4 Episode results for "Malcolm Johnson"
Episode 29 Part 3 Congress and Corruption
"Hello listeners. This is labor. Your rights podcast. I'm your host. Dave. This episode is brought to you by the national ego, Justice and security professionals. The members count. First contact information can be found in the show, including our toll free number which is what eight five five six two five eight six one zero please check out life on record or gift of record messages for any special occasion to load one. She are showing for details. In nineteen fifty three. He announced his intention to reclaim land controlled by United fruit company in the name of the watermelon. People L D obeyed a woman uprising led by back military, liberation Colonel Carlos Castilla Armas the collapse of RBIs. Government was cheered in America. But Colonel Armagh soon revealed himself to be a right wing dictator intent on murdering his political opponents and erotic ating, the country's trade unions. See I went on to us, and af L C I O supported union in British Guyana in nineteen sixty one to undermine the duly elected. Government of prime minister, Chad Jagan and A I L V F L C I O staff were involved in the overthrow of labor friendly. Governments in the Dominican Republic in nineteen sixty five and in Chile in nineteen seventy three the US meddling in the affairs of foreign labor unions remade a secret for many years revolutions first servicing by accident in the mid nineteen sixties fearing hearings into tactics in Lathrop. Ick foundations by democratic congressman right patent of Texas patent who's small business subcommittee was looking for tax abuses stumbled into evidence that various real and dummy US villain throb AAC foundations were used by the CIA essay secret conduit to direct US funds to covert operations, like J lo'd stones. American unions also appeared to be involved a treasures of oil chemical and Tomic workers B C A W. As well as American newspaper guild were among those used pass through large cash payments. Batman went public causing an article about the mysterious guy funds to appear in New York Times on September. First nineteen sixty four. During this period of time. When some members of the labour busy attempting to reveal the vent of communism. Elsewhere in the world at home without it self on the defensive from allegations of corruption there had long been labor union related crimes. What did appear to be a relatively new and growing phenomenon in the post World War Two era was that of large Enes organize along business lines tolerating extensive corruption and abuse from within barrel leadership as well as attracting fulltime criminals from without the increase in. Memberships be mount of money gathering in year, treasuries, straight funds and pension funds had grown so large. It could not but have a transformative organizational affect. Controlling millions of dollars changed. The character of the union leaders job often his character as well a certain amount of questionable practices, payoffs and graft in the leadership ranks, but if they delivered on basic needs and stood up for workers, and acceptable level. Crushing would be accepted. The New York waterfront corruption that reminded America of its problems with labor related crime. When you're sun. Reporter Malcolm Johnson was sent to cover the murder of a Canard hiring bus in nineteen forty-seven. I west side piers Johnson investigated and wrote up historian. But intrigued remain on the waterfront for the better part of a year documenting and I'll LA. Fred here of unchecked Febuary smuggling shakedowns, kickbacks, robbery, extortion, and murder and underworld syndicate one whose reach extended throughout America. And even the world. The syndicate is like a big trade association in crime it began back in prohibition. And it is still strong today. It has interest in New York, of course. And in Hollywood, Miami, Chicago, Detroit and other key cities, the heart of this enterprise was a labor union, the international longshoremen's association through which Johnson wrote mobsters are able to control all key jobs on the piers and Reckitt operate without interference Johnson's son series, which won a Pulitzer prize in nineteen forty-nine helped insp-. Fire an even more public expose a in nineteen fifty fifty one when Tennessee Senator ESTES. Kefauver led Nationale Lee televised hearings into the underworld syndicate that featured the testimony of real life criminals since prohibition be American public had known of the sense. Asian lives activities of gangsters and the nineteen forty prosecutions of murdering corporate had revealed the existence of a nationally coordinated Jewish and I tell you of execution squad. Hurry, insulin here of the US Breyer of narcotics. Who had been following the efforts by Charles lucky Guccione buyer, Lansky and others to develop an offshore criminal haven in Keila head as early as nineteen Forty-six understood that the syndicate was far reaching in scope known formerly essence special committee to investigate organized crime in interstate commerce. They kept offer panels convened in seven seas, including New York, Washington and Los Angeles, the hearings were fellow by the public weren that the syndicate was a criminal Vandam government that enforces its laws carries out its own executions and that only ignores, but a horse the democratic process of Justice, which are held to be the safeguards of the American citizen. The report that emerged from. The hearings was very much of it time imagining labor corruption not unlike communism to be a secret government of criminals capable of some birding the country from within the Kip half or hearings was covered by newspapers. And the medium televised executives of the three major stations were excited that such civic minded programming garnered high ratings as twenty million Americans were believed to have watched some of the Japan ever hearing only one in five households at ATV set. Those who did not gathered outside of stores who had them displayed in windows the link between organized crime and the longshoremen's union of New York was central to both Malcolm Johnson's and esus Fathur's were in of course, raised uncomfortable questions. About organized labor. It was Robert Kennedy who had investigate this connection more closely. Senator John McClellan, chairman of the committee of Arkansas was sparked by an incident in New York City on the evening of April fifth nineteen fifty six when York Post labor columnist Victor racial who had just left Lindy's steakhouse was attacked by group in who test acid in space. The assault came only a few days after resell had published a comb criticizing New York's trucking and clothing industries for alleged connections to organize crime resou-. I Bain Joan Gardy also known as Johnny DO a union officer racketeer in the garment business who'd already done time in sing-sing. He was convinced DO head hired his attackers. Resale went on meet the press to tell the story of his attack. He asked why the government can Vesta gate a foreign threat such as communism lag, nor a local fit of labor racketeering. George me quickly responded saying that just as we have defeated the east without who tried to desperately to destroy the labor movement. So we defeat enemies from within those wrongdoing can undermine the effectiveness of everything we are trying to accomplish the AFL CIO ethical practices committee was orange extend it staff confront the dilemma as others for paired to deal with what bloomed as a major public image crisis for federation and all organized labor. It was Clark Mellon Hof a lawyer and investigative reporter for the desma registers from you approach Robert Kennedy about the possibility of all up on resuls suggestion for formal inquiry into labor racketeering. Can't he was Vince Irving as counsel to the Senate permanent committee on invest? Negations which had been recently looking into corruption on the part of suppliers and low level government officials in the clothing procurement system of the armed forces at the time all labor unions were required churn in annual financial reports to secretary of labor as they are today. But then they lacked the staff and will to scrutinize these submissions. The information was considered confidential. It is public today. Kennedy's first stop was to visit several cities where labor crush it had been reported accompanying him worse. Former FBI agent and accounting expert Carmen who Email they focused primarily on international brotherhood of Teamsters. With one point six million members, the nation's largest trade union in meeting journalists and police knowledgeable about its activities during this trip. Candy heard enough tells of extortion Phoebe in evidence. Two more than confirm claims. She'd heard one important in Kennedy's outrage at this early stage of the inquiry where the unique skills of his traveling companion for Elino a table full of canceled checks ledgers and scraps of paper authored a forensic he to the Teamsters wrongdoing and the accountant confirmed to Kennedy that deceit and phony transactions appeared to about because of the difficulty of tying individuals to the cookbooks Bellina warned Kennedy not to start this unless he was ready to go all the way Kennedy replied, where going all the way the pro. I looked at Teamsters president, Dave Beck. The former head of the Union's Western Conference who had taken over the IB t in nineteen fifty two from the unions itching founder jail Jj Tobin related dairy old nanny way having served for forty five years can. Candy and Beleno suspected backup playing fast and loose with union funds making questionable purchases often bay sectioning. Many through a Chicago labor relations intermediary named Nathan view Scheffer. Mun a longtime union BUSTER for Sears, Roebuck and company Beck had vent union money on everything from home appliances to boats as well as lavish renovations to his family's all in Seattle. Instead of using the standing Senate permanent committee on investigations to gemin- abuses in organized labor. Hoosein head created a new panel. The select committee on improper activities in the labor or management field to be chaired by John McLaughlin of Arkansas and endowed with an appropriations of three hundred fifteen thousand dollars Katie was chief counsel edition to McClellan. The other Democrats on board were Sam urban Patrick McNamara and John Kennedy who joined reluctantly, but at his brother's insistence in order to keep Strom Thurman, then s later for regressive us on all questions off the committee. Republicans included urban is karo mutt. Very old water and Joseph McCarthy. Kennedy issued a subpoena for Beck in early nineteen fifty seven but back conveniently left the country to spend several weeks in the Caribbean. He claimed fee vacation was for his wife's health when he did finally appear. He took the fifth George me with agreement of both reussir had warned that any official taking the fifth in order team. Baid the committee's questions would be expelled from the AFL CIO in one day back took the fifth more than sixty five times unaware of the way, the TV audience which see. That taking the fifth so many times would be seen as a guilty plea. He would be forced to resign. His gene stirs post and later was convicted of grand larceny and tax evasion. He was sentenced to five years the federal penitentiary James Jimmy Hoffa, the son of an Indiana coal miner who died when James was four he and his family moved to Detroit where the man left school. After the seventh grade were on the loading docks of a grocery warehouse. He his first strike at age nineteen and brought his three hundred man union into the Teamsters local two ninety nine the Teamsters enormous organizing strength by controlling over the road trucking as well as wellcoll delivery drivers in warehouseman, they could virtually bring local regional or even national commerce to a halt oughta and Deb's ever to grow the Teamsters led to. Such expensive membership grove the IB teens welfare and pension fund grew to almost two hundred and fifty million making the Teamsters largest and wealthiest union in America. Hopper was no stranger to Capitol Hill. Having recently been the subject of a house investigation led by Representative Claire Hoffman of Michigan and went Smith of Kansas into the missions of some of those vast IB T resources, it was alleged that off ahead handed over control of a Teamsters health and welfare fund to start up insurance agency ran by Ellen and rose Dorfman who were related to Paul red Dorfman, a suspected organized crime figure who headed a large Chicago trash haulers in the door funds had now prayer extremes in insurance too much S three million in fees and commissions from the fun half of which resulted from the overbilling. And excessive fees the Hoffman. Smith, inC, fiery was mysteriously terminated before it could complete its work probably under pressure from the Republican party, which was eager to win fort for upcoming election. In michigan. Oppa came under scrutiny by the McClellan committee day to his connection student. Johnny DO, the New York garment business racketeer suspected of ordering the salt on Victor resou- DO is suspected to have helped Hoffa maintain paper locals in New York. See when DO arrived at the capitol to test. He managed to make headlines before uttering a word irritating. Win news photographers came too close to snap his pitcher. He routed in anger striking one of them. And Manding don't, you know, I have a family Hoffa in contrast to the site -able DO confidence if he took the w-. Witness stand facing eighties questions. He knew the committee had limited authority and that like the houseman Smith investigation is findings would either be marginalized by backroom political. Maneuvering are it would simply run out of steam hop return. Katie's many info referring to him as a friendless person a bully a spoiled brat. Someone who never had work wouldn't know how to work a curly headed smart Aleck in early nineteen fifty seven Hoffa approach. John C chesty, a former member of the secret service and offered him a salary of two thousand dollars per month. If he can get a job with the McClellan committee in order to tip off Hoffa about witnesses the government had lined up and to feed candy information that would poke doom Dave Beck, whom Hoffa was ear to succeed as Teamsters boss chesty who. Whose character Hoffa, obviously misjudge promptly reported? The proposal to Kennedy the EPA the manage to photograph Hoffa on March thirteenth nineteen fifty seven appearing to have a payoff to Jesse in Washington D Pont circle leading to Hoppe's arrest on bribery and conspiracy charges hafa during his trial claim that if that he was paying chesty for legal services, not a bribe his legal team seeing the jury was two thirds African American had auctioned legend, Joe Lewis show up in support of hafa, but also hired Martha Jefferson, a black attorney. He was also known for reposing segregation in the IB t candy head told reporters that he would jump off the capital, if hop was acquitted when the jury did just that Joe's asked by an intermediary to give an autograph for one of candy sons replied, give it to you for his son. But not. For him to him to go. Take a jump off impair state-building the committee exposed a scheme where in the mid nineteen fifties off and other Teamster executives used money what half million dollars and used it a collateral for a loan of a developer in Orlando, Florida pitch to members prospect of buying plots of land in a retirement village known as Sun Valley, the developer would make what half the plots available to half a privately at a steep discount. We're were a few houses built there and a short road of about two thousand feet evil with all the scrutiny of half and his hoodlum empire. His popularity swelled. Off a compared himself to semi Ogun pers- William green and Philip Murray. Oughta assured his followers I have given twenty five years of my life to fighting for the union, I have fought for what I believe is Ray and good against forces more vicious than you can imagine I propose to continue that by as long as I live. We will be going into the more complete history of labor racketeering in the future in these episodes. We will discuss the how and way crime organization snoop into unions. We will discuss Facific locals in specific cases that involve unions and organized crime. Thank you. Cast with your family and friends, please our podcast on itunes. It helps other side us. If you want to contact us to suggest a topic have a question or just want to say, hi, our contact information is in the show along with our sponsor, the National League of Justice and security professionals where members come first.
On The Waterfront with Richard Chandler and Baker Gonzalez
"Tears thinking guinness sixty percent of the time nuked give drink lark. We not pincay. Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of sin. affleck. I am your host ethan. Coburn this is episode twenty big milestone and i just wanna thank you guys all again for listening. This has been So fun and it's gotten way bigger than expected to. That's been that's been pleasant surprise but a surprise nonetheless. I'm thinking maybe. I should do something fun for episode twenty five since. That's another big thing coming up so if you guys have any questions I mean questions. Have any ideas for what i should do for that. Please send me a message on my instagram. Or twitter and Yeah you can also go to my instagram and twitter to check out. This week's drink the hoboken. Which is the first custom cocktail. We've had on the show invented by paker herself. Who is of two guests on this week's episode. We have paker. Kansallis and richard chandler. And they're both on letterbox Baker on letterbox as cuckoo. Chanel so using him They are a couple and they were so so fun to have on the show. The drinks great conversation was great I hope we can have mont again some time. I really really great time chatting with them. So yeah please check those things out Another another announcement. I'm going to be doing my sean connery tribute episode very soon and i'm still collecting sean connery impressions. So you can email a like a ten second clip to sin affleck at gmail.com or you can send a message. Anchor dot fm slash sin afflict slash message and all have the link for that in the show notes as well. But i'm trying to collect a few more fun to have like a complete compilation there. So please someone in if you can doesn't matter how horrible it is. I think they've all been really funny. So far so yeah we have. Some big show's coming up That i have yet to announce so but some big things are in the works so stay tuned on instagram and twitter. I will announce those as soon as i can without further ado. Let's get into this week's episode. Hope you enjoy my church and if you don't think twice down here on the waterfront you've got another guests come jesus alongside in the shape up. He sees someone get picked and some of you get passed up. He sees the family man worrying about getting the rent and get food in the house for the wife and the kids he sees. You're selling your solar so the mob day's pay the next bummed nutro sutton deals with me. I don't care is twice my size. Now what does quite that. Easy money boys and none of that can take hold of the gravy. And how does he feel about the fellows who were one hundred and fifty dollars souks. Diamond ring baker richard. Welcome a. it's so great to have you on you guys. Were like one of my first two of my listeners. I should say so. It's it's it's an honor to have you guys on. I'm i'm so excited to talk about this movie now. It's great to be your thank you so much for having me laugh contrast since day. One eight one since day. One for sure so much so fly over america. Yeah from from louisville kentucky. Yes so so. I wanted to ask so so. We're doing on the waterfront and for on the waterfront. We're doing we're drinking hoboken's you made up. I love it. I love it so so you're a bartender and you made up this cocktail. This is my first bartender. I've had on the show. I i'd love it. If you could just explain how you came up with this drink at such a fun idea. Sure so the whole idea of the cartel is sort of born out of the The manhattan which has its own kind of like family of of delineation cocktails like the brooklyn. So one called the newark. That they're all in manhattan vein kind of manhattan family and so. I thought we could do something. That was kind of a riff on That little family at hoboken in there which is where on the Takes place and so. It is equal parts apple track which is a new jersey spirit. It's apple brandy basically That has been blended with a little bit of neutral. Rain spirit but ostensibly You could substitute apple brandy in. It's dead but the layered stranded used is one of america's kind of older spirits companies and they are based in new jersey. Oh cool yeah and then you'll see in the film. They do a little bit of off loading of crates of irish whiskey and it is so i also did. Equal part of johnston in the cocktail and manhattan's typically have sweep removes and there's kind of like this fusion of irish and italian cultures. It seems like on a used in italian Which is just a little bit more bitter than a traditional sweeper. Move but any favor who would be just fine in the cocktail and as far as jameson is concerned you can substitute your favorite. It's not hard and fast rule Did it as an owner to the film and that A half ounce of bartenders. No as for rory which is equal parts. Campari and frenette bronco Both italian Sort of mtv recorders amari depending on who you want to ask A lot of italians say. Campari is not an amari. So or tomorrow rather so anyway. That's super technical but So it's a quarter ounce. Each of from that is so one. Ounce one ounce of a applejack of the jameson and of the sweet vermouth. Putu mess africa vote. And then one quarter ounce easier for net and campari. You disturbed by some. You can have it on the rocks a few. I like to pour it and serve it up that way. It doesn't dilute anymore. boosy and it's Kind of a bitter quality to itself. Embitter yeah totally totally totally. And i love the glasses that you guys have for it. They're just like your standard kind of like hoop and an thank you for standing me. The photo poor instagram as well. You're you're the first guest. Actually take the photo for me. It's only because. I'm a control freak virgo. It's not you it's me. I know that i love it. I'm so how long have you been Bartended what's the cuts the place you're working at now. Has that all going. So i have been in the hospitality industry basically since i joined the workforce having been bartending since then because of the underage time but i've been bartending for several years and most recently. I opened the world's second-largest whisky bar but it was really short lived We were open for exactly one month before we had to close for covid fifteen and we start march fifteenth and we got to know on our sixteenth. Saying hey. don't come in and we don't know when you come back or anyone can come back and then just kind of got works in worse because the location of the bar is located downtown. Which is the central business district of the not reviving yet. Because that's where all the hotels in the convention center at cetera but also i work at a tiki bar which is a bar that specializes in tropical drinks Being in california you guys probably at is some folks might not be. Yeah i notice. He says yeah two very different kinds of bars. I guess yeah. I mean you guys live. We live in powell alta. So we're up in northern california so it's a little bit further south that movement. Where started but still you guys would have heard of smugglers coned predicts and all that kind of stuff that goodness having california that we don't have here so it's the only tiki bar in the city. So that's i have my little apple here you're celebrating. I love it Yet know what a what a fun fun drink option in. It's it's it's great to it's great to have a bartender on the show two years one. I'm not sure. I want to take this Give like a brief synopsis of the movie. Puff or get too far into the richard or so on the waterfront directed by ilya kazan. Produced by same spiegel written by bud shubert us from nineteen fifty four eventually released through paramount. I believe wasn't it was it. Columbia was the columbia. Y'all you're right. Member a big clue columbia cone rejected initially but yet it had. It had a really tangled production history. I mean like kazan was working on a waterfront project. With arthur miller that fell through but she'll working on his own thing that was based on these malcolm johnson investigative articles that ended up becoming the basis for on the waterfront but they urged when when when kazan miller fell out over kazan's testimony. Yeah he's hard. Working with schulenberg they got together with a was spiegel got a production budget less than a million dollars but there are still a lot of anticipation for it because they were able to get brando. You know to lob yeah so the movie concerns. It's a semi semi fictionalized version of these malcolm johnson articles about about waterfront corruption union corruption on the docks in how they are You know basically shakedown operators dividing. Who could work and win. You know eliminating witnesses who are inconvenient to them. What have you incentives around the brando character. he plays manny malloy. Whose brother is Basically the lawyer for the goons i You know he works. At the behest of johnny friendly played by lee j cobb who basically runs the docks and as the film begins. He is sorta unwittingly leading The whistle blower as we would. Now call it. They didn't have the term back ben To his death by luring him onto onto the roof of building ray lives and which can be thrown off and then it starts Essentially a crisis of conscience for precarity malloy when he meets the what you already newer but he reacquainted with the with the sister of the deceased father. Berry the carl gallagher. Basically tried to turn him into a decent person over the course of about one hundred minutes or so you know or takes a lot more than his conscience as it turns out you know. Yeah yeah for sure for sure Yeah and it's. It's just acting to the max i mean you've got you've got karl malden even saying carlin brando. Just going paul's to the wall. Like i feel like then. I feel like this movie just kind of. Can you put like rod. Steiger leauge cobb martin balsam and an carl maldon together. I feel like. That's like the mount rushmore of fifties character actors. Like maybe like can't be thrown like salma ritter on their something but like i just feel like that's just the mouth mount rushmore of like character actors like god. But if you're if into old movies like you just Recognize like everyone that just pops up on the side here. It's it's it's so funny carton balsams screen for two minutes on it is like kissing basically. It's the line steamer. He is called the girlfriend in another scene where he's staying there. Smoking high broke out of the. Yeah in theory and you see kind of like at the at the court hearing where you standing there locally totally. Yeah it's a. It's a fantastic cast. Like i think that's my first. Take away from this movie. It's just like wow. Everyone is going all out acting This first movie. Oh i did not realize that black as a even marie saint to they're both. This is the first movie i mean. Isn't that incredible. That's i mean what what what an entrance onto the scene for both of them and and the other thing that i heard was so kazan was trying to convince branded. The part and brando was sort of unsure about it and so he got this up and coming actor to do like a test screening. Paul newman paul newman. It's to make to make Ten make brandon jealous that of course of course Paul newman and and that made brand of really jealous eventually sutton but yeah i mean i mean having paul newman in this in this also amazing not that not that. Brando's at all replaceable or anything. Well yeah as you mentioned. They're using newman for bait the same way. They were sinatra. I don't know if you came across too. But you know they find frank sinatra But spiegel ever really intended to use them and he was basically trying to attract the interest of various studio players and was always going after brando privately. Yeah i think. I was just like more handshake deal than actual contract or he signed them. He just sued when when rando took the part from him. I mean what happened was initially demanded. The carl molin part. Which kazan wouldn't give him because he in melbourne went way back also need picture frank sinatra doing that part anyway but that would have been bizarre brando anywhere in this movie would have been bizarre because it's all about like leg connections like the most famous person in hollywood to have like crazy right the connections that would have been so odd use promo. That's true jeez. Page any late first takeaways from this movie. Oh jeez i don't know you think or watching a movie about you guys. Was it your first time seeing this movie. Oh no i actually saw it before in film like some film composition. Course that i took in high school. Oh let's go yeah. It was for english class. Like we had to do all these electives and an i chose this one and this professor or the teacher will a teacher would show his favourite films in class and we would just talk about murs. Clause was always different times but yeah it's This yeah this was. That was the first time. I watch this film but this is the second time i watched it so definitely a different perspective. It'd been awhile for both longtime. Yeah yeah. I definitely the funny thing. I remembered the first time i this whole time. I thought that the burs that were in the cage or chickens and i watched it again. I was like waiting for the chickens. I was like. Oh my god. There's also they are science but really a chicken for chicken line would have made just as much sense in some ways could win. The boys goes pitcher for. Yeah yeah what was. What was the thinking with picking this movie for. Do guys like what was your like like what's your what's your cut your history with this merely what you think with picking it like and what. What charles you back to it. I guess euro surgery basically. He's a huge on the waterfront van. And i had never seen it prior to us starting our courtship. But i don't know. I haven't seen maybe halfway. Maybe like three years ago or so. We finally got around to this one. I had never really been acquainted with marlon brando's actor in so i think we saw a we saw Streetcar i eventually got me to watch this. I really enjoyed it but on our most recent trip to new york that is a trip that we take yearly for It's a dual trip for our anniversary and my be day which were just a few days apart. Finally we actually had a I got us tickets to an outdoor screening of on the waterfront city of the museum of new york which was essential for me had the best time of anyone in the air and they have like a As combo out. Friday at mike free drinks us. Swipe you yes great. I mean the side was not the most advanced but they had these really brickley winge airs. You're searching about forty minutes into the pound but we still had a great time. And of course i cried on cue at all right mama. Yeah no that sounds awesome like free drinks like how. How did they manage that. I you know it wasn't. I think it was like mining pierre. There wasn't so special. Licensed you because they are museum. I'm sure that they have like an events catering license or something like that so it was all in the ticket price and like the proceeds went. Boxing museum is really great experience for us. Perfect perfect i mean. I'm all like all their for free drinks anywhere there are available that's half the reason l. proceedings but i'm okay my. I was curious what what was the first movie that you guys saw together. A question like as a couple did we have to finish it. I love whatever whatever's a good story at the very earliest films that i can recall him trying to get me to watch which did not succeed on the first. Take irwin mine. Oh my favorite movie it well. It is also like one of my favorite movies of top top three i. It depends on the day like we're so jarring for me. Because i was just really sensitive to all of these self harm scenes in. I didn't know anything about the movie before going into it. I absolutely nothing other than this young guy needs. This older lady and i was just like if this is what this is going to be. We're the is faking his death all the house to turn now. I'm traumatized they can't hear a few years later. I finally was like. Let's try again. Added the yeah. I just hit me at the right. Hit me the right time in life where it was just you know i was like seventeen and trying to figure out and sort of you know i wasn't i wasn't that depressed but i was just like a like it's it's it's just it's very uplifting story Love that movie. I thirty minutes. It's wonderful. yeah he also like if you know. If you know what's coming later. I feel like it gets easier to on the waterfront. Where were with that. Where where we with that. I just wanted in my life for about half my life. I think i i saw this when i was eighteen. Or so. that's the very very long time ago. michael babysat. Either you as you know And so i think i saw it. I when i was working at a blockbuster for any indication blockbusters like the very we were like. The last generation to really experience blockbusters movie a week. My parents would let me pick one more times. Ra people are buster. When the ship was on the way down like actively going down yeah that was brutal. That was brutal out in cast. I mean i think. I don't know if we should include brando or not in this discussion because i mean obviously like he's he's just flexing this whole movie but i mean maybe brandon aside who really stands out in the supporting cast to walden mullet. Mullins knows you know yeah totally. Nobody shaming our noses. His nose his greatness whole is a look. I loved his performance in this. Honestly i didn't. I didn't love his performance as much in streetcar. I mean like i love. I love streetcar so much. But this is performance in in. This was really really over the top right. Yeah he's got that kind of exuberance that he always has he's eleven. Yeah i i agree. He's so much better in this than streetcar. Because streetcar makes them play romance and that he just can't do that now in here. He's a preseason have to play any sort of romance but just self righteousness which is what he has best anyhow as perfect believe him. He's got all these people come from theatrical background in so i mean like they're they're able to dislike project before a camera the way kid. Would you know when it's it's such a. It's such an intense acting style especially for the period in the whole cast. But i would say mullen in particular really you know really spit out yet. Definitely in cobb to just really particularly stands out to me I guess he always plays kind of bruising. Big guys i mean like i think i think i i think the thing i think of him. Post in is Twelve angry men. So yeah it's a. It's a similar character. it's not the same. I don't want to say it's the same character. But it's it's it's a big angry new yorker. Yeah i mean. But but i mean he he k. As a great job just paying this kinda evil I mean you really are afraid of them. In the movie. I think is terrifying. They establish it right from the first scene with him. You know when you're not counting all the money and he tells the guy to go back to green boy. I mean it's awful. Totaling smack are out of his mouth slapping around put groan managed so degrees. Aing so great though. It's so great is always like jerk. Surname avery year marine. Even you insane. She did a great job to exceptional. Yeah i've i've a really fun story about her actually i. I don't know i can tell it. Now i guess. But i i used to work at the stanford theatre which i've talked about on the podcast. Which old hollywood movies and stuff and she. She came in one day to see a showing of north by northwest. How cool which is so called. And she sat in the balcony in the front row and and someone and part of our customer's always describes like tending right behind her but kind of to the side and just watching her watch that like final kiss with cary grant and like just the light reflecting off her face. She's like watching her younger self in like her her her most iconic roller whatever. Most iconic roles in yamanouchi Was just a really really cool experience. I mean it's just something always talk about just having there. It's like just yeah. Classy old lady. I the auditorium with to college is named after she went to the same college. Me that's awesome. That's saint years. I read that is actually mauldin. Who scouted her own. Yeah and he brought her to kazan. He signed him play on tv or something like that. She was actually trained. She actually was educated at a convent. And so i think that may have to do with her being cast in the role. I can see that because she's very I think Other person is all. That was up for this. Part was grace kelly. I don't. I don't think. I mean i love grace kelly. I just don't think that word. It's too gritty for her. But elizabeth montgomery was also in the running life years before bewitched weird. Yeah that could work. Dot could work like chris kelly to me. She she It turned this down for rear window and that was definitely the right call for her. Well i mean. I could kind of see where they were thinking with it though because high noon is somewhat similar. I don't think for me in high noon. No no it didn't either. I mean but i feel like if they were thinking like oh well. She did this maybe she could do. This is wall. But i mean i agree. It's not my favorite. i can't. She's not as expressive. Saint is the saints saints gotten almost like a feral quality to which is at her most excited in this. That's that's an interesting way to describe. It has one of you wanna talk about just like your your your favorite thing about this movie just overall it can be it characters seen right. Yeah well i'm it's the no one's no one's really brought it up yet but you know it's the brando performance you know. Yeah yeah when you talk about brando because of how obvious it is as a response. But i mean it's really revolutionary I mean obviously he. He'd already come onto the scene. You know four years prior. And you had monty clift and james dean by this time. But still i mean like just how expressive he is. It's really it's really arming. To think about nineteen fifties film. I mean like you know. It's it's i mean it's really something else and obviously i think most best exemplified in contender speech. You know either I think kazan himself said that. That was the you know the best he. He cited brando the giving the best performance. Basically in the history of the medium in. go that far. But it's you can make you can make a case for it. I mean it's just outstanding. He's just all he's just so electric on screen. I mean you just you watch him. I mean yeah. He's just he just he just sort of bounces off at you i. I don't know how else to test scribe it. He's just he's purely cognitive. I think i think i think sometimes i get. I get frustrated with him. Not enunciate certa. When lost the part to we started calling them mumbles. Yeah exactly i mean. Honestly it doesn't. It doesn't even matter that much he's just. He's so he case so charismatic. You're talking about a scene where he's playing with her glove love or something. Yeah yeah. I love that scene. Where he's just there. Unlike the swing set. I think and it's really interacting on Onscreen earliest in the film And he picks up her glove and just kind of puts it on as playing with that. But it's just kind of. I don't know it's just one of those things where it feels so natural had actually see someone do but it doesn't even feel like it was necessarily scripted like Like he just picked it up and started playing around with it just felt like he was really in the character just kind of living at what you described as is actually basically what what what happened as far as What i've read you know that that it wasn't it wasn't just like a coincidence. When they were filming they staged by that point. But in a rehearsal process she dropped glove incidentally and instead of you know risk taking brando picked it up started playing with it. You know kazan. i later indicated. The bet like solve the problem for the scene because they know kazan basically was he didn't understand like how he could get them walking together and talking that first time because she is such a you know. She's this convent girl and ease. This could you know who's in with the mob in all this. So she's being blinded the onset but then when he picks up the glove been he's he's got the leverage she has glove back so she has reason stay there and talk to him. It makes the seem plausible early designs feeling about it. I think it's really interesting. Yeah no i think that makes sense. He's sort of he sort of holding something of hers serve. Yeah he's giving her reason to stick around us. That's that's initial his feminine entity if feminity it's got it's got it's the it's the first thing that displays the 'ambiguities for him really what's most important about him as a character is that even though he's like a professional boxer like he is. Has this tenderness that obviously brother doesn't have the people he works for. Doesn't have his associates that other dockworkers he's Even though he tries to fight it there's something about him. That's very empathetic. We do see with the pigeons. His interaction with ernst were can't interact with people that way but a with the pigeons. You see not only. Is he taking care of his own but he's also taking care of. Joey's you think a part of that is the empathetic response but also a little bit of his guilt over. What is happening to joy. I think you bring up a good point that he's trying to fight it. I mean like he he he. He seems like the whole time like he's he's trying to. He's he's on his trying to be a tough guy which is which is like like. It's not quite as nature like he he. He's a fighter but but he it's not. It's not really where as hard as and that's obviously in the famous. I could've been a contender speech. But yet like i think i think i think it. I think the key point to that is is that he does seem internally conflicted right yeah why don't think it's just you know that that he you know has a tender side to him and also just it's not it's not like giving the testimony for him is just a matter of losing some friends. It involves implicating his only family but he has left mean he's an orphan in johnny friendly's a terrible guy but you know to terry. He's guy who took him to ball games when you know. No one else cared for him. Isn't it yeah. And so i mean he. I mean he should obviously butte able by this point in his life to parse right from wrong but i think maybe that the fact that it's like a prize fighter you can maybe say. Got some like post concussion syndrome. Or the united g. He's obviously not a very intellectually oriented person. You know so i mean. He's basically tries to live his life without thinking about the ramifications of his decisions. I mean he doesn't. he's not really a savant. I mean he's he's not he's not as ignorant as he lets on because he gives her his philosophy on the date. You know the stick before he gives it to you all at close to education right. Yeah totally totally does a really good point. Yeah i mean. I think like could easily spend the rest of the podcast on his performance. Like it's it's it's so. It's so layered so spectacular. I mean. yeah a lot of people. Don't think it's only kazan that that that that that site this is possibly the greatest performance of all time. I mean it's it's it's it's it's really contention for that. I heard the story about him him in him an acting class that always that always cracks me up like the actress studio like a lot of these Chung actors from this generation and the acting teacher at some point said now now do guys are all bunch of chickens and the atomic bomb is coming. And so everyone's running around the classroom going barbara. Where like like freaking out. And harlin brando's just like quietly standing in a corner pretending to lay an egg and the teacher comes up to me like what's what's happening is like a chicken. I don't know what the atomic bomb is a memory. I guess chicken wouldn't really have that not not quite dark quiet. He was really great at this thing that he didn't really care for doing. And that's a that's a good way to put it allied back. You know you could say he's the best at this but he didn't have any respect for intermediate he said movies aren't aren't art. Nashville philanthropy was more his. Yeah he thought of it. Basically as a sideline so that he could you know so somebody could be an activist of can do the things that he thought were really important to him now. How much of that though is is really like sour grapes from honestly none. Maybe he had a tough time Later in the decade that we're discussing of anger heartland of the wilderness. And you know. I mean the industry wasn't that kind to him for awhile insomnia. It's easy to think. If his career had gone a lot more smoothly maybe he would have liked being an actor for living in a true. That's true i. It's hard to like in some ways. It's hard to imagine having a Career than hit his end and a lot of ways. It does seem self-destructive. A lot of his actions like read at one point that he was only onset until four. Each day ends of some of the actors he had that in. This contrast contract had that his contract. And then i guess again in the in the in in the famous. I could've been a contender speech he didn't stick around for rod steiger's close ups which rod steiger continued to present for years. Because he was like his performance was so good. 'cause rod steiger was there for his close ups and there was just some some crew members info on the lines. Yeah someone who's paying on the lines or something but yeah i. It seems like it seems like some of his is self destructive. I don't know you know the thing is. This was a really weird time for brando. I mean first of all he he didn't. He was not associated with kazan before this movie. Because of kazan's h. u. a. c. testimony brando's was like a lot of other people on the left at the time thought that he had betrayed his former colleagues when he when he testified before the house unamerican activities today and so you know rand in didn't want anything to do with him. I mean he had to be killed into doing the movie. Just because of the strength of the role and like you said being made jealous over. Paul newman and frank sinatra and all those nations that you know that's the only way they can even interested in the role in the first place even want anything to do with it and he but also he was trying to get a divorce. At this time his mother had just died. He was really starting to get into psychoanalysis like four. That's why he was out at four every day so he'd go see his his psychoanalyst. He apparently he he. Actually i mean it was very costly to do cycle analysis at the time and he took hundred and twenty five thousand dollars in cash instead of points on the gross for this movie so it pay for his for his i am. He lost a ton of money. I mean this was a very profitable film. You know you'd think he'd have some some cash at the time to pay for things but it was eaters low on money. I couldn't say there's no telling how much therapy is costing him at four times. A leak He's extremely impulsive. I was looking at his biography last week. You know in anticipation of coming on here. I mean they're talking about right after filming was done he holed up in like a bachelor pad carnegie hall and was eating entire boxes of mala mars young. Yes sounds like a great week. I mean quincy. Jones came to interview to p- rolling stones a few years ago reset a fucking hell box or something and he said something along the lines of like control but i think he said from warren beatty. Oh yeah for sure for me. And i don't see that many people read about that. Many people who were attorney down brando. Yeah he he did. Have kids for sport though. That's no joke. He loves to paker. What was your favorite thing about this movie. Other than other than brando. Mike containing regarding brando going strictly. Not brand related you. Can you can go. you can go like brando's make up. I not a performance related specifically switch the focus a little bit to and and christ in the shape up speech right after. I'm spoiler alert actor. Ko has been killed in the hold by the pallet of Davison following berry is to do the rights et cetera based made an agreement a gentleman's agreement that if ko Testifies against legia cops character. John les at sort of expose. What's going on on the waterfront. That father berry will support him all the way. And you can as far as His own personal efforts. In whenever i guess you know money or power than he has disposal to help him and he's killed bear shows. I mean like kelsey freeze they kill him and carlton shows opt to do as little rights. I'm not catholics. i don't understand what's going. I mean he's just writing over him. I guess so. Then he's like you throws his hat down and he was like no. I made a fries and many starts proselytizing to the men the longshoreman who have gathered around to hear komala speak about his agreement with ko and he goes into this really enlivened level. Eleven about right and wrong. And what is christ. Like and what is not and How basically jesus santa he sees you when you're sleeping. He sees you when you're awake. He knows charlie's cable haircut. He knows when you've been bad or good or wear one hundred fifty dollars. Basically telling the longshoremen like these. Take your money. They by camel hair coats with and they don't even let you come and work some days. So what are you even doing. Why are you d- indeed cetera and till eeo. One of the you know. Huge heavies for boxing Actually form pro boxer as he looks like he could be. Yeah the three main heavies tilly. Oh and then the shorter guy truck and then vitol any monster looking guy. They're all former pro boxers so he like Throwing detritus at karl malden. Who's traffic speed girly throwing rocks at the dead body. It's just really abhorrent and Cherry not sky straight up right in front of friendly us standing looming above watching the proceedings. But it's turned wavering. him. Yeah i definitely think it's the first time you see series character like sprouting sort of like a conscience after his date with Her plea for help and really seeing how all the pieces are kind of like coming together like he just was on the fringes of the joey situation didn't really know exactly what was going on. Then got full dosage of the severity situation with ko and his demise and was like. Wow this is is really serious. And i really. He's starting to want to kind of change. The tide and it's also the introduction of a theme that i think is silent but pretty powerful in the film in that is of the journey of joey. Doyle's jacket as a symbol of like kind of the ban of just like this were i. It's joey who's going to testify or give name names etcetera. And then his jacket is given to keio and then he kind of comes to his His death and that it's interrogating well. Yeah you know they give it back to Handed over to terry later But you see that return of the jackets who is basically has been trying to appoint terry as the health mate in in cracking the joy to a case in really getting things moving up as for a change on the waterfront. And i think it's a very powerful speech really goes It's one of the more electric i mean. All of maldon electric. Let's be honest but his character was kind of based on a real life. Prese name of father. John corden who was supposedly like an you know big time smoker and drinker ings roughneck but definitely like a hip foul mouth to mouth. Priest was not your wiki que- squeaky clean priest. And so i think maldon plays it a little bit cleaner a little bit. You know very naive at the beginning radio exactly. He's alive the beginning and you see this is where he's really starting to come into the john corden side of the character where he's pops handed in the smoke when they're on the lift coming out of the whole he's looking like a total bad ass basically standing over the dead body and i just think it's a really powerful moment for a lot of people in the film. I think it's really powerful for call. He feels empowered in his position to help any really really committed to the cause of his parish. Its powerful for eighty to see terry Retaliating against his own. You know john friendly and his goons and that is powerful for As well because it's like he's starting to see like i want to hear it. This guy has to say just let them finish to be so hostile and really kind of like turning his back. Little is starting to turn his back on. What was his sort of mob family totally. Yeah yeah i i wanted. Say back to the jacket point What i noticed on the second watch was at the beginning. He was wearing this black and white checker jacket and and sometimes i look into symbols little too much. But i was kinda thinking like Maybe that was some kind of for shadowing like he. Everything's either black and white or something is feeling mixed ou- like The but yeah. I noticed the jacket chain. I was like okay. That's like definitely A point where maybe his. Maybe he's decided his Like direction or feelings on the situation and he he's he's becoming kind of a different he showing a different side to his character. This point onward Be i thought that was interesting way. Yeah yeah and then and then just the final that final moment in that seem of just him and the body being lifted in the light by the crane i mean. Yeah god i think. I think in some ways that might be the most traumatic moment of the film for me. Just hinting lifting the lightly. He's he's in. He's in the shadow with like a single light cast on him. And then i think it does. Two things is lifting him closer towards god by the bodies parties literally ascending closer towards heaven but also on johnny friendliest on on the upper tier like. He's he he he's he's rising past has the ranks of johnny friendly. So i think that that that shot is just so so intense in such an intense way to end that just amazing Speech with with karl malden. Yeah it's interesting that you bring up the thing with johnny friendly. Because i just noticed the most recent time we watched you know how you say he's going pass johnny friendly and it's interesting that giant. Uc johnny friendly. Take his hand off. You know when when father berry comes up it really is indicative of. It's like there's one force that is untouchable even drained corruption. You know. I do think there are lots of small little odds symbolism of a religious nature in this film which is really interesting because you know because amazon catholic but there was not religious when it's not religious at all. Let's remind native us yet. He was he was he was jewish by knowing was an atheist while at his heritage issue is threatening he was not raised religious to my knowledge. And then but you do see this. Just like a barrage of like tiny little Mosaic points of these catholic or religious symbolism throughout the film. Which i think is really interesting including the jacket richer. You're mentioning patient kind of like he trades garment for another. He's kind of like embodying the righteousness of of the cause any father berries tie into that. He's Yeah as far as elliot. Zanan religion go He said When he was interviewed for the documentary yulia kazan an outsider. He said that I believe only in the goodness of man in this he. I mean he used to be a communist. Obviously that's what is his S money was about and it's a central tenet of communism. Eight theism is a is a central tentative communism. You know so. I mean you're making from the group theatre It just he was a member of You know the the intellectual left. So i mean very few of those people were practicing religious. Time in general will. Yeah i mean so kevin what you just said in kevin how on the nose carl meldons speeches about about About why should rat basically Cow is cut a time as any to talk about just the politics of this movie. I'm sure you guys know but just poured the listeners. Just like a brief history. I guess he was. He was in the he was in the communist party possibly in the thirties. Is that when the nine thousand nine hundred thirty four. He was out a year and a half later. Yeah okay so he. He was in the communist party worrisome in the thirties and and and and and then the fifties the red scare and the car theism came in and they were asking people to testify for husak. The house on americans activities committee and he was one of the And basically you're pushed into a corner because if you if you testified on your cancer trader but if you didn't you're blacklisted from hollywood He was hit was one of the people that chose to testify in it hot his career for years later on the even when i think it was nineteen ninety nine when he was accepting his lifetime achievement award at the oscars. And if you look at the footage like half. The people aren't standing. Nick nolte they cut to him and he's just sitting there with his arms crossed like he's just like actively pissed But mitigating factors with regard to his testimony that makes it different from the average. Hvac testimony the okay. I mean in particular. Most of the people who are being called before the hvac didn't have another lucrative career that they can turn to talk about this broadway. He was in active. I mean he was the most successful broadway director of the preceding decade. And there was no blacklists in the new york broadway. I mean he you know he. He could have told the. Ajc where to go empty still worked on broadway. And that's exactly what arthur miller did and that's exactly what arthur miller asked him to basically you know because he apparently took this walk in the woods with arthur miller trying to decide what he was gonna do before he appeared for the second time the first time he he pled the fifth or did whatever it is when you say you're not going to say but then but then if you know about a month later he went back. You named eight of his colleagues from the group theatre. He would go on to claim throughout the rest of his life that all those people had already been named so that it didn't matter that he had named them in fact six of the named previously But i think what really distinguishes kazan's hvac history with with most of the other people. I mean for instance blood schulenberg leisurely cobb who were also both friendly. Witnesses for ta racy didn't realize as interesting worry it it is that Kazan's case he took out this advertisement. You know like a few days. After he gave the testimony he later claimed that the that the that the statement that he gave in this advertisement was written by his wife after he got a whole bunch of back about it. But if you blame it on the wife and it is this long screed about how people on the left. I mean he's not even addressing people on the right because you know why even you know but but he's basically saying like people on the left you know having if you know anything about communism to come forward and give this testimony because basically like this creeping specter he basically he. He gave the impression that he had testified for political reasons. When in fact he clearly testified for personal reasons he had fallen out with the group theatre people many years before he was not friends with people in the first place. I'm not saying that he did it to be militias. In fact he really didn't want to do it and he regretted of his life but he did it to save his career. He did not do it because he thought that. Communism was a danger in america. You know what i mean like. He's it was extremely disingenuous. You know and that. That's i think what a lot of people continued to hold against him. Years later is that not only. Did he do this. He basically patted himself on the back for it. And said you should do it too. And he continued to Say that afterward. It made him basically a better director. He was just like testifying. Made me a better artist. Made me made me a better artist. Because you know his smooth start doing better afterward. And i don't know if that was incidental. Well he said it freed him from the burden of other people's expectations he said basically that being ostracized by all of his friends in new york. And you know realizing you know that that you know if he stuck to his guns. It was gonna cost him he. It changed the way that he approached. His movies may basically decided that like. I'm just gonna lay it all out online. Because i've already become a pariah and what's important to me is expressing myself. In the most forthright way possibly can totally totally yes. Sorry about the the i didn't know about. This is supposed to walk in the woods. With arthur miller. I also asked him basically not just testifying that he could come to broadway etcetera but I wonder if that you know the charlie interior ticket. Take taxis scene where they're together in the taxi in charlie's begging him to take this job herreid shut up and just keep quiet. I wonder if that's kind of like a representation of the conversation. That with arthur. Miller were arthur miller's begging him not to testify and just come and work on product Interesting it certainly. It certainly seems like that. You're saying that it's a really really interesting point. Yeah i just think this movie is like it's impossible to see this movie in not read it through that lens which i think is so interesting. And that's that's part of the reason they struggled a slightly with the movie is just because the political allegories can't stop end end with testify. I mean i know in the fifties. They were thinking they were thinking that communism was so dangerous and stuff. But i mean this whole idea that lake Idea of like the mob controlling. Everyone's lives in and killing people and stuff. I mean like the communist party in the fifties because obviously not like a crime is not like a crime family. So i mean i. It's it's sort of odd to me that like it seems like it seems like so he. He was so focused on the testifying aspect. And i think that's part of the that that does seem to be a lot of the blowback for him is the fact that this movie is kind of him. Doubling down on his reason to testify. It's fair to note though that he didn't write the film bud shubert roads. Okay okay because they have had input. They worked together on the formation of a script. They definitely guided it together. But but it wasn't only his input. You know i'm in. It's fair to say that there are there are other perspectives involved. But i think there's too much correlation between his personal history antares history to take clearly and. I think that you're right that it's very. It's very reductive to compare the communist party to the mob running z docks. I mean it's it's ridiculous. Frankly and it's a it's a loaded metaphor It's a you know. I mean the film I'd like it it. it's on its face. It's kind of like a social problem movie if you're in an giang closet but really it's a melodrama as such. I know the music right referred seen score really be talking about that yet. Yeah dramas is the ambiguity of terry's character but you have the characters even murray saying and father berry who never put a foot wrong and art is completely blessed people and then you have the horrible people on the other side you know. I mean there's something that's really very reductive about the entire moral enterprise of the film and i think that having the focus be about the waterfront corruption really really takes away from the power of the film. I think it's i think the film is is is better appreciated. Just as a as the personal journey of terry became in a more conscientious person. You know and. I think that the testimony is really just kind of incidental and i think that in particular that's exemplified by the fact that notwithstanding all the personal growth that he over undergoes over the course of the film it is only the death of his brother that actually moves him to testify He's still arguing with easy when he breaks into her house and sexually assaults her right before like. He's still arguing with her. You know over. Like i don't know what you may do. I don't wanna do it. Because that's my all step. He's he sees his brother hanging from a meat hook that he is actually moved to do the right thing you know. And so i mean i think in his case there's a great deal of moral complexity and it stands in great relief to all the other characters who are kind of cutouts and that way well. I think this is a good time to interject. This was going to be my draft pick. Oh we'll we'll let blue. Just the whole has moved into your traffic than i mean. We've already pretty much gone through the whole point of it but for me like i watched it the first for the first time about six years ago or more seven years ago and And then just recently like last night and so between that point and last night. The one thing that i had remembered from the movie was the whole Political background and And the red scare and And that whole component. And i just remember remember that just being a huge Kind of eye-opening experience as a high schooler. Just trying to understand that whole perspective. And i think And so for me. And i was just the first thing i thought of when we were thinking of the draft like i have to like. That's the first thing that i remember about the film and that really stuck with me through the whole sort of talk about talk with the Anything else you guys want to touch on with you act before we move on here Just like very very small is vans Interpretation of the longshoremen as the people who are going from blithely deity your ride or die like where ever money into our homes food on the table through this John character who is supposed to represent the communist party just completely despite what sort of efforts father berry anterior malloy are taking even after materialize testimony. Even pop shunned him. You know even. I mean of the guys who have been sort of like kind of in on the maybe getting to the bottom of joy. Doyle's murder completely shunned him. Doll talks to him. Don't want anything to do with him. Call him a canary column etc. But then once he gets his ask kicked by the communist party by john friendly and his cinder like a little already to stand with you. Now all you gotta do is walk and we'll follow you in as just like this blind faith that he's longshoremen are showing think is completely true. Dimensional where it's just like okay. Well if we don't have this dictator we're going to go with this other guy who is just oppose the dictator. It's just so weird. It's so weird. I think. Richard upon something it of this guy. This other filmmaker who during the guy lindsay anderson. He's most famous for making this movie with malcolm mcdowell. If his kids like that one yeah well back back in the fifties. He was running a magazine in england. And he said the ending of the film whether consciously or not is basically a fascistic that And i assume that he's referring to the elements that she's talking about this sort of strong man complex. The longshoremen seemed to have rang. I was thinking the same thing there. I think that the people tend to think of elephant in the room is the hugh extra. The elephant in the room at the end of the movies really sill in some ways. It's more of an argument in favor of fascism or communism in that like there's a strike at the end of the movie like they're standing up to the head of the factory the head of the head of the committee in some ways it's sort of. It's sort of pro worker. I mean choline off the fascist point. I was like the end of this. Movie is a lot like petro which we saw your pretty recently which is a very fascist ending to a movie but Yeah i completely agree with that. Very very opposed to hitler. But hitler loved the film so i mean he took the same one definitely read into the same. Want to politicize this. You know the version of it. You know what i mean. The under tons of a political at the end after the entire whole point of the movie was for him to testify. You see it's just like a fascist guys analysts pro union and we want give us union. We're not only you're just like okay. This is communism this executive i was. Yeah so what are you really saying. Yeah to me. It seems like the end of the movie is supposed to be analogy. Gory for like the stations of the cross which obviously doesn't reach me as someone who's not religious based on the berry stuff earlier in all that it seems to me like they're clearly making at least implicit comparison to few to jesus with with various conclusion. Which is sony solid political and religious tones throughout to where they become extremely entangled in. Find which i think is still really prevalent today. Where a lot of people's political beliefs really hinge on their religiously. Yeah yeah. I think that's a really good point. Yeah that's a really good point. I think the i think the end in tangles a lot of things and it's sort of you know it's sort of hard to know where i mean i mean so i i'm attributing Attributing the passage of the story Zan i mean it's hard to know where what the the political message of the movie is kinda supposed to be. I mean it's clearly like pro testifying pro like truth coming out but it's it's I i think you're right. The that there is some entanglement. I also just wonder if they left it. If they purposely made it ambiguous sadda- it wasn't necessarily calling out one side a little too much. That's a good point. Yeah i it'd been left more ambiguous. Frankly i off if it ended after he gave his testimony. And i think that one of the big climax you know but like i was selling richard. They had like a courtroom are know. Johnny friendly blue avenues. Like you're done you'll never work again. Even had his when done us speech there and kind of like left it where you're like. Oh is he gonna get murdered by stugz like art. The sweet smell of success happen exactly. Is the waterfront crime commission gonna crack down. You know it's our and tearing you never really know if the very edge you just say you know father burien eating arm and arm looking at each other like we did this and tears length draghi as leg appear all bloodied and bruised and your dislike. All he would be dead for. There's that beating without being completely unconscious at least and most likely dead. He's gonna go and swing a hug for twelve hours. Get outta here. You know superhuman prize boxer hottest man alive. I understand but i think he's just a total because again the door to door everybody will go anti cloud and take a day off. Take the day off. Come back tomorrow while we could playboy magazine exactly exactly. Yeah i think. I think my favorite thing but this movie is probably just how crazy it feels like. I mean like. It's so odd because the fifties and i feel like i just feel the seventies coming on like it's like you know i mean it was not common at that time to shoot everything on location like that it's true it's sort of the other movie that i just saw recently was the naked city which i don't know if you guys have seen but that's movie it's everything on location. That's just so spectacular. In in in the same there are six billion stories on the macon city so ten years ago. Yeah that's that's awesome Gal the voice over in that but Yeah like the on location stuff is like is to peraza. I mean it reminds me. I think possibly like the black and white but it runs like paging bowl with kind of like the boxer in the slums and everything is very different story. But but i mean it just it it it. It feels in so many ways like you're skipping over the sixties just straight into the scorsese Polity plays that you get in the seventies. i dunno. it's so cool that way. That's on the waterfront. So it's really interesting that you say scorsese To him it was like a complete game. Changer represented seeing you know his own kind of people on the screen for the first time and even though the milieu is mostly irish in on the waterfront. I mean he's still you have 'til you have track enemy. Just the idea of seeing the first generation people this sort of ethnic representation on the screen to him was a huge breakthrough in the fifties. I think that makes a lotta sense. It feels a lot like he loves the movie. He's on the special features for the criterion release of it. Yeah that makes sense. I think he. I think he stood with lia poor that oscar speech that i was talking about to. I think he was on stage. One of his his most adamant defendant based theon. Yeah and yeah. I mean the also also the bull comparison i mean. Obviously i think terry much nicer man than jake lamotta. But but I was struck when you mentioned that. By how similar. I think physically. Cathy moriarty eva. Marie saint dr. It's like you know they're almost like a very fitting analog actually but when we watched the melodies on similar yeah we watch this documentary illeg kazan outsider where someone accused him of always having a blonde woman in rank in all his movies ever say in her mike right for. We're like we're off like the one time rhop's not in she's at home mentors slip in tiered. You know i'm gonna kiss you. You're right seen in general craxi because he's banging on the door she gets up. She fixes her hair. Looks like walking. the so reminds me of I think it's dial m for murder where i think it was. Grace kelly talking to hitchcock and was like why what. I put on my robe. If i'm going to the door or something like that. If i if i thought my husband was coming to the door and and so it kind of changed the way. They played out the scene a little bit. But i'll tell was fun. It has like tad's such an odd scene. I mean it looks in some ways like the getting of porno with him just like busting boards. She's like i mean much better acting. Obviously my god but you do get that moment where you're like. Oh she's gonna let him in you know she's fixing her hair waves second second and then she was like no. I'm laughing. The door watching the sheet to her chest. She's like what you want me to forget it. You know she's like. I say i love you. Stay a sexual assault which appear since as marlon brando. But no it's horrible. You know he just like totally grabs her thrust. This corner dislike kisses her into submission. I have a little bit of a problem with it. I'm gal of course you're like. Oh let aside. Because it's brando in its melodramas fifties also like had you know you have. A good guy is a total gentlemen with her up until then yeah no totally pige luggage other like in that scene. Where just like eac- lane doesn't age doesn't age Are super romance exactly exactly. It just plays her tango brando's stuff that's true percent here for. I'll go on record. I love that movie friday. I mean it's just one of the best movies i've ever seen and i know everybody hates it so i really can't be superman. Itary molloy's sexual assault when i am South purported lover of I have not yet seen last perez. I'm very excited to see it. I i heard brandon interview. Said one time that that lasting kind of broke him and so every louis Tari what's up yeah he. He said he wouldn't reveal himself like that anymore. Right or something like that. Yeah yeah and he said like every movie after that he he was honing it in but he said like the audience didn't notice the difference or something like that that's funny which is great But yeah i just love that quote about brando. I'm trying to think if there's any in notes here. Oh the leonard bernstein. I mean so this is apparently the only nonmusical he scored and he wanted to get his Get their money's worth it is. It's it's a huge part of the movie. I mean for better and worse. You know there are times. When i think it's like very intrusive and i need to turned the movie down but at the same time like i gotta say the strings contender speech. Which is the exact same music cue from when he finds strongly on the hook in thing like i did. I hear strings tonight. S immediately start weeping. So i mean i got him to him for that as i totally I think the only problem. I have with. It is just like after seeing grass side story. I'm just creating for guys to when your red jet yara like. I'm just i'm just waiting for the like the jump in q at year is weird clashes and whatever but i mean yeah. The scores awesome in. This is great is loud. yeah it comes up a lot of brass. Wow brazzi i feel like i'm like whoa all over again. I dislike. i drove or let me go. get my gear. Yeah totally totally yeah. It's a big part of the movie. i don't think we have time for parley. Another round of the draft but like any any Any other random thoughts about the movie. Oh well you know. I think it's a. I think it's very much an actors movie. You know that his an was the first to say at this time in his career that he didn't have a a particularly sophisticated visual sense. I like a lot of the location shooting. Like all steam across the street from the church. And all that. But i mean it's a film Where situation we already talked about. How kind of juiced melodramatic it is. I mean it really comes down to the performances. And if you if you're not someone who appreciates like a theatrical style is likely not going to sit that well with you. But i think that if you can if you're if you're down with prolific realism vibe. I mean it's like there's a freshness to the performance that really is extremely uncommon for the air unanimity. You just don't you don't see performances. Are this lively from early. Nineteen fifties built. I think lively is a really good word. Just yeah it. Just at ti trich lively they. Just yeah i mean it it. If you watch old movies it does. It does sometimes take you a second to get into even even agree performance. Her former like patty davis katherine hepburn. Consume stylize. you know if you're if you're watching it now and they're still great but it can seem stylized that i like this. I just feel like anyone can watch this movie. And just and just just you see the acting just like oh my god. It's it would work for any generation of people just know electric. The story is very simple and can be read on. Everyone's face i mean. Everyone is so expressive. I mean sometimes to the point where it's ridiculous like when eva marie saint's running out of the bar. It's you know you you can. You can feel him being. You feel how cold it is. You see everybody's breath totally pulled over and that's this. He told spiegel totally totally. I'm paker any thoughts about the movie. Mostly i'll just throw in on top of brando's performance is just honestly. Has he ever looks better in this movie. That's going to objectify for a moment. If i may for small wings. Jade by the now's where he looks. You know exactly. And then on their day especially to me was real. And i do think that there is a really smart kind of framing device going on in the bar scene with on their date with easy. You see her by the jukebox. Behind her behind brando. There is a stained glass partition of some sort. It's he's perfectly framed in this thing. Start seeing that transformation on his face and he just looks like this bulldog of where you're like. Yeah they can be totally scary but they're usually just very sweet and you just want them to. Slop are all over you. And you're fine with that and that there's just like a little bit of correlation of that very small religious nod as well where it's like. Oh he's like framed in this thing blast. He's like the patron saint of the waterfront. Like he's going to become kind of like that crucifixion. Alden would say i really martyred for this normally. He would he would have been martyred they would have killed him. By of course has its the melodrama that he to he gets to sort of send That role but mad. He's so freaking on ungodly good-looking in this mary. akin focus. Sometimes it which makes me sound like a total perv. But i myself. I can't help key to switch to wrap things up. I i dunno togan Tie usually ask my guests to pick a quote from a movie that they love in to that quote in character We have two guests. We have the opportunity to closing quotes which is very exciting Unless you guys have one that you want to do together. Whatever i'm over wants to go first. If you have a quote in my you. Were peter falk from husbands. If you could just lay would be terrific. He's literally talking to like a sixteen year old asian shake any of the bronze hotel room to bang. And she's laying on the bed crying like yells at her. That's that's so funny. He's kinda a story because he was. He was med school in l. a. and he and he was walking. related cafe. He's walking back to his car is two. Am as walking is walking through the streets of la the eighties. Any walks past colombo will call. You walks peter falk and he goes. Hey it's colombo. Peter falk that's how you doing. But that's like this amazing talks about that all the time. You look excited. Take your what's your. What's your close quote. So as we established harold and maude top. Top top tier films for both of us. So ruth gordon is very near and dear to my heart. I love her. i think she's amazing. And so i'm going to do a quote from rosemary's baby is the scene where mia farrow and has goto the kassovitz apartment for dinner. The very first night and they're talking about the pope and she's just hockey game about how much money they spend. She's like i can just imagine the buddy and i spent rounds in jail. Really good these spinney. All of their clothes their they're blaming you know just super super earth. Does it great. Ruth gordon impression. Great peter faulk oppression. It's it's been it's been arhab you guys is has been super fun having great seeing guys gracie. Hey guys. Have you ever thought about launching. Your own podcast. 'cause i a couple years ago i was trying to figure out where to launch The senate floor podcast. I was looking around and I had a lot of questions of dislike. How do i record. Where do i upload distribute the episode and anchor made it just super super easy Anchors the one stop shop for recording hosting distributing your podcast festival. It's one hundred percent free and ridiculously easy to use. And now anger can match you with great sponsors. Who want to advertise on your podcast. This means you can get paid to podcast right away. In fact that's what i'm doing right now by reading this I've been using anchor for a few months. Now to distribute the podcasts in. It's just been very very helpful for that You can go on Anchor dot fm slash. Start to join me and the diverse community podcasters already using anchor. That's anger dot. Fm slash. Start look forward to hearing your podcast. Thank you for listening. Another episode of center flag. I will see you next week.
S5 07 | A Confession
"This is an abc podcast. Listeners are advised. This episode contains details of violence against women and some occasional course language almost a year since i've been back to new zealand my home for nearly two decades. The have hold his very very empty. And it's very very weird. Usually as i sit at the departure gate getting ready to board the plane. I'm excited but this time. I was nervous. This trip felt like a loss chance the last chance we had to find out what might have happened to win. Ada outspoken two. Everyone left alive connected to the carousel club except one that person was shine. Martin simmons shine was one of the men who tried to kidnap my aunt. A been looking for him for months. But i hadn't turned off anything solid. But i did get one tip awhile back about wishing could be march odd found out shine and i shared connection in new zealand. So while a pip. Kept digging deeper into abe saffron. I took a chance and booked a fly. But things didn't quite and up the way i'd hurt. I'm karen mckay. This is unravel reneta episode. Seven a confession. Okay so i up. I need to tell you the reason. I'm going to oakland. It's one of those coincidences they tell you not to ride in class on crime fiction something that happened literally just before. I moved back to australia to look into a native case. I was taking a lesson with a makeup artist. Code abbie gardner was part of getting prepared to make the tv version of this podcast. We got chatting as you do. And i told her what else working on. We talked all about my family about data and the two men who went to jail for trying to kidnap her the usual reaction. I get when i tell people shoot shocked and fascinated and i thought that's where we'd ended so we wrapped up. The lesson was right on the verge of hitting australia. When i got a dam from abby it said. I wanted to tell you a very strange thing that happened to me. Since we met and spoke about your family went home and asked my mom. Did she ever remember a woman that got murdered in king's cross in the nineteen seventies and my mom said yes i do. Abby said. her mom died had shane. Apparently that live together in the nineteen seventies in oakland. Just before he moved to australia and before were needed disappeared. Place create again so. Welcome to one of those. Who are getting farley. actually backup after. I grabbed my bags and got a high a car. I drove straight to abbey's place to meet him. Mom christine on the way there. My mind was racing. I had so many questions for christine about shine have i. Here's what was shine like. Did she keep in touch with him. Did he ever say anything about when adolf zealand. I did upstate. Yes we'll go up. Stays a look. I can remember everything. I remember where we loved and lots of things about him. I remain by the way smelt all sorts of things like that. It's still very clear tonight. He walked straight to walk up. Funny here just sort of a funny walkie head to remember the night that you mentioned social joe. As soon as i said to shine that i could say he was really interested in me because he wanted to start a means clothing business. Christine was only seventeen when she met shane. Who was in his early twenties. She was young but independent already. Living out of home he moved them with me more or less straight away into the flat. That i was renting just a warning here. The story christine is about tallies graphic. My family liked him because he sort of time to me for a while of you know what i mean like how did drome. He made a coffin that was outbid coffin. Pippa lining inside was just wide of the normal coffin. So two people could sleep it year. Painted a great big dave on the wall for the tile and yet built this was just like a coffin for two people in the east slipped into the we sleep. I have my own room as well. Casey brought someone who he tied the other ladies into the coffin. I wasn't quite sure what to say. I'm not really the sort of person who had pry. And someone's personal life but christine launch right into this story about the coffin and the other women but i feel this is really important because it shows what type of person shane was and what he might have been capable of so with your relationship where also throws word that. If he came home i had to always behind him boy's to end usually. I wasn't allowed to wear any talk. Okay even if people come to the harlem used to be just with the dog cola. yep and cooler master. This is a bit awkward. it's territory. I wasn't really expecting. And then she told me something else now. This next part is disturbing. You might want to skip ahead about minute. I mean that's pretty tough experience to go through. I mean banks seventeen yes like at one stage. I was his property at one st. He said okay. I want you. So i've got a niece or my on my but he -fession day s. l. of wire up on the starve. Jesus marion dry. Save lie down on the kitchen floor and did that but the thought of having his mark on me forever. i did it. he never did. Anything was all consensual. What went on between us but he never did anything. I don't even think either shelter that may or did anything like that to me. Never hurt me in any way. Anything that happened between us was consensual at the time. This is pretty hot stuff to purchase as we keep talking about all the things he did to her and the things he made her do. I can't help he just how much these men wanted to control her. I do believe christain when she says she understood her relationship with shane as consensual. But it does seem to have come at a cost and sort of affected my life really now that i think you know my relationships with main of never really gone all that well i always think that maybe it was that i wondered what would have happened if someone like shine came up against a woman like data christine said after the broken up and he'd gone to australia. She and shane didn't keep in touch other than a phone call. He made to her out of the blue in late. Nineteen seventy five. A few months after one eight disappeared but he didn't mention my aunt. I had to ask christine one final question. Do you think it's possible. Shine was involved. I find it quite hard to believe but sort of why. I don't like to think of anyone that i've been with really could do anything like that. And he wasn't a violent man at all. i just can't see him outwardly. Fishing somebody maybe he was there. I think maybe he took part on. That may be taking or abducting her. And i can see him doing that but i can't see him actually bushing her bureau. Do you think it's possible. I'd already done apol- of hunting for a car and address for shane himself and at all came to nothing but i did manage to get a of fish. Shame son his name is slade. We spoke for awhile and he didn't want to be recorded as soon as we hung up. I called my producer. Sarah alley Might be awkward. I think your dad you a relative of mine in the nineteen seventies And her name was juanita nelson And he went all the dark knight. Anything bailey. My father He really got tonight him about threes ago and then slade to leave at the bad news. He died last year. i take. I couldn't believe it after traveling here to find him then hearing he was dead not being out spe to him was really frustrating. I'd had so many questions for him so after talking to sarah. I packed up my laptop open suitcase and got ready to leave early the next morning back in sydney. I got stuck searching for evidence to confirm that. Shane was dead. Death cemetry lists both in new zealand and australia searched under his birth name. Derek but still nothing. Maybe he changed his name again. It's not like i think. Shane son is lying. But like with everything in my aunts story. I just wanted to know for sure. Shine seem to be. Maybe the last person who might have been able to shed some light on. What happened to her. No he say no more awful speculation no more of all this weighing on my family but it felt like that door had closed the loss of this hung over me for a while. I kind of felt like our investigation into my aunt's disappearance had really stalled. But then one of the people that i really wanted to make. I didn't know if i could find the not anyway. They have been put on e. pippen. I had found something i think. His evidence is absolutely game-changer. Someone and the story that this person has got is just mind. Blind to me. An absolutely thrilling. Because it's unexpected howdy pippen. I sat without producer. Sarah in car on an overcast sydney morning. We're outside the office of a man. Who story has never been told. We were wanting to find out who murdered our cousin washy. She was murdered. Or and maybe today we're going to get some mill way forward on answering that at least don't you think yeah. Yeah well i think he'll be after. Give some really good information. It's raining idea. There was a sense of anticipation. I think that some people are very courageous. People in this world. And i think my cousin were native us and i think this man we're going to speak. Today was another person who stood up and did the right thing when neda in her life was a person who stood up and she had to tell the truth who she saw it no matter to whom and i. I think. I have a feeling that this person today is going to have a big story now. I thought we'd covered some truly incredible stories in this podcast so far. But this next one. It's massive. okay. Thank you so much for being here on a pip is incredibly grateful that you're talking to us. The person sitting across from us is a man named john in us. He looks like what you'd think a corporate lawyer would starch. White business shirt press navy blue pants john sitting comfortably in this large boardroom and feels like he could talk forever. Well when know some disappeared. I was just out of school. John has never told the full story. He's connection to my aunt's case but it's not like he hasn't wanted to for legal reasons. He hasn't been allowed to the thing that i'm interested to know now is after all this time. You're talking to us so i've decided to talk to us. And how dome new approach didn't impress ios. Having not talk to anyone about about. This thing was not properly investigated. The justice hasn't been done here. I think the whole newest one of this went off track now. Jones stories extraordinary and parts of it. A hard to prove without corroborating evidence. Almost forty years later. He's what he says happened back in the early nineteen nineties john was in his early twenties. And at uni studying law. Part time i was living at home at that point in time with my parents studying a working. He says he was working. The state attorney. General's department as an inspector of investigations looking into financial roots and scams. I'm while he was a. He was selected for a detective training. Course with the new south wales place academy. John says the cost meant he trained as a detective but wasn't a police officer not long after he finished. The course was at high when evening when he got a knock at the door. We're going to visit at about seven o'clock and it was calkins to take charge of the homicide squad misconduct allowed on mother a little bit. It was expected. That name might seem. Familia carl arkan's. He was one of the detectives in charge of investigating. Data's case. Let's come in. We had a cup of coffee and said look. I'm looking for someone to assist in the queries. Intimate nelson's disappearance and i couldn't quite see the connection. Molly be talking to me but as soon became these is looking for someone that had investigatory. Experience is looking for someone that was unknown but experienced in these areas some understood in a frenzy wars said john sounded perfect someone that could conduct themselves in an investigation on civilized someone to go undercover inside jail because it was a operation is looking for someone that could be embedded the to extract information extract information from a person awaiting cord on attempted kidnapping and that personal target extract information. From was it would treat it. That's right eighty trick. Eddie was in long by gel at the time awaiting trial for attempting to abduct when aitor. John says he was requested to go undercover. Get to know eddie and then report back to place with any information and that it was important. He had some understanding of the law. Jonathan studying it for three years by this point and had a degree in accounting and this is the genius of it when he explained it to me also that is really clever. He wanted to invent someone. You've got to have a reason for being there. You gotta the reason to make him want to talk to you. And the reason was someone would legal qualification. Could give him advice about. He's matter could talk to him about his case and use that as the pretext to build a relationship stock quality extract information from. John says he and detective atkins spent a few months notting out. What would obviously be an extremely dangerous operation. Plans contact how they would get him out quickly if necessary and how to cape covert now. You might be wondering why. Choose a law student instead of a place officer. John says there was a reason for that too. There were still lingering within the ranks of the police force alzheimer's that were corrupt. Guys was still there lurking and if this goes through those channels compromise. Would you be but john says he insisted. They limit the number of prison staff who knew about the operation. It all sounded incredibly dangerous to me. Almost no one knowing who you really are and what you're doing there and for the people who did know your life depending on them keeping their mouths shot. John says his mission wall in there was clear. What pro re purpose of. This inquiry was extract information about the money trial. Nothing else wasn't about with the body was or anything like that. it was about the money trail. We'll come back to this money. Trail soon. That i john says they had to have a reason for him to be locked up because one thing about the prison populations they all know why. You're there you gotta have a back story then. The day came for john to go to prison. He said he was told to come into darling. Her police station where he was bundled into a police. Van couldn't just going to get it. Lifted the longboat prison complex and walk through the front guy. When john arrived corrections officers escorted him from the van processed him then delivered him to remind the pot of the jail where prisoners awake then. Next court date sell directly across from tree. Twenty feet away eddie. Trigg had already been at long bay for a few months awaiting trial for conspiracy to abduct one eight now. John was right across the whole from him. And this is where john would staife and neely three months. I think it's hard to convey. Just how dangerous. This situation could be not only was drawn tasks with befriending eddie trink. He told us he'd end up sharing his cell with a vicious and infamous murderer. You cock silva yourself. It's going to raise too many questions i mean. Was this person getting some special thing. So i'm no spending days with two murderers one says you path among strategies most notorious killa once. He was settled in john's first. Job is to get to know eighty. And you do that just boy. Initially passing talking morning have coffee then. He made it obvious he was a law student. He had organized with the plays detective outside the prison to have some books delivered the other thing that brought him over the mind. So was that we arranged with ireland's to bring in whole stack of legal materials. Pump atomic pinched. Laura office was ridiculous. We have jobs. Legal looks on criminal law. Books on evidence. Power buddy materials. John used as palls of books as bite. People were person look in and they was directly opposite. He's always the door chatting this thing. And that started to lead into the scottish about or my court pipes. Which is exactly what i want him to do. Thought gotcha not burn. Eddie's request also came with a warning anyone of deceived him or stall from him or city map in any way. He made a quietly what he would do it. Grab my hand and put it in the cell. The frame the jam in the door and they sell doors are ten times. The car on this solid steel. I said this is what happens and slammed on didn't slam beneath through the motions showed eddie started spending more time hanging out in john's cell. He gave john always. Lego documents and john pretended though new and interesting extracting information building that trust before it could get down to things about the money which is really was there the next logical thing to ask him what. I've been focused on this believing represented by l'egalite who's paying few legal fees What's the story. I said not normally light. That's being paid for me. Just being provided fully should provide for who they said sappho. That's right. I safran had been paying eddie's legal phase. This was raised at when asia's inquest. I've safran admitted. It came out of a carousel club account but blamed tim anderson. Then they started talking about. Eddie's play and joan clued into something increasingly evident that he hadn't made a decision about how he was gonna pleat and i got the distinct impression the by talking about this play of building in this indecision that something more was going on here is playing off in the people that were really behind this with him. Distracted him to do this plying them off of bit to keep them sort of been in suspense about which way he's going to go the parties of behind the scenes. He which of course his anderson several he was playing these people to try and extract. String them along with the idea that he might not play guilty and therefore there would be hearing. That matters would gather evidence. More would come out. And sandra can't apply the saffron. Addison but that was the clear impression that i got john. Says eddie seemed to be tossing up whether to plead guilty in an attempt. To extort carousel club manager jim anderson and crime boss abe saffron if this was the case i wondered what it was eddie knew that he thought he could hold over them as eddie's trial approached. John says his new prison buddy became increasingly agitated. Costly revisiting this question of how we should plead guilty or not guilty and what was the luckily sentence but then he said well actually no matter what i played on being looked after was the way he put it and i said well. What do you mean. And he said that seventy thousand dollars being placed in this list of trust account expecting him to plead guilty said seventy thousand dollars for guilty plea. I say that's interesting. i said. This solicited malcolm johnson cow. Now i've never had a male johnson of course active for several said john is saying it seemed eddie was being paid via abe saffron solicitor when solicitor from the firm was questioned about whether eddie was their client. They said they engage with him but didn't initially register him in their accounting system. It seems strange to me. Given they said he was a client of days already and had represented him in previous mattis. The seventy thousand payment came up at the inquest but when detectives looked into it couldn't corroborated a corporate affairs investigator. Who is helping the detectives conceited. They might be alternative explanations. That may be the money had been split up into. Smaller amounts sent to an account under a different name. Or maybe it was cashing hand making it harder to detect. If eddie was paid it was a lot of money. Said you realize what that means. I said that's the average salary is i. Didn't grant year if you get a three year sentence with six months. John dory said you'll getting a pretty decent salary to sit around in the sun for the next to us when the trial came. Eddie did plead guilty. John believes eighty took steal. It made sense. I think i wouldn't have wanted the case to go to fool trial for fear of what might surface john had also mentioned to mandelson's name. I wondered how he could have been linked tool this. He told very rarely abedin addison. It was always a mess ephraim. And i think that's very telling saint to be focusing in other reports and other lines of inquiry anderson. It's interesting to me too. Because i'm pretty convinced from everything i've read and heard by now. The jim anderson had some involvement in were natives disappearance. some maybe abso- from gave the k. And jim put together the tamed. Get it done. Which included eighty Hip and i would came to know what happened after eddie had decided to plead guilty. And that's when our chat with. John took doctorine. The covered operation had to come to an end the moment he was sentenced. That's it had to be out of the that was adopted on the covert operation. So we're fast approaching that died in the last week or so. They had together in jail. John tried a new tack him. Actually what you need to think about now. Is that only deals with the abduction charge. You need to think about new charges. That might be light. Because i am finishing bisa getting this matter. You need to think about this. And that started lead us into a different set of evidence was not the financial evidence other evidence about nato took him through murder. Charges neelam emerge elements of kidnapping and civil. I mean what happened. The carousel and he said well you know. We made the appointment to see if advertising tossing and she turned up she was still between. He told me she was a between eleven. Thirty and twelve thirty. I said oh. Okay i did dump in real sale. Who else was it. I said well that actually that rehearsing all the goals were rehearsing that morning. And i told him to leave the left okay. Is it what what happened. I said When went upstairs and had chitchat and she told me she'd gone after lunch. And i said well she can do something with the appetizing must have discussed appetizing now. I said to you gotta to talk to lord marshall about that. It does the promotions and advertising. He's next door at the leader seeing if they want to place in your heads while you're here for accommodation and that's the excuse that he used to get to leave now. All stop here for a sec. Because on pip. And i really couldn't believe what we were hearing. Remember lloyd marshall. I spoke with him in an earlier episode. He was the promotions guy the carousel he was charged but acquitted for conspiracy to abduct juanita when we spoke to him. Lloyd swore he had nothing to do with juanita's death now to be cle- john's not saying loyd was actually at the venue next door he saying eighty told when aitor loyd was at the later as a ruse to get her there mention. If the lehto is interesting it's right next door to the carousel. This reminded us of something. We'd heard before. Which would always wondered if it was his i. It's that some people think when ada was killed day instead of the carousel people like journalists tiny raves and berry ward according to john's version eighty left the carousel with when ada out a side door to the later she walked out portfolio retreat trigger escorted her out so she wasn't roughed up op stays in the bill i ip lange. She didn't go out the normal entrance of the carousel. Which is the front door rosenstein. She was taken out the door on the eastern saw which leads into leader motel next door to concord jabbed. That's as she exited the building. And there's one single cost base there. What happened nicht. I said what happened to the leader said well he said i took her inside the latest. The don't which you've been left open forum and suddenly western saw the lead lidove coming into that courtyard area with the two buildings. Join now this next. Bit is pretty explosive and just a warning that it's violent so could be confronting for some and then what happened. He said to me. I took her into the restaurant. And you said out. Throttle struck me at the time because he is the throttle. It's unusual to easy and it's not forgotten. It's a much better monitor the sense okay. What do i do next. Next on a pip turns to me her eyes wide. I know her head spinning as much as mine. John goes on those words. I throttled her hanging in the air. I didn't. I didn't ask you what they did. With the body. It was getting so hard in this questioning the session. Also much further here. It's going to pretty bloody obvious that i'm building down into stuff you know. I never asked the question about well. What did you do with the body. And he never offered it. I was still getting out of the So there wasn't a gunshot. There wasn't any evidence. But that's where it was done on our exactly where she was killed. Hashes she was killed. Who killed how much they got paid. And who painting you said. Throttle member the word clearly. How did you shock domino. Jesus is getting this really serious. He is this is on the pretext of me. I've tried to position this assign. Well what possible charges could be in a football ground here. Aiding and abetting kidnapping mode era trade. Tell you why he met at when ada o- other than she was a trouble mark. You did describe trouble film that this image of data's loss moments made me physically ill the violence and horror of it. The last piece of information that gave me was there was one other person in the restaurant. And that was Simmons shine mountains was and he helped him take the body to the car that was already in the cost base in the cordial. So eddie put shine right in it. The other man charged with conspiracy to abduct. When ada john explains the kaas face at the lido is narrow meaning. The distance was small enough to get one eight his body out of the building and into the car without being sane. No one's going to see that. This should not screaming. She's gone at that point now. After that what happened. I never asked how where they took the body. It was getting too way too dangerous. John says within twenty four hours of eighty treat confessing tornadoes killing. He was extracted out of jail. He met several times with police in the wake. Softer john says he remembers the detective scribbling pages and pages of notes and so. What did the arkansas do of that information. It really like. Every other leads lettuce ephron evaporated and of course having gone through what i went through When i look back you can't help but get angry about that. I mean have day he puts you in a position where you've achieved what he wanted to achieve with significant information and and then it doesn't get what was the point as we are. Detectives did look into the seventy thousand but didn't turn up anything as to the latoya. There's no mention of by police. At juanita's inquest. It doesn't appear. It was ever fully investigated when raised by journalists tourney raves and barry ward in nineteen seventy seven or by john genus in nineteen ninety-three. Janis clearly aggrieved frustrated. He's intel wasn't given enough weight. Hey says the place failed to properly follow the money trail and he risked his life for nothing. So you get at give three days of interviews and then nothing happens why not every lawn of inquiry the subtly steed towards seffrin identified saffron some shutdown. It doesn't go anywhere evaporates into the so. Why didn't the information that you reported. Go fair that. Walker frank walker. Well i think it was was blocked within the place. I never got frank. Wilco was the new south wales attorney general at the time remember. John was working the aj's department when he got tasked with this undercover job. Prior to the inquest frank woke had considered whether a royal commission or special investigation was merited into a natives case. John says the police prevented information. He gathered from coming to light at the inquest. And therefore the aj's attention to if it had been he thinks that might have meant a new investigation being called if the got to walker or if it had been led the inquest which it wasn't. It seems bizarre to me that this alleged confession of eighty triggs that he strangled off throttled juanita at the later motel was never raised at the inquest. And even though the money trail evidence was there. John believes police didn't do enough to substantiate it and promptly tie abe saffron into the plot to disappear data. There's unfinished business here. But it doesn't rely on the physical evidence or witnesses because many of them passed on. It's the money trial doesn't die. The records is still live. It's a thought. I hung onto his. We sit out goodbyes. To join us their records and a money trail that we haven't got to the end dove on e. pip my producer. Sarah and i sat down to debrief. I really appreciated his clarity and his determination. And he's savvy or whatever which lens value to my way of thinking about what he said. I believe the man so a good staff has changed. Who you think killed when ada or who is behind when i started out from the family's perspective who believed that it was absent from behind her murder and obviously we've crossed many paths that maybe it wasn't saffron so for me it's a bit of a confirmation of the fact that my family was on the right track so back at the beginning but i don't necessarily believe eddie was telling him the truth about the later. I have to be honest about that. I think maybe eighty was testing the waters with him. Karen why do you think that he would have told him that story. It wasn't true. Maybe eddie was kind of strong him off the track so that if he did go to the place then there wasn't any evidence as well. You know it's kind of like. Oh give him some information so that i get the legal advice einar but i'm not gonna tell him exactly what happened because if he takes the police and then i investigated in that way then. That didn't happen sir. It's still a protection will never know how much of what eddie told john was the truth and as much as we were grateful for him talking to us. Some of john's hair-raising undercover story. We can't fully corroborate but there are good reasons for that one it's the nature of covert operations. That is often very little official paperwork to it was almost forty years ago. And we do know because we've asked quite a few well-placed people who would that three. The records kept by place about undercover operations. Around this time he has to say the least so many of the details john has given us have checked out and it seems impossible to imagine how anyone could make all this up. John has no record of criminal convictions and has been a successful corporate lawyer and legal counsel for more than thirty years so he is what we absolutely do. Nar- we know. John did spend time in jail and we know he did get information. Out of eddie tree about the seventy thousand dollars an age saffron. I totally blamed what he told us. An anti pip did too we had intended that this episode would be the last one in our investigation that we'd be able to bring you a final thoughts and conclusions but these whole encounter with john inas has op ended our plan. I think that kind of brought us buys a lot of insight into not just eddie but also the bigger world of corruption and political machinations as. Well it's left us with plenty more to think about some new directions and depressingly confirmation about the darkness of this world and as far as apps have fun guys as he saw particularly described how everything went up in buffalo smoke and all of the investigations that would have led their naturally for maize. One night his cousin knowing my family felt before. I feel very comfortable at this point in saying that. I think i've suffering behind when it is a and we've also been left with the realization that when fight for her street she was up against forces that she couldn't fully comprehend and that we can't either all the numerous possibilities as to why she was actually gotten outta way. We might hit upon the right one. But i think that guy was so brutal. She was a troublemaker. It could have been just a simple as that. I'd had enough of her. You know so. It's pretty sobering to think a lotta people believe juanita's opposition to the development. On victoria street was and she was killed. But on a pip has turned up. Something really interesting something that might force us to racing part of this and you layer of complication between the main players at the time japan. And i've set front. Were in mortal combat. I think frank team and was the bunny. That's next time on one ada. If anything heard in this episode has caused a stress please reach out to the national domestic family violence counselling service one. Eight hundred are espn. It's a phone hotline and website. And if you're in australia you can also ring lifeline on thirteen eleven fourteen. By the way we put the issues raised by joining us to new south wales police and ask for response but they declined this season of unraveled. True crime is hosted by may. Karen mcgahee big. Thanks to my family for allowing me to tell the story special. Thanks as always to my aunt pip. If you know something about wanna get in touch Email is unravel true crime at abc dot net donahue a supervising producer. Is jana mcewan. The producer is sarah al-ali assistant production research and fact checked by jake malkin music and sound design by russell stapleton additional editing by tim jenkins as script editor is sophie townsend. The digital team is michael delaney. Annika blau an andrew davies. Big thanks to a is trust. Cast wia justin kelly and jane corners and thanks to the team from -tay production pot no wallpa- on rebels executive producer is an mauka. You've been listening to an abc. Podcast if you're looking for another gripe podcast check out the award winning true crime series trice. The informer follow the extraordinary story of australia's most controversial informer. Who was fading. The secrets of the world back to the police police needed a secret weapon. A nickel ghabra was at a crossroads. Did you say you without a crew. I didn't but i can see how they would've i had him turn up on my doorstep at my house threatening to kill me. She was under enormous pressure and looking for a wire trikes. Informer listen for free on the abc. Listen up or whatever you get your podcasts.
Hamlet Was Wrong
"Pushkin. A question was nagging me who killed truth? This truth problem, it isn't just bad. It's deadly. I'm Jill Lepore and I'm a historian at Harvard and a staffer at the New Yorker. I spent a lot of time trying to solve mysteries like this one. So I decided to start a podcast. It's called the last archive. Hell. Tell ten stories from the last hundred years a history of America and our arguments about truth and evidence. The last archive brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Here's what we're doing today. But he did, I'm to do an episode revisionist history. In which I you know I'm I'm obsessed with hiring of always been obsessed with. What I'm doing is I'm interviewing people I ever hired and you you the first riot. Wear that badge pretty proudly. We'll tell you what. Stacey cash my first assistant. Never had an assistant before the maybe fifteen years ago. Right? After publishing my second book blink I realized, I was spending all my time answering emails and booking travel instead of writing. So I. decided I needed some help. I didn't remember the circumstances under which you can't work for me. So I thought I would just ask you. Remind me again. How found you? A big theme of what follows is that I have no memory names, faces, dates, I. Basically forget everything. A normal person doesn't have to do research on their own life, but I'm afraid I do. Okay. So I have some funny funny memories. Around the whole hiring situation. So you found me how how it happened was I had just finished Grad school and is looking for a job. Stacy knew someone who knew someone who had an assistant who knew me or something like the very complicated anyway got stacy's name and just emailed her onto blue. Like you don't know me but I'm looking for an assistant. You know, would you be interested? We met the next day for coffee. We chatted for literally. I'M GONNA say all of thirty minutes. and. So yeah, we will. You are going to you traveling to south. Africa. Always spoke about of what I can remember is you'd sit, oh, you have an ax, you have an accent I'm like, yeah. I was born in South Africa and then move to Australia on going to South Africa for business or for. Your speaking engagements the next day, and so I think for about twenty minutes, all we talked about was like recommendations of what you should do in south. Africa that pretty much. I think was. Rigorous job in rigorous like, yes, you really vetted me through and through my knowledge on where best to eat in South Africa. We talked about that of an high remember hilariously being very concerned because I just got an a nose ring. And I remember thinking Oh. I don't know. Is he going to? I, take the nose ring out for the interview. Will he noticed this? Is. It. Proper professional of me and I? Literally, remember like maybe six months to a year later when I was obviously had been working for you that time and I said to you something about like, do you ever noticed that something about my nose ring came out? Oh, I didn't even know you had one. Agonized over whether to keep this nose ring in or not for fear that it would. No, it would be a bad look and you did not for the entire year. The first year that I worked for. You did not even notice that I had a nose ring. I didn't notice. Then I don't remember. Now, this is getting off to a bad start. My Name Is Malcolm Gabrielle. You're listening to my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. In this episode, I turned the unflinching analytic gays that is revisionist history upon myself. US Use our texts, the immortal lines, the New Testament. Matthew. Seven Verse Five Thou. Hypocrite. I cast out the beam out of nine own I. And then Shalt, thou. Seek clearly to cast out the moat out of THY BROTHER'S I. You had emailed me and we'd met the next morning because you're leaving. I think shortly after that for South Africa, we spoke for about thirty minutes twenty, twenty, five of which was about South Africa, and then you left and you said to me said Okay Great. You know I've got a couple of people that interview and I guess I'll be in touch when I'm back from my travel in like two weeks. Oh. Okay. Good to meet you a moving kinda nervous. You left the Holcombe after wait now for two weeks to find out and about I'M GONNA say ten to fifteen minutes later. My phone rang. I odd said it and you're like, Hey, it's Malcolm again. So listen you seem nice enough. Why are you just combined start tomorrow? The least professional IRA drive advert. Five years thing as well is I was like this must've been like a blink moment for him. I. Mean you had just finished writing blink. That's when I'd started with two thousand five right off that book and I remember laughing with you again a few months later well into. The job and saying you, you know when you hire me, you didn't. You didn't really vet me much Was it like a blink moment? You just knew and you said to me. Now, I just couldn't be bothered going or any more interviews. And you seem nice enough that was. Nice, I just didn't feel like interviewing anyone else. As. I've stated I remember none of this. But it all seems a little strange. Doesn't it? I was about to hand Stacey access to all of my business credit cards, male media requests. I would soon make her my main intermediary with the entire outside world. Did I appear to have read your resume. Skimmed maybe today ask you to remember if I asked you any questions about your . you have any credence work experience that was relevant. I had intern and worked at frontline, but I mean, that's more documentaries. Really, yeah it was. Obviously. Who Knew Frontline? Well, that's impressive. Done that might have might have hired you ten minutes and twenty five. Now, my first defensive reaction to a stacey was telling me was this was my first higher. What did I know? Then, she reminded me of someone else. Do you still work with the Budnick? God I'd forgotten that story the Budnick Budnick. Even. Though I have barely gotten started here. This requires digression. Well, that's a fun story from Miam-. You, I'd like to tell us what year was this. Five. How can remember that I because I'm a savant? Blink. Had just hit the shelves. Blink. In case you hadn't picked up on it is about the power of First Impressions, Don just read it and liked it. So anyway. One day I was out for lunch or went to the bank or something, and I'm walking back to my office. And there there you are. Walking down the street in the opposite direction of me and I knew immediately who were, but I couldn't think of your name couldn't think of your name couldn't take your name. You passed me by I turn I, opened my mouth I. Yell Out, Hey? Malcolm. But, but I didn't know your name just yelled out Hey Malcolm. Johnson, just like in the book blink and you stopped and you around and I seemed like a nice enough guy. You picked up on my energy of being excited by the book. So we were standing on the street talking for a while. And, I said Gee, I would love it. If you would autograph my book for me, and then it dawned on me, we were around the corner from my office. So. I said, you know what? WE'RE GONNA from my office and you came up to my office. Is. Didn't know my name. You didn't know who I was. I was just a nice guy in the street and you come up to my office and we're sitting there talking and that's when you notice things on my desk and you see the initial CPA. And you say to me, Oh, you're an accountant. I said, yeah, I'm an accountant and you said Gee. I'm really not that happy with the accounting some using right now. Can I hire you? And I was a little like excited and dumbfounded at the same time and I said slow down. I said I said. Who Make an appointment? We'll sit and we'll talk about. What your situation is and what kind of advice that could possibly give you and and then you'll will figure out if you want to hire me. And you said, no, no, no. I WanNa hire and I said, no, we're. GonNa. Do. This, right. We're not GONNA do this impulsively in eventually you came to my office when I gave you a consultation and you hired me so a perfect stranger short guy red hair runs up to me on Madison Avenue Malcolm. Malcolm. Five minutes later, I'm trying to hire him to handle all of my most sensitive affairs. Who Am I? You wouldn't let me. I was like, I'll hide you. You wouldn't let I wouldn't let. Yep because I wanted to have a serious conversation where I gave you a consultation and discussed what what planning ideas I had for you. I wanted to make sure that you made your decision not based on impulse. But based on some knowledge and. Trust and confidence that I knew what I was talking about, but I told you. Like my old accounts. I knowing about accounting. So how can like how can they have intelligent conversation with you about whether you should be my account if I remember. Conversation. Account. By account. Precisely and goes around and around and around whatever this is getting embarrassing. No comes the part where I tried to fend myself. In every season revisionist history, I fall in. Love with someone I interview last season. It was Tony Gobbly, the tea connoisseur who accused me of being a t bro. Meeting Tony, for reasons, I don't entirely understand made me very happy. The season before that it was casey bowls the musician from Nashville who sang a song that brings me to tears every time I hear. A Plane Gallagher. Del Rotate. Dream cheat seeing how Sunday, KABC? B. O. L. L. S.. When this is over, look her up. This season, the interview that surprised me, the most was with someone named Adam. Cried I talked about him in the episode. On Democratic, Lotteries Adam has made it his life's work to convince grade school kids to Choose Student Council governments by picking names out of a hat. Actually. Since Adam Works in Bolivia by picking father beans out of a clay. Pot. Can I ask you a question? That's Adam. After we talked, he seems slightly mystified about why I had emailed him one day out of the blue. So. How'd you find out about lottery selection like democratic lottery condoms is just interested. I've always been interested in lotteries. and. I just. was rooting around online I met across through Cuba. Doing I mean it's as simple as. Sitting in my coffee shop over there. That was the day I contacted you. I was like this is really interesting and. Still Random. Now there's a very important distinction with his whole lottery thing. It's between agnostic schism and nihilism. Agnostic, schism is about indifference. It's an elaborate gallic shrug. They're gonNA stick would say the reason to choose people randomly for positions of leadership is that basically anyone can do the job. The army in wartime has an agnostic position. Their belief is they can take almost any able bodied person and turn them into a reasonably effective soldier. But that's not Adam crock writes position. He absolutely thinks there are good leaders and bad leaders and not everyone is cut out to be student council president. He just doesn't believe that the systems we currently use her any good. So he says why bother just pull a name out of that. Now. Adam would argue that's in the interest of a fair system. But let's be clear. He's anaylyst. He does not look at the best apparatus democratic selection honed and perfected over many centuries and Shrug That's what the agnostic would do. No. He looks at those elaborate rituals and he rolls his eyes. He says, give me a break. That's my position to when it comes to hiring. I look at all the folklore and ritual around predicting how well people will perform and I say give me a break. I am an eye roller, not Schroeder, I am anaylyst. And my task in this episode of revisionist history is to convince you to be anaylyst too. I had a long chat with no recently gaps. That Noah? Don't if you realize it, but he's getting the art back together. I. Kind of don't blame him. He said to me, Malcolm, I'm having a heck of a time Filipo getting my hands on one very living creature is hard enough in the middle of a pandemic, but I need to ninety two, the skills. We're GONNA need to stay out there for the next couple thousand years. It's a logistical nightmare. You Try Finding Rhino could work read sheet. Noah. Says to me I, need a tool with powerful matching technology could helps may find the right animal for the right job? I said no one word. Ziprecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter, get a quality candidate within the first day. That's how good they're matching system has. And I'm pretty sure not one hundred percent positive that it works frenemies too. They're awfully genius over there. ziprecruiter H Q. Ziprecruiter find you the right person for the right job. Maybe even in cases with prisoner looking for is a rhino. WHO CAN LUCAS PECI see how ziprecruiter can help you hire try it now for free at Ziprecruiter Dot? com. Slash Gladwin. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash Gla. W. E. L. One more time. ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash. Glad well. The patron saint of hiring nihilism without question was the author and educator Lawrence Peter. All of us in the hiring community worship at his feet off. When I was a boy. I used to leave my parents and believe my teachers and they shove respect for your elders and betters. The men upstairs knew what they were doing. That's Peter. He was a Canadian as a my of course, and I don't know if you remember from the lottery episode. But Adam cried went to university in Canada. The nihilists strain runs deep in the land of the frozen prairie. Anyway. Lawrence, Peter was a great. Famous for saying things like the noblest of all dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it. He was also deeply involved in something called the kinetic. Sculpture. Race, in Humboldt County California, which is really hard to explain except to say that it's kind of like the triathlon of the art world involving sculptures on wheels that are required to perform certain. It's. Peter Famously proposed a special prize called the Golden Dinosaur, award to be given to the first machine to break down immediately after the start. which if you knew Lawrence Peter, you would recognize as being very Lawrence Peter because his great professional obsession was with. Patience he had a CONNOISSEUR'S I for it. And as I looked around me I saw a sign on the door said emergency exit authorized personnel only I wonder who'd written that. But then later, I, saw another sign, it said emergency exit. Not to be used under any circumstances, learns Peter formulated one of the most famous laws in social science. He called it the Peter Principle. The. Peter Principle states very simply than in any hierarchy and employees tends to rise to his level of incompetence. That's where he stays. People get promoted based on a prediction about their ability to handle the next job on the hierarchy. And they keep rising until the prediction is wrong. You see in any organization. Where competence is essentially eligibility for promotion and incompetence is a bar to promotion. Within those rules, apply people were rise to the level of incompetence and tend to stay there. Lawrence Peter wrote a book called Peter Principle in Nineteen, sixty nine and delighted exactly in A. Lawrence. Peter. Sort of way like he has a whole riff on the special case of someone who is incompetent for promoted anyway. Kicked upstairs, a movie calls progressive sublimated. Or the case, an incompetent person is moved out of the way, but given a long job title as compensation. Peter called a lateral. Ask. No chances are you've heard of the Peter? Principle, I'm guessing kind of joke ha ha. That's why my boss is so bad. But it's not a joke. Allow me to direct you to the work of a fellow member of the Hiring Nyas Club on Benson economist at the University of Minnesota. While, he was doing his doctorate at Mit, he got bitten by the Peter. Bug. It started to go to sales management conferences. And they found that there was this adage that the best salesperson doesn't necessarily make the best manager but then people would laugh and say, but we do it anyway. And I wanted to find out why the great advantage of using sales people debate the Peter Principle Benson realizes is that you can measure performance really easily. It's not like assessing the performance of engineers or politicians. No, it's super straightforward. You just look at how many sales salesperson has made, and it's also easy to measure good sales manager is you just add up sales of the salespeople, the managers managing. So, Allen Benson finds a tech company that sells one of those software platforms for sales organizations, kind of like salesforce DOT COM, and he gets access to all of their customers data four, hundred firms, hundred thousand salespeople. The first thing he finds is a confirmation of the famous eighty, twenty rule that twenty percent of the sales people are responsible for eighty percent of the sales across the board. It's not that we don't know who's a good salesperson. We definitely know some people are really good. Second thing he finds that those superstars get rewarded. What we found in the data. That top salespeople are far far more likely to be promoted into sales management than people who are outside of that top twenty percent or who aren't the best person on the team. Of course, the make sense you give the stars promotion. That's what everyone does. Okay. Now it gets interesting. One happens when those stars take over as manager. Fair sales people than salespeople who they manage their performances because worse under them than it was under their prior managers. The Stars get promoted in their terrible managers. How Terrible? Really Terrible. Benson looked at an alternate promotion scenario where companies decide to promote not the stars. But the sales people who are good at collaborating. Nice. Friendly people who work well with others and teams managed by the friendly people do thirty percent better than the teams managed by the superstars thirty percent. Huge. Now, you might say what does this have to do with nihilism? This is just an argument for promoting friendly people over superstars, that's not I rolling or even shrugging. Well I. Haven't told you about Bentsen's last finding. Because Benson found a fatal flaw in the ultimate promoting scenario. The one that seems to work thirty percent better, which is this. If you promote the friendly sales people over the top sales, people than the top sales people get upset. So upset that their performance suffers and they aren't. So top anymore. The. Whole thing is so magnificently perverse, isn't it? All, your sales come from the same small group of people who expect to be promoted as a reward for their excellence. But if you promote them out of sales, which you get returned is allows manager and if you don't promote them. And you pass them over in favor of some warm and fuzzy, interpersonal. The top performers will pout and stop trying. So, what are you supposed to do? You could pay the superstars more more and give them fancier titles in the maneuver. Lawrence Peter called the lateral arabesque. But you've still insulted them by passing them over for the friendly Wuss. Another idea that some Peter principle theorists have floated his lotteries. They end up where Adam cronkite ended up put everyone's name in a hat and promote the winner I. Mean Why not? But then why have a boss at all? No concept of boss. Is it a boss? Knows more than the people that bossing? There's even a school of thought in the upper reaches of Peter Principle world at the best solution is just to man up forget everything else and deliberately promote the incompetent because this way, you won't lose one of your superstars by turning them into a lousy manager. You'll just transfer an incompetent person from their present position of incompetence to another position of incompetence upstairs somewhere where they will occupy a position which according to Peter. principle. was bound to be occupied by an incompetent person sooner or later anyway. Did, you follow that. Peter principle theorizing gets very meta very quickly. Which is why most people would rather console themselves with the soothing banalities of it and prediction and hierarchy. Only a select few. Willing to face the truth. And? Brave and lonely heretics. The Nihilists? People like me. Who Look at the world with a cold and unflinching eye and say. 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Things went well with my first. Higher Stacey. But eventually stacey needed to move on, and so I had to go through the whole process all over again. With Sarah. Basically. We didn't talk about anything professional a tool as I recall it. It was. A. Little Bit about family and. that. I was half. American. That I could. You know that I knew the fifty states of America in? alphabetical order. That's Sarah Remembering my second ever job interview. And you me. A yiddish what I taught you a Yiddish words, will you wanted to know if I knew? About the a wet, maybe you had just had just landed identity. No, but it's the lead that is the kind of. The Opposite Direction flow of Nakas. So as being the joy of your children, give you and this word being, Lucas. Yeah. The one that you give them. Yes. Yes. I just given by giving a speech to like some Jewish Organization in Boston. And of course, I'm not Jewish. So I was filled with anxiety and. I said, well, I have to impress them early on and so I began my speech by. Something about the distinction between Yuccas Sinatra's. Right. Yeah. So, there was schooling you. Jewish person. About Which? I hired Sarah by. The. Same afternoon we met she was another recent college graduate. I, didn't really bring up the job description during the interview because by that point, I wasn't really sure what my current assistant was up to I. Mean, how would I know her job was to do things so that I didn't have to do them. So if I knew what she was doing, she wouldn't be doing her job. So. Stacey briefed Sarah about practical things and much more apparently because now I remember. The, two pieces of advice that she kind of impressed upon me like tablets were. respect his privacy, and be nice to his parents. As it turned out, Sarah was exceedingly nice to my parents. My father thought you just with the bee's knees. He was like. You're his, you are absolutely his favorite. I think I told you that strange and wonderful dinner that I had just with the two of. With the amendment died of what happened, what happened? Just. A It was when it was I know New York. Festival, in you're flying off and I just went to see if they needed anything and I went to see it there. Okay. And they asked if I wanted to join the PADINHA. And no one had told me what you're supposed to do in a moment night by like. Are you supposed to go for dinner with your buses parents? You absolutely not supposed to fit in with your parents. So I did and they were just they were so kind to me Malcolm and just very Woman interesting. That was the that was the time I. Think I wrote you about it was when faced the way trust? If we wanted pepper. Soup and I said Yes 'cause I thought that's what you're supposed to say in your dad said I. Don't know I haven't tried it yet. And it was just. It just it was like it was brilliant to me that you could just. I. Guess he was like he was being a mathematician resigned about his soup. But? It was such a nice. Oh. I. Miss My father so much. The soup agnostic says, go ahead, put pepper in. It's not going to make much difference either way the Soup Nile says pepper can make a great deal of difference, but it is impossible for me to find out whether the waiter is offering me pepper because the super leaves the kitchen deliberately under peppered or because the restaurant offers pepper as an amenity regardless of the peppery -ness of its offerings, Sarah took the Nile is position as would i. of course, I, always get the pepper, but grand. Glad well was not a soup nihilist. He was a soup in purist he tried to soup then considered the pepper. But. On all other matters, he took the same approach as I do. What do you think I get it from. Whence Snowy Day, when we were going to visit friends, my father took an off ramp to fast, skidded down the embankment and landed on the on ramp facing the wrong direction whereupon. He drove off the on ramp onto a road that none of us had ever seen before. And then he announced Oh this is the way I wanted to go along. Did he mean that? Yes he did. He believed that if you're on a road for whatever reason, then that's the road you should take. If an accountant appears before you hire the Accountant If. Stacy. Seems Nice Higher Stacey, that is the way. Glad. Wells think. This is in fact, the subject of my eulogy from my father and his funeral a few years ago, which was one of those funerals that wasn't exactly funereal in a sense that there was so much Graham global in the air that about halfway through, we all forgot we was supposed to be grieving. For my part, I got up and spoke about all the ways in which my father have objected to his own funeral. This has been a meticulously planned service so far. My father did not believe in planning anything. If you reason anything in my life, my father's life was planned with because in spectacularly fortunate failure. Due Diligence. He married my mother. Talked about one of my Heroes Albert O. Hirschman. Who is the true godfather of my kind of nihilism even more norris? Peter. Hirschmann was an economist and one of the towering intellectuals of the twentieth century. He helps save the lives of countless Jews in the second. World. War. Later, he traveled to exotic lands. He was a man of action as well as words. Guiding principle was always that hamlet was wrong and by that he meant that Hamlet was someone whose dads made him incapable of acting, right? Frozen to be or not to be. That's the question. But. Hirschman point was that hamlet had it backwards that your doubts should free you because once you've accepted that you don't know what happens next that, you can't predict or plan everything in your life then you free to act. Because, what's you back? What is to be afraid of if you've given up on the illusion of knowing what could possibly happen? I love Hirschman because he reminds me of my father. I think my father thought. That was wrong. He believed in. God. Even though no mathematical proof exists of God's existence data did not compromise his faith. It was. What gave him freedom to believe? He, married my mother even though the world told him. Not to do that. He went on walks without knowing where he would end up. He never looked at a map. You would just say I'm GONNA. Follow my nose. He built a greenhouse even though he didn't know anything about carpentry. I remember once looking at the windows a child. And I saw the cat cat streaking at top speed with his ears back. And following the cat, our dog at top speed with us back the terror in his eyes and then pappy sprinting. Top speed safety, the house, and I thought what on earth? And then I saw this huge swarm of angry bees. Happy felt the to be a beekeeper. Even, though we didn't really understand how these. I like to think that I learned from the best. Hamlet. Never kept bees hamlet. Never had any fresh honey. I'll. If my father thought a speaker had gone on too long, which is up in leave. He would actually be taking a walk this point. My hiring nihilism failed. Just what's it was with the assistant who came after Jane Jane Sarah's roommate who my heart because I like Sarah and I thought under the transit of property that if Sarah was great, surely that meant that Jane would be great too because what are the odds Sarah have good taste in roommates and sure enough Jane was Great. Jane turned out to be the kind of person who had planned the d day invasion, and then check in with Churchill and Roosevelt at five on a Friday and say, do you need anything more from me before the weekend? Anyway, Jane wanted to move on and I hired. I'm GONNA call her. Susan. Susan seemed Super Nice, but she was not a good assistant. In a span of just a few weeks, she made one error after another, some trivial, some major. then. Just as I was about to go out on a book tour, she announced she was taking another job leaving me in the lurch. I reprimanded her. She knew it wasn't working out. She was upset and apologized. I had forgotten about the whole incident until in the course of my forensic analysis of my hiring history, one of my old assistance reminded me. So I searched back to my old emails and found this an email from me to. Susan. Dear. Susan. Please don't beat yourself up Some people are good at this kind of work. Some people are not. It has no larger significance. It's like how high you can jump or whether you are good at bowling. You are probably best for more scholarly pursuits in the end, which is not a bad thing. I was probably exactly the same way, your age. I, kind of can't believe I wrote that email. It sounds so sweet and understanding, but I'm not sweet and understanding. Am I. Know Not really what I am is a hiring nihilist and the appearance of graciousness is simply one of the wonderful side effects of hiring nihilism. Because if you believe that nothing in someone's performance in one job predicts their future performance in another job. If you believe that the whole prediction system when it comes to people is just an extravagant. In self delusion. Then you're free to say, Susan. It's okay. The fact that you didn't work out as my assistant has no larger significance. Because, it doesn't life's too short. You need an accountant, you meet an account are the accountant you meet Stacey, and you cancel all your other interviews because you realize, what's the point? The nihilists believes that people are mysterious and unpredictable that life is a big crap shoot, and at most of the systems put in place, are there just to satisfy our allusion? The we can see into the future. Might email went on. I'm sorry. I. Was as harsh as I was with you. It's just that this is a rather stressful time and I have a million things going on. But Jacob I believe is just the kind of anal obsessive detail oriented sort who will serve me well smiley face. So all's well that ends well, good luck with your next job. I wish you all the best am. Up. Wait Jacob. Yes Jacob. Smith. Susan's successor. Yeah. That's right. Do you remember where the enemy was? It was at your place and I remember that. You Know Me. I. Don't really like dress up dress up, but I dressed up as much as I do, and I specifically remember that you were like you weren't wearing shoes and I think I had to take off my shoes. Do you member what we what we talked. What would I ask you about? The obviously, the thing that always stuck with me, as you asked if I could try stickshift. said. Yes. That was the big one. I remember you asked what my parents did, which I thought was a good question. I loved the fact that your parents teachers, those two Answers Zealand farming. Do. You remember how long this was I. Remember it was at like one and being out of there, and it was like one twenty and I was like well that either one really well, or really poorly could salvage the fastest job interview or had, and that's with like five to. Seven minutes of just probably small talk and kind of getting settled in yet. Three things dear to you. You drive your parents teachers and then you said something said, but then I'm so anal that I would do something I was like wait. He's self admitting to be fantastic. It's exactly what I want I so. Funny in retrospect, I don't actually think I'm that Anal I. Think I was playing that up I. Think. But actually, but didn't see my defend myself. I'm interested in someone who understands that they need to represent themselves as anal as I am someone who is truly right? Right? Yeah. You wouldn't actually want me to be. Yeah. And how did Jacob Workout. Well for once in your life. Listen to the credits. Revisions history is produced by. Jacob, Smith, and meal abell leaving STU elouise and ANA. Naim. Our editor is Julia born flawn. Williams is our engineer fact checking by Best Johnson original music by Louis. GARRA special. Thanks to Carly headed Fain Eric, Sandler Maggie Taylor and L. Hefei. Jacob Weisberg. Vicious history is brought to you by push could industries. And your resident nihilist. Malcolm Gordon.