16 Episode results for "Laura Ramirez"

Episode 111:  en(gender)ed Reflections on the gendered impact of COVID-19

en(gender)ed

1:07:14 hr | 3 months ago

Episode 111: en(gender)ed Reflections on the gendered impact of COVID-19

"Podcast listeners welcome to engendered the show that features stories that explore the systems, practices and policies that enable gender-based violence and oppression. And the solutions to ended. We used gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonized, and mine's one story at a time. Engendered sponsored by can do it. Spelled K. N. D. U. I. T. and I'm your host, Terry UN. Welcome Michael. Hello Hi Terry. I'm good. Thank you for joining us for this episode of reflection looking back on the gender impact of Covid nineteen so today we're going to be reviewing starting with episode ninety six Lower Ramirez of a firm on decolonizing quote, Unquote Sex Work Episode Ninety Seven, a survivor story series with Carol and parenting with an abuser during covert episode ninety nine with Martin Holtman. Holtman on misogyny and masculinity and climate. Change Denial episode, one hundred, another survivor story with Nicole Lee on domestic abuse with a disability episode, one on one with Nazir Afzal on cove, nineteen or the corona viruses impacted domestic violence episode one. Oh, two with jen camel on covert nineteenth impact on pregnancy and reproductive rights and finally episode one. Oh, eight feminism in. In the age of Covid Nineteen Conference on domestic violence, you know, let's start with the common thread that connects all of these episodes, which is the gendered impact on cove it. We talked about this in the trailer episode before the series where we explored that women are GonNa be disproportionately impacted that women were more likely to be represented on the frontlines is. is essential workers as low income workers and that Cova? An unemployment was gonNA. Disproportionately impact them childcare, but then these episodes really I think have a common lens of the gender impact, being negative and the negative impact, being one I would characterize as violence either physical violence, emotional, violence, psychological violence or economic violence. Let's start from that perspective. Has Anything surprised you? I feel bad. These episodes have. A lot to the conversation. There's many things that I didn't consider before. I didn't consider for example Laura Ramirez conversation about prostitution in how it could have its potential effect on that a mean. When we're talking about feminism effects, almost every single aspect of our lives, and so it it's pretty hard to anticipate so many different factors. I'm glad you brought up Laura Ramirez. She's a an amazing activist and ally in this work. And I was so honored to be able to speak with her, so we talked about prostitution and pornography and Cova impact on sex, trafficking and prostitution. I'm curious. Did you know anything about the debate? Within the feminist community around prostitution, those who support the equality or the Nordic model versus those who are trying to decriminalize both the selling and the purchasing of prostitution. Were you aware of this dichotomy this debate? There were a lot of things that I wasn't aware of and it took me. It took me a while for me to understand a lot of these things so like when I listen to her I finally was able to put a couple of things together I do remember that before. I understood the argument of decriminalizing prostitution in order to protect the women who are victims of it, and it made sense to me at the time, but then when I looked more into it, and with the addition of what Laura was saying and I was able to understand that both of equality model wants to do the same thing which is to protect victims and we. We don't want to even worse situation, so one of the things that really stood out to me is Laura mentioned is that we wanna make sure that we understand that these are crimes that are happening to women, right or friends that are happening to these victims, and it's not something that we should allow to happen to sort of help. The perpetrators in sex trafficking rice. We don't WanNa be helping the the pimps and take away accountability instead of WanNa, make sure we put a light on the abuses and be able to prosecute them, and not not let any of these perpetrators potentially use this to their advantage and to extend their their power. I really appreciate that Laura was able to make it very clear in her language, characterizing the differences between those who want to make prostitution. Legal and decriminalized that which the Nordic model and equality model supports versus those who want full decriminalization and want to be able to allow the purchasers of prostitution, the buyers. The pimps the John's. To not be prosecuted because they want to legitimize prostitution as a quote, unquote industry where prostitutes can be unionized, etc, and so she described the difference between those two as harm prevention. which is the equality model? And Harm Reduction, which is the full decriminalization model and to me I like that because yes, if we know that people are going to be harmed by becoming prostituted. Why would we want that? Why wouldn't we want to give them? The option to be educated and and enabled equipped with skills to be able to earn a living a living wage in other areas, and of course that requires that we have enforcement of pay equity. We need to get rid of the gender pay gap. We need to get rid of the gender. Gender Wealth Gap. We need to get rid of the gender gap in so many areas, but to be able to say that will these people the only thing that certain communities can use as a survival tool is to prostitute themselves is to basically enslaved themselves and that we need to give them right so that they can continue to be able to do that. Seems very course because if you're if you have no other choice, that's not really a choice. You're not acting from a point of agency, and so I really am very frustrated with the community of people who call themselves feminists and don't believe that prostitution is a form of exploitation. Right one of the things that crossed my mind when when you when you were talking to her about it was maybe the comparison of legalizing every single drug for example right which I think that potentially has a a lot of harm to it because. Let's say a corporation takes. This takes drugs. For example. Let's say a cocaine and advertises it to away like cigarettes advertised for children or have advertised source chosen back in the day, and even I believe they still do that now. They'll take something harmful and be able to spread it even more so I think another comparison bet that can kind of put together that like. Can you imagine a large corporation like like not like Amazon, but something just as powerful or cigarette company that will traffic more and more women legally like that would be out. Be just awful. Yeah and I think that you know that we also talked about the intersection between trafficking and prostitution and pornography, and how under co Vid in certain parts of the world like Australia, she gave the example where. People I mean it's I'm laughing, but you know out of absurdity, not because it's funny, people who are going to prostitutes are demanding mass, and yet there might not be that same level of care with regard to prophylactics right and other ways of ensuring that those who are prostituted. Susceptible to STD's, and so on the one hand they still WanNa. Go and protect themselves, but it's not this mutual consideration that they're giving to the person who's providing the quote unquote service, so it's so similar to what's happening. When it comes to essential workers, right grocery store, workers or retail workers where people are saying I to man to go into the store, and if you make me wear a mask, then I'm going to boycott your store, but it's almost like well. You're not allowed to wear a mask, but then reverses. The reverse the inverse. Where if you were A to protect yourself? I don't want to I'm going to make myself a risk to you and similarly like they're protecting themselves in prostitution by. Or demanding! That the woman where a prostitute whereas a mask, but then they don't care about the the risk of disease. It's just ridiculous to me. I mean especially when it comes to prostitution and feel like they use women as just just tools like they don't care is like using a pencil. You don't care what happens to the pencil like they don't care what happens to the Treat them as a person I. Think a lot a lot of times I. Don't know if you saw this video online where this guy went into a costco and he's recording the employees, the Costco Employees Asking him to wear masks He's going to refuse service if he doesn't wear a mask and he's just really nasty. This employee and the employee takes away his cart of and he just he feels it looks like He. He somehow feels victorious that he's doing this because he's in self. Recording this in putting it online and does. He looks so ridiculous. He just doesn't care about the person that he's talking to. It seems like he only cares about himself. So I think this is just this just highlights that. Yeah, I would agree with that as well It seems that every episode gave us an opportunity to explore that a little bit more because sometimes we are able to see how abusers will a- change their tactics. Based on this new situation, and how they use both psychological in actual violence to. Inflict on their victims, and it seems I agree that women are disproportionately affected. It seems that They seem to be the ones that not just in the household, but also in the environment that. They we. Society as a whole has. Has, put them in a disadvantage of both but I think also that this sort of highlight, some of the issues that have happened that have been occurring before. Cove it I. Think I. Think Kobe has exposed a lot of the ugly truth of this abuse in this violence that you just mentioned. Basically, the fact that women despite being half of the world's population don't have equal rights under the constitution in this country, and how that translates into policy is we have a very very clear and large gender pay gap, which then exacerbates agenda Wealth Gap, there is not affordable healthcare, not affordable childcare, and so when you have that situation like you were saying and a crisis occurs then those disparities become even more pronounced, and so let's start with. With Carol for example and parenting with an abuser, so when you're in a system where the the courts and law enforcement have already systemically not listen to and not believe survivors of domestic violence, and then a crisis happens. That's usually an opportunity for someone to explain that to their advantage so with Carol her former husband, who used her works in healthcare, and he started using the circumstances of Covid to put herself who is immuno-compromised at health. By putting their kids deliberately in daycare, and while she is available to actually watch them, so sh- that was I think too many people. That kind of tactic doesn't seem like. It's a big deal. It might seem innocent, but when you're someone who is really worried about staying healthy, so you could watch and take care of your children and your quote Unquote Co parent is not only not letting you see your child during a time when you can, but putting them in daycare where there aren't the same level of precautions and health wise and actually says I don't care if you get sick. That seems like a deliberate, if not militias act towards someone who has been victimized. Too I. DO think that there is a big. Section of the population that would look at this and be appalled by this kind of behavior I mean. This man was a person who worked in the healthcare industry, and he had an increased exposure to the virus. She mentioned that when they would meet up. He would go. To two visits with scrubs on, and so it kind of indicates that you may be contaminated in your may be spreading it right, and on top of that it's not just the physical act of of of of him possibly being, it's also his his attitude like you just mentioned he did say I. Don't care if you get if you get. You'RE GONNA. Get everybody's GonNa get it anyways. which is something that May? May Not necessarily true. He has like this kind of attitude that a lot of other people have like Oh. Wearing the mask is like taking away my freedom right, which is seen not just him, but a whole bunch of other people in the media that I've seen and also just walking down the street. Typically, it's more likely for me to see white males, not wearing their masks, and not really caring about. About social distancing while everyone else in general, not all white males, but it seems like that's the they see most. That doesn't seem to care as much, but it is a very real danger and I. do think that I do think a different people will take a look at it in different ways like for example, even though that's a healthcare worker that seem to care I have a friend for example bat is. Is a nurse and she takes several steps to make sure that she doesn't. infect her family right so even though she goes to work or times a week, basically now, which is more than normal. She goes into a separate room. She stays in a separate room from the rest of her family, so she doesn't possibly contaminate the rest of her household, so she has parents that are little bit older. Just WanNa With Carol's ex husband because I believe the scrubs, example was when they were married, and he and he would come home, and she had asked him to take the scrubs off, and he didn't, and it wasn't in any situation. Currently unless you remember that he was wearing scrubs to the police station where they're doing exchanges, because the only time they connect is on, the police is at the police station otherwise she picks up the kids at the daycare center. Believe that that's what she said. Yeah I remember you mentioning your friend the nurse, so there's like a little bit of a gender difference in how people are responding to this cry for collective care, there's the sense of entitlement that seems to show mainly along gender lines where men are feeling like they can't breathe, and their freedoms are being infringed upon whereas they're not asked him society, as often as women are to think about other people and so women are more likely probably because we're socialized to be amenable to making these kinds of sacrifices right I, Guess Society tells them to be more to compromise more. You're like that's the case thinking back on the previous episodes around the `gendering of. Of Girls Tom Dick. B.'s episode where we're. We're socialized to be. Caretakers were socialized to sacrifice ourselves to put other people's needs ahead of hours. Yeah, so this is actually a good segue into our next episode ninety nine with Martin Hultman. A researcher based out of Sweden and his research on misogyny and Masculinity on Climate Change Denial, so he has these three archetypes of masculinity, the industrial breadwinner, the Eko modern mail, and and then finally a new masculinity that he proposes called the ecological masculinity, which is a response to the former, too, so let's talk about these two archetypes, the industrial breadwinner and the echo modern mail basically archetypes that define men as being. In charge and having to take care of women provide, and how these archetypes actually form an ideological basis for men who adhere to them to be more likely to engage in climate, change denial right? Yeah, so these these are ways of these these groups that to be white males, and they seem to be more privileged or what we would consider privilege to have this type of our type. Yeah, said there's this that there's a strong influence of extremist views such as sexism and far right nationalism that connects these men in their reluctance to believe in the climate crisis and act and take any action. Huntsman. mentioned that there is a lot of this binary thinking where there's male versus female, and it's something that he feels that we shouldn't be thinking of how we relate to each other in such a binary by nature. It seems like we are fate more in a spectrum and that seems to be more useful. Yeah and I think that's kind of one of the tenants of feminism. Isn't that gender binary which is imposed by patriarchy polices us to fit into this box that doesn't allow us to be fully embodied as human beings to be our best selves to self actualize to explore moving outside of that binary, and all the different ways in which our interests and our passions might align with the other gender, and and so it's that binary that forms the basis also of Martin's. Intersection with ECO feminism that there's this connection between. Climate Change Denial and sexism and Misogyny, because both are rooted in understanding that men's power and privilege is used to assert itself over women in the same way that it's used to assert itself dominate nature. Right and I would say also even other men right they use. These kind of tactics find ways to dominate both men, nature, and and women. Yeah, that's actually something that comes up later, but the the premise of patriarchy male supremacy is that men juice their power and privilege to assert dominance over women, but also the assert dominance over other men, and the other men are men who may be not are adhering to the gender binary men who are more effeminate. They could be someone who is overtly displaying feminine quote Unquote Feminine qualities like Caring and compassion. Maybe. They're not playing sports team sports. Maybe they like these stereotypes, but they like hanging out with girls. They like talking about their feelings. They like leading doing things that are more reflective and not action oriented and competitive right and one of the things that he mentioned is group of men that outright reject that kind of male like like You mentioned the insult community right where they take these these thoughts that maybe they should have this dominance over women, and we blame the woman if they are not chosen to be their mate, right, so that's. Kind of this community that engenders this eight and anger. So victim blaming is definitely one of the ways in which sexism and misogyny manifests itself as a symptom in society, so in sells for listeners who haven't heard of the term stands for involuntarily celibate, so men who basically are not able to date have a relationship victim blame the women, because sometimes the victim blamed the women and the men that they're dating, maybe the men that they're dany are more attractive or have more status, or are traditionally more masculine and appearance and have appearances that are more valued by society. Society and so these in cells blame both definitely the women, and sometimes the men that they're dating for them, not being able to be sexually active, and then they act out on their celibacy by potentially engaging in threats or threats of violence or violence themselves, so lots of Mash shooters belong to insult communities for example right I was going to mention that a lot of mass shooters have identified as cells. In fact, there is a lot of right wing violence. That has that happens here in the United States is. There is much more right wing violence than any other kind of by even terrorism like Islamic terrorism, the overwhelming type of violence political violence is right wing with regard to right wing extremists. Yes, the Southern Poverty Law Center has definitely identified right wing extremists and white supremacist as one of the biggest domestic threats, domestic terrorist groups in this country, but under the trump administration they have downplayed their role and have refused to actually take any action to do anything about them to deter to devote resources to catching them and criminalizing their behavior and convicting them. Right, we've seen on the protests. It seems like our leaders. Sort of had this apologetic, making themselves out to be the victim kind of attitude I way way. I have to stop you apologetic, so let's let's be careful with the words we use. Because it's performance formative apologies. Apologies are not really apologetic, right? I JUST WANNA. Be careful when people hear that word that they don't actually think that there's sincerity behind it I think it's more and act of deflection and you know we we've now hopefully. Everybody in this country has for the past several years become a familiar with the term gas lighting, which is an abuser tactic. Right like making you believe that what you see and experience. Through your senses is not actually what sparked? And so you know being apologetic when it's not sincere, is really being intentionally. I think deceptive. Yes, I would agree. You're right. Women's was like basically sometimes see themselves as the victim and claimed that they are being harmed as well. and. I think for anybody who this part of the goal of this podcast is to build where you're using the phrase again, build a cultural literacy around abuse and abuse of power, so that wherever out abuses manifest, you can make connections and identify and confronted. Prevent it and hopefully he'll from it and other spaces as well so as a survivor of domestic violence and course of control, still ongoing survivor I see. Those behaviors. As that both sides. Tactic, as something that shows up in family, court a lot right or it shows up in the criminal justice system like with rape like well. He said she said we don't know what happened or survivors and family court. He said she said we don't know. She's really domestic violence victim. We don't know she's making the accusations around the children being abused as well well. You can know if you apply a power. A gendered Power Lens you can see who has power power they using the power. How is the power? Being asserted to either limit or expand or give access to the other party to? And you can't have agency in sharing your story for example as a rape victim survivor. If you're afraid of losing your job if you're afraid that your community is going to ostracize you if you're afraid that you're going to be kicked out of your dorm, and so those kinds of power analysis can actually help with the both side is because for example when you were talking about you know by both sides. With extremist and saying that they're being victimized. If they are in positions of power. They aren't being victimized. They have privilege and what they're doing is actually protecting their privilege, and so that is not a both sides situation if we actually take a deeper analysis. Well, I would say that you and I see that and I think most most listeners would see that. Yes, he's Nazis. Basically are the ones in power because they their privileged way, I believe. Maybe the average person out there looks at is well. Here's a group. There's the other side. What about the the reason that they're behaving. This way is because they're being targeted by the again. The use the word Antifa as this this like boogeyman. That's hurting them and they have to defend themselves. They are making themselves out to be the victim thus changing the power dynamic. That's the threat. That's the that's what we empower. We ourselves we're. We're not, so I think that's the narrative that they try to build so when you say they are making themselves be the victim casting themselves as the victim and changing the power dynamic, the power dynamic doesn't change just because you change the narrative if you have the right lens for analyzing power dynamic only changes if you accept as truth what. What the people who are pushing that narrative say so. This is why we need independent critical thinking as a skill that we develop in this country and all over the world, because people who are trying to manipulate you into believing their side of the story or course you, it's easy to see through once. You've had like as a survivor i. feel like I have a strong radar for detecting bullshit a BS. Radar and I have a strong radar bre identifying when someone is abusing power because I feel power so acutely, and in many situations I feel the power dynamics, if I'm not in a position of power I met a lesser position I recognize it and I feel it and when someone is. Trying to take advantage of that disparity I see it and feel it right away. Even to the extent that it affects my body, it's it's a this rural reaction to abuse of power. And I do see that I just think that sometimes other people. Like I would say a lot of other people on the records I do speak on people as possible in ill that a lot of misinformation makes them feel the way you do. For the wrong reasons, because they're not really putting a critic land, but like they should I bring up the example, because for example I have a friend who saw the the case with very sharp brooks where they felt that, and I feel incorrectly that recharged brooks was a powerful man that was threatening the life of these two officers, and the two officers lives were in danger, and they had to according to this person. They behave professionally by shooting this powerful black fat. For the audience, the listeners restart books. If you don't know, is a black man who was shot at Wendy's. So, what is the race or ethnicity of this person who has these beliefs as our mutual friend Michelle always asked. What color is this person? italian-american white identifies as white as C. which by the way Italians very strong affinity with. Police, in terms of your members, I'm guessing have police, officers, family, members, police, officers, family members, and of course so there's already a very bias lens because they're. Of the group, not because they're police officers, but because they're of the group who has the power who's abusing power, and who is benefiting from a system of qualified immunity who gives them impunity to abuse the power without any accountability, and so when you're speaking from a lens of listening and being a family member or the the network of Friends of someone who gets away with whatever. Whatever they want and has basically done so that I think is not a by a is not an impartial person. It's kind of like you know I. Don't know an was it an Arizona or one of the southwestern states? The police officers resigned in protest when the state or the municipality got rid of qualified immunity, and so the idea was if I can't get away with. Police brutality then I. Don't have my job anymore. There's no other job in the world that has that level of power like every job in the world in theory. If you have done something wrong against the law, you've broken a code of conduct. You're going to be held accountable. You'RE GONNA be fired this going to be some sort of corrective action. The board may vote you out. You're on a publicly traded company. There's some kind of consequence and if there's never any consequence, and they are resigning of protest resigning, because they wanna be able to continue to abuse power. Right, but to them I feel like that is the norm and anything that happens against the norm as a threat to their power. I feel that they they do think that the victim feel threatened. Let's move this conversation onto the next episode, which is hundred are survivor stories series with Nicole Lee a survivor in Australia. who had disabilities and since we're talking about? The topic of police officers. It was actually a police officer that she dealt with in Australia. WHO said to her? No, he's not GonNa Change. You need to leave. The safest place for you is not with him and what they did in Australia, which they're actually Dave done tests in New Zealand as well for which I think should be the case everywhere in the world is when someone is being abused. They take the abuser out of the home. And so that's what happened to her. They took the abuser out of the home and put him in jail, and she was able to access to her surprise. Lots of services that Australia had for survivors with disabilities. Right so I feel like in the United, states? Women's lives are even more endangered than they are in other places, so in Australia this is something that was really good and I I i. hope that more and more countries than hopefully it doesn't seem like that's get anywhere near here in the United States to get to the point to get to the point that Australia is when it comes to protecting domestic violence survivors. If I didn't talk, tell you that this happened to Nicole. What would be your in your mind if you thought about a couple? In a situation where one person was being abused at home, how would you regardless of what your framework for understanding the criminal justice? How would you think is the best way to respond to that kind of situation that crisis? If there is abuse in the house like do feel that we should be able to empower the victim to give the resources in order to for the safety of herself end the children or the victim whether they be male or female. So. Let me ask you. This does empowerment in your view entail taking the victim away and putting that person and her children potentially in shelter in homeless shelters, or does it mean something else? As you lived in a home that was owned by her, because her parents gifted her the home, but something happened along the way either way like I feel that it was much better for the perpetrator to be taken away because again. She didn't do anything to deserve to be taken away from her home in her children, right? This is what she's used to. And this is something that you know giving her. A resources financial assistance to to help her with with taking care of her children. I feel was that best was the best. Are you saying that if the house was under the husband's name that he he should stay? No, no, no! I was just to get clarity around the why you brought up the point of who who owned the home. In this in this particular case I feel like she was established. She didn't do anything wrong. In fact, she was the victim so in order to empower her. Be Best for her to continue living and being protected. As as that's not the model all across this country, no wins taking the men. Alleged abuser out of the home in theory and putting them in jail, if necessary putting the women in shelters, women and children in shelters, and taking them out of the home and disrupting their lives. And that's why this case was so unique. I think because this concept that we remove women and disrupt the victims. It has been so normalized like another form of trauma that we can't even envision the concept that she should stay, and the abuser should be going to jail I mean even she. Thought that. This was another trump. I think one of the things that happened as soon as. He was taken away was that she was worried and she was asking for them to bring him back because she felt that she couldn't survive without financially and not just financially, but he took care of her in many ways, and and she was just so used to using him as as as a survival survival for her survival in safety of her children that she couldn't imagine anything else. Else, and she was just not informed that the resources that were available to her I'm I'm glad that it happened. She was able to be offered those resources and that information so this isn't the norm. The norm of taking the abuser away from the home. That's not the norm in the US. They've done studies as to whether or not. It's better to remove domestic violence perpetrators and the victims. And one study came out from Massey University, which is I believe in New Zealand? it was a five year study. The result is that it is better to remove domestic violence perpetrators victims, which to me is laughable that we need to have a study to test that out which is something and again because I don't know a lot of the things I don't understand why those cases the perpetrator is. Arrested I say this because. I don't know why when it comes accountability. Why is it that a lot of users aren't held to stand where they have to go to jail? They have to get legal consequences so for example recently I'm involved in like. A video game community right this particular community. It's a competitive video game where if there is a mixture of adults and children and this kind of mixture. Leads itself to a lot of abuse a lot of child abuse. Recently it came out that a lot of these top players that a lot of people admire have been accused of inappropriate conduct with children and many cases of rape, but it seems like way. How are they raping them? If everybody's virtual? Woman recently at the this has come out now. Recently the accusations, but the community usually is where people go to tournaments purse right Oh. So there's an actual. It's Kinda like COMECON, so people are assembling in person and during the time, but if they're minors there aren't they with their parents. How are they getting access to these children? And that's the problem because this is a this is sort of a community where both adult video game right so children play the game and adult happened to be there and these children. Many of the Times are not supervised. There's no rule that says you must come accompanied with an adult. This is something that creates this culture of abuse like there's a lot of people and even top players right. They not only do they even if they don't do it themselves, they know about these things going on. And also there's like they bring alcohol into the situation right and sometimes these tournaments are so big, and they're multiple days that they go into hotel rooms, and so we go together in a group, and they pay for hotel rooms, and they stay with each other, and so a lot of this abuse happens both in the tournament, and in these social events at the hotel room. So I WANNA wait, so I wanna ask you something. Something from your knowledge. Are these top players playing as a tactic, so they have access to children in order to engage in predation, or do they? Is that like a secondary benefit? But their first joy is video gaming, or is it a cover? He's top players are very good at the video game a video game, so they must practice a lot I think they also happen to be predators, and it's also the culture right. There are a lot of adults in this community that just fade may not be playing the video game very well or anything. A their main goal is probably have used children and use this breeding as breeding ground set. And women, too, not just because when it comes to video games, most in this particular game seems like most of the population are men so old female wants to get into this They're going to have to deal with a lot of us in a lot of not not just sexual assault, but also disparaging comments and everything. That's sort of culture. These people so I think that while they are men that use this use. Use this as an opportunity for them to abuse I do. Do think that a lot of the top players who have been accused at and there have been a lot of top players that have been accused. I don't know if that's their primary. Go again. I find it very difficult for somebody to be very good at a video game, and not have that be the primary of reasons for doing this. There are a lot of people on shore that go to these places specifically to abuse I. do think that that's. Do you feel comfortable sharing? Sharing what game this is, or what conference tournament sure is it? Is it in the news, so we can look it up, so this is not very niche Emmett. This is kind of this big on twitter right now on for Super Smash Brothers Super. Smash Brothers Community the point that I was trying to make was that a lot of these players seem to be just disappearing, and there is no legal action against them. They just disappear. They're out of the community, but I think the. The the the culture is still there. I thought you said they're not disappearing, because you're being arrested and put Jae. They're not as appealing because they're being arrested and taken to jail. They're just disappearing because well. They're getting a lot of this negative attention. Obviously, so they just disappear. They just disappear, but as as a hearing, what a lot of people who are speaking out who are part of the community because article part of the community who do speak out who have lists these people? And stated like this is what's going on right now a lot of them. Okay. Yeah, so a lot of them. Stay telling us what's going on because this isn't the first time that this has happened, there have been people in the past that have been caught a doing horrible things, but they do not receive legal consequences. So that's what my question is like. How come in college over here this situation? Why is it that legal action isn't taken against these abusers? Well I can answer to some extent, but not fully I. Don't know enough about it, but I think that in general like the percentage of rape as well as domestic violence convictions is so low. It's like less than three percent and. And part of it is because we were talking earlier about this like both side Ism this. He said she said like to me. It's not a. he said she said. If you give me someone to interview, I can have a good sense and feel confident if I know that they're, they've been traumatized. And Abuse of power has been enacted upon them and and and so there's a lot of cases like with rape. There's maybe lack of evidence. There's a whole crisis in our country where kids are not being tested. There's a backlog. Heart is prosecute prosecute to`real misconduct where they're just reluctant. They have run out. Out of money, they don't feel like they should run the rape kit if there's not enough strong evidence, if the rape victim doesn't want to testify, because she feels afraid or coerced out of it, maybe threats or other kinds of threats on her life or livelihood, maybe her community, her family is being threatened as well and so there's a lot of risk in coming out and asking for accountability through the system as a rape victim and similarly for domestic violence. The problem with domestic violence is that people don't define domestic violence holistically why we're working. The gender collective is working on trying to criminalize course of control. Control and shift the language around how we view domestic violence to really mobilize against dominant narratives of domestic violence, which is cast as mainly physical as not a gender liberty crime as not this whole set of behaviors that keeps someone from doing for themselves like what Nicole said in her story with her abuser, where she was physically unable to care for herself, but also psychologically put into a position, tapped the her abuser tapped into her self worth to make her not believe that she could care for herself and her children. I also think that one of the things that adds to that is how her husband was. He took on the role of the caregiver, and by, and he also was a cancer survivor, so he was a cancer survivor into the everyone else. He seemed like a hero. He seemed like like someone that is trustworthy, and so I guess that probably would would beat into people, maybe not believing her as much. But, the details don't even matter like in that case. He's a cancer survivor and he was physically know more the caretaker for her than she for him and yet and other scenarios in heterosexual couples, the male is more likely potentially the higher wage earner, more likely to be someone of a greater socio economic status, and so those kinds of built in bias sees are already there, and it's just whether or not we choose to let it give it any weight when we're analyzing the situation in terms of accountability and people thankfully in Nicole's. Network of. Supporters. Didn't give it any way. The police officer was the one who took the you know her abuser Outta the home and said that he's not going to change and she I one thing that I really really really really liked about what Nicole said. Which I think is so important for us to hear, is that the police officer did not take her decision away from her. He took the decision from her husband to. To abuse her and too many people who are working in this space want to give a nod to the survivors agency and free will, and give her a chance to make a choice, and if she wants to stay or not, and when you're in that situation as she said she did everything to please him, you don't have a choice you. There's no agency when there's oppression or threat of violence and so. So we need to be able to act on behalf of survivors and have policy that actually center accountability, which leads US perfectly into the next episode one on one with zero off Saul because he is someone who's been a prosecutor for over twenty years in England, and Britain and I was so pleased to be able to talk to someone working in the space. Who really got it because he's actually seized and And is doing something about sexism and Misogyny, and using that as potentially right now at the domestic violence built domestic abuse bill in Britain is being reconceptualise. There's an update to the bill that's being proposed and one of the updates. Is that sexism misogyny should be characterized as a hate crime absolutely, and so you know when the when the said that the common denominator between gangs and right wing extremists Islamist extremists. Mass shooters, and all these other individuals who engage in long term, systemic violence and domestic violence is that they have a hatred of women, and if you, if you nip it in the bud, then they won't go out and commit these other crimes, so that was something that I thought was refreshing to hear from him and I want to hear from you. was that something new to you when you heard that? What did you think? And how did you respond? Similarly conversation that you had with Ulsan, it seems like it makes more sense for us to address the issue before it happens. Right afterward right so when you're taking the look at the core issue which is. That's what we should be addressing, and that's how we've been hopefully. Adjust the problem better, so yeah, was that new that was something that I wouldn't have been able to even understand without without this podcast. I think this is something that opened my eyes. Also wanted to say when it comes to Nazir. The two of you spoke about how that sex investigation that he was Arta, and how easy it was interest appropriately before he joined in, and I think he understands the power dynamics right. He understands that the victims that didn't have power. Inc., floor EMBIID for Hindi investigation of the investigators blamed a lot of the victims. They blamed the socioeconomic status of the victims, and how they were is probably why they were in this kind of situation and I think he was able to open up this investigation with that kind of Lens Understanding that there is a imbalance well. I think that what was very. Very. Important is that people were reluctant to bring forward charges against the the gangs because they were South Asian and Muslim, and they didn't want to be accused of targeting South Asians and Muslims while the victims. Sometimes we're white, but other other different colors of victims existed, and so because Nazir is South Asian of south Asian descent and Muslim. He gave permission. To overlook some of the political aspects of bringing forth. A case okay, that makes sense so diversity in this case again helps with rain justice. It's also a problem because if it's kind of like what's happening in domestic violence in new. York and zero talked about this too that you can't have restorative justice for domestic violence cases as an alternative to incarceration I. Don't mean restorative justice as a practice just for victims for healing and positive transformation, but restorative justice is being offered as an alternative to incarceration, which in itself is coercive when there has been no accountability. Accountability and they're trying to use restorative justice as a way to generate accountability by giving abusers, the opportunity to quote unquote engage in retribution, but if they've never been held accountable to to deter them from engaging in those behaviors than anything they say about being sorry may not be sincere, and is likely not sincere, and so I bring that up because when it when it came to you know them, the gang case in Britain, not moving forward because they didn't want to be accused of being racist and Islamophobic. That is similar to what's happening in New York. Where prosecutors are saying, they're too many black and brown men in jail. Because of mass incarceration, which is true, there are for non violent crimes. That's you know. The history of our mass incarceration has to do with the. Crime bills from the eighty s and ninety S, and that's a problem, but on the other hand. That's just a symptom of the problem if we address the problem at its. Core 'cause, which is having policies that make all abusers accountable, not just black and brown abusers, then all colors of abusers. We'll be deterred, and so they're reluctant to actually put more black and brown men in prison because they don't WanNa, be exacerbating the racism problem in criminal justice, but by doing so they're harming survivors. No, yeah, absolutely and I think that there is a reason why there are. There's so much pop population is higher. I think there's something like over forty percents of the prison. Population is static or possibly more, so it seems that. I mean yeah. Those issues have to be addressed. There is there the fact that policing is much higher in low income places and that we are segregated so much especially in places like New York, right? There's so many issues that needs to be addressed when it comes to both policing and incarceration I think this is a With his ear. This is somewhere. That's not from here, and it's interesting to get the perspective from Britain and location that is I see in my opinion like as foreign to me and understand that it seems like racism also is an issue over there as well. But I am curious to find out like what the Carson rate is in in Bryn. I'm pretty sure that since the United States has the highest amount of Krizner's I wonder how that is Delton. The brand and I think that's something we should definitely look into and including her show notes but I. do think that even though there's a lot of similarity in terms of the problems and challenges that we face obviously, racism exists in both countries, and but at least Britain has written England Scotland Wales Ireland. They've all criminalized course of control, so they are the model in at least theoretically understanding that abuse needs to be. Be looked at holistically. There needs to be a set of behaviors that hopes to identify who is the perpetrator who's the victim and whether or not it's being implemented effectively, and if the sentencing is proportionate to what crimes are in order to really create long-term deterrence that remains to be seen, but clearly there's a updated domestic abuse bill that's being proposed as China strengthen that and make it more effective. But, but they certainly are further ahead. If New Year's any example, because there's an understanding of the cultural factors that play into abuse, and I think that without that cultural understanding of sexism and Misogyny is role until we acknowledge it, we're not gonna be able to actually do anything about it and policy. which brings us to the next episode? One or two with JEN camel, who talks about the gender impact of Covid on pregnancy, reproductive rights, and you may recall our conversation with Indra Lucero of the national advocates for pregnant women. And and all of the cases across the country where your pregnancy or pregnancy outcome can be used against you, and you could be arrested and placed in jail because you had a miscarriage and your because a fetus has person hood in your state you could, you could be blamed for it and so these gendered. have been even more exacerbated according to Gen. under covid, according to Jen because every hospital, an every state is making its own rules around how to deal with pregnancy and we weren't. Rights what struck me was how old coveted gave this in helps us look at a situation that was already an issue before the pandemic happen. So what a lot of people now we're looking into is having. Having midwives helped deliver the child right. That was something that for example. My sister looked into before sheep it birth at birthing center, but again there's a lot of misinformation like John mentioned in a lot of a lot of policy that needs to be addressed again. Looking at having midwife for example is something. That's relatively safe. Even years ago, it was something that was the norm having a midwife who? Who was sort of faced out and there's this whole belief that now if you're not at a hospital, you're not going to have a safe pregnancy, right or not going to be able to deliver safely so now that Kobe happened and going to hostile would potentially expose more to the to the virus that we can. Now we think that so. That's one of the things that I found striking. And I think that for me, talking about midwives and the V back of vaginal birth, Syrian, which is jen specialty, there's so much that I learned about the backs. And just how corporate sized the business of pregnancy and delivery is mine, but also in connection with our conversation with Indra and also the conversation. We had an in reviewing book. You're doing it wrong. Which is the history of motherhood in our country? These interviews episodes really I, think give a broad stroke framework for understanding how women's bodies the way we have constructed meaning and value to women's bodies who? Has a right to control them whether it's the state or the woman or anybody else has really been something that's harmful to women, and and now it seems like it's insurance companies hospitals that own our bodies and get to decide, because even the concept of midwives. You have to have a supply I. Then even if when you do have a supply, you have to be able to pay for it and if it's not covered under insurance and someone doesn't have the means than is not going to be an option, it's going to be precluded, and then you're going to go with whatever your insurance company. If you have any offers you, which is probably going to be something that's going to minimize liability and put you in your health secondary to their cost and convenience. Absolutely and seems like a lot of the the weight and the pressure of doing the research is now on the person giving birth in one of the things that Jen mentioned was how the time that you're pregnant is not really a lot of time or energy at. You should be playing into something like this. It's something that should be thought of the foreign planned out, so it's. It's probably a stressful time to be thinking about this, but it's. It's so important at the same time. Let's talk about our final episode. Which one oh eight I was participating in a panel discussion with the continuum, collective co produced episode, and the topic was feminism in the age of covert in our particular topic was. How does feminism impact domestic violence and domestic violence survivors for me? I I think that the approach that I have is co Vid like you said repeatedly throughout our conversation today hopefully exposes the existing disparities and harms that women suffer. In health care and economic sense of in terms of housing in terms of safety in their relationships access to services access to paths towards freedom and security, and and so what I would like. It to do in terms of interacting feminism. Is Ignite more women and men male allies of feminism to actually take action so that they can see how all of these harms that impact women, actually also impact men impact all of us I would basically want this experience to bring us all together and become either a feminist or pro feminist allies and engaged in this conversation. That's Michael Yeah. Sure that I do want to do that as well I want to. Make sure that the conversation just doesn't end here that I talk about it with people that I know. One of the things that I like to do is. Share this information with friends of mine, although it's not something that is always easy. I have a friend for example was telling me about an issue that he was having with his partner, and during the conversation I realized that he was using an abuser tactic. In in this particular case, it was gas lighting and I brought it up to him in a way. That I felt was gentle, but I did want to let. Let him know that it was something that you shouldn't be doing right. At the end of the conversation. He didn't WANNA speak more about it. And it seemed he seemed threatened by it but I I. Do feel that regardless I feel that we should still continue to talk more openly I know that that's something else. Benazir mentioned right about when it comes to when you seeing some It's something that you feel. With and you have the knowledge to to call it out, you should, and you shouldn't just stand there passively and I hope that eventually by opening up these conversations were able to the knowledge and hopefully reduce it a little bit at least I, think that It's something that's happening all over the world. It's pretty bad in in the United States, but as we saw in this episode, Fariba did talk about it. It at how it happens in Turkey and how people in Turkey themselves are forming groups in order to address these issues. I'm curious when you had your conversation with your friend first of all in terms of the power analysis, I'm guessing, but if you could confirm, there's definitely a power differential, and he has in some ways more power than I'm guessing his partner. That's why you're using it as an abuser tactic because. I identify that there has to be a power imbalance. Okay, and how did he respond when you identified this behavior at? Did you use terms to show the harm and the impact? I did use the word gas lighting because I felt that he also understands what that where it is and when I explained that that's. A negative thing he did change the subject and he didn't close that he didn't want to. You don't want to shutdown shutdown right so when I. When I brought it up again, he goes out of La and again it's it's more I. do think that he is thought about it, and I also brought it up afterward overtaxed like hey, how's the situation going? And he said something along the lines of like Oh. You're funny man, and then he just didn't even want to. Well Michael May I suggest for next time, because when people are confronted with their own abuse of power. There's going to be kind of like white privilege. There's there's guilt and shame potentially attached to it, and so it might be. Helpful to try next time to see if you can talk about the harm and the impact, so ask him for example. If he's going to open up to you again, you know. How did your partner feel? What was her reaction? If she cried if she looked confused, puzzled didn't speak if she silenced herself. Those kinds of Can indicate that she was not comfortable, and so you can ask Kim. What was your intent? And how did this intent aligned with the result that you got? Do you think that she understood you? Do you think that I'm guessing? The partner is female? And so what what's? Sort of conversation I think that helps to get him to think about the dynamics of the power rather than calling it out directly. Because I think calling it out directly is really hard for someone to receive who doesn't have a lens already for understanding like you. If you were to be in a relationship, you came to me and you said certain things I would say hey, that doesn't sound right. That seems kind manipulative and I and I would feel comfortable that you would be able to receive that openly and urban design understand language than I understand where and I know that wouldn't be threatened because I know who you are, but I wouldn't use potentially that language with someone who's not familiar, who hasn't actually examined and engaged in an ongoing process of self enquiry about what their power is, and how they're using it or how they're misusing it so basically do the socratic method in kind of ask questions to help them identify where he possibly went wrong in how he affected his partner in a negative way. I would not use the word wrong in describing it because you want you want the person to be open to characterize it with their own words, okay, and to not impose your imprint on your friend. Because that's the whole point. He's the one who observed. He had a certain attention or whatever he was trying to say I want her to go to this trip with me or I want her to go every week to my mom's home to have dinner or Sunday nights. She doesn't want to because Blah Blah. Blah Blah Blah so what was his intent? And even the intent like even let's say Sunday dinner. Maybe the mob doesn't have a great relationship with his partner. And maybe the MOM insults the partner, so the partner doesn't WanNa go, but then his intent is to see the mom and also to create a bridge for the to get together. If that's the case, then he might want. Want to solicit her opinion as to how they might want to get together, and then he could spend time with his own on his mom. That's separate from that. Give the partner the choice of how she wants to build. If at all that relationship okay I, that makes sense the situation, a little bit different, and I can't make sense okay. Great well I think it's great that you were able to have this conversation with him and I. This is the beginning. This is planting. The seed. Being in conversation is the first step to creating more awareness within ourselves in another. So thank you for doing that and thank you for being part of this conversation, my pleasure. I'm learning a lot. Thanks for listening to this episode engendered. The show is sponsored by Candu Cuny, appear based Knowledge Platform that connects social service, providers and advice, community and learning. You can join Candu Acuna for free at Q. and A. Dot K., A. N. D. T. dot com. I'd love to get your feedback here any or suggestions. You may have for the show. Please email us at engendered podcast a g mail. Dot Com with your questions.

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Episode 96:  Laura Ramirez of Af3irm on decolonizing "sex work"

en(gender)ed

57:37 min | 7 months ago

Episode 96: Laura Ramirez of Af3irm on decolonizing "sex work"

"Either podcast listeners. Welcome to engendered. The show that features stories that explore the systems practices and policies that enable gender based violence and oppression and the solutions to end it. We used gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonize hearts and minds one story at a time and gender sponsored by Candu. It spelled K. A. N. D. U. I T. and I'm your host Terry. Un on this episode of the engendered. Podcast our guest is Laura Ramirez the program coordinator at Coalition Against Trafficking in women the First International Non Governmental Organization working to oppose human trafficking prostitution and other forms of commercial sexual exploitation. She's also an organizer with the firm. A National Organization of women engaged in transnational feminist anti imperialist activism and dedicated to the fight against oppression. In all its forms Laura speaks to us today about the ways in which healthcare policy in particular covert nineteen or the corona virus acutely impacts women human sex trafficking prostitution and pornography. We will explore the ways in which the global demand for prostitution puts women and girls particularly high risk of harm and exacerbates systemic gender disparities. In Income Wealth Mobility and health outcomes. Welcome Laura Hey Terry how are you? I'm okay this is I think we're in what week. Three of the lockdown in New York City. Yes it time is. It doesn't exist anymore so I don't really know but I think that sounds about right thankfully you and I met. Before the lockdown yes thankfully and now we have things to do to keep us busy because you're painting sanity as is a struggle. That's for sure so you work for the Coalition Against Trafficking in women C. A. T. W. And you also are a member of a firm is how you pronounce it. He acts affirm new. I'm part of OUR NEW YORK. Chapter the coalition against have gained women. It's the first international non governmental organization to Actually Combat Prostitution Commercial Sexual Exploitation. And how that looks like for women all over the world and the firm is a feminist organization. We focus on a lot of different issues especially since the experience of women. Worldwide aren't confined to one thing right. Women's oppression manifest differently in different places through different types of oppression whether it's economic systems militarism but one of our issues via our purple rose campaign is the sex trade and it has a lot to do with the experiences of migrant women and the history of women in in the US as a result of US coney was them in US imperialism. So it's just an example of how everything is a feminist issue though it's not just the sex trade is it affirms only issue but it is one of our largest issues for sure in particular within the sex trade sex trafficking in human trafficking. Can you talk about what the differences I think? A good definition or human trafficking is the definition that's outlined under the Palumbo Protocol which is a UN resolution specifically on human trafficking And when it comes to sex trafficking specifically what is important to know in the Palermo protocol definition is that trafficking does not necessarily need to involve movement right so a lot of people watch. I don't watch taken or something. And they think that the way that sex trafficking looks is getting abducted off the street and being thrown into a van. And then you're chained to a radiator But that's not what it looks like especially here in the United States when it comes to domestic trafficking a lot of the Times women are a woman because over ninety percent of women that are involved in human trafficking are involved for the purposes of sexual exploitation but There are other folks in the trade as well. Obviously it's an. It's an industry that preys on vulnerability but a lot of the people inside of the sex trade. Have the liberty to like you know. Go shopping or something. But it's about the economic mental emotional and ends overall control that traffickers pimps have on the individual right. So it's not this chains who irradiators situation. And that's really what we need to demystify. When it comes to trafficking altogether I was at an event. I think it was sometime last summer. And there were people of different genders talking about how they were victims of sex trafficking and both of them actually The two survivors in the group specifically talked about how they were victims within a relationship. So they're pimp. Was there a partner who coerce them to To prostitute at them? So so is. Is that what you mean? By how you don't need movement to be a victim of sex trafficking. Yes so what I mean specifically by. You don't need movement is you don't need to be picked up from point. A. AND MOVED TO POINT B. Right you could be trafficked by the you could be legally traffic in your own home And a lot of people will actually try to argue against this legal definition. It's folks that will probably get into this a little bit later folks who talk about being in the trade willingly but the reason. This definition is important is because it really. It really illustrates how. It's a trade altogether you know. It's not like a person is willingly sex. Traffic's like the examples you just gave when it came to people who were coerced by a significant other. A lot of those have to do with economic control. Ray Or Emotional control you know some sort of like a Stockholm Syndrome situation. You know we work with a survivor here in Queens. Actually who? She was picked out by a loverboy situation. Which is really common at the age of. I think like fourteen because you know she. She was raised by a single mother. She was raised in poverty. She didn't have the economic or emotional support and this pimp came in and filled that void thus creating a dependency relationship. That's you know very easily which is very easily exploited. So yeah it's all too common in. That doesn't necessarily need to involve crossing a border at all and does trafficking also necessarily include some sort of financial transaction so for example if my significant other forced me to have sex with other people under threat of violence or some other threat. But he wasn't getting any money or he wasn't receiving any money with that soapy considered sex trafficking. They're crying of of sex trafficking is the the rape of the individual right so When it when push comes to shove ultimately one cannot consent to their own exploitation nor can they consent to being raped by a stranger right. I think you bring up a really interesting question because it brings up the question of money equaling consent sort of thing so what you described is really interesting because if you take money out of the equation in lot of these circumstances it looks like rape right if you if a person is being forced to be physically penetrated by a stranger that they don't know that they don't want to be involved with everybody would call that rape. So why is it that once we throw twenty dollars on top of it? It's all of a sudden a trade and there's a political conversation attached to it was it autonomy. Wasn't not know if you take those twenty dollars away. It's very clearly a rape situation. And that's what sex trafficking is about. That's what the crime of folks petition is. So I want to get back to what you mentioned earlier. Which is the statistics around global sex trafficking and how sex trafficking victims globally ninety percent of them? Are Women. And Girls so clearly. This is a gendered problem like many others that you and I are dealing with and yet there's a term that neither of us really like name cotton namely quote unquote sex work that is being used to define this problem and so talk about what that term means to you. Yeah so there's two things that you mentioned that I sort of WanNa talk about. The first is how this is a gendered crime rate. This is one hundred percent agenda crime because the sex trade exists as a result of male entitlement male sexual entitlement to female bodies and the other thing is when it comes to the Trans community the sort of individuals who are in the trade. We see our Trans Woman. You know so it is a gendered crime. It's a gendered crime of Male entitlement to women and bodies right so this is very it's such a binary it's very very clear on so that's the first thing I would say because the Trans Community is also unfortunately overrepresented in the sex trade and unfortunately a lot of folks like you who you mentioned who describe themselves as sex workers to Novara segue into that conversation. Use the term sex work which was politically created to sanitize the system of exploitation. And they're using this to sort of give credence to the fact that Trans Women are over represented in the trade but this this can't be the case. You know the fact that Trans Women are over represented in this extra doesn't mean that this extreme is inherent to translations existence. It means that we all obviously have a social problem. Where economic political and social systems are failing people who have vulnerabilities and as a result of this have to end up in the trade so This the term sex trade in itself was created back in the seventies like I said to sanitize the industry to politically position it as a form of work so that people can talk about it through the Labor Rights Lens and that's particularly problematic because it shifts the conversation entirely What's the sex where even mean right when when they talk about sex work? That could be a pimp that could be a trafficker that could be a person who does hamming who never has students harass with expire person. Who does stripping which we know strip clubs are a Popular Avenue? Four funneling women into prostitution. So what does that even need? You know the the term sex work is really muddy and when we talk about the sex trade of course. We're talking about the global multi billion dollar industry that exists to serve male sexual entitlement but prostitution specifically That's what we're talking about. We're not talking about people who sell nukes on Patriots or something like that. Of course those things are related. Because they're serving the same. The same premise. That is male sexual entitlement. But selling your news on the Internet is a whole lot different than having to physically see. Smell touch sex fire. And that's that's what makes the term really dangerous. That's why we have to be really specific in what we're talking about. Refrain from using umbrella terms like sex with because ultimately people die as a result of that gross generalization. What word or phrase would you use in? Its place that we can brainstorm that together. I think the the terms expert is brilliant. It's politically brilliant. You know and we need We like to say prostituted people Because that's the truth Prostitution is something that happens to people. It's not a crime that somebody does. It's a crime that is done to someone prostituted people. We like to say. People Woman of colonized experience you know the sex trade has a history and legislative colonialism and slavery. So let's call it what it is. Those words are uglier than sex for her. But it's the truth. No that commercial sexual exploitation is used but it's at that sounds a little sanitized as well for me. Personally I would like to take the word sex out of it and use some freeze that includes the word slavery for slavery or coerced slavery. Something like that. I mean I agree with you. So we always say sets. Work is neither sex workers neither sex nor work because if it feels like work than it's probably not sex and if it's it's not work right so that makes a lot of sense. I personally have been work. Shopping is fiscally coerced penetration. That sounds really ugly. But it's also very long and doesn't On a tote bag as nicely as does so. I don't know how far we're going to get with that but it right. And then it doesn't cover all of the activities penetration that could coerce. Yeah and fall under that umbrella. Yeah we can workshop that together okay. So so let's talk about the the bill that was proposed in New York City last year to decriminalise prostitution and there are those who were for the bill and there are those who opposed it and the opposition favored something called the Nordic or the equality model. What is that and how does it differ from full decriminalization? So there's three kinds of legal approaches to this. Although most people only think that there are two which is decriminalization and legalization. So we oppose both those. Why do we oppose legalization? Because obviously we should never legalize the sex industry for all of the reasons that we already said. Why do we oppose the decriminalization of this ex- industry because when we decriminalize it it's it makes it a free Pearl Right? There's no legal consequence or repercussions for the actor. The bad actors of the sex trade proponents of decriminalization. Say that they prefer this model. Because it decriminalizes the folks who are engaging in the trade so folks who identify as sex workers and we agree with that notion right folks who are in the trade should not be arrested you know prostituted. People should not be arrested. Like I just said prostitution is a crime that happens to somebody as opposed to a person committing a crime. So where do we go with that so being that we agree both agree with that premise? That individuals in the trade should not be arrested. The difference between US and full decriminalization folks is that we prefer approach called the equality model so the equality model maintains that prostituted people are not arrested. But it also maintains the legal consequences for Pinson traffickers and this is important because it is an approach that seeks to reduce the market right by attacking the demand and it also provides exit strategies for people who are in the trade which time and time again we've seen when it comes to direct service providers or folks who are on the ground when they ask people. Would you be doing something else if you could? The answer is profound yes. Almost one hundred percent of the time people respond with yes because people are in the trade the majority of people who are in the trader in the trade as a result of mead as a result of precarity the Nordic model offers exit strategies health services educational services paths towards legal citizenship. So that they don't have to fear they don't have to fear being criminalised for the position that they are put in however we can't pursue a feminist future without holding. The people who do harm responsible and the people who wrong do do harm are expires. One hundred percent of the time you know. So it's not. You know a lot of people who who support the full decriminalization model say that the laws are killing people. But that's not true. The law doesn't kill people. Sex Fires Kill people. You know every time we mourn another person in the sex trade who was killed it was by affects fire every single time objectively. And that's because we can't be sure of what a fire will do once the doors closed and that's why we should never fully decriminalize because that's actually enabling harm. You know it's not harm. It's not harm reduction. The equality model is harm prevention. I was thinking when you were talking about the gendered aspects of trafficking sex trafficking and how Trans Women More More Trans Women Than Trans men are being victimized in being prostituted because they present as fem and that sounds to me. I hadn't actually thought about the demographics in terms of trans men and Trans Women. But it sounds to me that it's related to the fact that Trans men can present as men right and and so they can do things potentially in this world have access to opportunities that someone who presents as them. Whether you're a woman assist gendered woman or Trans Woman. Way May not have access to because of systemic discrimination of course and ultimately what it comes down to with regards to Trans Women in the sex trade is male entitlement. You know Men are entitled or under Patriarchy. They feel that they are entitled to Women's bodies so that that's the overwhelming trend that we see in the sex trade and it's it's really unfortunate you know because a lot of trans women who are in the trade. Say that they're in the trade you know because they don't have a housing or because they need access to health care. These are all systemic stomach problems that we shouldn't say then to Trans Women. The right of passage for you to live your wisdom bestself is to be raped by a stranger. You know we as organizers than people who want to see a feminist future which means one where women do not have to be chained and victimized by the various manifestations of Patriarchy for us to say that we are found as organizers and then also say you need to get over this hump of male violence to then be your best self. It doesn't make any sense it. It's it's not a feminist approach to condone the sex trade at all. It's it's vehemently anti-feminist feminist and I like to see. Those are pro men feminists because they're not pro woman. As per woman feminist. You would insist on Women's liberation without exception and definitely not the exception of this extra so I'm GonNa make suggestions. We're brainstorming. Have what we call them? Promo Zeke Communists and the other side pro humanity feminists I think pro with eight again pro men fake feminist and then pro humanity feminist shows of us were trying to liberate. Women are trying to liberate. All of us Arche we should write all this stuff down and since we're talking about people who are there's a huge movement as you know from your work of people who call themselves progressive whether it's people who are organizers community organizations even elected officials right some of whom sponsoring this bill for New York City. How do they reconcile in their head? What is their rationale for supporting something? Once they've heard your argument I can't imagine how they're still justification meaning there. I don't know I think I think we should ask them what their rationale is. Because once you hear the stories of survivors once you employ a global approach to the issue it so obvious you know. It's so obvious that Western individualism. Which would actually give validation to the concept of self empowerment over collective harm of women as a socio. Political class is behind a lot of the justifications. For their argument you know again. It goes back to The harm that was done in the seventies with coining the term sex work which a lot of people grew up on right here in that term and now can only visualize it through a Labor perspective. That that's really really hard. You know over in Spain. I think last year they were sent to a so-called sex union tried to be established like can you imagine a union where Strip club owners and pimps are in your union. Union is the boss in. That doesn't make any sense. You know and I I mean I also have that question Terry seriously do. I don't know how they can rationalize it. I think a lot of it is reactionary politics as opposed to employing a global lens. Also a macro lens to the issue. Because it's easier to do that. It's easier to be a reactionary. It's easier to half band-aid solutions. That mass harm reduction instead of doing a bigger analysis of the issues and that also requires a lot of self reflection too because the thing about Patriarchy and misogyny is that the systems that are so insidious that they infect our line of thinking to same goes for capitalism. You know all of these systems have infected us and that's how we been think it's exemplified in the term sex work in itself that we could even accept you know an economic exchange for rape as a valid labor movement. Mlive hard you know. It's really hard and I don't know if you knew this but a lot of people would rather take the easy way out when it comes to these things so I really don't know the answer that I know why it happens. I don't I still don't know how we can you. It it it's the most regressive progressivism there is so what about. Let's look at the actual people who are being prostituted they experience. They're saying that if you don't allow me to do my job. If you impact the demand for my job I will be at risk of homelessness and negative. Health outcomes and this is my only way of survival. How do you respond to that? There's a couple of things that you touched upon. Because you know it's that's how it is with the issue prostitution. It's a multifaceted issue. And the first thing you mentioned was was health right. That's interesting because the health effects of prostitution are so widely recorded short and long-term but for some reason we haven't recognized it as a global health crisis right. The immediate health consequences of the sex trade versus long term consequences include a body depression. Ptsd A lot of women who are in the sex trade actually have PTSD that mirror. That of combat veterans woman who are infertile as a result of the physical. Harm that the sex acts day after day after day have done to them. You know when we read this laundry list of side effects. It's so clear that position itself is a is a health crisis so I can't imagine somebody trying to defend prostitution through Healthcare Lens in terms of homelessness that is an issue that disproportionately affects women and children right especially when we see high rates of single mothers who are forced into the trade. That's a massive problem and that is why Through the equality model we would have exit strategies in pathways towards getting healthcare getting housing getting education because we are not again and by we. I mean abolitionist. Feminists were against the sex trade so that women can stop getting money this way. And then you're been you're on your own you know. This is what I mean by. We have to look at it as a macro issue. Because that's exactly what it is you know. We don't want women impositions vulnerability right but the sex trade itself is also form of violence and we shouldn't deter vulnerability using violence. It just doesn't make any sense so in terms of homelessness. I do think that we need to organize for for rent. I mean if you ask me personally. I think that housing should be free. Housing is a human right. Those are the things that we should be organizing around Ray. As opposed to organized thing for this extra thing is if we justify one woman in the sex trade so that she can pay her rent then we justify every woman being in the sex trade then every single woman has a dollar sign on her and that furthering the problem that we already have. I agree with you. I also think that on the one hand we need to address the systemic sexism and misogyny that shows up in our policy that keeps women from getting parody in terms of wage and building wealth equal to men to the extent that yes we can even if we were to which I hope we can pass the era the equal rights amendment and have some sort of enforcement mechanism. We still also have people saying well under capitalism everybody quote unquote prostitutes themselves to their job. In some way there's some tradeoff that were making the silliest argument there's no difference between US deciding to sell my body versus to sell my mind and worked for. Let's say you know. Whatever the military and create bombs. Yeah how do you respond to that? I mean this this is this is another example of reactionary thinking. I mean it's so first of all I personally this isn't you know. Book position that The organizations I worked for how the I personally am not a big fan of capitalism. Obviously not because it exacerbates. All of these systems of oppression. Nevertheless work even under a social system isn't inherently bad. Work is a good thing. We do need to work to produce a society that we could all live in thrive in but comparing the work of say a janitor who cleans schools so that children. The next generation of minds can learn is so different than the sex trade. Because if we if we even compare those two than we're saying that you know cleaning schools is on the same tier of importance as the male orgasm that's completely unacceptable. And yes there's always going to be exploitation under capitalism because the nature of capitalism capitalism is expletive but the jobs inherently are not expletive. Jobs are necessary but if system based on male orgasms is not necessary. That's not it's it's it's totally as silly argument with all due respect when I hear it because you have to assume that male orgasms are socially necessary. You know it just really doesn't especially considering that to To reach male orgasm a entire sector woman entire crass of women basically the prostituted class Have to be exploited that that really. It almost makes me laugh. When I hear you know we started the conversation Talking about the Cova. Nineteen Corona virus pandemic and. I know you've been really busy responding to the the industry's response to this pandemic. I read just one or two articles about it but the articles were basically in favour of people who worked in the quote unquote sex industry who wanted support and protections. Because they weren't able to work and so can tell me about some of the industry's response to this and and what you're doing as a result of it. Yeah well the interesting thing about the Kovin crisis with regards to the sex trade is that it sort of proves our point ray. A lot of folks on the other side like to say that no matter what we do. There's always going to be a demand for sex by but first of all. We argue that. That's not true. A there are several examples Whether it examples based in decolonisation where there are native tribes who don't even have a word for prostitution in their language because it didn't exist before the colonizer came or more modern examples like in. Sweden say where they passed a education campaign and now men in Sweden are more embarrassed would rather be drunk driving than buying sex because they it still abhorrent. It's the report thought to them to even by person so there are examples of that. Prove that sex buying can be deterred and cova sort of an example of that. You know men aren't going out to buy sex and a lot of people in the industry are suffering as a result of that but it also brings up the question of how does one social distance with within the sex trade. It's impossible there's no way to social distance or to keep a healthy physical barrier between you and a buyer and isn't that the program you know. Is it that an issue? It goes back to all of the health problems that we talked about previously and again. It's really unfortunate that more and more women who entered the train. The trade as a result of economic necessity are now struggling economically right. That is a massive problem. But it's a global problem that we're all facing. It's not just particular to the sex trade if anything it's proving our point about the sex trade you know we should once this is all over and once you know the dust settles we should move towards situations. Where if this ever happens again women regardless of whether they're in the sex trade or not are promised healthcare so that they can be treated if they access that if they come into contact with the virus so that they have rent rent stabilization. So that they don't have to worry about how they're going to pay the next month Things that will actually result in social stability as opposed to a male violence masked from sort of way out I understand with regard to one on one transactions in terms of prostitution but what about pornography because no one can still social distance by being a consumer of pornography and porn. Hub has certainly grown a lot. I think during this crisis In terms of offering free free premium porn and trying to update its image by by donating free mask to healthcare workers across the world. But we know that there's trafficking in the production of pornography and so you can still social distance and consume and. I don't know what the numbers are. From in terms of porn hub whether the demand has even gone up to replace the decrease in in person prostitution. Yeah that's a real issue that we're seeing especially with only fans that know if you've heard of that website right now. It's only fans if they Website that any individual can set up an account on and produce pornography for subscribers and members and all of that Yet absolutely. That's something that we're seeing. That's what happens right. That is extra AIDS response to the Kobe Crisis. But again it all feeds the same thing. It feeds male sexual access to woman. You bought a porn hub in. It's really interesting. Because porn hub. Giving out masks or porn hub like I know. They did a pain Campaign a couple of months ago about saving the planet and something like that. It's really funny when a website. That's based on submitting whatever they want which includes pornography and footage of trafficking takes on the position of like social savior. It's really sad actually Porn has been not only accused but also they've been proved proven to post bile footage of of reported cases of rape of cases of stocking of child pornography of people who were under who were confirmed to be under a traffic control. And that's because Porn. Just you can post whatever you want on that website so in reality this website should be taken down one hundred percent for facilitating crime nevertheless though when it comes to poor and yes there is a massive increase. I know that porn of Italy gave all Italian citizens like a premium membership or something like just goes to show how even in times of crisis woman and their social status. They're they continue to be subordinate. You know that's the only thing it can illustrate like y'all were all stuck inside but at least we can still consume women so that we know what to do. Once we're out it's it's really sad to watch. Actually I also read somewhere. That there's in terms of exploitation there's a Increased either search for desire for videos that include Kovic somehow where there's someone is directly infecting someone or someones I. I'm not sure exactly what it was but I just came across that very quickly and so the fantasy of deducting something. Yeah and also I mean it. Just it makes sense. I mean look at domestic violence situations right right now. Weren a time. Where women who live with their abusers cannot go to work sometimes. Work is a temporary escape for women in DVD. Situations. So that they can be away from their abusers From just from their abuser and now a lot of women and children have to be quarantined with their abusers and as we see throughout history in times of crisis male violence goes up and male violence is not exclusive to just physical violence in the home it also transfers into sexual violence and digital sexual violence and right now you know. We're still sort of in the beginning of this. I know it doesn't seem that way because time doesn't exist anymore and it seems like we've been quarantined for a year but I am afraid that as goes on you will continue to see more aggressive male behaviors and that's something that we really need to look out for and as we continue to crown toward her as the martyrs of Cova. Did we actually have to realize what harm is being done? You know if a woman is walking down the street to go to the supermarket and you know the streets are empty because nobody is outside. We're talking about situations where men who are watching that video that you just described bypassing the Coburn Riskin infecting her with Kobina. Anyway woman are in more precarious situation. Now that could easily become reality. It sounds ridiculous. But we've seen this time and time again. I mean in the Super Bowl right. The large sporting events become a hub for deviant trafficking. Why would a global crisis be any different and speaking of the Super Bowl? I just read the reason for that which I wasn't sure I wanted to confirm and apparently it's because when you have large groups of men together there's a greater likelihood of exploitation and I'm saying that because it's like it's so obvious but it's also so sad. I mean it makes a lot of sense. Doesn't it so one other thing that we need to talk about? When it comes to Cova the sex trade is discussing whether or not buying sex or going to strip clubs his even in the central service because there are reports what in in places like New Zealand. Where sex fires were going into. Strip clubs with masks on but Nurses don't have masks and stuff like that so we need to talk about what positioning that industry hasn't society and if we look at it the right way we'll see that it really shouldn't have much of a place there so before we close. There's one bill that you mentioned or for our conversation that I want to just call out because we had a previous episode in the Body Literacy series where we talked about fertility for women and it's the Child Parent Security Act and this is a New York state back in that episode. I had shared the bill and the opposition to that bill being passed and I wanted to remind listeners. With the risks are now that the bill has been passed. And if you could start with describing briefly and then the negative outcomes that you envision the is called the Child Parent Security Act. Which would I mean? There's a lot of parts to it but to make a very long story short. It would fully legalize commercial surrogacy and the devil's in the details with this right. Because first and foremost the background checks for the intended parents are little to none the residency requirement for women who are going to be intended. Surrogates is a very short time. I think six to nine months which is literally nothing and the bill. Actually the language of the bill is copy and pasted like Barbados from a surrogacy. And you could see it online. Look up the company's website. Look at the bill. The language is the same. So there's a lot of corporate interests and corporate involvement in the Child Parents Security Act but with regards to how this affects woman particularly basically New York has made it legal for for women to be Guinea Pigs. You know. That's the only way I would describe this bill What this means. Is that if anybody not even a couple because there have been stories of surrogates surrogate parents who are single parents. Living in very very low grade homes paying for a poor woman to have a child for God knows what reason what does though means. Is that any person who has an extra thousand couple thousand dollars could pay for poor woman to be injected with a host of cancer inducing hormones to be subject to this under researched but higher-risk science for what to have a baby and what is the. What is the reasoning behind it? People are saying that people have a right to have a genetic family. But don't women have the right to not be guinea pigs for corporate Industry you know this. It's the question that we always see. Do Women Have Rights? You know do art to are women protected from the harms of the Industry. And when it comes to this extra when it comes to surrogacy we see. The answer is no so before the bill was passed. Wasn't there surrogacy already well. There was this. Altruistic surrogacy is a thing right and and but altruistic surrogacy is a lot different than commercial surrogacy because altruistic. Surrogacy is like you know. Let's say my friend wanted to have a baby but she was infertile and I knew how much you wanted to be a mother and I said or I'll do this for you out of the goodness of my heart because you're my best friend and I want to do this for you. That is a much different bond then a contract because the bond between a surrogate mother and intended parents under full commercial surrogacy is nothing more than ink on a pen. It's a contract and we've heard dozens of stories of women. Women of color particularly who had wealthy white intended parents and the white intended parents would use racial slurs against the mother and not pay for any of the mothers Means while she was pregnant with their surrogate child and then the mother gives birth and the child is yanked away from the mother. It's overall physically emotionally traumatic experience and we have just sanctioned it as a market as an industry. Just go crazy. It's going to be a free for all of the industrialization of women's what about people celebrities like Sarah Jessica Parker and Kim Kardashian. They've famously had surrogate children or children born through surrogacy. That wasn't there some sort of commercial transaction there. Why was that legal? I mean I don't know those cases particularly I imagine that a lot of these folks living California maybe but I mean those people sort of give an example of our surrogate parent. The surrogate parents are people with significant wealth. They have a lot of money. Surrogacy is not cheap but the money that goes into the surrogacy process is not seen by the surrogate mother. You know and the money in itself. It goes back to The issue of prostitution in a way. Because does the money itself or the sanctioning of a market where that money can even be exchanged. Does that excuse? The harms that women encounter when they're going through the surrogacy process. I mean there are stories. Two Girls Young Girls who are twenty something healthy brilliant young woman who sign up to be egg donors and you know die. Within five or ten years from unexplained cancers and we're talking about women who have never had health issues to begin with and that's because I don't know if you're familiar with the process of donation or to be a surrogate to begin with but you need to be injected with a lot of hormones so that you produce I think like up to fifteen times the number of eggs in one cycle so you a lot of times women who are going through the process. Get something that's known as Hyper Burien Syndrome. Which is deadly. You know it could be fatal. We're talking about science. That has not been researched enough for us to now pass industry-driven bills on women's health. This sounds a lot like you know when you were talking about. I I mean I. I'm aware of this bill from the support that celebrities such as Sarah Jessica Parker Have given it. But in the worst case scenario getting back to the sex trafficking conversation you know if there's no regulation at all. I can imagine how someone who's interested in child sex trafficking would want to get to create children actually then traffic them and put them into child pornography or whatever. It is to create some sort of mechanism for earning money. Yeah yeah absolutely and you know I could also see Traffickers Pimps who control women in the system of prostitution sort of offering being a surrogate as break so to speak to you know. Get off get out of prostitution in become surrogate like it's just it's a market and a lot of people are going to be entrepreneurs for lack of better words and they're going to abuse it. That's without a doubt and you know what's interesting about celebrity. You hearing this from occurred The US is one of the few countries to have full commercial surrogacy. It's been banned in so many in more. In more than most countries I think full surrogacy is banned because they recognized how harmful this is and how dangerous and how under researched this. This entire thing is and it's we're talking countries where like relatively speaking women aren't even woman woman on are still still face a lot of oppression in these countries but still their governments recognized that full surrogacy is deadly and in unacceptable but the US doesn't. It's just very strange. I think the European Union India Thailand they've all band full commercial. Surrogacy I just don't know how we got here and I think the only explanation for it is the influence of people with massive wealth and industries and unfortunately those groups run America in a lot of a lot of ways So it's just a reflection of our priorities and our priorities don't involve women's rights a lot of the what I've heard and read about why women are reluctant to leave beyond the coercion and the financial factors are the cultural ones in terms of being stigmatized. That they won't be able to enter society and some sort of have some sort of economic role that you know that they'll be able to access because of their history and so it's really interesting. How there's this dichotomy where on the one hand people are sorted legitimizing it in calling it sex work and yet. That's the same reason that people don't want to leave because they also are self sigma -tising and getting back to the bill for decriminalizing. It lacks just as much in terms of regulation as the Child Parent Safety Act. I heard because any home any domicile can be turned into a brothel and there were no restrictions around advertising so you could have advertisements on the subway or on buses that promote prostitution as a job to two girls right. And we've we've seen that we've seen the there was something that a sex worker advocacy organization here. New York had a an exhibit and they were advertising all over the set of ways. Thanks to a healthy fund from open society foundations which also fund the global sex trade. So yeah these people have access to massive wealth because there is vested interest in securing sexual access to women So people want to put their money behind it and they do and we see that saw. The same thing is going to happen with surrogacy. I believe I mean we don't. We don't even need to go very far to see that this is true. We can just look at the language of the bill and see that a literal corporation wrote this so at the end of the day. We just follow the money right. Where is the money? It's all behind the sex trade. You know it's not with survivors of prostitution. Who are talking about how harmful their buyers are. It's not talking about survivors of the sex trade who say yeah. I did this to pay rent but I wish I didn't. I wish I wish college wasn't so expensive. I wish this. I wish that I wish I could live a life. You know decently without having to be exploited by the male gaze. You know it's follow the money and you'll see it's not with us. Is there anything we can do now? That the bill has been passed to try to minimize the harm to women. Yeah I think The surrogacy issue New York is a is a massive upset. I don't think that we should just. I don't think we should give up too soon. Because the full decriminalization. Bill is still on that. That fight is still on. And I'm happy to say that. A lot of advocates with the New Yorkers for the equality model which involve direct service providers lifelong activists Lawyers you name it survivors primarily you name it. They're with us. We have put together a bill for the equality model that we are excited to introduce to the New York Senate very soon hopefully but that is what I think. We should rally around. You know. We've seen how ferocious the fight is legally especially when you have mega corporations behind it but that doesn't mean that we can't go against it and it means that we shouldn't go because you know how many suffragettes were there. How many women did it take to start the global feminist movement? Just one just a couple you know. So if we all rallied together not let something like surrogacy. Get us down. I think that we could you know. Come out of this. A Lot. Stronger and We'll set a precedent in New York if we pass the equality model here Where you know corporations will not win. Do THEY WILL BAY. May when a few battles. But they won't win. The war would definitely gonNA including those links so please share them with absolutely so Laura were at the point of our conversation where we ask every guest. The same set of questions that I've adopted from inside the actors studio call the engendered questionnaire and the first question is what is at stake in the struggle to end. Gender-based violence and oppression. What's at stake? Go the lives of our sisters. I mean I think it's that simple. When we think about Mel violence and we think about Patriarchy and oppression. We have to remember that those things are not natural with the tagline for firms organizing decolonize. Feminism because when we're when we're talking about decolonization that is removing these systems of oppression that have been imposed on our sisters. Both here and abroad. We see that things like Patriarchy are not normal. You know those things are not inherent to our existence so I think remembering where we came from is at stake. The lives of our sisters are at seek also remembering where we're going and that's to a feminist future where women are not the exception. What gives you hope. Oh Oh the same thing my sister. I think this fight is so hard. Oh my gosh I think every day we look at each other and we think we're over this But again there's a lot of us in. We are lesion but the power of money and influence is not on our side and yet we win. And how insane is that? How insane is it that a group of fifteen fierce feminist in any given state of the US with nothing but a couple of dollars in their pocket can make waves and change laws? That is what gives me hope. Because I've seen it and I intend on continue doing it and final question. What can we do? More of less of start or stop to end gender-based violence and oppression. We need to do more reading. We need to do more reading. I feel like every time I read a reactionary argument. It's something that could easily be debunked. Aw If if you just do your basic women's rights wheat reading read revolutionaries read activists read freedom fighters. Step away from buzzfeed. Read people who have done the good fight and why they're doing it because you'll get a lot of wisdom and a lot of guidance and we wouldn't be here today for if it weren't for them so we definitely need to do a lot more reading we need to do a lot more reflection At this especially goes to you. I don't know how large your mail listener audiences but this definitely goes to the men in our lives. Patriarchy has emboldened men in such a way that certain violent behaviors are inherent to their attitudes and their behaviors. And I think men needs to do a lot of self reflection you know. It's not easy but for you to be a feminist ally Because that I believe is is omen. Could be our allies to the feminist movement. It requires a lot of humbling. And that's really hard. I know we talked about pornography briefly but when it comes to that issue when it comes to the straight I think a lot of men can get on board but when my experiences the final frontier for them is pornography because we as a society have justified. Things like ethical porn or feminist porn. But if you can apply the same concepts of industry and oppression onto the street he could do the same for pornography So that is definitely what we need. More of. We need more sisterhood. You know we need more Women who are who wants to be feminists but not the fun kind. What I mean by that is a woman who adopts like one of the boys. Feminism what I call pro feminism things that viewed right into misogyny and patriarchal expectations but making it pink and therefore making feminists. We definitely need more sisterhood. And that's going to me in coming off as you know a a B word sometimes but if we don't have one another's backs than what do we have read Andrea Dworkin read Audrey and join the firm all right. Well thank you so much. Laura and I look forward to sharing all the resources that you've touched upon with our listeners. Thank you so much terry. As well as the fund thanks for listening to this episode engendered. The show is sponsored by candy. Cuny Appear Base Knowledge Platform that connects social service providers in advice community. Learning you can join can do at Kua for free at Q. N. A. Dot K. A. N. d. It DOT com. I'd love to get your feedback in here. Any questions or suggestions you may have for the show please. Email us at engendered. Podcast a gmail.com with your questions.

prostitution US Trans Women New York City rape New York National Organization of women Laura Ramirez Coalition Against Trafficking Terry Ray Cova Times Trans community partner K. A. N. D. U. Union
Reverse-Cast Unpopular Characters - Brett Davis Tries His Best

Dark Tank with Yedoye Travis

47:02 min | 1 year ago

Reverse-Cast Unpopular Characters - Brett Davis Tries His Best

"Forever Welcome to brain machine network DOT COM Bruin. Okay everybody hello. We're back in the studio. Welcome to another episode of Dark Dank your weekly reminder that I'm cool in you're not hey I'm your host Utah Louis Travis. It's good to be back here. We took a little hiatus For for a kind of A. I'm not even really sure how long it was just kind of on on and off and on and off again Because your boy is irresponsible and has a lot of other obligations in the world. Doing on a lot of doing too many podcasts. I'd say too many podcasts. I'm I'm here with my With my guests this afternoon to very funny. COMEDIANS Indians from New York City in New York City. They're based in New York City. We'll talk about where they're from after this break and Rebecca. Hey Laura Ramirez how you doing. Hey thanks for having me. Thank you for being here. How are you? I was doing really good today. Yeah Yeah that's great are you. I'm good. I'm pretty good at day yesterday where I didn't really talk anyone all day. What were you doing I was just kind of well. I was supposed to be writing but then I was. I was mostly playing smashed Rosenfield and I just found every video game in my house and I played it for a couple of minutes. Tenets wow I don't know how I did get your writing done no or you writing for A job yeah. Yeah my other podcasts What's your other podcasts podcast? It's a it's a show about anime for a for crunchy roll. Wow Yeah doing a lot. An anime content. You love anime. I love anime big anime fan every every black person does that. They won't tell you. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah I know this unanimity fan. My brother was. Yeah Yeah you get him on the show probably. He's so funny. Yeah Yeah. He's the funniest person I know. Busy do comedy at all now. Oh May business you should tell them. Yeah I now would you do what do I do. Yeah I do comedy as a little joke we do sorry. I'm been dark. Tanked you've been DR tanked. He been tanked You any are you working on anything. Cool coming up what's going on in your Immortalize World I'm Music I made a music video. Premiering that that's very cool when as premier The circus We're GONNA do live premier and then a a music show Cherie at our wicked lady at seven thirty PM. Cra Do my monthly show with my friends in an amy That's On the twenty seven and then I'm taking my solo show to Minneapolis in November. And maybe some other places as a very exciting place Prince Prince from there been there have never been anywhere really so I'm excited to go. Yeah yeah that's going to be very fun. I've been wanting to go to Minneapolis for a long time and do shows out there. Cool like minutes. Oughta yeah waters of Lake Matt. Scott she pels get. It'll be great you're GONNA do Great are white for this episode. Hello Hey Brad Davis how you doing. It's on July. I'm sorry it's so bad yet. Yeah so I I didn't WanNA bring it up bring it up now. I'm actually doing fine. Now get into it now. There's nothing if you had if you had to. If you had a problem what Whoa to be I was going to bring up like Some tragedy or something. Yeah Yeah but actually no not do it. I have no tragedies to bring up. You have none. Laura's answer is so positive so on and to balance it out yeah we gotTA Balance Energy now. I feel like I feel we can do some positive some negative. Let's start with. What are you working on? What's going on what's going on in your life? Maybe we'll get into the bet stuff actually have no bad stuff. Nobody Wanna I mean there's always there's always bad stuff no no no no. That's okay okay now that stuff since we're GONNA leaguer. Nah I I don't know what am I doing this a anime podcast for crunchy roll. Okay that's cool gray. That's that's mostly. Tell me about anime. I was was avoid so miles ashamed. Yesterday says playing video games. Oh Yeah Yeah you think you're cute. You think what you're doing now is cute. I don't know Laura Louis that's that's Listen to this. What is this new direction? He's got one I just saw good. I had a Show on Sunday. Does that culmination of many years of stealing someone's name yeah nation. Yeah I did a show called Macaulay Culkin's show for years and years and we finally got him to appear on it. Yeah that's really setting how the show was good advice up pictures of everything shows not in it. Looks like a great time Outed had mccully. I feel weird to say in his first name. We call him Mac you call him at a weekend column. Okay okay okay. I'm not there on that Willie there yet so like he enjoyed the show. He had a good time he was he was in a bunch of bits and he was assist hanging out. That's good spirits. What is he up to now is he? Like does he have anything going. On in his He's working on a podcast rate now for crunchy role. Can we bring somebody else onto this. Can we animate. Oh Yeah what Ah name an animal student show about skurdal deep dive. I really hate having a podcast by really. Don't like it at all so many I I have to another one It's just the two. Oh it's just the two but it's too many I feel like it's a lot of time commitment in a lot of animator watch. What's your favorite anime men? I don't know it's a IT'S A. It's a something I'm not too familiar with. Oh Oh yeah I guess so you just start off cold with his podcast. You are like me as ocoee movies. So Yeah Yeah Yeah Miyazaki. But that's the most famous. Yeah Ah that's like saying later. My favorite band is Beatles is gingy Ito anime. No that's Manga right. I have no among is like the. That's like the It's like the precursor to a lot of anime so it broke. Rally is so jen. Gee He does like that horror. He's like he makes horror comics and then they make movies out of them. Yeah I mean if they make movies are they animated movies now but they're like live action but they're fucked up there's one called the spiral. Oh it's so fucking good yeah people just like twist into these spirals it's amazing. They're really making every time you do things we we lose. You like Games podcasts. Yeah they just leave this. What endoscope straight over to crunchy roll? It's really good. Anyone can do the like like resting Pika Chew but you do action pick anybody and do the basic well. Yeah Yeah I should learn more. You should now we should you know what's Pika Chew like having like a nice snack peak at okay. That's just human lip. Sounds though he has human lips didn't use it when they close up may do that Ren and stimpy close up on him. He's got a beautiful woman lips. Oh Yeah Yeah I do remember them. So my peak achieve body pillow has human lives. Yeah it's good now wear though Oh top and bottom and the back and the back of course you gotta get three just three lips or three sets ellipse three sets of lips. Okay okay with Z.. Y. needed clarification. Yeah right yeah so I maybe we should go ahead and get into this thing This whole this whole thing So I had a I had a weird thing today. My Dad doesn't really talk to me. He just is kind of communicates through suspicious on facebook and senator Sudan if you're out there if you're listening to the show you just call me. I'm not really on facebook that much anymore. So you could just call today and I saw this This thing you sent But you know just shoot me a techs next time But he he sent me a video that posed a I guess a moral quandary. Then I think a lot of black people have to face in their daily lives and I'm sure I'm sure you guys have dealt with About whether or not to use the N. word read. I'm sure sure Every day every day has question many times a day no Okay so so confirmation. I appreciate that and know that was joking. You joke easy to say no. No no I heard Brad say Middle Guy. Yeah okay You know I have the I have that problem my brother says it. Oh Yeah Yeah. But he's darker skin than me okay and are mixed so maybe you shouldn't do income. Wait are you mixed with a mixed with black okay okay. So that's what but because I'm light skinned I don't WanNa say it. That is understandable. Hannibal and I think a lot of A lot of people choose whether or not to say based on like just how they see themselves in the world and I think that's fine Brad on the other hand I appreciate your honesty. You should probably chill. My overall rule is Never say it on unless it's like a you so you need to say for some clinical purpose. We had. What a white person here that you know says it Um No really no actually you shit. I've thought about it. I can't decide if I want this podcast to be like Deliberately inflammatory or if I just I wanted to be like I mean to have this. You know a real conversation with someone may sway them. Yeah I just don't want like I'm not asking everyone now that you're here do presence here so I never heard breadth of your make a case for why you should say I do appreciate that now. I don't I don't I don't and have a the argument for that but just like if we wanted to do it like high school debates value take stands that you don't believe in if you had to make a case for why you should say the N. word ooh This feels like a trap. It is but all follow us because it feels 'cause fields because it's because it's a 'cause it's a song and it comes up on the Karaoke and you thought it would be flipped out okay. That's yeah you're not thinking. I think that's a that's acceptable. Well if you're so into the song you're singing into a screen you just like just Trinidad James is on and just you know everybody knows I one song you know Senate Dolgov would is the type of but if a wine in fact I feel like I feel like she does it after a wine but she liked uses the wine as an excuse like she was already planning on saying it and then she's like I got my wine I it's like talks wine cameo. She's what Cameo is Kim. You cameos at thing where like celebrities are on and you could send them money to say whatever whatever you want. Yeah Yeah we make her say. Yeah a map. I can download E it's on. It's just a website. Oh my God can yeah. I think she's on much money as she. She's like thirty bucks or something. Oh Dude I wanNA make her I want to host this show called the the nigger show and I wanna put her and I just WanNa like thirty dollars you pay for a cameo every week and then put it out as a podcast best great. That'd be great idea like Patriot content. That'd be great But no I did I did. I did a show a a few months ago where they did that. They had her Read off the lineup and nothing and hearing her say my name was one of the most jarring. Things insist that I've ever experienced in my eyes. Ahah right yeah really deeply uncomfortable. Because she's black all right and that's our show American artists activists author. Rachel Dole. Zoll book now for fifty dollars. Price is fifty in one day. Wow Wow wow. She's waiting for your call. Maggie price did go up. Yeah it's probably people are telling her to say bad things or something. Yeah yeah probably something like that another twenty if you want me to say the F. Word got us the fuck that one happy so on into payer fifty dollars a week and then put out a podcast. or It's you and her hosting. Yeah it'd be great to like record half a podcast and just have her just respond to it for thirty dollars so anyway. This video My Dad sent it addresses what we are talking about. It's by you guys. Remember Afro Man Yeah He apparently does not believe leave. You should say the N.. Word and so he made this is. What's up Mikka? Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega. Uh Hey man. Don't call me. That wow what are you want me to. They don't call me Anwar. Yeah uh-huh for North Eighty third to taste top is the word. The word is traced Sunderland word. The now we know Spanish word Mr Mousy -ation occurred and there was the birth of the word Baba Zine hundred it was firmly established into rock to arena. Shame in it remains. It is within no matter who's using it abused in it in the lose the melting pot of soup racial slurs from all ethnic groups in were mistrust mistrusts rape humiliation total senate. He said what do you say rape idea. I believe he did And I feel like for anyone listening you should i. I should know He's at he's like. This is shot like parties where he's just surrounded by white people. Yeah it looks like you went to a Frat. It looks like you went to Joe. Hold hold the hold this camera. I'm going to shoot a music video right now. They don't know the words. I am just I look first of all. You could have tweeted this. It could have been a tweet and I feel like They probably has a lot of time on his hands. He probably does have a lot of time on his hands. And I you know what I do. Appreciate that he He did this right off. The heels of punching a white lady in the face on stage I think that's very fun you guys remember when that happened to know he punched a white lady. Yeah she Mets cool though yes she crept up behind him on stage. I guess like was dancing or something behind. He got scared. Yeah G. Any turned and punched her. which honestly who's to say wait? said she got on stage while he was performing I mean it's like you shouldn't do that. You shouldn't do that now. You shouldn't do that. Earl sweatshirt has done the same thing too. I guess a wicked dude Y but we'll have to stop getting on stop stops sneaking up on black people. Yeah it's fair. I feel like general rule of thumb. Don't sneak up on black people but I just it just seems like a strong way to start sort of video about not saying the N.. Word is to let me just Just to refresh everybody's number eight. Just Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega Mega Man. I don't know if y'all forgot this. That happened. Just seems like like a weird way to start to like say a bunch of times and then say go. Maybe don't do that to me. I mean I I get it. That's fine violent beginning. It is a violent beginning but also like I don't know I understand where you're coming from but I also like look through the comments and it's of course just like a bunch of white. Why people agreeing with him? And you know I feel like the second Ma majority of white people agree with me on anything. I like Sorta to go back and just reassess my opinions. I mean I don't know this is is I don't know he post. He sent me. This today is from about a month ago. It says in the state of the facebook video. Oh Wow yeah I I just feel like we. We established black. People are saying Nigga. No Yeah I mean saying it yet. They've been yeah you guys say it. I don't jail was covered already. I remember when I decided not to but I have tried. Yeah Yeah I have tried ride and it fell not natural. Yeah but the moment that I decided not to it was in Middle School in Miami and a lot of people were saying it. A high school Miami that some Middle School in Miami and there is this other mixed girl Gabriella and I'll never. I'll never forget this moment. She was far away from me And she was in this group of girls like the popular girls and she was trying to be popular and I was a freak so I was like just staring at them and I remember her saying it to herself so that she could say it to them Like my n word and and it looks over so yeah rehearsing and I was like and then later would see her saying hang at you know Just more and I was like I'll never forget that and I will never do that. And that's when I decided. Yeah Yeah Yeah I feel like if you yeah if you have to rehearse any word is probably not a word for you The whole word of the day thing always bothered me for that reason Mike. Sure sure learn a word but let let creep into your vocabulary. Organically what he doing. Yeah yeah I I if I differ on the word of the day argument but I know that Snow over here talk about right. We're talking about the N. Word which you've firmly established that ease what I thought. I thought you mentioned that it was a joke but I mean just just to make things change just to make sure I don't know if it's that clear when industry never heard you not say the N. Word so say never heard distrup- it casually and I'm I'm not Unaware of it. Yeah have I said it during the course of the show comes on time. Yeah the video was playing with little whisper. I feel like you were just a little aggressive. The Yeah Yeah. I'm so I'm so sorry I just gotTa work on that. Yeah Yeah you should really like look into Your behavior moves around people of Color Cheese Ham. Sorry notes I appreciate that you wore all white to this. Do appreciate that yeah. It's a shirt not like a medicine. There's there's a hat also had two black Pants or black interesting. It was a message. Yes the Unity Messager unity between who lacks weights. How about the other people? It's all in between it's for another. We're not covering that today. You can only make one major statement with your clothes Reyat course I mean you. Pit like socks Brown socks deal. Color your socks or no gray gray gray or white white bread. I feel like we've gotten off on the wrong foot. No I feel like we really started In a weird place and I I I'd like to Reset Brett If I had to ask you What it what we're doing about all this racism in the world There's a lot going on. You know it still exists What are you what? What are we doing to solve it? You know 'cause I feel like we I feel like we're asking all the wrong questions. Were looking to the wrong things. I feel like black. People not saying the N.. Word is not really a solution. And so I think it only makes sense for me to turn to you A white man for real real tangible solutions to real tangible problems. So what do we do well in the name of Dark Tanka a it did come up with the you know I. I can't solve it. I don't think it's it's up to awaken. No you have to let the whole show always you have to solve it. I want I think I think I can address it head on and may be lit the spark that will eventually maybe grow to a larger fire. Here we have like forty minutes like how is there not enough time. I think it's enough time to solve racism. I L let me like just try. I'm just you know it's like doesn't have to be perfect but we can work out the kinks and I'll I'll just give it my best shot. Yeah you know I'm always seeing these things online Most recently with like Little Mermaid James Bond but but it always seems to pop up that there. Are you know More diverse castings for traditionally by characters right rank and in some people especially astles on the Internet. They they start start out in their life. Walking out of racism thing is just how I knew the character. But it's pretty much a racist thing So I want some sort of cannon fodder for the other side of that argument so what I WANNA do is I want to create a movie studio make real low budget movies. Churn them out like like the full like cannon style. If you know that that that movie company they were just making movies like once a month that Canon with one or two thing to end sue. Sudan's yeah they didn't really bad superman one okay got better And and what I want to do is I want to take a characters set Or are already not wait. That people don't want and make white versions of those characters. I apologize for yelling at you. Do you WANNA go again The same different. Thank you do the same. Do the same again too so yeah yet so throughout history. I'll I'll do it from the other side. I yeah. Of course history. There have been The characters that have always been appreciated by the communities that they are supposedly representing thing. So I wanNA take those characters and and moved them and make them wait and then when people are like oh either Salva. He can't be James Bond. Someone could argue. Well no no. We got midday. It's a fair trade. They've made about the same amount of movies and stage place. I WANNA come those. I appreciate you Meeting yourself just just to and clear I also think it's This is only kind is Kinda SANTEUIL but I I. I've heard a lot of white people call. Call her MEDAGLIA PADEAS Sir. Medea is the the Greek gods name is Monday right or the right okay. I've been studying being in Greek literature right by writing course of course. Here's your hair. What is my day actually do in like Bo myth and the mythology? Oh God of Famine yeah is that true. Yes I'M GONNA go ahead and we're just gonNa Google that just but but like now we can have like a black Zena because you know there. There's going to be also. It's like a tradeoff laid off. Okay okay so where were they the white mcadoo. If if that's what a people I mean I guess there already is a White Madera Mrs Doubtfire Mrs Doubtfire and also Madina the actual ramp. Well I got actually you the Mrs Dow who it is and now we. We just have Tyler Perry. I'd argue that Mrs Doubtfire is a is just a single father doing whatever it can connect to connect connect with his way or no. No no no. That's white big Momma's house. I'm still confused. That's correct actually. Yeah so that's taken care of the trade back big Mama. Our company's GonNa take these unwanted properties and just churn out the stuff way unwanted properties reasoning We'll have a committee you know I would define the term unwanted properties. Well let's say Our Community Eh Committee says my no. We don't need big Momma's house. We want to have like a wolverine of color. So we'll do the job and take take a take those properties that they don't want like a big Momma's house and we'll have like a white big momma's house already. Lying is back. Welcome back into the fold First of all big Momma's house classic Yakking. Big Momma's house two. Yeah I three players and seventy rifles. You haven't equals. Yeah the one with his son now the the first one is with his son. Okay Nathan. It's been a while. Yeah I guess they all our habits I don't I'll have to look at but okay so we'll we'll go the fundamental missile part of your plan. We'll take any of these. You lied characters that Martin Lawrence has done that and make sure and make those carry out white But he's still Martin Lawrence. It's in the movies. I mean those movies are still getting sister posterity. But you know we'll we'll do. These trades and our goal is not to make the biggest movie. We WanNa make the most movies okay. So we're just making a lot of movies and this plan okay. So if I'm not mistaken. Yes we're we'RE GONNA TAKE WE'RE GONNA take every black movie or we're GonNa take just just the ones that people the ones that haven't aged well so okay so you guys can take like biker boys with Teresa Warrants Fishburne. No cap and you can take was at one Christmas movie with these young fly You guys can have that okay and and you can have Non Every other black movie is great ourselves to that Just a traditionally black movies. We'll take these characters that were may be shoehorned in or or were just tokenism characters And and we'll we'll take those characters in the reboots. Those characters are portrayed by a white person. Okay Okay so wait now are we doing spinoffs with yes. Huge as doing full spin offs with just the token characters of but their way but they're white. Yeah so like like why Apu. Yeah we'll do away to Yeah y'all you're already have a voice actor for that perfect honestly up. This is his chance. This is his redemption. Yeah yeah so does the same breakout again. It does do the voice in mystery man does he too. Yeah Donaldson's have seen that movie. He's in so many movies and I. I didn't know that was him. Yeah different face obviously. Now he's the only personnel to just ingest Did he apologize publicly. Oh Yeah Oh wait. Yeah he did and then. He said he wouldn't stop doing doing. It is a no. He said Somebody brought up a good point. I think he has stopped right. There's just like someone. Is it someone someone else now. I'd have MS relations to nap at a he. He he was like. Yeah oh I don't know just be reruns or something or learn. If there's a new there might be a new person okay now. I didn't know that they were doing that though. That'd be cool. If they had the new person redouble the old episodes roads employed for the rest of their life. Exactly yeah be cool. We could bring him just as an EP on it and he can distance himself. Yeah but Jamie Kennedy. UNROLL or something something like that. David Arquette as Abu. I really hate that. I started this this show. I really deeply regret it. And I'm and I think the fact that it still is going despite that Just makes my in my life worse by the day. Yes so what do you have to say about that Sorry other episodes of lived up to this one. So just as white people in doing black roles You know I think I you know white Dolemite I don't well we gotta wait. We gotta see how that Eddie Murphy. The netflix old dolemite. Well sure yeah. The old Dole Mayan call it. Something like Amethyst or something. I don't know who is who is the WHO would be a good weight. DOLEMITE good white dolemite bad comedian John C Reilly Ninety minutes. AM after bad comedian. He's very funny. WE'LL GET BIG J. O.. Kherson the new way dull of dolomite. Yeah Yeah Big J. Honestly he's been looking for via Jalen. Might Yeah you it might sound like what Okay so what would be your dream movie till like Redo as a as a white movie. Well you know this is where the committee comes. Listen I'm asking your opinion This is your idea. Well Probably Birth of a nation. That would be hard a mobile epic. All the roles are switched. Apologize for Yelling at you. Sorry a very white movie Andy something like more modern like I don't know like Like Black Panther. Would you redo Black Panther. Well you know that's if Any of these characters people look back at Black Panther and say oh that character was a little was a little not great. How would you Redo Black Panther? We wouldn't Redo by historian class. Or scribe it wouldn't it wouldn't touch it but if you had you a high school debate roles icicle debate rules. had to change Black Panther for the wider So we're recasting black. The recasting Black Panther awake cat yes. That's what I'm asking you. How would you knew it okay? Let's start at the top but STU let's go shall is GonNa be the The guy from sons of anarchy blond guy. I don't know his name Sherri's stories going to be The the Blonde Girl From Big Bang theory Who Kelly quote? Yeah Klay We're GONNA get like Heather locklear Seemed a little dated. Don't you well. This is still at means this. Circum Yeah you know she could be Let's roll the graphics of the Yeah his kill monger. ooh We need a real powerhouse. Our House Danny Devito the taking your own. What's up on T.? We just put him on an apple box. He's regular in this movie. Yeah Car Her who who. Else Forest whittaker that could be like Zuri Yes zuri could be Kevin in James Great Perfect Do you guys remember all these out comics. Right yeah I mean I. I just liked that movie very very good move. I don't remember anyone's name in any movie or anybody. His full name celebrity wise except for Timothy Shalmi Timothy Hammett Timothy Shalam. Who would you cast as What's the what's the one white dude's name Martin? Freeman me Martin Freeman. What is his But his his character. Forget the guy's name all the time. It's just like good wake like yeah so we need somebody like funny. You need a good black guy so if you had to cast someone is a good black guy. Who would you cast chucky ducky quack quack? Checky now the person Chucky ducky now it's been it's been a while since we've seen him could be one of those kind of Tarantino Keno asks like just like Oh yeah great all right so we. I mean. We're working with the budget here. We have to understand of course course of court see. You're going to get heather locklear here. Just blow out your whole budget on Heather locklear And Danny Devito. Yeah and then and then just go straight to Shuki Duck. I Dunno it is asking prices. So you know. We'll see how the cards fall. When we're we're doing the budgeting but maybe you could get Bill Cosby or something new bill. Koch's he'd be like super cheap right now. Yeah Yeah he could play To Chaka. Oh yeah it'd be like Ghost Dad too. Yeah I guess he already did go stat one. Yeah I'm I'm GonNa say that's the one that's the one role we don't reverse cast. Oh that's the only one. Yeah Betsy he is still to Chaka. When I'm just I'M GONNA say he's? He's going to be the only African playing an African roll right right right. We're winning shows taking so when he shows up but the spirit plane he's going to be very confused. Yeah and that's something we just bring a green screen into the prison. Set it up and write ray of bang booms meal. Well now turns out when you die. You're black we're just taking him. He's GonNa be a franchise player. We're GONNA put out a bunch of cosby movies. We're releasing all plays sucks companies really that we're not trying to make art. We're trying to provide counter argument for you. Know these these assholes that are like other. You know there can't be a you know. Miles Morales is going to be Peter Parker right and to end in order to counteract that You just re re jumpstarting bill cosby's career again that's your okay Works for jeep. So I gotta say I'm out I think I'm out okay. And what do you think and you in okay. Yeah aren't GonNa make a Lotta money from this. You're probably right you're probably you're okay All of these over the top streaming sites. They're paying for the licensing so you know they just one content two right right right of course of course we will see these familiar if you had to pick a streaming platforms. Where would you go probably crunchy roll so down it actually when my gravity contact info before slee? Yeah I'll let me give you my card okay. So okay so your plan is your plan to solve races of mind you is to restart bill. Bill Cosby's career with an anime remake of fat Albert and the Kospi kits. Were going to or I am not saying look cruncher will must have puts out enemy. We're just GONNA get we're GONNA do Flash. It's GonNa look like homeowner it's but it's animated. Yeah that's intimate. Okay technically Scher. You know stitch just the Japanese worker animation fair enough. Yeah so yeah. We'll we'll do a fat Albert. Yeah yeah okay honestly really interesting Take on the whole subject work no just a resounding resounding no okay but I feel like I'm not totally off the table yet is there are any character that may be growing up like this sucks like I don't think this character represents me and never thought like that when I was little I was like. TV is a great but what about like growing up. Like you know you're now you're an adult and you look back and say Oh God that character is just to Just broad stroke On all like all the Latin maids inca lot of maids. Yeah but then it's also so funny like I'm like fuck but I remember reading an article about this woman who was like. She can't get any role except for Latin mayoral. Now like that sucks. But also that's fucking funny is hilarious. So we'll put out at Spanish language movies for the made as white. Wow Okay and then it's late and everyone else Giora Seniora and like like the they're just like would learn learn Spanish They're going to be bad. Yeah that sounds great. Yeah yeah they're like deliberately bad. I think they're just deliberately shoddy okay. I'm not casting for the best right. You're discussing for sheep she predominant Mohmed. Okay all right. So to sum it up and may remake That Albert and the Cosby kids streaming streaming now reggie role As part of my upcoming podcasts Amin America on eventual with an all white cast. Of course all the characters were white. But they're all the characters are white. Smoke Bill Okay yes so I yeah I gotta say I'm out okay. Laurel I wou if you had to invest anything idea what would you say invest. Yeah just ending. I think it's an amazing idea and I will give all my money to link you a real American American dollars. Yeah all of my American and my pistols and me Besiktas. Wow well look sounds like you got yourself begrudgingly deal I did it. Yeah do do you feel good about what you've done I do. I'm so solved it. Well this has been the last ever episode of Dark Tank. podcast cast with your guests Laurel Ira Ramirez and Tom and Brett Davis well. This is the first one. We're putting out Where can everybody find you on the Internet guys? I'm I'm at pile of tears and then at pile of tears underscore art sealer show. It's really great. If you're in Minneapolis. Minneapolis sear show in Minneapolis. And then I I'm at Brett Davis. Rip Is that on twitter instagram. That's across the board breath. Dave is dying or Ip Fraud Platform. Yeah Elia proud of you keeping it since brand system okay well. I'm pro at professor on everything. instagram twitter all that stuff Got My podcast out. Crunchy roll Anime in America ooh and And a nice little Cosby kids remake income. ANCHO And I'll be at the ABI. It laughs comedy club in Seattle September. Sixty seven But this is the funniest thing that I'm ever GonNa do so I guess don't even worry about that Thank you guys has. There's been an episode of of Dr Tank keep it locked. Keep it loaded lookout for the. Aw I'm so happy. This is over now the N.. Word Hey catch US next week. This has been a production of forever in the brain. Does she executive produced by Brett Bowen Joselito. Late and Alex Ramsey for more original podcasts. Visit Forever Dog podcasts. Dot Com and subscriber shows on Apple. PODCASTS spotify forever. In get your podcasts. Keep up with the latest forever dog news by following us on twitter and Instagram at forever dog team and making our page on.

Bill Cosby Minneapolis facebook Brad Davis Heather locklear New York City Sudan senate Apple Danny Devito Laura Ramirez Albert Pika Chew twitter Miami Utah Rosenfield Brett Davis Rebecca Prince Prince
Episode 99:  Martin Hultman on misogyny and masculinities on climate change denial

en(gender)ed

59:01 min | 6 months ago

Episode 99: Martin Hultman on misogyny and masculinities on climate change denial

"Either podcast, listeners welcome to engendered the show that features stories that explore the systems practices new policies that enable gender based violence and oppression. And the solutions to end it. We used gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonize, hearts and minds one story at a time. Engender sponsored by Candu whipped spelled K. A. N. D. U. I. T. and I'm your host. Terry UN on this episode of the gendered podcast. Our guest is Martin Hultman associate professor in science, technology and environmental studies at the Department of Technology Management Economics at Chalmers University in Sweden Dr. Holtman research focuses on the influence of extremist views, such as sexism and far right nationalism on climate change denial. His latest book with Paul, who lay ecological masculinity chronicles the political landscape that has shaped the industrial breadwinner, an echo modern archetypes of masculinity both fueled by misogyny and their proposed ecological masculinity as a response that centers science, fact and reason and a respect for nature, our conversation with Dr Holtman will explore ways in which a response to addressing our climate crisis, and in particular the Covid, nineteen coronavirus pandemic will require that we as society address how we socialize boys and men, if we are to save ourselves and our planet from mutual and guaranteed destruction. Welcome Martin. Cure Delve into your background and your journey of how you became interested in learning about this topic of masculinity and its intersection with climate, change and climate activism. Krom in energy politics, them energy industry true, and then they could see the the different numbers of men and women in politics and engineers in the energy sector that was kind of obvious for me when we said the energy, but then now lately are become more more interested in various forms of masculinity and not tone the binary categories of men and women. But also. Men vigils, Aurore, and be enact various forms of individual behavior values and value systems, and then especially different force. Masculinity came inches me lots. Did. You have any formal exposure to feminism. Definitely am one. I was on my first gear us. A PC student of became responsible for gendelman technology course at University Lynch, being interesting I was supervised by strummed there in this Professor Rain Masculinity Studies, so that was Kinda. speech, T and research exposure, and then in my master program. I, also that and ten to. Your latest Book Ecological Masculinity, as you talk about the ways in which it chronicles the political landscape, and you posit three masculinity. Some of which you've already written about in your scholarly research, one of them is term industrial breadwinner. Second one is equal Echo Moscow. Mail and then you posit a solution that ecological masculinity. Let's start with industrial breadwinner. How do you define that person? And how is that person created that archetype? In the more popular read, there's a little talk about talk. Signaling this. May Behavior and that is bad against the women and the planet. I think that kind of concept has gone viral in some sense and people can many ways relate to the kind of popular read concept toxic masculinity. We can say that Industrial Bedouin masculinity is a bit similar, but for me it's more of a academic concept, and it's more concept. That doesn't as more about to explain. This behavior has become so popular and is impacted by so many men in the word, and without saying that this is just totally bad, so it's more of an explanatory onset industrial breadwinner masculinity than toxic masculinity, so I came to this concept 'em through empirical analysis of Climate Change Denial. So. found it very curious that in Sweden around two, thousand, eight, two, thousand nine. A. Small Group that were against all climate science resolve and that group was also very much jenness, so it was. Older men and with the background within industry, and some right-wing politicians was also in that group and I became interested. Why are these men kind of denying the results on science? Why the so? And then came across some more survey studies that has been done in the US by Ronnie Dunlop and Ormoc Right. WHO also sold this group of men? As. A group. That doesn't want to take into account. Trump signs at all, but I became more interested in that group because seem that the characteristic of that group at before being the they were gonNA. either. That were stupid that the didn't take into the science into count or the they only acted on behalf of best interests like the oil companies, or those kinds of big corporations will think tanks, but I thought that both those two explanations didn't really fit the imperial I saw in Sweden. Even though the group was more was homogeneous, Otamendi in Sweden as well. They didn't seem to have neither connection to west interest in the much asked was maybe in the US and they didn't. Neither kind of and say no to old science was omitted climate signs. They were skeptical that they denied and this was a bit. Curious to me, because then it seemed to me that. It's much more run ideological issue. Would these men and Olsen identity shoe? So this is exactly what industrial breadwinner masculinity is I think of course is connected to listed interests. Many men who work within oil, industry or atop. On industrial modern. Industries at. This group, but it's also kind of audiology that. You'd think. The nature as something that you can just grab and use for. For everything that you need to to create. Wealth and money for humans. So we've connect back to this idea. The came about in the seventeenth century with Francis Bacon and the industrial revolution. This concept you explore in depth in your paper, a green fought while climate change as a threat to the masculinity of industrial modernity, and in it you highlight what I call tactics that are being used by these climate change deniers to convince the public that their narrative is valuable and credible, so I want to go through each of these one by one, so the first one is disregarded voices. I actually have likened it to for the listeners who? Who Know who are familiar with my podcast I'm always trying to make connections of abuse and abuse of power, and all the different realms, and to make connections so that when we see it in one space whether it's in our public marina, we can make those connections and recognize ended identified in our personal lives person, possibly in our personal relationships and vice versa, and so I'd like to use the term gas lighting with regards disregarded voice I to hear your thoughts about how accurate that is, and if you could also describe how those disregarded voices play out. Curve the could be a good. Analogy to it. Another one could be run. Donald trump say that he's GonNa Drain the swamp description of from coming from extremely powerful verson, but that he claims still that he's the. David Against Goria so he the create idea that even though you have a lot of infants or power a lot of money, you are the one that is. Outside of the of the playing field or you all the the smaller people's voice, so in that sense, they are trying to describe himself as David against golden or some other person who is. Outside of the elites and say. I'm against the trying to create an inner paradox. Go Away because at the same time they use their titles and their backgrounds to come up claim that position. I see and so in some ways that speaks to also the second tactic, which in your paper you describe as rational versus religious and I call that flipping the narrative, so this is know sort of an extension of gas lighting where you're trying to minimize or race or high, the actual person who is empower who is trying to oppress and in the case of abusers and domestic violence, but in this case they're using disinformation tactics. So can you describe what those disinformation tactics are that climate sceptics use to cast climate research as climate ISM, and how religion is used as a tactic. Barrier. Valley boom to understand those the. Culture aspects heroes. Sweden's so I think in Sweden it's. Even, more so prominent may be too if you call somebody that she or he is religious or that he base his or her value, judgments or judgments on. Religious grounds that is. Not, being understood as reliable or not, being understood scientific, or or truly in some broader sense. Nothing that he had. They are trying to also claim the position of the rationality. The the rational signs are some and say everybody else is reform. Kind of. Making up stories or creating ideas that is not true. Of course, this is also used. In the US I've seen such there, and and your but I think maybe it's also pendant on on the culture setting which those lanes are made. So you're saying that because religion or religious ideology and religious symbolism. Is considered less credible. That is calling someone. A term like Eko fundamentalist basically discredits any kind of argument. They have even if that argument is actually based on science at reasons, so just that label. Calf that person in a negative light? Okay, so the third tactic in your paper, which is the demise of industrialization and you talk about how this getting back to the concept of the industrial breadwinner I I liken this to casting the perpetrator as the victim kind of like how in the US a lot of people who are in working class sectors, especially that are fossil fuel dependent like mine workers. The cast themselves as the victim. When we're trying to move to a green economy and their opportunities for them to actually transitioned to that in terms of training and funding, but they refuse So can you talk about that? And how the demise of industrialization impacts this archetype? In. Your analysis and I also think it works on. An on, you're not to call in an ideological logical way. They are trying to describe that if we. Take Kid, the climate science for real and industrial modernisation. Will need to. Be stopped so. In that sense they they use the release strong idea in Sweden. The progress is connected to economic growth than it's connected to more and more industrial output, so that augment is kind of used a new way to downplay the the actual possibility of taking this I'm assigns for radio so so. This is kind of an argument that they use saying that If we then take this knowledge for real from the climate science then. Will this society even be by or done? That will not work anyhow, so it's kind of a inauguration to put the. Society that we have. Against the come sons resolved so what we need to change within this aside. Am I hearing you right when you're saying that the tactic is our current gender structures where the man is the breadwinner and we have these very defined gender roles. And we have these very defined gender roles that if we posit that against future, that's uncertain, that may disrupt these gender roles for a lot of people whose identity is tied to is women to to being taken care of financially and otherwise, and for the man to be the ride winter that that uncertainty of this other possibility is a threat. Not, only uncertainty I would say sold so out dried air claim that that so dangerous that such a change in societal structures. In their view, it goes against the biology. Both sexes so it's it's also kind of them at least connected to ID. Of the different roads is based upon informs ideologies of so in that sense. Those taco changes of the structures in this society of the Gender Rose Day. Halloween. Thinking Act as humans. That, that is not even possible, since they claim, it is not possible that the structures that. are kind of what they think of the the best ones or the only the only one possible even. So in a way it's almost like they're saying you can't be fully realized as a person as who you are. If we move to this other economy to this other belief system. Will Dome it is. Okay and then the climate sceptics, also you right in your the same paper that they describe themselves as marginalized band and oppressed, but at the same time they're also anti intellectual wisdom right, and and they use terms like elite and fancy people to to create an image of climate change proponents as an exclusive group so kind of the way like you mentioned earlier Donald Trump does that to to widen his base and strengthen his base their casting those. Who are climate activists as sort of up there other in a negative way, and so I call this casting themselves. The perpetrator, As the hero because they're kind of like. The fighting against this enemy, what are some of the examples in which they do this in the media or in their tactics? Some very tangible examples that they do this I wanna say that this after I wrote this paper. I've been reading up much. Much much more masculinity studies and then. Of course this way Oh kind of understanding yourself as the victim is very important to understand thinking relationship to masculinity his. Tasting the mome movements of in cells or angry white men. Kim Medal has written about or voting behaviors in various parts of the of the US I. think that this image of being the that has lost all for being the one that as even being suppressed it I think is extremely powerful construction that has been used not least a couple of years in the US. For the listeners in our community who haven't heard of the term in-cell, can you define what that is? In Celsius, it's All those men that are on voluntary Senate back and men who claimed themselves to not being attractive to women and do that. Create that identity of being out cost being. Somebody nobody likes they. Have communities around leads the there's been some of the mass shootings of lately connected this phenomenon and mass shootings overall are as we know almost own demands of. So, you were saying before I asked you about in cell to define in-cell is the ways in which I was asking the question earlier around making themselves the hero against anti-intellectualism. That is done for example claiming that the researchers are only doing this because they want to her and money, and they wanna be famous and. And these men they doing it because of. An inner guidance of doing the correct thing in the world. That's kind of one way of trading the enemy as even if it's Scientists. The enemies greedy and the enemy is someone who only want to be in this full power for. Bay themselves described him as they all day. Honest ones and they. Ones who are doing this for the sake of the whole JD vanity? That's one way to do it that. We have seen the they. Just to follow up in terms of tangible concrete examples in your green fought wa paper, you give the Uche you cite Carolyn merchant, the environmental historian, and WHO's the author of the death of nature and in her book she talks about Francis. Bacon, Utopia, the new Atlantis, and I was hoping that you could explain the way in which that book and that story was used to illustrate this tactic. To give an historical example talk about the ideas that came into the central this. Around the industrial revolution, in the seventeenth century. Among else Merchan-, being written the alternate analyzing and Francis Bacon ideas of. Our nature should only be something out there for humans to use as in mining or s natural, science. Experiments, but he also. Did the same thing in between men and women, as it did between man and nature. So if Matt Nature was. Something that man could use for it so you so for us versus Bacon also described. Women as a thing that men could use in be above, and in that sense, immunised read on the of roots for the industrial breadwinner on geology. Is this hierarchisation all humans over nature in which nature zone only a thing for humans to grabbing us but Fulham so in the same Launchi. Men are placed ball women. has also been arts of former nudge alleged. That justifies man's abuse against. As well as men's abuse against nature. I'm glad you brought up the term ECO feminism because one of the struggles that I had while I was reading. Your work was understanding where it falls into this category of ECO feminism. I mean obviously masculinity, studies and ECO feminism has been around for many decades. How does your work differ? How do you differentiate it from what's already been established knowledge in in that space? We are both hugely grateful for all the work that different Tanka feminists doing for. For. Fifty years now we could not have doing our work without them, so the inspiration from. Image historians like curly merchants. Lyrical scientist sociologists like. Susan Buckingham and detailing McGregor. As well as political colleges snuck zone, and also more on binary feminists like on down mushy. traditions being extremely for us both to To See empirical analysis coming out the tradition. To the top of the spectator to Jaundice Stan, these intersections work, but historically and today I think that or are the most important inspiration. Regarding sign it's theory is more recent were in the tradition of. Immaterial feminists and the eco-feminists. Working along that kind of tradition, so researchers like Stacey ally. Moe, than others are bringing in a very simplified way. Bringing in Metro -ality again in the analysis, not only dealing with these kind of issues as social constructions. So there we star so that Kinda warm comportment. Spray shift for us what we do had I've been towed by my eco-feminists colleagues. Is, the specific focus on various forms of masculinity is what we do then is to not stop being stuck in binary ideal men. Women reach Redo. Survey were in more quantitative analysis, which are really important as well, but if we if you start from a mole material feminist. Point and also college. You recognize that humans are more. On escape. And if you if you think humans in that way, it's more interesting to see what various groups having common and try to come forward analysis regarding that instead of thinking along owned a. Thumbs So that I've been told we. Bring into the conversation regarding eco-feminists, a strong focus on masculinity and focus, also on form semes- Clinton's as well as. The possibilities of change so understanding also that humans can be art of these categories and. Also, that it. These categories can be more understood as practice practice practices. So. That s human. You can be on industrial breadwinner when you do your minding in the mining corporation at your job. And, then as a shuman, you might come home. Do work in your garden and you might work for gender equality in voluntary organization, so it's also important that we do not put humans into these categories too easy. To understand them also s analytical categories, even though they are also emboldened by persons I can give examples of these counts cat, Greece, but it may be more interesting to see that people can change from one category to another. So. Would it be accurate to say that? Eko Feminism is a sort of the umbrella framework for understanding and explaining the connection between the exploitation and domination of the natural world and the subordination impression of women, and then your work provides layers and nuance of understanding how people mainly men that you study fall into different aspects of masculinity or navigate through those fluid by densities, and how they are formed how they are informed and shaped, and then as you said how they can be influenced to transform. We understand over as totally. Pro, feminist or feminist, definitely under the umbrella, own eco-feminists or Akra Feminism's because there are. Different forms of families also we are both grateful work that Equa feminists is doing and are doing. Real autodata were with them. Okay Great, so let's delve into another archetype that you described which the Eko modern man, and you had a whole paper that explores this archetype in Arnold Schwarzenegger, and how he was constructed to be an environmental hero so very briefly. Can you talk about the background? For how he became deliberately constructed to be this hero, and by whom and to whose benefit? In similar way, as I was kind of curious about this homogeneous group of men, and denying climate, change, Sweden two thousand night. I became curious about how could give be uplifted as environmental hero in Sweden by all countries, in which I thought that his background with them being, he had been accused of abuse against women he has been. Divorced and he has not been done on. Gender Equal Tiger. and. His environmental record has been very much so and so or longtime. Up on Taylor when he become governor I was very surprised that he be enrollment to hero in Sweden, so that was Wise, so it was. It did not fit with the image of an environmental hero Sweden for me, but I came to realize that he actually. had. Below ideas and values in practices connected to. Aim as personal politics from. Really prominent in the Swedish. Landscape as well and I would say dominant industry breath landscape. And that is the idea that you should handle emissions at the end of the pie so to speak, so you should. End of emissions when they get out of the smokestack or when they get out of the automobile. When they have been, the entity has been burned so. You should take care of the emissions gets kind of the problem there. The problem is fair. The problem is not before it's it's not. Dan Did you source it's our report comes out and. Since almost had ideas of solutions to this fuel cells. Hydrogen very much tied in to and in a similar way, was uplifting these kind of end pipe, technical solutions to problems that was also dominating switch political landscape in four more influence on what's being called ecological. Modernization as ideology what this focus on the emissions and technofix assists thus is that it also hide the need to change the systems behind those technical fixes so changing from natural gas of gas, in which is the biggest entity soul in California. To renewables or to not juicing, the much energy dole was hidden behind the solutions to technical solutions of fuel cells, hydrogen, and this is something. Way To approach many on the environmental problems that we are dealing with today. Is An approach that is very much on top of the political agenda in many countries around the world, Sweden included. So it was in some sense than a perfect fit in between a man who could. Promote a technical solution were in with no emissions from. Of the Automobile and With a country in which this this type of solutions were on top of the liturgical agenda as well so it was a perfect match. But a curious one. It was actually surprised to learn about Schwarzenegger's connection with the Hummer and it's sort of marketing ascendants. Because for me like it was perfect as you described how the two of them both symbolized strength and variety and also domination, because when I've driven in the highway before and I've Seen Hummers. There's a sense of intimidation i. feel like I'm going to be hit or I worry about the person who's behind the wheel, and what kind of sort of mindset they have if they're gonNA be prone to road rage. So so that I thought was perfect. You used the term which I want you to define how Arnold Schwarzenegger represented in his Eko modern masculinity. You represented the shift of hegemonic masculinity embedded in environmental policies. So, what is hegemonic masculinity? Yes so it's a concept term barbarian CONAN in the early nine, thousand nine hundred ninety S. basically, it is way to describe the dominant. Forms of being a man in a society, but hegemonic masculinity service a bit more complicated than that. In many ways, it's also. An ideal form that the striving towards, but in that sense it can also dominates ideas of what is the best. Way To behaving society and when I analyze this echo, modern masculinity are understood it as Shaef away from this industrial breadwinner masculinity in which you. Ignored or denied these environmental challenges like climate change for example, and you actually took them into account. But you continue to Ghana. On survey the the structures in which men. To be on. On top of the pyramid society structured so in that sense. I thought the change from one form of hegemonic masculinity industry breadwinner Juan. To this other ECO, modern masculinity, and we'll visible in the way in which almost snake. It was kind of uplifted. Estimate environmental hero, this was for Sweden and the I thought it also had kind of. Overflow in other countries as well during this period of time. I do think that way. The latest developments on the political landscape with Bolsonaro trum Scott hooting another's the industrial breadwinner masculinity march of being kind of come comeback. We don't know what will happen in a year or so or with the Kobe nineteen, but. Yeah maybe. It's another demonic masculinity right now than when I discussed. I just wanted to translate that for our listeners. The concept of hegemonic masculinity defines a certain type of masculinity and Patriarchal Order Social Gender. Order it also justifies it an gets everybody who's in that order invested in keeping it in place. which you say, that's accurate. Much Okay and so when you were talking about the Arnold Schwarzenegger F. C. H., fuel cell hydrogen being used as a mask. Why are we talking about emissions? Instead of talking about the production of fossil fuels that reminded me a framework that a lot of feminists have been. Debating about for several decades now very very prominently and I just covered this in a recent interview, which is commercial, sexual exploitation prostitution, the Nordic model or the equality model is about harm, prevention and people who are for using the term legitimising the term sex worker is about harm reduction, and so we think. Why do we need to have reduction? We could just prevented to begin with, and so was kind of hiding the real sort of Regressive ideas in a progressive light which you say that that's an accurate analogy. Yeah very much. So even the term of liberal feminists could be connected to this echo modern masculinity. In the similar way as Being, equal men and women in an oil company doesn't make or your company. Any more sustainable may be gender equal, but it doesn't change the system on the structure that this stock through for the hoses. We talked about the role of religion, and how that's used and protecting their men's desire to protect their economic status. As an indicator of power can you talk about the role of identity in constructing these forms of masculinity? At least for me, it was very obvious how much identity plays a role here. When the youth led a climate justice movement really got going in two thousand, eighteen in two, thousand and nineteen I know that the sunrise movement and other youth led movement Justice Movement in there in the US has been doing this for a long time and. I think. It became even more obvious in two, thousand, eighteen, two, thousand, nineteen, when they really became visible and. They also kind of pulled all this type industrial breadwinner masculinity. Telling them that you have known this for four years, but you haven't done anything or. You come to us for. You all the ones that actually need change in. Demand in this group became either they realized okay. I need to change. I need to do something I have the power or They turned very aggressively. Toward the youth led climate movement so in Sweden. We have seen threats against Greta to for softball president vets. But we have seen the. language that has been used against an. Leader seemed making the US I saw that as an example, think BBC they. Failed Him economic health line, and they screened that help line line for men who get offended by younger women who knows more than you do on a change and. This is really a an obvious example thing. Talking about wait, so you're saying that there was a it was like a parody about the climate change deniers. Okay, and how was that received? Just seen GONNA lofter's and are seem but I I don't know how it was received by those who were the target group. I don't know if. We have to check in. Read it to see. They're making nasty remarks behind you. I, just I got a couple of remains. are angry. Men I'm not targeted that much actually if I compare with my women colleagues not at all I. Think it's because I'm appear as a man and. A, yes, they have sent me emails as well and this is not unusual. Show have been studying the history of two prominent women energy politicians in Sweden and they had death threats. They had who sent him to them. One of them even had a small cottage on her garden. Burns down so it's a very common that women who are knowledgeable and are making statement within the area, energy and environment at threats it's. NOT CARSON! And who people might not remember s so much of an effeminate east, but actually. When she wrote this silence, bring some other books. She was also threatened by this cavalier home industrial bedouin. Males, so it's a patton. So you just in summary You you're. The research that you work on makes the connection between certain predictors of climate change. Denial, and that includes little orientation and identification like you, said belonging to a certain group of people and those people who tend to be deniers are white men who are weighing more likely to accept and justify in WANNA protect existing social structures and traditional lifestyles. How do we address it getting to the solutions that you offer if we know this? If we know that it's a cultural, mainly a cultural kind of motivation, what can we do as individuals and in terms of policy? One important aspect to really recognize, is that research. Now show that the youth led movement by Young Women Justice Movement has been really successful month lease. Man Talking to older men with more Bedouin Masculinity Industrial Bedouin masculinity they recognized. Today to talk to their children and to be able to have a connection even to their children they need to. Get knowledgeable about these issues so That's one thing being as straightforward as the youth fled from justice. Movement is being are with great food by others, its success story in the sense that they have. Actually been able to touch the hearts of the industrial breadwinner masculinity, so they should keep on doing what they're doing. Is Definitely they analysis of that? Then we have been working with an education in Sweden called ecological masculinity. We are conducted eucation, bring together groups of men around fifteen to twenty of them to talk about abuse against women and abuse against nature I they talk in. What's called a smaller room? It which they share experiences and Reactions to knowledge mail abuse to women in Male abuse towards nature, so they get questions like what you think when you hear about that, so and so many women are raped every year and from that little room. Then also go up to. What's called a bigger room? In which issues of geology in politics are discussed and we are doing this education in intro four hundred eight meetings with these men and we go through different. Questions all of these meetings. and. I think one key here is to have trust among a group of men. Issues of importance for them both in on individual level as well as on political level and this type of of settings we have known through mescaline studies on not so common for men, Nutley abdomen is not so used to not trained in talking about issues. That was really important for them. So this is also something that we can learn from and we can spread. We can use this talk of education in which men gather and talk about gone away. Important issues on the supervision of Alva Need Aurora. Pedagogic, untrained person then I also think we need to have that laws and norms change so norms are kind of laws, but laws that you don't get punished for as you know. In some sense, I think one interesting oil that has been pretty place in Sweden is law in which law about sexual consent but in plays in Sweden and I think that's extremely important and they're interesting. An. Of How you can actually think about consent in between two humans, but also may be, we could expand to think about consent. Woods nature. And they're all ideas about this type of consent towards in between humans in nature, and that is a movement called the rights of nature so in that. Kind of movement they WANNA live nature to have the rights not to be expected not to be abused the not to be polluted, so for example this river in new salen and our new we. and which now got the rights to thrive and derides to be clean, and then that is now governed by both and. Indigenous people and the goupil pocket the colonized of New Zealand. and. They have a kind of. A new top of governance form in which. At the rights of the. Protected and I can see overlaps here in which we understand, and that we recognize the rights and the intrinsic values of. Subjects and Sop tear can be both humans and non human subjects nothing the concept of consent is that is. Being. Put, to laws are. Interesting to think with intact with also. So there's a an American historian at George Washington. University, Ibrahim Candy he's author of stamped from the beginning a definitive guide of racism in America, and how to be an anti-racist amongst other books, and he addresses the concept of privilege in how people who are of a particular group. In this case, he talks about race so white folks in America, how because of policy that creates a system where they benefit from their privilege, they then continue to want to protect their privilege and maintain those policies, and he posits that education and love, and even the concept of empathy isn't enough that you really need to sort of start with the policy and then cultural change will follow. So what kind of policies do you think we can implement? Because a lot of what you've just suggested presupposes that the good in people, but the good also has a instinct for self-preservation, and so that tension is going to exist, unless there's policy that foreshadows that transformation that individual change. Very important The rights of this river in New Zealand that I talked about as A. Of over one hundred fifty years of struggles, so the indigenous people struggle for and this river to be understood as. Impact of their Listrik world, view and Is At least for me an example, some kind of struggle needs to come before you need to recognize with jewels. The did there. Regarding. Privilege in regarding on equal structures and and unequal societies in so many ways. It's very very true that you need to find ways also. On both understands that struggle for this Typo of rights is much needed, but also that the forms of those struggles you need to be strategic with and so that you don't strengthen system that you wanna change because I think that we can also see store Co. Exxon puzzle. That when you trying to change something, we'd some certain tools tactics. It only kind of strengthened the system that you WANNA change rules. For most of the world, we've been under lockdown for several weeks now, if not longer to undercover. And you would think that this would be an opportunity because some have said that it equalises the risk of people having infections or or being at risk of death from this disease, and yet we don't see an increase in I don't know if it's like activism, but amongst the target population that you're studying. Have you seen any change in their behavior or mindset or willingness to embrace policy around climate activism because of this global pandemic? Is. The continuation ended in the were quid. The so called new green deal. That is going to the European Parliament and there was A. Large petition. And with names from both industry researches them on a Titians and they energy in Memento. Ministers from quite many countries in Europe, put what the which said okay we need to. We need much more even more than ever to have a new green deed. In place in your, because what we're in right now is transformative weeks and months and years and we know that. Time of crisis was here before the nineteen and will be with US officer so I see that at least as an example, these issues coming together. Times were. Also what allowed of researchers at putting out? Kohl's for political action. The one that I saw latest was hundred. Seventy to think researches from the Netherlands that wanted to have strong policies regarding. Emission concentrate sinful suffused into ground, those kind of things and also famous UK economist Kate. Ray Worth who's been. She's famous for the doughnut economy. Amsterdam would not follow the lead of her research group when they would rebuild the economy for Amsterdam. That's not drexel, and then I do think also that we cannot come stat back from the fact that would stay. Economic Recession is also telling US beyond the the mission level scum down and the the is. Much editor in the bigger cities, it also showed the in the dependence on oil, and also had the politics of oil. It exposes actually the. Power connected to that think we that we can bring with us also so that we in some sense can know what we we can. How can handle this, but then also coming back to your question on polity and justice. I think even before the covid nineteen at least in Europe. It was a lot of discussion regarding just transition so kind of a fair transition and is also brings me back to the masculinity issues, because many of the people who run get unemployed in the large industries, and they're also few dependent industries are men, and they are men connected very much in industrial Bedouin Muscat. Entities and I think this is a group of men in need to be aware of and also to find ways to act deal with during these circumstances I think otherwise they will probably take to arms they will, if not take to arms, they will vote for leaders that will just destroy planets even more. So, we need to be aware of those maybe political consequences in the possibly selection acting on them. Right, and we didn't even in our conversation, we haven't even touched upon the connection between also fuel industry, obviously and militarism, and then those folks that you're. Talking about the industrial breadwinner and their proclivity towards being Zeno subject anti immigration, right, and so that that could I mean we saw today. Trump has closed all immigration to the US as one of his responses to covid nineteen, and so there are people who are in power or Their power even more so thank you so much. We've come to the point in our conversation where we ask every guest a series of questions that I call the engendered questionnaire that I've adapted from inside the actors studio. and. The first question is what is at stake in the struggle to end gender-based violence and oppression her planet. What gives you hope. The youth led Climate Justice Movement as well as those. Order man being affected by it. And final question, what can we do more of less of start or stop to end gender-based violence and oppression? Fossil fuels guard. We need to put in place lost a care for the planet. We need to create a norm snot. Least among men who take knowledge around the challenges were reveal as well as are willing to act. More wider broader and care for humans and humans like. Thank you so much, Martin. It's been a pleasure to have you on our show today. Thank you. Thanks for listening to this episode of engendered. The show is sponsored by Candu at QNA appear base knowledge platform that connects social service providers in advice, community and learning you can join can do at QNA for free at Q.. N. A. Dot K., A. N. D., U. I T. dot com. I'd love to get your feedback in here. Any questions or suggestions you may refer the show. Please email us at engendered podcast a gmail.com with your questions.

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Episode 120:  Susan Bordo on sex and femininity in politics and its intersection with sexism and misogyny

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Episode 120: Susan Bordo on sex and femininity in politics and its intersection with sexism and misogyny

"Either podcast listeners welcome to engendered the show that features stories explore the systems, practices and policies that enable gender based violence and oppression. And the solutions to end it? We use gender as a lens to understand power and oppression teach feminism and decolonize hearts and minds one story at a time. Gender sponsored by can't do it spelled K. A. N. D. Y. T. and I'm your host Terry you're in. On this episode of the engendered Podcast, our guest, a Susan Bordeaux, cultural historian Professor Emeritus Feminist and author of the book the destruction of Hillary Clinton and imagined Bernie Sanders. As woman we speak with Susan today about her work to deconstruct woman as a cultural category, its role in the two thousand sixteen election and what it means to be a woman today in public life our conversation explores the ways in which the same behaviors exhibited or embodied by men are treated differently by the media we observed them and women. How Society is complicit in reinforcing these cultural norms, double binds double standards and what it communicates to the girls and boys we raise. Welcome Susan. Hi Jared. Thank you so much for being on this show I mean I've been looking forward to talking to you for so long and it seems so apt that several of your books are just very timely in terms of the cultural conversation that we're having. It's interesting. Isn't it? Though they were at least one of them was written awhile ago nothing very much. Yeah I know and I actually read Imagine Bernie Sanders as a woman. I. But I think we should start with the destruction of Hillary Clinton and the ideas that were in there because from across a logical perspective, this was in response to obviously the two thousand sixteen election and you know, I, didn't really get a sense of what was the reception to this book I know that there were issues with the title but what was the reception initially and what has been the reception like now with the past three and a half years? It's really interesting this. This was the first book that I had ever written that did not get reviewed in the mainstream media at all the first stage of my career was really about the body and looking at the ways in which women's bodies are shaped by culture and at all that and I wrote a book about men and men's by these very well received by Angolan very wary seved Hilary Clinton book silence not a single mainstream. Your view nobody wanted to interview me on TV except for one rather disastrous. MSNBC. Afternoon interview. Which I can tell you but bad if you want in a minute but there was like it was almost as though not a paranoid person. You know I'm not when you've been a writer as long as I am you don't. Immediately think people are out to get you. Because you're used to to criticism, but it's total dead silence was really so startling to me and it was almost as though they were telling me my book justice they were telling Hillary Clinton go into the woods we don't want to hear from you. You know. At the turn of the book came out. And this was before so much was revealed about Russian interference and hacking at the box and people had begun to put together the influence of James Komi, the standard narrative was it was Hillary's fault. This is what you heard on media right after the election probably remember and you know she didn't go to the right states at the right. And this was a book that. That although of course. You know like any campaign Hillary's campaign made mistakes that impact was you know a perfect storm of external elements? Including the reception to her as a woman and a particular kind of woman that ultimately Sankar. Any one of them you call out any one of them, she might have few Scott three million. More votes. Donald Trump was a razor thin victory for him, but it was not the official narrative at the time. The official narrative at the time book came out exactly the same week as my book was shattered. which argued that hillary was it tire into her staff and she may disastrous mistakes in her campaign and thoroughly thoroughly fog blaming and go of o of the most incredible sexist descriptions about Hillary Barking on the telephone to to her now, you know this this despite the fact that it was nothing in this book about outside interference nothing about gop dirty tricks, nothing about comedy or the pumping up the email scandal it was all hillary's fault. It became the official narrative and I now thinking back on why there was such silence around my book I think one it was not considered to be fashionable to defend Hillary in any way I. Think people saw me as being a cut a surrogate for her and just as they resented her, they resented me for that and the time was just not receptive to it. You Know The Times. were. Not Receptive to it. Now, at this point now that we've discovered so much and we've also had to, we've also encounter some of the recycling of disdain kinds of rhetoric that was used against Hillary against Carmela and others of the candidates you would think that. Okay. Well, now now is the time that people recognize this book but in fact, it's it's sort of you know it's just. It's faded away. It's faded away and. It's it's always been a little bit of a puzzle to me. You know as to why? As to why that happened Um ny continues to happen but then again, Hillary continues to be blamed for everything. She does I mean she just cannot do anything right and that's What I analyze in the book right. So there's a kind of What's the with said symbol the or boras the snake that eats its own tail. You know insertive as though the media that has been so intense of for unconscious reasons and countries reasons. At creating a certain portrait of Hillary is negating the very criticism of it of itself. You know it's a very media critical book and I name names and I think probably in some way is There's been certain defensiveness on the part of you know the the mainstream media to the buck. I really job know exactly what happened you know I, found it somewhat bath wing it. So we had on our show. Have you seen the documentary the brainwashing of my dad? No I haven't highly recommended you with love love the filmmaker who's also based out of New York like myself and the work that she does she chronicles her father's growing dissent basically into Fox News Obsession. Right wing news obsession and how it changed his personality and demeanor, and that impacted the family and has relationships, and then I'm not going to give away what happens but he did get quote deprogrammed for the family in some ways. So there is hope you know even though the story was about her father, it was replete with examples and interviews with people from the right wing and media looking at the history of the way the media has set itself up in terms of regulations in deregulations to really monopolize cultural narrative around issues such as. Freedom rate and what it is to be a family, and so one of the things that wasn't so much examined in the math of the two, thousand, sixteen election I think there's a lot of emphasis on the immediate up until the election, the events up until then the immediate events but nothing looking back like thirty forty years since the women's movement and what this film The brainwashing of my dad does is looking at the way the media was established, and for example, how the right wing built this whole enterprise infrastructure around placing people in universities, creating tanks, funding professorships. Legitimate positions such as law, right of positions of influence. In culture where they have basically set up, I, think a system that is there to refute anything that women do including Hillary. And I don't remember what documentary I saw but she was talking about the right wing conspiracy and there was a documentary feminism that basically chronicle all of the ways in which the right wing has built up a narrative to refute anything that she has to say or do right and fund. No it's absolutely true I mean she was right on target about the right wing conspiracy at you absolutely on target however I think it's important to note that the lest was campaigning against her to, and I think without that confluence, there was a kind of joining together certain point during this election. The two, thousand, sixteen election, what the right was saying about her and what the left saying about her that was just you know a an almost insurmountable is set of ideas about Hillary. You know for for that for the left-wing contribution you know I heard critical of Bernie Sanders. For having branded her in certain ways. and. Then even after she got denomination, not being willing to let go of those brands that he was a neat because he was an idol among certain groups of people even when he very weakly endorsed her, it didn't really matter very much people still saw him as the rightful nominee and were unable to come over the way in Iraq. Obama was was nominated those of us who had supported Hillary immediately end you know Hillary's encouragement played great role in that immediately got on the bandwagon. Enthusiastic support for Obama that did not happen with Hillary didn't happen all instead Bernie Sanders was urging you know people to continue to make our revolution and all of the trips about Hillary that had been thrown out during the election. We're still very, very much alive. You just had a pylon an enormous pylon and I would remind those people who now want to see it as all about Russia that Russia got its ideas about who to focus on. You know what got them from home grown? Sources, right. It's sort of the united the sequences at a little bit like shopping. You know people are out there looking at what is going to be fashionable in songs and clothing Russia's sniffed out you know what was in our own domestic air and elevated enhanced as we say nowadays amplified it. When you talk about Bernie being on the left. I have to laugh because because I I, I don't know what what people would categorize me as probably just as an agitator, but I don't consider him to be on the left because of his misogyny and how he renders sexism and Misogyny and women's issues invisible and so to whatever extent that people support his policies, which for the most part I do give you don't send her women's issues, which is at the root of all the other policy issues that he cares about. Then I don't know how you can be a progressive. Yes problem is I with you completely, as you probably know from reading the book, but the problem was too many people didn't see that way. He defined progressives. You know this business back controlling the narrative that we're both too interested in either by would meant to be progressive and all of the the holes in his own politics were completely smooth you over also you know it. Sure. You remember this. It really was during that election a lot of the issues that since then have had a certain amount of purchase on politics and culture were really derided and they were derided by both Bernie and by trump as being playing the woman card. So. Anytime you is an issue that was feminist. You're playing the woman card. And so all of the things that what you're talking about in terms of Bernese failure to truly progressive by virtue of the fact that you know women's issues were completely negligible. was once for coach setting I mean we really had one in the book is I look at that a comparison between the discourse around women issues in two, thousand, twelve and two, thousand sixteen, and the fact is we went backwards. Went, backwards, in the people who lost elections because they said stupid things about reproduction and rate. You know you can remember that and that kind of stuff in two thousand sixteen with seen s out there playing the woman card and it was not surprising coming from trump but Bernie did it to Bernie. Did it too and so many people there's a great deal that the generations that are now politically active are adding to its going on now. But at that particular moment day their lack of understanding of of women's history and gender history and injure theory made them very vulnerable to the way sanders defined fence calling planned parenthood establishment. Up the whole a whole bit. When we talk about women and women's issues and the plane the Woman's Card. It reminds me of this dynamic where going back to Hillary like people who are in a domestic violence relationship when you're growing up in, it's abusive home, the children who are witnessing it often in their experience in their trauma, they respond by blaming the victim blaming the mother for not leaving or not protecting them. Yes. Yes and so I see in some ways similarities where we as a society, we're blaming her for not doing X.. Y. And Z. enough to visit states the emails, whatever it is, and at the same time trying to render invisible the structural issues, which is the woman card if you're going to bring it up that actually contributed to creating this response that has been going on for her for decades but since the beginning of time to keep women in subordinate positions. So we are being victimized for our response for not being strong in a oppressive situation, and yet when we call it out were not allowed to do so either. Yeah. It's a double bind I. Mean One of the sort of key. Concepts in the book is the concept of the double bond. You really can't win no matter which way you go. You have to be strong enough to demonstrate that you have the communists. To be up there with the boys. If you're to what gets interpreted as masculine right then this SORTA misogynist, you fear of the overwhelming mother, you mentioned the mother and I think this is really important piece of the reaction that some people had to Hillary. She became a screen onto which all kinds of projections about mothers got whether it was a husbands. Yeah. Ideas about his wife who wants to out the garbage every night then nagging wife. Or a generation of women who felt as though a new generation of women a younger generation who serve you know it was very hard for them to disentangle as it is for all of us. Their mothers politics from their mother as dominating figures in their own lives. So crews there comes a time when you know all of Spiel sort of like. Well, you know we have to separate from our mothers to a certain extent in order to be our own individuals, it's just normal developmental staff. And unfortunately for a generation and I'm generalizing here because it certainly wasn't the case with black women I, mean you really do need a whole different analysis away which black lemon responded to Hillary. But or you know the privileged by children of feminists, mothers right being the kind of that Hillary was not seen as entirely a progressive than. Because it was identified with their mothers and everything that mother carries with it a you mentioned the blaming of the mother. Sure for sure. This is a very, very common phenomenon. And this is his swimming of incident fury to me so much. You Know Bernie get seen as a kindly grandfather with the right politics. and which is incredibly attractive combination too young. You've got the Granddad but he's also a left politico. Whereas Hillary get seen as a dominate dominating uptight stiff, old second wave figure. We're constantly letting men off the hook whereas we do not let women off the hook for anything and this happened over and over and over again and in that campaign. Excuses were made. You know for Bernie excuses were made for trump Hillary never never and I think that that's you know when I think about you know my own daughter end years ago before she you know she's twenty one now know when she was. In her teenage years I was fault for 'em thin at anything that happened was my thought. You'd never blame her father now there's just this difference in the way we think of mothers and fathers, men and women that has infected our politics really deeply. So, you're speaking basically the cultural double standard especially, if it shows up in policy is very problematic but for many of our listeners, if they don't have a history of Hillary, could you speak to some of the double standards that she experience when she first came onto the national scene as first lady and the criticisms that she received with regard to her name and her appearance and all of that? Yeah. She. Hillary has has had this like I'm fortunate How should I put it? She always seems to come up against. Ever, the most reactive elements within the culture when it comes to gender. So inner. She's my Jenner's we're basically the same age Hillary age. She comes to her role of first lady having gone through the Women's movement having gone through the sort of bless. Of Our feelings out of the period in which we were told the most important thing in the world was to get married and to have children and couldn't be too aggressive and couldn't want too much at one's own career, and then that Kinda cracked open and for all of his Fox? Bill Clinton is not a man that was threatened by that and so she's in this egalitarian relationship. Now you know I'm putting aside the issue of you know the sexual imbalance and all of that was a better side in terms of her pursuing the career you as it was an egalitarian relationship and when she became first lady, she genuinely thought and he genuinely thought. People are just going to be thrilled to have a powerful woman at my side who will fight for things like health care and boy were they in for a rude shock and in Semisi, she had encountered as I the governor of Arkansas. When she didn't take his name and there was a great flap over that and inner she looked wrong you. She still had her hip you're with the frizzy a air and that. And certain peasant Laura Ashley Type Clothes which I award in those is to and. You know she when he lost his is rebid for governors she got herself binge shape university straighten your hair and she started to wear makeup and she took his last name and sure enough he was on social yet his taste of it. But by the time she got in the White House you know they were really quite naive in some ways about how her brains in her ambition would be received in the media has had this tendency not just hillary is certainly dominant me with Hillary to take a tiny little piece of what she says and to leave the context beyond I mean it's happened over and over and over again. And the cookies. Teary mark is an example of that. She was being questioned about her continued affiliation with the law firm that she was working for, and she replied I could I was could've stayed home in a cookies and had teas but I chose to go on with my career and then she went on to say. Men should be able to folks and all these choices should value. But of course that that context was not presented said, it was just the most inflammatory thing and it happened over and over again Loretta Lynn remark I could have been some. We'll woman standing by my man we read Lynn got angry at her because she thought she was being you know healy were saying she was just a little woman standing by her man when she was just quoting the song it's over and over and over again with Hillary Hillary gives herself over to working on healthcare. Really. You know in ways that now we are celebrating you know when? Bernie began to make universal healthcare a keynote of his progressivism people by forgotten that Hillary had fought for that and had been excoriated for it in some ways because you know she had yet to learn about the difficulties of dealing with with Congress in some ways because people just resented the fact that she was being given such a prominent role. In the book you use the term uppity describe her that not that she was a woman but the she was a certain kind of woman right and an uppity is also described in race. Exactly. This is a point that I think I'd really liked you make this point because too often we hear the term Sajjan just kind of like throwing around I think it's too broad stroke. I think that Tell about women hating across the board. were. Talking about retirement and anger and fear of a certain hind a woman you're a woman who has seen his stepping out of her place, a woman who is aspiring to high a woman who somehow has rejected. You know what we consider to be the proper way of being feminine and the one of the reasons I mean there are lots of reasons why you know block women did not have the same reaction to Hillary during that election and and still don't. But I think about that among the reasons was a very different perspective on strength and power and assertiveness in a woman and familiarity with how it feels to be described as being not in one place. Up. At, other women that resonated in a different way for black women who had been accused of that so often and who admired because requirement of being a black mother being a black woman, this culture, the kind of resilience and strength and ability to stand up for oneself that Hillary demonstrated. Was Seen by black women as a positive. Not s something that may do cringing and you know I think that we can talk a lot about the white women who betrayed Hillary you didn't vote for her I think that needs to be described a little more precisely I think we're talking about women who chose a certain path in life and saw Hillary's choices as validating. There's was sort of the reaction to the cookies and tea on a much broader scale that her interview decided that you're going to attach yourself to a husband. and sort of filled the domestic role and it's very becomes very you to not be identified with those women who seem to be leaning into far right. One of the ways I think that you can accomplish that this identification is through politics. So in a going understand, the sort of you know blanketing things in terms of you know white women, black women I think that when it comes to analysing the issues that face Hillary Clinton, you need a little bit more precision than that. Well, I want to challenge you on the use of the term precision with regard to describing misogyny as applying if I'm hearing you correctly only to people who are criticizing. kind of woman because those white women who are protecting their gender roles and those people who are not critical of women who stay within those boundaries they're experiencing internalized, sexism and misogyny. So it's just a different form where certain people get rewarded, but others get punished, but it's still stems from sexism and misogyny. Yeah I guess what I don't see how that's different from saying in other words whether is internalized or it comes from outside the image of the woman that is apparent right whether it's a see it within yourself or comes from outside is not just women in general. It's a women who don't north let's say normalize themselves as expected. So I went into agree with you at all I just you know I feel as though. Unless we get more exact about the sources of our misogyny that we continue to be Kinda clueless about it. You know, and that's what we saw with. You know twenty twenty at the primary in August things were being recycled over and over over again and people you know the. Extraordinary to those of us who have seen it happen historically to see God winner we going to really kicks this stuff apart you know Astor Hillary loss. You did not see one media panel talking about sexism in the election now what? I followed you very very closely You didn't see one and it really was only in the context of the more recent primaries that people started to talk about sexism but even then they didn't look back and apply to Hillary case. I think what you're saying just exposes like normalized these beliefs are. That even recently in our I've had multiple conversations in domestic violence advocacy circles, Post Cova, and since George Floyd and you know the black lives matter protests, there's been I would say almost universal adoption of anti-racism at least rhetoric and possibly policy in organizations, professional organizations, and in nonprofit spaces. Right. So there's lots of efforts now to implement anti-racism training initiatives, etc, and in these spaces because of my work with these victims advocates. I've been literally banging this drum by myself practically because I think partly because I'm one of the few people in the space who's not getting funded getting government funding. So there's no conflict of interest. But I'm always almost always the only person being the drum of Ken we. Have Anti Sexism Training, right? Yeah you if you're working for an organization that serving victims of domestic violence gender based violence and the name of your organization, let's say the city agency has the phrase gender-based violence. Why are we not interrogating the extent to which internalized sexism in sexism plays a role in how we are serving these clients it's like infuriating to me that nobody like people were just swishing me away from the space. Figuratively and I just I don't know what to do other than to keep repeating myself and our stations that I'm having. No I know exactly what you're talking back and at the same time you know people are pride themselves on being such intersection analysts. Will you know if you're truly intersection analysts that you got to talk about gender and the ways in which it modifies race and vice versa it's just a slogan until you start to do that but we do seem to have this i. mean I know exactly what you mean about the frustration 'cause I feel it all the time you know racism is a huge problem. There's no doubt about it. And one. Is Not what percentage choose between And analysis of racism in analysis of sexism. But there's a way in which sexism never gets interrogated in the same way. That are Analii we are beginning to interrogate race despite the fact that people have like for a long time there's been periods when women had begun to talk about it. You know there's been kind of bubbling up of consciousness, but always manages to get for us down under other issues. When I'm having these discussions, I always flip it to their race analogy to just sh- show how crazy it is that there's certain things that are normalized in one space and accepted and not in the other right. So for example, we're reading HOW TO BE AN anti-racist from candies book for Book, Club P. Talks about how you either racist or anti racist and I feel the same way with regard to sexism either sexist or to be anti-sexist to be pro feminist, right? So. If you're going to be anything as a woman as a man, whatever anti-feminism than you're basically calling yourself a sexist, that should be something that is just as stigmatized as racism because now in my perspective, sexism is the first uttering besides the historical cultural context. anthropologically, you learn about the first other through your family unit. You don't learn about race and class and disability necessarily until you've interacted with more people outside of your family unit and so to expect that people can adopt social justice approach towards equality that is only about race and not to interrogate it in their own personal relationships, which are a precursor to any kind of other thing. Is just myopic and I don't know what other. To say that's going to be acceptable in this conversation, but it's it's. Shortsighted, because we've also read that sexism and Misogyny is the gateway to white supremacy and so people wanting to address racism, you can't address it without addressing sexism. You can't. You can't and you know what you're saying reminds me of a connected topic, which is when we talk about the various kinds of sexist reactions to Hillary or Tacoma. Any other woman who is at the forefront what things that never gets talked about is the degree to which we are scared as a culture of feminism. Curry's it wasn't been hillary was a woman. She was a feminist woman. You know one of the things that one might say out the women who were running for office this time though they are clearly many of them are clearly feminist columnists feminist she didn't. Wear the banner the Way Hillary did and I think that AH people have come to feel that it's a you know it's an albatross around. A woman's neck to call herself. A feminist never seems to people as though being an anti-racist is obviously to the the right. We're just putting the right out of the conversation for now right because I think in fact that we have to always look to our own houses and I think that this is an acting the left really badly for quite a while and trump is sort of loss causes I. don't even consider that it's worth trying to convince them of anything. But if we just look inside our own backyards, it's not seen as an impediment within the left. This is why left because obviously, it's seen as an impediment from the right. For one to be a fighter for racial justice by air is something still sess fact about being too explicit and forthcoming about being a fighter for sexual justice and that's changed little just recently the you know it's it's I think that the nomination of someone like Kamla can do a hell of a law to move some of these ideas along because she is She's much more. Forthright about what she thinks she feels than usually doesn't play some of the I'm still a little girl games that other people might play Sushi may you know things may maybe inflex there but up until now I certain, it was an obstacle to a your feminism. And that's something that we really need to think about. Amaya how far have we come from sixty eight and seventies when they were caricatures of feminism feminists on the covers of magazines as ball busting Amazon's we haven't come that are from that much. I think part of what helps to sustain that narrative and to keep us from embracing feminism as much as this parallel. Effort for the past several decades right fifty, fifty years. Now, I guess on the right to control women's bodies, and so if there's still trying to control our bodies and our bodies don't belong to us and we don't have full person hood when we're pregnant and even of course, under the constitution, we don't we aren't recognized yet. Then it makes it easier for us to not have full person hood when it comes to expressing ourselves and of part of ourself is being a feminist and being an advocate. Then what's consistent that we can't part of being a woman is not being able to be free to say who you are and to express our in it's Sorta full capacity. I think that's part of it and I think too that feminism is seen much more than movements racial justice as wanting to tear down the fabric a heterosexual relations you know the the normal as family, the normal heterosexual families so that it is much more directly threat. To certain systemic structures and two male dominance than movements erasure justice I mean, there's a kind of. Fear of sharing power dare at sperry prime. Ah, it's very, very act. You're pointed out the starts in the family these things resonate with very early experiences that we have begun to sort of like tank apart and face. So I, think it is genuinely more threatening in a certain way. I could get to travel for saying that you know because it does seem as though racism is so much more widespread violence in its expression. Do think they represent a threat for sure air is something that you have to internalize a great deal of racial ideas in order to feel threatened. By the idea of sharing power but of blacks and whites sharing power whereas I think that when it comes to the sharing of power between men and women, you really have to internalized hell of a lot you just have to have grown up in this culture. It isn't as though you have to have grown up thinking manner. This women are that there's so much that you just sort of absorbed through the skin that then becomes a kind of. A step structure psychological that's ready to be awakened and react. Now I'm sure that there you know there are people who grew up and Zan way about race, but it's have grown up. Like in in situations in which which the reaction to black bodies is. So ingrained you know is so much in the air one burris that it's much akin to the reaction to two women. But it's almost as though or you need to do is be a man to have all of that going on. So here's my theory. I think this is something I just thought of, as you were speaking and you were trying to contrast the two. So one is I can't remember I've been to several talks by euro psychologists neuroscientists, and they've done studies around racism and how it's learned et Cetera and they've also shown in those studies that you can unlearn them so that increasing exposure to people of different races and cultures and ethnicities can actually reduce racial prejudice. But if you think about that, if that's the quote unquote antidote, well, how do we have an antidote to sexism because everybody when they grow up for the most part has exposure women so increasing exposure, you've already have exposure if you're a white family growing up in the south and you've been ingrained with Rhesus ideas from your family, but you have no exposure. Then of course, you're GONNA, you'RE GONNA be indoctrinated to believe a certain way, and then when you realize the reality is oh these. These myths are actually just missed. They were made up stories and you can unlearn them. But when you grow up in the society, you already have women unless you have like You know even if you don't have a woman in your immediate family as a parent maybe aunts teachers, you're always going to be exposed to women. Right right and there is no antidote to say, oh, let's expose you more and therefore you're gonna be like split sexist. You find out there people in other words. There's this sort of thing like if once you find out that this, the other is just a person just like you well, that doesn't really happen very easily with women, right? SAPPINGTON. Happens easily with any other but you know one thing that I've really been struck. By is how how you know in looking at how ideas about gay lesbian transsexual other different sources of sexualities gender identities that we've actually come left are there in that respect than we have in terms of ideas about gender about men and women and Cardigan reason for that I think is that that there is this blossoms a lot of the homophobia and transphobia blossoms in a situation in which one is isolated from actually knowing people. Will. The coming out of people has made so many people realize oh my gosh, you know aunt they actually it was a lesbian right and she's a person right or my daughter actually is transgender. Will you know some people might just run away and Harf from that but more often than not eventually one is going to see people that you're intimate with you know the learns this. Yes people it's GonNa wear down the other ideas. And you don't have the same thing happening. You don't have the same thing happening with women, which which we're just pointing out that the millionaire Yaragy doesn't seem to shake up ideas. And I'm thinking that part of the reason is because with racism you know when you're racist, you're protecting your power structure in the public space, the social space It's about protecting your power and enacting power you know in the workplace in how you access housing and get access to financial resources and jobs, and whatever all of these other things whereas sexism is about protecting your. Power in the home, and that's why it's so hard to address it because you might be able to give up some power in the workspace be anti-racist but if two if you want to give up your power in the home, let's like so fundamental to who you are in your definition of your relationship in your family unit or your your social network that it's too disruptive. Yeah and it reflects too much on your own sense of having successful identity is a man or a woman. You know it's no accident that you know Bill Clinton got the reputation for being a whim in people used to call him female feminine. Because he had, you know a white who was powerful and brainy and it gets out and who knows I mean maybe of airs word, you know a reaction to feeling somewhat intimidated either no. I don't know about their personal relationship. It gets at relationship just gets at our notions of you know who we are in a very fundamental way it takes more real work. I think on oneself in leaving aside the the political work of interchanging systems it takes more work on one steps I think than almost. Any other change in in in power relations these things are so deeply embedded use the phrase talking about other things triggering. There's so much triggering that goes on that were not in control of that. Just you see something you hear something and it sets off a chain of associations feelings that are very depre- in embedded in personal unconscious, and also in the collective unconscious emmy because we are talking about, you know centuries and centuries and centuries centuries of ideas that have come down through us in so many forms. To your point like the cultural shaping of women as liars, the Medusa as being hysterical. There's this mean that has been going around the Internet since Hillary's lost in two thousand sixteen people are willing to believe the worst myths about women and refuse to accept the worst fax about. Yeah. So my my therapists I always look at what's happening in the world in terms of the interpersonal dynamics that we kind of project into different spaces and her theory which I agree with is that we have so many people like white women who are supporting trump. In white people in general because he is the epitome of He's an abuser, he's a Predator, but he's like the father figure that's in their lives that reinforces the the religious narratives and the social positions that they have and to interrogate who donald trump is is to interrogate who their father is their pastor, their brother, and how even they may have raised their own sons. And themselves and themselves yes. It's always been my feeling that the popularity tram a lot of it comes from the fact that people feel like they're looking to mirror exactly and this person in the mirror has achieved enormous power. So voting for him, it's like voting for oneself so that even his worst gaps in a way become fodder for hero worship of him because you know when he can't speak you know he can put together an English sentence. You know we all make fun of that. But lots of people look at that think brow I had trouble with my words to and look where he got. So all the things that we cringe at not just the things that we find morally repugnant. Right, like the racism and the and the Homophobia and the sexism. But the things that are just deficits, his cognitive deficits which are so abundant to you know his. People. Find that appealing because they they feel like I've been kicked around for that all my life. But now this guy is showing that people like us make into the very top. So screw you you elite west and east coast liberals who know you think you know how to use the English language you need to know how to use the English language in order to get the top, not the way use it. So he is kind years kind of mirror and I think his crimes zero kind of not. Necessarily a people vote for him have committed the ours that he has but all of us have done things like naughty children and trapped and had shame over things that we've done that we knew were wrong. We've all wide and known was wrong ob done it and trump becomes a way of all of the things that have made him such an incompetent and dangerous leader are things that make people feel better about themselves and you know I think that's a piece of it that has not been talked about enough. I totally agree with you I at least I'm talking about it in my circles. So we can we can we start these conversations that maybe we can start planting the seed because when they started having the pictures Malania in her former quote unquote modeling days the rumors between trump and Vonda and all of those disturbing you know photos and descriptions of their behavior. You know I think to your point like the mirror is that they wished that he could. They could get away with what he's done and there is some level of fantasy like, oh, he allows them to play out their worst fantasies. Exactly. He becomes a kind of surrogate. You know when the building Bush tapes came out that were so horrifying you know and chill? Chill us to the bone was just a horrible horrible Michelle Obama. Gave that wonderful speech in this me to my soul a lot men were looking at that thinking go man I've been stifled from saying misstep all my life and here's where the figure of the castrating mother said to Hillary played into it. People like Hillary have showed you know a wad of cotton in my mouth over this all life and this guy saying yet go fritz who he becomes a kind of surrogate for you know the worst impulses in us and you know that's A. Pretty frightening. You know when you think of I mean not that we don't have sunny be frightened up without going there but what it means, what makes it so frightening is that it means that no amount of exposure of trump's deficits moral and otherwise will touch base you know. So it's my feeling that all of this you know a lot of Democrats have gotten upset about the the the RNC. Because East tried out to you know. Ridiculous kind of like show diversity. Absolutely absurd. He's struck some notes that we've worry if you have worried might get some of those who are sitting on the fence. I don't think anybody sitting on the fence. I think that you know Democrats are just forget about these. Trump followers forget them world. You know the people who know who trimmed is by now are either with them or not with them and Deke you really that we have to concentrate on is you know fighting voter suppression and generating enthusiasm or the Democratic nominee scouting a elected Appealing to the trump voter is just he can't do anything bad enough to alienate that he can't. So, what can we do to address the lack of censoring of gender in the Democratic side like nobody talked about the era? All these other issues that affect women. And they talked about equal pay all these other things but without something that really has teeth. None of these other laws we saw with Lilly ledbetter act is. Safe. Well, I think that ultimately the only way that some of the deeper stuff and by deeper stuff I don't mean things like equal pay for equal work i. mean things like choice for example, and things that sexual abuse that we have to win the election and get different judges in there I mean it's really you know it comes down to the. Fighting on that very, very pragmatic level in terms of having cultural conversations about it at all I honestly don't know what's going to do that because we seem to be so incapable of doing it. You know I speak as someone who is part of the second way is so had this experience in being part of a generation of women who raised these issues may be imperfectly but brought them to the center of conversation and then saw them just pushed to. The margins pushed to the margins over and over and over again you know, and then to experience the Hillary thing and feel there is so much sexism at work there and see how hungrily we have clung onto things like, oh, it was the Russians right which is to me is a way of avoiding our own participation in what happened to her it just feels so depressing, you know I just I, don't. So you know I think that we can count on. I. Think we think Count Liberal and left men. Doing certain things at the level of lawmaking that will be helpful I. Don't know that we're GonNa get to sort of consciousness raised. that. So many of us want until we have some really different cultural. I don't want use words like models because that. That's just so it's just it's a cliche end it's empty. But when kids grow up, we've got a generation of kids who are have completely different ideas about race. Than previous generations and again I'm excluding gas I'm. Excluding. The the over racist I'm nice reviews with benefited from systemic racism because that's all of us right. But be a generation of kids who just don't think about it or experience and sit in the same way previous generations did and part of that a good deal of that comes from having the cultural landscape. So different I, mean you know from things like opening a magazine or listening to records or I mean the world is now populated by admirable powerful, successful, black and Brown people that kids grow. Seeing, we don't have that yet at the level of gender and I think that there's going to be a day assuming that we don't destroy ourselves in the next few years, which is very possible is going to be a day when a Kamla. Harris is president and some of the double binds and the double standards that are so embedded are going to get worn down by virtue of US becoming accustomed to a whole different social landscape. I. Don't know that that's been happen but I think that's what has done. It in terms of race, it's what's done in terms sexuality. I mean these things were really really when I was growing a my God. You know the number of things that had to stay in the classes just extraordinary and it's very, very different. Now can that have with gender? It seems like gender has lagged behind strangely as that scenes because you know in. So many ways be movements for gender equality and raising of gender consciousness among the oldest social justice movements we have and that there's been a real lag. Well I think there's so many different. We're not going to get to this. In this conversation but there are so many different nuances of what people agree on in. We'll put in quotes the feminist community. So some feminists with regard to prostitution want to end demand for prostitution and consider people who are prostituted people were exploited, and then there are some quote feminists who believe that prostitutes are empowered and have agency and right you know need to be have the ability to make that decision as a profession. So I think that within the community, there's so many nuances that we to sort of be aligned with and part of that comes from. This concept that goes across all of the differences that we have within the community do we want to minimize harm or do we want to prevent them and those who are trying to minimize harm have adopted this mindset that we just have to capitulate to patriarchy there's certain structures are always going to exist, and we just have to manage within them and others like myself believe that we have to prevent harm than we can actually dismantle and look to the Racial Justice Movement for what they're doing to actually dismantle systemic structures. Yeah. Well, I know care right? I do think that we always have dessert of warring camps within feminism. I really liked to you know one of the things has served depressing to me in terms of the political milia is the rise of purity politics and the insistence that certain us if you hold certain us or if you say certain were Warhurst's. That you're excommunicated from the community. That's a recipe for disaster I think I think. That feminism can the different positions whatever you WanNa call me positions is to intellectual a word the different sides of feminism that you're talking about became coexistent work together, a lot better than you know has been allowed for because people want so much to feel as though they are justified and no-one else it is. You know this tremendous drive for self justification is just running and throughout our politics which. distresses me a great deal. But one thing that. I make this point. So often that I sometimes forget to make it my writing. So often I really do think bet in terms of conversations if sexism and Sexual Violence Misogyny, reproductive rights in a whole host of things, we have to put a lot more pressure on the media because the mainstream media. Sure. We see things on facebook pages and you know alternative obligations, but they really have to be constantly got nat- to have panels about these things. You know it's a panel out you know any number of these issues having to do with gender that you something bad It's it's a bugaboo of mine you know I think. Of the mass media as much more important people's lives than we realized we become. So Internet focused. We think it's like all the AAC accounts on facebook that are getting people to vote for the wrong people I be most people still do not have the time to be browsing around facebook and the Internet a year the news in the morning they gotta work maybe the here in the news at night when they come back from work, and so it's the sound bites on the headlines and the way immediate digests and presents things to us. There's still so powerful and I think that the media has been so responsible in perpetuate Really. Reductions. IDEAS ABOUT GENDER. Because everything gets condensed into the most sensational on soundbite and the staff at six, who's people Rodriguez new that you come up with the phrase you say over and over and over again and pretty soon, you will believe it. Yeah Yeah, I totally agree and I thank you for reminding us of that. This is a good segue to the closing of our conversation where we ask every guest, a series of questions call the engendered questionnaire what is at stake in the struggle to end gender based violence and oppression Everything, is at stake we can't have a just society into we overcome gender-based violence and oppression bottom line. No qualifications what gives you hope. My daughter my. And others and per generation give me hope because they do see the world in a fundamentally different way and you know this is tied to the idea of consciousness-raising. I. Don't agree with every change that's taken place some of it I see as shutting down consciousness but there's also kind of opening up a consciousness that's where the hope lies. That's where the hope lies. And I guess what I would wish is that future job would join hands more with those of us who represent the historical struggle incomplete, very, very powerful working together. But you know, I look at my daughter and I feel where is this like it makes his Jewish. Word fell, which means you just sort of you your heart just gets warm and starts bursts with. You know admiration for her. And our final question, what can we do more of less of start or stop to end gender-based violence and oppression? The big. It's a big. It's a big question. It's a big question. amused a huge problem it. You know I don't really know how to answer because I guess I feel is that all of us find ourselves in very particular concrete situations and we in those particular situations, we have different jobs to perform so that It may be writing for others it may be marching. Some of US may have to work more harder on our interpersonal relations before we can even move forward. There's people were. Have a particular role to play so it's the kind of you know, and this is my answer to an awful lot of questions like this that. I would have probably a different straightened for an answer for every person who asked me that depending upon where they're situated in life. Well I. think that's a very wise answer. Thank you so much Susan for joining me in this conversation it's been. Really Fun, I don't think we've solved any problems so unfortunately. We had of all the world's problems I did you too and it's lovely to have. Heard more about your where n come in contact with you outside with you facebook comments and boasts. Thanks for listening to this episode engendered. The show is sponsored by candidate QNA appear base knowledge platform that connects social service providers in advice community and learning. You can join can do it QNA for free at Q. N. A. Dot. K.. and. It DOT com. I'd love to get your feedback here. Any questions or suggestions you may have for the show. Please email us at engendered podcast a g mail dot com with your questions.

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32: "Satire in Strange Times" Week

Feedback with EarBuds

10:43 min | 6 months ago

32: "Satire in Strange Times" Week

"Hello Hi hi there. How's it going? Welcome to feedback with your buds. The podcast arm of ear buds. Podcast collective I'm your host and the founder of ear buds area Black this episode covers the week of May eleventh through fifteenth. Thank you to this week's podcast and newsletter. Sponsors mud sprout. The longshots podcast with conor Powell and the newest podcast from Lonzo Williams and Co how to talk to mommy and poppy about anything. More information on our sponsors later in the show ear buds. Podcast collective is listening movement. We sent an email every Sunday that contains a theme and five podcast episodes on that theme and each week's podcast picks are curated by a different person. Anyone can carry a list on this show. I'll share our five podcast episode recommendations of the week some information about our curator and some more information about the episodes. Then we'll also have some podcasts industry news from the inside podcasting newsletter. And we'll wrap it up with some sponsor information and Patriot. Shoutouts first up are ear. Buds podcast collective recommendations. This week's theme is satire. In strange times. The curator is Becka James. Here's why Becca chose the sleep. She says hello is Becka. James and the theme I chose is Satire Strange Times. I chose this theme because we're living in an exceptionally strange time and satire has the power to help process. What's happening and improve humanity by criticizing. Its Bali's and foibles. It will also allow us a hearty and necessary laugh. Here are the podcasts and episodes chosen by Becca along with short descriptions of each one first up is OPR's very fatal murder podcast. The episode chosen is the first ever of their first season in case you don't follow. Pr closely that acronym stands for onion public radio. It's from the onion. Expect very ridiculous levels of satire. Podcast made me laugh out loud. It is perfect the now times that we are in the next episode comes from a podcast called a woman smile and it's called a woman smile. Stylish it's thirty minutes long. Here's the description of the show. Women's smile is a podcast. Where Pattie Harrison and Laura Ramirez talk about well but especially the gentle and kind nature of a woman smile satire. Women are not gentle or kind. The next episode comes from a radio. Play called Lindsey. And it's called one God damn name. It's a fictional retelling of the story of the making of the parent trap and it is perfect. This first episode is mysterious and serious and will make you feel weird in a good way. Next up is an episode from a podcast. Called this Branchburg episode is called. Everybody wants to see my teeth. This podcast is about the fictional town of Branchburg New Jersey. In this episode. We meet Donald Franson who has a tying business. People come into the shop to have their ties tied each morning. And then what? I'll leave you on that cliffhanger. You must listen to learn the fate of Donald and the last recommendation comes from a podcast called bubble and is called hunters in this show. We meet Morgan. Who's pretty good at killing monsters? The narrator is topic. Evanston an actor and a writer who first came to the cultural consciousness at age twelve which she started a fashion magazine named rookie. The Morgan part satire. The taty stuff Israel. Why didn't you start a fashion magazine at twelve are the podcast and episodes recommended by Becca James this week for our theme Satire Strange Times? Hopefully these episodes will make you laugh a little and take your mind off. Reality Becca does satire. Thanks herself you can find out more and follow her on twitter at record flames. That's W. R. E. C. K. A. Flames each week in our newsletter which you can find and sign up for on our website ear buds podcast collective dot org are curator's have a chance to show off something that they love a project and nonprofit anything. Here's what BECO- wants us to know about. She says if you're looking for more podcast recommendations checkout vultures coverage where I write weekly comedy wrecks and long-form reviews and features also constant listener created by podcast obsessive and writer for the Av Club's pod mass. Ben Cannon is a great place to go for even more suggestions follow along with the discussion of this week's theme by using the Hashtag satire pods. Now it's time for podcast news each week on the show. We share PODCASTS. Industry News from the inside podcasting newsletter which is written by Sky Pillsbury. Here we go. I the inside podcasting. Podcast is back for season two. This is a show hosted by skype. Pillsbury where she interviews podcast creators about their craft in this coming season. Get excited to hear from Cara Swisher of Rico Decode Nigel poor and Alan Woods of ear. Hustle Moon Faces James Kim and so many more amazing creators next since this whole isolation situation started sky has been asking inside podcasting subscribers to share their experiences. She asks a question each week that you can reply to the email. This week's question is what's your favorite short run. Podcast series feel free to recommend standalone series like Dolly Parton America or a multi part series produced by a long-running. Podcast LIKE RADIO. Labs the other latiff you can send sky your answer along with a brief description of the series. The reason you enjoyed it your name the name of your podcast and the link to it if you have one send your answers to sky at inside dot com that's S. K. Y. at inside dot com and last congrats to the team at this American life for winning the first ever Pulitzer Prize for audio reporting for the recent episode called the out crowd. Make sure you check that out when you get a chance. Now it's time to thank our sponsors for their support with which we could not do what we do from week to week. I how to talk to mommy and poppy about everything. Now that we're spending so much more time with our families. Thanks to social. Distancing communication is key. A new weekly podcast. How to talk to mommy and poppy about anything wants to help. Adult Children of immigrant parents better handle those difficult but necessary conversations award winning producer. Julie Atlantic Will Williams interviews and adult who has a scenario to share and a relevant professional? Who can shed light on the situation and offer concrete steps for them and the rest of US catch how to talk to mommy and poppy about anything anywhere. You listen to podcasts. Next the long shots with conor Powell podcast history may be written by the winners but presidential politics is often shaped by the longshots hosted by veteran journalist. Conor Powell longshots profiles eight presidential candidates. Who Lost Their race for the White House but changed American politics. The better and for worse you WanNa know who gave trump the idea for a border wall or hear about the original free love feminist who ran for president in seventy two eighteen seventy to WANNA know how the Rainbow Coalition made a President Obama possible. Then listen to longshots available wherever you get your favorite podcasts. And last but not least is bus sprout. Buds sprout is the best podcast host in the game super easy create an host your show. The interface is beautiful and simple. I'll link to bus in the show notes so that you can check it out. Plus if you sign up with that link you get an Amazon Gift Card. Next is Patriot time. We'd like to thank our Patriots Supporters. Every single week. Eliza Coal Corey Dan Jared Lee Michael the rush network. Masha and Katie. Thank you so much for being loyal Patriot supporters. Especially during this time. Really really really appreciate it. You can also become patrons supporter to help. Support Your Butts head to Patriot dot com slash ear. Buds podcast collective. That's P. A. T. R. E. O. N. DOT COM slash ear buds podcast collective. You can contribute whatever dollar amount per month works. Frio really anything helps. Plus you get this shout at the end of every ear buds episode. What do we do with your contributions? Good question we use it to pay our editors Daniel and abby that is offered today we see podcasts. A lot on this show. We share the number of times at the bottom of each episode. And this week it was fifty four times which is pretty high. Had to our social media to find links to the episodes that we mentioned. We're on twitter at ear. Buds pod call and we're on instagram and facebook at ear. Buds podcast collective. You can sign up to receive our podcast recommendation. Email at ear buds podcast collective DOT ORG. It goes out every Sunday night. This show is written and produced by me. It's edited mix and designed by Daniel Turk. Our newsletter is edited by ABC Lansky. Our theme music is by Matt. Sweet Oh thank you for tuning in last week. We put out a call for reviews. When you leave reviews for podcasts. It lets the creators. Know what you like or maybe what you don't like about them. I'm recording this episode of feedback with ear. Buds on Friday may eighth. Did you know that every eighth of the month is Podcast Review Day? You can follow it on social media with the HASHTAG POD. Red Day this holiday. You're encouraged to take a minute to review at least one podcast that you've listened to take a moment to do that today when you got a chance. It'll still count for podcasts. Review Day and in the spirit of podcasts review day I watch read to reviews that feedback with your butts has gotten recently. Here's the first one. The title is incredibly informative and comes to us from Mickey loves you. It says love all the recommendations found my favorite podcasts. This way love that. Thank you Maki. And next this one is from. Ob heard and his titled So many great suggestions it says. This podcast packs a ton of awesome ideas into short digestible segments. I love hearing what the PODCAST universe gets other people pumped gone are the days of randomly searching through Apple. Top Ten lists for new podcasts. Thank you OBI heard for that. You can leave a review to and I'll read it out loud on next week's episode of feedback with your buds. Thank you in advance all right. Everybody have a great week. Listen to podcasts. And Stay Healthy. Happy Listening Goodbye.

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2020 New Hampshire Primary - Bernie Sanders's Win and Amy Klobuchar's "Klomentum" | Lakeith Stanfield (Rebroadcast)

The Daily Show with Trevor Noah: Ears Edition

25:22 min | 8 months ago

2020 New Hampshire Primary - Bernie Sanders's Win and Amy Klobuchar's "Klomentum" | Lakeith Stanfield (Rebroadcast)

"You'RE LISTENING TO COMEDY CENTRAL. Two Thousand Twenty from comedy central's World News Headquarters in New York. This is the daily show with Trevor Noah. Yours tuning coming out. Let's take a show. I'm Trevor Noah. Our guest tonight is one of the hardest working actors around you know him from Atlanta Knives Out. Get Out and the new movie. The photograph locate Stanfield is termites show. The Democratic Party is getting real. The titanic is in trouble and jussie. Smollet is making a sequel. So let's catch up on today's headlines. Let's kick it off with Jussie Smollet Empire Actor and Black Pinocchio a year ago. He told an incredible story about being jumped on the street. By to trump supporters. And now someone might finally go to jail for that attack the dramatic new turn. That's thrust the Jussie smollet case back into the spotlight. That's right. He's once again facing charges in Chicago for claiming he was the victim of a hate crime attack this morning. Small Lettuce facing six charges of disorderly conduct for lying to police the move a stunning reversal. After prosecutors dropped all sixteen charges the actor originally faced. In this new indictment the special prosecutor's office says small let made numerous false statements to Chicago police on multiple occasions reporting a heinous hate. Crime that he in fact knew had not occurred. Yes jussie smollet is back in the headlines. This time for being indicted over reporting a fake hate crime and it really sounds bad until you remember that his plan all along was to get a recurring storyline. That doesn't go away so he kinda wanted you know. This is what he wanted. And I know what Jesse did was wrong. But I won't let at the same time. I kind of feel bad for him because he gets into trouble now for calling and fake crimes but those permanent patties who made those Bush tonight on one. They live their lives. It is in fact. Maybe maybe that should be just as punishment he should be forced to get a white lady. Nickname should be everywhere. He goes people like well. Well well there goes subway SMA. Let's let's move on to Roger Stone trump campaign aide and the monopoly man's cocaine dealer this week he was about to be sentenced for lying to the FBI and threatening witnesses. But luckily he's got friends in oval places late tonight all four federal prosecutors on the Rogers Stone case of quit after the department undercut their recommended sentence. Just yesterday those career prosecutors recommended he gets seven to nine years behind bars but late tonight the DOJ in a filing calling the initial recommendation excessive and unwarranted. Just hours after president trump tweeted overnight blasting. The sentence prosecutors initially recommended as horrible and very unfair. The president denied. He had anything to do with it. You seem from your tweet today. The two are upset about the riverstone. Sentencing ridiculous did you ask the Justice Department because it just? I'd be able to do it if I wanted to have the absolute right to do it. I stay out of things to a degree. That people wouldn't believe that's right. That's right Istat on things out of everything. Intelligence Briefing Church Milanez Bedroom. Seattle was actually crazy. What happened here. The Justice Department's recommended Roger Stone. Get seven to nine years in prison. Right trump than tweets that their recommendation is too harsh. So they've been canceled their recommendation and then trump says he's totally staying out of it. That's not what he did he staying out of it the same way. The KOOL aid man stays out of a room door onell because he doesn't think trump is acting like his twitter account. Con Influence. The Justice Department like they can't see his tweets. Someone's saying I didn't ask her to marry me I just have. Will you marry me? Written in the Sky. Anybody could have said yes. Anybody and not only was it wrong for trump to get involved in his friend's case. It was also totally unnecessary. Because there's one person who looks like he can break out of prison his own. It's this guy. Finally you guys remember. How the titanic crashed. Well it happened again. A new report claims the wreck of the titanic was hit by a submarine last year with the. Us government kept it a secret. That's according to legal documents review by the British newspaper. The Telegraph says a thirty five million dollar underwater vehicle hit the titanic wreckage in July. It comes ahead of what could be a landmark court battle over the future of the wreckage. This is insane. The titanic was involved in another crash. Nationwide premiums totally going through the roof. Man I'm glad that no one was hurt because how would you explain that to people like Brian died in the titanic? Yeah this year this year. Yeah Titanic versus submarine is such a weird story. I mean technically. The Titanic is also submarine. Really any ship can be a submarine of your captain is Shitty enough. When you think about it you know what would be crazy though is if getting hit makes the titanic on sink like that could be a rule. If you crash you go down if you crash again you get to come up. Looks up to the top and then back up on the surface. Everything live iceberg. Shows up like well well. Who Did you learn Dan? Neff said all right. That's the headlines. Listen to our top stories yesterday. The second Democratic primary took place in New Hampshire the home of the White Mountains and the state that looks like Canada's but plug and the results may have changed the race for president in major ways. So let's take a look at the fallout in our ongoing segments would be coming out of the Iowa primary the big winners were Bernie Sanders Pete. Budaj and anyone who didn't build that Shitty APP and last night in New Hampshire those top two kept them momentum going with a win in New Hampshire Senator Bernie Sanders taking control as the Democratic Front runner but not too far behind him. He Buddha J. Despite winning the popular vote in both Iowa and New Hampshire Sanders is behind in the overall delegate race by two one of the other big winners Senator Amy Klobuchar who took third place. She capitalized on the moment by reintroducing herself to the country. Hello America. I'm Amy Clovis Shar and I will be Donald Trump. Yes last night may have been the best night for Bernie Sanders since he won that free cruise. Noah's Ark Bucks New Hampshire's biggest surprise. Was Amy Klobuchar. Who burst into the national spotlight with a third place. Finish and the timing couldn't be better for closure because in many ways you see. The presidential campaigns are like getting drunk at a party. You want to peek at the right time. See the other candidates. They had their surge last year. Which is too early. It's like getting wasted at six PM by the time the parties really going you puking in the bushes won't absorb Zari base myself. Brazil do veterans of guarantee. So there's no denying that New Hampshire was great for Amy Klobuchar campaign and it was also a great night for news. People who love wordplay Senator Amy Closure road the claw mental are you feeling? Clo- momentum is real and she has it Kloba surge flow mental Fomento club mental clovio charged. Clovio verge. They call a clue motion. Is there clemente him? Oh this is fun I WANNA TRY. I want to try. It's chlorine tie. Yeah yeah she gave them the old Kluber Dope. Yeah New Hampshire has an outbreak of PLO media. All right I'm done I'm done I'm done. She killed like Clo- J Simpson. Okay I'm done I'm done. I'm done no more. No more. No more. So for Bernie Budaj and Clover Sean. New Hampshire was a dream but unfortunately for some other big name candidates. It turned into a nightmare. Another major New Hampshire headline the candidates who fell far behind including longtime national front runner. Joe Biden and Senator Elizabeth. Warren both failed to get enough votes to earn any delegates before the race was called. Biden who placed fifth was on a plane to South Carolina which will hold the nation's next primary Biden saw the writing on the wall he had left even before the polls had closed live streaming into his campaign's New Hampshire Watch party. Oh Joe Biden left New Hampshire before the polls even closed fans leaving the game early. But you know it's bad when the team leaves early to beat the traffic. The coaches just like our guys. Screw the fourth quarter. Let's just start the bus? I also feel especially bad for Biden. Supporters say that I think about it. You came all the way out to see your candidate and then instead all you get is a video. Imagine you in the dentist chair and your doctor POPs up on the screen like Aloha from Hawaii here. Three simple steps to perform your own root canal so while Biden. Supporters wept frozen New Hampshire tears. The man himself was already in South Carolina looking toward the future. Joe Biden spent his night in South Carolina his campaign is staking survival on his strength with black voters. Our throw figure number ninety nine point nine percent. That's the percentage of African American voters who have not yet had a chance to vote in America up till now we haven't heard from the most committed constituency party the African American. That's right Joe. Biden's campaign has basically become a Medina movie. Black people don't turn up it's toast and even though he's desperate. Biden doesn't make a good point. It is a little weird you have to admit. It is a little weird that the story of the Democratic race has now been written by two states that aren't representative of the Democratic Party. I think about it too. Overwhelmingly white states shape who the Democratic nominee will be. Then that's long before minority. Voters have had their say. It's almost as if the Democratic Party is having a buffet but then white people get to pick them in you know and if you black that sucks 'cause you get you just like what the hell is they're raising everything man Broccoli Rob. So that's where the race stands off the two primaries Budaj and Bernie neck and neck and all the other candidates are hoping for a boost in Nevada and South Carolina. Now if you'll excuse me it's time for us to go away for a Clo- Marshall break we're back support for this podcast in the following message. Come from National Lampoon Radio Hour the podcast on spotify a brand new sketch show from national lampoon and a reboot of the iconic nineteen Seventies Radio. Sketch show where comedy legends like. Gilda Radner Bill. Murray and John Belushi got their start. National Lampoon Radio hour the podcast features sketches performed by the next wave of incredible. Comedians Colas Gola. Joe Firestone Rachel Pilgrim maeve Higgins Martner Bano Aaron Jackson Laura Ramirez Brett Davis Megan stelter and Alex English plus guest appearances from. Amy Sedaris. Rachel Chris gathered and more search for National Lampoon Radio. Hour the podcast on spotify in. Listen to the entire season for free. The New Hampshire primary gave life to Bernie Pete's and Amy Klobuchar while the New Hampshire. Give us it also takes away. The race is getting smaller. As of last night's results we did see the suspension or termination of presidential campaigns by Andrew. Yang and senator. Michael Bennet tonight is not going to be our night. But let me say this to New Hampshire. You may see me once again. You know I am the math guy and it is clear tonight from the numbers that we are not going to win this race. We'll be back soon in the meantime though thank you all God bless you and God bless United States of America. I'M NOT GONNA lie. I get white. Candidates always say they'll be back when they know they won't lose. But why not? Just be honest. You know why. I'll just be like New Hampshire. You guys are never going to see me again. This is the same problem with movie villains. You can only have fallen off a cliff building at the end of the show. You won't no you won't like it would be nice if honest just like you and your family are safe forever. But even though he's Gone Andrew Yang did leave a lasting impression on the two thousand twenty race. His plan for universal basic income made a big splash and even had an impact in the real world. You see he gave several families a thousand dollars a month for year to test out his plan and we send any change. Find out how it went yesterday. Andrew Yang dropped off the twenty twenty presidential race. And I'm a little sad about last year. I met him in person and there was just something about the guy that may be trusted not to mention. I really wanted that. Free Money Yours promising. Every American adult at the age of eighteen should get a thousand dollars a month free and clear from the government to do whatever they want making it ray. It's gone EUBOEA or universal basic income and although the dream died with Yanks campaign a few lucky families did get a thousand dollars a month for a year as a test program. Like the Fassi family of New Hampshire basically. He gave us a check for thousand dollars a month from January until December of two thousand. We went to his New Year's Eve party. And so that's how we got. Our first check was at midnight. Royal Check and give it to you physically and then after probably three months. He was getting really busy forgotten. Forgotten about us what he did he did. Palin TIME YEAH. It was very odd sending out a message like hey you owe us money so you guys will always my free money. We said it might much light nicer than that. Oh yeah so it was my free money so how did Chuck Jody Ball? Out With twelve thousand dollars. Did you buy a tesla? Snowmobile by Tesla. Snowmobile now I spent ninety percent of it on our daughter's college tuition college tuition. I guess that's pretty good. What else spent a little bit on groceries buying some healthier choices computer and some soil Yoga Yoga and Kabuchiko for shitting digestion? So No that. The money stopped. You must be pretty backed up right. Luckily Projects Colon. He was so inspired by his experience that he would the brew his own. Khumbu what is it? It's a big blob of bacteria that's been sitting in some entity in my bathroom for about six weeks. Bathroom juice aside. These people spend on college groceries and paying bills. What a bunch of idiots. It's like you never know what flexing means you guys could be in head to Toe Supreme Right now. You know what supreme is now. That's how you flex your neighbors and make them jealous. That's the monies for Chuck. Okay Jodi but believe it or not falling out is the last thing on most Americans minds half of American adults. They can't even cover an unexpected four hundred dollars expense. Clearly if you give people a thousand dollars a month they will spend on the city's with a few exceptions. What was your by Join Improv? Classes have been doing that for the last. You took Improv classes. Mindful Improv classes means. We do self appreciations we do vulnerability. It's taught by Yoga teacher. Oh my God anger. Yang may be out of the presidential race but his ideas live on an Americans deserve a shot at universal basic income. Well maybe not. All Americans lost my hand. I hit my guest. Tonight is an amazing actor. You know from get out. Sorry to bother you and uncut gems. His new movie is called the photograph. Please welcome Likud stanfield. The show. Beautiful grow the pitches of the screams. Unusually that high. Although I feel you're used to that before we get into this movie in particular. Is it safe to say that you are the least type cost actor in Hollywood? Because like if I think of all the movies that you're on with its uncut gems you know whether whether it's like get out get out like that was an extreme feats of acting because you're playing a black man who was a white man at one point who used to be a black man. That's powerful nominee. People can do that. Yeah well I appreciate it. I would hope I was These type casts actors. We we don't like that you want you want to be in as many different roles as possible. And that's something you've achieved do you. Purposefully choose your scripts like that. So you go. I'm going to go from one movie to another type. You don't just stay in one John kind of try to pick things that speak to me so as I grow the kind of things I'm attracted to in effect me kind of Sort of expand. Right yeah I just I just try and be closer to the things that that means something. And I've been very fortunate to be a part of a whole bunch of different kinds of projects. Not Not not many actors would take the chance of going into a ROM com. You know because it's it's it's it's it's scary when you've gone from drama comedy's difficult in a romantic comedies. In many ways people are saying you bring them back now. You know it's been like what fifteen years since we live through the golden age of black romantic comedies. Thin Line between love and hate with a you know like movies love and basketball etc. Are you seeing on screen to amazing actors? The people love it's yourself an ESA Is is that part of the reason. You chose the movie where you were like. Oh yeah this is. This is like for this generation that it was. I wanted to see a resurgence of dark skin level. Onscreen does a big part of it but the story was written very well and when I work with Easter I wanted to work with Stella and so everything fell into place in a nice way. You you've been called one of the mavericks of the Red Carpet just by people you know most people most of us. When we're on a red carpet we try and look like appropriate for the carpet like we were like stand up and do you. You have broken red carpet multiple times like you get there and you just do your own thing. You sat down. She just sat there at the Emmys and then I think there was another red carpet. Where Yeah you just came in right in a ski mosque right and then one of my favorites is that the joker per major showed up as you do. You don't take it you don't take it seriously at all. Reason just got to be comfortable Man Right. Do Things your way and you know you Gotta. Joy Yourself these the most important thing sometimes. It's a little bit too high strung and in stressful tried to appease everybody. So you've got to have fun and then one my legs were just tired. So I said the where your legs were tired like. Just from standing on it was a lot of interviews going up now. Let me take a seat record like that about you. Got This swag about you. We just like I was going to do my thing. You've got to go through stressful maker. Isa's in the movie. She's one of the funniest people both like scripted and off the cuff The two of you. Are you playing back and forth together? I've always wanted this when you're in a movie like this. Is there a point where you find yourself like by mistake falling in love you opposite? I've always genuinely. I've always wanted that like when you when you in a romantic movie with somebody. Yeah think you're trying to design connection. That will translate on camera so I think trying to get into a flow with the person that break down the barriers of What you don't know and instant tap into what you do know which is sort of universal spirit so that way when the cameras come on. There's a natural thing going on. So here's this report breaking down. The ice cracking jokes kicking back. You know what I mean relaxing and then when you get on screen. It looks like you guys have known each other you know. There's different ways that shipping editing. Getting but I think the main best way to do this this trust get in their trust fall go in naked emotionally so to speak. I've director to say about your acting specifically that what makes the Keith special is that you don't care about what you look like on screen you care about putting the character getting the character cross you. You've been asking since you were like what fourteen maybe even earlier in life witty. Where do you develop that front where you just wake up and go no? I'm I'm fully in this. I'm not look Ethan. This moment I'm fully this person and I don't care what I look like. I care what the person sees. I'm a little crazy but also I think it's You know first of all. It's it's appealing to the story. The story is the most important thing and the characters come secondary and I look like really ain't got nothing to do with nothing so just kind. Try to focus on the job and execute like that's a bit but if I need to be worried about what looked like were you know ends on what's necessary. Where where do you go from here? Because I mean you've been in I guess like a thriller slash you've been in an action. You've been surreal dark comedies. You've been in romantic comedies. Where is that something you want to do that? You haven't done. Is it like a dream project? You Have Yeah. I think my dream project is the one I have coming out It's an untitled. Fred Hampton project. A deal with shocker. King Daniel Clues Co Star and it's just a beautiful story. That's about this guy who really fought for our freedom and our love and our ability to to love and express the way we want to and those are the kinds of things. I want to be a part of talk about something and say something to me some when I got option to. That's what I WANNA do. So that's Marker Project. I'm excited to see you in this movie. I'm excited to see what you do for the rest of the career. I have money on you beating Samuel Jackson's record for the most movies you might. That'd be far. Thank you so much for being on the show. Great having you here. We'll be in February Fourteenth Valentine's the center the daily show with criminal ears addition watching the show weeknights at eleven ten central on comedy central and comedy central watchable episodes and videos at the daily show dot com follow us on facebook twitter and instagram and subscribe to the daily show on. Youtube exclusive content. And more this has been a comedy central podcast.

New Hampshire Joe Biden Amy Klobuchar Bernie Budaj Donald Trump Democratic Party America Andrew Yang Trevor Noah South Carolina Likud stanfield United States president Justice Department Senator Bernie Sanders Chicago Bernie Sanders Pete Jussie Smollet Empire Senator New Hampshire
I Dont Like Mondays - Brenda Spencer

Female Criminals

39:35 min | 1 year ago

I Dont Like Mondays - Brenda Spencer

"Have you had a chance to check out my new show not guilty yet? If you haven't you should give it a listen, it examines controversial criminal cases and tries to determine why solid evidence doesn't always lead to a conviction. It's the perfect podcast. If you like stories with twists and turns search for and subscribe to not guilty on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, and please don't forget to rate and review. Due to the graphic nature of this woman's crimes. Listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of murder violence towards children and child abuse that some people may find disturbing we advise extreme caution for children under the age of thirteen. At eight thirty AM on Monday, January twenty ninth nineteen seventy nine the students of Grover Cleveland elementary school in San Diego. California started lining up outside the building as usual their principal. Burton rag was due any minute to unlock the gate to let them in signaling the start of another school day. Then what sounded like firecrackers started popping off round them? Several children fell to the ground. The other students looked around in confusion. Not understanding what was happening then they began to panic scattering and running across the street. Sixteen year old Brenda Spencer was aiming a rifle out the front window of her house toward the school yard and repeatedly pulling the trigger before the shooting. Stop that day. Eight children and police officer suffered injuries principal rag. And a custodian Michael car were killed. When a reporter asked Brenda why she was shooting innocent, people her reply would become so ECOMOG it inspired a rock song. She said, I don't like Mondays this livens up the day. Kick a murderer against her a thief that you picture a woman, we didn't think so society associates men with dangerous crimes, but what happens when the perpetrator is female every Wednesday. We examined the psychology motivations and atrocities of female criminals. Hi, I'm Sammy ni-, and I'm Vanessa Richardson. And you're listening to female criminals on the par cast network this week begins. Our two part presentation on Brenda Spencer, whose nineteen seventy nine shooting spree. One Monday, January is considered the first mass school shooting to happen in modern United States history at park cast. We're grateful for you our listeners you allow us to do what we love let us know how we're doing reach out on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five star review wherever your list. Earning. It really does help. We also now have merchandise had depar- cast dot com slash merch. For more information. In today's episode will cover Brenda Spencer's, childhood. We'll talk about her family life, her few friendships, her interest in guns and her increasing disenchantment with authority figures will also discuss the events leading up to the morning of the shooting and the first moments of January twenty ninth nineteen Seventy-nine in part two will further explore the day of the shooting. Brenda's possible motivations and the aftermath of that fateful Monday. Brenda and Spencer was born on April. Third nineteen sixty two the third child of Wally dot Spencer shortly after her birth the family of five relocated to a fairly upscale suburb of San Diego called San Carlos Wally went to work as an audio visual technician at San Diego State university, while dot took classes to become an accountant brenda's parents appeared to have opposing personalities Wally was considered a shy softspoken man who was professional and steady at work, but not much interested in developing friendships outside the home in contrast dot was an extrovert. She ran her accounting business out of their house building a client list that included a local church the del mar fairgrounds and the university of San Diego bookstore. An avid golfer dot also worked for six months of each year as a bookkeeper for the Andy Williams, San Diego open. Tournament at Torrey Pines. She was also an active volunteer for the Gulf association. She even got the kids into golf, Brenda and her older siblings. Scott into research were all highly ranked in the San Diego junior Golf Association in nineteen seventy one at age nine Brenda competed in one of the top divisions in the annual national junior tournament. Brenda seemed to be very active athletic kid, also participating in softball soccer and bowling neighbors, recalled Brenda fearlessly sliding down hillsides on sleds made of cardboard or doing wheelies on her bike. She also loved animals and had many pets, including cats dogs rabbits turtles and even a snake. She often talked of wanting to become a veterinarian, but by nineteen seventy two when Brenda was ten things were unraveling while Ian dots. Marriage Wally had developed a drinking problem, though, only dot knew about it. He was also. Unfaithful to her according to dot, quote, he was fooling around with other women, and he came home one night and asked me if he could leave for a year if I let him come back. He'd already rented an apartment somewhere, and I just laughed and a few days later, I filed for divorce and quote during a bitter custody battle Scott and Theresa now teenagers said they would prefer to live with their father. Because the judge didn't wanna split up the children and was unaware of walis alcoholism ten year old Brenda was also sent to live with him dot stayed in the original home while Wally bought a house on lake. Atlas avenue a dozen blocks away the house was right across the street from Grover Cleveland elementary school, which Brenda attended until nineteen seventy four for the first couple of years after the divorce. Brenda was eager to visit. Her mother arriving before dot came home from work and crawling over the back fence to play with. The dogs dot had brenda's grandmother Ruth hoebel said Brenda would cry when she had to leave dots house after court ordered visitations were over, but eventually Brenda visited her mother less frequently in fact, during this time neighbors and family described Brenda as becoming a loner. Going to take over on the psychology here as well. As throughout the Assode. Please note that Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist, but she has done a lot of research for the show. Thank sammy. According to an article by the American college of pediatricians about the effects of divorce on children, a child of divorce may have weakened relationships with both parents who are just into their own losses as the custodial parent is less able to provide emotional support. And the absent parent spends less time with the child. Brenda's attorney Michael McGlynn described brenda's mother after the divorce as becoming quote, like a stone who never went out of her way to be with the kids or have a relationship with Brenda and quote children of divorced. Parents may also have more emotional distress and behavioral problems, according to a study published in the journal of family psychology children with divorced. Parents score significantly lower in psychological, adjustment social. Oh relations and self concept. Self concept is our perception of our behavior abilities and characteristics. It's closely tied to self esteem. The same study found that divorce can impact a child's academic development when Brenda was younger Sheeran. Good grades in school. But after her parents, divorced. She began to dislike school and her grades slipped. In addition to feeling the glutted by her mother Brenda began to suffer abuse at the hands of her father. Brenda said in later interviews that Wally would come home from work angry yelling and calling her names as well as hitting her in the face or the ribs. She also accused her father of molesting her Wally and Brenda shared a bedroom in the house on lake outlet avenue. And according to Brenda Abed as there wasn't much furniture in the house. It was actually a mattress on the floor. Brenda said that Wally touched her inappropriately and performed sodomy on her almost every night. There aren't any reports that Brenda informed. Anyone about the abuse? But her mother had her suspicions dot said. She could tell quote, by the way, Brenda would be acting very vase. If you asked her anything it just wasn't her. So I knew something was wrong. But she would never really tell me, and quote when her mother was asked by an interviewer if because of her suspicions she ever tried to fight for custody of Brenda dot replied that she couldn't afford to hire an attorney Dr Christine Courtois in her nineteen eighty eight book healing, the incest wound described victims of incest and child sexual abuse as often suffering, many long-term effects these include compulsive behaviors depression, suicidal feelings and abandonment issues during the same time period that Brenda claims she was being abused. Some described Brenda as being her father's favorite child seemingly in contrast. Her statements to outsiders, Brenda and her father appeared to have a close relationship. She would often stroke his hair in her book. Keepers of the children, Laura Ramirez says that victims of sexual abuse can feel guilt and shame because the act itself. The attention. The contact the fondling by an attentive parent may create sensations that make the child feel good because of this the child often ends up with a sense of self loathing and feelings of unworthiness if the abuse occurred as Brenda described it might have contributed to her later actions in nineteen seventy six when Brenda was fourteen. She suffered a serious bicycle accident. Running into a telephone pole and striking her head. According to her brother Stott after hitting the poll, Brenda blacked out and was woozy the next day unable to remember what happened dot described Brenda as seeming to be drunk and sleepy the next day. She told Brenda to have her father take her to the hospital while he didn't wanna do it. But Brenda sister Teresa said she would take her. Instead. However, it's not known if Theresa actually took Brenda to the doctor are not brenda's family said she seemed fine two or three days later, and they didn't notice any change in her behavior after the accident. However a few years after the accident Brenda was diagnosed with frontal lobe epilepsy. According to the mayo clinic frontal lobe epilepsy is a fairly common form of epilepsy. Where seizures originate in the front of the brain doctors theorized that brenda's bicycle accident caused an undiagnosed brain injury, which then led to frontal lobe epilepsy seizures from frontal lobe epilepsy. Often involve repetitive, motions such as bicycle pedaling or rocking. Head in. I movement to one side or abnormal body posturing like one, arm extending out while the other. Flexes, but as the seizures often occur during sleep. It's possible. No one noticed Brenda was exhibiting symptoms of the condition. Although her family said they didn't notice any changes in Brenda after her bicycle accident. It was around this time that Brenda started exhibiting less than ideal behavior, including her first run ins with the law. Up next will look deeper into what was happening in brenda's life as she started to act out in very troubling ways. This mom for the win moment is brought to you by the boots where the mother's day flowers. Your mom deserves our twenty percent off as a mom. I get it. Now, all that my mom did for me and list. Patients motherhood is a daily job twenty four seven with no pay unless you count hugs. But really moms are amazing for driving me to school. When I missed the bus always making my lunches for making sure I was in theater class because it helped me so much to be where I am now. And especially for loving me through my teen years, and I'm gonna show mom my appreciation with mother's day flowers from the boots. You know, the Buksh right? That's short for bouquets boots are picked fresh and delivered right to mom. So they last week's and not days. My mom is always loved tulips. And that's why I'm getting her the all the rage book, which is made up of rainbow colored tulips send the mom's day flowers. Your mom deserves from the boots order today. Day and get an extra twenty percent off when you enter female. That's B O U Q S dot com and enter female to save an extra twenty percent boots dot com. So I wanted to give you an update on how I'm doing on best fiends. Do you remember best fiends? It's the five star rated mobile puzzle game about the world of minutia, and it's cute courageous inhabitants. It's obviously getting a little harder. But it's also even more fun. I'm already up to level thirty seven icy shelves Howie brittle tantrum. And Joe Joe have all joined my team to help me defeat those slugs if you play every day as I do you can get daily gifts from the bug -als post office that will help you out best beans is free to download and you can play off line that makes it easy to play. When you're waiting for your coffee order riding the train or during commercial breaks of your favorite TV show with over ninety million downloads globally. Best fiends has thousands of fun puzzles to solve how many can you solve best fiends is a five star rated mobile game app. Available for download free on the apple app store and Google play solve thousands of. Fun puzzles and collect tons of cute characters that's friends without the our best fiends. Now back to the story. In nineteen seventy six fourteen year old Brenda Spencer suffered a head injury in a bicycle accident. Though, her family reported that she appeared fine after a few days, it's likely that the incident caused brain damage and led to frontal lobe epilepsy. According to brain injury advisor, Janet m Cromer brain injuries can sometimes cause profound changes in personality damage to specific areas of the brain, including the frontal lobe can impair executive functions. That's the complex group of skills. We use to plan make decisions problem solve make sound judgments and get along with others people with frontal, lobe, injuries may appear to develop aggression. However, in other cases, their behavior may be misunderstood as depression as they display antisocial tendencies, Brenda preferred to engage in activities that didn't require a lot of social contact such as photography or taking care of. Her pets. Many of our teachers remarked that Brenda was quiet and introverted. She didn't have many friends at school. Instead, she spent a great deal of time with her father Wally he was often as socially isolated as Brenda was one of their common. Pastimes was target shooting. Wally owned several guns, and he taught Brenda to shoot at an early age by all accounts. She really enjoyed it on weekends. The two would often visit walis friends, Tom and Jen minor to shoot guns on their property. The couple lived south of San Diego near the Mexican border in a tiny community called Potrero, it was desert country in the most extreme southwestern portion of San Diego County accessible only by dirt roads, Brenda her father, and Tom minor would venture deep into the desert and target shoot at cans and pieces of wood Brenda got to be a very good shot Susie Stewart one of. A few friends Brenda had but occasionally accompany them to portray Suzie said Brenda taught her how to handle a gun, and they would practice at her house. She called Brenda an excellent shot. She said that they also engaged in more typical activities like watching TV listening to music and swimming at the beach, but they eventually grew apart Suzy developed more of an interest in dating and guys and Brenda hadn't Susie said quote between the two of us. I was the leader. She's the follower type and quote possibly as a way to fit in Brenda would brag in front of her classmates. One student at Brenda school, Stewart, highs ING said Brenda was always talking about guns bragging about the guns. Her father had Theresa said. Her sister would also quote, brag about taking heavy drugs. But when she described their affects and what they looked like I knew she was not telling the truth and quote. Susie Stuart agreed that Brenda didn't do drugs except for sometimes smoking pot and even drinking a beer made her throw up this was confirmed by brenda's father who said she occasionally had one beer, but no more than that brenda's brother Scott described her as quote, a happy person though somewhat of a loner because she had so many interests. She spent much of her time taking care of her animals. She loved to read and write poetry, and quote, but Theresa reported that Brenda often wished she had more friends when Brenda was fourteen. She started spending more time with the boy who lived next door. Brent fleming. He was three years younger than Brenda and had a troubled family life, including rocky relationship with his mother and stepfather Theresa described him as a mixed up kid by all accounts. Their relationship was strictly platonic. But according to almost everyone who's interviewed Brent w-. Is considered destructive a troublemaker and was thought to be a bad influence on Brenda Tom minor said that Wally was at first kind to Brent and tried to help him out grant came to visit the miners portrayal with Wally and Brenda four five times. But Brent was a hard kid to help. Always. Tearing things up. Jan miner described. Brent as quote, a very forceful person for his age to be honest. I did not care for him very much and quote, similar to Susie. Stuart says to Mason Jan described Brenda as the follower in the relationship psychologist. Carl Picart describes this dynamic in his article adolescence and the dominating friend by saying if you don't wanna be directed by parents, but don't feel ready to independently direct yourself. There is an adolescent middleweigh establish a transitional dependence on dominating peer who will take the lead. While you follow along, Dr pick art. Says the window for domination relationship tends to be from early to mid adolescence ages nine through fifteen and Brenda who was still struggling with self esteem and a sense of self found that dominating peer in Brent brenda's brother, Scott, didn't mince words when it came to Brent Fleming. He said, quote, if there is a Satan brench form has been taken over just being in the same room with him as weird ano-. It sounds ridiculous. But he has a certain magnetism. I know he got Brendon trouble. And quote, the first indicator of this trouble came in nineteen seventy eight when Brenda was sixteen. She and Brent were caught shoplifting. Brenda insisted. She was only standing outside a store, and it was actually Brent who was caught attempting to shoplift. But when a thorn were called, and they took Brent out of the store as they passed Brenda Brent pointed to her and said, she's with me. On the other hand classmates said that Brenda bragged about this shoplifting incident and others seemingly proud of her running with police. So it's not clear whether Brenda was actually guilty or not Brenda soon. Had a second run in with police. Also in nineteen seventy eight Cleveland elementary school located across the street from her house was broken into and vandalized. Brent Fleming claimed he and Brenda were responsible, but Brenda denied her involvement. She said Brent approached her and asked her to come with him to see what he found the window to the elementary school had already been broken for zoom ably by Brent and the door was open. She admitted that she followed him inside. It's possible. She helped Brent in the vandalism. But the details of what was destroyed are not clear, it was rumored that several windows were shot out with a gun and that Brenda was the culprit. But this was later disproved Carol freeze A-Team. Age neighbor of brenda's identified Brenda and Brent to the police as the vandals who broke into the school, and they were arrested afterward the two held a grudge against Carol for ratting them out. Brenda was ordered to see a counselor to the county's youth services. Naureen Harmon who also served as a parole officer began to council Brenda in the summer of nineteen seventy eight grunt and Brenda would often hang out at her house and listened to records by rock groups, like the Beatles, kiss and fog hat, Brenda. Also loved Alice Cooper and constantly listen to his album killer, which featured the song dead babies. According to Brenda sister, Teresa, their father told Brenda not to hang out with Brent anymore after the two incidents with the law, but she ignored him continuing to see Brent. When Wally was away from the house, Wally said that he didn't like Brent's attitude. He would often comment that quote, pigs should. Die and quote hig was a common nineteen seventy slang term for the police. Brent's stepfather was a San Diego police officer and Brent's reported hatred for his stepfather as well as run ins with the law likely influenced his views about police in general soon. Brenda shared those anti thorn, -tarian views also referring to the police as pigs Wally said of their relationship, quote brand, of course, was affected by him. There were times when she indicated she disliked police officers, but Brenda was a lot of talk. I had no reason to associate such with any actual conduct and quote others. Also remembered Brenda spouting dislike for the police Susie Stewart said when she and Brenda watch television together, they both would root against the cops. According to Brent he and Brenda concocted elaborate plans detailing how they would kill a random police officer in one. They would approach a police officer in his patrol car at a public park and shoot the officer there or perhaps handcuff him and drag him to the restrooms and then kill him an alternate plan involved egging the officer's car or breaking his window to get the officer to chase after them. They would lure him into the park restrooms. And then Brenda would kill him with an axe Brent said, quote, Brenda, and I were always kind of planning things, but we never really carried them out. And quote, it was a great relief to Wally when Brenton his family moved north of San Diego to santee, California. In August, nineteen seventy eight though they still talk to casually on the phone. Wally felt like Brenda was less under Brent's influence with this distance. According to her father after Brent Fleming moved away. Brenda's general attitude improved in the fall of nineteen seventy eight she started her junior year at Patrick Henry high school her. Great started to improve. And she was particularly engaged in her photography class photography was another. Hobby that Brendan Wally shared in addition to target shooting. He often took Brenda to the zoo or up into the mountains to take pictures that fall Brenda entered a photo contest put on by the humane society and won the grand prize as well as two other prizes outwardly. She seemed to be doing well, but inwardly Brenda was spiraling into depression. Brenda's mother dot said of her mental state at the time quote. When around me, Brenda was not depressed. She seemed very content with life. I did not get the impression that she masked her feelings, but she evidently did and quote undescended twentieth. Nineteen seventy eight Brenda went to see. Her state appointed counselor Noreen Harmon, the details of what Brenda confided Noreen are unknown. What the counselor became so alarmed by Brenda state of mind that. She referred her to a psychiatrist Naureen feared Brenda might commit suicide. She described Brenda as unwilling to discuss any future plans or even acknowledge the future existed. She also noted brenda's lack of self esteem 'isolation from peers, and parents, sadly when Brendan met with the psychiatrist all they recommended at this time was for her to keep seeing her counselor Noreen brenda's parents were of course, informed about her fragile mental state, but dot preferred as usual to let her ex husband handle it. She never talked to Brenda about her problems or being suicidal and Wally as usual swept the issue under the rug. Neither parents seem to realize their daughter was a time bomb about to explode. Coming up. We'll follow the events that led to brenda's shooting spree. 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Twenty percent off their first order at pair of thieves dot com slash criminals. Get twenty percents off when you go to pair of thieves dot com slash criminals. It even works for guys. That's pair of these dot com slash criminals. You had the suspect's fingerprints at the crime scene. You have witnesses testifying that they saw the suspect commit the crime. The suspect has a motive it's an open and shut case. Or is it each week the Parkhouse original not guilty examines? Controversial criminal cases and tries to determine why solid evidence doesn't always lead to a conviction. You'll discover the ins and outs of how police I investigated case by working the scene of the crime taking witness statements following leads and identifying possible suspects, then you'll learn how the evidence collected actually plays out in the courtroom. And how the jury reaches their verdict. How should we determine a person's view? Do we defer to the evidence discovered by the police for the verdict? Reached by the jury and what happens when the evidence in the verdict don't lie. Up search warrant subscribe to not guilty on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Again, search not guilty or visit park cast dot com slash not guilty to listen now. Now back to the story in December of nineteen seventy eight sixteen year old Brenda Spencer was suffering from extreme depression, her counselor Noreen Harmon was so concerned for Brenda that she sent her to speak with a psychiatrist. However, this appointment didn't seem to improve her mental state her older siblings. Scott and Theresa were unaware of her emotional distress. They said Brenda appeared her usual self during Christmas and cooked Christmas dinner when the family and relatives got together incredibly despite her suicidal warning signs Wally gave Brenda a twenty two caliber rifle for Christmas that year, he might have been unaware of her severe depression, or even assumed that the gun would make her happier as target shooting was a hobby. She enjoyed so much dot said she hit the roof when she learned Wally gave their daughter rifle for Christmas. But her concerns were more about brenda's young age. Rather than her mental state. According to Teresa Brenda had begged their father for months to buy her a rifle. So he obliged her. But according to Brenda, quote, I had asked for a radio, and he bought me a gun. I felt like he wanted me to kill myself and quote in January nineteen Seventy-nine Wally and Brenda visited Tom and Jan miner portray oh to go target shooting in the desert Brenda brought along her new rifle, according to Tom minor, quote, Brendan knew more about her twenty two caliber rifle than I did. I think headed come unassembled. She would have been able to assemble it. She set the scope herself. She was a better shop in. I am. I am very good marksmen and quote. There was no mention of brenda's troubles the month before but Jan miner commented that brenda's behavior was Radic an extremely out of character. Brenda spoke at length about Alice Cooper and his song de. Babies. She also talked a lot about Carol freeze. The girl who told police she'd seen Brenda and Brent break the windows at Cleveland elementary even though the incident happened a year before Jan said Brenda seemed agitated an angry about it all over again, it made her wonder of Brenda might have been under the influence of drugs. According to her father, Wally Brent Fleming called Brenda several times during the week before the shooting possibly because he thought it would cheer up his depressed daughter Wally gave permission for Brent to visit Brenda on Saturday. January twenty seventh Brent made the hour long journey by bike to visit Brenda in San Diego. They listened to records a lot of the day, especially Alice Cooper's album, billion dollar babies. Wally said, he left the house between noon and one pm. And when he got back, Brenda and Brent were gone and didn't return until about two thirty pm about that. Same. Time on Saturday, Brendan Brent appeared on their bikes on the street across from Carol freezes house. They still held a grudge after she reported them to the police for breaking into Cleveland elementary. According to the freeze family, Brenda and Brent didn't say anything, but they stared at the freezes for a long time while the family washed their car, mowed their lawn and did gardening activties. The freezes believed, the two were playing mind games. So they ignored Brenda. And Brent Carol freeze said later that Brenda avoided her in school and never said anything derogatory to her the family also denied that any overt threats were made to them or to Carol in particular, still brenda's and Brent's actions on that Saturday could certainly be construed as trying to intimidate the family Brent revealed later that when he visited on Saturday January twenty seventh Brenda seemingly wanting to impress him told him she was going to do something really big. Big on Monday. He said, quote, we were always saying those kinds of things, but we never did it. I thought she might shoot some windows out with the twenty two her father bought her and quote, Wally said that Brent left to go back home on Saturday around three or three thirty pm Brenda stayed in her room listening to records until dinnertime won't. He said everything seemed normal the rest of the weekend, and that Brenda wasn't acting in an unusual manner on Sunday evening. Brenda asked Wally for the keys to his van some of her clothes were inside. Wally said, she came back in the house with her sweatshirt, some thermal pants and another shirt wadded up in her hands. She gave her father back the keys and went to bed that was likely when Brenda retrieved boxes of ammunition. That Wally kept in his van a total of about five hundred rounds of long shell twenty two caliber bullets the next day. Monday, January twenty ninth nineteen seventy. Nine Wally went to wake up Brenda for school and found her already dressed, but she complained of not feeling well saying she had stomach cramps and nausea for menstruating. This wasn't unusual. Most months starting two days before and continuing through much of her period. Brenda suffered from cramps so painful, she would spend hours in a hot bath tub just to endure them, she often stayed home from school at least one day because of the pain according to the center for young women's health, painful, periods or a condition called dismantle rea-. It's normal for women to feel mild discomfort and cramping during menstruation. But if the pain isn't relieved with over the counter medication or causes a person to miss school or other daily activities, it could mean, there's a more serious reason for the symptoms dot Spencer knew of her daughters, painful, periods and was aware Brenda stayed home from school because of them, but neither she nor Wally in. Indicated they had ever taken Brenda to see a doctor. Because of the issue Wally noted that Brenda looked sick and pale, and he said, she could stay home from school. He left for work around seven AM. We don't know exactly what Accu Brenda Spencer's time that morning between seven AM. And when she started shooting at eight thirty am Brenda claimed she spent that time drinking and taking drugs, but there was no evidence of drug use at the scene a quarter. Full pint bottle of southern comfort whiskey was found in the front of the house, but brenda's talk screen after her arrest was negative. She didn't have any alcohol or drugs in her system. Brenda's father had been on the wagon for a few years. So the whiskey didn't belong to him. No one could ever explain where the liquor came from. This would be only one of many questions regarding the case another question was why Brenda chose this day to do something really big as she had. Told Brent Fleming. According to Dr Alan Lipman, a clinical psychologist and director of the center for the study of violence. People who commit mass killings. Don't always just snap. He says quote, first of all there's a period of build up, then there's anger and hopelessness. And then finally there is the trigger something that causes them to go from just an angry person to being a killer, and quote, but what triggered Brenda Spencer to pick. This particular day is unclear except for her visit with Brent she was alone with her father the entire weekend before the shooting and Wally claimed things appeared normal, even though Brenda might not come across as having all the characteristics of typical mass shooter. She did share something with them. She was depressed and feeling hopeless. And she didn't feel anyone was listening. The biggest question, of course, is why why would Brenda Spencer a sixteen year old girl target? Elementary school children and the adults caring for them as the objects of mass murder as the clock crept closer to eight thirty AM and Cleveland Ella. Mentally school children started lining up outside the gate waiting for another Monday to begin Brenda Spencer rifle in hand was ready to address that question in her own tragic way. Thanks again for tuning into female, criminals. In next week's episode will discuss the timeline of the shooting spree and further explore what might have caused Brenda Spencer to commit such a violent act. We'll also follow up on what happened to Brenda and others involved in the events of that fateful day. You can find more episodes of female criminals as well as all of park casts. Other shows on apple podcast Spotify, Stitcher, Google play or your favorite podcast directory. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show the best way to help us to leave a five star review. And don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram at par cast and Twitter at par cast network. We'll see next time. Female criminals was created. By max Cutler is a production of Cutler media and as part of the park cast network. It is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler with sound design by Russell Nash production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Liebskind additional production assistance by Maggie admire and Freddie, Beckley female criminals is written by Kristen Kirby and star Sammy night and Vanessa Richardson. Don't forget to listen to my new show, not guilty. It explores how controversial criminal cases unfolded through the lens of both detectives and jurors be sure to search for and subscribe to not guilty on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts, and please don't forget to rate and review.

Noreen brenda Brenda Spencer Brenda dot San Carlos Wally Wally Brent Fleming Brenda Tom minor Brendan Brent Brenda Abed Brenda school Brenda state San Diego Wally dot Spencer Theresa Scott Spotify Brent Carol Vanessa Richardson frontal lobe epilepsy Grover Cleveland elementary sc
Understanding the Sex Trade with Sarah Jones and Alexi Ashe Meyers

Amy Schumer Presents: 3 Girls, 1 Keith

50:59 min | 7 months ago

Understanding the Sex Trade with Sarah Jones and Alexi Ashe Meyers

"Introducing the little John from Jimmy Johns a skinny mini version of any original sandwich for only three bucks. It's made with freaky fresh ingredients and I'm going to say it it's really cute. You'RE GONNA want to adopt it. Give it a name coordinates outfits and then eat it up. It's that cute. And it's that delicious order three dollar little John and Jimmy Johns dot com or with the Jimmy. John's APP available at participating locations this episode features graphic depictions of sexual abuse and violence discretion is advised. Do An hey greg talking about a Lotta Lovin. It's it's hey guys. This is kind of a special episode about an issue. I care a lot about the sex trade and sex trafficking in this episode. You're going to hear a few different conversations and I think they're all really important voices two here. Don't worry I'll be here to guide you through all of it welcomes three girls when Keith reach. What is going on over there? I'm so sorry you're holding your Mike. How gene wolters bottle just however I hold it somebody always comes over and fixes it so. I was trying to make it so they didn't have to do that. All right they could just fix it anyway. Welcome to three girls winky now no keith. This is the time of day. We're you start to get moody and start. Giving dirty looks to people. Are you planning on? Are you planning on continuing that tradition? Terrible it closely. Don't take it personally. That time of day I am. I'm so excited about our guest today heater. Anybody who's ever met me knows bridget. Everett is my favorite live performer. And I stand by that and I would say my second favorite no Keith. We're not even talking top one hundred. I would say my second. Favorite live performer. Is Sarah Jones? Who is here and she is with us today. Sarah is eight. Tony and obie award winning performer. Do you have an all being or a Tony? I don't have an ob. Oh come on. Why are we bringing up awards people loss anyway? Assembly don't FEEL SAFE. No not a safe environment and her current critically acclaimed show sell by date. Which is what I got to see. And it's amazing and it's an incredible hit show. Can you tell us a little bit about how sell by date came to be? Yes thank you for all of this. I'm blushing under my skin is brown so it's more Russet but I'm really blushing. Okay I started out doing characters performing as different people. So the voice you hear in sell-by date is so much more attractive than my own. And so I really if I could just go around like this all the time you guys do that. I've done it and it doesn't white welfare relationship isn't really I mean. It doesn't so confused I it is a one show and she tells the story through different characters but she completely transforms into with her voice. The whole point is that in the future is where this place set and this professor. Hallo me looking back on your era and frankly it doesn't go well but no the in all seriousness. The idea was to look at sex. What's called sex work? What I've learned. Many people call commercial sexual exploitation. Just wanted to kind of look at as many stories as I could from a lot of different perspectives. I WANNA say one thing. Which is I know that the the topic isn't automatically a knee slapping good time but I WANNA say. My whole goal was for people to leave the theater. Not Feeling like they wanted to slit their wrists. And you do that. It's a totally enjoyable show. And how can people find you and and see the show? They should find me at yes. I'm Sarah Jones on instagram. But the whole with an H. It's within eight. Yeah yes listen you go to find out. Get THEIR H. Hi My name is Lorraine I'm in the show because even though I'm an old lady I just wanted to encourage my husband to be a little more frisky. If you know what I mean I do think you and the next thing I knew I'm finding Garrett about some of the pornography with the things I saw strategy see normal couples writing love so many people together at one time out the whole voices into this. That aren't just what you'd expect. Iran China. It's your bubby. Everybody's touched by this. She loved is is she? Haitian or Jamaican Jamaica Domincan. Yeah tell me about her a little bit so she when we meet her she actually at a rally promoting the rights of sex workers and I want to be clear that my goal with the show for people to come and form their own opinions. I want to learn more about the agenda. Not Trying to tell you what I'm trying to show you what I know is happening. And she is their rallying and she's saying you know we want not justice no peace and then of course if you see the sign it says justice no peace. Pi But the point about that is that it seems like she's kind of happy go lucky and she's saying this is the only option. I have to make money in. That is the only option I have then back off me and stop trying to mess with my rights to do this work and then you find out a little bit later on that actually. She was coerced and forced to do that. So it's very complicated. Is it yet choice if something you must do to survive? Is that choice. I don't know you have to ask more questions about that. Ending up in that situation right right and then another one of my favorites is the character who you toward the end of the show. And what's her name? She saw this Her name is Anita. And I think it's very important for people to realize young grows especially like if you don't know somebody they will origin story. It could be a lack of Things that you don't understand so that's initial. Yeah and I love average songs very cute. It's interesting that you know the thing that like people don't stop and take the time to put themselves in different situations but you didn't you grow up with a diverse family. Right that's true. I think that's changing. I think more and more people have multicultural whether it's Manley's or neighborhoods or whatever but for me for sure. When I was growing there was no Obama to reference. I'm Natalie feel like the president of the United States also kind of in a little bit weird like I was just a little bit mixed and a little bit weird and it made me have empathy for people who didn't look like me so when you hear. The Jewish lady doesn't automatically conjure five foot. Eleven black girl for me. Those two things go together and I think also empathy for people from different class backgrounds. My family is like Whoa. You know middle class with working class roots and so I couldn't ever look and be like that burs lazy the person's on Welfare. I knew the backstory that like all the jobs had been removed from that person's neighborhood de-industrializing I always had a little more context. So I think when you apply that same lens to what's happening with you know the sex industry or the sex trade or commercial sexual exploitation and I WANNA be clear. I have friends who are dominatrix. Or they work in this area and they are conflicted about how to talk about. If they want to be protected they want to not be victimized and at the same time if we decriminalize it what happens like pimps can kind of walk away with the bag on this episode. Okay so along with talking to Sarah Jones this summer my friend. Alexi Ashe Myers stop by the podcast to inform us. The INS and outs of the sex trade. Let's listen to that conversation. Hi lexie Hi Alexi. Ashe aren't is my friend. And she's an attorney with sanctuary for families. New York's leading service provider and advocate for survivors of domestic violence sex trafficking and related forms of gender violence. Alexi Co chairs the New York state anti-trafficking coalition. And she's named one of New York's new abolitionists for her work anti traffic. I feel like a big piece of shit. Yeah just start you start saying stuff. I WANNA start confessing. GotTa take an online course or something. Yeah worthless edibles right now so you have started to educate me about sex trafficking over the last couple of years. Yeah so one. Huge misconception about trafficking is that you have to cross borders that you have to be chained in a basement but really you could be under control of a pimp who is born and raised in Brooklyn and your child was born and raised in Brooklyn and it still trafficking okay. Yeah that is a huge misconception. I didn't know that he's looks winking blinking Keith. Discussing cameras here and we do have evidence. No can we just go on and say like what are sort of instinct has always been about sex work and if we know where we stand on it so. I think you have the most experience comes. Oh well first of all my John Name was Harry. Skin off always looked at because I have a few friends that has ventured into that house ventured into being a sex worker. I guess and I always looked at as if you decriminalize it right and made it legal. You have a better hold on it. And he stopped pushing underground. 'cause you push it on the ground you push them closer to the temps and you know and it's just unsafe. I think a lot of people who feel that way and when you hear about Amsterdam the all the people get tested they you know and so. I think a lot of people have that same perspective. Yeah Yeah and girls feel the same way Dave saying where they feel like. You're in that making them see. It's not safe for him anymore. Because it's going to happen. What decriminalization in the world? Yes right at oldest exploitation no information and we live in a get your Rolodex of the number when you said the girls all feel this way. You're a rap for the prostitute. Garang John Name is it. Sounds like an old Jewish. Harry is vile. What are. What's your vibe about girls? Feel like this honestly. I have no information right and I know enough to know that I'm a wild more on whereas key thinks that he's a running a union for prostitutes is having meetings keep. It should be decriminalized but also there's like a a small percentage like some of my friends that are Trans. And that's that's sort of like really. They have a hard time finding work so they they sort of. It's like that's what they're kind of forced to do but yeah I also feel for these kids and especially when you're younger. I don't know where the line is but I know that a lot of people are really desperate. And that's how they make their money and so I want them to have that opportunity. I think that's a really common feeling is. Is that idea the decriminalization would be helpful can now can you please educate us and tell us what we don't know what that would mean. So I think that first of all in this country we really legislate for the people who need it. The most for the minority of people the most marginalized people the most vulnerable. Who Don't have a voice not for the very small percentage of people who are in the sex trade consensually and it is a really overwhelmingly small number of people who do consensually you know. It's it's a myth that decriminalizing sex trade empowers these women or you can put in safety checks. So The Netherlands wanted to legalize in order to control and regulate the employment of what they call sex workers. They thought this would protect the people in the sex trade that it would protect them from being coerced into prostitution that it would eliminate sex trafficking and that they could sever ties between organized crime and prostitution so those goals weren't met and they saw around two thousand three the city of Amsterdam saw that those goals were being method. The sex trade is run by organized crime and they started closing down their brothels in their red light districts in two thousand. Six A euro-poll investigation around that time revealed that. Dutch pimps and brothel owners were collaborating with traffickers to bring women into the country and those women are subject to extreme violence and murder. So the question of why. It didn't work well. One law enforcement when Regime is decriminalized has no incentive to investigate prostitution activities and to. They'd go in for brothel inspections you know talk to the women. But the women were guarded by a pimp who posing as a bodyguard or security guard. And so they weren't able to disclose the real conditions of their situation. And then there's there's the status quo which is full criminalization where everyone is criminalized interested. Is that what it is right now? Yeah so in. All fifty states minus a few counties in Nevada it's fully criminalized so every velocity. But then there's a third model which is what me and my advocates and all survivors. I work with every day support. And that's called the equality model. And that's keeping criminal the crimes of Patronizing prostitution and promoting prostitution and pimping brothelkeeping sex tourism and decriminalize prostitution for the people who are bought and sold in the sex trade. Whether it's Women Girls Trans Community members there decriminalized they're not arrested and instead they're offered robust services and housing and job skills and economic empowerment. What a robust services so anything from legal medical gynecological psychological. We're trying to move New York at least and hopefully other states follow to a model in which those services are offered through community outreach and community members is this this this is happening right now. This City Council Speaker Cory. Johnson is has allocated funding for this. He's a huge supporter of the equality. Model he's running for mayor in New York. Yeah Oh cool yeah. He supports this vision of this service center. Where can people go a being trafficked right? Now are being sanctuary for families. The Polaris Project Calm I cell phone. Thank you everybody you know. I look at Like a lot of the Asian Once hold on just saying the massage fouls as his power and they all around New York open to like five four. Whatever in the morning and they're like no but I'm saying whatever I'm saying I'm saying is that any of that fall under you know can do these. Asian women were definitely being traffic. Absolutely it help some. Don't even speak. There's a lot of a lot of resources in New York. The New York Asians Women's center women kind make the road so like the police must know like police. No but in the last two years. There's been a huge shift from arresting these women to just two arresting the sex buyers and the and the Johns exploiters and the women in Harry should be arrested for a decade Robinson. Definitely something would about like strippers all day fall in it. So it's helpful to to define with this. Extra is and the sex trade includes stripping Brothel Keeping Street Gang Internet and hotel based prostitution and pornography. That's all part of the sex trade. It's a system of oppression. It's built on violence and abuse. It's really decriminalizing legalizing. The substrate is white privilege at its worst. It's protecting white men with power AK Epstein Over the loss Over over the lives of women and girls of color and other minority populations that's who winds up being the most discuss alum. Maybe crazy by what now. What about Dominatrix? Now I'm saying 'cause that's big too and it is a lot of dungeons and Pity finger on the pulse of what's happening. He says he's walking tour of your favorite to clear his conscience. He's just going through. Everything is seeing if anything's okay. What services you're really thinking about the individual and not the collective being of a society so if you think about on an individual level and it's really it really. Is this neoliberal Lens. That many people WANNA see the sex trade through its women in a free market who are empowered to modify themselves. But it's it's not that we have to look at it through the collective lens of the wellbeing of our society and and US secretary really just thrives off of poverty. Inequity and the questions you should be asking are not about how much it's my birthday people. Profiting off of. This industry are rich way. Yeah it's this whole podcast is about Keith search history. That's right. That's our producer. Kevin Kane Helpful. People get like a large percentage. These people like young vulnerable girls at maybe get swept by like emotionally manipulative person. Or is it like literally like people getting like shipped in from somewhere? You know what I mean. It's both but it's really what I saw and worked with in Brooklyn was the former it was this is sort of before social media but Exploiter talked about that. He'd go up to a group of girls in a mall and say you're so pretty in the girl who like looked down and said no. I'm not that was his victim Now that happens on social media they'll send out one hundred instagram messages to girls in the same same sort of way and I say girls because it is a lot of girls but it's all there's also boys in the sex trade. There's also trans women so I don't mean to exclude anyone. Can you give us some personal stories like legally like? Is there anybody you can change their name or whatever? Because you know we can. We can picture what this sounds like. You know when you hear so a case that I had and this is actually representative of of many cases that I've had clients that I've worked with is a young girl. She's about fifteen at the time. Who's in a foster home She had one biological sister who lived with her and it was her younger sister who noticed and alerted the foster mother that every night in the middle of the night no matter what time no matter how tired a cell phone rings and her sister answers it gets up washes. Her face goes out the door and leaves and she's home in the morning by the time everyone needs to be up and go to school. Yeah and it's months of this and it terrifies the little sister and so she talks to the foster mom. This is a case of a really amazing foster mom who brings it right to the police and and it really comes down to How vulnerable she was at the time and able to be exploited by someone who didn't use force or violence in the beginning but offered sort of a boyfriend role or seduced her into this is how it often starts protector role. Yeah and she was bonded to him through. Something called trauma bonding and she wasn't ready to let go of this bond followed. We followed her for a while. We didn't contact with her foster mom. We tried to talk to her that she wasn't ready yet for services or for help or you know for any involvement with the criminal justice system. I don't know where she is today but I think about her. So that's just one of many stories. I could tell that one just sticks in my head as I want to share this story from Becca. She's a survivor leader. That I work with in Texas so let me play that clip. My name is Becka Charleston. And I'm from Dallas Texas. I grew up in a very American family. I'm the youngest of six kids by parents have been married fifty six years coming this January and I was going to church. Maybe like many of you but I had a couple of significant events that happened in my young childhood that led me to realize maybe our family wasn't like everyone else's and was that my oldest brother committed suicide when I was five years old and it was getting bullied at school and and my first sexual encounter was actually being raped at the age of fourteen at a church lock in. I had a lot of problems with my parents. I I hid the rate for everyone. I never told anyone. And and that's a lot for a young girl to keep bottled up inside of her chest and so at the age of fifteen I started coping with drugs. I just wanted to be non. Didn't WanNa feel the pain that I was feeling in life so I decided to move out of my parent's house at the age of sixteen. That you know my parents were terrified. They thought I was going to die. And so they actually signed over their parental rights of the employees Vienna institution in East Texas thinking that that would save me but to me. It was the ultimate form of betrayal abandonment and rejection by them. And so I did everything I could to work program and when I got a chance Iran and I never looked back and so I just started living homeless on the street. Basically Couch surfing stealing food in order to eat every single day and one day I met this guy who seemed really nice and he offered me a place to live and told me he had drugs. I could years and it was great at first the first say we got high all day and it wasn't until the next day when the that evening later that second evening and I found myself in the back seat of the car on the track and Harry on Harry Hines Boulevard in Dallas Texas. A track is unknown area prostitution and I was being told exactly how to ask people to have sex with me and exactly how much money I had to charge them. And it was like my entire world upside down on top fifty. That should have been a sophomore in high school in here. I was being forced into a world of prostitution. All I knew as Iran. I'd probably get raped and murdered chopped up in little tiny pieces and so I stayed and I obeyed them at one point. I thought it was getting away a couple months later Iraq Iran when I had a chance and unfortunately I ran into the arms of another man who in turn around and abuse me. And it's all over the you know he was thirty seven. He was twenty years older than me and he abused me. Manipulated me from day one but it really felt like loves and during that time. I was sold on every avenue of prostitution across the country of America. I was sold obviously on the street as a young girl that went to being sold in in private. Suites Annan villas and flown on private jets across the country and that also includes the legal avenues and Nevada at actually one of the reasons that I sued the state of Nevada to try to end legalize prostitution which unfortunately the judge dismissed the case. But we're about the appeal it. I can't tell you how many times I have been raped at a too many times to count. How many times I I mean I've been robbed at gunpoint. I'd been strangled with guns to my head. How many times I've been fistfights with grown men trying to run out of hotel rooms with my life because they wanted to get angry that they experience was over too fast for them you know are how many times. I sound guns hotel rooms. And how many women? I know that have been murdered by the people that buy our by their traffickers and it doesn't matter whether you're there by force or by circumstance it's still a horrific life experience. I think for me when I finally ran after ten years of being in the life of being exploited I left with a million dollars of debt in my name. I had repossessed a car my trafficker put in my name. A foreclosed home. My criminal record was extensive. I was a high school dropout. I only got my Ted because the federal prison made me and so it was like what was I running here. I wound up serving thirteen months in federal prison. Because I was terrified. The talent my trafficker and the beginning to the end of it all was getting pregnant. I called my family here in Texas and I said Hey I need help. And they offered me a free place to stay in so January seventh. At three thousand twelve I moved back to the state of taxes. And got on Medicaid and food stamps and Essentially sceptre my parents couch and that's a really hard thing to do especially when you know how much money has passed through your hands. And so since that time I've graduated summa cum laude got my bachelor's degree criminal justice I also went back and got my master's degree in criminology. Criminal Justice and I Have Become Nationally recognized survivor leader training tens of thousands of law enforcement at social workers across the country but it took a community of support to get me to this place. Wow I I'm really grateful for you sharing that with us. I don't really know what to say except for thank you so I want to ask you if if you had like ninety seconds to speak to someone or maybe a politician. What would your message be to them? I think I talk about the harms of sex buying and that many people say that work inflating human trafficking and quote Unquote Sex. Work that you can have a safe sex trade and also control draft gang and I just say you can't so the sex trade really operates like any other market with economic incentives if you decriminalize sex trade you increase the demand for the buyers. The buyers are the economic engine of the whole industry. If there were we removed any impediments buying sex the demand would rise and you'd have to fill that demand with supply and who feels that supply? There's the very minority one percent of people in the sex trade consensually and when they no longer can fill that supply that's trafficking occurs so this argument that decriminalization would curtail trafficking is just east disproved by that simple economic model more. Brothels more people to fill the brothels and bridget. You brought up earlier a lot of the Trans Community who goes into the sex trade. Because it's it's their best choice but it's it's the same answer if we want to address that we need you social policy Not Not Mark Incentives not condemn them to be sex slaves but rather to create job opportunities and social socialize childcare and more than just a more equal society all around right so they have meaningful options. Tough yeah if I was like such a complex issue. It's really complex. It's really nuanced women. I know who work in the sex trade. They prefer to be called sex workers. Yeah but you're saying that's a misnomer. What is like sort of like what's so it's an? It's a misnomer to to me into the community. I work with someone who who calls himself. A sex worker has every right to and that's how they perceive their experience and their work and I don't want to take that away from them but for the people that work with every day this extra doesn't include any sort of work it's not the image of engaging in the secretary to put your way through college or law school and there's no fancy dinners. It's not like empowered sex are women wielding leather whips. It's not there's nothing about it. That's empowering so they they think of themselves survivors or victims. I mean there's not a great like concise word other than people in prostitution okay mom or prostituted person because it's something that's happened to them. Yeah I want to ask a really dumb question boy. What do you think of Law and order. Svu No. It's the lamest answer I've never seen it so lame of me if it was good or bad for. Thank you know as when I was a prosecutor is that it really messes with juries who go into a rape trial and think like there will be fibers on the carpet and there will be like in sex crimes cases. There's no evidence there's victims testimony was experienced it as more pro prosecution like watching Svu. I'm just like I'm out looking for rape eyeing everybody but you also think it's easier to do it because go in and they're like. Why aren't there surveillance? Footage is from the right now. They complete morons because they think they're all their own scientists right and there isn't a there's just going to be some sort of like late. They can put on Dole. Just see every yeah cargo tae chase anyone down an alley toge- shit though. She's all about the rape kits untested rape kits. We could build a hookah beautiful homeless shelter with how there are and how end so because decriminalization in New York is like such a big topic right now and I think a lot of people think it's either decriminalizing it or not. How probable is that the equality model could possibly? I'm into play. I'm really hopeful for it. I think that for people who aren't quite ready to fully decriminalize sex straight and unleash metoo nightmare on our city but aren't happy with the status. Quo. I think it offers a really solid alternative. It's also the only model it's so so far. It was pioneered Sweden. It was formerly known as the Nordic model. It's been adopted by seven other countries in my house. And it's the only model that has consistently shown to reduce instances of violence and abuse. Yeah no you're you're you're right and I definitely Keith. Hi One of those one of those liberal people who thought like that. I was kind of cool that I thought SEX WORK SHOULD BE LEGAL. But honestly after hearing what you're saying and you know the real hard facts and the truth about it. I it's clear to me but I like the equal rights model false equality model guys the purpose. Let's get the purpose of today. I'm a reformed sex buyer. Okay okay guys. So that was Alexi. She is a bad ass clearly. So here's what happened. We ended up invading. Alexi back to the podcast along with Sarah Jones. Yes the two of them together but also I brought in a group of incredible women who work in advocacy to share their experiences. I had been to a panel where all these women's spoke and they were really inspiring and informative and I couldn't miss the opportunity to have them on the show as well. Okay so we've got three girls and one Keith. We've got Alexi WE'VE GOT SARAH. We've got four panelists and that may sound like a true cluster. Fuck but seriously. Don't worry just listen to what they're saying. I am hoping that anyone who listens to this will come away from the podcast feeling way more informed and hopefully we'll pass on that information okay. So here's Alexi and all the rest of us. You guys have heard me talk about stitch fix. It's a personal styling. Service that delivers closed shoes and accessories. Chosen four you buy a real stylist. You can try on at home. Keep what you love and send back the rest. Well turns out they can help out the men in your life too like your husband or boyfriend or both whether they just hate shopping or somehow have an entire closetful of the same. Twelve t-shirts stitch. Fix has got him covered. They'll have a stylus and great hand selected pieces right to his door and it totally takes the hassle out of shopping which everyone loves stitch fix offers styling for everyone including the guys go to stitch fix dot com to sign up today. This episode of three girls one Keith is brought to you by the l Word Generation Q a bold new series for a bold new generation get wrapped up in the lives of a fun and Fabulous Group of Friends as they experienced success setback sex and of course drama all in Los Angeles this fears crew is doing it all from confidently starting new relationships to taking on the Patriarchy and running for public office can you say gay rights. The elmore generation q starts streaming December eighth only on showtime. Hey Alexis okay. So we're so excited that you're back so I was lucky enough to go to this panel last week that was about the sex trade and I was so impressed and I felt so educated when I left there that I really didn't want to take any chances with this episode and I asked some of the people from the panel to come and join us on the show to to follow up. You can't have this conversation with survivor. Voices SO I. I'm going to introduce my colleague and friend and Matheson who's a clinical social worker with sanctuary for families and runs a Justice and empowerment program for teens. I WANNA point out first and foremost so the equality model recognizes that prostitution is a form of severe gender-based violence. So it sees this issue through that. Lens talk about that a little bit. The reason that we see it through that framework is because any individual who is exploited in the commercial sex industry whether they identify as a sex worker as victim of human trafficking. Or they don't use any of that language at all. They are still dealing with the severe psychological and medical ramifications of being bought over and over again for sex by strangers multiple times a day multiple days a week multiple weeks a year and those repercussions include Genital injuries rectal. Prolapse internal injuries burns stab wounds head injuries. Traumatic brain injury is a high Has a high prevalence amongst people in the commercial sex industry because sex buyers and pimps will often slam their heads against car doors and windows and walls so this is a form of violence that is primarily target against women and by primarily. You mean almost entirely exclusively and so can you. Can you tell us a little bit? About the countries that have found success with the equality so the equality model was first introduced by Sweden and the model specifically decriminalizes people who are on sold in the industry. And so what they saw happen was that there was a dramatic shift in the country where folks initially had been ambivalent about the law. They didn't want the law and then after implementation after there is a significant amount of education. They saw the number of sex buyers. Half in the other really important thing is that they focused on. This is what we need to do. Instead is to provide robust social services medical services to people who are exploited in this industry and so they created these three comprehensive centers in major cities so that anyone in the industry could access indefinitely services for free. And it's something that actually were pioneering now in New York City. It's going to be launching in a couple of months of a similar model. That was inspired by the Swedish units. What are the centers? The power center the empower clinic. That's cool because one of the points that you you brought up. I think Alexi at the panel was that if you decriminalize prostitution then then you aren't seen as a victim anymore. So those resources for if you're in a consensual employment. You're you don't need help you. It's illegal job so those resources might go away. The Empire Clinic doesn't discriminate on whether you find yourself in the sex trade as a quote unquote sex worker or whether you're traffic there you need the same services you want the services and they're offered right Lee Introduce Mel. Yeah so I've also have with me my good friend Melanie Thompson. She's a survivor. She's a fierce advocate. And we've been working on different legislative actions for years now that I'll have to do with trafficking So yeah I the you know to to the point of some you know. Some people feeling like well. This is the job. I'm in until only making make money like they don't. They don't see themselves as victims. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah absolutely so what we find. Is that this idea of sex work. Well I I say sex's neither I say sex isn't working. Work is not sex so a lot of times you might come across somebody who identifies as a consensual quote unquote sex worker. But because they haven't fully grasped or understood the complexities of their trauma. When you grasp this idea that prostitution is a system. That thrives on other oppresses dems thing. You're fully understand that you can't make a quote unquote choice in an industry that literally thrives on misogyny patriarch in capitalism and more to Ann's point gender-based violence. So in my case I was I was twelve years old when I was traffic and I had at the time but then once my pimp went to jail I also continued in in this lifestyle thereafter. So I've seen both sides of what is like to be exploited under a pimp and then would like to claim quote unquote concentre agency. And what I found is that the trump was also the same sex buyers. Don't care whether or not you have a pimp or not and sex buying still happens regardless of whether you claim yourself a victim a trafficking survivor prostitution survivor. Whatever have you what I did realize for me at sixteen. I realized that I was I was going back into prostitution under this guys that I made up in my head that nobody can hurt me anymore because now I'm setting my terms and I'm charging certain amount like I get to choose when I shut the door when I cut ads off or whatever because I had to tell myself that I'm now in control but the more and more that I was bought. Pamper no pimp. I still felt the same shitty as way. Excuse my friend Jim potty go no no no this is the discussing but so. I need people to to and I want to emphasize that because so many people that are that are screaming. Sex Work is work in like our rights and our agency in our choice. It's not necessarily about that when the same individuals were shouting that all suffer from marginalization and are still coming from the same communities that I've come from and how did you get out. That's a fun question So I was arrested when I was thirteen Cops SUCK by the way I don't. I don't bank police either Keith. Also doesn't care for police so when we have that in common but I was arrested and Mistreated by the police belongs to a whole. `nother podcast right there okay And then was put into the foster care system so thereafter I went through a couple of juvenile detentions and then ended up advocating a fourteen but in the midst bouncing around from foster home to foster home. So it's kind of where I'm at. Can I ask a question I wanted to just because it helped me so much to hear activists and people who really understand this issue talk about PTSD associated with you know war and actually from what I understand many or most people in the industry have PTSD rates as high as actual veterans of wars. I don't think people understand that. The medication approved that nobody gets out of this without having logical damage. I always say you can take you can always you can take the person out of prostitution. But you can't take prostitution out the person if that makes sense because the trauma that we face in life is something that stays with you. Lifelong so granted. I've been out for some years now and I've been advocating for some years now but there are still times. I'll do it's awkward panel and then freeze and break down there. Sometimes that I walk into a room and somebody in the audience looks like a sex buyer that once had it looks like someone who had a gun to my head and it will it will cause like anxiety and things like that this is how this translates and this is something that unfortunately. I have to do for the rest of my life and there was a woman in the audience the other night. Who because you guys spoke a little bit about people not knowing they were traffic and this woman have been trafficked at Thirteen? And she didn't know until she was well in her forties like even understand that she'd been trafficked. And Yeah it's like we think traffic like you think somebody like snuck you on a bus from you know that like he or something. Queen. Yeah talk a little bit about trafficking in the definition of that. So I'm going to introduce Yasmine Vafa. She's the CO founder and executive director of rights for girls which is a human rights organization working to end gender-based violence and sex trafficking in the United States. Yasmin can you give us sort of overview of what human trafficking is and how it's linked to the sex trade? A lot of folks don't realize that in the United States. The vast majority of sex trafficking victims are in fact american-born we're talking over eighty percent disproportionately black and brown youth. Disproportionately Girls Gender non-conforming Youth of Color from foster care kids with you know childhood histories of sexual abuse can't talk about it without looking at our histories deeply entrenched racial gender violence. You know this is colonial. This say it goes back to Thomas Jefferson. Yeah yeah even before before that. And this is Laura Ramirez Program Coordinator at the Coalition Against Trafficking in women in my Transnational FEMINIST organizing. We're not talking about America. Only we're talking about all of our homelands so in the panel. I was mentioning my people's own history right so my family's from the Caribbean islands and back in the Caribbean islands. The native indigenous tribe were called the Taino Indians. We were a matriarchal society. We worshipped goddesses. Women would fight and be involved politically right alongside men so when the colonizer On our lands the very first thing he did was seller woman. So that's what my advocacy is about and. I think that we need to remember where we're coming from when we have this conversation. Because I mean especially you know politically nowadays. If you don't know your history your damn to repeated adding to that real quick I mean. We work with a lot of native women all over the country and a lot of indigenous women. Tell us that. There is no word for prostitution in their mother language because it was invented by white colonial settlers. It didn't exist as a concept. So this notion that it's the oldest profession like that's an insult to so many of our cultures to so many of our sisters so when people talk about as empowering today you know we really have to look at the history and understand it as part of a long standing legacy of racial long standing tradition of you know it's like you know it's going to take awhile for the culture to catch up just because it's been so pounded in our heads by the people who are profiting off of this to feel that way to think that way. An an you mentioned. I think that it's that's the idea of consent like giving money like you just have complete rights to that person's body in whatever you want because you slap one hundred dollar bill down on the dresser that that's supposed to make it okay that you raped someone I mean. I think it's the biggest success of the sex industry that we primarily talk about the people who bought and sold and we debate over and over like how much choice they had or didn't have I mean who are the people that are buying and the people that are pimping and the people that are trafficking. And why aren't we talking about the choices that they have people need to realize that and as a result you know we would encourage folks to understand the equality model. Isn't just something we're coming up with here. It is the prevailing global progressive policy. Approach this issue. Number of countries have adopted it and the results speak for themselves like a quick example. Sweden adopted in one thousand nine hundred nine. Sweden has Do you double the population of New Zealand. That's the only country that's adopted full. Decriminalization and one woman in prostitution has died the entire time in Sweden and it was at the hands of her partner not expire whereas dozens of women in prostitution have been killed at the hands of sex buyers and pimps in New Zealand so those numbers for speak for themselves the first countries to have adopted the equality model Sweden Norway Iceland are consistently ranked in the top five for gender equality right. The cultures have shifted their so. We know it works and we think this cultural shift is something. That's critical for so long. You know all these things that we've become so normalized it's like they're these things that for years. It was like. Don't make a problem if this happens to you if you if you heard if somebody rapes you whatever keep it cool be be cool but the guys like you. You know you likable by the guy. Don't and so we've been you know the people who are actively trying to change the culture a little in these things and now people aren't are up in our sin and this stuff is becoming unacceptable and this just has to be the next thing talking about the experience of survivors. Were not going out there and pushing survivors. Who aren't ready to speak about their experiences. In front of microphones and re traumatizing them. And say hey talk about the thing. That's was worst in your life. The most exploitative humiliating thing that you're still dealing with and the PTSD and the trauma you can barely get out of bed but here talk about it. So the voices out there are going to be disproportionate. You know. I am a white woman. I do have privilege and I do have resources and and I'm not here talking for myself. I'm talking for those voices. Who Need me to buy them? Can I say one thing one thing? We can't wait for everybody knows that temps come in. Fourteen year olds fifteen year old. Six Year olds a lot of people of broken. So how do we get reach not only The the prostitute and also so one of the characters in an sale by day is a reformed and remorseful pimp tar motivational speakers. And My name's cookie and You know I can talk to you about that offline I you know I was in foster care myself. I was abused myself When I was a little shorty and also I will say it. Is I watch you know? My father was a pimp. My Daddy was so you could see this intergenerational but I also want to be real careful that we don't you know just make it look like is is pathological within families or whatever stemming like System saying over your meal It's assist in People benefit from families like mazdas being broken because of all the rest of it the prison industrial complex and whatnot. You know friends with grandparents all many generations near. That's about racism right. There's always bigger and also I'm a be honest with you. We can always be. I like these ladies. They really need or women of females would ever the proper term that the wrong lady the the the female aspect of this it is real big and we gotta look at that and then you know you're right you gotta look at the mayor side. Yeah and also it's not it's not simple it's not like okay you're prostitute but Now give us your prostitute card. Now your pediatrician switch jobs. There's it's like any kind of social worker outreach. There's a long complicated process to helping. People have more options and access to to a better life. It's not that but it's worth the work to have children become sex slaves. I think I always come back to this. I want us to stop reducing this conversation to debate about choice when we're talking about individuals who have the least amount of choices in our society. We need to change and hold men accountable and really socialize men and boys to see women and girls as fully equal human beings from our perspective. It's critical to decriminalize those engaged in prostitution right recognizing we should not criminalise acts of survival. We should instead provide these individual vital and meaningful resources so that they don't have to engage in sex acts with strangers to survive and in addition to that expunge their records right. If it's not something you should be arrested for. We believe in ceiling and expunging their records and providing them other meaningful viable options and alternatives. And yet and I'd love to know some. Where can people go to donate to learn to join the movement? Yeah so we've set up a survivor fund. You can text the words world we which stands for a world without exploitation to Four four three two one and that money goes directly to funding survivors advocacy. Because well some of us are doing this job. Those who are doing it just out of their kindness of their hearts and their experience should actually be funded and paid for their advocacy. So that's our our big funding goal and then look out for our legislation that we're introducing in January called the equality model Equality Model. Yeah and follow us on. Social media are tags are no buyer no pimp and on twitter and instagram. Well we WanNa think Sarah Jones so much sell by date and follow her and have your life changed. I want to thank all of you for your time. And your your effort and what you're doing. Thank you and and I wanNA thank the listeners. Because I know this isn't like the most slab underneath fun episode but it's real important and so I hope you support the equality model or at least you have some more information today. Thank you stay strong toxin. Hey three one three girls when Keith is a spotify. Original podcast are executive. Producers are me Amy Schumer and Kevin Kane are executive producers at spotify are Bar Coleman and Robin Hopkins Three Girls One. Keith is produced in collaboration with the team gilded audio and Dan Rosato and by the way make sure to all three years so you don't miss a single episode.

prostitution Keith Sarah Jones New York City keith United States Harry Sweden John Name Alexi Ashe Myers Alexi Texas Iran bridget PTSD Nevada New York Brooklyn
PARASITE = Poor Mans Oceans 11 (w/ Kenice Mobley, 2 Dope Queens)

Asian, Not Asian

55:49 min | 10 months ago

PARASITE = Poor Mans Oceans 11 (w/ Kenice Mobley, 2 Dope Queens)

"Hi It's me it's Mike. We just wanted to make a quick announcement about our upcoming live. PODCAST recording that is coming up on January twenty nine thirty. PM At the Peoples Improv Theater. Just go into the pit Dash NYC DOT COM for tickets or go to Asia Asia pod dot com for tickets. And there's a there's a link that links you to compete the Pity site so we hope to see their big theater so we want to fill it out and we WANNA make sure Oliver. NYC angels come out to the show. January twenty fifth at nine thirty PM. See their Asian ventures so so so far Asian guys together together stealing place everyone gun. Maybe you can look me up here Hey what's up everybody. Welcome to Asian Not Asian podcasts. podcast Asian guys now from Asia. I talk about American issues. No American cares about. I'm assuming an when you win. Cook Shuttle Tourist. Those are network listening party and radio. Got Those guys on Instagram at listening party presents at Canal Street market. If you're listening to this on your phones right now please take a screen shot and post. Oh session on instagram stories tags at Asian Not Asian pod and write these exact words. If you care about me you would subscribe to this podcast. Thank you and also if you're let's leave review that always helps it's been no I was gonna I was Gonna be like it's been awhile but I saw you last week. I I saw last week. We haven't been in here in a while right by the time the studio by the time to listen to this episode. They have just ha ha. They have just heard two episodes where you're not I didn't Oh why don't you say something. Oh Hello Oh. I don't do well with emotional things like that but I missed you guys. Do that was so incensed. But that's okay. That's okay because Today we're GONNA be talking but a very unemotional thing about capitalism part two ood talked about little bit with free. But there's more I got to say about it there is and we're we'll try to talk about it in like a runaway through. Yeah through through arts art. Yeah are you know. We're not GONNA buy economics. Maybe a little bit but this is not going to be like a lecture. This is just like this is just like can you cannot talk right now. Do you have not been introduced. Not GonNA bleep it out. I'm GONNA bleep it. I'll be like she just caught us. The more you talk. Yeah we just say it's amazing what you can do with aftereffects. Now it'll we'll have you say. What did you say about racial slurs happening on this? podcast no you did. Yeah so you have a joke joke. I just did this show with our guest. which about that later? uh-huh show could've fifty first jokes which is a show that happens once a year at the Bell House in Brooklyn which we wanna do our podcast live podcast there some pundit. Yeah it's amazing if you pack it out. It's fucking amazing. I'm sure it's like a big space in Brooklyn is very cool and the the premise is fifty comedians. Go Up to tell like a new joke that they wrote in. Twenty twenty is the premise. A lot of people are just tell like a newer joker or whatever and everybody gets like one or two minutes. It's a fun time and you know the park. Slope crowd is like that rich like NPR Krauss. That's something you've got to deal with. But I I've been doing this joke recently about intergenerational wealth and like it started out off the tweet I'm not GonNa do the bit but basically like the tweet was something like if I may warmer the person in New York who doesn't have to pay for rent because their parents pay for everything. I'm going to have to set. My parents have a have. A conversation with them about their careers went wrong. It's I'm playing on the idea of like immigrant. Parents always being like you you. Why aren't you? Why are you rich that look at my? Why are you like my rich white friends or whatever because that's why I'm not rich? It's so good because it's both an Asian joke about like you know why because Joe Immigrant Yoga Get Asian immigrant joke and it's also capitalism drew. Yes so two things at the same time. Yes but you say that so doing. It's like one of my favorite jokes right now goes but it's funny because some people don't get it and so that joke either does really well or a bomb. Anything interesting when I bomb because I can see that. It's not that they didn't they weren't paying attention. It's just that I can see people the understand it but they don't know why it's funny and I've had I've I've felt like when I do shows and final like I guess like rich young people ish like Kinda like Yuppie vibes they don't always get it and then when I do it in front of like predom- If I do they get it 'cause you know a lot of them they may have grandparents or or that they don't get handouts right like we always talk about this like Asian people end non Asian people people will call it. We don't fucking get handouts are parents usually don't give us a house or whatever. Yeah yeah so they get it. But that's the most that's like a very interesting thing comedies. The the the the social science aspect of it and it just got me thinking you know I think as you get older and again. I'm very stupid. So I'm not trying to. Who sexier but I feel like as you get older you start to see like the Matrix of the world and how Shit works zero zero's and it starts off but like okay? They don't get the joke they don't know why it's funny. Because they are the people making fun of the people who their parents paid for or the parents still pay for a lot of their finances because the only make twenty five thousand dollars a year being in Asia. Or whatever right yeah and you think about these people and they just look different life like I was thinking about like this girl that I work with Our Name. I can't say her name. But she basically he got like a auto immune disease or something like that while she was working at my company and she had to run like so many different blood tests which is like so oh expensive even if you have insurance and basic what happened is her. MOM is a doctor like a rich doctor from Westchester and her mom just like did all the tests for her and they spent like an entire. You're trying figure out what was wrong with her and they figured it out and meanwhile while she was frigging that I was doing very little work at our company and our bosses. We're getting very frustrated needed. So it's like she's making money being sick and like kind of figuring out what's wrong with this like with her with her body and I was just thinking like. Oh what if Michael's situation what. If I wasn't a situation we would die. We would just die for Sir die because we don't have the resources we don't say. Go bankrupt I I mean how many times you hear stories about like an odd old wife trying to save her husband from cancer and he dies now she has no measure of the money. And it's like you see there's just so much fucking money New York. Oh so much money and it's like I don't even WanNa use the word infuriating. It's just like I feel so powerless against it. Sometimes you you know you just do. I have a similar story in of this place I used to work at and they'll be like my co workers. They would just be you. There will be doing well but they just had this level of like they accepted that they that the world certainly. It's okay well for example whenever one of them would talk about horseback riding. Yeah Oh shit like a whole other thing. You know the thing like to go on these trips and I deserve this kind of off and I have I am expected to. I expect that should be able to expensive this. And that and you know what I worked really hard and therefore I am and they do work hard and all that stuff you know. They're very very smart. Dot saying any of those things aren't true but they also expect they grew up with a level of I. This is the way the world works because I grew up with this kind of. I don't want to say privileges whatever it is but this is just my lifestyle. Yes yes anything anything below that. They don't even consider thing it's like they would. Why aren't there horses alive? Why wouldn't I have a horseback one time? My Horse We had to wait to rent a saddle you or whatever it is and it ends up permeating a lot of The way they view the world you know the sort of respect they sort of expect to have going back to the joke that you have. I think sometimes it might not work on people people because they D- they haven't connected the dots. Yeah as far as you know. What does my parents wealth have to do with me? Even if they are paying for stuff yes in a very shitty like small like level like I remember when I graduated from College. I was like okay. I'm going to get an apartment now and I graduate from college and I found an apartment and it was like six exert all month. Let's say and I wanted to mom and it was like. Hey Mama found this apartment six hundred dollars a month and my mom's like cool. How are you gonNA pay for that? And it dawned on me that I was like I. I've been paying for my mom had been paying for my dorm with alone but like you know what I'm saying. She now. She didn't have she. She doesn't have any more money and I was like. Oh my God and I have to go home. I'd have to which I did. I didn't rent the rent and so is this just like doesn't dawn on you because you've been taking care of you know like the money is just like oh well this is just like this is of course. I'm I am the son of my dad. Of course that that's going to take care of me right. Yeah Yeah so yeah. It's it's I have a new definition or like I don't know just like the war poor means something different to me now. It's more than just like I'm homeless. It's a much wider spectrum in that horse or above Swick. And if you can't afford a horse then like to them you are very poor. It's it's it's what everybody was up. It's it's about wealth people make money. Money's like okay so you know you money just disappears. Hopefully we can get into this day and speaking of poor people we gotta get today and you're got a call me. Ching Chong bleep it earlier. Annals against consumer chuck it to the MIC. Please talking into the my pillow. Okay we have a stand up comedian Brooklyn. She has a podcast called love about town. Hey she's she's about as podcast before give it up for Caen mobely I'm not rich so I am poor. Have Wealth I don't have well well. I mean cowards. So this is this is a joke. But how are you doing financially how you doing. I'm doing all right. So last year I was working for a startup The startup was purchased by Major Corporation that I cannot name And I didn't really want to work for that Major Corporation and Mitee was doing less and less and so I quit my job. They gave me a small severance work all summer. And yes yeah you were so a happy yes. That's the thing about unemployment. Sometimes people are like. Oh I'm so sorry. But that's not always the react. Congratulations on getting divorced. Yes that was way around my neck which society says I should have. I no longer have it and I feel free. Yes yes did you Did you like you. Don't have to give too much detail was a like a severance that you could live on for a long time. No it wasn't And also that's part of it so we're talking about like If you're not rich or poor in late capitalism it's so interesting because sometimes when you critique capitalism the first response to be like will you buy things and that's not that's commerce completely separate thing so it's really frustrating when they're like we can't do socials we can't do. Communism can't do these things. Because how would i. I think people think everything's going to be like rations. Yeah it's just the only way to do this to be handed things when the government. But it's I bring all that up to say it's crazy when the company sold like the discrepancy between like what what some employees got versus what other employees got one guy. I WANNA say nine million dollars whereas like from the sale l.. I got three thousand dollars. It's it's a thing where it's not just that these two amounts aren't equal which this person is one of the stars of the company. I understand why he makes more but to make that. That much of a gap that it is let's see here thousands and thousands hundred thousands. That is three orders of magnitude. I'm talking about orders of magnitude which people is different from like three times. We orders of magnitude more than I did. This person worked three or four. We're on hours a week. Yes or whatever it is you know. That's crazy okay. Let's it does not. I'm I'm I'm not saying everyone needs to be paid the same and there should be no incentive to work hard. That's clearly not what I m saying. But the idea that we are valuing some people's Labor at three orders for orders five orders of magnitude or other people is insane and it creates a system that is unstable. It's all about it's all about like equity it's all about ownership ownership of stuff. Yeah but you gotta own something and then because like you know I was thinking about that stupid thing where You know like if Bill Gates stopped one hundred dollar bill and picked it up. You know he would lose money or something right because we take him like two seconds and he actually makes hundred thousand dollars. What the fog that calculates okay? But he's not losing money doesn't make money because he's not he's not at like the money. Crank I yeah you know what I'm saying. He has something that makes money for him. Yeah that's how he makes money right because like rainy. One of US extra we can make you know we can go to work and we crank the money machine and the money comes at us has to go to fucking whatever avocado toast or whatever. It is US millennials like But we don't have ownership of the it's better it to own the money cranking machine machine and have somebody else. Crank the money for you. You going along with Mike Okay. You know we're we're good friends because as we get along but also because you. This is the theme with all my comedy. Friends is like all my comedy friends have either have or have at one. Point had a stable job and they they know what it's like to like hustle in New York like for money and chaser dream. Yes it's not. Mutually exclusive right and a lot of people cadaver plan Bibro but like I wouldn't even though are important not just poor. I'm not what of the rich people. But I've been poor like I guess I. I don't eat meat now because I can't afford meat now so like vegetarian. Based on price point level of poor. It's like well I'm at the grocery store and I'm like no so somebody's like well you are you doing doing Intermittent fasting technically. I just went to bed. Yeah I've been that level if what do you think about when you meet comics other people who were like not not this shit on these people but shit on the right but in New York New York you do meet a lot of people. I'm talking about kind of making in front of this show. A ton of people who their parents bought them in apartment bought bought read them but they had the means to upfront upfront. Give someone cash to buy an apartment. It yeah I mean it's even if you're a comedian who it's tough for sure if you like or from the middle of the country and you pick up a new move but if itself is a privilege is a lot of people can't be. They cannot do that you you know like you know. They have family to support or whatever or they just there in some sort of dire straits but like to be able to be like I can. I can look after only myself. That's a huge huge thing. Yeah and it was good So I'm poor and it is frustrating to hear people say no you like especially if these are the people who are giving advice shut up to have gone through that to have had day job after job after job to support myself be tired pretty much for years of my life just to have someone whose dad pays for their apartment either rents or buys or they have like a credit card allowance so they don't really have any expenses so their rent is just like the only thing they you have to worry about for them to be like no. You're not dedicated enough out. Patient is if I'm doing all this stuff and still doing this. Yeah probably get booked more than those guys anyways so flex flex a did you. You didn't you didn't do unemployment while you had to. I didn't because I had the seven. I'm telling you right now. You should have done it. I should have done it. Should it would have allowed me to not have a job for longer so I was in Europe and and I was like an easy. We're spending all your money and you're going to get back and you're GONNA have to be a vegetarian. I applied for like four or jobs while I was over in Europe. I had my first interview while I was in Milan. Second interview. While I was in Greece I came back the day I came back doc. I went to an interview and I started the next. You are burning away all of the goodwill. I just had for talking about how you applied for a job Milan. I know that I definitely minutely. I will say I I was able to do that because I had been working for two years straight and gotten a severance and I don't spend very very much money in my daily life because I'm constantly in fear of a complete economic collapse knows it happened right after I graduated waited college and it was like everyone's destitute. There is no money anywhere. Expect to be poor etcetera. So now I'm like at any moment I could just be walking around living my life and then money as a thing just seems to disappear. Where did it go? How what's the closest you've ever been to like? Oh Shit I'm not sure sure if I'm going I I was. I was down to get unemployment story. My I've had one. I've had I've been on unemployment once and I was like for two or three months and it was amazing because you don't get that much money but it's like how much is it. Okay if I ask you know everybody is the same for everybody. It's the maximum. Yeah it's well I mean it's supposed to be like it's some x amount of money that you had made up to whatever it's up to like three three eighty dollars a week which is like yeah so everyone can reach them. I mean not everyone. I'm sorry so like if you're making sixty grand you you've already reached the Mac Scott Guy you know it's not like if you made two hundred fifty thousand dollars going to be giving you ten thousand dollars a month But like you know this whole thing about you. Bi and angry Yang Ball. Oh Blah like the kind of already exists. If you have an employment they give you about about a thousand dollars a month. Yeah it's not an it's great because it's not enough where you can just be like sitting soon around smoking weed and doing stuff like that. It's enough where you don't have to pay rent. I mean it covers a lot of your rent most even in New York. If there's one hundred it's it's something right and for me. It was enough for me to cover my rent. Of course I still had to figure out how to do other stuff. You're allowed to work a certain amount in unemployment like I think ten hours a week or something like that which I had like a some stupid blog writing job I worked like five hours a week so that was so every week. I got the money and to save it and then I saved it up eh. The month paid my rent. That was just a huge load off. Yeah because I allowed for a couple of months to just kind of like figure out my shit and like it's not fun to be on there there because they bothered the shit out of you there like you have to go down to You don't you don't have to take classes but you have to go down into like this. This government building and teach you how to apply for a job. What am applied in Boston? Because Yeah I had a period of three months where I was so I applied there and we didn't have to physically go anywhere. We just send them. What jobs did you apply for that too? Yes yes yeah so you have to do you have to fill out. You have to apply for X.. Amount of a nice little start replying and to be honest with you. I wanted to get off of unemployment just because it was so annoying wing. It was there. Were just like okay. Then you're GONNA have to come down and do this. I don't like someone like like. If you WANNA get people out of unemployment. Just tell me they have to go to the DMV every week but anyways it was just like a nice like load off and you definitely should. I mean necker. It'll be good. I quit my job and it feel right if you quit your job. No you can't yeah. At least you're not supposed to fire Mike. Yeah I got leadoff. This isn't McCann former Philippine and it was funny. That's when I started comedy bay. Take time to find you and like find a job that is a fit the last thing the you should want people to do is okay. I lost my job. I have to take the first first job that comes along. which you're going to May or may not be a fit is going to be bad bad bad like that? Just leads to right so yeah giving people a little bit of a cushion so that they can say. Let me choose the job that actually is a fit for that. Yeah that's it's it's let me give you let me give you the owners ownership owner class the owner ownership class. Okay but I'm talking about like the social class. The owners describe it as I took some time off so that I could work on my skills and develop value Which I did? I went to open mics. They did. I want to open mics. And that was the developing new skills and creating value which I did but you can bring to the organ org which can now bring to the organization. Have this thing. So that's like the way you gotta think about trying to think. Well this is a great transition into the the main topic when again today now before we get it we get. We're we're GonNa talk about parasite the movie hopefully a knows you've seen it and if you haven't by now is probably your fault. I mean. Try not the spoiler but like no promises I wanNA spoil the shit out of. Okay well you heard Caen so I guess if you don't want to hear it don't listen to it for the theme team so I think you can still enjoy it and before we get into it you did you. Because you you'll have a film background went to film school yes. MFA and film production FA FA production. So you use a lot of like indie film. Shit you know I haven't I haven't as much since Grad school but I do watch a lot of films. I watched one hundred a year. Seen yes it's important to me to just like I love movies movies movies and television. Oh vision or things that I really liked. So yeah so before we get into the themes of parasite quick summary of the movie. This is not a spoiler movie about a Korean family that infiltrates and intermingled with the world road of the well road of a wealthy family. We've all seen it. We just start with like what are we think we start there. Sure we all liked it. You liked it. I loved it but we don't know why are we can't explain mind. Well that's one thing I was gonna ask okay so for me especially the first I like half of it is. It was just fun to watch and I was trying to think of it as like. It's fun to watch. Because like the scheming of the family and the logic of the family it was it was like a caper. How are they going to ingratiate themselves right into into this rich family and it was like this like they had like this not even that elaborate but like a fund scheme to do it and it was just it was for me fun to watch and there's so many movies whether it's it's an artsy movie or even like even marvel movies and a lot of times? Marvel movies are not fun to watch. And you're watching them and you're like I see what's happening but now there's a real long action sequence and like that but some but that's the thing I know is supposed to be fun but it's like it's just like there's there's so much shit on screen and you're like what am I supposed to Officio th at one point seventy may look good. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah my all my God one shot where you just see and you're like yes l. and it's just like you know there's a lot of things where I it's supposed to be fun but it doesn't feel like parasite it was like. It was fun it was a genuinely fun. Is there something how. What is it that a movie does to make something fun? Do you know what I'm saying like I was trying to figure out why it's right. So they established these characters even though they are doing something. That's like morally dubious. They establish the emotional connection between the characters and they provide you a reason reason to care about these people succeeding. I think in a lot of the marvel films. They're like this. Is this person and based on that you're supposed to like them. Oh that power. Yeah just because they have the power but they're not giving you a reason to emotionally attached to get their backstories shallow shall. It's not like I got bit by spider. Yeah I like Spiderman with I. I'm like why do I give a shit about God. Yeah gone on your about literally. Immortal talking about the struggle I liked Natalie Portman Portman and I guess she didn't like him in the second that they couldn't get a human to fuck with him that's garbage. Hey let's just those two. The first movies were very bad but they give you a reason to emotionally attached. It's also like they use humor in away so like this isn't ruining anything. There's a scene where somebody keeps peeing into like their house into like they're funny. You can relate to their struggles you root for them and it really does is like it's well written so that you attach it every character. Funny Things Happen to them. You see them succeed you feel good. I love the shift that happens in the movie. It's just like someone knocks on the door and it's it's just all of a sudden all of a sudden boom you can tell. A major shift is then you could tell in that scene that something was going to happen because fucking loyalty. He's talking to where the family has. You know has successfully infiltrated this house. and the rich family goes goes away and they get jobs. They all get jobs shooter as homemade. They're all like this so they all like enjoying the house because the rich family has gone on like on a weekend trip type thing and they're all sitting there drinking and eating and it's like one of those kind of like almost trope. Setups where you you know the the the cats away the mice will play. But you know the cat's GonNa come back. Yeah you know what's going to happen but it's not quite how the way you think it is saving a cat. It's like a dog. Aw that's all of a sudden. The made that they had displaced there was an original made that worked for this rich family and they made a gun displacing. That made comes back. Yeah and you're like wait a second. What the fuck is she here? Yeah and it's raining and you're like cheese acting much different than in the like. When she's she's is beat up she she's kind of like you can tell she's Kinda gone through something like Oh shit what the fuck is about? The first moment I think we see the consequences of their scheme. Amy Yes like they get other people out like they knocked out other tutors. They like they they have the driver ever fired all that. But we don't see we know what happens. We see them succeed. So we don't necessarily see the consequences the second she reappears and you see her face is like splotch e because she had some serious allergic reaction. It's like Oh shit. Yeah I love that. I want to talk about FAM- family for a second. I I love that family any because so I feel like it's not very common to see like an Asian family in that kind of way like a poor not only other poor but like they're like friends yeah. I really like that. Like they're like you know like for example Sun is like openly talking about like. Hey I think ask out that the tutoring after she goes talking about dating You know he's like walking on a sister taking a bath like they're like bodies and like I I haven't seen that a lot info you see an Asian family on whatever movie or like even Japanese films and stuff. It's proper that's my bad. I gotTA respect him like I'm hiding it from them but this I don't know if it's because they the report and there are so few rooms in there you have to like talk about this thing. Anyway that's what makes him so likable. Because yes yes he looks like a Shitty avengers accomplish this goal. It has a has a very poor person's thousands version of Ocean's eleven because everybody had this weird like scheme going on but to your point at a certain point then there's a shift and people you know have asked is it like is it scary and there's definitely is like scary for example so when the when the original made comes back she comes back and then she has to open a door but she has she pushes on it with her whole body and so for a second Kinda like horizontal and you're like Oh shit. Is She ghost visually. You're like it's setting you up for one thing but it's the real is different and of course reveal is that that made husband original mates husband lives in the basement of this rich people's rich person's house. Yeah and he's lived there for like a year years and years and it's like a debasement but that nobody knows about it longer and it made sense because it was just some random bunker. It was like a lot of architects would put a bunker in in case north attacks. Right right right right. It's all kinds of justified right exactly and then it's like. Is it a horror movie. It's not a horror movie. Yeah there are certain scary things. It's it's still kind of funny funny moments too like even when they're all like I think it's the mom of the family that we like has gone down with assist lady that this exists and she's like I'm going to report. Yeah and then the so the family is trying to listen and not let her know and then suddenly they trip trip and she's like Oh wait a second. Let's table has instantly turned. Yeah now I have power over you guys. That was those. It was very funny but also it is. It was great that kind of leads into the the second thing is that so I was watching this and I had smoked some weed so really as also I dislike wheat so like I was Kinda taking stride but I had my wife grow and she watches a lot of k dramas and stuff like that and in some ways. I got used to some of the twists because I in K dramas. They don't give a shit about John Nra a lot of times. They'll I mean by that so that means like you'll watch something. I was watching this one. And it's about four young girls who live in a house and they're all at university students in general. Well it's like a light hearted drama about these four girls but every once in a while some weird shit will happen for example like one of the girls she gets kidnapped. Ah ex-boyfriend suddenly become the scary e not murder mystery but like scary mystery but you you just pitched it to me as if it was like the Korean friends I mean. A lot of it is leading died. kinross kidnaps keeps her in her basement. Only theme song to say that's the end of the end of every one of the things is still like you know like a strumming guitar. And I'm like what she is tied up in a base. But so the whole Genre Enrique breaking is something I see a lot but is that that's something I saw in this parasite was that it was all these different movie kind of things at once. Can you talk about that like like. I think that's actor director is known for you know if that's a Korean thing. His sister director thing. He does tend to shock you at at some point in the movie. Where like you'll think this is the world that we exist in and then there will be something that happens that suddenly shifts to let you know that your perception of the world is incorrect Where either it is like A? Oh we're introducing new element into the story like he does and parasite or or were throwing question. The very the way this world was built in lake. Snow Piercer with Chris Evans. Yeah Yeah so he loves do I mean he loves making movies about like social class. Yeah that's also a movie about like it's basically parasite but it's on a train in the further up you on a train the richer you are and I think what happened is the world is frozen and you have to keep moving Goes around the world to people in the back or porn they're eating these like Jello Cubes Cockroach cockroach and the people in the front are like signing unlike first class food. Yeah so it's it's about class and stuff. I mean. That was kind of the from a right. This movie's commentary about social is about social things. But it's also like if you remember at the end of that that movie it's The Guy who was in the back coordinates with the guy. WHO's in the front about win? We're going to have wars and we're going to have these things to like lower the population. Aw Yes yes. The population ocean. I'm sorry I've seen it explained to him. This is crazy so right this movie. It's fucking insane it's crazy moving. It's like also visually like what the fuck. But they have it so that there's again different segments of the strain represent different classes. And you can. What what you have? Access S. T. was dependent on which train your end so in the back train. They're like we're going to go and we're GONNA like it's like it feels like organic like Oh this. This starts to be whispers and we're GONNA go take over the front part and we're going to have this war and we're going to claim our place in this and so the whole story at first seems like okay. We're getting together this we're fighting we're fighting. We're fighting people are dying as they're moving up the thing but you get to the front and you realize that he has the guy who's at the front. The one was the most powerful one that they've been like. We gotTA kill this guy. He is a phone that connects directly to the back of the train. And they say okay. This is when we're going to be having a war. We need this many. They need this. Remember fewer people on the strain. So let's have them come through. They'll some people killed here. Some people coordinated the war so every revolution evolution is their idea. been calculated just to go through the power dynamics like Oh you think you control anything back there under our our calculations. Yeah so I mean. It's I mean parasite was I guess it was kind of like that. There's this argument of like. Who is the parasite you know in the movie is is it the Ray Kim's or the the people in the front or the parks the rich people who are a slave to the manual labor off off the blue collar? People right right you. Had you had an interesting thing where you mentioned before we start recording that like really the the. The rich family is oblivious to all of the stuff that's happening. Yeah told the very end until the very very end yeah. Yeah and it's really a war or between all the people who don't have anything. Yes yes so I one of the most watched an interview with Bajan or whatever his name is yes obviously. It's about class and stuff and the rich people but the sad part is that sat poor people fight with other poor for sure. Yeah and I see that in real I I sedan lifelike on my street. Does a Korean Deli and across the street is a New Delhi run by like Arab dudes and the Koreans Blueberry and the other one is called wholesome foods or something like way and they're like they're having a price war over their salads and sandwiches because they want to run each other business right after seeing movie. I'm like dude when you guys are doing both immigrant families Bitta. Obviously I WANNA put both of them. But it's like you think whole foods gives a fuck about you know all these big chains trader. Joe's like they're laughing. Nothing at you guys laughing at you guys. They don't give a fuck and I think that's the thing with parasite is like they could have got the the the people in the bunker ray and the park the chemists they could have maybe collaborated and really taking over the parks but yeah they just can't do it because that's the that's the first line of the poor class. I guess you just just can't they can't like they. I don't think they realized the power. Yeah they have that they could if they wanted to put the Kim's into the bunker and then just enjoy this house all that stuff no one would know where to look for them like I mean. Yeah the police are you guys. It's like Oh. They told us to look at their house. I'm the made. It could do something. That drastic crossed their mind. It doesn't even that it's like no. We just need to keep the lie going. elving go we want to. The frustrating thing is and they kind of talked about this at the end like at the beginning. You see that it's not like any of these people are smart like Oh yeah John like the the rich kid who gives him this tutor job this guy. He's like Oh you're smarter than me. You're able to do this but he just doesn't have access to go to college. My daughter is able to like quickly forged documents that little rock. And they're like. Oh my gosh you could have been this. And it's like these people could be be something if they had access to capital but they're just going to stay in the police that they are because they don't have access to capital the okay. I have like a couple themes I want to discuss. That I thought was interesting. I one of the things I picked up on was always constantly constantly like clashing like the rich and the poor lifestyle is just to show you is rubbing your face. How different is so the marriage between the rich family and the poor family? I thought was interesting. It almost feels like the marriage in the rich family was like not based in love at all and one scene. That really got me was when Mr Kim infiltrates as a driver and Mrs Kim infants as a maid right working in the same room and while the parks the Richie Richardson's called the parks while they're not looking. He grabs her ass. Yeah he's like. Hey we made it right. That's funny that's that's like a thing. A husband should due to a wife every once in a while right and then you contrast that with the way the park show affection which is there on the couch and he like forcibly like like fingers her. Yeah in that thing you know. It doesn't even look it. Looks Force also like we don't even know if she's enjoying it as is this love you know and like multiple times. The the theme of love comes comes up and then the husband doesn't have a clear answer. Weather's like he loves his wife for Niagara All he has to say she's a bad cook and she can't do house so he only has bad things to say about her her and it kind of like. Oh so I. This is the moment where they really reinforce the class lines. Each time The Dad add the driver. Mr Tim does this but he's like yes but you love her like y'all the Mr Park will be like Yeah he'll be complaining about her. And then I he's. He's like genuinely trying to help Mr Kim's like because he is coming from this place of love like he loves his wife so right right then every time. That's the moment when you bring up like that. They don't have love. That's at the moment. He's like okay you. You're my driver and you should stop this crossing the line. You can comment on other things that you can't comment. Yeah theoretically don't have yeah. I think when you get rich you lose. Love is not the lesson. They're like what you just everything just becomes transactional and business. You know. I don't know and this is where it's to me. The to poor couples had more love. Oh yeah move even the basement people are real love. That wife Miss Park Mark would work in a house for four years just to make sure her husband could hide from debtors. Brian ages ago. I'm sorry you're done. And this is also in a way. She's a parasite too busy. Pretty I sit around and I'm so worried that he's going to demand he can't see any flaws right. Yeah well there is like sort of the way. The rich family has to keep up certain pretenses. France's Yeah I mean you can't say that the father doesn't love the children because the you know when the son gets sick he rushes off to try to do you know. Take the kids at the hospital. which kind of leads? So the big final thing you know so there is like there. Is Some love happening in this family. Yeah but just the the way that it's portrayed again it's a little bit more about you know it's a lot about what does each family I know about the world right so the the rich family only the only kind of concerned about you know parties worrying about themselves right whereas the remember that the the poorer family the poor the family is the more knowledge they have the whole situation. I mean they can't keep this. This is a bit literal but they they they cannot keep the world out so like the Kim's live in a basement. There's a night when it floods which is coming into their house like they had all of the shit literally they have to deal with all of that but the parks live in this like pristine little island unto themselves. They get to control every rolling trees. Line nine their backyard. So they don't even have to see the rest of the city they get to just control it so much they don't have to. That's the whole thing where the the lights come on by itself because there's a guy in the basis of guy in the basement is turning an on off and they just assume that sensor like ooh ooh man. Here's a couple of interesting don't know if he gets picked up on the theme of Native Americans. Apparently that was that was an amish to the original parasite which the the pilgrims came to America. They came to a house that was taken with interesting. Is that ending theme song. Apparently the director wrote the lyrics. Apparently he's describing all the work he's doing all the work. The Sun is doing to make money to buy that house which is like what he's doing this. The song was originally. We're going right back. That song was originally called five hundred seventy four years because the director did the math and for somebody indepth index socioeconomic class to make X.. Amount of money to buy the house. It would take you five hundred years to do it meaning not as Ki. His kids won't get it. His grandkids won't get his grand grandkids. Grandkids won't get it either. Like yeah. That's he's never never so it just goes through like once you're in this class. You can play the Games. You could be a parasite Cypher logo but like at the end of the day. You're never gonNa really never going to live in that house. And that's how I feel when I do comedy with with rich kids so oh get that unemployment check I in this is news. Today is not really a race news. It is raced news in that. We are bitter about it this. This article reads eleven Asian American comics. Who killed it this year and needs to be on your twenty twenty radar and you know they list eleven? Comedians were killed this year and Mike and I read this article. And we're not in it in it at all I would kill it. This is great. I mean I am a fan of you guys. I will say all of the people who are on that list have. TV Deals TV deals either. Were employed like or their employment tends to to be more public facing they you guys got to get on TV. I think this is where they pull their information for what I was what I was joking around with with before was one of the one of the comics is apart an interlock. Yeah right and you don't have. She's like he needs to be on your radar. That's what the thing says a part porno been on the radar on the radio like we didn't Netflix special on late. Show Colbert. She's been on. She's on several television shows. That's why I was like. Can we just have lost movie. I like to think that we were on here. Shays on yeah I mean he's also been a I don't know I feel like let's let's go. Let's let's go through apar- she's great. She's like I don't know why on this gutter check her out. She's new. This is not new bone own young reasonable. He didn't have a good break degree in as many sketches as possible on. SNL They are really pushing hard people. Love him he was on this amazing podcast called Asian. Was told you about it the next week so I'm just saying we have recessions before he had been working before this the APP whatever technicalities Sharee Cola. I don't I don't know this but open for Ronnie. Oh Open for for him during a Netflix different. Kinda different I'm like. I'm in the basement of opening. Okay the parasite base minimum. Okay Joachim Booster. Hey well-deserved Hawkeye. He's on TV. Yeah he had sunnyside Shanguang. I mean he's he's been on my radar. You know okay okay. Karen she fought that Yuck Geez. Great Show Yup She got the job at the late late night with Seth Meyers after she did a podcast so who knows. Nothing is related. Yeah but how long was she had been late night while news after Asian. Not Asian. Really I guess you Gene Cordero. I don't know this is He is on the good place. Oh Hey hey I can't can't shoot on that. Yeah good way Pattie Harrison. I don't really know her comedy. I know Internet. I know she's no Internet Internet Internet. No she I follow her on twitter. I think she's Oh she's focus so funny onto it but she also had a podcast with Laura Ramirez like a woman smile she's in shrill. She's she has a lot of small OUGHTA. She's she's had the buzz around or I've heard sure and then finally Karen she's been okay. Also Jimmy o Yang Long semi all Yang doing here. We dislike him. No no this is my wrong is is supposed to be like a you gotTa Watch you gotTa Watch out for these guys right. Yeah needs to be on your radar I think again. That's like top-five Black Comedians. You GotTa Watch out for this year. Dave Chapelle the Chris Rock to entertain legends like Jimmy Yang took her spot and then my Erskine well-deserved Lover Show Pin fifteen was amazing amazing. I'd like to think that we would be if this if this will list went out to one hundred I we would be there. I Ah yes naming Asian people on the street like that Guy Brian. Brian Wang my friend. Right so this guy working. It departments. He's going to be on the two thousand twenty one lists you think so Mike. Twenty twenty one. Yeah it's just a year from now we go that'd be that'd be our New Year's resolution get on some kind of list. Yeah I this is why I wanted the to work with you on like we have a pilot script and we have some other examples. I wanted to get another one because I I feel like we just need like a every a a lot of stuff with comedy is just somebody who somebody says you're funny and then everybody else goes. You're funny you know what I'm saying like when I wish that's why okay if I go back to the whole like comedy belts the I got my blue belts because I did the knit. Yes right and when I did the knit remind me how high Lewis and this. In this scenario we started recording. Don't listen over your karate. Algae real quick. Yeah that's just before we start recording okay so this is before okay so I feel sometimes with comedy. It's like it's not a skit. It's not something you can see. We're not making something you can see a Lotta Times while I guess there's films and stuff but you know with stand up comedy. You can't tell somebody's funny by looking at them right like some. You're supposed to respect them. You don't know what you're supposed to rest and I learned this a long time ago like I see somebody that Oh maybe that person not gonna be funny and they go up there and they crush it and it's GonNa be awesome. I think sometimes a lot of times. People underestimate me because I don't look poor poor that there ask for a long time. I think that people were just like. Oh you got to be like a disheveled looking white dude. I think the race Asia Gate and so then I would have to go up there and like you know and do my own funny okay. Fine so they cannot see your hands on this podcast karate impression of Mike. My wife Korean seeker the comedy you need to have like a belt system that we can all wear belts. Yeah I'm big into belts. Yeah and you know just like just karate belts yeah and it goes from you know White Yellow Orange Green Blue Purple Brown black. Whatever the fuck it is? And there's different stripes you can get and and you and then you can tell if somebody is going to be. That person deserves respect as high. Because yeah and that's why we always ask each other. How long have you been doing comedy? Yeah because if somebody says I've been doing comedy for like eight years like closer along to becoming a black that maybe we're like a brown belt but some of these people who have been in there at year's absolutely time you'd meet someone who's only been doing it for four years and they're very funny you can't really tell but that's the closest thing we yeah so I feel like we all need to perhaps some sort of system we knew sit down. Convene sorta Comedy Council. Yes we consider happened. I'd never happened. Just become just a bunch of people doing cocaine but will determine who is going to be on. What like thing a lot of these people on this twenty twenty one thousand nine hundred eleven already kind of like Brown belts or so so black belt black belt level she likes she invented their own style? The style Corky like secure park slope lawyer. Who is laughing the Zoe like me? But it's like I'M A. I'm definitely quirky a lot of anxiety. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah exactly Fu as I call it I love them so yeah I think you know what the fuck talking about little sister. I don't know maybe maybe we should be able to get onto a list of But I think that this is what we need to get a credit it on something so that people think is the belt. That's really what it is. You get the credit and then because you've got that credit you get like a blue I don't I don't know if these things are I just. I don't know the levels of belt but I just I cannot stand when I go to another comedy city because I'm not. I don't have a Netflix special. Just like who are you. Somebody's girlfriend loved to have the belt to be like actually no. I'm better than most of the people gas town. Jeff fucking life. You know what. I am not like conceded but I have done things and it is so annoying to have some open MIC acre. WHO's like six months in? Tell me what you just don't know who I am. I don't so funny stuff. Look at US four. Comedians fighting the going out the Kevin Hart let throughout this odd. Kinney's thank you so much for being on the pod there anything you'd like to plug. Yes I am. I'm going to be headlining Caroline's on January twenty first food meaning GonNa be on this show something featuring let me on twin twenty minutes You're doing fifteen minutes. Oh Guys Long said about doing a half hours once we should do. I still think we should. I mean you're going to do fifteen and I'm going to forty. Yeah Yeah Okay. So let's get tickets. They can get tickets on the Carolinas website. And I think the code you get cheaper. Tickets is sweet. Just the word sweet okay. Social media it is considerably on all the platforms. Follow me please like my tweets. No one does. It's really embarrassing Thank you You could also find at Asian Asian Pardon instagram and I'm on that the Fumio Abe also on twitter. Same name you can find me on this nice pants and the next city comedy. Show the monthly stand up. Show the Mike and a house. Together and produce together is going to be January. Fifteenth tickets are available. Aw On online. Just event BRAC city or go to our instagram bio link is ten bucks all new. COMEDIANS eight o'clock she markets January fifteenth. or or yeah or February one thousand nine hundred. You're listening to this late twenty twenty. Yes assuming that we're still around in the future because of four three. Ah Come check that out if you're not an irradiated mutant Okay I think that's it. Can you think next week by This episode of Asian. Not Asian is presented in partnership with Listening Party follow the crew on Instagram listening party presents and at Canal Street market.

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R.L. Stine's The Snowman

Teen Creeps

1:01:41 hr | 9 months ago

R.L. Stine's The Snowman

"A cold blooded killer. Let's go podcasts. Rl Stein the snowman. Welcome to increase the PODCAST that discusses trashy teen horror. I'm one of your host Lindsay. GEHT die I'm not the one of your hosts Kelly nugent and today they were talking about. Rl Stein this snowman. A point horror the point horror book. Yeah what what what what was that. So what do you want to read the back of the book. Yeah I do I. I'm sorry I got distracted because because I started reading because it's let it snow. Let it snow. Let it dot dot dot heather. Heather feels cold board there. Yeah Heather feels cold all the time. No she doesn't alone. Her Guardian hates her. He liked to see her dead. He'd like all her money but for now he settles for controlling it and making heather's life miserable poor little rich girl just like Cinderella. Then the gorgeous ice ace blond guy shows up at the crummy restaurant where heather works after school. He understands about heather. He's Prince charming. No one can get together now. Heather Heather feel so safe so loved so warm. Data dot eight never talks about other being cold all the time. She's not called all the time. That's not a thing. She lives with her uncle and her aunt. Yeah she's lived with him since she was three right weird. Yeah it's weird because because it feels like they have a relationship that's like renew. Yeah I thought that too and I thought that from the back of the book yeah that it was like her parents just died ride. Gee just got sent to the Guardian. I thought it was going to be a bigger saying of him trying to get rid of her he just like his mean he just mean I mean just mean and like she thinks maybe he stealing her money but like that is not how trust funds work they will be very specific way. Nobody else can in touch that money. Yeah it also shows an Acetate. Yeah he's not. He's not trying to take her money. He doesn't let her spend her money. Yeah but like. She doesn't get it until a certain age. That's also trust funds work. She's not eighteen yet. Ah Question Mark Yeah She's not alone she's got a boyfriend and a best friend yeah Her boyfriend is Ben Ben and her best friend. Is Kim Cam who as Chunky. Yeah and when we first meet her wearing so many sweaters that she looked almost round. Yeah Classic Trope And for some reason he seems really focused on the fact that Kim's voices like raspy yeah. It's a very unique and horse and raspy. He just talks about it all the time. It has no bearing on anything. No you know what else did not have any bearing on anything. I do not think. Think correct me if I'm wrong so okay now what you're about to say. When she gets into the car with Ben he's trying to put on a seat belt and he's a lot of trouble buckling uh-huh and then he has a lot of trouble taking it out design? have any okay because I saw it. I was like maybe no. That's not what I thought you were about. That would be weird because that is so nothing. Yeah like so at the beach so it never gets used never ever in. I just remember reading at me like Oh that would be a good place to like. He is very specific about I. It's very specific. Be Like Oh and then no. She's just like annoyed with him because she feels guilty. Yeah for agree to the date. With Snow Snowman Snowman Snowman Okay so we start off the book. She's making out with Ben. In Ben's car article comes out shames. Her calls her a tramp makes her go inside. She's mad. She goes to work at the diner at the mall that she works at. She sees her friend friend. Came Real Quick Kim leaves. She hates her life. Enter Snowman Snowman is not. Do you want to read what we picture no at all. No because the book is called the Snowman has a picture of a snowman on it. Yes so you would think oh maybe snowman. I think maybe we because of the fact that we read the stranger and it turns out the a stranger was a cave. Yeah I thought maybe he was going to be a snowman snowman. Well especially because but no. He's he is in fact a murderer like we thought the stranger was going to be. Yeah and he's a murderer His okay so she's like waiting tables At her job which she hates and This like really intriguing. Young man catches her attention. And this is how it begins. Oh sorry I didn't mean to scare you. Heather stared at the boy waiting for her heart to stop pounding because he had the most amazing hair. It was pure white not blonde not silver pure white it. It was parted in the middle and fell in waves down to his caller. It was even more startling because the boys features were dark. His skin was ready almost hand. His eyes were dark brown. He had the most adorable cleft in his Chen. Heather just stared at him. He may have been the most handsome boy. She never Seen this description Joanna saw hideous either join us on like long long here Robert Durst like like short guys and like white and Tan. And he's totally. Yeah ten with Dirk feature tanny white hair long white hair Julian in forbidden gain. No no this is hand boy who should have brown hair or black hair. Yeah but he has white hair even unlike long white hair. Yeah men little me like because she kept being like the white hair and the black is. I was like literally picturing like snow. You kept saying like any. Where's red scammers scarf? And he's like people. We'll call me snowman and I was like what people who like. Also he was so much of a weird fake red herring that like it worked. We shocked when he turned out to be bad because he was like. I understand you and all of his he was nothing nothing but nice all the time and also his lies were very obviously faked like he was like listen. My parents aren't around and like my dad. Used to be like your uncle but I took take care of him anyway. And you're like Oh you kill them. Yeah and MOM's a nurse. My mom and my brother is sick with the kidney thing that I can't tell you what it is. Also he keeps making her buy him lunch and he's like oh I just don't have my wallet and and she's like that's okay. You can pay me back later. And then he takes on a date and then he's like Oh let's go on the date and then at the date he's like I can't pay okay and she's like that's okay. I'll pay for it and he's like thanks. Well in that instance they just split it they do just split it so yes some money. I thought it was weird to set up this pattern of. She pays for everything but then in that moment like no they split it is what it and then he's like by the way my brother's there's really sick and he's way kidney ono a kidney thing. A Kit yes thing. That's sad do you want me to pay for it. I couldn't possibly I could. It's just I'd here in my account. He's stopped I have two thousand dollars. It's not even a part of my trust fund. I mean it's crazy. That two eight hundred dollars would be enough to pay for it but no you know what how I need to go after go. Okay Ring Ring. Well I was thinking about it. Yeah think about what sorry I should my brother. He has a kidney right. How is he is not good? It's really bad I'm really. I'm so sorry I hate to do this. Yeah I need the two thousand dollars. Absolutely thank you so much. Here's a check you for some reason. Leave the memo part blank. Okay I was going to rape kidney thing no you should put actually put like secret okay. Secret put like secret task. Okay okay do you want me to draw a little knife next to it. Yes yeah just do that or a gun yet. Do Cute Gun do you do Like a Scarlett O.. Strangling somebody okay a hurt a scarf. The stranglings scarf around a heart. Yeah but strangling the heart. Okay this makes sense. I killed your uncle now. Everyone's going to pay me because incriminating check of questions. Why why would I do this? Why and no answers? How long have you been planning this? I want me is a big question since I I like thank you I did like you and then I met your uncle in the way that he was back talking you. I thought that was really unacceptable. Remind me of my dad who used to abuse me. Who used to beat you with a bike chain and title? I bled in the garage and yelled and my route uncle. You're rude uncle reminded me of that. Yeah I mean he is rude but like so I okay but like back okay. I strangled him with my scarf. Okay my right eye garf- yeah because I'm a snowman. Oh man here's a question so okay so we'll table will table white me. Okay sure if I could just lasko how how did you know I would pay two thousand dollars for the surgery I here. Here's the thing is you seem to know that because it was a huge part of your plan I tested your giving nece. You're right January generally from like burgers. That's the true lighter Hitman Burgers to Hitman Burgers to kidney. I guess I mean I guess since I did it it. It makes sense as a progression using to spend your money. You've been burning. Spend your money because you're a bitch uncle won't let you spend it. It's true I mean you want to spend it on me Freeman okay. There's no man's brothers kidney so okay I guess what. I don't have a brother. Oh Oh that was a trick. Oh I wanted to frame you I wanted to. So there's nothing wrong with his kidneys doesn't exist. Oh guess what though what you better be some more money I'm just GONNA keep hanging around if any more money but this time Samuel Go away take out nine thousand dollars in cash. Oh but that's not what you asked take got nine thousand dollars another another check two thousand dollars another thousand dollar check and I'll get out of your life forever I promise. Oh Oh okay okay are you could buy for good bye bye. I why am hear her what you said you were going to go away. I know I lied right me. GimMe cash thousand dollars. Oh how much nine seven. No nive live what. 'cause I actually event I I ask you that many times no is no 'cause five was too. Yeah eventually. It's nine okay. Because they gave you accept that it's not it's only seven thousand one two thousand dollar check over my seven thousand dollars okay in cash so it knows five five thousand dollars but in the end after you've asked me for this I will miscount okay. Okay so so yeah. I'll okay so come with me to the bank. Then we'll give you five thousand dollars in cash to hide though. Sure while you do that. That makes sense. Okay give me the money now. Okay but now you're going to go away forever on issue. God I've got all I needed. Sorry Okay Aren't you happy. I killed your uncle. You know it's exactly like my dad. Who we it was an abuser? And your uncle's mean but us. Rude would you please just like leave with my money. Okay goodbye forever by. Hey roomy your aunt gave me a room no You know what I use the money you gave me to pay for rent. No have have you ever so you gave my aunt. Yeah your hand has your money now. Okay I like but I like my aunt well not grant. You seem to genuinely like you're because guess what she actually asked me questions. She pays attention to me. She likes me and I like her. I like her cooking. I I love to eat everything even when your bitch ass dead uncle is asking me if I want to eat the plate to. Yeah so actually. I'm glad that you brought this up about. I'm man because I had a question and this kind of ties into me asking you why So do you remember that part of the book when you weren't there and and my bitch dead uncle was talking about how your hair is so crazy white. Yeah and then my aunt said something cryptic about about her about her sister or somebody having white hair like that and being out for her and she's like poor we're Andrea. Yeah are you related to her. No okay what you could be could be. I guess you could be but we never address it. This could be on down. What is that way because I heard about you or we cousins or cousins? Okay but then. Why didn't you say that in the book? It never comes out that you never say why in the book for me. It has because it seems like you came into that diner with intent. Here's what I I haven't everywhere. I go in eighteen creeps listeners. Knowledge is power. And when you know more you can make better decisions for your body your health and and your future. There aren't many decisions bigger than having a child but for many people. Their fertility is a big question. Mark if you want more information about your ability to get pregnant you need modern fertility. Modern fertility is a quick and easy hormone tests. That you can take out home whether you're thinking of trying for a baby now or you want to know your options options for the future. Speaking as someone who my future is a huge question mark I just WanNa know your results are delivered within ten days and and your personalized dashboard. 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You didn't enroll in my school. Came to my diner when you asked me about. Like what home room I was in. I was tripping because I don't even know what to say and then I really provided the answer which was easy. 'cause like there's tall teachers. Yeah I was Kinda fucked fuck though because then you're like Mr so and so and I was like yeah and you're like that's a sophomore teacher so then I had to pretend they somehow put me in a sophomore class with that. I was kind of impressed. Crest that you use that as a reason why you weren't in there yeah. I thought that was pretty good. Yeah so do you remember when we built a snowman yes and then you like got really scared because I like locked in off. Yeah fucking head off. Yeah that was that was hor- shadowing yeah. Okay Oh yeah hey you know that part. Yeah I as a question where you bury me alive in a snowman somehow. Yeah how I so okay. I'll just ask all so to start off was I in a box. You know you're in a bag. I wasn't a bad. We're GONNA bag so I was in a bad tarp. I don't think I was though I think who's just didn't and snow. Okay so you might have been hacked me in so tight that somehow yeah I could still breathe question so but like I couldn't move. Yeah so my hands were tied. Here's what but I reached my later that you always have on united never tried out for. Okay yes I this. This is what we did. I block you on the head what did I do. Yeah you thanked me and I woke up and I was a senior showman while so when I was making that Snowman I was okay I it was like really getting off on imagining that you were inside it I was thinking Oh question yeah is your nickname snowman. I'm clear I don't think you're here's a nickname is just it happens you know. It doesn't matter where it comes from. It could come from you come from people around you. I nine times out of ten. It comes from yourself really bums me. Yeah it's okay but you know what you carry you carried I passed the baton and you took it. So who's responsible really. That's fair because you called me because I was a person you just May. Who even after found found out your name calling US names? Like breathe bill normalize. Hey Bill but then I still call G. Snowman. Yeah on me because I'm so hot you're so because just you have white hair white hair and black eyes and headscarf so okay so back bar. I got bombed. I woke up in a snowman. Ask Seemingly Noth- thing else. How do you keep me stood up straight while for so long so I because I went back? Yeah I went back and I read what happened and your holiday times and I'm pretty sure there. There was no bag okay so again. We steered me no. I'm remembering now. There was a bag. There's no I was just in snow and I was. You know honestly. I was wishing so bad that there was a bag that I remember that there was so what happened was I had you right. Okay I was bombed your. You're banked and then I took like you know those rakes that have like actually no. I didn't do a rake. I had like a really long stick and I stood stood you up next to the state like you know when when you guide a plant. That's growing yes. I stood you up next to the okay and then I started packing snow around around you or until I got to like where your belly button is. We are tight in there Pulled the stick out. Oh Quick Snowman yet question. This took hours asking. Yeah that was. That is a good question. I'm glad that you just how long say okay so you were Out For three days. Okay it was okay. You kept like almost weirdos. I wasn't see I would watch. Your is is when they were like flicker right away. Bonk bonk again Romney. Did you think like twenty seven. Oh that explains why. I'm so dumb. Yeah you're really dumb but I didn't start out that's smart to begin with so it's like yeah like if floors already dirty and you throw like tomato on the floor. What's GonNa Happen Nothing? It's already dirty. Then you've got a tomato. He floor then you have tomato dirt. Who cares okay? So all right so my question was going to be you. Steer me up on a stick or was Kelly. Here's what I'm going to tell you or was that Kelly reasoning that something like that. You're gonNA tell you or or did you snowman tie media stick. Here's what I'm GonNa tell you. Yes remember when I said that you were in a bag. Yes and that would make it easier. Yeah and that's why I was remembering it right right right. I think this is what happened with the stick. You know stick. There was no. It was a mistake what happened was it actually took me seven days because you did keep. Yeah I cut cut like being over. I have bones but they have joints. Yeah I mean I am I am. Snowman does not assume because that's interesting because you're not supernatural. I'm not supernatural been snowman yeah and I was just snow and I could breathe so what I find interesting instead. Our woke up in a snowman that you've built around. That was so tight. Yeah that you move. My natural body heat was not melting. It no no now and I could breathe somehow so I guess I was also surrounded in a bubble. Yeah and you were. This was my mistake state because I really never made a snowman around a person before that was my mistake. Okay but there was room for you to breathe and even tied your hands room for you to move your your hands to light your lighter. Yeah which again my mistake you show me your lighter I asked you about it chows lighter. You're like Dad's lighter. Yeah but but I didn't know it were also how to use the lighter. Yeah I burned a little hole in this. Yeah Yeah you burn a little home the snowman and then I punched through that hole. But here's the thing like a what surprised me right as an outsider. Yes because Is You know I built a snowman. Then I just stood there and watched Ya know man which was another couple of days here except it wasn't except except it wasn't lowercase our case. So what's weird to me is if there. Are Somebody listening to US having this conversation. I don't want them to get confusing thing. Yeah in my mind mind like you know. Watch part number rails feels like days. I see this was like an hour's situation. Yeah maybe thirty minutes maybe on us. Maybe maybe ten and it's hard to say short we don't did. I hit you. Twenty seven times on the head a- once could be either it could be in reality it is one but it felt like yeah seven. The army's retired yet because otherwise how was out for so long ago. I I'm I know that I'm like maybe overly focused on this why wasn't my body melting the snow. Well I actually will were standing up. I do think that Just as your jacket insulates you from the outside. It insulates the outside from you. Granted I believe what about my face enhance. Yeah you're facing hand. Yeah but I think if there's enough snow yeah did you pack it that I know. Yeah truth is yours. Eat My way out. I think you could have or just like done. The worm and gotten out you know what I mean. I don't need my hands. And why did you realize how would I burn a hole. Yeah with the lighter instead of just like like a hollowing out out. Yeah 'cause then if it was that thing to me that's what was meant by whole maybe an area for you to move in but that's the other thing thing is that like the idea of my hand out. The will that was. That was other confusion that I had as an outsider. Yeah right was. How did I manage to make the snowmen snowman around you? Yeah do you mind for you to have enough room to like wind up to punch your way out. Yeah like the space around your body. I feel like yeah. Yeah dump to come out of the snowman. That's what I mean. Do you mind if I read a written account of what happened to me okay. soo-bok the head. Yeah Yeah Oh God everything wages. Remind me you balked me on the head. I don't know because I got March uh-huh oh it was from behind you. I think I would probably just use. Maybe we all remember what like an emmy. Maybe just I I thank you had that Emmy on you. Yeah and walked me with it. Yeah I mean that you had in your car. Yeah Yeah that was for this Black Ford Taurus. Yano though I don't have a car. You don't have a car my car. But we didn't bring back the seat belting. No we didn't bring back the seat belt thing because there wasn't ben was just moving slowly. I think so I did sit in that seat and then nothing happened even though I felt something would because of the seat belt but it didn't okay so so is in there. I opened my eyes but everything was black. Thought it was blind for a second. I tried to move. Oh you know why this is why I thought I put a bag around you. Yeah because you would think white. You'd think it would be wait is it nighttime was me we again. I'm sorry to ask you this as you were no. It's okay I'm I'm going through the written account. Yeah so you kind Brian View. It's refreshing your memory so honestly if I were you I'd be insulted that the person who did this to me doesn't remember these details. I'm sorry if I were a smarter you would curson. I would maybe be more insulted but I'm just like so baffled by you. You're such a criminal mastermind. Yeah to me on one channel seven I wrote you you are saying was to kill my uncle. Honestly here's my question to you. Yeah why did you think I would leave you you alone because you said so multiple time. Yeah you told me that you would honestly this does not usually work. I'm shocked at this has worked with you because we don't people just when people say things just like what's crazy to me. Is that like you seem to have like your head on your shoulders. When you're dealing with your bitch asked ankle? Yeah but like literally anybody else. Something happens you're very I can explain that You're gorgeous oh you're freak freak White Hair with your tan skin just died darkness. Shark is yeah is Gorgeous uh-huh and so I'm just blinded by just so turned on and say that my scarf is a-plus corden features. Yeah Yeah I would say it's a plus what about my corncob pipe corncob pie pretty hot. Also your oversized fifties coat. Yes you're great oversights. In mice go frosty the snowman oversized fifties. Yeah Yeah Oh but you're not a literal snowman. Oh also I don't seem affected by the cold right. That's kind of cool but you're not a literal snowman no in fact. My Skin is very hot. Have you noticed that your already more. I think to myself every time I come contact with your skin. I'm like that's warm warm. You know what I did drive. I have a car to pick you up one time. Do you remember. You said you were owed it. Yeah I didn't I did grow. Well I stole it but I mean you can understand that I did right. 'cause like if you're telling me that yes. Oh my God if you told me something it must I cannot believe I tied myself through murder to you. Okay okay so you said that you would tell the police. Oh my God. That's why I wrote you that check and so therefore and therefore they would know. Wow so okay you open your eyes they would hear you say that they would believe you. Because when PBS way you say it except for if you're the bitch dead uncle yeah except for. If you're my uncle I hated the dead ass bitch and dead S.. Pitch Crazy when I told you that I killed your Jonquil. Do you like really sincerely believe that. It was a joke or fake out I did. Isn't that crazy it's really. I thought ought that you're joking. Yeah even though nothing about your demeanor suggested that I've never joked ever ever Well you haven't somethin'. Here's what's interesting about you is how normal your with my long white hair short plays really normal and tanned skin and easy to talk to. Yeah am I remembering. I'm a good dancer. Weird and we played all those how we like had fun in played games and like we. Did you said that you would be Parson Brown and Mary. We like like yeah. Yeah but like you could use a job if you're around. Yeah or when you're in town. Yeah later then later on you perspire perspire. Because it's so warm because we're DRI way a fire. Yeah Oh underlying underling. Conspire conspire conspire as we dream by the fire conspires unafraid. The plans that we made this whole time. We is it that they're talking about sweating next to the fire conspiring to in a conspiracy to do all those through on our plans. I'm just going to check what we were. I am telling you right now that if we were in fact perspiring okay. Yeah we were conspiring picturing. It was a really hot by that fire and getting flies flies wrenched flops. We were outside. It was very cold. Let's give it to the plans. We made fire anyway. We were pretending you were person Brett Brown and then you ask if we're ready and I was like no man. Yeah but you can do do the job when you're here in town and then you didn't kill my uncle and that I guess why I thought police would believe. He strangled him with a scar. So we am. I correct in remembering the I am a good dancer answer. Yes you are rising good answer and didn't pick up the fifties co kind of midway through aren't ruling eating other thank you but I think in the in the field who maybe a child feel along with my scarf. Yeah working always eating carrots. I was always always like as eating them. I would miss and hit myself minnows. They then we'd laugh and laugh and say oh snowman. Oh yes so anyway back to me being blind okay so you open your eyes okay. Dark which is confusing because it was dark it would. I couldn't move but I'm not blind. I'm inside something and I I write. I write like buried alive but I'm wrapped in something so I thought back so I thought bag or tar. Yeah or cloth breath honestly soda by which you know crazy but so so I tried to move my hands. Yeah but the shock of the pain made me stop because they were still tied and now my feet were tied to my hands. I got bogged. My hands are tied on a view that was really dumb on my part if I did. That's good question back a hadn't you will be chronic punched through. Okay okay okay so might know. My hands are behind me okay. Well good for time me. How'd you fucking get out? You Balked Ben. He's unconscious in that room. You're renting for my aunt. You know what I should've killed Ben. y'All should oh I should have killed Ben like I don't know what I was thinking like. That's a loose end. Well you had me to contend with because you didn't didn't FUNC- me only blocked by. Yeah but off page you tight me up okay but we just cut to being tied up okay easier that way so my hands are tied behind me. Yeah and now my feet are tied as well. But I don't know where I am. Where Am I? It's very hard to breathe. The air was cold but stale. I wasn't blind was implying. I hadn't gone crazy. You wrapped me in something hard and cold and that's what you wrapped me in when I said I'm wrapped inside. Yeah it was that it was hard and cold and I couldn't move and I can't break out I'm trying. I'm trying to try and train. I hear a scraping sound from somewhere outside vis shell. I'm in so I think you know what I feel and pounding. Yeah I think you woke up while I was still doing that I did so. You're in the process yeah. I'm pretty sure just backing me and snow. Here's what I'm going to tell you what I seem to be standing up. Yeah because it's a certain point I just let gravity kick around. Thank I can just so so okay. I'll continue and then we'll we'll keep just So I'm hearing you continue to Yeah it's so cold bears because I thought you were asleep this whole time. No no no. At that moment you were still making. I'm packed snow. You've packed me in snow. I'm inside a snowman and it seems to be. I am not in a cloth of any kind. You're crazy I know and you're putting on the finishing touches. I'm basically living snow mummy I wish I in the under will be gone because for some reason the snow in front of my face not melting. Yeah you'd think thank you could just like we're just like I'd be very cold. Obviously yeah but like I am still wearing clothes. I regret trying to do trying to move to to to do a whole like circus of this. I should have dislike. Put you in a snowbank. I don't know I am really wondering why you did it. I I think I was trying to the area accenture. Yeah we'll all you really. You're very committed to the Savak grand funk brand. I told you anymore snowman. That's the fucking problem problem. You've got this. You have a brand and you've committed to hard to it I told you what is my name. Brave Bill Bill Bill Bill Bill Jeffers getting free immediately asks. If it's Hungarian. Yeah I don't know what the fuck he's talking about so I'm Sicilian Selanne. So I'm a I'm a dead snow me. Yeah no one's GonNa find my body until the snow melts. I try leaning forward. Maybe I can fall you fall out of it. No it was packed too tightly. I couldn't move at all. You seem to have left now. I can't hear you I was just quietly okay. Can I tell you something. Yes this man did not look good. I bet and I was looking at it and I was like kind of regretting like it. Didn't look kind of lumpy honestly. It just looked like a thumb. It didn't even look like it wasn't like three pieces. It was just a one long-term one long thumb and I was like this. Is You even have time to give me like mountains up and down anything on you so I just like stuck like a stone like there was like one rock and I was like there's the mouth and that was it. I wonder if you even had time to do that because I've already woken up. I don't think you know I'm usually. Here's here's the thing That's don't fell off I. Yeah Yeah because I was in a rush so anyway at that time that you probably like just thinking. I was feeling very disappointed. I was standing there looking at snow foam. Yeah and feeling really embarrassed and like thinking about Oh i should have killed Ben. Yeah but I couldn't leave. Whatever I'm twist? I'm trying to twist my wrists. I I am wondering where you are. You're right outside I twist my wrists from side to side even though it hurts on. Oh the rope gives gives a little. I'm surprised by that. I feel really embarrassed about living. It's loosening it's behind me okay. So now my right hand is free. I move around the fingers which means I am not. I'm not wearing gloves so the snow should continue to Malta around me. That does not seem to be right. I try to raise my arm. Can't you've packed it so tightly you heard me packing it and then I remember the butane lighter that I've carried around for thirteen years. That may or may not work at Mar and it is the I.. Honest laugh often. It is plastic lighter so so I can't quite get to it. I'm trying to get to a my hand. Okay I've gotten in my hand in my pocket. I grip the lighter. I pull it out a raise it just a little. I point the head of the lighter away from me and toward the snow. Almost drop it. Oh you know there was some rustling around in there that I should have kind of gotten hip to but I was busy like thinking about Ben and like yeah I just was like or was part of like your kink to watch me. Try to sky did have one or the whole time. I I'M NOT GONNA lie about that. Okay I did okay. That doesn't surprise me because you've got a real thing about the snowman shit. Yeah I know yeah okay so so I was like ooh she's snowman come to life. I was hype. We are so cold hot so called. It's hot I was really excited and into to it. Could've put a stove. Pipe hat on you. You know what I gotta say. I'm amazed you weren't wearing one this whole book. Now that you mention it. It's you nine. Oh really dropped the ball there. Why did I invest in the fucking fifties Josh Seven? At least smoking. I know at least which I mean. I guess you need a jacket I know but so I pull up the lighter. I pointed at the snow and then it flames and on I hold it against the snow till it Burns through leaving a small hole and I raise it a bit and the whole enlarges and when it's big enough I make a fist. Your hands in front of you at this point my right hand okay. The lush weren't pinned down. Snow is passed. You make Komo Make Punch through the snow on that side of the snowman crumbles which you're now seeing I I keep pushing I'm out I'm free. I bent down to untie my feet and I go oh you yeah and you know what Shaquille you the hard way this. There's been so much like sexier and cooler the way I did it with knock but you were fully expecting me to die in that snowman and I can only presume get off on it. So it is now definite that you just managed to Stanley Upright. Impact me yeah tight we in snow so much so that I stood up straight Even though I was unconscious oh hello teen creeps listeners. Is there something interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals problem of the week right now for Kelly I am ceiling. Oh I'm dealing with the law in my personal life like with my family right now but also I making talking try. You know constantly trying to make moves in my career and I'm feeling guilt for either feeling happy about something that's in my career or stressed about something in my career when at at the same time you know maybe something really bad or really serious happening in my personal life with my family. It's like oh I feel guilty for feeling both of those things but guess what you're allowed to feel both things. You can feel multiple things at once. That's actually something that Lindsey text me when I was telling her this That I was feeling this. And it's a really good mantra to live by. But we all need more than just texting Lindsey problems and then hoping that she'd text you An amazing mantra that changes your life. Insert better help. Because guess what Y'all we all need therapy we'll all benefit from it don't ever think about you know. Oh I don't need David or I'm smarter than Interro. I'm I don't want to do there because I'm afraid. Because what if I crack myself open I will not be able to put myself back together because all of this is a a misconception about therapy there is helpful for anyone regardless of their mental health. Goals better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional personal therapist. You can start communicating under twenty four hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self help. It's professional counseling done securely online. There's a broad range of expertise. Not Sound better helps counselor network which may not be locally available in many areas this service is available for clients worldwide. You can log into your account anytime and send a message to your counselor. You'll get timely and thoughtful responses plus you can schedule weekly video or phone sessions so you won't ever have to sit in an uncomfortable waiting room as with traditional therapy and that's something that kind of has been In the past a block from me seeking therapy which is like. Why don't have time to like go across town and like see a bunch of different therapies? And what if it doesn't workout Bobby Blueberry Blah excuses excuses excuses. Better help is committed to facilitating great therapeutic matches so they make it easy and free to change counselors if needed. It's more affordable than traditional offline counseling and financial aid is available visit their website and read their testimonials that are posted daily visit better help dot com slash slash teen creeps. That's better H E L P dot com slash teen creeps and join the over seven hundred thousand people taking charge of their mental health with the help of of an experienced professional special offer for teen creeps listeners. Get Ten percent off your first month at better help dot com slash teen creeps. Hello teen creeps listeners. Yes I want to tell you about a brand new podcast that you have to listen to right now for free on spotify. It's the National Lampoon Radio hour the podcast and it's the brand new hilarious sketch. Show from national lampoon if this show sounds familiar it's because it's a reboot of the iconic nineteen seventies radio sketch show where comedy legends like Gilda Radner Bill Murray and John Belushi got their start but this time the radio hour is coming to you via podcast and features brand new sketches characters and dance songs performed by the next wave of incredible comedic talent. Some of your favorite on faves like Cole Escola. Joe firestone. Rachel pilgrim maeve higgins Martin Bano Aaron Jackson Laura Ramirez Brett Davis Meghan Salter and Alex English. Plus there are fantastic. Guest appearances from. Amy Sedaris Rachel Draft Chris. Chris gathered and more. It's truly great. Has Everything you want out of a sketch. Show seriously concussed cheerleaders hot air balloon. Assassins Ninety eight year old cabaret singers. Everything so please go check out the National Lampoon Radio Hour the podcast for free on spotify. Today okay go to spotify and listen for free era era. The news can can be complicated. Healthcare in my view government has decided to suspend with Ukraine's way too complex for you to understand understand. Sometimes police say that the man had died and when someone dies that is bad. That's why starting Wednesday January twenty ninth the onion. We'll be launching the topical Daily News podcast hosted by me Leslie Price. We'll bring you the most relevant stories of the day. This trade war is just another pissing into each others mouth contest between world leaders and some. That hasn't even happened yet. Donald Trump announced placeholder here today and Insert Democrat here is insert emotion featuring in depth reporting. Just a few Moments of your time senator please to my wife with hard hitting questions. Is this the most beautiful thing I've ever heard. Yes it is an unparalleled analysis. Unfortunately currently it looks like we're all GonNa die. I see bringing you the news other podcasts or simply too afraid to cover. Aw Join US each day and we'll hold your pathetic little hand through the endless cycle of bullshit. That is today's news from the onion and onion public radio. This is is the topical premiering Wednesday January twenty nine. It's crazy like that was my plan right. like yes no. Because you've got that whole snowman thing I guess I guess I just I think I probably would have practice making snowmen for am really curious as to why you're absolute absolute ultimate and game was okay. You want to hear him just killing. Yes okay okay you get in there. Yeah I bill dunaway on. I'm so sorry sorry I'm so sorry yeah I mean killing my uncle oh well it was all part of this ready okay. I meet a girl. She's rich she's got a- An uncle a bitch uncle but again so you didn't know about me beforehand. This was all just like Oh what opportunity. Well I had a plan because I know that you you work you and I wanted to date you and we had chemistry so like the women I met. You always like she's the one I'm going to do it so I started isn't just okay. Just wait okay. She's got a bitch uncle. Your effect out. Kill the bitch uncle. Yeah then I'm GonNa get you into a game of like money cat-and-mouse where am am. I can't leave. I build up the tension right right right right Put you inside of a snowman. Yeah build snow around did you okay. You're burning a little hole. You're getting ready to punch your way out I get right in front of that And pulled on my pants and bend over and they'll visiting my asshole so I ended up getting to be. Oh Oh man okay all right. So here's all right. So here's my question. Now Yeah why did you have to the uncle and nine black bail out of the plan. I needed you to to hate me but then also want me okay. Oh that's part that's part in the energy of it needs to be an easy to be you that I had to have that kind of energy on the other side. Yeah Okay I needed a Boo k blasted into another dimension. H- you know it's crazy. What makes perfect sense? Thank you I mean. It's like we're together. Yeah so what is happening intimate. Do the cops go the cops come and they get you owe because of that Fucker ben that I didn't kill. Oh I light you on fire. Oh my God already which luckily for me Burns that check in your pocket. Yeah and I was. The only evidence was the only evidence. The just airtight evidence. That I definitely paid you to do my uncle which the police really sort of believed utterly can you believe that that black tourists that was falling list was an FBI agent? That was trying to get me. I yes okay you know what I sat down and thought about it afterward. Yeah yes see for me. It's just you're in the you're in the thick of it. You think no one can get you. That's true because your plan woulda worked out if stupid bending get in the way so but you really aren't related to me. I or maybe maybe but it's possible. Yeah you know that we've been doing this for forty five minutes what bit. I don't know what you're talking. I'm so sorry. Why must continue to torture me snowman? I'm sorry I shouldn't sending you never make any sense. It's because I'm such a criminal mastermind. Yes that my criminal mastermind plan of strangling your uncle onto okay. I'm training let me see if I can remember what my aunt said about that family member. WH- The light rain to remember. You're trying to remember. Remember remember remember. Remember Oh yeah. He is driving a Toyota. Goethe's Celica by me new me. I was driving but it wasn't mine. I definitely stole it. I told you friggin lighted yeah euro. Oh Liar Liar He remember how many fake out dreams. I have a lot of fake out drinks. Oh Yeah like like intricate dreams about fantasies. Yeah Yeah Yeah you know what I kind of thought was going to happen with us. What I thought that you you were gonNA be a killer like I? I thought maybe you could be one or or. Here's what I thought. I thought that the fake out was going to be that you were the killer and you were doing it in your fucking thing. But then it wasn't going to be you can be someone else that was not me interested but it was me it. was you snowman I am just like so surprise with myself for just continuing to call you snowman. mm-hmm yeah I don't know you never mentioned it. I hear book. Also you don't ever question it. Yep Don't at all. Aw Dang legally remember what my aunt said. It's also weird when you refer to me as snowman to your friends who like have met. Let me. It's also weird that I call you that to my aunt and uncle. It's also crying kind of weird that I never ask you what your real name is. Yeah that is weird but convenient for me it is we build. We built that snowman like did you think that your aunt was talking about like maybe my mom or something and she was like troubled. Yes I did yeah I thought she was talking about like Oh poor. Aunt whatever because Because has her husband was killed by her son. Yeah I thought her related possibly to snow make you related. Poss- believed leaked me. Yeah and that's the Kinda creepy incests plotline I can get behind. That's because it's a question because it was just kissing before for knowing kissing before knowing kissing before knowing that helps. Yeah again. I do not support St- know where the Shit Shit is that part in your memory. Yeah I'm searching my memory searching searching wholesome. Burt Do you remember that part snowman. I'm trying to remember it but I only have two specific memories logged. And they're not not that I remember. Okay here's what I remember from like hearing it in the wind that your aunt was like you know my so and so had hair like that penny went out into her. Yeah and then. You're like that's weird anyway. Yeah okay well. Well I truly cannot remember for my vague recollection. It was that it was that she knew someone that was like her sister or her cousin. Yeah that had unfortunate ending yet. It seemed like she's like Oh poor. Poor old Alicia or not. And then you're like mildly questioning it but then got over it really quickly and didn't think to ask at all. Yeah funny how like no one followed up on that Including our Lord and Saviour Rl Stein. Yeah Oh oh I think maybe I remembered okay. It was worth me trying to remember because this was just so weird. How this number got connected to to you? Yeah So we're eating dinner. Yeah my uncles being a real bitch. Yeah alive though a real live bitch. Yeah and he's asking me if I'm going out with him again with me you okay and my bitch uncle says something wrong with that boy that white hair. It's not outright must be nutritional or something and then. My Aunt Belle said my cousin Adel had white hair from the time she was twelve. And then my bitch arkell James said something wrong with her too and then my aunt Belle said mysteriously poured Adele and then I never asked her about it. We'll get the you remember that and it's like I wonder if you have have a connection. And maybe that's why you're so nice tour. I wonder maybe do our is that it. I don't think listen o'malley's in the right now. Yeah no oh I think that sometimes our creator just kind of leaves. I want things if our creator her planned on bringing us back man it is possible. I feel like my stories done. You know what I mean like I've given all I don't know I still. I'll have a lot of unanswered question. There are questions. Here's my worry about my staff. I know that I'm very sexy to you. Yes I don't know how compelling I am to the what you know what I mean. No all of these features are universally beloved. I just I feel like I look like Robert durst. No and I don't know who that is. She's like a little little shark boy. Oh I forgot just look like a shark with a wig on it. Oh hot right. Everybody loves a shark in you. Know how there's like. There's a knife to every spoon or something like that. What's that like a you know? There's like a through soon every four or something like that. Anyway I think I I think I think I should. I shouldn't try to kill you. That was dumb. I'm just sad because because yeah I think if I had asked you fist me in the ass through snowman you would've said yes and I should've asked you needed that energy like you said so. If you needed that energy I got it. Yeah Shit See. I really shouldn't affect us up and you should know I'm in fucking jail. I know we have pledged through the glass. Yeah this is a really long visit. They let us have their guards. Don't give a shit about what I knew. No thank you for talking to me though. Thank you for talking to me. I appreciate it. I get no visitors. There's yeah because you have no back story. Yeah so who would be you. It's almost as if I appeared out of nowhere to serve your story. Sorry yeah kind of Thanks you. How's your aunt by the way she's fine? She's confused. Is she better off for not having that guy in her life anymore honestly Yeah I however I spent all my trust fund already. Yeah I I could see that what had happened wise. I bought new clothes and then I kept giving this guy money. Yeah Oh that was you you you were there for that. Yep a small little that money in my ass. Oh so you still have it. Yeah I still have it man. I don't I'll tell don't tell anyone okay but just because you told me exactly and that's snowman. That was snowman. Well it may just as much sense just now. Yeah as it did reading. Yeah Yeah it's a quick read. It was a quick read kind of a fun read because it was so a crazy. Stop laughing the snowman or if I was like he's not he's not hot he's dressed like can you just look like a snowman and she's like I've just his those either part I could not stop laughing because she keeps talking about howdy. Howdy is and she's like his white hair and unique features are just like anything I've ever seen? I'm like yeah. Because he's walking freak book should be called this shirk the shark in a wig shark in a wig. Yeah very confusing. Yeah really confusing I Dunno give it a read if you want a winter read. It's it's easy it's fast. A brisk winter read. Yeah thank you so much for listening. What are we you doing? Oh next week we are talking about the movie phenomena starring Jennifer Connelly Right. I believe so I you think so. Let me look at my thing. My friends and fellow infinity train writer. Justin Michael Yeah. Dario Fo's phenomena one of my favorite movies. ooh Yeah thank you so much for listening If you want to help support our show You can leave us a happy review. You can set your settings to mic download. You can tell French on enemy Tells him family about our show. If you'd like to support us With your pocketbook you can become a patron at he. TRIAN DOT COM slash teen creeps. And we'd like to give a special shout out to our fifteen dollar. Career are patriotic producers. Thank you Ashley. Fritz Claire More Danny Emily Pooling Karen Lewis Kelly. Burn Christina. Landry Desmond Mandalay. Wool Schlaeger Dr Michael Eunice. Miguel Camacho Molly Marx wrote Kawahara. Sarah Jagger's Sarah Michelle Sasha Gibson Bolinger Toria Beck and Wendy Bartos. Thank you so so much everyone. Thank you wolf trap. He goes next time. Yeah keep it creepy. This has been a forever production executive produced by Kelli nugent. Lindsey Kaitai Redcowmn Joselito and Alex Ramsey. For more original podcasts. Please visit driver dog podcasts. Dot Com and subscribe to our show on Apple podcasts. spotify or wherever where you get your podcasts. Keep up with the latest forever dog news by following us on twitter instagram at forever dog team and liking our page on facebook.

Justin Michael Yeah Ben Ben Heather Heather Kelly nugent Rl Stein US Robert Durst G. Snowman Guardian Kim Cam Emmy spotify Lindsay Prince Gee Bill Bill Bill Bill Bill Jeffe Samuel Snow Parson Brown
Caroline B. Cooney's The Stranger

Teen Creeps

1:17:59 hr | 10 months ago

Caroline B. Cooney's The Stranger

"He's not like all the other guys airline being boonies springer welcome to teen creeps. The PODCAST DISCUSSES TRASHY Teen Horror. Would've your host Lindsay Cape Die. I'm one of your hosts Kelly nugent agent Carolina Bhikhuni. The Stranger that tagline is perfect is true and also doesn't work at all no but I like it because it's instead of like I'm not like other girls. Yeah he's not like other. It's not like other guys as well. I mean he isn't for a lot of racing's no other guys. This is none. I mean it is so what did did you take. This book was going to be. I thought he was like a ghost or something or like maybe like well read the back of the book. I read the blurb job or whatnot I because listeners as it would be helpful to know what we were going offers of from the first moment she sees him in Class Nicoletta is drawn to jethro fascinated by his dark mysterious faith she she is attracted yet repelled. Interested but frayed spelled wrong becomes obsessed unable to think of anything but this strange boy do doing but she knows so little about him until she follows him to a deserted cave on the edge of town and learns the truth Jethro is not like the others no not at all. He has a terrifying secret a secret. No one must ever find out. So I'm I'm trying to think what I thought his secret could've been. I thought he was just like you need to see tireder. I laid it was going to be a lot more down down to Earth. I didn't think it was going to be so magical. Yeah I didn't think it was gonNA turn out that. He was a cave rock. He is a caveman. But not in the way you think not like that kind of came back. He is not a man who lives in a cave. We'll technically who lives in a cave but more more so he is a manmade out of cave. Yeah he's a man. Cave is a cave who is a man. Yeah inaudible cave not yet a man not yet man. He first of all sign in very hot he he sounds like artsy and brooding again hot Yeah and I did love that so okay I we should just get it straight. That Nicoletta used to be part of an elite corus group called magical singers who civic kind Yes coral group. It's very it's like medieval yet. Music yes they drive so they evil art. She has beautiful golden hair that she just pound honestly as a nerd. I was like way into the hell. Yeah I was like wow I wish this is just your. Here's the thing as someone who literally just two days ago was researching a Ping witcher school in Poland. And I was like this looks cool as someone who also exists in the world. I was like girls on nerd. I yeah because I am. She's like huge to be as well. Stunning really is treated like they are cool. No well the yeah yeah. I think that they are very elite. very exclusive And also like they do not date the Madrigal's donate they. They don't date which is why the Second Nicoletta is out. Crystals like on it. Yeah Crystal Hana's magical boy hottest and only magical boy Oy he touches and kisses everyone in a romantic very physically Yeah so he hikes kissing you know how any theater kitten high school more college. It's all about like just like draping yourselves all over over each other. 'cause you're like so are so and you're so like emotionally. Oh pain and you're just like like hormones are pumping through your blood because Searching for an excuse to physical contact with the sex is normal for me. I'm just naturally this touchy punching me while you're like I won't Christo Short for Christopher. Yeah Christo is saying Christo. Though I was increased Christo sounds more fun only because I know three's those okay so I think it was like I think they do spell their names with a K.. So it's different I We'll go with Christo because We can he. Why not increase? Do Do if you're gonna be that spelled name name go for it if you're going to be a C. H. R. I S. T. O. R. East. If if you're not going to be a Chris if you're not gonNA Christopher if you're not going to be a toe for Cristo and he is if yourself that gift and he hugs and kisses. Everyone says she doesn't really realize that he has a thing for her. And then she gets replaced on the Madrigal's by and Marie was Louise. She's very boring looking girl and she's like She's not as pretty as me. Who is astonished? She's dull looking. She's dull brown brown hair and Brown eyes Unlike me my beautiful golden locks that Shimmer guy would color her. I don't remember her. I call her but I remember that she's very hot. Oh yeah okay. Except he's like Joe Biden all over everybody increased. Oh He's rubbing everyone's shoulders and kissing their hair he is it's on asked for touching when they're all into into it because they're basically theater yes they love it because he is very attractive they are attracted to him and they like them yes because he's like like this is the description he rub her shoulders and kissed her hair. Affection came easily decreased. Oh he distributed it to all the girls and they in turn were never without a smile or kiss is for him. But that was otherwise crease. Don't ever offered more never took more. But then Oh Anne Louise that's right But then like member when he asks her out and then he's like not touching her and she's like that means so much more because of with held Tut is the hottest touch of all all in pride and prejudice the current nightly one where he like like she's walking away and he suddenly is lifting her hands Jamalpur per into the carriage and then when he's walking away there's a close up on his hands and he's just like he's just young. He's very relaxing so hard like they're like the prudish touching so fiery that he had to shake it out of his hand. Here's what here's what I will admit I love a period apiece in which not touching touching is like the thing like they're like they're like oh I can't touch your shoulder but it's so odd so I I time forbidden forbid shoulder is on fire. Her shoulder radiated heat the fingertips at grazed like that is true though like one year really not thinking of someone in that way. You'll hear that they're just like not even thinking about physical affection you're showing them and then when you're trying to keep it cool though you're thinking about a nonstop. Es every single move you're like Oh okay wait my arms. Are this way here. And the new or there and this far away from me but like when you're not thinking about it and also she is like Luke warm warm about Christo as a person will know she I v likes him. She likes him. The only thing is now she has jeff thrown the problem is jeff throws throw throws in her art appreciation class which she has to take instead of magical practice yet. I liked the school administrator. Being like if I were you I would take study skills so mess you just like stairs in dead in the eye and is like art appreciation had she. I'm not been that stubborn. She wouldn't 'em JETHRO. And then jeff throws life would not have been changed forever. What is JETHRO Tull? There's a person is it a banned. It's banned okay. Yeah great thank you happy to truly anytime. Thanks so just throw like refuses now. Just throw does a lot of the no touching ching like Victorian era lake. Yes I'm very proper like when she touches his hand he's like steering his own hand like she's touched me. I loved all all the descriptions of like he touching his cheek as though he'd never touched a cheek before yes when she's like he moved his face a lot. It was almost just as if he was new to wearing that face like bodies. I know where this is going me neither. You've never read this book. No Oh it was good. I liked it was good. Writing Innis specially already was like thumbs up Caroline B Cooney. Obviously but this was really good. It was really good. No I raced through this one. I was like yeah. What's going to happen? I know cause the drama was like very strange but also like like it was like magical realism. It was very weird. Yes like the time when she goes to the dance with Christo I it. Was your sheets. Like takes him into the woods and then she's just like dancing with the woods themselves so she's like like she's okay the second that she meets meets so I feel like it's like the same day that crystals like do you want to go out with me and she's like. Oh Wow I didn't even know this sure and then like jeff throws there and she's like Oh my God Throw as A. She's like entrance by JETHRO. Can't pay attention to Christo time flies. They go to some kind of lake off. Campus dance happening at the diner. No it's like some how the sounded so late eighties early nineties and I think the book quals ninety-three but it sounded so very as usual sounded very fifties. Yeah it's like a boy invites you to a like such her looking like a little something gallagher. Social I guess. Is this one win. Had when I was in seventh and eighth grade not in high school but there are these dances called Kodak and I was never allowed to go correct and I always wanted to go to Iraq and I remember my friend was allowed to go and so she started going my best friend. He's started going with this other guy who's like kind of bad and so then. She started getting cooler. And kinda started hanging out with the bad kids. And I was Kinda left behind. Yeah because my mom never let me go to these correct dances and I always just had such fantasies about what these correct dances were. I was like I bet you. There's so many cute boys they're and they're all like I just had this imagination of what a dance would be like. Yeah that was outside of the school dances because I was allowed to go to middle. School dances but it reminded me of that. where it's like this dance? That's like organized by not the school. It's like something else for kids or teens Secreto invites the team may be. So he's like Greece's like this dance and she's like okay. They go to the dance. She's dancing with him but she's also thinking of with the whole time then he's like driving her and she had followed. Jeff throw to this cave and gone the cave and had a very scary experience or saved her does he person. So there's this cave. She goes to art a previous. The only one who is a diamond in the rough She goes to art. Abbreviation sees JETHRO. The very first date stocks him immediately immediately immediately and then. I think it's the so that day that same day Christo it asked tur- out she follows. Jeff throw something like that follows jethro. She's she's like. Hey I'm gonNA talk your ear off about Madrigal's I can't can't stop myself. Do you want to come together tomorrow. And he likes sort of says yes like. She's on a totally sure like lunch. And she's like yes lunch anyway. We'll see you tomorrow. And he's got you know the concept is that you must not follow me here or again. You must promise. And she's like well I didn't and then and at lunch the next day Christo because she's agreed to go to the dance. He just assumes that there isn't together together Jeff Throw sees her. You're sitting with Cristo. And she's about to approach death-row. Oh Yeah and then we still so grabs her hand or some use like vagina blocking or whatever vert wave Vagina Blah Blah then. And she's like Oh highly clip. flitting right yeah. Yeah and then she alike turns to see jets. He's Gone Yep because he got the hand was like goodbye. It's for the best. It's for the best. 'cause I'm a cave person. And then after her school she ditches Cristo and then goes out to try to figure out where he headed in the woods then goes in the cave. The cave is very beautiful. At the opening she walks in walks in you slime. It's scary and then suddenly you fall Yelm you like fall forever yeah then a presence captures captures her and lifts her all the way back up but the presence is like a creepy smelly slimy monster. Yeah and it's like rocky and like woodsy and it's like grabbing her and then she is and that is sad is acumen and it's like you must leave. Oh you must promise. And she's like which said us. We're by nine putting into your together like he's still grows. He's so grows. I deserve this for not telling anyone where I was going. And then she gets home and she's like. Oh that was the scariest experience ever have to go back and figure out what that one Ooh so then she goes to this dance with Christo. I found the part where he asks her. Oh Yes yes dance She shocked. Oh It's yeah an Louise's the new girl who takes place. She shocked best-looking. Most your four boy in school because he also plays football. Oh yeah this is funny. One of the things magical spared you from was dating. So you're like Oh thank God. I often up-to-date more. I know she means it as in like Oh. The pressure's off by it does sound like no. Thank you MMA Blah Blah. Here it is. It's a fundraiser. And it is at top. Oh the town of famous restaurant. Oh Man we're in years past asked. Her father had taken her mother for special occasions like Valentine's Day or the their anniversary Nicoletta had never been there. It was not a place that people wasted on children and his Nicolette. His parents us and they use to live in a big fancy house and now they live in some dumb rant Ashok where she is to share a room with her sister. You know and now they're not even close because they hate each other so like basically poor who are They're pure they're your pure John. Cougar this dance. She's dancing with Greece. Joe She's a row by all she can take his throw. Jeff throw out. Gather this point. I think they've had a moment together. They have stor think I think at this point she even sort word of knows. He's a cave. Yeah Oh the caves guy. I think they've had a moment. Yeah they she went back. She found founded like somehow she like realized it was jethro but not before she watched death row just like let some hunters day. Oh yeah because JETHRO GAL routinely hunted. Yeah because people see him. They think he's a creature When he's like not being in the cave yeah and he oh he gets to look like a normal boy during the sunlight which he just figured out? Yeah which is. She's very vague all night and I will forgive that because who cares. Yeah who cares at this point. I don't care And then okay. So she's like had a moment with jeter but she's also had like a little bit Komo with Christo where he liked kissed her and she was like. I'll just pretend this chapter and like him and he's like Oh wow how I am falling for you. And she's like and then he's me also he's like let's go for a drive and she knows he wants to park and he wants to park on that dead end street because he followed her that one day which is where like JETRO is is because Jeff Lewis cave is kind of a little bit beyond the Dead End Street and Chris O.. is so like the way she describes him blinded with his is love for her that when he yeah she's stocks jethro back to the cave area increase those stocks her in his van back to the cave area and sees her her and talking and death. Rose like it's fine. I was just telling her to get the fuck Outta here because it's the actress and he's like Oh cool all give you a ride back. And so the only thing that registered to him was this would be a cool place to make out and not at all the fact that it's like Nicoletta is clearly in love with death row and does does not care about him. I took a photo of it because it was so funny because it was so like Christo is balking clueless. I I love how clueless he I love descriptions of the state of a teenager being in love. Hey there listeners Lindsey here with a message from one of our podcast. SPONSORS MINT MOBILE MINT mobile is a wireless airless phone and data plan. That's only fifteen dollars a month. It provides the same premium network coverage. You're used to but at a fraction of the cost because everything of online you've you've heard of banking online with no branches. I use that this is that but for phones. Mobile saves on retail locations overhead. Then passes though savings directly it to you. I have personally been using mobile for months. Now I haven't seen any difference in my coverage or data it's been great truly. It is just exactly likely what I had. But like seventy dollars cheaper. It's crazy. So cut your wireless down to just fifteen eighteen bucks a month with men mobile every plan comes with unlimited nationwide. Talk and text with mobile. You can stop paying for unlimited data. 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Area crease swung out of the van leaving the Motor Idling Promise Breath Jeff throw with a terrible force as if his as long as we're going to explode but she did not answer him increased. Oh she said do you shook his head. She introduced them using only first first name since she did not know Jessica's last name. The young men stared at each other. Warily creased our extended his right hand. They shook hands also warily as if they were about to be contestants in some dual. Well I'm glad you came said Joe throw his voice call now even bland. Would you mind giving Nicoletta a ride. Home she should be down here. We were arguing about it. The woods are dangerous Nobody should be in these woods. Without a compass creature was amazed. You'll see like the outdoor type Nicoletta. Do you hike. Do you camp fucking no now never. That's why I told her to stay away. Said Jeff Throw. It's dangerous for somebody who's ignorant about it. I love the woods but Greece Nikki. That's what we'll do this weekend. We'll go to the state forest and hike down to the waterfalls there so beautiful in winter lead. Nicolette van is. He gave her a long lyrical description of frozen waterfalls gleaming ice. So he's so he's too. It's so sad this is after. You're the dance. I know this is just after lunch. Creased Old Lake Okay. Diverts her so she's just thinking about that and increased like his name tilt her head in her heart is if it were really were heartbeat. Just throw throw like a nursery rhyme her head scream JETHRO JETHRO and of course after school up came Christo Christo Oh God smiling and eager in offering her a ride home and I just love this whole description of teenagehood. It was by car that romance was established when a boy gave you rides gave him rights. It meant either. You live next door and had no choice or you were seeing each other. If you didn't want the school to make that interpretation you had to fill your car with Extras Christo. So sorry Christo thing has always filled his van with extras. But now he stood alone he must have told them already that they had to find another way home for the usual van. Crowd was not there and the much complimented Ann. Lewis was not in evidence also endless crush on Christ yourselves trying. She's like feeding him. All of these lies yet go away. How many days it took to make crease go on without her? How awful full each one of them was because of course he had to believe her lies? EARLS know that she was dumping him know that she did not want to be alone with him and go for a ride with him. When you're in love the possibility that the object of your love has better things to do is the worst of all scenes so Christo just smiled uncertainly and said at last? I'll call you tonight. Night said Nicoletta smiling as if it were great. Oh my God I love that I love her inner monologue. Yeah and then he did not touch for Christo it was the not touching crash. Physical desire was so intense. It pulled him back instead of rushing him on her Nicoletta it was a heart that lay elsewhere but at Cristo did not know. Love Vary love rarely does all Maga. What's your the less cents okay? It's still had such profound profound impact such such writing So okay so they're all this happens so creatures like let's go neck in the woods and he takes her are apt after the dance. She just like it's snowing. She just like that is so confused as she gets out of the car and is like drawn to the woods and is like dancing dancing around in the woods like some. It's as though a spell. Yes overtaken her increase. Joe Is under a spell about her because then he's he's like you're raising your wild but he thinks he is in the wildest most romantic relationship he's like she's more than a effort to reims the depths to Nicoletta that I'd never even even seen before. She's like he thinks she's like a manic pixie dream girl. Meanwhile she's having her own movie so she's like the remember she goes up on a ledge and she's dancing with the caveman. Okay so here all read it. Okay thank you. So it says uh-huh she's she realized he wants to kiss thought Nicoletta he is going to drive me. Down throws road to park at the end of the lane where Jeff throws stone will see us. What if the stone tells? Oh my God i I know they talk. I don't want to find out about Christo. How she wanted her to see her in this Coun- for she was beautiful? She had been the princess of every girl's dream at that dance. She had been his lovely as if spun from gold. Delicate is lace as perfect love. Oh Oh i. I heard that for funny. She saw herself in the snowy night. Floating down the path her long gown flowing behind her her golden hair glittering with diamonds of snow. She saw herself untouched cold or by fear dancing through the dark like a princess in a fairy tale to find her prints and then driving with with his left hand. Christopher touched her bare shoulder with his right he was hot and dry burned by the fever of wanting Nicoletta wanting Nicoletta she thought not only of JETHRO and of Jeff throws hand also like she's like literally dancing and pure wedding a slowdown. The Not yet. This is all the Karston Karston. Yeah oh no. He's still wanting her in the car he hasn't seen her get out and be so crazy and like so random. Oh yeah here it is okay so this is the moment where where it goes off the rails and things are crazy and so she's kissing him and he's so he felt evaporated paraded and diffuse she felt sleazy into publicis. Have I done thought Nicoletta. What if I let happen? How am I going to get out of this good night? Christo she said courteously and thank you. I had a lovely time. She put her hand on the door. Handle Christo stared at her. Mickey were in the woods. Not your driveway on my God but she was out out of the van standing in her fragile silver dancing slippers on the crest of the snow. She knew she would not breakthrough. She would not get snow in these shoes. She touched the Ruby Necklace. The moon came out from behind the snow Laden clouds and rested on her face in her throat. The Ruby and the red rose of her cheeks were the only heat in the forest like a silver silver creature of the woods. She found the path swirling and laughing to herself. Nikki said Greece does. He was out of the van. He was following her. He could not stay on the surface. The crusted snow as she could is big feet and strong legs slog to where she danced. You don't even have a coat. He cried then. Public Blah Blah Blah Blah Woah. Don't do this Nikki Nikki. What are you doing? She was in a dance choreographed by an unknown moonlit hand she had a partner unseen unknown and the only thing was to keep up to stay with the rhythm her skirts making scallop shells around her bare stocking legs. Her feet barely touching the white snow her hands and synchrony Arnie touching holding waving. He could see her her gown luminous stars her hair like golden music. He could not imagine what she was doing but he did not care. She was too lovely in the evening was to extraordinary for reason he simply wanted to catch up to be with her to see her eyes as she danced this unearthly dance and then and she's like almost falling in ice on my God also like Sushi. She's like she's to the cave. Yeah they get there and she's full on on in the arms of the Caveman and here. It is a black with the end of Nicoletta narrow danger open wide and opened wider Christo stared fascinated unable to unable to shout warnings of warnings. Were needed from the site of the ice dripping. Rock walked rock moving. Rock the Rock and Nicoletta dance. It's together for a moment while Christo tried to free himself from ribbons of confusion. What is going on and then she spun even if seeing him for the first time and the rock spun with her and it had a face the rock was a person and the Jeffers? Like you brought him here yes. Meanwhile you're like an angel the performance like the Phantom of the opera. And he's he's like I dope easy relevant. Yeah he's real. Yeah my God. He truly thinks that he's like Oh and she's just like was she's morgue. She's she's more than I ever could have dreamed what a woman you really is. It's like he's like a Scout Nicoletta. Pretty we've known each other for so long now now that she's not magical. I think that this this is a good time and then all of a sudden she turns into this like fucking fairy print. She's like can ice him he's like. This is incredible. I must have war. You have hey. I'm disturbing here. I'm wearing La. Turn away from that Rock and look into my are you at the very rocks around us. And she's like. Oh no you brought him here. It's not safe. She's like I didn't he just followed me and then and he's still watching happen is like This is we are together. This is normal and she is not dating a rock and then he's like I guess you should go in the car and she's like okay so they lead and he's like I'm GonNa Catch that rock for you and she's like wet wrong the guy would you like I have to go back to see death row. Yeah and her parents are like going to be on some daylong excursion and with friends and her sister. Jamie doesn't WANNA be doesn't want to have a babysitter anyway. She's like the Godspeed. Whatever and Dan and she thinks she's about to go and be read with jethro and apologize and explain about the night before and instead her friends show up like just when she's about to open the door and they're like Talat everything about my dance with Christo she's like fuck and and get out of here? I got to go and then Christo shows. It was like her her thoughts of like having to deal with these people was so funny where she's like money and stress. It was very stressful too. Because it felt like one of those dreams where you have to get somewhere and you can't because thinks Kia's sidetracking you Trying to find the mall pert. Oh Yeah. She's like let's she finally so funds. Really Fun that we're doing she's like Yeah I've spice shoes Oh Yeah Oh yeah. It's in the car car. When he's like so thin she leaked goes off? She's dancing. She's glorious it's beautiful. It's the greatest thing I've ever fucking Yeti short. Yeah it was crazy. And she's like you're lying. She's like there was no yet. You sound crazy like you sound crazy right now. I think that you should go home. And he's like no there was what. Why do you act like this Nicoletta? There was a meanwhile an Louise back. They're trying to do the most to get Christos does attention. She's like crystal that you're sober. I could touch him for Shar. An Leans Printings Loins Nicoletta It's so funny to how at this point on threatened by Leeann Lewis she is. She's like okay. It's like Madrigal's or nothing thing to me. Now that Jessica fucking joke. There is no Madrigal's there is only jethro. Christo is nothing to me. He is like a beautiful portrait. That I do not care about outten and Louise you can. She's like ice. Who has a crush on? Who Anyway and I'm going to hunt him and she's like I can't let this happen? And so then she decides to go and like secretly meet with Jeff Throw at night yes but then like news vans. It's come but then she it takes a long time to get there and she stays for too long and then it's morning when Christou said he was going to go and hunt gyro and as soon as and he's convinced the news vans to come because of those hunters yes missing. Yeah Yeah and we are increased always like that getty thing probably got them and he tells the news organization and they're like believed downs right. Yes thank you. And then she leaves and she sees all of them heading. She's like right right. I came here to warn death row and then I forgot 'cause she was lulled into his like sexiness. Yes so how do you decide to stop them with cunning distraction The cutting distraction being throwing herself in front of a van to riven on her leg gets Ya. It's crazy. The News van runs her over and then they all stop and it like cuts works at all it very much works because is also I love to that. She's like This is a good excuse though like to make Christopher leave me alone 'cause like I have to say I'm tired from being hit by a van and it from all that being hit by a van also okay. I burst out laughing when She's in her hospital bed And she's just like feeling sorry for herself. The door was flung open banging heavily into the Pastel Plaster Wall. The Madrigal's burst into the room came. It was so corny. They were seeing an old European hiking song and as we go. We love to sing our knapsacks on our backs ax fall. Fall Durrell's upset. She was so glad to see them that it made her cry. Is Hokey but it was beautiful. It was friendship it was French. I just the the Vince Arch coach door. Yes of these like kids. These teenagers wearing bureau. I love it dorks. I love it. I love that. She's not just just a cheerleader. Social specific interests. Oh I really do really love it. I appreciate it because also you no I like ren faire I like to dress up. I like to cause play like that stuff. Certainly up our allies for sure. It is very dorky though. I remember so now. There were a magical. There was a magical chorus in college. Really mean they saying Olden Times on I don't think they dressed up. Was it called Madrigal's yeah Madrigal singers really. That's a good thing it's the type of music. It's not the name of the their grower. I thought no no magical music. Yeah should we start a Madrigal should should I open up spotify and find magical thinking I you think. Maybe it's a secular music singing. I'M GONNA look up some magical singing groups in la here Philippine Madrigal singers an artist. That's interesting that it's true This is more A very beautiful. I didn't realize it was secular. But it's like beautiful church music. Okay right. There's a group called joyous ONS Early Music Ensemble Bringing early music to Los Angeles since nineteen eighteen sixty eight. They're dedicated to presenting pre seventeen hundred music from around the world in historically informed performances aimed to inspire entertain educate southern California Oranje communities. I'd love to go to one of the performances. It seems like they perform in churches a lot. Are they religious. Maybe this group is religious here. This is Spa Chess Santa Barbara Highschool maybe the historic old mission of Santa Barbara. Me So imagine that this is what Nicoletta. She's a soprano. Yeah Oh that's why they were dressed in medieval garb. Yeah Hey you know. There's a chorus group looking for people to join in Los Angeles do it. Do you know what I'm afraid of them. My ability to sight read. I haven't read music in a long time. Oh I'm really it's called the Chorale C. H. O. R. Corral Not the Korla for Los Angeles us out. You know what they could have thought about that he had. I should have It is very calming. Yeah wow yeah so in the same way it. It like a chamber orchestras like a particular kind of orchestra. Adele is particular chorus Wow My dad was was on the Board of the Reno Chamber Orchestra. Oh really 'cause my stepmother was a violinist. I oh very good one and a very bad stepmother. Yeah I mean you just because you're violence doesn't mean you're going to be a good stuff no no you would think people I mean. I know that stereotype. Yes but it's not always the case. Yeah Yeah it's often the case but it's not all we asked the case. Wow So we chamber music. Is that the exception that proves the rule. Yeah what is chamber music. It's like a in in my mind when I was a teenager. All releasing to me was like it's a smaller orchestra and chamber. Music is its own specific thing that I don't know enough about to to explain so it's like die but different than of Lonzo ball one player to apart most important form being the string quartet which developed the eighteenth century. There you go I guess it is that simple group of instruments traditionally a group that could fit in chatrier. Yes so like it's not a philharmonic. Cray Stri- I see okay. My Dad was also on the board of the Truckee Meadows Community College. Oh so now. Once a year I donate to both of those organizations in his name. Oh Oh that's nice thank you thank. You just say have a ceremonial way to honor my dad. Yeah that's nice on his birthday or father stay date that he died and kind of vary it up. Yeah that's really nice. Are you just donated to the Turkey Meadows for Christmas and does your fundraiser. Yeah truckee meadows is truckee is a small town in Nevada at near Reno And there is also just an area called trucking meadows outside of Reno interesting We got there from Chamber Taber Museum Dorky entrance in a hospital. Oh yeah okay. So our air legs broken. It's all broke up magic goes. We've suddenly guess WHO's there Jeff. Throw Gentler shows up wall. She's getting her blood pressure taken as a human no he goes up first right right and then he hides hi. It's and when it comes in because he like loses the ability to be jeff thrown out goes in front of the sun or who knows what he turns into a rock boy again again. So He's hiding in the corner and she's getting her heartless and to And the nurses like Whoa your heart rate just jumped a lot and like follows her eye line in an sees a fucking caveman in the corner. Here's what's funny that happens before that That has nothing to do with anything. She's taking your blood pressure her and she asks the nurse what how is it and she goes. You wouldn't understand. She's like like to know the numbers. Please because I studied I know uh-huh and so I'd like it. If you would tell me and then the nurse does tell her and she goes. Oh that's good. I know she's like I'd have great blood pressure and and then it jumps up because jeter jeter is right there staring at her as a cave. And she's like Oh shit Aziz jethro free screams runs but she can't fully explained to security. What just how she's like? I'd ask the patient and Nichols what is like. I don't know what you're talk. She's like I I don't know her never seen her before in my life. Yeah I don't know him from Adam. A listener is Lindsay here with a message from modern fertility. I think I've talked on the show before about the fact that I froze my eggs. Not a big deal at turns out pretty easy and one of the things that I had to do. When I froze my eggs was get a fragility test? Modern fertility brings that to you. 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Listen so then what he goes back in the woods right. Yeah 'cause she's thinking to herself she's like I can't just throw myself in front one of a van all the time and oh to try to all right here is my criticism of Nicolette. Is Behavior with Christo Asto in regards to his desire to kill JETRO. Why doesn't she just say I hate hunting? I hate the idea of killing living things things. If you kill that thing I never want to see you again. Yeah done because he's doing it for her instead. What does she do to do it? Because I wanted to be there when you do it. 'cause I'm so impressed. Why would you say that? I was so irritated by that. Like very very logical way out that is not taken. Yeah since she's like Stu oh I know we has. He told her what how like how he got turned into a cave. Boy Yeah I think he did okay so he's so guess what everyone. Here's here's the deal. Before the native Americans. There were like Vikings that came and some of them fell into this cave or it never got number four native Americans but because concurrently Shman. Yeah like they were not and they fell in the Cave Steve and he explained something like native Americans didn't because they respected Natural Sarah. They were smart. They were like. I'm not going to go in that Damn Cave. Yeah and and so. They didn't but the vikings were dumb and all-russian to the pretty cave and then they fell onto the whole never got buried and the way that vikings need to be buried as a viking funeral. They need to be like lit on fire and those and that's how their souls get released. Guess what not ever happened there stunt. Their souls are trapped. In that case there cursed they turn into the cave Dave so then they're angry so anybody else who goes in the cave they also trap later. I guess he's a pilgrim. He he is so he and his dad. I wanted to read her description of the area. Because it's very poetic and it colonel leads into Jess Roping. A pilgrim just with US talking dot in the book. He's very grim. You pilgrim boy is built pilgrim Braham Cape Boy So this is when she's following him that first time the asphalt ended the road became dirt. Ruts Nicoletta would have said there were no dirt dirt roads in the entire state. Let alone this city. What are you talking about? Of course there. Of course there are in your city or whatever where the boy be going trees grew is closely. It's fence post's prickly vines wrapped the edge of the woods as viciously as Concertina while but concertina wire stonewalls. threaded did through the naked woods. The lost arms of early America for a moment. She felt their souls. The ones breathing farmers the vanished field pans the dead wives and buried children. Yeah cool it's cool. That's who jethro was an old farm. Boy Yeah he goes in there his dad his dad get stuck in there and he's like cave take my I'll take my dad's place and then he'll come and find me The problem with the cable. I didn't realize that it's cursed and that people forget about you if you've gone in which is weird because then why didn't he forgot about that but that's 'cause he didn't go in? Oh I see what you're saying. He just saw his dad go in and I see him out I I see so then going inside I and it was like sorry. Your Dad can't come out to play. He was like well. What if I stay okay? Here it was very beauty and the beast situation and then it's like he turns into the beast instead of the cave falling in love with him and then yeah being taught yeah and then turning hot at the end turn Kadett then. Did you know I was when as a kid. I was really disappointed with what he actually looked. We all were. I was like what everybody was like. He was hotter beast only in adulthood have come around to how he looks. Yeah as to appreciate the pre raphaelite feature. Yes yes but when I was a kid I was like. I'm sorry I've seen Prince Eric. Yeah I've seen like though prints I'm not familiar with this era of European features. I I was just like this hair is like I can't with the hair. I remember being disgusted by his hair. Yeah and I was like I can't with your nose in your Chin. Yeah I was just like. I don't know what's what's happening. Yes where is my fuzzy. Yeah I was just like he looked better before I was just like the potential that was than slapped out of my hands. I think that's what it is. I was disgusted. Is We all had an idealized version of that. Even if we couldn't express with that looked like yeah and that was not no but in adulthood. I've had so much time with it. Yeah I I'm I'm like he's pretty handsome. Yeah he's pretty handsome. He's on his hands like a cave. A cave I mean caves are very you ever seen a came. I'm really sorry. Kate Caves Crystal Cave Sequoia. ooh That's a good one a good one. It's pretty cool. If you go in there they turn off the lights at one point and you get to experience total darkness who it's for Reiki. You can like wave your hand in front of your face is using nothing. That's terrifying. That at all. Yeah Yeah. That's what this cave is like. Yeah yeah so so other caves I don't know any other case. I knew how many one which gave the sleep it was like a cave in Colorado. Oh Nice I was rainbow. That's cool only. Oh No have I been no. I've been in one. I was some almost feel like famous -i Rainbow Cave in Colorado. Yeah maybe not Rainbow Caverns. That sounds right but whereas that isn't he. Oh Oh that's why it sounds familiar. It's not right but we yeah. No that's different. That's what big thunder mountain used to be. Nature wonder under nature's wonderland as an extension of Rainbow Caverns mind train. Yes that is why. The name of that sounded familiar. Game hold on Rainbow Cave Rainbow Falls Falls Cave Colorado Spit Rainbow Falls woman. I think there's a cave probably somewhere near there yet. Cave of the Entrance Rainbow Falls. And then there is something cave looks like there are some very cool rainbow caves in China. Oh did you see the photos of that. The biggest cave found in the that we know of That they've found in Vietnam and they have like like trees are inside. It is cool cool abuse just in California. No no this is a team rainbow. He Okay I don't know if you can see it. I'm just going to send this picture to you. He see it. You received it yet. Perry and that Kohl. ooh pretty really really big. I don't think the scale the scope of it is like no. I'm sure it's very hard. It's Hugh Mongo person in the bottom. Right ooh yeah pretty big pretty big I. I used to have this like National Geographic scenic book and would just stare at this picture. I like cave bunch of League Mossy plants in it and just like imagine being. Yes Dude if you're young and you've always had the internet like you do not you don't understand the kind of shit that we would do to entertain yourself is basically like sort of like pinterest. I but like with one picture that Yup but like when your picture and it's of it came. Yeah I used to do that. I had pictures and it was sand and like yeah desert caves. Yeah there is also really cool shot of a lightning bolts. That's cool all lightning ball. Just look at that. Just look at this book over and over. Yeah know might hide you guys. The Internet was new. Yeah it was slow. It was not not like the Typo take were all attached to walls. Yeah I would look at this We had this book that was about like geodetic crystals and stuff And it had like close up pictures of yeah I would just like stick actually Sarah. It's pretty and like imagine that I was like really little and walking around in there I would just stare at it for like a long time but yeah and just imagine yes. We would have a photo photo a photo and you'd be like I'm GonNa Stare at this and have daydreams like like very very much by choice. I'M GONNA sit down and have a daydream while staring at this photo and I'm staring at it and now I am imagining myself. Both as being the character from island of the Blue Dolphins I live here. Yes and this is what my life. Yes and whole adventures. Yeah like like the amount of daydreaming we used to do like. I don't really daydream anymore. I have tried. Have you tried to daydream. Recently my I think my brain I think I have adult adult onset but just like I think I had. How many dol- onset daydream? Add adult onset daydreaming adult aid AO. D- diddy I think I have. Add And I it it like manifested in my adulthood Because I have a hard time daydreaming. It's probably 'cause now we have these fucking food. Yeah yeah and it's like I just can't stay on one thought for very long haul. How like like did it? And then I'll think about the ship that have to do or like I think that's a pretty. I think that's the adult thing that happens though. 'cause that's what happens to me whereas like I'll sit down even trying to just have a daydream about what I want my life to look like. Yeah so I'm trying to do like my low vision boarding type thing of like I want all picture what it is I want Said I will take the steps needed to get there. And I'll like try to you. Have a daydream about my life and I cannot muster it. The closest I get is like we'll I've worked out at my exercise room and then I go to the kitchen And I make myself some oatmeal in my very nice kitchen and then like all loose strike yet the need to do something else. I'm like man I don't I don't know like are like I. I sat down. I was trying to like force daydream about winning an emmy giving an acceptance of each and I was like the star. Yeah I I was trying to. Daydream daydream about like just like anything like an eye halfway through. I was just like I don't want to do this. I don't WanNa like this is boring. I'm taking too long. Yeah I'm like I don't know I would rather just do something so Sometimes I will though like I will kind of like imagine things. I guess I do daydream. But not in a controlled way. Maybe we're using daydream. Daydream is when you get like a lost in thought. I think fantasies yeah is maybe what I mean. Yeah I can't construct fantasies anymore Yay who I'm fantasizing about this. I'm fantasizing about winning an emmy. I'm fantasizing undecided about what my house will look like. Yeah daydream is you do get wrapped up and you barely say what you were just thinking about Ya. Yeah no I I. Yeah you know what I will get lost in thought but never. It's I think it's because when we were kids there was a lot of time where like you just didn't you didn't have a phone. You didn't have like you didn't have a road trip. Yeah or like just I would just sit in my room and look at pictures of crystals like imagine And be like that's me. I'm in there and during mental i. I was like Ooh like look at pictures. I like Moss and I'd be like I'm so small I live in this Cain Yes and they're looking at a photo of a cave and I'm living my mind like I watched an episode for the magic. School was the one where they've scores becomes a frog and like big to be small and like there's like ants in a log and I remember like oh it was like look cool diced gave me daydream fodder for so long. Because I like or I would like go outside and like stories in your mine I would. I would go into my parents back your or my grandparents backyard. Because they had a lot of Moss. They had really good moss so I would their kids. It's just love Moss Moss cool cool so green. It's so green. It's so green. And there is so dark is Masa so grants it's like like jade. It's very green on so I would like stare. Stare at Moss. I I would get like we use from the trees and like build little like I would like get little twigs and like put them in the Moss and then like make a little roof with with the leaf and then I play. I mean they're a little. I'm I'm a little person inside the like in the Moss that's me and the little rocks in there and be like that's my chair. Like kids have got to still be weird right I think so. I just think I think it may be ended in earlier would be my guest because like I remember playing with my cousin and my sister in Reno during the summer are we would be visiting our dad and they had this big like kind of cluttered musty basement and down there. There was this like tiny little little like gas lamp. Like in Olden Diane Carey it carry it up the and and and we had some kind of pretend game that revolves around that and me like carrying using I think maybe like we were pretending ending. We were tiny or we. We had some kind of house. I can't remember what the game was. Ready always obsessed with playing with that and then we go back the next time. Our and my cousin was too old to play. Pretend anymore anymore. I was like no the lamp. WanNa play with it so I one or two and then he need that land so bad I remember my grandma. My Grandma's house had a basement and that was like it was a That was where my dad used to like him and his brothers who sleep. And there's like three beds in there And and it was like it was just like this cool old little boys room with a lot of like old stuff in it and like old board games like a really ancient game of life like old stuff and I remember like going down there and there were these really old national geographic's from like a long time ago and and I would just like lay on one of those little beds and like stare at these national geographic pictures and like Imagine Arjun that I was like with the animals. I remember imagining a lot about animals. To various animals. Still am I was never that into you. Know has really an animals like but all ones. Yeah I liked wolves I like Cheetahs leopards birds and stuff I did not like lions thought. Lions were boring. I don't even try to make me have a fantasy about a lot but tigers were cool. Heggers Circle Tigers. Were my sister's thing really and I was wolves. My sister's thing I know my sister sings was Wales. A Wales Denise was very into horses this still is. She likes horses a lot but like flying UNICORNS was like Oh yeah notch for her. And Dolan's I was a unicorn in corn girl because my cousin Sydney was a unical. I only frogs very into frogs. I was intensely into frogs and lizards words and I would have these little rubber frogs. uh-huh lizards and then I had this little trim and I put them in there and they pretended they were my ipads and then my grandparents got me too little turtles. Oh and they were. They were like the size of quarters and they grew to be like the size of like a Hoagie and they were like cool. I liked him a lot. They were registered sliders and then we put them in my parents pawned. I think I've told the story And we thought one of them like died aid because it disappeared and then it was just like hibernating so then it came back like after a year. And we're like Oh my God it was fine and then it's it's kind of terrifying. Yeah we're like where was it and then sadly one of my turtles this is like a horror story. No a raccoon eh kept biting off each of its limbs over like ears years only had like one leg missing and then it had two legs missing and it just kept happening it was really messed and he couldn't protect a couldn't protection can protect them. How do they know it was a raccoon? Because they don't they don't it could have been. That's what I was getting. Yeah like how do they know where it was a raccoon. It could have been a person calls coming. I'm from inside the House. Yes my dad when you go to a point a finger threes pointing back at you. Three are three threes. Puerto Gagging thank you three pointing back at you caves. Basically Christo like tries tries to Kill Jess throw. But then Jeff throw has other plans will he. They're on their way Owning you blows up but JETHRO has stolen dynamite amita which Nicoletta told him about thinking that there was a way to save Ja- throw like if if he had set it off and not been inside. Yeah like she could have been inside and set it off. Maybe 'cause like he can clearly leave the cave and remember stuff cassisi cave boy. Yeah he's just gave so oh he could have left. She could have thrown in the dynamite and he could have lifted her out And then the Viking. Men's souls would have burnt don't like they needed to be. Yeah but instead he's just stays inside. Garin study just blows the whole place up and she's like jethro and then she's like. Oh a tiny diamonds Siemens or carry this around as though it were jeff throw and I was like I guess like his agenda through is Symbolic or for real. Yeah I couldn't tell I was like it could be either. Maybe the point is to keep it ambiguous. I couldn't until if I was just being obtuse or no. I couldn't whether that was the case. I could not tell us like it could be either way I would say this is a for sure. Read this book though. Oh It's good and on limited so if you guys WanNa read it it's very easy. Yep It's good really highly recommend yes uh-huh next week. We are reading Diane Hose. The invitation ooh So thank you very much. Everybody we really really I appreciate you And if you want support our show you can go to dot com slash increase. We have a lot of really cool stuff there and we wanted to our very special Patriot producers. So thank you Ashley. Fritz Claire More Danny Emily pulley Julianne Hannis Karen Lewis. Louis Kelly burn arena injury Desmond Mandalay. Whoa schlager Mike a Yunus? Miguel Camacho Molly marks Kalaheo. Sarah Jagger's during a Shell Sasha Gibson. Sydney Bolinger Victoria Bek. Wendy Bartos thank you guys so much we really appreciate it and also if you want Without spending money you can leave a rating for our show on any podcast platform. Tell people about our show Word of mouth Helps and you can change your settings so that some all new episodes download automatically Because it gives us a clearer read on our numbers. Yeah they helpful. Thank you all so much. Uh We will take it with you next week. Keep it creepy. This has been a forever dog. Production Reduction executive produced by Kelli nugent. Linzie Kaitai Foam Joselito and Alex Ramsey. For more original. PODCASTS sir. Please visit deliver dog. PODCASTS DOT COM and subscribe to our shows on Apple podcasts. spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Keep up with the latest latest forever dog news by following us on twitter and Instagram at forever dog team and liking our page on facebook.

JETHRO JETHRO Christo Nicoletta jeff Nicoletta Joe She Madrigal Cristo Jeff Throw Greece Anne Louise Nicolette van Christopher Chris O.. Los Angeles spotify Christo Short Joe Biden Hugh Mongo
Edward Scissorhands with Julio Torres

Blank Check with Griffin & David

1:44:16 hr | 1 year ago

Edward Scissorhands with Julio Torres

"Jonah what? This child with Jan you could have gone up there. You could still go. No sweetheart. I'm old woman. Now, I would rather remember me the way I was how do you know, he's still alive? Niger don't know. Not for sure. But I believe he is you see before he came down here. It never snowed and afterwards it did. And if he word up there now, I don't think it would be snowing. Sometimes you can still catch me podcasting in it. She did start a podcast Edward went up to win. We know that right. That's in the movie, right? This is hurricane. They don't draw that line directly. But it's implied. Right. Says was a non guilty. That's her final line that they cut out because they went like audiences. They're not really years ahead of getting this. Hello, everybody. My name's Griffin Newman, David SIMS. Blink check with Griffin David podcast filmography directors who have massive success early on their career given series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want sometimes those chicks clear and sometimes they bounce baby. And this is maybe I'm realizing wall, we're covering this other than about Tim Burton. We're talking about the film's timber and the title pod were scissor cast in a four title the title episode. I don't think we've ever covered demography where it goes this long without a bounce. We'll see Cameron maybe James Cameron this business about. But. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of cost expectations. He has he has five without a bounce though. Because Edward is technically about that's what I'm saying. But five without about movies in a row to start your careers. Pretty impressed by five great successes, especially because they get one could argue. Aggressively weirder and weirder even Batman is a very commercial thing to make a movie about right there. Weird movies. Yeah. And then Batman returns being the weirdest. You think we're in this? I think so. Yeah, I think so I think maybe I think this movie can form to the expectations set up by itself. Yeah. No. I I'm with you with fairytale rowers returns is just like what also. Hey, Paul are. All right. But are two hours and twenty. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can say, well, it's this is like a Frankenstein movie. So we're, yeah, we're we're more ready for like a monster to be in a Frankenstein movie. Yeah. Yeah. I saw I reward. But on the special features they had like the promotional feature where they went to the mall, and they went to people with a microphone and be like after they'd seen the movie four coca this was like the k they put together to like people are wondering who is Edward Scissorhands. And then you see them at the mall, and they're like Edward Scissorhands to good tight over its hands. No, I never heard of him like it's people doing that. And it's like a SuperCup fifteen of walking JC Penney. But that was their whole take is just like you've never met a guy like Scissorhands before. But they've they straight out say, it's Tim Burton's modern take on Frankenstein. Right. They went as far as they could without saying, it's timber remaking Frankenstein. But then the other part of that was the poster for this movie was like him with the butterfly looking like he was about to cry and a tagline is and uncommonly gentlemen. There's well. Okay. Well, there's this. There's this that is the sort of Burton invites you the one that I thought had the butterfly. But I think that was later DVD, right? And then the comedy gentleman one is the one. Dona? What's the tagline on that on the one that's him and profile is there director, Batman and Beetlejuice invites you to me, thank for Beetlejuice. You ready to? I think audience is ready. I think that's a pretty good tagline to just go. Another another kooky hairs, also, right? There was the haircut themed post posters. Edward was here. I have never seen that poster. I believe there's two of them. There's the one with the haircuts in the newsroom with the topiary yet. They really kinda sold this comedy. Sure. And also Christmas movie, which was yeah. But you're right. I mean, this is the main thing we've been talking about in this miniseries is how much how quickly timber Salish himself as like clear brand the people's gots. Yeah. Yeah. And. Yeah. Just like, oh, another one of those right? Yeah. Which was surprising because he is so Essa teric. It was weird that once you get it, you netted like pick up the his language you can you can understand what the rules of his universe. I think that if anything this might of caught people of guard because it was so sweet, I think that was. Sahar movie just a horror movie and. Beetlejuice was gonna spooky bat looking and tone way. And this one wasn't spooky is so kind and sweet children's very sincere children's film. Now. Here's here's my transition. I feel like you have carved out a similar niche for yourself in comedy. As Tim Burton as the timber of comedy as a Tim Burton of comedy. I don't know. I think I keep thinking of how fun. It would be for say like a Laura Ramirez too. I fantasize with a Beetlejuice remake. Starring Laura means do a good job. Our guest is Julia Torres. Comedian will you've written for Saturday Night Live, and you have your own show. That's coming down the pipeline, which is less Fouque's. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. It's a spooky show is. Gently spooky show a horror themed comedy. Yes. The ads at a horror comedy but much like timber, and it's a comedy using in that world the world horror and spook. I'm definitely not as interested in Christmases. Tim Burton is. No Burton obsessed with Chris he likes Christmas a lot. He does like this back to back. These are two Christmas movies in a row. No. But I feel like you, you know, you have this like very sort of meteoric rise. Where like I feel like the second started performing people were like, oh, that's what he's doing. And it was a similar thing to Tim Burton. I'm not saying you directed Batman. But we're you you have a very specific like universe that you build around your comedy. I think. Well, which is what I like about. Directors like Tim Burton where it's like beetle, juice and Scissorhands are just I mean. Yes, there the rooted in in you know, Frankenstein these other stories, but they're. I like the the idea of of audience as being like what what is that? And then that becoming a Halloween costume for the rest of shirt. Sure that is just my biggest dream is to create something where. Liberal arts students are over dress up as that and people are like what is that? And they sort of explained they're like, oh, yeah. I think I saw that people sell unlicensed fan, art shirts. Zaza l-. Yes. Right. Yes. Oh my God. Do you find? So now that you've like you've created TV show, which does not exist, which doesn't exist. Yes. Yeah. Do you find yourself trying to put stuff in pointedly in the hopes that like, oh, this will be something that someone could easily make into a Halloween costume? I think that there are a couple of opportunities. Okay. Yeah. A couple of opportunities there. No spoilers. Yeah. So this movie Edwardson. I was very surprised digging into this. I've been very surprised about the time line the velvet of his movies because it was different than I thought. It was okay. He on with this was later. Yes. So Beal second well, and he comes up with this pitch while he's developing Beetlejuice, all he's done is peewee. Beal was a scripted Warner Brothers has and while he's working on Beetlejuice. He's like, I got this other idea. This was apparently in the most like timber origin story ever. He had just made this drawing when he was sixteen years old and he held onto the strong. Everyone was like that's a movie a slender boy Scissorhands all black with scissor like this the the hands of sort of. Yes holding. Them like this. He's yeah. Yeah. The the the blades are always down because. Yes, gentle and he's aware trade of hours. Right. He's right. But he looks like a begging dog ticket by how much this character. Feels like a dog watching this movie. Oh, sure. Very timid little like toys is dog. Yeah. I feel like it's whole vibe in his body language, and all of that my father has a very neurotic dog, and I just kept watching this. And being like, this is like scruffy. Also, also like a like a dog. So much of detention with playing with the dog is whether or not the dog will attack right, right? There's that there's whether or not the dog will lose it. And yes, because the dog has the power of really hurting you right? And not understanding how things work and getting scared lease easily everything sometimes lashing out or not understand on power. All that that sorta stuff. Yeah. But he said that ever Scissorhands was like, you know, he's due to Lur. He's a watercolour guys. Always goes a little notebook on him. And he had drawn. This just like this is how I feel when he was sixteen. It was like the original tumbler page was Burton's invented. Bumbler hair? This is. Yeah. This run of the first five films as sort of him inventing this one more than anything. This one isn't have a plot. Otherwise like, anyway, we'll keep talking keep talking. Hashtag Tf w the movie. Sure, sure, it's any of those things it's whatever you wanna say about a sad youths of the nineties crystallize. He's like I'm gonna I don't think this was what he set out to do. So suburban youth, you know, sort of right? And obviously, you know of a middle class, you know, sort of upbringing everything, but I think it was like he was like I wanna make about how I feel weird. And then he ended up making something that pretty universally spoke to just like a feeling of weirdness that people could just sort of like map onto whatever. Because the character is so otherworldly and doglike. Also a little bit. It's ever. Clearly established what exactly Edward is free rate. Yeah. I don't know that he's I mean, there's some suggestion that he's like reanimated, but it's also could have been just a guy. He's a robot experiment that on or is the only thing you see is that there's the book of Vincent Price's book. Right. You see the wind flipping through the ages in the stages of it. But you never get a sense of what his I mean. Do we do know he's like a construct some kind, but like he right food food visiting right and bleed like, right? Does he bleed? Yeah. Because he cuts himself. Any bleed. Yeah. There's a little spot of blood because that's one reason dialysis so nice to. Oh, yeah. The first time he next himself in front of her. But he he takes this drawing. I mean, he I guess he starting to set himself up and realize people might might be buying into what I'm selling goes to warn budgies. Look this trying to make movie out of it. And they're like cool. Let's put on the backburner work on Beetlejuice. And he was developing it. And and then more brothers was like, I don't know if this was like wanting can we put into this fucking thing. We also hires. Caroline, tomes Thompson. Caroline Thompson was a novelist. She had written a book about an aborted baby that comes back to life and her whole. Colt guess which I believe cannot be fierce was trying to make into a move for a long time. Yeah. She had optioned it higher. Caroline Thompson to adapter on script. Never got made. But then people start having her write other scripts adopt other things or adoption on stories or right spec. Scripts based off of ideas, because I think they said, oh, this person has got this weird childlike whimsey combined with grounding it in a human situation am down and do an ABC. Right. I think that was the notion can we get someone who has basic storytelling fundamentals? Yeah. To take mostly what he's talking about. He meets with her. And she says he was the most articulate person I'd ever met who is incapable of stringing together. That quote. Yeah. It's a good quote. And that's exactly what you're saying. Julio is like the idea of like, okay, can you filter what he's saying into something that makes sense to people, you know, beetle juice rules, but it's also not a particularly emotional movie. No and Batman, which at this point isn't happening hasn't happened yet is an action movie. He is like a sketch movie. I think the really can you make this guy? Tell the motions story make characters carry about. So Warner Brothers just says, we're not interested gives up the movie. Let's FOX pick it up then he makes Batman and then like the day after Batman comes out. Fox is cool. We'll make Scissorhands tomorrow. Right. But also every other studio is like if you wanna make a movie any let us know rand did kind of have his pick of the litter. But he's like I want to do at versus a hint right now. Right. Yeah. We'll we'll jump straight into it comes out the year after Batman. He's got this list of the actors. He wants to do it. Fox wanted him to hire Tom Cruise Tom Cruise four Scissorhands, correct, humid, Tom Cruise, and he knows didn't go over very well. Oh boy. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. And Tom Cruise at this point is all about winning. Yeah. He well. He's just unlike or he's about to do born on the fourth of July 'cause I eighty nine under the well, sure. Yeah. He's in he's in that pocket. And then the other sees Tom Cruise as like the the boyfriend the blonde boyfriend CAC Kraus's. Right, which it's so fucking funny. Brian this movie, it is create its thing. Right. Michael having been the deep for five odd years right in in various giant us eighty six is it. That was John Hughes movie in relation to this. There's eighty five the weird science is eighty five to okay. And he weirdly is only been in two movies since then out of bounds and Johnny be good. Neither richer, you know, right hits. Right. But was in China. Right. It's a fucking quarterback in that. Right. Yes. There's that amazing interview with Anthony Michael hall after he's done the John Hughes movies after he's become the youngest ever cast member on our Night Live after being the teen films. He was on Saturday night when he was sixteen or seventeen. Sure. Yeah. I can look it up. And then he did like he went on like MTV news and was wearing sunglasses, and they went nineteen eighteen or nineteen go on they went how do you feel about playing all these nerd characters? And he goes, nah, nah, man. Not not don't use the N word in front of me. No. And he says it that way. No man, don't use the N word. I think he was also like in the, you know, a lot of eighties young star. He was like an alcoholic by the age of eighteen you know, what I mean, he had like drinking and drug problems from young because it's your the soup you're in this, you know, but I think frat pack soup. I think he thought of himself as a series character actor, okay, he had met with Stanley Kubrick about doing full metal jacket. Sure. And then I think he felt so self conscious about being pigeonholed into the nerd thing. Then he went so hard in the other direction. Right. And was like, I'm just gonna play humorless broS. But he does play a great. He's great. It's just crazy that it's the same person only like five years later because he looks like two feet taller. He does he looks. Well, that's those low too. A lot of a lot of low angles in this movie, especially with this character because it's like you see from from like, you know, physically hands point of view field small and known as like two foot one Winona Zona toll. She's a little some bleeding lady. She seems statuesque in this. Yes. Yeah. So the people the timber was apparently interested in we're like Gary Oldman open past right Hanks past right? I mean, they were going to like all the big leading man Hanks Hanks pass to do bonfire the vanities. I believe. Yeah. I mean, you could call still for all fall. Sure. Oldman actually, right. There's a quote from him where he was like, I didn't get it. And then when I saw the movie like two minutes in like, oh, I get it. Like now, I get it. Like he just needed to see like what Burton was doing ADF was not convincing the sheriff to made no sense to him. But once he saw it he made sense. I mean, that's great. That's the best kind of thing. This be doesn't work if the character is that much of a grown man, right? Yeah. I mean, you're really creepy. If it was hangs her old man or any of them the cruise was the right age. But is the wrong energy? You get why they wanted hangs because they're like as our biggest star. He can do anything to comedy drama if someone like old news like, oh, he transforms himself. He's a chameleon gets into it. But you kinda need someone who has a blink slate in terms of their relationship to the audience at this point the way, the Johnny Depp did. Yeah. Because he was just oh that pretty boy. Like people didn't really have much of a take on him other than like a heartthrob. He's on TV shows on TV she's gotten killed in a couple of movies. Sure. You know, platoon and nightmare on elm street straight. He's in another scissor handed, man. But I don't think there was any sort of sense of like, oh, that's the Johnny Depp vibe which dates to hard. Sure. Yeah. Then he right that becomes his. But I think at this point it was like casting, John Courtney or whatever it's like the castle like hunky guy, or like the cap ios will like that maybe was like sweater pretty yet to cap you feel like hit the ground running as like, oh, he's a serious actor like he's like the serious child act does growing pains. But then it's like Gilbert grape, you're like this very committed fifteen right? That's true. What are you laughing about Griffey? Sorry. Sorry. David sorry to steer. Off course in this episode. I'm just thinking about how wise I have been about my investments recently. Oh, you've been buying stocks or options cryptos ETF's at no I've been buying and selling stocks because we, of course, Robin Hood sponsoring the show, for instance, he'd been sponsoring the show many times, you can use on your phone finally took their advice, and I went down to my local grocery store, and I bought fifteen thousand dollars worth of salary stocks. So I am in I'm in the money wrong where he thinks stock stock stock trading, right? The stock market. That's what we're talking about. I mean, look, I mean, I don't know what you might be able to offload your celery. I mean, all luck to you. We'll say they want they want to make green right? And so you've got to buy stocks. But we've robinhood it's more just thing on your phone that makes financial services work for every. It's a very non intimidating way for stock market newcomers to invest for the first time with confidence you find buyers for your salary. I don't get please continue. There are definitely buyers and sellers not celery us, but there's difference of opinion commission fees. The cost is very low other brokerages contrive ten dollars portrayed and robinhood doesn't charge commission fees at all and keep all your profits. If you trade stocks right now, we're. So what about shipping because you know, celery courses perishable, we're both on the same page here. But I'm just gonna say that we're both on the same page. Well, anyway, yeah shipping. Yeah. That's all built and understand charts and market data. You can place a trade in four tests in your cell phone, and you know, sorts all the stocks by categories like, you know, female CEOs share social media pop. Shortest thickest thinnest, exactly. And you know, you can have a personalized newsfeed to keep up with new stocks. Right. Yeah. I guess I don't know. I'm camera last time there was a new type of salary, but I guess what might happen at some point. Yes. So clearly, you've totally got a handle on Robin Hood, the great friends of the show, and you're going to have a lot of success going forward rather. He's got a little green hat to. Right. That's good. Brandon. Probably giving listeners a blank check of free stock like apple or Ford or sprints to help build your portfolio. They don't call them apple stocks. Okay. It's apple is its own fruits. And apple stock is not a thing that exists. Steve it he definitely gets it. Get it on the same page keep going grievance. Correct. You because it's silly apple is for federal. So if you sign up at check robinhood dot com, you can get a free stock like apple for sprint. Just go to check dot robinhood dot com, and you can sign up today. Get a free stock took all these public and order us. This is just going to cost me so much money to fly there. It really doesn't cost you any money at all. It's just checks. Check that Robin Hood dot com. Oh, yeah. We're on the same. The same year. So an in April and Edward Scissorhands is in December. I think he did crybaby the John waters. Okay. And then after this he does not do movie for three years crazy. Benny does Benny in June. Yeah. And what's eating Gilbert? Grape speaking to Capri. So this is the year he picks like to some verse directors, and is a mock not only that has quit twenty one jump street. Wrecks goes on without him. And if you had any reputation this point it was that he was a brat on twenty one jump street. Like all the stories were like hated the show, and he come on set wearing stupid costumes that they try to fire him like he would like he was constantly trying to get kicked off the show because he thought it was dumb. And. Yeah. And I think everyone thought it was strange that he was doing this. Sure. And then and then this. Made his career moves career better worse. This is like this kind of comes like the thing. And I feel like so much of his reputation back because it is easy to forget that for like thirteen years. So he felt like he was like the artist of the movie stars. Yes. Until pirates. He is the one where you almost don't understand how he still gets to be a movie star regularly only makes weird movies and most of them didn't make a lot of this was kind of his only hit until higher. It's basically. Yes. And he's like. Okay. Only commercial hidden. Yeah. Really liked him. He never got nominated for Oskar or anything. And then do these interviews and he'd be chained like a. Yeah, he's sort of occupies. It seems basis. You're like until like a Houston's. But yes, also, he would only he was, you know, he dated Winona Ryder. And it was like it was a real life. Teen beat kind of relationship is a huge. They were the it couple for that. We are in the early the equivalent if like they hired Cole sprouse. That's shook. Yes. That's that's what it's and any any knocked it out of the park. Right. Like. He was like this kid who's like his Instagram is not selfish. But they're like vary. Very beautiful try, and he's in his big TNT show that you get the senses. Like does he? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That was the whole thing was like does Johnny Depp think he's better than the show is he actually better than it. Or is he just rewrite? What proof is there? He can actually. And also, he's just so pretty the time. But I think he has the automatic judgment of. Well, he's a pretty boy. Like, what is he? No. He's just got the chin like and the very much putting him through like all the magazine pieces and all the photo shoot. Cigarettes should be like looking right. You know? So he seems right. And he's wearing weird Schett's. You know? I mean, there's you know the dates when no one and then immediately gets the tattoo. He also will win. They up up forever. It was. Then he changed its there was that thing. He also dated Jennifer grain sharell Linfen, he dated like every cool girl the early nineties. Like, right. You know? And he was married when he was like a baby. Yeah. And they got divorced like before he even joined twenty one jump street. Right, right. He was married. That whole thing he had the lake cash rockstar poets sort of you know, kind of vibe around him. And then this performance is just like completely eagle this. Sure, right. Totally and is some of the most sort of like committed like, physical comedy Chapman's four lines. Yeah. Right. And watching it it is just like when people apply chaplain S two things there rarely is a character that is this sort of boy Alimentos things they mean that they're quiet. I feel I feel like that. Right. Like, that's usually why people would say that would be a another performance that is sort of in the same will of of forming that I saw last year that I loved one of my favorite performances on film. Can't wait for this. When needed Apu in the Christopher, Robin. Agreed. So so oh my God. He said so. Oh, little just the way means. Yes. Up like this little paw feel and just like that movie. Is so good the sadness in not understanding. Why sitting on Honey? Yes. This Rupp do right? Yes. Like when they're walking through the train station. And he says why is he in a cave the ticket constrict and he wants a balloon, and he just wants a balloon. Just I saw that movie with our fin Rebecca fullness. I have a lot to learn acting wise from wynona Apu. I mean, he's the master. Yeah. He's a master. He's been making it look effortless for sixty years. Yes. But I saw the movie the lights came up, and I turned to her. And my first thought was like I forgot that we need the do is my favorite comedian. He's very yes. Where it was just really that movie. So captures like when I would read those books or watch the cartoons and just bust a gut, and I was like a one line joke writer than poo who is the sharpest joke writer in the biz. But then that movie ads like the winsome nece. That's the thing that links them up with Edward Scissorhands. Pu feels weirdly sat in that movie who feels release at least in the same way of the whole Chris Robin growing up. Yeah. There's not really zone for him. They've all spread out here. Sort of just like a bare living in a tree by himself. Not talking to anybody when I was young. And I saw this for the first time, and I remember resisting watching it for a while. Scissorhands? No, I resisted watching Winnie the Pooh and Christopher Robin until it came out. And then I saw it opening weekend ever Scissorhands I'd gotten so deep into Burton, and I held off on watching this one. It was maybe wanna last ones I watch. I can't become that. I was very. I was genuinely scared when I was a kid. I knew it Edward Scissorhands one. Everyone did because we'll talk playground because it's such a good name on. Yes. But I didn't see it. I guess I was a little older. But it was scary ninety nine hundred ninety. Okay. I just remember it being one of those boxes in the video store that scared. Yes, yet because the scars and the yeah. Yeah. And the fact that he does look so sad and haunted and scary, right? Like it wasn't. I knew that. He wasn't a villain a new. It wasn't a monster movie and a traditional most. But I was like he looks scary. And it this look sad. I hear this movie. They're selling it about his loneliness. And I don't want to experience that when you see today. I'd probably see when I'm maybe nine or ten. Oh, usually pretty yeah. I'm still pretty young. But I'm saying like seven or eight I got really into Burton. And this was the last one I watched on VHS, and they became szeswith them watch it like obsessively I hadn't seen it probably ten or twelve years. And watching the last night, I realize it's one of those are still probably know every word to 'cause I watched it too much in middle school. But I do remember when it started a I was I was so nervous like sitting watching VHS and my living room by myself because it was bad in some way waiting for him to appear it felt like the looming threat because you have the happy suburban town ends a kid if I ever watched horror movies or movies that had mild thriller elements or any of that. I would just be like thought this is the part where it's gonna stop being the setup. And that's scary stuff going to happen. Yes. Reading night for hanging out. And I was like it's safe. Nothing scares gonna happen. I'm fine yet. And then the second the monsters introduced, I'm like, no I'm stressed out for the rest of the move this. I also dislike horror dislike currently, I currently feel that way. Okay. Still to this day. Yes. Do you think that's part of why you like sorta like repurposing spooky stuff and making it funny? I I like the it's more of a mystery more than like, Sherry. Sure. And I like the unknown strangeness and the known more than I more than I like, I jump scares. I I don't like scary there. But I was about this. I was going to say when I was watching it was the same thing when I was a kid anytime anything with clown where I was like, I I don't wanna I don't wanna watch the part where they're gonna be mean to the clown. Yeah. I like a mean to. Does comedy full dread to have really want them to be mean to the client always related to clowns? Seriously. Like did not like it like, you know, little there was this. I don't know if they still existing where the paper bag players. Oh, yeah. You can me they still going. I don't know. I used to those shows remember sick Upper West side kid of Lear Westside children's theatre company they were, but they did shows four for a new review every year and the bit was that like the costumes the sets and the props were all made out of like paperbacks, it really big Brown paper bags, and they'd be like, I gotta get my car. They would often have clowns. And client would be the butt of the joke, or whatever, you know. And and I just like when I was a kid. I was hit stand this kids leave the fucking Clarita alone and resents the same once he enters. I'm like leave him alone. Just know they're going to be mean to him. Actually, Diane is going to be nice. But apart from that I'm like, oh, God everyone's going to turn on as the audience is so protective of him. Yeah. Couldn't you're so also relieved like I also watch it in so relieved at the dad is nice. Oh, my go- Minneapolis -tunities war for that to not be the case rate. So relieved that he is like outwards smiley condescending worst. He's an eighties dad where he's like you need to get a job and stuff responsible just loves him. And it's just like what do you mean? I talked to them like a normal person even. Yeah. Edward listen. Yeah. Ed. Yeah. Right. But I just love that. He approaches him like he has Edward Scissorhands has the exact same frame of reference as he does. And you can start any conversation with see the game last. But that opening shot of Edward, you know, when dying we find him where he so small, and the this is where I start freaking the fuck out the perspective of the building that, you know, the set makes him look. Yes smaller, and he's just so wounded looking you're like that's when as a kid and now, I'm just like cuddly Edward alot. And here's my other thing. I wasn't worried about her messing up with missing his life because no, no, we you're. You're doesn't have much lifetime as well. So you just you just trust. And we like so one of the most relaxing. She. Relaxing, very good. I love her in general, but her tire demeanor. Apply will be just fine. Yes. It's got such an incredible energy in this thing. And we you know to Myrtle is not always the best with his female characters. He is very prone to turning them into sort of just finish up over in. This is a little bit of chore for. Uh-huh. But this character is so fucking good. And I was watching it trying to divorce. I mean, obviously, this is a movie that's written by a women. Well by reading by women win by one women. Yes. But but also, I think we adds a lot to it. I mean, there's so much nuance to every one of her reaction shots were you see her playing the her processing the enormity of Edward's life with every new detail that's revealed will injure that first exchange they have where she's like, you know, where your parents or whatever. And and he's like my dad fell asleep and didn't wake up and she's just like oh. And then liquidate you should come Ray. Right. Like you see like sixteen different thoughts. Go across her face doesn't let him see any of them. But that was the moment where I start freaking out for that reason. Why I was like, okay. He scary. He's hiding in the shadows. But then I immediately started having like an existential panic over like thinking about what his life was up until that point. Right. So he's like twenty he's never left this. House. The guy's been dead for how long you can't touch anything on cutting himself like just that sort of solitude made me like so deeply sad. But then the movie becomes such a fun world because of how quickly everyone like warms to him when rewatching it as an adult. I was shocked and so amused by the fact that this mansion is at the very end of their. Show. Her Medica is if you you people are living next to it and have never wanted thought about it ought about necessity of running out of houses to sell makeup in right, right? Right. One foot away but into this completely. I love that. I love that. Because I mean, it's it's a very like storybook devise. Oh, these people are so involved in in their own lives that have never questioned what's at the end of the right? The street. Also, just love the idea of like it's like to make a world so aggressively normal all the weirdness to be like clustered somewhere. And that's created this play. Yeah. It's like they shoved it all to the side and Vincent prices. Just like I'll live here. Then, you know, just walked into a mention, well, I think I've said this before in different contexts, but he grew up in Burbank. He said this is largely influenced by his upbringing in Burbank and how outside he felt. Like conventional sort of suburban community, but the other thing that apparently they claim deeply influenced. This movie is his time at California Institute of arts, the college I dropped out of and on cold paradise or whatever Valencia California. Okay. Wha- paradise is different put out in California on the tour when I was like dad, I wanna go here. This is the timber in college because I went there because Tim Burton. They said on the tour, and they were like have any of you seen the movie Edward Scissorhands? And then everyone like raised their hands and let gas and they were like so rumor has it Tim based the film on his experiences here being a weird Kook on top of a mountain with this creepy suburban town that feared him down. Boy is the creepy. Ribbon county actually wrong term. Yes. Or the or or did he feel like he was the one weird student and the other was like blissfully normal. This is where the metaphor doesn't totally track because it's a flattering to the school with non as my argue. It's not right. No. I would argue it's not, and it was it was really clear for shadowing that I didn't pick up on about. Why shouldn't go there? But like the schools on top of a mountain like, and it's a weird building kind of has that relationship to the rest of the city, which is otherwise closed off identical cookie cutter housing communities Godley and anytime you would like leave the camp. Which was like a tiny bubble and go down into Valencia proper. Everyone would look at you like. Like, the townspeople hated the seople townspeople hitch works three sukey made like apparently thing that influences movie was how terrified he felt of how terrified everyone was him. And he wanted to shoot in Burbank, but Burbank at this point of change too much to urban I think, and so they tried it in lutz, Florida home of passive future gets Sonia. Psoriasis. A great attempt a suburb. Okay, which I'm sure now in its own right is probably too. Like, you know, there's been too much. It's been built up too, much or whatever. But at the time looks just like a picture, perfect, sixties, American suburbs. And they told really good line here of it being like a heightened and stylized without being like wackadoo, Dr Seuss supper. I mean, it gets there with the haircuts makes it, but he has. On who's right by the end of it architecturally, I guess all the houses look normal. He's just like a lot of control over the color scheme, low control over the I mean, it looks eerie. It looks. I forgot about how you the quote unquote, normal people, right? But what else is? He's terrified of them. You gotta make people even creepy creepy guy that it was a period piece. Yeah. Right. It is. It is setting the sixties right at the art direction very much suggest sixties if I just sort of took it as not being set in any time. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it looks like that the wearing they're wearing the clothes. Yeah. They make. No, no, right. Does she have anything on her walls a hip youth? She is a hippy hippy a waterbed isn't waterbed sort of seventies of her seventies. More now is his upbringing. Maybe it was just. I don't know. Well, let's talk about the way who did the it's well try and calling the costume Holly. Well, so let's we should talk about cars for a little bit calling out with to be clear your big fan of for work. I am. Yeah. When we decided we were going to do this. And we were complicit people want to be on the show. I said hundred Coolio because he'll be able to speak at length about calling out with. I don't know they'll be able to speak about it. I said I resident calling out with expert, and you got very scared. Oh, yes. Because I I know we're going to work, but I don't it's. But, but that's the full extent of what I'm looking for is not like, it's not like I want you to like unspoiled. Your relationship to the Burton movies in general, right? Just such a this is her first collaboration with him. But she becomes such a part of the what has done before this up. I have the married to the mob, which is a great fucking. Yeah. Yeah. But no not much like manhunter. But like nothing where you're like. Oh, what an insanely designed movies? She hadn't made a movie that was the stylized. Yeah. Point shy. Love the. I mean, there's so many choices like the when when Edward is frantically and like pruning the roses wearing a rose sweater. And like some of those like, okay, I'm glad I'm glad that such on those choices can be made. And also, you look at the original drawing, and I feel like up until this point timber and had the way he would draw things. And then someone would come in and go like, okay, but we can't make something that looks. Like this and would try to convert it a little more into the real world. And it feels like she was the first person who made someone who just looked one hundred percent like living Timur and drying, and it was like role. So now, I'm done. It's like you. And I forever let's write off into the sunset. I love how much how many different like textures. There are on his suits that it isn't just like. He's like final some of its Matt and some of its shiny and some of its core. Heck shirt, like the next straps. Then your very inefficient fashion Julio your. Yeah. Chokers you should wear chokers. I mean, it's it's great. I'm I took notes because I'm starting a fashion line this year. Oh, definitely picked up a lot of things off his cost, Scissorhands inspired. Yeah. Jumpsuits are pretty big these days wearing a jumpsuit elite looking. Well, he's and he can't take it off take layer possible to remove right? Yeah. Because he wears his normal clothes over it. That's the weird implication is that maybe the flesh was supposed to be placed over that. No, if he had been finished, my understanding was just more. That's the kind of material that were best with sure hands. Yes. Oh, yeah. That will like it will keep up with with him if he's rubbing on it versus like cloth. What she would just tear. I do love the fundamental conceit. We have to buy into in this movie, where it's like, a brilliant. Scientists who can make anything decides to make his own living creature and just for transitional stage. He's going to have scissors. Right. Well, that's I watching it as a child. I always thought that the Tim. Ed's dad is inventor was very mean. Cruel. Man, interesting. I always read them as like a a mean cruel man who did this him. That's that was my reading of child. Do you still feel that way watching it? Now. Why would you put the we're too weird? Why would you do that? It's a crazy placeholder. It's a crazy place holder freeze placeholder, especially because his idea wasn't. I will make a scissor, man. We'll make. We'll make it as like, okay? I had my fun with you with this. Now, we'll go rubber. Here you go. Yeah. I always thought it was it was very cruel. Right. He was trying to punk him in a way with the Scissorhands. Yeah. Also to be a weapon was he what was the purpose of giving him scissor mo-? He wanted to a human to make cookies. You just make a robot cookie makers this should have given him cookie cutter hands jer instead of Scissorhands patisseries are cooler. They look I realize we watching it recently. I I fully relate it with Edward until the moment where the Bank told him yet. No credit. And then I was like oh nine people talk about having credit or not having feted true in film. It is that he has no credit. I knew ask someone with no credit still have no credit and very proudly don't play that game. The Bank really don't play the credit. My what am I happy moments? One of my proudest moments was closing a Bank account, very cool. And there were like you're going to need credit. You're gonna need what if we wanna buy a house. What if you wanna buy a car, and I am like I I came to this country not long ago. I have nothing. I don't want children. I don't wanna buy a house. I don't know how to drive I don't need anything. Well, and I don't think playing this game. You wanna move into a long abandoned mansion at the top of? Yes. Yeah. And those places you don't need a down payment. Exactly. Don't need them mortgage. You kinda got squatters rights. But that's I just love that. They take it to the Bank though, because it's just like we says like I'm going to make I am gonna figure it out selling the Avon stuff. Right. Well, let's just right now. Like, you know, you gotta you gotta in this country. Like, you can really you know, you can pull yourself up by bootstraps as long as you commit yourself and your responsible as long as you play the game. And they take him to the Bank to the banks. Like, we don't know who you are because you have Scissorhands, and you're a robot or something, and, you know, records get a job and get a car, right? Yeah. And I just love it Arkan. And we well that's outrageous because this is a miracle like you should have a Bank. That's that's one of the rules. Get a Bank account. I will say I actually I think our Bank account scare me. I have like a checking half debit card linked to my checking account, and that's my entire life. Even now that I'm financially stable same here. I don't wanna engage don't have a credit card. Yeah. I've never had a credit card. Bad credit boy, he's about because you're playing the game playing. Again, the game played me. Lost the game. Putting no yeah. Now on the bench. No, no, no, my parents. Also, no credit, no credit cards. No see my dad plays the game in loses. I'm the child of our. I'm like cool. I have a checking account and I will check on the chase app. Every five minutes to see exactly how much money those people. Yeah. My afraid I'm losing it. But I wanna know, exactly. How much can spend. Sure. Yeah. I'm terrified of money when? This is your money money loving money monster gone. So in my mind credit is always question. And they're like, well, what you what if you want to buy an apartment one day on your home one day, and my answer is when that day comes. I will buy it in cash, you'll just have a brief to have it. Why won't buy right, right? It's one or the other. You're too. Visions. Yeah. Right. And I think that things that way. I am realising. I mean, maybe he's kinda got it figured out. Eddie L daddy old. But well, but I like, you know, he's he's he's inherently altruistic, right, right and uncommonly gentleman and he wants to cut right? He was here. He said if you brief you find a briefcase of money, what do you do and his earnest answer was given to my to my family to buy presents for my friends. Alan is like well. No like, you know, you have to take it to the authorities. But et doesn't the I think the thirties are not really a concept. I love the gets the people. He loves doesn't reprimand him. She because I can see why it would seem that. That was the right answer. Right. Right. Right. And it's almost in her in her delivery of that line. It's almost like she's saying like, I once also thought also my instinct to buy present for my friends and family, but actually even though I don't really get it. Yeah. You're supposed to give it to the authorities. Yes. Yes. Right. Right. Yes. And so right. He doesn't want money. I don't think he knows what he's told like, well, if you're providing a service, you should be charging people and all that. But like he just wants to cut people's hair and cut people's he's hedges because he he they learned hardest knows that they like it, and he likes to make people happy sorta seems to be his general released. He doesn't have to communicate with people maybe much like tempered articulate man who can't string together sentence. But then when he makes these things people can respond to them, and it's like cool. This is my dialogue. Yeah. Right. If I can make this, and this makes sense to me, and my hands are built craft this and people are happy. That's on those are my relationship. I think it's important that the movie kind of reveals that he's not a simpleton and that link, you know, when he robs the the later, right? Would notice to come so sorry. And he's like I knew we were a new we were doing, but you asked me to write and like, that's she's realizing she's taking advantage of a nice person, not a stupid person. Right. Like, that's sort of the key difference. Because you do get that sense that the Mets did teach them a lot. Yeah. And there's a teaching him the manors when he's a deconstructed half OI on a tape. Right. He's a little Emily post creature. Yes. Just like holding my hands. We've been talking about this, but timber and SOGA fucking opening credits. Sequences love love and the score for this movie. So good very scored said he like he built it. So it worked as like an opera on its own like that that the story would work if you listen to just the album, which kind of does like a Peter and the wolf way and the title tracks are titled into like accident and such. But you have old Wenonah, which I think they do with your your impression was I thought flawless Dona. I think it's probably my favorite character in the history of films old Winona all and clearly Jj Abrams agreed with me because that's the only reason you would cast her to play old spock's we'll say the second or house like remember when she was old sparks. Isn't she forty will make spunk spokesman? But then you were like. Major up. She doesn't have a moment where she's not wearing old age make she does she does a kid. So there's Caesar. Winnowed one scene where he's like, mommy. You know, why did you like make me? Yes. Spock is a bit of an Edward scissor spunky scissor. Yeah. Yeah. But but yes, you have her tongue story. I love the image of the girl is like getting engulfed in the bed. I know I love that is crazy. Deciding perspective thing where she just looks like the bed is swallowed cougar style. Yeah. But I think he does a good job of not showing her face too much in this opening scene. So you don't immediately. I go together. It's my mom telling me, it was when Oneida blew my mind will okay that's makeup. Very good make makeup. But then you go through the window, and you get the whole sort of traveling through the house and the score has really good table setting thing he does. And then you go straight to like, Diane weeks, candy, colored suburbs. And I to love this like how small and hermetic their world is that she is like going to the same doors at the scene people. She's men could try to feral like, you know, in a by any freight, and she's. Funny. She has like all of her relationships figured out. She only knows twenty people, and none of them are going to buy products from her and she just this one day as like, there's one more house. But it's a good like nice economic setting up the basic dynamic of all the people in the town. Totally Kathy Baker very funny performance Jones Jones who fucking rules. Caroline, Aaron who's in like everything. Yes. Marge Olen Jones gets credit in the end credits for composing the organ music in this cool job which rules. Jones is one of those great like early timber in stock company. Oh, yeah. Yes. Even just when the moment like her name up in the crash, you're like the name of an actor in a timber movie. Yes. Oh, land Jones. Yeah. She's in Martha Texas. Mars attacks back in MRs peregrine. Oh, yes. As what as the peculiar boys boss at the supermarket? The peculiar boys bus. That's is that his most recent films. Time where we're finishing this time. We're recording. Yes. That's most recent Dumbo. Yeah. Okay. Another sensitive movie other sensitive movie. I mean Dumbo looks like they're setting it up to be a similar kind of. Here's an outsider who all these human beings are reflecting upon right? Right, right. We're seeing themselves in and their relationship to him and he'll much suffering. He can endure ret just can't deal with circus. Fetig? You don't like circus stuff. No. I I love. I I love Dumbo as a child me too. Live justly to scenes in bumble, the the the mother rocking. Maybe of mine. Yeah. And then the train going through that hill at night. Yes. During the rainstorm, but anything circus, just like the cotton, candy whimsy? Now. I don't do circus. Okay. Interesting. Yeah. I guess doesn't get enough credit for being good train movie deuce train. Right. You were a big train kit. Love it. Love the trim Dumbo when as a kid Dumbo. Was to elementary upsetting for me to watch that often like because it's Dumbo and Pinocchio and Dumbo and Bambi were the ones that. Yeah. Pinocchio watch a lot though fun. He's got like also upset very upsetting. Yes. Islands. That's more circus eve stuff when they're turning into the donkeys circus or carnival. Okay. It's carnivals. Okay. Another Frankenstein yet. Hey, another construct. Yeah. The half fish construct almost movie like six years that makes about it. Yeah. Junior has been trying to make a Pinocchio movie at we're where he's Djupedal. Yes. And then when Tim Burton left they hired hall, Thomas Anderson, and then he got fired. And now it's still hasn't been made. It's a tricky needle to thread, the Pinocchio story. It's fun because it is inherently a nineteenth century Italian novel about how children should listen to their parents because I used to read the book all the time in the book is basically like an Pinocchio didn't listen to Jimmy cricket, and he was hung from a tree when I get that. That's like every chapter ends, which Pinocchio being hung from a tree is essentially being choked out. Okay, by his own kind. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Well, it's like if another human choke to death. BNO dumped at Dumbo and Bambi movies about like loss of parents and like the inherent cruelty of mankind's. Yeah. That's right. Me out. My brother Jamesy would like void any movie that was like aggressively sad. Whereas like, I flop to because I wanted to feel but Dumbo I feel it was one of the only ones that he would watch because while the train shit because he was like vehicle kid. Yeah. Like a lot like a lot of little boys. Wheels engines see I just a train kit. Cars I wasn't as into interesting. I like train train. So they don't like cars maps, I like systems learning a train map things like that. You know, that was my deal James was very vehicles and was especially into like like like policemen firemen like any sort of like jobs rights jobs, upholding says likes jobs because my brother was like that like downst- like I will be a milkman. For six months. He was all in on that. And then he was like I'm done with that. I'm going to be a train conductor because I saw one right? So now, that's my new job. Yeah. My brother was really into this British TV show postman PAT's which didn't post. How would you know, we know because we're bringing it back later. It's so exciting when we bring it back. What what are you talking about? This is where we need to talk about whatever you're talking about a group in Brit logic. Watts. What's? Been holding back. God it would so much better. When we bring it back in the other episodes. I don't know look the point is postman, Pat, FOX postman, Pat patent his little Weck and white cat, right? Which show that not English puppet? Show motion little felt men who's a postman. Yeah. He looks like a hot dog. He does show you postman, Pat. He lives a little clearer and he lives in a little English town. And he delivers the mail little comfy has a cat called. Jess who's black and white, right? And you. Yeah. Usually the biggest issue is like, you know, the bridges out or something. Their name is smudged on the on the package, and he can't have never I have never seen that in my life for Britain. Postman Pat fireman. Sam get those. Yeah. And this was the early nineties and we used to have to get like family members to ship us postman. Pat and fireman. Sam VHS is new and then my father would have to like get people who could convert them from Hal end. Ligament. NTSC to pal or pal. We had to like get like contraband postman, Pat a multi region, right? Yeah. Onto new new cassettes. Yeah. Yeah. Postman, Pat and his black white cat, right? Yeah. I don't want to ever have a job. I wanna sit in a corner. Sure. And then sometimes cut things, do, you know, what is the most impressive aspect of this film sound mixing, okay. Like the because defect. Yeah. I think that's what really sells the movie and and the danger of how scary it is to have large sharp blades on your hands. Well, so much of the tension of the movie is will he eventually he does, bro. He cut the ones. He loves right? Like that's the, but Yes, What's so scary? Like every time because even when we right you're like, oh, no careful, but there's so many things where tumbler line when she says hold me. And he's like there's the moment where he's pointing out things in the window when Dianne Wiest is driving him through the neighborhood, and he strongly points almost slashes her across the throat. Yes. So they set that up very early on. And then the movie gets a lot of fun. A lot of mileage out allying bursts, waterbed. He's going to bring. Yeah. Yeah. But it is it is the like the Chekhov's gun in this movie is like when when when you got a friend. Yeah. But I just was watching this. And now, you know having. Worked in this industry peek behind the curtain. I was watching it and just, you know, home we're to sound mixing no just realize it would have sounded like dole, plastic, right? Right right on set her former would have been great. But it also just sound like dangerous. But like, yeah, you know, sure. 'cause there's zero chance, but there's such clear like snips every time. You're tickets any finger whether nights, cutting something you hear the clanking cure, the sharpness which like that. That's what keeps the tension in the air for the whole movie. Are you saying positions were really medal? I believe they were plastic. And if they were metal they were dull, I think this is one of those movies where they had like seven different versions, depending on what he had to do within a scene, but there's zero chance they were making that kind of sound sure you will Roope. I would bet they were plastic largely so that they weren't making sound right. Uh-huh. Because onset, they always just like, let's get clean. Possible like Roan to anything right in my like years of only getting hired to play the computer tax on cop shows, don't type that was the bane of my existence actually type was like the only thing you hired me to do is sit here and type intensely and they're like can your fingers be one inch above the keyboard. Oh, wow. And you feel so stupid when you're just like ghost typing a keyboard. That's right below one time. I can't even remember what the show was. But I dish ind for when I was an eye. Why was a dish inning? I think this is this is a Griffin Newman. This is it was. Yeah. It was a it was like very much like, you know, Jared and hands and then like, and then just like spilling of a soak quickly some facts the name I uses a joke because this is one I addition for and the project cancelled because of a lawsuit, but I was at one point in the conversation to play computer tech named Shalom Rodriguez. Oh my God. Let's try and cast as wide as possible here the other it's those it's in those little rolls than they can shoehorn diversity because they're not because they're just they're on screen sometime. So sure it can be a Reagan credits sites. Exactly did you or get a Hispanic? And then we'll pretend like the joke is it's funny that he doesn't match the other half. Of the name. Right. Right. Right. Right. It's like you either get Michael pain a-. His name is Shalom. You get me and my name's Rodriguez here. And there in lies the comedy. It was win win. And they got sued because it turned up the rest of the script was copying growth dragon tattoo. Perfect. Embellishment retreat. They were like four weeks away from filming and the Larson estate sued the network that was producing the pilot. Do you currently relate to Scissorhands? As a cactus. I think this is a big question because he was so much avatar from as a child I was very sensitive child who felt very easily damaged by everything fame, and you know, wells for boys kind of thing and this character, so elemental and like Wenonah was my biggest movie curse. That's the reason. David friends, I lo-. In general base. She is a bit. I I don't have a lot. Oh, no. I mean, this doesn't exist. But I'm saying when I was a emotionally undeveloped twelve year old. This is the perfect woman. She a very clean dress. And she's nice clean rescues clearly pretty and she's ninety. She's nice to the sad. Boy. I was like that's my dream girl. And didn't notice till watching it now for the first time in ten or fifteen years like, oh, there's no character Jason go back right back. But I was like, you know, I. I was watching it now through the prism of like is this one of those movies that like made a bunch of people feel like they had the latitude to go like you don't understand me. Absolutely. And there's there's certainly as base for those. I mean, it's a Donnie Darko Donnie Darko right of like Darko is this ten years later. Yes. Kind of happening. It is that for new generation percent because this was in winded Apu is the current. Chris. Yes. Yeah. 'cause Poos the start. Yeah. So you asking if I relate to it. Now, my battles. I was watching. It was like, I certainly have a muscle memory of relating to this elements. I connect to but I also feel like I've spent much of the last five to ten years trying to kick any sense of being a victim or misunderstood out of my head over horse, and that's very healthy, which I think is healthy. And I think this is one of those movies that can like cause people to fall into a trap to be like I never have to grow because I misunderstood it's their fault. Yeah. I mean, you can relate to it in a way that it's not really to this. I I I didn't. I don't think it related to it as a Sheild because I thought well, I'm not spooky I'm pretty you were. Yeah, we're really like. I'll be kind enough to be nice to actual. But I now I was like, oh, yeah. He has no credit. He's like. Wearily immigrant. Basically, he's like learning how this world word. He's not an American seeking asylum. Yeah. Yes. Seeking asylum old Eddie, except of course, he's not active in that way. Because he was brought right. Yeah. Right. I do love that. I mean, I I love the where say no, I'm just just just like I love stories like that of the like. Little mermaid is same. Right. Like in a world that she doesn't know how to use the fork. So she comes here is just like. The those are I think have been the immigrant stories for so long. Yes. Yes. V leg magical, the magical creature reach water sort of water. Right. And then this heightens that because it's like the fish out of water then goes into a normal zone. That is a heightened timber crazy normal or. I grew up in New Jersey in an unusual sort of town low class kind of town. Let's say usually say I love. Slash is more or less. How I yeah. And so seeing this now as an adult, I realized the parents and the dolts that treated me in a way that made me feel weird I really really related to that shot of Edward in bed in the water bed. Just kind of being like, I can't move. What is this? Like, I was like. Like like nice houses and just being like, oh my God. Everyone eight at a table together force suburban normalcy. Yeah. I felt that like pangs of being a young man and just being like confused by said nice, the nice families. So you related to him. Oh, for sure cool. I also grew up on a hill an old house and my dad Dennis me. And you didn't ever finish, right? No. You're still lacking. Spleen? Your dad is a tinkerer. You have no not a mud spleen bag where you're splaying. Right. I love 'cause I misremembered this. How little resistance Edward has met with at the beginning. Like, yeah, he's he's new and he's exciting. He's like picturing reveler should. Yes woman. The woman are it's a there. Heck hurt. Goes from like everyone like starting the whisper network of just like there's a man in town. There's a new man this is just mixing it up. Then they all are just like this is increased God your journey is so amazing like they're like so they worked so hard to understand him and try to accept him. There's that great bit. With the veteran who like goes up to him and hits his like hollow leg, but don't let anyone ever tell you. Right. And then at the end of the movie, he's the one who killed a cripple. Literally when it turns ugly. Yes, the the cop in the movie, so sweet, what am I ever care when he when he says, I it just keep me up at night knowing that, you know, my God, that's the thing. Like, almost you expect people meeting him with revulsion and then warming up to him. But instead everyone is like, well, we don't want to be closed minded, right everyone. Yeah. They're all in initially kind remain kind or they lead the the mom and Talladega to them, but they're distracted by their own stuff. Very much. Yeah. So it's like they're like the accept him. But then they just kind of move sort of don't have time to obsess, right? Right. Right. Other than die in. We put in the work everyone else's like patting themselves on the back for being nice to him and then walking away. Yes. And he's a bit of a curious. But I also think it's that thing of like whether like he will he can't be scary. Because then if you scary he's scary. Right. So he must be fine. And there's that thing know once when ONA finds him in the bed, and he punctures her such an arc and just takes downstairs, and he's like women. What are you gonna do 'em? Right. Justifiably upset founder scissor monster. He's drinking whisky strong. Gasping Arkansas, just sitting there like. Great. Is that like Arkan never plays? When I was a child. I watched this. I did not understand that character was supposed to be funny. Right because Arcus show bone-dry that I was like this is like the boring character just like the normal dad, and I didn't get what was funny was the fact that he's talking to Edward Scissorhands. Like, he's not at word scissor with the hairpiece when we're kit. I think it's great. Eighties dead here. Yeah. Wow. It's also because it's a thinning hairpiece. It's not a heavy rare being hairpiece love that big fan of that. Yeah. Everyone kind of like puts in their work like does their performance like we are so inclusive and then backs the fuck off until Edward realizes that he's an artist. And then he becomes the cost celeb-. I that that I hope Gary scene is so good when it soundtrack by the baseball game on the radio. All that stuff is just like DEP just plays. I like the like the the intricacies of it. Like, it just makes it seem not silly. But he's just flapping his fingers around in like leaves or flying everywhere. He looks committed to what he's doing like makes Edward locus. Yes. So emotionally dialed in right? And it makes you so happy to see when he's like proud of something right because they're those early scenes where she's trying to teach him how to smile, and it looked so fake one where she's trying to fix his face with makeup and applying the putty in I love that she keeps on going back to that. Like her calling the von lady herself to try to figure out if there's another technique. She couldn't use because you can't figure out what to do with his scars. But but yes, no. He finds a genuine pleasure in being able to express himself through this. This is something unique for once is not a hindrance. There feature not a bug. And then how does he get from there to the hair? It's just the dog. Right. He just nips things. Yeah. He's nipper. But this is a movie where you start to understand me. Be why women are underwritten in timber movies because timber is clearly terrified of sex. Like, the fact that cutting hair opens the door to women being turned on by him is treated as the scariest thing in the movie. Yes. Yes. Like this film is so uncomfortable about any sort of sexuality. There's also that tension of like, he's cutting their hair, and he's doing it so quickly, and they're mildly turned on by it. But oh, he like I kept thinking like, oh, he's going to hurt the right? Oh, he's going to snap a an ear. The even I feel contract feral someone has a line about like, that's the greatest thrill mine tire shot. I think. Maybe. But that becomes half of the thing is like, okay. He's a hair genius is the Cosso a hair, but be it's also the experiential thing of like, you know, it's it's like Russian roulette, I guess or something like that. He's he it's like it's like getting a close razor shave or whatever right here on the danger or something like it's a very high stakes version of like a trust fall. Sure. Like, the rush comes from the fact that you have to trust that he knows what he's doing. Because like one fall, which is inherently the tension with any hairstyle this, right, right? Cricked crabby a-. We'll be okay on my safe with you. Right. Right. But I also feel like because if it's not okay, it won't be okay. For a while. Right. But also often attention of sex. Yeah. Is this going to be comfortable? Yeah. Emotionally, physically like any of it. Yeah. You know, the movie shampoo. Yes. So good. Shampoo. Bawar beatty. Yeah. Hottie? Well, would you get your hair cut by Warren Beatty in shampoo? Edward scissor realize your hands. Door was hair styles are awesome. The cube. But in the other wars. Yeah. I'd rather just go up to Warren Beatty at a bar and asked him to touch my head. I don't wanna cutting my hair. Will you present that as an option, you warm babies obsessed with volume volume volume, I'm already a puff boy. Volume. I do like that. It is this high speed sort of frantic thing until the Dianne Wiest one which is treated as this vary. Like, this is the now he finally has a way to show his appreciation for what she's done for him and pay her back with the slick very tender percents haircut. Also thing we haven't talked about is. I love the clothes that he's given the suspenders slacks tucked in white shirt. It looked so it is such a cool design Gan, then everything goes wrong at the end, right 'cause come into minute forty even then you still kind of while she's ignoring him. She's got her boyfriend making faces at the dinner as the he's nice and their boyfriends jerk. Right, right. Anti Michael hall. You know wants to steal his dad's TV. Sure his dad like such as slimy. Disgusting. Like like American jock thing to like feel your father, right, right? Right, right. I'm scared of my own. Pointing to the old, man. But he realized it's a smart scam. Though what? Yeah. Your dad's TV, you know, I think that's a good plan and then step to where do you put it? You sell it. So go to a pawnshop, and then he gets the money. I always breaking into his own house is on. Why can you remind why he doesn't have used to his his dad has this special room? It only he has the keys to were all his fancy shit goes because he knows his son is. Like, if this character were a little more self aware he'd relate to Edward in that his right? My gender. Roadhouse, right. He's perceived as dangerous. He can't go around. Nice things. He. Yeah. But this guy said he thinks about. Given rearrange to go anywhere. He wants in that house having Scissorhands when he runs away Arkan's. Just like, hey what over there? I don't know. Walk knows it's a privilege. Not a right. This isn't no Eleanor can singing on the rooftop is later, right? When. Stapling snow because this California he he's really having a go at that size creating Oscar for little miss sunshine. But I mean for this, right? But they said accidentally like this Larkin's, I kinda me award for singing on the roof and little miss sunshine. Yeah. You know, it all goes wrong. We know what goes wrong. He's a scissor, man. I it's going to go wrong. Yeah. That inevitability scared me as a child. I just didn't know how wrong it was going to go, and I didn't want the fun times to last like once I had been lulled into the security of life. They accept him. It's fun. He's an artist. I so dreaded the turn. But obviously he makes the ice sculpture and rain on dense snowbo- right after. Thought was the peak of romance. Yes. Zoe. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was has your Jehovah your relationships and been through your life. They tend to dislike the fact that I wear Scissorhands. I would say, but they love the snow cyst on my relationship goals. This is who I learned from. What else is there? Anything? The the thing that always shocked me as a child and honestly shocks me. Now is that he kills someone if the yeah, right, right? Yeah. Like, you don't think he's going do? It's also shocking as the bully should know that he don't fight poses or don't. Scissorhands? Right. What's grace? Well, he's he's so cocky, right? Such a, you know, downtrodden doormat of a person thinks, but he ignores the old adage never bring a fist to acidify. Right. He's fighting with fists in a in a scissor fight. David brings up steady doesn't have a good definitely does have a gun. Plot in the movie is the sun from Honey, I shrunk the kids trying to get Edward to play rock, paper, scissors. Yes. And then getting tired of playing rock, paper scissors with such a such a fun baby little joke. It's such good kid. Logic of this guy would be the best to play with his hands are one of the things, and then realizing no he's the worst play with only one of the things. How do you guys feel about vans with flames? I mean, I like, oh, yeah. I think you're morning. They saw that as a kid, and I was like fuck I want that van. So. Yeah. I. The licenses suspend is it really. Yeah. I thought when you ask that question, you meant like slip on shoe to Tampa on them like van? Limited edition guy Fieri vans, which I'm very into those those are cool. I are shoes are cool. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know there other things to talk about here. No. I mean, it all goes Pete Tong, the English would say, and he's chased to the mansion. Yeah. And by people with pitchforks pitchforks. But they might as well. Right. And the cop helps them cover up the murder. No one no one reading picks the body. There's no there's too scared. They wanna they wanna forget about that. As no informing of will. What about this kid's parents? No clear fucking. Yeah. They just dissipate. Just like, look, I mean death is death cancels it out like grew to hate the other one too. But now, they're both. We were gonna lose one guy from the community. Right. This was probably our first-round pick. Right. I also feel like the the the ideas that may be like a generation or two later. You know, people forget about it. The house will just stay there. He'll just stay there. Right. And then maybe once again, someone's interests will be piqued enough to sort of like go check it out again. And maybe he'll come back so close still to all these right? Just like choose to turn him into a legend. Right. But but I mean, it is kinda nice that like anti Michael charges for him. Right. And then he. Ticks the hands out sort of self defensively. So it's not like he didn't know gonna kill him. It's also not like he's a new shocking. This is like a PG movie. You know, you just don't see going this with that much blood on his blades. And all of this stuff is also the thing you expect he's your hands. Man. Right. You know, we are finally. Yep. The west and the surrender is like I this is where I belong. I should sit by myself in this corner for the rest of time, which which I just found unbearably sad like this cry a lot as a child, but I do think obviously at the point that timbers making this movie he like his his art has connected with the masses. He's found his place. He's very successful. People are letting him follow his whims to the end of the earth. So I don't think it's about him actually feeling disconnected from society as a citizen read this point. I think the movie is just about him being like, I don't. Think I will ever understand other people. Yeah. You know, there's this concession the fact that Edward chooses to stay that the movie doesn't end with the people killing him. But it ends with him being like, I'm just gonna sit here and pretend that I'm dead and just wait out my attorney, I guess so is him just sort of maybe, you know, maybe things will change. Yeah. Maybe I'm back, right? The daughter comes back or whatever the granddaughter. I don't know. But be does it does just feel like him being like, it doesn't matter? Art pitch what Edward Scissorhands too. I just sold for five million dollars. Wow. This time around as she goes back up. And he's there still granddaughter. Yeah. Although actually, we should talk def because that's the real reason you ever making instill this is I will say we've been watching. I've seen a lot of deputies. Something is not a great time to rewatch tap. This is the one that makes me the saddest you mean, just because of what was sort of once so great about him as a performer. Yes. And also, I think he was able to run off the juice of this movie for so long terms. He also is misunderstood like he's not one of these Hollywood movie stars. Yeah. Not some asshole. He's actually this weird wounded law soul. It's Kohl's browse right? Cole sprouse of his time. Because I think that was the thing everyone thought was just another pretty boy, actually, he feels as weird as we do, and then sort of come. To realize like, oh, no. Maybe he's just like the same sort of like, but he's talented. So there's that or was talented. I mean, even amber heard in her allegations. And all that, you know, when when they were having the divorce was pretty clear about like he became an alcoholic and drug addict. Yes, where she was saying he was not always alcoholic and right leg. You know, he has entered a spiral of super addiction that is ruining his mind. Yeah. Like, she. That was very like she included all that like, the divorce papers and all that sort of stuff when they were like figuring out their divorce. Yeah. Yeah. And also read all those pieces about it. And you just like how late like how much fucking money he was making off the Caribbean movies. And it's like that's just not good. Will that kind of like when people stop saying, no to anything and you start having insane amounts of money, especially when you're a weirdo, right? Like, it's the same thing with like. Like nNcholas cage bankrupted himself buying dinosaur skulls. Right. He built a pyramid like in the desert that he lives in or whatever reason why the people who have billions of dollars are like boring businessmen. Yeah. I mean, it's really a slippery slope. Right. Like don't have interest or personalities and just really having money. Right. Yeah. Whereas I think if you like things, and you have access to all that money. You start going insane. I like wine, and I'm so interested to just see like a like a rundown of what he re consuming. Yeah. Week of how expensive these bills wasn't that? The thing though, when they were like, it's been said, you're spending thirty grand a month phone wine. He's like that's outrageous. I spend way more than that. Like in that recent Rolling Stone. Lander also you it's fifty. The of him drinking like a burgundy from like eighty something and just slamming it down. That's so crazy. Yeah. Right, right. He's just like drinking wine like it's cans of beer, I believe he's still in that state that Rolling Stone article suggested that he's basically just like a hash smoking Munster. Right. And that he was sued front city allies for punching someone in the lawsuit was like he just reeks about and does drugs on the movie is still not been released and he lives in his own weird. Like mansion he's had to sell most of his properties, including the small French village that he owned not only did you on a Caribbean island, but he owned a small French village in which he owned every house in the village paid to keep staff on retainer for the different houses. So he was like this house is our kitchen. This house is our dining house, like just here's a small quaint, beauty and the beast style awhile. But that's the thing. Like if you're joined up, and you're like a love the way feels to be in a small rustic French village. And they're like, hey, here's eighty million dollars. Then you do. That then you build your French wino-. Disneyland. Anyway. He now lives in like a mansion he never goes outside. He's vampire, and he drinks all the time apparently on people surrounded by like, the people who work for him with his employees right banned in there called Hollywood vampire. Yes, sir. Shoebox escape. We should. Okay. Cool. This movie did did weirdly. Well, yeah. This movie made I'm gonna get you the total fifty six million dollars. See I'm so bad with money. I don't know if that's a lot of little movie well adjusted for inflation. It's about twenty. Yes. Or little it's a lot of money for any movie. But it except for a really big. But it's a lot of money for movie like this. Yeah. This movie was that expensive. What do you think? I think probably cost about twenty thirty. Yeah. And place them about one St. exactly right. A million dollar budget. Right. Right. And beyond that like a sort of like right doesn't have a big well known as maybe approaching big start at that point. But like huge star probably a million. You know, like, it's certainly not a movie that's guaranteed to be a huge success at opened small theaters. And it's face may be looked like the small passion project. He made in between Batman movies. And the fact that it worked at the. Time rather than being a cult hit years later is kind of surprising. Yeah. So it opens limited release to theaters December seventh nineteen hundred ninety number one that week in its fourth week. My guess is. It's the biggest movie of the year of nineteen ninety. Yes. It is the biggest movie the year two at a kids movie. Very christmassy a alone, home, alone, home alone. I don't get the. The American obsession with home alone. I. I know go go. I remember I remember scenes of it that I like all the you know when the the little traps. But there's this incredible nostalgia for home alone. That I I can't seem to access even even even though when a when I was that age, or whatever I really enjoyed it. And I loved it. It feels like left it being a thing in the last few years where our generation has started demanding that it be ushered into the canon as like one of the undeniable classics and not even like, that's like a movie, we all nostalgia for. But can we all agree that it's like, it's a wonderful life home alone. You know, which I don't get now. That's a movie that I would watch him bits and pieces on TV. I maybe V formative some here and watch it a lot right? I didn't see it in theaters to lot more because it was sitting in New York. Yeah. Yeah. I'd watch that one too Trump's one of my favorite actors. But it is weird to me. How like it's gone. Not just even like goonies thing where it's like, well, it's kind of cheesy but come on. We all love the goonies to being like, we all. Agree that home alone is a flawless masterwork. Right. Right. Right. Very odd. To me. I don't know. I'm not shitting on the move. No. It will say though in its fourth week into made the pretty much the same maintenance first weekend. It was one of those crazy home alone as Scissorhands no-no like home alone. So I'm saying like eight home loads fourth weekend. It's making home loans. I it keeps on just seeing one of those weird phenomenon kept going back. Yeah. One of the ten highest grossing films of all time. Sure. It was crazy. Crazy successful. Yeah. Adjusted five six hundred million dollars. That's insane. Like it did like the fucking same amount. The Black Panther did this year. He puts the aftershave on it spurns his face. Sure. I don't remember that. Shaving was. Yeah. He wants to be a grownup puts his hands on. Remember that? He also brutalizes these two burglars with various weapons they're more than just burglars. They are wet band, which is good name for your band, accrue and likes wet things. And I say that in the least very number two's, very snowy movies. Well, Harvey a snowy horror film sort of again with Chris is very christmassy. Interesting moments. Another winter. Snowy horror film. That's an Oscar December's crazy. What the a movie this is? I love this. Visit when a performance best actress wins best actress owed the film, misery misery, Kathy Bates, James Caan. Yeah. That's it. So I wear saying money scares me. But the this is the one money thing that makes sense where I have this weird walks off his hat a log for box office Shershukov misery, huge hit. Yeah. Not a huge it actually just a solid hip. A surprise, you know, could movie into win for Kathy Bates. Yeah. Number three is I feel like that's like a head of time Stielike on like I feel like you go to Bushwick. Now. A lot of girls are dressed up like any Wilkes sure with the sort of little dress in the the bow and the ceramic penguin, always points north. Yeah. That's what she says the movie. Yeah. Yeah. And certainly go to Bushwick. It's lousy. Ceramic penguin? Yep. Yep. Caucus didn't get out of the cockatiel car. Number three is is an old star at a new star together. The old stars directing says, a hard movie to explain Sarney's are also to give clues claims film. Is it the one with Kevin Costner? No. Clint Eastwood even younger and new person unless good Charlie Sheen called worst movies in the very forget about it's not called the scout. So it's called something. It's not called the recruit. No. But it is an are. It's not called a rookie. It's the rookie. Really? It's called weird. One of these two haven't seen number four is the best picture winner. The year of nineteen ninety cer-. Boy, this is your boy, you just said his name. I just said his name Eastwood. What's what does as name literally? You just said is Eastwood is your boy. No, he's not as boy say. Let's say just five seconds ago. You were trying to guess he's co star. Oh costner. It's dances with wolves. Just I'm sorry. Oh, my movie we haven't Kevin Kevin Costner, and they cut it out. But the gift lows forever. I live for the I read this the one thing I right into my contract. They gotta be a gift you got to give you gotta gotta gaffe. Gotta get Griff. Number five is a sequel to one of the highest grossing films of of a few years ago. It's Rasa comedy, very very high concept comedy on three men a little lady three men and a little a little lady was that one directed by nimoy as well. He Moi's out. He's not interested. It's weird that Spock directed the highest grossing film of a year. Yeah. He made three hits. And then he made three weird movies. And then that was that. Yeah. Gene wilder movie that he made his like disaster if the last one gene wilder ever did Leonard nimoy. Yeah. So that's it. We're done. Well. What's to say Edward Scissorhands? We Santa legend. Johnny Depp, send us some wine Raisch or he's looking to kick some of the collection dip seek help and be publicly accountable for your sins. Lease. Yes, do you think? Tim Burton was Anderson like each other. I you know, I had that I've always had this. They've always been like the sun and the moon to me. Yes. Yes. Yes. One, you know, the the pink to the black the vary like decided the static. It's an interesting question. They're the two sides of the same point. And they're both fundamentally comedy directors, which I think people sometimes lose track of that like comedy is the main thing they're interested in, but they can also make dioramas together. Right. The big difference is that like Wes Anderson has just become like more and more analog like moving backwards retro technique, and Mr. to Burton is the green screen on WSB, green rain screen. Yes. He green screens green screens into green screens. Yeah. And then also now like he doesn't seem to generate his own stuff anymore. Like he sits around and waits for someone to be like Dumbo. He's like fine. Yeah. You know? Whereas what's Anderson's like he's he's cracking open. That notebook every time coming up with something new. There's monogram notebook his his very carefully monogrammed notebook. Where just I guess to sort of speed around. I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot with this. But the reason I knew about the Colleen Atwood thing than you were such big fans because your favorite movie the last couple years was a Huntsman winters worth my favorite costumes to right. Is that an that? Would that was that movie? Yes. Yes. The that was a movie that was costumes. I write that was you kept on going bananas about the poster campaign for that move. Yes. 'cause they had a lot of individual. There's no gold. Yeah. And I and I loved it wasn't a battle of the elements necessarily because one was is was goal. Right. Right. It wasn't Myron is it wasn't silver goal was ideology. Of snow and have you seen this film? I have not seen this. Oh my God. It is it's crazy the logic. It's it's a both a prequel Endo sequel to this opens like in media recipe, you go back to was still around and the because isn't surely is only in like ten minutes. He's only like right at the beginning of the end. She's at the beginning of the end, which a best because that's when the queens are their right is just sliding queens. Yes. In queens is good the fighting queens. And I completely forgot thing and Hemsworth, right? They have a lot of it where they're both like soldiers on either side of interesting kind of play Merida from brave. Sure, she's a war. Warrior type. Yes, she's got like these two were curves. That was my take away from the movie was like, oh, the first ones, obviously riffing on Snow White, and this one feels like they're now riffing on brave and frozen. It's it's a perfume commercial turn into an action film. And it is so funny. The Charlie's Farren comes out of. Emily blunt is looking at herself in the mirror as Queen of is. And she goes mirror mirror in the wall. Who's the fares of the mall, and then Charlie's there and comes out of the MIR and goes this this, and so you're. And then Queen of is ask we have goals. Exclusively. Gold but sister, are you dead and the Queen of gold goes not dead, but not alive just somewhere in between. And you can tell that the creators of the film. Don't know the answer. They do not know the answer. So crazy. I don't think that film had a script or anything like like, you said, it was just they decide. This'll expensive herald affirmation improv. Yeah, they the the Queen of ICES wardrobe. I read or saw that shoes meant to look soft and hard of the same time. In availa, Hans like she's. She is a Queen and she's beautiful, but she's also like this kind of like warrior. Yes. So she chain mails skirts. Sure. Scissor feats. Yeah. Are there? Any other just before we wrap up sorta like Burton stylized cons that you wanna like pinpoint throughout the rest of the filmography other. Other Burton looks that like have stood out to you over the years of the Burton looks. I mean, anything that becomes Halloween cost the beetle Beetlejuice like while just like wild hair stripes. Yeah. Pretty pro stripes and the not normally, but I just thought that was great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah. You you've been like out of the country foaming we like just in time just in time because you're going somewhere. I'm going on a low vaca- great on a little good for you. He's going on a vaca-. That means fans. Listen, oh, the classes gonna post a little late on the twentieth. That's the thing that it means. We have seen gloss. Alrighty. I I'm now going on a trip and right when I land. You're going on a trip to process glass. And then he'll right. Yeah. But I'll give you my heartache, David. I'll let you say the heartache, no Glasser piece. It's a classroom. Wow. Definitely I think we'll have already. We'll disagree with us. Most people are other phone could exert angry with me and keep saying things like explain yourself. I liked it. I thought it was good. They thought we were trolling right? They kidding genuinely a few like I was a grinning ear to ear at the end of the movie like riding a high. I was chanting. Felt perfect movie. That's what I felt like I went this is a glass trapeze I felt that when I saw Valerian and the city of thousand planets, I mean, don't get this guy star. I saw it. I was I was away. I was in Scotland. And I and I haven't read anything about the critical reception or the box office in the city of thousand plants, and I go in. Hoping for the best. And I come out and think timeless classic will come out and think perfect. You're right. Absolutely. And then I read that everyone hated what David put it on his top ten of the year in the pages of Atlantic. Which was founded by Ralph WALDO Emerson Harry Beatrice. And then later I wrote about elyria they died for your sins. Well, let's spooky will be premiering sometime this year sometime this year, supposedly, yes. You're you're you're one of the best in the biz. Oh, thank you. That's face week. You are too. Oh, thank you. Are you people are best in the biz? Yes. Yes. And David is also the vessel. Another person's the best in the business producer Bannock. Hey, the Ben doozer Poland Dory decay, the Ha's k Mr. positive positive peoper aka Hello fennel far detective meat lover, smoking, wet Benny white-hot Benny role nicknames. You could okay. Okay. Is down the hallway Kylo ban is three your weather. Right. Been kanobi Shamlan say save anything dot ill with the dollar sign. Wore house were Bain, then nineteen the fennel maker really insightful. Mr. been credible. My forgetting one Bengalis obviously, eat drink. Ben Hasley is and just trying to run through the merit Wilson. England. Ause day worse. And then we don't have to tell me. Oh. Hey, humble brag. You what what am I humble bragging near phone cranks? A member. Hey, you know, what what thank you for listening. Please remember to rate resubscribe things in for Gouda for social media. Job on payrolls for Kleeman. For theme. Song Goto blankets. I read a conference some real nerdy shit go to public or some real nerdy shoots. Remember sign up for blink. Check special. Features are pitchers pitch around comback slash blinked. Check and has always oh ya because we got new stuff coming out new Merck. Newark New merch announce next week announce next week. Have you episode two hundred imagine two hundred of these two hundred where breaking some glass for episode two hundred. We are breaking glass, but it'll come out a little late come out late on Sunday early Monday. Yes, that's just because of acacia scheduling, we'll let me begin nerds. Okay. Hold onto your hammers. Don't be slided mess. Jimmy and yelling at me. It'll. Be out. Let me Cape. Please. And as always. Right. All set ever. You're all set. You have it pulled up. Do. I have no to pull up. Good a good IMDB who'll right? Quote movie. Okay, podcasts. It's gonna be stupid. I for it. So that's how I open to every. So you have to say you could have gone out there, you could still go. And then you say, how do you know, he's still alive? Good me. Just getting a character trying to channel actually wearing forty pounds of percents mak- live. It's four wasn't bad makeup. I think it's really good. Yeah. I remember mall save this. I'll say this. Are you ready? Okay. Sure. And really feel the character.

Edward Scissorhands Tim Burton Johnny Depp Batman Robin Hood Warner Brothers Caroline Thompson apple director Jonah David SIMS Saturday Night Live Diane weeks Griffin David Niger Dona Essa teric
Alexi Ashe Meyers

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

2:03:47 hr | 11 months ago

Alexi Ashe Meyers

"Hi Everyone Sophia. Bush here welcomed a work in progress where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where. They think they're still going. I'm so thrilled to have Alexi. Ashe Myers on the PODCAST. Today she is a bad ass. Attorney with sanctuary for families. The CO chair. You're the New York state anti-trafficking coalition and a founding member of New Yorkers for the equality model which you'll learn about on this episode bills to decriminalise prostitution Russian are popping up across the country but Alexi and other advocates believe that there's a better solution to actually support the people in the sex trade. This was a really interesting discussion discussion. Because there's a lot of misinformation about this topic. I learned a lot from Alexi that I didn't know. And it's certainly made me feel more invested in this debate in how we move forward to better protect people and make sure that. We're not opening up loopholes exploitation. So I hope you'll share. What what you've heard after listening and check out our instagram page for more resources? Thank you so much for coming on really excited to to have you on the pod. Thank you for having me. Yeah I WANNA I wanNA jump into your work but I always like to start with people and kind of rewind because I find that we're always having conversations when someone's in the middle of a huge initiative or some great big accomplishment and I'm I'm always curious how you got here here and I like to ask everyone what you were like is a kit it gives you flash back to yourself around you know eight or ten were you. Were you a tiny social justice warrior at that age already. I was so I'd say that human rights issues really come by me honestly. My grandparents are Holocaust survivors. So that was a topic that was in my house from as early as talk I always knew their story. I was always proud of their story. They came and spoken my classrooms. We went and saw them speak. And so oh yeah. When I was probably ten I played Anne Frank or I read an frank passages at the opening of an frank exhibit in Albuquerque New Mexico which is where I grew up and signed so yeah human rights abuses? Were just something that I was always on my radar. I was also very argumentative and everyone always always said they knew I'd be a lawyer and so I I also it's so funny I'll go back sometimes and find highschool essays. I wrote a personal essays as for applications to things and I can't believe how true to myself I still am. And it's almost embarrassing like I'm just GonNa Cliche of myself. That's sort of amazing now. My my dad many times a year likes to say to me. I just can't believe you didn't become a lawyer and I'm like take that as a compliment sir. I think he's meeting in a backwards compliment. Maybe but I think when you really can be researched and and also passionate enough to defend whether or not the defense is popular or the subject matter is fun. Right is a great quality. Yeah it's pretty cool. What was growing up in Albuquerque? Like I I I ask because I could be ten years ago. I got to be out there for five weeks. I was in Albuquerque and Santa Fe working on a movie and it was amazing in yet. I didn't really live there and I'm just curious. I probably didn't appreciate it as much as I should have. But no one ever does when you're in it. I love to visit there. There's no bluer sky or cleaner air or more beautiful landscapes but also it was really culturally rich. I went to a high school that was incredibly diverse. While also and to this day being the best education got of all the schools I went to. I wish my kids could go there. But I I really love New Mexico and I feel it a deep sense of connection to that culture awesome. Yeah I spend a Lotta time just marveling at that sky. Yeah The Sky's beautiful we. I grew up in the out in the middle of nowhere between Santa Fe and Albuquerque and so like weekend activities dirt biking and hiking and looking for pottery shards and you know as Askins do so cool. I've always been sort of. I have that feeling of romantic nostalgia. I guess you could say Georgia O'Keefe oh totally her property property and visiting Ziamon Santa Fe and amazing. Oh my God I just think yeah. My sister got married there last year really amazing. Wow so when you were little you know you mention reading Anne. Frank's diary what. What other things were you reading as a kid that you think may have shaped in this in you? They were probably all holocaust books. It was all night number the stars and all of those. Yeah the fancy drew. Of course. Nancy drew's a classic. Yeah Yeah I was always into really serious things as a kid. My favorite show was Murphy. Brown I thought that was weird but I loved it. Oh my God it. Wasn't it. The vast yeah she was she was in is my my icon of icons but I was also. It's a nerd and went deep like we went to Rome on a family trip and so then I read the agony and the Ecstasy. It also probably ten years old which my mom kept telling me. You don't have to finish that but yeah I wanted to. But when you're a good student you start initiative. Yeah I totally get that and when you were little and diving into all of that subject matter and you know mostly serious with a sign of Nancy drew. Did you think about becoming a lawyer or or did you have other ideas of what you wanted to when you grow up. I know I do think guy thought I'd be a lawyer after like real childhood. Fantasies of astronaut Auden firefighter and stuff. So you mentioned your family and when I was doing some research I learned that your mom. mm-hmm is a social worker and activist and curious. What growing up with a parent who works in a space like that teaches you and what you think you you learned from her now? My mom is really incredible. I mean it's because of her her. It's her parents. who were the Holocaust survivors? And it's and it was through her lens and filter really that I learned about it so it was the way in which she chose to pass that legacy onto her children and the way in which she show us what was important. She also then started a nonprofit where she writes curriculum. Two movies that teach cross cultural understanding and uses film as a way to teach children and reach children on so many different levels so I watched that as I grew up in watched her start this from an idea she. She had one day that she really turned into something huge. And then this doesn't quite fit in the same realm but another thing that my family did when when I was eight is we adopted my brother from Russia he was five and we again. I like went full in and learn everything I could about Russia and Siberia where he was from and wrote a whole report on it and and that at such a young age just broadened my world to know that there was so much more out there than what you you just would learn in a classroom so my parents gave us a really rich childhood in that sense. That's amazing. What was it like having at eight years old in having a sibling show up? who wasn't a baby already five? There's actually really exciting. I didn't have to deal with like. Where is the baby crying? I just got to have a playmate immediately. I was so proud of him. We went to the same school and I walked down the hall and check on him every couple of times a day and he spoke Russia N.. And people would come to me and say like totally is saying this and Russian. What does it mean and I would translate and I just? It was fun. It was immediately fun. He's the best and and now my sister brother and I all transplanted to New York and live within two blocks of each other knows you guys get to see each other all the time. Yeah that's amazing tell. We are too overbearing. Bring in overwhelm him and he disappears like back off his big sisters get on his nerves. Yeah that's fair. Yeah that's fair my I I my cousin. I grew up with my three cousins. Who are like my siblings? John is the oldest and there were times where she'd look at me and the boys like get away from me and we'd go okay. We've done it. We've pushed her of going to the backyard. Yeah it was really really fun so you you go through or your childhood In New Mexico and you went West for Occidental College Right. That's so cool I grew from Pasadena. Occidental it's so great we did. We did one huge production of a musical. I worked on in high school and we got to do it. Happy is theater and it was the biggest biggest deal yes set of so many movies too. It's the most beautiful campus. It's so beautiful. How did you decide you wanted to go there? There was actually a weird pipeline between my high school and oxy. I think like thirteen people from my graduating class going. Who went there and both really small schools so it was kind of Nice and so you just visit it and want to be there? Yeah also Obama went there casual pretty cool. I could do to talk to him about Autho once so cool. Yeah and what did you study. Their politics Okay and I thought I wanted to work in local politics so I went a to the city attorney's office after graduating and worked there but I was in the Family Violence Unit and learned about you know the intersection between domestic violence and family violence and child abuse and I was also doing a lot of work in La USD and gang prevention through the different programs we created and so that really then cemented that I wanted to go to law school. What do you think that was looking at as you said all the intersections intersections of violence and how it affects families and communities? What do you feel like illuminated for you? I think saying people's vulnerabilities and and and wanting to use whatever tools I could to help change it when I see the state of things so many times and talk to people about how depressed they are and I at least feel like I'm doing something I don't know if I'm making a difference but I'm at least doing something in activity would just feel too depressing Yeah the thing that motivates me a lot is thinking no one of us is going to be able to fix it but if we're living in service to to the solution yeah then we're doing something right so while Occidental you were working on city office yeah and then after law school for a few years and then went there law school. Can I ask you a question before we get school. What are you actually? Because I'm sure some people are listening to you. Talk about what you're seeing but I'm curious if you can explain to listeners and honestly to me as well what you were doing when you were working there what what is your day in and day out. So the unit I was in was actually really unique and it was a crime prevention unit which prosecutor's Office is amazing because so much of what prosecutors do is after after a crime happens so we worked with you L. A. USD and with local precincts and we had different presentations. One was was called no secrets and it was for children about how to prevent sexual abuse and those with a retired. LAPD officer and it was a curriculum that we had written and another one was a truancy prevention program so we went in and really educated. About how true and see at school down the line leads to to gang involvement and how to really keep kids out of gangs so that was largely my day going around to different schools and then we would host conferences to learn to other other jurisdictions are doing and educate them about our programs. You know there were things that as a non lawyer. I couldn't do like right. There's something called a u visa. That victims and survivors of domestic violence can get if they show that. They've complied with law enforcement. And so I would help like with the initial process of that couldn't actually write the visa application. And what do they get when they get. UV's what does that mean it's a it's a visa that allows them to stay here. Oh Okay Yeah Yeah. Wow that's amazing. Yeah and so. Was it realizing that there were certain barriers to your work by the. I couldn't do more or I wanted to do more. And so then how did LASCO happy so I just went down the street from our from where I was working where I was living in kind of plowed through law school. In in two years I spent a summer in The Hague studying at the international criminal courts and tribunals and learning about war crimes and I really really loved that and wanted sort of a job in that area but what really when hearing about war crimes it was always the women women and children's stories that really got to me which somehow led me to trafficking and so then I turned. My final internship was at the smelly mom foundation and everyone else in my law. School was so much more traditional they were at firms. I felt a little bit like the Impostor Syndrome working at a nonprofit off it but it felt right and I and I didn't want to push like a square pole and whatever the thing is I just didn't I didn't fit at affirmative not. I knew I didn't want to go that route so I really loved working at the Somalian Foundation. And when you're an intern you do a lot of research and a lot of reading in what I was learning about was how much trafficking actually occurs here and that it was real. It's really important to also to work abroad. But that if while I was looking I'm from my next step New York there is so much to be done right here and that I wanted to be part of that. I think it's so interesting that we hear about these global issues whether it's sex trafficking or period poverty or inhibitors to education access and we assume they happen everywhere else and then you start looking at the numbers and you realize it's literally happening all around us and we've probably seen it and had he began to help people make sense of that through the work. cutty educate people about what's happening in their community. Yeah I think there's a lot more awareness of human trafficking as a domestic issue Now than there was even five years ago but I just I mean I talk about it everywhere I can at every I'm asked about it so At an any dinner party any any social gathering on social media just talk about it and spread the word but also correct people's misconceptions that sex trafficking happens in Southeast Asia and on an Eastern Europe. And not here and what it what it means because I think a lot of people think that sex trafficking means you have to cross borders. You have to you be kidnapped you know. It looks like the movie taken when in reality. It's so prevalent and domestic sex trafficking. Looks really different than that. Can you tell us that's what it does look like. There's different kinds. What I saw in my work? As a prosecutor of human trafficking cases is that communities tend to new traffic their own communities so for American born exploiters and pimps they traffic the girls right out of their their high school is out out of the corner store they know them through their cousin or through a friend they meet them on social media and they prey upon them in different ways they use different techniques six but more common than than what you see in movies as the protector. Romeo Pam who uses seduction Dan and and more subtle coercive tactics to exploit the person that they are preying upon and pimps really intentionally recruit crude people when they're at their most vulnerable when they're young when they're homeless addicted living in poverty they primarily target women and girls of Color People in the Lgbtq Community Youth in foster care we work really closely with Covenant House here in New York and the director of the human trafficking initiative their talks about how pimps wait outside Covenant House they put ads out if you live at Covenant House and WanNa make money contact me God so they really prey upon donnas vulnerabilities. And I think the point you're making about the sort of protector or even romantic coercion is really interesting. Because we do often see these relationships or or or these situations represented in ways that are you know hyper I realized for entertainment. And they're represented as though they're this like you said someone being kidnapped or abuse usually doesn't start that way. You know they start in these smaller. Sort of microaggressions and micro actions of violence against women and then they snowball and by the time a woman is has been trafficked in his being abused. She's been in the system for a really long time and I'm curious. What would you tell? People are some of the ways that begins. Because I don't think a lot of people understand understand how it starts how the actual exploitation start. Yeah like if there's an example of someone who story perhaps yeah that might explain it. Sometimes it starts with with real romantic seduction. And I'm your boyfriend and we're going to have a great life together and we're we're gonNA live in this apartment but we just need a little bit of money to do it and help us out and I'll ask you to do this once and you're doing this for us and I love you and I'm so sorry you have to do this but I need you to. You know my guys GonNa pick you up and you need to go with him and do what he says. And we'll get money for it and you'll never have to do it again. And then other other ways it starts is that they do prey on someone who's incredibly vulnerable and who's in absolute survival mode and needs money to survive and this is the only way to get it and the the common denominator in all of the cases of trafficking is vulnerability and one thing that I think really gets ignored in. This conversation is that you can be exploited at had any age. It can happen. An eighteenth birthday doesn't change you from a victim to someone who's in it consensually right. What happens on eighteenth birthday that all of a sudden makes you not vulnerable to exploitation which leads me to what I'm working on now? Should we go there. So there's a huge campaign in New York it's also happening in Washington. DC and it's coming up nationally to decriminalize is the sex trade and the language on this issue is really misleading and important to note because a lot of people are asked and and this is coming up in the presidential campaign. A lot with candidates. Are you do you support decriminalization of the sex trade now. Your knee jerk. Reaction is yes. Women should never are women but actually it's there are boys in the sex trade and LGBTQ women but survivors and victims should never be arrested for what they're doing. So your reaction reaction to say decriminalize the sex trade but what's really. Misleading is what that actually means to decriminalize the sex trade and that includes and what these bills include are legalizing or decriminalizing. Sex Buying and pimping the bill in New York that was introduced strips. Any penalties away from brothel keeping from sex tourism and from pimping someone who's over eighteen years old. That makes my stomach drop. Yeah and it's being pushed as progressive live and feminist and empowering and there's a huge misinformation campaign about what it what it means. Well well and I think a huge just a huge error in portrayal and perception because yes there are some people out there. Advocating there are some adults. There's woman who actually got speak with a couple of months ago. WHO has a sex worker and who is like this is my job and I choose this and you know she likes her life right but she's a very rare person in an industry? I mean we were looking at stats and we were saying earlier. That it's so upsetting how hard it is to find stats. What's yeah how under reported these issues are but but one of the statistics that we found is ninety? Two point two percent of women in the sex trade report being subjected to physical violence including being raped shot strangled burned beaten stabbed or punched so those are not women who should be punished pushed nor should the small percentage of women who are involved in this threat trade. Who are there by choice and who like their life be punished but people who who do that to ninety two point two percent of women right men who by women and children men who sell women and children as though they are commodities should could not escape punishment? Right how do we as a constituency change that. How do we say? I don't criminalize workers victims but criminalize perpetrators and victimisers were what's are also so what everyone in our movement on. Both sides of the table agree on. Is that the women who are bought and sold sex. Trade should never be criminalized so right now in all fifty states the the legal the framework is criminalization. People in prostitution are arrested. The sex buyers are arrested. So we're moving to change that and practice. Many of the states have already enacted that in Seattle Washington. Women aren't the I keep saying women but women beat. Taxpayers aren't arrested for prostitution in New York and my PD has really stopped. Stopped arresting the people on prostitution so where we differ is on the issue of sex buyers. And you just read and on exploiters but I'll get there. What you you you just read that statistic about the violence that happens in the sex trade and again many people probably think that this happens at the hands of exploiters that is at the hands of the sex buyers the the sex buyers inflict violence the sex buyers I was at a hearing yesterday in? DC and Because there's a bill to to decriminalize the sex trade. There and one advocate spoke about a legal sex shop in Amsterdam where it's legal because houses legal there there's regulations and one of the regulation. was that pillows. Need to be in the brothel rooms and the sex shop owner said. Why would you put pillows in there? That's a murder at our weapon which is really important to remember that the buyers they're not clients they're not just harmlessly purchasing sex. They're buying access to a woman's body and once they have that access they report in. They feel that they have the right to do whatever they want once. They've paid and they they fuel this industry so if you strip away any penalties for sex buying if you normalize it the it works like any other you you know market where the demand will increase and the violence. The violence will increase and the supply will have to increase to meet that demand. That's where trafficking happens. There aren't enough people. In the sex trade consensually to meet that legalized demand so then. who fills it again? Our most marginalized is D- members of society are trafficked into fill it women and women of color and Algebra t q and women exactly and furthermore more decriminalization and legalising brothels that leads to more brothels more brothels leads to more demand. You again you have to fill that supply. Why so it's just yeah an it is curious to me why we have this idea that there are respectful? That clients are respectful of these women. Right you know another point. I heard yesterday at the hearing from so many survivors buyers don't care and they don't know they don't know if you're in this consensually they don't know if your traffic what are they they check. ID's is there. You have an idea that says I want to be doing this. And so many survivors talked about how when asked and this goes back to your your question about the numbers and reporting when people who are under the control of a pimp or exploit are asked. Are you doing this consensually. They're not going to tell the truth. There ktar terrified for their lives they are have complete. PTSD they're likely addicted to drugs to cope with the trauma that they're dealing with and and so they're not going to tell you the truth and it might even be years before they understand that reality well. So many people don't get to process their trauma. Uh until they're out of a traumatic situation because the mayor brains are literally wired to shut us down so that we can survive. When you're in survival mode you're not exactly likely in your most psychologically open and self you know comprehensive state to discuss what's happening to you the exact so strange that we expect people to feel that way and and when you think about even if we get out of the sex trade when we talk about sexual violence think about how long it can take a girl and you know the stat? Is that nearly one in four girls in the. US will be sexually assaulted or raped by the time she's twenty two Think about how long it takes girl to tell her parents if she ever time I know and it's held against them. All you didn't report it. Why didn't you tell anyone that the fact that goes to issues of credibility makes it incredibly hard? Yeah and so I just when I when I put it under that Lens. I can't imagine how a woman or a person in this position while to your point under the control troll of someone else who is exploiting their person hood is going to be like. Hey guys guess what. This is exactly what's happening to me in. This person might kill me for telling you but obviously I'm going to tell you because you told me I should should. Yeah that's insane and really when you start to do your own research into this issue and look online and you'll see very vocal women who say I want to be doing this. I'm a sex worker. This is my choice and you wonder where the voices of the survivors. But you really have to consider. They're dealing with so much the trauma and sometimes it's hard enough to get out of bed and brush your teeth let alone go and talk on a soapbox about your traumatic. Your most horrible traumatic experiences dances. We work really hard not to retraumatize survivors and and put them out to speak about their experiences before they're ready so there's a few survivors who we work with. Who have done so much work to get to a place where they can talk about it and even for them? It's it's hard after a daylight yesterday. It's triggering ring and you're being spoken down to by white men council members who are trying to decide that your body should be for sale and and it's really hard to sit in that room and not actually see like this is white privilege at its worst this is. This isn't protecting women of color and girls of color. This is protecting protecting white men who want to buy them this law and its protecting Epstein and it's disgusting so awful. Yeah in looking at your work one of the things that you talk about being an alternative to this is the equality model. Yeah and I'm wondering if you can just explain to people what that is because I do think it's really helpful to not only educate listeners on signs an and facts and the problem but to give people the verb edge to then go out and Advocate and have these conversations in their own community. Maybe they'll hear someone say we should decriminalize you know the sex trade and it's actually not all of it. Yeah so we have a solution so yeah. There's an alternative to full decriminalization and to the status quo and that's called the equality model. It's also known as the Nordic model it was pioneered in Sweden Sweden and since adopted by seven other countries including Canada France Israel Ireland South Africa's considering it right now Spain's considering it and noar in the United States has officially passed it some already operate some states already operate in that under the equality model. But what at first and foremost does is decriminalize sex trade for people in prostitution so it another thing you can call it partial decriminalization because like I said the people who bought and sold in the sex trade should never be arrested for their being victims orbiting there by choice. However you proceed or however you've gotten into the sex trade? It should be decriminalized though where it differs from the full decriminalization model is that there's a very heavy focus on demand like I said the buyers are the economic engine of this industry if you deter buyers you can shrink the industry. This is a multibillion multibillion dollar industry read a one hundred fifty billion dollars a year yet global that we know about yes and if you think about that yeah a- and then when you do the math and you think about that maybe a hundred dollars which is on the high end percents act. How many rapes that is per year globally and versus the amount of prosecutions? That happen. Maybe a handful of those people get prosecuted buyers exploiters so so the the equality model really shifts the stigma away from the people who are in prostitution to the sex buyers. There's a huge public awareness campaign about the harms of buying sex. That it's not a victimless crime. That the we just have a zero tolerance policy for buying sex. And we've already started that conversation with the metoo movement and saying no men can't use their positions of power and privilege to course women below them. So then why would we legalize that. But I digress. So then the third prong of the equality model is to provide really robust services to the women who are leaving who choose to leave this extra aid though services include legal medical clinical economic empowerment housing. And we're already he doing that in New York we have working. We've been working with city council and we have something called the empower clinic and it's a place where women can seek all of these services and it's an alternative because what what happens now is women aren't there are still arrested for prostitution but they are rather than prosecuted executed sent through human trafficking intervention courts. And that's a way to connect them with services this takes law enforcement out of it completely so that if someone chooses chooses to exit the sex trade or to seek the services it really is their choice for mazing. Yeah so we fully support the equality model were writing are our Legislation Right now. We have incredible sponsors in the assembly and the Senate and who really really understand that decriminalizing sex trade would be an indelibly probably dangerous path for the most marginalized women in our society and that this is a way to create equality. But it's so cool thing is much for explaining it. It's also a special. I'm having this moment wanting you talk about it as as soon as you got into speaking about what's happening in New York and the empowerment clinic and the bill right like you are your whole face lit up and you have these just like beings about. I wish that people listening could see you because I think it's such a wonderful thing when you get to see someone just be lit up from within because they're doing what they're called to do or do or would it however you WanNa say it. And it's it's awesome that in in such a serious sort of arena where the subject matter is heavy and has real consequences you find like your ultimate joy in your advocacy and I can see it on your face and it's just call. I get excited. I'm just just like you're taking the world. Thank you okay listeners. I'm GonNa talk to you about our sponsors but I I I wanNA clarify for all the people who are new to the work in progress audience high so glad. You're here that we only work with sponsors that we personally believe in and these incredible sponsors of the people who make our podcast possible. And I'm so excited that we get to work with people to bring you this content and I also just want to be clear. I'm never we're going to talk to you about brands that I don't believe in or brands that I don't use myself every sponsor that we approved for this podcast has been personally tested by me and our team. 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Well there's there's a small distinction regimes that fully decriminalised strip all penalties away from the crimes. And it's sort of a free for all so new. Zealand has decriminalized the industry. And that's what they're proposing in New York in Germany and Amsterdam. It's legalized so brothels are legal. There are ordinances about them. There are rules you you know in those rules like I gave the pillow example. What's happened in Amsterdam and Germany? Is that the legalized. Sex Trades ended up being run by organized crime so the purported you know healthcare benefits that people in the sex trade. Get or the empower men or the Tommy that the people in the sex trade trade supposedly get actually isn't a reality M- over ninety percent of the people who fill legalized brothels in Germany are traffic from Eastern Europe and western Africa there and not legal. They're not seeking those benefits. Something that happened in Amsterdam is that they've started to roll back. Their red light districts enclosed them because the mayor of Amsterdam has said that you actually can't create illegal safe sex trade it's just not possible there are pimps who work as security guards who stand outside the legal brothels to keep the women supposedly say but what happens when people go around to check on conditions like a welfare check by someone from the state right. The women aren't awfully able to. They're not able to tell the truth they can't say no. The conditions are horrible. No I'm being exploited because their pimp is standing there as their security guard and we can talk doc all all you want about anecdotes but when you look at the data of those countries about the increase in violence increase in abuse increase organized crime. It speaks for itself so in a way our desire to think that we could create policies that would create a legal and safe sex. Trade is disproven by the. Data's what you're saying exactly exactly like we have this idea that if we legalize it. People can get tested and people will be protected and people won't be burned or beaten or strangled or shot by the people who repurchasing access to their bodies for sex but the data shows otherwise countries that have tried last year in Germany the owners of one of the biggest legal brothels like the brothel. You read about that you hear about in in any conversation about this was arrested for trip trafficking. Wow and it's an to legally go brawl crawl and what happens when brothels are legal and what what would happen in New York are. These mega brothels are erected so Germany. They're they're like seven story tall mega brothels roles with a different fetish on every floor. If you want sex of the pregnant woman if you WanNa take all your friends and have a gang bang and there are there are like yelp reviews of these non the opening weekend of this one. megabrothel Germany's seventeen hundred men lined up around the block to go into the brothel and wrote reviews afterwards like by the end of the day. Okay the women retired. They felt used up and complained. Wanted their money back one of their money back because these women had been quote used up. Yeah and didn't seem into it. Yeah Wow and then we come to find out that a lot of those were actually trafficked right and then we were. We were talking and said something to me that was so in destroying about New Zealand. Yeah so a New Zealand where it's decriminalized lost don't realize yeah law enforcement don't really really have any grounds to to go in and regulated at all because it's not regulated. It's decriminalize so yesterday again. At the hearing I heard someone tell a story about a child in New Zealand. Being raped and reporting law enforcement and law enforcement have a really hands off approach. You know it's not you know we can't do anything it's D- There's no regulations who says that that can't happen in so crime and violence and abuse against people in the sex trade. There goes really on prosecuted. That's something that really upsets me that we hear a lot and I don't understand how we don't have harder lines with children especially like when Winston Toya Brown's case sort of gained all of this public awareness and they were speaking about her and they were saying well a sixteen year old prostitute. And it's like a sixteen year old can't be a prostate now. Sixteen year old is a child who is a victim of sex trafficking being raped. She's child yeah and to your point. Nothing changes at eighteen victim is a victim but it's it's a strange. There's no child processors no such thing. His child prostitution term we should never ever ever use and and by the legal definition. Is that if you're under. Eighteen year per se victim of oft drafting. The example you gave about New Zealand is so crazy to me because the idea that law enforcement would say well. Sex Acts are all decriminalized here ear. And who's to say that that wasn't part when they're paid for right when when there's when it's a commercial sexual out the idea that someone paid for something and reaped a child old. It was something they felt like. They couldn't touch because of the derive and and then and that I mean that's not to say that they don't have in there I actually. I'm not quite sure what age but the New Zealand cuts it off but that it not technically illegal to purchase a child there but just law enforcement's ability to really regulated is right is compromised right and it's and it's their inability to act because they don't know where the line is dragged. That is dangerous in real time. I think people forget. It doesn't matter if there's legislation if the legislation can't be practically enacted in real time and that New Zealand story feels like a perfect example of. Ah What do you think needs to happen for the equality model to exist here. Because you know obviously you're doing incredible advocacy advocacy work and their attorneys all across the US trying to help this become law here but what can the rest of us do you to support your work and to to help clan for this. I think spread the word educated. There's a third alternative and that when you read an article in teen invoke the says sex work is work and question it and push back on teen vogue who wrote and incredibly distasteful horrible article glamorizing memorizing the sex trade. And you know take to social media and convince millennials that it's not empowering to let men by access to so your body and that when there's a price tag on one woman there's a price tag on all women and I think that's such an interesting thing because to your point there are people people who find their personal empowerment in all sorts of ways. There's all sorts of avenues. There's all sorts of choice but as you're saying that I am realizing you know I I mentioned to you in again. It's I'm I'm not liberty to tell someone else's story but I I sat down with someone who explained how her work in the sex trade empowered. Her changed her life. She's no longer in it but it was really interesting conversation precision and so in this moment. I'm going Oh right. It's so important to qualify in in the math. You know yeah there could be this story to tell. It is globally an anomaly and that shame her right at all but I think it's. It's a really important distinction to draw that there are quite literally you know they. They say that there are more slaves on earth today than there were during the slave trade trade and a huge percentage of those people who are enslaved are enslaved for sex work and the and the idea that are tens of millions potentially hundreds of millions of people boohoo being forced to do this who are being raped and who are being abused and who are being trafficked. It's like we. We have to remember that. We can't simply celebrate one person success. Herat's Kate everyone else's story in any in any industry in particular at at this issue. What what a offens happening is so looking people? Look at it on a really individual basis and You have to look at it as the greater good of society as a whole whole what do we want for our country and our future and for the girls were raising and the boys were raising and you linked it to the slave trade and we the very deliberately use the term sex trade to make that link because it would be going back in time to enslaving people to to legalize buying hang people and you said something earlier to that really struck a chord in me that these buyers of women and the men who are in the sex trade really look at those people as property they look at them as a thing they can do what they want with and they believe that. When money has exchanged hands they have carte blanche to do whatever they want? And it's odd that because of the completely not odd it's traumatizing actually because of the completely immediate media and transactional nature of the experience that these buyers have with sex workers with people in the sex trade is that they're not humanized all right but they're very humid but they're being treated like a twisted doll of some sort. I know it's like I can do whatever I want with you. I can take as far as I want with you when I leave. I never have to think about you again. Any any new fuels all of that pornography so dangerous yeah in kids are being exposed to pornography Ages and it's so violent and it's fueling all of this. I'm curious because of the problem of porn and you know all good. Researchers talking about how porn is like the downfall of relationships of sexual intimacy It's causing increases in violence and trauma and all of these things. How do you see the Internet? Play into the sex trade because I think about pornography and I think about I remember the story about back page being shut down in all. How does all of this work? It just increases access a number of years ago. If you wanted to buy sexual access to a person you'd have to go down onto it What we call a track my CD part of town and do it in person and so that was a barrier to some people but with the proliferation of the Internet sex off gay increased one hundred eighty percent since backpage from backpage started until it was shut down last year and so there were studies? What he's done that? For example in Seattle there was a study that the highest time of day that men purchase sex was at two PM. I get back from lunch break. Go to their desk doc. Sit Down and go online and do that. So just the increased access to purchasing sex again led to an increase it a huge increase in demand and that that demand Gets as men get bored of of just purchasing someone their age for sex Then they want someone one younger and younger and younger and most most buyers are employed. Most are partnered is really anyone and when the person who's sitting next to you in a cubicle can go online and by a woman for sex how can he then go sit next to you in a conference room and treat you as equal Marciel is an equal we really need to shift the whole conversation to sex buyers and what happens if a if a man gets back from lunch and sits down at his desk at two PM and I'm buys sexual actual access to another human being when it. When does that happen? You order a girl for later. Yeah you make your after work plans. Oh my God yeah and I think that's study if I remember correctly was primarily a man in the tech businesses. Wow yeah and for people listening may not oh can you. Can you run us through. What back page was and how that work? Yeah so back pages. Like a craigslist online online platform that had huge adult services section. Before they shut down they were making over one hundred fifty million dollars a year off their adult services section and there was a really outdated law called the Communications Decency Act that held websites gave them immunity from any accountability if third party posted on their site so because back page said they weren't offering the ads they were immune to any prosecution. ACUTION under this statute we spent a few years lobbying hard to close that loophole and it passed and it's an incredible piece of legislation relation. That very narrowly amends the Communications Decency Act so that websites who knowingly facilitate human trafficking can be held accountable. So this doesn't you know affect asked if people who call themselves ex-workers WanNa go online and say like don't go on a date with this guy. He's dangerous it doesn't affect that. That's not knowingly facilitating human trafficking. However when you Google that legislation which is called Pasta? There's Oh you get a huge amount of negative information about it. You hear that it drove prostitution back onto the streets to and made it more dangerous but what really happened is that it shut down an entire marketplace where men could see anonymously online and by people for sex most often children. There is no way. There's no way to screen. How old someone is I'm back paid you just put eighteen and they're eighteen and so Since backpage closed there's been within the first seventy two hours. There is a eighty percent reduction in trafficking. Set something that people need to be including in these articles and but it dawned on me when you said that the Internet took the barrier away. People you have to go somewhere to actually physically chow person. You can't watch someone via an Internet Internet exchange actually but bat pushing sex the sex trade back onto the streets means people can be surveilled they can be law enforcement can actually crack down on Nisa hopefully rescue these sex workers and criminalize these these Johnson these pam and for people who are in the sex trade who say that the Internet Senate gave them like a layer of safety to your exact point. How you can't see who's on the other end of the computer you don't know until that person shows up opens? Your door comes inside if they're going to be the next person that beats you or suffocated with a pillow or sodomise you or any number of horrific dangerous acts. You don't know that from the Internet. How does the Internet added layer of safety yet? That's an argument that you often hear about why assistant assistant made made him so dangerous. But you know tech who is really against it at first free speech and all that but we. We have half to do the work we have to do. Something to protect vulnerable people. And we legislate for the many not the few you know to your the point of of the individual stories. Honor them hear them. Respect them. But we legislate for the money for those for the last girl as one of our advocates says those who are most marginalized most need it as we talk about the reporting on it because you talk about the fact that there's not a lot of statistics six and also that the stories around the reality of these policies can get very complicated and and whatnot. How do we get better numbers and reporting how do you do? You think we get to that. Do you think we need that. I don't know if we need it. I think it helps people to mobilize to hear numbers and and people often WanNa know like really what percentage of this extra to people in the sex trade or consensual knockin central and and and we are sort of obsessive numbers. It doesn't bother me that I don't I don't know exactly because I understand why it's so hard to like so much sexual violence. It's it's under reported. You know there are barriers to reporting thing and then it's so hard to quantify if you are trafficked at thirteen out of your foster home or out of a shelter and and you is the only life you know and you don't go to high school and you and so you don't have an education and you don't have any earning potential. Now you're twenty two and you've already been through Helen back and the only life you know is prostitution and you are without a pin present me near consensually in the sex trade did you. Are you there by choice. So how can you even qualify that as a really good point and all of it makes me just want to ask you. I mean you are choosing to serve people in a very very hard space. This is emotionally taxing. Work that you're doing and I imagine they're days that are really gut wrenching. And how how do you how do you do it. How do you do your job and also make space for yourself and for joy and you you know for your kids? And what's the tactic. Or what are the tactics that you have to sort of an employer to do that. I never don't want to go to work. I love my job. I love the people I work with on both sides. I Love my colleagues who are also little social justice warriors and advocates and they inspire me and I wish talked to all of them. Because they're a thousand times better on this subject than I am and and I love the clients that we work with and the survivors and they're inspiring firing. If I mean how can I ever complain about anything in my life. If if they're getting out of bed at five. AM and getting on a bus to DC to go testify justify against a bill that they just know will affect their brothers and sisters across the country. They're so inspiring. And then I come home to the two amazing kids who make me happier than anything. So how old are they. They're one and a half and three and a half. Oh so fun. One of my best friends the one and a half year old baby a really fun stage. She's delicious community brings a lot of relief and a lot of joy. Get any sort of arena. Carina tougher intense grueling. So I imagine your community is one of the answers to this next question. I'm curious also. So what makes you feel hopeful. I think yeah. I think it's sort of the same answer. The people that I work with and we'll we'll we'll go around and we'll meet with. Legislators will meet with community members. And you know we'll just educate people and sometimes we'll get back and then sometimes we'll have a meeting. That just gives you so much. I hope some some politicians of visionary who you've just so implicitly trust is going to lead us in the right direction and that that gives me hope and seeing I mean in in reaction to everything. That's happened Sierra. Seeing the young people be active in a way that I've never seen and how they just take they use their voices and they take to the streets and their marches and their social media and using all their platforms in a way. But I don't think we've ever seen so that gives me hope they're pretty bad ass. Yeah I'm on all subjects. Yeah really great. It's really exciting. This one well but again I think to your point it's about you know who's getting to tell the story the And yet great to to say as a bunch of feminists to to someone who is in sort of a space that they say they like. I love this and this was my choice. This is how it works for me. Like more power to you but tens of millions of people don't have that luxury and we have to fight for them exactly exactly. It's wrong not to because it's because it's working just for one person. Yeah and to your point. The excellent version of this kind of legislation being the equality model. aww wouldn't criminalize that person. Who's living her best life anyway? But it would protect tens of millions or potentially hundreds of millions of people who who are not and. That's got to be the point. Yeah well my last question for you. is one that I like to ask everybody. The title of the PODCAST is called work in progress. And I'm curious what in your life comes to mind is a work in progress for you right now. I think all of it. Children certainly are Marriages and my work is my think right. Now I'm I'm so have my head in this drafting of the equality model. What do we want to go into it? And how do we defeat the other bills. And how do we educate people and then I took a step back yesterday and said to one of my colleagues like this could be five to ten year battle. This isn't this this isn't i. Need a reminder. This isn't happening this year. So that's definitely a work in progress you know. I have the amazing privilege to raise two to boys and to figure out how I WANNA teach them respect and and how to be interested and smart. And I'm curious children Tala work-in-progress. Yeah thank you all that super cool. Yeah except my apartment. It feels done. No your apartment is done but you got you got an inside. l'avenir yeah yeah fun fact. lexi sister happens to be one of the great well. Half of one of the great undesired duos in America potentially the world. I don't know but yeah I like I follow her on instagram. And the first time she replied to me I was like. Oh my God I think you're so amazing. Oh okay anyway. I've seen everything you've ever done okay. By now I have to tell her she has to listen to the whole body just to get to. We'll be like and just a little plug Shandra. Yeah Yeah you can follow. You can follow the their duo Ashley Andro on Instagram and riposte a lot of their work on my little like design feed so anyway. I think I'm turning red. It's mine do still love that cool and and you can follow no buyer no pimp and y like New York to learn more about this issue awesome. Thank you for bringing attention to this like. I said just talking about it teaching. She people that there's a third alternative is really important. Because I think a lot of people instinctively know that criminalizing people in prostitution isn't what they want. Ah but I think once they learn that decrease also means pimps and buyers and brothels and sex tourism and the likes. There's a third way. Thank you yeah thank you because it really is important for people to have access to the expertise. There's so much information out there like you said you google things and you get you get reviews that may be completely inaccurate to the way that they're going to affect the public or public policy and so for you to open up your home in your time to really help people who are not in this arena. Get into your brain is a gift of thank you thank you. Hey guys we wanted to include a follow up to the conversation that I had with Alexi with a panel that she recently moderated the link between sex trafficking and prostitution and why full decriminalization in her opinion is not the answer to protect people do sex work. It's really powerful so I hope you'll continue listening. Movement again among some progressive liberals ought to decriminalize the sex trade this movement house. The ideology that sex work is work. That prostitution is a choice that it's empowering they they even go so far as to say that legalizing the sex trade would have no effect on human trafficking. Were it not for my work. As a prosecutor human trafficking African cases and my privilege to work among these incredibly brilliant brave warriors I might also subscribe griped that ideology but instead I know that it's not empowering that this kind of legislation would be regressive that sex buyers fuel the industry the increased the demand that there's a historical acceptance of violence against women of color. Who are bought and sold and that the sex rate is an inherently predatory industry? Three that preys on vulnerabilities people among both sides of the divide agree that no one prostitution should be criminalized but where we differ is in how to provide meaningful services to those people to help them exit prostitution and how to recommend policy to around around sex buyers and pimps so without further Ado I am thrilled and honored to introduce you to these leaders. Who can help us explore these Themes even further. So I WANNA start and ask you each to introduce yourselves who you are what you do and how you got there My Name Kazman Nevada. I'm the CO founder and executive director of rights for girls which is a human rights organization based in Washington. DC dedicated to ending gender based based violence against young women and girls in the United States. And how I come to this. Work is as an Iranian American woman who immigrated to this country and with my family and the eighties during the Iran Iraq war and so I've always had innate understanding of the struggle for women's ends rights and girls rights coming from the Middle East but it wasn't until my law school years I realized the extent to which do United States denigrates the rights of young women and girls awesome so I became very passionate about working to address those issues here in the United States which led to the founding rights for girls as an advocate. I became very very frustrated in navigating a number of different advocacy spaces where girls lives. Were really invisible whether it was in the criminal justice or juvenile justice realm in in the domestic violence sexual assault around or even in the anti-trafficking realm Girls in particularly marginalized girls of color were really invisible and so we started rights for girls To really center the voices and the needs of our most marginalized girls. And so. That's how I come to this work. I everyone my name is Melanie Thompson. I M A survivor of human trafficking. I was trafficked here in New York City when I was twelve years old and then later arrested and I got into this work because upon my arrests that was sent to juvenile detention up state and there was a famous New York Times editor. Who came to interview the the staff of that facility and the staff of that facility essentially introduced that editor to myself to do an interview and then I was introduced to the world of advocacy and I never stopped since then? I realized that this my voice was not only powerful and necessary but definitely one that could serve visit boys for the voiceless. As I like to say so I'm here I'm GonNa continue to fight the fate. Hello My name is Anne Matheson. I'm known lead program Graham specialist in the Justice and empowerment for teens initiative at Sanctuary for families. It's a clinical program providing therapy services to young adult survivors of the Commercial Marshall sex industry. I started in this work over a decade ago in Seattle. I met a number of survivors in Seattle. Oh I had already had a lot of concerns about this issue because I had seen friends of mine pulled into the industry and severely hurt by the industry so while I was living in Seattle I met advocates survivors. who were in the process of creating a new nonprofit organization for prostitution survivors? So I worked with them to found that nonprofit and work there for a number of years and then I traveled to Sweden to complete a fulbright. Fellowship I was researching global Prostitution Policy and specifically looking at the equality model in Sweden and comparing it to other models. My Amy's scrutiny. Lardo I'm Mexican Iran I remember the community and I'm a survivor of international domestic six. I'm Labor traffic nick actually Sir to locate these year and the reason is because I need to break the stigma while certain certain things the first is that all the people in addition are there by choice. That's not true. The second is that trafficking. It's only happening happening in kids and woman that's not true I'm a male on I was strathcona old and the third thing is that trafficking is happening here. You what is happening in our communities could evening everyone my name is Laura Ramirez. I'm the program coordinator for the Coalition Against Against Trafficking in women the First International Nonprofit Organization to Fight Commercial Sexual Exploitation. I'm also a core organizer organizers with a firm New York which is a transnational feminist organization that does grassroots advocacy towards a genuine transnational. effeminate liberation. The word transnational means that no matter where you are in the world you're advocacy cannot ignore or forget the experiences France's of our sisters back home. And that's exactly what I'm doing here in this work and in all of my work for the rest of my life which is understanding that we are not alone in this world and that everything we do especially here in the United States. The most privileged country in the world affects women and girls all over the world. I think so yes. Men The topic of sex trafficking and the sex rate is in the news almost daily with high profile cases like Robert Kraft and Jeffrey Epstein most people. We'll have really still not thought about the links between the sex trade which includes prostitution and sex trafficking. Can you start. Giving an overview about what sex trafficking is and then explain. Explain the link between the two sure so under the law of sex trafficking occurs anytime an adult is forced I or coerced into the sex trade or anytime a child under the age of eighteen is involved in the sex trade. Of course a lot of people talk about the issue prostitution and sex trafficking if they're two totally distinct issues but we know from our work that in fact these issues are inextricably linked and that's true for a number number of reasons. I it's important to realize that when people talk about sex trafficking what we're actually saying is people who are trafficked into prostitution another way of saying that is that although sex trafficking might be the means prostitution is the ultimate end that this is all operating in the same ecosystem and that certainly sex buyers who are soliciting individuals in the sex trade are not meaningfully able to discern whether an individual they're purchasing trafficked or not not the other way in which these two issues are linked is that we know from survivors and much of the global research that the vast majority of adults in the sex trade I I entered as children so under the law. They would be considered child sex trafficking victims. And so it's important to think about what happens when these kids turn eighteen right. Does this automatically medically become an empowered career choice for them. Even if they may be no longer have a trafficker so it's really important to understand how these two systems are actually very closely connected elected and we also have to understand how the policies that we enact to address one of these issues inevitably impact the other other and really quickly. Can you go over. There's been bills introduced in both DC and New York. What do those bills decriminalize sure? So there's been a lot of momentum around the need to decriminalize of quote unquote sex work and I think people hear this and and initially might have a very strong You know desire to to support these moves. Because I think we initially think as you said that it's really important to decriminalize criminalise individuals who are engaged in prostitution who happened to be some of the most vulnerable members of our community who often entered the sex industry as children. But what these bills do is actually go much farther than that. What they do is seek to legitimize the sex industry by repealing all of the laws around sex buying pimping and pandering as well as brothel keeping and what we know? Is that in doing so. They actually fuel more harm. More violence more exploitation and actually really directly lied to increase levels of sex trafficking. We all know that sex buying is illegal in most parts of the country except for a handful of counties unease in Nevada and despite that there are millions of men willing to break the law in order to buy socks so imagine what would happen if suddenly we were to repeal those laws more men would inevitably enter the market not just from that jurisdiction but from other jurisdictions where it remains illegal as sex tourists. And what that does is it drives up the demand and the reality of the sex trade is that you're never going to have as many truly willing and consenting participants as a never ending demand requires and and so that's where sex trafficking comes into play because traffickers will always seek to capitalize on that demand. And they do so by targeting our most vulnerable exactly so and can you talk about the impacts that full decriminalization or legalization have had in the countries that have implemented these models for sure so legalization Shen and full. Decriminalization are nearly identical in implementation and the consequences that they both cars in countries that fully decriminalize or legalize is prostitution more men by sex. More women and children are trafficked into the commercial sex industry primarily from poorer nations to meet meet that demand for paid sex their higher rates of violence against people in the trade organized crime controls the majority of both legal and Illegal Eagle markets and brothel owners conspire with the pimps and traffickers to fill their bottles with women and youth primarily women Minoo of color in Germany. I'm GonNa talk about a number of countries now and give examples specific examples from countries of how it's manifested so in in Germany. Where prostitution is legalized? The intersection of capitalism and legalization has produced what they call flat rate. Eight and megabrothel chains. I'm going to read a quote from German News Article That is reviewing one of those bravo chains quote when the Pussy Club of Flat Rate Bravo opened near Stuttgart. The management advertise the club as follows quote sex with all women as long as you want as often even as you want sex anal sex oral sex without a condom three ways group sex gang bangs and quote the price seventy euros during the day and one hundred in the evening. According to the police about seventeen hundred men took advantage of the offer on the opening weekend. Buses arrived from from faraway and local newspapers. Reported that up to seven hundred. Men stood in line outside the brothel at any one time afterwards. Customers wrote an Internet chat. uh-huh about this supposedly unsatisfactory service. They complained that the women were no longer as fit for use use after a few hours at closing time. Many of the women collapsed from exhaustion pain injuries and infections including painful rashes and Fungal infections that spread from their genitals down their legs. This club was closed one year later for sex trafficking. And that's in a country where it's leaked and that's Germany where it's legalized so now. I'm GonNa talk a little bit about full decriminalization again. These are really the same models. The abstract theory behind full decriminalization is that the sex trade a trade that is rife with violence and abuse will somehow self regulate to prevent exploitation in two thousand and three New Zealand decriminalize sex buying pimping and selling after full decrease the number of unregulated brothels increased and there were high a number of reports of incidents of violence against women in the industry including murder. Eighty percent of the women who are exploited in St base prostitution. Prostitution in New Zealand are Mallory Polynesian rather than reducing the number of children exploited in the sex Trade Zealand. Commissioner for Children Dr Cindy Curro stated that New Zealand has a clear problem of child exploitation which she said most likely worsened. Since decriminalization police reports indicate kate that girls as young as twelve are being sold on the streets to adult men and this is because there's a demand in New Zealand for children because the buyers want unprotected sex but they also don't want S. T. is so sex buyers don't differentiate. They don't ask someone if they're traffic they don't ask someone. Are you over the age of eighteen. In fact many sex buyers are actually specifically seeking out children because they really want someone who they can manipulate and control they it can act out a fantasy of dominance and degradation that they want and they find that vulnerability of the person that they're buying arousing so even yeah. No New Zealand has been identified as a destination country for trafficking. It's took the country. Twelve years to prosecute a single trafficker because after full decriminalization it became the case that the laws were so advantageous to traffickers. I'm GonNa talk just if if we we have the time. We'll talk about the Netherlands too because this is another country that people hold up as an example of success which is really a big meth so in Netherlands the sex industry is legalized and because the sex industry is so controlled by organized crime. Many Dutch cities had to close. Does their legal prostitution zones and Amsterdam closed half of their legal prostitution windows because the city council had determined that they were completely run by organized crime and investigative report published by the National Police Service and it documented that criminal gangs working as pimps bodyguards have been using extreme violence against women in the industry and specifically in the legal licensed supposedly safe protected portion of the industry and the report asked. How is this possible? Well how is it that sex trafficking is happening almost unimpeded in the legal sector of our industry and they identified five answers anything. These are really important. Because if of New York legalizes prostitution fully decriminalizes whatever we want to call it. These will be the same results so they found that law enforcement has a lot less power a to investigate and they have a lot less incentive to investigate prostitution when it's illegal industry the legal trade axes cover for the illicit listen market making it really hard to track the illegal market Bravo inspections are not successful in detecting exploitation part because the women are often monitored by pimps when the inspectors are interviewing them. They found that the bodyguards were actually working for the criminal gangs many of the bodyguards pimps themselves and they also found that there was a high high risk of collusion between the law enforcement and bodyguards. You GotTa remember that when you legalize fully decriminalised. As soon as that officer takes off his uniform he can be a buyer to and also they found that legalisation relied on the goodwill of the brothel owners and the sex buyers to prioritize reporting abuse abuse over their own profit margins and personal sexual satisfaction. So Melanie here here. In New York we have on the one hand prostituted. People are criminalised under the law on the other hand. There's this strong cultural and media push to celebrate. Prostitution is a job like any other and as empowering as survivor of sex trafficking and prostitution. Can you explain why you do not use the language of sex work doc. Absolutely So I love to say that sex is not work and work is not sex you cannot buy consent. And there's this huge misconception inception. Everybody agrees that those who are trafficked shouldn't be in that trafficking is bad. But there's always this argument when it comes to this idea of consensual sex work and a lot of people fail to realize is that prostitution is a system not an isolated act that has fueled on other oppressive systems. So what I think. Our community needs to understand around sex work. Doc is the fact that prostitution is fueled on misogyny capitalism and patriarchy. And if you don't have a clear understanding of those three oppressive systems and you're not going to fully understand how prostitution can never be considered consensual concise. I love it. Kristen Edouardo can you talk a little bit about how prostitution affects the Lgbtq community. Well now with this movement then we have been hearing that especially the community. It's about this. It's like Oh this is the progressive did we can do. Do Prosecution is the best thing that you can do on. It's interesting because the community has been always seen as a freaks as they once who are willing to do by choice all dairy things on sex and are willing to try no matter how we're how aw harm how. How much dined gear danger? You can do to somebody. He doesn't mother. You always will start the duty community as they are willing into because they enjoy it and they like it but on the other hand it's and within the same about prostitution that we don't think that people engage team persecution as we never think about all this personally tweet this person in housing this person needs they have all these need. I don't know if they are going to school if on the our immigrant Now we byars never stopped to think about this. So why how how this movement is now affecting the community. Well community has a lot of boone abilities winning a lot of housing. We are a lot of immigrants. We lack of Leo startles will have opportunities for job but there is a common denominator on other communities. People of Color is I suffer from the same things like people suffering from the same things immigrants or so I think the same thing. So he's not only liberty communities are being targeting by this new moving persecution. It's all our communities that are vulnerable and at the end is all the communities are that that are exposed unerring diner already and we need to think about that. We are more than wholesome girl more than stakes. Because it's the way that everybody seemed people in prostitution so at the end we are affecting human beings and I don't know if you really have you ever stop thinking about yourself and Oh yes. Why don't wake up today like yes? Let's go on up. Six random people land nasty the people that I don't know one just because I mean I feel even empowering I mean have you ever care well of of course not so we need to stop romanticizing prostitution. There is a lot of harm over eight. And this is not a solution for real food equalization. Is the solution. We need more choices. When it more opportunities I agree Laura and the US? We know that it's primarily summarily white men of privilege buying sexual access to the bodies of black and Brown women and girls of color and members of the Lgbtq community we cannot talk about the sex trade sex trafficking trafficking and sex buying without examining the legacies and ongoing impact of colonization and the slave trade. Can you speak about how combating prostitution is both a racial and gender. The justice issue yeah prostitution is a racial issue. It's a gender issue but I would also go as far as to say that that is a matter of genocide so everyone knows the freeze. If you don't know your history you're bound to repeat it right so I I am going to share a history of my people. Right my colonize people so Were my family is from from the Caribbean islands. The native people allworthy. No Indians and women were actually matriarchs. So woman fought alongside man. They worked politically weekly alongside men. They actually worshipped goddesses. They were. They were a matrilineal society and as soon as the colonizer stepped foot in Hispaniola the very first thing that they did was sell our women. Christopher Columbus used to sell women girls doc under the age of twelve years old there are cases that say that he sold Tena Girls who were around nine years old so fast. Forward Lord Thirty Years in the island and ninety percent of Taino Indians were completely annihilated. They were condemned to the slave trade and women in particular because of their acute vulnerability of being women were condemned to the slave trade. So when you hear people say prostitution is the world's oldest oppression you can tell them that story about how my people didn't know prostitution until the colonizer stepped on Orlands so when we talk about Liberation Feminism when we talk about decolonizing. Feminism we're talking talking about going back to times where women didn't have to even deal with being with existing as being a subordinate class. That's what we're we're talking about so when people push the narrative Oh you know this is liberation politics. This is not liberation politics. The story that I just told it is replicated. All over the world you can go to Africa. You can even go to places such as the Philippines which still has a booming sex industry. Unfortunately we based predicated on the same same context globally. This is not a profession and never has and I hope that after this panel you can understand understand that it never will be. And therefore we shouldn't pass legislations than enshrine our systematic historical oppression into law. All right. So you've heard a lot about what we're against and we talk about what legal framework we are four absolutely so we support I'm a model called the equality model. This was a model that was first pioneered in Sweden. Sweden was the first country to recognize. That prostitution is neither work nor a victimless crime. But rather a severe form of gender-based violence in one thousand nine hundred nine Sweden past the piece for Women Act Act which criminalized sex buying and pimping while they also decriminalized the individuals who are being bought and sold in the industry three so they recognize that individuals who are being exploited should not be criminalized for their own exploitation. The model is a combination of three equally important components minutes. The first is that it provides robust social services to survivors so that they can exit and heal from this trauma that they endured in this industry. The second is that it uses a community education campaign to teach men about the harms that sex buying causes to individuals and to the community. The third is that it changes the laws as I mentioned at the beginning to reflect that prostitution is a form of gender-based violence Iceland and Norway followed Sweden and adopting the same legislation and every year. I think this is a really interesting fact. Every year and these three countries are ranked among the top five of the World Economic Omic Forums Index for equality between women and men so each of these countries has made a quality model policies part of their gender equality. You like legislation overall. It's important to note. I think folks get concerned about this that the equality model is not driven by incarceration. That's something that the United States really focuses on sex spires are subject to fines on a sliding fee scale based on their income. The model what it really does does is it. Works to prevent this harm in the first place. So they strive to decrease demand by teaching men about the harms and also is committed to empowering marginalized communities and populations so that they don't get pulled into this destructive industry in the first place. So I really think it's important for us to recognize that. It's about supporting survivors to heal from the trauma that they endured. I also want to say really quickly that the equality model because I think this helps folks to understand what the equality model is. It really recognizes that prostitution should be treated in the same way that we treat other forms of gender based violence like domestic violence so the model only decriminalizes the individual who is being exploited. It doesn't decriminalize the sex buying pimping the trafficking and this model has been adopted in seven additional countries so there has to be a huge misinformation campaign about this model whereby detractors claim that it's a failure that it pushes prostitution underground makes it more dangerous for people in the sex trade. We don't have time to get into all the myths but can you address one or two of does maths for sure so the equality model has decreased the size of the commercial sex trade like I said by decreasing the number of sex buyers and pimps and and by preventing people from being pulled into the industry also. The model helps folks as I said who are in the sex trade to exit. And it's and it's really really important again. They help them to access the service that they need to heal. So what all of this means is that the equality model is a major threat to the big business interests. Is that profit from the sex trade. This is I always want to like contextualized. This this is a multibillion dollar global industry story so really big industry a lot of folks with a lot of vested interest in seeing this industry. Normalized decriminalized legalized and seeing it expand and across the globe. So also that means that there's significant power behind the scenes invested in discrediting the equality model because the equality model is our. You're single the single biggest threat to the sex industry right now. Before enacting the equality model Sweden actually had a full criminal and it was because of the failures ears that this model was showing the country that they enacted the the quality model in the first place and after it was passed they saw sex. The percentage percentage of men who are buying sex dropped from thirteen point six percent to seven point four percent and it's because the demand dropped that the size of the industry began to the shrink dramatically in our culture. We really hyper fixated on the choices made by people who are bought and sold in the industry and I always tell people that this is actually a form of victim blaming and it obscures it hides the individuals who are truly making empowered choices pimps the sex buyers the traffickers They are the individuals who decide how much they will pay if they will use a condom if they will rape the person that they've bought if they will make the person that they're selling US sponge to hide their menstrual flow. These are the people that are making the choices and extensive research from around the world shows that sex Byron Pimp violence. There's an embedded aspect of prostitution panic buttons in brothels pimps posing as bodyguards training and hostage negotiation skills. All of these. Things have been tried. And they don't make prostitution any safer because frankly prostitution is not safe. There's there's a study that was done in the United States and forty three percent of the buyers in that study stated bed. Where if if a man pays a woman for sex? That woman woman should do anything he asks a sense of ownership. That comes when you buy another person's body and in another study nearly half of the buyers admitted that they had paid for sexual acts with someone they knew to be under the control of pimple trafficker. They just didn't care. So advocates in the sex trade advocates of the sex trade folks in in the Netherlands New Zealand Denmark Germany. They all argued that they were decriminalizing or legalizing prostitution for the benefit of the women in the industry. But those who's who truly benefited from this multi billion dollar trade and who continue to benefit our the brothel owners the pimps the sex buyers and the governments who you are bringing in significant tax in tourism revenue survivors on the other hand are dealing with acute and chronic medical illnesses and injuries that result from being repeatedly bought for sex by strangers such as traumatic brain injuries. From having one's head slammed into car doors and windows genital and internal injuries. He's as well as common psychological impacts like PTSD. Because you never know is the sex by are going to be the one that murders or rapes me and also suicidal title. I depression dissociation. The human body and psyche are not able to sustain sex with five ten fifteen twenty twenty-five thirty strangers day multiple days a week multiple weeks year this causes severe physical and psychological harm and these impacts. Don't discriminate based on whether someone identifies as a sex worker a survivor or a victim of sex trafficking king so last week we were at a hearing in Washington. DC in front of the DC council members and someone and it was about a decriminalization association. Bill and someone who is against the bill got up and said to the council members. This legislation doesn't protect black and brown girls. It protects the white men who buy by them so Christina Duardo every dollar pimps and traffickers make comes from the sex buyers who feel the demand that leads the sex trafficking. Can you talk about the buyers. Fires were all well. It's something really interesting actually happening in this room. There are no men in a couple of months and the first thing that that we need to do. It's like break this cycle of that. We are deals always keeping this conversation. Only victims survivors females emails. Like the the ones are always suffering and they are the ones that are always in danger because people empower privileged which they don't care that's true and on the other hand. This is something that we are all and like even if we see people being processed understood we never stopped to think ally. Is this person been traffic. Is this person here by choice. So it's easier to always say No they are doing it because it's Because our decision they are aware of our or what they're doing and I don't care. Is it true and we are continuing to join this so we need to stop that and the other thing is that buyers arse it for they don't care on when I was traffic am nobody stopped to ask me ally all the you like it. Can I do with. Are you enjoying it and this is happening to a lot of people right so now we really need to break the stigma while on around browsed through shown and we cannot continue to protect buyers because mm buyers who are dividers Mansard by yours and this is through on for real unique to him by every single one mail in your life to join this conversation because if that not happen we are. This is going to continue happening. Because they don't care they ah. They don't have by Johnny now the they are not female that they don't have like all these things that were up for real a male. I'm always every single day. So worry about my female friends because and it's something that you worry every single day and I feel that you don't relate it with the prosecution and trafficking. We are all against like race man. We are all against rape. We're always fighting for respect my identity Richard. My Rides and six men raped denial. Your identity are components of prostitution and trafficking so so we need to stop shield in the by years and if they want full communication for real why this panelist fool of victims activists survivors while they are not buyers coming here on astounding the oh I had the right to buy the barrier of somebody body because I have money power on. I don't care tell me why the response to buy somebody why are we. Why are we Steel doing that can you. Can you for real imagine yours. Yours yourself put yourself like if you really need housing if you don't have food if if you are here with all legal startles if you cannot you cannot find a job like it's not a decision to move move to prostitution for real. It's never going to be a solution and the buyers argues bringing on these people and the problem is that we are feeding these vulnerabilities. We have this tendency to think that everybody in the world is like we are all good persons. We are worry one. Each John doesn't true. Believe me does not true. I was traffic by people of Color of my own community L. D. people of Color and trust me. We need to stop that we need to stop protecting buyers and we need to start talking openly about this so I hope that you join. After this is to a proposal for the equality model and that we are moving forward. We want to protect people. And if I'm talking here because I don't want that nobody going through through the same that I when I walk in and nobody deserved up and to that point another quote we heard at the hearing last week was by someone who said that they were there. Oh by choice. And we're supporting a bill to decriminalise sex trade and they looked right at the members members of city council and said come on your buyers. Don't criminalize us so if that doesn't doesn't say it so to that Laura. How do you respond to progressive policies that embrace quote unquote sex work? Movements Politicians Titians organizations that claim that decrease the way forward masking full decriminalization of the sex trade is perhaps the laziest betrayal of woman as a Kloss that I've ever seen I would i. I would encourage people to be more strategic and to be more liberation and focus liberation in their out of politics. Six you see the thing is when we speak with people who have been in the trade and who justify their existence in the trade right right so we're talking pro sex work advocates. They all share the same story. I think it was one of you. WHO said there's no difference it's between a sex worker or prostituted person and a traffic victim because they all experience the same material reality but when in speaking with people who are a according to them willingly engaged in the trade? They say why I do this because I need to pay my rent or I do this because I need to pay. Hey for school or I do this because I'm a trans individual and there's there's not equal equal protection in hiring you you know what those sound like to me that sounds like an education for all campaign a job protection campaign a regularly housing campaign. Those who's our campaigns that are actually progressed progressive and actually have a vision of liberation and actually have people's best interests at heart heard as opposed to the feminism that we here being being yelled at by people who want to defend. Spend this this idea that you know. Sex Work is somehow feminist and it's really unfortunate because is the sex trade has become the progressive litmus test in other words. If you like Google woke they're going to send you a giant list of things that you need to do and one of of them is except the sex trade into your feminist policy and we are here to tell you that that is absolutely not true if we know we're coming I'm from and we know where we want to go and that is a world without violence without Patriarchy without misogyny than we would know better than to cement meant women's subordinate position in society as a class that exists to be purchased for the purposes of male sexual satisfaction. Melanie to sum UM AL up what messages. But it send men and boys about gender equality and the Liberation if we decriminalize the act of purchasing women's body especially in the age of Metoo me too twenty Honestly essentially full decriminalization is saying to the world is that women can be bought. That girls can be bought that anybody that's marginalized is property honestly Interestingly enough there was a study done in Seattle on sex sex buyers and what the results showed was that the height of sex buying usually happened around two PM Usually during the workday right after after. Somebody's lunch and I can personally attest to what that looks like. Considering the amount of people that have purchased my body for their lunch hour special So really we fully decriminalize the sex trade in its entirety What we're really saying that you can continue to view? People as commodities in that consent can be purchased and we're also saying to individuals that a dollar or a one hundred dollars. Whatever have you means that you're no longer oppressed? And that's it's an issue. That's something that we need to combat as a community whether or not you're margie. If you're marginalized or privilege we all have a role to play in that. So right and if that guy goes out and buys sex accent lunchtime and comes back how is he gonNA treat you as an equal in office. I find it really really baffling in my opinion in the age of me to somebody goes public or somebody just comes out and says you know what I went out last night and I was raped and then we all stand in solidarity but I go to that same individual individuals and say I went out last night and I was raping somebody one hundred dollars on the desk now. All of a sudden I'm a prostitute. I had consent ahead choice. I was no longer a press. I'm not black and Brown. I'm still Oh not poor. All of these things change. I think we really need to wake up as a community and realize that the TRAUMAS are still the same similar to what you're saying anyone have a last thought they wanNA close on. What can we do? You can spread the word you can talk to people when you hear. Sex Work is work. Push back on them. Explain what you've learned today when you see it in the media when you see popular magazines whose audience are young girls talking about sex work being liberating push back on them. And then there's there's another the thing you can do at well we we have a little handout here because languages confusing so when you do talk about it. We've got your your support here. You can also also donate what were what the money would go to as a survivor leadership fund because we work with these incredible survivors. Who Do this out of the goodness of their hearts and because because they don't want anyone else to experience what they've been through but it's not their jobs it's their extracurricular so let's help fund them and make it you know? Don't make their work worthwhile. So that's that seemed like a good thing to get worse but as someone. Yeah Yeah Amy had her show protested and there's still here so thank you. Thank you for using your voice are we what are what should we do questions. Yeah I want to say is First of all for me one of the things that really opened opened. My eyes is Sex Industry is such a huge huge in the street and the reason why it is such a huge industry industry is because the inventory is free. They don't pay for the inventory if you set If you are a drug denotes let's you have to buy the drugs and Salad. You don't buy the inventory and it's replenishable so if you think about that way day is just so horrible. I think it's a very way too the thinking and so i. I'm glad that we can raise the money honey. So if you want you go downstairs. If you shop I will give you twenty percent will go to your organization and I personally will match. Didn't match the and sorry my English very well but I want to try to wait so I would like to know. How can we as playing to the and the community or the people whatever a what is sex trafficking because I was in sex trafficking? Wayne I was talking but I didn't realize that until my forty. Ah Dear so how can we playing in the community the sex trafficking besieged. I mean. I think it's really critical to know. It's much more pervasive than anyone thinks. I mean and again I'm based in Washington. DC and. I can just give you an idea that one of the few organizations serving traffic youth is currently serving seventy kids with another twenty three on the wait list and this is with all the existing laws against trafficking against exploitation of minors ars against child rape and statutory rape. All these laws on the books and we're still consistently at capacity so again. You know what would happen if we were to suddenly repeal. He'll all these laws. Obviously would it would go up and so I think you also raise an important point that most of the survivors that I've ever worked with didn't self identify Eh as traffic. You know some of those realizations come later in life when you know They're exposed to some other type of services or you know maybe it's through a domestic violence scenario or some other type of scenario where they realized that exploitation. That's not uncommon. But I think it's really important to know that it seems like A really crazy issue. But it's much more pervasive than I think. Any of US really realized well. I really wanted to just tell everybody that you are quite an impressive group and Brave really take courage to do the work you're doing and to have speak so freely about your own experiences. Alexi convinced wanted entity here. I got you got me. My question is I'm a little confused. If we do not not decriminalize we stay exactly as we are. I think so. That's what I need. Help understand what we're advocating for is the equality model in that is also known as the Nordic model Swedish model or partial decriminalization. So I think it is the partial. Become right so I think what you're getting confused like full versus is partial. So what we're advocating for is the the decriminalization of the person Gatien prostitution I e myself I e Christiane. I any of the survivors drivers that are engaged in prostitution but it still keeps the penalties for the perpetrator. That's whether you self identify bacteria quality. Okay whether your traffic or your I self identify as a sex worker I knew WANNA be there it decriminalize it decriminalizes the sex trade for the people who are bought and sold a prioritization. So for the women in and also the men who are are become victims. Talk to me about how how we can what we can do that will give them alternative lifestyles. If they think that this is is something that they have to do to put food on the table take care of their kids pick them up from school helped me understand because we are not unfortunately fortunately in some ways or very fortunately and others. We're not Scandinavian We are a very whereby Jamaat's but but it's different. It's just different in this crazy. Wild Yeah so world we live in so thank you. We aren't Scandinavian. But we can still match those ideals and we actually we were a lot of us. Were advocating with the New York City Council and the New York City Council missile decided to allocate funding for us to create a comprehensive social service center. which will co locate medical services? Legal all services therapeutic clinical services. Everything that you might need in one location. We're working on you know. Bring renovating meeting new location right now. Now this is a these centers actually were pioneered by Sweden. This was one of the key components that they said you need to implement if if you're going to implement the equality model and so we're working on bringing that for the first time to the United States right now it'll be opening a month and it's called the empower center. Good for you will well and just to quickly add to that. I think that's one of the other really critical components of the equality model and the partial decriminalization approach because it recognizes and debunks bunks the notion of prostitution as a legitimate job. Part of what you'll see with these legislative proposals that seek to just fully decriminalize sex trade. Is that there are no services right because why would you provide services to help people out of a legitimate profession so I think this is why you know. All of us really advocate for equality model. which is the decriminalization of those engaged in prostitution coupled with vital services resources exit strategies and as as well as ceiling and expunging their criminal records so that they can actually exit the industry access housing jobs and other opportunities but if you legitimize prostitution Russian as work there's no incentive to help people out of it and it also sets a really dangerous precedent down the line in terms of are we then ready to deny hi poor women unemployment benefits for turning down a job opening at a brothel so I think we have to be really genuine about? Is this job like any any other and feel confident debunking that. How close are we to high? Congratulations is to everybody from the keys. Good of journalism. I'm from Arlon where we have the quality model in place and tanks. Thanks to the great work of an activist to. I'm sure you've heard of Rachel. Marin I was just wondering 'cause I was in Amsterdam recently recently myself actually and I was shocked in there before but I was shocked to see that there are actually prostitution museums there now so you can actually go. Yeah Yeah it's unbelievable and you have like former prostitutes who are retired. Who Take you around and explain and the whole thing is so sanitized so so normalized and I was just wondering how do you go about Countering that myth of normalization can I I. I think the very very first thing I think the very first thing you can do is not used the term sex work right so that I I think we we hear every day and all of us sort of cringe when we hear it because that term alone exists for the purposes of of sanitizing the industry because when we start calling it what it is which is monetize penetration right when we start calling it what it is which which is paid rape rape that you can pay for with a credit card then people start to like you know they take a step back and a brief history on that term itself it was created by people who had interest in promoting prostitution because they your gate. They were gaining economically from prostitution. In other words literal sex traffickers created the word sex work. So that right. There is the first thing that you can do because again once we take that term away we can start talking about it for what it is and the other dangerous part about that term term is because when we start talking about labor laws and we start talking about unionizing those are all workers rights so are we going to entertain the notion of unionizing brothels absolutely not right so that term invites a host of things. It's a giant. It can of worms that again. We hear every single day but have to like peacefully new nuclear you know. What's the word neutralize? So that we we can continue and have an honest conversation so that right there is one place to start all right. I think we can take one more question and then everyone will stick around and you can have. Yeah there's it's an election year so if you have a politician your mix. Ah and local politics really matters in this issue for sponsors. Are Worth of the decriminalization bill. It's Dick Godfried. Who's the assembly man? Right here. In Chelsea it's Julia Salazar who is a young Democratic Nick Socialists Progressive Female and Jessica Rama. They're both She's Queens. She's the senator in Queens who support for decriminalization. You guys may have followed can can i. I say the godfried quote. We were at a meeting with the sponsors of this bill and Dick Godfried who who who authored it Said now say you have a white Hollywood exac and he's got a black housekeeper and he asks her for sexual services. What's the the difference between that and cleaning his toilet when she doesn't want to do either I could tell them the differences so that was dick take godfried and then Julia No? I'm sorry Jessica Romo's my favorite quote of my entire life is it's GonNa be a bit vulgar so pardon my French but she said buying is legal and fucking his legal so buying fucking should be legal that was her logic to justify a legislation. Our are elected folks here in New York so think about that when you go to the polls. Yeah what his worst in the end. Yeah so so there was a you might have followed the Queen's District Attorney's race that that happened over the summer but there is a candidate who ran on a pro sex work platform completely without really understanding the ramifications of what that would do to to Queens New York mark so on the sponsors of our bill are tremaine right in the assembly and Liz Krueger in the Senate Two incredibly powerful women who are authoring our quality model legislation will help us get it hopefully get through. Oh great so so our bill were authoring will hope. I hope to introduce it in January. When the session starts back up so Look out for it and again spread the word it and educate if you happen to have personal connections to any members of the New York state legislature have these conversations. Yeah so our bill actually moved quite farther. We just had a public hearing which is the first step in the bill being like legitimized and taken can seriously last week There were one hundred seventy witnesses. It went fourteen hours. There was actually more people in support of the legislation than aganst danced but we had a formidable force and many survivors of the sex trade came from all over the country. Many of whom had been exploited in Washington. DC and you you know for folks that for many years have been thinking. This was a fringe movement. This you know these bills had no chance of really moving forward. It's not just New York and DC. They're being introduced in a number number of different states again based on on the vagueness of the term sex work. People are appealing to people's inherent understanding that the status quo isn't working king. We shouldn't be punishing women in prostitution. They are vulnerable but what they actually do is go a lot further and threatened to actually fuel more harm one or the other. I think talking points you'll hear and we hear a lot in DC as well. We're keeping all the laws on trafficking of course whore trafficking. Everyone pours trafficking. We're just repealing doing the pimping and pandering statutes. Well the prosecutors law enforcement of the room will tell you that's actually how the vast majority of trafficking cases are prosecuted. It's very difficult to bring an actual trafficking case and so most of these cases are pled down and so you would be removing all these laws off the books and we give the example of it's basically Siklie repealing. The laws against second degree murder manslaughter involuntary manslaughter. And saying but don't worry we still have first degree murder. These are lesser penalties for trafficking. It's really important that we retain them on the books. It's the same with the New York law. They say they're maintaining all aspects of the human trafficking laws. But they're appealing a statue promoting prostitution petition. which is pimping? And so if you don't have that prosecutors have no leverage for any plea agreements it forces them to put traumatized survivors favors and victims on the stand to testify to their force radical version which prosecutors can always do so they are cutting human trafficking laws. Say there's a petition about the DC. Bill that we can share we can share with your social media team and they can get it out. Another thing you can do is if if you're part of the media tell the story because the media tells a very one sided story of the white girl who went to Yale Grad school cool and stripped to get through it and founded empowering and that's what we hear and we don't hear this and people need to know the truth so I there are media connections in the room and social media to twitter. I mean all those assembly members there on twitter. Dick Godfried on twitter on. I was one week ago on the DC hearing on The truth that I was sitting there for six hour the beginning I was really math. I was it was complex. It was a lot of feelings on the trees is that I don't want that to happen here because what I was hearing over there it was like most of the testimony where about survival six no choices November on winning to Stanford so I am by you every single one of you if you hear somebody talking about Putin station like open that conversation. Don't be afraid support. Also we need the space to do Martin like this if you if you cannot Alexi so we are more than open to Sergei everyone on every single New Yorker here. Because we don't I personally I don't want to see what happened in the C one week. Kogo being here like protecting buyers San perpetrating on this harm on these nonsense of that. It's better to buy bless your onto keel or harm a human being so. Please join this movement onto Bar Austin every single way that you can come with all those like we are really open to educate every single one about this issue. Please living let me just say because I know people I see. We're trying to get out of here But I think it's also very important to note that you might also come across people who claim that their consensual sex worker XYZ but but also recognize that a lot of them are still in trauma And I can attest personally that When you're in trauma especially in prostitution a lot of time you have to find a way to justify your trauma in order to get through it and I remember a time when I was sixteen and I was in the life that I told myself that this was empowerment and liberation so that I can get through another expire so that I can continue to another hotel room and make sure that I can keep my sanity so you might come across? Somebody who's chanting chanting chanting consensuality but still hasn't process process their own trauma. So don't just take the narrative at face value. I love to say that. It's the same story different narrative when it comes to both sides of the divide so just recognize going back to those ideas of systemic oppression that we're all suffering the same traumas and abuses. One may have a pimp one may not but the oppressions are still the same and a lot of people haven't fully fully grasped what their trauma looks like where it comes from so you might come across a mighty that site pro sex work pro sex work but if you actually talk to them one on one and ask them about their day day to day you'll find out that many of those people that are chanting projects work have got into prostitution when they were under eighteen. A lot of time because they were suffering of suffering from the effects of systemic oppression. So just keep that in mind when you come across somebody. WHO's holding a red umbrella and saying that this is work? This show is executive produced by me. Sophia Bush and Sims Arna. Our supervising producer is alison. Bresnik our associate it producer is Caitlin Lee. Our editor is Josh. Windisch and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. The show is brought to you by cloud ten and Brian Anatomy powered by some podcast.

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Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

5:03:00 hr | 1 year ago

Heartland Newsfeed Radio Network

"Let's say you just bought a house. Bad news is your one step closer to becoming your parents. You'll proudly mold along and see if anybody noticed you mow the lawn. Tell people to stay off the lawn. Compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again. Good news is, it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive, and save on your car insurance, which of course, we'll go right into the lawn. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers discounted elible in all stages situations right now, you can get both sprints, unlimited plan, and the all new Samsung. Galaxy S ten included for just thirty five dollars per month per line for five lines. All you need is approved credit and in eighteen month lease no trade in required. Visit sprint stores sprint dot com or call eight hundred sprint one fifty thousand one hundred twenty two fifty my credit applied within two bills against overly remain unbalanced doing limited basic, every six thirty twenty eight thirty two dollars per month per line for five lines. With auto pay data deprioritization, during additions be maximum zero restrictions apply. Supporters of decriminalization see their efforts as part of a larger decades long liberalization of American mores. Let me interrupt you. Again reason dot com front page story. Kamala Harris is a cop who wants to be president. So how interesting to actually have a cop say, can you read that quote, again, because surprisingly good when you're talking about well, and it also might be one of these things like now that she's running for president. Let's just like George Bush, right? Let me say the biggest lie. I can tell that will get me elected because the most giant liar now in order to be president. I have to say the exact opposite of what I believe because that's what's going to get you elected to do. Bush, it's like I'm gonna promote freedom. No new taxes. Like what else can we say like nation building? Remember, you can keep your health care plan. You can take that to the Bank, right? Like what, what's the biggest lie that you can tell, and that's what they're going to run onto to win for president it again? Those good while you're talking about consenting adults. I think that, yes, we should really consider that we can't criminalize consensual behavior as long as no one is being harmed, so be prepared if she gets an office for her to criminalize all of the consensual behavior and consensual behavior, that you can think of that might have a hint of criminal nece to it, she'll make it illegal. I'm pretty sure everything you say is suspect and back if you're a politician, so she says expect the opposite yet. So. They say they also frame the issue as an act of harm reduction for prostitutes as a tacit admission that modern law enforcement and age old moral indignation has done little to stem the practice no doubt. We've learned that this lesson many times with the prohibition of alcohol or criminalization of abortion, or even the criminalization of marijuana. This another quote from this is a quote from find out, stay sounds like another golden quote here. Some people are saying nice things here. Eight fifty five four fifty free. That's the toll free number. You can bring up what you want here on free talk live. Fellow patriots. My name is Todd savage, founder of black rifle real estate dot com like you I was a prisoner of the left sanctuary state until one day chose to leave my family to freedom today, we live on a sustainable twenty acre homestead where we shoot hunt garden and home sport, children, without the tyranny of the nanny state looking over us. If you're ready to flee the city to the freedom of Idaho or Montana are black rifle real estate team. Is here's the hell go to black rifle real estate dot com. That's black rifle real estate dot com. Most of you know, that heart disease is the number one silent killer in the US. What if I told you for just fifty four ninety five a month, you could fight against heart disease, naturally at heart and body extract? We've been helping thousands of people get back to a healthier heart. Don't just take my word for it. Check out all of the success stories at HP extract dot com or to order. Call eight six six two nine five fifty three o five. That's eight six six. Two nine five fifty three o five HP extract dot com. Don't risk it when you can take charge of it. This is novelist. Tom Robbins when my mother was diagnosed with coma, her conservative Virginia physician told her, there was only one treatment that might ease her pain and save her eyesight that treatment was medical marijuana, which he could not prescribe I offered together, some and teach her how to use it effectively. But my father objected because marijuana was against the law. So my mother, who loved to read, and walk in nature was condemned to grow cruelly unnecessarily blind tragedies like this happen all the time, but they don't have to keep happening. To learn more about medical marijuana call the marijuana policy project at one eight seven seven join MPP or visit them on the web at MPP dot org. So you've signed the Shire society declaration and are planning, your move to New Hampshire to be around more liberty oriented, people next sign up for the Shire, society forum at forum dot Shire, society dot com. There are a bunch of people there who are already in the Shire, and they want to meet you. If you're already in the Shire physically you should also come by the forums. Remember not everyone uses Facebook, new people are signing up for the Shire society forum every month, so drop in and say Hello at forum dot Shire, society dot com. So you've heard all three hours of the latest episode of free talk live and you're still hungry for liberty oriented, audio content. Did you know that we have another twenty four seven audio stream at L Aren dot FM? The liberty radio network airs, the latest episodes of some of the best liberty oriented podcasts on the internet around the clock. In addition to recorded content, you'll also hear live shows like free talk live originating from our Keene New Hampshire studio. So listen anytime at L, RN dot FM. That's L. R N dot FM. Don't you hate that feeling in the pit of your stomach when the police pull you over most people have no idea how to handle it properly, and they promptly get fed into the municipal fee generating meat grinder? Or maybe you recall that feeling you get when you go to the mailbox and see one or more letters from the IRS, you get a sense of impending doom, don't you? So let me ask you, if you could learn how to use the law to beat the IRS traffic tickets, almost any courtroom scenario. Zero collectors credit card debt, and even mortgage debt because of fraud perpetrated against you with that be worth knowing about, don't laugh investigate checkout, the life changing benefits of the White House law club at their website, lighthouse law dot club. That's lighthouse law dot club. And while you're at it. Visit the White House law club. Youtube channel you might be in for a pleasant surprise. What's up next, visit the liberty radio network program guide to find out at shows dot L. R N dot FM that shows dot. L. R N dot FM. This is retort live. You're invited here. Join us the toll free numbers. Eight fifty five four fifty free like freedom. Eight five five four five zero three seven three three Compal Titians change their spots. Can they have belief systems that they have, you know, put into place over many years, and then all of a sudden do a reversal and actually be plausible at when you say anything about politicians changing their spots, the first kind of spots, I think of our livers up because they're heavy drinkers or just old? I gotcha. Does that come from heavy drinking? It just an old thing. I think you can contribute to it. If you're a drinker. So Ian Johnson and silver, Dave here in the studio tonight, by the way, if you want to help support, what we do on free talk live, join the program, like Jean the Christian anarchist. He's one of our longest running amplifiers he's a silver amplifier, which means he gives five dollars a month to the program stands for advertise market and promote and is a way for you to get behind what we do here and help us get on more radio stations to bring more people to the ideas of freedom on the radio waves. We got over two hundred stations that carry our show at various times throughout the week right now. We could have three hundred it's just a matter of time. It's just a matter of effort. It's a matter of marketing the show, and that's what the program allows us to do more effectively, and you'll get some cool perks also for helping us out, so please go to amp dot freetalklive dot com. Just takes a moment to get signed up. It makes a big difference for us, when you do it, it's AM amp dot freetalklive dot com. So Johnson, you're sharing with us a story about was it prostitution ref- prostitution? Reform? But the quotes, they're sharing from this Kamala Harris, or at least one of the quotes from Kamala Harris sounded really good. She's talking about how, hey if there's if there's no victim consensual activity between adult should be legal as basically what she said. Well, a million in one case as you can throw out her immediately to get her to recant that, quote, well, during her twenty eight year tenure as a county prosecutor this, according to reason dot com. This is their cover story. I happen to know that because somebody apparently subscribed us to reason, the reason magazine's been coming here for the last couple of months, it was on the table over there. But on if it's still is anyway, that's how I saw this story and it says here that during her twenty eight year tenure as a county prosecutor. I don't really need to go any further. I mean that's bad enough news that she was a prosecutor for twenty eight years, because usually those people are constantly prosecuting cases like prostitutes, and drug dealers and other people who you know, are victimless criminals, but it goes on district attorney and even state attack. Torney general. So she was the top up the top boss of all the cops in whatever state, she comes from. I'm not sure what that is. But she just ladies, bad news Harris proved being quite willing to live up to the epithet in the public eye. She spoke of racial Justice and liberal values. Bolstering her credit is one of the democratic party's rising stars but behind closed doors. She repeatedly fought for more aggressive prosecution of not just violent criminals, but people who committed misdemeanours and quality of life crimes every attorney general fights for state power and police prerogatives. It's part of the job, but over and over again, Harris went beyond the call of duty fighting for harsher sentences larger bail requirements longer prison terms, more prosecution of petty crimes greater criminal Justice involvement in low income and minority communities in less due process for people in the system. Less transparency and less account. Ability forbade police. Wow. Now, we're supposed to believe that all of a sudden, she's all this reformer. Yeah. Opposite. Like I said, they'll say the opposite, when they're running their camping. And there's this is a that was just an excerpt from a lengthy cover story. You can check it out at reason dot com. I just wanted to add that in there's a believable, quote from somebody who's not a politician and therefore, not a filthy dirty liar. We've learned the this less, we've learned this lesson, many times with the prohibition of alcohol, do we though or criminal. Well, we've we should have learned learned the lesson just, you know, whether we're actually going to do anything about it. So we've learned this lesson many times the prohibition of alcohol or criminalization of abortion or even the criminalization of marijuana. The black market creates dark circumstances and provides cover for a lot of violence and exploitation said Caitlin Bailey, a comedian and former prostitute who serves who serves as the spokeswoman for decriminalize sex work, which was founded last year prostitution is only legal in a few counties in Nevada. And even there, the Bravo industry had to recently beat back a Bill that would have outlawed prostitution in the state and even the most optimistic of those pushing for changes, do not believe that any state will soon fully decriminalize, decriminalize prostitution sex workers, probably. Anytime soon. Workers harassed assaulted and illegally targeted for deportations amid a culture of in a phobia, after Brexit campaign. This must have been a caption from picture. I'm using bliss is also UK story says, where the talking about Brexit here. Yeah. Yeah. So but they believe that there was a picture of the article here, that was that was just reading a caption, for, unfortunately. But it says, but in places like New York where Democrats now control, the state legislator after a few sorry, did it before in New York. Oh. Suddenly they control the state legislature. Anyway, after a slew of recover, Republican incumbents were unseeded November by democratic challenger. So I guess maybe they did. You know, just get control or maybe they didn't have control, but more of a stalemate before. But anyway, in November, they were unseeded by democratic challengers running up progressive platforms. There's no question that the environment has changed and a recent rally in Albany to repeal the statute, criminalizing loitering for the purposes of prostitution. Former sex workers stood next to lawmakers like, misery, Ramose, and Richard and Godfried, chairman of the health committee nonetheless, some advocates for sex trafficked and abused women characterized such efforts in New York and elsewhere as misguided they believe that full decriminalization will create a demand that will be filled by more women prostitution, duh, if there's a if there is a greater demand, it'll be filled by women presumably, although there are certainly sa- male sex, sex, workers out there. But it doesn't say they'll be filling it with sex. Trafficked victims. It'll be women who wanna make some money and aren't, you know, as a frayed to do it because maybe they won't go to prison over. It prostitution is inherently violent said, oh, my God. And Matheson, a program specialist at sanctuary for families, a Manhattan based organization that serves she ugly. I don't know. No picture this thing, what was her name, and Matheson. Okay. New York Caen so eighteen Mamie anything, I think it's an could be Manhattan based organization that serves victims of domestic violence and is part of the anti decriminalization coalition sex buying promotes sex trafficking, and promotes pimping and organized crime and sexual exploitation of children. The pushes the push to present decriminalization as a civil rights issue has also upset Laura Ramirez a co coordinator for a few your that spelled with three. An international feminist group who said she was absolutely appalled at the fact that this is being sold as something that's progressive women's shouldn't be able to control their bodies. A male lawmakers should. View, right. We should have laws. It's sort of, like, you know, like, when they say, like men shouldn't be able to make this decision like Roe versus Wade. Oh, wait. What was the supreme court's composition? When Rovers raid was decided. Oh, yeah. Anyway. It's ridiculous. This the proposed legislation is the most classiest racist, and absolutely to sledge asleep that we have ever seen miss Ramirez said during a counter protests opposing decriminalization in Albany, adding women and girls of this state deserve better while decriminalization is unlikely to pass New York this year. A pair of bills dealing with elements of prostitution appear to have a greater chance of patching, including one that would vacate non-prosecution related crimes, like drug charges from the records of victims of sex trafficking. I think it's interesting the opponents to the stuff. I mean to look at what they're saying and how they're trying to claim here that they're in favor of women, but really what they're in favor of is restricting the sex marketplace. They're in favor of giving certain women. The ability to have more control over men, and how could you be against something like this, this, this Bill, that would vacate nonprofit? Petition related crimes like drug charges from the records of victims of sex trafficking because there, obviously, they also tend to have drugs forced on them. Then they get the catch other us to drive, you know, drug charges because they've been forced into slavery. They wanna put these women these people will come back with more. It's free talk live, eight fifty five four fifty free dealing with overwhelming credit card debt that it's time to get rid of it with a mortgage refinance from American financing, you'll work with a salary based mortgage consultants. So there's no pressure and no commission. No upfront fees either I recommend American financing because they continue to help customers save one thousand dollars or more each month without resetting, their loan term, you may even be able to postpone up to two months of mortgage payments, creating an even greater upfront savings, not a home. Owner yet. 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I wanted to be around people like me who got it. And once I got here, I knew there was no or else, I wanted to be, I've always wanted to change the world. So I moved to the Shire, to join people who were actually working towards doing the same thing. The people here are awesome loving and positive. It was for the adventure. And for the feeling of something important is happening here. And I just wanted to come to sort of be part of that visit Shire, society dot com to read and sign the Shire, society declaration, and learn the reasons why if you love liberty you should immigrate to the Shire. Plus connect with others via the forum at Shire, society dot com. That's Shire, society dot com. If you want to know the latest about free talk live before we go on the air, all you need to decide is how you wanted to livered. It's your choice. Visit news dot freetalklive dot com to receive are usually weekly news updates by Email. 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Perhaps, if you get on the phones now, our toll free number is eight, fifty five four fifty free talking about the efforts to decriminalize prostitution nationwide. Johnson, you've got a story from the UK's independent sharing about that. Plus, if you wanna comment on whatever's on your mind, you can join us here. It's in Johnson and silver. Dave in the studio here tonight. Don't forget Johnson. You sell the official free talk live gear our t-shirts shirts and stood up the hoodies. I mentioned right. Yeah. Over on liberty minded and dramatically. Like you're not going to get a hoodie of this quality for as low price because I don't have a lot of space. Where where I'm living here in New Hampshire and I don't feel like renting a warehouse, right? So. During all these in. It's like I'd like my closet. I know I'm not going to get my, but I've lowered the price of these things because I would actually price cut, I would like to one dollars off. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I would like to be able to have more shirt variety, actually, I would like to focus on t shirts. Hoodies take up more room. They do take up a lot more room in it. I may not discontinue hoodies entirely. I don't know. I'm not sure I might just limit it down to one style and pick that style. But is right now I have far too many. It's ridiculous. How many of these I have, so. Ornament. Hopefully they'll move. Yeah. So you've got freetalklive merchandise featured on the site right now. And you have put a big price break on these zippered style hoodie. Well the other one pullover as well. Very, very cool. Go check him out over liberty minded dot com. That's not. Yeah. Like completely offensive t shirts that I wouldn't even recommend anyone wear like my thin is you get attacked like my thin blue line. Gang t-shirt talking about the nation's largest gang. The police and some other shirts. Just steal. It. Spoof on the communist logo on it. So, right. In yellow. Yeah. And. Some crypto car. I don't think I've seen this before shirts. There's, there's one with a like a criminal in Bollock lava pointing a town that you and it says the honest tax collectors says relax it's for the roads available in multiple colors, by the way. Yeah. And of course, sizes and such so get on over there. There's some really cool stuff that Johnson's got going on. You cannot get these shirts anywhere else. These are pretty pretty original content that you came up with, with some input from some fans and such people are ordering their shirts over at liberty minded dot com. You still have the shirts as well. Yes. That's right. Yeah. Lauren dot FM t shirts in in war. Get on over to liberty minded dot com. Grab some hoodies perfect time of the year to, to get a hoodie, because, you know, you don't wanna get in the wintertime, you want to get it now. Because in the wintertime, they're more expensive in a lot of grosses. I mean, either way, if you get them for me or getting a very teal and they're good quality because they're very in there. They are. Are the heavyweight guild in which means that they are, you know, mostly cotton? I believe. It depends on whether or not the full zip or the pullover. One of them is one hundred percent cotton the a little bit of a blend, but they are very high quality at ease. And, you know, most people who have gotten them are wearing them like a decade later. It's true. That's how long they've been around. Yeah. And some people are still wearing the the original hoodie that. They've bought I will see them floating around park vegetarian a week, you know. To sell at these events. But you were just online only now. It just it wasn't an, you know, like the there's when you when you have a specific market and you have the same people go in that, right? They've all got her after year. I've saturated that market. And it's just I still sell plenty of stuff, if, but if I'm not bringing a huge variety, which for me, it's hard to bring a huge variety of t-shirts again, because I don't have the room 'cause at full of hoodies. So a lot of these shirts are print on demand anyway, right? The yeah. Now, now, I've kind of gone to that model because it makes sense, more sense for me. Specifically, you know there are some that maybe I would screen print in the future, if I you know, to this model is very good to sort of figure out what's what's not, and it's nice to because I can still have shirt and I can go into a niche weird market. I have to be careful though. Like so, for example, the fidora the fedora, the explorer shirt that I am. It's about, you know, like software distribution freedom and stuff like that kind of mocking that, and mocking people hopping around destroys and Lennox. I can't print this shirt anymore. So I couldn't even I thought you I found a new printer the new printer has said no to. Wow. Yeah. They're, they're, they're all very scared that they're gonna get sued by Viacom so crazy. Yeah. It's ridiculous. The amount of fear that these companies have over anything that could possibly represent something. I see a shirt with a Facebook logo on it. Why aren't they afraid of printing? I know they, but they have said like, we might have problems with some of the other stuff in the future. We'll lo we'll let you know. So those Dora the explorer or fedora. The explorer shirts are going to be real collectors items for those that did. Right. Well, I'll find another way to get him. Print. Okay. All right. Maybe I don't know. Maybe. Yeah. But still if there if it's a band shirt, then the price. Yeah. Should go up. Right. All right. So check it out. Liberty minded dot com. Let's bring David on the line. He's in Albuquerque. You're on free talk live. Hello, david. First of all, since the Kamala is running for president, everybody should Google Kamala, the wrestler, so you can have that visual image when you're listening to Kamala. Harris matter of fact, I think the dudes real name is the same. I think his last Harris to hold on. You're saying Kamal is a dude. James here is yeah. The KOMO James harasses Kamala that Ugandan head hunter. He's like a WWE or something like that. Yeah. And he's got the famous name as Kamala. Harris is in Paris. About all all right. Anything else cool. Yeah. About the truth prostitution in, in the Netherlands, you know, not only is prostitution legal all over Europe than in other places in the world. But in another Lund's, they consider stacks, a necessity for life, and so people that are just disabled over there, legally disabled homebound types like the guy, this guy is dead now so I can talk about him. Pat Murdoch is died. He's a he was a judge here in New Mexico and the cops did a sting on him and busted him for hiring prostitutes to come and have sex with him. He was disabled, he was about four foot six or something and had polio type disease. I don't know what you had your sure. But obviously he wasn't able to go out and pick up chicks. And so he was paying them for it, and, and he got bust them in a jail. Pardon? I said, put them in a jail cell criminal. Yeah. Dairy. In the Netherlands, they consider sex. They need a legitimate need, and so once a month the state will pay the fifty bucks or one hundred bucks for prostitute to visit disabled people if they want it is part of their healthcare, because they say. Pick for HMO plan. Yes, you get to pick your doctor and you pick your prostitute now. Like those other ones where they assign one to you that you may not like as much David, thanks for the call tonight. Appreciate here works. What do you mean? Like you have to pick a prostitute. That's in network. Right. Be so co pay copay copays I eight dollar co pay. Does it should we? Is there more here Johnson that you wanted to share the pain? Or should we find out about mind control? Unlike the last two look, here's isn't really fair to cover this. Yeah. This is a patent for. I feel like maybe another time, but this is maybe maybe next week, maybe where you're gonna be on next week Johnson. Are you here for that? You're not going to be fast. It'll just be me Dave skip ahead in the article here to this park. All right. Yes, relevant, the main Bill was declared dead in the state Senate in late may yet. No, the main Bill, mayo, Mick main. The main male was declared dead in the state Senate in late may, but other recent efforts have also stalled in two thousand seventeen for instance, the New Hampshire house of representatives. Narrowly passed a Bill establishing a legislative committee to study decriminalizing sex work like the current proposal in Rhode Island, but the New Hampshire bills stalled in the state Senate amid strong opposition from Governor Chris news new Republican who does the bidding of the police to Bill sponsor. Elizabeth Edwards left off. This last year. But stater. Yup. Who sense has rejected libertarianism but said she hopes that her former colleagues will continue to fight at seem at least she hasn't been hostile to her credit actually wrote a blog post on her blog all about why she is no longer identifying as a libertarian. But unlike a couple, or at least unlike another state Representative who's actively hostile towards her previous friends who are libertarians. She's actually still Elizabeth Edwards is still friends with the libertarians. She's, she's still at least, you know, friendly and works together with Ryan. Yeah. So so, you know, she says it's seems like an area policy where we could do way better. I wished the world we knew I wish the world knew that these are just people making money in a way that I think is a net societal benefit, right? I said words, a Democrats added, there are always going to be people that want sex. It's a basic human drive. All you can do is make it safer by legalizing. And this article edited on appreciator quote. Yeah, I love it. I love it, and that was from the independent independent, cool. Well, she thought over on our social media on Twitter and mastodon Twitter dot freetalklive dot com. The mass Don is to dot freetalklive dot com, also telegram dot freetalklive dot com and see tomorrow, freetalklive dot com. In the meantime. To the protection of life, liberty and properties is what the Free State price about. But it's it's an effort to move twenty thousand people who understand it's about demonstrating to the entire country. Yeah. We can have a free market, a truly fee market, making it just a great place to live. It's the world's largest voluntaristic libertarian community, and it's only getting bigger, that's amazing to be able to move to other people, flick passionately believe in being free and independent what the Free State project is managing to do, though, is to put their money where their mouth physically getting up across the country and saying, let's go someplace, and let's demonstrate the power of these ideas. There's a lot of kind of philosophy that surrounds liberty. There's a lot of thinking about it and talking about it, but here in New Hampshire. People are doing one hundred one reasons. Liberty lips in New Hampshire a documentary by Free State project early movers. Watch it free at one oh, one reasons film dot com one, oh one reason. Spill dot com. Sell for when one is a free app for Android, and IOS that replaces government control nine one, one cell phone on one allows you to preset a group of friends, or private organizations to show up at any emergency sell for one, one is a nightmare for the state because it proves their so called services are needed sell four one, one had thousands of installs. And of course, it's covered by the pip, Kat, no government license sell four, one one, because your friends won't shoot you when you're in trouble without the government, who would build the emergency services, you and sell for one one get it today and get cell four one one dot com. L dot FM is proud to announce our official listening apps for Android and devices. Now, you can easily tune into our streams anywhere anytime on your smartphone or tablet, just visit app, STA L, RN dot FM, or search for L RN dot FM and the Android or apple app stores. Please download rate is five stars. Then show the link on your social media, and let your friends and family know how you're listening to Ella rent FM download it now free app. Sta element. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio network. Broadcasting leaper seven. A- hurtling newsfeed. This is the liberty be your daily source for Liberty News and activists updates produced in partnership with SNL, S news and listeners like you online. Liberty beat dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle. Your latest edition of the liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is trading around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices are brought to you by ino- scale takeoff with manage go out looking for a safe secure way to store, your important files online, let Enos Gail handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online. It didn't know scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to its 2016 report on the FBI's use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also. Shared during a congressional house oversight committee hearing, the FBI now has access to six hundred forty one million photos, including driver's license, and ID photos, but it still refuses to assess the accuracy of it systems activists post reports that the facial analysis comparison and evaluation services unit not only has access to epi is next generation at indication face recognition database, nearly thirty million civil and criminal mugshot. Does it also has access to the State Department's visa and passport databases? The FBI has done little in the last three years to make sure that it search results are accurate. According to the new report mill liberty being is sponsored in part by brave botanical 's high-quality, crate him in CBD at reasonable prices with excellent, customer service rave botanical is activist owned and mission driven and believes so strongly in the power of crate him. They're giving it away for free. Just go to free ounce of creative dot com for a free trade them delivered to your door. For just pay shipping. That's free creidim dot com. This is the latest edition of the liberty beat. Find us online at liberty beat dot news and SNL S dot news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London. Have arrested four teenagers involved in a reprehensible attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality they mind. Unleash your port St. four males age fifteen and eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie, gaming that, hey. Twenty-eight-year-old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself, and her girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted Bank group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertain. Moment of the hooligans, the young men and teens beat them leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, a Louisiana woman allegedly died from TAC, overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, they mind unleashed, citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body, while THC can cause heart palpitations, and extreme anxiety and some users, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts have also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses Ripon. Possible the growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have likewise, risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network featuring videos news reports articles from spiritual anarchist perspective, experience, the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business featured on the liberty beat? You can just in an Email to liberty beat at SNL S dot news for details. This is the liberty beat produced in partnership with SNL as news and listeners like you. The liberty is online at liberty beat dot news and SNL dot news. I'm McMurdo reporting for the liberty be reminding you spread liberty with a smile. He says, if you're sixty five or older and suffering from back pain you may qualify to receive an advanced pain relieving back brace at little or no cost to you. 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And wherever you might be across this great country of ours and around the world. I'm Ron bar. Good to have you with us for another addition of sports by line. Of course, this is leading up to Sunday, where we have Father's Day. And I thought it would be interesting, if we went into our library of more than twenty thousand interviews and shared with during the course of the week in the second hour of the show interviews with fathers and sons. And so this show we've got David, Sean Willie Shaw in the second hour coming up, David, Shaw course, the fine football coach at Stanford very successful down there and Willie shies dead fine coach in the NFL and college football as well. But he also played in the National Football League. So that's coming up on this edition sports by line in the second hour, but we're going to kick things off in just a second. Drew Stokes berry, standing by, he's a state Representative in Washington state, and he has introduced legislation. Listen to this to allow student athletes enrolled in Washington state colleges to earn. Compensation. Now I've talked about this for a very long period. And there's been a lot of pushback throughout the NCWA, and this state Representative says his goal is to advance the conversation about amateurism. And to try to pressure, the NC, double A into changing its draconian rule. He described the NC double A as a cartel like and you know what? He's absolutely right about that. So I think you'll be very interested in what drew Stokes berry has to say. And then right after that longtime bestselling contributing writer to New York Times magazine Micheal Sokolov is going to be here. His work has been included in the best American sports, and Thala gies and sports books include the ticket out Darrell strawberry, and the boys of Crenshaw and hustle, the myth life, and lies of Pete Rose in his also written, two books about coach John Calipari. His latest book is a fascinating look in another big name coach. It's called the last temptation of Rick Pitino. A story of corruption SC. Candle and the big business of college basketball. So think about that one for a second. Let me tell you about what's coming up later this week, especially in that second hour. We're featuring father and sons, Dan, Fouts, and Bob Fouts are going to be with us on the next sports, byline, Dan. Of course, you know, hall of fame quarterback. And Bob Fouts is dead was the broadcaster for the San Francisco forty Niners. And Dan was the ballboy for the forty Niners when his dad was doing the broadcasts? So we're ready to go. Good to have you with us on America's sports talk show. You'll do it right. To grow the fest garden. You can't lows does it right to savings on miracle grow potting mix of fertilizer to help you get growing in grow plants twice as big versus unfit plants pick up a fifty court bag now for just ten dollars. 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He's a state Representative in Washington state, and he's introduced legislation to allow student athletes enrolled in Washington state colleges to earn compensation. And he says his goal is to advance the conversation about amateurism and to try to pressure the NCWA into changing its draconian rule, and he describes the NC, double A, as cartel drew, first of all, tell me how you're thinking, in your decision to introduce this legislation to pay college athletes in Washington, evolved. You're right, that there is an evolution for me. It wasn't that long ago when I was in law school. And I went to university of Notre Dame and they had a decent football team at the time and as they often do. And so this, this is the topic of conversation that would come up and for a while, in my life, I was sort of firmly in the amateurism camp and felt like allowing players to be paid would would serve destroy everything vnc the Belay. But the more I kind of examined the issue and got the understand some of the things going on the more I thought that this was was on tenable to the point where I finally dropped his appeal, so you know, certainly, as a Republican, I believe that people should be free to do what they want 'specially when it doesn't harm other people. And right now, we have a system where the, the market has developed in this perverse way where if let's say Nike, and let's say you dub quarterback Jake Browning wanted to reach and agreement where Nike would pay the court. Evac fifty thousand dollars to wear the suit where some shoes and appearance and billboards that contract is against the current rules. And so this legislation would essentially say that, that the camp enforce those rules here in Washington, and it would in a way open the market backup, Pulau player, some freedom. There's also a fairness issue at play. And this is the one that I think is, is easiest for people understand. I've seen a Belay generates billions of dollars a year through three NCAA itself. It's conference is it's, it's too shins and its institutions teams and you hear all these stories about record salaries paid to coaches, and assistant coaches and bowl fficials. There was a story this year about the outback bowl director who makes a million dollars a year. You have these institutions who are selling really expensive tickets jerseys that all, but have the players name on the back of them. You have media companies like ESPN and FOX paying records amount of money to for the rights to air the games and everybody who's involved in the system is better off than they were ten years ago and far better off than they were twenty thirty years ago. Not accept the players themselves are completely locked out of the system. And that's just as it's fundamentally unfair. I in a state legislator, who in Washington, and I've been as I talk to people, I say, look, I think this is just against our values as washing Tony. That an athlete should be able to have a shot to earn. What somebody wants to pay him. If you have a chemistry student who he might even be on scholarship. If he gets a summer job in the field he wants to go pro in. He gets to work for a possible, or pharmaceutical company during the summer he gets plotted in for, for being such a great student. But if if an athlete gets a summer job in the field, they want to go pro in their banned for for coming back to college. And it just doesn't really make sense to treat those folks differently into completely locked them out of the market, that they're responsible for creating the first place you know, as well as I do, there's a real irony here because if you take a look at professional sports. The people that drive the revenue namely the athletes. They get a large portion of the income, that is derived from driving that revenue, but in college, it's not that way what happened here. Why has it stayed that way in college sports, as compared to pro sports, you know, I think it's because. When the system developed fifty eight years ago, it's it's sorta made sense there, there wasn't the huge amount of money at play. I, I was telling the story when the Bill had a hearing earlier today about a constituent, who emailed me talk about how he played for you in nineteen seventy seven and I went and looked it up in dodge, aims, it was the second or third year as coach there. And he made twenty eight thousand dollars a year there just wasn't a lot of money in college athletics. Not even that long ago. And so maybe you could make a philosophical argument about about it. But the, the dollars and cents ju just weren't really there to make that pressing of an issue. But that's not the case anymore. And so as, as the enterprise of the NCAA has grown, the institutions, and the incident lay itself in the compensate everybody who has the power in the control, you know, there rational economic actors, they don't have an incentive to. Change the rules and share a part of that pie with the students. So the students are sort of locked out, and the more value that gets created, as, as, as, you know, people get more excited than spend more money on, on sports. It just exacerbates that inequality argument you get on the other side. I know you've heard it. I've heard a number of times on this national show is well what about their scholarships? Isn't that enough? And you give a perfect example. Why it's not? Yeah. You know, I think for for a lot of athletes, probably even the majority of athletes that scholarship is pretty good compensation. You know, I couldn't name a single player who is on the university of Washington swim team or the w volleyball team or the guns. I could track team you know, there's really only in the scheme of NCA athletic. There's only a small percentage of folks who probably could have the potential to earn a lot of money outside of the value of their scholarship. But so let's use the example of of really. High profile player like here in Washington Jake Browning. He'll if you pay the cost of his scholarship and attendances stipend, it say fifty thousand dollars a year. Sure that's a lot of money. Sure. The opportunity for world class education is great, but Jake Brown and give it a lot more money back to the university through through prating opportunities for the effect department, derive revenue. Then he gets in evaluated scholarship. And so, the example, I've been using is imagine, you know, your salesmen at a company and you have a fifty thousand dollars a year salary and at the end of the year. You look at the books in it turns out, you brought in two million dollars worth of business to your company. And so you go to your boss, and you say, hey boss, I think I should get a raise because I looked at the books that I brought in two million dollars worth of business in and you're only paying fifteen thousand dollars. And if the boss looks back at you and says, well, you know what you should be thankful to have a job in the first place. Not everybody is lucky enough to get a fifty thousand dollar year job. So you should be thankful for what I give you I don't think, you know, ordinary employees. He's like you and me if we're in that situation would find that to be an appropriate response. And so I don't know why we would expect those athletes who are in a similar situation where they're, they're, especially getting something that's valuable, perhaps around fifty thousand dollars a year, but could easily on the open market fetch way more. But it there's incidentally rules that prohibit them from doing so, so just like I don't think we would accept that answer from our boss. If we were in the situation, I don't know why we should expect college athletes to accept that answer as well. We only have about two and a half minutes left. But you point out about the NCWA rules inconsistencies, and you talk about Cuyler Murray and Michael schooling. Tell everybody about those two examples. Yeah, you know, one of the other refrains that we hear from folks that are opposed to the idea is, you know, hey, let the pros be pros. I want college athletes amateurs, and I, I can sympathize with that, certainly. But if you, if you start to look at it, that's really not the case these days, you know, for one. I don't even know how amateur the whole system is anyway when you're talking about football, coaches and bowl officials that make millions of dollars a year. That's not really that amateur system in the first place. But the to the to ease examples for even the athletes are Cuyler Mary, who just won the Heisman Trophy this year. He is a professional athlete. He got paid to play professional baseball in the Oakland A's system last year as he's still an amateur athlete when he's a professional athlete another sport. I, I wouldn't say so even more agreed to sleep. There is a swimmer from university of Texas, that won the gold medal in the two thousand sixteen games beat Michael, Phelps in a in a in a swimming race he competed for Singapore, and the Singapore Olympic team gave him a seven hundred fifty thousand dollar gold medal bonus and other NCWA rules because he competed for the Olympic team that was permitted. So, you know, somehow you have a guy who's making almost a million dollars at because he's good at swimming is still considered the nature swimmer and that does. Really pass the smell test. So these rules are increasingly arbitrary unfair to the players. Put them in a totally separate class than the coaches than their peers that our students at the same schools that aren't athletes, and, you know, I just don't think that's viable criticism anymore in about forty five seconds. Generally speaking, what's been the reaction to your efforts. It's, it's actually been pretty positive. You know certainly there. There's folks that have shared some of the concerns that we've got over in terms of, you know, folks should be happy with the scholarship athletes should should definitely be amateurs. But reception has been pretty positive. The Bill had a hearing today on Wednesday to, to it before the house higher education committee, that went really, well, a lot of members asked really interesting. And good questions. There's a chance that we could move a Bill Ford in the Senate as well. So, you know, I think it's important conversation to have. I've had legislator from other states including. California reach out to me to figure out how they can export this idea to their states. And even if we don't change things overnight, I think, if more states realize that they have the power to make take some corrective action within their states that, that even might be enough to force the simple to come to the table and figure out a better way of doing business. I agree with you, and I wanna keep following this because I've been a proponent, forgiving athletes, financial aid beyond just their scholarship. True. Take care, come back, and visit with us again on sports byline sounds good. Thanks for having me again. Drew Stokes berry, and he's a state Representative in Washington state, and he's introduced legislation to allow student athletes enrolled in Washington state colleges to earn compensation. We've got on sports byline. It has been said that everyone has a book in them. 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Don't wait another minute to see if you may qualify for your social security disability benefits called pinnacle disability group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one for your free case evaluation, that's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. Call now. This is America's sports talk show sports. Byline USA. Here's Ron book. Michael soccer love is joining us here on sports byline. He's a longtime bestselling contributing writer to the New York Times magazine is work has been included in the best American sports, anthologies and his sports books include the ticket out, Darrell strawberry, and the boys of Crenshaw and hustle, the myth life and lies Pete Rose. And he's also written two books with coach John Calipari isn't his latest book as a fascinating look at another big name coach. It's called the last temptation, Rick Pitino a story of corruption scandal and the big business of college basketball. First of all, Michael, how hard was it for you to get your head around this subject, and it's vastly and write this book? All books accounts. One certainly was because there are a lot of characters. I mean there there's a big character and Rick Pitino and the big place in Louisville, meaning the university of Louisville in the city itself, but there are a lot of peripheral characters and threads of the federal criminal trial. That's that's currently going on. But what I what I thought was that this current scandal really put names and faces and worked to a lot of things that we suspected, we're going on in the college basketball, creating world. And that's the direction I took I just sort of tried to Wade out into that, and sort it out and write it almost in a novelist way, where people would look at this one, turn the pages and figure out what happened and why, you know, like yourself myself and others that are in this business. We certainly have known about this for a particularly long period of time, and I was so happy, but surprised to see somebody take on this subject because it's really like jello in some. Ways just about the time. See shake one direction. It shakes the other direction. How did you deal with that aspect of this story? Well, I think you have to allow yourself to be surprised, you know and, and one that one, one of the aspects of that is allow your imagination to roam free. Meaning not that you're making except but that you that you look in the places you should look and in this case, you know, what, what I really discovered is that kids are being paid benefits the really good players by the time. They're in middle school. It's, it's a grassroots basketball situation. So the, by the time the college Curtis come around, you know, families are saying, well, what I can't you pay us. Or if you can't pay us, y you know why has it stopped now because, hey, we've been getting paid for years. And I understand that, by the way, I don't blame the families because there are billions and billions and billions of dollars coursing through college sports, particularly men's basketball and football and you know, it's a real question as to whether the families and. The kids are are deserving of some of it take me back. Where did all this start? Well, you know, in terms of college basketball history, it starts from the very beginning, one of the things that I said in the book, and the book starts this way is imagined. If the black SOX scandal, the nineteen nineteen scandal, and what's the World Series was thrown? What if all those characters were somehow still magically on the scene? And you know mixing with the players and the frightening than their favorite bars, and there was no Kennesaw mountain Landis, and the split never got cleaned up. Well, you know what that's college basketball? College basketball had point shaving, you know, gambling problems from its very beginnings, and it's had them almost every decade, since, and now it has recruiting scandals. And the sport is a beautiful sport. It's also dirty sport. And the reason that that's true is because there's this gray market created. There's this big divide between all the money that. All kinds of people benefit from and virtually none of it down to the players. Yeah, it seems to me that there's perception in reality here. And I don't think most people grasp that in the perception is student athletes, and their going and getting an education. The reality is student athletes generating a hell of a lot of money for, for other people in university, semi correct. On that observation. What you are correct. And I think these things are not mutually exclusive so something athletes, including basketball and football players are getting an education and if they're self motivated the cat. It's difficult, by the way, because they are athletes, I but that doesn't mean that if you generate forty five million dollars in revenue for a basketball team, which is what the university of Louisville was generating that if you one of the thirteenth scholarship players my team that you're not deserving of a chunk of that you are the labor force. In this case, you're an unpaid labor force at what they do with that money instead is pay everybody with it. But you the baseball coach at Louisville who may in fact, be great coach. He's getting paid a million bucks a year and that's better than a lot of major League Managers. Why is he getting paid a million bucks a year because they gotta do something with the money, and that is the really unjust aspect of college sports. Well, you know, one of the things I thought about was associated economic situation of all of this. We're talking about a sport that's dominated by African Americans African Americans who may come from an urban environment and don't have much as they're growing up. Does that factor into this in any way? Well, I think it has to do you can't ignore it. You know, it's and I don't want to say that, that every player who comes up through the grass roots or a, you basketball circuit is poor or desperate. That's absolutely not the case. There are plenty of middle class kids coming up. But there are plenty of kids who who come from families that do need some money who do need the rent, you know, paid and the and the lights kept on and their kids are deserving money, but I don't necessarily make that division. I think anybody that generates millions of dollars of millions of dollars a year in revenue, just the way the world works the way, the world should work, you deserve a little bit of chunk of that. And when you don't get it, that's where all the temptation comes in. You know, I've had long conversations with Sonny Vaccaro on, I guess, you could say he is the godfather, grassroots basketball. And now he's trying to do something to clean it up. And he may be pushing against. A wave. A big wave right here, but tell them a little bit about the history and him involving with grassroots basketball. Yes. Sunny gets sunny. Proudly calls himself, the godfather of all this, and others do to, and he's a colorful and very smart individual, and he is the person who was working for Nike, and brought Michael Jordan to Nike. And you know that exploded the basketball sneaker in the culture, it made it bigger than basketball. It made Nike more that a company that puts out track shoes, but I think a lot of people quite this out on the book. Don't fully understand the role if these, these companies play now these companies wanna find the next Michael Jordan. Well that already happened there is no next Michael Jordan. They're not putting shoes on kids who might be the next Michael Jordan, Dita's and Under Armour and Nike are putting shoes on kids to go to Adidas Nike or Under Armour schools, and play basketball and function as human billboards. To where all the gear the sneakers, the jerseys, the, the trunks, the wrist bands, the headbands, if they wear them, you know, they are walking billboards and the idea is to get the good players to, to with your gear to the best teams and create good teams. And hopefully you know what would be great for Nike is four Nike teams in the final four. You consider the same Under Armour and Adidas. And that's, that's what it's all about. And that's where all this money is coming in. And by the way, it's not a lot of money for the sporting goods companies. You know, if you've got ten kids on the court, I'll wear Nike gear as is worth an insane amount of money and advertising. That's their goal and the other thing in correct me, if you think I'm wrong about this. But the fuel for this scandal is really that you've got three companies that are really in business to make money. And I'm talking about Nike Adidas and under armor. So therefore, once they get into competition, and they knew the only way they can get an athlete is to. Give one athlete more money than the other company is willing to give them. Then all of a sudden, we got a fire that's being aided by that fuel. That's exactly what it is at the center of this concept of pace. And at the center of, of the last temptation, Rick Pitino to a large extent, is Brian Bowen junior, who is known as tug. He's, he's a very nice kid. He's a very good player. He got a lot of money coming up from the time. He was fifteen or sixteen years old, and he got it from his high school. You got it from a couple of different AAU clubs. He got it from Dita's the source of all the money, really was the shoe companies and what's really interesting and important to a member about Brian Bo junior is he was no better than say the fifteenth best player in the high school class of two thousand seventeen so that means there's fourteen other guys. So we're getting paid to we can suspect, maybe not all of them, but he wasn't the only guy out there and there's a good possibility that there were twenty thirty or forty and some of them were getting more touch was getting in about forty seconds. Before we break here is there anything that is fries. You about the. What you found out in the early research, and going of writing this book. I guess, just the extent of it, you know, I'm not I'm not naive. I'm also not overly cynical. I think I didn't really know how much money was spread out all over the place. And also some of the people indicted in this case, he system coaches. They're not outliers. They were very well known. Well liked people within the basketball industry. This is business as usual in many ways. And it's but now it surfaced. This is a very fascinating well written book, and I urge everybody to check it out. We're going to make it a selection of the month on the sports, byline USA book owner at talks about the scandal in basketball, but in the next segment, we'll talk about hall of fame basketball. Rick Pitino and his career, of course, he was fired by Louisville along with the athletic director down there. There's a lot of interesting angles in this book. So I want you to check it out the last temptation of Rick Pitino as we continue across the country and around the world we've got you on sports. Byline. Five recently discovered the powerful health benefits of CBD oil. I've been using new leaf natural CBD oil for some time now and I love it. CBD oil is non intoxicating. What make which makes it ideal for people like me? I want the health benefits of cannabinoid but I don't smoke weed. 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Michael Sokolow is with us here on sports byline, we're talking about is fascinating book called the last temptation of Rick Pitino a story of corruption scandal, and the big business of college basketball, when you think about business. I think everybody has an image of what business is. But I don't think they connect it to college sports so much. What is it? They're missing out and understanding that. That, that people really miss out is the tentacles of college basketball. So let's say you got a big college football game in a university town. He's got a big basketball game at Louisville or or or at North Carolina. Any of these places where you have been hotels fill up for the weekend? You, you have restaurants and bars. You have people who provide transportation for various things, you have catering companies. So one of the things that's happened is the business has become too big. You know, the teeny money's in the billions. The gambling money is growing recruiting services are making money because they've been bought by bigger outfits, like ESPN and Reuters and all kinds of things. So everybody's getting cut of it. So in my mind, you know, some of this really should be dialed back. It doesn't have. To be this big except the infrastructure has been built that sort of almost requires it to stay this big because everybody's getting a cut out of what's going on. What's really going on is ten eighteen or seventeen to twenty one year olds playing basketball? That's what's going on. It hasn't changed the game as great. But the money and the money made off these kids is, what is what's changed, the, the amount of it, you ride in this book about two things that really upset me. And I certainly understand it. Trying to be naive about it. But you really did get into an explain it. Well, first of all, what happens to the billions of dollars that college sports generates? Well, billions of dollars generated Macau sports get spread out among the coaches and administrators and all the people in the industry. You know, you might have a weight trainer or a strength coach getting paid a hundred and fifty thousand dollars year with the free car the life insurance, policy, and good for him. He might be great guy, or, or a great woman and working hard. But that's not a market salary the that's a salary that gets paid because the money that's out there. So, you know that's that's one. That's where the money goes that spits. It just gets spread around the other thing you point out very vividly as how athletic companies by universities and you heard me right. As you listen to this by universities. Well, absolutely, they by the kids, who they outfit in this gear at the kid has some kind of foot problem. The university have to explain to the Adidas or Under Armour or Nike. What's what's wrong with those kids feet than needs to tape over the logo? We're actually may even need to wear a different kind of shoe company doesn't make so that by the kids that by the fan base. They by the alumni base. They by the university town because it's all festooned in the colors and the brand of the apparel company, if he go to buy a book and one of the in, in Louisville bookstore, you know, you've got gotta swimming through, you know, aisles and aisles of lieu of Adidas branded gear before you before you find a book so they sort of by the whole darn thing. And, and then so that much money, by the way, I've added at UCLA the final football coach Jim Mara junior when they signed a big deal with Under Armour. He was very excited. Jim, martyr wasn't he said? Now recruits will know that UCLA is big big big time, which I I'm sorry, I just had a laugh UCLA UCLA has a really fine university Lucy UCLA has seven Nobel prize winners. It had all the championships under John wooden, and he thought it was really big time now because the armor, which is a company, by the way, the founder was selling, compression, shorts out of his trunk like twelve years ago because under armor came around to UCLA. I mean that's just really messed up. But that's the way people think that's the way people on colleges think they want the adulation, and they certainly want the money of the shoe companies, Michael, what happened to the safety net on this abuse. I'm talking about the presidents of university, the chancellors of universities, the AD at universities. They can't control it. If you take any university, president out for a beer or glass of wine, and you sit them down. And you say the him can you control your athletic department? He would if he was being honest, he would say or she would say, no. And if you said to the university president, what's this thing on your campus could blow up tomorrow and caused great embarrassment to your university and cost, you your job? And that university president. Let's say the athletic department. No, it's just the fact I mean, everybody knows it. These things are out of control and they are out of reach of the university presidents. I've been very public in my problems with all of this saying that university, presidents in chancellors, don't know whether the ball is stuffed are blown up, and I find them in conflict of what should be happening, and what I mean by that is they. They need the money they want the money, the alums will do it. But they'll bring it along with tags associated with as well. They'll hop on alums airplane to go to the game that their team is playing at, and that's a conflict, right there, if they're trying to run an honest program. And also the horse is out of the barn right now. Everybody else is doing it. So if we don't do it, they're not going to keep a coach who has all of his players graduating what is going Owen eleven for the season. Am I right about that? Right. You, you know, coach you can survive. Some scandals, you can't survive on eleven probably can't survive five and six or six and five or if you're a basketball coach you can't survive nineteen and fourteen and you don't make the tournament that that's just the reality. So you may be incentivized to cheap and the university presidents. Look look at any university president who gets hired at at any of these big schools that any of these big splits Berg Rams near gonna meet the coach and they're going to be photograph with the coach of football and basketball team. Well before the photograph with the chairman of the chemistry department. I mean they're you know, they're, they're looking for the approval of the coach as opposed to the other way around. And, you know, the mythology and it's by the way, only partly true is that these teams and programs are, are the leading edge of the universe. City and they, you know, first of all of these programs rarely give back money to the university. They're giving a lot more money to themselves than they are to, to the library at university of little Bill, the athletic program, which just grew exponentially, and was very successful under a visionary adeem in Tom George, it was known as the front porch having university. And if you've ever gone and stayed at a Las Vegas casino and you need to get to your room. You realize you need to walk past the blackjack tables, and the tables, and wind your way around the slot machines. And lets you know what's important. Well, this is what the front porch of the university means if that's the front porch. It lets you know what's, what's important. Michael, let's talk about part of this title of this book the last temptation of Rick Pitino. We all know that he was fired. And what he had done over the years. I think what bothers me or at least a question I still have is not what he did. But why did it can you give me any inside on? That. Well, but, you know, it's not a criminal defendant, in this case, and what happened here was that his school is example of one that, that seems to have a player who was paid by one of these sporting to companies to be recruited and it also seems to at least one, and maybe two of us coaches are sort of elbows deep in this stuff at the keynote had two other scandals in his past and in one of them in particular, which was a series of parties at the very small basketball dorm, not far from his office for years. The parties, Keno said, well, I didn't know anything about it, and I must have just hired the wrong guy, and he didn't listen to me, because my staff let me down. Well, that's what he said in west games. He says, I didn't know anything about what was going on with the payments, the Brian bones in you and my feeling about that is strongly. That's the wrong question my questions will why get it. You know about your. Hired to supervise. You're hired to hire the right people. And, you know, he's I think to an extent succeeded in framing the question and a way that benefits them. But in the fantasy world of college splits that sometimes works in the real world of, of American business and leadership. You can't survive when when embarrassing catastrophic things happen on your watch, and that's what's happened on his watch and, and he didn't survive it. Yeah. The other thing, too is I think he lost his moral compass, because it wasn't just the, the one thing you talked about the sex parties. And of course what's happening lately. The first scandal was his one night stand with a motto in her blackmail attempt when those sort of things happen, if you were anybody else in a university, you would be gone after the first one, and that just shows you how we treat sports with a double standard to some degree, does it tell us anything else about sports in life in general. We happen because that was a meal ticket, I mean, that was a terribly embarrassing personal sex scandal that he had, and he did apologize for it. And after that, I would say he was just the basketball coach. He was no longer seen as a mentor, a role model to young men to find, you know, he, he moved on then the second the second thing which was the sex parties for for kids sponsored by a local escort and one of his own coaches, a director of basketball operations, you know, that should have been it. He absolutely should have been fired after that net. Just can't happen on your watch whether you know about it or not. So the fact that he wasn't fired what, you know, that the university daddy, the money he was bringing into the center, more valued a sense of ethics after the story broke about the scandal in. College basketball. Of course, there was the, the blue ribbon college basketball channel, our cat panel, excuse me, chaired by Kennedy's rice. And I had a couple of the people on from that panel with being we talked about the, the results and what they came up with. And then after I had done the interview I just sat back and I laughed I literally land. You write about this in the book. Well, I think they recommended some reasonable thing, but they were all small, you know, they were all small change the times when you can recruit at, you know, basketball players, you know, do this do that. They were all small, there were that panel, which is chaired by Condoleeza Rice. And that's good. People on it among other things. They really decried the influence of the shoe companies on young players, the families and the grassroots basketball circuit lead. They were silent on the influence of the shoe companies giving hundreds of millions of dollars to the university of himself really billions, when you add it all up. So how can the shoe company money be fine for the universities and they're not selling their souls, but bad for the players? So yes, it's I don't wanna say you shouldn't take it seriously because I think they want to about their work. Seriously? I just really don't think they understood it very well. They were even many ways we've got about ninety seconds left, and I will tell you and talking to some of those people privately. They said we've known these were coaches, we've done this going on for a long time. And it's a little bit. Like the FOX guarding the hen house, isn't it? Well, yes and Patino is, you know, going around now talking about, you know, a terrible is what the shoe companies are doing, like it was pocketing millions from them, what you know, that's just absurd. And, you know, he was taking before before Louisville's contract became bigger basically, as a whole the whole shoe, money contract. But now he's like companies real in the game. Well, you got a lot of money from giving it back. What do you want people to take away from this book? Well, I want them to read it as, as a story. I want them to read it to be enriched in a page, turning way, as you would read any book. It's I think it's as difficult, it's some of the material is, it's, it's a pleasure read, and that it reads well, it has big characters that has a story and has an important story. So it's not a preachy book. It's not a lesson book. It's a book that really takes you inside of all this, and I feel like grips you. And in the way that you would hope the book would grip you in about fifteen seconds. You happy with the way book came out thrilled with that. It's penguin press and they did a great job with it. And yes, I'm very happy with a very happy. Well, I'm glad that you wrote this book because you really put it into a concise manner in which I think people will understand. But I think when they put it down, they're going to say, you got to be kidding me. When they read that, but that's the way college sports are today. I wanna thank you. Michael again for writing it, and you are welcome here anytime on sports, byline, take care, my friend. Eric was really great being on with you again. Michael Sokolow of and again, I want you to check out the book. It's called the last temptation of Rick Pitino a story of corruption scandal in the big business of college basketball, we continue with more of you and sports. Byline. Rebuild or replace transmission. 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Call the debt helpline now, eight hundred nine five seven six oh six three eight hundred nine five seven six thousand six three eight hundred nine five seven six oh six three that's eight hundred nine. Nine five seven sixty sixty three. Hi, I'm Dr Robert Clapper. Chief of orthopedic surgery at cedars Sinai Medical group in Los Angeles, California, dedicated to your health, your life, and your sports, as a weekend warrior, you know about sports injuries and pain exercises important element in keeping your body's core in good shape to minimize sports injuries. But when you are in pain, there is one product that I recommend to my patients, and that is blue gel blue consists of a proprietary formula developed specifically for the treatment of inflammation, and general muscle aches, and strains, I recommend blue for my patients, coping with hip and knee pain before surgery, especially bursitis and tendinitis. Give blue go try call one eight eight eight three three zero zero one two three and you'll receive a one week supply of blue absolutely free. The makers of blue or even paying the shipping. The number again is one eight eight eight three three zero zero one two three. If you want more information on blue goo, visit online at WWW dot du dot com. Now available. It's like the big five stores near you. This is America's sports talk show sports. Byline USA. Here's Ron Baugh. Then that's going to wrap up this hour sports. I'm very interesting book by Michael sokolof. It's called the last temptation of Rick Pitino a story of corruption scandal and the big business of college basketball. If you have a chance, you might want to check it out. We're making it a selection of the month on the sports byline book corner. And of course, he's a best selling contributing writer to the New York Times magazine. And we also talked about college sports and college athletes, withdrew Stokes berry state Representative in Washington state, and he is introduced legislation to allow student athletes enrolled in Washington state colleges to earn compensation, and he is looking into changing the Konia rule that the NC double A has about athletes, earning money. He described the NCWA as cartel. I'm Ron bar. Nice to have you with us hanging around. We've got more coming your way on sports. Byline. I'm Lou Landers at Landers tops on Twitter. And I'm Ron mcleese and mad dog f f on Twitter, you can join us every weekend on sports over night, America Fridays eleven PM, insert right here on sports, byline, USA, and Sirius XM to let. You're listening to those sports byline, USA broadcast network. Where the rubber always meets road. Actually, I'm not even sure what that means. Speed radio network lies. I thought news feeds dot com. This is the liberty be your daily source for Liberty News. An activist updates produced in partnership with SNL S news and listeners like you online at liberty, beat dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle with your latest edition. Other liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is turning around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices are brought to you by ino scale take off with manage go out looking for a safe secure way to store, your important files online, let Enos Gail handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online it. Oh, scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to its twenty sixteen report on the FBI's use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also shared during a congrats. 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Pay shipping. That's free ounce of creidim dot com. This is the latest edition of the liberty beat. Find us online at liberty beat dot news and doesn't LS dot news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London have arrested for teenagers involved in a reprehensible attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality. They might unleash your born the four miles age fifteen eighteen are being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous, bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie gaming at eight twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself. And her girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted bag group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of the hooligans. The young men and teens beat them leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, a Louisiana woman allegedly died from an overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, the mind unleashed, citing the New Orleans advocate reports at the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body, while THC can cause heart palpitations and extreme anxiety and some years, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses. Possible the growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have like wise risen. Support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network, featuring videos news reports and articles from a spiritual anarchist perspective, experience the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business featured on the liberty beat? You can just in an Email to liberty beat at dot news for details. 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And glad you could join us for this hour of America's sports talk show, we're going to be talking college football, an NFL football with father and son, or if you prefer son and father because David Shaw is going to be first and then his father Willie show will be here, by the way. A lot of people Email me and say, hey, how about getting this person on your show or that person, or could you do this with your website? And I always encourage you listeners to do that, and it's easy to do. You can Email me at our bar. That's be a are at sports. Byline byline is B. Y L. I N E so it's R bar at sports, byline dot com. And if your thoughtful enough to ride, I'll get back to you personally. So please sign those emails, also at the website you'll find a lot of neat things there, you can always listen to us online. Just go to the homepage and hit that listen live button. And of course, we have a lot of different ways for you to listen to the content on the sports, byline network. We're twenty four hours a day, some five hundred stations in one hundred seventy seven countries to go. Along with our two hundred US radio stations. I heart radio talk, we have a full channel there. So you can listen to us there anytime also. All you have to do is go to Sirius XM were there as well, Stitcher, tune in they'll carry our sports byline content as well. David Shaw have known for a long time. I knew him when he was down at Stanford as a player and he is now the head coach, of course, for the Stanford cardinal and prior to that he was a teams offensive coordinator for the entire time that Jim Harbaugh was the head coach of the cardinal and Shaw played wide receiver for the cardinal in the nineties. He was coached by Dennis Green and Bill Walsh prior to returning to Stanford as the offensive coordinator, and he was Harbaugh's passing game coordinator at the university of San Diego as well. And he was also an assistant coach in the NFL for Philadelphia. Also, the Oakland Raiders in the Baltimore Ravens and his father, Willie Shaw, was an NFL coach and David played high school football in Michigan. While his father coach with the Detroit Lions. And then his dad accepted a coaching job at Stanford in the family moved back to the bay area and then right after that Willie show will join us. The former college cornerback an NFL coach. He was an all conference quarterback at the university of New Mexico and Shaw coach for a total of fourteen teams with his longest NFL stints occurring with the Minnesota Vikings. Two separate stints and the Detroit Lions as well. So I think you'll find this interesting to hear father and son talk about their careers and their teams we're ready to crank it up. Good to have you with us on sports. Byline. You'll do it right. To grow the fest garden. 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David Shaw joins us on sports byline, the fine head coach of the Stanford cardinal doing prior to that. He was the team's offensive coordinator for the entire tenure of head coach, Jim Harbaugh and also he was wide receiver for the cardinals back in the nineties. And he also was an assistant coach in the NFL for Philadelphia Oakland. And the Baltimore Ravens, let me David, first of all, ask about your dad. When did you realize is a kid, what you dad was doing, professionally? Great question. Only when he got the Arabs ONA state. Nineteen eighty kind of figuring it out, you know, the death going to be gone DNA of Spinney in the fall, and we go, visit them a training camp. And these guys out there practicing and the way he's telling them what to do. You know, I kind of realized what coaching actually was and, and that my dad actually did that for a living. And it was it was fascinating to me, because, of course, it was different than all the other kids, that I knew what their dad, it's did and not to mention it was it was, it was Senator around something that was fun and exciting that other people thought was fun and exciting to that connection between father and son is so important. And I'm just wondering what the times that your dad had to stay late at night with his coaching duties, and also be gone on the weekends. And everything was that hard for you. Or did you understand it? Since it was that way, my entire life. I never really thought about it too much. I was more surprised that other people's dads in our home for dinner every single night. And, you know, they, they weren't gone for four weeks at a time, going recruiting, etc. So my mom did a phenomenal job of keeping the household working, but we appreciate it. What am I dad was there? And, you know, we proceeded to the groundwork that he set for us as far as responsibilities because we started realize about him was, you know, he didn't want to be gone. He didn't want to be away from the families, which is he was. But he's gonna make sure that we had the things that we needed, and he took that as his responsibility as head of household. Certainly the coaching profession can be very nomadic. And I'm just wondering if it's a little bit like being part of the military where your dad's being stationed on your mom's being stationed someplace else, and you're having to move, but I remember Ronnie Lott, telling me because he grew up in a military family. And as I did as well. And he told me that, that versatility that adaptability was something that really helped him all throughout his life was at that way for you as well. David do pick up some strength because you had to be adaptable. There's no question. There's no question about it. And even as a teenager, I had the feeling like you know what you can drop me anywhere. And within a couple of days. I'll have my bearings and I'll meet a few people, and I'll be okay, so the, the exile of new things and meeting, new people that was gone by the wayside before I was a teenager in the we, we had moved so many times we've been so many different places. You know. And I realized in order for me to function, I had to learn how to adjust I had to learn how to sit in wherever I was and still maintain who I was. And I think my parents, give me that strong background of who you know who I am. But also saying, hey, you know, I'm going to need to adjust and in order to fit in to, to be successful wherever I'm going to be. Stanford, your dad and assistant coach under Jack christianson and Dennis Green is well, you end up. Would you have ended up anywhere else besides Stanford as a player? You know, I thought I had other options, I was steered very hardly ever seriously by my parents and a lot of people that are outside of, of my family that let me know if Stanford is an option for you. It's something that you can't pass up. I knew it was special because my dad has been there in the seventies, it always talked about Stanford. But when I started talking to other people, even people that either worked for other universities, that knew my dad or people that were prominent student athletes from other places that came to me and said, hey, you know, that's the school that I wanted to get into, if you get into that school, you can't pass it up. I had heard that from so many people that once I got admission, there was no saying there's no chance to go anyplace else. Dad David both at the professional level as far as a coach, and then at the college level, what was the difference in the way he approached the game if he approached it differently at all. Because one, you know, at the college level, I would think you're, you're still teaching a lot. Whereas at the coaching level you're kind of maintaining. A lot maybe teaching some as well. You know, my dad explains the best where, you know, college football. There's so much teaching but on the NFL, it's like graduate school teaching where you're not you're not going over some of the smaller details. Are you not going over like the grand stuff, but you're going to so many more small details, but it still teaching can you still have to walk into that room with knowledge that can be can be given to these professional athletes, because that's really what they wanna know. They went to the final day two jobs. They went to a couple of things that help them. Get one more contract help them. Of course trying to win a Super Bowl and help them maybe extend their career. But I think the way that my dad approached it because my dad, you know, grew up with a straight. A student is entire life. A great student and everything for him was academic. You know, let's, let's make sure if I'm gonna be fun of this classroom or front of this group of young men. I'm going to be the teacher. I'm gonna help them do their jobs. That much better. I think that's why he was so well respected in that profession because. The coaches that he worked with and the players that he coached really appreciated his approach to the game. You're the perfect person to ask this about because you have coached at the college level, very successfully, you've been an assistant coach in the National Football League does money change anything in the way the player when they graduate to the NFL level approach the game. And I say that because there are a little bit more mature. Maybe they've been drafted in the first round. David, they've gotten a big contract in everything. How coach -able are these guys when they get to the pro level? We'll get like talking about my dad. I think your protest a coach has to be one in the NFL to where you know what I e you don't work for me. I don't work for you. But at the same time you need the knowledge that I have, and I'm gonna put my time in to make sure that I can give you something a couple of nuggets week to help you do your job that much better and hope you get that next contract hopeless when games. Yes. And how maybe help you extend your, your career and make more money for your family. And there has to be that engagement I, I think when when guys go into the professional ranks as a coach. You can't have that same relationship with the college the college player because you're not going to walk in that room and say, do what I say because on the coach that just doesn't work, you know, as much as you like to say it would work it should work that doesn't work. But if you can walk in and say, you know what I have knowledge that you need, and we're going to work together to make you the best player, you can be, then you'll always be respected NFL rooms, what your first impression of Jim Harbaugh was? Because he got you to leave the pro ranks to come with him to San Diego. But what was it about him that attracted you? I before decided to take the job with the my flew out to fan Yego and spent data half with them. And it was the fact that this guy was determined to win. And when you're around us professional, a lot and you're out this business a lot, you bump into people that, you know, are going to win. Whatever whatever the competition is wherever the competition is, you know, you're a guy like Jim Harbaugh is gonna give it his all, and it infectious and you're you're around for a while. And you know, you know what cash this, I want to compete with this guy. I want this guy on my side. I want to be on his side. And that was the initial feeling got form. And, and it's proven to be true. I mean this man is a competitor. Twenty four seven everything he goes into he tries to be the best he wants to win and the teams in the people around them. They take on that personality. Knowing Bill Walsh. I did when I was the play by play announcer down. There is first time at Stanford. The one thing I liked about him was an I told him this, I said, you know, you're a master manipulator and usually manipulator has a negative connotation to it, but I said to him, you know how to push the buttons at the right time you do that very quietly, but Jim seems to have a style about him. It's my way or no way to a great degree. But is he is, as he had dapple to any great degree, David. I believe, so. And, you know, his personality so outward, and his persona along with his personality is so big so outward. The one thing I don't think he'd get from the outside is he's got his players backs and they feel that and you know whenever anything happens. He's going to defend the guys on his side. And when your head coach is one of the do that for you. I think you feel extra sense of you know what I have to do that for him. He's willing to go to the wall for me. He's willing to fight the bows, for me. I think you know, the full quarterback Alex Smith's out that as well as anybody course Alex was so beaten up in the press around the bay area being a barrier kid myself. You know, you're just so so bad for the guy because nobody had his back in the first thing, Jim Harbaugh day, when he walked in that building was, this is my starting quarterback. And I'm gonna back him and I'm not gonna let you talk about about him. You talk bad about them. I'm going to go after you, and that sense when you're. Quarterback in a telex Francisco, which has a great history quarterbacks. And so you know what here's the most powerful in the organization. He's got my back and yes, all the way Alex flourished, and grew under Jim. And you know the guys on his team. They feel that. And so, you know, for whatever else you might want to say about Jim, he's gonna compete like crazy. But also the players that play for him. He's going to defend them to the Hilton. I think that's special we got about forty seconds before we have to break. But David where did you develop your offensive philosophy because you were very successful down at San Diego. You've been successful everywhere. You've been where did that come from? It's at the roots in Bill washes west coast offense. No question about it. His teaching plan for, for three years. I met with them every off season when I became a coach, but I think it was really honed in when I when I started working for Jon Gruden took on a lot of the things that John taught the principles of the offense and there's no question about it. We still follow through with a lot of those things. I learned from John, David Shaw's with us, we're talking about his outstanding career. Head coach at Stanford University. We continue across the country and around the world on sports. Byline. It has been said that everyone has a book in them. But do you have the time or the ability to write your book, maybe you picked up some skills, or head alight experience, that you want to pass on in the form of a book to help, others, maybe you want to leave, and autobiography, for your family, or maybe you built a successful business and you wanna share your story at Dorrance publishing company? We have professional writers who can help turn your book idea into a finished manuscript quickly and affordably a Dorrance ghostwriter can provide as much or as little help, as you need to complete your book. You'll work directly with your ghost rider to finish your book faster than you ever could on your own. It's easy to become a published author. 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This is America's sports talk show sports. Byline USA. Here's Ron Baugh. David Shaw has joined us on sports byline head coach at Stanford. We'll talk about his program coming up a little bit later on. But David, let me go back to Bill Walsh for just a second. The one thing I've always said about Bill and I think you'll confirm this is that he always dictated the tempo of an opponent of a game, not react to the other teams temple am I correct in that observation? No question about it. And, you know, especially if you get picture, what's he like I said, I'm a bay area kid and you grew up in Bill Walsh's on pedestal. You know he's on a pedestal and then he walks in the room and he's your head coach and he's calling plays for you for the first month. He was the head coach at Stanford for for me. I think our entire team was in all of them. We couldn't speak to them. You know, we got nervous when he walked around. We didn't laugh at his jokes because we didn't offer supposed to laugh or not. You know, we were so intimidated. But as we got going, we realized we've got the smartest guy in college football. We've got we've gotten the, the quote unquote genius. And you got to the point where every Bill dictated everything he wanted at the temple of the game. He dictated where the ball was going to go, he manipulated the defense to make sure that they gave us what we needed from them. It was fascinating to watch him orchestrate that in a game setting, but then also in our own team to make sure he was different people, two different guys in order to make sure that they felt they had a place in it, and they knew. Their expectations and that he was gonna help them reach their goals. And it was it was fascinating. He was he was maestro. I have a good story for you. It was Stanford against USC the game was being played down in Los Angeles. I'm doing the play by play on the team. Bill brings a team out before the game goes through the warm ups goes back into the locker room and I gotta tell you David it started raining. And I mean really raining, and he always shared with me. His fifteen plays that he had scripted out before the game. And it made me look like I was saying, well, I think Bill will probably go with a screen pass here. So anyway, this game goes downhill real quick. It got so bad that in the third quarter they stopped allowing traveler to run around the field every time USC scored because they were thought that the horse would expire that it was a forty nine did nothing USC win. That's not many games that happened that way for Bill. But anyway, we used to do the post game show. It was post game show done about two o'clock in the morning. I'd pick out highlights I do the play by play again. Bill would do the color. Well at forty nine and nothing. David, there isn't much to talk about. So we start in and I said, you know, Brown for USA over the left side goes five ten fifteen twenty twenty five yards pulled out by Johnson of Stanford and Bill said, does well in the classroom. Stanford with the ball over the right side. And so, and so is pulled down for a six yard laws and Bill would say comes from a good family. This goes on for. He did have that capability of motivating his players. How did he do that? You know the before you can motivate a player and we talk about this on our staff before you can motivate a player before you can coach player before you can raise your voice at a player, two things you have to have. Once you have to know that player, you have to take the time to understand what makes them tick. But then you have to establish a relationship with them so that when you do push director or cajole, or however you coach them, you've built that relationship. So you build some trust. Bill Bill was was it was a master. And, and I sometimes I talk about the, the blockbuster bowl against Penn State, and we're going to play Penn State and before we ever get on plane. You know it was our first big bowl game guys are really giddy. And, and we probably were not in the right mental frame to go play that game. But before we got on the plane built gathered team up, and he just said, you know what I just found this out. I don't know if I should even tell you guys. But, you know, Penn State picked you guys for this game, you know, coach Paterno and the Penn State people. We're trying to decide who they should play in this ball game and they picked you. And in that conversation with the team, he turned us from bunch of guys that were just getting happy to be there to fill team that felt disrespected team that felt like hey, you know what? They're trying to pick us so they can beat us. So we wanted a game we'd be twenty four three and I didn't find out until almost ten or fifteen years later, that Bill just made that up, you know, it was just a farce, but he knew he knew what it would take to motivate that team and get us from a team that was just happy to be there team those frothing at the mouth to play our best game. And Bill could do that on a team level on an offense level or an individual player by player level, because he knew what made people take, you know, there are two other people in sports that remind me of what you just said. One was Mohammed Ali, who really had to have controversy around him, which he created most of the time in order to get his best effort, and the other was Michael, Jordan, and Larry Bird used to do the same thing. I mean he would say, hey, so and so said this about us and, and. Every I'll I had one PS two that David is is that I talked to Joe Paterno after that bowl game. And he said to me, this will be the last time we ever get beat sideline to sideline with speed because you guys just took them apart. There was a good game. Let me talk a little bit about today with Stanford, you have developed a wonderful program carrying it on. And when I take a look at people certainly like Andrew, lock, and Toby Gerhart, and others. You were always adaptable, and you could do the Xs and os, and you've proven that no, no no doubt about that. But tell me how you brought this squad together over the years and kept the consistency going at Stanford. You know, the first thing I'll say is one thing that has not changed from when Kotaro took over we don't take a single player on our team is not tough. They need to be physically tough and into be mentally, tough, and emotionally tough. And, and we get through that through the recruiting process. So that, that's I feel mostly a bunch of tough kids, but from a coaching staff standpoint as long as we make everything based on competition. We don't play favorites. You know, we let these guys compete for everything. But I think one of the things we do also is, I think some places just compete to be starters, and see who the stars are going to be we compete for playing time. So even if a guy's not a starter. He's the fourth string running back if he can do something to help us win a game. We're gonna play him. So we get to the point. We play a lot of guys and of course the game in all three phases. And I think you feel that because so many guys are end of the game because they know it some point they're going to have an opportunity to impact the game. Third tackle fourth tackle third string receiver. String receiver four string running back. Those guys are getting in at vital times. The game and helped us win game. So I think we have a commodity as well as an understanding of I, I'm gonna have my role, not just during the week practice. I'm gonna have a game day role and I can help team win. I think you feel that when you watch our team play. One of the things Bill also told me David was that because of the nature of the student athlete that they have at Stanford in the academic success of Stanford that he could do things scheme wise, offense and defense of -ly that a lot of other schools probably could not. And I know you're playbook has been very, very large. Have you found that to be the case? Do you do you coach because the academic capabilities of your athletes as well? I do believe we can. I think we give our guys allow scheme, I think in spring and training camp. Sometimes we overdo it just to see where that line is worth that tipping point to where we can't give him anymore, and then we back off that line. But I think, especially when we can go up to the line of scrimmage with three or four different play calls from the huddle and everybody be on the same page. I think that's rare. I don't think a lot of places college or the NFL Kindy with have eleven guys on the offensive side to say, hey, we're gonna call four plays in the huddle be ready for any of those four or defensively to go on a game plan and change things week to week on that we do on defense. It's still have eleven guys knowing exactly what they're doing. I think this is one of the few places that you can do that. Thing I want to touch on before I let you lose in two thousand twelve Stanford her in the AFC as academic achievement award after leading the country with a one hundred percent graduation success rate for that year becoming the first program ever to win both the award at a BCS bowl game in the same season. Why can't that be duplicated across the board in college football? Honestly, because I believe that people don't think you can be, and that's the worst pace to start in the worst places stars. We can't achieve it. So we're not going to try. I think it's a I think we can do it as, as a college football universe. If we can stay on top of our kids, and give them high standards academically and keep them on pace to graduate and still demand that it'd be great football players right now. Everybody is looking for a handout. They want things to be easier. It doesn't have to be to be easy, but it's also not difficult. If not impossible, you know, you can go to school gig graduate on time in four years, and play, great football. And get ready to go play in the NFL. And we've proven that year after year after year that it can be done. I would love seat happen. More places in Stanford. Yeah, I'm gonna touch on that too, because colleges are they kind of shortchanging the athlete a little bit by not having that proper attitude? You just talked about David. I think when you go into it, and not thinking that it can be done. You kinda give yourselves out you give your team out. You give young man out fair. You know what we know it's really hard. So, you know, if you don't graduate on time, we understand, but keep playing great football, and I think that's doing service to the young man and his family think when you when a when a when a when a family gives me a young man. That's the things I tell them, I said, I'm going to keep you on course before your graduation. And I'll make sure you play the best football that you can play everything else is up to you. You know, but, but we can make sure those two things happen. And it's not it's not impossible. You're not going to go home every single day dragging yourself to bed, it's about. It's about making sure that your time, destruction properly, and make sure that your attention is where it needs to be and not be distracted by other things that can pull you away from those two things. But our team knows I start this in most of the guys finish the sentence for me do things we're going to be great Stanford, or we're gonna play great football. And we're gonna graduate one final question in about twenty seconds, cooling common sideline as you look when I watch on TV. Yes. Yes, I, it's, it's a disease. I've been this way for a long time. I don't do the emotional ups and downs. I'm very pragmatic. I'm very systematic as a human being a very methodical when great things happen. All I say to myself, okay, what's next I, I typically, don't celebrate. I, I get flak from some of the guys sometimes. But when we score touchdown I say okay, let's kick it up thinking about the next series already. And that's just kinda how I am I respect you so much not only for your success. But the person that you are as well. And I know that your dad is proud of you. I know Bill Walsh's proud of you and also Jim Harbaugh's. Well, take care, my friend. You're welcome back here anytime on sports byline. Thanks a lot. I really appreciate it. David Shaw head football coach at Stanford and what a job he has done building and continuing the legacy of that university, we continue on sports byline. I've recently discovered the powerful health benefits of CB the oil, I have been using new leaf natural CBD oil for some time now. And I love it. CBD oil is non intoxicating. What make which makes it ideal for people like me? I want the health benefits of cannabinoid but I don't smoke weed. I never will smoke weed mind altering effects. I do not need. CBD is nontoxic has potent pain relieving and his anti inflammatory with its properties as well. And that's why the brand I trust the Moses newly naturals, newly naturals is the highest quality CBD oil on the market one hundred percent organic highly concentrated. No additives, grown in the US. The only ingredient is him it is pure and simple, Goto, new leave naturals dot com. 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Gape invented skin safe technology that won't Nick or snag Mars, or Uranus, which hurts, like the dickens, when Jupiter ascends order your perfect package two point. Oh, featuring all the right tools for the jewels and get twenty percents off plus free shipping and a free travel bag Papa were demand scape dot com and enter promo code USA for twenty percents off plus free shipping and free travel bag, manscaping dot com, promo code. USA that's manscaping dot com. Promo code USA. This is America's sports talk show, sports, byline USA. Here's Ron bar. Willie Shaw joins us on sports byline, the former college cornerback in NFL. Coach's son is Stanford head coach David, Sean. He was an all conference cornerback at the university of New Mexico and he coach for a total of fourteen teams with the longest NFL stints occurring with the Minnesota Vikings. And also, the Detroit Lions I've always thought Willie that it takes a special mindset to be able to be a coach Mike, correct in that observation. And if so what is that mindset or you're very correct in that? And that says that it, it does take a special mindset, it takes a while to develop that might have happened. Within you. But it takes a number of years situations before that component develops. And, you know, after about five years, and you get in that mindset, that's kind of what keeps your career movement along a lot of coaches that get in the profession and within five years of having reached that much said it's, it's tough on form of stay in the profession after that. But it makes a lot easier if you do is it like everything else, it becomes a rhythm type of thing then Willie. Yes. And it doesn't mean you just stop developing, but you, you, you have that mindset, and you do keep learning over the years, but. You, you have a tacit to store more and more information because so many things happen in the game. Really doesn't seem to just see brawls in the goes kind of like a circle, I remember situation out there at one time what the same it was Williams. And we had a young coach. I'll just defense reported in there and he did a lot of film breakdown for and use a young coach coming up through the night. And he came off one time. He said coach you gotta see this is something. You know, he's breaking when the team we've been a play. This is something I've never seen before this doing something totally brand new. There's nothing new in this game. Everything kinda goes around the circle. There's no you gotta come. See this. Coach, don't come say. What is it? You're saying in told me what they were doing is no, that's not new. It's just a sixteen years ago when this was happening in the lead. You still nice school, so you don't want to feel there is nothing new, but you gotta know that in the profession. And you got to remember, things have happened. So that when it goes back down, you have a good idea about what it is. And how to how to attack it and, and what went how it fits trying to tack, you. What is it the players look for in a coach, I most players on the NFL, upper look for coach that they can trust and understand, more. That's when the go because the thanks I try their stats players. We both have a career in you, and I work together. Compass far more than either one of us will ever convicts. We're gonna park kind of what that means is, is you can some coaches that'll get up on a podium and says, okay, here it is. Here's what here's what we're going to happen. And there's no input from you guys. And this is my my defense and this is my offense. And, and here's where it's going to go. Well, what happens is the player figuring out right away. Well all he cares about his career. It really care about my career we both have to and it can happen the same way with players through, they can get all about themselves and not understand that the coaches coach that he's working with have the career to. But when they come together and that you understand that because coaches UV older than the player of more mature in the player and understanding season. So what he has to play another status. I know you have a career wise and both working together can help each other's career and then in the Kuta, if you come from a standpoint like you say to the player to all time, I don't expect anybody to come out on Sunday afternoon. If giving it all. Movies shot coats understand. They come to stick come. See you play. And it's up to me as a coach enough working together to you in the best position to do the best for your cooler. And, and you become the best player, you can be. Observed over the years is that when a player gets drafted in the first round gets a lot of money. And they've gotten a lot of accolades when they were in college. Sometimes they think well hey, I can play this game, and they don't understand that they have to prove themselves again, at the next level and are they as coach -able? I mean, is it harder to coach a kid that comes in with a big rip? It's hard to coach all players. Come in convincing for sure. They don't they don't understand how to get ready for the NFL they so no matter what you tell them. And how you try to help them a little bit now. I'll see them all they know how to do reading, how to play college football, huge Chazan between our football and pro football, and it takes and then they'll come in China camp. And they think they're ready. But like I said they spent three months getting ready for what they know what's college football and then they get into the NFL, and then it's low, this is not what I thought it would be. It's what most limit tapes them get into that first year and seeing an off season after they've been through that twenty game season helping appreciation getting. They understand what it takes to get rid of the one, they're smart enough, and so the next off season they understand what it is. They have to do and they all seem to get ready for for pro football. The happens on every level players that, that all. High school. They go to college and they spend the off season. Trying to get ready for college football. But they don't know anything about college football. You know they get ready to do. They get they get into the routine, and they really getting ready to play high school football and it's not enough. And then they learned after that, first freshman sophomore year that what it takes all season to get ready for that level of all the same thing happen. For rookies coming into the NFL another thing too. Is that college players? I assume do not study much game film. I know in talking to Darryl green and also Ronnie Lott at one time, they said they did not know how to watch game film per se until they got into the National Football League. And then the other thing I've observed is that if you've got a guy that's a senior in college. He may be going up against a sophomore or junior. But when you get into the National Football League you may have a guy that's a wide receiver who's been in the league for seven eight years, and you're just a rookie and that, that, that I guess breach between the two. How do you how do you close that? Both things you send a very true Dallas, one of the things I was talking about. They've never had the study film not only how much fill, but the way they studied in hyphen college has nothing to do relationship through how they're going to have to how much film enough study at how they're going to have to study them and benefit. And I was one of the things I was talking about in the off season. Not just physically mentally how to prepare for for Carson football from college football to pro football. And the other thing is it's actually what you're saying, but only to a higher degree when you play college football, you may have people you play against there may be two three or starters in in college football. And then I'll send you go to NFL. You've got a guy who's miss- starting at pro football for eight or nine years. So you so mentally and you wave behind that curve. That's an NFL because there's no you know, the guys you're plan against been playing football anywhere from four to five six seventy years. Which have they don't play? They'll start playing on college football. But you got a guy who is mature p probably has a family. He has Bill these, these far superior to you on the middle basis than anything ever. He's got more going for him in the league. It got more responsibility. He's matured. And that's a big difference. Also you're gonna love this. I talked to David and I said, David, when did you realize what your dad did for a living? And apparently you were at Arizona state at the time and he said he told players what to do and they listen to. Freshly at that time us, you know, when I got to go said he was old enough and more tuned to what what's going on around him when he came to practice. When did you realize that he had the instincts in the makings for good coach? Oh way before he realized I'm sure what happens is, is. It's like any profession for apple most coaches smoke guys that things are going to be a coach. They get they get almost done with college or the done with college twenty two years old. And then it hits their mind that, well maybe I can throughout what I'd like to be a coach out what it is to be a coach. Exactly what you're saying a coach's son at twenty two years old has been allowed coaching and understand. What's going on for twenty two years? That's why coaches sons happened huge advantage over everybody else's trying to be coast. But that's not just the coaching profession. Any profession kid, the young man, who's grown up under what is dad does? He's twenty four seven for twenty two years when he gets to be a senior college graduates in college. So that's a huge advantage. He's already laid the groundwork for twenty two years. He knows exactly like you said, you know exactly what it takes the pitfalls the ends and outs about coaching because he's lived the twenty four seven just like his dad. Aside from being able to coach the games, the ex and the let's put that aside because obviously David's record shows. He's been successful there, but I think and I may be wrong about this. But I think one of his greatest attributes is the way he stays stove, so stoic and steady on the sideline. And I think that when you're the captain on the bridge of the ship, and your players see how you're not panicking when there's been a fumble or an interception. And how consistent you are in the way you manage the game that gives them a lot of confidence in my right about David on that. Anytime you're working with people, and there are lounging, and they, they're tuned to you, your how you carry yourself. How you come up with answers, what's going on? When when the pressure's on does transfer over to the people that are allowed to it said that vision that. Not only see, you know what's hit what's, what's happening right now. But has a vision to see what, what should be happened in this situation. I've been in the solution. What's going on down the road, you know, and a lot of times leadership is you have the vision, and the people alerted, you can't see that vision accepts that you're. You might die. So they, they understand where you at stand what you need. And by Houston com, keeps them calm and keeps the task at hand more relative to what they need to do when you start panicking. It's, it's hard to get the people on Utah understand what you want, and they start to panic. And then nobody when they'd be successful, one of the hardest things about sports and coaching as well. You're only as good as your last game. And I don't know that most people live in an environment, or a work atmosphere like that. How hard is it for the coach to, to deal with that? You can't. You can't. You gotta let that go can't think about the last play. You can't think about the left game. You can't think about last season. You've got to keep focused on right now. And the future. What's ahead of me? If soon as you start letting what happened on at left play. It goes back to what we're just talking about. You panic a little bit you. If you don't stay focus you. Don't come up with answers because you you've you've always lost focus. You've lost confident hang example, would be. I just posted a place we had an coordinator, and we had a defensive game four nine. This was super fantastic gains at all. I heard from the next week as we've got the greatest defensive coaches in the country. Boy, these are super two weeks later. We lost. We didn't play quite a bit on defense. We made some mistakes, and you don't the headlines worth where do we? These coaching where do they come up? I mean, there's always two weeks later, you can't you can't let that be applauded what you're doing what you're thinking. You just gotta keep focus because it's a fickle game. It's a really tough profession, and it's you and you're not going to be very good. If you think you worry about that last play when the when the cornerback gut BP because he did something wrong. And, you know, he knows how to do it better. You can't think about that. You gotta think about what's next. What's next, what's that? We've got about a minute left Willie. When you think back on your long career. Is there any particular moment that you've either witnessed or been involved with the kind of stays with you today that makes Willie Shaw smile when he thinks about it? San Diego Chargers. And we went onto visit and we grew pick the take laughing visit and we play Pittsburgh in the AFC championship game. We were hit seventeen seventeen thirteen and big up first and goal on our nine yard line who asked you a couple of minutes of the game, then we stopped them four straight times, and went to the Super Bowl. We limit is ship. That's. Real well. Plays game where we stop and four times. The real Super Bowl in about twenty seconds is David a perfectionist. To be the success on the level heath having success on, you almost have to be, but he doesn't eat this perfection that he keeps within himself. He knows letting stride and to do spy into, and he keeps that in mind. You might not hit that goal all the time, but he always shooting for that goal. And he learns from every situation. This has been a fascinating conversation. I thank you for it willy, and giving us insight into your very successful son, and also about your career about being a coach because it's something I've always wanted to talk about with someone who was a successful coach like yourself. Thank you willy. Take care, come back again business, thank you very much Willie Shaw with us. Former college cornerback NFL coach and his son is Stanford head coach David Shaw, we continue with more of you and America's sports talk show. Rebuild or replace transmission. 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We specialize in credit cards, retail store cards and medical bills. One simple call is all it takes to get the ball rolling to a debt free life, stop living with debt and start living your dreams. Call the debt helpline now, eight hundred nine five seven six oh six three eight hundred nine five seven six zero six three eight hundred nine five seven six oh six three that's eight hundred nine. Nine five seven sixty sixty three. Hi, I'm Dr Robert Clapper. Chief of orthopedic surgery at cedars Sinai Medical group in Los Angeles, California, dedicated to your health, your life, and your sports, as a weekend warrior, you know about sports injuries and pain exercises important element in keeping your body's core in good shape to minimize sports injuries. But when you are in pain, there is one product that I recommend to my patients, and that is blue gel blue consists of proprietary formula developed specifically for the treatment of inflammation, and general muscle aches, and strains, I recommend blue for my patients, coping with hip and knee pain before surgery, especially bursitis and tendinitis. Give Lugo try call one eight eight eight three three zero zero one two three and you'll receive a one week supply of blue absolutely free. The makers of blue goo are even paying the shipping. The number again is one eight eight eight three three zero zero one two three. If you want more information on blue visit online at WWW dot du dot com. Now available. At select the big five stores near you. This is America's sports talk show sports. Byline USA, here's Ron bar. We talk football this hour. Both NFL football in college football with the son and father the son being David Shaw, the head football coach at Stanford. And of course he was also an assistant coach in the National Football League for Philadelphia Oakland. And the Baltimore Ravens and he played for the Stanford cardinals back in the nineties as he was coached by Dennis Green and Bill Walsh, and Willie Shaw, the former college cornerback in NFL coach, he coached fourteen different teams with his longest NFL stints occurring with the Minnesota Vikings on two separate occasions. And also with the Detroit Lions hope you enjoyed it. And also be sure to check us out on our website. You can find that at sports, byline dot com. I'm Ron bar. Thanks for being a part of America's sports talk show reeks of speed and motor heads. It's Keti sergeant would speed freaks Fisher to catch crash. Gladys statman and yours truly every Sunday night, seven tonight Pacific, Ted midnight eastern pets rights feed freaks of the fort's byline radio network. You're listening to heartland newsfeed radio. Now our live twenty four seven heartland newsfeed dot com. This is the liberty your daily source for Liberty News and activists updates produced in partnership with as news and listeners like you online. Liberty beat dot news dot news. I'm mic Merle. With your latest edition of the liberty gold is trading at one thousand three hundred forty one dollars silver at fifteen dollars in bitcoin is trading around eight thousand forty one dollars. Today's prices are brought to you by ino- scale takeoff with manage go out looking for a safe secure way to store your important byles online. Let Enos Gail handle it for you. Their high availability cloud servers are the perfect solution for clients needing one or more secure scalable. Servers with built in hardware fell over protection for details. See them online. It didn't know scale dot net in the news, the federal government accountability office has issued an update to its 2016 report on the FBI's use of facial recognition, the takeaway, which they also shared during. A congressional house oversight committee hearing the FBI now has access to six hundred forty one million photos including driver's license and ID photos, but it's still refuses to assess the accuracy of it systems activists post reports that the facial analysis comparison evaluation services unit not only has access to FBI's, next generation identification face working nation database of nearly thirty million civil and criminal mugshot photos. It also has access to the State Department's visa and passport databases. The FBI has done little in the last three years to make sure that it search results are accurate. According to the new report mill liberty is sponsored in part by brave botanical 's high-quality, crate him in CBD at reasonable prices with excellent customer service. Brave botanical is activist owned and mission driven and believe so strongly in the power of crate him. They're giving it away for free. Just go to free. Ounce of create them dot com for a free crate him delivered to your door. Just pay shipping. That's free. Crate him dot com. This is the latest edition of the liberty. Find us online at liberty dot news and doesn't LS dot news. Your news now continues metropolitan police in London have arrested for teenagers involved in a reputable attack on two women who were left bloodied and hospitalized after being taunted for their sexuality the mind, unleash reports the four males age fifteen and eighteen or being questioned on suspicion of robbery and aggravated grievous bodily harm or severe assault at the Cording to a statement by the police Melanie gaming, an a twenty eight year old Ryanair stewardess from Uruguay shared a photo on Facebook of herself, and her girlfriend, Chris, after they were assaulted Bank group of men who began shouting at them in throwing coins. The couple had just gone on a date in Camden, and will returning home early on may thirtieth when the four men began demanding they kiss each other in front of them when the to refuse to share an intimate moment for the entertainment of the. Hooligans the young men and teens beat them leaving them with serious facial injuries before also stealing their belongings, hate crimes on the mass transportation network of the UK have doubled over the past five years, according to British transport police data. In what would be the first of its kind, a Louisiana woman allegedly died from an overdose after vaping, a large amount of cannabis oil, the mind unleashed, citing the New Orleans advocate reports that the otherwise healthy thirty nine year old collapsed and died in her place apartment in February due to high levels of THC, the main psychoactive compound in cannabis, that's according to Saint John Baptist Peres corner Christie money. They woman had healthy organs, and no symptoms of illness, or elevated, traces of alcohol and drugs in her body, while THC can cause heart palpitations and extreme anxiety and some years, the federally funded National Institute of drug abuse has said that no recorded deaths have been attributable to marijuana overdose. Various experts also cast doubt on the corners claims describing his conclusion as highly unlikely, a former senior policy advisor at the White House office of national drug control policy noted that if such overdoses. Possible the growing amounts of cannabis consumption in the US would have likewise, risen support for the liberty comes from the conscious resistance network. Featuring videos news reports articles from a spiritual anarchist perspective, experience the conscious resistance at the conscious resistance dot com. How would you like to have your business on the liberty beat? You can just into Email, the liberty beat at SNL S dot news for details. This is the liberty beat produced in partnership with SNL as news in listeners like you. The liberty is online at liberty, beat dot news dot news. I'm McMurdo reporting for the liberty be reminding you spread liberty with a smile orcas trusted resource for back braces. If you're sixty five or older and suffering from back pain you may qualify to receive an advanced pain relieving back brace at little or no cost to you. Many people are now using our pain, relieving back brace is an alternative to surgery, or harmful medications, and experience pain relief that they haven't felt in years till night, you're back pain turned into something worse. Remember, if you qualify for no money out of pocket. There's nothing to lose an only real pain relief to gain are friendly team of experts will handle all paperwork, and we'll deliver it for free. Eight hundred five zero seven eleven forty eight. Your pain, relieving back brace may be covered by Medicare. Bear little or no cost to you. 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He is the author of satchel, dizzy and rapid Robert, the wild saga of interracial baseball before Jackie Robinson, and before Jackie Robinson integrated baseball back in one thousand nine hundred eighty seven black and white ball players at been playing against one another for decades. Even on rare occasions playing with each other. And of course, that was during the barnstorming tours that the black and the white teams would make all over this country. It is a very interesting history lesson. So we're ready to crank it up Tim Wendel coming your way next on sports. Byline. You'll do it right. To grow the fest garden came lows doesn't right to with savings on miracle grow potting mix of fertilizer to help you get growing in bro. Plants twice as big versus unfed plants pick up a fifty court bag now for just ten dollars. Plus, get funding to three to court vegetables and herbs three ten dollars for garden. That's worthy of showing off to it right for less start with Lowe's. 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So when you've got places to go and people to see count on Walgreen's, every day to get expert diabetes advice, twenty four seven find all major brands of testing supplies like Walgreens, true Metrix, in store and online and download tools to help you stay on track like our five star mobile app with pill reminder at Walgreens, we're your diabetes. Go to stop by and talk to your pharmacist today. Walgreen's, trusted since one thousand nine hundred one. This is America sports, talk show. Sports byline USA. Here's Ron Baugh. Nice to have Tim Wendel. Join us on sports byline. He's the author of many books, also the founding editor of USA today. Baseball weekly, and his latest effort is a book called, heat, the secret history of the fastball, and the improbable search for the fastest pitcher of all time, what the heck motivated you to write this one. I was down actually in Cuba. One of the trips made down there for a couple of projects, I was doing and, and we were in the old stadium at Havana, one night, and all of a sudden, we had this big debate and Cuba of all places about who is the fastest pitcher of all time, and I remember walking away that evening going, this is trans transcend, the cultures and language and everything. Then maybe that's something to pursue. And that was really the beginning of high heat. Where do you start when you do something like this? I mean what type of investigation did you come up with well, pretty much your third Cooperstown at the hall of fame? They got a they have a great research library. But what I needed to the, the thing I needed to move off pretty soon. Ron was that wasn't going to find any holy grail of math here or staff, or analysis in a sense what I needed to do is talk to the scouts, talk to the old timers and really start to look at the stories of these epoch fireballer that just go back through time. And it's uncanny. Once you start to look at it almost every generation has at least one, probably a couple guys that can throw really, really hard. You know, wall to Johnson, the feller to Ryan Colfax, Colfax, Ryan, etc. And once you kind of realized it was a brotherhood, then I could start getting into the story and start comparing, you know, account start comparing what these guys. Had to go through. Is there a commonality among pitchers that throw hard and throw fast? There's no commonality in height and weight. And I think that's one of the things that attracted me to the project early on. You could stand up all these guys, Ron like in a police lineup and there'd be really no correlation and heightened wait. I mean you've got Walter Johnson and Randy Johnson. And then you got the smaller guys like lint, succumb and Billy Wagner, et cetera. But one of the things that does draw them together is all of them struggled. At some point, all of them came to their pervert, Buell crossroads and you know, in, in the road, and you're gonna make it or not, and almost half the guys in high heat. I'm talking guys like Steve del cows. Aimless rucci. They didn't really make it. They, they were more cursed by this gift of a fastball. And, and they were unable to turn it into a blessing like feller, did her Nolan Ryan or eventually sandy Colfax. It's one thing to be able to throw hard. It's another thing to be able to throw hard across the plate. Right. Tim tonight thing. Thing. I think Ryan summed up the best. He said, yes, it's one thing to throw hard. It's one thing to throw a cross the plate. It's another thing to throw the pitch. You need to throw at the moment you need to throw it. And at that point, it gets much more into a mental game and really what you're able to do in the spotlight of the mound at that point in time. And I'm amazed at the guys who struggled at some point in their career with that. I mean Walter Johnson did Nolan Ryan almost left the game? He was so frustrated with his inability to do right by this gift of having an epoch fastball. So almost everybody struggles with it at some point, and the ones that make the hall of fame, the ones that we tend to hear about through the ages of the ones that able to make this leap of faith, somehow in their own mind seems like what you're saying is they become captured by their fastball. Yeah. The become captured. And I think they may me honor it they, they know what to do right by and Mamie that seeking out a really good pitching coach. Or falling in with a good group like Ryan, did he you know he after the trade from the Mets, he ends up with Tom Morgan and Jeff tour. Borgo with the angels of the perfect thing for him then you have a guy like sandy Colfax who's been trying to throw the ball, literally through a wall for about the first six years of his career, and finally one day in spring training his catcher norm. Sherry comes out to him and says, just take a little bit off it and just hit my glove. And all of a sudden a light bulb goes off, and send the we have this hall of fame career that sandy Koufax ended up compiling the kind of interesting because I've often asked pitchers this question, do you remember when you went from being thrower to being a pitcher now on the title of your book? You say the improbable search for the fastest pitcher of all time a pitcher is different from a hard thrower. Yes. Exactly. And I think it's more again Ryan maybe some that up the best saying, I'm making the pitch. I know have to make at this particular moment. And it's. Funny. Once these guys step into that rarified air once they're able to do that under pressure. Suddenly, all of them start to share kind of this brotherhood, one of one of the stories ahead was Tim linzie. Come really does not know you know, a ton of baseball history. But you get him talking about it that funky motion he has. And he goes, well, there's a little bit of Colfax and here's a little bit of Ryan and one of the guys who really fallen in love with Tim linzie come is Bob feller. And in some ways, because Lindsey doesn't ice, his arm that much feller didn't really is is arm. Fellers great sane was always that's for drinks. And somehow now you know they're separated by almost a half century. And they, they realize they're compadres in this situation. They're both epoch fireball who know what to do when the situation requires. With us. The name of his great book is called high heat. And I'm just wondering as they break down. What is it that amazes them the most about their ability to throw the ball with such velocity that they, they don't see any correlation at times? And I'm saying almost everybody here between five Thatcher muscle. Whatever it may be. And I think that's the thing that even captivates us as fans and watchers of baseball, it's really like some God, given talent or something came when you're able to throw very hard on the rest of you guys. I'm sorry, you're not going to be able to and the interviews with Ryan had with feller that ahead, even with some of the contemporary guys like Wagner, and Linda come. That's the thing that even they just can't wrap their mind totally around. It's like why me, why was I singled out, and in the, the amount of pressure? But that comes with that realization. Is unbelievable. And knowing like I say the ones that honor this gift, the ones who were saying, okay, I'm going to take this and do the best I can do. How much does mechanics play into their ability to throw the ball at the speed. They do it plays a huge amount. I think in, in position in the ball and location. But, you know, you look at a guy like Steve though, hausky some people go, okay who Steve doco ski, have you ever saw the movie bull Durham, that's the Tim Robbins character that's nuclear louche. But unlike nuke Steve doco ski was never called up to the big league almost all the other things that happened in bull Durham beating the mascot hitting the announcer's booth. Excetera happened to Steve, as he told me years later. He said everything pretty much happened. Except I didn't get that lovely lady. Meaning Susan serandon, but even they'll hausky mechanically would be all over the board. But the velocity was always there. One of the interesting things about they'll Kathy. Was he won miss, I decide on the play he would miss up and down his ball. Hit such spin such a law city on it that the catchers have time head the leap up the catch it when he was getting really wild even going back the high school, I'm going to make this statement of I'm wrong about a police correct me Tim, but I've always found pretty much in. This is a generality but pretty much speaking that the ones that can row throw really hard have a loose. Screw. And what I mean by that. I think about Ryan Durham, and, you know, the story about ride Durham those coke bottle thick glasses. He threw the ball, you know, a ton, but he always managed when he was warming up every inning to throw one high on the backstop, so that the batter's that were coming up that any wait a minute. I'm not I'm not digging in. And of course you remember the all star game with Randy Johnson, pitching, and who was it? That was stepped in and bailed out. Said this stuff. Messages. And both of those both of those situations what those guys are doing. It's funny saying a screw loose. It's you know we've gotta go back sometime now. But before Walter Johnson, really made it I guess, okay, they have an epoch fireballer on your team. A lot of big league teams granted we're back in the old days. But a lot of big league teams are very wary of a fireball pitcher because they kind of the unspoken rule was well I can't control him on the mound. And he's just as crazy once he gets off the mound. So for a while, you know, I it was like pretty much well they can throw hard but I really don't want that much to do with them. Is there a fear that if they were throwing batting practice or something like that they may her one of their own teammates? Well, certainly that's kind of the dark side of, of, of high heat in a way, I think we're all captivated by how hard somebody can throw. I can take, you know, somebody who's maybe not that big a fan of the ball game tonight. And they. Well, look how fast at one guy's throwing, but as we can, you know seen through time with right Chapman, Tony can make layer. Oh, every now and then there's certainly a dark side to things and thankfully, the Equipment's gotten better, but the fastball can still bite to. We got about thirty seconds before we have to break, but the fear that they might hurt somebody and really hurt them the batter does that ever factor into? Or do they have to keep that out of their thinking, in order to be effective? Thinking, ironically, one of the guys who's made me one of the fastest of all time. Walter Johnson, he, he was he had nightmares about that. And ironically tie, cobs, one of the guys who figured it out tie cups, that this guy says freida hitting me as I am of getting hit by him. So what taika do crowded? The plate on Johnson. This. We're talking about his book, I want you to check this book out, whether you're a baseball fan or not, because it's an interesting read. It's called high heat, the secret history of the fastball in the improbable search for the fastest pitcher of all time, we continue with more of you and sports. Byline. It has been said that everyone has a book in them. But you have the time or the ability to write your book, maybe you picked up some skills, or head a life experience, that you want to pass on in the form of a book to help others. Maybe you wanna leave autobiography for your family, or maybe you built a successful business, and you want to share your story at Dorrance publishing company. We have professional writers who can help turn your book idea into a finished manuscript quickly and affordably a Dorrance ghost writer can provide as much or as little help, as you need to complete your book. You'll work directly with your ghost rider to finish your book faster than you ever could on your own. It's easy to become a published author. 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Another minute to see if you may qualify for your social security disability benefits called clinical disability group at eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one for your free case evaluation, that's eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one eight hundred five nine three seven four nine one. Call now. This is America's sports talk show sports. Byline USA. Here's ron. Author Tim Wendel has joined us sports byline. And again, if you're interested in baseball and want to follow this question about the hardest thrower, the person that throws the fast as fast ball, then you want to check out, high heat what surprised you the most in doing your research for this book. Crown often one, the delights, I have about writing books is who's going to surprise you? Okay. Who's who somebody kind of knew about? But she didn't really know the whole story and probably one of the guys who fell into that category, for me, and writing high heat with Steve Doke hausky again, the, the modern day, new clues character. I, I knew he had not made the major leagues. I knew had you know, head this tragic situation pretty much where he hurt his arm the afternoon after he got fitted for big league uniform in the early sixties. He was going to go up a Weaver was very much in his corner, what I didn't know was the rest of the Steve bilko ski story how we became a migrant worker after his baseball career frittered out how he became an alcoholic how it became a homeless person and L A. And then ironically, how his kind of beat up hometown of New Britain, Connecticut, which is seen much better times, really saved them. His family and his best friends brought him back to New Britain. He's living there. Now his mind is clearing up. He's getting much much healthier and better. And ironically, I was just up in New Britain, a couple of weeks ago, did a reading there at the local university and just before I started the read from high heat about a half a dozen older guys came in and sat down on the front row. And I recognize several them is the former high school teammates, and I just kind of smiled and nodded to them, and I said, why I think we're going to change things up. We're going to read nothing but Steve Delk hausky tonight. Richard fall into that same category. Very much. I think again. There's a certain tragic element to a lot of these guys where you'd think they haven't made and then something happens and things go. Downhill pretty quick. I mean in the cases Tisdale cow, ski, it was, you know, a long running downhill slide so to speak, of course, which Richard it was over, you know, tragically in, in just a couple weeks, months. I mean here he is complaining that he's feeling tired here. He is complaining doesn't feel right unfortunate. What the big league team is telling them. Okay. Just keep going out. It looking good. You're throwing fine. And then, of course he has a stroke, and is never the same pitcher again. Gun, which is something that's been used maybe for twenty twenty-five years has that become a trap for these pitchers that like the throw hard. A trap, I think for everybody run. I think it's become a trap for the pitchers because they then they overthrow maybe when they shouldn't I mean, we've seen a couple of instance, even these guys it, it big league parks, throwing hard looking around looking at the Jumbotron going. Yeah. Okay. Hit on or whatever it was. And then they're wondering why their arms hurting the next day. I think it's also hurt teams. And because it's made it very difficult to judge talent when I was riding high heat I was down in Durham, North Carolina because one of the guys that was fun with David price with their point was in AAA ball before it got called up for the raise and I'm sitting with the scouts one night. A loves it with the scouts, a lot of great stories, and they're all using the same make of radar gun in one point somebody through pretty hard. And I just said, what do we got for that? And one guy says eighty nine somebody says ninety one some of his eighty eight and I'm going, how can this be we're sitting together and you guys have totally different, you know readings you know grant. Within a range, but they're not totally nailed down. So, I think in a lot of ways the Reiter, gr- gun, we're always looking for this definitive, answer, if anything the radar gun, I think, in the last fifteen twenty years just muddied the waters even more. Also believe it's made it harder to evaluate pitchers in what I mean by that. Is that certainly they are not well developed when they're either in high school or in college? But the one thing you can point to is that statistic of, hey, this guy through ninety one miles per hour. If he was in college, and I'm just wondering as that made it hard for teams to be able to evaluate pitchers properly before they draft them. Right. Ron I'm struck by some of the older scouts they feel. They have to carry a radar gun because everybody else is doing it so to speak, but they don't really use it that much. And I remember asking when the older scouts and I kinda pose this hypothetical question, but I said, say we're out of the ballpark tomorrow night. And we see two guys pitching once kind of young, Jamie. Moyer mai-mai's hitting eighty six eighty seven on the radar gun. You've got another guy, he's going up against though he's throwing hard he's about one hundred you know, may even even shade above and which one you're going gonna go for. And he just kind of laughed and I said, I know where you're going with this, my mind, telling me if that young, Jamie years. But she's hitting the spots getting guys out in not using a lot of pitches. That's the guy should go for. But my heart's telling me go for the heat know over the guys throwing a hundred because that's potentially a guy that can. Remake your ball team. And that's what scouts even today. Fall in love with and you still see were impacts teams. I don't think say that the Troy Tigers a couple years back make the World Series without zoom, Maya ver- Lander, you know, some power arms. You're looking at, you know, the Rockies now loading up with power arms. Probably the giants too. So am even Pap on. I don't think I don't think the Red Sox repeat possibly champions, without Pap, labontes, a closer so time and time again, we've seen we're sending this boost of high heat can change around a club. But there's usually a lot of bells and whistles attached to it and ballclub clubs then but they still pull the plug. Cultural question. And that is the fact that if you've got kids that are in college or high school in the United States, they're probably getting some pretty good training and coaching. But you take a look at the the Dominican players also those from central and South America, even Mexico. What about that situation? I run because I think, you know, I've been to the kademi, you know, in the Dominican Venezuela, you know seen the blow ball and Cuba. And frankly, what I see in the are they get better instruction. And I think sometimes even the facilities are better. They tend to churn out kids and maybe use kids up. I think in some ways, we're back to this infatuation with heat. I see it a lot in highschool ball. I mean I'm here in the DC area. I went out the other night so game where a kid was thrown pretty well, but he wasn't throwing really hard. He lost to a kid who walked a lot maybe hit a couple of guys, etc. But he was the one the scouts drooling over, and I think we're getting better instruction, but one of the things I really concerned about the way and the guys down at Dr James Andrews bio, mechanics, lab down in Birmingham. Alabama pointed this out to me. I went down there and spoke with them, actually. I had my fastball. Record it or whatever which was pretty ugly. But one of them pointed out at one point, I said, well, are we always assured? We've got another Bob feller, or Nolan Ryan out there and the one, one of the guy said, yeah, there's another one coming, but I don't think he's playing baseball year round meaning that even the big league guys are able to shut it down for a little bit where we tend to live in a world right now that the kids start showing ability to ages eleven twelve or thirteen it's put him on a league team. So we kind of wonder why they burn out. Research. You have a great story in here about Bob feller, and how he participated in a bizarre experiment o'clock is fast. Share that with everybody. Well, it's nineteen forty in buffalo or is in street clothes. And he's, they take him down to the park in Chicago by the lake. They've closed down the street and they hand them a baseball and he sixty feet six inches away from target. And it's roughly about this tall guy. There's another target just to the right of and Bob's. Even starting to ask about that. What's that for? Oh, you don't need to worry about that, when we say go throw the ball her as you can. Well, they didn't really tell them everything was going to happen just before he is, is pretty much as they say. Go a motorcycle goes Racine by him on the right hand side at eighty seven miles an hour driven by Chicago policeman Harley Davidson, motorcycle, and Bob throws the ball hits the target, which he's still stunned by today. Hit the bullseye, this thing was all filmed, because the motorcycle is going eighty seven. And Bob's, you know fastball when it head of it, they were able to compute. Somehow that Bob was throwing one hundred four point five that day. As well for. So how'd you get yourself into this situation? And secondly. Really, why did you do it? And he just said, well, I knew they were, they promise me, they're going to test my fastball, and I always wanted to know really how fast I was. And that's kind of one of the things. All these fireball is, you know, Walter Johnson through at the Remington rifle factory Nolan Ryan before, really radar guns. Got all the bugs out of them was throwing the infrared guns and such, I think all of them realize they belong to the select club, and I think all of them wanna know in within a realm, how fast they're actually throwing. That's why feller was there Chicago that day in about forty seconds. Did you come up with a winner for the high heat award? I came up with a winner. I came up with well tip my head a little bit. I came up with Nolan Ryan, but I went with I think he can easily throw a blanket over the top five six guys. While Walter Johnson, Steve. Delk. Hausky satchel page feller excetera. I thought for example, and everybody I interviewed for the book I interviewed more than eighty five people that's the last question, always ask give me your top ten top twelve and they'd hem and haw, but they always would, and I was very surprised by some of the answers, Earl Weaver, for example, who is the mentor to Steve dill cows give out for sure he'd named elk hausky is his number one and Earl said, no, I can't he didn't make the major leagues. And that's the ultimate goal of any big league player. So it's a interesting thing, and I think in some ways have really kind of besides some of these basic questions that any fan has where you kinda come down on them. Makes anybody decide who they're all time favorite is. Jim, thank you. Good to be with the name of the book is called high heat. We continue with more of you and sports. Byline. I've recently discovered the powerful health benefits of CBD oil, I have been using new leaf natural CBD oil for some time now. And I love it. 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You know, tidy up below the belt trimmed, the yeti, every guy knows the trees dance taller when the shrubs are trimmed and nine out of ten women said that they preferred their men manned scape, but you gotta use the right tools for the jewels or you look like you clear cut the forest with a machete and Nixon cuts are the last thing the twins down, south need. Pop over to my buds at manscaping dot com and check out their perfect package. Two point. Oh featuring the lawnmower, which is the perfect tool for below the waist grooming. And it's rechargeable and waterproof. So you can use it in the shower men's gape, invented skin, safe technology that won't Nick or snag Mars or Uranus, which hearts like the dickens, when Jupiter ascends order your perfect package two point. Oh, featuring all the right tools for the jewels and get twenty percents off plus free shipping and free travel bag Papa were demands scape dot com and enter promo code USA for twenty percents off plus free shipping and a free travel bag manscaping dot com, promo code USA. That's. Gaped dot com, promo code USA. This is America's sports talk show, sports, byline USA. Here's Ron Baugh. Jim gay joins us on sports byline, if you ever wanted to know what baseball was like before nineteen forty seven Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier. Then you want to check out Tim's book, it's called Sach, dizzy and rapid Robert, the wild saga of interracial baseball before Jackie Robinson, and Tim has I was reading through this book. I found it fascinating, because it is kind of like an oral history of baseball before integration is not sure is at a story that has really been told before the spectacular interracial games that go back to Mary loops of the game. Every great baseball superstar white and black run played in these games to like shit. Babe Ruth, even tie hub on us Wexner, and then great black. I constantly say on Joe Williams pop Lloyd, the all played in these wonderful postseason at array for games that very few people know about I thought it was interest. When you wrote the characters that have evolved around them. Meaning pages black balls step and fetch dean is a hapless hillbilly and feller as crass money grubber do a disservice to their legacy. Such labels fail to take into account. The remarkable roll all three played in helping America become a better place. Why did they have these images? I think part of it is easy. Stereotypes are out there for a reason because they serve someone's purpose. It's served satchels purpose and increased his marketability by portraying himself as a clown. When, in fact, he was very sharp calculating Guinan brilliant, natural market, here, the same with diz is came into being at a time when radio was just becoming sort of dominant medium in America, and he realized he could take his kind of porn ball personality and translated into a radio persona filler became a very shrewd dismayed at a time when baseball had very few in recognize the kind of money that could be made wall of interracial barnstorming, but you sort of look at those free stereotypes, and none of the really tell the story all three them helped to make pure this country. Better place in it took those. Small amount of courage for these guys to put on, if a racial ball in the teeth of Jim crow American, you know, you look in you explorer, the integral role that these unsanctioned games played in the fabric of American life during the depression and World War, Two why were they accepted the this type of competition when society in general was segregated? Well, you know, it's fascinating if you sort of look in the shadows of baseball and other great American institutions, that's live during the Jim crow times, you see, these remarkable interracial moments tip lynched in jazz. Benny Goodman had the courage to integrate his some at a time when it was unlawful for jazz groups to appear on stage if they will racially integrated yet, and yet, it's the same is true of dizzy dean, he was part of the notorious guests have gang Puebla's in Saint Louis that was very redneck in very sick. Rega- Sionist, and yet busy, who's a native Arkansan didn't see what the big deal was run for, for him to be playing against the black ball players he'd been doing it all his life, he'd been picking cut and all of his life shoulder to shoulder with, with the black folks and wanted to make money the same way. He was making money during regular season play against white big waiters. And so even in the midst of the awful, segregation of Jim crow America, the, the are there are these uplifting moments. But please understand what lay at the root of all this was money, these guys wanted to make money and they wanted they were paid a pittance during the regular season and the best way to make serious money in the season was to engage in the racial exhibitions, as I said they've been going on for decades since the eighteen eighties and a pretty frequent basis by the time Disney shots came on the scene in the early nineteen thirties that he really developed it anyone art form and barnstorm not only the mid west and out onto the west coast, where racial attitudes were somewhat more relaxed. But in the border states in places like Missouri, and Oklahoma and Kansas where. The clans steel tragically cold many of the shots, and it took great courage for people of color, just do walk through the chance for the middle of the day. Let alone play baseball against you. I kind of major late. It's is there any correlation between the negro leagues in the old AFL and what I mean by that is that people kind of like the old AFL because it was wide open and exciting. And I think you could probably say that many white fans probably embraced the negro leagues because of their their showmanship and they're aggressive style as well. Am I correct in that? That is absolutely good. Analogy branch Rickey was one of the first grade. Whites baseball gurus to understand that the style of play. They make relievers perky. Gather was exactly the kind of where he wanted his cartel. And then later dodger bull clubs to point Richie back in the nineteen twenties us to show up one of the few white people in the stands at St Louis colored star. Dr games and scalp people. Take notes the style of play. Looked at the likes of cool. Papa bell. Great in a beautiful outfielder in one of the guys ever to play baseball really well will be out on. He was called when he played ball in Mexico. One of the sharpest fielding shortstops of all time, you know, think. Think about the great shortstops of all time, and Willie wells, his name is right at the absolute top the last, so Ricky decades before he finally integrated, the big rates with Jackie Robinson, in nineteen forty seven in Brooklyn was studying the, the style of play the negro leaguers in really admiring it and wanting his players to emulate. Events that you talk about. And I think it's safe to say it is a hallmark event. It was a series that was played in nineteen thirty three and it was billed as the North Dakota state baseball championship. What made that so important him? It's significant for a couple of reasons. I it's the first racially integrated club, and it included the great chateaux paves the story is that hard dealer, North Dakota state capitol wanted to be his archrivals in. So he started paying for the absolute best negro league players of that era satchel page, Ted double duty Radcliffe. He'll Louis Smith. All these great names to come. Leave your negro league clubs in the middle of the regular season that come out and play on the Great Plains in thirty three Sach those out for the first time he has such a good time, and it's such a lucrative deal for them that in thirty five he goes back, again, this time he stays almost the entire season, and in nineteen thirty five Sachin. These guys that I mentioned in fact, all five members of the pitching staff of the nineteen thirty five this Bismarck clump, were black, and all of them brilliant, a couple of future hall of famers edition, symmetrical. But they go to Wichita Kansas than when the first ever national babe baseball congress tournament in which completely dominating study. Proteins from all around the country to such a degree that the next year. The tournament dictates that no racially mixed clumps can come and play all all all white clubs. But a good thirteen years before Jackie Robinson integrated the big league cetera play central pages playing with a racially integrated club in North Dakota just amazing social history. How does Bob has been? How does Bob bit into the story? Well at a couple of voice first summer was only seventeen years old. The first time he faced statue page in an interracial barnstorming game if you can believe it right after Rob's. What he sees in what the Cleveland Indians in thirty six he played with a, a white club headed by the great Rogers Hornsby, that was barnstorming through Iowa, Colorado and canton's satchel was the opponent to the once the team Sachin his negro national all stars that included. Cool Papa bell, the grades Oscar Charleston and players l-. So Johnny Mize was one of the white guys on the Hornsby fellows for the next for the first time page in filler getting into Moines. And Tobu thirty six pack tiny little league park in Des Moines. The little minor league dole park that the demo-. Minor league team played in and just thrilled the crowd. Both the guys through shutout inning after shut at any and struck out almost everybody. They say just amazing stuff, and that was thirty six in forty five forty six and forty seven they launched on all over the country together. So the, the business partnership that was cemented that thanking demoain in nineteen thirty six continued all the way through the post war years, and Sachin, Bobby made money hand over fist following the the end of the regular season. And they in the fall of, of those postwar years owners wanted to keep baseball segregated so they could not have been very happy about these types of competitions where they well they tried to stop them at the beginning. But I think the nineteen. Forty six postseason tour that feller organized and personally financed, the leave it or not run fellow from a fifty thousand dollars of the money unheard of in nineteen forty cents Erica. And he chartered to airplanes to take the white end neighborly all star teams all over the country. They had they played almost three dozen games. I think it was twenty eight different markets around the country, including the west coast, and I think filler, who was a very shrewd businessman opened up the eye to the major league club owners, not only to the potential of should negro league is as serious gate attractions, but to the lucrative -ness of the west coast markets for the first time feller show, baseball, how much money could be made by bringing games out to the west coast, and Walter Nellie in the family, and all the rest certainly took note back in the forty six and. And he was using airplanes for the first time ever in baseball history to go from city to city and baseball stood up took notice. And thank you. Thank you really helped profoundly changed the game for the gun. I would think that probably the integration with the Jackie Robinson coming into baseball was really, what kind of killed the, the barnstorming. Am I correct about that? It sure did it not only chadron kill barnstorming, because interracial barnstorming was the biggest by far Lor that barnstorming had to offer job of every every year. But it also killed a negro leagues, which is unfortunate rod because they was such an important part of the American baseball, same beginning at the turn of the century and stretching all the way into the post war years. But after people saw Jackie and Larry Doby who also played with Jackie Curtis barnstorming tours, and with satchel in the postwar barnstorming, once Robinson Jobe integrated, the big lake, and we're followed by the likes of money or. And Lloyd Campanella Don Newcombe, and all the less people, people want to see those guys play the negro leagues. They wanted to see them playing the integrated majors television also killed off on star make us once television blunt baseball into everyone's living. All if he came less urgent for people for a few bucks into hat in go down to the local ball yard to see these great major leaguers play because the plan telling us, we only have ninety seconds left. But Tim, what do you want the readers to take away from this book? Just the I think it's the incredible role that baseball has played as a social instrument in this country for so many decades. It was part of an America's that we all look back on. And once it was so trapped in Jim crow America in yet they still this study, conservative institution, led the way on integration and that these games paved the way for. Immigration, if you think about it. Ron Jackie integrated, the bigwigs almost a full decade before the United States Supreme court out in segregation in American schools, almost a full decade before, Dr king. And Rosa prints integrated, you know, the bus system of Montgomery with the great Montgomery bus, boycott, it all makes for the marketable social history. In baseball was the absolute forefront. The way the book came out, too. I am. And I'm especially happy, that it's been so nicely received critically and commercially. And I think people are now beginning to recognize not only that worry, the old negro lakes, but the imports of these interracial matchups. Congratulations on this book. It is well worth reading, and I urge everyone to check it out. It's called Sach, dizzy and rapid Robert, the wild saga of interational baseball before Jackie Robinson. Thank you for spending, some time with us here on sports byline take care of him on. It's been my pleasure. Thank you from the negro leagues. Never get the credit that they are do, but this is a fascinating read. And I think if you're interested in the history of baseball, you're going to find out an awful lot in this book from Tim gay. We'll take a break continue across the country and around the world with you on sports. Byline. Rebuild or replace transmission. Thirty two hundred dollars brake system, a thousand dollars to replace engine twenty four hundred dollars to this once you're manufacturer's warranty runs out. It's all on you every last cent. Get protection for covered repairs with a vehicle service contract from Toco Warranty. Unlike other companies with Toko, there's no down payment, and the monthly payments are really affordable. Not your long. 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The goo dot com now available. Slipped, the big five stores near you. This is America's sports talk show, sports, byline USA. Here's ron. If you're a baseball fan, I'm sure you enjoy this hour, we kicked it off. With Tim Wendo, Wendy was the founding editor of USA Today baseball weekly. And if you want to check it out. It's a great read. It's the author of the book, high heat, the secret history of the fastball, and the improbable search for the fastest pitcher of all time, and then a book that I can tell you, I read, and I really, really like it's called satchel, dizzy and rapid Robert, the wild saga interracial baseball before Jackie Robinson, and it's interesting over the years, I've had a chance to talk to people like Willie Mays and others that were part of the negro leagues. And they talked so fondly about playing in the negro leagues but those competitions with the white ball clubs the barnstorming teams for something very special to them as well. I'm Ron bar. We'll be talking to you on America's sports talk show. We're talking combat sports Saturdays and Sundays Levin. Emphasis time. My name is Pedro Fernandez. Join me for ring talk live worldwide sports byline. You're listening to the heartland newsfeed radio network. Art man newsfeed dot com. Your service daily newscast for Tuesday, tune the eleven twenty nineteen. I'm Mike Clifford groups across a nation working for an accurate, twenty twenty cents is count also on Tuesday rundown, giving students dose of reality on finances. Plus, we'll take you to a state, that is considering a measure, that would decriminalize sex work, tapping, our news. A lot is at stake in the upcoming twenty twenty census and nonprofit groups are stepping up to ensure an accurate count born the story from Eric Glenis civic groups across Nebraska, are gearing up to organize their own outreach efforts for the upcoming twenty twenty cents after Governor Pete Ricketts vetoed legislation last week that would have created a Nebraska, complete count committee, charged with encouraging participation John cardiac with the group civic, Nebraska says getting an accurate count is important because census numbers determine how many congressional seats Brask gets, and how many federal tax dollars come back to the state. We're talking about billions of dollars. Given to Nebraska, fun things such as roads education child welfare, and more rural areas that is tied directly to this, once every decade, but then which is really huge undertaking. But a very important one group's most vulnerable for an undercount include children in rural communities, seniors and minorities documents recently revealed that a citizenship question was added to the twenty twenty cents to help Republicans and undercut democratic representation in state legislatures and congress. The Trump administration has argued that asking people if they are a US citizen is necessary to protect voting rights. A final ruling is expected by the US supreme court, a study by George Washington University finds the Brassica staff salutes about twenty one thousand dollars for every person missed the twenty twenty count it or Eric ticket off reports north west credit unions are now giving high school students a taste of what you might call real world budgeting about thirteen hundred. Oregon students attended financial reality. Fair sponsored by local credit unions across the state this year, providing young people, a crash course, in managing money responsibly once they're in charge of their own finances. The exercise takes place on an app called bite of reality that randomly assigned students careers starting salaries and other characteristics, such as student debt at the fares volunteers, try to sell them on expenses that might be outside their means brook man bleed is head of inroads credit union in Saint Helen's, at the end of the fair, they hit a button on the app, and it tells them, whether or not Dave been able to make decisions to live within their means. Or if they need to go back and change their decisions based on the income that they have available to them. Students get to decide on everything from housing and transportation to clothing and travel in our test with balancing their budget by the end of the fair grants from the northwest credit union foundation made forty events at twenty one schools across the northwest possible this academic year. The butt of reality up also throw students curb bowls, including an unexpected cost of fixing a car the ideas, too high. Light the importance of thinking ahead and saving for lice unanticipated expenses last week, memorial vigils held across the state of North Carolina, that's to honor people who've suffered or died because they lacked health insurance. Kristen resident Richard hor de ski says, up until last year, he hadn't seen a doctor in more than two decades or dusky has worked in construction and owns a small fruit farm, he, and his wife are longtime foster parents. He says many foster parents are caring for children with special needs, while not being able to see a doctor themselves. Stressful things when you're working with kids with mental disabilities. I mean that was who specialized in two while we realize that a lot of two and were getting that feel I'll syndrome. So we specialize in that it was really, really hard, North Carolina is one of fourteen states that have chosen not to accept federal dollars for Medicaid expansion. It's estimated that nearly half. Million people mostly uninsured adults would become eligible for coverage if the state chose to expand the program, I'm not Ramleh gun eleven percent of north Carolinians or uninsured. That's according to the Henry J Kaiser family foundation among adults, nineteen to sixty four and committed sixteen percent in the state do not have insurance and finally from New York, some Albany, legislators say that criminalising sex work between consenting adults only empower sex traffickers, and it's time for a change. Andrea Sears has all report a package of bills called the stop violence in the sex trades act has been introduced in both the assembly and Senate the first statewide Bill of its kind in the country, it would decriminalize trade in sex between consenting adults Nina low is a member of decriminalize a coalition of more than thirty organizations spending the LGBTQ racial Justice harm reduction, and immigrant's rights. Unity's. She points out that many marginalized, people are shut out of the formal economy by discrimination, and turn to the sex trade to survive, the, their families, or to pay for gender firming house care. So we don't want to criminalize their form of survival, and that's why would criminalising but the sale and purchase a sex opponents of decriminalization say it would promote sex trafficking pimping in organized crime. But supporters emphasize that the Bill if passed would leave laws against human trafficking rape, assault, sexual exploitation of minors and sexual harassment in place, the legislative sessions about to end in New York on June the nineteenth, so there's a little chances Bill passed this year. Low says introducing it now will encourage public discussion and education, and he plans to reintroduce it next year. I Mike Clifford for public news service, we are member, enlisted support it, and you'll find us online at public, do service dot ORG eight. Hundred five zero seven eleven forty eight little to no cost with full insurance payment Copan deductive, supplying promises qualification wants plice last the following is a special presentation. You're listening to sports overnight. America. We are back with another hour of sports overnight. America. Thanks for staying with us. Jeff rich here to take you through. And let me tell you folks. Have you had Seattle on my mind? A lot lately. You know, whether it's the hideous color, rush. Uniforms received the check to see tickets rock on the field? The university of Washington, winning the Pac twelve championship in representing their conference in the Rose Bowl. For the first time in sometime Chris Peterson being justed perhaps as in NFL head coaching candid candidate. That's the first real mention if we've heard a lot of Lincoln Riley, and Matt Campbell, but not so much Chris Peterson things have been quiet. He's done probably as much as you can do at the university of Washington. So what's next for for coach Peterson? He did it in Boise state. It is much as he could at Washington, union win the national championship and either stop. But. The university of Washington football program. Maybe not even the talk of its own state is first college sports. Go. Of course, you've got good saga. Always teetering towards the top of the rankings actually graduating into Cup five Danis graduating in to eight final fourteen you know, they've always been good. Bye. When were they going to turn the corner of would have they hit their ceiling? It looks like they could still achieve a little bit more in Spokane for Mark few, Mike. Leach, of course, is always a crazy story yet the wazoo. And you know it's funny when you hear his name mentioned for other jobs. It's just such a perfect job for him, Texas Tech didn't seem like it was that comfort zone for Leach. And of course, he was forced out probably not on his own terms. So I know that Pullman is not exactly Seattle. We talk about the Mariners being gutted the Sonics being gone, and the NHL franchise that they're due to receive here in a few years by Jeff rich. This is sports overnight. America, we're talking Seattle this hour. It will be right back. You man gape, right? 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Four. They'll bring netted notion stamped aghast pass. Touchdown. Listening to sports overnight. America. Back. Everyone thinks you're staying with us. Jeff rich coming from the southwest in Phoenix. Arizona discussing v northwest tool, six this hour here on sports overnight America, and you to six resonates with me because they used to have a number of local number here to Phoenix, but it started with the two sex than you have acts. That's a local phone number. Now, we got ten digit numbers, nobody knows them these days because everybody likes him into their phone, and that's that's that. So you don't really have to have any consciousness of anybody's phone number in gain, cluding, your own, sometimes it's weird. Sometimes you don't know your own number. And you have to call somebody so that your number comes up on the caller ID, but a long story short, I had a number that started with two sexes local number Phoenix. And I get called for this hospital all time because people got out of the habit. Hit one speck when landline phones existed. But. Seattle, man, Seattle two thousand one the Mariners were great. And they have been back to the postseason sense. The Seattle Seahawks. What the Super Bowl in two thousand six people forty up into Troy there was. Largely remembered as age Rome scheme just because of the dedication so much. Remember his performance in the game. A memory trick play involving I believe Antwan Randle and a long run by Willie Parker and quite the jobbing of the Seattle chickens by the zebras on the field. And I have a lot of bias there because I have a fan of the Browns I thought that I saw the same thing happen to the cardinals when the Steelers defeated them in the Super Bowl in Tampa few years later, but those were the humble beginnings that was the emergence of the Seattle Seahawks as a legitimate contender. You know, there were there, surprise team two thousand six home grin out p Carol in, in a couple of years later, you have a Super Bowl championship decimate. The Denver Broncos. It wasn't a tropical trip. You know, you beat them in the Meadowlands by nonetheless with Russell, Wilson's you or third round talent. This was the Seattle team that had signed Matt Flynn, who looked since eighteen was backup in Green Bay for air Rogers. Yeah, this is enough. There was a Rogers. I kinda kinda still in that mode where you have to wonder was that far was there. I don't have that problem with, like Romo and Prescott. I don't have that problem anymore with Grady and Bledsoe. Or he'll really any other quarterback passing the torch, you know, kind of strange passing of it from Alex Smith to Patrick Mahomes, in Kansas City, at least as the two thousand eighteen season has played out. Yes, yes. Still doing it all school now. They've been recently definite victims of what the salary cap in. What successful does you get your player signed another teams. Good seasons day championship to do that. Just breakout seasons from players, walk walkers, and whole thing that part really quickly, Seattle of the key component of the Shuba championship team Dane. Dan? Quin very nearly became a champion in his own right as head coach with the Atlanta Falcons but they liked the Seahawks. Couldn't hang onto a lead and would we look at Seattle so much differently had. They won both of those Super Bowls that they went to before the whole thing came crumbling now, and maybe the whole thing doesn't come crumbling down to rings you'll maybe you don't have these controversies where with why did he play in the Super Bowl, you'll and you end up moving this player, you end up looking Bill Belichick being so stubborn? But p Carol's only two to Pekar those things his way. And you know, they got laughed at for taking a guy like Bruce Irvin in the first round said, you know, he's not even a day, not even day, one town back. One day one was longer than the just the first round. You've got. Get this, this coach to take chances on. They seem to love plan form. They loved platform at USC USC, and the Pac twelve have not been the same since Pete Carroll depart. The same either. Are you really think about it? This is this west that as rewarded the least worst-off Shen in many cases, you had the greatest show on turf in the let's fast forward to when we have thirty two teams in the league and we go eight by four. So the, you know, Seattle had to migrate from the AFC over to the NFC. And you know that, that happened, I believe when the. Texans came into the league in two thousand three. By in any event, you have a Seattle team that really taken over that out. You'll America's haven't done anything in Seoul long. They cling anything there at Safeco and it's a great park and had some great players come through there. And of course they were in the league championship series in two thousand one in before that in nineteen ninety five. And, you know, there's a big blank, Dave crag, and Warren Moon play up there. He probably did at some point played up William played up the university of Washington players. Remember from the university of Washington. Corey dillon. I remember players work. Ring out, Washington, I need Akbar receiver named Reggie Williams. Guys that never panned out in the National Football League. The apple Cup. Look that looked upon volley among all of the rivalries, the trophy games, the deal that the games titles to them. But get back to the Seahawks. They've had their players over the years. Steve, large in, I remember Kurt mortar Kurt with Warner John L Williams. But the receivers that, that the forgivable over the years Bobby Ingram. John Alexandersson Alexander a big part of that team. When hassle back was the was the savior was the guy that take them to the promised land being Russell Elsa. PM p Carol taking a chance on Russell's Wilson. I know that we give head coaches and quarterbacks. A lot of credit and too much credit to often. But that's that's conventional pairing. Russell Wilson's not exactly a carbon copy of weiner's Carson Palmer John David booty. With most of your USC quarterback, you Canadian from the p Carol era. John David booties got to be up there. It was booting a moody, manual moody transfer there from transferred there from Florida transferred to Florida from seeing you don't put together a professional career as big of a college fan. I am. I don't know where he don't from the university of Washington. I don't know. Jerome Harrison from Washington state had a majestic as the Cleveland Browns once upon a time in two thousand nine December two thousand ninety the Kansas City Chiefs. But yeah, these guys forget about, you know, hopefully, you know, name in Washington state, that we don't ever let the name Tyler ski out of our mind. You know, young man was slated to be Washington state starting quarterback in two thousand eighteen takes his own life in the offseason prior to that season. And. You know it's one of those things the difficult to speak as difficult to talk about rather talk about the success rather talk about the Seattle Seahawks. Bring in home in Super Bowl. Forty nine and being Oso close, but calling bizarre slant play when you have marshawn Lynch in a goal line situation are were probing the goal I right here right now on sports overnight, America. We will talk about these ATL baseball Mariners, maybe elaborate beyond just the season that they had in two thousand one, which is the highlight of their team history. And they hoped better, that someday back when more Seattle sports Jeff rich, this is sports overnight, America. Sickens fishing. I should be. In franchise history. As. Lifestlye four three. This is sports overnight, America. Attention business owners now is the perfect time to start saving money on your cable TV Bill for your business. We can give you packages with the ninety gray channels and save your business at ton of gash. And if you call right now you can learn how to get free equipment and free installation. Now you have choices. It's time to start saving money on your cable TV Bill for your business, and call today and get ninety channels plus free equipment and free installation. Smart business owners like you all across the country are consolidating and saving money on their cable, TV internet and phone service for the business. So now's the perfect time. This may be a limited time offer to the first one hundred people that call right now. So please save money and call now. 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Eight hundred nine three two one seven four nine eight hundred nine three two one seven four nine eight hundred nine three two one seven four nine that's eight hundred nine three two. Seventeen forty nine not too long ago. It felt good to withdraw your cash from the Bank didn't it for a vacation or a new car? But today withdrawing your own cash has become risky, Pat, Boone here was swift Marica, according to the secret war, new Swiss America white paper, I learned that all banks are now required to spy on you and me for the government, and then report any financial behavior deemed suspicious or unusual. You must read the secret war. It's free truth is I believe the government's new war against cash is really a war against us all, but the secret is now out, so please yet and read the secret war, pick up your phone and call right now. Eight hundred nine three to five five one seven eight hundred nine three to five five one seven eight hundred nine three to five five one seven. Once again, that's eight hundred nine three two fifty five. Seventeen. What love Abassid into the gap and they could win it with junior speed stretch. And they'll one John the way to Edgar Martinez role model. Here's to. There will be. Camping. Just been did news. Down. The left field wide. Roese keiko. Hey, baby. Lose a call in then spam building. And maybe I seem a bit confused. Yeah, maybe but I got your. Or listening to sports overnight. America are back sports overnight. America thought Seattle stocks Seattle mariner, never folks. We are live at ten pm, the civic time Monday through Thursday. You get me behind this microphone. I am Jeff rich and you can get me off air at Jeff rich talks on Twitter. Like what I had to say, don't like, what I say you wanna tell me what you feel. I feel about what I'm saying on this program. Go ahead at Jefferson talks. But right now, we're talking Seattle Mariners team that I remember from my childhood, you know, away that we discussed the in a driveway off a call to sack, you know, in a suburb of a city that was ill nineteen hundred miles away. We looked at Seattle wondered why they couldn't win. They had J buehner. They had Ken Griffey junior. They had. Edgar martinez. The have Randy Johnson problem. It was the pitching after Randy Johnson just wasn't a lot of their this is. You know that organization that's had hall of Famer in Griffey a one day hall of Famer in each row. Who knows what what's going to be the case of Edgar Martinez? I would suspect if Harold, Baines gets in primarily as designated hitter throughout his career that Edgar Martinez cannot be very far behind with enshrinement to town, each euro should already be in. But the pill, this time, Felix, this isn't going to be an interesting case all the numbers, and you're not gonna love them. But the people that remembered him pitching will get him in. You know, just won't be doesn't tarnish too much by pitching to on his career. One guy that did not do that. Randy Johnson, you know you had some some rough times around the edges at the end. Hopefully, nobody remembers too much as in New York Yankee, but as a as an Zona Divac, as a Seattle mariner, that's how Rieti Johnson should be remembered. Remember you once wins the title in. I hate getting snobby about championship rings but he wins the title with the IRS Ota Divac he was the most valuable player in that two thousand one World Series. So he definitely deserves to be remembered as diamondback despite how great he was emperor, hats, la- greatest Seattle mariner pitcher at least in franchise history. You can make an argument for Felix you could make an argument for even Jamie Moyer who's right at the top as far. As that war statistic goes, they've had Robertson Cano there. They had the Jeep unit once upon a time Alvin Davis, Harold Reynolds, guys from the old more Royal blue yellow s the cap, John all route. Stop there. Of course, Elson crews more recently might Cameron mic. Everday I believe, Mike Cameron and FREDDY Garcia to, you know, to be of that Ken Griffey junior trade with the Cincinnati Reds was the off-season between ninety nine and two thousand I just remember go to a game ever front stadium in two thousand with Griffey plan for the reds. And it was it was the reds jersey. I mean, no, Pete Rose, I couldn't honestly EEO. Give you a great assessment of who else in the reds zone had back then but can't Griffey junior was a big enough draw in his own, right. Hellish robbery is, of course, drafted out of high school to play there and he played well I mean, this is the organization that let go of Omar Vizquel, for honestly pennies on the dollar of late. It hasn't been great. Let's see the managers who have not taken the steam the playoff Bob Elvin, who I really liked, but Yuli spent two years with the club back in two thousand three two thousand four wins ninety three games, finishes second misses the postseason thousand three thousand four they go. They kind of flip it around sixty three and ninety nine after going, ninety three and sixty nine the year before, so regression get you can't more often than not my car grove off stop there for a little while. And then they went through some interim managers McClair and Riggleman walk. About two was there for just over a season Brown took over Eric wedge was there for three seasons Clinton for two seasons. And I think that they like what they have with Scott service. You know, he regrets from your two year two but Neil Hong right around the five hundred high watermark, eighty six seventy six to seventy four and eighty four most recently in two thousand eighteen they finished eighty nine seventy three they were in third place behind two. Very good. Baseball teams in the Houston Astros. And the Oakland Athletics, yes, Seattle could have won more games. You know, when they could have put it together, they were just chasing it too much at the end, the as Scott hot. Yeah. Stroz were yesterday as good as the defending world championship be in the first half of their, you know, their raining season as champions. But your, your best player at this point, Mitch Haniger you mentioned you're going to sell high on him. There's all kinds of theoretical trades moving him. You figure GNC girl is going to have moved. They picked up Carlos Santana that trade that sent canola the s to the mats. Jape Reuss Anthony, sores AC. About these couple of prospecting including clinic, and just done come in. They're trying to get younger the trying to shed payroll. I think that they are kind of in the situation in the western vision that maybe Cleveland's in, in the American League, period where you, you look at yourself and you know that you're pretty good. But you know that what you've got isn't enough in the case. The goal is just to win the division make the playoffs. Give these fans of folk postseason game win the division. I'm not talking. I mean if you got to play wildcard game at least maybe try to play it up there at Safeco. This received go, you know that's stadium bench. You I like it. I like the I like the Seattle area. I don't not like driving in Seattle. That's not an indictment on all of Washington state of in limited trips to the northwest of actually point of driving across the state of Washington. And I'll tell you what. If I you know, if I could have a second woman edition to the Syrian Phoenix, Arizona, I love to live up in northern Washington. Right near the Canadian border right on the on the coast. Tele Bellingham about, you know. I could just get away. I go to huskies games. You know, I go to a lot of Mariners camps because I'd be living there in the summertime because you don't live in Phoenix and summertime. If you've got other options. Heels far as watching the Mariners. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of consistency. Rubbed, seeking Ilda. The suspension was the big deal. So he goes back to New York. Not exactly the same kind of pinstripes there. And the Mariners are just gone. Again. You know, the, the Mariners have hell walked on flicked you, I think, you know, the grip is always matter at your issue is probably the mariner. Just as you did need heavy jersey, change laundry. She only thing that you ever know, as you say is baseball player also say that he is a Seattle mariner. Each your role. Unfortunately, were other laundry, I remember the issue row crazy. I mean they are so much. Tell one. And they were in the in, in two thousand twelve. However, the two thousand one is the pinnacle, because, you know, move on from Iran, they bring in this import each euro and I remember being over there in Seattle. Unfortunately Mariners were on the road the entire time. I was there and to make it worse. The day after I flew, flew on Monday or maybe a Sunday, the Monday or Tuesday after that, a rod and the Rangers come in into. Deal could go into Safeco at that point Ila safeguard ever being down by the Puget Sound and safety was billed, but the huskies pardon me. The Seahawks were still still had to been playing. I guess it could have been the king dome. They know that they ended up husky stadium there temporarily in maybe that's the time line that I'm thinking of a talk a little bit of huskies football because I think that it's a fascinating history. I think that it's very difficult to win in the Pac twelve when you're not one of those schools in the city of Los Angeles. And that's the challenge with Seattle being on the west coast is, you know, they're just so far away from everybody else has the psalmist. He had that, you know, yet, the blazers right there in Portland. It's a long haul to Oakland or eastward to Minnesota. But Seattle, you know, they got great with each euro. They had a great season and then they couldn't. And that's, that's a tragic ation sport. You remember these teams very teases, but they got to cap it off with that championship. I'm talking to you state will back more. Seattle talk on the other side sports overnight, America. I've Jeff rich override. This is sports overnight. America with your host, Jeff rich. Just on our taxes. It was depressing. I mean, we earn good money, but we're always behind in bills so met with this financial adviser who found to huge problems unplanned expenses like home repairs medical bills and credit cards with crazy. High interest rates will he graft out of brea strategy, if we get a favorable fixed-rate personal loan. We could pay off all our bills, and credit cards and still have cash at the end of the month for emergencies. And vacation, he suggested best egg dot com for their rates because consumers rated best, four point eight out of five stars on consumer affairs, the online load app took about a minute and addenda factor credit score. We got a personal loan hate off credit card bills and lower monthly payment. So we Bank, the money, we save when it's time to pay off debt and get ahead. Visit vest, egg dot com slash money. Funds can be deposited in as little as one business day best, egg dot com slash money. Best. Dot com slash money. Subject to credit approval, actual reason. 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Second goal at the two yard line Browning under center. Gaskell behind an end off mile straight ahead run to the acts stopped. Dogs continue to the Cougars Alana's driven test case expand their lead with their third touchdown here on the opening half second of the night from miles gasket, second down and ten dogs to the twenty six handoff cast little sidestep, both twenty teen at the numbers ten miles to the five diving for the. Gaskin touchdown. Watching. Now back to sports overnight, America, with Jeff Rinjani coming. Welcome back sports overnight. America sports night on the program and crow fringes do. The Seattle Sounders of the Major League Soccer in each of its ten seasons has reached the postseason on the company in two thousand sixteen. And then don't ask me for details on this. But I'll say that they want something called the supporter shield in twenty fourteen and the US open Cup in nine ten eleven and fourteen. Regarded at least according to Wikipedia as one of the most valuable franchises. I think that's a cross off soccer. Of course, drew. Carey Paul Allen among the owners of the team, and they played the clear at their at CenturyLink field there in Seattle, there's a major leagues or meter indoor soccer league the m ISL team from Tacoma that would come into play the Cleveland four SU shared a home with the Cleveland Cavaliers there in Richfield, Ohio. Just just a little stupid aside there. But you of course, when you think of Seattle back in that they think of the king dome. I think Chuck Knox. I think Dave Craig John, Elway of Kurt Warner, Steve l'argent, you, Brian Bosworth was drafted to the team has Kennedy was great player for the seat, chickens there. And I only say see chick gets because fans of that team referred to them as such. Just thinking back, you know they, they made the playoffs. If you times in the old AFC west with Chuck Knox, but they went through some head coaches. You know, they went through Tom Florez. Who else went up there? I'll it's killing me. It's killing me after look it up and come back to it and circle back to of the other head coach that didn't win anything before my comb cable, but Holmgren came along and he had Sean Alexander and you had had Hasselback guy that he was familiar with. And he did something to make it work. And you'll you've been you see that the that being the potential model across sports teams that don't wanna draft the quarterback themes that are ready to win. Now they don't wanna wait for development. They don't wanna have to trade up for a high draft pick. They're gonna get guy like that the other gonna get a guy like Kirk cousins. They're going to get a guy like case keenum, and they're gonna try to win with that type of player there Seric's. That's who it was Dennis Erickson again, again coached right here in my backyard for a few years at Arizona state. You don't you'll, you'll remember probably from the U or at. Or get stayed. You know. And if you went to the university of Idaho, right there on next door to Pullman Washington in Moscow, you'd know Dennis Erickson has ties up there as well. But as far as being the Goja the head coach of the Seattle Seahawks three thirds and a fifth place finish out of five teams in the AFC west. So it got better with with own grid. Coming over there in nineteen ninety nine not too far removed from a championship with Packers in nineteen ninety seven. Just just three years late because it was January. I. I remember that particular SuperBowl because that was. That was the one that Desmond Howard won the most valuable player ward, and that Reggie Bush proved Reggie Bush, Reggie White prove that free agency and get you a championship in the NFL that has rarely band supported with a big name, signing in a Super Bowl happening, but, you know, it happened for Reggie White and it happened several years later, of course, but he he wanna champion. We're not talking about the Green Bay Packers. Just there's a lot of roots in the Seattle Seahawks that come from the Green Bay Packers. I would say the PD I would say the Carol when he came up from USC in some ways that, you know, he read he reinvented the wheel. I never really gauge what, what type of town, that's yadda. What you know. You know, like Saint Louis you could say it's a baseball town. With Phoenix for the longest time at the Jewish said it's college sports town. And that maybe the Suns at one point, I'd say that the cardinals took it back, but I'm not sure that they're going to hold onto this. Does that ac- west? You gotta keep winning it. Nobody is over. You know, nobody is over wellm by what you've what you did three five years ago. And if she west titles are virtually handed out. Seattle one seven nine once upon a time. Now it's fair. To be completely fair. I did not expect them to beat the New Orleans Saints. I did not expect marshawn Lynch did break off arguably the greatest of all time hard. Argue that was the greatest postseason run of all time with the football. In and you're going to remember that forever Seattle. You'll remember that almost more than the interception at the goal line inner Zona against the patriots. You'll dwell on sometimes dwell on losing side of your old enough to remember. Yelled win the title back in seventy nine. Maybe you don't. Well on loosen the team much. You know, I, I wonder if that's true, I think that the time the city Seattle losing the SuperSonics moving the National Basketball Association to. Oklahoma City of all places. When they were promised one thing, over promised under delivered. That's what the NBA. That's what stern did. That's what the owners via did. For the Cleveland Cavaliers, but I know that Dan Gilbert, being in Cleveland, we has to know that those, those wounds were still rashes is two seven t that just rafted. Kevin durant. The team that had Nicholson. T- those about to draft Russell Westbrook. The reality. They gave the gave him to the Seattle SuperSonics are pardon me. The Boston Celtics. River supersonic good for the sake of the second and they were so fun to watch. They're so fun to watch. Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. Back in the day rain, man. What's your conference basketball you care about these east all Georgia? There are parallels to be had there. It was all about Jordan, but there were the Rops decals. I'm not gonna make a Seattle losing the Sonics of about project. They at least got to see LeBron and Wade. And now Ming Dwight Howard play. Double check that it'd make sure that, you know, Howard when he was with the magic actually played that one game that they played in the keyarena every year. And that's always the argument on. We don't have anywhere to play. We need the fans to chip in, you know it's not just the fans taxpayers, the fans you eat that up and ticket prices. It's hey look, you'll there's going to be a percent premium on our t