6 Episode results for "Lyme syndrome"
How To Recover From Chronic Lyme And Tick Diseases with Dr. Todd LePine
"Coming up on this episode of the Doctors Pharmacy will symptoms. Do not appear overnight. It's it's a slow process so it's not like always on one day you know you're gonNa feel welcome the Doctors Pharmacy. I'm Dr Mark Hyman and that's pharmacy F. A. Place for conversations. A matter of you or someone you know is suffering from chronic infection with a tick borne disease lyme disease but are Nella which is a big mouthful otherwise known as chronic lyme. Then you should listen carefully this conversation because it's one of the most important conversations. It doesn't had traditional medicine and I'm here with my colleague friend and partner at the Ultra Wellness Center. Dr Todd. The pene brilliant doctor went to Dartmouth Medical School is board certified internal medicine. He's someone who's found functional medicine even before I did backing the nearly ninety s we go way back at work together at Canyon ranch. He teaches around. The world is leading thought leader in the field of functional medicine. And he just an all around great guy and we are GonNa talk about lyme disease which we both have had by the way and are both doing pretty good. Yeah so that's the punchline. There is a way out. It's not through the traditional doorway of six weeks or three weeks of antibiotics and that's it and otherwise you're just complaining. Malinga over right which is what are typical approaches and Lime Disease. So welcomes the podcast. Thanks mark thanks for having me okay. So we both live in the country here. In fact I had when chronic the other day I was planning my garden was like a working my God housing like he attached you add but little coming off yeah so let's just talk about the elephant room. Is there something called chronic lyme disease and why does traditional medicine? Not Think there is an think. Everybody's just wind complainer. Was psychological issues. I think it's the concept of what is a disease really you know inject lands book the Disease Delusion how we look at Z's and most doctors are trained to think that when you have an infection you have a fever. You're sick you've got. You GotTa take an antibiotic Lower Fever. And then it's done and chronic. Lyme disease is a stealth infection. And it's you mentioned before it's really not lime disease. It's tick borne illness illness. And so you have to think not only could possibly be Borelli door fry but other species of the bacteria caused line in other co-infections launching bar BBC. Oh so Bartonella and the others. So you've got to really sort of think about what is it that may be driving this these chronic type symptoms and I have seen patients walk through my door with a fifteen year. History of quote unquote FIBROMYALGIA. Which is not a diagnosis. Like a call chronic fatigue. Chronic fatigue is a symptom not a Zach unexplained auto immune issues Parkinson's Alzheimer's multiple sclerosis so just like simplest which is also aspira keitel illness. Lyme disease is the Great Mimic Mimika. And Wow you if you know that. The history of medicine way back when when Syphilis was very prevalent it could mimic anything and everything in line is the same thing. That's a that's an incredible insight that people think you know lime disease you get the bull's eye rash maybe get arthritis lyme arthritis for lime heart disease. You know it's acute illness you know. Get neurologic lime. It's a thing you know. Said they'd give people IV antibiotics but there's very little appreciation that if someone comes with Parkinson's disease or ms that you should be thinking about a tick infection. It's not even on the radar now. Most doctors exactly in functional medicine. We do think differently. And if you actually go back into the history of understanding syphilis there used to be primary syphilis which is acute infection and then you would have secondary and tertiary civilization would appear years down the road as dementia and tables door. Saleh's and problems with balance and all kinds of things so you've got to have a broad a broad understanding of how these things affect the body and then the immune system maybe it's not chronic and acute maybe it's primary and secondary line. Exactly that's right. He's about how you WanNa word it exactly so you. What is a typical approach? Thinking about lyme disease and how traditional knockers diagnose it and treat it and what. What is the the general perspective the general perspective and I think this is the CDC criteria is basically? You go to your doctor and you get a what's called a two tiered testing. I was the Elisa screen test in the license. Just a screening on the anybody antibody enzyme linked immuno absorb an antibody. And if that's posit- then you're then re reflexively go to a Western blot test which is supposed to be more sensitive and and also it's more expensive and this standard of how you diagnose lime disease is this two tiered approach and the unfortunate thing is if that's negative which fifty percent of the time it is. You're going to be missing lime disease a lot of your patients so you might as well flip a coin so. I almost don't even do that if it's positive and you have a clinical history then it's helpful but fifty percent of the time it's not gonna be helpful the most acute disease. I mean I remember working in the. Tuck in the Er and I remember seeing so many patients with lyme disease but they had acute the a fever the joint pain they had. Arash you give me any botox three weeks or fine and the you. There's a lot of people will get lines you can get treated. And they're fine or get on an issue and I think that there's a subset of patients that are uniquely susceptible to adverse consequences of these tick infections are more resilient to absolutely and you bring up a really good point. In fact I just had a paper about people who have Manas binding Leptin deficiency. That's right so I'm actually a relatively new to me and there's a condition which is mantles binding Leptin deficiency which you can draw on routine lab test and people who have. This are more susceptible to developing infections. Urinary Tract Infections and upper respiratory infections and low behold chronic lyme disease so now. I'm starting to actually check for this. In my patients other pays. You'll absolutely yes absolutely the other thing. That is also. I don't Nice exactly sure the mechanism point but patients who have hypermobility source of a form of Ehlers Dan Law Syndrome and for whatever reason. Those patients tend to have a little bit more a more difficult to radically and that may be related to the fact. That lime is predisposed towards going towards connected. Tissue and connective tissue disease or a mild form of it was a typical alike approach traditional medicine they just give them through extending -biotics and you're done. I mean the traditional approach is anywhere between one week to a month of antibiotics. And then you're done in. It's the end of discussion. I can't tell you the number of times that I've gone to still sick afterwards. The doctor goes well. Can't be lime exit. They've call that post lyme syndrome. There's a there's a whole diagnosis called post lyme syndrome where you're testing may be negative. You still have symptoms. Despite the standard of Care Treatment and you fall into this nebulous category Is it a ongoing? Immune reaction is it the the body still trying to fight the infection. And you're not seeing it on the lab testing etc. Yeah and so. What does the approach to post lyme syndrome and traditional medicine There is none. There is not. It's the there really is no treatment. I mean that's sort of where you know patients fatigue. They make it provincial. Having problems sleeping they're gonNA throw ambient them if they're depressed. They'll get some PROZAC. Holly Pharmacy Poly Poly Pharmacy. And that's atherogenic imperfect one of my favorite terms so most of the time. What does that mean taught? Basically I after Genyk is the doctor. Does it so by right so a lot of times mark you and I've seen patients come into US and the problem? Is the doctors between them so number. One stay from doctors. True some of them. Some of them are exactly. Yeah so it's really a a very Problematic issue and I would say if there was one condition that I could erase from the planet. Yeah it would be tick borne. Illnesses is one of the biggest scourges on humanity ever absolutely causes so much suffering. Needless it's so under diagnosed. It's not a well appreciated by traditional medicine now and it's really real and does masquerade as all these other problems so you mentioned a few of them but it can cause. All sorts of autoimmune diseases can cause all sorts of gut issues can cause all sorts of neurologic issues and mood issues. It can cause like you said neurodegenerative diseases it can cause chronic fatigue syndrome fibromyalgia depression dementia. A guy come in with Cap Grass Syndrome. Was He kind of mistake? Your everybody for somebody else. You know your wife is and you hear like Neuro Lime nearline about three other code infections and we treat him with anybody and he got better patient all these. Ms Symptoms and she saw the best doctors that Cleveland Clinic and mess and she ended up having Erhlichia which is a tick. One of those tick-borne actions I gave doxycycline for six weeks and like all went away and I don't love anybody sometimes. You have to use them and you have to use them. I think I think having an open mind to those patients who are just not getting better. There's whole subclass of them. Who really struggle with these chronic issues? That are undiagnosed that nobody can figure out. And there's a lot of approaches to this so we do different kinds of diagnostics. Here and functional. Medicine has a very different approach. What how would you define the approach for functional medicine? The approach proposal messes actually. Listen to the patient I think the best thing you can do is take the time. And you can't do this five or ten minutes as you as you. Well know mark you have to really be astute to listen really well and yes the clinical experience where you've seen a lot of patients and you can sort of put the pieces of the puzzle together because this is like this is not a you know a fifteen piece jigsaw puzzle this a thousand piece. Jigsaw plus yeah often ran and it you know you're not gonNA you're not GonNa do a thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. Five minutes takes takes awhile can do happen. Yeah right so so. You've got to really listen well. And then a lot of the the confer. Confirmation of the line is in my opinion done by advanced testing like the tests that I really like. We use here is the Eli spot testing. Which basically is checking for the immune system's response to the bacteria causing an antibody tests which is traditional medicine. Right exactly so so. An antibody test is say for example you get a polio vaccination. You'RE GONNA develop polio antibodies. Okay if I test you right now for polio. Antibodies you have polio antibodies. Does that mean that you have polio? The disease no okay in chronic lyme. Some patients don't develop antibodies on those antibodies. Lexical way over time so. The antibody test is negative especially in chronic lyme and if somebody has had the disease and the antibodies are positive. Does that still mean they still have the disease or the disease away? So you're sort of up in the air you're in this nebulous area. And that's why I think combining The clinical history with some of the more advanced testing. Like the Eli spot test where you actually take the person's blood. Expose it to the antigens the proteins that the tick has or the other co-infections that are there and see the the live cells immune response to it. So this is based upon memory t cells in the production of compounds like Interferon. Gamma is your nate. Immune system urinate immune system. Your your primary. There's like two kinds of your in Cincinnati. There's one that's like the old ancient. Immune system reacts to everything in sort of like carpet bombing. And that's why maybe the symptoms with so bad with this and then there's the antibody which is more like the smart missile or call the active immunity that actually target specific bugs. So it's a memory cells so that you get a memory seldom measles when the measles vaccine so you don't get measles this is. This is just more of a widespread immune response and you can't measure tests. That's why this ally spot is so unusual helps us to determine what's going on and the other test which I also use it again. It's not really this test but diagnostic of line but the CD fifty seven. Which is the natural killer cell and we measure the overall level of the natural killer cells in patients. There are many conditions that can cause low natural killer cell function so things like Chronic Epstein Barr virus may do it HIV virus cancer etc. But lime is also one of those so if a patient comes in with symptoms consistent with chronic liar and they have a low CD fifty seven count that ups the threshold for their probability of having chronic lyme clinically and then we also do the natural killer cell function test which is not only the level of the natural killer cells but are these cells actually able to do their thing. Are they kill pathogens as a really important? I think I have a theory after seeing so many hundreds and hundreds of these patients is that lime in these chronic infections are kind of like AIDS in a way they suppress the immune system absolutely and they're sort of sort of hijack it and it makes your body unable to fight it so what I've and find out if you see this time but so many of these patients don't just have chronic line but they haven't all host of other things that destabilizer system and maybe things at the body could handle when they're normally everything else okay. There's heavy metals gut issues. There may be mold issues maybe nutritional factors so they're all these things that are complex web of causative factors that don't get with traditional medicine and sometimes you need to treat all these things to get people back to normal absolutely and you bring up a really good thing so that patients who have chronic is anybody who's out there in if they have the diagnosis of mass cell activation syndrome if they have the diagnosis of pots partial orthotic technic cards syndrome. Where when you get up your your heart rate goes up high if you have other symptoms like disorder no mea which is part of a pots. If you have a these types of things go along with someone who's got chronic. Lyme they sort of go together the other one which we see a lot of is also small bacterial overgrowth. I actually went to a talk given by a gastroenterologist and all of a sudden he was seeing all these patients with CBO okay. When you and I went training. I never used to see sleep. I mean he has somebody with euro but CBO's now rampant and interestingly is exactly interestingly in in Patients have chronic lyme disease because lime bacteria is neurotrophic in other words it heads towards nervous tissue effects nervous tissue also connective tissue that you get what is termed palsy of the gut with Bell's Palsy. When your face gets parallels one of the symptoms of acute lyme you'll get a paralysis facial limp when I one of my first cases of severe case of lyme disease. When I had a private practice was a patient who admitted to the hospital. With Acute Bell's Palsy. Those costs from lyme disease and term Bell's Palsy of the gut so any patients who are out there anybody who has refractory bad small tinsel bacterial overgrowth think of line because this this gastroenterologist got on his radar so he's checking all of his patients for lime and Lo and behold they had yeah. I had a patient who had different since syndrome. But she had severe constipation. She could only go with Kalanick's and heavy duty medication and turn out shed which is another tick infection and that is known to cause a on a nominee dysfunction of a gutter paralysis of the Gut essentially which is what she was suffering from. Loss fascinating right so we we see all these variable presentations and we do have a question here. We use called the question here which has multiple immune deficiency whatever questionnaire symptom questionnaire and it helps us to make track of all these beard very weird citizen. People have got tingling. I get palpitation. That my headaches Anki this and that and you get this whole has symptoms. People have a high score. It's likely that they have some issue. Now it may not be one hundred percent but your your odds are higher and often people won't remember having a tick by were member having a bull's eye rash. They won't remember an acute infection. And you can live in Hawaiian heaven. Yeah everywhere I live in Arizona exactly everywhere with global and just just like with the Cobra virus we see that the vector for the spread of the code viruses. The airplane. It's not it's not a mosquito. It's an airplane right. And how many of us travel and fly planes? We go all over the place. It's also a theory of exactly so also. There's a theory that that lie may also be sexually transmitted and I've had some privy to some people have done some small studies on checking for the DNA of lime in in sperm and it's been identified so just like syphilis was actually sexually transmitted there are. I think there in some cases lie may actually be sexually transmitted so there can be transmission from the mother to the to the baby all maternal fetal transmission. So you really have to think about it and just because somebody doesn't live in an area like the northeast America. Lyme Connecticut was where it all started in the interesting thing about that. Is that the clinician. Who said all of a sudden? I've got all these kids with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis which is a rare condition. Never see that. And he had a whole clustering of it then he said well. Why is this happening? We just label it as juvenile rheumatoid arthritis immune disease but it's also infectious and most most autoimmune diseases. I think probably have some type of infectious storage because of microbes for example in your gut yet so leaky gut and all that. Yeah Hey everyone doctor. I'm in here now. I know we're all focused on being healthiest possible during this unprecedented time and that means drinking clean water. Eating loads of anti inflammatory foods also means keeping our homes clean. Now I've been doing my best to keep my family safe while indoors and for me. This means using an air filter. Now we know. 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You had with lime disease and what you did to figure it out or chronic chronic and I when people say chronic Lyme. I think that the term really refers to chronic lyme and co-infection Contacts. You had chronic. Yeah crying people have multiple. I've had people have all four. Yeah Yeah it's it's. The text can carry multiple bugs. Yes exactly yeah I think the ones that you probably see the most or at least in my experience I've seen the most are lime with Barnala and those are probably the bigger co-infections bar as one is is. I think you've probably experienced this. That can cause neuropsychiatric illnesses so we had a patient in clinic. Won't center at the Center. Exactly who was admitted to a psych hospital four psychosis and had a lime co-infections as a trigger for that Just like syphilis can cause madness. We'll narrow satirist exactly. It's not it's not on the radar of neurologist is not on the radar of psychiatrist. Everybody's in their silos. And that's what's so different about functional. Medicine is that. We look at the whole picture. We look at. We're we're I joke that You know we're holistic. Doctors could take people the whole this the problems and I think that that is what's unique about functional medicine about the centers that we don't just take things at face value. We dig deep into figuring out the why and why people are suffering so someone comes in with us. We're not thinking Oh you have. Ms We're thinking you have inflamed nerves. Why are they inflamed? Yeah and then what are the causes it could be it could be a nutritional deficiency could be gut issue could be ticked faction clean multiple things? So I say if you just you know the name of your disease. You don't really know what's wrong with you know the diagnosis but not the cost. Exactly you hit the nail on the head. You called Labor. Treat mistreat them. That's really what would happen. And naming naming blame it payment game exactly good old said and so that that approach where you somebody comes in and you've got five or ten minutes and then you just want to treat the symptoms whether it's hangs -iety constipation here take your Alexia later without thinking what's causing it and I think that I always go in to every patient with Zen mind and like I have no preconceived bias. I think we all have some type of cognitive bias. Because you know I sort of seen that before that kind of thing I it humbles me because every time I see patients always learning yeah. I'm pretty much as much as I know the more I know the more that I know. I don't know it's so true. I like more and more interest more practice more humble and keep learning about things and learn from my patients because they're the biggest teachers and we call it practice because you're practicing writing. That's that's some of these cases that you've had yeah. I had one case recently. It was a young girl in her late twenties and she came to see me and she had she was very organized and she was also a chronically ill and what was the last time you felt well and she goes. I can't remember and she had a whole laundry list of symptoms. She had brain fog. She had fatigue insomnia she had sort of acne type symptoms. She had a a lot of bloating. She was having a joint pains and she had seen multiple specialists. She saw saw integrative specialists and she was just at a standstill and she came with a very organized thick binder. It must have been five inches. That call that charter. Mainly charmingly exactly chart and actually because she was so organized. It really made my job easier. And I was able to take the time to speak to her in review all the records and I saw that in her in her chart that she had testing way back when for line but it was sorta like equivocal. And it wasn't really addressed was renowned -opoly and I said I put this on the back burner. Let's check your CD fifty seven. Let's see what it is and so I did. I did stir standard approaches tour initially and empirically and she also had limited resources in terms of spending money but the one thing that flag that was her December count was low and as I said that's not diagnostic length. But it makes me suspicious. Immune system is not functioning properly. I was like oh I'm going to check edges to see country and that was a little tired and I thought it was working to art and it was like thirty which normal's like one hundred and twenty. Yeah and then I was like then. He followed up with a test positive and a positive. I serve ignored it for like six months or whatever. I'll just came back. I wonder what happened to the test and it was like. Oh shoot lime disease yeah right. Pcr tests which is. We didn't talk about which test you can do to. Actually look at the live chain reaction. Yeah what they're using for cove in nineteen which tells you the environment is. It's its positive you got it exactly. Yeah exactly it's pretty. It's pretty diagnostic mom and so anyway so. That is the testing that I ended up doing on her was the The T. Cell Memory test the Eli spot test. And that came back positive dramatically. She had the. There are a couple of the antigens and her's were like beyond the measuring point so she was having ongoing the van you know got greater than is they couldn't they couldn't measure it and it was just a relief for her to realize that this is not in my head because she was starting to be treated like someone who had lingering central. I mean she was. She was struggling to get an answer for Oliver Myriad symptoms. Doctors just could not put the piece of the puzzle. I always say you know if you have a bunch of problem that symptoms and you go to the doctor and the doctor's like well your laptops or find. I can't find anything wrong. It means one of two things. Either you're crazy or the doctors missing something and it's nine times out of ten. Maybe you know ninety nine times out of ten out of one hundred. The doctors missing something. Because we're not trained how to think this way like we do in functional medicine which is what we do here. Toronto Center in Lenox. And we're not trained navigate to the cause so we just like. Oh you've got this diagnosis. We know what drug to give you. But we don't really know how to think differently about this disease from the root cause perspective and how to restore health and that's what we do and you sort of saw the clues the smoking gun which is a CD seven. You dug deeper. And then what did you do for? Well I actually put her on a course of doxycycline. Antibiotics actually combine that with silver. I don't know if you've used that but yeah if you actually silver turbo charges the effects of antibiotics some doctors actually give it intravenously. But I've had fairly good success orally yup yeah so I combined income are gentlemen. Twenty-three the silver salt not the COLLOIDAL silver but the The the nanoparticle silver like our agenda twenty-three or I used to silver cylinder in her particular case I they're they're pretty much identical and she had a very good response with that and then I also added in some Artemis which they use for malaria. Yeah it's an herb herbs. Exactly it's an herb exactly. And in fact they actually won the Nobel Prize for that a couple of years ago and that helps with the other forms because the tricky thing about lime is lime can take the the regular bacterial Sparky SPARKY TO FORM Cell Wall deficient forum and also the round body for which is the more chronic and persistent forms. Right exactly. Yeah and they. The the organisms can go into the stealth mode where the for a while they were sitting and they don't want to get caught. They don't WanNa get caught exactly by your immune system exactly and Lynn Lynn Margulis. Who was the wife of Carl? Sagan wrote an excellent article about Lyman. Round bodies yeah really even read that data. She was incredible. She the whole economy in somebody else's. Yeah and she she she was her. She was a prototype. She actually studied these. These very ancient bacteria and had a real good insight into into these organisms. Because you know it's just like the covert virus cold virus does not kill does not kill people by itself knows the system's response right so it's how our our intelligent if you will our immune systems a responses and there's a lot of people who get bit by a tick in their otherwise healthy they're exercising and they it doesn't bother them at all. Yeah there were sort of probably why I didn't feel so bad right. I think because I eight well. Exercise tried take care myself and I was sort of in a you know an equilibrium. I didn't feel awesome but I thought. Oh this is just. I'm working too hard traveling too much. Not Sleeping Great. I sort of dismissed it right but I was like. Oh Wow you know real. A lot of our patients are struggling because they have other issues too well and not only that but the symptoms do not appear overnight. It's a slow process so it's not like always on one day you know you're gonNA feel bad as you make it bitten. Your system deals with it. And it's it's sort of sitting in stealth mode for years or months and then all of a sudden your immune system is compromised. Because you're not getting enough sleep your burn the candle at both ends and then all of a sudden it can come out will and reactivate. So what happened. Is You agree. Antibiotics Artemisia gave and then I put her on. I followed my my typical approach. And there's a great paper enough. You saw about the use of botanical. So these are herbs which are oftentimes used to just like antibiotics. Now there are. Some doctors will use antibiotics for months or even years. And I've actually seen some of these patients and I think if you're really sick perhaps giving intravenous. Antibiotics can be helpful to sort of cut down on the number of the organisms into deal with acutely but at the same time a lot of antibiotics affect the gut. Microbiome the effect Cadre Andrea so. It's a double edged sword. I mean I. We used to work at a place called. Kanye ranch as a health resort and I I called resort doctors your doctors of last resort. So we haven't see two patients who see everybody else come here after they've done all these other things including two years of antibiotics and just a mess exactly and we have to fix up. Yeah exactly yeah and So there was a paper that just recently came out looking at the use of botanical 's in patients with with lime disease yeah and then non growing forms of lyme disease around body forms and they found a variety of different herbs of the top ones. Were Japanese knotweed. Yeah which is like a actually has re spiritual in it which turns out is a very healthy aging compound and then the the other top one was crippled. Lepas and then the other one was cat's claw and these are actually found in various formulations out there. There's various treatments out there. You might be aware of those. The COWDEN PROTOCOL. Yeah. There's Brunner Protocol backup blow by Traditional Medicine. Three weeks any box. You're done Then there's the sort of group that uses like long term two years of antibiotics which is a little out of the box. And then there's the whole herbal protocols which you're going to get into now so so what are the kinds of categories verbal protocols? You mentioned cow. Dan. What other kinds of things? There's a there's a there's a counter protocol and then there's the Brunner Protocol With an herbalist and he has his herbal tinctures. There's a Byron White Protocols and then there's Dr Zang Protocol and I would say is that. I don't think the Chinese doc Chinese herbs yeah Chinese herbs garlic lot of guards garlic garlic is phenomenal. Keep Away Vampires in line and by biofilms in biofilm. Garlic is very powerful in biofilms. And that's a great. It's a great thing I- garlic almost every day. I really don't yeah I did too. But this is like a whole next level. You know. You're you're basically taking suber concentrated garlic pills and you live with someone. Or you have your. You'll know it they're gonNA complain time for the moment. I would say you could use perfume. Maybe that's it right. And I think the sparky either they roll out of you. What was that Zulehner movie? Where he had the new scented Cologne garlic kind of like what early? So so what happened is young lady so she is in the process of recovery. She's not one hundred percent but she's Dramatically feeling better and there is some thought also that when people have chronic lyme disease that you never one hundred percent. Get rid of it what you do. I think you get the levels of the line in the bodies down and then you also improve immune system. Which is we always do a lot of immune support things like medicinal mushrooms which can have been shown to increase natural killer cell function exposure to Sauna. In for infrared. Light therapy has also been helpful. Just also getting out into the Sunshine Vitamin D. I oftentimes will check vitamin D in these patients and their oftentimes low and one of the things I tell my patients is that there is such a thing as healthy sunshine and sunshine exposure does but somewhat on your face and the rest of your body. You can be naked. It's exactly yeah. And and there's really very very healthy benefits for email modulation with sunshine exposure not just vitamin D but sunshine exposure with ultraviolet irradiation absolutely light purple. Yeah so she. She got better she is. I have absolutely is on her way to recover. She's relatively recent so she's one of many patients that I've seen and in her case hers was really interesting because she had this whole combination of pots. She had hypermobility so she had this sort of Ehlers Damn House Type Syndrome which is often associated with a people tend to get chronically high. She had bloating which is a form of bacterial overgrowth so she had a lot of these types of fix everything else with these patients. We don't just treat the we treat their whole systems. And whatever else is going on heavy metals gut issues nutritional deficiencies model. Problems will sort those out and that'll help them become more resilient. Yeah which is the goal resilience absolutely so todd you. You think that it's positive rid of why I think if you get an acute infection and you catch early enough yes. Are we able to get rid of a bacteria? Our bodies are I call Kai miric organisms. We carry around of bacteria inside of US along with various viruses. So we're always we're always exposed to these organisms. So it's our immune. Daryl you mean sterile. Exactly we're not sterile. Let's say we have the skin microbiome. We have the oral microbiome more than that. We have all these other infections could have Siham cytomegalovirus. Nfc borrow and we can have new. Mississippi's Cronyn you know. Bacteria we can have all sorts of low-grade TB and all these things that are hiding in us. Yeah that are just certifying. We don't bother us. Examiner immune system gets nuked by. Let's say aides or lime which I think is the new AIDS. Yeah it actually creates havoc where we can't cope with anymore and that's when things start to break down. Yeah absolutely I mean. We do live in symbiosis. We have bacteria in her mouth. We have in our gut and along with viruses and when our immune system is image tolerant in other words it tolerates these these organisms. And they're not in the in the The wrong compartment if you will and that's actually one the other things that goes into the interstitial department into into the connective tissues and the immune system is not there hides out exactly highs out. That's there yeah exactly and I think that's why those people who have hypermobility tend to have it more because for whatever reason they're connective tissues is is not normal and perhaps immune system. You can't get in there as well this whole question of can you get rid of. It is an open question. I tend to agree with you. It's really about learning how to create Amina Resiliency and put it down often. Cd's ally spot tests come back negative. Once they get. They're not really reacting to it anymore. Maybe it's gone. We don't really know numbers. Yeah but I remember this patient. I talked to this week who had Parkinson's disease and he also had multiple tick infections and lyme disease and the neurologist was like didn't pick it up to notice and we've been treating him for years and he he he was successfully treated for and I'll get into that minute but his neurologists like I've ever seen a patient with Parker. The WHO's doing this great. You're not getting worse or stable. You're regressed in your symptoms. It's incredible and with him. You know he was tough and you got these patients with these tough diseases like dementia or ask you kind of need more aggressive. Approach someone who has brain fog little achey tired insomnia as one patient? Young people with more really serious conditions need need more aggressive therapy. And I don't know if you've experienced but I I over the years I've sort of you know really open to was happening in the space and trying to understand the kinds of therapies. That actually are regenerative. That actually activate the body's capacity to to activates immune system and to heal than trying to clobber it with a drug or even an herb herbs can be great. I use herbs and like they work for a lot of patients. But I feel like there's another class of therapy. Emerging I think is where the money is for these chronic problems. That are just resistant now. All the functional medicine. We'll get people better just using the basics. Lifestyle the basic but there's a group that just doesn't get better and this group and people have been sick for decades or struggling and sort of export a whole bunch of different things and what I'm finding is. There's a lot of therapies out. There that are off the grid in the three that are the most for the most seeming prominent and potentially effective are stem cells and excess homes. Which are sort of? It seemed to help. The body had a bunch of patients who've gone and done that not by American nation. But I you know as a functional medicine doctor or Docu really listen to your patient so when they come telling me this work that work does. I pay attention. Especially there's nothing else has worked as they're like. What did you do? Tell me about it. You'RE GONNA learn as opposed to most actually well. That can't be true. I didn't worry about medical scale. Is Spontaneous Remission right right right? I heard that so many times. She changed her mission. Gave a talk at Harvard once. And this guy who invited me was a friend who a doctor at Harvard and I was talking about autism case that completely completely reversed and there was a pediatrician commission in the audience. And he's like well. It could just be spontaneous remission and then my friend got up and said it may be but it's it's weird. The doctor had like five spontaneous remissions in his practice in the last month. Those very funny so anyway with these other treatments stencil excellent one I think. Hyperbaric oxygen is another because stem cells. Help your body heal repair itself. Hyperbaric oxygen just puts oxygen under pressure. Hyper which would oxygen therapeutic medicine. That can help kill infections. Basically you know people say sunlight's greatest disinfecting will. Oxygen is one of the grades back to absolutely and hyperbaric oxygen. When you're going to tank and you sit there for two hours and Yoda like diamond atmospheric pressure. Then there's treatments are being used in Europe and in Mexico which are not available here. Yeah and some are colleagues like J. T. Lamar is using this for. Ls Yes which thermal tunnel hyperthermia. Which I personally experienced because I was. I'm always trying stuff and I went to Santa even Mexico. I did a podcast about this hyperthermia where they literally put Me Asleep. And the he me up to one hundred and seven degrees so I was toasty. And Todd's like eyebrows are going up. You're still alive. You have still. I'm not a ghost and baked to a crispy. Kreme loud cooked up. Good little hotdog bind find me. And then they gave me antibiotics for BBC which had in line at the peak of the infect at the fever. Because it's sort of flushes everything else. What do I say and so I? It's hyperthermia treatment and this patient of mine who had parked his. When did that? He said it was a game changer. All his lime Susan as joint pain all these other issues parks has got better so I think that can be a therapy. Although it's very controversial issues a lot in Europe Mexico I upset. I said patients who I have done everything I know how to do and I just. They just won't get all the way better and so they go there and they get better nine times out of ten. It's impressive so you your t two thoughts here Martin. But you're getting my brain going and you're talking about hyperthermia. Guess how they used to treat syphilis. They actually used to inject malaria to patients to build a high fever. Knowing an old way of treating the exactly and then the other thing goes around the other the other clinical pearl and I learned this from a rheumatologist who ended up becoming a lime specialist because rheumatologists rheumatological conditions is. She says ask your chronic patients ones last fever somehow another. I think the Orsha her theory was that the organism sort of hijacks the immune system. Such that your fever response does. That's so true. Remember when I have chronic fatigue syndrome mine which I didn't know I had was years ago. I never got a fever and never got sick. Exactly exactly I just never got kind of and that's and that's A. That's a very important question that I asked. My patience was when the last time you had a fever and it's like swell years years of the last therapy which is something we do here at the ultra wellness center which is very controversial but as a lot in Europe and actually there are countries like Italy and Spain China. They're now using it for covid. Nineteen very successfully is ozone therapy. And it's it's been around for a long time. It's a little sort of very well known. In the United States medical ozone therapy we think ozone is bad. Yeah because the ozone layer and the negative connotation bad for your lungs and terrible for your lungs and cause respiratory fibrosis and you know scarring harding your luggage. Not Good but when you do it intravenously directly. It has a profound effect on one being Germans. Seidel which kills the bugs. Because it's an oxidant and to it activates your own body's immune system to fight things and activists rainy oxygen systems. And when I was really sick I did it. I found the most extraordinary results from it and I had multiple patients who've used it. Actually I was hearing about this years ago from people. I kind of dismissed it. I did too. I heard it. I heard about this doing it. And even as a functional medicine doctor I was like that's a little wacky and yet these patients were saying to me. You know mark. The only time I really got better was when I did ozone and I was like Maybe it was something else I was sort of dismiss it but then when I got sick I figured out and I've been using with these patients and it's so remarkable now. I don't know if it actually is curative. But it definitely knocked down and activate your immune so such a changes equilibrium. So maybe and then you don't feel sick so I think I think. There's these other therapies whether it stem cells and excess oxygen hyperthermia ozone therapy. That can help a lot of these really sick patients. That are not getting better. What do you think the mark and the other one put in your Black Guy Peptides? Absolutely good friend of Mine Dr Ed Lee who I call them the Peptide Guru. He's opened up my mind to peptides and unfortunately right now and this actually goes out on the PODCAST. Is that right now? The FDA is trying to take way peptides as therapy for integrative doctors and are going under the guise of the compounding regulations. These these peptide therapies which are basically around forty amino acids in length specifically for lime disease for immune function as one particular Peptide Thomason Alpha. Which is amazing at immune modulation so thymus in is like your thymus gland and early on in our in our in our life we have very large famous clients and interestingly you know who are the people right now who don't die from the cove infection children under the age of nine because their immune system so active and sort of its intelligent and resilient is we own. It is because we always think. I'm going to make a stronger. Immune system. Well that's SORTA like auto immunity where your body like overreacts? And I think that having a good response with an your immune system I call an intelligent. Immune system response is directly tied in with famous function. As we get older our thymus gets less. And that's one of the theories is that is that the active healthy immune response in kids nine and under they don't die of covert it's the adults causing immune resilience or rejuvenation exactly is waking up the immune system and so Peptide I personally. I'm not used that in lyme disease. Although yet not yet I will coming here exactly exactly. Yeah so that's another thing and so there are other tools. And there is no one-size-fits-all I think. Ozone hyperthermia peptides hyperbaric auction. All of these things have their place. You said a very important sentences. Not everyone's the same and I think this is my experience that this is super customized on the patient personal on on what their illness and symptoms are how they respond to different therapies. So we don't start off with the big guns. We start with simple things which often will work for a lot of people but then we have a whole toolkit of things to work from that. I'll just use herbs. Sometimes I will use antibiotics sometimes. I don't sometimes I'll use ozone therapy. I I it just depends on what I'm seeing. I think I think it's really important for people. Understand who suffer from these chronic problems. There is a solution there is a way to diagnose it at there are a lot of novel treatments out there that are not being used by conventional medicine and that that people can get better from this right and and the big thing is. I look in look at these treatments. Is Alternative Really? Sure the risk benefit ratio. What is the benefit? And how much risk is yeah and hyperbaric. Auction is really pretty safe. Spray safe exactly ozone is very safe. Safe exact GEREMIA. Maybe a little more risky. Yeah but it depends on the benefit of your super sick. And you've it's not as risky. Maybe taking antibiotics for two years exactly. And you know stem cells are pretty safe. During on stem cells is under safe. So there's a lot of these things have a good benefit ratio. And I think you know it's really sort of an equation of is there. A scientific rationale for this is it has some evidence of clinical activeness. Is it safe? And what are the costs exactly and so so we put that calculus together. Okay well these are the kinds of things we can try. And you're like me mark you always only. What is the scientific evidence of this? We always only. What's the mechanism houses workers where it's intellectually curious and we are trained in biochemistry and I always tell my patients you know if swinging a dead chicken overhead procures you. That's great because I don't know how it works. It works. There's no there's no harm and swing the chicken exactly. I haven't used the chicken cure yet but I'm GONNA put it in my toolkit. Well thank you so much for listening to this podcast. Everybody and thank you for being on it. You know if you suffer from these problems we at the ultra sitting here are very skilled and experienced in treating these complex chronic issues that nobody else can figure out we now do. All our consoles virtually We can see people in house but they don't need to come in and we loss of treatments of ozone or other therapies. Iv nutrition meaning peptides and so forth. And we really do help. People navigate this landscape from very I think balanced perspective. We're not extreme. We're very thoughtful very methodical and we look for the evidence where where it's there and we push the envelope where we can where it's safe and we see some really remarkable turnarounds for people who've been really sick for decades sometimes so I just so happy everybody's listening to this and that you're you're if you know someone who has some kind of chronic mysterious illness or has diagnosed with chronic lyme or other co-infections. You know there is a way out and sometimes it takes not the first person you see not the ten person you seats and the fifteenth person but I would not give up and I would not sign off on your life until you really doug all the Polo all the rocks and looked under them. I'll leave also mark with with a ray of hope because a lot of people who are like this don't have a ray of hope and I'll always tell my patients. The little humor is always go to say there's light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train coming at you. That's a good one. We'll leave you with that light of the tunnel and is not a trait and there is hope. I don't want people to give up hope because we we really we You know I one of the most frustrating things they hear medicine is. We don't want to give patients false hope and I don't think that's a good statement because for the most part with functional medicine. There's always something to do. There's always a way to improve. Someone's health you may not fix everything all the time. But you can definitely see dramatic improvements and so. I think this is really why we're here why we're GonNa Center and as we do this podcast to help. People UNDERSTAND THAT. There are different ways of thinking about health and disease and how to create a healthy healthy humanity. So thank you all for listening. Thank you for being on the PODCAST. If you love this podcast please share with your friends and family So if you WANNA come see the ultra center go to Ultra Wellness Center DOT COM and you can go to the get started page. Teach all about what we do and how to how to get connected and please share this with your friends and family leave a common. We love to hear from you subscriber. You get your podcast and we'll see you next time on the Doctors Pharmacy Hey everybody's Dr Hyman. Thanks for tuning into the doctor's pharmacy. I hope you're loving. This podcast is one of my favorite things to do and introduce you all the experts that I know and I love that. I've learned so much from and I wanna tell you about something else. Doing which is called marks picks. It's my weekly newsletter and in it. I share my favorite stuff from foods to supplements to gadgets tools to enhance your health. It's all the cool stuff that I use. And then my team uses to optimize our health and I'd love you to sign up for the weekly newsletter. Only Senate. You will once a week on Fridays. Nothing else a promise. And all you do is go to Dr Hyman DOT COM forward slash picks to sign up. That's Dr Hyman Dot Com four size picks Pi K S and. Sign up for the newsletter. And I'll share with you my favorite stuff that I use to enhance my health and get healthier and better and live younger longer. Hi Everyone I hope you enjoyed this week's just reminder that this podcast is for educational purposes only. This podcast is not a substitute for professional care by a doctor or other qualified medical professional. This podcast is provided on the understanding that it does not constitute medical or other professional advice or services. If you're looking for helping your journey seek out a qualified medical practitioner. If you're looking for functional medicine practitioner you can visit ifm dot org and search. They're fine a practitioner database. It's important that you have someone in your corner who's trained. Who's a licensed healthcare practitioner and can help you make changes especially when it comes to your health?
#235: Julia Greenspan, ND - Author, Rising Above Lyme Disease
"All the golden calling only juice. It's time for lime ninja radio. Today. Radio. Didn't it doesn't match the model? That's currently out there. And I realized that early on the model that's currently out there as far as dieting in my opinion, as far as guiding doctors as how to treat line didn't match. What I was seeing in the patient population as far as what was being offered for treatment, what people how people are being turned away that had obvious symptoms. This podcast is sponsored by the lime ninja symptom tracker. I'm so excited to tell you about our new Lyme ninja symptom tracker. One of the things I hear over and over again, whether it's talking to a patient in my office or consulting over the phone with the client is just how difficult it is to keep track of progress on their lime journey recording symptoms daily or even weekly gives them too many data points. There's so many ups and downs twists and turns at some point, they get lost and confused. The lime ninja symptom tracker takes all the guesswork out a tracking symptoms with the simple monthly questionnaire once a month is the perfect interval deceive that new supplement or protocol is working right now. When you take the symptom, tracker, questionnaire, we give you a simple composite score for the month, but we had big plans, and the data, you enter will not be loss as we roll out new features. Best of all, it's free. Just head on over to Lyman into radio. Dot com slash tracker. And sign up that's lime an injured radio dot com slash tracker. You'll be glad you did. Join us every Thursday night tunes for the latest episode of lime ninja radio. Hello I'm your lime journey guide. Mckay Ripi, and this is episode number two hundred thirty five with the author of rising above lime disease. Naturopathic doctor, Julia Greenspan. Also welcome our show producer and the brains behind lime ninja radio Aurora everybody. And in this episode you're going to learn three main. Thanks, number one. How much time should you wait for new protocol to work before you? Give up on it. Number two, why developing healthy mindset starts with setting boundaries. And how putting yourself I is the most unselfish thing you can do. Thanks ROY, and a big shoutout to all you longtime a lime ninjas. You're the reason we have more than half a million downloads Aurora. And I really appreciate you tuning in, and we'd like to welcome all those new listeners out there. Welcome to. Lime ninja radio. You're now officially alignment, you welcome everybody. And as you know, lime disease is an international problem each week. We have listeners join you from all over the world. And this past week, we've had listeners, tune in from Colombia to Canada, and from India to Estonia, or tell us a little bit about today's guests Julia Greenspan doctor. Julia Greenspan is a natural path who graduated from the university of natural medicine in two thousand six she founded her practice in New Hampshire and quickly started trading lime disease. She contracted, Lyme herself and his now raided a top line literate Dr in New Hampshire and in March, she published a book rising above lime disease to support patients and families fighting line. You know, there's nothing like getting lime disease to really open your eyes to everything. There's a pun me, you don't get it till you get it. And doctors who have family members or themselves had Lyme disease are really at the forefront of pushing forward, so best we can do as chairman it's, it's great to have them in the lime community taking care of us. So yeah, you go first. The little low energy right now. Why did you want to talk to Dr Greenspan as you know, we're beginning to lay the foundation for our lime journey roadmap what we've discovered after doing two hundred and thirty what is the thirty five to one hundred thirty four episodes is that most people don't have the basic roadmap and I'm not talking about a specific protocol, like the Cowden protocol, or buehner protocol something like that. But in overall roadmap how you gonna get from where you are right now to lime free. Lease feeling. Yes, I say lime free. I use that term free loosely sent hate mail about it. We know maybe they're maybe not. But anyway, you winning with lime disease like it's no longer an issue. You don't worry about it. I mean that's the ultimate goal. How great would that be just live your life? And just live the life, you wanna live and not worry about, or do you run out of energy today, or you have to pay for it tomorrow type of thing. That's what we're talking about. And Dr Greenspan's book really gets into the first phase. So we, we separated this map this journey the lime journey into three phases. And the first phase is the reboot days as kind of what you take stock aware, you are a lot of times, it has to do with resolve not resolving, but reconfiguring your life. Even if you've been in treatment for a long time. Sometimes you have to take a step back in and start all over again. Right. You have unrealistic expectations. You've. Been doing something that has been working for three years. It's time to try something new. Maybe you just totally at a loss and don't know what to do next. So that's the reboot phase, a lot of times, also people have to reboot if they're just discovering they have Lyme disease. They thought they'd had MS or something, you know, you have to reboot. So that's the first face. The second space is to resolve and that's really resolve all those infections. You have, and that's everything from Epstein Barr to lime to bartonella whatever it might be mold anything that's in there and not exactly to cure it, but to resolve it. So it's no longer the main player, and then the last is to restore knew what damage has been done been done to your mighty Qendra to your psyche. What you have to rebuild and restore to get back on your feet and get back out into the world fulltime. This interview is really about the mindset phase having a healing mindset in what that takes, I encourage you Jack out a book, it's wonderful. If you're in the New Hampshire area. And you need a line practitioner. I was really really impressed with Dr Greenspan looker up, she's wonderful and great asset to have. So that's, that's what we're doing here. All right now, the other thing to know and we'll have more about this information at the end of the interview. So hang onto the end of that, you can go to our website and get a worksheet to help you do this roadmap. And we'll have more information as the weeks, go by and really will have workshops and things like that. So he can create your own lime journey roadmap. We're not really telling you how to do it. We might be telling you kinda when to do it, but we're what, not what to do, but we want to give you the foundations of kind of. What steps to take in how to go forward? Absolutely, we distilled down all these interviews into every successful. Lime patient has done these things in more or less this order. And if you wanna get better, that's what you need to do. It's really that simple. And then you something like the lime ninja symptom cracker to make sure you're progressing for. That's, that's one of the big issues here. There's one thing I talk ask Dr Greenspan about, well, how do you know when to abandon a protocol? And if you listen, we'll give you that answer. So hanging there it's a great interview. And here we go. Hello, Dr Greenspan this McCabe from lime ninja radio. How are you? I'm quite well. I'm very excited to speak with you. My daughter, and I were going through your book this morning in preparation, and congratulations. It's pretty awesome. Thank you. Thank you very much. Now before we dive into what you've learned and what you've written in your book about Lyme disease want to ask you a professional question. Actually, it's like what inspired you to be a natural path because that's a little bit of a path less. Well, taken. Well, I was raised around pharmacy. My dad is a pharmacist in multiple generations of my family. And so I was kinda raised around that world. Most of my life, and I had an interest in medicine, but knew that the conventional model didn't quite work for me. I was actually originally a social worker in psychology. I was heading into getting my master's, and doctorate in psychology. And I realized that I wasn't happy wasn't happy doing the work and one day I looked up on my bookshelf notice that I had a bunch of books on alternative medicine. I was just reading for fun. And it dawned on me that, that was my calling that I take an extra classes in school and done things, and just sort of done it for fun. And I'm like, if I'm doing that for fun than that has to mean something. So back I changed my entire major ahead to go back into pre med classes that I hadn't done that required for psychology and basically started over at the age of twenty four so. And went back in got did a couple years of pre recs in winter medical school also, that's wonderful. That might experience with acupuncture. Same thing. Basically hit me on the head. When I wasn't looking and just said, I'm going to go do then so off. I went. It's funny how those things can creep in, if you pay attention. Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. If it was definitely a calling, and, and then it just kind of took off from there. And so it's not a lot of people. Don't really understand what naturopathy are what our background is. But perfect. So what did you tell us a little bit? Thanks. Yeah. There's a little bit of a difference. There are a lot of individuals who, who might say that they are Natura pass debt have a bit of a different education. But ND's that practice in several states that are licensed throughout the United States in every year. More and more states are becoming more formerly licensed in explain with that means in a second. But basically, you know. You know. Doctors in general are required to have an undergraduate degree a four year bachelor's or master's in move on doing a doctorate than so the same as required. For naturopathic doctors, there are about four different schools in the United States, I went to when that's Portland, Oregon. That was the fiftieth graduating class. And basically, it's, it's, it's a medical program just as just as you would find the first two years or basic Medical Sciences, in the second two years. Focuses more in on specialties in clinical time. And then we also have residencies for for docstater coming as well in moving on into their careers. And so, you know, there's quite a bit of education there, and we're also in the states where we are licensed, I was actually chair of the board here. I live in New Hampshire and we have a state medical board that are specific for naturopathic doctors that hold to the same standards and regulations and quality of care. As far as keeping up our continuing education, making sure that we're providing a safe medical care, and you'll find in different states on the west coast were more well known where a lot more of us there, because there's a lot more schools on that side of the of the country versus the east coast. So here in New Hampshire, there's only about forty or fifty practicing naturopathic doctors, whereas in Oregon, you'll find several thousand and so there are a lot more integrated into the hospital system, but naturopathy covered under insurance. So loud people, that's the big question when people come in and see after Pethick doctor, they wanna know for covered in they, they can be depending on the state here in New Hampshire. It is very convenient for being a lime specialist that I am covered by insurance because, you know anybody who's been dealing with lime disease knows that it definitely can be very expensive process to try to recover from lime so anything that we can do to help make that easier. National physician. Where's white says? Gee, I wonder if I can if they're licensed natural paths in my state where can they find out that info at the American Association of naturopathic physicians? No here in New York, it's we're not there yet. Now keep trying though. Yeah, there's a few states that are that are still kind of struggling with trying to get that to go through and gain acceptance. What it does when that happens is it provides more safety for the public because if you know if people don't know, and they're going to see somebody who calls themselves in after Pathak doctor in, in somebody doesn't know that there are programs out there that it, we're individuals might go school for just a couple of months, take classes online, and if they're working at a state where they don't have to have any type of credentialing or a degree or prove that they've passed boards and olive added that there are continuing their training, you know, they can just hang shingle on. Sam naturopathic doctor. So you really there are people who are practicing unlicensed states that are from for your medical programs. You really want to ask somebody if you're gonna go see a naturopathic where did you graduate from how many years, did you go to school may be licensed in other states where there is licensure where they're maintaining that. But it really is safety for the public. You want someone who's working with you that has a medical background that's gonna be giving you medical advice and providing care Besters, one of the schools. And what are the others yet? I went to the national college of natural medicine, and there is also the southwest college of natural medicine or naturopathic medicine in Zona, and then investor also has a satellite school in, in California, as well. And there is also a school up in Vancouver BC, but there's, there's just a few of us than there is a school in on the west coast in Connecticut, but I think that it is actually closing, but it was a Bridgeport, which port university, so. Yeah, there you go. There's a little bit of background. They're not think that's important because it's we hear sometimes actually it's like Audi pronounce it right into its nature, Natura Pam as you start. You start there's like, how do you pronounce that thing? And then it's kinda like, well, what exactly is start talking to two different practitioners. And some of them are such MD's like you said, and then others are just like experts in supplements. So it does make it may. A huge difference in, in California. They can prescribe medicine as well, right? And here in New Hampshire. That's well, yeah. So it's, it's really, you know, you guys are the first than now, the trying to will not try to, but the functional medicine movement on the MD side of things is really trying to bridge that gap. But a why reinvent the wheel? You've got this wonderful training and education already in places like just become a natural path. Well, and it's a different type of training. So there's things I, I know what I know. I know what I don't know. And there are things that are going to be perfect for someone to come see after path for, they're gonna be things that are going to be more suited for seeing a conventional medical practitioner, that has hospital writes, in that can escalate things in a way that, that I can't that might training dozen involved. But when it comes to the chronic disease model naturopathic are really, we're, we're really trained from day, one to be managing a chronic illness, and that really is the, the number one issue, over acute disease, you know, over cute infections, the chronic illness is the one that's really putting a strain on human quality of life, and on, really the medical system in general, both financially, and, you know, in all respects so, speaking here and really focusing in on the patient in their whole story. So our goal is to really look at all aspects of, you know what a patient has been through up until the point that they are sitting down in. Our office. And then my job is to try to help them build themselves back into being healthy over the course of time in with lime disease. That is especially true, that there is a there's a whole rebuilding in restoration process along with trying to get over the infection speaking of that. Why lime disease? Why did I specialize in that when I first moved here, I grew up in Portland, Oregon actually I I'm not actually what east coast girl on the west coast girl, but I've lived here for about twelve years, and twelve or thirteen years. And I when I first moved here, my goal was to start a clinic for general practice, general family medicine, and environmental medicine was my main medical school. So cleaning people out toxins out of them getting helping them restore their health with how they eat in with our what's in their homes in their bodies. So doing key Latian in heavy metal Latian detox and people started to show up I growing up the reason why. Growing up in Portland, Oregon or growing up in an area where there isn't really much lime. Or at least there, wasn't for me growing up, and it was nothing compared to what it is here on the east coast. You know, it was I had no idea of what it really meant to live somewhere with a epidemic. You know, having to go outside. I mean, we had bugs in all sorts of stuff, and things like that in Oregon, but not not like it is here with ticks, and so people started to show up with illnesses, and I, you know, by hearing, their story, I tested them for lime are positive. I'd say we'll go in go into your PCP this positive for lime. It's an infectious disease at the time I wasn't how, how hard can it be? Gertie again. And, and I don't really like to anybody attics, it's not my thing. You know, I just graduated it was I that wasn't my focus or my comfort zone, so people came back patients come back by the week or two later and say, you know, I tried and they refused, they used to treat me so Mike. What am I coming from a social work background? I have a real problem with disenfranchisement and people not getting the care that they need. And so I started treating in this area once people here that you treat Lyme disease. They, you know, the word get quickly. And then. So we'd been a few years that I started to treat lime just because it kept showing up. So the practice chose me. And then I found out I had it. A line I had lime disease, Fabio sus. And so the patient as well. Yeah. So that was very life changing and helped me, a better doctor have those. Yeah. So where what did you turn to, to begin learning about line, the first packet, the first thing I ever read, and actually I'm going to be doing a lecture with him in a few weeks? I'm I'm a little nervous about that because he's like my lame superhero. But is a Joseph I gone. Oh, yes, of course, he has a packet out online called advanced topics online disease. And, and when I was, I thinking, all right. Maybe I'll do this lime thing, but many doctors doing it and people need help, and I gotta get myself like I gotta get some idea of what to do. What's going with that handle this? So it's about a forty five forty forty page document, and I have recommended over the years, because it was for a long time before other books that come out online that was. A really nice resource for people that could be reliable because it's a big issue with people trying to find reliable information around Lyme disease with the internet, especially with everything out there. And all the fear and kind of the, you know, the opinions about it. So I would say that was my very first resource that really helped me in, then, of course, I've been training, a member of eyelids. And, and I've been doing their trainings for years in some going yearly to the conferences the best, I can in the knife, started off by taking their they have courses that they teach every year for new doctors that are treating lime to kinda give them a primer on idea of how to get started. So I started with that about a decade ago or a little over a decade. Awesome. Just curious. Why? I mean that kind of the answer already my head. But I wanna ask you, why not the idea say. Well, you're going there. Okay. But really? So you're gonna call you dock your doctor? Right. And Lyme disease is kind of new to you. And the only reason I feel you would not lean that way, because you're Natura path in, you kinda low more open minded, but why not go to the experts because treatment appears people being denied care. Okay. It doesn't match the model that's currently out there and I realized that early on the model that's currently out there as far as guiding in my opinion. Okay. If our guiding doctors as to how to treat lime didn't match what I was seeing in the patient population as far as what was being offered for treatment, what people how people are being turned away that had obvious symptoms lab results that, you know, that treatment time one of the major differences, I find between the idea say I ladder is treatment time, you know, that, that we treat longer in. We treat until we see symptoms. Coming to a time of being in a place of remission or recovery. And, and many times in the current the current limitations set out by the idea say it's sort of like the well we've treated you for lime. That's it, you're done. And it has to be something else now. And then they have post Lyme syndrome in, you know, if you look at the literature, there, even doctors who are in alignment, more with the conventional model, but they'll say in, you know, instead, he's that, okay? We have the definition of post Lyme syndrome for individuals who pad lime in now have, you know, continued joint pain, headaches fatigue, will, how are we serving that population? You know, that was really important question of somebody who falls more the idea say, model when I was doing research for the book they, you know, like, how do we serve this population? We don't even have they didn't even have guidelines as to how to really serve this population that had all these chronic issues after having line. We label then call it something. But there's really no fall. Oh, through with how to manage care for these individuals. So I think those are some big distinctions in why that model didn't work well for me. And also, you'll find that the islets model is very integrative with natural medicines in weaving that in, and that's a really big part in a really popular part, when you when you go to the conferences in things you see, allow the doctors, the MD's Dios nurse practitioners natural as are all talking about conventional treatment with antibiotics in different medications, and balancing that with natural medicine. And that's that's where I felt most comfortable fair to say that in seeing these patients, come back to you kind of you weren't satisfied with, with what you saw. Like, okay, who else is out there that we can begin to learn exactly? Though. Yeah. So you learn from your patients. Yes, smart. Yeah. Yeah, I'm very I love what I do. And I'm very connected to the community here. Very connected to the population. I might you know, a lot of compassion, I feel very protective of the patients in how protective I am of they're, you know, making sure that they're mentally emotionally physically handling everything. Okay. Moving through the process, and that was a big motivation with writing a book that having a more open discussion about what's happening to people because of all of the controversy around. The disease is actually creating more trauma in more chaos for individuals in more for them to recover from because they're stuck in the middle of this back and forth between doctors and being not knowing who to believe, in what to believe in being very demoralized by being denied care being told that they don't have what they have, they don't have lime disease doesn't exist, or they don't have these tick-borne disease. This can't possibly be what's wrong with you. So it's really hurting families. It's hurting individuals. So that, that to me, and especially I live in a smaller kind of community here in New Hampshire versus where I grew up in Portland, Oregon and more metropolitan, and so I feel very connected with the community in that way, though health far Deger, lime progress. I had neuro logical lime. So I it took two years of treatment a used about everything you can imagine, and I want people that will try stuff out on myself before. Like when I bring new therapies into the clinic alt-right outta myself before off, give it to somebody else, and I did about five months of IV antibiotics, and this is all in tandem with natural medications, all sorts of different support, if they're buddies, physical therapies, and things like that, and energetic ones, as well in my mind involved, you know, having a lot of neurological issue. So I would have a lotta seizure. Events, read be more awake and that's pretty common. I see in the baby's you population with lime lot of normal body movements and things like that had a really hard time, tolerating being in public spaces and was in a lot of pain, and very uncomfortable. But I still, I don't know how I did it but still managed to work my practice. Day. But, you know, I had a very lucky situation where I was going through all that. But I had a built in. Support system here, you know, I ran a line took born these clinic. So I could sit here with my ID and my arm dripping wall talking with patients, you know, in every day, I had people that were giving me support going through it, you know, and how important that was for my recovery, but it wasn't easy. Of course, it took a long time just like I mean I mean two years, actually lime is pretty his short. Yeah. Absolutely. So I got a you know, I got I got through fairly easy, easy compared to other patients that I treat. You can't place a value on that type of support. I mean that's almost the first step in many people's journey to getting better is trying to find some level of support, whether it's in their family, or with friends or even online, because it can be so even this day and age. So stressful just there, you know, it's being dismissed is like just like you said, from the doctors just dismissed, and specially in unfortunately, you know, there's the white coat syndrome with hyper with hypertension kind of thing, and you get nervous in your blood pressure goes up with visiting the doctor, but then there's also this, this white coat syndrome where if somebody's having a problem with you doesn't understand what's going on. And they hear some doctors say somewhere that were and the wearing a lab coat that Lyme disease is, is idea say. Easy to treat these to cure you get over a couple of weeks, antibiotics. Thank you very much. The rest is just something else said a dozen exist, this chronic Lyme disease, then, you know, then you get friends and and neighbors are giving you a really hard time. And I know I wanna get into I cut you actually bring up that type of thing in your book quite a bit. And that's one of the things I loved about your book, but before we go, there you brought up your, your pats practice was in tuck city, right in an environmental medicine, and let me I'm going to ask this to two questions might be related. Do you would you under stress when you got bit in infected? Do you think we're you Volna Rable at that point in time? Yeah. While I it's hard to know vacuum that I've actually never pulled a tick out of my skin ever that I found. So I had no idea when I was bit. But I know of a couple of times where I got sick. One of them's actually, in the third trimester of pregnancy child. Yeah. And so pretty convinced that that's when I developed visa, but it was also during that h one n one flu epidemic. You know, my son was born in two thousand nine so. I definitely will say that I was under stress. I was starting practice. I was a mother of toddler. I will my daughter was born two years prior. And I you know not sleeping. I wasn't getting a lotta sleep. I was burning the candle both ends. And I'm just that anyway. And I also had Bayreuth issues as well on top of that, that I developed since the pregnancy. So, of course, the firewood plays a really big role in, in wellness in, in being able to sustain during times of being ill and being able to have your immune system overcome that. So I would say absolutely I was. And then, of course not knowing that I was infected for quite a while. I think things just piled up for me than finally became noticeable. But I definitely didn't pick up on it in myself right away. When I look back I should have picked up on it. But I did that same thing that so many other patients do of the explaining away symptoms. You know visitors who wants to be sick, and what he wants to be sick on, you know, all these other things, and then, and then you think, well, maybe I should go get this checked out in the Nelson few weeks later, you're fine. The office where people make appointments in their desperate to get in a call about a week before their appointment. I'm feeling much better now fine. I'm good. I'm great. I don't need the appointment. And then with her from them a couple of weeks after they cancelled. Oh my gosh, made such a mistake. I gotta get. I'm in, even if you feel good, just come in, so I will say, environmentally yet for a lot of people, especially they live in a home with mold big one a lot with Richie shoemakers protocols. Yet genetic pathways that are able to discern. If somebody has a hard time with getting rid of biotoxins from, from mold or from microbes, even are part of the pathways that are looked at that. And then how much inflammation that's causing in the body than isolating. 'cause in for a lot of people that causes their home here with all the snow and the moisture in certain times a year, mold than ice, dams and things like that in, in water encroaching in the houses fairly something happens quite often for people, so they have no idea that the house is really the one, making them sick or where they live. That's, that's potentially aiding their illness in making it more difficult. For them. Recently somebody in their community was mold. So they felt worse as they approached the front door is that weird. So it's like the bone. Yeah. The homeless find tested out fine. There was something in the neighborhood, some mold. So I don't know if they were in a farming community remit the details, but that isn't, yes. So it's there's the whole an end. So where are you in a farming community their New Hampshire? No, I would say it's sort of a blend of both at this point. It growing quite a bit here. His people are sprawling from Boston. I live on our side of Boston. Okay. Yeah. You know. But there still is, you know, you get out into the countryside, you know, twenty thirty minutes any direction from where I am. You're gonna see definitely more farming community. Or people with just, you know, a lot of acreage with a not necessarily farming, but they, they liked to people buy homes here, because they can get a lot of age that acreage is gonna have a lot of wildlife, and beauty and ticks. Yes, it does. All right. Let's dive into your book here. And again, one of the things I appreciated is not only are you gonna going through details of this these different ways to treat the infections. But you're trying to help people I like to say think outside the tick, I think you may be said that in, in your book that phrase, and think about these co-infections in how really they fit handed glove and and use each other to evade immune system. It's, it's really pernicious how they do that. But then also you get into the cycle. It's probably 'cause your background the psychosocial kind of aspects of that in taking care of your spirit and out, say you're hearing healing spirit instead of fighting spirit to keep going right to keep going to keep a positive attitude and to keep putting one step in. One of the other end adjusting adjusting your goals, and your expectations of yourself in, in your community, the 'cause went when you do become berry berry, l like you were in. You're sitting there with a pick line of doing your job at the same time, it's not the same as it was a year ago when you could burn the candle at three ends and Joel children in jobs and starting new business. So how how, how did you integrate that? What do you recommend? What do you see in patients? What's the beginning step here that people are already sick but have to get their their minds right there, spirits? Right. So that they can begin to make realistic decisions. Realistic informed choices in terms of healing. Question. So the I'd say that it would it comes right down to it that the core issue for just about everyone myself included is mealy getting a lesson on self care and also boundaries. You'll find that the individuals that really struggle, the most are the ones that are so credibly hard on themselves because they can't be they can't be this person that they were for others, or the person that they saw the thought that like the image show, the person that they thought that they the person they think they should be that should be going be able to do all these activities be able to go do. All this work be able to maintain any schedules, having a hard time saying no to others. You know, having being able to say, you know, these are individuals that want to do so many different things were able to do a lot of things. And so mentally emotionally. It can be very crushing when you can't go even like if you were someone who was a bike rider, avid, bike rider hiker. In, you know involved in activities, and you can't do that anymore. There's, there's a grieving, and that Penn alost in fear that, that you're not gonna be able to do that again. So for a lot of people to total change of their self concept, depending on how long the illnesses is, is allowed to, you know how long that goes on for somebody. So the first piece of it is going to be that, that self care piece of, of being able to, to say, no, I noticed that individuals who you know, are able to, to step back in reel. It in and realize what the priorities are like, what really they only have so much real estate only so much real estate that we can think about that we can be involved in on a daily basis. And if we're spending a lot of time with thinking about all the things we can't have that were not able to do who were letting down. We're letting ourselves down letting kids down, you know, a leading partner down. I just can't get well. Well, you know, I can't do this. I can't do that. And you spend a majority of your real estate, your thought form real estate thinking about that, then that is going to have an impact on the physical body. And there's a field of study called second year immunology which studies the, you know, how our thoughts in packed proteins expressed by yourselves and how our nervous system works in that integrates with the immune system. So if, if those things are not if we're spending a lot of time, thinking in worrying the other component of this. I know I might be might be a jumping around your little bit. But another is individuals who win. They have lime spend a whole bunch of time focused in on, you know, trying to find the next cure trying to I think that over research. So then again, they're spending all of this time in chat rooms in all these places trying to completely immersed in sunk into it to the point where they. Lose themselves in than they spend the rest of the time feeling the sense of loss in there's no place that supports them through this, that, then you look at community. It's reflecting back this somebody that will you want you over this yet. You know, why aren't you better yet? Are you're not seeing, you know, maybe your doctor isn't giving you the right treatment. That's why you're not better yet. Maybe you're not try this my aunt my aunt Josie. Tried this, this is gonna cure, you it made her better, you know, or and, and then it gets to point where people get isolated because then if they do share how they feel after a while they're not getting a very supportive response, because people's expectations socially that you should be over something or done with something don't match with somebody's actually experiencing. So then they, they, they become more withdrawn, and you know, kind of more isolated. So I know I kind of went off on a lot of chances on that. But that's, that's the discussion very interested in and you bring up a very interesting point, I haven't. Said this explicitly on this podcast podcast yet. But I'm going to start encouraging people to go on information. Hyatt. Into into limit you really don't need to know fifty different lime treatments, you need to know the one you're working on now and then plan b if that doesn't work. And after that, stop, you know, if you do have to go to plan B, then, you know that you can research, another one or whether to practice you whether you're doing it yourself or whether you're working with the practitioner and end I there, there is so much out there and in everything has worked once for everybody, and everything has not worked for somebody, and you will find all that information on the internet, and you can't ride more than one horse at a time, unless you're in a circus, and we don't want to be in a circuits. We wanna get cured from from y disease, so with that in your practice in your experience, how and I know that another is no straight answer for this. But in general gross generalities here. How long for treatment dally do give before you start thinking, well, maybe it's time to try something else? So. A typical average treatment time we're talking about chronic Lyme chronic tick borne diseases yet, I'm not even talking about from, like from coming into your office to be completely cured. Thank you very much. I'm talking about when, when should you begin to see some positive feedback yet. So if I'm just starting off with a patient and getting them started on a medication. Typically in this may be their first time attempting to treat line, usually the first two to four months, or the most difficult with something called her timer response. Time reaction or a Yar ash hurt simul reaction named after scientists that discovered that people were having reactions with certain infections, where inflammation would go up and have they'd have more difficulty while while treating those infections. And it in that same that typically that must've happens with Spira Kate infections like syphilis in there, of course, with lime diseases fire, Keith infection. So people typically were kinda be on up and down roller coaster. After the first two to four months, usually meet with patients, every two months, unless they need me sooner in between hand depending on an urgent situation and the reason why the time period seem so long as because I, I need people to be on the meds for certain period of time in order for me to be able to give them information and give them feedback. That, hey, y'all K know by the first visit let's say two months in, I usually tell people that I expect to see something improve some things are going to be worse. And then something's, you might get some new symptoms, you didn't have before, or you know, but there's gonna be some shift there somewhere the other end, that's in the next pretty much to me, that's like a good prognosis that they're running with the pack. If somebody comes into see me, two months in there on medication A medication regime natural medicine blended with antibiotics or just natural medicine alone. And I'm not seeing any change has been no change in symptoms. Then, you know, then I usually will end up changing what has what it is. I'm doing so as long as I'm still seeing change as people move along and come back and see me. It's sort of taken by case by case basis with every kind of chunk of time that I see someone but if we're still seeing progress in their symptoms. I'll usually keep them where they're at maybe tweak, a few things depending on if something's coming up with their digestive system. Were, you know, their, their hormones or something of that ager and get to a point appoint a plateau, where things kinda stay the same or regress, pretty negatively in? Stay pretty consistently have symptoms that are more difficult than they stay more persistently consistently versus just like a flare like a hurt time response that obviously, I change change the medication regime, again, that might be adding different changing the antibiotic that might be changing the natural medicine that might be taking away the antibiotics today for two or three patients, you know that I saw today about twelve patients today for two or three patients it was. You know, it was saying, hey, you know, your antibody storm really seem to be working very well. Let's try doing all natural only. And then had if you follow patients, where I've done that by that, if you couple months ago when they're doing fabulous. So, you know that that's typically how it goes is far as as treatment goes with patients. It is more of an individual basis. But I hope that gives a good idea kind of what I expect to see what other doctors, you know, I think kind of I from what I gather follow that same, sort of patterning. In the two month window, that's long enough and to allow things to run the course of long enough for your body to respond and to get to get some idea. And again, I'm not looking for total cure, but I think we do run into I'm sure you've had those patients to where they've been on a treatment regimen for six months or a year. And there's been very little shift in anything and, you know, they're being told well just hanging there at some point that you just it doesn't make sense now. That's not the I have there are, you know, that particular style of docs that treat this in not mine. I you're still diplomatic. And there's probably don't agree with how I you know, would treat something. I have I have to be very humble because, you know, we'll of course, aided, I'm gonna get schooled somewhere along the line if I right when whenever we got for your God sends a patient, along just to remind us, right? And it does happen. Yeah. So I understand that. But, but the, the point the point is and, and, you know, in your case, you've got the you've got the personal experiment experience clinical experience, and your that helps definitely I think, really people begin to struggle, and then can go down the rabbit hole of trying to find the perfect the perfect solution, the silver bullet that's going to cure the line, which we all know that, for the most part, once it's chronic it isn't cut. You're not just dealing with lime. You're dealing with eighteen other things as a. Hardwood says, but, but I think there needs to be some realistic understandable. I need to be taking another close. Look at myself in my health, and, and tracking it to, you know. So when you're take notes, so you, you can look at patient, look back. Okay. This is improved a two months. You may not remember it. But when I came in, and they'll say, oh, yeah, I remember that, that has gotten better. And so I think it's important that, that people do that as well. And not to track, I think tracking every day makes you crazy. There's just you know, once a week, it's probably too much to. So, you know, once a month, once every two months, something like that taking some form of assessment has visiting your practitioners is it sounds like really smart thing to do. So thank you for being willing to put an even though yet qualifications on putting a, a timeframe on that. And in that also want to kind of bring this conversation toward close. But before we do that, one of the things you bring up in your book is a blocked to healing and it, you label it as a spiritual block. And that area is. So, you know, we throw around the words spirit, and really, it's kinda like energy in my world. It's, it's, it's used in so many ways by so many people that's almost become meaningless. But you mean something quite specific by it? Yeah. Well, I think so we are way more than we know about ourselves like we, you know, we're we are bigger than we than we understand. And we are more powerful than we understand, and part of what's happening on many spiritual fronts with different religions also with the new age movement is people trying to wake up to that trying to find their way back to that. And trying to find that way back to understanding having communication with our bodies in having communication, with higher aspects of ourselves, you know, with the whole community with feeling connected. You know, with ourselves and with the greater the greater picture. And so when it comes to our, there are decisions that get made that are not even conscious decisions on, on a on a soul level, I believe, than I've experienced enough with patients. I practice Shimada keeling arts as well as other energy medicine modalities, in have been training in that for several years and continue to in probably will continue to Volve that for the rest of my life, as it is just it's a practice just like you know, just as medicine is the practice in it's different form of medicine. But it goes more into, you know where, where are we not hearing ourselves where we not consciously aware where we have actually made a choice, and again, not a choice. It's it, it's a very delicate place to go and have a conversation, a lot of times when you start going into this conversation, people might jump to thank are you saying choosing to be sick? Or are you saying, you know? This is my fault, you know, earned off by the idea of having the conversation, especially the very angry in, you know, have a lot of trauma around being told that they're making this up, and that, they're, you know, so, but it's about getting into the unconscious in subconscious level of what is what kind of decisions are we making in that kind of Behi behind the curtain, you know, but in, in the more in the shadows in bringing that more to the forefront and this isn't just stuff that it's, it's incorporating stuff that's happened to us in this lifetime here since birth, you know, traumas, things like that, that we didn't even know that decisions were sort of made that now a disease comes into the body in lands in the body, and we have certain ways, we think, feel in energies, that we carry frequencies that we carry based on things that we've experienced in that choices we've made out of surviving those experiences because I mean, you know. Varying degrees, people have more traumatizing lives versus less versus others. But what somebody views as being traumatizing, what's important. It could be something that somebody else who is survived horrific, you know, refugee crises in had seen terrible things you know, murders happened in front of them have had terrible abuses in atrocities really could have honestly, the same type of experience with somebody who might have just, you know, witnessed something that we wouldn't consider to be that big of a deal, but to that person that was a major trauma for them. So then a decision gets made specially in use that can alter and change, how we're going to respond to a certain infection when it comes into the system, and how much that infection will become magnified or how, how is that partnering? We can't control that, you know, if we're talking about tick-borne Z's, if it decides it's gonna make us lunch. You know, make us their dinner, we, we don't have control over that if it's going to happen. But once the disease comes in. Especially if you get multiple bites over time and it's not dealt with there is a physical component there. It's not just psychological spiritual. But if somebody feels disempowered by the fact that we can't control how fast line is going to move to the physical body by just using medications and taking stuff from the outside world. How do we empower somebody from the inside out? So by trying to go inward and help someone try to find those links to anything that they're holding onto that are blocks on belief systems. Even so one of the methods used is applied kinesiology that one's very well known. It's muscle testing. A lot of people use that for different in different ways you can start to ask the body. Hey, you know. You know, do you want to be well in the personnel ask the person laying there. You know, I'll ask verbally and they'll say, we'll of course here like a minor table, it you think I'm like paying for your time. Why would I be here if I didn't wanna be well, and then I asked the body, the body says, don't and then we go back and we start to trace will wear that original belief you know, about not being worthy about what which Royce did you make that you felt like you didn't deserve to be well. This is just one just one example. There are wounds that we carry that are not just hours that we have in this lifetime. But also that follow in our family. So there's tons of research coming out now on trans generational. Healing entrance. Generational trauma. You know, the population that gets the most research, done, of course, they're doing a lot of it with mice because they can unfortunately traumatize mouse or mouse, mother. And then follow the pups in. We can see that in a very sinked amount of time that we watch unsteady, but as far as the human population, most of that's done with them tracing. Tracking holocaust survivors with certain genetic so genetics is another term that we're seeing become popular in more out there, because it is about people taking being able to step more into taking personal responsibility and trying to trying to take their power back. You know feel empowered about not feel disempowered in like we're stuck in a body that sick. Network stuck here in that we're supposed to, you know, there are times in many, many times where we need to surrender and be, you know, an accept that this is what's going wrong with our bodies, but there are ways to do that in a way where we can also empower our selves at the same time in being acceptance that there is suffering going on. But look at how my is there something else going on that could ease my suffering is there something I'm holding onto so no. Again, I could go and talk about this hours. So I'll kind of all kind of rain in bring the horses back year of it. But I, I hope I answered the question didn't go too often to into the into something too big in heady. But the, the main thing there is that, you know, we can't deny that right now science starting to really corroborate and show things that, you know, Shimada practitioners in enter individuals with sensitivities in who've been doing energy work in acupuncture, in all these modalities that are. Entering into the different aspects of physical body n our energy bodies because we know we hear about the shockers and all that type of thing that, you know, in the nod in the meridians that data is stored there. And so how do we access that data when we need it the most, you know, when our health is really our bodies really going a different direction than our psyche wants to go. And how do we make the merged together so that, you know, how do we bring those two together so that the body can now start to benefit from the psyche being healed? You know, the soul. Absolutely. Again. I hope I didn't go. No. We don't this is a conversation way whose covers. So this is a conversation out in the world that it's probably going on for millennia for lots of people, but I recent it's kind of faded away a little bit. And as is just coming back to the baseline, let's say, and are kinda current awkward with the conversation. We're just we're not fluent in it. It's not a common experience. That's talk a whole lot. I mean, there's tons out there, but there's, there's so many different ideas that when we do talk about it is, we're fumbling a little bit like a toddler walking just it's not a confident, stride of, of a twenty one year old. It's, it's a beginning conversation. So I think it's important. Why ask you about that? Is it so important to consider ways that were not well, or ways that, were that, that are healings block? Let's put it that way that interrupt their healing that like you said is inter. Unconscious and because of our blinders for studying herbal preparations, the, you know, the herbs may or may not touch the spirit. Depending on how we're using them in the context using them in and just focus on. How do I open up this particular detoxification pathway or had why support these anti-oxidants or what's the best way to kill the Busia or support my body? That, that limits us and the people who've been stuck for many, many years, it need to take expand the vision need to expand the possibility of, you know what what's really holding you back here. And I to kind of bring this home, she wasn't patient of mine, but I had interviewed her a couple times on the on the podcast, this lovely young women. She's Danish or something way up from that corner of the world and had lime terribly just terrible terrible. And what finally flip. The switch for her was. She did a, a mental training program, especially some, some brain repair, and training. And she she learned how to manage brain, and that she said, once she got into this basically, listening to recordings and doing some exercises on our own. It's like she felt so much better. It was the right medicine at the right time. And it had nothing to do with taking a nother supplementary or or antibiotic and I think we need to keep like you said, we're bicker, we're bigger than we think we are there's more going on than with we are. And if we're stuck, it's probably not about the stuff. We know it's the stuff we don't know, or the stuff we don't know that we don't know. And yeah, we don't know what questions to ask. We don't know that we can ask those questions, you know, in Sobat, that's the interesting piece too, when you bring up. So we look at herbs right now. Science period research is really looking into studying more herbs in their properties and everything else. But then you have a whole subset of cultures indigenous cultures and individuals who studied plant spirit medicine who really understand how to communicate with plants, you know. And, and we know plants respond to human interaction when we treat them a certain way we say certain things to them, we know. We have that interaction with them. So what does that feel, what is that connection that we have with them and also going back to the patient? You were talking about, you know, we really have so much more power in rebuilding. Ourselves having the patients to allow our bodies to rebuild. I think the big piece is also patients and patients runs through everything that we've discussed in regards to treatment time in regards to, you know, being on information, you know, information, cleanse detoxing elected permission cleanse. It's also I'm stealing that. Yeah, we're we're there's I mean, I would say, even line just take lime out of it, and you ask anybody. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And even as a doctor I can't keep up in. I feel like I read constantly and I still feel like I can't keep up on the latest thing in the latest thing in the latest thing of this coming out that coming out in it feels even more fast and furious now than it did. When I first started practicing to try to keep up with how things keep changing different opinions about things, you know, the stem cells in extra zones, and in this therapy met there, be trying to keep up with all that. Sometimes I all I can do, just sit back and go, okay, what do we know to do in calm down, just have a discussion with this patient and just get back to basics you know, sometimes you just gotta pull it back in, you know, sometimes you just can feel overwhelmed. And so the but the impatience is what's motivating that, you know, we want. We want right now. Want it fixed right now. How come it's not fixed right now. There's gotta be something else is gonna fix this right now. And our brains are really starting to become wired about one, you know, based on the technology, so fast at wanting everything so fast in wanting it, so the, the patients piece on all levels, but the mind body spirit, and then our interaction with microbes and how long it takes to recover recoup. The big piece, I think for everybody to when you asked about the thing for patients is, is the self care. But also patients is a big one in I I'm right up there with somebody that constantly has to work on that. So. With every technology. There is a lesson or a rebound or some other technology needs to come in behind it in clean it up, and we have created a massive technology. It was not since the written word. We don't think of writing as technology, but it was when I was complaining about something years ago, my daughter who's studying ancient Greek at the time told me, you know, that's the same thing. They said five thousand years ago when writing was introduced in Greece, and they claimed it was going to ruin the culture and destroy storytelling so forth. And so on and one sense they were right. You know it did we did lose that quite a bit. But it introduced a whole nother writing has been a wonderful powerful tool. So I think we're in that kind of evolutionary societal change right now, which makes things either. Even more people in, in dealing with simple things like a simple, quote unquote, simple thing, like a chronic infection, like lime in all the friends at come along with it. Okay. That degreen span before we can't. We can't go without plugging your book and I wanna plug it hard because it's an awesome book. Tell us just a little bit about your book, where can people get it is on Amazon is on audio books on the kind of good stuff. And then how can people get in touch with you, and you do phone consults or did they have to drive up to New Hampshire? Well, they can they can find the on WWW greenhouse medicine dot com, and I would say, yeah, I do tend to wanna meet with people that are a little closer in here to where I practice versus doing something where I'm treating somebody across the country. So don't tend to do phone consults per se as a as a practice with, like telemedicine at this point, because I will on case by case basis with patients, but typically need to meet with somebody in person. I. In. Let's see here as far as the book the book is rising above lime disease in its, but it's available on Amazon, kindle and Barnes and noble. And it's not an audio book, yet, I've been trying to get my publishers to have been talking with them. So we're in discussions with that. Because main motivation for wanting audio book, is that a lot of line patients have a hard time reading do better with audio so I've been trying to, to push for that to happen. So hopefully that will happen. And yeah. Side of that them they go. There's me. But the book it sells really is meant for patients families. Doctors, there's a you know, I did a ton of research on the latest research on herbs. And you know what's, what's happening with lime disease? I try to stay current as I could. So it definitely could be helpful with practitioners that are treating us or those that are just getting started, or those just wanna take a look and see what, what I'm up to. There's a lot of tables in the back that have the different herbs in how they should be used in, in dosages also what they're, they're helpful for as far as citations, as well on that. So it's really just the main motivation for the book was that what I pictured in my mind was somebody who's by themselves. Let's say in the middle in having just anxious in frayed feeling very alone that, you know, they had my book in could read it that it would help them feel better. And or if they wanna have their family member understand, or their friends. I understand what they're going through, and they don't have it in them to try to explain it all, or maybe their families, or friends are don't wanna hear it from them, necessarily, or kind of not falling on deaf ears. But if the hero from somebody else, so sort of as an advocate at spreading, what I feel is really solid information on what's going on. And so that, that was my main motivation for writing it. It's amazing book in what I love about it is backup here. Just a little second little context is. So we've been doing this podcast now for going, it's almost five years, you'll be like the two hundred thirty fifth interview or something like that. By the time it comes out and. Kind of started off just well, let's kinda just get started end in interviewing people, both patients researchers practitioners what became very clear is. There's no clear path in you get cancer and doctors like in. You said the earlier, there's no cancer. There's a path like you may not like the path that doctors Jews for you. Right. But there's a very clear path in these are the steps you do. And these are the people we bring in here treatment options lime disease like you said, once you get past the first two three weeks month to month and you're still sick. There's nothing out there. So people aren't really and doctors don't have this to practitioners have, there's no road Pap, and your book is the closest we've seen to really feeling in what we believe the steps for the roadmap. And that's that's remarkable. So you know, it takes you from the very beginning takes you get. Your mind, right? It takes you through diagnosis possible, other diagnosis preparing for treatment. You know that's so very important. And you can kind of prepare for treatment as you're getting treatment. And then, you know, the different ways to treatment treatment, and you really begin to break this all down, and then, you know, Reids resetting your expectations what to do and how to keep going. So it's really it's fabulous. It's a fabulous book, and I really can't recommend it highly enough. I'm touched. That's, that's an amazing explanation of the book. I thank you so much. You're welcome. You can tell that this. I get this, you know, lime disease is kind of on the edge right now where five years ago. And you've you've been here long enough that it was just one of those fringe diagnosis things. And now there's enough attention that it's -tracting the kind of the second generation and the people who wanna get in on the, the gray. Train so to speak. Right. So that a lot of people throwing their hats into the ring with say half baked, but they don't have the full understanding of the disease yet. They've got some good ideas that good people, but it's incomplete and you clearly have probably closer patient to right at and been through really time. You really see. Everything that's connected to it. It really. So I'm, I'm glad you you're you're able to hear my compliment that take it in because it's sear. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I'm gonna I'm gonna keep you all keep this on tape. So when I'm having a bad day, I'll just be like, okay, here you go. Outlay this back. Lovely to hear. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. Aurora clip it for you. We'll send it along. My positive affirmation. Well, we all I just heard a story as somebody who's kept a treasure chest of thank you notes. And I think that's a we all we all need to do that to be reminded from time to time Dr Greenspan you've been incredibly generous with your time. And thank you for all the time and effort, putting your book together, it's going to help a lot of people. For taking the time to speak with me pre-stated. Thanks burned biting me on your show. This was a great episode. And you know, it really struck me especially when she was talking about setting boundaries that your habits really mean to changing as soon as you realize you're sick like the things that you've been doing that. You've can do without thinking, or kind of those maybe kind of self destructive habits that, you know, you can kind of get away with when you're mostly feeling. Well, they suddenly doesn't work anymore, especially when you have nothing left to give and suddenly you're civil year, it's like those damages become very apparent. A researcher named Carol Dwekat believe the she was at a university of Pennsylvania, but one hundred percent sure anyway, she did a lot of work on something called growth mindset, as opposed to a fixed mindset and had two young students and. Sometimes older students is well dealing with new information, but kind of like middle-age middle-aged our middle school aged students, and basically the students who love the grind so to speak who were praised for doing hard work in working hard in the long run were more successful because when they hit a challenge they kept on going, and healing is the same ways you need to develop a healing mindset, and that's critical. If you don't have a healing mindset all the antibiotics, and probiotics and nutraceutical 's and herbs in the world are not gonna get you better. It's you're gonna hit a roadblock and you will self destruct, you will fall apart something will happen, the most important thing that you can do is healing mindset. And that includes all the things Dr Greenspan talked about the boundaries that habits to reassess. And to know that you're not going to be perfect doing it. That's part of having a healing mindset is with not about perfection. It's about keeping going in the face of setbacks. That's the most important thing and guarantee you with lime disease and all the co-infections all the things you're gonna have setbacks just part of the nature of it. It's part of the roadmap late not to be surprised when setbacks happen. Speaking of the roadmap we told you how to get it. Go ahead over to lime ninja radio dot com. You'll see a button, there that says Lyman extras or at the menu at the top. It'll say extras click on that you'll see another link for it the lime journey roadmap and that will begin to help you map out what to do. So when you do hit a roadblock, you know what to do next is not the end of the world. So that your current protocol doesn't work. No big deal. You've got planned be right there. And the other thing allows you do go on information diet. We need to whole f. Episode on this there. He's field. They're much, much information out there. And you think consume it for five years? And you're listening to this podcast. You're overwhelm things like this podcast. And more, I'm talking about people selling things rather than sharing information. But even sharing information. Everybody's gonna opinion about the protocol that you're on. The only one who knows whether it's right or not for you. Is you and your body. You're going to feel better. You're not. And I love Dr wink methods give give it about three months. If you're three months in and it's not working, there's the time to begin to consider. Okay. Let's pull the plug and move on to plan B. That's why you need a plan b but you don't need CD f g h I you don't need to know eight thousand things you don't need to spend hours or days or weeks, researching something that you can't get to either because it's illegal in the state, you're in or because it's a sixty thousand dollar residential program in Germany, and your own food stamps, right? Like, let's, let's have a reality check here with the roadmap or if your heart set on getting that sixty thousand dollar German residential program making it up. I don't know what it really is. Then Howard going to get the money, right? How you going to raise the money there? Whether as a will there's a way. But put that plan together in place. That's part of your roadmap. That's part of your journey. That's truly what you wanna do. That's the next phase that you wanna do great. Go for it, but let's get organized about this. Let's get organiz out say be a little bit realistic. But if you need a big dream like who's me who am. I, I'm just a whole schmucks with Mike. To schmos with Mike. Speaking of schmos, if you like what we're doing here at ninja radio hit the subscribe button on your podcast at that way you won't miss any of this fantastic info. And if you really like what we're doing leave us a review on your podcast app. It really helps us reach more people like you. Yes, thank you. We've gotten two new reviews since we started begging for them, so we're going to continue to beg. Can we get it up to three this week? So please, please. Please head on over to tunes spend a moment. If you've got it on your phone, it's just that the bottom of the app there hit review at least hit the stars that's super easy. And if you have the brainpower, go ahead write a couple sentences for as we'd really appreciate it. Also, do you have any feedback suggestions for guests really anything, sending Email to feedback at wine ninja radio dot com? And last as you longtime lime niches. No, this podcast would not be complete unless we left you with the lime ninja factor. The day. Dave, you now last week, an injured got pulled over in Columbus, Ohio for doing fifty in thirty mph zone, but since he wasn't an car, they had to give him a ticket for jaywalking. Radio's purely public broadcast and is not intended to be personalized medical bites any individuals specific situation each individual his medical situations, unique and Limy radio should not be relied upon Endro considered as personalized medical advice on into radio's not licensed render medical and should be considered. Simply the public opinion of line, ninja radio and its guests recommendations on specific treatment options are not intended to address any listeners particular, medical situation, as always contact your physician before considering any new treatment.
Tuesday 6/18/19 - Lyme Disease W/ Chiefs Mom Part II
"I've been back today. Today's Tuesday, June eighteenth dog walks. So if you're listening yesterday, you heard us talking about Lyme disease with chief and chiefs mom. So this is part two. So if you're gonna listen, apart one stop this, listen. Apar- one real quick. Hop back in partout. Let's get right to it, but she's moms talking about Lyme disease. I had full testing like I don't believe in guessing right like get everything tested. I had all my nutritional deficiencies tested. I was fully tested so that you can support your immune system with supplements, and the things that you're deficient in to, to give your body's immune system. The best chance to fight it, along with the antibiotics zurture as natural as possible. Right. And you know the there's also thing called the lime diet, which I also route a lime done to like the Atkins diet or. I guess it could be a derivative of that. But it's more vegetable that, but it's no sugar. No grains, you know, get your inflammation down nothing fried nothing. You know, you wanna bring down your inflammation, because that also helps with your symptoms, right? You're not a sore. If you're not is inflamed. How long did you take the antibiotics for lung weather's us like this is the Turkey part that people don't want to talk about. But I did it for two and a half years saw. Yeah. Towards like I would like a pill or like what are you? Okay. Yeah. But some people have I actually had a friend who did a port a chest port and did IV antibiotics because she was so she just felt so she just couldn't mount, a response to it and get over it. So how often were you take a day like nine day? Once a day, I do it. I think it was twice a day. I did it twice a day morning and night for, you know, like I said, I'd do it for two weeks or four weeks. And then I take a break, and then I, you know, be doing probiotics and all different things to help build up my own body. And then when I'd start to feel the, the symptoms coming back. I'd go back on them. And then after about two and a half years when I was taking a break, I was like, oh, okay. I'm not feeling those symptoms rearing their ugly head. Again, I'm feeling better. I'm know doing better because incurable right? Is that correct? It's, it's never leaves completely nets. You know, depending on who you read and what you read so now they yeah. Lime. Okay, I'm approved doctors. What are they saying? Lime. Literate literates are. Yes. So they will say that you, you can there's no definitive evidence, yet whether or not you do because they don't have a test to test for that specific spire Keat to see if it's still in your blood. But if it's going by symptoms, you can kind of tell whether or not you're better than I anyone. Who's had it will. We'll say, oh, I'm better. Right. They can tell the difference, so. Yeah. The so that, that's the thing that I mean, I wish they'd make progress on the testing. But we there has been more of. Unification in the world of people who they there was lime disease the cute, which was like, that's the bull's eye rash. You go to the doctor you get on the Mets for two weeks. Fine. Then there was what they called chronic Lyme, which would have technically been something like I had. But now they've termed it something post treatment Lyme syndrome where you still have the symptoms. Even though you've been treated, you know, it's like, you know, it depends on which camp, you are in and what you read, but I think a lot of the patients that have the post treatment line syndrome. So now is that too, you're saying, there's two kinds, or they think there's two kinds or no okay? It's one spire Keaton one pathogen that that causes it. But it's just whether or not you catch it early and treat it. Okay, okay. Okay. And hopefully get rid of it, but it and if you don't then it's obviously, spread more threat because they, they so it's like I have a bite Mona doctor the next day. The doctor says, okay. You that's a lie. That's a deer tick bite, and you get the antibiotics and then you're good after two weeks theoretically, a lot of people catch it early catch it. That's the best chance for quick recovery. Okay. Okay. Okay. So, but some people still do that, and still don't okay recover after just two weeks of antibiotic. Yeah. I went to I went to an infectious disease guy in Connecticut to who didn't really do much for me there. And yeah it's just it's because they he believed. Well, if you've been on the antibiotics for two weeks, you're good. I was like, okay, but it's been a year and a half and I still feel terrible. I guess this is the point where you are. You're not from Connecticut, but you spent you've lived there for a lot of your actually. Oh, yeah. Rank up there up there. Not a kit. I've just looking at a map beforehand. They are like the one of the most whole east coast kind of looks like the most at risk of ticks. I guess that's fair to say is that that's just what I like there was a little portions of it looked like Minnesota and Wisconsin. And then it just looked like the whole east coast was, like, like it was like blacked out at said like a really high risk. Yes. At that is, I think that's what's commonly believed. It really is everywhere in the country, and in the world now, I read something that it's like becoming very prevalent in China to his it is, as a matter of fact, there's a doctor over here that they've summoned to China, who had Lyme disease himself. And he was going to meet with the government and talk about because it's such a huge problem because their population is so big in percentage. That's affected. And how are they going to do this? Right. And it's to be transmitted more than one way, right? Well, and again is controversial some people say it's only tick bite, and that's it. Some people say it can be from a mosquito because a mosquito can by the deer. And I did. And then bite you. I mean, but that the as far as science today goes, the only thing that they verify is the tech. Okay. Well, that's what I was gonna ask, because there been like this war on ticks yet because I mean you look at mosquitoes in West Nile, and Zeka. I mean, I feel like those much more than this ticks, and Lyme disease are wait by ten full. Well, and they said last year, the CDC the CDC came out and said, three hundred thousand new cases of Lyme, where reported, and those are the ones that were diagnosed and reported. Right. So how many weren't diagnosed in how many weren't reported Yale is still involved in research for it, which is great Johns Hopkins is joining the fight for it. I'm not sure if Stanford I think Stanford was doing something at some point. But, but anyway, at least, you know, I think we're getting people are starting to take it more. Asli and more. Doctors are starting to recognize it and starting to diagnose it earlier. And the so for as far as the testing goes, though, I wanted to get back to this, I had this other tests that we paid for privately. It's not covered by insurance. It's and that's part of the problem. With one I'm lot of the treatment, isn't covered by insurance, but it called an eye jenex test, and it's a lab out from California. So you go in have your blood take and you send it to California. And then it's a more sensitive test, so it picks up the, the lime in your system. More easily than the, the other shoe tests that are recommended by the CDC, so those tests, that are not as sensitive, you might come up negative on. But the I genetics test is, is a broader spectrum test. So it will pick it up. And I did I did test positive for that, genetic test on many bands that I did not on the other tip. So as worth it to go through this other doctor that wasn't covered and everything. Because they're really gave you answers. You're searching for. Yeah. Plus, he did that whole full nutritional testing right, like my vitamin d level, which is always a lot of people live in the north is they usually have low vitamin d that's like a commonly known thing, and my level was less. They unsigned ten like it only tests. The blood tests are only sensitive down to a point of ten am I was less than like I had no vitamin d I had no v b twelve I had. No. I mean, I just was depleted in so many ways, but vitamin d is a is a good immune modulator. Right. So you're kind of going through it because your body's trying to fight this pathogen so it depletes your immune system and a lot of your nutritional, you get a lot of nutritional deficiencies just because your body's trying to overcome this pathogen, or go real quick. Let's stop for one second to talk about. JP. Grozny janas. Right. I mean you just can't stop talking about it your visit last week or so good. I love a good sandwich. That was the best thing, which I've had in a long time. What was your what meat, did you feel was the most? Cut poor Kette. He has the wriggle on there. It's great crusty bread. It was it was phenomenal. Italians do a good job of. They that guy knows his way around a kitchen way round sandwich for shark. There you go. All right. JP Graziano was going to GP auto dot com. Order online, or for pickup or online, and you can pick it up organ it delivered 'cause enter the code dog walk you get ten percent off. And then when you get there or if you order in to say, Eddie sent you at the window when you're paying MRs g at the extra punch, you'll get that free sub a little sooner with the extra punch because Chicago dog walk sent you. So yeah, go check it out. JP Graziano bus sub in the city. And were you ever able to connect the dots as find out where you got bit? I doubt you still don't I still don't. I did get that rash. But when I went to the time where you living here. No, I was before. It was before. There are here. Yeah. But. Yeah. As a matter of fact, the doctor that I went to he had tired about being scared of getting it. He had a patient, who would come out to the suburbs to see him, who was from the city of Chicago lived in the city of Chicago for twenty five years, and never really was like a country girl or whatever. But she had it so there's, there's all kinds of eary's about how it can be transmitted. And we I saw because that's how regionally came on my radar because I went to school. So I had a lot of buddies who like the hunt net. Always see them going into the woods on hot days in a long long sleeved clothes. And like what are you, what are you doing hunting gear? That's so like you know, covered and they I was kinda became aware of ticks. But then, as I told you I was doing research was sixty nine percent of tick bites are estimated happening. Residencies really. But, and then I read more into it to the house. Yeah, I read more into it, but it's more like your backyard shrugs. So it's not like inside. Mccollough get. That's just like this is no joke that this is not even people who worry about, you know, you're not gonna save anywhere. Yeah, the Waisman. Holy cow. I mean, maybe in the city here ain't you know, New York, you might have to move to New York to get away from these things. Let's go to like, Alaska. We're, I don't even know where they have it in Alaska to in article. I don't know. I don't know if there's been any reported cases in Alaska. Honestly, I don't know them, but, but the frigid temperatures don't kill texts. So people think, oh, it's winter. I can't get it. But you still can't because there are still takes out in the in the winter. So I just don't know. I don't know so two and a half years ago by shoe finally start to feel better. And what's, what's life like now? Like are you I feel like I'm back to normal only do? So I mean, I feel I'm one of the fortunate ones I'm very grateful for that because I've a lot of people struggle for many, many many, many years in relapse. And, and I I, not on what I haven't done that. But I, I am careful with right. I'm careful with you know I still maintain the lime diet. And I, I make sure my nutritionally replete, I make sure I'm, you know, well and shoot spends like ridiculous amounts of money on supplements. Like that's right do but I feel every time over there there's like box Amazon box is nothing but supplements. Yeah, yeah, can't deny the but the but I do get tested. So I see where you know. Okay, I'm a little low in this. I gotta get my new then because you, you can't just start popping things because you don't know how it's going to affect you and you don't know if you needed or not needed it, and you can overdo even vitamins, so have you ever strayed away from anything, though, like, is there any? You couldn't just kick out of your diet. Obviously everyone's got kind of like a guilty. Pleasure, something not married. No. Well, I will say that it was a it was a process. Right. I had to I had to learn I always cooked pretty much from scratch, but I had to, like learn a different way of cooking to not fed all the delicious things from growing up, whether it's spaghetti carbonara or my mom used to make the best chocolate chip cookies, all like all the things that I like remember in love for my childhood erase from the menu because disappears gone really. So not even like thanksgiving. You know, I got us piece of pumpkin pie. And I'll be rush. She won't do that. I make it no sugar. No grains. Okay. So you'll just it's altered all replacement like you know, Ryan always loved apple pie apple, Chris. So I do make like an apple Chris. But I'll make it with no sugar. That's actually pretty good. Now. Yeah. And I'm making, you know, with interesting to, like I don't I mean, obviously next time you're in bringing all the replacing foods. But it'd be interesting to see if you would really feel like crap, if you ever straight off. I don't know. I mean you've had like you have negative reactions to anything. That's got Wieder sugar in it now. Right. I mean I mean I don't I, maybe I, I don't know. I haven't had it in so long. Okay. I really haven't completely three sixty five like, you know. No. Really? Yeah. Wow. That's I don't. I mean, that's it's mart. I mean that sounds like you really like took this thing had on a you. I bet that has a direct correlation to how you feel great right now. I would say hope so I think that's it. But, you know, I also I was be a bummer if it was all for nothing. Oh, I might food. So I hope so too. Yeah. But I started reading a lot of books at an I read every book I could get my hands on online, not only on that. But on different types of diets, I read about vegan diets and vegetarian diets, and because I really didn't know anything I just ate, the standard American diet, and which I also fed to my kids sorry. But and you know, sometimes it doesn't necessarily show on the outside, but you could be having things on the inside. But you know that are leading to problems. So, so I did a lot. I probably read one hundred bucks on different things, and, and that really kind of settled like the science is kind of in about, no grains, no sugar especially sugar. Sure a lot of things speed off the sugar and your body, so and, you know, alcohol, right. No, no Drake in at all. No. Okay. This is Mary sunshine. She was never really drinking, so that one. Oh my one sip of red wine at Christmas is now gone. It's a race. Yeah. But just crazy eleven years ago. Your life is kinda completely changed. I remember sitting at the doctors at the, the lime literate doctor. And I said, and he's like, okay, you know, I think we can help you will do this, this, you know, giving me the steps, and I said, I said, I hope you can because I feel like this is robbing me of my life. I it really it was. And I feel that's what you hear over and over and over again from line patients, like it really robs them of their their daily existence. The a lot of people have lost jobs, because they can't we'll do you know Averill LeVine. She had very badly. Yeah, I heard you died of it. There's a rumor that there's an impostor me. All right. Yeah, it is next week on dog walk. Yeah. Yeah. Over that. It's great. Oh, yeah. So she had it there. There have been several celebrities now that have come out. So, of course, whenever they come out, then it's helps all credibility for whatever reason average Joe like myself. Now, you're Chicago dog Y. Yeah. Now, we're Megan awareness happen. Right. Whatever those Marietta of so many no cards. But getting near the end, but it gets it gets whatever you want to get to, and all right. We will keep enroll report. We'll roll honesty because I wanna make sure I you know, I asked so many questions I feel badly. Ah. We covered a lot of it. But so I wanna talk about the prevention part too, because that's really important. So us like a good natural bug repellent, when you go out and you know where your socks up over your pants you look like a dork, but dress, dress inert, right? V safe, you know, and, and then also when you when you come back inside, then, you know, get shower and, you know, inspect your body because especially the, the nymphs they call them, they're, they're the springtime techs. They're like the size of a poppy seed. I mean you could think it's freckle. Well. Wouldn't even know hundreds of Brian how Irish you're right. Right, exactly. So just, you know, rub yourself down, and, you know prevention I think we'll go a long way, which I never did any of that. Then you, you also. Oh, sorry. So, and then the removal of the ticket, if you do if you do find one, you gotta be really careful on how you remove the tech, you want to disinfect the area around it, you want to not squeeze it and the belly because they feel that, that's where the bacteria lives in the gut of the tech shooting and into your skin like a syringe of you that exactly. Exactly. So you want to try to get it out is close to the head as possible, and they even have tic removers, but if you don't happen to one of those, you just get like a, a fine needle find, what are the users tweezers? Yeah. And you pull it out, and then you put it in a bag. Don't throw it away. Put it in a bag. You can bring it to your doctor's office. They'll, they'll send it in for you to get tested to see if it has the, the spire Keats in it. Okay. So that is good. And then if some, some doctors will start you prophylactically on the antibiotics until you until they get the results back from the tech just to be safe just to be on the south side. But so that, you know, and then you want to disinfect it again after you get it out. But try not to throw it away. Try to save it in a bag and trying to kill it. Don't squeeze it. You know, you wanna just kinda keep intact as you can. That's people know you always hear like don't kill a Roach. Right. Because it's the kill the babies. The baby's lavar I know I hear what you're saying. No. I never heard that you've never heard someone said like, don't kill a Roach, because if it's a mom, the baby's, like might live. And then you got like seventy five babies in your house. Oh, really? Oh, I know. I would have definitely killed him. I lived in a gross I lived in a girls' college house Marianne. Oh, yeah. We, we, we have it was a tough tough Levin. Ooh. College days were rough. Doesn't sound good. Yeah. I think actually we went over pretty much everything on my net cards on testing testing. That's great. Go to the lime litter. Doctor though. I mean. Yeah, no, this is great. I mean prevent I wonder if I did see that they there's a can of spray you could use just for text now. I wonder if they have like a mosquito slash tick, like hybrid because that's the next do you have a I mean, no free ads, but any brands that you think are best. I, I try to use like the non-chemical you can even make them. The recipes online, you can make drain drain essential oil. You can use as a tech repellent. It's a natural tick repellent. I do buy some natural tick repellents, but can't remember the name of them, actually way or something. But it's not just tickets. It's, you know it's mosquito in tech or whatever. But yeah. So I think that if people have something that they can't get a diagnosis on get tested for lying. If you've got that migrating pain if you've got you know, like I said urinary tract symptoms. That's what two people that I knew I said, I don't know. I think you should get tested for lime. Because sounds. Yeah. Wow. Yep. And I, I have a sister to that had she had completely different types of symptoms. And she got tested. She had to she lives in Connecticut. So if you have something that is just a mystery had people can't put their thumb like oh, you have this. It doesn't hurt to get tested a lot. All right. That's right. All right. Thanks so much for doing this Ryan. Thanks for exposing your mom's with the barstool. Thanks. Thanks. We will catch you next time. All right. Thank you. Bye.
#236: Dr. Rob Abbott - Autoimmune Paleo for Lyme
"All the golden calling only juice. It's time for lime ninja radio. Today. Germ radio. The dietary approaches so profound without the community elements without some of these other elements. We wouldn't Nazi as robust of affects both the clinical level the practical things that people are reporting. This podcast is sponsored by the lime ninja symptom tracker. I'm so excited to tell you about our new Lyme niches symptom tracker. One of the things I hear over and over again, whether it's talking to a patient in my office or consulting over the phone with the client is just how difficult it is to keep track of progress on their lime journey recording symptoms daily or even weekly gives them too many data points. There's so many ups and downs twists and turns at some point, they get lost and confused. The lime ninja symptom tracker takes all the guesswork out of tracking symptoms with the simple monthly questionnaire once a month is the perfect interval deceive that new supplement or protocol is working right now, when you take the symptom tracker, questionnaire, we give you a simple composite score for the month, but we had big plans, and the data you enter will not be lost as we roll out new features. Best of all, it's free just head on over the Lyman into radio dot. Dot com slash tracker. And sign up that's lime and enjoy radio dot com slash tracker. You'll be glad you did. Join us every Thursday on I tunes for the latest episode of lime ninja radio. Hello, my name's McKay rookie and this is episode number two hundred thirty six with the medical director of resilient routes. Dr rob Abbett. Also welcome our show producer and the brains behind lime ninja radio. Aurora are Lau. And in this episode you're going to learn three main things the real effect of getting support with lifestyle changes, what effect those lifestyle changes have on your quality of life. And how much autumn Yoon issues can be managed with diet and lifestyle. Thanks ROY, and a big shoutout to all you longtime lime niches. You're the reason we have more than half a million downloads ROY, and I really appreciate you tuning in, and we'd also like to welcome all the new listeners out there. Welcome to lime ninja radio. You're now officially lime ninja, welcome all you. I'm ninjas out there. And as you know, lime disease is an international. Problem each week. We have listeners join you from all over the world and this past week, we've had listeners, tune in from Dublin Teranga, and from San Francisco to New York feel like I should say that in, like a Brooklyn accent. New York will. We'll rewind their worst to Ranga, Australia. Australia cool. Yeah. All right. Tell us a little bit more about this. Week's guest, Dr rob Abbott. He's our good friend. Yes. Rob Abbott is the medical director and functional medicine physician at resilient routes functional and evolutionary medicine in Charlottesville, Virginia. He graduated from the university of Virginia school of medicine in two thousand seventeen and he approaches medicine from an evolutionary, and functional perspective and practices what he calls, spiritually focused and Evelyn narrowly informed, functional medicine that mouthful, and it doesn't make sense until you meet him, so you'll get. Yeah. As soon as you talked him, as like this makes mix all makes sense. Yes. All right. And the reason I'm excited to talk to Dr Abbott today is to really fill in some of the blanks in the three phases of our line journey. Roadmap. And by the way, if you haven't picked that up yet, just go to Lyme ninja radio dot com and click on the extras button, or the extras menu at the top in you'll see a link for that anyway. So what we found after doing. Hundreds of these interview is most people don't have an overall plan. They may have a short term plan, you know, even even maybe six months to year on a protocol, but they don't have an overall plan. And when things go south, and they always go south with Lyme disease, we should probably rename, it southern heading lime disease. I mean just there's always setbacks with lime disease. It's the nature of the beast and won the setbacks happen. Many times, there's no plan B. There's no overarching plan. You don't understand where you are on your map when your journey out of blind disease. And if you had that it wouldn't be so traumatic and so scary so get yourself aligned journey roadmap. Mom ninja rated dot com, click on the button, it's. Free, you'll love it. All right, anyway. So what we're doing is we're organizing our podcasts to support the different phases of your lime journey and basically there are three phases. The first is reboot. The second is resolve and the third is restored its really simple. And when you figure out Lyme disease, or Jetta set back, you need to report and get organized. Maybe you need a budget to handle all the out of pocket expenses. Maybe you need to know exactly what the diagnosis is because you're going down and battleground, then you need to resolve whatever infection you have, whether it's lime all the co-infections, mold parasol recites viruses, if yes, the needs to be resolved. Now, is it cleared? We don't know yet. So maybe it'll be one hundred percent cleared or maybe your body's just back in charge again. And then the final step is to restore if you've been sick for a long time. Um you need to rebuild. And they're funny things like in happen with recovering from being chronically ill. He s- things like repeating syndrome. So you need a strategy to get strong again, and then get back into the workplace it's not as easy as it sounds. And if you're prepared, if you have a map, then you stand biting chance as opposed to just hitting brick walls over and over and over again, you don't want to do that. So this episode with Dr rob Abbott? We're going to talk about a study that he did with an immune diet, protocol, which I think is relevant to almost everybody out there listening and basically, what he's done is study the results, the anti inflammatory effect that this particular diet. And it's really shocking, and you're gonna wanna listen to it. So that part. It really kind of the first phase the prepare phase for the resolve section. So it's phase to step. One is prepare for treatment. And one of the ways you could do that is to reduce the inflammatory load on your body. If you're going to be killing off lots of bacteria and stuff. That's crazy inflammatory, you don't want extra inflammation from your diet, hanging around. Or this could also be kind of the last phase of the restore step, the third step, and the first step there to where you've finally resolved most of your infections, but you're not still feeling great. There's a lot inflammation. Maybe it's an autoimmune sort of thing that's been triggered by these infections. And you need to calm that down. So this could also be are kind of what is it number box? Three six seventh step overall, but the first the first step in the third phase, which is think outside the tick, you know, when you've been sick for a long time. It's not just about the bugs that are inside you. All right. That said there's. Even more. I want to talk about before we get into Roy's giving me the hook. It's like no stop talking. No. But this is really really important. And I want to bring up if you haven't listened to episode number two hundred eleven with Jason Moore. He's the founder of elite H RV and he's got a little gadget if actually on sale now. So you, if, if you've been thinking about getting one, now's a good time to do it, it fits on your finger at hooks up your phone, and it basically tells you how stressed you are. It's called a heart rate, variability read, very ability. It's a great tool in mapping out to recovery, or you moving in the right direction or the wrong direction. Do you need to back off from this treatment a little bit, and slow down the hurt simul thing or can you fight through it? This will give you a lot of good inside. If you're trying to start to exercise again, it's another great way to see how far you can push this particular day. So I highly recommend listening to episode two hundred eleven with Jason more. And if you haven't gone out and get one, I don't get any money from these guys just use it in my practices to great tool. Get the elite HR V finger. Whatever it's called green measuring gadget thing you put on your finger. It's like a pulse ox. Okay. I think I covered everything, and then some I think we did. Let's dive right into our interview with Dr rob at. Doctor, I would walk Milan ninja radio. Hello mckay. It's great to talk to you. You've been up to some interesting things in the world of, well, you know, we shouldn't call it alternative medicine, it should just be called medicine. It's definitely medicine. It should just be called us actually protocol healing than empowerment, nejra -cation in a lot of things. But yeah, it should definitely be called Jana. You've been working with a group of, I'm gonna call them paleo people, and that's the paleo diet, but a specific it ration- of that an autoimmune protocol, but also that ties in the support aspect of things and the education aspect of things. It's not just simply switching your diet, what you studied was. And at this alternative that we go again with that word the word the turn of approach or comprehensive or holistic approach or just maybe an effective approach to, to helping people get in front of their immune systems. So what can you tell us about that? Yes. We've if full. I have listened to the son of the conversations we've had before your puck as we've talked about some of these concepts immune system flexibility metabolic flexibility with a lot of issues coming back to disruptions of the new system, whether it's autumn Unity's cancer other, it's chronic multi, pathogenic infections is a lot of issues with the immune system. And so in super lucky to have started a partnership with a group at auto wellness between Angie, all Mickey trescott, who have been doing wonderful work in greater auto means face bringing or resources to help individuals utilize it dietary approach to try to dress or immune disease. And it's known the dietary principles they've employed or known as the autoimmune paleo article, or a IP in that was sort of born out of a very deep dive in lurch, mainly after Sarah Vale, Allen signs, look at principles of. Foods and their potential individuality to the valley into the new system. And also how certain foods interact with go back volume as well as the gut barrier, disrupted technology, but used a lot principles to develop a limitation diets that would try to remove foods with minimal nutrient Cassidy, and with greater just any in through that hopefully, help people who had automated diseases, or other disorders of immune dysregulation. This is probably been this all very new in. This is really just been happening the last six seven years. And this was kind of an outgrowth of the in central halio who've been, so this dietary approaches, pedals sub domain of the paleo diet, but I actually interpreted his composition, but I also like to think of it as its own independent dietary approach is, it's been utilized outside of halio movements. And in our clinic in another clinical settings. The sea states besides just on indices, folks with cancer, another immune dysregulation tissues, but it's been an iterative process. And there's been a lot of clinical echo evidence amounts this dietary approach being very helpful for folks. And there was even an initial study done back in two thousand seventeen with doctor Dr Gorka jetty out of the scripts clinic in San Diego. Looking at this dietary approach in sort of other lifestyle, interventions as part of that, and individuals with inflammatory bowel disease, and they sell some pretty amazing results. It was a single arm pilot of no control group. But nonetheless, like seventy three percent of the individuals had clinical remission of soda. Subjective and objective prevents from colonoscopy dusky in those made some pretty big waves integrator of social community. Attention. At the time, push me further to build this relationship with engine auditing wellness in the seek out how could we do more rigorous sites about this dietary protein, but also building in recognizing that a single diet will never be the answer? We need other aspects Hewlett, too. Of the lifestyle approach in me in clinic moderating. And right now you've realize nickel eight elements which looks at a different domains of a lifestyle foundation. So whether that stress sleep wisdom practice play commute engagement time in nature. All these things are critical. And so we wanted to also study that just the principles of the diet, but also insert different education and therapies in these domains all within a community setting because he ring isolation is really hard. If you have to do it all yourself, even with a wreck Kitchener guiding you give me really, really hard. So we really wanted to study the combination of all of these things not to scientists perspective to Jerry, lots of confounding Yuccas. What is things going on? Probably can't say what did what but to criticize realistic real world study, which you could apply pre broadly rather than doing something in a. Silly hospital setting giving everyone food and controlling curly's variables that may not in the NBA applicable to the real world real world setting. So I'll stop there before we have some questions in reflections. Yeah. I've been very fascinated to rigorously study Nike lifestyle interventions because a lot of food research, Diabate search is very poorly done insert retrospective in it was designed to fail. Never find something meaningful. So doing actual interventional studies with multiple components, including Derek, I think is much needed in this greater by medical space. So let us pause there and just go over some basics here. So what's the postage stamp version of paleo diet, the regular paleo? Yes. Oh, journalists, basically, removing grains legumes dairy rely. Yes. So the three main principles, I think about our nutrient density, its ability to stimulate the immune system end. In also foods ability to positively negatively impact the gut microbiome, which is intimately tied to, to the gut barrier. So it's trying to remove foods that have low nutrient density agreed potential to be immuno-genetic immune system, integrator potential to calls, despite our bells gut microbiome in disrupt. Coby got bearing integrity, goes other principals. I mean, the whole idea to ancestral diet is independent of those mechanisms is it's trying to emulate dietary principles that we as a species have been following. So with Aldo scientific approach for thousands of years, we've evolved generations to, to eat. So sensually. It's everything's on the table, except being's right in that all beings, it pretty much pretty much all beans, grains, sale, usually, oh, gluten free, so that's weak. But you're talking oats, retains rice as well as. Yeah. So rices grain. I mean keen wa that you kind of get into kind of the alternative grains, but that kind of covers everything, right there, pumpernickel guess, but that's what that's additive anyway, whatever. Pumpernickel. Is there a political seed? What is pumpernickel Brit anyway? Yeah. But so. Right. So any basically any type of bread pizza crust cereals that come in box that, that sort of thing, and then dairies always kind of an interesting one. But there are some people genetically don't deal. Well with the, the lactose, and then, as you said, it can have some, some reactivity can be the, the calls of some auto immunity, and then so that segues into that's paleo. And then auto immune paleo is even more restrictive in that you take out some other foods that can be reactive eggs, his one, right? What else are kinda the highly reactive foods as executive nuts with ninety? Certain fruit survey spices to certain spices of removed, the Nightshade family, so things like a plants tomatoes. It's associated spices paprika that chili powder. Those things are are removed. Those are the main things. I mean, some of the other things that people would still could argue should have been on the paleo diet to begin with, but may be included things like coffee, a couch, you're technically legumes, but sometimes they are included in router, paleo, typically, those things are removed on a P and then, also it's the Elsa try to remove a century, any sort of multiplying agent, additive agents, or anything that could have been derived from a grain. So there's a lot of products in different gums that can be derived from corn products. So in the purest sense, you start to get into the weeds with some of these additives, but in of the basic Forbes, it's yet essentially moving nuts, and seeds eggs, Nightshade. Some of those associated spices great. Now also, let's talk about auto immunity is one of the things that's interesting with lime disease and this compensation still out there is. There's some thinking on researchers and doctors from the traditional side of things. The idea say, said things that the post Lyme syndrome. What they call it is actually an autoimmune disease. And in the beginning, I thought all of these guys are just not. They're trying to dodge the bullet in terms of the infection persists. But just because you have wine doesn't make you Munich from also developing an autoimmune disease in fact, if you're chronically inflamed from something like lime you're actually more likely to develop in addition to lime in autoimmune component as well. And so you brief again, really briefly. Because we could spend weeks. Socking autumn unity is briefly talk about what an autoimmune responses, and then what are some of the common named autoimmune diseases that people come up against? Yes, I Don unity can be thought of, in a lot of different ways. But essentially, it's reactively towards self tissue and the main self L F not soft. Yeah, wreck. Yeah. Reactively to, to self and the term. That's most commonly used in immunology is concept tolerance. So essentially, your body in order to be able to recognize what's foreign needs to be able to recognize self but recognition is not the same thing as reacting to. So there's a whole cascade of things as certain lymphocytes, so B cells T cells different Munich cells, as they develop, we have a very intricate set of processes for them to be able to recognize south. Not react to in certain cells in that developing process, or reactive to self or don't recognize it. Then they are typically go through a killed off. They don't go past the checkpoint. So you're trying to basically make him Yun cells that don't react to sell. So sometimes overlooked, that we recognize. Yeah, of course, we need to be able to respond recognize things that are foreign. But in order to do that. We have to know it self looks like so one of the things that can go wrong is when there's high degree of immune stimulation or the types of installation, you can sort of inadvertently start reacting to sell either because self looks a lot like a foreign elements, which is a content cold molecular mimicry. You can also have. It's called bystander affect, or essentially, you as a result attending response to inappropriate for agent of inadvertently, damaged self tissue in. That's still kind of thought it was an auto immune phenomenon. But yeah, you can think about a lot of different ways. But essentially, it's a loss of tolerance in the body's immune system, essentially, directing resources interview towards self tissue damaging soft tissue in instead of recognizing itself, and not reacting in this. Why spectrum and you know we thought about other other ways as well, but some of the most common disease states or hushing, does that resided switches, the disease state that we studied auto thyroid disease, multiple sclerosis, rheumatoid arthritis lupus. It's quite fascinating to see the number of diseases that fall under this category. But it's also fascinating to see that in traditional medicine, we loves a sufficiently so that don't actually recognize the overlap between different diseases. So even. Multiple sclerosis might affect Mylan in the central nervous system. We see that as complete distinct entity for return greatest, which isn't disease affecting joints, in Snowville tissue. So, but from a functional perspective, we're like, no, those aren't like completely separate things. Shouldn't be approach with radically different drugs or therapies. We recognize that, you know, for me to develop there has to be disruption of the ecosystem area. There has to be in America. It'll severe mental triggers in there has to be some kind of genetic predisposition for your for your immune system to the over overly reactive react to something. Appropriate way. You look at it from that lens, you're like, oh, wow. You know, these seasons are not all like -pletely different things. We shouldn't just have radically different approaches. So hopefully that a little bit overview of what areas where some of the common immune diseases and how action functional medicine were playing slightly different lands. We don't get stuck in a myopic view of this disease, this disease this season as not see that they're actually somewhat interrelated, and where does the gut how's the gut tired this altogether? Yes, I was come back to the concept. Hit to think about barrier integrity in people probably familiar with the gut barrier. But any barrier is at play. And so the most basic unit of the cell has arear has a cell membrane. That's what makes us sell sell. It's organized, it's like a home has different rooms in the health and has different ways to keep the components of one room in the room. It's supposed to be in so it functions. We have different organisms, like a country into plastic ridiculing. The goal has we have all these things in organization, the cell that keeps things in one area that need to be another keeps other things that don't need to be there L, if you didn't have this selective permeability these trans channels in, I force and things in how these ways to maintain a barrier that wouldn't be a sale, it would just love to be or residual structure. So the way that the by regulates essentially existence is having. Barriers having ways to maintain a membrane. And so the gut is probably the most well understood and recognize barrier to the external world essentially the gun is the berry with the outside world, we don't think if it because it's inside his, but the Lumina the good where you've eaten food in its straddling through that still the external world. So we have to maintain a very strict and selective selectively permeable environments, which will require immune cells to be on the barrier, as recognizing and Saint link from that external to see. Is this something I need to respond to, and, you know, being able to deal with any sort of environmental, toxins in a way, that's is mentally detrimental to the organism. And so if things go wrong the barrier, it's going to cause problems there quickly. So if you lose that selective ability things can get into the bloodstream things you will come to the, the liver, depending on how it's. You're gonna get things in a location that it shouldn't, and the immune system, actually is going to appropriate appropriately. Responding me. Like, what the heck is this? And why is it here? And then we have, you know, using years of evolution that's adapted different aspects of the immune system, the adaptive in the eight different ways to handle different types of insults. But within all that complexity there, still the fact that every actor thing. So I always tell people, you know, we think about our new diseases like immune systems doing something wrong now at some sense, it's not it probably started doing something. Right. Is doing a lot of things right? But then there's enough similarity whether into that molecular mimicry mechanism or there's enough of a stimulus. And you'll also very integrity that things got a control, but we have to be able to control. Health things are presented to the barrier is so permeable that things just get into bloodstream immune system has to do something as a start from response, probably overly aggressive. And then, that's when genetically subtle individual, you can start potentially responding to afford that also responding to a cell phone. So I mean, a gut is just such an gut microbiome is such a great communicator to the immune system. We, it's so new, but, you know, the, the health of the my own and we still trying to figure out what caused it if it was lives was to call relationship association, the cummick Ryan, that gut bacteria viruses, ecosystem, there is communicating directly with our immune system in Britain bringing out, potentially tolerance to the organisms, themselves, organisms, as there's a probation of that ecosystem you're gonna probably set someone else up to have potentially aberrant immune response lead to automated element. So yeah, I mean God is just like you could tougher weeks accused about this topic too. But it's so critical in the early development propagation of autoimmune disease. Learnt recently is the immune system kinda has lots of what I want wanna say barriers safety mechanisms. So it takes multiple stimulations really to get things wrapped up in cranked up, and one of those things that the immune systems looking for is inflammation and tissue damage. Yes. So we know in what you're talking about there, your guts, inflamed, because of earlier sensitivities to gluten, or two grains, or two beans, or to dairy that there's the good chance at it's going to crank up your immune system when it's cranked, it's less selective as to what it's going to destroy saying, okay, things are getting dangerous. Let's we're not going to use the polite. Police force anymore. We're gonna bring out the swat team and we're not going to. Swat team anymore. We're gonna bring out, you know, the regular troops just just go after things. And it strikes me that not only do we have this gut component that seems to be big part of Lyme disease. Many people who have lime disease also have got issues. And if you start getting into despite so if you've been on years of antibiotics Reno, your gut is despite. Right. It's been disturbed some degree and would be vulnerable to overgrowth whether to yeast overgrowth, or just a a, the Bali wanna say the proportion of Beker that there before may tilt one way or another, causing inflammation and damage or like mentioned earlier the CBO small tests about growth the start creeping up into the small tests, where they don't really belong because they were very lent a maybe because there's too much sugar coming down the pike in, in being fed that way. But then it also strikes me, you get something like Lyme disease. He put that layer on top. And if you've got chronically infected and inflamed damage joints, that's gonna fire things up. If you have damaged tissue in other places in the body, whether it's your neurological system or, you know, some people have heart damage from Lyme disease literally, the worms to arms. Aspire Keats burrowing in their causing tissue damage that can begin a small area, then cascade outward. So this whole idea that's why I wanted to really get into the nuts and bolts in the nitty gritty with you about this auto immune protocol this type of diet, where you're really eliminating most things that can cause irritation may be critical for some of those people out there with lime disease, who are struggling with the inflammation in the overreaction of their music. They can't quite get things calmed down, the can't get rid of the information that's causing all the pain in all the damage and part of that may be the condition through cuts in and it's important to remember that. It's a moving target. It's a dynamic system. So what worked for you a year ago, may not be working because the conditions of change. Whether again, you've been on a new item botic or. Or a new protocol, or even may be overdid things on the table side. Things too, though. It's this whole idea of information and layered causations, leading to dysregulation dais regulation. And then once as you said, once the immune system recognizes self tissue as a pathogen it you've got the memory cells. It never goes away. The you can manage autoimmune condition but you can never cure it because the it's like a bad memory, the immune system is going to hold onto that protein and that, that pattern and never let it go. Those memory cells B memory cells just do not go away ever. And so you're always going to be sensitive. Now, the question is can you get the machinery? Turned off or quieted down. So it's not active. So it's the sentinel is there but he's not sounding the alarm. Yeah. And that's all to this idea of the occult, the terrain, we've talked about it before podcast, ecosystem, the train in potential triggers completely agree with you that a lot of these things are additives, who just when it comes to triggering events and to stimuli. So it's one of the hardest things to try to want people to be able to get the wrong impression that, you know, these foods are bad foods, slow being good bad about context, the. The. My favorite things to say when people come in the door this what about this? There's probably only one bad food in the world in its twinkie. The rest of it. The rest of it has some value to it or not, just like you, exactly like you're saying, whether or not it's good for you and good for you at this time 'cause what's good for you. As a for some people who do. Well, dare you know, it's like great. But later on in life. It's not so great other people, you know, they're the dairy queens. Right. You know, they can have butter and milk in thrive, and be completely healthy and other people that just sends them to the toilet for three days. Like if melt put you on the toilet for thirty days on through milk. Your body giant tell you something, right? Yeah. Acapulco degree. It's all about context since a hate the words really good at that. The game is it is so simplistically don't get the nuance of things really mean and so these aren't all together as quoted that food. It's all about context in potentially. They could be source of irritation or in the setting of disrupted guts in barrier integrity, then they become. Problem if that was coolly sign, maybe they don't cause an issue for you. So, you know, trying to get away from seeing these foods as the causes of autumn unity. That's not that's not the case is confusing causation in therapy. But they could potentially be stimulatory in causing shoot in the wrong context, because yes, things are additive also think of the threshold effect, you want your certain social than you lose tolerance than you've probably will release a 'cascade of immune reactively that will be hard to control in so. I just want to make sure people understand that cabinet and also recognized you even though this diet is called the auditing protocol, when set up into this point. It's really approach for immune dysregulation. So any kind of credit chronic inflammatory disease state that employs really major component of being Munis relation with chronic Lyme disease, cry multi pathogenic, infection, cancer, potentially be very helpful because of the digital mechanisms of increasing nutrient density, helping rebalance the gut ecosystem, helping to rebuild the barrier, and minimizing during that ration- the potential immune load or disrupting chemicals foods, what have you on the gun, the immune system. So, yeah, I think if sometimes you but a name on something has a label which will think about medicine, you know, antidepressants are used for a million things, Texas. Eighty depressants of we should recognize take the ritual medicines medicine had a mechanism. Just because it's called, so he doesn't mean it can't be applicable to other disease, states. When we think things from the functional level. Thanks for saying that so beautifully, also, I want to start out the pocket saying what we've got this multi disciplinary approach to automation disease and it's not all about that. And we spent the last thirty minutes talking nothing about the diet. So what, what were the other portions the other components of this intervention? And how do you see those applying really anybody dealing with a health challenge? Yes. So essentially, what we studied specifically was a combined intervention that utilize something called these sad to said standing for standard American diet to AARP, and six program that was being created by NGO alz, one of the women arguing wellness wanna make great friends and colleagues, and this particular program was utilizing the initial Idi a peace city, but this program is an online group health coaching program that walked people through a phased elimination of the diet, basically starting or wherever they start from which could be sad. It could be paleo but walks in through week by week of her six week period. So that by the end of week six, they have implemented, full AIP during that time they're getting education to each day, has its own elements of education, about sleep hygiene, about ways to begin maybe meditation practice, or dress stress management, or address, potentially d. Victimized that can come with chronic disease. There's so much embedded education time being able to get nature. There's also practical education at grocery shopping, building list, meal prep batch cooking. There's so much there in you have this community as well of the dissidents themselves engaging together going through the same time in gave with the health coaches at a summit real time basis. So it's all virtual, but the between Angie and health health coach who participated in this study, another health coaches, you utilizes when she runs this program, they're able to give pretty real time feedback to participants in the group setting in it's just honestly, you know, while the dietary approaches so profound without the community elements without some of these other elements. We would not see as robust of affects both on the clinical level, just the practical things that people are reporting. And maybe this thing we can study in, in the future. Is trying to tease out how critical is the community component. So you know what I tell people that he worked with Angie myself, implemented a program with new patients in a direct integrated relationship is having this program is life changing is a game changer. And you can still if you don't do the formal program, you can still implement elements of it by having a health coach and a practitioner team. So that combined, we might clinic work with Ryan whole, who's a virtual nutritionist than we combine our expertise and will soon, be bringing on health coaches, but have been utilizing this program in engines of her coaches expertise in our clinic up to this point, but really recognizing the value of having a health coach to do some of the nitty gritty dirty work of really understanding what dietary the default actually practically do that in your personal setting. And then being able to explore some of the other lifestyle foundations and maximize earlier about we usually called eight elements. Lifestyle foundation. Lifestyle foundational pieces and so, but you have to really build a team integrated team and health coach nutritionist practitioner. I sees the key components. And then really if you can do that in some kind of community setting, whether it's everyone going through the same thing, like in the sad, day, APN, six program, or part of the interest group online report of the local creek line disease community. You gotta have something in the community. That's more than just looking at other people's Instagram's because it's not as not community. Only groups can be did not exactly the same as being in person with people, but eating some something to tap into that community component as well. Hasn't what were the results of the study. Yes. Also, to start with what we was designing what we really wanted to test. What was primary hypothesis? And so people heard about the Santa Abyan six program at this point in what I p is. But we really wanted to do. We want to study a group of women with other municipalities or hushing hushing motives disease in one to see if a ten week program, which was sort of the sad, ta six program plaza for we Canadians pureed could help improve their quality of life and symptom burden. We also sort of had objective markers of Kuby improve thyroid function, and allow people to use less medication as will eventually changing modulating the immune system as measured by a complete blood cell count, may things like white blood cells. And you use and fills as Melissa inflammatory marker, notice, high sensitivity, c reactive protein those real secondary outcomes. But the main thing was could we utilize this multifaceted intervention this ten week program to improve people's quality? Life in symptoms. So what folks did in addition to sort of participating in this program is they were actually able to meet with myself as of a functional practitioner. Week one week six week ten in the beginning to go over their initial blood chemistry results at week six. We actually reviewed some organic acid and stool tests that were provided quite graciously by Genova diagnostics. I sort of exploratory purposes. So I was able to kind of go through those results with people halfway, and give them some food based lifestyle base recommendations, there is no drugs used in trial. Whatever, though, subli- using the trial to ever sell food based will be able to go over some of those tests with him in the middle of the program. The study to be tweak aspects of their diets in a way that would be pitching more beneficial than with, again at the end of the study talking about the final results and things could potentially do going forward. So everyone between that was also kind of on the sidelines interacting in engaging with the health coaches to stay top of will be dealing with and talk with. Participants if they have reactions to things had questioned. So it was very high touch study, very high touch intervention in the main result that we found looking at that primary alkyl was that there were statistical clinically significant changes in qualify in the quality of life measure, that we use was a questionnaire called the SF thirty six which stands for short form, thirty six and it has eight subdivisions so released looking at, you know, general health, that's health emotional health, different physical health parameters like Halley pain. So a lot of different of demands. But every single domain, Sicilian, clinically significant level changed, and that was phenomenal. It was so Mason to see. And we also saw clinically statistically significant change in symptoms, such that they decrease from an average of around ninety on this symptom, questionnaire score, which is like golf high scores not good them. So these folks had complex symptoms across multiple domains domains an average for the group around ninety at the end with around, like twenty. Eight or twenty nine so remarkable decrease. When you looked at some of the individual results, some people went from the scoreline hundred five to seven ninety six to four. I mean just I thought maybe one person might have kind of a remarkable change there, some remarkable changes in every single woman who participated sell decrease in can run off a cliff. Gloss over haunted. We study but it ended up being seventeen person trial. So we had seventeen women between the ages of twenty forty five tried to eliminate the pause menopause. And there were either obese I mean sorry normally or overweight, so BMI less than twenty nine that was also done to try to mitigate a major weight loss that could have occurred in someone who was more abusive complicated the medication dosing during the study, so seventeen women aged between twenty to four five either normally, overweight, and no other active army diseases in with a formal diagnosis of autoimmune fire disease by a medical history or laboratory testing with elevated antibodies, excuse me. So that's of the seventeen women sixteen of them finished the only one who actually didn't finish. She got pregnant weeknight, and she had been previously dealing with infertility issues. So that was a huge win. So I was actually, so happy, essentially everyone who started the study finished. This was a fairly rigorous group. In my normal practice. Even with our clinic with some of the support sources, I'm not seeing one hundred percent of people finish that, it's, it's very rigorous dietary approach in Ular in testing required people, I was really amazed at essentially everyone finish the study and what it came to the thyroid function themselves. We didn't see the group level that any of the thyroid hormone markers, age decreased. Or in the antibodies also didn't have typical or clinically significant change couple caveats with that we actually started off. I didn't know this before the study, I only enrolled, anyone that simply had an abnormal in a body level. Didn't know what the group average would be the beginning. But if anyone's familiar with a thorough peroxidase in the group after the beginning around two hundred which honestly like a three good, I'm used to try to get people like less than three hundred. Listen, four hundred which she started off pretty good. So I wasn't even expecting to see a group change is the short days. Of the study in restarting level. Same thing with the TSE around two, which is actually a pretty good pretty good level. So, so, yeah, what we didn't see things change at the group level six of the thirteen women who finished the study in began it initially on some form of firewood replacement medication were able to decrease their medication either once or twice during the study, period. Seventh person switched from T forty-three combination medication to t- four only by the end of the study, I didn't include his was kind of a gray area, but fifty percent of the women were able to decrease occasion use as resolve this intervention. Couple people saw decreases in TSA that didn't immediately necessarily necessitate a decrease in the kitchen, but I'm guessing they continued with the changes. For more months, they would probably need to be on less Medicare, and that was just so awesome, profound to see in mechanistically weight loss was certainly opponent. As the number one thing us to. Gauge how much education Dr medications needs as someone loses a significant amount of weight. They'll need us -cation, but the people who didn't. Trump's in their T, S H, but didn't lose that much weight or didn't lose weight. All women at no way. So for weight loss in her job, she needed to listen to the case. I think that was from improve absorption occasion aspects of the nutrients city of the diet, other same thing she had big trumpeter, T S H oil, slick three or four pounds. So there was something else going on. I deciding that it had something to do with the absorption start medication increased. Nutrient density, the died aspects of the modulation that gut, but there's some pretty amazing results in those domains lossing say here before the reflections, we actually also a statistically, and clinically significant decrease in that inflammatory marker, the high sensitivity protein in the group added to the beginning was around one point five milligrams per liter which revoked through her familiar, not familiar that marker is typically thought of to be abnormal if it's greater than three. Although if so much. Not acutely sick that worker should be less than one actually real. We should be less point seven five. So the average the beginning was one point five, which told you something's not quite right in even after excluding to women who are acutely sick ahead. Quote, really elevated high sensitivity, are of the fourteen women who finished or not acutely sick included in the final analysis that was thirty thirty percent decrease to round one point one grams per per liter. At the end of the study. And if you took out one woman, he was a pretty significant outlier the initial average would have been Sunday night. One point two four in the final average would have incident, I point eight to actually less than a goal ideal of one milligram per liter. Also would have been thirty percent decrease massive decrease in such a short period of time and to put some of that in context thirty percent decrease on it doesn't seem like much. Well, that's like going from, like gross analogy is like it's going from one point. Five to one point one. We'll put two point eight is like trying to lose the last five pounds. You know, it's not the same as losing the first seven, and that's it's a really gross analogy. But this one I come up with you know, if you're grossly, overweight, essentially making small dietary changes those in the first seven pounds will be pretty easy, but the last five is going to be contained a lot of different potential. We saw Ila CIN ideal Mercker become more ideal at that range by that amount is pretty profound. It wasn't a statistically robust as the marker. So we definitely need to explore this larger populations to see it was this Cisco noise. There was this real fact, but I was really happy to see that in there was even some trends towards decreases in the white blood cell count is well, showing us something was happening here at the mutilation level, and there's even to who started the study with low by blitz accounts that Saul some tennis city. So pouncing there, what blitz counts actually came back up. So the effect of the study or defended. Could have been kind of like a tonic on immune system to find that right? Bound sweet spot. So but talking a lot, you probably have few questions, but there is some awesome, awesome results in the study. Now I so so happy about being able to do it in some of the things that we found. It's, it's amazing about the whole leeann Yang balance idea, and that the immune system can be overactive underactive, and in either case it was, including with an infection with autoimmune disease, right? Like you said, some of the women had low white blood cell, count, even though they've got this autumn Yoon disease, which you think all your, your immune system's overactive right going after things. So it's everybody has a slightly different. Maybe majorly different combination. And that's why lime disease is so complex is one globe doesn't fit. All right. One size doesn't fit. All one protocol doesn't fit all these variables matters. Like our our is part of your immune system overactive in another part. Underactive is part of your gut overactive rounder active house, the, the quality of microbiome, so. Forth, and so on, it goes on on, you know, even even really talked about genetics and all that. We know genetics our individual as fingerprints that just goes, just go to show you how the basics can really get in there and balance and fine tune some of these complex components that medications either cannot or have not yet been able to, to do. And also, Dr just want very much for your time. You've been very, very generous once again sharing your through Zaza a knowledge in this new exciting study. If folks are interested in learning about this AARP protocol, and how you can help them. Get started. How can people get hold of you? Yes. The first thing that would tell folks is please follow on any wellness, also. So angie. Mickey deal indicate trescott doing wonderful, wonderful work. I will. Outside research, also, do regular blogs on their patient. And we're pretty lengthy somehow can't manage to do things that are short brief, but please follow them. They have wonderful. Get started guides on how you can get started immediately with potentially following a dietary protocol in. What's the name of that again blow? Yeah. Autoimmune wellness okay? Munin wellness dot com or something. Yes, they both have individual a couple of different cookbooks. Nikki cannot with a nutrient dense AMP cookbook recently. It's wonderful. Indies got a wonderful book. There's some amazing resources in books that they've provided. They've also been in collaboration in the work pretty closely with Dr Sarah Ballantyne, who didn't foundational work in being able to discover the principles behind this nutrient dense elimination diet. So definitely follow them. You know, Angie's program said to Abyan six I can't, you know, it sounds like I have stock at her her program. It's an amazing program. I've seen so many wonderful things happen. And I work with her closely with some of our patients who go through that program in. It's such a it's such a great value as well. I'm minute program itself, I think is four hundred ninety dollars now for for six weeks in an optional for week at on there so much value. There is going to. I mean it's gonna change your life and not to sort of conclusions from the study in that's devalue, Mike cares provider. But one of the things that came out of the study was that on his people came in super sick and it would have been very challenging to necessarily where to start as a provider, it cut it on some pretty elaborate things. It's about the stool tests shows the precent despite assistant could area done with pretty heavy hitting probiotics antimicrobials stuff went away just dietary approach in it helped music, listen to what I should go after after that ten week period. So it really was gonna Taylor. Redirect, my resources, help the person you'll save some money so you can do quite a lot. Dietary lifestyle approaches you immediately the jokin spend a lot of money on functional practitioner, their time. So doing your duty allegiance research with. Yeah, I would love for folks to be able to explore things like AJ's program in collaborative practices that offer a lot more than just a one type of practitioner when you're that sick in that far off because it just you the best of collisions might find it difficult. When someone comes in quite complex. We don't know what's going to get better by following a dietary lifestyle community versus of the else. So really check out program. I think the next cycle that she's doing is going to be in September. She has you could still sign up for the weightless. But it sat p. Dot com belief that sad to APN six is a new program, I myself in Charlottesville, Virginia with a clinic resort routes partner Ryan hall. So the two of us combined of functional medicine perspective is folks nutrition perspective, immunity, what we call is integrated cares really providing services together in support of our initial intake is very likely to visits, but we're meeting with you together because we blend our skills. We see things as synergistic in the world. We are still seeing also be Senator sticks or really trying to write a different paradigm for folks, what we focused on folks in Virginia, we also do telemedicine from a functional medicine perspective rooks, across the country, because we don't be challenging to find the right person it right team where you are. So while I would love everyone to have local, maybe you don't have the right present it. So we won't be available Vokes consultation services, which as we as we can tell. For. In what your website, rob? Yes. So the clinic is resilient routes night. Personal website were a have a podcast and a half an episode with you McCain event show. Another one L. We recorded that was really wonderful. I can't wait to share with folks that website with long podcast, poetry's called a medicinal mind dot com and podcasts images for mind. I also if you go that page, you can sign up for e book talk about it before it's a wonderful, wonderful resource. If you're when it get started a candy potential overwhelming because there's a lot on there. They'll try to do everything, but you might be able to find a new podcast or new book, or you training through explorers of integrated functional health, and it might help you we through some of the crazy stuff that's on the, the internet really hope to hone where you put your time to learn more about this kind of approach. Awesome. Thanks so much for sharing dot rabbit. And look for to our next interview, whenever that might be. Yeah. No, thank you. I mean, you give me such a wonderful opportunity to share some of our story can remember less than we talked. But some people like me residency to a few months ago, something's changed. Oh. Took a little bit of a different life, lift trajectory. I'm so happy for it's been so rewarding. So hope you know, folks, maybe without the details game again I said, hey, you can do what you love doing in. You might it might evolve doing another path that academia corporate world as laid out for you. So I'm living proof of it. I think we're all in a space living proof of it. But yeah, I mean keeping my open state curious, if you can make your own, you can make your life and be super fulfilled. This was such an interesting study. And you know what really struck to me was not only the effects of this diet, that he was that he was doing a study on. But also, it seems to me, there was a an effect on the way that this the street and these lifestyle changes were administered with this kind of community based and high contact high social highly social integration of these lifestyle changes it really impressed me a great model, and I wish I don't know if any of you know of something that models this in the lime treatment world, please let me know because we'd like to bring them on the show, working with the doctors expensive. They have lots of bills, their hours are very valuable. So when you go to a lime literate doctor, you're paying hundreds, if not thousands of bucks, just. To sit in the room with them, right? And this model leverages so you do have some time with the doctor, but then you have health coaches, and wouldn't it be also, if there were some mime coaches and a, a moderated group where it safe. Now they're many moderated groups out there, but I don't think they're necessarily associated with doctors. It'd be great to marry the two together. That's, that's kind of what I heard out of this interviewed be a great way to put together, some of the disparate pieces, that we have out there in the lime world and make it work, even a more profound in stronger way. And also, if you haven't gotten your lime journey roadmap. Go to Lyme ninja rated dot com. Click on the extras button downloaded fill it out. If you have questions Email us, let us know about this, this diet part is a critical, part either in the last phase of restoring your health or in the beginning and preparing for treatment or even. Maybe as part of the treatment. So this diet, don't leave the diet for the last thing. It's so important, so many lime disease patients say that they wouldn't have had as control of their illness as they do right now, if they didn't take control of their diet. So it is not unimportant. No. Maybe the most important thing that you do if you like what we're doing here at lime ninja radio hit the supplied button at the bottom of your podcast app. That way you won't miss an episode. And if you really like what we're doing leave us a review on your podcast app. It helps us reach more people like you. Yes, please, please, please, we've had a few recently. We need a few more if you're thinking about it. You have a few nice things to say please head on over to the I tunes podcast app, or you can do it on the I tune store. Leave a quick review. We'd love to hear from you, and it helps us reach more people like you this such important message to get out there, how to get better. And we. Can get that message out with your help. And last if you have feedback suggestions for guests really anything at all. Just send us an E mail to feedback at lime ninja radio dot com and last as long time though I'm niches know this podcast would not be complete unless we left you with the lime ninja back of the day. Did you know ninjas can fold airplanes into paper? Injure radios purely public broadcast and is not intended to be personalized medical advice for any individuals specific situation. Each individual's medical situations, unique and liming Jurado Chanel theory light upon Android, considered as personalized medical advice on into radio's not licensed render medical bite, and should be considered simply the public opinion of lime ninja radio and its guests recommendations on specific treatment options are not intended to address any listeners particular medical situation, as always contact your physician before considering any new treatment.
E80: Deep Dive Into Dr. Julia Greenspan's Approach to Treating Lyme Disease
"Greetings this is sydney kennedy and i'd like to invite you to subscribe to the podcast series at WWW dot living with live the US this will keep you up to date on all our new releases living with line podcast maybe discussing very controversial topics is the information contained in these podcasts are from the guests personal experiences and are their own opinions these podcasts are intended for information the opinions expressed are solely the guests zone please discuss treatment options with your personal healthcare providers before changing for adding treatments enjoy the podcast living with live is brought to you in part by dr fired formulations a supplement company offering products such as labor civil harvested life assemble oregano oil and the most patients can purchase without a prescription and practitioners can open a wholesale account and carry the products it's an office to learn more visit dr inspired formulations dot com that's doctor it's fired formulations dot com we'd also like to thank hopkinton drug many people people have to be healthcare needs that mass produce pharmaceutical medications just can't meet that's why more people turn to hopkinton drugs of base counting and wellness pharmacy whether it's lime disease please fold illness thyroid hormone replacement therapy paediatrics dermatology hopkinton drugs specially trained and licensed pharmacists had great customize compounded medications occasions to the your specific needs shipping is available nationwide go to our x and health dot com that's part x and health dot com or call eight hundred four three nine forty four forty one visit drugs compounds with men hi everybody this it's indie kennedy eddie and you are listening to a episode of living with lime and if you're fortunate enough to find us on health means you're actually seeing us and everybody likes to see things thanks so here we are today we're talking with dr julia greenspan she is a new england natural pass she is very lime literate um and we are going to talk about her book and show you this beautiful book and it's rising above lime disease and it is filled with so much information we're real excited about this she herself was a lime suffer at one point and she is recovered and that probably put her in the area of treatment for other people because you know all of us that have had lyme disease feel very very compassionate and and we feel we really need to help people with tick borne illness anyways for the rest of her bio you can see it on the website i want want to welcome dr julia how are you today i'm good thank you thanks for having me oh this is great this is great so you know tell me why the book what what what did you have inside you that said i can't write a book well honestly they the publishers came to me and asked me to do it it they're asked me wow i would do that and so i sat with forbid and pondered it but i thought i to not do it you know i would've always regretted not not jumping in that pool so and then the motivation that i pictured in re in writing the book was honestly the picture i held in my mind a lot of my patients in the middle of the night having a harsh reaction or being stuck at home by themselves and the needing having my book be some sort of a resource that they could read read and go okay this is normal it's okay if it could do anything to ease somebody's misconceptions there suffering from anxiety or fear that that what they're going through isn't is abnormal or there's something wrong with it and feel inclusive so i've been in practice for over a decade and and i think it just all came from day after day conversation after conversation with patients and then from my own experience as a patient as you mentioned myself so sort of just a combination it was something that was i guess i wrote it in about a year and a half or two but it was actually about ten or eleven twelve years in the making with patient experience so actually actually they're probably they're more than than myself for educating me we do we do get a lot of information from our from our patients and one of the things that i find is that you know you can explain things to people but what happens is that in the midst of taking in the information information or not feeling well it kinda go so when you and you can only write so many protocols and what your office i'm in you know like little pieces of paper or you know you email them stuff but having a book like this is is in an incredible resource and it's an incredible resource i for people who are always looking for some more information because you know we there is a lot of information out there and that's why i i began this podcast because i didn't know right from wrong i didn't know what to believe there was a lot of information out there will this help me this help me but in terms of having it concise and in a paper you know it's important and i tell people all the time please put your kindles away at least a few hours before go to bed this however pick up and you can read it and whatnot before for you go to bed so so that's great you know when people come to you what's your protocol for testing what kind of things do you say okay hey i need an overall view of what's going on i need your footprint what what is the things that you tell people listen this is what we need a well i i would say with just about everybody i test for tick borne diseases so that includes the co infections so it's not just lime that's an attack i'm sure as you know people who've been listening into your podcasts have realized that at this point that there's other infections being carried and most the time in the conventional medical establishment the look at lime a look at a particular test test for lime but they won't actually look at co-infections so and so a lot of times people will be tested for lime that'll be negative and test them for something like rocky mountain spotted fever and that's what they've had all along so typically test for visa bartonella or look llosa's anna plasmas this at rocky mountain spotted fever excuse excuse me and and then also test viruses so we can't just look at tick borne diseases we need to look at the other things that are also in the system that could be co contributing into the symptoms we don't wanna call everything disease i kind of want to look at everything that's going on so a look at typically epstein barr human happy fifty six parvo virus cytomegalovirus and then i'll look at autoimmune disease because there is a relationship there between lime and and an autoimmune and i wanna make sure to someone have a real booming infection with are real booming process going on planetary process with rheumatoid arthritis and i'm completely missing and and if i don't look at that then i missing something you know while i'm treating for lima missing other ways that i could help them and also their hormones so both men and women will have hormone dysregulation with lime with chronic lyme typically so women they'll have depending on their age they'll have different changes in their cycles men will have low hormone status so low testosterone even in their twenty s i just got a test back on a twenty two year old with a hormone status it looks like he's in his eighties and he also has lime so we have to look at all those variables of what's contributing to someone being unwell and how lime has sort of treaded on those different areas of interrelated with the whole picture so those are the typical tested i look at yeah right because it it does such a number on your whole body especially if you've had it awhile maybe you got it early yet you know the antibiotics didn't take care of it completely in here we are you know three four six months a year later and you haven't been feeling right and all of a sudden the whole body is in crisis isis and yeah in the hormone levels are really really really typical and you know i learned about mimicry and how you you know without immunity issues you've got things that are going on and then your immune status is like takes a hard left or hard right and it's now a tacky something that it wasn't even intended to do you find that a lot yeah so if we see an increased an a antinuclear antibody or a rheumatoid factor i'll tell people that if there's no other signs that look like the autoimmune disease a lot of times these proteins are expressed because the tissues are stressed and the nature of limes- barricades they like go and hide in the joint spaces in the muscle the muscular tissue and when they're they're the body isn't stupid the immune system is this is quite highly evolved an intelligent and so these proteins showing up when you say autoimmune typically it's like well the bodies attack itself will be don't know why and so we we you think of it in terms of a microbe being present that may be is not being acknowledged fully in a in what's considered a differential diagnosis or you know trying to include that and possible reasons why somebody is sick oftentimes it's that the body is trying to clear the pathogen out of the joint capsule is trying to clear that and so thus your immune system starts to attack back that's face and then what you're gonna do it's gonna start expressing these proteins under stress and inflamed so but what's the initial cause is is it just doing it because it just is having an inappropriate response in for no known reason or is your immune system really trying to accomplish something there so that's that's that's that's where you would see those elevation of those proteins for somebody it's it gets kind of confusing because you really have to say if the people say well we'll do i have matured arthritis or you know do i have shimao does what do i have and i guess the answer zor to that is will find out later on once we clean up all of the mess that going on then we will find out what we're kind of left with and it was thyroid issues more times in women than in men but have a really difficult time stabilizing thyroid with if somebody with lime disease as well so you'll find that you'll take the dosage just a little bit up on their medication and they'll go hyper thyroid which means that it'll be too overmedicated and then you'll be okay may take it down i'm just an inch down and all of a sudden it's full blown hypo low functioning thyroid and just by taking it one edge to left or the writer you know up and down so oh and typically though that i've seen that instability with the hormone system when there is another cause not just because it's just hashi motos but those issues do need to be ah addressed because your hormones really are the governor like hormone system is the governor of the body and if that is not functioning on on all cylinders than it is going to be really hard for me to to communicate properly with the immune system and to kind of judge what's going on there and rebuild you know really the hormone system is maintaining and rebuilding a continuously early and and modulating all of our behaviors and actions and our responses to things so it's super important that needs to be looked at oftentimes i find why not sometimes overlooked or that that's all that's looked at oh all you have is is you're going into menopause all you have is a thyroid issue this is all fibroid so again we're straying you know there there's one side it's very polarized you know it's either this or that but then we look at tick borne diseases starts to get a little messy anaerobic gray in the middle you know and and so that's that's for dr getting creative right right the adrenal gland is or gland 'cause there's two of them they get affected very quickly right because of just the stress of being l. justice stresa being human even if we just took it we just took lime disease out of it and and just really just so let's picture that you know someone before they got lime and then all the things that happened has happened to people plus just all the digestion of the data and how a fast the world moves right now and then someone gets lime that comes in to a system that's already been depleted and fatigued yeah definitely the adrenals are managing your flam your inflammation levels you know they're trying to keep things heat the body stable you know and in homies basis you know in balance and and trying to manage everything and provide us with that energy through the day to get up in the morning helpless digest our food help with insulin proper blood sugar balance so so it's yeah if that is that's depleted before you even get the infections then of course that's going to be taken down and even more difficult to recover so adrenal adrenal support is very important in in kind of a part of treatment for every patient like that's just like a no-brainer got any i don't even think i mean i i do i do salivary retesting for adrenal hormone testing here and i do a lot of other specialty labs that are real patient specific depending on their story and their situation but i had a certain point i i don't do the salivary hormone testing anymore for the journals because just about everybody has some fatigue so i i just make that kind of a standard part of the care right it's a given it's a given given and save you the one hundred fifty bucks or other and sixty bucks and let's just let's just call it like it is this is what's going on right right do do use herbal support like ashwell gonda what what is your go-to for helping those poorer adrenal glands yeah well usually it depends there's a couple of different formulations some that are can be purely plant-based based on others that are going to have you know typically bovine or cow usually adrenal cortex and and things that we referred to kind of crossley in the natural medicine world ABC bits but they do help i know it's awfully all the vegans never so but that that is but most of the time people are on plant based so it's going to be a combination typically of holy basil rodeo woah oshawa gonda eliecer lisa caucus liquorice licorice root guevara so those are the go-to and typically that'll be blended in with some b. six 'cause b. six is a very very important vitamin cofactor for the adrenal glands and for the neurotransmitters of the brain yeah it's it's true the vast majority of people that i've tested their b vitamins edelman's are just not where they need to be and for people trying to stay healthy it's pretty it's pretty much a problem and i i don't know if it's because our food sources so great or people aren't eating what they need to eat on a regular basis or we're just so fast paced and it's just so so much easier to not cook in to get something prepared and what not in in it's just an it's hard for the people who are sick to also you so make what they need and take care of themselves so really i truly believe that we all need those vitamins yes yes now i will say there are some people people with when they get be six about they get a little revved up and have a hard time so that's not an abnormal it's rare but it's not an abnormal side effects so just if somebody takes internal support and it ends at reading them up and making them more aggravated or anxious it's probably the b. six and they're so then you just want a product that didn't have that in their right and you can test your b. six levels with your yeah that's also something that that doctor can look into for you right and i do that i do like looking at where we're starting can i tell people all the time we need a roadmap you know you're coming in here and you've got a process i know kind of where we are now but i know where you you wanna go and there's a bunch of roads we take so let's put this all out on paper let's get this roadmap established and then we can determine what we need to they do it's tough with adrenals i i really have to say it's it's difficult because we never know how long it's gonna take them to recover yeah and so it's not just about so when i talk to people about their adrenal it's not just about the capsules that they're taking in or the herbs taking it's about creating regularity in their life so the adrenal glands really thrive on things being regular they don't do well on people who have you know people who do shift work or travel ally these changing schedules also if there's a lot of different stressors in life and people have a hard time saying no to things and are trying to be everything for everybody and you know feel that sense of discomfort comfort and guilt if they're not doing it and you know that struggle you know if they're stressors at home you know trying to reduce any other external oh you know issues that are going on there as well as introducing lifestyle changes that are going to calm things down meditation for things speaking to people people about that or implementing it into if they have prayer time you know that's that's that's more where they are spending their time during the day just trying to do things is to be able to calm and be able to kind of neuro detox innocence and to be in in the quiet and calm because we have to repeat like our nervous system in our adrenal system has to learn again how to be calm and the only way to do that is to practice it but it can be very uncomfortable if you're used to being you know l. on your phone and go go and chaos and business and you know and then when things calm down that's usually when people start to go a little stir crazy and have a hard time with that so we have to unlearn unlearn and relearn and so it's not you know it is helpful it is amazingly helpful to have the the herbals but there also has to be a behavioral component there because the herbals i can only take you so far right and you know one of the things that i tell people all the time is you've really gotta get this whole bedtime thing yes sound pack uh-huh yes yes it's gotta be pretty much the same time to bed and pretty much the same time to get up and you know i wrote a post to our are pursue wellness subscribers and i talked to them primarily about the hours between ten and two you're almost getting time and and a half for what you're sleeping that is a really prime time right there but you really gotta get yourself ready to go to sleep and you know racing around and and folding clothes and doing things you gotta have a process and i and i say this all the time and it's redundant i know but maybe somebody hasn't heard this before i do the thirty thirty thirty rule my sister-in-law the first thirty is getting ready for tomorrow so it's last minute things it's figuring out you know maybe what we're going to have for dinner tomorrow night getting lunches you gotta shutdown that computer shut shut down the phone the next thirty self care and that means you know you're either taking your shower you're sitting in an epsom salt bath your cooking your eyebrows you know whatever you gotta do and then that lasts thirty minutes is that real quiet time meditation listen journaling writing gratefulness kind of things i don't care or reading a paper book and then it's really lights lights out and by that time your body has had that time to read down another practice introduced by rudolf steiner for the steiner peter enthusiasts is tell us is before bed at night basically replaying your day from the basically from where you're starting at that point wait nine my husband's now we're talking about trying to be calm her represented here the partaking in the festivities here but yeah he just came in going cow me it reminds me of the CNN broadcasts our cast where the woman in the kids the kids a little baby came in with the guy that was trying to do the interview and his wife came crawling on the floor i kill that's like what was seen millions of time time 'cause you love it running in and lived in grab the walker grabbed it she's trying to shut the door where she's laying on the floor yeah yeah yeah favorites best ask i mean if you don't have humor in your life i did a podcast like the last i think it's the last one we did and it was on laughter yoga and mindfulness and laughing oh how good it is to laugh yes i'm i'm a proponent of that and share a lot of laughter with patients and jada brain of eh but before i forget let me let me talk about this one little practice here will and then we'll move but basically it's before you go to bed at night we playing your your day from the minute that you lay down until backwards all the way to the point where you woke up in the morning so basically going through your day and just not judging it not analyzing it not over thinking it just letting a thread through and just try to you know put yourself back in those situations and a backward motion bringing yourself back to the morning and that kind of clears out the day it sort of helps you evaluate in and to see if anything came up or what happened that day so you have like a consciousness about what happened before you enter into sleep and that way it also also helps with sleep it helps sleep be more resolved and to get a deeper more restful sleep i believe especially when that practice is done on a regular basis so that's something something to that could be very meditative and probably people apply it to like a third of the day or halfway through the day before they fall asleep themselves so in that sense it's also sort of like a asleep practicing tense up their muscles and work their way down from their toes all the way up to their their head it's just another method of doing that so i've never heard of that that's yeah that's hard to start and work backwards the best you can yeah isn't that right you can't put a lot of pressure on yourself because that defeats the purpose of what you're trying to accomplish there yeah let's let's spend a little time on inflammation because the whole process of resolving inflammation is is a problem and when people have had lime or tick borne illness for any period of time time there is a a level of inflammation and people can have a whole run with daily inflammation they can have pain they can also oh have surges of inflammation tell us what's going on when people have been doing okay and then all of a sudden they're not doing okay they don't feel well they either you're have pain or their digestive tracts off their nauseous or they feel flu like what what's happening at that time well there's many different causes for why someone's in that state depending on where the inflammation is landing so from a spire keat from the the lime spire keep they they all actually all of the infections they sort of have a life cycle within the body and they'll go dormant sometimes in the wake up and be more active and moving around and and what's unique about the spark is its ability to move through the body ano- and basically swim and be very fast it can outrun our own immune cells and they can get into certain areas of our body that our bodies not accustomed to having microbes then so the presence of them in in our tissues they you can go dormant be kinda quiet so then our immune systems like okay cool like nothing going on there we can back off a little bit and then you know they can have a flair and there's many many different colonies throughout the body so when people have those sensations of feeling pain in the left knee and then it moves to the hip and then tomorrow will be the shoulder and then the elbows and some of the fingers you know those colonies or those areas can be more activated based on the activity of the microbes and also your own stress it's going to also change how your body's going to respond to that but basically you're going to up regulate what gets the most disgust in regards inflammation of something called signs which are proteins expressed that that basically create all of those reactions with that discomfort that we feel inflammation actually is a very positive thing in a sense it's very important in our healing process so you know when we slam are some with a hammer or we hurt ourselves you know we break a limb you know like if we go oh you know into a serious injuries we need to have pain we need to have swelling we need to have more blood in that area we need to have more heat in that area and we need to be immobilized that our body can have a chance to heal but that you know we have a injury that has you know an acute moment where it happens you know like you i was working in the garden and i was basically impaled by something when i was digging through the dirt and my finger so it bled at hurt it's swollen and now over the past few weeks it's gone through its healing process and now my fingers pretty much back to normal and it's fine but with tick borne diseases or these more chronic infections we don't have that you know that tip a the goal you know like a cute and then you know that rise and then that fall and resolution so we keep having these these flares and rises in these you you know the infections making themselves known but we don't our body can't quite get us to that point of resolving the infection so we keep just basically having these immune pathways ways spill out the side kinds and all different types of proteins that create pain that heat up the area and over time with this repeated cycle of inflammation that's when we start to see tissue changes you know enlarge enlarged nachos and our fingers or you know knees that start to instead of being swollen hot and red they start to crack and pop and start to get changes in ligaments joint capsules you know things starting to age prematurely age in the body because of this continuous inflammation cycle they just keeps happening over and over again without any resolution so he idea is to obviously remove the cause which which is what we're trying to do we're talking about infections is to either lower the load of the infection or try to eradicate it or try to clear it from the body and i don't ever typically use the word cure with patients when it comes to line because i don't know that line is out of my system i don't you know and that's not something i can guarantee anybody what we're trying to do is return a person to a quality of life but everything that they're experiencing as a symptom is inflammation and so then it's like okay if we if we don't have control over how fast aspire keats leave or other infections go if the virus it's really not going anywhere because viruses with you forever but they can be calmed down and not being a state where they're not triggered we also have to look at what we have control over so okay so we can't control how quickly this goes infection leaves the body but we can't control the the the amount of sugar that you're eating and the types of food that you're eating that are creating more inflammation in the body what are you exposed to in the workplace you know mold in your home do you have emotional emotionally toxic relationships you know that are causing this problem right there's a whole are you are you you know our eating mcdonalds onnell's every day or you know are you trying your best to sort of have a clean eating in a clean diet are you most patients become gluten intolerant you know after developing being after having lime where they didn't have it before so that it becomes okay do we take these how do we you know start to remove these things out of the diet which that's actually the harder piece that's where you start to see the emotional attachment to these things and the frustration and being real kind of angry about what limes making you have to do like you didn't want to give that up you didn't want to give up the the you know that you weren't ready and sometimes people aren't ready and then the infection drags out a really long time until they become ready you know until they become so uncomfortable that they you just are forced to have to make a change so when it comes to inflammation again there we also look at heavy metals we look at all you know i i look at that here and just look at all the different causes what's the body burden you know and and try to eliminate as much as we have control over and that i can change and that's again by taking things internally in order to calm down inflammation listen as well as changing things in the diet and lifestyle right i mean that's the basis of how people should heal but it's a process you can't can't work on everything all at the same time now so we picked the you know like let's say someone's gotta package smoking habit that's going to be my first you know like at of all the things that could be you know i'm less us worried about the button on your burger than i am about smoking so we got to pick our battles you know so the you know i i would say that let's say they have a bread addiction or sugar addiction i mean that doesn't get talked about very much how you know white flour white sugar the addictive potential and when we know we have a crisis with you know illegal drugs and this culture with the opioid crisis and other things but you know the the addiction to sugar is actually more pervasive and slowly destructive not not damaging as the opioid crisis we can see it in its visibly you know damaging it's more of the slow gradual chronic process but that gets talked i mean that gets discussed in a lot of different different forums and and is becoming more awareness but it doesn't change the fact that we're addicted and so i've had grown men in here you know grownups crying over having to give up luton gluten or sugar because it's just like a so i'm starting to get his eight really it can make you very cranky just like taking cigarettes out or something like that or something you know that we would think of as being terribly ably addictive it's amazing to see the behavioral changes and individuals over taking out sure it's very difficult we have one of our our patients now how and we're trying to remove him it started off with diet coke and it just was an even though we're talking diet in risen sugar sugar it's still an addictive behavior and we tried to instill you know something is it is it the sweetness you need is it you know is it the bubbles roles and oh lord it is been a struggle and i helped him to his car and he says oh just put i had given him a test this kit and he's a just put it in the back and it opened up the back door on the floor was about five bottles of diet coke and i said i thought you were we're getting rid of these we're giving you all these options ya-ya trying cutting down cutting down but but people do people will are totally addicted and i and i really fault this soda craze that that's where one of the worst things you can do and yeah find something different i mean my go-to now i really never was a big soda person anyway but in my go-to is spin drift i don't know if you've ever tried that it's it's awesome it's it's only has fruit in it and it's a carbonated water and there isn't any sugar and it's really it's good because my daughter kara is a registered dietitian and you know she has to be able should tell people exactly what to do and she's very precise us you're not going to give the wrong information unless she's researched it to to prove that it's not wrong so that's what she's that's one of our goto for people yeah yeah and you know i'll own it i i had a definitely a soda addiction when i was a kid in my teenage years but i think you know the the main thing is you know helping them understand that they're going to go through a process almost like treating it like it is like like trying to get over an an addictive substance that they would think of as being addictive if they were trying to stop drinking or stop smoking that they need to be prepared that they're you know that it goes beyond just their own personal choice and addiction it's it is the microbes in the belly so there's tons of research now about the micro bayada you know our own our own gut got flora is very is very much in relationship with our cravings they they get used to what we eat them they grow you know certain strains will grow and and might lipstick candida you know just a candidate gets a lot of discussion and a lot of a lot of different opinions about candida yeast overgrowth in it is a problem and so they love sugar they thrive off sugar so of course they're going to send signals from your belly to your brain and save blotch her we watch her and it and so you're just like i just have to have sugary nine he chocolate i need something i when i was sick with lyman i didn't know it if my if ah time if i didn't have one of those trader joe's ice cream cookies at the end of the day i i would go mental i didn't know i was sick at the time at this point and this was after going through medical school cool naturopathic medical school and doing all these fast diet stuff in like taking care of myself knowing how to eat knowing how to be and i just had this you know patients come in with this incredible sugar craving just stuffing it in their face and i think that a big part of it is again the immune system also being out of balance that they're microbes in their gut or out of balance impacting their neurotransmitters transmitters so we kind of start to crave stuff that is not healthy for us because we're trying to feed something else cisco that's also within us but we don't know how to you don't know that we just know we want it it and also when we get sick you know when we get sick too we need quick energy a lot of people are fatigued go back to the adrenal fatigue if if somebody is you know just looking for something to keep them going and they're exhausted their body's gonna look for quick sugar quick burn right and that's not the best thing but again the bodies dislike okay we don't have the juice is to maintain you so go grab that cookie we'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsors botanical medicines are important part of the integrative lime disease program bio sidon from bio botanical research is a professional strength broad based program that has been extensively researched collectiveness has nutritional support in live and code affections asked her effective about bio sidon LSF and visit bio sidon dot com master supplements i specialize in probiotic enzymes and fiber that support digestion their products provide results that you can feel working within sixty days or money back guarantee their staff is is available to help you decide which products programs are right for you visit master hyphen supplements dot com or call eight hundred nine two six two nine six one for aborted let's talk about the energy you know our our ourselves with our might have qendra and we we need to enhance and help the might aqa andrea function so that we can have that energy that we need because notoriously people who are dealing with anything use me chronic or persistent there might qendra is it can be very effective so how do we help our mitochondria well first of all so might akande back to like basic cell biology is an actual whole all separate living being they integrated with us way back when in our evolution they're actually a whole different like like great like consciousness or entity living within ourselves and they get very depleted with how you know depending on how one has what has been exposed to illness toxins uh-huh emotional stress throughout their lives they get depleted and their main purpose one of the main purposes is to create ATP which is cellular energy a lot of people may no ATP is based on like watching you know early oil cans and things like that because that's kinda used as a as a metaphor cars having energy and having but that's that's us that's dr gasoline that's the main energy in ourselves so if they get depleted what do you know again there's another resource another major huge resource that we need for cell functioning for cognitive functioning or energy overall energy so there are nutrients that can help with that co q. ten is one of them alpha lipoic acid is another NHCD is another you know there are different you know there are different products that will be more geared towards mcconnell the function we'll we'll see like combinations of of those nutrients in it in order to help detoxify them and help them work better so that's important to take a look at as well if you're feeling a lot of fatigue right that the fatigue is a problem because people need to function and they we need to take care of their children or the kids need to go to school or people need to go to work and that that is critical and i have to say and the way i was cared for even by a lime literate doctor there was it never any talk about any of this information that we're talking talking about today there was just antibiotics and take a probiotic but at a different time than you taking your biotic will what type of probiotic it doesn't really matt just take a profile see does matter of course it is bad it's true it's true and no oh i mean this this cost me a lot a lot of money a lot of time et cetera and i am now know that that is not i'm not really a holistic care and i'm thrilled that i'm on the other side of it at this point but it was a very rough road and people just need to be able to learn and i'm hoping to podcast how people just learn information and know what task and have some resources to say hey you know what i heard this word might qendra i went to dr google now i understand it's this little powerhouse in the cells and they need to all communicate and they need to have this function and for me to feel better in i heard something about co q. ten can you tell me more about co q. ten and it'll maybe somebody's gonna tell you about co q. chen or somebody's gonna say hey you know need that you're fine just eat your pork and beans and you're gonna be just fine and that may not be what you need it all yeah yeah yeah and and also for more of an energetic slant and kind of a self empowering slant that there is so much coming out right now about how much power we have in regards to tuning in to ourselves and tuning into our bodies and how much how much much more power we have than we think in regards to healing and so often tell people okay so we're taking this substance taking steps to help your krebs cycle and magnesium easy amon riboflavin and all these things in these in these key lates these mineral relates to help out your mitochondria but how about just talk to them to you know when you're in that tsk when you're in that time of quiet and stillness you can just talk to them and just say i love you i appreciate you thank you for all you do for me you know what is it and and ask your body oh please guide me in craving what it is it is healthy for me we can start having a dialogue with ourselves they do respond in our body has an intelligence that can respond and so that's another step of you know taking this to the next level that you know we can take physical substances inside ourselves but we can also have that dialogue with our bodies and a lot of times it's not easy to do because a lot of things have happened to these bodies and you know our perception of illness too so it's i think it's good to start creating cultivating that relationship i know this sounds a bit it sounds different to talk about your body instead of just us being whole and talking about your mind and your emotions and then all of that in your your psyche having a conversation with your body but your body has its own unique intelligence so i think that's also important especially regards to medical andrea because you're in relationship with them night right sprite fight to improve your relationship with them in the whole part of you have control over a certain amount of what goes on within your body my starting starting in your mind yeah by thinking positively and i you know i guess like i heard about it a long time ago but i i didn't know how to do it or like is there something special you have to like bless yourself first or whatever but generally speaking by saying positive things things are even starting that gratitude journal you're you know but i sometimes it's very difficult to have gratefulness when you don't having an emotional support system and a lot of people who are struggling don't have that emotional support you see people all the time i'm sure you see women and men and you know maybe in the beginning they had a partner spouse boyfriend girlfriend and then all of a sudden they're coming in alone and you know that's hard but you really we need to have that conversation we need to open up the lines of communication and say hey you know your girlfriend whatever hasn't been here the last couple times is everything okay and let them tell you and it's very difficult it's the the illnesses isolating because you don't some people we'll get it you know they don't get it and it just it's like a it's like a ripple effect people don't get it then those people don't get it and then and those people don't get it and so you end up becoming isolated and it's hard to explain to people it's it's very difficult especially especially the longer people are sick the harder it is for people to believe that there's really something going on do you have do you have a way to encourage the people to seek out help or support well it starts here in my office you know this is a place that that they can come and you know to get your somebody's physical complaints and ailments doesn't you know and kind of look at the physical exam things like that i can get through that pretty pretty quickly what takes majority time in my office is is really giving people space who several kleenex boxes in a week because they they need to just have a space where they can just let it go and not have to explain anything not have to you know and and have me basically you know hold space for them mm-hmm and say you know this is all normal you're an in it's always i'm always telling the truth that you're not the first person to speak about this today you know you're like you're not alone and this is really normal and also that in their community so who were they talking about who they who they talk to you about lime you know who they feel free to share the swiss who is supporting them and most of the time time unless someone else in the family has it you know that's gonna be found like let's say support groups and a lot of those sprout up you know almost kind of a grass roots thing that you know individuals who've had lyme they get through it they get over in the area i live in it's pretty infected the you know if somebody hears about somebody who had lime and then they get over and they're looking really good like they looked sick now may look better than you start having the neighbors come over and you know people you know giving your name out and patience of mine have flaked had their phones flooded with people trying to call who did you go see what have you done how did you get over it and so a collection of my patients actually created a support group out of that and it's continued to grow and evolve and has been pretty amazing to watch them them do that but that's happening that happens that's happening all over the place and that is where people can i feel safe or their safest and being able to just go and just not have to explain defend lime but just go hey today sought today was i was in a lot of pain today you know i'm not sleeping well marriage is doing well my husband or my my wife doesn't understand they're sick of hearing it and you know so you know there's there's many different issues that come up with an relationship or their children they can't be the parent they wanna be all that source hard oh it's hard hard because you really you don't wanna miss a day now right and if your if your kids are struggling especially if you've got sick children with lime disease you know that's that's that yet is a whole nother issue because not only are you feeling isolated about that but now you have to deal with the schools calls and you know that's a problem how do you you know children children are not just little adults are they what what is different about taking care children other than dosages when they're sick with a tick borne infection well most of the time i tell parents and in it is usually really the case that kiddos get over the stuff a lot easier than adults do just because they they don't they haven't built up a bunch of other issues if they if they're under the age of ten you know if they've had a pretty typical household loving supportive household if there's other issues going on it can make it definitely more difficult especially if there's a divorce situation in one parent thinks that live is there and the other one doesn't then the kid does not get the child doesn't medication but children also will manifest the disease aziz in in different ways prior to puberty there seems to be that threshold when puberty happens where it starts to become more like what you would see with a chronic adult as but the children usually are when it comes to lime or knees bellies and heads is usually how i you know if a parent comes in in and i'm treating them and they're like well i'm wondering if my child has this like well did they complain about knee pain belly pain or head pain they're like yes and like okay so we need to have them in and be tested and so that's it and usually it's not just one member of the household so having conversations with people it's like well okay you know anybody else in the household have they been diagnosed what are they being treated your children have been bit by tex well yeah but that just you know just happened you know all the time and you know nothing big has happened or this or that but then they get so used i used to you know having their children complain a lot of them a lot of parents not because they're trying to you know not take care of their children but heff hillary conflicted that the child is trying to get attention or that the child doesn't know because she's like let's say seven or under that they if they're complaining about having pain that they're just just you know the there might just be saying it to to get mom to pay attention to them and not really know that they're feeling it but i actually find children to be more liable in that situation because they don't have a filter you know they if they're feeling pain there's gonna tell you my leg hurts right now you know they don't care whether it'd be the grocery store they could be in the middle of somewhere completely you know really are you wouldn't just talk about yourself and they'll just say it 'cause it's happening and you know whereas we tend to kind of as we get older we tend to we tend to become more socially restricted in that way so when when shoulder do complain about that stuff it's really important to listen because they're going to be more pure about what it is they're experiencing yet it's going to be more about the symptoms and also about the emotional reaction to the symptom them not so much that they have the words say mom you know if if they're four they're going to be like mom you know back when i was two now realizing leising that there's something going on right now you know they're gonna be they're gonna be tired they're not gonna go to bed as easily they're going to be more difficult sued they're going to be maybe going to bed it cutting themselves to bed early complaining of leg pain you know not being able to run around as much as they used to when out school what about you you know doing their homework and trying to stay above everything and kids with some of these you know i mean we have we have brain fog you know i mean in general but i can't imagine what these little kids because dr brad's failed once told me me as because they're so loaded the ground wherever they get bit it's it's more likely to manifest itself in in the head a lotta kids do get bites in the in the hairline so the yeah they with kiddos it's difficult because right now as we know they there's so many diagnoses of different behavioral issues in the classrooms eighty one of them is a lot of times it they don't lime gets missed because again child is is just gonna be acting out based on how they feel and not necessarily being able to verbalize it and then all of a sudden grades will change or plummets you they'll be less focused in class and then they in it gets even more difficult if a teacher is just they're overwhelmed we all know teachers are overburdened and overwhelmed the classrooms are or billowing over with with children so they're doing the best they can but let's say shame student for you know thinking that they're not paying attention they don't care and they making me get punished for that than that just changes i'd say the hardest thing is when a kid has been dealing with it for a long time in their confidence is they just think they're stupid you know they think that they're failures failures and in in even moving into junior high and high school it's really hard to help them get that confidence back because they even if they start to feel better socially they've been a little bit there got some PTSD you know from putting themselves out there and facing ridicule and also trying to get more socialized let's say they have to miss school and parents that whole you know issue of parents missing on a work because of having a sick child at home so financially that's a burden on the family anna stressor watching your child suffer and then the time period i do have students that are out for an entire year or more and now amazingly i've been been a practice long enough to see these kids you know starting at ten even younger than that and you know now these kids are twenty then twenty one and their graduate you know they're getting close to graduating college and watching when you'd see them as a kid thinking oh my gosh how you know when i was first starting out how is this kid to make it they're already so the mentally emotionally physically neurologically having a terrible time especially make with bartonella with ticks and all sorts of psychiatric issues going on and you just i just wonder are they going to be able to function and it's amazing once they start feeling better at these kids almost all of them just shot out like a cannon over and pushed their way through school and are just doing amazing once they got that opportunity so there are there are so so many of those success stories where you would look at somebody being in a situation where there might be maybe getting eating labeled as ADHD autism spectrum issues antisocial saikia psychotic and then you start to treat retrieve them and then all of a sudden they blossom you know they're able to just be themselves and being their bodies and that's that's pretty amazing i like that because that's is a wonderful fall outcome story we hear so many things about you know this has gone on for years and jimmy or joey just there you know the parents are worn out out at all that it's very hard so hearing these really good stories is got to be very reassuring for people who are listening you know i don't know we we have these two new kittens i was talking to you before anyways and dan so right now i'm at in cape cod and it's it's endemic it's i mean where isn't it a problem really but anyways i treat my dog were were careful we do tick checks and one of the kittens was doing something on the floor it was a tech how it got in here and it and now we've become especially people who have been sick with lime disease and you know are up to our eyeballs and about lyme disease were i don't know about you but i get a little like is there just one or were you know so we take the dog and we search all over her and we're feeling the kittens and they don't go outside so now we're looking at us and it it's it's a thing it it really is and people have to just kind of be aware you know i not only these kids with everything that they can't play outside as well as they could have when i was growing up we spent hours days in the woods making forts and things like that i would be afraid to send somebody to play and do something that would be really fun because well we now know that it's a big problem and you know people like to camp people the outdoors is such a healing space yeah do you what do you tell people i'm sure you don't say stay home you know cover up don't know so the core the the core issue is that is that a cute i always say that cute lime is on the dick so when it bites us and we get infected needed to feed that's just their natural you know they're they're predilection there that's what they need to do predisposition and they do what they need to do they feed they they move on they leave there's nothing personal they're not trying to cause harm right now if you find a tick on on your person you pull it out you to send it out and test it and there are places a tick report dot com through umass amherst is probably the closest you know in the new england area here you're going to get the quickest outcome and i just find them to be very reliable liable and but that that being said chronic lyme is more of a manmade issue so you know when we don't start to really make this inclusive inclusive in the differential diagnosis we don't listen to patients that are coming in with you know symptoms that don't seem to make any sense and then we labeled psychosomatic you you know and and and we look at everything else but lime then we ended up missing something that is just so in plain sight and such you know it is so in plain view here here it is a problem that we're missing that and i you know i mean i say we but you know as a as a larger medical establishment that's what's going on right now and there are a lot the different motivations for that but that's that's another podcast so the but the main thing is that if somebody in a household a few different things so you you can have outfits that you treat for your kids with breath and you can send it out to companies that will like treat like if you took five or six year kids outfits for the summer and then put it in a box near the door i haven't been able to access those close it they're going outside educating the kids about ticks talking to them about it because a lot of times kids will also see taking this pull it off night even think anything of it if they know that's what that is they'll come and tell tell their parrot but really you know having a dialogue about what it can do in it starting very early age and not from a fear based just more like okay this is about this is what it does this is what it can do you need to tell me if you see this on you you know try to keep the bugs come and tell me give me the bug and we can send it out for testing and also doing thorough tick checks on on your on your on your child is well and yourself which we all try to do but again some of the techs are going to be so small they're not going to be able to be found so the main ain't thing is that if a ticket found on the body and it sent out its pull it went into the skin you send it out for testing and comes back positive or you start to see a elision asian around it that needs to be dealt with right away and then you can significantly reduce your you know your chances of getting a chronic illness but you know it let's say i've never found a tic take on me ever that i had lime i had babies and so you know without finding tick then all of a sudden symptoms start to show up and you don't really know oh why all of a sudden one day just woke up and you felt like he got hit by a truck and you haven't been right sense but those types of stories are more relatable to an infection shen and the environment you know something coming in a big change that doesn't make any other sense for it to be there and in at least to be thoroughly tested for and treated so most of the time though unfortunately as we know and other doctors have talked about on your on your show and you know as well that people get funneled into seeing rheumatologist gastroenterologist just a neurologist the list goes on infectious disease specialist it gets it gets missed and then time goes by in i and ends up being a chronic condition or the treatment that is given isn't long enough and then it's decided instead of allowing the body to tell us when it's done being treated needed you know we're making the decision is made because of an intellectual decision that oh based on this criteria it in you've had this medication for two weeks or three weeks you don't have it anymore so whatever you have leftover post lyme syndrome then you know that's just what you got you know and that that's it go the home in it eventually will go away so we're making an intellectual decision in this case when really as a doctor you have to start you have to listen to win the body is done with if the treatment so i know i kind of went off no question with ticks and practical but i stay more in the middle with this i think the a middle road we we cannot we need to we when we live in we live in the new england area it's just a fact of life we're going to have to be real about the fact that this is where where we live and this is what we are exposed to and so now what do we what's the best we can do with that we can wear clothing that can protect us we can spray and put natural substances on our bodies or or if you choose to do the chemical ones you tick checks treat your yard put your caller in your dog where lights light clothings you can see them i'm on you at you know those types of all those things make a huge difference just having the awareness you know and and so but but not so much that you're outside without having having any protection at all you know interesting oh well just you know whatever limes on issue it's fine i can do you know how my hunters are my biggest patient population that don't wear anything 'cause they don't want to scare game away have sent on their body that's going to be triggered so they sit out there under a tree in a practically so they're my frequent flyers but we also you no we cannot isolate ourselves you know like you said nature's a healing place in one of my patients refers to it as dirt church you know that and being able to go outside and be the peace in nature that into actually kinda heal your relationship with that she's she's not against you you know this wasn't a personal attack that what happened is that you got sick and it was dealt with right away or looked at more thoroughly treated properly and so then that's when advocacy and things need to change more in regards to the the social structure and like the the larger governmental bodies with that and again that's a very big issue i know i i know we can't go down that road but but it just just saying that's right and there's a lot of things you could nitpick about what what needs to change in order for that to happen ended up probably going to be for a little while so i'm anytime you yumi other doctors you know that do recognize this as an issue which is is gonna keep showing up for work every day and doing what we do and and then help people through it the best way right it's it's spreading the word and i always always write to somebody who says something about oh i didn't know you know you had a podcast this is great i'm gonna tell my friend who has lime disease and i'm like you're being being part of the solution instead of being part of the problem you are now part of the solution because it takes a village and i know i'm coining a phrase as from ms clinton but it does it's not a one person job and your information asian today was fabulous but you know i wanted to say for all you who are watching do want to commend my my pupil who sponsor this podcast and i wanna talk about master supplements i wanna talk about half kington pharmacy i wanna send a shout out to bio sidon all of these people make it make it the ability for me to put this stuff out out there and i i do want to thank them and i also wanna thank pursue wellness that's kind of thinking myself but pursue dot US if you want more information about that please see my website we do help people who are kind of in that chronic tick nest and we're trying to help them improve their health with nutrition and you know good guidance but julia where where do people find you you what would you have a website where you know give us some information so people know where you are yeah the website is greenhouse medicine dot com and i'm practicing here an ambitious new hampshire new hampshire and he'd answer it's it's that whole were socked in you know this whole eastern eastern upper eastern area is is terrible as really it's unfortunate but i'm thrilled with all of the information you gave us today today because it's really it's really important for people to hear those positive stories that you just talked about i mean we can't always have everybody you know with smiles and sunshine and rainbows and unicorns because my granddaughter loves uniforms but but certainly hearing more about the positive is is really important and i wish you well and i wanna thank you for being part of this podcast and i usually ask silly question but a couple of times i ask what's on your bucket list let us know what what is it on your bucket list share with us well let's see egypt so going to egypt in october and i'm excited about that how i i love to travel so i like to go to different places on the planet so that that would fill up my my bucket list okay yeah places peru to yeah yeah i'm not much of an adventurous like i jumped out of a plane before i've done that i did that before kids so that that's crossed off and so i wrote a book that's crossed off so yeah yeah i wanna go see stuff okay okay how do the kids now my kids are nine and eleven okay okay yeah they can you take care of themselves almost i'll take him willie you can take them all with you to egypt oh no that one that one i'm doing my my buddy's going with me on that one but the but yeah so but other places i wanna go as they get a little bit older guests yeah yeah it's fun it's kids are fun while for all all my listeners out there you have just listened to another podcast of living with lime please subscribe to the website and that is WWW dot living with lime dot u. s. having the subscribers on my list help me get funding so please don't hesitate and i wanna thank again back to julia greenspan for all of her wise information and i want to show you again her book rising above lime disease take care have a great day thank you for listening to another episode of living with lime we'd like to take another moment to thank our sponsors botanical technical medicines are important part of an integrative lime disease program bio sidon from bio botanical research is a professional strength broad spectrum formula that has been extensively researched for effectiveness effectiveness as nutritional support in live and co-infections university studies have shown that this combination of plant medicines is also effective on biofilms that may be hampered treatment as well as providing broadly acting herbal support the life of soma form of bio side and called biocide and LSF is used by line literally physicians such as dr richard horowitz and dr to joe carnahan ask your practitioner about bio side and LSF and visit bio side dot com for more information master supplements living with live ever get overwhelming and finding the right right supporting difficult will master supplements can help master supplements specializes in probiotics enzymes at fiber that help support digestive and immune health during and after antibiotics master supplements products provide results that you can feel working with a sixty day money back guarantee their staff is available to help you decide which products and programs are right for you master yoursel climent is dedicated to science based products with the highest standards of quality control visit master hyphen supplements dot com for more information or call and talk to a team member at eight hundred nine
E88: Making Lyme Treatment Affordable and Personalized with Dr. Werner Vosloo
"Greetings this is Sydney Kennedy and I'd like to invite you to subscribe to the podcast series at. WWW DOT living with live the US this will keep you up to date on all our new releases living with line podcast. Maybe discussing very controversial topics is the information contained in these podcasts are from the guest personal experiences and are their own opinions. These podcasts are intended for information. The opinions expressed are solely the guests zone. Please discuss treatment options with your personal healthcare providers before changing for adding treatments enjoy the podcast living with live is brought to you in part by Dr fired formulations a supplement company offering products such as Labor civil harvested like a similar Oregano oil and the most patients can purchase without a prescription and practitioners can open a wholesale account and carry the products. It's an office to learn more visit. Dr Inspired formulations Dot Com. That's doctor. It's fired formulations dot com. We'd also like to thank Hopkinton drug. Many people people have to be healthcare needs that mass produce pharmaceutical medications just can't meet that's why more people turn to Hopkinton drug ablaze counting and Wellness Pharmacy. Whether it's lime disease please fold illness thyroid hormone replacement therapy paediatrics dermatology hopkinton drugs specially trained and licensed pharmacists in Greek. Customize compounded medications occasions to the your specific needs. Shipping is available nationwide go to our X AND HEALTH DOT COM. That's our ex and health DOT COM or call eight hundred four three nine forty four forty one drug compounds with a low everybody welcome to another episode a Soda Living With Lime. Today we are talking with Dr Werner Voss Lou. I'm trying to say that really nice. He is a a naturopathic physician as well as a homeopath and he's going to talk to us about chronic illness how he evaluates and treats chronic illness so that we can understand more the depth of it. He practices out of two states. He's in Utah and he is in Oregon and his has clinics are called restorative health. He also is the inventor founder of a company that produces a really cool line for treating chronic illness especially line and that is called return healthy it a whole it's a whole protocol call. He's going to talk to us more about it. Are you ready to talk good morning. Thanks welcome Dr Werner. This is great to have view thank you. I really actually only asked you because I wanted to talk with you because you have such great accent. Where are you from originally from South Africa which is with the accident from I love it. I love it. How long were you there. Did you say your whole life the first twenty four years twenty four years so you are or a young buck when he came to the United States in the so for more on Dr Warner's bio. Please go to my page. WWW DOT living with lime got us you can read his incredible bio. We can only hope to be half as educated as he is. So let's get started darted. let's hear a little bit about your career path and then we'll really dive in deep to all the information that everybody's waiting to hear hi you evaluate how you treat and what has seemed to be very successful for you. Thank you well. I was born in South Africa in in a rural farming community so my childhood was immersed in literally studying nature now in the seventies and eighties we did not have electricity city or television so life had a completely different focus some of my early lessons in medicine was with our cowboys outon tune the out in the hills and mountains herding cattle and sharing some of the medicinal plants that the US for the elements encountered in rural Africa which oftentimes oftentimes included Ricketts Llosa's some malaria at that time and various infectious conditions which is a much more typical in the Third World or rural African context on you'd imagine so my whole lifelong I wanted to become a physician an integrated good medicine physician completed a six-year homeopathic medicine agree in South Africa transitioning listening to the United States. I was fortunate enough to be able to attend. NCNB now in UNM importing Oregon to receive a doctorate in natural medicine subsequent to that specialized in Fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome under the mentorship of some incredible doctors most notably Dr Dr Jacob Teitelbaum Dr Kantor Doctor Andrei Garabedian and also Dr Alan Lobby so I I had a wonderful wonderful immersion in the most pure noncoercive natural medicine in my homeopathic training but then and also a very very thorough natural medicine background at CNN and subsequent practicing in the Vibrant Nature Pathak Community in Portland Oregon. I also had a very very rigorous training in the application but also researching and thinking in a western internal medicine approach or a systems based approach to chronic conditions that are treatment resistant like fibromyalgia chronic fatigue syndrome blonde complex. I think that's really good because some people hone in on one path when you have the exposure and the experience of of a variety of different input. You can't help but be a better practitioner because you know when I practiced gynecology. I did no medicine. I didn't did no surgical things and listen to this. This is this happens every time no matter what I do a podcast they come in cut along. I I yeah I oh well. What are you GONNA do. What are you GonNa do so people come to you because they've been everywhere else and and they haven't gotten better. Is that what you see much of the time I think it's very very similar to most of my colleagues that I compare notes with when people have exhausted what conventional medicine or peer natural medicine has to offer that's when they arrive at our doorstep a seeking a integrated medicine approach with a systems biological approach and so do you start right right from scratch do you. I mean obviously if they come bearing a lot of records or lab work or whatnot you're going to you know review goes in an ankle couldn't skews me off of those but do you basically start from scratch with people you have to the fundamental antle truth of. I believe every single patient that I've consulted with is that they are in my office not because they don't have other things to do but it's because they have lost the ability to number one self heal the way the body is designed to through eating the right food taking some herbal medicines or Pathak medicines doing acupuncture you know all the wonderful natural treatments that were on listrik manner but when the body is unable to respond in a dynamic way status when it doesn't so when people fail Conventional Medicine Natural Medicine and most of really conscientious integrated medicine. That's where you really need to be very humble and start listening very very carefully to what are the clues as to why this incredible body is healing machines that stood the course of many many hundreds of thousands of years worth of survival what has failed and what has prevented the body's self healing mechanism and that's essentially what motivated me transition from purely practicing medicine to pursuing nature medicine and what motivated me from purely purely literal. Pathak approach to integrating a lot of the concepts and therapies that Western medicine has to offer 'cause sometimes the body is unable to respond to dynamic invited Listrik medicine like homeopathy acupuncture energy medicine etc right so people stay sick sick. We have to dig deeper. Why do you feel or maybe not why you probably know why but tell us what you do you think is the reason why people stay not well or achieve where they were before. They became sick as well as has. Why do they stay in this chronic inflammatory state. That is the million dollar question so it's the most humbling of my career has been to to realize that people that come to work with us in our clinics they have obstacles to healing so this is a very important. Pathak medicine concept that has stood the test literally from Seventeen Ninety five when Dr Hahnemann started started observing chronic diseases and through very careful documentation has created actually a wonderful list list of items based on some domestic observations what causes the body to be not healing in the modern context the the average person that acquires a condition that they don't heal from literally has too many onslaughts or or insults into short time that they contract from and the average person's experience and this is set with great humility humility but within typically one to two years of time this onslaught from a typically psycho emotional nature. There's usually really some boxes at the problem. There's usually some microbiological infectious insult and then some of the time this physical trauma and you put this into greater framework of the Modern Day American life. I will live where the he essentially the family unit which is the core of safety is not what it used to be so it's not a place of unconditional rest relaxation positive regard anymore way you can have your fight and flight nervous system relax so that the risks digest and he'll system can do its part for you. It is in the context of the nutritional considerations that are by far sub optimal and then certainly and and this has been very rewarding in recent years beyond the infectious burden that most people seem to carry the pass a chronic condition that it doesn't onto self-healing or complaints therapy. There's an enormous amount off modern day toxins that make their way into the body and into the actual cell and that acts as a physical toxic and mechanical obstruct to the cell being able to do what program to do which is to self hugh under ideal conditions this becomes so complex and that's obviously why is called conflicts condition edition and you know it. It's one thing to say to someone sitting in front of you. socially support wise. You really need to focus on this kind of thing but you know people are busy. Most families both parents are working. the children. I feel are pressured to do many more things there you know into too many sports well. I should say too many they're into multiple multiple sport multiple activities and those kinds of things create like you sad more you're stuck in that fight or flight and you're not into the the US digest because people don't have enough time so you have somebody in front of you that you know needs to work on that. Do you give them tools to to help them work on that. As much as we're able to. You know it's not as simple as telling somebody to revamp their life revamped their lifestyle re structure their primary family and extended family relationships so that it is more encode with a cohesive the Mesh of social connectedness in which we should love. It's not as easy to Dell somebody do go on the appropriate diet because it's culturally alterly- foreign for them right now so it is by by definition a highly prioritized and very humble approach where we need to offer a very thorough storrow and complete evaluation we do a significant degree of prioritization of actionable items most of the time it's more more testing and that determines the appropriate medical interventions while at the same time picking the low hanging fruit with regards to diet nutrition optimizing sleep and the digestive tract house and then it is the most beautiful thing to watch when somebody is able to because they're feeling a little too some improved they're actually able to comply with recommendations regarding this that and the other so sometimes tends to be able to bring out people's willingness and ability to change towards the appropriate group redirection right some people have been sick for so long and they have felt that the medical system has failed them and and so now they're listening to something that might be a little different. They really need to to really focus on what you're saying and they need to know. You need to highlight highlight things to patients. Okay your situation. Your increase stress is not good for you and if you can't formulae played the perfect family unit then really you need to start taking care of yourself and then allowing some of this testing which is unfortunately very expensive. We can't do it without the expense and trying to explain to people that you really need to you need to go with this is because the lack of ability you have to enjoy your life is you put a dollar amount on it and especially like you said look for that. You know the low hanging fruit so that you can identify and and certainly some of the testing so you're going to look for. What else are you going to look for in blood work like we could talk about gut testing. You know a lot of people do know about that looking at what's going on specifically in the gut and how you can help that but you know what are you testing for. Are we looking for co-infections. You know a lot of people get tested just for lime but people oh forget to test for the cow infections is that is that a priority very much so you know in my mind. I always have to very very clear the columns off what needs to be known for us to be able to intervene in a constructive manner so call him one and I believe this to be the most important one and this is contrary to Howard trained in both Western and natural medicine schools is what's in the body. That needs needs to be removed. What are the obstructions to award the body's ability to self heal and that's what you're addressing here. It's it's not just the lime disease the triple handful of confections whether they're tick-borne or other victor bone or just community acquired what are the toxicities in the body from true toxins like Mercury in Austin Iq but also biological toxins like mold toxin bacterial toxins and I find that endotoxin or lipopolysaccharide you know so mostly gram negative bacterial cell membranes they tend to also recirculated very effectively is come from people aren't sure what L. P. S. is the lipopolysaccharide where where does that come from so l. p. S. is very anti genyk meaning. These are molecules building blocks of gram negative bacteria that the immune system has learned to very quickly recognize and then because this is life preserving to vigorously respond with an inflammatory response to preserve life but in the chronic context the immune systems now over reaction sustained overreaction is a hindrance so as much as it's not as simple do get the immune system him to just back off and stop behaving appropriately. The reality is that there is a disproportionately high amount of recirculating endotoxin so the the the short answer to your question is it is derived from the intestinal track. Oh okay are an the. It's unfortunately it's not that some simple because this is the reason why a lot of antibiotics antimicrobial focused CBO or ideas protocols work for the duration off the antibiotic but fails miserably absolutely afterward. It's simply because the microbial waste the microbial fragments are fat soluble invests they are very effectively absorbed in the bile and ball absorbs literally to the tune of ninety five to ninety seven percent re-absorption and back into the bloodstream before the bile reaches the column at the Lucielle junction so there's this incredible recycling of fat soluble material both microbial toxins and multiple kness the most important part yet but I find that lbs or endotoxin or gram negative microbial. Mike rubial cell membranes is also reabsorbed so this is a significant hindrance in people knock getting better because their immune system is irritated. Take all the time and in this is if you want to learn more about this my my mentor in this context of stock the Richie Shoemaker from surviving multiple Kong Kong he has done us an incredible justice as a physician researcher to fully elucidate this even with these studies on I know he's more known for his his work in mold and sirs chronic inflammatory response syndrome but the other very important maintaining course for people with chronic conditions including lime is recirculating Salman brains and so that is also a very important 'cause of thirsty. Irs So people come to you. You take a thorough history. You might look at all their labs so you're gonNA do some testing. You're going to look to see if they have of any type of vector borne I don't know how you exactly test. I use my genyk slabs. You're going to be looking at that then. Are you going to be looking at the gut the microbiome yes and that is indicated much of the time so when indicated yes. We do very very thorough reviews of the digestive track the microbiome. I'm delighted. I just found some tests recently that allows us to actually test for blood levels off L. P. Es were circulating. Oh can I do tell in the toxins. It's on one of the Sira panels about yeah and that's Cya rex right correct. Yes Oh that's great. That's great and then the the other very important calm you know in addition to the what is the body contain nine that hinders its function and certainly presents itself as an obstacle or hindrance to self-healing or even responding to treatment the other the side of the columnists that the body doesn't have what needs to be able to heal and this is where most of us are highly highly skilled and educated in terms of what can I provide vied you will it. Can I prescribe for you to help you and these are the minerals vitamins herbs amino acid patrons that are incredibly visible to support system to woods functioning that you do you look in your patients mouths every single patient yes for several reasons. Why do you ask well. It's interesting because your no-one thinks about it. You're like Oh. May I get my teeth cleaned or brush my teeth twice a day. Sometimes I floss whatever but Perry Dont Jill. We'll oral of course. hygiene is critical because that bacteria is going to seep into your bloodstream. It's going you to find its way into the sinuses and bread Dr Bret with Nikki and I did a really really fun interview on Oral Care and how important it is and so I thought maybe I would. I would just challenge you on that one but I failed miserably because you're already well. Merle that yet. Thank you for highlighting that because it is literally one of the you know triple handfuls. aww cornerstones that we use is evaluating. Someone's mouth to see if there's actionable items or again if the mouth presents cents an obstacle to treatment response and to self healing so what we find is that we find enormous amount of failed root canals we find a dental material imperial incompatibilities especially with the metals we find a lot of old and decaying amalgam fillings here sober or mercury fillings we we find gum disease and you know the. I love studying Western medicine for the wisdom that contains and also through to see where this the system is essentially failed to implement the wisdom so everybody knows that if you have strength and you go to the dentist they will give you antibiotics to protect you from rheumatic fever. The Hawk Valves being attacked the joins being an act by essentially immune system getting confused and for a a molecular mimicry situation to lead to the immune system behaving inappropriately because dentists and oral hygiene assists just while they're working on you 'cause leaky gum disease so it awesomely with leaky gut. Here's the leaky gum reality and the the importance again is that one of the more consistent findings in the the amyloid plaques in patients with Alzheimer's disease is that we find not only lying and Helicobacter Pylori Digest as traditionally thought to be digestive Mike Group but we consistently find oral spyro like poor for Ramona's Jolla in the amyloid plaques in Alzheimer's patients so this is not just an association association they appear to be Die Richt contributing factor that causes Alzheimer's disease so I think moreover than the very relevant living a sinus problems linked to dental hygiene. It is a multi systemic problem including audio vascular joint health so again. It sounds sounds like lime. It looks like lime the lime fist positive but the reality is it could be an oral bacteria. That's not necessarily bad. It's just in the wrong place. It could be a minority. That's just track. This is a very it gets confusing. It gets confusing for people who don't the have the knowledge that you have in terms of treating people I think sometimes people go too much towards one thing you know I I've heard the term casting the net and it sounds like when you're dealing with people that are chronically inflamed and and have a lot of issues shoes and they're not getting better for whatever reason you really have to cast that net and you have to look at all the things swimming in that pond right. It's the most wonderful process of investigation and exploration where you need to shift all your preconceived ideas aside and do a thorough literally a blank slate investigation where the beauty of it is that if you listen very very carefully and very quietly to what the patient is verbally telling you to what the patient's symptoms and their body is telling you from physical exam you most of the time get what you need you know. I think people get confused all the time and they say I'm having a hurts reaction. I'm having this Diane off. Is that more like serves. Which is the IRS for anybody who is wondering you know years? I think sirs comes the principals officers come in to die off for action very beautifully because fundamentally we're looking at an immune system that is mounting a an inappropriate create protective response or an inflammatory response from the innate immune system but it's not helpful. The reality is unfortunately when you present went abroad. That's got a systemic infection and with I mean something like lime mycoplasma viral etc that you increase as the amount of circulating microbials Tom Brands that has vigorously stimulating the immune system by anything from ten to two thousand foals they think about the immune system that has a thousand times more cell membranes circulating in the bloodstream as compared to yesterday as a consequence of an antibiotic stick approach and it's an effective antibiotic that does this but here's where the beauty of it comes in is that you need to understand what are the contributing factors to an immune system that is now overreacting doing essentially beneficial unhelpful intervention and I want to emphasize one of my access to grind wind in medicine is via slow so the Hypolito bilberry connection between the body the lymph tissue fluids and blood the patentability outflow of predominantly fat soluble toxins here micro-toxins bacterial toxins and endotoxin the toxin and then getting the immune irritating and Genyk bureau into the majestic track from which you must endeavor to remove it in very very clear minded systematic and deliberate manner with usually we use various types of finders and also so in our clinic in some George restored by clinic. We do colonic hydro therapy with very very good results in helping people break the inflammatory cycle google. I see that that to me is incredible. Do you outside of doing the Cyrus test for the L. P. S. How can you tell that that whole system that you just described is not working correctly. It's a lack of off an appropriate immune relaxation or cessation of inflammation when you have apparently removed the perceived cause of the immune stimulation so you take you encourage somebody to leave a moldy house. Somebody has a lime infection that you prescribe antibiotics. Antibiotics were antibiotic herbs for and they keep on hurting and they keep on demonstrating something self inflammation so one of the contributing factors do that is recirculating. LP's okay. I see I see a great tool that I use in in practice. It's such an elegant symptomatic. Evaluation is a US Dr Horowitz's emceed slam questionnaire. really liked the tool it seems to track very closely with what I humbly observe clinically and then also also the the tool that was created by Richie shoemaker in conjunction with a statistician is the bio toxin symptom cluster analysis which again it's a very very elegant tool that I found to be invaluable in helping to evaluate when there is a biological toxin or healthiest drive to a maintaining sustained condition these questionnaires that you're talking about can people find them via your website or do they need to just go on the ebb and Google. You know what actually I on my living with lime. I do have a link into Dr Horowitz's multi system questionnaire Dr Shoemaker. I'm wondering if that's available eligible people can actually see that and do a comparison. You know it's available on his website surviving mull. It's also I believe. It's available salable in his books. The most important book surviving Mold Okay Okay. That's good you know. I think that it's unfortunate. and I've had this experience myself you end up trying to do the research and you're kinda led down rabbit holes and I have been on many any support groups and these people just are not getting the right level of care. People are like okay well then. Let's just heal your gut and then everything will go away but that's not that's not all it is and people aren't they're either. Finances are tough but you know some of these treatments outside of the Kalanick therapy what else what else do you use. Are you really pro IV say Glutathione Vitamin C. N. What else what else do you find. That's been helpful you know our fund and so many treatments helpful win you apply them at the appropriate situation when the indicating not just symptom but patrons is there so something patron and I find that there are so many silver bullets but a single silver over bullet doesn't correct a condition that has thirty forty fifty different causalities so again. The treatment is highly individualized. It's based on a really thorough symptomatic assessment. It's based on very thorough laboratory investigations. Oh I love the way you say that. That's so sexy water tari. It's so humble. It's it's reasonably time intensive but but then again we're not talking about the person that is able to self heal. We're talking about the person that's really requires a very high degree of not just precision diligence diligence in the putting together a list of factors that prevents the body from from getting business from healing there is no there. There is no one thing there is no sprint. Most of these people have to be patient for this marathon very much so so I I I am highly prejudiced towards natural medicine approaches unless that's not a fault. That's actually a very good thing to really to really be positive towards. I think people neglect the fact act that things are out there that have been utilized for centuries and centuries you know sometimes we don't have the double blind in studies regarding something you're smiling and nodding this is an issue of it's anecdotal but we're looking at patterns. We're looking at what has helped and you know you. Bring that information forward but I'll tell you there are some really critical. Patients is out there that want it in you know writing. They WanNa see these huge studies done with you know a million. Lian people and proof in the pudding but it's not that easy right. You know I agree. Although in recent years there's and explosion of I believe very very high quality research much of it is period viewed on on the influence of natural medicines on the microbes the microbes influence on the immune system and you know I guess let Louis Provide you with an example so back to my little axe to grind bile flow and the importance of the liver bile flow mechanism to remove offensive material from the blood and thus the immune system so I found studies from the nineteen eighties nine thousand nine hundred and then also I believe from the Twenty Ten to twenty the thirteenth era where they literally inject E. coli cell membranes into some Kook fluffing the battery animal probably rats mice or something like that and they measure to see what happens with the immune system and how much you can get the immune system to mount an an inflammatory reaction and then they start providing these animals with more bile some just put more into the Diet that directly increases bile flow guess what happens you get more effective myself formation which a little fat droplets that into which dissolves the cell membranes and that exits the bloodstream into the Rochester track and unfortunately that may be reabsorbed especially. If there's a leaky gut situation the second scenario is same kind of experimental design except for you. Stop confusing fat into these people so it's called interloop it. It's about twenty percent twenty to thirty percents soy fat depending on which one to two percent foster that'll choline in derived from egg yolks and guess what the same thing happens is by putting more fat droplets into the bloodstream you can shuttle out the immune irritating rotating endotoxin. Isn't this a most elegant approach to a her climber reaction or a serious reaction by virtue of it just supporting the appropriate physiological channels that the body has used for hundreds of thousands millions of years to dealing with the so I I I do find that it would be nice to have rigorous scientific data on the natural medicine agents that we use but I think also the reality is the nature of chronic conditions is so complex in terms of the multi ideological multi symptom and multi body. I systems involvement that designing beautiful research like for example Dr Phil Bredesen's is a pioneer in this field is to use the scientific vic principles towards complex conditions that is not just a single stimulus response analysis so I can't say it more elegantly than he does is that instead of trying to use a silver bullet or a single from acidic approach. Let's have a shot on full of silver bullets and take care of these conditions. That sounds fascinating. That sounds fascinating. You'll have to share with me where all that research is. I don't know if it's on pubmed and people oh can look for that. You know what the problem is. Sometimes it's the it's the verbiage that you use if you don't write the exact search words you don't find what you want so that's important so pupil shouldn't just give up if if they're really interested in finding more about out this okay so so we've got very important listen to the history second we've got let's look at what possibility is in the body. Let's look at a variety of things. We're not just looking for line. We'll keep calling factions. We might be looking for mold toxicity. We probably looking for L. P. S. We want to find out if the person has you know excess amount of that and then we've got to start our protocols. We have to start okay. Where do you start. Do you start always with the infections. Do you start with the dea start with you know adding digestive enzymes times in a phospholipid a coaling. What how do you start and? I know what you're GONNA say. You're going to say cindy every patient's different we we have to go with what that patient needs. I but ideally if you have someone that meets more or less the standard criteria unless pretend we all meet the standard criteria what is next. I think next is find the low hanging fruit in somebody with dental infections actions send them to the dentist or the biological benefits to take care of that if there's gum disease addressed that if there is unfortunately all too common one if there's accessible mold exposure at home at work in your car your place of worship you must take care of the mold exposure if there's active infections so for example if you're hearing be cyclical patterns off take on relapsing fever or it gets Llosa's or since since then take care of that in a way that is appropriate for the situation for the patient's level of vitality their level off essentially the ability to burden pay the burden of the response and if you can think of Harwood's is sixty six point plan you know if they're sixteen nails in in your foot see how many of those nails you can pull out so that at least you can take some of the the pain and the Antigen examination out it. I find that a systems biology approach is the most sensible thing like I said. If you listen very carefully the body tells you where to start taught and typically. It's those areas that make the most noise that are the most bothersome the the areas through which the body lets you know that there's disharmony money in the system so I think that's a very important thing and then unfortunately the reality is that there are so many patients that now have asper the CDC website to brush yourself. This is a a term that is currently thought to be offensive and not good but I want to shine light on this I want to arid out and sun this on Sept and validated and it's post treatment lyme syndrome old that says is that you you haven't applied a very thorough very methodical systems approach to this person and yes you know you've beaten to death with years of antibiotics but you haven't tended the rest of the patients system and I find one of the most useful guides and this is a researcher that I respect tremendously Dr Robert Navio and the cell danger response so he's published three papers since about twenty fourteen fifteen fifteen through to last year when the eighteen that studies the commonalities between patients with various chronic fatigue associated conditions from lyme disease mold illness fibromyalgia autism asperger's Alzheimer's etc and again it demonstrates the incredible wisdom of our biology and that's why I mentioned earlier. We are survival and healing machines but only when we're able to so Dr Nephews findings is that when the system is insulted by various insults so inflammatory toxic Nick psycho-emotional traumatic mechanical The system sell goes into a default survival response and eat them that the cell danger injure response and it involves several changes I'll just name a few to be easy on time but the Mike Andrea literally change range from being beautiful elongated energy production machines. That's in a Mesh of filaments where they consume oxygen and in the presence of calories oxygen you produce. ATP FOR ENERGY THE CONTRACT becomes smaller through a process of vision and more dense than they get clumped together and they consume oxygen to form Ros reactive oxygen species as an and attempt to prevent ingress of viruses bacteria into the Seltzer. It's a protective mechanism. The Cell Membrane which is one of the key the elements in what I believe is to be the new medicine for chronic conditions and for certainly the next generation is that when the cell sal goes into the survival response the self preservation response the cell membrane becomes stiff and waxy instead of being very very elegant and semi fluid semi permeable or selectively permeable barrier between the inside of Sahlin the outside of the cell it becomes waxy and Steph again to provide a more robust structural barriers to the entry of microbes and you're talking about spells everywhere. You're not talking. One set of cells people have to understand were trillions of cells all over our body. We'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsors. Botanical medicines are an important part of the integrative Lime Disease Program Bio Sidon from biomedical over technical research is a professional strength broad based program that has been extensively researched for effectiveness as nutricia support in live and code affections asked her practitioner sure about bio siding. LSF AND VISIT BIO SIDON DOT COM master supplements specializes in probiotic enzymes and fiber that support digestion their products provide results that you can feel working within sixty days or money back guarantee. Their staff is available to help you decide which product programs right for you visit. MASTER HYPHEN SUPPLEMENTS IMPLEMENTS DOT COM or call eight hundred nine six two nine six one for more info do you do you feel that people have a weaker point where their chain is. You know if we've got a chain. We've got maybe a weaker link so that's why some people have a whole lot more generalized unrealized fatigue or people have a whole lot more brain fog and difficulty with concentration or people end up with a whole lot of constipation diarrhea gut issues or joint issues that is the beautiful individuality the interplay between your genetic susceptibility and the environment so for example somebody that has history of head trauma and multiplicity with for example lime you will expect that they would have significant pecan cognitive deficit but perhaps not so much body pain and yet they've got lyme disease that joins a fine the next person who has dental problems uh-huh and history of camping. Giardi ah you better believe they're going to have more digestive symptoms and perhaps more joint problems because of the history so I find this. Is this incredibly beautiful interplay between your genetic predisposition and the environmental pressure that brings it out so we're talking about epigenetics here and that's what I was alluding to so if you go back to why doesn't somebody respond what is blocking them from responding the treatments that quite frankly help seventy. Ad Sometimes ninety percent of patients it is the epigenetics meaning at the at the high level view this this is the factors outside of the genome or the DNA that affects how the DNA gets expressed and translated but also how the cell membrane membrane works and how the conrail response so these are again. It's it's a very very beautiful in complex new area of study in which what you think your life experiences the learned behaviors from your you're not just direct family but from your influences it changes changes the way the DNA gene regions get switched on and switched off in other words. If you will express a pro inflammatory inflammatory or an anti inflammatory by off genetic transcription the next set that is incredibly incredibly valuable for the post treatment lyme disease or chronic fatigue fibromyalgia at patient population is studying environmental mental chemicals that make its way into the cell and thus present a a real either chemical and toxic obstruction into the cell generating energy in the Michalak Andrea as in inhibitors of the enzymes but also much more exciting than that is that we are detecting detecting environmental chemicals becoming DNA abducts so we typically find is that for somebody that has multiple chemical sensitivities that we have organophosphate or plastics or petrochemicals depending on their exposure a lot of heavy metals stuck the gene regions that actually code for GM wants to find this transfer or the soccer chrome people fifty nine systems which means on around the inasmuch as DNA can be likened to a CD where there's information on the CD and if the CD he has played really beautiful music song four is your favorite one especially when you're up mood but now somebody has put super glue on Song Four uh-huh and you put it in the CD player just makes noise and that's what we find happens in the cells and in the nucleus of people's bodies that are not responsive to self care and good medicine anymore because the cell is structurally physically unable to do that and then we also fund. Oh I'm sorry go ahead. Go ahead ahead. y'All so find we also find that the cell membrane is an enormously important part of senator function in so again referring to the work of Dr Lipton Dr Bruce Lipton he's a highly cell biologist but also moving into the area of quantum physics and maybe even mysticism but as a cell biologist he realized that you can take a cell of a single celled organism so here a somatic cell of the body and you can very carefully removed the DNA and the nucleus and that's all will move on and live for three more months without hindrance unless the environment changes and you need new data to be able to translate but if you enzyme ethically change changed the proteins in the cell membrane so here the way that the cell communicates with the external world and response to the the changing requirements off the environment if you damage the the untenable of the cell so to speak the Trans Membrane and the inner inner membrane proteins that cell becomes just a blob of south of pleasant and it is witnessed unable to respond to the environment and the Die Shuki ofter so the point. I'm trying to make is that we find that there's an enormous amount of toxins stuck to our cell membranes which are both water and fat loving so we get a very diverse nature of fat soluble and Water Soluble Toxins on cell membranes and that is I think one of the fundamental obstacles do People Abo- getting better beyond a certain point from treatment of lyme or heavy metals or whatever chronic condition because again the cells are unable to respond to the the now that the patient doctors working very hard to create a healthy environment cell is unable to send us and this is where phospholipids therapy be comes in as one of the most beautiful owners to epigenetics challenges that the cells face right because the really really really assist because there's a term and tell me if I'm going in the right direction autophagy yes because that's a a cellular suicide and it's a very benign process because it's it's a little stamp the semester cell that needs to be in touch with the environment than when it is unable to serve the the brain with a kidney or the heart or the hawks conduction system well anymore. It needs to looks really just in a benign way push self-destruct and makes space for new cells that can function properly and again so referring back to the woke of Dr Robert Navio and the cell danger response is again if you think about a cell that is now leaking. ATP which is part of maintaining a danger signal the the cells membranes are stiffen waxy in other words good things nutrients hormones oxygen from the environment does not enter the cell as readily as it it should seller toxins aren't able to exit what you have on. The inside of the cell is not just a cell that is toxic nick that doesn't make energy properly on the outside of the cell. The cell isn't able to understand and to measure that this patient and this patient doctor teen is working really hard to create ideal conditions for recovery so guess what happens you get post. Treatment Line Syndrome with the cells are unable to do. He'll it's unable to exit so this is a incredibly important next focus off medicine awesome both laboratory investigations and also therapy in that we're learning how not just repair the cells by removing the microbes by removing the DACHSHUNDS DACHSHUND's by structurally repairing the my country by rebuilding the cell membrane with proper patterns of nutrients and then we need to signal to sell that the coast does this clear you have survived you may exit and live freely again without the hindrance off acidity infection inflammation and that is the next challenge. Lynch on this frontier of medicine that function so I have a question. I've never heard it explained that way. It is clear lear when you start to repair and you are working on a process that you have determined will be perfect for this is patient all of the cells that are injured and you can't get things out. You can't get things in our those damaged for ever I so you're waiting for those to die off while you try to prepare all the newer cells that are happening in being generated. You're trying to give them the appropriate the environment so what I'm basically saying is because we're constantly turning over our body all of our cells regenerating and we're supposed to lose sales like you said the old cells need to go red blood cells last one hundred and twenty days and then they don't function well at Cetera so so my question question is are you preparing the body for the newer cells to assist those or are we just read able to help these old cells that are really damaged. I think it's both and this is basically just my opinion based on observations. I don't have any hard data for this but if you think of a cell that is not very damaged. It's it's in a state of reasonable repair and response to the right patterns of nutrients it responds to the regeneration of to Michael Andrea and the rebuilding of the Salman Brain. I think that's L will probably end up serving the organism wealth and I think the opposite is also true. You know some cells that are somewhat senescence to start with. They may very well when you have them in a state of reasonable repair and cell signaling. I think this is the most important thing is regulatory three signaling off not just organs but the cells that sound may very well go into a doses and make space for stem cells to actually take their place. I see so when you get these cells that are dying off. Is that also a mechanism to cause inflammation. I think thanks so but on the whole because this process of cellular healing happens in very closely controlled environment. Where did we are able to very very quickly? Remove the worn out cell fragments the microbes that are released so interest alert pathogens like Epstein Barr Boston Nella mycoplasma etc and the puck societies from the lifetime's accumulation and if you're closely monitoring and managing the situation again the liver bile flow and out mechanism awesome service patients very well so they don't have to get so sick. I just right right again. It's very very complicated. So you know we've Kinda. Run the gamut. We know that it's important to get a thorough evaluation. Then we know we need to start a plan of care her and we're starting with the low hanging fruit and we know that ending on the type of invasion that we have the chain with the Weakest Link so to speak that people are going to have a variety of different symptoms so we've we've gotten through that e the end your treatment approach so let's let's just talk a little bit more about how you utilize homeopathy geography and then let's get into the development of of your your product line because it's quite amazing I have my very first patient on your protocol right now and yeah yes so. I'll have to let you know how how she does. Yeah Yeah so so wait a minute. What did I just ask you. I ask about homeopathy yeah so tell me tell me about these. He's you know the practice that you have of homeopathy and how how that works I mean obviously went to school for six years for it. That's right yeah we're not. I'M GONNA learn that in in a podcast but but give us the points you know people respond to homeopathy again when they are able to and I think this was is one of my main observations when I the best patients I've had because they were able to respond was ahead of dairy cows which I did research for traffic prophylaxis offer mastitis in dairy cows really yeah and they responded tremendously the trial group that I used fight fight for lack of two hundred C. Four had a over a hundred a period of time. I had three hundred cows in the in the group they he had a seventy. I think it wasn't the mid seventies percent reduce the incidence of acuteness status as a cons- consequence of a single homeopathic medicine that received on a daily basis now the difficulty with homeopathy isn't. I'll use the cows as an as an example is the medicines have to be very carefully chosen. Do Do have a multi assistance effect so in this case I had very very clear discussions with the both the farmer the dairyman and also with the cowboys that observed the capital on a daily basis. I put together some compassion for the heard and and based on that I selected the Pathak medicine that covered the symptoms really well so these ladies could respond to treatment and they did in in somebody with stressed out life that drinking too much caffeine. They eat a diet that is inflammatory. It's devoid off the appropriate batons of nutrients. They don't sleep enough. They have dental abscesses. You get the picture right. It's bad is a bad picture that body and and that system doesn't path number one the appropriate amount of vitality to respond to this beautiful system homeopathic old constitution constitutional national homeopathy and therefore they don't even if you select very very carefully chosen medicine in addition they sometimes get aggravations to treatment because because the body tries to detoxify the system it tries to engage with the chronic infections when it doesn't have the resources either do start the job or north to deal with the ducks society that ensues will the inflammatory actions so in our chronic patient base much of the time they just simply don't respond respond or certainly not favorably to the the single amoebic medicine approach that comes later after we've cleaned healed the cells they tend to have the ability to respond to beautiful classical homeopathy what I use more commonly now is homeopathy that is focused I on specific organs specific patrons of some comes that indicates specific remedy and this is more in the you again in the homeopathic world we call this number one the French pluralistic system where you use an acute medicine for example you used by donor for conditions dishes that are red hot and burning and really acute the pace is very quick and you can have a temporarily very satisfactory response response and then you follow it up with more of an organ system based or a constitutional type medicines Monica or posted villa or even a A. I am is magic medicine what we find the most useful in our chronic patients is the German organ based medicines and these other companies he's like Pch F- Econo- and other companies that make medicines for deliver for the kidneys or fallen fattest drainage rich for example and that tends to serve patients much better because you can use the homeopathic medicine to change Oregon behavior or or cysts body systems behavior without using excessive chemical so we find in our sensitive patients that just sensitive to interventions or in the multiple chemical sensitivity portion of patients that they respond extraordinarily well to this approach and then of course children animals in animals respond beautifully to up. I know they don't have any preconceived notion right. You know there's that but also I think their vitality is better later their cellular machinery that you can guide and redirect with homeopathy is is much more responsive right. They're resilient right so let's talk about the development of your new protocols your supplements. It's a wonderful return healthy yeah. Let's talk about it. Let's how how did this happen. Where did this come from and what what is it about. It's it's about me wanting to make a positive impact on how chronic diseases are approached. There's several different angles do it. That I think is enormously important. I I started recognizing with a more focused patient population so in other words not not doing family medicine where you see a diverse platter of conditions on a daily basis you see similar patrons of problems that need similar interventions on a many times per day basis and I started realizing that many of my patients patients need and thus receive an adrenal support formula that helps with resilience towards environmental and other stressors and many of my patients need an immune support and balancing formula and instead of having patients will out with two or three different formulas I I decided because of the beautiful intersection in those two arenas within natural medicines that lend themselves really well towards helping to facilitate not just the ADRENAL system but resilience towards internal and external stressors and challenges though same hurts also tend to lend themselves saw very well towards both balancing and also boosting the immune system in a way that is appropriate for our chronic patients so I combine these this intersection action of herbs and named it hopefully appropriately adaptive immune so the thinking behind every every single formula that we create is that number one we are sincerely compensating for a natural medicine or dietary supplement lament industry that hasn't really done as federal job at purposing medicine and specifically for our line and chronic fatigue and chronic disease patient base and thus it takes literally a bucket full of supplements took. All the priorities covered an in the same way. If you think of the efforts patient with complex infectious profile you know they've got the embar and perhaps recurring shingles so here goes viral protocal they have intracellular pathogens like Mycoplasma Baltin election omitted pneumonia and then they also have abyssinia and lime and this patient is probably going to receive three four or five different natural antimicrobial strategies again combining these agents Indu sensible form we list that is that's a very diverse utility and using more concentrated forms of the herbs where appropriate so that you can have a potent broad-based if I dare say broad spectrum herbal approach for these challenges. I'm so again that's how the herbal biotic supplement came about and then in certain areas it was simply out of frustration gratien that I created supplements for example our Artemisia Product. I was discontent. My impression was that the the existing Artemisia products on the market when using weren't working well enough they went potent enough and then quite frankly my impression was they were overpriced and thus unsustainable on sustainable so what I did is I went back to the drawing board and I put together a product with a higher level of optimism and per capsule. I combined it with the whole herb which so many research papers from studying using wormwood powder room with TV deformed Leiria in especially West Africa indicates that the whole herb extra extracts the whole her combinations were much better than the extracts in Sydney optimism or are tested in the context that again. You're dealing with a very complex medicine. It's not just a single ingredient ingredient medicine to which the microbes can develop resistance baton so again in the Artemisia Trinity Product with got the optimism an-and which is a four hundred one extract extract. We've got a thirty two one artemisia concentrate. We've got the wormwood herb powder so the whole herb and then also I put the Artemisia Amelia essential in there which smells gorgeous by the way I'm so again it's a four Artemisia product the capsule that comes to work rather well and because it seems like the whole harp has some anti-inflammatory properties. We don't get very we will not as significant. irks reactions do this formula so again. That's another example of the thinking that goes into creating of the the return healthy formulas. What else is in there. I know that we have a foundation formula that includes Japanese knotweed and cats climb. I correct that's correct yeah so again with the foundation formula. I created based on the incredible work of Steve Brunner who you if you don't know him. He is in an incredible human being let alone somebody has blessed the chronic condition treating physicians and impatience with wonderful research and insights into the treatment so the foundation formula is based on Steve Units Core Protocal so it contains as neuro protective and deep deep anti inflammatory effect the Japanese knotweed for the virtual content it has progresses for for the purpose of being a wonderful anti beryllium agent but also anti-inflammatory it does wonderful the innate immune system also very strongly detoxifying to deliver anti Viral Anti Microbial Anti Fungal it also contains missile as a detoxification support and and then to help with energy resilience stamina it also depends liberal caucus and then cuts clue as a deal purpose connective tissue protectant it is also as we as you know an anti Beret Leo and microbial strategy but also most exhilarating about catskill is that it significantly attenuates immune reactions when the immune system is stimulated by cell membranes so again it's gotten anti her eric's component to it which makes the foundation formula an incredibly important cornerstone of any person with a chronic condition ambition so you have your general general protocol has how many if if you have someone that had you know just this conflict city of issues how many tablets per se how how many bottles it is in this protocol that you use so. I I put together a foundational protocol which we call the foundation. Dacian plan that covers the most important and so the most important and most commonly encountered challenges that the chronic patient faces and this includes lime and for the most part bipartisan illness as well so it has the foundation formula which we just reviewed it contains the herbal biotic as a I believe a very exciting a broad spectrum herbal on answer to the microbial challenges it contains the immune due to the very high degree off patients having immune and also adrenal and and resistance distress problems. Bio assist is a multi organ support formula and again. Here's the context is the chronic patient has lymphatic congestion. They've got liver sluggishness explicity. They need bile flow support. They need kidney support. The Olympics is congested as I said the needs stimulation to drain the the system and then a lot of patients has something that looks and feels like CBO or I B S and if you look what's above that it's again it's vegas system that is not functioning while to instruct the organs to function properly eh so again to compensate for an ultimate nervous system and balance the bio assists in addition to stimulating the organs that we discussed it also contains uh-huh bottle flow agents it contains fennel and ginger and bitter herbs that stimulates the upper digestive correct especially towards improving secretions and also contractions and then the final and fifth component of this foundational protocol that helps people compensates for the challenges of chronic conditions is binder blend and this is by far our most popular and most well. I believe successful strategy so far because it is a broad based binder formula that binds various classes of chemicals michaels the tend to be problematic to chronic patients so again. We've got charcoal. We've got Lorella Organic Lorella. We've got a small amount of Internet Klay. A we've got cotton and they're also calcium silicate so between the this hand food of herbs we have a wonderful combination off off agents that bind not just out PS and endotoxin but according to animal studies and what we observed an patients it's very effective at binding finding microbial toxins multiseason in addition to metals and Modern Day chemicals like bitter chemicals plastics things like that right. The Silica is real important to pull that aluminum out and we know a lot about aluminum being terribly toxic to the brain indeed I know and I'm always always after people you gotta get rid of the per- sprints you know I'd rather you sweat a little bit and just use a deodorant so that you're not so little smelly but but what have you so well to discourage people from excessive use of personal care products is there is a really cool study from England where they did a a measure of well cut to the chase is young men that are apparently healthy. There is a inverse the relationship between the amount of personal care products that they use and their sperm counts so we won't deodorants and aftershaves and and things that you put on your body on your skin on your clothing the lower your sperm count so all I need to say as well you do the math backward. What does it take to drop your uh-huh sperm count and I've had really wonderful compliance. Believe you me in patients that are rather attached to their off. The shave audio drains etc well. I'm Gonna I tell you. I think what we'll get to them. Even more is if you talk about erectile dysfunction because maybe they're going to say this is a perfect way for me not to get my you know oh my wife pregnant or my girlfriend pregnant a lower my sperm count now wash up with all this stuff but that's but that's that's very interesting and you know this the the whole thing about the the herbs and I'm GonNa put you on the spot here. Where do you get your formulations from are there. Are you know organic farmers. Are you know how and where do you get all your your ingredients. As much as we're able to we source them from a organic place or wild crafted but inasmuch as that sometimes doubles or triples the cost off off the formula and therefore that beautiful organic formula is unable to serve the recipient the line patient that really needs it for for a long enough time for them to get the benefit from the treatment we conscientiously source our products through a GM be certified professional supplement manufacturing facility that takes a great deal of care to sources from the cleanest sources but also and this is really important and court to the philosophy of return healthy treatments must be sustainable so that patients that have not been able to work they had an incredible amount of expense spence trying to overcome their condition and they don't have much disposable income left that they can sustain a course of care for a long enough time so so again. It's a very very practical approach to modern day solution where it's wonderful to have a wild crafted and organic. OMAROSA policy but I found that my my patients tend to not use it for long enough time right because it yet right. Money is always an issue when you're talking about length of treatment what kind of length of treatment men is an average person going to need it depends on very many variables the average patient that uses a comprehensive hints of course of care that addresses the various observed hindrances or obstacles to the healing requires anything from one typically. I think think a decent average is about two years of intervention by some patients in which they've had the condition for a long time or the nature of the infections the boxes such that it just takes time it can be longer okay all right so people just have to play in the head for that and then. I'm sure that they're going to need addition additional supplementation or nutrition guidances. That's really important because you have to. You have to give the the body back what it needs. It has to have all of these additional tools but it makes its sound so much better. I mean people have gazillions of supplements that they that they need or that. They think that they need because they're not guided correctly and and whatnot you so. Is your formulas available to to people in general or do they need to go through a practitioner. Both we've got a very very user friendly and leave the platform that physicians and practitioners can half hour formulas in their clinic so that they may provide patients with the appropriate formula on an as needed immediate basis we also have a very very easy to access informative if patient portal where in this context they won't be patients. They will be the public that need the products for their own. Ah Dietary supplementation for these conditions can purchase the product there is a sufficient shouldn't amount of guidance on the Internet on the website available to guide people so that they may appropriately purchase the products that are appropriate for them and and if anybody is maybe a little frustrated because we don't provide a them with an enormous amount of information we do our utmost to comply hi with FDA regulations that is very very clear that we may not diagnose or treat outside of the context of the physician Orthopedist patients relationship and is there to protect the public against unscrupulous practices so within the this wonderful at guidelines that the FDA has provided us. We've tried to do our best to provide the public basis with lime and chronic conditions guide them through the correct herbal and natural products that may benefit them. That's that's very very good and nice to know that you're making making this available to people who really want to give it a whirl again. You know I'm just going to emphasize the fact that it's not just a month or two two of utilizing this protocol. It may take you several months to to have an improvement. It's always good to work with a support person. You know whether so you have a health coacher whether you have a practitioner we're always available at pursue wellness. You can look up pursue assu wellness dot. US Yeah we really really really liked to utilize things that help the person. We don't WanNa give somebody so much that they're too frustrated. They don't want to take any more things and they don't want to stop. You know Oh Gosh don't make me stop one more thing the only eating lettuce so you know you need that appropriate guidance and we're always available to help so. I can't even imagine the work you have put in for all of this. It is it's incredible. It's incredible and I think a lot of people are going to be really happy. pity to hear about your formulation and your protocol because again you've made it easy. You've combined things. You've added things that you know go back to nature and were not destroying a cells. Were actually helping all your all the cells with your with your products. and I really encourage people who are on antibiotics and they've been on a little while. Maybe they've been on a long time to move over to an herbal herbal protocol to sustain or maybe it you're in -biotics haven't really worked well. Maybe it's time to make that change and go into an herbal protocol. McCall Deerfield the same as I just said I agree you know. Sometimes the antibiotics are unable to address the full spectrum trim of microbial challenges and then like we discussed quite thoroughly earlier. Sometimes the antibiotics have worked and is working wells bust breath. There's not a decalcification strategy on board so you've got an immune system. They're still reacting to the cell membranes of the now dead microbes and the immune system is still displaying that it's contacting a microbe and the interpretation is before antibiotics with real interpretation is if you need need support unit immune balancing. We need a recess the system thank you so much for everything that you just taught me and all the people you care for and all the people that are listening and well listen to this podcast because it was extremely dreaming informative. It was well laid out. It's easy to understand and I'm sure everybody enjoyed your accent so thank okay. That's most gracious. It's a labor of love and the calling of a lifetime so it's been wonderful. Thank you Sunday. Oh you've been more than delightful to talk within for for all of you. Please come back again. listen and enjoy and give me some feedback you can email me at living with lime dot. CK AT G MAIL DOT COM for information more information about our practice. You can find us at her sue wellness dot. US and all of a Dr Warner's information is on my page living with debt. US almost forgot what it was again and down all of his links are there too so certainly look them up. and it's been a pleasure serving all you people. Thank you so much. Take Okay Care. Thank you for listening to another episode of living with Lime. We'd like to take another moment to thank our sponsors. Botanical medicines are important part of an integrative lime disease program program Bio Sidon from bio. Botanical research is a professional strength broad spectrum formula that has been extensively researched for effectiveness as nutritional support in live and co-infections. Chins University studies have shown that this combination of plant medicines is also effective in biofilms that may be hampered treatment as well as providing broadly acting herbal support the life of Soma form of bio side called bio side and LSF is used by line literally physicians such as Dr Richard Horowitz and Dr Jill Carnahan ask your practitioner about bio side the LSF and visit bioscience dot com for more information masters supplements does living with live ever get overwhelming and finding the right support seem difficult well master supplements can help master supplements specializes in probiotics enzymes at fiber that helps support digestive in health during and after antibiotics master supplements products provide results that you can feel working working with a sixty day money back guarantee. Their staff is available to help you decide which products and programs are right for you. Master supplements is dedicated to science based products with the highest a standards of quality control visit Master Hyphen Supplements Dot Com for more information or call and talk to a team member at eight hundred nine two six two nine six six one. That's master hyphen supplements DOT COM or eight hundred nine two six two nine six one. Thanks so much again for listening to living with line. We'd like to remind Mike that if you have not done so already please subscribe to the podcast. You can visit our website at living with wine dot. US make sure you don't miss any episode until until next time. Thank you so much for listening and we'll Sud- with a new episode.