3 Episode results for "Lesley Ann Downey"
October 16, 2020: Lesley Ann Downey Found Dead
"Shipped, is delivery done differently, their expert shoppers, pickup, fresh groceries, household essentials, and even pet supplies from local stories you love. Get everything delivered to your door and as soon as one hour. About, full shoppers, unbelievably fresh produce and peace of mind. That's the difference shipped makes try same-day delivery for yourself at dot com slash true crime today once again, that's S.. H. I. P. T. dot com slash true crime. Due to the graphic nature of these crimes listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of extreme sexual abuse and violence towards children that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. Today is Friday, October Sixteenth Two thousand twenty on this day in nineteen sixty five. British police found the body of missing ten year old girl Lesley Ann. Downey Lesley was one of the five young victims of serial killers, Ian Brady, and Myra Hindley. Welcome to today in true crime a spotify original from podcast due to the graphic nature of today's crimes. Listener discretion is advised extreme caution is advised for listeners under thirteen. Today, we're covering the grisly end of the search for ten year old Leslie and. Let's go back to October Sixteenth Nineteen sixty-five to win eerie isolated place in northern England known as Saddleworth Moor. The Manchester Police spread out across Saddleworth a thirty mile expanse of hill country. They were determined to find Lesley Ann Downey and had strong reason to believe she was buried somewhere on the more unfortunately authorities had only discovered that information while investigating the murder of another youth named. Edward. The sudden break came under. Circumstances but it meant investigators finally had the chance to solve a mystery that had haunted Manchester and Leslie family for ten long months. Leslie was last seen on December twenty, six, nine, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, four boxing day in England the Brunette blue eyed ten year old lived in an apartment in Manchester with her mother three brothers and her mother's fiance shy polite. Leslie was likely in high spirits that day she'd gotten a toy sewing machine from Santa the morning before and there was no cause for post. Christmas blues. She was even going to a local holiday carnival with her neighbors and siblings her mother had given her a whole six pence to spend. The carnival was a winter wonderland, but by early evening Leslie was left alone at the fair. Some sources indicate that are friends had run out of money and gone home while others say she was left there by her older brother either way Leslie was defenseless as she strolled straight into the path of dangerous killer who upon first glance appeared just as innocent and wholesome as Leslie. Herself. A young woman in her twenties walked by Leslie that night dropping a bag onto the ground as she passed, she asked Leslie to help her pick it up and loaded in her car which the polite girl gladly. In the parking lot the woman asked if Leslie wanted to ride home, she allegedly accepted and the two drove off together. That was the last night. Anyone saw Lesley Ann Downey alive. When Lesley's mother and her future husband Alan realized the girl was missing they set off for the fairground to find her after having no luck there. They went to the police though Lesley's family held out. Hope as the officers mounted a search effort, the little girl would remain missing until. October nineteen, sixty five. That month Manchester Police received unsettling information from a traumatized young man named David Smith. He claimed that the night before he'd witnessed his sister in Law Myra Hindley and her boyfriend he and Brady brutally murder a teenager named Edward Evans. Ian Was a mentor to David and made him promise to return the next day to help them Berry Evans in Saddleworth more. But David went to the police instead leading officers to Ian. And Mira's home. After a search they discovered Edwards Body hacked to pieces by an axe by October eleventh, ESPN and Myra were in police custody. The couple's crime was horrific but David claimed it was only the tip of the iceberg Ian and Myra. Had told him that they had killed before. After searching the couples belongings, officers found photos of Saddleworth more along with a notebook page on which a single name was scribbled over and over John Kilbride. Kilbride was a twelve year old boy who had disappeared in November nineteen, sixty three now were certain that Ian and Myra had something to do with it. Continuing their search they soon found a suitcase. The couple had clearly taken pains to hide. It's likely officers were hoping to find a clue about Edward Evans or John kilbride inside but instead they found something much more disturbing. Pictures of Lesley Ann, Downey naked gagged, and tied to a bed police were horrified. It was clear that only Saddleworth Moor held the answers to their disturbing questions on October sixteenth nineteen, sixty, five, a search team was dispatched there. After hours of poking around the Moors Soft Pete and officer noticed the bone of a human arm sticking out of the ground. After a dig, he uncovered the decomposed body of a little girl. By the time the search was over the murder of Lesley Ann Downey would be cemented as one of the most terrifying crimes in British history. Up Next will learn the terrible truth about how Leslie died. Listeners who doesn't love a good ghost story rattling chains mysteriously moving objects unfinished business I am ready for all things spooky and so is podcast network starting October first we're bringing you the scariest most hair raising ghost stories ever imagined every Thursday on the new original series, haunted places, ghost stories, Alistair myrddin summons, a new spine, tingling tale of rates, phantoms, and chilling apparitions. These stories come from all over the world including Japan India, the UK and even ancient Rome don't miss stone cold classics like the Kit bag by Algernon blackwood. A sinister account of a condemned murderers final wish and the lengths he'd go to fulfill it and the me Suray a Spanish tale of a wandering musician who here's a terrifyingly beautiful song in a burned-out monastery and is doomed to capture. It's notes. Until he dies, you can find and follow haunted places, ghost stories free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget. October is our favorite month and one of our busiest. So make sure to search podcast network in the spotify search bar to see all our new shows. This episode today in true crime is brought to you by simply safe simply safe was designed to be easy to use while protecting your whole home twenty, four seven. You can order it online with just the click of a button when mine arrived, I was eager to get it set up immediately it didn't take long I just had to place the sensors plugged in and connected to my Wifi. Then suddenly my whole home was protected I didn't have to worry about tools or drilling or waiting around for technicians. The setup is also intuitive and. The components blend into my home seamlessly as a single mom who's main job is related to true crime. I really appreciate the peace of mind that simply safe brings their pricing is fair honest. You can get twenty, four, seven, professional monitoring and emergency dispatch starting at just fifty cents a day not bad for what US News and World Report called the best overall home security of twenty twenty head to simplisafe dot com slash today and get a free hd camera that simplisafe dot com slash today to make sure they know that our show sent you. Now back the story. On October Sixteenth nineteen sixty five police found the body of ten year old Lesley Ann Downey buried in Saddleworth more officers in Manchester England new Myra Hindley and Ian. Brady were responsible for Leslie's death but they had no idea why the couple had killed an innocent child. It was tragic enough that Lesley's body was found buried in a shallow grave, the nude bound and gagged photos of the girl in Myra. Andeans possession were even more concerning however even those weren't the most disturbing evidence detectives found in the killer couples suitcase. There was also an audio tape and while authorities had to play it for Leslie's mother. So she could identify her daughter watching her listen to it must have been excruciating. The sixteen minute recording was taken on the Night Leslie disappeared December Twenty Sixth Nineteen, sixty, four on it Myra could be heard hitting a struggling leslie so that Ian could photograph her as the poor girl fought against her captors and their sadistic sexual torture Ian threatened to slit her throat throughout the audio of her assault little leslie leded for her mom. The tape was absolutely sickening and that's what prosecutors were counting on when they played it for shocked courtroom at Ian and Mirus trial in April nineteen, sixty six, the couple stood accused of murdering the three children whose bodies had been recovered Leslie, Edward Evans and Jason Kilbride kilbride's body was uncovered in the more just days after police found Leslie it was clear. He'd also been sexually assaulted before his death. Myra and Ian became objects of scorn and fascination for all of England after their arrests on the surface. The twenty-something lovers seemed like average office workers but investigators discovered that they were secretly not only sadists but even Nazi sympathizers. Myra. Lure children in by pretending to need help getting things to her car. It was exactly this tactic that allowed her to kidnap Lesley from the Boxing Day carnival. Afterward, she took the children back to Ian home where they were assaulted tortured and killed then buried on Saddleworth more. During an interrogation in Brady admitted to being the one who planned the murders Myra claimed she was innocent. She insisted that she was always in a different room when the real violence happened and that she was a helpless victim of ESPN's. Manipulation. Myra was somewhat convincing especially because in the nineteen sixties, nobody wanted to believe a nice young woman was really a child murderer but she had one major problem the sixteen minute recording of Leslie's torture and assault featured her as a key player. She sounded just as unhinged as IAN did. On May sixth, nineteen, sixty, six, almost eighteen months after Leslie's death Ian Brady and Myra. Hindley were found guilty both were given consecutive life sentences. Ian was convicted of all three murders with prosecutors were unable to find enough evidence to tie Myra to John Kilbride's death because of this, she would be eligible for parole after twenty five years in prison, and she fully intended to walk free. Throughout the nineteen eighties, Myra desperately tried to downplay her involvement in Lesley's murder. She wrote to Leslie's mother and West claiming that she never tortured the girl even though the audio evidence from the trial clearly contradicted her Leslie's family. Believe it was just mirrors attempt to curry public favor before parole hearings they remained firm in their conviction that Myra was a murderous monster just like her lover he n. In two, thousand, two changes in England's prison laws finally gave Myra a real chance at getting out of jail on parole. But before the change went into effect, she died of a chest infection on November fifteenth two thousand to. Be in Brady died fifteen years later at the age of seventy nine. The kidnapping assault and murder of Lesley Ann Downey was a wakeup call to nineteen sixties. England it showed an entire nation that no child was truly safe not even at a Christmas carnival mere blocks from their mother's house. What was especially scary too many was that Leslie's captors seemed just as innocent. They appeared to be a young couple in love who worked nine to five at least on most days. But every once in a while Ian Brady and Myra. Hindley's disturbing appetite stirred and innocent children paid the price. Thanks for listening today in true crime. I'm Vanessa Richardson. You can find all episodes of today in true crime and all other originals from podcast for free on spotify. We'll be back with a brand new episode tomorrow in. True. Crime today in true crime was created by Max Cutler is a podcast studios original. It is executive produced by Max Cutler sound designed by Juan Boorda with production assistance by Ron Shapiro Carly, madden, and Freddie Beckley. This episode of today in true crime was written by a mean Osman with writing assistance by terrel wells, I'm Vanessa Richardson. Remember to join Alistair murden every Thursday for the all new series haunted places. Ghost stories don't miss the most chilling spirits ever imagined by authors from around the world follow haunted places go stories free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Moors Murders
"Welcome to the murder minute podcast today, the story of the moors murders. But I your true crime headlines. A southern California man is being held without bail after gunning down the mother of his child during a child custody exchange at a police station. The accused murderer thirty year old Jacob Ryan Munn dropped off his seventeen month old son at the Hawthorne police station sometime before six PM last Sunday. Then retrieved a shotgun from his vehicle, and waited when the child's mother twenty eight year old Brenda renter RIA, arrived to pick up her child a short time later. She was gunned down. She approached the front door of the police station. The victim's mother who had accompanied her daughter to the police station was not injured after the shooting Munn fled the scene in his vehicle. He was apprehended about three hours later if convicted he could face the death penalty to men in a Portland suburb called nine one one to report that a burglar was hiding in the bathroom of the home where they were house sitting they had briefly left their nephew's house to walk his dog upon returning. They could hear commotion in the bathroom and see a shadow of a suspect moving under the door. Police canine units descended on the home. They ordered the suspect to open the locked bathroom door but got no response. With guns drawn, they broke down the door and encountered they're suspect, which turned out to be a room vacuum cleaner repeatedly knocking against the shower door. The Washington county sheriff's office shared the tail on their Facebook page, along with a photo of the robotic vacuum cleaner stamped with the word captured and red letters and body, Cam footage of. Officers apprehending their suspect. Minneapolis man is being held on first degree attempted murder charges after throwing a five year old boy, over third floor railing at the mall of America last week, twenty four year old Emanuel Ronda told police that he had gone to the mall, intending to kill an adult but instead grabbed a boy who was outside a cafe on the third floor with his mother, a Rhonda, approached them grabbed the child and dropped him thirty nine feet to the ground causing life threatening injuries. A Rondo told police he had been coming to the mall for years, trying to talk to women and was frustrated and angered by their rejection. He had previously been banned from the same all for confrontations with shoppers and damaging property. His bail has been set at two million dollars. The boy remains in critical condition with multiple broken bones, and severe head trauma to Texas teenagers are facing capital murder charges after murdering a fifty three year old woman during a robbery of her home. The victim was the mother of one of the alleged. Killers the accused Daniel Saito and Matthew Dempsey both eighteen used Dempsey's key to enter the home of his mother. Mary, Helen Dempsey intending to burglarize it. They began gathering items from around the home, preparing to steal them. When Mary Dempsey unexpectedly returned she turned on her kitchen. Lighten was immediately attacked by her son, who beat her repeatedly with a baseball, bat and slit her throat with a kitchen knife. They then bound her with duct tape and covered her body with a blanket, leaving it on the living room floor. They loaded the stolen items into the victims car and fled the scene later withdrawing money from her Bank account at an ATM win. The victim did not show up for work and could not be reached her concerned employers, contacted Dempsey's daughter who went to her mother's home and discovered her car, missing, and her body concealed under the bloody blanket win. Authorities questioned Matthew Dempsey at his mobile home, a short time later, they discovered bloody clothing concealed. Trash bag at his residence. Matthew Dempsey and his girlfriend were subsequently arrested and Dempsey's girlfriend told police that he had confessed to her that he killed his mother SALCEDO was arrested a short time later and both men are being held on one million dollar bond. Oh, Wisconsin teenager has been charged with two counts of first degree murder for the killing of his grandparents last weekend Alexander Krause called nine one one on Sunday and told the dispatcher that he had just killed his grandparents and needed to be arrested by police when an officer entered the home in grand chute. They found seventy four year old Dennis Krause and his seventy three year old wife, Leith lying dead on their kitchen floor. Each of the victims had been shot in the head in a bedroom in the home. Police found a red folder with Alexander's typed out plans for the killing, he also told investigators that he had intended to cause harm at Nina high school where he was a junior. The seventeen year old is facing two counts of first degree intentional homicide and faces life in prison. If convicted a drifter who became a viral sensation six years ago is now on trial for murder in New Jersey, Caleb, McGill, -very, also known as. Guide the hatchet willing hitchhiker rose to fame after a six minute profanity Laden interview with a local news station in Fresno, after he warned an attack on two women by taking out there, Salem with a hatchet in February of twenty thirteen the clip has been viewed more than seven million times on YouTube and turned the frizzy haired hitchhiker into an instant celebrity. He remained off the grid continuing to wander around the country, and eventually crossed paths with a seventy three year old attorney named Joseph gal fi in may of the same year. The two met in Times Square, drank beers together, and then gal fi invited McGill to sleep in the guest room of his New Jersey home. He stayed with gal fi the next night as well and alleges that on the second night, Galthie drugged and raped him. And he fought back in self-defense gal fi was found dead, the next day after failing to report to work, and investigators found information on golfie cell. Phone linking him to McGill, who had written a post on his Facebook page, claiming that he had been assaulted. Police apprehended McGill re at a Starbucks in Philadelphia a few days after galaxies death. He has pleaded not guilty. Those are your true crime headlines. For more headlines, checkout, the murder minute app in the app store and Google play. Or follow us on Instagram at murder minute. Coming up next. The story of the moors murders but first, a quick break. Our story begins January of nineteen sixty one where Millward's merchandise a small chemical distributor in Manchester England was the workplace of two peculiar people to people that didn't seem to quite fit in with our coworkers the I was eaten Brady he was known to keep himself, and be a generally quiet man. His coworker said that despite his quiet demeanor. He was prone to frequent outbursts, and as if that wasn't enough, he had an obsession with Hitler's Mein cough that he kept hidden from his peers. However, the list doesn't stop there. Brady was also obsessed with fantasies of death in violence and fittingly. The Nazi regime's, countless, atrocities, our second strange yet, quite employee was Myra Hindley. She was the news employees at Millward's having began a job. As a typist that month. Unlike Brady Henley showed no warning signs that she would become a devious killer despite having a rough childhood and Lee was similar to many of her co-workers the biggest difference, though. She took an immediate liking to Brady. It wasn't long before she began to idolize him from afar and within months, she finally mustered up the courage to speak to him a few more months went by until they went on their first date from there. There was no turning back the relationship develops quickly with both of them diving into deep discussions centered around their violent fantasies. However, the fantasies weren't enough to keep them satisfied. They wanted to kill not because they had hatred in their hearts sought revenge or wanted to be criminals. But because they had long for death for the sake of death. So they walked the streets of Manchester stocking anyone that appeal to them. And search. Of their victim. That's when they spotted their target sixteen year old Pauline read a friend of Henley's younger sister was the unfortunate victim. The pair chose her solely because they believe that her death would not be seriously investigated. It seemed like there was spot on as on July twelfth nineteen sixty three she vanished leaving no trace behind. No one had seen Pauline prior to her disappearance in little move forward in terms of an official search until it was too late Brady and Hindley had already taken Pauline in their van and headed out of town towards Santa worth more once the pair had driven far enough outta town. Brady slip Pauline's throat twice with a large knife. She bled out on the moors as Brady and Henley sexually assaulted her. They buried her body with a blue coat and white heels, she was wearing and drove back into town as if nothing had happened. The couple had finally acted out their fantasy of taking. The life the satisfaction didn't last long immediately. They began to plan their next kill the target twelve year old John Kilbride in November nineteen sixty three Brady and Henley, rented a car pulled up a side John. They offered him a ride home, but he was hesitant. However, after giving him a bottle of Sherry, he agreed and got in the car not long into the ride Brady told, John, that they had to make a stop on the more because he lost his glove in Nita John's help finding it was. They arrived the same sequence happened again. Brady attack, John in tempted to slit, his throat, he was unsuccessful which led to sexually assaulting John Kilbride before strangling him with shoelace to immortalize the moment, Brady photograph. Henley closing of the young boys grave this time. They're high is lasted longer. It wasn't for another year and a half until the couple struck. Again. Their target. This time was twelve year old Keith Bennett. Keith was running late on his way to his grandmother's. House Brady and Henley now noticing the boys frantic nece offered him a ride as with the previous two victims Myra nails. That there is a stop in the Moore's, they had to make. Once they got their Brady told Keith that they were looking for his lost glove, and much like the other victims. They sexually assaulted the child before murdering him. It wasn't until the summer of nineteen sixty four that Brady buried Keith area, the Moore's that is believed to be where the other victims were buried in this case he's body was never found. But his family has continued to search for it over fifty years later, three murders. Weren't enough for Brady and Hindley before the end of nineteen sixty four they spotted ten year old Lesley, Ann Downey, standing alone by a ride at the fairground, and they were set to make her their next victim. They approached the young girl and ask. If she could help carry some things to their car, she agreed without worry. And when they asked if she could come home with them to help them unload, she got in the car. Unlike the previous killings the pair carried out the murder within the confines of their own home, Leslie was bound, gagged and forced to pose for photographs. The same story repeated itself as Lesley Ann Downey was raped and strangled. The next day, the pair, drove her body to the moors where she was buried near the other victims by the middle of nineteen sixty five braiding Henley seemed to be in the clear despite their horrific actions searches had occurred, but no one suspected them. As a matter of fact, nobody had tried to link any of the disappearances emerged together. Then the murder of Edward Evans occurred and sparked a change on Tober six Brady met Edward Evans at Manchester central railway station for this murder. Brady and Henley decided to expand their group and include Henley's brother-in-law David Smith, the to manage to get Evans back to their home, where Smith was called over. Once he arrived Brady attacked Evans. He struck him over the head with a blunt end of an axe, and then strangled Evans with an electrical cord Smith assisted Brady in disposing, the body and all seem to have gone, according to plan, however, the guilt began to creep in on Smith the next day Smith all the police and the pairs plan to expand their circle failed on October. Seventh nineteen sixty five in Brady was arrested while Meyer Henley was released the same day after claiming that Evans staff was an accident, although she was released. It didn't take long as on October eleventh, just four days later, she joined Brady and custody. The two would never be released even though they were now in custody, the full extent of what, Ian. Brady and Meyer Henley did was not clear. They were arrested only for the murder Edward Evans, which both claimed to have been an accident. At the time neither was a suspect in any of the other desks. They had acted out as a police began to investigate the story emerged in the true horror of the pairs actions was revealed the police began their search at the railway station where Brady Lert Evans Brady made a crucial mistake and didn't claim luggage with police opened it. They found nine pieces of child pornography. The pieces were photos of Leslie and Downey it wasn't until that moment that braiding Henley became suspects in her disappearance with these new pieces of evidence servicing the police had enough to suspect that braiding Henley were responsible for more murders, the police searched their house and found a notebook with the name of John Kilbride the suspicions of the police grew. And the began to wonder how many disappearances the couple was connected to the big breakthrough was when a large collection of photographs of Brady and Henley at saddle. Worth more was found from there. The hunt was on over one hundred fifty officers combed location in the pictures in search of clues in less than a week. They found their first body. It was Lesley, Ann Downey, who is easily identified by site. It wasn't long until they found the body of John Kilbride, the body had been so badly decomposed that he could only be identified by the clothes he was wearing the day he disappeared on the same day. John's body was found Brady Henley appeared before a judge. But we're only facing the accusation of the murder of Lesley, Ann Downey, two months later, they were officially accused of the murders of Lesley, Ann Downey and Edward Evans, each pled, not guilty. The police called on the payer to provide evidence, and when they did Brady spoke for eight hours while Henley spoke for six they stuck to their previous statements and denied all the charges against them. They claim. That the death of Edward Evans was an accident, and that they were in no way linked to the others. Their stories crumbled at the trial, when an audio recording of Lesley Ann Downey was played the voices of Brady and Henley were clearly audible, they could be heard forcing her to pose for photographs and threatening violence against her. The two could plead all they want. There is no way to explain this evidence Ian Brady was found guilty on accounts of all three murders. Myra Hindley was acquitted of the murder of Lesley, Ann Downey. She claimed that the murder Kurd while she was elsewhere, the public cried out for both of them to be sentenced to death. But the death penalty had been abolished in the United Kingdom only a few months before their sentencing. It's fair to say that had the death penalty not been repealed. Their fates would have been very different. Brady was handed three consecutive licenses while Henley was handed to licenses plus seven. In years, while Justice was served to their victims had been unaccounted for police had yet to connect them to the deaths of Pauline, read, and Keith Bennett this change when Kice mother when he Johnson wrote a letter to Myra Hindley. In it. She begged Henley to tell her anything she knew about her son's disappearance, though. She and Brady Brin credibly adamant that there were no other killings Henley appeared to be genuinely remorseful. For what she had done in November of nineteen eighty six she agreed to assist the police in searching, the Moore's again for the bodies that they had never uncovered though, they do not find the body of Keith Bennett. They did find the body appalling read. She was less than one hundred yards away from where Leslie Ann, Downey's body was found and only three feet underground, as time went on Myra Henley, downplayed her roles in the killing more and more for years after the trials she claimed that she was only involved in the learning kidnapping of children, leaving Brady alone to commit the murders. This was proved to be not true based on evidence in November two thousand two at the age of sixty Myra Hindley passed away. She. For a brain aneurysm that was linked to repack day, smoking habit. Though, she wished to be cremated twenty undertaker's refused to do. So on the other hand in Brady was not remorseful, and made no attempt to hide his past actions, fully aware that he would never be free again. He felt no need to deny his crimes. In addition to the five children, the pair confessed to murdering he claimed that he and Henley murdered five more, none of the descriptions, he gave matched any unsolved murders. And none of the killings were ever verified in two thousand one he published a book about serial killers, despite protests from his victims families, and has book he stays that. He does not feel remorseful for what he did and denied the claims of insanity and psychosis. He states that he did the killings for the pure, existential experience. In Brady spent fifty two years in prison until he died on September twenty. I two thousand seventeen his dying wish was that his ashes were to be spread across Saddleworth more, however, he was unceremoniously buried at sea. Protrude crime anytime. Download the murder minute app or follow us on Instagram at murder minute.
"This extra effort of women and crime. Uk edition is presented by acorn tb. This podcast may contain content. That is graphic and disturbing nature listener discretion is advised over a period of two years. Five children would disappear in manchester england and would never be seen by their loved ones again known as the most notorious child murders of their time. The country was shocked when the identity of the two perpetrators was made public. A killer couple was responsible for these brutal murders. A match made between a cruel sadist and to everyone's surprise a young female accomplice. This is episode. Forty three myra hindley story Hi amy again. How doing great to see you today and to be back recording this special. Uk edition of women and crime and loving these uk cases. They're so good aren't they. And you know we've had uk request before. And i've put them on the list. But this was really just a great impetus to like start examining the cases that we wanted to and it's so interesting because their systems so different than ours and we know this because because we taught study abroad class we brought our students with us to the uk and we got to visit prisons and courthouses and police training we did a full comparative course so actually this is a perfect setup for us to talk about the differences before we discuss the case in detail though. Let's take a moment to thank our sponsor of today's special edition episode brought to you by acorn tv acorn. Tv is a streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of exclusive award. Winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies. And so much more. Today's the third episode in our special uk addition presented by acorn tv. The myra hindley story now there were a lot of cases to choose from and this was probably the hardest part for me was narrowing them down. Did you have the same problem. yes for sure. Okay so. I chose this case in particular myra hindley because it's one of the most notorious cases and it has been requested by so many of our listeners that you know it was one of the things where i put it on the listen. I had at their over and over again so i thought this is a great opportunity. I also chose this. Because it intersects with my teaching interest which as you know are women in crime in serial offenders. So i feel like this was the one for me amy. Do you know myra hindley. I don't i feel silly saying that since you said it's one of the most notorious yup one of the things that were you and i are really great at is picking cases that maybe you know known or may not be but we don't know them. We're often telling each other a new story. I definitely know the name. I associate the name with something very evil. But that's far as i got right and if you see the pictures which everyone's gonna look at anymore. Look at two. You'll know the picture when you see you go okay. I know there's a famous picture of this to that. You'll know myra hindley was born to a normal working class. Family in nineteen forty to the family dynamic is going to play an interesting role here. I think mars father was gone for the first few years because he was in the military and this was during world war two and so for the first three years of her life. It was just myra and her mother. Her father returned after the war. Unfortunately after he came back he also came back as many people did from the service with a substantial drinking problem and it was a difference namic in the household and then shortly after he returned her sister was born. I mean this is like the baby. Boomer thing and meyer sister was born. Myra was sent to live very close in the neighborhood with her grandmother. They were financially strapped. This was a poor working class neighborhood. I read different accounts of this. You know myra was somewhat somewhat enjoying this. Because she liked living with her grandmother. And because i think she had all the attention over there and i think because she didn't have to share with her sister as much it was a good condition and because she lives so close to home she could keep going back and seeing her family so so she was going back and forth between these. Two homes is my point. Count of her home with her. Her mom and dad were mixed. I read and saw a documentary. That's add there. It was a very loving home. And i have also read though in on multiple in multiple places that her father was tough. He drank a lot that seems to be confirmed and he was abusive. And he encouraged myra to use violence as a solution to problems with others. that came from him Kind of consistently. Her neighborhood while lower working class was tight the type where and this is important where everyone knew their neighbors. And you you trusted people and remember also. This is a different era. This is the nineteen forties myers. Attendance record at school wasn't great but she was very bright and she did well in school when she was there. Kind of like my attendance record. I went to school high school. Myra was also considered pretty fashionable and had sort of an avant-garde. Look one of the things that happened to mirror that was traumatic. In her childhood she had a best friend who died of drowning and this had a very huge impact on her in terms of her behavior in her religious beliefs. I believe it was a male friend and she was about thirteen years old. And i think why this was also traumatic is that she was going to go swimming with him. That day but didn't in. This was a very close friends. So i think there were some guilt associations. So some say that. This was the impetus. This event was like the impetus to her emotional separation from people but at the same time she was forming other connections because she also made an effort here to become involved in religion and she converted to catholicism following this major event fast forward a couple of years at age seventeen myra would become engaged. But that didn't last very long. Myhrl likes the idea of it but found the idea of also traditional life. Boring not very exciting soon after the break up with her fiance she got a job as a typist and job and this is where she would. I meet ian brady. Ian brady had probably what you would view as the opposite childhood. Even if we don't know completely meyer situation. He didn't know his father at all in was born to a single mother who was forced to give him to another family when he was young. Now she still visited him and eventually he would return to live with her. But after many many years but ian was a loner he did not join in with activities by any account he was an odd ball as people described him in also began committing crimes at an early age and by sixteen he had amassed several offenses quite a criminal record. He had served a term of probation already. He had threatened a girlfriend with a knife. He showed serious signs of conduct disorder. Yes don't most. Serial killers have conduct disorder as kids. That's correct because conduct disorder is really just the way. We label antisocial behavior. But when it's in children we call it conduct disorder and advances to adulthood. We call it antisocial. So let me just give you some examples because some people might say what will what is conduct disorder. Look like in children and just so you know taken alone. These behaviors don't necessarily indicate. Your children have conduct disorder but taken together Some of the early signs are certainly physical cruelty to animals and two other children. That's also part of the macdonald triad which we've discussed before you know the triangle of behaviors. That are later to indicate some cereal offending some of the other signs are biting in hitting but serious biting and hitting you know and again not alone. I see you smiling because your kids by in hit. Sorry i know. I know again on. Its own but i know you're thinking But regular biting and hitting theft regular consistent lying these kids also Will often be engaging in acts of arson pretty young so taken together. This is conduct disorder taken alone. This might be just a normal kid. Okay myra was quite enamored with ian. From the first day they met she wrote in her diary frequently about even the smallest things that ian would do such as look at her or e and made a joke today or ian. Was airing an alfred. I took the same age. Myra was a little bit younger than me. And actually so if she was eighteen when she got this job that he was in his early twenties so not a huge age gap but she's still an eighteen year old. Did you have a diary when you were in your teens. I had a diary from when i was ten years old up till today. You still diary. Oh i didn't know that it's not like dear diary. He's so cute anymore. It's more like just like important things like a very quick few lines a day. That's funny do you do it every day. Interesting james's started doing that too. I had a diary when i was about ten eleven. It lasted for like a year. I was like this sucks. It's so fun to read all diaries who quite so far right. We'll she wrote. I mean. I don't know you know you were probably all about who's cute. Who liked to write teenage now. It's like i really wish my kids who go to bed early so our to myself but anyway okay. So i think that the things that myra were writing probably weren't far off for seventeen or eighteen year old girl at the time who's in a diary or eighteen year old woman ian however did not take tomorrow right away or as quickly Some would say this is because ian wasn't really interested in women but eventually the two became a couple seemingly because in was very influential over mirus beliefs and he could influence her world views to become more like his. Myra tried for a while to get his attention. I mean it was definitely a good year. Eventually he asked her out. But i think it was her persistence. That kind of gave in. And i think it's important to note here as i said. I think what ian recognized admira was. She had such admiration for him that he could manipulate or influence advantage of it. You know he had power over her. And i think that that was what was alluring to him. Ian had very distorted political religious and sexual views and he exposed myra two different world views than she had been accustomed to that she had grown up with you know in a strict disciplinarian religious home. He introduced her to sadistic sexual behaviors which they engaged with together. He also influenced her. He denounced religion and so he influenced her views on religion remember. She had been a catholic. He had an obsession with nazi. Germany and montcalm So he was very influenced by hitler and hitler's teachings. I think their first movie might have been the nuremberg trials. That's a bad sign. Somebody's interested in that. You might want to run the other way. These are all bad signs. Actually from ian. And i think what you're gonna find as it gets much worse quickly as they're dating and has they've been spending time together and has he. Can you know see that. He's influencing her he. I asked myra to help him with a robbery which they didn't actually commit. He didn't really ultimately come- into saks. I'm not sure if he wasn't really interested. I think with this was more of a test he was looking to see. Was meyer loyal. And how far would she go for him. And in that regard. Meyer proved very successful very quickly for ian so they skip the robbery and escalated to some of the most serious violent offenses imaginable. Those targeting children. Pauline reade was the first victim of this statistic duo. Pauline was sixteen and on the night of for disappearance. She was all dressed up for a dance that she was supposed to attend with her friends at her school her mom i watched the documentary and her mom described her exact outfit and how she walked her daughter to the end of the street watching her. Go off and seeing her so happy and it was. You know really a sad moment when you heard the description and saw everything and what happened in. This instance is that. Myra borrowed a van and drove it behind. Her brady was following on a motorcycle. And what he was actually doing with scouting for victims when brady saw pauline walking alone down the street getting towards the evening time. He flashed morrow with his motorcycle and that was the signal that he had picked out his victim. And then it was myers. Turn to jump in. And what role was to lure the young girl into the van. And this wasn't really difficult for myra. Because of the small community they lived in my actually new pauline rate so she was easily able to get her into the car and they're like they're kind of peers. Right how old is myra. She's not that old. Yes so that's the interesting part. Because pauline sixteen and i think myra might have been twenty you know. I mean not exactly peers macaque. Yeah close enough in age. It was a bizarre situation though. Because i watch these two documentaries. And they said that. Myra asked her to help with some miniscule task and i'm like okay. What's that miniscule task. Myra said she lost a glove but it was really important. It could pauline help her find it so random. It's a random bizarre thing. I also don't know how important gloves were than bill. Maybe it was expensive but anyway. Pauline essentially agreed pretty quickly to help her. Was pauline on her way to the dancer way home. She was on her way to it. And i think she was meeting her friends. And so i'm imagining that mirus. Can you tell me find something that'll give you a ride. Your friend's house during yeah and again knew each other. She's a female two females. It's it's more innocuous. But what pauline didn't know is that ian brady was going to be following them and would meet up with them. Brady followed them to the remote wilderness of saddleworth more more is a rugged hilly area covered in mossy grass and this unpopulated area. He basically took pauline alone for a while. There is not much description here. Except that myra drove out there. He walked pauline out alone. Myra stayed behind and what we do know. Is that somewhere in the moore's in this area. He sexually assaulted pauline and slashed her throat. And then he called myra over to the scene to help him clean up and drive away from the scene. The description here is basically that myra led the girl in ian took her. Myra goes and waits based on whose account both of their account. This was definitely based on the police account and then myers account. But it's also alleged but not proven that. Myra participated in the sexual assault on pauline as well. That information didn't come 'til much later and that could not be corroborated later on. I'm not sure about this. Ian had the sadistic tendencies already and he had been accustomed to harming people. I think that this was mirus first. Introduction and by the way by all accounts she was actually excited to help him and she was excited to be a part of this not like scared. But i'm not sure on the first go if she would have participated in this so i think i would take this one with a grain of salt this their first victim their next victim a young boy twelve year old. John gilbride now long after quickly. This happened all in a two year period. Which is kind of quick because we're talking about five victims of the end so for serial offenders. Two years five victims is somewhat quick. He was lord by the couple to the car after coming out of a movie to the cinema by himself and with my renton the car again. He was probably not too afraid. This was a different again. A different time tight knit community. People were certainly more trusting. You knew your neighbors. John was then unfortunately There's going to be similar pattern. He was taken out to the moors and led by his death and returned after about a half an hour explaining that he had strangled the boy with a shoelace because his knife broken him. Yeah this is i mean. There's a brutal crimes their next victim the victim number. And myra wasn't didn't take part in that myra did not take. We don't know for sure. I will say that we are going to know for sure. One of the crimes at meyer took pardon. She admittedly freely admitted that she was an accomplished. She planned it. She drove but she would say that she did not take part you separate with the end. Give him his space to do what he was going to do. Their next victim was twelve year. Old keith bennett again. Using the same modus operandi keefe was coaxed in the vehicle. Keith was actually walking the short distance from his mother's house to his grandmother's house in the local neighbourhood. He was taken to the more henley followed behind him this time but she stood as lookout while brady sexually assaulted and then murdered the boy in the moors and they left his body. They always left the bodies there. The next murder would be the fourth one and this would be different. This was murder of ten year old. Lesley ann downey young. Leslie was at a fair when she was lord to their car by the promise of a reward to help this young couple. Carry some bags to their car. They had a couple of bags near her and they dropped to them. They were like food bags and said oh. Would you mind helping us. We'll give you you know something for the fair. And so i mean she's a ten year old girl but in this instance when they got her to the car take straight up to the. Moore's they took leslie to their whole which marks a very substantial change in their pattern at their home. They bound her the gag. addressed her. They photographed her e and strangled her her body cleaned in the tub and they eventually transported her to the moore's the next day and disposed of her. But why this is different. And why this is significant. There's a couple of things first of all taking her to the home means. They're getting more comfortable. they're going straight to the moore's they don't want to be ready to home that once see. They're getting comfortable and that's they're getting more bolder but they're also then getting more reckless because they are taking a big chance and this does happen with people. When they're getting a little more successful they escalate things happen. A little quicker and some people were can perfect their craft but others are going to take more risks. Because they've got away with it a today show is sponsored exclusively by our favourite british streaming service acorn tv and we invite everyone to support acorn. Tv because their support allows us to keep our show free for you all. Here's why we love them. Acorn tv is a commercial free streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of award winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies and so much more and acorn. Tv has exclusive premieres and originals. That you won't see anywhere else. Amy right now. I am super excited about law and order uk. I knew you would love that one. I've watched every law and order from the beginning. I've been a fan for years. You've seen several many times. Oh i can recite some of them by heart for all eu law and order fans out there. Dick wolf's long-running us police procedural drama gets a british tweak as the action shifts from new york to london. The irish independent describes the iconic cop and courtroom station just as engrossing as its american counterpart you can stream law and order uk on acorn tv now. Plus you get thousands of hours of new refreshing content on court. Tv for a fraction of the cost compared to most dreaming services at just five ninety nine a month from all of us that women in crime uk we think acorn tv for sponsoring today's show because it sponsors like acorn tv that make what we do possible. Try acorn tv free. For thirty days by going to acorn dot tv and use my promo code. Women that's acorn. A. c. o. r. n. dot tv and use my promo code women w. o. m. e. n. Myra was always the lore. This is similar. we've talked about some cases. between males and females I don't know if you remember when we covered. Karla homolka and paul bernardo at. That's what i was thinking this whole time. You are okay. Yeah i mean. Women are obviously easier to trust especially for vulnerable victims children. It also makes me think of case i covered with. It wasn't a male and partner. But do you remember the melissa. Huckaby case how. Could i forget that. Okay you know. She was easily able to lure her neighbors and sandra cantu into the car because sandra knew her she's a woman she's also a mother so this makes women because of their gender A better lore. They got bolder but then they got even more bold and really i would say they just got careless arrogant and stupid on this. Because it was their last victim that would be their downfall of these. Two serial killers brady had allegedly so ian had allegedly met seventeen year old edward gabe bar. And the implication was that brady had lured him to the house. With the idea of a sexual encounter now brady had been sort of grooming myra as brother-in-law david smith for some time meyer sister. Maureen was married to david smith. They were younger at this point. Ian is in his twenties. So as myra. But david smith was only seventeen and i don't know how older sister maureen was. But smith became enamored with ian brady and with his lifestyle and saw him. You know kind of as a bad ass. You know not knowing. He did not know the extent of brady's you know violent tendencies but he did know that he was you know he engaged in criminal activities. And what brady thought was that. He could recruit smith into his crimes and his lifestyle. But into the whole lifestyle. And so once. Brady had edward evans at the house. And david smith was there as well he murdered evans with a hatchet to his skull from behind after sexually assaulting him he didn't sexually assault him but he murdered him in front of david smith. It's with his way to see a kid could hang. It was yes and essentially what happened to was that he put him in the position of will. Now you're in on this. You know what i mean. And i mean what happened was basically a terrified. David smith took orders and he helped clean up the mess and cover up the body for disposal. But we're there for this one. Oh yeah myers and air cleaning in the kitchen As if though this was not such an abnormal and she was definitely present for this one and she wasn't at all appalled or whatnot. It was it was pretty obvious that she had become accustomed to this but they underestimated david smith because he went home afterwards and he and his wife called the police. He did not want anything to do with murder. This was a step too far for him. He also mentioned a suitcase that the two had filled with incriminating evidence of their crimes in the house. He saw them do it and they removed the suitcase from the house. So now the police are thinking. Okay great we have a witness to something. But they're like what's in this suitcase case. You know if we're going to search the house where we're gonna find if they've moved everything out so while they were executing a search of the house based on this phone call. The police found a ticket for a left luggage station in manchester. Have you ever heard the term before. I don't know if we just don't know the turnabout left luggage is a place where you can leave luggage short term. I yeah i wouldn't know anything either. And so the police got the ticket and they went and retrieved the suitcases when they went through the suitcase. They found everything to help them. Identify what myra and ian had done and who their victims were. Here's where i said member leslie. Ann would be different because they took all those photographs of her in their home so they found the photographs of her. And what's even worse. Amy is found a tape that e n and my remained recording her. It was so upsetting that most of the officers cried when they were listening to it. Apparently lesley cried out from her mother and prayed to god to help her on this. Sixteen minute tape. And here's what else it showed. Though then later was involved. Not only was she involved but she sadistic too and she enjoyed it. She's cruel and it shows it clearly that it's not just ian and she's the subdued one. She was an equal participant here. so that's why she was involved in the absolutely yes. She was involved. Police were also to match fingerprints or photographs. Tamara in ian from the suitcases. The photographs also helped because they had photographs at different parts in the moors and the police were like. They're taking photographs near their gravesites. So it was. They were able to help with locating and retrieving some of the victims. There were a lot of photos and they they start for miles and miles. You have to understand. The the land is very difficult and on one of the searches. They just didn't find anything you know for a long time. And then an officer went out to like relieve himself and wound up coming across a bone and when it was fully prodded it was determined to be small girl. It turned out to be leslie. So that's how they found her. Well now we're moving to you. Know ian and myra are arrested. And they go to trial when they went to trial and tried to protect myra he actually wrote to her. Giving her ideas for how to distance herself from the crimes but myra was more resolute that she and ian were both innocent so she was loyal to him prior to trial as well. This is a change to normally. What happens is someone turns on the other one. They did not turn each other. She refused to blame in to save herself and ian wouldn't turn either until much later. That is unfortunately. Her strategy failed in fact. Had she listened to him. I think she might have had a very different outcome. We've seen this happen before. Just talking about case in point karla homolka and paul bernardo carlos struck a deal she cooperated and she got twelve years whereas bernardo got life. He's up for pearl that he'll never get out. There's also a couple that i thought of though Craig titus kelly ryan have you ever heard of them. They murdered their assistant. Melissa james i remember this They were both involved and he wound up with something like twenty to fifty years but she got paroled. Twelve years again for turning on him for myra this likely have proven successful strategy in terms of her sentence because these two were both found guilty and was ultimately charged with the murders of lesley. Ann downey john gilbride and edward edmonds and he was found guilty for all and received three life sentences for his crimes. Myra was charged with lesley ann. Downey and edward ends and to being an accessory to the murder of john gilbride and she received two life. Sentences in prison are if you're going to get into this. But why would they charge her with murder. They had evidence as you said that she was an accomplice with the she was charged with murder for two of the cases for leslie and they had the tape and for edward edmonds. Because they had david smith testifying that myra helped gotcha For john gilbride. I suspect they didn't have enough proof for them. One at that time after this trial myra had maintained her innocence for many years. She cleaned the tape. She said that it was all and basically what she said was that she was a victim of him. So she's turning on him now because he said at first. She said they were both innocent. Yeah okay she did turn on him. It took years and what she said. Was that yeah. He was the mastermind. I was under his control. I was his victim like other people were several years later. She finally confessed. And at this point she really had no other options to get out of prison. She was eligible for parole to certain point and maintaining her innocence was not gonna work for her and she realized it and she realized that no one believes it anymore so she began to talk about. This took twenty years. Just say you know mind you but she began to talk about her role in the murders and offered to help the police because she was hoping it would get her parole. She was hoping that it was in response as well to keep bennett. Remember one of the victims. Bennett's mother wrote to myra pleading with her to please help. We can't find his body. All i wanted her his remains. I think this did provide somewhat of an impetus from irish. She might have had some type of feelings. But i think she also realized that this was an opportunity for her to work with the police. Myra had been a model inmate all those years. Mind you for twenty years. And she had been advocating for her own release very publicly and so. This was another way. She could try to basically secure parole. And you still have these two missing victims. You still had pauline and keith. Who had never been recovered. Their families wanted their remains. And so did the police brady would also talk to the police. But it was different so ian. Talk to the police. But he'd only discuss two of the murders. Pauline and keith. Ian brady was extremely difficult though. He would not allow the police to take notes when he came in. They said that he always had to be in control dictating the course of actions that they took how they did it but brady wasn't able to help them find the remains. It was long after. And myra had trouble to. This was monday. Twenty years the terrain had changed. They couldn't remember exactly where anything was regarding ian. There was dr alan keatley. A college tutor from the west midlands befriended brady and asked him what his motivation was for targeting. These children brady answered existential exercises in other words testing his theory that he was free to live as he liked and seeing how far he can push it. Preoccupations were lowering me to take the path of pure in which the will to dare all and suffer. The consequences was becoming all important and solution. Would it really is is basically saying. Because i wanted to. I wanted to do way of saying that. I wanted to do it. I wanted to see how far i could go. And because you know you people have a boring life. But i'm doing exactly what i wanted to do. Brady said the morons out. There are the ones who are mad. People who live conventional dull boring. Life's so his was anything but conventional and he was pushing the boundaries. He also said myra was surprisingly in tune with me from the very beginning. I was never conscious of having to exert myself to coarser into accepting my belief in relativist morality. She was as ruthless. As i was. So he's now throwing her under the bus a little bit. Yeah no he's definitely is the didn't blame her and say she did certain things that he did but he said she was. She accepted this. She chose mister nice girl. Brady was also diagnosed as being chronically psychotic later on in life. So maybe you're right about the delusions suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. Which was marked by perceptual disturbances. Delusional ideas disorganized thaw in speech. This diagnosis came in nineteen eighty-five and he went on a very long hunger strike and had to be force fed from two. So what happened is that they didn't. The police didn't have any luck with him. But the police did have more luck with myra helpful. She was able to locate the gravesite of pauline. So the families and the and the police were able to get pauline remains back and brady meanwhile goes on to die in prison after being bedridden for several years at the age of seventy-nine from emphysema. Myra died in prison at age. Sixty after serious respiratory failure. They did not ever find keith. Bennett's body however after brady's death he left to lock suitcases for his lawyer to keep the police bennett's family have hoped there be way like clues to keith whereabouts in these suitcases but to date they've not been able to gain access to the documents in the suitcases. Very recently. there was talk of home secretary. Pretty patel preteen patel to bring a new police crime sentencing in court spell which would force the killers lawyer solicitor to grant police access to those briefcases. That's probably the last hope for finding the remains of this young boy. All right amy. I'm gonna ask you what your thoughts are on. Ian and brady who i think is more straightforward. You mean. how can we explain ends behavior. Sure the fact that he had conduct disorder that really planes. That all right. He had antisocial tendencies from a young age. Yeah and i don't. I don't think you need much more other than you know that you said he had a tough upbringing. I can't remember now. Yeah no yeah. It was an awful childhood early conduct disorder later antisocial behavior. I would also say though He had a preference for children. I believe and i think his preference for children was around ten to twelve some of his were victims of opportunity. But i think that's the age range is a pedophile a sadistic pedophile. Yeah it was a sadistic interesting because you know you have sexual offender versus sexual predator which is different. The predator are more dangerous as they're not seeking like a pedophile seeks to establish a relationship with the people in the age group so he wasn't seeking to establish which makes him a clear predator. He's the most dangerous sign. So i think it's fair assessment to say he he developed into full blown psychopathy. Now how about myra. There's a couple of big questions here. I mean one of them is. How do we explain. Her behavior would have become a killer if she never met ian. Was she a sadistic sexual killer. If she didn't carry out the killing but she enjoyed it. Is she a pleaser. She a psychopath so there are a lot of questions here. What what would be your opinion. I mean she's clearly sadistic whether or not. She participated in any of the crimes like just knowing they were happening. And being that accomplice clearly sadistic i think definitely sadistic tendencies. How do you explain it. Is there any criminological theory. That comes to your mind. Giving the background that i told you about her as well. I mean social definitely social learning. She was learning from in. She was learning from two people l. Her father's violence gas well. I believe you mentioned that. Her father taught her the way to solve. Problems is too violent. Obviously if you you know you look at where the most influenced by those closest. That was her father teaching her. This is the way we handle things and then she meets this man who she clearly enamored by and he's violent so it's just it's also reinforced differential reinforcement to right. It's reinforcing that violence gets you what you want. Because they didn't get caught right away. Each time they got away with it that reinforces the fact that oh this is working. So we're going to do it again. Think definitely social learning which obviously differential association and differential reinforcement are under social learning. But it's just the idea that she was learning these behaviors from people around. I agree learning theory. It's hard to evaluate female psychopathy as well because there aren't any solid measures or at least the pc l. r. and other diagnostic tools. Were not originally intended for women and the little research on female psychopathy shows that there are similarities between male and female psychopaths. But they're different also in that women don't have the same criminal behaviors. They don't tend to show the outward aggression. you think she was a psychopath. I think maybe yeah. No i do think she was their emotional feelings. Also differ. they tend to be more anxious their differences between males and females. But when i look at the shared characteristics the lack of empathy the pension for manipulation. Lying need for stimulation and boredom. I think myra does probably fit in there. I agree though that she also probably socialized in some ways into vilocci. I'm sure she had a personality disorder and there too. Well i if if if she's antisocial i mean if we're talking about that is the personality disorder and psychopathy isn't psychopathy is them most extreme form. But i'm saying you could be antisocial without being psychopathic. Yes you can have antisocial traits without being. That's what i'm saying so she. I think she might be antisocial. I don't know if she escalates. Psychopathy go i with four idea psychopathy. I think so. But i couldn't be positive but beyond beyond criminal logically. There's the notoriety of myra. So why the notoriety i. She's a woman and for that she's more reviled than ian Woman who committed sexual acts and murder against children thus violating the gender role especially of the nineteen sixties of the housewife motherly woman. There's also the fact that just one year before their trial. Britain eliminated the death penalty and so people were up in because they they just say these are the cases that deserve yes and it was just like god if we'd just held onto it for another year there's also the relation to rosemary west. Have you heard of her. Of course yes okay. So she's also a very notorious serial killer And the fact that the incarceration of these two women overlapped now rosemary. West's was much later. She was in the nineteen nineties. But the comparisons made between them and the supposed- relationship they briefly shared in prison really yes. They both had experiences with females. Later on which happens in prison but so it became a sanguine when the two of them kinda so they were romantically involved rumored that they were briefly. Romantically involved cannot so interesting but they also shared the same. They were both sadistic child. Serial killers who killed with their partners and whose crimes involve violence and both very notorious cases in the the only difference and it said that myrow seemed to look down on west because west killed some of her own children. And myra is rumored to have felt superior. One of the reasons are the legacy and reputation of myra hindley lives on and fifty five years later. She is still dubbed the most evil woman in britain. And we just want to say a big again to acorn tv. For giving us the opportunity to bring you additional four episodes. Don't forget to try your thirty days free at. Www dot acorn tv when you use promo code women thanks again. Everyone for listening. And we'll catch you next time on women in crime. Women in crime is written and hosted by megan sacks and amy schlossberg our producer and editor is james. Varga music composition is by desert media. If you enjoyed the show please remember to subscribe and leave a review. You can also support the show while gaining access to add free episodes exclusive. ama's and other bonus content for a small monthly contribution for patriot for more information visit patriotic dot com slash women and cry Sources for today's episode include documentary the moors murders the new york times the documentary the horrible crimes of myra henley the journal of personality disorders psychology. Today bbc news the daily star and the sun today show is sponsored exclusively by our favorite british streaming service acorn tv and we invite everyone to support acorn. Tv because their support allows us to keep our show free for you. All here's why we love them. Acorn tv is a commercial free streaming service. That's rooted in british television. It has a rich catalogue of award winning series across genres including mysteries dramas comedies and so much more and acorn. Tv has exclusive premieres and originals. That you won't see anywhere else this one. I'm excited about. Because i was a huge fan of shameless. This one is called. No offense and it's from the creator of shameless. No offense is a gritty drama full of twists and turns fierce female characters and shrewd irreverent. Take on crime. No offense is a bafta nominee for best drama series and the new york times called it a beautiful balance of seriousness and binge ability. No offense is the no-hold-bars police procedural you didn't know you've been looking for streaming now on acorn tv from all of us that women in crime. Uk we think acorn tv for sponsoring today's show because it sponsors like acorn tv. That make what we do possible try acorn. Tv free for thirty days by going to a corn dot tv and use my promo code women. That's acorn r. n. Dot tv and use my promo code women w. o. m. e. n.