5 Episode results for "Lisa Tilly"
"From the center for investigative reporting m._p._r. X. is real. I'm l. Let this month to to mass. Shootings happened within hours of each other over. Thirty people were killed. Afterwards people asked familiar question. How could this be happening reading today. We're going to be tackling that question by looking at how a group of people with extremist ideas embraced violence to get their way and how their beliefs leafs spread and in some ways become more dangerous. The story takes us back to january two thousand sixteen. The sun is shining in the sky but the air is frigid in a small oregon town man in a cowboy hat and a thick winter flannel climbs up a snow bank at the edge of a grocery store parking lot and calls out to a crowd of his supporters. I'm asking you to follow me and go to the merrier national wildlife refuge and we're gonna make a harsh stand. That's ammon bundy. He's short speech on that snow. Bank kicked off a six week armed standoff with the federal government in a remote bird sanctuary in the middle of winter. It's crucial social. They you understand what's going on here. What this issue is truly about. It's about our federal government taking over private property. This is bundy's second armed standoff. He and his supporters believed that the federal government has no right to public lands and should turn them over to the states amens father cliven cliven bundy had for decades us public land to graze his cattle but refused to pay the federal fees in twenty fourteen. The federal government came to collect elect and that ended in the first armed standoff with the bundys at their ranch in bunkerville nevada. We take you back to the standoffs because they lead directly to our story today. How anti-government groups and individuals surface to support the bundy's didn't go away when the bundy's did instead over over the past few years people within those groups have become more emboldened and willing to use violence to get what they want today. We're teaming up with the podcast has bundy ville produced by oregon public broadcasting and long rates to see how the violence that started with the bundys has spread bonnevilles hosts. Lisa tilly joins me now now. Elliot hey has gone so before we get to season to remind us what happened to the bundy's after those two standoffs came to an end both of those ended ended with these trials that a lot of critics would say the government botched so with the nevada case. They ended in a mistrial in oregon. They ended in acquittals for for the bundy brothers and their co-defendants so what's motivating the bundy's. How did they get to the point of the first standoff. I think to understand the bundy family family you kind of have to understand that where they come from. There's a real kind of anti-government sentiment that a lot of people share you can look to <hes> when the mormons came west in eighteen hundreds <hes> part of the reason they did that was to get away from the federal government but then the government came to them and sort of started this idea that a lot of mormons in that area feel that they were persecuted for their religion by the government so all of this kind of led to cliven and bundy's standing off with the government in two thousand fourteen saliha how those religious beliefs cut of drive this this confrontation with the federal government the bundy's hold a pretty specific set of fringe religious beliefs that a lot of mormons would not agree with and in fact the mainstream mormon church in salt lake city wouldn't agree with so so my reporting led me to this thing called the white horse prophecy which is basically this kind of urban legend among mormon communities that that that some people believe joseph smith the prophet of the church told <hes> early mormons that they would settle in the rocky mountains and that one day the u._s. Constitution solution would hang by a thread and it would be up to the mormon people to save that from ruin now. The church in salt lake doesn't think this is actually a real prophecy but the the bundy family does and a lot of other people in these kind of anti-government communities also believe that they believe that their fight against the government is them actually saving being the constitution from ruin so where do the bundy's motivations and beliefs overlap with other groups that you've been tracking sense. If you look at the the anti-government anti-government movement you might remember things like ruby ridge and the waco standoff with the branch davidians and both of those events ended and people dying hang at the hands of the government a lot of those were kids so the anti-government groups use those instances as recruitment tools times when they can say look look the federal government will come after people who live differently or do things their own way and they kind of turn a blind eye to the laws that were being broken and by those people involved in ridge in waco so those events really informed cliven bundy and his belief that the government was after people so then when they came him to collect his grazing fees he was seeing it as just the next chapter of ruby ridge and waco but more recent turning point happened at the second bundy standoff there was a shooting of one of the leaders of the occupation and that's going on to inspire people to this day yeah that man that was killed during the occupation was a guy named la voie finicky so during the occupation authorities had orchestrated a traffic stop in a rural area wi- with no cell reception where they could easily arrest the leaders of the occupation so he pulled over these two cars and they arrest ammon bundy arrest several other people but lavoix finicky <hes> decided to drive away from that traffic stop and actually tried to blow through a roadblock drive around it into the snow and then he he jumped out of the car all of that was caught on tape and you narrate for us in the first season of bundy ville the scene picks up right after the voi- finnick jumps out of his car and warning. This is tape of a police shooting. Someone fires two shots that hit the truck. He stumbles through knee-deep snow. It keeps shouting. His hands are up at first then he reaches for his jacket. Pocket inside is loaded handgun. He he puts his hands up again and he reaches hands up reach. Finally police do shoot him. He never managed to grab the gun. So investigators released this video and in two different vantage points one was aerial real footage from a law enforcement drawn. The other was taken by smartphone by people inside the cab of the truck so watching that video you see everything unfold. I'd like you there. How did this incident add more fuel to the fire for the anti-government movement well. The response was almost immediate. <hes> shortly after the shooting a memorial popped up at the snowbank where people who supported the bundy's in the anti-government movement talked about it like it was a murder or an assassination or kind this carefully orchestrated hit <hes> by the government on on a member of the patriot movement even though it was so clear from that footage that you saw these two angles and he saying you're going to have to shoot shoot me that that it was unjustified police shooting so in his death i really found in my months even years of investigation that it it becomes really intertwined in with the militia groups in these anti-government groups that showed up at the bundy's standoffs and it became this target for their anger and that's where you pick up with season two tracking those other groups tells a little about them like who they are and what are they doing sure at both of the bundy's high profile standoffs you saw groups like the oath keepers which is one of the largest most well-known militias across the country came to their side. You saw another militia group called the three percenters chapters chapters from nearby states coming to their side on my reporting. I started to see these other threats picking up of white supremacy and violence in these ideologies that had been there long before these two standoffs. I think it's important to note that groups like the oath keepers were actually in charlottesville taking and the side of the old rate during the protests that happen there yeah and i think if it these are groups that generally wouldn't be very fired up about ranching rightly the bundy's sort of provided a great platform to fight the government and that's often. I think what the takeaway that my reporting has found is that it's it has very little to do with the the constitution has very little to do with ranching oftentimes is just looking for new ways to fight off the government and to kind of force <hes> a a belief system like what we saw it at charlottesville on display that's lee host of the podcast series bundy ville so how does that belief system mm-hmm inspire violence when we come back lee investigates that by heading to the scene of a bombing in the fateh mcconnell explosive. That's coming up on reveal from the center for investigative. Reporting impe are ex <music> you from the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. viz is reveal ville. I'm outlet today. Were teaming up with the creators of the podcast bundy ville from oregon public broadcasting and long rates their second season dropped a couple of weeks ago and they're investigating some acts of domestic terror that connected to the bundy's supporters season two begins with a bombing in the summer of twenty sixteen that i bet you never heard of a warning before we get started. This story contains some violent scenes his money ville host lisa tilly panetta is this gravelly town on the nevada side of the border with utah about three hours north of las vegas a desert outpost that was founded in the eighteen sixty s by mormon pioneers panetta is god country and such a western cliche that i literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle tolls street not much happens here but that wasn't the case on july thirteenth two thousand sixteen nine one one. What is your emergency. Hello ma'am ma'am cake for me. Okay and i i can barely hear. You said he was gonna kill you. He said he's calling explosives. You can't are you away from the home. Mm-hmm tiffany cluff was inside her house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was going to blow her house up she should get the kids and leave and demand then lit the fuse on the bomb he'd put inside. The house walked to his car. Got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head and then everything blew up <music> shrapnel went everywhere curving in long arcs over the town just down the street. The county sheriff's black black smoke and a mushroom cloud billowing into the sky just a moment but i do need conditional information from the okay here. Also she cooks. We have one dispatcher time. She calls back in jail any book it right now. In your nine hundred starts going crazy. All all all nine lines all administrative. I just couldn't y'all that's lincoln county sheriff jerry lee. He lives down the street. He had no idea what was going on a who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bomber guy who came with glenn jones came into your your house up our house cheerfully was standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grab the keys to who is patrol rig and drove toward the chaos and i literally felt that in my chest i felt the concussion in my chest then i could see the russian cloud coming up over the earth in the world. I could hear the power <music>. This was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany kalev recognize the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so i grabbed the troll rig and by the time i got to my patrol car. The second explosion happened in the more he told us about it. The crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling vehicles in. We actually had to weave through cars that get into the to where the houses and we waved as stop. Stop stop. You're over body parts. I said what you run around with body parts and that's what they said look over there. Look over there settle eggs from the belt down lanes the road the first bomb blew up the house of tiffany and her husband josh cluff. They were nurses in town and lived there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened in the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car park next to the house and the man inside the bomber was glenn jones. A former nurse who used to work with josh jones was the only person hurt in the bombing but when sheriff lee pulled up to the scene he had no way of knowing that it was absolute mayhem like so there's body parts everywhere lee is also the town's coroner and when he pulled up to the scene of the bombing he thought his top priority was identifying. Whoever got hurt you can't really identify someone by just their legs so he started looking for the rest of the body eighty and we did not actually find the over torso which is what we needed for identification. I don't care about the. I mean do care but that's not why i need i need. I need legs. I mean i need fingerprints. I need dental records any that type of stuff to be able to identify somebody. It took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of glenn jones when they did. He wasn't laid out on his back back and easy to identify. He was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Ours it is but even more bizarre is zet when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to get fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said d._n._r. Which do not resuscitate and the phone number for the victim of the house is phone number very bizarre stupid question. That's my producer. Ryan has when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system along with <hes> <music>. Ask about glenn jones and they'll say they knew him. Nice sky blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic and tells me they wouldn't want to speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town and then offer an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of workplace grievance between glenn jones and josh cluff josh at one time was glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends glenn even helped josh build his house in pennock but several months before the bombing glenn leftist job at the hospital around the same time he also lost his nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe glenn blamed. Josh share flea tells me within hours of the bombing. It became an f._b._i. Investigation we also had the bomb squad and everything from las vegas. They brought up cadaver sniffing dogs. I mean they brought auto the robot. That was the whole thing i mean. There's a big show the next day all the f._b._i. Told me when asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the f._b._i. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear nobody in town could really answer my questions and outside of panetta. Not many people people know about it. The national news didn't cover it. This was a bombing on american soil and sure no one was hurt except the bomber himself but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story. It's only after i left panetta that i found a possible answer answer that pointed to something beyond petty disagreement between coworkers so after visiting aca. I started calling around to try to get answers. I found out that glen jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army national guard hard but he never saw combat. I also learned that he had been living in kingman arizona in an r._v. Park right before the bombing happened after the bombing coming. The kingman police department rated glen jones's r._v. They found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals with jones's name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for bomb. One detective said quote the entries indicated that glenn jones had been approached by subject identified as josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device. The intended target that officer rhode was identified as fourth of july b._l._m. Mm field office. That's the bureau of land management the same federal government agency that got into the initial dispute with the bundys but here's where things get murky erkki because the fourth of july came in went that year nothing happened and by july thirteenth johnson decided instead to target josh cluff. Here's sheriff carefully. I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point and they were very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would have wanted to bomb a beal field office. It turned out there was it goes back to the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge oregon when one of the group's leaders lavoix finicky vinnicombe was shot and killed. We'll try to avoid that police barricade in two thousand sixteen when the bomb went off in nevada at the club home finicky was already dead ed and the patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering americans everywhere you look in the patriot movement. You'll see vinnicombe cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People write songs about him the about accountable own. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report in kingman. Police wrote that there is an entry in jones's notebook indicating that lavoix finn comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beale office and that quote josh is the cousin of lavoie vinnicombe. I was able to confirm the josh. Cliff is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved loved so i asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way before the the bombing but we did see an anti-government side to cluff. He didn't want to give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the gist was that at the hospital ospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for themselves and cleft wasn't having it yet really angry started yelling being a little bit of an eye opening about how josh felt about government overreach. It's unclear whether cluff and jones were working together to bomb the beal building at first and something went wrong or jones working alone and decided to bomb tom clubhouse for some other reason so what happened between the two of them. Cluff is never given any straight answers about jones or lavoix or bomb at office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up would few belongings. They could salvage the move to idaho again. Police have not said that the family family has done anything wrong only confirmed that they did in fact got in touch with us on facebook and ask for an interview finally after few messages ages. He wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past months later. I found an email forum when i reached out again and i tried one more time to get cleft to say something i send him the evidence i had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin voi- finnigan so he responded quote those were terrible times for my family which you're trying to move past at the i did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement. Men have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. Glenn jones was planning to bomb a beal building an appeared to have begun as a response to the death of lavoix finicky him joneses plot was a continuation of the occupation of the malheur national wildlife refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at bundy ranch but then for some reason jones baum clubs house instead of the beal building in the years since the bundy's high-profile standoffs more acts of of extremist violence have been popping up in the news they aren't necessarily inspired by the patriot movement but some of them share some of the scene anti-government white supremacist beliefs certainly the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight. A florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals just like barack obama hillary clinton and george soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cabal was accused of sending all those devices to critics of president. Donald trump or georgia man killed a cop killer. Tear guthrie claim to be considered himself sovereign citizen nation to himself. He didn't recognize police. It's already and considering consider and i wondered if the pinnacle bombing was perhaps an early sign of this increasingly radical violence a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless the less into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent. I couldn't ask jones why he blew up the clubhouse or if the the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at plenty ranch and who knew voi- finnigan who also tried to blow up a government building ending that same summer and when we come back leah tracks down that man who said what happened at the bundy ranch served as a rallying cry i to me it was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short boston. Tea party parent civil war like that but it was a wakeup call. This is revealed from the center for investigative reporting and p. R. x. <music> the center for investigative reporting in p. r. x. This is reveal. I'm outlet it back. In february at a truck stop outside salt lake city utah lisa tilly and ryan has of the podcast bundy have come to guy in bill keyboard. Keebler blur has been involved with the patriot movement since the bundy's first standoff with the federal government in bunkerville nevada. He says he ran security there afterwards he he started his own militia fifty seven year old william keebler is known by the f._b._i. As a commander of a citizen militia group called the patriots defense force in june of two thousand sixteen that would he hit the button to designate what he thought was a bomb to destroy a building owned by the bureau of land management but it turns out the bomb was a fake komo undercover f._b._i. Agents had given him the device. He pled guilty to the attempted bombing and served time in jail. Now he's out on probation. Leeann ryan pick up the story at that restaurant and salt lake smokes and coffee real quick. They'll keep learn looks like a shriveling old ranch chand. He's got leathery skin. Smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen and i had a massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery. We're at a denny's tucked into the corner of the truckstop for most most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company. We ease into the conversation. Ryan and i are just trying to get a feel for who we're talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. I'm in the army bravo. Infantry went to a lotta specialized training fort bend when germany i'll l. ended there and i think one of the friday saturday morning i woke up on russian communist. Russian border says he also knows his way around computers. Do i used to do costa taster trish. They can't break and they still have nothing. I mean good anyway even says he has a black belt in kung fu fhu studied numerous black belt in four different styles. He says he created his own system of kung fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly rambo your own and i should be clear. I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but i also wasn't in utah taught to figure out whether he got third place in the kung fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the f._b._i. But i that meant convincing him that we weren't f._b._i. Agents raid to talk to people like you. I'm gonna be honestly it would surprise me. Both david pulled out. I just went shot in what i've seen because in keebler world everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me his story yeah. I've been on borrowed time for years. I came here because they wanted to hear keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent but just a few minutes into the interview. What i'm really wondering is how did the f._b._i. Decide to focus on this guy. Is this old. The man in poor health really the most dangerous person in the patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces his training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing the verifiable part bill keebler story starts in twenty fourteen when he spent about two weeks and bunkerville ville nevada cliven bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the bundy's hadn't paid their grazing being fees and the b. M. had come to collect their cattle. The fact that keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back. Then keebler says he was a member of the oath keepers a militia associated with the patriot movement and by his account at bunny ranch he he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. Leave north actually stop. A lot of people like them play out their stop. People wanna shoot people. I don't want to rehash bundy ranch but the long short of it is no one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the bundy's cows were released in the agents laughed. Keebler was pumped up on the patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events events in this country. This has his history short at boston tea party to several. We're not like that but it was a wakeup. Geico call so in the following months back at home in utah. Keebler started his own militia. He called it patriots defense force or p._d._f. F was a half dozen or so guys got together mostly to talk about self reliance. Basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. He government peppers. We've talked a lot about going off grid about what to do. When things went sideways keebler even showed people how to raise chickens and rabbits for meat meet then a few months later keebler got a phone call from someone he'd met at bunkerville lavar finicky. He wanted me to basically in his place and give him the support that we gave the bundy's back. Then lavoix finicky was just rancher in arizona and keeler said he was building up to his own bunkerville styles standoff with the m. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but i do know that around this time in the late summer of two thousand fifteen finnigan was becoming agitated with the bureau of land management veal a._m. Sarah zero government has said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. He was making that pretty obvious on his youtube page. No none of these bureaucrats crafts do we allow here county none of ever accountable to us emma harvey county. This is the definition of tearing from the way keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and keebler advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics addicts to anyone who'll listen was happy to bring his militia to come help him prepare for the confrontation that the bundy's we got there after the fact if we knew it was coming. We could be prepared because they were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come. Just take all his cal but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for finnish uh-huh cattle records from the beal showed fit income only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven bundy owed more than a million in dollars accrued over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop finicky him from preparing for the worst or keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the bundy's had done at finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto. The landry grazed his cattle and then spring a trap. I don't mean ambush salt and killed and shoot none of that cracks. That's worth thank everybody tresor preser- ad-lib ship the plan was to let the be on the property and then use an excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out at certain place so when they come up and he'll them cattle that can't get up here we keep alert saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what i saw the bundy ranch or an oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and i had to wonder then what are they gonna. Keep them hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before i could get an answer key told me that another member of his militia wanted to blow them all up brad miller's idea. Oh wait till you get right to your brother. It was just up. Keebler says brad miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that. I killing mask to you're killing whoever's truck but brad miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass. He was actually an undercover f._b._i. V. i. agent in fact at varying times. There were three confidential informants and three undercover f._b._i. Agents in keillor's militia and so if you take away keebler the f._b._i. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of p._d._f. Militia all this time finn keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents in court documents their records of text messages one of the other other undercover f._b._i. Agents who went by the name jake davis sent to his handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open pandora's whereas box. I'm worried about our liability in another text. Davis worried about miller's continued taunting keebler quote. I'm all pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas it's like when miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in his head over the course of their investigation the f._b._i. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the west. I patriot movement gatherings. They paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal facilities way out in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal and building that he had scouted in your finnigan's ranch finchem by then had been killed by police after trying to drive around that police blockade oregon over the next couple of months and the f._b._i. Made keebler fake pipe bomb and then on june twenty first twenty sixteen keebler in the rest of his militia traveled to arizona and set the bomb. I'm outside. The building. Keyword pushed the button on a fake detonator the f._b._i. Gave him and then the next morning they arrested him. Topsy picnic brought me a handcuff. This guy comes in dressed bigger shitting grin on his face or allowed to see mr taber trying to brush your sorry ass for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants armaments and two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert and it's not every day you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and i have to say for a while talking to keebler i. I felt like maybe the f._b._i. Missed the mark and manipulated and otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation. Things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when i asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work think about your ideal situation with the federal government the stink government. What would that look like like what would that what would that world learn their own themselves themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be. The government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs affairs. He says that the government can do its thing trading with china and korea but is no damn business running utah georgia or texas then he starts talking about how muslims are taking over schools. You can't do the pledge of allegiance in school. Were now we got muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like muslims i._s. Keebler you give me an example where this was. It's happening but he just said number places yeah. They have taken over host cities. They want to start prayer. They won't stop all the american stuff. The boy scouts and everything make an islam. They're out in the streets. Writing with hundreds of imbalance shutdown rose copter standing over mix. Nobody are you serious badly. Thanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup trucks will in their pro. Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best an attacking muslims in the street at worst and it's all informed his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this. This is the kind of talk that brought the f. b. i. to him. I don't know tops now dressed up. They got what looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god. It was preaching christianity to up there. He's been arrested on the internet right now need to homework homework. You think the federal the federal government is in volved in that or you just think it should be no shock at this point to tell you that keebler is also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him. He hates barack. Obama thinks he's part of what conspiracy theorists call the deep deep state shadowy government cabal agreement today put him in the present is that he would make way for more muslims to be of the united states. That's actually come out recently won the news reporters. He was made president so more muslims the u._s. He arranged to be able to like soros his financing a lot of <hes> a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia. You're going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born to keep it alive long enough the organs to develop didn't kilkare okay and harsh it for parts at this point in our interview. Keebler is looking at ryan. Emmy like we're crazy. Like how do we not know any of this this. I can't believe i don't know none of this. We're looking at keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe stuff talking talking to keebler. I feel like i understand how far down conspiratorial rabbit hole you have to be in order to detonate a bomb that helps me understand glenn jones to oh but at the same time keillor's bigotry as clouded his entire perspective on the world keillor's whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups. This is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author jesse walker. Tell put a guy like keebler and context walker wrote. A book called the united states of paranoia. I wanted to understand the role. The conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in a cold war era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the john birch society <hes> sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties from you know fears where off the <hes> the enemy is based in moscow fears where the enemy is based in new york and <hes> manipulating moscow nineties after the cold war ended ended events like ruby ridge waco happened conspiracy shifted again and so it's much easier just sorta see washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the internet and while i'm not someone who argues that the internet made people more paranoid made people boomer conspiracy theorists i do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who it previously been much more <hes> separate from one another bill keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for a target for their anger. He was in the army fighting communism. When the cold cold war ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and muslims and women and abortion doctors bill clinton and george soros hillary clinton and brock obama the deep state. He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask keebler. Where's this going in his mind. The shit hits the fan incident incident during the obama administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely around me to central command post and we'll go from there we operations at that point. That would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's i think if trump declares martial law would be more controlled manner <hes> he's not come after patriots demolition. Do not white people know there. You go pushing the racist bullshit. The people got angry when i asked him. If this entire world she'd conspiracies government balls is really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about sharia law evasions at the border how muslims are a plague in a christian nation like america. He tells me i'm off base to ask at this. All really comes down to bigotry. Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas and he's not willing to back down from them. That much is clear when ryan awesome different question happens if the democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges the bra. What do you think happens with the patriots over. I'll bet off just from what i'm hearing seeing on the internet. All bets are off with you. Bet your off take their word keebler guy who tried to blow up a government building in who lives is on a steady stream of hate from the internet says he's had enough if anything were to ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are wanting retaliation revenge. They won't pay back for a lot of things this abortion crap what what is happening to our children what has happened to our streets whereas happened in our schools. People want retribution rich bution listening to that story. You might think the government spending a lot of resources versus to stop people like bill keebler but in reality. He's the exception not the rule. Don't get me wrong the f._b._i. Carries out plenty of sting operations nations. They're just usually focus on terrorist acting in the name of islam. Even though there's way more acts of right wing terrorism we looked at this with type investigations sagacious a few years back and found that half of the incidents carried out in the name of islam are stopped with stinks half. Meanwhile stings were used to stop just twelve percent of white supremacists anti-government and other right wing terrorism in other words law enforcement. Usually only folks is on right wing violence after the bombs explode leah. I want to get back to the last thing that we heard from bill keebler that people want retribution. What does he mean by that. There's really been a transition. I think in the year since the bundy's standoffs <hes> a lot of the anti-government movement suddenly loves loves the government under trump which kind of is is counterintuitive right like the anti-government movement is suddenly pro government because trump is talking about things that they care about deeply things like anti immigration issues anti-muslim issues and trump is this kind of anti-government president so retribution for guys like bill keebler is seeing the extremes of those things coming true finally coming to fruition so a country with no immigrants no more islam no more tolerance of anyone wight christian people. I mean the two things the idea that these these groups are anti-government and the fact that suddenly they are pro government under trump is not surprising to me at all because i think the underpinning of both of these things <unk> are white supremacy. How does that play out in anti-government movements. There's this kind of coded language of of racism and bigotry that that drives the groups and in that that you can hear under a lot of what they say so yeah it's not it's not really surprising that after years of being mostly dormant a lot of these anti-government groups had a big resurgence under the first black president under president obama so you can see evidence of the way white supremacy rides along with all of these anti-government anti-government flash points in the last thirty years so like randy weaver the guy who is at the center of the ruby ridge standoff. He was known to hang out at the area nations compound compound in north idaho. <hes> the oklahoma city bomber timothy mcveigh was inspired by a novel called the turner diaries which sort of envisions this <hes> <hes> future dominated by a race war. So what does he have a what people like bill keebler will be doing between now and the presidential election next year i i think bill keebler specifically focused on getting off probation kind of disappearing into the woods. I guess if he could <hes> said he wanted to move out of utah where he feels like the federal government is watching him. He's left social media and not kind of thing but he's still occasionally talks about conspiracies pro-trump messages ages. He's very excited about some of the racist comments that that president trump has been saying as of late so you kind of see a an individual like him him as really an getting excited about trumpet also getting excited about these anti democrat anti liberal conspiracies that that spread like wildfire on on the internet. Why does the government have such a hard time. Stopping these kind of domestic groups and i'm thinking that you know when we look at this. We're primarily talking about white. Supremacists premesis and the government doesn't seem to have a problem tackling other types of terrorism. Why does the government seemed to have such a hard time stopping shopping these groups with violent tendencies. I think it's about priorities. After nine eleven there is a major shift towards focusing on cracking down on international terrorism awesome and it took the focus off of domestic anti-government groups that saw such a resurgence during the nineteen nineties so. I think that your question is right on and what's changed now to stop them. So what else do you uncover in the rest of the season of bundy ville. I answered all kinds of questions. One of those is that i looked at how the anti-government movement recruits other people to do violence and who stands to benefit from that violence so those questions took me all around the american west a- actually led me to a really secretive religious community that i long heard about up in eastern washington that is thought of as this real patriot friendly place yes and i think could be thought of as something of an origin point for a lot of the ideas that the western anti-government movement is excited about liza tilly. Thank you so much coach thank you. We want to thank the whole team of bundy ville for their help. As we said the full run of season two is just out with more twists and turns highly recommend you check it out. You can also read the series on long reach dot com slash bundy ville bundy villes produced by long reads in oregon public broadcasting our partners and bring you this week. Show many thanks to the o._p._b. Editors ryan has anna griffin and long read editors mike dang and kelly stout in fact checker matt giles our executive producer. Kevin sullivan edited today show with help from reveals. Emily harris and g amini are reduction managers news. One day in the hosa are sound design. Team is the dynamic duo j. breezy. Mr jim briggs and fernando-mania room are c._e._o.'s krista schaumburg mad thompson. Thompson is our editor in chief our theme music is by colorado might support for bills provided by the raven david logan foundation the john d and catherine t. macarthur foundation the jonathan logan family foundation the ford foundation the hazing simon's foundation the democracy fund and the ethics excellence in journalism foundation reveal is a co-production at the center for investigative reporting p._r. Ex i'm outlets and remember there is always more to the story yeah <music>.
Episode 3: The Martyr
"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- bundy Ville wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help show off their small businesses even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates a warning to listeners before we start this episode contains audio Jio from a police shooting. Keep that in mind when choosing one and where to listen I've seen lavoix finchem die and die and die I can log onto youtube right now and watch finicky when it comes in spliced and paused and dissected by people who never knew him seconds later he dropped to the ground as the topsy shows from the corner. He was shot three times. Want those people to have again and again watched his pickup crash. The driver's door fly open Vinnicombe hops out as a yells to the police. You're going to have to shoot me. Then three bullets bang back dead kill back it up play to get his words sound like a nervous mantra started again. They come across like an unfinished sentence. Are they start start to threat promise. I always think I'll hear some new intonation some missed revelation but finicky. I'm always dies the same three POPs. It doesn't jump or Yelp just crumples body alive one second have you sack of bones dropped to the ground for eternity the next puppet without a hand gravity. That's stronger than spirit death on repeat. It's Finnigan is known own for and maybe it's because his public facing life was a blip twenty one months out of fifty four years from the time finicky marrived alone at Bundy ranch twenty fourteen to the time he died the leader of the Malheur Occupation Twenty sixteen only about six hundred fifty days past. He was a martyr for the Patriot movement made at the speed of the Internet from long reads an Oregon public broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. Bobbio then gets on the stand and he admits he was on a puddle outside street in Salem Oregon's capital city site an old v._f._w.. Hall there's no place you can stand not see the American flag or feel the nostalgic brand of Stars and Stripes Patriotism Assembled here and on the breast every person who's paid fifty dollars to be here is around pin it reads justice for Lavoix set on a border of American flag ribbon people have gathered here to remember incomes death as the program begins some hundred people in the aged crowd push themselves up from folding chairs the best they can curly-haired cowboy in tight jeans begins to leave the room and song. How's the room turns its collective body toward another flag one with yellow fringe they sing low and soft with the cowboy? That's why when it's time for the Crescendo Sing right along as the day unfolds it will become evident that this is in way kind of church is an American religion with its own symbols its own prayers moral teachings deadly sins and now it's own martyr. The name Robert Lavoix finicky or just lavoix is a hollowed one. This is obviously the third anniversary of death. The man on the stage with Mike is mark her to be here in Oregon on a cold foggy Salem morning he lives in Washington. State has been traveling around the country with Finnigan's widow Ginette they've been showing. Doing this movie that her made it's called dead man talking her says it's a documentary but it's mostly just youtube videos that lavoix uploaded in the months before he went to Oregon still. I don't hear anyone complaining about paying for something that they could watch at home for free genetics here to secure the legacy of little Vinnicombe. Her says he wants that to to secure the voice legacy. He also wants you to pay him to take his civics course after you watch the Finnick Movies Eh he runs a nonprofit called the center for self governance as he keeps talking. It's painfully clear that he wants me by his message to it's called Bunkerville but really Bundy bill right bill. He wants it to be clear that he's not afraid that I'm here or that. I shouldn't be afraid of him. I'm not sure or maybe it's that people should be on their best behavior because the media is here you oppose white supremacy. Would you please stand. You're against white supremacy. You don't agree with white supremacy. Okay if you are pro responsible government. You're pro government. You're pro responsible government. Would you please clap her keeps looking at me and my producer as he talks can't help but wonder how much of this performance is because I'm here if you believe that the federal the boundary between the federal government would does eventually become clear is that this is the part of the day they really want shared with the rest of the world the part they want me to get on tape. Were they explained how people in the Patriot movement aren't extremists at all. The people gathered here marker says they love America and what's wrong with that Lavoix finchem loved America's so much he died for it and shouldn't we all find that inspiring inspiring. It's a truth. This crowd holds to be self evident and voice. Life was pretty obviously more complicated than the simple story critics of the Patriot movement call Avoi- a lot of things things sovereign citizen extremist terrorists Nazi mark her says that the actual facts of his life story are being ignored purposely ignored because it doesn't fit the narrative that he's an extremist based on that. He's a terrorist that he deserved to be killed. The story of lavoix split in these two really extreme directions. He's either seen as everything that's right with America for everything that's wrong with America. So which is hello everyone here would have me believe that Lavoix was a hero for group that wants to correct the record about him. They're awfully stingy with information when it comes time to show the movie about his life that's when the organizers of the event takes the stage wjr reminds us their security everywhere in this room and absolutely no recording of these videos copyright and so I might have to call security. I really don't WanNa do that. We do have security here as she says this to. The crowd huddle of militia members settle in the back and then a man with a handgun on his hip nestled in a leather holster embossed with the words we the people leans against the wall near the only to reporters in this room me producer Ryan has we didn't record the movie about Lavoix Finchem but I'm GONNA be honest. You're not really missing anything. Dan Talking is lavoix. We story told through the eyes of the Patriot movement so it's primarily concerned with his life after he went to the Bundy ranch standoff in two thousand fourteen the movie doesn't answer questions about how Lavoix came to believe what he did and how that belief leave compelled him to die. It's a movie about lavoix as a symbol for government overreach because that's what he's become to the Patriot movement. His life story proves the government's tyranny as a rancher. They pushed him so hard that he had no choice but to fight back when he did. They killed him. At least that's the story that mark her and Jeanette finicky are selling with their youtube video documentary. Fortunately I have better sources okay all right so my name is Guy Finicky so I'm the voice younger brother. So one of the reasons we wanted to come talk to you is we just haven't seen a ton of stuff about who lavoix was before. The world came to know him. I guess so we thought it'd be great for you to just tell us about nobody would have the dirt like a little road. The Guy Lives in for Dona Arizona this tiny town on the border with Utah Lots of films of called home for Generations Josh cluff the guy whose house was blown up in Pennock Nevada used to live here too in fact I found a newspaper clipping from voice baptism and saw relative that the last name cluff actually Baptize Lavoie the L._D._S. temple here. I have to say Guy Finicky looks and sounds. So much like boy he's bald and has the same sharp jaw and wire rim glasses. It's a little jarring at first but that's where their similarities seemed to end real Avoi- aspire to the ranching lifestyle guy became a licensed this mental health counselor a therapist by by profession and so this is this is the world leading work in but I am amazed how people create their own own experiences own reality guy tells me that he in Lavoix in their other siblings grew up in the northwestern is western corner of Arizona on the Navajo reservation. Their Dad had a government job working for the Arizona Department of Transportation as a kid. Lavoix was like any big brother if you could imagine the Batman and joker rolled into one character he was my nemesis when I was a kid home he he loved to tease me he did you know but as soon as we left the home home he was my hero. The boys grew up riding horses camping in the mountains and shooting each other with B._B.. Guns he won be cowboy from the fires but as young as a little boy he didn't have any cattle so that was my job. I was livestock. <hes> gave me a hug titan earmarked more than once guy paints a picture of his older brother as a driven hard working person who dominated every room he was in he was confident. Someone guy looked up to he says lavoix. It was the kind of person that wants. He said his mind to something. You wouldn't give up no matter what not started from an early age he he loved to play basketball. I Remember Waking Up in the summers. We had a old asphalt bad the my dad added oilcake from the highways and Rim my dad put up. I'd wake up in here that I can still hear that basketball bounced and the guy says even though Lavoix was only five seven. He gave everything having to being a basketball player after graduation. He went on his L. D. S. mission in South Dakota. He came home and married his first wife woman named Kelly they moved to a suburb outside Portland Oregon where they managed an apartment building thing had their first couple of children and the whole time voice plan was to walk onto a local college basketball team. He'd play racquetball every day. The guy says reality soon hit the void didn't have the money to pay tuition even if he got a spot on the team so eventually gave up on basketball after regretted that decision because he was never able to get a college degree you know and he says it was the first of many times in his life that I learned about. We're lavoix wanted to make something work doc but couldn't no matter how much he wanted it. Including his marriage to Kelly they had four kids and then they ended up getting a divorce and so nine months after his divorce lavoix got married again to a woman named Rachel they yeah two more kids got a divorce. After two years guy says this part of boys life was full of turmoil and shame this a human being okay he likes aid he'd been through two two failed marriages those deeply distressing matter of fact you know our our religious background our culture you know members of the Church of Latter Day saints we have a high value on marriage marriage and family and and he got a divorce he was first divorced in my grandmother's media family a big family and that was a big deal they him according to his brother La- voice ultimate dream was to come back to Fredonia raise a family he wanted to start a ranch to from his twenties to his forties. lavoix bounced all around the West trying to make enough money to start that dream I found addresses for him. In Portland Albuquerque Santa Fe Las Vegas near Flagstaff and all over Utah Saint George Cedar City Provo but every time he had to get successful at he gets sick of living in the city you try back home the when he did when you come back home he just could never get a foothold so they'd come back here and be dirt poor and struggle and eventually they moved back to the city somewhere away guy tells has the story was willing to do anything to make his ranching dream happened when every move away from home he he he do well financially just couldn't stay away from home and he couldn't make it work very well. On the ranch nine hundred ninety two after a second divorce things started to turn around for Lavoix happened when he went to a singles dance at his church Ginette Finnigan told the crowd about it that day at the V._F._W.. and was back in the day when line. Line dancing was in. I don't know if you guys remember lying dancing. Okay Ninety two and I liked line dancing. There's a lot of fun and I can remember being out on the floor and this gorgeous cowboy walked into the room and I can remember him walking along the side wall and then in front of us and he sat up on the stage and he just sat there watching all of us dance. I WANNA dance with him. They did end up dancing and genetic to keep him dancing but he said he'd only do it. If she answered a question he's I don't have any rhythm and he's GonNa tell you if you can tell me how. Many kids have all dances next dance with you. She guests six. She was right eight long story short two weeks later we were married so it was a very short engagement. Suddenly Lavoix Ginette had this big family they had dreamed about between the two of them. They attend kids. It's eventually became therapeutic foster parents which meant they fostered kids with high emotional and behavioral needs guy says it suited lavoix because of his strong personality he was able to control kids that other foster parents couldn't fostering also gave the family more consistent cash and that was a really key turning point in the voice life finally found the way that he could cash little things to get back home and start building history. The family moved to Kane eighteen beds Arizona. It's about a half hour from for Dona Records from twenty eleven show the Bureau of land management granted Lavoie grazing permit from October to May his allotment was near Tuck Up Canyon deep in the Arizona Arizona Desert near the Grand Canyon. It's important to note that lavoix was running cows exclusively on public land. He didn't have any land of his own and by the time he started ranching lavoix was fifty years years old. He's only been doing it for three years. When in twenty fourteen finicky I'm went to the Bundy ranch standoff over in Bunkerville Nevada and that's the other really key turning point and boys life well I was I was watching what he was doing and he was he was becoming more and more vocal about the progression of what do you call the ever increasing power of you know the government at all levels but the federal government was really concerning concerning to him the next summer lavoix went all in on Cliven Bundy's conspiracy theories about the federal government scheming against ranchers to take over their land and he started fantasizing about what he would do if the feds came after him to you gotTa Stop? It's gotTa Stop Be Lamb here I am you won't pick on somebody. Come pick on me my cows out here. You tell me gotta get him off. I'm not take him off. You know you WANNA WANNA play those antiques with other people harass them destroy their lives. Well here. I am you come pick on me. Come on pick on me and I'm not going anywhere but here's the thing up until twenty fifteen lavoix was in good standing with the bill he always paid his bills on time but after meeting cliven Bundy void kind of went from Batman to joker he became obsessed with the end of the world and started getting into political activism in two thousand fifteen he wrote a novel. It's called only by blood and suffering and spoiler alert. It's about a cowboy who dies in a shootout with federal agents. After America collapses. He also decided that year that he needed to make a stand against the bill and it's on this point the Guy Finicky says a lot of people get the story wrong. A lot of people say you know avoid okay was being mistreated by the O._M.. And therefore you know he was a rebellion against them because of their mystery and he would tell you know that's not the case <hes> they treated him quite well. The problem he had was he saw a pattern of picking and choosing who they treated well to they didn't treat well if they wanted to ranch or some other purpose they'd bring all all kinds of heavy handed tactics on you and push you off in June. Twenty fifteen lavoix wrote a letter to the bill and I got a copy of it it says quote. I'm writing you this letter to express my appreciation for the time we've associated together in connection with my grazing on the Arizona Strip has been pleasant association and without conflict but he tells them he's gotTa take a stand quote. This is not about cows and grass US access resources. This is about freedom and defending our constitution in its original intent. Even the beal was confused phone records show. They called him to try to understand what the heck this stand. Dan was all about and they kept finding Vinnicombe. Cattle out in the sweltering desert outside of the permitted grazing season lavoix responded that ranchers and other states were standing up against the government and he was going to stand with them by the end of August Twenty fifteen lavoix severed ties with the beale completely and court documents show the by September he was meeting with Bill Keebler about making a stand on his ranch in case the feds came in so that's four months from being in good standing with the bill to planning to take a stand against them at his ranch. You know so with family were quite concerned when he started drawing the line in San with the bill because I'm like the Avoi- I know you don't like bullies but you're picking a fight with the federal government. They don't lose. They don't lose look how many people you know they've got unlimited amounts of money and technology and power and everything he's like well the wrong void made up his mind and by January twenty sixteen he was all the way up in Oregon at the Mao year occupation guy was worried knowing what's going on just getting media reports. I thought things you're kind of crazy and I thought what in the world when my brother doing I want to talk sense until modestly over the years him the void discuss politics and they didn't always see eye to eye but when he went to Malheur all year he saw that La Voie was exactly where he wanted to be and I left saying no to my brother. Stay the course stick to what you what you know you're doing in a way it was like everything guy I understood about. Lavoie was clear for the very first time he'd spent so long trying and failing to become a rancher and then almost as soon as he'd done it we'd gone to Bunkerville and saw new model what it means to be a cowboy. It wasn't just running your cattle. Putting meals on the table was actively fighting to preserve a way of life carrying guns standing up to the government plotting standoffs it meant becoming cliven bundy whose motto auto had been whatever it takes cliven wasn't that Malheur so lavoix could step into that role. Maybe take it a step further. People may say you can't know things like this but I knew when I said Goodbye Oregon he he was gonna Die After. Don't ask me how I know. I was just standing. There also hit me. He was GonNa die there yeah so when I said goodbye team I really thought it would be the last I saw you had family after after day of his kids told them they all need to get love what was says. It didn't know what direction this was. He knew that there were a bunch of militia Alicia members that were planning to come in there and he wasn't he wasn't able he had no control those people coming in and he did not know whether they were going to push a fight and what was going to happen and he told us kids. You know it seems safe here today. It is gonNA stay say she can't. We just told you that that some pretty personal think for a second about the kind of love guys talking about a love that is so strong you can step aside and let someone get what they want most even if it'll kill them leaving behind daughters and sons foster children a wife a mother brother a ranch hard-fought dream after talking to guy I'm left with another competing narrative not lavoix as a Nazi lavoix as a hero but Lavoix is someone trying to control his on story. His life was full of failures basketball two marriages in ranching but there's no living life without failure seems like lavoix simply. Let it to find him. One Way to look at his death is as a way to wash away those failures simplifies life down to the last six hundred days when he stood for something and died as a martyr in recordings that were made by undercover agents agents embedded in bill keebler militia Finnigan told Keebler he quote wants to be like the guy standing in front of the tank at Tiananmen Square and that if he gets taken out and the causes the poor ranchers widow so he was thinking about how his death would be perceived even before he went to Oregon it makes me wonder if voice dream was never really about being a lone horseman in the desert fighting for way of life but instead it was about figuring. Away to die as a hero before we leave I asked about the ending of La Voice book the Hero Cowboy who dies in a shootout with the cops guys a master's degree in counseling after all so so did he see it as a suicide note story. There was pretty an ending of a cowboy getting to shootout with the federal government and gets killed and then here. That's exactly what happened to Lavoix. What do you make of that? You know it really isn't I mean he you know if you read that book. I mean there's no question that that was the person he wanted had to be. He wants to be a person who had the ability to stand up and make a difference. I'M GONNA go back to Salem back to the Church of finicky representatives of the Patriot movement hard at work making Lavoix into whatever they want him to be. You know what I was reading the voice book he said something in the book that to me just stood out he talked about how we're going to control every aspect of our lives from what we eat to what we drive to what we wear. This is true. After the movie finished. This lady took the stage and started the throwing around all these wild conspiracy theories about how the U._N.. Aka The new world order is using environmentalism to control everyone crowd is loving her ask Ginette and mark her about this why partner the voice message which they say is apolitical with conspiracy theories political rhetoric and they say yeah maybe we should think about who hitches their wagon to lavoix as a martyr but Janette victims wrongful death lawsuit lawsuit has a total deep state vibe to it accusing everyone from former Attorney General Loretta Lynch to Oregon's governor as being a part of the plot to kill Avoi- it's pretty clear lavoix wanted to be a martyr now his wife life is spreading that message so maybe the Patriot movement is getting him right the journey. The movie is taken over the last six months is worth noting it hasn't been shown at libraries or mainstream G._O._P.. Gatherings the media. It's been shown militias anti Muslim groups and prominent conspiracy theorists. We'll voice death is being used to make extremists more extreme and this is largely how this whole conflict has gone for the past past thirty years back to Ruby Ridge and Waco. If you think of those events is when the broader public became aware of the modern anti-government movement you can see this game of tit for tat playing out over decades the feds shot Sammy and Vicki rickie weaver at Ruby Ridge and they raided the branch Davidian compound in Waco Texas and then two years later Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building in Oklahoma City killing one hundred sixty eight people after waco the Fed stop shooting I and adopted more of a weight amount policy but then Maller lavoix charged a roadblock was killed so the pattern continues and that raises a much bigger question. Where does this go next how many more people will turn toward violence because they can go online and watch the void diet over and over again? Genetic is taken this movie a lot of places including one part of the West. I know really well eastern eastern Washington last summer. She showed it to a separatist religious community near the Canadian border if the message that she wants to get across about La Voie is that he wasn't an extremist weibring the perfect martyr to a place for anti-government violence killings by white supremacists have been happening for more than thirty years. That's next time on Bundy Ville Um. This episode was written by me. Lisa Tilly Peter Fricke right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Dang an anti Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda and a special thanks to David stuck eat and thank you to the Buckskin tavern in Arizona which was kind enough to sell us real beer when the entire city of Connecticut Utah Would Not Bunny Ville is a co production of long rates and Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please help support it. You can do that with any any type of donation bigger small either long rains or O._P._B.. You can also support Bundy Ville leaving us a rating or view wherever you get your podcasts or just by telling your friends to subscribe. There's a ton we.
Episode 1: The Explosion
"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reasons wordpress to publish all of its journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Sh- BUNDY VILLE wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses or even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plan start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off a new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates before we get started a warning. This episode contains mild wild swearing and scenes of violence that may be upsetting to some listeners. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen so what if I told you that in the summer of twenty sixteen eighteen in a rural western town there was a bombing. You never heard about nine one one. What is Your Majesty short? Ma'am Ma'am take abreast from me okay and I I can barely stand you happened in Perak Nevada a town about three hours north of Las Vegas read on the border with Utah Ah. He said he was going to kill you. He said he's calling for explosives and are you away from the home. It was July Thirteenth Twenty sixteen around eight o'clock in the evening one of those warm summer nights but still feels like the middle of the day Tiffany cluff was insider house with her three daughters when a man came to the door said he was GonNa Blow Oh her house up she should get the kids and leave demand then lit diffuse on the bomb he'd put inside the house walk to his car got inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head then and everything blew up shrapnel went everywhere <music> curving and long arc's over the town just down the street the county sheriff's a black smoke a mushroom cloud billing into the sky but I do need additional information from the okay so she cooks. We have one dispatcher to time. She calls back in jail any help appeal right now in nine crazy all the lines title all all allies all administrative also just couldn't y'all physics to try to that's Panetta's Sheriff Sheriff Jerry Lee he lives down the street and he had no idea what was going on who was involved but tiffany cluff. She knew the bombers. Is there anyone injured or do you see anyone injured. Glenn Jones came into your house per house from long reads and Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy fill the remnant. I'm necessarily it was about eight o'clock in the evening. Just normal summer evening people out walking. You know kids riding riding bikes people mowing their lawns and just normal nothing out of the ordinary share flea was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grabbed the keys to his patrol rig and drove toward the chaos. You know my mind is like try going hundred mile an hour tr- trying to figure out what in the world and with you know at that time twenty eight years old I I mean I seen a lot of been experience a lot. I'm still trying to copy on what in the world is going on here. You know cars blow up like that in a movie okay when you see a movie that's how they don't blow up like that. Panetta gets chair of loud noises from a nearby air force base but cheerfully said he knew right away. This was something different and I literally felt in my chest. I felt a concussion in my chest that I could see the mushroom cloud coming up over the air though in the world and here the I could hear the power here that I thought this was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off Tiffany cluff recognize the bomber bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure it out so I grabbed the patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car. The second explosion happens in the more he told us about about it the crazier the story got an we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling their vehicles in we actually had to leave through cars. Get into the to where the houses and we were wave does as stop stop. Stop your body parts. I said what body parts and that's what they said. Look over there. Look over there and there's a subtle leagues from the belt down laying on the road. The first bomb blew up the house of Tiffany and her husband Josh cluff. They were nurses in town on live there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened and the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car parked next to the House and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones a former nurse. We used to work under Josh at the hospital sheriff. Lee pulled up to a scene that was absolute mayhem. I mean like body parts everywhere. Share Flea is a guy with many jobs in Panetta and when he arrived he wasn't sure which job he was supposed to he doing okay so this is a small small town small community small county and we all wear different hats okay and you're gonNA probably get a chuckle out of this but I am also the fire chief here in Pinnock Okay right volunteer all-volunteer see you are also as sheriff. You're also the coroner of the county coroner also correct. I'm on the Emergency Planning Commission for the county. I try to somewhat hold of family. Relate on my father run the ranch so so between all that time a little bit between midnight and four A._M.. Okay so he's at the scene and he's got body parts. That means of coroner hat cheerfully told me and my producer Ryan has that it's his job to identify who's limbs were scattered everywhere but he can't really I._D.. Anyone with just some legs and we did not actually find the upper torso. which is we needed for vacation? I don't care about the late do care but that's not I need torso ended legs any I mean I need fingerprints dental records ending that type of stuff to be able to identify someone took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of Glen Jones when they did he wasn't laid out out on his back and easy to identify he was a tree in the neighbor's yard. Yeah bazaars it is but even more bizarre when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the corners investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we were able to give fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said D._N._R.. which do not resuscitate my that's my medical? Training is the army's do not resuscitate and phone number for the victims house or the victim. The victim victim of the house is former ribs are there you know I don't even know how to venture. Guess on that. I just that's ask one of the most bizarre things that I've encountered on a death to have somebody tattoo something like that on them. I don't know I don't know he had he had a lot of medical training so I know I know that's why I think d._N._R.. Was He knows what he what does it in the medical d._N._R.. Is Do not resuscitate can ask a stupid question when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. Will I think we looked it up our systems to John. Why did this guy? You're minding my point after the first season of Bundy villa last year I had no intention of making anymore. I wanted to find out why the Bundy family would take on the government twice in why all these really different militia groups flocked to their side for the most part I got answers the Bundy's tapped into an anti-government worldview that exists just under the surface out west in created an image of the true American cowboy for people to rally rally around but after they won their court cases the Bundy's started to disappear they'd gotten what they wanted and they're still running cows on public land without paying their grazing fees and of story right but the anti-government groups who come to their side. They didn't go away the Bundy's brought together the oath keepers sovereign citizens three percenters in the right wing media. All the people who think the government government is out to get them basically the catchall term for these groups is the Patriot movement and that movement didn't go away just because cliven Bundy went back to ranching so before you go any further if you haven't listened to that season go do that now. Season Two is going to build off a lot of the things we talked about last time and actually the first question I had when I came across the story of the bombing in Panetta was whether or not it was connected to the Bundy's the Patriot movement and everything from season one was this extremist violence some form of domestic terrorism or just a dispute between co workers. There wasn't any obvious connection. It was just this weird thing but it's not like bombs Blah everyday in this country and I wanted to know more so producer Ryan has an I flew out there Panetta's this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border with Utah a desert outpost host that was founded in the eighteen sixties by Mormon pioneers see only town in Nevada. That's dry meaning. You can't buy alcohol there and one of just two in the state. We're gambling is prohibited. There's a sign at the town listing. The Ten Commandments is like that'll keep the devil out so Panetta has god country and it's such a Western cliche that I literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle of the street. It's a place where you know your neighbor and you know that really knowing knowing him means understanding. What's your business would isn't ask someone about Glen Jones and they'll say they knew him? Nice guy blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one panic can tells me they wouldn't wanNA speculate about Wia. Bombing occurred in their town but then offered an opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of a workplace grievance between Glenn Jones. It's and Josh cluff Josh at one time was Glenn's boss at the local hospital and they were good friends. Glenn even helped Josh build his house in Panetta but about a year before the bombing Glenn Leftist job at the hospital later he also losses nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe Glenn Blamed Josh at her dad and the he had a grudge with him. Glenn Wadsworth family home is next door to the cliffs. He was out mowing the John when the bombing happened. It was the last person to seek lend Jones alive. The gentlemen got out of that car and I watched him get out of that car walk around back in the House and he walked back in you know he weighed that me and <hes> was mowing the lawn what we're told us that this weird feeling came over and while he was mowing that he should skip the rest of the front yard and move around to the back so we did and they're no question that I wouldn't be here. Mode the east side and then the southside saved my life that night sure in fact nobody but the bomber was hurting the blast. This was a common story. I heard everyone remembers where they were. For that day and how no one got hurt even when shrapnel rain down like hail of a clear blue sky the worst thing that happened was a boy who's riding his bike by the clubhouse got smacked with a piece of something was knocked off his bike. Uh He got a bruise really I mean you probably could look at that kid shoulder and they wouldn't even be a scar that kid's mom works at the local bed and breakfast. She made us pancakes when we were there and she told us she thought the angels of Panetta's acas ancestors were looking for the town that day for some people in Panetta. That's really all the explanation they need. God kept them safe. Ernie official answers anyway. Share Flea tells me that shortly after the bombing bombing it became an F._B._i.. Investigation and all the F._B._I.. Told me when I asked for comment was that it's quote the policy of the F._B._i.. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear earlier. Nobody in town could really answer my questions but people were still thinking about it. A couple people asked me to call them if I found out what really happened between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff it's only after I left Panetta that I may be found an I answer an answer that pointed to something much bigger than a petty disagreement between co workers after visiting `Pinaka I started calling around. Glenn Jones had been living in Kingman Arizona in an R._V. Park right before the bombing happened a called all the tattoo shops in town thinking maybe someone would remember doing a weird phone number Tattoo and while my calls did peak the curiosity of a lot of kingman tattoo artists I know knew anything about it. I also look for Jones's relatives online but turned up. Nothing substantial what I did learn is that Jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the army and National Guard hard but he never saw combat in fact. He never left his home state of Colorado during his service in Kingman Jones was as well liked by the people there as he wasn't Panetta remembered for his deference more than any other quality the manager of the R._V. Park where he lived told me that just days before the bombing Jones came into his office and paid the rent for a neighbor going through chemo. He told the manager not to say who did it. AN PANETTA ACA not only did no one say negative thing to me about Jones most wouldn't even call him by his name. They referred to him as the suspect or the person. The National News didn't cover it either. This was a bombing on American soil and sure no one was hurt but the bomber but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story after the bombing the Kingman Police Department rated Glenn Jones's trailer so I got copies of their police reports they found bomb-making materials inside and a few spiral bound journals Jones's name on the cover inside one there were diagrams for a bomb and one detective said quote the entries indicated that Glenn Jones had been approached by subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device the intended target the officer wrote wrote was identified as Fourth of July B._L._M.. Field Office but here's where things get murky because the fourth of July came and went that year and nothing happened in by July Thirteenth Jones a decided instead to target Josh Cliff. Here's share Fli he. I don't know I don't know and I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. I know there were friends at one point time. They're very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal government some reason they would've wanted to bomb a beal field office and it turned out there was hello everyone come one cow Bush Dan for freedom and I promised that I'd make more videos when things progress between me and the federal government to bail am in particular and they have before the twenty sixteen takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Nobody really knew Lavoix Finchem by the time he went to Oregon the most public facing presence he had where the youtube videos he'd been posting for a few months about his fight with the Bureau of land management. Remember remember he's the guy from Malaya who's killed reaching for a gun in his jacket. During a traffic stop at a roadblock set up by police to arrest the leaders of the occupation wait for now you need to know is that by July twenty sixteen when the bomb went off in Nevada cluff home Finnigan was dead in the Patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of a tyrannical government murdering Americans in your hand everywhere you look in the Patriot Patriot movement you'll see Finnigan's cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles flags bumper stickers. People are at songs about him <music>. He's become the figurehead of movement in their report. Kingman police wrote that there was an entry in Jones's notebook indicating that L- avoid comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the office and that quote Josh is the cousin of Lavoix Finchem. I was able to confirm the Josh. CLUFF is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved so I asked sheriff. Lee was angry angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time way. Before the bombing that lead did see an anti-government Sidique love. You didn't WanNa give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis. Assists but the gist was that at the hospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone couldn't decide to ask for it themselves cleft wasn't having it yet really angry. Started yelling got a little bit of eye-opening putting about how Josh felt about government overreach so just to be clear Glenn Jones blew up the House of Josh cluff who is related to Lavoix Finchem Vinnicombe death according to the police report was possibly Glenn Jones's motive for the bombing of a beal and building but that bombing never happened Jones targeted cluff instead. It's unclear whether cluff in Jones were working together other to bomb the bill and building it first and something went wrong or Jones was working alone and decided to bomb clubhouse for some other reason what was close role and all this was he ever investigated. I don't know because the F._B._i.. Won't even tell me there is an investigation so what happened between the two of them. We know they were involved. Financially police found a contract for twenty two acres of land that Jones bought from cluff for fifty thousand thousand dollars. There is also account that would pay out to cluff in the event of Jones's death but I can't tell if any of that connects to the bombing cluff is never given any straight answers about Jones or lavoix or bombing. I'm an appeal office shortly. After the bombing the clubs packed up what few belongings they could salvage and move to Idaho began. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong they only confirmed that they did in fact service search warrant here at the family's new house and also at the families old house the site of the explosion. We're back in Panetta. There's nothing where the house used to be. Just an empty lot filled with mud. I walked the whole perimeter of it while we were there thinking seeing some answer about what really happened might present itself but all I got where muddy shoes and nervous looks from a guy standing quietly on his porch across the street watching Ryan. I poke around like Weirdos so after I got home <hes> I got in touch with cloth on facebook and ask for an interview finally after a few messages he wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past. He said I typed at a response immediately. There wasn't trying to compromise that happiness but it seemed like his side of the story had really come out. What in his mind was the truth? Why the hell then Glenn Jones Josh's phone number tattooed on his body? I hit send by then cluff had blocked me months later. I found an email for him. I reached out again and I tried one more time to get cleft to say something. I sent him the evidence I had N- asked whether the bombing was about his cousin Voy Finnigan he responded quote. Those were terrible times for my family which we were trying to move past have be I did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement have a nice night and please be respectful of what my family has gone on through so here's what we know however the Panetta bombing came to target Josh in Tiffany cluff instead of a be a lamb building it appeared of begun on is a response to the death of a Lavoix finicky him it was in some ways a continuation of occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at Bundy ranch in the years years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs there have been more and more acts of extremist violence popping up in the news and it seems like each time the radical ideas than inform the Patriot movement come up to turn to the news and the man suspected of sending a wave wave of mailbox across the country is in handcuffs tonight like a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent liberals like Barack Obama Hillary Clinton and George Soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy cobol. He's also active on social media and often often posted anti liberal messages conspiracy theories to twitter or Georgia man killed a cop in considered himself a sovereign citizen nation unto himself reclaim to be a sovereign citizen meaning. He didn't recognize police authority or the shooter in New Zealand who had been fire onto mosques because of what he saw as a so called white genocide New Zealand as a nation stricken tonight a self-declared white supremacist gunned down Muslims at prayer today not to give the Bundy's too much much credit but no bombs went off at now here. No shots were fired at Bunkerville so in this season of Bundy Ville. We're not actually talking to any BUNDY's instead we're talking about the people who picked up where they left off the remnant unit of their movement and then we're following the violence following the ripple outward from the voice death through Pinakothek. Try and figure out what's coming next and where it will be coming from what the pinnacle bombing probably Italy is is a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies and how those ideologies become violent but I couldn't ask Glenn Jones why he blew up the clubs house in the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone who is at Bundy ranch who knew Lavoix Finnigan and who also tried to blow up a government building in the summer of two thousand sixteen and when I called them up. He said he'd be happy to tell me anything. I wanted to know that's next time on Bundy Ville. This episode was written by me. Lisa Tilly Peter Frick right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Stout. Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking walking by Matt Giles Research helped from Kim Freda special thanks to David Study and a shout out to the shamrock pub in Kellyanne Nevada who fed US chips for dinner. Bonneville is a CO production of long reads and Oregon Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation to either long reads or O._P._B.. You can also support Bundy Ville by leaving us a rating review wherever you get your podcasts.
Episode 6: The Preachers
"Bonneville is brought to you by wordpress dot com the powerful website creation tool with everything you need to build any kind of site you want long reads uses wordpress to publish all of journalism including Bundy Ville check it out at long reads dot Com Slash Bundy Ville wordpress.com not only helps people tell stories but can also help showoff their small businesses even run a store and their customer support team is standing by twenty four hours a day to help you with whatever you WanNa create plans start at just three dollars a month. Go to wordpress dot com slash long rates to get started and get fifteen percent off any new plan purchase. That's wordpress dot com slash long rates a quick warning to our listeners. This episode contains mild swearing an instance of hate speech and discussions about racist ideologies. Keep that in mind when choosing when and where to listen maybe nice little miles it's April twenty nineteen and driving along this long twisting road the dips in and out of Wide Greenfield's producer Ryan Hassle with me and we're looking for marble community fellowship the secret of religious community I'd heard so much about across the river. There's like hippy Commun- so people have said that like when they were kids growing up in this very conservative environment there would be like naked hippies like on the side of the river sin over there for nearly thirty years people have speculated about what goes on at marble. It's a place that is confused scared an angered folks here in Stevens County far-flung part of North Eastern Washington state and I've been told I should be afraid to because the people who established this place and Berry Bird they have dark passed through the birds live so this is where we taught to go after hearing rumors about this place about radicals with guns looking for a fight and a group of young men training Christian warfare. I was a legitimately afraid to go oh tomorrow but when I get there it doesn't look scary certainly pretty. The entrance is a tall archway of timber posts and assign was simple lettering like you're about to drive onto a ranch attorney walls or razor wire no armed guards or even a gate. It isn't a compound at all or like a collection of houses. It's the kind of place you wouldn't even notice if you weren't looking for it. Marble country marble country is beautiful like a Bob Ross painting when the sunlight spending behind the hills but I'd heard rumors that the birds are the puppet masters of the Patriot movement pulling the strings of elected elected officials like Matt Shea and how far right politicians from Idaho Nevada and around the state of Washington corner following here even though the locals can't vote for them so I wanted to know who are these people <music> from long reads an Oregon Public Broadcasting this is Bonneville and Lisa Tilly as I tried to learn more about marble I went looking for people who lived there canoe the place I found Dr Paul Glanville picture the doctor in an old western movie the stereotypical kindly old gentleman carries a stethoscope leather bag. He Goes House to house checking on the fevers of children. I was kind of how glenville comes across. I really was <hes> interested in this idea of a Christian community where I could practice medicine in what I considered a a very biblical way in the late one thousand nine hundred eighty s Glanville attended a conference and gave a workshop on how to practice free or low cost medical care during the event he attended a session given by married couple recruiting something called Christian Covenant Communities Nice People He Thought Great Idea in Covenant Communities Small Groups of people live together and merge God and government on a hyper local level residents might agree to pay a percentage image of their income to the group if their schools the kids might learn stories of creation instead of evolution the married couple teaching the seminar Glanville went to where these southern bluegrass musicians in their names were berry an an bird they are very charismatic and they sing really beautifully and there's songs are very very say on reading the bird seem like good hearted people in the community they were starting was going to be in Washington to state. They called it. Marble Country Glenville said it seemed exciting and so in Nineteen ninety-two Glanville and his wife took the leap and move their family out there a lot of ways. It really felt like they made it like it was the promised land close fellowship with some of the other people was so wonderful but like so many other communists in intentional communities before it the good times didn't lasts for Glanville and he says those cracks started to show in ways. You might not expect like softball. It was a church softball league. The marble softball teams would play other churches in the area. They had a couple adult teams and one for children but Glenville says in Berry Bird didn't just see these as fun. Get togethers were incredibly intent on Wendy. According to Glanville the birds thought that if they won the church softball league other people would realize their church was the the best but it wasn't just about victories Glenville says the birds wanted the best fans to and they weren't asking for support they were demanding it. There was one night when Glenville decided to go see his kids softball game instead of cheering on the marble number one team afterward Amberg called an emergency meeting for the people who lived at marble and she said you guys aren't supporting the number one team because you're watching your own kids play softball so from now on you can't do that. Glenville says it was an eye opening moment for him and it wasn't the only one he says Annan Berry Bird would show up late eight to church on Sundays. Everyone else usually showed up early to socialize but when the birds arrived they would chastise the congregation for being late it made no sense Glenville started to realize that maybe this Christian Covenant Community He'd been so excited to be a part of something entirely different to the birds because what they mean by covenant is total absolute obedience to the leadership without question now they might not start that addow from the very beginning like that but they will end up that way marble is an insular community so I get why people who live in Stevens County might be suspicious. The birds don't really talk to the press so leaves a lot of room for speculating about what goes on there the one word that kept coming up again and again from one critics of marble talked to me was called but not everyone who's been to marble sees it as a bad place politicians who are associated with the Patriot movement say it's just a really religious community and that's why they go there which raises the question are the critics of marble just attacking giving them because they're different are the allegations of the place being a cult just an attack on their freedom of Religion Zion Mertens told me yeah that's exactly what's happening. He grew up near North Port Washington. In the nineties went to church marble and I went into northport lot and I would talk to people you know for ends kids my age and stuff and that's what they would always say as they would say oh. You're part of that Colt. It's Lebron at Merton says just isn't true April that just look at it on the surface don't really understand it and just like people tend to do they jump to conclusions but I talked to a lot of people who grew up at marble besides Zion and they all told me that angered when you get to know her comes off Colty. She said she received visions claims she could heal arthur touch and can see demons one time when a girl had a seizure in church. The Bird said it was the Holy Spirit moving her when I dug around I started to find. Evidence that Aaron Bird wasn't even the only person in our family thought they were talking directly to got revelations that I had received up to that point okay I I was receiving them at a rapid cliff. Live one week that's art blessed and oldest brother for decades. He's claimed to be receiving revelations directly from God he draws from a mix of racist Christian identity beliefs and fringe mormonism Nissim in fact art things his sisters just a copycat by his telling he was talking to God way before she was always felt that she had to be in competition with me. Since I've receiving revelations alleges that she's got the receive revelations to I found one more of and bird siblings brother in Florida saying he too is a prophet like it's in the families blood to claim they talked to God so I started a wonder was marble marble just some kind of long con cult led by delusional leaders <hes> and a berry had a very strong personality and and did too and so they were able to or Twaddell if you will you know the gullible that's what I like. They convince them things yeah if that's family law but our bullet hasn't seen his sister and bird in years so in some ways his Zion mertens opinion was more up-to-date his family left in early two thousands but he's since moved back to marble and now as an adult with his own children he lives on the property but he doesn't go to the church. I'd called him because they wanted to ask him about a very specific allegation. I'd heard that Anna Berry Bird actually practiced Christian identity the white supremacist religious ideology that was preached at the Aryan nations. I'd heard that the birds went to church at the Ark I moved to Stevens county to my surprise. Mertens brought it up without me asking also when they came to Washington from what I understand they joined in with another church group. <hes> you've probably heard of called Cedar Creek Nick E._S.. That place is without a doubt a white supremacist help and the birds part of the reason why I'm GonNa be specific. You're part of the reason why they decided to start marble was because of how much they disagreed with that ideology so it's really kind of misrepresentation to try to say that that's what they espouse because marble was founded on their lack of agreement with those ideas specifically like the racial element of that. It's interesting to me that Mertens is so definitive about this topic because when I started looking into the birds history I found they were kind of darlings of the Christian identity movement in the eighties their band legacy would go on tour and play churches and conferences around the U._S.. They were on Pat Robertson's the seven hundred club one of the most well-known Evangelical T._v. t._v. shows they also went to the Colorado. Church of a guy named Peter's entire the United States of America. I want to go back to the United States of America. Peters was an icon in the world of Christian identity. He preached hate toward all Jewish people and his Rocky Mountain Bible camps or infamous for drawing racists from across the country Peters is also guest speaker at the area nations in the Ark and the same ideas that he preached all over the Birds Music. This is called a civil war mentally features and bird talking about who she sees as ruining America now we must follow the voice of our great shepherd who will show us how we can rid ourselves of the the most horrible flake that has ever cursed mankind we must repent of our disobedience return to our God and drive the money changers out of our temple and out of our land. We must drive the money changers out of our temple. She says get rid of the most horrible plague that's ever cursed mankind. If you're not up in your biblical scholarship the money changes in the temple where the Jews driving the money changes for the the temple is a story might here in any church about recognizing greed as a sin but when you take it in the context of one of Christian identities primary beliefs the Jewish people are the spawn of Eve and Satan that story takes on a far different meaning racist movements often use coded language like this in case there is any doubt about the band's lyrics the back cover of the Birds Album Judas advance also proves that their music was more Christian identity than Bluegrass US alongside a picture of the smiling band Berry and and her brother Brad bullet in his wife they spell out their beliefs. I'M NOT GONNA repeat it all but the gist of it is that the true children of Israel settled in quote Scotland Orland Britain and every other Christian anglo-saxon nation in the world today in other words God's chosen people are White. I got this record from Paul Glanville the doctor who moved to marble in the early days he says when when he found it he was shocked at its Anti Semitism so we asked Brad bullet about it and he said Oh my golly where did you get that we've tried to get find all those albums and destroy them because that proves were we came from. I tried to ask Brad Bulletin the birds about this but they didn't respond to any of my interview requests so the birds who founded marble which may or may not be a cult our way to into softball talk directly to God what about demons and once put out an anti Semitic Christian identity concept album. I wanted to ask them about this. Other thing I found to at Peter's one thousand nine hundred eighty eight Rocky Mountain Bible Camp Berry Bird and Brad Bulla helped trade a manifesto a document called the remnant resolves. The remnant resolves spell out a desire to see biblical principles put into practice at every level of government. They said in the home women should be submissive to their husbands. Locally the civil government should punish evil and protect the good and at the federal level they said taxes need to stop because you can't tax with God created this is all laid out in resolutions to fix society for the remnant the chosen people white Christians like them quote is blasphemous to regard antichrist's as God's chosen people and to allow them to rule over or hold public office in a Christian nation but they don't stop at racism against Jews and people of Color. The remnant resolves goes on to say quote aboard aside is murder. Sodomy is a sin against God and nature interracial marriage pollutes the integrity of the family pornography district the purity of the mind of the individual defiles the conscience of the nation at the end when it was all down on paper fifteen men sign their names including Berry Bird and then they post for a picture in front of a flag that said we are Israel so just before the birds created their Christian covenant community at Marble Part of the country that a long been a beacon for racist ideologies Berry Bird and his brother-in-law Brad Bulla had created prescription for Christian identity utopia governed by strict biblical law when the birds formed marble people in Stevens County were justifiably worried Christian identity led to violence before but the birds told locals they weren't associated with the Ark and they told local reporters they barely knew Peter's even though they'd sign their name next to his on the remnant resolves and the local media bought the story at the time saying things like the bird seemed friendly and not like racists assists and that their church just quote loves all the things that make America great and people continue to buy into this Idea Zion mertens tells me that when Chevy Ki-ho from the Ark was caught on his killing spree the birds distance themselves from Christian identity that was a huge touchstone moment for the birds when they started realizing what kinds of things were taught error at the Ark but here's the thing even if the bird scrim their new message at marble the overt racism they'd been practicing just a few years earlier they were still advocating for a lot of the same ideas in the remnant resolves. Berry bird used his pulpit marble to remind people who is in charge. These recordings things are from sermons back in the nineteen nineties. I could do a lot of things in this church. I have the authority I could misuse it I could I could manipulate you intimidate you which you know. I'm sure we've done some of that. I mean not meaning to but part. Lord of the deal he called for his congregation to hate the federal government. When we see somebody sewing around government in its place we have a holy hatred righteous anger toward that and we go after it with a vengeance? We say you will not so that government into this place there's places reserved for the Government of God he even glorified martyrdom as a way to achieve the churches goals. Can you say I don't have any problem being martyred. If I know it's what God's call me if I know that my blood is going to water the three of liberty and bill for future generations. I gladly would give my life today so when the defenders of marble say that the birds are just misunderstood. I'm not so sure. Zion Mertens was a member of the church when Barry Bird delivered those sermons me lives there now if he's not seeing her hearing the racism could be he's trying not to see it or hear it. At the Twenty fifteen God and country celebration marble that Fourth of July Patriot movement gathering burying and bird invited a guy named John Weaver to be a featured speaker weaver preaches from the pulpit in front of a confederate flag and rails against interracial marriage advocates for slavery avery I told Mertens didn't make sense to me to invite weaver birds really had rejected racism like you said I really actually don't have an answer on that one. I've never encountered anything like that there and so I ended up finding out that that was his background for me. It was kind of like a little bit of a shock. It's like Martin's doesn't see the radical tapper. It's the birds ideology the ones that grew out of the arc he only sees the flowers of patriotism and Christian values but there are two very clear problems that I see with ignoring the history of the birds. The first is that their ideas have a direct line into the Patriot movement through representative match Shea with keepers founder Stewart Roads and Ginette finchem. The first risen shake called up for his podcast. After president trump's election was berry bird and you know you have to go kind of far in America to find somebody more slandered by the mainstream media than me and that's actually my guest today pastor berry bird marble fellowship who's been really in the fight for for decades now and she said he saw trump's election as a return to Christian values in America wanted to ask very bird. Where do we go? I'm from here and how do we get. How do we get to the word that we use a refounding? What is it gonNA take to get us there well? We're GONNA have to begin to restore providential unethical and providential worldview according to the remnant resolves in the biblical basis for war the way to bring about that providential worldview is clear no abortion no same sex marriage no dissent America is a place governed by zealots the chosen remnant laws of vengeful Christian God so the birds host the got in country celebration and after the male here occupation everyone met at marble to take a victory lap then Chonburi bird were together on trump's election night at big moments. The Patriot movement looks to the birds for leadership and that brings us to the other problem with ignoring the birds history of racism. The anti-government movement has a proven proven record of drawing and people who can be manipulated into doing something violent people with G. bomb fingers by injecting an ideology like Christian identity when soaked in hatred and conspiratorial thinking gives them a target for that violence but not all violence is bloody and over the years. The birds have found ways to hurt lots of people hilarious government building. It really isn't up their case so really is not by the time I met Jesse Johnson at a house in the tiny town of northport Washington. We've been talking on the phone for months through the winter and into the spring talk about his childhood at Marble. He told me it was time of his life filled with fear feeling excluded from the outside world. When producer Ryan hasn't I went up to visit him? He offered to show US around the area. North parts that kind of Western in town I love far-flung dot on the map filled with stories of people trying to make their own way so this is the old whorehouse what's it called cooks. Tavern Johnson left marble. When he was a teenager he was excommunicated? I'm later came out his gay. Hey you went to art. School lived in Los Angeles for years but recently came back to town to reconnect with his family at his house. Johnson tells us about how his family got to marble in the first place back in the nineteen nineties anti spam he was born in California. His parents went to an Evangelical Church there S._e._A._l.. Has These leadership conferences and my parents were pardons peacock searching in California and they were hosting the leadership conference and my parents Ernst had been asked to host the birds at our house and like a week of talking to them and then they got our house. They're ready to move. So what did you think when you met the birds I guess Anna's always really intense and so like I <hes> she has like these piercing blue eyes and I remember like kind of being off put by that and just by her like presence because like she didn't smile very much more like really intense like when she talked you was like talk about what you're doing to have a better relationship with award and I was like eight so like Johnson says it didn't take him to realize there was something wrong about marble after his family moves there he tells me about all these terms that govern life their kids who did something wrong had to work long unpaid hours physical Labor fixing up the homes of the leadership talking bad about the birds in any way was called slander. If a woman was seen as being manipulative and bird would publicly berate her claim the spirit jessa bell was insider Johnson says sometimes kids had to go in front of the entire congregation confessed their darkest secrets. I think they called it an inquest where you would everyone individually originally had to meet with someone or in a group and confess like everything they had done so you wouldn't like if you had your thoughts like looked at Horn masturbated like these considered sins that you had to like confess time for Johnson told me some people at marble were sent a gay conversion therapy or they were pressured into trying to change their sexual orientation and he wasn't the only person told me stories of abuse like this. I talked to one woman who grew up there on the condition of anonymity because she's afraid talking to me can affect her family. Members were still involved at marble. She told me a teenage boys sexually abused her there when she was a little kid. The church older parents not to go to the police. Let them handle it. Girls were told to wear long skirts. It's to cover their skin that it was their fault. If mental tempted kids were raised to believe everything was better than marble way. They didn't need the outside and people who laughed were considered enemies. When someone left the you basically were encouraged to hate them like you weren't allowed contact with them? They were basically <hes> Dad to guide to the community they wanted to hurt us and like to have contact with them would be hurting marble also on the enemy's list the federal government. It's one area where the Patriot movement has a lot of overlap with marble allies of they talked about like crazy conspiracy theorists like the government was allowing Chinese military training like somewhere in Washington state and like kind of crazy stuff so like they're also building this fear of the government off of propaganda so I mean <hes> so that combined with arming yourself against the government takeover that's kind of my concern there Johnson was kicked out of marble because he refused to attend the prep school program run by the birds and their followers so suddenly he was on that enemies list to the last meeting I have with the Birds Barry was yelling at me about how is going to how like I chose like a one way path to hell and this is before I even come out. This was just over me deciding not to go to the prep. School Staunton moved in with his grandmother in California. Attorney says he felt a drift because even though marble was a place he'd been trying to escape it also been all he'd ever known like the few times I did. Try to call on that so to my mom like it was very like cold and short like I remember <hes> like one day. I was like I called just like crying and begging talks like one of my brothers and sisters and <hes> she's like yard like change your lifestyle. <hes> and come back to God and we can talk about it but I gotta go to Church and then she doesn't have asked Johnson would he thought about marble now that he's out for the punishments anti-government Paranoia pushed by the birds were just a way to control people so I mean do you do threes now. I'd say they're they're more of a Colt is because not everyone has equal share what I believe as they I felt experimented experiments in on as a child like not in like the mad scientists sense but like from a psychological perspective and I think that every kid who grew up there we'll tell you the same thing. Dr Paul Glanville said that marbles leadership or do anything to keep power of the people who live there even if it meant destroying lives in their own community Mike is would turn me in to the leadership for negative talk and I hey we called in to a meeting with the leaders that would go on for two or three hours where they would stand over me shaking their this and yelling at me Cleo. Oh says when he realized it was a colt he felt trapped here. He was a doctor smart guy. He'd been duped and I you know and you say we'll. Why did you put up with that? Well again. A lot of people to are trying to leave a cult have magical thinking that if they just could say the right thing or do the right thing the leaders years well suddenly see the truth and repent and will everything will be all right when he finally some in the courage to leave. He says he was shocked at his family's reaction. My wife filed for divorce when I left <hes> and my kids basically all signed the divorce papers lambda went to marble seeking a big happy Christian family only when he left he didn't have a family they chose the birds. I have to admit when Jesse Johnson says he'll take us on the property at Marble Ryan and I are nervous. They can't really say no to guided tour secretive community. No other journalists had been to especially perfect Sunday so a lot of people are going tonight anyway. I'm afraid to have my note pat out and Ryan has his microphone tucked away so it's not easily seen but Jesse Johnson has always defied the birds and he's still goes to see his parents at marble as he brings us inside we Dr Pepper road called Liberty Way. There are signs for a bunk house hitching post. There are pastures all around on a long building we pass. There's a sign painted that reads Holy Ghost town. Johnson doesn't seem afraid of the people who live here even after all the things they've done to him. He talks about some of the people who still oh follow the birds like their old friends certain people here wonderful and like it. It sucks that the main reputation that is taken for marble is because of the birds extremism at one one point we come across a group of people out for a stroll they stop and stare at the car for a second feels like we've been caught but Johnson throws the car in park POPs out. I took strong road Johnson's struts toward them with a big smile on his face. He says you figures if he's nicer than anyone here. No one can hate him. No matter what the birds say and it seems to be working working he eventually takes us to the top of a hill overlooking marble. There's a big white cross looms over the community. Johnson says groups pilgrimage up the hill every Easter Sunday we stand there for a few minutes overlooking the patchwork it's rick of Greenfield's and houses under sky that feels bluer and wider than anywhere else. I'd like you trims and send out a little bit you can have river. I mean do actually that's the Columbia right. Yeah okay yeah so it's kind of like it's like chickens and you can see the allure. Some of the homes at marble are large beautiful estates. They look like the types heights places rich people my call the cabin others are falling apart shacks melting back into the Earth. The birds don't live on the marble property itself. They have the nicest house of them all on a road not far from here even no. I didn't see them in person when I was there. I felt their presence the entire time I've been reporting this story. It was in the many people I talked to who didn't want to go on record because they're too afraid of with birds might do to them or their families who is in the people who defended ended them and brushed aside the racism as relevant driving around. It didn't seem like we needed both profess to be here but Johnson says if anyone asked who we are. We shouldn't say we're journalists. Were just old friends from art school. We spent a couple of hours marble. We talked to people they told us things about the place but after seeing it for ourselves we decided we can't say much more without putting people at risk the birds control this whole place and that's dangerous for the people who depend on it besides the stories of Jesse Johnson and Paul Glanville Seymour about marble than our quick tour ever could in the nineties berry and bird planted the seeds of an authoritarian state in northeastern Washington when the benefits from believers who are afraid of the outside world not shays nurtured those seats into his fifty first state idea yeah and now with trump office the birds might be seeing an opportunity to reap what they've shown. Johnson says it's not so much that they love trump but that he is destroying everything so quickly like maybe this will progress is to like their revolution waiting for so maybe it's like for the World Abebe like he's rushing in the second coming Greenie apocalypse like I'm in because they definitely like have thought the world always ending a few times. We're excited about it. Marble isn't the area nations. The birds aren't buying Nazi flights when they preach and they're not killing people in the name of their ideology so a lot of people dismiss them as harmless because they don't know where they don't WanNa know the truth about the birds in the birds when asked by reporters about their past have lied about their close ties to Christian identity known as really challenged them and they won't answer any more questions. <music> Marvez wrapped a flag around across to make radical ideas more palatable and they're trying to get those ideas into the mainstream by joining local government. They've run candidates for county commission seats the assessors office but it's a slow and messy process where they have to answer questions from outside their community a faster way to get what they want is by seeing than America crumbles and then rebuilding it in their image but they need people are going to do the crumbling true believers so they create martyrs and sacrificial lambs Lick Lavoix finicky saying they were the victims of evil the new world order the deep state and then they ask people. What are you going to do about it? It's a way to reach new converts people who are afraid. I'm looking in every dark corner for confirmation that their fear is justified. People Bullet Glenn Jones. It turns out in episode one when I opened this window into extremist violence back in pennock Nevada. I didn't think I was coming back to this case but new evidence suggests that the bomb I'm Glen Jones set off in July. Twenty sixteen may have actually been a new extreme for extremist violence in America. That's next time on the season. Finale of Bundy Ville in this episode was written by me. Lee Civilian Peter Frick right and Ryan has music by Robbie carver. This series is produced by Peter and Robbie from thirty minutes West. We had editorial oversight from Kelley Kelly Stout Mike Dang An- Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Frieda and especial thanks to David Study. Thank you also to Paul Glanville and Jesse Johnson for their willingness to share their stories and to everyone from marble talked me about their experiences there Bundy Ville is a co production of long reads in Oregon public broadcasting their members make this show possible so if you like this type of journalism please consider a donation.
Dispatches: Bundyville, The Remnant
"This episode of the outside podcast brought to you by athletes unfiltered season two. It's the new podcast from strata the world's best APP for runners and cyclists and this season. We've got an incredible series of stories from the strategy community when I say we I mean for the last few months the podcast team here at outside has been working with the folks at strata on these stories. They're all about running cycling and ultra marathoning so you've been helping out and there's some stuff in here that I'm actually Kinda jealous that they got to. I like Myrna Valero but what it's like to be an overweight ultra marathoner. I already know that I'm fat so you don't tell me that I am an ultra marathoner so please don't make assumptions about me. Please don't ask me to exercise because I exercise Lorenzen. Dan You struggles to find balance as a professional bike racer. I don't visit to anybody. I know you know close to me because it's like it's like you have been into a war zone or Brian and Tom Williams a father. Other son team took on the Comrades Ultra Marathon and South Africa. Even after Brian had been kicked out of the country. I think we're GONNA do it if we do it and if we succeed it or just be it'll be the fulfillment of a dream. It'll put your risk many of the ghosts of post. It's a series that's not so much about how to change your life to better pusher limits but about how pushing limits can change your life. The first episode of athletes unfiltered season two is out now with more episodes coming coming every other week this summer find it and subscribe and your favorite podcast APP whichever when you're listening on right now from outside magazine N._p._R.. These these are dispatches stories from writers in the field last year round this time we shared an episode of the series Bundy Ville with you about the Bundy family they had been at the center of two standoffs federal government in Nevada at the ranch in an Oregon at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge these two events kind of become flashpoints the debate about public lands in the West and there was a around dialogue about questions like should ranchers be running cattle out there should desert land be preserved as habitat for endangered species who owns the middle of nowhere. If you listen to that whole series and we can actually tell by the numbers I love you did by the time you get the end. The questions had changed a little bit. It wasn't about public lands so much as anti-government violence. This conflict started out being about the Bundy's where they could raise cattle but by the end it was bigger in about the militias religious fundamentalists and conspiracy theorists that had responded when the Bundy's put out a call for the last year reporter. Leah's Attila has been following this new threat reporting not on the Bundy's but on the people who are taking the radical accolades ideas of the Bundy's even further. You may have noticed a lot of right wing violence in the news this last year shootings synagogues and mosques bombs being mailed a prominent liberals when it comes to extremist violence twenty eighteen was actually actually one of the most violent years in America since nineteen seventy so leah wanted to know about this violence where it was coming from WHO's carrying it out and why and now a year later we've got another season of Bundy Ville the share with you the rooms all over the American West. This is another project team here at outside has been helping with so we're actually gonNA play the first two episodes for you back to back but unlike the first season that ended up really far from where it started season two who by the end is right back where it began in the small rural town of panic in Nevada a quick warning to people who may be listening with kids or triggered by this topic these episodes have some mild swearing graphic violence and discussions of racist just ideologies so just keep that in mind usually so what if I told you that in the summer of Twenty sixteen in a rural western town there was a bombing you never heard about nine one on what emergency short hell Ma'am Ma'am abreast for me okay and I I can barely Danja happened. Linden Pinnock Nevada a town about three hours north of Las Vegas Right on the border with Utah. He's he said he was going to kill you you. He said he's calling for explosives and you are you away from the home. It was July Thirteenth Twenty sixteen around eight o'clock in the evening one of those warm warm summer nights but still feels like the middle of the day Tiffany cluff was insider house with her three daughters. When a man came to the door said he was gonna blow her house up? She should get the kids and leave the man then lit the fuse on the bomb. He'd put inside the house walk to his car. Got Inside lit another bomb and shot himself in the head. Then everything blew up. Ah Shrapnel went everywhere curving in Long Arc's over the town just down the street the county sheriff some black smoke coke mushroom cloud billing into the sky but I do need additional information from the okay so she we have one dispatcher time she goes to jail any help. Appeal trees title all lines all administrative also just couldn't y'all got physics. If you try to so that's Panetta's Sheriff Carrie Leigh he lives down the street and he had no idea what was going on. who was was involved but tiffany Kloof? She knew the bombers. Is there anyone injured or do you see anyone injured. Who Came Glenn Jones came into Your House for House from long reads and Oregon Public Broadcasting? This is Bundy fill the remnant. I'm the utility it was about eight o'clock in the evening. Just normal summer evening people out walking kids riding bikes people mowing lawns just normal. Nothing out of the ordinary cheerfully was just standing in his yard with his dog when it happened so he yanked his dog inside grabbed the keys to his patrol rig and drove toward the chaos. You know my mind is like troy hundred mile an hour trying to figure out what in the world and with at that time twenty eight years Moore's law I mean I'd seen a lot of been experience a lot. I'm still trying to comprehend what in the world is going on here. You know carvedilol like that in a movie okay when you see a movie that's how they don't like that. Panetta gets share of loud noises from a nearby air. Force Base is Sheriff said he knew right away. This was something different and I literally felt in my chest. I felt the concussion in my chest. Then I could see the mushroom cloud coming up over the air though in the world in the I could hear the power here that I thought this was the last place that anyone expected a bomb to go off. Tiffany cluff recognized the bomber but no one else had any idea what was going on it was sheriff lease job to respond and figure figuring out so I grabbed the key patrol rig and by the time I got to my patrol car. The second explosion happens in the more he told us about it the crazier the story got we pulled up and of course people from the community were already pulling in their vehicles and we actually had to weave through cars get into the to where the houses and we were waved as as stop stop. Stop your body parts. I said what run around her body parts and that's what they said. Look over there look over. There's a subtle leagues the belt down laying on the road. The first bomb blew up the house of Tiffany and her husband Josh cluff. They were nurses in town and live there with their kids. Josh was in home when it happened and the rest of the family escaped just in time. The second bomb was in a car parked next to the House and the man inside the bomber was Glenn Jones a former nurse who used to work under Josh at the Hospital Sheriff Lee pulled up to a scene that was absolute mayhem mayhem and like other body parts everywhere share flea is a guy with many jobs in Panetta and when he arrived he wasn't sure which job he was supposed to be doing okay so this is a small small town small community small county and we all wear different hats okay and you're gonNA probably get a chuckle out of this but I am also the fire chief here in Pinnock okay volunteer volunteer. They see you are also as sheriff. You're also the corner of the county corner also correct. I'm on the Emergency Planning Commission for the county. I try to somewhat hold of family on. I helped my father run the ranch so so between auto spare time a little bit between midnight four A._M.. Okay so he's at the scene and he's got body parts. That means Corner Hat Sheriff Lee told me and my producer Ryan has that it's his job to identify fi who's limbs were scattered everywhere but he can't really I._D.. Anyone with just some legs and we did not actually find the upper torso. which is what we need it for vacation? I don't care about the do care but that's not I need. I need the torso legs. Any I mean I need fingerprints. I need dental records and that type of stuff to be able to identify someone took investigators about fourteen hours to find the top half of Glen Jones when they did he wasn't laid out on his back and easy to identify a tree in the neighbor's yard. Yeah bazaars it is but even more bizarre was that when they found the body and how these strange tattoos on it during the cores investigation he was identified by a couple of ways he we're able to give fingerprints were able to get some some dental and <hes> crazy enough tattooed on his chest said D._N._R.. which do not resuscitate my that's my my medical? Training is the army's resuscitate and phone number for the victims house or the victim the victim of the house his phone number bizarre you know I don't even know how to venture on that. I just that's one of the most bizarre things that I've encountered on a death to. Have somebody ask you something like that on them. I don't know I don't know he had he had a lot of medical training so I know I know that's why I think d._N._R.. Was He knows what the arm it but he knows medical d._N._R.. Is Not resuscitate can ask a stupid question when you guys saw the phone number tattooed. Did you call the number. It's a really good question. I think we looked at up our system and saw that job. Why isn't this guy after the first season of Bundy villa last year? I had no intention of making thing anymore. I wanted to find out why the Bundy family would take on the government twice in why all these really different militia groups flocked to their side for the most part I got answers the Bundy's tapped into an anti-government worldview that exists just under the surface out west and created an image of the true American cowboy for people to rally around but after they won their court cases the Bundy's started to disappear disappear they'd gotten what they wanted and they're still running cows on public land without paying your grazing fees and of story right but the anti-government group's who'd come to their side. They didn't go away the Bundy's brought together the oath keepers sovereign citizens three percenters in the right wing media all the people who think the government is out to get them basically the catchall term for these groups is the Patriot movement and that movement didn't go away just because cliven Bundy went back to ranching so before you go any further if you haven't listened to that season go do that now. Season Two is going to build off a lot of the things we talked about last time time. Actually the first question I had when I came across the story of the bombing in Panetta was whether or not it was connected to the Bundy's in the Patriot movement and everything from season one was this extremist violence some form of of domestic terrorism or just a dispute between co workers. There wasn't any obvious connection. It was just this weird thing but it's not like bombs blood everyday in this country and I wanted to know more so producer user Ryan Harrison. I flew out there. pennock is this gravelly town on the Nevada side of the border with Utah a desert outpost that was founded in eighteen sixties by Mormon pioneers see only town in Nevada. That's dry hi meaning. You can't buy alcohol there. One of just two in the state were gambling is prohibited. There's a sign at the town listing the ten commandments like that'll keep the devil out so Panetta's God country and it's such a western Cliche cliche that I literally watched tumbleweed roll down the middle of the street. It's a place where you know your neighbor and you know that really knowing him means understanding. What's Your Business? What isn't ask someone about Glen Jones and they'll say they knew him? Nice guy blew up a house. One time it was strange and sad more than one anakin tells me they wouldn't wanNA speculate about why a bombing occurred in their town but then offered an opinion opinion anyway for the most part people think the bomb could have been allowed messy expression of a workplace grievance between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff Josh at one time was Glenn's boss at the local hospital and they we're good friends Glenn even help Josh build his house in Panetta but about a year before the bombing Glenn left his job at the hospital later he also losses nursing license for mishandling morphine so people think maybe. Maybe Glenn blamed Josh I'd heard and the he headed grudge with him. Glenn Wadsworth family home is next door to the cliffs. He was out mowing the lawn when the bombing happened was the last person seek Glenn Jones alive the gentleman got out of that car and I watched him get out of that car walk around back in the House and he walked back in you know he weighed at me and was mowing the lawn watts. We're told us that this weird feeling came over and while he was mowing that he should skip the rest of the front yard and move around to the back so we did and there's no question that I wouldn't be here for mobile the east side and the southside saved my life that night sure in fact nobody but the bomber was hurting the blast. This was a common story. I heard everyone remembers where they were that day and how no-one got hurt even when shrapnel rain down like hail of a clear Blue Sky Sky the worst thing that happened was a boy who's riding his bike by the clubhouse got smacked with a piece of something was knocked off his bike. He got a bruise really I mean you probably could look at that kid shoulder and they wouldn't miss car that kid's mom works at the local bed-and-breakfast. She made us pancakes when we were there and she told us she thought the angels of Panetta's ancestors were looking out for the town that day for some people in Panetta. That's really all the explanation they need. God kept them safe. There aren't any official answers anyway. Share Flea tells me that shortly after the bombing it became an F._B._i.. Investigation and all the F._B._I.. Told me when I asked for comment was was that it's quote the policy of the F._B._i.. Not to confirm or deny the existence of an investigation it was clear. Nobody in town can really answer my questions but people were still thinking about it. A couple people asked me to call them if I found out what really happened between Glenn Jones and Josh cluff it's only after I left Panetta that I may be found an answer an answer that pointed to something much bigger than a petty disagreement between co workers. After visiting Panetta. I started calling around. Glenn Jones had been living in Kingman Arizona in an R._V. Park right before the bombing happened. I called all the tattoo shops in town thinking maybe someone would remember doing a weird phone number Tattoo and while my calls did peak the curiosity of a lot of kingman tattoo artists no knew anything about it. I also look for Jones's relatives online but turned up. Nothing substantial social what I did learn is that Jones got some training in field artillery during his eleven years in the Army National Guard but he never saw combat in fact. He never left his home state of Colorado during his service in Kingman Jones's well liked by the people there as he wasn't Panetta remembered for his deference more than any other quality the manager the R._V. Park where he lived told me that just days before the bombing Jones owns came into his office and paid the rent for a neighbor going through chemo. He told the manager not to say who did it. An Panetta not only did no one say negative thing to me about Jones most wouldn't even call him by his name. They referred to him as the suspect or the person. The National News didn't cover it either. This was a bombing on American soil and sure no one was hurt but the bomber but it's hard to imagine if he'd been brown or black or anyone else but a white guy that this would have been a non story after the bombing the Kingman Police Department rated Glenn Jones's trailer so I got copies of their police reports they found bomb-making materials inside a few spiral bound journals Jones name on the cover inside one. There were diagrams for a bomb one detective said quote the entries indicated that Glenn Jones it had been approached by a subject identified as Josh who offered to pay him to construct an explosive device the intended target the officer wrote was identified as Fourth of July beal field office but here's where things things get murky because the fourth of July came and went that year and nothing happened in by July thirteenth. Jones decided instead to target Josh Cliff here sheriff. We I don't know I I don't know an I truly still to this day. Don't truly know what the victim and the suspects true relationship was. There were friends at one point time. They're very good friends. I wondered if there is a chance Jones or cluff might have had some beef with the federal federal government some reason they would've wanted to bomb a beal field office and it turned out there was hello everyone this boyfriend come one cow boyish Dan for freedom and I promised that I'd make more videos radio when things progress between me and the federal government to be all I'm in particular and they have before the twenty sixteen takeover of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon. Nobody really knew Lavoix finicky by the time he went to Oregon in the most public facing presence he had where the youtube videos he'd been posting for a few months about his fight with the Bureau of land-management Remember. He's the guy from Malheur who was killed reaching for a gun in his jacket during a traffic stop at a roadblocks set up by police to arrest the leaders of the occupation for now. We know who is that by July twenty sixteen when the bomb went off in Nevada the cluff home Finnigan was dead in the Patriot movement was talking about him as a martyr proof of tyrannical government murdering Americans your hand everywhere you look in the Patriot movement you'll see Finnigan's cattle brand on hats shirts tattoos belt buckles lls flags bumper stickers people write songs about him. He's become the figurehead of a movement in their report. Kingman police wrote that there was an entry in Jones's notebook indicating that La- VOIP and it comes death was a possible motive for the planned attack on the beal office and that quote Josh is the cousin of Lavoie finicky him. I was able to confirm the Josh. CLUFF is related to finish them but that's not proof. He was involved so I asked sheriff. Lee was coffee angry at the government over his cousin's death. He said he couldn't say but he told us a story about a time time way. Before the bombing that lead did see an anti-government side to Kloof. He didn't WanNa give us too many details since it involves someone having a medical crisis but the just was that at the hospital sheriff s cleft help give medical attention to someone and couldn't decide to ask for it themselves cleft wasn't having it got really angry started yelling but got a little bit of eye-opening about how Josh felt about out government overreach so just to be clear Glenn Jones blew up the House of Josh cluff who was related to Lavoix Finchem Finnigan's death according to the police report was possibly Glenn Jones's motive for the bombing of appeal and building but that bombing never happened Jones targeted cluff instead it's unclear whether cluff and Jones were working together to bomb the bill and building it first and something went wrong or Jones was working alone and decided the damn close house for some other reason what was close role and all this was he ever investigated. I don't know because the F._B._i.. Won't even tell me if there is an investigation so what happened between the two of them we know they were involved. Financially police found a contract for twenty two acres of land that Jones bought from cluff for fifty thousand dollars. There was also an account that would pay out to cluff in the event of Jones's death but but I can't tell if any of that connects to the bombing cluff is never given any straight answers about Jones or Lavoix or bomb anabela office shortly after the bombing the clubs packed up what few belongings they could salvage aged moved to Idaho again. Police have not said that the family has done anything wrong they only confirmed that they did in fact service search warrant here at the family's new house and also at the families old house the site of the explosion Lahj. We're back in Panetta. There's nothing where the house used to be. Just an empty lot filled with mud. I walked the whole perimeter of it while we were there. Thinking some answer about what really happened might present itself but all I got were muddy shoes and nervous looks from a guy standing quietly on his porch across the street watching Ryan. I poke around like Weirdos so after I got home I got in touch with cluff on facebook and ask for an interview finally after a few messages is he wrote back quote. We're just happy and not trying to dig up the past he said I typed at a response immediately that it wasn't trying to compromise that happiness but that it seemed like his side of the story had really come out what in his mind was the truth why the held in Glen Jones Have Josh's phone number tattooed on his body. I hit send but by then cluff had blocked me months later I found an email forum and I reached out again and I tried one more time to get cleft to say something. I sent him the evidence I had nast whether the bombing was about his cousin Voi- Finnigan he responded quote. Those were terrible times for my family which we're trying to move past at the I did their due diligence and cleared me of any involvement have a nice night. Please be respectful of what my family has gone through so here's what we know. However the peninsula bombing came to target Josh in Tiffany cluff instead of a be a lamb building it appeared of begun as a response to the death of a Lavoix finicky him it was in some ways a continuation in the occupation of the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge which was itself a ripple effect of the standoff at Bundy ranch in the years since the Bundy's high profile standoffs there have been more and more acts of extremist violence popping up in the the news and it seems like each time the radical ideas that inform the Patriot movement come up to turn to the news and the man suspected of sending a wave of mail bombs across the country is in handcuffs tonight like a Florida man who mailed bombs to prominent imminent liberals like Barack Obama Hillary Clinton and George Soros because he thinks they're a part of a shadowy ball? He's also active on social media and often posted anti liberal messages and conspiracy theories to twitter or Georgia man killed a cop considered himself a sovereign citizen and nation unto himself reclaim to be a sovereign citizen meaning. He didn't recognize police authority or the shooter in New Zealand who've been fire onto mosques because of what he saw as a so called white genocide New Zealand is a nation stricken tonight a self-declared white supremacist gunned down Muslims at prayer today not to give the Bundy's too much credit but no bombs went off at now here. No shots were fired at Bunkerville so when this season of Bundy Ville we're not actually talking to any BUNDY's instead we're talking about the people who picked up where they left off the remnant of their movement and then we're following the violence following the ripple outward from avoids boy's death through `Pinaka. Try and figure out what's coming next where it'll be coming from what the pinnacle bombing probably is is a tiny window too small to see the whole picture but a window nonetheless into extremist ideologies how those ideologies become violent but I couldn't ask Glenn Jones why he blew up the clubs house or if the bombing was supposed to send some sort of message but there was someone else someone someone who is at Bundy ranch who knew Lavoix Finchem and who also tried to blow up a government building in the summer of two thousand sixteen and when I called him up. He said he'd be happy to tell me anything. I wanted to know it's February twenty nine thousand nine hundred and I met a truck. Stop outside Salt Lake City Utah. It's just after four o'clock. The sons already going down range of snow covered mountains looms nearby producer Ryan Harrison. I have come here to meet with a guy named bill keebler and we're nervous. Keebler has been involved with the Patriot movement since Bunkerville where he he says he ran security afterward. He started his own militia fifty seven year old. William Keebler is known by the F._B._i.. As commander of a citizen militia group called the Patriots Defense Force in fact Keebler has been portrayed as one of the most dangerous people in the Patriot treatment according to the court documents F._B._i.. Undercover agents infiltrated Keebler Group and took part in field training exercises they say keebler talked to members of his militia about quote going on the offensive in June of two thousand any sixteen just a month before Glenn Jones Flip the club family home in Panetta Keebler hit the button to detonate what he thought was a bomb set to destroy a building owned by the Bureau of Land Management. Thought is the keyword there it turns out. His bomb was a fake given to him by undercover F._B._i.. Agents who had embedded in his group even before his arrest Bill Keebler thought there was some grand conspiracy of play and that for some reason the government was out to him personally the thing is it turned out he was one hundred percent right about that from long reads in Oregon Public Broadcasting. This is Bundy Ville. I'm Leah Silly. When Glenn Jones shot himself in the head waiting for his bombs to blow up and Panetta he took with him answers to all sorts of questions about why he did what he did but by talking to Keebler I hope we might learn something about how right wing bombers operate and what they're thinking why does someone in the Patriot movement like diffuse or press the button and why now Keebler Jones had both set off their bombs in the summer of two thousand sixteen four to five months after the mail your? Occupation in Oregon had resolved so what changed after Mao here today anything smokes in Coffee Real Quick Bill Keebler looks like shriveling old ranch hand and he's got leathery skin smoker's cough says he beat cancer once and has had four heart procedures two thousand thirteen massive heart attack and had to go in for mercy open heart surgery where at a denny's he's tucked into the corner of the truck stop for most of his working years. Keebler was a horse wrangler and hunting guide with his own company Creator gator outfitters off in Georgia crews we ease into the conversation Ryan than I are just trying to get a feel for who were talking to what we can and can't ask but it turns out gablers a storyteller and he's happy to talk all about his past. He's got stories from his time. In the army. Eleven Bravo Infantry <hes> went to a lot of specialized training for bed and when Germany I'll ended there. I think one of Friday Saturday morning I woke up on Russian communist Russian border says it also knows his way around computers due to do codes nutrition they can't break and they still have nothing good anyway even says he has a black belt. In Kung Fu studied numerous rumors are ranked black Belton for different styles <hes> eighty six eighty six before board of Masters and I presented the new system he says he he created his own system of Kung-fu. You can tell keebler likes to think of himself as a kind of elderly Rambo own and I should be clear I wasn't able to verify most of his stories but I also wasn't in Utah to figure you're out whether he got third place in the Kung Fu world championships. I wanted to know what happened with the F._B._i.. But I that meant convincing him that we weren't f._B._I.. Agents raided talk to people like I'm going to be honest way would surprise present both David pulled out badge. I just went shutting what I've seen because in keebler swirled everyone's a potential threat and you can't be too careful. He's been burned once already asked him why is even telling me story with me. I've been borrow town for years. I came here because I wanted to hear Keebler side of the bombing and understand how and why things became violent I couldn't get answers from Glenn Jones who police said had wanted to target a government building so I had hoped keebler would help me understand why a person will try to detonate a bomb but just a few minutes into the interview. What I'm really wondering is how did the F._B._I.? Decide to focus on this guy is this <music> old man in poor health really the most dangerous person Patriot movement. If you skip over the special forces training the computer hacking and martial arts inventing thing the verifiable part of Bill Keebler story starts in two thousand fourteen when he spent about two weeks in Bunkerville Nevada on Cliven Bundy's ranch the family in some militias were facing off with the bureau of land management because the Bundy's hadn't paid their grazing fees and the beal had come to collect their cattle the fact that Keebler was there was later used by government prosecutors in court as evidence of his extremism back then Keebler says he was a member of the the oath keepers a militia associated with the Patriot movement and by his account at Bundy ranch he was a bodyguard for the family. He claims he's the guy who kept things from descending into violence. We've not actually stop a lot of people alive. I like them. Play up there. <hes> how stop some people didn't WanNA shoot people when I've got mad about him for the game I fix he wanted to start the war. Do I want to WHO said I won't fire shot just to get started because if one shot had ever went off up there it's done you don't care if it was a firecracker backfire necessary base. Oh my God I hope Accardo have backfired you know or so might those down firecracker on the ground things with that volatile. I mean it was ready. I don't want to Rehash Bundy ranch but the long short of it is no cars backfired. no-one fired any shots and the government backed down and after the Bundy's cows were released released the agents left Keebler was pumped up in the Patriots big win to me. It was one of the biggest events in this country. This has in his history short at Boston Tea Party <hes>. I'm not apparent to show but we're not like that but it was a wakeup call soon the following months back at home in Utah Keebler started his own militia. He called it Patriots Defense Force or P._D._F.. It was a group of a half a dozen or so guys the got together mostly talk about self reliance basically they did survival training practice target shooting. They were anti-government. rappers talked a lot about going off grid about what to do when shit hit the Fan Keebler even showed people how to raise chickens rabbits for meat then a few months later keebler says he got a phone call from someone he'd met at Bunkerville McCoy finicky. He wanted me to basically come in his place and give him the support that we gave abundance. You'll recall that lavoix Finnigan was a leader of the Malheur wildlife refuge occupation was eventually killed by police at a roadblock in Oregon and that he was the cousin of Josh Wash cloth whose house was blown up Panetta but back then Finnigan was just a rancher in Arizona and Keebler said he was building up to his own bunkerville style standoff with the B._L._M.. I can't fully verify what was said in this phone call but but I do know that around this time in the late summer of Twenty fifteen finish Adam was becoming agitated with the Bureau of Land Management Bill Governor said has exclusive legislative power over these lands. What's he was making that pretty obvious on youtube page? No none of these bureaucrats do we allow here Monte County none of ever accountable to US Mohave County. This is the definition of tiered from the way Keebler tells the story finicky was not only upset he was looking for a fight and Keebler who advertises his supposed expertise in military tactics to anyone who listen was happy to bring his militia. Come help him prepare for the confrontation at the Bundy's. We got there after the fat. If we knew it was coming we could be prepared. They were actually <hes>. Apparently they won't come at just take all his cattle but it's pretty unlikely that anyone was coming for Phoenix. Cattle records from the beal showed Vinnicombe only owed about fourteen hundred dollars in grazing fees by comparison cliven Bundy owed more than a million dollars crude over twenty years for the beal plan to cattle roundup end up that led to the standoff near his ranch but that didn't stop Finchem from preparing for the worst or Keebler from helping him do it. They came up with a plan that was different than what the Bundy's had done at Finnigan's ranch. They decided they would let the federal agents onto the land where he grazes cattle and then spring a trap don't mean ambush assault and kill and shoot none of that cracks where everybody at the plan was to let the beal. I'm on the property and then using excavator to destroy the road behind them so they're truck couldn't get out certain place when they come up hill them cattle. They can't get up hill keebler a saying sounded way more extreme of an approach than what I saw a Bundy ranch or an Oregon he was saying they would trap federal agents and I had to wonder then. What are they going to keep them? Hold them hostage. Why trap them in the first place but before I could get an answer Keebler told me that another member of his militia wanted it to blow them all up Brad Miller's idea what he's bom up Keebler says Brad Miller wanted to set off a bomb at the roadblock but he had a few problems with that the first of all you killing mask cattle to you're killing whoever's truck but Brad Miller wasn't just a cattle killing dumb ass? He was actually an undercover F._B._i.. Agent in fact at varying times there were three confidential informants and three undercover F._B._i.. Agents in Keebler militia so if you take away keebler the F._B._i.. Agents and informants there were at most just three members of P._D._F.. Militia Gotcha all this time Finnigan Keebler had been planning a confrontation with federal agents with the help of federal agents by the Spring of Twenty sixteen federal agents had been keyboards militia for more than a year trying to quote take his temperature according to text messages between agents on the surface. It seemed like a standard F. B. I. Undercover Operation We for the bad guys do bad stuff and then take him down but the more I talked to Keebler in the more the government blocked me from accessing his court records the more I started wonder about what role the government was really playing in the P._d._f.. Militia between the two agents and Leonard Informant Dave became the most active when we went down to Arizona to voice they pay for the whole trip but <hes> I'm. They were a good financial support and we needed that according to court documents the F._B._i.. Agent who who went Brad Miller taunted Keebler this was the same guy who keebler says had the idea to blow up federal agents unfinished comes property and he said that the Patriots and P._d._f.. Were just quote facebook fucking Nazis in other other words guys who have a lot to say online but never take action in real life Keebler in response suggested the group do some recon of potential targets in Salt Lake City agent Brad Miller core documents say was one of the most active members of the militia suggested targeting Muslims but keebler said he didn't know how to find any so miller offered to Google a mosque Mitch. I know we're pulling up to a mosque. I and I said Look you've lost your mind. Now looking around I said all of you've lost your F- mine's not mainly to Brag as we were clashing there he said but what would it take. Why couldn't we so I'll tell you why you can't? I said you see that thing behind your your left shoulder looks under this gas towers. You'd be amazed what sending things cameras monitor buildings. That's that's one reason. Can't you know getting a modest place second. Look at the terrain and I'll starting to break it down to tell him I said now he noted for you got look over people walking out coming in and out playing basketball. You see that those are kids. This women children are playing basketball shit. y'All loss again so the group moved on and drove past a bureau of Land Management Office Miller suggested that they mail a bomb to it or use a truck bomb to blow it up. Dude gone see no. That's feeling though you know how many people in do you know what this whole. Scouting mission was going nowhere. They thought Keebler take the lead and blowing up government buildings but he just wasn't biting if it sounds like the F._B._i.. Was Pushing Keebler to take some sort sort of drastic action. It turns out. Even some of their own agents were worried about that in court documents their records of text messages one of the other undercover F._B._i.. Agents who went by the name Jake Davis sent to was handler right after this happened he wrote quote. I hope we didn't open Pandora's box in a way by taking keebler to a mosque he might not have found on his own. I'm worried about our liability. If he happens to go back sometime on his own in another text Davis worried about Miller's continued taunting of keebler quote. I'm all for pushing him but we can't sound more radical. He wrote to me. That's what it sounds like. We're doing later he wrote. I'm not down with giving him all the ideas like when Miller told him that we would have to mail a bomb to the beal office or drive a car bomb up to it. We can't be putting crazy ideas into a crazy guys head but they didn't more than just put ideas in Dennis head over the course of their investigation the F._B._I.. Agents posing as militia members drove keebler around the West to Patriot movement gatherings they paid for trainings. They were the majority of his militia and then finally only in the spring of two thousand sixteen keebler started to buy in he told the militia that they were going to target beal. 'EM FACILITIES WAY OUT in the middle of nowhere specifically a beal building that he had scouted near Finnigan's ranch Vinnicombe by hi then had been killed in a traffic stop in Oregon over the next couple of months the F._B._I.. made him of fake pipe bomb and then on June twenty-first Twenty Sixteen Keebler and some of his militia traveled to Arizona and set the bomb outside the building keyboard. Push the button on a fake detonator the F._B._i.. Gave Him and then the next morning they arrested him. Tops Picnic brought me handcuff misguide comes in addressed a bigger negotiating green on his face loud she mr cable trying to bust your sorry ask for two years they had busted him in all it took was three agents three paid informants in two years of pushing keebler before they convinced him to set off a fake bomb way out in the middle of the desert in almost makes you wonder if the F._B._i.. Hadn't been around would keillor's militia have just kept on raising chickens cooking rabbits. It's being facebook. Nazis entrapment is very hard to prove in court. <hes> the burden is it. I is on the defense rather than on the prosecution to bring bring the case. This is Karen Greenberg. She's the director of the Center on National Security Forum Law the school in New York City. I asked her about the legality of the F._B._I.. Pushing a guy like keebler you when you go to court or when you read the court documents they look very much like you know somebody was placed in the midst of this group was listening and picked up information. Asian that was used useful and usable right and then the other end of the spectrum which is who provided the munitions who provided the plot who provided the ideology who it's it's at hooper who really ran ran this if you look at the active elements of it I just want to note that Greenberg's primary focus is international terrorism and she haughty groups but there's some crossover between the cases. She's watched and the Keebler case so so like is it common in the cases pieces than you've watched like this that that someone will say like here's a bomb or hey. Why don't we Google mosque for you or hey how this or do this or in this case is individual keebler was like I don't know guys like you know Oh and then we went and interviewed him he said I guess I just got it in my mind? That's what I should do at a certain point okay so the F._B._I.'s defense on this and it's worth thinking about because it's it's got legitimacy to it which is look. I could have been all kinds of and if I could get them to do it. Don't you think al Qaeda get them to do it. And it works with a jury it works and because what they say to the jury is would you have said yesterday this F._B._i.. Guy So maybe that's the logic to the keebler case that if the feds could get to Keebler some with a plan and target and connections to a bombmaker could too so he belonged in jail but this interpretation of the law is fairly new and controversial basic a cruel that they're called the attorney. General guidelines required an F._B._i.. Agent to have a reasonable indication that criminal activity may occur in the nineteen ninety s Michael German was an undercover F._B._i.. Agent agent who went inside militia groups in the Pacific northwest he works for the Brennan Center for Justice now but it's previous work was infiltrating White Supremacist Neo Nazi groups. German tells me that before nine eleven in order to to investigate someone the F._B._i.. Needed a reasonable indication that that person was about to commit a crime pretty low standard. I hit most most F._B._I.. Agents wake wake up in the morning pretty suspicious but after nine eleven the Bush administration wrote new guidelines allowing the F._B._i.. To investigate pretty much anyone. Why would you want to investigate somebody? You don't have a reasonable factual basis to believe are doing something wrong. I mean this doesn't make any sense and clearly what it opens. Up Is the opportunity to to target people who who you don't like German says that in order to watch someone all the F._B._i.. Needs is a theory that maybe that person could commit a crime someday in the future initially it was mostly used against Muslims but has broadened out because it's a successful tactic as far as the F._B._i.. Is concerned it is broadened out other groups and my concern with that is your targeting. The lowest hanging fruit right not pretty much describes keebler the low hanging fruit after sitting in talking with him for three hours. I'm not convinced he could put a bomb plot together. He didn't have any targets identified. You didn't know how to build a bomb and and when it's defense attorney found those text messages at the F._B._I.. Waffling about whether or not they were putting crazy ideas into crazy guys head government offered him a plea deal. Even keebler says the F._B._I.. Got To him well they was he'll a bit determined to do something and I guess I kinda. Let it get my head that maybe if we did something to cutler mode kind of like a warning signal. There are two ways to look at Keebler I as a man with the potential to commit violence silence because the F._B._i.. May Have given him the bomb but he still hit the button and to be honest. It's easier to see him that way as an off his rocker militia member but that's probably too easy of an answer because whatever he did he probably L.. We wouldn't have been able to do it without the F._B._I.'s help. So how much blame does he really deserved. Whichever version of Bill Keebler is more accurate guy we're talking to here at Denny's is a paranoid man who thinks to the government may actually be justified in that paranoia at one point in our conversation he went silent and then told us that we were under surveillance? He based on US Shit. Okay we'll be in watched washed F._A.. Or form where do you just want bud you yet yeah for two years the F._B._i.. I tracked Bill Keebler and now he sees them everywhere. They're watching him when he smokes in his backyard. He goes to the grocery store. They're hiding in plain sight serving coffee at Denny's just to get to him. It's not everyday you talked to someone who's tried to bomb a building and I have to say for a while talking to Keebler. I felt like the F._B._I.. Had totally missed the mark and basically manipulated otherwise innocent man so they could get a conviction but about an hour into our conversation things took a hard turn and he didn't seem so innocent anymore. In fact it became very hard to talk to him. It happened when I asked him about how he thinks the federal the government should work your ideal situation with the federal government the state government would that look like like what would that would that running their own themselves the government doing the job they were meant to be the the government's purpose is basically for foreign affairs. He says that the government can do it's thing trading with China in Korea but is no damn business running Utah Georgia or Texas then he starts talking about how Muslims are taking over schools. You can't do a pledge of allegiance in our school with now we got Muslims praying and everything else in the hallways in our schools and in our classrooms and teachers are now making kids dress up like Muslims James. I asked Keebler. Give me an example where this was happening but he just said number places yeah they have taken over host cities. They WANNA stop prayer. They won't stop all the American stuff boy scouts and everything I make an Islam they're out in the streets right mean with hundreds of imbalanced shutdown whole rose in concert standing over mixture. Nobody eruption are you serious badly tanks her for about fifty rednecks before pickup. Draft will end April Keebler is advocating for something that sounds like intimidation at best and slaughtering Muslims in the streets of America at the worst and it's all informed by his conspiratorial world view. Maybe this is the kind of talk brought the F._B._I.. To him don't cops now. They're dressed up. They got well. It looks like police cars and what looks like police uniforms and they're doing what they want. Now there was a god it was preaching Christianity to up there and he's been arrested. It's on the Internet right now need to get homework. You think the federal you think the federal government is involved in that or you just think that it should be no shock at this point to tell you that Keebler is also also an ardent donald trump supporter. He loves him and HE HATES BARACK. Obama thinks he's a part of some deep state plot to turn America into Muslim only nation but his the agreement that they put him in the president isn't too he would make way for more Muslims to be of getting the United States Ness. What's actually come out recent? I wanted to news some reporters. Here has made president of more Muslims. Yes that's the arranged to be able. I love like Soros is finding a lot of a lot of this is about the new world order looked pedophilia going on right now. They can kill a child hours. After it's been born they keep alive long enough. The Oregon's developed in Joachin and hardship for parts at this point in our interview Keebler is looking at Ryan than I like. We're crazy like how do we not know any of this. I don't know none of this. We're looking at Keebler. Like how crazy do you have to be to believe this stuff at this point in our conversation. It was hard to know how to continue talking to Keebler. I feel like I understand how far down a conspiratorial spiritual rabbit hole. You have to be nor to detonate a bomb that helps me understand Glenn Jones to but at the same time Keebler is a big and that bigotry has clouded his entire perspective on the world keebler his this whole life revolves around conspiracy theories but in the world of militias and anti-government groups this is actually nothing new so we got on the phone with author Jesse Walker to help with a guy like Keebler in context Walker wrote a book called the United States of of Paranoia. I wanted to understand the rule that conspiracies have played in militia groups throughout history. You know in the Cold War era <hes> right wing conspiracy theories to you had groups like the John Birch society sort of shifting from in the nineteen sixties sixties from fierce where all the <hes> the enemy is based in Moscow furious where the enemy is based in New York and <hes> manipulating Moscow and then in the nineties after the Cold War ended events like Ruby Ridge in Waco L. happened conspiracy shifted again but in the nineteen nineties you lose the context of the Cold War and so it's much easier to just sort of see Washington as the enemy period <hes> you also have on the rise of the Internet and while I'm not so who who argues that the Internet made people more paranoid made people more conspirists I do think one thing that it definitely did was allow more mixing among <hes> all these different groups of people who had previously been much more <hes> separate from one another. You know Keebler fits this description of the modern conspiracy theorist someone looking for target for their anger he was in the army fighting communism. When the Cold War ended he had to look somewhere else and joined up with militias other so-called Patriot groups to fight the government now he's a foot soldier for trump and his new enemies are immigrants and Muslims and women in an abortion doctors the bill and George Soros Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama the deep state? He lives in an acid bath of conspiracy theories so ask Keebler. Where's all this going in his mind during the Obama Administration if he declared more slow rally me rarely ran me to Lesser Central Command Post Him we'll go from there? We start operations at at that point that would have been should fan so what's the difference now. What's what's think trump declared martial law it would be more controlled manner well? He's not come after Patriots. Relation do not know now she there you go pushing a racist. I asked you know they got an able oh so angry when I asked him. If this entire world shaded conspiracies government cabals it's really just a veil for his racism after he spent an hour telling wildly inaccurate stories about Sharia law and evasions invasions at the border how Muslims are plague in Christian nation like America. He tells me I'm off base to ask if this all really comes down to bigotry Keebler is built his world around these extremist ideas. He's not willing to back down from them that how much is clear when Ryan awesome at different question. What do you think happens if the Democrats impeach trump or some kind of charges abroad? What do you think happens with the Patriot? I'll that's all just what I'm here seeing on the Internet. All bets are off. Was I'll bet you off take their bill. Keebler guy who tried to blow up government building in who lives on a steady stream of hate from the Internet says that he's had enough if anything were ever happen to his guy trump and he thinks it'd be time to take up arms again. People are putting retaliation. They want revenge. They won't payback for a lot of things his abortion crap what had milivoy what has happened our children what has happened to the our streets whereas in our schools people want <hes> retribution. They want what Shit Stop. I still don't know what to make Keebler. I'm not sure you can really tell us anything about Glen Jones but if you look at Keebler on what changed before four and after the Bunkerville and Malheur standoffs the biggest differences that afterward the F._B._i.. Turner's world upside down pushed him toward violence. It's not illegal to believe racist things. Our country is built on the the idea that you have the right to complain about the government so it's not really clear to me at the F._B._I.'s own conspiring to get keebler help. Take a dangerous guy off the streets for a few years or made a blowhard into a radical who could snap if the political winds change but what I do think keebler case makes clear is that he's somebody who can be influenced into taking action keillor's paranoia and belief in nearly every conspiracy he comes across seems to open this crack in his worldview that seemingly anyone can exploit. He's an attack dog waiting for a command. It happened with the F._B._i.. When he pushed the button and happened was Lavoix finicky him when he plotted trap beal agents in a memo included with his court records? The government wrote that after keebler pushed the button on their bomb he told the agents this isn't about Lavoix. It's what he stood for. So keebler Glenn Jones make at least two people in two months timeframe invoking Finnigan's his name is they carried out a violent action which got me wondering about how many more people influenced by what finicky supposedly stood for and if those people really knew what he stood for or if they had just as keebler might say read it on the the Internet Phantom seems to have this outsized influence on the Patriot movement because he died so why does some deaths fade away and others become catalysts for violence. That's next time on Bundy Ville that was Lisa Tilly host of Bundy Ville. This episode was written and produced by Leah Ryan has and me Peter for Greg Music and sound design by Robbie Carver Bonneville has editorial oversight from Kelley Stout Mike Dang and Anna Griffin fact checking by Matt Giles Research help from Kim Freda especial. Thanks David Stocky.