want to meet up this weekend. And if not then like i totally get it in like you like you take your time. And he responded back like the next day and was like that message. Meant so much that you just kind of like like letting me do like figure stuff out myself and not putting that pressure on. I will admit though for by our to do that. So i think that's like the balance though is if you are dating someone and i mean by all means this is not like the whole reason our relationship and like i. I've had so many wonderful traits. It was like this is something i think you said. It's a you know this as part of the entire package right and it's like. How do you manage this together. I think that's what i was looking for a little more of like. How do we do this together. Where for him. it was more like. How do i manage this myself in. I get it. I'm not sure. I wasn't going through it so i also get that perspective but yeah love your thoughts toady of like manager at west somewhat. Get on your own. I will say i. I love the idea that you didn't. They not saying that you would but as you didn't guilt him into going. It's always difficult part with people with you know going through depression is they can't on something and then they're just going to be like well. He'll always cancel That's not going to be helpful. So i've probably done that before. But not in this instance. No but honestly i feel like and not saying that. This has been in relationships. That i will say what has helped with friendships. Is the friends that i've been able to vocalise. Might depression with and they know that. I'm currently going through the though just usually just either come over. And say hey. We don't have to go out. 'cause like i don't wanna go anywhere public but you come to my apartment will like watch tv ice cream ice cream. What flavor. Who can resist ice crave. How dare you. How dare you laura me with ice cream. So i don't just honestly sometimes the best thing for in for me. When i'm going through depression. That would be perfect for any partners. Just sort of just hanging out together but honestly not talking about it. Because i feel like most time. That person isn't gonna want to hang out to talk about the brushing. They just need sometimes. They just need like an escape then. Just someone to be there that. I think that goes a long way like i know. Like sometimes My friend when she knows that. I'm going through depression. She's a k- you know. How's everything going. It's okay. I guess in. They're like oh all right. Well you know. I'm always here to listen or if you wanna come over rican. Just do something. Sometimes it's like small acts like that held more than trying not try to get to the bottom of it. Because i feel like most people on. They're going through depression. The last thing that they're gonna wanna do is to talk about it. I think honestly talking about depression. Wind people aren't in the middle of is usually a lot easier for me to talk about. Depression is a lot. It's it's easy when i'm not in it. 'cause right to call are able to recap all of this but like all right but during yeah i think. Yeah i definitely notice. When i said things like i'm here if you wanna talk or like more putting it more passive than active right like if you wanna do this. I'm here for you nothing. That is a really good technique and you do mean it when you say it but one of the biggest challenges i faced. When data someone depression was the unprinted unpredictability of when it would hit right. So i i always felt a little bit let down and why is because we have a few days of amazing days together like this person is so wonderful and i feel like i'm so close to fall in love with them and then all of a sudden they're gone because they've hit that they've hit that first symptom of depression and they've isolated and it was so demoralizing for me because i felt like it was setting me up for failure and setting me up for disappointment. This so how do we on the other end of this manages feelings. Because it's not it's not the the onus is not on the person the onus is on managing my own feelings and how to deal with at all any ideas this is up now i mean i think the first thing that came to mind for me was i need a therapist about me dating someone with depression. Yeah i yeah. I think that's the difficult part. Because i haven't really long term dated someone who also went through the depression. I have friends who. I know that they go through it. You don't really talk a lot during like if they're going through a sort of like hey here to listen. I i think that's the thing like sometimes if someone wants to talk about it it's more like oh. This is not for feedback time. This is more for nodding zim. Yes so i. I don't know i i think sometimes yeah. I think there's always like. I once saw this article a that actually like broke down. How how it is for partners with depressive partners. Instead of just like a guide through that i haven't i don't remember when i read it but i thought like articles like that would usually be helpful like usually coming from the partners perspective. Because i think it's gonna be really hard for the the depressed person to really give the best options of this is what you should do from this point of view because i'm not there now. I don't think it should be on them. And i've a hundred percent of ton. Google searches just like you also felt exactly the way you said it. You think you summed it up so well. It's like you almost start to feel a little depressed yourself like kind of like triggers elite lake again. Not everyone. I think it all depends on your own thing. I think i definitely have tendencies of depression myself. So that's why for me. It triggered it so someone else might not have that happen. I mean i think the best thing would be one. Yeah like we said is to get therapist on your own like have those conversations but then also just like. I think what helped me was like. It's like one of those things. Like i had a baby like repeat front of mayor like this has nothing to do with me like i think it's like one of my fallback says i tend to take things personally and this like exactly what you said you like kinda sets you up to take it personally. It's like oh you've we've had all these amazing times together then you followed off the face of the universe but you have to stop and be like that is not actually what's happening in fact checking yourself because like sometimes your imagination can start to wander in like come up with all these stories so it's back checking iping. Just you know finding other things to fill your time. You're not constantly thinking about what someone else's going through like you obviously want to be there for your partner. But if they truly don't want to talk to you in that time like there really is not the you can do like the sides you know. Find something else to do. I remember going to the park in like reading. Because i'm like. I need to just take my mind off thinking about this because i'm not. It's not helping anyone in that situation. And then when they are there to like come back you also don't want to be like angry because then that kinda like sets it up again so it's like working through your own emotions but also i mean i think some of it to depends like if someone's actually getting helper not in that's like a big part of it like are they taking steps to manage it or not because i think that is a huge difference yet. Thank if it was if you're dating someone who had depression in wasn't actively working on it. That's probably the worst part of it I usually know. I always give a recommendations to friends. 'cause i love in my in psychology so i love reading about neuroscience so have like a bunch of books that i've read about depression Just mind so the current one. That i'm reading is called the upward spiral so the way sort of defines depression is like a downward spiral. So the first half explains the brain aspect of like you know like oh there's a different neurotransmitters in your brain that like forces people with depression to lake really take things harsher than people that don't have depression so it honestly sometimes as simple as a you know my brain x. Completely different than yours. Specific things happen I know the second half talks a lot. More about Because i haven't gotten up to that part but he liked the author sets up where there's specific things you can do to improve it so like even like with quarantine. I definitely felt sometimes a bit not really depressed but just really in. Low moments. Select something really simple as finding activities. That would make me happier in try to do that. And i know sometimes it may not always work but sometimes you know small things like walking outside or going to a park The worst part for me. My biggest nut suppression hiller. But what really helped was swimming. I couldn't really do that. 'cause gyms are clever so that it really liked forced me to be more creative so i know like working out isn't always going to be mike cure but like i just find anything that doesn't really forced me to think a lot so sometimes watching tv and i know like usually it's always weird 'cause sometimes watching. Tv people use as a happy thing due to escape like sometimes for me. I watch tv to get depression. It's it's always like small things like that. I just find tools that help is that 'cause you're like kind of in someone else's life like it's like a fantasy of somewhere else. Yeah i'm not dealing with my own problems at you. Look at me wrong. But i find out what i'm watching. Have you guys ever heard of a little fires everywhere. That's all this food right. Yeah yeah yeah. I was watching that. During and i was like. This is not harmful. Qadir's something like what is that show about. it's dark it's not like a depressing show. But it's just really dark and i got through like three episodes. I need something else. I'm not trying to live that life. That feeling right now gonna watch scrubs or something exotic. I think what you said though. All of that applies to you a your question about. What do you do as someone. That's in a partnership. Because i think it's the same right it's like how do you find things that make you happy like whether that's you know. It doesn't have to be exercising but it could just be like doing art or like whatever your hobbies are like whatever that might be. I think that is a way. But i think also like you said about reading about things like that is really important for someone that is on the receiving end. Also because you're right like someone that's going through a depressive state is not gonna wanna be educator time like that's putting way too much on someone like that's just not fair at all so i do think if you are in a partnership especially if it's something serious like that's it's kind of like unlike thinking about it in other ways to it's like if you're dating someone of a different religion or you're dating someone of a different ethnicity like you take it on yourself to learn about them so it's like you kinda need to do that with depression or mental health as well right. It's always a balance and we need to strike that balance in every relationship and as the partner you need to know that it's unrealistic to spend all your time with your person. Yup but how do you keep being productive in your time and in your relationship. If you're physically not together you can still move that relationship forward. I think about creating stuff for your partner while you're separated. Maybe it's like drawing something for them or creating a list of all the picnic items you're going to bring to the next day. You know something that still in your mind. You're moving that relationship forward even though you're not physically together yet and i think it's like i get it's all across the spectrum. How someone's dealing with it like. I think two people can very much a partnership like if you have depression like there's everyone has something going on. That's the reality is like everyone has something. No one is perfect. We all have things that we're working there. So there's that side of it is that regardless of who you're with your always going to deal with something i think one of the other sides though is an. I definitely remember reading an article. When i was going through. This and there was an article that was like. Hey if someone's not managing it in your life becoming depressed like it to also see. This isn't the The right relationship for you. And i think there's a little bit of guilt that sets in from the person that's not depress. Let's feels like they're not supporting their partner. But at the end of the day like if it is something that's causing you come depressed too. That's also something to take inventory of. It's not a yes or no answer to this. I think it's a spectrum just like everything else we discussed. That's a fair point. I think that would be a concern for someone who is going through depression. Where if they are dating or in a relationship but someone's like oh no. Am i going to hand over as well. But i think it does help if someone is communicating and working through it. And that definitely should not happen but Yeah i think it's sort of Was great when you're mentioning the ho- drawing and etc. Because i feel like i've taken like the love languages to us and like gifts is nowhere near the top but i feel like during the depression it would be if it comes across if it comes across as like. Hey you know. I thought of you in this and that seems a lot better than hey i got this. Because you're said no. Yeah i think my simple things like that are sometimes acts of service like i think one of the difficult parts with going through depression is also like then realizing you have responsibilities like i. I will technically Always like a assumptions. Like oh yeah like so. That means you don't like for two weeks at a dumb thing to assume. That is not everyone but i know i'm not gonna lie. There were times where. I just didn't want to cook then. It was just like it's like i don't want to eat unhealthy because that doesn't help either so just sort of. It's like finding small things like that like. I just know that. I'm definitely not going to clean the apartment in terms of like mopping or sweeping during those two weeks. Because of that. I would have to do dishes. Because that's just gonna pile up. Make me feel worse tomorrow so Yet always just like finding healthy coping mechanisms which is always tricky because when you're in that light downward spiral you're not really thinking about getting back up. Euro is. You're gonna stop there. So it's yeah i don't know that's why like the simple thing where being able to not just talk to the. That's been the helpful part. These last two years is a haven't been using my therapist as my only outlet talk about it felt like if i did. I have really been helping. Because i can't might therapist every day. So sin those moments. Where i don't have you know my session like so. What else can i do. Who else can reach out to and that really does help. Yeah i would like to think that. I've whenever i'm in my next relationship. Yes i would like to reach out to that partner but not make it seem like i'm reaching because i want them to always fix me. It's more like i'm going through this. And i kinda need you. Well that was definitely something. Like my axe would wouldn't want to be a burden on me and like i literally like no. I want you to be talking to me like i think. That's where one of our largest disconnects was. Is that like. I wanted that in. That actually made me feel better. And i was in made him feel better ultimately. I think it was just. He didn't he didn't want to put it on me. And i think just like what you said to about. You know finding those people and as the supporting network to like. You need like some stuff you were saying earlier was really helpful to hear for people of not being like are you. Okay are you okay just listening and just letting someone be heard and i think that's what i ended up doing is i'm like i'm just gonna listen to you talk and i'm not going to provide a solution because i don't have one right. Yeah i think this is a great way to kick off takeaways. Because i think what i'm hearing from. This discussion is For so long. I wanted to be my partners therapist and then i realized my partner has his own therapy. I do not need to provide that for him. I am there for him to escape when he wants to escape. And that's what i'm good at. You know they like he comes to me for the positive vibes. He's not coming for me for me to dissect him and tell him what's wrong with him and how to cope with it and one of the greatest ways we can all do. This is by how we ask. How someone's doing and my friend natalie who julie you know as well has been great about this. She's like you know during these times. Everyone's having hard time. I hate it when people ask. How are you doing. Because nobody's listening. You just ask it right not like actually meaning how you doing. So she rephrased as a question. She'll she'll ask what something you're looking forward to this week. I love that. It's a positive spin is stops you in your tracks. Because you're like whoa. She just asked me like an actual question. You want an answer to and makes you think about what is something. You're looking forward to makes him a little bit more. Grateful for what's to come so i think it is for all of us to think about how we ask our friends and family our partners. How they're doing. We just rephrase it to something that's more meaningful and it's you know take a positive spin on it. Yeah just a comment. I guess that was kind of a takeaway. I had was piggyback off of that. Is you really do not know what anyone is going through. So i like the comment of how're you doing. Like it's kind of like interrogating if someone really isn't doing well. It's like four saying that type of conversation. So i love that and i think it is a takeaway. A reminder for everyone wants cancels when someone flakes on you last minute like you have no idea what's going on in their life especially if on zero dates with them or even if you've been on like one or two it's like even if you've been on of budgets for month you like someone might not be there to tell you about this fully yo. I think it's just like trying not to take everything so personally. And i know that's a takeaway in feedback. I lead myself. So i think it's important though for everyone to really think about the other person on the receiving side too. Is they just going through something totally different than you. Yep absolutely tony. Do you have any parting. Words of wisdom were advice for anybody going through depression or someone dating someone with depression. Okay cold so spot. Okay so for people that are going through depression. I probably would say like have someone to talk to. And if you don't have someone to talk to. I definitely always recommend reading about it because that definitely i mean. That's what helped for me. I sometimes just needing an outlet make. You can't get a verbal outlet. Get some sort of other out. That i think like my friend. He deals with his depression by drying. Some do it by you know recording content. So there's always like people have like us sometimes just finding amuse that would help you get away from that and then advice for anyone has a partner i guess the open i just sort of like i said like there's so many different factors than i think at first no one's i don't think anyone's ever going to be hundred percent honest with their depression right away they may tell you parts of it have depression like that's their first step right. The next step is probably going going to be talking talking about a little bit further. And then yeah it's just like i love using my favorite quote is a from shrek. Is that like onions. Everyone has different layers people depression. They're gonna take their sweet time going through those layers. So i sure may only know like three of them. There might be eight other ones that you know about but it's just sort of feel patients would definitely be one of them. Even though i know. It's tricky to be patient. Bud i think patients with depression goes a long way i mean. I think there's like anything. There's you know. I think people that are going to therapy. Have so much self awareness. I think that like is something that i love about. People that are taking the steps to manage mental health so like with every thing that's perceived as like a per se negative. There's always a flip side of the positive side. So i think that's important in imported to think about like the person as a whole and they're not let the depression define them as a person and then also like communication. We talked about this a bit. It's like being open being there but not being like nagging and expecting to solve all the problems big. They're not being someone's therapist is a really good takeaway whether they've depression or they don't never be someone's therapist job. I mean or ask for like two hundred dollars a year. Pay you for byles please. Well thank you so much. Tony for sharing your journey with us and just being such an inspiration and facebook group every time you comment on something. Everyone's like what did he say he always has something very insightful to say thank you for being so open to and i know you have your own podcast. Could you tell us a little work. Because i know you've talked about the staff a lot in your very open man so The my podcast is called ten years in counting So it pretty much deals with my along. I've been quote unquote single. And the reason i bring that up is because i've talked to my therapist up someone that i dated for like eight months eight or nine months and she was like. Oh that sounds like a relationships like no no no. I'm not changing the name of my podcast. You're ruining my brain now. No but i saw. Yes during that. Timeframe i i thought it was just. It would be fun to not go into like a psychological perspective of dating relationships but i just wanted to like understand like different things so a mental health was a big one that i wanted to talk about sometimes. Simple things of like. Oh is it really difficult thing friends with an and i don't know i just thought like just fun topics to have so it was just more of a creative avenue to talk about dating and relationships with people that i know And yeah and sometimes. I've definitely want to like i said. I like psychology so some episodes i always wanted to get into the. But why do you think that makes you so. I don't know i feel like that's the tank. That's how i approach. Relationships are dating. I think there's just usually approach life words. Sometimes i always want to know more of the wine instead of the. Oh okay sure that makes sense. Yeah to we're in the same boat breaking down the state mazar so important. So thank you again for coming on here because i think mental health has definitely made a strike. We had another episode a while back called mental health mental health in dating and it was a founder of like therapy company that was like a startup that was provided providing more affordable and accessible therapy of called reflect and he made a comment lake. Mental health is kind of like the age of our generation. And i think there's so much stigma side kevin conversations like this. Break it down into lets people know like how do i even like handle relationships when it comes into play and i think all the conversations we had today is a great starting point for anyone else. That's facing this weather themselves or dating partner that's going through depression and hopefully people have learned a lot and thank you again for being so open. Yeah for sure. And then i will say one other thing like i'm gonna steal something a friend of mine said but think of therapy like going to it's like going to the gym but for your mind's totally it's holy. Is that absolutely you're working out your mind. Exact i mean i think like every like a commonality between a lot of our guests and like that have kind of found their journey to love. It all comes from therapy and self love like that has been like a universal theme so i think whether you are dealing with mental health challenges are not like taking that on is the way that you will form healthy partnership in the end yup and we also recognize that. Everyone's mental health journey is completely. Yes so you're listening to this right now and you would like to share your story head on over to our website dateable podcast dot com and submit your story. We love to have you as a guest on our show. The more voices we can get to talk about mental health. The more will learn about how we can cope manage and deal with it all so more stories the merrier and while you're at it leave us a five star review young line. Checking websites is so easy. Going to apple podcasts. Click that five stars right something nice about us or not whatever up to you but we appreciate it if you write something nice because of these. Great reviews is how we can open up the floor to awesome. Guess like tony here. Who can open up and the hawk about his journey and his experience. I can't believe. I said journey like seven times. We should have like a drinking game. Every time churning journey with a different word lie so cliche shaky gigi or something like the you go to the source instantly adventure esque. I feel like dirty mahat word right now. It really is. Now we're gonna we're gonna into something else call escapade escapade anyway. We're going to wrap this up things again. Tony for being such an awesome guest stay dateable. Podcast is part of the frolic podcast network. Five more podcasts. You'll love at frolic dot media slash podcast. The conversation i follow us on instagram facebook and twitter with the handle at dateable podcasts. Tag as an any post to the hashtag. Stay dateable and trust us. Look at all those pose then head over to our website gatabo podcasts dot com there. You'll find all the episodes as well as articles videos and our coaching service with vetted industry. Experts can also find our premium. Why series where we dissect analyze offer solutions to some of the most common dating conundrums russell downloadable for free on spotify apple podcasts. Google play overcast stitcher radio and other podcasts platforms. Your feedback is valuable to us. So don't forget to leave us a review and moulton.

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Existential Despair and Bipolar Depression

The Carlat Psychiatry Podcast

20:30 min | 6 months ago

Existential Despair and Bipolar Depression

"What happens to a dream deferred? Does it dry up like raising them of some Are Fester like a sore and then run. Does it stink like rotten meat are crossed and sugar over like syrupy sweet. Maybe just say like a heavy load. Are. Welcome to the car let Psychiatry podcast keeping psychiatry. Honest. Since two thousand and three I'm Chris Sekine the editor in chief of the Carlisle Psychiatry Port and I'm Kelly Newsom Psychiatric N. P. in a dedicated reader if every issue. For many patients, bipolar disorder is a story of loss loss of marriages, jobs, friendships, physical health, and meaningful roles in society. The kind of dreams deferred that the poet Langston Hughes wrote in his nineteen fifty one poem from the start of this podcast. It's not unusual for these patients to complain of depression these losses stack up but listen carefully when they do. It's not always clinical depression they're speaking off. There are many kinds of depression and bipolar disorder. There's full clinical episodes, the ones that last two weeks and have the full breadth of DSM five symptoms. Then there's temperamental depression what we call DECI MIA this is the kind of low grade but always eating at you type of depression that patients will tell you they've had all their life. Then there's a state that Gary Sacks at mass general calls roughing, which is when the patient is clearly under stress possibly getting worse not fully depressed, but at risk for that. There's premenstrual dysphoric, and this is a tricky one because when it in bipolar disorder, it doesn't warrant a separate diagnosis of premenstrual dysphoric disorder and certainly doesn't warrant jumping into antidepressants that can make bipolar worse. Instead you might raise the mood stabilisers to treat mood worsening before the menstrual cycle, and by the way mood worsening before the menstrual cycle is somewhat more common in bipolar than in unit polar depression. There's also postpartum depression winter depression and atypical depression where you have leaden paralysis heavy feelings in the arms and legs tiredness on sleeping assault day and high appetite. And all of those three depressive subtypes, post-partum Winter and atypical features. Those are also more common in bipolar than in uniform disorders. and. There's depression caused by substance use or medical problems. Chronic medical problems as well as substance use are so common in bipolar disorder that I would see these more as contributing to the depression than causing it. One type of medical depression that we've recently gained more knowledge on is inflammatory depression. We cover that in January issue and we see in patients with obesity and chronic medical problems will often see that in bipolar disorder particularly the patient gets older. Then, there's the manic depression which we see in bipolar disorder. These include mixed states and dysphoric mania where there's a lot of depressive symptoms on top of the mania. But even when mania is not a mixed state, depression is still the most common complaint during mania. That's right. Mania usually doesn't feel good or if it does get the feeling that rarely lasts longer than a few days. Instead. Mania is a state of heightened emotions and they are all heightened anxiety depression irritability and the occasional good feeling. There's also post manic depression that's the depression that comes on right after the mania, and it's often with prominent guilt and low energy as if it's the ashes of that manic state, this is where you'd want to avoid antidepressants because they can easily flip the patient back into mania. In, our September issue we brought you unpublished research on a new medication for depression. It's a finding you can using your practice today and it can work in most of the depressions I've just listed. But in this supplement to that article, we're going to talk about a different kind of depression. You'll see in bipolar disorder one where medications may help, but they're usually not the best answer. It's something Nassar Gammy calls existential despair. This is the kind of low great constant depression that builds as life's losses stack up. Now those losses divorce isolation unemployment, they can cause true clinical depression as well but they also cause a very real anguish that doesn't fit the DSM description of clinical depression. This despair is a very human response to the painful losses that come with bipolar disorder rather than seeing it as a medical problem. This existential despair is probably best seen as a problem of self hood. In The New York Times magazine and Twenty Thirteen Linda Logan called on psychiatry to pay more attention to the self when treating bipolar disorder or any chronic psychiatric disorder. She spoke from her own experience living with bipolar for several decades, and she suggests that we ask patients about what parts of the self have vanished during their illness and help them come up with strategies to deal with that loss. Her story quickly went viral as it touched many patients she detailed the loss of meaningful roles and our own life of several decades. Motherhood she felt disconnected from her children and had to pretend to be like other mothers in the school yard. Teaching career. She wrote how many employers with welcomed the request for caught a soft pillow and half the day off. And eventually divorce I was slowly fading away. The literature on bipolar disorder is crowded with symptom tallies, genetic assays, behavioral strategies, and brain images. These are all important, but there's a need to touch on the human side of this work as well. Doctrine Nassar Gami has written about that throughout his career and I, asked him to read for us today experts from two thousand, five paper that I particularly like called existential despair and bipolar disorder. The therapeutic alliance is a mood stabiliser. It's a rare gem and something he co authored with the late psychoanalyst leston havens. Elvin some radd the greatest existential teacher of clinicians in the Boston area for many generations argued that if patients have one relationship in which they feel comfortable, they don't go crazy we think the same may hold for patients with mania. Our colleague Ronald. Pies has suggested that the therapeutic alliance may be a mood stabiliser much as medications are the manic patient is no different from the depressed patient or any other patient in many ways one of which is that these patients are first and foremost persons. Each has a life loves failures hopes fears and something we might call a self. The self of each person may be more or less there. It may be riding on their sleeves easily touched on easily injured in which case the very gentle and approaching it in may be hidden deep inside under layers of protection. So absent that even the person rarely sees it. In that case, we have to go in search of it. In other words in therapy, we often needed to enter aspects of a person's self that are painful or partly unknown. We need to support the EGO at the same time as before said to examine feelings that may cause it to feel temporarily weaker. Each person has a self and we have to meet each other ourselves as clinicians have to meet our patients cells and we meet not as clinician and patient, but as self and self. When we first meet in a clinical setting, it is usually because of a problem. The patient seeks help or is brought to US predicament after recognizing the predicament both the patient and the clinician or immediately faced with the future in two ways of approaching it hope or hopelessness. The patient may despair as made the clinician, but we have to stand for the possibility of future without imposing that future on re patients as a false hope. The process of bringing about a hopeful future begins by recognizing the strengths of the patient. Yes, the patients behavior is consistent with a manic episode. Yes. The patient has made many mistakes, but there are some parts of that person which are quite healthy. They always are there. So we searched for the patient's health are they manic but not psychotic? Are they manic but not depressed or anxious? Everyone has some virtues even those with many vices have some virtues. Sometimes, the problem with patients is that they have too much for shoe generosity can lead to bankruptcy too much courage to recklessness too much truth telling to gullibility. A strength of humor in particular is an important strength of manic patients we need to unite with them around what they find humorous. After we meet Manic persons we seek a way to move ahead from predicament by speaking with them about their strengths and not just their illness. Point that direction too hopeful future by exploring reasons for hope in the present in the past. And then we work on two fronts, one for treating illness and one for encouraging their strikes. The patient comes to treatment with assumptions about the doctor and the doctor with assumptions about the patients. These assumptions sometimes doomed the treatment before it begins. The most noxious assumption is that doctors can fulfill the feeling of patients that we represent the system, the status quo of power and privilege. We labeled a patient of sick and resistance to treatment is often reflection of the patients justifiable if sometimes exaggerated hesitation to enter this process. Harry Stack Sullivan Todd is sometimes it's better to avoid conflict with patients even if they want it. If patients expect us to confront them, we should agree with them instead in. So doing we disabuse them of assumptions that they hold about us and remove such distortions from the interpersonal field in the interest of relationship building. For instance, we would argue that when a manic patient makes grandiose statement, it is best to agree with at least initially joining with elation and not just depression is an essential part forming a human connection with the manic patient. The world is full of people who think they the Messiah. But then again didn't Jesus Christ think he was the Messiah? A person's aspirations should not be discouraged pathologist. This usually produces the opposite reaction. The manic person realizes that he cannot connect with the clinician and treatment ends. -lationist seen not only in manic pathology we should be able to find aspects of our own experience that allow us to empathize with. Take New Year's Eve celebrations for instance, in some ways what a foolish ideas such celebrations are, why would the events of the next year be any better than those of every year passed and yet we celebrate the New Year with renewed hope and renewed ambitions. Encouraging grandiose grandiosity diminishes. The best reaction to a grandiose comment is to say how wonderful I wish I could feel more that way myself. The failure of clinicians to appreciate grandiosity is concerning to US clinicians are not afraid to engage depression empathic. We know that an empathic approach depression reduces the depressive burden but why are we afraid to empathize with grandiosity or with paranoia for that matter we in the mental health field or frequently naive about how the world works. There are in fact, plenty of destructive forces out there and persons in positions of power often experience a quite realistic sense of paranoia in relation to the efforts of their enemies. It took the technology of audio taping to reveal the extent of such paranoia in the Nixon years, but it's very likely that such paranoia is always present. There are situations when one cannot be paranoid enough. This concept of man exciting goes against the grain of much teaching and psychotherapy where we're usually taught to avoid splitting not to side with the patient against the world or the world against the patient. Yet mania is a unique state, the parts of the brain that learn and process information or literally shut down during mania while psychotherapy is a learning process. So usual techniques aren't gonNA work well here. In the detailed rating scales are used for research on bipolar, we see symptoms of mania like the urge to do something shocking or to argue for the sake of arguing. Mania in other words is prime to get your goat and primed for a fight. Confronting, the patient in this state can easily spiral downwards. So often it's better just to agree and side with them but how do you agree without being totally dishonest? The answer is to speak in broad generalities. The kind of talk that you see on bumper stickers for example, suppose you work in a large medical office in a manic patient comes in complaining that your receptionist is Nazi you don't WanNa throw receptionist under the bus in those situations, but you don't want to defend your receptionist there either and rhys spiraling down into a destructive argument. So you could say something general like you know the world could use a lot more kindness. I'll tell you a story of when I failed at man exciting I was in residency at Duke and an agitated woman came in for her first visit at the clinic. Honor Shirt was an image of Jesus Christ hanging from the Cross with the words dying to know you below. Before. I could ask with broader in she shouted I there's something I need to know about you are you a Christian psychiatrist. Out I had been raised a Christian and identified as such but I didn't feel comfortable misleading her into thinking that I agreed with all her beliefs or that I was going to pray during session. So I got kind of perplexed and I hedged I said I am a Christian. But that doesn't change high work with you. My work as your doctor is guided by medical science just as any other doctor does. That's all I need to know. She said and stormed out of the room. She did come back about five years later she looked me up and return to my practice but because I had failed to side with her in that critical moment, she lost five years of treatment. What would you have said? If I could go back, I would have looked her in the eye with great solemnity and said I can tell that question is very important to you and I want you to know it's very important to me to. Yes I am a Christian. Well, that was before you read dot began his article. Tell us about a time when men exciting work. Well we can side with patients about their point of view and their beliefs but when it comes to our own prescriptions, siding can be more uncomfortable. So here's a story about a patient I worked with WHO is basically and an untreated manic state for several years. The only medication he would take was valium. He had little insight into the mania. So even when we found a tolerable mood stabilizer that worked, he wouldn't stick with it and would go right back into the mania. Now, it was tempting to stop the valium as it's not appropriate to use on its own in bipolar and though he didn't abuse it, it was probably rewarding in some ways and it might have been enabling his avoidance of mood stabilisers, but I chose to side with him from his point of view. Valium did what he needed. It helped the anxious face of the at least it didn't help as functioning at all retreat the main in any meaningful way. But it also kept him engage with treatment and what's most important here is that in siding with his view, he did come to trust me and eventually was brought into the clinic emergency family is in a manic. State doing dangerous things totally out of control and wouldn't listen to thing family said. But when he sat down with me, there was like this innate trust because we had worked together so long and he said. I'm in a terrible state just tell me what I need to do. And I told him to get back on the mood stabiliser which he did and he recovered. So it was a very slow build. But by siding with him in the beginning, it allowed them to stick with treatment that he might otherwise have rejected a couple years later. It is not enough to psychoanalyze or to diagnose and prescribe what has been put aside is the relationship the relationship comes first without. Diagnostic and treatment efforts are at the very least impaired and at worst simply wrong. Talking with a manic patient is not easy, but it is also not hopeless. Manic patients are hopeful ever hopeful indeed often too hopeful put their hopes and dreams however big are usually brief and soon damaged by the realities of life as they become depressed and denied of their hopes by others. The job of the clinician is twofold I to x existential. He be with manic patients and then to give perspective to these patients about their manic worldview without completely denying it, this approach can lead to a healthy therapeutic alliance, which itself has a mood stabilizing effect along with mood stabilizing medications. This alliance can lead patients toward full recovery. Put more simply conditions need to talk to manic patients about their hopes to explore the limits of their grandiosity without judging it to seek out their strengths and to validate then. They also need to go where the patients are to encounter patients and find the person beneath the illness. To provide a strong relationship. To conflict with the patient sometimes, but not at other times. It is a tall order and one not infrequently avoided. Yet The Times seemed to call for a return to actually talking with manic patients and may be carrying them with such talk. Or perhaps that his grandiose. Nursia Garbey is a professor of psychiatry and psychopharmacology at Tufts. University School of Medicine He's the author of over half a dozen psychiatric textbooks to focus on today subject are first rate madness and on depression. And this Wednesday sixty second cycle returning, and you can expect regular installments, every Wednesday and Saturday. You can find our full coverage of the new treatment for bipolar depression online at the Carlisle report dot Com in our September issue where we have a special discount for podcast listeners, you can get thirty dollars off your first year subscription with the promo code podcast in all caps. Highlight report is one of the few seamy publications that depends entirely on subscribers. Thank you for helping us stay free of commercial support.

depression bipolar disorder manic episode bipolar US Langston Hughes Gary Sacks Carlisle Psychiatry Port premenstrual mood stabilizer Chris Sekine obesity editor in chief assault Nassar Gammy Kelly Newsom Nassar Gami Duke leston havens Boston
Squatchmen

A Scary Home Companion

30:29 min | 9 months ago

Squatchmen

"You may not know this. But Michigan! Is Big Foot Country It's one of the top five states in terms of officially registered bigfoot sightings over the years. The fine people of the Wolverine State have logged in no fewer than eleven hundred of them. Before! You can say it before you can think. A bigfoot story. Scary home companions done that before. Let me. Say that no most assuredly. We have not. The Florida episode story about the Skunk Ape in it and the Chippewa Falls episode had a story about the wind, Ego. Those are both very very different creatures from the bigfoot. It's all sort of beside the point anyway because. This isn't a story about bigfoot. This is a story about three friends that wanted to make a documentary about searching for bigfoot. Just like Godot, the arrival of the titular monster was never intended to happen. This story was about the journey, not the test the nation. That is what Barrett Reynolds believed. was an idea Barrett had been cultivating for years now and he had. A partial script. He had ample notes. He had a blueprint. He had an overarching movie concept that he felt would play well in middle America and more importantly make money. All right here it is. Three friends go searching through the Michigan Woods for something mythic. But in the process, they discover the mythic power. Of French. Bullshit maybe. Gold money in the bank. He could go direct. DVD Or if the emotional beats managed to land. It could even qualify for the indy film circuit. Barrett had the ideas. He had the motivation he had the focus. But. He was waiting on. was time and a place to execute all of this. There needed to be a certain. Authenticity to these proceedings and. Immediacy to the action and that was something. He knew he couldn't force. He couldn't fake. He couldn't just shoot footage in his backyard and then add everything else post. There had to be something. Real something. Inside about. In late, two, thousand thirteen Barrett. Got His chance. You read about a rash of bigfoot sightings. Four of them in short succession in one concentrated area just a few days before. And it wasn't too far from his home in Glen Arbor. Historically the majority of Michigan. bigfoot sightings happened on the upper peninsula was very far away from Barrett, but these four had all occurred just a few miles north of Grace Valley. That was just two hour drive. As of late Barrett had been. Contemplating either walking away from his job. Or dousing his boss and kerosene, and setting him on fire, and he'd been contemplating it. A lot so when he read about these sightings. Took that. As a sign, the stars had aligned. This was his shot. It was up to him. Execute the plan to lock it down to go out into the woods and shoot something that could either be documentary or a found footage horror comedy about the search for bigfoot. In the past some time ago, his two closest friends had agreed to the project and theory now he needed to wrangle them. And he was sure that he could he was. If this was going to work out. Unfortunately for Barrett and. ALL PARTIES INVOLVED! It woodwork out. The bigfoot sightings in this case were not. ENTIRELY FALSE And Barrett's search. Would yield. Tragic results. Were Drinking whiskey in the kitchen. Telling scary stories around the fire. Music Monsters Mayhem Keller's cannibals and colts. Fearful fiction and furious fact, toll tails and terrible truths. This. Is a scary home companion. The. Three man team that comprised the entire cast and crew for the bigfoot project. Left Glen Arbor in the morning. They'd found a nice place to park, so they could hike by noon and they were on their way. All three of them. Weren't just ready for this. They were stoked about the whole project. Barrett was. If nothing else. A very efficient in calculating person. He'd been planning this whole affair for some time, and it made sure to pack, not just needed provisions and supplies, but he brought along the two men who would best allow his vision to work. Logistically speaking, these were the two best people that he knew to actually get a movie made. because. It's very easy to say. Oh I've got a great idea for a movie I should make a movie. Lot of people say that. But the actual nuts and bolts the logistics of making a film. is a very different in head-spinning story. Bear it was a big picture guy. He knew what needed to happen. In what order it had to happen, but He knew that he couldn't do it by himself. Which is why he enlisted the aid of his two most talented and versatile friends. The griff, who was a quiet? Dependable stolid young man. Not Solid but Staal at you know the difference. Although he was probably solid as well. In the seven years if they had known each other, griff had helped Berit move three different times. Without complaint. Griff was smart. Smarty was well rounded, technically proficient, several ways, also a security guard, so he had one of those sweet utility belts with pepper spray telescoping baton one of those. Black Muscle flashlights. You could beat somebody to death with. As a former Eagle Scout, he could also handle most of the outside type stuff. Griff was not only you till the -Tarian. He also served as ballast for stabilizing the last member of the team. Big, Randall. Randall was the ace of this movie project, but by that I mean that he could be an eleven. or it could be a one. It was all matter of playing in the right way. If Bipolar Manic depression was an anime character that was made half out of pork chop sideburns. It would be randall. Although Randall was very much a character. He also kind of genius. Came to shooting recording editing, manipulating or basically anything involving film, digital media or computers Randall tended to be the smartest guy in the room. And? It didn't matter what room. It was bare its job as he sought to provide vision the focus in the motivation to see this through. At Barrett's instruction, they left the camera running the entire time it was held at various times by all three of them, and quite often left just sitting on the tripod or on the ground. Due to the damage to the machine when it was recovered. The video is all very patchy glitch. Easy sporadic. What little visible footage! There is I'm sure you could find on Youtube, but there's not much. The audio on the other hand was mostly fine. The following snippets in the remainder of this episode were all taken from those audio recordings. So we really need a product just has to be something that looks like product I'm thinking more like fake movie trailer. It's just gotTa be good enough to get something going. So I was just shoot everything, and if I start to make a big deal out of something, just play along. Don't give me rational explanation or any of that shit got it. Got It makes sense. Don't work where. What we find something real. We want. If we do I wear this. What is that? Salute your door mask. Awesome Bright. What's my name King big? L. He'll. Wait. The squash my. Yeah, that's it. She's fucking Christ. You can work at Kenner student thing on. It's like a second skin for him. He can do just about anything within on everything except where mask. Probably work at camera. Fuck this up. They kept the camera rolling for the entire four hour hike to the First Nights, campsite. This was close to the area where all four of the bigfoot sightings had transpired. The plan was that the next morning. There were going to go scout around. Follow the map checkout all the individual places where the big dude had been seen and look for witnesses. griff built Campfire Barrett setup the tent. Randall, just aimlessly stomped around the woods, getting B roll footage. When the sun had set, the three friends sat around the fire. Two of them sipping beer while Grif? WHO DIDN'T DRINK? A bottle of water. Chris. Drake. Leader or anything? No Dude I'm good. Are you allergic to alcohol or something? You're missing did. Not, missing man this is. Bach commits with gin judgments everything I need. I smell that not vodka from here. FUCKING WATER Ended it over here. I want to smell it. The first part of any found footage horror movie. Is the characters in their natural state relaxed gearing up for an adventure, a lot of interplay and banter. This is getting to know you part of the picture, which is just how it played out here. By design part of Barrett's very Meta plan. Beauty of his plan. Was it simplicity? They could rely on their natural chemistry and Camaraderie that should carry them along way while they were out there whatever footage they got whatever they found they could use. Whatever they didn't find, they could probably fake later. Add things in special effects audio. In the meantime they got to have a great time together in the woods. The better time they had now the better would make to finish project. They had every incentive to relax. Have a few drinks and enjoy themselves. Not to mention as grownups getting a couple of days, just stop through the Woods Hammering Beers and making a movie. This is not the sort of opportunity. That you take for granted. This is stuff fun shit. And that's what it was on day one, but. All, GonNa side. They did have a movie to shoot so on Day. Two. They got down to brass tacks. Barrett had his map GPS a schedule for them to try and follow. They were go around to all the different places where bigfoot had been spotted to get footage from each location and see if there was anybody they could talk to who had actually seen big foot. Four different places all within a one mile radius. They were going to be hoop summit. All Day. The Barrett knew. It was going to be worth it. There first stop was a trailer park just north of Grace Valley this was on a really small piece of land, not very many RV hookups. But after the forest fires in the valley some months before it had been at capacity ever since. Two of the four bigfoot sightings had been here over two consecutive nights the previous week. The boys after discussing it decided. It would be easy as just be direct, so they went right up to the trailers of the people involved, and they asked if they wanted to be a movie about bigfoot. Both of the complaints were more than happy to tell their small story on camera. Although neither one amounted to anything more than a quick cut away. One of them said there's shed had been broken into with some supplies stolen. The other said the bigfoot had tried to take her dog. Although when burr questioned her about it, she corrected her official statement and admitted that the big foot was probably just playing with the dog. None, of this was dramatic enough for spooky enough. But it did play well with the possible comedic tone that the film could take during editing. You may not know this movies are made in editing, not shooting. You can take the exact. Same footage edited different at different music, and you have a completely different movie. And in that context Barrett thought that both of these interviews would play better. Maybe with a little, he haw style. Banjo music in the background. After walking three quarters of a mile. Through hilly terrain. They ended up behind the sprawling manner of retired car dealer. The old woman had called him easily the most interesting of the four reports. She said that bigfoot opened her sliding glass door, commandeur kitchen and tried talk to her. She even claimed that she gave him tea and cookies. Alas. The interview with that Old Lady was not to happen. Apparently, there had already been a lot of local interest. The story and her family was well tired of it already. When Barrett Randall and griff approached they saw the old woman and her granddaughter on the screened in Back Porch. Yeah we're just asking about bigfoot. Your colonel was actually the one who called in the report. You barely. Sweet Mr Listen. Hopes. Last place they visited was locked up tight in darkened. The man who called in his report had abandoned it apparently. Still they were there. They got some footage of where the event was alleged to have happened. They found a few markings. That might have been clause on the would. A few prints that might have been bigfoot tracks. But then. At the end of it another campfire. This time there was no beer. They drank it all. So. It'll and Barrett leaned on weed and a couple flasks of Jin. griff eight some trail mix. Very. Tell You my theory. The big for is just as huge she really do. The can't afford shoes. But, it's free movie material. What about a dude can't afford shoes. WHO's a big Cannibal Hillbilly? That's better. But I mean we sold today. Bats up has to mean something, right? Yes it does doesn't mean Bayford. I don't know it definitely needs something, but either way, so the stuff is happening. We're here to film it. Should we camera according to? Not. I want to grind on Griff Space Believes Asleep Saxon Times. Trying to get bent, that might be what you're after. He stopped dooming that. Randall. Stop Recording yourself after we go to sleep, okay. Sucking up the editing process, but that was recording. The next morning they packed up camp. Smoked the remainder of the weed. And the trail that Barrett had marked on his map. Those four sightings laid out. Definitely made a line. Crooked line. Bud Line and one. It seemed to be pointing towards the Grace Valley so. Was No real agenda Barrett decided to just follow that line and see where it took them. They skirted some scorched woods. Then veered east. Walked for over a mile before they ended up coming across a series of abandoned cabins along the crest of a hill that overlooked the grace valley itself. The view. Was all inspire. Hundreds of acres. Have burned. Twisted blackened trunks, still reaching skyward like skeletal hands from the Earth. Griff was the I look around and see it and he pointed to the others. There were about six cabins spread out over the top of this hill, one of them to cabins down. Was swaddled with bright yellow police tape. The trio approached the cabin cautiously. They were all very excited, particularly Barrett, because the visual of this cabin wrapped and police tape alone. It was skin crawl. It was terrifying Barrett knew that once he said it to some ambient music. Might even make a good teaser trailer. They filmed the place from every angle making sure to get close ups of the yellow tape flapping in the breeze. Before they finally rounded the back of the cabin and saw that the door was standing open. Griff took out his captain. Caveman Club like flashlight. Slipped into the cabin quietly. This had obviously been a crime scene. There was broken glass on the floor and dark, Brown crusty smudges on the walls that. Could have only been dried blood. But it was blood long since dried and Griff told his comrades crime scene was. Probably a few weeks old, maybe even longer. So. They went inside. Had to get more footage Barrett. Randall got close ups of all the dirty grimy details. then. Griff appeared at the end of the hallway, coming out of the master bedroom. His face was Ashen. He gestured to them. Guys. You need to come see this. The back room. was, not as abandoned as the rest of the cabin. and. It was very obvious that someone or Some thing. had taken up residence in the master bedroom. The smell. What's horrific. Even as they approached the door. Barrett saw the mattress had been pulled from the bed, thrown in the corner in the center of it shredded like an animal using it as a makeshift nest. It'd been stuffed with mud and branches pine needles. Decorated little spots of blood. The rest of the room was strewn with empty juice boxes food wrappers. And then they saw the pictures. Drawn, on the walls. Lady the trailer perks said to cases. Juice boxes got taken. Ammon Shahak. dudes look at Bat Okay Holy Shit. Get concepts of all of these Randall I. Think I think we gotta do it faster than the ear. Seconded. Bees. It's like bigfoot portrait's and what the fuck is this? A little girl. I'm going to wait outside. Hurry up. I'm getting a bad feeling. was that. Gives you that. Something big. was in the front room. They all three felt perfectly still but this. Massive beast. Just come back. Home did not stay still. It stomped down the short hallway on heavy feet. and knocked the bedroom door off the hinges. Burst into the rue. This was not in it. Wasn't a big foot never had been. It was a man. Just a man. Albeit A. Bigger and more broad shouldered man than most people have ever seen in their lives. He didn't have for. You wore an old dirty mechanic's jumpsuit that had been badly torn. Cut and bullet riddled. Soaked with the blood of himself and. Many many others. He didn't have a monstrous face. But wore a cheap rubber monster mask. That was just as damaged and bullet torn as his clothes. His name was Ben Boroughs. And he was holding a very large. Dull Machete. The massive man. Profoundly deformed. Lonely and full of rage. Set upon the three interlopers. Ripped them to frets. Bisecting trice acting until the machete blade broke, and then he finished Mauling, and dissembling them with his bare hands, until there was nothing but blood and pieces. Bam gingerly picked up Randall severed head. In peeled away the luce door mask being so so careful not to rip it. Ben had been wanting a new mask for quite some time now ever since he woke up. Having never seen professional wrestling before Ben had. Never laid eyes on a mask this glorious. He rushed into the bathroom to admire how it looked on him. It contoured sleekly to his face, and there weren't is holes, but he could still see through it. He felt. Like a new person! And he started humming a happy tune. It was a song that he and emily had learned from Gordo the clown. They had all used to sing it back when they were in cages together. And that made Ben Thank. Maybe, it was time to go fine Napoli. Man. Thanks for listening to another episode of a scary home companion. Contact us through twitter, facebook, or instagram or email the show directly at scary home companion at g mail DOT COM. Subscribe to the show. Wherever it is that you listen to podcasts, we are on every major platform and please leave a review for the show, no matter where they help. They really help out a lot. Another way to help out the show is by checking out the patriotic page. Could find exclusives extras behind the scene. Stuff bonus stories. Post mortem analysis videos for every new episode. Why right this very minute. You can go over there and listen to a breakdown of the episodes. Squash men that you've just finished. All the hidden connections to previous stories there are several. And the logistics of recording a group project like this in the midst of quarantine. Patrons of the show include Monica Andy Eric Amy Catherine. Carol Joseph Matthew Buck and Kevin. Join them. The episode was produced an edited by Jeff Davidson. With an assist from Dan Lily. It featured guest performances by Griffin. Peter's Barrett Daniel. Dan Lily. And Savannah Hensley. With music by the Thud experiment. And Crack Atto. Chelsea Oxen provided the theme music and Dan Lilly provided the Gordo the clown song. Yeah Big Dan's dirty. Little fingerprints are all over this episode. It on that note. Let's listen to Gordo again.

Campfire Barrett Barrett Randall griff Barrett Reynolds Grace Valley bigfoot bigfoot Michigan Ben Boroughs Michigan Woods Glen Arbor America Chippewa Falls Youtube Jeff Davidson Barrett Daniel First Nights Dan Lily Staal
Cory Minor-Smith (Ep. 47, 2019)

In Black America

29:42 min | 1 year ago

Cory Minor-Smith (Ep. 47, 2019)

"NPR on your iphone or Android smartphone plus news alerts and your favorite K. ut podcast download the all new K. UT APP from the apple or Streaming K. U. T. is always great but you can make the experience even better with our brand new mobile APP you get one click access to news from K.. Ut Texas standard had problems neither she nor mother understood at thirteen mother was diagnosed with manic depression schizophrenia when she was fifteen a mother point as a child growing up she lived in eight different households she had to unstable parents one diagnosed with manic depression schizophrenia pro football hall of fame and Shannon Shot and he's induction one can only imagine how Minor Smith Life would've turned out I'm John Johansen Junior and I was in college because I I was basically trying to find out how other families dealt with having a loved one with mental illness because I did not know what to do it was years later with my family and I you know kind of join forces to be advocates and to be a there for my mom cordminder Smith Mother one at the age of fifteen having to have the court decide my life in that was in regards to where I was going to live and at that point that that morning I woke up hard for me to understand or comprehend or even just relate to what she was saying and that is why I thought out movies like out of darkness that came out when individuals that were in the suit I e the attorney and I knew then that I wanted to be a lawyer Corey Minor Smith Attorney former Canton Ohio City Council the University of Texas at Austin K. U. T. radio this is in black America or they're actually three distinct events that I recall for a summer job program and then I was able to work directly with the people in the black robes I e the judges as well as work with the America all that I could describe it as as weird right I didn't know what was going on I just heard my mom talking about you know small camps and yet the other address she attended fourteen schools two preschools eight elementary schools three middle junior high schools and two according devices in the cars and when we went to church you know the pastors or guest pastors we're talking about things that she did in her apartment and so it was very high school all between three different states and she was sexually abused at the hands of a stepmother's father had not been for space given called to the courtroom my whole life was decided without even being in there so I didn't learn that day but then in high school I was assigned to the local meetings -Nificant Court I've also lived in Houston Texas and South Vallejo California and currently I am back in Canton Ohio does about the large member transformational speaker author of has tasked Dribble Onc- Smith today a WanNa she has achieved what she had to this some might think of depression as the blues or something to snap out of that's why it's important to seek professional help when you suspect something is wrong has a child minor Smith did know what to do and it was not until she became an adult that she really was able to help him other. I was born in Canton Ohio African Americans at trouble recognizing and symptoms of a mental health problem living to underestimate the effects and impact of mental illness food than three different states of which my life has been lived we're GONNA get into some of the book before we start speaking come to another edition In Black America on this week program going out with mental illness in the family with Corey Minors Smith and wanting so badly to go into the courtroom insane person in a black robe fan the people in the suits and understanding what their jobs were unfortunately we were never locales well it's eight different households than what I learned that was important as just understanding the rules of wherever you are and being able to adapt to whatever environment that you're in I say that because I'm not only live with my parents and grandmothers so you're passionate mental health what lessons thus far or lessons you learn lived in two different household and two different take from are understand the rules and obligations and your responsibility in whatever aspect of your life whether it's the classroom your work office fourteen that I remember and as far as high schools with a total of two but that's among the three states so it was a total of fourteen schools eight household the high schools that that you attended wow it's really a Dominican schools that I attended was a over fourteen the boardroom you have to understand the dynamics of that particular place and be able to adapt having such young parents did you understand what was going on is being in a hole in the wall you know it could be like a whole from a nail but she believed that someone put a camera or recording device in that there were record I do I do truly thank God for those who took me in when they did not have to do so so that's the main lesson being adaptable being able to relate to where you are attacked her with a pair of scissors to make matters worse both for parents experienced demon so severe that led them down the path to drugs many no I do recall in preschool that a lot of my classmates were amazed that my parents were so much younger than their parents and it's just because my classmates talked about it in the book you talk about becoming thinking about becoming a lawyer is there were people who took me in that did not have to they were under no type of court order or direction of job and family services they did not receive any type of assistance for me AH also cousins and people who are not related to the at all and it was not through the foster care system but I call it community care because I love that story or there's actually three distinct events that I recall one at the age of fifteen having to have the court decide my life oh that's where it kind of opened my eyes to it you know at such a young age in preschool I don't even know why we're talking about our parents ages but I knew then that I you know had young and that was in regards to where I was going to live and at that point that morning I woke up wanting so badly to go into the courtroom and seeing that person in the black rose and I knew then that I wanted to be lawyer so that's the second incident or event the third is an encounter with law enforcement I remember being pulled over and I felt so degraded in the way that one of the officers talk to me and I felt like at that very moment go to work directly with the people in the black robes I e the judges as well as work with those individuals that were in the suits I e they attorneys so I didn't learn that day but then in high school I was assigned to the local men municipal court for a summer job program and then I was eight I wanted to know what my rights were and I wanted to go to law school learn what rights are in a comeback until everybody with their rights are the people in the suits and understanding and knowing what their jobs where unfortunately we were never called into the courtroom or life was decided without even being in there in case they're ever confronted in the way that I was confronted how did you happen to bowling green for Undergrad Bowling Green State University quite honestly because it was just sadly that's where a lot of the negative behavior at I engaged in took place how television influence what you thought we had a wife and she had her child and I could see a family that I wanted so I knew at nine when I went to live with my dad the first time or another way but just close enough to home helped me to develop you know my independence in my life and I really really enjoyed my time bowling green of society and I just embraced it and try to follow it and you know until I met the real world I e in Vallejo California there was a whole I'm a lot you know by myself so I just prefer the family atmosphere and chose to live in California whenever I could but relocated to Houston in search of better job opportunities she had some friends that had moved down there and they had encouraged her to come along as well the state university tell us about been torn between two parents you say with your dad and also you say what your mom but I think Dan Xiaomi life should be like well again looking at that nuclear family a lot of what we see on television and for me it was leave it to beaver and get it that I wanted a family like that versus when I was with my mother she was a single mother working two jobs with hardly home I was a Latchkey kid and was the fun guy well I wouldn't necessarily say he one guy in more so because it provided the image of a nuclear family in the goals that are discussing the book is preparation and I remember the first time I met less Brown who ultimately wrote the forward to the book he made a statement after reading I went through the court system that I was going to write a book so it started in me then and as I continue to grow develop learn and although get it within a single family parents household it just showed me like I don't know moral standards rules I outlined in my book but I think it's important particularly in the black community because we don't like to talk about it there's a lot of negative stigma areas different things I just continue to write things down but unfortunately I didn't do it to the point of making a book and I say that because one of the this book has says driven has had driven took several years at least ten I knew at the age of sixteen I e once can help you with reaching your goals one of your major passions is mental health wise that so endearing to you it's endearing to me because when she decided to move to Houston I that was the first time I went to live with my father if you're just joining us Johnny Hansen Junior and you're listening to N. Blackman I am a child that has a parent my mother who is living with a severe mental illness and attributed to a lot of the experiences that I had associated with mental illness there is a resistance to therapy or you know psychiatric treatment but it's important it's the so I say that ultimately to say once you set a goal you have to take action to reach that goal and especially if you're asking other people to come along in addition to the church and prayer and to help minimize the stigma that's associated with having mental illness or having a loved one that's living with mental an article about me in our paper our local newspaper and he said that I had a story for the world to hear and that's the statement on the back of the book so one day long after he for what you're asking people to help you with right if I wanted him to help me he was willing to do way more than I asked but I wasn't even prepared to receive it you know it doesn't minimize or negate our Christianity because we rely on outside sources outside of the Church or prayer I strongly encourage people to do it who I was so grateful but at the same time I didn't have a book he wanted me to send the first three chapters and I had nothing written and so it taught me that you have to be prepared they are resources here in the community to help us and those who are into the church and I believe that the church should be a resource as well he had made that statement several years afterwards I contacted him to see if I could use it on my marketing material and he said I'll do better than that I'll write the forward to your book if you want me celebrities that have openly expressed their problems with mental illness yes yes I think that helps so different dynamic that I was involved in on a day to day basis harder to get to use to how did you end up in Houston for a while when my mother various mental illness was Frankie and Alice with Halle Berry these are real situation and we know that there there I advocate for us to talk in our society for some reason you know we we really look up to celebrities we put them on some type of a pedestal and once they announced that there's some and then in soul food. HBO Uncle Pete is that family members and a lot of people have he was the one that stayed in his room nobody really communicate Erica from K. UT radio speaking with Corey Minors Smith Author Attorney Singer and Transformation Knows Speaker Miss Smith tells about writing pop culture there's a several movies that have come out over two years like out of darkness that feature or star Diana Raw yes and the most recent movie that then but she portrayed a lawyer who then became elected official who started showing signs of mental illness during her legal career portrayed Nathaniel Ayers who exhibited signs of mental illness when he was at the school juilliard the secret she kept that start Kyla Pratt and it was featured on TV one have you been able to put your finger on why it's so difficult for us as a people African Americans to actually over twenty years so this is a real thing there are real resources and we should not be shamed in the having as Catherine Zeta Jones popular actress living with bipolar Prince Harry he talks about his depression after his mother's death there's just based on something that triggered him that he didn't know he suppressed Kevin love another NBA player openly talks about his dealings with anxiety particularly mental illness in our families. I think it's just something that we are highly aware of the known want to talk about and you can see justice number of individuals even Jenifer Lewis famous black actress most recently on black ish she talks about her living with Bipolar and depression for I sought out movies like out of darkness that came out when I was in college because I I was basically trying to find out how other families dealt with having a so directed fences from the place by August Wilson the brother you know had mental illness the soloist that star Jamie Foxx he alkyl Pete you know and we all have a person like that in our lives if not in our own household and also another one that really portrayed as harrassing one expression that they are spying on us listening to us at that time being such a at a young age what did you think was going on that I could describe it as is weird right I didn't know what was going on I just heard my mind ah there for my mom that I was able to have a stronger understanding of what she was going through I also my master's degree is in real aspect to their life something that we relate to we're able to better except that particular issue and I have found that in regards to mental illness ready by lives whether we're dealing with it ourselves or we have a loved one living with mental illness according to what you've written in the book your mom began did in her apartment and so it was very hard for me to understand or comprehend or even just relate to what she was saying and that is why talk about it to understand that there are resources available and for us to actually use the resources that are available when you talk about mental illness you also talk about Dsm for the DSM five is out now but at that time it was DSM four and since my master's degree I've continued to work with organization the team to know who those individuals are to know who the local agencies are the law enforcement individuals who have specialized units that kion doing a former NBA player he recently talked about his dealings and ban in a mental health institution when he had a mental breakdown camera or recording device that there were recording devices in the cars and when we went to church pastors or guest pastors we're talking about things that she wins like Nami the National Alliance on mental illness and different services and programs that they have available for families who have a mentally ill loved one you were somewhat lucky in as with your profile in the city people knew you and with your job being a laser county one thing that I did after my last election was write an article about my experiences because at the time I was campaigning talking about you know the small cameras being in a hole in the wall you know could be like a whole from a nail but she believed that someone put a on so I just try to educate myself I encourage others who have a family member living with mental illness to educate themselves and to work with their loved ones court I received a phone call from an employee in another jurisdiction another part of our co county who knew me and contacted me to let me know they found my mother in a vacant House with no utilities on that information I didn't even know how to process I did not know how to process it at the time I'm on my way to court a cyst those who might have is Kati breakdown and instead of taking them to jail not take them to the emergency room for a Mental Health Assessment Education Guidance and counseling and I went into that Master's program because I wanted to learn more about my mother's illness through that program we studied with has been very helpful having people know to contact me have been very helpful and I just strongly encouraged family members and friends have a level of mental illness I couldn't go to help her at that time but I thank God that there were people who knew to contact me then I unable to contact members of her treatment teams strongly encourage the National Alliance on mental illness as a number one resource in my number one resource because it is a national organization and and my family who can do the things I can't do I go to where she is right now because I was on my way to court so working together with others I have not done before and after thirty years of trying to do it ourselves if you will we are relying on the assistance of the resources into a mental institution so at this point we have gone through the process through the probate court to have a garden that light them assign

Texas NPR apple Nathaniel Ayers Kyla Pratt Canton Ohio K. U. T. Miss Smith Catherine Zeta Jones HBO Prince Harry Corey Uncle Pete NBA Erica Attorney Diana Raw
Quick update.

The Bipolar DM

11:44 min | 6 months ago

Quick update.

"Welcome to the bipolar DM. I'm your host Jason. This is an irregular podcast about dungeons and dragons indie writing and living with a mental illness in particular bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder as well as major depressive disorder. If you have any questions or comments, you can send me an email at the bipolar dm at gmail.com or you can visit my web page www dot the bipolar dm dot com there you CA- find my previous episodes of this this. Of this podcast as well as my blog and sources. In today's episode, we're going to discuss my own diagnosis and my kind of my story. Of what happened to me through the VA system over the last twenty two years? I was diagnosed with borderline per sorta wallows in the army. And discharged with an honorable discharge and mmediately went to the VA system and started in San Diego a beautiful the A. They went to Birmingham Alabama. Rishi. Hole. With bullet holes in it. Then to Arkansas. which I believe one who flew over the CUCKOO's nest must have been filmed in because it is wicked scary in the psych ward. And but I get to go to the mental health. Department at the Va Clinic and Branson so I don't have to drive two hours to see a doctor. but I got a new dock he hasn't. We. Haven't talked very much. So. I'm wanting the Giddy service dog and he's opposed to the idea I that we can even do that. You know. Even though I've shown documentation saying, yes, we can. The VA although will not pay for the dog itself will pay for me to go get the dog, Anche Abi and hotel training with the dog. And then also returned. And they also pay all the vet bills. through the prosthetics departments because this is a mobility issue. What I require is a psychiatric service dog dog that specially trained and between thirty and forty commands or tasks. From Me Up in the morning making sure I take my meds to sink that. I do self care feeding myself and Getting out and exercising and walking the dog of course, and and other things interrupting a potentially dangerous situation if I become obsessive or overwhelmed emotionally. That the dog could do something to distract me and get get my attention away from what's going on. I believe I have a strong case. The problem is I got to. Present it to dock in order for him to sign off on it well, just because he signs off on, it doesn't mean it's going to happen because it's guy per statics. Then it's gotta go up the chain of command be approved somewhere up mucky mucks. and. There's no guarantee that they'll say yes. So We'll. See. But back to the question, a hand and that is. My diagnosis and what it is I have bipolar too and bipolar disorder formerly called Manic depression is a mental health condition that causes extreme mood swings that include emotional high. Mania Hypo Mania and lows depression. When you become depressed, you may feel sad or hopeless and lose interest or pleasure IMAS activities. When your mood shifts maniac hypo mania, a less extreme mania, you may feel euphoric full of energy or unusually irritable. These mood swings can affect sleep energy activity judgment behavior, and the ability to think clearly. People may experience mood mood swings. Sadness elevated mood. Anger anxiety apathy apprehension euphoria. General Discontent Gilts hopelessness. Loss of interests or loss of. Loss of behavior. Restlessness. Self harming you know unwanted thoughts or delusions lack of concentration racing thoughts. slowest slowness activity or a false belief of superiority. Depression Manic. Agitated depression or paranoia. waking law sleep difficulty falling asleep or excessive sleepiness. Also common fatigue rapid in. Frenzy speaking. Episodes of mood swings may include. Arc. May occur rarely or Multiple Times A. While most people will experience some emotional symptoms speech being episodes some may not experience any. Although bipolar disorder is a lifelong condition. You can manage your mood swings and other symptoms by following treatment plan and most cases bipolar is treated with medications and psychological counseling or psychotherapy. There several times I by types of bipolar and related disorders they may include Menia or Hypo mania depression. Symptoms can include or cause unpredictable changes in mood and behavior resulting in significant distress and difficulty in life. Bipolar one disorder you've had at least one manic episode that may be preceded or followed by hypo manic or major depressive episode. As some cases, mania may trigger a break from reality such psychosis. By tope bipolar two disorder which I have. You have at least one major depressive episode and at least one Hypo Manic episode but you're never had a manic episode. said. Classic Disorder. You've had at least two years or one children teenagers. Wow of many periods of Hypo, mania symptoms of the depressive symptoms they'll listen veer them major depression. So. There's other things going on nearby to disorder is not a mile milder form of polar one. But a separate diagnosis while the maniac episodes of bipolar one disorder can be severe and dangerous individuals bipolar too can be depressed for longer periods, which can cause significant impairment. Although bipolar disorder can occur at any age typically diagnosis and the teenage years or early twenties symptoms can vary from person to person and symptoms may vary over time. Yeah Here's some of the things that you do when you have when your manic abnormally upbeat jumpy or wired increased activity energy. Our agitation exaggerated sense of wellbeing and self-confidence Fauria decreased need for sleep unsafe unusual talk business. Racing thoughts distractibility poor decision making for example, going on buying sprees taking sexual risks are making foolish investments. A major depressive episode. Include the press moods such as feeling. Sad empty hopeless. Or tearful in children and teens. APPREC- can appear. As irritability. Mark loss of interest or feeling no pleasure in all or almost all activities. Significant weight loss when not dieting weight gain or decrease or increase in appetite. Either insomnia or sleeping too much either restless censor slowed behavior fatigue or loss of energy feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt decreased ability think or concentrate or in the vice of nece. And thinking our thinking about planning or attempting suicide. ANYWAYS That's What that is in a nutshell. Suarez you know what my notes say but. Was Bipolar is in reality is is been the single most devastating thing to affect my life. I have lost a career in the military. I have lost a church. I have lost a wife. All to this beast that lives within me. Another study that was a couple years garth thing is two, thousand, fifteen maybe. said that ninety percent of bipolar marriages her marriage warned person has bipolar. Then there's a ninety percent chance of divorce. and. When I heard that stat. It actually made me feel kind of good about myself because. Hey I mean if ninety percent of other people can't do it only ten percent succeed. You know keeping their marriage together when they have bipolar. I must not too too bad. But. Is probably been my greatest loss is my family. To this disease. And that's all I have for right now. If you have any questions. You can reach me at the bipolar DM the at gmail.com or you can go to my web page www dot the bipolar M. dot com. We're also on facebook at deep bipolar em have a good day.

bipolar disorder major depressive episode depressive disorder Manic episode VA Va Clinic depression Jason facebook Birmingham Alabama manic episode. lack of concentration CA Anche Abi San Diego Arkansas. difficulty falling asleep Branson
Live Action hypomanic come down

Dancing with Bipolar

09:39 min | 4 months ago

Live Action hypomanic come down

"Hi, this is Don Shereen. And this is my podcast dancing with bipolar. So I just kind of wanted to do like a little experiment type thing here today and let me just put the disclaimer out that I took my meds about 10 minutes just starting this so because what I'm in right now is like a full-blown Mania but psychosis. So I just kind of wanted to talk talk a little bit through it. So maybe people would get a better idea of what well at least what I see or hear or feel when I'm in a psychosis off psychosis mode, cuz I have I have ways of pulling myself out where I am right now things that are very real and are very tangible like girl dog and he's crazy kittens that You know make it real or at least give me a basis of reality so I can pull it. I think I said that so I could pull it back in if I have to walk. Yeah, so my mania is kind of weird because it always seems to go towards like nature and natural things and faces, which I guess is pretty typical of mania, you know, when you look at artists and stuff like that who suffered with manic depression as they would call it back then or just possibly just thought I'd miss you know, disjointed faces colors everything like that. Well what happens with me is like, okay. I feel like I can see through cloaking wage, you know, if you believe the theory and all the stuff that the world is actually cloaked with something so you can't see the full picture behind it or figure out what the Dead. But the game is that's being run behind it. You know behind the World Behind what the quote unquote Matrix which thinks it's way bigger than the Matrix. I think it's hugely than the Matrix ever could have even hooked up to invent. So but what I see is it's hard to explain but everything turns into geographical shapes which very logical space. So like I'm looking at a tree or a couple of trees right now and there's a square in the middle of it and then it goes up into a triangle and then it goes up into like a a a octagon which goes up into a blah blah blah blah blah and it's like building kind of like it's not like Etch-a-Sketch, but kind of like Lincoln Logs with a very much a mathematical aspect to Infinity quilts as okay told you so this is part of how it is of attack. So it's kind of like you forgot to take the wrapper off your gum before you bit it and then you get that tinfoil taste with the sweetness of the gum. It's kind of like what psychosis is like wage. It's like you're on the verge of something going either way and I guess it depends on which part of the bite is first now with this one. I have like running soundtrack once in my head actually the other day from the time that I got up I cook. Okay too long from the time. I got up until the time. I finally like a throughout I couldn't find my meds all day, right? I couldn't find them. I didn't leave the house cuz I knew that I was going into something that was probably not good to be out in public with and home. I stayed home and I never put any music on I never put the radio on I never put any form of sound on whatsoever. And I just kind of sat in this. Well, I think I had my windows and stuff open table. Isn't like a dark house, but there was no sound and yeah, I kind of like get to watch all my own stuff like if I could draw or write or or p as fast as this stuff is as going through my head at those times when I don't need any other stimulation whatsoever. Yeah, my head is like off my head is going like a thousand miles an hour and the idea is all seem pretty brilliant at the time, you know. Well, so then the funny thing is as soon as I go to lay down gnome know the next morning when I woke up and I look up and I look over on the counter and the kitchen and there was all my meds right there. So it's like what was I thinking that they were the day before that they were camouflaged the cells so well-off I could not find my medication when it was right there in front of me like literally right there in front of me. I just don't know. And also have the running soundtrack of songs, which is like the greatest hits compilation of all time possible with my own stuff added into it. Cuz the Boss music like music is key to my life when I'm in like these kind of States, you know, it's kind of an altered state of mind. I guess. It's a good way to put it music is like one of the way one of the ways that I can ground enough. To be able to like usually figure out what is happening or not, or at least not be so scared to like be able to like go forward and investigate a little bit further to see what is and isn't happening. So I've been doing both but see I took my medication. Let me see about 20 minutes ago 25 minutes ago before I started doing this and I'm already dead and out. So all the panic. I was feeling in The psychosis and all the heart racing and the fractals. I think you'll understand right? If you go through this what I'm talking about factual's that you see the things that just are right on that edge of being real if we lived in Superbook Superbook super comic World Super comic book World. Okay. So still a little manic is speaking of which is really kind of funny a side here. So I'm trying to break in my house and like seems like when I'm in these altered, you know states of mania and psychosis that it was seemed like a good time to do work on the house and expel that energy towards that instead. Really losing my mind. So I've been working on my roof because it's a bad roof and it's kind of stable be unsafe I would say so what I did was I put the black hole which is supposed to be the pole and it would still work as such. However, I was going to make somebody a superhero cape of which I had the blue and the red fabric which the pole is now wrapped in with my superhero Angel. Actually, they're moth Wings backing it and I think it hey, you know, what if I ever ever want to alter Eco out look out for the red blue white and black moth and like, you know, you gotta get rid of the hospital see this is what it is. This is Mania and this is delusion and this is the whole thing not even going to mention what I'm thinking about And outside with pieces on my porch from my roof that fell in but does Wigwam like anything see that idea might actually work? Okay. Anyway, I just wanted to get like alive kind of handle on what it's kind of like but it's I'm not explaining it very well. I'm I'm putting it out there cuz I'm feeling it wage, but it's like every electrical impulse in your body is like somehow firing but not all at the right time and not like synchronistically or even any kind of Rhythm that whoever everything just kind of off. So yeah. I was going to get back there something I was talking about the music about two before. Anyway, I have a lot of music in my history and we had a piano right now cuz yeah, it would probably not help but I would think it would help but it was probably try my neighbors crazy. So maybe it's good. I don't have a piano right off. All right. I'm going to let this one go. This is just live-action. This is what it feels like to be coming out of psychosis. Cuz my meds are actually starting to work kind of sad taking it all down a little bit. Anyway, this is Dodge. This is my podcast dancing with bipolar. This is what it feels like to be psychotic and actually start coming down off your psychotic ride. All right, catch you all later.

psychosis Don Shereen Dodge Superbook Superbook 10 minutes 20 minutes 25 minutes
Good Days and Bad Days - Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - 4/14/20

This Is Only A Test

34:32 min | 11 months ago

Good Days and Bad Days - Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - 4/14/20

"Welcome to still entitled the Atoms Have Project Will. I'm Adam now. Norm Norman. Will still hiding behind microphones. Luck luckily can't tell if I'm smiling and having fun now house. Everybody's mental state are we doing? I'm sitting in a dark room all by myself talking to the computer okay. Let's talk about our mental state. Verse Stuck in I've I've I've talked about this a little bit but I on my paternal on my father's side. I have a long family history of bipolar disorder manic depression and it has luckily i. I don't seem to be a suffer of that affliction however You know during this during this lockdown about every six days I wake up super fricking depress like just just nothing makes nothing. Seems like it would just nothing. Seems like it could possibly feel good again. That seems really normal. I mean I think that's that's that's entirely appropriate response to the current situation that the thing the mental calisthenics that. I'm that I'm reminding myself are. I am not mad at what I think I'm mad at. I'm not upset about what I think I'm upset about. That's the thing I keep on telling myself like this is not the moment unpacked some garbage. That's going on in my head. It is like sequestering myself and Meditation Medication. Whatever it takes just to kind of get like back to feeling some sort of even keel and it doesn't last more than maybe a few hours the most but damn it is a. Yeah it's intense. I woke up this morning in a really really crappy mood I. It's funny I we were talking about before Adam got here but like I've yelled at my kid more in the past month than I probably haven't the five years preceding Like the the the like the one of the themes that I've found talking to people on twitter and discordant all the other places that were that were all chatting now are is that it even if your completely unaffected by the disease part of what's happening you have you're not getting you're not sick. Your loved ones aren't sick. You're in a place where people are relatively healthy. You're staying at home. Isolating yourself the impact of that is having impacts that were impossible to predict and and seem excessive except that they're not like it's it's okay to be upset and it's okay to be here -tated it's okay and but we have to manage that and be aware of it and I've had the same depression issues like I wake up some mornings. I'm just like I'm just GONNA go back to sleep for another two hours and then I feel maybe a little bit better or worse on the other side of that I mean i. I don't think anyone in my house has had the same but we definitely had mood swings for short a seventeen year old coming month old has plenty of mood. Swings in we find resetting on a regular basis every day you know call very consciously resetting emotions and resetting. Hauer were talking to each other is important. Because you can't have these like three to four day you know when things are normal like ups and downs where you're not talking to each other or you snap and let things build up like yeah that that doesn't work as well. We have to shorten that cycle and in fact having seventeen month old. I feel like helps me with that because I'm already before we had to go into lockdown. I've already had the remind myself. He can't control what's going on his world and I got to be empathetic to that. God is manifest in the greater world. Also yeah the only way to survive an infant or a toddler is to give all the way into what is happening at this moment. Wilkerson cleaning your eyeglasses nail out of your foot and is what's happening and it's I mean the good thing about kids that age too. Is that like they reawakened sense of empathy. That I don't think I was capable. I didn't I wasn't capable of for a long time or I lost as I became a young adult. And and you you you pay attention The the depression thing though. I'm sure I'm sure that the number of people who are seeking mental health counseling and marital counseling and all the other kinds of counseling. That we all need after this Like I I was really lucky when I was in college and when I was diagnosed with depression when I was in college and thought I had had mono or something that was just a debilitating long-term minor illness and when the doctor said No. I don't think you've gone. I think you're probably depressed. Why don't you go talk to the therapist over here and and and like that really worked for me? It was really good and helped me figure it out. But but part of that for me is learning triggers things that set me off and send me down on a spiral and we're in a like normally. It's goofy stuff like I'm almost shampoo and I don't have any replacement shampoo and it's like the stupidest thing in the world but I've learned that if I just keep spare bottle of shampoo I don't put myself in that situation and can avoid that and and the situation where now. It's hard to avoid the stuff. Yeah we'll such it really is and I. I also don't mean like you know there's a lot of There's a lot of denial of depression online. There's a lot of A factions of people who built like depression just doesn't exist and refuse to acknowledge it and I I don't like I don't want to sound like I'm being a depression tourist here because I'm a family members that a lot of friends who it affects a on a daily hourly lifetime basis and I understand it. It's just a yeah I was describing. The other day is like you know in this. You'll be going along just fine. Wow I'm wondering this really well then your pencil breaks. You're like I think I'm about to have a breakdown and Gail Right. It feels like a frequently or at different times or unexpected times. The scale disappears from your ability to deal and going to the online communities are very wide ranging in their ability to the signal noise ratio for for being empathetic. Twitter is not a good place to necessarily have an outlet and be vulnerable And there are other. Were finding plenty of other places are discords? A great place a meeting New People they are and you sometimes going smaller a lot smaller a lot better. Do you are the rituals that you do atom that like you gotta go back to to set yourself you know. I talked to my partner about it. I talked to my wife and you know I have learned that that that axiom. What I think I'm mad at is not what I'm Matt At. What I think is get me worked up is not the thing that's getting me worked up holding out as a mantra in my head and not giving off trying not to give oxygen to what I think is. The issue is has turned out to be an incredibly vital mental exercise. And it's not at all like I'm always successful at it by any stretch of the imagination. But you know there really. Is this this this is so I look obviously? I'm attempting to watch. The watch are attempting to Kinda bump up a level of my of my consciousness about it to not just be absorbed by it but also to see it in context even even if I don't feel in context I can see it and behave as if it is in context even if it doesn't make any sense to me in that emotional moment that I think is the most important even let him the kind of factual acknowledgement to yourself that even if I'm not ready emotionally to go so the journey figuring out what. I'm actually angry about the thing. That's bugging me but knowing that that's detached from how. I'm behaving like that super helpful so this is the thing that I WANNA call out right. Because a lot of people who deny depression often think that it that it should just work just like that and that's the most dangerous that's the most pernicious shitty aspect of that argument because it might like that for some people who are affected less. But that's not what depressions Ri. That's not what being affected by. Depression is really about and so right before we get into this like. Hey I heard Adamson turns out that it's all if your depression is because of brain chemistry No amount of being aware of yourself going to help you know. I always think of Wil Wheaton's beautiful phrase. Depression doesn't want you to get better because depression is Jack Depression. Depression is not great So all that being said I got to see thing to yesterday. He came by to pick up some of his stuff and I have a picture of it and there he is with Jillian. Die Each like fifteen feet away from him and he's in the middle of the sidewalk and we're having this conversation and when my mom showed me the picture it actually made me choke up because I miss hugging my kid. He's quarantined somewhere else in doing his thing. And you know. That's that's tough. That that part would be heartbreaking. Like like at least I'm cooped up in here with my seven year old and I can hugger anytime I want but then well and I'm talking to both my sons on a you know every few days at the very at the very whitest predeceased so that you know I am getting in touch with them. That's something going to grocery store and wearing the face mask. I'm finding trouble with because before we're all GONNA FACE MASS YOU. We would be distance from each other but we can. We can do a head nod. There's a smile. There's some acknowledgement facemask. It's super tough because even if someone smiling and giving you the acknowledgement you don't feel it as much. You gotta work on your smiling norm. That's the secret at the same time. I'm finding when I walked. Look we can talk about how well San Francisco is dealing with a a a social distancing. But when I'm walking past the mask wearers and the careful in the mission district and we're like we see each other walking. We both adjust to walk wider circles around each other often out into the street. So you can be far from two parents. Their kid at Cetera I'm doing a lot of. Hey how you doing? And I'm finding a lot of return of that and then in a way. This has made me closer to my neighbors than I ever have. The thing we the thing I've noticed going on walks and bike rides and stuff. Is that people you cross the? There's a lot more foot traffic than they're normally as but be there's a much there's much more. Hey how you doing hope everything's going. Hope you're hope you're staying safe. Yada Yada like friendly small talk with people that we've never met before obviously had some nice it is. I had that conversation with three dude. Smoking a joint shop. Yes j. The dudes I would have spoken to under normal daily basis but screw it. We are hauled. We're all citizens of the world right. We all have something in common. Appreciate that there's a way in which the there's a unity to To the social behavior that feels really A unifying Not Not a well written France but you know what I mean. I need to work on the poetry. A little bit atom. I think you're you know we're today. We're talking about attested t-shirt based on something. I said where the T shirt says rhetorically. I'm a mess. Let seems seems right. That's good right Hey can I tell you about a film festival we watch this week? Of course. That sounds great. Elmore Leonard we did in three nights. We did Jackie Brown out of sight and get shorty. That's hilarious trove. Jim In that order Exactly an order and it's a fascinating. It's a fascinating order because you remember when get shorty came out it just like maybe you don't but like when get shorty came out. It was a big deal. Everyone was like holy cow. That's amazing movie John. Travolta's twenty I. I don't think I've seen it since it came out. I taught in theaters. And I don't think I've been back to it since then. I've watched outside and Jackie Brown dozens of times each of the three movies. It is definitely the lightest of the three movies but all three of those movies have perfect casts excellent direction three totally different directors. Barry Levinson forget Shorty Quentin Tarantino of course Jackie Brown and Steven Soderbergh at the peak of his powers. For out of sight with the George Clooney who is literally fifteen years younger than I am now in out of sight. It's weird to see him so that that was one of his first. Things was like that in the peacemaker. Were his first few things out of God you know. What three kings yeah? I watched peacemaker about six months ago because because Mimi Leder who directed it and is riddick director. I think me let did some of the episodes of care. Oh that would make sense. I really really well put together. I think it was not like it was very thrilling. But it kind of rolls off of you as I recall but it's absolutely like it's a beautifully made film perfectly put together really solid excellent action adventure film. What's that was? The first DreamWorks Film Wasn't it was it really. I think I mean. I saw trolls world tour. This weekend. when it was because they did the home released for twenty bucks thing and Which is very good music. Lovely message like animation those movies astounding they do. All the physicality renders that are just read and It opens with the twenty fifth anniversary of DreamWorks. Open like title card and I was just like Oh shit. Dreamworks has been around for twenty five years. That's that's amazing. Why Barry Sonnenfeld? That's what was bothering me. Oh Yes yes yes. Yeah you're from that on amending black right. He did he did and there. There is operatives. There was an interesting twitter. Thread that rain over the weekend of filmmakers an eighties and nineties had an unbelievable streaks in in their run. You know when you think of John Carpenter rate Ridley Scott and Tony Scott absolutely and not like terrence because every one of his movies. But they're very far apart like there's some filmmakers in the late eighties early nineties mid nineties. Who just every year amazing pieces. Something incredible yeah and I think bears auto fell is it should be on a low. Get Shorty the men in black run on an threat Where you're talking about the Alex Navarro Threat about a movie spun this. Yeah that was. It was a good thread by the way men in black is I maybe only franchise in which I think. The third movie is better than the other two is the third one. The one with Just not Grodin Berlin. Berlin Broden Borough Josh. Brolin doing an amazing young Tommy Lee Jones. Imprescia has the heart at the end. And I think that one Rick Baker at is most powerful terms of all the creature designs they threw in there. I remember I remember texting Rick while he was working on that one and I remember when it finally came out I was like. Oh how is it? It's actually good. I so many films there was a there was a moment somewhere after the twenty one jump street movies were gone. When Lord and Miller were theoretically making a twenty one jump street slash men in black crossover. That was long rumored and like look Lord Miller. They did okay for themselves in the in the time after that. I'm fine with what they've done at the spider breast pretty good. I'd watch that again but I would love to see that men in black twenty one jump street. Crossover with channing. Tatum and and a Jonah Hill. Thank Storm Yeah. This is all feels like the preamble. I don't feel like we've gotten to know me. Podcast what are we talking about big? I want to apologize for being a little late to the podcast in the world doesn't know this but you guys waited for about six minutes. I was I got a some new parts of the Eagle Moss. Acta one and I was building out my So when I get a kit like that with all those moving parts I tend to build temporary storage for them so I can move them around and get them out of my way without having to move out of little tiny parts and pieces so training. Yeah so I was doing that. Getting Ready for the bill tomorrow because on the livestream. I'm GONNA or today. I guess people listening to this podcast today. Yeah I'm doing livestream at one. Pm and part of that livestream will be continuing vehicle. Boss Echo one nice. Yeah and this is one year weathering as you're building along which you did when you did the money and Falcon the Cassini Kit. No and you know. It's it's Kit Kit Eagle Boston laureate. I think I'd do it just as it is. Because it's beautiful in the weathering. I mean I actually might do really subtle weathering just to call out some details and make it look a little more scale but it would be subtle legally getting edges and stuff like that pop into a little bit better exactly besides all that. I've been slowly making my way through season two of Westworld to watch these three That's been Jeffrey. Wright is a national treasure who is who deserves more acclaimed for his excellent abilities as an actor and storytelling and Evan Rachel would go. Oh my Gosh de amazing since once and again yeah. She's been amazing since she was twelve. I don't want to spoil this. Because both those seasons and now in the third season it builds up to the last episodes having a lot of things coming together and and reveals and make you reevaluate the SH. The you've seen so far but performance in the second season. I'm really curious when you get to the end. You like closely in Through okay okay. There are some actors and actors that we love that. When you re watch or by the time you get then we'll have to talk about their performance throughout this season because it's very conscious decisions they made and it's also a college play that I think is really interesting and I've actually have an idea about how to do. It are the are the blank figures walking around season. Two which are very like full body suits right there the layers. I think those are foam latex mom but they're super elaborate. Yeah complete full-body scopes that I'd I haven't seen this. What do they look like mannequins? Walking around or like like there's something there's something kind of hellraiser. They're all white and yet what they look like is connective tissue showing muscle underneath. Oh Yeah definitely nightmare. Fuel if mocked up in your nightmare you'd be like Shit got real not the anatomical models opening credits. Yeah we'd come to life okay. Yeah Oh norm. I want to tell you actually. This is apropos of nothing but I May I saw a bunch of new builds last week and one of them was. I fixed Something table saw and I had gotten a care package from. Tom Saxon one of the things I got from him. Who SAYS SO? I work for the bill and solidarity with CIA back in New York. It's awesome nice. Yeah but yeah. Let's do stupid from the from the program Cap Gina on Saturday night. We're playing board. Games are working on a puzzle or something and literally couldn't figure usually put a movie or something on it and we. We didn't watch movies so I just loaded up the first season of the good place and we accidentally watched the entire season of the good place which it turns out of is like it's the best thing like it is. It is so smart and so well done and even when you know what's coming it still is absolutely wonderful. We lost norm norm norms videos. Gone and also apparently has audio way. I'll be back hold on okay. Norm turned off the camera. I changed my angle. Whoa FANCY WOW The first that first season is a good place. I mean the whole rest of because I watched the last season which aired earlier this year. I haven't either I kind of don't it's one of those ones that like. It's stopped watching the west wing is I don't want it to end ever again my head. I want that show to be continuing. Norm disappeared again. That's fine only watching old stuff is that were you find the most comfort. No actually we saw that Let's see what went last night. Insecure new new new season of insecure premiered last night so did a new season of killing eve and also run which sleepy waller bridges new project also had its first episode. Premiere. Hbo released all the things last night. Apple Apple. Tv Open Up Apple TV plus to everyone last week. And if you haven't had a chance for all mankind is on there and it's it's it's not perfect but it's really neat and the costumes and props are really well done. It's absolutely lovely work. I gone on that. Yeah it's it's like look. It's one of those things it's like the man at high castle you're GonNa Watch the first episode of it. And if you like it you're GonNa know immediately or near like right at all the way down. And if not you're gonNA back slowly away and be totally okay with that too But it's it's like is obviously made with a lot of love and care from Cam for us from the from the artists that were on the props and costumes and stuff. So two people have now expressed to me an issue with wearing masks in public that I did not expect and roughly the same story And one of them is my wife who was walking down the street listening to a podcast on our air pods when she took her mask off. Basque kicked bolster air pods out and into a sewer grate. Yup that was pulsing literally white liquid like the impossibility of ever. Seen them again was immediately apparent that they were gone. And somebody else distracts me. I just lost my air. Fuck down sewer. I fired one during fire season last year. I was getting a Burrito or something on mission and when I took the mask off as I went into the shop I fired them. Both out into the street on mission and one went into the sewer. Great and the other one was like midway into the bus lane and Yeah we've made some more mass over the weekend and that was a conscious part. The thing I hate about making Massachu- bands right one ban low band and a high band. I like the high band pretty high around the back. The low ban we put snaps on there and so now it's no one ban and then we just snap it to like a respirator. It's likely respirator goes on to hook it. Around your like my respirator. Hook it around my neck and then pull it up over the top of my head and it kind of looks at the top of my head so easy snap. And then the top part slips up and it doesn't go 'cause manipulate with your ear. That's the worst part. I've been so the design that I followed for Mary. Robinson Cal Modification is that it's a single shoelace that comes up one side around the back of your head and down the other way so I put it on and do a little earlier and then tie it and it's really pretty comfortable. I I got a box of pg aging to decontaminate the garage right now I can cut some face shields. Prison friends who have muscles already said? Hey y'all you're on your own for the personal protective gear and like no man I got to recommendations for these guys sparkman. Tv shows I find TV. New shows are tough for me to jump in right now But easy to put ninety minutes to move one it's on net flicks Death of stolen hormone do bite and NUCCI. It's sink hooted. Veep and in the loop. It's right. Where a comedy Pierce lower satire about the death of stolen loosely based on what actually happened with the power grabs apple in nineteen fifty three. And it's hilarious does not sound like light light fair. Yeah GonNa put it. It's it's the type of like ridiculous farce that I needed and then there's a movie on Amazon prime on the shutter network but it's a Japanese Zombie movie called one cut of the debt and I felt really tough to talk too much about this movie because there's a big reveal in it but it's comedy also comedy. Zombie movie and the first thirty seven minutes of the film is a single take and that's while speaking of that. I watched nineteen seventeen again. Oh I still still doing it for you. Oh my God like even though the materialist tough I find not so beautiful and the performances so moving in feel so real and to be honest as as a filmmaker but you know as a storyteller in visual mediums that are filled with Jason's. It's hard for me to turn off the the button that wants to look for the cuts and so actually in successive viewings. I'm more able to. This is like the third time I've watched it. I'm more able to sort of give up that stuff. In Really Gloria how precise the pacing of the storytelling is given. They shot it. Completely perfectly linearly. It's bizarre the editor has said he'll they'll never reveal. How many cuts? But I wonder if overtime let's say a decade from now two decades from now some retrospective of they'll do a commentary or shown image of time line to finally show where the cuts are. I would love to see that premier time line for that for that film. Good Lord I mean yeah. It's amazing have you guys watch an-and pacalypse. The Zombie design be comedy from. I feel like it's skin. I don't know I don't really I. It's it's it's worth watching. It's really lovely and it's on. It's on one of the dreams ever since I can't remember which one but it's A. It's a Zombie comedy musical and it evoked buffy vibes for me. A lot of really positive ways all right so A bit of television every single night to sort of wind down and Well I've also been I think I've beaten most of the pistol whipped layers on hard. You want to be the new one full throttle when it's unbelievable. The full throttle one. I still haven't made it through onto hard. I think I made it through on a medium but I discovered scavenger mode in pissing lip scavenger mode. Is You only have fifteen bullets unless you pistol whipped someone in front of you and then you get there? Is that one of the modifiers. It's a game and tried to add. It's really fun because it it takes like it took me a while to get up the nerve to do pistol whips instead of shooting people at that. Close them but yeah. My legs are getting really strong. Have you the sabre released a fitness oriented map last week or this week? That has its way more like work. It is intense on the legs. It's your ops. It has lots of obstacles. And you're ducking and dodging and bobbing and weaving and the whole thing I also find a box VR. Which if you haven't tried is like a it's like a boxing type workout thing that like. I did twenty minutes of that the other day and it wore me that warm. I were me out. Pretty good okay. My arms were sore the next day which I didn't expect without wasting so refined so. Yeah no you're just you're basically just doing like like like your balls flying at you give to punch the nobody wants you. Specific like crosses jabs and uppercuts and stuff like that and dodging. So it's more like shadowboxing the stuff that I've done so far icy gotcha yeah. It's neat though. I did some Lego over the weekend. Ooh I ordered. I didn't know this existed. Somebody doesn't like Kids Jones L. Lego launched us. If you're what if you're listening to the Audio I'm holding. It's a Koi fish and Lego technic sets that they launched on as a crowd funded campaign in two thousand eighteen form. This is on indie. Gogo for about thirty bucks and I had to buy it on Ebay for fifty bucks but how. It's an automaton grady. How is the skin just sheet of plastic that you fold over? Yeah plastic they and they launched it with different skins so you can find on Ebay but like there's a shark skin and different ones. This is the Coefficient. One says the so good this let's whiskers and it's their only official. Automaton that they've done so we've been we we did like. Oh this weekend to. We went through the pile of shame the garage that we bought a number built and did the Simpsons House which is incredible. It's so good awesome. Yeah it was. It was a fun when I think we're going to APU's shop next but but it like just as a thing when somebody needs a moment. We have the bags there. You grab a set of bags out you build for an hour and everybody helps helps you know. Idle hands are the devil's plaything or something. I can't remember what we should do. A spoiler cast next week. We should find a movie that we can all launch between now and next next week Maybe we'll revisit or new one but we can come up one that you've been itching to talk about or itching to watch tours to really really just. You're trolls world. Tour is going to change your life guys. Will you send a list? I love how Senator Lists. Yeah and we'll also put out there for people if there's something that they want to suggest that they wanna hear thoughts on you know they can post comments and we'll have six days to go watch it and then talk about it. I don't think we were doing spoiler casts for like their earlier. Mci movies where we do we do. We do a winter. Soldier spoiler cast. I think maybe we enacting talk episodes. It's it's enough to make you think we're good okay. I think we're good. I literally. I just watched that movie about four weeks three weeks ago. Go to like safe spaces. Yeah that ragged rock. Yeah okay. Good a place as any. Yeah so good nose to say if there's a movie want us to watch and talk about and it's available on a net or Amazon prime That's the easiest way we'll also runs it No problem it'll be new But will announce it on twitter and on our discord. What movie we're GonNa Watch so you guys can wash too and then we'll talk about it. Excellent on the tech pod this week at Tech pod dot content that town. We had a friend of tested. Mike Mike on and talked about how old video games work. So we talked about. Like how electric's wizards turned cirque dumb circuits into games like pong all the way through how you own maintain arcade machines and like we talked about the end of CRT's and and all the way through to like fpg based emulators that can basically reprogram these FPJ. Emulators are amazing because you can buy thing for one hundred and fifty bucks that basically replicates the actual circuitry in an old console or arcade arcade machine Godoi and and so you get exactly precise emulation of the hardware that you then can run the software on and we went into that. He's he's on the board of the video game history foundation so they do Like they do preservation for source code and MATERIAL SURROUNDING GAMES. All that stuff. It was a really lovely chat that we have with. You can find that at ten on town lovely norm. What's coming up on the site? We got your builds so we actually are you earlier but Adam. You're generating a lot of awesome awesome builds and hope having fun documenting them. I phone so people can look forward to a lot of your Corinthian builds rolling out starting this week. I'm hoping to charge. Churn out a few more this week already. Cool all right now then. We'll see guys next week and we'll spoke cast. Then guys have a good waiting by.

depression twitter Norm Norman Adam Amazon apple DreamWorks Hauer Wilkerson France Gail Right Wil Wheaton San Francisco Elmore Leonard Jackie Brown Barry Sonnenfeld George Clooney Mci Mimi Leder Ri
Good Days and Bad Days - Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - 4/14/20

Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project

34:32 min | 11 months ago

Good Days and Bad Days - Still Untitled: The Adam Savage Project - 4/14/20

"Welcome to still entitled the Atoms Have Project Will. I'm Adam now. Norm Norman. Will still hiding behind microphones. Luck luckily can't tell if I'm smiling and having fun now house. Everybody's mental state are we doing? I'm sitting in a dark room all by myself talking to the computer okay. Let's talk about our mental state. Verse Stuck in I've I've I've talked about this a little bit but I on my paternal on my father's side. I have a long family history of bipolar disorder manic depression and it has luckily i. I don't seem to be a suffer of that affliction however You know during this during this lockdown about every six days I wake up super fricking depress like just just nothing makes nothing. Seems like it would just nothing. Seems like it could possibly feel good again. That seems really normal. I mean I think that's that's that's entirely appropriate response to the current situation that the thing the mental calisthenics that. I'm that I'm reminding myself are. I am not mad at what I think I'm mad at. I'm not upset about what I think I'm upset about. That's the thing I keep on telling myself like this is not the moment unpacked some garbage. That's going on in my head. It is like sequestering myself and Meditation Medication. Whatever it takes just to kind of get like back to feeling some sort of even keel and it doesn't last more than than maybe a few hours the most but damn it is a. Yeah it's intense. I woke up this morning in a really really crappy mood I. It's funny I. We were talking about before. Adam got here but like I've yelled at my kid more in the past month than I probably haven't the five years preceding Like the like the one of the themes that I've found talking to people on twitter and discordant all the other places that were that were all chatting now are is that it even if your completely unaffected by the disease part of what's happening you have you're not getting you're not sick. Your loved ones aren't sick. You're in a place where people are relatively healthy. You're staying at home. Isolating yourself the impact of that is having impacts that were impossible to predict and and seem excessive except that they're not like it's it's okay to be upset and it's okay to be here -tated it's okay and but we have to manage that and be aware of it and I've had the same depression issues like I wake up some mornings. I'm just like I'm just GONNA go back to sleep for another two hours and then I feel maybe a little bit better or worse on the other side of that I mean i. I don't think anyone in my house has had the same but we definitely had mood swings for short a seventeen year old summing month old has plenty of mood swings in we find resetting on a regular basis resetting every day you know call very consciously resetting emotions and resetting. Hauer were talking to each other is important. Because you can't have these like three to four day you know when things are normal like ups and downs where you're not talking to each other or you snap and let things build up like yeah that that doesn't work as well. We have to shorten that cycle and in fact having seventeen month old. I feel like helps me with that because I'm already before we had to go into lockdown. I've already had the remind myself. He can't control what's going on his world and I got to be empathetic to that. God is manifest in the greater world. Also yeah the only way to survive an infant or a toddler is to give all the way into what is happening at this moment. Wilkerson cleaning vomit your eyeglasses nail out of your foot and is what's happening and it's I mean the good thing about kids that age too is that like they reawakened sense of empathy. That I don't think I was capable. I didn't I wasn't capable of for a long time or I lost as I became a young adult. And and you you you pay attention The the depression thing though. I'm sure I'm sure that the number of people who are seeking mental health counseling and marital counseling and all the other kinds of counseling. That we all need after this Like I I was really lucky when I was in college and when I was diagnosed with depression when I was in college and thought I had had mono or something that was just a debilitating long-term minor illness and when the doctor said No. I don't think you've gone. I think you're probably depressed. Why don't you go talk to the therapist over here and and and like that really worked for me? It was really good and helped me figure it out. But but part of that for me is learning triggers. The things that set me off and send me down on a spiral and we're in a like normally it's goofy stuff like I'm almost shampoo and I don't have any replacement shampoo and it's like the stupidest thing in the world but I've learned that if I just keep spare bottle of shampoo myself in that situation and can avoid that and and the situation where now. It's hard to avoid the stuff. Yeah we'll such it really is and I. I also don't mean like you know there's a lot of There's a lot of denial of depression online. There's a lot of A factions of people who built like depression just doesn't exist and refuse to acknowledge it and I don't like I don't want to sound like I'm being a depression tourist here because I'm a family members that a lot of friends who it affects a on a daily hourly lifetime basis and I understand it. It's just a yeah I was describing. The other day is like you know in this. You'll be going along just fine. Wow on weathering this really well then your pencil breaks. You're like I think I'm about to have a breakdown and Gail Right. It feels like a frequently or at different times or unexpected times. The scale just disappears from your ability to deal and going to the online communities are very wide ranging in their ability to the signal noise ratio for for being empathetic. Twitter is not a good place to necessarily have an outlet and be vulnerable And their other were finding plenty of other places are discords. A great place a meeting New People they are and you sometimes going smaller a lot smaller a lot better. Do you are the rituals that you do atom that like you gotta go back to to set yourself you know. I talked to my partner about it. I talked to my wife and you know I have learned that that that axiom. What I think I'm mad at is not what I'm Matt At. What I think is get me worked up is not the thing that's getting me worked up holding out as a mantra in my head and not giving off trying not to give oxygen to what I think is. The issue is has turned out to be an incredibly vital mental exercise. And it's not at all like I'm always successful at it by any stretch of the imagination. But you know there really. Is this this this is so I look obviously? I'm attempting to watch. The watch are attempting to Kinda bump up a level of my of my consciousness about it to not just be absorbed by it but also to see it in context even even if I don't feel in context I can see it and behave as if it is in context even if it doesn't make any sense to me in that emotional moment that I think is the most important the kind of factual acknowledgement to yourself that even if I'm not ready emotionally to go. So the journey figuring out what? I'm actually angry about the thing that's bugging me but knowing that that's detached from how. I'm behaving like that Super Helpful. So this is the thing that. I WANNA call out right because a lot of people who deny depression often think that it that it should just work just like that and that's the most dangerous that's the most pernicious shitty aspect of that argument because it might like that for some people who are affected less. But that's not what depressions Ri. That's not what being affected by. Depression is really about and so right before we get into this like hey I heard Adamson turns out that it's all if your depression is because of brain chemistry. No amount of being aware of yourself going to help you know. I always think of Wil Wheaton's beautiful phrase. Depression doesn't want you to get better because depression as deck depression. Depression is not great So all that being said I got to see thing to yesterday. He came by to pick up some of his stuff and I have a picture of it and there he is with Jillian. Die Each like fifteen feet away from him and he's in the middle of the sidewalk and we're having this conversation and when my mom showed me the picture it actually made me choke up because I miss hugging my kid. He's cortines somewhere else in doing his thing. And you know. That's that's tough. That part would be heartbreaking. Like like at least I'm cooped up in here with my seven year old and I can hugger anytime I want but then well and I'm talking to both my sons on a you know every few days at the very at the very whitest predeceased so that you know I am getting in touch with them. That's something going to grocery store and wearing the face mask. I'm finding trouble with because before we're all GONNA FACE MASS YOU. We would be distance from each other but we can. We can do a head nod. There's a smile. There's some acknowledgement mask. It's super tough because even if someone's smiling and giving you the acknowledgement you don't feel it as much. You gotta work on your smiling norm. That's the secret at the same time. I'm finding when I walked. Look we can talk about how well San Francisco is dealing with a a a social distancing. But when I'm walking past the mask wearers and the careful in the mission district and we're like we see each other walking. We both adjust to walk wider circles around each other often out into the street. So you can be far from two parents. Their kid at Cetera I'm doing a lot of. Hey how you doing? And I'm finding a lot of return of that and then in a way. This has made me closer to my neighbors than I ever have. The thing we the thing I've noticed going on walks and bike rides and stuff. Is that people you cross the? There's a lot more foot traffic than they're normally as bee. There's a much there's much more. Hey how you doing hope. Everything's going. Hope you're hope you're staying safe. Yada Yada friendly small talk with people that we've never met before obviously had some nice it is. I had that conversation with three dude. Smoking a joint shop the Athol the dudes I would have spoken to under normal daily basis but screw it. We are hauled. We're all citizens of the world right. We all have something in common. Appreciate that there's a way in which the there's a unity to To the social behavior that feels really A unifying Not Not a well written France but you know what I mean. I need to work on the poetry. A little bit atom. I think you're you know we're today. We're talking about attested t-shirt based on something. I said where the T shirt says rhetorically. I'm a mess. Let seems seems right. That's good right Hey can I tell you about a film festival we watch this week? Of course. That sounds great. Elmore Leonard we did in three nights. We did Jackie Brown out of sight and get shorty. That's hilarious trio of Jim in that order Exactly an order and it's a fascinating. It's a fascinating order because you remember when get shorty came out it just like maybe you don't but like when get shorty came out. It was a big deal. Everyone was like holy cow. That's amazing movie John. Travolta's twenty I. I don't think I've seen it since it came out. I taught in theaters. And I don't think I've been back to it since then. I've watched outside and Jackie Brown dozens of times each of the three movies. It is definitely the lightest of the three movies but all three of those movies have perfect casts excellent direction three totally different directors. Barry Levinson forget Shorty Quentin Tarantino of course Jackie Brown and Steven Soderbergh at the peak of his powers. For out of sight with the George Clooney who is literally fifteen years younger than I am now in out of sight. It's weird to see him so that that was one of his first. Things was like that in the peacemaker. Were his first few things out of God you know. What three kings yeah? I watched peacemaker about six months ago because because Mimi Leder who directed it and is arithmetic director. I think me let did some of the episodes of care. Oh that would make sense. I really really well put together. I think it was not like it was very thrilling. But it kind of rolls off of you as I recall but it's absolutely like it's a beautifully made film perfectly put together really solid excellent action adventure film. What's that was? The first DreamWorks Film Wasn't it was it really. I think I mean. I saw trolls world tour. This weekend. when it was because they did the home released for twenty bucks thing and Which is very good music. Lovely message like animation those movies astounding they do all the physicality based renders that are just read and It opens with the twenty fifth anniversary of DreamWorks. Open like title card and I was just like Oh shit. Dreamworks has been around for twenty five years. That's that's amazing. Why Barry Sonnenfeld? That's what was bothering me. Oh Yes yes yes. Yeah you're from that on amending black right. He did he did and there. There is operatives. There was an interesting twitter thread that over the weekend of filmmakers an eighties and nineties had an unbelievable streaks in in their run. You know when you think of John Carpenter rate Ridley Scott and Tony Scott absolutely and not like terrence. You know because every one of his movies but they're very far apart like there's some filmmakers in the late eighties early nineties mid nineties. Who just every year amazing pieces. Something incredible yeah and I think bears auto fell is should be on a low. Get Shorty the men in black run. Yeah nabbed threat Where you're talking about the Alex Navarro Threat about a movie spun this. Yeah that was. It was a good thread by the way men in black is I maybe the only franchise in which I think. The third movie is better than the other two is the third one. The one with Just not Grodin Berlin. Berlin Broden Borough Josh. Brolin doing an amazing young Tommy Lee Jones Imprescia has the heart at the end and I think that one Rick Baker at is most powerful terms of all the creature designs. They threw in there. I remember I remember texting Rick while he was On working on that one and I remember when it finally came out I was like. Oh how is it? It's actually good. I so many films there was a there was a moment somewhere after the twenty one jump street movies were gone. When Lord and Miller were theoretically making a twenty one jump street slash men in black crossover. That was long rumored and like look Lord Miller. They did okay for themselves in the in the time after that. I'm fine with what they've done. The spider rest pretty good. I'd watch that again but I would love to see that men in black twenty one jump street. Crossover with channing. Tatum and and a John. He'll join a health thank storm. Yeah this is all feels like the preamble. I don't feel like we've gotten to know me. Podcast what are we talking about big? I want to apologize for being a little late to the podcast in the world doesn't know this but you guys waited for about six minutes. I was I got a some new parts of the Eagle Moss. Acta one and I was building out my So when I get a kit like that with all those moving parts I tend to build temporary storage for them so I can move them around and get them out of my way without having to move out of little tiny parts and pieces so training. Yeah so I was doing that. Getting Ready for the bill tomorrow because on the livestream. I'm GONNA or today. I guess people listening to this podcast today. Yeah I'm doing livestream at one. Pm and part of that livestream will be continuing vehicle. Boss Echo one nice. Yeah and this is one year weathering as you're building along which you did when you did the money and Falcon the Cassini Kit. No and you know. It's it's Kit Kit Eagle Boston laureate. I think I'd do it just as it is. Because it's beautiful in the weathering. I mean I actually might do really subtle weathering just to call out some details and make it look a little more scale but it would be subtle legally getting edges and stuff like that pop into a little bit better exactly besides all that. I've been slowly making my way through season two of Westworld to watch these three That's been Jeffrey. Wright is a national treasure who is who deserves more acclaimed for his excellent abilities as an actor and storytelling and Evan Rachel would go. Oh my Gosh de phasing since once and again yeah. She's been amazing since she was twelve. I don't want to spoil this. Because both those seasons and now in the third season it builds up to the last episodes having a lot of things coming together and and reveals and make you reevaluate the the scene so far but performance in the second season. I'm really curious when you get to the end. You like closely in Through okay okay. There are some actors and actors that we love that. When you re watch or by the time you get then we'll have to talk about their performance throughout this season because it's very conscious decisions they made and it's also a college play that I think is really interesting and I've actually have an idea about how to do. It are the are the blank figures walking around season. Two which are very like full body suits right there the layers. I think those are foam latex mom but they're super elaborate. Yeah complete full-body scopes that I'd I haven't seen this. What do they look like mannequins? Walking around or like like there's something there's something kind of hellraiser. They're all white and yet what they look like is connective tissue showing muscle underneath. Oh Yeah definitely nightmare. Fuel if mocked up in your nightmare you'd be like Shit got real not the anatomical models opening credits. Yeah we'd come to life okay. Yeah Oh norm. I want to tell you actually. This is apropos of nothing but I May I saw a bunch of new builds last week and one of them was. I fixed Something table saw and I had gotten a care package from. Tom Saxon one of the things I got from him. Who SAYS SO? I work for the bill and solidarity with CIA back in New York. It's awesome nice. Yeah but yeah. Let's do stupid from the from the program Cap Gina on Saturday night. We're playing board. Games are working on a puzzle or something and literally couldn't figure usually put a movie or something on it and we. We didn't watch movies so I just loaded up the first season of the good place and we accidentally watched the entire season of the good place which it turns out of is like it's the best thing like it is. It is so smart and so well done and even when you know what's coming it still is absolutely wonderful. We lost norm norm norms videos. Gone and also apparently has audio way. I'll be back hold on okay. Norm turned off the camera. I changed my angle. Whoa FANCY WOW The first that first season is a good place. I mean the whole rest of because I watched the last season which aired earlier this year. I haven't either I kind of don't it's one of those ones that like. It's stopped watching the west wing is I don't want it to end ever again my head. I want that show to be continuing. Norm disappeared again. That's fine only watching old stuff is that were you find the most comfort. No actually we saw that Let's see what went last night. Insecure new new new season of insecure premiered last night so did a new season of killing eve and also run which sleepy waller bridges new project also had its first episode. Premiere. Hbo released all the things last night. Apple Apple. Tv Open Up Apple TV plus to everyone last week. And if you haven't had a chance for all mankind is on there and it's it's it's not perfect but it's really neat and the costumes and props are really well done. It's absolutely lovely work. I gone on that. Yeah it's it's like look. It's one of those things it's like the man at high castle you're GonNa Watch the first episode of it. And if you like it you're GonNa know immediately or near like right at all the way down. And if not you're gonNA back slowly away and be totally okay with that too But it's it's like is obviously made with a lot of love and care from Cam for us from the from the artists that were on the props and costumes and stuff. So two people have now expressed to me an issue with wearing masks in public that I did not expect and roughly the same story And one of them is my wife who was walking down the street listening to a podcast on our air pods when she took her mask off. Basque kicked bolster air pods out and into a sewer grate. Yup that was pulsing literally white liquid like the impossibility of ever. Seen them again was immediately apparent that they were gone. And somebody else distracts me. I just lost my air. Fuck down sewer. I fired one during fire season last year. I was getting a Burrito or something on mission and when I took the mask off as I went into the shop I fired them. Both out into the street on mission and one went into the sewer. Great and the other one was like midway into the bus lane and Yeah we've made some more mass over the weekend and that was a conscious part. The thing I hate about making Massachu- bands right one ban low band and a high band. I like the high band pretty high around the back. The low ban we put snaps on there and so now it's no one ban and then we just snap it to like a respirator. It's likely respirator goes on to hook it. Around your like my respirator. Hook it around my neck and then pull it up over the top of my head and it kind of looks at the top of my head so easy snap. And then the top part slips up and it doesn't go 'cause manipulate with your ear. That's the worst part. I've been so the design that I followed for Mary. Robinson Cal Modification is that it's a single shoelace that comes up one side around the back of your head and down the other way so I put it on and do a little earlier and then tie it and it's really pretty comfortable. I I got a box of pg aging to decontaminate the garage right now I can cut some face shields. Prison friends who have muscles already said? Hey y'all you're on your own for the personal protective gear and like no man I got to recommendations for these guys sparkman. Tv shows I find TV. New shows are tough for me to jump in right now But easy to put ninety minutes to move one it's on net flicks Death of stolen hormone do bite and NUCCI. It's sink hooted. Veep and in the loop. It's right. Where a comedy Pierce lower satire about the death of stolen loosely based on what actually happened with the power grabs apple in nineteen fifty three. And it's hilarious. Sound like Light Light Fair. Yeah GonNa put it. It's it's the type of like ridiculous farce that I needed and then there's a movie on Amazon prime on the shutter network but it's a Japanese Zombie. Movie called one cut of the debt and I felt really tough to talk too much about this movie. Because there's a big reveal in it but it's comedy also comedy. Zombie movie and the first thirty seven minutes of the film is a single take. And that's while speaking of that. I watched nineteen seventeen again. Oh I still still doing it for you. Oh my God like even though the materialist tough I find not so beautiful and the performances so moving in feel so real and to be honest as as a filmmaker but you know as a storyteller in visual mediums that are filled with Jason's. It's hard for me to turn off the the button that wants to look for the cuts and so actually in successive viewings. I'm more able to. This is like the third time I've watched it. I'm more able to sort of give up that stuff. In Really Gloria how precise the pacing of the storytelling is given. They shot it. Completely perfectly linearly. It's bizarre the editor has said he'll they'll never reveal. How many cuts? But I wonder if overtime let's say a decade from now two decades from now some retrospective of they'll do a commentary or shown image of time line to finally show where the cuts are. I would love to see that premier time line for that for that film. Good Lord I mean yeah. It's amazing have you guys watch an-and pacalypse. The Zombie design be comedy from. I feel like it's skin. I don't know I don't really I. It's it's it's worth watching. It's really lovely and it's on. It's on one of the dreams ever since I can't remember which one but it's A. It's a Zombie comedy musical and it evoked buffy vibes for me. A lot of really positive ways all right so A bit of television every single night to sort of wind down and Well I've also been I think I've beaten most of the pistol whipped layers on hard. Oh you WANNA be on full throttle when it's unbelievable. The full throttle one. I still haven't made it through onto hard. I think I made it through on a medium but I discovered scavenger mode in pissing lip scavenger mode. Is You only have fifteen bullets unless you pistol whipped someone in front of you and then you get there? Is that one of the modifiers. It's a game and tried to add. It's really fun because it it takes like it took me a while to get up the nerve to do pistol whips instead of shooting people at that. Close them but yeah. My legs are getting really strong. Have you the sabre released a fitness oriented map last week or this week? That has its way more like work. It is intense on the legs. It's your ops. It has lots of obstacles. And you're ducking and dodging and bobbing and weaving and the whole thing I also find a box VR. Which if you haven't tried is like a it's like a boxing type workout thing that like. I did twenty minutes of that the other day and it wore me that warm. I were me out. Pretty good okay. My arms were sore the next day which I didn't expect without wasting so refined so. Yeah no you're just you're basically just doing like like like your balls flying at you give to punch the nobody wants you. Specific like crosses jabs and uppercuts and stuff like that and dodging. So it's more like shadowboxing the stuff that I've done so far icy gotcha yeah. It's neat though. I did some Lego over the weekend. Ooh I ordered. I didn't know this existed. Somebody doesn't like Kids Jones L. Lego launched us. If you're what if you're listening to the Audio I'm holding. It's a Koi fish and Lego technic sets that they launched on as a crowd funded campaign in two thousand eighteen form. This is on indie. Gogo for about thirty bucks and I had to buy it on Ebay for fifty bucks but how. It's an automaton grady. How is the skin just sheet of plastic that you fold over? Yeah plastic they and they launched it with different skins so you can find on Ebay but like there's a shark skin and different ones. This is the Coefficient. One says the so good this let's whiskers and it's their only official. Automaton that they've done so we've been we we did like. Oh this weekend to. We went through the pile of shame the garage that we bought a number built and did the Simpsons House which is incredible. It's so good awesome. Yeah it was. It was a fun when I think we're going to APU's shop next but but it like just as a thing when somebody needs a moment. We have the bags there. You grab a set of bags out you build for an hour and everybody helps helps you know. Idle hands are the devil's plaything or something. I can't remember what we should do. A spoiler cast next week. We should find a movie that we can all launch between now and next next week Maybe we'll revisit or new one but we can come up one that you've been itching to talk about or itching to watch tours to really really just. You're trolls world. Tour is going to change your life guys. Will you send a list? I love how Senator Lists. Yeah and we'll also put out there for people if there's something that they want to suggest that they wanna hear thoughts on you know they can post comments and we'll have six days to go watch it and then talk about it. I don't think we were doing spoiler casts for like their earlier. Mci movies where we do we do. We do a winter. Soldier spoiler cast. I think maybe we enacting talk episodes. It's it's enough to make for spoil. Can you think we're good okay? I think we're good. I literally. I just watched that movie about four weeks three weeks ago. Go to like safe spaces. Yeah that ragged rock. Yeah okay. Good a place as any. Yeah so good nose to say if there's a movie want us to watch and talk about and it's available on a net or Amazon prime That's the easiest way we'll also runs it No problem it'll be new But will announce it on twitter and on our discord. What movie we're GonNa Watch so you guys can wash too and then we'll talk about it. Excellent on the tech pod this week at Tech pod dot content that town. We had a friend of tested. Mike Mike on and talked about how old video games work. So we talked about. Like how electric's wizards turned cirque dumb circuits into games like pong all the way through how you own maintain arcade machines and like we talked about the end of CRT's and and all the way through to like fpg based emulators that can basically reprogram these FPJ. Emulators are amazing because you can buy thing for one hundred and fifty bucks that basically replicates the actual circuitry in an old console or arcade arcade machine Godoi and and so you get exactly precise emulation of the hardware that you then can run the software on and we went into that. He's he's on the board of the video game history foundation so they do Like they do preservation for source code and MATERIAL SURROUNDING GAMES. All that stuff. It was a really lovely chat that we have with. You can find that at ten on town lovely norm. What's coming up on the site? We got your builds so we actually are you earlier but Adam. You're generating a lot of awesome awesome builds and hope having fun documenting them. I phone so people can look forward to a lot of your Corinthian builds rolling out starting this week. I'm hoping to charge. Churn out a few more this week already. Cool all right now then. We'll see guys next week and we'll spoke cast. Then guys have a good waiting by.

depression twitter Norm Norman Adam Amazon apple DreamWorks Hauer Wilkerson France Gail Right Wil Wheaton San Francisco Elmore Leonard Jackie Brown Barry Sonnenfeld George Clooney Mci Mimi Leder Ri
143. Bear - I could kill you with my thighs

Made Of Human with Sofie Hagen

1:21:50 hr | 1 year ago

143. Bear - I could kill you with my thighs

"I'm half black and white. I'm the same way is a small adult potable just like stood him in noodle two minds for an hour and a half talking about his dogs. And you listening to made of women also known as the mole pod up podcast hosted by Sophie, thank and who is a Danish comedian law. Small. This is an interesting episode for many reasons I have wanted to speak to bear for own trying to remember at least I think I met them few months ago, it must be and must have been Manson month moments ago, and I was Bologne away because this is a person who is so interesting. So intelligent so full of just. You know, life joy life. Joy is a thing. And yet, someone who has met daily with just another. Difficult things process. So I was very, very excited that I got. So speech, a bath day, another reason is an interesting episode is at bear, the sided on the name. Like a minute or so into the puck as if they hadn't made that the session, I would've still called him by that assigned name. So I'm really happy to be calling there. Yeah, I'm in new castle. I have just done my, my Swoosh show here in Newcastle. And this is where I met up with bath as well. And we had some new cheesecake and. Yeah, just had a really love to chat. Again, you know, as always check the trigger warnings. It's yeah, you'll be able to see three that doesn't things I didn't want to push because I felt like if I had, if I it was part of psychology that I didn't know about that. I was I don't want to, you know, I don't want to push too high because I don't actually know how this works and I don't know if that was. Insensitive of me. Well, not insensitive of that was kind of sending of me, too. I know it's always a fine line. We've had some quite tough episodes. If you if you if you've not heard the Harriet Dyer episode yet that was another one that we really got into the mental health chat, and these conversations of really, really. The blowing my mind and I'm very grateful. Now I'm having them because I'm learning a lot, an very grateful to bath the forgiving me, that's hyme and but bringing me cake, it's now midnight in my hotel room and just speaking of mental health L. We'll tell you how a bit of my OCD slash insights, he works, so Jude, sue channeled hoods stuff. You know the one I, I had have issues with. Lacking, something like have issues with what if I don't have more of this thing? It's why my OCD makes me by out of the same thing. So I can't just have one, one of one thing you know, I have full pepper grinders at home. Because what if I wanted they run out of Pepe than, I don't have another grinder? It's this would kind of OCD thing. So. What happened today was because my train was a bit delayed. Everything was a bit rush. That's go from Liverpool to Newcastle. The trains were, but fact and then that's meet a bat, and we had to do the podcast and has it goes straight to my show. I didn't actually get to eat. Oh, is even it's because he wasn't that was been, so he's my breakfast on the train. But then I sat NIA a person who. Well, as you know, I have at this, I have this phobia, that's so bad that I can't say the word, but there was a person near me, who had something about the phobia. So I couldn't eat any breakfast on this for our journey because, you know, I it makes me sick, this phobia thing. So I couldn't I couldn't eat. I was hungry. When I arrived, then we had to do the podcast runs in my gig to do my whole gig in the signings and stuff afterwards, and buy them. My psyche is like you've not eaten. You will never eat again. You will never eat again and my brain is panicking going. You never eat. Again. What are you going to do never eat ago? So I went back to the hotel, and I looked at deliver ru and all the food was like fifteen minutes away. And I was like, I can't wait fifty minutes because you'll never either, what if it never arrives, and then I ordered room service really, really expensive room service. And I heard it to Dennis because it was like, but what if the curry doesn't? I don't know work. You'll have to have a backup plan, so or the curry and toasty, and I ate both. And then I ate some leftover cheesecake and now I feel too full, but. It's just like my brain. Just couldn't explains the people who don't have this who don't have something to why they. Can sort of relate to that. It's such a strange. Thing when you're like, well, I have to have. You'll have to buy all of the dinner, I'll have all the deal you have. Please because I might never eat again so things more I'm going to remember it goes to the hotel breakfast because. Because that's what a wakeup call. It'd be like, oh, yeah. Your brain can't handle a day with no food. God, listen. Good news about the podcast. I think I have found someone to help me with it. If you will, we already know Dave, my amazing editor, who edits the whole thing, puts the whole thing together and uploads. It does own of that, which is, you know, without without him, we wouldn't come out, and then I'm now getting someone to help me, find the guests and all of that stuff, because I'm just, I just don't have time my, my schedule this. Oh my God. I'm having all these nightmares because I'm stressing myself out, and it's just it's so not fun. So I am getting more help. So hopefully, you should be able to see a change, soon a positive change where wheels that coming out on the dates that women to come out again. Now, we will we will never released more than once a week. So don't worry if you are a patron you will. Never pay for more than one episode a week. But then the might be two or three weeks with no episodes and the three in one week. But that still means on average, it's still going to be one a week. And I'm keeping it within the month as well. So you you'll never pay for more than what's the maximum amount of Wednesdays in a month. Is it a maximum of five, but that never happens? Does it was like four episodes, a month thereabouts is all you live a pay then the old might be on the same day of that month? But. You won't pay more for my fuck ups, I will make sure if that now I'm still touring. I what it's have left up Bristol bristles completely sold out Bri. No. So not in Birmingham, and Leeds Exeter, Norwich, and London that I'm taking my new show, the bump swings Edinburgh, and hopefully on a tour after that sign up my new sets if you wanna be kept in the loop about dates and stuff that we releasing. Sorry. I got my other podcast secret so call was alive. Comey podcast about trauma and other stuff. Quist of daddy issues hosted by two non binary people. It's quite cool. Isn't it? And we, we also do live shows, you come and see us that we're going to nounce a lot of exciting new shoes in the next couple of weeks. I'd say. And what else you can still buy my book, will you can always find a book. I have a book is called happy fat, and you can buy that. Wherever you get your books. I guess it's a book about why it's okay to be fat. I also have to shows, you can buy shimmer Schatzer that baby frog on Soviet dot com slash shop five pounds each. It's filmed shows of my second third show, which one is about being anxious and one is about emotional abuse. I'm so funny. Now, I will let you listen to this episode with the incredible. I'm such a fan. Oh, I love them so much. Please enjoy this episode with the amazing. Tell me about your dogs. The new big vendors. We've got a free two hours bunny huanqiu, Jerry. She was Jerry off of Tom and Jerry. Pepper poppy, and then August. Oh my God. There's so many don't look free cats with a beefburger tasty burger because. Phil Mitchell, Monica. The block. He's actually next door's cat, but he comes in and like sleeps, house and stuff, and they call in kitty and he's booth. Comes in for his cotton in finished foods, and it goes up to bed them folks over the moorland. That's so many animals got by Rambo and shit. So those like full dogs for shits yet. She shot. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Of course, of course, because he's cool shadow which she's a bit shit name like he kinda shallow and then I'm gonna call him slinky because this stupid super long is like a meter long when he lies don't even notice letting nothing to him go like some schools in front man. She's got really big Robert legs. You know when. You know when my. It doesn't look like he should be his body. Does that make sense like he's all night balance? He doesn't know how to cow everyone. So maybe she maybe a rabbit big back there. I'm not. Yeah. His Angelis changed. It was going to call them shit shouts. Because he's always up to share. He's always in something. Eats. Everything of yours was many animals. Yeah. Yeah. Let you grow up, what, what was your well, maybe for people who might not know who you are? Do you want to just introduce yourself? You are. Okay. Okay. Good. Tara ole bat. Pathet that. Yeah. I like that. Yeah, bad. Because if you we've seen the Maimon, if I two baths, and it's like a panda turns into a panda. So there's a polar bear for bipolar and then pedia St. bad, which is a black bad smashes together. And it's like BP balls. What's the pizza is that is that like when you call the fresh and a dog? The black dog. I don't know. It might be actually you call the something's on black dog depression. So is there polar bears at a pet? And then the other bell is a just. Yeah. I did not know that. I like that smashed together. And I'm gonna go to the pound a bam half black. I'm white, I'm the same way is a small. Atoll potable. I'm going to be bad. That's gender neutral. What's, what's, what's your pronouns any any any? And then they're not shit themselves on ball. I call myself so in my show, I mentioned like the idea of having nieces and nephews. And then we I myself is unable because I do that with my friends in the babies as well. I like it. I really all gay. Yeah. Yeah. I've never in the bedroom mistress Mazda. Oh. Like. So much better. So let me just go back at signed bit. So you know this already at ten things one. So you. Beth bat name. I in my day for isn't on one from the Midland from the phone share what you call yourself. Activists influenza definitely not influence online personality. What would you start? Yeah. Yes. All is just but it's. It's so so you have an Instagram profile, which is a cold not secret. But luck private. So many people to sit in, like, in my follow requests. I'm like, I don't know. I told know who you know. No. No, no, no, no. No pop back up. But I'm not none the this, this is not for public consumption. This is my face safe therapy space. Do you think you'd allow some of the listeners them maybe people are very many? He's so nice that you have to have some message. We'll have they are. They will. L phone does love. Will you? That's very. I'm very RAD isn't it for like online? Yeah. Space, plus if you're like on public 'cause always like. It contains a lot of fine flash of Moore's naked. So look, mainly as excess white man like this all year. You'll so so dick by Akron, love, you better than your man. I have nine man and it's not one guy flow right now. Step up to the if you're gonna pay me that's fine. Alway all in friends that I've made follow you. It's such a good. None of them co free. Some of the thing, get free. That's fine. Oh, that's fine. I was like, you're not refunded. We talk about it. It's like, oh my God. I love this. Oh, it's so beautiful. It's just my diary loads of people. Oh, yes, what brands you bossa too. And like I. Nothing. I'm not here for my anything. This is just my life like, yes, it's weird. It is weird that so many people take an interest. I don't know if it's, it's a weird or is it do you not different if you want your, you'd want to follow you, right? Yeah. Probably. That's a good point. Yeah. So now I want to go back to the best so bipolar ban. PTSD to you have both how you both. Oh, yeah. Well, no, Monica person manic depressive when I was twelve before, go ahead. And go turn to pileup. I got that was like twenty years ago, and then I go dogma then they work for money depressive to buy Pyla, then they repeat day, then they were like oh, you've got older traits to somebody borderline personality disorder apart from the main chunk. So we're just gonna fry you into that. I'm okay. Cool like them. What we died really quite what you once conscious was like, just. Thank you. I wish hold up. Disagreed. Yeah. The. Yeah. Widowed roof not widowed. I've been riddled with mental health labels for the is what should type of PTSD I'm complex? I you don't pay any attention now, big purple folder, which since I was. Teenager, and he's just crammed. We've all of might like assignments over the is different therapists, as I conscious different the change. Every couple of years. With the now on. They're still silent bay day, but not fully an I still have mild effects of the others. But maybe not they don't know. They don't know because I'm not like. I have different personalities. By down have like I'm not crazy for schizophrenia. Even I like schizophrenia has not is a spectrum that you like they're like, on what we'll just put you might keep an eye on you. Yeah. It makes me eat pills. Small. So how does it manifest itself different personalities? Blackout switch really? So which are you comfortable talking? Right. So how because I imagine that, you know, I think when, when you should hear that you have all these films in your head about how is usually portrayed in Hollywood. Yeah. But how does it actually work? Never collection darts, how it works. If you don't remember wake up as a different person. And what you don't is their main, you may yet that issue now. So may now. My, my oldest is code of like backed off since coming to six months. So lucky it's quiet in my head's which is really strange because it's never been quiet. My like. Go. Had old from the age of eight so luck. It's never been. Always had like an array of different conflicting opinions of my mind. So we would that be like voices yet. So the best way to describe it. It's like you're in a car, you had car and some days you wake up in your new drive the C and United like Dylan's in the back home Wendy's in the Sergey the month locked up in the beep. It's wanting to get to your urine. Drove some days you wake up and you're in the bay and he can't see who's in the driver's seat. But you know the cars moving. So, like, I spend all day to share and then on, like, where did that week? Unlike? Yeah. It was it was bizarre. This Haiti wallpaper and a kitchen, right hideous? And she was like you picked that you loved you run into chair your bedroom. So it wasn't so gloomy anymore like Manal list that doesn't like pink frames. Glare and teams that well you what you did top yourself a week before three weeks before and just come on intensive hospital. So property was the test of curse. I probably wasn't thinking about the mom, you can tell you wolf piper dilutes, disgusting. I did not pick up. Winter shopping, everything you picked out took Amazon recollection. And then, like I went home for the first time in free is full years in the wool is. She's not you chose it. Let's have the conversation. Now it turns into wallpa- do you know what the Alta, I've got? I've got didn't who's like. He's about. He's about five to six little boy, loves everything to do transport like engineer in mud pies. Eat mount Donnie mother anymore. I haven't episode in that matter in a long time. How? Oh man. I've got Wendy who is like sixteen sixteen seventeen so she's a fucking handful like see the pink wallpaper. Yeah. Yeah. She's just she's, she's dick it. And then I've got my mind who never speaks it is, like pure darkness says. My most heinous members hold in him. And he never speaks, so, like sometimes I will blackout on like there was one time I jumped off in years ago jumped off Sunderland bridge humanitarian on impact did not die. No recollection of it on for hours in Newcastle. Like they took me to the envelopes to Sunderland then bust out with Sunland hospital like four days, light when I came back around went to my friend's house like a clock in the morning didn't know where I was while, because I'm not a mean consoled -able. I'm just like what the fuck why am I hatch ripple? My shit off on walkout without mom. Possessions. I'd like I have pockets full of prostate gloves much turned a doorstep. She was aware the Faulk of Yuban. She was the last time I saw you didn't speak for like twelve hours and. He wasn't you. Oh, so here's a little thing about me. Me say but let's see if I drink they switch it special to drink I can't drink now. It's one, I get like, you know, between gift fucking Yunan. I eat oh you can do it dying out for fucking dies on ends. And now I'm like, full parts from. Acid. Reflux. Drinking warrior, I really look three days after. Honey? Light drinks, the lookalike white drink for drinking for the, you know, when you're young in anything side, mix it one. We'll start all minesweeping. We take people treat flip side when you like eighteen nom. Let on. No, it's not a decent Jin. We've, we've learned not Anna won't Fru not having to another part of war in between. Am I still get her neither like you putty tell you then students? I feel it. So when I ever do get during I'm hung over. It's like I'm done. You can feel like you've had poison. It's like I literally filled my body with what am I doing? Why are we doing? Why do we keep that was saying? Every weekend about when I was a teenager. And I was very not fun person at the Patsy 'cause we need to have fun. I would like some shows. Who wants to die tonight? We would not have been. Oh, please. Maybe we should go home. Now this thing. Does it switch when you drink all just when you drink not wanna drag say, like it, just it depends? It depends. Just depends. It depends. That will set triggers the rule completely different, but they are all facets of me like. They just hold. Memories been built off the memory said where I have remember the name of it this, associative. I'm nesia. Oh, yeah. Goal it. Right. So luckily, so they hold some parts. So I. Remember, Betty anything of mine entire life growing up because of, and hold, it don't have the I remember seeing on the train falling off, like a little too, that was awesome. Offend upon and I had to wear. They'll get dragged out of it, because there's no saying for your child, and you could drown. Not about. All remember this and mutton I'm not sure stops asking. Do you know what it is that they remember, do you, remember it? When you're that remember it when I'm the wow is Clinton, which is the scary bit scary. But I mean. Yeah. I get. Yeah. I mean, there's a reason why they build, you know, films on it and stuff. But in a way it's kind of amazing. Isn't it that the brain, all yes to protect you? Yeah. Is like my head is so good at protecting me right to protect lap. Laps not never happen. Oh, my therapist told me about, I think it's cold primary PTSD, which is like an experience like, you know, someone's in a car crash. And then you know they immediately like, oh, I can handle it. I'm fine. And then maybe like six months on the line, they Sunday breakdown. That's like the primary like the and so mine is complex PTSD, which is so many tiny traumas. So many. This. Mess of trauma. So it's not like a simple. And now we've done it. Yeah. But she talked about. So I asked her if when you when you get the reaction that in prime OPEC six months later, if if it's always when you can handle, it does the brain. No way. Yeah. Exactly. Now, the ready yes, he was like, yeah. I mean, there's no they don't know enough about it yet. But it seems as if the brain is like yeah. This is so I think the brain knows what it's doing is just good. Yeah. Yeah. Like, yeah, we're going to wait all of this is not the time or. Yeah. Oh, found in the morning. When you registered. Okay. I was gonna I in the straitjacket wait for you in the Kona is probably ready. It's not comfort. Does come on over? You seem to be taking care of yourself like you. You Instagram st- keeps interim starts obsessed with. Is, you know, you're always on the beach in a bicycle by field and your with all these dogs not you. You know, I know you, you, it's not like you're like having a great time with your brain all the time. But it does feel like you know, yeah, I'm taking this summer off. Yeah. Yeah. Like I've apply for a job an ice cream partner on the C side, which is part time we've realized grade, it's just like my son's romantic as fuck. I'm going to have a full on some flame with myself. Just me the dogs and like cream. Okay. So now we're gonna talk about Mazda. Oh, yeah. So you said in the bedroom, your Masta. Yeah. So the story that you sold me. Well in my head, you told me, but I think the whole world in the panel, and I was on the panel with you. So you gotta dissects white how what happened what happened that makes it sound like. Is that what I mean? The origin stage. Does that? So. That's a Scott breaker hall. I, I was with somebody for years. And like I say funny, actually 'cause we really got a contract. Basically go back and contact with may. Unlike we're friends now, several years of past like we've by then he still wearing the clothes. I bought him nine years ago. It would no offense. For sure is not gonna have this. But if it does give him a heads up, by the way. Close. Listen to that. Yeah, he was I put on a little bit way. I was only smooth like a, smooth fire. I think I was like twenty I'll go up to twenty two. So I was twenty two which is fucking tiny now compared to what to phase now. And then yeah, he was like, you know, I still love you. I'm just not trucked to you, any more. Yeah. You'll face. Everything. Clenching stuff. What? Yeah, just mix, isn't it? Because part of us like old, they love me, but don't find me sexy. You know, you have the oh yeah, the first one years of my life, I would have that would have I would just be really sad, and I would, and now it'd be like furious. Yes. And you can kind of feel both things. So, yeah, you always used to say to me that women the size of our loved list of the other day, as women the size of houses out there, nothing. They got fucking gift. And you hold yourself underneath light baggy T shirts and stuff that you need to get grip. Like swirl yourself out our. Hey body. And then he said that it's just low just ruined to me and. Yeah. Now, he's less Lydon's dams trying to, but he's taking me. My friend is well, I was just like, oh, Dade United east to say that you had the women who let God's gift another size of houses. Well, that's exactly what earned into. Love it. So yeah, but you do not get to read on this fucking fun train again. No, no, no. So I feel very unusual reactions would be like to be empowered by being put down like that. You know what I mean? What I mean? Yeah, it is good. Good story, because like urines range of, and then he was prick. And then you immediately. Imagine the next step is yeah. It was very seven to lose. Another wait. And got you know, yeah, I did knowledge you know, it didn't even try it. I think I tried died, if today's most like, well, you know, the first one. And we let da is Dr he, which is normally how I feel like I'm dying on the diet. Whole family toy at the moment is hock in her Larry, yes. No boundary our for them. Insane. We'll see Creon and they use a MS of the excuse 'cause I'm still file. So they're like, oh, yeah. Tar wanted to go. And like. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, well, we up that cake by, boy, a boy, three sisters nor for me. And then she. Die from its sister in the same. This is ludicrous. Does it just remind you of like not reminded? It doesn't it. Yeah. Reminds me of how good it feels and not be part of that bullshit, yet another pupil. You can see the the desperation there is like calories. I'm just going to have this cake, and I don't know. Yeah. Because it's not there's no secret to it. Like once a drops one, some aren't eight seven Stein in, I wake so most of you around way. And I just moved more at less. I moved the law. I mean, I don't for like eight hours a day until I was exhausted. Wasn't how Fe but I looked good. To the world. But yeah, and that, like, oh, yeah bless them little protein, no carbs. So they live free may all what did you take? So we love. Had free time smooth. Oh. Dicing in order to become happy and it's fun. How you. You've miserable until you hit the target. And then sometimes you hit you talk it and you still get yourself because it was. The way. Nothing. Not because you fat like yourself. Go back to what happened then. All right. So then I wreck for little bit. And. I had lots of different partners and. Really? Oh shit real as good. I'm good. At what day unless you know, I've probably charged for this. And like knock out the fucking laughing at you drugs, when you not funny. You know, like so. Did. Oh, how'd you get? How'd you make that decision? How do you stop? Do you know for a lot of people that such a barrier between coming was my? Ridgewood. Yeah. I mean. Yeah, but like, I'm a hype people, but I'm a people people person one on one. I love people want to one I love getting tonight. Somebody one on one. Yeah, I'm a big fan of like short term profound connections live without compensation or. I had one of those early over lady, when of course in the verge guess, train station. Yeah. Nice to be. Then let you took. So how. No, no, no, no, no. Probably not yet. But that's more bugs. So it's like that, but yeah, I started off in actually I started off in phone. Oh, yeah. And then into thing. No so much. Was. Yeah. Yeah. Phone sex all the time lets you sound sexist. Feels excessive ninetieth stay. Seems very dated. That's what actually happens when you do that. Like what do you? So you sign up to accompany, you have to run free somebody else. Okay. The and coming. I mean you can't do it yourself. Don't have the monitoring and the Mike. If you I'm quite I'm lucky because, like I'm extremely strong and I'm massive account run, but like kill you move is so. I'm not I don't have any problem with me in new people because I never think, or are they going to hurt me, 'cause I'm like appropriately, hurt them and start all my exchange in dynamics, my instant safety. Whereas like if you're smooth or petite or like you have a conventional beauty conventional beautiful body say like a porn star. Some think you're my are true up to be submissive. And then my United men think that can do anything they won't leave you, these procedures because you want to, like, please the man there's none of that with being fat, and in the industry, because we, you can, but like it's just not mainstream, like they don't come to you. It's like yeah. Like, yeah, come in, because I've got particular face wherever it be cutting form or, like what cling film. Oh, is that what this is like anywhere could come anywhere? This is one of the way this across like ever hired. So I didn't do it blew me away. It wasn't even actually a work request. It was for dating up. Right. And he was listened journal come over to my house will web in-box little older, like one hundred pounds of pizza. Wait for it. And then we'll smear ever. So. We'll weapon bags and then Smith pizza all over the been back on our selves. Not only wanted to. Didn't wanna live touch kiss. No sex to sit in his house with him box and Smith pizza, and I was like, dude, that's blasphemy like. That's in sowing the even think I would want to waste pizza like that. I can sort of understand the been back thing. I'm not looking understand the pizza thing, but it's like the mixture of it. Yeah. That happened where that came from. We did carry speaking. But, like everybody, everybody has king of some soul, right? Like everybody's got a fetish, do you think that's my theory. Yeah, a lot of British people. Me to even know what it is a really good at pointing in. But like everybody does everybody has something like. Even if it's not, I think, like a say king can people think all my recession will kings, but it doesn't have to be more anything like king of cheesecake you. Yes. So you really enjoying gives you pleasure. So like everybody has a kink on not. Yeah. So if you sexually active will masturbate in a weather, and you pray switched on, you're gonna have a kink that's gonna be something you like watching like a position you like being in, well, there's like a certain things that gets them off, and that's what I would call a king for the most difference between a preference on the king, the people that have preferences in porn. But then, you know, when does that become do you know what I mean? Like to watch. Runs. When does that become when you always smeared with pizza? That from the. That will always stay with me, the Enberg mom because how so, so your sex work was dumb Domin. Yeah. Tricks. But not like I'm gonna piss in your mouth when you were going to call me mommy like I'm down for that as well. Some good friends, Mark. You still do that make a killer in this amazing. But suggest that anybody. I do I do. I d like, oh, I did body domain. So it's when you precipitately use your way in strength to punish somebody somebody, but drops. Yeah. Which is say, you would God you eat, like put mattress on the floor puff hours message you count, sometimes people do a heart. And then you run launch yourself on top of them and drop four way. Not I I'm. I'm twenty six enough another fucking somehow lost the stone. Very happy about it, my members like because I'm eating the same thing she injured. I you need to wait yourself, Australia in town, because your stomach Sarah mines non-nego. By the time I was like us pushing face down. And Trump willing is a thing do trampling just walk on that just walk on hand on the face, like crush Steffi that was one. Client, Oklahoma them. So and like just like stood on him in new doctor minds for an hour and a half talking about his dogs. There's nothing. Sex. What can be really sexual on sex work is just work. Yeah. So like. I. I don't have a persona when I do I'm just may. So, like if you've got stuffy, I wanna talk about your staffy for the hour and a half like you've got the money I'm gonna do you want me to deep? I'm also going to get worn out there. So, but so invited. Dumb in nature. Ix mode, you don't have a persona. Do you have a is there other types of that way, you would have to be like, you know, it's all mashing them all? Yes, some people do most people do I have like a persona that Steph into. But I'm not I'm do I'm not really mainstream. I'm not really I'm specialist because I'm fat so fat fetish, but like it's, it's really neat market, because most people that are into checks of like big size want you to be like, oh, I can't reach this. I'm so helpless possibly fooled. And it's all like soft coal innocent, go next stole kinda thing. Yeah. Is. Yeah. I know like super like I'm super vulnerable. I've got like you know, they got off some people get off by equal less mobility skills. Come runaway foster. Yeah. Fucking real dog shit. No on the go that I've always been the guy. And of course, you'll parents do not want you to interact with, and that's why I'm like, that's what was what it was like that because it's. Knife. But you kind cater you kind of you. Yeah. Fuck that they get enough the way it, it filters out the. Normally fills out the rooms like the ASO's I've never had Norfolk ation like never run into trouble. Not once I'm very lucky to say that, but that's because of a big black fat woman, and I'm six foot inhales. Like they normally. Don't try it. So. Retirement wax for me those those free things in society. Yeah. What he's feeling. They wanted you stop by one was when did you have you always been comfortable in your body hitting? I just said, when you so is assumed you always at all assumed it'd been dieting? No. I haven't been dieting. I used to diet but more but because like I'm staying with momentum and she's instead of no carpooled now, God or no good. So now so good. So I haven't seen the life of breading free weeks. Yeah. I'll have to get onto the tech picnics with myself, and so the beach call. Which I haven't told my mom because should be really pissed off because like Seattle, she wants. He wants to be around, because I'm wondering where you when you got into that, like how how you realize you didn't need to die them how under such such a classic that basic question. I always got is this? But how did you land to yourself? Yeah. Practice. Practice as if anybody's like. Oh, yeah. This will help you like this will make you love yourself that Lawin like the Yukon. Nothing about self acceptance comes from the outside world, nothing like his all from within you've you've already got the tools. You just don't know how to use them or you've been using them wrong, which is not said, everybody fucking we're used to like off, you use it like this, the needs by this famous but props casters, like how cannibalism cabinet. I'm found. Really? Yeah, we should eat the rich. Eight the Richard save the pool. Going. Yeah. Yes practice. It's the best of ice, I can give voice because people see for that, but talk to yourself like he would friends 'cause. Nobody has the some people do very rather. I like you just stop treating yourself like a friend could treat up like shit. You trees wasn't anybody else. When we'll do it and people find it really difficult, like it's such a foreign concept behind to yourself. So pretend you're being kind to somebody else until it crosses over. And then like, we've practiced the multimedia it and then you can catch yourself. You can hold yourself countable for stuff while we'll watch on a do them. I'll have to do that because I've always. Like people still have voices in the head. You still got your own voice in your hats, and sometimes the voice, you think you is your mother? It's like old height. You've collected way comments and glasses. Glosses glances, and bullying and like lovers pointed shower when your body off the sex, and it's old of that condensed, an and magnified. Awful my therapist sets a pretend it tape recorder, so it's not a commentary on the now. It's just something that would have been playing anyways than just adjusted itself to the. Yeah. You know, so if my mom when I was a child said, you know, don't run you can fill in hat yourself. That means the now I'm on a bus and the vice will say became full that someone behind you might stop you in the neck. And then you had to go hold on. It's not about is that an actual piece of advice about the current situation because they probably won't. So because it's playing something from the past, and you can go click. Yeah. Not applicable. Scale right now. It's up a fucker for your input bright, but pause. Yeah. It's just it's just practice. Talk about democracy. I'm telling you, there's a bit off. This is the thought of him about twenty four hours. I don't think I think we need to give up and democracy. I don't think I'm just, I just don't believe in it anymore. People don't I just don't think so. I don't think I guess it's not it's not working. It's not working. It's not working. So winning and then not meant to win. It's yeah. People don't know what they want. People are more rooms, if you don't know what that was fest for them. People people don't about lower Osama, such dictators. I know what's best for the way we do. Yeah. I mean I was considering if I should have been be more. Diplomatic and my wife saying this, but no. Me because I'm not clever enough. There will be people out there who are so educated on social, Justice and equality and oppression. And how to dismantle that will be people out there, who superclub who've done all this reading, who will know exactly how to build a whole society. Maybe a little group of people who can what's known, like, like a government, except not. Yeah. It's a bunch of experts in little group, and they're all special wing. Yeah. The only have the right politics and the main goals everyone's be super happy, and comfortable. And that could wake. But not if, if people had to vote for them. Oh, yeah. 'cause never do them. It hit in the back going everyone. That guy for some reason, you know, a genuine believe it anymore. I don't think it's a good thing and it's not democracy. It's not equal. No, it's not. It's mom. Yeah. I. It's no I say controversial, I devote that is controversial. Because people are like is like, well, you come bitch about if you don't changing it, but then, like I strongly believe as on what's her name Lord or second name is on Lord. I said, you can't dismantle the mosses house with the most tools. Yeah. So like. Dob one bite Michael the difference. But it's probably not gonna make a difference in what I want to see the change in the world. Yeah. Yeah. For that. If it's sometimes I will if it's real like England's in the shit. Right. The UK the fucking trash bond. We're not try spun a trash island flowing in the pump. Allies you country. So, like, yeah. As I say, unless people, I'm God. How can you be like an activist? And you might well, no. You said there's an activist. I never said that. I'm just the person. She says she's voting thing is like, you know how when you when people tell you about house raise children. They're always saying well to and men actually they always saying give them two options than they think they have a choice. So you'll say what do you want for dinner? Do you want pasta arise? Because if you just what you want to know they'd be like ice cream. Yeah. You so they're like, oh, and then they feel like they have made the decision. When actually you've just got him. We're like, no, no. But we've, you know, it has been fair. We have had chances is something we didn't know we actually have. Yeah. And it's it's always like politics, quite often miss so you will politicians Misao, but, like you can't play a new client mufti, like most of people are now who probably Brexit it's because they believe it was on the fucking side of a bus. You need to really source check like that was my main those reasons. Think democracy thing was people don't. Yeah. So they don't have. So that's I feel like the social media and just the world basically for so long has been right. Wing pricks who've been like saying, outrageous things. You know, the horrible things don't want repeat being like Trump saying, Mexicans will build the wall all these things, and then all the lefties will come out with a fact from the science, and that will actually this is how things at what can actually be, you know, actually being fat isn't necessarily unhealthy opiates, the immigration is actually good for a country or in, you can't make the Mexicans pay for the wall. Yeah. You know so, like actual facts, and we kind of expect that to what we're waiting for them to go. Oh, I haven't see they've not done that. And now they're organizing themselves, and we're still going. But factually, you're actually wrong because actually that. A holocaust education actually, again. And they'll go, yeah. So. We're like, well, then we'll go and vote and maybe that what that will do something. But will it actually just? And there was a second. We need to something else out used to do something else to make to actually make a but human sky around in circles, we just Avante a little bit better. So do you remember those toys, you used all use them as toys? But that's my. I have a horrible relationship with just like man. I don't like it. So. You put the pencil in the you'd look into Lekiu mechanism Neutra circle around. So like often see human rights like that. We're like in a little circle and then we'll move along with improved a little bit. But all they just coming round full fucking circle. But in little circles. I mean it looks like a pretty prime that's a little bit pointless. Yeah. We can try but like this, who's just, and then eventually it's going to hook up because nothing ever really intervenes, like knocks, of course system. So it's just always a that's enough. Settle goes you seem despite based like literally everything. Yeah. Yeah. Wiz, because I went and spike body confessed evil a couple of lumps. We'll point my God. The star this month rice. So I'm gonna time couch, we see, but fun. Defy the last mile. God, imagine the month feeling like a couple of months. Oh. A windows beginning this month. Jesus. Yeah. People that wanted to like, come up and everybody wanted to peace me off is really fucking old sensation like Wade, Fink experiments and. One lady was such a great inspiration. New speaker them like. Not that. She was like, yeah, you just you just like make everything like you say, I'm faking like everybody else is thinking, or whatever she said, yes. She was like you, do you have faith with a second question. I'm an Audu monopolist. She's like what you're inspirational speaker. And you think the humanities pointless, what? Yeah. You love yourself. Make the best of it. But it's true. It's true. Yeah. I defend were plight myself included is an all the people enough, so it doesn't mean nine nine listen night. Neil ISM Neil Neil ISM. It's an it's it means that like. Human life is pointless. Basically. That we have no purpose. Or. Yeah. Like with. That's what I've from it. Yeah. This is so interesting because I feel like most people almost all people are looking for peppers and reason all the time. I think that's why in control at prediction. You'll life has no, meaning if it doesn't have focus, let. Yeah. But then how, how do you. Embrace it. Galvin. 'rational. It was such an inspiration, just go. It's just a. Yeah. But my of this, I was six, my mom while the main in the life was, we was in a playground on the roundabout McGaw and on his men in life. Dead in the only. And the C stumbled over worth for seconds was just what you want any sandwich. Let's go. There's my point and the like. Like if you can't tell me while we're here, what you want any some, which that's kind of been month up, what I wanna miss much simple question. Do you want in your sandwich? Proves. Oh. Like to per Prins prone salad. Yeah. Do you ever had a Danish prone? Sal. Good. Oh, it's so good. So let on Christmas moons like. Have pulled pie and. Pokou tone. Yes. Let's stop fucking. Out today about feasting from like second. I wake up to the second poss- up. Therapy. No have you been? Have you ever been? Yeah, I recently went not recently went back are asked in January, and I said needed to rework some shit. Be reminded of carpeting, typing mechanisms and kind of fresh advise on that. I went to the one I went and shame one organization who Pacific -ly. I suppose to specialize in my condo trauma trial to trauma, and that they were like oh, we think you're too so for wet benefit from the service. That's not one. Oscar full like I've list. We put down on this piece of paper, the things I need to gripe free with, with a fashionable because I am. No. I never like on get yourself away like to switched on to benefit from any of the services. So I just skipped. Yeah. I know. What? The should was like the other option fears in crisis if I'd made the temple my life, then that's not me up. Well, I'm not gonna make an attempt on my life side. Will pop ways, then I guess I'll keep reading. Does that make any sense? Can you be 'cause I'm extreme self web? But my therapist was just like when she picked up on that. She was like, right? That just means I have to tell you what I'm doing. So she was like instead of just being like so draw this do this. He'd be like. So the reason behind this is his neuroscience. Oh, this is the technical reason behind this, and this is the history of this particular kind of practice. And that's why I'm not gonna do that. So you know exactly why you're doing it. You know what effect, it has a new and, you know, and I'm yeah, got it. And then I can still do it because of the Iran is I don't not like it doesn't stop. It's just mix me. I need to be on her. Like I need to be. I don't like doing something. I don't know. Yeah. You need to you need to be clued in. Another type of. Yeah. Like a the furthest. Yeah. Sorry. No. Okay, member a disco. This like. Yes. So. That's no. No. Yeah. It's good in the way that it doesn't mean that therapy wouldn't help you, you just it position. They've put you in the studio position could pay for you. We could help and that's bullshit. Yes. Yeah. But like around the system. The money. She outs to my life doesn't empty my Bank account. The NHS you have to be CPA fucking crazy. You're never crazy enough. So, like you get all the how when you get like a team of people. If your own crisis. So if you've made a serious, but didn't have any attempt on your life. I'll give you a crisis team. The more temps you. Michael me to the big. Of course. His team becomes I've the yes, but if you made countless medical records, so vessel fucking, it takes a while for them to shifty meant that lose your medical records, but takes a longer for them to come up. So I haven't. I've been up here for eight months now and I've not left my doctors from the Midland's. I registered the whole I did. I was that. I went on Plymouth when I was at Uni I registered at the unit business fucking Botoco. I'm going back to my family doctor, and he's like wherever you in the Cashman area. What I'm actually four hundred miles out the Cashman area right now, but consider not swear. I'm registered to vote. On will we ever this phone? Way. Dr. My just give up. No, it's not typically breaking the law. Look, I am registers in the dress in that catchment area. That's. This is. But yeah. I mean it's not at all the same thing, will you sit in the village of. Yeah. They do. I don't know. I want knows as that got drugs and that before and then kept being drunk to my appointment the next day, and I it with him. Family. Hey said I am. Thinks. I see when you drink I suppose, this is the check. Oh, like I'll put you into. Oh, yeah. Wasn't. Done it shouldn't have done that to say that's mother. Oh, thank you. Mesko numa. Money's not. So, right. Pretty the question I was asking this, which is what would you most want me to ask you? Nothing because people knowing about me. Oh, really? Our girl. I'd like to I. Yeah. I. Yeah. I'm not really alike. Recently turned on ABC. Fatu. I was primetime TV wholeness of Jack to fawn. Because like two hours is too long. Like people invest in you as a person fucking hate that. I don't want anybody to invest a main, we should be invested in house. Selves, like, none of that would be my honest answer. Did I read more Iskoe today? I didn't. Okay. I don't know how much holding arm quest. Yeah. I have one of those no nothing about its scope. You owe Scorpio five is file this far as I know so shit. The memes. I think that like on either mounting guys this stub really practical. Practical tools a lie. Maybe horror, scrapes, like a. The very, very got me. Luckily, used to read my arse guy from oh my God. Yeah. This is me on a trial relate some life. But like the most pep talk. Yeah. Like this weekend. It's the skull peo- moon. So you might feel crazy. When I guess, I'll be like it's. It's not the complex trauma. The childhood stuff. It's eight fouth. Okay. So the last question they always ask on spec us which is. In the delivery room. Okay. And you have just been bone. You're holding tiny bath. Yeah. This point named Tara. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Tiny tower and best crying crying crying crying because it's very, very terrifying. Like they've just been in the womb, and that was like, oh woman dock and lovely. And now they've been bone and like what the fuck is this is lights and sounds everywhere. And then looking at you going like this is life. This is what the next study one. Yes of last going to be like, it's going to be like, lights and sounds and people everybody. That sounds horrible looking to you. And you can answer that question. What is life going to be like you can't give advice because you can't change? But you, you know what the next study one years of tiny baby. I was I was gonna look like so what would you say to teeny tiny, baby? You don't do it. I, I was actually stayed in for an extra month to six weeks or did no one come out. So I understand why now, looking back at it made way, one you go constant supply food. It's warm daft pay rent. Right. Exist in warm, real bubble of love. What I say. It's gonna be really fucking difficult, but you'll get from it. Publio elected sites a maybe. Olga how efficiently. Times when I'm Ava? Todd was my signs name. At least second man, because it's slave. What? Yeah. Excuse me. You say what? No, none. We did watch. Does he put it up? I didn't I to tell you. So that's stupid. Because you'll second missile was given traditionally, like in the guy and stuff, western society, you'll name is given to you by among, who's always given to you by another man, and then, like you marry somebody and in any take your married. Typically man. To-to shit bullshit. And then, like you marry them and then the mind gives you that name. So I'd like is this appropriate name? So don't use most. I'm not proud of my family very much awesome son. I'm like, that's not the point. That name's never been long even my mum's maiden name never belonged to her mom's maiden name never belong to what was been assigned them like. Men, my paycheck. Busa nobody thinks about that. Like what did you major us a second? 'cause it's like slave name wall. Whoa. Whoa. What's never assigned this never anything that you've actually owned this'll? This is something that's given to you by someone in power. Penis. Maybe just. What you just second bath. Just bad just been. Loan, my mind, you sometimes still needs to be told that it's going to be difficult, but you'll get through it. Constantly Thomas off. Yeah. Knuckle down knuckle down. But like you'll get you do you do you get everything you get forever like you do get sometimes it takes time. I. Because I. Recently got dumped I have a Facebook after really serious relationship and then they refused to speak on the fine because he did that in cry. So we took on and. Mom was we'll come on. No. She's got. Tom is only a Hilo because the human members shit. I'm we actually forget. And that's what makes it Bo shave luck. Well, when you go on six months on, you'll feel bad way, like, yeah, I will. Let us go to the bait. All right. Yeah, it does get you. You do it. Really could resilient stuff. And then yeah, well brains. Good brains up. Yeah. What is good? No brains good, not necessarily people. Thought isn't brains. By Defoe, inherently could. Thanks doing this as okay? At this point, I would ask someone pluck this stuff. But do you wanna do that? Do you just not want to be found? And not gonna pick myself. I'm going to get so many people ask. Oh, so, you know. Well, yeah, I can say my Instagram, but doesn't if you'll get on. That's nice. I really like impelling like no well, no. Because most I space like the shit that we have this group for the for the putt cast. Yes. Answer three questions to get in and the quite. Particulars of this, like. As one has proved I've listened to the podcast. It's like what's your favorite these favorite bit? Just they can say, listen to it. And then this, this questions like are all meant trash. Can you say yes to this all Minna trash, all white people racists? There's no thing as thin shaming nothing one mole. And then that's why you should people fail. And they'll go, no, I do not to generalize MC. No. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Something like what do you do to like fix your own privilege? And I own up, how do you what do you what do you do to change? Thanks. Yeah. That's like people quite good people. A thousand things I did this, this and this, but it has to answer all the questions, don't get in that skits. Even though people sometimes have really good. The first two, they'll the, the first and the last one, they won't they'll fail in the it'll be like, yes. But I do think sometimes then people have. No, not out, this not necessarily, because I'm like, yeah. It's the right kind of present to get in. It's just that it's such a nice space right now. And yeah, yeah. You know, there's no reason to make it. Yeah. It's been exclusive space of people who've get it. It's not. Yeah. You can you can try and follow me found five year. Such brick. It's my IRA. So like my on my. On. Was this your fucking mental just down five hundred followers? It's not about that night. It's my fucking Dr. Okay. Oh, thing Hugh full listening as always. If you go to patriot dot com fought slash MO pot. MOH PD, you can him ask bath, the additional questions, which do you have any practical advice? What's most bears thing you have ever done? What's the stupidest thing did as a teenager? What do you wish people knew about you? What is an unpopular, opinion of yours? And do you have a recommendation music at book, anything? And what makes you happy those additional questions that I ask every single guest after the we finished the recording and they're all uploaded to patron just for the people who support the puck casts. If you wanna hear that answer the additional questions on any of the previous guests. I mean, we have not done this whatever. So it's only limited amount of guests, but. From now on. That's going to hit your inbox when they do wanted to release them. Now you're tell you go. And thank bath social media full that contribution. But as you could they would like to be more or less anonymous, which I competed respect because the stories pass, and I would still trying a message Timpson monas- message on Instagram and try and see if you can be part of it. If you feel like it, because it is life changing, it's great. And it's enough that I wanted to speak on this podcast. So I can recommend that if you don't get let in, I'm so sorry, this whole thing must seem like such brag. Now I'm gonna go because all ready waffle on too much in the intro. So. Because I'm going to be packing, because my OCD is flaring up, so probably to repack my bag about eleven hundred times before I feel like it's old ethic and ready for moral. I think part of the anxiety in OCD thing happened because I was woken up at four AM by the fire alarm in my hotel in Liverpool. And like my instinct was to go try to go back to sleep. Even though it was the loudest thing it was so loud. So then I was like, oh, it'll stop soon. It'll step -ssume that didn't stop. Like rushed out of bed, and like my pen in my instance, to put on a bra. Imagine if I died because I was like no one can see my nipples imagine that one of us. Oh, god. The patriarchy kills doesn't that put on a bra put on a jumpsuit and left my room and. Just everyone was just like in the pajamas. And we went outside, and just for half an hour while the five the Putman came and nothing was wrong. There's no fire. Anyway, it was just someone someone had been cooking somewhere. So I think I could just feel my whole body and my brain was like, oh, we can never relax, again, because we never know when a fake fire might erupt, and we'll you're going to have to be outside amongst people all of a sudden. So I think it was just like, and you live eat again, and you have to pack you back correctly and everything is horrible. That's fun. We'll be fine. Now, thing is every single person who is donating to this podcast. I am so, so so so proud of you. I'm so proud that I have people supporting this. You have no idea. I'm current in on these meetings with different. Produce os and the bullshit, you have to go through to get any kind of program anywhere in his show. Anything commissioned on any Pat foam them out of people, you have to talk to convince and right pitches and just so glad I'm doing it myself with you with the help a few people. I'm so so happy. You're part of something, you know, you're part of this, and I'm it sounds all Winky and stuff. But I feel this is such a great thing. It's such a great STA wrecked go straight to the assest. It's luck. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. The one off donations that always means a lot. And thank you to all the people who come to my shows that's the best. Thank you for buying the book. Thank you. And if you a patron, and if you give more than so you can go to patriot conflict has moment amid Pugh d you can declare what you wanna pay per episode Digby, a dollar two dollars five dollars settles. Whatever then at the end of the month, it'll calculate how much you owe and then we'll just like deducted massively, and you're just. A monthly supposed to an it's great and it helps so much. If you get five dollars a mall and you choose to be a friend of the podcast. You get your name out loud at the end of the episode which I will do right now. So huge huge, huge. Thank you to and three appellant. Andy Walker actually salmon awesome. Blue sky berry notes and Caitlyn cat post say cherry win. So I think that's a new one isn't down account. And kind of Donovan Danny Becker, Daniel RAFI. She's Daphne thing, Eleanor Appleton Emma, Chan that's to Emma's Fennell. Don privacy is so our Aurora, Sarah tops Fiona, Richardson. Hanna Hanna rose. Tristram trysts, trim herliman, Harry Minna, Heather Watson, Hugh news. I think you knew Helena's HAMAs either go last inner ellings janey Mahoney Josie. Kathleen, glue Monson Cadillacs valor, Katie Hatfield between the English. From catchy Katie Travis. Oh, yeah. We had the issue with that many cats to figure out, you roll your own group, or if we could because we have this competition where we're trying to who whose name is most represented, I'm going to get back to the cats. I'm not really sure yet. Kim williams. Cousin Davidson Queen C Lillian, Harry, French this time in dinosaur. One sees. Laura Frei cements me, and Megan rub its post Waddell, perpetual motion, PF, Rachel himse, Rachel, even Heim racial thirty racial Phillips, that's four Rachel's rates. You'll in the lead rack doll rubber nose rubbing, Cava Sarah, fair, I could sit Sarah L at Sarah, plume associate Tyler Victoria Layton. That's still three service. Catching up on the right shows who else do we have new people have ten have Daniel, and Danny is same as to MS. We have herald in Harry the same sit within all the cats. I was on, isn't it? Kathy Keeton, Casey cats Casey to katie's and then a Kathy feel like we can was interesting. Isn't it? Ooh, that's a group, isn't it? K to the ni- case with a Y and then Kathy all with a K. I'll have another thing, right? Thanks so much for listening all the way through I know of offering on quite a lot. But you're the greatest people and you make very happy. That's why I'm now recording this. When I should be asleep. Well, I'll have begun. I'll never eat again. My brain does, like, but you wonderful listeners, thank you, so, so Sosa so much support. I hope you have a great week, we'll speak soon as I possibly can. We will get it all sorted. I'll be back on track soon. I wanna thank the amazingly patient and great Dave Pickering for producing this episode, so Harriet brain for writing and recording jingle and Celinda bring us for the logo I look logo. Species soon. Bye.

PTSD Newcastle OCD Mazda Midland Jerry Trump Michael Bristol Liverpool Sophie Wendy Manson Harriet Dyer Pepe Dennis Quist Instagram Dave Birmingham
How Psychiatry Turned To Drugs To Treat Mental Illness

Fresh Air

48:29 min | 2 years ago

How Psychiatry Turned To Drugs To Treat Mental Illness

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Texas am university, where researchers are learning how virtual reality devices could help students who struggle with public speaking exile. Learn how aggies help students at fearless front dot com. From WHYY in Philadelphia. I'm Terry gross with fresh air today. The search for biological sources of mood disorders and schizophrenia and for drugs to treat them. We talked with an Harrington about her new book mind fixers, which tells the history of psycho pharmaceuticals, including Prozac zanex, the new anti psychotics an earlier drugs. Like lithium the first drug to treat manic, depression, unlike all the other drugs, it wasn't invented the laboratory, it's an element. It's found in the natural world, but it has side effects Harrington will also tell us why pharmaceutical companies appear to be leaving the psychiatric field also marine cardigan reviews Janney. Scott's memoir. The beneficiary about growing up in a wealthy mainline family in Philadelphia and linguist Jeff number talks about the word socialism and its place in current political discourse. The search for a biological understanding of mental illness and coding schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression, and panic disorder is the subject of the new book mind fixers by my guest and Harrington. She writes about the revolution in medications to treat mental illness. And why it's left behind what she described as an unsatisfactory legacy of over diagnosis over medication and promises that were unfulfilled Harrington is professor of the history of science at Harvard and director of undergraduate studies in the history of science. She specializes in the history of psychiatry neuro science and other mind and behavioral sciences for six years. She directed Harvard's mind brain and behavior initiative and Harrington welcome to fresh air. Let's talk a little bit about depression and antidepressants. I I think the real game changer. Here was probably. Prozac in the nineteen eighties that became a usually popular drug, and what was groundbreaking at the time when Prozac came onto the market. So the irony of Prozac blockbuster success was that its manufacturer eagerly didn't really expect much from it. So pros at goes on the market and because it's been framed as safer people start prescribing it. General practitioners and psychiatrists are prescribing Prozac over other brands, and they also start prescribing it to patients to whom they might previously have hesitated to prescribe what would be perceived as more dangerous tricyclic antidepressant. So the market for this antidepressant grows in part because the patient pool to whom it's being prescribed grows enormously and an important subset of that patient pool. Our patients who previously might have been given a prescription for valium. So why does the patient pool grow? Well, because patient there had been an enormous market for anti anxiety, medications and valium in the nineteen seventies became was at that point and like nine seventy eight I think there was something like two point two billion pills of valium were sold them one year. It was the best selling prescription drug of all time in the nineteen seventies. And it was an anti anxiety medication. But then it turned out. It was addictive people. Couldn't get off it the market for the benzodiazepine Clements. But where are these people? What are what are we going to do for these kinds of patients? Well, it had long been known that one of the symptoms of depression softening Zion. And so became possible to think, well, maybe these patients who were previously being diagnosed with anxiety and facts offer from depression with a cute. Diety presentation, and maybe the antidepressants will help and they did. And so you've got, you know, the expanding pool of people suffering from depression. You've got the emergence of depression, in the way, we think about it now as the common cold of psychiatry you've also got a development in which there's a collapse of a previous distinction that the field had made between forms of depression that should be treated medically and forms of depression that were seen to be neurotic or reactive that were caused by bad stuff going on in your life. And that it was widely thought should therefore be retreated treated with talk therapy. But if medication helps everybody, then maybe these sanctions, some say aren't so important. Maybe what's more important is the severity of the symptoms, and at some point the symptoms of severe enough medication might then be you choose to prescribe a patient SUV got a lot going on there. Got this. This new drug Prozac that's supposed to you know, address depression, you've got patients with anxiety who are being re categorized as having depression with anxiety as a kind of side effect of the depression. They're getting prescribed Prozac to and at the same time. You have new literature coming out like listening to Prozac the bestselling book by Peter Kramer. That asked the question, you know, like Prozac is so affective, and it's basically remaking people's mood and mental health and changing them. Like, what does that mean? If people can be changed by pills. Even if it's changed for the better like existential me better in the long run. How active was Prozac or is Prozac the huge developments that happened in the story of depression in the antidepressants is happens in the late nineties when a range of different studies, increasingly seemed to suggest that these antidepressants, although the helping out of people they seem to be helping a lot of people when compared to placebo versions of themselves don't seem to do much better. And that is not because they're not helping people because the placebos are also helping people that simply thinking, you're taking Prozac, I guess can have a powerful effect on your state of depression. Daughter though for a drug to get on the market. It's gotta be placebo. If it can't be placebo, the drug fails. And so I think the whole SS arise story. Because of course, there wasn't then just Prozac. There was then Paxil, and there was all off there became a whole family of these drugs. They're all on our off patent. And I think that the world of anti-depressants has also looking for some new novel chapter. I think it's also hit a kind of standstill. Do you think those drugs are getting prescribed as frequently or perhaps more frequently than they were in the eighties? When Prozac was noon was seen as in this like groundbreaking drug. There was a glamour moment, we became a Prozac nation. Peter Kramer, contributed to the I think unintentionally because his goal was actually to be rather critical rather than celebratory of what he said were projects effects, but he implied that Prozac was a drug that not only normalized, but enhanced and that therefore we would be seeing people taking these drugs not because they necessarily had a diagnosed disorder, but because it would give them an edge or if their mood or help them they come the kind of person they would prefer to be. And he said, you know, we maybe we're worried about this. Maybe we don't like it. But let's not be naive. This is what's going to happen? And we need to grapple with it. That was his argument, but it was taken to be a kind of endorsement of a kind of legal street, drug culture in which people are on Prozac for trivial reasons or. Or for hedonistic reasons, or for professional, advancement reasons. I think we're past that moment, I think people still go on Esser is I think there's a more sober in general sort of set of calculations that are undertaken, I think people are more aware of side effects and the difficulties of getting off long term use in writing about the biology of mental illness, and the drugs that have been created to address it, you write some about the marketing of those drugs, and let's look at one of the really successful marketing campaigns, and that would be for X which was approved by the FDA in nineteen eighty one and that coincided with the end of the diagnosis of anxiety neurosis, and the addition in the DSM of the diagnosis of panic disorder. So. How is an ex marketed to tie into this new diagnosis of panic disorder. So zanex was originally going to be the next generation to valium. It's being tested and developed a several decades before it finally gets FDA approval in the interim the market for drugs benzodiazepines valium, largely collapses in the interim the disorder for which patients were being prescribed valium. You know, neurotic anxiety is deemed to no longer be valid diagnostic category. The DSM comes out. And so now you've got a drug maybe as good as value may be better than valium. But whatever it is. It's a benzodiazepine, and it doesn't have the diagnostic category for which it was originally developed doesn't exist anymore. But in the DSM there are other new forms of anxiety that are meant. To be more targeted that are meant to slice and dice more precisely the spectrum of anxiety forms of anxious suffering that people suffer from and one of these is a disorder that most people had never heard of called panic disorder. And there had been previous arguments and research suggesting the panic disorder has an biological substratum that it's a genuine medical condition distinct from the forms of anxiety that the cycle analysts and news to see where that the GP's used to give patients valium for originally. It was felt therefore the depends are they weren't effective on panic disorder that you should give them anti depressants. But the makers of zanex needed to sell Fanta fanatics, and they therefore took a second look at the possibility that their drug might be effective for panic disorder. Not be. Because they didn't think it was going to be more effective than say valium might be but they needed to sell Xanax, and it is effective, and it gets approved by the FDA as the first targeted medication for a disorder that most people had at that point never heard of called panic disorder and part of the marketing of all of these efforts to target often older drugs for new disorders is to educate or tell people about this disorder that they've not potentially ever heard of persuade them to wonder whether or not they might suffer from the themselves and persuade them to discuss that possibility with their physician see you had mentioned that the market for valium had collapsed before the release of zanex. Why was the market for valium? Collapsing because the during recognition that benzodiazepines were highly addictive. There were a number of very high profile kinds of cases, including Betty Ford. The wife of the president of people who. Owed publicly couldn't fess that they were valium addicts and needed to go into rehab, it became perceived, whereas once drugs like valium were seen as kind of no more dangerous than having a pick me up Cup of coffee in the morning. We're seeing a dangerous drugs as addictive drugs is an addictive than valium. Who'd question, I don't know because I'm not a clinician. But I can't say that. I, you know, you are now beginning to see some of the kinds of conversations about drugs like Xanax that you saw about drugs like valium forty years ago, or so let's talk about bipolar syndrome, which has its roots as a diagnosis in what was called manic depression. So what is the difference between manic, depression and by polar? Are they the same thing just renamed or are they two separate diagnoses some people use the term more or less interchangeably? The term manic depression was widely used until the nineteen eighties to describe a form of mood disorder that classically involved cycling between experiences of great agitation or elevation and moods of great freshen in the nineteen eighties. The term bipolar disorder was swapped out in the DSM three four manic depression, and it was slopped out in part because of some genetic research that some felt at the time showed clearly that there were two kinds of mood disorder. There was depression, which people then suggested could be renamed Yuna polar disorder, and there was the disorder formerly known as manic depression that could then be called known as bipolar disorder. Not everyone agreed then or now with this by for -cation, and there's been a push among some clinicians and experts to. To reintroduce the more expensive category of manic depression disorder. But I also think there was a feeling among the public. I mean, the number of the advocacy groups changed their name also. And they didn't do it primarily or only because of the genetic work. They did it because they felt at manic depressive disorder frightened people as a term that bipolar disorder was a more sort of friendlier won't less stigmatizing way of talking about this form of suffering. What was it about the words manic depression, that sounded more frightening than bipolar disorder? Well, I think men mania and a maniac, and you know, it invoked sort of wild die potentially violent forms of behavior. And that was not at all the kind of message that an. Advocacy organization would be wanting to convey, they didn't want people who are frightened be frightened off from seeking help. So I think the first drug that was used to treat medic depression was lithium which right was previously market as a health tonic. That amazed me when I read it. The first thing that know about lithium to understand it's strange place in the history of psychiatry is that unlike all the other drugs, it wasn't invented in a laboratory, it's an element. It's found in the natural world. And it's found for example, in certain kinds of spas in Europe that in the past bragged about their high lithium content of their drinking water. And so it had a place in spot culture. It had a place as a feel-good tonic. It was a for a period of time and ingredient in a new limited time soft drink that became quite popular in through the nineteen fifties that gets renamed seven up and the family. Seven pet lithium in it. And there's no one quite knows for sure why Griggs the inventor of this soft drink Rena had a very convoluted previous name, but it, but it was renamed seven up and something that this might be a reference to the atomic number of the theme stressed under seven and the up. Meaning the suggestion that it lifts the mood lithium is no longer in seven up and cocaine is no longer in Coca-Cola. Right. But there was this previous history of the theme, and then lithium sort of fortunes as a product using all sorts of other things too that have nothing to do with, you know, the health industry but its fortunes as a product in the health industry taken nosedive when it is used as the basis or a compound of with the misuse as the basis for salt substitute. That ends up people believe causing heart problems and even several deaths. And so there's a warning sent out by the AMA, and then eventually FDA that you know, these source subsidy it will take them off the market. This is a dangerous drug and so this the emergence in psychiatry emerges against the background of to relevant facts one. It has a reputation now for being dangerous and to it's not gonna make a pharmaceutical company very much money because they can't patent it. So is lithium still like a drug of choice or treating patients with bipolar disorder? I think there are a lot of people say it's a very good drug. And there are some people to still take lithium the problem with lithium. And I use the word problem. You know, it's not a problem for patients as much as a problem for the industry and the way in which the industry is a player in these. How things develop is that. It wasn't profitable certain clinicians had to basically go and petition several pharmaceutical companies to even market it after it received FDA approval nineteen seventies. No one was interested in it. So what then happened is the drug companies found ways to make treatment for bipolar disorder. More profitable by developing other patentable, or proprietary drugs and the first generation of these were drugs that are formerly been anti epileptic drugs. Drugs names, like typical that they then called mood stabilisers. And now a lot of people are the second generation or atypical anti psychotics that also in the nineties and beyond got FDA approval to as treatments for bipolar disorder. So lithium was taken off the market is. Salt-substitute because of its side effects. But then, you know, lithium as a drug to treat manic, depression, or BI polar disorder is it still seen as having the harmful side effects possibly cardiac artifacts. Well, I think what does happen is that people incorporate a recognition that there is this risk. And there's than people on lithium undergo regular blood monitoring, then adjustment of their dose to reduce the risk of cardiac incident. My guest is an Harrington author of the new book mind fixers psychiatrists troubled search for the biology of mental illness. We'll talk more after a break. We'll also hear Maureen Corrigan review of Janney. Scott's memoir about growing up in a wealthy mainline family in Philadelphia. Her grandmother was said to be the inspiration for Katherine Hepburn's character. In the film, the Philadelphia story and linguist Jeff number will talk about a word. We're hearing a lot now socialism, I'm Terry gross in this is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message. Come from nature's way, make your of herbal supplements from Oshawa Gonda to turmeric nature's way believes nature knows best. This is why since nineteen sixty nine. They have sought out. The best herbs the earth has to give and why they travel the world to the places where herbs grow best to ensure they always deliver the purest botanical possible. Find out more today at nature's way dot com. Let's get back to our interview about the search for a biological understanding of mental illness and for drugs to treat it. My guest is Harvard professor and Harrington author of the book mind fixers. So your book is about basically like the history of pharmaceutical treatment for mental health disorders. And at the end of the book, you say that you think about a pharmaceutical companies have been leaving the psychiatric field, and I was very surprised to read that because it seems like just about everybody is on something right now, and why would pharmaceutical companies believing when so many people are on antidepressants or treatment for bipolar disorder. You know, not to mention anti psychotics, and it's it's hard to get off of many of these drugs. Once you're on it like you tend to stay on them. So why would pharmaceutical companies been leaving who's there's been no new good ideas as to where to look for new novel biomarkers or targets since since since the nineteen sixties the only PA. Possible exception is there's now some excitement about ketamine which targets a different set of biochemical systems, but are India's very expensive. These drugs are Mao mostly off patent their efforts even to develop not for decades. They've been tinkering around the edges of the same kinds of monarchy targets, and even their efforts to bring on new drugs in that sort of tried and true and tested way with tink. You're here in a tinker. There has been running up against so mostly unexplained, but indubitable problems with the placebo effect, the drugs, the drugs don't seem to get better results than people getting a placebo. It's right. But it doesn't mean that the drugs don't work. It just means that the placebo effect is really strong and the the logic of clinical trials is that the CBA effect is nothing. And you have to be able to be better than nothing. But of course, if the placebo effect isn't just nothing, then maybe you need to rethink what it means to test a drug now, this sort of goes beyond what story and should be talking about. But it does seem that the pharmaceutical company has a big placebo problem on its hands. You know in talking about new drug has to beat the placebo in test trials in order to be approved by the FDA. Yeah, I'd love to hear more research about the placebo effect. It obviously exists. We should kinda way of harnessing it better. Well, I agree with that it before I wrote mind fixers, I've spent quite a bit of time being interested in the placebo effect as a really interesting and under studied and under theorized entertain its own, right? And I follow the research of people who are trying to show. This look there's a biology of the placebo effect. And if you give people fake morphine, you know, you can see changes in their brain. If you give people fake anti-depressants, you can see changes in their brain that. So there's a real biology here. And yet, I think the tempting conclusion that will why don't we just give people placebos if they're so good is a dangerous one though, you'll be lying to them you'd be telling them it's a drug when it's not. Well, that's some people say, oh, you can get around that by telling people that we found these drug, you know, this is a drug with no side effects because it's got no active ingredients, and we found up to be very effective evidence shows as affective with people with your canoe do people and with their condition. But I think that the placebo effect is as powerful as it is because it's parasitic our belief. Chiefs in parasitic on the pharmaceutical industry, people don't believe in the placebo effect. And I don't think any amount of reframing is going to profoundly change that people believe in medicine in medicines. And so you you just have to see why the CBA effect this likely on its own not going to be our solution. You just have to go back to a world before these pharmaceuticals came on the market before we had drugs and ask any older psychiatrists who remembers those years what it was like now where I do think that there's a lot of room to pay more attention to the CBA effect going forward is in the ways in which its present. Even when you're taking active drug, there's always a placebo effect. With people fact isn't just the effect of. A fake drug. It's just that. We can see it more clearly there when there aren't other confounding factors. This always a placebo effect end the CBO effect also points us to the ways that were more than just biochemical systems in the narrow reductionist understanding of the word that we respond to a relationship with doctor. We respond to what we're told when we're giving the medication where respond to going to this hospital rather than some other hospital because we read in the US news in whatever report that it's a great hospital or we read something differently different about it. We're that reminds us that a biochemistry is not all there is it does offer an open up a possibility of I think a more interdisciplinary and more holistic way of thinking even about. Drug treatment. So you teach at Harvard and you've been teaching how many years over twenty. So in that time, I'm I doubt you ask students if they're on medication. But maybe there's a way you can kind of get a sense of that do you think that the number of students on various mental health and anti anxiety disorder. Medications has has increased or decreased over time. And do you think attitudes among your students? You know, have have changed about those medications. So I have both been teaching at Harvard for over twenty years and teaching large undergraduate courses, including courses on the history of psychiatry. So I get a lot of students who come with histories. It's whether drawn to the course, I also live with undergraduates. I'm what's called the faculty dean of a residential community on the Harvard campus. And so I get to know the. The students personally, and I. They have problems and struggles and executives, you know. I'm sort of listening there. And so by impression is that. Yeah. I think that they're more fragile. They feel more fragile to me. But I also know that when ten years ago, I wasn't living with them. So I may just be the fact that I now see more up close how fragile they feel how much they struggle. And I think that a lot of them are on medication. I think that the reasons they're on medication sometimes are probably medical and sometimes are because it will help them even though they don't necessarily in my on non-clinical view. But just knowing them as people, you know, it's that will help them get through. And I have come to believe that. There are reasons sometimes to go on medication that are not simply because you have a biochemical imbalance or you have a. Some kind of biological defect. So are you saying that there's times in in in the lives on the students were they benefit from medication? Even though they don't have like a a diagnosed disorder, but let me try to say this carefully because it's important say a person can be depressed a person can be hugely anxious. And the reasons that a person is deeply depressed or hugely anxious. Sometimes is not discernible and sometimes is discernible. We don't know enough about the biology of these mental disorders to know, whether or not, you know, some of the reasons are biological in the sense that medicine likes to think of these things as diseases and whether it's just because they're having terrible problems. You know, their family at home is struggling, and they having trouble concentrating on their homework, and they're not doing well in school. And they can't you know, and they get more and more despairing are they do they have a disease? Do they I don't know. Do they need help? Yes. I think they do what are the options available to them while I would love to see a larger more pluralistic set of options. But I do have come to believe that medication sometimes might want to be one of them. But again, it comes back to what we were saying before there needs to be a honest risk benefit assessment. That includes the person who's being gonna take the medication. I'm so it's so important that you know, were involved the patients, the people who are on these drugs in the conversations and talk to them about what why this might help what we do or we don't know and move forward in our imperfect world to try to deal with the suffering. In harrington. I wanna thank you for talking with us. Thank you very much for having me purely preceded the chance and Harrington is the author of the new book mind fixers after we take a short break. Maureen Corrigan will review a new memoir by Janny Scott about growing up in a wealthy Philadelphia family. It's called the beneficiary fortune misfortune and the story of my father. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Exxon Mobil, the company that believes that carbon capture technologies are critical for lowering global CO two emissions and more and more. Scientists agree as a leader and capturing emissions in its own operations. Exxon Mobil is working on ways to make this technology. More efficient and affordable for other industries as well. That's the unexpected energy of Exxon Mobil. Find out more at energy factor dot com. Movie season is here and pop culture. Happy hour hasn't covered for a guide for the blockbusters. You know about surprise bright spots. You might not we'll tell you what we are looking forward to what we're secretly dreading. And what might sneak up on us? Listen now, and subscribe Janny Scott is a former New York Times reporter, and the author of the two thousand eleven book, a singular woman, the biography of n Dunham Barack Obama's mother. Now, Scott has trained her biographical research skills on her own extraordinary family, but critic Maureen Corrigan has a review of the beneficiary many years ago I worked as an academic day laborer, unfiltered, Ellias main line for those unfamiliar with it the main line developed in the late nineteenth century along a railroad. Route west of the city was for decades a quietly grand stretch of lavish estates, private schools and cricket and golf clubs catering to fill. Adelphia's old money. The classic nineteen forty romantic comedy, the Philadelphia story starring Katharine Hepburn as a snooty socialite was set on the main line Hepburn herself attended Bryn Mawr college, one of the main line institutions, I was adjunct teaching at to cobble together a living at the end of a work day. I'd ride back to Philadelphia aboard the commuter train staring through the always grimy windows at all the charming houses and landscaped gardens passing by I envied, the folks who lived inside those houses and what I saw as their legacy of ease and beauty Janny. Scott lets me know I was nothing, but a stranger in a strange land incapable of decoding the more intricate stories flickering before my eyes Scott who was an award-winning reporter for the. New York Times has written a vivid and penetrating memoir called the beneficiary about her own illustrious main line family and the hefty emotional weight of inheritance to give you a quick sense of her pedigree. Scott's great great. Grandfather was a railroad baron and mentor to Andrew Carnegie her daring and glamorous grandmother. Helen hope Montgomery was said to be the inspiration for the Hepburn character in the Philadelphia story growing up Scott and her siblings along with four generations of relatives lived in houses. Scattered over an eight hundred acre main line state, which also boasted stables a dairy form swimming pools and a couple of one room schoolhouses occasionally playing to the base desires of us proletarians eager. To hear absurd things about wasps. Scott recalls. The Sunday night suppers presided over by her grandparents at the big house that we're required attendance on the menu, cold roast beef, a hodgepodge Scott's parents called vomit salad and mint chocolate chip ice cream with the dusting of Nestle's chocolate powder. One unhappy in-law described the ritual as the Sunday night gasped lease as a young adult. Scott says the oddness of her upbringing began to come into focus early in this memoir. She tells a story about herself as a college student catching a ride home with a friend whom she describes as a brainy first generation American. We were preaching my parents house. Scott recalls passing a wall of evergreen. Through which one could catch sight of the fenced fields beyond where are the slave quarters. My friend asked teasing sort of I knew the place intimately Scott says, I understood it not at all the beneficiary is Scott's clear eyed attempt to understand that place and the privileged, but hermetically sealed life it gave to her family. She sets out to scrutinize the hidden soul. Draining costs of having an entire life education career marriage prefabricated for you before birth above all though, Scott yearns to understand the beneficiary whose most elusive and compelling to her that would be her father, Robert Montgomery, Scott a clubby public-spirited patrician who served as president. Of the Philadelphia museum of art. Scott's father nursed, a somewhat socially acceptable. Lifelong addiction to alcohol as well. As a socially unacceptable struggle with depression, and a persistent sense of inauthentic city after his death. Scott unearths, the decades worth of journals her father bequeath to her his voice is arresting in its despair. Listen to this entry in which he talks about his marriage. I am married to a charming spoiled wife with whom I have little in common, but background my failure at the tennis court eliminated, which she felt to be the sphere in which we would have experiences together. And the result is that we have no common experiences, except our background. We live our background. Our house is our two generations of money flowing into more of culture. This is no way to live. Scott judiciously quotes from her father's journals. But whenever she does. So it's evident that there been at least two gifted writers in her family. Father and daughter, the beneficiary is a wise and poignant memoir about all the things money can buy and all the things it can't. Marine cardigan teaches literature Georgetown University. She reviewed the beneficiary by Janny Scott after we take a short break our linguist. Jeff number will talk about the word, socialism and its place in current political discourse, this is fresh air support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from the all new twenty nineteen Subaru forester with standard symmetrical all wheel drive and award winning safety technology to give you extra confidence on every drive inside. It features a spacious upgraded interior with heated seats, a Vince and USB ports. All available for second row passengers as well as the front that twenty nineteen Subaru forester. Welcome to the SUV for all you love. Learn more at Subaru dot com. Hey there. I'm Joshua Johnson. The host of one a there are lots of places to debate today's issues if you don't mind getting attacked for speaking your mind or asking a simple question, but one a is different. You'll find a one a podcast on the NPR one app or wherever you listen to podcasts. Since the early twentieth century the word socialism has lived on the fringes of American political discourse. Now, suddenly, it's at the forefront of the national conversation are linguist. Jeff Berg Hesam thoughts on the label that came in from the cold time was when the word socialism had affirmed footing in the American political lexicon with all the meanings that is collected in the other nations where it's taken root, it could be mixed or pure planned or market, a dogma or simply an aspiration the name of our desire as the critic Irving Howe famously defined it. But after the American socialist movement crumbled in the nineteen twenties the right compacted the word into a single term of abuse. It became the S word, which is the title that John Nichols of the nation magazine gave to his recent history of socialism in America from social security and unemployment insurance to Medicare and the Affordable Healthcare Act. Republicans have labeled every soc. The welfare program proposed by Democrats as socialist socialistic or creeping socialism a phrase coined by Thomas Dewey in nineteen thirty nine give socialism of foothold they'd say and nothing can arrest. The slide to prediction in nineteen thirty six. Herbert Hoover said that FDR socialist policies were leading America on a March to Moscow with the fall of the Soviet empire. Half a century later Republicans had a redirect that road to a warmer destination as vice president Pence told the conservative political action committee last March, we know where socialism needs just look at Venezuela. But the logic hasn't changed since Hoover's time passing universal health care or a fifteen dollars. Minimum wage is like picking up a monopoly card that says go directly to Caracas do not pass Stockholm until recently Democrats dismissed those charges as fearmongering in nineteen fifty. To Harry, Truman called socialism scare word and said that when a Republican says down with socialism, he really means down with progress. But the S word isn't quite as spine chilling now, particularly to millennials they have no memory of the Cold War. They can't tell you what the second s in USSR was for. And the fall of the Berlin Wall is just one of a mash of eighties film clips along with the Exxon Valdez pacman, and Boy, George the upheaval that shape. Their political perceptions was the financial meltdown of the mid two thousand that made them keenly aware of the mayhem that Godzilla capitalism could wreak and of the economic inequality that the occupy movement captured with quantitative precision with a new phrase the one percent socialism began to sound like a needed corrective, particularly once it was personified by contentious old Senator from Vermont and a young congresswoman from New York with a. Digital natives talent for social media. Both of them avowed. Socialist is the media sometimes described them in the way, they've traditionally referred to avowed eight Theus and avowed homosexuals by two thousand eighteen a majority of millennials said, they had a positive view of socialism, including quite a few Republicans not all of those who look kindly on socialism. Go onto label themselves as socialist democratic socialists too. Many of them the word Vokes, phrases like the social contract. Another term that's been in the air a lot lately. But however, they describe themselves the great majority of millennials associates socialism with new deal style programs like universal health care and access to free higher education, not state control of business. And while they give low marks to capitalism. They aren't hostile to free markets. In fact, an overwhelming majority say they approve of the free enterprise system that's not a contradiction. It's the difference between accepting the rules of the game and saying it could be played a little more decently. After all you can love football. But hate the NFL. The fact is that most of the millennial fans of socialism don't see the role of government that differently from the people who still call themselves progressives or liberals, though, they tend to be more dog at about it to conservatives that just means that millennials don't know the true. Meaning of the word socialism conservatives often seem to assign magical powers to the word. Call yourself, a socialist. And you summon the. Specter of Stalin, whether you meant to or not you think you're calling for guaranteed healthcare, but you're really calling for gulags and collectivisation. Actually as John Nichols points out, the recent popularity of socialism has a lot to do with the way conservative media slathered the word over Barack Obama and his programs both of which were fairly popular. That's a risk Republicans run when they frame the Democrats positions as socialistic. They may inadvertently detoxify the brand, particularly when the connections to Marxism are hard to discern Senator McConnell recently denounced, what he called the Democrats radical half-baked socialist proposal to make election day a federal holiday, but more than two thirds of Americans think that's a good idea. And if that makes them socialist. Well, what's to be frightened of a lot of voters are still skittish about socialism? So that all the democratic hopefuls other than Sanders have had to force. Swear the label though is the Florida Democrat, Andrew gillum noted. It's not as if that will stop Republicans from calling them socialist anyway, but it's no longer exclusively the. Republicans were to define or demonize. It's a contested label. Now Justice conservative is on the right? It isn't yet clear where socialist will settle in the vocabulary the American left as it jostles with labels like liberal and progressive, but it's not the S word anymore. That might be the most consequential change in American political language since the Aira when Herbert Hoover was walking the earth. Jeff number is linguist who teaches at the university of California Berkeley school of information tomorrow on fresh air attack about the Muller report with Rosalind Helderman, an investigative reporter for the national political staff of the Washington Post. She co wrote the commentary and analysis in the posts publication of the report, I hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineers, Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stana chefs or associate producer for digital media is Molly seavy nesper. Roberta shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry gross.

depression Janny Scott bipolar disorder Philadelphia Harrington FDA Jeff number mood disorder Terry gross Harvard Maureen Corrigan Exxon Mobil Fresh Air benzodiazepine Republicans Herbert Hoover Texas am university Katherine Hepburn
Duquesne Spy Ring sentenced - January 2, 1942

This Day in History Class

06:10 min | 1 year ago

Duquesne Spy Ring sentenced - January 2, 1942

"What was your first musical memory. The first album or the first concert ever attended. My name is slow. Legendary was crew and those are the kind of questions questions. I like to get the answers to quest. Supreme is my weekly podcast where I team supreme sit down inert out with our favorite creators creators and thinkers and find out what makes them great. And you'll learn something. That's a really good time listening to love supreme on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get. Get your pawn you this day in. History class is a production of iheartradio. Hello Everyone Eve's here if you've been listening to the last several episodes and you know that I've been speaking to you from the comfort of my own home. I'm still at home enjoying the beginning of the new year. But it's another day and you know that means there's more history to tell so. Let's get into another episode. Today is January. Second Twenty twenty off the day was January. Second Nineteen forty two thirty three members of a Nazi spy ring headed. By Frederick also known as Fritz Duquesne were sentenced to serve time in prison it before the US entered World War Two in December of nineteen forty one. Germany was already conducting espionage in the US. German American spies had managed to to gather important information from military and industrial sites Williams. Feeble old was one of many people. Nazi Germany enlisted to be spies I on. US soil seaboard was born in Germany and fought for his birth country in World War One but after the war ended he moved to the US and became a citizen there he worked in industrial in aircraft plants in the US and South America but when he took a trip to Germany to visit his family in nineteen thirty nine. The Nazis recruited him through threats and intimidation to work as a spy when he returned to the US. Concerned about the safety ESPN. In Germany seebold agreed and started his training to become a spy. He made it back to the US. In February of nineteen forty using the alias Parry Sawyer and the codename tramp Cbo seems like an ideal crew but while he was in Germany he told officials at the American consulate in in Cologne that he was willing to cooperate with the US Federal Bureau of Investigation when he got back to New York City. He posed as a diesel engineering consultant. The FBI FBI helped him set up a business office in Manhattan where he would meet with. Spies who would give him information to pass the Gestapo or Nazi Germany. Secret Police in the office was decked. Out with hidden microphones cameras and a two way mirror the FBI also built. Siebel a shortwave. Radio transmitting station on Long Island Island from their FBI. Agents sent messages to Germany and received messages from the Nazis through that communication line. Germany was unaware that their messages were being monitored by us. Agents when spy who visited steeples Manhattan office was Frederick Joubert Duquesne who ran a large determines firing duquesne with South African bore and a US citizen. What they long history of hating the British as a German spy duquesne gathered information about US and British shipping records and US military technology over the course of several meetings? He revealed to Siebel plans for a type of bomb being made in the US and he told us he bowled how fires could be started in industrial plants for sixteen months the FBI worked with CBO to collect a ton of information on Nazi spies working in the US. Mexico and South America Induna one thousand nine hundred ninety one the F. B. rounded up a band of Nazi spies nineteen members of the spiring pled guilty that December. The remaining fourteen members were found guilty at trial and on January second of the next year all thirty three people in the spy ring repentance to prison. Duquesne got eighteen years in prison on espionage charges urges and a two thousand dollar fine for violating the foreign agents. Registration Act that passed in nineteen. Thirty eight requires anyone. Anyone who does political or advocacy work on behalf of foreign entities to disclose their relationship with the foreign entity and any relevant activities in finances finances after German. Spies were convicted the US government relocated to California and gave him a new identity diagnosed. I with Manic Depression. He was committed to Napa State Hospital in nineteen sixty five. He died of a heart attack five years later. I'm Eve Jeffcoat vote. Hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If you have any burning questions you can send them to us on facebook twitter or Instagram instagram at td. H The podcast. And if you would prefer you could send them to us via email at this day at iheartmedia. Et Dot Com. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you here again. Same time tomorrow for more podcasts. From iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to. Your favorite shows does hello. I'm John and I'm Josh. And we're the host of serious wrapped a new weekly podcast premiering on Iheartradio Johnathan France for over twenty years in debate about hip hop life. Current events has always been part of it and now we recorded every week for. y'All listen to so Chica- serious rash on iheartradio at Apple podcasts. Or wherever you get podcasts piece.

US Germany Fritz Duquesne FBI apple Germany Siebel South America CBO Manhattan Spies Iheartradio Johnathan France Long Island Island Twenty twenty Secret Police engineering consultant Eve Jeffcoat Mexico Williams ESPN
Disney CEO Bob Iger Has Lessons On Fostering Creativity  And Acquiring It

NPR's Business Story of the Day

07:04 min | 1 year ago

Disney CEO Bob Iger Has Lessons On Fostering Creativity And Acquiring It

"This message comes from NPR sponsor xfinity. Some things are slow like a snail races other things are fast like Xfinity X. by get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply before Bob Iger took over as CEO of the Walt Disney Company Disney's stock value with stagnant it studios and networks and theme parks had lost their magic. We were embattled and somewhat discouraged and not as optimistic as we needed to be and we needed to find our way. I talks about how he turned. Disney around in his new book called the ride of a lifetime and peers Elizabeth Blair spent some time with him. Bob Eiger worked his way up the entertainment ladder starting with menial jobs on soap soap operas and game shows to running. ABC Sports as CEO of Disney eiger oversaw the opening of the Disney theme park in China and championed the end blockbuster movies like Black Panther has also had some flops when he was head of entertainment for ABC. He presided over a legendary failure a musical starring police officers careful cop rock with the brainchild of the late Stephen Bochco whose credits included hillstreet blues and NYPD blue in his book Kebab Eiger Rights. He didn't regret trying cop rock because quote. If you want innovation you need to give permission to fail when you take risks you have to be willing the process failure because there is inevitable failure in creativity eiger believes in taking big swings before the COP rock fiasco one one of those swings knocked it out of the park at least initially eiger convinced his bosses at ABC to broadcast twin peaks a riveting but oddball murder mystery created by filmmaker David Lynch twin peaks was in a way the game of thrones of its Time Television was somewhat tame at that point still and this was unlike anything that was on extremely well executed have very compelling story and it gave Bob Iger huge cred in Hollywood's creative community in his book. He writes that suddenly he was getting calls from Major Movie v Directors Steven Spielberg George Lucas wanting to know what they might do for ABC. The first season of twin peaks was a sensation but it could not sustain name and here's where Bob. I learned a lot about working with artists. David Lynch was known for offbeat films not a TV series that needed to deliver a new plot twists each week. EIGER says Lynch didn't want to answer the central question to the twin peaks mystery who killed Laura Palmer David was arguing that if he solved the murder known would wanNA come back that would be it and and I argue the opposite and ultimately I prevailed it was not easy and the series failed and looking back. I'm sorry that I pushed it that far with David although I will say even though I have incredible double respect for David. One of the problems with the series was there wasn't much else to it from a story perspective I didn't I didn't understand that as much then managing the creative process acre anchor says requires both empathy and resilience to turn Disney around eiger set about acquiring other companies starting with Pixar the studio studio behind animated classics Toy Story and the incredible 's Eicher struck deals to acquire Marvel Lucasfilm and must recently twenty first century Fox. He says when acquiring a company he tries to keep its it's culture intact. There's a culture a way of life at the company that you've bought that sometimes can be integral to the creative process S. or the process of creating product at that company and if you go about it into heavy handed away you can destroy spirit and culture and a sense that's a purpose and in doing so destroy the very essence of what you bought our or reduce value as CEO Bob Eiger turned Disney into one of the largest entertainment companies in the world but he was not a shoe in for the job far from it in two thousand five Disney was in terrible shape and at the time he was then CEO Michael Eisner's number two Eiger says to get the job he worked on winning over members of the Disney board the shareholders and most importantly he says the people he would would lead Jennifer Lee who recently became chief creative officer of Walt Disney Animation Studios says I leads with trust he has all the faith in us is being grounded when we need to be grounded but he does know that you know to move forward. You have to be able to be bold but I is not without criticism. Disney has some I'm two hundred thousand employees and how those at the low end of the pay scale or treated has come under attack Disney heiress Abigail Disney has decried ride the enormous wage gap between workers at Disney theme parks who make less than twenty dollars an hour and it's executives who salaries are in the multimillions in response the Walt Disney Company points to its program for hourly employees that pays one hundred percent of the cost of vocational training or college degreen lean either recalls when he was fighting for the job of CEO he knew it was vital to have the support of the people inside Disney. It starts with the people who work at the company. You're not going to be admired on the outside unless you're admired on the inside. The Magic Kingdom Bob Iger has overseen for the last fifteen years includes theme parks around around the world movies. TV shows cable channels in his book. He writes about where his personal ambition comes from. He grew up in a mostly flee working class town on Long Island his father a world war. Two veteran had trouble keeping a steady job. He'd been diagnosed with manic depression. EIGER Egger says he grew up watching his dad feel like a failure even though I reminded him a number of times that he should be looking at accomplishment in a different way he had raised two kids kids have a younger sister and I thought that was an accomplishment in itself but seeing his disappointment with himself which was something that not only created a disatisfaction but an anger really at himself. I promised myself that I would not be him in that regard in there's new book optimism is at the top of his list of principles necessary for true leadership Elizabeth Blair. NPR News and you.

Walt Disney Company CEO Bob Eiger Bob Iger Eiger CEO Walt Disney Animation Studios EIGER Egger Kebab Eiger Rights EIGER Abigail Disney David Lynch Disney ABC Laura Palmer David Elizabeth Blair murder NPR CEO Michael Eisner NPR
Law for the Prevention of Genetically Diseased Offspring passed - July 14, 1933

This Day in History Class

07:34 min | 1 year ago

Law for the Prevention of Genetically Diseased Offspring passed - July 14, 1933

"From fireworks on the Fourth of July two long holiday weekends away there's plenty to look forward to during the summer but why way to celebrate new deliciously spreadable could Khanna cheese singles is giving you a reason to celebrate every single day with their they're single best. Stay sweepstakes visit create with Khanna Dot Com for your chance to win fifty dollar daily prizes and a Grand Prize of one thousand dollars plus get tips and inspiration to help make every single day the best day ever this day in history class is a production of iheartradio a quick content warning before we start the show this episode contains mentioned of Nazi Eugenics so if there are children around or your sensitive to this kind of topic you might want to skip it hi. I'm Eve's welcome to this day. In History Class A show that reveals a little bit more about history day-by-day today is July fourteenth twenty nineteen. The Day was July Fourteenth Nineteen thirty three Nazi. Germany passed the law for the prevention of genetically diseased offspring. The law mandated aided the forced sterilization of people with disabilities in further the goals of Nazi eugenic sterilization is the process of making a person unable to reproduce Hitler's Deputy Rudolf. Hess said Nazism was applied biology in Nazi ideology. The Nordic or Aryan race was biologically superior to all others through their racial policies. They aimed to eliminate any biological threats to a so called healthy Germany. eugenics or the practice of attempting to improve genetics of a population by increasing occurrence of hereditary characteristics deem desirable and reducing the occurrence of those deemed undesirable was popular in the United States dates Brazil Canada and many European countries forced sterilization and encouragement of reproduction and people who were determined to be fit to do sell where common in those eugenics movements Nazi eugenic and the law offer the provincial of genetically disease offspring crew out of existing eugenics policies German physicians in scientists who supported so-called racial hygiene before the law was passed continue to support Nazi policies that ordered ordered sterilizations based on scientific racism and false ideas of genetic fitness with the backing of medical scientific professionals the Nazi regime carried out a program of hundreds of thousands of forced sterilizations nations and euthanasia deaths. The law was based on a voluntary sterilization law created by PRUSSIAN health officials in nineteen thirty two it was co authored by lawyer Falk Radka director of Public Health Affairs Artur good and psychiatrists gruden according to the law people who are likely to have a child with quote serious physical or mental defects of Hereditary Nature Sibi sterilized people who are subject to sterilization under under the law included people with in the laws words congenital mental deficiency Schizophrenia Manic depression hereditary epilepsy hereditary Saint Vitus his dance also known as Huntington's Korea hereditary blindness hereditary. Terry deafness and serious hereditary physical deformity people with chronic alcoholism were also subject to sterilization the person subject to sterilization could apply for sterilization the state physician or the ahead of a hospital nursing home or penal institution could also request sterilization for a person applications will be made to the office of the Eugenics court which was attached to a district court once the court decided a person should be sterilized the operation had to be done even if it was against the person's will if necessary direct force could be used the law came into effect on January first nineteen thirty four aw though there were courts the decision to sterilize was often based just on the petition and some testimonies in the patient was not always present the three member panel that rebuked petitions consisted of two doctors in a judge most of the petitions ended with approval of the sterilization. The sterilization method was typically either a sesame are tubal litigation and invasive procedure that caused many deaths. Many of the people sterilized were an asylum uh-huh but the main targets of the program where people who were not isolated from society and who were of the age to be able to reproduce the application process courts and physicians in scientists gave the program and air of legitimacy eh but in reality the decision to sterilize just came down to who the Nazi's thought would contaminate the gene pool and weakened the national body. They even sterilize people for their anti Nazi beliefs. Around the world some supporters of eugenics praised the policy and people outside of eugenics movements also thought the policy was a good service for public health other people denounce the policy in fear the mask persecution it could because the Nazis went on to experiment with ways to sterilize people that didn't require as long of a recovery period the sterilization of people based on hereditary illness and ambiguous categories of disease morph into the murder of millions of people in the Holocaust. The sterilization program was largely suspended by nineteen thirty nine but by the end of World War Two the eugenics courts had ordered the sterilization of an estimated D- four hundred thousand people. I'm Eve Jeffcoat and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If there's something that I missed an episode you can share it with everybody else. On twitter instagram our facebook at t h podcast for more podcasts podcast from iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows you've seen Chelsea handler on the stage on T._v.. And on her Netflix series you've read her books and now you can hear her every week on her first podcast life life will be the death of me created in partnership with iheartradio life will be the death of me which shares the same title as her new memoir features interviews between the comedian and her inner circle of friends which have been recorded live from her sit down comedy detour guests on the comedic podcast include actress Connie Britton Comedian Sarah Silverman Journalists Jake Tapper Sean Hayes from will and Grace Actress Frankie Shaw Actress and Chelsea's B._F._F.. Mary McCormick and also.

Eugenics court Eve Jeffcoat Khanna Dot Com Chelsea Germany Mary McCormick United States Hess Hitler Netflix Falk Radka Korea twitter Saint Vitus apple Connie Britton Terry Brazil Canada
Gertrude Bell Born / Law for the Prevention of Genetically Diseased Offspring passed - July 14

This Day in History Class

13:29 min | 8 months ago

Gertrude Bell Born / Law for the Prevention of Genetically Diseased Offspring passed - July 14

"Today's episode is brought to you by oxy clean, so I just moved to a new home, which means that I just did a lot of cleaning and one of my least favorite places to clean. Is the bathroom shower fortunately ahead? oxy clean, versatile stain remover, which meant getting in those next in crevices and getting into that dirty grout made the job super easy. You've got to try oxy clean versatile stain remover for yourself to work your magic with oxy clean. Go to oxy CLEAN DOT COM slash. Try Me in order a free sample. That's oxy clean dot com slash t. r. y. m. e. for a free stain finding sample. Sample while supplies last, let's talk about Greyhound a new. World War film starring Tom, hanks that chronicles the battle between allied ships and not see subs of the Atlantic Ocean. This film is an epic blockbuster event that you can experience from the comfort of your own. Home Watch Greyhound July tenth exclusively on the Apple TV, APP, subscription required for Apple TV plus rated pg thirteen. Hello, everyone, it's Eve's checking in here to let you know that you're going to be hearing two different events in history and his episode one for me and one from Tracy Vivo thin. They're both good. If I do say so myself on with the show. Hello, and welcome to this day in History Class today is July Fourteenth Gertrude Bell was born on a stay in eighteen sixty eight in the English town of Washington Gertrude. Bell was a real person, but she really seems like the Hetero of a novel that I would love. She was the Victorian Lady Adventurer and And a diplomat, basically a daring, brilliant, eloquent archaeologist, who was the first woman to earn a first class degree in modern history at Oxford at the time. Most Oxford University's did not offer enrollment two women at all. She went to Lady Margaret Hall which is one of the few. Constituent universities that did not only is she completely not a fictional character. Her diplomatic work really helped shape the Middle East. Her uncle was a British ambassador in Iran and Bell traveled there in eighteen, ninety two by that point she had already taught herself how to speak Persian, which was one of many languages that she knew this visit to her uncle really sparked a lifelong passion for the. The Middle East, but she didn't stay there for very long. She traveled the world until the start of world war, one exploring mountaineering and working as an archaeologist once the war started, she wound up working for the Arab bureau in Cairo along with t e Lawrence also known as Lawrence of Arabia. She was the only woman who was working for the British government in the Middle East. She later on became the secretary to the British High Commissioner Sir Percy Cox the work she did involve working with the local people to convince them to join sides with Britain to fight against the Ottoman Empire. She became convinced during all of this that Iraq needed to be an independent nation, and it needed to have an Arab leader simultaneously. She was kind of a colonialist. She had a lot of the same mindset as a lot of other hardcore Baloney lists at the time, but she was also really dedicated to the people who were living in what would become Iraq so in nineteen nineteen. Nineteen, she wrote self-determination and Mesopotamia, and that wound up earning her a spot at the nineteen nineteen peace conference in Paris in Nineteen Twenty, she wrote review of the Civil Administration of Mesopotamia in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, one. There was a conference in Cairo that established the modern borders of Iraq and she was there, and she also helped Fussy the I the king of Syria win popular support. In Iraq he became its first King on August twenty third of Nineteen, twenty one after all of this gertrude. Bell became the honorary director of the Department of Antiquities and Mesopotamia. She helped establish the. Museum? She was also the person who found a bigger location for it in nineteen twenty six, but she died suddenly on July twelfth of that year of an apparent overdose of sleeping pills that was just less than a month after the museum opened, it was just shy of her fifty eighth birthday, and the monarchy that she helped establish in Iraq lasted for thirty seven years through three kings, ending with the July Revolution on July fourteenth nineteen fifty-eight thanks to Eve's Jeffcoat for her research. Research work on today's episode and Tari Harrison for her work on all of these episodes you can learn more about gertrude bill on the November nineteenth and twenty six two thousand twelve episodes of stuff you missed in history class, and you can subscribe to this day in history class on apple podcasts, Google podcasts, and wherever else you get your podcasts tune in tomorrow for the end of a tribunal that lasted almost four hundred years, but today is often more associated with some sketch comedy. Expanding X by is more than just fast. It's Internet that gives you ultimate control. With the X., y., APP, you can pause Wifi at the push of a button. Can Your Internet do that? Learn, more at ready dot com slash X. Y.. Guys. It's bobby bones I host the bobby bones show and pretty much always sleepy, because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple hours later. I! Get all my friends together. Get into a room and we do a radio show with our allies. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world that we possibly can, and we look through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country artists are always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music, too, so wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W Z Q in Washington, DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP. A quick content warning before we start the show. This episode contains mention of Nazi eugenics. So if there are children around, or you are sensitive to this kind of topic, you might want to skip it. Hi I'm Eve. Welcome to this day in history class, a show that reveals a little bit more about history day-by-day. The day was July. Fourteenth Nineteen thirty three. Nazi Germany passed the law for the prevention of genetically diseased offspring. The law mandated the forced sterilization of people with disabilities in further the goals of Nazi eugenics. Sterilization is the process of making a person unable to reproduce. Hitler's Deputy Rudolf Hess said Nazism was applied biology and Nazi ideology. The Nordic or Aryan race was biologically superior to all others. Through their racial policies, they aimed to eliminate any biological threats to a so-called healthy. Germany. eugenics or the practice of attempting to improve the genetics of population by increasing the occurrence of hereditary characteristics, deemed desirable and reducing the occurrence of those deemed undesirable, was popular in the United States Brazil, Canada, and many European countries. Forced sterilization and encouragement of reproduction and people who were determined to be fit to do so were common in those eugenics movements. Nazi eugenics and the law for the prevention of genetically diseased offspring crew out of existing eugenics policies. German physicians and scientists who supported so-called racial hygiene before the law was passed continued to support Nazi policies that ordered mass-sterilisation based on scientific racism and false ideas of genetic fitness. With the backing of medical and scientific professionals, the Nazi regime carried out. Of hundreds of thousands of forced sterilization and euthanasia deaths. The law was based on a voluntary sterilization law created by. PRUSSIAN health. In nineteen thirty two, it was co authored by lawyer. Falk Russia director of public. Health affairs are good in psychiatrist Ernst Rudin. According to the law people who were likely to have a child with quote, serious, physical or mental defects of hereditary nature should be sterilized. People, who are subject to sterilization under the law included people with the laws, words, congenital mental deficiency, schizophrenia, Manic Depression, hereditary epilepsy hereditary Saint Vitus. Dance also known as Huntington's Corea, hereditary blindness, hereditary deafness and serious hereditary physical deformity. People with chronic. will also subject to sterilization. The person subject to sterilization could for sterilization, the state physician or the head of a hospital nursing home or penal institution could also request sterilization for a person. Applications will be made to the office of the Eugenics court which was attached to District Court. Once the court decided a person should be sterilized. The operation had to be done even if it was against persons will. If necessary, direct force could be used. The law came into effect on January first nineteen, thirty four. Though there were courts. The decision to sterilize was often based just on the petition, and some testimonies in the patient was not always present. The three-member panel that rebuke petitions consisted of two doctors and a judge. Most of the petitions ended with approval of the sterilization. The sterilization method was typically either a sesame or tubal litigation and invasive procedure that caused many deaths. Many of the people sterilized were in asylums, but the main targets of the program where people who were not isolated from society, and who were of the age to be able to reproduce. The application process courts and physicians and scientists gave the program and air of legitimacy, but in reality the decision to sterilize just came down to who the Nazi's thought would contaminate the gene pool and weekend the national body. They even sterilize people for their anti Nazi beliefs. Around the world, some supporters of Jenex praised the policy and people outside of eugenics. Movements also thought the policy was a good service for public health. Other people denounce the policy in fear the mass persecution it could cause. The. Nazis went on to experiment with ways to sterilize people at. That didn't require as long of a recovery period. The sterilization of people based on hereditary illness and ambiguous categories of disease morphed into the murder of millions of people in the Holocaust. The sterilization program was largely suspended by nineteen thirty nine, but by the end of World War Two. The courts had ordered the sterilization of an estimated four hundred thousand people. I'm Eve Jeffcoat and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If, there's something that I missed an episode. You can share it with everybody else on twitter, instagram or FACEBOOK AT T. H podcast. For more podcast from iheartradio visit the iheartradio APP, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows every week, Las Vegas betting experts Brady Cannon and West Reynolds review the players, course, conditions, matchups, and odds give bear analysis on which golfers have the best chances to win and their best picks for every tournament longshots podcast digs deep into the data looking for betting value, frady and West's analyse performance on similar courses over the season, and which golfers match up well against the field. They provide you the insights you need before the first Golfer tees off to find. Find the best for winning of course, a few longshots to keep your eyes on. If you're an expert on betting on golf or looking for a new sport, bet this podcast is for you. The Visa and experts explain their strategies for adding on tournaments and golfers so that you improve your chances to win this weekend while you increase your golf batting, Iq this entertaining look at PGA tour betting strategies. We'll have you ready to make wagers like a pro every week. Listen to follow long shots on the iheartradio APP. Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Guys. It's bobby bones. I, host the bobby own show, and I'm pretty much always sleepy because I wake up at three o'clock the morning a couple of hours later. I get all my friends together. We get into a room and we radio show wish our allies. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world if he possibly can, and we looked through the news of the day that you care about also your favorite country, artists are always stopping by the hang out and share their lives and music, too. So wake with a bunch of my friends, I, Ninety eight point seven W. MC q in Washington, DC, or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP.

Apple Gertrude Bell oxy Iraq Washington Middle East bobby bones Eve Nineteen Twenty Eve Jeffcoat director golf Cairo Iraq DC Eugenics court Oxford University Oxford Atlantic Ocean
EHP100 How To Build Your Dreams One Business At A Time

The Emotional Happiness Podcast with That Anita Live

28:22 min | 1 year ago

EHP100 How To Build Your Dreams One Business At A Time

"Welcome to that's anita lot. The personal development talk show dedicated to providing emotionally personally healing through sharing to help you create a happy life. If you know someone that is not living a life they absolutely love. I need you to run. Get them right now. If it's you pay attention because my guest today is an entrepreneurial powerhouse she's gone from baking catering to event planning to public relations consulting and on and on all with hard work networking and good old fashioned grit. She's here today to help you. Overcome excuses accuses. Get up and get to work. Welcome chance to the show inc you <hes>. I'm glad to be here in nineteen years old. Yes milstar. Does your first business yes how did that start my dad <hes> garissa so he actually sleet of put me in a kitchen when i was four and the first thing i ever made was of donuts at four at four a had a step stool. He put me to the stove. He's like we're we're going to learn to cook and from there i started cooking and then my great grandmother <hes> i was to go to her own in the summer so he's taught me how to cook on a pot belly stove so had no temperature so had the gay just right but i fell in love with cooking. I cook anything and i never like without a recipe and so from there i just kept going and then <hes> someone asked me to bake a pie that have made from my family so that's where it started like hey i'm going on a trip kingship them to me and so that's where it all started in a blossom from there. How did you go from friends to putting a price on it. <hes> a mentor remind. He's a very big business. He's a very great businessman. He was based at tyson's. He ran a dating service. He said if people if you don't value products you know why would anybody else so he said put a price tag on still because they value it because he said you can't keep going out of your pocket and going broke to make them smile so i put a price tag on and they paid it and was that probably say the first the first price tag put was twenty dollars and it was for a pecan seekonk high but the thing is i shock. I showed the pecans myself. I bought them in bulk so a love into oh so he was like that's the price point and then it went from there yeah. How long did you stay in business baking. I it was ten years ten years. <hes> my father got sick and i lost my passion but i didn't lose a passion for business now understand there. There's no formal formal schooling not stuck in one class in high school. They'll nineteen. When you started your first business yes what removed the fear of failure for you. <hes> my dad his his he always told me like nothing beats a failure but a try okay so no matter what you keep trying i i never <hes> there was never a time where i was like okay. I can't try it like he was. The point of you know always looking at it. 'cause i used to be very fearful. Oh failing but i had to try it. Anyway and the failures were found the success though because sometimes i failed a lot i will say that i had failed many times. <hes> <hes> comedy shows businesses. I've had the close businesses but i never stop our close one to open an open another because from baking we went to oh yes to catering actually <hes> the food side of either candidate event for a home builder and the person's supposed to bring the food canceled on them so i was like okay whip up some small bites i had done that before so i came with desserts and the <hes> the food and they were like okay good good. We have three more <hes> open houses this week. How much of a lead time of a warning did you have before you had hours so i had a fulltime alltime job. Three children backed in a husband and a forty eight hour notice so i didn't sleep. I just worked it out but i love to to cook. That's how my passion would again. Ask this question would forty eight hours notice and adding small bites to the desserts that you were delivering yes. How did you put a price on it. Actually because of the short term short turnaround i just i looked at the cost of what it would for the materials my time and then i did my most high by three then point to and that's how i got on price. It's always a is a mathematical thing for me. It's always a map behind it because you have to know. Oh that the hour one hour of your time you have to look at exactly what you're doing in that our and so then you take it from there and the points who was because of late notice now initially being. I asked that question. Can you provide small bikes because i'll person canceled on us a normal person. You would've felt this bout of fear. Come up and would have said no no. Why do you feel as if that didn't happen for you because <hes> i knew i could deliver back did i had i was kinda fearless. 'cause i knew what i could do so it was like whatever i got forty eight hours. I got some good. I may crabcakes. <hes> little <hes> egg rolls like i still remember to this day because it was so important you know where your do this twenty four okay so from nineteen twenty four with baking twenty four. We pushed it over into catering now how did catering into event planning because someone was having a wedding much objectively. It's always like one of the woman then how it is so funny because they were having a wedding in their planner was was not doing what was not handling what they should've okay so it was one of the things like i just stepped in because it needs to be done and even even in my career. I've always done that like just you fill in the gap. It's not you know it's not any slack off of you just to be a team player. So now event planning takes on another skill set. Yes them breaking. Yes any fear yes because because with event planning there's so many factors that come into place like i just left my position as corporate event planner <hes> to focus on my business is but you're dealing with so many different components there the the actual probability of failure is higher because you're doing with anybody else coming into play so you have a fly flowers <hes> the core <hes> furniture <hes> the venue the weather and people so all of these kind of put into place so to be an a great to to be a great event planner. You have to plan for the expected and you also have to think three to five steps ahead so if you had fear what made you step into it and say yes. I'll handle it for you because i want to prove wrong. There's nothing you don't want to always can't do it because of this now now you gotta go full force. If you fail you feel nobody died. He saw this. Isn't that a measurement yes. Nobody died if something like them saying that that should be your limit if you come on. Nobody died then. That's how you felt all right. Let's roll through a couple of excuses that people generally use when they're faced with the with the opportunity opportunity that they haven't done before right they say <hes> what would you say to a person that says i can't start a business because i don't have a college degree. I laugh laugh at that because you look at it this way. I think everybody who either people in school elementary school when you're selling candy to raise money you're running a business so you have a college degree then <hes> when you were raising like when anytime you're doing any kind of transaction you're planning something. You didn't have a college degree in middle school high school when you're doing the booster clubs and stuff like that so why is that why is that even on the table you five years old so eliminate <hes>. That's running a business so i can't sort of business because i don't have anyone to support me. <hes> you support you. If you don't believe in you who would like this is where i really want people to understand like i've had no ticket sales to an event but i still showed up and gave the greatest event that i could why because that's what we do. That's what we're supposed to do. That's that's what you believe in if you don't believe in you been no one else will so that's not even excusable okay now. Let's talk about rebounding because as you mentioned you've had some business. You had to clo yes. You've had some that had some villiers yes. What was your biggest failure. And what was your lesson learn. My biggest failure was i would say closing a company that i had i learned from they're not everyone has good intent so i learned to structure myself have contracts attracts in place more tighter contracts and also not beat myself up. It happens move on so what was the failure that happened. I ended ended up losing photos and videos of a very important interview and almost lost my clients because of that because of of relying on someone else's they're all instead of taking care of it and being there. I just said oh that person had it in and not trusting my gut thousand biggest failure of that not trusting what the voice in the back of my head was saying so did the videography photographer just not show up yes yes yes and this person had paid and i had to intern return funds that was that i didn't even receive so actually had to take a loss on that also had to fix my reputation as well because some other inappropriate things happen. So why did you close versus because of the i closed it because i had to close that chapter in this okay to do that because the negative connotations that was attached to that ah i could not bring that along legacy because that person had basically took over that branding and i couldn't you can't separate the two you know you can't issue a statement and saying this is not me people have already got that taste in mouth so i had to close and it was hard but what was what was born out of that was something that i should have done from the get-go instead of being not listening to myself count them off for me because right now how many businesses you have open and operational right now so i have chandernagore consulting. That's a boutique business since development and p._r. Firm i have s._e._m. Productions with which is a photography videography in <hes>. We put on comedic events. I have the greater northern virginia comedy and film festival which it's in our in our inaugural year <hes> so it's happening in august and then i have the urban flight foundation shen which is accumulated organization where we give out information so that other <hes> so that people who are in a gray area. They don't qualify for help. They don't make enough to date so i helped them find resources and <hes> that's about it now. He synergies between those yes there is how do you operate great businesses that have four different separate skill sets they are intertwined because they're all they're all passions of mine so so with my consulting and appear actually pushed the other businesses and also help comedians understand the business side of comedy and helping them brand themselves elves and also give them shows that they can be on and also the festival that they can actually participate in so it all kind of work you can. I mean i. I love what i absolutely love it because it keeps me busy now. You mentioned the very beginning that you just ended your fulltime job. Yes they did to run your businesses fulltime. Yes what pushed you into that decision. Older i burnt out as a corporate. Ah actually burnt out but also it was not a great fit anymore because it got to the point where it was toxic so for my mental health both which is a big thing that i tell everyone know your limits and take care of you. I and i didn't do that so i had to make that decision and say you know what i gotta going to step away from this because this is not healthy for me and i have all this other stuff that could fail if i if i let this bernie out so the decision was made and it was hard would have had to be made and i'm flourishing in my business which is a welcome change. I'm just surprised because i've never never out in front talking about it of what was behind talking about the things do we write down to break down elise businesses and see if any of their services can help you. What if i told you that you could stop the negative tape from playing inside in your head. What if with seven simple steps you could leave the pain of the past behind and live every day as your true <music> offense itself. It is possible and you can do it. The evil seven simple steps to beat emotional baggage how to become. I'm hold healed healthy and happy shares how to resolve emotional baggage and feel free to live true to your own one personality spirit and character transformed negative thinking into positive thinking and become equipped to boldly faced your past and resolved emotional pain. Get your free copy. Live dot com slash and we are back with miss chandler gore discussing her a multitude of business experience and the four businesses. She currently runs for the big surprises that you run all of these businesses with a mental illness. Yes i do <hes> which is so funny because i think <hes> the stigma that depression is something that you're sat all the time and it's not that at all there are times where i'm an suffered from manic depression manic bipolar bipolar manic depression and anxiety and p._t._s._d. So let me give you the backstory a long time ago picture picture though <hes> back in i got married at eighteen to my high school sweetheart and it wasn't a good situation but because because i never want to walk away and give up stated it became an abusive situation which triggered things about things within my myself that i didn't know that i was dealing with with anxiety and then <hes> the last trigger before the foul foot of worse was <hes> a very abusive situation so from there i was depressed and it took me going into hospital for them to diagnosed nelson help me work through it. <hes> mind you have three little children three children from my marriage so being a young mother working and doing all of this other stuff i had the underlying issue of depression and anxiety and the panic episodes i would actually in west lived in west virginia so dr virginia every day before i had a panic attack on the side of the mountain going around announcing so that right there was a trick like okay. No i need to get some help because okay you drop off this mountain point so from there. I begin to work on getting myself together. There's been some very very lows and highs but i've worked through <hes> a lot of the things that i've dealt with because it'd be superwoman. All the time. I hear this us ninety. She was married. She had kids yep just managing a mental illness and she still opened her own breaking business. Yes miss me with the excuses not miss me with the excuses. Get up and get yes get the help. It's one thing i will say personally speaking as a black woman. We're always looked at as superheroes. We are not allowed to crowd. We're not allowed to show those put we have to own our human side. We can't be stoic all the time and cooper save everybody because because sometimes we need saving two so accepting added owning that like my father said to me. You need to get the help that you need because because i can't i can't do it right and i used to go to my data for everything like my dad. Was you know he was go daddy. Just tell me what to do. I can't help you with this. You have to go sit on that chant talking to somebody and so he helped me. He pushed me. He said because you see you gotta cry you gotta own those feelings you gotta go through it so doing that actually helping me lease and release you have to because you can't walk around pinto but it's not good for your children. It's not good for you. It's not good for people around you because sometimes sometimes you say oh. I want to be around toxic energy in some game you all talk city so let's not let this be real honest ourselves and fixed those things that are <hes> better that needs to be fixed on days. When you feel overwhelmed how do you what do you do so i actually will take a moment. I love to read. I like to write so either. Take a moment to myself to regroup and dan because sometimes you have to step away and regroup and have a cup of tea or coffee whatever it sit down and just decompress. That's what i usually do for myself and something that a lot of people don't wanna do because they have children but you have to take. What do you do with the kids running around making noise. You know what's so funny is my children actually can tell like mommy. You know hey 'cause they're. They're they're older now so my daughter is <hes> so so intuitive. She's like hey mommy. I see that you you is a coffee. Yes she's like you know you want to go. Have a cup of tea or you know hey. I think you need to go lay down for a little bit she is it helps that she can tell like i'll get really quiet or i won't cook or do certain things and she's like okay mom. You know you need to go. You know go. Hey we got it or we'll take care road. I'll come home and they've they've cooked because you know i'll call before i get home in their lake think they'll go ahead and take care of things that i don't put upon them right but they as a family they feel their responsibility to hold the bond and get together because when i was at my lowest we will all that was we were all we had because i don't have a big family so my children became i treated them their the children but they have that six cents where like okay mommy's not feeling good and they'll come into rub me like read the headache okay good. I just go with it because children. They don't have that <hes> that barrier yet. It wasn't that nice. You don't have any kids like mixed. I'm sick <music> c._k. They actually when i'm really i'm really in a in a depressive mode. They will actually come and check on me and say a you know a mom would cut the light off and let you have your moment in oak or they'll come and labor side me okay so that's your low now. Tell me how how do you handle. Oh self care in the is. I'll go get my face might get a facial. Get my nails done stuff like that but i also am so. My activities are so like i'll get so much done. It's like it's. It's a it's a high. It's it's it's the dynamic is is crazy but i manage it because actually works with of having multiple things to do so accomplished a lot in those high so yes you do actually actually compass allow. All my clients have gotten <hes> some really good <hes> returns out of my eyes so give me some examples. I had a client eh actually go on a national podcast which was very hard to get won't vice h._b._o. Vice and then they're actually actually doing great because of my branding and pushing and actually had a george washington university. Tell me that you're my branding was amazing thing and i was like oh really yeah you. This was spot on on the mark and i didn't realize it until like yeah it's perfect and it went into their with into their fit right into what they were doing and then had other clients who have totally revamped businesses and now the thriving so actually works <hes>. I feel good about that now that is out of the consulting arm. Yes sanita keep s._e._m. Reproduction yes break that down for me s._e._m. Productions play all my children's initials in my dad's initials they have the same. It's it's so funny but <hes> so out of that. I shot an i'm finishing up the second season of amazon series <hes> it's <hes> comedians who are local who haven't gotten their big break but they will <hes> so and then we produce comedy shows locally <hes> most of the time they walk in and he goes to the first guy they see not knowing. Let me who produces the show and who's actually going to be the one to pay them funny because there's not a lot of women producers in the comedy comedy game so it's like it's a good feeling to make sure that i can guide some people to understand our legacy and secure that <hes> my also secured a distribution deal for digital joel <hes> for pandora spotify. I'm the only one that actually holds that deal and this all of this bakery all of this from abakar yet because you know what's funny is father was an entrepreneur and seeing him actually kind of and he didn't want me to do that. He wanted me to go into law and be set be set work job. <hes> no i watched you own all your own town and now you want me to go into a job money else because he wanted me to be secure and mary right and all that other jazz and like you know like some of the things like one of those things you you graduate high school you married you have kids leads and takes care of everything that's not the thing for me i i kind of derail that and went on my own who gets helped with urban flight bound asia <hes> a lot of people <hes> so i will meet people who are in social services and they're. They've been denied whatever i'll tell them. This is where you can go for food resources goods and stuff like that here in the d._m._v. in d._m._v. mainly stafford virginia okay because a lot of people are coming from the urban areas to stafford because are being pushed out a lot of the a lot of the <hes> from public housing and stuff being gentrified. Yes they're actually being pushed further out further south and so from there from from what they were making in d._c. In maryland and stuff it's above the limit for a rural a rural county so then they have found alternatives chiefs to fill in the gaps to feed their families so there are a lot of resources that are available to those but a lot. They're not publicized because most of them don't have the ability to to <unk> advertise right so we share information because they have a small budget so let's provide services or by advertise correct and so that's where i come in. I go no and i actually hit the repub. The pound the pavement and find out so is there something in that name yes actually was visiting someone in the hospital in maryland l. and this is so random and i was like you know what it's like the herb that's the urban flight is being you know it's it's like basically they're fleeing from these areas areas that they're not being served in. It's like oh. She's like there. You have it. She was a lady next in the in the bed next. He was like you got your name. Thank you ma'am. She wrote me a it was like she wrote me a check. I was like okay. I guess it had to do it now. So so the urban flight is people that are being gentrified out of dc meaning meaning that the taxes are going up and the cost of housing is going up and all of the subsidized housing is being demolished. Yes so those people have to find some place to go live yup and they're landing. That's probably a <hes> forty minutes away twenty five thirty miles outside of the city yup so there's not a lot of information so that they know how to get around so you serve every population yes i do do why are you also serve as executive director of johnny appleseed association. Yes there's a trade school where actually fully accredited trade school where we help second second was returning citizens actually get trades and also people who are attorney for people who have made <hes> decisions who have have been in jail incarcerated here we go who are under educated stuff like that we give them a trade so that they can make the money to take care of their families and not have to do the cycle of <hes> being incarcerated or going to jail so essentially you're hoping them start their own businesses because it's too often the find jobs in the system <hes> <music> electrical apprentices plumbing h we have a dental hygienist program coming so yeah i'm over here. This is too much more going on a little bit when the nights i can't sleep. It actually works. I it's one of those things i guess miss me with the excuse take me shandra has given us more than enough nuggets jumpstart our dreams take this information to dream exhale l. plan and execute execute the business create a family legacy move from merely existing to live in a vibrant life full of love and and laughter to reach out to chander and tap into one of her many talents fines or on instagram at siegler consults and you'll find everybody see gore consults. What's your host beijing. Check out that any of the live dot com for where in win the next episode yeah.

virginia chandler gore maryland tyson middle school high school us beijing instagram spotify george washington university villiers d._c depression intern bernie elise attorney nelson executive director cooper
Amy Aronson, Author of the New Book "Crystal Eastman: A Revolutionary Life"

The Electorette Podcast

29:56 min | 1 year ago

Amy Aronson, Author of the New Book "Crystal Eastman: A Revolutionary Life"

"I'm Jim Taylor skinner. And this is the electorate on this episode. I have a conversation with amy. aaronson author of the New Book Crystal Eastman. A revolutionary revolutionary life. And if you haven't heard of Crystal Eastman you're probably not alone. She was one of the Most Progressive Communists of early twentieth century and she was also branded. The most dangerous woman. In America Crystal Eastman was an uncompromising feminist. She was also an early advocate for workers rights and a self branded socialist and anti militarist militarist. The two other important facts about crystal Eastman's life. She helped to write the equal rights amendment crystal Eastman was also the CO founder of the ACLU. So one of my very first questions about crystal Eastman's life is why she faded from history. Why there's so little information about her? So here is author Amy Eareckson explaining why she thinks that is. I think the main reason that crystal Eastman has kind of disappeared from or is obscure in historical record is because of what really was kind of intersectional mindset an intersectional outlook in her activism. What I mean by that is that Eastman Smith involved herself in multiple movements in many of the major social movements of the twentieth century and believed that they were all all linked together and worked throughout her career to try to link them together all under one kind of vast emancipatory rubric? She she believed saved and she she recognized that there you know there were. There were commonalities. Among various forms of oppression and she she tried tried to kind of straddle multiple movements and bring them together in order to combat. You know all of those common sources of oppression and inequality At once so she spent a lot of time talking about socialism anti imperialism and also you know maternity and maternal ism with feminists earnest's. She spent a lot of time talking about feminism and pacifism with Socialists and with revolutionaries and one of the outcomes outcomes of this was that Eastman always seemed to be kind of straddling so many different movements at once that her voice often it seemed insurgent or challenging from within each individual movement. Many of her colleagues felt that they weren't sure where she stood because she was trying to straddle so many different movements at once because when she talked to save feminists about socialism. It seemed like a challenge from within. Yes in and so. This cut complicated her status and her stature within the the movements that she was affiliated with within the movements that that she she built her life on at the same time as her radicalism and her activism challenged her standing in the more mainstream same political and social environments where she was radical so she was already challenging to more mainstream views but because of that she you know she needed needed stronger a stronger sense of belonging I think clearer sense of standing within the protest movements the leftist movements that she collectively saw as her political home. And so what happened was she. You know kind of fell through the planks of history. She fell to the planks of historical. Memory she we didn't have clear consistent connections with organizations With a single organization right or a single 'cause she didn't have clear and consistent alliances this is or relationships to various mentors. who were recognized the things that that signal stature and make someone intelligible and make someone visible double in historical memory? She kind of challenged complicated at every turn and precisely because she you know tried to connect them All to a larger vision of change that they all shared and so in some ways it was kind of I think a tragic irony that her her inclusive vision seem to divide people and seem to divide people's loyalties but in other ways it's also kind of a fascinating story of how we tell stories as how and why we remember people that I think has a lot to tell us about our current intersectional environment for forming coalitions to pursue the same social change that she and others have been pursuing for a century. You know in counting so is it over simplistic to say that. She was possibly a victim of her own own prolificacy like she was so prolific involved in so many movements that she wasn't known for single thing or was it that and making some hostility because she was seen as kind kind of an insurgent and lots of these movements. I wouldn't say hostility but I would say that you know. She challenged people. She challenged. Organizational hierarchies and in leadership at you know in various organizations and so there were some leaders She had quite a run in with Alice. Paul for example Particularly after the vote was one John when the militant wing of the women's movement the National Women's Party was starting to figure out. Okay what comes next. It was in that period before the rise of the Equal Rights Amendment Amendment nineteen twenty-three that they were you know searching for okay. What's our next approach and Eastman wanted a very intersectional kind of transnational feminist movement and Paul wanted a much more focused targeted women's campaign? Just much like the you know. The suffrage movement that they had just successfully completed pleaded so for some leaders. There was that you know that sense that they were being challenged from a colleague For others it was the fact that you're kind of intersectional perspective active As well as her movement to the left after the Russian revolution seemed to radical and seemed to push the organizations that she was associated with in more radical directions than many of the progressive leaders in those organizations were comfortable. That's unfortunate you know. She reminds me of reading her story. And you know kind of the motion all day of it. And the Ark of her life. She reminds me of not Elizabeth Rankin but there. I can't believe I can't remember a name. The very first woman who ran for president. who was ooh Toria woodhall awesome? She's scared the crap out of people what it's just something about her demeanor. It's hard to tell from a book you know but just something about it. Just kind of reminds me of that similar kind of radical woman radical feminist. Get around that time. And you know crystal was just unafraid. she was so bold and she. She asserted her freedom. She really you know she. She claimed a freedom and claimed a world that even while she was trying to create it so she was an in kind of a kind of a real sense woman ahead of herself or ahead of her time. You know I know. That's kind of a cliche as historians. You know we're we're not really supposed to say that What struck me about her early on? You know what would I I think stuck with me From my graduate school days till almost twenty years later when I finally you know sat down to to try to write the book was the sense of a woman who was just calling ahead of herself and you know and in envisioning and reaching four And you know and actively demanding and trying to live live in a world that was much closer to mine than it was to hers. And you know I found that's just so compelling it's visionary I think she was a gripping person go find her story gripping because of that right she had some really really progressive stances and you know you mentioned a few feminism and she was also I think a socialist. She called herself a socialist right. Yes and she was four reproductive rights. Yes very much. So why was she branded. I WanNa go through the historical arch- of her life a bit later. But why does she branded the most dangerous woman in America. Well I need most of those claims about who came in her. Most radical or revolutionary period after the Russian revolution revolution in nineteen seventeen. She and her brother Maxi sman much better known than she is a radical writer and editor of the Masses magazine. The two of them together published the Liberator magazine which started in Nineteen Eighteen Shortly after the Russian revolution and it was called the Journal of Revolutionary Progress and it became very quickly the kind of center of reporting and information about revolutionary movements worldwide in connection with that period in her politics. Um which I can explain to you a little bit how. She kinda volved into that radicalism from her more progressive earlier activism in connection with that. She took very forthright arthritis very bold. Very outspoken stances in favor of the Bolsheviks and herself traveled to communist Hungary and she was the first the American reporter to do that and reported very enthusiastically at least initially about her hopes that the a similar revolution would come to the United States and would indeed sweep the world would become a global revolutionary movement. And of course this you know this kind of radicalism. She was not alone in it particularly on the left after the Russian revolution many colleagues from a number of different movements also celebrated revolution however You know it still was. That was not a mainstream extreme view. You know even on the left it was not a mainstream view was a radical view and It was very threatening to people especially in the the body of a woman and the voice voice of someone who was so afraid to speak about it. And the voice of someone who had such stature in more mainstream political political movements and more mainstream political venues That you know was was very threatening to empower structures both economically and politically. I'm MINNASO- is at that time. Like many other radicals she became labeled as this very dangerous woman as a as an enemy within right well speaking of her brother Max Right who who is much more well known than she was you know she has a really interesting family dynamics growing up right yes whenever brothers dying when he was very young was he's seven years old is that Ah yes yes. Her brother Morgan And he died of scarlet fever which crystalise also had Although she's arrived at obviously but Morgan's death affected the family and and particularly affected her mother Moon Crystal absolutely worshipped was extraordinarily close to And you know kind of change. The family dynamic in a in a number of important ways ace but one of the you know the outcomes of this for crystal and Max Eastman was You know an an incredibly tight bonding with their mother. Crystal and Max Anna's Ford Eastman. Their mother formed a kind of a core of the family unit. Very close and you know had a kind of attachment and a kind of language for each other and a kind of communication with each other that bordered on a romantic attachments In the kind one of romantic language that you find in crystals letters with her mother in crystals letters later with her brother Max in some of the letters between anise Max as well L. really carries a a a very unusual emotional charge But they were they were seriously bonded together to the exclusion of some of the other members of the family. You know at the core of family where crystals Father Sam Eastman was very much on the margins. When in fact was kind of cast out of the house in many ways by crystals mother he you know He? was banished from her bed. After Max was born and over the years ended up piano sort of camping out and living literally living outside the house in their summer home their summer. COTTAGE UPSTATE NEW YORK. But so her father Um mm-hmm and also her older brother and status later called Ford Eastman also was kind of on the outs in the family. and so there were a lot of charged and difficult physical dynamics within the family caused by the central character of her mother whom she worshiped and the ways that she constructed of very tight inner loving triangle between herself her daughter her only daughter aunt her youngest son. Max Her father and I want to get back to her mother in a minute in it because her mother is a really really interesting character but her father they both are very supportive of crystals early ideas about feminism. Like even when she was a young girl else she would insist on the boys and girls in house or the girl she was the only only daughter or no having an equal amount of chores right which is very kind of I think progressive during that time you know during in the late nineteenth century but her mother mother and I just want to talk about this a bit because you mentioned that there is kind of this romantic overtones between within that family dynamic. The dynamic and I was reading through some of the letters in the book you recall letters and diaries and I was just curious if that was unusual for the time and her mother would write things like you are my life and no one has ever loved me as you do. I mean crystal ever expressed that as a burden or did you see it as problematic or was that just kind of I don't know all she understood stood relationship should be I think that she in her life She never expressed any problem with it in fact she adored her mother the final piece of writing that she ever published you're only autobiographical piece of writing. was called mother worship it was actually her only autobiographical piece of writing became a kind of biographical piece of writing writing about her mother And so she had you know an incredible sense of attachment almost a blurring or a merger With her mother's life in many ways nevertheless nevertheless I think in in in reading her life and an in studying her life that relationship with her mother. Did you know cause her to to. She's sort of form ideas and form a kind of emotional life that made it hard for her to work with precisely the other women with whom she was often working in many of the social movements particularly feminism. Obviously but Also there you know. Many of her colleagues in various progressive causes work kind of senior important important women in Atoms Florence Kelley Lillian Wald. I mean very important Progressive Activists Innovative Women and she had difficulty Often with them she had difficulty with boundaries. She had difficulty with attachments with loyalties early in her life when she first met Florence Lawrence Kelly She was working on the the Pittsburgh survey and starting to do the work that led to her work on workers compensation and I met Florence Kellyanne. Of course she respected her a lot and wrote a letter to her mother saying how much she respected her and yet compared her unfavorably to her own mother saying that Florence Kelley was just not as lovely miss her own mother I and I think in many ways you know. No woman ever quite measured up to her own mother Despite their accomplishments you know because of that feeling of emotional charge urge and that feeling of complete understanding and that feeling that her mother gave her that she crystal was this the rarest of possible human beings and who you know in in who she and only she crystal and only crystal could accomplish things with her vision that nobody else could and it you know it helped to make crystal have a difficult time collaborating. You know kind of working with other senior women I think and also in having perspective on her own vision to kind of ever compromise from is or ever reframe her perspective but she struggled with feelings of inadequacy right because of her mother's view of her is that true yes because of her mother's others view of heard because of her own view of her mother. Her view that her mother was you know was was so exceptional was so perfect. was so golden in in so many ways and it kind of those feelings. Those overwhelming feelings of love blinded her to some of the ways in which her you know. Her mother put undue pressure on her. The ways that her mother actually divided the family. That meant so much to her to keep together You know kind of banished. Her brother and her father to the outer reaches as you know to kind of darker colder part of the universe and you know the ways in which her mother depended on her To kind of rescue her and bring in her out of her mother struggled with I believe manic depression and She depended on crystal and told crystal she was depending on her to pull her out of her depressive episodes and often said that crystal and only crystal had the power to do it to save her to rescue her to save her life and these pressures Even though crystal never to my knowledge acknowledged them in any letter in any extant piece of writing they had to have weighed on her and certainly in reading some of her interactions in comments about other women in her life knowing the ways that she worked effectively with people and the times when she didn't I think there were ramifications from that relationship shipped even crystal herself did not recognize right well so she went off to college. Let's right which is where she I think she. I was introduced to you. Socialism I think it was at Columbia. Actually she called herself a social for the first time at Vassar college as an Undergrad. Yes breath cow that that inform her early ideas that led to this work in advocacy. I'll just kind of Emmy because our family was rather religious right so it seems like a departure departure. It doesn't seem to go in the direction from me. So I'm just curious about that. Yes Her family she was the daughter of two ordained congregational ministers and and certainly her family was religious in the structure of their lives Her mother became the really the family breadwinner and was quite a renowned minister in her time or now woman minister in her time with her mother became a doubter. became a moved eventually left the congregational faith and move to UNITARIAN ISM and eventually planned before she died to leave the church altogether Y- partly because of her her manic depression. I think and her sort of emotional. Travails She found it difficult to maintain her sense of faith Partly because she was such a searcher such a seeker that a lot of questions ends did not seem seem answered by her religious faith. Furthermore I think she struggled with the limitations that the faith generally assumed and and placed upon women and you know kind of other issues connected to her own life and her own experience of her identity for because you talked a lot about the role of the woman men in the Church and in the family and she used words like sacrifice pretty often so she seemed like quite a from this herself. And I'm a I would imagine that would informed wrestled to some extent absolutely Louis it. You know I really crystals socialist perspective certainly and definitely her feminism and definitely her antimilitarism Came same almost directly from her mother. Maximun wrote about the fact that an anti-war attitude was the was the family heritage. And what he meant by that was it it it came. You know from their mother's side certainly their father also You Know Sam. Eastman was was a pacifist and wrote an important pacifist brochure that was published by the American Union against militarism a organization. That crystal was one of the two main antiwar organizations crystal was involved with and a leader in. So it's not like he didn't hold those views but you know the stronger sense of inheritance and what really really shaped her politics and her you know her attitude toward the world was the impact and the input put From her mother so she graduates from college and she is looking for a job and so I think she applies initially to a law firm a position that she didn't get and she ended up taking a her first job with something that kind of teens the trajectory of her professional in her life and activism. Right she was hired to catalogue and report on workplace injuries. And and I just WanNa say that this was at the height of the industrial revolution where there were almost no worker protection laws and almost no child labor laws at this point right correct. Yes you know that was all of that. Labour legislation was sort of in the process of being formed and many of the activists that she lived and worked with beginning being in law school at Nyu. And she lived the Greenwich House settlement. And you know certainly extending through her work on workplace accidents and workers compensation you know. Were there were waves. Leaves of labor legislation that various organizations and groups and activists were trying to get Implemented and put into place but yes she crystal Eastman always always wanted to practice law even to the very end of her life. I would say the the last Numbers of years when she was mainly a working mother less so but all the way up through her antiwar activism and even into her years with the Liberator magazine. She wanted to be a lawyer. She believed in the court she. We saw a lot of hope in the course and she was always trying to test the principles of America often through the courts. However you know in the early in the early twentieth century the the legal profession resisted the entrance of women? More so than many other professions. You know even even medicine the legal profession was just not amenable and she was. I'm not able to find a job. She graduated second in her class from. Nyu Law School. One of the you know kind of first real incubators of women in the law at the time and she could not find find a job. She tried and tried and tried she had even after she had sat on this commission in New York. State that where she you know all but drafted the first serious serious worker's compensation law in the United States even after that she could not get a job practicing law but going back to when she first graduated from law school. She had to have a job. She did not come from money she Worked her way through all three of her degrees Through her vaster. Ba Ma in political economy basically sociology in Columbia at Columbia and her law degree at Nyu And upon graduation she had to have a job to support herself and when she could not you know initially find something in law she took a job with her friend. Paul Kellogg someone. She met through Greenwich House on met through Colombia. who was starting the Pittsburgh survey which she was a you know a huge turned to be a huge groundbreaking social science project looking at the city of Pittsburgh then really the industrial capital of the United States dates and examining kind of a multifaceted way? All these aspects of working class life and Eastman was assigned to do Industrial look at industrial austrial accidents. which as you say was a kind of a rising social problem or rising visibility in the United States because many other countries in the world were responding to workplace place accidents with legislation in the United States? They were you know. Legal Obstacles to doing so mainly You know illegal legal obstacle that her the legislation that she helped helped to draft and that New York State introduced bumped into later was the idea that essentially a corporation owned the Labor of its employees and and the state did not have the authority to intervene in that private labor contract. And you know. The struggle for Workers Compensation Station in New York and elsewhere in the country was to gain the standing the legal standing and to write the law in such a way as it could withstand constitutional challenges is to make workers compensation mandatory for companies and to spread out liability essentially to have what she proposed was that you know by all writes Industrial work is dangerous for everybody. And so by all rights those risks that everyday risks of doing work in an industrializing economy. Amy should be shared by the businesses by the workers and by the consumers as the law was established and as things were being practiced when she you know sort of took talk to. This work The employees who could be injured or killed on the job you know got next to nothing. Employers were really not responsible symbol for for those accidents and for those losses. Unless you know a worker could prove that essentially there was negligence on the part of the employer royer and furthermore could prove that no other worker involved had any any responsibility for the accident that occurred and so there were a lot of obstacles pulls to a worker many of them immigrants uneducated who even if they might have had the conditions to allow them to sue their employers for support after they were are injured. Probably wouldn't have had the clout and the knowledge and the ability right to seek legal representation to enter the legal system in your right this really. This really touched her. Based on a lot of writing about this at the time she was writing the report which is what she was hired for. She would say things like the families in the widows. You were left behind. They weren't really only interested in compensation they're interested in safety and she wrote about you know women dying in factory. Fire is in children and a lot of the immigrants which you mentioned some of them are regarding their underway. You Know What we consider underage workers today absolutely absolutely some of the boys. She called the man but they were really boys. who were working in? The you know Matt Running running this enormous dangerous machinery in industrial factories. You know could be fourteen fifteen. She related to them as children. You know you know from from an maternal point of view but also related to the loss to families in these days. When a a laborer died he was generally the only wage earner in the family or certainly the main earner in the family and the wife and children would be left absolutely destitute And with you know little or no prospects and so she really saw this as a holistic problem and just responded with her heart as well as her head to the the absolute injustice justice of of these huge growing profitable companies exploiting their workers like this and when they took their limbs you know when they took their bodies bearing next to no or no responsibility for helping those men and their families to survive. She wasn't the only person obviously he was working working on this issue. Right but the thing about it is that she wrote about it with a level of empathy that you didn't find with other people who are working on this from say like a legislative of perspective yes to my reach. She brought real heart. And as you say real empathy to these questions and One of the things that I really enjoyed about reading her important hornbook that preceded her work her appointment to this commission to work on workers compensation it was called work accidents and the law and this was the you know the published version of the report that she wrote for for Paul Kellogg and the Pittsburgh Survey and she you know not only went into these factories went into these minds interviewed these workers And you know. And saw their homes homes Really talked to them about their lives but after workers were injured she also went and talked to the families. She you know. She talked to the wives. She looked at their lives. She she wrote about the ways that these families you know tried to survive after the loss of their breadwinner right and their their father and their husband and wrote about the heroism of and really gave a full round kind of heartfelt picture of the tragedy and the abuse that these families were suffering at the hands of these corporations that basically you know could could chew up and spit out. Workers their lives their bodies their families with no responsibility she wrote about sometimes. The a small adjustment to something on a on a on a factory floor and a piece of machinery was well known and for for a you know a a negligible cost could have been repaired. But instead it maimed worker or killed one and then another and then another Thank you so much for listening. That concludes part. One of my interview with Amy Aronson above the life of Crystal Eastman even air next week discuss the latter part of Eastman's life including how she came to co found the ACLU. The electorate is independently created and produced by me. Jen Taylor skinner. And of course I'm the host but I also do all of the editing audio and graphics. You name it. It's on my plate so if you enjoyed this episode of the electorate Raton please help. The electric groped by subscribing just hit the subscribe button. And whatever APP you used to listen to podcasts also leave a review for the electorate on eighteen lastly type one final way to help. The electorate is by following the electorate on social media. That's at electorate on facebook instagram and twitter. Thanks thanks again for listening in until next time people could fight. uh-huh they own

Crystal Eastman crystal Eastman Paul Kellogg Florence Lawrence Kelly She Sam Eastman United States Pittsburgh Survey Eastman Smith Max Eastman ACLU America Liberator magazine Columbia Nyu depression Amy Eareckson Greenwich House Jim Taylor skinner Max Right
New Planet Vulcan announced / Duquesne Spy Ring sentenced - January 2

This Day in History Class

12:33 min | 2 months ago

New Planet Vulcan announced / Duquesne Spy Ring sentenced - January 2

"Hey everyone it's michelle williams. I love being able to share my story with you on my podcast checking game with michelle williams where my guests and i we give real as we share the ups and downs of our mental health journeys. And i love you to join me. Hey is gonna be your church and your turn up so listen to checking game with michelle williams every tuesday. A part of the black affect on the iheartradio app apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your cats ever wondered why there are two ways to spell donuts or why some people think you can find water underground just by wandering around with a stick believe it or not. This is stuff you should know. You know the podcast. With over a billion listens. It's now for your eyes so you can read it stuff. You should know an incomplete compendium. Mostly interesting things covers everything from the origin of the murphy bed. to wind. people get lost. Become the most interesting person you know. Now add stuff you should know dot com or wherever books are sold. Everyone everyone its eaves. Just wanted to let you know that. You'll be hearing episode for me and an episode from tracy wolf and today hope you enjoy the show. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm tracy wilson and it's january second honesty and eighteen sixty or bat. Joseph leverrier announced the discovery of a new planet and that planet was called vulcan. Vulcan however was not a thing. Here's a quick recap throughout human history. Astronomers and mathematicians have come up with a number of different models to explain how the solar system and the universe work and some of them have been way more farfetched than others. For example ptolemy thought the earth was at the center of the universe and that each planet was in the celestial sphere but the observed movement of the planets in the sky just did not line up with his whole model so he had a whole weird system in which every planet was also orbiting in. Its own little smaller orbit. This is called an epa cycle so this episode cling planet was moving around in this sphere. That also didn't match up to the observable movement of the planets in the sky so that's not even the whole explanation but we're gonna move on by the sixteenth century. Astronomers had figured out that the son was at the center of the solar system. not the earth. As ptolemy had thought and by the nineteenth century mathematicians and astronomers had also figured out calculations that could predict the paths of the planets orbit around the sun but there are still some unanswered questions like what was up with mercury. mercury like planets was moving in an elliptical orbit that orbits closest point to the sun is called the perihelion and mercury's perihelion moved just a little bit every time it orbited the sun that's normal all of the planets do this mercury's though wasn't doing it in exactly the way that was expected its perihelion wasn't shifting the correct amounts another thing that had been worked out by this point was gravity isaac newton's work on gravity hit informed all this astronomy and people had figured out how the planet's gravity affected the orbits of the planets around them but even taking into consideration the gravitational polls of the other planets in the solar system. Mercury was still behaving in a way. That didn't quite make sense. So leverrier came up with a hypothesis that there was another planet somewhere near mercury and that we just had not discovered it yet. What are the weird things about this hypothesis. Is that mercury can be seen with the naked eye so can venus. Which is the next planet out after mercury between mercury and earth so can other planets in the solar system so the idea of an undiscovered planet so close to our planet in with other planets that you can see with the naked eye. That just seemed a little suspicious but let's leverrier also had credentials. His math had been used to find the planet. Neptune and it turned out that an amateur astronomer had actually observed something an unknown object of some sort travelling in front of the sun. the skies name was edmond. Modeste less carbo. He made this observation on march twenty six eighteen fifty nine when he heard about lavar as whole hypothesis of this other planet he got in touch and sent him all of his notes and then after reviewing all of those notes on january second eighteen sixty leverrier the announcement all kinds of accolades followed for these two men and other people also reported seeing this little dot passing in front of the sun but their observations didn't exactly line up with the predictable course of planet and then the dot disappeared. There was no dot to be seen anymore. So they thought okay. This also is logical. It's just behind the sun and some smart folks got together and calculated when it was going to be visible again. That answer was in march or april but when march and april rolled around the planet didn't appear this led to a full on hunt for vulcan with all kinds of reports coming in of people seeing something passing in front of the sun. They weren't confirmed though. And the scientific community started to conclude that maybe there was no vulcan. there was not a real planet. Leverrier died in eighteen seventy seven and it turned out but it wasn't another planet's gravity polling on mercury. it was that the sun is so massive that space-time enlighten bend around it so when we observe mercury from earth. We're seeing it through all this distortion. We can think. Albert einstein for that knowledge came about following his theory of general relativity in nineteen fifteen. It is speculated that all those dots that people were observing passing in front of the sun where maybe just sunspots thanks to casey peg. Raymond chandler maze for their audio work on this show. You can subscribe to the stay in history class on apple podcasts. Google podcasts iheartradio app. Wherever you get your podcasts. And you can tune in tomorrow for the birth of an abolitionist. Hello everyone eve's here if you've been listening to the last several episodes and you know that i've been speaking to you from the comfort of my own home. I'm still at home and joined the beginning of the new year. But it's another day and you know that means there's more history to tell so. Let's get into another episode. The day was january. Second nineteen forty two thirty. Three members of a nazi spiring headed by frederick also known as fritz duquesne were sentenced to serve time in prison before the us entered world war two in december of nineteen forty one. Germany was already conducting espionage in the us. German spies had managed to gather important. Information from military and industrial sites williams. Feeble old was one of many people. Nazi germany enlisted to be spies on. Us soil see bald was born in germany and fought his birth country in world war one. After the war ended he moved to the us and became a citizen there. He worked in industrial in aircraft plants in the us and south america but when he took a trip to germany to visit his family in nineteen thirty nine. The nazis recruited him fruit threats and intimidation to work as a spy when he returned to the us concerned about the safety of his family in germany feeble attempt and started his training to become a spy. He made it back to the us in february of one. Thousand nine hundred. Forty using the alias harry sawyer and the codename tramp cbo seems like an ideal recruit but while he was in germany he told officials at the american consulate and cologne that he was willing to cooperate with the us. Federal bureau of investigation when he got back to new york city. He posed as a diesel engineering consultant. The f. b. i helped him set up a business office in manhattan where he would meet with spies who would give him information to pass the gestapo or nazi germany secret police. The office was decked. Out with hidden microphones cameras and two way mirror the f. b. i. Also built bolt a shortwave. Radio transmitting station on long island from their fbi. Agents sent messages to germany and received messages from the nazis through that communication line. Germany was unaware that their messages were being monitored by us agents. Once by who visited cbo's manhattan office was frederick jubeir. Duquesne who ran a large german inspiring do came with a south african board and a us citizen what they long history of hating the british as a german spy. Duquesne gathered information about us and british shipping records and us military technology. Over the course of several meetings. He revealed to see bowl plans for a type of bomb being made in the us and he told us c- bold how fires could be started in industrial plants. For sixteen months. The fbi worked with feeble to collect a ton of information on nazi. Spies working in the us. Mexico and south america in june of nineteen forty one. The fbi rounded up a band of nazi spies nineteen members of the spiring pled guilty that december. The remaining fourteen members were found guilty at trial and on january second the next year all thirty three people in the spy ring were sentenced to prison. Duquesne got in prison on espionage charges and a two thousand dollar fine for violating the foreign agents registration act. The act passed in one thousand. Nine hundred eighty eight requires anyone who does political or advocacy work on behalf of foreign entities to disclose their relationship with the foreign entity and any relevant activities in finances. After the german spies were convicted. The us government relocated siebel to california and gave him a new identity diagnosed with manic depression. He was committed to napa state hospital in nineteen sixty five. He died of a heart attack. Five years later. I'm eve jeffcoat and hopefully you know a little more about history today than you did yesterday. If you have any burning questions you can send them to us on facebook twitter or instagram at t. I ate the podcast. And if you prefer you could send them to us via email at this day at iheartmedia dot com. Thanks again for listening. And we'll see you here again. Same time tomorrow for more podcasts. From iheart radio is iheartradio. App apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen to your favorite shows guys. It's bobby bones. I host the bobby show. And i'm pretty much always sleepy because i wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later i get all my friends together. We get into a room and we do a radio show. we are alive. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world if he possibly can and we look through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country. Artists are always stopping by hang out and share their lives and music too so wake up with a bunch of my friends. I ninety eight point. Seven w. mcu in washington dc or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio app.

michelle williams tracy wolf tracy wilson Joseph leverrier germany us Modeste lavar casey peg apple Vulcan ptolemy fritz duquesne isaac newton fbi carbo Duquesne epa edmond harry sawyer
An Interview with Disney Executive Chairman Bob Iger

Back to Biz with Katie and Boz

1:01:05 hr | 5 months ago

An Interview with Disney Executive Chairman Bob Iger

"Hey, it's suppose my Saint John after these last few months. I'll cooked up. I'm so ready to ReDiscover the road actually all the roads the ones that take me to the beach to the mountains to the country club. If you're eager to do the same try out the Mazda CX 30 from the Innovative features to the unique engineering to the Sleek exterior. You're going to fall in love with all of Mazda's premium. Cuvs. Go to Mazda. Usa.com slash to learn more about the entire Mazda SUV lineup an available finance options. I'm Katie Couric and welcome to a bonus episode everyone of back to this with Katie and Bows only it's just me for this month. Don't worry though. Both and I are cooking up some ideas off will be back to business together before too long. In the meantime. I'm really happy to share a very interesting conversation. I had with Disney's executive chairman. Bob Iger Bob has spent more than 40 years working for companies that are now part of Disney in 2005. He took over a CEO and transformed the Beloved brand into a global Powerhouse through a series of bold aquisitions Inc, Pixar Marvel and lucasfilm all joined the mouse house during his tenure may be the most impressive part though is that he did it all while gaining a reputation is one of the nicest most respected guys around he told the story of his remarkable life and career in his recent Memoir the ride of a lifetime and stepped down as CEO and February of this year. What time? Didn't know at the time though was that there was one more unexpected turn. He'd have to navigate before his ride was over shortly after his resignation the pandemic head and the world's changed seemingly overnight particularly for Disney a company built on in person experiences like theme parks movies Sports and cruise lines. Bob Iger is back in the saddle again and is leading Disney through perhaps the most challenging time of it's nearly One Hundred Year history. We talked about how he's managing this moment along with all the other song twist and turns in his career and also a lot about what shaped him and what makes a good leader. My husband was so cute this morning. He said Bob's book was the best business book. He'd ever read. He said it was so full of humanity empathy and humility. And I thought that was such a nice thing to say that I wanted to pass it along. Thank you. That's very nice. I must say I've been I've been really humbled by reaction to it including Bill Gates through this summer shows. There's one of the five books. You have to read this summer, which totally surprised me it's very nerve-wracking to put yourself out there and you know be so vulnerable and exposed right? Yes, and I was anxious about it. I was very anxious about it. What were you worried about? I was worried about feeling to sell or or looking too self-important your face on the cover of the book like who who has a right to do that, you know, and I was worried about it just not resonating. I tried to tell stories that were interesting but who knew and still people actually read them whether they would be or not but more than anything. I just was self-conscious about it and didn't want to appear to be bigger better more important than I really really wash and blowing your own horn. Well, I think you have every right to do that. And that's one of the reasons I think people gravitate to you Bob because of your humility. So let's talk a little bit about your careers about the book some personal stories as well. I know you postponed your retirement or times since 2013, but in February of this year you finally dead. Down is Disney CEO. Then the pandemic hit take me through your decision to take back the reins and take on what certainly will be I would guess some of the biggest challenges of your career. Well, I I made a decision after spending almost fifteen years as CEO to step down believing that life change has real value to companies that you can stay too long and I've seen that happen to others and I didn't want it to happen to me. And so I was intent on going off of what I believe was the right time and also going out feeling that I had accomplished a lot and not tempting fate either that invariably so all of the good things can you know quickly be replaced by bad things like who knew other way and so in November I articulated that to the board and stuck to it off. Plan was for me to focus just on the creative side of our business believing that the best thing I could do for my successor would be to leave the company with a very rich pipeline of great movies and television shows and Theme Park attractions. And like it just seemed like a great plan and then the pandemic it and we decided really as a board that we would stay the course that I was not going to step back into the CEO role and I really have not done that. I know you mentioned taking back the reins. My goal was really to focus on the creative side as I just mentioned and also work to make sure that my successor was successful and I really haven't done anything differently in that regard because the pandemic is the biggest crisis that the company has ever faced. Of course, he would turn to me for more support than anything else and and advice and I wouldn't in any, you know way want to abandon him or the khumbu. In an hour of our you know, basically, you know our biggest need so I didn't take back the reins but I made sure I was there for him in what were the hard Choice most difficult times brand new CEO. So I I've I haven't left which is which in the intention was that I wouldn't I've mostly stuck to the plan which is bulb on the creative and help him succeed as he as time has passed and he's gotten more comfortable in this chair during a crisis. He's relied on me less and less money in that regard. It's it's working just fine, but he knows that and the company knows that I'm there for them. You know, should they need it? So you're making it clear you're not running the show, but are you speak they'd sort of your days still focused on Disney business. I'm spending my days focused on Disney's creative business, and we're there are huge decisions table. Made that affect the company, you know in profound ways, you know Bob chapek who's my successor consults with me on those issues. I am still chairman of the board. So I have a role to play there. But the day-to-day operation of the company say for its creative processes is is his responsibility to Disney was so exposed during this pandemic obviously with so many businesses built on in person experiences, Bob you're talking about theme parks and sports and movies and cruise life. So, how do you even start managing? What a nightmare this is very difficult. And the first thing we had to do was to admit that things were going to get shut down in some cases. We did so proactively where we made decisions Disneyland was one of those we just had to shut it down before any government said you must shut down in other cases we wage. Kind of either ordered two or strongly suggested that we shut down and you just have to accept those decisions and and the reality that not only the country but the World Cup was so exposed to a disease that it hadn't really seen before and then when when you know one business after the other basically closed its doors we had to immediately look at the financial underpinning of the company the health of its employees how we were going to manage. You know, what would have would would would normally have been kind of normal processes which is profits and losses and expenses etcetera and and people under circumstances that we had could never anticipate. So it was it's almost hard to describe but it's an all-hands-on-deck approach. All Senior Management had to be involved. I'm a big believer in times like this to you know, quote Churchill about keeping, and carrying on but I'm off A big believer in Candor and not in any way ignoring reality, which is really important which is looking everybody and I and said and saying this is the toughest job circumstance or circumstance the companies ever faced. We are Disney we are going to get through this. I don't know when we don't know when but we will and we ran together and there are things they're going to have to be addressed that will be tough. But that's the reality of of our lives today since you're a big believer in Candor a lot of businesses and leaders like you and others have had to really fill a vacuum of national leadership in the in the course of this crisis and I'm curious of what you think of the leadership that is coming out of the government right now or lack thereof. How would you assess it as someone who knows very well how to deal with with crisis situations Well, I've tried not to be too openly critical of either the president or the administration but I think the facts speak for themselves that it was it's now very clear to us, but I think it should have been a clear at the beginning that the impact of this was going to be significant and had to be dealt with swiftly. And while I realized there's a need to act, as we just discuss wage. I think the need to face the truth and two in facing the truth to contend with it in effective ways is critical Edge. I don't believe looking back on this now over 6 months period of time that is a country we did that. I think it would have been very important early on to call it what it was off which is a wide-scale pandemic and to take action immediately to contend with it. I'm trying I'm trying not to be too directly critical because you know, I wasn't was a situation I had to contain. Although it was a situation the Senior Management of the Walt Disney Company had to pretend and how do you think that you all did did it differently than the US government? I mean what what things did you put into practice that the for example the president or even the coronavirus task force did not well we shut down right away. Obviously that had a big help. It was a big help page where we had any business being conducted. We resorted to very very strict a very very strict hygiene regime which included social distancing Mass Choir hand-washing, you know cleaning in the Extreme as a for instance left. No stone stone unturned tried to get access to a rapid wide-scale testing. I think the whole country's had issues with that very very difficult to do so testing never became a true solution, but we basically devoted significant resources to wage. For the week could have access to it could make the situation better which resulted in some continued productivity most of our production T and movies was shut down, but I'm not able to create, you know enough work from home to continue on we created with the NBA the bubble in in Orlando to enable the national basketball season to continue which was extraordinary that might be a good example of throwing resources at a problem as opposed to just saying, hey the problem doesn't exist butt Shack and we've been managed to reopen every one of our parks around the world except for California under circumstances that are extraordinary and not Optimum. But but we've been open in Shanghai for quite a long time now, were you worried about Bob reopening of Disney World in Florida in Orlando in July despite the fact that coronavirus cases worth Hiking in the state at the time. I was worried and I think it was unfortunate. We made a decision to open then end to recall thousands and thousands of our employees to do so God created momentum and then there was a spike in cases in Florida. So the timing wasn't great from a headline perspective, but the initiatives that we were in the box that we took to reopen were so strict in terms of protecting our own people and our guests that in reality what was going on around us was less of an issue as long as we were hearing to the regime that we created and we've had no problems. It's incredible. What's been done. Of course, we're limiting severely the number of people that are in that are let in and when you come in there restrictions, but we're adhering to them and the people who are visiting are adhering to them and it's been working. It's been working in Shanghai and it's been working in in Japan wage. Tokyo and we're not open in California yet. We're we're actually surprised and somewhat disappointed that we haven't been able to probably good time to go to a theme park. You don't have to wait too long to get it sure. Oh no, but if you get a churro, you can't walk around and eat it because we require mask-wearing. So we've actually we've actually set up alcohol snack is owns where you can stand apart from others and your churro or your popcorn or your ice cream or your turkey leg weird Turkey Leg, of course and not put anybody on Jeopardy. I don't think I don't think turkey legs don't transmit code with fortunately. So yeah, the remains robust we'll have more with Disney's executive chairman Bob wage or right after this. Hey, it's suppose my st. John and you know with all that's been happening lately. I've hardly driven anywhere and the grocery store doesn't count. I've been missing the open road and I'm so ready to get back out there and discover at all. If you want to do the same and you're looking for a new ride check out a Mazda Mazda has the most incredible CUV line-up, including the first-ever cx30 with available with active all-wheel drive with off-road traction assist it intuitively response to the way you like to drive and the exterior is something else is so distinct and Sleek that it actually looks like it's moving while sitting still but wait till you see the inside so minimal no fuss everything right where it should be so I can focus on what's ahead like the beach, you know, I'm a beach girl God Baskin that vitamin D for all this. Melanin Mazda has more iihs top safety pick plus models than any other brand as of June 2020 go to Mazda USA dead. Slash I heart to learn more about the entire Mazda SUV lineup an available finance options chances are you've heard of Salesforce? But if you're like a lot of people you don't know exactly what they do to put it simply Sales Force brings companies and customers together not physically together. Of course, they bring you together digitally, which if you haven't watched the news lately is pretty important these days. So how does it work with Salesforce different employees across your different departments all have one single shared 360 degree view of each of your customers. That means two things first, whenever your customers talk with someone from sales marketing customer service or it they feel like they're talking to one uniting a company not a series of disconnected departments, which is important and second. It means that your employees have everything. They need to make your customers. Happy no matter where they happen to be working wage. Like in their living room or their laundry room where their bath you get the picture customer happiness from anywhere. So that's how Sales Force brings companies and customers together makes sense to learn more visit salesforce.com. Welcome back. Here's more of my conversation with Bob Iger. When do you think things are going to get back to normal? I mean, do you kind of look on the Verizon and thank our is it is it ever going to be what it was it? Look everyday life, right? Oh, my sense is that the only way we return to some semblance of normalcy is with a vaccine the widespread meaning widely available effective vaccine until that happens. It doesn't appear that steps that have been taken which is largely social distancing mask-wearing would be enough juice to cause people to return to some semblance of normal and you know every day we read headlines today. There was one about Johnson & Johnson going to town. I saw that the first two thousand people and you know, my my mood lifts immediately when I see some of that but I think that's what it will take. I believe that Forced mask-wearing and social distancing and another forms of hygiene will enable more and has enabled more but unfortunately we've seen either people not believing in the effectiveness of that or just basically in a being defiant about it. Yeah, when you see that just just I mean, I don't get it. Does that make you scratch your head and think WTF? Yes, it does. It's hard to believe people would be defiant when they're putting their lives in other people's lives in Jeopardy, which is exactly what's happening. And I don't think that point has been made enough and science I think has proven that mask-wearing for instance can be a very effective tool for preventing the spread of this disease. I just don't know why people don't accept that. You're Wise from their news outlets Bob. That's why and because we have a president who doesn't wear a mask off. That's why well roll positive role models would help for sure. I look we're we're a country of individualism individuals and freedom. I just spent some time in in Croatia. It's interesting because no one seems to have any problem whatsoever adhering to the rules. There are signs everywhere and I did not see the other than people walking around outside social distance where there was not not one hundred percent mask-wearing you were not allowed into any building including small shops restaurants et cetera without wearing one and I didn't see anyone defying that let's talk about some good news. Shall we and that is the Disney plus is already kicking ass gratulations. I like doing a podcast. I can say things like kicking ass, and we're not on the Today Show and you've racked up more than sixty million subscribers. Yep. November so congratulations, how do you think streaming is going to to change the business model of traditional networks? Because you were at the helm of you know, you'll see for so long and I'm curious now, especially now the streamers are doing kind of AD models as well and not just pure screaming I think technology package thoroughly disrupted the way in which people consume media and entertainment it began really with the internet and you know what people were accessing weather was short form video or news headlines or whatever and it is quickly spread to all forms of media in terms of the disruptive nature of it. And the speed of disruption is only increase. It hasn't slowed at all. And what we're seeing is a consumer that is exercising far more Authority because that's what technology is enabling them how they watch things one number. Watch when they watch them or consume them where they consume them and how much they pay for them. All of those things are things now that the consumer is having more of an impact on then the distributor in the Creator and what we have to do is what we did is a company and I think with the industry's to do is you need to pay heat to that you need to go and go where the consumerism you can't force the consumer to go where you are anymore. You have to go to them and what I mean by that is you have to provide them with the experience that they want and these days it has to be flexibility off. What device do you watch on where to watch it has to be flexibility in terms of packages of product that they buy they don't want to buy things that they never want to consume as a for instance that obviously affect pricing timing is a big deal. They want to watch things when they want to watch them now want to watch it on this. Yeah this or off This year whatever, you know, we could name a bunch like they still watch on a lot of fix screens on the wall. We call them television sets off is and now their monitors I think screens it will still do that. But but then how they how they they get the product to put on both screens is more in their control than some network television schedulers control. Right? But what we decided to do is first of all similar to what we were talking about earlier about recognizing a problem in dealing with it is we recognize the disruptive nature of all this the business was never going to return to normal. It had changed forever would continue to and unless we change we were going down quickly become irrelevant and and unprofitable. So say you're a Visionary guy. Why didn't you get into it earlier Bob? Well, I you know, that's easier said than done. I don't mean I mean to sound defensive about it cuz we got into it early enough in that we are we're doing fine. We as to the case with a lot of life in businesses, you have a big profitable business to continue to protect and to and to mind right off of the ability and you're measured is a lot of responsibilities associated with that with shareholders and customers and employees and board of directors to continue to deliver as much profitably as possible much profits as possible from the businesses you're in town. And so it's not an easy thing to Pivot to a new business that is not only not going to be as profitable right away, but will be directly disruptive to the business as you are in right and then in addition to that is having the wherewithal to do it not just financially but the technological wherewithal and the Personnel wherewithal meaning the right people and the right technology, which we all dead. We ended up having to acquire and it wasn't until we did that. We brought a platform called bamtech from Major League basement wasn't until we did that that we really had the confidence that we had the technology platform to deliver what we wanted. So first came the admission that there was disruption and we had to change saying came the decision to disrupt ourselves and go for third came down position with the technology to basically power at all and then fourth came creating content for that after we articulated the vision to Wall Street and then last came execution. Yeah, you know, I think I think The Balancing Act is such an important thing, you know, when I was in traditional news media, I kept on pushing to do more digital content to really try to convince people as early as 2006 when I went to CVS. There was so much resistance because I think it's very hard for people to wrap them around to different business models the latter which wage May actually hurt the former and then there's so many there are so many barriers to accompany disrupting itself. The innovator's Dilemma is very very real life that it's everything from compensation to just ingrained habits to you know, protective measures to keep a traditional business going. We do tend wage typically to try to preserve the past more than we should and in doing so it often can get in the way of the future. I'm just curious if you've talked to Jeffrey katzenberg about quivey because that's been a tough road to hoe as they say starting this new service the pandemic hits and dead people don't seem to necessarily, you know want to watch these short films on their phones. Have you talked to him and in a pivot? I have talked to him and his vision was for sure. Or form product to be consumed on mobile devices only quote in the white space of people's lives while they're commuting in between everything else. Right? I think because of the pandemic thought that obviously that opportunity evaporated and and and consumption patterns changed completely. I think that's one of the issues. They also think he entered a Marketplace that was for more competitive offer more difficult than he had envisioned. Well live to see another day. I don't know. I don't I haven't spoken to him very spoken with him very recently, but I don't know hashtag bummer, right? Yes, it's a bummer as there are a lot of Promise the bummer for him. But you know, yes. Yeah. Well Jeffrey will do something else. I'm sure because he's that kind of person I wanted to ask you one other streaming question about a quote you made recently what Netflix is doing is making content to support a platform. We're making content to tell great stories. It's very different. Okay, Bob. I have to I have to quibble with that quote because you think of movies like Roma you think of serious like unbelievable. I was the executive producer of that. So Shameless plug you think of you know, the Irishman you think of cheer that sounds like pretty good storytelling to me Bob. Yes, I think Netflix is made a lot of great stories or or bought a lot of great stories. Sure. I know when I said that I think what what I meant was they created the platform is filled it with a volume of Storytelling that is much larger than than the volume that we have on Disney plus home and because they really began not as a Content company, but as a platform which is very different. We began as a storytelling in a Content company and then created the platform. So I did not mean that's a pretty well though. Don't you think they've pivoted you think I'm very impressed with Netflix and what they've accomplished absolutely and I'm I'm a big consumer of it and I enjoy it off and I think to your point there's a lot of high quality product on there, but I think what I was what the observation I was making is the Genesis of their business is different than the Genesis of ours birth. It it was not meant I'm very you were dissing you were to see Netflix light and and frankly. I've spent my life trying to avoid either worrying about a criticizing our competition for just can't do anything about them. Yeah. I mean, you've got that reputation as being such a nice person and how do you lead a company and maintain your niceness Bob? I mean, is that is that tough? I mean, I don't know how people do it because you've gotta be direct you've got to deliver bad news. You've gotta do all kinds of things that knowledge doesn't necessarily go with right. I'll ask because when you said bad news, I started my career before I started at ABC 46 years ago, by the way as a young man in in a town in Upstate New York called Ithaca and the weather in Ithaca to Great town. I don't I don't want to get in trouble for dissing. Oh God don't see anything neat about it the kebab. And the weather is rough can be really rough there and fickle and straighten once said to me that being a Weatherman in Ithaca was great training cuz it taught me how to give people bad news. That is true. That's a good line. Look I I've tried to be who I am. I try to treat people fairly. I try to have empathy. I've learned lately that I haven't had enough of it. There's more there's more or more empathy to be either learned or had I tried to be kind and I think that's an important quality in a leader. It doesn't mean you're nice all the time. It doesn't mean you're always delivering good news. It doesn't mean you're not either getting confrontational or having a disruptive effect on someone else's life. But I just try in the process to respect people as who they are. And again, I think kindness is different than niceness. The kindness is recognizing the human being and everybody and never forgetting that never forgetting that that person that you're firing or that person that you're giving bad news to or that person that they you are you managing under tough circumstances is still a person. What is niceness? Well, I think if you're try to be night being nice means avoiding confrontation and sometimes avoiding the truth and I think it can get in the way of effective leadership kindness is different stay tuned for more of my conversation with Disney's executive chairman. Bob Iger when we continue. Welcome back everyone hears more of my conversation when I get a little more up-close-and-personal with Bob Iger. You write in your book right of the lifetime about your dad and how he suffered from manic depression and was tormented By self-doubt Appointment throughout his life, which I don't know if you're like me and you know, it's it's hard to it's hard to say something like that about your father. But but it really did shape you found so many ways didn't it Bob? Yes very much. So his manic depression was profound and something I was aware of it wasn't known as manic depression off but something I was aware of at a very young age. I'm talking about probably before I even turned ten. I was the oldest son of a younger sister the close-knit family, but it was just in a small house. It's hard to avoid mood swings and and I saw a lot of them and I also saw the impact that those mood swings had not just on the family but on him Ice and his own self esteem and his ability to hold a job in how we dealt with friends and others and it was hard. I think it was booked in the office and I preferred not to have had that in my life, but I think it helped form me and definitely toughened me up. Some ways forced me to be both more resilient and sometimes more independent. By the way. He was a loving father giving father. He truly appreciated who I was and what I became and he exhorted me to do better all the time and opened my eyes to all sorts of things in life, like music and and literature and politics and just generally being worldly. And so I have a lot of that I wrote about him honestly because I felt that I had a there was enough about him that I still really appreciated. And so it was not in any way meant to sound critical of him or to demean him in. Anyway, he passed in 2011 that has been gone for a while. I was able to see your off your incredible success and did he did he get a kick out of it? He did that was that was a bone of contention with the two of us because he got too much of a kick out of it. And I told him that what do you mean I used to have a bet with my sister. That would be went someplace else. This is leading Our Lives. How long would it take him to let the whoever we were a waiter or someone know who I was he lived my life. I currently in that regard and I think he he derived his own self esteem from his son's success and that made me feel that embarrassed me. Yeah, and I told him that he knew that I would get mad at him. I wish he were still around so I could get mad at him about that. I got would get mad. Why do you have to tell the waiter that I'm the CEO of the Walt Disney Company wage? It has nothing to do with the pasta dish that we're just ordering when my father would go get his prescription from the drugstore and the birth. Pharmacist would say are you are you Katie Couric's father? He would say no. She's my daughter. That's a great line. I wanted to ask you about you mentioned being a weatherman. You did want to become Walter Cronkite one day. I'm really sorry. I beat you to the punch that exactly but why did you give up on a career in television news Well, I studied television of a Communications and media in college. I wanted and Walter Cronkite as you off some of our your your consumers are older listeners. Yes, you know was American Icon when most trusted man in America, I think he was considered at one point those were the days is evening news and and as you know a very very special in terms of his role in our lives growing up in our country club. And it was now there's nothing romantic about that that but I I I just fell in love with television news. I think really through watching CBS News and that array of great contributors from Charles kuralt to Rodger Mudd, you know, we we could go on and on that group of people that was just so special and I started out I mentioned earlier on camera as a weatherman and a feature news reporter and you know, when you do those things in small markets you move up and up and up all your trajectory is a little different than others, I guess in some ways but and you take a bigger Market a bigger Market ultimately you hope to get to the big Network. Well, I started at the ripe old age of twenty-three and I had some other opportunities to go to bigger markets, but I I I didn't have the confidence in myself to convince myself that I would end up becoming Walter Cronkite dead. I just didn't think I was good enough and I don't know whether it was feedback that I was getting or was just being more self-aware, but I lacked the Confidence and the presence and you know that Mojo I guess that it takes to do that and so I pivoted and got a job essentially a production assistant at ABC in nineteen seventy-four I ended up working on the Harry Reasoner Evening News Were You There When Barbara was there before Barbara and then Barbara came off before Barbara? That was a lot of fun for her. Yes. Yes. I remember that. Well, I say funny story about that was I was asked when after Barbara Walters thoughts. I was asked to take something to her dressing room and I knocked on the door and there was no answer. I knocked again. There was no answer. So I walked in and Barbara was there fully dressed. I would sit by the way that I am going to say shoot know and I was really taken aback as this young Dakshin person living some you Miss Walters and I started the back my way out. She said no, no, no. Stop telling me what your name. Is and what do you do and I told her my name and what I did when nice to meet you from then on she called me Jim and it doesn't show my birth and president of the network. I think they discovered that his name was I think calling you the wrong name all these years. Will you do have a funny story in your book about them sent out to buy Listerine for Frank Sinatra? That must have been incredible. I mean, I'm such a Sinatra fan. I never met him but wow, that must have been so exciting job. You did a live concert performed a live concert at Madison Square Garden called The Main Event in October of 74 produced by a Jerry Weintraub became a famous producer and roone Arledge choose then had a baby seat Sports and I worked on that ABC did it in Primetime and among the high-end jobs that I had to perform was to bring go out to a drugstore and wage. Manhattan and buy Listerine and delivered to his dressing room and knocked and some big security guard answered. Yeah kid, you know, it's one of these things kid, so mr. Sinatra's Listerine and it was about to take it. I heard Sinatra's voice in the background and he said hold on 1 second off. And what's your name? I said Bob, where are you from? I think I said, I can't remember I said Brooklyn or I was born in Brooklyn, I grew up in a town called Oceanside and he handed me a Chris bought a hundred dollar bill and it's interesting cuz I got as part of the working on the show he gave everybody on this is a sign of the time to get everybody on the crew a gold cigarette lighter month instead love frank on it. I still have I still have the cigarette lighter. That's I hope you still have that cigarette lighter. I hope you still have that $100 bill off. Dollar bill right away. I got him to sign it. You know. Well, I think you knew at the time. It was Frank Sinatra. Come on. Bobby wasn't like, I remember I remember that right at the edge of the stage when he was performing and who was sitting there, but but Walter Cronkite, And the audience that's no money at Lindsay. Who was the mayor of New York and Robert Redford handsome mayor of New York Redford who who was also pretty handsome one thing in your book. That's very clear. As you would not be where you are today Bob without without your mentors. Can you tell me the role they played in your life and I'd love to hear who you haven't earned paid it forward to who you have mentored and how I was really lucky Katie. I worked for some signs of our business and people who are really famous wage their accomplishments and the ability to kind of work at their feet so to speak with basically what I was doing. Yeah was extraordinary. So the first would be roone Arledge who was a very well-known television executive who kind of the father of ABC Sports and a real innovator and a risk news really came out of news too and a huge risk taker and a birth. Storyteller and and as I said an innovator and and a perfectionist show man, I would add box into and I work for room for ten years and he works near me for 10 years, which is very interesting and we sort of switched roles in some way and he was good by the way about working for me. Although there were moments when I had to remind him off the change the little more than anything from ruin the ability to take big risks the ability to think big be theatrical and last name be a perfectionist don't ever accept mediocrity. If you've got any resources left to make something that is good great do it and it's interesting how often people sometimes Settle For Less Than Jake either because they perceive that they're out of time or they're exhausted or money's an issue or whatever and not that money shouldn't be an issue, but he keeps telling me that there's always room to roam. For improvement to to make something that you're making better and I love that and then I work for two gentlemen who ran Capital Cities ABC named Tom Murphy and Dan Burke and Tom still survive. I still check in with him every once awhile consummate businessman. But what I mean by that is with great integrity. So not only they teach me business. They took taught me how to conduct business to walk away and never compromising from an Integrity perspective or judgment perspective. I wish was very valuable during a formative period in my life. I started working for them when I was thirty-four. And I work for them till Disney bought us in nineteen ninety five. And then lastly I worked for Michael Eisner for ten years and Michael was incredible in terms of his the the dead ambidextrous nature of his creativity. He had creative instincts about Theme Park attractions and parades and hotels to television series two books to Motion Pictures and he taught me to one of the language of those businesses. I only knew the language of Television. He told me to have a set designers I and assessing creativity when it came to the theme parks and he chews quite a perfectionist. So I was I was lucky and what and and I'm grateful to them to this day but it also taught to value of mentorship cuz and and I've learned even more about its value in the last six months because clearly mentorship is both an inexpensive and a very very efficient Way of enabling people to have more opportunity and when we talk about diversity and inclusion we talking about we talk about giving people more opportunity a mentor can pull a big role in that and so since I stepped into the Chairman's role, but I was mentoring in before that. I have devoted more and more time to people giving myself to them and it's kind of interesting. I've collected a group of people some of whom by the way. I've never met except via Zoom. Yeah, and they include Chris Paul who is point guard in the NBA will change will be a Hall of Fame point guard present the NBA Players Association that mentorship became a friendship am entering some NFL players who are trying to create a business that provides better Financial Acumen and access to better Investments for young players a mentoring other people at the Walt Disney Company. I've got a I'm doing some mentorship of woman who started a a really great small dog. In the Cosmetic space online direct-to-consumer and people have just reached out and either I read your book and I'd love some advice or I work in your company and I'd love to talk more about who I am and and I've tried to be really generous. I've had to say no a bit cuz my schedule has gotten complicated, but I'm probably mentoring. I don't know six or seven people right now is that means so much. I'm sure to them and it'd be great to just Mentor somebody at the beginning of their career to didn't play for the NBA or the NFL that just you know, that would be a fun job on a fun thing for you to do. I mean, can you imagine how excited somebody who's twenty-five years old and you know, I I always try to open the doors for people who have no contractions, you know whose father didn't go to school with their Uncle, you know, and all that stuff because I think it perpetuates this, you know elitism that we that that needs to be destroyed. So badly so find somebody who's like twenty four five and who would never in a million years have access to somebody like you that would be so awesome and I'll take that's good advice wage. I won't put an advertisement out about that Abigail Disney, you know, as you know recently or some point gave a critique of the Stark pay Gap that exists in many corporations including Disney and she kind of pointed a finger at you and said Bob Iger is kind of a nice guy and everybody around him or nice people what has become thought of is normal and the kind of thing. Nice people do isn't nice and somebody has to say the emperor is wearing no clothes. Somebody just has to say it. I you know, I think she was talking about the fact that you earn a thousand times more than the average Disney employee and you know, you've talked about this before Bob, you know, you have a salary around 66 million dollars, but you're not, you know, this is kind of a trend your name. The only CEO has been criticized for this at a time when income inequality and by the way, I've been criticized to for the salaries I've made in the past but at a time wage income inequality is so so intense, you know, how do you think about that? How do you think about the the kind of wealth a lot of CEOs have a long wait it and the salaries that they're making just philosophically. Well, I think it's a it's a very complicated subject. But I do think that the pay Gap that exists in America more importantly the opportunity that people have in our country opportunities are not as abundant not as great as they should be and I think that's becoming more and more real more and more profound and more and more of a problem than I look. I don't want to get into details about how I've been compensated except to say that even quoting numbers sometimes as can be misleading. That's true. I get a salary and I get bonuses that are based on the performance of the company and I get stock that is based on the performance as a company and the stock when they're granted. They don't necessarily pay out in the manner in which the headlines Mason's just put that all aside. I work in a business that has compensated CEOs very well and my compensation actually has been consistent with the conversation of others in the business. That I work in I happen to have run the largest most complex Media company and one could argue the most successful that said I am very very mindful of the fact that people today young people today. Don't feel they have the kind of opportunity that perhaps my generation of people felt they had whether the by the way whether there are people of color or whether just off people starting out that as they look ahead. They just don't have the optimism that I had that I would ultimately have access to if I if I performed well, I would ultimately have access to much more and that's a big problem and I think that's a it's a leadership problem in America. I think it's a it's an infrastructure problem in America meaning. I just think the system is not serving of people well anymore. What advice would you give young people Bob? You know, you have an eighteen-year-old son, you know, what would you say to people starting out who, you know have stars in their eyes off? with left to to work at a company like Disney or being media of any kind, you know, look we're we've been lucky in that in the past. We've managed to expand our our wage employee ranks obviously depend demek is having a negative impact on that on that. You know, I've always believed that that people need to determine what it is. They're interested in em, and and meaning meaning know what your passion is in terms of how you want to spend your time. So a lot of time that we do devote to work. It's an extent you have that luxury by the way and pursue your passion was bigger and when you're given opportunity to pursue and you've got to work really hard, I think one of the things that I'm sure knowing you as long as I do know is that the values of hard work beats just about almost anything else showing up and being willing to put in the time and the energy and the commitment is the best possible. Opportunity but even then we know there are people that are willing to do that that don't get to kind of opportunities that you know, we were afforded a we'd like all people to have but I don't think there's anything better than more effective than hard work. And I think if you pick something you love to do, it doesn't feel like work. I mean, it sounds like a College Commencement Address to probably should have given people but I'm giving one in Marion as we were talking. I'm thinking I got to start writing some of this down. You know, what is the hardest things in the world to do give a Commencement Address particularly after we've all seen and heard Steve Jobs. Oh my gosh, especially now, especially now and Steve Jobs. That's right. And you guys were became such good friends. He confided in me you what was going on with his illness, you know cancer is something that's touched my life. So profoundly as well and I what was that conversation like between them? And Steve if if you feel like it wasn't too private. Well, I described it in book. We were buying Pixar and we in fact that signed a deal over announcing it at Pixar and off about an hour before the announcement, which is a big deal back then a 7.3 billion dollar deal. I'll see he has to go for a walk and we left the building and picks her and walked around the Pixar ground. There was a bench and he sat down and put his arm around me. He had had cancer that was known for the world some couple of years earlier. If I recall and had announced that he would have been cured thought it was an operation and he said to me I'm going to tell you something and only my wife and my doctor know and he told me that his cancer had returned home. And I said, why are you telling me this? And you said because he's giving me a chance to back out of the deal. He was worried that that the knowledge of him having cancer or the fact that he did. Change my Outlook on buying fixer and I had no ability to consult anybody else. And as I looked at my watch we were then about 30 minutes till we're making this big announcement here. I am on a bench with Steve Jobs not only horrified by the news that he's just giving me even though we hadn't become closed yet, but thinking trying really hard to process as related to what my responsibilities were and I ask more questions. You told me among the things that he was on I should know was that he was intent on being at his son reads High School graduation and I asked when is Thursday I think you said four years and that was kind of enough for me. There was a a Steve had an optimism almost till the very end. I don't think at the very end, but that I'm going to beat this they're always be a new drug or the next drug or his will to survive and it was infectious and knowing how he was approaching this wage. Give me more confidence to just go forward and that's what we did. Yeah, I live with that secret for quite a long period of time. I think that's the way that people people have to be optimistic if they're if they're going to live out whatever time they have left and the best possible way and I think that's wrong. That's the best choice to make personally. And and that's yeah. Anyway, I'm thinking about my husband, but I know it touched you very very personally and very profoundly, I know had a very young age to with young kids. Yeah. Yeah. I imagine that you can relate I'm writing a lot about that in in the book. I'm writing down. Maybe you'll maybe you'll feed it at some point, but you know about the regrets I have about not being honest about About the fact that J probably was going to die and not really talking about it but talking about it and admitting it almost made it made it seem like we were giving up, you know, so it's such a such a fine balance when when someone you love is is dying about you know, how much to to really talk about it, but that's that's a big regret that I have off on a lighter note as we used to say on The Today Show you are you think you'd ever go into politics. I know don't worry. I know you've been asked this a million times I didn't or I thought about it. Seriously. I thought that the skills that I've learned in in business were applicable to running either a country or state or something and it was also in my own mind a way of giving back doing something that was hopefully good for society in our country. And so I did think about it. Seriously. I'm now been going dead. 70 and it doesn't mean you're a spring chicken compared to a compared to a lot of people out. There are a couple of guys running for president that make me look young right and wrong. I rather doubt I will seek political office at this point in my life. It was something that I more than toyed with I thought about seriously folks who to talk to about above. I know many many people I set up meetings and interviews of sorts with experts and former politicians and pollsters and you name it. I don't want to reveal who they were but there are some folks who helped other people get elected to pretty high office and they they opened my eyes to a lot of things that I needed to consider more than anything. You know, I talked a lot to my wife about it, She wasn't exactly enamored of the idea. Now. I didn't mean that she was stand in the way of it, but it would have been a very difficult thing to put my family through I want to give Willow props because he's been an incredible dean of the Annenberg School of Communications and you know, you guys must talk about this cuz you wanted to be a news and your News Junkie and obviously wage low is training some of the future journalists of the world. Do you find it disconcerting what's happened to the news business and just help polarized we are and you know, I look at my Instagram feed Bob and I feel like you know, we're we're living in parallel universes where you know, there just doesn't seem to be any consensus. A lot of it is because of the the algorithms and the kind of content people get fed. I just watched this great documentary called the social dilemma, which I highly recommend. I'm sure Willow if she hasn't seen it to watch it. Yeah. I'm more than just concerned. I'm saddened by it all I used to think that the truth really ma'am and there was always a means of getting out the truth and accepting what it was even if you started off not believing it. There was a place a means of a dialogue of forum that ultimately would conclude what was right, you know what was accurate and I don't think God exists today and it's very very sad. I think that there it's polarized polarized Society of polarized world would be one way to describe it. But I'm actually worried that it's the impact of such polarization could be far more profound and you know what happens if two opposing sides have no ability to ever come to some agreement about something other than through sheer force and I fear that that's ultimately that people will resort to You know to prove that their side is right as opposed to dialogue and debate and consideration and kind of back and forth and off they bility either anymore. It's you know used to be things. Of course more used to talk about everything coarsening. Well, that's not it's worth much worse than that. Are you optimistic though Bob? I hate to end things on that note. I'm cautiously optimistic, but I'm also really worried. I'm you know, they usually preach optimism cuz who the heck wants to wallow in pessimism or follow a pessimist certainly when it comes to leadership, but I think what we're seeing today is true consumer and I worried that only a crisis were will get us out of this and who wants that? Well Bob, I love talking to you. Thanks so much for all your time and and I will definitely talk about your book ride of a lifetime sell more copies and and share the important messages. I think on leadership that I think people are really hungry for God. Thank you. Okay. Thanks for the opportunity. Appreciate it. And that does it for this bonus episode of back to business make sure to tune in for my new limited series called turn out exploring the past present and future of Voting Rights Act of America. It premieres October 1st and airs every Thursday through the fall season. You can find it and subscribe on the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows so until next time I'm Katie Couric. Thanks so much for listening everyone. Back to bears with Katie and Bows is a production of iHeart radio and Katie Couric media. The executive producers are Katie Couric Bozeman st. John and Courtney. Let's the supervisor issue series Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are Derek Clements Eliza Kostas and Emily Pinto editing by Derek Clements and Lauren Hansen mixing by Derek Clements special. Thanks to Adriana Fazio. For more information about today's episode go to Katie Couric, You can also follow Katie Couric and Bows in the st. John on Twitter and Instagram for more podcast on iHeartRadio visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Bob Iger Bob Walt Disney Company Bob Iger CEO president Mazda Katie Couric executive chairman ABC Walter Cronkite country club Abigail Disney Steve Jobs Frank Sinatra Bill Gates America Saint John chairman NBA