15 Episode results for "Lamar Park"

Roland A. Wiley

Revision Path

1:12:31 hr | 1 year ago

Roland A. Wiley

"Are you looking for a job? Are you hiring but struggling to diversify your candidate pool? They come check it. Our job board at revision pass dot com forward slash jobs. This week design action. Collective is looking for a lead web designer in Oakland California company. Stop Making excuses on your DNA efforts. Post your job listings with us for just ninety nine dollars. You're listening. We'll be on our job board for thirty days and will spread the word for you throughout our podcast get started with us and expand your job. Search today revision path dot com forward slash jobs. You're listening to the revision path. Podcast a weekly showcase of the world's black graphic designers web designers and web developers through in-depth interviews. You'll learn their work their goals and what inspires them as creative individual. Here's your host Maurice Cherry. Hello everybody welcome to revision path. I'm Maurice Cherry and before we get into this. We just have to pause and acknowledge the milestone. We have just reached seven years. Seven years in podcasting is turning so the fact that we're still around still going strong and still making change and making a difference is really all because of you. Thank you to all of you. Who have listened to the show to have shared it with others and who really just helps spread. The word about what revisions path is about. This show would not be here without you. So thank you now. Let's talk about our sponsors. Facebook DESIGN AND ABSTRACT. Facebook design is a proud sponsor over vision path to learn more about how the facebook design communities designing for human needs an unprecedented scale. Please visit facebook. Dot Design this episode is also brought to you by abstract design. Workflow management for modern design teams spend less time searching design files and tracking down feedback and spend more time focusing on innovation and collaboration like glitch but for designers abstract is your team's version control source of truth for design were conversion sketch designed files present. Work request reviews collect feedback and give developers direct access to all specs all from one place. Sign your team up for fourteen day trial today by heading over to. Www DOT abstract dot com. Now for this week's interview as you know last month we were in Los Angeles and we did our first live show of twenty twenty so this interview actually comes from that life show. I talked with a wildly. There was a Los Angeles based architect and principal at raw international. Let's start the show. How this is GonNa take place as Maurice is actually going to be interviewing Roland Wiley. Maurice Cherry works as creative. Strategist at glitch. He is also the host and founder of revision path. The award winning podcast that he launched in two thousand thirteen. And what we're about to witness tonight. Live his in depth interviews showcasing. Black creatives has the honor of being the first podcasts. To be added to the permanent collection of the Smithsonian's National Museum of African American yes of African history and culture other projects Maurice has provided to the world include the Black Weblog Award in Twenty eight days of the web to name. A few Maurice is the recipient of the two thousand eighteen Steven Heller Prize for cultural commentary from Asia was named one of graphic design. Usa's two thousand eighteen people to watch and included in the route. One hundred the annual list of the most influential African Americans ages twenty five to forty five his projects and overall design work advocacy have been recognized by Apple. Adobe AGFA and NPR. Let me now introduce role in a wily. He considers himself an urban visionary whose alternate goal as an architect is to build cities from the people up. He has over thirty seven years of experience and is founding partner of the L. A. Based architectural firm Raw International. A Nationally Recognized Award Winning Studio. Who'S PROJECTS RANGE FROM TRANSIT? Planning to sanctuary design. He has passionately advocated for the sustainable revitalization of urban communities through both the professional and civic activities notable projects have included the Union Station Gateway East Puerto Building motown headquarters in La and more recently on the planning and design of transformational projects here in the crenshaw community such as the crenshaw lax transit project. Lemur part Master Planning and Destination Crenshaw is firm has served in a leadership role in all of these projects was with a consistent goal of transforming the physical environment while empowering and preserving the culture of the existing residents. Please help me welcome. Maurice Cherry and rolling a widely may for that introduction. Thank you all for coming out tonight for this live recording of revision path rolling wildly prefer rolling. Wiley or rolling a wily. Well let's let's see Roland widely just because it's easier to say but I like rolling a wily because those are the initials of our company wrong international. Gotcha okay all right. So we'll start things off so rolling. Tell us who you are and what you do my goodness Maurice us. It's a tough one that would last all our let me let me see. Let me see where where I start. I will start with. I'm a man of God. I'm cousin family man. I have a beautiful wife here Andrea Us. Give a hammer and the one. I have two sons Randall. Who's twenty one and Roland? Who's twenty three and architect and being an architect that is something that is really my passion? I truly enjoy it. And it's a very tough profession for anybody but particularly a black man. It's a very hard profession. Well we'll get into that certainly throughout the rest of the interview. But for starters just tell me about your day to day work man it. We'll just start with today. Okay get to the office at six o'clock. I had a large presentation at the veteran's affair in in Westwood and is for eight hundred car parking structure now you may think parking structure but a parking structure eight hundred car. Parking structure is a big deal. There's like a room of twelve people. Everybody with the different opinion from administrative to safety to psychology to architecture landscape architecture. Everybody has an idea and we are the ones. We are the leaders. We have to direct all of these interests all of these burying interests into a project that safe cost effective and beautiful as an architect. That's the challenge. So after that I get to the office and we're working on the Beverly Hills City Hall. We're renovating the tower. Beverly Hills City Hall. Okay and so I just find out we get our plan check corrections from Beverly Hills City Hall and there were luminous so then I wonder okay. I gotTA deal with that. I'm leaving town tomorrow. And so then I have to plan all staff to make sure staff is assigned and they know what they're going to be doing while I'm away. In addition to that there was a an employee issue that a long email went out and I had to be the peacemaker. To mitigate whatever feelings are hurt from that email that went out then after that before I got out the door my C. F. O. Made sure I went through all the invoices. They had to go out and determine how much we were. GonNa get paid for the month so it just goes. It just everyday is intense. Every day is something. That's what keeps you in it. Yeah so some of your current projects that were mentioned in the Intro Destination Crenshaw Crenshaw. Lax Transit Line. Can you talk just a little bit about your involvement in those? Those came about. Yeah I'll go chronologically because the crenshaw lax transit line which most of you know should be opening this year. Notwithstanding the delays that was somewhat the catalyst to what really energize me as an architect and urban visionary that was in one thousand nine hundred ninety three. We started planning this project in Nineteen ninety-three. Wow that's right. So that's that's how long it takes for a transit project to come to reality. That is not an exaggeration from from plant from concept to planning to funding to construction can easily take twenty years. But from that I started to get to understand to start to envision how transit can transform a community because crenshaw live in the crenshaw corridor live view park and I've always been disappointed about the crenshaw corridor the commercial retail infrastructure is so great but yet the investment is so small and that the history of that goes back to the white flight in the early sixties after the watch riots where the major commercial retail base disinvested from crenshaw and moved to the valley and then what moved in to the crenshaw corridor were smaller mom and pop stores barber shops hair salons and that kind of thing but it wasn't commensurate to the income of the folks lived view. Park Windsor Hills Baldwin Hills. They had just as much or more income than the people that move down into the valley so I couldn't understand. Why don't we have the same level of goods and services that were there prior so then you look at transit investment? A typical transit station probably costs about. I'd say about fifty seventy five million dollars just for the station. Entire Transit System from exposition to the airport cost about two billion dollars. That's a major investment in our community and at those stations. You've spent almost one hundred million dollars you know there ain't GonNa keep a barber shop or a hair salon. No they're going to make some kind of investment and that's when the kind of the term urban visionary came to me that I started to see. Well this could be so much more than what it is and some of those rendering. Show what we envision. What our firm vision of. How transit can transform a community so that went on for from ninety three all the way till today there several steps. You have a feasibility. Study that you have a major investment study that you have a route refinement. Study then you have a draft environmental impact study and then you start to get into preliminary engineering and design and construction at takes twenty years and here we are today. Twenty something years later and crenshaw's about to open but from there you just start to bend their spin off projects development around the station areas and then from there you look at destination crenshaw. That's how destination Chris Paul was born for those of you who don't know destination crenshaw is unapologetically black art program that goes from crayons. Lawson to Lamar Park that was born by Councilman Marquis Harris Dawson. He came to our. My Office called our office. He's by the way he specifically look for black architect. Although you think that might be usual it is not it's disappointingly not unusual and he wanted a black architect who knew this corridor and so we worked with Marquis and Joanne. Kim His deputy and he wanted to make lemonade. Eliminate and other words that section from Slauson to crunch At grade and everybody feels they got the short change by having an agrade train as opposed to everywhere else is subway. There was a lot of contention about that so the councilman wanted to make out of lemonade or lemonade. Out of lemon and we thought well look. This is the only place that somebody coming from the airport with see any part of crenshaw that section everything else subway so what can we do to talk about crenshaw? Yeah what can we do to talk about who we are? And that's how we came up with the idea of this lineal art gallery that that celebrated Black Culture Black Culture in Los Angeles. There's so many people that grew up. That worked that live that learned in the Crenshaw Corridor. Who are famous Marvin Gaye Tina Turner? It just goes on and on and they're not celebrated they're not they're celebrated all everywhere else community. Yeah and so. That was the idea to represent us in a way the celebrated our culture and people come in from around the world with see it because it would be at grade. People were looking out at the train. Someone Win and get out of here. Check it out. So that's kind of you know a quick story how I became so passionate about transformation. Okay we'll definitely dive a little bit more into those projects as we keep talking. But I'm curious to know kind of where the spark came from like. Where did YOU SORTA I get? The notion of like architecture is the thing that I wanNA do. I can see the vision of things so I wanNA take it back. Tell me about where you grew up man. I'm going there tomorrow. Indianapolis Indiana okay. Right that's my hometown is a great place to grow up. I'm a proud product of a public schools public grade school public high school. I got a state. Scholarship pay my tuition and a ball. State University was the only accredited school of architecture in the state Graduated from Ball State University and came out to Los Angeles immediately after graduation. I always wanted to be an architect. I love buildings even as a as a child and ironically I. I still remember the day I discovered. I wanted to be an architect. Tell us about it. I was with my mom and we have Volkswagen and I was about five or six years old and I remember the Volkswagens on the Dash. Had this little rubber handle that you grab onto. I remember I would grab on a hand on kind of chew on it. I was a kid. I was a kid. She won't look out the window and I'd be downtown looking at the at the building. I asked my mom. I said mom who makes the most money as she said well doctors and even then I knew I don't like blood not going to be doctors and lawyers and I'm like well. That sounds kind of boring. And then she said architects architects. What's an architect? And she said well they built buildings and at that point. I knew I wanted to be an architect and because I love buildings I loved the built environment. I love the just the energy of a building just looking at a building and seeing what the dialogue it has with you. Every building had saying something. It's many times negative. But they're all saying something. Yeah and so That's were rolling and I was sort of driving around. La yesterday and we passed by a police station. Really sharp jagged amber rocks outside. Like I guess they sort of like how you would normally see shrubbery or topiary or something. These rocks as if to say. Don't come here. Don't sit here or whatever. It was really like an odd bit of like defensive design and said every building said something to you that was in skid row by the way That that was don't even think about laying down around here and I think that's really unfortunate but that's that's the language architecture does have that ability to speak and so from from that point. I wanted to be an architect and I was very fortunate to have role models or to see architects. Who looked like me at a very early age. That was a blessing. So that was in Indianapolis you those role models. Yes in I was about to fourth grade. We went on a field trip to an architect's office was Walter Blackburn. I didn't know anything about anything. Except he's an architect he's black and I want to be an architect so I guess I'm GonNa be architectures. That was a blessing. It really was. I didn't know at that time that you don't really get to see those those role models that was a very fortunate set of event because in my mind. I wanted to be an architect. I saw a black architect I saw office. So what's the problem? Although there were plenty of people who didn't think I could be an architect when I was in high school graduating my guidance. Counselor I told him I WANNA go to architecture school. At that time I had a work study program where I worked. I go to school in the morning. I worked at the City Hall in Indianapolis on the twentieth floor. A Counselor said you got a great job with benefits. Were you WANNA go to architecture school for just call? Look Dan. How's like but but on the serious tip just think how many young black men have been discouraged from following their dreams because they didn't see a role model and they had a person of authority that told them they couldn't do it And that that was disturbing. Yeah you had asked me to serve yesterday. Sorta during our drive like drive. We were at humor park at the out of remember. What the name of the coffee show. How cool how cool. Okay we red hot and cool and you were asking me sort of out of the three hundred plus people I've talked to like what's one of the common things and I was telling you like. It's sort of that like lack of a role model or person that they can see. That's in some position of authority or whatever when their child when their in their formative years to say okay. This is something that I can do myself like seemed to be a very sort of common thread. So That's interesting that you were able to kind of have that as an early influence for you. Was it like that? Also at ball state when you're studying architecture no architecture is is in. That's where I started to learn. It's back then and today is there's a white male elitists profession the curriculum you get indoctrinated into the white male elite us. And you don't even know it is just de facto. The architects the classical architects. The modern architects the cutting edge architects. They were all white male with no exception at that time. And that's something that to this day. Disturbs me in terms of the architectural curriculum? And how one is indoctrinated into a certain way of thinking where you don't see yourself you don't see your culture. Yeah you don't see a way to express who you are. You have to find a way to fit in and to speak that language when your language is just as relevant if not more relevant if given the chance and given the venue to express into practice it reminds me of This is an essay by the late. Sylvia Harris it's in this anthology from Steven Heller called education of a graphic designer and so she has an essay in there titled Searching For an African American design aesthetic or think it's black design aesthetic but she talks about mostly about education and how for black students often learning out of imitation as opposed to kind of like what their culture is about so they learn about Swiss styles in Germany styles and Dutch styles etc. But then it's like well if I'm a black design student are we learning about Nigerian style or Botswanan styles or South African styles and the answer is no you know and I wonder. Why is that still today? When we have access to the Internet we start to know our history available but yet we still don't know who we are when I was at ball state and I don't know how a why I did it. I research the Pyramids and the construction of the Pyramids and was was crazy. I didn't realize they were because the Egyptians were black because those illustrations that I research they were all just people drew illustrations of how they were built with white looking. Egyptians and so I knew it was an Africa but it wasn't until far after I graduated and I went to Egypt that I saw those folks look like me. Yeah they look just like me. We design those pyramid. The folks that look like me designed structures that far exceed what the classical Greek temples were that far exceed any monuments that have been built to this day were designed and built by people like me and so that looked like me and so that open up a door to me to explore more about what what else do I don't know what else have I been indoctrinated. And that is not true. And that's the journey on one to this day to discover who we are as a people so that we can express our design aesthetic that comes from our spirit that comes from some some discipline that you've been given and that you've been taught but it comes from your spirit there it's a we are a very spiritual people and. I think that we are in danger of losing that spiritual connection because we are so busy. Trying to adapt adopt and fit in to what popular culture is which is not us. When did you end up moving to la? Was it right after Balsa? Yep So my ass. People actually well. Why don't you come to la? Say you've been Indianapolis ever be like. It's a great place to raise a family. It really is but in terms of a career in architecture. I can imagine where what Pigeonhole I might be fall into. Indianapolis and I just want to be someplace. Warm weather is extremely cold. That's fair in Indianapolis and I was just again another blessing. I just feel like God has been very good in my life and I had a lot of interviews right out of school then Nice little resume and had interview setup and one of the interviews. It was at grew and associates. They're internationally known architectural firm. They're known for creating the inventing the shopping center and I was in the lobby. This great international style lobby and this sober head caramel skin. Woman walks up to me who I thought. That's the secretary the guy who's going to I'm going to interview. And she entered deuces ourself. I'm Norma's cleric and I'm going to interview. Norma S- cleric is the first black licensed architect in America. Wow and that's history from there I mean. Of course I was terribly intimidated by. She had a New York accent very nice looking woman and she took me back to the studio a CD of white shirts and white men and she's the boss over then. She walks me down the row because I did well in the interview. She made an offer. The first person she stopped introduced me to this young black man named Steve Lot. Steve Lot was just Mr Khoo. La Cool and I was Mr Polyester waren country so we became very good friends. He taught me the ways of La and became business partners. And we're business partners to this day. Nice Nice what was La like back. Then when I got done before and yet I got married was back in the in the eighties late seventies eighties. La was live and it was a new experience for me. There was just so much action so much activity so much to explore People Black People upwardly mobile interesting had layers of experience and travel and the party scene all of that. It was just happening back then that back then they had they had clubs speak easy. Jackie O's red onion places. You could just go know talking about but just places you could go and just experience. La and then on the other hand had friends from all spectrums. So I'd go. Backpacking up to Sequoia National Park at race. I had a friend that had a portion. We'd go porsche racing and you know it's just so many opportunities that I had no clue about in Indiana that this whole wide world was opening up for me and it was just every day wasn't adventure then at work just get tremendous opportunities. Norma at I think I was a pretty good architects. Oh if you good she's GonNa give you a shot on. Open up some doors for you professionally. Norma opened up doors for me and gave me opportunities to work on a really good projects really high profile projects and I got a chance to work closely with one of the partners Alan Rubinstein and he just opened up more doors for me and I started to make personal relationships with some of his client to they. Just talk to me because you know I got the job done and Alan was happy. What was it like being a black architect then versus now again. I was blessed because I saw norma. Yeah and I was like okay. I do this and then in Los Angeles at that time. There were several successful black architectural firms. Bob Can Art Harold Williams John Williams. Jack Heywood Vince probey. Just it went on and on and they were successful because they had political leadership. That would advocate for them that they would tell a developer. You are hiring. This black architect wind story. There ain't no minority or small business architect. Yeah and that enabled black to build a really good body of work. They got major county projects. They got major institutional projects. They got major educational projects because of the leadership would advocate for them so once again. I was very fortunate to see Success. Examples of success examples of black architects who were successful and then also to give honor to Paul Williams. He died the year. After I got here he died in. Nineteen eighty. Okay and I remember the day at Gruen. Somebody walked up to my desk. Paul Williams just died and I said well who's Paul Williams and they looked at me like I had three is. I didn't know and a lot of people didn't know and people are only now starting to understand his legacy and his greatness and so there was always a glass ceiling for black architects. Always however that glass ceiling was substantially higher than the ceiling for black architects is today for black architectural firms. Today and I mentioned that earlier there to statistics we need to know about black architects. One is at nationwide. There's only two percent of all license. Architects are black. That was that's been the same for fifty years to precise estate at two percent. Is that right? Steve is for for fifty years fifty two years. Two percent of all licensed architects are black. That is a sobering statistic but it speaks to the lack of nurturing the lack of opportunities for black architects. I might go a little further. Maurice to say that I don't blame White Society for that. Actually I blame more black society. We don't need why Phosa Hirose at black folks. What Hiros we'd be just fine. I believe that situation goes across the board. That's that's a we're at this crossroads right now. We got to turn around and start helping each other. We gotTA start reaching back. We gotta start trusting one another. We have to start loving one another. But that's all connected to knowing who you are and who you are and where come from and that's the spiritual aspect that I believe is continually being pushed out of our culture that is essential to our culture and essential to us being able to come together now early on when you introduce yourself though the those the first thing you said you're like I'm a man of God. How does your faith influence your work in the projects that you take well number one influences me to keep getting up coming coming toward believing that the vision I have for myself my my profession? My career will happen may not happen in my time. But it's going to happen as long as I stay under this umbrella of faith stay under this belief in God this God centered life where God is at the top of my life. It's like a pyramid. We're God's at the top my family and my community is at the base and everything else fits inside that pyramid. And as long as I stay within I call it an integrity box. I believe that I will achieve what God has set for me. And it's it's a journey of obedience. It's a journey of humility. And it's it's a journey of discernment so something that's sort of big right now. I think in La probably many other. Urban areas is gentrification. Something interesting you said. In our earlier conversation we had was that you see gentrification as a catalyst to Afro Future Ism can you expound on that a bit it goes back to the point I said about crossroads. We're at a very critical point in our society and in our country and I believe it's really dependent upon all of us especially black people to break out. Whatever these this chain we have around our brains and to express ourselves. We're getting pushed out pushed around oppressed and yet the talented tenth. That they're always going to get. There's yeah but then you got ninety percent that aren't and so this is what's happening with. I think gentrification isn't a fair word but that's the word because it's a negative but there are there are positive things about gentrification. Steve talked about good. Things can happen but you have to have ways to ensure that we are not displaced from our communities this right ear. Lamar duparc Baldwin Hills wizar- hills this is one the last intact black communities in urban America. And we are threatened. And so this we've seen what happened in Harlem. We've seen what happened in new street. We need to understand that and come together with our creative unlimited creativity and work together to make statements that help to mitigate this term called gentrification so that we can have this balance we can stay in our communities and other demographics are welcome to come in our community but this is our community and we should have a culture that speaks to our community. And that's why our park is so important is so important to amplify what Lamar Park is. It is the Cultural Capital of black Los Angeles and I believe it will set an example to be the cultural capital of black America. There's there's so much potential here in the park in a matter of catalyzing all the potential we have this building here owned by a black man. Now now I'm getting old. I've I've forgotten how calloway thread Kaushik. Thank you dame in across the street community build is owned by a black organization. You've got been called chaos black on you. And then you've got the anchor of Art Practice. They own about three buildings. Mark Bradford the internationally known artists Black Man. And you've got all these black ownership. Housing project was on. Well he sold it. But he's a black man that some of those buildings on forty third place are owned by black owned. Pull well for callaway. Owns this whole block. So you've got this opportunity and across the street across the street. This parking lot should be black on. It's going to go out for a developer R P. I'm going to be the develop. I'm telling you that right now. You know bees developer for this site across the street and it's going to be African American cultural and Conference Center that celebrates our culture that that talks about our history from whether you want to know the Hebrew history the African history the Morrish history up all of the all of the rich history that we have that we don't celebrate the many of us don't even know you know our roots before slavery which are deep and important that define us but we don't know but once we do know I tell you that we're going to have our power. We know who we are. Got rebuilds to us who we are and whose we are. That's when the power's GONNA happen. And that's when you're GONNA see tremendous change right right absolutely so we've been seeing. Some of your projects are cycling. Highness as we've been talking when you look back at like the portfolio of work that you've done is there one project in particular that really stands out to you as being like your signature project. Not yet now yes easy to say that's one of my biggest struggles is my body of work and the only comfort. I have is that architects. Don't really reach their stride. Until they get in their sixties and Seventies. That's my comfort is as you know. The best is yet to come and Cultural Conference Center across the street. I feel very good about the future. My experience and my body of work. I've had a lot of great projects. Destination Crenshaw was was a great experience I got to work with nips you hustle. I was there the night that the name Destination Crenshaw was born you park prep the new school the Middle School. We had a community meeting and Nipsy Russell would agree to be there. The whole school showed up off. People know kids show up at a community meet the whole school. We had that we had captured them. And we got some great ideas from them about what this project could be. And that's why so important for us a bill that bridge with our young people. They're the ones that came up with the idea. Call it Hashtag Destination Crenshaw because they wanted to make it a I again. I'm not a social media person. But they wanted to have it as social media and it was born out of their vision out of their understanding of where we are today and so they had that kind of vision that creative vision of a social media and we have that knowledge of architecture planning infrastructure. And that's where I think the power is going to be when we come together the two generations. Yeah let's shift gears a little bit. There's anecdote that she told me yesterday while we were riding around about Muhammad Ali. You can share the antidote. If you want to share as a lead into that who are some of the people that are really like inspired you throughout your career. Norma's glare she was. She was one of the first people that I was just an all of and actually my business partner. Steve Lot Steve. Louis I see Steve. Lot was one of the most talented men I know in St Louis is one of the nicest men that I know and talented and between the two I. I kind of grabbed something from both of them and try to try to be who I am. There have been men. My Dad played the most the influence in my life of being a good man and being honest he got up and went to work every day. He took care of his family and never fail and that I got the benefit of seeing that to see in how a man models manhood no matter how he was discriminated against. He came from the south even in his job. He still kept doing what he did. And that inspired me to to just keep getting up. There's always gonNA be disappointment. There's always going to be discrimination and then Muhammad Ali Mohammed Ali as as a young man. I observed him and I was so impressed by how you couldn't stop it. He was so confident and so arrogant to a point but he believed in himself. And you have to be that way in order to win to fight that fight and even though they took away his belt he kept fighting even though they prosecuted and try to hold him down he kept fighting and he was he sacrificed. He sacrificed his life for what he believed and he sacrificed his livelihood for what he believed in. And that's something that's very important to me and I think as all of us get into the business world you have to be careful not to compromise because your integrity is so important as you get older and you you start to. Maybe enjoy some success. You WanNa have success with some integrity. Yeah and so. That's what I saw in Muhammed Ali. That's what I saw in some of the older athletes particularly Muhammad Ali. And it's just always stay with me. Do Your Sons WanNa follow in your footsteps? No THEY WANNA follow in my footsteps in terms of being a businessman. They see how hard I work and they see that. Where's the money kids? They're about him. Pay Their bag in paid and now working hard and have fun is a whole nother kind of you know. Value System that the millennials and whatever the other generations you call you call them but it's very digitally based and they just work from a different para on both of my sons definitely have high ambitions and they want to do well in life and they would be interested in working with me if I'm able to turn the corner and turn like an architectural firm a traditional architectural firm into something that is non traditional that speaks to some of the community building that I'm talking about. Okay that's interesting the here. We have a lot of designers here in the room. Of course this is American Institute of Graphic Arts all that jazz. What advice would you give to designers that are looking to kind of use their skills and their gifts for? Let's say I want to say community activism because I feel like a lot of the work that you're doing is putting back into the community you're making and creating these built spaces that not only celebrate the community but also sort of it gives it a place. It gives a marker of some sort. What advice would you give for someone that wants to sort of follow in that same fashion? The first thing I would say is believe in yourself. Whatever it is that in your heart that you're passionate about you gotta believe in yourself because the world is going to try to tell you different. The world is going to try to make you conform to what they think you should be. Whatever demographic you fit in so believing in yourself is number one and give back gotta give back is so important to give back to share. Your gifts is so important and I think if you do those two things things will start happening. Because if you're giving back things happen they just doors open opportunities. Come I mean this is opportunity? Terry skied because I I. I'm in Lamar Park. Giving and Terry just say you know talked a role and here I am. I mean we were yesterday again. We were at the coffee shop and I got to see it in action. I mean every person out here like cave shook your hair you talk like thinking you even talked someone down. That was kind of like having a bad day. And everything like. It's amazing how much you're a part of this community and how much you give back to it you know. So it really sort of establishes you as being of the community but also someone that cares about where the community goes in the future. I just think that's important and everybody that you know I can see you. Ask Them for that advice. Everybody everybody has a way of giving back your your way in. May Not Become Moore Park Dillwyn homeless people and stuff like that but everybody can give back. Everybody has as a way has has a gift to share and to give back. What's been the most important lesson of your career man? My goodness I think you know. That's that's very interesting. The most important part of my career I think is is is my constitution of integrity. Because I've made there been some tough decisions and I made the decision based on integrity. Although was extremely tempting to go the other way and I chose integrity. Now certainly didn't help my bank account but I chose integrity piece and I think peace is the most important thing that a man or a woman in have in their life. No all of your projects. At least from the ones that again that are cycling behind us and dissipation crenshaw and the others that you mentioned they have these very long time line so maybe this question might not apply. But I'm asking anyway like where do you see yourself in the next five years like it's twenty twenty five What do you see yourself working on? See this cultural conference center just being completed. It's a five year plan. We're in the very first second. And the second month of that five year plan I see two years. Spent getting financing and getting the right financial pro forma funders partners all of that lined up three or construction project my lease mile. Our Office is downtown. My lease expires in five years. I plan on having my office on the top floor is going to be a five story structure of this Cultural Conference Center and I plan on using that. As an example they encourage communities across the country on how to pull their resources together and not trust or depend on. Government are any charitable venues but to be self supporting and have a level of self determination. My wife doesn't like that that term so determination but the fact of putting it all together with your own resources I I use. Booker. T. Washington as an example back in the day. There was this clash if you will. They stay they'd like to divide us back then. It was booker. T. Washington and W E boy. Yeah then it was. Martin Luther King and Malcolm X. But Booker T. Washington started the first architectural school at Tuskegee and his whole curriculum was designing construction maintaining building making the bricks understanding. How the whole cycle of building construction? That's an architect was a master builder. That was the first black architectural school. The second school was Howard University and Howard. University was one of the leaders was w e the boy and w e Howard University needed federal funding To Fund the school so they had to act like the traditional white architect. Who is the role? Don't roll up your sleeves. You know white shirt. Don't get your hands dirty just design and so unfortunately that school of thought became prevalent in all schools black schools of architecture so we kind of. Meld it in or with the traditional white male elitists former practicing. And that's now we are emulating. We wanted to so much be like them and so here we are two percent and that's what we want to do with this. Cultural Conference Center is build it. Manage it. Maintain it there's there'll be a catering kitchen partner with L. A. Trade TECH BILL. Jobs have people have a sense of ownership to this project offer. Public shares community combined shares in too. Because it's not a charity. It's a prophet. There's revenue streams. We want to make something that people can feel own. People can feel that they're getting paid and it's been a source of jobs. We just didn't get that you know architecture school just teaches you how to bill make bill pretty buildings and then on top of that only ten percent get to do that. So it's really. I think. The whole education architecture education process for particularly for black architects needs to change. Do you think black. Architects design like white architects. We try and you see where that's getting us. What do you mean Burnett look around so my point out a building that was designed by a black architect? And that's probably a nice building by point is there ain't a whole lot and if you look around the city scape today you drive up and down crenshaw all these new buildings going up. I'M GONNA BE SAFE to say. One of them was designed by a black architect. I don't know if it was but I'll just say I would say none now. That's a horrible statement. But we're trying so hard to be like them and sometimes I think they'd be laughing at us because we're not moving forward. We've got to come together and understand it's about us. Yeah we don't we don't need them. I mean everybody else's all good but we need to start supporting us. We knew. Start loving us but then it goes right back to. We don't know who we are. And that's what this Cultural Conference Center. The concept of it is to teach us who we are. This is a place of learning. We're broken people. We have four hundred years of slavery oppression affliction would traumatize. And we're sitting around here not recognizing it. The end result is where we are and so two to understand that and biblically base. If you read the Bible and not look at it as a myth but look at it as a history book and don't Allow Society to marginalize it because the moral trends of society today think the Bible is old fashioned and you should just do what you WanNa do. That's very dangerous because the Bible is our history and that's a paradigm that many of us don't know it's not just Jesus with black was black in the Bible if you go back to biblical times and look at. What did people look like? Thousands of years ago in Israel in Persia in Syria. I s when you read the Bible you read about people that look like us. We don't recognize that if we knew that. That's where the power and and that's why I have peace my wife. She's much more aggressive about it. I don't have time. People are talking about is start glazing over guys might have to touch you drop see. I'm moving on paid. I got work to do. I know that selfish. I'm sorry. Yeah my wife to GonNa make me do better roll. This has been a great conversation again. I want to thank you for sharing. You know about your work and about your life. Where can people find out more about you and about your projects and what you're doing. Www rauner national dot com. It's a very outdated website. That needs help. I'm happy to get your comments. We have a the murder part village Terry Merck Park Village Dot. Org will talk about the Cultural Conference Center. But that's one of the things. My goal is to get better with social media and understand the digital age a lot more. I need to do better. Well I think certainly with this work that you're doing that's making these big public spaces and everything. The word will get out there so being ahead of it will help a lot. I think yes. Well I mean that's the conversation. I WanNa thank you rolling so much for coming on the show for sharing your story when you were introduced as an urban visionary really saw yesterday when we wrote around for people that are listening. We wrote around. La showed me view park. And I think it was the view coming down towards Saint Bernadette S- shells believe at the Catholic school. Yeah on stock. Not Don Philippi Don Pooley Bay and I forgot the scene of you like that and when I think of the term urban visionary it makes me think for you that you probably see so many spaces like you see the possibility you can look at the empty lot and see what can come up there you can look at. Maybe the you know blighted building and see what it should be and I like more of that is what's needed as we progress into the future. Because certainly you know. La's a big city La's overpopulated city and so there's GonNa be a need to have more spaces that are not just for us but also to help make sure that we have equitable future. And I think it's really great that you're one of the vanguards of helping to make that happen so thank you for coming on the show. I appreciate it. Thank you Maurice and I do also congratulate you on your achievement with the Smithsonian and. I know your mom is very proud of you. Thank where's where's may have asked questions even just come here please. Two things real quick one just to clarify a point of correction about normal. She was the first black licensed female architect in California. The other thing is the constant sort of return to how we have been victims of Miss Education or under education. How important you feel inculcating are true histories authentically told by us today into curriculum would be in freeing just providing knowledge that you feel is essential for particularly our young people to go beyond where they've been able to go so far. I have a simple theory about imagery and television and education is all about inspiring people and I think the majority demographics get inspired all day long but reading history about their history and their achievements in just there just all good but it's rare that we in particularly in architecture read about our success. Our journey our knowledge. So I think just by showing and illustrating those kinds of success stories. Even do something about Norma something about Paul Williams. That's in our curriculum. That it starts to young people will just be automatically. Have that kind of impression that all okay. Somebody like me is doing it. I I know I could do that so that that's where I see that need and education. I give you props in your shoes with some shoes shoes. My Son my son game to him for Christmas. I taste you mentioned earlier. About how buildings speak different things to you and you know how senior project to take years and years. How do you maintain keeping your vision along with like Nike loss with like politics or things like that considering a project? One of the things that that keeps me motivated on these long projects is to have like in the queue. More projects like crenshaw's opening this year. Hopefully we're working on the west side extension. Which is a subway to the sea under Wilshire? Boulevard that's not gonNA open for another six years but see that's in the queue and you think the crenshaw project's GonNa be transformative watch. This Wilshire. Project the Wilshire Corridor is GonNa explode you going to see high rises. It's going to be like New York data. It may take ten twenty years but you look twenty years from now. The Wilshire corridor between libra and Beverly Hills scholar. Like New York is going to look like New York. And so those are the kinds of things that keep me motivated. We're also doing the planning for the Crenshaw. North Project which means it's GonNa the Crenshaw Line will extend from exposition all the way up into Hollywood. That's going to be transformative so to have the opportunity to be vision in all of this transformation that that just gives me you know ten years ago by it just keeps going. Thank you so much for being here what I went to school. I went to Columbia in Chicago and I was going for interior architecture and anybody who looked like me so I wound up being a project manager for eight years I was burned out and pushed out by the Ivory Tower of it. All and now that I'm doing my own thing. How do you see people like me? Who are not necessarily of this neighborhood are of this people. I want to be able to give back. But how do we stop thinking that blackness as one monolith because I don't fit in I don't like you or I don't have your experience for us to be able to come together and be accepted in these neighborhoods? Which maybe we haven't been from originally but are part of because of our culture. I'm sorry. What is your name. Allison Allison one thing. I would recommend is to be active in organizations cultural organization professional organizations and I stress the word active noma the National Organization of minority architects every year we have a project pipeline is a summer camp for to introduce young kids to architecture and to to just be involved in that and then it's just door start to open you start to meet people you start to network Lamar Park. Has We love Lamar Park. Ns Cy young people like you that that are promoting Lamar Park. You have to search Kinda get in. Then you start to see this this network. But that's what I would really really encourage you to do even if you just start with noma that it just branches from their La has a tremendous network of black folks who are actively trying to make a difference in a in a positive way. Okay here's Shaw. Here is the next question based on all of your years of studying architecture. What why philosophies understandings about life about people have you gained over time? What have you career? What else ideas that? You share with people based on the ideas of architecture. That's deep number. One philosophy number one you you never give up. You never give up number two. I C the humanity of everybody. I see the human person I and I think that's important whether White Black Brown yellow or whatever I look for the humanity in a person and I think it's a mid western thing where you get people to benefit without just cause you're white. I'm not thinking. Oh you know you're a bad person or or anything like that. I look at their eyes. Fill their spirit. And then I listen so I think that it gives me a sense of confidence in any place that I go that I look for the humanity in a person and then go from. There is fairly simple i. I don't have a complex set of rules or you know I really base my life on on Biblical principle. Follow my passion there. There's something in everybody that you know you know that's what what you. WanNa do and it doesn't matter that will maybe it's not gonNA make a lot of money or maybe everybody else isn't doing it fast what you WanNa do. If that's where your passion is driving you. You should continue to pursue it. I roll it. Thank you so much for you both doing this and for the Center for doing this. I have two questions. One is short one requires detail the first one. What pushback if any have you experienced when it comes to using more sustainable materials and things can containers shipping containers or recycled materials when it comes to actually contributing to that structure because I know there is pushback and then the second part of the question is what pushback have you experienced when it comes to making our cities look futuristic? You know what I'm talking about so you speak to that for a little bit. The first question sustainable materials to things cost and logistics cost is is simple but sustainable materials. The brother here today Richard. Tim and he has a system of glass. It's not solar panels but this glass can transform into electric energy and so I was immediately intrigued and interested. Our my question is cost and so he gave me the answer that it can pay for itself and plus tax incentives and then. The second question is logistics logistics from an architectural perspective. Is You already I? C B O Number Research. Report number has been used before. What are some of the drawbacks that you don't know about yet? So those are the two major pushbacks if you will and it and it takes innovation and courage to take that step. I definitely want to follow up with ten. No one brother and I wanted you know see see anyway. I can help a brother. Who's and that's another thing. It's like if you see a brother or sister. There's about something positive. Y'All got to open up a door. You know just what we should be doing now. The second question. Repeat that second question I feel like our cities are not looking how they should look in twenty twenty vision right promised flying cars in we have those are not readily available. Okay so the great you laugh. You laugh about flying cars. But I'M GONNA go back to what I've been talking about since one thousand nine hundred eighty nine and that's autonomous vehicles. David Autonomous Vehicle. Technology has been in place since one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. You know why we don't see it yet. Besides people being scared but that's not the reason there's money. Insurance companies can get paid out on money. Que Get paid tax. Pay All these people that drivers unions don't get paid all these people to stand in line not to get paid are blocking. And that's what happens with technology now when a crisis happens then people start getting out of the way but right now that kind of technology futuristic technology is here is just there are competing interests that stand. The Ain't going to get paid so what I'm figuring. They're making deals with the insurance companies. Now they're making deals with the truck drivers union so they can share. Somehow these can move forward. Well thank you for doing this tonight. Man It's always a pleasure to listen to you and sharing your passion and your knowledge is really important. I had a question that goes to something where you know your notion of your your community center and the fact that you've talked about having it be a sustainable Operation what do you think you can look forward? Maybe another ten years. Do you think is going to happen in terms of ownership in the broader community? Here because you see it changing right now and how does this committee looked like it? Does today if you don't own it well. The truth is Michael that this place is GonNa look different ten years from now. But that doesn't mean that that our culture should not be the predominant culture. I'm a true believer in in an open society and I am very very pro black but that doesn't mean I'm anti anything I'm just unapologetically black. I think that if we continue to promote our culture and we continue to ensure that projects like destination crenshaw are implemented a project that Cultural Conference Center are implemented that we patronize are black businesses to sustain them. I think that we're GONNA be fine. I just think it's going to be but to me. That's that's a good thing so I guess the follow up with that question of what does the future look like sustainable materials. How do we get young black people to understand urban planning and transit and things like community land trusts right? How do we get us to get together to understand? All of these things and to understand like parking is a huge issue when we're talking about housing for the one to one right for every unit that needs to be built there needs to be a parking space for it. How do we do that? How do we put that education into our landscape? A community activism is very important. You talked about lack community. Land trusts the the owner of this space. Mr Damien Goodman is one of the largest voices about community land trusts and advocating for our community we have to rally around leaders who are willing to be a voice and I think the one thing that we have to know that there's power in numbers are elected. They pay attention when they see numbers you know. If they just see Damian's voice they are Damian. But if these Damian I two thousand other people then they're going to start listening and I think it's very important that we do rally around folks like Damian who have a vision who has a true heart to improve our communities and we be a voice. We signed the petitions. We make the phone calls. We show up at the meetings and this is just community. WanNa one you go to any other community and I can promise you. That's what's going on in. It's just that we need to adopt that culture and again that comes to that whole realization or that revelation if you will of who we are going to wrap it up on on behalf. Eta L. A. I WanNa thank you all for being here tonight and to our wonderful amazing guests. Maurice Jerry and rolling a wily another round of applause from all right. Do Shout out my folks in Indianapolis my mom my sister my cousins my boys Greg and Tommy. Shout out to my folks have ron or national shout out to my two sons shout out to St Louis. Who's right here and last but certainly not least shout out to my lovely wife and thank you everybody for coming out big big thanks to Roland Day Wiley. Thanks to a Aga Los Angeles. Thanks to the audience that came out to the live show. And of course thanks to you for listening you can find out more about Roland. And his work through the links and the show notes revision path DOT COM. And of course. Thanks to our sponsors for this episode. Facebook DESIGN AND ABSTRACT. Facebook design is a proud sponsor for vision path to learn more about how the facebook designed community is designing for human needs at unprecedented scale. Please visit facebook dot design. This episode is also brought to you by abstract design. Workflow management for modern design teams spin this time searching for a design files and tracking down feedback and spend more time focusing on innovation and collaboration like glitch but for designers abstract. Your team's version control source of truth for design work with abstract conversion sketch design files. Present work request reviews collect feedback give developers direct access to all specs. All from one place. Sign your team up for free. Fourteen Day trial today by heading over to www dot abstract dot com provision path is brought to you by lunch a multidisciplinary creative studio in Atlanta Georgia. Are you looking for some creative consulting for your next project? Then let's do lunch visit us at. Yep It's lunch dot com. I'll put a link in the show. Notes this podcast is created hosted and produced by me Maris Cherry with engineering and editing by RJ. Basilio our intro voiceover is by music. Man Jury With Insurance Ultra Music by yellow speaker. Our transcripts are provided by glitch. So what did you think of this episode? Hit US up on twitter or instagram or even better by leaving us a rating and review on Apple. Podcasts I'll even read your review right here on the show as always thank you so much for seven years in the game. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next time.

Los Angeles Destination Crenshaw Maurice Cherry Indianapolis developer Norma S Steve Lot Lamar Park Cultural Conference Center crenshaw corridor partner Roland Wiley Crenshaw Crenshaw crenshaw Destination Crenshaw facebook Paul Williams Smithsonian America Steven Heller
A new gentrification crisis

Post Reports

23:52 min | 8 months ago

A new gentrification crisis

"Post reports is brought to you by Purina, peering knows the value of giving pets. The absolute best. That's why they only use trustworthy ingredient sources in their pet foods, and every ingredient in their products has a purpose learn more purina dot com slash cares. From the newsroom of Washington. Is Watching. This is back brain. Flory over the phone I'm this is post reports I'm LS in former team powers. It's Friday August seven. Today. How the pandemic could accelerate gentrification the problem with a lack of representation on TV and the rise of anti racist reading. So we know that current virus pandemic has really hit black and brown communities the hardest they're both the most likely to contract virus and die from it, and so the next natural question is to look at the economic impacts. How are asking American Asian American and Latinos faring economically amid all of this in mid the Toronto virus recession. We know unemployment data that the three groups are the most likely to be unemployed since the pandemic started, and that's because they're also the most likely to work in industries that have been the hardest hit such as hospitality restaurants hotels, tourism. I'm tracy jam I write about race and the economy at the Washington Post. I wanted to know how does the economic impact affect a historic minority enclave like Chinatown like Boyle Heights in Los Angeles like south. La formerly known as South Central and. Opening especially in Chinatown and in Boyle Heights is There's already been a fair amount of gentrification over the years especially since the great recession and was happening. Los. Angeles is not unique. It's happening in Houston is happening in New York is. In a bunch of American cities. Yeah, and I imagine that this isn't just unique to la their ethnic enclaves around the country. That are also dealing with the consequences of the coronavirus. What are some of the other places that you're seeing this happen? So I focus on La. It's one of the largest most diverse cities in America, but there is similar issues popping up across America and a lot of these ethnic neighborhoods have been confronting gentrification. In recent years. I spoke with Nico Avena who's a business owner in Boyle Heights, a Latino enclave in Los Angeles and Nego Avena and his wife had his store that suggested prior to the great recession that they. Ended up having to close as a result of the economic fallout of the recession, and so they're afraid that the same thing will happen to this second incarnation of their store, which is also kind of like a cultural slash community space. The community is concerned about gentrification both in terms of residents being pushed out who can no longer afford rents, but also business owner is being pushed out won't be that. is where against the gentrification of all community and he just doesn't want to let his community down again by having to close this space that so many people have come to rely on I'm curious to your paycheck protection program plays into this the inspector general of the small business. Administration has actually issued a report being the agency for failing to follow the congressional guidelines which were supposed to prioritize minority owned businesses. Regional analysis done by UCLA economists has shown that the three neighborhoods that we focus on in the story. Boyle. Heights Chinatown Lamar Park in south La. Those neighborhoods are getting disproportionately fewer loans than neighborhoods in three other commercial areas in Los Angeles at are predominantly white with the author you alone something you have to pay back until for that's not the direction that we wanna go like we don't want to fall into debt in the middle of a pendant however, minority owned businesses are just less likely to access that type of government support for several reasons a lot of them are not tied to the big banks which made it a lot easier to access does loans some of them simply don't WanNa take out more loans that they know they won't be able to afford to pay back. You know assuming here known from me that's Something that you had to pain back and that's really putting in a situation where were that's not creating self-sustainability. If you have to depend on someone back, even though the loans could become grants if they meet certain criteria if the money is used for certain things like maintaining payroll, some of the business owners I talked to did the grant said, it will help them in addition to you know relying on takeout or switching their business to online. But some of these business owners are just really small and you know sometimes are language barriers and the application process is complicated so hard to navigate without. Someone guiding them behold head who who decided to get the Mon and he was telling you it's not percentage. percentage. A way to make it easier for them to access and have it be grants. They would certainly welcome that the problems that the current virus it's highlighting are. Issues that have been happening in America for a very long time since the beginning of our country's history. So The coronavirus has only served to cast a spotlight on those very real issues of systemic racism and this is just one of them. Tracy Jane Reports on Grace Economy for the post. Didn't. Really. Want to do it the right way man I'm not gonNA worn nothing I just want to commit no porn this. Time no way impossibly. Romney is a show on Hulu about a Muslim guy who makes a bunch of human mistakes while he's trying to get closer to God and along the way he's trying to understand what faith means to him. To figure out my call. To a brings you. Want to change and. You can help me. is definitely a different kind of show from Muslims that have previously been on TV. It didn't show the typical stereotypes that we see. Typically you have stereotypes like almost terrorist or taxi driver or restaurant owner like you see this nuance character who is trying to run towards faith rather than away from it. This year Qureshi, she's a freelance journalist based in Memphis and she's talking about the comedy show Romney streaming on Hulu. It was created by stars, Comedian Romney Yousef, and it was just nominated for three emmys including best actor in a comedy for Yousef himself. It's a groundbreaking show about a Muslim American trying to navigate the rule of faith in his life, but it also sparked some controversy within the Muslim community cure disgust the show with post reports producer Lena Muhammad. So this show is really popular and critically acclaimed, but there's been a lot of controversy around the shows takes on some really taboo topics in the Muslim community like sex drugs, alcohol infidelity basically all things, right. So these controversies started this conversation within the Muslim community there taboo topics for a reason, and unless someone brings it to the table no one's GonNa talk about it, and so there was a lot of dialogue within the. Muslim community with friends and families, and then again with Muslim twitter just talking about what they liked about the show what they didn't like what they wanted to see different than how they wanted. Maybe you know some changes to the next season and it really opened up that door of conversation. Yeah and sometimes the chauffeur, his conversations within one's own family I mean I know for me I watched some of the second season with. My parents and it definitely got us talking about what is okay and what's not okay and what Islam means to each and every one of them in ways that we never addressed before right and I even had discussions with my own family. So to my cousins, we did a zoom call astrud Fatma I should listen Bach assigned overseas and fatherm lives in California, and then I live in Memphis Tennessee, in the south we're in. Different areas and we watches one show and we can connect on it in different levels and we have three very different perspectives and very different Muslim experiences I found like how like my Muslim experience in America is so much different than his I mean granted I live on the West Coast in California in the bay area in it's like you know different like diversity wise and stuff like that, and so I think premier highlighted like. Even within America, how different my experience was so my lives in California, and she's always been very secure in her identity as a Muslim. But for me living in the south might experience has been very different I've struggled with it and then ushered who lives in. Pakistan. which is a Muslim majority. Country also has a very different. From American Muslims actually will. newfound oprah suitable. Yeah in what way? Independent. There's not a lot of shaves having listens in them or having many innocent. been. Mayor. Talk about. I had been listening experience. In particular area and how that affects you on the all this changing a lot of people are more accepting about a lot of things though like a lot of Muslims drink now along listens are. You know been guards and stuff like that. But that's our talked about. and. I love the fact that he disbanded. Everyone Lake. Let's talk about. And so talking mapping things, we were able to have these conversations within our own family and understand how we see the world and how we see our own experiences. But while the show foster this safe space for us to have these uncomfortable conversations, it also got a lot of criticism on pushback from within the community because of what we just talked about the fact that it has it all me as this hyper sexual character is just one of many criticisms the show has received. What are you doing? Is that the conning that we just here's. Yeah was just. Cleaning it or I was just checking if there was any holes in it, you know there'd be a hall you ever see the way they should these things, John Trout there's like a bunch of dude who are those dudes like I don't know them you don't you know. So this just just to make sure that there's a faulty one and you do this like every time we add sex. Is just as a SEC. I feel I kind of offended. There's nothing to worry about it's just it's just so that we don't have to worry even if like something crazy happened you know I'm on the pill. Ray and if the pill didn't work Do the responsible thing and like take care of it. I mean look I'm totally pro women getting to choose what to do with their bodies. I am but I'm Muslim. So I'm just pro us not having to make that choice like you're Muslim thought in the way that I'm Jewish it's a cultural thing I didn't know that you were Muslim-muslim. Yeah and its practice conversation about what it means to have a Muslim onscreen and without Muslims should look and sound like I I can't have sex. Today's the first day of Ramadan. So we can't eat or drink or. have sex from sunrise sunset. So what you can only get night. Actually. Can't at all I mean never really supposed to unless I'm. Married to the person but. You know obviously do. This month I I try to be. You know. I tried to get rid of all distractions. This is something that I'm Yussef he's the creator of the show. He's also the main character on it as addressed before the premiere of, of season, two on Hulu he went onto social media and he had this entire note sort of like explaining the problem with representation phrase. So actually reached out to him because of his note I saw your note to your fiance media and I thought that would be an interesting thing to talk about so. had. have. What were your thoughts? And he wanted to kind of just clarify his perspective on the show. I. Do think that the audience is in an unfair position there's. Not, a lot of content to choose from that is in. Other izing that speaks to. You know a part of the experience from within the community uncertainly, I would save for you know the generation I grew up in it's like we had. Aladdin you know. Like we. Look like or that or just like news and terrorism and whatnot, and the fact that there is a lot of weight that comes on a show. That's the only representation available for the Muslim community right now, I think that a show like mine the way it ended up being positioned is it's called the Muslim show, and so he kind of does this thing that you know like I said, it's Unfair, it's unfair to the you're to feel like this is the only choice and I think for me in its position that I'm in It's really important for me to not operate from thinking that it's going to be the only choice that people have because then you know I have to make something kind of like by democracy where it's like. Well, let me make something that like. Fits as many people as possible in covers, everything because this is our only shot That's a really bad way to make something and I get that. But I still think that it can be problematic at times I mean just the way that the Muslim women were portrayed the show. I mean we didn't see a lot of depth to their characters especially in season one, you could move out. Okay. You're choosing to stay there guys my parents are not gonNA. Let me move out before I married. I can't control I married. So really I'm just Until I married as a Muslim woman viewer both watching season one and season two. That is something that I definitely took issue with I. Just found myself asking why can't the hijab wearing character be stronger or why is the monks character on the weaker side? Romney heavy. Are You Watching the game. You. Said you coming half an hour go have you father is coming home soon I have to go to the market we don't even have milk. I can't control that. You. These EPS with cars I told you I don't know who they are. You. Love, I gotTA. Watch his game I gotTa Look Be Blue Camry outside at two minutes. Okay. I just called it. He's GonNa take you to the store and I'll pick you up. You give them our address. Definitely. One big criticism that he got was a about the Muslim women in his show. He has these really deep male characters and the women just seem to be really flat compared to them, and so it almost seems like the women in a show our props for these men stories make men stories better, which can kind of be seen as a reflection as to how Muslim men in the community see the women in their lives, which is kind of. A sad thing to think about, and I think that it's definitely valid criticism because it is a show created by Muslim guy and there's a perspective that comes with that on Muslim women I. Think that what you see on the show although he has these characters of his mom and sister and I think that people related to them in some way I definitely saw some things and assist her and I see my mom in some ways in his mom but I think that it wasn't enough. Yeah but like as I was watching I couldn't help. But see the show through non-muslim is Sean. I may say that a asking myself like Oh my God wooder people going to think when they see this, go my God are they going to think that we're all liked us and we're not all like. I just feel very torn about it because like, yes, Romney is a show about when guys experience but at the same time, it is one of the only shows that we have right now. So there's still that burden right and I think that's what happens when you have. So few shows about the Muslim experience the audience is GonNa put a lot of way on this one particular show. It's the only representation we have. So we think it's the only shot we're GONNA get. So, everything has to be perfect. Every experience that he depicts on the show has to be perfect and that's what Romney's intent was when he sent out the no, it was to address what exactly that there is a weight that's put on the show you'll i. just I really enjoy discourse surrounded in this show truly for like conversations that I think are hard to have without the context of comedy owned hard to have without something like this to open them up in some way. And so I know a lot of the things uncomfortable but the intention is never to be sensational in the intention never to be disrespectful and I think that any shortcomings that like anything that's ever made has those are always going to be there on anything he mentioned he wanted to see more representation out there. For aren't as interesting to me as thirds in Fort like I wanna see you know places you know give needs to be a show around the Muslim woman like I mentioned in in the in the know like there needs to be a story about black Muslims in the like there's so many things that need to be told that really deserve their own twenty thirty episodes because. They're really meaty subject. Here Qureshi is a freelance journalist Lena Muhammad is a producer for post reports. The show Romney was recently renewed for a third season. and. Now, one more thing from graphics reporter. Brittany. Renee May's since the killing of George Floyd people have gone back to the streets to protest police brutality against black victims. But this time they've also flooded black-owned bookstores asking for anti-racists and social justice. Literature. I talked to a bunch of black bookstore owners and all of them have told me that their sales have gone through the roof for a bunch of titles bill to increase. I mean we've probably for. The last month than we build our entire first. Year Jazz Gilbert is the owner of reparations club in Los Angeles the rats of orders has been anti-racist titled. I also seen like a huge interest in. All of the other books that we carry and have carried for a long time when I talked to these bookstore owners. So many of them told me that they were overwhelmed this spike and demand as we're libraries and even publishers had a reprint a lot of these titles. And trying to figure out how to keep the doors open and quite literally a few days later. Trying to figure out how to hire more people to help fill orders. So we're seeing books like how to be an anti-racist by Abram candy on bestsellers list and me and white supremacy by side is gaining a new audience older books like the new Jim Crow. Alexander and James. Baldwin's the fire. Next time have also picked up steam and so of books by white authors like wait fragility by Robin. Angelo the other thing is that readers seem to be putting more of an effort to buy from these black owned businesses trying to put money towards causes that they care about diversifying your dollar can always be inactive protest and support. But while owners are excited about these trump and sales, they also see reason to be skeptical I'm careful to over acknowledge. People, just reading books by black people. I don't think it. I don't think it should be a revolutionary act. I think it's something people should have been doing for a long. Hi I'm it's bittersweet that. It took black and black trauma to get to this point, and they just don't know how long people will stay interested in anti-racist and black literature once the protests and. But this is still a really interesting moment since we didn't see the same kind of engagement with social justice literature after the killings of Trayvon Martin in two thousand twelve or Eric, Garner Michael Brown Tamir Rice in two thousand fourteen. Ultimately though it'll be important to see a long running commitment to black owned businesses, it's hard to make any business decisions around this influx because you don't know how long he anti-racism is going to be trending for lack of a better word So. Yeah. So I applaud people for taking that step. And I just hope it continues. Pretty name as isn't graphics reporter for the Post. That's IT for post reports. Thanks for listening. Our executive producer is not only consider our senior producer is Maggie penman. Our producers are Alexey St L. Rena Florez Lena Muhammed Jordan Marie Smith Rennie's for NAS key and Ted Muldoon who also composed theme music. The. Post, director of audio is just all I'm Nicole. Ellis. We'll be back Monday with more stories from the Washington. Post.

Romney Yousef Los Angeles America producer Boyle Heights Washington Washington Post business owner Toronto Memphis reporter Qureshi Lena Muhammad Purina California Angeles Los Flory
Dad Bod Rap Bod Ep. 111: Elaquent and Controller 7

Rock N Roll Archaeology

1:30:35 hr | 1 year ago

Dad Bod Rap Bod Ep. 111: Elaquent and Controller 7

"Dead Body Wrap Pod nate here. I've got David Ma on the line. David is our co host and handles the booking for this show so my best friend. Dave what is going on not much best friend but it could be here to hear me man. You're always I know it's so weird just to kind of set the scene for the listeners. Here I basically did our round of interviews for this recording session last night by myself and I text you in Damone and be like this is no fun without Is this weird sitting here by myself? Waiting for rescheduled interview like normally cracking jokes and like kind of talking and having a meeting. And I'm just sitting in my kitchen by myself but I appreciate you keeping the the emotive going And I am sure like our listeners. do as well touch on last time we kind of had this little bomb shelter conversation. But you know it's do these shows it's really cool that some people give a fuck and just the fact that they're fucking with us during this time makes me feel good about the world. Yeah you're welcome in. Yeah no worries. I'm happy to do it. It's just kind of like this. This was the first week it really settled in like. Oh like I'll try to talk to the guys on the phone but I don't know if it's going to happen in such a project you know what I mean. So I'm doing with you guys and frankly like one of the best things about doing the show is I have scheduled time to hang out with you guys and talk about hip hop. We touched on it a little bit. Last time it's feeling a little frivolous like all my interests are deeming them. Non Essential to use the parts of our times But here we are talking about hip hop. And I think we'll we're we're into the conway right. Yes yes of. You know very very fortunate to even be in this position to be bullshitting about conway but having set at super excited about right. I mean first off alchemist on another crazy run. Total much anything he touches. I mean he's he's MIDAS right. Now it's crazy up and and not in this overproduced way to you know what I mean. He's just like mailing. It's the other way it's minimal as to be. Damn that's like that. That's a very interesting approach. And it's I think the term drum list gets thrown around like way too much. There's quite a bit of for Cussin' it's just not so for grounded on many ways tracks like you and I are both pretty into the boldy James Price of tea in China L. P. And at the end of both considerate if not the best than one of the best records of this year and if you put your headphones in smoke that really listen. There's so much going on on the the VIC staples tracked surf and turf. I think I beat is just insane to mow totally totally. And it's good to see Vince back in or total He was his versus is tremendous. And you know you always forget about Vince. His presence I mean he steps onto the track. And it's like Whoa so it's really good to To get that track this year especially in these times and sort of to your point. I mean one of the best albums of the year. So far It's kind of shaky kind of delicate. Yeah you know what I mean. There's so much going on but if you know if you're not really paying attention it could just kinda come off as too dahmer rap out. Linka. Can Jerry in person just going like. Oh coke wraps and like Hungarian soft rock samples like her for you have actually with until like totally like the best possible version of that right right and I mean again. I mean not to harp on alchemists but I mean he's he's going towards the the John Cage Part of the curve and he's killing it totally. I wanted to kind of run past you that I just thought of while you were talking about. Vince is like I think you might have liked it a little bit more than I did. But I was not a big big fish theory guy right so vince kind of going in the electron ick festival crowd. Kinda like direction didn't really work for me as a listener rate like kind of a more straightforward rap sound perhaps to my detriment as like a kind of classicist but I think of him as kind of like an Internet comedian and like apprentice and like a voice of his generation and of crypt culture and like a lot of different things. And then like you said. It's like he comes out of nowhere with this fire verse. And it's like he's a fucking rapper dude And perhaps that's like you know like mischaracterization of him. But that's kind of what you know. It's just wondering what you think about that. Yeah well with the big fish album. Actually I felt like it was like miscarry characterization. I'm like who is this guy. Doing Dislike Street wraps over dancy music. I mean I guess he was doing tours. Were at the time where he was. Like Opening for stadiums and stuff. So I guess you know you want some lie tracks but No Dude I you know. I want the gangster expense. That was off of Doris you know what I mean. Totally so But anyway The Kenny Beats Cave show on Youtube. I did it. It's I watched them all and there was some really funny ones recently. But Vince is is like a masterclass clowning. People like when we'RE IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL. When like you just take the whole recess just clown each other like he's just like clown in case the whole time and it's so funny and he's pretty good natured about it but that's good yeah and like the rap is good but it just in terms of it being like a funny kind of set piece where it's just like. He's just going to cap on this goofy white dude. Who's like in the driver's seat for like the majority of huge hip hop it was pretty funny worth. Let's say if you want to take your mind off of it right on right on well speaking of Taking your mind off of it. I mean I'm sure a lot of the listeners have been quarantined and so denies. Did you heard about that killing the entire game? It's so interesting to watch. Someone emerge as the hero of the pandemic right. He's like a teenage beat boxer with boogie down. Productions shouted out on all of their major records. Then he had great solo singles. Like call me with the ill tour. Sample of just like his life fell apart and unlike became like a. I think like a drug addict. I'm a little unclear on the details of the and then and then he became sort of like an Internet blogger. Sort of Music Industry type and he did a lot of photography. Yeah totally look into the photography part. Because that's Kinda like I had followed him on I g before this just as we try to follow like the heroes of the Golden Age and he would post photos and stuff and then Yeah man he killed the game with a couple of live streams. I don't know. Is it still such a thing like? Is it still going on where it's like? He's getting one hundred thousand like the one the Saturday night of this weekend. Where like Michelle Obama and Natalie and there was like I. I'm like I'm not gonNA dance in my living room. This does not my steve but cool. Yeah Super Cool. I mean you know. He's playing like you. Know Butcher Throwback Shit. He's he played a lot of stuff. But I mean nine over set you have to totally ultimate ultimately if you get an from Michelle Obama He want you went. Yes totally so but yeah. I wanted to sort of laws that at you totally cool story and I will get in on it from the couch and I'm just like stupidly. Perhaps I'm more interested in the number than what he's playing and it's not like visually interesting though. He has pretty serious hat game. Yes I saw somebody tweet. I think it was a comedian. There is a wide brimmed hat a requirement for instagram. Wife that's hilarious. That's so funny but the other thing I wanted to bring up to you was how recent zoom session with some of our other. Yes draining it. So I- briefly popped into a live podcast by our buddies from call out culture. Which is Alaska's Iraq And Curly Castro and those cats. It was sofa and like I was like I. I was inbetween doing interviews for our show so I had like basically like twenty five minutes and I'm like not the loudest voice in the room and I didn't really know everybody who was in there so it was very interesting. Everybody was drinking Everybody was like going hard with the opinions. We had this really funny fun conversation about common OTC. Jean Claude van Damme Movies. Like it was crazy. It was really fun. There was some cats. I didn't know who we've sent like followed each other on twitter and stuff and like literally. It was a blast like you know. I don't use that term like right right onto like normal for a minute. Just be be funny. Be loose just like right away. It's actually very hard to hold a structured conversation with nine people on zoo. Basically handle this right now. I know exactly. We're not gonNA make queuing each other properly to like not talk over each other before like right now but yeah with nine people most of them drunk and a lot of them like pretty ferociously opinionated east coast dudes. I was getting a lot of listening and chuckling. What sage head nodding it was. Red Doodoo was really well. I appreciate the invite like I said I had played an edible was not ready and I would have just been. You know I would have been The quiet Asian guy on the screen totally veteran fun and we have a little something cooking with them and like even more inspired to finish it now because I was like. Oh this is super fine and like these guys are awesome and we're like very much on the same wavelength so I think it's it's inspiring me to put some time into our secret project. I'm not ready to talk about with them yet. towards the end of the week. Oh Nice Nice. Nice very looking much very much looking forward to that as well ended kind of like. I should probably say this off air. A The format that we discussed I think is going to work better than all six of US getting on a call and yelling at each other which is cool meals catered so yeah but you know I mean You know in the spirit of keeping things going and stuff. We have that upcoming interview with eloquent eloquent from wealth. Not from Toronto as you guys are going to here in a minute That's our lead this week. He is a beat maker and producer and fruity loops a staunch supporter from Canada. Who's got a an album out on Mello music group? We did it a couple of weeks ago before the pandemic so I guess. I should do a disclaimer about that for the listeners. Were not just monsters. Who don't even mention it. Everyone's like why are you going to kill? Why guys don't care so we also have a return guest this week. A friend of the program and Buddy of yours Controller seven has a new album out with mystique so called couch and we'll check in with him and you know it's just it's tough to roll out a project right now. Everybody's one hundred afraid but Talk one hundred dollars controller seven and his history with us. We'll controller seven. Obviously I mean of the answer con troop and you know. I've always just been a really big fan. I'm obviously with Left handed Straw and then his Random onoff's on bully were great as well Just always loved his attention to detail his ferocious drum programming. And I mean you know Years later you know it's like it's it kind of reminded me of like talking to slug. It's like we're talking about stuff that's twenty years old. It doesn't feel like it. You know and so. And so you know our little sort of back and forth and relationship that which built with controller. Seven has just been one of those experiences where it's like dude. You don't even know I'm your biggest fan and his whole thing is just being so humble normal which Certainly true but I'm just like you don't even know like I'm I'm I admire your work so much so we've gone to talk and we've gotten to Sort of discuss upcoming stuff and maybe perhaps some things in the works. And I'm just really grateful for that so to have him on the show and touch base with you again. I mean it's great and I'm looking forward to listening to that conversation for sure Cooman is as good as good to check in. I'm going to try to wrangle the MON as well. Maybe okay if I can all put him in between the segments but yeah GonNa cool stuff happening behind the scenes for us. You will will mention it when we can but it's just good to check in with you my friend. U2 Man and thank you again for keeping this going to do it. Yeah I'll I'll hit you on the DMZ and we'll we'll talk soon but man thank you peace. Ooh Dad rap pod another flight interview for Y'all we are international and right now we're talking to producer. Eloquent out of Toronto has been around for many moons has a lot of projects out in his new one forever is Pretty Long. Time just dropped. How's it going good good and I'm happy to be here. Thanks for having me absolutely I have to start off by saying I really admired the way you and your team rolled this project and the way you Kinda like leaned into the film imagery of it It worked on me. I kind of caught my eye and I just want to ask like how many people asked you if you had made a movie. It's too honest. It's actually nice little running joke with Me and the Homey Motel who actually did all the covers and the imagery 'cause like after we put out the first poster. I mean I probably had a lease and twenty different folks like my and my mom's like congratulated me like you madam. I had no idea that your film directors like that and Yeah Man I can't. I can't wait to see your film like you know if it's GonNa be in all theaters and I've that an after like decide Spot like man. I do they keep letting them sink. That kind of depending on who? It is correct them. We're just let them go on their misinterpreted. I mean if it's just some random some random dude I'll make I g or something like you know I'll make sure they know like not we're still. We're just doing an album. You know trying to do something interesting. They're all out but a couple of the homies. Who is expected to know? Better like heard went by it. All he's going to be over my beat machine not with a camera on. So that's been some. I think some folks thought that was just doing like a documentary or something like that Since you know like like the poster was I mean I? It's a dome poster with like a starring written and directed had no towel put like the little X. Sundance logo on it to make it look like it was awesome. I thought it worked very effectively. Because everything looks the same. So how do you? How do you differentiate differentiate yourself in the ocean of content? You know well I mean it's not it's not the end of it I mean I I I don't know about I'll tell but I I still WanNa do a few more of them so I mean even even even if it's just on even if it's just reciting are you know I might take some posters and like Chris T. shirts or maybe I'll just press posters and you know give them out of chills or something Nice. Well I mean so movie tickets at this point. Because that's you've got you've got folks going So this this new release I've I've heard the single with Chester Watson. I've heard the the joint with Odyssey Does this particular album did it? Start with A concept you had in mind a theme you put out a lot of projects like what? How did this come into being this record? Kind of you know took on a bunch of different shapes over the formation of it. I mean you know this was really supposed to be just another instrumental albums. All Up to My first my first record with melon music which was A blessing blessing in the skies. And you know I got like I got like two maybe three songs into it and Kinda just stopped and at first I thought it was. Maybe I was just having a bit of a creative walk but really Kinda was just at least to me. It felt like I was treading water and I was doing the exact same thing. Done last record on the six records before it's you know. And they say the The definition of insanity is doing same twice expecting San absolves. So you know every record I do normally has one maybe to grab teachers on it and you know and I just thought you know why the fuck not you know themselves so I decided that that points? Okay well I already have these three or four homes in mind that I guess masses haven't really heard of or heard much from so if I can just figure out a way to you know they've got a few a few guys I've never worked with before and a couple of heavy hitters. You know I might. I might have my my high-technology on my hands. You know that's an interest for sure you know I just go ahead. I'm sorry Oh I was just gonNA say Yeah so just kind of at that point kind of opened up like my notes APP. I'm falling interest. Just made a list of you know like I have twenty five different artists that I that I wanted to to work with and it's Sort of narrow it down and you know some folks are reached out to who maybe just weren't interested some folks just couldn't do it and the timeframe some dudes are expensive but eventually you know settled on on on what we settled with and I'm really happy with it. Great man great. I have a two pronged question. I just want to give people a little bit of insight into your production I just When you walk into the studio you've when you flip the Light on What's the first thing you do? That's question one and two. What is the what would you say is the workhorse of Your Production Studio Honestly since the very very first beat that I've made My you know I guess my sis. My setup hasn't really changed all too much I programme ever used fruity loops back. When it was like version two that would have been like share like twenty years ago. How I'm not using that same version. But but ultimately that's kind of the That's kind of meeting `tatoes myself. I mean I've got I've got an SP for four with trade definitely used for like a sex and and other things like that. I've got a myriad of different like midi items and so forth and have you ever been incorporating my head into into my setups but To answer your first question You know when I turn on pretty loops Ninety eight hundred times I than I do is just Start Looking for drums okay. it's just GONNA producers. It's a little bit of a A discussion point so to speak but for me I started off with the drums. And kinda ever smells roles after that. Okay where to that point? I think On the singles that. I've heard on the new record And I could be wrong for giving me a are you doing more swinger type things. I felt I kind of felt like the again. I've only heard the two joints but it seemed like you the percussion wise. You're playing a little bit more with with swing timing. Yeah I mean. That's that's always kind of been staple of a much of my sound You know like my Homie Dds's always say back in the day you know like is spend was always about you know playing playing drums live and and not relying on. Kwan's ation and and you know and the program sort of you know. Stick your drums so to speak so you know every joints I always I always played. I was play them. Manually and And Yeah I mean I. I grew up on. I grew up on Dila. Grew up on. Pete Rock Yeah You know all like cute. You know That whole soul clarion movements and like late nineties early. Two thousands. I mean not was thousands like my favorites my favorite stuff production lines so so a little bit bad always incorporated certainly in in the drums. So they always. They're always got swing a little bit. I mean it's not the only bag that but That definitely plays a big role. Can you tell us a little bit about Toronto and like is. Is there a big beat scene there? Is there like an underground hip hop movement? Like do you feel a part of that or you. Like kind of just like hunker down in the studio guy like what's your relationship to your city and Like is is there? Is there something bubbling we should know about? Well I mean to be honest on. I'm I'm an outsider So I'm actually from I grew up in city called wealth. Okay which is like about an hour or so away You know and it's a it's a smaller mostly like a university town so So star is as far as hip hop. I mean there really just wasn't very much of that and then to at any given time. There's only really a handful of artists who are trying wrap in and or pretty saying or at least doing so like seriously. You know most kids. Kinda like get into it. 'cause it's fun to do in high school then you know. Forget about at once once whatever happens So growing up I mean it. I didn't have like a ton of difference You know there weren't very many people who like many or show. Show me the ropes or anything. So I you know kind of had to learn a lot of a lot of crafts and so forth just by myself and so and then there's there's a couple of a couple of years around the way who kinda like children either obese I frutti loops and song structure and that but but five March I was kind of on my own. So most of that and Once I got to a point where you know I felt like I. I'm a nice with it and I started just making trips to Toronto Usually usually Dolo There weren't really a ton of events but around early twenty tens You know like beat battles shortage catch on a little bit So I went to view those I entered a few of them. I lost many battles odd. But that's kind of where I got a chance to. Just meet some of the some of the rest of the community First Tronto itself. I mean there's a shortage of talent. I mean there's a lot of incredible producers that you know I find out about like every day I'm scratching my head like you know I've been I've been doing this shit for like ten plus years and city like how am I just finding out about you now right. Yeah so so maybe maybe part of that's on me just not really having my ear to the ground like I used to but Yeah the town's incredible here I feel like maybe maybe I'm spoiled And that you know like I've been to go out to Los Angeles every so often and as far as instrumental beat makers like me Was kind of Mecca for it's So it's Kinda hard to go there and then come back and sort of you know. Look at everyone same. I'm not out there but just you know it's different. It's like California we'd that's an east coast. That's nice all right. We've addressed elephant in the room now but But I mean but overtime Kinda just. I'm pretty reclusive For the most part very badly best kind of just stayed myself spiders You know whenever something happens city then You know I'm I'm always there. I appreciate you getting into it with while you were answering. I was like we're from San Jose California which is kind of a lesser known city. And I feel like someone you answered like how I would answer if someone was telling me about San Francisco which is an hour away and like you know much better now she she home use in San Jose. Oh really I've never. I've never personally been there. I think I should have been through it once a few years ago but I saw God willing sometime. The Sierra pull up please do needle to the groove records on gang. Yeah we recovered the show back. And there's a lot of records in the front so if you ever want to meet up. I'll hold you back. Don't complain I'd we're in such a bubble here. We never know if anyone knows anything beyond the Dionne Warwick songs. Well I mean I know this podcast. I know you are going to ask me questions. But not now. I'm curious what's What's the whole team? Mike and Santo. Men. That's great you know then looks directly at me. Run and have our resident rapper. Answer that question you know? I think I think the the the bay area. Here's how I answered that question. I think the bay area metropolitan is is struggling to have a scene because fucking expensive to live here so there was a tightening when San Jose was the little brother to San Francisco and Oakland. But now artists can't even afford to live there. So gigs I get everybody's like trying to get a Gig so it's pretty fragmented right now very credible. Dj TALENT COME THROUGH. Come up here and Like some like award winning kind of like battle. Dj's who now lake. You could go here. Good Music Real Music at a club pretty much. You know any Thursday through Sunday so there is there is there are things to do in their Toronto. Let's just keep whoa? Whoa that's so it's all I wanNA make sure we have a little bit of space to to talk about The Term Lo fi. And I I don't know how you feel about that or but I know this is not the first time you've been asked that question do you. Do you consider your music within that category. I know you kinda predate it in terms of your releases but do you embrace that. Does that irritate you? Like how do you feel about that on a sleaze? I've Yeah I mean best. I've got I've got some mixed feelings as far as how I categorize myself. I mean I I just I keep a hip hop and you know about. That's fine enough for me I mean certainly Earlier in my career My hours definitely in love with that low fi label but that was kind of before it kind of like you know before the youtube streams and for the spotify playlist and so forth right So for me Like personally I you know like I like I love the fact that you know. A slow fires from now is certainly spawned. Its own its own community and you know you got a bunch of kids Who you know core in love with Fours and and love to sample and her and essentially doing boom bath. I mean how how can I? How can I shade on it? I got the UH. The Lo Fi label is that it's almost presented in a way that that makes it seem like it's like it's brand new phenomenon. One I feel like five at its core is really just the same ship. That's you know that we'd be doing some some ninety dollars for you know chopping sample dusty drums You know so like at its core it at least to me at its core. It's really no different than you know. At least when I used to refer to as distributor back so it's So I guess as far as the label itself You know it it. It is what it is I I guess because it's sort of treated like this new genre. Sometimes it feels like you know some of the. Oh Jeez and and some of the guys paves the way or are almost forgotten in a way So you know I I never liked to see you know some you know some of the guys who who inspired me Kinda be Kinda forgotten about And you know it. It's always kind of frustrating to you. Know to see Basically the same southbound but only one of them gets recognition over the other. I mean I guess there's not really a way to talk about it about cutting crosses an old head or I haven't called for this is a safe and I got aware that you know Celsius. Opiates Soviet turn back so so yeah it just feels like it just feels like you know it's It it the title sometimes just strips away the credit from. What's you know many of many of the? Oh Jeez forefathers. So I've done in. Kids paves the way. And you know it would be cool to see you know guys like like. Oh or guys like Am I am or neurology recipes? It'd be up to see those guys all those all on those youtube streams and and and all those spotify playlists that that do a zillion planes per day. But but you know it's I I always just want to make it clear that my search fuming about Lo fi Have nothing to do really with the artists themselves. Right guys doing it now. You know keep keep doing it. It's not there. Can I build off of that a little and ask you how you feel about your music being taken as background music or if you feel that people are especially once play listed perhaps on some of these bigger Lo fi play lists and like was a kind of putting more? Mc's on the new project away to like. Make sure that it's foreground music. Does that make sense now? I actually you I mean that's not why I decided to to have guests I mean now that you've sort of mentioned that to Kinda. Oh actually actually. Yeah that would be but But I mean it's instrumental music in general It's it's always been treated as kind of background music. I mean I sometimes I talk sometimes scratch my head at you know at some of my royalty statements not really song this this much right and then you know then you find out later that oh so they're basically just using this instrumental. It's like you know talk about the weather or other ships rather than than just listen to it itself. Honestly I mean music in general. You know like there's more than one application. I mean I've got like when I'm when I'm driving to to Toronto or just driving around you know like I'll I'll blast that new suck daddy out or some But in other moments from cleaning kroger and you know on my own ships and then fall asleep to it or something So honestly it that aspect of it never really bothered me. I mean there's people you know feel instrumental. Music is is better suited as like background music. I mean I personally disagree. But if that's how they that's how they see it's so be it but it also means that they're listening to it so it was a listening so listening to my beat you know help someone study and they get an a plus on interns. I've done my job. That's perfect that's also royalties still the same. Yeah there's no there's no or not I mean you can sorta just picture the excitement in my eyes. Like opening opening that letter saying talks. We got twelve cents on but you know the ones lately to know nicer but I you know I'm definitely not about the five sent Carl you throw it in that up right all adds up or untold. Well right on that we. We appreciate you coming on. The program forever is a pretty long. Time is out now. Correct out now. Yeah so that's Als Digital for the moment we aussitot. I love it when everything on a on. A limited twelve inch final It's Delta took the yellow marble limited edition on five hundred of those so y'all can get those Trump mellow websites. Or wherever you get your final We've got CS to it's available on all streaming services Apple Music spotify title Amazon wherever you get your stuff from and Yeah I pretty Long Thanh out everywhere. She turned Blue Odyssey guilty Simpson Brain Orchestra Alley got a whole whole gang dope guy so Watson Alberto Abilene Kevin on. Thanks for doing the G. He he's home man. I've I've been wanting to work with them trying minutes and Like that I told you about that I wrote up. I mean he might have been the second person I put on tonight. So yeah but a lot of great gusts a couple couple instrumentals. Those who know only like only like me for for Mideast prevent. Yeah despoil You know you you mentioned that you started off making this as sort of an instrumental album like you typically do it kind of morphed into something else so. I wanted to know You know and your your career has had had a bit of evolution to it. I mean the sound is sort of maintain the same. But what's the where do you see yourself going next? What's the next move after this album? What are you sort of working towards Honestly just Kinda gone along with the same thing you know like you know. Doing instrumental albums is always fun. Because I can just be knee and I don't have to sort of cater to other artists or or sort of change myself to you know to accommodate for others so to speak so you know battle always be an aspect that can occur but honestly I just want to keep keep doing morison's outside of my comfort zone so some points I definitely want to do a follow up so the forever is longtime album I've total idea of Maybe doing like an iron be album. Which is all sinners okay? It's not something you know not done a ton of over my career I WANNA and honestly as Cliche as it is. I kinda WanNa you know. Just start working with your smartest and getting more placements in It's Kinda something that originally I was trying to do at the beginning of my career. And start really annoyed of you know rappers. Yeah it was like you'll eloquent and you you you really dope but you think you can make new beat that sounds exactly what one Neptune's join crime. I mean like I can. I can send you froze. You know Bu- But yeah but I mean now that I've got at least a little more notoriety on some. You know so and I and I've got my personal bucket list of artists that I'll but I still wanna work was so so you know I kind of want to get in. Get my bag. And start start linking up with some more dudes stop He's already in in In progress that I just can't really speak on now but you know social more and do time Awesome Matt. Well Hey we want to thank you for coming on the Program. Everybody GO CHECK OUT. Forever is a pretty long time. Yeah thanks for coming on thank you. I appreciate that and Holding all too that shit so I expect it to be greeted at airports eloquent record shop and all the sounds good appreciate it appreciate it. Take care of peace. Thank you cheers. Dad Bhadra pod. We always have the finest guests but this is not a guest. This is our co host who you guys haven't heard from a couple of weeks due to the oddness of trying to record podcasts. Under shelter in place conditions. I have on the phone. Mc Dem one AKA. Pk professionally known as Carter. What'S UP DUDE? Yo I am out here. Live from house arrest Generally thing how are you I'll keep it one hundred with our listeners. 'cause they they expect that from us on a dead rat plot I work in social services basically for Food Bank so I am an essential employees And doing you know doing meaningful but definitely challenging work In these times and seeing hundreds of people a day and trying not to get Rona of buyers so yes You can't do it a little bit challenging. Yeah I'M GONNA keep trying but Yeah it's it's it's definitely been wild I wanNA And we'll talk about happier things but I want to do a quick Klug from organization because I think we're doing great work Here in the Silicon Valley to care about poverty inequality making sure that Low income folks still have food through this whole bit Checkout Sacred Heart's es dot Org You can donate and you can donate and you can donate communion. We have incredible Need right now especially with kids being home from school and parents getting laid off and and the whole bit So yeah so. That's that's quite But on the other hand once I get off from work there's like the bat the vast wilderness of nothing. How are you filling the warriors are you reading? Are You Smoking? Or you're watching or you working out like what's been your mode to attack this weird nothing time weird nothing time-to-time of of no time I've been trying to really stay kind of discipline so I Had Been Doing mile walks in San just kind of putting on headphones and listening to joints and then walk a good mileage so I'm trying to get back into to this. Haruki Murakami twelve hundred page novel. Away four yeah. That's like the new on infinite jest. It's like everyone has it on their shelves but they actually haven't even read it myself. Nobody's got three hundred. I'm like three hundred pages in normal book linked in right and I'm like Oh and we're just getting started. Has there been anything a or a goat man or a weird little yet. That's comedy book. I Love America. Wind up bird chronicle changed my life but yet do it gets a little seems the. Yeah it's it's it's weird. I'm almost ashamed of myself because this book has like Sex and violence and mysticism and all the shit that makes a good book a good book. And I'm like I need to finish the so I actually have this like quarantine guilt right. That's forming leading doing been corey richards as exactly like I need to come out of this shit like speaking Spanish French cooking you know Helen Literate And I'm not doing too much of any of that right now. Six pack on a finished screenplay least I mean can we can we get our source screenplay all my I have some revenge will We will talk about off off. Air Short short answer. Yes okay exactly. Yeah that's that's the spirit Thinking about maybe because I have enormous amounts of time watching better call Saul right like I need a a glacial pace You know TV series tonight inches ODA CIDER on HBO. I do recommend it. Because the episodes are structured in such a way that you have to watch the next one. And that's that's like binge ability right. We were really looking to engine. Take down a couple of EPSETA time into really like get into in like wow lab not fully on board with it. It's Stephen King so it's obviously like God horror elements and it's got every like I'm doing air quotes that guy actor especially from other shows. You're like oh it's that guy the detective from the night of and it's like Oh it's that guy from the nick and it's like Oh it's that guy from bloodline in. It's like yeah. It's just a passing so it's Kinda like You may not get this reference. 'cause 'cause you don't have children but The Disney channel like Kinda just remixes These horrible child actors and all their shows right. Yeah I'm director version of that. Yes your dad from this thing. You're like it's that Guy University. Yeah we're we're we're hurting right now. Are you listening to rappers at all I am? I'm pretty much. Stay in weirdly. Nothing came out last week except for St Nak came out with a new record So that will become relevant in the dead body universe very soon but There was like normal release schedule for like the win. This was seeming like it was a big deal but we weren't sheltering in place yet and then last week when we really needed new releases like nothing came out or at least nothing in our kind of wheelhouse but yeah super into the rap Pereira. I'm still listening to Bobi and ALC- I'm like I'm doing research on people that we've been talking to so I was listening to a bunch of count basie before we did that. Listened to the new controller seven misdeeds though which we obviously have a segment on this show so kind of kind of a little bit of both and also. I talked about this with Dave last week and I would love to hear how you feel about this like when I'm having like an emotional life crisis. I don't like turn to wrap for the answers. You know what I mean for the. Yeah Yeah it's like I definitely know what you mean You know what I turn to. I'm going to just keep her. You know again keeping real far listeners. I sat down and watched fucking La la land. Wow and was like my generally get welcome. I'm GonNa far away from this reality as surely possibly that sound all moving homeless people meals. You're just like city kind of in the zone singing for no reason. Yeah no I I I feel. Kinda like rap I'm interested to see what rap is gonNA come out of this time because he's so much of it able saying sicker than Corona Virus Man. That's going to be tough. I hope we can get some better bars. Because everybody's GonNa be trapped in their bedroom rates go viral. No Row House. It has some kinds can have a limited emotional range. Yes except for record. I know we're both really into which completely breaks this paradigm in has really been like Mike. Excuse the you know Karen Term Feeding. My soul is purple pages by Rab Ferrara. It's been dope and so full of different things to listen to catch onto. Oh Man I mean we're we'VE BEEN BIG ON FOR AKA my low Four minute no surprise. All praise due to the honorable date Leblanc. Put me on to my low WanNa say the two year. Yeah two years ago kind of in that first season. Yes Hit me in my low in and I've liked releases Along this last you know two three or run but It really for me really all comes together on purple who might pages in part because of a Kennedy single and the Jefferson part boys contributions. I I I feel like the this is the light musical contexts or rap Ferrara's voice and his kind of Just everything about him. It's it's a nice container for what he does that. Sure and it has that Lamar Park like Like five o'clock follies Kinda like. Obviously there are direct. Mosh is to Can you find the level of difficulty in this but there are even more like aesthetic nods to that like Horace Tapscott Lamar Park like center of black? La Culture Jazz meeting hip hop convoluted kind of like the way that those things come together. And that's obviously sound. That's near and dear to us as huge fellowship fans and people who like the outlive that far from the sphere of influence of La Underground hip. Hop I'm so I'm loving that direction. And just the day prediction. Winds around the the words references. In a way. That feels very organic like that. I I I agree that this is a very desirable place for him. To have ended up in terms of the music that he's interacting with and frankly I think it's just he's just got better he's in control of you know what I mean. Yeah he's he's he's more of himself If that makes sense And it kind of really gives me these really like I. I WanNa say something and not have it sound like last night so I'm just GonNa say it anyway It feels like an evolutionary. Acl own record. Like this gives me that feeling like the kind of poetry vied. Ac was always playing with Mixed with the You know the dense lyrical stuff like it just comes together in this way where it feels like He really took. Ross Perot really took the torch from what the fellowship was doing what they see alone By his solo records was was doing in kind of stepped into a new era which is great because he's obviously younger than all of those cats. But it's great to see that sound like his big army is Mike Eagle who was younger than fellowship by ten years. You know what I mean. It's like right now. We're kind of like two generations removed. It depends on when you call it that but there's a great eagle verse and I was just listening to it before meat. Set up this phone call and I were talking now and I'm going to botch the delivery. But he basically says like he should've picked a career with a more stable income rather than wrapping. And I was just like this like hurts. My feelings hearing this right now because I know he had to come off road with brother Ali and like there. There's no such deaths tour ring and like actually did sue. I bought Mike's entire discography on band camp on Camp Day last week it was really hard shoes where to place those dollars. But I tried to do it strategically and fuck with people who fucked with US and I felt good about that now. I have a bunch of music kind of Wade through where hadn't specifically followed every single. Release that he had on there. But Fuck Man Bloodbath. It's it's heavy because my They had to cancel Purple Moon. Pages tour that among every single other one but yeah totally. Yeah every every tour on the planet had to be canceled. We're GONNA hang out. We were so close to hanging out with Tony. This is now one of my life's goals and we was all set up and now it's like. Oh let's see when that when he was coming to Oakley like April thirteenth or something like that in the Milo show was just like right after that it was like two things I really wanted to see but anyway non shelter in place that that was huge. Actually I will probably be revising micromanaging status a little bit like I've been talking to so many people about how I'm a natural shelter in place person but I was also an enjoyer of the outdoors and a person who loved to eat in restaurants and like I missing some of those those components of my life in a hopefully. We're all not gonNA take it for granted if there's any restaurants last year which is a whole dark path. I don't WanNa get on but had to say it. Yeah it's it's it's a weird time and somehow with purple moonlight cages. You get you get This lightness that That is kind of a juxtaposed to our time But then there's also like some interesting dark kind of introspective moments rare Gosh I'm and I think it's called dust up what he's like you route like your footwork's fucked up that's nursing. Yeah Yeah Oh man. Yeah so everybody gone a shutouts around Ferrara. We're talking And maybe I don't know maybe it'll be spice it in but the kind of of standoff fond of that album is leaving hell yeah Which is just an amazing Kind of the jazzy tune Also he does an amazing cover of Faira funders creators. Got A master plan. Wish he does actually what he would he. It's Pharaoh Sanders attuned. Clearly but what? He's really referencing in my opinion. Is Leon Thomas version of it when he does that little like I? I can't do the vocalisations. Only like masters can do that. Thing that Leon Thomas does but he does a little call out to it and when I first heard that when the record dropped on that Friday like immediately had to get out my phone Tweeden and be like Oh my God. Thank you like the Thomas version of that song is one of my favorite song on. Promo forty-five in like bigly on Thomas Fans. I was just so excited to hear that. Like in many ways. I feel like this record was made for me and that was one of the moments where I was like. Holy FUCK NO WAY DUDE. Like this is so cool. Like I can't believe you did chew naval way to end the record and has a master plan Can we move up the timeline? A little bit and get out of the doldrums and leave all reading. This is just part of it as I watched. Ducks Walk Across the expressway. I live near. I was like yeah. We're dead and that's it. That's the animals have reclaimed. But at least we got enough strategic From route for I if if we have the rest of the year this is my This will be hard to unseat feet. This is my for album of the year totally especially for all developing these deep lake emotional bonds to it during quarantine. I was just talking today for record of the I believe I still. I need to look it up and I probably should have before. We started recording. What we think to be an evergreen podcast that will last for the rest of digital time. The New Conway alchemist record. Lulu is set to drop either Friday or Monday. Okay Oh yeah. That's another thing to look forward to. He's just alchemists has been killing it. So Hard Conway. Obviously one of the best most lethal rymere's in the world right now. So I'm I'm excited about that. Yeah Speaking of which we Thing of Alchemists I think another song That he produced which. I think really does encapsulate which I'll always attached to. This time of the shelter in place is a never ending story off the J. Electron of only. You and I didn't really get a chance to talk about the J. Elect like what are your thoughts This is gonNA sound very peak damone but I like four or five songs and that's enough for me. Yeah I hear you that makes me solid record Of course not worse. The you know record is worth a ten year. Wait right like you can't put that kind of expectation on it right But I felt like it was. It was good record. You got to see What I like to you got to see or hear Jay. Electric is head trip About why he hasn't put out the material like I like that he got into that and kind of got. You hit space of a why it took so long and then to take ten years and then only really about half the record and how Jay z wrapped the other half flex. Yeah Yeah that's pretty pretty amazing And you know Jay z. Still has it. I mean we. I think we just have to say that. Each still haven't totally. Yeah Yeah actually I I if if you know gun to my head or like Coronas virus coffer to my face I would. I would have to say Jay Z. Probably does RAP BETTER THAN JAIL. Tronto on the record. If you're and and I just you you're not wrong on that one. I just I find it interesting. But the idea that she The Jay Z. Like completely out shine dude. I'm like say anything. I feel like J. Electron 'cause Kinda whole Vibe JD kind of like stepping into well what people are as that. Jay Z has been hanging out with or listening heavy to mock Hami. And that was what's like coming through. The most is that cadence and that that kind of palate which is super interesting And I I don't I don't know if other smarter people on twitter had not said that if I would have heard that necessarily obviously I've seen the pictures of them together but Yeah I think I think the the the coming thing is really interesting. I definitely feel like it's a case where as we've seen jd taking pictures with people There are fan bases that want to be seen in that way right so this whole idea that. Oh you know. He's just doing comedy thing and I'm like yes but at the same time jail that can kind of talking this you know kind of Muslim. Infused five percents or You know what I think. J does really well and hope pick up on was like. Hey if you start saying words from the Koran you've got a whole new rhyming college right you've got you know what I mean. I'm a lot Ryan Taylor. Different thing on the palate. Yeah that makes sense for sure. Yeah so I'm not sure but I don't think there's any conscientious. Rapper doing it right now. That's not influenced by comedy or lock. Marciano I thought it was interesting though. Jay ELECTRONICA act like he doesn't know who marched young. Yeah that's not possible right. No I was like come on Bro. Stop Yeah it was like last week thing and every week is like a fucking decade right now but he was speaking with everybody who said anything even remotely negative about the album on twitter which I thought was really weird to like. Do Nothing for ten years record for forty forty nights and then just like get into weird like quibbles with people. It's like just is there? I don't know I'm not gonNa tell them how to live his life or how to roll out his album clearly. He made a big impact on the culture but like with art. Speak for itself for a week I think he's hyper sensitive about how he's received and I think that's the whole reason why he took so long to drop this. He talks about that a little bit on the record. I think he wants to be She wants to have exhibit A. Energy and and mystique on everything It's not yeah. That's that's not any way to have a career like who has all bangers you really you. Yeah and it. Kinda makes me feel like okay. It took a decade. He HAD TO GET JAY Z. Involved and at best he turned out something. That approach is one of the ROC Marciano 's releases from last year of which rock did four bright. That's really putting it because I was listening to it a lot when I dropped and I wanted to like dislike for it and get into it. Actually listen to the listening party. I've never listened to a listening party for a rap record before. It's actually a super shitty way to hear records like you can't really hear it. You know all I wanNa do is hear the lyrics and you can't hear it. People are writing and like it's bizarre but it was cool when I was kind of going back and forth with somebody on twitter there live now and I'm like Oh fuck really. I'm just doing like cooking dinner all put on the listening party like let's do it and now that I've had time to sit with it. I'm wondering how many more times I'll listen to it. Where like every rock album has significant replay value and? He's so much more productive so you're just making me think of it in a different way it's like. Was it all hype or is this like a great record? You know what I mean. And you're saying it's a good. It's a good record and I think Jay Electric is a chance to retain his mystique Kinda just I walk away from that record going Bro. If you had just been doing records this whole time you could have been. I don't know it could have been more amazing. I don't know I mean that's all rejection. It just made me think about it. He's got a great voice. He's got a a very interesting. You know you kind of forget. Sometimes he's from warming the Ark and definitely not hit it on this one ballot of soldier. Slim those callouts to be g like that's evident but he. It's like if he didn't tell you you wouldn't know it's just a weird vagabond interesting dude and I guess I come away. My takeaway is valid interesting record. I just wish we COULDA got more this. I don't know why we had to wait a decade for sure. Yeah Yeah it's an hour and it's not that he cares but if you put it on twitter he might be with you in that. Actually be really good for us so can you? Can you get that going down innate? I knew it would come to the personal God. Ah just saying we are here to be appreciative. Not Start Weird. Quibbles quibbles and squabbles. For Real if we do if we do you ever see somebody that as one hundred percent legit. 'cause they're really. We're a peace loving podcasts. Until tested man all right this episodes getting long but it was really good to catch up with you. My friend keep doing what you're doing and we will do these check INS weekly every every other week I do. You remember rock -absolutely so they had the character uncle traveling that who who they would just call and check in on like periodically like and that's. Kinda how I feel. I feel like I'm on a weird. I'm on a weird safari and I'll just I'll be checking in for a while In just a one hundred percent disclosure I don't WanNa give my bras criminal by restraint nor do we want to win. There's yeah that's all it is when when I know I'm not gonNA give anyone crying. The virus unsure. We'LL WE'LL BE. We'll be back in the lab doing it out like we cool brother appreciate you and it was. This was a really good conversation and You definitely give me some stuff to think about just about music and as always just about life so take care of yourself and we'll we'll check in with you soon. There is an anti PD. Just Dad bought rat pod. We're back with a return guest A person who we are fans of musically who's kind of become a friend in real life There's this line between friend of the program friend in real life and I feel like we're edging towards becoming friends. It's been cool to get to know this person through the doing the pod and exchanging Em's and hearing music and he's got a new project out. I'd like to welcome to the show controller seven. Thanks for having me back absolutely So you've got a new project. It's called couch. It's with. The rapper called misdeeds though. And it's just got released and I WanNa hear all about it. And that's what we're here to talk about but something I would like to kind of touch on in the initial go here is like I feel like because I follow you especially on instagram. Where you're fairly active in especially on instagram stories. Where you're fairly active. I like watched this record get made. Was that like a conscious choice. Or was it just like you're just documenting your daily life and this is your daily life when you're in the run-up to making an album and can you just kind of talk about that aspect of it. Yeah I mean. It wasn't a super conscious. I think the record. Kinda came out of instagram. Because I had sent him a message and just asked if you wanted to do a song so that Kinda was how it started And then I did it in sort of a strange way like I asked to do the one song and then I just Kinda got fired up and I was just making a bunch of stuff trying to come up with something to send him and before I knew it I had enough stuff that I was just. I just decided. I'm just GONNA make an album okay. And then I'm just going to send the whole album done like with audio sand lake dialect samples in it it's sequenced it's Kinda right in eighty percent version of what I wanted it to be right and I'm just going to sentence so that he gets the for the whole thing as opposed to just do one song. It's got this style. We do another one and it's And then you get Kinda just a collection of songs so in a way like it was done there is like a halfway point where I already gave him. What was SORTA done for me? And then he had it and so we were both Kinda sitting on this thing that was like closer to done than maybe album normally would be and then I think after a while it just felt weird that we're sitting on it for so long and then just decided all right. Let's start like kind of getting people interested in this. So that's how it started kind of trickling out There wasn't it like I. I would put things up every now and then there wasn't like a ton that went out and it was basically like to songs and let a little bits of it so I was Kinda guarded about not trying to just like put the whole thing out there before even releasing it But we were just doing it. The two of us like it's there's no label nothing so That was kind of like the street team. Promo launch was just little bits here and there and trying to get people into it and hopefully like reposted and do things like that. Yeah so who is misdeeds though and how did you first become aware of him and Kinda what it? What drew you to him. Were made you think that you guys should do something together. So he didn't know this until we actually started talking. He is actually from San Jose. So we're both from San Jose. He lives in shelley now. He's kind of idea. Yeah he's been all over the place but he so he was Kinda affiliated with Anton but at a different time than I was he He didn't album with dose under the name. Alpha it's a seven P. H. A. Which is really good. You check that one out So I think it was like one of the last into con records So he did that then. the thing that kind of sparked it all he. He's close with the mediocre so he was part of the whole here drums. That whole scene I feel like that's where I might have come across him. His name before yeah through the Galapagos four like Chicago he is around for that kind of stuff so I knew of him from then But the thing that kind of like really sparked it off for me was a mediocre. He runs a label called Potions NYC and he so he put out My right handed Straw album. He put it out on cassette. And so I have friends and we'll talk and He did a record with misdeeds though and I sent him a message is Kinda asking about it and he said that they did it in two days and I'd been basically I've spent my entire music career over thinking things and taking way too long and just like Kinda stopping myself from getting things done But I had like kind of phase out of music after when I started a family kind of phase out. A music can So I was coming back into it with a different frame of mind and hearing that they did this record in like two days just like it seriously kinda like lit a match under me and I was like if they could do that in two days. Like what am I? Waiting for? The I sent him a dam. Like hey you WanNa do a song together. He said get Than I just started making all kinds of stuff and Then I came up with idea just doing the whole album So that's kind of how it all all lined up and funny thing is that we've never even have never spoken to each other. It's been all diem album. Dm and email and he. He's got three kids. I've got two kids Time is is in short supply so it kind of just worked that way for us out in two days but you did it much faster than you would have normally and you did not allow yourself to over. Think it you just did it. Yeah I mean I probably made the majority of the beat center on their made them to each period. That's cool And then I kinda fine-tuned everything spent a little bit more time. But like from I looked back and I think the DM was like six months ago. Well so much much faster than like the longest eating projects that you they used to working on and if it feels like you know just again as someone who Chit Chat with you a little bit and watches your social media carefully. You're you're back in a really creative mode and that this will probably not be the last thing that That emerges from this period yeah now that my plan is to not like. I'm just GONNA move past this one and forget it but is just to like move onto the next thing and just I don't yeah like just fired up trying to do as many things as I can and I am working on something else already. And now that were under this quarantine thing. It's possible that I will have another album out in a couple of weeks ago. Awesome definitely keep us posted. That would be amazing Since you brought it up how are you doing with the whole global pandemic It's all right I would say it definitely goes like up and down in these roller coaster waves of emotions. The first like first day. I think I was Kinda Kinda into it just having having some time. Off of work and I like sewed some curtains just things like like I had this time time to do this before. Yeah Yeah and then it Kinda. I think the reality of not knowing when the end date is the part that is not as exciting about it like if it was three weeks of paid vacation I'd be into it but it's so uncertain that it's kind of taking some of the fun out of it. Yeah no I definitely hear that Do you feel like it. Affected the way you approached releasing the record or is this what you would have done under normal circumstances as well. No it definitely So I sent it off to get mastered I think on Wednesday and then was working with D- Ski who who did the mastering and We were just texting each other back and forth Trying to figure it out and so he basically did it in like a day and then Mestizo and I were just Kinda. Should we just put it out tomorrow? Do we put up a pre release to just put it out right but it seems like things are kind of so uncertain right now that it seemed really pointless to pre release or even weight on it so if it was done in the files were done than just put it out and so yet under different conditions. I think we probably would've like come up with some release plan right and and tried to like do that. All Game of getting people in it totally What's the reaction? Been like has been pretty awesome so far. I mean it's Kinda I think maybe on the other side of things it's different than what people think I mean I'm not at a level where I'm being like inundated with thousands of DM's but People will post it to stories and like you may get like the flame members G. or I mean I totally appreciate every post Anyone that like says anything about. It is totally appreciated but in terms of like feedback. Where there's like comment on it? That's Kinda hard to come by these days. Everyone's everyone is moving so fast that no one takes the time to do that. I mean here in there you get some but But there's been a few things that Some people sent me messages. And just Kinda like blew me away in L- Some people who are like quote like famous Sent me like messages and like I said you know like I was one of the. Oh Jeez that got them into making music and like oh things like that just kind of man. That's a big man. It's kind of a trip because I think people like I have been doing this since like nineteen ninety nine or I guess even ninety eight so I mean that's how a long time. Yeah but you know. It's just like gaps in there were you guys can go back and listen to our previous interview with controller seven on episode. I can't remember but will post in all our social media when this comes out to hear a little bit more about that story. Yeah and even even back. Then I was thinking back to the other interview. I was completely completely different place than where this new creative spurt for sure. Now I was like I had some mix tapes and it was kind of almost like well got these might as well put them out. Yeah So had not yet hit this little run. I've got going right now So yeah it feels good. I mean It's been sitting kind of on the main page of the band camp. Yeah bestsellers for hip hop and rap That's the whole world. That's like that's amazing. Yeah I mean it's like sitting there right next to some of like my favorite records of recent So I mean even that is like if it was there for one day next to like hiding places than that's amazing to me absolutely. I totally hear that and just before we go too far off of the instagram thing And the flame Emoji comment that you made. It's like if you can get someone to do one of the emojis. That's not one of the ones that creates the little animation. It's like a step further down like the reaction line or like the care that they put into the the reach out. You know what I mean. Yeah it's like I was talking to my wife about this the other day. She's like Oh you. Should you know the posted all these stories from my walk? You should respond to them. And so I went in and tried to like pick the perfect emoji till like capture the essence of the photo. Or whatever and it's like good little worm hole the fall down but like if you put something funny you're going to get like ten of the crying laughing guy. You know what I mean. It's like it's so The responses that are acceptable and easy to do have become like standardized in a way. That's very interesting and when you look at the front of the DMZ see the ten crying laughing things. And you're like oh I must have done something funny three weeks ago or whatever you know what I mean just like a very interesting way that our communication has been kind of segmented but NFL me rambling on about inserting Yeah it's a cool record. We were treated to hear the instrumental versions While it was in creation and I kind of fell in love with those so now I'm trying to readjust my ears to To the full vocal versions. But it's definitely a dope project and Yeah I'm happy for you. Man I love to see someone who I think is a brilliant producer and like makes music that really suits my sensibility like in this creative pocket and just going for it. It's just really rewarding for us and I know I can speak for the rest of the guys as well. And so it's just cool to see you Pushing FORWARD YEAH. Thank you man. I appreciate that and I just Adding onto this little instagram conversation. And what you were just saying. Right now If I could encourage people here this send a message to people. Because it's it's on the other end I think people make a lot of assumptions. That people know like Oh that person still say like they know it. Hear that all the time right. But maybe they don't or maybe you reach out to them and then you have a little conversation with them. And that's one thing I've realized recently is like Instagram is amazing for you can send a message to basically anyone. Yeah and sometimes it never gets seen sometimes respond. But sometimes they respond and in a completely unexpected way in I've had a few like this other album. I'm working on happen the same way I could. Just send a message on there and So you never know. Shoot your shot worlds in anyway in Madison like it's A. It's a good time to reach out to people and not not toot my own horn but on that tip on the first day of Quarantine life I read this article on long reads. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It's like a long form. Journalism website and guy didn't have a twitter so I couldn't like shout him out on twitter. So I like because we were on quarantine. Mechanically looked up. His email went to his website. Open a new e mail. It seems like this is like the nineteen fifties of how to connect with someone. I actually I was like I have the time. I really enjoyed this article. I'm going to send him an email and we had a little too email exchange and I think we both felt good about ourselves for it and I told him I appreciate it and he told me he appreciated me appreciating it. And I'm just going to echo your sentiment like it's a nice time to send people little message. Everybody could use the pick me up like say you love this awesome podcast like it's like speaks to your hip hop sensibility interview. All these cool people like just like cinema. Dm You know. I think you know time back to the you said the the crying laughing Emoji like if you send tack guide equivalent like I appreciate what you did in an Emoji. It probably wouldn't have been the same thing totally so yeah in these kinda strange uncertain times It seems like a great time to to reach out to people and connect with people right on So good to catch up with you and Really really happy for you. Everybody go isn't a couch. It's controller seven it's misdeeds though it's hip hop. It's a beats lyrics samples Really really good tight project. You consider it an album right not any. Yeah I think It's like thirty right over thirty minutes long. So man I think all things must pass levels these days. I think in the DAD BUD era. That is way too short fern album. You know the time we were growing up. But nowadays that's like almost seems long on the alongside these days so in pre quarantine times I would. I had about a half an hour for anybody and now I've got like a all this time to luxuriate in my slower interests. I watched to art films yesterday. I definitely would not have watched under under different circumstances. So I'm giving things time is kind of like you know we could think about it so you guys have half an hour to go within the couch. Yeah please do. I'd on all right controller. Seven always a pleasure. Man will do this again some time in three weeks when you have your new album out but until then let's Encourage everybody to listen to couch and as always I appreciate your time. Thank you stay safe. Everybody all right thanks.

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123: The Black Dahlia

Ghost Town

1:04:19 hr | 6 months ago

123: The Black Dahlia

"Back in black I'm Jason Horton I'm Rebecca Lieb, and this is a ghost town. I. Have wanted to do this case for a very long time, but it is such a part of my own Ellie history and is so intimidating in some ways because it's so gigantic that I kind of leaned away from it but Jason just went to a bunch of locations and was kind of hinting at the idea that maybe we should do it. So here, we are today talking about the iconic La, still unsolved crime of the Black Dahlia murder. This is is the one. This is the big big one. It's La's probably oldest unsolved. Cold case and probably when you talk about true crime I mean this is probably up there. With, all with all the big ones it really is, and again, there's so much to it. It's not even just that it's an unsolved because really on paper, it's like L. A. Girls Young a young woman is murdered and we can't find the killer and it's La and it could be anybody but there's so many strange nooks and crannies to this case. There's so much Hollywood to it with like baked inside of it. You know there's like youth and beauty and ambition, but really the big thing about this case is that it is a the side. It's like the face of Los Angeles and I think that's why people are so obsessed with it. It's very stereotypical to me like you know this city takes people and choose them up and spits them out or. It rejects them. This is the case that a lot of that was foundational to. It is the darker part of the dream of entertainment of stardom of Glamour. It really manipulates that and this is what CR- I mean really creates the. Like the the bad. Reputation that Elliott has in terms of. What you will do to be famous. You know all the things like what you will put yourself out there for and so much of that has taken over the idea of the Black Dahlia murder when in actuality, the facts are much different and and the person who is Elizabeth Short is still a mystery. So all of this. presupposition can be put on this case in a way that will never really know. What was wrong and apparently people are not. Done. Talking about now socio with it and like you said, it's Hollywood itself now. Will make a movie or another book or there's another blog post and it probably will never truly be solved although there are claims that. Solve for the most part it is solved, but we won't get the closure of a formalized solution to this case source are solving of her murder was the the the. The photos considering it's one, thousand, nine, hundred, forty, seven. The amount of photos is pretty astounding which I've noticed when I was doing the filming locations and when you run across the crime scene photos, it's extremely jarring. No matter how many times you've seen it it's extremely gruesome. Yeah, and I it's it's tough especially when I until the Mayor Park and was looking for photos com. Comparing the what it looks like now to then and yeah, you get a lot of crime scene photos. They are very available on the Internet. So if you're looking for this case like I maybe three or four clicks, you can find these very graphic photos. So I'm warning you of that and it also really hard too because they will those we will juxtapose her and her mugshot. Also like a really big part of the photographic evidence and historical elements of the case. But let's start from the beginning because even before her murder it's there's so much happening. So she was born Elizabeth Short on July Twenty Ninth Nineteen Twenty Four in Boston Massachusetts. The third of five daughters of CLEO and Phoebe may short cleo short made a living designing and building miniature golf courses around nineteen. Twenty seven the short family relocated to Portland and then went back to Massachusetts to Boston suburb everybody year later, of course, the Great Depression hit in nineteen, twenty, nine and Cleo. Abandoned his wife and his five daughters. He then proceeded to fake his suicide leaving his empty car near a bridge leading authorities to believe he jumped into the river below. This will also happen again, this is CLEO's move. phoebe was left to deal with the depression five young girls on her own. She worked multiple jobs. But most of their money came from public assistance one day Phoebe received a letter from clear who moved to California he apologized and told me that he wanted to come home to her however she was like do not ever talk to me again I never wanNA. See you in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, CLEO's car was found abandoned on the Charlestown bridge and it was assumed he committed suicide by jumping into the river. Again as a teenager Elizabeth always had bad bronchitis and severe asthma attacks. She underwent lung surgery at eight fifteen after which doctor suggested she relocate to a milder climate during the winter months to prevent further problems. Shorts Mothers Center to spend winters Miami Florida with some family friends during the next three years short lived in Florida during the winter months and spent the rest of the year in Medford with her mother and sisters. Now, she would go back and forth from Florida to Massachusetts to California it kind of all. To start the she, she laid the foundation of being kind of this wandering character feeling at home pretty much anywhere. Maybe a little bit too at home as some authors talk about, but she would do these things and again it kind of. All of the people that talk about her say that she was kind of quiet that she would spend a lot of time on her makeup in herself and would try her best to assimilate to wherever she was. So here's some testimonials from her Medford classmates. She was always friendly never at a loss for words and it wasn't just that she was. So pretty there are a lot of pretty girls. There was something different. She was someone you like to watch the kind of girls boys might sneak looks at, but we get tongue tied if she spoke to you and the walk of hers, it wasn't put on. She always walked that way even in junior high i. Always thought that if she had a glass of water in her head, she wouldn't spill a drop that was Bob Passos a neighbor and classmate of hers Daddy Elizabeth's Sister Betty I we're going to be movie stars. We were all entranced with movie stars starstruck spent hours talking about movie stars about going to Hollywood. We performed using the shorts front porch a stage. Every Friday assumes the song sheets came out. We Pool our money, get the latest sheets and spend hours singing betty imitated deanna. Durbin, walked like her talk like her and had is and sang liquor. That's eleanor Kurt's a friend of the family's, and then finally this is Emma Pass IOS another presumably related to Bob. Her hair was very dark black. She liked to be admired. no-one had bad thoughts about her I just liked her once he saw betty shore. You couldn't forget her Eliza the short dropped out of high school as a sophomore which means there were a couple of years that she didn't go to school. I'm not. I can't figure out what she did. In that time presumably, she was in pretty bad health and just kind of floating around at her mom's plays at our friends in Florida. But in late nineteen, forty, two shorts mother received a letter of apology from her twice presumed dead husband which revealed that he was in fact alive and started a new life in California for real for real this time. In December at age eighteen short relocated to va hospital with her father whom she had not seen since she was six years old at the time he was working at the nearby Mare island naval shipyard on San Francisco Bay but things quickly became strained her father would scold her for her laziness her poor housekeeping her dating habits, which would also be a theme in a much discussed area of her her life. He eventually kicked her out in mid nineteen, forty three and she was forced to fend for herself. She took a job a cashier at the. Base Exchange at Camp Cooke now Vandenberg Air Force Base near Lompoc living with several friends and briefly dating an army sergeant who she moved in with who reportedly abused her the servicemen quickly noticed her and she won the title of Camp Cutie of Camp Cooke in a beauty contest. She was emotionally vulnerable and at the time people say that she really wanted to get married again, she was nineteen years old pretty normal kind of average sentiment for a person that age at the time and her track record of instability, all the authors that I really looked into. said that she wanted a normal life you know a home person, a partner that she could trust and she was desperate to have that. But she was not a very good kind of reader of people should a lot of really strained relationships really started ramping up about this time word spread that Elizabeth was not an easy girl on the base which. Kept, her at home instead of on dates most nights in nineteen forty-three she became uncomfortable at Camp Cooke and left to stay with another friend who lived near Santa Barbara She was arrested on September twenty third, Nineteen Forty Three for underage drinking at a local bar. This is the iconic Mugshot of hers which there's two photos next to each other she looks. Kind of buzzed on she looks like a teenager who is buzzed. And this is something that juxtaposed her the photos from her the crime scene, her the site where her body was found all the time, which is very, very disturbing because in the photo she looks. Like a kid like a kid who's out partying you know and she you know she's very made up. She's got. She's got these like really dark curls really light skinned. She looks like she got in trouble like many teenagers do the juvenile authorities sent her back to Medford, but she instead went to Florida then came back to California this time to where she really wanted to be in Hollywood in Los Angeles Elizabeth Meta Pilot Name Lieutenant Gordon Fickling, and fell in love. He was really clean cut. She was stable kind of the guy that she was searching for and she was very eager to marry him but her plans were halted when fickling was shipped out to. Europe. So she was again alone she took some modeling jobs in La but not really anything came of it. She went back East again to spend holidays in Medford before again, going to Miami, she began dating servicemen marriage still a huge part of what she wanted and what she hoped she would get and fell in love with. Military man a pilot this time his name was Major Matt Gordon he she really has a type two. If you look at the people that she dated or she's photograph with really pretty like handsome clean cut very military skewing guys it may just be just the places that she hung out which is basis for the most part but he looks a lot like, Gordon, fickling honestly he proposed marriage and she said, yes, they were going to get married when he got back from India however, he was killed in action on August tenth nineteen, forty, five less than a week before the surrender of Japan. That ended that would end the war. Elizabeth had a period of mourning where she told others that actually he had been her husband and that they had a baby that died in childbirth. But eventually, she began to recover and attempted to return to her old life and hurled streams of being a star in Hollywood. So she started contacting your friends back in California. One of these friends was her escorting fickling who was back in the states she began to write him and soon they were on again some say she back to Hollywood before she met up with him in Long Beach where he was working but it may have been the other way round. I couldn't actually find a definitive answer for this. But in late nineteen, forty six, she was seen working living in Hollywood known to frequent the frolic room board Nur's old Hollywood haunt. These are places that are really historic on. Hollywood boulevard. No are writers would hang out there. A lot of Hollywood actor online dating has happened there Yeah. I had a frolic room day I also had a program date. It's yeah. It's a place that we both we both used to hang out in and performance you the Frolic Room in my book Los Angeles it'd be on. So there's a connection, but it's when you look at it. It's it's one of those. Places. Borders a little less even though to us but the frolic room is definitely definitely used in movies about lay new art based. Yeah and murders have happened at both places just so much history to them. When you talk about Hollywood having history, this case is so much part of it these places and it all kind of snowballs into this. Pretty. Dark Hollywood lore. Now again, it's not this is a part of her story where it's like Schwartz you partier was she thought she was seen out and about but kind of was she. It's hard. No you're taking a lot of this stuff from testimony from authors who already are having secondhand accounts and then when I'm getting the accounts you know. Who knows again who knows? So it's it's her case, and this is really piecing together a lot of different stories a lot of different points of view a lot of different agendas because a lot of people have agendas with this case because they want it to be something that maybe it's it's not but I'm gonNA present as we go along all the different hypotheses and you can kind of decide for yourself. So she was working as a waitress and they said that she rented a room behind the Florentine Gardens on Hollywood boulevard near that is I do. I, was there recently, there was a holding area for thing, I was working on nine Florentine Gardens totally. It is still right yeah. As it just like a space for rent kind of thing is a big parking lot behind it. So I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if the building that was back there is still back there but flirting gardens is still there Yeah. You can see so many places where she was lived was found and that's another really interesting part of this case it's still lives in these places they're not gone you can experience it. So she agreed to join fickling in Long Beach permanently at some point. But this is when things this is even more like the patchwork nature of this case, she didn't go to Long Beach instead she left Los Angeles on December Eighth Nineteen forty-six take a bus to San Diego before she left. She had been worried about some things on her mind marquette who harbored Elizabeth for a little bit said, I didn't see her but she was sitting there one night when I came home with an about five thirty sitting and crying and saying she. Had to get out of there. She was crying about being scared one thing and another no. So she was pretty distressed at this point and went to San Diego while she was there she befriended a young woman named. Dorothy Franch Dorothy was accountable at the Aztec Theater when they first met and had found. Elizabeth Sleeping one of the seats after a show in one of her bouts of homelessness between homes who knows seem to be a bit of a drifter from what I what I saw pretty much with the with the timeline and chronology. Is of where she was seemed to that kind of her jammed she was settled. You know settled wouldn't be a word that would use to describe her honestly like any point in her life for sure Elizabeth told Dorothy that she left Hollywood because finding a job as an actress was difficult with the strikes that were going on at the time Dorothy felt sorry for her and offered her a place to stay at her mother's home for a few days. These few days turned into a month and this is the part of John. Gilmore's book. Severed which has some some of the information I got from this episode came from that but it's also really sensationalized. But this one moment that really stood out for me because she would stay there she was clearly overstaying her welcome but it was a couch that she could live on but he talks about her getting up and spending hours in front of a mirror applying her makeup and her doing her hair and doing you know finding these meticulous outfits and making sure that everything was perfect and just so much makeup and so much kind of. Beautification. Or changing herself into what she perceived of what people wanted of her and even like the smell of her perfume and there's a couple of quotes in the book to talk about just the living room reeking of her perfume in her why she wasn't even in Los Angeles at the time she was in San Diego staying in France couch and it. Really shows what perhaps matter. This book is very problematic too because it is very sensationalized and the theories in this book are not right I'll say they've been disputed quite a bit and I would trust but it is such a colorful recounting of her life that it's entertaining. I'll say there are some other books that are that are much more grounded but that Of this book really stands out to me as being true from what I've read from what researched of who she was. So she obviously didn't contribute much to the family and apparently continued with late night partying dating, and again it's hard to know of this was real or if this wasn't real I, think from the research that I've done she a big thing. About. Her was belonging and being out and being immersed in Hollywood in the world and she loved people. But she never really felt like she was a part of it. She never really felt like an insider or had a group of friends. So I think that was part of it. I don't think she was a huge like partier we don't really get any. Recounts of her being belligerent or you know aside from like drinking like super drunk or having any problems there's lots and lots of testimonies of people who grew up around and knew her. Not so much in these later years that are super trustworthy I would say, but before saying that she was like fairly strait laced but think about putting a straight laced person into this context someone who's considered very attractive who wanted to be in? Hollywood. Of course, she would be going out. Of course, you'd be meeting friends she was. Twenty one. So that really sticks with the end again, her being not maybe the best judge of character baby being a little bit naive a little bit too trusting because one man she met in San Diego was the man by the name of Robert Red. Manley a twenty five year old salesman from La who had a pregnant wife back at home. He admitted in testimony that he was attracted to Elizabeth. But he said that he never ever slept with her he said the two of them site other on and off for a couple of weeks, and then she asked him for a ride. Back to Hollywood he agreed and picked her up from the French household on January eighth nineteen, forty seven he paid for her otell room for the night and went to a party with her then the two of them returned to the hotel he said he slept on the bed and she slept in a chair. Sure. Okay. Manley had an appointment in the morning of January ninth and returned to the hotel to Pick Elizabeth noon. She told him that she was returning to Massachusetts but I needed to according to her meet her married sister at the Biltmore Hotel in Hollywood, which is interesting biltmore. Is Not. In Hollywood. It's actually in downtown Los Angeles. She said her sister was visiting from Boston, which was a lie Manley gave her a ride to the hotel and and drove off immediately after he didn't see that she met her sister again, this his testimony he didn't stop and wait for anything. So he says that when he saw her last, she was making phone calls in the hotel lobby manly and hotel employees were the last people presumably to see Elizabeth Short alive though some accounts she was seen maybe by patrons at the Crown Grill Cocktail Lounge at seven fifty, four south, olive? Street, which is almost across the street from the hotel, and that's not there anymore unfortunately but I also don't think that that is true again, I don't think she would go if she was this distressed if she was Kinda had this agenda that we didn't know about I don't think she would go to a place that she didn't know anybody alone, which was not really her jam and hang out and have a drink. It doesn't seem right. She was missing for six days from the Biltmore hotel before her body was found in a vacant lot on the morning of January Fifteenth Nineteen forty. Seven. And just before we get into that, you can go to the biltmore and stand exactly where she was last seen and it is so interesting of generally tours. Yeah. Yeah it's a it's a beautiful hotel. It's such a symbol of Los Angeles there's so much history there aside from this can go to the entry way and I made it can put a picture up on our instagram and be there and it's again it's talk about being tied to a city being tied to this unsolved case it's really it's a trip I will say so she was missing her body was found on January fifteenth nineteen, forty seven on a cold overcast morning in Los? Angeles Betty Bersinger who was a local housewife left her home Norton Avenue in Lamar Park, which is if you don't, it's kind of by USC it's still pretty suburban it's not super developed. It's. Is it south central? Technically maybe it is technically I think it'll tranquilly south central I was there we were just there. Yeah. It was just there and you could see that in other places that I went at youtubecom Celeste Jason Horton or clean link in the show notes you can see all of that. Yeah, and it is it's it's very it's an ominous place because if you look at the pictures which I do not suggest, they're just vacant lots. So she left her home. She was going to a shoe repair shop with her three year old daughter around ten. Am Betty was walking along the sidewalk and she noticed something white in the grass. She didn't think much of at first and this is like a very famous quote of hers because she got a ton of press there so much in I mean she doesn't have a lot of INFO. She just found this body. But she thought that someone had thrown away pieces of a store mannequin which. is also really ear. You see the photos you know what that means. Yeah. It's not nothing when you will. I highly suggest doing that with extreme caution because I did I just happened upon them again and it was it was I i. mean I am also very skittish and easily. Jarred. Yeah and they are they're jarring and they look other-worldly. The black and white aspect of them. It's it's. I imagine a lot of harm movies especially in the sixties and seventies or you're in the fifties. Might have gotten a Inspired by these photos unfortunately. Yeah. Ooh, so she discovered these pieces of human being. Screamed grabbed her daughter ran to the nearest house to call the police. Within minutes officers arrived the first officers who discu discover the body from the police were Frank Perkins and will Fitzgerald's When they saw her they confirmed Betty Bersinger story and called for backup. The Los Angeles police. Department. Noted that the woman's body seemed to have been posed. She was on her back with arms raised over her shoulders. There were cuts and abrasions across her body. Her mouth had been sliced to extend your smile from ear to ear. It's known as the Glasgow. Smile which is a very violent practice that originated joker would be a classic modern version of that odelay totally and to see that in. A someone WHO's not the joke to see that in just a face is really horrifying. The bottom half of her body was a foot away from the top half her legs were spread. They were lacerations around her abdomen. Her intestines were tucked neatly, which is horrifying detail under her body. Investigators believed she had been tied down and tortured for several days due to wrote marks and harassed ankles neck. This is pretty disputed. She was tortured. A lot of the stuff really happened post-humously so. It's really probably not super likely, but this is again something that people are like how much how much of the torture happened before she died how much APP happened after I I tend to think that like most and hopefully I hope that most of it happened after and there's no blood no blood. Yeah after there was no absolutely no blood and this is a huge detail of the case because the artful nature, there's no blood in her body. There was no blood under her body. The detectives saw print on the ground amid tire tracks. Hardin of this is connected to the case or not, and a cement sack containing watery blood. Also kind of nearby they determined that she was killed elsewhere bled out meticulously and then put in the vacant lot at some point the night before detective Lieutenant Jesse Haskins described the condition of the body. When he first arrived at the crime scene, the body was lying with head towards the north the feet towards the south. The left leg was five inches west of the sidewalk. The body was lying face up and the several part was jogged. Over about ten inches, the upper half of the body from the lower half. There was tire track right up against the curbing, and there was what appeared to be a possible bloody. He'll mark in the tire mark on the curbing, which is now very low that was one spot of blood and there was an empty paper cement sack in the driveway, and it also had a spot of blood on it. It had been brought here from some other location the body was clean it appeared to have been washed, but again, like clinical description. Horrifying in reality while the LAPD were no stranger to homicides, the nature of this case was very cruel and talked about again all over, which is something that has helped and hurt the case over the years detective. Sergeant Henry Hansen at Detective Finis Brown were assigned to the case and when they arrived at the crime scene, it was teaming with reporters, photographers, onlookers, of course, in Classic High, profile true crime style civilians and officers were just trumping all around the crime scene destroying evidence or possible evidence left and right while the detectives investigated. The crime scene. The body was transported to Los. Angeles County morgue the LAPD. Lifted fingerprints and send them to FBI headquarters in Washington D. C hover severe winter storms at the time have delayed the identification requests for up to a week. So think about sending physically sending copies of fingerprints to Washington. DC. Then being delayed, this high profile case nobody knows who this person is and they can't figure it out because storms worden woolard, who is the assistant managing editor of the Herald Express wanted to help the LAPD and their investigation and probably. Wanted a little like firsthand news coverage for himself. The newspaper had recently purchased a new technology called the sound photo machine. He wooller believed he could use the sound photo equipment to send the women's fingerprints to the FBI, which is again, it's like an early like. Dial Up Internet type of thing when Willard spoke with the LAPD Captain Jack Donohoe but his idea it was set into motion the fingerprints were first transmitted to the FBI but they could not be read. Lapa Herald Express photographer suggested that they reversed lab process and use the prince as negatives before sending them to the again. Lap. Also blue the prince up to eight and a half to eight by ten, which made them large enough for the FBI specialist clearly read with these readable prince. The FBI finally was able to identify this body that was found that everyone is in a frenzy about as twenty two year old Elizabeth Short as far as they knew, she had last resided in Santa Barbara and had worked. As a clerk at Camp Cooke that always happening shorts body was being examined in the coroner's office by Frederick, new bar the La County coroner his autopsy report stated that Short was five feet five inches tall weighed one, hundred, fifteen pounds had light blue eyes brown hair badly decaying teeth. The body had been cut completely in half by technique taught in the nineteen thirties called it hammock corporate demy. I hope I set the rain. His report noted very little bruising along the incision line suggesting it had been performed after her death. There were marks on her ankles, wrists and neck and irregular laceration with superficial tissue loss her right breast. Bar also noted superficial lacerations on the right forum left upper arm lower side of the chest. All over face to head, there was no sperm present on the body. The killer had washed the body. So clean there really wasn't anything on the body. Newborn noted that shorts anal canal was dilated suggesting that maybe she was raped that's really the only evidence of sexual misconduct. There's some reports that say she'd like feces in her stomach and stuff like that. That is not true. Is I have researched? There was numerous cuts in a criss cross pattern over her pubic hair. Her hair had been removed. Her pubic hair had been removed by hand, which is a very gruesome detail. Again, most of the damage done seem to have been postmortem. Thank God, the official cause of death was hammered and shock due to concussion of the brain lacerations of the face. So on that note, I think we should chill out a second, take a break and get back to it after support for this podcast comes from state farm here with good news and even better news. The good news state farm has new lower car insurance rates. The even better news that means you can now get the service and convenience of a local state farm. Agent at surprisingly great rates State Farm can help you save more cash and get the good neighbor service. You deserve just talk to your local state farm agent or visit State Farm Dot com to find out how much you can save on your car insurance when you want the real deal like a good neighbor state farm is there hi hello how are you? Hi again. Despite all that, how're you doing? We're doing it. How's everybody? We hope you are well yeah I hope. So I had a gas leak in my home this week and so I hope I'm well as well wolf we'll find out we're. Going to find out what we'll see by the end of this episode of you. In the heap will full figured out want to say hello to our patrons. Our political leaders Ginette Lanc Hello Brandon Gaddis Ben. Foresight. Ashley Madison. Or Governor still governor still governor yet to be unseated. Chris Witt Hello Chris Hello we're fans of yours. We WanNa, say hello to anyone who's patronizing patrons in anyone listening. Thank you. Thank you. We have bonus episodes just put up a bonus episode I actually put up by the time. You hear this already be outbreak put up a little bonus of the video component shoe this very exciting thrown that in there, but we have you know. Probably you may have listened to this already without any ads or any of this talking and that's part of the Patriot, which is Patriot dot com slash ghost town pod I was on a podcast called. Hear me out fun talking about trying to convince one of the one of the hosts to stay in a haunted house or haunted hotel. Did you convince him I think it had a pretty good job yeah. But yeah so it's weird. It's funny having you convince someone to stay in a haunted house I. I was giving some pretty like. Selfish. One content Heller. Sure. Conversation. You know you're running out of stuff. That's right. Great Way to converse, and I just kind of explain why the haunted hotel would be a great place people go to hotels sometimes for dastardly reasons or to you don't want to bother people when you WanNa do something unfortunate. Don't want to have someone else clean up your mess. I mean, you gotta hotels I like to someone else clean up after yeah. Not me I go there to read the Bible and get a good night's sleep. Yeah, and that is it. That's it. Funny. Business I get a salad dressing. Inside please but the podcast hear me out check it out. A lot of people have been very supportive of the book which I went to Barnes and noble today I saw that it's in the store. That's. That must be so amazing to see. It was really weird because I always imagine what it would be like number one to have a book there. There's so many I didn't get the opportunity because one I was like I don't know if it's been people have trouble getting it hopefully, it's been picking up people have been getting it and. To see it. There is a really strange thing local interest local interest that makes sense makes sense to me and it's right. There was some pictures it's on Instagram, which is the Jason Horton if you WANNA, check out the video component where a visit some of the locations of the Black Dahlia youtubecom slash Jason Horton her could find it in the show notes link. Yeah. Don't you want like three sixty view of this case maybe not but if you do yeah or do you want to. Devers. And Nice to dea flattened version that you can take in at will. I'm not. You can give it a thumbs up and subscribe if you'd like me. Cool. Are Tiktok. It is going off. I. Was back at the Wonderland. God. We're GONNA have a little Sharon tate Boy already have hillside strangler. Halloween we're going to start doing these episodes ads. It's. A lot of that I have coming up next we're bugsy Siegel Yeah Yeah since house. ooh Beverly Hills where the SPINAS Patina which house there was over there in beverly. Hills. That's all on your I. Think some of my instagram probably some of the ghost town pot instagram by the tick tock goes down pod people. So a lot of in fighting a little bit a little bit of that in there but it's it's it's you know it's rocking and rolling. That's amazing in the you know when I say it's rocking and rolling. You know it's pretty standard. Standard Oh. No. That's true. I mean to your credit man like Tiktok is totally different animal and things you get on there versus here or Youtube instagram totally different different experience. It's it's well why don't we get back to the Black Dahlia the person that you're here to listen about except we've we've there's there's the other side of this, which is the Also the theories and and people kind of not agreeing on. Seventy years old now at this point. Yeah and you know we're still talking about it and we're still talking about Oh one has agreed anything no, and again I think there is a case I think there is a kind of decided and to this case or a settling on who likely did it but there are a lot of theories and there's a lot of links to other things and it just gets wilder. So we've found we've identified the body we've identified how she died, but let's talk about the name, the Black Dahlia for a second, the Black Dahlia the name is widely disputed we. Have no real idea work came from, but it's part of what makes this case so iconic, you think about the Black Dahlia like it like this is real. This is going to be sexy is GONNA be murderous. This is going to be kind of a throwback. What does this mean? So according to newspaper Short received the nickname Black Dahlia from staff and patrons at the Long Beach Drugstore in mid nineteen forty-six as a word play on the film, the Blue Dahlia which I've never seen came out in nineteen forty-six. It's a Raymond Chandler, it's actually I original screenplay with Veronica Lake and Alan Ladd it's. Hard boiled detective crime, Film. Some say the media crafted the name because of short pudding values in her hair when she'd get ready for a night out according to the F. B., I. official website she received the first part of the nickname from the press for her rumored penchant for sheer black close however, and this is probably the most likely thing was the media the newspaper reporters finding a fun sexy mysterious name for this case Herald Express reporter Bevo means great name by the way interviewed shorts acquaintances at the drug store and had been credited with using or just putting together the name, the Black Dahlia, and the Black Dahlia murder. The reporters Underwood and Jack Smith have been named the creators we don't know again if she was called the black doll yen when she was alive. Dahlia. Whatever prior to the circulation of the Black Dahlia named shorts killing had been dubbed the Werewolf murder by the Herald Express because it was so violent and brutal the Werewolf murder doesn't have the same ring is the Black Dahlia murder. So and also pretty generic for what it is. January twenty first nineteen forty seven a person claiming to be shorts killer placed a phone call to the office of James. Richardson the editor of the Examiner Congratulating Richardson on the newspaper's coverage of the case interesting things to congratulate a media outlet on their covered because. All of these media outlets especially, La ones were just like so savage in their coverage, there's some some of the newspaper headlines are just like you know this is a human being you right you. Okay. Okay. Cool. But how much has really changed since then I mean, we have things like. TMZ and other. I mean, it was just trying to make a living I get that care. But the like you said, they're human beings and. Deserve more respect than they get some time. Definitely. Definitely. This phone call stated that he planned on eventually turning himself in, but not before allowing police to pursue him further. The caller also told Richardson to expect some souvenirs of best short in the mail move. Can you imagine? Together the Herald Oh yeah. I was GONNA say what's Left I mean I feel like they've you know. When you say, you're going to send something. It's like I don't WanNa know what you have and what is what's happening, what's left to send exactly. But I, believe it. Yeah very true and her cl- I mean like closing effects really is what we're getting to here, which are also really creepy in their own right together. The Herald Express and L. E. P. worked to identify the victim but their symbiotic relationship would shift. So William Randolph hearst we could do a whole episode on him to he was the owner of the Herald Express at the time and was obviously very. Powerful. You know huge media mogul and he had these stable of reporters who discovered leads and valuable evidence in shorts case they were working around the clock on her specifically even he was willing to share this information with the LAPD. But of course, for price, he proposed that the Herald Express would continue investigating clues will be granted exclusives in the LAPD would have access to all the information the reporters uncovered. If you're a journalist you know how fucked up this is the LAPD was not really happy with these terms, but he was desperate for information and because the media was covering this case. So salaciously, and so persistently, a lot of the tips were going to do, which is not how it is. Now there's many avenues we talk about finding tips online or read it. Or whatever. But like back, then it's like stuff like there's not with specifically. But there are photos of I forget what case it is but a newspaper getting all of these packages and all of these letters of tips and things and so they had this power over the LAPD specifically that that they were able to negotiate getting exclusives on the Black Dahlia case. Wayne. Sutton. A Herald Express rewrite was assigned to locate Elizabeth Short's mother phoebe short in Medford Massachusetts to tell her that her daughter had passed away. He found her but then It he needed to get more information. So instead of just telling her her daughter had died. Because he thought that if she was really shaken up, he wouldn't get information. She. Was told that her daughter won a beauty contest in Los Angeles phoebe short loves to talk about her beautiful daughter an was accomplished and how great she was. So she was feeding Information Sutton. A journalist reporting under these shady means, and then once he received the information he. Just told her that she died, which is such a cruel cruel thing to do. But even then phoebe short didn't believe him the LAPD had to contact local Medford police and send a couple of cops to the shore residents to tell her in person before she would accept that her daughter had. We can kind of understand that when the first showing up saying Oh your daughter won a beauty contest PS. Didn't she the opposite of that I, probably would be. Also. You don't WanNa believe something like that's true. So I'm those things it's it's understandable. Yeah. It's just a really cruel duplicitous thing to do which again they the savagery around journalists to get tips on this and you're right. It feels very reflective of our current times. Unfortunately, the Herald Express was soon swamped with anonymous reports tips, some of which actually proved to be useful on January twenty four. The suspicious Manila envelope was discovered by US Postal Service worker the envelope had been addressed to the La Examiner and other less angels papers with individual words that have been cut and pasted from a newspaper clipping. Additionally large message on the face of the envelope read. Here's Dahlia's belongings letter to follow the envelope contained shorts, birth certificate, business cards, photographs, names written on pieces of paper and an address book with Mark Hansen in on the cover, the packet had been carefully cleaned with gasoline similar shorts body, which led police to suspect the packet had been sent directly by her killer despite the efforts to clean it several partial fingerprints were lifted from the. Envelope and sent to the FBI for testing. But they were compromised again in transit and could not be analyzed another technological snafu. The same day the packet was received by the examiner handbag and black suede shoes reported to concede on top of a garbage cannon alley a short distance from Norton Avenue two miles from where her body was discovered. The items were covered by the police, but they had all been wiped clean with gasoline destroying any fingerprints. On March fourteenth and apparent suicide note scrawled in Pencil on a bit of paper was found tucked into a shoe in a pile of men's clothing by the oceans edge at the foot of breeze, avenue in Venice the note read to May Concern I've waited for the police to capture me for the Black Dahlia killing but have not I am too much of a coward to turn myself in. So this. Is the best way out for me. I couldn't help myself for that or this Sari Mary the pile of clothing was first seen by beach caretaker who reported the discovery of John Dillon who was a lifeguard captain on Beach Dylan immediately notified the West La police station. The clothes included a coat and trousers of blue herringbone tweed, brandon, white t shirt white jockey shorts, Tan socks, and attend moccasins leisure shoe. Size about eight, the clothes gave no clue to the identity of the owner. Police quickly deemed and the owner of the address book found in the packet. A suspect Hanson? Was a wealthy local nightclub in theater owner and an acquaintance of short and cheap had been like mutual friends them. He that the person shoe discovered in the alley organ fact shorts and taught shorts. Friend Roommate told investigators that Short had recently rejected sexual advances from Hanson and suggested it as a potential cause for him to kill her however. He was cleared of suspicion in the case in addition to Hansen the Los, Angeles Police Department interviewed over one hundred and fifty men in the ensuing weeks whom they believed to be potential suspects Manley who had been one of the last people seen short live was also investigated but was cleared of suspicion after passing numerous polygraph examinations. Also, a little bit problematic polygraph is historically not great to hang your hat on in terms of testimony. Anyway Police also interviewed several persons found listed in Hanson's address book including Mark Lewis who had been an acquaintance of shorts. Lewis's alibi was that he was in Portland visiting his father-in-law who was dying of kidney failure and February I the Los Angeles Daily News reported. The case had run into a stonewall with no new leads to pursue the examiner. Of course, continue to run stories on the murder investigation, which was the front page news for thirty five days straight following the discovery of the body. So that will give you an idea of like how sensationalized this case was the Herald Express also looking for answers sought out criminologist. Dr Paul. River who was Kind of an expert, he would also like very pulpy sensationalized, and he kind of fueled headlines for a little bit longer after the so-called wall, he suggested the killer was a sadist who wanted to dominate Elizabeth Short. He also hinted that the killer might have been NECROPHILIAC. He said it must also be remembered that Seitz of this type have a superabundance of curiosity and are liable to spend much time with their victims. After the spark of life has flickered died how poetic doctor? When interviewed lead investigator Captain Jack Donohue told the press that he believes shorts murder had taken place in a remote building or shack of Los Angeles and her body was transported to. Lamar Park based on the cuts and section of shorts corpse the LAPD looked into the possibility that the murderer may have been a surgeon dr or someone with medical knowledge in February of Nineteen forty seven the LAPD served a warrant to the University of Southern California Medical School, which was located near the site where shorts body was discovered requesting a complete list of the program students they agreed because they had to agree and they checked out everyone on the list, but it didn't yield any results by spring of. Nineteen forty seven shorts mortar had become a cold case. No new leads a total of seven hundred, fifty investigators from the LAPD and other departments worked on the case during its only its initial stages along with four hundred sheriff's deputies, and two, hundred, and Fifty California state patrol officers by June one, thousand forty-seven police had processed and eliminated a list of seventy five suspects by December nineteen, Forty Eight, the detectives would considered over one hundred and ninety two suspects in total. This was a huge huge I wouldn't say drain. Depletion of the LA SHERIFFS and police departments resources but. That will show you much time. That this case took up at this point in La History Sergeant. Venus. Brown one of the lead detectives blame the press for compromising the investigation through the reporters probing of details and unverified reporting. True. But you know they didn't do a great job themselves in September nineteen, forty, nine, a grand jury convened discussing. And the LAPD homicide unit based on their failure to solve these cases especially. To, solve numerous murders of women and children mostly in the past several years shorts being one of them in the aftermath of the grand jury investigation was done on shorts past with detectives tracing her movements between Massachusetts. California. And Florida and also interviewed people who knew her in Texas new. Orleans again no useful information like I said so many people were involved in this case and so many people over five hundred even just. Confessed to killing Elizabeth. Short, some of whom weren't even born at the time of her death Sergeant John P Saint John another great name detective who worked on the case until his retirement stated is amazing. I'm going to offer up a relative as the killer two thousand, three Ralph as Del at the original detectives of the case told The Times that he believed he had interviewed Short's killer a man who had been seen in. His Dan Park near the vacant lot where her body was discovered on the morning of January Fifteenth Nineteen Forty seven a neighbor driving by that day stopped dispose of a bag of lawn clippings in the vacant lot when he saw parked sedan allegedly with its right rear door open the driver of the sedan was standing in the lot. The rival apparently startled the owner of the sedan who approached his car and peered in the. Window before returning to the car and driving away the owner of the sedan was followed to a local restaurant where he worked but was ultimately cleared of suspicion but also just such a weird someone came by looked at the body and drove away suspects remaining under discussion by all sorts of authors and criminologist and people who are interested in this case were Sony people anywhere from you know editors to doctors to Orson Welles to. You know what do you go three there so many people. and. So many rumors were circulated she. There's a couple of rumors that I just wanted to spell before we get into suspects. She wasn't burned by cigarette butts while she was alive. There's no proof that she was a sex worker rumor has it that she was able to have sexual intercourse because of a congenital defect that resulted in go navy all. Alternatives Infantile Genitalia, which is also in severed, but her channels were normal based on the coroner's report. She was never pregnant there. No proof that she was a lesbian either this rumor began after Bevo means of the Herald Express was told by the deputy coroner that Short wasn't having sex with men due to her small genitalia. But again, she was having sex with men according to men's reports means took this to mean that Short had sex with women and. Both he and the reports said, Hughes began investigating gay bars in Los Angeles for further information and not surprisingly didn't find anything the two, thousand, seventeen book the Black Dahlia. Red Rose by Pew well focuses on Leslie Dillon a Bellhop who is a former morticians assistant. His associates were Marquette an Jeff Connors and sergeant finished Brown. Local detective again, who had links and who has invested in the case this makes kind of sense you will says that Short was. Murdered because she knew too much about the men's involvement in the scheme for robbing hotels interesting. She also suggests that Short was killed the Astro Motel in Los Angeles where the owners reported finding one of the rooms covered in blood and fecal matter on the morning of shorts body being found the examiner stated in Nineteen forty-nine at L. A. Police Chief William a Worton denied that the flower street motel the Astra Hotel had anything to do with the case. Although the La Heralds claim that it did have something to do with them in two thousand Buzz Williams retired detective with a Long Beach Police Department wrote an article for the BP newspaper The rap sheet on Shorts Maura Williams Father Richard Epstein and his friend Con, Keller with members of the L. A. Gangster squad investigating the case Williams senior believe that Dylan was the killer and that when Dylan returned to his home state of Oklahoma, he was able to avoid. To California because his ex wife Georgia Stevenson was second cousins with the governor, and so he didn't have to again be taken in for questioning or do anything along the lines of the case Keller believe that Hanson was the killer he'd studied at surgical school in Sweden had thrown elaborate parties attended by prominent LAPD officials. Williams article says that Dylan sued the LAPD for three million but that the suit was dropped. Harnish disputes. This claim that Dylan was cleared by the police after an exhaustive investigation, but he was the kind one of the top people they were investigating the time and had a lot of very strong connections with Elizabeth Short and also you know an Lapd cover-up make sense. It's very sexy. I don't know but let's talk about George Hodel George. Hill Hodel junior was born October tenth nineteen o seven Ellie. Native well, educated highly intelligent scoring eighty six on an early Q. Test and he was a musical prodigy he would play Solo Piano Concerts Los Angeles Shrine Auditorium. He was this like wonder child he attended South Pasadena High School at age fifteen. He graduated and went to Caltech early but was forced to leave the university after one year due to a sex scandal that he was involved with with the professor's wife he was not the only person apparently fraternizing professor's wife. He had apparently impregnated the woman, but again, this is. Testimony not sure if it's true and wanted to raise their child together but she refused the affair between hotel on the woman had caused the professor and his wife's marriage to Paul part he had to leave Byron Nineteen. Twenty eight hotel was in a common law marriage with a woman named Amelia and had a son by her Dunkin in the nineteen thirties who is legally married to a model from San Francisco as well. Her name was Dorothy Anthony, and she had a daughter named Tamar they had a daughter named Tamar. He graduated from Berkeley premed in June nineteen, thirty two and immediately enrolled in medical school at University of California San Francisco which he got his medical degree in nineteen thirty six. After he was established as a doctor he moved to Los Angeles and kind of became immersed in La High Society in the nineteen forties he loved the dark side of surrealism. He loves surrealist artists. He was friends with man Ray and John. Huston, he loved kind of an interest in insects and sadomasochism and the darker side of art and philosophy. This was a pretty popular thing to be interested in in the Hollywood scene at the time. But along with that, he shared other finances that people at the time had including partying drinking and womanizing hotel second wife he had nine hundred forty and who was John. Houston's ex wife Dorothy Harvey. He called her Torrero because he had an ex wife who was also named Dorothy he purchase the Soden House in Nineteen forty-five and lived in that property from nineteen forty, five until nineteen fifty. This is when they think the murders happen. The structure was built by Lloyd Wright's son of Frank Lloyd Wright and we both been there. It is a historic landmark. It's surreal cavernous. Got these. Rooms I. It's almost like a hotel on the inside of it inside there. Yeah. Catering there I did my one and only catering job was there I was helping a friend who's having a we'd party there and it was very, very fun. It was fun to be inside of it was very strange and just thinking about the Black Dahlia case and in her being murdered in this place really kind of cold it. It's got this kind of. Like a throwback like Southville Michigan. Yeah. As Tekken Yeah exactly and that was a really popular motif is to kind of take these different think about like the Egyptian theatre, for example, like these different cultures and appropriating them and their architecture in a way that it's kind of like you know Polynesian and the idea of Tiki Tiki being appropriated. So any case it's An Amazing House there are so many rooms. They all lead to this one courtyard with looking like this reflection pool in the middle but he lived there he was a polygamous there in the late nineteen forties during the period of deaths of spalding and short he was living with d'oro and their three children including Stephen the son that would later prove his father. In a lot of ways to be the murder of the Black Dahlia, their daughter Tamar lived there and just a revolving door of of people and lovers came to the this house. So there of course is a suggestion that hotel had a relationship with short. He left the United States in nineteen fifty for Hawaii or he married another woman had another four children. They got divorced came back to the states married legally again for the fourth time lived in San Francisco the rest of his life died in nineteen, ninety, nine at ninety one. But he was first suspicion for the Black Dahlia murder and ninety, forty five he was want I'm at shortlist following the death of his Secretary Ruth spalding by drug overdose he was suspected of having murdered her in order to cover up his financial fraud heated fun stuff like billing patients for tests that were never performed and protecting various valuable secrets about abortion services that he provided to high profile people. About this time hotel left briefly for China where he worked with the United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration. All of this came to light in two, thousand and four. So this is stuff that was really buried for a very long time. In late nineteen, forty, nine huddles, teenage daughter, Tamar accused him of incestuous sexual abuse and impregnating her after which she was given a back alley abortion. He was acquitted after a gigantic trial. There have been three witnesses present during who and participated in the sex act to testified at the trial and the third recanted her earlier testimony and refused to come forward. The theory being that hotel had threatened her into silence. The trial had cosgrove Aguire and she made up the entire abuse allegation for attention after the trial though known or suspected sex criminals in the area were being investigated I for the Black Dahlia murder. That's where his name kind of came into play. It also came out in the trial that Tamar had allegedly claim that her father was the Dahlia killer hotels medical degree also arouse suspicion given the nature of the way her body was. and. The blood was let out at least eight witnesses claimed firsthand knowledge of Nineteen forty-six relationship between short and hotel then back from China and living Los Angeles. The full details of the investigation came to light only in two thousand and three. When George Hotel Black, Dahlia file was discovered in the vault at Los Angeles County District Attorney's office huge news. Amazing. Where was this file? Who knows the file reveal that in nineteen fifty hotel was the prime suspect of the Dahlia murder his private Hollywood residents was electronically bugged by. An eighteen men DA LAPD task force during the period February fifteenth to March. Twenty seventh nineteen fifty the transcripts of conversations revealed hotels references to performing illegal abortions, giving payoffs to law enforcement officials, and his possible involvement in the deaths of his secretary and short the DA tapes recorded him saying supposed I, did kill the Black Dahlia they can't prove it now they can't talk to my secretary anymore because she's dead they thought there was something fishy anyway now, they may have figured it out killed her maybe I did call my secretary. Okay pretty damning quote hotel was also interviewed by a suspect in the nearby June nineteen, forty, nine murder of Louis Springer. The green twig murder though evidence to support that was not available until July twenty eighteen after hotel died in nineteen, ninety, nine, his son Steve Hotel a former LAPD homicide detective wanted to learn more about his father innocently enough to whom he was very much estranged from in that process he uncovered all of this stuff, the file, the LAPD files, what his dad did essentially like his practices, his relationships, I can't imagine what that would be like it sounds very traumatic but all of that led him to believe that his father was in fact. Elizabeth Short's killer his investigation began with the discovery of a photo album owned by hotel, which contained portrait of a dark haired young woman. Who Steve Odell believed was short during his investigation. He learned his father may have been responsible for more than one murder y'all suspected his father being the Chicago lipstick killer of late nineteen forties perhaps also the Manila Jigsaw murderer of nineteen, sixty seven and even the San Francisco Zodiac killer of late nineteen sixties, which again we know is not true but that's that's a lot. It's a lot to find out about your father short is interred at the mountain view cemetery and after he. Had grown up and married their mother phoebe moved to Oakland to be near her daughter's grave. She finally returned to the East Coast nine hundred seventy s where she lived into her nineties on February second nineteen, forty seven, just two weeks after Short's murderer republican state assemblyman see Dan Feld was prompted by the case to introduce a bill called the formation of a sex offender registry. The State of California would become the first US state to make the registration of sex offenders mandatory. So of this so much heart heartbreak heartache sensationalism can corruption led to something good and that's kind of what they wanted to to end on to give this really fascinating and horrifying case a little bit of. positivity I would say and you put you put you put your money on it being Georgia Adel as the Yeah I. Think. So I mean the the reality is there's a lot of possibility of who could have been. She had a lot of male friends she was around a lot of people who did a lot of things but not all of them could have pulled this off as far as getting away with it and The way. I mean you know what happened to her physically I don't think any run of the mill criminal or murderer could do that at least alone no. Yeah, and it would have to be. I. Think I think it's hotel. There's some other morticians assistant a nurse Doctor I. think There was always theories there were more than one person which I I don't have a ton of of but who who knows yet, you need the skillset to have accomplished what they did with the Bible but that doesn't mean it was definitely means you need intelligence. You need medical understanding of medicine and surgery, and maybe having a proclivity toward the darker side of things doesn't Herp you need the means new do all that and be the kind of person to do that? Yeah. So I think they need and I it sounds like I mean according to his son his son pretty much thinks it's yeah. Yes. Police officer former police officers odd. Yeah. He I mean the son had a lot more to work with the other people too. So that again it makes his theory and and his case much more compelling to so yeah, I think I believe it to be him but there are again that's part of the case. There's so many possibilities even given what you would need to be to be the killer be would you say that if the general consensus is it's if you had to pick someone neutral dow. Likely for sure not to spoil anything because again, these books really the only book that says that it's him is his sons book. The other books have these different theories and a lot of them explore a lot of different theories and some weaker than others. These are the really the prominent ones. Especially being linked to other serial killers and being involved in a series of murders or something like that. It's hard to say, I can pretty confidently say whoever murdered the Black Dahlia probably murdered other people. The amount of precision. Again, the idea of clean the fingerprints off the just the aside from the medical expertise intelligence in. High. Society. I this is not your first Rodeo kind of thing. You wouldn't do go through this much and be like well, I'm good. Yeah I've kind of. Done yeah and also the arrogance thinking no, one would miss this person this young woman you know kind of lived data day, which is is very sad but it's it's all of these things beauty glamour. House slickness poverty you know this this beautiful woman with decaying teeth. You know that is kind of an apt metaphor for for la and for this case, some things I saw that that the idea that she was here to be an actress. Say That not necessarily true. Yeah. Necessarily jokes know one of the video took was at John Marshall High School. And took some modeling photos there the video and my book Jason Horton. We'll talk about anything for a dollar. Yeah. That book it's Yeah. But there's Meyer that those are some of the last known photos of possibly her alive. Yeah. So that was kind of interesting because I think the idea being like. You feel like peg entwistle who jumped off the Hollywood sign type totally old Hollywood lineker goal wasn't like it's acting or nothing and you know she. Ultimately died for her love of. Being famous or something like that button when you move to Los Angeles that's not you don't come here to be like I. I really I really love accounts receivable I gotta get to. Unless you are into account. And that's totally fine. I'm sorry Yeah. Please don't unsubscribe please. No No. Exactly and and people moving here just to be close to this to the you know what's happening in La especially in this time very glamorous I can't. I don't think she. No, she wasn't like shouldn't enroll in acton cloudy and she wasn't a serious actor but she loved the the idea of being around people. She loved the of like. All. These these kind of amorphous dreams of what it means to make a life in La and and those are really far away from the reality of it which she realized unfortunately. But a really fascinating case really iconic. I would say it's one of the most famous unsolved cases in the United States for sure and is is you know here here in our home of Los Angeles, love it or leave it, leave it now no, love it. Okay.

Los Angeles The Times Elizabeth Short Hollywood LAPD Daddy Elizabeth murder Herald Express California Massachusetts Jason Horton Angeles Betty Bersinger Los FBI Florida Boston Medford phoebe Manley San Diego
24. Believing We Can Win with Melina Abdullah

The Secret Lives of Black Women

48:07 min | 1 year ago

24. Believing We Can Win with Melina Abdullah

"Hey It's Sharla wanted to let you know about a dope pod casts Spanish. I keep presents. It's a show hosted by a bunch of hilarious lat next comedians where they break down the latest trends issues. Issues and general weirdness in the community. Oh and they always end with an Improv. skit Spanish aqui presents. Just release some bonus. Episodes available exclusively on stitcher premium. Liam when you become a premium listener you'll get ad free podcasts. Access to all the exclusive content on stitcher like bonus episodes archives early releases. And more more. And you'll be supporting all your favorite cereal shows including ours so go check out. stitcher premium at STITCHER PREMIUM DOT COM and. Use The code secret for a free month trial. Thanks I'm Lavar Burton and I'm back with another season of my podcast. Lavar Burton reads. I'm reading stories by the best and brightest writing minds out there authors. Like Neil Gaiman and Ken Liu in K. Jemison and you get to experience a whole story thirty to forty forty five minutes so join me for Lavar. Burton reads subscribed today just tap the picture on your screen or search Lavar Burton and asked me to your favorites. And I don't ever want to die alone like I don't WanNa die. Just be left there and so yeah and so we go and we core libation and sometimes we're literally standing on their blood so it's important that we understand like Malcolm says that you cannot. I have capitalism without racism. You're not banking black. That means you're putting your money in banks that actually profit from our oppression. But most of the time I just believe we can win. I just you know and I think it's don't happen even in my lifetime. I'll I'm not doing it just for my kids. I'm doing it for us right now. This is the secret lives of black women. I'm in I'M SHARLA and I'm Laurin and today we're talking about black liberation and social activism yes. I'm so excited it for us to talk about. This topic is something deeply passionate about. I can't believe that this is just getting to this. We were going to get to leading up to it. It's a slow burn lauren. You talk about this kind of thing a lot and I always feel like you are more articulate in speaking about your age than I am. I've you experienced feelings like this of being oppressed in What what have been your experiences with activism or just feeling thing like oppressed in this country? I mean you know I have very I don't i. I don't think that I am very very articulated in my rage on my beach about my thoughts on this because I'm not. I have not studied and not a scholar but a half participated in you know a lot of like a protest. I wish that I was far more involved in you. Know Protests and liberation ration- movements on a daily basis But I do. I don't know for me I feel like I'm doing the bare minimum for or something that I am so deeply passionate about and just frustrated about as a black woman that exist in this world that exists in this industry I feel like we both work in entertainment industry and for me. It's like I just feel that like I'm like how do I even like articulate articulate off my anger and rage in that like the black experience is not adequately shown an shown through like a lens and a gaze of Whiteness. And how do we overcome that too. Like free ourselves thousand exists in the system and we work in a system that that is literally its function you know that since a freedom to like be a black person and go out in the world and just do what did you fucking want. Do what feels good and not have like the gaze of the Lens of like how this is perceived like I feel so trapped and I just wanted to be free and it makes me meet angry. Yeah my frustration is always. How do you gain freedom without completely tearing bring it down because if the only way to gain freedom is to is to operate within a racist structure then is it real freedom? What it is you have to tear down the thing that I you know? We live our lives and is the function of our lives in order to I think create this base of like liberation. But how do we do that. When we're so tied to the function of capitalism? I still like nice things. The way that this system is is built in order for you to have nice things someone is not. Yeah and it's like you have to be willing to give up those trappings in order to create a space so that everyone can can exist and thrive and well. The thing about America is that its co opted nice things as something that is only a function of capitalism. When it's it's not like like everyone can enjoy nice things and what? How much is enough? That's a question I've been asking myself a lot. It's like America is a kind of place that makes me feel like a lot is not enough and this to me is where the the degradation of society really lies. Where like we are looking to have everything? We're looking to have. What celebrities have? We're looking to have this ideal life. That is absolutely unrealistic and not real oh and bat shit crazy because in order for it to exist at least in the way that it exists in America it does rely on someone being stomped on and once you hit that Bar Are that bars the not enough right so the concept of enough is a fallacy. If it's constantly moving right you know and Hollywood is the place place for never feeling fulfilled. Even if you have everything is the kind of place where it's the kind of place where it's like this is this is. This is the frustrating thing about the place that we word is that being black is then co opted to feed a white liberal need of feeling like of their guilt. Feeling like I felt bad. Let's let's let's properties black voices but let's take all the things that make them true and unique away from them so that it's a black boys but but it's a black voice that is still palatable to a white audience. Yeah then what is the point but even when it's painful even when it's hard to watch and it's still calls outweigh people. Oh it's still like made by white people which makes me feel often painful. How it's painful? How painful because it showcasing our trauma where where the celebration of like our joy of triumphs told through like black people and black lands and their own voice own black people not just making money you for white people and at the discretion of white people? You know this is like this is the frustration that I have is that it in the paradigm of this system in which we exist in order to reach that level of success. You're always going to hit that barometer. Wear where your success lies is determined by like money right by money and it's just like it is it's frustrating. It's frustrating when it makes me think think of through my own Like through my own lens of just like work right now and I'm you know well. We have the perfect gusts to talk about this. Today's guests is doctor. Melina Abdellah. She is a recognized expert on race gender class and social movements. She was among the original group of organizers convenient to form black lives matter and continues to serve as the Los Angeles chapter leader. She's also professor and chair Pan. African studies at the California State University Los Angeles she's from Oakland and has written several books chapters and articles on subjects ranging from the coalition building to women as smothering. I WanNa talk to her about so so many things for so I mean less. Let's get started closer it started. Let's talk to Dr Molina. I want to start with saying that. I love that you've got on your your Oakland Black Panther shirts and you're you're you're from Oakland and I wanna start with just learning a little bit more about you and how you got involved in political activist activist movements particularly around like black liberation sure. Well I'm from Oakland born in the seventies even though I'm twenty nine so don't let them out full you uh-huh but Oakland in the seventies you basically were born into movement right. So I'm the Panther cub generation. My parents weren't panthers but they you did contribute to a lot of the survivor programs. That's what Oakland was the like in the seventies and so there is no moment I often Ask Ask my students like when did they step into activism and some people asked me the same question you asked me but there is no moments I was kind of born into it and remember being on the picket lines at three and four years old with my dad was a carpenter And involved in the Union. So I've always been active I I think the moment of kind of being formally kind of entrenched movement really came with the birth of black lives matter but I had always been active leading up to that. What happened when black lives matter started that got you entrenched? Well I I was never what people would call a joiner right so I was always involved in demonstrations and protests but I was kind of like an anonymous face Most of us are like. Yeah Yeah so I'M GONNA come to every protest. I'm going to speak up. I'm GonNa you know I really believed moved in kind of liberation work in the classroom. I did a lot of community. Organizing on campuses A lot around ethnic studies did a lot of work even in high school who I remember protesting and we started. Pick it outside there. But that's not like a being a member of an organization And so what happened. Spend with black lives matter as it was really kind of just birthed organically and so a lot of us in Los Angeles especially poured out into the streets after Zimmerman was acquitted in the murder of Trayvon Martin and we demonstrated for you know days and then finally I got a text that originated originated with Patrisse cullors who I was in a Black community organizers collective with And it came through a Black Independent journalist listening time to seize way Chimurenga and it said Meet at nine PM. Saint ELMO's village. which is this black artists community here and so so I went but again it just felt very organic and I went in? I had had my students and other mamas in the streets with me and we all about fifteen of US went into that meeting and we didn't know that it was going to be what we pledged that night in the middle of the night in the moonlight Because they know most villages kind of built like an African village is to build a movement not a moment and we. It sounded great and we were committed to that but we didn't know we were kind of giving birth to this global movement to become you know kind Donovan. Internationally known movement right it was after the not after the death of Trayvon Martin with it kind of had it caught on. It didn't catch on until after the murder of Mike Brown in Ferguson I remember when Black lives matter was starting to grow as a movement one of the frustrations that I had was watching white organizations. Not speak up and link arms and say yeah black lives matter it was almost like I mean to me. It was like a slur almost like for white people say black lives matter black lead. They like jump on Blue Lives Matter Al and I'm just like just say black lives matter right. It's fear of centering. The black experience and saying that like like what is wrong with saying black. Like I feel like we encroach a lot of things under diversity. PSE instead of saying black. And what's the fear of being like. It's black black lives matter there. Were not saying that like no one else lives matter but fuck and we sent her ourselves and whenever we send our cells as a people arms you know this is this is the secret lives of black on this show. This is a space filled. Serve it but that is one of the things that frustrated me so much even in this movement even in a time of so much pain which is often the case. Still you've to censor yourself and is this very political word. Just just the word itself right political right and I mean it's also you know a form when we talk about white supremacy. It's really important that we understand that white supremacy is tethered to anti blackness right and so as we talk about racism in the way that racism plays out in this country everything begins with the dehumanisation of black people full. And so they want to talk about. You know these kind of broad terms. It's why they try to force US under this people of Color umbrella which you know there is a place for solidarity right but we have to be able to talk about the specific ways in which black people are oppressed right so so when we started talking about black lives matter and saying black lives matter it was offensive to not only white people but other people of color were Langley. Will you know you know. It's not just black. People Killed by beliefs. No it's not but it's mostly lost it's mostly and so we need you to remember the police come from slave catchers who put targets on black people's backs right and so if we think about that if we start in and it's not a a threat to anybody else now if you work with if you work to liberate Black People One's black people get free. Everybody gets right. And so it's in their best interest to do that unless they're wedded to the system of white supremacy and I mean that just makes me think of so many things that are being wedded to this white supremacy in this whole idea like a seat at the table and who gets to see WHO's proximity to whiteness even as this blanket term people of color were who has a closer proximity to whiteness. And when you use use those blanket terms it force people not to check their own anti blackness and when they don't check their anti blackness then the system just keeps heaps keeps thriving. Because it's like it's A. It's a distraction from being like. Well we cannot look at this we can. We can blanket it. We can say things are better right. You know we're all because I do believe in solidarity but I do believe in like a movement for Black Liberation and I think you know when we don't stolley focus on that we just we put a cover so that the system of white supremacy can still continue to thrive people think that were progressing forward and really. Nothing's happening right. I'm GonNa give you a real clear illustration of what you're saying so yesterday I went to the attorney. Ernie General's office to meet with some senior folks the California Attorney General's name have year but said and I went with the mother of a brother named David Joe Cya Lawson in who was killed by a white supremacist way up in northern California in a place called Humboldt County he was stabbed to death and Because it's a small town. It's fairly isolated. The white supremacist killer named Kyle Zoellner was protected by really every institution in that town primarily the district attorney who Made sure that she represented him instead of the victim. In the case David Joseph Lawson who was a nineteen year old black male honor student at Humboldt State University so I went with his mom to meet with the staff of the attorney. General's Office these senior staff staff members. who were both white one of the the policy director was a white woman and she had on her black suit and she had on ethnic ethnic right they like to use that term and ethnic necklace? Right which just means not European but some had some beads on it right and so we're sitting there and the first thing that they say is I'm sorry I can't help you with your case. So they took months and then said basically. They're not going to do anything being to intervene in this case and we could get into. How fucked up this cases like this boy who did everything right not that you should have to be perfect it right but they give us idea of the perfect victim right and you know this is the perfect victim and nobody's fighting for him except black people and what is said is basically that There's no sense in calling being on a system to represent the interests of black people that they have not done that they haven't ever done it and and then she holds up. This white policy director holds up and says so I said well this is white supremacy because if the victim had been white and the killer had been black he'd be locked up right now and she said. I take offense to that because heavier but said is the first first Hispanic Attorney General so when we talk about the idea of anti blackness and the problem with this overarching people people of color umbrella. I think that encapsulates it in some way by electing a quote unquote hope vere beset is offended by the fact that this white woman called Him Hispanic which is an oppressive term in and of itself right but the idea that the token ization of US quote Unquote Hispanic Attorney. General meets means something for black. Liberation is hugely problematic. I love that you are bringing up the the system system which is something that Lauren. I talk a lot about and one of the things that I talk. I've talked about on this podcast. Before is the idea that the only way that I think people are going to have any kind of liberation is if we have some sort of financial power you you know like the more like I really believe in educating like financial education for black people building black wealth because that is the system that we are in even learn tonight. We're having a conversation about Can we be a system from within or do we have to destroy like you. You tweeted did about. You tweeted a video of Angela. Davis talking about capitalism is okay if I play the video sure and I feel that if we're going to talk about told the total liberation of black people we I have to liberate ourselves from the material conditions of our Russian Russian and the material conditions of oppression are no jobs a bad jobs. Unemployment bad housing bad medical care and all of the kinds of things. That will be eradicated under socialism. I I believe in socialism. I believe it is a way for for it is. It is one of the few avenues we have to structurally change America in a good way for all people but in particular alert to really to really bring about any kind of sense of reparations for for what this country has done to to black people. Can you speak on on your beliefs about socialism more. I don't know how to phrase this question but can you do you like an economic ended for. Yeah yeah so I absolutely agree that we are never going to get free under a capitalist system. I don't believe in replacing white capitalism but listen with black capitalism I think though that it's important that we understand power of Collective you've resources if we think about and I think even From our arrival here in this country right if you think about black mutual aid societies the original purposes of blacks fraternities and Sororities The role of black churches the AME church in particular. It was about pooling black resources so that we could collectively benefit from them and so in black lives matter and twenty fourteen. We launched something something called black. XMAS recognizing the role that white capitalism plays in the oppression and the state violence experienced by black people. And what brought it on was a murder of John Crawford inside a Walmart store right and people will remember. This was in Beaverton Ohio. He picked up Walmart merchandise dice which was like a BB gun right and he was just walking around the store talking on the phone like everybody else was doing Walmart. I imagine. I've never been in a walmart. Good for you. But he's walking around Walmart. Someone calls police on him. They murder him in a span of seconds and we can Ohio an open carry state it is an open carry state and it wasn't even a gun yes right. So there's that and so you know this happens but then you also think about the murder of your vet Henderson and Oakland who was accused of shoplifting at home depot pro police are called on her for shoplifting. Killer in the parking lot you think about here in Los Angeles two black men back to back being killed in twenty twenty four hour fitness. They were both Jim members and they made the non black workers uncomfortable with their presence. Twenty four hour fitness. It doesn't change their policy or even issue an apology and then twenty eighteen they kill Albert Ramone Dorsey. So there's this role that corporations play in the murder black people and you know of course we could also take that back to Chattel slavery in the ways in which people have been killed. So it's important that we understand hand like Malcolm says that you cannot have capitalism without racist and so there has to be an economic agenda for black people so in two thousand fourteen we started. It's something called Black ex-miss where at least for this period from what they call black Friday two January first. We want black people and all people to be intentional intentional. About where their dollars go. So we ask everybody to divest every single penny from white capitalism right so don't spend spend money at Walmart for sure. You should never spend money at Walmart. But don't spend money with the white corporations that actually profit from from black oppression instead we have kind of a three point program build black so don't be consumers if you don't have to instead of buying me something donate donate to blank and you can write in which organization and there's everything from organizations like mind. Black lives matter to the Fernando Pulham Center which offers was free arts and music programs for black kids and Lamar Park right thing about what we call building black. Investing those dollars in black led organizations and then the the second thing is buying black and so this is what you're asking about buying black is important and it's important that when we think about black black businesses that we also support black businesses. That do something for black community. So it's not just about lining the pockets of black entrepreneurs it's also about a consciousness that we have among kind of black business owners where they're also working to contribute to black community. So John Books Right opening up the bookstore and having readings and discussions with black authors who were well-known like Tennessee coats but also not well known like unpublished published or self published authors. So that's by black. And then finally the third point point is banking black and we got a lot of heat when we pushed the bank. Thank Black Movement. Because they were like it's capitalism it's black capitalism that you're pushing we talked with you know all of our mentors and and one of the things that we adopted which is actually a black power. Principle is survival pending revolution. which you're going to do with your money? You don't have cash cash stuffed under your managers if you're not banking black. That means you are putting your money in banks that actually really profit from our oppression bank of America Wells Fargo Citibank All of these big banks chase. They made eight money off the slave trade right. They also finance things like the Dakota access pipeline like private prisons. So you're we're actually giving them the capital to oppress us. Why not give your money to one United Bank which actually sets up trust funds for the children of those those killed by police not saying that it's perfect but it's a better system so anyway that's a long answer to an economic agenda? We believe that the ultimate answer the answer to this is really dismantling capitalism and thinking thinking about what Kwami to ray and others Talked about With which is African scientific socialism right so not Some people are Marxists Right We believe that you can have spirituality. The in socialism spirituality and socialism are actually Really they go to get do. Yeah well we really WanNa talk more about the personal aspect of your socialism and activism and will do that After this break this episode is brought to you by children of virtue in vengeance. The instant Number One New York Times bestseller seller and stunning sequel to Tomi Ademi's novel children of blood and bone. These books have taken the world by storm. Entertainment weekly calls it a phenomenon. Non and Tommy is already being compared to Mega Author J. K.. Rowling The New York Times says Tommy poses thought provoking questions about race class and authority. This sweeping fantasy series is described as Black Panther with magic bringing both black lives matter and black girl magic into fictional west African world inspired by Tony's Nigerian Rian routes if you haven't read children of blood and bone and children virtue in vengeance yet now is the time Evans says there the next big thing in literature and film. That's right a movie is already in development with Lucasfilm and it's sure to be the next blockbuster hit join the phenomenon. See why everyone is talking about children. Virtue in vengeance. Read it now new show alert and it's from some of our friends. It's called Sundstrom hosted by IGLOO and Alesia Garza I John and Alesia are two leading activists in America and the show is all about how women help each other stay joyful and powerful amidst the chaos of life today which let's just say we all need ate a little bit of that each week. They talked to their friends and Xiros about their. Inspirations their squads they're guilty pleasures and what it means to fight and win subscribe to Sun Storm Wherever you're listening right now. This episode is brought to you by children of virtue in vengeance. The instant Number One New York Times bestseller and stunning sequel to Tomi. Eddie Amis novel children of blood and bone this sweeping fantasy series is described as Black Panther with magic bringing both black lives matter and black girl magic into the fictional channel West African world inspired. By Tony's Nigerian roots join the phenomenon and read it now and we're back. Lauren really has a question she wants to ask you. I mean I have one which is something that I struggle with a lot is. How do you maintain a sense of hope and change when we look at the systems and the power structures that are belt to keep us down right and they seem at times insurmountable right and it's just like what do you do personally to keep the fight going within yourself and being like this this possible like maybe I won't see Black Liberation Liberation in my lifetime but maybe my kids will so there's moments very few and far between where it doesn't seem like we can win you know? Oh but most of the time. I just believe we can win. I just you know and I think it's GonNa Happen in my lifetime. I'm not doing it just for my kids kids. I'm doing it for us right now. Like I think that We don't spend enough time focusing on the victories. Right and and thinking about like okay so black lives matter you asked about it right so we come out into the streets for a couple of days. We get in a circle in a black artists community ready and then all of a sudden a year later. It's like a global movement. That shit is a victory. Do you remember and twenty thirteen when we could not say black right when we talked about this when you said black people would go all this racists. Yeah right now where expected to be able to say a black agenda is right and if we don't do that then you're really kind of a sellout right so we have all of these victories. What gives me the greatest open? Then I'll get to a a few practices that I have. Are you watching these kids like the kids. I mean like twenty one and under I mean like fifteen and they believe anything is possible and may call people out and they fully expect people to respond to them. They they like holy on Kastrati. Hit Me Castro right. I wasn't even up on him and they were like my daughter was like Mama. You gotta pay attention to what he's saying. So I started paying attention attention like Houlihan sitting up. He got his opening quote on his website is by Audrey. I'm GonNa following him I think. He's I actually. I think he's under overlooked. And under what is it exposed right you know like I'm. I'm personally very frustrated with the attention that Buddha judges getting especially with his record and his lack of information about the black community I I have a lot of frustrations with what the white gay organizations in their lack of support for black people and black black lives because I feel like I watched black people and Black Organization stand up for gay lives all the time and when I'm talking about this particular particular talking about like white gay male right like they ex- they only take help but they don't give it and I feel like Buddha judges example of this and it's really frustrating to watch and you watch them ignore any race Black Queer and Trans folks. You're absolutely really right into white. Gay Agenda White Really. A white male gay agenda does not privileges in being white males like the gay part is just an afterthought afterthought and that's why they're being elevated and I'm just like but what about the black people that got you here that got you to be able to be out like this and you ignore them and Arabia townhall shit. They had that they called. What did they call it? Quality Quality townhall. No it was like on CNN it was like the equality townhall but it was about just like a single axis framework on Lgbtq right and so they didn't even have a black trans woman had to stand up and say what about Black Trans Women but also the concept of equality how did that become you know meaning LGBTQ and not racism and sexism. Classism right. We'll to me this white supremacist. The function whites producing it's the function rights per that's even embedded in like the feminist movement because the separation of being like but you can be your black. They're black women too. Yeah right so how do you. You can't take race out of the system equation and think that things are going to be okay if you have a whole group and you remove black people from it with in what they're doing is they're taking the oppressions that they can. They can hide frankly and he did Georgieva. Yes co-opting them and ignoring and erasing the black people that made that put these issues in the forefront inside the main thing on that that's like the one thing that's removing you from experiencing the full onslaught of white supremacy that you can benefit from So it's like how can I just like you know. Move Myself More to get that full experience. And it's not caring about other people that are right victims of it right Ron Stanley But I would love to. I want your steps of so. Yeah the kids. Give me hope the kids. You know the the audacity of sand presidential candidates respond to our issues the identity of saying. Yeah this is a a forum on and gun violence and we want to talk about how police violence is gun. Violence Right The the willingness. So if you think about I'm watching Tim. My daughter right in the space so she my two daughters are co founders of the Black Lives Matter Youth Vanguard right so my oldest is really entrenched changed in this whole what is their generations. The Jeonju I think so she's really entrenched in this whole agency organizing right so these Parkland kids find found March for our lives and most of them are white in affluent and the kids challenged him. But here's the difference between their generation in Mine and yours right is a white kids responded. The the white kids were like you know what you right so you watch like David Hogg Right. WHO has every white male privilege in the world? Now Pledge He's never going to get on stage without a black woman right and so this generation and I'm not saying he's perfect but I know the white kids. When I was in highschool you would never do shit like right? I love the audacity of these kids. So these kids when you say how do you keep yourself going. I watch them because they believe anything is possible. And it's going to happen tomorrow right. The other thing that I do like in the moments which Char- few and far between for me is you know we don't talk about it enough. I think is black people but I have a spiritual practice and I think that Eh. You know there's some good stuff about solidarity but I think what happened. Beginning with my generation is kind of I'm almost a shaming of our indigenous practices. Right where black people thought it was You know unintelligent it to say Hallelujah right like do you know how we ended. Colonialism on the continent is through our spiritual practice. So you know we shouldn't do is let them do us into thinking. We don't need to pray that we shouldn't talk to our ancestors that we should act like you know the whispers that I hear now I must say on crazy to white folks. I'm sure but that's okay But in the shower I hear my ancestors my guy talking to me and telling me to do this do do that. And it's clear I know what it is right and so part of what gets me through is hearing that and saying this is the voice of like one of the things we need to think about even especially with black lives matter when we go out we try to go out as soon as someone is killed and we pour libation for that person person right because their bodies are stolen but their spirits are present right and we don't want them like even if you just think thinking about yourself personally. I don't ever want to die alone like I don't WanNa die and just be left there and so yeah and so we go and we pour libation and sometimes we're literally standing on their blood. So how can you not have a spiritual practice doug to have the we've talked about some heavy things I WanNa know what's the lighter side of your life. I laugh every fucking day. The why are you laughing at right now. I have three kids. Oh they're funny. They're areas so my youngest is a boy he's he's fourth grade. He had a girlfriend in the first and second grade and now they're broken. Larry is because I said whatever happened to her her and he said she's in a different classroom. Long distance relationships everybody knows is a long distance. Relationship would never work shit so yeah so my my kids be having me rolling. Watch stand up comedy almost every day. I like that. What's his name rail? Yeah Yeah oury Regal Yeah Lil rel. Yeah so I just watched his stand up. That was hilarious. And I've been make fun of the stand up like why are black black people who were not from La calling it in crenshaw instead of on crenshaw like I don't understand what in crenshaw what are you in that doesn't make sense it doesn't make sense at all. I don't know if that's like a like a grammar thing. I don't know if it's just like nonentity it's ongoing they keep calling it in crenshaw. I think they come cringe place. Not a Surrey. I think when Nipsy got killed I see and we started talking talking about in the crenshaw district. Then they started thinking it means. You're supposed to say well. So if you're saying in crenshaw gotcha wrong. We like to every episode asking our guest. What is your secret to life to thriving to being you? That's a hard ask question. My secret grid is one of my secrets is submission to the will of God And working to honor honor my ancestors and make my momma proud beautiful beautiful absolutely beautiful. What a pleasure it's been to have you allante? Thank you so much for coming and speaking with US thank you thank you thank you so laurie learning I just talked to Dr Molina Abdulah. I've been saying Abdellah time like someone who can't read But this is not about a I lack of an a pronunciation ability. This is about one of the dopers interviews. We've possibly ever had these getting better and better I. You know I'm Blessed I'm so in awe of black woman I'm just GonNa work that. They do their their presence in June. I mean I'm I'm just feeling really like impacted. Yes I her. Her words of hope like I'm going to be honest today like a really rough day day for me and my feeling like is there. Is there a way out or up out of this shit and I I feel so much better I feel I have more hope through this conversation and it was just like a reminder for me that when I lose my sense of hope or that things can change they win and Anita I always remember to keep that to keep that in mind. I really loved a lot of the things she said but one of the great thing she said was her secret. I loved her secret I left. That's my word. Yeah I totally stole. Stole your thing where you're like. I always here because it's usually the most impactful thing you know. 'cause that's the point of that question. And you know and submission right is is interesting to me because the word itself implies this weakness I think but what I've learned over the years especially As you know learn ideal with so much anxiety. I'm a very anxious person and so much of the training that I've gotten from meditation is is a is a sort of submission. It is a sort of acceptance ends. Admission and acceptance are not the same thing but I think they're cousins cousins and for me. Her whole words spoke to me as a person person who does have a deep spiritual practice like I pray in the morning I pray at night and her whole thing of submission to the will of God and working to hear my ancestors are lake two big things that I try to focus on my life so it was just like remember to like when I feel when you feel like you can't just get through just to get still and let them talk to you and listen and like let my ancestors be like my guides. I don't know if I've ever talked about this on the part before. And if I have forgive give me guys but one of the conversations that we had you know that fateful meeting that reuniting that we had when we had dinner we talked about working together. Her one of the things I was in a very dark place says usual as a black woman in the world. Dark place I was like doc feeling very like I. Just I'm at my wit's end I don't know how to get to the next level and one of the things that you said to me was does stand on the shoulders of the ancestors. He said something like that. Like like like you're not alone you you reminded me that. I've come so so far and that was one of the things that I loved that Dr Abdulah talked about was. Let's think about the great things we've done and how far we've come how far we've come. How far we come like the fact that we exist like when you think of just you as a black purses and chattel over for me as a black American Chattel slavery and the things that my ancestors head to persevere through so that I can sit did here in brea is like how how dare have the audacity to sit in feel hopeless? Yeah and my this conversation. N- The remembrance of you know Matt People Who Send Me Signs all the time is just a reminder to be lake nothing will defeat you because you are guided. Absolutely you know. Well yes I word of the week. you know you know what it it is. It's the mission I think right now are the world is calling on us to to give. That's that's why give of our time give our energy give of our resources and I. I've been kind of ignoring that call for a little while you you know and I think this this is a great time to recommit myself to to submit to the collective to the greater sense of. We're all in this together to the call to stand up and speak out as it seems like black men constantly are but hey if that's what I'm here for do it. Yes our cup runneth over our cubs turning over and hope this pod helps your cup. Yeah Fill Your Cup House. Fill fill fill your cup in. Hopefully this is giving you some inspiration to like not let not let motherfuckers get you down fighting writing and be informed and grow is something that I am just internally thankful feel blessed for the community ready of women yeah make sure to check out black XMAS DOT ORG as mentioned by Dr Abdulah and maybe considered switching to a black bank There's so many things to do and just thank you guys so much and we will talk to you soon thank you. That's a Rafferty's on season two. We are on hiatus but we will be back so soon and in the meantime where can people find us they can follow us at the NFL VW on Instagram and twitter. So do it do it. States checking out those things for post and updates about our triumphant return learn and and we can't wait to talk to you soon we are your hosts Charlotte Morriston and Lauren. Domino the secret lives of black woman is is a production. Stitcher our producer. Is Stephanie Kariuki. Our editor is John Palmer. The show is recorded and mixed by Andy. Kristen's special thanks to our chief. Content sent officers Chris Bannon and Brendan Byrne who made our theme music. Make sure you follow us on instagram twitter at the S. L. B. W.. See you later.

Walmart America Oakland murder Black Movement Lavar Burton Lauren Black Organization Los Angeles Dr Molina Abdulah Malcolm Melina Abdellah STITCHER Matt People Liam Laurin Neil Gaiman The New York Times crenshaw
Trek Untold-Episode 2 | Ursaline Bryant

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1:05:05 hr | 11 months ago

Trek Untold-Episode 2 | Ursaline Bryant

"Hi I'm Brian. I was kept in trailer. Got On star Trek the next generation the episode conspiracy and you are listening to trek until welcome back to TREK UNTOLD STAR. Trek inspired podcast. That goes beyond the stars. I'm your host Matthew Kaplowitz looking back on the first season of Star Trek the next generation you can see a show that was trying to find its voice figure itself out after all this was star Trek Star Trek almost twenty years since the original series aired. The actors from the original series are still making movies but next-gen took place in an entirely different era and so to do the show have to become more modern for the eighties. Some episodes of the first season having age too l. from all sorts of different perspectives. And some are just outright oddities. Case in point the episode our guest on today's show appeared in earth and Bryant played the role of Captain Trial Scott in the episode conspiracy which was a totally dark episode in just about every trick show ever that point but I mean it was really a dream. Come true on star trek a show. She watched growing up and had quite a connection with her career goes lightyears beyond trek though as we discuss her roles before and after her time serving starfleet as what she's doing nowadays she's got some very fun stories. Talk about working on shows like the Golden Girls Seinfeld the Redd Foxx show and a lot of wisdom to share as well before we begin this episode. I'd like to remind you to follow us on facebook twitter and Instagram at trek cold. One word no spaces you can also support our show by visiting Patriot dot com slash trek untold. If you're already following US or offering your support anyway thank you for your help. Most of all please make sure to subscribe to this podcast and leave a rating on review. Wherever it is that. You're listening to it. This helps more people find us and hear the show and I'd also like to make a quick shout out to our friends at triple fiction productions. Who MAKES THEM GREAT? Three D. Printed Star Trek inspired products for toys and people. But you're going to hear more about them a little bit later now without further ado. Let's be this week's guest computer access injury file affirmative initiating program welcome back to track untold. Now join me on the other side of the line. We now have ursuline Bryant who you might remember from season one episode of Next Gen Conspiracy Ursuline. How're you doing today doing very well today? How are you doing all right? You know we're in some crazy times of course right now in the world and I'm so glad connect with you over the phone to chat a little bit about star trek and your entire career. Yes yes I appreciate that. So let's start at the beginning with the question. I like to start all these interviews with and that is what was your earliest memory of Star Trek captain. Kirk and spock talk. I love it stock and I would watch that original series Whenever it was on and then it got cancelled and came back in reruns. I watched it opening up a game and I wanted to connect to the stars and style so that was my first. It was the original star Trek series. That can if you tell us about your childhood like where were you born? Who Your parents? What did they do well? I was born in Washington. Dc My parents are no longer with me. With the US they've transcend their and transitioned on hopefully much much better place. But my mom worked in the school system and Washington DC. And my father I did not know a lot about so I so I'm onto twice and then not with that. So what got you interested in becoming an actress well actually want to learn to fly planes and that was because I was a stargazer outlook. Look up at the sky. At night I would lie on the grass in the summer and watch the Star and the heaven and I just wanted to be a part of that but I I try and send it to what I physically was about. Five or ten very then very agile so I started modeling in Washington. Dc which turned me into on TV. I've string TV commercials. I was doing runway shows on TV in Washington DC and That got me after car and I did not know how valuable that was until I got to New York so shortly to New York started. Marlene and then one day. I was sitting in terms of the camera. Okay I think I WANNA do a little more and then I started taking acting classes and found out that the drama was already there and I just exploit it. You tell us where you studied acting with the Negro on some company in New York When I transitioned to Los Angeles I studied with the renowned. And she's no longer with us either. Melton cats fellas workshops with Lynn. Redgrave's doesn't I've Shakespeare with her Be Richard so shops and things of that nature so they always Life student so I'm continuing to study and my study takes many different paths but at that time Inner City Cultural Center was up and running so I studied so much their dance and movement and acting techniques stance. Shakespeare workshops so that was some of the things back then had him visited that resume in so long. I forget something we always like to chat with. People have Shakespearean backgrounds. That's a very strong pedigree to have to be learning acting from He. Just tell us if there was one lesson he learned during that time. That stuck with you to this day catch when I first began to study best scam. They suggested reading and it has nothing to do this. What I felt acting was at that time. They suggested that. I read autobiography Yogi. Now listen just meet. It was the entire class but I found out that that was a connection for me. Because there's nothing outside of me and it's all inside so I began at. I think that was my introduction into real self reflection suck the development and self involvement and that book. I continue to read It led me onto things like chopard carry water. Which is such a great disciplines. I simplistic wonderful discipline Other than that and then he kicked me out of class instead. Go five which you need to do but you know I'm still searching due to search in Now for the perfect path but for the one that I can win the gift that I have to and create a better hold all right very good now. According to IMDB your first show was. Bronco in nineteen seventy five. But I'm sure you did some things before that kind of give us look view of what led you to your parents mine first TV appearance. Oh my goodness oh no. I guess I should have my resume in front of me but I don't answer I'll walk through it. I got it off. Yes please walk me through it but was not the first one getting. Franck which will mention right now is That appearance appearances. Nineteen seventy five. It was a detective show with Jack. Plants for Jack. Talents was one of my idols. I I really loved his work. He was so in depth and everything he came out of his mouth was so believable and so it was a real pleasure. Even though I didn't get a one on one with him in a scene there was a great pleasure to be Be a part of something that he was involved breast. Oh you know what I'm going to let this ripe for a minute. My memory has a way of coming back at unreach- import but it's just not there right now. I can't remember. Let me help jog your memory here. I can tell you a little bit more about that episode you. Did you play the character of Michelle? You're the wife Austin Stoker's character yes and unfortunately basically the first five minutes episode you die in a car trail visit your car explodes. I know remember that so I just wanted to know. I mean basically most of your screen time was with Austin Stoker. Who Very strong actor. Very underrated still works today. He's done so many things. Do you remember any time you spent with him and work on that episode called Austin. I became very good things on that show A little bit about the phone before him because I see him out on dishes and things of that nature and I think we might have done a TV commercial together. I'm not sure but he did become friends and that kind of locked it and I just always admired his folks so support. Yeah you know going out to see. The theater The place that he was doing and by starts did he ever give you any. You've really great life advice or acting advice that you've held onto no. I'm sure he did. You know anyone that I'd with I have Been Fortunate enough to take something valuable away. I think the thing of it is is to And I don't know he bought this to me. It's just to be who you are and find that character within the Rome approve. You are without searching all the place outside of this job but to dig deeper and pull out the layers and then just let it flow so it seems at this point. A lot of your acting theory is based on getting those intrinsic elements within you and give them externally so the audience kind of standard. Is that correct correct? I think we come equipped I mean we as a whole people. Everybody comes here for a very different purpose and nobody can do what we do or how we do it. But you don't know that you know as a child as a teenager as a young adult as an older though still looking and searching I am at a place where I'm very pleased with myself. I have looked back on some of the things that done. I'm GonNa Oh my goodness you have been my company of some phenomenal and I've learned a lot of lessons but intrinsically I still search within my motivation are very good. Now we're not gonNA go through every single the don on your resume so much but I wanted to pick up a few other highlights on that includes your time working on. The hardy boys and Nancy drew mysteries. And then eventually we come to nineteen eighty-six which is one of the things. I guess I've seen with you one hundred times and didn't know you were in until today but you're in one of the best episodes ever of the golden girls I had. I am so glad you've been that up now. That was a masterclass so just sorta listeners that episode of ladies of the evening and that's an episode word the Golden Girls. They all get arrested for being mistaken as prostitutes. And you are literally locked in a cell with the Arthur Betty White mcclanahan. What is that like what what was a master class in human nature and the art of? Acting the craft. These women were so phenomenal. Never miss a beat. Did Not Miss this joke? Whether a subtle or birth or over the talk even they were masters at put. They did it. I mean it was so I was so grateful to be on that set. I would leave. I mean I've watched everything that I could watch. I'd listened but being there was like I'll Jim comes to I would say so. What are those ladies like offset? Oh they were great. You know a very very into them. Selves They would go their separate ways especially be office. She was very I would say very reserved. I'M GONNA use that word because that's what people think of me that I'm shy and I am but I'm just not I call myself What is that an introverted extrovert? And that's what the author appeared to be to me. She was very very quiet and With easily removed herself but she show up on time to be there but she does not always around. She was not needed. And I and I completely understood that but it was just you know they were joyful absolutely joyful had a great time out Betty White was miraculously and I I learned from her. That and this may be common knowledge. You might have set it on a talk. Show or something that every birthday. When she was married to Allen Ludden he would give her a Cadillac and so every day is she would arrive at the studio in a different Cadillac. Well not just one cat. I know this wonderful absolutely wonderful. Now that episodes also known for being the one where looked at the end. Burt Reynolds makes us surprise. Cameo were you there on the day he shut up you not working. That day wasn't working that day but I knew he'd be there. I had met. Kirk riddles somewhere sometime. I was interested in this theater theater at one point in Florida and I was interested in studying Or or Boeing there so I I don't know if I met him in person. I just reached out to him my resume and email. I think that might have been it. But no I was not there on that day in terms of acting. Were there any other actors or actresses that inspired you especially early on your career to pursue this craft Knew in particular Run is why one of the unsung heroes of the the stage. Not only what you know. I mean superfly flung him to superstardom but here was a man that was so inspired in his craft I love to Dedication He was also very into the classics. Which is something that he did not or most of us do not get an opportunity to show and that inspired me to always look outside of what I appears to be. Ron O'Neal was a real working man's actor. Did you ever chance to work with him? No I didn't. I met him years ago when I was in New York. It's still moderate at the time And that's where I'm at a lot of people are who became household names New York extraordinary growing experience for me and I knew him but I never got the opportunity to work with him. That's unfortunate but I'm going to move ahead to nineteen eighty six for a quickie here where you did get to meet a lot of real few big names and a few up commerce at the time and that was when you were part of the Redd Foxx show. You had the pleasure of working with Red Fox with Sindbad Beverly Todd. Very Young. Pamela Adlon even with Vanessa Williams right. Your character was therese. I believe you're on four episodes of that one season that they did And it's a great show. People can track down. It's actually on Youtube. Do a little digging. You can find it but I just WanNa ask what your experience like being on that show and working with all these great. Comedians especially Red Fox master was a master comedian. No he was master life. Let me put it that way. He was utter stand a craftsperson and I was just glued to I mean once a day this timing once a day his writing once a day because that just came out naturally That were usually incorporated into what we were doing and It was it was I was in awe because of this this rock cutting edge talent that has always been there always been aware again and the different John that working and we love the His show his original show The Red box show but this was Amazing to be there and send. Dad is just getting started was wonderful. I see him often on now and We're still locked in because of that. experienced. Now Beverly Todd. I've known for very long time Her husband at one point an ex husband I should say was one of my teachers that the Inner City Cultural Center. So that's how we met there. But I always been aware of Bruce Work and always admired her and we became good sense Not that we hung out together anything but we were. We were in the same spaces all the time. She was a part of a group that had a I believe I can't remember the name of it but around the holidays. The Christmas holiday in particular she and the weather a lot of other well-known women of the screen would debit together and put soup. Get so I knew I was once a year and I haven't seen her lately though but That was a wonderful opportunity and it seemed like everybody had a lot of fun on that show with you. I'm curious learn a little bit more about Red Fox and what it was like being just that coast him be able to work with him. What was that experience like File how do I I? I don't know that I have a word for it. It wasn't amazing experience. Because he would come over and he would just stood things in my ear as to where this character was really coming from He shared some things About timing out sharing them without making it a teaching or anything like that but he was he was amazing. He was a very opening and honest and giving individual so I just took it out and carry the with me and was all the bedrooms court up until that point. I'm kind of curious about your career. Did you find it difficult to find work as a woman of color to this day? Even did you find yourself like typecast or put into roles? That really weren't that great for what you could do. Well I was typecast because of being a woman of color and because of being a woman of color and not fitting in roles of that time I mean they're very specific goals that were very specific images that were being shown at that time. They still are but not as old as they were. So yeah which is why it took to the stage. I've always been a part of the stage That's always been my go-to when I wanted to express something outside of who? I looked like what I was. Thought of I went to the stage and got the opportunity and made the opportunity of performing all sorts of characters but fulfill them and TV. Yes absolutely. It's very difficult now. We're going definitely chat a little bit more about some of Your Theater. Experience closer to the end of this interview here. But there's one last thing discuss before we move into star Trek and that's a movie you did in one thousand one called all the marbles. This is a really neat Ville. You remember that 'cause I forget I remember our so just for our listeners. Who Don't know what this movie is. This was a comedy starring. Peter Falk. He's the manager of a women's pro wrestling tag team. They're played by Vicki. Frederick and Laureen Landon dossier got burt young in it. Who I love seeing everything he does and you played One of the wrestlers from the main event of the film. You're one half the Tigers. Your other tag team partner was played by Tracy Reed and you guys are managed by the late John. Hancock also an actor who appeared in next Gen You get to wrestle in basically the centerpiece of the film. That the big finale of the film. Twenty Minute Long Match. You guys are working. You guys are taking bumps. You're doing flying moves you guys are. Actually wrestling are really fast paced match. So I think the first question about that is who trained. You guys to compete. Because that's what they're doing stunts correct. That's correct way trained by the teachers of the first woman wrestling champion. Her name was mildred. Burke and maybe had a studio out Thinking about the Valley. And that's where we would train every day for what seems like mom but they trained as and it was. Oh my gosh. It was inexperienced that I will never forget. I never thought that I would wear high heels again bodies with boosting battered and we really hit that that so yeah back for teachers trained us. That's impressive. Yeah and again you guys. Who are listening to track down that seen it is out there available to look if you can dig for it It's just tremendous to watch because you guys are really working though. It's an intense fast long match and one thing I'd like to stay is out director. He's passed on now and tell me his name Director producer said that he wanted Actors to learn to wrestle as opposed to a wrestler coming in and trying to at and so what he did was gathered like twelve us that will train and Tracy and I came out to be the Toledo Tigers by the way was Robert Aldrich. He also directed yard our happened to pay a lot of really great pieces absolutely and he was a huge fan. I did not so. That's how that came about. Yeah that's exactly how it came about. He was a huge fan and were you wrestling fan at all. I used to watch it when I was a kid growing up. My mom loves it and then all of a sudden I stopped watching it I went. Oh man this is not real. I beg to differ. You must be an athlete. You must be. You must have stamina that you must know how to take those falls and take those makes them. Safety was great at the Punch and I was great at the kick for back how they trained us. They said you know they worked with our weaknesses were without strength. But you're absolutely right. That was a grueling that was grooming match And I look back now and I am really proud of the work because it is authentic. Absolutely I mean if you weren't acting I could've seen you easily had career in pro wrestling because you were that good. It was very impressive. Well I was asked to go on the road but I couldn't walk. It took it actually took years to heal and There is a photograph that was taken. And then you may be able to see the still to win that last match and we're coming in the wall made up and dressed up and we're miss mean. Joe Greene and I have a pong is hanging down in front of my knee. My meeting When when you're when you're talk to fall you take the bait on the bottom of your feet and your shoulders. Well wait was so intense that it began to affect my me and my knee was like three times size but this amazing I so no I could not go out on the road and said I need to you to heal and But it was started students and thank you by the way. Thank you thank you from my heart as a giant pro wrestling fan And the fact that you got to work with mildred burqas. Well I mean that's that's not living anymore about the time living legend. I mean that's amazing. Right as I said when I look back I went. Oh my goodness if I never do another thing in this industry I'm satisfied. I've done some wonderful things not a household name but that's okay the experience. What makes your whole person? And I'm very happy about those untold will return momentarily untold is brought to you by triple fiction production. If you're a star Trek 'cause player looking for props for tweak lecter looking spice up your shelves triple fiction. Productions has covered triple fiction productions produces affordable and unique three D. printed trek inspired products from the original series next generation deep space nine voyager enterprise and the movies. You can expect the same amount of care and attention to detail in any of the items in their catalog whether it's appropriate for use in a banfield or part of a cost play or accessories in place for figures from playmates meadows diamond. Select own your very own. Try Quarter or phaser rifle with working lights the bridge of the enterprise e for your playmates figures or any other item countless species ships from the Star Trek Universe. All products are three D. printed in the USA and are constantly evolving and improving based on fan feedback to learn more about their products. Visit them at triple dash fiction productions dot net or on facebook at facebook dot com slash triple fiction productions triple fiction productions taking star Trek. Were no three. D. Printer has gone before everybody should go through without jealousies. And I'm Alexis. Aim McCoy over. We are more than just a podcast. We are culture cat. Yes and you'd be. Check US out every single Saturday. With a brand new episode with eligible items. I heard your spotify and Google play. Catch us on our homepage at raikes. Networks DOT COM and. Don't forget to follow us on instagram. At underscore communist over does right and as always speak up. Speak Out and leave your ego at the door me now return to truck untold. All right now. I think its time. What's into your Star Trek appearance and that was season one of Star Trek next generation. You on episode twenty five which was titled Conspiracy From Nineteen Eighty Eight. So tell us how did you get cast for this star Trek Next Generation? Well I auditioned and N. G. M. at the time that we've just They were working on the engine lot and it was the regular or just this and I went in there with the the silent prayer. The silent wish okay. I am a lifelong trekker. Would be so great to be able for a separate to do a part on I check and that's all I remember it but it was through the regular addition process. I don't remember I don't recall my agent at the time but she said and I was at the that day that my name was called. And that led you down the past to become captain. Trials Scott who according to the episode was the fastest made captain in starfleet history. Now did they give you much information about her to work from now that all I know and I had questions that at the at that time but it was up to me. It was my interpretation of from. She was and so. That's that's my claim to sing that. She does and the youngest came up. No not the youngest so much but she came out of stock to command ahead of John Picard event. Something I've heard from other actors who've done star Trek is they were told a little bit flatter that the aliens could be more expressive any. And if he's a direction that you received. I'm not sure I don't remember you. Given any instructions on ways at starfleet officer should act or anything like that yes and and I don't remember the exact direction backlift but I took it as though I was in some form of the service the armed forces you know that would be my equivalent of being a captain on stock in command and that was the closest thing. Come to all my uncles were in. The branches of the service is moving. Maybe and I would you know have been in their company all my life. So that's where my lead from and just try to translate it to being in space and again that kind of calls back to you talking earlier about taking things from within you and then put them out onto the screen. Jeff Yes yes. It's called that you know it. It's that experience that we have and go back as you recall it and it's there for you. It serves you well to pay attention to all of your experiences and not negate anything. Because you never know where you're going to have to pull you mentioned cliff. Bole who was the director of this episode and Trek Fans? Remember him Since he directed over forty episodes of Star Trek shows He also is the man that they named the bullion race. After who was actually a character that appeared in this episode of the First Time? Well so this was his episode to direct. And I've I've heard some interesting things about bowl before I've heard. That bowl is actually one of the directors who talked down to will wheaton onset I want to get a little more about your experience with cliffs direct experience. I can't remember anything outside of him telling me Giving him giving his insight on the back ground she bars and it was no more than what I stayed. And so we're just up to me to interpret it. He was a very generous Director what he wanted you know and of course on the TV set time is always the acid so there was no playing around. There was no like in theater. It's a give and take sometimes you can walk away and come back and do the things differently the way you you see them but It's just take for it. Takes shoot but he was he was doing obviously because he'd been there for As you said before forty code and We had a great working relationship is all I can boil it down to now. He tell us a little bit about what it was like being on set. Because you're did our very interesting set pieces. The first part was a mine shaft with very heavy red lighting on it. And then the other seen you're at starfleet command which is again very very different totally and just the appearance of it so you tell us a little bit about what it was like this being on those sets the shoot schedule and what those days onset working we're like. I know that that was just happy to be in the play and To be working with those of the actors that I was surrounded with an absolutely to meet John the car or my goodness that was I. I don't know about like surreal because I see him in so many I mean. He's just a master at his crap and went on to become an even greater master actress craft so to be in. That room was very fortunate. it's very it's not. How can I say this was he? Was He was proud. I mean he just what you see is a proud and it was just magnificent to be in the room You know. Tv is what it is you. We could change Backgrounds at the drop of a hat and I been there you know. Been on other teams and bad amazement. Never that Part of the industry never ceases to me but people behind the scenes. The people that are doing those set him up and take them down and turn them around and making them in something different In in the blink of an eye so but that's always fascinating to me. You know the craft is sometimes overlooked but is so necessary but the game. I had a great time. And as you said Patrick Stewart. He is the consummate pro and being someone. That's involved in Shakespearean theater as well. I mean you guys must have hit it off and same with Jonathan Frakes. A tremendous actor. Do you remember any interactions. You had with either Patrick or Jonathan frakes. So my memory. My memory fails me at the moment. I know that between takes we had you know Chitchat. you know me introducing myself to him but that is all I remember. I don't remember in detail Chitchat that we had. I'm pretty sure you're going to remember this park. This is probably the most notable section of the episode of just towards the end when the bad guys basically revealing themselves as being taken over by an alien inside them and all the characters are now eating worms. Do you remember. Eat Worms that episode. Because that was the thing you had to do. Oh I remember vividly the show and the reason I say that is because they appear to be worms grubs but it was actually delicious pasta and it was. It was set in that little dish that I'm out of once again. The crafts people behind the scenes. They They made this little dish with a motor underneath. And it moved so it made it look like the Pasta in it or the grubs or the worms and moving around and so very very easy to To to enjoy eating the words because it was pasta Very good to hear you weren't eating actual meal worms that's a relief Oh no no no no. There's another part of this two. Were once you get phased you fall down the floor and you got the parasite. Come out of your mouth. I'm not too interested in the parasite part but what I am interested in was when you take that fall after you've been blasted by Picard and Reicher. Was that you and the fall since you've got this now experience from being all the marbles or was that a stunt person yes yes I did. And it wasn't a tall either active over. Marbles hat was easy as pie. Yeah they call me exactly what they wanted they gave me. The outline is just long and of course took every precaution that I did. Not you know cab an injury or or hurt myself but that was an easy fall for me after all the marbles prepared me well see I talked with a lot of stunt performers and they tell me you know a lot of times utility wwl even step in for an Acura being splashed with a glass of water. Not even taking anything real physical. So it's great to hear you actually take your bumps. Yes yes I have so. I want to ask if you actually watch the episode when it first aired and the reason I'm asking is because this episode is really known for its ending. Because it's a very gory very non star. Trek ending basically phaser an alien to the point that it explodes violent. Bloody Mess so did you actually watch that. When it first aired you know have a habit. It's very interesting I. I don't know I haven't come to terms with this is about a better at it and what that is is that I don't particularly like watching myself on the small screen or the big screen so I did not watch it right away. I do call watching it later on Months had gone by and and I took a look at it and I went. Yeah I didn't. It was very. I mean I read it reading in the script as one thing but seeing it happen and and and I have to agree. I've never heard it put into terms that way but it was unlikely star check in but I guess they weren't make sure those little aliens Medicaid that I don't know but I did see it and I continue to watch it now because I see different things Every time I watched something I see something different into something differently that might have done. But that's in the past. I can't change but yes I have watched it and I've seen it many times now. So that was your adventure as Captain Trial Scott. But I'm curious if you ever got called back to the other roles or had interested in appearing another star Trek shows. Oh I would I would have been there in a moment. That did not occur yet. Is the keyword excellent now. Did you find that after you appeared on Star Trek? Were jobs easier to get or harder to get because you did this fi show. Oh they were not easier to get and I have a part of my my being is. I'm a chameleon can change one strand on my hair and I look completely different so when I'm out or this name or was auditioning I never looked for saying I think the voice may the same stature. Yes of course but it was not relatable until years later that people you could put those two things together and so no it. It definitely did not make it easier. So after Star Trek you continue on with your career. You get to do a episode. How's your grace under fire? And since you brought up comedy we're going to talk about your appearance on Seinfeld. Got TO BE UPSET. A seinfeld in their last season and that episodes called the burning for you played Dr Wexler. And you've got to work directly with Michael Richards Bryan Poston and Danny would burn as these characters go to a medical school to act out symptoms of diseases for medical students to practice diagnosing and As well as that senior got to work with Daniel Day Kim really before he got his known as he is today but What what was it like being on set with Michael Richards and being able to work on Seinfeld? Were you a fan of the show at the time? I was out the box crazy unless the date. I'M GONNA use it was. It was absolutely surreal. You know to see the master craftsmen go at their work and be just as funny in person as they are on film onto the I it was joy. It was just joyful. When I'm doing my work I am in my my my my happy place and I'm in my safe space then and I come prepared and I'm ready to work. And that's what it was you know and to be a in the room with all these. Nafta artist. Dan I scrape. It was just wonderful. I don't know how else to explain it. And and Jerry site though he just such a low q quite character. You know I don't know I can't explain anymore. Matthew I'm smiling now because the experience it was just a great experience. I I've been fortunate enough to really liked being there. I was good bad indifferent What was going on around me. I knew what my purpose was and it was great to interact with on being in the evenings cheese and bring my stuff to it and we make we make it work. Just watched the episode yesterday and I. I'm just trying to imagine you onset keeping a straight face while Michael Richards it's Panama having having gonorrhea and then having all this other stuff has I mean what were you able to actually keep a straight face throughout the entire take No I would Turn away and then. I had that clipboard. In my hand I'd be behind the clipboard cracking up but we we we. We got to it because the camera wasn't on me most of the time when I was had a that was that afforded me the opportunity to use that clipboard. Enter just yeah next tech. It was not. It was not easy at all. He is guy well. Let's miss for a little bit now to twenty eleven. And you're in a movie called Flit streets which you're starring alongside very talented Harry Shearer. I just a little bit of background for our listeners. What this is about Harry had been living in New Orleans since the end of the eighties and he became a very outspoken advocate in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina that. Let's make the documentary called the big easy which was all about Jala. Hurricane Katrina had affected the people in Louisiana and Then he went onto make flood streets starring and executive producer of that film which you were cast in and It's really tremendous dramatic role. He talked a little bit about that film. What attracted you to be part of it. Well what attracted me was that I was actually living in New Orleans at the time I was in Baton Rouge and I got a call from the agent that What's working with me there in the southeast at that time and I went out and When I read the script I went. There is such a poignant piece. This The event itself was so tragic and to be able to use The creativity and talent that I've been given to individualize to make this real for myself. I did not have anyone. That was a part of it but being there being on the streets walking into that house that this character Linden seeing the watermark it just broke my heart and Could feel energy of the devastation that had taken place there and so it was more than motivation to delve into that character and this is a character of substantial depth even though she not on camera that launched essential character but she was an integral character because it spoke volumes for all those people that ended up in that position and we might not know Know about so. I was very very pleased to be able to be there and to do that kind of work. And as we're discussing this I can almost hear your voice Kind of a change in you that now there were discussing this movie and out affect you directly as well so again. We're going back to that internal becoming external. What part of yourself did you put into that character and flood streets. That's a good question and I should add especially for folks who haven't seen this movie. It's a real great ensemble piece. Also everybody's really really great performances all around and I think people know you especially just from Star Trek. This is a great look at what you can do with your bills. More saw on next generation and in what into answer your question. The only word that's coming up for me is remote. I have Part of me that becomes very silent and very remote and I think that part of me served me well by being able to drudge up. Those vary deep feelings That apply and it moves me to a place of Deeper understanding in a deeper connection Even though I was not there at that I too am a part of this so it. It's the remote spaces in the can go in and just become very quiet and very still and allow energies elements to speak through me Yes I know. It's hard to explain the good. Do that much. Understand what experience like yeah to speak food character. That character gave me opportunity to you to use the remote part of Hawaii. So I'd like to follow that up with another dramatic performance. He did more recently. Actually that's a film called all or nothing and it's based on a true story. I tell our audience what that movies about. And just how how much of yourself again was in that role because that's like another very personal kind of film for You. Yeah it's very personal Of course we see this this this subject matter has been done over and over and over again what I mean by. That is the enslaved people of this country When we think of enslavement we normally think of the South. But this was an eye opener and based on a real story These are people twenty one. It If you want to look up the incident it's called the escape of the twenty one and this happened in mid America so and we traveled to that area. We shot in Detroit and Chicago and not Chicago Detroit yes Detroit and Chicago and One of the place that we were in as well and to Go through that experience Hardwood wrenching You've got the opportunity to the these actually shot are the beautiful spaces that were anticipation that that that were that had people inflated floyd on them and so that energy is still there and Well the director I worked with him many times before as a student here. I did a lot of the students films when he was studying. L. ACC and so he when he called me to do this he actually wrote me and the wife of one of the real life characters. My character is a fictional character but she represents all the stories of the women who were there and we don't hear from and so that was my motivation To shine the light on these women have had this experience. And you don't really feel about. I'm hoping you could shed some insight also as a performer. Then you're talking about these experiences. It takes clearly a lot of mental and emotional toll on herself. Venos- environments to be in these plantations. Even imagined. Even being in costume onset for this type of film just takes a lot of toll on yourself so as a performer. What do you do to handle all this weight? Put on you you know. I think I'm league since I came here. I think we I and I said this earlier. We all come here with something to do. I have always been very mad ache and deeply silent. I did not know why that was but that is what serves me. That serves me very well. I've always been a reader so I'm now the research part of it and in no matter what that character is on the page I always research and then I take that research into by matching nation and all these things serve me in connecting with that character. But I don't have to live with it once I'm done. You know I can go into it and they can come out of it and these elements of me I've always been connected with the sadness of WHO I am. I would cry at the drop of a hat. I remember my mother staying. She's walked through the room and my sister. My young sister and I are watching TV. We're both sitting there crying because it's been a TV commercial. I'm easily moved to tears. Not that I weep all the time but when it comes I allow it to happen and so I think that was one of the piece. This takes me back to my mentor. Milton. Pat Selous introduced me to the universal principle. A the art of being the art of allowing you cannot be unless you allow these things to come through so without putting dampers on it without putting filters on it I am just there and I allow it to come through and that takes me sometimes places that I never thought I would go but I love it. I love doing able to connect in that way and I just want to add on top as well something. I've noticed now. They've gotten to look at a lot of your work. That isn't just star. Trek found that in all the roles you play even the comedic ones. There's like this quiet strength and pride to everything that you do. What would you attribute to that sort of inner strength? You portraying all of your roles on college. The women's like I was raised in a household of women. Women women my grandfather was there. My uncles were there but not all the time I grant. I grew up with in my grandfather's house so he was a mainstay but so rounded the were women. I call the women in white because on Sunday. These women were dressed up in their whites and they would do whatever was necessary to do in the community whether it was healing whether it was going to see sick whether it's feeding nurturing Take birthing of those things. Should that to the women. I grew up being surrounded by I think that seeing that energy I call them substantial. They worked with everything they had. They bought everything their head they had and I think that's part of it. And then one of my other favorite people is Robert Deniro and happened to be in your presence at one time and he was very quiet and very reserved very pool. That and later I heard him say in an interview that he is not outgoing. Shy and I think most of us who walk around with this this this powerhouse with energy very reserved and very quote shy As a matter of fact Scott took me. I thought this about me. He says I'm wondering when you're going to stop being so shy but that's my reserve. Is that what you just said Yeah but it's the surroundings I grew up in time that I grew up and be investment and the community investment in the family. At that time I believe is what contributed. I think this is one of the things I like doing about this. Podcast is that I get to kind of see the full circle journey of my guests and this case here. We're seeing now the where you pull this inner strength from as a young person and now where we are today in some of the more recent work. You're doing it as an educator Which involves the mythical figure of California? So I'd like you to kind of tell. Tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing to bring more attention to Colossians for our listeners. Don't know who is this person. Well they say that she's a bit but for me. This is only based on a cultural. An oral cultural history. Columbia is the name of the Warrior General that the State of California is named for so. I have been researching her for years. When I was at when I was studying at the Inner City Cultural Center. I got an opportunity to work with the director of that place. Its name was c Bernard Jackson and he wrote a piece called piano box. And that was this character called Susan Coffee but formation came through a that play and it was so intriguing for me. I started researching because I didn't know anything about it and she's taught about in schools and most people don't know a lot about her And so I've been researching and research and the word co Lafia is not who she is. It is a title so these are women who lead their people into war into into a government. They were the Go-to it is the power of the community and it's the title at. They carry now what I had been doing. Is I've been doing lots of readings with her. I had I've written some pieces and I presented her readers theater. I'm trying to figure out now how to continue with it. And I believe it's going to be so a mix of culture and history and spoken word and poetry. I love to dance and so that I bring that element as as well because I found out when a lot of warriors go into battle they. I write a letter to their family case. They don't come back and they burn that that's ritual to me and I love which will They then it's like and and that was a lie that got me it's like body black and streaming and dancing into battle and so I- dance on the stage into battle and Such a powerful powerful Energy that is I have done it for adults. I do it For young people as well and the young people are so engaged because they see all elements coming together and they can see themselves on that stage and that gives me the most That that gives me the impetus to really move forward is into emily. Lightning them of this unknown on Song. History that nobody talks about and not believe that if my mission she's not the only one there are many characters out there of color many women characters of color that I love to breathe life into and bring them forward so I'm putting together but things that I've written and hopefully have a piece. Maybe an hour long that I can start presenting a game. I look forward to that and hopefully torn come my way in New York. I'd love to be able to see it. Oh I'd love to do that. Thank you so I understand. Also that you've got a really very big love with Billie holiday. You've done some work with her as a character like he tell us a little bit about the performances that you've done about Billie holiday yes It was a A juicy a Christmas celebration where or would be wonderful entity that we know of the Billy Eckstein Syrup funds are Billie holiday. Would gather at this place. It's based on real life. They would come to this particular restaurant and they will perform you know for the been overseas for the people in the neighborhood and the whole number and I got a great opportunity Using my voice and singing not one but two Billie holiday songs I also more research into her and found out that not only was she what history says she was but she was also an activist. And there's a book that I'm reading now and I'd love to be able to work on that aspect of her in a one person show so It was amazing. Amazing amazing and I was of course very timid to step into those shoes because my voice is my singing voice was not something. I use a lot outside of my shower but the more I did it. Why was able to connect with the music to connect with the words and it became very presentable. And so I'm proud of that work and you mentioned that really. Holly was an activist and a lot of the people of Color who entertainers in the forties fifties sixties. They were all many of them. Were very invested in a Lotta politics at a time. When we had the civil rights movement going on so were there any other performers that really had an impact on you growing up during that era that looked at being on stage and screen but also saw them and their activism Horn Us Mode Harry Belafonte Sidney Poitier. Yeah they were all activists As well as limiting their time and talent and the money to causes and opening continuing to open those doors through which I may able to walk There's so many more of them Whose names are but those are the ones that on top of my head. Right now And Billy One more thing about billy holiday. The phone that she made so phenomenal. Strange fruit was actually written at a point. I and at and the began and it morphed into a protest song so when that song when I hear it I have a whole nother take on it now. It's not just a beautiful moving piece of music that that highlights horrendous time in all history but it has a double mean you know it. Is it here in this Jazz John? But it's also very historical and it is a part of Activism. So aside from your work doing that right now what else is Bryant? Doing Twenty twenty. Well I have always been teaching artists and I started many years ago in the city of For the city I actually worked for the city of Los Angeles and I began teaching Through summer arts camp and after school programs and then moved into administration and right now the city has a program that I'm involved with it is now online virtual and then they are certifying the teaching artists for the city of Los Angeles and going through that course and beyond that I do work for the city of Los Angeles in A venue called the Madrid theater in in the valley Before that I spent six years at the Vision Theater in Lamar Park where I actually ran. The House and Was able to afford opportunities to that area of Los Angeles where they came in writers producers directors and we were able to give them a space to explore their work in their talent. So I love the background of the business. I love the business of the business but my passion is the performance art. I I had a class. I have class of Elders that are so wise and so talented and there's not really a continual space for them to perform so they got the opportunity to work on all of that and bring forth that creativity through the class and through a lot of the readers. Peter's projects that I've been involved with so I'm this class that I'm taking is so wonderful. It's been to me up to date with what's actually going on in the teaching artist world and so it's only enriching me so that I can go back to that class and take this information to them. So we can broaden that scope and bring bird energy and very motion their talent and put it out there and so. That's what I'm doing now. All right now. I'm sitting at my window in my living room working remotely from home so thank you so much for being on the show. I have one last question for you. And that's what is the best thing about being a part of the Star Trek Universe. Oh there's so many things but I'm going to bring this up because lately it is increased. It is fans because of Scott Ray and his stick to witness I was able to do my first signing convention the fans. I incredible they know. Captain Try to Scott. They know her dialogue. They follow her. I continue to get fan mail from all over the world and that makes me feel that the drop in the bucket that I was able to contribute to this nano and it just so many people and it's the gift that keeps giving their incredible all right well wrestling Bryant. Thank you so much for your time. And to captain trial. Scott thank you for your service with starfleet. We really appreciate your time today. And thanks for chatting with us about your entire career and everything you've been doing before after Enduring Times. Thank you Matthews a pleasure. I want to thank you for joining us and sharing so many great stories with us as we mentioned earlier. The episode of Next Generation that first appeared in one with quite a bit of controversy attached to a conspiracy first aired in the UK. Several minutes the show were censored specifically the ramic being blown up when the episode aired in Canada. It came to the viewer discretion warning as for those evil little parasites. They were teased at the end of the to a greater threat and that they would return but they never did come back to stop any trouble again at least not in the TV series. They did make a comeback in DC comics next generation issue from Nineteen ninety-two written by prolific trek author Michael Jan Friedman where the aliens were revealed to be called the Anglo to. They returned once more in a short story from the lives of Dax theology novel in Nineteen Ninety nine which tied them into a much bigger story. Arc THAT FRANKLY. We need to talk about that. So thank you for listening to this week's episode of Trek Untold. If you haven't already please subscribe to the show and if you can leave her view and rating we'd appreciate it very much. You can also follow us on social media just look for trek untold on facebook twitter and instagram. We'd love to hear from you. Let us know what you think about the show. If you'd like to support this podcast checkout Patriot dot com slash trek untold. Learn how you can keep our ship already. Full power once again. Thank you to our sponsor triple fiction productions and shut up to Scott Ray for setting up this interview. If you like the book this week's guest for a convention appearance or autograph signing eventual. Or anything else. You can email Scott at Scott rate sixty seven at AOL DOT COM this has been trek untold. I Matthew Kaplowitz until next time. Fortune favors the bold.

New York director Captain Trial Scott John Picard Los Angeles wrestling Your Theater starfleet US Washington Bryant facebook Red Fox Matthew Kaplowitz Kirk Inner City Cultural Center Beverly Todd Patrick Stewart Tracy Reed
Thirst Aid Kit: TAK Takes Sundance

Slate's Culture Gabfest

54:46 min | 1 year ago

Thirst Aid Kit: TAK Takes Sundance

"The all right. Wow Wow look you coming thanks for coming. It's very cold. So thank you for coming outside. And that's the function of Sundance. But it's it's bloody cold. I don't know how you do it. How do people live here? Maybe the money helps. That's right Nicole how you doing I am Oh good just talking about it's cold. I'm a little hot right now but you know I think I'll call down a little bit but I'm good. How are you? I'm sweating like a pig farm but I'm also so I'm happy to be here. That's partly what this is. I'm kind of nervous. It's my first time at Sundance. Nicole Sundowns is this anyone else thank you. You don't want to push it but I was applause. Is anyone else hip for the first time. Oh good oh good. We're going to be crowded together. Uh We're all moving. Don't worry about it it's going to be beautiful okay. We are very excited to be here. I am I didn't want me and I'm Nicole Perkins and we we are I say kid time ahead of us and we're going to get the show on the road and Nicole but before we do that we do want to give a special shout out to our sponsor this evening sound effects. We have been having such a great time here at Sundance and we wanted to give you a little message from our sponsor dropbox. You've probably used dropbox at some point while working on a project or maybe just a share our store files but did you know that dropbox is also a great tool for collaboration at work. For All kinds of of teams this year dropbox honoring the crews of makeup artists grips production designers and so many others that worked tirelessly to make great films. Possible you can learn more about how your team can use dropbox to bring great ideas to live at dropbox dot com slash film. So if you're unfamiliar with their steak Kit. We usually kick things off with a little segment. We like to call redacted okay. That's when one of US tells a little story three key. Words are bleeped out so that you can add your own intrigue to the story right if you've held the show before you know that we normally use very generic FCC FCC beep today though. I'm going to be the BEEP. I'M GONNA be a human beep and it's going to sound something like this hold on. Are you ready for the beat. Okay so instead of the little that we normally have in place you're going to hear live and direct people. I'm an old bicycle. So this is Nicole is going to do us. Illiterate acted about one of our guests today. Mr Daniel Day Kim Daniel puts the in my hand. Oh it's heavy I say he replies. I thought you liked thick. Oh so you can take your time and slowly. Oh I do fill in the blanks. You know you can make it as chase or as dirty as you like I love redacted. It's the silliest thing we do every single week all right okay. So our first guest is a man so strikingly beautiful he can stop actual traffic. He's seen it. You've seen it. We've seen him as Jiuquan on Lost Chin Ho Kelly on Hawaii five o Brandon Choi and always be my baby be and soon. We'll see him as Dr Michael Own Asuka in blast beat which premieres this weekend here at Sundance. Everyone let's welcome Daniel on your day. Kim In that sound effect is impressive. Thank you so much. I really thought that was one of those horns. I went to university to study that well done. Uh well thank you well again. Welcome thank you so much for joining us here. Yeah so you're here. This weekend to showcase is blast. Beat which were already able to see and it was a privilege to get to see that film. You're seeing it. I haven't seen it yet. None of our cats excellent excellent special events. Why don't you get on level? We've seen it. Yeah right when you tell me what it's about that's what we're going to ask you about. We've seen it. We know it's about two brothers. Can you expand a little bit about what the story is and how it came to you. Assure the story centers around Two brothers and a family. Originally from Columbia they immigrate to the United States They the two kids are teenagers. Who Love heavy metal and They enroll enrolling high school. Life seems to be going pretty well and then they find out that their immigration attorney is a fraud so they are in the country illegally. so it is a story about family. It's a story about immigrants at the story about the issue of immigration It's a story about love. I I play a professor at a local university who befriends One of the teenagers who happens to be a heavy metal loving science prodigy who wants to become a NASA scientist so a plays on a lot of preconceptions preconceived notions we have about immigrants and and and not only that but people who love heavy metal. Because you see these dudes and they have really long hair. And you think there's no way that these are brainiacs the brainiacs that they are but they're other students and I play someone who happily gets to help one of them yet and so obviously you're acting in the film but you also serve as executive producer. What was it about blast? Beat that made you feel like you had to be a part of this project. I'm an immigrant I was born in. I was born in Korea and I came over to the states when I was young and I remember To try and assimilate and become American. And I'm very proud of being American arrogant but this story was specifically about Colombians. In this case. But it's a universal story anyone who has the experience of feeling like an outsider or like they don't belong long and are trying to make a home for themselves thousands of miles away from everything that they know so I could relate to that and I really loved the fact that it's very personal story. The writer and director was working on it for many many years started as a short film so the passion for the story story to get made was was really impressive and You know I've been around a minute so you know I've I've I've done jobs for different reasons but you know one of the reasons that that I've stayed in. This business is to be able to choose the kinds of jobs that I want to do. And I WANNA be proud of this the work that I do and this the job. I'm definitely proud of beautiful film. You should be proud of it now. If you notice what you'll walk on music was shall We dance from the king and I. I didn't notice what things were pointing that out. Happy to so you start in the king and I at Lincoln Center Theater back in two thousand sixteen and that was your Broadway debut and we actually have a clip from the show all my okay. So this is your life was was three at Music Chaffee Goo three one-two-three night and meet with all the John's when the last two star has left the sky shall we again. Showed you roll long long understanding that. This kind of thing Charlie dots. I don't know what you go while while you were watching that clip. I got a lot of things I just wanted wants to be clear. Did y'all see Daniels amazing posture. As he was dancing because he was moving around the stage. I do not blush easily. I will tell you it's like it's like ninety degrees in obviously in blast. Beat because you're a professor you're addressed you know really is where we're going to get away absolutely. Yeah with the Nice Crisp white shirts and ties. Sometimes you're in a lab coat and and that's that's very hot. I just want you like that. Look noted noted that keep that in mind. Don't ever forget it. I just want that'd be cool. I'm so sorry to make you blush but I'm not sometimes sports have to come out and the thing is. I watched that clip and I was like I should take up musical goal theater. I should do that so thank you for that yet but for many people lost was the first time that they were introduced to you and I wonder on lost. You were a part of a group of survivors from a plane wreck your character kind of the same outfit throughout the that's for sure there. It is a season's worth of outfit and we weren't really given the Opportunities Unity's to lust after Jin same way that we were given to look at Sawyer in a lot. He's a good looking dude. No no shade to ashes to him but also I can get a mirror like it's not as though he had the monopoly on hold this. I'm just saying I want when I was allergic to shirts. ETEs but as your career has gone on notice that you've kind of leaned into being you know someone that we all want to keep looking at and having on our screen so you kind of been growing into thirst was that accidental accidental. I I ah I will tell you that it's not on purpose but on the TV show throws working on after loss to I five. Oh you know we're in Hawaii and so the weather's is beautiful. There's going to be swimsuit. Shot Surfing shots. And so naturally shirtless shots. Did you feel self conscious about this. Of course unless like ten million people watching you without a shirt on you know and that was the most subtle flex ten million people just ten million a casual ten billion watching me without my shed. Its its bite it. Yeah well anyway so yeah no. It's a little nerve racking and even if even even if you think you're not vain about it there's always someone to tell you you look great and you're not even thinking about it and as soon as someone says something you're you automatically start thinking about it so then the makeup department will slowly ask you. Do you want any like shading Giannini contouring. I was like I didn't think I needed and even you you know so. It's a whole thing but you can't take it too seriously. Do you feel more confident now. In your body or in your appearance now that you have to be kind of Komo exposed in your career. I think I just feel more confident because I'm older I just ignition. Yeah Yeah shout out to all the older people in the know it's true. I think there's a wisdom that comes with Age and there's a kind of a comfort your own skin and I definitely feel those things Then you know with any luck I'll be able to continue doing in what I do for a while. And and hopefully gain a little more wisdom along the way what a diplomatic wiser answer so we saw we went to see always be my. Maybe we invited out by Netflix. Go Watch it on the big screen. which is how you should watch old movies but whereas dance yeah bill all right but we saw maybe speaking of being confident and feeling more a wider wardrobe and either put you in a bunch of suits? Maybe the on the red carpet. Even when you're home you kind of like put together and one of my favorite looks in the whole movie is when they put you in that buff colored Adidas tracksuit the one remember that trucks is a couple of people remember. Yeah 'cause they did. And the thing is brandon. The character you played. I say this with the ultimate respect is a bit of Dick. He's like this high-powered new age California self-obsessed kind of self centered and awful. But I just wanted to say I understood why Sasha was gonNA marry him anyway. We have a clip from that clip. Hey what do you think about this for the flowers for the wedding all do for black flowers what I did for fish sauce ice cream. Good I just want to be a boring ride. Oh you know let's spice it up. We'll talk to you about something sure what's up. I've been thinking about this a lot and if it's cool with you I'd like to postpone the wedding. It's not that I don't want to get married. I do. It's just it's just. This opportunity has come up for me to go to India with Josie Andres the chef from bizarre. Exactly he's opening up a new restaurant there and he knows about my two years in the saffron fields of Kashmir with Alice waters. See you want me to go to San Francisco alone. That's the beauty of it. We'll both be in new surroundings. We'd be part together before before entering into a lifelong commitment. I just I just want this to be right so that when we do get married he'll be best husband he can beat so in that sense. It's it's really for the both of us. Are you serious. What the hell's happening right now? My Wife said finally a role where you're yourself. My favorite thing is how he pronounces Schmear Schmidt. I always I saw him as one of those guys that would take pains to pronounce words in different languages exactly as the natives would pronounce the you. You know he's. He's quite a douchebag account. was that for you being able to flex some of your comedic skills because we don't really get to see that much of VR comedy. I was so great. You're you're absolutely right. I for whatever reason. I didn't playing serious roles for a lot of my career but I love comedy and you know especially working with people like Ali Wong and Randall Park. Who are so incredibly generous? Yeah and on a project like that I could believe in it was a pleasure to play such a Dick but you are also moving behind the camera. More youth directed an episode of Hawaii. Five O an episode. You're also an EP. The on the good doctor. And obviously you're an executive producer for blacks beat and your production company. Three is doing a lot. Are there any projects that you can tell us us about right now. Well Yeah I mean. We've we've been around for a number of years and we have a couple of projects that we just sold last week. So thank you sundance exclusive. That's right I don't want to say too much about them at the moment. But they're very much in the vein of the good doctor where we're you know there's this This theory that they're only seven stories in the world. But you know. I think that my company is trying to do is to tell them from a different perspective and one. We haven't I heard from before the good doctor center out centers around a young surgeon who is living with autism and the central question is can someone with autism be ineffective surgeon and a good friend and And this season were exploring his dating life so the projects that we're working on Also also kind of reflect a lot of similar themes excellent I look forward to seeing them. Elliott this serious the so serious we co we run. The whole gamut. Next is going to be a question on Syria. I'm kidding earlier this month on your instagram which you should to check out Daniel instagram. You should do that You posted a fight it with you on your brother when you were kids. And it's a photo of your brother dressed as Batman and you address as Superman and the caption was you said as for me Superman always and it just reminded me first of all Steve Girl saying I am beyond say they always from the office. Why not but is Ken? Slash Superman Superhero that. You would want to be all. Has An suggestion is out there. Are you interested in even a little bit in playing for example Amadeus Show Aka Hulk. ooh You know your your comic books. I was a big. I was needlessly a comic book. NERD too long. Wow I know. Luckily I discovered the Internet so I I my gaze it I loved. I haven't told anyone else. I my dad is a doctor and he was a retired doctor and he. I have bumps and bruises throughout my life because I was pretty active kid. The first time we ever had to do surgery on me was when I got up on a window sill in our apartment and as I jumped off and as I jumped off yelled superman and literally fell flat on my face on the Hardwood Floor gashed open my Chin and thankfully my dad brought out his surgery bag and stitched me up without any anaesthetic right then and there and I still have the scar. But that's how much I love. Superman Amadeus show. Oh is I can totally relate to because who doesn't have a hulk inside of them who used to be. We're all used to be in a different color so green in a no. Thanks a hey I love it. I love it so much to show. You heard if us when the time comes an EP on on the film George Come on. Let's do it together. It takes a village joke. But I'M GONNA be on sale. You will like how the hell did she get here. I'm going to bring out the video of this kind. The evidence just saying on that note I just WanNa say thank you so much for joining us this evening my pleasure. It's good to be here so much. Everybody we want to make sure audience make sure you catch blast beat when it is on a wider release and in the meantime you can find Daniel On twitter and Instagram at Daniel Day Kim. Thank you all right given up Daniel all right before we bring on next guest we have another word from US bonuses dropbox you probably use dropbox at some point while working on a project maybe just to share and store files but did you know that dropbox is also a great tool for collaboration at work for all types of teams take filmmaking for example the ultimate sports team when we see a a great film like so many of the ones here at Sundance we tend to give most of the credit to the actors and directors but it takes a team to make it behind every film. There's an army of coordinators maters technicians and designers from all around the world. And they have to stay on the same page as they work together. Behind the scenes this year drop boxes honoring the crews of makeup artists grips production designers and so many others that worked tirelessly to make our films possible. You can learn so much more about how your team can use dropbox to bring Ideas to life at dropbox dot com slash filled. Let's give it one more time for Daniel Day Kim once again for our sponsor dropbox all right. It is time to bring our second guess and we are really spoiling. You with a SMORGASBORD. Thirsty guests. Goodness you may know second. Guess from his leading man looks I showcase on. HBO Insecure. But he's also been in all your face. The Vampire Diaries House how to get away with murder. The flash the list goes on and on his new movie. Miss June team opened literally yesterday. Here at Sundance please please give him a warm. Welcome Kendrick Sampson. Everybody gets such good hug but I did it wrong Repo Bambi. She's like a really dope turns letting axe activist and she translating coalition. She runs that and she always says you have to hug heart which is so interesting because here we drive on the right side of the road. We do everything with like being right. Handed is celebrated and all this stuff but we always go to the left when we hug. It's such an interesting. I think thing you automatically go to the left. It seems so trivial. But I'm trying to I'm trying to break it. Well challenge accepted. We you will hug. Hawk Hawk hard. What how are you doing? Besides trying to get into the habit of hugging heart to heart. How are you today Dan? I'm Craig I'm listen. I'm tired I am tired. You're twenty just thinking about twenty twenty it's tiring Now but I'm also going straight from here hitting the campaign trail going to Iowa after that I'm going to New York and then I'm going to London and I'm going to Vancouver over then I'm going to New Orleans so you are booked. So is this your first time here at Sundance no came last year with A film called Bedlam One of my really good buddies Patrisse cullors who was co founder of black lives matter was one of the subjects of the film and it covered the intersection of mental health. And incarceration and how our mental health is is criminalized and oppressed. And so I was here more as a surrogate last year for that film in this year is the first year. I've had a been a film here. Right yes and that film is Miss. June teeth And we've heard really good things about it already. Can you tell us a little bit about it. Please if follows turquoise who is a former Miss June teens than if you don't know what June eighteenth is it's the celebration Didn't June nineteenth Of the win the last slaves were informed that they were free to three years after the emancipation proclamation it was they were the last slaves were in Galveston which this is right outside of where I grew up in Houston and so it is our answer to be completely frank. I grew up thinking independence. His Day was bullshit right. I was like what is this is not our freedom. So so it's a big big deal culturally in Texas as well as pageants which is a whole `nother thing in Texas. A A tank is is one of those pageants in it. Follows Turquoise who was a former Miss June eighteenth thin and has been through life and is not up to the expectations that she thought she was going to live up to or her parents or her mom or or society in general and it explores her imperfections in her Her struggle to raise her daughter her relationship with her her husband. And and just navigating through life which we don't get to see a lot of black people just being nuanced characters. They're either super perfect. Like a hidden figure or you know they did the first to do something to finally earn their their right to have their story told or they're like super demonized and criminalizing evil. And so we. We don't get a lot of those beautiful nuanced portrayal. So Nicole Bahari doesn't amazing job and Alexis it was literally her first audition And she did and she came in like the day that she found out and she was like. Are you an actor. Are you an insecure right there. Yeah like literally. She didn't like that she didn't have time to process anything. And she she she jumps right in the the next day. She had a fittings. We all sat down got to know each other bonded really quickly And then and then the next day she started shooting so it's pretty she back to that and when you see she's incredible. Can you tell us about your character specifically Ronnie is her father and he is A like a lot of the guys. I know that I grew up with and when I read it A lot of things ought to be frank. Editing happens in in in the films. Is you know if y'all filmmakers I already know what the Hell I'm about to say certain certain things don't end up in the film and there were there. Were some beautiful things when I read it. brawny was like people that I know and like people in my family that I grew up with breath. It beautiful nuanced portrayal of this country hood dude. Who who we all know? Well we No you know and and I fell in love with him. I was just like this guy's story needs to be told the guy that has a daughter that he's trying really hard but he keeps messing up and but he gets right back up and he tries to find his hustle mentality. He's gotTa make this money and he's gotta the do right by his daughter and this girl in his wife and and down and you know he he's. He's just again a new onset portrayal of of a young black men with all of the other things that black people have to deal with white supremacy patriarchy and capitalism and all all that kind of stuff and and navigating through that and trying to find how to best service with his past and everything service his daughter and his relationship and and really trying to win back. You know his his wife. Wow give it up a Michigan teens. Enough off since so I'M GONNA take. That deeply felt incredibly well delivered just thoughtful onto. I'm I'm going to make it. Well I'm going to trivialize just a little bit of it. Because you mentioned the subject matter is about pageant and we know Texas we know pageants agents. I have a question and we like to throw this question out to some of our guests when they come out so take a deep breath and just ask the question Kendrick. When when did you? I know that you were pretty. That's a really good question I don't know like I grew up like Super Super Super Chris Gaming and and only older people would call me cute. I hated cute. Cute was like belittling. I was like I'm GonNa don't like like to I would say sometimes I would be like no I'm handsome like but everybody else my age would make fun of me. You know and even a little bit older. I had big glasses since I was maybe six. I had big ears. I had a big head and big big T and it was disproportionate to the rest of my body. Thank God it I mean it was the same size has a little kid and so I you know I did not grow up thinking man. I look good. Didn't happen but you know as I got older and to be honest when I started started getting if if getting when I would get the girl that I wanted you know I was like. Oh maybe I got something you know. 'cause I really the my first girlfriend in high school I had to. I had to go to the teacher and be like you think she'll tutor me because I was doing really bad in Algebra and she did she was like yeah. I'll I'll I'll do that. And then we just. It wasn't ever confident enough to like ask her out or anything. We just had conversations until we were like. I think we're like boyfriend and girlfriend. And and we you know we explored that as high schoolers do but but yeah I honestly you know even even now I have this like mentality that I have to keep in. I grew up black and like the only color and a lot of my classes so I was always trying to over achieving over achieve and so when it started when the complement started coming when I started when I my my voice blindly dropped and you know and I found out what contacts were in. You know what's crazy. They actually make us think that we don't look good with glasses is is all you know what I'm saying but it's just like society's expectations just burn yard and I'm like okay. Fine let me get these contacts. Let me get let me stick my finger. I You know and and it wasn't until I started navigating in highschool more so high school go maybe after Highschool People's attraction to me outside of because I was also thinking it was belittling because a lot of time it would come in When I said I wanted to act and people would be like Whoa? You should model and I'll be like first of all as I said I wanted to be. Actor signify You trying to say I shouldn't act. I would do a whole monologue that I worked so hard on. I'm not good at memorizing anything. I am not good. You think actors. You wouldn't let me tell you. I used to have to write every line down ten times ten times in order to memorize it because I was not good at it and so when I had to work way harder than everybody else in class in order to to do well and and when I got up there and performed I was taking it seriously and when I was done and somebody was like. Have you ever thought about modeling. I was like so i. Yeah I'm still navigating that but I you know every time I'm like I appreciate it. I'm even to this day. My buddies like please don't when people compliment me. I'm like Shit what do I say. You gotta get out of that. You GotTa get out of that just embrace it like say thank you. This is just not how adults I'm like But that's you want you hungry. So do you think that being are looking the way that you look. I don't want to keep calling you pretty eighty but do you think that that has Hindered your career in any way that people are just like. Oh He's too good looking for for this particular kind of role. Yeah for sure I mean like obviously I'm considered for certain roles that other people wouldn't be because of look but at the same time when I go in there A lot of time. Not only because of the way I look but also because. I'm you know multi-ethnic you know In in the when they want somebody to be black they want somebody to be black. You know and even I'll I'll be honest even in this role channing. Wasn't sure that I could pull this off. She did but most people know what my family looks like. Most people don't know who my family is in my experience with my family. And if I'm not good at anything thing else I'm pretty good at impressions and so she did she. She just didn't think because based on what I've done before and my looks and she was just like you can't be gritty enough And and I had to convincingly you know in that took a lot so there's there there were a lot of. I have not booked a role that in a one hundred percent sure. I have not booked a role that was written for me like like the description. Was this this what you see right now in. My first role on Greek was written for a skinny white. I read head dude. Yeah actually the only one I will say I did one episode of CSI where I was supposed to be mini Gary Dourdan and On that one was I was like I hope I got this one. But yeah but over and over again I played a British Scherzer on showtime and then the really convince them the same thing with how to get away and like there were there were her. Haven't ever been written in my description so it's finding a place for someone who looks like me because you know you know they think black people look one certain way And then also again. I'm not complaining about this at all. So don't make but they're like oh he's too good looking for this or whatever I'm like okay. It's really just the fact of acting. You know you mentioned some of those television roles and obviously you're in a film here. Do you want to do more work on a film. And what are some of your dream roles. I drink projects. Oh Yeah I wanted to do. A film is my I love like I in in I didn't ever dream. TV would be where it is right now. Like the quality the the it's transformed in the past. I've moved to La Thirteen in years ago. And when I moved to La. I mean a lot of things were different. It sounds like so much further away than it was but we were still using black and white headshots like Hollywood was was pretty far behind you know and and MTV was not thought of it like it is now now it's much of it is on par with them Independent film or or or even higher quality than some of the films right super that cuge special effects. Like game of thrones and such so I've I've fallen fallen in love with TV. Because of the stories in the quality of the story is being told but film was always especially independent. Film was always my first love so I want to continue to do that. In my right dream roles are the ones that I've developed myself and want to produce. I'm working on producing in. I WanNa just I just nuanced you want black characters like not innocent. And I'm tired of US China. We have to be so innocent or perfect not not evil level or nuanced black roles. That's what I WANNA play. Those are my dreams. And I've I've I've developed so so you you've mentioned totalling between film and TV. I want to talk about the small screen for a minute. Let's talk about Nathan from insecure and people are loving with the thing is the thing the thing is I love Nathan. Oh Yeah I know. It's a problem but like I felt so so much for him while also wanting to smack him upside the head. And that's good. That's very good to the in writing thinking to myself like if I see him in the street it's on sites like he's so I was annoyed however however there is one perfect thing that Nathan did with Isa who's the day-long Romantic la date. I don't know how many of you have seen before sunset. It's before sunrise. I grow up loving those films and all the While I was thinking world black people in this kind of life and then Stella Maggie Director of that episode food. Plus you plus Isa. You made my first black before sunrise. It's the first of all thank. You just read the lines. My Mark Mark. You did more than the motorcycle. Have you ever actually been yourself on a day-long L. A. or any other like dates or is that just for the movies. I know I know I have not no I I don't I have had soup. I've had fun adventures But to be completely honest this is very controversial to a lot of people. But I don't date. I just don't have tire what Tom I don't and more so I don't want to put that energy towards that going through trial trial and error and everything while. I'm trying to work to liberate people. I'm like I don't have the time to take the responsibility to commit to someone right now or I'm not going to give that time right now. I'm trying to build an organization called build power. I'm on this campaign trail for twenty twenty. I'm building up my career in good outlet I have had really dope adventures ventures that were similar to to Isa in Nathan Running around and his was really funny before you go there. I didn't have to work too. Hard to relate in that. That was the first time I even no like. I said I had to convince them that I was right for the role that row seemed like it was written for me. They didn't have me and mine. They had a completely different look at mine really from what I understand but they but uh I got in there and I was like I had these conversations. I've done this when I came to L. A. I'm moved south. La and I met. Actually that was probably the last kind of I met a girl who like was showing me you know L. A. and and I had very similar experiences where I was just like. Oh this is dope but Texas has better barbecue. Yanno woah barbecue is is that kind of thing I was like I really had these conversations I was like. What is the valley that kind of thing Lamar Park like? What is this an so entire black area we have like McGregor and in? I'm trying to think of like wealthy black areas it's not like the expansive Ansett ladera Heights Baldwin Hills to Lammert. You know I was just like this is incredible but at the same time making fun of it. Because I'm like this ain't in Houston when you go to the hood and Houston U-turn Street and you're like I need to get the puck about in La. You're like these streets are clean. These are nice. August palm tree takes care of his palm trees. How often do you think about socks to be not that March but I did find myself thinking about them a lot recently because we were going into into the wilds of Utah Right for Sunday's was very cold there? It was freezing cold. And that's why I was super grateful that in my suitcase. I had BUMBA socks through. Tell me more. They are Leila's comfortable socks. I have ever worn like be most comfortable. They made like super soft natural. Cotton and every pay comes with arch support which. I didn't even know I needed but it turns out you need vote. They had a seamless toe. So you take that weird thing where your toes feel different to the rest of your foot and a cushioned foot bed which is super comfy but again not big. It really is a miracle of socks WCHS Bombos what feet daydream about. I never thought about it like that but I agree. Yes my feet of very very happy. You know the the best thing about them loose but every purchase you make some Bomba's they will donate a pair to someone in need that's buyer Bomba at Bomba's dot com slash thirst today and get twenty percent off your first purchase. That's the M B S Dot Com slash thirst for twenty percent off blombos dot com slash. Thirst okay but I'm not GonNa let you off the hook. I WANNA ask though. Why are you? Are you know building the nation. Don't you sometimes just want to come back home and be like baby. Can you just give me a glass of ice water. Don't don't you want somebody there. But I don't have the I don't I also have to take the responsibility ability to be like you need some ice water. What I'm saying I need? I have to take that responsibility to be like. Hey what do you need and how can I provide it and right now I gotTa uh-huh fair that you already know you're not trying to likely anybody on but going back to that day go through trial and error to you find that this. This is true which is even worse stocks. You know and I've got to be that trial and error for somebody else. which is is hard to you know our L. depressed about but to go back to that day long day between Nathan and Isa it kind of the whole situation between them kind of went sideways ways? you know he kinda he kinda. He actually ghosted In a ruined the whole vibe that they had going on and then he resurfaced in Asia was able both to confront him about that. And we've got a little clip. Look I didn't mean to take off like that you didn't deserve. I was in my because I went back to Houston for stealing with a lot of shit. And you know not explaining but sometimes I just glide really down and and Kinda negative and I just can't talk to people sometimes and I. I didn't put you through. There are those to me and let the La Aches. You're in a bad mood. I fucked up as I just wanted to think. Oh Nathan must've all ISA was wrong. It's more than about right. It was more than a bad move so she was a little shady anymore clues because it gives beings You know on and now Hari. No no no we're GONNA WE'RE GONNA bring it up a little bit for you. So so based on that whole arc in the show. We've devised a little game that you can play with us here today. It's a variation of apologize for the the People who don't like this word variation on the game that we know commonly as Faulk Mary kill but instead of that. It's going to be okay. So we're I'm going to ask cool Based on options we're going to provide. We're going to ask you. who would you like to eat tacos and kiss on the mouth with? Who would you like to go on a day-long date with and who would you ghost so we've got some cards here so you can select? Yeah okay well before you do that before I br bring down the mood after this I agree with Ya. I think Isa was was wrong on that regard of like him just being in a bad mood because he was obviously trying to communicate something that you know. He was dealing with mentally not. And you know he might not know what that is and or whatever but at the same time you know will. She does have to protect herself and she had something that she doesn't understand either. And you know that is something that we don't get to talk about in the black community. The era oppressed communities really indigenous communities and and Like the next communities. You don't get to express those things very much And understand them and work through them and learn how to do that in assess in those situations like okay. We'll let me handle this delicately but also also stand my ground nut and she was coming from a place of Hut will say is there were lots of really wonderful compensations after the fact this episode with people kind of having having like really good compensation so at least there was an upside to it. I did appreciate just having it out there though. Jeff Okay so killing tacos on the mouse. ghosting and daylight and. Yeah all day date and all in all day. Okay okay. So we're going to do a little throwback with the first category that we're calling the apple CIDER vinegar aunties okay. You know them when you see them. So Oh this I just WanNa be clear. We're talking about the characters and not the actors who are trained them. Okay so first. We have already blurred buddy bronx from a different world. Then we have Saint Clair James from living single and Lynn searcy from girlfriends. Who who are you kissing on a mouth ain't Tacos with this and in intact uh-huh I would say I appreciate the level of consideration? Oh you bring me back I think Freddie. Yeah okay make sense. Freddie's Mark Kissing on the amount than eating tacos and Shit All Day All Day Day Aka Mary in this scenario I think Sinclair okay. I see okay boasting Lynn absolutely a good text but all right next category. This time we are delving into your demography. Going coming along with a selection of fictional characters played by a female because does over the years. So we're GONNA call this category leading ladies and your options. Are Nicole Bahari Sorry Aka detective. It's just the characters actor. Detective Abby meals a fictional Oh lady it's not Easter. ABCD from insecure and Asia. Me King Aka Michaela for murder. Oh Jeez I yeah so these are for anybody who doesn't know. These are all women that I've played the love interest for them right. So okay so kissing on a math and you say all day all day day would be easier is fun as Hale in general. She's just a dope dope dope dope person tacos and kissing on the mouth. Okay so what is the. What is the character? It's Michaela Pratt's on murder how to get away with murder. Detective Abby meals from sleepy hollow. Oh okay so I'm doing the kissing tacos mouth and tacos with doing that with detective Mills Mill Ghost and Michaela be getting into some shit some deb girl on some phone so when I get at that all right okay. So our final category. These are fictional women we love but who can be a little difficult okay and we have have Olivia Pope from scandal. Was You said there. There were there You know people we love but it can be complicated so these are complicated women. Okay okay so a Livia Pope from scandal. Mary Jane Paul from being married Jiang and Molly Carter from insecure Um I'm goes to molly. Yeah no we know goes to Molly Love Yvonne that Molly Homey I. I am doing an all day date with Jen. Married Tame Mayor jean-paul and then a Livia Pope Wean tacos and kissing on the mouth. Very sorry I don't know if it's a movie and then you can move on because you know she's going to begin a two tacos and leave out of there become a scandal again. Thank you so much for The way that you've made so much you took such consideration with these choices are very serious about that. We appreciate it. It's not just the game Thank he's so much joining us. Thank you for talking to us. Thank you for having wonderful complex thoughts about working. Oh Man I like it. It's a good voter. Is Your next project and you all conceivable that when it comes out wider released in the meantime you can follow Kendrick twitter at Kendrick thirty eight and also an instagram. Please please give it up but Kendrick Johnson. Ah I don't know if you know we just did a heart to heart. So that's the call that growth its growth and I am not a hugger but you know some. Sometimes I make exceptions. We have had such a wonderful time with you all today. Thank you for coming coming out. Did y'all have a good time. Thank you thank you thank you. We want to give a huge things obviously to filmmaker lodge here in Park City for having us and being so accommodating. Thank you also to amazing guests. We have Mr Daniel Day Kim and we also had missed a Kendrick Sampson. Please don't forget to support. Let me the movies blast beats and Michigan team and please follow them on social media as well thank you to slates aids and of course a big thank you to drop off the sponsors of the show please enjoy your goody bags that were on your chairs. Please don't forget to subscribe that. Thus they get whatever you get your costs and as always want to make the people who helped to make this show possible especially face Smith who without without we could not be here today thank you say. That's that kid is produced by show Vincent on US and Co Perkins. You could follow the show on twitter at I. They'd get. We are on Tumbler at first aid. Kit Phone Calls Tom. Bloods combs and you can always email us at first aid kits at slate dot com. Thank you so much much for coming out again and remember stay thirsty.

Sundance US Hawaii Houston Texas Nathan Mr Daniel Day Kim murder La Daniel Nicole Kendrick Nicole Bahari executive producer Dick Kendrick Sampson Daniels Asia Mr Daniel Day FCC
Patrice Washington Tells Us How to Earn More Money & Have More Wellbeing

Don't Keep Your Day Job

1:00:53 hr | 1 year ago

Patrice Washington Tells Us How to Earn More Money & Have More Wellbeing

"There are literally people who are not sleeping at night because you're their solution and they're waiting for you to step up and shine so that they can see you and finally get the result that they're looking for they need you now more than ever. I believe that the opposite of depression. It's not happiness its purpose. I believe that every single person has something unique to contribute to the world. And that's why I wanted to create a show called. Don't keep your page. I don't keep your day. Job is about out what it is you do in this world that only you can do to make the world more whole more beautiful and to stop selling yourself short. Stop sitting it out to figure out how to take this thing. Love whether it's art or music or screen writing or dance baking. How did you leave this Europe into a life that you get contribute that you get to do you love full-time because it's not just about business it's about contribution it's about meaning that is what we seek? That is what we truly want absolutely are here to serve the world. I want help you figure out. Just how much value you have inside of you and every single week we're GONNA be talking to people who have something to add to help you get out of your own way to help you be more successful to help be the truest expression of you. My name is Cathy Heller. I'm so glad that you're here. Let's dive in thanks to ship station for supporting. Keep Your Day job. No matter where you're selling Amazon at sea or your own website ship station brings all your orders into one simple interface. Making them really easy to manage from any device. Even your cell phone use my offer code dream job to get a sixty day free trial. Hey guys it's Kathy. Welcome back to another episode of. Don't keep your day job. I hope you had a meaningful sweet mother's Day. It was a mixed bag just to keep it super real. I had one really lovely moment where I took my girls on a little walk around her neighborhood. And we found little sticks and stones and we saw a couple of butterflies and that was magical and then The kids did bring me like sin abundant. They made an artwork and that was awesome but at one point in the day my husband and I got into an argument and I was like so upset and I realized that one of the things that women can do a better job of and people in general can do a better job of is we really neglect ourselves. Like the people who love us. Love us but it's really hard when for a really long time we are depleted. Because we don't do for ourselves and we don't really clearly say this is what I need. This is what I desire and instead where giving and giving and doing and doing and we need a nap or we need a break and then when we ask for it instead of saying this is what I need right. Now this is what would really make me feel great or you know we come from a place like. Oh my God I don't understand. Why can't you keep the kids quiet for an hour? You know what I'm saying so I just keep learning that lesson over and over that I need to do a better job of saying this is what I need and being better at knowing how to take care of myself and I think we all could use that speaking of which. I'm really really thrilled. Because this week. We start the here for this five day challenge. Because I'm here for this. I'm here for you. I'm here for all of it and we're going to get into that this week. We're going to talk about. What are you really need? And what's going to make you feel more like yourself? What's GonNa make you feel more apiece and what's going to help you get through this time? And what is possible during this time? If you haven't signed up it's not too late. You can go to Cathy DOT COM SLASH. Here for this and it's five days. It's free we start today. I'll be live every single day in our free group which you will get a link to join when you sign up and I'll be there every day at noon Pacific but if you sign up we'll send you the replay even if you can't be there and I highly recommend you sign up because I'll be live every day. We'll send you the replays if you can't make it and you'll get these awesome homework assignments and just so much great content that I think is going to make you feel so supported so seen and it's GonNa give you so much hope so. Join me for that because I would love to spend that time with you okay. Now let's talk about today's episode because it's so good you're in for such a treat. Patrice Washington is here. She is a bestselling author. A transformational speaker hope restoring coach podcast host media personality. She's also known as America's money Maven and she's the founder of redefining wealth and earn more Money Movement for women. She's on a mission to redefine the term wealth and teach people to chase purpose not money and she's built a thriving community of high achieving women committed to creating a powerful life vision in their careers home health and personal finances. She has some awesome books in her real money. Answer series that you should definitely check out but you also really just seem to listen to our podcast. Redefining Wealth Patrice Washington where she shares her insights at enlightening guest interviews. That's going to empower you to live your purpose. Find fulfilment and earn more without chasing money. She's GonNa tell you about her unbelievable story and you guys brace yourself because her words and her message are going to speak life into you without further ado please welcome the one and only Patrice Washington the trees. I'm so happy that you're here. Thank you for joining me. I'm so happy to be here Kathy. You're so adorable. So filled with light and energy and enthusiasm and smarts. You are so smart and you've been doing so much to help other women. Just get out of their own crap and level up in such a meaningful way. I want to talk about your story. So tell us your story because it is pretty epic. Actually my story really I would say. My defining moment came in two thousand nine when I was on the bathroom. Floor of my teeny tiny apartment. Balling us not crying. Saying God. Why me why me? How did I get here? I have been a good person. I operate in integrity. Treat people with respect. And how could all of this happened to me and what happened? Was the recession hit. I own a real estate and mortgage brokerage which I started at twenty one years old built it to a bigger business by twenty five and when the recession was I really rearing its ugly head. I was on hospital bedrest. I taken a fall down the stairs in my house. And it's a preterm Labor at twenty weeks pregnant. I hit Cedar Sinai Ahead Twenty weeks. And they said Ma'am side. This baby is GonNa come any moment now and I did the only thing that I knew to do. I just. I started praying praying praying and what was supposed to be any minute now turned into several hours turned into over a full day in that emergency room and they admitted me. I ended up in this room and what was supposed to be any minute now turned into several weeks. Actually it was a full ten weeks before my daughter comes so I lived in Cedar Sinai Medical Center in Beverly Hills for ten weeks. Well around five weeks into their journey though Kathy. I'm watching the news in every single day. They're talking about the banks closing down and here I am on bedrest. Have Sixteen loan officers in real estate agents and they cannot close a deal. We have clients who are losing their deposits. We have people who are angry. But there's literally nothing that anybody can do and I'm on this hospital address with a belt around my ways monitoring me twenty four seven in my doctor comes in and Dr Lee and she says Patrice. Listen I don't know what you're stressing about. But if you don't stop you're GONNA leave your two years in a row with no baby because the year before. I had a son prematurely around twenty four weeks and he passed after five hours in my arms. Same Dr Singh floor saying hospital and I had to make a choice to surrender because as much as my business had been my baby this was going to finally be my chance to leave with a healthy baby and I was like God you know what if I did it before. I just have to believe that you'll show me how to do it again. But I can't force. I can't manipulate. I can't do anything in this situation. The only thing that I can do is surrender and I asked them to take the TV out of the room and they had the maintenance people come in and take the TV off the wall. Because I didn't even WANNA be tempted wit watching the news and letting that doom and gloom and all these stories overwhelming so they came they took the TV off the wall and my husband brought me a Bible. He brought me an IPOD. We have ipads yet. He brought me an ipod with praise and worship music and I had a red leather bound journal and every day I sang to that baby. I wrote prayers. I wrote letters to her about who she would be in what she would look like. And I read my Bible and add thirty weeks pregnant. She Finally Kane. He'd had enough about thirty weeks and five days And she was born three pounds two houses and I left that hospital after three weeks of her. Being in the nick you left the hospital with a beautiful baby girl who was twelve years old But I also left with over three hundred thousand dollars in medical debt. Because I didn't know that while I was in the hospital my Sheri- had dropped me so now deals closed. No business going on all the overhead. I owned thirteen pieces of real estate between my husband and I some were just in his name but collectively we own thirteen pieces of real estate. Many of our tenants were losing their jobs. They weren't paying rent and it was an absolute nightmare. So by the time you fast forward at my home had foreclosed a year later after me. Getting out of the hospital my six thousand square foot house foreclosed and we found ourselves in this any bidding weaning six hundred square foot apartment in metairie Louisiana. Which is where I was on that floor balling smarten crying and saying God. How did I get here because I went to school? I did the right thing. Educated people right. I heard a still small voice. Get Your Bible and I ended up getting my Bible and I landed on. The scripture was proverbs. Seventeen sixteen in Aceh. What good is money in the hands of if they had no desire to seek wisdom? What good is money in the hands of a fool if they had no desire to seek wisdom and that was the very first time then it hit me that I had been smart had all the education at a degree from the University of Southern California and I had a certifications. I had all the knowledge in the world but I didn't understand wisdom because wisdom is knowing how to apply that knowledge in win to apply in with home in because I didn't have wisdom. I never asked for help and never ask for support. I suffered in silence. My friends and family knew nothing about what was going on with us once we moved. We everything on craigslist in two days and just hit hit it. Nobody knew and we were all by ourselves and reading that scripture. It was that moment. It just did something to me as a lightbulb moment and I remember just thinking like man. I want to tell people this I want to tell people like. I know that you'd think it's all about money that you feel like if I just go harder go bigger. Go go better just keep grinding and all this stuff that everything will be fine. But that's not true light. There's another piece year so from that. Moment March ninth two thousand nine till present. My whole life has been about helping people understand that this journey is not just about chasing money. It's about seeking wisdom. I have not stopped crying for the last leg nine minutes. You're so incredible and bring to the table all the nuances of this conversation. And how much you grasp and how much you've been through and just how you gracefully talk about. Not only the grace you were given. But your grace of surrender and the wisdom and the self awareness that you pulled from. That story is so beautiful. Portrays I just today was listening to Gary V and he was saying? I'm so sad that people associate me with hustle. Because that's not really me. And he's like I'm all about like the fun and the fulfillment and I think what you just said is like people are literally losing the entire treasure because you grind grind four. What but here's what I WANNA get into now. Which is just so unbelievably stunning. You didn't make a choice which was and therefore my friends. You need to not have money and you need to live very small. You made the choice to say. How can I step back? Look at my gifts. Look at how the world needs me and served from a purpose driven place and make certain that it really fits the paradigm of how I want to live really wealthy which is to really have wealth. My Life Children. Yes time. So what does that look like? How do we build? I'm really glad you asked that because for so long. You know when I got up off the bathroom floor the first thing I could think of because I had just been introduced to someone who was a mommy blogger starbucks and I didn't know what blogging was before that moment. This is a long time ago. Now it wasn't like everybody had a blog and you can't from world like now it's like you're podcasting your books but by then commander business. I wasn't in the online space. I didn't really understand but I just knew that I felt like I was called to share this nugget of wisdom even in the midst of being right in the middle of it because I was receiving eviction notices an shutoff notices and still. There was something in me that said you have to share so I started this blog and I thought that you know at least my friends and family would read and actually come to find out within weeks. Nobody was like my husband. My mom wearing even reading and I became obsessed with this off of like but people should know and so long story short. That blog turned into me eventually writing for other big websites and magazines and then radio and then it became for years on the Steve Harvey Show and then it became all the TV success. And all this stuff right. But I found myself Kathy slipping into the cliches when some would say how did you do it? I started to say things like dream big and you know work hard and follow your passion. I was like a her myself one day. I was like who are you? You're not the girl that was on the floor. I said in that moment essay got when you restore me at NASA. When I said if you were stormy I will go everywhere. I can tell people the truth the truth about wealth because I was starting in looking at the difference between knowledge and wisdom. The other thing that idea was researched wealth was and wealth was not material. Money and wealth was not money and material possessions alone. Wealth was the condition of wellbeing so while I felt it acceptable to talk about budgeting or credit reports or these things that I knew. Because it's what helped me build my business. It's how I educated my clients in the first place in the real estate mortgage business. I didn't feel comfortable talking about all the other things that I was really doing behind the scenes because I thought if you WANNA be a personal finance expert you need to stick to the hardcore money topics but the more that I did that I found myself doing a disservice to the very people wanted to serve because people heard they should save ten percent of everything that comes in. They heard they should budget. They know that there's three credit bureaus they know these things. They know everything. They're big Mama told him about money which that's all most of us really need to know like on a very basic level but what they didn't understand was the fact that were so consumed with chasing what they thought was the in goal with the money that they were leaving all these other parts of themselves. Just Open And cluttered and unfulfilled not tapped into so it was having a negative impact on their money. So while you can read personal finance book after book after book. There's a reason that your behaviors not matching up. And what I got to was. Stop Lying. You're lying you're lying. You're telling a half truth if you're not gonNa tell people everything that you know to be true about. Well if you're only going to keep talking about money that's one aspect that's one pillar. That's one skill set. What about their faith? What about the fulfillment? They have with their work. What about their relationships with their environment? What about how what they think of themselves if you stop having these very surface level conversations? You're never going to be able to support the way that you want to. So was only just a couple years ago that I was like now I gotta allow myself to get out of the personal finance box in have all of the conversations that I wanNA have. God what you just said and you articulated so well that that when you look up the definition of wealthy it was your relationship to well. Being one of my best friends said to me you know Kathy. You're rich but you don't live like you're rich. I said what do you mean? She said? 'cause YOU YOU'RE ON. Zim Calls all day long like year constantly. Working she goes rich. People don't do that really rich people. They're hanging out you know on the Hammock by the pool. You don't live that way and I was like. Oh my God like I had gotten myself into this place a way that I was living day day day after day. It was just like this guy. Yeah and I had shingles and I had a miscarriage and I had pneumonia and I was like something has to be changed and what I realized Patrice and I want to hear what you have to say about. It is most often. We work hard but we don't work smart. Why don't you share with us? What happened for you after the bathroom floor after the awakening has find your path here and tell us all the things that you that you really love that you do in your business to day. Now I'm GONNA connected all because at redefining wealth. Our very first pillar is the fifth pillar. It's about becoming your bestself and because of what you just shared. I really want to to kind of jump there because these are the things that I was doing. That people didn't understand really publicly. Talk about but I know that it's led to who I am today and where I am today in the reason that the fifth pillar I is because I always tell people if you have a vision for your life. It's your duty and responsibility to protect the only vessel you get to execute that vision. We don't get multiple bodies in life. You get one physical body right and we have been groomed and we have been misinformed for so long that if we hustle and grind like that is the way we don't really hear enough about easing flow we hear hustle and grind and so we see people on social media who are glorifying things like. I have not slept in days. And it's this whole thing about sleeping two three hours a night. Here's the deal you. Let's nuts more sleeping to three hours a night. There is no way for you to have the physical capacity to receive anything that you say. You're praying for you can pray all you once and I've been there where I was like God. Enlarge my territory. I want to see the whole world. I was already on a national tour right but I was like I want to go international and I remember when I was in the emergency again. Emergency Room again. This is years later. I was there for food poisoning but they did some tests and they came in and said you realize you have like way more problems. Food poisoning him like. Oh is that sell. Your iron levels are really low. You're extremely anemic. Your hemoglobin levels are so low like literally. If you were older we would be giving you a blood transfusion right now. But we're GONNA we're going to trust you to get so haematologist right. I had been ignoring the signs have been ignoring the symptoms. I didn't know shortness of breath was a problem right. Extreme fatigue constant exhaustion. But I was like well. I wore those things as a badge of honor. I exhaustion as a badge of honor. Because I was hustling grinding and I was building my empire so I thought it was okay to be exhausted and especially as a mother and a wife if my husband or my daughter had ever said they had those symptoms. I would have never let them go that long. But many of us especially women we will suffer in silence and we will go along with the symptoms will diagnose ourselves on. Web MD and we think that we can fix it and keep going. But if I have such a big call on my life if I had people to serve I do myself and my audience and everyone that I was called to help a disservice when I don't take care of myself that comes first that beyond even knowing what you're passionate about and all the things about purpose and everything else you have to take care of you you know without s Kathy. Where's our family and look at all the people we serve what happens right so the very first part is being physically fan but we follow that also would being mentally fit and this is what I wanted to share with you about what your friend said. It is tapping into childhood wounds. That childhood trauma is what causes you to work as if you have not made it right like yes. You're always striving and you WANNA do more but the truth is you don't have to work to the limit that you still work or that you were choosing to still work at that time that she had the conversation with you and like you and like all of us we have these childhood traumas and we have these things that impact how we see money how we see ourselves how we see. Financial Success in much of it is done through different conditioning. So whether those are verbal influences what did you hear about money right? If you heard someone say the moment that you start working you lose or you'll you'll lose everything that could be something that's running in the back of your head without you even thinking about it. It's like a sub-conscious belief right. I know verbal verbal influences. There's modeling there specific incidents. But even if it's not money related for me I grew up hearing that I was the ugly one so I was always the only person in the family. And I was the Blackie I was the dark easy. My Lips were to fool. My is too weird. I always got made fun of and I don't mean a school I mean at home. I mean in my family. Okay so I knew that I was smart so I leaned into being smart but I've never felt beautiful. I never felt pretty. I was not the pretty friend right. It was always something then I go to school. I'm tall five ten in ninth grade so I'm taller than most the boy. He's thin so I used to wear extra clothes. Everything that could be wrong was wrong. People pick me apart and it wasn't until I was twenty five years old after three years of therapy that I could look in the mirror and not cringe and wished that I looked like somebody else. I was a little girl in the bathtub. Scrubbing my skin. 'cause I thought that I was dirty. 'cause someone told me. I was thirty and I thought that if I scrubbed hard enough that there would be something lighter underneath and was like a bath away from trying to bleach my skin with real bleach. This is a third and fourth grade child because of the trauma that I experienced at the hands of people who said they left me. And why is that important? I share that because when I look at my life today and I look at all the personal development and the therapy and all the stuff. That's gotten me to this place and I see myself on. National Television on stage in front of thousands of people are my face on these book covers. I know that I could not be who I am today. If I did not deal with my childhood trauma and I know that there are so many people who are listening right. Now you have all the degrees you have all the education you've taken all the courses you listen to all the podcast. You are not short on knowledge at all but you may need to go deal with some childhood trauma that is stopping you from showing up in just doing the things that you already know to do. Because I know Kathy knows. We're both coaches. You can tell someone over and over again. Just do it this way. Just follow these steps. I've laid out the plan and they will not follow in. They cannot follow. It's not a cognitive thing. It is emotional trauma. It had trauma in your business is only going to grow to the extent that you are willing to heal that trauma. God I mean again. The words are so incredibly powerful. Your vulnerability is exquisite. And I'm like literally baffled by how you experienced acts and literally exude. Why because you glow like? I'm literally awe like intimidated by how gorgeous you are. So they but exists goes to show what a joke like. What are you on? No one sees that the point is your show ethic the work you've done on yourself. It's so apparent. Because what you feel when you're in the presence of you. I just feel possibility and hope and boom. I'm only feel like light and magic and you're like do you see it and it's for you like the fact that you bring that to people and you've been through what you've been through to me is just so epic so that's number one number two hundred percent. It's the the case I love what you just said. A friend of mine had said to me. There's a difference between having money earning money. Okay and certain people we earn. We are good at earnings so even when we have it. We don't act like we do so often I meet people. They have a goal. They hit the goal. They move goalpost. They still have a relationship with in order for me to have in order for me to receive. I have to literally like crawl on my knees for thousands of miles so so many people listening right now are probably like preach amen. I'm in but like how you know. How do I know that I have value? If I don't really feel like I do. How do I start a business? Is that even mean? What's the first step? How can I get there? How can I figure out what I'm good at? How could possibly make a living with ease? So there's a couple of things that come to mind immediately The first thing is giving yourself permission to really embrace your gifts so I think a part of why people want the journey to be hard or why they expect it to be hard is because it just does not seem real that you should be able to do work that you love and things that you're naturally good at and charge the money that you want to charge what I hear from women so often is but like that's why God gave me in in. It's like right exactly. That's what God gave you to produce. Well that's not what God gave you to get pants. Oh to give away freely and not acknowledge your worth or your value. We tend to think that when something comes to US freely that. It's so easy that we shouldn't do anything with it. We tend to negate. The gift will say things like mean anyone can do that. Or everybody's good at that or anybody can do this. And it's like actually now. I have friends that can throw together. Gourmet meals I mean macgyver. The most random ingredients together until it is amazing. And then you have me who walks in the kitchen and I immediately start to sweat and getting Zaidi right not my gift. Not My strong suit rate. So it's acknowledging I that there is a gift and then embracing that that's the thing and not searching forever and ever thinking no it must be this thing like my gift to speaking period. Can I just raise my hand and say that I know that's your gift to I? WanNa be one like sixteen million people who goes YEP? I knew that my speaking that is the very thing Kathy that I got in trouble for the all through school and I remember my first grade teacher Ms Poynton. I have been where would raise my hand. Always have the answer. I want to know the answer and she says Miss Cunningham. She My may name put your hand down. I was like excuse me. That's what I'm thinking that my six zero bring like what's have the answer. She needs to call me. You kept me back at recess and she said I know you know the answer but at this point you need to be willing to help your other friends. Who Don't know the answer. I don't need you to just keep saying it. I need you to help them. That was the first less than I had in supporting other people. Like using the fact that I was GonNa talk any way one way or another but using it in a way that supported other people. That's why it made sense to me when I was on the bathroom floor. My first thought was I gotTA share. I gotTa tell people I have to go talk about. It will now. That's what I get paid to do. A talk on my podcast. I talked from the stage. Talk on radio talk on television. All I do is talk. The only thing I had to do was figure out talk about what but the gift was in speaking. It wasn't fancy we all do it. You know it wasn't something that was just so special. The specialties came in right allowing myself to get passionate about something enough to use my gift. People think that passion is the thing so they'll go. We'll follow your passion in the money will come. We'll know some of you are passionate about things you have no business charging for. I can be passionate about singing but I need to keep that to the shower. Okay at the you would not love me if you heard me saying. I can be passionate about that. But that's not my purpose because my purpose is going to be used to be a blessing to other people if it's only going to be helpful to me or I'm the only one that can benefit. It's not purposeful. It's not needed in the world right so when I allowed myself to accept like look girl. Only thing you got going is that mouth right. You don't have a problem standing up and talking and sharing. That's when everything started to really unfold for me. This second. Wave of having a business in creating America's many Maven. It was giving myself permission to use one of the most basic things but accepting. That's your gift and then allowing it allowing myself to become passionate enough about how I could use it to support. People was the connection for me. I mean so many gems in there like one sentence but it's kind of a through line which I gave myself permission to start doing it right and you also talked about charging what you're worth and again there's permission there right like when you start a podcast when you start talking on Instagram. No one comes over knocks on the door. And we're going to give you permission. You can start now right like never was I have to tell you. I remember when people would ask me. Who like. Who made you America's money may then and I would say I did and they're like what do you mean asset for someone to come crown me like I've done the work? I'm helping people. This is the moniker that I'm going with. This is what I call myself. They're like oh I thought. Steve Harvey Crowns. You know Steve Harvey called me what I already called myself. That's what he did. He got hind what I already said about me for exactly exactly everything you're saying is incredible before keep going listed. Thank our sponsor were all adapting to this changing world. Which means we're going to be buying online more than ever before and if you're an ECOMMERCE seller you can be ready to meet the demands of our new delivery culture with ship station. 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When you use our offer code dream job make sure your business ready to meet. The demands of delivery Culture GET STARTED AT SHIP STATION. Dot Com Today. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in. Dream job. That's ship station. Dot Com than enter. Offer DROP SHIFT STATION DOT COM. Make ship happen. So let's talk about what happens from that point of like this is what I'm passionate about. This is what I think is my gift I'm going in. I'm giving myself permission. And yet people will say the trees. I started talking about stuff on instagram. Or I started whatever and no one's coming or it's not working. How do I go from here to getting noticed? By someone like Steve Harvey or building a business or beginning to be able to come up with an offer. Now that I can charge for like what is that progression. Look like yes so. The first thing that happened is I had to keep talking to that little devil on my shoulder that kept saying who are you. Who Do you think you are like? What do you think this is right and then like I said earlier when my husband and mom when I could tell that they weren't even reading the blog I came up actually stopped for several weeks and there was a man who actually emailed me out of the blue? Who said Hey. I hope you're well. I have been enjoying your blog. And you haven't posted lately and at the time remember. I was new to the online where I was like. Who is this creepy man? I don't where did he come from? How does he know me? What is this? I hadn't learned how to like check comments and read the back in. I only knew how to type my little stuff and post a picture I had. I didn't know anything about it so I went and I saw that people page views and people actually had been reading and that one man I call him my to this day. He taught me. The importance of an audience of one is still an audience. And what we do is we claim to be pass purpose to be passionate in purposeful about something. But then we don't have a audience. We give up quickly the thing with entrepreneurs especially you know we have shiny monkey syndrome and there's always something new is that we will do a million things once and then good upset because we don't get the results that we want. How did I get here consistency? I was calling myself. Money may been showing up. My first speaking gigs were not to ten thousand people. They were so four people in the library. Okay I wrote my own guide for basic personal finances and went to churches in New Orleans no matter where I lived at the time and went around like pitching myself to pastors. Only one person allowed me to do a session and it was a four part session and once the first night there was like ten people then the second Monday the next week those people invited folks in the word got around Church that it was good like thirty. Plus people came on my fourth night. There were like one hundred people and that was the thing that was like you're onto something you're onto something like people get it. They connect to you. But those were my first thing. Speakers speak coaches coach late consultants console. You have to find ways to do the thing until you are able to get paid for it and I'm not saying that you do it for free forever but the way that you really encourage yourself to raise your word is to see the impact that you make bull like the results are in the people so if the people are getting results now. I know I should probably charge more than two hundred dollars to speak. The next phase was five hundred and then it was a thousand and then it was twenty five hundred and it was thirty five hundred and five. Mentana fifteen and then start at fifteen thousand. Gay Guy didn't start at twenty thousand Gig. I started at two hundred a Gig but I serve those people like I was getting two hundred thousand in the thing is if you especially when you're starting but even for me now. I don't care if I walk in some places there's ten people or ten thousand people. I'm going to show up and give the same energy and enthusiasm and passion because guess what. I'm doing what I said I wanted to do. That should be the first thing that gets you fired up. Not How many people and now. How many folks like and how many people comment. That should be the first thing that encourages you to be consistent so beautiful. Wow an audience of one selling audience. Last time I checked. Oh my gosh. Is that so important to hear? Now you were describing in the beginning of this whole episode. What you went in two thousand eight now. A lot of people sitting here are really in a tough spot because we haven't seen what we're seeing now since two thousand eight and you're like hey guys lived through it so for people who are here now especially because the way that you did. The pivot allowed you to build an online business. Allowed you to talk to human beings. What do you have to say to people right? Now who are worried that they won't have a brick and mortar to go back to who very much need to get on the board and Understan- How am I gonNa create something right now like what would you suggest so my suggestion would be definitely to get really clear about what message you want to get out there like. What is the big promise right? You have for other people so the thing that really just supported me at that time was understanding that. I just didn't want people to suffer the way that I was suffering. I just wanted to restore hope so my only thing was how do I provide something that restores? Hope and I use the blog to do that. What is that thing that you want to get out there even if right now just sharing your experience. Can you do that through a blog? Can you do that through youtube? Can you do that through you know your instagram page? Even just having people follow your journey and I actually have to take it back. You're going to have to be vulnerable and be okay with saying that you know stuff is hitting the fan from me right now and I just want to document it and I want to take as many people with me as possible because so many people are suffering but the way that you may be navigating this can be inspiring to others. It could be therapeutic for both parties. You end the audience right so I think creating meaningful content. That's genuine right now. Is going to win. And based on the response of the audience again that audience of one if you have one random man named Joe that comments on everything where Joe's paying points and what does he need right because he has to be the only Beta Tester. You have for your program for your course for your product for whatever that thing is. He's going to be the one that would give you the feedback but I would say another thing. Honestly it's kind of like giving yourself permission it but it's actually looking at this time as a gift opportunity and I know that that is really hard when stuff is hitting the fan and you're like this is nuts but if you can embrace that a little sooner quicker faster you will give yourself the empowerment to get creative and figure it out and like find a way to figure it out the longer you stay stuck in like this sucks like my whole life my this my that and you stay in the mode of like whining and complaining because at the end of the day this is another moment in time where we all have to surrender so we have to surrender and see what the possibilities are for. What's next right and I know for me? At the time that everything hit the fan I had a great life. I was living very well. We drove matching ranger overseas. We lived in a six thousand square foot home in southern cal. Like I was eating good traveling. Good you couldn't have told me that going through that experience would bring me to who I am today. I wouldn't let go. I would've stayed wound up in no. Why me why me why me instead of finally releasing goint got. Tell me something what would can this mean. What are the opportunities here? Because this could be a blessing or lessen it doesn't have to be the worst thing that ever happened to me. Once I shifted that mindset the world opened up and I think there's another opportunity and I'm uncomfortable in some places right. A lot of my income is from speaking. But guess what I started to do. I change the tags on my website. I'm our virtual keynote speaker already. Got Booked Right. That wasn't a thing for me two months ago but now it is and now there's so much opportunity. So how do we keep reimagining? What's possible for us as opposed to staying in this attachment to what what was because we don't know if things are going to go back just to normal so you can't hold onto that you can see it as an opportunity to stretch and grow and get out of your comfort zone and possibly discover a new version of yourself that you might be quite pleased with you. Just don't know yet. Yeah I have a question. Because we haven't even covered at your. You have so much in your journey. That's so incredible that we didn't even cover the before right before you had this incredibly successful business at twenty five living in a six thousand square foot house driving matching range rovers. You correct me if I'm wrong but you didn't grow up that way girl. I think that you said you grew up in south central or did you not tell me that I did tell you that I grew up in an area called Lamar Park in south central Los Angeles right. So how on Earth did you change your relationship to money and possibility so drastically? I grew up in south central. Like you said in a neighborhood infested would gang violence drive-by shootings prostitution and drug use. Like you name it. I saw out the window. I lived above a storefront on a mainstream in. La and literally. There was a bus stop right across the street and my grandma and I saw boy his head blown off and I was like in third grade so I knew really young. I used to say I don't belong here. That's what I used to tell my mom and my grandma now as an adult now with the child I look back and I'm like that was really rude. I was probably. They probably thought I was nuts. But I used to say I don't belong here. I don't belong here and I think I was born with a strong sense of purpose. Even though I wasn't around people that can cultivate it. I just always wanted more and the fact that I was verbally and emotionally traumatized the bid and my home and Al really made me go in a lot. I really was big on self awareness even as a little kid like. How am I showing up? Does it look? It was true like self reflection like I was very in tune with like how people were perceiving me or perceiving things. I just always carried that with me and I'm just really grateful. What helped was teachers. Along the way parents of other friends along the way in I as a parent. Now it's really important to me to encourage my daughters friends even just do little things like. Oh you're so cute liquid shoe you're flat 'cause you really know what they're thinking about themselves and what conversations in new me as a child because I was smart people assume that I was. Okay yeah the time because I could show up and do the spelling bee. They didn't know how uncomfortable I really was with people looking at me. I was more comfortable with. I knew that I could compete. You know and be good at something so it was the people who came in my life along the way I didn't know to call them mentors or anything like that but Mrs Linton First Grade Teacher. She planted the seed in me. That when I know something I help people will ask who I am today. Right at thirty nine years old. That's what I do today. That gives me chills up. Yeah when I look at different teachers not all of them because some of them added to the when I look at different teachers along my path when I look at folks from Church along my path who spoke life into me it is that reminder that we have the ability to speak life and it can change anything and had it not been for those people who were Gina strategically placed throughout my life. I don't know that I would be here. But those people have served as angels in many forms and capacities and they just really cultivated. This idea that I could do anything. And once I got over this Hump Mentally of what I looked like and being ashamed of all these things things really took off for me much differently because I started to see myself the way I believe God sees me is in his image and once I started to feel that and really lean more into the what is meaning for me. That's what the Bible says about what is possible in the charge to be bold be courageous and to fear not you know and all these things and bright when I started to lean into that versus the what ifs which are all fear in all the noise and all the things that other people try to plan. It's not that it's not there because I don't consider myself fearless a half year in a move instead. Move with it and like I said I just keep showing up consistently and I feel that. I'm just attracted the most amazing people folks like you who will say I don't know I just don't upon you and here we are but I'm like I know I only know all day. I know that this was strategic in. This happens over and over again but I also think it comes from a strong faith practice in trying to like put out there that things that I want to come back while my God thought so you know. No wonder you're paid to speak. People should give you any amount of money. Because it's it's how you speak but it's what you speak and it's it's just so incredible to hear your story and the way that you see the world and I love what you just said about not buying into all those spinning fears and instead what you've done is been like okay. Well I'm going to trust that. The creator of the world sees me in this beautiful way but that also leads to trusting other things right like I think a lot of people in this time feel like Oh my God. There's no clients available. There's no people. There's no money there and I'm like how start from the place of there's so many people to serve and they're so much money there because the world is abundant it really is look at the rainforest. It's abundant look at the ocean. It's abundant look at love. It's abundant money. It's abundant right. Human serve abundant got in trouble with some folks when the pandemic I started because people were dropping in my deanza saying how can I possibly charge people and were in the middle of a right right. And what did you say I said? Everybody is not struggling. We might all be at home but to have this mindset that everybody struggling not going to stop you from being able. Here's the thing you have a responsibility to serve right. If you know how you can keep somebody from suffering. There are literally people who are not sleeping at night because you're their solution in there waiting for you to step up and show up and show out and shine so that they can see you and finally get the result that they're looking for and here you are hiding. They need you now more than ever. You know if you want to change up your payment plan cool if you want to find a way to tweak. This longer course could be shorter. You can charge less cool but to not show up service to people in. You should be ashamed because it's an insult you're leaving people in pain and you're insulting the very guy that gave you the gift the story and whatever it is you're supposed to be using to be a blessing and it's a shame amen so true wow is does. Doesn't that just put it all in perspective? Last thing is we've touched on it a little bit but I think even when people give themselves permission to start to serve and give even when people start to give themselves permission to test things out and to show up and to learn that they are needed by doing the speech at the Library by coaching. Just to coach when the rubber meets the road and they now know they are good at this when they now know that they do serve mission with this work still charging for it is a whole nother on that ladder which is very hard for people and you really are great. Being like this is it. This is what you charge and you can keep raising your rates and what I see. In general as most people could be making so much more if they were just raised the rates rate like why not charge more like don't sell price sell value right because it has to be hard. That goes back to that hustling. Grime mentality in the beginning right. It's like oh I gotta get one hundred people to do the thing or you can raise your price with ten. That's literally the choice. What is this exact? She just rip the band aid off. And just put your price out and you'll be surprised what people say well. Here's what I really believe. I believe that there is no transformation without transaction and so it's not about repeating the band aid off. I think you need to stop putting a band aid on both right putting a band aid on these problems. That are like bleeding problems. They are probably again really hurting really in pain. Really in some type of hell and when you don't charge what you're supposed to charge in Bay can't take it seriously enough to do the work then. They don't transform and so. Do you want to be someone who adds a band aid or do you want to perform surgery right if? I'm lying in the middle of the street bleeding. I'M NOT GONNA ask the person who runs. That says I'm a doctor. I'm not going to be like hold up. What school did you go to wait a minute? How much did you help me in the street gonNA GONNA cost me? I gotta think about it and like right. We think people are thinking about how we sir or what we offer. People are not really thinking about that. They want the results. They want the better marriage. They want the better body. They want better finances. They want their home to be clutter free because they know how that is going to impact everything else like they want the being. They're not concerned about all the things that we make it about all. I don't have enough degrees in that. I need to get certify. I need six more coaching certifications. Before I can or I'm only going to be able to charge two dollars or no now. That's not true. If you truly have a desire to transform people the transaction has to be significant enough for them to take it seriously. Yep every single thing you said I just WanNa hear it on. Repeat because all of it is the best. You're you are the best. I can't wait for this audience to know you. If they had it no new yet tell them where they can find more of you all the beautiful light and truth that you put in the world so everything portrays Washington can be found at Patrice Loko Dot Com. Of course the PODCAST is redefining wealthy. You can find it anywhere you listen to. I'm sure this podcast and my favorite social media hang out has been instagram. That's where I show up the most in. Dm's answer people's questions. I would love for you to meet me. There seek wisdom. Pccw THAT SEEK WISDOM PC. W We will put all of that in the show notes and you are an absolute gift. Thank you so much thank you. You're so incredible Cathy. I Adore you. Thank you so much. Oh my God. Patrice is incredible here. Are the takeaways number one. It's not about chasing money. It's about seeking wisdom number. Two wealth is not about material possessions and money alone. Wealth is a condition of wellbeing number. Three your business will only grow to the extent that you were willing to heal your trauma number four. Give yourself permission to embrace your gifts. You don't have to go searching for it forever and ever number five audience one is still an audience number six render to this moment and see what possibilities our next. Look at this time as a gift and opportunity to stretch out of your comfort zone and discover a new version of yourself number seven we have the ability to speak life and it can change anything and number eight. You have responsibility to serve. There are people who aren't sleeping at night because you are their solution. They need you now more than ever. Thank you guys so much for being here. Thank you so much for listening. I know that there's a million things you could be doing with your time. It means the world. I'm so grateful that you're here. And if you want to jump in on the five day doing starts today. It's free go to Cathy. How're DOT COM SLASH CHALLENGE OR KATHY DOT com slash? Here for this either way you will get to sign up it. Starting today. I'll be live at noon Pacific. If you can't be there with us live we will send you the replay cafe AU dot com slash challenge or caffeine dot com slash. Here for this whichever. One will get you there and I would love to be spending this time with you and do you feel like the show is changing your life or adding something to your life. That's positive if so can you think of one person right now? Who could benefit from this episode? Can you think of one person who needs to hear? Patrice or who needs to hear this show? So please share the episode. It really is helping more than you know. We have moved up the chart to number twenty nine because you guys are tagging and sharing and subscribing it is literally helping other people find this show and it means everything and it doesn't cost you so. I'm going to be doing to incredible giveaways every single month. I'll be giving to people scholarship to my program plus some awesome. Swag we have these adorable hoodies. Say Heart of a hero and these mugs said that say. Let your colors shine? All you have to do is star which stands for subscribe tag reviews of subscribed the show wherever you listen. It's free talk about the show on instagram and tag a friend than leaving review in. Take a screen. Shot an email review to hello it. Don't keep your day job with the subject line star and will enter you into that and we'll be choosing to of you every month and I would say those are pretty good giveaways. It costs you like three minutes to enter and it changes the whole game for us. A thank you to everyone. Who's been doing that? You guys are the best. I hope to see you for the spicy experience. You can go to Cathy. How'RE DOT COM SLASH? Here for this and you can join us. This is going to be amazing and I will see you real soon. Elite you the song of mine and I'll talk to you on Thursday for the next episode or I'll see you in the five experience. The podcast is a production of authentic for more INFO on advertising in this show visit authentic shows dot com jazz. Can't save your shave. I'll be here Long I'll be here for you for you. People on the planet if had much planned it doesn't get a count on me. You down you will come there for me and hold man. 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Technology and Race with Ruha Benjamin

Factually! with Adam Conover

1:07:30 hr | 7 months ago

Technology and Race with Ruha Benjamin

"UNSPOILED is back for season two Paul and amy tackle the one hundred, and now they're making their own list starting with back to school movies. Check out the first episode on mean girls. Right. Now on Stitcher Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Are you. One of those people who think it's okay to drive stoned. What's the worst thing that can happen you end up driving below the speed limit? It's no big deal, right? Wrong. The truth is your reaction times slow way down when you're high, you not only put yourself in danger but everyone around you talk about a buzzkill, stop kidding yourself. It is not okay to drive high. So look if you've been using marijuana in any form, do not get behind the wheel please if you feel different, you drive different drive high get a Dui. It's easy to see why apartments DOT COM says they're the best site for renters because with virtual tours, it's easy to find a new space without leaving your place virtually view floor plans and amenities with three detours and explore hd videos and photos including. Neighborhood Images and even drone footage of exterior views all from the comfort of your couch because we know that is where you are spending a lot of time lately they make it that easy visit apartments dot com, and get into a new rental today apartments dot com the most popular place to find a place. Hello, everyone. Welcome to factually I'm Adam conover and for decades we've heard about how technology will change the world right in the nineties. It truly seems to the Internet and revolutionary even Utopian potential we were all told and we believed that would break down the barriers that separate people and information we were told Tech would fix all of our problems it would solve educational access with free massively. Online classes it would eliminate discrimination because no one could tell who was who online. So we would all compete on the merits. We even thought that tech would be strong enough to topple dictatorships remember the Arab spring. The media literally told us that twitter was going to be stronger than decades of authoritarianism from Toronto Cairo and this was back on twitter only had one hundred and twenty characters. Each of those characters was doing a lot of heavy lifting. Well, suffice it to say if you're living in the present that I am no, these dreams has come true a decade. Later, the democratic gains of the Arab spring have largely rolled back and authoritarian governments have proved to be even more adept at harnessing the communicative power of the Internet. The democratically minded citizens are and in America. Well let's just say our Utopia of technologically secured equality has not arrived yet. Let's start with claim that technology would be a boon for education. That's sure would be useful right now right at a time when students and teachers are unable to gather together in the same place. Why? Surely after decades of talk and integration on the idea of online learning, we should be ready for this moment, right? Well unfortunately, we are not because the digital revolution has not come equally to America according to the Pew Research Center about fifteen percent of all households was school aged children lack a high speed Internet connection. You know it's pretty hard to log into the zoom with your teacher when you're stuck guessing the neighbor's WIFI password and the reason for this gap, this digital divide is. That rather than our government exerting its power to make sure the Internet in this country was built fairly we've allowed corporations to do it for us with very little oversight and the result is that wealthier areas and populations have been prioritized throughout the history of the Internet while lower income neighborhoods have had to wait or of never received a connection of broadband Internet at all. Advocates call this digital redlining because just like residential redlining it's at a disparate racial impact. Black Americans are less likely than white Americans to have a broadband connection at home a future of Internet, equality. This is not. Now look. If you listen to the show, you know that being skeptical of the promises, the Techno Utopians is not new to me. It's a recurring theme on the show, but I don't want you to think that I'm turning into a technophobe either I'm not here to tell you that technology is actually bad because the truth is the source of the problem is deeper. The truth is that technology is not produced in a vacuum by abstract thinking techno innovators with their minds up in the cloud. No technology is produced by a society and when a society. is based in injustice and inequity. Our tech ends up reflecting and reproducing that injustice and inequity. So you start with a racist police system. We shouldn't be surprised when the algorithms of predictive policing produce racist results. Why wouldn't they the technology arises from the society? So it follows if we WANNA fix our society, we're GONNA need more than just technological fixes giving children in a broken school system new laptops is not going to be as effective as reforming their school system. So students don't receive a poor education just because of what zip code they live in. How about addressing poverty that those students return home to every afternoon, a free ipad doesn't fill up the empty belly that makes it hard for students to focus in class. None of this is to say the technology is useless but on its own, it'll always be insufficient because social problems need social solutions. Well to talk about how technology, when improperly used and deployed ends up reproducing rather than solving social problems. Our guest today is Ruhaha Benjamin she's a professor at Princeton and the author of race after technology abolitionist tools for the new Jim Code. This interview was so much fun. I found her incredibly fascinating and lively to talk to you're gonNA. Love it please. Welcome Benjamin. Rue, thank you so much for being here. My pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. So. Look I grew up with. In the middle of the Tech Revolution Right and with all these ideas of techno utopianism that the Internet was gonNA solve every social problem on the Internet. No one knows you're a dog, the famous New Yorker Cartoon Right Algorithms will. Bring in a world of equity and fairness. The land over the last decade, there's been a lot of criticism at that point of view I i. think you're part of that criticism. It could you talk about that and could you talk about this phrase that you've coined the new Jim Code I'm really curious about this. Absolutely. So there are two dominant stories that we often tell about technology. One sort of goes back to that phrase. Techno. Utopian and that's the that's the coolest that Silicon Valley's trying to sell us, and it's about you know the robots are going to stay. They're gonNA, you know they're going to make things more efficient. They're going to be more equitable all the good things but there's another story that we're also accustomed to hearing the techno dystopia story that. Sells us which is the robots and the technology is gonNA. Play US right. So it's going to destroy humanity takeaway agency, take all the jobs, and so although on the surface they seem like opposing stories like surface is pretty different. When you dig down, they share an underlying logic that technology is in the driver's seat were either going to be held in harmed by technology, but the human agency in agents behind the screen get lost from the narrative and so partly, one of the things we have to begin to do is to tell. Different stories about technology that recoup the elements of power and agency that are already there. But part of the issue that I take is that right now, a small sliver of humanity is doing that imaginative work and doing that design work in that programming work, and so they're world views. Their imagination is being embedded into our physical and digital infrastructures. So part of what we have to do is explode that Manama on and really make it much more participatory democratic, and to do that, we have to think about the existing power relations which. Brings us to the new Jim code which you know will sound kind of familiar for those who say read Michelle Alexander's Critique of mass incarceration which she terms, the new Jim Crow, which itself is a riff off of the way that we've talked about white supremacy in racial segregation in this nation when we term the kind of era of Jim Crow of explicit legalized segregation and so in the same way that Michelle, Alexander's trying to get us to see how mass incarceration continues to perpetuate social and Racial Control Mike Concept of the. New Jim Code is trying to get us to think about how technology continues to do that work that it hides so many forms of inequity under the guise of progress under the shining services of AI systems, automated decision systems, machine learning, etc, and so that code part of it is key that it's coated it's harder to discern. But hopefully now with the growing language as you mentioned in the last few years of people and organisations and movements shining a light on this phenomenon, we can start talking about it and pushing back against it. Oh. My Gosh. There's so much in there that I wanNA. I WANNA. Dive into I. Mean You had this incredible idea at the beginning about how we talk about technology as. Neutral as something that's just coming like a force of nature that we almost have no control over. It's literally the robots is literally algorithms and you're right that dissenters the the people who are making it. which is really, which is really interesting. Yeah. Can you talk more about that absolutely and so I, think part of the to realizes that so much oppression happens out of solutions to things and so mass incarceration. Was a reform from from the penal sort of like just killing people. Now, we're going to hold you in cages. So now, the the the issue is that how do reforms? How things that seem to present fixes things actually reproduce certain dynamics insertive social hierarchies are forms of oppression, and so in that way innovation goes hand in hand with inequity and oppression. So often we associate. Like technological innovation with social progress like that's part of the kool-aid is to get us to believe that those two things are the same. When in fact, innovation has long been gone a hand in hand with all manner of oppression, and so I often think about like the first person who put up a whites only sign in their in their store that was an innovation, right? Later, they put up later they put up a neon sign and. Like the first person who said, you know what? Let me let me create a a colored water fountain like that was a bright idea and like whoever did that like you know it caught on and so the things in hindsight that we think of as so backwards regressive at the time they were innovative, which should get us thinking about what now are we? So enamored with you know the we think Oh this is the next right thing and so that's why often when I when I'm when I'm talking with folks I referred to that better off Ted episode it's titled Racial. Sensitivity. I. Love at show. This is a great pull that show was canceled before its time I was. It was too subversive. This three minute genius clip in which the the company decides to install sensors all over the building but the censors don't detect darker skin and none of the black employees can open the doors. They can't use the elevator they can't use the water fountains. That happens is they when they bring it to the CEO the response is oh. Don't worry we'll. We'll fix this. We'll put a manual water fountain for the Darker Skin Employees. The one with sensors which to me is just so really great illustration of how you know you create all of these kind of splashy things to make life easier, and then if it doesn't work for some people, we retreat back to this. Really iconic. Of the Manual Water Fountain and all over the water and says, this is for black employees because they can't uh else and so again, getting us to think about our assumptions about what innovation is and what it does. Well, would disconnects do for me is I've been working in the past on for instance, we didn't an episode of my TV show called am ruins the Internet and we open that with a critique of techno pessimists or people who say, oh no, this new technology is destroying our minds right Oh our cell relative to our cell. Phones is destroying human society and we made the argument. Hey, same as it ever was right. This is what people upset about every form of technology people said about books Oh that they're a destructive new technology that destroy the the younger generations literally did people said that about paperback books and Train Travel and Telegraph Cetera right and we were saying, no technological innovation has always been with us and there's always been saying the sky is falling but this is the argument that you're making is the same argument just the obverse that it's that hey. technology also doesn't fundamentally change our society. The way we think it does if we've got a built in power structure where some people hold power and some people don't then likely the technologies that that society creates are GonNa just keep Raya fine reinforcing that power structures that does that track for you definitely does it's to the first part of your your comment I was thinking about me that shows like maybe it's like the nineteen fifties. Like a train seen a city training, all the guys have their holding up their newspapers and not talking to each other and it's like just see people never talk to each other it's not the phone. The phones that did it but certainly, this idea that it's not the technology that's inaugurating these swarms of sort of antisocial interact you know antisocial behavior or inequity. It's the larger ecosystem. It's the social inputs that actually continue one era after the other to continue to produce the same predictable outcomes and so rather than just say you know get rid of all the technology. Let's look at ourselves like really let's let's use this black mirror as were to shine a light on what we take for granted about our social order and think about addressing the root issues rather than just trying to throw the technology out. Yeah when we see those stories about like you said the better off Ted episode which was that was like two, thousand, nine or something that was very ahead of its time. It was like five years. Later we started having actual stories like that come out at all the time San Press about about this or that facial wreck racial. FIT facial recognition technology, not recognizing people have certain races, Etcetera We see those stories and say, wow, bad technology but that's not really a story about the technology that's the story about our society and which built the technology. Absolutely. There's a wonderful line. There were the one of the bosses said, this is not racism. It's not racism because we're not targeting black people were just ignoring them and. And and for me, that's just a perfect like just expression of zone, much of corporate diversity culture and and all of the things that has less to do with the sensors in the technology. But really how people out so much indifference continues to perpetuate in. It's not the big bad boogie band behind the stream like let me get. It's like I don't give a damn. I don't really care about them that like. Things that the wheels to keep turning well, and so let's talk about that because that is literally the way you put that and that's a great line is that is I don't see color like. Like I literally don't see it Mitek not the algorithm is designed cannot see it but the the thing about I don't see color or these sort of neutral ways of doing it is that it seems a lot less pernicious than the racism or the the racist structures that we were taught about I was talking about in sixth grade right. So we have an image of like you know the police officers seeking the dogs on the Black Youth and the water fountains like really our imagination of what counts as racism is like the IT requires the white hoods wires a snarly like white men who are out to get. You want the vast majority of racist systems just rely on US clocking in and out like just doing our job like put your head down and just follow the rules and so there was A. Really, great study last year this time that came out that was looking at healthcare algorithms and this widely used healthcare algorithm but basically, it was like a digital triaging system like you you come in as a patient and it'll tell the healthcare provider whether you're high risk or low risk, and so if you're high risk, they use this this particular algorithm to get you more resources to to prevent whatever like bad things are predicted to happen to you based on bomb sort past. Data of people like you and so what the researchers who studied this algorithm found is that it was flagging white patients at a much higher rate to receive these coveted resources like more time with your doctor more like services outside of the hospital is basically designed to help people stay out of the hospital and that black patients who are sicker were not getting flagged for these services and so this particular algorithm in many ways was carrying out the the work of a whites-only. Sign. At a hospital like you can't rise. You're not doing it was through this neutral system right and so when the when the researchers opened it up to figure out like what's happening here why this is it like out to get these black patients this system was in fact race-neutral there was they wasn't keeping track of race it all instead, it was using proxy variable. It was using healthcare costs like how much we have spent on particular patients that was used as a proxy. If, we spent more on you. That means that you're higher risk like you're more likely to get sick but we have a system in which people who need care can't get to the hospital don't have insurance. So lots of sick people they're not getting anything spent on them, which makes the system think, Oh, you know what you're fine your low risk. By sleep by using cost as a proxy for healthcare, need this system was perpetuating this past inequality and projecting into the future under the guise of like a neutral system, and so against black patients for years were not getting these these coveted services because the healthcare professionals were relying on this system called optum and so this is just one of many examples were really we see that race neutrality or as you say blindness can be deadly because we're ignoring the past right the data that's being used to train system. It's it has all of these patterns of of. Both institutional and interpersonal discrimination because both are at work in our healthcare system like individuals. And other ways in the policy and the insurance is structured, but it was using that as if it was just a straightforward reflection of reality teaching this algorithm make more decisions like this. And so this is what we get. When we ignore history are we ignore social inequality in the building of technical systems and the people mill building that Algorithm probably had? No idea what they were there was like, Hey, we're just making a little cost algorithm here. Probably if you told them, they'd be like, no, that was that race Caribbean. Direct. Quote from after this. Study came out. That's a direct quote from like a million articles where they were like we didn't try to do this. This is not this is not what we meant to do. But again, we go back to better off Ted indifference is really one of the main drivers of of racism and so hiding behind the kind of I'm not racist but you know whatever comes next is probably going. Yeah. Are there other examples of this the that stand out to you in almost every every significant of our lives where important decisions are being made those who human beings you know the gatekeepers are outsourcing those decisions and consulting technical systems as if they're neutral in the car in our penal system, it's everywhere from every single stage from who gets police in the first place who's paroled who's you know every single stage we have. A risk assessment tools that are being employed that are deeply racially by. The studies are starting to pile up that have been auditing these. In fact now, during the pandemic, there was a system called pattern that was being used to decide who would be released because you know our prisons are overcrowded and so kids running around. So they're like, okay we got to figure out who to let out so that we can sort of you know deal with the overcrowding, and so some places us this pattern assessment again to the to the side risk like who's low risk or high risk and the people who were deemed low risk were the vast majority were white. People who were in white men who were in inmates people who are homeless were high risk. Black. Men were high risk people with mental illness. So all of the most marginal in this already marginal and oppress population were deemed high risk and so were kept in caged where others were released and the difference with something like thirty plus percent of white men were deemed. Eligible for early release versus like six or seven percent of black men. So this and so pattern. This was during the pandemic but those kinds of risk assessment tools are being used up and down the penal system in our education system there are. Examples when it comes to getting like a home loan or other kinds of like loans, and so any area of our lives that you can think of where people are making decisions about a lot of people at once this kind of new Jim Code Discrimination is happening yet just mentioning housing like it. There seems to be a connection back here like to redlining, for example, which I've talked about you know extensively on our show and on this podcast before But 'cause that was like for me really really learning about the history of it and and and the massive affected had on American society. That's to me the most vivid example of how you know these. How how the structure of our society can be set up in a racist way that you can end up perpetuating without even knowing it today like those the the restrictive covenants that they literally had in the suburbs and like Levittown only Caucasians apply will be given these mortgages of course that was overt racism but then hey, forty years later while now if you're just continuing to operate on, Hey, what is the home values of the neighborhood? What is the neighborhood quote crime or not et Cetera? Then you end up perpetuating that original sin right. And all-round, they had to go to go do their little office job at the bank like fill out the little I love to show people like the actual like bureaucratic forms that go into that to sort of demystify it because it's not like a big bad banker staying standing in front and we're like, no get out of here. We don't want you. It's like a like a little bureaucrat sitting there filling out. This many this many Italians live in the neighborhood this many negroes. Of people were getting welfare calculate calculate. Sorry you can't get a home loan to go in here. So it's like for me the forms of harm that we associate with kind of like these scary men of the past Austin carried out by people again, just putting their head down and doing their job in my name my. Mas Neighborhood in Los Angeles Lamar Park I dug up this flyer from the nineteen forties when that neighborhood was getting developed and housing developers trying to entice families to move there and they up wires that basically said come come live. Here you're. We have beneficial restrictions. Your investment will be secured, and of course, beneficial restrictions was a reference to racially restrictive covenants. So they were basically telling them, you buy your house here you have these covenants that ensure that it. Will stay white the neighborhood will stay white and your investment will be secured. Now I was following that kind of rabbit hole and I learned about a black family that was trying to move into the neighborhood, the wilsons, and when they did the homeowners association rallied around and the what. There was a white family that wanted to sell their house to the wilsons and the Homeowners Association sued that White Family in like no, you're gonNA mess up a neighborhood and it's So interesting when you read like the interview of the main plaintiff from the Homeowners Association says, I'm not motivated by any racial animus. This is strictly on economic you know issue and so even in the nineteen forties, he's like I'm not racist but this black family is not moving into this neighborhood for exercise and then so like that rhetoric that we are familiar with now, it's been with us for a while people don't WanNa own like what the the ill-feeling. But they the economic motivation the idea that racism is productive, it doesn't just harm people. Yeah. It actually garners wealth and status and all the good things of life to those who are perpetuating it and so even this guy back in the forties was like you know what? I don't care I don't give a damn about the Wilson's but you're not going to mess up my my you know my property investment lasting say about this story, the ARC is at least. There was a reverend under rabbi who went door to door knocking on people's. Doors in talking to all the neighbors and was like this is terrible. We shouldn't be doing this family. We should let the Wilson's move in, and so they went and kind of did this like labor of trying to like. On. The folks in their neighborhood that this adherence to white supremacy however, sort of. Hidden behind the Languid, the legalese this lawsuit was not like the values that we should be upholding and ultimately through their efforts and others the homeowners association dropped the suit. The Wilson's moved in there was like a party for them, and so this is just one example like we don't always have to wait for Balazs to change to start to like force changes in our relations in in our own backyard and to me the example of this rabbi and Reverend who were like not having it. We're like we're not waiting for the federal government, but our neighborhood is not going to do this, and so that's really I think a call to action for all of us. I do it does raise the question for me though that we were talking earlier in this conversation about and by the way that's incredible story. Thank you for sharing it I'm glad it had a a somewhat happy ending but but we were drawing this contrast between the quote neutral algorithms today and the sticking the dogs on the on the folks on black folks you know in the old days. But what you're describing is a is a story that doesn't sound too dissimilar to right now I mean. We still have homeowners associations. And there homeowners associations that still use cloaked. and. Economic arguments to keep out black people and guess what we still have cops physically attacking allies ing black people who? Love. Really difference or is it same as it ever was out to me? I think that that about insight is like the key because it's not that hasn't been transitioned from an old timey racism to this newfangled racism. So one of the things that I'm really trying to trace in race after technology is the continuity. The fact that now computer codes are doing this work of coating legal codes have long been doing this. There's all kinds of ways in which this coating racism. This embedding into our systems other tools have been used before we've had fancy algorithms, and so that's again the kind of point we started with is it's not simply the technology that's inaugurating new forms of racism. It's providing a new kind of like twist on something that's been with us, and so one of the things I do is really show exactly how legal codes have done this. But even if we go to something a little less tangible like I think about the. Way that we culturally code are names. I start the book talking about People's first names in how we often use that as a proxy for other qualities about people in its on news as a pretext to open doors and shut doors for people, and so there's a great audit study from about two thousand and two or three in which to economists from the University of Chicago sent out thousands of resumes to employers in Boston and Chicago and what they did was they. Just, changed the first name they changed like some of the resumes had names like Emily and Greg son-like, lakisha and Jamal, and all the qualifications were the same the number of years of education, all the things, and they waited to see who the employers would call back and more. We wouldn't be surprised that those white sounding applicant the names will white signing applicants received many more call backs an end calls of interest and the economists calculated this to mean to be equal to. The assumption that those white applicants had eight additional years of experience work experience that they didn't actually have, and so they received fifty percent more call backs, and so this is a way in which our names code certain assumptions about us for good or bad and people use them all the time to actually like provide opportunities for people. Now, someone hearing bad. The results of that study might think will man humans are crap. Like we want we have this implicit bias discriminating. So should we let computers make the decisions about employment? You know like backs the ship it's like, okay acknowledging are biased and then saying, okay, let's let this AI powered system in which I sit here in front of the screen and it kind of tallies, all of these data points and then what these firms that are selling this do they say now we'll compare job seekers scores. To those of existing top performing employees in our company in order to decide who to flag is desirable hire or who to reject, and so again, the assumption is that this system which is presumably created by human beings and had to be taught how to judge applicants is somehow be more neutral and fact that doesn't turn out to be the case. Like if you in your own company I've been hiring mostly, men are mostly white guys for the last fifty years and that's your base your that's your standard for who good employees is, and now you're judging everyone else according to that. However, you code that in terms of body language, posture accent, and all the things that the AI systems keeping track of. You're likely going to get more of the same and the dangerous is that people actually think that that system is more neutral than say a person looking through resumes in deciding I don't want Jamal working here you know. We'll is a simple way to put it is like. A is. I'm an AIX, but I've played around with May is I've talked to somebody experts on the show you train them on data right? Like a very common form of ai now is a neural network. It's sort of a general learning machine. You give it a whole bunch of data. It sees patterns in the data without you even knowing how it's quite doing it right and then it's able to tell the difference between. An be well if you're training the system on a racist society, right? You're you're saying, let's let's it on every employee in America and you know what? How much money they make and how many skills they have. CETERA well, of course, it's GonNa. You'RE GONNA end up with a that says Oh. Yeah. White people are more qualified than black people because in the system I currently have those are all the lawyers and. paralegals and accountants right. In your it gets the more racist and sexist. It becomes like we were judging intelligence by how closely admires human decision making so like this intelligence and quote is actually like the most racist and sexist version of human. thinking, and so in fact, a couple of years ago Amazon's own hiring algorithm was weeding out women precisely because that their workforce is predominantly male. So it was like seeing these resumes with like you know Laura or Tunisia was like Oh this company doesn't want this click check it out but then once they got rid of gender names it got smarter and started looking okay. This applicant was on the women's Chess Club throw that out this applicant went to Bryn mawr throw that out and so and then it started looking at how Talk about their work. Kind of additives people use in the and we know through other social psychological research that that you know that has a gender dimension to it. The kind of language we use to describe our work. So got even more intelligent. It was like, okay like throw those people out and so eventually Amazon had to recall this whole thing. So Amazon can't get right then we. Pretty wary about like outsourcing these really important decision. Systems we sumer neutral. I WanNa ask you about what we could be doing otherwise but we got to take a quick break. We'll be right back with more Ruhollah Benjamin. WGC You offers a quality degree program that is affordable flexible and even makes it possible to graduate. 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What we could do differently I you're a science fiction fan. Aren't you I know that you use science fiction your work yeah. You take a class this fall black mirror race at technology and justice. That sounds great. I wish I could take that class. Yeah Fun. It's GonNa be fun well. What is what is Why the focus on science fiction and and and what do you? What does it change? I'm sorry let me take that back. Let me let me add to that question Well, why the focus on science fiction and why is it important the question of who gets to imagine the future that we're going to have that that question of imagination I'm curious about why as we think our way towards a solution, why should say I? You know my earlier work before I got to all this stuff around Ai Algorithms was in the life sciences and so my first book was about stem cell research and regenerative medicine. So I was hanging out with all of these really fantastic scientists that were doing cutting edge work Growing things like heart cells in a petri dish in a lab so that say if you're relative needed a heart transplant rather than having a donor, the idea hope is that one day we can reverse engineer your their own cells and grow them a heart from their own their own cells so that their body rejected, right cool. Like you know it's like out of this world and so like hanging around people that are doing this dislike as their day job. Than anyone else seems like this is like this is science fiction but I realize talking them how many people Were initially, like the their interest in science technology was sparked by seeing like a star trek code or some wild like reading some interesting thing in a book and so like from a young age like those seeds are planted and then they eventually. Follow their pursuits and then some a small slice of those people actually get the opportunity, the scholarships that education you know the mentors, the institutional affiliations to be able to take early You know I those ideas that sparked when they were young and actually get to materialize it in an actual lab where now they're growing actual heart cells are developing a scanner like they had on star Trek to say, okay let me figure out what's wrong with you and so for me, it started with realizing how important imagination is to the things that end up becoming science and technology for the individuals and similarly for me but also like there was a real lopsided investment in imagination. Like I would be one of the few social scientists in these spaces and I would be like okay, that's great. That's nice. Will be able to grow people's Oregon's now what about the fact that so many millions of people can't even get like the basic healthcare like now we're in the middle of pandemic like can't get a test for this deadly. You know this deadly virus like how do we match up this great imaginative, an actual economic investment in these cutting edge things with a lack of investment in some basic like social provisions and social safety nets in healthcare, and oftentimes my questions around that those would be cast as far fetched like Oh we can't ever ensure. Oh. There will always be people who will have to die for the common good like. Mind basic questions about like public health or the common good like that was seen as the thing that was out of this world will never be able to do. So for me, it's like how how can we have so much optimism around sort of biological regeneration or ai and so little imagination and so little investment social ills in our social wellbeing right and so it's that's animates me as like okay right now. Our collective imagination is being monopolized by the people who are able to do all this fancy shit whereas people who just want like to be able to take their kid to the Er when they crack their chin open play riding their bike they're the ones who have to sit there and like hope that thing closes up because they can't afford to get there we'll. That's what all my gosh you're clarifying so much about the techno utopian. World View May because what it is is these are folks who say that our social problems are inherently on addressable, right? They say. Racism equality like all these things. You know you can't fix those two thorny like all like all who's going to what we need to do our technological fixes that are gonNA skip right over them. Right. That'll. That'll that's the easy thing to do. That's the thing I can address. It's Elon Musk silk and traffic. We beat up on him all the time I'll show. But I really do think this is not being gratuitous I. Really think is a great example. He's sitting in traffic going I hate being in traffic I know I'll build a tunnel so that rich people like me can skip the traffic and go right underneath right now first of all I don't know why the motherfuckers by helicopter like he's rich enough to get a helicopter. Why is he in traffic to begin with this problem has already been solved for rich people do Jeff Bezos is just in a helicopter he's trying to build tunnels all over the place. But why can't Elon Musk? Who is like this? He's made his reputation as being this visionary imaginative give this guy who's like thinking about the future of humanity let's go to Mars. Let's have a DA DA why can't he imagine a world with no traffic? Yes. He's traffic as being an unsolvable social is how could you get rid of it? I don't know there's too many people around whatever why can't he amend? Why can't they ask the question? Well, what if we? How could we get to a world with no traffic which would be a world with I think and hope public transportation more walkable cities. Like you know less. People have to drive an hour to get to work because they can only afford to live out in the suburbs. So more affordable cities, all these sorts of questions but that whole sphere of questions which also involved questions of racing inequality are put in the bucket of unsolvable by our logical because they don't have they can't imagine cellino and they're not they're not. They don't have any reason to, and I love that you used that example because the epigraph for my first book people science was from someone I interviewed and she said before figured out a way to get to the moon, can we just make sure everyone on my block can get to work? Tonight. A perfect. But again, you know it's really like this lopsided investment and. Part of what we have to do is really push back on the inevitability of technology solving all of our all of our problems I was recently talking to a group of students they had. They had organized this conference on innovation over here, Princeton, and one of the other speakers was the guy behind singularity university. So he was like beaming in through zoom in, he gave a talk and he was ending his talk and he he was right before me and he said what he said he's telling this auditorium full of students like. Painting a picture very much like a Elon Musk type picture of the future. This is what's happening you either get on board or you get out of the way you're irrelevant you either signing onto this figure out a way how to navigate, and so it was like the the the inevitability of the future that he is invested in and so the first thing that I said when I got up, there was like he's wrong. He's wrong. No you do have a choice that is not inevitable because that's part of the that sort of anti democratic. Underpinnings of that whole thing is that they really don't want to hear from anyone else like this is the vision of what the the the collective good is and anyone else who raises questions about a critiques. It is painted as anti technology are anti science, and so the last thing I'll say about that is that even the the sort of phrase that we use, we call people luddites miss recognizes who the led lights actually were. They were not again -nology they were against the social costs of technology they were against the fact that the inclusion of this technology into know industry was going to push down the wages was going to have all of these social costs. So they weren't against the machine itself they were against the way that the machine was actually going to reproduce power and inequality, and so even that kind of you know insult that we cast around. A luddite it actually, you might actually be more. Inclined to say, yeah, maybe I am because it's not being against something saying we need to talk about the social costs, these technologies and do better. Are there technologies though just because we've been, we've been shit on technology this conversation. Are. There technologies that fundamentally do shift the balance a little bit I think about how you know our new communications technology have allowed people who were you know took down all the media gatekeepers right and now people who were were formally marginalized are able to be loud spread their message connect now. And then on the side effects is a lot of people who were kept out of media who we don't like you know like the fucking. Like. Oh, like overt like white nationalist, right? Didn't you have a platform and now they do as well. So there's there's a given a take, but but it is there are there any technological advances in your view that did make a positive change? Fear. There's quite a few and the way that I would characterize them as it is not even simply that the technology is the thing that's so radical or subversive were laboratory, but it's like before you even get to designing particular technology you have to identify who is this for what is what is it for Hal? Is it actually going to intervene in business as usual and the subversiveness or the power of a given technology to do that starts well before you start coding well before you start designing programming and So, it has to do with the question that we posed that technology is supposed to answer because of vast majority of especially when we're talking about these risks assessments in automated decision systems, they cast their view on the most vulnerable populations and they try to predict, for example, the riskiness of of youth to get in trouble at school or someone to be on parole or someone to not follow their their meds or something. So it's looking at individuals who are already vulnerable the technologies that I find to be so. Important, actually flip the script and the direction of the technology or the data collection prediction to those who wield power to those who are monopolizing producing risk for the vast majority. So for example, there's a great project called the Anti Eviction Mapping project. So going back I, think you've had desmond on. So and so rather than try to have some kind of risk assessment that tells the landlord. Okay. The renter default on their loan, it puts the tool in the hands of renters and people who are experiencing housing insecurity to actually look and to judge real estate owners and landlords to tell them how these people are treating their tenants and then to be able to mobilize and rally people together in terms of Housing Justice Movement. So Again. The technology doesn't save people. In that case, it gives them the tools and the data to be able to look at where how the trouble is being produced, and then to to move in that direction as a second example along those lines. That's more of a parody example but I like it because it really shows the absurdity of so many of our tools that are used by policing and our car cerro system is called the. White Collar Early Warning System. So it's like this this system where it flattens all of the places in cities were white collar crimes are happening and it has an that. Image of a prospective criminal and the when they designed the algorithm that produces that facial recognition system they use the profile photos of seven thousand corporate executives on link in, and so naturally, the face of a criminal is white male, and so here you have this data mapping, you have this facial recognition system and it's throwing in our face. The fact that the this exact set of crimes populations always go under the radar they always go through the tunnel to go back to your and they are the subject of this. This kind of you know surveillance, you all my that version of the citizen APP you know. Rather. Than citizen at that says, Oh, there was an altercation with a knife at you know a couple of blocks away and you're like, well, I'm not there. So who like Oh but I'm scared now for no reason I want the citizen at that's like, yeah someone's embezzling down Yeah Beware Zeynep. There's a landlord illegally converting an apartment into an AIRBNB. Let's create the techno dystopia for those in power like let's. -nology if we're going to use it in that way in both of those cases in many others, it really starts well, before you start designing to think about how we what we think of has the problem that technology is supposed to solve and too. Often the problem is the racial is community or you you know the the same old kind of problem spaces and so technology needs to subvert that and we have some examples about down the I. Well. What this makes me think I and going back to your point about the lid is is that your argument isn't anti technology it's it's anti techno utopianism anti these sort of views that some has about technology that technology is neutral and it's going to solve our problems But I think you'd argue technology is a is a tool what we need to solve our our social issues and we can use technology as a tool to do that. If we're if we're mindful of it absolutely as long as we keep technology in its place as long as we don't think that technology is going to save us. As like one half of that narrative and so really like putting technology in its place, not as the kind of magical six but as a tool but also recognizing that it doesn't mean that any given tool as neutral because if the point about tool is to calculate the risk of you know someone who's been locked up in a in an unjust system than it doesn't matter who's holding, it was designed to calculate the risk of those individuals it's oppressive, and so it has to do with rethinking that design process. So we can produce tool that can be used in ways that empower communities rather than oppress them. What is the I? Did I be wells just data lab would you tell me about that? Sure. So it's here at Princeton in African, American Studies Department and IT'S A it's an umbrella initiative that connects students, researchers, artists, and community activists in order to design just tools and so over the course of the summer, for example, had ten teams of students working from everything. There was a housing team in a work team in policing team in each of the teams collaborated with a community organization to build some kind of data justice tool that could be used in the context of advocating for some anti-racist. Initiative in the context, of Cova, and so it's a space to create those connections where academics aren't seen as having all the answers like we need to also humble ourselves learn from people who are working in communities about what's actually needed I. Think this those for technologist to I think too often the kool-aid of Silicon Valley. Is Assuming that they can come up with the the interventions Without talking to the people who all of these things are supposed to help right and so and so part of it is really creating an environment that that can happen. So for those who are interested, we posted all of the the tools from the summer at the just state alab Dot Com backslash tools, and you can take a look at what's what's developed over the last few months. It's. Sorry I I a need to edit that moment. Now, I apologize Water. Our free to finish and get back into That sounds so cool. I, want to ask. What do you advise for folks listening right when when they're you know engaging with technology, right? What questions can they be asking about? It to help them improve their relationship with it and and sort of see these systems a little better. Yeah. I think I think what I found in the last few years many more people who aren't necessarily working in the. Tech. sector. Have become rightly skeptical about the promises that were so commonly sort of marketed to us for the last twenty years or so and so I find like the average person I've talked to are thinking critically at engaging these things in basically not taking things at face value like always with like, okay. What's really happening and so I think when it comes to the data that's collected. Behind the screens behind the scenes in terms of all of the things that we use for free as the saying goes if it's three, then you are the product. Your your data is the is the product, and then so I think I remember few weeks ago. zoom made this announcement where they said that people who use their services for free zoom had the prerogative to sell our. You know our all of our communication and data to law enforcement as. But people who paid they add their data would be protected, and so for a week there, my lab decided we not using zoom. Platform but the outweigh the public outrage was so like route and vigorous that within a week zoom reversed course instead. Okay. Okay. Okay. We won't sell, and so that's an example of US collectively voicing a what we want out of these things and not sort of assuming that we just have to submit submit submit when we press those forms like if we think that something is you know is not right when it comes to you know what? My colleague Sean Zubov called surveillance capitalism. For example, we need to speak up this is true save for parents right now, the more that classes have gone online remote. Learning Learning Mitt, learning management platforms like find out what the school that your kid goes to what they're doing what their policy is. Their data policy is about all of that time that your your your kids are on. You know whatever the learning management platform is and I will say that young people in particular are becoming more savvy around this. I know about a year or two ago. There was a students in Brooklyn staged a walkout out of their school, not around the data issue but because they were spending all their time on this learning management platform and saw their teachers like twenty minutes a week. So they were like, this is not education, and so we're not we're not doing this where boycotting and so that's another example. But in both of those examples, you see it's working together. It's like it's not simply a thinking about ourselves as individual consumers like, okay. I'm not going to buy this product. I'M GONNA go to here. That's fine like people should do that. But the more powerful change happens when we team up when we organize like those students in Brooklyn or like the public outrage around zoom, and so I think more and more we really need to stop thinking of ourselves as users because as I say in receptor technology users get used and so. About our relationship to technology as you know really as stored as citizens thinking about holding accountable, what values do we want to be embedded in these structures? Because if we say and do nothing, it's really going to be the same old kind of corporate surveillance values that you know that we see as the kind of dominant ethos of. Surveillance Valley and so we have to we have to voice our our our outrage when it's warranted and we need to be able to articulate proactively like what kind of ecosystem do we want technology to be designed in? What do we want the social inputs to be? Best as in in collective. So finding like your local, just data organization teaming with them too. I really liked that because. We're so used to seeing tech companies as being kind of like. Of Society you know, and for the first twenty years they were, they were all insurgents and these these weird small companies that were making you know really groundbreaking technology and a lot of them had you know there don't be evil type slogans or were they seem chill and they seemed like you know they're the breath of fresh air coming through and and now these the most massive companies in the country, right that have the most entrenched advantage and we need to start looking at them. I think you're right not as users who who are just like clicking a button, but we're members of society. And those companies are also part of our society and what's what sort of relationship do we want to have with them and how much power what kinds of power a wall right with them having exactly and it feels like that conversation is starting to happen I mean just seeing the antitrust hearings that were happening on Capitol Hill couple weeks ago was I mean that would have been unimaginable five years ago and it was still. Not Quite enough but maybe were sort out. Progress Yeah. Absolutely. I mean for me. It's been a dramatic shift just in the last few years in terms of just kind of being like. Oh. iphone seventy feel of millions out. Let's stand in line overnight like to being like people being much more like you know Savvy skeptical about all all of the shiny things, and so I think that Sir, I, love the way that you described it in terms of recognizing that that little image, the image of kind of like the little outliers innovators in their garage like now, the silicon six, these big companies not only are they like the biggest entities, Kinda, monopolizing power and resources in this country. But many of them have networks that are larger than many countries in. The world right and so like in terms of the power that they wield a monopolize, we really are have to are culturally like under put them in a different category of actor and understand what an influence that they're having on public life. But behind private doors like their decisions have such a huge impact. We, got a completely shift up the regulatory infrastructure, the accountability, and and maybe even ask like, do we want them to be that big? Do we want to continue monopolizing even as they failed to pay billions of dollars in taxes every year so they say they're doing all this stuff in the name of the greater. Good but they don't actually put their money where their their slogans are in terms of paying back into the public good and so that's a that's like a basic one. Oh, one thing we need to be demanding in terms of their their Ya. I'm one of those that really struck me from a Tim Wu's book the cursive bigness about. A monopoly in the history of antitrust is that like the original idea when we talk about monopoly and those issues, we talk about them in terms of money a lot of make they make prices higher and they have too much money and and you know inequality and things like that. But the real, the original argument against them was about power was that a single company. Having so much power which about the standard oil or whatever. Right that's so much power. They have more power than the government and then the van, the democracy, which means that it's inherently anti-democratic and we would sat in America we don't want a single person who's the CEO of this company to have that much power and that is happening again with these with look at Jeff. bezos right and how much power he wields over. So many different sectors and that's the question we need to ask is not it's not just economic also power exactly I and the last thing I would just add to that is that you know these companies in these individuals they recognize that the tide is turning they recognize the shift in public discourse I mean even if. We just go to the Cambridge analytica scandal and you know the two, thousand, sixteen, Brexit and election. So part of their reaction, this is something we have to be very wary about an and keeping a vigilant around now they're trying to what I think of as domesticate critique they're trying to create in house these methods of accountability ethics in all about hiring people like in my field. FACEBOOK created this board to oversee what it does and and some of my colleagues rightly called it like facebook Supreme Court, because they're are trying to create like in-house, what really needs to be independent and third party, and so they know that we we'd won't accept the status quo anymore but we have to be careful about what their solutions are to it, which will just be them kind of creating their own mechanisms of at least at least giving sort of a face of ethics. Sore we're trying to be publicly accountable and we need to say enough with all of that those slogans in all of that, we need something independent. That's in the power of people to be able to govern not in house in terms of these companies attempts to do that. Yeah we need a voice to like this is this is a society and a democracy, and so democratically, we should all have a voice in how are data is used and who's wielding power and these issues. I think that's absolutely right well I I can't thank you enough for coming on the show. There's been such a awesome fun conversation. My pleasure is great to talk to You Adam I. Hope once I get another book dead I. Hope You invite me back. It's really. Learned, I've learned so much from talking to you and I. And other our I would learn just as much. Thank you so much. Live pleasure. Take care. Well thank you how Benjamin for coming on the show I really hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did if you did please leave us a rating or review wherever you subscribe I know I know every podcast says that it really does help us open up apple podcasts opened up spotify open up that Google podcast give us a five star review. If you like to show if you WanNa, send me a comment about what you might see on the show in the future why shoot an email, the factual Adam counter dot net, and I will be happy to take a look that is it for us this weekend factually I wanNA. Thank our producers, Dana Wiccans, and Sam Rodman. Are Engineers, Ryan Connor and Brad Morris Andrew W K for our theme song. You can find me at Adam dot net or at kind of wherever you get your social media. Thank you so much for listening. We'll see you next week on factually.

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Turning Skills Into Action

Worst Year Ever

1:04:06 hr | 1 year ago

Turning Skills Into Action

"Get a credit card. That gives you what you need now. A low interest rate on everyday purchases and a place to transfer high interest rate balances. The ten fed gold contactless card is our lowest interest rate credit card. You can even earn a one hundred dollars statement credit new. Spend fifteen hundred dollars in the first ninety days. Join Penn Fed and together. We can help you keep more of what's yours visit. Pem Dot org slash gold card to receive any advertise product. He must become a member of contact insured by. Ncua favor news. Podcast had more more good news. More real talk more pop culture more memes much. Maurier many much. Moore's more on more on more and that's news o'clock every weekday afternoon. We've got all the news and pop culture. That reminds you that there's life outside your apartment. It's what you want to know when you need to know it. Listen to news o'clock on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to worst year. Ever a production of iheartradio added everybody. Welcome back to the incredibly aptly named show. Worst year ever. My Name's Katie. Stole My name is Robert Evans. In my allergies are exploding horribly. I apologize with that. That's okay apology accepted today. We are joined by a very special guest Michelle Manas who is a community organizer and the CO founder of Bernese Coffee Shop. Hi Michelle Hi. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being here. Michelle and I actually met right before the reality of Corona virus really hit here in La like riding those transitioning days. I'd say we were. We were both at the very last. I'm assuming it was the last bar the class that you took. It was the last one that I took. And we kind of connected in the bathroom and struck up a conversation. She started telling me all about the amazing or saying that she was already doing to provide resources to people here in Los Angeles who might need them during the corona virus. You start by telling us a little bit about the projects you've been working on over the last few weeks In kind of how you got them started. Yeah thanks. Katie. Is Pretty interesting when the way we met because I think there was several women standing around in the locker rooms lamenting the virus. And you mentioned your political podcast in my ears. Perked UP AND I. I don't do a lot of that talking or like socializing those kinds of faces. Kinda keep to myself But when you started talking about your podcast I came very interested because something that that I think is really important that that I think we're always working on his. How do we amplify the things that are happening in our communities when the mainstream media won't cover it and it's really important to get the word out about some of the ways it's communities coming together to take care of each other and to provide resources and infrastructure beyond what the governments are able to do right now and so a couple of projects? I've been working on a main focus right now is called project mask. La Or Project Mask Los Angeles On Social Media and the purpose of that project is we signed up several dozen. Volunteers soloists and Many of them are costume designers. Many of them are amateur. Sodas and we have been coordinating the project so that we can do batches of masks to the most at risk members of our community so so far. We've been providing masks to frontline volunteers into a essential workers to assisted living facilities and shelters and places like that around the community. We're working with a couple of city council members so far they're helping the point us in the right direction regarding like who really needs these masks than and quickly and it's been really wonderful to be able to participate in helping to keep each other safe One of the other things that I'm working on right now's urban partners. Los Angeles which is an organization that has been providing food bank over in Korea town for the food. Bank has gone on for over twenty years and a couple of my good friends are on the board of that organization and they were quickly trying to make sure that they could scale fast enough to layer in all of the safety and sanitary needs to continue the Food Bank for the members of the community. That already rely on it and In the time since the corona virus outbreak has started the community reliance on food bank has doubled and so continue to grow as people continue to be out of work so that one is really important as well and we'll Leah all of for listeners in our after civilization so that everyone can check out all those wonderful things. Michelle is working on. I'm so blown away by that. You know one of the things that struck me when we we first met was not only that you were organizing to to to fill a need but you were anticipating a need and forming a plan to help before the full reality of all of it really hit and I just found that incredibly impressive how An e and the project mask La Hadn't you didn't even mention that to me yet. You just pulled all of this together. Incredibly rapidly. How many people are you working with on that project specifically and and how did you specifically get all of these people together store well so originally? It was the idea of a friend of mine who is a professional costume designer. But she and she's a incredibly progressive politically minded and She volunteered for years but She didn't have the capacity to organize it so she came to me and said listen. I'm connected to all these people who so in these communities. I'd like to find a way to organize them or to give them a place to to make these mass. She had her finger on the pulse of the the need for masks kind of like happened with us in La at the same time as everybody had the same idea around the country like groups of mask making people popped up right and so Started with Google form and when we realized how many people were willing to sell for a project like this. We had to get organized very quickly. The team now is about twelve people like the court organizing team. We have A full delivery team. We have a full laundry team with about dozen a dozen people on each of those teams spread throughout the city and we have protocols for each of the for the cleanliness for each of the teams and a coordinator for each of those sort of buckets of work. We also have an amazing graphic designer has been doing all the great graphics that you see on the social media and doing like the stickers that were putting on the bags and things like that and so and just a couple of really amazing folks who stepped up to one to organize this and make sure that it was effective and You know there's this movement in Los Angeles is full of talented people after give out to Who has really become like my co organizer on this project Her name is a Straw and she is our lead sewer or lead slowest and also our nurse consultant. She recently Pastor nursing exam and she's been really carrying the weight of the research and the contact for the slowest volunteers regarding what material works. And what doesn't how to go about creating masks in a sanitary way how to keep your workspace clean. So many of those things that we've been able to implement have come from her experience on the medical side so It's a really wonderful and active and talented team and like I said in addition to a couple of dozen Sewing volunteers we have about ten driving volunteers and I think fourteen laundry volunteers all sort of you know what I've come to terms with the flight patterns throughout the. I'm like I'm not a math person but we have an amazing delivery coordinator who's really been taking on like how to get things from A to B and it's been pretty beautiful so far. What's The workflow lake? You're talking about the the laundry services and everything like that so like you have people making masks and then you have a pickup to take it to be laundered to make sure that it's disinfected and all of that yes So basically and that's part of it's it's a large logistical operation. My role is the logistics coordinator. I don't so I do driving But I don't have laundry at home and that's one of our requirements. Is that all the laundry? Volunteers have washer dryer in their home. In order to prevent any additional risk of contamination and and so the the slowest make requests for materials and we have people donating materials So we get them. Whatever they need within our capacity they produce you know a bulk of masks maybe ten or maybe fifty or maybe a hundred or two hundred. We send our driver's going get them and they go to a laundry volunteer and they are laundered and then from the laundry volunteer at at the laundry. Volunteers a location. The masks are put into their own individual Sandwich Baggie with an information card about you know shirts wash and things like that and how to wash the mask before using it each or after using it each time. All the masks. Go to a hub. We have to distribution hubs. One is Bernie's coffee shop in mid city. And one is the food not bombs collective in Silverlake and the hub will count them and log them and then batch them into correct amounts for the drivers to pick up and take them to their end user. This is all incredibly well-thought-out. I'm I'm very right. Fulling this thing together but it's been so amazing to watch it come together real. I'm sure there's a lot of learning on the fly as you're going doing this the organizer. You just sort of redeploy. Your skills for whatever's needed at the time you know and like the delivery coordinator is amazing. Because he's an uber driver for part of his profession for his income and so he has an idea of what what's convenient. What makes sense with the city layout looks like what drivers go through and then again like all of us having to layer in these safety unsanitary practices to protect each other and recipients of the masks? Well it's clear that this is not your first time. Doing community organizing. It was clear from our very first conversation. And then when actually at a chance to talk with you before we recorded? I was truly blown away by all of the incredible work. That you've you've done over the years and I would love for you to take some time in describe some of those experiences in the other things that you've worked on sure well Kind of where to start You know I was always what I would call progressive. I don't necessarily identify as liberal anymore. Mom I do identify as like a leftist Progressive Socialist Democratic Socialist A Big Bernie supporter. I have been since two thousand eight when I first learned about a time representative sanders and You know he was saying the things that that no one else was saying that I was thinking in my friends were thinking and and no one was saying it on any public airwaves from any important pulpit so it was very You know it was very important to me to continue to follow him. And when he announced in two thousand were teen that If no other progressive candidate stepped up to run for President. He would run and so you know when he announced that he was running in Twenty fifteen. I found some people and I'm lucky to live in a city like Los Angeles where there are more of us than there are some resources And there are beautiful community here and several of us just wanted to find an office where we could volunteer for Bernie Phone banking canvas saying This was Kinda before this was right before text was really big and so we there was about half a dozen of us. It's time we formed a group called Team Bernie L. A. And we found out later that we had the first full time all volunteer office for Bernie Sanders in the state of California and that was in south. La The Lamar Park neighborhood and then from there about two two to three weeks. Before the primary in California in two thousand sixteen we launched Bernie's coffee shop and that location set record numbers per phone bankers in canvassers. At the end of the two thousand sixteen campaign Senator Sanders gave a shout-out to our district. And the the numbers we had done there and so it was pretty amazing Whole Story Behind. Bernie's coffee shop too but I think it was Senator Sanders. I'll always be able to say you know. Thank you Bernie for awakening the fulltime activists in mean because I always had passions for organizing people to to help each other and to build community. But I didn't have those words yet and I didn't have the tools yet and when when when Bernie's campaign brought us all together we learned from each other and I'm very grateful for that. Yeah I've got more questions for you regarding Bernie but I I wanna can you give us a little bit of history of brains coffee shop because it's actually kind of a cool story. It's a local Los Angeles landmark. That had been closed down for a while correct. Yeah so it's the old coffee shop on Wilshire and Fairfax many people who were longtime Angelenos. Remember when it was a diner in a restaurant And the owners of that space you know. It needs to much work to turn it back into a functioning restaurant right now. There are plumbing issues that would have to be dealt with and things like that but you know the family that owns the lot of our big Bernie supporters and it was originally going to be a media stunt In back in twenty sixteen. We've we brought together a team of like filmmakers and artists and organizers and builders and things like that and it was going to be. You Know Janis Historic Janis. Coffee Shop One night only as Bernie's coffee shop and we did this big gorgeous. Unveiling and a whole bunch of media showed up Francis Fisher a cut the ribbon with the big. You know scissors and things and those of us who were organizers. Kind of went to the to the owners of the landlord instead. What about keeping this thing and and inviting people to come volunteer here and they were with it so so. That's exactly what we did and again you know and I'll send you some pictures you know afterwards but these very large inside and there's two main counters kind of an L. shape and the long counter was was filled with canvassing packets. And then like food and snacks for the volunteers. All the booze were filled with foam bankers the whole day the all week long and then on the short side of the counter we did merchandise peop- of brought US boxes of Bernie's books t shirts anything we could think of. You know we had the campaign at the time. Bring US packs of bumper stickers. Anything we can do to bring in a few bucks so we could feed the volunteers so we could keep the lights on so we can keep volunteering for Bernie and it's really beautiful as you said. The building is a historical cultural landmark in Los Angeles. So we don't do any major changes to the structure of the building besides keeping it up and so there's an interesting side story if you've seen the mural the you know it's an old fifties diner with the picture and there's a is a gorgeous. Gi Style Mural on the Fairfax side of the building that after two years or so somebody in the neighborhood started to complain and we got a notice we were going to have to take the mural down and we rallied the troops we sent letters we created a slide. Show we asked for a hearing about forty people in from the community showed up to that hearing about with Historical Cultural Society here in La and they we had a slide show about political art and the art history of the space and being right there in museum row and being a neighbor to lack Ma and the Petersen Automotive Museum. And that's the beautiful thing that came out of that was that rather than makers take the mural down they actually declared the mural its own historical I love that. Wow that's a lot of happy tears that day on we. We had looped in the artist now based in Arizona and we were like they're trying to make us take your mural down like can help us and he was so happy. We were all so happy. That's a great story implied. I'm Robert Evans In this really is the worst year ever since we're all trapped inside fearing a pandemic depression anxiety Relationship Issues. These are all on the rise right now and thankfully. Better help us here too. Well help Their an online therapy company. They let you connect with a counselor and a safe private online environment. You can video chat. You can talk to the phone and you can exchange unlimited text messages. These people are here to help you. You just fill out a questionnaire to help. Assess your needs and you'll get matched with a counselor in less than twenty four hours. This is a truly affordable option. And Right now. Our listeners are going to get ten percent off their first month with the Discount Code W Y E for worst year ever so when I get started today. Good a better. Help Dot com slash W. y. e. That's better help dot com slash W. Y. E. Now you can get professional help whenever you want it wherever you are talk to a therapist online and get help today get a credit card. That gives you what you need now. A low interest rate on everyday purchases and a place to transfer high interest rate balances. The ten fed gold contactless card is our lowest interest rate credit card. You can even earn a one hundred dollars statement credit new. Spend fifteen hundred dollars in the first ninety days. Join Penn fat and together we can help you keep more of what's yours. Visit Penta Dot org slash gold card to receive any advertise product. You must become a member of pen. Fat Insured by. Ncua over this nice moment down just a little bit. I think it gives us a slight tangent from our organizing talk. I think a lot of progressives were delta kind of a blow last week when when Bernie officially suspended his campaign and we've seen a lot of conversations you know debates about whether or not Bernie supporters will be voting for Joe Biden You know people have very reasonable fears about that or or qualms with Joe Biden and I. It's something that we are all going to have to spend the next several months figuring out for ourselves and think we're all a little bit curious How you're feeling right now. What you're thinking about all of that. Yeah I mean this. This particular burn supporter will not be voting for Joe Biden Yam. I'm well aware and just as horrified as everyone else about the problems with trump in the administration that we have However you know I I I don't. I don't need to tell any credentials but I did do. My undergrad and my masters in political science and global politics and I am horrified as well by the steady march to the right For the United States that has been occurring pretty much since the Reagan years. I do want to ask what we're still on the subject of like you know. Joseph robinet Biden. Do you think your calculus would be any different if you lived in a swing state somewhere aware that like literally kind of 'cause 'cause 'cause I'm in this point of I'm not gonNa vote for Biden either but I live in a state where the state's GonNa go for Biden right so I'm not. I'm not on an electoral since worried and I. I'm curious as to whether or not that's entered into your calculus at all me. It doesn't and I don't envy the position of people who think like I do like we do Who are in swing states. I mean my my own mother. You know is huge Bernie supporter and is very proud of the work. That we do. She's in New Jersey and feels the need to participate in defeating trump. Which I don't have any lame or ill will towards anybody feels that way. I totally get it and understand for me. It's not just about Bernie Our our eyes are open now to the complacency and the corruption of the establishment within the Democratic Party the this sort of jaded bitterness with which they operate. Many of our friends here in In at the local level attempt to participate in the Democratic Party at the local and state level and are consistently shut down. It's a very toxic environment to attempt to participate in local party politics as a you know as a progressive And what we've been saying about Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders for a long time is that. He is is really pretty down the middle politically on the global political spectrum. However as I was saying you know. This country has been marching to the right for several decades. And it's it's it's the sort of right off a cliff phenomenon. We are now in in a corporatist fascist sort of scenario and I personally my ideals bigger and beyond Bernie Sanders. Don't allow me to participate in endorsing that. Sort of Political structure. I think we need to overhaul and I don't I don't identify myself as like Bernie or bust. I don't think that it doesn't have to be like a a dichotomy like thought but I do think we need to think extremely critically about the situation in which we find ourselves because you know Joe Biden and and Donald Trump are far more similar to each other than than Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden are right and so a lot of people feel that the the shaming of Okay Bernie supporters. It's time to fall in line. A lot of us are not Democrats and don't own vote to anybody in the Party and we came out and attempted to get involved and Bernie Sanders asked us to be Democrats for a little while to to to participate in the power structures that exists in attempt to bring that power back to the people and the the DNC in the establishment within the Democratic Party rather than than being in awe of Bernie's ability to bring young people into the party and to bring a diverse coalition into their party. They attempted to stop it. At every turn and ultimately they seem to have succeeded in this moment and the message that we received was loud and clear. You are not wanted. Yeah I mean I don't I don't disagree with any of your calculus there and I in fact feel the same way but I also like I have to. I think that I probably would wind up swallowing a lot of things in order to do what I could to get trump out because while he biden have a lot similar like I. The the person that I live with right now is a is a Chinese national and just the changes in her life and the lives of a lot of friends of mine who are immigrants as a result of all of this like there are things that wouldn't be as much of a problem as they are right now. If Biden were an office and I guess that's kind of like I feel two ways about it because I agree with you like the Democratic Party. If it weren't if the Republican Party didn't exist. The Democratic Party would be the most despicable organization in the United States. But yeah but at the same point there is a difference the two of them. Yeah there there is. I think perhaps the I don't Wanna I don't WanNa get a sort of caught up in. Who's worse kind of questions? I think that the the issue of being asked to vote for the lesser of two Okay for instance right. Part of my work has included being a founding member of the metoo movement here in Los Angeles Right. I'm not talking about big METOO. I'm not talking about times up. I'm talking about you. Know the the grassroots movement of women survivors to believe women and survivors here in Los Angeles and We did our first big march with several thousand people in. I think November of two thousand seventeen and in addition to that. I've done also a lot of work with and for and alongside immigrants and immigrant communities direct action Video and written content around the kids in cages. Things like that Working with a native groups that are not only You know horrified by the situation of people crossing the border. But also continuing to suffer under the continued colonization of of the current day right and so I- Nobody can speak for an entire community. There's differences about opinions about Biden trump and Bernie within immigrant communities. There's differences in the metoo movement. But I'll tell you that that my friends that I'm connected to that are still actively organizing metoo They will not be endorsing Joe Biden and I think we know why you know And the biggest fear that I have right now is that Last name is for getting me Tara. Tara Reid is that the Democrats will attempt to vilify Tara Reid and if we start to see that happen that is just absolutely unforgivable So you know an image in the immigrant communities you also have to understand that people were calling Obama the deportable in chief for years before president trump was even a possibility obama the more people than Bush you know. Eight years of Obama was worse for in many ways for our immigrant communities than eight years of Bush With the possible exception of you know the vilifying of Muslims after nine eleven. But you know what we're talking about two parties that in in their own way right and you could argue one potentially more dangerous because they attempt to attempt to make it look like they're being your friend you know they attempt to look good on the social issues but Nancy. Pelosi is up there. You know what is she doing? Her Golf Clap. And she's ripping up trump's speech. But you know the very same week. She's approving his military budget. We don't perform it. Yeah exactly so. I'm just not interested in that and I know some people will say we will. How do we protect the people that are suffering under this administration currently in these horrific ways? I think we take to the streets. I think we we flood into the we fled into the party structures in the power structures and take them over what you guys are doing here with independent progressive media all these things matter But voting for someone who is more of the same and you know holds many of the ideological Problems that the current president is. I just can't you know I can't be a party to that. It's tough. I've said this several times on this show just the realization. I mean I. It's not a realization. I've known this. But this cycle has certainly underscored it that we are vastly different parties. Trying to get one person nominated vastly different political affiliations. Here and yes. We align ourselves with the democratic establishment in order to try to progress this agenda you know the philosophy and it's it's continually disappointing. I feel bolstered and this might be mean being naive. This might be being. I'm someone that's that tends to view towards hopeful because that's my serve my coping mechanism with life I'm I'm I'm proud of us. I'm proud of the gains that have been made. I'm I'm I'm disappointed by what's happening right now. And I'm also Invigorated by how how many people I see now that align with me And I think that we are further ahead than we've ever been. I find myself veering between two things. Which is that like. I grew up a very conservative and I watched as these things like the fringe beliefs. That like when I was a kid my parents will be no one really agrees with these people. These people aren't normal conservatives like they don't have any power or anything and they never will and I watched them very methodically very carefully take over the Republican Party and they did it by compromising. They did it. By voting with people who were twenty thirty percent on board with them and then either marginalizing. Those people are pushing them further because those folks were power hungry and I watched it get to the point where now my parents are endorsing. All of the views that when I was younger they said were were not representative of normal conservative. So I I am not a person I have very. I would say very very far. Left political beliefs Much more so than than Mr Sanders even But I I have watched a radical political party takeover. A mainstream political party so. I don't believe it's impossible at the same time. I also recognize like where the hour is like because of how how much progress. The far right has made in taking over the Republican Party. We don't have twenty-five years right right there. For a variety of reasons. We have twenty five dollars. Yeah maybe we bought ourselves a bit of time with Corona virus. Yeah that's one of the upshots of it. I guess but I I so I'm not I'm not someone I don't reject electoralism out of hand but also I don't know like taking to. The streets is all well and good but I have seen one of the things that's been really frustrating to me is how Even a lot of like the progressive left his kind of thrown anti-fascists street activists under the bus Because of the way you know how it and I don't know I guess maybe the mask issue has been sort of one. Thanks to the corona virus. Do People Aren't GonNa Complain About that. So much in the future your forward thinking the big task is how do we? I mean really the question that we're all asking dancing around I think is. How do we get a general strike going? Because that's that's what's necessary like the hour is late enough that we need to. We need to get enough of America on board a simple list of demands. That would take sizable chunks. Like the big issues facing us That we can have some breathing space to figure out the rest and I. I guess you're better at organizing than I am for damn sure you have a lot more experience with this. What do you how do we? How do we St- you think we start doing that? How do we save the world? Please answer questions. Yeah they say that. Luck is a combination of persistence in timing. And I'm a pretty firm believer in that that you know. We get opportunities in cycles right if we had attempted to throw a march about surviving sexual violence without the media moment. That had happened. You know it wouldn't have had four thousand people and it wouldn't have had international media covering it right. We had a moment where we looked at each other. You know we're all sitting around at Bernie's coffee shop and we looked at each other and said well. We have an opportunity to make a splash on this issue. Right now if we move quickly you know and so it's it's really about when when is when of the people going to be ready so I know one one thing that you guys were they talked to Katie about off. Line was Working with The rent issue and reclaim our homes and the tenants unions and the fact that you folks have been covering those issues I think it's an amazing moment for reclaim our homes. Which is you know families. Basically a house Lewis Families announced families moving into vacant houses that are on public property right. They're owned by CAL. Trans and they've been sitting in some cases for decades empty. The single family homes in you know nice average or above average neighborhoods that are sitting boarded up because they're owned by CAL Trans and they're not being used and so what we have now is support for the idea that people should not have to be on the street right so you can get public support for something like a housing occupation in a moment like this where the corona virus is a top of. Everyone's mind and people are not supposed to be outside and yet we're allowing families to live on the streets and so it's a big difference in in the narrative because of because there's a larger public narrative happening. I think that organizing were things like a rent strike and a and a loan strike could get us to a general strike. But here's the issue with a general strike. The biggest impact of general strike is people not going to work which most people are already not doing so part of what we could do in. This moment is capitalized on the idea of well. Hey maybe it really is those grunt workers that Howard the damn economy. That are the engine. Because when people can't go to their minimum wage jobs in broadscale the whole damn thing is shutting down globally right. I saw a mean floating around. That said You know people tell mother. Earth can possibly shut down global capitalism. We can't possibly close down the economy to deal with climate change and mother earth goes. Here's a virus practice. I know I that was one of the first things I was thinking in. All of this is like wow. We've shown that we actually can mobilize on a great big scale and we can see rapid results from that. We can see the earth start to regrow a little bit of a sudden. You have people talking about universal basic income purcell healthcare. You know people talking about again like masses of people sleeping outside and sleeping in the streets and we have the we were talking about it in a way that really affects us all right because no matter how wealthy you are it still is. GonNa mess you up when you go to get gas and you can't touch that that gas or you want to get your coffee and your coffee shop is close down you know and really starting to force us to consider the role that we have in our interconnectedness and why it sense to be able to. Canada implemented monthly. You be I almost immediately. Many other are doing the same. South Korea is leading the way in identifying cases and and and Issuing the the social distancing type measures to keep people from spreading this thing and they're listening in if the people are listening because in many other places around the world You know the leadership of the countries and the formation of the governance is all about the interconnectedness the people whereas in America. We've really built a pride on. This sort of Libertarian. Sort of every man for himself. I'm I'm not concerned with my neighbor. Has what they need as long as I have what I need. And you know you've asked about what to do about what to do about the facts that we have to deal with reality how it is right and we have to deal with the fact that we have this monster in the White House and we could continue to go in the wrong direction. If we're not very careful in this moment and I agree but I I start to take the perspective and when I take my by my humanity hat off right and I let myself get out of the anger for a second and I sort of put my political scientists hat on and I go. We'll we'll look at this grand experiment right. The the great American experiment has lasted. Perhaps three hundred years before you know seems to have peaked and the bottom you know in my opinion during the FDR ears numb and the bottom has fallen out from it. And you know. I'M NOT GONNA. I don't advocate any which way I'm not. I'm not married to any any path right now. I think that regardless of what happens we have a responsibility to help and save as many people as we can and we have a responsibility to each other first and foremost because those in power are so incredibly disconnected from what we're going through that you know. I I do support one of the biggest things that that Bernie Sanders gave us was the will and the drive and the understanding of the importance of running for office so as much as you know I may leave that that top of the ticket blank Come November You know absolutely devoting all the way down the ballot for all the progressives that I can find that are attempting to take this power structure back for the people because it does involve getting involved in your community running for your local seats. Everything from Dogcatcher. You Know School Board. All the way on up and really advocating within those spaces for progressive policies. And that's what I was talking about when I said it's a bit of exposing yourself to some toxicity because you know within these establishment spaces. There's a lot of gas lighting telling progressives if these policies are possible and we need to be realistic and then we look around the world and go were the ones that are being unrealistic. Here you know. Yeah and I've been speaking of gas lighting. Did you see Barack Obama's endorsement video? Today and Hodge Lemon is anders in it. I didn't read about it. I perhaps we'll have the stomach for it later. I have avoided it so far. Boy howdy read about how by Obama. I voted for Obama twice. And then out that he. He came into office he was. We were bombing two countries and when he left office we're bombing seven countries. He had he had an opportunity to lift up Bernie Sanders and continue towards progressivism. And you know He. He made his decision. He made it clear in my mind. And I feel completely duped by the Obama years. Oh I thought you were going to say that's a three hundred percent improvement so like yeah look at look at where we? Everyone been bullied here host of stuff. They don't want you to know in ridiculous history as a podcast. 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Maybe I should run the company. I would keep the jingle like a good neighbor state. Farm is there but I would change the tune like a good neighbor. State farm is there. That was better right on working with reclaim our homes. I wanted to talk to a little bit about. I guess you'd say like a legalism which has been really pushed out of kind of mainstream left-wing politics for a while and I think reclaiming our homes is the first time I've I've seen something that is widely popular in seems to be getting some some traction on a larger scale that is based around. Sometimes we have to break the law to do the right thing and I i. I've seen like the Republican Party. Already got bored breaking the law to make their things happen a while ago and I think that This idea that like okay. We'll if there's homes here that are owned by the government. Maybe we just open them up. I see that as one of the more this understanding that There's not actually any value in just being polite and waiting your turn and holding off on doing something necessary because it'll make people angrier violate the law. And I'm I'm curious as to. I don't know whether or not you're even thinking about it in that sense or or or what. But that's that's something that has occurred to me in this and I think something that has a lot of potential for future necessary movements as we encounter food shortages and medical shortages in the like. Yeah Yeah and I just want to clarify. I'm not organizing with reclaim our homes. I've I've been volunteering with them and supporting them. Yeah my friend and mentor is good friends. With one of the lead organizers with reclaim our home so I'm I'm you know grateful to be able to be to be able to tap in and really find ways to help like we've delivered groceries to the families. were organizing to get them some of the equipment they need and what what's really happening though. The hard work is is. The volunteers are taking shifts to help guard the community because there's backlash from residents from detractors from police So you know it's a it's a very very You know sensitive situation and regarding your question about thinking about it in terms of legalities I mean. Listen I'm a I'm a socialist. I'm not an anarchist. I'm I'm only. I'm only really the type of person that wants to see a just society so I believe in a strong society that is built as a collective. I believe that we are all in this together and believe in following the rules when the rules are to benefit the most or the all right but unfortunately we don't live in a society where the rules are set up to benefit most or. They're all we live in a society where the rules are set to benefit the status quo and the elite. I mean just this. You Know Corona virus response rate now is is just resulting in another massive transfer of wealth to the top to Wall Street right while a parcel. A little twelve hundred dollars for us like that doesn't even cover half of people's Renton Los Angeles you know. And they WANNA dangle that in front of us as a one time thing while we're hearing the headlines about other countries that are getting a monthly you be I during this and things like that and they're leaving it up to individual companies an individual industries to determine how they're gonNA handle things or individual cities in the governors are looking at the federal government. Like is it really all on the? Uh Us you know and and listen to this president speak and and much as I hate the Democrats. Nobody wants to hear you blame the Democrats right now. People want answers. Frankly you know they find a reason every ten years or so to to to do it. Massive transfer of wealth and last time in two thousand eight crisis. You know they've robbed People's pensions and 401K's right by illegal Legal insurance scams right and they were able to basically bet against the American people and the homeowners of this country and transferred that wealth than via the insurance policies that they had purchased on things like the mortgage backed securities. So we all know that that happened and here. We find ourselves again in a in a crisis situation where they've created a pathway to transfer wealth to the very wealthy already. So when when you look at it like that and you look at it that you know again again again you find Decisions made in favor of industry and quote unquote the economy rather than the health and wellbeing of the people. I mean I use Amazon and I'm going to get you know I'm GonNa get lambasted for saying that But but I do and not a lot from time to time but you know the this is something it should it should exist but it should be nationalized. It should not be benefit one or or very few people and the workers should not have to put up with the conditions that Amazon is currently imposing upon them but when a company like Amazon or facebook is so deeply integrated into our society that it is too big to fail than it should belong to the damn people. That's my opinion on things like that so we are making moves towards a society. It looks something like a just society. Then then take those homes. That are sitting vacant when you have an housed families not just in general but now in the middle of a pandemic when people are literally being told by police to go inside and some people have no place to go. It's horrific that they didn't already open the doors to those homes and many others as well. We have been talking for forty five minutes about all the incredible stuff he's been working on and we've barely scratched the surface of your past mentioned telling me you know it's incredible it's wonderful you mentioned me too and your work with that and reclaim our homes You know you also have been did stuff with standing rock. You're at standing rock You work with California for Progress. I think for me. What so inspiring about all of this and this conversation is yes. This is the status of our government and our society right now and yes. We may not be able to support the politicians that we offered but there are things that we can do ourselves to organize to to come together to fight back against all of this stuff to do. Actual tangible work that that affects people's lives immediately. And and and this is incredible for us to have continue to talk to you because it demystify it a little bit. I mean you. You are an event planner. Am I right? That's your back Lance event planning uh-huh and and nobody's doing events anymore right current freelance writing. Oh where where events happening right now. There's something that's going on. I was for my income for me. Personally you know about half. My income came from freelance events. In half for my freelance writing and so I'm down to just the writing so I'm trying to expand on that Lino. This is a good time to write. Your masterpiece is told not that things aren't stressful. A friend of mine. Who FOR YEARS? We're GONNA write a book. He kind of said that to me the other day. But I think it's just so inspiring to me that okay so you've got this skill set. You are an event planner into writer. Yes but you know you you bring that to your work and do community organizing and you know an an earlier. You're talking about everything that you've done for for the masks here in La you've got people seamstresses. You've got an uber driver coordinating the delivery. You know it's it's it's people using what they have to do something tangible and that's what I really wanted to hammer home with his episode also to to say that we all have that power within our reach. If there's something that we can do so you know after the two thousand sixteen campaign came to an end and team. Bernie. La as it existed voted to disband. I voted against that but I was number and so a couple of us are still wanted to work together. Kind of looked at each other. And we're like what we wanted to do. And a friend of ours had created California for Progress logo the website. He set up the Social Media Infrastructure. And he was like. Do you guys want this. Created this you know and we kinda just looked at each other and said you guys WanNa be California for progress. Sure let's be California for progress and you know it's A. It's a beautiful thing that we were able to do. Because it's such an innocuous name it can. It can do anything right. It can support the me too movement. It could support immigrants. It can support Bernie can do whatever it wants to do. And it's pretty clear in the name like what it is Really the point of saying that is that once. We showed up to volunteer together right and we kind of went through the ringer for a few months. Together we were in the trenches together with Bernie campaign and it didn't turn out the way we wanted it to but we've wanted to continue to make a difference I mean even with Bernie's coffee shop once the campaign was over. The coffee shop became more of a community center based in the issues. Right and I can talk more about how we've utilized the coffee shop in the interim between the campaigns but the key of it is is once you find it a little niche where you enjoy volunteering and you meet other like minded people who also enjoy volunteering. Then it's just a little hop skip to get together and say let's create a project of our own. Let's start an initiative. What do we like to do? Do we want to gather signatures? Do WE WANNA knock on doors duly want to create media content? Do we want to put marches in the streets in creative events and we do media awareness like you can decide with your with your group of friends. Basically that share these the Asia the same or similar views as you are willing to volunteer their time. So all of us organizers and it seems like you know. We're out here like doing these. These big lake Sometimes it seems like untouchable. I know like when I look up to people like you know Molina Abdullah of black lives matter you know I think. Wow like this person. Who's been doing this for decades really understands what we're dealing with here. You known is fighting for the most marginalized or or my mentor. Carlos keen who has been working on housing issues since the foreclosure crisis and has really anchored himself in that sort of that struggle of how to lift up the people who are suffering the most under these systems when we entered into the burning movement. We did it for To try to make burning president right but we came out of it going holy cow. There's a lot of work to do. I mean as a as a community organizer or as a as an activist really. You can run yourself. Ragged and many people do. Many people have to hit the wall before they've reorganized themselves to say. Okay I need to have boundaries with this work is you can work twenty four hours a day seven days a week and and still feel like you're not doing enough and so part of what it would it really is is finding a niche. You know finding a type of work that you really like to do is food bank stuff and in helping or and the house. Is it doing that work within the Democratic Party and showing up to your local county and city and State Party and and being a progressive voice in that space and running for office or being on the board or something like that that strikes? Your fancy do it. I'm I'm also we haven't even talked about my. I work with KPFK. Yeah I'm currently the chair of the board at our local PACIFICA station. Kpfk in Los Angeles. And that's because you know strong. Strong functional productive independent media is extremely important to me and so when a friend of mine who was on the board said. A couple of US would like to ask you if you'd consider running for the board I found a new way to be able to interact with my passion for getting US off of our addiction to mainstream media rate and so in my opinion even like our Rachel Maddow's are participating in the completing the and the march to the right right by not calling out The issues with the Democrats are with the establishment right and trump gives us a great big evil boogeyman that we can point to all day long and he will continue to give that content. You know but it means that when when we're wall-to-wall and how bad trump is were missing a lot of gather pork and bangs your overlooking all the other stuff that's going on. That was already a problem and was already broken in our system people to find a space to volunteer talk to people make connections and plan your next steps. You know if you haven't yet a couple of people willing to sit with you to talk it through then you you. Have you know a way to to make something happen in your community? Also if you don't have an idea you can look and say what is it that I do. You'd mentioned on our call before a accountants yet totally math organization to support and if that skill money person and they are you in for between so if you're one of those people and help them wearing a graph I would. I would go so far to say that. Some of the people that like the activist community in the United States needs most are like accountants in people who know how to run organizations and Organiz. Yeah like that that that is definitely like how to set up your lawyers implications you know just not like that or if you're trying to operate within the party you know within the Democratic Party people who get the party they understand the bylaws they understand the structure of the clubs and the layers of governance. I mean just people who are wonky. They perhaps don't feel like there's a space all the time like graphic designers the one of the ways that we've been able to really send some of our projects viral or even international with mainstream media is by having you know top. Notch professional graphics. That are branding our movements right and I and I've been criticized by some in the Movement for my sort of marketing thinking about this. But I think branding what we do is really important like project mask. La is a brand new thing just popped up out of nowhere. We start asking for money right off the bat. How do people know how to trust it you? The first thing they wanNA know is who's organizing this. Well if if they don't know who Michelle. Manas is because they don't know other work that I've done than how are. How did they not give this thing? I'm endorsing Muddy Right. So part of it is like being able to say like yeah. We are organized. We are professional. We have done this before. And you know we're we're all volunteer and we're bringing are very professional skills many times you know and so you know. I have a friend who Her thing is is social media and she's so brilliant at it and if you can get her on a project and you can get it a focus or eight and she has the time in the capacity then your whole operation levels up because she knows exactly how to reach the people that you need to reach to execute your your your vision you know so people who bring those kinds of just showing up to a meeting and getting involved in conversations first step is showing up and the next step. Is You know putting yourself out there a little bit talk to someone be willing to go have that cup of coffee even if you're tired and you just want to go home and you're like okay. I went to the meeting. I did the thing I said I was going to do. Go get the Extra Cup of coffee and have a conversation with someone who thinks that you are interesting or someone that you think is interesting because relationships get bill. That's how you build trust in community and that's when you bring each other onto these kinds of projects and say hey you know what I was talking to someone the other day and that conversation we had two weeks ago popped into my mind. I really want to bring you in on this little things like that. How We build community and we build these teams for these projects. Michelle thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us your soul eloquence and have such a wide range of experiences. I think this is really fascinating Can you tell our listeners where they can find you online or plug the projects that you're working on websites or anything like that? Yeah sure I'm not really on twitter but you can find me on facebook and Instagram My Name Is Michelle. Manas and my instagram is MS leader Mitch. M. S. L. A. D. Y. M. I C. H. And my heart. My my heart is always GONNA be with. Bernie's coffee shop Bernie's coffee shop volunteer office on facebook and at Bernie's coffee shop all one word on Instagram And as you mentioned you know California for Progress and currently a project mask L. A. And you know I'm happy to come back and visit with you all again and talk more about the history of what we've been doing or what we're going to be coming next so you know because we have to figure out what we're doing about this damn convention if it's going to happen. Yeah I'm sure there's GonNa be lots of opportunities to chat in the near future and you know I got some great war stories when the two thousand Sixteen Convention for when the time comes great. Oh Yeah we can I just want to say I. It's so incredible to me that this started as a conversation between you and Katie in a restroom and I feel confident that nothing. This positive has ever resulted from a conversation in a men's restroom. I do feel like that objectively on a historic level. I it was faked. That brought us together may actually have been the last day of our method at. I think it was because I remember the same day. I said to the the girl at the front desk. I'M GONNA keep coming as long as you guys are here. Thank you for being here and it was that night that we got the email so I was there. What he said that we all got a little bit emotional and film. Otieno about not being able to go to barb at a community You know I rely on scene people in sharing that energy. I hadn't realized that I mean I knew it before this happened but now I realized just how much I rely on it. Yeah and you know for me I you know I moved to California in two thousand eight I. I married the guy that I was dating at the time. We bought a CONDO. We got a divorce papers Like just I. I became fulltime activists and I went to Grad School. The only dam constant in my whole life has been that freaking bar method that I don't. I've been going like over ten years and I don't know what to do with. I hate running. I hate it so what do I do? You know But you know this is turning into an ad for bar method normal. I mean far class. You you know you're bark last. Yeah rethink the ways that we're going about our lives. I was talking to some other day. That said you know I think that in the United States and the Western world is GonNa cut become more like some of the Asian countries. Where wearing a mask is pretty common. You know even in normal times because people have lived through you know viral pandemic. It'd be very interesting to see where we land on the other side of some of this. Well I'm looking forward to talking to you when we get there. I hope we keep checking in and thank you for having me. I really appreciate it and again like let me stress and I am so incredibly supportive of independent media. Thank you for having a people powered for for coming on the show. Michelle worst year. 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Dr. Melina AbdullahIm The Lion of BLM

Toure Show

1:12:02 hr | 2 years ago

Dr. Melina AbdullahIm The Lion of BLM

"What if you own bug them to another edition of Toray show? Dr Molina, Abdullah is one of the most inspiring people I have ever met. She's one of the original members of black lives matter. She was there that first night that Patrisse Cullors call people to join her for a strategy session that was about creating a movement in the wake of the acquittal of George Zimmerman. Dr Bella is a fierce activist who's considered the staunchest and most public critic of the LAPD she's a professor and the chair of the department of pan African studies at cow state in LA, and she's a woman of fear strength, deep wisdom and profound love who inspires her students and her friends to see her as a mother figure recently, Dr Bella was in serious legal jeopardy. The LAPD arrested her for assaulting a police officer of. She was alleged to have touched an officer's arm. She faced years in prison. And when you're the LAPD's biggest critic you can't expect to get a fair shake in a situation. Like that. You've got to -ticipant the system trying to silence you, but Dr Billah has a huge community behind her people who love her in a profound way, and they rallied on her behalf and all sorts of ways, and because of intense public pressure. The charges were dropped we started there. It's doctor Melina Abdullah on Toray show. You recently came through a bit of a fire. You had a. It as where the cop said that you had. Hint one of them or touched one of them and you faced a year or more in prison and the charges ended up getting dropped. But I'm sure it was extremely frightening. Just to even be in that situation. Can you give us your overview of what happened? Sure. So they didn't allege that. I hit anybody what they charged me with his battery, which the legal definition is any unwanted touching. So the only allegation came from a single officer. I was surrounded by, you know, at least ten officers and a single officer says that I touched his arm in the midst of kind of this chaos that was happening inside of L A police commission. I didn't even touch his arm. But that's what the initial charge was what they did with the police. Try to do is then tack on seven additional counts. And so I was looking at if the counts were concurrent, it could have been up to three and a half years if or is that right consecutive, it would have been three and a half years if they were concurrent it was a year. But thankfully, you know, we were organizers, and so people understood that the reason I was being prosecuted was because I'm an organizer. And so that this wasn't just about descending on me as an individual. But it was really kind of the criminalization of black protests. And so I'm really appreciative of the community. Tens of thousands of folks signed a petition there were thousands of folks who sent in letters made phone calls daily phone. Calls the city attorney's office, and then at least two hundred people showed up to every single court date that I had in. We believe that. That's why the charges were dropped along with having a really stellar legal team that volunteered their services to get me off. And so I am relieved. Always that. You said I must have been frightened. I always tell my children. I'm not scared of anything. I tell my people. I'm not scared of anything, but I was concerned up -solutely concerns. So do you read this because you are known? In in LA, at least with if not the rest of the nation as one of the most effective most passionate critics of the LAPD d you look at this as targeting as let's get Molina. Let's put some fear in her maybe make her shut up maybe put her in jail, something it was absolutely targeting. In fact, the officer who says I touched him said exactly your words, he said getting Malina, so they were absolutely targeting me. But I think more than just me it was about a movement. I'm actually the third black organizer to be charged inside a police commission in the last couple of years. Another black lives matter member was charged before me, and he was actually went to trial his name as a key Lee. And he actually went to trial on his case and before him. There was a brother. Named Jeff page general Jeff who organizes around police brutality as well. And he was charged. What's interesting is none of our white allies or non black allies have ever been charged with a crime. They might be pulled out of police commission meeting. They might be even arrested on rare occasion. But they're never charged. One of the counts that I was charged on our one of the days. I was charged on I was actually arrested with two white allies to white women allies and for the exact same action. I was charged but those two white women were not charged. So I mean, when you know a lot of 'em, you know, that this attempt to criminalize protest is part of the resistance to be a limb that occasionally as would have seemed to target people and make it so that their legal situation is such. That they can't protest for for a little while because they had to get out of their legal morass. I mean. God. The ways that they use to try to silence. You guys is insane. Yeah. I mean, and it's really like when you think about back away from the situation kind of take a hawk side view of it. All right. So if we think about what's happening, they're killing black people with impunity officers are not charged. They're not prosecuted for murdering our people. Right. Most of the time. They remain on the same force that they committed these murders with we have officers at LAPD who've committed to three or four murders, and there's no disciplinary action, and there's no legal action against them. And then when black people say stop killing us that becomes the criminal act. And so it's an absolutely insane system. But it's also not different from what we've experienced from our entire time in this country. If you think about, you know, protests again. Chattel slavery. Right. How what was the harshest punishment meted out against black and slaved folks, it was when we dared to stand up against the system of chattel slavery. If we think about the first lynching era, right? And the way in which women like either be wells and Mary church to rela the black club women were targeted with IB. Wells, you know, home office burned down, right? It was her speaking up against lynching, civil rights black power the same thing so this targeting and criminalization of black protests is nothing new, but it is something that we need to see a huge injustice and something that we need to resist. It should make us redouble our efforts and continue to struggle for the freedom of our people have when you were in custody for a few hours on this arrest were you treated fairly. No, absolutely not. And I think that was part of their attempt to. Intimidate me. I was arrested along with the aunt of wacky show Wilson Sheila Heinz Brehme. So the chaos that was happening in the room that day was because she la- Heinz Brehme is alleged to have will now she's already been through her own court battle thrown the ashes of her niece wacky show Wilson into the face of the ousted police chief, Charlie Beck. And so we were both arrested at the same time. I didn't know what had happened because I was just entering the room. And I didn't see any of this win. They arrested me I was really trying to see what was happening trying to come to the defense of sister Sheila 'cause we try to protect the families as much as possible. Although she lose a really strong woman probably doesn't need our protection. But we were in community together. I was shocked when we were put into these. Holding rooms that the people who came to see me were homicide. Detectives and that was troubling to me I've been arrested many times out of police commission in the midst of protests, I've been arrested before but never have I been interrogated I was taken into a room called the hard interrogation room. We were separated, and I was taken into a hard interrogation room, and I was interrogated by two homicide officers which has never happened before. And so that did bring some alarm I was concerned that I was being arrested for something that was much more than protest. What else happened when you're in custody that was in appropriate illegal meant to intimidate? I mean, they were clearly trying to get me to buy into this narrative that protest is something that shouldn't happen. And is something that's a legal. So those officers kind of they interrogated me for many hours. And so they even though I've been arrested before I did break down a little bit. And they kept asking me. Well, you know, don't chew think that you should just be quiet. Don't you think? And I didn't know how I was going to get myself out of that situation when we were finally booked into the jail the jail that we're booked into his the same jail where they killed wacky Wilson. And so it was for me. It was difficult. I've been booked into that jail before but she la- Hines hasn't. And so the bigger. Issue for me is how does her aunt feel being booked into the jail. Were her niece was murdered. And I just feel that that is, you know, it's it's psychological. It's a it's it's it's an attempt to really kind of retraumatize both of us, but especially her, and so I was especially concerned about that. They kept us much longer than they normally do initially. They said they weren't going to release us. They were holding. I think on fifty thousand dollars bail or something like that. And we couldn't muster that kind the kind of money they were talking about. But there was so much pressure that we were both released on our. And so that was you know, good at the time. Again, we didn't know that they were going to tack on these additional counts for my case. So I didn't know what I was facing. It was actually the period after coming out of jail that I was most. Concerned when we went to court that first date when instead of one charge it was eight charges. I understood that the first charge was one that I could beat because there's video evidence, right? I could show that I hadn't committed battery on an officer. I didn't know how I was going to beat eight charges, and I think the lesson in this is we always have to organize. We always have to fight. Don't let them intimidate us into silence. And so that's kind of what I've learned from this is that the fight, especially if it's righteous right? If it's a righteous fight, you gotta keep fighting. And I think we're on the eve March twenty seventh is the anniversaries the three year anniversary of wacky show Wilson's murder. And so I'm a strong believer that the work that we do is also spiritual work and quiches spirit is all up in this. And she wasn't going to let her aunt go down or me. Go. Down. And so that's also a reminder to us that there are forces that we can always see working. Are there other ways that you see the police are following you intimidating you trying to democrat you pulling you over the highway these sorts of things are parking outside your house, or are there other things they're doing all the time? I mean, we rarely see there was I live not close to a freeway exit. Not where you know, the highway patrol would be sitting in front of my house, but they're constantly sitting in front of my house. There have been marked cars and unmarked cars. There's only one way in one way out of my street kind of did ended and there's always cars parked marked. And unmarked police cars part there. We did try to get some. Records through PR a request. They were denied. So we're not quite sure what's happening with that. But we know that we're being monitored. We know that we're being surveilled police constantly say, they're, you know, even you know, flying to different cities just a few months ago. I was flying into DC. And there was a DOJ agent who I never introduced myself to who told me, I know who you are and police constantly try to tell us not just me, but several of us call us by name when we don't know who those officers are. And I think that those are all intimidation tactics. You know, they like to let us know that they're watching it. I'm sure that there's other ways that they're watching in surveilling and monitoring that were not always aware of so. Yeah, we know that that's happening. I know that you are selfless. Within this realm. But you are a mother of three children I have three children yet. And you're also one of the mothers of the movement. There's a lot of people who look to you to lead the organization and lead the organizing. So is there is there a fear that something will happen to you that would make life harder for all these other people who are relying on you. So I don't have fear. You know, there's a saying you're in faith can't occupy the same space, and I'm a faithful person, and I know that I speak a lot in spiritual terms, but I believe in a creator. I believe in ancestors, I believe that as long as we move righteously that I'm divinely protected, and I know that that didn't protect some folks who were taken out in this movement. Right. But I believe. And my children are very aware of what I do might children are organizers themselves. My oldest daughter is, you know, the lead of the black lives matter used vanguard, one of the leads of the black lives matter, youth, vanguard and beyond the spiritual connections fearful protection, I think we all understand that we've developed really strong relationships in loving relationships within our community so organizations from, you know, the Brown berets to the nation of Islam to, you know, a key Lee who I call baba, right? Are there to protect me? And I understand that. I know that you know, my people that I'm in community with are there to protect me as well. And so I'm not afraid, and I believe in living a life of purpose. And I believe that this work is my calling and so I'll continue to do the work in. No cop or white supremacist or anybody else's going to shake me from doing the work. It's really inspiring wear in your life going back further wearing your life does this courage. And this this faith in faith. Come from who are the people or or what are the experiences that led you to this current state of I am not afraid? I am going forward. No matter what. I got it from. My mother is absolutely fearless. My mother, you know, she she's everything. And you know, if I can do work that honors her if I can do work that honors my grandmother, and my great grandmother, and you know, all of my maternal line. You know, I think about I carry the middle name of the first person in my family to be brought here as an enslaved person. My great, great great. Great grandmother, Rachel, and I think about what it must have been for her. And so any any danger that I face is nothing compared to that. Right. It's nothing compared to what our ancestors went through. I was always raised to believe. My my I grew up across the street from my grandpa, and he called me as all right? And I was always raised to believe that. I was special, and you know, that we were all special, and that we all had a calling, and, you know, just keep doing the work. That's the whole point. There's nothing to be afraid of grandpa, he trained all of our all the grandkids were taught to swim. Now, he didn't teach me this way. But all the other grandkids were taught this way by throwing them off a boat and making them swim back to the boat. And they all did. Nobody drowned. Right. And I think that was also a lesson though, encourage right grandpa, always taught us to be courageous not be afraid of the lizards. Like, the girls we catch lizards, and snakes and all that stuff too. Right. So I've never been afraid. And I think I'm becoming more conscious of the need to reject fear. And that's what I teach my children as well. To reject. Fear. Fear is now. Sound like Will Smith right fear is a choice. Danger is real but fear is a choice. So. Yeah. You told me great story once that I want you to tell the folks about when you were occupying the LAPD headquarters and was your son wanted to go to the bathroom, and he had to sort of stand down stand up to this cop following what you taught him. Yeah. Yes. So we also, you know, the kind of idea of courage is also rooted in spirituality, so we're meditators my family, we meditate daily, and my son who I believe he was he had to be four the time. Maybe five. It was the first quote unquote accusation, we now, call them decolonization. But I keep pation of the black lives matter movement. We had taken over LAPD hit quarters, and we were demanding Justice for easel Ford. And it's a public building. APA course quarters is a public building. That's open twenty four hours a day. And so my son who was a little boy, it he was still for he needed to use the restroom, and we had been kind of going in and out using the restroom and this officer is this was a middle of the night because it was a twenty four seven encampment. We walk in this officer, this really tall was well over six feet officers stands in front of us and tells us we can't use the restroom, and he looks at my son any puts his hand on his gun. And. You know, it's still every time. I say that part it makes me emotional because I just think about how could you right? And my son. Brings us all down. He sits on the floor at the officers feet. And it crosses his legs. You know, criss cross applesauce and puts his fingertips together. And he begins to go meditate at the feet of this officer. And it totally like re-centred us. And he wasn't able you know, the I don't know what it did to the officer. But for us all of the anxiety and fear in a motion kind of dissipated. And we were watching this little boy know exactly what to do, you know? And so I think that for me was one of the pivotal moments of be eleven but also of being his name is on men of being amends, mama. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So pull bekker's I can do you think that the LAPD is reform little or is it policing in general that is the problem? Both LAPD is reform -able, however, those reforms or not going to save our lives. So those reforms might reduce the killings of our people at the hands of police, but it's not gonna save all of us. And so, you know, we've been talking a lot in the movement about the difference between a victory and Justice. So we just wanna victory last week LAPD officers who murdered GRA sharia MAC inside the Crenshaw ball when hills mall the blackball without even bothering to evacuate them all before they poured seven shots into the back of this man was having a mental health episode, right? Those officers were found to be out of policy by the police commission that sets it up. So the officers can be fired by the police chief and prosecuted by the DA the DA can prosecute regardless of outcome. The truth is so that was a victory. We had to fight for that. There were only they're only been four occasions in the almost six-year existence of be Elim where LAPD his found that the officers were out of policy. So this was a victory. It was a huge fight. And it was a huge win. However LAPD is still killing people. Right. And so we can look at reform we can say will they kill less people and twenty eighteen and they didn't twenty seventeen and they killed less people in twenty seventeen and twenty sixteen but until the killings of our people stops, you know, it's not Justice. And so we need an end to violence at the hands of police in the only way to do that is to really kind of Dopp an abolitionist frame, and I know people go, wait. What does that mean? How are we going to be safe without police? Well, I think that for black. Folks, we need to think about how police treat us, right? It doesn't mean the end of public safety. What it means is the end of policing as we know it. And so when we look at most major cities spending upwards of fifty percent of their city's budget on police, harass or veil, brutalizing kill our people and feed a prison system that further traumatizes in decimates our community, then we need to think about other options. I love some of the work that show way on our members. Doing Jackson Mississippi some of the work that razz Barack is doing a Newark where they're taking money back from policing, what our community solutions to public safety. What if we gave people maybe even formerly incarcerated people jobs to create safe communities, and you're seeing crime go down as a result. So I think we have to be more creative. We have to stop saying. Ng that we need to invest in a system that evolves from slave catching and people always say that's an extremist thing to say. But I encourage folks to read books read books like city of inmates by Kelly Lytle, Hernandez, right that talks about the history of policing in jails where we know that yesterday's slave patrols today's police forces, and those are not reform -able institutions, we need other public safety systems. And so that's what we want to encourage people to do. That's how we get to Justice not just these kind of measurable victories that don't mean that any of us are really free. So just back for one thing when you say abolitionist, you mean, you want to see the the end of the Imada American police force. Absolutely. And I think that when we think about the term. Term abolition people think about the end of something. But they don't think about the ways in which abolitionists like most people when you say abolition, they think about the abolition the end of chattel slavery. Right. They don't think about abolitionist is just as not only ending the system of chattel slavery, but building towards Freda abolition means two things abolition means ending oppressive systems that exist, but also imagining and building new systems, and so yes, I mean an end to policing as we know it. I also mean the development of creative and beneficial systems of public safety, your what would. I wanna say what would replace policing. But then that would be the same thing. But do you foresee civilian patrols like what would there not be a need for something in its place? So we don't have all the answers to everything. But I can give you a couple of examples. Right. So I mentioned GRA sharia Mack who was murdered inside the Crenshaw having a mental health episode. Why would we call LAPD on someone who is not armed with any illegal thing? Right. He was alleged to have been holding a kitchen knife, not attacking or threatening anybody but holding a kitchen knife. Right. Why would we call LAPD come in with what one witness called every gun blazing? Right. Why wouldn't we have a mental health team that could come out and talk to GRA sharia about what's happening with him? Why wouldn't we give him the? Space that he said he needed. He said just leave me alone. Why wouldn't we give him time and space to settle himself? Right. That's an example of public safety and other example of public safety's when I first moved to an area of Los Angeles. Call Lamar park there were these I always wondered why are all these old people sitting out on their porches in the morning. Well, the neighborhood had organized itself working class neighborhood. So that the grandparents sat out on the porch from seven AM to about eight thirty every morning watching the children walked to school, and it made the children's walked to school safe. Why can't we think of creative things like that? When we think about the things that most people call police force police for there's a study out of UC Berkeley that says upwards of ninety percent of those calls are calls where we really don't need police. It's nuisance calls. It's people calling police because their neighbors playing the radio out to lower reviewing in the wrong place, right barbecue becky's way. Why don't we learn to say if your neighbors playing the radio too loud, you can get up and go knock on their door and say, you know, what the baby trying to sleep. Do you mind turning down the radio, you know, we don't need police coming in and possibly killing someone because of something that we could handle just by developing stronger community ties or you, okay? Just to push the point one more step. I mean that is not going to work when you have a criminal organization that is selling drugs or doing whatever the mafia does or any other sort of groups that organized to have a criminal operation. So what then so I don't have that answer. I don't have all the answers. I do know that we're talking about much lower than ten percent are kind of these organized crime pieces. Right. I do know that when you're talking about crime in black communities, right? The things that they say that we should be afraid of so-called gang members. I do know that most of the folks who are engaged in this kind of work in black neighborhoods. It's because they have little alternative, I do know that if we reinvested portion of that money to make sure that children there was a study out of rand which is not like some bastion of liberalism. Right. Let's say you could virtually eliminate youth crime just by having quality after school programs from three to seven pm. Right. So if we took in Los Angeles, it's fifty three percent of the city's general fund if we took some of that money. And invested it in quality after school programs. You could wipe out so-called real crime. Right. Among us, if we took some of that money and talked about, you know, livable wage jobs for folks when we talk about gang involvement, some of the things that people are doing our so called gang crime, right? These are crimes of need. Right. They they don't have livable wage jobs when you and it ties into like larger policies like people who are convicted of crimes then carrying that with them forever. So they can't get housing. They can't get food stamps. You know, they can't get another job. And so those are things that we need to think about is also public safety questions. No, you're definitely right? That the specially within the black community the police are often criminal genyk, perhaps even more so than they are preventing crime. So in an in an analysis of a question of abolition. It. We definitely are facing more from the police than from the other organizations within the community that might be trying to. Respond to their lack of options with crime. But what? So so outside of abolition in a world that accepts we may have to live with the LAPD what specific reforms new most want to see. Well, I think that the biggest one is thinking about how to divest from an over reliance on policing. So divert some of those funds into we don't have to completely eliminate LAPD tomorrow. But we do have to get that budget number down. We do have to use that budget. Number two, invest in the things that make community safe like mental health resources housing livable wage jobs after school programs diversion programs, those kinds of things I would love to see that happen. We also it took me some time to get to this position. But we also have to have accountability. So. Police who kill people absolutely have to be prosecuted for those crimes. Right. And then we also have to do away with this notion that police can justify killing people by simply saying that they're scared for their lives in California. What we're seeing is, you know, a murder after murder were even when there's recommendations for police to be prosecuted. DA's are rejecting those cases or the police are kind of beating those cases by using the I feared for my safety excuse. And so in California, we are starting to look at what we call non-reformist reforms last year. We passed a police transparency Bill which allows us to kind of see who are the problematic officers. What have they done in? What do these cases? Look like right in. In california. They were previously, you know, under this veil of secrecy. So when police killed somebody. So if we think about the murder of Liqun McDonald in Chicago, which is why we should never believe Chicago police, right? One of the reasons, right. That's a shoutout to Jesse small and. But when we think about the murder of lukewarm McDonnell, the only reason that we ever got to how they murdered the seventeen year old boy is because we were able to get the surveillance video from Burger King. Right. And then we saw at the community accounts of what happened were true. The police accounts were lies right that they murdered Kwan McDonald in cold blood in California up until the passage of this Bill that was the first cosponsored black lives matter Bill. We didn't have that. Right. So Keith Bercy, for instance, was murdered and his murder was captured on video on a from a convenience store. Video his grandmother had no right to that video. Even though it was there. And so we passed this Bill that now we can see this video evidence. We can see, you know, evidence about officers like eat in Medina who killed Jessie Romero, a fourteen year old boy for tagging and had just killed another young man in the same neighborhood. I believe it was sixteen days before. So we can start to kind of root out these especially murderous officers. What we're doing this year with our follow up. Bill is really stiffen Clarksville. Everybody will remember Stefan Clark was murdered in his grandmother's backyard last year while holding a cell phone that the police say that they mistook for. A gun bay said that they feared for their lives. And so the DA in Sacramento refuse to prosecute them. What this Bill will do assembly Bill. Three ninety two were pushing for it to pass it changes, the use of force standards. So it says that police don't get to kill people in us what they call the reasonable officer standard. Was there a reasonable fear? Instead it has to be a necessary standard. And I hate that word, but it has to be that they've exhausted all other options. So in the case of Gregorio MAC it requires the time and distance right in the case of Stefan Clark. You know, it requires that they take a pause and not murder him and his grandmother's backyard. And so that's what we're thinking of when we talk about you know, what kinds of non-reformist reforms we can institute implement. We're trying to pass legislation that does that. On the federal level. There's one more that's happening. The chair of the Congressional Black caucus Karen bass who happens to be my member of congress of former community organizer here in Los Angeles. And I mean, a real organizer. She's the founder of community coalition. She's tomorrow on why kisha Wilson's death anniversary. She's introducing a family notification Bill because the other thing that we're seeing is that in addition to murdering folks when folks are killed when are people are killed by police. They're not even treated as human beings, they assassinate their character. But then they also sometimes keep their body bodies in custody without notifying families for days and days in the case of wacky show Wilson, her family wasn't notified for almost four days. And so those are all things that we're working on legislatively that we think can move down the. Path to Justice. What do you shut out to longtime supporter of the show policy genius? They make it easy to get life insurance. And look everybody needs life insurance because that's how you take care of your family. I mean like when I go to sleep at night. I wanna know that if something happens to me, I don't wake up for some reason, my family will be taken care of. And they're not going to end up homeless. How do you do that? Make sure you have insurance of something will be there to save you in case of a rainy day in case of the typhoon in case of a monsoon. Somebody will be there looking out for you policy. Genius is the easy way to buy life insurance online. 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Spend less time comparing life insurance and more time doing literally anything else like listening to more Tory show podcast by going to policy genius handle that adulting stuff real easily and get back to living. One of the things about the feared for my life line that you hear over and over and over that just kills me e- read a study several years ago about the superhuman as Asian bias that white people feel toward black people. So we are magic to have superhuman strength speed. You know, sometimes the ability to have bullets bounce off of us. So when the officer is in this sort of struggle, and he's imagining this younger black male as being physically superior to him. Of course, he would go into a mode of fear and wanting to kill, and that's not about what is actually happening with that black boy or man in front of you. That's about your biases that you take into the job. Absolutely. We remember what Darren Wilson said about Mike Brown. Right. That that bias that? You're talking. About also imagine like if you if they walk in a room, and there's two black people in the room. They all also imagine that there's more. So it's each black person as imagined is being more dangerous. And they always imagine that there are more of us than there actually are that is a sickness, right? And I think that those kinds of fears or things that they need to deal with themselves that should not justify the murder of our people. Right. And so I think you know, when we're talking about those imagined realities these fantasies black these fantasies of who black people are then it shows that many of the police were policing may be all of the police who were policing aren't fit to do. So. You're big on supporting victims and their and their families who survived them, and you know, quick to something happens to go out and reach out to the family and try to comfort them and try to help them politically and spiritually, and I wonder the impact on you of being part of still many police killing so many heartbreaking black deaths that are unjust. What impact does that have a your spirit? I'm not quite sure. I don't feel burdened. You know, a lot of folks talk about like, you must feel burdened. I don't feel burdened by and fact, like the relationships that I have with the families are a great honor to me, I feel honored that. So I'm particularly close with both wacky show Wilson's family. And Kenneth Ross is family, Kenneth Ross's mother. And you know, Kenneth Ross's mom will call me sometimes midnight, and we'll just talk on the phone and show mention Kenneth. But that's not all we talk about. We'll go. And you know, we're talking about what we don't do our kids around the same age. What are we going to do with our kids? Right. Kendrick mcdade's mom, you know, we have dominos game that we got to get together on right? And, you know, those are, you know, it's it's not just tr-. Tragedy. Right. It's people. Ryan Stevenson says that people shouldn't be are much more than the worst thing that they've ever done. Right. I think also people are much more than the worst thing that they've ever experienced, right? Like there's so much more to these families than tragedy. You know, I met a cousin of mine actually in this work when we had our first movement for black lives convening in Cleveland. There was a panel of moms. And there was this one mom who I don't know why I just connect it with her face and later, I saw her back at the hotel where everyone was staying, and we were talking and she was from Florida, and I don't have any family in Florida. But as we started to talk about like house, she got to Florida. She hit come from New Orleans. She actually it's it's terrible. She fled Hurricane Katrina. To Florida and thought she was finding space in Florida Florida's where Tampa Florida's were her son. Andrew Joseph the third was killed. But we kept talking and it turned out that she wasn't from New Orleans either really that her family was from Beaumont, Texas, which is where my family is from. So then I call my mom, and my uncle, and we all walk it back, and we go, we're we're related, right? So now Deanna hardy Joseph, and I we spend time together we're talking about. How do we take? Her daughter deja is the same age as my oldest daughter. How do we go on spring break together? Right. And so it's not just the tragedy of Andrew's murder. It's also the beauty of the lives that remain. And so it's not burdensome to me to deal with the families to you know. Forged relationships with them to do spiritual work with them. It's an honor. And yeah, there's some heaviness when we go out the first thing, we try to do is like go out when someone's killed and pour libation and pray for their spirit pray for their families do vigils that part is sad. But it's also kind of getting through it together that I really think not only bonds me in them but bonds are higher community together. In one of the stories about you said I carry a lot of guilt about what? I don't know if guilt was the right word. I don't know what the word is. Maybe maybe it's guilt. It's I know that when I meet a family. That I'm going to bond with them that I'm gonna feel the spirit of their loved one. And then I'm gonna struggle for Justice with them. And I know that I'm not gonna get it. I know that the system that we live under we're not going to get Justice. It's not gonna come tomorrow or next week or at the end of the year or two years. You know, we're not gonna get to Justice right now. And you know, sometimes I think about now there's there's this mom who's probably one of the strongest moms and the movement. Her name is Helen Jones, her son, John Horton was beaten to death inside of men's central jail ten years ago ten years ago. That is still an open investigation that district attorney won't even give her closure of saying she's going to charge. The officers are not charge. The officers ten years later. Helen Jones is still struggling, and I think she's view like a lot of black women are viewed like she comes to these demonstrations every single week in front of the DA's office. And she's one of the most powerful speakers you've ever heard in your life, and I've never seen sister Helen break until last week. And last week. She started to give this powerful speech that we all feed off of. But the day before it was John's birthday and Helen broke. And she cried. And nobody knew what to do because sister. Helen, never breaks. Right. She never cries. We know she's morning, but her morning comes out in like this fear struggle for him. And so she broke, and you know, I I talked to her that night and after but I feel like how can we how can we do something? So she doesn't have these Frakes, right? I don't ever wanna see her cry. But I know that when we go his anniversary is on Saturday. It will be ten years on Saturday. And I don't know what we're going to experience when we're standing in front of men central jail on Saturday. So I wanna do more. You know, I want. Can't I can't fix it. We can't fix it. The movement can't fix it right now. But it needs to be fixed right now. 'cause every moment that goes by somebody else's child or mother father. That's killed. What do you get out of meditation? Sanity. Get sanity out of it. I learned to meditate before the black lives matter movement. I went through terrible divorce now telling you all my business, but terrible divorce like seven years ago, and I was working with someone just a friend. And he said to me if you don't learn to meditate, you're gonna lose your mind. And I don't wanna lose my mind. I'm the only parent my children have right. And so I started meditating and for me meditation sanity, I always describe it. I meditate with my students to who. I call my spirit children. Right. So in most of my classes, especially my activism classes, we meditate once a week at least, and I tell them that to do Justice work we have to restore ourselves and for me meditation is restoration. It's it's a shower for your soul. It's the way to get all of that muck off of you going into police commission. Standing in front of Jackie Lacey, hearing these white supremacists. Say crazy stuff, right? You gotta wash that off your spirit and so- meditating as that. And then meditation is also like a rain coat. So like. All the stuff they're hurling at you like exists, this kind of this protective cover, so it doesn't really stick to your spirit. And so for me like I would be different. Maybe I'll say a different kind of crazy than I am. If I didn't meditate what is your practice. Look like how long do you meditate is it daily? Do you have a a spot diva mantra? I do have a spot. I have several spots. I often meditate on campus and invite other people to meditate with me. I am even though I've been doing it for about seven years. I'm not very good at meditating without a guided meditation, so I use a guided meditation right now Oprah Deepak just launched their new meditation for the season. So I'm doing that one. And I know people say ho, that's like, you know, not real meditation. Hey it works for me. Right. So so I use oh for Deepak when it's out. But when it's not out there's a a sister that I went to undergrad with Toni Blackman who does meditation specifically that are like black women's meditations. And she has this one about water that I do almost. Like when Oprah Deepak is not on. I do that one almost every day. That's almost the only one I use which is about being like water, right? Like being fluid like water. And so I guess that's my mantra is learning to be fluid like water flow like water, and I loved it. There's music behind it. And that's the one I use in that one's pretty short. That one's only seven minutes, the Oprah ones or twenty one twenty twenty one minutes. Would you prefer to do like a twenty minute stretch? Yes. So after I do Tony's I kinda sit still for a little bit longer because I'm not ready to open my eyes yet. But twenty minutes is good for me. Part of why dig into this is that you know, when media talks about black lives matter and the people in it, they focus on the activism, the more telegenic aggressive activist moments, and they miss the self-care moments. And that is something that is very important to everybody in BMI I've ever met, and can you talk a little bit about about that side of things. And and how important that is. So that's funny because everybody laughs at me because I hate the term self care. I use. Well, part of it is I think that a lot of folks, especially younger folks have misinterpreted self care as selfish care. Right. So I think a lot of folks think that self care means that they get to do whatever they want whenever they want. They get to Bandon the movement. Right. Because you know, they don't have capacity. Right. They use that term a lot. I don't have capacity. Well, hell you don't even have children it. So how are you out of capacity when I have three children in a single mom. Right. So that part bothers me that doesn't mean that I don't believe in the care of our souls. Right. So I believe in prayer and meditation, I also, you know, believe in physical, you know, keeping ourselves physically fit. So, you know, I do daily walks which is part of both, my spiritual and my physical health, right? I try to eat clean all of that is part of what I think of is community care. Right. So it's me caring for myself taking time to care for myself. But it's also like why I often meditate in a group right Hauer. We taking care of each other. It's not enough to just say, oh, let's give Jan space. She needs. Jan is my sister in via limb. Give her the space. She needs to take. Her walks. No, let's say Jan did you do your walk today at into my walk today there. Let's go together. Right. So really deepening our community experience in that doesn't mean that it always has to be in community. But I think the community needs to take care of each other and needs to caution ourselves against selfish care, which can actually take the form of abuse against those of us who tend to carry most of the work when I think about some the emotions and the motivations that really power. You to be like a lion working in this in this space. This quote of yours jumped out at me the way I keep my kids safe is to transform the system. And when the motivation comes from being a parent and from home. And like I'm gonna take care of my children in this way. That is really really powerful. Can you talk about that part of it for you? Sure. I mean, you'll hear often mothers of the people who've been killed by police say, well, he was a good boy, you know, you'll hear I remember we were at a gathering in Tampa for Andrew and Mike Brown's debt was there. And you know, there were other families, they are, and they started talking about, you know, how their children were on the honor roll, right or how Andrew was like, this scholar athlete, and you know, his mother is, you know, well educated both of his parents are right. And they were talking about you know, he didn't deserve this. Right. And you'll hear them often say things like that he didn't deserve this. And then what I realized is, you know, for generations. We've always kind of put the burden of our children's safety on the children. And on ourselves. Right. We've had these speeches the one part. I did appreciate in the hate. You give was you know, the talk, right? This idea of what do you do with your hands? When you're pulled over by police, right? Because we all had the talk, right? My mother did that you know with us. My brother was taught especially how what tone. Do you use? Right. Don't really look in the eye right ligament little but not all the way, right? But when you're hearing these stories these kids got the talk these kids weren't doing anything wrong, Trayvon wasn't doing anything wrong. Right. And so how do you survive these encounters in the only way to really survive is not putting them on on a roll not telling them to pull their pants up? Not listening Bill. Cosby who says, you know, don't name them African names? Right. Not. It's it's not what music they listen to right? It's the system the system has to be transformed. These children are not going to be safe by pulling their pants up. They're not going to get to safety by not listening. Hip hop. It's the system that has to be transformed. So because I want my three children to be safe. And then all of the children that I call my spirit children in all of us who were connected by spirit. Whether we know each other and not because we want safety we have. To support the Trent we have to engage in the transformation of the system. So that's what I meant by that is that I'm gonna struggle as hard as I possibly can to transform the system to create a world where my children can get home safely, right? It's so important just for the historical record. And just because it's a great and interesting sort of story, you you were of course, at the first meeting of black lives matter that when Patrisse Cullors called many people to her space at Saint elmo's village and started this journey, can you tell us the story of that first meeting and Howitt's would have fanned out from their sure. So then night that Zimmerman was acquitted in the killing of Trayvon Martin, a thousands of us of us in Los Angeles. And, you know, many more around the country in round the world kind of erupted into what I call intuitive organizing, right? So we convened there was a rage there. It was sadness. And then we commenced to shut and stuff down. Right. So we marched basically for three days we marched, and it was interesting. How quickly it was clear. It became clear that we had to be intentional about targets. Right. So we marched north which means north of Crenshaw is wider and more affluent. And we shut sites down that matter it to more affluent white folks, and that made sense. However, there was no discussion about the intention -ality. We just kind of moved and whoever had the bull bull Horner was at the front of the line was in charge of kind of picking out the route. And right, and I have talked about this before that that was really important to you in the group because so often we are activism protesting in our neighborhoods, but we need to take that conversation to white communities. So they can hear it not just preach. To the choir. Absolutely. And we also know that you know, if we're protesting white supremacist patriarchal hetero, normative capitalism, right? We we can't be marching south into our neighborhoods with all of the pinup rage. Right. We saw what happened in nineteen ninety Ninety-two. Right. Those forces don't really care what happens to our neighborhoods, but they do care if you March up to Hollywood and Highland and disrupt their Disneyland right and Hollywood and Highland for folks who don't know is this kind of tourist site. We're, you know, folks, go to get away from black folks and poverty in Los Angeles. Right. So people coming here. That's where they go. And so it was important for us that as their terrorizing our communities, and that is absolutely what these killings by white supremacists. And killings by police in security are right. It's terrorism in our community as their terrorizing our communities were not gonna just hold it in our communities. That's what those black brunches were that were done up in the bay area. Right. That's what all of these shutdowns or about is about saying, you don't get to have your spaces of comfort when our communities are being terrorized in. So we engaged in that work, and that was really important, and it was important that we are ticky lated it. So, you know, we kind of articulated for thousands of people on the Bullhorn, but not as a collective, and so those first couple of days, I was in the streets with, you know, thousands of people in the streets which included my own biological children in me as well. As my spirit children who are my students in pan African studies. Cal State LA and on the third day of protests. They decided that they were gonna shut down the ten freeway. It was the first freeway shutdown of the black lives matter era, and my daughter who's an activist herself right at the time. She was nine I believe she's going come on, mama. Let's get on the freeway, and I'm not that crazy of a, mama. So I was like we won't be doing that. Right. But we kind of watched this freeway shutdown. My son was still in a stroller. He was three. And so as we were standing there, I got a text message from Patrisse Cullors who I had already been in community with we had been building this black organizers collective together for the last couple of years. So I got to know her a bit, but the text actually came from a phenomenal journalist name tendencies, way Chiwenga. Who was close with both of us and the text said meet at nine pm at Saint elmo's village. And I always say sounded like a message from the underground railroad. Right. Like this secret, meet up points. Right. So I got I I sent the message out to my students, and we gathered that night, and I didn't know that Patrice it been in conversation with Lisa Garza and OPEL medi about how to build a movement Natta moment. But that first night. That's what it was. There were about thirty of us gathered in the courtyard of this black artists community called Saint elmo's village in mid city, Los Angeles. And it was you know, we met for hours and hours, and at the end, we circled up, and we did the chance that we call a Asada, right? It was the words of a Sukur and we committed to building a movement not a moment. Right. And we said the words it is our duty to fight for freedom. It is our duty to win. Right. And we talked about what does that mean? What does that look like? And you know, what does it mean? To the words go on we must love and protect one another. We have nothing to lose chains. Right. So how do we build something like that? And. I think that as we were saying those words, and as we were kind of pledging to build a movement, not a moment. I don't think we completely understood with that meant, but the pledge meant something to us, right? And so when I was doing it. I was like, yes. You know, we have to do more than engage in the struggle for Justice for Oscar grant or Sean Bill or Margaret Mitchell or Devon Brown. Right. These are all people who were killed by police we organized for and then it some point we stop organizing for the right? We either win a victory or we realized that we're not going to win a victory that all of their lives and spirits in the struggle. For justices. All connected, you have to we have to transform ourselves. Right. I think about something tiff posted once and tiff is in an. Organizer from Ferguson. He's a hip hop artists organizer from Ferguson, and I've heard him say once he said, they keep asking us win. We're going back in the house. And then he said, we ain't never going back in the house. And I think that's what it has to be. We can never go back in the house. Right. We have to engage for the rest of our lives. We have to leave a world for our children. That's freer. And that's what we committed to even though we didn't know all of what it would entail. We didn't know that it meant, you know, late nights. We didn't know that it meant that, you know, sometimes vacation time means, you know, protests time or meet up time. Right. We didn't know all of these things. But that's what it is. So what happened at that first meeting? I don't remember everything. I remember. History. I know I remember the images of it. It's almost like I remember the circle I imagine in one day. I'll look it up. I feel like the moon was full. And I don't know if it was. But I felt it was like the circle outside. So the way saying almost villages set up is it really feels like an African village. There's this huge courtyard where we all it's and so for the first part of the meeting these this kind of shared space. It's almost like a barn that you open the door of. And we were all gathered different tables talking about what it means to build a movement. I remember that conversation. We talked about what we were willing to give to the movement. Right. We talked about like different people's gifts like artists and healers, and you know, we were also really. Attentional in talking about what it meant to be mothers. There were a couple of us who were mothers in that space. We talked about for some of my students. This was new right? Like there hasn't been a movement of the sort in their lifetimes. Right. If you're talking about eighteen nineteen twenty year olds right? Even our lifetimes. Right. We were born on the tail end of the black power movement. We don't remember it. Right. And so I think that kind of figuring out what this means and what our contributions are. And what we have to build from that with some of the conversation. And then I just remember the beauty of the chance. So after hours of having these conversations, I remember going out into the courtyard and holding hands with people. Some I knew in some I didn't. And these words Patrice with standing at the center of the circle, and we all repeated after her and at first we did it in a whisper than we did in our regular voice in the last one. I remember looking up in the sky was really black. But I do remember seeing the moon and like yelling it to the heavens. Right. Yelling it to our ancestors. Yelling it to the creator. And I remember feeling differently and feeling inspired and feeling like we can't lose right feeling like the. Justice that we were seeking was inevitable. And at that time it felt like we were gonna win it tomorrow. Thank you. Dr Bella for another crate interview in thanks to you for listening Toray show gives you fuel to power your dreams because you can use your dreams like a rocket ship to blast yourself into a life. You never imagined. You can make your dreams a reality. And this show can help on Twitter at Tori and on Instagram at Toray show. Please subscribe rate and review until your friends about the show. Tori shows written by me to arraign produced by Chris Colbert, our editor is Brandon Taegu. Our photographer is Chuck, Marcus. And we're distributed by D C, P entertainment, and we will be back next Wednesday with more knowledge from more amazing folks because the man can't shut us down.

officer LAPD murder Los Angeles Darren Wilson DA Andrew Joseph Crenshaw Patrisse Cullors Bill George Zimmerman Lee Tampa Dr Billah attorney Wilson Sheila Heinz Brehme Melina Abdullah Dr Molina
Life During the Coronavirus, and a Conversation With Conor Dougherty About the Complexities of the Housing Crisis | Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air

Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air

1:27:50 hr | 1 year ago

Life During the Coronavirus, and a Conversation With Conor Dougherty About the Complexities of the Housing Crisis | Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air

"Hey It's Kelly and welcome to the ringer podcast network. Hope the ringer can provide you entertainment companionship. During this time so as always feel free to check out the ringer dot com. But we're still covering the latest in Sports Pop Culture. Tech and media and the ringers. Youtube channel can provide endless amounts of entertainment. You can find that at youtube dot com slash the ringer. This is one more interesting to various social distancing episode of back on the air. I'm actually recording from my home today here in Pasadena and the world is a little different from the lance time I spoke to you guys so It's very interesting very interesting. It's GONNA know I hope everybody's doing okay. You know keeping your a correct distance from each other and everything man. My head is spinning right now. I'm doing this. By the way we we have a really interesting conversation I plan for you today with Kana dirty The New York Times and I talked to him a few weeks ago actually before this was really blown up like this and he has a book out right now in the housing problem in America. And it's real interesting. It's a great talk. He's an awesome guy so I hope you enjoy that and You know of course. We don't bring up corona because at the time I talked to him. It just wasn't Dow what it is right now but you know it seems that the housing problem I think is going to be a huge issue coming up to this but guys we're in a different world right now. Things have changed so much in the first thing I wanna do is just you know. Just send just love out into the world. You know hoping I there's a lot of anxiety out there I've dealt swimming's eighty myself those first couple of days which is very bizarre. I remember I think it was just a week ago when I think in the same day You know it seemed like this was going to be one of those things that we would you know? We'd handled on a certain way. You know some people would get it in. Yeah there'd be a breakout but you know the world will go in and we will deal with him. But I don't know if I anticipated how much the entire world would shut down in a matter of like like an hour on Wednesday. I remember everything happened at once like Tom. Hanks announced that he He and his wife tested positive. They were in Australia than the NBA player Tested positive and they shut down. The Games and trump came came on television in gave his his speech of Where he finally started to take this seriously. And Everything snowballed from there. You know the entire sports leagues shutdown cities were shutdown. Amin our whole world. Change just in a few days. Even from Friday to Monday has been such a huge change and people are out there acting like we're in a hurricane. There's some natural disaster. I mean hoarding toilet paper. I don't understand why people are getting so much. It just doesn't make sense to me but I do understand that the anxiety and that feeling a I'm not GonNa Make Fun of those people too much you know because I do get it. You know. We're all at home now but we have to keep our distances. We're in this world weird place where we all have to kind of band together but stay apart you know as other people have pointed out to you know My daughter's home from college right now and she missed out on her graduation which they haven't officially canceled but I know that they were they. They absolutely have to. You know even though you know huge disappointment but it's kind of odd like we're not. We haven't been focusing so much on the disappointments on that. It's really been a time at least for me as a family did you. Just Kinda have things. Simple spending time safely together and everything and You know just being together I guess the most simple lane and my heart goes out to so many people who are just you know. Have no way to make money right now. Losing their jobs losing their businesses. Which is probably going to happen you know. We've people focus on the stock market and that kind of thing but you know that's nothing compared to just the everyday person who just needs to put you know. Most people are living month-to-month out there regardless of what the economy says in all that stuff and when you're funds are just cut off you feel so isolated from the world. I mean you really don't know what's going to happen you know. Hopefully it looks like it was interesting that they're gonNA pass this stimulus bill where they're gonNA put some cash in people's pockets. Which hopefully that happens will happen soon. Which by the way you know forget jumped a politics for a second is kind of the thing that Andrew Yang was proposing has universal basic income. That you be I thing and it'll be interesting to see if something like that Makes a difference which I hope it does make a difference for people if that continues to be a thing if people have kind of changed their mind on that we'll sing. I mean that's just a side comment on it but I am concerned about. Here's the thing I'm most concerned about. This is I really am concerned about the president. I'm not really concerned about the people around him. But I am concerned about the president saying when I mean concerned like all the things that I don't like about trump and not even me because I'm a democrat. I'm supposed to not like him. But like even when you look at people like the never trumpers the the the people who are supposed to like him in who rejected him many of the reasons why they don't like him and the reasons why I don't like him are his I. I feel are his horrible leadership qualities in this specific ones are rather than focus on leading people and inspiring people. He focuses on boasting about things you know and having to be the best in something and and never admitting like he could have been wrong about something you know. And it's this oily. You know salesman not to knock sales and there's a degree sales people help there. You know in people in real estate by the way not to knock that industry but a lot of his oily type of real estate salesman stuff you know and his trumpy stuff really really comes across so nakedly just ill prepared under leadership stage. You know he just feel so. Ill prepared to lead people. He really does. He only feels it. He becomes trump to me has become so much smaller right now in terms of in the whole leadership bubble thing not that. I had that big but this is an opportunity for the opposite to happen. This is an opportunity for him to drop all that crap and not be concerned about it and drop all these petty attacks on people because he's still in twitter making petty attacks even when you know his speech said to drop partisan politics and all this stuff but you know it's clear he didn't write that speech because he went right to continuing to attack people in such petty ways people. I mean I really don't care. During these times of crisis you know whether we have a Republican or Democrat in the White House. You know that kind of partisanship. I'm not that type of I don't care about that. I just want somebody who's GonNa lead you know and I really want to support what the president is saying and all that stuff regardless of who the president is and it is just he makes it so impossible in you know to me. It just makes me more angry more angry than everything. I'm trying to let it go because I'm trying to focus on other things but I think a lot of that bullshit gets in the way of of helping people and actual information when he just focuses on that crap so we can't rely on the information that he saying you know we have to try to not listen to his bullshit and maybe listened to some of the people around him who hopefully are giving us correct information and not just kissing his ads. You know there's already been evidence from some of the Republican lawmakers who were very franken their discussion about this outside of the ears of the president. But you know when they talk to private to private groups but within earshot of the president hadn't said Shit you know in have followed candidate Fox and friends model of acting like this was a hoax in a liberal conspiracy and now they're act- scared. Everything's they will you buy the bug as hope spread this ideology. The sifters really makes him. So you know you know back in the politics thing. This whole Democratic primaries taken on a whole different feeling I mean guys hoping I guess would be in this position guidance in OPEC did at the end of January beginning of February after Iowa New Hampshire. I mean he came in think about this. He came in fourth and fifth fourth and fifth. I mean it was pathetic. You know like right now by CNN is giving speeches from his house but he may as well have been doing back then because nobody was showing up right in the kind of comeback that he's made in now with this pandemic happening and people needing the comfort food that it. It seemed like bagging is providing to people by comfort. Food someone who they're familiar with someone who has led before you know. He was vice president for eight years. So He's been you know close to the highest position of power like that. I think that's the biggest reason why many voters are comfortable with Bagman. Who would've guessed that he'd be in this insurmountable position right now as the leader of this race? It's unbelievable I mean Tulsi. Gabbard dropped out of the rings today in has supported by. That's crazy it's crazy so the meaning of the primaries are a little different now you know a lot of the air has been taken out of it because of what's happened in who knows what's going to happen in this election. I think I've been predicting as you know. Dat At that trump is getting get reelected. I don't think that any more. I think the world is different now. You know the world's changed. He can't ride on the good economy anymore. I always said that was the biggest thing and that's gone and if if it's a personality contest and if it's a contest of Leadership. I have no idea how how trump wins now. So my mind is changed about that. Um completely different. That's good news. I know I'm not putting that energy out there because I didn't want to put that in chapter so energy changed you guys energy change. I feel like A. We'll have a leader who though not perfect at least wants to lead in the proper way you know and that would be something good to look forward to. Hopefully you have much right now. I'M GONNA be checking. Md guys in different ways. Because we're doing this differently now I might do You know some short pods which just mean talking and that kind of stuff and weighing in on stuff might do some instagram live events. I did one with the Tommy. Alter last week just off the cuff. But I might do some more structured things like that with some friends so look for that. I'll announce that on twitter instagram facebook. That kind of stuff and And I'll be doing some other kinds of two. I'm really interested right now. Tell you a little personal thing wrote quick. One thing that I've been interested in for a longtime my good friends now. This family members This is appetite of Showbiz but I really have a have an interest in the kind of the self help area the inspiring other people type of Arium in years ago developed kind of a philosophy. Kinda help people in that kind of stuff up shared with some friends and other people and it's really helped them and I think this is a good time for me to start sharing that with you guys. I think I've shared a little bit at some point. I'm going to start doing that in a more structured way. I'm GONNA be Doing some Events with a friend of mine. Who's an expert in this area and it's kind of a thing that I'm I won't say transitioning to but I'm going to bring more to the Front. It's not it's not comedy tonight. Show Biz. It's all in the in the area of just reaching out to people helping people. Helping to clarity in their lives fulfillment you know in. You know just have live more authentic existence. Let's say just just to ease the anxieties of our lives and everything but it's real exciting. Something very excited about and I'll put something that you guys when enjoying and maybe You know who knows if we can if we can just get out there and make the world a little better be great all right coming up we got Kinda darting Really really interesting conversation. We'll talk about this housing problem. In America I welcome back. Everybody got a little treat here today. We get somebody. Just put a little book out now. This guy's this book is a must read. I think for the state of our world. Today's call Golden Gate's fighting for housing in American Connor. Dougherty hopefully put out there. Ed Ghana is here at Connor. Thanks so much for being on black on the air that you so much for having me. I love the show. It's such a treat. I talked to you months ago about this when you told me I met conor when I met you. Somewhere in highland park we went to dinner. Yes exactly which is a trip. And by the way very relevant to this conversation because when I've lived in L. A. in two thousand. That was not a hot area. Yes now it's being pushed out you've heard so even though it was a great restaurant there. There are people who are unhappy about that. This is a good starting point for. I mean this is an issue. That isn't talked about that much. And I think is not really understood even by myself. There's so many layers you know and you give a history of some of this and other but what was your way in. Were you observing? This or was an assignment. I know you're journalist for the times and everything or reside. Look people gotta know about what's going on. I think so if I have to. I'm an economics reporter New York Times so everything. I do is probably rooted to some degree in beat reporting. And I that when you're thinking about the economy you can get so deep into interest rates and all these things but the real big question is how are we doing right. And what are the opportunities to do? Better and how many people can access those opportunities and racing class in all these different things? How has opportunity distributed in America? Does economics is usually so much just left in the abstract totally nine in the practical exactly so if you go back and look at America at its apex what we could debate how the apex looks but we call this generation is what I meant like the fifties and sixties. There was tremendous racism then so we can't say everything was better than now. I'm not talking about it. You know so if you look and you say why are we the richest country in the world? What makes us a rich society? Not just a country with a lot of rich people Russia's some rich people we don't think of them as a rich society housing was always this singular symbol. That are way our way of life. Our economy was winning was better. Yeah and there's this famous moment in I forget exactly what Richard Nixon when he was. The vice president went to this symposium in in Russia and they had a model ranch house of the sword you see all around Los Angeles and he said to Nikita Khrushchev. A steelworker could afford this. America didn't believe it. Nobody believes that they'd been all this propaganda. Saying this is no more typical of Americans home than the Buckingham Palace is a typical home in England. Wow and they're all sorts of people around this country who have lived in pretty nice homes and this having bigger homes having them full of creature comforts was always for a long time our symbol that we are winning look at America today or being able to in another base being able to house your family yet. How it'd be bigger? I mean foreigners have for decades remarked that Oh my God Americans. Poor people live very large home. Nice comfortable that has always been something we did much better than other people share and now you look at America and this is not just true in California although we are the we are the worst child in this In this problem and chosen California's kind of the the lab for this observations exactly and we can get into. Why chose that Biennium go home? But you know you look around this country and there's a huge homeless problem is a million fictions year. I think about a quarter of ten and spend more than half their income on rent so housing has gone from this singular symbol of everything. We were doing right to now. It feels like a singular symbol of this economy. Gone wrong when we ask ourselves. What is the inequality story really look like? It's not just tax rates and all these things we talk about we go. Wow what it looks like to me is. There are some people who are homeless. That's the most extreme version of it but people who live very far away from their jobs and commute three hours or more that is what I think inequality actually looks like and so what I tried to do in this book is the housing finance is the housing phenomena. Yeah and also. Most of wealth inequality is housing. Most of the black white wealth gap is white families having much higher home equity so Bloomberg. Just just mentioned this. The other day in a statement part of his plan People are just go off on a tangent. But if you're like how come back. People are supporting Bloomberg. You know. There's this question something for his. He's specifically is targeted home ownership as a means of creating wealth for blacks that they've been cut out of that historically in the ways that whites haven't you know and to try to mend that gap through home ownership. It's very and it's a message. That's hitting home with a lot of bikes. Who felt that that arm keeping them at bay whether the Red Lining or bank loans or whatever totally if you I mean if you look at the wealth consequences of red lining their profound oh completely absolutely generational. Now I mean it's it's up there on the like generational heights of all time and I I will say redlining is one term for what occurred but it's more than redlining. You've mentioned a lot of this book. Which is Great? There's so many stones that are you uncovering this bigger fuck. I didn't even know about that. You know that are fascinating of how not just racially but just the division of class how it's kept out of certain neighborhoods class distinctions and even people who might disagree with like Charles Murray. Did you ever read his book coming apart? I'm aware of it. He talked about this in a different. I've had numerous essays about it. Yeah essays I don't trust I read the book because his his summaries of it yes exactly but he talks about this from a different perspective from a conservative perspective of how these neighborhoods changed in how. There's a different feel in the neighborhoods at some point in terms of class. You know but you don't necessarily want you know mixtures in neighborhoods after totally and I see this. This is not obviously historically this has been a white thing because they had a lot of the power. This is not a universally wiping right. There are all sorts of black people. You mean there's one in this book who and this is not for reasons. That are irrational or even racist obviously policing being the like right giant cloud over all this but who liked to live in a neighborhood where they feel some degree of comfort with people like them. This does not have to be race although in this country. That's what's Hanging over but you see religious divisions in other countries between people who look identical. You see obviously you say class divisions so you do see there. Is something probably tribal about us? But this country is kind of like this grand experiment in trying to break that down and I think housing as you see in the book through a lot of these different there are some moments in the book where I talk about. People voting one way nationally in a totally opposite way locally and you can see and so actually think one of the things. I love about this about doing. This book is local. Government is were so much of this actually happens. We passed fair housing in the nineteen sixty eight civil rights. Act Go for us to do the next day all the neighborhoods. Were just completely integrate right. So many local governments came up with ways to be like no. That doesn't apply. Let's the same schools to precisely. So this is where we actually find out who we are. This is where we find out. Do these things we do these values. We profess to hold and vote for in these landslide. Elections in these moments does any of that matter or are we really paving the way for that world to actually be created on the ground and I think housing is the singular expression of that because who were willing to live near and who were willing to share space with really determines what we really mean. Well let's see. I WanNa get more specific. Let's talk about. Let's go back to says you do a good job of kind of laying it out historically. Nfl You you kind of start with the Morbid Contemporary Story in San Francisco and everything but you talk about where you're The Post World War Two period. And what was happening. Even you go over to Levittown for a little bit to talk about that. We just significant. But let's just take me through that period of of how you saw housing developing and the ramifications of that. Maybe going forward is that right. Yeah so I think that the history of US America particularly with housing but with so many things begins at the end of World War Two. That's when the economy went crazy. That's when I mean facturing. The kind of good factory jobs that we now missed. That was when all that was happening. And how did housing exist break before this right? So at the end of World War Two we had a horrific housing shortage because there had been the Great Depression and then there was the war and during the war they were rationing so they weren't building much data and you read the stories of that time it's like there was people advertising live in chicken coup and there is a famous Add Place in Omaha newspaper. That said here's an icebox at somebody could sleep in this curled up this way. I mean it was like a legitimate classified blow living. Yes so there's a huge housing shortage that was rectified. Pretty suddenly the country but look something one hundred thousand homes a year in nineteen forty million just like a couple of years later when you can just imagine how transformed like timber industries. I'll be all these things. It transform even the notion of the middle class right almost like we created a middle class because it almost seemed like this. The stratification of the hasn't halves. That was like nobody's ever seen during the thirties. Right exactly and so we built tons of housing and we built suburbs exist at that time but I really built the suburbs as we know them now and got on a path to most people living in a suburb. Which is where we are. Now that's kind of the predominant form of American living. And would you say aside and I know that the people who lived in suburbs where they Driving to cities for work So in some cases there were trains were sat book Revolutionary Road. That's kind of doing that. but then of course we started. Have these factory towns. Okay I mean and if you think about it. The factory was so different than our economy today. Where it's not just Detroit. I mean if you go to the mid West there's Janesville there's been rapid there's all these towns that have very good. Solid JR is obviously most prevalent in the Midwest. But they all these towns where they were a building kind of these little unit towns where they have suburban housing around it and then a factory town so anyway so we built the postwar suburbs. One thing I think is important just kind of around the country also did this thing called redevelopment which James Baldwin famously called Negro Room. That's true but one of the things and this is something. I was talking to somebody about last night. At that time with redevelopment there were some really great progressive plants. But what they would do with redevelopment there were some people were talking about consciously desegregating creating all these different things in cities and then we built the postwar suburbs and as the crowding kind of as the crowding problem was dealt with. They didn't want to do development the same way anymore and suddenly they used it as an excuse to bulldoze black neighborhoods and do civic projects and stuff like that. I always and you when you say that you're talking about civic leaders or business. Some combination like chamber of Commerce types and local so anyway we have this big suburban boom after World War. Two and that really segregates US segregation. Didn't exist then. But it was not like twenty thirty miles separation where people were really living in like homogenized. Most people were now living. In most white people should note Living in the truly homogenized units that are nowhere near neighborhoods With other kinds of people in them so I think that that created some huge problems. That might not have been as bad if we hadn't created this huge separate but anyway so that happened. Suburbs happened and then and as we talk about in the book and this has been very well documented by other people. This book called the color of law in Nineteen Basically the fha loans that the government backed loans that were helping people buy homes and things like that and supporting the whole. Housing Complex is being built company. And I always joke that. They're like of their time in that. All these government they weren't like real companies real companies with this government funding behind that many of the major movements in this country. The move out West. You know the suburb. We're backed by government Totally Largesse I'd just as in all the highway so anyway we get this this big suburban thing and it was almost exclusively given to why people meaning black mixed. That's what redlining is mixed race neighborhoods. It's even mixed race. Neighborhoods could not get loans government loans. So I mean. This is the premise of the color of law. Which is that this is a government created segregation in that they're backing of these loans is what created these these neighborhoods to be so homogenized because If you specifically keep one group of people out of those neighborhoods by not giving them access to loans I mean that is. That is the government's fault and design. And that's we clear it's double dance you know. It's not just the banks the government. It's the people in the neighborhood to total. This is Like I don't want I always want to make sure I keep it. Hundreds of people the the way that racism Kurt in America was not like the clan operating in this evil force. This was normal behavior. It was not considered abnormal to society to think that black shouldn't be with weights. This is how people thought so. They didn't think they were being evil. You know that this is just the way the world is you know and so there was collusion of this. It wasn't just like a bad actor like I don't want people to think there was like if not for these evil beings no matter vigers. Everybody they were in collusion of this. They agreed with the people that live there. Now like the people wanted something different you know and the banks were in the way the banks and the neighborhoods agreed on this. So there's this famous quote I use it in my book where Levitt says I can solve a housing problem or is it can solve race problem but I can't solve both what he's saying. It looks like such a level of Which is kind of the original plan. Acid builds suburb. What he saying. It looks so evil. Now in retrospect would he's really saying is can't have a business if you're going to force me to build mixed race neighbor because people won't buy it right he saying it's not my fault but hey. I'm a business guy what am I gonNA do? He's not wrong right so I it's it's a. It's a shocking painful quote to read. In retrospect but it does give you a sense of how someone building a business in a very practical way. At that time I was thinking as you say it was normalized. Exactly outlier right. Yeah so I feel like the book goes into history at one point and then it kind of brings us up today and says okay. We had this huge housing problem We have all these inequality problems all these things we talked about. How are we going to deal with this? And who were the people dealing with this? And what do their stories look like? And how's it going one of the things I love about this? Is You talk a lot about national politics on your show and well and it's so it's so fundamental that binds us. We all feel like we have stake in it. We all vote for the same people. The choices are are. Get two choices really. They're definitely only choices between the parties. The local government is research. The action happens lately. It's and it can be boring and I think I hope you agree with this. It does not come off as boring in this book. Thousand percent agreeing because Anybody who watches parks and recreation which is like not that heightened of a reality if you look at that show. Local Government is bananas. People show. I just give these crazy speeches. They have nothing to do with with what's going on in the meeting right. The city council people are trying to like manage this unruly room. It's almost like the simpsons. Townhall get together and everyone starts. Who's kind of arguing with each other? This is weird process singing about this on the way over. It's almost like don't mean this. How it how it comes up almost like everyone is donald trump. And I'm joking but what. I don't mean their ideology. Everyone's rookie everyone in this politics. In mogul politics is like figuring out as they go along and I think that makes it's so exciting and funny because they don't know what they're doing and and so one of the main in this book. Is this woman. Sonia trials will. She's a woman from Philadelphia. Dropped out of Grad school moved to San Francisco finds out. It's so easy to get job. Anyone gain a job in San Francisco but it's impossible to find a place to afford rent so she starts showing up to And this is like two thousand thirteen to two thousand eleven says pretty recent so she starts showing up to board of supervisors meeting. San Francisco doesn't have a city council for weird reasons and San Francisco. Yeah and it's because it's a county in a city wrapped in one anyway. So she's showing up and saying you need to build more housing. You don't have enough housing in this city. You're building all these jobs. Creating all these jobs but not building housing for people who are taking those jobs this is crazy and she says I'm from the SF Bay Area Renters Federation. It's called BARF so that Susan. This is somebody who truly does not know what they're doing now. That might seem like a crazy story that you could find an ABC city in America. But suddenly she's got all these followers all these people from Silicon Valley giving all this money and as I kind of track it in the book there starts to create so as everyone knows people who don't want housing near them are sometimes called not in my backyard right. Nimby Nimby shows up and says the NBA. Yes in my backyard. That's a good acronym that's better than buyer F- Well then their group that has subsequently kind of formed around her now has thousands of members and tons of money they are called in be so it's become a yes yes in my back and so there's this whole now and I and I started tracking this through the course of the book. They had this big meeting in bold and others nationwide. Yembi movement as I've been on book tour and all these different cities New York weirdly Washington. Dc Seattle all these groups show up to these book events And and and it's weird. They're like twenty five. They're super into local government. I know about you. I was into like going to bars meeting and stuff when I was twenty. Five is not going to planning meetings on Wednesday night and they're so drunk people laugh in comedy precisely right or at least it's like they`re. This has become like a thing. In America that younger professional type people are getting really into housing policy? And and that's also what makes it funny as it's going to social scene for them they say these ridiculous things at these meetings and so I feel like I was joking to someone that this book is almost like parks and REC in real life. Where these people? You're just like what what? Why did they say this these meetings? It's crazy and then as we can get into. There's they are. They tend to be wider. More Professional Group Then we have a whole anti gentrification movement and they sometimes clashed with these people and sort of asking how these these groups can find some common cause fuse like a more important question than whether or not Americans vote for you know. Bloomberg or trump or band or trump. Or what's fascinating about the journey of your book to is that things that start off kind of black and Lang metaphorically and literally two. They become a little more complicated. You know because not all alliances necessarily laying up where you think. They should line up right totally. Tried to go out with the utmost respect for peoples share spectacles. Yeah so many times you say I might have done that too. Also voted like I can understand the so. There's this Guy Damian Goodman who I met in the book and he's a big activist Olympic Park which I'm sure the neighborhood you're familiar with in Los Angeles. It's a it's A. It's a center of black culture in Los Angeles. It's a really special neighborhood. Honestly it's it's not well known is not as well known as Harlem but it has that caliber of history right and she is very anti efforts to make it easier to build housing in that type of community Cassini. Because he's worried about change for the transportation he starts building alliances with people like Beverly Hilton Style. Because they're worried about it for the complete opposite reasons like whatever when it comes to stopping something. I don't want to find anybody who will work who they are. Yeah and one of the things I think is a is kind of. I think that some people will look at that alliance and go. Oh it's the Beverly Hills people kind of papa cheering the the The black neighborhoods. So that they can have kind of like a human shield. That's bullshit the many of the activists in anti gentrification in neighborhoods where people worried about gentrification are extremely calculating about who and how they are building alliances. And I think it's I think that's to be respected. Because that's their perspective. That's their agency. That's they're just hoping played by anybody. Maybe it's a large policy level. It might not work out for them. Because if we don't build as much housing it will start to create more gentrification. I believe that. But when it comes to the politics I think it's terribly demeaning to portray people in anti transportation alliances as being kind of controlled by these other groups. How would you define gentrification? I feel like it's one of those terms that's used in a way where we're supposed automatically take sides on him but I don't think it's ever really examined for the actual like what actually occurs because I'd make jokes about it and everything so yeah. I don't WanNA can starbucks and my name wait. They have lots. I totally. There's jobs. Well what does it mean? Exactly yeah I totally agree with you and I'm super super interested in asking that question because actually thought may do this. So nobody's steelers but I thought about for the Times. We've done a lot of things where we asked readers to submit things in the creek graphics. I think famously we did you balance the federal budget and you see it pretty evenhandedly. They are cutting defense spending a little bit like when you actually ask them so you. Brian's on it yeah you find out. People aren't nearly as ideological as they as they claim to be as their politicians bright claim that that completely believe that. Because you're forced to take a side on something supposed to force to do something exactly so I've always asked. I have been truly thinking to figure out how to design it. What is gentrification? We don't really does gentrification mean. Does it have to be white right? Does it mean only higher income people does it have to mean you're displaced typically? Those are good questions if we built a ton of housing and all the people who currently there had the option to stay But we also had a lot of wealthier housing there with that then gentrification even if it right so I does. The color of the people doing gentrification make it not centrifugation not gentrification as a professor at claim Lance Freeman African American himself and he has done a bunch of studies essentially so that most gentrification of black neighborhoods is black gentrification to Harlem being bachelor the most prominent example of this is kind of the idea behind empowerment zones. Yeah and I I. It's a loaded term in the political context but when you ask what it really means what it looks like. It becomes a complicated term. So for instance. There's a whole saga. I follow in this book. This is not exactly gentrification but I think it's it's. It's shows you kind of use that. This book is not as Is complicated this girl who comes home. She's fifteen years old. She comes home. One day finds a note taped to her door. Says your rent's going up. Eight hundred dollars. Celestino girl in Redwood city which is in the Silicon Valley but I picked it because it's a very typical city doesn't it's going to bring control. They don't have any ten protections could be any town. Usa and she starts organizing figures out that she wants to fight the landlord. I should say just to give you a sense of who? She is her mom. Who is in the book as well? She's a she's elder cleaned. Houses and then Moonlights as a janitor. So she's like the person takes care of your granny the person who cleans your house under the table and the person who comes in to empty the trash cans of as you're leaving the office high and you. Kinda give them away. She's all those pizza working class. She's all those people in one day right so they organize the get a crappy buyout meaning that the landlord says here's fifteen hundred bucks if you leave quietly rather than protesting me all the time and let me ask you this question when they put a sign like that is that circumventing. What's legal about the ability to raise rent a certain amount is it? Is it circumventing that by doing this in L. A. as their laws against some places Rent control is incredibly rare America. It's in La. It's an Oakland San Francisco New York. A couple of other places most states not only don't ever in control they had a state prohibition uneven contemplating control the State says no city can even think about this. So that's why that city because of that city is what most Americans are going through. I was actually very. I wanted a place that didn't have a lot of tenant protections because that's typical San Francisco. They have a ton at ten protections in the story had been totally different. The person would have been like. I'm going to the Union. You know sure well. The story may be the other way around maybe ten protection at the expensive of mobility. And Yeah so anyway. After they get kicked out priced out. I went to go meet. The family moved in because I wanted to see this whole process. Play out through the eyes of one apartment. It's another Latino family with almost the exact same jobs that two brothers worked construction in the MOM. Did some house cleaning but they just pack eight people into the same apartment that used to have four so that they could afford this much higher rent. Now that's extremely typical. So that's like gentrification right you would never call that gentrification But it's like more like churn. It's all these people. Kind of constantly churning with each other to to to fight each other over this very very very small supply of a fort of of apartments that call them. Affordable is like twenty five hundred bucks a month but that they can even afford meeting. That aren't more than one hundred percent of what they make in a in a in a in a month so I think that when you watch that story you see that there's a lot of opportunity a lot of jobs for all different incomes of all different kinds of people in in places like Los Angeles San Francisco all these booming cities in America. But they're so few affordable apartments that even even poor people are competing with each other. Like mad I mean they don't think of it that way but when you really look at what's happening in the market by following stories like the one I followed you can see there's this feverish competition for any space. And so I think that that kind of then leads the story back to the to the bar people which is how do we actually create through the political process more housing and more affordable housing? As well and so. I'm trying to kind of like we've together these stories from the very poorest people in Some time at home encampment and all that but I was more interested in the working poor. Frankly because I felt like when I see people working at target I just always ask myself like what are they go? How does this work is and San? Francisco's an interesting lab. Because it seems to be a lot of extremes built in there and you touch a little bit on the tech companies kind of these are my words but kind of artificially inflating prices there you know in areas where it makes it almost impossible for people to live in unless you make crazy amount of money but people make crazy amount of money. Don't necessarily want to live there like this this paradox. That's happening there. You know it's it's it is the poster child for what has gone wrong and they're crazy. It makes headaches. Blue picked San Francisco for companies one. Because it's funny pages on this book turned because people do crazy ass shit. Oh completely when you I? It's still gets the crazy stuff out of it system. Yeah so we don't have to do it in the other so Sony with like in most cities people kit the fuck out of here. But what happens to San Francisco some multimillionaire founder of Yelp macgyver with hundreds of millions? Oh my God I love what you're doing. Can I give you some money to do more? It's crazy right so it's a fun place. But the thing is San Francisco. It might be more extreme. Might be funnier. But it's so typical of where America's these days because we had this bifurcated economy and the and the economy is a lot of people making a pretty good livings in some cases astronomically. Good livings in what we call like knowledge industries. You know it could be comedy could be you could be comedy and entertainment but it could be also streaming all those things but obviously the poster child for it as tech right. It's kind of based around and let's call it data as the as the heading because data could be a lot of things right well as opposed to a product like people's whose minds or talent is multiplied by some sort of device. So you're a funny guy and you and I are sitting in this room right now and you're entertaining me with all the performance stuff. You've learned after all these years of being embarrassed I'm juggling as we're talking about. Thirty stock built this skill. Set of what makes it so valuable is that you have a microphone right. And there's an engineer in the other room and then there's the ringer network and all that takes what's happening in this room and allows you to talk to all these millions of people and you can make income from all those right. Charlie Chaplin was the was the poster child for this where I was going to stop saying poster in early in his career you could say to Garrett type if you go back fire and also early in his career. He could only talk to stages only work in a theater highly limited. How could do because you gotta pack the place by the end of his career? There are movies and if you look at his income overtime it's indicative of what happens right. So there's all these people in the country who some sort of device beat a microphone or a software platform or whatever is making them wealthy beyond imagination just by the power of their mind what they can build with software stuff like that and then there's service people people like this woman who cleans houses People who teach gym classes people who do retail jobs people do all sorts of different things we need in a day. Those people not only don't get paid as much because they don't have the benefit of this like multiplying device with microphones and computers. But they have to be near these other people because they're essentially waiting on them so our economy is bifurcated into these people who who through the power of technology can make all this money and do very well knowledge industries. The kind of the thing that's growing again tech is the the main version of this? The richest man in the world has made through tech. And then there's all these other people who have to be near them and our housing market does not like at all reflect that a that. The economy is so stratified but also be. They have to be next to each other. Economy is constructed so that these people are working side by side and right now they just don't live side by side and I'm not saying we have to build some crazy Utopian neighborhood where the richest person living next the poor person poorest person. I'm just saying right now. The the people in the service sector have to commute two three four hours anywhere near them and that just seems terribly unfair and that is why I hope we can with through policy in local politics and all these horrific fights. I track in the book. Bat is the problem I want to see solved. And what about the middleclass? You know person to the nurse. The teacher you know the people in that are not in the service industries. But they're not in you know the upper level industries too because they seem to be cut in the biggest trap in this you know not able to afford the more expensive housing because housing and I want to ask you this question about. Why have prices increase not just in California but everywhere over the past forty years if you start from nine thousand nine hundred seventy nine nine thousand nine hundred eighty two now only education? Which is also a thing. I'm really mad about those two sectors to me have increased in ways that no other sector in America has so I believe has affected the middle class people who were able to afford like my parents who are their houses. Thirteen thousand dollars. I think about it in nineteen sixty two you know. And they're my father's probation assume. My mom didn't work the ability for that. You know what I mean. That's not a service job you know. That's more of you know it's in a different arena. But they had the wherewithal to having nice home for their families and stuff you know. So what's what happened? There you know sorta like because people coming out of this is what's going on. People are coming out of college with degrees. You know who want to go and certain types of jobs in the thought of getting a house is alien to them. Totally and the homeownership rate amongst young adults like multi decade low. Correct like Molina's like this is just never going to happen totally so I think that you bring up an excellent excellent point. Which is that the so-called missing middle right is who is hurt the most in this conversation because nobody's trying to pass a big government program for them and honestly they wouldn't want it they don't want to. I mean I'm not saying they wouldn't want people who work really hard go to college to become a teacher who don't want to think like oh. I have to go fill out some form to get my house. They won't just be participated and they've I think they generally understand this is the lower paying profession. And I make that decision but I wanNA have some level right. They have trouble can make people could make two hundred thousand dollars a year in up you forward. Yeah so I yeah so so. Those people that class of persons journalists kind of in that class is someone we should be thinking about so what we need to do is figure out some way to build a lot more housing and to build a lot more housing pretty much where people already live. I'm not saying that we have to figure out how to do that. How do that through democratic process? What never touched him. Whatever is a highly complicated thing that I track in this book. And I'M GONNA try to say this is a good idea. This is a bad idea. I'm just say here. The people having this fight. Let's just talk to them and watch them have that fight but we need to build a lot more housing and we need to build a where people already live unless we build some rocket car that allows people to live in Bakersfield and commute to L. A. In a reasonable time. That's probably what we're going to have to do. And then we need to build more higher density housing. I do not mean thirty. Four story luxury CONDO with a ten million dollar penthouse. I mean like old philly row homes. Three story no elevator. Kind of those blocks. You Seem Baltimore and places like that. Which though they look. Don't look terribly good right now. They there was a time when they were thriving places. We could build that kind of housing again. It has to be compact but isn't it to be the tallest possible thing. So that's going away from the model that the fifties promise It seems like year assault your little salty these in my own words. Hello Salty about that single family home with the big one and that type of thing and I'm like Yeah S. Right when brothers can start getting this kind of stuff kind of salty about people having these So that's my own editorial better I should say my wife is african-american outgassing. I'm not I'm not. Don't you still salty. I didn't say I never said that any interview. Here's do and she said the other day someone in San Francisco was giving her this whole socialist thing she goes. We just got here round for our. She said we just got here. I WANNA hang out at this party face checking and see if I like it and then you can start talking to me about this socialism. Bullshit only problem with Bernie Sanders. Who I love I hold on Berry. Brothers are just starting to get there now. You WanNA redistribute so no and but that's serious stuff. So Lamar Park this Guy Damian. That is a lovely lovely neighborhood right. Anybody would go to that neighborhood and be like wow. This is really nice to get this wonderful retail strip. The houses of these cute Anglos and so they are actually trying to protect that Abraham for many of the same suburban kind of reasons that you just laid out so I totally appreciate that. I don't know what to say other than we've built a Shitload of jobs in the middle of these cities we created shoe demand for people to work in these places right. We don't have places for them to live. We gotTa fucking build them somewhere. So it's not I. I'm just saying it's like I feel like there's this imbalance everyone created and then the act. I didn't know it was happening. I mean look. This is where the Silicon Valley gets. Bananas you go look at. I don't know if anybody who's listening or you have seen the apple headquarters but it's this iconic spaceship looking flying saucer thing Cupertino California which is not a big place. They didn't build any housing around that right. So that's like the equivalent of like a gigantic skyscraper. In the middle of this little town like people know that people are going to work there. All Day If they're not going to build housing for them is going to be a lot of traffic so. I don't think I think it's pretty dishonest. Go let's put the giant office building there. Oh my God. We don't have enough housing. We didn't know this was happening. Save my neighborhood. It's kind of like you were. You are creating the conditions for your neighborhood to be kind of a place where people want to build. Yeah but that is your decision you. You are sending your city on that trajectory and you're GONNA have to own up to the responsibilities of having to house some of the people who work there. How much of an influence you know? Because the tech thing is kind of an interesting thought. I have different feelings about this whole notion of I'M NOT GONNA pick anyone company but I have a couple of mine where they have this entire ecosystem you know and You WanNa go to the cleaners these walls. We gotTA cleaners here. You WanNa have lunch. We got free lunch air. Why do you need to go onto and it to me? This small businesses that could profit from that from the people who are making a lot of money to use the businesses in the city to help the city thrived. So it's in it's in this walled environment where it's like. Hey how about I get away from this place for an hour for my talk about that but it wants to keep everything there and you know. It's not just one company. There are many tech companies. That do this now and to me that hurts local economies and has an effect on this as well. Don't you think this comes up constantly? The local businesses in Silicon Valley San Francisco in that area where people are travelling through on the buses. And all that stuff so it's not always so everything you just said on top of that it's really socially corrosive because whether or not people are subliminally getting the message. Yeah their neighbors right. Are subliminally getting the message. You have no stake in the yes in the public. Challenge the correct. Fuck your public transportation. Because I don't have to deal with exactly exactly right. I don't care that there aren't healthy options at that Deli. 'cause WE GOT. Qinhua at the co- corporate cafeteria totally agree so there can be as sort of contempt. That's kind of underneath of there for you know just Public accommodation for businesses. And all that kind of stuff totally and I. I don't think the tech companies like went into it but he does start to it. Subliminally sends the message to people. You can't we do not have to worry about the same problems as you. So we're not going to participate in trying to solve them democratically anti-community as far as I'm concerned and and this I truly believe that many so when there's a number of points in the book where you have people like this Damian Goodman or or a bunch of anti gentrification activist in San Francisco Fighting with these kind of people who tend to be younger professionals in San Francisco. They are heavily weighted in tech industry. And sometimes they're fighting over things that I'm like. Why are you finding over this like the need to build more? Housing is so obvious that you should be fighting over. How or where but not the fact that you need to do it. I think that's social corrosion that you and I discussed guests creates a situation where people cannot believe that the other people behind that wall have any stake in their community so whatever solution they're offering it can't possibly be a one that could benefit all people because look at how they live their lives. They live their lives behind closed doors. I don't want anything. Those people are offering. Because I don't feel like they have a stake in in the same problems that I'm experiencing right and and I think that's really bad because sometimes it closes people off to ideas that sometimes might be good ideas and both directions and they. They become ideological rather than practical. Yeah one of the things. I love about local government. Though is there's no fucking Democrats. There's it's so it's it's like Texas people like free market no regulation fuck. Now you're not building a giant building next to my ranch house no way. I'M GONNA pass whatever law to make sure that can't happen. Xactly arm of the state is my friend there. Flipside you see all sorts of people in San Francisco who are like Oh you know sunshine and daisies the rich whatever. Yes fuck that. You can't build an affordable housing complex near me. My house is worth five million dollars right no way so you see also supported in the abstract but not in the practical and I like that about it. I think because it's it makes ask what we're really four and what we're really willing to sacrifice and also how we're going to like actually create a more equitable kind cohesive society You know the kinds of things that great public schools used to Absolutely I think so I I I. This is why I thought it was fun to focus on. The book is about all of America in housing. But I do spend a lot of time thinking about the bay area. The reason is to kind of like really unpack. How local government works. I mean you couldn't do that in every place. You kind of just got to pick a place and delay what our city council meetings as zoning work and how to. There's this whole other narrative the one that President Obama tweeted. I'd read an excerpt in the New York Times about this suburb. That is fighting an apartment complex. Which is of course this is classic store. You could find any city in America and it's about this city manager which is kind of like the effective. Ceo of the city. Trying to find a middle way. And he just gets pulverized from one grouping like I want a bigger and the other grouping smaller and then he has to resign in the middle of the whole thing that story which again so that became an exit the New York Times. That was the thing. President Obama tweeted and that story is so typical where people are trying to build slightly higher housing density. And that and I should say it's a suburb but it's not that it's a five miles from Oakland. It's it's it's right there next to a giant job center so I think that looking at how local governments like that work that is by large. Who gets to decide where how and it will cost. We build shelter. This human being human need human right in America. An so unpacking how those million little city council's are who determine where and how and how much we build shelter and that's like this profoundly important thing the other thing though I would say. And this is the part run super optimistic. People can feel very very distant from federal government. It's you know they get to vote for in the primary and then they get to vote for president but we got all these things like the Electoral College. And if you're in California I just vote even matter because it only matters what in Ohio does or whatever and it's not like you can can. You can write a letter to the president. Or what can you really do? You can call your congressman all these things local government if you start showing up to city council meeting. It is insane. How fast they will start listening to you so when saying that people are like. Why are they fucking listening to me? I don't anything about this. I just showed up to a meeting. And it's actually. It's actually like really cool to see these people showing up and and and realizing how by local democracy which has a absolutely huge impact on my actual daily life. I can have an influence on it. I can participate in that truly degree. I never thought imaginable. The seat of power could be a folded chair right around the corner from watching these people inside of this book. In addition to all these individual stories like this fifteen year old tentative organizer in this poor bugger in the suburbs and this barf person and then there's this done. Yeah there's this none in the book goes around. There's as you said there's been so you said earlier there's all these kind of speculators going around buying apartment buildings with with tons of money and then inviting everyone kind of raising the cost of housing. This none then goes and faces off against those guys. Try by these apartments before they can get to them amazing story. Yeah so there's all these lovely stories of these people also realized that's not very practical to well. She's just she's it's thousand cuts right. She has a problem and she tries to solve it right for her flock. You know that's her but inside of it also this kind of lovely little story of kind of people discovering their political awakening and being like wow. I can because there's so many people in politics that they seem like mercenaries from five years old. They wanted to be president and they became a Rhodes scholar. And whatever right. But then there's also these people who just sort of like accidentally get into politics. Joe I just Kinda went down there and the next thing and those people are so inspiring because they don't know what they're doing and they are just kinda like figuring it out and they sort of show the rest of us will. I could do that too. Yeah but the the biggest puzzle to me for California Is the homeless puzzle right now because I think there's so many things thrown at that either make people feel good or seems like it's the solution but when you're on the ground you realize no that's not it you know and I believe it exists in at least two different forms and people treat it like it's the same thing there's what I'll call the lost generation homeless. The people who you know either have mental illness or they're they're kind of out of society. I'll call you know Were there road back in either through jobs or whatever is at is such a sec- in you know road back to normalcy. It's almost impossible. And then there's the the broken working class homeless people who families some families intact. There's a story about this news this morning. Who just can't afford a place to live there staying motels sometimes living in their cars for time. You know depending on who it is. They're they're transient through like relatives impact. Kind of separate. They're basically homeless. There they may not be on the street all the time but they're basically homeless you know and there's two different solutions for that. It's not the same problem. I totally agree. So without making this huge policy discussion. Right you can save those. You can prevent that working poor class population from becoming homeless for startling little costs. I mean sometimes an intervention of six seven hundred dollars at like one moment and prevent their life from spiraling out of control. And that's true and I'm so policy should recognize that there's so many cheap solutions to this that yet one of them at a local civic level that doesn't require you know all this young Gargantuan things that are hard to get past and then at some larger level we have to build kind of what we call radically affordable housing where you can get like a some kind of apartment for like three hundred bucks so you know what I always tell people. I love this story member. Big The movie Big Tom. Hanks okay. So there's this he could kid goes he makes the wish and the next thing you know. He's Tom Hanks is the twelve year old kids. He's Tom Hanks and he goes home. And His mom's like so the fucker you like a child molester or whatever like I'm Tom Hanks yeah exactly. You still splash. And he can't come can't she? Can't stay there. And then he goes to his body and he called his buddy's house either. Because you can't be like this is my third year old friend right so well you remember the plot exactly rewind so they have to go find him a place to stay and they have like twelve right so they don't have money to go to New York and they'd go to this church terrifying hotel where the guys to give them the sheets and the guy's like new teeth ray. And then they go up to the hotel on the hillock gunshots next door and they're freaking out and FAO Schwarz and before that until such crying and puts the dresser in front of the door. That room had a bad. It was probably like a wire bed with a plastic mattress. And then there's no bathroom no sink. No nothing brag. There used to be those are called single room occupancy hotels SRO's as there used to be tons of those went around the city there like luxury condos and stuff now. They destroyed them all so that used to be where people who now see homeless used to live. It used to be possible to be like kind of like a day laborer who has who kind of occasionally work. Maybe drank too much. Whatever but you could take five ten bucks right. Go get a room for the net. Some people call them cage hotels and you could stay in a place like that and be house. We essentially did not have homelessness in this country. That in my brain is now searching all the old movies where you see that type of House Spiderman used to live in an SRO. Wow Yeah what was the hitch moby with What's his name where he was the uncle and He started off in one of those turns out to be the bad uncle or whatever was yeah. We used to doubt like it starts off. He's in one of those totally so we used to have housing like this and it's gone so some way we're going to have to rebuild this radically affordable housing uh-huh that reflects the wages people are making now. Yeah this is good. Segue naughty for that type of thing. I feel like a lot of a lot of society. This is right and left to kind of class ninety. I totally agree. So you know what I say to people after giving this whole. Sro thing I just told you is almost like we need poor bad neighborhoods. Yeah that's hilarious. I mean yes. It's counterintuitive ever had with the shitty pawnbroker and and the pool. We need a couple more of those fucking nice now. It's not right and I say this joke. We're in the bad hookers these high classic hooker. Yes exactly where and my cats ended New York when I was like? I've just memory of it and you would see hookers like full-on in and that's not the case anymore. Yeah and so. We need insisting build like more shitty asked neighborhoods. People can get an apartment for like three or four hundred dollars right you ask to work as an example this to the New York which was New York almost went insolvent. You know awhile ago but you live in New York. You know many different classical living. Our friend Liebowitz talked about this. I mean at one point to where after the Disney vacation of you know Times Square and and you know Manhattan. It's impossible. You either have to be a complete. Bohemian or rich to be able to actually live as a family in New York. It's almost impossible now. Totally and this is the part that I think is. This is where the economics stuff I think is serious is the best thing you can do. And people like to other cleaning up by the way. Yeah people are like stop cleaning up our city. 'cause IT looks nicer. It feels nicer but nobody thinks. Oh maybe maybe there was a role for that yes such. This is really 'cause 'cause you don't want the other thing you really don't want it turns into a homeless encampment. I Know Street from the one. And it's the lesser of two evils in some ways and I I shouldn't say makes you feel like sh I mean everything shit so there's a lot of shame associated with of course. Of course there is by the way I was at a at a An event the other night in Seattle and this woman came up and asked a question. That fucking blew my mind and I said to her. You just blew my mind. I don't I don't have a response to this. But she said what do you think the psychological cost of all of us driving past this not feeling anything is like we are killing ourselves slowly by by just accepting says normal and I was like I was like I like. I said I didn't have an answer. I said you have contributed a great thought to this room. Unless just all sit with it for a second and then the next question but so I think that on top so just getting away from homelessness for a second the best thing you can do in America to give people a chance to see you're from L. A. I grew up Like out in pomona suburb. Yeah but you're it's there's no way there's no San Francisco there's no seattle. There are these giant Metro areas that are operating as this kind of interconnected region. Those places where innovation is happening and comedy is happening in these industries and streaming is happening all these industries. That aren't just for stars like you. There's all sorts of people who work in these jobs and good jobs through kind of create. This apparatus creams those shows. The opportunity to just be near that is that is huge chance for somebody to better themselves to enjoy the American dream into to get a better income and Detroit. Wisconsin the industrial engine of its time. All sorts of people were moving there there creating a middle class that obviously a tremendous race problems so it was like was perfect great but there was a escalator. That people could get near. Yes with pisses me off. What I think is incredibly unfair to the rest of America is at places like Silicon Valley when when those when you think about them. You think Oh. It's like impossible to live there. It's insane privilege to even be in San Francisco where anytime I travel anywhere. And this is becoming increasingly trove. La People say to you. Oh my God. It's so expensive to live there. I don't know how you manage it. That's fucked up because it shouldn't be that places that contain the industrial engines of our time. are seen as some like insane luxuries even live near and. I'm not saying you have to be able to live in the best neighborhood of Palo Alto or right above the Bart stop in the mission district. I'm just saying like somewhere in the vicinity that you can get to work and pick up your kids after school in a reasonable way and it's to to lock that off. That's why the book is called Golden. Gate's it's means that it's GonNa List Metaphor for we have gated off in the form of high housing prices in the form of gold these engines of prosperity. And that is bullshit. Especially since I mean you look at like Silicon Valley and stuff like that half the Silicon Valley is just Defense Department Spending Defense Department spending you. All these technologies are created through shoot government initiative episode. That means the rest of America and in our in America through the decades they played a fucking huge role in building those companies. That's not some San Francisco's known that Shit and so kind of walling it off from the rest of the country and again this is true and lots of other places Minneapolis. I spend lot of time in Minneapolis. They'd be huge housing problem. Been there many times. Yeah so I think that that is what is like so pressing about this. Is that when we take cities where people can better themselves against cities being the whole Metro region and kind of locked? Lock people out of him. That is a national problem. Yeah there's a price to be paid for walling off the city's walling off in different ways like we're talking about the close economies of Ted companies these housing problems and all these issues it becomes kind of anti-democratic society that we're living in. You know where it's certainly not. What Tocqueville observed in the nineteenth century about the promise of America? What was so special. That's combat world is almost gone totally and But I think that but the other thing is so much action is happening at this. Local government level. People are so people are so depressed about the political situation right now and at the local government. You do see people trying to solve problems. It's by the way they're going to really saw this housing problem. You're going to need some large federal help. But I don I. That's like a sentence multifaceted. But that's like a sentence like fuck. I hope Congress figures it out next sentence right. There's no story there. And but I think that you see people figuring these problems out for you how to live near each other attack inequality so as I talk about in the Book California. Pass this really forward thinking fair. Housing Act in nineteen sixty three. Yeah let's talk about that William Mumford who a lot of people don't know about this is when I mean by some of the hidden gems in your book. You know hiding in plain sight as you say you know but The RUMFORD ACT. That was passed. Sixty two or sixty three. It was passed in sixty three and sixty three and wait around for it was a you know this is a black man. Who is getting stuff done time? You know and it wasn't easy to do these things you know He's kind of the West Coast. Thurgood Marshall many ways. You know you know Marsha was the lawyer. Who is you know doing that kind of Sopa? Go ahead and talk about that also and I want to set up the antecedent to that which is just as powerful. You know what I'm talking. Oh yeah so. Nineteen sixty three. This Guy William Byron Rumford. Who was a pharmacist in Berkeley? Yes and had he was a west by the way the wheel anywhere near the time for this right but the there are some books about the West Coast experience of Black People. That are so interesting. Ebbs very distinct from the southern experience. Completely it's a whole different. Kinda history in northern southern California. Have kind of interesting so your town of Oakland has its own experience. Only Oakland are the only two like real black centers and Yeah and Burke south birthday but that's kind of contiguous with Oakland so he and so this is an important point so there's actually this whole I mean we could So deep into this by the way I should give a quick plug black past dot. Org has this tremendous resource. It's wikipedia allow for stuff like that but Pity history like black appear. Well no but it's written by series researchers in that website to thank and like it's nice to be like this is a resource done by very serious people and I'm really educating myself and it's awesome Internet Bullshit backpass dot Org. Yes black pass dot org remember. Yeah So the Williams was this guy and he passed this fair housing law. I should say so. There was this Guy Digi Gibson behind him who actually figured out at that time. Cities had district elections and so it was impossible for black political power to to to it was possible to be big enough to show to vote their own representative in but the state borders. We're kind of more contiguous with the Black neighborhood so this guy digi Gibson. Who's this unsung hero of California? Politics is a hugely influential figure. Figured out like okay. We we should go fuck the local government. Let's go to the state because those borders more More represent our neighborhoods and so we can get political representation. That way in Rumford with his first experiment so remember was elected. He passed a ton of great laws. There was a lot to make it illegal to refuse to cover black drivers for insurance companies. A huge deal. And Calvin if you're driving a car right and then there's a Fair Employment Act which had mild controversy then he went to housing and this is like the Inter shows guard rail. This is the radioactive thing and they. There was high drama. They got a pass through the drama book. But it was like the shit past at eleven fifty nine after all these weird legislative maneuvers. Like I mean getting. There is a crow a protest group that had started sleeping in the capital at that. Marlon Brando went there to support. It was this whole big thing and then it was it was kind of the pre Berkeley type of move movement happening passes and then as you know in California we have this initiative system were essentially anybody if they can gather enough signatures can put a law or a proposal for a lot on the ballot. The realtor organization was freaked. The fuck out for all the reasons that I was kind of talking about guys like this is going to destroy our business in. Let me explain that a little bit for people unfamiliar this California. If you don't like a law you don't have to be a legislator you can start an initiative and all you need is a certain percentage of signatures based on votes or something like that The way that was initially Saito but the initiative movement in California. I don't know if that's the same in every state but you can cancel shit. You can create shit. I mean we could do a whole fucking pod. Callan on absolutely San Francisco. Sometimes it's fun right. So they once passed a law passed a whole city laws specifically. You guys did this on the daily show. Yeah specifically to allow one cop to walk his beat triple like an election over that Ed so so it becomes this whole thing anyway. The backlash happens fast and furious. As soon as run for passes fairhousing. There's an initiative to cancel passes in like a landslide and it was fascinating because if you look at like a town like San Leandro which is a white town right next to Oakland. Yeah the the. The voting patterns on either side of that border was crazy. But I think this is a really important moment that foreshadow so much of what. We're living right now so it's so. This is just like a year after George. Wallace down in Alabama is like segregation now segregation tomorrow segregation forever. So that's what the South looks like that that time but California's kind of finding this like a lot of there's a number of books about race in California and they all use the term polite racism California is framing this basically a statewide segregation law this this initiative that would have repealed the RUMFORD act of made it legal for anyone to refuse to sell housing to anyone based on or rent housing to anyone based on race. So it's specifically the right to say you I don't want to rent to your black would have been enshrined in the Constitution truly statewide segregation bill. If you look at the way people talked about that in the election. It's like it's like. Oh this is about freedom. This is about property rights. This is about not telling you what you can do with this land right. And and Reagan of course starts to emerge around this time and then runs against Pat Brown. Just a couple of years after the governor who sorry Pat Brown Gerry. Brown Dad was the governor at the time so Reagan and they had a big fight over this initiative and Reagan starts using all these same kind of property rights terms. I think we see so much of that today. No you're so right. I love this section of the book because you know one of my things that I do is language in language very powerful and the way people thought it. You're absolutely right and this is the thing I hope people take away from. This is it was safe language to cover. You know. I'll call it horrible opinions. You know. And this was not Republicans against Democrats collusion both sides. You know people who had common interest didn't like they're just you know just as many Democrats as Republicans or whoever you know after a while it Kinda. I think went into party but the language that was used to fight these types of things to me is what really hits home to me and you can track that through our politics. Whether it's about guns was about this or that at the language that people use because they're not wrong to death taxes. Yea that's one of my favorites that what is that. Shit that one got me. I mean they're not wrong. That's the thing and bodily the left does it in. It's only two. This is not just a observation. It is from that side you know. Medicare for all kind of an example sounds. It's not like destroyed the current. Yes everyone can have it right like it doesn't sound Yeah we have a whole discussion on this but it is fascinating the takeaway from that for something. That you know should be a no brainer for most people. In the way that it's fun is by making it something you really can't disagree with. You disagree for people who are on the sidelines and not really paying attention. Oh yeah that sounds right. Why would I describe? Should the government be able to tell you can sell your property to? She's fair. Thank you for standard for me. Exactly and so. Yeah and actually you can. I mean so there's an for decades there has been this frame. California is a look at the nation's future and I think part of the history shows that was like totally true again and all these other things were foreshadowed in the estate fights right and I think the frame of this book kind of taking these contemporary local fights and saying this is where we're going wake up. America be fucking terrified when this housing Christ comes. Housing crisis comes to your town right. Don't let it get as bad as this and of course that's why I go to. I try to kind of talk about. Minneapolis and other places in the book spent A. I did spend a lot of time. There cut a lot of the stuff out of the book because it was so the same and it just felt like repetitive but Minneapolis. Just pass a law. That would make it the first major city in America to eliminate single family zoning so that does not mean you can build a condo next to a giant condo next to like a single family home which you can be like a triplex like Kinda like have three units. You could have a split level house with a little grainy flat in the back so it was like a light density a flat out. Tell you or cottage house. There's different names for these things. All of them better than a d you which is clinical accessory dwelling unit but They will tell you. We are fucking terrified of becoming California. And so we're trying to proactively. Pass these laws so we are kind of. You're still a look at the nation's future but it's pretty look right now and so actually. That's that's actually again. One of the optimistic things in this book is that you see so much action in other cities where like bat is a lesson not let this happen so we'll counter? Thanks so much for coming in Golden Gate. Two guys fighting fighting for housing in America is fascinating book too so much great information in it just from a historical perspective but also. I love your emphasis on the local and I I think a lot of Even young people. I was just in in Georgia and a meeting Stacey Abramson. She had a meeting afterwards with some local people on. It's all about local politics and I was just flying while. Just listen to this fantastic. Just the energy. That was in their room because people they care about what's happening in their neighborhoods in that kind of stuff in the way that they want to fight for it. The this is what it's about man. You know you you get these things right. It's not as important. You know the the people in Washington as it is. What's going on right there. And if you duplicate that in different places it can that can make a real difference. I feel you know not only. Can I make a real difference? The opportunity to get together to organize around those thing. Yeah starts to create the coalitions that does change washing completely. Suddenly those simpler voting block. That's right and the and also just more practical today like learn how to do shit exactly learn how to run elections. They learn how to organize their friends and neighbors. They learn how pamphlet like all that like super kind of more brass knuckles. Shishir like one stay organized. Look and by the way you see all the presidential candidates when they come to California and stuff. Yeah they're like. What group do I plug into right? who already knows what they're doing show and so once once things like housing is that becomes the key to changing national politics. Used to work more like that in the past. When you have groups like Tammany Hall you know in Unions Union how powerful and they had a structure to it and people were in neighborhoods giving away free Turkeys. I remember my parents from Chicago. Near elections. Freesheet would start going to you. These places like Maine. You get two people in that kind of stuff. That's the crass example of it but there were machines they were called political machines back then. There were operating at local level to give people you know focused on those issues and stuff. Yeah Yeah Totally I. That's again that's why and also Not Not a plug myself too hard. I also just think there should is funny like there are. There are moments in this book. That will make you cry like this fifteen year. Old Girl having her life destroyed by addiction. But then there's also these cookie. Local characters are showing up to BARF showing up to city council meetings in like leggings and cowboy boots and being. You got to change this shit and it's a wild funny seen again. I keep coming back to a wreck but every time I watch that show. Jesus Christ. This is like not fiction. Yeah it is the The the prophetic show of our Tom. Golden Gate you guys fighting for housing America kind of dirty. Thanks so much. Thank you so much for having me. This is Super Fun.

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Ep 054 - Author - The Operating System of Society with Hannibal Tabu

Get A Grip On Life

1:28:53 hr | 1 year ago

Ep 054 - Author - The Operating System of Society with Hannibal Tabu

"Welcome back to the get. A grip on life podcast on today's show hannibal taboo can be a fun talk before i talked to him. I'm gonna talk to you about starting your own podcast. Podcast are starting creating your own digital media. If you wanna do that go to get a grip studios dot com baby. That's getting ripped. Studios dot com welcome to the get a grip on life podcast hannibal. Thank you for having me get. You know what's interesting. I actually have been into rockford illinois got. I'm so sorry for you rough me and cheap trick or probably the only things that came out of yeah well. You know what's funny about it. I was just traveling around doing sales and i ended up in rockford then. I saw your profile like rockford interesting. I mean how many people would start off saying yeah. I've been to rockford do so what haven't you haven't you done hannibal. I mean this. This is a career here. This is a career man. I try to stay busy. Yes sir i. I've done a wide number of things things a large number of disciplines so i have tried to keep busy because for me all basically the same thing it's about conveying a message then message being <hes> getting a thought from one person to the next and making sure it connects and making sure it's understood in comprehended. That's really what everything i've done in. My career has been about so for me. It's all kind kind of the same thing. It's just you know people see differently. You know it's funny because i look at your your bio here and see so many different things move in lots of the different companies like you know recog- name recognizable companies companies that most people would know i see show business. You know how exciting i'm wondering. Are you that mostly multi-facetted or do you just get bored a little bit hannibal and you wanna try something you wanna try right at your message out in a new medium. Is that what it is. Why not booth there's a there's definitely elements of both in that regard because was one of the things industries changed a lot with both the digital revolution that allow things that has happened so if i said oh well i'm a journalist and this is all element. Do i would be broke now. Oh if i've got this writing thing going on in because i did allow poetry and all i'm gonna do is poetry. Sorry then i'd be broke so i follow the market and i follow my interests and one of my friends has all of my hobbies ended up making me money so you you know it's like i started working in for example poetry you know coming out of college and then all of a sudden. I'm in all these anthologies or start talking about. Oh well well. Maybe we'll start doing combat reviews with some friends and then all of a sudden. I'm getting paid for it and these things are a natural progression. Come from both high quality work and from being ready whether it opportunities presented so that's interesting because that's what an entrepreneur does. I believe so yes sir right right. It's like i. I you gauge in something so there's people out there that are hobbyists and there's nothing wrong with hobbies is that but the problem with hobbies is they take your time in your money and the fulfillment the fulfilment comes from the <hes> the passing of time at something in which you become better at is that fair right would agree that yeah but the professional says okay but i want to get paid yes i. I do have a very i grew up in memphis. I was born in rockford by growth in memphis and there's a very <hes> the hustle metality is not very far for many people there so i grew up with the idea enjoying myself but still making sure that it was going to be taking care of business at the end of the day and that's what i've i've really had to do. I i saw opportunities like oh. I see this happening and you'd need this and i can do this so you may as well just pay me for it and lots of times people will yeah okay that checks out. I think a lot of people want to pay for stuff. You know it's like if you don't pay for something. It has no value by definition. It's also more convenient and this is one of the things that we were apple. Capitalize on this. It was like we could let you figure out how to go to napster and download things things yada yada or you can. Just pay me a dollar for this on that. You want right now. It's like oh. It's only a dollar or i'll pay for that right now. I'm getting and now they've got a multi million million if not multi billion dollar business model built upon that that did not exist a few decades ago for sure and if i if i ask you about how you go about the conversation a lot of people don't know how to ask for money. You know what i'm saying. They don't know how to have those conversations and if somebody's listening to you to this and you're an experienced businessman. How does that that you so you're you're. You're in recognizing a trend. Let's talk about rap pages or america online. You ooh los angeles sentinel lower spinner racks speak the source all these great magazine that you were a journalist for some of which we think are no longer around many any of which are now no longer right. How is it that you know you notice that for example at a magazine wants <music> content. You have a message. How does that conversation starters connections in the business. Everybody knows hannibal taboo or what is it starts with connections deductions. Where is it starts with connection so with for example rapid. I was working as an intern at the los angeles sentiment which is a job. I got out of college and my editor. There was an editor at rampages and she loved my work ethic. She saw that she would give me an osama now would knock it out and it would never be any problem and that sort would've reliability was valuable to her so when she's talking to her friends she molester who was the editor <unk> time was like all these freelancers always disappearing on me. She's like you need. Hannibal hannibal's never disappeared head was always showing up on time. She does like let me give them a try. I come in again. Knock it out of the park boom boom boom so oh it's getting to know the right people in getting to have the right access to things as well but it's also being reliable and being dependable when you show up to do something i am but more importantly for me when i'm starting fresh conversation with somebody. It's about making sure that i propose something to them. That is a win win for both of us uh-huh interesting. If i say for example aspen comics is a perfect example they had all these characters and they had all this legacy and i said well. Hey you know i'm. I'm a fairly smart guy. I have no idea what these characters are about. If you had a single guidebook that explained all the characters to people you can sell that pretty much forever and then people could have jumping on point for your characters that is a good idea here have some money and were interesting so when you when you're when you're having these conversations you're actually putting yourself into the other person's shoes in terms of recognizing igniting a need that they have and it just outlining that you can fill that need yes sir and then when you're done that you behave like a professional absolutely absolutely yes. Sir like that sounds like a pretty easy recipe for success. The recipes easy the making the recipe is now yeah. There's a lot of a lot of sleepless nights my wife please go to bed so yeah. There's a lot of a uphill grind in terms of actually doing the work. Being a professional is a level of effort that unfortunately many people don't elevate themselves yourselves to yes if your choice. It's a choice. It's a choice but it's a craft. It can be developed anybody talent. They say you can't teach talent or you can't teach quickness but what you can't teach. This is a work ethic your learn oh you know if i do this in a repeatable professional clean gene way than i can get the same results. That's almost a scientific approach to it and if you do that then yeah. The red lights at the recipe itself is not very difficult. Just you have to keep pushing it. It's not it's not something where you can. Oh what's the line. There's one of my favorite lines like the sun doesn't take days off. So why am i gonna take a day off yeah. You know what's interesting about that too so i'm five foot six and a half seven five whatever i'm not going to be center in the n._b._a. So true like no matter how hard i try you know i'm not that's never going to happen but if you're realistic in what you're trying to achieve so if somebody takes a look and says you know what a you know i want to be a poet. Guess what you can't sit down the next day and be a poet you you have to do with the craft for a long time. I actually think that <hes> you know if somebody's attracted to that art. There's gonna be some natural talent there. They're gonna and a half but they're going to have to work at it for a long time. A music is another example love. This the overnight super the overnight star was five years in the making you know and you see this all over and over again you know you find out that a musician or whoever actually spent their entire childhood learning different instruments but then it just seemed like they came out of nowhere and we're amazing when you're i wanna talk to you a little bit about some of these large corporations since that you worked for <hes> okay. Were they contract positions. Did you take on a project for them. <hes> different ones are different contract. I know quicken dot com. Tom was like they needed somebody who knew h._t._m._l. To come in and knocked something out that you know either somebody was there before and screwed it up. I don't know if people that screw up things. I i would never get paid but i came in for one day. Thing knocked out never had any problems with and moved on and forgot about. It was rogue gunslinger situation on the other dan when i was at say for instance kaiser permanente that was like a fulltime job i was there. I had benefits that went on company retreats. I did all kinds of shenanigans like that. So what what <hes> what i always did for myself was i made myself available and in a way that was clear i worked with the agency. That's now called awkward. <hes> that's oh i think national company and back when i was with them at first they were called mek temps and web staff because there was we're all new digital stuff ooh fancy the and <hes> they would find people who had as they say a particular set of skills and they would offer them to companies so they would they would be the bad guy and asking for money so i didn't have to i would just show up be amazing and get paid and call today that was both contract contract and employees work. I was happy to do both. I was like sam jackson not very many checks. I've turned down thus far and it seemed to i'm. I'm comfortable in those environments because a lot of times people get those environments meetings and the stress and so forth even the most stressful thing i was that was disney channel which like you know like people will. I literally the one of my coworkers. Every day. He went to lunch and head to martinez is a i've been here for two years and bad next year. It'll be three martini because that's what he had to do to get through every day but in those environments it's just about finding being the vulnerabilities finding. Where's the mead. Where's this happening. What's going on debt needs to happen and that can go well disney channel for example apple. I was on a tuesday morning. The business channel a business <hes> vice president vice-president whole business unit. Call me up on a conference call in front of like eight thousand people nines. He says this is hannibal. Hannibal goes back on tata's redesigned. It'd been stalled for a year even what we gave them a content management system at the last last minute. He didn't even blink and we're still on there was still on that was tuesday thursday. Her boss michael eisner's email six thousand. Y'all got to go worldwide. I was was number eight on friday. My boss is number ten on monday and that had nothing to do with our work. Somehow wow who so as a poet i studied english lit substantially in in university and i've always been interested in poetry. What is the theme of your poetry autry. What i saw my poetry as was sh sh taking the light of the world shining through very specific prison so if you take a prison sanit in front of a flashlight you'll see a different thing than if you said it from black light for example and i was a very specific set of perspectives based upon my upbringing based upon my cultural background based upon details of an idiosyncratic <unk> idiosyncrasies of my own personality and that perspective presents a different way to look at things and my poetry did a lot of that so for example. I remember one of my favorite poems. The opening line was <hes> over the last twenty years. I've had a series of apocalyptic dreams. Some of them went on to become president and and that sort of perspective perspective is not what you would get from say for instance some of my classmates u._s._c. in the poetry program not what you would even get from some of the people who worked with me at the world stage writer's workshop in lamar park. I had various specific blending of influences that creates a specific perspective do you. What is your background ground well. I grew up in memphis as i said i <hes> come from unexciting family my sisters because they work in government the bachelor not to go into details about our dead but <hes> i come from an exciting family. That didn't exactly mesh very well so i was raised by my great aunt and uncle they had grown up in the depression. They had grown up under segregation. They had grown up in significantly hard times that i will ever see and they they conveyed the idea of hard work and of ownership and of getting things done even in the face of overwhelming opposition sure and and that was really you know built into my d._n._a. At a very early age however also built into that was in nineteen seventy seven even my mother in one of the last things we did together before i went with my great aunt knuckle took me to go see star wars in theaters forty times we we're really into it and the possibility of being stuck in some podunk nowhere place and then going off and finding as they say a larger roger world was enormously seductive to me so those twin influences have driven a lot of the things you familiar with langston hughes quite assert is he. The greatest africa african american poet poet. Is he the greatest african american port. That's that's a. That's a tough fight win. I'm doing the swiss sweet sixteen bracket in my head because he was a jazz musician but they take his jazz lurks. I studied his jazz lyrics and they actually take his jazz lyrics and they read it as poetry and then he wrote that poem and excuse me on. I'm not using words that amusing langston where it's the negro speaks of rivers is such a wonderful poem. I couldn't be one of the greatest poems i've ever read in my life and eight. I'm doing well okay. That's a good question. There's not a lot of people that would know. Langston hughes unfortunately if you say see that he's not a household name but certainly one of the greats of of all time how do you so you're you're great aunt and uncle experience the jim crow law absolutely and then in their lifetime they went through the transition of the jim crow to know jim crow what what what what what message would they have to us today. The message that they would have particularly migrant migrant was much. She was a source sources of unconditional love. I hope and positivity for lots of things my neck. He was a very stern man it. It was a very serious man but in his is the differences between his upbringing and the modern day especially because he saw the transition during that's really radical sixties periods in adult was then adult he was reading the newspapers yeah he was in his forties by then thirties late thirties early forties by then <hes> and he would say he was like the hood got put away but that doesn't mean the people changed. I know the the the same people who made the laws that made that happen. We're still in power. Just you know they were like oh. We're nice now. How are you really going to believe that. I'm like no perfect example one of the life lessons he gave me when i was about seven he called me and he said boy yeah. I literally thought my name was boy until like i was almost twelve. He said well come over here and sit on my lap all right. Whatever is what came atlanta. Push me off of the floor. What did you like. Don't trust anybody boy. Even you not even me. I said okay i forgot about week later. He calls me and he says you need to give you allow us come so i was like oh allowance. Iranian push off did not tell you not to trust nobody about ten days later. He calls me like what's this report cardboard. Come over here so in my lab. I'm like i'll stand. He's like now you're learning and that was that was one of the most central lesson i remember taking from so i would say he would. I'm here to speak french but he was a pool shots. Pula meme shows the more things change the more they stay the same and arcnord presidential administration would definitely be testament to his thoughts there. Can i ask you a little bit more about this topic. I'm canadian and her and i've been traveling a lot to the states and there's tempstar. I love united states. I love the u._s. I love the u._s. People but i'll tell as something there's a difference between black people who live in toronto. That's the right word. Some people get mad at me when i say that but it's not uncommon to say that in in in toronto but they're not they're not african americans their of caribbean or african descent okay so they're not they're. Not you know the it's a different culture. That's the better it is actually an. I think that a lot of people in toronto think that the caribbean toronto oh culture is the same as african american culture and i think one of the reasons why kawhi leonard left the toronto raptors and a lot of basketball players. I don't like toronto is because their culture is not present there. Is that a fair statement. It is fair as interesting misnomer because i just i'm writing a project right now. Orlando judah with bob marley's family where we talk a lot about <hes> the what they call the maroons nova scotia the first time sure that a large african <hes> group was brought to new canada and the there was a greater focus on <hes> the programming of especially because because of the larger numbers of african people here there was a focus on programming away from the cultures that had gone before so the things that the things that we were i used to in african cultures that you'll find in jamaica the things that you'll find even in caribbean culture in england and then in paris dabbed onto now and so on so forth dr are much closer to what you would see in an african culture because i was able to visit ghana and i was able to visit nigeria in places like that to <hes> then you would see here because because there's been less effort put into stripping away that cultural underpinning nah if somebody from jamaica comes to the united united states. They're gonna have a very different cultural framework because they're going to have a history of rebellion. They're going to have a history of we stood up against a spanish. We stood up against the english for eighty three years of guerilla warfare when in canada for example when they're like when they tricked the maroons and ship them to nova scotia they immediately leave started rebelling and there were so intent about it and there was not the same kind of societal pressure to purge that sense of them mm-hmm that it was ultimately just easier to look. Would you send you back to sierra leone. It's fine it's fine. That is a drastic difference in what happened happen here. <hes> you will see if you've seen <hes> films like twelve years a slave labor or <hes> roots the specific things that were done to africans in the united states to deprogrammed dehumanize and and change the way that they think about things more more recent scientists. We talked about the inheritance harrisons of bessemer thing that can even be passed down through d._n._a. Even if you didn't experience it that you can see the trauma that happened generations back to people in people's d._n._a. Markers now so yeah it is it is a difference for me. I know what am i friends. Frank williams was editor at the source he lived in toronto for a number years loved it in toronto to freaking cold for him though and he's york so for me you know that's that's i had a conversation that a comic con where <hes> this one friend of mine says you're too smart to live in america. You need to come live in candidate. Go college. Free is going to be medicine. I'm like all right. I i hear your arguments and they're valid arguments but was temperature at your house on december twelfth churn light. It was like five sixty. I'm like it was seventy. One degrees the house. I'm not going anywhere whether matters men for sure it definitely is a factor people in minnesota have the same issue. It's freezing minnesota right my family's all oh from detroit and wisconsin so i've had my share of snow for my life. Does your poetry reflect any of the struggle the ongoing struggle of the civil rights movement today an hour making progress on that front or are we are we don't wanna sense becoming doing more segregated and waste but using facebook and and these digital tools again i would say why not both we my my poetry. Autry definitely reflects the struggle for freedom for self-determination for all people to be able to play on a level field field. There's no significant advantage that i'm seeking over anybody. Else's no <hes> there's no. I'm not looking for something. I don't feel visit owed or what have you but in that we have a polarized greatly as society both due to influences from within from what else but when you have lobbyists like the coke brothers who've spent millions of dollars making sure that education gets weakened in kansas and oklahoma and so and so for that changes the electorate that changes the people who are elected that for james the laws <hes> likewise when you see the evidence of the russian bought farms who spend all day trying to influence american opinion through social media which is a weaponising of information which is brand new to the century that we've never seen anything keeping like that for these sorts of goes way beyond reverse propaganda like the reverse propaganda that we had in the sixties and seventies with russia and that now it's sophisticated. It's indistinguishable from news. In a way or whatever it is it is it isn't it really is because it's is changing the way people think very much so and that sort of with the advent of social media which does something through the dopamine receptors in our heads but you got a notification check the notification. There's lou good feeling checking the middle. Forget social media has that effect on people at least according to the research avenue able to see and in doing so if people get into these echo chambers because all algorithms will guide you towards people who think like you think then and that will limit your ability to see other perspectives to experience the two thousand ten census said that more than sixty percent of the white people in the united states have no interaction with a person of color in average week. Yes it's incredible how segregated it is the united states it really is. I was in durham carolina durham north carolina or cellular in durham north carolina and where i was at the hotel i mean there was there was some i'm african americans that work there and we're going there and all that but every single restaurant or club we went to was like ninety nine percent white people people okay and canadian and from toronto so we don't have this kind of like toronto's very mixed everywhere. You go especially downtown. There's people from everywhere in the world asian middle eastern african american latino everything everyone just mix mixed much more mixed. Everyone makes it but it's much more mixed. I want around this corner. We walk down the street and we were and there was this nightclub. Let's go into that nightclub. Walk up to the front door. There's a bouncer at the front door. Happens is to be an african american guy. That's not on dec. At any club right you know big guy and i are. He's covering the bar. I'm like hey man. We're going to go in. It's me and my friend. He's also white boy sure you wanna go in there. I'm like yeah. It's an open. He's like he had like. I'm not going to try to imitate his accent but he had a real anyway so he said well okay. Go in. We paid our ten dollars. We walk in and this has never happened to me before. Okay first time this ever happened to me but i'm sure it happened to african-americans all the time i walked into a room and there was probably probably three hundred black people and no white people and it was like for the first time in my life life. I was like whoa. I've never experienced this before right and nobody really cared we weren't noticed or they didn't really give scrapped partying. They're having fun. They're dancing her. So what do you do when you get in that situation. My buddy looks is what are you gonna do. We gotta have a beer man. We can't walk out of here. This is just too weird to walking right eight to walk out so we went in. We ended up talking to some people we ended up having a great time and everything else but we might have been the only white people to go into that bar true. That's that's crazy to me more interesting to me because i've seen this sort of thing happened happen. In my neighborhood growing up in memphis we would every once in a while. You see like some some white people come through and they lost. They would know where they were going and my father would go well. He would say he'd have his triple maps that he loved to carry and he would show him. Here's where you are and here's where you need to go and here's what's it gonna run into and here's what you'll see here and they would go off on their way anyone think anything of it and he would come back and it was a if you're in a white neighborhood don't ever do that. You'll get killed. A black neighborhoods not the same and he's like no if i went into a white neighborhood never do that never ever came because the exact exact same thing would more likely and there was a case in in michigan actually where those motorists who had been injured in a car wreck and went to knock oughta door the door open. The guy who was african american knocked on the door white guy opened the door shot him with a shotgun like didn't even look they interact from mm-hmm. That unfortunately is not even a strange story to me. That's not even like the first time i've heard a story like that. It's like it's like it's like it's like people are not not individual human beings or something very much so there is a this is your black your white and it's like yeah. That's what you are. You're you're not hannibal taboo. You're black. That's what is and that's that's built into a lot of what has happened. In the american erkin character in the american <hes> will the united states. I don't wanna say american because there's a lot more american than the united states but the character of of a lot of people in this country because it's become so normal so regular the idea of you know if i'm walking down the street that i'm gonna see persons get clutched clutched in and i must say car doors locked and i'm like i would agree from u._s._c. I've been published. I'm not gonna steal your personally yeah. I guess so but you know i know this is this is the way the software is set up and it is just software programming and unless there's a radical reinstalling the operating system. Is the software running we. I actually story similar to that. When you told i was in over town town i wasn't i was in north miami beach and we were again. He's sales rep traveling salesman but anyway. That's a whole other conversation but we ended up getting lost and we ended up in over town miami. I don't know if you know that okay. I don't know specifically so it's like. It's like a ghetto in miami innings it the the size of it was blew my mind away. It was just blocked mile l. After mile of very poor area like you're like no grocery stores stores plaza with big parking lot where everyone goes and you buy your stuff. It was just a it was like in an urban wasteland ghouls like we were lost. Were driving. We're trying to find our way out of there. It just went on for ever how enormous this depressed area was in comparison and then so then we're driving and the and the and this is interesting. I'm gonna make this point team and you see what you think think of this. We're driving along and all of a sudden what the cop comes behind us and an african american police officer gets out of his car walks up to our car roll down the window. I'm like i'll where we speeding officer. You know we're we're canadians. We don't have we don't have an an antagonistic relationship with the police or you understand what i mean. I'm used to the my experience of police is always friendly and they're always giving me tickets for speeding here you son to slow down our listen going too fast. It's a one hundred sixty mph area. You were doing eighty five in the sixties under there you go through actions with police are never like suspicious or criminal or anything like that and so he goes like this. He's like what the hell you doing here. <hes> we're loss or yeah. You need to get the hell out of here now before. It gets yeah my okay so he's like hey. You're gonna go over there. You see that that road. You're gonna make a left. There's going to be an onramp on your right and when you get on that highway you're gonna dry for whatever and get out of here. This is not a safe place and he was concerned for our safety yup because we were white yes. That's you understand what i wasn't mean to us or racist or anything like that. He would just like you know. I don't want to be picking up your body off somewhere here later on or something like that won't do the paperwork. Yeah there you go. Isn't that dangerous like is it really. Are those areas really that well. Here's the thing i know so car. Cell chicago's basically a war zone. That's a different one but for i mean my my my brother-in-law d._j.'s all the time and it's interesting because my sister's black my brother-in-law's wyden he's like one of the best known urgent urban d._j.'s in the area and ears no problems there but <hes> there can be <hes> there can be a situational accidental things that happened for example apple i went to u._s._c. and the neighborhood around u._s._c. is not so great and it was a couple of asian students. Were sitting in a brand new b._m._w. With the the door open playing really loud music waiting for their friends to come out of the house at three o'clock in the morning now when i heard the start of this i'm like this is not going to end well right right and subsequently did not because somebody came allow who lived in neighborhood in liked the music playing like the attitude they were like yea yea and didn't show what probably seemed to the person who lived there like the right amount of respect and they're both dead now now was was that necessary no of course not but when you put a lot of firearms willy nilly around places they tend to be used most if they will work for your safety one like. I said he definitely did not what do the paperwork from. You guys getting merger second. He figured very quickly that you two were either a looking for drugs or be looking for prostitutes. You were not there for some illicit purpose sure so he was like the easiest thing for me to do is get these guys the heck out of my jurisdictions dixon's. I can deal with whatever actual problems. I'm gonna have to deal with chore. Yes and that's a fairly i mean it's not an unfair perspective to have you know if you said for example oh we're down here looking for this amazing soul food restaurant that we were told by his way but yeah but that's not what you say you so you like your goal is to be safe and i'm gonna get you to safety because that's less paperwork for me. He goes to record this. I'm gonna have to move all my life. Yeah i gotta go. I gotta get home to my wife later on. I'm not dealing with overtime with u._2. Lost connects hearing. Don't get the hell out of your boy so let me ask you just on on this path. Maybe <hes> maybe <hes> one more question about this and then onto some of your fiction. Maybe we'll get lost in it again you talking about an operating system. That's an interesting interesting. Yes that's an interesting way to or an interesting similar or metaphor for the zeitgeist of human interactions or the or the paradyne's in which we view the world right when you have. You thought much about this operating system. Have you written about it. Is it something that your is it your p._s. Assist aunts. You're going to come out and say this is what we need to they. Do tell me a little bit about that operating system. If it's something that you've thought about a lot it is something. I've thought about quite a bit. There's and this will actually segue into the renting. <hes> how that <hes> there is a there has been at least according to meyer admittedly limited studies a history a cultural literal shift towards imperialism towards colonialism towards the destruction of things for profit towards <hes> <hes> the not the needs of the few be there kleptocracy or what have you <hes> outweighing the needs of the mini which is virtually everybody else and that has are reinforced and re re intrinsic self in lots of things the reason why for example a lot of popular culture's focused around you know oh scarface okay so the bad guys is like the bad guys win and they don't face consequences and we see that all the time so these are fairly logical things happen this factored into my own work <hes> <hes> in a set of books that i'm loosely calling the context which have written two novels in it so far where the basic idea is that humanity humanity is essentially because i'm sorry that phrase it. I said oh carbon based life is a sexually transmitted disease and is not necessarily a cure but it can be controlled that win. Humanities spreads out throughout the galaxy guys like ooh humanity cooties so ooh. That's an interesting way to look at it. Actually that's that's an interesting. That's really interesting that to say you know what what's the difference catrine like. Every life form is sense interacts with its environment in a way to make its environment more conducive like immediately conducive to its current needs right and like one of the signs of intelligence wants is to be able to one of the things that makes us conscious and humidity navias the spark of god or whatever whatever belief system you have is that us humans have the ability ability to contemplate the future right. We have the ability to look down the road if we're taught and raised right look down the road and worry about a future hannibal because that's gonna be one day. I use it for as a lot. That's funny future. Hannibal is you. You just not dairying right. So how do you wanna treat that guy. Do you want him to exercise on a regular basis and get enough sleep and be healthy or do you want him to have cirrhosis of the liver and it'd be dying of lung cancer because he smoked all the way up to that right so it was like that we have the ability conceptualize and it's interesting to consider like human life as a virus paris because if we did go to other chris like what we would call pristine earth's that do us there. It would be like a disease on that place. If you were just depends on how you look at the perspective right and you could actually look at human. It's like the movement of human peoples around the world as an infection in a way especially when you see the difference between a culture that would move into place and then move live in harmony with the environment or cultural they would move in and place and build a starbucks know bulldoze down the one of my favorite stories <hes> there's actors jennifer lawrence was in hawaii filming something and she had an itch and she started rubbing rock formation and they're like ma'am. This is a sacred sacred place for the people here. This is and she's like oh really and starts rubbing but on it and laughing. That's the opposite of looking at the future. That's that's a very short-sighted perspective. That has become all too common in in the as you say zeitgeist in the operating system. It's jillian colonel well now so it's possible do software patches and you may be oh. Let me install this different app to try to work around. We're going to work around. You know. Yes still the the opera. The operating system remains what it is. Western culture remains the way it has been crafted since before the roman empire. No i think i think it's i think it's changed into something thing. I think it's changed and i mean we can set. There's all sorts of issues in order to make this argument going to have to set aside issues like civil rights and that's a huge issue but i'm going to end slavery every in other treatment of of first nations in canada and we're just going to set those issues aside but if we say that that i think what our culture has evolved to now is the creation of individual egotistical narcissists and so when you encounter an egotistical narcissist like like a donald trump would be a perfect example would come of an overt art egotists now whether or not you agree with his policies or you're a republican or democrat. I have no idea okay do not agree okay so but regardless all that what that's what he is whether you like him or not and what happ what's happening in the united states is when you encounter someone who's in our assistant what happens is you only have two options with them. You either validate their egotistical narcissism or you go into conflict with them. There's no nuance in between right right so you either you validate so half of america is in this weird eagle validation with donald trump and half of america's in conflict with donald trump and true on both sides is i think both sides not you who particularly but the people that are refusing to engage in political compromise the people that are name calling and and excluding and and refusing to come to the table to discuss import duties on carrots. Whatever like some basic issue. The united states is facing acing the country are both deeply egotistical and i think that's what our society with facebook and computers and pop culture and the kardashians and all these rubbing your butt on iraq because you're just good oh it's sacred. I'm going to work on it. You know that is such disgusting. Portrayal are so disgusting example of somebody's ego completely out out of control. It's like your ego. It's crazy to do that like if somebody tells you something sacred you immediately should respect it. You don't have to care you. Don't have to care whether about the meaning of it. You have to get into the rock. You have to respect it. Come on that's ridiculous delivery legally and when you when you add back into things that you took out when you add in the murder in the in the slavery and the bloodshed and all that blah blah blah then you look get a software that is is corrupt at the root software that has flaws that go back into the legacy code that just just a newer versions but if you look into the older version of the code. Oh wait no this this. These flaws have been here for a while. We haven't program these out. We haven't done anything to program these things out doc and that can well like it creates it creates not only these two sides ego validation and the one struggling really against it but there is a another perspective the likes of which you'll get a i remember columnist. Dr daniel said the goal was to become ungovernable to step so far outside the system that its effects. Were irrelevant to you. That goal is hindered by the conflict seeking nature nature of the current administration. They're sorts of things so for example my kids. I've got two kids. They're nine fifteen right and one of the things things that is being affected by say friends. Betsy devos is in the department of education is changes to how their education is going to be happening changes the how their education of the children around them are going to be receiving and that that affects their life in a way that they may want to be like look. I don't know what y'all crazy people doing. That'll be part of it but this starts to draw people into a fight where they didn't even wanna fight yeah. It's that polarization creates conflict. We're conflict did not exist and that and over issues that are not even something how could it be polarized over particular issue like people if you have something like education and two people care about children and they sit down at a table they can cut a deal dude if they both care or no but if they're not captured by special interest groups and what i want to ask you something jumped up at me just in while while we're talking in and so i've read a lot about chattel slavery okay well. There's a when people say everyone's descended from slaves. There's a difference between the type of slavery that brazil and america and jamaica and in haiti that happened happened and then what happened to slaves in the roman empire or if you were if you were roman empire saved more like it's like an indentured servitude irs and if they were brutal to in some way some of them are treated very brutally but it wasn't the same you were talking about this idea and the idea was that you take people from one continent you completely dehumanize them in rob them of all their cultural affinities all their archetypes all their stories stories all their idea of greatness you buffalo soldier them into a foreign land in a way and treat them like no different than you treat your livestock you sell them on platforms and bid on them as if they are i as assets as assets and this ends and then the jim crow law comes in and then are you saying that like the the operating system <hes> is still recovering or still recovering from these this chattel slavery in the those great video that went around on facebook talked about the difference between safer to virtually identical individuals one black kid named jamal who lives in one maybe over town or whatever and one it was a white kid name. I think dave was likely than woodland hills or whatever and let's say that they both have the dental accu identical test scores identical everything but what if jamal is in a crappy school that has a crappy library and crappy resources. He's gonna have a harder time applying for things then say dave would if jamal mall can't afford the fee can't afford the fees for applications for like the u._s. Fee was athlete like when i applied. It was like forty dollars but i got a fee waiver because my school school was good enough that i knew about fee waivers. Most of my friends who went to other schools will like what's a fee waiver and they ended up at community colleges. That's a difference in what happened to them. Different access to the difference in opportunity and when you factor in that whole software that spent all these years saying that these people were people like me were assets spent <music> all these years beyond that legally saying that they were second classes that they were not as good that they were taken and that they were not held in in high regard is a different sort of people based upon the color of their skin and then all of a sudden okay just kidding. I guess you guys are equal but didn't take take away any of the negative effects of all of that didn't give them any of the advantages of you know inherited wealth of inherited culture of inherited ability to see themselves in a good light that another perfect land rapper named rasa land says the diameter of your knowledge is the conference of iraq. So of all you know is over town then you're not going very far from over to most of the people i went to school with and memphis are still in memphis. Is there in crappy jobs doing crappy things in memphis because they didn't they saw star wars. Oh that's a cute movie. I need to go back in. You know figure out what we're gonna. What do i need to get the heck out of here. I need something else out. You know what's funny is that i lived in belfast northern ireland for a year and let's just you know what man it was like. I kind of blended in there. I was in noticed very often because i have that heritage. She's in me of those people's. I just kind of blended win but there's protestants and catholics like in terms of walking down the street nobody noticed me dude and there's protestants and catholics and then there's protestant stayed in catholic areas right now. This is interesting east. People are ethnically the same people <hes>. There's no racial differences. I mean maybe zero one descends from scotland in the they're all from scotland and ireland anyway so whatever they all have a shared ethnic heritage the differences religion okay so once protestant ones catholic. They're not even practicing. I mean when i lived in belfast when i lived in belfast nineteen ninety six ninety seven. I felt like it was a doctor. Dr seuss book about the south going zax in the north going zax like i talked to these people and it'd be like what the hell are you talking so you hate catholic. What are you talking about like your. This is like a dart like belfast is like a a a human example of doctors use story. The you know the <hes> <hes> the sneakers with s on there on the beaches. I the star bellied switches. I am i am dar's stars upon ours and all this. We have star belly star arbelaez teaches. It's like we make up these labels. It's a perfect example. You know what i told all those people. I said you know what you need to do. You need to get the hell out of belfast buddy and go somewhere and realize that nobody cares about this. Bullshit dr seuss crap. You guys are in running around star belly snatches ship. You know what's crazy. No it's completely belfast completely crazy now but in america you you have these visible differences okay and it's in canada to there's racism in canada to canada is not a utopian a a place of equality. I certainly think it's a lot more integrated in better particularly the city of toronto but you know you have these visible differences are we able are ase america able and are we in the west. Are we able to get over what we see in a sense and the labels that have been put into was and the messages that have been put into us. I believe as warren ellis wrote that the future is inherently a good thing and and that the possibility is absolutely. They're absolutely now whether the motivation is there. That's a completely different store. It is totally possible possible for people to change if they want to. Anybody can do can do most of the things they want to do if they're willing to put the work in fort putting that work in fort is is not a common desire it is not and while that possibility exists there is a greater societal reward in not doing that that the tribalisation of the united states into red states and blue states idea of some of them being read given the struggles of the nineteen eighties was ronald reagan fight against the soviets is very funny to me <hes> but that tribalisation is is not only rewarded did but is is is reinforced by you know the arguing heads on the television and you know the gerrymandering of your district so you you're all together so we're gonna make you all together so you vote for this way and that that will make sure that you've got these people in carson's also for all of this is is a city like i said it's all in the operating system. It's a software flaw and you know either a you're going to have to okay. Oculus wipe the drive and start from scratch in a way which is an enormous amount of work. Are you calling. Are you calling for a new republic. I believe in many ways. I'm calling for a new species because this is not looking really you know when i see the there's a story that came out of florida. That's originally where woman was shoplifting and she was running. She was caught and she started running from the security guards or whatever and research into her pants and pulled out <unk> actual feces deflategate them that was already there that was already in her pants and apparently part of her strategy. I'm like yep humanity humanity. It is not working out. I don't know about it was also will may decide to call today. I don't know i. I thought you said they put the future is inherently positive or in fairly good thing. The future is but the people here the people here okay so you know what's interesting. You said that humans will change. I actually have a big engine wouldn't they can change people will change when the benefits of change are completely obvious obvious and when the pain of staying the same exceeds the pain of change affluent so the benefits need to be obvious and also the pain of staying the same needs to still be more so if the pain is not more benefits are obvious that that doesn't mean people will change you need counteracting force of the pain of staying the same and i mean that's the polarity that's dr martin luther king versus malcolm x. right those they're like. They're like two sides of the same coin. You can't have one without the other. You can't have adolf hitler without winston churchill. They're like arch nanometer there representing the polarity of the of the of the of the human species. Are you saying that the benefits of change for white americans aren't obvious enough and that the pain is in enough for what is it that you're saying why aren't people up. I'm absolutely both of those. Things thinks that and this is interesting. When once i i saw more once i got to travel internationally overseas that the dichotomy thought patterns of the west yes the either or structure of most of our binary kind of thinking is alien to literally billions of people around the world that they have more of a both and and situation and things like we don't have to divide we can see both of these things amazon we can contain multitudes and this the first thing this dichotomy thought pattern this i apple positional system that works from our legal system to our cable news debates to you know even you know the struggles of what what do you mean the whole could be superman fly those sorts of things. These are all very conflict base. They're based in conflict which comes comes from a different cultural paradigm because from a cultural paradigm of what the west and like i said at least since the roman empire as created about conquest what about the the right of might about swords over a reason in many ways and that's unfortunate so yeah absolutely the pain is nowhere. We're near bad enough. You know if we can if this epstein guy could get through all those you know he missed some thirty four sex offender. Check ins and <hes> you know we're. We're busy with stop and frisk. We're the new york police department and that's new york the bluest of blue sure if that's that then yeah the pain is nowhere near bad enough and the benefits of definitely not clear now yeah. It's interesting you want. It's interesting that you know <hes> what martin luther king did and what change makers do regardless as to where they are whether it's a northern ireland or south africa or anywhere gandhi in india is there seems to be the introduction of change through pain what what they did it in a way that was peaceful. You know like those people took the peaceful path right. I mean they but i mean they tried to block the guy's house dr martin luther k. Somebody tried to blow up his multiple times and he was assassinated and he was assassinated. Where i grew up yeah i mean the redeemer is he who has died in his reborn but i mean like you think about. He knew that too. He knew that they would probably try to kill him. Dude that's christ ice like man. That's what christ did that's reality craze and it's a remarkable. It's more heroic than ever be and i will definitely admit at that but you know i look at statistically the examples of history where change happened much more like basketball day. They're much more like well. We see with the cake and addresses in. We're just gonna murder everybody. That's for sure that was good. That was a time when they're like yeah. This operating system is has gone. It's interesting. I asked you if you think you want a new republic because i was in france in june long story there but there was have you heard of these joel all the yellow vests. It's like france a movement in okay so it's like a visor in december. I remembered member so the we were in bordeaux and the hotel the it was expensive hotel. We were staying at we're like this is really cheap or whatever it turns out that there was a jila joan protests scheduled for you know that the day that we were checking in and <hes> what was interesting was that i didn't know this but for months before four it the julie's y'all had trashed the lobby of that hotel. Now i'm from toronto. We've had one protests when the g. twenty was in that got a little out of hand but mostly charles received peaceful place the protest. They sit around and hang out. They hold signs. They don't don't smash anything. You know what i mean. It's pretty it's pretty cool and you'll have a protest of whatever be mixed crowd or this crowd or whatever it usually things are pretty peaceful anyway so these guys started marching and there was literally french military in front of our hotel with salt rifles okay anyways i jumped out first thing i do is i gotta talk to to one of these cats so i run out. You know you already know me. I like to talk right. I'm like hey you speak english normal. Hey man you speak english. Finally on this guy speaks english and so france right now. He's told me in the fifth republic so it's been refounded five times since the french revolution and he said we want a new republic i said what are you gonna hurt i that what do you mean by that because we want to take down all of the institutions and everything the thing that runs everything and we want to reform it under something different but that's very very dangerous man. You saw what happened in the french revolution right like this is down all those institutions that the things that we've built our america upon you gonna take them all down and reform them kenny anyone even handle this mad. I would look at that and say christopher de andrea mitchell who would handle it. Mike brown would handle it is forward. Handle it. Look you know that is the danger already. You know plenty of people dying already and ah there's a line one of my friends was from south africa and he said <hes> after the changeover in apartheid <hes> people were asking uh-huh. Is it so different. He was like it didn't matter to me in a township whether or not the boot in my neck had a blackfoot inside or white foods that there was a boot on my neck so nope under those circumstances whatever you know if you're telling me that there's danger to the system changing dangerous system staying away it is because because you know there was a a seventeen year old girl killed on the ninety one freeway sunday night. You know by by police for you having an accident. She was getting out of her car and they thought they saw handguns. They shot her. She's seven america has way too many guns dude. I just okay so and stay the difference between candidate america. I'll summit for u k canada. Everyone has the right to healthcare in america. Everybody has the right to own guns checks out right candidate. You have the right to health care and you have to have a license to own a gun in in america. You have the right to have a gun but you have the opportunity to get healthcare. If you have enough money that's that's different soon at six out but i mean how come america i'm not talking. I know the right to bear arms is really against the government. It's not against each other. It's like this going back to the founding fathers and all all sort of stuff but it's just so obvious that people are shooting each other so much of the united states like police shooting people. I mean there was a guy yes. There was a guy who got in a van to three summers ago and drove down a toronto street. Killing women running over women in this van was horrible incident. The cops didn't shoot him a restaurant in the united states that is dead for sure but will oh it depends there was a story in texas about a biker gang that was doing some rowdy stuff and the police were called like four or five police cars were called out to deal with it and the bikers started getting into a fight with the cops and to the bikers guns and shot at the cops but all of them were captured alive there was the police did that fire harassing in texas which is the shooting is. The shooting is possible of american states. However conversely in almost the same county sandra bland was jailed and suspiciously died in her cell and no investigation happy sure whatever those are operating system problems and why you're here but you'll hear about a guy in the states in that ferguson missouri whatever ever oh yeah the cops the cops shot him out of self defense fourteen times like what so loaded yeah. You unloaded your pistol into his back out of self defense. That's that's currently work in the words of john. Cougar mellencamp eight that america for you and me in america is something to see baby. Yeah i mean i think it's and there's lots of wonderful things about america and america's a great force for good in the world and has lots of positive things about it but that the gun stuff is just seems to be like something that you guys gotta get a grip on and control there are challenges and and if as you say a new public would do the trick then i'm all for it. <hes> tell me about some of your books the our did you go straight these or are these. He's published under hannibal taboo of done everything under my name well. Hey on no no. I do know that didn't actually come out so yeah. Everything's money okay okay so the crown ascension and fairway and then far far away sorry i'm reading quickly and the rogue nation. What are what are these fiction books and one of the about yeah these those three books in particular are about this fictional continuity of called the context where it starts in remember. The crowd starts at eight hundred five hundred years ago and goes the final book in the series. Whenever i finished writing it is supposed to be one hundred fifty thousand years in the future and it's an all take on the development of human can and their expansion in the stars which has a lot of magical realism woven into it which has has a lot of traditional beliefs of indigenous peoples from around the world woven into it and has as i said just a different perspective on that that you that's a lot of times you wouldn't see in science fiction or speculative fiction and in doing so it's got one central character whose character who was born as an immortal she just won't die you know and she's a central figure through a lot of this story and plays through a lot of it and watching watching her development and coming into understanding of why she liked this way. Why did she have wh what is her goal. What is our purpose is one of the through lines of the books that that my wife is always like stop talking about what's going to happen. I'm sorry but i that is is a large part of what's happening so with the crowd engine it's an introduction of her and her story and what happens with her because while she's immortal she's basically to just a little bit durable and strong anybody who she falls in love with they can fly their emo- measurably strong their immune to any form of terrestrial damage there you you know her. Love literally can make them superhuman as long as she's loved him. She's not all go and the development of the story and some of her own business from her time in ancient egypt is a lot of focus that i saw far away changes the scene to it's a science fiction. <hes> a prison novel set in the world's most secure prison and the only problem with it is a person who was born in bread revolutionary who who spent his entire life trying to get in there and what he's planning to do once he gets in there <hes> so that's a really kind of a potboiler and it just it just keeps turning turning up the heat turning up the heat deal but then rogue nation is a science fiction political thrillers set in rwanda that i had to do a lottery search for that. I started out with the idea of. I wanted to make this really central galvanizing character who was a a little bit doctor doom a little bit. I mean a little bit kingpin for marvel comics and this character is just like he's a force of nature and when he just moves through things he just he kept stopped and it came from a i was reading the book called wildcats three point. Oh from <hes> while storm which said what would happen if there was a corporation that was a superhero so i decided to take that step further and said what would happen. If there was a country that was a super villain and that's the nation nation nature of that book and it's so much fun. It's so much fun and i've been sitting on the manuscript for that one now because i did the pre the preview chapter of of it in was it far away preview chapter in far away to tease it and i've been sitting on the management forever and my wife like you gotta finish this you gotta fish fish so my goal is hopefully hopefully to get it out in early twenty twenty that is my my goal to hopefully have that last. Was that last book in the series it's the third book in the series of six but to hopefully get it out in twenty twenty and then george martin wholesaling and never finished a series. You're are these stories going on in your head like. Are you all right so you'd be sitting there like you know driving along and you'll be thinking about the story of the the girl and how oh she's interacting in ancient egypt. How do you decide which stories go in the book in which ones don't because i'm sure there's just things going in your head or am i wrong about all all the stories no no. You're you're totally right. My whole life is like stories inside my head trying to push the way out of there with with this one. One of the best keys that i have is outlining so there is a timeline document that i keep on my f- it's synchronizes foam can do through my tablet and so on and so forth so wherever i am i gonna cracking open and this timeline document covers every important date in that entire one hundred fifty thousand plus your thing and every time i the matt scott going on and then we're getting ready to put something together for example laugh a rogue nation is something that set. I'm trying to not spoil that needed to tell the story in order to establish something that will happen in another story so you're interrupting something. Yes very very much so i needed to refer to something in far away that has something to do with something that happened in rogue nation and and i'd set something up in started the sequel to the crown which is the crowd rise and fall which also was relevant to stuff that happened in far away ah road nation but i need for new purposes to be able to have these things together which is why the timeline is so important south screw things up <hes> so when i look at the time i'm like okay. I need to pull this out. Because this part of the story this part of the short story despite is a novel this part of this and then i'll get to going on those <hes> when i'm not working on work for her which is eaten up a lot more my time recently <hes>. Didn't you never met a check. You didn't like right whenever apart sam jackson did it. Did it clear that we good <hes> so yeah but these ideas are constantly running my head and my my wife she like. Are you ever really here. I'm like no. I'm here with you. She's like are you for real no so i i have a constant near the problem with me because i do so many things with reviewing comics and everything else. I'm not only running all mass stories. I'm wearing the star wars continuity in the marvel continuity when the dc continuity. I'm really three or four of the things stranger things and those are constantly running in my head keeping track of things and in on just the ones amount i'm like are these i gotta make new ideas. He's got have more style happy and that's without the new ideas the pop up just out of nowhere you know they'd like oh. This is just a piece of flash fixing. This is literally just five hundred words. I'll i'll never think about it again and it's just this constant you know. I never worry about people stealing my ideas because i've got lots more never forever yeah. You know what you know. What's interesting. You don't want to give away the plot or spoil your book but in a sense like there's no talkers block there's writer's block but there's no talkers block. You know you sit down and have a conversation with share someone so your ideas with someone you trust and maybe you keep a couple of trade secrets up your sleeve when you don't tell everybody everything but you gotta be bouncing ideas off people and that's why i do this show because i really love to meet people like you and bounce ideas aw listen to their for sure. It's been an honor and bounce nino. You know get the feel for their craft like nobody can write rogue nation like that's your book but what what you've laid out he's such a wonderful artistic structure structure then for you know a lot of people have these stories going in their head and they want to find a way to let them out and it's like i was listening to the time time-line. That's exactly what you need because there's nothing better than when my daughter when i was a kid reading these books or even as i don't. I don't read many books now. Listen audible books looks but there's nothing better than when i was reading c._s. Lewis or lord of the rings series and a character that i met earlier in the book reappears. There's and you're like. I know that guy and you kind of feeling yeah. It's like wonderful man and when lego last us appears in yes in what's the one with from here a back again <hes> the guy's name there the around frodo baggins bill. The bill bag is one and you're like my kids all that's him from that. I'm like yeah yeah they appear but you're supposed to read that one i but anyway doesn't matter her but yeah okay and these these characters reappear and you feel like you're seeing an old friend again in your dreams or something you know. It's like oh like alaska's back. It's just the one but there's all these books and people you know they really like like the dopamine reaction you get from phasing in which is instant and tiny and small and meaningless and probably a trick played on you to get your eyeballs looking at an advertisement and you know your dopamine rush you get from being reintroduced to the old love of your characters life from each in egypt who got resurrected because whatever whatever later you know what i'm saying like whatever creed it's like oh i remember that guy and you feel like you're meeting a friend again and that's why fiction can be so wonderful that way no for for the reader and there's like almost like a conspiracy between the reader and the author on this and the author is giving the reader what they want right which is the entwining of these arc tipple characters over a period of time in the time line is so useful for people hannibal. You have that feeling it in nassau. Sorry it's it's great. There's no creator in the modern era who's been more profitable with this and kevin kevin knows this inside now. He's like oh you like four. Oh let me show you went door is going to pop up again. Check this. Oh no no no you like like panther. Check this out. Here's what black panthers going to do next yeah and the skill and the patients because literally we know one in entertainment has ever had that kind of patients on that kind of scale before <hes> to weave a story into little chapters through decades. Okay you billions of dollars. Worth of business is unprecedented but it's really he's literally just doing comic books on onscreen as literally. What kind of books do the magic of continuity is what you're talking about win. Legless pops up. That's continuity yes because you know will know he wrote an entire elvis. Language token created whole frigging crazy so he could yeah exactly just so he could build the underpinnings for this thing and you need to know every word and not only in language but also been in an nelson bad to exactly as he was so thorough about it because he was a linguist by trade i and creating this modern myth means that you have to be able to wave things back in oh okay i know in in norse myth here's where loki comes to take out balder but here's where it comes back to do this thing with the frost giants and helped so so there's a lot of game of thrones does that too as well game of thrones dame guinevere good too. That's a lot. I love what happened on the show. A lot of people are very polarized by that for some reason but that's because they care. That's really care the actually medicare ebtekar yeah. It's like. I'll tell you i bet you if you put those f._m. Awry receptors on people's heads while they're watching some of these really good shows. I bet you they experienced against legitimate remorse and grief when one of the characters in the show dies. I bet you real maybe not as real but it is real. They're they're are invested. Men emotionally invested in those programs for sure. Absolutely oh those books you know. I love what you just said. I love the way we were talking so deeply about the the writing process and then you brought it back to money love it. We are we. Are you know i love it. The sky makes money not to say i mean because the quality of the work stands to because i mean you can say oh well you know batman versus superman obama four hundred million dollars but y y i mean you're the quality of the work. The fact that you know i went to go see black panther in theaters four times the fourth time i'm still saying grandmothers bringing their families and church groups coming in and you know that's that's unproven. That's only because the quality of the work if you didn't can have iran kugler if you didn't have a target which the guy who did thor. I can't pronounce his name which is embarrassing murata premier. If if you didn't have the quality of those types of craftsman people who has spent the time developing their craft people worked at it people were good at and are willing to buy into a larger plan the work. Luckily i'm the only time is i gotta worry about your. I can figure that out. I'll get yeah but you've worked on other people's timelines. You've worked. You have written yeah you've written on so it's interesting that your career is woven into so many different things in behind it. There's some idea idea expression of your creativity and expression of your desire to to you know <hes> a desire to make a mark in your world and <music>. It's interesting because all the successful people. I've met lots of them on been doing this show and not just in in the career as an entrepreneur. I always finally start scratching scratching their surface a little bit whatever it is. They're doing if they're good at it. You usually find someone like if they're creating beautiful things that they make money on. I'm not talking about on wall street here. Bro what i mean like i think i think there's a difference between an entrepreneur and a bank stor. I say bank banker banksters okay. Let's see we're going you know but when i'm when i'm meet those people that have created something beautiful and they become very wealthy about it and people say oh yeah they're nominee are usually very revert. All the ones. I've met are very high integrity. They're super creative. They know that if they wanna make something meaningful there needs to come with profit it and the realistic and both out approach and you know i always find that and i've i've found that with you you know it's like you're an artist in a sense but you've got a family to feed. You got goals in life and that's so wonderful. It really is thinking what else we got on here. I got a cover hang on. Oh i got a tough one. I don't wanna leave anything behind. Is there anything else that you want to discuss about your career well. I don't know in this era. 'cause i'm getting ready to right now. Gear up to san diego comecon which is the big nerdy graaf thing of the year comic book conference. Yes sir comecon. International san diego is considered the biggest just pop culture and kombucha celebration in the year and people real touchy about the names. I'm trying to get it right. Most people just say oh it's d._c. Come and that's the thing that i do. It's been good for me from a creative standpoint because i've met a lot of collaborators gotten a lot of great ideas. I've been able to promote my work in a way that has been very good for sharing the work out there but it's also been profitable. I was on a paddle at wonder con when this publisher saw me and i ended up writing twenty two books for him wondering comics i did a historical fiction miniseries series called scoundrels said in nineteen eighty-one angeles so much research i did <hes> irrational numbers which was a supernatural historical fiction book about about vampires from ancient greece to modern romania well nineteen ninety-two romania because i think i only went up to the revolution there and then i wrote twelve issues shoes at this time travel series called term core which i got to do the most ridiculous possible things. I'll send them to attack the berlin conference in late eighteen hundreds how i'm going to send them to you know i would just do this crazy crazy things and he was like sure go it. It's like oh what a what if story if story and i just i kept trying and make sure that i'll stay true to the character that i made the character so when something happened you really had a feeling was important. It was all the stakes were always personal personal as well as grandiose and that's that book was such a great experience with me. It's on issue on my second issue out now. 'cause they're still drawing it time. Core thirteen gene is outright now from wonderman comics digital booksellers. It's a it's a blast. I have so much fun on. That book are you. Are you late night worker or are you an early morning morning worker or wendy do your stuff. I am a late night person but having a family that's hard because i have to wake up with kids to school to whatever so i've had to make a lot of alterations rations in what i do. I say a lot of time every second. I'd take for myself. I'm stealing for somebody else so i was. I was at a panel at black comics arts festival in san francisco and i was doing something talking in the videos like and sometimes when they slow down at work. I'm listening some comics. Everybody you're gonna get fired. I'm like misty knows. My boss knows isn't that. I've said it on multiple videos like she knows. Why did he get done this. You have any questions sure you know or my wife. You've been in the bathroom for a while. I'm like what oh okay. I'll be right out so <hes>. I have to sneak it in the land at the supermarket or or if you know there's a lull in a meeting or so after sneak into work wherever i can. I get a lot done on saturdays when my kids are in dance class <hes> but you know it's just about it's important to me so i have to force myself to find the time and sometimes i'm sick the time from other places and i'm sorry but in the words of john carroll a writer is kind of a whole is coley sociopath. So you kind of see it coming with writer. It's like you. The story is probably going to be writing stuff. Sorry yeah there's no. There's no way to avoid it in a sense. There's no way to avoid. They're always here you know is is there like <hes> beneath these stories that we love right so there's like an archetypal foundation right that kind of runs through a lot of stories below it you know from lord of the rings to <hes> black panther. There's like there's like this archetypal story. That's it's running under a there's there. They're all they are is re representations of the hero myth or representation of a woman myth of female l. hero myth or male hero myth or a family dynasty myth or the tragedy of the godfather movies are simply no different than any greek tragedy in terms of the generations and the destruction and the family rises and falls. There's undertone. Do you have like is that just coming in naturally elite to you or are you thinking about that structure that low structure of it. I'm definitely thinking of joseph campbell inside out of definitely that's definitely part of the work and a lot of what i do in that regard is both playing an subverting it because one of the key teachings of my education gatien wildwood u._s._a. Was the endings have to be both surprising and inevitable so there's something that i have to get. I know i have to get there but if you know what it is before or i get they're entertaining for you to read the journeys. Not something you want to do so with me for example you know win how accounting to think of one that i can say okay through that one. Oh no far always been out loud enough. I guess i mean it's not at the ending wing of forward. Something happens that is messed up. It is messed up okay and it had to happen. It's totally true to the characters. It's completely but the stakes are really high and when it happens people i have like you knew what this was. You always always knew what this had to be and and it goes off that way and talk to people about like i can't i can't i couldn't couldn't believe it. I'm like no. I mean i saw what had happened but i just couldn't believe that it happened and that's really disorder reaction i'm looking for that's really the way that i was just trying to go because if they're still emotionally affected by like you say i mean i'm i'm. I'm forty six years old right and i'm wearing landau. I'm not shirt and you know and i can talk about the effect that star wars has had on my personal life shared many times parenting when my kids blaze i tried to do or do not there is no try the affected that's come out sherry in everyday life to me. Okay so if you really if you can make a story where people care in an affects them it will carry on and you know that's that can have enormous financial <hes> rewards but can also have enormous personal rewards. I'll tell why last day on this i was it was at a mall at this art thing and a kid and is that mexican couldn't have been more than ten eleven and i'm looking at. I'm like that's weird. Ohio and in the kid walks up to me and says yeah i've got heart it beats disappointment through beats ice water through veins of corrugated disappointment and i stopped because that was a land from a poem i'd written twelve fifteen years before for emily what you read that poem at the staying at the world stage limor part and my mom took me and i remembered it who and in the mom goes oh my god and they start telling me about this poem and how this stuck with them for years and years and years people oh my own community that i don't know and that just hit me. I was like she's eleven and that stuck with her because when i rid that's been like seven or six or something so who who who remembers that. How does that happen and that's because that's because what happened when you read that poem was both surprising and inevitable for her. You fulfilled some destiny or you handed her some explanation of the universe which she's used used ever since your spirit encountered hers on the journey right. It's kind of like that or something you. Your art was impactful at that's so rewarding hannibal. I can't answer that's. That's incredibly rewarding. Have that impact on people. We've been speaking for almost ninety minutes. It's and in the last. I've done three a two three hour podcasts but i actually can't do it today. I'd love to keep going with hannibal and i'd love to have you on mr where where can people find your books in your poetry and your work. My website is hannibal taboo dot com h in in i b as in bounce a._l. Season tough a. b. isn't bound. You dot com spelled a lot and i'm a part of a creative studio called operative network operative dot net where we most most most weeks of the year. We do free web comics. <hes> we just finished season four of project wildfire called once and future king will be starting season five smoke on the water project welfare smoke on the water. This fall. I literally was scripting <hes> last night when my wife is sleeping and add. That's where people can find my work. I'm on social media at hannibal taboo on twitter facebook tumbler and instagram so i try to make myself easily find. Thank you for being a guest on the get a grip on life podcast thank you. This was fantastic. If you're listening to this in wherever you're you're doing and you thought about starting a podcast. You know what if you're thinking about writing a book manny should be inspired by hannibal taboo. It was really a he really gave a lot of gold there with his process and and and just letting you know that it's okay to think crazy stories in your head that are not true. Sometimes those are super awesome and they make great books so do that but if you wanna start a podcast you wanna create digital media go to get a grip studios dot com. Thank you for listening.

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Kojo Boateng

Revision Path

1:07:29 hr | 11 months ago

Kojo Boateng

"You're listening to the revision path podcast, a weekly showcase of the world's black graphic designers web designers and web developer through in-depth interviews. You'll learn about their work their goals and what inspires them as creative individuals. Here's your host Maurice Cherry. Everybody welcome to revision path. Thank you so much for tuning in this week. I'm your host Mariz Cherry head before we proceed look I. Know. It's rough, super fucking rough Tom Right, now between protests, the outside police response, and of course this overwhelming presence of the global pandemic. There's just a lot of shit going all right now and I wanted to post something last week episode three forty nine right before it went to production, but the way things escalated in cities all across the world over this past week, and a half, or so really made me think about like. What if anything could this podcast even? Say to help you know all of you that are out there. Listening to this podcast, we just people all over the world so I started talking to people I started asking questions and one of the folks I talked with. Kendall House you might remember from Episode Three Twenty Six back in December of twenty nineteen. Th. You don't go check that out. He's a designer. He's a facilitator. He's even someone who has his own black liberation hard for pump Bam, which is Super Dope, and I really couldn't think of a better person to really help contextualized, not just what's happening right now, but also to offer up some action items that designers developers or any creatives that are listening to this show can do during these times, so I'm going to read off a list of things that he told me and you know this is if you're listening if you've. been in the streets protesting if you given money. If you feel like there's not anything you can do if you can't do either of those things, hopefully, this list will give you some ideas of stuff to do. First off can design a product. like a t shirt buttons greeting cards, etc, sell or Raffle does to make money to donate to black lives. Matter causes core to reputable bail funds. That's a really good idea. donate website revamps to nonprofits. Need support organizations I know there are few past guests on the show who have started doing that via twitter. For those of you who worked in House hold your employer accountable representation, diversity and inclusion. especially outside of posting a regurgitated support message in white type on a black background like if your company did that at some point within the past seven to fourteen days, hold them accountable for that. And also just seriously commit to making inclusion including accessibility fundamental to everything you design. I, know it can be easy to just design from specific viewpoint, but really take into consideration the fact that once your design kind of leaves your hands. It belongs to everyone. And if you can, if you're able by the time. You know get out in the streets like everyone else, but just please be saved. Wild Shit happening out there. we're going to skip the sponsor message for this week at least for the intro and we're just going to go straight into this week's interview. I caught up with Koh Tang. He's the creative director at PBS news hour in Washington DC. Remember, Kolja was episode one twenty five way back in February of two thousand sixteen. You believe that. It's almost five years later. This is a really great time to catch up and talk to him about everything that's happened since then so I hope you enjoy the conversation. Let's start the show. All right, so tell us who are and what you do. My name is coach watching and I'm a director at PBS Newshour. Now you, we've been on the show for episode one twenty five, so if people WANNA really like, go back and listen to your origin story. I guess you could put. They can listen to that episode I? Kind of want to talk about how things are going sort of right now. You know we've been asking this with people that have been on the show recently given the time that we're recording. How are you holding up during this pandemic in this quarantine period? Yeah, so how I'm holding up during the quarantine here it is really interesting. In DC and West still in a lockdown until I think tomorrow where they're going to start removing some restrictions, so be interesting to see what that looks like as far as work. I'm working a remote knee and I've only been a PBS for `bout two months I think I started. Working Pbs Newshour whilst me with your in lockdown, so actually I haven't even been into the office and seeing the space. King I haven't met any people who I manage manage about four people never met them before O'Neill's skype and zoom and teams that kind of stuff. To be honest. The transition into working has been pretty. Because, I had a background in us, so there's a law things that feel familiar modern, working remotely for and kind of freelance for the last five years. So what can slack and teams in all? These other things doesn't feel strained. Adding just trying to find inspiration creatively can be challenging and just trying to make sure you get enough exercise enough ever. There's overseas so many different facets that people's lives in his work. Can this family and kids homeschooling? Sort of that's been an adjustment, but to be honest with you. As, we said Folkston. Pretty Awesome right now. Yeah, well, that's good to hear. Let's get to here. So, let's talk a little bit more about your work at PBS. Newshour, that's that's really interesting that you started it during the quarantine period I wanna say there's been maybe about four or five of the past guests that we've had in the past few months. Whereas with a very similar situation, they just started a new job. They transitioned into a new job and it's right during this kind of like weird and stressful time, so you talked about these different tools. Slack teams, etc. What are your workdays looking like now? Because you're not like in studio? Yeah, so the what days a PBS Newshour, a very structured, and they generally structured around a number of editorial meetings every day. I have a nine o'clock meeting where there's about seventy people on the cool, and we talk about the stories of the day, and also like a retrospective of the night spro costs before so we can talk about any issues that happened generally speaking by the often. We have an idea of the type of stories that are going to be covered so right now we're right in the midst of all of the craziness. You know the horrible situation that's happening in Minneapolis as well as was happening with trump on social media, the momentum, the pandemic etcetera, but once we kind of know who. The stories of the day all than we're basically working to create graphics for the day as what is looking ahead to any special programming that we've got coming up or any sports special projects that happening within PBS Newshour that we need to look at too so the days generally quiet structured that probably can be quite stressful because they're oversee some communication issues, but the technology actually is a real help, and I just read just recently got a CPA vase computer as well. Well back thing like sharing files. You know huge kind of like two gig files across the agreed slow network. When you'll crushing to to make time can Munich stressful overall? It's been face moving. The I've been doing this foot such time before, so there's a lot of things that consumers kicked him like muscle memory for me Radia back when I was working at glitch, that was one of the big issues that we also had was. We have in the office? Network Server and we could upload to the server, but like it's really slow with. It's more than one GIG. It might time out as sometimes. You have to restart the page, so you can get the connection back could be a lot of issues with that sort of stuff, yet is true and I think why found is that even today? I was working on something with reporter and I've never met him before, so festival is kind of reductions in on his staff, and then get to the what could okay. I've done the work than how am I gonNa, be able to. Let Him. See a preview of is so today I basically just sent. Lee Supernova that he's to six full. Team so we can see. We had a conversation right now. You know I'm reading. Encouraging the people I work with to not just communicate by email gallon the phone and told people and I. She stopped building those relationships. Wall Square in this remote situation so that we can kind of get some kind of what cadence understanding what the pressure's off from each other. Sure that they're on any holes they you know. And also the phone, honestly, especially, if they're all the same time zone in the same general geographic area, the phone is a whole lot easier. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely debate. You'd be surprised how reliant people become with email to cleanly. You guess script till you get a graphic quest. You know you're looking at it. Sometimes, everybody writes differently, too. So everybody's requests in the way in which they put things is different. I had one person the other weeks and we like. To page thing and I was panicked thinking my goodness. GonNa have to get a couple of people on this on when I. She dug into giving me some information. Actually, it was just like fifteen stills that needed to animate to his words that was it was really simple. Another people might just give you something which seems sympathies actually when you dig into it, it's a lot more complex in needs to have that conversation in terms of making sure that we can be allies tougher the story correctly. As there's four people that are on your team, but like overall how many people help really put the show together I? Think there's about one hundred people who were on the news hour, and you know one of the things that made me want to work. There was some amazing reports, and particularly in this time now, where local news journalism is under threat. felt that PBS news hour more than any other station is actually making a real difference different voice out there and I think that we. We might expertise as well. I felt that I could definitely make a difference to the work that during their our executive dussehra adjusts. He's amazing. She ABC News. A Judy Woodruff Oviously I'm not wild James Balloon News specialist producer, and of course Michele single. Who's been doing some amazing work as White House correspondent on currently welcome on the Minneapolis story right now, so those people that kind of ticked me over the edge in terms of one into God. What they're not so it's really cool. Cool. How did you first like find out about an opportunity and get started there? How I found out about the job was sort on link to in old Gloucester or something like that and I wasn't actually going to apply for it. Initially, I was working previously to the contracting on a project to the University of Maryland you MDC cannot educate edge tech educational tech platform. And I was just kind of thinking I would just stay in product, but you know I was visiting looking for new opportunities. Opportunities and I wanted a new gig necessarily during I was doing the time, and this job came up, and I wasn't going to apply for, but my wife suggested I. You should just apply for any way. then. It was interesting just going into the interview process that there were just so many things that would just familia is cut. It's hard to explain so much like being a box of the twenty years in, and then not having boxed for ten input you picking up gloves, you know. Just kind of comes back to you the language the terminology just how you postal rates together understanding whether gaps. This really just is really quite scary to be with you. How smooth transitions been at? Your question. No, no, the dude. And, now what we I spoke, it was back in twenty sixteen, which feels like fifty years ago at this point. Here in the UK, then what made you decide to sort of hop over the pawn? So the speech? The reason I moved to us was because my partner at the time is American and I decided that I didn't want to long distance anymore. So I moved I was fortunate enough to be able to get a job which allow you to take see where we live now and that Khaimah time interesting, the last vision I was definitely in a transition period I think probably working it in the UK News Company for about fifteen sixteen years i. think during the lost. William, podcast I'd NEST ITN on I was retraining as a product designer. And the reason is interesting in product was because basically got tired of US felt, that was heading towards a career cul de sac. You know news is great, but you can definitely get stuck in if you're not careful and I've been doing it a very long time so once I moved to the states. I kinda was much less to gain ready from being craved right to managing a team. What can these huge projects in the UK and then coming to the states, not knowing anybody not really having a career. Path outlined having all these new skills having a of money, but not really any idea of where this is. All heading was really interesting on coupled with visa stuff. You know just like the technicalities of what you can. Khandu and I had a she social security number. You realize to the UK when you are of age in UK, you get something quarter national insurance number, and he's basically the thing that's like you'll get tax code. These social security number in the US is much more insidious kind of thing you know you nothing without no, sir, never so many kinds of challenges to deal with and to be you know a Novus the English the slack group with you. You guys too, but I was seriously on him under employed for the lost three years, when still really trying to find a way to figure out what my path was? And you know just where I wanted to be as a designer read craved designer, even on those things as well having all of these skills in having people tell me I was overqualified or underqualified, or whatever, even though of Twenty five years experience. Yes, it was pretty, it was pretty challenging time transitioning to a new country bomb, fortunate of support, my family of some some friends who were able to connect me with people and slowly, but surely I kind of was able to try to stop building community here in DC is what well Nice. That's good to hear. It's interesting. You mentioned that that transition period because I kind of feel like. I might be at that. Point Myself Right now. Offer, folks that are listening that probably know this announced it on twitter, but I was recently laid off. It's sort of a cookie side effect of this whole pandemic in you know other sorts of business issues, but I know it's sort of a point where I'm taking a bit of a break before I decided to kind of really get back out there and start looking for work, but I get that feeling about what you're saying about like being under employed, it's. Start to get you know people have been contacted me about Oh, you should apply for this apply for that. All kinds of recruiters have come out of the woodwork. Because I've mentioned on link dinner. Whatever it I mean. They're all over the map in terms of the quality of work, some of them are like straight up internships. Some of them are in feels that I have zero experience in like Java engineer. I'm not a job in your. You know, but like it's. It's coming from like all fronts so I'm trying to think like. What is it that I wanNA do next because while I came up in design I had my own design studio back when I worked for my former employer I didn't really do a ton of design work. It was more like around marketing in media now I did help establish our design department there, but like I. You know only did some design work here. They of like jack-of-all-trades. If they needed me to edit audio, I could do that and it video could do that. Make something design I can do. That is not an Australian logo and illustrator. I can do that something in Photoshop. Whatever sketch sigma hop into all of those things and just kind of understand it gets work. That kind of makes it tough when you're looking for new jobs, 'cause there's not like a jack of all trades position. You kind of have to narrow yourself down to. What it is that you WANNA do to fit whatever roles are out there yet, but you know I hear you that and let me tell you something I left my previous position when I was in the UK. I walked somewhere. You know afterwards. which I thought would be an amazing opportunity. I essentially was. Let go from there. which was you know for someone like me? Who is pretty kind of pretty methodical in a way in which my brain must way which I think was like my whole world opening up on. The world opened up in swag me. I had no idea what was going to have proven. My mug. Good friend! I was in tears I had no idea. Let me give you. Some highlights of some of the things that happened in between that time that make you at ease off leaving that job. Three months later I ended up. What a prince video with somebody who was introduced to me by the lady who is now my wife, okay? I moved to the states out what to numerous companies in the states three ounce albeit to a degree underemployed opportunities. What can capital one of what you G.? Done programming directing for AIG a design week last year made friends from through AIG A. PBS You know so. There are so many things that can happen and I think sometimes you know there's that saying as one door closes, another opens. Actually as one to close as many doors open you just into the decide which door you wanna go through the other thing I would say is. Is that I I? Suffer from the same thing as well kind of not being a generalist off somebody. WHO's t shaped? Ms Benefit but I also think as a black designed. We need that you know when you're obliged. Designer unique to be able to relate a bricks and the foreman. You know. I mean you need to to cook the food and service. And Duly administrative things and I think that puts you in good stead, because you never know when something is going to happen, that means that you actually do have to rely some other skills. You know I think for me. One of the challenges has been that particularly in tech. You either fine people who want something very specific so a you X. person has what's in education or has done Sass or is done, aws order. Order, these things all you have somebody companies who just want a visual designer or they want somebody who can Adiel Code and I think the me wide realizes that you never stop learning, so I like to learn new things and I like to do things that keep me interested in. I think that occasionally there were some rare people that come into your life, and they see those things and they'll be on with them A. Shout to agent, heroin or Audra from capital one who I just met randomly, and they gave me an opportunity to welcome the team. So you never know man I just feel like. If you stay true to yourself and key creative and have leasing yourself the right things come along used to be patient a no way. You WanNa go. So now that you're here and you're settled, you're you're working? Of course you know even in the midst of this quarantine in everything, what has the design and the creative seen been like for you here in DC but design and creative seeming DC is very interesting. Because on the surface, it would appear that the see is quite dry. I always found it quite transactional when I used to go to meet ups initially. But when you scratch, the the self is, there's a law things going on in DC you know, and I think that you know A. G.. A. Comes in for Love Slack. Flak rather hope generally particularly with like designers and minority designers, but the DC chapter of Aig is doing some really great kind of work on the ground, and there's a real design community here and I'm really happy to. Be a Paul via and I'm not saying it's perfect I think that they also open to hearing about any issues at Cetera, so there's some really crave things happening aside from. Jay's doing my work with a guy called Kennedy tolls on mural festival CO POW so I'm Kelly. Remember how MC think. Diane Holton actually and powwow is a huge Niro festival that happens in DC. Is going to be an October. September October this year. Pandemic willing, and essentially what they do is they have about ten designers based in DC and ten designers rotties from outside, and they come, and they basically paint huge mules crossed the city. There are kind of much more kind of grassroots organizations shout to shout in jazz who are creative hip hop outfit out here in DC. Who doing some amazing community work? They do a thing called. Can I kick it, which is film screenings which are scored using a hypnotic J., so they'll take film lake, seven deadly venoms, the martial arts film, and they'll school the film with hip hop and breaks in. It's awesome, so there are some really really interesting things happening and I I think that with this pandemic. DC THE DC. Crave communities reading enough to think hard about how they kind of do things actually so we're already thinking about these design weakness year, and how that's going to be kind of on I'm not working directly with it, but you know I'm GonNa be doing a couple of events program some events with them. Yeah, the these DC has a really robust, creative community, small, but mighty, small but mighty. Interested to see how you know design events start to. Sort of become more virtual in the future because I I wonder now if people are just kinda burned out on. The sort of. Squares looking. Like event experienced for everything from you know. A Primetime television show to in is live battle to a conference at also looks like work in a way. It does I agree I mean I think that you know it's interesting, because know site at night, me and Mrs Robinson Bats Kenner and beating. On the buses and you know we were riveted. Literally. Know Mirror in our phones, the TV and just jamming. You know so I think that there's no accounting for a great idea. Great content you know, and if you can find the rhyme medium to do that I, think that there's a bit of a kind of like a Zombie location of what's happening right now. Everybody's. Everybody thinks they can do a podcast. Everybody thinks they can deejay live in, but he thinks they can do in it. Live chat, but if the contents not good people are GonNa? Fall off! You know so I. Didn't what all of this is done is accelerated the idea of how we're GONNA. Stop thinking creatively. I mean my partner, my wife she was for the Smithsonian. She's been doing some amazing work. You know thinking about a. A are and how you can kind of experienced a existing exhibits to your phone, if you're actually being able to be at the physical location, I think these kinds of innovations or new ways of thinking probably would have happened, but it takes something like this kind of accelerate workers and accelerates these things I think it's just a really. There seem great opportunities out. Ages have to kind of think about him into. Try Stuff, yeah! I wonder if we'll start to see. Like hybrid virtual in person kind of events, because right now a recording this every state in the United States is in some form of reopening. So that means some venues are open, but the the attendee count has to be pretty small, so if you're at a restaurant, the capacity has to be I think fifty percent less, or if you're doing gatherings. They've gotta be. Be Ten. People are less or something like that I wonder. If there's a way to kind of bridge, the in person with the virtual in some sort of way I think that's GonNa come within the next few few months or so yeah. I mean. I think I think that will be I. think that you know There's a friend of mine here in DC. Joe Furious Oh. He's A. Collect took, and he had a. he has a gallery which he just opened just before law. All of this started you know, and you know one of the things he was thinking of doing was having. You know private viewings where you can come by appointment CPR and you know. Put some cheese and wine for you in everything sanitizing super clear so I think. To some degree, I think the physical physical experiences will definitely change BIOS I feel like as a black person. Guy No way. So I'm not trying to go out there and have anybody coughing on me right now. Simple simple as that you know we, we're all going to be wearing mosque, and who who'd a thought life four months ago, a few said you know we're going to be like Beijing or Tokyo that the everybody was moss, because pollution is stuff that we'd be doing that. This is the new normal so I. Feel like they're definitely opportunities. In terms of how we are going to experience these events, but there's no getting away from a good idea is gonNA is gonNA be some Super Dope to get me out right now. Agree I totally agree I. Mean here in Georgia. It's been different because we've been quote unquote. Now for I. Don't know about a month I. WanNa say like they lifted the shelter in place order at the end of April, and then they started opening up businesses, waves, and so I have already sort of put on my calendar that the Friday or Saturday before Memorial Day was going to be my first time kind of venturing out into the city just to kind of see what it's like. Like so I did that on Saturday and it was amazing like a lot of people were not wearing masks. Many people are just out and about like it was a regular Saturday. I would say thirdly terms the number of people that were out it was it was much less like I felt kinda weird, because people that weren't wearing masks were definitely walking by looking at me, sneering like Oh. You're wearing that thing you know and it's like. Let me just get what I need to get and go home. You know 'cause I feel like there's GonNa already be the stigma where people have already attached stigma to wearing masks, just in general because of the pandemic, but then there's also the additional racial component and what that might cause people to think or do or say. Say as we've seen from kind of some recent things where people are calling the police and all that sort of stuff like yeah, totally I mean I feel that yet i. he won that Aaron DC if I come out my house, just walking on the street I would say sixty to seventy percent of the people just outside wearing the moss. Obviously, it's mandatory if your in. A grocery store, a whole foods or wherever all day the to wear Marx's in this, you have to wear a mask. To a store? Okay, so but. Just various sliced segue own of this stuff. The if you've seen that movie, is it nine hundred and sixty you with the first World War One, nine, thousand, seven hundred. Hundred Seventeen. All the people are going over the top at the western front. That's black people. That's not cool. Who Frontlines and want us to? You know so I'm not going anywhere. Simple. I'm not going anywhere without mosque. I've gotten several masks. I wanted to make sure I had one that would. Fit Right that would look right. You know because they're all not made equal. Of course you can get those little disposable mass but I. don't see myself leaving enough to really need like fifty disposal masks in a box like I'm not going out every day, so yeah, I've been getting a few different types of mass to see which one fits esteemed like overnight. A swear to God like overnight. Every company was now showing masks. Because, most Sydney sneakers lawsuit new t shirts. Oh boy, bessette. Yeah. You see the with valves without vow they've got. Designer masks, To. To create this. Really create ones out. ME. So one of the things I've been seeing you do when you've been talking about fences, you mentioned. It's a group called five points. Can you talk about? Yes, where that idea came from the idea for five points was stat of our friend here in. Code Matt Green. He also is one of the CO founders of district, running collective, which is black running out the. Met Matt through my friend Charlie Doc also is for the UK and has a running. And Web designers and at the time I was thinking about i. just moved to DC. Realising off the going to allow of UPS. You know what you do when you go to me. That's no predominantly black people going there you sit down and then you turn around and you do account right. How many of you and consistently going to these events and realizing that there wasn't really anything which was a safe space for lack designers and I wanted to do an event code create, which wasn't just speaking to like design, but everybody but Matt wanting to do something specifically. Ethan blight designers so I think we've done about three or four five points events now and essentially. Essentially what the event is is a speaker series where we find designers, a black designers in creatives from a multitude of disciplines can come in, and they'll basically just talk about that. What career path, but interestingly was happened as the events is gone on, it's almost like each event has been a chain letter so the first event we had on the Renzo Wilkins and. Gen Y., Johnson. Raising photographers designer from. Maryland reading and she teaches a belief on, so she gave Aridi. Amazing presentation her work teaching, and over the course of a few events, it kind of tuned into events about crave entrepreneurship as well as some. He had brother Dwayne rollins common speak, convince Angus speak about creative entrepreneurship, so not just looking at the creative side of design and how to get job. Also how could potentially start? Your own business will turn your side into A. A business all the mechanics of accounting bookkeeping, and the importance of that so reading, looking at design and black people at a much more holistic and inventing way and the name five points comes from kind of the Black Panthers Template Program so we have five points kind of like a five point program, which is around kind of community, building and entrepreneurship in creativity in all of these things, but the interesting thing about the events also is that. Each speaker comes to fly points. They have five points that they want to share with the people that come. And then the people that come also shared five points if you got five people in the audience than twenty five points, plus the five points from the person S. that's thirty cool tidbits that you can leave with you know so. That's essentially the idea. Really five points. I like that kind of lake, additional aspect like sharing five points as well like I like how that sort? Sort of feeds into the the name and everything like that at first I was gonna I was wondering if it was a hip hop related, I was thinking of of five points in New York. City yeah I, mean it's interesting because there's also like a five points I can't remember which state it was in, but it was. It was like a real kind of black. A Black Wall Street type place comment, which they it was now and I think as well in DC. Because of the shape of the district has while also has our point, so there were many there's about three or four different kinds of epidemiologic coup of. Ways you call him. But. Yeah, it's been. It's been really cold. It's been a really cool event. Suddenly because of the pandemic and you know schedules, we haven't been able to do one recently, but you know it's been a real a really powerful way for people to get together, and there's something to be said for forty or fifty black and Brown people. A kind of has a slightly different VIBE. People immediately feel comfortable and able to share a lot more about their experience than they would may be in another environment, which is really great. Yeah, when we did the first live show this year out in Los Angeles in Lamar Park. Did that back in February for black history month there with Aig Los Angeles at it was great. It was great dislike. The energy in that room, and like a lot of people stayed afterwards, and not only did they help clean up and put chairs away, but like there was just fellowship like people left after that and winning got drinks and got dinner together and stuff like that, and I'm like I love that kind of fellowship aspect. Of Black Design events that is totally not present when I go to other design of is just not there prior to all of this quarantine stuff, I had been talking with other chapters DC, actually being one of them talked with other chapters about doing similar live shows there, and then the pandemic happened, and the place that was working for it canceled. All travel and travel now is even still kind. kind of an iffy proposition, part of me thought about reaching back out those chapters. Olas do virtually, but when I really thought about it, I want that live experience like I wanted to be a space of fellowship like a physical space fellowship for people to like actually see another black designer and talk to them in real life. That like you just can't get that same feeling in Zoom, call. I Don know I wonder if we're kind of looking at it the wrong way. I agree with you that you know being physical space is tricky. You know on as soon coal byles. About the experience when you're on it how it's kind of a hey curated for how is kind of organized? A said as I think back to a lost weekend watching bound to catering beanie, Madonna versus last Saturday. We felt you're in our living room, but we felt like we were immersed in I. think that there's a fourth wall that can be broken with any kind of event that. Way You feel like your your kind of getting. Something just depends on how it's done I think increasingly just back to your previous question. This is the new normal man, so we didn't have to get wise to ways in which we can engage in if you're interested in doing something. In DC, we should definitely talk yeah. That absolutely, maybe you know especially now that I've got Tom says I'm not working. Reach back out to those chapters Kinda see like where they are in terms of planning and events because I feel like this is probably upended a lot of events schedules everywhere, so they might be clamoring for some some type of content. Yes, indeed, what impact has hip hop music hat on your design work? He pop music has had an enormous impact on my designed work coming from London. You know growing up in the eighties late seventy seventies eighties where you know the emergencies people. It was the music in the culture that essentially got me into design. You know I used to have a peace book where I would do my Bilo outlines in my little tag and you know it was a way in which I could just kind of express myself away, moving forward I got older. Older I wasn't a huge record collector. I definitely appreciate the artwork and the flyers and know London has a really diverse music scene in the sense, that is a real helpful. All kinds of music not just hop so is a real kind of education in music, following the dots and learning about breaks and other kind of derivative forms, hip, hop, jungle, and Drum Bass and jungle and now grime. UK version of some would argue simple AMMO derivative of it, so it was a huge influence on me a lot much friends in London off deejays and emcees and todd culture, so opposite must I'm used to video, will the live shows and sadly one on my very close friends musician radical tie. He passed away from Cova. Nineteen about two weeks ago. Had that had a huge impact on me. And you know my my kind of circle of friends, and in fact, with tie I was the I remember because he knows the are as well in new idea, power as well and I remember taking to when I was doing my masters in. Our members taking him to my university to introduce into the Internet and I sat him down able to have an email eddie. Oh, power and I said to him and visit a website the economic the saints him. Your New York now. You're on a new. York. Public site in combat how you'll music travel around the world. And, then with him kind of designing some of his the kind of single covers, mogos t shirts in that kind of stuff. In a way aside from the career of had professionally is always kind of been Paul of. Why do you know and some of my good friends? You know have gone to even bigger things in the music industry so? Like. There's a design Orleans. Who is a really close friend of mine who? Come to create event man. He did album covers. I didn't even know he did when I met him, so he didn't like the most black star album. He designed the logo for boys in the hood. He did the loss gangsta album. So many kinda great covers, and he subsequently excuse me to brother who you may have had on the show. June lettuce on. Some amazing work fifty cents on Sunday, the other great thing, so he was episode fifty. To fifty. So. It's kind of think that one of the things that as mentioned briefly earlier, odd been doing this event cold create and. Is Actually about building community, and it is about all of the things that actually the I'm interested in that might be designed. That might be fashioned. It might be A. But really for me I feel like. You can't have designed without culture and design is at the intersection of culture. You know, and that's really what my life is about as well. You can't have culture without design. You have culture about creativity. unsew. That's kind of He. And you know Jamaican Culture in African Coachella. Day. I, if there's been diagram of all of those things right bang in the middle. What is it? That's keeping you motivated and inspired these days it's it's interesting because I think during this kind of pandemic allow. People have been saying. Oh, it's an opportunity for you to learn something and you know you could read that book. You never rare or go for walks and meditates like I don't works. Do you know what? A new state is very busy and you know we have family. We Hung School in. You know my wife is what he as well, but I think I'm doing quite bands reading this book, which was introduced in the cold at right here in it's cold. The company of one and I'm kind of reading looking into kind of like more on the business side of things. Things heading for business training, so I'm kind of just thinking about know new assigned projects that I can be doing that you know might turn into some kind of inspired by the what that said Muffin Kenny. Tolls is doing the POWWOW, so we convict him and just like the last week or two stroke in about hip hop music of always wanting to DJ. Always wanted to learn. I did when I was a teenager, but never really picked up. Coach took over. Decks recently. Eka Sudden Saracho Salaam Nonni all of that on the whole interface, just kind of learning more music. This topic I'm reading interest in game two right now, but you know outdoor cheese eleven and you know she's always homeschooling and everything so trying to keep her motivated. It is was not motivated. I think what's inspiring about what right now. I think I said at the beginning of this interview is the fact that we are in a tremendous period of change right now. And I feel like old is Asians like PBS, which publicly funded unimportant voice to have an so, what's actually inspiring to be honest with you is to have a of that to be a part of that to be able to message Michel Sin Door with a story and say hey. Have you seen this and she hasn't amazing. She mentioned on the program or to be able to. You know people talk about having a seat at the table to be able to kind of talk out the nuances of. Of How you might visualize a story likely sad, a mud or of the young African American man of the days ago. You know something to be part of that is inspiring. A designs side of it is as I said earlier. It's kind of something that I have done before, so it's to degree second nature but I'm actually really grateful for the opportunity to be able to make a difference in hopefully make the news hour bath than when I came to it. If you knew that you couldn't fail in your professional life, what would you try to do why we try to do is take more wrists, but I think the quiet safe kind of person quiet can be quite methodical. Knowing that you everything will be okay. I think you know it's a really tough question to ask a person WHO's working class. You know I think that we are. I am anyway a prebuilt with kind of flashier already embedded with of fear of failure in this kind of quite antiethical now continuing for working in product design way, you know you're supposed to felt fos, but failing Fox for a person of color could be the difference between rent food. China one, but it's. It's an interesting question. You Austin is something that I am constantly kind of trying to push past even in my designed what? Was the choice of typeface old the Colorado. The technique that you use him again goes. That's what I was saying earlier about kind of continuous. Keep on learning, you know. You kind of new forwarding your career. I think one of the reasons. I go out with news in the beginning. Was Because slack a big? Comfy Sofa that you could never get out from when you have a situation where you don't want to change something than that can be kind of detrimental to your career. You know is if you're not reinventing than your. You're dying. And it's a constant I'm saying it comes from kind of sage. Trust me. I have the same kind of insecurities in the same kind of doubt that everybody does, but. One thing I've realized as well though particularly welcome is some people here. Is that most of the time we're betting the people that release places just because they work on facebook. Crap'll these companies doesn't make them any bell? You know they just had the title. Very true just because you went from the Brian. Don't make you to brand. Just makes you number COG in the wheel. Who's maybe just try to do a good job? That's something that I've been thinking about. Particularly like as I looked to see what my next opportunity is like. I feel like at this point. It would have to be something remote one just because the pandemic like nobody's really going back into offices soon. That's the first thing the second thing I've been working remotely much longer than. Than I've been working in offices like the last time I worked. Legit in an office was two thousand eight, and I know of the changes even back with my old employer, I would maybe work there like a week or two out of the year, but like I hated I was like Oh, I, want to get back to my setup at home. Where like I by my right desk and my chair and everything like. Like I'm I'm to am I. Companies Now are going to have to sort of adapt to this new sort of distant workforce, but I think a lot of people now are working from home, and they like it, and then like I. Don't know if I WANNA go back into the office, or maybe they don't feel like it's safe to go back into the office so now you've got these new sorts of setups which? Which I think opens up the job market in a way one thing that I've been sort of weary of is like Atlanta and the job market here for designers is not great, especially, not here, not an entry level designer. There's not really a whole lot for you. A lot of places will look to hire people like right out of school where they can get them in like a junior position or something, but. When you've got ten plus years of experience becomes trickier and then also with me. I mean bringing it back to me again. I'm kind of at the point where the work that I've done for. The last few years has been more in strategy and media and less about design I can sort of bring my design knowledge over, but then it's like. Where am I going to find these particular? Types of positions in his substance have to create for myself. And is there a company out there? That fits that so like you have all these. Are At least I. Do I have all these sorts of questions around that kind of stuff I totally on that I mean I feel that you know this working from home? Thing is interesting, because if you're working from home, was home. Look like what? Like what is what is the on lifestyle light? What is your routine? If you always a home, I always tend to take a little bit of kind of. I guess maybe like devil's advocate kind of approach to thinking about things will thinking opposite just to see so okay, so you another for the allow people thinking okay. Maybe just go NATO fun. Thinking about which place on going to work at which is remote, but what if you were actually thinking about starting a business now? In this time it's the best time to stop business right now because everybody's on A. Kind of a great Neville and you know from one of the five points events Mogok. Run run-ins who is us for a nonprofit cooled seats, but he said something. So profound to me. before like how you GonNa stop exchanging hours for dollars how you GonNa do that? Yes, so whilst we will thinking about working for these companies is going back into the same routine again they benefit. The over, but we don't read the benefits of the of the cash. So, what are we? GonNa? Do Tim. Power ourselves so that we can actually have our own businesses off off flourishing whilst working from home, what kind of network we build the The empowers us you know now because to working from home right. So. How did he do that? You know that's kind of where my brains out right now. In terms of my thinking unawed is not necessarily pushing pixels. It's really more about the kind of high level strategy stuff about what designed looks like in this new world potentially right because now like so many conventions have been just up ended with the with the social distancing or even with just. Putting in these safeguards to make sure that people feel safe to resume the activities that they did prior to all of this. I mean everywhere from airlines office buildings, restaurants movie theaters. I saw like some mockup that was showing a movie theater that had just like these clumps of seats like one seat year two seats here three seats there with all the space in between. Part was like that's perfect I'll! Look. But it's not old adage, isn't it? Right? What is a movie theater? The movie theories, not the movie itself is the experience, the popcorn and ultimately that's how they make money anyway. So how do we kind of? The experience and to be. To degree what road playing that? Kinda tons of reshape inexperience will rhode design thinking play in US thinking about that. There's a company who I did a job for recently, their print company based here just down. The road in Maryland there printshop everything locked down. Because you know they're printing business. No one was doing conferences in advance. They didn't need post that they didn't need leisel that kind. kind of stuff, but what they realized was that they had a fulfillment business that actually could handle the logistics of PP. So what did they do? They pivoted that side of the business to start acquiring P P. basically that's how they sustaining themselves right now, sending PP under those kind of that kind of equipment to along the hospitals in the region. So, what does the design side of that? Yeah the. Black Young creatives on the. Interesting question we should be Austin yourself not just. How can I just roll back into the same routine? Sued I can watch Netflix in the morning. Do My work when what right? especially as I think about movies, because here in Atlanta Tyler Perry has talked about. They're already moving forward on production, even in this sort of. You know Kinda like pandemic locked out for the most part here. There is no lockdown at least in the city or the state of Georgia in general, but in Atlanta, we're sort of on this five phase plan to completely reopen the city. People are still out and about still going at least from what I could see from last weekend, so tyler's like we're moving forward with production on my new shows. I think he's like the first studio to go back into I'm interested to see how that's GonNa, work you know because there's. oftentimes dozens to hundreds of people on set like. How would that all Kinda work? Yes, I mean I'm sure. I think bought a log. Stop sounds like her. You know a a health and safety challenge, and again I feel their opportunities and I'm sure there technologies you know what I mean even looking at something like the delorean, and how the show just in three hundred sixty degree essentially kind of message flat screen environment. You know projected environment. I'm sure they were going to be a bunch of innovations that come that help us with this, but as you know I, feel like we are the front line of this horrible disease, and you know we have to figure out ways in which we can remain safe whilst on feeding our families too so. This is going to be a huge challenge in where. This is. Just wrapping your head around the idea that people talk about restrictions being lifted, but we could be in this for free years from now. This revenue at around three years of you know. Of this kind of working, so how do we make sure that our mental? Health and physical health is kind of is just as good as AL wave creative projects with trying to walk on resume slack and teams and all this stuff. Where do you see yourself in the next five years? What kind of work? Do you WANNA be. Doing In the next five years, I'd like to see myself. Honestly it sounds quite cliche, but I'd like to see myself during much more product in tech work but. That is an amalgam of all the things I've learned over the years I would love to be in a position where I had my own thing and I think I'm. This create collective which is. A mixture of venison hopefully product. Speak series in so many other things in music and culture, and I think that you know oversee WanNa. Make sure that I remain I remain healthy as well because. All of the the deaths whether by police, violence or food covid that I've been personally affected by these. The covert side had definitely give me pause for thought about where where we WANNA be. You know from now and you know. I would love to be able to travel more, but honestly I think that. One of the things that's happened in the last few years is a think that whereas before I was. Kinda thinking this kind of role linear way know go to Finish High School College degree. Get you for job day second Joe Climate Atlanta become a crave director become the top of the tree already Dumna, and so for me now I think is really just about the opportunity to learn the opportunity to be compensated for that work, but also one of the things. That I've Meyer. My Bravo ties Sunday. Pasta Way and other people is the idea of freedom of crave. Read them. Them and I think when you have tournament, freedom your job or soldering freedom in your life, you feel at least expiring for that. You'd to medically feel empowered creative, and there are no boundaries to what you can achieve. So that's the one thing I would love to have is the competence to feel that I'm free to do. What the Hell I want now one question that have kind of been asking everyone on the show this year as a general theme is about you. You know the the notion of equitable future, and I got this concept from going to blackened design conference last year at Harvard and their whole theme was like Black Futuristic Mike. What does it look like for Black People in the future Mike? How do we use what we have to sort of make that happen for us? So how are you using your skills to help? Build that more equitable future? How I'm using my skills to build a acceptable future is really to me. ME, about networks and I think that a point you know in your in your question. You told about black people and I'm from England than when I think of black people I think of the diaspora, not just America and so much friends in London. You're Jamaican. All Nigerian Ghanaian we already have a connection on here in the states, always looking for ways to empower them. I had my friend Harris. It is an amazing stylists. You should look him up. Must Stein US an? Came to DC did an amazing talk with Brent rollins about that extensive careers, and I think that what we're doing in our in our small network of black creatives on friends is trusting each other and helping each other where we can and realizing that for me anyway, equity isn't about getting necessarily again. A seat at the table is about building your own table. And building people on with it and you know I did a tool. how university sometime last year account number when it was maybe around September October and I tick to them. Look one of the things that me to people eighteen inclusion. Designs Design Business and high. We'll black designers. Simple you know don't wait for facebook's two percent quota. Do It yourself right in a way is kind of the reason why. Matin I've been doing five points a while doing create, and you know a y of been helping out with design week is because for one. I see an opportunity to learn i. see an opportunity to work with people who have a similar mindset either within A. Gao within my own kind of friend network, but ultimately it's kind of about China Doofus, self as well you know waiting for somebody to hand something to you. You spend a whole bunch of time complaining about how facebook or another company on employing too many of you all you could support a brother who has an idea whose Stein out and just on the phone call like I did the other day helping the guy had an idea for an didn't know what to do. When I was starting at this as design designer, I had people who I could lean on. No matter race, you know trusting people who could offer advice and I think Pau the thing about creating an equitable future is about sharing that knowledge in you know kind of too possessive about it. I really feel like these ideas quite cyclical and I, kind of believe in commerce while you do, something goes to. SOMEBODY IS GONNA. Come back around and might not be immediately, but it might just comeback around the time when you just need it, you know when you've been laid off from my job, and then you get in Kumasi, Hey coochie design a flyer you know for me. It came with I was literally at my mom's dinner table with my Amex sounded dinner table. I moved back home, and my now wife calling me. Long story show. Hey This is Prince Video, do you? WanNa work on it and neutrally odd, I, write today with on amazing. Guy Could Royston Smith and you know we did that content anybody now. Kinda can cause Sadly, but you never know what next opportunities come from from so Kana? Keep in mind Oakland the afraid to. Be afraid to give. You ideas to trust the people I sale that to. As low cut my list of things I've got. Four things. More here on a sticky note. says. Don't work for free. Don't put out fires. You know when people call you in this I. Need this last minute in China to work for free. Don't compromise on money and don't do favors. An undue favors for people trust. Diane's I created critiques not really about from business. Continuity. kind of serious. This is a serious thing, so. Happy to help people not much, but you have to. Give respect back or at least pasta on. Someone else well said well. We'll just kind of wrap things up your Co. where can our audience find out more about you about your work online? You'll audience at revision. Paul confined more about me on social media twitter instagram at Cape, blotting as K B O, a t and G, and also if you're interested in five points, you can find us at five points, the sea, and also for create collective at creates this C- Eight undisclosed community on instagram all right sounds good. We'll co-. Job Watteau I, WANNA. Thank you so much for coming on the show for talking about how to just like giving us an update on what you've been working on since we last had you on the show. I mentioned on the show back in twenty sixteen i. mean you know since then you really gotta become part of the revision path community, and you help people out with advice with just being a good sounding board, and so I was really really glad to be able to talk to. especially at I think this really fraught time where people need to really just kind of. Here's some advice on what's the next thing to do because we're all in this situation together and don't really know what the way out is. It's kind of good to be. Be Able to bounce these ideas off of each other like that yet me and I wanNA. Thank. You also worries for all of the amazing. What you're within the design community I mean new are up there man seriously doing such great work and you know when when I think about networks, you know. Gabrielle Smith these the be my mighty introduced me to you, and even in my transition to the states, just being Paul I'll collective has been an amazing opportunity. Suggest kind of share ideas of that. You know. We met physically in new. York DC. Become friends with gene. It's amazing, so thank you, thank you, brother for what you're doing is really a great thing. At any time you got you anytime. Off. Big thanks to coach Tang, and of course. Thanks to you for listening. You can find out more about Co. Joe and his work through the links and the show notes at Vision Path Dot Com. And of course, thanks for sponsor for this episode facebook designed. To learn more about how the facebook design community is designing for human needs and unprecedented scale. Please visit facebook dot design. Revision Path is brought to you by lunch a multidisciplinary creative studio in Atlanta Georgia. Are you looking for some creative consulting next project maybe. podcast then let's lunch visit us, at Yep, it's lunch dot, com put a link to it in the show notes. This podcast is created hosted and produced by me. Maurice Cherry with engineering and editing by RJ. BASILIO Our intro voiceovers by Music Banbury with. Music by Yellow Speaker. This week also just want to give a special thanks to kindle house for those great tips that I talked about it in the intro chat out to him. Check out his episode. If you WANNA learn more about him. And I'm just curious. What did you think of this? The Three Hundred and Fiftieth episode? Technically it's the three hundred and fifty third episode. If you count the bonus episodes, we had but canonical. We'll just say three fifty. What did you think of this episode? Did you like the conversation with Kodjo hit me up on twitter instagram, or even better by leaving a rating and review on Apple podcasts? I'll even review right here on the show. As always thank you so much for listening. Thank you for three hundred and fifty episodes. We will see you next time.

DC US UK UK Tom Right twitter PBS Maryland WanNa Atlanta A. Kind partner Koh Tang Washington DC Minneapolis PBS Georgia director Mariz Cherry
Melina Abdullah

Work in Progress with Sophia Bush

2:23:07 hr | 11 months ago

Melina Abdullah

"Hi Everyone Sophia Bush here welcomed a work in progress where I talked to people who inspire me about how they got to where they are and where they think they're still going. Day Whip smarties. Today, we're going to depart from. Her normal schedule and we're actually going to re air a podcast that came out last year. Back in August of two, thousand nineteen. I was lucky enough to interview Dr, Molina Abdullah. She is a recognized expert on race gender, class and social movements. She was a founding member of black lives matter and continues to serve as the Los Angeles. Chapter leader. She is a woman, a scholar, activist, a mother and a friend. She is an incredible offer and she is a person that I learned an incredible amount from in terms of how to show up. Disparity in the system in what we can do about it. In the wake of continued police brutality. In the wake of understanding that police brutality is a public health. And in the wake of horrific videos like that of the death of Ahmad, barbary. The murder of George Floyd. And? Our understanding that Brianna Taylor an EMT, a first responder carrying for covid patients was executed by police in her apartment. We have worked to do. We have things to confront. I say we because I am including myself as a white woman. And my hope is that all of you will join us today to listen to this episode as we re air it with no ads. Just, because we know it is the right thing to do. You won't hear from sponsors. You will just hear from Dr Abdullah. She answered my questions and they're questions that I imagine many of you have as well so please. Show Up. Listen Up. And learn from the experts how we can all speak up. Because, people are dying and it's our job to do something about. I really appreciate all of you I hope you enjoy this conversation with Dr Lebda left. I want to jump right in getting that. We were talking about before. I realized I should have pushed record. There's an article in the land magazine. And they wrote that you have quote, become the scourge of the L. a. p. d. a CO founder of the Los Angeles Chapter of black lives, matter and a member of the group's national, leadership team you are perhaps the most vocal visible effective critic of law enforcement, and all of Los Angeles. For the past four years you have organized the grieving families of people killed by the police, or who died in police custody into a formidable group of advocates, seeking deep changes to policing in La. To me, that reaches very high. Compliment me to. Word score is so charged, but do feel. kind of like a badge of honor at this point, absolutely absolutely when we think about what LAPD is, you know I love the idea that I'm one of the most vocal critics right at may need to be criticized. They need to be transformed, and that only comes by lifting our voices and doing work to do that, so yeah. Yeah, that's A. It's a high honor. Yen Prep. For this. Going through and looking at. The stats of the number of people who died at the hands of the police in this city, and how it's higher than in cities like Chicago, it's higher than in cities like New York it's. It's something that I. Don't know that everyone is really aware of what what a kind of crisis for the citizenry of La this problem is. And it's an interesting topic to discuss. Because what I realize, is that so often in circles like? Our overlapping circles were analyzing the problem of system. And in other circles where this topic comes up, people really feel personally attacked. It turns into my uncle's a cop and is a good guy or you know there's a lot of people who sacrificed to to be in uniform whether it's in the police force, military service or whatever? And I'm curious because of your level of expertise at looking at the broken -ness of a system and the historical problems of system that have been passed down to modern day, but I think so many people aren't. Aware of and I WANNA. Get into that with you, too. How do you get people to analyze the system and what the system does to even the quote, good guys who volunteer? WHO GETS swept up in it this a huge question I think number one. We start with the people who are most directly impacted and so for black lives matter you know a lot of people think that like the term black lives matter is meant for non. Black folks to see our humanity, but it's not. It's black lives. Matter is a rallying cry. It's for black people to understand our own power and black people I. Don't think any black person I know is in any way. Duped into believing that the police are here to protect and serve US right so I think getting people to stand up getting my people to stand up I. write is hugely important. Right so there's not a whole lot of convincing that needs to be done than you know policing as we know, it hasn't always been. That means it can be changed. Right policing as we know, it is a system that somebody invented, and where people who can disrupt it, and so I think that that's the biggest part is recognizing our own power. We're talking about systems and structures and institutions, but I think for black people in regular neighborhoods like I live in the crenshaw district. Right Black People in my neighborhood. It's not we don't have to think about structures and institutions and systems in like some theoretical way you know what it means. When the current LAPD chief Michael Moore says he wants. Police on every street corner at every bus stop at every church Pew and every Barstool, and we know that's a bad thing like when you see now on crenshaw, you usually see you're starting to see like two officers per Busta. Just standing there with their hands on their bills that feels like an occupation, it does not make us feel safe, and so we don't have to explain this system to other black people, because we all feel the same thing and not to centralize us, but I think that our collective experiences with police you know, tell us in. Inform us and I think that kind of wisdom in that kind of expertise is the most valuable. Yeah Wow. I'm just I'm just I find that I sit when when I hear you speak and. Ingest that I'm like there's going to be all this air and this interview. is going to be like. Why isn't she talking? So can we walk back? I'd like to know about. How the mission as black lives matter, black lives matter La began because you have been an advocate, you are an organizer. You are professor. You are an academic and I'm a Mama and your. S Two, wonderful kids, and your face lights up when you Tom. I have so much fun when I read profiles of you and there's always like a mentioned what the kids are up to and I love it because I feel like I'm I'm getting the picture painted. But I'm curious. How this all began, because you know I became aware of you already this leader in the movement, and as an advocate, and and for people listening. We finally got to meet years ago at the La Women's March and they were like. Hey, you're going to introduce Molina. Doa and I was like what? And I remember when I was like. I was. And I remember running up to you and being like. Hey, this is crazy. I WanNa talk to you about everything that you do and figure out how to how to be there. You know supporting anything. Can I? Just run you through my remarks? Really Quick 'cause I wanNA. Make sure they're OK to you. And it was really sweet. L., you're so generous I. Just was like you know they're all these things I feel like it's really important to say and. And it is an interesting thing. As as activists in my own space and an advocate. To try to figure out how to be. A proper supporter and ally for my neighbors, and for communities of Color, and and also not to like be a basic white girl who says the wrong thing. I'm just like I. Don't know so I asked you all of the questions, and and you are so lovely and gave me the confidence to walk up on that stage, and just be like the only reason that we're here and the only reason there's been any progress has been because of black women, and if we don't start following them. The way we should have always been were stupid. I didn't use those words exactly, but that's the trip and. And, then you came up on stage. You know with a whole crew in your family. And you gave the most rousing speech. There was amazing. and. Yeah. I just. I feel like we've been teammates for a long time now so. That's that's where you and I first connected. And You are this incredible icon in the community and I'm wondering how. From the inception of black lives matter to. Speaking to seven hundred fifty thousand people in the streets of the women's March had. Is that all get started for people who don't know the story? So I. Don't think I'm an icon. I appreciate that I. You are Ma'am. I mean I'm just like even when you sit, you know expertise in this I'm not like I'm just I am just. Right I, am just I have three children and I have a million spirit children right, and I'm a community member and I'm a Mama's daughter and my grandmother's granddaughter and you know my grandfather thought I could walk on water, and so all of that is in me. And I feel I believe I know that it's I. Use a term called sacred duty, right? It's our sacred duty. To not simply sit by. As our people are oppressed and degraded and killed, and so I have a loud mouth, and my mother taught me like never be quiet, right? Never just sit there and take it right, and you know that's one of the things I really appreciate it about our meeting. Is You know I? Don't watch a LOT OF TV? Right so I I knew your name but I. Didn't really you know watch TV, right? But what I loved about. You is one the. Authenticity with which you approached me. But to that it wasn't a one time thing that it was. Well, how can we? What can I do? How can I use my platform? What what feels good in terms of what I share and I know like we have a whole bunch of friends in common and everybody you know kind of reports back on their work with you and I just think it's. Really Powerful and beautiful when people say. I feel like you've never said these words, but I feel like you've said. That it's also my sacred duty, it's my duty. You know one of the chance we use them black lives. Matter is it is our duty to fight for freedom. It is our duty to win. We must love him. Protect one another. We have nothing to lose. What are chains and I feel like? You've embraced this idea that we can't just accept the world as it's handed to us and as those who are in it for. Greed and greater power and kind of the hoarding of resources at the expense of everyone else right. They don't get to decide how the world is going to move. We get to decide how the world is going to move and so I love that you've stepped into that and you know I like the term teammates that were teammates in this work. That's so kind. Thank you really like that just that my chest feels like it's GonNa Explode. And I do. I do. Identify so deeply with that term sacred duty and I think about how the fuel I talked my friend Glennon all the time. We talk about sacred rage that like that fire in you, that refuses to be quiet in the face of injustice is sacred rage that is a fuel source that never runs out and I think we have to press toward the things that light that for us and. It is not okay whether we're talking about. The hoarding of resources are disparities in healthcare or the disparate experiences of different communities and those experiences being based solely on what those communities look like this is this is not okay. How could any of US NOT BE ENRAGED? None of us is free until all of us are free, see the the ugly intertwining of the oppression of communities of color in the oppression of women. The you know we. Even in the most conservative circles in America. You hear people. Criticizing communities around the globe that they view to be threatening, or you know that say well terrorists come from X, and it's like well. What do they have in common? They oppress poor people in women they destroy education system so that they can promote fundamentalist ideology that is dangerous and inherently patriarchal right? Hello, look in the mirror, sir. Do you not see that you're doing that here? In in ways that are unique to our own country in our own experience, and it is, it's our duty to stand for each other. Absolutely absolutely, so how does it start? HOW DOES THE STAND START IN LA? Because you were among the original group of organizers who formed black lives, matter and Back in two thousand thirteen. What is the landscape? What happens and what did your life look like at the time? Yeah, so I mean I've always been one who's not quite right. but I've also never been a real joyner like I don't like joining organizations right I always feel like the deeper you get into something more like the drama kind of unfolds, and so I just prefer to kind of move and I would be a part of different movements, but not really deep. And July thirteenth two thousand thirteen. That's the day George. Zimmerman was acquitted in the murder of Trayvon Martin. And Trayvon was not the first black boy to be killed by. A white supremacist or wannabe white supremacist, because Zimmerman's also this kind of complicated character. Right where? He's a wannabe cop. He's a wannabe neighborhood watchman. He's a wannabe white guy. He's really none of those things right, but he's kind of exhibiting like drawing power from his proximity to it right. And so. The murder of Trayvon. In many ways it's like the murder of Emmett till right Emmett till was not the first black boy to be lynched, right? But there was something special about Emmett story, and there was the power of his mother Mamie till who decided to give him an open casket funeral, and let the world see the horror that her fourteen year old son had endured right. And with Trayvon, there was something about his spirit like I. Imagine the spirit of Emmett right. That it resonated like it resonated with us and. When they would show Trayvon's face on the news. you know Barack? Obama said President Obama, said if I had a son, he looked like trayvon. And I had a son. And my son actually looks like trayvon right like not exactly but very feeling wise right like same kind of shiny face. Same sparkling is right, same innocence and also kind of budding. kind of like. A little nuttiness in my children. Just like life like life in their faces, right we'll mischief is so good for kids. Yeah, that's the word Maistre feel that makes us investigative thing that makes us challenge systems. It's the reason movements are born because we go to really have to go. Rhino? The eight year old wants to take a toy apart to figure out how to put it together could become the next great engineer or the next great. Social activist because they want to take it apart and put it back together better and in the meantime. They're frustrating their mothers right. It's like Gila Joke. I used to be a nanny, and I was like nannied for the best kids in the world, and they were also like tiny terrorists. Were at moments I was like. Where did my sweet little children? Go your evil? They come back to you because their kids right right and that's what I feel like. We got with Trayvon. He was seventeen year old child i. don't like when they call him a young man. He was a child right seventeen year old child, doing exactly what he should have been doing, and his life was stolen, and then the state gets behind Zimmerman. And says he had the right to steal the life of this boy who was ours and I remember July, thirteenth two thousand, thirteen was a Saturday. and. We were watching. We were glued to the TV and in California was becoming evening, so it means it was nighttime in. Florida, right and everybody on the news. All the newscasters are going well. The verdict second come in today. It probably won't come until Monday. And so I left the House I went to Carmax was trying to get a new car because my family was getting bigger. And I. Remember going into Carmax and almost as soon as I got there. My brother called, and he goes where you at tell him and he goes. We'll sit down could not go like it. And he said he got off in their giving him his gun back. And like even when I don't know if it's like the events of the last week, but even when? When I hear that second part it the gut. They're giving him his gun back. Just like hit me and I. Felt this fog kind of overtake me and. Grabbed my kids get them in the car and I go home. We didn't buy car. And at the time, my son was three. And you know my other kids are a little older and I'm getting them all together and I did what like mothers do a my single mom so I cook? Dinner bathed. My son put them all to bed. And then I found somebody to sit with them, and I had these other moms come over to my house, and we Kinda Sat, and we talked and decided to go out, and there's a park in the crenshaw district of Los Angeles, Lamarque Park, which is like. The Cultural Center of Black La. Terribly and I hope we can get to this. They've put up a fence around it now, so you can't get into the park anymore, but at all at all. Even during the day Nope so that I. Think has a lot to do with the gender the neighborhood it's undergoing gentrification and there were helpless folks who slept in the park. So they're trying to keep the House list folks out, but I also think about like black lives. Matter was birthed there right like every protest. You can think of began in that park, so we didn't need a tweet. We didn't need a text. We need nobody to call us. We knew where black people were going. We go there for a rage, but we also go there. That's where we went to celebrate the election of Barack, Obama right, and so they fenced off the park, but on July thirteenth two thousand thirteen. The park was open and we knew that's where to go. and. That's where we went. And there were you know easily a thousand people milling around in the park, some crying some upset some giving like impromptu speeches and always tell people like who were becoming activists the first investment. You need to make in a bullhorn, right? There's a power that comes whoever has the bullhorn is to dictate the action? And, so I had the boomer and I remember there was this young sister there who I was talking to in this was her first time kind of coming out. And she said to me 'cause. We were all talking to each other wall. I don't want to be in this park in me and the other moms or like. What do you want to do? And she said why. I WanNa March, so grab the bullhorn and I go we all March. And so everybody starts coming together, and then there's kind of this back and forth. which I think is really important. Where some people were trying to March South Down Crenshaw South it gets blacker and poorer right. You Go north. You actually start marching towards Wilshire right with a wider and more affluent humor turned into Hancock Park right exactly and so I'm like we are not marching south because if you think about like what happened in ninety two. They don't care if you march. Right, that's. Whatever right? So I remember yelling on the Bullhorn I, felt like we were running for freedom, I was like go north right, and so we all start marching north of crenshaw. and. We were kind of in the streets like that intuitively for about three days, and on the third day of protests. We had this group like we just call it like black community organizers space. We're about maybe fifteen of us. One of them was Patrisse cullors and I was in that space as well and so we have become really. Friends and comrades that space. And Patrice have been in conversation with the Lisa Garza. Who I didn't know at that time and open committee and Alesia hit. Put this letter online, and she signed it black lives matter, and so while we were doing this intuitive work, they were talking about how to build a movement, not a moment. So on the third day of protests I remember exactly where I was I. was it was the first freeway shutdown of the black lives matter era right? So were marching north of crenshaw. These boys probably younger than Trayvon. Decided we basically adopted a philosophy. This is why than northern pattern was important of disrupting spaces of white effluents right, so we're not going to disrupt south La we're going to disrupt the spaces that we see is responsible for the murder of by, and so there were these boys, and I remember seeing their eyes Dart back and forth to each other, and they launched onto the off ramp of the ten freeway, and all these thousands of people find them right. And my oldest daughter, who's a hell of organizer in our own right. She was eight at the time. She's Maybe, she was nine. She's fifteen now, so we're six years old, so she must have been nine. She goes come on Mama. Let's get on the freeway. And I have like my three year old son in a Stroller, and I'm a courageous mom, but I'm not crazy. Right so I'm like we ain't getting on the freeway, and so we stood at the overpass and I took some pictures at wound up going viral. And right after I took the pictures I get this text. And it originated with Patrice and it said to meet. It said he didn't nine PM at Saint Elmo's village right, which is this black artists community, and so we did, and it was the third night, and we gathered in this beautiful artists village that is set up like an African village with this space in the centre, and we circled up in there were about thirty of us, including some of the MOMMAS including a bunch of my students who had called out into the streets, and then a bunch of Patrice is beautiful artists and organizers friends. And we committed to building a movement, not a moment now at the time. We didn't know what that Mitts. But it was a commitment that we may like our souls, and it felt like because we were under the you know dark, and the stars and imagine the moon was full I. Don't know that for sure, but in my memory. It feels like it right. Like also felt you felt this ancestral presence, right? And that was the birth of black lives matter and from that day forward we continue to organize. I think. It took US two or three days to. Organize the first planned march of black lives matter which we did in beverly. Hills we marched down Wilshire from last year and again Wilshire all the way down to Rodeo and Wilshire and those folks thought they were like what's happening like. In fact, they were uttering those words. What's going on? We. Shutdown that pretty woman mall and did a lot of work in that, was it? WAS BIRTH OF IT! When you talk about. This. Intuitive knowing that you have to go north, you have to disrupt these affluent white spaces to make a statement because it's not the community south on crenshaw. It's not the community that is suffering from. The death of their sons at greater numbers than the communities you disrupt it that needed to be disrupted. I know that there will be some people who. Hear this and wonder what that means. Who say you know some people who wonder what that means? Who might say you know? There were people driving down Wilshire that day going what's going on like? Tell us what's happening. Who would assume I have nothing to do with that? You know I don't support what happened with Trayvon's killing. I don't think that George Zimmerman should have been given his gun back. How how to people who might not understand what you mean by that you? Educate. On. Disrupting that system and how that system even a community on again Wilshire how their system is supporting the system that let George Zimmerman off. Yeah. So a couple of things one most of you are responsible right if we think about like the majority of white people voted for trump right. Yeah, so you're responsible. All of this that's going on is your fault, right and so there is a direct responsibility right, but even if you go well I didn't vote for trump right. I give money to black lives. Matter Right. They're still a responsibility while one. There is a the weight of blackness in this country is not something that can just be born by black people right so. The philosophy of disrupting white affluent spaces is about the fact that. I say I'm not scared of anything and I'm not right, but I'll say that I'm. Very anxious. About my son and specifically my son, but I you know I, I'm concerned for all my children, but specifically my son, who's now nine who I'm starting to see his shoulders get broad. Right and he was talking to me today and I was like his voice is a little deeper like he's not going through puberty yet, but he's growing into. He's not a baby. Right and I feel like as he continues to grow. The target on his back gets bigger. And I don't know white moms who feel that about their sons, and so it can't just be a weight that I carry right i. need you to care as much as I care. And so you will never know what it's like to be a black mom. However. As, long as these kinds of justices happen in our communities, you don't get to just go in quietly Brunch, right? You don't get to just go to Disneyland or go to the Grove. We liked disrupting the grove. Home or you know, have your meal quietly and say. I'm not responsible because. You are responsible, and you know part of what they're experiencing. Is a white privilege that just comes from Whiteness. Even if you didn't ask for it right and so it becomes your responsibility. I think who said. WHO said that Jill Libra right. When she said. It's white people and specifically. She talked about white suburban MOMS right. To It's not just black people's responsibility to handle racism Ryan. It's your responsibility. You built this racist system right and if you didn't personally so what you're still benefiting from it, and I think that the benefit and this idea that you can divest from what's personal, and what isn't especially for white people is. Dangerous and needs to be analyzed. Because I loved what Gillibrand said, she just got frank, and she said look I'm not saying you're lives haven't been hard. If you live in one of those rural communities that has lost its hospital, whose jobs have shutdown whether it's the steel plant or the coal, mine or whatever those people are struggling, no question in need help. But none of their struggle is because of the color of their skin right, it is not one of the things that has made their life harder. It is not one of the things that makes mom's afraid to send their sons to school. It is not one of the things that means that a black boy buying a BB gun at Walmart gets shot in the back by police officer and a white boy with an. An assault rifle at Walmart. Who Murders Twenty people gets taken peacefully. This is this is crazy, and and these are just facts, and I think if we can start to look at the facts and not have this like weird base reaction of like a good person. I have nothing to do with that. It's like if your if that's your response. There's something in you that you're worried about, or you have some sort of. Fear that you are quote, unquote worse than you claim to be or whatever and one of the things when we talk about. The beneficiaries of the system that I would love to unpack with you is the generational inheritance system because I think and I blame the degradation of our education system for a lot of this you know while we were trying to make progress with civil rights and the women's rights movement and you know Gloria and Dorothy were like speaking and marching and doing all the things. The GOP has been going after the education system for a long time. They've taken civics out of schools. They've let schools become religious and teach you know sex ED. That isn't based on fact. I mean things that are dangerous to the public health of a population and we lose our history. We make the same mistakes and so. For me diving into what is historical inheritance look like what wealth was allowed to be created for white people as landowners people who were able to get mortgages. Where're mortgage lenders redlining? What communities couldn't be lent to? What after you know the great migration and the populace? The populations of black people moving further into the north where white people ignorantly think we'll. Then they were just free. It's like no, they weren't. They were pushed into ghettos. They were denied any sort of services and sort of healthcare, and he sort of safety long after what we consider freedom. To mean. And when you look at the generational denial of wealth versus the generational support of wealth creation, and when you look at that generational inheritance of the energy of the police system, which I've learned through conversation, most people who look like me don't know that the police system literally comes from the system of slave catchers. Right people don't know that slave catchers became police and that and that horrific part of American history laid the pattern for a modern system that people go well. That's not possible, but there's generational behavior in that system. It is proven I. don't care. What of the line you fall on here. The data proves it's dangerous for communities of color. Color to have interactions with the police right? In fact, the data says if you WANNA keep black people safe from police violence. The most important thing you can do is to limit the interactions. It's the number of interactions. It's not implicit bias training. It's not a community policing. It's not the diversity of the officers, and it's black. People just should not have interactions with the police, and that's that we stay safe from them, and it's interesting to me. The diversity of officers doesn't affect the outcomes for communities of color right even officers of color dangerous to communities of color. What do we do with all this? How do we unpack some of this generational? Reality. Educate people on how to change the modern day system right well. I think it's one really important that we have the conversation about. Generational inheritance right and. I always feel like so by training them a political scientists right, so Mike these debates and all this stuff is like great for me. I! Love Tuning into the stuff. But I'm having problems keeping up with twenty candidates right? And At first I was going. Get these people off the stage orders people right. But this is the first time ever that. I've had candidates who really inspired me right? I've had can't I've heard candidates who are talking about things that are really important right, not just the nuances of a healthcare system which I believe in Medicare for all right. But I don't want to spend all the time talking about how that's GonNa work right there. Also I think it's important that Marianne Williamson is on that stage, and that she was courageous enough to bring up what reparations look. She referred to it as a debt that is owed to black people debt that is owed, and she's not the first person who said this. My dissertation was almost on reparations, but if we think about organizations like Cobra and people like Randall. Robinson and I know more recently, people are looking at tiny. He see coaches work. You know they've been saying that. In fact, Randall. Robinson's book is called the debt right? I think it's really important that we have this conversation, and if we think about, it's not just individual, so this is where a Lotta White folks get nervous right because they think you gonna come, take my stuff and I. Don't know if you custom here, but I want to do all the talk out, so they think you. They say they're gonNA come take our shit. Right That's not what it's about right. It's not just about you as an individual. Although you do owe a did right individually right? You owe a debt, and so we always say in terms of the Black Freedom Movement. Everybody needs to be involved in. They need to be giving their voice their body in their resources. You do some resource right, and so there is an individual responsibility, but the bigger responsibility is that there are in tiger industries that are built on the backs of my ancestors. We think about the insurance industry right thing about. About why do you think companies are called state, farm and farmers right? What is that? They were ensuring slave owners for the runaways or deaths of their property, their chattel, right and so state farm I'll know what it's worth, but it's a multibillion dollar company. They owe us right. This country owes us. This country is built on stolen land of indigenous people in stolen Labor of black people. They Alwa- so when Marianne Williamson, says you know at least two hundred to five hundred billion dollars in the debt is really in the trillions, right? That's a conversation that we need to have and more than conversation. It's something that we need to be pushing for. Because it is like she said in like Randall Robinson, said before her a that's owed well, and and when you start to look at it as denial of equitable resource right, it would be the same as if. Today. I gotTa Job Same. Job Qualifications and amount of work as as this guy over here, so it's me and it's the guy in over the next twenty years. I'm held back. I'm denied raises denied promotions and denied the same health benefits, and this guy gets every single benefit promotion bigger package bonus and we've done. We've done this work yet. I'm here and he's advanced to here. And he's created wealth for his family and I've been unable to create any right, and it's that same spread in a much more horrifically. Traumatic Way and for generations four. Right the for these communities, and that is something that I think a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around and people I hear 'cause you know i. read the good and the bad online because I need to understand where everyone's coming from as a bit of a mature social scientists. And people who don't get reparations conversation, say well we. We have nothing to do with what happened two hundred years ago and it's like you're missing the point that that there have been these bell curves that have come out of what happened, and we've all ignorantly or consciously supported them and supported the ramifications, and we've got to do something about it. We've gotta even out the system in some way to give people a fair shake a fighting chance and you know when Marianne says two to five hundred billion on Mike what we just gave a six hundred billion dollar surplus to the military right. So we have the money you're just telling me. We don't have it for people, or we don't have it for healthcare. We don't elect preschool. For communities are. We don't have it for you. We have it, it's it's about what we're investing in. And why aren't we investing any child other right well I think also that was a great explanation, especially as related to how defacto slavery continued after eighteen sixty five right, but if we think about from sixteen nineteen to eighteen, sixty five, and was happening with the wholesale theft of black labor, right and black people right and and. Human beings right, and what that means economically is. It's like you hook generations of wealth. It's like if you're a great. Let's say was your great great great great grandparents, right? They took my great great great great grandparents stuff. They came in and robbed their house. Right may took everything that they had. And, then they died, but they passed on everything that they hit to your great great great grandparents. And then they built the up, even more stole my great great great grandparents, and then they pass that on to your great great grandparents. Yes, and then eventually you inherited. And you say I had nothing to do with it. No, but you still got my staff right and how it plays out now. And this is how we can get to the gentrification P. Right is so I have I I live in the crenshaw district, which at the time I moved into my neighborhood was. About eighty to eighty five percent. My neighborhood is now about. Sixty percent black. And so. These white folks moving in our home prices now I'm telling way too much of my business, but when I bought it I was married at the time. Two of us with college degrees and fairly good jobs were spent every penny we had to buy the House that was at the time three hundred thousand dollars, right. That's all we got. We can't spend more than three hundred thousand dollars, but we're relatively middle class black people who did that and bought this house for three hundred thousand dollars. The houses in my neighborhood are now going from million and a half. And I'm going. There is no way even if I were still married I would not be able to buy this house right. But the white people who were moving in and everybody who's moving in white. They're not rich white people so like we got a social worker and a teacher who just moved in down the street Ryan. How did you get that house? Right and I don't ask them that way right, but as our children play together, there's conversations about. The father gets A. He gets an actual allowance. He's in his forties. He gets allowance from his father. A bunch of these folks are getting these you know help with a down payment. Right a thousand dollars a month from some relatives. Somebody died and left them something. My family doesn't have that. And so this is how we see kind of this wealth disparity. Play out the theft of black wealth. Play out in terms of Gentrification, and I think so many people when they think about wealth or inherited wealth assume that you have to be a rockefeller to be inheriting wealth, and it's like that isn't what the conversation is what you're talking about when a family can offer downpayment support to their kids who are in their thirties or forties. That is afforded by this generational experience that was offered to one community and stolen from another absolutely, and we're not saying that you shouldn't take down payment. Help from your. No, but it's it should have been Fairness is that we all have what our for families earned. Yes and I think it's really important to de. Personalize the reality of it in a way. Because I. Don't get offended. I don't feel attacked that two plus two equals four. I'm not like well, said to who you know, and and so many people who look like me in this conversation are like that, but that just this is. They get so upset and it's like. Don't be upset. Learn. We have to learn our history. The good, the bad and the ugly, and we have to figure out how to build a better system, because by the way the system that has better for you is also going. Going to be better for me, episode white supremacy doesn't have anything for me. Ether It has nothing for me. I watched sixty three percent of white women in America vote for Donald Trump and I was like you just voted for the husband. You hate for the Guy, who raped you in college for the guy who assaulted you in the workplace for that piece of Shit that you go to work with every day? Who Says Disgusting Shit You about your ass? You just voted for a man who you hate. Because he feels familiar to you, For what to uphold the the reality of your dad or some other guy in your life. Who told you he'd take care of you or that? You deserved something, or I don't understand like you voted so deeply against your own interests, and look I know that there was help I know that there was. Bought Farms running and Russian interference and stoking of division, and you know now we have the data that proves that that the. The people stoking that division online we're doing so from the extremes of both sides. They were playing super, conservative and Super Liberal, just trying to pull us all apart. So when I come from my highest self, I'm like I really feel for people and I want them to do better and when I'm like in the trenches, I'm just like. Thinking right, you know and and I. Really think it's important for us for white people for White women especially. To not feel attacked when asked to look in the mirror, but to go. That's really interesting. I can see this thing. I can see regardless of how complicated my life is. What I've been through trauma. I carry the assault I survived that whatever 'cause everybody's had at heart and to say, and they're still all this stuff that exists in society. That has my back. In a way that other people aren't held, but what quote? Unquote has back actually still aiming to destroy me. Yeah, and if we go back to like the system, Chattel Slavery, the challenge I think it's being issued is don't be the mistress. Don't be the mistress of the house right so like a lot of white women WANNA again this its proximity to power right say. I'm better off being my husband's wife Ryan, and so I'm not gonNA, dismantle systems of oppression. But you're also being oppressed. And so in order to ever be free, you know. Maybe you get to wear the fancy dressing. You don't have to be the one to pick the cut right. But you're not free now. You're not free until you get up from the pedestal. And say I'm disrupting I'm turning over this whole shit, and so that's what we want. White women do I also think that point about. White supremacy having nothing for you. I think that's right like. So what freedom looks like, and I'm not a white woman, so I can't really say. But what I imagined. Freedom looks like for white women now is. Not Having to I think part of that kind of white people in white women working themselves up into kind of this. Guilt Laden. Protective space right where they're saying well. It wasn't me right. is about not being able to imagine more right so Tony Morrison past this morning, right? And my favorite thing that she said is dream before you think. Dream before you think. And I think that as we. Freedom has to be an imagining. It has to be a dream right and we have to think about our dream of out right what it would feel like. To walk down the street. And not have people like me. Women like me. Looking at you! and. I'M GONNA. Be Straight up like the white women who are pushing a stroller walking their dogs in my neighborhood, I can't stand now personally. I might like them, but when I see them and I don't know them. I'm angry. Because with that comes phone calls on my kids with that comes police protection with that comes even you bring your dog and I? Like dogs, but I don't want your dog all up on my kids because your dog is not a person, right? Your dog doesn't get to take up more space on the sidewalk than my children and you were assuring me trying to shore me. Oh, he's. He's a good dog. You don't get to do that and so I'm saying all that to say. I can guess. That freedom for white women. Means being able to walk through whatever neighborhood you moved to with your dog in your stroller, because there's another nothing fundamentally wrong with the dog and stroller. Right without me feeling like I wish you weren't invading my space I. Wish you weren't here, right? Not In the same way. Kelly Light Oh Hernandez I. Hope you've read her book but she. She has quotas her book convert people listening Oh city of inmates, but a lot of her work looks at the history of settler colonialism in this country and in city of an inmate's. She talks about and I feel like especially with these mass shootings, right? That's the book. Everyone needs to read because she talks about the strategy of elimination. Right white supremacist, patriarchal strategy of elimination colonial strategy of elimination. And so, when I say you know I, wish these white dog walkers weren't in my neighborhood. Right except the ones that are now my friends. But again ca I can just say that's the difference between a system in an individual right system you are witnessing. An encroachment in felt like a safe space, and that feels like a signification oppression is coming for you in your safe space, and every one of those women who you know you're like. Oh, she's cool right and that's the difference. Herlin coral, right, but I, you have. I don't. I don't not feel like we're cool or we're friends. When I talk about Whiteness, we have to be able to separate the two. You have to thank you for being vulnerable enough right now to say because a lot of people wouldn't say like. Yeah, this thing that's happening in my neighborhood bugs me. But I think it's so important to be able to say. This is the thing that is triggering, and this is what it leads to, and let's talk about what colonization has always looked, and also I really like my neighbors, both things can be true at the same time and I. Think people who are afraid of having these conversations think it's because they're gonNA. Have to pick a side, or it's going to turn into a war or they're gonNA feel attacked or like you said like you're coming for my shit or like. You're coming for me that, isn't it right? We have to almost academically be willing to look at the. We have to look at the social experiment. We have to look at the system and figure out how to make better so I really appreciate you sharing that. Thank you, thank you. Yeah! Yeah, and so yeah, that that sums it up, but that feeling sums it up and if I can offer something because as I'm hearing, you tell that story I'm going Oh right. What's interesting is I've never been in any neighborhood I've ever lived in whether. It's like all over Los Angeles whether it was living at down at USC and being down in you know off of crenshaw whether it was living in the south lived all I lived in North Carolina lived in Chicago. I've never been in a place where. I felt like somebody on the sidewalk. Wasn't safe, so I've always felt safe, so I've always been the one out walking the dog like what's up neighbor like 'cause. It's the neighborhood right, but that is where my privilege comes in where someone on the sidewalk has never posed a threat to me. Someone on the sidewalk has never been a person who's GonNa. Call the police on my for this. For the sake of this argument, my hypothetical children like. And so. That's not a thing I've ever had to think about right, but what I will say is since thirteen since these conversations have come to the forefront since I have tried to sit at the feet of women like you in my community and learn how to be a better. Community member. I'm very conscientious when I'm out on a walk when I'm out anywhere I am so conscious of what my interactions look like with people of Color in my community. I no longer have the privilege of being the aloof person who's like on my phone doesn't make eye contact with people. Because I now know from conversations like this. A girlfriend of mine lives in Venice and has lived there for ten years. We were talking about the way. Venice is really gentrified, and she said you know the difference in our experience is that you could walk down? Abbott Kennedy goes to Joe, Lena takeout and get a coffee in the morning, and if nobody looked at you, nobody would look at you and you'd be like. Everybody's tired. She's like, but if I walked Tanovic Kennedy, go to GTE to get a coffee and none of the twelve people I pass makes eye. Eye contact with me, I think is this because I'm tired or is this? Because I'm a black woman right? And when she said that's me. I was like Holy Shit right there are there are just circumstances the there are hoops you jump through in your body that I never will understand so it is my duty to learn, and to make sure that I'm very conscientious of WHO's around me, and how I am either ignorantly isolating or consciously welcoming. I keep playing with the idea, so one of my one of my best friends wait. One of my best friends, molly, we always play around about you know how to address things and the reason we're so tight is because I can just talk about you know Shit. And I say you know what we should write. I should write or I should break something about like. How to how to not be gentrifying right like just basic shit like? When I was walking with my kids the other day in the neighborhood there was this white guy this time. It was a white guy with a dog. And he looked me in the eye and said hey, how you doing. And me and my kids all went. Like it was I'm sure he heard. US Gasp and I'm like that's how to be a white. Not Gender Fire Right. I didn't win, but he saw us he he also pulled his dog off of the sidewalk, so it didn't take up space for my children and I thought that was like I'm like he teach class needs to teach a class. I think the point I was going to make hit lost track of where I was going with this gentrification piece his around the settler colonialism stuff that Kelly writes about in city of inmates right. That When I say I wish we just had our own space I I missed the eighty five percent black neighborhood, right? It's about establishing what you call it like an holding onto what you call safe-space right a space where I know none of my like a remember when I first moved in the teenagers across the street were happen the fence. And my natural instinct was to go. Hey, what you doing. Why are you happy offense, right? Somebody, else's instinct would be to call the police because young black men are probably breaking into a house, right. They turned out to be I. had just moved in didn't know the kids that live there. And they had locked themselves out right, so it feels safe to me because I know that my kids when they're happened the fence or going in the back door doing whatever the black neighbors are going to go. Do you live there and ninety nine point nine percent of the time? They know them, so they'll. Are you locked out? Want me to call your Mama. You know something like that so. That's what we're trying to establish but win. gentrify here's move into our neighborhood. I have one neighbor who I'm tight with now. WHO said I remember driving up here? And I drive down Washington and look down the street and I'd say. That's totally undiscovered neighborhood. Yet. And I'm just by WHO this. Yes, you Christopher, Columbus like what does that mean? We lived here? What are you talking about undiscovered? And so this whole idea of manifest destiny like contemporary manifest destiny? Gentrification is really like urban colonialism. Right is also entrenched in the settlers. Colonial idea that I think is tied back I'm a little disturbed about the conversations as they're unfolding, and I hope that we can disrupt them somehow. Around these mass murders, the acts of white supremacists, terrorism and them. Boiling it down two. Oh, it's just a overwhelming sense of hate. No they're not driven by hate. They're driven by greed and entitlement, and the idea that white people own this country. If you read what they're now calling the screed by the El Paso Murderer Ryan. He quotes trump over and over and over again he as trump over and over and over again, but he also says now I know you're going to say that. I'm hypocritical because when I talk about the invasion. What do native read the whole thing? What do native Americans would say that about Europeans, but I've learned my lesson from native Americans. You can allow an I. Don't WanNa be too much. But his whole idea, what he's driven by is articulated. As settlers colonial ideals. He's articulate. He's telling you. I have a settler colonial philosophy, and that's what drove him to murder. All of those twenty two people were now did right, and so it's really important that we understand that when we talk about white supremacy and white supremacist violence, it's not just a matter of thinking or feeling in. This is what you're kind of getting to. It's not just about the individual. It's about the system, so if we're in a system that's a settler colonial system. It's built on stolen stolen labor. It's about examining that system and figuring out how to transform things in such a way that fairness and safety and peace and love, and all of the things that we all want an there so. To I've goosebumps literally like running down my legs right now. And when we think about that settler, colonial mentality again, the Intrinsic Connection between the impression of people of Color, and how it was rooted in the oppression of indigenous people here in America by in the Columbus, era is so deeply tied to the oppression of women. You can read Columbus's writing. And he talks he talks openly about his shock that the native women worked willing to be taken as sex slaves. The idea that they have the rights to the bodies of humans and the rights to the bodies of women. You know the the reason that I think the scarcity mentality, and and the and the politics of that proximal power to supremacy really got to you, I mean look. Let's be roads gotten to white women for a long time, but really got to way. Women in the trump election is because he was praying on this notion that you're about to have less. You're about to lose your, and it's like well. We've always lost at the hands of those men. You are the you are the reason that one in four women is sexually assaulted by the time. She's twenty two I. Don't know a single woman who doesn't have a story I don't need not a single woman in my life is without a story of an assault. None and many too many to count. I can't name every and then what happens is we talk about it on a scale well? That guy wasn't so bad, but this one right and it's like no, it's all bad right you know, so. It used to be the norm to go to a party and get your ass grabbed. Yeah, that was like you knew you were going to get your ass quick. And you were told to take it as a compliment. And so. If we want to undo any oppression. We have to undo all oppression right one of the things that I have been so fascinated. By in our conversations is your. Educating me on the difference between investing in Police Services and investing in citywide policy reform, which would take funding. which is oddly given to the police to do things that aren't even their job, and that would give funding more to social workers more to social programs more more funding that would actually take the if we want to call it the the burden of too much work off of the police, force or just. Stop making them responsible for things they shouldn't be responsible for and actually get into community, safety and protection I would love you to speak to that a little bit because I think this stuff is really fascinating, and I think that the listeners would be really wowed by. So I think it's part of again dreaming before you think right, dreaming allows us to kind of. See a vision that's not tied to the what is, but what can be right and so. Everybody wants to live in a safe community. You know we've talked a lot about me. Being a mom, we wanna live in a safe community. We WanNA. Make sure our children can walk home safely, right. And as a black mother I know my children are less safe when there's police around. So, what does a system of public safety look like? And I remember when I first moved to Los Angeles. I lived in Lamar, Park area and I didn't know what was happening, but every morning the old people would come out and sit on the porch. And as I lived, there s started having conversations with them like I was like Oh. Everybody must be from Louisiana, 'cause, Louisiana and Texas right we all. My grandparents sat on the porch, but not that early. And as I was having conversations with folks, they had created a system in the neighborhood where they would come out from seven to eight to watch the children walk to school. And that's public safety, right? That's public safety in the sense that they knew the children right. If the children I remember, some of the kids getting told up getting called to the porch for cussing right as they were walking. I want that for my children. Would I don't want? Is Men with guns standing on corners right I? Want the GRANDMAS and grandpas on the porch. Watching my children to school safely and so if we think about what we've invested in. What, most major cities have invested in spent our tax dollars on their overspending on police Oh our city's general fund. We now spend fifty three percent of our city's General Fund on LAPD so all money in the General Fund in all of Los Angeles fifty three percent of mets, not including. You know that's not public safety overall. That's not fire, right. That's not. STRAIGHT UP LAPD fifty three percent, and it doesn't include the contracts. The LAPD gets with like the parks. Right? Who Give them a share of their budget to write? Fifty three percent. Why would we be spending fifty three percent of our city's General Fund on police? When we know that police actually don't make community safe, there are studies that say in fact. Let me give a real good example, so there was a brother named Gregorio Mack, who was killed on April tenth two, thousand eighteen. He was inside the Baldwin. Hills Crenshaw Ma. which is the Black Mall in La, right? In about five o'clock in the afternoon, he was seen inside the mall, talking to himself, and he had a kitchen knife which let me lift up for listeners. It is not illegal to have a kitchen knife. In fact, he was standing in front of Tj Max where they sell kitchen knives right and so it wasn't illegal to have the kitchen knife. He was standing there, clearly dealing with some kind of mental health issue, right? security who we've talked to in the mall said they didn't see him as dangerous. They just wanted him to leave the mall because people were uncomfortable with him there right, but he wasn't attacking anybody threatening anybody. Somebody called nine one one. The, police come back bounding up the escalators in. This is a quote from one of the patrons with every gun blazing. And they murder Gra Sharia in the middle of the mall. They! Don't even bother to clear the mall first. And, then after they shot him, and he was on the ground, they stood over him and shot him more. I'm lifting that up. Because someone who is having a mental health break. Should not have the police called on. If we thought about the best use of city resources. What if we had a mental health team? Were when somebody is having a mental health, it's a health issue. They could be dispatched. They could figure out. How do I talk him down right? They could figure out. What is he on medication? Did he take his medication? Who are his loved ones, right? Who can we call in to give him support right? And I think I know that there. Cities like Jackson Mississippi cities like Newark New Jersey. To explore reallocating public dollars to investing them in you know more mental health providers to investing them, and you know park dolny police in the parks. They need more youth workers in the parks right. They're investing them in intervention prevention work, so even things that we think of traditionally is crime. Right doesn't have to be something that's addressed in the same kind of with the same kind of occupational style and style of confrontation. That police engaged that these are people with the mayor in Newark is done whereas Baraka is hire people. Many of them formerly incarcerated who are from the neighborhoods, and when something goes down in the neighborhood, they go and have conversations with people who respect that. And, so we need to be willing to engage in radical imaginings in dreaming before thinking and envisioning a world that actually creates safety, not just policing right. There's an interesting insight for me here because when I don't. Lump the people in with the system. And I have an interesting purview believe into policing because I worked. On a police show for almost five years of my life. You know I I. Spent a lot of time entrenched in that community and I asked the officers who I was close to and one of whom I am still close to who I talked to you about a lot of this stuff. We a lot of deep conversations about their opinions on this. And their willingness to say Oh, no, no, the system is broken We love our brothers. We love our community. We die for each other. But something is changing, and it's affecting everybody and when I ask. Why does this like I? Show a video of liquidity McDonald I show a video of any of these body cam footage dash cams that come out eventually, because of course they don't give them to us right away. And I say why does it become like this and they talk about the way they're. Training has become increasingly militarized and how they're not trained to defuse situations anymore. They're trained at the moment. A hand is raised and there's something in it. They're trained to shoot and you're trained to shoot to kill, not just you would. This is a problem. And they're not encouraged or required to go for mental health. CHECK INS or therapy you you are. You are effectively building a bomb. You are putting a person in a hyper realised state telling them that every single person who they encounter is going to try to kill them, and if they do, they have to try to them first. But what does it really mean to try to be killed like? The adrenaline is crazy. You can't hear it's hard to see. And if one of those officers discharges a weapon. And Kill someone. They have no mental health requirements to process what that means. It gets glazed over and then they. They're told they did a good job. And then we wonder why it happens again. And I. I have listened to some of these guys. Tell me what toll taken on them. Yet the system remains the same in the system is killing people, and it makes me feel the same way when I say like white supremacy has nothing for me as a white woman. I have seen. How the system doesn't have anything good for the people who are even a part of it and I see the devastation that it reeks across communities. Across the country. And so I hope. That being able to. Solely focus on the problem of the system. Can Inspire all of us to try to make it better can inspire us to say yeah I want more of my city dollars going to social work programs. Going to you know community uplift forces. Going it doesn't need to be this. Yeah and I think part of when we say this right when we say dream before you think are when we say radical imagination. People go. Yeah, but how do you get to that? And it feels like this big overwhelming task, right? But really all we're talking about is a budgeting process. Just move. Some money is not that hard to move some money, right? We have cities that are moving the money. Move some money. Also! You know I define myself as an abolitionist, right and people go. What does that mean? What are we this woman? But abolition ISM doesn't just mean tearing down systems that are oppressive right so most people associate abolitionists with the end of slavery, right abolishing slavery. I believe in the abolition of prisons and police. That doesn't mean I. Don't believe in public safety and it doesn't mean that you know I. Don't prioritize that, right. I just think it can look very different. And I think that also a lot of times as abolitionists, we only think about the tearing down our what's illuminated is tearing down right, so we highlight the protests and. We they wanna Polish the police, yes, and. We WanNA build. Community safety teams. We want to build the. Maybe you could be the grandma brigade, right. And it's not that hard to do, and so when you think about it like. Those, grandparents were doing it. That was abolitionist work, and you didn't have stuff happening in the neighborhood, and so the police weren't there. Well, they were, but they they were kind of kept it bay right, and so we can. It's not as overwhelming of task as it seems. It's totally doable, right? Mean if they did abolish slavery, slavery did Chattel Slavery came to an end? If the people before us were able to do that, then it should be a relatively easy feat to save policing as we know, it should no longer exist. Let's establish a system of public safety and work towards it and. See it. Come to fruition, not a hundred years from now I'm talking in the near future in my lifetime. Something I like to ask me pull at the beginning. We just went. Right in and I skipped one of my favorite questions, but it but I'm thinking about it now. Thinking historically. I. Sit across from so many people who I'm so in awe of and I'm so in awe of where you are in this moment in your life, and then i. go where you like this when you were little, I'm fascinating. People were as kids and and. who were you as a kid, were you? Were you always wise? Were you always? So sensitive where like who is little Malina so? Yes I was always like this. I don't know that I would call myself wise now I. I hear so. I was always like this always had a big mouth right I always taught by my mom and my grandpa specially that I could do anything you know. and. It's. Like I feel like we've spent a lot of time on the heaviness of this work and. But I always found. This like using my voice and speaking up for whatever fun like it's fun like I think so, too. It gives me life like. You don't have to sit there and listen to this full talking about crazy stuff on. How the Hell is Donald. Trump gone call Elijah Cummings racist right. How long and like we don't have to sit here and listen to it and like just hear it one. We need to talk about how ridiculous this shit is and I know that we shouldn't be laughing at it, but it's. It's like bizarro world now it's truly crazy. Yes, like a person looking at you and saying the sky is yellow and you're like the sky is blue and they go. Are you blind? It's yellow and you're like. What where where do where are we? Crazy to where you're like, hello. There are we in the same dimension like what's happening right right so I. Don't know I think I grew up. Just feeling like I could always use my voice. Always feeling like I was deeply loved, and sometimes I talk about mothering. and I remember talking with this group. Young MOMS. And I said in one of them came up to me recently and I said to them. None of this shit! Is that deep? And they were like what and I was like. Even that we're having having this forum on mothering and there was this one. I said I stress myself out because I sent my son to school, and he left his lunch bag in the car. And then he called me from school like Mama. Bring me, but I couldn't get back to the school to bring him his lunch, right. And, then I had to remember. School only goes from eight to three. You are not going to starve between three. When you get home. You can have a peanut butter and Jelly Sandwich right like. None of it's that deep right like. We take on a lot of responsibility and act like everything is so deep, but I think that how I was raised in how I try to live is just. Pouring love into what I care about firstly my children, but also my community, the world that I live in poor, the love in and Anna make mistakes like my son left his at inland. Look back to see. Did he get his lunch right? So part of it was on and not look back, but still what just keep it moving and you're gonNA make a MISSTEP, and sometimes people are GonNa get mad at you, but so so what just keep it moving and live in? Love and living your purpose and I, think my mom and my Grandpa taught me a lot about that, and was it like growing up with them because you were you were in east? Oakland in the seventies right? What's said I'm twenty nine. What's the? have been for long. What's the? What's the vibe like what what is community like? And what's your family like? my community was complicated, but my like the first word I wanted to use. Was it was? Magical an amazing and I'm saying that someone who witnessed. I don't even know how many of my friends get murdered. Right? WHO experienced like? We found the body in the dumpster. We're little kids right like. Grew up I came of age during the height of the crack cocaine epidemic in East Oakland where it was really hitting heart. And If I were to give the I word. It was magical. It was amazing it was. A community filled with love. My grandpa you stood like. Sit on the front porch all day long and we come home from school and sit with him on his front porch and eat watermelon. I know that's a terrible thing to say as a black person, but watermelon is delicious. I don't care if it's a stereotype, it's also. Like that's California, we're we have produce. We're very lucky, yes. would. Open a watermelon. And he's from Louisiana. So he would slice open a watermelon and we eat them. Like out of a it would be a bowl, right? You turn it into a bowl and you just. With. The whole, sit there and we. He would tell me stories, and it was amazing. My mother, who was a single mom and a teacher. She would always come home from school late and she had like old Volvo station wagon, and it hit the black, and you could hear it like a black away. And all the kids in the neighborhood we lived in a almost all black neighborhood would come running down the street and sit on our front porch. And they yell. It's time for school and my mom would sit on that porch with them until the sun went down and teach all the kids in the neighborhood to read and. My grandma who I don't give as much credit as I should taught me how to cook so every. Sunday on Never Miss Church right, so we go to church, and my kids think they're in church a long time when it's like two hours, but we'd be there from nine o'clock in the morning to about two o'clock in the afternoon. We have a breaking cook in the church basement. Right, so we have hamburgers and coffee remembered in seven up cake in a church basement, and then we go home after church service and I would be at my grandma's house and we would just cook and talk and look at JC. Penney's magazines catalogue. And it was just. Really beautiful and it was like the entire community took care of each other and everybody from you know my grandparents were there to my mom too I. Remember there was a sex worker is what we call them now right? who had a son that my brother was friends with? And she would come and teach us a lot like about being a woman and don't let these men do and it was. You know. She was eight. She helped raised me in a way. You know and it was just a really beautiful community and I think that. They talk about there's a author named Jones a Kundu food. WHO TALKS ABOUT? When ghettos become slums and that there's nothing wrong with the ghetto, and so I was raised in a ghetto and I was raised. Our neighborhood was called phone town, and it was what they call a gang neighborhood, but they were my family. And, so when I think about this now and I'm sorry for talking so long. It when I think about it now, and like the criminalization of the people who were killed by police and they go. Oh, he was a gang member so with I mean he was a gang member. Was He committing a crime? Right so I think about people like Ryan. Wyman who was twenty four years old, just killed last month by La County sheriff's. Twenty four sitting in his car in an apartment building that's considered has gang members in the apartment building, but he wasn't doing anything, but sitting in the car unarmed, they snatch in his bag door and kill him thirty four shots, and then go back to their cruiser. Get a an assault weapon and continue to kill him with salt weapon, right? And then what do what does the county sheriff do? They say basically. He deserved it because he was a gang member. I don't care that. He was a so called gang member when I was twenty four years old would have called me one because I lived in folktales right? It doesn't matter to me for me. That neighborhood was love. Right for me. That's where my first boyfriend almers. Jones was from right for me. It was where I got love and support, and was nurtured into becoming the woman that I am right even. I dropped out a traditional high school. But my neighborhood new, I shouldn't have dropped out. A traditional high school in everybody was like pushing me to go back in like when I come back now. There's a couple of people that I grew up with I'm friends with now you know still friends with, and they say things like you know weren't even supposed to be alive, you know. and. It was my neighborhood. That kept me alive, kicked my brother alive, and my brother was crazy, and you know was like the other boys in the neighborhood did stuff that would have gotten him imprisoned these days writing in the eighties and nineties. It didn't send him to prison. What does that mean? So I. Remember this one incident when my brother and a bunch of boys who were like probably preteens like about twelve, maybe eleven or twelve. Had Broken into an empty apartment unit in the housing projects that were across the street from our house. And they took some of the supplies and began to throw paint out the window. They were eleven and twelve. That was stupid and they should get a weapon. Right, 'cause my Momma whip them right. But, in, and what wound up happening is police did grab them and they put them in the back of the car. And they drove them home because they knew my Mama was gone weapon. If eleven twelve year olds. Break into an apartment now. And do what eleven and twelve year olds do, which is not easy, but it's not criminal, right? These kids would have been taken from their mothers. They would have been incarcerated and they'd have to live with that process of criminalization for the rest of their lives. We are now in a system that is completely unforgiving, you know. I've shoplifted before. I don't think I've ever said that publicly but I've shoplifted many times before. I've gone to jail before right, but all of those things where things that you know when I was arrested for the first time in Berkeley, California mom recently handed me like my arrest record from Berkeley and it said like if she doesn't do anything else for the next year, this record will be destroy right. That does a happen anymore. Right and so that's what I mean. When I say like the system was forgiving of my brother and me. But now we would have had a different fate while and there's such a rigidity now. And even when I when I hear you talk about you know the neighborhood in the boys in the neighborhood now they would have been described as gang members. I wonder about what that means when people hear the term because so much of what we know. When it hasn't been. Our life is what we see on TV. Right and we think gang member means murderer means someone who kills someone to get an a gang means someone who is a drug dealer means and that's. Much more often than not not the case, right? and. You know, people get identified as gang members I. Now know from my police experience. If, they're on the same block as a person who is confirmed in a gang. If they're seeing the same street corner than all those kids seen with that one kidder gang members association. That's how the police legally are allowed to identify you now. I know a kid who was just released from jail. WHO WENT TO JAIL? On an associate to murder. Charge because he was standing next to a guy who got shot in the butt in an altercation, right? And when people hear that they go, that's not. They can't do that to you, but they did this to this boy. And so I think. A. There has to be a reassessment with what we believe these definitions to mean and be. We also have to understand that nobody is. To be acquainted to the worst thing they've ever done. And Yes to all of that and I actually think kids who grow up in gang. neighborhoods aren't really doing things that are that bad. It's the. White affluent kids do much worse. And Bear not criminalized for that behavior. Right I think it's part of. You know it's the stomach. It's intentional manning marable talks about that right like these systems were intentionally designed to produce these outcomes, the criminalization of black people right even the killing of black people at the hands of police. It's not accidental the disparity in sentencing between cocaine and crack. Right right, so it's all intentional. And we have to remember. That children have the right to be children so like now that I've opened up the can of worms about shoplifting. I won't share this mom right to. The first time I shoplifted I was in the sixth grade, and I actually was in Berkeley, and my mom had moved me from my neighborhood elementary school to a white fry elementary school, in Berkeley, like the super. White Liberal Elementary School in all the kids were rich right and the only two black kids I remember black girls I remember were me and Whoopi Goldberg xxx go whoopie, Goldberg, daughter Alex. And so. These rich white girls air with some sleepover wanted to go steal some stuff from this toy store called Mr mops right. So, we went into Mr Robson. We've put a whole lot of shit in our backpacks. We got away with it and then this is how a sixth graders mind works. We decided we needed to go back. And in my mind, I'm thinking. Mr mops workers see thousands of people they'll never recognizes again because there's thousands of people because I'm ten or eleven years old and I don't know. They remembered that you just in here an hour ago. Right but I'm thinking Mr Matzos big toy store. Thousands of people come in and out, and so that's how we were grabbed because we were stupid enough to go back and believe right. Kids have the right to make those kinds of dumb mistakes. Right not just about that I could go back and get more. We could go back and get more right, but you know to take things that don't belong to you. You need to be corrected, but it shouldn't be a criminal justice system that does it and I think that this is the work of people like Brian Stevenson and others that is just incredible. If you look at what's happened since the height of kind of mass youth incarceration in the nineties with the passage of things like prop twenty one that gave discretion to the prosecutors, instead of judges about you know children and how they were charged. We've seen a dramatic decrease in the criminalization of children, especially in places like California in San Francisco There's virtually no children who are incarcerated right, and it's because people are starting to make choices and starting to recognize especially almost everybody is apparent right? Kids do dumb Shit you've. You did dumb shit right. So we shouldn't be losing lives and traumatizing further traumatizing these children for doing the dumb shit that they're supposed to do because their kids ride and really affords an opportunity to teach lessons. I remember member Kid I. Don't know. You're not really that old so when I was growing up. We have fights at school long. Time like we were always fighting and we thought we wouldn't get suspended if you waited till three o'clock. In fact, you wouldn't wait till three o'clock and fight off of school grounds. Then you could fight in. Somebody got beat up and then you go home, and if the school found out about it, you had to go in and write some shit. I will not fight anymore. You Know Oh my God lines you. When you had to write sentences on the board when you got in trouble. Yes, you know what fights are called at school now. Assault and battery. And I think that's absolutely ridiculous. Their kids their children, right? We've all had. Hit daymond skill learn in the nose in the first grade because he tried to kiss me I remember being in the fourth grade and I can't think of what the boy's name was. He was a sixth grader, and he hit my best friend Matt and I kicked the sixth grader in the nuts, greats like a swift kick to the nuts. He dropped then it was a whole thing where he was embarrassed because he got beat up by a girl, but I was like. You're bigger than my you know. Six and fourth grade like the boys are very differently developed, and I was just like you pick on kids, your own size, and the irony of like this tiny scrawny little girl. Sixth grader who was in the fetal position screaming at him, how you should pick on somebody as big as him, and I was like half the size of my friend Matt, but I mean he clocked him right, and none of us got in trouble, right? It was just like a playground thing, and that was over I got in trouble in fifth grade when I- stolen racer, and that's when I had to write sentences on the four. Kids! Take stuff, Redo stuff. Even think about you know you're talking about your brother and his friends like playing in a you know construction space throwing paint around like I'm an adult and sometimes i. go through construction sites I'm just really curious. Like I straight up, we'll pull over like in the neighborhood, and be like Whoo, and if a gates open I'll just go wander around I've never thought that I was going to get arrested for that right. And, you won't I read right. You won't right right and added in yard fight. Little white kids are not going to go to jail for the school yard fight, but my son will right. Well an interesting that the way that we are. Policing younger younger children is becoming more and more aggressive You know they wouldn't. They wouldn't have. I don't think schools were calling it a salt. No I was eight, but now that's the thing that's crazy, right? Well and is something that's interesting to me. Is the disparity in? Whether it's potential or actual punishment. because. When I think about the work you do today, and I think about the courage that it requires to step outside and do it. I think about the difference again. Let's say it's you and me at in protest. The difference in what happens to us because you were charged with assaulting police officer in a courtroom and the irony that you that the man. Man Here's this, so the story goes. He got grabbed on the arm while he was walking. You know somebody out of a courtroom so to be out of the police commission meeting right. WHO's a police commissioner and thank you so the I'm like? People grabbed me by the arm all the time like strangers on the street. Who are like? Hey, dave is I take. That assault! So this feels ridiculous to begin with that grabbing somebody by the arm and saying hey like. Go easy on this kid. could be assault, but what makes it even crazier to me? Is that a another woman said I'm the one who grabbed the officer by the arm, but she's a white woman, right? And yet. The LAPD charged you with. Assault And then they managed to drum up seven other charges large you with eight eight misdemeanors altogether, so this could have potentially carried a prison sentences of a year. And that's if they did them as concurrent. Consecutive consecutive would have been three and a half years well. And I guess what? What's interesting to me? Is that despite someone else saying no? I grabbed the COP and despite every witness in the courtroom. Saying we didn't see me to do that and you saying I absolutely did not do that. They were pressing you and it feels. To me as an observer like this is a policing of dissent. Policing of your voice. There are an in that in that article. That I got the scourge quote from I get real nerdy on my homework. They said something that I found really interesting that this has and to quote. This has far reaching implications for free speech in Los Angeles Los. Angeles is not the only city effort to silence activists. The city council also. Also recently created a new set of rules against public disruptions aimed at banning those who disrupt La. City, Council meetings from attending future meetings, which went into effect last January. Public Disruption time honored activist strategy to bring pressure to bear on government officials and your lawyers went on to say publicly that the city is treating legitimate forms of dissent as a crime. Yes and it is our right our constitutional right. To free speech and to protest. We are meant to hold our government accountable because it's meant to be government for us. So, what does it look like as an activist today? When when we think about. How kids are getting treated when we think of our activists are getting treated when we think about disparate punishment depending on what community you fall into. How do you how do you? How do you get up every morning? so that so I actually was tired of going to police commission meeting, but when they tried to ban me from it, and you know talk about all criminalized me for going on I'm never missing another police commission meeting. Right so that's part of how I get up because I actually get. Inspiration and feel like I'm living in my purpose by doing the right like I don't WanNa just sit home and watch TV or Play Games or whatever there's stuff that needs to be done and I enjoy it, I it's like artists in their art right like I, have to live in it ram so like. And there are. Yeah this is this is the thing that you make with that inner duty. It's my purpose, right. I believe it's my purpose. Right sacred duty, right. And what happened was absolutely the criminalization of black protests specific. Right. And so there were other people who've been arrested before I was arrested in other incidents. All of them black. White folks been arrested, but not charged. So you know there was one of the charges that they tacked on. was about an arrest when we did disruption after a brother named Carnell Snell was murdered, and they found his murder in policy. And we began to chant his name and I along with two of my white comrades. White women comrades who understand that their freedom is bound up with mine right? All got arrested together. and. You were the only one charged. I was the only one charge. And so they wouldn't. They didn't never charge. Her name is Gina. WHO said that she's the one that touched the officers arm I did not. Sitting here until I saw there was video evidence right until I saw the video in that I absolutely did not touch this officer, right? I'm sitting here racking my brain going. Did I brush him on the way out because what was happening is they were trying to escort out. The aunt of a woman named Joaquin Show Wilson who had been killed inside LAPD jail. and I wanted to make sure she was okay. Her name is Sheila. I want to make sure she was okay and then when I got arrested. Two. I'm going. What did I do you know? And so there is a deliberate effort. I believe to not just silence protests, but silence black protest. Because part of what happens when you say you know, why am I not following Black Women Is I think when black people engage in protest. We're less bound and tied to the system, and so our protests lot more radical. You know our protests. is much more far reaching in terms of what we want and so silence that. And I. Think People Looking at it from the outside are afraid of the energetic power of it, because whether they are consciously aware or not. In in my observation of the power of the protests of black women, it feels so big and to your point may be so radical because it carries the energy of life in-depth stakes. Right! and. I remember that guy who made the sign at the first women's March in DC. That was like. Oh, my goodness, y'all y'all nice white ladies at the next black lives matter protest which I thought was amazing. And and again just living in the relative privilege of this body I can go to the women's March and I can raise my voice, and I can be an activist, and I can show up in spaces and raise money for causes and. But I don't walk down the street. Feeling as though my life might be threatened. Very often late at night. I'm nervous I. Walk With My keys in my hand I. Like don't Parkinson Places. That's being a woman right but I don't have the same experience that you or my girlfriend who lives in Venice have on the sidewalk. and. So I wonder if. My. Sacred Rage when I'm out screaming or on a podium or Leading a protest. Doesn't feel as threatening because I am inherently not as threatened. Right I, also think that when you talk about. Kind of the. When we've talked about like the proximity to privilege, so when you talk about privilege in the proximity to privilege. Part of that privilege is a certain degree of protection of you by the system. Right so absolutely. There's the energy piece, but it's also. Like. Courtney and Danny who were the two white women who were arrested with me. You know we brought it up. We'll. Why are the two white women being charged? Not that we want them charge, but why are they not being charged? And it was really the system city attorney, right? Nodding and going out there. Okay, right? It's heart of this. There but their next to us. There are folks like these are with. These people are with me not with you. We did the exact same thing, right. Heart of them genus sitting up. Going I did I even at the time I was being arrested. She didn't touch. You touched you. You would think at least they grab her to right. Nope, never got grab never got charged years gone by, so they can't charge your now, but over and over and over again in the documents that were submitted everything she sang. She did it so I think it's part of the system saying. You know, you might not get all of the white supremacist patriarchal benefits, but you get some of the white supremacist benefits white woman. Right you still here right and I think that's part of what's happening as well as the energy. And I think that. What you are challenging in the system. is at the root of the system itself. You know you are talking about. The disparity in how the system is applied to people of Color, and you're doing that as a black woman. And your threat to the system is bigger. And you know the it is. It's not lost on me that historically there has been an attempt to separate. Women who are trying to make social change with meaning white women trying to make social right from communities of color, because all the people at the top WanNa do is bifurcated. The people upset with them so so I even wonder if it goes deeper in the court system where they're like well if we can make, the white ladies feel protected. Maybe they won't come to the next. Black lives matter protests. Maybe they won't be at the next white people for black lives event because we gave them a pass right, and whether that's a conscious choice or not, there is the insidious nature of let's separate right like look at women's suffrage. Let's separate right. Let you know. There has always been a desire by the powerful few to make sure that the more that the less powerful masses don't realize how much collective power they have a was together absolutely absolutely, and that's like that's where I think that the sacred. Your when you talk about being a woman nest being being here for like a truly intersectional community of women, we have to double down together. Yeah, because I'm like I'm not going to get duped I'm not GonNa do the thing. They did one hundred years ago. No, no, no, no, no, this is not going to happen. I think we need to lift up that there are Hella. White women doing it right like so. Danny and Courtney did go to jail with me. They did get arrested with me, right? Lena is say don arrest her taped me right, so there are women who were starting to see. Who See the rules right? WHO's no know how to spend their privilege? Exactly exactly and I always feel like as we talk about struggle, we always have to uplift the hope. Right that there's it's a you know. Dr, King Talks about the beautiful struggle, the beauty and the struggling right and So I talked about molly, but I don't think I've never had as many white. Friends as I have in the struggle like because these are white people who aren't perfect right. But who I trust right? I think that for black people. There's a massive distrust of white folks because it's. It's reasonable, right? It's logical, but there's a few we. In our meetings pour something called libation, which kind of honors our ancestors summons those spirits into the space and s for guidance, and we always you know this Sunday when we have, our meeting will absolutely call. Tony Morrison. Right. We'll call on those who help us move forward. And White people and sometimes we'll lift them up like on social media. Wherever white people are our ally? Group is called white people for black lives became been since they were founded in twenty fourteen. they'll hash tag. John Brown, Twenty Fourteen John Brown Twenty Fifteen John Brown twenty sixteen right. They're calling on for them the ancestor that. Shows them. How can white people really be down and we're not asking people to you know literally. Sacrifice, their lives, and the lives of their sons. That's what John Brown right. But that he was down like that like Mama Heriot's freedom means enough to him. That he would give up his life, and his sons life right in order for us to be free in order. He saw his freedom as bound up with ours, and in the midst of struggle right like really engaging in the struggle. That's one of the greatest beauties than. Racism isn't absent from the struggle. But I trust the white people in the struggle to a whole different degree than I trust you know the white gentrify. Right, who I don't trust it all right like the ones who were going to call the police on my kids. Right I'm able to see. White people differently as allies as accomplices right. Willing to disrupt a system that seemingly benefits them. and. It's such a relief, isn't it? Yeah, and I always tell my daughter, my middle daughter, who is my free spirit? Who I say is my greatest joy in my greatest frustration, right? That every moment is a new moment. Right so every moment is a moment to do something differently right so even if yesterday or this morning. You were something that you didn't like. You can change it now right and recognize that that's a process to write like change as much as you can know that also you get called out on your shit sometimes. Like you're not gonna see everything that I see because you don't know what it feels like right? Let me call you in. Call you right and know that it's not personal it's. I need you to be better right? I need you to be. We're not going to be able to take down all this shit by ourselves, right? We need you. We need you to step up. We need you to give your voice your body and your resources and move it so that we can all be free. And how lucky to be invited? I really think that when you shift when you look in the mirror. And choose to shift your perspective from feeling called out to fueling called in Let me tell you something like i. come from crazy Italian family. I have a whole thing where I'm like. Have you ever stabbed me in the back to eviscerate your existence like we're done I am I am ice cold? There's no. At least have the courage to like. Look me in the eye and. Give me. The knife in the stomach like Letaba was having an exchange. So. And it's like obviously that's on the extreme end of like going through the worst, the worst with people but I. Think there's a version of that when you get into. If you feel called out, you feel attacked. Stop looking at it like that when I stop calling you out, you like you're frozen, you're you're the person who stabbed me in the back of your over your never again? I think if we can shift this idea that the call out. If it's happening and you're aware of it. You're being called in right. You are being invited. You're being invited into a space to learn to do better to be better. Take it as a welcoming right. Right. Absolutely it is, it's funny. It's like I know there's people who are listening to that are like what a weird thing to say, but. I'm. I just I know it to be true and it and it feels like it exists on the same vibration. Is that feeling of like the activism is the joy that that's that's the purpose. That's the calling and. I know that anyone who comes into any of these spaces that we all work in. Leaves Feeling Fuller leaves feeling more connected to themselves and their purpose. Somehow it's it's the thing it's before that helps you. Stop trying to fill a whole, and that makes you the filler. Yeah. Yeah and it's a really special place to be and. I'm curious on that on that idea of activism, service, calling what do you? What do you think makes an effective activist? So I think activism is small right so I defined myself an organizer. I keep saying I define myself as I got many identities. And what that means for me is an activist is somebody who stands up in response to something, but I think we need to be more than that right, so an organizer is someone. who builds right builds organization. and also understands that this kind of messianic leadership model where you're going to be an activist and give a great speech and everything's GonNa Change is flawed by design. In order to get you to think that all we need is another Martin Luther King Right. The version of Martin Luther King that we were fed is wrong anyway, right? There were thousands of civil rights organizers, right? He just happened to be one of the best orators of all time right but Mama Baker was a far better organizers him right and so we need to understand that there were all of these people and so for me. I think what makes a good organizer is understanding. That were part of. You are not bigger than the movement right so one of my Baba's Hank Jones. Who was one of the San? Francisco aid of member of the Black Panther. Party, who was criminalised in incarcerated for? Being an active black man in the sixties right, and he always says in this movement. Our job is to kill the EGO right so. The greatest work we can do to kill the ego and I think that that's the greatest internal work that we can do right. A good organizer! Doesn't need to have their ego stroked never have to be thanked. They Nath never have to be received accolades for the work that they do because the work should be about the work right and so a good organizer recommend recognizes that the most impactful thing that you can do is to create more organizers right so. To empower people to not seek in Asymmetrical Messianic model of leadership that puts you at the top right leading everybody else behind you, but recognizes how strong we are, when we all march arm in arm and that you also don't know how to do every damn thing like. I can I'm a teacher. Right so I teach pretty well right I'm a good writer you know. I am not artistic I don't have artistic bone in my body and. have. Someone else in the movement Foamy Lola. WHO's a brilliant playwright and poet, right? Who if we didn't have that team? Are Arts and culture team? When I speak or write I feel like it can hit people the thinking part. But how do you get people to Dream I can't get people to dream. That's what the artists do right because they bypass the mine and get to the sole right, and then I can you know put in the thought sir? I can write. Likewise, and you needed me to draw a picture I'd be like here's a stick figure I'm so sorry. But you're an artist, writer and artist I'm a performer, but I can't paint. But somebody point like a good organizer. We need performance artists. We need painters. We need people who can speak. We need people who can mobilize. We got the sister in black lives matter named Jan who she can make friends. Would any damn body right like we'll be at a protest next thing you know. She got everybody's life story. She's telling us what they GONNA do. These people are at the next meeting because Jan? That's a gift. Yes, the able to commune with people like that and so good organizers recognize it you. Were you know one pain and a stained glass window you know. And it takes your job is to figure out how all these pieces fit together to form that glass to form that formation. That's going to get us to where we need to go. I love the and I. Think it also takes the pressure of participation off for people who are starting their journey of showing up speaking up standing up. because. Some people think that if they don't know how to do it, they shouldn't. They shouldn't or can't or don't have permission. And when you talk about organizing in the community and getting back to that village that we evolved in as people. It highlights the reality that activism and social change it's. This is a relay race. We run on teams. We pass the baton. That's the only way for us to sustain is to do it together. Yeah and it. People often defy describe it as a relay race. But. I think it's kind of a a modified really right, so I was talking to somebody about youth organizing and they were talking about this relay. People need to pass the baton. I think the baton needs to be passed, but you still gotta keep running. A. Picture is running in a pack right and you just past the thing around. Maybe I should say it feels more like I. Don't know one of those Olympic torch ceremonies where like everybody goes together. Certain people have the torch a different time right but. If! You're running alone. Then what's the point right not running with the torch, and then passing it and then stopping. No, we still gotta keep going and when we're all running. That's how we win I WANNA. just quickly. Address what you said about people thinking. They have to have something special. You do have something special. Right I. Don't know what it is. Maybe you get along well with children. Maybe you can cook. Maybe you can sing. All of those things are. That's what I mean by Mama Ella Baker calls. It Group Center Leadership Ryan. All of that stuff is valuable to the movement. Even if you just have good ham, writing national one claim to fame. Yuban enrolls what people writing on a damn. Put your paper and you can read what they wrote. We need you. Who has the good penmanship to be the scribe writing? Even if that's all you got, please bring it. Like just bring it an offer. It and it's going to be valuable. I love that because people don't realize that they are exceptional everyone sort of thinks like unless there I don't know the great. World Changer there may maybe not a value add in every single person is evaluated. Absolutely. You said that. Racism is not simply a matter of thinking or feeling is a social hierarchy imposed to afford. People with unearned material and Sakic beliefs and I feel like we've unpacked a lot of that pretty well. But. Here, we are with President. Who was quoted eight times in a mass murderers manifesto? Right. There is this assumption that the system policies the people who do wrong, but we are talking about very disparate. Punishment right now. What what do we do with this? What do we because I I I would wager that there's a lot of people listening who feel very traumatized by what trump is doing? And what he's bringing. into this country. His Dehumanisation of people and effect it's having. What do you think? People at home can do. How do how do they support? How do they? Fight back against it. How do they support? Making Society but are they support you I'm curious how we turn the tide on something. That is this insidious. Yeah, I mean we absolutely cannot tolerate him. We cannot tolerate him and you know he's dangerous in terms of his rhetoric. Policy. And I think that at the last week has shown us how he's spurred up white supremacist violence right. It doesn't mean that that was never part of this country. It's part of the founding of this country. But in my lifetime, we've always moved further and further away from it right. We've always seem to in. You talked about being pushed right, but it's really two steps forward. One step back rights. We've always moved forward. This is the first time I feel like. Massive. Push back right a mass like. Sister Soldier had a song slavery's back in a fit right and it sounded like the Super Far. Fetched Idea. But now when you look at what's happening right when you look at you know lacking children in cages right when you look at family separation, I think it's one of the reasons why you see black people so involved, and what's happening at the border is because like. There's a trans generational memory of our own family separation, right? It's just overwhelming. He has given. Complete permission. For White supremacists terrorists to do whatever they want. And it doesn't mean that they weren't there, but they were being. Put in check right And I think that even? racism is not just a matter of thinking and feeling, but I think. Part of that permission is for them to engage the lowest of themselves right to say that those kind of. Lower creature. Instincts of invasion of ownership of mine right can be meted out in the most violent ways right. When you think about these mass shooters right like. We've seen things when you go back historically, and you look at what they did to my people under Chattel. Slavery, or what they did to my people after reconstruction during the height of the lynching era. Right the ideas I don't even know how they. Brought themselves to mutilate us and torturous in the way that they did. But that's what's moving back around, right? That's what this back again right What is it great again? He says great. Any again. That's what he's Harkening to right. I've never seen this happen before and so I'm saying that to say I don't really have the answers. One super easy one is. He got it go right? He gotta go. It's not radical to say I'm not voting right so some people think Oh, well, you know I'm not voting. The Republicans and the Democrats are the same. No, they have they both are owned by Corporate America and we had this fool in office no more, so he gotta go gotTa. Go. Congress has to be courageous. Enough to drag is ask about their. We really can't afford to wait until twenty. Take Office again twenty twenty one. We can't afford to wait that long. So I think this whole idea of impeachment, icee dragging like somebody, somebody just needs to drag him like. You? Know I can't say too much, but he gotta go. You gotta go like I would like to see him go immediately. I think also, though as we talk about voting and one of my concerns around kind of the engagement with electoral politics which I think is important. Is that sometimes we allow systems to tell us. That's our only tool. And I believe in voting. But I believe in what I call voting plus right. Vote yes, and what else are you? GonNa do? I love that voting plus right. Because you can't just vote right, you must vote right. What is your responsibility once every four years for fifteen minutes. No, no, it's liberal election day. Yes. Local elections midterm elections every four years presidential, and who are you in your community everyday? Absolutely? Yeah, absolutely, so it's not okay. You don't get to sit by. And Watch injustices happen right. This is a burden that black people beer. All of the right when we talk about like everyday, racism. Every day we're experiencing something and I don't want to go on a whole diatribe about what I just experienced Costco, but I love Costco to. It's like one of my favorite places, but they hurt me because I went to buy some pizzas at Costco. I had on a black lives. Matter T shirt. The Guy Giving me my pieces. It was supposed to take fifteen minutes gay my pizzas away to these two white men walked up behind me knowing I was waiting. When confronted him? He takes even longer he decides. He's going to get a be out of the instance so stupid, but there was a be trapped in the screen. He's going to remove the beef from the screen and he can't Hammy my pizzas, because this is more important and like I felt dumb, having to call Costco and say I feel like this was Racsa. But I know it was racism, right I know it was. When you see that happening one, those two white men shouldn't have taken the damn pizzas. They knew I. was there before them right? But you don't get to just sit there and watch it happen, and so the everyday things aren't always big things like protesting at a police commission meeting or joining a march or forming March right? It's also the little things you know when you see. Why did the black boy get picked for the class for the advanced class? Right? Ask those questions from wherever you are whatever it is wherever you when people are on Internet talking about. You know. Don't get me. I was like what is wrong with you. Right like what is the matter with you? Give her the job I think about things from macro to micro and making sure you're making calls. Making sure you're donating what you can making sure. You're showing up where you can. If you're witnessing. Somebody getting pulled over or pulled aside by the police in public to stand there right I stand around now. Yeah, I stand around I, have my phone in my hand and I'm like if I need to record it, but I just want to be there energetically I just WANNA. Be there right and they hate it. The police heyday et, where you stand there. Yeah I've never had hop watched and the person didn't get sent home. Yeah, no, they don't love it. And it's interesting because I as I mentioned. You know to be frank like I'm still very close to my technical adviser that I worked with in Chicago and I tell him that and he's like good. You should good, and I'm like. I, like you I knew I liked to varies and like. You know I'm I'm Upfront Mike I love you enough to challenge you right here. We are I love this country enough to challenge her. James Baldwin Mike. Right I reserve the right to criticize her perpetually because I love her. Yes, it is so important. Yes, and I'm curious for anybody WHO's listening to us today. Who is in the La area and wants to show up? Wants to show up for black lives matter for a city council meeting for white people for black lives. Where do they start? So we have a website B. L., L. A. Dot Org and we have a website because there was a white ally who sit. We needed a website and she donated money for us to build a website. So that's a victory. Be La Dot Org on social media were be L. M.. Los Angeles on Instagram and B. L. MLA on twitter. And listening right now, so that will give you everything that we're doing right, so just follow our social media, but if you're listening right now, there's some things people can do right this minute. Right number one making join our monthly meetings, which are every second Sunday of the month. They can join our weekly protests with the families of those who were killed by police in front of Jackie. Lacey's office. Jackie Lacey is our district attorney. Five hundred forty people have been killed by police since she's been in office. She's been in office for six years and she is choosing not to prosecute those officers so every single. Wednesday, at four, o'clock were in front of her office. Here's a super easy. Easy One We try to give people sixty seconds for justice. Something Super Easy that folks can do I talked about the murder of Gregorio Mac inside of the Crenshaw Baldwin Hills Mall those officers were ruled out of policy by the police commission, and the chief of police is has decided so far that he is not going to fire or discipline, and so we want people to sign an online petition. To chief Moore to fire those officers in that S- in easy link. It's tiny. You are L. Dot. COM SLASH GRA. Sharia Gre C. H. A. R. I O. G.. R. E. C. H., A. R. I O. and just sign and share that link, and then you can always donate to black lives. Matter show up to police commission meetings. There's a lot that you can do our young people with Europe parents we have. Black Lives Matter Youth Vanguard who just want a tremendous victory for the last four years. They've been trying to end what they call the random searches and schools so in la USD. They had a policy of every single middle and high school. Every single day they would pull children out of schools, usually black children and physically searched them for contraband. You would think contraband is things like Gut, guns and drugs right in that time they found zero guns, but what they were putting children on lists for is for having contraband items like Hand Sanitizer highlight irs white out sharpies. What? Yes, it was terrible. And the children kept fighting. This was a completely student led movement supported by the teachers from Ucla who. I'm so indebted to our teachers. Telling incredible Oh my God. They went on strike, not for their own raises. Yes, they went on strike for the conditions of my children, and I tear up every time. I say it because my daughter's were searched, are searched and they went on strike to end those random searches to turn our schools into community schools to bring librarians and counselors into the schools. And we won and so starting this year, there was an end to random searches in schools and so I'm saying that to say. Bring your kids, yes. That's part of the beauty of the moon. People will win. Yeah and I mean kids like bring your four five year, olds. They have ideas like when we talk about dream before you think they are nothing but dreamers. And they fill us with so much life and imagination, and so those are things people can do I love that. Yeah, and that makes me feel hopeful. That makes me feel like on fire with potential. Okay, so my last question for you and I ask this everybody because I. I get to sit across from so many people who am in awe of and I think that very often. In an ever more digital world where we're looking at people through screens, we kind of feel like everybody else. Has It all figured out? Figured out how to lead out of parent has figured out how to whatever it is. They're doing better than we think we're doing. But in my experience, everybody's still feels like they're trying to figure it out. And so I'm curious. As the PODCAST is called work in progress. What in your life right now feels like in progress to you? Oh my God, like every. I have not conquered my battle with Food I. Love Food. I specifically I'm looking at these rings right here I'm like I. Want some of those so when we stop talking I'm eating some. I have not yet figured out how some people fine exercise. Fun I don't want to do that. Right? I like taking walks, but I don't want to go to the gym. It's nasty. I don't WanNa. Go to a gym I'm a terrible romantic partner. So I'm not in a relationship, and I've only been in like. Why was married to my children's father for ten years, but that ended seven years ago and Astrologer actually told me he said He asked me. Why are you divorced? And I said I think married, the I guess I, married the wrong person, and he said No. You marry the right person. That's why you're divorced. And he said. I'm not intended to be a term relationship. I'm intended to have like these sometimes a year sometimes three months. So I have not figured that out at all and I'm starting to figure out. Well. That's what it may be. Is He was right? There's so much I haven't figured out any of this shit. None of it like I. Don't know what freedom looks like I can't i. don't know what I'm supposed to be right in a book. I'm going on. Sabbatical haven't started. The dam would cause I start reading the book and then get lost in the reading. I haven't figured out how to make myself meditate when Oprah and Deepak don't have those twenty one day, it's extremely hard. Yeah, yeah, I mean I have to make myself because otherwise I'd lose my mind, but it's like work I. Haven't figured out how you be an activist and keep a clean house. So none of it. I have to say I get. I'm sitting here just going yes. Because everything you're saying makes me feel relieved. Me It's like. It's a very full plate. When you want to have a life and dedicate your life, and and you have kids like I. Have a dog and I don't know how to do. It I'm like who knows how to keep a thing alive i. what? This. Feels hard, and I feel like I'm always cleaning and there's always stuff and I just. I don't know the answers yet. But, yeah, the. The the practice of self care. Feels like work to me. Were caring for the world feels like joy absolute, because self care is selfish care, but it isn't. So Mir isn't selfish is if you don't adopt so I want you to hear what you said Karen for the world feels like Jordan. All we have to do is create a model where we reciprocate the care for the world right? Yeah, so the reason I say self-care is selfish cares for a couple of reasons one I. I feel like too many people use it as an excuse to shove this shit that they're supposed to be doing off onto my plate. Right saying that they need their meantime, or whatever will that work still has to be carried in. I feel like it's the black. Mamas wind up carrying it right. Black women being the mules of the world right Zora Neale Hurston right so I'm mad about that, but also the selfish care when people really need care. You can't just say you should take care of yourself right. We need to take care of yes, and so I. Believe in a model of community care I believe that there are times when we need care, and we should all be that care for each other. Yes, and I I WANNA clarify fully agree with what you're saying. And what I'm learning for me anyway. Is that personally I have? I think is so many women have been taught to prioritize everyone over my cell phone, and now I'm like. Oh, no, no, no self care I can't think that selfish of me to sleep right or to make time to meditate, or and by the way S I I meditate every day, but I'm trying to get at least two more days when I do them when I don't. and. I'm really in this sort of struggle with understanding that I deserve that because if I if the things I needed to do to be a healthy person I needed to do for my child. They would be done Renault question. And so I I'm I'm in this stage in the last year and change where I'm like. Oh, I have to require it for myself the way I would require it for my kid, and I think that even that is community care. Because why are you serving yourself like I can't die. Yes, I got kids in a movement, so you know I probably should scale back on the peach rings right like you know, we should do some level of care That's the other work in progress I never sleep like I sleep maybe three hours. And, so that's something I'm trying to work on. You know cases now I know you said work in progress, but here's a heck. I learned laugh for real everyday. Yes, laugh like my middle daughter. We be roll life. Like to the point where tears come out your rib start hurting like that kind of laughter every single day. Find something that makes you do it, and then all the other stuff doesn't really matter right, so Oh, well I love it. We got life ax we got we got some work to do. On word you think you've heard. This show is executive produced by me. Sophia Bush and Sims Arna. Our supervising producer is Alison Bresnik. Our associate producer is Caitlin Louis. This episode was edited by Matt Asaki. And Our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced by Mark Foster. The show is brought to you by cloud, ten and brilliant and Adamy powered by simple cast.

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