12 Episode results for "Li ka-shing"
Cheung Tze-keung Pt. 1
"This episode features discussions of kidnapping and violence that some people may find offensive listener discretion is advised especially for children under thirteen may twenty third nineteen ninety six thirty one year old. Victor Li had just finished a long day at work. He had to hurry if you wanted to make it to dinner at his father's home in the affluent deep Water Bay area of Hong Kong as the son of a business tycoon. Victor knew he was destined for great things he had received a top education at Stanford University and was poised to take over his father's company. Some day now. He only hoped he could live up to his dad's legacy nicknamed Superman by Hong Kong locals. Victor's father sixty eight year old. Li ka-shing had built his empire from the ground up. Victor on the other hand had only ever known wealth his whole life had been filled with privilege and he wondered if Hong Kong would embrace him the way they had his father. These thoughts weighed on victor's mind as he made his way outside to the waiting Limo. If he had been paying more attention he might have noticed the forms lurking in the shadows as victor reached for the car door. Five men emerged from the darkness and grabbed him. They shoved a blindfold over his eyes. But not before. He caught a glimpse of what they were carrying machine. Guns who ever these men were. They weren't taking him to see his father. This is hostage a podcast original. Every week we tell the stories behind the most captivating hostage situations and the people inside them will also cover. The psychological tactics used in kidnapping situations. And what the human brain does win held captive. I'm Irma Blanco. I'm Carter Roy. You can find episodes of hostage and all other park asked originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen. Podcasts just dream hostage for free on spotify just opened the APP and type hostage in the search bar at par cast. Were grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. So let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at podcast network. This is our first episode on one of Hong Kong's most ruthless crime bosses Chunky Kong. His obsession with wealth drove him to commit to kidnappings for ransom this week. We'll discuss Chung secons early life. And how his introduction to underground gambling fueled his obsession with wealth and status this led to increasingly dangerous crimes culminating with the kidnapping of his first victim. Victor Lee the son of one of Hong Kong's richest businessmen next week. We'll examine how one successful ransom left. Chum confident enough to try another will also explore the controversial agreement between Hong Kong and Chinese courts that ultimately decided his fate John. T-com was an unlikely kidnapper but his love of money and his criminal background led him to attempt his most notorious crimes. The kidnapping of Victor Li in one thousand nine hundred ninety six and Walter. Kwok in one thousand nine hundred ninety seven to truly understand criminal like Chunky Kong. One would have to be acquainted with Hong Kong's history of gang violence and how it came to be. The island was first seated from the Chinese to the British in eighteen. Forty two at the end of the First Opium War in eighteen ninety eight. China agreed to lease the island to Britain for a period of one hundred years. Meaning that come. Nineteen ninety-seven Hong Kong would return to Chinese rule. Under British rule Hong Kong became an international trading port and experienced economic growth at a much faster pace than its neighbor. China differences in language and political ideology further divided. The two regions Hong Kong had a democratic government with elected officials while China was under a communist regime when the two countries did finally merge in the nineties the transition wouldn't be easy thus in the nineteen eighties both countries preemptively agreed on a principle called one country two systems which would allow Hong Kong to retain separate legal and judicial systems. Once they join China Hong Kong citizens would also retain some liberties not guaranteed to the Chinese such as freedom of speech and assembly essence. Hong Kong would fall under Chinese jurisdiction but it would retain a separate identity when it came to internal politics. These rights are insured to Hong Kong until twenty forty seven however one country two systems played perfectly into the hands of certain criminals. Those smart enough to commit crimes on one side of the border and hide out on the other. Neither Hong Kong nor China is a stranger to organized crime or gang activity. The region's most prolific organization called the triads originated in Seventeenth Century. China and has continued to gain power ever since triads are expected to accept each other as blood brothers never failing to offer a fellow member food shelter or financial assistance. There's a strict hierarchy to the gang and an elaborate initiation process complete with sacred poetry and ceremonial speeches. Prospective members also agree to the thirty six oaths elaborate code of conduct that spells out how they must honor their brotherhood protect their reputations and never betrayed the organization the punishment for defying. Any of the thirty six oaths is grizzly. The offending gang member will be killed by five thunderbolts or by a myriad of swords in effect they could be executed by a firing squad or stabbed by an onslaught of weapons. When Hong Kong came. Under British rule in eighteen forty two the triad were a prime target for police so the gang broke into smaller factions. Instead of weakening them the strategy only increased the triads power by the nineteen sixties. There were at least sixty different triad gangs in Hong Kong and police estimated that one in six citizens belong to one. The triads made their money primarily through the drug trade but they also often resorted to illegal gambling. Extortion fraud or prostitution for a time. The triads were too prevalent and powerful for the police to touch between nineteen fifty and nineteen seventy triads. Were all but running. Hong Kong's Kowloon Walled City. Originally in old Chinese military Fort Calhoun was the only section of Hong Kong that China had refused to hand over to the British in Eighteen. Ninety Eight Kowloon Walled City technically remained a part of China but even China lacked a clear initiative for the area as a result it was something of a no-man's-land crammed with over thirty thousand people. The area became a hotbed for crime violence theft and drugs by the mid nineteen hundreds. It was so out of control. The police adopted an unofficial hands-off policy for the area. They were no longer going to risk their lives trying to control the neighborhood. Outsiders were too afraid to enter. Kowloon and bus drivers and Waste Management. Employees refused to set foot inside its parameters either. The triads heyday was limited. In one thousand nine hundred eighty seven. The British and Chinese governments announced a joint plan to Demolish Kowloon walled city. The Hong Kong Police Force also introduced the Organized Crime and Triad Bureau specifically meant to combat gang crimes as they inevitably spilled out of the ruin neighborhood by the Early Nineteen Ninety S. The wall city had been completely torn down. Most triad activity was driven underground from this point on gang members generally stock to smaller tier targets believing the ultra wealthy. Hong Kong business tycoons to be too high profile to connected to police and therefore too risky to pursue that. None of this mattered to one criminal. Chung see Kong in nineteen fifty five Chunky Kong was born in Gangdong province China to a poor farming family in a rural mountain town. Life was so difficult that Chung sister died of starvation effort to save his wife and four year. Old Son Chung's father. Smuggled the family over the border into Hong Kong in Hong Kong. Chung's father opened an herbal drink shop and yell. Matei an area known to be frequented by criminals and gangsters but it still wasn't enough to support his family to supplement his income. Chung's father started as Zepa or illegal lottery. Stand every week. Chung watched his father collect the entry fees from the participants always kept a cut for himself before handing over the remaining pile of cash to the lucky winner. The fact that this was illegal didn't register with Cheung. All he saw for dollar signs. Emily Mendez a mental health and substance. Abuse expert explains that children who grow up around gambling. Don't always see this risky behavior as a big deal. They're more prone to develop gambling addictions as teens and young adults given their early exposure. This seemed to be the case for Chung who would become a high stakes gambler. Later in life and as a criminal he became adept at taking major risks. It was all a part of the life. He had known since childhood at School in Hong Kong. Chong a bright enthusiastic learner but he was shunned by the other students for being an immigrant from mainland China. As the school outcast Chung learn to toughen up in order to survive. He eventually fell in with some local gang members before long teenage Chung had pledged allegiance to the famous fourteen k triad as Chong became acquainted with the Organization. He no longer understood the point in continuing his education after all his father earned enough money through illegal means. Why couldn't he owned by age? Sixteen Chung had dropped out of school left his family's home and risen through the triad ranks to become a leader and he had a rap sheet to show for it. Chung had already been arrested nearly fifteen times for assault theft N. robbery police regarded him as a hardened criminal entreated him as such not giving him any leniency even though he was still a minor over the next three years the teenager was in and out of jail prison was. Chung's first losing hand. Inmates were treated more like animals than human beings and the guards thought. Nothing of denying them basic necessities. Chung was determined that once he left prison he would never return even if it meant giving up his burgeoning criminal career. Each twenty newly released from prison. John Attempted to live in accordance with the law as father helped him secure a tailoring apprenticeship but his resolution short lived while working for the Taylor. John met someone who changed his outlook on crime. Chung's coworker a man named Wong thing. She explained that. The only surefire way to become rich was through illegal means but in order to be successful. One had to be as careful and meticulous as a Taylor. Every stitch must be perfectly placed or else the whole garment unraveled armed with this. New Outlook Chong embarked on a loan shark venture which proved moderately successful with payments. Finally Rolling in two things became very clear to Cheung Kong money. Was everything an earning. It legitimately was for suckers around this time in the late seventies Chung began so sitting with gang members in the Kowloon walled city. The region was still controlled by the triad. Gang and police maintain their hands off policy. It was there that Chung learned that gambling wasn't the only way to rake in a quick payout. Armed robbery paid pretty well to street. Fighting and petty theft escalated to more dangerous ventures for Chung and he soon joined forces with another career criminal twenty-three-year-old daredevil Yip Kifune where Chung was a meticulous planner. Yip had less inhibitions. He was willing to charge into a situation. Headfirst guns blazing. If they worked together they would make a dynamic duo having joined forces. The two criminals plan their biggest heist yet. It would be bold daring and risky but if it worked they'd get the pay out of their lives coming up. Chung see Kong takes his first massive gamble. Par cast listeners. If you enjoy stories about crime mystery and the unexplained you'll absolutely love the new park cast original series supernatural with Ashley Flowers. It's hosted by Crime Junkies Ashley Flowers and you can hear new episodes every Wednesday. Almost mysteries can be solved by looking at the facts but sometimes the facts don't lead to a logical explanation and the truth lies somewhere in the unknown in supernatural with Ashley. Flowers actually takes a deep dive into the strange and surreal to explain some the world's most bizarre true crime occurrences each week. She'll dig into a different crime or mystery where the most fitting theory isn't always the most conventional from exorcisms to unsolved murders to alien abductions. Ashley will take on. The tails challenged the unexplained anti-sect the facts with a heavy helping skepticism and rationale. So are you ready to get to the bottom of history's most peculiar events? Follow supernatural with Ashley. Flowers free on spotify. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Now back to the story after joining forces with another young gangster. Yep Kifune up and coming criminal thirty-four-year-old Chunky Kong decided. The time was ripe to plan a massive heist. They would steal a shipment of Rolex watches bound for the Hong Kong airport as the two men put their plan together. Chung remembered the advice given to him by his old CO worker. Wong Chee like a Taylor. Chung had to be meticulous. Every last detail mattered in preparation for the job. Chong-in Yep hired several henchmen. Chung made sure they knew to cover their faces and move quickly to avoid being identified by the police on February. Twenty Second Nineteen Ninety Chung. Yip an a few of their associates made their way to Kai Tak airport in Hong Kong. The men were wearing bulletproof vests and carrying heavy weapons but if everything went according to plan they wouldn't need them. Chung had a code of honor. He ordered his men to never harm civilians to only fire their weapons when absolutely necessary and to act as a unit a brotherhood parked at the airports delivery bay where an armored van would be arriving with the watches. The car arrived on schedule so far. So good wants to Van. Parked Chung gave the signal. The gangs swarm the armored van waving their guns around for intimidation. The delivery guards were easily outflanked. The criminals broke open the vehicle and grabbed as much merchandise as possible loading up armfuls of the expensive watches before escaping. They had stolen millions of dollars worth of products and fled unscathed. In under a minute. They slipped across the border into China to count their loot as the brains of the operation. Chung took forty percent of the spoils for himself. Divvying up the rest. Among the other men the Rolex Heist was so successful that a year later Chung. Yup and they're men decided to plan another robbery. This time they would target. An armored car said to be carrying seventeen point five million. Us dollars in thirty five million Hong Kong dollars not only was the potential loot going to be a bigger take than the watch heist. It was a lot riskier to an armored car would have trained security guards wielding automatic weapons. Had to be perfect if the gang didn't want to be caught or killed with this in mind Chung Yep and three other gangsters suited up with their own semiautomatic weapons then on July Twelfth Nineteen ninety-one. They headed back to the KAI. Tak Airport took their places and waited. When the armored car arrived Chung gave the go-ahead chaos ensued but the five gang members easily. Outmatched the armed guards in minutes Chung Yip and the others were driving off with approximately twenty million. Us dollars in cash. It was the largest single cash haul in Hong Kong's history to date once safely across the Chinese border. The thieves divided the money as before. Chong kept the largest share of the profits but divided the rest fairly among his men triads believed in brotherhood and taking care of each other. If Chung got rich they all would and rich he was Chung. Now have the money to do anything he pleased. And he used to indulge in his favorite hobby gambling every casino visit followed the same pattern an ostentatious yellow lamborghini rolled up to the entrance. A man stepped out. John was rather small with bushy eyebrows was always dressed in designer labels from head to toe. He certainly stood out in a crowd. Once inside he would immediately flagged down a cocktail server and order the most expensive whiskey on the menu. Tipping the waiter more money than they usually made in a week then. John made his way over to circle of friends where he ordered more drinks and food eventually. He switched to his preferred beverage orange juice. Chung was wary of drinking too much. He didn't want to become undignified. You had to concentrate on schmoozing and placing bets. None of his casino pals had any idea that Chung was one of the world's most notorious gangsters they all believed he was in the jewelry business. They didn't know that his only experience with jewelry stores was robbing them at gunpoint. In fact they didn't even know his real name Chong simply went by the nickname they had given him. Big Spender one night. Big Spender sat at one of the tables and started placing his bats. He won then he went again. He double down again and again. His friends looked on in awe. As the Jackpot reached the millions Chung placed his final bet and lost it all just like that. Cheung was out of what amounted to twenty five million. Us dollars his entourage expected their resident high roller to shout or flip over the table but Chung remained astonishingly calm instead. He finished his orange juice and suggested that the group continued the party at his town house. The guests were treated to a tour of big spenders apartment passing his pricey art collection which consisted of mostly tablist and Buddhist statues as well as busts of himself and a sphinx like statue of his wife. Luo Yan Fong. One guest wandered into Cheung's massive bedroom where a giant letter M. was carved into the headboard Chung explained that the m stood for money. All thanks to money. The world was at his fingertips until it all came crashing down distracted by gambling and partying. Chung it slipped a few months after the armored car heist. The police successfully identified him. As the number one suspect they put pressure on local triad members to come forward with anything tying the incidents to Chung even went after Chong's wife and shook her down for information but to no avail in the end to Chung's men turned on him and September of Nineteen Ninety one. He was tried for the armed robbery and sentenced to eighteen years in prison. We'll Chunky Kong was no stranger to life behind bars. This time was different. It was wealthy now and a respected. If elusive member of Hong Kong's high-society. He couldn't believe that the police had the audacity to lock him up in his mind. These officers were the real criminals. They took money from the taxpayers and used it to go after innocent. People like him as opposed to violent offenders. This perspective isn't uncommon among criminals. Stanton knee SAM now. A clinical psychologist reports that nearly all criminal offenders view themselves as good people. They often excuse their behavior by citing their religion and good deeds or by stating that other criminals have committed more heinous crimes than themselves while in prison. Chung claimed that he was treated. He alleged that in order to get a confession from him. Police officers hit him with sticks and whipped him with belts he also said. They tortured his wife leaving both of them with scars. Chong wasted away in prison losing any hope of speedy appeal however only eighteen months into his lengthy sentence lock was back on Chung side. During one of his appeals. A guard who was present at the Kai. Tak robbery failed to properly identify Chung. The charges were dropped in June. Nineteen ninety five. The forty year old Cheung Kong was released from prison but John was hardly in the mood to celebrate his newfound freedom. His time behind bars had left him. Extremely bitter what. Good were his promises to remain nonviolent. If he ended up in prison with the murderers anyway to make matters worse his own triad brothers had betrayed him. The UNBREAKABLE BONDS OF THE TRIAD BROTHERHOOD. Apparently could be broken. Chang's honor codes seemed irrelevant to him now. He found himself at a crossroads and decided to move forward alone. All he had to do was pick his next crime at this point. Chun had run the gamut of armed robbery yet proven to himself that he was as capable of executing seemingly impossible heists as he was small theft he felt confident that he can pull off a crime of even greater magnitude. It also had to be more lucrative. Prison HADN'T TAMED. Chung's appetite for wealth. If anything it made him more insatiable Roderick Broadhurst a professor of criminology noted that Chun's willingness to go to extremes for money isn't really uncommon. We live in a society measured by wealth and status. So it's unsurprising that when people can't earn the money they desire through conventional means. They turned to innovative. In sometimes illegal methods. Chung was no exception. He was obsessed with money and he would stop at nothing to feed his greed. With this goal in mind he settled on his most radical scheme. Yet it was going to kidnap the ten richest men Hong Kong and hold them for ransom. Coming up Chung goes after his first victim back to the story in June. Nineteen ninety-five forty-year-old. Cheung Kong had recently been released from his second stint in prison. But this time he made no effort to turn his life around and go legit he had gotten a taste of the good life and he was willing to do anything to hold onto it including kidnapping people for ransom. Chong had devised a dramatic scheme. He was going to abduct the ten wealthiest men in Hong Kong and hold them for ransom. Having settled on this plan Chung got down to the specifics who to kidnap I ultimately. He decided on thirty one year old. Victor Lee the son of one of Hong Kong's wealthiest businessmen and the heir to his father's Fortune Chauncey. Kahn had a lot in common with victor's father. Sixty eight year old. Li ka-shing neither grew up particularly wealthy and both men had taken huge risks that resulted in vast wealth. But while Chong used illegal means Li ka-shing had honed his legacy honestly in one thousand nine hundred ninety six sixty eight year old businessman. Li ka-shing was the richest man. In Asia. Hong Kongers affectionately referred to him as Superman for his quintessential rags to riches tale Li ka-shing and his family fled to Hong Kong from mainland China during the Second World War. Shortly afterwards lease father died of tuberculosis saddling. His sixteen year old son with financial responsibility for the whole family Lee began working at a factory where he was eventually promoted to manager by the age of twenty two. He had saved up enough meager earnings to open his very own plastics factory. Cheung Kong Industries Lease Company proved to be massively successful and he used his profits to branch out into other lucrative industries shrewd businessman. He invested in energy solutions technologies and building developers throughout the world as well as real estate in Hong Kong in spite of his wealth. Li ka-shing was well loved. He had a solid reputation for being a man of his word stating that a verbal yes or no is as good as a written contract and he was a very modest family man. His pride and joy in life was his son. Victor Thirty one year old. Victor had spent his formative years being groomed to take over. Cheung Kong Industries. He studied civil engineering at Stanford University before moving to Vancouver where he oversaw one of his father's subsidiary companies Husky Energy. When Victor came aboard the company was doing quite poorly but victor side as an opportunity to prove himself by one thousand nine hundred ninety Husky energy was thriving and Victor. Li had been promoted to co-chairman impressed by his sons initiative. Li ka-shing invited victor to return to Hong Kong and worked directly underneath him at Cheung Kong headquarters by Nineteen ninety-six thirty one year old. Victor was well established at Cheung Kong. Little did he know that criminal mastermind. Cheung Kong was watching his every move. Chung's men gathered information. About what time victor left home in the morning? How long it took him to get to work. What kind of car? He drove and where he went to lunch. Once Chung piece together victor schedule he discovered that on May Twenty Third Nineteen ninety-six. Victor was scheduled to visit his father's home in deep water. Bay Chung thought. This was as good a time as any to strike the evening of May Twenty Third. Victor wrapped up his last meeting for the day. He was looking forward to a quiet night with his family and his dark blue. Nissan President Limousine was waiting outside for him but Chunky Kong and four other men were waiting for him to victor. Li casually tossed his briefcase into the back seat of the Waiting Limo. But before he had a chance to slide into his seat he was blindsided. Five men tackled him shoving a blindfold over his face in a split second before he was blindfolded. Victor caught a glimpse of the assault. Rifles that Chung in the four other men were carrying you felt calloused hands. Hold his arms behind his body while someone else bound his wrists and legs with chains. Victor heard several different voices but he couldn't tell how many from what he could tell. One man was in charge. The whole ordeal happened. In a matter of seconds even victor's driver couldn't react fast enough to help Chung and his men tossed victor into a waiting truck and started driving hours past. Victor had no idea where they were headed. He was worried they had crossed the border into China or his chances of being discovered were slim after what felt like ours. Victor was dragged from the car and tossed into a small dark place that had wooden walls and no windows. This was hardly a room. It was more like a wooden crate. The kind used for shipping cargo one of the henchmen handed victor a bowl of steamed pork and rice. He accepted not knowing when or if he was going to get any more food. Victor wondered if he should just ask the man what was going on or what they wanted from him but that could potentially be more dangerous. You decided to keep his mouth shut. All he could do was wait for answers. Meanwhile at Lea- ka-shing's palatial home in Deep Water Bay Road Victor's billionaire father anxiously awaiting his arrival. Dinner was almost ready. And it wasn't like victor to be so late. Finally the doorbell rang. One of the maids went to the door. Expecting to see victor but her jaw dropped in terror when she saw a different familiar face to recognized him from the newspaper. Chunky Kong the criminal. Who Had Rob Kai Tak? Airport Chung demanded to see Li ka-shing immediately. He informed -ly that if he ever wanted to see his son again it would cost him two billion Hong Kong dollars. Thanks again for tuning into hostage each next week. We'll be back to discuss. How Chung seekonk secured the biggest ransom payment in history and how one kidnapping eventually led to another. You can find more episodes of hostage and all other par- cast originals for free on spotify. Not only to spotify already. Have all your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all your favorite podcast originals like hostage for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream hostage on spotify. Just open the APP and type hostage in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at par cast and twitter at Park has network. We'll see you next time. In the meantime don't take your freedom or granted hostage was created by Max Cutler. And as a podcast studios original executive producers include Max Enron cutler sound designed by Russell Nash With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Aaron Larson. This episode of hostage was written by Kathleen Cruiser with Writing Assistance by Kate Gallagher and stars Irma Blanco and Carter Roy listeners. Don't forget to check out the new podcast. Original series supernatural with Ashley. Flowers every Wednesday. Take a deep dive into the strange and surreal to find the truth behind. Some of the world's most bizarre crimes trust me. These episodes are weird and wonderful search for supernatural with Ashley Flowers in the spotify APP and listen free today.
Cheung Tze-keung Pt. 2
"This episode features discussions of kidnapping and violence that some people may find offensive listener. Discretion is advised especially for children under thirteen may twenty third nineteen ninety six thirty one year old businessman. Victor Li sat locked inside a dark room trying to make sense of what was happening to him. It had only been a few hours since he had left his office. In Hong Kong to visit his father now he was the prisoner of armed assailants. Who had kidnapped him off. The sidewalk and thrown into a van has the long hours past. Victor grew increasingly uncomfortable. He hadn't gone to the bathroom in hours and his bound. Arms and legs were beginning to cramp anxiety flooded. His mind did his father. No he was missing. Would anyone be able to find him? His thoughts were interrupted by the return of his captors. The men blindfolded Victor and jostled him outside into a waiting van as they drove victor. Try to remain calm. Was it all over or was he about to die? This is hostage. Apar- cast original every week. We tell the stories behind the most captivating hostage situations and the people inside them. We'll also cover. The psychological tactics used in kidnapping situations. And what the human brain does when held captive Irma Blanco. And I'm Carter Roy. You can find episodes of hostage and all other park cast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream hostage for free on spotify. Just open the APP type hostage in the search bar at par cast. We are grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network? This is our second episode of one of Hong. Kong's most notorious gangsters Cheung Kong and ransom kidnappings he committed in nineteen ninety six and nineteen ninety-seven last week. We discussed chauncey early life. And how his obsession with wealth led him to commit to ransom kidnappings as part of a master plan to extort the ten wealthiest men in Hong Kong? His first target was thirty one year old. Victor Lee the son of Hong Kong's wealthiest man Li ka-shing this week we'll delve into the fallout of lease kidnapping. And how it inspired Chung to go after the forty seven year old property development tycoon. Walter Kwok will also discuss. How an unexpected cooperation? Between Hong Kong and mainland China ultimately led to Chung's demise when sixty eight year old billionaire Li ka-shing into his front door on the night of May Twenty Third Nineteen Ninety six. He was expecting to see his son. Victor apologized for being so late instead. He found himself face to face with the infamous criminal. Forty-one-year-old chauncey calm and four other armed. Men Leave recognized Chung immediately. He was wanted by the police for multiple crimes including two high profile robberies at the Kai. Tak Airport the second of which had been the largest cash robbery in Hong Kong's history. There was hardly a person in Hong Kong. Who didn't know Chung secons name as Hong Kong's wealthiest Man Lee knew? It was no coincidence that the thief had chosen his front door to knock on but nothing could have prepared him for what Chong was about to say. The criminal informed Lee that he had captured his son. Victor and if Lee ever wanted to see him again he would have to pay two billion Hong Kong dollars now. We was stunned. He asked where they had taken. Victor but Chong shook his head and repeated the demand. Two billion dollars or victor was dead. Shaking Lee tried to assess how he could gather the money he knew as well as Chong that if anyone could access billions of dollars at a moment's notice it was him his company. Cheung Kong Industries had made him a multi-billionaire and victor was in line for the throne but Lee wasn't worried about the money or his company. He just wanted his son back on your shortland. A professor in political economy assesses that in kidnapping for ransom cases. The hostage is returned alive about ninety percent of the time on. This is because the kidnapper is usually willing to negotiate in feasible deal can often be reached. Shortland also stresses that when faced with a ransom kidnapper dilemma. One should not immediately give in to the criminals demands. The hostage taker is likely to interpret this as evidence that more money is available and they will continue to up the ransom amount. Instead shortland advises keeping the criminal in the dark about one's financial resources. The captive will typically be released for a fraction of the original demand of course most individuals when faced with a kidnapper. Aren't thinking like rational business people. They're more concerned with the release of their loved. Ones and their minds are racing with worst case scenarios like torture and execution but wittingly or not Li ka-shing did the right thing shaking. He told Chung that he couldn't gather so much money at a moment's notice but he would try to come up with what he could. He certainly didn't give so much money lying about in his home. Leah's Chung if he could go to the bank for a withdrawal but the criminal shook his head this could arale suspicion and possibly alert the authorities when cheeky move on lease part and the whole plan could fall apart Lee understood and said he would do his best but he knew there was no way together that much money from inside the house under the supervision of Chung and his men Lee drained every hiding place and wallet in his home. He tried to come up with enough cash and valuables to satisfy the steep ransom demand. All the while worrying about his poor son finally having exhausted all his immediate resources. Li presented Chung with his loot. He knew it wasn't enough but he hoped Chung would settle for it surely he couldn't be expected together two billion if he wasn't even allowed to go to the bank. Lee watched with dread as the men counted their spoils. They were one billion short. Chung glared at Lea- incredulous. He could hardly believe that. A man as wealthy as Li ka-shing could only cough up half the amount on a smaller scale. Chong himself knew what it meant to be wealthy. His criminal escapades had paid off and his double life was lavish to him. Money was something to gamble with and enjoy and Chong's own home reflected. This opulence but Lee was a different breed. He was shrewd he invested. And he certainly didn't keep two billion dollars lying about his comparatively modest mansion once again. Li explained that he couldn't come up with two billion unless John allowed him to go to the bank and for the first time the criminal considered it he could get away with the full amount. If everything went smoothly but ultimately Chung couldn't risk it. If there was one place he had sworn never to go back to. It was prison. Besides one billion dollars was a lot of money. Five Times the amount he had obtained in his last airport robbery and it was plenty to fund his lavish lifestyle but grudgingly. He agreed to settle for one billion dollars half his original ask. He ordered Li ka-shing to pack up the money for him as Lee placed the cash. In bags he has Chong why he was doing this. Chung replied. I take unconventional steps to get rich. Money is the most important thing in life. But it's only me who can get away with kidnapping tycoons Charleena's men grabbed the bags of cash. Jong delivered a final warning if Lee or victor ever told the police about the kidnapping they would be dead. We nod and watched as the vans sped off into the night. Now all he could do was wait hoping that Chong would hold up his end of the bargain meanwhile victor was locked inside. Chun's hideout just over the border in mainland China. It had only been a few hours since his capture when his captors finally returned they blindfolded Victor and hurried him outside into a van as they drove. Victor imagined the worst. Perhaps they were taking him away to be murdered. His body could be buried somewhere. It would never be found and victor's family would never know why their son had disappeared. It was all too confusing and sickening for victor to come to grips with a few hours later. The van rolled to a stop. The car doors opened in several hands helped victor as he stumbled onto the sidewalk. He felt the crisp night air on his skin has one of his captors began untying his blindfold as it fell away. Victor recognized his surroundings. He was standing in the driveway of his father's house. In deep water. Bay Hong Kong Victor was bewildered. Was He being released? Was his family going to be harmed. He turned around and for the first time. Locked eyes with his captor the infamous Chunky Kong as victor stared at Chung. He could hardly register who this person was and what they wanted but before he could make sense of the situation. Chong stepped forward. He grabbed victor's face leaned in and planted a kiss on his forehead. Then he told victor he had been a good boy and he promised never to harm him or his family again back in his hideout. Chon divided the spoils amongst his comrades keeping forty percent for himself. He was happy that it pulled off. Such a new and brave stunt it was proof to Chung that. His master plan was feasible if he could kidnap the son of the wealthiest man in China and get away with it then he could kidnap anyone especially the rest of China's tycoons and he had stuck to his personal motto never to physically harm someone unless absolutely necessary. It wouldn't be long before he made his next move coming up. Chunky Kong targets his next victim. Podcast listeners you enjoy stories about crime. Mystery and the unexplained. You'll absolutely love the new podcast original series supernatural with Ashley Flowers. It's hosted by Crime Junkies Ashley. Flowers and you can hear new episodes every Wednesday. A most mysteries can be solved by looking at the facts but sometimes the facts don't lead to a logical explanation and the truth lies somewhere in the unknown in supernatural with Ashley. Flowers actually takes a deep dive into the strange and surreal to explain some of the world's most bizarre true crime occurrences each week. She'll dig into a different crime or mystery where the most fitting theory isn't always the most conventional from exorcisms to unsolved murders to alien abductions. Ashley will take on. The tails challenged the unexplained anti-sect check the facts with a heavy helping of skepticism and rationale. So are you ready to get to the bottom of history's most peculiar events? Follow supernatural with Ashley. Flowers free on spotify. Or wherever you get your podcasts. Now back to the story in nineteen ninety six forty one year old gangster Chung Tikan completed phase one of his plan to kidnap the ten richest men in Hongkong. He had successfully captured thirty one year. Old Victor Li and victor's father sixty eight year old multi-billionaire Li ka-shing had paid one billion Hong Kong dollars for his son's release. It was the largest ransom in Hong Kong history. One billion dollars would have lasted many people a lifetime but Chung wasn't the average person he was addicted to gambling and unbridled spending. Wouldn't be long before he needed more cash but first he had to wait and make sure the police weren't after him for Victor's kidnapping. This could raise publicity. Putting Hong Kong's other wealthy citizens on Edge Chung decided to bide his time yet as he dipped into his new money. He couldn't help. But think of Li ka-shing here was Hong Kong's richest man and even he didn't spend money the way that Chung did instead Lee saved and invested it. Perhaps this was the secret to his enormous wealth. Chong mold is over and gradually. A new idea occurred to him. He would ask Li ka-shing himself. It had been weeks since the kidnapping and both Li ka-shing and Victor Li had returned to work at their family's company Cheung Kong Industries. They were eager to move on with their lives. Neither had approached the police for fear of inciting revenge. They were simply thankful. The ordeal was over and hopeful that John would stick to his promise. Never to bother them again. But Chung had other ideas when Li ka-shing answered his phone one evening he couldn't believe his ears. Cheung Kong was on the other end Lee stomach filled with dread as he thought of his other son. Victor's brother Richard But Chong quickly reassured Lee that he was asking about a simple business matter. He wanted advice on finances specifically what he should do to grow his one billion dollars should he invest his new money in stocks or did Lee recommend real estate. Lee was flabbergasted. How dare song ask him what to do with his money? He told Chung that he only had one piece of advice. Take the money and start an honorable life. Leave him and his family alone. Chogm considered this possibility. Perhaps he could take his wife. Luo Yin Yang and relocate to somewhere. He had no reputation. He could have a fresh start. And maybe even build a business likely ka-shing's empire Cheung Kong Industries but Chung didn't have the tenacity to do it. His gambling addiction his tastes for luxury and his greed were too powerful. Besides the only trade Chung had ever known was that of being a criminal he doubted he could ever succeed at anything else. At least not with the kind of luck he was used to and so after a year of waiting to make sure the police weren't onto him. John was confident that the time was right. He's zeroed in on his next target. Forty-seven-year-old property developer. Walter Kwok in nineteen ninety-seven Walter. Kwok was in the prime of his life. He was part of one of the wealthiest families in Hong Kong and he and his brothers ran their late. Father's company Sung Hung Kai properties. They were responsible for some of Hong. Kong's most famous commercial buildings and large apartment complexes Walter was the company's chairman and chief executive he was capable and quick thinking a born leader and if there is one thing he knew best. It was to negotiate. Walter was an expert at honing deals for his family's company and he knew that nothing was ever worth as much as the original asking price but he had no idea that these skills which soon come into play as September nineteen ninety-seven approached Chung. Tea Calm had settled on Walter as his target. He knew Walter Schedule Front back where he lived and what kind of car he drove. Finally he was ready to make his move on the evening of September. Twenty Ninth Nineteen ninety-seven. Walter was on his way home when Chun and his men cornered his limousine and forced Walter outside they blindfolded Walter bound his arms and legs and wrestled him into their waiting Van. Walter kicked and yelled but it was no use. He was at the mercy of ruthless criminals. Now inside the van Walter was disoriented an anxious. Who were these men? And what did they have against him? It wouldn't be long before he found out a few hours later. The car came to a stop. The men jumped out dragging their terrified captive with them the unbound Walter's limbs and untied his blindfold before shoving him inside a small wooden crate. Walter was terrified. He tried to steady his breath and focus on the small noises around him. An hour passed and the crate finally reopened one of the men handed Walter a bowl of roast pork and rice but Walter shook his head. The man urged him to eat and shut the door. Walter Obediently Chewed Food. But he could barely taste it. His mind was racing with possibilities. Food meant that he was being kept alive but this could also mean he would be here a long time. His thoughts were interrupted as the door to his crate opened again. It was Chung Secon Jong Thrust prepaid phone into Walter's trembling hands in demanded that he call his family. Walter slowly shook his head. There was no way he was getting his family involved. The kidnappers could have him but he would not put his brothers his wife Wendy or their three children in harm's way but Chung remained firm. He demanded that Walter call his wife and request one billion dollars in ransom money. The same amount he had received from Li ka-shing to Chun. This was a reasonable request for someone as wealthy as Walter. If Li ka-shing could access one billion dollars at a moment's notice his family could certainly do whatever it took to gather the same amount but walters mind was made up under no circumstances. Was he about to involve his family. Besides if there was one thing Walter understood it was a negotiation especially when money was involved. He defiantly handed the phone back to Chung. He said that a Chung wanted to negotiate. They could do it here. One on one Sean was astonished. No one not even his own comrades ever dared to defy him yet hear was Walter Kwok a defenseless captive refusing to comply with an order furious. Chung ordered his men to beat up. Walter they descended upon the billionaire punching and kicking him psychologist anger. Management Specialist Bernard Golden. Phd explains that control. Tactics often stem from feelings of being slighted. He says they may attempt to control you in reaction to an intense sense of slight they experience when your thoughts feelings behavior don't exactly aligned with how they believe you should be in the case of Chung. He had an idea of how Walter's kidnapping was supposed to go. And how compliant Walter was going to be and when this didn't happen. He resorted to the only means. He had left to assert his control violence. He had a long standing belief that violence should be a last resort and in his. Is this situation. Called for brute. Force after several minutes of this savage beating Walter was bruised and coughing up blood now. John was confident that his captive would give in. But Walter still refused to make the call. Chung glared at Walter. He was determined to get his money. No matter how nasty things got he would simply come back tomorrow. On September thirtieth twenty four hours after Walter's kidnapping Chunky Kong was confident. That is hostage would reconsider the offer to call his family and asked for the ransom. But when Chung Open Walters crate that morning. Their captive was no more willing to call his family than he had been yesterday. In fact Walter was sure that by now his family would be looking for him. His wife would be wondering why he hadn't come home yet and his brother would expect him at work. One of Chung's men gave him another bowl of pork and rice. Which Walter Willingly Eight? He knew he had to stay. Strong Wind Walter was finished. Eating Chon handed him the phone once more and again Walter refuse to call his family. Chung gave the signal and his men descended on Walter once more. They beat him mercilessly until he nearly blacked out. But Walter was resolute either. Chung dealt with him or nothing. This vicious cycle continued for one more day by the end. Walter could barely eat. His breathing was labored and his body was crumpled from pain and so on October. Third Nineteen ninety-seven. His fourth day in captivity. Walter finally asked for the phone trembling. He called his wife Wendy. When Wendy answered she was beside herself with relief she hadn't heard from her husband for days and no one knew where he was. But Walter's voice was not reassuring he sounded hurt and out of breath speaking was taking every last ounce of his strength and Wendy could tell something was deeply wrong at this point. Walter had given up all hope on a negotiation. He simply wanted to go home alive. He told Wendy that she needed to put together. One billion dollars for the ransom up next the police close in on Chung Secon now back to the story on September Twenty Ninth Nineteen Ninety seven forty two year old Hong Kong criminal Chunky Kong kidnapped forty seven year. Old Property tycoon. Walter Kwok and transported him over the border to a hideout in China at first wall to refuse to call this family to obtain the one billion Hong Kong dollars ransom money that is capture was demanding but after four days of merciless beatings. He finally gave in and called his wife. Wendi it remains unclear whether Walters family had yet gone to the police about their brother's disappearance but at this point they knew that their brothers safety depended on keeping the negotiations a secret. Finally Chong and Walter arranged a secret meeting between his mother Kwan. Chow Ching in one of his brothers in downtown Hong Kong's financial district. They met at one of the luxury apartments owned by. Walter's family there Kwong Xiaojing and her son worked out a final ransom amount with Cheung six hundred million Hong Kong dollars when the meeting had finished. The ransom amount was placed into twenty large duffle bags in transported by two. Mercedes to a quiet street in the financial district. Joan and his accomplices met the cars and drove away with the cash. Walter's family could only hope that Chung would make good on his end of the bargain on October. Sixth Chong and his men transported Walter over the border back into Hong Kong. His family found him inside a local village house packed inside his wooden crate. Chung's partying warning to both Walter and his family was that they should never speak to the police or media about the incident unless they wanted. More trouble Chung's second kidnapping had been more difficult than the first but it had still panned out. He had sufficiently intimidated. A billion dollar family and their company into quietly seating hundreds of millions of dollars without alerting. The police and he was more confident than ever that he could continue his plan to kidnap the ten wealthiest men in Hong Kong. He would do the same thing as he had done following Victor Lease Kidnapping in Nineteen ninety-six way to make sure no one was onto him before going after his next target but a plan for his capture was taking form in the months following. Chun's second contact with Lee Shing. The multi-billionaire used his connections to quietly reach out to Hong Kong police urging them to pursue Chong. The police informed Lee that well. Chung was on their radar. He would be extremely difficult to track down. Like many of Hong Kong's criminals. He made use of the proximity of China to hide out. In between crimes beginning in nineteen ninety seven Hong Kong was fully reabsorbed into China following. Its one hundred year lease to Britain but two decades before with Hong Kong and China had settled on a firm one country two systems policy. This meant that while Hong Kong was freshly incorporated as a territory of China it retained its own legal system and as long as Cheung Kong was hiding out in China Hong Kong authorities could not pursue him. Li ka-shing was well aware of this barrier but he nonetheless used his status urged. The police to concentrate on Chong's capture. Finally he told About his son's kidnapping this changed everything. A one billion dollar ransom kidnapping was plenty of reason to go after Chung earnestly. The police understood with this could mean for the rest of Hong Kong's upper class so far no criminal had attempted this kind of feet in Hong Kong and Chung could not be allowed to continue even as Walter. Kwok's kidnapping was happening. The police were already at work trying to flush Chong from his hiding place. In China they targeted known members of Hong Kong's triad gangs networked which Chung loosely belonged. Police track down members both in and out of prison harassing them into dispelling information but the Chhaya ad was a loyal tight knit brotherhood and asking someone to turn on. Fellow member was difficult. Meanwhile Chong was living the high life with his ransom money. He was gambling millions at a time and had even taken his wife and children on a vacation to Johannesburg South Africa but his crimes were also continuing as Walter. Kwok's kidnapping secretly unfolded in Nineteen ninety-seven. The police were already in hot pursuit and finally his kidnapping attempts blown wide open following the arrest of one of his oldest friends and associates yet. Kifune Chong attempted his third kidnapping that of Hong Kong's Chief Secretary for Administration Anson Chan but this failed miserably then in January of Nineteen Ninety. Eight police uncovered eight hundred kilograms of explosives planted at several of Hong Kong's government buildings. They traced it back to John. This was perhaps Chung's most serious crime and the police were now offering bribes and reduced sentences for Cooperative Triad Gang members. Eventually a few came forward in a rare collaboration with the Chinese police the authorities were finally able to close in on Chauncey Kung's hideout in China in August of Nineteen Ninety eight. They arrested him on multiple charges including kidnapping robbery and possession of explosives. Still Chong was hopeful. As a Hong Kong criminal he fully expected to be transported across the border from China for a trial in Hong Kong. Moreover Hong Kong did not utilize capital punishment whereas China did if a person committed a crime in Hong Kong but was arrested in mainland China or vice versa. They would typically be extradited to the appropriate side of the border and tried and punished there as the majority of Chunky Kung's offenses were committed in Hong Kong. It was to be assumed that Chung be tried there however in a very controversial move. Hong Kong and Chinese court sidestepped the One Country. Two Systems Policy and decided that Chung could be tried in Guangzhou China. This had never been done before people. In Hong Kong were particularly shocked they valued their justice system as being more fair than China besides Chung was essentially their criminal. The bulk of his crimes had been perpetrated against Hong Kong citizens. One particularly furious onlooker was Gladys Li the former chairman of the Hong Kong Bar Association. She speculated that under such changes a Hong konger could potentially be arrested in China for something perfectly legal in Hong Kong but you're legal in mainland China and therefore face persecution. She felt Chong's case could spell this sort of disaster for Hong Kong citizens as she feared for Hong Kong's economy lawyer Ivan Tang echoed these concerns citing that the failure to extradite. Chong to Hong Kong was also the death of Hong Kong's One Country Two Systems agreement with China even as the details of the kidnappings remained largely private. Chung's case became an overnight sensation. Hongkongers were coming out to protest the trial of Cheung Kong on the basis of their own liberty. No one questioned chunks guilt or that he should be brought to but the blatant sidestepping of one country two systems made them angry who meanwhile in prison John continued to play the part of a high rolling gangster in spite of his legal situation. He relish the attention and his infamy the tales of his gambling exploits were known both inside and outside the prison giving him a sense of pride he becomes somewhat of a folk hero to many people and he wanted them to remember the legacy of big spender by the time. Chauncey trial began on October. Eighth Nineteen Ninety Eight. He had exhausted all of appeals. There was no hope of extradition to Hong Kong from the First Day Chung Z. Kong knew there was little hope of ever again being a free man in a surprising move. He made a full confession on that first day of the proceedings. No more big spender bravado. It was all over now. Hong Kong citizens might have been mad but the world believed he was guilty as he sat in the Guangzhou courtroom John and his lawyer stated repeatedly that his crimes were committed in Hong Kong in a last ditch effort to have him extradited and to avoid the death penalty. There protests fell on deaf ears. Chung was found guilty on all charges and sentenced to on December Fifth Nineteen Ninety Eight. The forty three year old criminal was led out of his prison cell and out into the middle of an empty field. They're a firing squad was waiting for him. He bowed his head and said one. Final prayer then he died. Jong was now dead but to victims still had to move on with their lives. Robert T muller a professor of psychology reports that no matter how long they're held hostage most kidnapping victims deal with some sort of emotional aftermath. They may feel depressed have vivid nightmares and flashbacks and often become hyper vigilant and very aware of their surroundings. Both Victor Li and Walter Kwok displayed these effects following his kidnapping. Victor continue to wrong Cheung Kong industries and expand his father's company into several new areas including telecommunications retail imports. He is now married with children. Those closest to victor however claim that he is still very suspicious of strangers and has a general around people after the incident. He employed a personal security team and he's rarely seen in public without them. Other victim Walter. Kwok suffered silently for many years not wanting to come forward or seek help for depression and lingering trauma ultimately affected his family's business where he had been the top leader Walter's brother Raymond told reporters that after the kidnapping Walter was unable to fulfil his duties. As Chairman of Sung Hung Kai properties. He was suspicious of strangers and overly conscious of how other people were treating him by two thousand eight. He was asked to step down from Sung. I but Walter did find success in his future. After leaving his family's company he went on to found his own successful development company until his death in two thousand eighteen. Thanks again for tuning into hostage and we'll be back next week with another episode. You can find more episodes of hostage and all other podcasts. For Free on spotify not only spotify already. Have all of your favorite music now? Spotify is making easy for you to enjoy. All of your favorite podcast originals. Like hostage for free from your phone. Desktop or smart speaker to stream hostage on spotify. Just open the APP and type hostage in the search bar and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at Park East. In twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. In the meantime don't take your freedom for granted hostage was created by Max Cutler. And his a par cast studios original executive producers include Maxon Ron Cutler sound designed by Russell Nash With Production Assistance by Ron Shapiro Carleen Madden Isabel. Away in Paul Moller. This episode of hostage was written by Kathleen Chrysler with writing assistance by Kate. Gallagher and stars Irma Blanco and Carter Roy Hi Listeners don't forget to check out the new podcast original series supernatural with Ashley Flowers every Wednesday. Take a deep dive into the strange and surreal to find the truth behind the world's most bizarre crimes. Trust me these episodes are weird and wonderful search for supernatural with Ashley Flowers in the spotify APP and listen free today.
Michael Houghtons 30-year quest to cure Hepatitis C
"In this podcast is brought to you by the canada foundation for innovation. Welcome to the innovation. Now podcast today. We're by dr michael. Houghton canada excellence research chair in virology at the university of alberta dr hadden's research focuses on developing a vaccine for hepatitis. C. dr houghton. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you pleasure to be here before we get into your research. I'd like you to tell us a bit about hepatitis c. How common is this disease in. Canada and worldwide worldwide There's around a one hundred million. People infected with hepatitis. C in canada the estimates almost two hundred and fifty thousand people are infected with the virus today and what happens to a person when they become infected with hepatitis. C it starts off being a fairly harmless infection but what happens over time. Most people cannot eradicate the virus most people become persistently infected and over the course of years that can develop into severe liver disease is like lissa roses and liver cancer and in some cases fatality. So it's a slow virus. That slowly develops severe disease if left untreated so it sounds like something that people might not even be aware that they actually are infected. One of the problems is that many areas in canada and worldwide. I'm not aware that they're carrying the virus and that is dangerous because the longer time goes on the more chance there is of them developing serious liver disease and in the case of liver cancer even the most recent powerful drugs that we have available to treat the infection it will not reverse the liver cancer so this can be fatal disease then oh yes if left untreated around five percent or so of people will develop end stage liver disease which is fatal and often requires a liver transplant and of course they are limited in number and even if it's not fatal is there a lot of pain and suffering associated with the disease when it begins to manifest yes around twenty percent of people entering affected will develop liver cirrhosis and that often is clinically disabling fatigue pain nausea and become serious liver. Cirrhosis is generally a serious condition and From there many of the liver psoriatic patients develop liver cancer. Which of course is faithful. Unless get a liver transplant. So are there any particular groups of people who are most vulnerable to this infection. So back in the seventies eighties. There was a huge risk of getting hepatitis. C infection following a blood transfusion. It was estimated that almost one in ten canadians that got a transfusion in the seventies and eighties. Get hepatitis c. Fortunately now we have tests to protect the blood supply and now you cannot get habsi following a transfusion today. There are up to ten thousand new infections of hepatitis c. Every year in canada sixty to seventy percent of those are in people who use drugs illicit drug use sharing needles and other equipment for drug use other sources of infection today exposure to body fluids babies can be infected from positive mothers for example males who have sex with other males are at risk for transmitting hepatitis. C. and healthcare workers who frequently exposed to blood are also at risk so in total around. Ten thousand infections occur every year in canada today. And we need to do something about that i. It sounds a lot like aids in the way that it's transmitted yes hepatitis. C is transmitted like hiv through through blood exposure. So it's a blood borne virus and anytime there's blood transfer There's a high risk of hepatitis c. If the person transferring the blahdy. Hepatitis c positive. Of course so. I wanted to go back to you. Were saying how in the nineteen eighties. There was a large risk of transmission through blood transfusion. And i was in the eighty s in one thousand nine hundred nine that you and your colleagues discovered the hepatitis c virus. You actually identified this virus. I am curious. How did you find it. And i know there's a large site explanations i can boil it down and laypersons term. Well let me just say first of all we knew that was the virus causing hepatitis. After transfusion blood borne virus that we knew that in one thousand nine hundred ninety four and it took fifteen years to identify hepatitis. My lab worked on it for seven years. Fortunately not fifteen years. The reason why it took so long to find is the unlike hepatitis. a and hepatitis b. the amount of hepatitis c in patients is much smaller. You know one of the way. It persists one in the body. Is that. it's relatively low tide and it also masks itself from the immune system so it was very very hard to get a a molecular handle on hep c. and that's why it took fifteen years the way we eventually solved. It was as you said working with my colleagues Quilliam chew and george kua. We basically did. What would now be called a rodeo mix experiment and to try to describe it in as basic as possible We use bacteria and we cloned every piece of nucleic acid from an infectious blood sample into bacteria you end up with millions and millions of bacterial clones each expressing piece of nucleic acid in the infectious blood. And then you can persuade the bacteria to express that nucleic acid into a protein. And what you end. Up is a huge rodeo. Mix library where you're expressing millions of different proteins that would originally encoded by the infectious blood. Then we took a gamble. We said well people that were diagnosed with non a non b hepatitis even though antibody had been shown to exist against the virus and even though the virus had been shown. We assume that that would be anybody's to the virus so we took sarah from those patients mixed it with the proteome libraries and argued and hoped and prayed that we would see an antibody antigen recognition so at the time. It was a huge long shot. We had been working on it for seven years so we were getting robert desperate and despite it really being a long shot it actually ended up working and after seven years we got one clone that we were able to show was from hepatitis. C. incredibly took us a long time to convince ourselves that it really was hepatitis. c but eventually we did it. It was an example of not talking yourself out of an experiment that you think is very high risk of working so i learnt from that so i ever since i take a lot of risks in my experimentation inundate took a lot of risk on hep c. as well how did that affect the prevention and treatment of hepatitis c. After you were able to say okay. This is the virus so once we had identified the virus an isolated. We were quickly able to develop blood tests to find out if a blood sample from a person. A blood donor or a patient had antibodies to see so we quickly developed the first blood tests for hep c. and then in nineteen ninety. They were approved in canada and that immediately picked up many many cases of infectious blood donors and that prevented post transfusion hepatitis. C. so in the space of a few years we developed a number of different tests hepatitis. C. between nineteen eighty-nine in one thousand. Nine hundred five we developed three different antibody tests and one tests for the viral itself. So over the course of set six years we went from a situation where the risk of getting habsi from a transfusion went from almost one in ten to zero so he went from ten percent to zero so i think globally are blood. Tests are prevented tens of millions of infections around the world. that's fantastic so prevention was one side. What about treatment did the discovery of the virus lead to treatments for hepatitis c. The discovery of the virus eventually led to very effective antiviral drugs to treat patients. It took a long time. So from the point we discovered the virus in nineteen eighty nine hundreds and thousands of is engaged in the work on on understanding. How the virus replicates and works and the field over the course of twenty five years eventually came up with very potent specific drugs targeting the virus that can now cure nearly all patients after one to three months of therapy and these are orally available drugs so now we have the ability to cure. Virtually everyone in the space of a couple of months. Now that their drugs you can treat it. You can screen for it. You can prevent a lot of the cases by now. You're developing a vaccine so if you can treat it and prevent it. Why are you develop a vaccine for it well. One of the problems is that we have very good drugs to cure hepatitis. C. individuals but in canada not all the county is diagnose. We estimate that only one half of the two hundred and fifty thousand carriers of the virus actually are aware of that so first of all you have to get people tested to find out if they have i remix so that's one issue. The second issue is when you know you're a carrier you should try to get the drugs to cure you of course but the drugs are very expensive. They started off costing one hundred thousand canadian dollars per patient. We hear now that the canadian pharmaceutical alliance has got the price down in negotiations. We companies to around thirty thousand dollars per patient. We we guess so. That's a big improvement but nonetheless given the number of carriers in canada almost two hundred and fifty thousand it would cost the country in the region of five to ten billion billion dollars to treat all of its carriers so we hope this will happen soon but the cost is an impediment as well as the diagnosis of the patients. Now we know that today does getting on for ten thousand new infections every year in canada now most of those are occurring in people who inject drugs. If we had a vaccine to give to those people we would drastically reduce the incidents and also if we gave the vaccine to those people most at risk the drug uses. It will be very cost effective. It will be. It will save many hundreds of millions of dollars by vaccinating them rather than wait until they get infected and then treating them with the antiviral drugs right. That's for the canadian population where we have drug users who are most at risk but on the global context in different countries and developing countries. What what a vaccine accomplish their a vaccine would be useful to many groups in canada. Iv drug users would benefit the most but healthcare workers who are frequently exposed to blood need to be protected and as our grandmothers told us. Prevention is better than cure and while we have drugs to kill people. You don't wanna get infected in the first place so. Healthcare workers would benefit from the vaccine in canada males who have sex with other males. We know risk of infection so they would benefit police officers. Who get involved in fights and bites as we say would have protection now. Canada is one of in some ways. It's a lucky country because it's prevalence of hep c. Is quite low. Compared with many other countries of the world in countries like certain countries in south america china mongolia the prevalence of hep c. Is much much greater than in canada and the incidence of infection is much greater so a vaccine is needed. Globally the world health authority estimates that there are one to two million infections every year of around the globe to stop that we need to develop a vaccine in general terms what we've learned from infectious disease research over the last fifty years. Is that if you want to really control and infectious disease. You really need to develop a vaccine. Having drugs to treat. Patients is not enough. A classic example would be zip louis. We have vaccines as effortless and yet today. There are still big outbreaks as if we can treat them. Treat the patients with antibiotics. But they're still big outbreaks of philis within the community because we do not have a vaccine and in the drugs are very cheap with. Fcd drugs are very expensive so we feel strongly that a vaccine is needed. Everyone in our field of hep c. Feels that we need a vaccine as a popular misconception that because we have good potent viral now to treat patients. We don't need a vaccine daddy's wrong we do. I'm curious about vaccines because it seems like vaccines have been around for a long time That we all go and get our shots for our measles mumps rubella and everything so from an outside perspective people could say well. Why is it so hard to develop a vaccine. Don't you already know how to make a vaccine so maybe run me through. What are the challenges. Why is it difficult to develop a vaccine for hepatitis c. It's been very difficult to develop a vaccine against appetite for several reasons. One is you need to know. If antibodies you can generate through our vaccine can actually inhibit the infection or as we say neutralize the infectivity of the virus and with apps even though we discovered it in one thousand nine hundred nine. We weren't able to grow it in cell culture until two thousand and five is an extremely difficult virus to grow in cell culture. Even today really. There's only one strain that came from japan that we are able to grow in cell culture efficiently and we can play some tricks. We can make america genomes from other strains around the world but using the japanese strain in that way we can get an idea of how vaccine can generate antibodies to neutralize of different strains around the world so being out of the virus in cell culture was wanting to the vaccine. The second impediment is we don't really have a convenient animal model to predict human infection. We used to use non human primates the chimpanzee but then that really became impossible as of a few years ago in the. Us there's a ban on using chimpanzees because they are in danger and so the lack of an animal model with a full immune response has really hindered the development of a vaccine. Also and then. I think thirdly it took us a long time to figure out because of those two caveats i already mentioned. It took a long time for people in the field to figure out of the correlates of protection. And what that means is what kind of immune response really correlates with protection in people. Now we feel. We know a lot more about what kind of immune responses protective. And we're able now to recapitulate those protective immune responses by vaccination. I think i read that. Some people who have hepatitis c and then their disease gets cleared. they can actually get the disease again. So does that mean. It's more difficult to against if having it once doesn't necessarily protect you against it so in terms of natural immunity If a person gets infected roughly twenty percent of those people will spontaneously resolve the infection without any drug treatment they have the ability to resolve indicate the virus selves and we think that what is protecting them neutralizing antibodies to the virus. And what we call cellular immune responses to eight. See the infected liver cells. Those tend to be very high in people that can spontaneously resolve the infection. Now when those people that resolve the infection once then see the virus again. We have evidence that they are relatively protected. They are unlikely to become persistent carriers when they encountered the virus the second time so the method of vaccination then needs to be one that recapitulates those immune responses in those people. Now another issue with this is if you take a person that is persistently infected with the virus their immune response obviously was unable to imitate the virus. That's why they became carriers and that's why they needed the antiviral drugs to cure them. What we know. Is that when you cure such a person. They are still susceptible to reinfection. And so we need a vaccine for two reasons to protect people that are high risk that have not yet been exposed to the virus and secondly we need a vaccine to immunize people that have been cured of the virus and then we want to try and reset their immune response so that when they see the virus again they will not become. Chronic persistent carriers. So how close are you. Do you think to developing a vaccine so working on a vaccine to hepatitis. C in the leaker shing institute of technology at the university of alberta We been researching it for seven years. And now at the point where we know what vaccine to make We hope and we're in the process of manufacturing it now on the what school. Gnp the these conditions prescribed by health canada. Such the product can be used in clinical trials to to stop testing the vaccine for safety and efficacy. So we're manufacturing the vaccine for human use right now at the university of alberta we hope to stop clinical trials may be the end of next year or early two thousand and nineteen. So it's some. It's a wonderful environment in the leaker shing institute at the university of alberta because not only can we do research we actually then translate the research into humans by actually manufacturing vaccine for clinical trials. What sort of equipment or infrastructure do you have at the university. Of alberta the li ka-shing institute that comes from the that is helping you with this research at the university of alberta i work within the leaker shing institute instituted viral aji also the department of medical microbiology immunology and over the years specifically in two thousand and two and then in two thousand six. We received thirty five million canadian dollars for two. Cf grants and what they gave us is really state of the equipment to do virology immunology and vaccine i joined the university of alberta in two thousand and ten and i really benefited from having state of the art equipment to use in my research without that we would not have been able to research to have see vaccine and produced it so the cfi has been incredibly important. It has been key to our work on the hep c. Vaccine now you've dedicated your life to discovering the elusive hepatitis. C virus to trying to screen for it and now to try to immunize against it. You're very close. What will you do after you've successfully develop a vaccine isn't your life's work finished at that point or what do you do next. We feel that we need a vaccine to go alongside the diagnostics and the antiviral drugs to really effectively control. Hepatitis c. In canada and around the world so that is a major goal of our field. It takes many many people. I mean we've had hundreds if not thousands of people working globally on hep c. And it's just amazing. How much effort and how much training and education it takes to come back a single virus. Unfortunately there are lots of other diseases that also very severe and very important. It's really amazing. And just how many disease there are out in the community if there are diseases like inflammatory bowel disease which is very common in canada. And it's very difficult to control the course of that disease. There are so many diseases. Well we need more research and we need translation of that research into effective drugs and preventative. So it's really mind-bending one. I think how long its taken thousands of us to get where we are and hep c. and yet there's many many of these disease is out there that Just as important so there's plenty to do and health. Research is absolutely vital to healthy community. And we need more research funding. All right before. I let you go. Is there anything else. You'd like to add anything. We haven't covered or any points. You'd like to emphasize the world. Health authority has targeted two thousand thirty to eliminate hepatitis c. Now the definition of elimination is effective. Control and effective treatment and canada has agreed with those goals in two thousand and thirty back. Canada has yet to make an action plan to achieve those goals so there are many things we need to do in canada to get to that point where we've really effectively controlled hepatitis c. We need to screen the baby boomers. Because we know that baby boomers have a much higher prevalence of infection done other age cohorts. We need to make the antiviral drugs that are very potent available to everyone in some provinces in canada. They're only available to people with quite severe liver disease. We need to give it to all carriers of the virus because if we wait some of those people will develop liver cancer and we cannot cure that thirdly when need to make the vaccine and fourthly we need to combine all of those things into an action plan in canada to really continue the good work and to end up with really effectively controlling hep c. Well thank you very much for joining us today. It's been very very interesting. Thank you thank you find more research stories like this at innovation dot ca slash stories and subscribe to the canada foundation for innovation through your favorite podcast app. Also please rate review and share our podcast. 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Vancouver's complicated relationship with Chinese money
"This is a CBC podcast. Hi, I'm Jamie. This is from Perner. Today is Kennedy Stewart's first day on the job as mayor of Vancouver. And he's taking control of a city that's been radically transformed by money, a very specific kind of money Cashman in China and moved into British Columbia in huge volumes. You can literally see its impact from high invitations to Penn has condo's and that money. It's also been blamed for helping make the city so unaffordable, but Chinese money it didn't just recently transform Vancouver. Some would argue that it helped build the city in the first place today Vancouver's complicated relationship with Chinese cash, and how solving that relationship might be the key to the city's future. My name is Natalie. Oh, Biko Pearson. I'm the Vancouver bureau chief for Bloomberg news. And my story is the city that had too much money Natalie. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thanks for having me. I hoping that we can start this relationship between Chinese capital in Vancouver. Just how far back does it go. Where does it start? It's a really long deep and complicated history. And I think that's part of the reason why it's made it so difficult for Vancouver in some ways to address this question. I mean, it we're going back to the late nineteenth century when Chinese labourers were in Canada, helping build the first transnational railway that was the time. When Canada was imposing a head tax on Chinese immigrants, followed by decades of virtually an outright ban on Chinese immigrants on behalf of the province of British Columbia. We sincerely apologize the pervasive discrimination. Against Chinese immigration and Chinese immigrants is Fain on our history. And is there a place in time where the starts to open up where we're after this freeze against Chinese immigrants. So this right like in the nineteen seventies candidate just broadly began liberalizing its immigration policies, and then you had sort of successive waves of Asian immigration after that, you know, it was it was different in character there during the nineteen eighties Britain agreed to return Hong Kong to China. We are in the closing seconds. Now of Hong Kong as a British colony after one hundred fifty six years that was seminal Vancouver. In the sense that there was a huge exodus of both people and wealth coming out of Hong Kong looking for safer places to go in Vancouver was a natural destination right to why would people want to move their money out of Hong Kong at that time. There was a lot of trepidation about what it would mean to be under Chinese rule, again people who had some degree of wealth wanted to take that to a safer jurisdiction, and I would point out here. There are also the somebody like Li Ka-shing in the late eighties. He clinched the largest land deal in Vancouver's history of three hundred twenty million dollar deal to buy up a this sort of vacant industrial land on the water fund, false creek area. Rumors estimated the sale price between two hundred and three hundred million dollars. It's more. But about the buyer. There was never any doubt. He turned that into a bunch of gleaming high-rise glass towers that essentially became the template for high rise development in the city. And to this day is sort of, you know, symbolic of the arrival of Asian capital city and also a target for those who want to criticize growing density or the influence of foreign capital in Vancouver completely transform the city. It didn't downtown. Let's take out Bernie street as an example that was this sort of dowdy thoroughfare, you know, fifteen years ago at a dollar Rama on the corner you go there today. There's a two story product TC one of Rolexes. Biggest showrooms in North America, you know, five star hotels, and it's some of the highest grossing luxury retail per square foot in the world. And do we think that most of this development is being done with Chinese investment? I think the simple answer to that is. Yes, absolutely. You go to any of these businesses, and you talk to them, and you say who is a major target audience for you. And it's obviously these high spenders coming from Asia, I spoke to one commercial real estate developer. Who's now venture capitalist named Ron, Sean. He's an Asian immigrant himself came over in the nineteen sixties, and he says Asian capital has kept the city alive period. Like you can't deny it. Most of these places have bilingual staff on hand because that's how many clients getting from Asia. I feel you painted this. Great picture for me. The historical ties to Vancouver that Chinese immigrants. Have what has been the draw beyond that for real estate being such an attractive thing in the city, and I would go back to Lisa Shing here. I mean, I think you can probably talk about a turning point that happened there. Lita Shing's investment in Vancouver helped place Vancouver on the map for an entire generation of Chinese not just in the mainland, but sort of in the Chinese diaspora across Asia. And now we're talking about the kind of people who have the the wealth the prosperity to think about buying a place in Vancouver as an investment, not necessarily up uprooting in rebuilding your life. There the way previous waves of immigration might have do you have a sense of why or what what potential that Lee Cushing in Vancouver in the first place? It's very easy. It's very comfortable for Asian. Imigrants to come to Vancouver because you have this long history here if you land in Vancouver, you are going to find great Chinese food. You know, you're gonna find community of people who already speak your language, you know, that is maybe set Vancouver apart from say taking your money to a London or New York or something like that. Obviously part of it is that there are limitations on how capital can be used by home in China to right. Is it a combination of those two things? Absolutely. So and I also speak to the sort of most recent wave of of mainland money. That's come. You know there. There are restrictions that were imposed by China on how much any every person could take out per year a fifty thousand dollar per year nominal limit. But Chinese for many years, we're getting around those because they perceived it as a safer place to put at least part of their assets abroad, sort of like an escape hatch or a plan B is what a lot of people talk about. What do we? No about how far reaching the influence of Chinese money is on the real estate market in particular in over. I think most people living in Vancouver would say that for a long time. The signs were all there, you know, bidding wars open houses where obviously clearly a huge portion of the buyers were Chinese or Asian buyers. Paying in cash, you know, clients coming over from the mainland or Hong Kong on twenty four hour buying trips. They'd get off the plane go by a couple of properties get back on the plane and fly back. Right. It's like this mass of anecdotal evidence. Ed, but then you ask. Okay. So then where's the evidence in that becomes a lot trickier? Because if you want hard irrefutable numbers about the influence of Asian money in Vancouver's real estate market, the data simply wasn't there for a long time. And it's still not completely there. The BC government was the first than two thousand sixteen began actually collecting. Citizenship data and one telling figure the first time they actually publicize the first batch of foreign buyer data in the middle of two thousand sixteen it showed that in a five week period. One billion dollars of foreign money. Flowed into Vancouver real estate that was the first and last time the busy government ever gave a breakdown by citizenship of those foreign money flows. I'd go about that one billion dollars the largest proportion of that money came from Chinese buyers. These issues that you brought up in relation to Chinese money that have to do foreign ownership. These are things that people can get really emotional about. What's the impact on how people get along Vancouver, especially given how large the Chinese Canadian population? Is there, you know? It's it's really tricky. And I would actually say because it can be such an emotional issue. That's what made it so difficult to talk about this for a long time. I arrived in Vancouver two years ago. And at the time anyone who tried to talk about Asian capital in the real estate market was being called a racist. And that has the effect of stifling debate. I think that has evolved as the pricing pressures of gotten worse in the tensions of gotten, you know, higher. I think the probably the latest municipal elections says it all it become a problem that you can't deny any more. And that's why it was the biggest issue in the in the latest election that right? He's elections are becoming a referee. Random on real estate and on housing. How do you get audible housing in everyone in this campaign is talking about building more housing? There is so much that we can do immediately to create the housing Meany everybody. Here's working hard. They're making money. They deserve a fair shot in that in the market. And you're not giving it to them. How are you going to sure that you're not going to be taxing the homeowners across Vancouver to death? And if that is the issue, we can ignore the impact of Chinese money. Exactly. So not only has there been this. Historical connection to Vancouver that has facilitated Chinese people coming and moving their money to Vancouver. There's also a system that has made it very easy for it to happen. That's absolutely. That's absolutely true. So there's a new mayor and a provincial government is trying to deal with the not so desirable. Parts of that impact. We can start spending time with each other doing something other than talking about how higher rents are. So thank you Cooper. Let's get to work. What do we know about what they're doing about it? So as you mentioned, a new mayor has just been voted in an I would say that the election was all about housing housing housing. What Kennedy Stewart has said is that housing affordable housing top priority. He's ran on a campaign to build eighty five thousand new homes over the next ten years and tellingly he said that he wanted to protect half of that from foreign speculation is not entirely clear how he plans to do that. But he's also said he wants to triple Vancouver's empty homes tax that is working holes are starting to fill up because because those are speculators are saying, okay. Well, I don't want this tax. So so I think any policy that working we should make it more effective in that tax. Obviously was one that was sort of interpreted as being targeting foreign investors who buy properties park their wealth. There. And then don't let them out lean the lights off the whole time. Ultimately, you know, a lot of the tools lie at the hands of the federal government. And what could the federal government do have had a clay? So one thing that they have actually already done is that they've agreed to share tax info with China. So if begins you know, the the premises that went, Canada and China begins sharing tax information, it will make it much more difficult for those who are seeking to sort of place anonymous wealth in Canada and not pay tax in either jurisdiction. You know, they might I it's it's no longer to be that easy. One question. I have which I'm grappling with is. If these different levels of government succeeded in stopping the flow of this money, what would happen to the city if the cash right up in Cooper isn't known for being economic powerhouse in terms of industry. It is not the center of banking in this country. But but it does seem to be driven by this money. That has also made at the city that it is. So it was what happens if his money goes away. And I think that's precisely Jamie. I mean, that's why we're talking about Vancouver, and maybe not necessarily San Francisco or Sydney or some of these other gateway cities Vancouver. Does not have as deep an economy as some of these other places have also seen similar influxes of cash. I think one of the things that struck me when I moved to Vancouver is in some ways, you kind of feel like real estate is only. Game in town when you first arrived, right? And the other question is so if you wanted to diversify the economy in Vancouver. How would you do that in a city where no one can really afford to live in it? And I think that's the catch that were sort of facing right now, you know, there's this recognition that the city needs to diversified needs to attract more well paying jobs. How do you do that? When it's already become so unaffordable, and I think it could be a double edged sword that it's also turning out to be a bit of a tech hub. Because that's the one industry that has been sort of accused of doing the same thing to other cities, as what Emerson eighty might have done to Hank over, you know, inflate housing San Francisco is a perfect example of our Seattle. So what's next for Vancouver? Where where do you see this going? I think think it's really it's such a tough issue because you talk about. About what the different levels of government can do. But when you come down to it. What is this issue about it's about it's about Asia's rise? And it's about where the Connie's are growing, the fastest in the world in where wealth is being created in that goes beyond probably the ability of any government to to control we talked. We we talked to chip Wilson the founder of Lululemon for the story. And he said because he has a lot of experience going back and forth between Asia and Vancouver. And he says every time he comes back to Vancouver. He thinks himself by land by land by land. Because this flow of funds is not gonna stop you can try and control it you can try and may be temporary little bit. But it's not going to go away Natalie. Thank you so much for taking the time chat with us today. Thanks for having me. As I mentioned at the top of the show Kennedy sewer takeovers mayor Vancouver today, affordable housing with his main campaign issue and the city just announced a plan to build up to six hundred fifty affordable rental units. If your household makes more than eighty grand a year though, you won't qualify for one. The plan is to build these units in false creek. Once again, that's triple land could represent a new stage in the city's transformation. Just like it. Did when Lee Shing bought it all those years ago? Thanks for listening to front burner. I'm Jamie poem C tomorrow. For more CBC podcasts. Goto CBC dot CA slash podcasts.
Depuis 30 ans, Michael Houghton cherche un remde lhpatite C
"In this podcast is brought to you by the canada foundation for innovation. Welcome to the innovation. Now podcast today. We're by dr michael. Houghton canada excellence research chair in virology at the university of alberta dr haden's research focuses on developing a vaccine for hepatitis. C. dr houghton. Thanks for joining us today. Thank you pleasure to be here before we get into your research. I'd like you to tell us a bit about hepatitis c. How common is this disease in. Canada and worldwide worldwide There's around a one hundred million. People infected with hepatitis. C in canada the estimates almost two hundred and fifty thousand people are infected with the virus today and what happens to a person when they become infected with hepatitis. C it starts off being a fairly harmless infection but what happens over time. Most people cannot eradicate the virus most people become persistently infected and over the course of years that can develop into severe liver disease is like lissa roses and liver cancer and in some cases fatality. So it's a slow virus that slowly develops a severe disease if left untreated. So it sounds like something that people might not even be aware that they actually are infected. One of the problems is that many areas in canada and worldwide. I'm not aware that they're carrying the virus and that is dangerous because the longer time goes on the more chance there is of them developing serious liver disease and in the case of liver cancer even the most recent powerful drugs that we have available to treat the infection it will not reverse the liver cancer so this can be fatal disease then oh yes if left untreated around five percent or so of people will develop end stage liver disease which is fatal and often requires a liver transplant and of course they are limited in number and even if it's not fatal is there a lot of pain and suffering associated with the disease when it begins to manifest around twenty percent of people entering affected will develop liver cirrhosis and that often is clinically disabling fatigue pain nausea and become serious liver. Cirrhosis is generally a serious condition and From there many of the liver psoriatic patients develop liver cancer. Which of course is faithful. Unless get a liver transplant. So are there any particular groups of people who are most vulnerable to this infection. So back in the seventies eighties. There was a huge risk of getting hepatitis. C infection following a blood transfusion. It was estimated that almost one in ten canadians that got a transfusion in the seventies and eighties. Get hepatitis c. Fortunately now we have tests to protect the blood supply and now you cannot get habsi following a transfusion today. There are up to ten thousand new infections of hepatitis c. Every year in canada sixty to seventy percent of those are in people who use drugs illicit drug use sharing needles and other equipment for drug use other sources of infection today exposure to body fluids babies can be infected from positive mothers for example males who have sex with other males are at risk for transmitting hepatitis. C. and healthcare workers who frequently exposed to blood are also at risk so in total around. Ten thousand infections occur every year in canada today. And we need to do something about that i. It sounds a lot like aids in the way that it's transmitted yes hepatitis. C is transmitted like hiv through through blood exposure. So it's a blood borne virus and anytime there's blood transfer There's a high risk of hepatitis c. If the person transferring the blahdy. Hepatitis c positive. Of course so. I wanted to go back to you. Were saying how in the nineteen eighties. There was a large risk of transmission through blood transfusion. And i was in the eighty s in one thousand nine hundred nine that you and your colleagues discovered the hepatitis c virus. You actually identified this virus. I am curious. How did you find it. And i know there's a large site acclimation by boil it down and laypersons term. Well let me just say first of all we knew that was the virus causing hepatitis. After transfusion blood borne virus that we knew that in one thousand nine hundred ninety four and it took fifteen years to identify hepatitis. See my lab worked on it for seven years. Fortunately not fifteen years. The reason why it took so long to find is that unlike hepatitis a and hepatitis b. The amount of hepatitis c in patients is much smaller. You know one of the way. It persists one in the body. Is that. it's relatively low tide and it also masks itself from the immune system so it was very very hard to get a a molecular handle on hep c. and that's why it took fifteen years the way we eventually solved. It was as you said working with my colleagues Quilliam chew and george kua. We basically did. What would now be called a rodeo mix experiment and to try to describe it in as basic as possible We use bacteria and we cloned every piece of nucleic acid from an infectious blood sample into bacteria you end up with millions and millions of bacterial clones each expressing piece of nucleic acid in the infectious blood. And then you can persuade the bacteria to express that nucleic acid into a protein. And what you end. Up is a huge rodeo. Mix library where you're expressing millions of different proteins that would originally encoded by the infectious blood. Then we took a gamble. We said well. People were diagnosed with non a non b hepatitis even though antibody had been shown to exist against the virus and even though the virus had been shown. We assume that that would be anybody's to the virus so we took sarah from those patients mixed it with the proteome libraries and argued and hoped and prayed that we would see an antibody antigen recognition so at the time. It was a huge long shot. We had been working on it for seven years so we were getting robert desperate and despite it really being a long shot it actually ended up working and after seven years we got one clone that we were able to show was from hepatitis. C. incredibly took us a long time to convince ourselves that it really was hepatitis. c but eventually we did it. It was an example of not talking yourself out of an experiment that you think is very high risk of working so i learnt from that so i ever since i take a lot of risks in my experimentation inundate took a lot of risk on hep c. as well how did that affect the prevention and treatment of hepatitis c. After you were able to say okay is the virus so once we had identified. The virus an isolated. We were quickly able to develop blood tests to find out if a blood sample from a person. A blood donor or a patient had antibodies to see so we quickly developed the first blood tests for hep c. and then in nineteen ninety. They were approved in canada and that immediately picked up many many cases of infectious blood donors and that prevented post transfusion hepatitis. C. so in the space of a few years we developed a number of different tests. hepatitis. C. between nineteen eighty-nine in one thousand nine hundred five. We developed three different antibody tests and one tests for the viral and self so over the course of set six years we went from a situation where the risk of getting habsi from a transfusion went from almost one in ten to zero so he went from ten percent to zero. So i think globally are blood. Tests are prevented tens of millions of infections around the world. that's fantastic so prevention was one side. What about treatment did the discovery of the virus lead to treatments for hepatitis c. The discovery of the virus eventually led to very effective antiviral drugs to treat patients. It took a long time. So from the point we discovered the virus in nineteen eighty nine hundreds and thousands of is engaged in the work on on understanding. How the virus replicates and works and the field over the course of twenty five years eventually came up with very potent specific drugs targeting the virus that can now cure nearly all patients after one to three months of therapy and these are orally available drugs so now we have the ability to cure. Virtually everyone in the space of a couple of months. Now that their drugs you can treat it. You can screen for it. You can prevent a lot of the cases by now. You're developing a vaccine so if you can treat it and prevent it. Why are you develop a vaccine for it well. One of the problems is that we have very good drugs to cure hepatitis. C. individuals but in canada not all the county is diagnose. We estimate that only one half of the two hundred and fifty thousand carriers of the virus actually are aware of that so first of all you have to get people tested to find out if they have i remix so that's one issue. The second issue is when you know you're a carrier you should try to get the drugs to cure you of course but the drugs are very expensive. They started off costing one hundred thousand canadian dollars per patient. We hear now that the canadian pharmaceutical alliance has got the price down in negotiations. We companies to around thirty thousand dollars per patient. We we guess so. That's a big improvement but nonetheless given the number of carriers in canada almost two hundred and fifty thousand it would cost the country in the region of five to ten billion billion dollars to treat all of its carriers so we hope this will happen soon but the cost is an impediment as well as the diagnosis of the patients. Now we know that today does getting on for ten thousand new infections every year in canada now most of those are occurring in people who inject drugs. If we had a vaccine to give to those people we would drastically reduce the incidents and also if we gave the vaccine to those people most at risk the drug uses. It will be very cost effective. It will be. It will save many hundreds of millions of dollars by vaccinating them rather than wait until they get infected and then treating them with the antiviral drugs right. That's for the canadian population where we have drug users who are most at risk but on the global context in different countries and developing countries. What what a vaccine accomplish their a vaccine would be useful to many groups in canada. Iv drug users would benefit the most but healthcare workers who are frequently exposed to blood need to be protected and as our grandmothers told us. Prevention is better than cure and while we have drugs to kill people. You don't wanna get infected in the first place so. Healthcare workers would benefit from the vaccine in canada males who have sex with other males. We know risk of infection so they would benefit police officers. Who get involved in fights and bites as we say would have protection now. Canada is one of in some ways. It's a lucky country because it's prevalence of hep c. Is quite low. Compared with many other countries of the world in countries like certain countries in south america china mongolia the prevalence of hep c. Is much much greater than in canada and the incidence of infection is much greater so a vaccine is needed. Globally the world health authority estimates that there are one to two million infections every year of around the globe to stop that we need to develop a vaccine in general terms what we've learned from infectious disease research over the last fifty years. Is that if you want to really control and infectious disease. You really need to develop a vaccine. Having drugs to treat. Patients is not enough. A classic example would be zip louis. We have vaccines as effortless and yet today. There are still big outbreaks as if we can treat them. Treat the patients with antibiotics. But they're still big outbreaks of philis within the community because we do not have a vaccine and in the drugs are very cheap with. Fcd drugs are very expensive so we feel strongly that a vaccine is needed. Everyone in our field of pepsi feels that we need a vaccine as a popular misconception. That because we have good potent viral now to treat patients. We don't need a vaccine daddy's wrong we do. I'm curious about vaccines because it seems like vaccines have been around for a long time That we all go and get our shots for our measles mumps rubella and everything so from an outside perspective people could say well. Why is it so hard to develop a vaccine. Don't you already know how to make a vaccine so maybe run me through. What are the challenges. Why is it difficult to develop a vaccine for hepatitis c. It's been very difficult to develop a vaccine against appetite for several reasons. One is you need to know. If antibodies you generate through our vaccine can actually inhibit the infection or as we say neutralize the infectivity of the virus and with apps even though we discovered it in one thousand nine hundred nine we weren't able to grow it in cell culture until two thousand and five is an extremely difficult virus to grow in cell culture. Even today really. There's only one strain that came from japan that we are able to grow in cell culture efficiently and we can play some tricks. We can make america genomes from other strains around the world but using the japanese strain in that way we can get an idea of how vaccine can generate antibodies to neutralize of different strains around the world so being out of the virus in cell culture was wanting to the vaccine. The second impediment is we don't really have a convenient animal model to predict human infection. We used to use non human primates the chimpanzee but then that really became impossible as of a few years ago in the us. There's a ban on using chimpanzees because they are in danger and so the lack of an animal model with a full immune response has really hindered the development of a vaccine. Also and then. I think thirdly it took us a long time to figure out because of those two caveats i already mentioned. It took a long time for people in the field to figure out of the correlates of protection. And what that means is what kind of immune response really correlates with protection in people. Now we feel. We know a lot more about what kind of immune responses protective. And we're able now to recapitulate those protective immune responses by vaccination. I read that some people who have hepatitis c and then their disease gets cleared. They can actually get the disease again. So does that mean. It's more difficult to against if having it once doesn't necessarily protect you against it so in terms of natural immunity If a person gets infected roughly twenty percent of those people will spontaneously resolve the infection without any drug treatment. They have the ability to resolve indicate the virus on themselves and we think that what is protecting them neutralizing antibodies to the virus. And what we call cellular immune responses to eight. See the infected liver cells. Those tend to be very high in people that can spontaneously resolve the infection. Now when those people that resolve the infection once then see the virus again. We have evidence that they are relatively protected. They are unlikely to become persistent carriers when they encountered the virus a second time so the method of vaccination then needs to be one that recapitulates those immune responses in those people. Now another issue with this is if you take a person that is persistently infected with the virus. Their immune response obviously was unable to radically the virus. That's why they became carriers and that's why they needed the antiviral drugs to cure them. What we know. Is that when you cure such a person. They are still susceptible to reinfection. And so we need a vaccine for two reasons to protect people that are high risk that have not yet been exposed to the virus and secondly we need a vaccine to immunize people that have been cured of the virus and then we want to try and reset their immune response so that when they see the virus game they will not become. Chronic persistent carriers. So how close are you. Do you think to developing a vaccine so working on a vaccine to hepatitis. C in the leaker shing institute of technology at the university of alberta. We've been researching it for seven years. And now at the point where we know what vaccine to make we hope and we're in the process of manufacturing it now on the what school. Gnp the these conditions prescribed by health canada. Such the product can be used in clinical trials to to stop testing the vaccine for safety and efficacy. So we're manufacturing the vaccine for human use right now at the university of alberta we hope to stop clinical trials may be the end of next year or early two thousand and nineteen. So it's some it's a wonderful environment in the leaker shing institute at the university of alberta because not only can we do research we actually then translate the research into humans by actually manufacturing vaccine for clinical trials. What sort of equipment or infrastructure do you have at the university. Of alberta the li ka-shing institute that comes from the that is helping you with this research at the university of alberta i work within the leaker shing institute of technology also the department of medical microbiology immunology and over the years specifically in two thousand and two and then in two thousand six. We received thirty five million canadian dollars for two. Cf grants and what they gave us is really state of the equipment to do virology immunology and vaccine i joined the university of alberta in two thousand and ten and i really benefited from having state of the art equipment to use in my research without that we would not have been able to research to have see vaccine and produced it so the cfi has been incredibly important. It has been key to our work on the hep c. Vaccine now you've dedicated your life to discovering the elusive hepatitis. C virus to trying to screen for it and now to try to immunize against it. You're very close. What will you do after you've successfully develop a vaccine isn't your life's work finished at that point or what do you do next. We feel that we need a vaccine to go alongside the diagnostics and the antiviral drugs to really effectively control. Hepatitis c. In canada and around the world so that is a major goal of our field. It takes many many people. I mean we've had hundreds if not thousands of people working globally on hep c. And it's just amazing. How much effort and how much training and education it takes to come back a single virus. Unfortunately there are lots of other diseases that also very severe and very important. It's really amazing. And just how many disease. There are out in the community. There are diseases like inflammatory bowel disease. Which is very common in canada. And it's very difficult to control the course of that disease. There are so many diseases. Well we need more research and we need translation of that research into effective drugs and preventative. So it's really mind-bending one. I think how long its taken thousands of us to get where we are and have see and there's many many of these is out there that Just as important so there's plenty to do and health. Research is absolutely vital to healthy community. And we need more research funding. All right before. I let you go. Is there anything else. You'd like to add anything. We haven't covered or any points. You'd like to emphasize the world. Health authority has targeted two thousand thirty to eliminate hepatitis c. Now the definition of elimination is effective. Control and effective treatment and canada has agreed with those goals in two thousand and thirty back. Canada has yet to make an action plan to achieve those goals so there are many things we need to do in canada to get to that point where we've really effectively controlled hepatitis c. We need to screen the baby boomers. Because we know that baby boomers have a much higher prevalence of infection done other age cohorts. We need to make the antiviral drugs that are very potent available to everyone in some provinces in canada. They're only available to people with quite severe liver disease. We need to give it to all carriers of the virus because if we wait some of those people will develop liver cancer and we cannot cure that thirdly when he to make the vaccine and fourthly we need to combine all of those things into an action plan in canada to really continue the good work and to end up with really effectively controlling hep c. Well thank you very much for joining us today. It's been very very interesting. Thank you thank you find more research stories like this at innovation dot ca slash stories and subscribe to the canada foundation for innovation through your favorite podcast app. Also please rate review and share our podcast. It really helps others to find it.
Thursday 20 June
"You're listening to the globalist first broadcast on the twentieth of June two thousand and nineteen on monocle twenty four the globalist in association with UBS. Hello. This is the globalist coming to you live from Dory house in London. I'm Georgina Godwin coming out United Nations report on the murder of Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi is released, but we'll knowing who was responsible changed anything. It's all as another contender for British Prime minister fools is the opposition labor party. Finally, taking a position on Brexit. Then today we will send out international arrest warrants for the first Specht that we will prosecute. They will also be placed on national and international wanted lists for people three Russians under Ukrainian have been charged with killing two hundred ninety eight passengers and crew aboard. Malaysia Airlines flight seventeen which was shot down over Ukraine. But will they ever face trial as measles, outbreaks continue to look at what's driving the anti vaccine movement, plus, the fires of the general industry trend to stage co Ed catwalks during womenswear weeks? L. VM h has put its money behind man's only Parashos from its brands, including veto, looting, lo every and selling will examine the gender divide in fashion. See why Japanese television show might change the working culture of the nation and skip through some business news in front pages to that's all ahead right here on the globalist life from London. A new United Nations report recommends that the Saudi Arabian crown prince Mohammad bin Salman, or NBS should be investigated for the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, Washington Post writer, shoddy was a fist critic of the prince and his home country of Saudi Arabia. He was murdered in the Saudi Arabian consulate and Istanbul in October two thousand eighteen Dr Brian classes, a political scientist at UCLA himself, a weekly columnist for the Washington Post. He's also the host of the new podcast. Power corrupts. Brian, thanks so much for coming in who carried out this report. This is the U N may have a special reporter who, basically looks at extrajudicial killings and assassinations. And she did a thorough five month long investigation. And concluded that there was at least credible evidence that this was directly linked to Muhab been some on the Saudi prince, and that, in fact, it is highly likely that he was involved. So this is no secret. I mean, we knew this already we have had confirmation, and there's some grisly details that have come. Out in the report is well, what is who evidence? I mean, was there anything new I mean, she, she spoke about how they had this timeline, these recordings of basically people on the quote unquote hit squad discussing how easier difficult, it would be to dismember the body and one of the doctors is basically reassuring. What are the other members that it'd be quite easy, and they would just bring in the right plastic bags and everything? And then twenty four minutes after kashogi entered the consulate. There's audio they have from the Turkish government of Assab being used on him, and it sounds will say, like Pat some torture was indulged. Yeah. They I mean this was supposed to cause some serious suffering before he was dismembered. They still haven't recovered the body or any of the parts of the body. So it's a very, very, dark story and it's, it's just astonishing how you can have a state based assassination of a prominent journalist, who is working for in America. Paper ordered by an American ally and have no serious, diplomatic disruption to that relationship. What does she recommend happen? So she says, basically that the UN should launch him more formal in Korea much broader one and that the United States should do the same led by the F B I in the jurisdiction for that would be acceptable because kashogi lived in Virginia. Right. So he's not just somebody who writes, for the Washington Post and lives in Saudi Arabia. She lived in Virginia. He has relatives who are American citizens. So the American government has to play much, much larger role. According to the report, of course, Donald Trump has no appetite for this and famously praised Saudi Arabia after the killing for buying a lot of US weapons. In fact, the first time that he said anything he took about row. He tweeted tweeted, about rogue elements being responsible for it. Yeah. I mean it's just it's, it's beyond belief, right? I mean rogue elements within the consulate of Saudi Arabia. I mean, this is obviously a state sanctioned murder. It's not. Something that you can do without getting direct approval from the highest levels of government. I mean, this is the same reason why people in further flood Amir Putin knows about certain operations because you're in a system in which if you were to basically do this without permission, and, you know, it's going to generate international headlines, you yourself might be killed. So, you know, these people would have absolutely gotten sign off from the highest levels. And of course, the UN has to be very careful with how they say that. But affectively that's the subtext of the report is that NBS was almost certainly aware of this, and that, you know, the people involved in this reclose aides to him, they were not some rogue elements. They were people who would have taken direct orders from the top. I mean, she stops short of actually blaming MVS, but we know that the CIA also believes it. I mean they give us intelligence agency said it was likely that he ordered the murder himself and yet the disbelieved it would seem by their in president. Yeah. I mean, this is this is one of the long stories of the Trump presidency is, you know, you have intelligence giving clear indications. Of what they think happened and Trump basically citing with a foreign autocrat instead and this, you know, the, the way that Trump approach that, where he tried to provide political cover to protect the people who orchestrated in facination of high-profile journalists working for one of the most high profile American newspapers. I, I mean you just can't you can't make it up. But it's so it's just the thing that I think, is the most disturbing about this is that, you know, we will talk about this, there will be some pressure within the Democratic Party for an inquiry. But the most likely outcome of this is that there will be no formal diplomatic reprimand beyond few sanctions targeted at at people who are mid level, players in the Saudi regime, and beyond that will goes businesses usual. The United States will continue selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, which are being used to commit were crimes in Yemen. There will be no formal disruption of the relationship with M B S, Jared Kushner, who's a high level ranking official in the White House and happens to be Trump's son-in-law will continue to be friends with NBS. I mean all of this is going to continue. And it's just one of these things that you have to take a step back and say, what does a quote unquote ally, have to do to downgrade that relationship, if not murdering a journalist who works for the Washington Post in cold blood. And then we, we know that steps are some people are trying to take steps the White House plans to sell eight billion dollars worth of military equipment to Saudi Arabia, but Senator Bob Menendez has begun. The full mill person of blocking that. Yeah. But they the Senate tried two blocks arm sales to Saudi Arabia that could be used to commit warcrimes in Yemen. They voted for it. There was bipartisan support for it. And the Trump administration has so far used effectively a national emergency declaration to get around that, and to get the get the weapons to Saudi Arabia anyway. So, you know, this is something where obviously, you know. I think it's important to say that Trump is not the only US president that has had an unsavory relationship with Saudi Arabia, every US president since World War Two has. But this is something where, you know, the sort of brazenness with which there is no second side to it right in the past. It used to be that you would have this cozy relationship, you'd make the argument that we need this for diplomatic reasons, or geopolitical reasons, but you'd also push Saudi Arabia and human rights also give them slaps on the wrist and occasional sort of public sanctions for their barbaric treatment of prisoners. Whatever it is in this in this administration's. It's just unapologetic. It saying this is our ally. We're going to continue giving the weapons even if they're using them in war crimes, and you know what the president the United States is going to national TV and say it doesn't matter that he killed somebody in cold blood. It doesn't matter that he orchestrated assassination because they buy weapons. And we like that the, the gut in newspapers reported that they've been a number of claims that thirty Arabia's been using sophisticated surveillance spyware. To the phones of journalists as Casaccia walls journalist. And the paper itself has been warned that its journalists have been targeted by hacking unit inside Saudi Arabia. I mean it looks Khashoggi, although the anyone murdered is certainly not the only person being watched very closely. Yeah, MRs something that's very, very worrying. And I think it's something where it's becoming the new normal that there are ways that's four hundred genes can try to disrupt the lives of foreign journalists who try to expose them. And of course, that becomes more likely when if you can kill somebody with, with no consequences, the stuff below killing somebody becomes much more likely you'll get more brazen. And this is the point that I've been raising for the last three years of the Trump, the Trump campaign into the Trump presidency is that if you praise unequivocally praised for an autocrat's for doing things that autocrats do they will become bolder. They will do more of those things they will kill more people. They will put more people in jail. They will use this as a pretext to say, you know what we can get away with it and. Every four autocrat would really like to silence those voices that are standing up to them, whether it be by jailing journalists killing them or simply cracking down on on, on what's left of a free press in their society. So, you know, that doesn't make headlines around the world, but in every country in which there is a dictatorship or a despot, they are going to get worse, as a result of this impunity that they are seeing with Jamal Shoji's killing. And, and the fact is that Jen being demonized by the west. Yeah. I mean, this is the other thing, right? It's being fueled directly from the White House. I mean it's become so routine that it's not even covered anymore. When Trump denounces the press using Stalinist rhetoric calling them the enemy of the people, which I think it's always worth pointing out that, that was a Soviet term that was basically taken out of use in nineteen fifty-six by Nikita Khrushchev, because it was too extreme for the Soviet Union. They had an official meeting about it. I mean, the other people who have used that term are basically mouse doll, and Hitler, Robert Mugabe's Zimbabwe, and Myanmar's military junta. So Trump is not exactly. In good company, and demonizing, the presence such stark rhetoric. And I think it's important that we continue to call it out, because it is facilitating the movement of dictators towards even more brutality towards journalists Brian. Thank you very much indeed. That is Dr Brian class, his what else but keeping an eye on today. Chinese president. She's in ping arrived in Pyongyang on a two-day state visit and set to hold talks with North Korean leader. Kim Jong UN. She is the first Chinese leader to visit North Korea in fourteen years. China is hugely important to North Korea is its main trading partner New Zealand has launched a multi-million dollar gun buyback scheme in the wake of the deadly Christ's church. Mosque shootings of two hundred million New Zealand dollars have been set aside to compensate owners of the bond, semiautomatic firearms up to ninety five percent of the original cost New Zealand's parliament passed the gun reform rule by those one hundred nineteen to one in April and Canada has overtaken the United States is the world's leading host of formerly resettled, refugees. The UN report found that last year Canada accepted over twenty eight thousand refugees, while the US came second with twenty three thousand some ninety two thousand refugees were. Settled globally in two thousand eighteen few them. Seven percent of those awaiting resettlement will wide this is the globalist. Stay tuned. Last night. Laurie Stewart was eliminated in the UK's conservative parties leadership process. The eventual winner will replace the outgoing Prime Minister Theresa may, but will also be the person who finalizes the UK's chaotic attempt to exit the European Union things on looking much more orderly across the political divide, either opposition leader Jeremy Kuban tries to clarify his view on Brexit yesterday saying it's right to demand. Any deal is put to a public vote will joining us to explain more about Copeland's position on the wider political crisis in the UK is launch price, whose Tony buzzed erector communications when he was prime minister lawns. Thanks coming on. There was a shutter cabinet meeting yesterday. What we gather came out of it. Well, there was a very long at a cabinet meeting at which once again, Jeremy Corbyn was pulled this way. And by those who believe strongly that labor should change its position to a much more clear remain supporting position. And those who think that would damage the labor party in all those constituencies in the null fund and the Midlands of England the voted to leave in union. So the individuals was very long. Typically convoluted statement from Jeremy Corbyn spokesman, which didn't really am move. The potus position very far perhaps a sort of milliliter slightly towards a remained positional, Senate world's support in a second referendum. But for those looking for clear lead from Jeremy Cobham from the labor party, they were left disappointed once again, so we know that moving twenty-five labor piece of written to cope into earn him not to go what they're calling full remain. Yes. And these are the people who represent those seats that I was describing most of them in the north and the Midland's the voted heavily believe, but at the same time, other people are advising Corbin saying publicly that they don't necessarily during the right conclusion from the results that we've seen in the general election. Or in, in opinion, polls or indeed, the painter bre by electric because just because those seats voted heavily for leave. It doesn't mean that an overwhelming majority of voters, did or indie that labor were to stick with its current position. Which is I'm not softer Brexit at on the one. They offered by the conservative party, so far, and certainly about softer Brexit, on the one is likely to be offered by Boris Johnson to become the new conservative leader and prime minister, the latest position would win back those voters. Anyway, they're probably still go with a much more hard, line, Brexit position. So I think the balance of the pig. Certainly within the shadow cabinet. The people who are meeting yesterday. I'm within the labour party more widely is that Labor's best interests lie in having much more strongly pro remain position. The the, I think the real problem is that even if Jeremy Corbyn does Shifter's position a little bit mole. They'll be sense of conviction behind it. There's no good, just agreeing, new position out of a compromise because of pressure within labor internal politics. If you don't go out there and sell something to the public, you've got to do with real conviction. It's absolutely clear. The Jeremy Corbyn doesn't have that real conviction. He didn't have that real conviction during the original referendum on whether we should stay or leave the European Union. If he had, we might be in the position that we're in the moment. What about the dynamic of the leadership of the party between him and talk? The Tom Watson, who is deputy who really wants the party to, to, to remain. Well it started. Interesting. What's going on with the top? Just Tom Watson, who has been more expensive. The most of them in, in a pro vein position. Certainly in upping, the ante in recent days and weeks. But it's people who traditionally much closer to Gerry Cole, but not the shadow chancellor, John Donnell, in the shadow foreign secretary Emily sewn, and obviously the Brexit spokesman secures, Tom of all of them now, being much, much more outspoken in favor of a remained position. And least Jeremy Corbyn much more. I selected now he's got a Carter of, of advisers around him who are causing considerable, frustration amongst, the, the elected politicians who seem to be trying to box Jerry Coleman into their I'm big us position that he's held the past two or three years. And for the public at home looking at it wondering who to support, and so on wondering, whether they're having had some of them lent their support to other parties, the Liberal Democrats in the European election campaign. Remember the public looking at the labor party, they must still be scratching their heads thinking, either particpants and at some point surely they've got to choose. Well, the have to choose when it comes to the votes in the house of Commons, obviously, or ever were to be another referendum. And none of this makes the referendum any closer actually because they're on. So there's no evidence, yet fishing votes in the house of Commons for to be another referendum. But if that will want ornate if as general election when labour has put his position at clearly to, to the to the public, and then what is looking like is a title be put off down till Labor's conference in at the end of September that will probably be shift because of the pressure is coming from the grassroots of. The labor party to a more remain position. But no, the full blooded one. And so come. The really big shakedown, which would be general election or referendum, but will still be a pretty big us position. And, and their only hope really is that they would say to people because by then were expecting bar is still to be prime minister, very dense people. Look, you might find out positional Brexit frustrated in some respects, but when not Boris Johnson when not full blooded red meat Brexit, under any circumstances, conservative party that we now confront with making bars, don't close the Tory party leadership contest rumbles on isn't quite prime minister yet yesterday Rory Stewart failed to reach the threshold of thirty three votes. What's out about this is that he actually lost votes, which suggests that rumors of tactical voting and vote lending might have been correct? Can you explain what that is? And why it might happen. Yes. I'm and I find this quite credible. He didn't do too well in the BBC television. Debates. They may have lost some support there. But it was very old that in the previous ballot vote shot up and then suddenly in the one yesterday it dropped again by ten votes. So the suggestion is that supporters of Boris Johnson in particular when lending their votes to Aurora Stewart to know how the other hardline Brexit, Dominic Robb, and, and having succeeded in doing that ju- support from Rory Stewart, a guy in now they say that the membership of the conservative parliamentary out to the MP's western stuff, the most sophisticated electric in the world, and they certainly have track record the Klay, these sorts of games in the past so to be it seems touch it credible that Boris Johnson got such a large block of MP supported him. And some of them at least are willing to do is bidding in shifting where they cost it, but in these early rounds it ordered to ensure the Boris Johnson faces the person wants to face. In the final run-off. I mean that's probably the foreign secretary Jeremy hunt. And of course he ever wins will become a unelected. Prime minister how soon might they hold an election and would later be ready. Well, we've been here before in the sense that political parties have changed leader, and therefore, the prime minister wen in governments are golden Brown from Tony Blair, to resume took over from David Cameron. It's happened in the past, and although the opposition party in under those always calls for general election. The governing party almost never does it not. Absolutely. I've been almost never does it. And the problem will be that neither of the two main parties wanted, general election. Let's look at what happened in the European elections when they both suffered massively to the Brexit party into the Liberal Democrats in particular. So unless let's say Boris wins which probably will less mass. Bounce in popularity unless he pulls the rabbit out of the hat in some way that no one can quite full say over Brexit and is right behind pimples to such an extent that he's prepared to take the same risks. That's reason many took loss of quota general election, under those circumstances. The most likely thing is that this parliament Lipscomb are trying to find its way through on, on, on Brexit simply because both the conservatives and the labour party despite all the nonsense of as a publicly really fair, general election. Lance, thank you very much indeed. That's Lance price next, an international investigation team is named full suspects. For shooting down the Malaysia Airlines flight, m h seventeen stay tuned. Yes. As one nine hundred investment analysts from over one hundred different countries over nine hundred of the shop is mines, and freshest, thinkers in the world of finance today. No one, no one knows who. Find out how we can help you contact us at UBS dot com. Sometimes it is the youngest person in the room, that's just come in as the intern that comes up with the idea in new sit there anything clever. How did you think of that? Don't think just because you're the see in the general manager you come up with the ideas allow your team to help build that strategy and fulfill dreams, for sharp business insight, and access to the world's most inspiring company, founders monocle twenty four brings you the entrepreneurs. How many times have you had a great idea for Brian the economy that would work, and then you sit out on a monthly he that would really work actually. And then you ask yourself that very simple question. Do I wanna spend every day? Owning a brand new innovative picnic blanket prior. Join me Daniel beach for the entrepreneurs intimate thirty minute conversations with visionaries behind the brands and companies making an impact in our world. There are so many moments when you just it almost seems logical to Kim up. But if you just endure the pain a little bit more than you finally get your. Yes, the entrepreneur. News on monocle twenty four. Five years after Malaysia Airlines flight seventeen flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur was shot down over Ukraine, killing all two hundred ninety eight people on board four men, three Russians and one Ukrainian to be charged with murder the joint investigation team j IT is issuing national and international arrest warrants for the suspects. Well, hit with more is an AKU, but who is Robert Bush, fellow at Chatham house, on a who are the four accused four three Russians accused are known to have been linked earliest efficiently have been linked formerly to the Russian military the Russian military intelligence, the crane in was fighting with vessel called don't ex- People's Republic. One of the one of the suspects eager gear can was one of the leaders of the Russian support it action in eastern, Ukraine, as well as he was. Active in Crimea and all three Russians that were named yesterday are known to have been taken part in different conflicts earlier such as in Chechnya in the Balkans in Transnistria, etc. So that's, that's that is the people were talking about what does the. Think happened. So basically, the people who were listed yesterday are suspected of organizing and overseeing, and conducting the transportation of the system and basically, the arrangement of the operation. What the group still as far as I understand what the group still has to identify is who exactly push the buttons, and both them and previously, some other investigators such as billing cat as well as the cranium side have been saying that the fifty third brigade of the Russian air defence forces were involved. In had this had this missile system, and were could have been involved in the operation of the system, because it's fisted system and it needs people who know what they're doing. You can just be a driver. And sit there and should that missile another thing that in the investigation, I suspect has to identify stew is the chain of command. So who from the higher up levels authorized or instructed or arranged this operation? No. The joint investigation team is made up of representatives from five countries, Australia Belgium, Malaysia, the Netherlands, and Ukraine, Russia's not part of that. And that's cool some control. Cathy, hasn't it? I suppose I mean, the cranium side has provided the some of the some of the proof so including the telephone the league telephone conversations between the people involved in terms of Russia. According to the Dutch investigation group or internationally investigation group Russia has not been very cooperative. So it has refused to answer, some very basic questions, such as about the whereabouts of the boop system at the around the time when the when the when the tragedy happened or where were the people listed yesterday, whether they were serving in the Russian military's still or on Russian civil service or public service or not. Yes. So Russia has refused to answer this question as well as in the past two after the tragedy of Russia offered. All. Kinds of different scenarios that didn't sound realistic just to denied. It's possible blame. So and finally, a Russia and Ukraine, Yeon constitutions prohibit extraditing nationals, so how will Justice prevail as far as I as far as its yesterday? I think the prosecutor prosecutors said that they will try to, to get hold of this Ukrainian national, who was fighting with DNR and get him to, to, to stand trial. However, it sounds highly implausible because Ukraine does not control that part of the occupied part of the territory in the east. We basically don't know that, that person is alive, and where he is, as far as I understand about the three Russians so far. Russia has shown no signs of being willing to, to present to send. It's. Dozens to stand trial for that case. Very much indeed. That's unequated from Chazan house. We all know that Japan has an extremely intense, work ethic so much so that the government has recently taken measures to reduce long hours and change cultural norms around work, but television may be shifting out to cheats foster than legislation, a new TV show called, I will not work overtime. Period is taking the country by storm and driving the narrative around the world life balance joining us from Tokyo bureau chief funerals. What's the premise of this show? Well, it's basically about a thirty something woman who works in a web design company, and she in the post has been bit of workaholic had a very difficult time. So in this job, she saying, I'm not going to work overtime. I'm going to leave said that I can be in my favorite ball, where lost orders are at six fifteen. Happy hour, ends at six fifteen so she has an excuse to get out which is considered a pretty radical proposition. In Japan and hardly a kind of big dramatic jive the, the government and employers are trying to make work is slow down a little, and we know that in two thousand seventeen I think it was over cooter the country's fulltime employees, worked an average of more than forty nine hours a week now that six out of seven days. What do you think drives the worker of those people and indeed, the heroine of the television show? Well, I mean, you know, it just pervades the culture here, the people are expected to work hard, and they expect to work hard. You know, sometimes people just stay in the office, then actually being that productive. But, you know, there's always been this tradition that junior colleagues can't leave until the senior person leaves, and there's still quite a lot of that going on. And, and, and, you know, so the idea behind this show is I mean, it's interesting that she's a woman as well. But the idea behind the show is to look that overtime issue, which has become a huge issue in Japan. And you're right. Legislation's been passed to, to try and cap over time with many exemptions. But this show also looks at many other issues around the workplace we, we've discussed and things like parental leave sexual harassment. Equal power harassment here, which is west senior colleagues slightly over Burien bullying for younger colleagues, this show tackles the mall. It does it in a very Japan drama slightly light hearted way. So I wouldn't say it's a hard hitting drama. It's a bit of comedy. It's. Bit light. And interestingly, as an, the show is sort of coming to an end at the moment, and there's a love story, as well. So, you know, the work issue is up sedately central, but there are many other threads to the story. Do you think that generally does disparity between how millennials and older employees think about work? Oh, definitely. I mean you can see the I think, you know, the sort of culture of jobs for life is really changing here and there's a character in the show, who's very typical of a certain kind of young worker. You know, people join companies that still happens. They leave university and in the following eight they join a company, and then what's happening is that after a year, the thinking, oh, maybe this isn't right, for me, and they leave now in the old days, they said, maybe this isn't right, for me, but I'm sticking with it and I'm not going to leave and thirty years later, they were still. So that's a big difference. You know, the idea of doing freelance work part time work. This is a sort of shift that's happening. And of course it relates to two women. This constant of need to get more women into the workplace to, to make up for the shortage of workers. That is a very obvious place to look, help women get back into the workplace. And, and there's a character in this show who's returning from maternity leave and struggling, so it puts a bit of a spotlight on that issue as well. Do you think the show can change attitudes? I didn't if it changes to choose. But I think what's interesting. Is it sort of opens the discussion, and there has been quite a reaction their various looking around on the internet reactions on Twitter articles saying, you know? Oh, it's interesting. This show is popular because it sounds quite dry on paper. But actually, the main actress is the, the popular, and they've made these quite serious issues seem seem quite fun. And you know it's based on a very successful novel as well. So, and that, right. Is involved in this, and I think these issues that people can relate to an having the central characters of woman has, I think particularly made an interesting story fin that's quite enough work for me for today. I think. Some intake. Thanks very much. Indeed. Multiples, taking office, we jet off to meet the pioneers, fixes and makers who want to get the world, moving in Monaco, ability special. Getting into gear with the fast section. We head to Rome, where we meet the oven heroes fixing beleaguered infrastructure of the Italian capital. Then we're on the move for the top players in the business of mobility, from the high flying CEO of two independent bike makers of Toronto, nurturing, the city's appetite for homegrown and sustainable transport solutions. Monaco's coach section takes a quiet time into the world. Pride is where we meet to former journalist who swept their dictaphone for careers after -tective for higher weary from our world tour. We have you covered, we kick back at the plush, new August hotel in Antwerp, an old, Augustinian convent converted into an urban oasis for the well hill. Traveler Monaco's June issue is on newsstands now. Get your copy today also describe at Monaco dot com. It's thirty four minutes past the top of the Allio listening to monocle twenty four with me Georgina Godwin. This is the globalist again to continue now with today's newspapers. Joining me in the studio is less Pessolano, who's a professor at King's College London an expert on Asian defense. Good morning to you here. Good monitor. So let's start in Asia and Hong Kong because this is such a big story. -solutely. In fact, the big read on the financial times, needs abound to Hong Kong and the consequences of the tests, have lost a few days and weeks. In particular. I think what is very interesting in the article as the focus on how the situation in Hong Kong represents real dilemma, face-drooping in particular, because what has happened stands in clear defiance of everything under brides, his leadership style, and the sort of Di Di policy imprint he has given to China since two Daza, twelve and let's just sort of Rica, very briefly. We're in a situation whereby is very controversial 'extradition law was about to be passed created this massive protests, which culminated in more than two million people industries on the weekend, which in turn, let they gene, to take sort of pressure on carry on to the Stolpen these law, put in sight lines for the time being living situation, a bit of a conundrum rights. Because from this point on woods, where do you go people industry still demanding that carry-on is dismissed, she's fides and someone else who plays? And of course, what do you do that? Annoy doesn't really matter. Because the heart of the thing is the question of if you become too lenient in the sense that you take on would protest disaster saying than you showing a weekend, weak spot in the, in the way you are politically, which internet might lead, others are the parts of China and Danzig key about that dairies away to push back to the politics, requests and the politics of lawns of action. And that's definitely not very good thing, if you're CGP in general, but precisely specifically at this point in time was the Chinese economy. The end the pressure because of the trade war, and because number of. If you won't they testing moments that booth into nationally in conomic matters. And in diplomatic and, and brutally speaking foreign policy matters CG in China, these facing, it's an absolutely interesting point in time. Where do you go from here? I wouldn't want to be sitting in Japan's chair right now or engaging didn't carry lands. I love the, the financial times headlined, this sacrificial lamb. I love it. Yes, I think it's obsolete. Brilliant way to put it. And even if you if you even if you take it out of the equations. This is green Senate good single because it will be the third person enroll hasn't served the term in a way, kind of like only temporarily if you won't puts the problem away a doesn't address the fundamental issue, I think is also particular importance. And this is what sort of cancer, this protests under a very different lights. If you want compared to two thousand fourteen umbrella. Movement these much more tech savvy organized structured, if you want protesters, this is not good to go away, unless you doubled down. And if you do, so, we'll kind of signal, you sending in context were by already Chinese reputation in terms of dealing with his own people is on the line. Given would see now happening in central Asia with MS limit ethnic minorities. It's going to be a very, very interesting story to watch here in Britain. This is not so much an interesting story just a very, very long one. The never ending drama Brexit and the Tory leadership. Now we were talking earlier in the program about how Rory Stewart is exited the race known, but slightly odd because he suddenly dropped by ten votes, which is a does suggest that all these rumors of vote lending up probably true. Probably. So, so the story of courses is in newspapers, and generally speaking, I wouldn't want to look at the guardian focus, the story under conservatives because obviously, there will be a little bit of conspiracy theories going on as you would expect them to do, but at the same time it is nonetheless, quite interesting, how they trying to explore, but signs of the equation, the fact that the beta the other night, and television, Rory stewed bison admission some underperformed, because he wanted to look very dispassionate, but as Tom removed from the from the rubble, you know, from, from, from, from taking on the adversities wounded, look, much more statesman, but then he takes his eyes of, and he's sitting in a very different ways. He's not sort of projecting the right image, if you want, if that's what you want to do. And so people really had they diverse into petitions, and I think what happened could be one or two things. Really, there's this annulment of conspiracy as inside of. Boris johnson's. And he's is right hand man, in Gavin Williamson's that have taking advantage of that, and sort of just sort of a naked people away from him. And all simply people who were expecting to see him to take on Boris Johnson in a way that would not be like Michael Gulf, which is somewhat expected anyway, and kind of failed see that materializing and there for our disappointment tho- like, yeah, whatever. And so they went elsewhere. But again, it's interesting to see who none of this has to do with running the country. None of this has to do with providing any solution and the fundamental element of the story that sort of revolves around this leadership called is that none of them provided any significant Unser to any of the questions, they were asked and nineties, behalves, most frightening foldable, and even sort of both Johnson's eminently Longley. Ons to whether he's going to be firm on exiting the EU on the thirty first of all toba left a tremendous amount of, of speculation as to what exactly is going to happen with the next prime minister, some say the real winner of that debate was very Stewart's tie. Yes that left the stage as early as you could. Let's look at the Neil times, now, this is all about light is, but it is it is an absolutely fascinating, too. I mean, put it this way, these days headlines of newspapers tend to be quite depressing. Because when when, when Trump and trade war, or he's announcement for running a second time for president each one of the highlights, there's really little room left to run away to accept here. This is a story that actually culturally and intellectually is, is quite invigorating, if you want it is about we'll know about this terrible images of the two giant buddhis- enough Galveston. In, in, in BA million that would like more than five hundred. These all they were absolutely standing structures like, you know, a number of years to be completed, which in sight, that now the whole side, whole volley, because it's so full of afterwards and everything as is, is a heritage site from UNESCO. And of course, this is a place where there's very little light Electricite, or anything else. And also the level of the strike shin brought about by the Talibans at the time was one, such. That's ocular gist of beans nobody'll keen on pushing the agenda of rebuilding and restoring the place because it would be too complex. But what happens is that stories there isn't light of hope and I think he's not just a metaphor. But he's also a physical thing because the spending limitations of electrical power soup lie. A couple of rich or Chinese businessmen donated project chew project, that stats that creates this three d. Shape of one of the two bodies. Now, this only happens once in a while, because, of course it's power pas apply. Angry top of Hungary, top of, of, of, of, of JT, but this nonetheless, quite a spectacular sight. I mean, the Neo Tom's as beautiful picture that was taken from Las time this, this, this project who was on and must be absolutely fascinated that, contrast if you want, disliked, projection contras with the reality thing, which is lots of scuffled that looks really Hugli. And I think that, that is a metaphor if you want this particular sides of the situation Afghantistan, and how terrible the conflict has been at the people in the cultural heritage. And how little sometimes withstanding technology nothwithstanding, all the advancements that we have in more than societies. We can actually achieve in a situation, whereby this is about emotion. This is about hearts about soldiers about culture history and heritage. And yet, we are powerless nonetheless. A little light of hope. They're suddenly, thank you very much indeed. Let's, let's pets on from King's College London still to come on the program. We'll be looking at the anti-vice movement. This is the globalist. UBS global financial services firm with over one hundred fifty years of heritage built on the unique dedication of people, we bring fresh thinking and perspective to our work, and we know that it takes marriage intelligence and haunt to create lasting value for Clinton's. It's about having the right ideas, of course, but it was time about having one of the most accomplished systems and unrivaled network of global experts. That's why at ABS we pride ourselves on thinking smarter to make a real difference. Junin weekly to the bulletin with UBS all the latest insights, and opinions from UBS and experts from around the world. A huge international study into attitudes surrounding buxom nations has shown that in some areas of the world mistrust. Vaccines is high leading to retrogressive steps and containing preventable infectious diseases, the survey, which is the biggest global analysis on the subject with carried out by the Wellcome Trust? Well on the line to tell us why established medical science has been viewed by some with dangerous levels of unfounded. Skepticism is Chris Smith from naked Fundus that Cambridge University, Chris, what sort of numbers that we looking at here what, what sort of numbers are refusing to nations. We don't know precisely. But what we do know is how many people now catching infections or succumbing to infections, because of a reduction in vaccination rate. So if we take a look at say America in the first about three or four months of this year loan. There were three times as many cases of measles as they were in the whole of last year. And that puts this year for the u. US the highest levels of measles declared cases in more than twenty years. And there's a similar picture in the UK. The data we have for the UK from last year show that in the ten months to Tober of twenty eighteen they were three times as many cases in, in the first part of this year compared to the entire period, then so in other words, the rights of infection, climbing fast and the reason they climbing because more people are susceptible and the reason more people are susceptible is because more people choosing not to have nations. They'll have their children vaccinated. Now, some people say, oh measles is just a childhood enlists. It's fine. But this is important. We'll measles is, is not a childhood illnesses. Fine is actually very severe my brother succumbed to measles and not because he wasn't vaccinated but because he caught it when he was really small before the age of which you can be vaccinated. I luckily had been and I therefore didn't catch it, but he was extremely on well for period of time. And it is a life three. Threatening illness and the thing is that if people go around not getting vaccinated, then there's an increased circulation of infection in the population and this has a knock-on effect for people who are young and haven't been vaccinated yet light, my brother, but equally people who can't have vaccines, because their immune system doesn't work properly. All the have some of the health problem that means they're relying on this phenomenon that we call the herd immunity in order to defend them. And heard immunity is where if you push the rates of axons beyond about ninety percent in the population with so few people who are susceptible to the infection, very fast, moving viruses, like measles, which have to have a very rapid cycle of infection, one person to the next the next just Khansa stain a transmission site and the population. So they don't circulate but if we drop below that magic ninety percent or thereabouts number, you do begin to see circulation in the population and therefore people who all susceptible doing Countess, and those people may be people who can't be vaccinated become very unwell. So what's behind the mistrust? Vaccinations when I think, is Donald Trump's old friend, fake news, an alternative facts and fortunately was happening is that there is, or the has been a sustained campaign of misinformation largely promulgated online, and I suspect this is occurring, because we've created with a lot of these artificial intelligence, algorithms, and systems that basically link you up to people who sing from the same songsheet that you do this whole idea that Maxine dangerous. And what happens is that if, if you tend to, like things on Facebook, for example, which agree with you, and they're of a certain stance or viewpoint then it's gonna feed you more of the same and pretty soon you begin to believe that everybody thinks same as you do. And so you then start espouse these theories is very dangerous on. So this is misinformation campaign going on and is amplified in this giant online echo chamber. And as a result, you know, people probably acting with what they think is informed in the best of the best intention. I don't want to do something that may be harmful to my child. It's the most precious thing I have, and the information they've been given is that this is bad not, this is safe goodness is protecting you and others. And as a result, they might the road decision, and of course, one of the people that started this was Andrew Wakefield foam Augusta. Interro Logist, and he published a paper in the Lancet, which said that linked the vaccine to autism in children. He's actually since been been struck off. I think we'll entry way food did publish a paper in the Lancet about twenty years ago and this showed an apparent association between when individuals have the memo a subsequent risk of autism and Asperger's type changes in that individual. This is subsequently been very, very profoundly disproved because what people have done is to look at very large populations as in million scale numbers of study subjects, and they have compared rates of autism in vaccinated versus non-vaccinated individuals. And actually, the rates of autism in some of these studies are higher in the individuals that don't give. Accent, too. So we're comfortable that there's no link, but yes, what it takes his poorly, judged, research, or poorly, judge publications plus people than using misinformation and amplifying online and becoming an authority in themselves. And there are lots of people who tell you all these things about why these things are bad, the ham, got a medical degree. I mean engine weight food does. But I mean, they didn't have a medical degree that have any knowledge they just have access to lots of online information that agrees with them. So bottom line is absolutely get vaccinated. Well, it's a serious disease and it kills lots of people, and there are lots of ways of dying of measles. It shouldn't be regarded as a trivial thing, despite modern medicine can do it still claims a lot of lives every year Christmas from naked scientists at Cambridge University. Thank you very much. Indeed. It's time to business now with the financial analyst Louise Cooper. Good morning, Louise. Good morning Georgina. Let's look at the fed who hasn't moved on rates. No. But pretty much the markets are expecting the Federal Reserve and the states, the US central Bank to cut rates in July. That's pretty much guaranteed. According to markets think and again, in September now, the Federal Reserve has a new a new boss. He was hired by Donald Trump. But what we've discovered in the last few days is that he is cutting interest rates as quickly as Donald Trump would like and therefore earlier this year, the White House, he also White House to look into whether he could fire mister Powell. Now, the point about federal an monetary policy interest rate policies. It's supposed to be independent of what the government does because, of course, if you control monetary policy, then, as a government, you can engineer massive booms, followed by massive busts, just by cutting interest rates to very, very low levels. And of course, that's not great for the population, although can be good for the politicians concerned writing on a boom. And yet, even. So, you know, he's put Donald Trump has his mind. They're he's not happy with how quick, he is cutting rights, because he hasn't caught a tool yet. But it is extraordinarily and he's six months ago. The Federal Reserve was talking about raising interest rates. Now, let me just give you a sense of the UK, US, economy, three point six percent unemployment. That is the lowest unemployment rate since nineteen sixty nine one hundred four straight months of job growth wages up three percent. The S and P five hundred is up sixteen percent year today and we're only in June one percent of all time high. None of those things, tell you that the economy needs more stimulus and yet, we have a Frederick, that is about to cut rates. It is truly extraordinary, but of course, if you look at Donald Trump's background, what is he he's a property tycoon the success of being a property owner really depends on massive amounts of cheap debt, which is what Trump wants to see. He wants to see very cheap debt in the US, of course that does. Well, the forget that Donald Trump has combined. A number of times. Now students are other people who get quite cheap debt. But it looks like some kids in China won't have any destitute all. So this is a great story. So there was American billionaire Robert Smith, who vowed to pay off loans of his undergraduates at one of his favourite American colleges. He came out with that about a month ago. We'll either this so much shit in being billionaire. Now we've got a Hong Kong, billionaire Li Ka-shing following in the American footsteps vowing to pay off the loans of undergraduates in a Chinese university. The shantelle university in Guangdong, apparently, this is where this is the province, which Li Ka-shing came from came to Hong Kong natives billions now giving back. So there's a couple of things I like the endless, you know, one ship of billionaires, but also the other entertaining angle. But hey, you've got to Hong Kong billionaire helping Hong Kong students, but Chinese mainland students. To get through their studies. And I'm wondering if a Hong Kong billionaire, you need to improve your popularity in Beijing, I do wonder and finally who invented bitcoin. Oh, now this is a fascinating one, the k because supposedly it's a fait it's completely an an anonymous person called Souto, she Nakamoto. And there's endless spec speculation in bitcoin circles about who this person actually, is by the way, he does own about nine billion dollars with bitcoin, so he's probably quite wealthy, but it's this mysterious inventor of bitcoin, and Australian-born technologist Craig. Right. Has been plaguing has hayme for quite a few years. Then there's the, the creator of an alternative digital currency called aether who basically took Craig White down and said, no. You know, of course, you're not the co creator of bitcoin. You're not that person. Now that w-. Was that was at a conference. It the video went on YouTube. It's round spoke to fresh round of tweets mucking Craig right? And so while than just backing down and saying, no, I didn't create the cryptocurrency. All I did and his proof. He has saw he is filed claims to file he's about file suits in UK for defamation. And he's got a whole load. He's podcast, he's the creator of ether who took him down to start with. He's, he's sort of got, usually you legal system to say you defaming me 'cause you telling me you're telling the world that I'm not the creator of bitcoin where am I am? This is hilarious. We, we will see where ends up. I think the exact comment, though, that the, the Craig White set to Bloomberg, this article this will give me my child's to prove my credentials in front of a judge RAV than Bing judge by Twitter. Tell you that comes to. That will be fascinating watch, and we'll get the popcorn out Georgina. Tashi nutca- most, it doesn't exist what he does. But we don't know who he is. He is this, this, this oppose it genius. Oh, by the way, I've got to repeat this last one for you. The net flicks. We all know it's the share prices amazing. It's enormous jets but we're starting to see how it's changing people's watching habits because net flicks claiming there's a new net flicks murder mystery. It's sort of a parody of Agatha Christie, starring American megastars. Jennifer Aniston and Adam Sandler. I watched it with a kid last night kids last night. We loved, it got thirty one million downloads in the first three days of its release now, assuming to people watch the movie on average, and it's about a nine dollar cinema ticket. That is that's the equivalent of an opening weekend at the box office of about five hundred million dollars would third largest ever amazing Louise Cooper. Thanks very much indeed. We'll maybe you are in FOX, touchy no men's fashion is on the agenda for Paris fashion week we've been looking at the gender divide and. Closing means business. Over the past few years, Perez has gradually swallowed Milan London and New York. At least when it comes to men's fashion, weeks, major reason for the dominance of Paris, where shows run into this Sunday. Is it look, sure? Conglomerate LVMH in defiance of the general industry trend to stage co EDS catwalks during womenswear weeks, LVMH has put its money behind men's only Parashos from its brands including veto that Luton Louis and Sydney. That means lots of big advertisers, showing, which means international press, and buyers, which means open coming brands from across the world. Flock to the French capital to it's no bad Feng. It gives his week at dynamism and cloud to rival the more feigned women's fashion weeks. And as the industry necessarily increases its focus on sustainability if feels logical for people together in one place for one banner men's showcase rather than fly into four or more seats each season, at least for the. Want it seems that the future of men's fashion weeks. Resides impairments. Thank you for nine, and that's all for today's program. Thanks to producers. Mocha's hippy. And Tom whole research is definitely needs. Nick, my niece and studio manage it some impede. I'm Tina Godwin and our return on the globe list at the same time tomorrow. Thank you. Phil listening.
Fast Money 05/28/20
"Fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US STOCKS. Ats Commission free based on. How much you want to spend. Instead of. By the share fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent dollar as traits can be entered out to two decimal places. Sell orders are subject to an activity assessment fee from one cent to three cents per thousand dollars of principal fidelity brokerage services member. Nyse PC starts right now. I'm Melissa lead. Tonight's straighter lineup. Guy Adani Tim Seymour. Nathan and Pete Nigerian will join US shortly coming up on fast tensions at a tipping point stocks tumble as president. Trump says. He will hold a news conference on China. Tomorrow we're live in Beijing with the very latest plus the four words saying Disney shares today. What they are and Howard. Traders are trading it later a cannabis combat. We'll tell you what's got the pot. Stocks lazing higher but we begin with a major new development coming out of the White House. After president trump signed executive order targeting social media companies. Let's get right to it Caylao. She's live in Washington with the latest Kayla. Melissa effort by the White House to target social media companies for a perceived bias has been underway for nearly a year. But in the wake of twitter's fact checking president trump's own tweets policy officials rushed the executive order out today. Here's what what is in it which the president signed this afternoon agencies from the FCC to the FTC and many other agencies in between are directed to review liability shields that are provided to these content companies the protect them from lawsuits over what appears on those platforms. The Department of Justice is directed to organize state attorneys general in that effort to enforce this crackdown. The federal government is also going to be issuing a widespread review of taxpayers dollars that are going to these platforms in terms of the government's own ads. Spending and all of this is expected to happen over the next thirty days these agencies are supposed to report back and these funding totals are supposed to be submitted to the Office of Management and Budget. Just last hour. President Trump said that he does not want taxpayer. Money going toward these politically political activists running monopolistic companies government spends billions of dollars on giving them money the rich enough so we're going to be doing none of it or very little of it. And the executive order is just part of the effort that the administration is launching here in the Oval Office when he was signing that executive order he was joined by the Attorney General said that there will be litigation accompanying this. Although president trump said that he imagined that this executive order end any lawsuit forthcoming from the administration would end up in a protracted legal battle but he expects that challenge and he wants that challenge also said there would be legislation coming but Melissa with a House of Representatives controlled by Democrats. It's not expected that would go anywhere. But it would be a symbolic stance of how the administration feels about Silicon Valley and specifically these social media companies and what they see as targeting of conservative content on those platforms Kayla. The president said the federal government spends billions of dollars. Is that is that really what they spend on advertisement with the pockets as deep as the Federal Government Melissa? It's easy to imagine that the spending isn't that ballpark. It's really hard to look into the labyrinthine contracts of these agencies to find out what exactly they are spending what we know is that just in recent months the Social Security Administration had a fourteen million dollar contract To put social media posts up related to the cares act payments small business administration had a one hundred thousand dollar increase in its social media spending over some of those cares act programs and the navy for just another example had a thirty three million dollar plan for online advertising. Although many of these online advertising digital advertising budgets Melissa they include everything from banners to pop up to e mail to everything including media. So it's hard to actually carve out. What the figure is. But you can bet that it's fairly large all right Kayla. Thank you Kayla Tau with the latest from Washington and let's check out the disconnect in the social stocks today twitter taking the hardest hit during the day. Facebook falling snap in pinterest though soaring presumably because they would be not subject to the same problems as twitter and facebook in the future guidance. Is this really a threat to the business model of twitter of a facebook l? Well it's definitely a threat but I think it's I think it's more of a veiled threat than anything else. Twitter's had a tremendous run for the last few weeks so it was probably due to take a bit of a breather these headlines. Obviously help. But you know I think this is more and I'll use the word Sherman to get some added at me but it's more bluster. I think than anything else. I do. Think twitter out of all. These things still sets up the best probably the most undervalued in terms of the names. You just mentioned the thing that concerns me. Technically is since September of last year. You know you've had that series of lower lows and lower highs and this seems to be forming another one technically. It's got a hold basically thirty bucks but out of the names you've mentioned are more inclined to own twitter here. The other three from an investor standpoint and should you take a look at the stances that the varying stances that facebook and twitter take in regards to expression. Facebook largely completely hands off twitter saying that. It is going to wade into this by putting that fact check. I'm certain political a tweets. Does that matter? Should you say you know what I don't want the Social Media Platform? I invest in to be any sort of arbiter of truth. It sounds to be a political issue. Here don't think it's nearly as bipartisan. As the president just mentioned in the Oval Office there. Listen I think Jack Dorsey tries to do the right things for the right reasons. Facts or facts. I think that's something that has obviously been something. That's been debatable. Over the last few years I think Mark Zuckerberg. I think we'll go down in history if you look at the last five years you look at the scale of the platform and you look at their hands off approach. And you're going to say to yourself. They have no control over this monster that they built and think his hands off approach will not be viewed quite favorably and then on the online ad sales thing you know when when you talk about the total number the president was talking about these guys have a monopoly facebook and Google monopoly. Twitter does not have under Napoli twitter. Do Three Point. Three Billion Dollars in sales in twenty twenty. That's less than ten percent of the entire online ad market here in the US. So to me I think what guy used the term bluster. I think there's a lot of bluster in what they're trying to do here and I don't suspect there's going to be any meaningful action taken against twitter. If it is bluster Tim than any sell offer any softness that you see in these stocks as a result of this bluster in theory should be bought. Yeah I I think we look. We have seen bluster. We've seen attacks on Amazon. We've seen attacks on on at times. Facebook certainly seen attacks on entities that at times the administration doesn't feel Side with their view and so Those of largely been things to they've been they've been buying opportunities. Doj attacks that seemed to be inspired by the administration seemed to have been Moments to actually to by looking at facebook and the run facebook has had going into the last forty eight hours of these headlines. It was an extraordinary run by facebook. Not only showed amazing resilience stirring Kobe. But then layered in this this this shops business and their ability to actually start to take place more of a retail platform on top of this advertising model. That so far does not look like it's it's really run into a headwind so you know facebook around to twenty. Let's see that's you know that that was resistance at the old highs now That will obviously be support. We're just about there but it's been an extraordinary run. Facebook is no longer cheap relative to itself even though it does trade cheap relatives. Some the other big mega cap tech names so for now you your question though was is bluster. A buying opportunity has proven to be in the past. Ladies and gentlemen. Mr Nigerian has joined us this evening. He is now in his in his quad box. Where he belongs Pete. I'm going to go back to the to the board of stocks. We showed at the very top of the show which showed facebook and twitter. Coming under pressure snap and pinterest thriving in today's session. Would you rather a basket of the facebook and twitter or basket of the snap and Pinterest? Oh I take facebook and twitter all day long and twice on Sundays I look at this right now and you guys all use the word bluster. So I'll just play along with that as well. It's one of these things mail. Where actually just take a look? Two weeks ago. We were looking at facebook. There was trading two hundred dollars a share and then suddenly it gets all the way up to two forty and just a blink of an. Ira felt like and then. We've had this little bit of a pullback even including today that's really not that sharp of a pullback I wouldn't say just yet when I'm looking at facebook and I think that's partially because people I think have understanding that based on what we heard from Zuckerberg in the route that they're taking. I mean let's not forget that facebook is not just facebook. I think it's all the other entities and those other entities are what's going to feed the monster going forward. I think over the next couple of years so I think there's a lot of different reasons why I own facebook. I like it I actually own calls it as well. So there's a there's a reason that I'm as bullish as I am and I think it's because they do dominate and so many different spots now twitter that really nice run recently as well had absolute rip roaring run to the upside There's been a lot of options trading in their dance. Probably seen it as well. A lot of this upside call buying that we had seen on there that kind of slowed down a little bit. But I wouldn't stay away from twitter for too long but I think the pressure will be on twitter far more so than we'll see on facebook at least over the next couple of weeks die. Approximately four years maybe fewer years from from today We thought that the election the election proved to be a very difficult time for facebook. Particularly the aftermath. We thought back then that the next election could be a risk. The next election is around the corner at this point. So is it. The same sort of risk especially as facebook is in twitter social media in general drawing the attention of Washington so closely. I think that's a great question. It doesn't appear to be and I think facebook to their credit credits. Probably done a good job a better job this time of trying to get in front of that and. I think they've been doing that now for the last couple of years you know. It's it's interesting to me. That facebook is a media company when it suits them and they're not a media company when it doesn't suit him which is really working well for the stock. I think tim nailed the level in terms. A to twenty. I think Pete outlined it really well they have a lot of lot more levers to pull in two thousand and one thousand nine hundred ninety two thousand twenty than they probably did fifteen sixteen so facebook sets up. Well I agree on twitter though I would push back and say twitter's had a good run. Yes it sold off from thirty five. But don't underestimate the power of twitter to persevere here in the wake of what is again for the time the first eight minutes of the shell the bluster out of the administration all right. Let's talk more about this. Blessed Brigand New York Times calmness and CNBC contributor. Jim Stewart. Jim always great to speak with. You Log was nice to be with you. Would you agree with our panel that this is mostly blessed or or? Does it actually impact the business? Well I think it probably you gotta take it somewhat curiously although I don't see as a significant business breath. This particular effort to deprive deprive social media companies. Have some catching they. Now have tickly against defamation laws. I think more worrisome long-term is ongoing antitrust investigation and this kind of rhetoric coming out of the White House establishes that no the president's out to get them and Maybe something that he doesn't like really want them to back down and let him get his way And he's threatening that's not and he's GonNa take whatever regulatory action against them and there is a big justice department into Google and facebook. Interestingly though I think twitter is much less vulnerable they are. I don't know how you make an against twitter Both US on facebook accusations. They try but twitter doesn't dominate any media market. I would be very hard as an astute media watcher. Jim I mean when you when you take a look at the the very different stances Mark Zuckerberg Jack. Dorsey are taking wish. You say it is a smarter route and your view will pick. It goes to the long-term credibility of the platform. And in that sense. I think Dorsey is is being smart. Here he's trying to maintain the credibility of twitter as a source of all evil information. And I think Zach Burgas much more willing to let facebook the kind of free for all and it may be because it's a different animal from twitter. Twitter is closer to a newspaper or some people go to twitter for breaking time information. They don't go there as much to trade little. You know it's news with your friends. I mean either. A lot of people on facebook who probably care what the president is saying about. You know curious with coach or something like that. They're on there. Because they're this their primary media outlets are interacting around so I think they both have a different reaction because they the different platforms service somewhat different Different Yeah Jim. Ultimately you know the the the issues for facebook in the past the irony is of course that they were under the magnifying glass of the administration off the last election and in fact there are many that argue that The the truly helped elevate this administration in the last election but facebook trades at a discount for a reason and I know you're not a financial analyst per se but again you have been watching this company Do you think it could come out of this? Election Cycle Mark Zuckerberg to me. Sounds like someone who is trying to tactfully kind of play a middle ground here and could we be removing? I know you're concerned about DOJ. But couldn't we be removing some of that headwind for the facebook discount? Yeah I think that's I think that's possible. I mean I think people have relatively low expectations about base looking worried that they're going to be manipulated as they were in the last time. I people infiltrating aside and we know from things. They've said that they are taking. The election concerns very seriously. I mean it's awkward has said he's not going to try to fact. Check everything on there but having you know fake individuals or you know secret Russian agents pretending to be someone else and disseminating information. They are doing things about that and if they can succeed at that. I think you're absolutely right. That's GONNA go a long way towards relieving some of the the biggest concern about that and then of course another thing. Is You know. Frankly I think the trust issues will be greatly diminished. If trump is not reelected. I I mean I think on the merits in remains to be seen but You know I think you saw what happened with the Justice Department going after AT&T. And Time Warner without looked in many ways I was politically driven lawsuit and was thrown out of court. I think you could see similar outcomes in me facebook. Jim Thank you for your time. Appreciate it great. Subject Jim Stewart at the New York Times. It got some breaking news out of the ASCA conference make trials got the story. Magnet will the world's largest cancer research conference is taking place this weekend of course virtually due to the pandemic but we are starting to see the first presentations being posted. And that's driving up the stock of Astra Zeneca the after hours more than six percent now on news about the company's lung cancer drug Briscoe it was shown to improve Or stave off decides progression in a certain form of lung cancer in this trial. They say after two years eighty nine percent of patients in the trial treated with so remained alive and disease free versus fifty three percent on placebo so analysts are forecasting. This will increase that drug sales. It is already on the market for AstraZeneca. Now back over to you all right Mike. Thank you Terrell Pete and Jerry and Astra Zeneca forty go. Yeah it's great name. I don't own it though. Mel I own several other names actually in the space. I think healthcare has been a great place to be overtime. I like Pfizer. I still like Merck. There's a lot of different names. Gilead in the biotech space. Everybody's working on covert. Of course it's great to hear somebody the outside of covert it's wonderful to hear something other than a covert sort of a deal. So I think that's great. I like AstraZeneca. Just think it trades at a premium relatives of some of the other names coming up shares the salesforce and Williams Sonoma on the move after reporting results with that whole team coverage. Break down the numbers. No magic for this kingdom I shares Disney down even as its Orlando Park gets ready to reopen fast monies. Back into fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US stocks and ETF's commission free based on. How much you spend. Instead of by the share fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent. Dollar-based trades can be entered to two decimal places. Sell orders are subject to an activity assessment fee from one cent to three cents per thousand dollars principal fidelity brokerage services member. Nyse SIPC welcome active fast money. We've got a pair of earnings alerts for you Williams sonoma and salesforce both on the move in the after session full team coverage standing by courting right digging in on Williams Sonoma. We kick things off Josh Lipton for more on salesforce Josh dig into the salesforce results. The segments subscription and support so the software revenue. Earning four point six billion that's in line Professional services so they're consulting services two hundred ninety million but the forecast light versus consensus cute to NPS sixty six to sixty seven cents. The street was closer. Seventy five cents revenue the guides for also life for the year. They're looking for between two ninety three to ninety five three dollars nine cents and they said look for the year for revenue to be up seventeen percent to about twenty billion shoot was close to twenty point seven. I did catch up with Steve Over wedbush bull. I wasn't his take. He says revenue did beat incensed by about nineteen million on lower expectations stocks. Selling off he says on this guy down. Crm says also lowered operating cash flow forecast. He billings did show twenty percent growth in beat consensus. He says he remains a buyer that. This is a resilient business mild. His words strong secular drivers and reasonable valuation on the call salesforce CEO Marc. Benny off saying the first month of the first quarter showed in his words. Amazing growth trajectory. Then he says the virus emerge and which time has company he says pivoted to keep employees safe guide customers and support our communities. The pipeline is strong. He says and we can operate successfully in any environment at any time for more on Benny off. Checkout Jim Cramer's show tonight mad money. We're Benny Office. Part of a jam packed. Show back to you all right Josh. Thanks Josh Lipton in San Francisco. It was a tremendous going into this quarter though the stock up seventeen percent With a down now I four percent in. Yeah Mel up fifty percents from the lows. Today the stock was trading. Almost one eighty five in sympathy with the really strong quarter and guidance from workday so like you said really tough setup and listen. I think this is really important as we get to the tail end of s and p five hundred earnings here a lot of these companies vet another month kind of see what this selling environment looks like even in the enterprise like salesforce dot com so this guidance make sense. I don't think you can take anything away from an especially. If it proves to be conservative I think as an investor after strong gains in a lot of areas of the market. You'd like to see CEOS management set up some guidance that they can beat later on which white a tougher year as we get into the meat of twenty twenty guide. I mean does seem prudent. Either pull it right or you lower and listen if you look in terms of what they did on the Revenue Front for this quarter. I think it's actually very remarkable. Dance point though. It's had a huge run. If you're looking for re entry point I think it comes into form one sixty five and if you go back and look over the last year or so you know that's a level where it's sort of plateaued for a while so that makes a lot of sense past resistance become support and I think you'll find it in the form of hundred and sixty five dollars Mil all right. Let's williams-sonoma now. That's DOC is rocketing higher after reporting results courtney rate and it's got the details court. I'm Melissa. This is a pretty unique quarter because Williams. Sonoma put up positive comps. Even though all six hundred sixteen stores were closed for more than half the quarter. How they do. It was a combination of more than half of their sales being digital catalog anyway and consumers really turning into home purchasing in a lot of ways during the shelter in place order so for the first quarter Williams sonoma a for the first quarter Williamson over really beating analysts earnings estimates by really wide margins revenue also stronger than expected total concert two point six percent and the digital comes alone. Thirty one percents you. Laura Albert said that it really did have breakout growth in digital towards the second half of the quarter and that that breakout growth she says es continuing now into the second quarter if you look at a breakdown by brand it was pottery barnes teen and kids division had calms that. We're the strongest up eight and a half percent the namesake brand up more than five percent west elm up more than three. The main Pottery Barn brand was the only one with lower comps but lower only by a little more than one percent the company also calls its liquidity position. Strong with eight hundred and sixty million dollars in cash not giving any guidance and then just now on the earnings conference call. Ceo Laura Albert says that of the three hundred sixty four stores that are open by appointment only so far. The customer response has been strong. But she caveats that by saying social distancing and customer limits that will remain in place well at least constrain store sales for some time back over to you all right court. Thank you Courtney Reagan. This makes sense right. You're sheltering at home. You realize you want to replace the coffee table. You might need a new look. Rousse Dutch oven. Tim which is I. Think what you realize when you're at home but doesn't last after the pandemic or seen forward from the rest of the year now and some fondue mixers and all that stuff I was in. We bought a couch. We bought a couch. It hasn't arrived yet and in fact. I can't wait for it to arrive. So I get it like Williamson has been such an extraordinary move off the bottom. It's one hundred ninety percent off those lows but it's a microcosm for the market because analysts that are negative. You are saying this whole nesting trend. It will be challenged by by employment issues. It will be challenged by free cash flow shoes for the household balance sheets so valuation for this company. Nowhere near cheap relative to itself. We're trading somewhere around seventeen times two thousand and twenty one eva dessert or probably captured on eight times. I liked the name. I like the trend. I think we are nesting more. But this may not be the place I go I prefer and I prefer Home Depot and Lowe's to better capture this trend he I love the valuation. She mentioned actually all that cash. I like that balance sheet as well. I say from that perspective. Everything is great and this is the Perfect Company for for the Times that we've been in and right because of catalogue and digital and all the sales that they take from there she met Tobel about fifty percent of that so when I look at that Mel. I'm impressed and I'm impressed because it's not cheap the stuff that Tim's vying out there it's expensive so it's one of these things where we've got a pretty high margin businesses well so on top of all of that. I think going forward. It's impressive to me. That people are spending that kind of money which they are and they're doing so at the way they are so I think because of that I still think there's plenty of more upside for this because as people come out and they can go to the stores and touch and feel it. That's just going to be one more opportunity to sell to the customer catches and that's don't come cheap right guy. I mean no and saying nobody loves a Dutch oven as much as Tim does. Just throw out there. And and Pete's right I'll tell you this I mean it's a great company that comps for this. The cops were ridiculous. I mean the street was looking for minus. Fourteen percent. Came UP WITH UP POINT. Two point six percent which is just remarkable. The only thing that concerns me here as it were bumping up against the highest we saw back in January that seventy eight and a half level. That's the one thing that gives me pause. Otherwise remarkable quarter all right coming up tensions flaring up between Hong Kong and China. How Beijing latest move could have big impacts on your money relying on the ground in China and later Elon must get the Jackpot will tell you how much money the Tesla. Ceo just locked in fast back into welcome back to bass money big news within the past the hour and a half or so president trump is set to hold a news conference on China tomorrow. This comes left after Beijing. Pass a new law. That effectively overrides Hong Kong's autonomy. Unicef is live for us in Beijing with the very latest. Hi Eunice Hi Melissa. Well people here going to be watching to see whether or not president trump is going to announce sanctions on China or possibly even rip up the trade deal today in defiance of Washington Chinese lawmakers had approved national security legislation which essentially gives Beijing much. More control over the city. It paves the way for the leadership. Here to clamp down on activities in Hong Kong that it sees a subversive to the Chinese state and a possibly allowing it to set up intelligence agencies. There now many Hong Kong as you could imagine are worried about the implications that this would have for their freedoms. There's been a lot of speculation. About what the. Us response could be a visa restrictions. Perhaps for Chinese officials a freeze on transactions and also The idea that the US could withdraw its special trading status with Hong Kong is on the table after secretary of state. Mike Pompeo had declared that. Hong Kong is no longer autonomous from mainland China. That is seen as the first step in that direction. Now the business community in Hong Kong is very concerned about what this would mean. I spoken to manufacturers are worried about higher tariffs a Hong Kong firms. Who said that this could mean that they will have less access to more sensitive advanced technology and then business associations have also said that the business climate would suffer their urging right now that the US. They're hoping anyway that the US is going to slow walk. It's response now so far. The State Department has criticized China's moves along with a Canada Australia as well as the UK. And my guess expecting today the Foreign Ministry is going to probably say that all those countries should but out of China's internal affairs that sounds like that would be the responsiveness. I'm curious in terms of the manufacturers. You spoken to are they domestic or local manufacturers because it does seem like there are certain national champions coming to defend Beijing's move and I'm thinking most notably Li ka-shing the billionaire tycoon in Hong Kong. Who who basically backed Beijing. Yeah and there are a lot of Chinese manufacturers who have spoken to but also China based manufacturers that are owned by Americans or by Europeans or by Taiwanese. They're all saying very similar things that they are concerned about the implications because a lot of the goods that are manufactured in China route themselves through Hong Kong because the terrorists. There are so competitive. So that's One concern that Hong Kong as a trading post is is really going to suffer as along with all of these these various companies all right Eunice. Thank you unison. Union Beijing for US President Trump's top economic advisor blasting China for Hong Kong crackdown. Here's what Larry Cudlow said earlier today on. Cnbc we can't let this go noticed and they will be held accountable for that. If need be Hong Kong now may have to be treated the same way that China is treated and that has implications for tariffs and that has implications for financial transparency and stock-market listings. Unrelated matters I think China has made a huge mistake. All Right Tim. When you take a look at Domino's and what sort of falls based on all these actions what is the biggest impact in terms of how can impact your portfolio in terms of companies in sectors. Well again I think emerging markets remember if you own the em which is the that is the EM index. It's roughly forty three percent China Between you know the core Chinese names and then some of those that are even listed over here like Alibaba etc so I think emerging markets which don't need a headwind which really underperformed We'll struggle here having said all that I I I do think we've seen some of the recovery post covert nineteen in Asia. Look at Taiwan semi look at Alibaba. Look at tencent. I mean these. Those are three great companies. That if they're in your portfolio. I don't think it's time to throw them to the door. In fact I think the resilience that we've seen with with names that are either critical to the global supply chain look at Taiwan semi There are a lot of companies that are in serious trouble. So I you know I think the the bigger implications for markets here and I think the self late in the day Certainly had a lot to do with with headline. We've been talking about this for a couple of weeks now And I think this is exactly what gave us pause in October into those lows on October third. I think we have to be careful as a market for this. All right for more on the Hong Kong risks as well some of the other one facing the market. Let's bring in Jonathan Gallup the Chief Equity Strategist at Credit Suisse. Jonathan great to speak with you. Good to be here. We did see the reaction the market as soon as we heard that the president was going to have a news conference tomorrow. We had the S. and P. Five hundred you know turn lower. So is this finally You know a risk that the market is starting to grapple with. Yeah I mean this is and that's where we're just hearing a second ago. This is part of a larger China Global Trade Issue Independent. This we had trade issues with With China when the pandemic came about there's been all kinds of concern about the role that China has played in that and their transparency and that created for the tensions there was Some real concerned about the importance of of China to our Supply chains which perhaps put Us businesses in the US. You know economics at at risk and all of that was already brewing before this this issue and so this is coming at appear in a period of tension between the US and China and you know the market You know the the market wasn't particularly happy about it today but I think the long-term issue for the markets is. Will we see a walking back of global trade in a way? Which would you know which would hinder long-term growth Not just in in the current but really to change those relationships. So the trade issues heightened tensions with China to perhaps levels. We haven't seen since the beginning of the trade war. Jonathan and the lack of clarity on earnings does it make sense for the markets to be where they are right now but no. That's that's the that's the short answer. But we're trading right now like it's nineteen ninety nine and everything is just terrific We're we're trading at twenty one and nearly a twenty one and a half stock market multiple. We put out a report Earlier it was actually yesterday which looks at what the returns are When you start The future returns next decade. If you're starting at twenty one multiple and picture isn't really pretty for stock market returns when when you're starting at an elevated p what's before dividend historically the average is about zero and? I'm not saying that that's what we're going to get. It seems far too ominous. I don't believe that but it's likely to be something. That's much more suppress. I think what the Fed has done here is. They've pulled forward years of returns into the last three months or two months and the result is that basically taking it away from from future Results in at some point in time everybody is is celebrating this liquidity but what's liquidity is borrowed. Money in some point. We need to pay this back so yeah I think stock prices are too high Jonathan. Thanks for your time always good to speak with Jonathan Ghalib Credit. Suisse Pete. You're probably the most bullish on the panel on relative basis. What would you say to sort of counter what Jonathan said because that is that's pretty depressing finding in terms of the return over the next decade when a Pe is twenty one? Yeah I find that interesting and I tell you I stood on the trading floors and ninety nine so I totally understand what really was going on. And that's he's he's incorrect on that because the multiples were absolutely insane. When you look at the Nasdaq the multiples were closer up into the Forties Mel. So it's it's a really different time and it was done by obviously all this money and all this liquidity and everything that was thrown at the markets was thrown at it. Because we all understand what was going on it was the pandemic and everybody was doing everything they could after stopping the market. So I don't know that I agree with the notion that it's even anything close to nineteen thousand nine those were inflated and they were far more inflated than what we're seeing right now doesn't mean we're not we probably are in front of ourselves. This is a pretty rapid recovery. And so I think that part is a little bit concerning but I just don't see the overvalued side of it as much as Jonathan was laying out there because when I look at so many different names you look at you. Look at the names that are leading the big five power five. Those names are all relatively still reasonable. I think in terms of price and then you look over the financials who've made a little bit of a move of late until today a little bit of a pullback but those are trading at incredibly low multiple so across the board I can point to so many different areas where. I'm not seeing anything even close to one thousand nine hundred and terms of multiple so I if you want me to throw the the bull hat in the ring I will based on that all right coming up. Disney shares not feeling the love tonight have investors. Gone too optimistic about a reopening and later. Canada's combat. We'll tell you what's the pawsox blazing hire fast. He's back into welcome back to FAST MONEY. Disney dropping today on a downgrade at imperial capital. Which says the SOCK has come too far too fast. The analyst cutting his rating to an underperform lowering the price target to one. Oh five share Termi by two bucks. It's primarily evaluation. Call Guy but for every imperial you've got to J. P. Morgan initially reiterating its overweight rating and JP Morgan reiterated with one hundred and thirty five dollars price target. So that's what makes markets as they say. Let me be clear. When Dizzy reported couple weeks ago stock was trading. Either side of one hundred. I WAS PRETTY CONVINCED. We'd go down trade down and ninety two dollars and see what would happen there that proved to be incorrect. Obviously the reopening got people excited but Disney in this environment. I think most people would say is not cheap. And they're clearly is a lot of uncertainty. You know I think the run up to this one twenty-one level it's been excessive. I could definitely see it back down to one zero five but it becomes down evaluation. Call what you're comfortable with as much as I love. And you know it my favorite ride Mister Toad wild ride and. I can't wait to get back on it at some point in the fall followed quickly by the hall of Presidents. I just think the stock is a little rich in this environment for me. I think that Some rights of difficult in terms of social distancing and hall presidents might be. Well I mean the crowds for that particular ride are just off the charts all the time. Dan is to ensure you. Can I mean JP is pointing out the plans? To Reopen Disney world in Orlando and also the release of. Milan is still on track for July. So things are are improving for Disney. Does that Merit Abai here? Well I like optically. They're improving Disney but the parks operating at fifty percent capacity movie theaters operating at fifty percent capacity. You tell me when. Espn's GonNa have something other than the last dance on their Disney plus the mandatory Orient. I watched it three times already getting a little old. I Love Disney here. I Love Disney under one hundred dollars. I think this stock will continue to have trouble at one twenty. That was the area it broke out last year after the announce of Disney plus the reveal of their plans for it but yes it is expensive here and without the clarity of when their businesses the studios the parks the network's all that stuff is going to be running at some place over fifty percent capacity. I think it is expensive here about one. Twenty coming up the pasta are smoking hot. You keep off the grass or roll into these names or cannabis. King is here. We'll get into the weeds for US next. But I makes mega money. We'll tell you how much tesla's CEO just locked in fast back into welcome money Tesla's CEO. Elon Musk just locked in a major pay day. Does here at the details Phil. Hey Melissa remember when Elon. Musk was awarded. This huge incentive laden package back in two thousand eighteen people said. This is outrageous. How can he ever be awarded fifty five billion dollars? He'll never make it to any of those benchmarks well. He is officially made. The first one talked about this when it happened a couple of weeks ago the first performance based pay out for Eli. Musk has been approved. By the Tesla Board that is worth seven hundred and sixty eight million dollars on paper. How did he get there? Pretty simple really. Because they had achieved a hundred billion dollar market cap for Tesla shares for thirty consecutive days and a six month average of one hundred billion dollar market gap along with a couple of other benchmarks. They had to hit. He got one point. Six Million Tesla shares options to purchase those shares at three hundred and fifty dollars a piece. The shares must be held for five years. But guys that is a seven hundred and sixty eight million dollar payday by the way if you take a look at shares of Tesla going all the way back to March twenty first of two thousand eighteen. That's when the shareholders approved the pay package and at the time people said well. Okay maybe one hundred billion they might get their. What's the next benchmark market cap over a hundred and fifty billion dollars not only for thirty days but for a trailing average of six months? That would have to be at eight hundred dollars a share. Oh look we're the stock is right now. They would have to average that for the next six months and then at least for thirty straight days. Melissa I remember when when the board first approved that we thought that that was not and it's not just one or two this twelve tranches Karenin of of benchmarks that we've already based and if he were to hit the twelfth one the market cap would be six hundred and fifty billion dollars for Tesla. Nobody's expecting that to happen. But that's the twelve the final benchmark that he would need to hit and there's other parameters within their in terms of profitability. But those are the main ones. It's the market cap. Wow fell thank you phil lebow in Chicago for us. Imagine that six hundred and fifty billion dollars market cap guy dummy. You hear about a big payday package like that was this high was a CEO. Worth it in this case absolutely. I mean say what you want about finding secure all that all that stuff he's worth. It doesn't seem if you recall back in the day there was a somebody that worked in the crime world is name was John Gotti and his nickname was the Teflon Don. And I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT MR. Musk has anything nefarious going on but he is teflon as well. I mean nothing seems to stick and to answer your question. I think anybody bought him this. We'd be having a much different conversation about Tesla stock. So you don't like them. You have to admit the man is a visionary and the stock has done a lot better than ninety nine percent of the population ever considered possible. Just quickly story. We didn't really hit yesterday. Because of the SPACEX launch being scrubbed was the price cuts in North America to percent on vehicles. Tim and to some they may say there might be a demand problem. In this pandemic the people that actually seeing the impact of the pandemic spending habits and Tesla's feeling the pain Tesla at times has done different things to bring prices down and ultimately the question is. What's what's the break even price on the model three? That's that's my biggest you but not surprising to see them cutting prices. They're not the only one out there cutting prices so I won't pile on there but clearly I think demand is an issue. All right still had a big opportunity in retail operators. Are Betting on a breakout with this name. We'll bring it to you when fast money return. Welcome back to pass money shares of lows managing to hold and the Green. Despite today's late day selloff over in the options market traders are betting on even bigger games ahead with the home improvement. Sock MICHEALS got the action. He Mike Hi Melissa. So the home improvement space and the home builder's basically a lot of options activity this week. Home Depot and Lowe's also amongst those names that we're seeing bullish activity. Lows traded three times as many calls as puts today. Most of that activity was short. Dated speculative bets to the upside. The most where the weekly one thirty calls we saw over nine thousand of those trading very cheap those were things trading just under fifteen cents those are making bullish bets that the rally that we saw earlier this week could continue through the end of the day tomorrow. Maybe a pop of about four percent or so all right. Thanks for that Michael. More options action. Be sure to tune into the full show. That's tomorrow five thirty PM eastern time up next high time for the POT saxl breakdown. Those big moves shares a canopy growth jumping more than nine percent ahead of tomorrow's earnings and investors have been lighting up the space shares of till Ray Afria Cronos all surging double digits justice month. It's worth noting. Many of these names are still well. Below THEIR FIFTY. Two week highs. So what's feeling the cannabis crazy got to ask the king? Now we love we love these punts so first of all kind of growth is traded through the two hundred day to the upside for the first time since January two thousand nine so momentum has changed massive short-covering but that's not why you're buying the fundamentals have improved but before that the macro improved so we know illegal to essential in the last eighteen months. We also know that the safe act was at least pushed into the cares to point to act around covert nineteen. There's ballot initiatives for the macro is better. The state sales are much better than expected Michigan. Illinois you name it but then the fundamentals think of the big American. Msn announced or actually single state operators truly truly with almost fifty million Eva Ebidine margins. That are very impressive. Gti which came in about twenty five million in dot fifty two percent roughly on Ebay margins cheerily full. Do One hundred forty seven in pro forma. Did one hundred forty seven and Pro Forma. So the point is that profitability. While companies around the world are pulling guidance cannabis companies are very happy to give guidance because some of the bigger players the United States are actually profitable and they've shown trends of profitability so canopy growth is become a much more focused company they invested in. Terrasson terrace and hires Jason Ackerman. Ceo who ran freshdirect no CPG knows. Consumer the industry's gotten sophisticated. It's rationalized balanced. There's been a lot of pain. But it's been a very important time for cannabis in a very exciting time. All right it is time for the final trade now. Let's go around the horn. Pete Nigerian going to go with lows. I agree with my Co. I love that I action. I actually bought out week further so I got a little bit of Time Fan. Yes nap is not in trump's crosshairs but it's in tiktok crosshairs. It wouldn't be buying this up seven percent move to give a lot of resistance at eighteen bucks can Alibaba I don't think is in the US crosshairs. And I think you're buying weakness in this massive Chinese mega captaining guy it Downey. Yes Mel. Will you might notice that my low over my right shoulder is in your crosshairs wonderful dog. That Milo what also is wonderful and I think people would say giddy up to this has been and will continue to be Pan American silver. Paas thanks we can pass the evacuate tomorrow at five. That money starts right now. Fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US stocks and ETF's commission free based on. How much you want to spend. Instead of by the share fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent. Dollar-based trades can be entered out to two decimal places. Sell orders are subject to activity fee from one cent to three cents per thousand dollars of principal fidelity brokerage services member NYSE SIPC.
"You're listening to the globalist first buddhist on the sixteenth of august two thousand nineteen on monocle twenty four the globalist in association with u._b._s. <music>. Hello this is a globalist coming to live from. Madeira has in london. I'm emma nelson and a very warm welcome. Today's show coming up thousands of military. He police gather on the border with hong kong will ask the beijing authorities might be planning next also ahead in the next sixty minutes we hear about the australian prime ministers scott morrison's ends attempts to address climate change plus bananas certain summer song all that plus the latest tech news and the newspapers to that's all ahead right here in the globalist live from london <music>. What does the site of chinese military police amassing in the chinese border city of shenzhen mean for the protesters in hong kong. The shenzhen bay sportscenter has been full of thousands of members of china's people's armed police. The armed forces unit dedicated located two crushing internal unrest practicing drills well our hong kong bureau chief is james chambers and he joins us now on the line from hong kong james could you you bring us up to date with the latest please. Well most people will be aware. The hong kong airport was effectively shutdown this week on monday and tuesday by protesters <hes> <hes> i actually arrived back in hong kong last night and it's all <hes> up and running again. It was extremely quiet and you. There was no actually no signs of of anything having gone on in previous few days <hes> so while the airport is fully functioning now but as you said there's reports of these <hes> chinese military ah gathering in in shanzen the official <hes> reason for this is is preparing for drills as a big anniversary happening on october the first of the formation of the foundation of the people's republic of china <hes> so they officially preparing for for that kind of stuff but obviously we all know that <hes> they're eh just watching the situation in hong kong now <hes> i guess the fact that <hes> the airport was closed down that really has got everyone's attention and some some very ugly scenes at the airport <hes> since the protesters have left they they have taken a bit of time to reflect on on. I guess how how how the <hes> how behaved the during those times especially essentially <hes> detaining a couple of people and beating them up so there's a bit of <hes> it's quite quiet at the moment in hong kong but <hes> we're preparing for another weekend protest indeed i mean what does the the the presence of military police police conducting drills on the border do for those who intend to protest this weekend one suspects that they may be a chilling effect while it you can't ignore the fact that it's very deliberate is essentially it is a warning but <hes> you know when when you think about it <hes> it is it surprising that the the chinese government are being prepared or you know i in case <hes> something does happen that escalates it even further to to what we saw at at the airport so <hes> on you know on the one hand <hes> it's definitely a warning <hes> you know if if if protesters go even further than the chinese step in <hes> but there's also it you know it's i guess it's understandable that beijing would want to be ready if they do need to intervene <hes> but <hes> it's it's interesting how they're the johny government do <hes> many things to try and end this one is kind of hard power display that we've been talking about but there's a lot of other things going on and and the big focus right now today is <hes> is on the economy and business <hes> hong kong's riches manley cashing <hes> he's taken taken out loads of adverts in most of the papers basically calling for an end to the violence say enough is enough. If there's any more will risk risk <hes> you know hurting hong kong <hes> beyond repair now this <hes> this can be seen as a cynical response to a meeting the all these tycoons in hong kong or call to by the beijing government's <hes> a few weeks ago basically suggesting that they use their influence <hes> and try and i'm encouraged protesters in hong kong bring into this <hes> li ka-shing is notoriously influential people have often looked up to him in hong kong because he is incredibly enrich a self made man <hes> but <hes> he certainly doesn't have that sway anymore especially on the youngsters who are taking part in this and this could backfire arnhem indeed. It's the the advert that he's taken out. <hes> is is rather puzzling. Some might suggest i mean you say he's he's the richest man but he is urging people all to stop protesting in the name of love. He's saying love freedom. Love tolerance love the rule of law. <hes> arguably things at the protesters would claim claim is exactly what they were doing. Yes indeed it's you can see right through the you know. The tycoons are at the end of the day looking after their own business interests and a lot of those business interests do these days lie in in china and not necessary so much in hong kong <hes> so he no one of his adverts is is <hes> calling for an end to the protests another one who's got more of a re <hes> obscure reference to to chinese history where it compares hong kong kind of fruit tree and says <hes> you know if we pick too much from the fridge we risk <hes> killing it <hes> <hes> <hes> so he's he's making a direct appeal to protesters and this this comes a day after <hes> there was some more adverts in all the papers from <hes> <hes> a group calling themselves the people from hong kong. The silent gets the silent majority and these these people are saying that we we've been silent for too long. <hes> you know when they when the protest attack ledge go. We said nothing when they blocked the streets. We said nothing when they attacked police. We said nothing when they <hes> stopped <hes> when they shut down the airport we he said nothing <hes> now. It's time for us to to speak up and say you know enough is enough. If we don't say something now than you know hong kong could <hes> could die in silence. I guess at the end of the day it <hes> it all comes down to you know hong kong as a business hub and <hes> you know that these protests protests seriously damaged that and you know what we saw yesterday was the finance sector coming out and announcing some some more measures to to try and help businesses in hong kong <hes> and warning that <hes> recession in hong kong home in his imminent who has suffered the most financially sleep because of these protests well. I mean this is these protests will have will have touched on everybody. It's no doubt it's the small businesses it's particularly in the in the tourism industries which will have been affected most because i guess they that their pockets aren't as deep <hes> some of the the tycoons <hes> <hes> you know the we've seen a lot of impact from his already. You know the the the property prices are falling. There's <hes> these probably develop is a trying to get rid of that their apartments cheaper the government is struggling to sell its land at the high prices that were we're used to but <hes> of course all those these people have <hes> plenty of cash stored up the people who will have been most affected by this other small businesses that rely on turist coming to hong kong now. If anybody saw as most of us all the scenes on on on monday and tuesday at the airport that will obviously have put a lot other people from coming here and i was just speaking to another colleague of mine who who flew in late last night as well and we both have the same experience the the aeroplanes weren't weren't full as we expected expected it actually half empty so i mean it's already having a direct impact and tell us therefore what is expected to happen this weekend. There have been more protests planned how ever they have been restricted to certain areas of hong kong. Is that right yes. The the the police seem to now be <hes> withholding their approval level for protest marches and instead the only thing they authorizing is is a rally so rally <hes> authorized for victoria park which is normally whether it's big march is <hes> starts off <hes> but but no no marches i've actually be <hes> got police consent but that's not stopping <hes> the protesters. Oh chester's from you know from this evening onwards. There's a whole suite of things <hes> plant and it seems like <hes> more and more sectors are getting involved awesome now. <hes> teaches planning their own march is <hes> and <hes> <hes> some some teachers in some organizations representing teachers have said that even when on school starts up in in in september that they're not going to stop students from taking part in actually going to facilitate it by sending them homework <hes> this could be seen as a direct response to one of the adverts yesterday which directly called on parents and teachers to stop students going out so <hes> there's a whole as a whole <hes> the whole laundry list the protests <hes> planned for this weekend so it it shows no signs of letting up despite the troops amassing on the border boondoggles james chambers there. Thank you for joining us listening to multiple twenty four and this is the globalist and the moment we look at the australian prime ministers approach to climate change plus a look at the day's front pages but i with the time seven ten here in london. Let's have a summary now of some of the other world news headlines north korea has rejected the prospect respective any further talks with south korea and has testified two more missiles into the sea pyongyang accused of south president moon jae in of being a truly shameless man the suggesting peace negotiations while holding joint military exercises with the u._s. South korean president responded by varying the unites. The korean peninsula not two thousand forty five to u._s. Democrat congresswoman initially barred from visiting the occupied west bank and east jerusalem because at prominent critics of the israeli government alana coma and rashida were due to travel next week the u._s. President donald trump tweeted it would show great weakness if the pair were allowed entry and the a._b._c. program jimmy kimmel live has been fined almost four hundred thousand dollars. The mimicking of presidential alert on the show copied the emergency tone three three times during a comedy sketch making fun of the warning. It happened on the same day. The alert was officially tested across the u._s. This is a globalist stay tuned a summit on climate change is usually one of the few international gatherings will world leaders is try to outdo each other on how nice they can be at the annual summit of the pacific islands forum into value australia has pledged three hundred and forty million dollars dollars to fund climate change resistance projects however it stopped short of saying it'll give up coal as a power source and it's caused some problems kate lines is a journalists the guardian australia and is currently infinity into value and i'm delighted to say she joins me now. Welcome to monocle twenty four eight at what the australians doing or rather what are really not doing. It's been a very interesting week. We've had a very clear delineation between the rest of the the eighteen eighteen countries territories who president this mating seventeen of them quite firmly on the side of strong climate action and then you have ustralia the lone dissenting voice in the pack and of course the wealthiest and in many ways most powerful voice of that pack so the latest went off today the this retreat yesterday it was the day of the summit where all eighteen repair to it sort of retreat venue maybe not allowed anywhere near it and and debate and discuss the language of communication forum communique that ben is used as the basis for regional decision making and policy policymaking over the next year it stretched on for nearly twelve alice <hes>. We were eagerly waiting in during the morning. I spoke with the following up prime minister sup one who said he expected things to be done by lunch time which we all thought was rather optimistic but what we're eighty eight p._m. Nine p._m. And finally they emerged looking absolutely exhausted and admitted that they had been a huge tensions in the room. I spoke to a eh. Someone who was observing the debate at the vanuatu foreign minister who said it was <hes> frank and at times fees the discussion was was broke down twice and they had to have a break. Let people calm down cool to stain on before coming together to try to sort out language they could legrand and the discussion almost broke down over australia's refusal to back away from certain red lines it had which was didn't want mentions ends of coal in the communique which of course is a huge part of strategies economy. It did not want to have any language about trying to limit global global warming to less than one point five degrees there was language about the green climate fund and about committing to net zero by twenty-fifty but basically australia's had a very different view on reducing its own emissions and it almost derailed the whole thing one of the those those inside that heated meeting with the prime minister an a support go off to <hes> he said i think we should have done more work for my people and directly accused the australian prime minister scott morrison of prioritizing the australian economy over this saving of the climate and the future each of safety of of generations. How scott morrison responded to such an accusation. Yeah it was a very powerful moment when i'm used to stop along. I said that to us as we as he emerged from the from the meeting <hes> looking very very very lucky needed a hot meal a cold drink and he repeated that again this morning at a joint press conference with scott morrison which was just really striking. I asked the prime minister prime minister marcin in about later on and he sort of of the skated he said look. I understand the sensitivities in the region. I understand that for this region. This is not a dinner party. Conversation climate change is very very real and affecting them greatly but yes he's his line about these trillion economy that these china government will say is they need the australian economy to be strong in order for the region to be strong so australia is the key diana china to this region eight pose a huge amount of money in investment and partnerships and in age relative to other countries. I mean australia try. Leah blank places has massively slashed at sage budget so it's not huge amount there to boast about. They are very very significant partner and so all throughout this week the language has been you need us to be economically strong to survive in order to be economically strong. We need coal so don't push us to transition away from call more rapidly than we would like to which is a very very difficult message for pacific civic island latest to swallow obviously when they facing to value the talk they don't know when it will become uninhabitable purpose for when it will become submerged. It's it's decades. Essentially sort of that's the timeframe we're talking to the silent and therefore can be done now given the fact that you have this one lone voice who you say <hes> is obviously the most is comes from the wealthiest country country. What is the next step. After such a division well the though it was very very tense and though it was disappointing that australia did not do what the the pacific greatest hoped they would. There is some hope in the statement and the communique and that is is the strongest climate change statement that this region has agreed on there are some really strong mentions of all things in there <hes> <hes> that people who were drafting the legislation the van of watching foreign minister and a watch his very strong climate change climate action and with key just a real force behind. I'm pushing this through as they were last year in a row with the boy declaration that is a very very strong document that has really galvanized the region agent to to fight for in this climate fine. There are some lines in that are very strong mentioned of i._p._c. report. There is a mention of one point five degrees warming warming the this stuff so it's it's not the case. I'm the potty never can be friends again but i think the talk is that a small island state leaders are really disappointed and also cry. Cry resigned the word that i'm hearing. They've they've realized that australia. It was not going to sort of pull miracle at nor. Did we expect it. Australian domestic policy the climate policy would have required a rapid at radical complete transformation and of course huge huge ructions among this corpus at home in order to deliver something the pacific on latest would have been completely happy with but the one one thing that gives some some some hope and a feeling that things might change is next year it will the pacific from will be hosted in vanuatu and having that time grand advantage having a second year to build on what happened this year <hes> we'll get. We'll hopefully see more action in the coming year caitlyn's. Thank thank you very much indeed for joining us on the globalist still to come how to do with the u._s. As domestic terrorism issues one of the big differences with the way that the united states treats domestic terrorism versus foreign terrorism is that we classify specific groups as terrorist groups if they are foreign and we do not classify any groups as domestic domestic terrorist groups this needs the globalist stay with us bs has nine hundred investment analysts from over one hundred different countries over nine hundred of the sharpest minds and freshest thinkers in the world of finance today the one that's more no one knows small and find out how we could help me her contact us at u._b._s. Dot com toppling of zimbabwe's president robert mugabe in two thousand seventeen was seen as a fresh beginning in the country's history however instead instead of the progressive reforms the country had hoped for and expected zimbabwe under its current leader. Emerson mnangagwa has been described as even worse power cuts from dawn to dusk gas shortages even a sense of nostalgia for the old regime while i'm joined by winston manor director of the african media center at the university steve westminster here in london. Welcome back to the winston. We'll move onto this issue of the of of the situation for people living in zimbabwe at the moment but some news is broken overnight in terms of a- protests that had been planned but has now been stopped. Just the government is <hes> panicking about this so they have <hes> banned it last night and <hes> the opposition is not taking it lying down. They've gone to court to make make sure that it goes ahead. What was purchased in originally going to be about. They want to the the prices have gone up. <hes> the rate of inflation is too high. Hi joe it's it's the food index for example is over two hundred and fifty two percent and <hes> the salaries are not rising. <hes> unemployment is high. <hes> shortages like you're saying you're saying at the beginning of your report. Also what is happening is that the opposition went to to protest. They want to extend to say the government should do something. The cost of living is just too high. People cannot live anymore now. These are problems which many had hoped would be solved with the removal of robert mugabe because what you described there is something that resonates nights with the mugabe shing but things haven't changed <laughter>. Yes surprisingly even though you know <hes> some say say the european union essay zimabwe's on the right trick <hes> the indonesia now our financial organization as like the world bank they think the reforms are right but authority measures are biting deep on the ordinary people <hes> and the use of the u._s. Dollar for example mboya was <hes> very very cruel on the local population because they don't and u._s. Told us if indeed they are now using zimbabwe cuttings. Even this is not available long queues at the bank and cannot buy a lot at the moment and how has this come about because the government's economic measures <hes> have not had their safety net for the poor so what we have ah instead of <hes> <hes> ameliorating the poverty we have a situation where reforms actually exacerbating poverty not specially in urban areas among the working class so the government with oil intentions is not at the moment you know i am or to institute reforms that have made life better for the people for for those of us all the changes in zimbabwe nearly two years ago so now it is one of the sites that you you really wish had not happened. How has it been allowed to happen like this. I know this <hes> some people report was saying mugabe was better thing life has always better in the past but <hes> what happened is <hes> mugabe was forced to resign by the military's you know oy and <hes> but what we have had that quantity of his is kind of <hes> government because the people why right now in charge way waking with gubbay before the ads trying to institute a different model of governance but <hes> the main kind kind of <hes> structures remain <hes> so for example the new minister of finance is trying to push for <hes> very nearly borough reforms uh-huh but at the same time you have the bank which was used to more centralistic economic policies command kind of style <hes> you know <hes> of for <hes> reforms where they give money to agriculture they give handouts. Some of these things are continuing along side. You know the more kind of <hes> ah nearly berar reforms that the minister of finances introduced so we have a bit of contradictions in my view. Should they be a strike. Yes people should be allowed to protest and register their you know frustration at lack of progress but <hes> the opposition should also think of alternatives. I think the m._p.'s for example should've <hes> <hes> y in parliament enjoying benefits should have taken their more fem tend to within parliament and also just dead displeasure at the moment. They've got like free diplomatic passports. They've got picks free cars and all uh-huh and they their lifestyles don't seem to be quite. It's quite hard to feel massively in opposition where people keep giving you nice things to make life easier. What what happens now. Then i mean you you say the opposition should take a stand <hes> but how does it go about doing that. In order to solve what appears to be a worse problem than ever in zimbabwe because what we have is a governance problem we should have <hes> in the past and mocking chunkier dialogue between <hes> the key parties and in two thousand nine this resulted in a more progressive kind of governance which i didn't impact on economics at the moment we have is standoff between the ruling party and the main opposition party and this is having a detrimental effect on the economic <hes> <hes> you know side we they should fix the politics. They should talk to each other next door in mozambique. We have seen the ruling party impressed with the opposition in kenya. We have seen the same in zimbabwe. We should not have a situation where we have <hes> polarized politics. That is <hes> ah repatriation on the economics winston. I thank you very much indeed for joining us on monocle twenty four uh-huh uh last week the united states saw to mass shootings wanted al paso texas and another in dayton ohio happening in less than searching <music> hours apart the attacks renewed calls for gun control and tougher legislation but manifesto left behind by one of the shooters in which he reference marched attack in christ's church new zealand reignited a conversation about domestic terrorism in the united states and white supremacy heather williams is a senior policy research the rand corporation and she's also an associate director within the homeland security operational analysis center bottles acting bureau chief in los angeles collado rabelo met. I have to talk about the current legislation for domestic terrorism and what trends are emerging. This is not a a new discussion to some extent though i think that the shootings as last week have reinvigorated the conversation and maybe made it a little bit more prominent beyond just the scholars who look at this of what do we define as domestic terrorism resume. Are we defining it appropriately. Do we have the right statutory authorities in place with domestic terrorism compared to foreign terrorism which has been the emphasis of united states law enforcement since the nine eleven attacks and so it would be a crime intended to intimidate or coerce a population that cause harm harm or intended to influence policy of the government one of the big differences with the way that the united states treats domestic terrorism versus foreign terrorism is that we classify safai specific groups as terrorist groups if they are foreign and we do not classify any groups as domestic terrorist groups there are also different laws in terms of supporting those groups so if you support any group that is designated as a foreign terrorist organization and that support could be simply saying you want to join join that group that you want to go become a fighter for them that becomes an illegal act that you can be charged with because there aren't paralleled domestic terrorist groups the same laws. Let's don't apply in the case of domestic terrorism so there may be different things which there are legal recourse for connected to foreign terrorism versus domestic terrorism no it's interesting thing that you mentioned the difference between domestic and foreign terrorism because one of the links at has emerged from last week for one of the shooter's was is this manifesto that he left behind where he referenced attacks that had happened abroad mainly the one in christ church as kind of inspiration. Do we see usually lia direct link would attack had happened elsewhere in the world with the i guess the rising trend here in the u._s. As you're actually hitting on a really important point and one of the points of debate about this question of domestic terrorism should we be considering this only domestic terrorism if we see more connections <hes> with for example right wing or racially motivated terrorist abroad if they're talking to each other when that then become foreign associated terrorism and the internet has allowed more of these individuals to to find find like minded individuals even across borders. I think we don't fully understand those relationships yet. Those dynamics how much this movement movement is feeding itself internationally and between countries but do you feel there is a rise in domestic extremism i guess or is it a just a trend that were more aware of now. That's a very critical question. It's one were actually starting research on right now to try to understand whether there is one <hes> empirically or does it just feel that way as it gets captured more by the new cycles and if there is one is this original or is there some sort of cyclical aspect to to this type type of violence and we just don't know that yet a lot of the the data is very limited. We have a problem in the u._s. In that there is not as much transparency as what gets labeled domestic domestic terrorism even in the investigations by federal authorities and so it's hard to know what the trend is and how many cases there have been over time. There's been a lot of focus on the term white supremacy and not saying out to right wing extremism is a nutrient by all means is not but there's has been this resurgence of it in terms of at least public awareness that it is saying and being in public forums be it's the news or you know on social media yeah people discussing if this is actually something that's happening. White supremacy motivated attacks violence has certainly been prevalent. My suspicion is that there has been an increase over the last few years though as i said there there isn't good data to to support that yet and that's something we want to see whether we can prove or disprove that hypothesis i mean i i do have concerns that some of the space for what is acceptable speech is opening up in a way that lends itself to more more hostile speech being socially acceptable and therefore the extreme you know seeming more normalized and kind of expanding that that boundary foundry as to what is extreme versus. What is the the acceptable middle so i do think that that we see also new forums online nine that allow for the speech be propagated a lot more and for there to be more of it present i mean there is not there's more that the government could be doing to try at a counter this speech or to put out a positive speech that tries to flat out a little bit the negative speech that is out there and make it clear at this actually is more of an extreme minority position as opposed to any kind of a mainstream williams of the rand corporation. They're speaking to our los angeles acting borough chief. Call it a rebel. Let's continue with today's newspapers in the studios. Lewis foreign jones news reader for the bbc in london very warm. Welcome back hello at tell us what what you found in the papers today so we'll start with the f. t. but lots of papers have this story the headline in page for israel blocks visit by two muslim u._s. Politicians on this is the story. That's been quite popular israel bar to muslim u._s. Congresswoman woman from a planned visit to east jerusalem annual <hes> west bank rashid leap and allow omar on this just a couple of extraordinary things about out this <hes> the first one is the israeli law which they've used to do this which basically they can ban visitors including jewish people who supports a movement mm to boycott israeli products and companies until it ends the occupation of the west bank and it was criticized a couple years ago when it was introduced as a liberal tam acrostic but anyway eight that law is up and running and working from the israeli point of view. The second amazing thing about this story is obviously the role of donald trump who has called for israel to bar to u._s. <hes> congresswoman <hes> which is extraordinary in the tweet he says has they hate israel and all jewish people so just say again. Trump says these to hate all jewish people and it would show great weakness. If israel allowed these two <hes> congresswoman into the country <hes> nothing that can be demonstrated to change their minds. They are a disgrace extruded was completely taken aback when i read this on a new strategically. It's interesting because you know as just extra. The president is of the u._s. Would say this about <hes> is own citizens anywhere but it's part of this master plan which is a constant debate with the trump presidency. Is there a master strategic plan behind this all all is it all just spontaneous tweeting but on this occasion it does seem that trump wants the democrats to fall in behind these congresswoman. I'll stay loyal. Democrats and trump sees vantage because he can then sell the democrats as a radical party which he sees these these democrats as <hes> come the twenty twenty election so if the more they all stand together the more donald trump can characterize it as us versus them. I'm hope that people vote for him. In twenty twenty tell us a bit more about the role of <hes> of what the americans have tried to do here. I mean there was there was a great peace. Plan that <hes> lasted talks about ten minutes months ago. Yeah it's difficult to see jared kushner being in charge of his master plan and in terms terms of master planning we haven't seen very much of it that have been conferences that have been <hes> essentially think ins to use a kind of very <hes> pumpers word where where people come and try and exchange ideas and profiles but the problem is that the palestinians have constantly felt excluded from all these kind of events that doesn't seem to be any kind of substantial dialogue <hes> within many circles the the plan and the administration's plan is essentially a non plan <hes> on a non starter right now. Let's move on to the times <hes> again an astonishing story about hallway helping african regimes or powis. Donna shing really did yeah well. It's incredible well. I know it is remarkable. The wall street journal's investigation which has been picked up by lots of other <hes> papers including the times here in london hallway helped african african governments to spy on political opponents by hacking into their emails and social media accounts which if true is quite extraordinary the example john pull at the wall street journal <hes> gave with bobby wine at dinner him he's in a formal pops is now an opposition politician in uganda standing against seventy <hes> it's become president and they apparently hallway helped <hes> the government by hacking accessing <hes> his whatsapp doc messages and stopped his plan to organize rallies and arresting him <hes> on the also citing sample of the zambian government getting help from hallway to access phones and facebook accounts and stuff pinpointed the locations of the bloggers who were arrested now. If that is true that is extraordinary <hes> but i do need to say there have been flat out denials by while who dismissed this reporting by the wall street journal <hes> say that it's absolutely not true it's confounded and inaccurate <hes> the wall street journal standing by hits potent because it had white in the last couple of months seemed to have been coming back came from the colds just a tiny little bit there had been the it appeared on the banned list of of the united states and then others is ongoing issue with the hallway executive tip being arrested in canada but many people are beginning to possibly acknowledged the commercial realities of trying to stop the commercial realities are is that it's building five g. infrastructure and its equipment is considered to be more advanced than lots of other of its competitors and you're right while we tried to have an image change <hes> <hes> it has just opened up. It's <hes> pla factories headquarters. <hes> to western journalists jellison sky news went in there to do some reporting to try and open up its transparency but this report from wall street journal won't help that image at all. Let's move to british domestic politics. Yes heading. I think the daily telegraph which is always a joy will normally have rule of just not talking about brexit of kept it for months and months and months but just very quickly because this is quite an interesting development development we know obviously <hes> about corbin his new plan to topple prime minister <hes> writing an open letter saying that he will come in and be a temporary caretaker managers to block no deal <hes> brexit now what's interesting here in the daily telegraph is saying that actually four conservative -servative m._p.'s have said okay well. That's an interesting idea. <hes> let's meet and talk about sir which again in the big picture if you take a step step back. That is an amazing thing. You have four conservative m._p. Saying yep we may work to bring down boris johnson our own conservative government and put in a very left of center into <hes> opposition and pe- as our prime minister amazing state of affairs and there are a couple of caveats here dame caroline has one of the m._p.'s did i'd say i couldn't support a corp in government so she's prepared to go talk to jeremy corbyn talked to opposition parties but not at she support at the main idea of the plan which is to put jeremy corbett in power which is a seeming that jeremy kuban would actually be inefficient ineffective temporary leader who would stop a no deal brexit because we haven't had any suggestion and that might be the case until now even bigger problem if he could command the the confidence of the house which is the suggestion made by the lib dem's that he just probably couldn't you <hes> even if everyone dave the lib dem's did support him. Even that wouldn't be enough to re rebels talks you come out and support him and that's why other people are talking about slightly more sophisticated plans things light well. Why don't we stand behind the more neutral candidate a ken clark who's a tory harriet harman whose labor as temporary stopgap to try and stop aw this is interesting because some had been suggesting that the the conservatives were banking on there being disarray and then that would allow the no deal brexit to go through because none of those opposed to know dill brexit could actually get there together and agree on anything the fact that we are now gathering offering people from quite remote edges of the political sphere coming together. Does that suggest that we might be seeing a fight on our hands in the next couple of months. That's exactly exactly why. I broke my rule to talk about it today because it's been staggeringly long time where the opposition just hasn't come together as you say. That's exactly what's been remarkable walkable about this. You do have a consensus all them peas who don't want odio brexit but they simply haven't been able to mobilize or organize themselves. This is the first i real concrete plan of archie people committing publicly at least to talk to each other but even then it still seems a bit unlikely bit shambolic at the moment sousse food jones. Thank you very much indeed joining us own multiple twenty full. You're listening to the globalist u._b._s. Global financial services firm with over one hundred and fifty years of heritage built on the unique dedication of our people we bring fresh thinking in perspective to our work and we know that it takes a marriage of intelligence legends and heart to create lasting value for clinton's. It's about having the right ideas of course but was about having one of the most accomplished systems and unrivalled network of global experts. That's why at u._b._s. We pride ourselves on thinking smarter to make a real difference <unk> tune in weekly to the bulletin with u._b._s. for all the latest insights and opinions from u._b._s. and experts from around the world and now tell me that you've never had a favorite song that you've listened to non stop during the holidays well this monocle twenty four cult helped correspondent fernanda august sheku has decided to look at what's topping the charts this season around the world his fernandez shaken a delightful beat the summer which which includes a song called bananas summer is the season where you are allowed to freer and just that little bit sillier with your music taste. It's the season aware sending facing drinking hand. You don't mind getting down to choon code banana north. We'll get to that later for my cut to a city. There's no the short of summer songs me talk but which are dominating the charts this year in the u._s. Only story worth noting is that of the record breaking old town road by rapper luna's louis x a remix edit versus by billy ray cyrus has become a phenomenon bonham on a third in this country rap bangor has been a worldwide success ordinations have had their own homegrown hits in germany where summer used to be for dance hits hip hop is dominating and capito bra born in chile siberia is king is the most popular german artist ever one one of the songs he released this year cherry lady complete with x rated video sampled the deliciously cheesy bit of cherry cherry lady by eighties. This german duo modern talking chevy cruz was on this certifies but his latest number one to lead fill much more serious. He collaborated with fellow artists sarah to create something. That's more like gangster rap. I let's cut in israel things. Is there a bit cheerier. The beach clubs of tel-aviv a reverberating with the biggest song of the summer but not a not bananas in hebrew. The track is enormously popular. Israeli do ban altuva lori and static and was inspired by african rhythms. They even showed awards how kuna matata two in the middle of the song the kitch- lion king asked track well timed to coincide quayside with the release of the disney film is certainly catchy and continues to do tradition of looking to different countries in two thousand seventeen for instance they brazil inspired song to bone broke records in israel talk talk. All the brazilian embassy in israel even invited the duo to attend ceremony in their honor. They have also pay tribute to india with nama stay. They know me tell me when it comes to the summer charts. People's concerns about coach appropriation seemed to be temporarily suspended. Thank god elsewhere spain his crown. The new homegrown superstar in the form of rosalia who topped the spanish singles chart for six weeks with con el tutor which was also. I runaway runaway success across latin america in italy. Meanwhile had its own african themed summer hit a song co jumble the choon by takashi and catra only enthusi- ferrari has lyrics in thailand english and swahili an eleven native diva yara has everyone dancing to the sound of show bardo the video for which features the pop star driving a cab and singing along with her amused passengers. If nothing described so far sounds like the one hit wonder for you why not head to georgia here hollowed is singing about the delights of soft soft drinks in coca cola zero. I'm cherishing all this summary northern hemisphere delights because in my home country of brazil which is currently in the grip of winter. The chart has been dominated for weeks by a song called. Everyone will suffer. It's it's a ballot about you. Guess it romantic disillusionment. Something like that would never happening simmer for monaco. I'm feeling understood by chieko. Thank thank you faye. You can read his essay on the second edition of the multiple summer weekly which is out now. It's it's time to talk technology. I'm delighted to say david phelan whose molecules tech correspondent joins being this t._j. Now welcome back david. Thank you almost fresh off the plane from china ryan. We'll come to qualify in a little while <hes> but i pour apple. It used to be the company that could not let anything out into the public. No longer that's right and in recent years all it had to be able to keep secret is things that to do with it software once you're making a phone in the millions ali-aliens than in it's in the <hes> the production lines then leaks out but the software while that stays inside apple park and cupertino known gets. It's to hold it except they've put a screen shot in the latest beata version of their software. That's going to launch in september. <hes> <hes> for the iphone and i wonder if it was deliberate. Almost it is a screen shot which shows <hes> just the apps on the app screen but there are two apps in a iphone the water they called dynamic apps that show different things everyday the calendar and the the clock which shows the actual live time on the app icon and the date in the screen shot screen shot is called hold for release which is going to invite anyone. Who's got the beat peter anyone to open this picture. <hes> it has the date of the tenth of september which has long been rumored to be the day that apple will announce its next the next iphone so this <hes> certainly as far as the the <hes> those who like these kind of reading the ruins are concerned confirms that september tenth will be the day that the new iphone is launched so tell us about what might be behind this new <hes> reconfiguration of anything to do with the calendar highlander then well the because that calendar icon shows was the current date then that is and hope for release means that something is going to happen on the tenth <hes> the only thing really that is possibly in the calendar for apple is is going to be the revealing of the new phone interestingly interestingly. This screen shot has a big notch out of the top of it like the current iphone. Does there was a rumor that the that notch might get much smaller this year. Well not according according to this screen shot. This would be happening next yes. Do we have any more details about the iphone we have so many three callen cameras on the back that could stove top cameras because they've got very big lenses on them. <hes> there's going to be a two cameras on the the entry level. We now think it's going it'd be called the iphone pro or the iphone eleven pro and the iphone eleven pro max <hes> so the the there isn't very much left to be revealed about these iphones. Does everyone feel about this now because i was that sense of excitement and now that it spoils christmas a bit exactly i don't know that those exact words being spoken in cupertino but phil schiller the senior executive <hes> always says that the way we sell things is we build the excitement reveal and then they go on sal and people can <hes> by and this of course diminishes it <hes> completely right okay. Let's move on to something pulled a google nest. What's that well. <hes> nest it used to be called was part of google but it's now google nest and it's the <hes> i'm very intelligent agent home appliances such security cameras smart thermostat smoke alarms and so on and when google nest was created from google saying we're gonna and cool nest google news <hes> there were issues about security. There was a a data got out. They asked everyone to change their passwords and and <hes> to add two factor authentication so you get center a taste message on your phone. You're trying to change anything now. They're saying for complete transparency when your all security camera is on it will have a green light. Will it does already but mom you condemn. It till switched off for example. If it's in your bedroom and you don't glaring you can't do that anymore. That's going to change every user is getting an email of the next few days to say this and <hes> a lot of them are really fed up with it because it means that a feature of a product they have already board ought is being removed. If you have one user message to say this is now useless as a covert <hes> security camera it merely draws the burglars attention to it so the first thing they do exactly <hes> and and indeed is even gonna flash flash when someone is watching video from <hes> remotely so there's no question that the you know what's going on in certain situations like this is the possibility that google nest could up to backtrack on this is genuinely going to happen because as you say it it seems rather unfair to take away something that people might have actually bought the google that exact very reason that that's right and it it is a little bit ironically given the the nature of the cabinet is a bit big brotherish to be suddenly saying. We're not we're going to take this. <hes> we going to reach into your home and take away this this facility so i will go ahead with it though because they they want to be transparent apparent and they they want to say <hes> the that everything they do is above board right okay. Let's move onto our way. You your fresh back from china. What's what's happening with hallway. Well <hes> quite a lot. I went to the developer's conference where they announced this new operating software called harmony which they would very bullish about it can be put on any kind of device that going to put on a smart watch. They're going to put their working. Driverless cars again pushed in that <hes> they can be in internet of things <hes> smart devices the the one thing that not going to put in for now is smartphones <hes> because they use android but if the issues with trump continue and it reaches a climax on sunday because they've only got an extension to have the licensed trade with quarry american companies that is <hes> until monday <hes> if they don't get an extension to to that then why we say they can put the new software harmony as on their phones <hes> that the next time it comes out is the way made thirty expected in in september <hes>. I'm that will have the new software on it. How much is the tuning in throwing between donald trump and <hes> xi jinping actually affecting affecting hawaii's ability to do business. Was there any talk of that. When you there yes definitely they said that if it had not been for the current situation they would have had a chance counts of being the number one smartphone manufacturer in the world behind samsung some distance behind but they would careering towards <hes> number one place and then soon as in may the issues arose and they were put on the entity list <hes> sales kind of slowed down dramatically <hes> they may change look very briefly. What what we know how worried aqua about this. They are pretty open. They say if we can't use android we will have one to two difficult years years but we will get through it and we will <hes> how many arrests will become the new defacto software through my boyfriend's david. Many thanks for joining us here. The globalist live on twenty four. You may already be a subscriber to the monocle. Minute are essential daily mail out of the top stories in in global affairs business culture and more but from this week you can listen to it as well starting this week. We have a new audio version of the monocle minutes. It's been arriving daily at six clock six a._m. London time the second edition of which should now be with you your subscribers or for today's edition monocle senior editor robert bound is looking at the auto filling time somewhat ironically on air and specifically during the cricket his rope with more here in the long room moments minutes away from the start of this second test match the straight up winning the toll north london around lord's cricket ground. The weather forecast is grin. When these dog days of summer get wet it means that the crickets off and the resting teams play cards do press ups maybe even chat for there's a smartphone amnesty in the dressing room to avoid distraction but for the commentators on radio and less so on tv. There are no such diversions from the job at hand. There may be no play on the pitch but the show show must go on from ten thirty a._m. Until seven o'clock in the evening the commentators summarizes experts and guests on bbc radio's test match special we'll look out at a wet field of grass and phil phil phil phil all day long. They'll talk about the rain pats the quality wetness and depth of it the likelihood of play that our than the hour afterward then they'll chat about the tire of some of the luckiest spectators who've yet vacate their soviet seats and how they are avoiding perhaps perhaps pleurisy then the place olde interviews with great players then if they're lucky it'll be lunch afterwards the cabin fever and chablis may mean that they'll talk about dogs wchs paper cuts scaffolding pastor then they'll start on statistics how many matches or series of actually being improved by rain what sort of captains come into their own tactically in straitened circumstances then the famous baking posted to the commentary box. The cakes funny shakes the sponges sprung from suggestive modes phil phil phil all day long who matron radio commentary is a great skill to say what you see so that those that can't almost i can but it's some sort of genius of able to spend an afternoon enlightening patient millions with wanderings on tree surgery pigs lucky socks bunkers in 'cause i can hear another shower the window now is the time to tune in for monaco. I'm robert thank you and you can access the monocle minute from our website or downloaded as a podcast at monaco dot com slash minute to find out more and stay. I tuned the full edition of the minute follows program. That's all we have time for today's edition of the globalist many thanks to our producer tom home page reynolds are such louis allen studio manager kenya scarlet with editing assistance for miles plumps and to our studio guests to music in just a moment and the briefing returns live at midday in london clay bristow bristow play blister turns at the same time on monday but for now from me emma nelson goodbye. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend.
TechFan 426 - Shut Up Echo
"You're listening to another great podcast in the my neck podcasting network Tech Fan podcast number four hundred twenty six. I'm Tim Robertson David Cone and here we are. We made it. We made it despite. This'll be apocalypse. It's kind of ridiculous. They just Announced yesterday last night that they cancelled school here in Michigan for three weeks because craw virus outbreak and it. That's all social. Media is now hundred percent and it's kind of tiring the difficulty is is that there's not much new information coming out. I know information so yeah and I. It must be strange for you. Sti- speaking you don't really have a national responses this regional. This is at the state level of belie- because you'll national response just seem sabet tae blah blah blah is not so bad or you know it's it's it's it's a joke. Yeah I'll be got to be honest with the the whole banning the banning the flights from the accept full except for the UK and Olive. Some reason then golf courses courses in both this and then and then. American citizens can come home because presumably. You're already into it I don't I don't get it really really does get it and nobody does I. Well I think it was just basically a just screw you to the eight year which made fun of Donald Trump. When he was there they laughed at him and now he's upset about it and I know this is supposed to be about politics folks but come on. This is why we love to him. Well you know I laugh at him. I think he's yeah. You know if I lose listeners for this I don't give a crap. We try to avoid politics. But I think this guy is a buffoon I mean you know when you have a national crisis like the world like an epidemic and he takes the actions that he did it and they have to rush to correct all. Wait a minute he. He was talking about Merchandise yeah he did say merchandise. He said goods and services and became an idiot. I I'm dumbfounded. And there's people social media saying thank God we have trump is president right now and I'm like Oh my God I can. We target the crow viruses. Certain people the possible. Well I did. I did see something on the on the week and they said maybe take these anti vaccines and send them to China now to prove whether theory not in the the real thing is that we don't we don't really know what will have a because this thing is new and things can change things can go sideways. It can affect different people different ways at the moment. It seems like it's again unless you're in certain. Risk groups is relatively benign. But everyone's trying to avoid everyone getting it at once because we all know. Health Systems called cope with that stripe. So that's what it's all about but we doing everything we would normally do not going into the office as much going on Anita to. I'm fortunate that I'm able to work at home. An awful lot and do a lot of my client went from high end because technology. That's kind of the blessing of the world. We live in this blessing and a curse. We have social media. We have a lot of debate online and we have a lot of false messaging in panic and that sort of thing which is instantly to everyone through their phones but at the same time we have a very good way of you know kind of living in a way without necessarily needs to do things your escape because most people get paid electronically now so you don't have to worry about going door to get a physical paycheck and going to the bank and cashing in on money. Itself is spread disease. Because it's the thing he probably at the touch it. It's a technologies both good and bad no question but you were asking before we are recording about apple encouraging employees to work from home he said could you can. You can actually do that and I would say. Of course they can especially the coders and stuff like that but they could probably get more done at home because they don't have to go the stupid meetings all the time. Plus you get probably an extra off die because you know commuting plus you probably work in. You know half the time you would if you're at work because you're not you're focused on your home you just get it done with so. I don't know for me no. I can't really work from home And I've had people ask me is affecting car sales not yet in fact. I've got a bunch of appointments tomorrow but it could who knows. I don't know it shouldn't but you know at the end of the day some people are GonNa take these warnings to the extreme and go too far the other way. Yeah like it's the end of the world and you just WanNa go. Just relax hippy. It's wash your hands you know. Don't take stupid chances and this carry on. Let's stop buying Apollo stupid toilet paper so yeah so as point against you before. We started out as a respect tree disease. That's like it's not really. It is like the flu. But it's not really. The flu is different type of ours is like a call like a really bad cold. It boggles my mind that everyone's buying up toilet papering in pretty much. Every pitchy sale line on social media had T- toilet paper shelves in supermarkets right next week as the tissues which us when you have a cold is always plenty of them and I'm thinking they find tissues because economy that you have a cold. It's just one of those things. The the stupidity level is at an all time high and really nothing we can do about it except keep podcasting speaking podcasting technology. I sent you a link to something that I got the other day on Amazon. It's one of my freebies that I get on Amazon. I don't know if you've ever seen one of these David. Do you find the link. I HAVE THE LINK. So it's a nine point six cents inch mirror for your car so it's a rear view. Mirror Mirror itself but it's also a video screen. It's got a forward facing camera that actually slides out so you can clear the mirror that you're clipping too so this doesn't replace your mirror it kind of straps onto the front of it or I guess the back if you know depending how you're looking at it And then it also supports a backup camera. So I've got it rigged in my car right now with wires. This kind of everywhere. There's really only two wires. One from the cigarette lighter adapter twelve adapter plugging into it too has power and then another wire. Going to the back of the sequoia for the backup camera. That's just it's up to high than where it's supposed to be but it's fine I got it. It's ninety dollars right. I got it because I thought I always kind of wanted to Dash Cam and remember. I bought that one off of wish. You remember that it was terrible. It didn't work at all but with this one. I thought you know what this is on Amazon. As seems like a nice one extreme is a streaming media it's not streaming It's ten eighty P or seven twenty. So I've got you know. All the settings turned on. It actually will look at the lanes on the road and beep if they should going out of the lane and it keeps. I had turned that off because it kept thinking. I'm going out of my lane. I'm like I'm not I'm fine But for the Front Camera. Now if you just there's a power button underneath this thing that C could turn it on and off and when you turn it on or off your turning off the video screen not a just a mirror so I'm just trying to figure out because it's not very clear from the pictures here and so we is a mirror because every picture they show episode showing a screen showing. What's in front of you? Which on of redundant right. Because you're looking for looking in front of me up so if you don't actually turn it on it automatically just starts recording and it's just a mirror right so if you tap the glass the screen it turns on you could also turn it on and off with the button underneath right so if you just tap it there. It's it's showing you what screen saying and I was confused at first because every time I tapped it. It wasn't recording for more than a minute or so and I'm like is it turning itself on and off what's going on but what happens is it's constantly recording but you have the ability to go to One two or three minute clips so at the end of three minutes or two or one. Minute IS STOP RECORDING IMMEDIATELY. Starts another one right so if you're in an accident or something it's it's hundreds a little clips on their sister like like three. Stran- final hemmed exactly okay. So that that was Kinda cool End Records about the front and back so even though you're not in reverse for instance it's still picking up that video feed in. Its recording it now. I didn't Hook up the backup camera to my reverse light so when I put my car in verse. It doesn't automatically switch to the backup camera. That's fine I I can wire like that. That would take another half hour's worth of work which is about the extent that I've got into installing this camera to begin with and I I might do it. I don't know have have made up my mind yet but as you're driving if you sweep are swipe to the left or the right and actually activates the backup camera so you can actually see behind you that camera as you're driving and that's kind of He gets it. Gives me a little bit of queasiness when I look at that? But whatever records. Don't be looking at a different angle isn't it? Yeah My biggest gripe with it to be honest is it uses these rubber things to connect the mirror and very secure. It doesn't feel like it's GonNa fall down or anything but unlike the actual review mirror this thing has a little bit of a shake to it because it's not ask cure and as an actual mirror it kind of doesn't work where you could see the everything behind you but everything's slightly. Gigli a little bit just enough. That kind of bothers me but when I took out because this comes with a thirty two GIG microscopy cam a memory. I took that out. Put it in my Mac and looked at some footage and it's really good. Yeah yeah it was really even in low light it the Front Cam. The back camera doesn't do crap for back offer light but the front camera. The Dash Cam itself did an excellent job of recording even on a dark road. In fact I could see better in the footage that I can see in person. Yeah so it's IT'S. It's actually kind of impressive to be honest with you. The you know you can set the time and the date You can tell it to lock a clip into place in case something happens and you don't want that won a race. You can lock that clip. You could take a picture and you can turn on and off the microphone. So by Default. The microphones off. Because that's GonNa take more storage but you could turn on the microphone and record audio if you want as well so somebody doesn't sound like they're happy the background with some kids playing outside and I think I think she's just taking his Skew troughing back now so well. That's good they'll teach them. Yeah yeah so I don't know. Is this something that's interesting to you. Well there's a couple of things a couple of questions I have and then and then I can probably pulse vessel houses power. Do you have to run a cable? Dance your yes. Yeah Yup I know it comes with it comes to different power cables. One is a twelve volt. Adapter cigarette lighter after fail. The other you can in its very long cabling the other one you can wire directly into your fusebox Ryan it comes with the fuses to so of course you wouldn't want the thing dangling down in front of you like that would run and hide it in your trimmed down to the fuse box. So you'd have a very small cable coming out of the top to your trim level so in that regard. It's not a big deal at all and can you? Could you take your mirror off actually? Replace it with this. No because there's no mechanism for this to connect directly to your glass Russell if you look at your every mirror it's got that little thing that's actually connected and that's what you're American next to that mechanism doesn't exist. They assume and I think rightly so to be honest. That if you're going to be using this you don't want to rip your other mirror off. You just WANNA clip this two year mirror now. Could you get yeah? I think he probably could but I think it would probably be you know. I don't know I probably wouldn't want to do that. Yeah I I. It's just if you did that. That was so that would eliminate the shake shake. Which is is is really. I don't know my feeling that having the big screen. I'm not sure it's that great advantage. You know because most of the time he wanted to be a mirror and so. It's a worst mirror than regular mirror. I it is. The glass itself is not to the level of almost any OEM. And in fact. When when I'm just sitting there looking at what's behind me. I almost get a little bit of a rippling effect when I moved my head up and down so I know that the glass itself isn't that high of quality. Well Yeah not only that. It doesn't have the the civil service on the back of a mirror dose of it just doesn't reflect as well as a real miracles because it has a screen in that and so what. I'm wondering does a pretty good job. I will say that. Okay but what? I'm wondering is walk. One of volunteers this really offers. I've having just a regular dash cams now that kind of a lot will will kind of suction up to your an windscreen at the top new Humira as a pretty good place to put them. I'll just wondering what advantage a small Dash Cam. Well this gives you ever having just a small camera the Salt Bay. I think it's because two things number one. It is taking up the same space currently occupied by your mirror. So you're not sacrificing even more window space number one number two is I think you do Kinda WanNa look at occasionally in the car the screen. What it seeing and on those tiny little Dash Cam. You can't really do that very well. Yeah so I I would say I would rather have this than a standalone Dash Cam plus this incorporates. Both front and rear facing cameras at the same time and you can switch between them and anytime you want and it's recording the backup and the front camera at the same time so a aunt she comes with the camera. Yes okay it comes with the cameras. Needs a why exactly what he wants. It's just one long cable with one cable coming off of it to wire directly to your reverse light so when that when that light gets power it automatically switches this mirror or camera few on screen to whatever the backup camera saying all right and you put the backup camera. You would mount it in your rear windscreen or reward it. You can put it outside the car. That's where it's supposed to be. I've actually got it higher up at the top of my my hatch and I've actually just got a taped up there right now. I didn't WanNA drill holes or anything. Well that's the thing if you WanNa if you WANNA outside your car then you divide the need to exclude. We all know and Mike whole threaten somebody and then you go y. Go to worry about Walter and changing and Miami. Yeah but that's easy you just put a silicon and then you'd be fine. I mean people saw backup cameras all the time and cars so I look and I would almost guarantee you almost every has an area that you could remove screwed and saw this in there too. Yeah so but if you already have a backup camera you can interface this to your existing camera. Yes No. That's unfortunate. Yeah I agree with you. And that's why it's kind of an optional thing. You don't have to connect the backup camera. So He's my question to you as a car salesman these these ninety dollars. What the Hell is this? Non Option on every car we've wasn't fitting so every a built in option like this would be much much better. Most 'cause nowadays have the backup cameras already. The backup camera isn't accessible. Unless you're actually in any car you can't be driving down the road and Tapa screen and see what your backup cameras bit. Yeah but if the if they manufacture was building it they could make it so we can do. That would be awesome and indycar exactly. I'm trying get to his. Why is this still fit policy accessories? Wina if they're not just common national building this into every call now older kinds of that would be a good idea older yummy. You wouldn't even need to do. Obviously this this going on the Mary. You wouldn't even need to do a lot of them he wanted. You just have the camera in the front somewhat bill into the most cameras have cloths modern calls. Certainly the year they have a little cluster up at the top where the Rivi mirrors where they they tend to. Yeah they tend to have cameras for the lane keeping and for you know. Sometimes they have emergency break sensors and all that sort of stuff. They put a camera in there. They have a screen because nowadays screen would they could just use the cameras that are already in there they just make the screen a put all you have to put a little St Card slotted and it will just record anything that camera. Saying I agree. I think that would be brilliant. I don't know why maybe somebody is doing that. We're you know some strange. A very low production audie or something. But but that's the point is I mean you were Toyota common factors in the world bogus? Now Yeah and and very very forward-looking and this seems to be sort of thing that they would go for and yet you're not hearing that this is coming on new model. It's the old. Yeah I think so too. I think this is I. Think Dash Cams are something that should be in any every car you if you're an issued reduce insurance rates because hey you just pull footage what happened Video doesn't lie although it does. I have a friend who Quite a few years ago. He bought Jack Uwe. He was in his mid Lacrosse. His car you know we all know that we saw Jaguars remember so he had A. He installed his own DASHCAM. He's quite techy likes to In fact she just sent me a link the other day saying Oh. I'm thinking treating myself to this. And it was like a a fifty five inch curved screen. That he's just going to put on his laptop home anyway but he had a dash cam on his jugular when he bought it. And this is one that actually runs the when the car is parked as a security thing and he He calls the Guy who one evening and accomplish decided he was going to take a low run up and then run over the top of his car decarlo damage and if he he basically he. Ibm they called the Guy. They positive police they. I mean the the local police took a look at it. All we know who that is and they went around him up and You know they that wouldn't have happened if you hadn't had that Cameron there so again so in with this one it turns itself off after a few seconds after the powers been. Cut some kind of a small capacitor in there. That's going to run. I think five seconds after loses power. Julie drove my sequoia this morning for the first time since I put this in there and the two time she turned it off said goodbye. She thought it was her phone. The first time the centralize it wasn't it was coming from the mirror. She goes car said goodbye to me and it does. I forget that but if I would wire directly to the battery for instance it would always have power it probably drain you bradberry. Pretty quick you feel car for a long time that running But it would continuously record When I was installing the backup camera as an example I plugged it in and through the camera and the court. Because it's just literally run from my roof your camera to the back of the vehicle. It's not hidden or anything Cole. Got Any yesterday. Morning is like what's this wire here for. And so as I was taping it up. I didn't realize it was recording the whole time because vehicles running and it wasn't until we were looking at the footage as test not last night but the night before that we watched me installing. The camera and Julia says see. You don't have any bald spots. I don't but I was doing weird thing with my tongue as I was taping this out there. I'm like that what I look like when work. That's terrible. The concentration town. We love is out of that. Yeah terrible it was. It was awful but yeah I mean it totally worked in. It's in ten eighty P in. I don't have any of the footage right now. My computer deleted it. But I'll send you some of the footage one of these days. Four K now for K. Eight K. And of course. I could put a larger memory card in there but I don't really see the point. The whole point of this really is if something did happen. I probably. It's going to be recorded. What am I going to be unplugging it so I don't lose any of that fudge and then transferring the video footage but I you know I kind like this thing though to be honest with you and I think the discussion of why don't manufacturers do. This is a completely valid point. Why don't they do Sutphin buddy out? There has any ideas let us know. I'm kind of curious because no-brainer. Yeah the manufacture warm would be four hundred fifty dollar option. What the hell some token too many his is my Acai. Let me just muted Clayton. Police say the tallest man on earth. Yet it's all his life. I don't want that because Amazon spying on you. Well these things are always spying on us. Yes we happy. Let the main so anyways. That's the camera. I'm going to go so far. I gotta say I'm going to give it a pretty good view. It's probably going to be a four out of five. It's not a five simply because of the shape of the camera and I'm going to look at addressing that hard plastic on the back of this touching the glass in the Mirror on my existing one rating or something rubber something in there. It will stop or maybe if you put some blades back on the backs of it's no I don't WanNa ruin my car's mayor by putting Gla- Tax Blue Tech Way true now. That's true but something that I could stick between the two and I think that's what's causing shaking And I it just dawned on me as I was saying that that that's probably what it's doing. It's too hard surfaces touching. Of course it's GonNa shake so if I put some I don't know something between the two it'll probably alleviate that problem one of the only bad thing really. It's really hard to get the straps on by the way and that by default because they're small straps and you've got to really stretch it the rubber. So they'll do it but it's not easy but you want secure so it's gotta be tight but getting the memory card out of the top of the mirror is kind of a pain in the ass because you you got a twist down. It's not easy and you can't really see it up there. It's too high up so that's kind of a pain. This tiny as well on my side. Tiny just I'm just looking at the The Amazon listing here. So it does not say here that this that if it detects something hitting your call when you Within food for twenty four hour period they will turn on and record. So I don't know. Does it have a battery in it while this was just hours? It's probably just got a really good capacitor in their own. Power for a while. So there you go. Gee Sensors This mayor has a dual dual. Dash Cam function with a g sensor. Hdr LOOP recording motion detection parking monitor. How PARKING MONITOR WORKSHOP? I think I think basically just has I've allies that go. Yeah Vallejo. Now Hang on a minute. Twelve twenty four hours a parking munching optional. See must have turned on and yeah and then the other thing is is yet with resin camera staring overlays but only wire to the backup. It doesn't do it right now and I don't see there's an option even turn that on so I think if it's wired and it probably intelligent enough to know that I just got power to the because it's this Then it gives me the. Yeah that makes sense so Yeah so far I gotta say though. I quite impressed with it. You know I would without using it. If I just looked at the listing. I would think this is some cheap Chinese thing and it's probably Jenky as hell but I gotta say I kind of impressed with a I really am. I mean this is. They're all much cheaper ones of this type of model up towards the end but but the thing is I'm like the branded ones that brandon. I three hundred dollars and this one hundred so but one hundred bucks for this. I think is actually a pretty price. I'm going to put a link in the show notes at Tech Fan. Podcast DOT COM DOT COM. So if this is something that you guys are interested in and Obviously the only one you've heard about is the one I'm talking about. You want to get it. Put a list in there and if you end up buying one let me know what you think. I'm definitely curious. I also it landed. I will having discussion just a couple of days gone together call. We saw somebody doing bad driving in and she said Oh we need to get dash cams fifty now. I have one free Chavez us. I used to have one in mind finished but when I bought a new car I didn't get ranch changing. So that's something I will do and then fit has as well. I see bad driving all the time but the two days I've had this installed the habits I'm like damn it. I mean it's instant youtube content. You know what I mean. I think I think we need to do that. Maybe the Rasberry Pines robotic so that you actually are able to target and fire paintball. Maybe make something if somebody's particularly bad driving using this. I'm done with that just tap and fire so sounds like a kick starter. Happen will possibly go wrong. Nothing Wellspring speaking of what cannot go wrong. Obviously it's been a couple of weeks since we've done a tech fan and one of the actually. This is about a month ago but let's talk about The day after Motorola launched their folding screen. Which now this is one instead of. It's a clam. Shell phone so it's an old one and it's it's all screen they calling it the Raisa because it's La- original cause like a star trek communicator. The idea yes. So the screen the falls in the middle. But yes you're right. There's no Cape Cod and separate screen. The whole thing is one sheet of glasses. This is the one that actually has flexible gloss on it I don't think so. No I think this is a. I know that Samsung of on another one. That's like this and I think that has flexible gloss allegedly but Yes the problem with this. Is that Already failing within a day thought that they would have learned from Samsung bad launch if the the fold the Samsung fold. Where the thing with Brice it was broken by reviewers less than twenty four hours and sure enough. This is a sign and this because because of the way it has a hint system. That's different than the Samsung fold But people saw stress testing and found that within a relatively small number. Foles about twenty. Seven Thousand Muffing Gossiping here. It stops working also as well. Apparently it's quite easy to get your fingernail Underneath the screen when you are halfway through closing the phone because obviously as as it closes anybody's ever folded anything stiff of thin card or a piece of Sandy Lloyd. Something like that. You know it kind of bulges outs and apparently it creates a gap underneath that you can get your finger under and then if you catch your finger under there and then you run the risk of damaging the screen as well I I. I don't I while we've said before we don't get this these products. I sent you that picture from a couple of weeks ago where I went into the Samsung. So he mentioned your galaxy fold there and it was in a box gloss box so people. I mentioned that I take off. Anybody wants to look at. It was in the Navy was fully flat and Soon as you kind of got the light on the front you could see the bulge where basically has been Affleck's where the screens be folded in closed. And you're looking at. I mean it looked Yankee just looking at it but you could tell us well. If you run your finger of that you're gonNA feel it and wants to spend fifteen hundred pounds on the device that feels like a child's toy which is what he's GonNa do plastic screens of the things. You Find in child's Toys. I think Microsoft has it one hundred percent right where it's not one. Continuous screen is to glass screens. That is that's the way you want to do it. If if apple over makes one of these and I don't know if they well it doesn't feel like it's an apples. Dna to do this. But if they do I guarantee you. It's not going to be one continuous screen. Or they're gonNA use some kind of a tricky to make it look like there is but there is a glass because these plastic screens. Just turn a number one. It's a terrible user experience that have to touch a plastic screen. Yeah I think think back to your pocket things. What the Palms those are terrible screens. Assistive lie Islam that fast. They're not they're not nice to touch not So the and that's what we're talking about here. Better technology sure but still a terrible user experience now. Smooth harding hardened glass. Sure we like that in fact when people have their phone to use at work and it happens all the time when I'm connecting the phone and stuff like that to their new cars at. They've got one of the screen protectors on. It feels like crap if cheapened Janke compared to what my phone field psych and I understand why the mentality behind it but it's not needed people you don't need to put a protector on your glass you don't and and we've had this discussion. We've got feedback. You don't need to do it. I understand why some people do it. You make a great product worse when you do you really do. If apple really thought you needed an actual protector on the glass. They would sell it like that. Well you know I think I think there are. There are pros and cons to either approach. Having having recently paid nearly two hundred pounds to get my iphone. Eleven screen change because it had a really deep scratching it though I could feel and it kind of made me go gave me that gross feeling that I got You you were talking about when you when you using. Plastic are basically. It was deep enough. It couldn't you couldn't really see it because he optics. The phone is good but every time you just want something down you could feel it and just events. Yeah just couldn't stand anymore. I tried to poke gloss protector over it too because I felt well can't really see it so I put gloss projects I feel hit and so I put. Yeah one of those things and It lost about four weeks before the gloss protect to Brooke And at that point I just thought well informed going to out for new screen because I consent anymore. I know now and let's face it a lot. People don't care about these things we figure. We've all seen people using shattered phones on public transport and a working not sort of thing and some people. Just go. Well it's very expensive. Change it I can live with it. The difficulty with these folding screens is not only. You'RE GONNA get that bad experience of feeling. But they break they break very closely your and they also breaking away the Gloss Greenstone Most Gloss Greens. They shot sir. Or you've you crack them. You have lines on the screen. But they work. The problem with these is that when they because it's one she of day if you do get any problems with it and I think it's not the basically you saw gay flashing pixels and bits the screen at the work and you've got to replace anyway and I would imagine replacing scream when these things. He's not cheap. Because it's cutting edge technology noah. I can guarantee you that they're not cheap. Yeah apple much soft and having the line in front if even if you have a user interface which involves you moving from one side to the other. Actually I think even with the galaxy fall most these things kind of trick. The software treats. The screen is to separate screens in the middle. You don't really need the continuous thing. But even if you don't and you have a user interface where you're swapping one on CNN. Yeah if you do that gap properly. We can do screens glossaries. Now go virtually route switch. You know you just not GonNa notice that line visually and you probably GonNa feel it far less moving from one on the other than you feel with a plastic a plastic feelings for him with a bump in the bump. That would drive me insane. Yeah it would feel like a bad label on a bottle or something. You know you. You've had a bottle where it's got that before where it didn't quite it. He's the he's didn't quite put it down right there. And it's almost like a bubble kinda. We've all felt that and you'll sit there and push it in a couple of times and it's perfection. But if everybody was like that it would drive you crazy and also you know. Have you ever seen those those pads that the kids use common anymore? But the ones where you would write on with a stylus and it was gray. And then where the stylist touched back with Dr Gray and then to have clean it to fix it to wipe it. You would pick the top. She often it was like loose. And you pull it off and then put it down again Reagan. Come look cheap at your sketch. Well that's what these things feel like. Because that's kind of what they are they. Are you know what this way? You wouldn't get an iphone? You won't put plastic scream only with a big ridge in the Middle. No leave it live and go. Oh it's fine. It's anyways in some respects. I welcome the fact. They're trying they're trying to -nology I've been saying for the current IPHONES. Androids are boring as hell so I to welcome these kind of hey. Let's do something different. But these are just ill conceived not thought out rushed products like we have. We think we've got the technology now. So let's build a product to do it rather than setting rather than saying is this. Is this technology mature enough to give us the experience we want and the answer is no isn't not yet not yet or this isn't the right direction. But why would you launch a product? That's clearly not the right direction that you you're going to. It makes no sense to me. Well I guess maybe from a marketing point of view make sense if let's face it. A lot of people spend more time talking about these products the companies. That made them so. Yeah but it's derisive. Perhaps they are the attitude is. There's no such thing is bad publicity Just is so. Let's talk about our feedback. We've got a couple e mails here one from Owen on occasionally. We'll come on and do the show with us. Yeah and You know he's a little behind the Times because he works at Apple and now he's busy doesn't listen to the show Purple Hassle. He says yeah so he wrote something about a manufacturing China. This is when we were talking about top halls. We were discussing about whether the at the time the upcoming rhinovirus which was much worse in China at that time than than it was anywhere else would affect supply and that sort of thing so he says okay I'm late with comments but feedback on your joining manufacturing about where parts come from. I most also make his did not Michael the pulse for the kind one factory pulse which I which I already know I probably know. More about car manufacturing not from my current job. Because I've been around while I live in Michigan you know. Most of the industries for many years was part suppliers for the manufacturer and courses. Walt the year when you know when the Detroit. Conacao manufacturing file as why hit to try very hard because of it wasn't just the common factor is not jobs at Supplies well yet. So he says the source from all over the place some local some a distance away and then he provided link gracefulness applaud chafer building causing today. He says then guys don't say on October vices. I would suggest that apple does not single source any path from a single supplier in their products. That's a well-established manufacturing process. Just about anything bill today. You don't let some singles via hold the manufacturer hostage have locator. As apple publishes this apply list which is a long and very comprehensive document in the Chandra. Sharing wants a bigger problem this time. Is that many supplies including alternate cels. Parts may also be shut down which may might more difficult to source. But even then I'll bet in my opinion that there are ultimate plus that consoles pause just not as many. Yeah I agree with that. Promises is. This is a pan democ- well yeah exactly as originally originally was on all China issue and that's becoming an all world issue and I think if he looks feticide. We all renowned charted times we have never seen way since since the well becomes a globalized supply manufacturer if not just goods but services yet. We have never seen a single issue or challenge kind of affect the whole world. One guy we have regional things we have. We've had walls. We've had oil price problems. We've had regional stuff like earthquakes and hurricanes and typhoons and floods and that sort of thing and in certainly in the tech industry. I can remember a few years ago was floods that kind of not talk all the hard drive supply for a while Shows up and everything but I was Ram Ram. That's right. Yeah but what we're not seeing. Something affects the entire planet. All in one go and this is what we are of coming to now. And who knows frankly what the economic effects are obviously the PRI- the primary worry. Everyone should have is. Is that people survive this and that that it kills a few people as possible and that sort of thing but obviously any change the way we all live is going to have economic effects as well and sometimes those can be unpredictable. And who knows what happened this year next year. Whatever I mean the other thing about these viruses it you know it may be in cities kind of like a coal version. We may just be with US forever. Now we may just have this yet so then we need to adapt to it. And that's GonNa change the way people live the way people work potentially and all of that is going to have knock-on affecting manufacturing and services system supply and so we don't know obits are offered this point and we are really in this thing so we'll just see what happens. Absolutely yeah You know you're from Brandon. Yeah so brandon also was talking about the the epidemic in China China and he. He sent a quite insane. The epidemic in China appears to have peaked in late January. And that's certainly true. I I've been hearing last week or so. That things are starting to open up again. In China to widely used mobile phone APPS alipay and we chat which in recent years have replaced cashing China have helped to reinforce enforce restrictions because they allow the government to keep track of people's movements and even stop people with confirmed infections from traveling. Every person has a source of Traffic Light System Says Mission NBA Gabrielle. Leeann Dean of the Li ka-shing Faculty medicine in the University of Hong Kong color codes or mobile phones in which green-yellow-red designate a person's health status. Let God's at train stations and other checkpoints now who to let through yes South Korea's also using a Bible out to keep track of those diagnosed positive so a one respect great use technology respect. The problem is you're trusting the government with an awful lot data at the you are and where you're going and what you're doing and we've kind of gives us the willies. Really doesn't it. Yeah that's something that a lot of people have a problem with Including me to a certain extent. I mean look you and I've been podcasting on this show for ten years I've been podcasting since two thousand and four. I started my Mac in nineteen ninety. Four thousand nine hundred eighty four five five so I've been in the public limelight for many years when it comes to this kind of thing so. I don't really assume that I have a whole lot of privacy if you will. I mean you could listen to how many episodes of Tech Fan alone to learn all about my family if you want to so i. I'm not when I've had a cold when I've been between jobs when you know. It's all there so when it comes to privacy. I'm not that big of a you know I get my sound people kind of freak out about it. I don't I guess you could say well if you don't have to hide That's a spacious argument absolute one hundred percent but I but that was a choice. I made So I'm not really all that concerned about it. That being said I understand. Why SOME PEOPLE WOULD? This would be their worst nightmare. The government saying where you can't go by the same token well you know what if you're if you have an infectious disease. Somebody's got to step up and say no you can't get on the plane. Go Screw Yourself. This is the challenge. Certainly we in the West face is that in a free society. We generally don't want to people from doing the things they want to do. And people people rightly. Don't expect that and don't take well to being told to do we. At the beginning of this thing when we had people there was a couple of flights that flew British people from the Wuhan Province. Yeah and they were all kept in quarantine for fourteen days before they were allowed back in Back into the public to make sure that nobody had corona virus and none of them did but I I do remember that probably about four or five days before that first round of fourteen day isolation was finished and they were basically they were garrisoned. Up in a hospital nursing lockup here in in the North West I've never given everything they wanted. They were given access the Internet that were given computers. Tv's food obviously you know. And and the regular health monitoring. You know it wasn't you. It was probably as good as it could be. On the circumstances I remember. The government at taxpayers expense had also flown them round the world away from an area where there is dangerous infection going on apparently one guy five days before the quarantine was Jewish finch. Decided he'd had enough was going to leave and he came down one morning and said I am a And the the guys running. The pledge realized they didn't have the legal stopping and The Minister of Health for the UK actually had to effectively pass on emergency law that morning to allow to bike racing. Give the health workers the right to detain this guy against that. They won't be in the interest of public health. Some sometimes you know in a free society people will do things that a selfish on the interests of everyone else just because people people in a a guest getting Communist China. You can decide that. The the government can override those rights if they want to and they do on a fairly frequent vices for whatever whatever the state and in this case it might be something that you could argue is for the Positive public good but the difficulty is once you go once you given stability than they can use it for whatever they want. Whether it's for good over ill. Yeah if they hear. Us If things don't clear up by them you know. I've I've person disturbing idea all election. The presidential election will be cancelled because of this. No that's going to happen because of the United States. We wouldn't allow that to happen. Well you say that. But the president declared martial law. He can absolutely calls that to happen. And if the if the army decides to enforce the martial law the army and the National Guard and everything then absolutely can do that and the problem with once once a once somebody asserts that level of control and realizes how effective is it can be very difficult to get them to develop true. Yeah it could absolutely happen. I'm not saying it will happen until I can eight. It would absolutely absolutely is a possibility that an interest in controlling this outbreak the imposed martial law could be declared and once you got Macho Law then basically that is the same as Communist China. All rights are under module. All rights are suspended. Impulsively military scary thought in You Know I. I'm self firm believer if people would just calm down and use commonsense. You're GONNA find out. Most of these problems aren't that big of a problem. The reality the reality that certainly will I understand? From the scientific advice we began here and the government here has been very very open about what the advice they guessing is and how they responding to it The Unless you're over seventy years old the chances of you getting seriously ill from this virus if you catch are relatively low and the best way of stopping the virus spreading is anybody who feels like they have cold like symptoms of favor in a dry cough yet should just not go. How unser just stay home from seven to fourteen days trying? Avoid Policy on so people in your Heim sent me trying to avoid from going out and pulsing somebody else. If everybody does that this will be relatively easy to manage. The difficulty is does no flaw people. I'm we've seen here in the UK who get those symptoms and rather than doing what they're tall. Which is St? Heim CALL UP. Help Vinyl maybe use the Internet. We've got official. Nhl Help Available here they say no. I'm going to go to the hospital. I'm going to go to the to my doctors. And of course what they do is named fit everybody they on the way. And then you know before you know it. Everyone's got it and that's the problem and he says is everybody going the more what happens then because that we too many Sierra so people even life sentences for a health systems because it is an you know I'll got opera minister. You say what you want about Boris Johnson than the similarities. In the way sometimes he behaves to add to your president at those. Those comparisons have been made but He's actually pretty good in a crisis but he came out last night he did at a news briefing last night's the whole of the UK and he said he said look. I'm going to live with you. Sadly there are people alive today. Who will not be alive by the end this crisis because of this virus in who now those are probably people who are elderly with pre existing health conditions. And they're going to get this is going to push him the edge and it's it's desperately sad not hate to be any person who family has a situation like that because I had somebody at work the other day when when they said. Oh another person's died but they have pre existing health conditions. I said well that's still life. That's been taken away before their time. As a result of this virus could have been a pretty healthy health condition. That could have been easily cured exactly. Couldn't now because of those exactly and that is a tragedy and that is a worrying that is something we need to focus on because frankly the people who suffer that and they found all GonNa need support going forward and this probably going to be quite a few of those unfortunately but it's not Zombie Apocalypse. And it's not going to wipe his allow. Most of us are going to get a few days in the funding. It goes right. Yeah I want to get out of here. You can't get it again. Well that is strapped. That is unknown at this point to be honest. Let's let's be halfway. They say a cold like virus and we all know that you can get the common cold over and over again strands. It's not no it's not you? It's not like the flu. The flu has all different strains you can get different strains of flu but if you've had one particular type you can't get that again but this particular virus is more like a cold virus flu virus wires. We don't know at this point if you can get it again and again so I think I think there's still research and work to be done on that but you know what that's that's the problem for later. Frankly let's deal with today's problem before we weren't up next year. If you're even concerned or don't feel great stay home your work all understand hopefully And I'm not going to be on that. That's that's my biggest worry for people is that they find the count work because the real will that be told to stay at home and then they find the money because they don't have enough of a social safety now here in the UK is pretty good and may we've just had the budget and they just announced new measures to ensure that some people who are at the end the saucy can access benefits quickly. Should they have to run vars and you'll get a lot of people who who basically if they can't work they doubt if they don't get Walsall's of other problems that are unrelated to ours and people in that situation. I'm going to say well. I decided to rhinovirus so I'm GonNa go into work and then again spread it so with that we're going to spread the joint and this show. We love to see Feedback from me. It's the show at technion podcast. I calm you can always follow us on twitter. It's Tech podcast and of course on What's the other one that David Tissues facebook? Follow us on facebook and This go to TechNet pipe. Yes I come. Remind dot com leave a comment and the show Nelson like like Brandon will read them right here on the show and David in two weeks. And we'll see you next week on gigs pub definitely not going to go and have a long haul tall conversation with an echo now about this interference. I do that too. Punishments in order I think Senate random the will and of course. There's this episode is named shut up Echo by.
Fast Money 05/27/20
"Fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US STOCKS. Ats Commission free based on. How much you want to spend. Instead of. By the share fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent dollar as traits can be entered out to two decimal places. Sell orders are subject to an activity assessment fee from one cent at three cents per thousand dollars of principal fidelity brokerage services member. Nyse PC starts. Now I'm Melissa lead tonight's trader lineup. Guide dominy Tim Seymour. Karen Feinerman and see grotto coming up on bass the fact check. Fight trump takes on twitter. After the social media. Giant slaps warnings onto of his tweets. We'll break down the big risks in this brewing battle plus chairs moderna tumbling again today. What we just learned about insider selling that is raising more eyebrows. And Vox getting a pop in the after hours session on earnings will break down all the big headlines from the quarter but we start off with the great sector rotation pass under or catching a big bid check out. These moves over the past week financially. Nine percent excellent industrials up eight percent. Exile materials three percent on the flip side. Pass out performers like tech and healthcare. They're falling by the wayside underperforming the broader markets with the exile K. Etf down one percent since last Wednesday excellent healthcare is Flat Excellency. Communications up one percent. So is this rotation temporary or will this be the new leadership of going forward Guy Down? We start with you. L. I just about everything is temporary. If you think about it except luggage in the great words of Eddie Murphy. But I digress. I think it can continue. I absolutely think the banks continue here and Kudos to Karen. Who's been talking about the banks and Kudos to both tim. And Steve Been Steadfast saying the paint trade is going to continue to be higher in the broader market. What we have said is banks should be trading higher and I think for example J. P. Morgan which we've outlined the metrics that I use that sixty two hour tangible book. You put a one point eight five multiple that which is reasonable for them. And you're talking about one hundred and fifteen dollar stock so I absolutely think there's another ten to fifteen percent on the upside. What surprises me is the fact that the S. and P. Five hundred in the wake of this in the midst of this rotation continues to grind higher that to me is a bit of a disconnect but the banks to make sense we have gone above three thousand. Grosso held there. We've failed to hold their yesterday. So what do you make of the move so far this week? So it would. Guy pointed out that fifty percent retracement from the all time highs that twenty two hundred. Let's call it low in the S. and P. and now we're at that that six one eight and then above that you're looking honing on old highs again so you have to look at the twenty nine thirty four level and the S. and P. That your support then above that you get to thirty one zero nine if we shoot to thirty one zero nine. It's all but a given that we're going to make new highs in this marketplace. The problem is for me. What is the catalyst for new highs? So I think you're going to have an overreach as we did to the downside. You'll have to the upside but earnings aren't going to be there. You might get a resurgence in corona. Airlines are not going to be making money hand over fist. Restaurants could be making money hand over fist. So what's the reason? So I think we'll overshoot. I think once you start to see maybe a little bit of corona will settle back in everyone I speak to is looking at the three thousand level and the S&P that is your new bowl bear barometer right now. In the overall market so those risk factors for the overall market team like Jain Norma's risk factors could use a technical term for bank specifically Karen mean. We're talking about sort of the lifeblood of the economy here in banks and if we are going to be facing these downside risks banks face them in outside way they do. I think that's why they're here right if you look at as strong as this recovery is I mean. Jp Morgan is up twenty percent in two weeks. It's still dramatically underperformed the market at large. So I've thought for a long time that either the market can't continue to go up with banks going up or they have to converge. Somehow either. Everything goes up or they come closer together. So that's starting to happen. I think that everyone is very optimistic about future earnings. Now we don't completely ignore whatever earnings come out and just WANNA hear. How how's the reopening going? Or what are you seeing in the future? And actually we listened to Jamie diamond and Brian Moynihan both absolutely the center of the economy. They seem relatively optimistic about their business. So I'm hanging onto banks. I don't know I am concerned that the rally has come too far too fast but also the games little rig with the Fed there and potentially additional stimulus that you know they sort of have put a floor. Under here are Boeing. Shares are moving higher in the after our session. We've got some breaking news in that company. Fila bows got the details spill. Melissa here's white. Shares are moving higher. Boeing has officially restarted seven. Three seven Max production at its plant in Renton Washington now. This doesn't mean that you're going to see a new plane coming out of that plant. In the next couple of days it takes a while for the system to completely wake up and they said within the last month that they were waking up the assembly line so to speak while now they have officially begun production at that plant in Renton Washington. And you'll see the first ones roll out of there sometime over the next couple of months. We don't have timing on when that first one will be but guys. This is the beginning of Boeing. Starting on the seven three seven Max slowly bringing back production and remember when it does come back and once they get recertified if they can't get recertified by the end of the summer you will not see massive increase in production. It's going to be a gradual ramp up in production but nonetheless this is an important milestone for Boeing as the Max Production has resumed in Renton Washington. All right bill thank you. Fill ABOUT IN CHICAGO FOR US. Boeing shares up three percent. Now Tim does that make sense to that that we should such a poppin shares of Boeing. When the plane isn't even recertify yet so they they make these plans at a very slow pace and and they go nowhere you. Who's going to buy them? But yes actually we should see this pop because if we remember that the cutting production was a big part of of where we really saw the Boeing share story. Go off the cliff in part of that was just the cost. Attached to getting to restarting production ultimately June was talked about you know. This is actually a pretty amazing that we're beginning production. I remember in the last two weeks. We've had conversations between Boeing and folks like southwest who are a very good position financially relative to their peers to defer airplanes. But also say we will be adding some and we will be deciding. And we are talking with Boeing. We're talking with them about damages. But we will be buying these planes. So this is about that normalizing effect. I think this is a huge moment for bone. I'm long the stock. So take that with what you want but I do think this is exactly what we wanted to see. I don't think anyone is expecting demand in in their orderbook to be what it was. I think we actually have to figure out what book actually is But I think we've gotten past the point where we are worried about their balance sheet at least today and now focusing on the issues that were the issues before cove nineteen and it really is about ultimately getting that re certification If that does happen July and Boeing in this time has changed. Dramatically become very penitent and found religion so to speak in terms of what they need to say outwardly to the public to mollify the FAA. Even if there's other things that have to be done the software sock is climbing. It's up four point. Three Percent Guide army. Is this the Amine? You've got not only its own issues which it seems to be sort of resolving at this point or on the path towards resolving but you also have Boeing as a pandemic reopening sort of trade because of the airline boost. That could see so. Is this the time to be in the stock? Well I mean good for tenth by the way the RB see actually think initiated this stock on May twentieth with one hundred sixty four dollars price targets. That was well timed as well. I think and we pointed out on that day. Something that Tim had been saying. They're the market had been completely discounting. Boeing's defense business and I think now it's being taken into consideration you know I see what's going on here. Clearly and people are trying to get ahead of what they appear to be you know. Let's get ahead of whatever good news is coming. And if it's bad news will have the ability to turn on a dime. We'll see if that plays itself out. One eighty was the level of your call. The stock went from basically eighty to one eighty in a straight line in early in March to early April. I think that's the level you're looking for but it's it's a good sound bite but I don't think they're out of the woods by any stretch the imagination my opinion all right. We'll keep track of the stock which is four point six percent right now back to the markets are discussing playing this rotation by trimming tech buying banks. Let's bring Emily Roland. She's the CO chief investment strategist at John Hancock. Emily great to have you with us. How do you think about the overall markets in terms of this rotation? Are we going to see new? Highs and the S. and P. Five hundred of the broadening market is certainly a good one in terms of forward-looking experts. He is here in one of the things that we think is is really been critical. Here is huge. Willett saw in terms of sentiment on. You've got retail investor that have just been sitting on the sidelines. Just hoarding cash. Over a trillion dollars has gone into money market funds year today investors are looking. Get that cash off the sidelines. And they're looking at the areas that have been beaten up on a relative basis. And you look at technology which we still light up six percent year today and then you look at areas like financial which before this offer down over twenty five percents. We're not totally sold amount term narrative for these more classically cyclical sectors but we played tactical balance right now so in terms of the classically. Cyclical sectors. Emily. Do you not like industrials? For instance it is banks the cyclical that you've single out for specific reasons versus others know about industrials and financials as cyclical sectors. Just classically speaking. Those that are more tied to the economic cycle in order for that long term story to play out. We'd like to see some more inflation. We'd like to rates going higher and that really is not our base case for the next couple of years here but there's been a huge version for Mormons and we think it makes sense to to take some of those gains out of areas technology fixed income side areas like treasuries. I mean let's think about really only been one trade this year tax and treasuries. And that's been great. Congratulations for all the folks that embrace those trades under the idea here is now what snacks and we've got a one way to go in terms of performance recovering areas like industrials financials. We think it does make sense. The lean in this point it talked about the money sitting on the sidelines in the accounts of retail investors. Emily wondering if during this time and in the post pandemic time when when that is upon us if you think about that cash differently if people see the shockwaves rippling through they see their family member. Losing THEIR JOB. They are getting pay cut. It may be that cash stays on the sidelines. Does that change your outlook for the overall markets. You know the real challenge you see with the cash on the sidelines for individuals is the fact that the Fed his now push the short end of the curve. Basically a down to zero so that becomes a problem for same irs and we think that's one of the most challenging kind of behavioral finance elements today is to get investors to curve that. I'm so yes I think you're right to savings rate could move ir which could dampen consumer spending which we know is absolutely critical to this economic recovery but I think the most crushing pressing issue here from an investment standpoint is for those folks to look up. Maria's China generates the over the processor or Ohio. All Right Emily. Thanks so much for your time. We appreciate IT Roland of John. Hancock Karen Feinerman. Does it matter to you that there's trillions of dollars sitting on the sidelines and the retail investors? I mean I guess I'd like to see it specifically in the stocks that I own but I also wonder if that money floods into the market. If that's a sign of a top right. I don't really know but I do agree with her. I mean I do have banks. I do have industrials. That are starting to work. Names like you or I or Fedex Fedex. Recently I think those have a ways to go. I don't know that it's a straight line though. But that's all I'm position the sector. We hadn't mentioned which is also catching a bit in this rotation as retail. We got a bunch of retail earnings out tomorrow. Expertise more than six percent in just two days. Tim Yeah I think if you look at over this rotation that we're talking about for retail and for banks and for industrials. This is not two days. This is not three days. This is two weeks and. I think we just need to be clear about this. You know you've actually had the SNP up eight percent in eight days but during that time. you've actually seen this out. Performance by a the group said I think were were left for dead and it was really very little visibility into where their businesses going. I think on the retail side as we know the expertise. Etf that is A. It's a it contains on what a lot of much smaller smaller index players. And I think if you look at some of the big box and if you look at some of the hard lines and if you look at some the specialty retailers and apparel some of these were so beaten up obviously there's the bottom of the barrel which were things like with all due respect L. Brands and whatnot and macy's we've talked about them but but you know look at Dick's sporting goods. Look at some of these other places where you had some expectation that these guys were going to be dead with the consumer and the proving that they're not and in fact they're they're backup near high so again. This is not a two day rotation this is a two week rotation where banks have outperformed. But you've also seen the leadership. Walmart's down eight percent during that same two week period and I think you're gonNA continue to see that trend on economic release that I am very interested in on that is coming out on Friday and that's personal income guy and I say this because I think there are in. There were a number of articles Bloomberg Wall Street Journal. I believe over the weekend about pay cuts and how people workers may not be losing their jobs but for many of workers out there they are asking. They're being asked by their companies. Share the pain and take some pay cuts and that is gonNA show up eventually and personal income data. Not right away but maybe the smartest released maybe in the following months release and you got to wonder how that impacts consumer discretionary spending it absolutely has to impact that your point and it's all over the country and you can understand what's going on but when you're talking about an economy. United States which is seventy three percent driven by people buying things at a certain point it matters so you know. I see what's happening with the broader market. I totally get it. Optimism wins which is fantastic. But you know again when you look at the sing in the aggregate their north of thirty five million people unemployed. You're talking about the pay cuts that are going on. It's very hard to imagine us getting back to where we were in December as quickly as the market seems to think. That's what gives me pause and that's why I'm trying to be somewhat pragmatic with that said. Optimism is rolling today right now and it's really hard to argue with that coming up shares a box. Getting a pop after reporting results will break down the latest numbers from the cloud company and later trump takes fresh aim at twitter. We will break down the big risks in this brewing battle. Fast when he's back into fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the fidelity mobile APP by US stocks and ATS Commission. Free based on. How much you spend instead of by the share fractional share quantities can be entered up to three decimal places as long as the value of the order is at least one cent dollar-based trade can be entered out to two decimal places. Sell orders are subject to an activity assessment fee from one cents at three cents per thousand dollars of principal fidelity brokerage services member. Nyse SIPC medifast. Money WE'RE GONNA earnings alert on box. Shares in the cloud named surging higher after hours. Josh has all the details. Josh. So mostly at box reporting on both the top and bottom line billings also came in better expected to one hundred twenty minutes for the forecast. Q. To EPS better than expected revenue basically in line for the year though the EPS forecast nicely above consensus in terms of the revenue forecast for your solid relative to expectations remember. This stock had surge about one hundred thirty percent since that March. Low heading into the print. Get the chance to chat briefly with Aaron Levie. I asked him how his work from home. Trend get a benefit his company. He told me that they are seeing healthy. Expansion in the enterprise enterprises he says these new secure ways now to access and collaborate on content in the cloud. His argument is boxes to provide that for them. Forty deals in the quarter over. One hundred thousand dollars did point out some challenges as well. Though the quarter out softness in the segment some softness consulting business to that he said did impact the top line. Those that bottom line be what drove that leverage was he pulling Air Levy. Sing box is driving stronger efficiency across the business way. Better cost discipline now. He says his company Melissa Back to you. All Right Josh. Thank you Josh. Lipton boxers shares up two and a half percent. Sikh Rosso how do you trade this so when you look at these names like these infrastructure software names? It's up about eighteen percent. I believe year to date. It's it's about a three billion dollar market cap on the flip side of that you get seventy billion dollar name. That's up thirty four percent in service now so bill. Mcdermott WENT FROM SAP TO SERVICE. Now who knows maybe service now gobbles up accompanying like box in the future. I would expect box to be the Beta play. But it's not the companies that people are investing in have multiple strategies diversified. And are larger cat names in this environment. I would stay with the service now. Would you rather myself there against box? You Love Self. Would you rather see him? I know you want to say something I. I just wish I could do that as effectively. Steve Does it. It's awesome so so I would be worried about the small business small medium sized business. I mean this is this to me. Is Court their business? I I realized that that enterprise so far is actually proven to be very resilient for reasons we all know what's going on But but those transactions and boasting of those transactions in the size of those transactions. That's really where those businesses live. So if they're seeing some caution there and they've expressed it and I think that's appropriate given the environment. That's not something I think you need to chase. Yeah I mean exposure to small medium business. Karen seems like a real risk in this environment. Yeah it does I mean I guess you'd have to be critical to their business right and then and then there's there's space but you know one thing that's interesting about poxy to how they did have guidance. You know we talk about a company's not giving guidance and when you have a Saas business you just you have somewhat better sense of what your revenues are going to be. So it's not surprised they give guidance and obviously it was decent. So that's a nice move for for box. I don't own it too expensive. But the breaking news here some new sanctions out of Washington Kayla townships dot the latest Kayla. Melissa on Capitol Hill. The House is voting by proxy. Right now which means essentially that some members can vote on behalf of other members who want to be teleworking and they have just secured enough votes to pass a bill that has already been passed in the Senate that would put sanctions on Chinese officials for Human Rights Violations of Muslim minorities. That have been encamped in China for several years at this point of this bill with then go to the president's desk once this. House vote is final and Melissa just adds to this ramping up of anti China actions for a variety of issues. The president has been presented with a policy options on other sanctions on Chinese officials related to its national security law that it is seeking to impose on Hong Kong to crackdown on demonstrations there so certainly. This is just adding to the myriad of anti China's sentiment here in Washington on both sides of the aisle and certainly this is A symbolic move on one hand but also potentially could result in Some retaliation by China Melissa Kayla. Is this the announcement? That president trump teased the other day. When you said that the response to the security law would be announced by the end of the week or is this separate. No this is separate. This is an action that lawmakers on Capitol Hill are taking specifically to hit China for these human rights abuses what the president is planning to announce if he makes a decision to do so would specifically target Beijing in response to that Hong Kong National Security Law that it sought to impose earlier today the Secretary of State Mike pompeo certified to Congress that Hong Kong has not a Hong Kong has lost its authority. It is no longer A One Country Two Systems type special territory that could have ramifications for Hong Kong Special Economic Treatment specifically with regard to the absence of tariffs on Hong Kong. So it's that specific national security law that could result in new action by the administration by the end of this week. All Right Kayla thank you Kayla Tau she keeping on top of all this for US guide. I go to you even talking about these tension. You specifically had raised them when they were just starting to emerge here and this appears to be one in a series of actions that we don't even know we don't even know the extent of it quite yet because that announcement Kayla had mentioned in terms of retaliation specifically for the National Security Law. We don't know that yet and here. We are guy and of all the things that give me concern and have given me pause. I mean this has been the top of the list yet when I first started talking about this. The S. and P. Five hundred is probably up one hundred and fifty handle since so clearly for whatever reason the broader market doesn't seem to care again. I'm not certain why I think this is a big deal. I absolutely think president trump views. This move in the broader market as sort of bullets to play with in terms of the rhetoric with the Chinese. And I think he's going to use them and you know what maybe he should. I this is not a political statement but they're ramifications for that and I think manifest themselves in the stock market. My sense is any announcement that will be made will be made probably Friday after the close so the market has a weekend to think about it but again this rhetoric is not going away. It's only gonNA intensify and at a certain point. I think the market will care. We have offshore yuan. Hit a record low against a US dollar in the recession at an hour after our session. I should be clear to and it does seem to be. It does seem that businesses over there are falling in line with Beijing. We had Li ka-shing who is a very well known. Hong Kong businessman effectively backing the National Security Law. Today I mean there was an advertisement poster with him his smiling face there and then we also have news. I'm not sure this is related. But it does seem to be related that Nettie as well as Jaydee will be listening secondaries in the Hong Kong market so. They're they're also saying you know what we are Chinese companies and we are going to stick by here their national shipping companies. They're going to do with a they need to do to stay loyal here. And frankly whether it's listing in Hong Kong or whether it's listing in in Beijing in the local exchanges. I mean there are options there is liquidity there and there is a government that will support them as well so it rule of law in Hong Kong is critical and I think it's critical as a global issue and this gets back to is the just the only player here that will be putting pressure on China. I doubt it and that that that elevates trump on some level so the common enemy is a very important political tool here and I think real or not and I think we would all argue in both sides of the aisle arguing that China is very much a target. And therefore that's going to play well politically and therefore has guy said though from the market's perspective maybe with markets having done what they've done we've seen this administration say you know what we were keeping an eye on the stock market. But we're certainly comfortable with the bullets. We have the fire here. Which is I know guys term. Ah I'll take that as well all right. We got another earnings alert here. On toll brothers. The stock is up nine percent the after hours session. Let's get to old with all the details Diana yet Melissa. Toll had a really nice beat in the second quarter much more than expected but what was really interesting in this report is how doug yearly the described the quarter as basically bifurcated. They came in very strong in the beginning with sign contracts way up forty three percent and then the second half of the quarter of course when the Kovic hit down sixty nine percent but then he talked about what he's seen in the last three weeks and I think that's really what's moving the stock. He said that just in the last three weeks of. May they had orders down thirty seven percent now up thirteen percent and he added Web. Traffic has also steadily improved from the lows we experienced in mid March and has returned to the same strong activity. We enjoyed pre cova one thousand nine in February. Then he added these early trends suggest. A housing market may be more resilient than anticipated just two months ago. And that's what we signed the new home sales numbers that were out yesterday. They were expected to drop twenty two percent in April month to month and they were actually up barely one percent but up in the positive as high demand for housing and low supply on the existing home side is pushing more buyers to the builders now is a luxury home builder but their price their average sale price in Q. Two came down pretty dramatically over ten percent so you can see some price concessions there and that demand coming in for more housing part of it may be that urban flight of people wanting to get out. They've been at home too long. We know that and they want to get out to the suburbs more space a backyard. A Home Office all of those things benefiting the builders and clearly benefiting toll Martha all right. Diana thank You Dana. Olek we also know that mortgage applications of for six straight weeks at this point so financing is out there also for this consumer see grow so you have been in the home builder's still I am not in the home. Builder's right now in toll is in those expensive markets. So it's in those in those markets that actually had more severe shutdowns Washington State California the upper income levels in California San Fran for one of them Philly Pennsylvania so no matter how you slice it they. It was tremendous headwinds for for toll brothers but innate toll brothers even though they cut in half their date loss D. R. Horton has really really performed. It's up eleven percent year to date. What else is up? Eleven percent year to date a name. That guy talks about all the time. Home Depot. Lowe's up six percent so you can go a different way on the home builder's but let's Remember D. R. Horton. Why did they perform because they build? Spec home so what's look looked upon as a negative is now a positive because they actually have product to sell. I would stay in. Dr Horton. I would sell this pop toll. It was over positioning pop as far as I can tell all right coming up. The headline sent one time. Biotech Darling Moderna thinking again today. We'll find out if it's enough to make one big bowl changes mind plus tassels reality check with the company. Just did that is true. Sign of the Times. We have the details with fast money. Return welcome back to fast money. Drugmaker MODERNA raising a few eyebrows again today. Sad news reporting company executives sold eighty nine million dollars worth of shares since the start of the year. The sales were pre preplanned so legal but they come as a company looks to raise more than a billion dollars through secondary stock offering. Low dern shares are now down thirty five percent since last. Monday's closing price when the company announced positive phase one clinical trials of a potential corona virus. Vaccine our next guest reiterated overweight rating on the stock with a one hundred dollars price target. Let's bring in paper Sandler. Senior Biotech analysts Ted tenth off Ted. Great to have you with us. Would you concede that there's an optics problem at Moderna? In terms of the preliminary phase one data being released the companies then rushing to secondary. And then now this news about all these preplanned sales well actually in the biotech. Space companies often raise money on the hills of positive data. And if you think about it. This is Money that's being raised to be the manufacturer upwards of a billion Sars COVA to vaccine's so they the company certainly needs the money. The timing of the Inside sales is Is Not Optimal. But as you mentioned in the opening comments These are very strictly controlled for C. Level Executives So I think it's an optics issue But not boys that is there any concerning mind that the SEC could have grounds to investigate because even though as we understand in speaking to Jacob Frenkel former FCC attorney even though these sales were preplanned and legal the SEC could still have grounds to to investigate. Yeah so you know. I don't have a comment on what is going to do. They obviously do a great job monitoring all different kinds of trade set occur. So you know it's going to be up to them if they decide to look into into these Insider stock sales. Let's talk about the stock itself and you're overweight rating on it. You see the Stock. Virtually doubling over the next twelve months according to your call here so in terms of the ten billion of ten billion dollars in revenue one billion doses a year. So that's ten dollars a dose of wondering who who pays for this and we're trying to understand for vaccines like this you know when there's such pressure on the part of governments to say this is a humanitarian cause at this point give us the vaccines he will pay for that. Yeah so you know clearly Government will pay for this also. I believe ensures. We'll pay for this. If you think about the cost of a single vaccine versus what it costs for a patient to go into the hospital with severe respiratory distress gonNA ventilator for months. It's it's vaccinations. One of the most cost beneficial of investment. And actually when you think about ten dollars a vaccine. That's not the price of the flu vaccine every year. So tell me most of when you pay ten dollars for a Koby to vaccine at this point for the ability to go back to life and One one investor really puts me this by Said Yeah. How much has SARS Kobe to? How much has the COVID pandemic cost the US economy? I mean five trillion at least in Stimulus have to match at least double that so even if it was a hundred billion dollars you know. That's a drop in the bucket in terms of what this protective vaccines protective product could do in terms of actually revitalizing and protecting the American economy. And the American people. How much is a covert vaccine? How much of that is in your model in terms of what it's worth to the stock. I mean as I understand it. Moderna has never brought a product across the finish line and it has six platforms that have either failed or have been dropped. Well I think that might not be a fair characterization we believe that. Messenger or name. Which is the technology behind? This is ideally suited for vaccines and again keep in mind. Nobody's really named the price yet for this team. We're just assuming. Let's say it's ten ten dollars a share. They entered into a contract with Lonzo to be able to produce a billion a year. I'm just trying to show what the potential could be It may actually end up costing more than that and again. I think the value that a product like that would bring. And this has really you know we put a one one of the Times multiple on those revenues. And that's about fifteen billion or a little less than half of the total value of our thirty six plus billion dollar enterprise value for one hundred dollars price target Modena's working on other vaccines including for very serious diseases like cytomegalovirus. Rsv Zeka other diseases as well And they also. This technology could be ideally suited for orphan diseases where the orange can actually use to produce the missing protein or ends on. We think that's a really exciting opportunity for this company. A little bit beyond Cova Team Cans. Got a question for you. Ted thanks being onto when you think about the revenue for the vaccine. How do you think about the competition right? You've got some of the very deepest pockets in the world trying to get to the same place. Yeah great question for starters. Keep in mind you know. I really does matter here because if you think about it all of us who have not been exposed to SARS koby to have zero body. That's why this vacuum. That's why this disease been so disruptive and so deadly frankly so just inching up the immunity to any level provides protection and what the company reported in the NIH The NIH reported really from their study that the lowest doses of this vaccine twenty five micrograms gets to Sierra Levels. That are That of patients recovering from covid nineteen and one hundred micrograms gets even higher. So you know. There's a lot of competition out there. Frankly a billion doses when you have to get to vaccinations east. That's five hundred million vaccines. We're going to need everybody to produce as much vaccine as possible to really not just protect the United States to protect our European allies and the rest of the world. So you know personally. I think we should be cheering for all of these companies to succeed. Tad Great to speak with you. Thanks so much for your time of Great Dick Ted tenth off of Piper Sandler. We've been collectively skeptical the stock for mealy the optics reasons but also because the data is preliminary at this point guy. Have you changed your mind? Now it's at a point where it becomes a little bit of a lottery ticket so I changed my mind only in so much. The stock is going lowered. One thing I want to say quickly listen. Companies can do what they want if they think it's the right time the price of secondary who am I to argue? My point wasn't so much the secondary their excuses as to why they did it. They said they were doing that. Secondary to raise one point two five billion dollars for manufacturing and distribution of the vaccine. You only do that if the vaccine was successful. And if the vaccine was successful the stock would be training one hundred dollars which is a much better level to a secondary so to me. It's not so much. The secondary it's the somewhat nebulous reason as to. They gave why they did it coming up. President trump threatening to crack down on the Social Media. App seems to be so fine though what it could mean for twitter and the rest of the industry later or counting down to earnings from salesforce by one trader says this cloud named was floating higher fast when he's back into welcome back to money president trump taking issue with his favorite mode of communication twitter. Julie Watson's got the details Julia Well Melissa. A conflict between the president twitter all started when for the first time twitter flagged to the president's tweets is potentially misleading. Now the president claiming the mail in ballots would be quote substantially fraudulent which draws an alert from twitter saying get the facts about male and ballots which directs users to created page with more information about these claims though twitter telling CNBC quote these tweets contained potentially misleading information about voting processes have been labeled to provide additional context around mail in ballots. This decision is in line with the approach. We shared earlier this month. Trump responding to this by threatening to shutdown social media platforms for being biased and silencing conservative voices. He tweeted quote. Twitter has now shown that everything we've been saying about them and their compatriots is correct. Big Action to follow trump also tweeting that social media companies should clean up their act. Twitter shares did and the day down nearly three percent to you. Melissa Julia thank you Julia. Should we be concerned about that? Quote Unquote big action to follow. Grasso your whenever whenever the President says something like that. You have to be wary of it but when you look at it through a first of all just just take that example and twitter. Now we're all GonNa start to think about the links that they said so we're gonNA argue over whether those are real real so I think you have to look at this with with how how the other companies played up. Currently in snap snap is up. Basically four percent year to date snap said they will fact check. Facebook said they will not touching it and twitter. Basically said months ago that they weren't going to accept political ads so I think the way to play this for me obviously. Facebook has been the outstanding performer up eleven percent year to date. That's the one that garnered the most attention. That's the one that gets the most money I would worry about the political angle to this but I would play snap by facebook for long-term place snap for the bigger. Move off this bottom and twitter. I think they're going to be in the Bullseye four political angle. And you don't want to be on the wrong side of this fight going into the election. My opinion all right coming up tesla cutting prices in two key markets but the soft out strong today fast one gene. Munster joins us from the other side of the break and later options traders say. The clouds are clearing around salesforce. Gains will bring you that trade and fast money return walk too fast money facebook holding its annual shareholder meeting today. Ceo Mark Zuckerberg just with Andrew. Ross sorkin discuss facebook's plan for remote workforce and how will onboard new talent virtually? Take a listen one of the big challenges with with remote work that we're all GONNA have to work through. Is that is the feeling of of building social bonds building culture and creativity together People are going to need to feel like they have the same opportunities to do their best work remotely in addition to being in the office. And they're gonNA need to feel like it's not gonNA disadvantage their career to work remotely and those are things that we're GONNA have to be very intentional. There are a lot of open questions on exactly to do this. This is part of the reason why we're taking a measured approach enrolling without over Over the coming years starting with people who are experienced her high performing of the company In order to set that tone that the good kind of key leaders and folks that a lot of people wanna be like are going to be moving to be remote. I think that will set the tone. He can watch the entire interview including Mark Zuckerberg response to twitter fact checking. That's tomorrow starting at six. Am Meantime Andrew. Ross Sorkin joins us by phone Andrew. How how is this Hey they're good to speak with you. Thanks for joining fast in terms of his reaction. I know you you want. Unveil the soundbite tomorrow in the part of the interview about the president. But what SORTA Tony Strike and in terms of speaking about the president's threat of a quote unquote big action to come. I think he he's tried to be as measured as anybody in this whole process and I think unlike twitter has clearly taken a different stance which is as when it comes to political speech. Or at least what he would describe his political speech That he doesn't think that He or facebook. It is should be in the business of of regulating it if you will Obviously the president also agrees with him. But there are others like Jack Dorsey twitter. Different View. I'll I'll I'll let the viewers at see what mark has to say about all this tomorrow but it was. It was very interesting to contrast and compare the different approaches. That they're all taking as well as even the different approaches. They'll take you to to work. As you know Jack Dorsey also moving to a work from home remote for everybody approach. And how does that work relatives to a sort of clogged office? Plus work from work from home. Remote I however you want to describe The these new virtual Ways world trying to work together. We're working from home for facebook. Will that help them save money Andrew because they're adjusting salaries according to where you decide to work from? So if I moved to hire they'll hire I think I don't think that's actually what's driving. I think what's driving. It is the they need to hire something on the order. Ten thousand engineers in the next year and I think that their ability to be able to recruit people who historically didn't want to go live in Silicon Valley or live in some of these other expensive areas or stay closer to their family or working. Cohorts if you will. I think that's what's really driving this. I also think and he talked about it. This idea I've tried to create a more diverse workforce that if you can actually find people in different parts of the country you will actually create a more diverse workforce. So I think that's more than anything more than the price that I know. Everybody will look at the numbers but I think he's GonNa end up having to create offices in all sorts of cities and places that he had necessarily had before. Because as part of this. He's not implanting on you from working from home. All the time at some level he plans to have you bring employees INC as a community together and so they're going to be additional cost to this too There's also a lot of complexity tax complexity to pulling this off because you're going to be having employees potentially in every state in America right and the cybersecurity involved also has to be there if you have all these remote particularly engineers working all over the country Andrew. Thanks so much for calling in we appreciate and we look forward to the interview with Joey with Seo Mark Zuckerberg tomorrow squawk box starting at six. Am coming up. Should you get your head out of the clouds by salesforce? We'll dig into what options. Markets are predicting ahead of tomorrow's earnings reports. Stay with us. Welcome back to pass money salesforce finishing higher today the stock has made a big recovery from lows of the year the digital reports earnings tomorrow options traders are betting the stock will kick into high gear. Mike got the action. Hey Mike Hi Melissa. So today we saw calls outpace foot by about two to one in salesforce and the options market right now is implying a move about four point eight percent. That's in line with the four percent or so that the stock has moved on average over the last eight quarters and the most active options where the weekly one eighty strike calls buyers of those are betting that the stock is going to be above that one eighty strike price by a couple of bucks so that would be suggesting that they believed that the four and a half to five percent move will be to the upside all right. Thanks for that Mike. More options action the full show Friday five thirty. Pm EASTERN TIME COMING UP FINAL TRAITS. Big night coming your way and CNBC Elon. Musk Jay Leno. Kick the tires on the new Tesla's cyber truck her to catch an all new Jay Leno's garage that's night ten PM EASTERN ON CNBC trade time. Karen Feinerman we've taken off of you. Yes I want to say congrats to my daughter. Lucy who graduates from college tomorrow and I remember the day she was born next thing. I know. Zoom call tomorrow with pomp and circumstance in the background and my final trade. Short T Lt. Lucy. Congratulations Steve Grasso. This one's been great to be turned CEO. It's actually breaking out. It's up big in the last week. Or so t s e ticker symbol by Trinh CEO. Tim Seymour Nike. At one. Hundred dollars think take some profits. This is where we had is well before. Covid nineteen thirty six times trailing and. We don't know the future fate Nike Guy Donnie to kill Lucy and your classmates and Lockheed Martin take a look at that one Melissa I will. Thanks for watching fast money. Everybody mad money with Jim. Cramer starts right now. Fractional shares trading is now available for all fidelity customers on the FIDELITY MOBILE APP by US stocks and ATS Commission. Free based on. 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Friday 16 August
"You're listening to the briefing first broadcast on the sixteenth of august two thousand nineteen on monocle twenty four hello and welcome to the briefing briefing coming to you live from studio one here at missouri house in london. I'm elson and ahead on today's program. The of cathay pacific rupert hog steps down when examined the departure of a man stuck between a rock and a hard place plus. Donald trump calls for to democratic congresswoman to be barred from israel. What does this say about his involving the other countries to score political points at home and it seems he wants to go shopping to we'll ask why would donald trump went to buy greenland and we have a pop countdown for friday making mayfield. Maybe perhaps the best baby oh that right here in the briefing with me emma nelson the of cathay pacific nick rupert hog has resigned after his firm became embroiled in the protests in hong kong. Mr hogg said it had been challenging weeks for the airline the chief customer in commercial commercial officer paul. Lou is also leaving well. Let's hear now from our hong kong bureau chief james chambers james. Could you tell us what's happened please. It's a breaking news out of hong kong as you mentioned the the c._e._o. Of got the pacific group step down along with another senior executive and as you mentioned <hes> it has been an extremely challenging week for for cathay pacific. I mean on on monday and tuesday the airport here was shut down and the ah the airline had to cancel over two hundred flights <hes> and cathay pacific is a bit like <hes> british airway bush always in in is like a defacto flag-carrier career here so it kinda dominates the local aviation industry <hes> but i guess what the the the big concern is that <hes> the the airline and had to reverse a policy that in place that it wouldn't stop it. Stop taking part in the protests over the cabin crew. Even the pilots have been very visible visible in in in the protests and <hes> this is something that the airline was forced to <hes> force to change with <hes> because of pressure coming from i'm from china so <hes> after the the flight cancellations and that kind of embarrassing reversal than <hes> the next thing in this in a disastrous week for the company's c._e._o. After resigning this is not good news for cathay pacific <hes> not least because it appears to be a company which is entirely stuck. It's it's the perfect example of the issue of of the pull between hong kong and the mainland definitely. This is a rock and a hard place certainly applies to cathay pacific. It is hong kong's l. line but <hes> it depends <hes> on mainland china for a lot of its passengers a lot of his business and most crucially to be able to fly through chinese s base <hes> and one of the threats that was made by the chinese aviation <hes> <hes> ministry was that they were gonna block this from flying through china <hes> unless submitted <hes> details about all the staff that would be manning these these <hes> airplanes and that's something that's a cafe went along with because they know that if they shut out from chinese airspace they hold business collapses so <hes> i mean this is this. This is one example of <hes> some of the tactics that beijing is using <hes> to shutdown these protests. It doesn't seem to be having much luck luck or impact in actually stopping the the young people in the protest hitting the streets so it's taking its alternative routes is to focus on a lot of the businesses here. I'm <music>. I'm trying to strangle them. What kind of man is we need was rupert hug as leader of cathay pacific able up until now it appears to straddle that gap well root hog took over in in two thousand seventeen and when he did of the company was financially in a bit of trouble and and so he since since taking on the positions c._e._o. He's led this kind of turnaround of the company and it's been very successful. <hes> in that's it's brought the the company back to profitability <hes> and its recently announced that it acquired a local ally called hong kong express and with the acquisition would be controlling fifty percent of of landing slots here in hong kong so up until these protests it. Was you know it was it was a good year for for cathay pacific and definitely you could hear. Could you ever rupert hog. He was looking very much like a a star of the group <hes> and it's <hes> you know he's one of these <hes> career people at zac cafe so <hes> it's <hes> very much a shock to see him. Leave all of a sudden. Tell us a little bit more. Though about who is going to replace him <hes> the news that we guess is that the two names in line to replace <hes> mister haagen-dazs liu tang kin wing augustus and ronald lam <hes> respectively although they more likely to tow the chinese party line either both experienced executives. They've been drawn from the cafe bench. <hes> augustus tang was the c._e._o. Of heiko which is the <hes> an aviation services and engineering company that ah cafe owed so he's stepping up to <hes> to become c._e._o. Of cathay pacific <hes> and ron lamb comes from hong kong express the airline. I just mentioned that they are a quiet so these guys are both aviation veterans <hes> <hes> it's difficult to say whether they're going to be more likely to tell the line but i guess it'll be a case of their certainly only on they'll know what they need to do and they'll be <hes>. They'll have had the warning that <hes> you know. China is very much <hes> taking a close eye on what pacific does it's the airline even though it's it's part of <hes> the swire group which is a big conglomerate here which owns just over a half of the airline one of the major shareholders and air china which is like the the state-owned flag-carrier in china so they own about twenty nine percents so it there's a signal chunk of shareholders who are going to be able to pressure the board and the management of pacific to do what they want and <hes>. I was this latest announcement indicates. There's there's really not much that <hes> kathy can do to to go gainesville fishing ones had the departure of the cafe pacific and we've also had had a very high profile <hes> campaign run by lee shing hong kong's richest man telling everybody to stop protesting and start loving <hes> do we look now as if there's no more concerted effort by the business community to try and bring the protests to a close before something else could happen. These protests definitely starting to have a big impact on hong kong's economy <hes> which will get a lot of people worried here but <hes> as you mentioned the lukashenko has taken out adverts in many of hong kong's most important and widely read newspapers today basically calling for people to bring an end to these <hes> protests but <hes> you know whereas it might be might be seen as as him fulfilling this role as a kind of senior figurehead forget head in hong kong. He's obviously got his own business interests and <hes> this will definitely be seen as a very very cynical move by into in to go along with what <hes> beijing once there was a a meeting or the senior business leaders in hong kong was summoned to a to a meeting in china a few weeks go where they were basically told by beijing they they needed to <hes> you know chip in and show their support for the government and <hes> you know take take a phone line <hes> for me from anti protest line and so i guess with these latest happenings we're we're seeing that <hes> come into effect <hes> and so even though china's is not necessarily having much success not neither government policing this and shutting the protest down <hes> the fact that you know li ka-shing is now intervening meaning and and people like rococo being forced out <hes> shows that <hes> you know there are many more things that <hes> the hong kong government and indeed china can do to to try and bring these protests to an end james chambers. Thank you for joining us with the briefing live on multiple twenty four and a little later on today's program my guests danielle paladin jonassen awesome fenby will join me in the studio to examine among other subjects the dilemma facing beijing when it comes to the hong kong protests but before that let's have a quick look at the day's as headlines his monocle daniel beach thank you emma police in zimbabwe's capital harare have reportedly used violence to disperse around one hundred opposition supporters from remain square that gathered in defiance of a police ban on opposition demonstrations which had been planned to protest the government's mismanagement of the economy pakistani pakistani and indian troops have been exchanging fire across the disputed line of control in kashmir pakistan has reported that six people have been killed but an indian army me spokesperson refuted this saying there have been no casualties. It's the latest in the escalation of tensions that followed india's revocation of kashmir special status last week week and chinese telecoms giant alway has become the latest company to attract criticism for allegedly mislabeling taiwan users on china's social media platform platform way below have accused the company of listing taiwan as its own country on its smartphone when the smartphone is set to traditional chinese a number of western companies including for saatchi were forced to apologize for a similar transgression last week. Those are some of the day's headlines now back to you emma. Thank you very much indeed daniel. Let's let's get the latest business headlines now joining me in the line is bloomberg's sebastian celek sebastian a bad day for the london stock exchange yeah it was it's going to be quiet day on the markets and then we go this stock exchange the footsie one hundred and the footsie to fifty indexes taking about ninety minutes to open. There was a technical glitch. An amended ended stocks like h._s._b._c. b._p. Astra zeneca or if he's really big companies nobody could trade them and the issue was also for people who dealt with related related securities like index trackers so that people who trade sort of parcelled up securities. They didn't know what the underlying prices for those security was there essentially flying blind so really bad look for the stock exchange especially given the say the markets at the moment so much to take into account. You've got brexit. You've got the trade dispute between the u._s. And china you've got concerns around a recession so you've already got a lotta price swings <hes> for this to compound. It was unhelpful of course you've goal the footsie moving into data in a big way. They have acquired agreed to acquire comfortable representative just weeks ago. A twenty seven billion dollar deal betting on the future. Your dominated by data solutions become even more high profile <hes> of this happening in the background. Have we got any indication about what happened here. I mean technical technical glitch. <hes> it's never good when the london stock exchange suffered one of those because people will initially think well. Was it entirely innocent they they don't give much information. They certainly don't allude to the idea that it could be malicious. The other sequels the outage at technical software issue and they didn't expand on that when bloom in by journalists tried to get clarification so that being pretty vague but there is some precedent for this sort of thing we saw something similar happen <hes> about thirteen months ago in june of twenty anti a._t. And that was a software issue again but the worst <hes> that we've had since this <hes> was about eight years ago you had other exchanges also getting hit in the last few you must in the u._s. We had an issue with c._m._e. Group which is an exchange operator in february and that caused a trading halt of about three hours and that was pretty crucial because it prevented buying the setting of contracts that tied to u._s. Treasuries stock futures commodities a little very liquid markets. The very heavily traded that was wiped out <hes> and you had weird price moves as well with stocks like alphabets which is the parent of google and apple which had a wit last few minutes of trading this week. That's where you had data glitches as well so it seems to be a lot of issues that need to be ironed out <hes> but nobody is really saying that i it is malicious. Although that prospect is always open and it could cause a lot of damage a the money goes through these indexes doesn't it. It doesn't date specimens. Thank you very much indeed for joining us on monocle twenty four. You're listening to the briefing. <music> <music> protesters in hong kong have been told that they'll be limited in where they can demonstrate been straight this weekend but they seem unfazed by this and the presence of thousands of chinese military police ready to roll in and quell the movement one woman till the financial times newspaper today. She'll just stay at home until the people liberation army goes away. We'll joining me to explore this and some of the other stories making today's headlines. <hes> daniela pellet is managing editor of the institute for war and peace reporting and jonathan fenby chairman of china research and direct tears lombard. Welcome both to the program <hes> jonathan. Let's begin with you the the last few days. We've palpably seen things quicken pace fastener haven't we we have indeed <hes> we've also seen that the rhetoric from the chinese side and the the the massing of troops just across the border in shenzhen <hes> together with a warning at one point they are only ten minutes away from hong kong that is undoubtedly raised the temperature from that side of the eldest height. We had <hes> the airport occupation by the protesters which turn pretty islands <hes> towards the end now as it were both sides are looking at each other wondering whether go next it is something that i think a lot of us are are expecting nothing nothing violence to happen army because many are saying the chinese and he's wouldn't dare well. It's i think that's <hes> that's not very hopeful. Really the chinese made it clear unusually a because they didn't like to refer to a gentleman that times have changed and they don't anticipate that kind of a scenario but sunday there is plan the biggest rally we so far now the million people on the streets <hes> there has been violence. These kind of events do attract violence whether by al-sham provocateurs says or just by the nature having a lot of people around <hes> so i think sunday looks likely to be a flashpoint. I think we should watch out for that. Would you agree with that journal. It's a flash point but it'll be the main question which is obvious to say is the extent to which the demonstrators shun will will remain peaceful and just huge number of people which is quite difficult for beijing to object to if you like in the way that it has been done to the violence with talk of united the sprouts of terrorism and so on <hes> i think the cost i for the central government of military intervention still remains very high and if you had if you imagine that you had military intervention and by the way what happens off towards how does beijing control a territory as sophisticated as complex as hong kong with seven million the people there is a thing that quoted a a woman he said financial the financial times that she'll just stay at home until the people's liberation army goes away in the protesters is we'll. Just let them do let the the the role in and do what it needs to do. The second half of that quote daniela says i'll probably just at home anticipating the the withdrawal of all foreign investment from hong kong and the possible economic collapse of china that will follow. What's the likelihood of that would be quite quiet. This is the thing i mean there's a lot at stake cares very different a different kettle of fish in many ways this has played out according to the classic international playbook of <hes> demonstrations under remove repressive regime. It being blamed outside actors and l. infiltrators. Apparently this is america's doing helped by some american interference now tweets from <hes> donald trump but <hes> <hes> the the way ladies things usually play out as well is that there is the <hes> you know the regime is seen as ultimately the harbinger of stability as opposed hi sta chaos and so people eventually will make a choice <hes> <hes> the better the what's particular. This issue is that <hes> robust action action by china will lead to such economic <hes> chaos that right. Which do you choose tuna sandwich chaos. Do you think is likely to be chosen. Okay well chaotic things going on around the same time <hes> in the whole china confrontation over trade but over annoymous number of other things too and i think you know you have to fit hong kong into <hes> that <hes> context there but i think one one thing is clear is that hong kong in the future will not be what hong kong laws in the past in which way i mean economically. We've already seen real changes happen. In this last week i mean just a moment ago we reporting on the departure of the castro pacific y- companies and increasingly all other institutions in hong kong. We'll be required <hes> by beijing to show loyalty to the central government <hes> in a way that <hes> brings into question the high degree of autonomy ptolemy promised that the handover what do you think the international community would do. Daniele were china suddenly <hes> to send in the people's liberation nominee and clear the street well. The international community isn't really very good at acting with any show of unity and we can see <hes> especially when the actors involved are quite light powerful <hes> what would think i'm sure it would issue some <hes> <hes> some statements some politicians. We should say say we should take the u._n. The security council there might be a small problem with the u._n. Security council for giving china is on it <hes>. I don't think one when i see the worst coming i don't see it in terms terms of massive armed intervention because that doesn't really make any sense but the threat the the amounting all research so far being explained and why is all the the the the the army is it's just doing its usual maneuvers. This has been long-planned again. You know these are all these rules. Take straight out of the playbook but i do see the the chance of not mass invasion but yeah some sort of like physical on the ground coercion and beijing could really play a long game here because purchase. It's generally tends to peter out after a while. Now how long that while might be is one thing but what are your thoughts on that in these circumstances well. That's where the this weekend some this demonstration will be extremely important as a measuring pa ah gauge to how strong the feeling of not just the protesters who scene at the airport and in the violence <hes> but how broad support they have among hong kong people in general and that was important thing at the beginning. I think the number of people who turned out and the breadth of support <hes> for these concerns about the way the place is going. This is something that could lost quite a while. Though isn't it danielle if we have. We've had you know okay. The the the <hes> employees of cafe pacific <unk> who last week was sanctioned to protest now being fired <hes> at the request of senior new senior management but when you have people like the the civil servants and teachers guy onto the streets. Do you think that gives these protests of longevity. The thing is is that peaceful protests in a us us any kind of revolutionary context. Mrs pretty revolutionary. I mean this is this is this is unprecedented. It doesn't stay <hes>. It doesn't stay. Stay peaceful for long and again. We're following a a playbook and violences is inevitably of that so <hes> there comes a point where ordinary people turn away because it's just not it's just not in the interest and the and the regime narrative of violence terrorism at becomes much more compelling and and follow that i mean one thing that is striking in hong kong editing the south china morning post there twenty years ago the contrast obviously between then and now is is absolutely city enormous but one element in that <hes> apart from the generational change of the protesters has been the relationship between the protesters demonstrators is on the one hand and the police on the elbow which used to be pretty tolerant one of the other but now clearly there is a a depth of antagonism anisim there which tens trends as daniela were saying towards the application of violence. Which do you suspect tool discovery on in that direction it will and the trouble is the hongkong been government approved of course <hes> by beijing in the first claes carrie lam chief executive really lost control of the situation to democratic congresswoman have been banned from travelling to the occupied pied west bank and east jerusalem follows a tweet by president donald trump's in the ilhan. Oma rashida hated israel and all jewish people. All the ban on one of the two congresswoman rashida say has been lifted in the last couple of hours on the grounds that she wants to visit her grandmother. That is a personal visit but daniele <hes> this was when i read donald trump's tweet today. I was rather taken aback. I really who said something unpleasant in particular women well. I think he described them as hated israel and all jewish people the forcefulness. I think i mean he's not a man who holds back with his tweets. Yeah he's he. Maybe he knows about people who hate jewish people because he does seem to hang around with quite low of a massive racist and anti semites but i think in this case he's paying party politics with with <hes> you know current affairs. Israel israel is incredibly sensitive about the boycott divestment sanctions movement to the point that it sees it as an existential threat even even though it had very little impact economically but diplomatically and israel's branding in the world it sees it as <hes> appalling and also it does have some unpleasant resonant so you think about the boycott of jewish shops and by the nazis and so on but despite all this that conversation that was had injuries limits is that the could not deny entry to democratic congresswoman because that would be just be too damaging relationships. Well trump made his tweet. The decision was reversed. I am now the idea that <hes> is going to be visiting her grandmother. Well that's shows israel compassionate. I saw it and according to the law. It's a real it's a real mess. Particularly <hes> complicated by the fact that israel is about to go to elections elections <hes> next month and everyone wants to virtue signal about how tough they are on <hes> and how they can stand up to the americans or not stand end up the americans will say netanyahu needs trump's backing <hes> in the upcoming polls so just really a big best because i said a big mess and a very very open effort <hes> jonathan by the united states or by donald trump to influence a foreign government against his political opponents of that that is very unusual element to this i think <hes> and to do so so openly with tweets rather than just you know attila discreet telephone call all <hes> which is not <hes> trump's way <hes> and this has to be seen daniela says in the electoral context both in in israel and even more so in the united states and virtually everything trump is doing now. I think including the the trade war is conducting with china have to be seen in the context of his bid for reelection and one thing that has been mentioned i by by the by the democrats quite a list of pro israel groups about sheep condemned this this doing inferring. What are your thoughts on this well. I mean it is a bit bonkers really and it's all down to this idea that israel's process little that you could they will deny nine entry to <hes> people who support the b._s. movement which again ties itself in knots because what happens then if you have instances somebody with a jewish <hes> <hes> grandfather grandmother who is retitled to return of attend to go live in israel a facebook media so what now you now you do an ideological <hes> <hes> check when jewish people want to move back to the state moved to the state of israel similarly what happens when you have foreign leaders or politicians who support this movement then you know in this is the situation <hes> we get into and it shows that bipartisan support for israel is really being being fractured now the fact that <hes> netanyahu yeah. I was allowing trump to play these party politics. It's no longer a democratic and republican support israel. Now republican is more republican versus assist democrat but democrats stuck now if they all <hes> because donald trump canal turn round and say well. You're all israel haters if you back these two to around the four women who he went after all and he obviously sees this as kind of winning message for him at least three his supporters for re election next year and trying to fracture the traditional <hes> israel and democratic link doc finally when it comes to donald trump's. There's always a deal to be done. Isn't there in the latest case. It appears the u._s. President wants to go shopping this time for greenland. Mr trump reportedly orderly told eight he'd be interested in the autonomous region. There was no official comment from friday on friday from denmark's centre-left government <hes> right. What do we think he wants it for. It is green to them for sale. That's the first question both donald trump. I didn't know whether it'd been put up on the auction block or dot ebay country. This is a debate to be done another day but it's just the world's biggest islands so you could say here two million square kilometers which to do whatever you want to do is. What do we think he wants to do. I wonder i wonder whether he may maybe thinks it's actually made of purist green and he's he's going to do a gulf usually or just wants to own the biggest island. I mean pretty pretty find out on on a map of the world. I think australia said no and he says no. You're not you're your continent. You don't count green torpedo but i'm not quite sure where this idea came from. I didn't think anybody is in the press one newspaper in the u._s. and seem so taken off because it is just the kind of thing which you could imagine trump thinking and say everything when it comes to donald trump for me has turned a little bit willy wonka if i don't know if anybody's read charlie and the chocolate factory but they have these connect collection of entirely obnoxious spoiled children who just demands it's the toughest thing be given to them by their parents and a little bit of me just thinks that that actually just reading enroll dull book when we look at donald trump except with pretty horrific consequence except the all these characters characters come to a very very bad and so that gives us who does serious now i mean some people are suggesting that ah if if donald trump were to sort of our won't go by greenland how acceptable that kind of rhetoric has now become. Are we looking at an the era where we can say or certain well. I want to buy that well. Lots of other things have gone wrong. As as i say denmark isn't sally to begin with how would you buy it and then what you do next and so on you got the airbase there <hes> of course the big american airbase but <hes> apart from that. I'm not quite sure what else you would want to exploit in return for your money now indeed and the danes have said it's not for sale <music> but i'm wondering what not officially but i think what politicians have just raised an eyebrow moved on and got on with their their day's work and but it did lead me to think that if you were donald trump with a an everybody said yes daniele witch bit of the earth would you buy and what would you do with it. I quite like to buy a house in london very unrealistic a- not thinking about dream. I will join you in that in that effort. How 'bout you grow. We would talk discussing the program. I think we both would like to buy hamster teeth. I would like to buy homes to in order to preserve exactly as it is for those of us even have been to hampstead heath could briefly describe its semi wild area in north london which you can get to on the bus quite easily and go for a long walk and in the middle you hear nothing excepting excepting occasional plane <hes> overhead and you could imagine that you are already out in the countryside daniele. Do i assume that you're going to buy hamster teeth off. Jonathan put a massive house in the middle of it. You'll i will prevent you. I will not sell it to you. I see an excellent planning row around the corner daniele pellet managing editor of the institute if war and peace reporting and jonathan fenby chairman of china set and director t s lombard thank you both very much for joining us on monocle twenty four. You're listening to the briefing the same view tedious towards halse well. The monaco travel guide series has stopped off in thirty plus cities and counting in order to dispense vents advice on travelling light on the from the finest spot in which to sip a cocktail with a contact work of sweat or take a dip. I'll comprehensive travel guide series packed with tips essays and tippett's getting the very best from no destination monocle travel. Guide series is published by shelton. The monaco travel guide series cities of fun. Let's explore. Tom joined now by ruth. Michelson monaco's correspondent normally based in cairo but i am delighted to say she joins us in the studio today in london for a look at the stories always shaping the agenda in the middle east and north africa ruth. Welcome to london good to see you out. What's what's on your list fasting on my list <hes> we we should probably talk about the fact that donald trump yet again. Her said he hasn't decided whether to unveil his middle east peace plan before or after after the israeli elections set for next month <hes> he actually also said this before the last is really elections that were in april <hes> <hes> and of course this comes amid amid rather frequent criticism that there might not be a lot to this plan or that it might not be accepted while he's efforts in the pass or other those by his son to try to <hes> come up with the middle east peace mesa middle east peace plan plan have not been met with much praise heavily. Well exactly i mean i think there's concerns that <hes> the actual planet self will be insubstantial and the most important won't be accepted by the palestinians <hes> they they want <hes> present at the peace prosperity <hes> conference in bahrain last month <hes> neither were some <hes> parties from the gulf like kuwait and oman <hes> there's been some support from <hes> states like bahrain and and the saudis but fundamentally if the palestinians <hes> onto enthusiastic about this plan really where can it go <hes>. Let's move on to this astonishing legal cases taking place in gibraltar. According gibraltar is due to allow for the release of an iranian tanker captured by british royal marines in gibraltar last week but the u._s. stepped in. Where are we up to this now. <hes> as far as i believe the latest is that <hes> the oil tanker will be released. <hes> after tuhan has said that <hes> the cargo will not be transported to syria um and so now we are waiting to see also if i believe it's called the standard impair the a a british ship captured by the iranians <hes> will also be released in return. The iranians are clearly extremely happy about this. <hes> the iranian for mrs said the u._s. has failed to accomplish its objectives through its economic terrorism it attempted to abuse the legal system to steal our property on the high seas and the straight deformities traumatises incredibly important body of water through much through which a large proportion of the world's fuel goes and i found it quite i wrote find quite astonishing that it was a court in gibraltar that was just redirecting the part of the possible this i mean i think what it comes down to is that you know. We don't think about how important these kinds of shipping ping lanes are <hes> especially <hes> what's called a choke point like the strait of hormuz until <hes> there's limited access or there's the threat of limited access thirty thirty percent of the world's seaborne traded crude oil goes through the strait of hormuz every day if <hes> if there are ships being intercepted if there's cargo being attacked <hes> then that has an effect on global trade and that means that all of the countries in area have a vested interest in trying to stop this from happening which of course the iranians no. Let's move on to saudi. Aramco earnings are down. Is that any great surprise well threat of global recession russian or genucel around for economies everywhere no absolutely not <hes> no. I mean you know saudi aramco's there is an element that they can't hide bad figures this <hes> the first half profits down twelve percent but what they're trying to do is they've announced at the same time they want to buy <hes> they have an aim to my twenty percent stake in india's reliance industries <hes> and this is all a bit of a ploy before a potential <hes> i._p._o. That has been talked about for a long time that aramco have been dangling in front of various global markets for what feels like years now and that perhaps by diversifying in this way and and <hes> buying this stake in this enormous indian company that perhaps this will perhaps distract from the twelve percent loss in profits and help their <hes> mirage of a future. Do you think the work really pull it off the i._p._o. The i._p._o. Is is is like it's like a friend in the room all the time we never speaks but the but the idea of of distracting us all away from from the profits by saying oh look we're buying something from india. Do you think people will buy it. I mean and i think it certainly had a lot of the indian press extremely excited given the size of the deal and india is really attractive energy market they would be beating <hes> american can and russian interests <hes> with this deal <hes> it would also mean that they as part of this deal they would become one of the world's largest oil oil exporters again taking the top spot from iraq and so that would obviously help them and then intern help the i._p._o. And tell us about that that you knew in elections the ballot papers going to roll along sutton is so after a recent decision this week they will be twenty six candidates candidates <hes> after the electoral commission removed seventy one <hes> and there are some there are some colorful characters running <hes> running to be tunisia's next president <hes> including current tv star. He says that he <hes> he wants to be the kind of lula da silva of eighteen easy but he's been compared to trump or even kind of bellicose figure right. Tell us a little bit more about where where chin is in terms of <hes> the former presidents spectator subsidized last month <hes> he was he was the man who theoretically lead the country out of dictatorship but what kind of june easier does is the next president inherit well first of all it inherits tunisia <hes> that is still striving to <hes> shake off the reins talk show that it's still in the past becoming a democracy but what kind of democracy is really the question. <hes> you know it's it's also <hes> really bugged by the fact that you knew the economy has not been doing very well <hes> especially since two thousand eleven and that what you know what people want to here is that the new president can get the economy back on track. Bring jobs to young people will think that a lot of young people around the world quite interested in ruth michaelson. Thank you so much for joining us in studio on monocle twenty four uh. Let's look at the week's stories in statistics now joined on the line by a friend and regular medical contributor ben page. Ben is an expert on trends and behavior and the chief executive different episodes maury. Welcome back to the program ben right. You want to talk. I mean the briefing is is broadcast at midday in london's every like to keep things quite clean but we do broadcast around the world as well and people can listen to things whenever they want to so you are going to introduce us to the world of pornographic thicke trend is that right yes we've been looking at vice and people's attitudes to things that some people might think morally unacceptable. We've done it around the world so we've looked alcohol that in some parts of the world is a is a certain absolutely a no no we've pornography online betting violent video jio games marijuana and cannabis and we found in some ways obviously unsurprisingly that islamic countries are very keen on liquor but interestingly the british wish come out so i have to fly the flag of britain as i'm in london as most likely to say that pornography is acceptable in moderation globally right there you you want what okay what. How do you interpret those figures. Well western europe in australia. Generally you've got people on and sweden of course historically famous famously moderate on it and you concern. I think it's just interesting to look at how things where people are now on how things exchanged so on alcohol which british interesting the identify as our greatest problem fault when we've asked them in other surveys what they're proud of there must ashamed of the british turn out to think that booze in all its forms is pretty good going <hes> whereas of course you'll find that i mean on some of these things. You have some quite interesting differences. The americans are not rob less keen on pornography <hes> but very happy about online dating services for example so this there are some quite interesting acting differences japanese not very keen on on on pornography interestingly. I'm releasing. Its mode acceptable <hes> so you know it's just it's just trying to look at what people find unacceptable or acceptable overall. You can have as much chocolate as you like though there are some people who don't think eating chocolate should it'd be is morally acceptable doesn't like he doesn't like eating chocolate thursday. One person in ten in columbia says it's not morally acceptable to eat the vast amounts of chocolate and there are some of these countries where where people are very overweight as well where it's some it's sort of it's sort of identified as an issue right <hes> so collaborate certifies a crack above chocolate in columbia. I'm going to get a few stand very still very very few. The serbians you can do what you like in serbia could any fund one person or one hundred hundred me problem with chocolate and serbia <hes>. Let's talk about the other vices that you've been looking actually what i would. I'd like to ask you why you chose to examine the vices that you chose to examine because you you had quite a long list there. What was it that made you think ah we have these things like the average shopping the cost of the average shopping baskets every single year and it changes depending on people's trends and tastes shore. Do you have the same discussion around around the epp. Sauce murray a table well. We're not much into marijuana this year but we do. We think we're quite interested in cocaine. <hes> occasionally and interesting the marijuana in britain and again for example people are as likely to think that smoking tobacco is as bad as as marijuana and that's a massive shift over the last thirty years so tobacco has gone down and down and down in terms of its success acceptability <hes> in in this country indeed many western countries and indeed marijuana wander has become more and more acceptable in america. Where of course it's legal in some states. It's generally not an issue so it's it's it's just looking at how these things are shifting and of course ultimately some of our clients who make chocolate or salty snack we got we looked at salty. Snacks as well are interested in in where people have an issue with something and tell us about who's cross about crisps. We haven't done create what we've done snacks. We've done salty snacks. I'm going to have to assume that includes crisps but let's have a look so again. The serbians are pretty relaxed about <hes>. The malaysians interestingly seem rather less so nine twenty percent say in malaysia that they're not sure about eating lots of salty snacks <hes> and again you know it's it's an interesting an interesting sped. Americans hungarians the germans all fine with crisps <hes> overall the majority of people everywhere of course are but there are interesting. There are interesting cultural phenomenon that it's important to understand the world old is not is often not the same everywhere and i think sometimes this. This source of where we're comparing countries is interesting. Just remind us how dramatically different attitude attitude sometimes are particularly on things like pornography or alcohol of course. Was there anything that really surprised you well. I was interested in the british. Were sort of right talk in terms of of porn. I wouldn't say we were the most liberal country on earth but we do seem to be on on things like homosexuality generally our attitudes. It's one one of the things i've been doing this job for thirty two years and we've shifted more on things like circle of sexual attitudes in this country than than perhaps on almost anything else when i was born it was illegal go to be gay in britain in the in the mid nineteen sixties and we had last year in a poll sixty percent of us saying that it we absolutely find harry had married a man rather than meghan markle so you do over time you can see these massive shifts. Tell us a little bit. Who's gone. That sounds like the united kingdom is magnificently progressive progressive in its embracing every new thing that comes along and has anybody gone really really backwards and other in other directions in other areas not in this survey but we have i've seen on some issues like like gender equality or indeed acetates homosexuality that in some countries russia would be one of them that attitudes have actually sometimes times encouraged by the government have gone backwards since perhaps under communism for example. Thank you very much indeed for joining us to that. Ben page teaching us about about all our morals than love salty snacks. You're listening to the briefing premiering at ten a._m. London mm time on saturdays are editor in chief tyler brule ortolan edwards when tyler is on the road presents a weekly thirty minute program that celebrates print media. I'll pay per is incredibly expensive. The paper is too important but it looks good. It's consistent it creates the impression that we've been around for very very very long on-time join tyler boulay to edwards for the stack monaco twenty fourth weekly print industry review and analysis show every saturday at ten am the am london time. Let's have a look at today's newspapers going through the papers for monaco's marcus if he hello marcus afternoon ama- so so one story i'm covering today is both on the financial times the daily telegraph in pretty rush any other british newspaper as well. It's about various blends to try to prevent a no deal brexit in the end of october an interesting development is that nowadays this four conservative party rebels who have said that they would be willing to welcome jeremy corbyn plan to bring down the government's and become come caretaker prime minister in his efforts to stop or no deal brexit. That made me smile this morning because i wondered what would happen if anybody would support wrote jeremy corbyn in his pledge exactly that's happened so that's an interesting development. Obviously these these tory rebels are all guessing affair abused dare. I say from their party members now. Some of them have been branded on conservative so that's something positive for jeremy corbyn when he's when he's trying to find a way of preventing yeah no deal brexit but at the same time it seems the biggest single barrier for his splendid is the liberal democrats who have fourteen empties in the parliaments and to their leader chose winston thus described mr corvinus a brigadier at heart and said that he cannot be trusted which may be understandable considering. He's rather lackluster approach when it comes brexit in in recent years well. Let's continue with something else. We've been talking so much about brexit any. Let's continue with some other stories so today's edition of the guardian is writing about many top news stories of the day. There's an article intentions in hong kong and also what india's narendra modi e._s._p._n. Saying about kashmira but let's look at a smaller story on on the world section of this newspaper boston low nice throwing to put brake on hundreds of unlicensed rickshaws. They've got a problem over there not only problem in london exactly as well but maybe even more so in barcelona considering the figures so boston owner toco sale is going to take action to reduce the number of rickshaws on the streets with breath reports that as many as two thousand mostly unlicensed drivers are now blaming that rate and and the deputy mayor of of the city's moaning that barcelona isn't into bombay and they're trying to find different ways of trying to catch those drivers driving without a license. I've always wanted to know what the appeal in those five. Have you ever bet you have been temperatures. I'm not i'm not done many many many many many years ago when it was very very young and very naive in london's soho how anyway i don't remember that was such a long time ago. Let's let's focus on the newspapers. <hes> so what's also interesting had basel doesn't need to have clear loss when it comes to the rickshaw so so there's a seeing the same problem with electric scooters at the moment. The problem is that rickshaws exist in a legal vacuum so technically speaking they may like bikes you cycle lanes and white pavement spots busted who wants to get rid of them and move them to separate bylaw anything else well. Something virtual reality is going to be everywhere soon. It seems so this. This is an interesting pick from today's edition of the times hospital in the u._k. Is now trying to approach is offering altering testing a futuristic approach to take women's minds of labor so if you are in panic kobe don't giving birth giving birth thank giving birth if you are in pain and exhausted and have a gathering wreck for a spouse you'd be forgiven for wanting to teleport to an empty tropical beach where the only sound is the lapping waves waives. This newspaper is writing now in wales. There's a universe there's hospital university hospital of wales that is testing this v. our approach to basically weekly ease for pain management so expectant mothers at this hospital can attempt to take their mind off cramps and painful constructions using the three hundred ernest sixty degrees simulations which as well as exotic beaches include swimming underwater wondering among being wins roving on mass or even watching watching the northern lights. I'm wondering if work say honesty suggesting people are seriously suggesting that while you're in the middle of having a baby you imagine follow the northern light so you can walk around with some penguin job done marcus hippie. Thank you very much do returning us in the studio. You're listening to the briefing it. It's friday which means it's time for the global countdown. Monaco's financial augusta per share comes to the studio to to tell us top five singles from a specific country faye. Where are we going today. We are heading to singapore an m. I have to be on a singapore. You know they don't produce many any musicians. I mean they do have a couple of bands like the san willows which replay here monocle twenty four but the quite like a very top five rights okay. We love a very top five. Don't we so why are we starting well. We don't start very well. Unfortunately we have a clip for you. It's ed sheeran and justin bieber with. I don't care maybe the best with the underwrites. I lied. I'm led to believe you were done ceiling. Perhaps there's something about the sound that makes people kind of oh go in string or bio two over themselves in the thames cheering absolutely everywhere and these collaborations driving me bananas because if song starts radio and you think it's it's great and oh it's ed sheeran again but how the singaporeans are absolutely laughing it up absolutely number one with them on many places. I've seen what's come. Nimbus four is more. My kind of music feels like you're having some sort of electric shock when you listen to it <hes> it's a light electric. The company says much more. Let's hear it. This is the k pop band seventeen with hit aw don't don't stop that please ever goodness. May i see what you mean about it. Being you being exposed to something powerful electric and tell us a little bit more about seventeen eighteen and and obviously huge difference in elective singapore even though it's seventeen <hes> the band is formed by thirteen kind of singers singers but they divide the band. You know they're the hip hop guys. There's the vocal guys and they want to just do the dance so they're not necessarily singing so if you look at the videotape of hit for example he's doing amazing choreography. I mean i definitely could not do even ten percent of what they do and and as i say i think we're actually springtime could moment so it is quite difficult. Seventeen can be done under the trades descriptions act if there's not that many of them actually doing anything <hes> but <hes> right. Let's move onto number three who they it's a brand. New abaunza grow group again from south korea of course very huge in singapore. It's easy and the song's called i._c._s. Let's hear it pretty reasonable. They sing songs like like beep. Beep and blah blah in the song quite bonkers really but i find it personally the song quite creative in fact the south korean music critics they quite like disband and really be nominated for few kind of music awards ready and again. The first thing was released in february. I mean so very new and obviously the going out in wisconsin singapore. I mean when did hit singapore in with the inference that clearly if you look at the top fire singapore's there they are used to k. Pop is definitely not <hes> for example. I know the k pop fans you in european in the u._s. But it's fairly new impetus brought k pop to the masses if i may say but singapore for they're used to it <hes> and they know that south koreans do best when it comes to music when it ranks in sort of like their cannon house disease. It's the icy <hes> rate within within within the other songs that have done. I mean th they are the coolest banning towel i mean he just released three singles or so. They're very new. I think we should wait tennessee what they do next busiest bandon turn three singles okay <hes>. Let's move on to number two again very unusual. This is an australian band that has been going on since nineteen eighty three. Apparently they're one of the most famous christian bands in the world so very different than than capable. Let's hear it is hill some worship king of kings <music>. Yes very different. Tell tell me about king of kings so he'll sung worship. This ban has been going on not eighty three but king of kings this doing so well and it's fascinating for abandoned has been going went on for more than you know more than thirty years <hes> i may say and i say why are they so popular in singapore and then i was typing you know they always do kind of performances <hes> in singapore if images <hes> did a tour over there <hes> and again he'll some worship. They do very well in the u._s. They've been nominated for the billboard music awards awards <hes> as best christian band best christian album best christian everything related to music there in the middle of a bit of a wobble at the moment actually because the the the lead singer of worship has just carry fried. He hasn't completely renounced his faith but it's on very shaky ground well that doesn't spell good news for a band which has built its entire career on being a christian band. Maybe he should keep quiet for his fans advice. He's not gonna tune singapore anymore. Absolutely end the singaporeans are a a big fan of religious music in this in the top. I have to say was kind of exception. Look at the whole charter thing. They're more inclined to listen to cape up so that's why was very surprised to listen to this kind of king of kings who've lyrics god of glory <hes> you know praise the power of the king of kings <music> singapore. You do like a nice wide variety of music don't you but when it comes to number one it's the one that's number one everywhere else. Isn't it exactly very steamy. It's it's senorita young. I mean it's it's the perfect songs summer song. It's teaming and apparently showmen doesn't camila cabello kind of dating. We're not sure maybe the label asked. You know. Maybe you guys could date. Would that'd be good publicity for the song. Tell us move. I yeah i mean they haven't confirmed officially but i've seen a picture of both of them. Kissing the light was not very very good so maybe maybe he wasn't commuter but let's see i think we should talk to our gossip columnists <hes> here. We don't have the gossip columnist. I should should investigate this further will report back sending to those going great guns. Absolutely everywhere isn't it. It's it's the issues the song of the summer. It's just a ashamed that in the u._s. It didn't manage to hit number one because of old town road. Which can you believe it still number one emma after nineteen weeks i can believe anything i mean what colin would it take for them to leave number one whenever not remix. What's your favorite talk from the top five of the top five of the one that you want to set the number three eight say see. I thought they had something quite special. I liked the electric shock of seventeen and show you do sufficient. I thank you for joining us in the studio. So we have time for today's program. Many thanks to all our guests and our producer augustin much daniel rights to research lingo found on charlie phil mccord and our studio manager. It was steph chengdu. I'm nelson goodbye. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend. It took aw.
Bruce Friedrich On The Clean Meat Revolution
"The two big questions food aren't how do we feed nine point seven billion people by twenty fifty and what do we do about climate change raising crops to feed them to animals so that we can eat animals is just vastly inefficient. My vision of future is people well-fed people. Well, educated everybody has healthcare. It's a future where people have the capacity to take a step back and reflect on their lives. People are practicing mindfulness from the highest to the lowest echelons and part of that is the good food future for sure a part of that is if people are eating meat it's plant based meat or it's clean meat, but I want everybody up at self actualization. And I'd love to see that having twenty-fifty. That's Bruce Friedrich this week on the ritual podcast. Rich role podcast people. How you guys doing? What's happening? How are you? How is your life going is it headed in the proper trajectory are you prepared for the holiday season that is quickly descending upon us? Have you started to think about what you would like two thousand nineteen till like, well, I'm here to help. My name is rich role. I'm your host. This is my podcast. Welcome to. It's got a great show for you guys today. Today's guest is Bruce Friedrich, Bruce is a leading innovator in food systems and policy. He is the executive director of both the good food institute as well as a founding partner of new crop capital, both of which are organizations focused on replacing animal products with plant and culture based alternatives. Which is what we're going to talk about here today. Bruce, graduated Magna cum laude. From Georgetown law and five eight of Kappa from Cornell college, he holds additional degrees from Johns Hopkins University as well as the London School of economics, and he was inducted into United States animal rights hall of fame in two thousand four today, marks BRUCE'S second appearance on the show has I being a little over a year and a half ago that was too. So to eighty six and much has transpired on the frontier of food tech food innovation as well as clean meat. So I wanted to have a back to bring us up to speed. And I'm glad I did. As this episode is chockablock with incredible information that I think will leave you with a greater understanding of where we currently sit with respect to the implications of our current agricultural systems as well as the many changes of foot and all of this is coming up in a couple of few. But first while we are on the subject of good, particularly good food today. Episode is brought to you by thrive market, a true godsend for those interested in eating healthy as possible as affordable as possible thrive market is your one stop online destination for all the top premium healthy organic products that I and you would usually get from grocery store or Tony high end natural food market, but unlike those brick and mortar retail outlets, which basically always Mark up, your typical organic and non GMO products with sky high premium prices thrive market sells the exact same products at wholesale prices. With the added bonus that it's all available to you without leaving your home ship direct to your house drive market. Also makes it super easy to shop because every single product on their site is tagged by over ninety different values. So in one click, you can sort the entire catalogue by categories like non GMO, organic vegan, gluten free whatever I'm telling you guys. Once you try it. You're never going to go back. Get twenty five percent off your first purchase. Use my special URL thrive market dot com for slash rich role and one more thing these guys give back for everyone who signs up thrive market donates a membership to a low income family veteran or teacher, which is a big step towards making healthy living affordable for everybody. And I love that. So to say fifty to seventy five percent off your healthy grocery Bill, plus an additional twenty five percent off your first purchase, which is absolutely insane deal. Go to thrive market dot com. Ford slash rich role. If somebody said to me rich, have you thought about indoor cycling, my response would have been something like thanks, but no, thanks because I live in cycling heaven right outside my door, some of the best routes and climbing in the world with this temperate climate that makes it pleasant all year round. But as I thought about it a little bit more. If I lived in a city, which I'm doing part time these days, or if I had to deal with winter, or I was super time crunched cycling is after all very time consuming. Maybe this might make sense. And then peleton reached out to me interested in sponsoring the show, and they semi over one of their cutting edge indoor bikes I had been to the peleton studio in New York to take my girl, Robin ours on class in the past which I loved but had never really ridden inside at home. And I gotta tell you this bike blew my mind. The convenience the feel the beautiful twenty two inch touchscreen. Silent belt, the ease of use the compact size fits, basically, anywhere. And of course, the workout is crazy. Good everything. These guys do is super topnotch and on top of that peleton has in endless supply and variety of workouts to choose from forty five minute classes, twenty minute burns. Hip hop rock and roll low impact high intensity to Bata classes with Robin or just right. Along to beautiful landscapes. The point is you pick the class structure and style that works for you. So bring the cycling studio to you with peleton's, cutting edge indoor cycling bike there are no more excuses. Peleton is offering listeners a limited time offer go to one peleton dot com. Enter the code ritual at checkout, and you will get one hundred dollars off excess Arrese with your Pelivan purchase. Get a game changing workout at home anytime you want. That's n e peleton dot com and use the code ritual at checkout and get started. I am terrible graphics. This is not my strong point. But I understand very much. Appreciate the importance of great design the aesthetics behind everything. I do how I present my work to the world is super important. It's paramount. And I believe it should be for you to visuals reflect who you are what you represent. They are your calling card, and they should be taken seriously. But. Finding a designer who gets you and your business is not easy. That's why I'm a big fan of design crowd with over five hundred fifty thousand designers from Sydney to San Francisco ready to help you with awesome, creative ideas. Great custom design is just a few clicks away. And it's easy. All you. Gotta do is head over to design crowd dot com. Post a brief describing the design that you need like a logo or landing page, or maybe a t shirt or poster then invite their global community of designers to respond within hours, you'll receive your first design and over the course of three to ten days. A typical project will receive sixty to one hundred different designs from designers around the world that is a lot of choice. You get to pick the best design and approve payment to the designer most of design crowds clients are entre preneurs and small businesses, but even big agencies web, developers or other creatives discreetly outsource design projects to them as well. So. No need to play it small give design crowded try with your next project. Go to design crowd dot com for slash rich role. That's DAS and see our WD dot com for slash ritual for special save up to one hundred dollars offer or simply enter the discount code ritual when posting a project on design crowd. Okay. Bruce Friedrich picking up where we left off in episode eighty six this is a deep dive into food innovation. It's discussion as much about are currently flawed system of food production as it is about plant based food innovation as well. As the advent of so-called, clean meat animal foods, raise not through traditional means. But rather by way of cultured cells harvested without slaughter, and the technology and the economics behind it. We canvas the current state of affairs, we discussed the ethical implications of these mind, bending innovations and. And the fraternity that they present with respect to forging a more ethical and environmentally sustainable future. If these subjects are new to you. They just might come across a little bit like science fiction, but make no mistake. It is indeed happening, and Bruce has this really great team facility for painting this picture of the future and the laudable mission of good food institute. Gsi in a very clear understandable way final. No this show. In fact, almost all my shows. These days are viewable on YouTube for those who wanna watch my conversations go to YouTube dot com slash ritual. Subscribe. If you haven't already and the podcast is also now available on Spotify. So enough from the let's Bruce do the talking. My friend. It's really good to be here. Thank you. I think the last time we did this was two years ago. How long ago was it was while ago? Yeah, it was a little while ago. Maybe eighteen months little more. Remember, it was the dead of winter in New York. That's all I remember. It was very cold. Well, much has happened since then. So I'm excited to have you back to bring us up to speed on everything clean, meet everything that's happening in the plant based food movement. You guys just had a big conference. Right. We did tell me about well. It was a conference focused day. One was predominantly on plant base me day to was predominantly unclean meat, and we had kind of everybody who's anybody in the plant base meat and the clean meat market sectors. And then we invited we had two panels on plant based meat in two panels on clean me where we invited people from industry on in the one case, and we invited scientists and the other case where we think they have the capacity to basically move these market sectors forward in a really big way, but they're not currently involved. So for example, people are doing extruders and people are doing crop sciences and people who are doing Zeno free media for therapeutics. And basically the real goal of the conference. We wanted people to network we wanted to connect investors with startups. We wanted to get scientists more excited about the space, but we really wanted the. The market sectors that are currently existing and the scientists who are currently active. They're not looking at plant based meat or clean, meet at the moment. But they would be essential to plant based in clean meat accelerating. So we brought them and it was a phenomenal success in that regard. Yeah. It seems like that's one of one of the good food institute takes multipronged approach to. Developing this new way of thinking about food and how we're going to innovate for the future. But one of the more compelling prongs in your approach is trying to cultivate. Cooperation, not just amongst all of the major players in the clean meat and plant based food movement. But also with the people that are outside of it that can contribute to this rapidly growing. Revolution that we're experiencing right now. So so what came out of that? Like, what what what were you know, what are some of the things that are happening right now in this world that are perhaps news since we last book. There's a tremendous amount that's nuisance. We last spoke. So all of departments are ramping up which I'm very excited about what you just said is true. We see ourselves certainly is helping the current players. So the current startups in the current companies that exist in plant based meat and clean mate to help them all to coordinate across a variety of sectors from science to policy to networking with sort of big corporations big food corporations corporations, but we also really want to create a pipeline of scientists. We really wanna get the therapeutics industry that exists thinking about cross application of what it is that they're doing to food sector in other words to clean meet we want to get people who are currently funding for the environment or sustainability or. Global health thinking about the value of funding plant based meat and clean, meet aren't. So we're doing a lot across our programmatic areas that and there's a tremendous amount that's happened. Since the last time, we talked had thirteen or fourteen staff. Now, we have fifty three probably be more than seventy by the end of the year in the US and hopefully somewhere on the order at twenty internationally. So a lot happening, but the conference really worked for that. There were people who run extruder companies and people who run media companies scientists who are working in tissue engineering and people who are doing plant biology, and they came to the conference, and they learned about how much good they can do in the world. Well, also doing very well for themselves if they refocus some of their efforts into plant base meat and clean mate, really excited by Email that I got from Berkeley professor in the plant sciences department. And she said that she came to the conference just sorta to explore what was happening and she walked away completely enthused and talking about how she will be educating students about this and encouraging them to take the class, we designed Berkeley and. Based meat and clean meat and to think about focusing their careers here, and that was just replicated over and over and over again with people that really big food companies people who are in therapy Dicks who are in crop sciences who are thinking about chemical engineering and the chemical engineering currently in the food industry and other thinking about plant based meat and clean meat and how they can plug in. It's very exciting. That's cool. So yeah, you guys created or behind the very first. College course on clean, meet right? And is out of Berkeley, Berkeley. And we're launching when this semester at Stanford Penn State. We've got a Mook that will be coming out in the next six weeks massive on open. Online course. Okay. So it will be an eleven an eleven week sort of crash course implant base meat and clean mate. And it seems like it's it's a subject matter that really is multidisciplinary in right because you have to understand chemistry. You have to understand cell biology. Like, you have to understand engineering, you have to understand, I don't know brewing. What do you need to understand to really wrap your head around what clean meat is? And what is going on? And how we're going to innovate this future. Well, it's not super hard to understand it sort of a basic level. But as with any sort of production scale food supply there is a tremendous amount that you need to understand about sort of each sector. So for plant based knit me we need to be doing crop. Optimization. And we need to figure out what are the proteins. That are going to be best turned into plant base meat, and we need to figure out what that looks like then we need to look figure out how you put all these things together in order to make something that mimics meat, and you need to figure out what the production technology is going to be on thriller sort of fascinating to us when we first started looking at plant-based meat and clean mate. We sort of thought we had plant base meet figured out because they're a bunch of companies doing it and clean. It was going to be really complex and difficult because nobody essentially was doing it. Memphis meets was just getting started. Right. There was super meat and Mosa meets just getting started. None of the three of them had incorporated. But what we found is that the plant based meat is actually a lot more complex than clean meat because clean me we've got cross applica- ability from therapeutics from tissue engineering, so everything happening and George church's lab at Harvard Medical School, and you could just sort of take all of that and say, okay, we're going to food now and start producing cl-. Lean meat with plant basement, you've sort of got the pioneers beyond meat and impossible foods. But there is limitless other stuff that could be happening and even impossible foods and beyond meter pretty tiny. When you compare them to sort of big meat industry or sell their deke's. So a tremendous amount to learn at its most basic level though, plant based meat as let's take plants. There's nothing in meat that doesn't exist in plants Meade is lipids and amino, minerals and water. Let's figure out how we take those constituent parts put them together and process them. So that they buy amendment meet. So that they give people everything they like about me, but using plants and because it's so much more efficient. It will be less expensive. And then clean meats is similar except you take the products of tissue engineering. So how are we going to grow cells? How are we going to put them on scaffold? So that they can grow. How are we going to put them into a bio reactor like what is this look like food grade, which obviously has to be significantly less expensive than tissue engineering. Well, I wanna get into clean me. But let's start with my meet. It seems that p protein has sort of been the protein of choice as a foundational basis for creating these foods are we moving in different directions. Now, like where are we sourcing those nutrients lipids proteins, and what is that future? Look like, yeah. This is one of the sort of interesting aha moments for us when we were thinking about plant based meat and clean meat. And the fact that up until Ethan Brown comes along in two thousand nine so even was working evens, the founder beyond me, and he was working in clean energy. And he read the UN report about the climate change impact of the meat industry, and he pretty much similar Tena slayer at about the same time heard about some people teen research that was going on at the university of Minnesota of Missouri. And the idea of using Ps to basically get you the taste and the texture other things that people like about me, and he jumped in and that was sort of the first time anybody had ever looked at crops with the idea of optimizing them to create. Something that tastes like meat up until that point all of the companies were using either, wheat or soy, and it was the waste product of wheat and soy weed. It was the waste product of carbohydrates for Sawyer. It was a waste product of oil, and it was sort of. Let's cram this stuff together and make vegetarians eat it. Right. So we can just not have to throw stuff away, and maybe created an additional revenue stream. Yeah. Our main business exactly, but it was basically it was basically the waste product. So p protein was was the first of the proteins to really be optimized for plant based meat and other companies have jumped on board. But there's really no reason it should be people chain. So people are looking at LuPone. They're looking at lentils or looking at oats really kind of any source that has protein and impossible foods is using potato protein. And. And there is optimizing potato protein for for the impossible burgers. So even products that you don't generally think of as being particularly hypertension, really kind of any crop. And this goes back to that Bill Gates line when he tried beyond meets plant base chicken. And he wrote a blog called the future of food. And he said what I just tasted. It's not just a clever meat substitute. It is future food the title. The title of the article said ninety two percent plant protein plants have not been explored for their capacity, but turned into plan basement. So and that's still true. And it's also true that most of the work that's going on in this space is protected by going on in private universities. So one of the things we're doing Jeff is really trying hard through our science team to change that and we're launching fellowship programs. Where identifying the top twenty four universities globally for plant based meeting clean. Meet the top twenty four universities in the US for plant bass, meat and clean. Meet most of these universities are doing nothing now. But they have the they have the basic agriculture. -tural sciences or the basic tissue engineering, biochemistry. They have the right departments. They have the right funding. They have the right research focus, and we're going to be going to them and strongly encouraging them to put some of the resources into plant based meat and clean meat. Yeah. I would think that the universities that have strong agricultural studies programs would would be obvious choices. But I'm wondering whether you get pushback from them because there's a certain status quo, and that perhaps the universities with strong engineering programs and science science focus might be more open to the possibility of the future. You had those kind of conversations. Have you gotten pushback from the academic sector? Not so far it may happen. So but so far there's there's uniform and him. Jasim in this goes to sort of one of the other revelations of space is that the vast majority of people working in the meat industry are not especially excited to be working in the media industry. They have the noble goal of supplying high quality protein to lots of people in expensively. I mean, if that's your goal, and that's what it is for pretty much everybody at a place like Tyson or Purdue or Smithfield. If that's your goal. This is a better way to do that also generally the goal even at the land grant, universities. So I think cattle ranching and regenerative agriculture sort of the two exceptions to that that the vast majority of what happens in the meat industry doesn't have to involve raising live animals, and it doesn't have to involve slaughter. And so we generally meet with enthusiasm, especially when we start talking to people about how this is like there's a lot of discomfiture in the meat industry about undercover investigations about the link to antibiotic resistance about linked to climate change about animal slaughter, and this gets people. Past all of that. Well, doing still what is their fundamental goal? Which is let's let's produce high quality protein for people to eat. Right. Right. Well, it's undeniable that this is on the rise. I mean, I was looking at some of the statistics, and they're pretty staggering. I mean seventeen percent growth in the plant based food sector twenty three percent growth in plant based meets the plant based food sector is now a three point seven billion dollar industry. I mean, these are gigantic numbers. And when you see that growth curve that portends optimism for the future. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, some of these companies beyond me grew at seventy percent. And if they had been able to supply more, it would have been able to grow a lot more quickly than that. That was literally the match they could produce field roast was just south of that guardian was just south of that. And the entire plant based meat sector as you said grew at a rate of more than twenty percent. If you stay on that trajectory, which is roughly the trajectory that plant based milk. It was on. If you stay on that trajectory literally at one hundred one hundred percent by twenty fifty. So it's a third of one percent. Now, if you incorporate also restaurants, it's about it's about one percent just at grocery so third of one percent once you incorporate restaurants, you stay on that trajectory next year. You're only like point five right in about seven years. You're at one percent, but in thirty five years year at one hundred percent if you're growing at about one point two year, and that's the goal that is the. I go we'll be incorporating clean lead into it as well. But if Xs plant base meet and why is clean me. The goal is that X plus Y equals roughly one hundred there will still be some regenerative agriculture in there. I'm not sure what percentage that will be. But but mostly. Yeah. Mostly plant-based, meat and meat. They're more efficient. They're better all these myriad ways. I'm it's just a better way of producing me. Well, when Bill Gates made that statement, I mean that was definitely a watershed moment. And then he's put his money behind his words. I know he's invested in beyond me. I'm sure he's invested in you would know better like all kinds of these companies Peter Thiel jumping in now he just invested in in like lab grown meat for pets. Right. Who would have thought? So this is happening. We have the impossible burger in white castle, which is crisp announce nationwide that might have been white castles, fastest firm regional to national international. I know that for beyond meat and TGI fried. As it was TGI Fridays fastest from regional national introduction. Oh, that's amazing. And why aren't we seeing either beyond me or the impossible burger or some variation thereof in every fast food restaurant? I'm sure these conversations are happening in boardrooms across the world, I know McDonalds was running a pilot program like in the Netherlands or someplace like with a with a veggie burger. But it would seem that the time is ripe that that all of these major chains would at least be testing this at the moment. Well, they might want to be testing it. But what I encounter everywhere. I go people saying why can't I get the impossible. Burger. Why can't I get the beyond burger and they literally are producing as fast as they can possibly use. And they simply can't meet Jane situation right now, we just need scale. I don't know for. Sure, that's why McDonald's doesn't have the beyond burger or the impossible burger. Although there were people from McDonald's and other fast food and big meat industry players at our conference who were super enthused. About the experience in what they were hearing. But I don't know what's happening in the boardroom at McDonald's. But I do know that if they came to impossible beyond me and said we would like to have your burger nationwide. Neither those companies at least right at the moment. It would have to be a negotiation for the future. Well, let's take a step back and just kind of canvas landscape in terms of the benefits of moving in this direction from variety of perspectives, obviously, clean meat avoids having to kill animals for food. It's it's it's better on on the climates. There's a health argument. There's all of these reasons, but I think it would be good. And we've probably covered this last time we spoke, but there's a lot of new people that are listening now that might not have listened to our first conversation. Let's talk first about. The climate. Let's talk about the impact of animal agriculture on the climate. And how you see this new revolution in plant based foods being a curative to the ills that were currently facing and this dystopia in future that lies in that will fall into the lap of future generations if we don't figure this out. Yeah. The two big questions food are how do we feed nine point seven billion people by twenty fifty and what do we do about climate change and plant basement and coming up what do we do about global health like antibiotics is up and coming a concern? According to the UK government is a bigger concern for the human race van climate change. So those are sort of the big three, and they interlink at least the first to interlink so raising crops to feed them to animals so that we can eat animals is just vastly inefficient. And it's the same as, you know, the vast majority of what we eat doesn't go into gaining. The vast majority of what we eat. Sorry. Okay. The podcast. I know I'm very excited about that. I'm glad it's not live. The vast majority of what we eat goes into just allowing us to lead our lives, and that's true for farm animals as well. So the most efficient meters chicken, and yet it takes nine calories into a chicken to get one calorie backout explain that for people that are unfamiliar with how this whole thing works. Yeah. It makes intuitive sense. Right. So I weigh about one hundred and eighty five pounds if I do nothing, but lay in bed watching bad television. Not even moving I'm gonna burn like twenty four hundred calories every single what if you watch good television. Well, if it gets me excited adrenaline could little that up. I'm shouting at the television. If it sports eyecare who's gonna win or something. But I mean, basically metabolism remind metabolism is going to burn about twenty four hundred calories a day. And that's just busy logically. What I need just to keep my body going the same sort of thing is true for farm animals. The vast majority of the calories that you feed them, they need just to exist. And so that. It takes nine calories into chicken to get one calorie back out in the form of that animal's flesh. Sometimes the industry will do a mass to live weight conversion from mass delight wait, you can get to like two point two or something like that. But about half the calories in go into bones, and blood and feathers and other things that we don't eat. And then you really have to have dense calories to get that mass calorie out conversion what really matters is energy and energy out. We ate those crops directly you get nine calories instead of one calorie if you've done all those crops through a chicken, so that means nine times as much land nine times as much water nine times as much pesticide and urbicide nine times as much fossil fuel to power the combines. And then you're growing all of those crops, you're shipping those crops to feed mill your operating the feed mill you're shipping, the farm operating the farm shipping the animals to the slaughterhouse your operating the slaughterhouse just a vastly inefficient system the nine in one out vastly inefficient. And then you total all of the. Inefficiencies all of the extra stages of production all the gas guzzling pollution-spewing vehicles, all of the extra factories, and what you find is that a conservative estimate is that about thirteen point five percent. According to the United Nations about thirteen point five percent of all climate change is attributable to the meat industry. It's more than all transportation combined on a, and that's a that's a conservative estimate from what I understand. Right. I think in Cal spiracy. They said it was fifteen percent. I think it depends on how you run the numbers. But their team point five is pretty that's that's being conservative, and it still Trump's transportation, which is what we're all focused on. Yeah. And waist, which people are focused on. I mean food waste is forty percent of everything we grow throw away, and obviously that's bad. But this insolent early eight hundred percent food waste literally. You're throwing away eight calories for every calorie that you consume. And then you're stacking on top of this that all of these extra factories all of these other eighteen wheelers driving around moving stuff, and I'm gonna just. Environmentally the United Nations said no matter what environmental issue you're looking at from the smallest and most local to the largest and most global so it's loss of biodiversity water pollution. It's water use its soil desertification it's chopping down the rainforests every single issue. The meat industry is one of the top two or three global causes of that issue, including climate change per calorie basis, somebody sits down and they eat chicken, which is the least climate change inducing meat. That's four thousand percent of the climate change as if you were eating like owns like soy or Ps forty times as much on a per capita basis for that meal. L total insanity at it's total insanity. It is what does it look like with beef. Well, it's even worse. It's about twenty five calories in to get one calorie backout. So it's two thousand four hundred percents throwing away twenty four calories for every calorie that you consume three hundred and thirty times on a per calorie basis. I pulled that out of the resistance, and my brain, it's a Lancet article from I think twenty fifteen three hundred and thirty times. Much climate change per calorie protein for beef as opposed to four Lega. Gms soy, not soya end piece. So the UN report that was two thousand eight and it was yeah. Ten percent one in two thousand eight they said eighteen percent. And then I think in two thousand thirteen twenty fourteen they said thirteen point five, right? And then there was this Chatham house report is well, right? Couple years later while there's a world watch report that was put together Chatham house. Chatham house had a really interesting report Chatham house, the Royal Institute of international affairs, which is the foremost think tank and Europe, and they really report this at less animal product consumption goes down every country. No country is going to be able to keep climate change under two degrees celsius by twenty fifty which is the Paris climate agreement that is the primary no country can do it unless they're meat consumption goes down, and they recommended that we educate populations about this issue. And then WorldWatch did a report from a World Bank. Agricultural economy and International Finance Corporation agricultural economist in which they basically disputed the UN numbers, and they said actually climate change more than fifty percent of it is a tributary animal agriculture in. That's pretty easy to find just Google Worldwatch Institute climate change World Bank. It'll be like the first thing to pop we tend to focus on the thirteen point behind because it's still more than transportation it still awful. And and certainly should be should be motivating to people. Yeah. It's it's shocking. It's shocking that we're not talking about this more like what are the barriers to really being able to penetrate mainstream awareness to elevate this discussion to the highest level. And really, I know you're doing everything you can achieve if I, but what do you see as as the biggest impediments or the challenges that you face in trying to get people to really understand this and make change well, rich, we're not actually trying to get. To understand this and make change GSI theory of changes that we have beat are heading into the wall of education for decades, we have attempted to convince people to change their diets with educated people about climate. We've educated them about the inefficiency. I mean Francis morla pay wrote the book that turned me vegan more than thirty years ago. She wrote it almost fifty years ago now, and it makes the arguments that we're making now about the environmental impact and the inefficiency pitas been around since nineteen eighty telling people about the harm to animals environmental groups have been talking about the inefficiency cows spiracy what the health phenomenal films and yet in two thousand seventeen per capita meat consumption in the US was the highest it's ever been and US history. Eighteen is going to be even higher. So I mean global it's both it's both it's skyrocketing globally. But it's up in the US highest it's ever been. I mean, people are generally pretty shocked by that. Sometimes people even say, well is that because the populations bigger, and I have two per per capita. Seventeen. Hi, it's it's interesting that that is in tandem with with the growing. Market of plant based foods and plant base meets it is. Yeah, no. It's super interesting. And I think I think we will see this turn as we give people what they want but produced in a different way. So that theory of change impossible foods beyond me of just of these companies that theory of changes, let's actually give people everything that they like that meat dairy eggs, except let's make it less expensive. And so it will sell more, and let's just replace it. Because every single survey that's ever been done indicates that what people make their dietary decisions on the basis of its price. It's taste. It's convenience. A lot of us who were having this conversations or like will shop at the farmer's market. Or we shop at whole foods that we shop at our local co op, which my wife, and I do all three cases. And we get this vision of people who are very mindful about the food that they're eating, but even watch what people are eating at whole foods like that entire sector is less than two percent. So ninety eight percent is Albert Sens and target and whole and WalMart, and sort of that sort. Grocery really, big grocery. But even watch what people are eating at whole foods, even that even folks at whole foods. It's like the price matters and the taste matters. And whether it's healthy for them is not that high on the scale, which is why obesity rates, they actually these maps that are sort of color coded for obesity. They have to keep adding new colors getting fatter and veteran fatter and fatter. So you your like, all right. Forget about like trying to educate people. That's that's a nonstarter. We're making for the amount. Like us the nine calories in one calorie out. It's like, you know, a thousand calories into trying to get people to change their habits versus what you're getting out. So instead, you have this focus on on trying to leverage basically market forces to incentivize companies to innovate and to create products that people like that address these problems. Yeah. No, it's markets and technology, and that will be the transformation, and we talk about how do we feed nine point seven billion? People by twenty fifty. We talk in sort of an Uber way about keeping antibiotics working because governments care about those things, and we want governments to be sporting research and development in plant based meat unclean. Me that's a big part of what our policy department does. It's a big part of what our international engagement folks, doing an Indian Israel and China in Singapore in Brazil, which is the areas where we're particularly active and governments these planets meeting clean meet salute there. They are how governments meet their patients under the Paris climate agreement there, how governments provide safe food food safety is a big issue, especially in places like China and India, their how water is conserved their resources are conserved. So we talk about these things, but we talk about them to people aren't doing policy. So fund these things roll out the regulatory red carpet for clean meat if you are a philanthropist or an impact investor what you care about is climate change or sustainability global health. These are things that you should be investing in if you're Dacian, and you do grant making the in these areas, you should be doing grant making on these issues but for individual consumers. It's really go. Try the impossible burger, it tastes incredibly awesome. And then you can also talk about the impact on the climate or the impact on sustainability or whatever wants people are already thinking. Oh, this is like an awesome new food at this. Hot new restaurant at tastes amazing. Oh, and I can also feel good about the fact that I'm doing something. Awesome for the or it's healthier whatever else. Right. Well, this approach seems to be working. I mean, there's a huge upswing in venture capital funds that are investing in the sector. We're seeing a rapidly changing regulatory landscape, which I want to get into with you and the money is flowing and the innovation is happening and it's happening quickly. Yeah. At our conference, we were just delighted to see. So like the biggest plant base makes me company MorningStar farms. They are doing a lot of innovation internally. I mean, it was interesting to see sort of beyond me, an impossible foods come up, and they suddenly the old guard. Exactly. Yeah. And so sort of the the legacy companies saw what happened with impossible foods and beyond. To me, like Google ventures into is investing and impossible foods and DFA is investing Memphis meats, and so the companies that are already sort of stashed like MorningStar farms and Cardini tofurkey they're really upping their innovation game and response to this. I think they sort of saw their market sector as being roughly caps it maybe six hundred million dollars. Now, they're seeing their market sector as it caps at two hundred billion dollars, and they're taking that very very seriously all those guys sponsor the conference. They were at the conference. They're having these conversations and they're doing a lot of really exciting work internally. And that that relatively bland soy, Patty. Just ain't gonna cut it anymore. You better up your game. Yeah. Unless you wanna stay even now even vegetarians aren't going to settle for that say, yeah. Exactly. Right. But I mean, a lot of these people like I just love listening to like, Pat Brown and Brown relation. But Pat Brown from impossible and either Brown from beyond talk about their vision for their company and both those guys see themselves as running meat companies and their. Competition is the entire meat industry. Their goal is to take some significant slice of the two hundred billion dollars a year. That is the US meat market. Yeah. This is the future. This is happening. The train is pulled out of the station. And I think it's a up call for. The industry in all of its status quo to either understand that they need to get on board or that they're gonna be quickly antiquated. So you're seeing the Cargills and the Tyson's investing in these companies because they realize that if they wanna be if they want to continue to exist. They're going to need to jump on this train the cover story of BusinessWeek was about the CEO of Tyson a guy named Tom Hayes. So just in early September twenty eighteen the cover story was about him. And the final sentence of the story was if we can make meat without the animal. Why wouldn't we right? So second largest company in the world by far the biggest company in the United States and of their first they launched venture capital fund in two thousand sixteen of their first four investments to work meat companies was a plant based meat company, and they are all in on plan based meat unclean meat, and it just underlines the fact that like these guys like most of the people who are executives in this. Company. They could have ended up at anywhere. They could have ended up selling t shirts. Right. And they went to business school, and they sort of worked their way up the corporate ladder, and they found themselves at Tyson and they see themselves as nobly feeding the world high quality protein at a low cost they can feed the world higher quality protein at a lower cost with plant based meat and cleanly. They will make more money, and they won't have all the headaches of that come with farms and slaughter houses and all of the external costs that are involved. Yeah. All right. So let's assume there's a lot of people that are just being introduced to this idea of clean made for the very first time. Explain to me what it is how we create it. And why it's so exciting. Sure. So right now, if you want to get meet, you feed an animal, and the animal grows, so the animals cells, multiply and grow, and then you slaughter the animal, and you eat the meat as we've been talking about it as a horribly inefficient process that comes with a lot of external costs that are not. Good even at its factory farming is one of the most efficient. I mean, if you're going to raise an animal for food, they figured out the most efficient way to do it. Yeah. The below this animal up and the shortest period of time to create the most food out of it. And yet it's still inherently systemically completely completely inefficient. Yeah. I mean, it's the basic physiology that we just talked about. I mean, they now have chickens growing seven times as quickly as they would naturally. So chickens as opposed to like, the nineteen thousand nine hundred nineteen twenties and thirties there now crowing seven times this quickly as they would naturally. They are fed massive doses of antibiotics they barely move. So that their caloric conversion is as good as it can possibly be. And it's just the nature of busy allergy that you can't do much better than nine in for one out. That's just that's what you can do. And they might be able to get a little bit more efficient and not a lot more efficient. Right and pigs are worse. Farmed fish or worse. Cadillacs Lancer worse. So it's just a bad. Bad system. If you're goal is to convert food into protein if your goal is to convert one into me, it's a really bad way of doing that. So with cleanly what you do is you take you can take a biopsy from an animal, you take a couple of cells, very limited number of cells. You bay those cells in nutrients, which is basically the equivalent of feeding the animal except that all of the energy goes into causing those cells to multiply and grow. You don't have the fifty percent waste that comes with army animals. Fifty percent of the farm animal. We don't eat, and it's just a far more efficient way of causing the cells to multiply and grow. You can do it on a scaffold or not on a scaffold. If you want like chicken breast, you need a scaffold. You do it in basically scaffold being like a sort of simulated skeleton to grow these cells around. Yeah. Exactly. So it's basically a simulated skeleton except the scaffold that they use. You can actually you can either have them biodegrade or you can have them be edible. So either those work. So you don't end up with something have to throw away at the end like the bones or you have to turn into Dr Kafue? Or whatever they're going to do at the bones. And so then you put it in basically, a giant sort of meat firm. Enter at end stage. It looks like a beret. So you could literally have a meat and beer Burri and both of the vats both of this sort of meat, ferment or and the beer for mentor. I think folks are now calling the meat one a cultivator. So you've got the cultivator. You've got the firm. Enter and out is coming beer through sort of a chemical process and out is coming me through essentially chemical process, the food is a lot, and it takes fewer resources, but it also because there's no intestinal track. Doesn't have the salmonella or campylobacter or the coli or the other food more concerned about doesn't require anti-junta any antibiotics, which we haven't talked that much about that. But we're talking a lot more about antibiotics you wanna scare Lugo antibiotic the end of working antibiotics a real scare punch in China. China's using antibiotics that are banned in the US and the US is pretty liberal about which anti. Attics they will allow to be used in food. Seventy percent of antibiotics that pharmaceuticals are producing in the United States. Seventy percent of them are being fed to farm animals, not because the animals are sick. But because he animals are in awful conditions in which they would get sick. If they weren't fed prophylactic antibiotics. Yeah. And not to kill the lily. But we're ingesting those antibiotics and were basically, you know, paving the way for the cultivation of some kind of superbug that could create a pandemic or an epidemic. Yeah. I mean, we aren't we are consuming the antibiotics that's not the real health risk. Although it is it is certainly concerning nNcholas Kristof wrote a piece for the New York Times years ago about some research out of Johns Hopkins University where Hopkins analyzed chicken flesh and found that there was like the active ingredient and Benadryl and Prozac and aspirin antibiotics in the meat. So that's bad enough. But the real risk factor is the superbugs what happens. Is you're feeding the animals the antibiotics and the campylobacter elect tries to infect the animal on and it fails because the antibiotic and then that bug mutates. So that it can get around to the antibiotics, and then you scraped your knee or you cut your finger, whatever happens, and you're giving antibiotics and the antibodies don't work because now there are these super bugs, and what used to be a routine infection ends up you have to LOP off your arm. I mean, it's according to the UK government the end of working antibiotics is a greater threat to the human race. Then climate change right now about ten thousand people in North America and Europe are dying from super bugs they're saying it will be ten million people per year. If we stay on this trajectory, and it's slated to cost global economy one hundred trillion dollars by twenty fifty bigger threat than climate change. That's unbelievable and solvable. I mean, it's unbelievable in itself -able. So like we're talking about that either. I know that one isn't even being talked about like folks talking sort of government levels and foundation levels like a lot of people are talking about how do we solve climate change tank culture. Well, yes, but we need think-tank culture talking about antibiotics as well. So this is like. GSI? We're doing a ton of work. We have more than fifty staff are trying to raise seven point five million dollars this year. Like, we're doing a lot of stuff. But this is this isn't big we're not we're thinking big enough. But like the real solution is the philanthropists who care about climate change, the governments who care about these issues, they should be sinking clean energy level resources into this issue. We shouldn't be thinking in terms of seven point five million dollars looking itchy. We should be thinking in terms of seven hundred fifty billion dollars. This is a solvable issue. We can knock out the anti, but well, we can significantly ameliorate the main cause of antibiotic resistance we can significantly ameliorate one of the principal causes of climate change water pollution, antibiotic resistance food poisoning, all of these issues. There should be like Harvard Medical School should have a sixty million dollar clean meat research institute. Cornell should have sixty million dollar per year sixty million dollars to get it. Going plant basement research institute government should be funding. This foundation should be funding. This she's a big part of what is doing in our international offices. A big part of what our policy department is doing big part of what our science department is doing is trying to reach people like Mark Benny often people who are like interested in these issues and say this deserves really significant resources. Yeah. We need an interdisciplinary Manhattan project. We need a whole bunch of. I'm right. Yeah. We need an inter disciplinary Manhattan project for sure. But just like Georgetown law school has a climate center which most people haven't heard of because it's not one of the ten best climate centers. Or maybe I didn't just them. But there are tons of climate institutes at like every major university in the country, there should be institutes focused on plant base meat and clean, meet at least for start at the twenty four global universities that we've just identified people can check them out g dot org. It's on our blog. We're about to be releasing the top I think thirteen or fourteen in the United States for playing bass made unclean meat like all of these universities. None of them have it. Now, all of them should have institutes all of them should have disciplines Berkeley had the first plant based meat and clean me class that we designed last year, and we've got one at Stanford in Penn State ever university that has a science department should have how do we apply science to food plant based meat unclean. Meat right? So clean me sort of comes online. What was it like five years ago? Oh, less than that. No. The. Twenty twenty fifteen Valenti starts working on Memphis mates twenty-fifty, and Marcos starts working on Mosa mates in the guys that super meat start working on super mate. Memphis meets is incorporated in April twenty sixteen. That's the first company ever to incorporate on clean meat is. I thought there was the one in Japan that was not a little earlier. No, intricate culture. They were they actually just unincorporated as the company they might have started working on it in two thousand fourteen or twenty fifteen. I mean, the the first clean meat conference at mastery university in the Netherlands was in October twenty fifteen new harvests, which is a nonprofit organization and cellular agriculture. Their first conference was in November twenty fifteen. So this is a really really new, and they're now thirty companies thirty clean meat companies around the world and probably about twenty of them have raised five hundred thousand dollars or more so still supernova. But it's it's optimistic. It's an interesting thing because we're talking about it. It is happening. It's going to happen. We're going to figure out how. The scale this whole thing but much like the automobile the automation of cars. Nobody's tried this something we're talking about this very academic and kind of family and theoretical and most people's minds. People that that even know the slightest bit about all they know is okay. They're growing cells. It's a three hundred thousand dollar burger this is not an grossed out and it's too expensive. Yeah. This is going to solve anybody's problems. And I just to step back. We wish it were more academic like this. This is one of the things we're trying to solve for is. There are thirty companies. And what that means is there are thirty different companies trying to solve from the ground up. How do we grow from cells? What does it look like to get a mortally cells? What should the scaffolding look like what should the bio reactors, look like like, all what should the media? Look like that feeds the cells thirty different companies all protecting their own IP working in the sector. So one of the things that absolutely needs to happen is a serious infusion of cash into the academy that does that basically says, okay. Here's here's how we're working on media all of you companies can use this. Here's what bio reactor scale. It looks like all of you companies can use that. So GSI, we publish the. Over story in technology, which is the professional journal of the institute of food technologists. We published a peer review journal article in biochemical engineering journal in we're doing a lot more peer reviewed research. We also just got a two million dollar grant from philanthropist in New Jersey one million dollar grant from philanthropy philanthropist in New Jersey and two million dollar grant from philanthropist in Massachusetts. And we are announcing a call for proposals. And we will be going to all of the one our research institutions in the United States, and we will also be going to all of the universities. We've identified as being most promising plant based meeting clean mate. So we have three million dollars dedicated to this. It doesn't come out of our general operating budget. It's just for this. But it should be tens of millions of dollars. And it should be, you know, George church and other top tissue engineering BAAs and top crop biology and plant sciences like these folks should be spearheading this, and it should be what shouldn't even be tens of millions of dollars that should be Bill. Dollars because this is solution. This solution to really big problems. But we are excited about what we're going to be able to do with the three million dollars. Like, we will at least be able to put this onto the agenda at people at all of these schools. We're also launching fellowship programs at about twenty five science schools. We have six fellows at six of the top ten business schools in the focus is basically, if you are a tissue engineer, we want you to be thinking about this as possibly your vocation and applying to work at some of these companies, if you are a business person, and you're gonna come out of business school, and maybe you're going to end, you know, who knows where we're going to end we want to make sure those folks know about plant based meat and clean me as a place that they could apply their talents. Do a ton of good in the world. Well, Simas simple Tanis doing really well for their families. But this just needs a huge injection of cash, and it needs a huge injection of talent. And that's one of the things that we're trying to catalyze, and that's a that's a huge. That's a lot of progress since the last time we talked. I don't think you were doing really any of that two years ago. Right. Yeah. I mean, we were. I think we're about a twelve staff members then were fifty three staff members. Now, I think we had maybe three or four of our directors at that point. Now, we have all nine of directors. Everybody's thinking super strategically. We have quarterly goals, we have sort of everything tied. We've got a strategic plan that anybody who wants to see it can say, I'm kind of everything down. But we do have a lot of job of innings. The last time I was on. I was talking about job openings, and I think we got at least four or five of our current fifty three person staff people who people who listen to me on the podcast. So I hope people will check out GSI dot org, or if you don't see job openings there. That are interesting to you feel free to Email me directly. Make sure you dial up that resume though. Yes. Reuss only. Good people. It's true. Yeah. People we have we have a bit of a reputation for having a rigorous application process. So if you make it into the application process, it is multiple stages. I mean, look at if you look at dot org and click on our team, you can see the caliber people we hired to work for us. It is and all of those people are. Working. I said the thing that was somewhat disparaging the idea people changing their diet on behalf of these factors. But people do want their vocations to be meaningful and Daniel pink in his book drive. He says the things people want out of their vocation. They want self actualization. They want something that's meaningful. They want to be challenged. But not to challenge every six months. We do a an internal anonymous staff survey, and we are knocking it out of the charts on those things it's a phenomenal place to work, but hard place to get a job. Yeah. Well, I think that's we're seeing more and more of that purpose driven young people who really prioritize that. Perhaps even more than salary, and that's a that. That gives me hope for the new generation the next Jenner jen's, e or whatever it is whatever we're calling it the cover the cover letters that. We read are just so inspiring on people. They think they can change the world and be they want to change the world. It is really. Yeah. It's really really good. Yeah. All right. So give me an estimate of how long. It's going to be before clean meat is going to be commercially available to consumers, I think commercially available at a price point that is somewhat reasonable commercial commercially available at a price point that is similar to like grasp grow. Grow grass fed beef probably three or four maybe five years commercially available at really low price points, probably ten years. I would guess but China wants to be the global leader on climate change. Singapore is looking in a big way at food tech to feed its population. And it's this tiny little country if Israel or Singapore or China or the US if they decide they're going to sink, billions of dollars into advancing this technology could happen a lot more quickly. This shouldn't be sand hill road, venture capitalists, and with a bit of money from Tyson Foods, Cargill and other companies like that that are seating plant based meat and clean meat is to really big problems that governments care about government should be thinking a lot of money into this. If we convince them to do that. And that's like one of the key things that we're doing in our overseas offices, and it's a key aspect of what our policy department is doing in the u. Yes, we convince them to do that. If we find people with ties into government who are really excited about this could happen a lot more quickly. So the bottlenecks aren't the bottlenecks in terms of time light aren't necessarily technological breakthroughs. No. It's just sort of supply chain economics, create how many minutes talent and money. So I mean, even beyond me impossible foods, like they're scaling up as fast as they can. But they can't meet demand. The other plant base meat companies. Multiple of them are having trouble meeting demand. As I mentioned beyond me. They seventy percent year on year growth in terms of sales last year field rose, which has been around for a little while they sold. I think like sixty five percent more guardian was like sixty percent more actually a little more like sixty four percent more. So they're scaling kind of as fast as they can. And with clean me, there are some technological. Hurdles, like, we need to take the what we know about tissue engineering, and we need to figure out how to make. Food. Great media how to scale up the buyer actor. So we have twenty thousand liter buyer actors by reactors instead of five liter bio reactors. So there are some questions to answer. There isn't anybody who's like really deep in this who thinks these are going to be insurmountable obstacles. But they're going to take really smart scientists and they're going to take money. And if we're continuing to rely on Silicon Valley and twenty two one hundred fifty million dollar investments, it's gonna take a lot longer than if we have multibillion dollar governor a Manhattan project from China or the US or whoever. Assuming or presuming that we will resolve these economic dilemmas that there will be an adequate cash infusion and all of this stuff is going to happen. We're still looking at kind of a cultural revolution in the way that that people have difficulty wrapping their heads around the fact that their cars are going to drive themselves. It's undeniable that there is this. It's been called factor of people trying to wrap their heads around the idea of eating something that's called me. That didn't come from an animal in the way that they understand it. So this is a hurdle that we're dry. We talked about this last time a little bit. But I think it's worth kind of walking us through this aspect of culture change. Yeah. I mean, people don't eat meat because of how it's produced they eat meat despite how it's produced. So a researcher at Oklahoma state university in early twenty eighteen what hap-? Was a group called the sentence institute, which is a sort of animal protection think tank. They released numbers, and they said, according to our numbers more than forty five percent of people would ban swatter houses. So they want slaughter houses band. And so the meat industry said, you know, this true look at the source, so they went to one of their handpicked researchers and researcher at Oklahoma state university, and he did the researcher research, and it was like sure enough and our poll forty seven percent of people want to ban slaughter houses. Two thirds of people are uncomfortable with the way that animals are raised today. So I think people like Dr driving their cars like what they like about driving is not necessarily and only getting from point a to point. I think there's also a control issue of sort of sitting in the back of the car where the car is driving around that is a little harder for people to wrap their minds around. I would say this is more like going from the horse and buggy to a car or going from a standard camera to a digital camera. We're going from dial phone with a cord to go into your cell phone like what you like about taking pictures or talking on the phone or eating me what you like about it with meat. It's taste its texture its experience, its culture. It's whatever it is. But for almost nobody I really want animals to be raised and slaughtered for this. So if we can give people the taste the texture the things that they like about meat, and we can get a lower price point. I really have just absolutely no doubt that it takes off and early polling super good or early pulling on this super super good. I think there was a sauce stat twenty to thirty percents of people are willing to make the switch twenty to thirty percent of people are willing to pay more for clean out people who are willing to try it somewhere on the consistently on the order of seventy percent people are willing to to make the switch like permanently or in the order fifty percent, and this is programming against human physiology, which has for ever told us don't eat something unfamiliar until like lots of other people have eaten it versus. Might kill you like you just basically say if we could grow meet directly from cells without animal slaughter. What would you think of that? And most people are excited about it. And as we were talking about a minute ago, especially younger people are super excited about it and bear in mind right now plant base me is a third of one percent of the meat market. And we're talking seventy percent of people who would eat clean me, which is, you know, three times two hundred ten times as many people before we even have a product like once we actually have these products on sale on shelves, and we're saying do you want the product that might have a whole bunch of bacteria might kill your family? Maybe laced with antibiotics, and here's how the animals were raised in slaughtered. Or do you want this other safer cleaner product that doesn't have all of those ants Larry costs? I don't think like you're not going to have to be a Madison Avenue genius to sell the clean me. Right. Well, if I was a venture capitalist. You just gave me the pitch of all time. Right. I'd be like take all my money. But it also I think there is a little bit of a fear button with people to they're like, well is this genetically engineered and I heard that might not be so good. And what's the long term? You know, we don't know what this is doing to our bodies long-term. In fairness, like I think we have to have those conversations to really make sure that we're doing all of this. Right. But you. Made an interesting analogy in an article you wrote between this movement and kind of. What went down with the in vitro fertilization movement, which I thought was out. Yeah. So forty years ago. I mean ethicists and lots of other people were screaming, bloody Murdy murder at the idea of in Beato fertilization, saying it's natural and just like real absolute freakout super controversy. And now, we're forty years later, and there no controversy at all. It's how I think like two percent of babies now are born through in vitro fertilization. And there may be some Jesuit academics. Who are still raising concerns or some very conservative old bioethicists? But for the most part, this is like completely noncontroversial super common. Most people know have family members or friends who have had babies through in vitro fertilization. It's just that's what it is in the same way. It was controversial originally when we were gonna make ice in ice makers instead of pulling ice out of cold lakes and rivers, and there was an uproar. And now there's obviously no at all. It's a it's a safer better cheaper. Like ice was controversial ice was controversial. Yeah. I didn't know that. Yeah. Paul shapiro. Talks about it in book, clean meat and lots of talk about that other things in the same in the same sort of vein. But yeah, this will there will be certain people who are concerned about this early on. And there will be some interests that try to drum up even more concerned about this early on. But it is just a much better product. It's perfectly safe, and it's worth noting that all of the people who have started companies so far like most of them are in this because they want their lives to be meaningful. So Valetta who started Memphis means? He said I calculated that as cardiologists which is what he was doing before. He was a professor of cardiology at the university of Minnesota trained in cardiology. At the mayo clinic, which is where he got the idea for growing cells for me on he was the head of the American college of cardiology and the American Heart Association for the twin cities. So like the really he could do kind of anything, and this is what he decided to do. And he decided to do it because he realized he could save even more lives and do more good in the world by accelerating. The. Advancement of quaint meet than he could do as cardiologists. And that's kind of the way that most people in plant base meat and clean. Meet are thinking about this brownie Brown. Yeah. Ethan for sure Josh tetris the same thing. And so they all want to be completely transparent like they are consumer focused, maybe even slightly to to a fault. If you're sort of an old school sort of food marketing person, but they want to be completely transparent. And I think probably even from an old school sort of food marketing with a new technology for all the reasons you just numerous did you really do want to make sure that people are super comfortable and have a complete understanding of the technology, and how it works and everybody's talking about. We're going to be live streaming meat production on the internet. You wanna see Memphis meets wanna see the meat that you are going to be eating being made. In a log into Memphis meets dot com and click on the livestream. It gets boring in about thirty seconds. But it makes the fact that it exists. I mean, this is super important. You know, people wanna be connected to. How their food is made. The products are made how everything they purchase is made and transparency is no longer something to be dismissed. I think it needs to be front and center, and the fact that they're doing that. I think is amazing. And it star it stands a course in stark contrast to the way dairy products have been produced, historically, and how they're protected through Agag laws and all kinds of regulations that insulate the consumer from the very truth of how these things are created. Yeah, I mean for people who don't know what an gag law as Mark Pitman from the New York Times coined the term Ag gag and in states have been passing these laws to make it illegal to find out. How meat is made. There are a variety of these laws. The early ones were you can't tape inside a factory farmers slaughterhouse or any sort of facility that goes toward raising animals for food. So you got the plant based meat and clean meat companies. Saying come one come all and good luck getting into a. A modern farm or a modern slaughterhouse goes back to people eat meat despite that not because of that. So these technologies I think once the price is competitive, and once it is taste identical or better. I don't see many people not switching. Well, that's a perfect segue into a certain sector of the economy that is somewhat resistant to this which is the the meat and dairy producers themselves for every Cargill Tyson. There's a whole variety of other ongoing concerns that would prefer to not have this succeed. And we're seeing this battle taking place in the front lines of it right now are over labeling. Right. Yeah. So tell me about what's going on with the meat labelling thing. I know you guys have jumped in there's an injunction like this is super fascinating to me. Yeah. It's it's been surprising to me. I should say there aren't really. There isn't a company that's similar to Tyson or Cargill that is not on our side here in the cattle ranchers, and the dairy producers are pretty much the only folks who are not excited about base meeting reckless threatening their livelihood. So you almost can't blame them like this is how they make a living. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. But I guess it just sort of underline people who work in slaughter houses like at threatens their livelihood. But those are just the worst jobs human rights. Watch said that the way that slaughterhouse workers are treated in the US is the US human rights crime, but people who are working in chicken farms and pig farms like those folks are not excited to be working in chicken farms and pig farms, so kind of the only people with a vested interest who care about this stuff are the dairy. Producers are still tens of thousands of small dairy farms and cattle ranchers, there are still I don't know how many but lots of cattle ranchers. So that's kind of the only folks in the resistance to this sort of move in this direction technique. And it's our position that they shouldn't be our position that plant based me clean meat and these alternative products. They actually will create better livelihood for farmers. It's been go big or go home for such a long time. And so we've gone from what more than fifty percent of people and farming fewer than two percent of people and farming, and they all have to be for the most part, really, really massive. This allows us to open up all kinds of different crops to cultivation you can have smaller farms, you can have farms that you actually are able to crop rotation. Like, this is sort of new agricultual renaissance that will be good for farmers, but are there programs underway to help train these people so that they can say way into a new way of using their their land. This is one of the things that there is some really interesting stuff happening in this regard. I was actually just chatting with Kathy reston, my co author and the clean protein, and she was just out in Arkansas. She got an Email from somebody who read one of her books and emailed her and apparently emailed for people. And Cathy was the only one who replied. And it's a chicken farmer from Arkansas, they have more than one hundred thousand chickens supplying one of the biggest chicken companies in the United States, and Shaun Monson. The film maker was out there with Kathy filming them as they are basically moving out, and they're gonna go to hamp, and there are other farmers were going mushrooms and other farmers going to other crops. So this is the transition that we think is going to have to happen. Our hope is that governments as they fund plant base meat and clean meat research will also fund programs to help people who are currently in the current industry to transition into these new jobs that are actually absolutely coming. That are also just better for the soil, which is something that pharma's care about farmers are not monocropping because they're excited about monocropping monocropping to say alive, essentially, but to the labelling issue there is there are the dairy industry has for decades and trying to convince the government that sway milk should not be called soy and almond milk. Be called almond milk. There have been class action suits, which are really fun to read. The judicial opinions on a class action suits, the judges get very very creative begs credulity that somebody would be buying almond milk. And they're getting milk that comes from cows. And right are they do these almonds lactate? Like it gets really weird. It gets really really weird. But that is all just because these these sorts of endeavors don't pass the smell test. But Mary's they are absolute hail Marys, but they did pass along, Missouri. That says that you can't use meet terminology on the packaging of products. Unless those products come from raised and slaughtered animals. And so we along with the animal legal defense fund, and the of Missouri in the plant based meat company to forty and then by GSI is both one of the lawyers in one of the plaintiffs in the case where suing the state of Missouri to overturn that law and the main the main arguments that it's constitutional unless the. Labels are false or misleading. Missouri. Can't censor speech. We also have the doormat commerce clause argument in there as well as do process clause in there. What does the dormant commerce clause argument commerce clause argument is essentially that it was very clear when the legislation was being passed. It was passed by the cattle industry. So it is to protect Missouri cattle interests against competition from other states. So that's the dormant commerce clause argument. And then the due process is void for vagueness. You read the law. It's very unclear the only way, you know, what it is actually supposed to do if you read the legislative history. And so do process demands that if you're going to be convicted of a crime, you have to know what it looks like violate the crime, and that's become even into starker relief in sort of the conversations that have been had after the law passed. So we're we're doing we're about to be asking for a preliminary injunction to join the government against actually enforcing the law until our lawsuit is over and the defendant. Argument. Curiously is that they do not want consumers to be confused. They wanna make sure that these consumers know where their food came from and the inherent irony, of course, in all of that goes back to what we were just talking about. They have an acted all of these laws these protectionist measures to prevent that very thing. They actually don't want consumers to know how those products are produced. So it feels like this bizarre straw, man. It's almost laughable that that's their argument. It is it is darkly ironic for sure. And and we saw this, of course, Hampton Creek, which is now called just went through this in the man as sector right that the word man, as must meet must by very definition means eggs. And that was a lawsuit that was pursued by Unilever, correct? Yeah. A PR nightmare. Turned into a PR PR nightmare Unilever not only dropped their lawsuit. But subsequently introduce their own beginning was going to say, so they've jumped on board, you know, which I think is a beautiful thing. Yeah. We thought like, sir. Kensington, right. They did by ten. Kensington. Yeah. Yeah. You're. You're you're in tune with this stuff, but how much as you try try to pay attention from the sidelines. But but yeah, one one of Jeff is for programmatic departments are corporate engagement department. And we have really good relationships with Tyson and Cargill and Smithfield and Unilever and all of these big food companies like when I started we were talking about disrupting the food industry disrupting the dairy industries now we're talking about transforming because of the more we have conversations with these people the more we realized that they they're in this for whatever reason they're in this. But if they can do what they want to do which has nothing to do with raising and slaughtered slaughtering animals, if they can provide high quality food to people in a more efficient way that is more profitable without all the external costs. They're all in on that. So so that was that was sort of an interesting scenario. Yeah. Unilever they dropped the lawsuit. But then the FDA got involved, and it's all based on standards of identity from the early nineteen thirties, and they don't make a lot of sense. And as a. Applied in some cases. They're not constitutional. They can't pass first amendment scrutiny. And they would also make things like gluten-free bread bread has a standard of identity. So you can't gluten-free bread. You can't have rice noodles. There are tons of things that according to the dairy industry interpretation of things wouldn't be on shelves and their position is just literally indefensible it's so important and powerful this idea of of disrupting within if you wanna use that word or finding a way to collaborate and cooperate with what is to try to improve it. We had a panel that this Kellogg school of business. And we had the senior sustain at this senior VP for sustainability at Tyson Foods, just in Whitmore, and he was you so awesome on this panel. But one of the things he said has really stuck with me. He said at Tyson. We don't want to be disrupted. We want to be the disruptor, and that is absolutely the way that the entire food industry should be thinking about this. And we've been super encouraged that that a lot of them really are one. Of the biggest plant base meat companies in the US, it's called light life. And if you go to light life's website light dot com. I'm sure it says meet without the middleman, so like the largest meat company and Canada maple leaf owns light life, and they are all in on. This is me it's just meat made from plants also owners field roast which had the second highest growth in the last year at almost seventy percent just behind beyond mate. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I feel like as amazing as the vegan movement is there are factions within the vegan movement that get in their own way. Like, you know, for example, somebody would say, how dare you talk to Tyson. How these these are the bad guys? These this is the enemy we're trying to tear these people down, but they exist they're not necessarily going away. So what is the best strategy? Like, what is the battle that you're trying to are you trying to win the battle or the war? Right. Exactly. And you're fighting the war, you're fighting this long term, you have a long term view. On how to succeed and it requires collaboration and cooperation and and some level of of humanity. Right. Seeing these people as people who want to do the right thing. And they are. I mean, it's not even it's it's sort of like Martin Luther King junior talks about how he adopted nonviolence in the fifties. As tactic read about Dondi any adopted nonviolence, and he just sort of thought their way more powerful than we are. There's no way we're gonna win with violence. So we adopted nonviolence as a tactic then by the early sixties. He's like no nonviolence is just Diatta logical nonviolence is the only way to victory and success. It's not a tactic. It's just an absolute moral imperative, and I think similarly some people may see let's work with Tyson as a tactic. I see it as a moral imperative. It certainly is the most the way that we are most likely to be successful. But it's also true. Like, I know that people at Tyson and Cargill and Unilever and these companies. And we go in and we spend an entire day with these folks talking about plant based meat and clean meat. They are good people. Just like, you know, the people in the vegan movement are good people on everybody who is vegan knows lots of people who they love who are not the in. And hopefully, we don't think they're bad people because they're not begin. So the fact that somebody has found themselves in the upper echelons this one of these corporations allows them to do a lot more good than ninety nine point nine nine nine nine percent of Egan's because they can be a part of the transformation and the inside. And if we look at them as human beings, which who they are trying to do good in the world, which they are rather than sort of any sense of enemy. I mean, that's just true. And b it's also going to be tactically a lot smarter. Yeah. They have their hands on the Archimedes lever that can create seismic major shifts in how we think about food how we produce food. How we eat food. We how we innovate up writer future that is protective of our planet for future generations. To come that spares all of these animals that improves our health. I mean, it checks all the boxes. Yeah. And anybody can see that. Right. You don't have to be the you don't have to be an activist like most of these people have families. They want the best for their children and their grandchildren and themselves in the world. So that's a that's also just a nicer conversation to have. Then you are bad. And I started I started learning this. I was that people for the ethical treatment of pita for a long time. So this you've had your own personal kind of journey and exploration to this place as well. Yeah. I remember in the early two thousands at Pedo. We started launching corporate campaigns to reform industrial animal agriculture, and we got a professional business consultant who taught business I think at university of Illinois if memory serves guy named Steve gross. And the first thing he said to me, and we couldn't have afforded him. But he was doing it pro Bono. He now is chair of the board of group called farm forward. And so he was our negotiator with McDonalds KFC with Wendy's, Safeway and calling up sort of all of the big fast, food, and grocery outlets. And he said, you know, we are absolutely going to get nowhere. If we go in with confrontation, we have to go in with let me tell you about my son and my daughter, and here's what my son and my daughter doing tell me about. Your son and your daughter, what do you want for the future of the world sort of high falutin things? And this is another example, we might not change people's diets necessarily with these sorts of conversations, or at least not as many as we want to change some people change. I've changed. Change. But, but if we really want to bond with people on and create transformation, we need to do it at a human level. So that's been sort of my philosophies since then, and I think it's correct. It's correct. And I think it it applies to how we're having conversations about everything right now, you know, the dialogue. That we're seeing online especially in the political sphere, even in the health and nutrition sphere is pretty toxic. It's pretty toxic. And I think we need to take a step back and really try to understand how to better communicate. Our our point of view. And I think it begins with some level of humility and compassion for other people and the inherent humanity that we all share just I was at a conference this past weekend. In nantucket. This thing called the tuck it project, and that was kind of a theme of this event. The theme for this year was neighborhood. And it was very consciously curated in terms of the speaker lineup to to, cultivate, like this conversation around how to really communicate effectively. So that we can come together and make positive change in the world. So there were polarizing figures there was Sean Spicer. There was George W Bush. There was Lance Armstrong. There was Valerie plame like very interesting mix of individuals who in their own worlds are polarizing for a lot of people and all of the conversations that took place were were about like, let me see if I can see this from this person's point of view, like what is it like for that person as a human being, and I left that experience a better person because I really did. Did force myself to set aside my preconceived ideas, whatever projections, I'm putting on all of these people, and I left with a greater sense of compassion. And I think that we need more of that. You know, we need that in the vegan movement, we need that in these conversations that we're having about politics, and certainly with respect to what you do which is interfacing with these titans of industry who are in organizations that when you were at pita a very different perspective on right or so it's really interesting that you're now. Creating the most change that you've ever had in your entire career by taking a very different psychological and communicative approach. Yeah. Well, it helps tremendous amount that we had the same basic attitude at pita, but what we were asking them to do a lot harder. So you're you're asking them to be the industry leader, and it is going to adverse -ly affect their profitability. So they were harder conversations. They're still good conversations. But now, we're actually we're saying this is why this will be more profitable for you. And it's simple taniwha. You know, you should do it for all these very human reasons, but it's in your best interest. But it's in your best interest, which makes to get rich and makes it makes it much easier. So what's going on on the regulatory landscape right now with the FDA the USDA or the hurdles there is this smooth sailing? Like, what is that look like sort of prefatory thing to say in response to that question. Is that there are one hundred ninety something countries and every country has the capacity to introduce clean meat so plant based meat, obviously, it's playing bass means, so it's all foods that are already on the food supply. So there are some regulatory questions they mostly have to do with labeling and safety testing for new ingredients. But the really interesting question has to do with clean meat and in the United States. There's a bit of a battle in July FDA asserted its unalloyed authority and said essentially, they had a whole day meeting at which the Commissioner and the woman who runs the center for food and nutrition and their chief scientists just we got this. We got this. We got this which is kind of what GSI thought should happen, and we still think should happen. The current regulatory regime is up to the task. And it makes sense for FDA to do it because these are the sorts of products that they have been regulating for decades. But USDA also wants on it and the cattle ranchers want USDA to be in on it. So there's a little bit of a battle in the United States. I mean, it looks like everybody thinks that the current regulatory regime is up to the task if I were a betting person, I would bet that there will be some sort of dual authority from USDA, and so maybe FDA will do safety testing pre market, and then USDA will actually regulate the production and labelling, but it's it's hard to say for sure. And obviously congress could jump in jump in and just sort of dictate which case whatever FDA or USDA once would be relevant congress. Congress would just say, but we're up domestic the national academies of sciences released a report about two years ago in which they said, this is a very promising technology, and the government should do everything that can to make sure that the current rightly regulatory regime is used new regulatory promulgation. And also that it is. Mood and quick. And since again, this is something this is not sort of your average regulatory discussion of food. This is a regulatory discussion of a food that solves a lot of problems than the government wants sold. So hopefully, those sort of normative considerations will also be worked in, but we're symbol tenuously. Like in our in our overseas offices, the focus is policy and science. So the focus is a convinced the government's on the policy side one side of policy is convinced governments to fund open source plant based in clean meat research. And then the other side is rollout. The regulatory red carpet for clean me. So we're doing analysis and all of these countries, then the other side is if they're going to fund the science, we need the scientists. So we're doing a lot of outreach to scientists in these countries to get them excited about right? Yeah. I would think in the in the US it would be advisable to bring the EPA and as well like because it impact it's not just food. Right. This is a bigger. This is a bigger subject matter with more profound implications beyond like. What are the ingredients, and is is it healthy for human consumption? Yeah. I think there are many other agencies which especially if you're talking about funding EPA has a research and development budget. It used to go significantly to climate change initiatives. And now it's going to a variety of other environmental things. But some of that money could certainly be made available to plant base meat and clean meat, research and development. But if what you're talking about is regulatory oversight. You've got the food and Drug administration under the food, drug and cosmetics act. They oversee about eighty percent of food. Then you've got the USDA the federal meat inspection act, and they oversee the vast majority of meat oversight. And so this is me, but it also uses a lot of this sort of food technologies that have generally been the province of FDA. So at least for regulatory oversight of the leader be FDA or USDA or some combination of FDA. Yeah. Yeah. It's confusing. It's a little over. For that. Yeah. The food system in the United States is definitely is definitely concerned. Confusing. Well, I think most people think that the USDA is this. Government organization that functions like a consumer watchdog that has our best interests at heart. And I think a lot of people would be surprised to learn that it's only a quasi government organization that functions in many ways like a lobbying arm for the dairy industry. Well, yeah. Meat and dairy USDA was set up to promote US agriculture. And I think it was the nineteen sixties that it became also focused on food safety, but definitely appears to be more promote US agriculture than it than it does food safety. And we have the only department of agriculture in the world that doesn't have mandatory recall powers like you will always see the meat industry voluntary recall. So it's a voluntary recall. This much must not be that toxic. One hundred percent of recalls are voluntary recalls. Because USDA is not empowered with the authority to issue a mandatory recall. It's really quite remarkable. And the it's the checkoff program, right? Yeah. I spoke I spoke with Neil. Bernard about that. But explain what that is. Because that's just a mind blower that that even is think well, they're a bunch of different checkoff programs. So of course, again USDA was was set up to promote US agriculture. So there's the beef checkoff and dairy checkoff and cheese checkoff, and basically a percentage of all she's dairy and beef sales in the United States go into government administered checkoff programs, then do general promotion of those products, and they're pretty controversial because the small producers uniformly feel like what's true, which is it's a sort of lowest common denominator promotion for the entire industry. And then you get into sort of weird legal ramifications as well where the laws that affect the general population. Generally, don't also affect the federal government. So the federal government can do things that if it were a private corporation. It would be illegal to do which happened. When there was this lawsuit in California this happened in California over this happy cows commercials. Happy. Come from California and so- pita, and I think the legal defense fund and some other folks sued and the defense was not these commercials are true. The defense was the government does not have to abide by the consumer protection laws that apply to corporations, and that was the reason that that that lawsuit ended up being ejected, despite the fact that even people on the board who are watching the commercials and the focus groups were saying, I don't think all of the cows in California out on cinema. And isn't it true? Like, I know that that when dairy products find their way into television commercials like when Pizza Hut introduces its cheesy crust, and that there is government funding going into those at budgets. Yeah. No, it's it's fascinating. I mean, that's that's it's the American egg board and the American dairy council and the beef council and the pork board like those are quasi governmental agencies impart. That's why Hampton Creek when they. There was this crazy thing where the American board was laughing about killing Josh Tetra and was trying to keep emails came out. And they were trying to keep Hampton Creek products off the shelves of whole foods and all kinds of anti-competitive stuff. That is illegal for these groups to do because they are government funded, and the reason those emails came out is that because they are government funded. They're also subject to foia request. Yeah. So all that stuff came back in a freedom of information act request. And it was interesting. What the what happened in response to that was that the meat industry tried to pass a law to make foia more restrictive? So they response was not only God, this is an awful thing. Joking about killing competitor and anti-competitive stuff. The response was let's see if we can make the next foia. Not actually get the records. And fortunately, foia is something that you know, the far, right? The far left and the centre all agree on that legislation went absolutely nowhere. But but that was the response of the sort of. Meat industry, right large, which was too bad. All right. So the players I'm familiar with Memphis meets, I know what beyond me impossible or doing and the plant based sector, just and just Chetrit. They're they're getting into clean meet. Now, they are who are the other players like what's going on. Now, that's new like, what are some of the products that are being developed, and and who are some of the other active members of this this this movement. There's a lot of really exciting stuff happening across plant based meat and clean meat. So as you know, the twelve months that ended early September. There was twenty three percent growth in plant based mate and be at the grocery sector and beyond meat was number one at seventy percent, and it would have been a lot higher if they could met demand, but number two was field roast, which is sort of a legacy producer. That's owned by a meat company in Canada. Number three was Gardena. Number four was Dr Prager 's. So we are seeing a lot of the sort of old school plant based meat companies significantly upping their game improving their products and proving their marketing and recognizing that they too can get really really big. So that's exciting. The Sarno are getting into fish to right? Yeah. That that companies exciting. It's called good catch. It's actually one of Jeff ice three success stories. So in our innovation department, in addition to helping startups to be successful and publishing all kinds of documents to help we've got a startup guide, which is kind of everything in anything you've ever wanted to know about starting a plant based or clean meat food business, and we help companies with whatever they want. But we have also started three companies one of those companies that we started with a with a marketing company called beyond brands and venture capital fund called new crop capital is good catch and good catches vais sponsored our conference. And also did the did the did the Recep. On Thursday evening. So the first night of the conference and people who eat tuna were eating their tuna. And we're just blown away. They've also got crab cakes. And they're going to be rolling out a bunch of other fish alternatives and two of the chefs behind that are Derek Sarno, and Chad Sarno who have also been advisers from from when we were first conceived super cool is there good catch products should be on the market certainly by the end of the year out for them. And they have a line of products in the UK to like, I was just in London, and you can go into their version of seven eleven have pre prepackaged healthy, sandwiches and things like that. That are all totally plant based. Yeah. Wicked healthy is the brand and they're going to be launching in the US a brand called wicked meaty, which is which is also something that new crop capital and the good food institutes working together. Cool. So if you can grow meat products in this fashion. And. From these cells, I would presume that you could also create cheese and dairy products as well true. What's going on there? So is there a cellular products, of course? So you go straight to the proteins rather than the cells, and that's actually quite a bit easier. So you're just isolate the proteins you do need to use genetic modification. So the final product is not GMO, but there is a GMO process. So you can take a GMO yeast or a GMO bacteria, and you get whatever the proteins are that you want the east or the bacteria to grow and you program that directly into the east, and how comes and it's genetically identical thing so you can create cheese or milk or egg, proteins eggs, and Milken cheese are pretty complex. But once you actually have the key proteins that give it the binding or give it the flavor that give it the, you know, whatever it is that you like about cheese or milk or eggs. It's probably going to be an easier process than meat. Although it is the case that there are far fewer companies doing it. So. The absolute leader in dairy is a company called perfect day, which is being funded by the richest guy in Asia guy, named Li Ka-shing who has venture capital fund called horizons ventures, and he's the money behind horizons ventures, the main egged company as a company called Clara foods, and then there's also a gelatin company called shelter. The world is getting crazy, Bruce. It is getting crazy. We we really think there should be a lot more plant base meat and evasion. So plant based meat companies that are focused on bio mimicry that are focused on food tech like good catch is phenomenal company company. And they're doing a great job with tuna. They're mostly focused on culinary. I think their slogan something like chef mastered. I can't remember exactly, but they really focus on sort of chef side of things, and that's exciting. But there is a tremendous amount that could be done with food tech, and some people I think maybe the that impossible and beyond meat have that Qurna. They absolutely don't it's still a third of one percent of the market. So we would like to see a lot more companies saying, let's see what happens if we use Lupu. Let's see what happens if we use chickpeas. Let's see what happens if we use millet, and like all of these under explored proteins and turn that into plant basement. Yeah. And the plant based dairy market cap is massive. Oh, yeah. It's interesting plant based area has just surpassed thirteen percent of the dairy market. It was ten percent. I think two years ago. So it is continuing to grow in a way that is very exciting more and more companies more and more market share. And I think we're only going to continue to see that especially as the price comes down. I mean, it's at thirteen percent despite being more expensive once it gets to price parody. I think it's a really shoot up. So the biggest barriers from what I gather from our conversation are really capital like making sure that all of these ventures are properly funded training the brightest minds to enter into this sector to continue to innovate. I mean, what are some of the other like hurdles that you're trying to overcome right now. Those are really the two big hurdles, I mean, if you go ask Ethan Brown or Pat Brown from beyond me, impossible foods, or you ask Valenti or Mike seldom from finless or Lubar house from blue or sort of any of these companies right now. Not having funding issues like every time, they go to get the amount of money that they think they can effectively incorporate the money is there so far, but what they're not finding is the crackerjack scientists tissue. Engineers the Biochemists the meat scientists the the mechanical engineers, the people to design these technologies to make this market sector thrive. So so far they have the money when I talk about needing money. I'm talking about governments should be putting billions of dollars in creating research institutes that hasn't happened yet. And it should but so far no startup in this space has failed due to lack of money. Although the most money that's been raised as Memphis meets at twenty one million dollars. So that Lisa's has not been thoroughly tested. They're going to have to raise hundreds of millions of dollars to be successful. And we're super optimistic that they'll be able to do that. But that money is going to have to be there. But the talent gap is number one and number two and number three really in terms about sickles at the moment. Which is why GSI? F is is excited to be launching fellowship programs that top universities internationally, where we have identified huge opportunity for plant based meat and clean meat. Even if it's not there quite yet. We just really need to create a talent pool of people who are excited to staff these companies, right? So all you super geniuses out there. What are you doing? I know exactly come on look at this look at this expanding universe. The world is your voice ter- your world, the world's your plant based clean meat Stor for you. If people are wondering how they get involved, especially if you're in college science science science, if you're in high school science, if you're beyond that, I mean think about other ways that you can dedicate your talent to that. Obviously philanthropist, the GSI we have to raise seven point five million dollars this year. So would love your help. If you have access to even more money than you have access to people who you could connect us with who would help us raise tens of millions of dollars to create institutes if you have. Access to governments Raissi's issues with governments. They should be putting even more money into this. But we do have a lot of job openings GSI PF, I need scientific and other help we need lawyers. We need people in our corporate engagement department. We need people in our policy department when you kind of across the organization. Yeah, you're growing. So so all you other super geniuses out there. Get in touch with Bruce man, he wants to hire you. And if you're if you're extroverted and can do sort of marketing stuff and meeting with corporations, we need we need that too. Yeah. All kinds of people. All right. Well, we got to wrap this up. But I think a good place to kind of leave people with is is your version of the future like paint me the picture of the future that you're working towards that. You would like to see. Boy, can go very very big with that. I mean, I before I got involved in this space Iran, a homeless shelter in a soup kitchen and inner city Washington DC for about six years. I also taught for through teach for America for a couple years. So my vision, my vision of future is people well-fed people. Well, educated everybody has healthcare. It's a future where people have the capacity to take a step back and reflect on their lives. People are practicing mindfulness from the highest to the lowest echelons a part of that is the good food future for sure a part of that is if people are eating meat it's plant based meat or it's clean meat. But it's also just a world where we are going to knock out global, poverty, probably in the next twenty or thirty years when you go from knocking out global poverty to like real health, and healthcare and prosperity, and spirituality and mindfulness. And I think plant based made and clean it it sort of on Moslems period pyramid. The plant based meat and clean. Meet a part of the base. It's like we need to people feed everybody. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Global health needs to be taken care of the environment needs to be taken care of basic physiological needs. But I I want everybody up at self actualization. And I'd love to see that happen twenty-fifty. You'll meet both Bruce you and me both. Well, you're doing a tremendous amount to get get us there rich. I think you're at your podcast the podcast with you ball or Ari really blew me away, the podcast with the religious figure talking about the human need for spirituality. Just just raising these issues with your listeners. I think is just so exciting and doing such a service. Well, I appreciate the work. You're doing is incredible. You really are reshaping the world. I commend you. I wish you well. If there's anything I can do to continue to support your mission. Please don't hesitate to reach out having the on as as I mentioned just section honor. And also such a help. So thank you. You're a gift, my friend. Quite often. When people listen to podcasts, they have an option on their phone like they can speed it up 'til like one and a half times or two times. So they can listen to to our podcast in an hour. But you're firing off so much information. I feel like people are going to have to go the other direction at half speed, just so they can process everything that you have said, that's hilarious. Cool. If you want to connect with Bruce GSI dot org. Indeed. And Bruce reader on Twitter. Yes. Bruce, g Friedrich, Drake. Drake in Lincoln. Yeah. There you go mad, and are you giving any speeches public appearances or anything like that? I am kind of always giving in public appearances. If people sign up for the newsletter, you'll you'll find out about them. There you go. All right, pleasure. My friend. Thanks, rich. Peace peace plant's, clean. And he's so rapid fire with all the facts on this innovation, and this technology that I think that one might require a second listen and a pad of paper and pen to take notes in any event. I really love that guy. I appreciate the work that he and everybody GSI are doing if you're looking for a job, they are hiring as he mentioned, so go to dot org to learn more about that. If you feel like you are qualified candidates and you're looking for a new career path. Also give Bruce shout out on the social media channels, and let him know how you felt about today's conversation. You can find him on Twitter at Bruce g Friedrich F R E R, I C H, and you can find the good food institute on those channels as well at good food. I n s t on Twitter and on Instagram. It's the good food institute. As always check the show notes on the episode patient ritual dot com to expand your experience of. Conversation beyond the ear buds. And if you are looking to take your plate your healthy lifestyle to the next level. I cannot recommend enough. Our plan power meal planner, go to meals dot ritual dot com, and there you will find thousands of plant based recipes totally customized based on your personal preferences. They are delicious nutritious, they will fortify you. They will say to you. And they will delight you you also get unlimited grocery lists amazing customer support seven days a week from people who really know what they're talking about. And even grocery delivery is integrated into the whole system if you live in a metropolitan area, it's all available to you for just a dollar ninety week when you sign up for a year. So again to learn more and sign up go to meals dot retrial dot com or click on meal planner on the top menu on my website. If you would like to support the work that we do here on the podcasts. There are couple simple ways to do just that you can tell your friends about your favorite episode. You can share the show on social media. You can subscribe to the show on apple podcasts on Spotify on YouTube, Google podcast. We really appreciate that. That's very helpful leave a review on apple podcasts. And you can also support the show on patriotic at ritual dot com slash donate. I want to thank everybody who help put on the show today Jason Kam yellow for production work, audio engineering show notes interstitial music Curtis. Margot Leuven for videoing, the whole conversation editing it together beautifully and putting it up on YouTube. They also put together all the beautiful graphics that I share on social media and theme music as always I de decay. David Kahn for sponsor outreach in relationships. Thanks to the love you guys back here next week for my third conversation with my boy, Josh John a lot of anti for that one. What am I favor? It all time transformation. Stories amazing human being good friend, and until that peace plants good food.