Aired Last week 0:52
Biz 1190 Overnight featuring Bloomberg Radio | WAFS Biz 1190
S. Korean leader urges bolder steps from N. Korea and US
From the news
Aired 2 months ago 64:29
Ep88 Dr. Laura Sparrow on Losing Her Baby at 35 Weeks, Her Grieving Process, What To Say to Mothers Who Experience a Stillbirth
Uh? Hey, everybody. Thank you tuning episode, eight of the virtual couch. I'm your host, Tony Overby, amyloidosis marriage and family therapist, certified lab coach writer speaker husband father, four ultra marathon runner in creator of the path back online pornography diction recovery program that is helping people reclaim their lives from pornography. Diction if you or anyone that, you know, his struggling with pornography diction, please point them to path back recall Reebok calm there. You can download short e book that describes five common mistakes that people make when trying to overcome pornography diction again that is path back recovery dot com. And thank you for the nice words from so many people after hearing last week's episode where I didn't have much of voice. I especially appreciate all of the remedies that were suggested on how next time that the show could go on and actually compiled a few of these for anybody interested apple cider vinegar t- with raw, Honey. This was a good win slippery elm tea with lemon, not really sure what slippery elm is the court of the. I guess as opposed to the the much more traction elm second on barris, lozenges, cough serve that sort of thing moisture with humidifier gargling, warm saltwater and something to do with ginger root. So thank you for all of the feedback in the concern. I am seriously grateful for that. And do you wanna learn how to be happy then head over to Tonio dot com and enter your Email address right there next to where it says learn how to be happy, and you'll be one of the first to hear about the dates and details of a program that I am preparing to launch on how in fact, you can learn to be happy and for all you Instagram, folks. Please find at virtual couch and follow. And for those of you YouTube kind of people police find the virtual couch YouTube channel, they're my guest today. Dr Laura Sparrow, our interview is up there, and you can always give thumbs up like thing to Tony over licensed marriage and family therapist on Facebook as well. I'm grateful as well for more feedback. There's something about doing an episode about narcissism personality disorders that just I mean, I it's the feedback just doubles, and triples and. So I'm trying to get back to to everyone who has written about that. And I really appreciate you taking the time to write. And I am truly grateful that a lot of people have kind of found some hope they are some tools that sort of thing. So trying to get back to to people that have written specifically about that that I think it was eighty six with Christine Hammond. My guest today is Dr Laura Spero, and we get into her background bit in the beginning of the interview. So she may cover some of this. But Laura had emailed me a couple of months ago with some really nice words about the podcast now how had helped her during a difficult time. And again, I appreciate every every one of those emails. I really do and emitted Lii, and this is the part that kills me is that there are times where I just feel like I I I don't I just can't kind of keep up with with getting back to people, and I feel so bad about that. And she had written me just right at a time. I think I'd come out of session. I'm waiting for somebody to walk in the Email hit right there. And I read it, and it just it really spoke to me and kind of touched me. And so what she's going to talk about the difficult time that she was having which is obviously that so today it really did. It broke my heart and a couple of people close. We're going through something similar while Laura had shared which was losing a baby kind of later in pregnancy. And I can honestly say that it's one of those times where my heart just goes out to them. And I feel like I almost don't know. I truly don't know what to do other than to just let them know how sorry I'm into sit with them the air with in with empathy because I can't imagine what they're going through. I don't know if it's the part of me, that's a male. It's a part of me that you know, we we had we have four kids. I think I why did admit in one of the episodes where my fourth child was was part of twins. We in one of them, you know, just within a few weeks my wife had been spotting. And so we learned that at that time that there have been two sacks. Right. And so one of them was not viable. But then my my son he's fine healthy and actually quite a bit taller than me now, which I hear all the time which I'm kind of grateful for. But so so I really can't imagine what Laura was going through some of these clients have been working with their friends that I've been talking with lately have been. Going through. So I felt like honestly, Laura reaching out was beyond a, you know, a tender mercy that I really needed to get her on as soon as I could. And that there were other people who were either going through this right now that needed to hear her message or that there were people who weren't sure how to talk to people that might be going through something similar. So I just hope that you'll take the time to listen to this even if you don't have anything similar like this that that is going on in your life or has gone in your life because I really feel like about how it's maybe halfway through the interview that we just touch on an entirely different level, of empathy that I don't know. I just I felt I felt kind of just how does I was. I just felt this this conviction while we were talking about empathy. I mean, that's something that I preach all the time is that that's where we need to start. We need to start in having conversations with our kids and having conversations with their spouses employees. I don't care where it is that we need to seek. I understand before. We're understood. And even then there that doesn't mean that we're gonna understand what somebody's going through. I will never be able to understand what it's. Like when Laura talks about being thirty five weeks pregnant with her fifth child, and the other four have all been been fine of then all of a sudden, not feeling you know, that that baby move inside her are, I'll never know. So there's no part of me that has any business saying, you know, hey, just come on pick yourself up just get on get past it because you know, I just I never understand that. So I just felt like we just hit this this entirely different level, of empathy during this interview, and I'm just grateful to have gotten to that level. Honestly, it's one of the things where I feel like it's changed me for the better since recording. This interview just a few days ago. I've actually thought about it quite a bit. And trust me. I am an empathy guy like nobody's business. And it's even made me think I need more. I mean, I need more empathy in order to really be able to to try to help and understand people. Whether it's my spouse might children that people that that I associate with my clients, but just to be able to sit there with them and understand what they're going through. I before I'm able to do any kind of helping or or hopefully healing. So I want to. More of your time. We'll actually wait her background. Let me just share a little bit about Laura. And again that we cover a lot of this organic through the interview, but she had share with me that she graduated from Texas Tech university with a PHD in counselor education in December two thousand sixteen. She has a bachelor's and master's degree in human development and family studies with an emphasis in early childhood development. And she did a lot of research on children with developmental disabilities and their families, and I had hoped to kind of touch on that a little bit. But the interview just was so strong that we didn't really get to that. So I'm going to try to have her on again to talk about some of that as well said that she has been married for twelve years. She has five children Benson is ten and a brand has eight billion six Bill is three and she's gonna talk a little bit more about her experience with her baby Bodey who did pass away in October of two thousand seventeen said she lives in Austin, Texas. And currently she is a full-time stay at home. Mom. So let's get to my interview with Dr Laura Sparrow. All right. So here's here's my big vulnerability right out of the gate, Laura is when you give me your background you conducted qualitative research, and then you have a word the nominal Aji or your dissertations. I say that right. I've never heard about that. But it makes me think of like there was an old Muppets thing or something where it was like phenomenon that humor that one. Remember that? Okay. So what is phenomenal Aji phenomenology is basically just taking a subject and transit tease parts. What's going on me? Has hasn't been studied in depth? And so nothing interviews trying to. The story is that makes sense. Yeah. So the next time I want to say, let's break this down. Can I say, let's phenomenology is this show. We'll I can I can go say with. Enough conviction. People will believe that it is. Right. Okay. All right. I mean, I already just broke the rule. I called you Laura. Your doctor Laura Spero, which I was loved that media people. Dr Laura now. Well. Oh, Dr Laura my mom, Dr. But not the doctor that like. As much as I get. I love it though. I do. And then I don't know if you've I'm sure you've thought this or the joke of I always feel like if you're in a plane and somebody says, you know, so he's haven't heart attack. Is anyone a doctor you kind of go. You know, technically, I am. But I don't know if it would help right now. I won't say thing. Right. Exactly. This kind of keep myself. But so, you know, and I know I know where we're talking about a pre sensitive topic today. And I'm just so grateful that you are you are willing to share your story. And and I kind of engine to you before we recorded boy, I'm hoping you're doing the heavy lifting and the driving because I feel like as a man in particular that an even this topic in general is one that I think in in the article that that I'm going to link to them. We'll talk about where you kind of talk about if someone hasn't gone through something similar would they even have any idea of what what you've been through or what to say or do? Yeah. So again. Right. You wanna kinda just you know? I don't know the best way to start. Right. So you had shot me an Email and one kind of talk about that. I'm of curious what led you to feel like, okay? I think this is something that needs to be talked about so grateful. You did. Well, so re connect because I get a really important and something that may be talk about because it's a hard topic. Yeah. Now, I passed from one of my friends posted this she down your accident was about your emotional baseline. Yeah. With the president. And it's just straddling. And she said this is a really good kind of just a good. If you're interested and you like maybe something's off listen to this. And that's nice. And so I have a background and. Is actually in counseling always interested in like middle healthy and kind of anyway. So I jumped on your passing really the idea behind doing a really good way to like. Sometimes counseling therapy seem so bombing and big to people that they just. The way that you bring snakes it really approachable intractable in people in and the end. Like AUSSIE so Reagan. Yeah. No. That makes me feel good. I appreciate bad. When I started reading after listening to it. I thought we'll break looking fees detonating with like Bossard because we've since last year, and I thought when even see how they didn't really see heating just started looking at different options on hot cafe had thought about that before as a resource f- in big books. And then I just had the impression that and you need not. Yeah. Grateful, and I think I share with you man, impostor syndrome kicks in. But I just I get a lot of emails, and I feel so bad when I don't get a chance to respond, and I think I'd come out of a session, and there was yours, and I had been working with a couple of clients that have experienced similar not. I mean, I know it's different, but is something in this area. And and I really I just had to go all in on empathy mode in the sessions because I really don't know what to do or say. So I do really like the timing was just perfect. And this is kind of this needs to get out there. Somebody reach back out connect guessing a good thing to talk about. And I like the more open. We are about maybe the more information that people have the easier it is to cope with and to kind of like not slated and. So go until your story. So we live in Texas. I recently started going to school when I have all this is now ten and when when he on month after more I decided I had a master's degree in excited. I should go back. Certain my e per part time, and then I finished that this thousand sixteen and so and then once I finished that we were kind of intrigue vision that we might MU and we ended up moving and kind of whole traditions going on that I was and was super. So I have four kids. And then they're the oldest ten and then my youngest is read, and then we have a baby voting that I've been taught about day he was four October still a little over a year ago. And so basically, we were just kind of entering session during my pregnancy. I was healthy fine. He was fine. Everything was just really normal. And I've never really had any complications any of my pregnancies. And so everything was just like everything was going along fine. Yeah. Are you one of those do enjoy being pregnant? I mean, or do you is it let's get this done with and bring me the baby or. But if you know, you're by my fifth pregnancy. This is. Got all the little kids running around and just the exhaustion. I think just like take a toll on your body kind of. Yeah. Because we were in a house, we weren't settled. We didn't know exactly where we were gonna be. It was a weird. Time. So I was just kind of trying to dependency, and it just kept saying like, okay here, then we'll get back to be able to get everything situated. So I definitely especially with this Mincy don't feel like. Now, I read it a lot but don't necessarily enjoyed his mic tank. Maternity nature's are how it was just more like. When we needed to get died. Yeah. No, it does and kind of normalize, right? Is somebody who has I have four kids. And it is that I know the joke is always the first one. You're you go all in on there's pictures of everything and every minute and by the third or fourth one. It's like you got a school pitcher where they're holding their fingers and hopefully stuff around the birthday, right? Yes. So I think as far as the pregnancy. I everything was fine. The doctor found a doctor, and we were living in Frisco, Texas at the time, I found a doctor that I really liked and she. Doing regular checkups that everything was normal. Just a week before we actually pass we had had aid ultra Siham. And she was like he's measuring that everything said is position. So for me. It was definitely not even a thought my mind like something, Iran, right, Iran. And then when the net next week with like tuber October six around the time I like Candice sought like I haven't felt the Beijing moving us medicine moral. And so I just thought like that's weird. I don't you know. It's not moving as much and. You know, pull my husband. He was like, okay. We'll just like let's sit and see if we feel he moving, and it was kind of like, I don't know. Maybe something's not I called the doctor and they said drink red bull. Our to see what's going on or whatever. So I did. And I am this just going to go into the hospital. Not like just to be sure that everything's. Yeah. Baron. We're calling my sister on the rain and on fiddle and town that I was still far on that. I was thinking maybe he's just moved down some not feeling it. And so I called my sister. Remember like kind of the end not feeling move is not since she was like no skill in just make sure but again, like not really thinking anything was wrong. Once I got to the hospital. Chill them. What was going on? They said, okay. We'll just do stress tests and make sure everything sign and when they started doing that. I remember like taking a long time. My husband was with our kids. They had the day off school choice. I'm go the hospital. I think everything's fine. Not. So. Anyway, when they did sound. There's like why can't heartbeat but not good at? She ran got another nurse at that point lower. Where you starting to kind of get a little nervous or any except the nurses kept asking me questions like they were going through kind of depressed hall, but social security number right? Okay. How many winning on breastfeeding? Like all of them were hoping. So I thought it was weird. But I guess I just thought like they're gonna be asking these questions if there was like something really wrong, right? And so I just kept trying to tell myself like, it's fine. I'm going into. Guess for like maybe the baby's like he's gonna come early. And we're gonna have to deliver soon or maybe I've been in the hospital for monitoring or something just so in your mind, you're starting to make that transition. Okay. Maybe that maybe about to happen. And I mean where you were leaning. Yeah. Yeah. And so I mean, I think that is still like Don on to anything could be really really wrong. And then they had a doctor connects you know, we're going to hook you up for the machine and ultrasound. Just kind of see what's going on and win. He came in. Once they said that was like, I don't. That seemed off to me. Just kind of trying to talk myself down like it's going to be fine just being like jumping to conclusions. It's going to be fine. It's like, I'm sorry Rb. Just like an Meniat like destroy this ranting. Sure. Yeah. And then surreal you feel like you're you're out front of experience or definitely. So for me. Like, I just kept thinking like that isn't true not to say. Yeah. So when they say that and then I was like, they're they're wrong. Like, I know everything's gonna be fine. And they're just confused probably machines thing, but then I remember like trying to pull myself back chew and be like why can't? Hysterical, or I don't know what they were gonna do. They're gonna think I'm crazy. So I was like I just need to to the bat. So I went to the bathroom, and then kind of to stall heart and then. I don't know it just seems. So it was such a weird thing and then trying to call my husband and talk to him, and I couldn't really talk in having the nurse. I mean, I remember pretty steeply desk. Kind of out of body streets or like this happening fee? Having a dream that I just can't wake up, right? Okay. So I think like an even healthy was born, Freddie in bed in my mind. I wasn't saying like I feel like he's gonna be okay. Probably we're going to have to stay in view or something like that. Yeah. So then at that point, then when you come out of the bathroom, and I mean, what do they did you end up staying in the hospital at that point? So when I got there, and then they could kind of gone through that, you know, they said we're gonna call you're not in her now, and she'll be here, and then I had a nurse. I feel like I'm like are you to me she was like an angel like humans. They're issues. I not read and tells us here because my husband was at their either an office kind of after they just on the machines everybody. And so. Having her there and to tell my hand kept telling me, it was going to be okay. And then my doctor came in and explained to me kind auctions, and she said, you can go home if you want. We don't have to deliver today. Or you can say we can go ahead and induce labor. And I think again that likes and I think somewhere around in its win. Like, I heard the words Silber born and thought like. Possibility for me. Okay. Because I I mean, I heard the word before. But I always thought it in relation to eighteen hundreds. Yeah. On time ago or something that happened sometimes win. There was an issue with the pregnancy or the baby or something like that. Yeah. So oh, go ahead. When when when they're saying we can't bind a heartbeat, and now she's going into we can do it now or later, did you still have they given you a no in the article, you talked about what you know, what was the cause of. But did they tell you that at that time, or did you still not know? No for sure is like what I would guess just based on your medical history and everything signing probably local accident into the I don't know. We can't tell right now for sure. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing I think like not having any kind of for warning anything was wrong, really hard for me to wrap my mind. Like, no, he was fine. Yeah. And so. Yes. She kind of explained probably with the umbilical cord being grass really tightly nuts ended up. That's what it was. And it's just really like an uncommon being. I it's like. Typically, like one I think it's about one hundred babies about pregnancies are still looking which is to meet surprisingly highest. The US has a lot higher rates are a lot of other countries that have similar mad about Nedal technology engine. Have you looked into what why that is? I mean now does your research background kind of kick in. And I mean, some did you end up going back and looking at a lot of research around this. Yes, I looked at. At first it was really hard to like do that. Also like I felt like I needed all these answers. Yeah. It's gotten a little more distancing king kind of not feel like I don't know. It's just really hard for me to be like this is like it should ahead happened to me. Yeah. And so I think that yet. Maybe now reading research don't circuiting obsess over and can't see up at nine and try to figure stuff out. It's just more like reading to get more at formation in seeds. I guess that's maybe. About I mean, I don't remember any of my seized ever taught you little bit about mysterious in the beginning signs Mace to try that too. I mean, I don't remember anybody's thinking about stillbirth, and this is it just didn't compute I guess for me to back them happen. Yeah. And so, yeah, I think that insidiously like with my two other kids that had the ability record rat through when they were born and they were both. In common to have like the umbilical cord grass. I think this looking. It's like one in like ten thousand stillbirths would be caused by. Something that normally they even really monitor for because it's usually not an issue. Okay. So so then what was that like to that point where you still kind of thinking this isn't, you know, the he'll be okay. I mean was that what was part of the did you want to then deliver at that time? I mean was that. I just like I couldn't. Yeah. I just I face night kids. I don't even know what I would tell him or it was just too hard to think of that Antony in my mind. I just kept feeling like. They were like confuse and and. Great. Starts bargaining with God. Right. Right. Like, I know you can say. Like, all I just kind of it was pretty dark, especially that night. While I was in labor and waiting to deliver and just trying to like nine around something when I was so so it's oriented and just thinking cast v m state. Yeah. So you talked about in one of the I don't know if it was in our Email or in your art Cohen Email where he said one of the most striking things you've noticed as how prevalent guilt and shame come into play with with the breed. Moms was that starting to then during that process. I mean, especially during the bargaining or you know, what was that like? Yeah. So I think. Stephanie before we knew for sure what had happened. I just kept replaying the days before thinking, I should've come in earlier. I shouldn't know how could this happen? I'm not on that. Like what's wrong with me that I wouldn't? Realize this thing was going on, you know? And so I think that was really hard. My doctor actually helped a lot with that and talk through it. And just said, you know, there's no way she was only sign something's wrong is they fill of movement. And that's when you come into the hospital by that time, it's too late. Like, there's no way you would have known for a long time. I just couldn't get past that like just feeling like it was my fault today. Maybe something or the day before my kids in a little race a little fundraiser where they were doing last around school. And so my my three year old and had been there and watch them. And I thought like maybe it was as each picnics are right like trying to make. Sense. And I think also this into isolation really contributes to that feeling like gang Schultz shaming. Okay. Just kind of feel like. You don't want. People to know because they're gonna think you're care personnel. And that's the part where in no, maybe we're going to order, but that's the part that just breaks, my heart as therapist because I feel like I know maybe a clinical tool, maybe, you know, acceptance and commitment there be where if you're goal is to be there for your kids or to move. You know, whatever that is that it's like normal to have the thoughts, you know. And we're not saying that it's a bad to have the thought. But then is it a productive thought? But even as I'm saying that to somebody who is going through this. I feel like man this is not I don't even know what I'm saying. 'cause I really don't I can't. I don't know. I can't imagine what that's like. So I feel like even as as a as a therapist. You know, might my empathy meter kind of overflows, and then I feel like I go into just cliches, and I think that you had talked a little bit about that. Right. Where when people tell you, the, you know, you can have another one or or it's, hey, it's going to be okay. Or I mean, what helped you in that? Yeah. Are you go on that for a little bit? Like what helped her or what people say do or? It's good. Or, you know. So I think that helps them knows. When my friends I had Sittard, I couldn't really talk like I was just so. And sad that it was really hard taught. So I like after I texted my sister that I've been on on with and just said, hey, you know, this is what's going on? Can you call mom and dad and tell them, and then I kind of have my husband when he got there help with that like people and stuff that it was hard for me to talk cats win amended friends, we had moved from New Mexico not too for that. So I texted her and told her and she. Texting? And he's just like I'm so sue Asari I found out at the soccer air she's like at a soccer game. And just crying. Like, I don't know. What do and just knowing this? She here in the sheila's crime like -ffective her. I think was a lot more helpful than anybody's saying. It's gonna be okay and plan for you or for him, her whatever, I know like that's intention and a lot of people because they don't say something let me say something positive. And then does that pip does that play into the the the guilt or the shame of men why should be thinking positive to what's wrong with me? I mean does that play into that? Like, oh, I should think. I think it was more just like. Beginning they. No, what they're asking me to like, you're asking me to say that my child like it wasn't meant to be a cottiaux inside. You know, I think that it also kind of played into well assessment. It's like religious of like Doug is giving to handle and all that stuff. And I get a lot of that. I feel like most of the people that talks me, especially friends and family just that. I'm so so sorry, you know, and not I mean, that's all you can say, I'm so sorry. What can I do gonna do this like a what? Any way to fix it. It wasn't a need somebody to you know. Do anything. I just. Don't want to to be thrown deeper into the like why didn't. Is it makes it seem like the God's doing this to you because he knows it can handle it. I don't. Would never choose this. Like why that's being strong means. I don't want to strong or being handled things. I just thought like no that's not. And will you know? And so I think they. I think the, and I also think that it's important when people are trying to be supported in to realize that like just saying you're sorry sorry. And checking on you. And I don't know what to say. But I'm so sorry is really. So reassuring to just have can sit there and be with you in the status instead of like your. I read a book said she said it was by women that head heading Sirius' stillbirth in her being. So critics stimulator situation had no idea anything was wrong. And she said I feel like I'm a cautionary tale. Like, no one person. I don't want to be around pregnant women because the fray that whatever bad. Whatever I have is going to rub off another people. And I think that kind of plays into the shaming yachts. Your time when you're supposed to be really happy and excited and people are having baby showers in doing celebrate your baby and your baby dies, and what do you do with that? What you people do? Yeah. Yeah. No. I like, so I mean, really, it's more just this the be there with you to sit there with you kind of that whole definition, of empathy. Right. Mentioned maybe in where people say, I will do this for you or I mean, I've got a an old Cleese. Yes will leader that would say that you know, he would just always go mow somebody's lawn. Wouldn't ask would you know? There's like what can I do that kind of thing? But I just wanna real quick too. Because ideal a lot I remember when I was a brand new therapist, and I can't lie. I remember the first couple times. Right. Use those all these things will be for your good or you will be given more than you can handle thinking that. Oh, man, the love this, right? And just immediately feel like, oh, I know. I don't I that isn't helping me right now, you know, in I do feel like that's something that a lot of people. You know, they think that allow you know, Laura's probably never thought of this part. Right. I mean, but but it so much deeper than that. And I think. You realize like at least I that. I was making other people though awkward, okay? It was sort of like I didn't want to be around very many people bicker that I get it. I knew they didn't know what to say to me. And I didn't want them to feel weird about not knowing what to say to me or then being like our saying the wrong thing or whatever having this idea days. Yeah. I think because especially something like this where there's not there wasn't choice involved. There was an accident a car accident or something and seventy made a wrong turn or somebody. In the even like medically. Nothing was wrong except kind of this freak. Never happens that it was hard for me to guess that my mind around like. I don't know like the perfect odd. But he doesn't come in. And take away our agency ear that what we went about this case. Yeah. No agency. Like there was nothing. I felt like on the one hand I felt like it was my fault. And on the other hand, I felt like there was nothing. I could do to prevent it from happening to reconcile that. And then trying to feel like if I was really really sad regarding this should have happened to me or that. This was the planner net that I was. Thankful or whatever. Like just too much. Okay. I'm glad you address that. Because I mean, I do hear that when people are trying to process these things in again, I'm not even that's hard for me to do anything. But just sit there, and empathy. But you wanted to say, you know, it's not about the what had happened today's ago, or it's not this or you're not a bad person. Or it's not because you didn't pray enough or you you miss Sunday's or, but you know, in that moment, you just kind of advise to let disliked somebody kind of go with that a little bit. Let them get that out there. I mean, just you feel if somebody was kind of combating you on those thoughts was that not helpful. Yeah. I think for me it was more. Like, I felt like I knew sometimes being unreasonable when I was going feel like it's my fault. I know I this is so unfair to buy especially I felt like really do since of loss for my kids. Okay. Really hard to think. Like, my son. My oldest. Ten whom we found out. It was when he was over the moon excite, you know. And I thought that had been stolen in taint for. Your other ones that you got three girls after 'em, right? I have been oldest. He's ten and Natta eighty six year old and rewrote. And you just like that was really hard because he especially like. Like when people would say, whatever their little. Whole thing. Like, oh, everybody goes through hard times or something like that. And, you know, this is this thing that's like losing a job, or it's just not the same in even if it was like, this is my trial. I don't feel like it's seared. My kids have to read something that I can't even understand as a as an adult like why they have to confront that when they're tiny little and so. I think they. Yeah. I just think that like most of it is really people that are willing to listen to you. Okay. And not treat, Hugh like, I mean, I definitely think that you have to be sensitive to it and not just feel like having a baby hitting pregnant and while the Butler all of those things hit two. Yeah. You know at the same time, I think that sometimes being feeling like you're pariah where no one can talk to you. And no one knows. But they don't say anything is really hard to filling. It's really hard to navigate for family members. And friends that have an experience less. They don't know what day. Knows. I think. When I love this. So I think that we're going I so some of the questions that I had here were how to family members friends support, you know, a Burri parent in in in. How do they understand their children are how do they help their their children understanding? I mean, I feel one of the big takeaways is being being able to talk about it and not feeling like you have to go fix judge the person. Right. So said that one of the things when you you've attended group counseling for women and you've done some individual therapy. But I love this. You said in my experience giving voice to my feelings without being encouraged to quote, look on the bright side or move on have been the most helpful therapy. Is really as more about just being no not afraid to talk about it. But also not feeling like you have to fix it. So kind of being willing to kind of sit there with. For people are very action oriented in there. I want to do something for what I would recommend is doing things like sending a necklace that. I wear every day that has voters. My Brent since the. Because I feel like it just reminds me at something really small. It's a deal to me. Do it like sitting something like that? We're seeing on. Like a birthday or on like around holidays and saying like, hey, how're you doing? I know this might be our time a love say because I mean, I feel like, you know, I go back to my before therapists life of where I don't know. I don't know if they want to talk about this. I don't know if they wanna hear about this. But it's not as if you're not thinking about I had a brother pass away when I was twenty one US twenty four and I remember for a few years, even like, should I say to mom like you remember, this is Tim's birthday or not. It's like, of course, she's thinking about it. You know? So I think later on it was. Yeah. It's nice to say, hey, I'm thinking about you thinking about him. Yeah. So that kind of what you're saying don't be afraid to send those love that. By fruits. Either been part of her like top when I've talked to other moms that have this or something similar, unfit loss and China. I think a lot of people are just really terrified that everybody's gonna forget about their kid decide. You all onto that came big Kanus they connects into their child. Yeah. When they have other people this child's name and include them and say like. Getting Christmas ornament. If you're the grim getting Christmas ornament. If you get a Christmas the grandkids, including the baby this past or just little things like are so meaningful, and they help the parent get through that need to necessarily like fulled onto this like really hard like Greek I need to remember how sad I and because no one else. Yeah. So it's almost like being able to talk about it giving voice to the experience talking about, you know, saying saying, you know, about his name, and those sort of things I mean, that's like a whole shift to to take away. That would if everybody forgets right in and it will help you just continue to process at a good way a positive way. Yeah. And I think that it topped my kids to that one thing I've been really interested in kinda like something that I had thought if for this experience that I will more strongly about now. Kids in me to be told what's going on really concrete ways. Okay. Really confusing overwhelming. And if they I mean, it's really hard like at first, I just cried all the time. And I felt like I was going to scare my kid. And so I felt like I need to just be away from them. So they don't see me or whatever. And I think there is some about you don't want it like. Kids are very concrete. So it's like how they're feeling in the moment, and I would cry what second say like, I'm so sad. And then the next minute they would run up on play. Okay. You realize that? Yeah, they're not going to be. They shouldn't be sitting there just going over everything twenty four seven. But they still understand. What happened we had descended to have our kids the hostile to me. Go into hold him. We you about that. Right. Yeah. Okay. 'cause I didn't even know until working with some people that have gone through this that that's I mean, I love that. That's part of this. Right. I mean, and that's a big part of, hey, this is body in his his you'll you can hold him in a love that you took pictures of him. And so we take pictures had a good friend of ours. King to the hospital, she's far and she took pictures. And the kid hell them, and it was so sweet. Install many ways like such a beautiful experience that even though it was so heartbreaking. That's like the time in the hospital that I can look back and be like. Thankful that it happens. Like that piece happened for our family entertains because I felt like I was in such a dark place that I didn't I was just here at by that I was going to do wrong seeing. And I know how to my kids. I didn't know what to tell them. I know it's they should. And so for me are EDNA think it's really individual decision is really glad that we did not feel like my kids. Definitely feel very connected to him. We say cares. I'm every night big hopping out, and we have like on Valentine's Day, we said Valentine's into my mom, put out free cassisi, he's buried on my parents land. And so just things like that. I feel I. Help them realize that he's part of their family and into not just the sad scary thing that nobody can talk. You know? I know there's going to be people are going to listen to this that have experienced. This may be didn't know they didn't know what to do. And they didn't do that with their kids women again. No, no guilt or shame there. And you feel like in your opinion, it, hey, we could still even bring it up now or we could get the kids around and talk about it. And it's okay to talk about, you know, their their brother or sister. And you've like it would be healthy to kind of try to start to normalize that more. If someone hasn't done that. So I think for our situation we felt like the kitchen Pap. Yeah. I think that's really individual to hold him. I helped him the whole time we could like. I just wanted with me. Yeah. I know that's not this thing everybody, and I think that it has to be really individual experience and family in health providers should just for whatever. Yeah. I think the template for like this to do things. I do think that not ever addressing it with kids really like addressing. I'm really abstract ways is really confusing to go kid. And I think that's where I was one with that too. Right. So if someone feels like man, I didn't handle it right at this point. Hey, no, guilt or shame around that, you know, move toward whatever is into for you. So right. 'cause I know I get questions about, you know, even if somebody says, how many kids do you have, you know, and if it was so when you get that question what how do you answer that? I mean for you. So that was the big thing at first, I just. Sat on the couch every night, and I was like going through my mind of like how I like how we go forward. Whether we do now. And that was one of my things I just kept on has been like, what am I going to say to me ask me how many kids we have what do I do? And so for me what I've kinda get. I don't think there's like a template. I don't think there's a right answer answer. A lot of the women that I've talked to students in Las a lot of them say, you know, like in my situation five. Let's in heaven or okay? I was. I was shuffling papers to get to my notes at the end of the article on the gotten institute, which I will link to in men, I hope that everybody who if they if they know someone experiences, even if not would read that because there's I think there's some really important stuff, about empathy. I wanna I wanna talk about that in the article too. But you're the you're sign off your signature, Dr Laura Sparrow has a PHD in counselor education research focused on supporting children with developmental disabilities in their families, Lauren her husband, Mark Levin. Austin Texas with their children Benson. Brian Bailey and Bill or Mark also angel baby. Boaty who lives in heaven. I think that is beautiful right? Yeah. And for me, it's as easier to talk about it if I'm typing it or media. It's a little bit easier for me to share typically when I like in meeting. Someone new may ask me it kind of just depends on the situation. Sometimes. Stay or because I don't feel like I can handle the follow-up absence where I don't do it. And sometimes I by the Nicole my kids to my kid, I realize like they like. They'll ear for kid. And my three year old was like, no bathing rather vote he died. And then the Turk captures. Sorry. Really awkward, and you kind of feel bad for making them bad. And it just becomes this thing being. So after I after that happened than I've been to know what to say just kind of broke down into tears Mike Pence Royal sitting there going. Then we talk about instead like. You can answer that. However, you what we know part of every family if you wanted to tell people about him, you can't if you don't wanna tell people, and it's something that's more special in private. That's okay to you. And he got out to be all are never. I love that. I really do. I feel like that's that's there's so many good things that I think people are gonna take away from this of that that some of the stuff I hear is. Sometimes I wanna say this. Sometimes I wanna say this almost like, I'm crazy. Right. You know? And no, you're you're experiencing it. You're there like say, no template, and the cliche that I do think is correct is no real way to the no creek way to grieve or loss. I mean, this is like this is the year year process because this is unique to you. Right. Absolutely. There's a party, and I want it before we get to the one of the things in the article when there's just feel I was finding myself almost getting angry of thinking of what people could think of when when you know when. You're talking about holding boaty or taking pictures of. And if somebody doesn't know what this is about, you know, if anyone thinks, oh, man, I I wouldn't do that. Or whatever that's the part where I wanna say, you know, don't that's a keep that thought yourself or on the inside and just Pathy, right? Which is and I think that kind of segues into the in the article that you wrote you talked about posted a picture of a drawing that your five drew for Bodey with the caption. I love you sweet boy on Instagram. Right. Kind of talk about what happened next there? Typically around like, he was born on October seventh and so on the seventh and every month a lot of times, I'll post a little picture or something like for me. It's just a way to remember Naan and to get people like. Like, my family and my friends make good friends a little bit of connections Hugh hand because they don't have realize they don't have this think connection with him that. I did. Because of the circumstances situation. And so anyway, something and then it kind of he next me that was like even stop housing things. Like, it's really depressing and she should get over it. Exactly, right. Where it was like, that's really weird. And so. I thought pull my sister was like this like what do I do too? That's the meanest thing I've ever heard just blocker. Never. And it wasn't even anybody. That knows me. Well, so I just think that for issue, obviously. And then I started going back into the like, oh, my I were sharing. And I like people think I'm trying to get attention or that I'm making a big deal about this. Like, maybe not like feeling like, oh, we'll maybe even though, you know, I feel like my time that he's just as part of my family of other kids. Maybe speaking something different, you know. And so I think that going into not Scott with really knock productive threw me. Yeah. And at read other people's experiences. Feeling you know, like their kid was left out. Whatever the Christmas is soda. And then them saying that people saying you need to stop. It doesn't need to be about you. It's not always about you doing. Not right. Like, right. If you want to include them, I don't think anybody should be worse to talk about a loss of they don't want to hear. At thing token, nobody should tell someone this loss child that then need to be over it. Or were you meet down? Right. Like, you know. Hey, sorry. That's making you uncomfortable. When you look on right? You know, Instagram off, right? Yeah. And again, one of the good things about social media that. I don't have to get her access to see that like triggering. For her. Okay. I'm not gonna myself situation where I'm second guessing every single time, I do and I liked it. I mean, you would talk to that. Where even you know people. We all agreed. She was unkind. I shouldn't give her a second thought. But then it's like the brain's going gonna do. It's going to do. Right. So then after that, then you'll go through a no have I been at and really our goal is getting you you, quote, it's closed off Antic as you can be right. Just it's like, okay. If that's the way, I'm processing, that's the way in processing. And that's what I love it. You're you're talking with your kids about this. I mean, I love that that you're the one that gets to drive the narrative, and they going to be people that bring their own baggage in do even viewing something or hearing this or you know, and it's in okay, they can do them. And I think for my kids it's been they all a little bit differently. Seeing then in the way that they cannot with him. And the things that they understand a name my eight year old whenever the incident Harvard happened, and I live in tears in going after like mom, it's a king. We can tell him baby brother in heaven. And I was like we can't. To stay. I feel like I'm betraying by don't say anything. I also feel like I'm exposing myself like a really vulnerable part of myself to attorney camp fear that I've never met a by talking about it. And so just seeing there like NSF in their ability to take something really complex ended. Simple. Sweet truce it they understand it. His been really helpful for me. And I think over that we will little little bears that may I was pregnant we have one that was made for Bodey. And so sometimes like when what? They'll say like what does not make their book that we read the at night that. This call her boby. But you know, I just think that we're that's up to me like that's been really healing for me too. And so I think just being really. Open with kids and not again, not forcing them to talk about it. If they don't wanna talk about it. But making sure that they know that they can talk about it. If there ever feeling sad if they wanna share at school, they can they don't ever have to. I think that's kind of three way like this last year wrecks that like, okay, I'm struggling, but I wanna make sure that my kids. In processes and not this look back and be like, man. Remember when mom was so sad. And she. About anything. Yeah. And I feel like part of that too. It sounds like for you is and let them know. It's okay. For them to talk about it. I feel like, you know, if target you could have been, you know, we don't say that. But I'm so glad you're saying. Hey, that's that's she said it in. Let's talk about it. And I'm not afraid to have those conversations right in the article you said, and I just want to quote, this everyone should be allowed to agree on their own terms and on their own time line bereaved parents need to be balloted supported in their efforts to remember memorialize their children. There is no limit to the depth or duration of the grief and pain associated with the death of a child that that touched me, I know talking even with my own mama of not too long ago. Various my brother died thirty years ago, or so, and it's like, you know, obviously, she still thinks about him in. That's okay. There's no reason. Hell somebody really, you know, it's been that long a bright. That's not a productive comment right after Barbara pass away. Something about how she had passed away when she was like four years old. And they mentioned that article that still when somebody would talk about at her ask her about it. She would always tear up. Oh, no. I couldn't sword. Like, I should have brought that up right for me. And I think a lot of people what you said if you're not reminding them that their child. They they haven't forgot right. Yeah. Chess. In chess a lot of times like the like frying in having that we like somebody else cares off your members is just so sweet that. Yeah. Does make you cry. It's hard to make shocked that bit not. Why would you evergreen that? You know? Yeah. Laura. I this was wonderful. I'm gonna linked to the article. And I just really really appreciate you being willing to share. This was I don't know. I feel like you've helped me now to be a better therapist. I feel like people are going to take away from this. It's okay to let your kids talk about difficult things, and even helping a lot of people that are going to their friends go through this. They're going to be able to sit with them, and and be able to kind of have the conversations. And that was really appreciate you doing that date summits off Ahah with naked send it to you. But I just after once we started kind of of at the questions, I should lead to some resources. Okay. Starting on little Instagram that has like a week tree two. Oh, my works. Listen to Austin. It's really started yesterday gleese. Okay. I'll keep working on and Austin that to you and yet people have questions or what's you get some resources that. I think have been really helpful. What's the Instagram account Laura's fair perfect? Okay. Okay. Dr Laura so I will link like crazy. I don't know if you'd be willing to I'd love to talk to you about the work you've done with the children disabilities. And that sort of thing may be at a future time. Okay. Thanks so much, Laura. Hey, I'm gonna hit stop. Then hang on just a second. Vessel motions fine. Science. Pushes a day. Placed. Voting system in. Pushes things that. Discount. The chances. Until the two. Shut. Don't explore. Understanding. And hard you. She. Strengths.
The Virtual Couch
Aired 2 months ago 62:51
How Donating Crypto Can Help You Save on Taxes - Ep.94
Everyone. Welcome to unsheathe, your no, hey free source for all things crypto. I'm your host Norrish. If you've been enjoying unchain popping IT of his top rating review that helps other listeners find the show we trust is in do fundraising platform that allows you to donate crypto to nonprofits. We trust will match your donation through giving Tuesday, November twenty seven go to we trust dot, I O slash unchained to make your donation within months. Cryptocurrency, anti money laundering regulations. Go global. Are you ready avoid stiff penalties are blacklisting by deploying affective anti money laundering tools exchanges in crypto businesses. The same tools used by regulators safer traces, securing the crypto economy in honor of today's holiday giving to day the topic. For today's episode is philanthropy and crypto here to speak about the issue are Connie Lippi, the founder and executive director of Vickers. And Joe Waldman. The executive director of give crypto dot org. Welcome connie. And Joe thanks for having us. Thanks. Let's start with your backgrounds Connie, how did you get a bitcoin and come to launch bicker? So I I learned about bitcoin probab-, I'm guessing it was probably back in two thousand and eleven two thousand twelve but it was more of just something that I was kind of watching an aware of in the background. And then I attended the first bitcoin foundation conference in San Jose in two thousand thirteen which has become sort of this this event that blossoms I think a lot of startups in the community early on. And that was when I came up with this idea of bid give and it really wasn't on my radar in any way. It's kind of came to me being in that environment and being inspired by the topics and audience and potential of what I saw coming out of the community. And I I immediately wanted to see. See some way of capturing what was about to happen with this industry, which is now five years later into something that could give back and have a social impact and help move the needle on on social issues, globally and just for listeners who don't know. It's because your background actually was in nonprofits. Right. Can you describe that a little bit? Yes. It was. Yeah. So I was in the environmental field for about fifteen years. I'm still involved as a board member on a couple we're gonna but worked in the environmental space in California for fifteen years largely with nonprofits and a variety of roles, but the majority of the time was spent on finding funds for them to do. Good work and being creative about that and strategic about that. And in a lot of cases, creating a public sources of funding through. Through advocacy and lobbying efforts. So that's kind of how I made that connection to this the potential of this technology in this industry to be able to give back and make a difference in the nonprofit sector, and Joe what about you? What was your background? And how did you get into crypto much more of a carpet? Bagger I have a software and. Four prophets startup background. I connected with Brian Armstrong, who's the founder of gift crypto earlier this earlier this year until eighteen heard about the the opening first director, and that point thought is an interesting role sort of working with them a little bit informally, actually before I was hired and the result of that work change, it from this is cool to this something I have to do this is this looks like really important really interesting really impactful work and started a few months ago and just to fill that out. So what were you doing software before? And then how did you hear about the coin are crypto and before you heard about cryptic? What what were your thoughts about what it could do? Yes. So so quickly my background like suffer engine near worked for big companies for the first ten years of my career like Qualcomm in Kabaya in sprint the last ten years. I've been serial entrepreneur to startups one was sold a Twitter. In one died a relatively painful death. I I heard about bitcoin recently, maybe two years ago or or shall we say blockchain, generally? And I think is any- is anybody with with technology background and some degree that election curiosity. You couldn't help it become fascinated by immediate by immediately see into each of your company's Connie, what does BIC of do. We are a nonprofit. So our focus is leveraging bitcoin and blockchain technology for the nonprofit sector in on a global scale, and we early on since we started longtime ago in all this was a lot of it was outreach in education with the nonprofit sector and mainstream NGOs about the technology itself and also fundraising for them in bitcoin. And then over the last couple of years, we've been more focused on developing our our. Donation platform, which is called give track. And we're delivering a technology platform that brings together all the benefits of crypto in blockchain technology where donors and nonprofits and the public can all benefit from the faster cheaper more secure transactions. And then the transparency of the blockchain to watch the money moving knowing Bert got to how it was used. And then we also have a more less blockchain oriented, but a project results component as well. So the donors in the public conceive with pictures videos in narrative reports what the results the impact was on the ground, and who are some of your partners in how do you choose which ones to work with the over the years we've worked with a wide range of of NGOs in would say in size as well as mission. Some of the earliest ones we worked with were save the children the water projects and medic mobile if there's been survived largest partnerships with multiple projects and more recently with give track we've attracted smaller more nimble organizations that are excited about the technology. That are doing a variety of different types of projects all over the world. And we're about to launch the next version of give track in early December. And we have a series of NGOs lined up to be our launch partners for that as well. So we're kind of all over the place. I would say geographically mission mission wise as well his size of organization and to to talk about the give track offering a little bit more. When you talk about providing transparency through that product does that require you to identify the Wallace of all the different entities that are helping to deliver these charitable goods or services. Ideally, that would be the case. Yeah. But it's you know in reality when when working with these NGOs and with projects on the ground. It's a lot more challenging than one would think. And I think that's why a lot of other projects are looking at closed systems or more private block jeans or cerium kind of things and we're using bitcoin and bitcoin blockchain and set mix. It a lot more challenging to do something like that. So yeah, it's it's an evolution like right now. It's the bitcoin doesn't necessarily have a way of registering and confirming any particular address we used to love the public static addresses, especially for something like an NGO. But a lot of the bitcoin services have walked, you know, backwards from those because of security reasons, so it's it's a challenge, I think eventually will get there. But right now, we're chipping away at some of the basics around how to make this happen in the real world on the ground. So that's kind of further out than when you talk about transparency through give check what does it mean? If it's not that. Well, everything is on the the blockchain so you can see everything on the bitcoin blockchain, and then we're also working with our S K to notarize everything on their on their blockchain in smart contracts as well. But yeah, they're still as with anything, you know, that that led. Title of transparency to the last mile in reality isn't really even happening in today's world at scale, you know, being able to even use it on the ground, especially in these more remote areas or even being able to convert it on in in developing economies become a challenge. So, yeah, it's it's more just blood bridging the transparency of the blockchain itself, and then the RS K technology as well. Meaning like people contract the funds, but if the Wallace aren't identified than later on in some fashion, people might be able to figure out if one of the Wallace is actually not associate with the charity. But in the moment, they can't or something like, I I don't understand how can be transparent. If I mean, obviously, you can watch which addresses, but if you don't know who's actresses whose than I don't understand when you say it's transparent like what what is it offering exactly law. Good question. I think compared to what we have in today's day. You know, it's it's tremendously huge improvement because we don't have in any way today to see transparently on public ledger. What's happening with funds that donors give to NGOs in the end up in a you know, who knows where? So the technology that the blockchain offers is a huge step forward in that. Since I don't personally, I don't know any entity on the bitcoin blockchain since it's it's truly decentralized distributed system that could confirm any wallet address as third party. Right. So you would always be trusting that someone says, this is my wallet. Or this is a wallet for this NGO in this purpose when they still could be theoretically making that up unless you have some sort of third party confirming that somehow which I'm not aware of too big is not like I thought maybe you guys would be that entity. But you're not I don't know how that would be possible. Yeah. I mean, if you know away that be awesome. I'd love to talk more about that. But I don't think it's possible to to to do that. They're still a level of of trust that's involved where someone's claiming a wallet or and Hundres belongs to a particular person or entity. I mean, I guess you could do something the way the banks to know where he would say to them. Okay. You know, send me this point zero zero two to three bitcoin or something some like. Sinoe strange number, and then you could just send it back. But then you would know. Okay. That's their address. It could be something like that. I'm just making it up. But yeah, I mean, we are of course, going through the whole KYC process and on boarding process with the NGOs themselves that are on the platform. But I think what you're asking about as many steps down the line when they're actually spending the money somewhere in the world for some particular thing how we would confirm that address is that I thought that's what you're asking about yet. Will it's more. I mean, it could be any any type of address I just was asking what transparency meant and thought that it did mean that you were identifying some of the wallets or something like that. But yet how granular it gets would would be I guess up to you. But actually one other thing I wanted to ask was so you're sending them bitcoin directly. Are you always certain that there are cryptic changes in those places? Is so that those recipients can cash out or do you help them cash out or you know, what do they do when they receive the bitcoin because I imagine some of them are working places where there may be aren't really good on and off ramps to the crypto world, right? Yeah. That's definitely being our biggest challenge is is the lack of ecosystem globally, especially in the areas that we want to do work and that NGOs are doing Merck. But yeah, we do work directly with them. So so far we've had a small select number of pilot. So we've worked really closely with NGOs in the projects in we help them identify a good projects in locations that we think there's some liquidity. We hope there's an ecosystem on the ground where they can use it. We've come up against a lot of challenges even where we originally knew. There was a functioning ecosystem because of regulatory issues and all kinds of his shoes constantly evolving. Ecosystem. Especially when you operate globally. But yeah, that's that's the idea. And with the new version, and there's a lot more liquidity built into the platform itself. Because we understand the limitations a lot better now. And so the expectation is that you know, least currently there are fewer opportunities to use it on the ground or even convert it so we've built in integration with uphold. And they the donors can use that for variety of different currencies in both yacht end crypto to make a contribution. But the nonprofits can also go through uphold as well in offers a lot of different ways of converting it, but we're encouraging. You know, the whole point of the platform is that we're encouraging them to keep it in bitcoin move it on the blockchain for that transparency for the benefit of faster cheaper, more secure. Transactions to get the money there on the ground. So the platform is built to encourage that behavior and be ready for it when the ecosystem catches up to our vision. But yeah, it's very limiting. I mean, the ecosystem is extremely limited especially in developing economies in remote areas. So you just mentioned the your partnership with uphold. But you only work with bitcoin. Does that mean that you'll eventually plan to add other crypto assets, or why do you guys only work with bitcoin wall? So right now. Yeah, we work with bitcoin. We only have an MVP. So we had a really small budget to build that in. It was way too complicated. Ten twelve anything else? But the new version that we're about to launch does integrate with uphold. So it opens up a lot of possibilities. It was just something that took us a long time in required resources in order to build an integral. Wait until with all the legal restrictions around money. Transmitting licensing money service business stuff, and which is probably boring stuff that you don't wanna talk about. But it took us a long time to to figure that out. But yeah, so it will open up that opportunity. So the new platform is not live yet. But we'll offer integration through uphold for multiple Fiat and multiple crypto currencies. Okay. I actually do want to ask about the regulatory stuff. But not just yet. Let's turn Joe to find out. Joe when you describe what give crypto does. Yes. So our mission is to finish empower people by distributing crypto, Chrissy. Clearly, that's kind of a big goal with that means in the short term in using normal words is we give cryptocurrency directly to people in need though. That said that's kind of a weird thing to do if you have the least bit of cynicism, and you should you. First question should be why are you giving crypto poor people? Just give them cash if you're. Really wanna help about? And I agree with. Glad I got baited that pre empathize. So I share that cynicism. If the recipient is in a place with a functional finish system or a somewhat competent government. But if one or both those isn't true, it could be argued that that crypto might be more helpful than than some examples of of broken money would be hyperinflation some examples of broken government of which there are many were specifically focusing on stateless citizens refugees. So most of our work right now revolves around testing that hypothesis can people in these situations actually make use of cryptocurrency. And and basically what we're doing is sprinkling crypto into a number of different situations. And kind of seeing what happens, and I know you kind of did that for your work trial take to get this role. Can you describe what you did there in? Well, that would that was very very early stage. And rather crude I say, but yet the so I while I was interviewing for this job. I I don't think quite knew what to do with me because this is the being right Armstrong, and some some of the some of the other people who are who are hiring for this role. So they gave me a thousand dollars a theory of and said go give this people in need report back to us in a few days. And as I mentioned previously that was a really, hopefully, helpful experience or experts for them to see if I'm worth a damn, but it was more helpful for me to see what this what this is really like. And and how much impact you can really have distributing funds in this way. We did things like giving some money to some restaurants in Venezuela. It asked them to convert it into to cost effectively converted into a number of meals at help people in their neighboring community. Probably wouldn't be able to eat at the restaurants. We. Gave it to a gentleman in a who works in a refugee camp in Rwanda and had them distributed food to to the refugees. So is it was a very much scattered or shock at approach. But but was was was really it's working we've continued to civil or spices. But hopefully, more deliberate more organized, and and ultimately were more educational from our it to set of curiosity in the beginning when you were describing how crypto works it sounded like you were looking for applications where the actual money itself is going to be what the people that you were serving needed, but just know for the work trial, the examples you gave her ones where he were giving money and expecting people to get food. Instead. So is not a kind of how you're approaching it. Now, like where you're it's almost like earmarking funds. Exactly. Yeah. Yes. Good. Good observation yet now were were being a little more. Disciplined about making sure that the or vaccinating the likelihood that the the ultimate recipient is receiving crypto in their pocket of not some in-kind donation. So we're testing a number of of vectors in terms of the technical sophistication of the recipient the size frequency and duration of the transformations. The macroeconomic situation of of of the recipients said there are whole number of other vectors to test. But yeah, yeah, we're we're we're trying to do the first thing which arguably is about easier to ask somebody to convert some crypto into into some either Fiat or or some some good and then transferred. It's it's more challenging to give people crypto directly. But that's we think that's where the real opportunity lies. Yeah. We'll can you talk a little bit more about how you're figuring out. What those applications could be because as you mentioned the goals of give crypto are to help people in need. But also promote the adoption of cryptocurrency. So sometimes those things. Will be aligned and then other times, maybe they won't be. So how do you kind of figure out like, what are some examples that you think are kind of prime examples of when that makes sense? And because we are using crypto to help people were obviously, not going to be held be able to help everybody there sort of a a sad irony in this that the the needier you are right now, at least the less likely you are to be able to actually use crypto. So so we are having to focus our efforts on on areas where there is some degree of technical sophistication. But also some some degree of of impetus or or need for an alternative financial product. But say so like, I said, we are hypothesis right now, and we're probably probably gonna Volve this as we as we can need to experiment apotheosis that people have the highest likelihood of using crypto as a currency utilities in places where their money's broken or government is broken. So we're focusing on those those places specifically on on a groups that have a higher likelihood of of actually being able to use crypto. But also are genuine need of help. And then are there any like those populations that you describe tend to be quite vulnerable refugees stateless people and in a way at least for now when give crypto is in its early days. You're kind of almost like running financial experiments are there ethical issues around that. And if so how do you figure those out for sure the radicals issues in we're probably still figuring out what what the best way to grapple with those? No, we have were definitely not working in the most fragile of places where there are serious privacy socio political risks at play while we're this nation were we're focusing on areas where where the ethical risks are proud a little bit lower. But that's certainly something that we're figuring out right now, and and will continue to evolve our thinking on and we've been talking a little bit about how because it is such. Early days in crypto, and especially the populations that you guys are targeting are particularly in areas where maybe there isn't an easy way to turn crypto into Feodor to use their crypto. So if you could walk me through some of the examples that you feel like were actually affective that you got into this sweet spot where you had a population that could benefit from cryptocurrency in particular, and yet at the same time, they could also turn that into something, you know, that would be useful in in their economy. Can you just walk me through what you think some of the best examples are there's one great example, just over the border from Venezuelan Brazil, we found a minister of church who who was willing to helps out. He's been because he's so close to that as well in border. He's been helping economic refugees from Venezuela for years now. And we we asked him to a couple of things for us. I. Target twenty families that were in most need in his community twenty Venezuelan families nearest church. So we helped with that. But he also set up a a little Bodega in his church where where we so we were he targeted twenty time as we gave them a basic income of one dollar per day per family. He also set up a store where inside of his church believe it or not where these families go and buy food, and basic supplies, but not just spend their crypto. If they'd prefer to get cash local cash, rallies, it Brazil, he would give them cash as well. Or instead of of selling the food. So it's a small it's contrived, but it is a closed loop experiment where these these these families would receive crypto at then either get cash or get get food for the crypto at a couple of interesting things have happened one. We've we've learned that these families are for the most part taking this food and bring it back to Venezuela to the town. They're from advantage Walea. So the next phase of the experiment is to do some. Riddance slash ambassador program where these families help us identify more families in Venezuela that will will add to the program. Additionally, some of these families have said, you know, the ministers great, he really helps us out. But he selling us Brazilian food. We wanna buy Venezuelan food if you give me a little bit of money, I can set my own Bodega and sell Venezuelan food to to my to my country people. So so we're seeing already to get very early stage for pulmonary already seeing some kind of entrepreneurial initiative, and some organic marketplace thriving up that that that we think is super interesting, and you know, and something like that where where people are sort of helping themselves in his tribute is is probably part of the longer term story of give crypto. Wow, this is really really interesting. I like it. It's almost. Yeah. It's like a it's like creating your own little what do they call it in economic developments owner something anyways, we're gonna keep discussing. Seeing some of the other problems that charitable giving with crypto can solve. But first I'd like to take a quick break for our fabulous sponsors face. It regulations can stall or kill fast-moving crypto business new FAFB e you cryptocurrency AM L laws are coming soon. You could be hit with stiff fines or blacklisted, no matter where your servers are in the world prepare now deploy the same powerful safer. Trace tools used by regulators. Protect your assets, streamline your compliance programs and keep your exchange or crypto business out of the regulators crosshairs. Learn how effective anti money laundering tools help keep your crypto business safe entrusted. Learn more at cypher trace dot com slash unchained, cypher traces securing the crypto economy, we trust helped you make the world better place. We trust is a new fundraising platform that allows you to donate crypto to nonprofits. That are changing the world for the greater good. We trust connects you to organizations who care about most. So. So you can support their work to inspire you to give we trust will match your donation through giving Tuesday on November twenty seventh. Go to we trust dot, I O slash unchained to make your donation. If you want your crypto donations to go farther, go to we trust dot IO slash unchained and donate through November twenty seventh. I'm speaking with Connie Olympia bit give and Joe woman of give crypto so. Yeah. So let's talk big picture. What are the problem, or what is the problem where problems in charitable giving that crypto can help solve? So the things that we try to focus on this actually a lot of benefit. So sometimes our messages far to deliver. But we try to focus on is not the fundraising piece because that seems to be what gets, you know, the the surface level excitement almost like a gateway, but it doesn't really leverage the technology. Right as much so we try to focus on some of the next steps. The obvious things we can talk to them about which is well, if you're if you're gonna fund raising bitcoin might not keep it in bitcoin or crypto in order to use the blockchain and the ecosystem that's that's been built to move that money, which is happens faster. It's more secure, and it's transparent on a blockchain, which it's also less expensive with some people will argue with me about that one time when the fees were high for a few months, right? But we're ten years in to at least bitcoin, and that was an anomaly period, and I we use bitcoin everyday, and it's fractions pennies to send money, globally almost instantly. So there's a lot of money saved as well. So I think those are really great arguments, especially on the fees in the speed, the security issue is definitely there. But for NGOs, it's less understandable or less immediately, exciting to them. But as soon as we get into. To with them, you know, the benefits of cartography in the benefits of things like multi signature technology, then they start to understand the benefits of that as well. And then of course, the transparency aspects, I think are huge. I mean, as we've discussed there some challenges with it right now because the ecosystem isn't really built out, but the potential is there the technology provides that opportunity, and once we're able to build out the infrastructure in the ecosystem to catch up to the potential of this technology, the benefit is there to be able to see in real time money moving all over the world where it's going what it's being used for and to me that's revolutionary. So I'll stop there. Like, I said, it's a lot. So sometimes it's hard to to get it all across and do you have stats on the fees that charities pay for doing things like cross border payments or transfer? Errs and also for the speed issue. I don't know if their stats around how long it takes to get funds to those in need after a disaster. Because I imagine that the comparison with cryptos can be a pretty pretty stark for both of those on both of those fronts. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so we have I mean, I don't know if you call it stats because they kind of wide range as far as different ways of working in the world places systems services, all of those things. But generally, what we say like, we we know that fees when you use the the traditional systems right now can be up to thirty percent, which is huge when you talk about paying fees on either side just for the banking receiving and sending this usually some sort of transfer fee in the middle. You may end up going to something like a Western Union where they alone can charge. Twelve thirteen percent. And you physically have to go to a Western Union location and stand in line and wait to get your money. And in some cases, it gets stuck in a Bank account. There's a lot of governments around the world that have their, you know, their fingers in everything. So even though it appears as though the money is in a Bank account that belongs to the NGO in wherever Nairobi or something. They may have to give somebody a little bit to get it out of the Bank account. Right. So there's a lot of things. I mean, I don't mean like a, you know, a legit banking fee. I mean, like, you know, someone's bribing them and saying give me a little bit. And then you can get your money kind of thing. So there's all kinds of stuff that goes on. And we've heard wait times could be up to a month as well. I think that's pretty ext. Stream. But it depends on where you're sending the money what kind of regulations in government constraints are placed in that area. But it could it could take up to a month. Jeff physically got the money. So yeah, I think you know, obviously, there's places where the fees and the times may be less than that. But those are I think the extreme the extreme scale an earlier, you kind of outlining the difference in the usage of blockchain technology applied here versus the criminal assets themselves. So why don't we break it out a little bit further? So what are the ways that you think blockchain technology can help solve the problems in charitable giving. And then what are the ways that crypto assets in particular can be used to solve those issues or different issues insured giving. That's a good question. I mean, I think in most cases they go hand in hand in this context. I mean, there are lots of other contexts where peop-. Are experimenting with use cases of blockchain technology that may not necessarily require of financial value or crypto currency attached to the box chain. But I think in philanthropy and we've mostly stuck with bitcoin. It's it all kind of goes together. So it's the infrastructure itself of the blockchain provides this different system outside of banks in government where in many cases, there can be fees delays fraud. Whatever it takes takes it outside of all of that. It provides speed of transmission of funds, lower fees cryptographic security to convert or to transfer excuse me. So all of those things are I guess separate from crypto. But it's really what are you? What are you transferring on the blockchain, you're transferring that value, right? So the kind of goes hand in. Hand I think as far as crypto currency itself is concerned again to me, it's all tied to the whole system. Because if you want to have a way to empower people and reach them directly peer to peer in a way that they have control over their funds or whatever it is. You're giving them that's value. You still need the blockchain ecosystem to provide that Joe or take on. It is the if you abstract certain level charities basically do three things they targeting descending who gets the help distribution delivering the help. And they do tracking determining if the help helped unfortunately, most current charities do these things in a rather centralized matter by privileged Ivy leaguers a liberal arts degrees. What if we could create a platform that pushes as much of this work the targeting this revision the tracking out to the? Edge where there's the local knowledge, where's the creativity? There was the true desire to help that that's a very interesting platform if you will to build, and you can you can incorporate some blockchain primitives using staking compensation like incentives to we believe to to do these things much more effectively at a local level in the communities where the help us actually needed. And how do you measure the impact that you have? 'cause I imagine that a lot of as even for actually for both of your organization's because big is working with pretty different organizations have crypto obviously is doing different experiments. No in at some point. We'll just have different initiatives. How do you kind of do an apples tablets comparison to figure out where you're getting the most bang for your buck? I'd love hear colonies answer. But but measurement is super difficult. And you there's some there's some really great charities all doing a lot of work around this. For example, give directly were were there. Even going to the length of taking saliva swabs of the recipients of their of their basic income to measure cortisone levels because that's the parents marker of stress. So the at our the way we're thinking about this is what are the things that we can measure at scale with software and one of the things that we can measure with boots on the ground. I e the saliva swabs. We obviously prefer to the ones that that are scalable miserable software, but we're certainly going to want to do both, and what's what's kind of the right ratio. And maybe if we find a statistically, significant subset of people were helping doing the more hands on labour-intensive measurement. That's that. That's that's an okay approach. And when you say like measured myself wear, I'm assuming like he would still need to. To figure out which metrics to track which again, I feel like might be apples to oranges between projects right for sure. For sure there. There are going to be different goals of different projects. This is. This is a very big question of big subject that that were. I don't have a great answer on right now. We're still experimenting how we're gonna help expert with how we're gonna help. So. Yeah. Absolutely. Hopefully, you've got the types of projects constrain to a number of sets, and at you understood, okay? For for type, a these the metrics we care about for type b these other mattress we care about in Connie, how are you guys handling that at big of? So we was mentioning earlier through the gift track platform, we have a another component that's about reporting. So right now the way nonprofits typically work is you give them some money. You might think it's going to something in particular. And then. At the end of the year. You get an annual report that tells you all the things they did as an organization throughout the year. You don't really know what happened in between? Right. And you're also waiting a long time to to get that report. So with give track it's all in real time, and that's the benefit of using crypto and blockchain technology. So we have the ability for NGOs to be more transparent in accountable through the through the platform with the tracking of funds, but also the reporting so they can report back in in milestone. So as a donor and also the public you're seeing impact in progress as they go up front, you know, what their fundraising for whatever the project is. And explain to you what they're going to do with the money. And then you're able to see them making progress towards that along the way, and then in the end, what's completed so you have. To sort of feedback. Loops one is the blockchain data and the finance data. The other is this reporting pictures videos that kind of thing, but as far as being standard is like you're saying with metrics and things it is really challenging because if you wanna be open to a number of different types of organizations with a variety of missions and projects in places that they work in the world. There's an exponential amount of metrics you could try to to follow. So we're right now, we're trying to be pretty flexible about that. And we're asking them to share what the impact was in in some more standardize ways like number of people impacted or if it's you know, education. How many how many more kids were in the classroom from how many more hours or if it's a water project? You know, how many people are served by that project, those kinds of things there's also health impacts and enve-. Environmental impacts in. It's very difficult to standardize metrics for those things. One other thing I wanted to ask you guys about as you guys have different approaches in for instance, bit give is focused on supporting existing projects. And then give crypto is focused on creating projects. What are the pros and cons of each of these strategies, and why did you decide on the win that you're going with? So my background. We talked about earlier is in the nonprofit sector. So I've worked with a lot of NGOs doing a lot of amazing work and. I think many people look at the nonprofit sector, and they see these headlines like what happened in Haiti or you know, there's a number of stories around what happened to the money, and it it really negatively affects the the sector overall in most organizations. Most people in those organizations are doing good work, and it's their lively hood to to give back right, nobody most people don't make a whole lot of money working for an NGO. So my goal was to support the existing organizations that are out there in the professionals that work for them and the knowledge base that has been built in that sector around the the work, they do 'cause like I was just saying there's so many different causes emissions environmental work in public health, working -education refugees in humanitarian aid and relief efforts. I mean you name. I'm it and people are specialized in knowledgeable inexperienced in these things doing good work. So my goal is to support them lift them up. Find ways to leverage technology to make them more effective make them more efficient provide tools for accountability. That breezes the whole sector raises the bar for the whole sector, and ultimately drives more impact in the end through improving efficiencies and improving standards of accountability in those kinds of things Joe. Yeah. Our philosophy is definitely a little bit different were first of all we're very much aligned with the the direct cash transfer belief around around helping that cash solve every problem. But for the most part people in need, no what they need and they're going to do good things. If you just give them money, let them do it. So were so with that without understood are obvious asset is is our cryptocurrency. We have an end this offer development expertise that that were we have were building. So our belief is that you can or that that one of the key features of of blockchain general cryptocurrency, specifically is that it is very fast and very cheap and very easy to get resources directly into people's hands. If we were to fill it somewhat defeats the purpose of cryptocurrency to transfer to other organizations who more likely than not will turn into yet as quickly as they possibly can. Because they're terrified of the volatility and then funnel through their normal. Pl. Which which may or may not be efficient. So were were building a platform that will hopefully allow people to both donate and receive this this new kind of of money that we think is especially well suited towards this towards this purpose. And so let's talk a little bit about the history of charitable giving and crypto so far I feel like the most high-profile effort was the pineapple fund in which an individual who is early bitcoin decided earlier this year to donate a little more than five thousand bitcoins which. It probably has to do with the way the prices were gyrating earlier this year, but I've seen some accounts. It was eighty six million dollars in on its own website. The Pinal fund says it was fifty five million. There has been actually a an a sponsor of my show that has been advertising recently we trust and they have a new terrible offering. But when I checked it very little had been donated even though in ads that they're running. They're saying that they're matching all the donations through giving Tuesday by Nance heritage founation. Also just announced that it was getting started. And this isn't exactly charity, but the UN World Food Program did have a trial using an fury a private Therion blockchain to distribute funds in a refugee camp in Jordan, the man in charge of that program actually was on my other podcasts unconfirmed. So I will link to that in the show. It was a really great episode. But overall, what do you guys think do you think the cryptic communities doing enough are there important efforts? I missed like what what do you think it says that in this space where there is money sort of being created out of thin air, and everyone has all these. Has pretty idealistic visions about how crypto contar markets, finance like, what do you think of these efforts in whether or not there could be more? That's being done. Yeah. Clue there can be more that can be dotted of. I don't know if I totally agree with this theory. But I've heard a friend of mine. What's what's the reason why the criticism unity has has largely ignored the the nonprofits basis because the profits are so terrified of cryptocurrency that that they'll like I said before they will convert it the field as soon as they possibly can. And from a kind of true believer true. Crypto believer perspective. These these on province are losing out us so much upside if they converted a yacht. So what idea that this friend had was what we set up a vehicle where crypto owners currency can donate to to nonprofits. But the profits can only convert x percent of it per year. So that the the true upside could be realized or that the hopeful upside can. Realized what went what appreciation does ultimately happen. But yeah, I agree that there there are are kind of embarrassingly few examples of of big crypto a project or big charitable projects in the crypto space, Connie, what do you make that vary because you have don't directly with on? These nonprofits is that true that they're scared of cryptocurrency. In some cases. Yeah. Yeah. They so we've we're dealing with many of them. Right. And I think that that's our role is it's all about education exposure demonstrating the benefits in the potential getting them excited about it and working with the ones who are willing to work with it in excited about it. And there's you know, I mentioned earlier like I called the gateway is the fundraising aspect end. Yeah. They they only really get as as a as a sector overall. They only get really excited about that side of it. When there's something like the pineapple funding going on and that was largely driven by price. Right. So just like everyone else they're kind of excited about the value. And when it might mean to them, which you can't blame them when everyone else is focused on that too. But I think there are a lot of NGOs that are excited about the technology itself. And largely it's the ones that are. Are working globally. They're moving money from the developed world to the developing economies are trying to get funds to the most remote areas, they understand how much time it's taking how much money it costs in many cases. It's you know, it's it's dangerous. Right. Like, if you have someone going to the the closest urbanized area to Western Union who works for your NGO to get money and then distribute it to these more remote areas their target, right? I mean, everyone gets to know who these people are in these communities, and it's not very safe for them to be carrying on this cash around. So I mean, there's a lot of benefits to the tech itself that I think NGOs do see, but it really just depends on who you're talking to what you know, what they see in technology. A lot of the really big organizations are just very concise. -servative and very risk averse. Similar to like the banks and stuff, right? Like, they're looking at this stuff. And they have teams that are quote, unquote, researching it and whatever, but they're these huge institutions that have very conservative outlook in. So even if they are doing projects that's like in RND on a private blockchain, right though. I mean, it's I think overall in general we have a mainstream adoption challenge for the technology and certain parts of NGO sector fall into that same in category of conservativism and focused on the price and all that. But it's not everyone and our focus is working on like I said on on leveraging the technology itself in working with NGOs her excited about that. And had a demonstrate that and there is one project that was recently announced two hundred twenty million dollar airdrop by blockchain dot com ripple where they're dropping stellar which is probably the biggest one today. Oh, yeah. And I didn't I didn't respond to that piece of the question about. The industry itself in and philanthropic efforts. I could say that, you know, since I've been around since twenty thirteen when the industry just started. The blossom wasn't even really an industry. It was budding community and we've been going at this for over five years. Now, we definitely have a strong base of support in. There is a contingency that really wants to see what we're working on happen and become a reality. There's a core base that really been sees the benefits of the tech itself and wants to demonstrate the benefits of the TAC, and they're not, you know, so focused on day trading and exchanges in, you know, the developed world's focus on basically speculation. They're they're actually levers in the TAC itself. They see us as one of the very few organizations demonstrating that and pushing the envelope and not just. You know, feeding the the masses with whatever they are interested in that doesn't benefit from the technology. Really? But I could say that. Yeah. I mean, there could be so much more going on in the industry and support for our efforts forgive crypto for everybody's efforts who are working on these things it could be much more broadly. I think supportive from the industry than it currently is in like give crypto and we and and I'm sure others have set up structures for that. Right. Like we where five three we've been five on C threes twenty fourteen to offer the tax benefits to people for offsetting capital gains. Even if they don't even care just wind out what just walk through what that means. So people understand. So it's so five a one c three is a nonprofit registered in the US every country kinda has their own process. We're here. So and it gives us tax exempt status. It provides a lot of different benefits on both sides though. So for us, it's pretty simple any sort of capital gains or revenue that we bring in his tax tax free. Unless we provide some sort of business service in that's a different category of revenue, but donations where you're not receiving anything. In return, our tax free. We focus on taking in bitcoin or and or holding in bitcoins. Any gains. We have on our side are any capital gains are all tax rates. Well, right. So that's for us for the donor. It offers a tax write off like they would give to any other charity, that's registered. But what's interesting is when you have something like crypto that's considered a property and you have gains on that property. You can offset those gains and not pay taxes on those gains by donating in. Oh, right. So you don't want to convert it. I that doesn't really benefit you as a donor. Because he'll pay fifteen or twenty percent or whatever on that. Right. Right. But a lot of people don't quite understand this. And then they got especially last year, they got stuck because of price skyrocketed at the last minute the end of the tax year. Nobody knew what to do. And then they ended up with these huge tax bills because you have to make the contribution before the end of the tax year has to be made during that tax year. You can't wait until April. When you're figuring it out and go on my God, I o two million dollars in taxes as I got in crypto early. It's too late at that point to offset. But that's to me. That's the beauty really is. If you have crypto assets that have gains. You can donate increase. Dow and offset those gains we have worked with libra tax for a long time. And they had I don't know if they still do this in early days, they had a really interesting way of helping the crypto asset owner identified the oldest coins the most gains to donate, right? So when they're donated the face value is what the charity receives, but when the donor chooses their oldest coins at the most gains they offset the maximum amount. Right. So there's a lot of really beautiful things about about just that one topic around this, you know. Yeah. So I actually now on the flip side wanted to ask you about what you mentioned before about the regulatory burden for charities working with crypto. What are those burdens? Well, they're not necessarily related to being territory. So well, there's there are some around the accounting aspects, which we because we got into so early. Nobody knew how to handle it. So we spent a lot of time kind of pioneering paving, the path for like how to even deal with this in our counting our taxes in dealing with the IRS, but what I was reading fern too. Earlier is actually more around money transmitting licensing money services business issues. So, you know, we are a nonprofit, and I don't think you know, it's ethically. A good a good angle for us to start spending all the money we have received from donors to get licensed in every state in every country to be a money transmitter. And unfortunately that creates a lot of problems for us when we're trying to facilitate funding between donors and nonprofits. So we've had two very carefully craft our platform in a way where. We're providing a platform where providing the service, and we're facilitating the interaction between donors and nonprofits but bit goes never actually touches owns holds transfers or converts any of the money ourselves. And you can imagine that's pretty challenging to do. Challenge that we're facing. Right. Good. Good. Oh, yeah. Well for both. You wanna you Joe? Go ahead. You can describe that a little bit further because that's interesting are the wrinkles. We have to iron out are mostly around kY all these fund acronyms KYC, AM L and Faca KYC know, your customer male anti-money-laundering Faca office of foreign assets control because we're giving money directly to human beings, not through some other organization that presumably has some some legitimate status, and it's doing vetting on their end. We have to do a lot of that ourselves, basically means we don't want to make sure we don't give any money to any bad people as determined mostly by the US government. So they're they're this that definitely is a is a non trivial endeavor and were were right now having a lot of fun conversation with warriors route how we could minimize the likelihood that that any of our funds end up at the hands of of naughty people. Yeah. There's probably a lot more we could dive into their, but we're running out of time. So I wanted to ask you about something I had brought up earlier about how there's been a lot of talk in the space about how crypto democratize finance, and there's just a lot of idealistic visions that are thrown around. When people talk about what this technology could bring about in terms of change in good in the world. But I sort of feel like a lot of these initiatives are kind of going the way things of always gone where there's the industry doing what is doing in its capitalist world, which it's not like, I'm against capitalism or anything. I'm definitely not. But but then charitable giving sort of like this separate sphere. And sometimes it's an afterthought the way that giving Tuesdays like the last in the string of these holidays that that are all about like shopping and and being materialistic. So they're just gonna curious how do you think the crypto industry can actually live up to this rhetoric that it's been spouse? Outing for a long time. Like, which is do you think needs to be made to really get to the to this vision that a lot of the founders in this space are espousing? Well, this is my biggest issue I can say because I keep referring back to the infrastructure in the ecosystem in where we're coming up against challenges. And that's where I feel it significantly lacking is all of the interest is in the first world and in trading and exchanges. And if we wanna see the beauty of what everyone talks about this. What this technology can actually do we have to build out a global ecosystem. So you know, what I'm trying to do. And what Joe is trying to do is so challenging when there's nowhere that people can use this on the ground or converted even right? So what I always refer to is bit Pyssa. I love them. They are so amazing. And I feel like they need to be there needs to be bit pisses everywhere, you know, it doesn't. By the way, it wasn't the founder and CEO of it pays us. She was actually my first guest ever unchained. And it's an excellent episode for people who missed it. I've had people say you need to bring her back because she was so amazing. But she was so people linked to that in the show. It was a great episode. They are amazing. And like they were at the forefront of exactly what I'm talking about building into essentially like the mobile cash system in Kenya. Right. So if that was still working, which it's kind of now A B two B model because of the regulatory issues they came up against and you have to spend like you have to be converting. It's like twenty five thousand dollars through them. Right. But they've now expanded to like seven other countries because they're like, well if Ken is not going to embrace this. We're gonna move on. But the concept is there. And if there weren't regulatory issues, it would be amazing. You know, you can essentially plug into a system like em. Pay cash on the ground that they're used to using that already has infrastructure. I was when I was there. I used it for everything. Paid for my lodging taxis food you name it from 'em pay. You know? You know? There's regulatory issues Depp ING in out of fear of the tech, quote, unquote. But I think it's about their concern that the power in the influence is being taken away that get in the way. But that doesn't mean that it's not possible, right? We have to somehow break through these things. So I'm going on and on because I'm very passionate about this. But to answer your question, I think if we could have some more investment in businesses and concepts like bit Pasa everywhere in the world where we can have plug ins to cash cash based system mobile base systems conversion on the ground. Ultimately, we wanna get to the point where we're using crypto without having to convert it, but I don't see us getting there anytime soon. So we need that middle ground of building out an ecosystem for to work in. Joe, what do you think how do we get to this idealistic vision? The short answer is is I don't know. I waver between trying to be broad and narrow and do a bunch of experiments in a bunch of different places that have very different characteristics versus being very very abroad narrows of the right? Any out doing a little bit of stuff everywhere or doing a whole bunch of stuff in just one place of an one example, what what one place that that is just heartbreakingly perfect for crypto is is Venezuela right now, they're just they're going through a situation that hasn't really been seen since like, you know, world wars or great depressions of in terms of of of their their inflation and the misery. That's happening. So you know, what? I oftentimes ask myself. Why are we doing anything anywhere? But Venezuela right now at how how can that be justified? So the short short edges. I don't know. We're we're doing a lot of experimentation a lot of getting her hands dirty giving crypto to people see what they can. And can't do with it. And then hopefully learning from that. That approving the work. We're doing what we're doing. Well, we'll see how it all turns out. I commend you for your efforts where can people learn more about you? And your organization's Lambeau forbid give we're at bit give foundation dot org and forgive track where it gives check dot org. And we're also on all the social media channels as well give crypto dot org. Please come check it out. Great. We'll thank you both for coming on chained. Thank you. Thanks so much for joining us today to learn more about Connie and bit give and Joe and crypto check out the show inside your podcast player. New episodes of unchained come every Tuesday. If you haven't already rave reviews on apple podcast, if you liked this episode here with your friends on Facebook Twitter Lincoln, and if you're not yet other podcasts unconfirmed highly recommend you. Check it out. And subscribe now unchained is produced by me, Laura shin with Rayleigh Gallipoli France with owning Jenny jobs a Senate Daniel. Thanks.
Aired 2 months ago 26:15
'Patriot Act With Hasan Minhaj' and 'Busy Tonight'
Support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from the UPS store, offering services from shredding to notarize ING to mail boxing, and instead of closing this holiday. The UPS store is doing another inking altogether. Opening the UPS store every Inc for small business. And of course shipping. Are a bunch of new shows to pay attention to this season. And today we're talking about two of our favorite talk entries Patriot Act and busy tonight on patriot. Act on montage leverages, the sharp humor, we know from his standup specials to make some powerful and serious arguments. And I'm busy tonight. Actress busy Phillips brings a jolt of off the cuff charm to the late night talk show. I'm Stephen Thompson. And I'm Linda Holmes today. We're looking at two half hour shows the offer refreshing takes on the talk show format here with me, and Stephen is Glen Weldon of the NPR arts desk. Hi, glen. And in our fourth chair is NPR's. Tv critic Eric Dagens who is usually coming to us from the state of Florida today is coming to us from right here in our studio, and please don't send any emails. I voted before. I left. That's right. Because we we are taping this on election day. So you are hearing it after election day. I hope everyone's well, I mean, the first thing I want to say about these two shows when we decided to do these two shows together it's because they both premiered essentially in the same weekend. Busy tonight is on E. It is a, you know, several times a week more like a daily program, whereas Hossam manages Patriot Act is on net flicks where they are contrary to the usual net flicks model, it's something that comes out once a week on Netflix. But when we decided to consider them together as different from each other. As I expected them. I think they are even more different than that. Eric back me up not the same show. All right. So not the same show. Well, what's interesting to me about this moment is that there's a lot of different people who seem to be trying to deconstruct the talk show, they know that the traditional desk band guest monologue thing feels very old hat, and so people are trying to find different ways to pull out pieces of that formula and see if they can Bill shows around them, so Michelle wolf did it and it didn't last long. And now, I feel like with these two shows we've gotten sort of Hassan distilling, the whole daily show, I'm going to tell you stuff with a bunch of jokes model, and then busy is distilling. The whole hang out with celebrities and talk about cool, pop culture stuff thing. And I feel like each show is lacking a little bit because they are pieces of a formula rather than something that completely reinvents the formula. I mean, I feel like Patriot Act is a descendant of last week tonight before that obviously the day. Early show, you know, modified as those formats have been modified, whereas the most obvious precursor to me for busy tonight is watch. What happens live on? Bravo. Glen. What do you think? Well, I think these shows both rest and are fueled by the innate, charm, and charisma of their hosts, they just come at it from very different kinds of energy Hossam Menaj is what I would call a very traditional masculine energy. There's a swagger to him and busy tonight is so nurturing and supportive and enthusiastic and sincere. Ends every episode by saying I love she does man. I am a fan of busy Phillips okay from freaks and geeks. It didn't watch Dawson's creek. But I think she was the best thing on cougar town on which she rocked aside pony, which can only be called conic. And and man, she is funny, man. She is a delight man. She is sweet men. I'm not going to watch the show. Yeah. Anymore? It's it's just not for me. It's waka Molly without any lime juice. It's salt and fat with no acid or heat. And I think the bones of the show actually has something to help that she has a writer on the show tear Jackson whose job in the first week. At least was to tell busy when she was being less relatable when she was indulging in what you called white lady nonsense. So the bones of that are there. Yeah. I I just think it's fascinating that both of these shows rest on charm, and they manifest in very different ways. I I like both of these shows I think Hassan montage I loved his homecoming king special on net flicks. This brings out some of that same energy with the imagery popping up behind him. He refers to his own act as woke TED talks. That is exactly what they are. If you're looking for a woke tedtalk this possesses a lot of that same energy, though, it is directed more toward kind of speeches about the issues of the day. So on this comedy. Talk show. You have an episode about affirmative action. You have an episode about Amazon there are three as we tape this. And what about the Saudi Royal family, which is classic comedy fodder home to me, it feels closest to last week with John Oliver where you're sitting and watching someone essentially give almost a political lecture with jokes intertwined throughout. If you're here for that. This is a very well done version of that. I was actually a little more interested in busy tonight. Which is attempting a more familiar talk show vibe in unfamiliar ways. And I think Glenn the first couple of episodes of this show. I had the same reaction you did in that. I just felt like it wasn't quite working didn't necessarily have a strong comedic point of view in the third episode of this show. It really really helps that the guests on the third episode of the show is Kristen bell. Who is the hall of fame talk show guest? But in the early portion of this. Show. Busy busy Phillips is looking at the camera, but she's convening. This panel of writers in the front row of keeps. Her writers on a couch in the front row. Includes santeria Jackson, who you mentioned Glenn Jenny Yang is one of these are, very very funny people and in this episode, busy Phillips is talking to them and the subject is menstrual cups, and each one has a position, and you get a sense of this show coming together in potentially like what it can be which is this kind of funny freewheeling back and forth. I think she's a little bit better when she's bouncing off someone than when she's monologue ING. And then when Kristen bell comes out, they continue this conversation. Kristen bell has a goofy kind of talk show style story. But it's about menstrual cups. And at that point. I felt like I get where this show is ultimately going talk shows like this start legendarily slowly in terms of figuring out what they are Conan O'Brien was incredibly wobbly for the first year. Year or two. I mean, they're they're tons and tons of stories if you go back and watch the beginnings of Jimmy Fallon like he had not yet become what he was going to become so my hope with this show is that e gives it a bunch of time. Yeah. I think the more it is supposed to be a chill hang the longer. It can take to come together. And I think busy tonight is supposed to be a chill. Hang. I want to go back to what Eric was saying about feeling like both shows were a little bit lacking. Can you expand on that a little bit with Patriot Act? I don't know. Maybe it's just me. Maybe you know, today's my birthday. So I feel a year. Villain year old thirsty. I have a problem with a show that is constantly spoon. Feeding me information and then sugar coating it with jokes all the way through and as much as I'd like us on Manashe, and as much as I love some moments in Patriot Act part of me is feeling like, you know, have we reached the point where we can have a serious discussion about high Amazon dominates, you know, America, unless it's filled with jokes about pop culture. And that's the one thing that kind of troubles me a little bit about the explosion of shows. Like, what Hassan is doing? And I'm busy tonight. I couldn't decide if I was not clicking with the show because it wasn't for me. Or if it was because the show's not quite there yet. And one thing that's troubling me is this rise of the people of color who are essentially sidekicks on these shows, but aren't really psychics. I mean, I love amber Ruffin on Seth Meyers show. I love that. They finally figured out how to work in the band leader on Colbert show. So that they play off of each other. But I feel like every new show that comes along. Now has a person of color who sort of us. I kick Michelle will fat it to with the DJ. And at some point, I think especially with busy tonight. Maybe they should just promote those people of color to be co hosts, I actually have the show be about how they sit around and talk. That's the best part of the show. So far from think, that's right. And I think if I were remaking this show, I would probably have made it more like the view, the talk or you had a couch, and they were all there. I agree with you that I would like it. I think even more if it were all of those women because I think they're all great I share Eric's discomfort. I think less with the amber Ruffin stuff because that's an expansion of sort of an existing format. I think she really was kind of promoted as an on air person. I think as long as you understand that getting amber Ruffin camera time on Seth Meyers is not the equivalent of get. Amber Ruffin her own show. Right. And so it doesn't really close the gap that we have, you know, in terms of representation, and the interesting thing to me is I do think there's value to the chill hang show. And I am happy that if you're gonna have a chill hang it has this extremely feminine energy, which is kind of what Stephen was talking about with the the menstrual cups and everything, but I understand what Eric Sankt to that those women on that couch. Although it's great that they're involved. I understand the feeling that they're they have a certain kind of subordinate. What's interesting to me? Like if you watch Graham, Norton Graham, Norton to me, the British talk show host is an ace at getting the most out of his guests. That's possible. The three guests are together on a couch, and he faces the he's clearly done his research. He always finds stories that I've never heard tell elsewhere and that he pulls out of them, and they're really good at bouncing off of each other. And I was watching busy tonight thinking man, that's the energy that this show needs. She brings Jill. Robertson in one episode, and they talk about the fake boomerang name that she's kinda created on Instagram. A okay, I'm old. I didn't quite know what they were talking about. She didn't quite explain it. Well, enough for somebody who didn't know. But she also was so busy telling Julia Roberts. How graciously was that? She didn't really pull anything interesting or new out of her. That's what the show needs is the ability to make the guest shine and pull stuff out of them that you wouldn't see anywhere else without the guest having to provide that the way that Kristen bell. You get a sense, especially on the first couple episodes of that show. She's very nervous. And so she does the thing that nervous people often do in situations like that where she keeps kind of talking over the person. She's I think already over the course of four or five episodes starting to learn to pull back. I agree completely that the direction to develop that show the stuff that has worked on that show involves pulling those women onto that main couch with her and make it a little bit more of. A discussion show that has more banter. I mean, you talk about a chill hang that's chill. Hang right. I think it would be more of a chill hang if she had multiple people as opposed to that sort of front row couch. And I I mean, I would not be surprised to see them. Go more in that direction, and it might be my own bias because I don't know if you know this, but I like around table. Roundtable. I for both your shows. We're trying to assess what college a toddler we'll get into. Right. I mean, there's. There's a long way to go on these shows, but Harvard, of course, I think the thing I like about busy tonight is that there is a loose shaggy of our candid feel to her. It's kind of a Wendy Williams field. If you can imagine Wendy Williams surfed and played some beach volleyball. That's kind of where cannot. I think both these shows share something else, which is also not quite working for me. Which is I don't think they have a real relationship with our studio audiences. I think they're just kind of there because talk shows have studio audiences, and when you Williams loves her audience, the audience loves her there is a two way reaction there right now, she is talking to a writers not to the audience the audiences kind of their similarly Hassan nudge as good as he is when he can interact with the audience in any way, when he Melges somebody's cackled was funny. That reminds you why he's doing it in front of an audience because the show does not need to be in front of an audience. I do think though we compared it to Oliver like he's kind of John Oliver on red bull writing he's much more animated. And I also think the writing on Patriot Act isn't quite to the level of last week tonight. I mean because they both do the same stick, which is talk talk talk. Talk talk. News news, news, news news, and then joke, which is Eric would point out. Just imagine that would be like some kind of analogy and invest. Variably the ones on patriot perhaps because it's a smaller writer's room. I don't know why we're paying because it's younger show. Just don't quite land as hard, and when they don't land in front of an audience, you notice it even more. So I think they both need to get better at involving the audience or at least bringing in them in somehow now one thing we should mention Patriot Act. That's unique is that it's a show that's hosted by South Asian. And so when he talked about affirmative action and talked about the way that affirmative action was being attacked through Asian plaintiffs in a suit, and when he talked about Saudi Arabia from the perspective of somebody who's Muslim and South Asian at least, we got a perspective that we don't often hear on these kinds of shows. And I I hope to see him doing that even more. I mean, that's the one way is going to set himself apart from John Oliver is to talk about being a man of color talking about the Muslim talking about being a certain kind of person of color is different than the black white diner. We always talk about an America that can really distinguish the show, right? And fact in all three of the episodes we've seen so far he forefronts his own ambivalence ambiguity like for affirmative action. He kind of places himself in that mix. Saudi Arabia as a Muslim where two of the most holy sites in the world are in Saudi Arabia. And also, you know, he's very apprentice about how much he loves Amazon prime what that's doing is different from what John Oliver tends to do which is to educate and then decry launch into a rancorous screed. And then give the audience something to do. Right. There's catharsis at the he's got a call to action always. What what Menashe's doing so far is educate, and sort of interrogate and doesn't give you that kind of red meat ending which is interesting because again, he's steering into the nuance. More than I think Oliver's, I think he is more reliant on his point of view to distinguish his show. I don't think the specificity of John Oliver's life experience is supposed to drive last week tonight. And it's interesting because Stephen, and I know have talked a lot about how much we love homecoming king his his Netflix special, which I still think is one of the best ones they've ever done. And it's interesting to see kind of talk show format thing that reminds me so much of somebody's stand up. But I do think that some of the charm of his kind of easy approach to the audience and his ability to tell stories about himself, and especially what Eric was talking about that he brings life experience that's not necessarily available from other hosts is is very valuable to me. Yeah. I almost don't think of Patriot Act as a talk show. Exactly. I don't know that I would accept that. It seems so much like it's taking elements of other talk shows news shows, quote, unquote, like the daily show. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. I mean, it's the standup special versus the chill. Hang are probably the biggest among many fundamental differences between the two shows that we're talking about. I think busy tonight is an actual time slot reliant show. I think if you don't watch busy tonight on live television when it's on you should at least DVR it and watch it at the end of your day. I think it has that kind of like settling in she literally puts on a nightgown at the end of the episode. Some of the time there is a real kind of good night. I'll see you tomorrow that obviously on Netflix that is not part of the model. And I think like you were saying earlier, Stephen any show like this weather. It's busy show or or his show. It takes a little time to get their feet under him. So all right. Well, I will be curious to hear what some of you think if you. I've had a chance to catch Patriot Act or busy tonight. Very different shows that we've brought together in one find us on Facebook at Facebook dot com slash P, C H or tweet us at P C H when we come back. It's going to be time for our favorite segment of this week in every week. What is making us happy this week? So come right back support for NPR and the following message. Come from the laga needs brewing company, which helps nonprofits turn beer into money through fundraising events, chief cultural officer, Ron Linden Bush thinks fundraisers are a great place to discover new beer had so many people tell me that the first time they had our bureau was at a fundraiser. And you're in this this great place in this. Great stuff is happening around you. It's it's magic to learn more. Visit laga nita's dot com slash community. Support for this podcast. And the following message come from little passports, the award winning subscription service that brings a world of discovery to your front door every month with the early explorers subscription each month package arrives full. Of activities like uncovering fossils from around the world fund souvenirs like ancient Greek coins and hands on games like coloring, the cosmos all curated for their curious minds. Learn more about their holiday offers at little passports dot com slash pop culture. Welcome back to pop culture happy hour. It's time for our favorite segment. What is making us happy this week? Steven see Charles Thompson, non talk show host. What is making you happy's when I was welp are used to play. A lot of text based adventure games. Your your hitchhikers guide to the galaxy. Your your Zork? There is a new in two thousand eighteen a new text based choose your own adventure game by Geyer alert alert. By Chris Libman called. You are Jeff Bezos. The plot of the game. Is you wake up in the form of Jeff Bezos? You cannot convince anyone around you that you are not Jeff basis so your job in the course of this text based adventure game is to spend all of Jeff Bezos says money out of spite. And this could so so it lays out all the different ways, not all the different ways. But a lot of the different ways that you can spend his money. Now, we work for journalistic organization. I will note it is acknowledged in the credits. The numbers are guesses in some ways. This is not a journalistic enterprise this game. Also, take some positions that you may or may not take. But it is fascinating. As you go about the task of attempting to spend one hundred fifty six billion dollars. You know, what I would do man? Larry Wilmore, Robin. Daddy would have shows. That's right. That's not one of the options, and it should be. There is an option at one point to reboot Mythbusters. That's the next best thing. Got to see where this is coming from. Now, you can pretty early in the game spent one hundred and thirty nine billion of one hundred and six billion dollars rebuilding Puerto Rico as you play. It your learning a lot about your own priorities. Do I rebuild libraries do? I double every Amazon employee salary. Do I fix the Flint water crisis? Fray shockingly tiny fraction of Jeff Bezos says money it is a very fun game. It is amusing Lee written it is clever. It may make you angry. But I highly recommended it is called your Jeff Bezos by Chris Laghman. Do they spell it with two Z's? I mean, this seems highly actionable. Public figure he has one hundred and fifty six billion dollars that could be spent. All right. Thank you very much. Stephen thompson. Where do we find this, by the way, you basically have to Google you are deaf? Pesos. It's on a platform. It's a pretty long your L. But if you just Google you are Jeff basis. Cool. Thank you. Stephen Thompson, Glen Weldon. What is making you happy this week get a room with Carson and Tom? That's Carson Christly and Tom Felicia is a show on Bravo. Look gonna look overplay it it's a roommate over show starring Carson Gresley accomplish from the original queer eye. The gimmick is that Carson is trying to get into interior design and Thomas his mentor much as I like the new queer eye. It has a much greater tendency to wear its heart on its sleeve, arguably they've chosen for this particular show that two members of the original queer eye who are the least likely to IMO even time. They have a natural chemistry. They bicker. They are both funny in their own ways, the makeovers makeover it's about these two guys and the chemistry that they have. So that is get a room with Carson and Tom on. Bravo, right. Thank you very much Glen. Well, then Eric day. Begins. What is making you happy homecoming with Julia Roberts, man, I am really digging this show. And I mean, it's great that Joe is doing television, but SAM's mail is like a genius and television and his direction in this show on Amazon. Julia Roberts plays this woman who runs us facility that seems to be treating soldiers, but we find out there's a darker element to what's going on there, and there's flashbacks involved, but the way they shoot the flashbacks. You're not quite sure if they're flashbacks or if they're present day and takes you while to figure it out. I am really digging this show, and I love the way Sam plays with our expectations is viewers. So I would highly recommend if you haven't watched it yet checking out homecoming on Amazon spoiler alert. We're about to. Great. We haven't talked about it yet. But we are going to talk about it. And now you have an intro to it. So you can watch it ready for us to talk about it. Thank you very much. Eric Diggins making me happy. This week is the LeBron James executive produced series called shut up and dribble, which I loved they have aired as we tape. This one episode on Showtime. There are three total. I've seen the whole thing. If you've watched a lot of sports documentaries, even OJ made in America and things like that. You have heard some of the stories about black, athletes, and activism and things like that. But I this is kind of a laser focus on the NBA specifically, and I found it so interesting and their pieces of it that were stories I knew about Oscar Robertson and things like that. There were also pieces of it that I had never thought about in this way. There's a long section about the brawl in which Metta world peace and then known as Ron test wound up serving a long long suspension and how. That brawl seemed to uncover a glee feelings about black athletes and specifically NBA players within sports media. And within the NBA itself is also just a really fun thing to watch Larry Wilmore makes several appearances in this in he so find me in it. He clearly loves talking that the NBA loves talking about, you know, watching the differences between the ABA in the NBA. It's he's so good in it. I really recommend that you seek it out and like most good sports documentaries. I think even if the NBA is not your thing, you will find a lot in here that will sort of reflect upon the intersection between athletics and politics, so again on Showtime shut up and dribble executive produced by among many other people. Lebron James, it can we just say that is so cool that if you wanna give the business to somebody who insults you in public that you don't just say it in public you create a three. The episode documentary to tell Laura Ingram that she's full of it. It is a good series. I enjoyed it very much seek it out on Showtime. And that is what is making me happy this week. But before we go I wanted to mention that for our New York podcast fans are friends that coats, which are going to be doing a live show at oh, no big deal. Just the Apollo theater. Amazing. It's on November sixteenth is part of the work at festival Charene, gene. As you know, our regular guests on our show. We love them both. They will be leading conversations with a whole bunch of talented guests, including one of my favorite chopped judges, Marcus Samuelsson. And if you want to buy tickets, you can do that at work at events dot com. That's work events dot com. Go see code switch at the Apollo. Give me a break, man. Who would miss out on something? Like that. Again, November sixteen that does bring us then to the end of our show, you can find all of us on Twitter. Find me at Linda, Holmes. You can find Stephen that. I dislike Stephen find Glenn at H twelve and you can find Eric at Dagens, you can find our producer. Jessica radia. Jessica underscore radiant and our producer Vincent Atkins. E-e-e-e-no at the ACA vino, you can find our producer, emeritus and music director. Mike cats at my cats, that's K A T CIF Mike's band. Hello, come in provides are in and out music. Would you are tapping your foot? Right now. So thanks to all of you guys for being here with you. Thank you. Thank you for joining us in the studio. Eric deg? Oh, it's a pleasure. And thanks to all of you for listening. And if you have a second, and you're so inclined just pop over to apple podcasts. Give us a review that will help other people. Find the show we will see all right back here next week. Sam Sanders here this week. I'm talking to Abby Jacobson, you know, her from her comedy central show brought city we're gonna talk about a solo cross country road trip Abby took recently, and why she wrote a book all about that is on the latest episode of it's been a minute from NPR. Support for NPR and the following message. Come from Cirque du Soleil, crystal a frozen playground of world-class, ice skating and stunning acrobatics. See it live at Capital One arena from December fifth and ninth. Tickets available now at Cirque du so Soleil dot com.
Pop Culture Happy Hour