20 Episode results for "Lacy Roberts"

The Long Haul of Fame

Over the Road

59:07 min | 1 year ago

The Long Haul of Fame

"Hey listeners Paul here packing up to take a load of food down to Florida. I just want to offer personal content warning for this one you know the world we as truckers is not always G. rated and frankly the way we talk about that world among ourselves can get pretty course. We do our best here at over the road to present these stories in an unvarnished manner while still being sensitive to both our listeners and the people were talking about to be truthful though. That hasn't always been easy. There have been some pretty tough calls along the way especially in this episode. We'll be hearing accounts of drug use homelessness and sex work just know we thought a lot about it and feel like there's meaning and merit every story you're about to hear. Here's the episode. When we were mapping out this podcast. Somehow this idea came up. Just who are your personal heroes and who are people that just mean a lot to you and somebody at that Radio. Topi headquarters said you know. We just need to make an episode about these people. That's why we came up with this title So ball I have a question. Yeah go ahead Tom. Are we really going to do the titled Trucking magazine Pun thing with the the Word Hall for this well. Here's the thing time that we're broadcasting this to the outside world and you're an editor for a trucking magazine so it might be tired and moth eaten to you but to our radio TOPI listeners. It could be fresh and new Lacy can can you announce the title? Because I don't completely remember sure well hit the music. We're about to enter the world of long haul polls long hall of fame these people. They're not owners of truckstop. Sure not like leaders of movements. These are people that I I met by chance out on the road. It was like Halloween down there. I didn't dream. It was a god given planning and I had like this one rule. If you're going to be like my trucking friend they have to be highly entertaining. Paint on when the going get trucking. I'm a nurse stories after stories back in the day all five of these people are great entertainers in their own special way. No no no. You don't throw cheese away. Wait a minute I am an old. She's like a trucking legend. You know baby can. I use your radio and entertainment from PR? Xs Radio A- and overdrive magazine. This is long haul. Paul's hall of fame on over. The road was low. Too Strong on the over. The road was that just a little too strong. Okay okay okay. If you like over the road give sound opinions. Try Each Week. Noted music critics. Jim De regattas and Greg Kat Review New Releases. Discuss Classic albums in conduct exclusive interviews with artists across musical genres sound. Opinions is a space for music. Lovers fans critics alike to share in the conversation sound opinions. Listen critically download sound opinions. Wherever you get your podcasts. Should we get into the episode? Absolutely okay so the first hero and mentor? Infringe I della Murray Hanson. Ooh My name is Idel Maria Hanson. And I'm sixty nine years old. What was that other thing? Oh wait a minute fifty. Two years. I've been driving fifty two years. Can't you tail my memories gone? She's an interesting interesting lady. I get up in the morning and again that see. I'd give that little legal and I'm ready for my day. Is the at ass trucker chick She she hauls money for a living and she wears gun. Always empowering who in the hell gives a sixty four year old woman a gun that never shot a gun before in her life You know are you nuts or something you know and and and I I just make it a habit when they when they asked me what. Y'All I just I just tell them you know better than ask that and you need to step away from the truth. Can you give me your step away from the truck thing? You need to step away from the truck fair God right now ask me again what do you need? You don't need to ask me that question sir. You're going to need to step away from the truck what's going on here is none of your business. You need to move on and you need to move on now so just imagine that sixty four years old. I think I'll just start hoeing money and carrying a gun around the ever if I if I if I were a gun. I I'm afraid I like stand in front of the Mirror. And the flying J and say fleas free. Do you ever do that. Never liked parliament. We do have to do that. Stop Halt Security Officer okay. There is a little power in there. You know there's people that start hanging up sixty four but she. She's just like she loves to truck. There isn't anything else. There just isn't anything I couldn't have been anything else but a on ever want to quit driving I really don't. She grew up in a middle-class business family in but she she had this thing in her from the very beginning. My I had a pedal-car mom never let me have a bicycle but I had a little boo. I was a spade demon everywhere. Just love I loved it and my dad said she's going to be a drive. Dad Wasn't real keen on it. He thought I should be a bookkeeper mother. Should I wanted to send me to school in Ohio for music and I wanted to drive in for a long time. Dead didn't talk to me. He walked crush street. Wouldn't have anything to do with me. Then he became proud of me at small out. There you see that she owns that trump. She runs a business. And we've been a family. We were always a family owning our own businesses so Having him be proud of me with something shoes by yourself. Most of the time I'll work locally ships rock and then she got married with Russell. She was hauling with her husband. Right yes they were they were in separate trucks but they were always on the same gig but then her husband gets injured and she has to go out over the road. What was I going to do? I had a truck payment. I had house payments to kids. Was I gonNa go home and cry? It was time to go to work. That's when we really see like the the feistiness of her personality come through on these stories. Bj McAdams poll flatbed form. While I was being pushed around was being taken. So you know when she first started out I think is an owner operator. She she had this boss. That must have been the seventies or eighties when when were like wearing their shirts open to like. The fourth button always walked around with his shirt. Unbuttoned like a like a manly man with the hairy chest and everything and Real Manley and he had a habit of always something being wrong with your check. You always short now. I remember thinking to myself. This ain't happening. This just ain't happening and I don't remember where I got the little heat gun to take the signs off the truck you know. She had those Stickers that she'd taken off the truck which are you know highly adhesive. They're you know they're made to withstand wind rain snow and heated him up in pulled him off and I went in there and cook them signs and of course now. You know they're sticky. I wanted them all up and I walked in and he says you're not going to quit and I said Oh yes I am and I stuck them right to his hairy chest. Well she she really sounds like a legend. She is she. She's one of these few people who've actually had a truckstop named after her and the Idell Hanson North Little Rock Petro and todd. Can you remember the exact distinction? It's called this the Ta Petro Citizen Driver Award and they've been doing for several years now can you? Can you tell me the whole house? That whole thing worked out where truckstop got named after you. How does that work? I don't know how to Hell Up. I think the nominations from anybody in the trucking community. And it's always it's always a driver. She says I would like to nominate you for Ta Petro Citizen of the year. And I says you've got to be kidding me. Did you ask her what it feels like to pull into a truck stop? That has her name on it. Oh Yeah Yeah I did but now I got shot down. I got shot down on that Course my name's on the top of the fuel receipt and my pictures right there. You know so I go in. I was full. Michelle and I said the GAL getting national. You know who I am. Don't you you've got to be kidding? I couldn't believe I said that. And she says well no and she's looking right at the receipt and she's looking at my name and never the Twain shall meet and I was very polite. I says I thought to myself. I deserved that. Who the hell do you think you are? It taught me a lesson. I go in there if they if they hug my neck and say anything. That's great if they don't I'm not anybody special. I'm just the next truck driver in line. But you don't really. I think they need to make me parking spot a reserved parking spot with my name on this mine alone. Don't you and K Paul? Yeah tell me about shoestring. My Name's Ken Wall and I've been trucking for approximately thirty eight years now shoestring shoestring law. Is this guy such a storyteller? There was this old hotel across the street. Dare and that's where all the hookers and the cross dressers. It was all happening right there. Historians are silly evocative and I got this drink and what kind of drink it was. I was so Milena Trish in from running over the road but it had all of this was a great big ball had all shoestring to me like towers towers over my stories. I mean because he had to go out and live that to get that story. I figured it up. One time you had to average about seventy mile an hour to get there I mean just just. Judging from the stories he told in that interview did with him he strikes me as a guy who had a tendency to get himself into trouble. Oh Yeah Yeah. That's just a tip of the iceberg. I mean you know you don't get stories like that by being the pillar of the community. You know you get stories like that. And now he became the pillar of the community like He's a stellar standup. Salt of the Earth Guy. But I think there's this part of them that he he loves to tell stories about the wilder days because he's resurrecting these memories in these characters and he just he just gives it all to you he gives you the good the bad and the ugly one time I was in Columbia South Carolina. There's this one story in particular and and this is vintage sue string. He's laid over the weekend at this truckstop in South Carolina and things really do take a bizarre and ultimately disturbing turn. I back my large car in you know and the parking place to my left was easel. Bed buggers I got to talk into. We all pitched in on some booze and everything. The party got of control. Got Out of control. These were household movers and they started bringing the furniture out the drunker and higher. They got so I bring over bag a weed not though it down while I was her best friend. Then I get along chair. Offered the truck well setting over from me. Was the chicken hall that night. The barrels came out. Busted up pilots got too far gone and emo boys was hungry. They cut the seal on that wagon and got in there and they've is bringing out whole chickens and they just the night win on more furniture came off of that they bring out the couch. They had in tables and that next morning. When I woke up there was truck. Drivers stretch down on these couches and chairs and a far was smoldering and the party kind of died down year no but they were stuck there for the weekend and we all got together. We we refreshed. Got More Booze at forty seven thousand bounds of chickens. The man in these old boys they weren't afraid to go in there and get them and everybody started pitching in Boyle by Saturday night. It was really kick one of the bed. Buggers had a boom box and this guy came on the radio and he was hollering this. Somebody could help a young lady APP to get the floor. Well she came over to the Party. He brought it over there and she was just a young girl. She was something like eight months pregnant and she wanted to get back to Florida in order to have her child. Everybody's like yeah. Give me a dollar. You know but she needed some money and one of these guys came up with a great idea. He had a dry man. He opens up his trailer and he had empty truck. He said that boombox of prayer and put her on the back out on the radio in charge truck drivers five dollars to come back to see the pregnant girl dance because she had worked as a stripper at one time. And I'm thinking while just when you thank you seen it all in this poor young lady pregnant just wanting to get home now. You know sat in a way. It's sad it's funny but it's it's funny but it's sad here. She is up Bare Strip. Naked dancing on a tailgate of empty trailer to an old boom box. You-know-who a cassette tape in it. And Hey she had a handful of money and there was a greyhound bus station at that truck stop. She got her a ticket and got on there and often wonder about her wonder. Whatever happened to her that my goodness for the kid would be what thirty five years old or more by now and That's been years ago. This wouldn't go on today out there. My wonder any chance that person's out there. And here's this in those this story. Yeah wouldn't that be something as a result of this podcast lady gets a hold of US and says that wasn't me well? I'd love to talk to her. I love her All right so Paul. You interviewed Someone who's very important to you who is not attract driver but plays a pretty big role and a lot of truckers lives. Yeah that that's more Shia Campbell. Okay Well Marseilles. We are doing a podcast. And we decided to episode called long-haul Paul's Hall of fame and people who are heroes of mine and on our little old farmhouse. There's a picture of view that hangs on our wall off. Because you're the one who kinda feeling about what are you feeling teary eyed and emotions are running and its role in it's real. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about the real nece. Well I'm actually supposed to be interviewing hair pollen shine. Nobody in any big radio outlet ever reached out and said I wanNA play your songs. You were the one who I'm going through. Cincinnati with a load of orange juice and I. I've message you and re requested song. I don't remember what song it was. And you play the song I request that and then you go. And here's one from long-haul Paul himself as Bessemer to Birmingham. I don't know if I should say this on over the radio I had to pull over and I literally lost control of my clapper. 'cause I'm being played on W. S. m. The flagship station of the grand old opry. And and and nobody did that for me. But you so so. Thank you test kind of consider just the importance of all night. Radio to a trucker. Find yourself on the night shift. Maybe your load was late. Getting getting out of the dock. And you've gotTA get north of Cincinnati before traffic hits in. Its three in the morning and and you just need something to engage you something to keep you awake and and and so you turn to Marsha lie for Music City. Usa This is the all nighter. I'm a cable on six fifty two headed Marzia and being the angel of truck drivers in the middle of the night wanting to hear or the human voice on the radio. But she's got this really interesting backstory. I was a stay home. Mom after my second son was born I was looking in. My walls are covered with CDs and albums so I called my local radio station and I said do you by chance. Have any time to meet with me. A about a programming idea and I went down and next week. I was on the air doing to our bluegrass show free. Wd Cayenne twelve sixty am. That was my hometown radio station where the foundation was laid. Of course I played the legends of Bluegrass Music. Bill Monroe Lester flatt roles but I would make tapes and record the show and I would take this tape to my radio mentor Keith. Bill Brey. She would send tapes to Keith. Bilberry was professional. Dj WCM. And I think he also helped announced the opry and I said listen to this and tell me what I need to do. I suppose I followed his guidance. He was in need of an a radio host syndicated across the country over twenty five different stations. Brooking America is listening to the interstate radio network interstate radio networks catered to the truckers and my first night on the air. The phone lines lit up. She just kept growing her craft and she winds up on the Interstate Radio. And then she longevity. Ws WS at that time did not have an overnight personality and I went straight to the general manager at that time and I said can we talk is America's trucking Sweetheart Marcie. Campbell pitched another program. This is the all nighter on six fifty playing music. We're doing this day in history. We're doing trivia. Well a number one song on this day in. Tell me when your birthday is. I keep a calendar. It's like I wanNA wish everybody heavy birthday talking joy. Peace celebration to everyone. Please slow down and drive with caution overnight clear skies what means so much to me about Marchesi after two thousand one after nine eleven in particular like night. Trucking radio just turned into constant talk about you. Know all the yanks that was going on in the country the United States military has begun to believe. There's another men through that. A lot of trucking four-match just dropped music altogether. And I personally I I kind of checked out after that I'm not hardwired For constant angst constant umbrage and data. Didn't keep me awake. What kept me awake was hearing Jimmy. Rogers Blue Yodel at three in the morning She it took her a few years but she resurrected that format. Dixie chicks with asleep at the wheel Johnny Campbell Christain Party millionaire and for that reason if she had never spun one of my songs I I would still consider her a Harem Nighttime brings out more sensitivity and you're joyful it mag it's magnified if you're lonesome if you're sad if you're hurting when that sun goes down it's magnified but when you know someone cares about you at the other end of the line whether it's the radio line telephone line because my phone lines are open. Call me if you're struggling. Then let's play a game or let's play some music. Let's get you going. You know it may be that twenty miles or two hundred miles so I learned to be a friend at the other. End of the line and So my callers are Honky Tonk irs. There truckers their gypsies their nighttime workers or it may be Miss Mary. That lives down the road who can't sleep at night. She's widowed and she loves country music so I have the audience that God wants me to have and I pray that I can be a beacon and the middle of the night whoever needs my light or my shine or My heart my attention. I pray that I can deliver long haul. I wish you happiness in good health peace and love and I wish you Enough Godspeed. My friend Next poll well. I'm going to tell you about my friend. Big Jim this is about as old school of a friendship and trucking as as you can come by we we met on a CB in Georgia north Georgia. I think I passed him somewhere right. Around the skill you know turned his lights off and on to let me know it was safe to come back in. And he was in a company track then. I was an owner operator. I think you saw who I worked for. And I talked to one of their drivers like the week before. Who said he was doing about a quarter million a year on his ten ninety nine and you made some kind of common over the CB how you like working there and we ratchet jarred all the way through Georgia. Then I decided I was going to give his company try and we celebrated that decision with a with a piece of cheese free cheese as it may be free cheese. These guys were like running pure outlaw. It was a thrill aid. Really will like the principles of this company. We work for were like all wearing ankle bracelets literally wearing ankle bracelets because of flagrant logged violations and back then this was my mindset. I was like cool. Where DO I sign up? One of these chance meetings on the road which became a lifetime friendship and through analysis span of decades. We've we've seen the highest of highs together and really the lowest of lows my name is Jim Selker and I'm from a little town called Juno Alaska. The other one in Wisconsin. You know the thing about Jim was he was just such a unique character because he grew up on this farm in Wisconsin and almost like this Christine Norman Rockwell town in Wisconsin. If you're if it has a church a bar and a garage it's a town. I mean there is Polka music on the radios at his family's farm we would acquire everybody's favourite alcohol and it would go in a big milk can with ice and fruit juice and that would like ferment. Then anybody walking through the barn would help themselves to cup of the two years we called. It had some walk man. Oh man his family had like some of the top dairy cattle in Wisconsin. But he didn't want any part of that and trucking was a way out for him and I went working for a buddy of mine who hauled exotic cars. They just found like this the bipolar opposite of his upbringing. I picked up a Lamborghini in Kentucky convertible black and nobody cared about the mileage. I had that car with me for a good month and I got my use out of it. And here's the thing I live vicariously through these people that that's a site they lived a life. I could not dare to live and I've told Jim that so many times. I just wanted to hear his stories. Because these weren't really stories I was ever going to offer. You said big. Jim Was Company driver when when you guys I met on the CB on I seventy five in Georgia there but he he did eventually By trucks right. Yeah yeah no he. He wound up buying a truck and he did well with it and then he bought a newer truck fellow down in Georgia had a decal shop down there and he made me under dollar bills floating up the the entire side of the truck and I call myself easy money trucking and he was really pop in there for a while back then we get paid by the Nine L. T. L. So the more you could stuff in your trailer. Though more you got eight. So He'd go book say Eighteen Pallets cantaloupes coming out of and then he call her aid finds a guy who's got a few few pallets of watermelons or something. You know he he. He was just a working machine. It was new partially for the money but also partially just to see if you could get a dengue what we did was. We would put on more freight than we were supposed to dodge skills so away to flirt. We go stuff the trailer fool and Mata it was almost like addictive was a cat and mouse game. And you're kind of culture where everyone was doing it. Yeah that's that's pretty much true as I look back at that I don't. I'm not trying to valorize what we did resist. It's just seemed like the only way to make at the time so we were just trying to make every dollar we could and I guess Gen. All of our outlaw always caught up with us and in fact you were the first one to the host. My hospital bed which I'll never forget. Can you talk a little bit about that solemn duty that you were somehow saddled with that you had to do for me that day? I was actually at home when I got the call from the company we worked for that you had been in Iraq. We haven't really talked about this directly before in it but I was wondering if you could just kind of pay me pitcher. What happened that day of the wreck ball? You know you're doing multiple drop loads. If you just had one person hold you up. You could really get in behind the eight ball so I was behind the eight ball turning and burning going from Florida to his consular. Produce and Wisconsin Florida with refrigerated product. And just just pushed it way too hard and I just I not off so I found where they had told your truck down there and man I was all. I was surprised that you were alive. That truck was in that much of of a of a wreck. I was really surprised that you made it through it. I was an ICU. And and I broke my neck. You Know I. It just meant a lot that he was there and And I don't remember if we could even speak at that point because I had to write for awhile I they had me up all hooked up and all that stuff and And and and you know it wasn't till that interview He was like almost scolded me for all the cheese that I ruined racking out just so you know. I had to throw a lot of cheese that week to everything at slid forward just kind of exploded in inside you know really I guess. I never knew that we never talked about. Did you have to take a lot of cheese to the dump? You never take cheese to the Dome you can use. That's that's like sacrilege for somebody from Wisconsin. I could just imagine the tragedy of the cheese. Okay Yeah yes you get it in of injuries but you should have seen the cheese so now. You're down in Miami Florida at a chunk. Aaron what did you have to do then? I look to see you know what I could recover for you from your truck and quite frankly there wasn't much and if I remember correctly the only thing that I really got for you is maybe a couple of close in your guitar. You know you and I and I don't think about this on a daily basis but you and I have been through a lot. Yeah it's Y'all life hands you things in got two choices either deal with it and go on or you let it get to you. How your career as a trucker ended about a year ago? Now Yeah just a little over a year. My kidneys finally gave out. So I'm on dialysis now and and Apparently the The feds won't let your drive a truck when you're on dialysis. I don't know why but apparently not the medical staff was very nice. They let us go interview right there when he was actually in dialysis. How has your life been since you got of trucking? I really don't Miss It. You're a slave to that truck and if you know at some point in time maybe it's their you figured out. There's more to life than eventually the machine often we were rousted out by the nurse. We've been asked to step out and will be record role out okay So our last honoree in long-haul Paul's hall of fame is a fellow by the name of Fast Ready. Yeah I I wrote a little essay about this because I just wanted to. I write better than I speak and I just wanted to put this in writing. So this is called the Pope of pomp and met in the phone room of the Florida State. Farmer's market in Palm Beach the room itself is best I can remember was about two hundred square feet with worn out carpet. A few dog eared chairs and a wall with two. Maybe three payphones. When things were really popping back in the ninety s you might have to wait five ten minutes until your turn for. The phone came up. For that reason. Brevity was appreciated and expected. That said there was no guarantee wouldn't get stuck behind some truckstop. Romeo who would throw etiquette to the wind while trying to work out. Some intractable relational snag with the second shift cashier from the Shreveport. Petro that kind of call with illicit intentional cough clearing of the throat and after yet more time the five minute cheetahs this particular day. There was a haggard. Looking Man. Feeding quarters into a seven minute apology to New York judge. Yes your honor. I fully understand. Sir I give you my word. It will never happen again. Yes Sir I fully own. It was a damn stupid thing to do thank you. You won't regret this sir. And then best I can recall. He started running out of quarters and began gesticulating to me smiling a bit just needing someone to break a couple ones fast. I just happened to have the right. Change Truth be told. I was so engrossed by what sort of trouble this guy must have gotten themselves into. I was enjoying the show and the call finally concluded his contrition evaporated abruptly concurrent with slamming down the receiver. Jesus was always say turns out. He went by Fast Freddie and when my own call was done Freddie was lingering by the door what are you Polish. He asked German. I replied and we wound up at a table together. So what did he do? What was the apologizing for? I don't know if there's a traffic thing like he. He was a guy that stayed in trouble constantly. It's like trouble. Trouble was like his daily staple. So here's this chance meeting in this phone room and the I'd join him and seems like every other guy that's walking into. This market is scanning the room seeing Freddie and walking up to our table and like like he's reporting for duty or something and I'm insinuated into his circle without even trying because I just happened to be sitting there and everyone that came up. Freddie wants you to meet my Polish friend from Chicago. And I'd say German. Freddie from Indiana German from Indiana could not peel him away from that screaming and kicking. I was always a Polish guy from Chicago to him. So so Paul I. I understand that fast. Freddie is no longer with us but you had an opportunity to talk to his daughter. Evelyn my name is Evelyn runs and I am from Cincinnati New York. He was so interesting about Evelyn was like she was embracing the whole thing. I admired the shit out of that man you know. I was his number one mechanic when he was home. I was the flashlight holder. I was the one you know dodging the tools when he was getting frustrated. She was driving a semi at the age of eleven. I was calling to reach the pedals and see plenty above the steering wheel so he would put it on cruise and she would go in the bunk and hold the steering wheel and I would sneak up around him and jump in the sea and dry for hours and hours left So Paul do you remember seeing Evelyn out on the road when she was a little girl? Oh absolutely all the time I whenever shot in the summertime when you saw Freddie you saw Evelyn and he was just a guy that always had to have those kids with any would always teach US sometimes to go around the Scales and sometimes how to be good way he'd be like. Oh well we're going to go the scenic route tonight. You know I'd be like Oh you know you got logbook filled out dad. Oh Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah I was like okay. Let's go yeah. There was no such thing as running out of hours. There was trucking in trucking and trucking. And then you take very short quick nap and trucking some more. After I came back from Iraq I was I was Kinda disfigured and Facially and my posture had changed. And the first thing he said when he saw me as what the hell happened to you. I told him goes. You're using drugs. I go no well. There's your first problem hard that exactly. I could see. Yeah if you were doing drugs that have been awake not sleeping. And he was ex- golding may for not using drugs so that was classic fast Freddie right there but you know Freddie the thing about Freddie was he I saw him as sort of like this outlaw trucker dude but he he he had this complete other side to him that I would have never seen had. I not been stuck in the POMPANO market. One thanksgiving I think might have been a Oh seven but it's the Wednesday before Thanksgiving and like Freddie like stands in front of everybody like like he's giving this commission he goes. We're going to have a fish tomorrow. Call every crack Horn every homeless bum. I even want you to invite the flat betters. We're going to have a Thanksgiving feast fellas. Wow you know the funny thing to say but it's it almost sounds like a Bible story. Yeah it was like know. We're having a feast. Invite the greatest to least and there was a there was a guy there who was known as Alonzo. The broom boy Lonzo had a drug problem and he made his living by sweeping people's trailers out and And Lonzo sat away from everyone because he he didn't bathe much and and Freddie made him a plate in there on the curb right next to him they ate together and they talk like old friends and then one narrow done eating. He came over to me and told me. Alonzo's whole story is just unbelievable. Everything he knew about Alonzo and I realized in that moment you know were Ralph Waldo. Emerson says every man is my superior in some regard That this guy who you know was always a mess. Always in trouble was also just this wonderful human being too. You know the the the guy who's a most down and out and I that always stuck with me. Does Evelyn remember that night? She absolutely does. That was the coolest thing I was like. You Know Dad. I really wish you were here for Thanksgiving and none of our family events wherever peaceful ever. So he's like you know I would much rather be down here with these people making sure all these crack whores and all these bums are fed. Been dealing with the nonsense home today and I was like you know that. That's that's Kinda cool. I'm not even mad about it and the crazy thing. This wasn't ice. I I didn't know this at the time but this was not isolated to pompey. No no no. He was like that every there were certain truck stops from home to Florida that he would stop at and in each of those truck stops. It was the same type of thing that you've seen in Pompilio so up up at hunts point you know. Evelyn tells the story where everybody even knew him up. There and hunts point is a big place. It's not Po. The pop no market. It's ten times as big as pompey. No mark it's in the Bronx. I remember I was like nine ten. Maybe and he'd be like well. You can go down to Mike's to the Chinese placing get. Get yourself something. They're not closed yet. I'm like but dad it's dark I'm little mom. Says we should be scared. He's like oh I know all of these people here. You're fine and sure enough. I could walk down to Mike and my sister was with us and you know we had to use the bathroom and this tiny little Chinese lady pulls out. The machete biggest. She is and my dad. You know started to go up and she go. No you stay here. I take them Venos- and up the stairs dragging your machete. She went things like that. Have stuck with me for these years. Just things that you never. You don't experience any way else. Besides in a truck Truck Gentil three days. Before he passed away he'd kept. You know sickness a secret and We knew things bad but he tried to avoid coming home as much as possible and he called me and he was in New Jersey. And he's like I'm at this exit. I can't I can't go anymore. You have to come get me off in the middle of Nineteen New Jersey. We want and that's when he took his last step side of his truck apparently After Freddie died the truck was parked somewhere had to be moved away from. And it'd been sitting for probably six or seven months. It just refuse to start. We had three or four guys. Come out and try to help us and it just did not want to start one of the guys like you know what I'm sick of this. Evelyn you get up there you do this. I had my youngest daughter with me at the time. She was like a year old through her. Up In there and I just sat there turning the key and hitting the gas going. Come on please. Start to start. Please please start come on Dad. Please Start and then all of a sudden black smoke everywhere. I instantly tears running down my face and I was like all right guys like I don't have a CD L. I can't drive. Even they're like what do you mean can't drive? I was like why can't drive do and they're like well. This is no different so One of my dad's friends jumped up in the passenger seat. And he said come on. Let's go It was the most wonderful thing though. I got to know Evelyn. I wrote a song called good hand and the character in that Song live by simple ethic you put the load I and let us take care of itself. One day a man wrote to me out of the blue and he told me how much that song reminded him of a driver. He knew who used to run out of the PUMPIDO market a guy who went by fast Freddie. I said you're not going to believe this but I knew Fred. He was part of the inspiration for that song as it turns out this man. Also new Freddie's daughter Evelyn. Someone I hadn't seen since he was just a little girl next thing. I know I get a message from Evelyn herself. I mean what are the chances of that Evelyn would later? Tell me that her dad's heart had simply exploded days after his last run. It literally run himself to death. Like a Racehorse. Always looking after the load. It's one thing to write songs about this kind of thing. But Freddie Freddie was the song now you dark a drawl hard pound Hannah keys you to your face for the U. and Santa and squanded and code and how y'All ran Trad Wall Big Play Hello Longman Solas and fall the Pash man standing. Say a good hand. Pay Run on Tandy's Just turn Australia Man There. And it was for ma. It was all too twin turbos hound and cross the clear Santa Rosa Sky Brown Bob. And how it this was to be fat or an John. Do over the road. Pit crew includes producer and sound designer and costs and contributing producers Lacy Roberts. At transmitter media are editor from overdrive magazine is Todd. Dell's our digital producer is Erin Wade. Our project manager is Audrey mortgage and our executive producer for radio TOPI Is Julia Shapiro? I'm long-haul Paul. All the music on the show is by in caution myself featuring performances by Michael Gilbert. Ronstadt Travis the snake man. Ramic Terry to socks. Richardson Titian Lingo. Jim Whitehead Jan Grant. Golic the late Great Roger Clark and Mr Andrew Marshall out additional engineering by Jeff Templeton at Milk House studios and dining in muscle shoals Alabama and a very special you to Damon skull for connecting me with Evelyn over. The road is made possible by support from the folks. I've worked for for a really long time. Muller trucking now celebrating over thirty years of safe and reliable transportation for the food industry for more information. Check out molar. Trucking DOT com over. The road is a collaboration between overdrive magazine and Pierre XS Radio Tokyo a collection of the best independent podcasts around look for overdrive magazine and overdrive online dot com where you can read. Todd's Channel Nineteen blog here. The overdrive radio podcast an explorer news business and lifestyle reporting about trucking. You can find over the road on line at over-the-road dot. Fm shared to follow us on all those usual platforms to facebook twitter and Instagram at over the road pot. You can see some of my videos on Youtube by looking for Lonzo Hall Music. Thanks for listening and hanging in to the end of the run. I'll be back soon with one. More episode of over the road in the league they lost in it was money was in palm some trash drain just to see the glass and the Black Shylock. See him down a you string. There's a road called A. B. Land have fifty four out an hour the narrow fashion where the flatlands they start to roll their the nats road deadly quiet till you blast the win. Don't be travel assists Grover raising to the hall here never see again radio X.

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Channel One-Nine #7

Over the Road

14:24 min | 1 year ago

Channel One-Nine #7

"If you like give sound opinions at try each week noted music critics. Jim Dear Goddess and Greg Kat Review New releases discuss classic albums and conduct exclusive interviews with artists across musical genres. Sound opinions is a space for music. Lovers fans and critics alike to share in the conversation. Sound opinions listen critically download sound opinions wherever you get your podcasts. It's Todd Deals from overdrive magazine here Folks Today. Paul's on the line with me. You know what I'm might have to run off these chickens fresh off a run back Indiana farmhouse. I don't know if you can hear the chickens. Todd Mighty Ramon well caved any suggest a window. Call it old home week here for this final edition of the Channel. One nine special. We're going to hear about managing pets and staying fit about hitchhikers hand signs and more. Oh while rolling down the road on eighteen wheels so get around you brought. The questions falls gets managers. Hey guys My Name Is Ethan. Horn I am from Huntsville Texas and I have a question for you guys so remember going down the road a lot of the Times. I'll see those stickers on the back of trucks and say how's my driving and they have a phone number and what I do when I see those guys. I'll call it that number and then I'll put on the voice you know. I'm from Trinity Texas. Which is a little bit of a smaller town and I'll get on the phone there and I'll be like. Hey this truck here. It's driving real good. I've never seen a truck driver driving like this. They're letting people cut him off. They're doing all sorts of niceties and I've just seen that often before and I need to make sure someone knows that this is one of the best darn truckdrivers. I've ever seen but my question I guess is like do the truck drivers ever hear that That's pretty awesome. That's you do that so all the years. I've been out here. I guess I've gotten to compliments that my boss has relayed to me. I've gotten two complaints while now one complaint it turns out. One was a case of mistaken identity. The other was well justified. You might say I used to dry for a guy who was pure outlaw. The call me when I was in Missouri and they wanted me to to overnight the load and show I was flying through Columbia Missouri and got got called on Those conversations are very rare Sort of like you know the art of war a general goes unnoticed. He's usually a good general. I think the same applies for truckers. So if you never get a call you're doing your job. Hey this is Ryan some concord North Carolina. My question was. How do you guys stay? Fit Away on the road all our sitting there truck. Thanks man great podcasts. Yeah in years past the folks I work for. They made me accustomed by crack. You could really do some great mountain biking on the road and was the ranked on the back of the cab. Yeah Yeah they they fabricated. It's format today. Paul's exercise rituals revolve around walking. Ideally a mile or more a day though. It doesn't always happen and accessibility is a constant issue. Paul once love to stop Tennessee exit. Four fifty one on I forty. That's where I forty intersects the Appalachian trail and it's just a great low impact aerobic workout. Putt as has happened a lot in Tennessee. You can't park there anymore. And I'm sure they had their reasons but that was one of the the real joys of life on the road was to be able to to hike the Appalachian trail once once or twice a week if he wanted to. Hi My name's Kathy. Only I'm calling from acton Massachusetts I have occasionally seen truckers with dogs within our casts. And I'm wondering how common it is for Chris to take their pets along. And how has it thinks it's just more and more common? Our company is dog friendly pet friendly. And it's if you WANNA take the hard line and not allow dogs. You better have a really good payback edge. I mean just imagine wanting to be a female trucker out there on the road and wanting to take a mile and a half walk at the end of your shift and a truck stop so you see a lot of cool. Dogs had accompany women truck drivers. But it's it's it's a really a committee you've got to remember things. Paul has learned that listen firsthand. I had a dog once that I rode with and his name was ranger. A wiry mix well one day ranger locked me out of the truck and and I forgot to have my key with me and it had one of those side windows in the passenger door for increased visibility so I busted that side window to get into the truck and then then I had to go load grapes at the port of Glouster in Jersey and I had like my Laundry bags stuffed in front of that That little window and ranger got out twice. While was on the dock loading the grapes. And I don't know if you've ever been like yelled at by a New Jersey Port Authority cobb wise but that was the last time I took ranger and as Kathy implied in her question. It's not just dogs out there I've met folks with snakes Gerbils hamsters. Lots of cats. And I know one owner operator the last I saw him how to co-pilot mccaw in the drug not discount the rest of you guys but this next one comes from a woman who might just be my number one favorite questioner. Hey My name is lady and I'm from Louisiana and I have so many questions and and I might have to call back if it kept me out. But let's say we've answered some of your questions. Katie in other episodes. But this I think was your first one. Why do drivers get annoyed by kids or saul making the white honcker horns sign like that annoying trucker? Katie I just want to give you a shout out. We all of us at Radio. Topa appreciated your calling and you were one of our first call in listeners. And we when we heard from you we saw. Maybe we've got something here and let me just say this anybody. That won't honk their horn for a kid. Not My talker Again thorough exceptions to that. Well I I don't do it in town Like if you're in town like stoplight. You don't WanNa do that. You know you. So it's like when you're on the highway data when it's cool to give the air horns sign. This is NASA's calling from Los Angeles California. I was wondering what you guys think of hitchhikers. My friends and I just from New York Los Angeles a few years ago and it was one of the best experiences of my life. Thank you so much. Have a great day. Well I used to pick up. Hitchhikers spent a long time though. There can be pretty strict rules on this company drivers but Beck when Paul was an owner operator. He picked up whoever he liked. I guess you just rely on your gut instinct on that. And he met some pretty interesting characters that way. I met a guy one time and Robert Stale Alabama had truckstop stop in the TV room. Who is trying to get to wildwood Florida to become chrome polisher chrome polishers or truck detail? Men are kind of a trucking subculture unto themselves. Plenty make a living out of it but for others it side work hanging around the larger truck stops to try and make a little money shining bumpers and rims. That might have been what this gentleman was after this is kind of one of the wildest things he didn't make it as a chrome polisher which we know because just several days later. Paul ran into that. Same hitchhiker again on Commonwealth Avenue in Jacksonville Florida. Sitting on the ground happen well pretty rough over there and got some pretty rough cash over there and they. They didn't want me sleeping on the ground so I thought well I got this interstate. Low to plants. I can pay a little to help me through this load off. Paul took the would have been chrome posher on the road again. This time is a paid helper. And I was really living frugally. At the time I had four kids at home and my wife was a stay at home mom and like I was like eating a lot of cereal back then and like after a few days ago palm kind of seems like you're struggling now. Well thank of a homeless hitchhiker failed. Chrome polisher takes pity on you. Maybe you are struggling and So he I think he He decided to to to find greener pastures. And but we parted as friends. Truth is I don't hear a whole lot stories like that talking to truckers today not stories that are from recent times anyway. Feels like picking up hitchhikers and hitchhiking itself. There's another one of those aspects of life on the road. That's faded with time. Okay last question Maradona. But I'm a young mother and for years and years and years. I have always thought of driving a truck long distance as kind of the ideal thing that I could do. Hasley when I'm older and my kids are grown. Is that crazy? I don't know So how does one get into tracking especially later in life and especially when there are a woman Thank you well. Ask a great question and we do see a lot of people who choose trucking as a second career and They actually become some of the best truckers out here because they have this wealth of life experiences that they can bring you know. It's a really good question. What would be the best path into trucking right now? I'll just jump in here to say you can train for your commercial driver's license in both informal and more formal ways like at a community college or private driving school. If you're trying to find good schools in your area look up. The professional truck driver institute. They've got a guy on their site after you get the CDL though becomes the hardest part for most. It seems like the entrance to trucking has always been difficult and fraught with a hard initiation period. There's a German expression all on fung swear. All Beginnings are hard and be prepared to have a difficult first year. If if you're serious about it and be prepared to be able to weather that that's all I can really say. Thanks for all your questions. In hanging with me through these mini episodes. I hope you've enjoyed it as much as I have. A special thanks. Here are silent partner. Mixmaster producer Ian costs. Hey Mr Bar hoffer will be back next week with our final episode drop into the Twenty nineteen great American trucking show where we explore the automated driving technology. That seems to be on every drivers. Mind late we'll also check back with a few of the folks we've interviewed over the course of the series to see where they're at today. Gentlemen nine specials a feature of over the road and produced by costs and myself. Todd deals with support from Palmar. Hofer Lacy Roberts and Julia Shapiro if you really want to get into the weeds of chocking vimy on channel nineteen the blog I keep it overdrive. Online dot com slash channel. One nine cool. I think we're done there. Gosh there were more questions Okay I'M GONNA call back when I think of the thanks for listening to over the road. Another Radio Tokyo show. You might like is articles of interest. This is the podcast from the folks who bring you ninety nine percent invisible so you can expect everything you love about that show. Except instead of tackling the entire design world articles of interest is about what we wear and season to tell stories of luxury. Like how much a diamond does really worth. How men'S PANTS MIMIC NUDITY. And what happens inside the secret companies that make designer perfume and articles of interest a show about what we wear? She's into people. Don't realize it's fantasy. You always this thing that you have to work extra hard get silk. No-one dresses like a king anymore. How you make money doesn't really make money. Love there. Lots of things that we take for granted. The would of been considerate luxuries. Find out more from nine nine P I dot org radio.

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Our Punjabi Brothers

Over the Road

36:12 min | 1 year ago

Our Punjabi Brothers

"Interstate five and highway ninety nine gridlock. Today hundreds of truckers carried out a rolling protest Sacremento California twenty seventeen on almost one thousand semis take to the road. And one of the largest demonstrations by truckers ever be wanting to open their eyes and see what's going on and stop all this government interference and all of it led by an unlikely crew of Turkish job. Music blasting is Tim. They had like T. A. Fried potatoes for everybody. That was driving through so everybody was taking the rest of the eggs and they were just hand them to end their truck today on the show. We're circling back to a subject. We've been following since the start of the series new regulation that would go into effect December. Eighteenth forcing them to use electronic logging devices electronic logging divide he'll de automatically records time. Drivers spends behind the wheel of the devices. When put them on fourteen hour timers creating danger when the time runs out the coming at it from another side? It's the story of how a Community of immigrants banded together in the face of government regulation became a force to be reckoned with in the trucking industry I'll while changing a few heart process yellow turban on and he has that bright blue peterbilt and he gets out where I forget what they call it but it looks just like a sheet and it's the same color as its truck now. Slide while Radio Tovia and overdrive magazine. This is over the road. I'm on hall Hello before we get rolling today. We have a favor to ask over. The road is conducting a survey. That will help us learn more about our listeners. And we'd really value your feedback. Could you just a few minutes to tell us about yourself and share some things you like about the show after you listen to this episode? Of COURSE PLEASE VISIT SURVEY. Dot P R x dot org slash over the road to take the survey today. That's survey that P R x dot org slash over the road. Thanks so much. Hey Everyone L. HP here with a timely message. Healthcare workers are currently facing a dire shortage of masks and other personal protective equipment. They are fighting for our lives and we need to protect. There's so if you have make our want to request P P please visit get us P P dot org. Thanks for listening. I remember first seeing in job drivers out on the road in nineteen ninety seven. I was loading hand olives at a warehouse near Redding California and there were these three dudes there and they were all wearing turbans. And that's fine. That's all well and good to each his own until they got assigned to their doctors before I got mine now. This happened at a time. When trucking was changing rapidly deregulation had pretty much. Dropped out the floor on freight rates and good jobs disappearing at the same time more and more immigrants were coming into the industry to pick up the slack. It was a perfect recipe for resentment and prejudice me. I wasn't making squad on that load of Olives and here are these people from God knows where further to pressing the freight market and while we're at it let's just go ahead and load them. First am not going to lie to you. That was limit. The sad truth is that when times get tough. A trucker has a reflexive tendency to blame some other trucker for his troubles. And when you're white male and have enjoyed everything those privileges confer and yet you're barely making it. The easiest trucker to blame is the one who looks and talks differently than you. We tend to kick downward rather than band together and address the powers that be. And that's what makes the story retelling today so remarkable it starts out in a pristine suburban neighborhood of California's Central Valley at the home of been the at wall. Truth is I wasn't the one ring that doorbell. At this exact moment I was waiting on a load of yogurt pound for Detroit but we were lucky enough to team up with a reporter at K. Q. E. D. public radio named Alex Hall. Then anyhow Bene- gives Alex a quick tour of the House. This is actually bedroom. Sun Helps out. Yeah I'm always on the truck. Oh Bender's two sons or six and three. Now the Batman the Black Panther. He has a black parents that blanket but downstairs. Two living room is beautifully decorated with ornate wooden furniture and religious imagery that that's the ten gurus and that's the Golden Temple. That's like I cleveland of the Vatican her family photos everywhere mob in a strange kind of twist. Benda actually got into trucking so he could spend more time with his kids before I was working in pizza in like I was a general manager but in pizzas. Weekends are the busiest. So you always after like Saturday and Sunday in with trekking. At least I got my two three days off to spend completely with my kids. So when Benny was out on the road he might be gone for days at a time but he can also be home on the weekends. You know so that that was the main reason I got in tracking. Surprisingly it was hard in the beginning he was gone. Most of the time been just wife is home to out wall. She had just had their first child. Benefit went out on the road so hard but the kids know what their dad does. Or you know how is because most of our family members are in trucking business and this is part of the reason we wanted to talk to Benda because just a couple of years. After getting his commercial driver's license he found himself at the very heart of a family a community and eventually a movement of Punjabi truck drivers. Like if you wanted to count my street and like three neighboring streets here the I could probably name like fifteen people one of my uncles. My Dad's brother lives four houses down one side of the street and my dad's other brother lives three houses down the other side of the street. And we're all truck drivers you know. It's like thirty thirty. Two House subdivision maybe forty but like all the houses here that Indians except for one family. Everybody has at least one truck driver you know and the House right there with a car backed up in the driveway. Those are all Indians. Also triggers bend. It takes Alex for a little drive around town and it's like this pretty much wherever they go that guy. He's a truck. Driving School read trek from the last name because the thought and then when they talk to those drivers. It's the same story all over again my father-in-law he's also from driver. Let's see my brother. My cousins uncles. My brother he used to dispatch eighty percent of the men and has his last. Drivers suggested job as you go into. Trucking are in fact overwhelmingly meal. I HAVE UNCLES COUSINS. Brother-in-law's friends we decide when we are India. I know maybe over like five. Six hundred truck drivers they stopped for lunch turned out. Even the owner of the restaurant. Used to be Tucker. Yeah yeah deliver. Residents buffer truckers. He'll deliver precise figures on this but we're talking. Many thousands of Indian American truck drivers in California alone and many of those drivers trace their roots back to a single state of India called Pun job. So Punjab is a state in northern India but as far as the culture that's necessity goes when you talk to job person. They will not identify as Indian. They will identify as part of what sets this region. Apart is a sick religion which originated in Punjab about five hundred years ago. There's there's six thirty and there's Hindus there and spend tells it. This religious divide helps explain the rise of Punjabi. Trucking in America August the Fifteenth Nineteen Forty Seven Independence Day for India. You have to go back to the partition of India at the end of British colonial rule. Okay so like in forty seven. When India played the feeling was that the Hindu Guy India and the Muslims got Pakistan six. Got Nothing so this feeling kept building building building building and then here comes as one leader in all the six or falling on Carbon Chunkier. Giovanni has become well known for edging. Village seeks to abstain from drink and drugs and not bother getting very popular so the Congress Party the ruling party India at the time they devised attack on the Golden Temple which is like the holiest shrine of the six being the peer of Manhattan tension. In the which is a northern state of India where attack ended with Indian soldiers actually storming the temple itself illegal leaving hundreds maybe even thousands of people dead including the leader of this movement after Nineteen eighty-four and in retaliation to six. They were bodyguards for Indian Prime Minister Indira Gandhi. At the time they shot and killed her tensions between the majority and the Sikh community of spilling over into violence so from nineteen eighty-four started a sick genocide spree and belly if they would see any Sikh youth sick man had a sick child they were killing four year. Old Kids so seek people would kill street. It was burned alive in that copy. A lot of people escaped from India. You know to save their lives. So that's why there was a large influx of seeking migration in the eighty s late eighties. Miller was actually born here in California but his dad. Gr- male outlaw came to the US in the eighties in nineteen eighty three that was before the assassination of Indira Gandhi in the violence against the six. He actually came because he married an Indian woman who lived in the US. All the youngest ever dreamed to go up route that time and the early eighties. There was only a very small Punjabi community in the Central Valley the first stone. We are used to move in. Renton I was. I only one Indian index down but not for law. My Dad came in eighty three. My GRANDPA game ninety two. My grandma ninety five one among those ninety nine my dad's sister in two thousand three and his other brother edge down six within like twenty three years. He had his whole family here now. I have nobody. On my Dad's side of the family in India at all like a lot of Punjabi emigrants their families settled in the area around Livingston California about an hour north of Fresno. No you'd see every Tony Livingstone to Indian temple because committee come over here from Mendez. Dan saw the same trend. Play out with Punjabi chuckers any eighty three. There were few. He could basically count them it. I I know their names. Even letcher brothers share goal tracking parking. Not More than forty people driving truck Indian people and eventually he would become one of them. Okay so when my dad first came from India he was clean shaven. He had a mustache and he got a job with a Conagra banquet. Foods as a quality control supervisor. But this shutdown in ninety three by that time Ben's Dad had decided to grow out his beard and hair as you may know this is one of the basic practices of the sick faith and also. Why many six whether hair and Turban? So he would apply for jobs and he would tell them. Oh six years seven years experience as a quality control supervisor of a badges degree Yadda Yadda. Ya know where he's been. They see my beard and they said over. We'll take about it and he didn't get a job anywhere so after just going place to place three or four months. He went to the local college and he got his license through there. That's why I have to get trip. Braver license. Trucking was simply that job he could get time. The pay was good. Nobody cared about the beard. There's no other option. It's a story. We heard many times from other Turkish and Benda's community when we come from other country we have nothing so at that moment. Either you could farm or you could gas station. Or they'll drive a truck that was working in the store making like fifty per month star driving up stopping lack of seven thousand dollars per month. You don't need a bachelor's degree to start making you know four five thousand dollars a month. It's good yes good. Pay The same reality exists for a lot of recent immigrants for someone with limited education English language skills. Trucking is about as good of a job as you can get. Maybe the only job you can get. The pay is decent which could explain why some estimates almost twenty percent of truckers in America. Today were born in another country but part of what makes the Punjabi Story. So remarkable is how this community has embraced trucking with many becoming owner. Operators of small fleet owners are even running their own trucks. There's actually like his whole genre of Punjabi Turkey sausage pancakes or Japan. And there's a lot of videos look like your average hip hop video except everyone is dancing around tractor trailers instead of exotic cars. It all feels a little bizarre to an old folk like me but they make trucking look pretty cool man. I got a little cousin. He just turned sixteen. You know he doesn't even have a car license but he's like marking his calendar until he turns eighteen and driving like local. Here's the thing about Benda. He really doesn't buy into the whole. Cool factor trucking for him. It's just a job tracking is like the last option like okay. You can't do anything else. They'll be a truck driver. Yoga make good money which raises the question. Why is bending driving a truck at all? I mean he was born here in the US. He's a native English speaker as a four year college degree and as it turns out two years of law school under his belt. Yes I did. Go to law school for two years but Back when I was young and dumb I gotta to misdemeanor. Dui's side couldn't take the bar exam until they were off my record. That's how Benda ended up working in pizza restaurant and ultimately driving a truck like everyone else in this story and Mike Me. Trucking gave him a way out of trouble at at that time. It seemed like the best way for me to provide for my family to where I was. You know bringing in a good amount of money that was in twenty fifteen which happens to be the same year. The federal government first announced a new mandate that would soon require virtually all truckers to run an electronic log. Opposition to the new rules started to build right away including within the Punjabi community and Benda found himself in a unique position. So they're doing all these videos in Punjabi and they tell me like hey you know you went to law. School badges do it in English in English and I mean that thing gained so much action games there was about a thousand trucks and the rolling protests after the break. Benda here own never meant to be a trucker in the first place. They comes the spokesman for the largest jerker protests in generation. All right got to pick it up right where we left off with Binda. He drops out of law school guesses CDL biases own truck and that same year the feds announced a new E. L. D. mandate for me. It just like you know you would lose more hometime the flexibility. To be honest with you you know. Remember that on paper logs. You basically regulated yourself. This means you could easily take an extra thirty minutes onto your work day or maybe take a nap in the middle of your shift. Then make up time later no one but the most. Hawkeye inspector would know the difference and sometimes those little liberties could mean a lot. You might go to church on Sunday morning. Maybe linger a little longer at the family. Barbecue are in business case. Make It home at night to see your newborn son. He felt like electronic logs. With take that away you know because I I my. My Dad was a single parent when he raises. I played football in high school. I played Indian. Sport Calls Goodbye. And my dad never came to new practices. I want to be there for that stuff. I don't want to miss his childhood as the start date for the L. D. mandate approach into realized. He wasn't the only one who felt this way. There's an APP called WHATSAPP writing. So we have trucking groups on their n each group has like two hundred and fifty six people in it so you know all these videos started coming out when she pleases and then people started saying you know what can I do not promise. And they went out and put like flyers truck stops rest their yaser like Indian restaurants at the temple where we know people and we just getting started getting such a big responses today. The latest started getting one hundred calls a day. Like what are we gonNa do where we need to go? We need to do you know so in a few of the other people who were sharing videos decided to call a meeting we met at the first six templates in California in Stockton and the response. There was just astonishing. We had maybe three hundred and fifty people there. Okay so we. We met there and we sat down with. We made like a five member committee and like I was kind of made in charge of like the media. Because your English is the best you know so you talked to all like the TV. The radio the newspaper. New Regulation Log expenses and Joe Machine protesting the electronic logging devices. Punjabi network linked up with the national protest plan for the first week of October. Two thousand seventeen called operation black and blue in California. The event kicked off with rally at the state capital in Sacramento when we got to Sacramento you know in front of the State Capitol building. I mean we had maybe five six hundred people out there as right as a drivers. Get Dignity respect you speech out there you know. I myself was English but mostly. They're in Punjabi Mahamdou Electron Eq log book and it was just like kind of trying to wake these sleeping people up like look. Think you know today. So that was Sacramento Bakersfield and then we have Fresno on the third day and then we had one day off and then the next day we were supposed to meet up in Yuba city. This was the culmination of the whole action. A rolling protest. Hundreds of truck showed up to participate. They had numbers printed out from like one hundred and fifteen hundred and we'd put seven hundred and eight hundred numbers on windshields there at the temple. Parking lot itself and many other showed up to ride along so it was a thousand trucks in the protest but in reality the number was probably like you know three or four thousand people that park. They've tried to I a massive protest. Shutdown drugger join a nationwide rally money. This is where per bend. At least the whole protest began to unravel once the freeway. Then people started parking on the side or slowing down. The protests had no official permits so the trucks ended up scattered over miles with no clear organization. Some drivers decided to just stop in the middle of the highway to get attention blocking traffic altogether. And that's when the news helicopter came out. Go right there. There's somebody actually on the freeway in front of that trump standing and then that's when the police started ticketing people protest to that one truck being pulled over someone has gone. Adhd got a ticket for having the the number in the wind. Should you know butt and in Norway at all was that part of the protest to shut down their freeway and knew that the whole LD protests left. Benda feeling well pretty bitter. He had helped to build a movement but he couldn't actually hold it together when they finally got out on the road. I have to be honest. Though I kind of envy. What Benda his Punjabi brethren were able to accomplish out there in California I mean. Do you know how hard it is to get to truckers to agree on anything even the price of diesel. So as far as I'm concerned if you can get a thousand truckers and point them in one direction Benda Atwal. You could just be the next. Jfk There's an interesting code to this story. Though which is how those protests affected the trucking community itself in a way this may be the most lasting impact of operation black and blue before we did the black and blue the PAJAU truckers got hardly any respect from like I mean if you if you think truckers predominantly Caucasian right like white males that are drivers and with their like the old school truckers. And they they called. They needs rag. Heads you know diaper heads Arabs and you name it they call them that but after the black and blue after you know the thousand plus showing they started calling the Punjabi Brothers. The sick brothers. You know they'll be like facebook pulses of people say something bad about a city crippen jobe and before. Sap responded like twenty white people responding gay. You know they're not all like that. We met these people. They're good. They got the same problem as us. One of those changed. Hearts belong to our old friend. Mike Landis when we interviewed Mike for our very first episode at the truck show he told us how his own attitude towards the sick and Punjabi drivers has changed having grown up watching nine eleven on TV in biology class to me if someone had a big beard looked Middle Eastern and had a turban on an ear crap That was wrong way to look at it. I knew it down but just always stuck in my head right up until the L. D. protests began I went to DC in October seventeen and we decided to go to Constitution and talk to the public the same week that bend and company were organizing the rolling protests in California Mike in a few dozen or so other truckers park their rigs along constitution avenue near the White House but a group of Punjabi drivers showed up in D. C. Too and one of the leaders stepped out of his truck with the. Foale Turban and beard. Mike was well impressed. And I'm thinking to myself and I'm like man if I was in a place where most people probably look at me and we're like Oh my God and he's still getting outwear net. 'cause he's proud to wear it and he's here with us. That kind of says a lot and just like in California. The East Coast Punjabis had completely out organized. Every other faction of truckers. You know he had put together with a few of the others. These vans and stuff that went around to the different states and picked up all these different. Sikh in Punjab drivers and stuff and they brought us food they would walk up to us and shake our hands and thanks for being here with our trucks. They outnumber US four to one. I guarantee you know they asked me like. Hey where are you from? And I'm like oh I'm from limits and they're like Oh yes to wait. What here they own. The pizza joint down the street from my house at the end of it. I was sitting on a bench watching looking at the Washington monument. And this whole thing has just been this crazy weird emotional eye-opening you're already they're fighting for something you believe in kind of and and then you know. I've always had his idea of these people and just totally feel like a complete piece of crap for having us idea for so long in my life. We talked to them. They want some type of action because they come from areas of the world where if they try and protest they're liable to be killed for one and for two. They've been in suppress type of situation where they're like. You have the opportunity to fight for something that's right like that's your right as a citizen here to be able to do that and you're not going to stand up and do it are you crazy. And they're they're hundred percent right a few days after we interviewed. Binda sick families from all around Livingston gathered together at their local temples. Beneteau is out driving that night but his wife and children when there was music fellowship and just like at the black and blue protests. Plenty of food. This has been falls on the same day as the valley. One of the major Hindu holidays divides feelings light so it was just like it's called the festival of lights but for six the day has a special significance and. Benda told us the story our sixth goon teacher his father was being. You'll also like so. Many of the stories shared begins in a time of oppression and resistance. They were trying to kill them. And the SICU was executed for refusing to pursue his faith and so young son rose to become the new Google and at the age of fourteen US imprisoned in Fort for two years because his father and he wouldn't convert so then under event of the valley. The emperor told them okay. You know for you. And they were also fifty two kings from like neighboring jurisdictions or whatever that were imprisoned in the same cell and he told them as many people can hold onto your shirt and follow you out on go So what good did was. He was only fifteen sixteen. He told his people to sell him a shirt with fifty two coattails so all the king's grab one and they all followed him out so it's called Bundy short like prisoner released it. It's all like job. Extended flock together. You know we're really close knit community if our own prisoner release is ever going to come for all the truckers out there who feel trapped by regulation and surveillance that I might just expect to see one of our Punjabi brothers leading the march man. I hope they'll save coktail for me. And in case you're wondering if those protests ever deadly to any actual change. The short answer is yes. We'll on that and our final episode. Because it's actually been playing out as we've been working on this series but we're not done yet and our next episode. I'm going to introduce you to some of the greatest characters and storytellers. I've ever met out here. We're calling it long haul Paul's long hall of fame and well radio. Topi is pretty much letting inmates running the asylum on this one so on our penalty episode. I'm going to pass the MIC around. And introduce you to some folks who are simply my heroes are over. The road. Pit crew includes producer and sound designer Ian costs contributing producers. Lacy Roberts a transmitter media and for this episode field producer Alex Hall at Acuity. Our editor from overdrive magazine. Todd dill's but I have to say the title editor really doesn't capture. What todd has done for this show? Todd is the one who really stuck his neck out for me and turn just basic wise guy trucker into an actual writer no water but my wife. Denise should ever have to be a traffic cop in my head but Todd Man. He does all right anyhow. Our digital producer is Aaron. Wait our project manager Miss Audrey Markevic in our executive producer for radio. Topa is Julie Shapiro. I'm long-haul ball. All the music on this show is by Ian Costs and myself featuring performances by travis. The snake man wants Terry to SOx Richardson Tissue. Mingle Jim Whitehead. Jan Grant. Call it the late. Great Roger Clark and Mr Andrew Marshall Additional engineering by Donegal it and the muscle shoals music marketing special. Thanks to Julie Kane K. Q. E. D. who connected us with Alex and all the other folks at the station who supported this collaboration. Also Jug me sing Mac at PR expert guidance and insight on this one and a deep bow to our friend. Bend for taking the time to talk to us. We know just how much he values day at home. What the family. So the fact that he set that day aside for this show means a lot over. The road is made possible by support from the folks. I've worked for for Really Long Time. Muller trucking now celebrating over thirty years of safe and reliable transportation for the food industry for more information. Check OUT MULLER TRUCKING DOT COM OVER. The road is collaboration between overdrive magazine. Npr XS Radio Tovia a collection of the best independent podcasts around look for overdrive magazine at overdrive online dot com to read todd and Caroline Magar Mason's contemporaneous account of the West Coast Yo- d- protests in two thousand seventeen search into the limelight sick truckers in America. While you're there catch todd's channel nineteen blog here the overdrive radio podcast and more while you're at it seriously. The staff at overdrive are truly first rate people and the fact that I'm even associated with that publication still blows me away you can find over the road online at over the Road Dot F. And be sure to follow us all those usual platforms to facebook twitter and Instagram at over the road pod. You can see some of my videos on youtube by looking for long haul all music. Thanks for listening hanging in till the end of the run. We'll be back next week with more stories from over the road. Radio community acts.

California India US Benda Benda Alex Hall overdrive magazine America Punjabi Brothers Golden Temple Indira Gandhi facebook Central Valley Dot Fresno Radio Tovia Redding California todd
Diet Prada: Fashion Watchdog of the Internet

The Barneys Podcast

23:53 min | 2 years ago

Diet Prada: Fashion Watchdog of the Internet

"This is the BARNEYS podcast I'm not too gory and today I will be talking to Tony Leo and Lindy Schuyler. You may not be familiar with their names. You're definitely familiar with their instagram. Account Diet Prada Diet product the explanation fast company called them two of the year's most creative people in business and for good reason they post witty well researched take downs of fashion houses designers and celebrities knocking each other <music> off they get accounts shut down and they get designers to pull pieces from their collections that just weren't right but they've also amplify the voices of smaller designers getting ripped off by major clothing companies and they are not afraid to call out the racism them and cultural appropriation rampant in the industry. I'd heard of Dire Prada and thought their work was really interesting but it wasn't until I turned up in their feed myself that I realized the true extent of their reach. Luckily they weren't calling me out for copying someone it was when I was misidentified invoked magazine and they did what diet product does they called out vogue on the mistake and their lack of representation. The account now has over a million followers and they've become real people of influence in the fashion industry which is why I was really interested to sit down and talk to them about what diet product has become. I don't so so so thrilled that we are here. <hes> we start off every episode asking what you're wearing today but I also want to ask why I you have more of a story. That's what we should really talk about. My Rob Simmons Calvin Klein Firemen Jacket full-blown full-blown fireman jacket. It's like a fireman opera coat though like I'm pretty obsessed with it die soon like Berryman that I thought you said I could have it okay. No I leave it to Norbury me and my green is on record. What about you? Why are you wearing what you're wearing? I actually just bought this yesterday at Barney's not specifically for us. It's Balenciaga pink shirt. It's like super cropped. I think like models asleep so it'd be like three quarters but on me it's normal because I'm not like super tall but I have a thing for interesting shirts and it's pink. Both of you look so bright today. I'm so excited so how would you define diet products voice and role in the fashion industry witty sarcastic educated fourteen year old gossip girl girl. Yes you know I think it's it's a very honest. Platform is very personal regardless of what people think of the account or with how they've completed it because of the number of followers or the blue checkmark and he'd like like added sense of legitimacy that is or isn't there but you know we're just posting kind of like what we feel from the heart and also what what people want to talk about things that the industry is ignoring at large. It's a space where where everyone can come to talk about this and you know you have C._e._O.'s of luxury companies you have supermodels celebrities reading and engaging and the fact that like this discourses happening on our pages yeah like pretty incredible notable. Both of you started in design. Can you tell us a little bit about how your foundation and design lead you to here and if you would ever want to go back yeah starting in design I mean it was just like you know like I have a passion for fashion and going to school for Apparel Design Fashion Merchandising and textiles so I kind of amazed like ran. The gamut moved here and I was like I wanna do hats because I was my thing. I like to make them at home. I wound up getting a job at a hat design place. Smet Tony and the rest is history. Yeah I've also kind of like done. A lot of things I originally like was went to college for painting. Fine Arts was studying fashion history with this one professor professor and she was like you should write like she liked my writing and now I'm writing instagram captions. Hey get more reads in clicks than articles. Do sometimes like it's it's interesting because there's such a transition position now of how we consume content but the way that you write your captions are thorough and detailed and basically condensed articles. I'd actually like to know the first time you've heard people use the term like oh diet prod or like people using thing you as the standard as being in check yeah now there are so many articles with like these upstart on social media kind of advocacy call out accounts that say you know it's the Dire Prada of whatever but I remember like it was like a year and a half ago maybe that you actually called out like I think we just became like a verb but that's also rooted in the name itself so give us a little bit of briefing about the history of the name diet which comes from Diet Coke and Prada witches product so we when we met we were in a very diet coke heavy office but this is not always thought it was going to go okay go. It's kind of like an omnipresent beverage. I feel like in the fashion Shen industry which may or may not have been replaced by like lukewarm water these days so we are in this really diet coke heavy office like Diet Cokes are kind of just constantly everywhere and really diet coke is the original imitator because it's invitation coke brought to us as the original like she just is this amazing reinvent her and kind of both of our favorite obviously it was also like a period where where it was kind of experiencing a renaissance or it was a moment where like everyone was kind of referencing her collections like she had some like stellar collections. I mean she still does but there were motifs. Everyone was it's kind of like swiping from her liquid. You're still seeing the fallout I feel like around the time that we started the account from the Spring Twenty eleven collection which is one of my absolute favorites. How many people reach out to you for help or with tips every day? I I don't even know if we could count it. I would guess now it's probably in the hundreds to possibly thousands wow so try to read all of them. Yeah you have to like kind of filter through. It becomes really obvious when someone is just like I want in a little bit of press that comes with being on DP. It's you know they're saying they're being copied and it's just really like not a copy like I was Gonna ask specifically about the serious need of help. Do you ever feel like a sense of responsibility towards people who are coming to you for that kind of help because they really do feel like they're being wronged definitely and I mean we've seen some great effect from it to with people having to like remove stolen designs. It's it's kind of like David and Goliath story just like there's these the little guys in this big industry up against these you know huge people and design protection in illegal sense is very very lax so even if these people have the resources to bring up a legal case chances are you might not even really win anything at the end of it like the money payouts tend to be smaller. They might be able to take the product sound for sale but it can turn into a knockdown drag out battle and half the time. It's a jewelry designer that might be a team of two people against a multi million dollar conglomerate who has legal team or you've seen issues like that with H.. Zara in like a hard or things like how how do you how do we as consumers. Consumers work to elevate the smaller designers voices and work. I think just pay attention in tune in to the to Dire Prada and support them like chime into the comments that says so much I think when you know these brands see the the fenders see kind of how much engagement is happening like the pressure is really on them to respond and do the right thing and we've seen it happen so much with like target with anthropology but you know they do it again and again so oh and another tack to that is maybe you know if you see our post and you feel the strive to go. Write something nasty on the offending parties comment maybe go to the original designers page instead and follow them and leave a message support. If it's something you're into like let's have more positively into a positive frown upside down. You've seen the upsides of like this happened with target and Felix Dion who's acquire Mexican artists. They knocked off his our work for pride tee. You sure <unk> last year two years ago last year and he ended up getting so much traffic and sales on his page as a result so that's one way that you know everyone can show their support to aside from the comments. Is You know so as horrible as it is you end up drawing awareness to it and then that smaller designer and our artists gets more attention. Sometimes yes that way. It's a better outcome than if they even pursued it illegal substance. It's swifter more visible so people pay attention people remember. Do you ever end up having to work with like law enforcement on a situation like that or a reference you. I'm seeing our name pop up in like court documents hence as evidence for suits. I think like there's definitely like moments. Where like should we pose this but we always kind of like go ahead and do it? You know if we feel like it's probably true gut feeling a gut up feeling we're not just out there posting whatever information we get but I think it's just one of those different things in the social media age that we kind of our operating this ourselves and we don't have like we all are in fact checking checking and that type of thing so it's one of those you know at the end of the day. We're kind of like it's an opinion site. What is your fact checking process? I mean just research generally trying to not not only get to the bottom of the individual case that we're looking at the designers in question the history of their pieces but then also trying to draw on our own knowledge of have we seen this before from somebody else so they actually both looking at old mosquito or like something. That's an antique piece from a museum archive somewhere things like that and you've seen happen or somebody's like Oh this. They knocked off my friend. It's like your friend knocked off something. That's like at the met. How is it that you I mean? It's so it keeps people in awe to know that you have so much knowledge where you're able to look at a peace and be like Oh isn't that from this year by this designer is that all just both of US knowledge knowledge and history on fashion and art or are you still studying and learning and let me getting like it was just us running it but in the past like two years that it's exploded like we get so many tips now and we're learning so much about like a period that maybe weren't of interest for us before but we both definitely have our areas of focus you know like be at personal interest or something that we studied. We're really lucky 'cause we're are getting travel these days and that also means we've got kind of a wealth of fashion exhibitions and stuff and art exhibitions and things all over the world that when we travel we really tried to get every chance we have to squeeze those end because I think it is really important to. To keep expanding your view of what's out there absolutely travel costs a lot of money though and keeping with DP and the work that you do I mean it's obviously a fulltime job. How how how is it sustainable merch for now I t shirt several friends dieter MERCH DOT COM yeah we do some branded partnerships with museums and like fashion brands that have exhibitions exhibitions at museums or their own foundations but you know those are hard to come by? We end up turning down. Most things like there are some luxury brands that we're trying to figure out a way to work with but you know we kind of like are not ida yet but we're keeping our eyes on on each other and when you have done paid partnerships what's usually the response and reaction from your audience when it's a good fit and it's something that we feel like we've vetted out you get the occasional like hater who's like allie their impartial because they I need money to pay their rent and eat food and then we get a bunch of you need to pay rent and eat food. I know isn't it crazy product. Does it just let me say store at night. We're not real people. Obviously we spots that are managing this account yeah and how did you get connected to the product team originally because you also have a close relationship with them. That was a Milan right yeah. I was checking the D._M._Z. and we got a message from you know who and was like hey do you want to come to the show and we're like we're going back home right now. We're like literally almost at the airport. Lindsey was getting to get married like a week after you've had to get married. It's okay we would love absolutely to come to the product show but like we're at the airport and he's like stay there. We'll send a van for you and so proud of Van they kidnapped kidnap US and brought us back into Milan on not nervous at all not nervous at all but it was like in the car you cry. I maybe did cry. That's fried happy crying. Okay okay like to cry. This isn't like a bad sign. I just didn't know if you were like. I don't know what that done that. I still didn't know what was happening. Like mutual was my idol since like forever. I have like live journal accounts. Do you remember doing those those surveys whereas if you could be stuck on a stranded island Oh mine was always Tom Ford in nature. I feel like she's going to hear this and just laugh at that and just so yeah. Let's rent an island with her. We did briefly hopefully after the I think the show that we were at together I couldn't get a word out of my mouth. I am never at a loss for words. I was just like me took my heart. You got a little bit of lipstick. Ah CHICA gun like I thought I mean I felt like it was just such an honor to even like be speaking to her and just everything that she'd stood for and when we went to dinner and I said I went to go save her she likes stood up and it was a very awkward and tight and I was like she really didn't have to do that and went out of her way and it's one of those things that just makes you feel like wow this is a kind of homey space and it makes you feel like you can learn and be yourself and it's so great to be around people who can make you feel that way and then happen to be people who have really been on the forefront of pushing culture forward. I have a funny question. So do you remember the first time you came to New York. The reason I asked is because I remember. We're going to Newark and one of the touristy things to do is to buy knock off because here's the thing at the end of the day of course what you're doing is like the hard work to prevent that and educate people and call it out but I mean me me being from southern Maryland and coming to New York. I didn't even know what certain designers I just knew like that. We could get really cool bags for cheap in certain places in Chinatown in Canal Street and I just never realised the harm or the depth behind it so I'd love to hear if you have any knockoffs stories so my mom and my sister would come up here on vacation without me which is really funny looking back on it and they came up one time and I was like mom I want specifically specifically wanted the Murakami Cherry Pink Clam Shell Louis Vuitton backpack and she came back and she was like what we went to Prada because I know you really like Prada and I was going to get you a headband but it was four hundred dollars and I was like damn it but I got you a bag and I was like from Prada and it was Canal Street Apple Green Bowling bag probably which they just three launch yeah so I was like thinks I think I put it like in the back recommend closet. Just not me not me. The knockoff was just not it was just not me and it probably smelled like plastic. That's so great tone. You have to tell me knock off story so this is my sister in high school call. She was like super fashionable kind of like looked up to her. She still is she's so cute but yeah she was like super into fashion. We came to New York City. We grow up state and she ended up buying this like pink set set of knockoff for Saatchi shirt and pink and white zebra flares. I thought it was so cool at that time but it was a lot you've never owned knock off of anything ever for yourself. I have like pre DP Arab. I needed something functional and Nice. I was in China for a work trip and it was like around the Guangzhou market which is like super interesting to see. I've been to the knockoff market in in Shanghai to and it's honestly insane. Do they look real. Oh yeah are are they know. They're not well some of them. There's a thing called lignite production more gray market like overruns and sometimes as the factories will be like these bags of successful and we'd leftover material so we'll keep the assembly line open after official hours and and Real Nah come out the back door and get sold at these markets. Sometimes that's like one of the problems yes I think with fakes that does don't get talked about so much but the people that are bringing them in in mass a lot of the times they're having to use legal shipping channels because you can't ship bags internationally. It's against the law so they are using the same channels that drugs and weapons and human trafficking us so it's a larger problem beyond just like Oh flagware luxury brand lost out on some sales while so many people in this is a little bit of a random twists for so many people want to pay homage to the designers that have that that we've all looked up to so much and in today's world I think it's really hard to figure out where the balance between doing that and completely knocking somebody off and being disrespectful is how would you teach people to do it properly. It's an interesting question because it's kind of one of those like we always say. Almost everything we look at is also on a very case by case basis we do have some insight and some knowledge to into third relationship. The designers often have behind the scenes and sometimes it's like. I literally know that their friends so I am kind of more inclined to look at that as the Lens to like Oh that's the no mosh to some a mutual signatures over there at Marc. Arctic ups but then her show always say and they're both riffing on like referencing the same eras and things and it's just like she's always done it so strongly and so consistently that it's kind of certain things you have to walk away from it. It's like no product doesn't own Marabou feather. They just have always used to such a wonderful effect in the way that they use signature. It doesn't mean that other people aren't free to to play in that world. I think you know like at the very elise people like to know the source of inspiration so like just tell us like you know where it comes from. Do you have a message or something that you want dieters and non dieters to to know I feel like lately. It's just something we've been thinking. Talking about. A lot is <hes> consumption the thing that's emerged as kind of also important. It's like another tenant to why we do what we do and the over consumption that we're being driven to strive to. I think because of social coming together we should have a new outfit every week and everything like that we get people asking for tips on how to be more conscious and just you know we always say like develop your personal style and we know what you actually like know your taste learn more deeply about that. Pat I saw recently someone say like dealt by a piece unless you know you're gonNA wear it at least thirty times. Yeah I think that's great and yeah it's kind of like start defining yourself in finding your own place in your own voice within this. I think it's easier zero to make better choices yeah rather than like trying to be somebody else or trying to be some image because you feel like you have to. What about you Tony? What would you tell all of your dieters and the new dieters come in? I think they know this but I guess just know the power of speaking up and voicing opinion even if it's like a someone with two hundred followers that chimes in and just like says something that really resonates and you know the rest of the world can see and all of these people that work within the industry you can see it and it has real impact you know people don't think about it but I think our followers are are very woken and they get that their voice matters will you're a prime example of of building it up from the from the ground and paving your own way A. and amplifying voices that need to be heard so i WanNa thank you for the work that you do and also thank you for being so honest and open on this conversation <hes> and if anybody has any questions they can shoot you a note at Diet. I underscore Prada on instagram obviously because it's the only social media that anybody's using right now just kidding unless under with what your wearing wife Oh because I saw your shoes okay okay okay. I'm so excited. Thank you Tony for asking yeah so my shoes are the MU ballet slippers. They usually have like a lace up. I Love Love Love Love Ballet slippers. I've always loved them. I used to do ballet. I also Loki Heike Walk with my feet pointing out. I'm blame it on ballet so there's that these are like yeah. You'll see now so they're like Tan and then they have to black belt buckles over. I used to also have like a really emo goth phase when I got them knows like I just found shoes that were made for me anyway again. Tony Lindsey thank you so much. Thank you for bringing Diet Prada into this world of podcasting and I hope to hear thank you more same to you. You're amazing. You can follow me on instagram at Diet underscore PRACA. The barneys podcast is hosted by me nor Warri and produced by Barney's and transmitter media. This episode was produced by Jesse Glazer. The show is executive produced by Anna Dosage Gretta Cohn and me edited by Lacy Roberts and mixed by Rick Quan. If you like what you're hearing rate and review the show it really helps other people find us.

Smet Tony Prada Tony Lindsey US Barney Prada Dire Prada Milan Balenciaga Rob Simmons Calvin Klein Norbury Berryman Tony Leo New York Fine Arts Apparel Design Fashion Merchan professor barneys
Body Stuff with Dr. Jen Gunter

Breaking Beauty Podcast

34:43 min | 2 weeks ago

Body Stuff with Dr. Jen Gunter

"Hey breaking beauty. fam- jill here dropping into your feet in partnership with the ted audio collective so curling and i have mentioned on our show before that a bit of an unexpected events owed has made its way into our top five of all time and that was episode one four called vagina care. Do's and don'ts featuring dr john gunter she's an obgyn and often referred to as twitter's resident gynecologist. I think what really resonated with people about that episode and it did with us is. Dr jen's no bs approach to personal health and she really refutes a lot of the dubious claims that are out there so we talked about everything from vagina care one one and she even enlightened us about the word vagina itself in its meaning and she says it's always evolving and changing so we learned to live in our excited to share even more of dr jen's insights in a new podcast. We think you'll enjoy. It's called body stuff with dr jen contour. And it's from the ted audio collective in each episode. She bust the missed. That were told an sold about our personal health. So let's get into it and if you like what you hear find in follow body stuff with dr jen gunter. Wherever you're listening to this in joy. I'm dr jen gutter. I love science. And i he people twist it your immune system. These limits milk water seven days a week and there's a lot of twisted medical misinformation out there toxins literally one hundred. That's yet that's ridiculous chugging. A gallon of water means. you'll eat fewer calories. Oh so painful. We're exposed to medical mets whether we're looking for them or not. There are news stories. Instagram and facebook. Post fine pass. Twenty four seven tiktok twitter who has valid information. And who's just trying to sell you something. How do you sort the medicine from the may. I'm dr jen gunter. And i'm here to help from the ted audio collective. This is body stuff. I'm a doctor practicing oncologist. And i've made it my mission to give women the facts that they need to understand their bodies in my twenty five years of talking with patients. I've learned that medical misinformation is a problem for everyone and every single one of us is susceptible so this show is about debunking. Some of the stickiest myths out there. While helping you understand how your body really works today. Why you don't need eight glasses of water every day. Eight glasses of water today. We're going back in time to find the origins of that myth and then we're going to meet a kidney expert. Who's going to illuminate. Just how hard. Our bodies work for us to maintain our hydration. It works like an exquisitely designed atomic balance machine right. You need to keep everything in balance. But i i want to tell you about something that happened to me. When i was ten years old. It was a time in my life. When i got asked a lot about my urine and it ended up setting me on a path to become a doctor. It was the first good weekend of spring. Nineteen seventy seven in winnipeg manitoba. The son feels hot. And you're just rare and to get outside. I was messing around with my brother. Skateboard going down the street. And then all of a sudden i was flat on my back on the concrete. And i was in a terrible amount of pain. It felt like my insides. Were on fire the next day. I'm sure i didn't look now so we went to the pediatrician. Who took one look at me and called a general surgeon who took one look at me and sent to the emergency department. They gave me something called angiogram. And i remember the doctor pointing to the x ray screen explaining what he was seeing and of course just looked like a snowstorm to me. But that's when. I learned that when i felt my skateboard i'd ruptured my spleen. Good news was. I wasn't gonna need surgery but there was something else. It looked like i held hydrant. Infosys meaning my kidney was full of and i needed to see a pediatric urologist. He sat down in his consultation room and started to explain to my mom. What needed to happen. I could tell she was very confused. I think the doctor could tell us well and so he gestured to me and said hey you come over here. This is your body. You should know how it works. So i came over and i sat down. I traded places with my mom and he drew a little diagram. Many explained how the kidney works and what he thought was wrong and the tests that i was going to have to have and surgery that i was probably going to have to have as well when that doctor took the time to explain my body to me. It really helped me not feel scared or overwhelmed and that experience made me decide. I wanted to be a doctor. I love the science. And i wanted to be able to give to my patients that doctor gave me that day. That empowerment of knowing how your body works and how to use that knowledge to help improve your health. Eventually i did have surgery to remove my left kidney. I've lived most of my life with just one kidney the organ that's largely responsible for regulating our bodies hydration. But you wanna know something. None of my doctors ever told me to worry about how much water i was drinking. I graduated from medical school when i was twenty three. So i've been a doctor more than half my life and i've seen firsthand the problems that happen. When people get misconceptions about their health. And a lot of these misconceptions they start with the internet. I'm not one of those doctors who rolls her eyes. When our patient comes in with reams of advice from dr google. That tells me that my patient is engaged. She wants to learn but there are a lot of bogus recommendations out there and often they're being pushed by brands and influencers a lot of them. Sound like they're making sense in a sort of science ish way like the eight glasses of water a day thing. Hey were made of water. So why wouldn't we need lots of water but that's not science. So what's behind this. Myth how did we get to eight glasses of water a day anyway. There are a couple of potential origin stories. One is the paper from nineteen forty-five that suggests the body uses about eighty four ounces of water a day and there's another paper from one thousand nine hundred seventy four from a pair of nutritionists who recommended an equivalent of six to eight glasses of water. A for the body to function appropriately. But these papers became distorted over time. Mica bad game telephone these experts were recommending that we drink six to eight glasses of water a day on top of everything else they were saying. This is the of water. the body needs to function. but that water doesn't have to be water. You drink from a glass out of your tap. Water is in everything. Think about a breastfed baby. All their drinking is milk. The body is able to remove the water from the milk. So the baby never gets dehydrated in the same way once. We start eating solid food. Our bodies continue to extract water from everything we consume everything we eat or drink counts so the water in your app accounts the water. That's in the bread that you eat counts. Even coffee counts. Any fluid counts. Look i get. This is a real record. Scratch freeze frame moment for a lot of people but we don't just get the water. We need from plain water. And if you have one of those days where you just drink coffee all morning and you don't feel great. Maybe you're little headache key or a little jittery. It's not because you're dehydrated. Maybe you had a little too much coffee or you had it on an empty psych. If you like drinking six classes a glasses of water day and your doctor hasn't advised against that's probably fine. What i'm saying is that there's nothing medical about this number. We get to make choices about what we put into our body and this is one of those choices if you think about it just using common sense and putting the medicine aside does it seem realistic that we evolve needing to consume that much clean water every day in the span of human history access to clean plentiful. Drinking water is a relatively recent phenomenon and even today in many parts of the world accessing clean drinking water. Sadly isn't as easy as walking into your kitchen and filling up glass. It seems unlikely that our ancestors carried giant water bottles around with them at all times and yet the myths spread and spread and spread. But why is this smith so sticky it turns out there's a mix of factors including a little bit of intrigue and one particular culprit. The deserves a lot of blame the beverage industry. Sometimes warner just isn't draw. Tied rain unquenched. Thirst has become a chronic problem in america. If you will go into cells you've got to have a reason to sell it. You've got to create a market for just israel. Quenched things that create hydrate. We will mean drink ahead of you. I try and you've got to tolerate more fluid. Your brain doesn't a when you are thirsty. Doctor deb cohen went to medical school in the uk but instead of becoming clinician a doctor who sees patients she became a journalist back in two thousand twelve during the lead up to the london olympics. She was the investigative editor at the british medical journal. She wrote a report called the truth about sports drinks and it set off a bomb in the beverage industry. The report looked at the history of sports drinks like gatorade and how their advertising basically invented the modern fear of dehydration was reading connors. The boom is the meyerson air in the nineteen seventies. The sports drinks frady took off. It started life in in florida. The university of florida and kate was venus physician and he developed this. Drink for for the gators. Football team was effectively. Water suga society of lemon jas. Ah quite simple supposed to help. Alleviate cramps was both took by quite corrupt and they spotted a big market. And that's really where the science of of dehydration started okay so we're not talking about clinical dehydration. Which is a real condition for example. The time i had food poisoning. I was up all night vomiting so i had to go to the emergency department and get it in venus but but this is healthy people this is a whole different phenomenon and what they turned into an illness was exercising. Juice dehydration exercise induced dehydration. Now that sounds a lot more important than european. I e been running and sweating if you tell people that it's it's all about the science than than people more likely to believe it beverage. Companies especially gatorade commission studies looking for results. That would bolster their sales pitches by the time. Dr cohen started looking into these studies. Rollout of them glaxosmithkline. At the time the company behind a popular british sports drink called lucas aid claim. They had more than a hundred clinical trials. That's a lot of studies and the studies. Were a little bit off some of the studies. Who actually having a the las about so what you do is you would stall people overnight faster overnight and then you jackson to cycle to exhaustion one grape. He would give a sports drink containing sugar on the other. Great would give water little gas while the people have had sugar against while portfolio. The people that have starved in hot water locate science unsaid rule salts of these also these kinds of days that they do. And you look at gay. That just does not happen. And it doesn't matter that is not clinically relevant. Now you've got something that looks statistically different and you can peg a marketing campaign around that exactly and if you throw enough dots dog port. If you've got your eyes blindfolded than one of them's hit the voted some point. The studies were junk but the scientists conclusions they made began to spread. Especially this idea that we couldn't rely on our own bodies to tell us when we were thirsty. One of gatorade scientists even said in two thousand and eight and i quote the human thirst mechanism is an inaccurate short-term indicator of fluid needs unfortunately there is no clear physiological signal that dehydration is occurring. The thing keeping the mayo clinic had information that was based on science that have been oath Derived from the sports drinks industry about when you should hydrate and how he should hydride uneven filter down to influence school guidance in the uk where kids playing soccer. we'd have to go and stop every fifteen minutes. Twenty minutes to rehydrate and speak to. The team has kids like winning around. They just need paola. Time say kids running off constantly even the. Us military was in on the quasi science in the early eighties. The pentagon was citing gatorade. Sports science institute studies claiming that drinking sports drinks could prevent heatstroke a huge concern for soldiers fighting desert wars but those studies were bunk. There was no evidence that drinking fluids reduced the risk of heat stroke even today. The us military remains gatorade. 's biggest customer. You're a tax payer dollar's at work. I was wounded several times. As well story oh you show. You know what you're doing and i spoke to people in the us quite bit associates. Nate try to have studies published. That were the negative. I may just could not get them published and they been wound off doing that research while they were saying to me to realize how what you're doing here. I live today probably naively just so will sugary to guys. I mean how. How big a deal is this. But as dr collins started her investigation she began to see. There was a lot of money intertwined with the junk science sports drink. Companies spent huge sums sponsoring youth sports funding sports medicine doctors and putting their logos on the world's most beloved teams. It was like a holy grail. You go to go to sports conferences. Sports medicine science conferences is displayed everywhere. Sponsored and you done criticize the spoils drink so sports. Strengths have somewhat fallen out of favor since their heyday in the nineteen eighties and nineties but another product has taken its place and now it's the number one selling beverage in the world. Bottled water and big bottled. Water is very happy to have. You believe that you can't trust your thirst and that you need a minimum of eight glasses of water a day after the break. We're gonna talk about why this myth just won't die. We're back before the break. We learned the origin at the eight glasses of water a day mess. We believe myths like this for a lot of reasons but a big one is something psychologists call the illusory truth effect when a piece of information is widespread. And you hear it over and over again. You're more likely to believe that it's true. There are a lot of examples statements like we only use ten percent of our brains or eating carrots. While help you see in the dark. These things are true. But i bet you've heard them repeated over and over again politicians and marketers take advantage of this all the time and it works because when you're assessing whether something you've heard is true you typically rely on two things whether the information makes common sense and whether it feels familiar but research has shown that familiarity can even be more convincing than rationality rationality is hard. But remembering if you heard something before nazi. And here's the thing about the illusory truth effect. No one is immune not even doctors. There's a one day a year in march with a world kidney day dedicated to improving awareness of kidney disease and a few years ago the theme of world kidney today was a drink. A glass of water to help your kidneys which is just crazy right. It doesn't make any sense that grounded in science but it is grounded in funding for world. Kennedy which i believe comes from dan manufacturer of bottled water and say the the deep state of hydration. That's dr jolt off. He's the kidney doctor. Otherwise known as a frolic gist. I called up dr tough. Because what do we do in medicine. We don't know the answer. We look for an expert. We call a consult. And dr tough is just the chemistry wizard for the job. I'm a lifelong nerd has been fascinated. By the chemistry of body fluids. Going on three decades i love nerds are an infinite number of fascinating aspects of body physiology or disease states and one of the truth about medicine. Is that once you start learning about any one of these conditions. They become more interesting and back in nineteen ninety five. When i was a senior medical school. I became real interested in fluids and electrolytes so precious bodily fluids the precious bodily fluids. That's right that's my favorite movie. That's a dr strangelove. Dr tough knows that the most important thing about precious bodily fluids is that they stay in balance which brings us to the tragic case of jennifer strange. So i want you kinda rewind back to two thousand and seven and the hottest thing in two thousand seven was the nintendo. We and this radio station got their hands on one and they were running a radio contest. The contest was don't we for a we. The radio station invited eighteen contestants down to their studio to see who could drink the most water without having to p and there was one person who entered was strange twenty eight year old mother of three and she ended up drinking two gallons of water in an hour. That's a lot of water so much water that a nurse actually called into the station to warn them. This was dangerous you can overload your system with too much water. It can be really unsafe as jennifer left the radio station. She was already complaining of a headache. And what she actually had was a condition. Cerebral dima which happens when you wash your body out from all the critical salts and and when you do this water will shift from your bloodstream. Into your brain caused increases swelling of your brain that caused headaches nausea seizures. Coma and death. She ended up dying on our own bathroom floor. A couple of hours later jennifer died from a condition called hypo nutri mia meaning a dangerously low level of sodium. In her blood. She threw off her body's delicate balance. Something we've evolved to rely on it's called homeo- stacy's the body maintains stable internal environment to provide optimal health with ati for these cells to grow and to be healthy. They need regulated mounts of sodium potassium. Even things like body temperature needs to be regulated. All these things need to be in an optimal range for growth and health and that process of maintaining everything that tight band. it's called home you'll stays. We've evolved to maintain homeostasis through finely tuned mechanisms. The sense when things are awry when we've gone a little bit too far in one direction or a little bit too far in the other and makes adjustments to return us to our state of balance. Think about the mechanisms. That maintain us in homeo- stasis like autopilots. I think that's perfect right. So you can think of bud body temperatures a classic one right so if we get too hot we start to. Sweat evaporates from our skin that lowers by temperature. Back down. We get too cold. We shiver now that generates brings us back to a normal body temperature so we have processes they control us from getting too hot and cold body. Temperature is just one example of the autopilots. That our body has to maintain homeo- stasis and our kidneys. Well they're the quarterback of homies stasis. They help to maintain the balance of almost every electrolyte in our body. They help with blood pressure their crucial for maintaining h and they maintain our level of hydration. One of these autopilots is called ause. Malady and us me is just a measure of the total amount of compounds in solution. And so it's analogous just how salted the soup is as asthma. Lalji goes up to gets more salty as quality goes down. Suit gets more in this case. The soup is our blood to be a little bit more precise the fluid part of our blood plasma and the kidney regulates her oz morality so it stays and a healthy range. Jennifer strange died because she drank so much water that she pushed her ause morality far below the healthy range. And her kidneys. Just couldn't keep up today. Hyphen is often seen athletes. Who are over hydrating while exercising doctors. I started seeing it in ultra marathon runners and ironman triathletes in the one thousand nine hundred s a period of time. That nicely coincides with the messaging. Coming out of the gatorade sports science institute. And it's not just extreme athletes. Doctors have seen hyper nutri mia in high school football players students in yoga classes and more thankfully hyphen a tree. Mea is relatively rare because if our bodies amazing ability to defend homeo- stasis. I just went for run this morning. I went for three mile run. An thirsty innovate hungary. So has my one kidney. 'cause i only have one i'm keeping me Working right so you came back from your run and presumably during that. Run you sweat. You lost a little bit of fluid that way and that loss of fluid is gonna make your body salt here. It's gonna make the soup saltaire. your is morality. Goes up this. You're pushing your body out of that home static range and it needs to return that as morality back down and the way that does that is two factors. One increased thirst and to increase. Thursday is a sensation that your body gets. It'll change you hair will make you go to the sink poorest of glass of water and drink it so in addition to thirst. Your kidney is going to respond to the increase in us malady and the way that does that is going to change the type of urine that you make. You're always making urine. You're always getting rid of your constantly getting rid of waste products but one of the variables. His how much water is excreted along with those waste products in other words. If you're drinking a lot of water you're gonna pay more but that doesn't mean you're getting rid of more waste. You're getting rid of the same amount of waste. It's just deluded in more water. Yes my tagline. On twitter says a thinking the kidneys product is urine is like thinking. Factories product is pollution. Urine is the byproduct what the you produces is homies soon. So how much water should we drink. We should drink enough water. So the thirsty i tell my patients you know anytime that you're thirsty go hadn't drink a glass of water and maybe have one glass of water on top of that. It's not going to harm you. But i don't advise my patients to counter glasses water. Unless unless they have kidney stones nouri past or if they have autosomal dominant polycystic. Getting if you have an intact thirst mechanism and you have access to water. Are you going to get dehydrated now. Let's put it this way. People with increase odium will drink from a toilet. The derived drinking is so strong. You will not get dehydrated. If there's a glass within a mile of you you'll get that water and you'll be fine see now. You can be liberated from any anxieties you've ever had about whether you're drinking enough water. You're welcome then. Dr talk told me something really cool about how bodies know. When we've drank enough water get so there are osmo receptors. They're located in the centre part of the branka liable thelma's and they're gonna costly measure the odds morality in the body. And they're they're actually very sophisticated. It knows when you're drinking. It'll start to suppress the hormone that drives thirst soon as you start to drink. It doesn't even wait for that fluid to lower the allowing the body. It's absolutely aware what happens when you drink and it says. Hey we're gonna we're gonna slow the cycle down. We know that you're already compensated for what we're seeing so little suppress those hormones that are driving that thirst once you start to drink. Yeah i thought that was fascinating. You know that it takes about ten minutes for the water that you drink to get into your bloodstream. And that your brain knows within a minute or so that you've consumed enough and is already like making the calculations based on what it sensing in your mouth and you're a sophomore. I mean it's such a fascinating autopilot. More advanced than we thought The body is amazing. isn't it okay either. Few more little things. I want to clear up now. That i have my own kidney consultant. So let's play a little game. Kidney fact or fiction staying hydrated makes your skin glow factor fiction the no evidence that it improves the glowing skin. That said if you really get dehydrated skins not good shape. Drinking eight glasses of water makes your brain work better. Yes or now. So there is some data that This was done in school children that increasing hydration right before some tests improved some aspects of cognition. There were two studies that i could find on this. Neither of them were very large. Neither of them are very convincing. I also find the big test that said this is absolutely fiction. I would guess fiction. But i would leave a possibility that there's some truth to that. Caffeine as a diuretic factor fiction fiction. This has been studied pretty rigorously. There is no evidence at all. That caffeine dehydrates you. You can include that cup of water when you count your cups of water if this is something that you'd like to do can coffee is no different so there you go friends if you'd rather have a cup of coffee then a glass of water you do you before you let dr tawfik go. I had just one more question. So i gotta ask to check the color of your urine absolutely like every other know. I'm always interested in. I'm always interested in it because he gives me a. It's a window into what's happening in my kidney in an naturally intrigued by that. I don't think it changes from thirsty. You let your body. Run the autopilot. Here's one of the big secrets of madison. It's not as hard as you might think. And it certainly doesn't all belong in ivory towers or dressed up in lab coats. I had an aha moment want. I was twenty or twenty one years old sitting in medical school and the professors started talking about hydro frozenness exact same diagnosis that i had when i was a kid and he explained it using the same language pediatric urologist. I sat there thinking. Wow that knowledge is held up what i heard. What i was is not any different than what. I'm hearing now. Ten years later in medical school. My knowledge is held up over all this time. And how empowering was it for me to actually understand how my body worked. When i was going through scary things. A lot of medicine is very complex. And if you're gonna be a doctor you need to know all the background the nitty gritty details matter a lot. But if you're just worried about taking care of your own house or your families there's a lot in your power to understand. One of my favorite things about being a doctor is when i explain something to a patient about how their body works and they have that moment of realization all the puzzle pieces fall into place. And they say wow. I didn't know how that worked. And now i do. I hope you'll stick around for the rest of the season of body stuff. We'll be breaking down how your body works. Well busting one medical method time next week diving rate in with your digestive system. Why just poop smell bad me close. All of the things and saw not many of us are comfortable talking about our food. But i'm not many of us. We're going to talk about why today. Seek out by feces. And we're gonna find out what are who could tell us about. Our healthy bodies is a member of the ted audio collective. It's hosted by me dr jen gunter and brought to you. By ted and transmitter media this episode was produced by lacy roberts and edited by sarah knicks. The rest of the team includes camille. Peterson alice wilder gretta cohn michelle quint ban benching and roxanne lash. Alex overton is our sound designer and mix engineer. Paul durbin and near zsa. Arriving don fact check this episode special. Thanks to my one kidney for keeping me going. We're back next week with more body stuff makes you follow body stuff in your favorite podcast app. So you get every episode delivered straight to your device and leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners. cnx week.

dr jen dr jen gunter dr john gunter Dr jen deb cohen frady suga society of lemon jas twitter gatorade commission Dr cohen Sports science institute dr collins Infosys Instagram headache america jennifer jill Mica
Guest Episode: How Much Water Do You Actually Need a Day?

Gastropod

34:24 min | 2 weeks ago

Guest Episode: How Much Water Do You Actually Need a Day?

"You might have noticed. We've been introducing you to some new podcasts in your feed this season. And here's one more for you to try which we think you'll really enjoy. It's called body stuff with dr jen gunter from the ted audio. Collective became fans of john. We both have her first book and in her new podcast she busts myths were told and sold about our personal health episode. We chose for you. Today is all about how much water you actually need to drink every day. We've all heard if we just drink enough water. The full eight glasses a day. We'll have glowing skin. Increased energy will feel and look one hundred percent better. But can motor actually. Do all that listening now. This episode will take you behind the scandalous history of hydration pseudoscience and introduce you to a nephrologist who reveals. What's fact and what's fiction about our kidneys bind body style with dr jen gunter and subscribe. But i enjoy. I'm dr jen gutter. I love science and he people twist it. Your system needs of the lemons milk water seven days a week and there's a lot of twisted medical misinformation out there toxins three one hundred. That's that's ridiculous. Gallon water means. you'll eat fewer calories. Oh so painful. We're exposed to commence whether we're looking for them or not. There are news stories. Instagram and facebook post fine pass. Twenty four seven tiktok twitter who has valid information. And who's just trying to sell you something. How do you sort the medicine from the may. I'm dr jen gunslinger. And i'm here to help from the ted audio collective. This is body stuff. I'm a doctor practicing columnist. And i've made it my mission to give women the facts that they need to understand their bodies in my twenty five years of talking with patients. I've learned that medical misinformation is a problem for everyone and every single one of us is susceptible so this show is about debunking. Some of the stickiest smith's their while helping you understand how your body really works today. Why you don't need eight glasses of water every day. You need glasses of water. We're going back in time to find the origins of that myth and then we're going to meet a kidney expert who's going to eliminate just how hard our bodies work for us to maintain our hydration. It works like an exquisitely designed tomek balance machine right. You need to keep everything in balance. But i i wanna tell you about something that happened to me. When i was ten years old. It was a time in my life. When i got asked a lot about my urine and at ended up setting me on a path to become a doctor. It was the first good weekend of spring. Nineteen seventy seven in winnipeg manitoba. The kind where the sun feels hot. And you're just rare and to get outside. I was messing around with my brother. Skateboard going down the street. And then all of a sudden i was flat on my back on the concrete. And i was in a terrible amount of pain at felt like my insides. Were on fire the next day. I'm sure i didn't look well so we went to the pediatrician. Who took one look at me and call the general surgeon who took one look at me and sent to the emergency department. They gave me something called angiogram. And i remember the doctor pointing to the x ray screen explaining what he was seeing and of course just like a snowstorm to me. But that's when. I learned that when i felt my skateboard i'd ruptured spleen. The good news was. I wasn't gonna need surgery but there was something else. It looked like i held hydrogen fro sits meaning. My kidney was full of and i needed to see a pediatric urologists. He sat us down in his consultation room and started to explain to my mom. What needed to happen. I could tell she was very confused. I think the doctor could tell us well and so he gestured to me and said hey you come over here. This is your body. You should know how it works. So i came over and i sat down. I traded places with my mom and he drew a little diagram mini explained. How the kidney works. And what he thought was wrong and the tests that i was going to have to have and surgery of i was probably going to have to have is well when that doctor took the time to explain my body to me. It really helped me not feel scared or overwhelmed and that experience made me decide. I wanted to be a doctor. I love the science. And i wanted to be able to give to my patients what that doctor gave me that day. That empowerment of knowing how your body works and how to use that knowledge to help improve your health. Eventually i did have surgery to remove my left kidney. I've lived most of my life with just one kidney. The oregon that's largely responsible for regulating our bodies hydration. But you wanna know something. None of my doctors ever told me to worry about how much water i was drinking. I graduated from medical school when i was twenty three. So i've been a doctor more than half my life. And i've seen first hand the problems that happen. When people get misconceptions about their health and a lot of these misconceptions they start with the internet. I'm not one of those doctors who rolls her eyes. When our patient comes in with reams of advice from dr google. That tells me that my patient is engaged. She wants to learn but there are a lot of bogus recommendations out there and often they're being pushed by brands and influencers allotted them sound like they're making sense in a sort of science ish way like the eight glasses of water a day thing. Hey were made of water. So why wouldn't we need lots of water but that's not science. So what's behind this. Myth how did we get eight glasses of water a day anyway. There are a couple of potential origin stories. One is the paper from nineteen forty-five that suggests the body uses about eighty four ounces of water a day and there's another paper from nineteen seventy four from a pair of nutritionists who recommended an equivalent of six to eight glasses of water a day for the body to function appropriately. But these papers became distorted over time. Mica bad game telephone these experts were recommending that we drink six to eight glasses of water a day on top of everything else they were saying. This is the amount of water the body needs to function. But that water doesn't have to be water. You drink from a glass out of your tap. Water is in everything. Think about a breastfed baby. All their drinking is milk. The body is able to remove the water from the milk. So the baby never gets dehydrated in the same way once. We start eating solid food. Our bodies continue to extract water from everything we consume everything we eat or drink counts so the water in your apple counts the water. That's in the bread that you eat counts. Even coffee counts. Any fluid counts. Look i get. This is a real record. Scratch freeze frame moment for a lot of people but we don't just get the water we need from plain water and if you have one of those days where you just drink coffee all morning and you don't feel great. Maybe you're a little headache key or a little jittery. It's not because you're dehydrated. Maybe you had a little too much coffee or you had it on an empty stike if you like drinking six classes a glasses of water day and your doctor hasn't advised against it. That's probably fine. What i'm saying is that there's nothing medical about this number. We get to make choices about what we put into our body and this is one of those choices if you think about it just using common sense and putting the medicine aside does it seem realistic that we evolve needing to consume that much clean water every day in the span of human history access to clean plentiful. Drinking water is a relatively recent phenomenon and even today in many parts of the world access in clean drinking water. Sadly isn't as easy as walking into your kitchen and filling up glass. It seems unlikely that our ancestors carried giant water bottles around with them at all times and yet the myths spread and spread and spread. But why is this smith so sticky it turns out there's a mix of factors including a little bit of intrigue and one particular culprit. The deserves a lot of the blame. The beverage industry. Sometimes warner just isn't draw out tied to review unquenched. Thirst has become a chronic problem in america. If you will go to sell something you've got to have a reason to sell it. You've got to create a market for just easily quenched. Things that create hydrate we. What's that mean. drink ahead of you. I trained you got tolerate more fluid. Your brain doesn't when you are thirsty. Doctor deb cohen went to medical school in the uk but instead of becoming clinician a doctor who sees patients she became a journalist back in two thousand twelve during the lead up to the london olympics. She was the investigative editor at the british medical journal. She wrote a report called the truth about sports drinks and it set off a bomb in the beverage industry. The report looked at the history of sports drinks like gatorade and how their advertising basically invented the modern fear of dehydration. It was really the the boom of the myerson air in the nineteen seventies. The sports drinks ready to off. It started life in in florida. Invested florida and robert cade was the opposition and he developed this drink for there to the gators football team. It was effectively water. suga Of lemon jas. Ah quite simple in supposed to help. Alleviate cramps enigmas both took by quite corrupt and they spotted a big market. And that's really where the science of of dehydration started okay so we're not talking about clinical dehydration. Which is a real condition for example. The time i had food poisoning. I was up all night vomiting so i had to go to the emergency department and get it in venus but this is healthy people. This is a whole different phenomenon and what they turned into an illness was exercising. Juice dehydration exercise induced dehydration. Now that sounds a lot more report the near a bit. I if been running and sweating if you tell people that it's it's all about the science than than people are more likely to believe it beverage. Companies especially gatorade commission studies looking for results. That would bolster their sales pitches by the time. Dr cohen started looking into these studies. They were a lot of them. Glaxosmithkline at the time the company behind a popular british sports drink called luke made claim. They had more than a hundred clinical trials. That's a lot of studies and the studies. Were a little bit off some of the studies who actually having a loss about so what you do. Is you would stall people overnight fast night and then you ask them to cycle to exhaustion. One would give a sports drink containing sugar on the other. Great people gave water will gas while the people have had sugar against while portfolio the people that have been solved in hot water as not locate science inside the rule salts of these also these kinds of days that they did when you look at gay go back just does not happen. And it doesn't matter that is not clinically relevant. Now you've got something. That looks statistically different and you can peg a marketing campaign around that exactly and if you throw dots adult polls if you've got your eyes blindfolded than one of them's a hit. The voted some point. The studies were junk but the scientists conclusions they made began to spread. Especially this idea that we couldn't rely on our own bodies to tell us when we were thirsty. One of gatorade scientists even said in two thousand and eight and i quote the human. Thirst mechanism is an inaccurate term indicator of fluid needs. Unfortunately there is no clear physiological signal that dehydration is occurring. The think he's in. The mayo clinic had information that was based on science that have been open Derived from the sports drinks industry about when you should hydrate and how he should hydrate uneven filter down to influence school guidance in the uk where kids playing soccer. We'd have to go in every fifteen minutes. Twenty minutes to rehydrate and speak to the team has kids like winning around. They just need to pay the time. Say kids running off constantly. Even the us military was in on the quasi science in the early eighties. The pentagon was citing gatorade. Sports science institute studies claiming that drinking sports drinks could prevent heatstroke a huge concern for soldiers fighting desert wars but those studies were bunk. There was no evidence that drinking fluids reduced the risk of heat stroke even today. The us military remains gatorade. 's biggest customer. You're a tax payer dollar's at work. I was wounded several times. As well story oh you show you know what you're doing and and i spoke to people in the us quite bit associates. Nate tried to have studies published. Were the were negative and they just could not get them published and they been wound off doing that research while and they were saying to me realize how what you're doing here and i live today probably naively just so will sugary guys. I mean how. How big a deal is this. But as dr collins started her investigation she began to see. There was a lot of money intertwined with the junk science sports drink. Companies spent huge sums sponsoring youth sports funding sports medicine doctors and putting their logos on the world's most beloved teams. It was like a holy grail. You go to go to sports conferences with sports. Medicine or science conferences is displayed everywhere sponsored. And you've done. Criticize the spoils drink so sports. Strengths have somewhat fallen out of favor since their heyday in the nineteen eighties and nineties but another product has taken its place and now it's the number one selling beverage in the world. Bottled water and big. Bottled water is very happy to have you believe that. You can't trust your thirst and that you need a minimum of eight glasses of water a day after the break. We're gonna talk about why this myth just won't die. We're back before the break. We learned the origin of the eight glasses of water a day mess. We believe myths like this for a lot of reasons but a big one is something psychologists call the illusory truth effect when a piece of information is widespread. And you hear it over and over again. You're more likely to believe that it's true. There are a lot of examples statements like we only use ten percent of our brains or eating carrots while hope you see in the dark. None of these things are true. But i bet you've heard them repeated over and over again politicians and marketers take advantage of this all the time and it works because when you're assessing whether something you've heard is true you typically rely on two things whether the information makes common sense and whether it feels familiar the research has shown that familiarity can even be more convincing than rationality rationality is hard. But remembering if you heard something before that's easy. And here's the thing about the illusory truth effect. No one is immune not even doctors. There's a one day a year in march with a world kidney day dedicated to improving of kidney disease and a few years ago. The theme of world kidney day was a drink. A glass of water to help your kidneys which is just crazy right. It doesn't make any sense not grounded in science but it is grounded in funding for world. Kennedy which i believe comes from dan manufacturer of bottled water the the deep state of hydration. That's dr jolt off. He's the kidney doctor. Otherwise known as a frolic gist. I called up dr tough. Because what do we do in medicine. We don't know the answer. We look for an expert. We call a consult. And dr tough is just the chemistry wizard for the job. I'm a lifelong nerd. He's been fascinated by the chemistry of body fluids. Going on three decades. I love nerds. There are an infinite number of fascinating aspects of body physiology or disease states and one of the truths about medicine. Is that once you start learning about any one of these conditions. They become more interesting and back in nineteen ninety five. When i was a senior medical school. I became real interested in fluids and electrolytes so precious bodily fluids the precious bodily fluids. That's right. that's my favorite movie. Dr strangelove dr tough knows that the most important thing about precious bodily fluids is that they stay in balance which brings us to the tragic case of jennifer strange. So i want to rewind back to two thousand and seven and the hottest thing in two thousand seven was the nintendo. We and this radio station got their hands on one and they were running a radio contest contest was don't we for a we. The radio station invited eighteen contestants down to their studio to see who could drink the most water without having to pay and there was one person who entered was jennifer strange twenty eight year old mother of three and she ended up drinking two gallons of water in an hour. That's a lot of water so much water that a nurse actually called into the station to warn them. This was dangerous you can overload your system with too much water. It can be really unsafe as jennifer left the radio station. She was already complaining of a headache. And what she actually had was a conditioning. Cerebral dima which happens when you wash your body out from all the critical salts and and when you do this water will shift from your bloodstream. Into your brain caused increases swelling of your brain that caused headaches nausea seizures. Coma and death. She ended up dying on our own bathroom floor. A couple of hours later jennifer died from a condition called hypo nutri mia meaning a dangerously low level of sodium in her blood. She threw off her body's delicate balance. Something we've evolved to rely on it's called homeo-. The body maintains stable internal environment to provide optimal health foot cells potty for these cells to grow to be healthy. They need regulated mounts of sodium potassium. Even things like body temperature needs to be regulated. All these things need to be in an optimal range for growth and health and that process of maintaining everything that tight band. it's called home stays. We've evolved to maintain homeostasis through finely tuned mechanisms. The sense when things are awry when we've gone a little bit too far in one direction or a little bit too far in the other and makes adjustments to return us to our state of balance. Think about the mechanisms. That maintain us in homeo- stasis mike autopilots. I think that's perfect right. So you can think bud body temperatures a classic one right so if we get too hot we start to sweat. Water evaporates from our skin that lowers by temperature. Back down we get to cold. We shiver now that generates brings back to a normal body temperature so we have processes the controllers. Were getting too hot and cold. Body temperature is just one example of the autopilots. Our body has to maintain homeo- stasis and our kidneys their quarterback of homies stasis. They help to maintain the balance of almost every electrolyte in our body. They help with blood pressure their crucial for maintaining ph and they maintain our level of hydration. One of these autopilots is called ause malady. And ask me is just a measure of the total amount of compounds in solution. And so it's analogous just how salted the soup is as asthma. Elodie goes up. Soup gets more salty as quality goes down suit gets more dilute in this case. The soup is our blood to be a little bit more precise. The fluid part of our blood or plasma and the kidney regulates our odds morality so it stays in a healthy range. Jennifer strange died because she drank so much water that she pushed her ause morality far below the healthy range. And her kidneys. Just couldn't keep up today. Hyphen is most often seen athletes. Who are over hydrating while exercising doctors. I started seeing it in ultra marathon runners and ironman triathletes in the one thousand nine hundred eighty s a period of time. that nicely coincides with the messaging. Coming out of the gatorade sports science institute. And it's not just extreme athletes. Doctors have seen hyper mia in high school. Football players students in yoga classes and more thankfully hyphen a tree. Mea is relatively rare because of our bodies. Amazing ability to defend homeo- stasis. I just want for run this morning. I went for three mile. Run and thirsty. Innovate hungary so has my one kidney. 'cause i only have one i'm keeping me Working right so you came back from your run and presumably during that. Run you sweat. You lost a little bit of fluid that way and that loss of fluid is gonna make your body salt here. It's can make the soup saltaire. your is morality. Goes up this is. You're pushing your body out of that home static range and it needs to return. That is morality back down and the way that does that is two factors. One increased thirst and to increase. Thursday is a sensation that your body gets. It'll change you. Hair will make you go to the cinque ports of glass of water and drink it so in addition to thirst. Your kidney is going to respond to that increase in osceola and the way that does that is going to change the type of urine that you make. You're always making urine. You're always getting rid of your constantly getting rid of waste products but one of the variables. His how much water is excreted along with those waste products in other words. If you're drinking a lot of water you're gonna pay more but that doesn't mean you're getting rid of more waste. You're getting rid of the same amount of waste. It's just diluted in more water. yes my tagline. On twitter says a thinking the kidneys product is urine is like thinking. Factories product is pollution. Urine is the byproduct. What can you produces is homies sim. So how much water should we drink. We should drink enough water. So the university i tell my patients you know anytime that you're thirsty go hadn't drink a glass of water and maybe have one glass of water on top of that. It's not going to harm you. But i don't advise my patients to counter glasses of water unless unless they have kidney stones and their past or if have autosomal dominant polycystic getting if you have an intact thirst mechanism and you have access to water. Are you gonna get dehydrated now. Let's put it this way. People with increase odium will drink from a toilet. The derived drinking is so strong. You will not get dehydrated. If there's a glass within a mile of you you'll get that water and you'll be fine see now. You can be liberated from any anxieties you've ever had about whether you're drinking enough water. You're welcome then. Dr tough told me something really cool about how our bodies no when we've drank enough water. Get so there are osmo receptors. They're located in the centre part of the brain kabul thelma's and they're gonna constantly measure the odds morality in the body and they're actually a very sophisticated. It knows when you're drinking. It'll start to suppress the hormone that drives thirst soon as you start to drink. It doesn't even wait for that fluid to lower the loud in the body. It's absolutely aware what happens when you drink and says hey we're gonna we're gonna slow the cycle down. We know you're already compensated for what we're seeing so will suppress those hormones. That are driving that thirst once you start to drink. Yeah i thought that was fascinating. You know that it takes about ten minutes for the water that you drink to get into your bloodstream. And that your brain knows within a minute or so that you've consumed enough and is already making the calculations based on what it sensing in your mouth and you're a sophomore. I mean it's such a fascinating autopilot way more advanced than we thought The body is amazing. isn't it okay either. A few more little things. I want to clear up now. That i have my own kidney consultant. So let's play a little game. Kidney fact or fiction staying hydrated makes your skin glow factor fiction fiction. No evidence that it improves the glowing skin. That said if you really get dehydrated skins not good shape. Drinking eight glasses of water makes your brain work better. Yes sir now. So there is some data that This was done in school children that increasing hydration right before some tests improved some aspects of cognition. There were two studies that i could find on this. Neither of them were very large. Neither of them are very convincing. I also didn't find the big tested. Said this is absolutely fiction. I would guess fiction. But i would leave a possibility that there's some truth to that. Caffeine is a diuretic factor fiction fiction. This has been studied pretty rigorously. There is no evidence at all. That caffeine dehydrates. You can include that cup of water when you count your cups of water if the something that you'd like to do can coffee is no different so there you go friends if you'd rather have a cup of coffee then glass of water. You do you before you let dr tov go. I had just one more question. So i gotta ask to check the color of your urine absolutely like every other know. I'm always interested in. I'm always interested in it because it gives me a window into what's happening in my kidney. Am all naturally intrigued by that. I don't think it changes my from thirsty. You let your body. Run the autopilot. Here's one of the big secrets of medicine. It's not as hard as you might think. And it certainly doesn't all belong in ivory towers or dressed up in lab coats. Want i was twenty or twenty one years old sitting in medical school and the professors started talking about. Hydro says the exact same diagnosis that i had when i was a kid and he explained it using the same language as my pediatric urologist. I sat there thinking. Wow that knowledge is held up what i heard. What i was done is not any different than what i'm hearing now. Ten years later in medical school. My knowledge is held up over all this time. And how empowering was it for me to actually understand how my body worked when i was going through all the scary things. A lot of medicine is very complex. And if you're gonna be a doctor you need to know all the background the nitty gritty details matter a lot. But if you're just worried about taking care of your own house or your families there's a lot in your power to understand. One of my favorite things about being a doctor is when i explain something to a patient about how their body works and they have that moment of realization all the puzzle pieces fall into place. And they say wow. I didn't know how that worked. And now i do. I hope you'll stick around for the rest of the season of body stuff. We'll be breaking down how your body works. Well busting one medical method time next week diving in with justice system. Why just poop smell bad me close. All of the things and not many of us are comfortable talking about our food. But i'm not many of us. We're going to talk about why today. We're so freaked out by feces. And we're gonna find out what are who could tell us about. Our healthy body is a member of the ten collective. It's hosted by me dr jen gunter and brought to you. By ted and transmitter media this episode was produced by lacy roberts and edited by sarah knicks. The rest of the team include camille peterson. Alice wilder gretta cohn michelle quint band. Benching and roxanne high lash. Alex overton is our sound designer and mix engineer paul durbin and near nesia arriving don fact check this episode special. Thanks to my one kidney for keeping me going. We're back next week with more body stuff. Make sure you follow body staff in your favorite podcast app. So you get every episode delivered straight to your device and leave us a review. We love hearing from our listeners. cnx week.

dr jen gunter dr jen dr jen gunslinger deb cohen robert cade gatorade commission Dr cohen jennifer Sports science institute smith dr collins Instagram us Dr strangelove dr Mica manitoba florida winnipeg
Three Stops in Kentucky

Over the Road

48:08 min | 1 year ago

Three Stops in Kentucky

"Back probably ten or eleven years ago we did a survey on the trucks that go up and down this road so we know now that we're doing at least in the twelve thousand trucks a day so we ever tiles delayed all the new people out here. Now we're here. We're with the interstate Nelson about your truck. There we advertise. Our Fuel. Products are votes faces. Everything's good here. You just want to take a break you know stopping and I was one of those new people once hauling down. I Seventy Five Kentucky. For the first time this was the late eighty s and difficult to understate the hunger for the human voice among your average truckdriver back. Then I mean you had your. Cb RADIO WHATEVER AM FM stations. You could pick up. Maybe a few verbal jabs from the forklift driver three hundred miles back and that was about it. Waitstaff Petite Kentucky truck stops understood that Unger all too well twenty below the sirens of the sea. Change that Drellich one dollar something about the way they called you honey. Just through the Yankee boys and like flies. Promise not to mention that one special. That's always on the menu and drivers. Don't forget homemade name. Manner Pudding can get you dislike of we free at these places all along. This stretch is seventy five over today on the show. We're going to settle once and for all the question of who started this. Whole manner pudding thing big. I'm taking you on a tour of my favorite Kentucky truck stops in here to exit talking about those little mom and pop operations that are still holding out against the big chains. The kind of places that used to have phones at each table and might not even have gas pumps just diesel. We're going to hit up. Three of these stops working our way south from exit seventy six to exit. Sixty two and finely exit forty nine. So sit tight. I'm long-haul Paul appearances. Radio Topiary and overdrive magazine. This is over the row. Hey listeners if you're a fan of over the road you may also enjoy carrier in immersive audio thriller from Q Code Media. The fictional series stars. Emmy Tony and Grammy Award winner. Cynthia a revolt as raylene watts. A long haul truck driver who somewhere along the lonely highway discover. She's carrying more than just produce. A rival leads in mazing cast. That includes Martin Star l'amour and Morris Dale dickey Lance rettig and Elliott Gould. Binge. All of carrier. Now subscribe wherever you get your favorite podcasts. These days a mom and pop truckstop as a dying breed. Part of the problem is that company drivers like me are actually instructed to fuel up. Only at one of the big changed ops like pilot and loves us because the more fuel our company is the more of Tiscali we get that puts these independent establishments at a real disadvantage. But even if I can't fuel here anymore I still like to wheel in when I can. Our these truck stops. Remind me of my better days as a trucker back when I was still sporting that mullet and a Tan back to not that reminded me of when I own that. Canary Yellow Western star. And tesol a seventy nine cents a gallon. Maybe it's like seeing an old relative who can bear witness to what you once were before life at. Its Way with you see an after I saw I was like Oh what him until it is carrying braves manager of the seventy six fuel center. I might forget your name but probably not your face. Once I say is one of those little accidents of history. The truckstop was originally built in nineteen. Seventy six right here at exit seventy six. That was just the name got because of the exit here but it's changed a lot since then the kind of place it just keeps growing under the pressure of pure necessity with no central planning whatsoever back many years ago. This little area that we're sitting here in was a truck warsh and then part of it was the garage when the owners decided to add on a restaurant they use what materials they have. This dining room here is actually a traitor from a truck namely the wooden floor and fiberglass sides of an old semi trailer and it was just cut out and pulled in and attached to the truck. Stop there part there. The restaurant was made onto that. And that's what you see in there now. My old friend big. Jim Calls at the dry box cafe. The walls are still lined with e tracks those metal strips that we use to secure cargo inside of a trailer. The floors are a hodgepodge of hardwood plan. Nolan painted plywood. Certain bombed-out beauty to it all repurpose long before repurposing. What's cool? You know we've been talking about the whole manor putting thing and the whole you know you know the arguments who had the first manner pudding can you? Do you want to weigh in on that Karen? Well I'M GONNA be honest with you. I actually think we did and here. It is the opening salvo miss. Jane built this truck stop in nineteen seventy six and that was won. Miss Janes famous things is the the NANDOR pudding. And that's all I've known I've been doing this thirty years and as long as I ever knew. Miss Jane Gunman's was the original lady. That started that right here. This little truck. Stop well there. You have it. The manner pudding you know. And and I'm honestly I do believe that we were the first so with our first testimonial in hand my wife Denise and I decided to sit down for breakfast. I just can't resist that pan-fried Kentucky. Cornbread it's a special treat to eat like this out on the road. That's because there's a lot of the big truck stops. There's nothing but fast food chains really and as often happens at a mom and pop like this. Find ourselves talking with the driver at the next table. I am Kathy. Simmons and I have been trucking for thirty four years and the MOM and POPs as we call them. No brand names no chains. No nothing and everything are falling by the wayside and I would rather sit down. Be Able to take my time to go ahead and have fast food. Which is what is pushed down my throat all the time. Cathy actually sees a connection here with the issue of electronic logging. Hours of service. Which we've been talking about since the start of the series. You're screwed. Pardon my French. The constant ticking of the fourteen hour clock and make it feel like a waste of time to stop for a meal. You know we have obesity truck and we've always had obesity but not like what we do now and part of that is because we're not able to stop we're not able to go ahead and actually. Kinda get out and just take our time because fourteen hour clock wants that sucker starts. There's no stopping. Kathy has an interesting perspective on all of this because he's actually been around truckstop since she was a kid. I can remember my mom. She used to work at a truck stop as a waitress. And she had her regulars that came in all the time all the time and eventually she became. One of those regulars like any longtime trucker. She's got her favorite stops Marlin truckstop. Casey Jones village the Ranch House truckstop boise stage. Stop in every corner of the country. Markle Texas Tone Apollo Arizona Ontario organs and Claire Wyoming going across die eighty in Nebraska rapid city South Dakota. She knows where the food is. Best Task Country Fried Steak. Best Mexican burritos are GonNa new portions. Our biggest state was good six to eight inches on the plane cakes or the size of a twelve inch plate half inch an inch and a half bit pork chop she also knows that these places are about more than just food and diesel. Go ahead and get the corner booth or go and push a couple of tables together. Ten twelve of at a time bullshit and pardon the French again. But that's basically what it is and that's what was the best about the mom and pops and everything is because you could do that and they didn't care. I wonder if that's why Kathy keeps coming back to these places because like me remind her of better days do we have the camaraderie that we used to have. No as she tells me the story we were on second husband coming back across fifty four one nine almost into Clovis New Mexico. She and her husband. Jerry were holding in convoy with reverse on the lead truck hit a cow and went off the road. He had to go to the hospital. His truck was still driveable. I drove a truck. Jerry drove his truck to the chokes up there in Clovis which took his keys into the truck stop told them where he was at and they ask is it reefer. Dry reefer is is the tankful yes it is will keep an eye out on it. We'll check on it. That's what we did. That's what you do. It's alone job in a way but also to you can meet people out here on the row. You can talk to him. You may never see him again and then again five ten years down the road you may run into him again at a truck stop. You may not remember the name but you'll remember the face and you'll go. Hey how you doing you know you know. We're a family usually happen at a subway. No it does not so. Yeah but where? I'm at today when I'm over here on seventy five. This is where I usually go ahead and stop. But if you know if they're still hearing another ten fifteen years will be blessed. If not the only way anybody remember is the stories that are told. Oh well we could easily sit and talk all day but it's time to move along to exit sixty to the Derby City South Truck Plaza. I usually stop at Derby City when I'm headed south. That's because there's a hard uphill poll when you get back on the interstate going northbound but there's a nice downhill slope going south. That's the way Venetian I are headed. So I fire up the the see what they're serving nervous. Copy only down there little Mama. I should really explain here that when one talks on the CB radio it's important speak like you're from two states south where you're actually from isis hair. I once carried on with a cowboy trucker like this for good three or four hundred miles through Pennsylvania New Jersey and onto the island's only to learn that old tax was actually a long island Jew. Me I was just a papis boy whose folks hailed from Chicago. Here's the thing though. Say you go down to Kentucky and talk on the she be like some toll that Westerner nobody will ever answer you but shallow bit like old. Carl just got released from the nervous hospital and well you can make friends pretty quick. I watch y'alls daily special. Listen Derbyshire there Bryan tanker trip. I got them out. Oh you got dad hazardous waste dirty. Laya bill water. Well now. That won't do now trying to get a hold a little mom over there saying. Hey Radio Ain't get now. I know the basic then. Through the static comes another voice. She Promises Fried Catfish free. Coffee and of course manner pudding so I will in to investigate the Derby City South Truck. Plaza is a different kind of place. It wasn't a truck. Wash the decided to serve food. It looks like an actual restaurant nicely appointed with booths and tables sure. It doesn't have the makeshift charm of the seventy sixer. But I have a special fondness for this place. Is She back in the great recession around? Oh eight when you might wait a week to get a load out of Indiana and money was really tight. I came up with a side. Gig What I do is I buy twenty or thirty watermelons down in Florida for dollar a piece by all them in the trailer with whatever else. I was hauling. Then sell them for two bucks two and a half bucks along. I seventy five. The Derby City was my number one spot. Thanks to this woman Janet. I worked here at the Derby City truckstop twenty-five years China waited tables and she would let me come and sell those watermelons right in the restaurant back then and seems John was always here always told the drivers. I wore out two floors in here twice as walking. Oh well I had never waitress perform alive. And My mother's neighbor was the manager here and she kept begging me to come to work here and it took her a year to talk me into. Because I'd never said I'm not waitress material. I was really shy backwards and these drivers brought me out of that quick. Some of them call me. The mud. Flap girl the girl under mud flaps. When I was younger they said was built like her. And that's what they would call me and I would say y'all hush this get it on the counter impose liker as get Outta here. Actually I met Janet because a fellow driver. I knew it was just crazy about her. I call him Jake. He came in and he was like. Oh my God oh my God check. The side of the channel looked exactly like a certain country music star. Tammy wanted he says I looked like tame to one so he called her tammy and it kind of caught on a lot of the customers. They would also call me. Dami in this one guy. He really thought that was my main. This is a type of nonsense at truck stop. Waitresses put up with all the time but Janet had a special way of handling ourselves with such drivers. Actually my first day on the fuel desk. I sold a record amount of fuel in you. Know what really don it? I would get on the radio and I'd say they say what do you look like us? It will honey. They call me four by four. I'd say four foot tall four foot wide and four hundred pounds into this Gibert came in said she's lying. Y'All said now you type your load with payer my bloomers like bad you know in the he said guys she's lying she's about Bob. One hundred twenty five pounds and she's Gorgeous. Well the rest of the day that kept on and on and on they were just pouring in here by fuel because of that she flat CB viral there for awhile. I've heard I've probably heard every pickup line. You could ever imagine this driver. Come in and kept aggravating. What my phone number. Sasha's made up a number and gave it to any came back a couple of weeks later. He said that wasn't the right number. I said what do you mean? That wouldn't right number. He said that was a nursing home. I said Hill. That's where I live. They let me come to work. Pay My rent but it was just a joke you know and he just died laughing and there's several times came really aggravate now would give him the sheriff's department phone number but I was always real quick with a comeback. You know drivers that. I always tell them. Don't mess with their man. You can't get nothing over but for me like when I worked here and I was raised in for kids by myself. You know my life of Saudi here was rough rough so it was like when I walk through these doors. I forgot about being a mother at home and it was like a getaway for me actually became a getaway because I cut up and carried on with the drivers so much and enjoy my job so much but then when I walked out the door I was back to be a mom again. You know this job really helped me. It really did. That's why I was here. The twenty five years. The person that said she couldn't be a waitress wasn't waitress. Material became to love it. Are WE ON RECORDING? Okay then you let her ex questions. Because I don't want a lawn after our lunch of soup beans and fried catfish were lucky enough to run into the owner of the Derby city. I am Evelyn Mitchell. Folks Color Miss. Evelyn and I live in Mount Vernon Kentucky. And that's where this Derby City South Truck Plaza sits exit sixty two. That's my favorite number busy woman so we get right down to business. So the mystery is the nanometer pudding where of the Manor Pudding Start? That's really miss. Evelyn says it all started right here in the country and they call the potato tater and tomato major and that Nandor pudding yum. Yeah come and get you saw. And I don't know it just caught on and everybody is came thing okay. We've heard this kind of argument before up at the seventy six but miss. Evelyn offers US her take wrapped in a history lesson. Let's see eye opening sixty eight. It started sometime in the seventies. I'd say and that's how we get into the unlikely story of how she became the owner of a truckstop. Al's Lake County Bougainville. Evan was born way out in the eastern tip of Kentucky. No Way to get there from here. She worked in the fields. I was strong and boy in the kitchen that know how to cook when a married on. Evelyn left home. She didn't know a CB handle was but we have several pots and pans and have handle and she didn't even like Country Music Wail. I listen to classical and I listen to Barbara Streisand Nat King Cole yet here. She is running a truck stop. It's a long story. But I was schoolteacher. Oldest daughter was in college and all at once. I couldn't pay for her tuition and so I said you'd have to do something different. And there was this little rinky-dink truck building. The bank was repossessing. It and they wanted someone to take over the payments. I just jumped in with both feet up to my ears and took it over just taught every day when over at nighttime and and yes I can do repair work. I know how to matter now. Drive nails out of Saul and how to hang drywall and how to finish it. So that's how I got started but it gets better because that was just her first truckstop. The Derby City North opened a nineteen sixty eight. She and her husband ran. That stopped together until she found out that he was stealing from her. Two things you don't mess with me. Mets my family and my money taken that money at least a bit of land then. He couldn't finish what he hit started. And so In order to keep himself out of jail and get my money back I took beliefs over. Built it from scratch and that bit of land is where she built the Derby city south where we're sitting right now. Nine thousand eighty six. We opened in when I came down. Here I'm going. Oh my God so just to recap miss. Evelyn has been in the truckstop aims and she opened her first business in nineteen sixty eight and according to her. That's where the natter putting started. He he had no and it spread across the country. There's copycats everywhere you know. She doesn't name names but there's no doubt who she's talking about our neighbor down there they picked up there saying and copied it. Couldn't you be talking about the forty Niner fuel center? Just down the road. That's the third of my favorite Kentucky truck stops after the break. We head there for answers. Introduce you to my favorite singing waitress. All of Appalachia you do now. The story behind the manor put Okay so we visited the seventy sixer. We've visited Derby city now. All this left has a forty nine exit forty nine days office south obesity. But you feel the difference. We are definitely in the mountains now. What they call the Cumberland plateau north and southbound route the forty nine fuel centers surrounded by nothing just hills and trees but when we stopped by the places busy. Typical is white on a hundred people or more. And we're in luck. My old friend genevieve is in the middle of a twelve hour shift. Wore a phone only for about a month and I average anywhere from six miles a day to fifteen to eighteen miles a day depending on how busy we are. We'll tell you how I became close with genevieve. Oh I've been coming in here for years and never set much early. Sometimes you could hear singing while she worked so one day. I took a chance and gave her my. Cd turned on. She was working on an album or self taught musician buddies dollar. Did the clay until here is mixed today. Some four wheelers stopping in for gas a retired couple in their RV more than a few truck drivers. I'm everbody psychiatrist. I'm everybody's nurse I'm everybody's bring your food. I'm ever I'm I'm a lot of things to a lot of drivers. But which has a spare minute to be gives us her. Take on the manner pudding seventy six or saying that started up there sixty to saint. It started with them. Do have an opinion on that. It started right here at the forty nine and life powder Nanu Nanu Nanu Nanu Putin for many many many years like miss. Evelyn genevieve has a theory. But I think they've just all three copied it because at one time the owner here was over all the other two turns out that the owner of the forty niner used to own. The other fuel stops not the restaurants but just a few business that fuel company called spur oil. Is the one connection. Between all these stops all came from spur oil. The plot thickens. I believe I'd like some manner pudding I figure it's time to get a taste of what this whole controversy is all about. Thank you we gotta get your first reaction to the Banana Putin I just when I think we've gotten to the bottom of this thing. Genevieve throws in another curveball. Awfully good manner. Put Nacala Banana Pudding because they call it manner put and you you do the story behind the manor. Put the story. Well it's a sexual story so I really don't want to comment on it as what Nanu Nanu Nanu or Putin is the guy the guys come and get the female. That's what the Putin is always thought that that undertone. Yeah putting we say banana pudding. Sure enough that Perry daily it hard for ourselves out on the rue manner. Now honey whiz just banana put your ass good day hunting. That's the truth the whole truth and nothing the truth you found the bottom of IT Q. At some of that out there I actually pulled a couple trucking buddies about this interpretation of the Manor Pudding. Neither of these guys are boy scouts but they both said they thought it was just putting and of story for Karen and Miss Evelyn. It's the same just pudding. But for many drivers I know there remains the certain mystique around the southern woman. She calls some flat better from Michigan. Baby over the CB and he just melts because ain't nobody calling him baby up there in flint so the manor pudding becomes an extension of all that there. Anything comes of it or not. There's still one more. Twist in this manner pudding thing but before we get there. I'm going to share a little more of genevieve story so after a shift she leads us down a series of winding country roads. Well this is my work home here in Eastbourne. Stay at what? She calls her work home. It's an RV trailer park. Tony French property actual homers in Hyden Kentucky more than an hour east of here in the mountains. I work two days on today's Office Forty Niner. Alima home at five thirty a M. I arrive at the forty niner at six forty five. Get off work after a twelve hour shift and sometimes longer and then. I go back to work the next morning and when I get off work I drove hour and fifteen minutes to return back to my hometown. And I've been doing that for quite some time. She does all that to support her family. That's an important thing to remember about these. Mom and pop truck stops for women like Janet genevieve. These places offered just enough money to raise four kids all on their own and part of the country. That doesn't have a lot of other opportunities. I'll I grew up in the most beautiful place in the world is there was no. There's no other place on. The planet comes from coal country. It's lots of mountains coal mining. Good people I grew up in a cul count what they call a CO count There was ten houses on one side of ten on the other. My father worked in a coal mines. It was probably now taller than what the table is. Run over there on his hands and as he worked for a dollar a day and then he got raised up to three dollars a day and we thought we were rich. He saved up enough money to buy Little House with the grocery store on it. That's where genevieve worked her first job. Serving up lunch for the coal miners. That I've I got married young and divorced young and might have family and had to take care much when she was thirteen when she had her first child. Nineteen when she got divorced. Then I want to work in the coal mines. I'd get dirty in black and code Al over me and little black things in you is that you couldn't get out and your hands were pitiful looking and it was rough for a woman rough. I was tomboy. Guess I did everything daddy did. And He'd used me for an example he'd tell him grown man if you worked as hard as that girl record did then we get something done and so now. How did you wind up working at the forty nine Was just going to Lexington one day and stop there to get gas and they had a sign in the window said they needed to white. You're so I applied. That's a long commute though from Haydn. A over there where I live. And it's just an all small town and there's for the Coleman's went down bad and things like that. There's a lot jobs. There's not a lot of work and now there's what three gas stations couple restaurants two or three pharmacies in one read lot. There's no hope there's no hope of landing a job there and God knows if I ever made it successful in live. I'm going to figure out how to get jobs. Those people yes I would. That would be my number. One go is take out a few mountains. Put an interstate in. Because if you don't have your interstates you can't get the goods to the people to make things successful in your community. I'm really struck when she says that about putting an interstate right through those mountains I mean what some might see as destroying the beauty of this place she sees as its only hope then again it kind of makes sense because that's where genevieve found her job working truckstop by the interstate and back to the manner Putin and then out of nowhere genevieve brings us back to the niner pudding yes After we spoke today earlier was speaking with Mar- USA kitchen manager at the forty niner. In Mark said the Banana Putin would have to go all the way back to the sixty two to Miss Evelyn. Because she's the oldest truck stop in this area of the three and that banana would have to start with her. Well I'd say for the purposes of this podcast. At least we can call the question settled. Credit has to go worker at it is due in the credit goes to miss. I have one still no. There will always be those diehard holdout to will never be swayed on this subject no matter the evidence in Kentucky Georgia. There's an old saying and trucking and this is a kind of saying you see printed on coffee mugs and keychains arguing with a truck drivers like wrestling the pig in the mud. Sooner or later you realized the pig just likes it so out here. I'm afraid that manner manner putting feud will never truly be settled just couple days after that conversation with Jenner. Be Passing through Kentucky again on my way to Florida as long as three truck stops are hanging on. It's always a tough call which one I should stop at for dinner but on this night I pull off at exit. Forty nine part of the draw here is this truck. Stop is located smack DAB in the middle of the Daniel Boone National Forest. And there's a walking trail right behind the restaurant once when I didn't know genevieve well. I told her I was going to hike that mountain behind the stop she said Mountain. I mean that driveway. There was no way I could live down being a hoosier flat-lander after that to this is no mountain ridge maybe but not a mountain. There's a hard hill at the beginning and then levels out deep in the forest. You can't hear the interstate anymore. The trees get very sick then after two and a half miles of this at the end of that walk is a perfectly manicured family cemetery. So you might think you're in the wilderness. But you're really not people live out here. Genevieve is right. I know it takes more than just a little ridge behind a truck. Stop to make a mountain the night of our interview and she and her husband. Dewey invited us into their immaculate on. They sang us as saw and I could hear the real mountains in their voices. Only hard road is the row. Daddy leaves he's Fanling Sense. Mommy went home. He's sure Termi Memories. All BS Gull Longley hard road. Is the NATTY. Leaves them when you over the road you can sign yourself to ally of relational brevity all these people you made. Genevieve Janet Karen people who should be passing acquaintances to become endeared to you just knowing they'll still be there becomes a personal treasure. Something you look forward to in another wise throwaway world you come to admire them. The people and the truck stops for their fierce resilience. There's parochial pride and claiming. Yes I knew Janet back when she was. Cbs viral luring in the freight haulers. Like so many flies. There's real satisfaction recounting the days when Karen and our late husband. Abner of the seventy six used to grill out at the fuel island feeding drivers like me and even charging a dime any holds her. Son You don't even will yourself into this family just happens just like how. Kathie and I started talking over our meal at the seventy six. Sometimes on those relationships are lost on the truckstop closes and those people are gone to you forever as into the ether kind of death for. I ten inch like me 'cause for morning here on lonely and roll along. Whom is the room? Daddy lose him. He's the sense. Mommy Mommy win home. Sure missile her memory all. He's long only Arnie. Room is the row. Johnny Leaves Long. Only hard. Road is the rolled Daddy John next week on the show. Our producer Lacy Jane. Roberts is taking out to Montana to meet the family. Did you miss your husband? Oh Yeah and they miss their dad to. We'll be talking about. How trucking affects those closest to us our partners and children. So you were the bad cop. Good cop thanks to everyone entrusted us with their stories especially Vicente of even dewey entrusted us with their song lonely heart road. We'll catch you next time over. There are over the road. Pit crew include producer and sound designer in costs and contributing producer. Lacy Roberts transmitter media are editor from overdrive magazine is Todd. Dill's our digital producer. Is Aaron Wade? Our product managers Audrey Markevic and our executive producer for radio. Topa is Julie Shapiro. I'm long all Paul. All the music on the show is by Ian cost and myself featuring performances by travis. The snake man Womack Terry to SOx Richardson Tissue Mingo. Jim Whitehead jenn grant. Call it the Lake Crepe Roger Clark and Mr Andrew Marshall Additional engineering by Donna Gullit down in muscle shoals Alabama special. Thanks for this episode. Goes to my lovely wife. Denise who wrote along with us in Kentucky while we recorded this episode for some reason and it's just me out here to be honest. It's tough to get anyone to open up. When did me says with me? Everyone wants to talk over. The road is made possible by support from the folks. I've worked for for a really long time. Moeller trucking now celebrating over thirty years of safe and reliable transportation for the food industry for more information. Check out muller. Trucking DOT COM OVER. The road is a collaboration between overdrive magazine and PR XS radio. Tovia a collection of the best independent podcasts. Around give serious thought to binging Air Hustle on your next thousand mile run. The show began as a collaboration between an actual San Quentin inmate. Name Airline Woods and visual artists. I Joe Poor about what I've is really like behind bars. I'm also recommending air hustle to you because when I had a lot of questions about how to do this podcast. I reached out to Oregon just weeks after his sentence was commuted by then governor Jerry Brown. He pretty much gave me the road map of how to do this job at a matter of a ten minute phone conversation. I'm forever and a step for that seriously. Find out more about the whole network at Radio Tovia Dot. Fm Look for overdrive magazine at overdrive online dot com where you can read touch channel nineteen blog here the overdrive radio podcast and explorer news business and lifestyle reporting about trucking. You can find over the road online at over the road dot. Fm sure to follow us on all of those usual platforms to facebook twitter and Instagram at over the road pod. You can see some of my videos on Youtube. By looking for long-haul Paul Music. Thanks for listening hanging into the end of the run. We'll be back next week with more stories from over there. Oh we'll be back next week with more stories from over the road it's late on Punchy. My apologies to thirty three in the morning that he was stealing from her. We get right down just a bit of land. That push pudding started. Sounds are awed all again trying harder to do. Really cool writ head. But we're the Rosemead Padre. I assure bicycle workflow really longtime molar. Trucking the early next time over there. Oh ooh thanks for listening to over the road. Another radio topiary show you might like is is love from the creators of criminal. This is love is back with its fourth season the kind of stories we need right now. This season brings us a family. Drama of rival Wolf Packs a dog who guides his owner out of tragedy and a retired central park. Police Horse. Here take a listen or on the move. The movie twister. Helen Hunt Up. Do you think this twister hi. It's phoebe This is love is back and for our fourth season. We're going outside and the entire iceberg that we had just been inside of was cracking and breaking and dissolving into these huge chunks of ice. I was just speechless all new stories. Starting April first about animals in the wild and what happens when we take time to look around us better with animals and people. You like them better. Would you rather spend your day with a horse than the Group of guys? Don't complain subscribe now to. This is love wherever you get your podcast. 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Kentucky Janet genevieve Genevieve Janet Karen Derby City overdrive magazine Nanu Nanu Nanu Putin Evelyn genevieve Evelyn Paul Music Truck Plaza Kathy Jerry Brown Denise Lacy Jane Tiscali Grammy Award Florida Petite Kentucky obesity Radio Topiary
391- Over the Road

99% Invisible

44:34 min | 1 year ago

391- Over the Road

"This is ninety nine percent invisible. I'm ruined Mars. Nine happy is to give you the tools to deco the built world in cities in the country and the highways in between it's those highways and the truckers that drive the American economy that is the subject of the new radio. Topiary show called over the road. The podcast is a window into a world that you pass by at sixty five miles an hour without giving much thought but it is so fascinating you will never see semi truck the same way again. Every night beautiful marriages subscribe. It does appear. Here's the first episode of over. The road hosted by long-haul Paul. Four years ago I was northbound on. I seventy five and Knoxville Tennessee. My cargo a load of imported watermelons they had sailed on a container ship from Guatemala. To South Florida where they were transferred by forklift onto big trucks driven by folks like me. These were those tiny seedless designer types. They call personal watermelons. How always wondered about the marketing cat? Who came up with that one personal watermelons? It's like a watermelon. You can have as a friend. I was pulling a refrigerated trailer back. Then I refer as we call them a reverse a heavily insulated box trailer equipped with a giant diesel-powered temperature control unit. It's actually got the capacity to maintain more than forty thousand pounds of perishable freight at temperatures as cold as twenty below. It was rush hour in Knoxville or K. Town and trucker code traffic came to a screeching halt at the junction of I seventy five and I six forty. I got stopped time but the trucker behind me well not so much shoot rear ended. I took a minute to collect myself and walked to the back of the trailer to check I on the other driver. He said he was okay. Then I opened the vent hatch to check my load. What's seconds before had been perfectly picked personal? Watermelon was now pro lapsing through its ruptured rind down the crumple exterior of what had once been the trailer. Stainless steel door in on my trembling hand. Sorry Friend unbeknownst to me at the time this baptism and a puree of personal watermelon would come to being my own creative big bang. Strangely as a result of this event I would come to be a part time recording artist a contributor for overdrive magazine and now even a card carrying podcasts producing Radio Tobin. I'm long haul Paul. You're listening to over the road. I got the Lucy. You Lucia for your Komo truck it up baby on the top of this mountain and I know I still gotta get down the other side somehow and I'm so scared I'm shaking but I know quite a few drivers swear by roasting salmon over there engine. We were willing to take a pot bellied pig. We tried to even pick up a sixty pound tortoises. Ain't that anymore. What why should it be that? Here's how this is going to work. We've been traveling all over the country down the highways and the hedges collecting the real stories of real people who live and work over the road. We've got eight episodes for you and each one. We explore. How trucking his changing today. At along the way I'll tell you a few of my own stories. Heck I might even Shing-yuan few songs. Let's start out at a place called the Kentucky Expo Center and Louisville home to the mid America trucking show or mats for short think of a Home Depot about twelve times. Its normal size. Then fill it with trucks truck drivers and every possible thing. Anyone has ever thought of to make a buck off trucker networks. So what we're selling is bedbug eaters truckers that have cavs ninety thousand people with some concerts and swag. And you've got the mid America trucking show. You've got your air freshener dudes odor eliminator products for the highway professionals. Not Those guys. We say three sprays last for days. Tell me about this beef jerky you've got those old boys you make the beef jerky you'll ever eat. He'll that really tender. Actually both those guys to we are insurance company specialising owner operators or the international vendors hoping to land that pig contract. I shall cover solve our big truck. Makers are here like Ken. Works and Peter Babaar new five. Seventy Nine ultra loft in its black castle model truckmaker high proud to tell people. I can't afford a real one but I can hook you up with a real nice. But for many longtime gear jammers that signifies something more. It's a Hobo convention of sorts. A chance to see all trucking buddies and to swap stories. And that's why we're here if you want to know what's going on in the trucking world. This is a good place to start but first let's cover some basics. There are four point two million Americans who hold a CDL does a commercial driver's license a CDL allows us to drive a vehicle weighing over twenty six thousand pounds together. We move seventy percent of all domestic freight. Think of it everything you see at the store everything you buy online move spite truck at some point. Add it all up. We're talking about a seven hundred billion dollar industry moving literally fifty five billion pounds of stuff every day at that rate. American truckers could haul off the great pyramid of Giza Stone by stone about five times a day. Of course there are lots of different types of truckers and trucks out there refrigerated freight truck that caller reefer trust. You know like what I drive flatbed. We should call him. Skateboards US big flat trailers with loads of lumber and steel called of the bed. Boettger is a furniture holler tanker truck we call a tanker Ganger. I drive one of those sometimes to talk. How board accountable I mean. There's all kinds of terminology for as you can imagine. We have our own factions. Clegson hierarchies bettors usually associated with the river. Guys like me and the ball. Hollers could never see themselves as freight haulers part door. Swingers has called them. Because all a door swinger does backup to the darkened. Swing the doors open and shut our show. They say here for three days at least none of that matters. We're all just drivers and not a one of us. Came here to have a bad time. Volvo dynamic steering with stability assist is a new innovation from Volvo trucks. Allowed lot of the talk at Matt's this year there's about new technology when a truck starts to skin. It seems every part of the truck has got a computer in it. Now who's been concedes turned on even the seat notice. How much of the bouncing is evil eliminated by active suspension seats? Computer controlled motor. And there's a feeling the technology is not just changing the truck but a changing us and the way we do business that the codes and culture of trucking are eroding. Before is we've ever met are just real like I think it lasts bump into a facebook friend on the show floor aimed. Greg Murphy now works for Uber through a resume. And if you're never going to happen yes. The rideshare company Uber. And here I am now Greg. You have a unique story because you are a longtime truckdriver exactly. Yes become like the public relations liaison for Uber. Exactly kind of the interpreter. I would call it between The trucking community and Uber frayed crank is affable middle aged or the salt and pepper beard and a cool Fedora. More truckdriver than computer person. That's for sure all around him is a veritable failings of Uber's black-shirted millennials. But Greg speaks fluent trucker and so he pulls out his phone and shows me okay. Another middle aged guy and yet another FIDORA opens up. How do you see Uber Free App and it knows it? I'm in Louisville today so thinking about it and so it has these little cards for each load right so incentive connecting cars with riders frame as connecting Tux. With loads off to us. Greg if you would so this is from Walton Kentucky to Los Alamos California for three thousand seventy s the price for this load eighteen hundred miles. It has what type of trailer the load number and all that What it is the wait. Oh I have to do is tap. That card and the load is nine. No phone calls. No haggling technologies coming and it's We need to embrace it and and be part of the conversation. I have to wonder them at three thousand bucks on a state of distance of eighteen. Hundred Miles doesn't know. Haggle simply mean. Take it or leave it. You have no choice. I'm going to confess to you. There is a primal fear about the power of a company like this change overall is just difficult for people to embrace. It's unfamiliar. We don't know what it's going to look like that creates anxiety that said truckers are embracing new technology and using it for their own benefit. You've got quite a hat collection way back when I gave myself heatstroke by being stupid take Sandra Gucci. Basically you tell how the people were treated you if you're a professional if there was a bathroom that you could use because there's a lot of places that don't allow truckers to use the bathroom. She's told me about doc. Four one one. It's a reading at basically like for loading docks. You kinda helped the trucker after you or the person after you. They've surveyed over ten thousand truckers about their experiences. Sandra Harris talk for one. One number one reviewer if they have forklifts that use forklifts on her some of the other attributes Stephen that you can think of if there's overnight parking if you can sleep there overnight. Parking Sandra drives us a team with her husband. Stephen how you were treated professional. If I was to read the review that I put in for this one doc I would never take freight into the stock. We went in there the first time and we waited three hours to get unloaded which that's okay. Second time we went in there. We waited thirteen hours. No bathrooms no facilities and couldn't leave. The truck refuse like that are ending up and turned into a scorecard for every dock. They do business with DOC forewoman. It's one of those things that it's like it's never going to be complete because there's always going to be new docks but it's going to be a big relief taller structures but they're still another technology on truckers minds at. Matt's this year right now log something much more consequential than a new APP electronic log situations become a pretty big issue that's called an e county mandate has electric walking vice didn't need any log versus a log. I mean most of the time. That's the biggest thing. Iran this log issue is all playing out right now and a pretty much. The biggest change. That's come to our culture since I started trucking no bowl. Hundreds of big rigs took over highway ninety nine in protest today. Creating truckers have even put on protests about these guys ninety. Five southbound is shutdown. I'm one of those things that just keeps coming up in our conversations with drivers so on our first day at Matt's we find ourselves at the vintage Meru peterbilt someone who's been at the centre so much of the protest. Yes so My Name's Mike Landes from lititz Pennsylvania Amish Country Town Lancaster County I got into trucking right out of high school pretty much. I got my CDL. After I graduated first time I got behind the wheel. Driving School to local Vo Tech it was all downhill from. There are about how truckers record. They're driving and working hours. So yeah we have What the car hours of service which is Once you come on duty you're allowed fourteen hours of working time Eleven of that fourteen can be driving. But then you have to take ten hours off before you can go back to work so every day. Get fourteen hours on duty and you have to take ten hours off. Problem with that is is that once you start your day. Your clock for the day doesn't stop now in the past. Those hours were recorded and paper logbooks. Every driver kept a set of books in the cab recorded their time with a pen on a four line grid and made that log available to inspectors and state patrol. Basically iraq-related yourself so to me. That's important because I was taught the old way of trucking. You know you do what you gotTa do to get the job done. But you sleep when you're tired and you know you truck when you're awake if you took a quick nap and your shift or ran a little over the time limit you could juggle that cleric. I mean you. Don't turn into a Zombie. Just because you're five minutes past your time and fall asleep and drive offside road you could chuckle until the electronic logging device and basically what that does is it hooks into the computer on the motor of the truck and it records everything you do. You know how hard you're on a throttle how hard you're on a break and you're moving. Stop your speed the whole nine yards. It counts down every second of your day so whereas before on a paper logbook. If you're five minutes past your time pointing a truck stop. Nobody knew the difference. No harm no foul. But now I mean I've seen people backed halfway in a parking spot and truck stops already. Because if they finish backing up their yield these. Put them in violation. Go another fifty beaten back drubbing. Parking spot you hear stories like this all the time truck speech like Wales and the most God awful places because their drivers ran out of hours. You've probably seen those trucks yourself That's because in December twenty seventeen a new mandate came into effect requiring. Virtually all trucks on the road to run an electronic log and to me it's a slap in the face driving a truck at eighteen years old. I'm now thirty. Three closing in on two million miles. I have a clean driving record to me. All comes down to the way I was taught that comes down to the responsibility of knowing you're operating an eighty thousand pound machine and the fact that they're going to tell me that I need this thing in my truck to keep me safe on. The road doesn't sit well with me at all. I I hear you loud and clear we do. These texts Texas Florida triangles. A lot denise Stepmother is dying. She's in Louisiana Nursing Home and we want to see her. She's days away from dying literally days away from that and I'm on. Aol Deep. We stopped to see her and essentially. We've got to say goodbye to her in about forty five minutes because our fourteen our caucus taking and I just have this moment of complete clarity. That something's gotTa give and there's a lot of people that will say. Hey that's not true. They don't force you to drive tired. They don't force you to not take a shower. Yada Yada Yada well. I mean you're right. The thing doesn't reach up and grab me and tell me I need to keep trucking but the sad reality is is they kind of do now. I should say here that Mike does not run any lock. The reason my truck don't need one is because the cutoff date is two thousand and newer need them and ninety nine and older. Do not so. It's ninety nine. Peterbilt is just to all to connect to a computer. But Mike has done more than just. Avoid the new regulation. It's actually fighting it so we started United States Transportation Alliance and The unique thing about us is that all of us are drivers that met through doing protests. Type stuff You know for the industry and Nobody out here. That is making these rules. Regulations or pushing for rules or regulations have ever sat behind the wheel for any amount of time and definitely not anytime recently. So you know when we go to DC and we go every month right now we park our trucks we meet with congressmen and senators and FMCSA. That's the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. Truckload carriers met with the so. It's been it's been a pretty good thing. And we were fortunate enough to help with the our service center supposed to be changed. I'm actually expecting an announcement here at Matt's for that. In fact the keynote speaker for the weekend is none other than Elaine Chao. The United States Secretary of Transportation So we're hoping that it has to do something with that. Realize things change with the times and technology goes mattiello thing but truck and still trucking and I chose me personally. I chose to drive a truck because I grew up around trucks and I love trucks and for me you know it sounds kind of Corny but the other. We got invited to a concert by someone that we know backstage and stuff afterwards. You're hanging out and watching this guy up on stage. You could tell he was just in his zone and I said the best way I could describe watching you on stage like me riding across the California Arizona Desert with a truck pressed out in the Moonlit night chicken lights on Pike Singing and dry cruising and some people are like. I don't get it. You're just driving a truck down the road and I'm like yeah but to me it's more than just driving a truck down the road you know. It's the freedom of it and that's kind of being taken away. What the bad part is they help. If we don't do anything to help fight stuff guys like me are going to be gone soon after the break here that big announcement from Elaine Chao but I venture out onto the parking lot at Matt's we'll hear why this log thing is such a big deal and I'll tell you what gave me and how. Ld's lead at least indirectly to the making of this podcast You're listening to over the road on ninety nine percent of his bowl here again is over the road. Hey folks todd dills here. I'm the senior editor with overdrive magazine. Which is helping to produce this podcast for those of you are new. This trucking world overdrive basically a trade publication for independent truckers ones. Who owned the rigs a whole with for many years? We've called ourselves the voice of the American trucker in so part of what we wanted to do with this podcast to actually build a little bridge between highway. Haulers who read overdrive. And well the uninitiated among you. So I'm going to be hosting special series of mini episodes or I'll take questions from those of you outside the business and put them directly to our trucking listeners. We're calling the Channel One nine special after the CB radio channel used for trucker to trucker information sharing the first channel. One nine episode will show up in your feed next week. But I'm dropping in now to ask a quick favor if you've got questions about trucking seriously about anything at all having to do with no question is too simple or too strange. Give us a call at seven. Six five two four five four eight four four and leave us a message again. Seven six five two four five four eight four four. Be Sure to state your name and location with your question and thanks okay so back to the mid America trucking show. I WanNa pick things up the next morning. Outside in the parking lot or drivers are busy polishing their trucks. I love truck and it's a lifestyle. It's not a job lifestyle. They're actually two parking lots of Chuck's at Manse each with its own vibe. There's this show lot and Papa. John's lot we'll explain why it's called that in a minute but the show lot is home. The Paul Key Young Truck Beauty Championship. And that's where we start our day. My Name's Deborah Jones. I'm working on excessive behavior number one Eric. Turner neighbor my truck. Is Showtime Lose Fresher? Down here for your term. You check out my scrapbook trigger valve. This is a place where trucks have names. The ghost is a nineteen ninety six freightliner classic exile part of the family. It goes says my big daryl. Phyllis is my little nervous tuned. Those little amber bulb we call chicken lights very rival chicken lights and they won't Crown White carpeting wood floors. It's actually just a wooden Florida. You get from Home Depot really for the competition itself. Trucks are organized into different sections marked off with plastic ropes. There are categories like antique custom limited. Mileage bobtail working class bobtail working Combo. Meaning I put miles on my trip. My favorite the antique original. I cut my teeth on one of these trucks. Trans Star International. There's nothing like the. Am radio reception on. All Steel made old school western style. Own there are teams working entire year to PREPA truck for this show up soon guys Polish on a day and a half and they're still rubbing now breathe it fleet it. If you believe as I do that a truck can be a work of art and this is the Guggenheim. There's a lot of history. There are a lot of our lives has been spent in it under it over and everything squirrel jury. We've done this job. How much would you have to have this charge two hundred green? What sort of installment plan would you consider? We couldn't do that. Thank you sir. Yes Sir as we leave the show lot. I know that two hundred Grand Peterbilt will never be mind. Let's face it. I'm more of a papa. John's type this lot serves a University of Louisville Football Stadium formerly known as Papa John's Stadium. The university dropped that name after the pizza. Magnate found himself in hot water but for truckers the shorthand stuck in any case picture a stadium parking lot with rows upon rows of tractor trailers. Only thing is these aren't show trucks. These are just the trucks. People drove here to attend the one with the shoestrings on the stone on what the statute of limitations. They're all out here now with our camping. Chairs gas grills coolers walking their dogs in the Kentucky Spring Air. It's maybe the biggest tailgate in all trucking big enough but you can actually lose your truck in it at the show lot. I didn't see a single person I knew but down here. In steerage it's different. I'm digging back new chrome bumper. Tell you what happened. The last one wasn't the deer. Now remember that. What's his name. Be in the back of my head later that night. There's even an impromptu concert. Let's get back to it now and guess who gets invited to say flat out there any flatbeds okay. Great Yeah and the end. Another side Gig. I'm a singer Songwriter. Got A friend. He felt deeply in love with a female flat better but when she learned that he pulled a reefer. She rejected him because he didn't know how you know the chains and the binder and it's called. I'll never run that back door anymore. She laid down and drought me on NASCAR more teen and put it in. Says you couldn't live with the guilt. What we done in that Peterbilt and never back. Nobody conscience like this or a reenactment of a bygone age drivers would be laid over at some truckstop. Someone would bring out a grill. Someone would contribute a case of beer. Someone might commandeer a chicken or two off their load someone. I just have a guitar swinger. Maybe that's why this log thing is such a big deal because there just doesn't seem to be time for those encounters anymore and maybe that's why I still come back here to hear the stories. The stories had seduced me into this live so long ago. I started grabbing in eighty-eight hall now to Mississippi Furniture that same night. Luton to guiding. Tim Ed they will tell you right. Quit life if you cannot turn five thousand miles a week. We don't need you. We've got a stack applications over here this thing we can replace you. Tamar and of course did you know you know our take a great job of good creighton. Nope and I would do allied ever three or four hundred miles for some there really. Was this dark side to the old days. I mean taking whatever drugs you could take to stay away. Stories like this of trucking's wilder days really. Aren't that hard to come by around here. We were stopped exit thirty in Tennessee. Eight hundred two hundred ever Jay for some reason it now which is aches fever. I think we've been herded onto the digital reservation of the law is like we have to tell these stories. I remember one time. I went all the way to Boston out trying to get through traffic trying to get back Massachusetts state. Police pulls me over. He passbook pockets. I had a cargo pads. The bottle was down at the bottom of it. He missed it. I could have got years in the penitentiary. Then so I I go down to the rest of the Rhode Island and I celebrate not do B. Two lines. It's not just to get back but the it was it to get high. It was due a job. It was for for your work. It was a recreational is turn it miles turning bird off of that stuff. There's three ways you get off a crane meth jail the grave Jesus How's it ever Rela and I'd been up two or three days and I pray you know. Help me. And he spoke to me. He said it's up to you is through the grace of God that I got off of it. So you're now you're off the crank. Yes he's prayed. God's intervene what do you tell your boss at needs? Five thousand miles a week from you told. I can't do it. I work for myself. How OPERATOR DOWN? Thank God he delivered me from that aspect too now. I worked when I won't they gotta be delivered. I got my I E L D back in Twenty. Sixteen a few months after that watermelon wreck. I told you about a Knoxville the fleet I worked for announce that we would roll out an e log pilot program. Guinea pigs were needed. Something about Knoxville. Jarred me more than it should have for years. I had pushed myself to the limit as a produce Holler and had never been bothered by the what ifs but after Knoxville. It just seemed like my nine lives. Were at that time. The log felt like kind of a way out of all that. So I let Brenda our safety officer. No I would give it a try. That's right folks. I volunteered when the day came. They trained me on how to operate the dog. Which recorded the trucks data straight onto a basic samsung tablet. The company told me not to go crazy on net flicks and off. I went to Thomas now carting around this brand new tablet. I started recording some of my songs and posting them. On Youtube Dream Some Ikea's I also began writing about my experience of being an old trucker who had to make the log switch. I mostly did this as a Cathartic exercise but on a whim. I sent some of these ramblings to an editor at overdrive magazine named Todd. Dell's you heard from todd earlier. Todd wound up giving the shot on this blog. Now on this podcast. So at the risk of being shunned by all my friends I have to say in a way I all this to eat. Locks limit to sin is ruling Downer. Watch good been with shoebox songs just pushing that tents sleeping but enough about me. He took all weekend. Drivers are waiting for that big update that Mike was telling us about on the new rules for e logs. What we call hours of service. Yeah we've had a few people sign up to be members and stuff so far while we've been gladys even has a booth set up on the showroom floor of Matt dropped a couple thousand dollars out of my own company to build the booth and we'd trucked here in this whole crew here dressed in their matching black shirts you know. Get the word out there and show people who are what we're doing and what better place to do it where thousands of truck drivers at one spot. It's been a year now since E. L. D. mandate went into effect. And we're all feeling it in one way or the other so he's sit through long seminars by government administrators but no news then on our last day at Matt's Transportation Secretary. Elaine Chao gets up to give us the keynote address if the DOT has something to say this would be the time but right away the power goes out would eventually comes back. Why laughing but she gets to what we're all waiting to hear so me and the Department of board the nest at which is remaining service so I can't deal hard stance still nothing no news. Sirius just then alarm. Sounds trying to tell us. Tell you this instead. The speech turns to the usual platitudes mates. Were I'm so tired of that line? Read two here on our Blah Blah Blah Eric. Without really saying much of anything at all. Elaine Chao beds us all farewell. Mid America trucking show closed the next day. Trucks drove out in formation while the PAPA. John's lot gradually disbanded. Matt's was done but we're just getting started. We're going to keep following this L. D. issue across the series. We'll hear how Mike Landes brought his fight to the streets of Washington D. C. and found unlikely allies in the process for some context. We'll go deep into the history of trucking with one of my favorite writers. We'll hang out at truck stops and meet the families of truckers to understand how this business affects the people around us and we'll pair onto a future where trucks may just drive themselves. But I were going to Grand Island Nebraska to find out why anyone would want to drive a truck in the first place. I was intrigued and so I called her up and I said No. Now come again about this truck driving. What did you say thanks to? Everyone entrusted us with their stories. We'll catch you again over the road. Momma said John You know you can become whatever you want to be so by Grace Brown for her to see became the sea in nineteen years old. I was wrestling bowling alley. Call me one day. Now it's down on the blood flow takes everything in its way and when takes a lot of people make a podcast? I'm going to tell you about all of them over. The road pit crew includes producer and sound designer Ian Costs and contributing producer. Lacy Roberts Transmitter. Media are editor overdrive. Magazines Todd Dill's our digital producer is Erin Wade. Our project manager is Audrey Markevic and our executive producer for radio. Topa Julie Shapiro. I'm long-haul Paul. All the music on the show is by an cost myself featuring performances by travis. The snake man Womack Terry to SOx Richardson the late. Great Roger Clark Jan Gullit Jim Whitehead and Andrew Marshall Additional Engineering by Donna Golic and Muscle Shoals Alabama special thanks to these drivers in vendors. Whose voices you heard throughout Jd. Howard of the Ohio. Great Lakes Regions atlanta-based Small Fleet owner operator. Eric Turner Daniel and Philip's snow of the goose freightliner classic Chad Baba from Kentucky Horse Country Robert Poem Reader Truckers Final Mile Dot Org Christopher Brunette Burnett farm toys and Debbie Dingle Dessert they also heard from Devry Jones. Jason Really Wind James Range. Bobby Davis fellow singing truckers. Brad James Taylor bar and that Jake break chunky himself. Terrence Mathis over. The road is made possible by support from the folks. I've worked for for a really long time. Muller trucking now celebrating over thirty years of safe and reliable transportation and for the food industry for more information check out molar tracking dot com over. The road is a collaboration between overdrive night as N. P. R. X. Radio Tokyo a collection of the best independent podcasts around. I've turned a lot of overnight. Reefer loads listening to shows like the Memory Palace and criminal. Seriously find out more about the whole network at Radio Tovia Dot. Fm Look for overdrive magazine at overdrive online dot Com comed- todd's channel nineteen blog the overdrive radio podcast and explore more about trucking. You can find over the road online at over-the-road DOT FM sure to follow us on all those usual platforms to facebook twitter instagram over the road pod. You can see some of my videos on Youtube. By looking for long-haul Paul Music. Thanks for listening angering into the end of the run. We'll be back next week with a channel. One special then in two weeks with more stories over the road. Real News Wrong. Some they follow the ball. Some they would squandered by the sweat of the brow and wagon and Cycle watermelon can have is a friend. You can have as a friend friend friend friend. No no no go. Watermelon can have as a friend radio.

Matt overdrive magazine Papa John America Elaine Chao Mike Landes Knoxville Louisville facebook Peterbilt Paul Greg Murphy Eric Turner Daniel Tennessee editor Knoxville South Florida Deborah Jones
[Bonus] Rebel Eaters Club: Food is a Bridge with Francis Lam

Proof

35:24 min | 5 months ago

[Bonus] Rebel Eaters Club: Food is a Bridge with Francis Lam

"Hi prove listeners. If you enjoy podcasts. That focus on food and food stories. You should know about a show from transmitter. Media called rebel eaters club. It's a body positive and food positive. Show so there's no food snobbery here and it's a welcome change for those that wish to separate themselves from the ever present dia culture host virjee tovar is engaging and passionate as she talks with fellow rebel and they may just change the way that you think about food. Andrew body their second season just launched and features compelling conversations with guests like francis lamb from the splendid table. And it's packed with fascinating stories about why we eat what we eat. Listen now in your favorite podcast app or at rebel eaters. Club dot com. What are we going to do here. Together Well i think on the surface we're going to make some nissin cup noodles instant ramen putting the reality. But we're going to do is our souls are going to touch. This is my friend francis lamb. He's the host of the splendid table. Podcast and the editor. In chief at clarkson potter aka publisher of some of the most gorgeous cookbooks on the planet. He's won a bunch of james beard awards and has been a judge on top chef. I mean he's fancy when we met in the jungles of belise a few years ago. I had no idea how glamorous he was but it's not quite time for me to tell you that story yet for now. What you need to know is that. I'm in my kitchen and california. And he's in his kitchen in new york and we're both making cup of noodles. I have never shared a cross country cup noodles before. So i really feel like this is going to be special so okay so first step is what do we do i francis. Let's get our water hot. Okay oh my god listened to go. That's the sound okay. Now opening up. I just love. I mean like that moment when you peel open. The top and the insides are reveal. And they're so beautiful and dry and salt contained in. It's just so gorgeous and that little like three microns of drug cabbage. That makes you feel good. There was a vegetable inconvenience in the making of this noodle. It's going to be good for me. Well okay now going to cover it up again to let the steam like optimal steam. So this is where. When i was a kid and i guess right now to like. This is the longest three minutes in history and it was chests. Let's be hungry. You be so looking forward to that. Incredible salty msg laden broth and And i i really remember sitting here and just being like come on. Hurry up on her. While we wait for noodles to cook. I'll tell you. The story of how francis and i met we were on a guided tour in believes with a company called dandelions chocolate. We were there to meet the farmers and learn all about how cow is grown. It was like summer camp for chocolate nerves. I flew so low to the capital of believes and then the tiniest plan on earth took me to a place called punta gorda as we landed i could see water and the emerald green of treetops. It was sweltering. The jungle humidity immediately turns your pores into a series of tiny sprinklers. I met francis at the welcome dinner and it turned out he would also be my roommate along with about ten other people. I'd never met before. Francis really one. My heart on might three when he emerged from the shared bathroom into our massive communal sleeping area and said in a soothing. Voice listen guys. I found a scorpion in the bathroom. Then caught it under a cup. Just try not to tip it over so it doesn't escape good night but you better believe. That wasn't the only scary thing we experienced that night. Monkeys remember them. They were terrifying. It was like what is that it sounded like a dinosaur monster know for real. I was like oh. I thought we were going to believe not jurassic fucking park like it was like in the middle of the night and be like off forty eight hours later. I finally asked one of the people at the camp. What is that sound at night that we hear terrifies all of us. And they're like others the howler monkeys and then i think i glued. They're like six and a half inches tall looking like they're so tiny. And you're like how you sound like a t rex. How are you this. Tiny and q. It's amazing and i totally remember you telling stories lying on the couch. In like all your manifest glory reading these stories abou- hilariously awful lovers. Picking be friends with virgin. Are three minutes. are up time for nudes. This is how asian i am. I actually got chopsticks for this. Okay here we go now. This is the worst. This is the thing that like people like listeners of my show like call in about me like you people are discussing. Never wanna hear anything. Go into someone's mouth. I mean i love that sound. I mean when i i was like we're eating on this show and everyone's like now knows everyone hates that there's articles about this and i'm just like no the refusal to like be okay with people eating as white supremacy. I'm sorry it's just ricky's model. Which is how. I pronounce racism. Like your your european discomfort with your body. You will not put that shit on me. Oh that's good. I haven't thought about that. Like making that connection. But i'm i'm feeling a little bit. I mean at this point you can tell me like anything like the fact that like. I don't know that light. Bulbs burned too hot and they actually hurt you if you touch them when you thought they only produce light is white supremacy like i would believe that at this point but that's the thing is always true you know okay so my experience with the noodles. This snack is sort of complicated for me because it was the choice snack of the popular kids in middle school of which i was not a member. So i'm a little bit. I'll admit i'm remembering this ancient twelve year old fear like there was certain food and behaviors and language. The popular. kids got to do that. We're completely forbidden for me. You did it like you. Were a poser. Are you really trying. Yes or i mean literally to go back to ancient rome it was kind of like you know how the aristocracy against to eat certain things and if you are not the aristocracy it is up eighty and it's disrespectful to eat that same you know. It was so disrespectful of you to go get the cup noodle needle. It was a it was like it was like a code. Wherever you're not getting that cup noodle because you're a virgin who doesn't have a jeep. It took me a second the process. Because where i grew up. It was like a pretty white bread suburban new jersey and so the idea that like instant ramen. This was when i got home right and this was you know when i was still at the stage in my life where i was really embarrassed by my food because it spoke too much of our ethnic s. You know something. Like instant noodles which i love love love love. Love like always loved loved. Msg loved the weird texture You know love its association with my cousins who were from hong kong and so they would have all these cool flavors and brands of instant noodles have access to in new jersey so when i visit them or when they would come they bring something totally all these really powerful memories of being kids specifically right and just loving this food but it was totally the kind of thing where like i would eat it and i would be embarrassed if anyone from school would seem eating it. So where did your up in new jersey and like what like i mean. How did you end up in a white suburb. So my came in the seventies early seventies you know and i and i was raised in middle and upper middle class suburbs almost entirely surrounded by white people so that was obviously who the dominant culture like in my actual physical space was and obviously in in our larger culture to then again i also had this whole side of my life. That was about how much i love hong kong. Basically my parents are from there. And i had family. They're all growing up and so so much of my sort of escape from my suburban existence was about the fact that i would go to hong kong for two months at a time and spend time with my cousins and learn about living a city. I would learn about you. Know being in the pendens that you could actually go places and you learn to take public transit. And that was that was your passport to the world right. And that was the basis of my exploration for that of that world was basically either. We were going somewhere to eat. Like amazing want noodles or we're going somewhere it's like by video games or play video games like that's all we did so like super foundational part of my life. You know myself construction myself identity. Fifty percent of that was about running around the city of hong kong looking for yummy food. You know so it. It's so funny. Because i've told the story i think is accurate about why i like. Went into. food is a professional And all that stuff like a trillion times. And for whatever reason i've never actually thought of this part of it like it was about that exploration and feeling like oh i'm like my own person in the world and that was just connected to the activity of going out for food. I know exactly what france is talking about. Food felt like a passport to me. When i moved out of my parent's house. I remember being eighteen and finally getting to choose what i ate. I was so curious about anything. I didn't need it home or wasn't served at the mall. Anything unfamiliar one of my discoveries was wait for it. Balsamic vinegar i now. I wanted to be more glamorous too but the moment i tasted it was nothing short of thrilling. The sweet acidity brought me fully into my body in a way that felt good a loved that feeling and i wanted more of it at the time. I was still dieting. And that impacted. What i thought i could eat. But even that could stop my pursuit of that but feeling there was a lot of emotional instability at home and i was fat pariah at school that humble little teaspoon of vinegar meant that there was something entirely outside the orbit of the life i'd known for eighteen years. It gave me hope. I didn't know it at the time but for me. This curiosity about food was connected to the relationship. I wanted to have with the world growing up in the suburbs with emigrants who had seen a lot of war poverty and instability. I understood why immigrant families saw the whole world as one big looming threat. But just like the little mermaid. I wanted to be where the people are. I wanted to be part of that world. And i knew that food was a bridge after the break. Francis will tell me about how food was away to explore and to connect to who he was and who he wanted to be. I found this picture of you online. Where you're a little boy and you're with your family gathered around this huge plate of dumplings and everyone is looking at the camera but you are not. You are a lovingly gazing at the dumplings. And i'm i'm kinda curious. I want you to tell me about little frances and like his relationship to food. Oh boy i mean. I don't know maybe maybe the way you described that kinda says it so in in our culture everything is done around food like we always. We only saw people to eat meals with them Even in our own home in our own family really the only time we got together as parents and children was not the table to eat. We almost never spent time together. You outside of the table. So here's the story that i realize many many many years later that it really like spoke so much to like who i think i am now. So it was one of our family trips to hong kong And we were in a restaurant with me. You know you. Don't go to a restaurant with four people you go to restaurant with twenty and you take. Two giant tables are three week. That's how he went out to dinner. it was. You know two generations of our family kind of thing and we went to this restaurant that i remember thinking owes like sort of a more special one and i insisted on sitting with the grownups. Exactly how old remember. But definitely under ten and the steam fish came out the whole scheme fish which is almost always like the prized the centerpiece of like a big southern chinese meal or banquet. Or whatever and i grabbed my chopsticks like some intuitive spear fisher. I went right for the fishes head and grabbed the chic out of the fish which was so appalling. Because if you were like in the no you know that sheikh is the best bite of the fish and obviously they're only two of them in a highly patriarchal highly like elder focused. Society is no question. My grandfather is supposed to get the bite of cheek the fish and so the whole table like my parents were like. Oh my god. What animal or are we raising. I'm sorry you know like like truly. They felt like humiliated and my grandfather. In all his i can never pronounce his word by magnanamity. Whatever the fuck that where it is in the generosity just a little and said this one really knows how to eat and like. I actually do remember after that happened. Remember back home or whatever when you new versions dinners at home with our cousins and aunts and uncles and whatever and oh wow 'cause an opera got straight as again for the nineteen th straight term. You know whatever all my brilliant. Oh oh master. The piano grade nine years old amazing good for you like my parents never had anything to brag about. But i totally remember them saying at one point more francis really knows how to eat it was as if it was the equivalent like francis really francis a real poet young and so i just felt like that was that was worth something to my parents. But that doesn't make sense to like saying the predominantly white suburban culture. That i grew up in right so like this thing that i can hold pride in my family and in our little in our community. Wasn't that translated the community. I grew up in on the edge of the san francisco. Bay area was different from francis where he grew up in predominantly suburban white community. My neighborhood was full of families from mexico. Nikolaou why yemen. India china and the philippines as a kid. I was hit to the fact before. I could become someone's friend. I had to be invited to dinner. I my reaction to the meal would determine whether i was a good fran or a bad one. In the eyes of their parents eating was part of the initiation and adding process. My family did the same thing we had to gauge. Whether you were down with our weird food could you hang with us in our menu. Though did you ask for seconds. On the dim-sum the rule was simple. Eat while be liked. Food was a stand in for the people who made it and the cultures and traditions. They came from that made sense to me because in my home to love our food was to love us to hate. Our food was to spend the rest of your enchilada hating life in exile but there was a vulnerability in all of it too because all of us wanted our whole cells tripe and all to be loved and accepted in a land that was unfamiliar. Francis shared this story about that vulnerability. I was a kid and i was at my parents workplace and like my dad takes me out to lunch. There's new restaurant the you know that he likes and we have a taiwanese pork chops with pickles and rice and it was actually in particular sweet moment with my father. 'cause we rarely went out just the two of us and like i just have a really lovely memory of that moment like even at the time i remember thinking was really sweet and special and later that afternoon. I'm back in their back in their shop. And this guy comes in well dressed in white and wearing a suit and had an english accent. Because of course like every villain is gonna he's every villain And he comes in. Just as i was like you know reheating the leftovers from lunch the snack and they happily showering down on them and he comes in. He's like asking me for my my parents go. I don't know where they are. And then he like sniffs the air i swear got his the air and then says what on earth is that awful smell and i looked at my food and i throw it away in front of them and i pretended like you're you're right. It's disgusting any real. Feel sad at the time. I just felt like cleanse myself. You know like get this stinky chinese-ness off of me right now. That story hit me in the gut. He's talking about the idea that to be an emigrant to be a person of color is to be dirty somehow and we spend our whole lives trying to clean ourselves up. I know that feeling so well. And i know that just because i'm aware that has caused by racism and xenophobia doesn't mean as any less painful this food chain drives us to try to fit in at any cost whether it's throwing away the leftovers of a meaningful meal or changing how we eat through participating in diet culture. Many people of color and emigrants are told that we can't change our race or immigration status. But we can change how we eat. We can change our bodies look like we can't admit that the food that brings us comfort is bad for us. I think about how for my family and me. Dieting wasn't just about watching what we ate. It was about trying to be real americans. It was about showing others that we were willing to sacrifice something we loved in order to be accepted instead of being angry about these injustices. The things that made us different became a source of shame. I'm sort of curious about Were there moments when your feelings about or your relationship to food changed or wait for the better or for for the words like i think like an maybe embedded in this question or it might be his own question is there comes a moment. I think in everyone in our cultures who grows up our culture. A when there's an association between food and body All of a sudden you know you're aware like okay. What i'm eating is according to this culture affecting when i look like and that has implications. I'm just sort of curious. That moment was like for you deaf. Sure i don't know if i ever changed my fishing and feeling about food in a but self as much as it was an opportunity for me to blame myself when my body wasn't looking a certain way but yeah but you know going back to like oh not being on the popular kids like for us like ninety percent of what defines you as a popular kid. Where and when i grow up was like athleticism right where you a jock were you in the sports and i was never fleck never coordinated the video games and eating. Fucking bugles like. I was a pretty skinny kid. And then i came like a fair amount of weight in my middle school years. I remember thinking that i was fat. I remember thinking that i was pudgy. Remember like looking at stretch marks. I have two brothers both younger so as always around my middle brother in those years and he was always just much bigger person just to get much heavier person. And so growing up in highly fat-phobic society. It was like the thing only gone before. Like if you're not the very bottom rung but you're on the second rung. The mike the person wants to help other people up. Or you're the person find solace in the fact that you can see someone you know below you and i hate to say. I think there was a part of me that felt that way. You know not not like i would be cruel to him about his weight or anything but just like. I'm not like that. But meanwhile like i would go take a bath or take a shower and like you know. Look at my own stretch marks and you know look at my little boy boobs and is a really direct relationship between that and like my awareness popularity because it seems so clear that you're popular was defined by your body and i don't i don't know that i was tortured by a it. Didn't take up extreme amounts of time and emotional energy but it was constant and it was there was a low hop of you know Being self conscious about my body. Want to I i wanna pivot into talking about gender. obviously genders of massive part of a person's relationship to food. I'm like i grew up being socialized that eating as little as possible was a sign of the successful performance of like being a woman or being a girl antonin absolutely nothing was the ultimate goal that dot is one of the intersections of like how food and gender plays out in my life of and i'm sort of curious how your relationship food intersex gender. I'm just curious what you think about this. The performance of gender and the understanding of gender is complicated by asianise right because asian. Males are feminist. Famously there are so many chinese restaurants and chinese laundries in the early days of chinese immigration. Because that was women's work and that were those are industries that white men were not threatened by were finally chinese people opening that stuff. Okay i like to take you back to california eighteen forty eight. It was the gold rush young people. Most of the men came from all over the world to find their fortunes panning for gold or setting up supplies and services for those who did some of the men who came from china open restaurants to feed fellow chinese immigrants with cheap nourishing food that provided a little familiarity in a place. That was so far from home at the time. Most employed emigrants worked in laundries. That changed after the chinese exclusion act became federal law in eighteen. Eighty two. It was designed in part to give white workers an unfair advantage by banning the immigration of chinese laborers for ten years but the chinese exclusion act also introduce a new visa system where certain business owners could obtain a visa. That would make it possible to move to the united states and sponsor relatives one of the types of businesses covered by this visa restaurants. Obviously there was a catch. Actually there were several. I wanna tell you about two of them first. Each chinese applicant needed to white character. Witnesses to vouch for them. According to my research the same six white dude's apparently did all vouching catch number two. You had to apply with a high grade aka fancy restaurant. So these savvy. Immigrants began opening ornate restaurants. That could seat several hundred people. They were called chop suey palaces. They would pool their money for the startup capital and eventually bring their relatives over and get them jobs and the restaurant in new york between nineteen ten in one thousand nine hundred twenty. The number of chinese restaurants quadrupled by nineteen eighty chinese had become so popular easy to find an affordable that they changed. How americans eight one is story and yang. Chen argues that chinese restaurants provided a small luxury. Most people could afford and that this helps make dining out accessible for more people than ever. I love thinking of how restaurants became palaces and palaces became bridges between countries cultures and most importantly families. The kind of cooking. I do now is a home cook for my family. He has which obviously in a lot of ways is quote unquote. Women's work right. It's that old idea of women's work. But it's something that i cherish. I think of very very very innately connected to my identity as a father. I was actually literally got. My next question was going to be You've written there's no greater joy than watching your daughter eat. i mean. I don't have children and so i'm so curious about what is that feeling. I mean is it. Is it like that sense. Sort of she is walking in the footsteps of like little francis and the fish cheek or is it like something else. I don't think of it that way. I always have just seen her as her own person. But you know she's small. There is a feeling of providing and there is a feeling of protecting and there is a feeling of you know making sure she stays alive. When i see her eat i feel like she is keeping yourself alive and it is just inexperience of pure joy. So a lot of people ask me. How do i make sure that my child doesn't you know have a disordered relationship to food because we live in a culture that teaches people how to have a disordered relationship. And i'm so curious if you have thoughts on this boy. I don't have a answers for sure. There was one way in which i felt like i had to catch myself and police myself. Which was when she was born. She was like winter. Like fiftieth percentile. Away and then. She lost a lot of weight really quickly which apparently is not uncommon. Pushing never really gained a back. And so she went from fiftieth percentile. Like twenty fifth percentile lenient. Obviously but she was an infant. And you know first time parents. New parents were omega reading. It would okay. Are we doing wrong. We're not feeding her ray. But one doctor's office of course like no. It's fine it's fine. It's fine it's fine. It's fine but i couldn't shake it for a while. And when she was eating solid food. You know i would. You encourage her to finish a food. Oh you didn't really eat anything you you took to buy. It's just not not trusting her trust in her body. Where i find myself policing myself now is like maybe i'll suggest paid. You wanna finish your broccoli and not pressure. And if i do it i suggest once maybe that's okay but not suggests it again because then it starts to feel like this is what daddy wants. Mommy wants Just helping her. You know just helping her find her own confidence in what she's doing around food and i'm also trying to be careful not like freezing her because i think that's the same thing just like the manifestation of the same dynamic Some trying not to be like. Wow you did such a great job eating really well like totally 'cause i don't know how to draw that line either because i want her to feel valid one hundred feel approval completely neutral affect. It's just like truly like your body tells you your body tells you i don't know if that's good either but i don't know how to balance that and like i'm just trying not to introduce the idea of stress with food. Don't know how to do that but am let's hope for. That's so beautiful. france. Says i mean just like hearing you talk about how Like trusting her trust in her body and watching her keep herself alive. Like i just. I mean it just so beautiful to kind of hear that i love it freelancers omega thank you. So much for being on rebel eaters club. Thanks for having me in the club. Now do i get a card. We're getting to the point. Holy shit it was just so good talking with you and hearing your voice and such a genius and you're so i dunno wonderful human being and i'm so glad you wanted to be on. The show was so fun. I felt like you'd like to know that after this interview i said francis some hot sauce made by a company named howler. Monkey hope he puts it on something delicious after we talked. I thought about bridges and the people who sacrificed so much to build them through food. I thought about what it may have felt like almost two hundred years ago to come to a new country to make the food you associated with home in a place where you weren't welcome. I thought about francis parents. Even though i've never met them i thought about my grandparents and then i thought about the two of us. We're one part of a centuries old ripple. I mean we met because we both love chocolate and want to learn more about it. It boggles my mind. How chocolate can help to people become friends. it gets down to one thing. Food is connection. Don't forget to head to rebel. Ears club dot com for this week's journal. Prompt we also have brand new badges for this season and advice on starting your own rebel ears club. Courtesy of the babe of the wesleyan university rebel eaters club. Rebel eaters club is produced by transmitter. Media are lead producer jordan. Bailey loves vermicelli. Lacy roberts is our managing producer. And she can't live without soba noodles. Sarah knicks at. It's the show and prefers ichi bon instant noodles and our executive producer. Greg calling loves those a wide rice noodles common pad to you. I'm your host. Burji tovar. And i gotta agree with greta. I love a chubby noodle. Ben shaneco is our mix engineer special kudos to james t green and just glazer for the production assist and do talk. Yes takayasu allah. Who wrote the music. Use the show. If you love rebel eaters club tell your friends and share the love writing a review on your favorite podcast app. See you next week.

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A Brief History of Trucking in America

Over the Road

50:45 min | 1 year ago

A Brief History of Trucking in America

"Hi My name is Reuben. Karen owner operator from Qasimi Florida. Quick no before we start. There is a later strong language and this one so far on the show. We've talked a lot about the culture of the trucking industry. It's the freedom of it. You gotta live it. Love it breathe. It lead it. We've heard about the importance of Freedom Freedom Freedom Freedom an autonomy. Ramon Ball your own boss about the pride and getting a job done right. Do what you gotTa do to get the job done on your own terms. This is not insurmountable sometimes. In spite of the rules chartered miles. Turn and burn and often in spite of the personal cost scares me a little bit honestly though some truckers even like to see that we are like the last American cowboys not dealing with people. Living by our own code. A loner apart from the rest of society. Do my own thing my my own rules but where did this culture of independence come from him? Okay this is I love the subject. We have to go back to food so today on the show talking history and also food some help from author and trucker Fin Murphy. Let's just dial it to about nineteen thirty three. That's where it all starts about food. Vince going to help us get to the bottom of this whole mythology of trucker says the last American cowboys take us on a journey that touches on everything from Mount Pre Bogart to the Lord of the rings from Ronald Reagan. To Franklin Roosevelt Roosevelt's basic problem was how am I going to boost farm incomes and provide cheap food at the same time? And that's the birth date of the American trucking myth culture and everything else that comes from This is over the road from Pierre. Xs Radio Topiary overdrive magazine long-haul When you're an over the road trucker part of your job is to Cavort with your brethren over coffee addressing the international geopolitical situation. Maybe the breakdown of the modern family all wow hurling invective at your fellow drivers who don't come from the same part of the country as you do. It's pretty much what we do. So you can think of this episode is just that a good old fashioned truckers only counter discussion between fen. While I sell way Fan and my colleague here at over the road the ball haulers daughter herself. I know it's over the top lacey. Robert this is the type of brisk repartee used to here at places like the TV room of the New England truck stop and Sturbridge Mass truckdriver. I've never veritable rotating think-tank in its day. Kenley North Carolina. Where some drawing? Denison the big boys truckstop with expound at length on all y'all Yankees Ruin Nash car so consider yourself warned. Things are about to get pretty heavy in here Okay I admit it. I discovered Finn's book the long haul while googling myself long haul let's face it. Nobody gets to own that phrase but still who was other long-haul guy two paragraphs in and I was hooked. Man could that guy right as I read the book I realized just how much Vin and I have in common well. It started when I was about seventeen and I worked at a gas station like me. He was a gas jockey and next door to the gas station whereas Callahan brothers moving and storage. Who looked up to the truckers? I was sort of an all of these guys because I see the sweat sort of caked on their tee shirts but like me then decided to go to college so that was my summer job was a local mover and Callahan. Brothers like me. He got three years in and then the summer of my junior year. I ran into this long haul. Driver Name Will Joyce and I took a road trip with him down to Virginia and like me. He dropped out. I was just bewitched by the whole life by seeing the country by the work and buy the money. I decided that I would get my tractor trailer license and do exactly what my friend will was doing. But this is where my story and Finns diverge. You see Finn took the high road in a sense following Willie. Joyce into that most artisanal form of trucking. That of the high end household mover. He's the guy you call when you need to move in eighty thousand dollar collection of Chinese artifacts into your new vacation home in Aspen very few truckers out there in to offend us. You have to be strong but also smart and able to mix with the well heeled clientele me. I suppose I wound up on a lower road. Polling reefers loads of lettuce pork loins watermelons food. That is my loads. Took me to the dirty side of towns to the old warehouses to the produce and the meat markets. I was awake when everyone was asleep with a lucky strike in my hand seeing what the old peak could really do in western Kansas. And all of it coming back to food out there with the cow trucks chicken haulers to hopper Baden's laden with grain rolling through the nameless fields of the great alone it all starts about food then was starting to explain it the Tom so let's hear him out in the late. Nineteen teens. The food cost for an American household was a significant portion of their annual income. I've seen numbers all over the place but forty to fifty percent maybe sometimes even higher so food costs are rising. And you have this nascent. Trucking Industry and it made it easier for small farmers to get their goods to market tremendous crowds which you see gathered outside the Stock Exchange. So let's just dial it to about one thousand nine thirty three. Fdr is elected president and remember now so we got a very depressed farm economy catastrophically depressed now that they join the army and so you had more trucking and truck capacity than the economy needed at that time. Nineteen thirty three thirty four thirty five. So the trucking companies were all cutting each other's throats underbidding freight rates. So we've got this three headed monster. We have high food prices. We have a trucking companies going out of business and then we have this farm catastrophe all happening the same team. Every dollar of our National Life Roosevelt Administration came up with a plan. They regulated the interstate trucking industry and the day the Motor Carrier Act of nineteen thirty five. Which is you know all of this sounds kind of mundane when you you know if you've ever talked to any trucker he almost everybody's GonNa know what the motor carrier act of. Nineteen thirty five is even if they if they have trouble. Reading are never finished high school. We know about the motor carrier act of nineteen thirty five. What it did is it. Regulated all aspects of interstate trucking. It set the freight rates for every single commodity. It was a federal offence to charge less than that and then it exempted agricultural products because the only place to square that Gordian Knot of higher farm incomes with cheaper food is to lower the transportation costs so they left farm products out of the motor carrier. Act that means starting after nineteen thirty five. If you steal say there was a minimum rate that you had to charge if you hauled cabbage. You negotiated your own rate directly with the shipper. I have a quick question Can you just sort of paint? A picture of what a driver's life was like before and after nineteen thirty five. Well there's a great movie. It's called they drive by night starring none other Humphrey Bogart. We got cut into which and it's about two independent truck drivers in the Nineteen Thirties. About what their life was like. I'm glad to finance it. Do you think you're kidding. You couldn't even pay for the head like anything out and what their life is like then as independent truck drivers is Humphrey Bogart is. He's sleeping under his truck on some country road because the truck breaks down. He's paying too much money to get repairs. He's not getting paid. The rate he thought he was going to get paid by the Commodity Guy who he contracted with governing. GonNa pay us now. And he's working too hard for too few dollars and then it turned into a good job after nineteen thirty. Five is what you're saying. It turned into a great job. At least it turned into a great job for some truck. I and it all started with those fixed freight rates so what happened after. Nineteen thirty five. Is that the trucking companies who had goods that were subject to the motor carrier. Act they will go to Washington every year or every two years whenever whatever it was and then they would lobby for higher freight rates and then the workers who are driving. These trucks realized that these companies were making lots of lots of money shall toes truckers started to organize our distinguished guest. This evening is day affect general president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters Union AF by nineteen? Forty teamsters were the nation's largest union with nearly half a million members artist and most powerful union in the United States nineteen fifty. They could claim more than a million members. Mr Beg Your Union. Controls everything from the delivery of divers to the driving a hearse. So what happened was the teamsters and the trucking companies together with going to Washington to set the fragrance. I certainly do work very closely with the best people that employ our membership so Labor's getting taken care of 'cause teamsters doing pretty good contracts for their people and I am interested in every industry employing our people. The trucking companies are getting the profit margins. They want because the rates are fixed so from nineteen thirty five to about one thousand nine hundred eighty all of the people regulated under the motor carrier. Act were reasonably happy. Well very definitely pull out. Thank you very much day. Beg for being with US tonight. And then left the drivers the truck drivers hauling agricultural goods who had none of that safety net at all. Why in the world would you hall agricultural products after Nineteen Thirty Five Watt? Who was doing that? And why and how people that don't WanNa Punch a time. Clock is a lot of people that don't want to be told what to do on a day to day basis and they're not going to become a teamster because they would view that as giving up a certain amount of personal American autonomy and those were the people that became the agricultural freight haulers called wildcatters called independence as a lot of different names for them but those people they would buy their own truck and then they would find their own loads a lot of times. Just driving up to farms. But a lot of time driving up to wholesalers things like that. Picking up a load of watermelons or you know what have you negotiated rate with that shipper? Deliver the item and then get paid for that and then do it again and do it again. But there was a higher level of independence for sure for many truckers. This wasn't some cultural choice. Between becoming a teamster and becoming an independent or wildcatter often. It just came down to where you were from. If you grow up in the rural south or Midwest where. There wasn't much to ship besides beans corn and cows. No one around there was going to give you a union card but before we go any deeper into the history. I'M GONNA pause for a more personal take on all this from one of my heroes. I'm getting too old. Forget I ninety three. You know someone who actually live to life jail house floor for a bed guild to well. I don't wildcat every day. Retired Indiana trucker and unfiltered world. War Two veteran the Belden Tornberg back name day. You didn't have term set. Growing long ago they all turned second. Where you had with your arms signal and you just place your lights. But it didn't have no we'll break. They didn't have no shopping. Forber selden was an independent trucker. This exact period we're talking about. I got fired streak. I'm from dish. Factor crag punch a time clock. I've always hated a union. Join the teamsters who over time got the reputation of being corrupt. You knew what you WANNA do. You got to do what they want to do. He take loads and other truckers. Wouldn't take I all. I LOAD UP BILL JACOB BLADDER. Ten roads or other truckers wouldn't go a lot of people died there 'cause it was so steep and he had no interest in being regulated in any fashion down logbooks way. Aw stopped by Seldon's house when morning to cook him breakfast. Now where did you? Did you start driving when you were in? The service? Delvin tells us his story. Today averaged twenty one years old. I got out of the service and I started driving for Ellis trucking in I drove there for. I don't know you're too. Then I start wildcat and back in the nineteen fifties and sixties. Delton was one of those independent truckers. Vin talked about but he didn't just hall agricultural products. He was a true wildcatter meaning. He'd Hall Steel Paper Dry Goods. Anything he could get in the wagon and he'd given under the table discount to the freight rates set by the Interstate Commerce Commission. That's what wild koetting was lack NAM days earlier. Quite a few wildcatters and we didn't hall ain't saying Oh legal error Zhang was illegal but you can make good money I she. She had high ray challenge and you all for cheaper but if he got caught us in trouble truckee called Big Al Big Al. It was a power liner with seven. Marie under the name was a reference to its rare allis. Chalmers motor made fifty. The Motor itself was keen at all and Purple. Truckers called it. The purple people eater ended. Day Pass anything on the road even if you go world one time got arrested today that scale before you got the continental divide hit another driver got busted up there for being overweight in me and that guy had breakfast together. Eyler FIVE THOUSAND POUNDS HEAVIER. Then he was. Joey said I'm going to show you away up over that continental divide and I say you do ask so. I hung back behind lanes. Thank he would get ned jump on me know when I went past st my going about forty miles an hour faster. He would got up over the mountain. I had him outside. But here's what I respect the most about them and yes. He drove fast yes. He broke the rules but he did those things out of a profound sense of personal responsibility. I take a net to keep me awake except oranges. Yeh All I ever did you. I buy me a whole pack of big naval oranges down there in Florida and time. I'd get Sweet grass I'd have about two layup in fact. He prided himself on his safety. If you're wildcat and you have no in urge US careful. He was governed by an Interior Code. The amount of safety that you got is within yourself not deter up and I drove over them truck by million in two hundred thousand miles and never did have a chargeable accident precision. It was all distilled down to taking care of the load doing what you said. You do. Look a man in the eye. Giving him your word you'd be there. Some others like to work logbooks skill masters speed limits were impediments obstacles. That had to be circumvented. I would still ally in your work. I wanted you to hear all that so you can understand where the culture around independent irking comes from guys like Feldman who flat love to work hard and do things their own way and in part because of the motor carrier act of nineteen thirty five. That culture comes from rural America. Because that's where there was food to be hauled things were different around the cities along the coasts where teamsters were host dominant but all that was about to change. We restored competition to the marketplace. And I take some satisfaction that this deregulation legislation after the break. We pick up our conversation with Finn Murphy. And we'll hear how the whole regulatory system Delton grew up in was turned. Let's head bet. Each generation of Americans has a rendezvous. Were they different reality? And in a sense we all became wildcatters So thin told us about the motor carrier act of nineteen thirty five and how it basically split trucking into parallel industries agricultural and non-agricultural. That all changed in nineteen eighty. But before we get to that. Let's take a little road trip through time. In this century America has become a nation on week after World War tune. Trucking quickly overtook rail as dominant mode of freight transport. The food we eat the clothes we wear the things we do but when we depend on wheels we depend also on highway in nineteen fifty six. The Eisenhower Administration started work on the interstate system responded with the Federal Lane Highway Act of Nineteen fifty-six providing the staggering with the interstate across country trip. That used to take weeks could be running on Mir days. It'll be able to drive from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean and from Canada to Mexico without a single stop light or stop sign and the Turks changing to govern and a half cousin customer deal. They had power steering error seats. Essentially the job became a lot easier. And a lot more comfortable. They can pull a forty foot trailer. Loaded with seventy six thousand pounds of cargo. Eight hundred fifty miles without refueling. By the time the nineteen seventies in full swing. There were more than four million heavy trucks working in America. Breaker one nine necessarily copy on me. Big Fan come on. They were all over popular culture to the burden. Like we got us. A convoy. Truckers often portrayed as cowboys and outlaws with a truckload of bootleg beer. This has banned at one. And that is part of this same methology. We've been talking to defend Murphy. We only time clock. They've got the country at one of their head because out in the roads. They're on their own reality. Though was at most truckers didn't fit the cowboy description for most trucking was simply a decent middle-class job with solid benefits with pensions. In in certain ways it was the golden age of truck driving and for trucking companies but the whole industry and culture. Trucking took a big turn leading up to the nineteen eighties. The Rub of course and this is how the deregulation Juggernaut got going is that consumer prices just kept rising because transportation costs just kept rising. And there's a big groundswell to lower consumer prices and the best way to do that. According to some people in the government was getting rid of the supports that we've already talked about a strange coalition came together to push for deregulation of the trucking industry. It included some independent truckers. Who were hoping for more freedom. In what freight they could legally hall but it also included some of the regulators themselves consumer APP manufacturers of all shapes and sizes and of course the retailers bought stuff from them together. They took their concerns to legislators in Washington to say essentially the Roosevelt administration is still running the trucking industry and we need to bring competition into trucking and they did while others talk to free. Enterprise was the Democratic Party that acted and we ended excessive regulation and the airline and trucking industry. And that's when the motor carrier act of nineteen eighty came in and great rates. Were gotten rid completely together. We have cut the growth of new federal regulations nearly in half and the end dinner pendant truckers who favoured deregulation dot what they wanted to so now anybody in America could haul any item for any price that they can negotiate with the person paying ship. So let's let's dial back to Nineteen. Eighty deregulation has occurred. And can you talk about how the entire trucking industry changed in one thousand nine hundred? Yeah so overnight. We went right back to nineteen thirty four. Before nineteen eighty while trucking rates were being regulated and updated every couple years there was no incentive to thin out management ranks there was no incentive to save fuel it was no incentive not to buy new trucks every couple years there was no incentive not to do whatever the teamsters wanted you to do and that just doesn't go for. Moore's that's goes for everything that was being transported in the United States and then the day after deregulation. I'm still charging hundred and seventy five dollars an hour for two men and a truck and then the mover next door. Says I'M GONNA charge you one hundred and fifty dollars an hour and then the move next door to him. Says I'M GONNA charge you one hundred and thirty dollars an hour in the movie next door. Says I'M GONNA charge you one hundred dollars an hour. So the freight rates basically were cut in half overnight and the big big freight companies that were stuck with a lot of management and these teamster contracts. We're going bankrupt The American labor movement as a whole is struggling. Just find the whole time. There's no down. Union companies took a beating after nineteen eighty. Hit A low point. There's no Russian about. That's one reason. Union membership has been dropping to less than nineteen percent of the workforce last year the palm bad independent truckers and startup companies could now get official authority to haul stuff like steel and paper. Frantic guys like seldom used to only haul under the table. Mr Garrison foresaw the opportunity that would come from deregulation in the trucking industry and decided to get back in the business. This change spawned a whole new class of entrepreneurs. Okay get in the game and compete with the big journey. They began American freightways which has grown today to a million dollars. Remember will choice. Vince friend. Who got him into tracking in the first place? Well he was one of those entrepreneurs in nineteen eighty one. Joy started his own company. Joyce van lines with just two trucks and quickly could into a nationwide operation. People like will joyce who came after nineteen eighty who were not saddled with union employees. Those are the guys that one my Johnson reports. This is a trend. That union leaders are battling the days of the automatic raise every time a contract from the over. The government says money of everyday drivers ditches fine after deregulation but the broad picture mirrors the rest of the working world. We all seem to be working more and more for less. And lastly pay cuts averaging about ten percents getting is about the membership. The forgotten eighteen eighty five the inflation rate. Here's the hard truth of truckers average. Take home paying one thousand. Nine hundred eighty was just shy of forty grand a year. That kind of money would be worth more than one hundred ten thousand dollars today. You can find trucker's you pull six figures these days but they're not exactly the rule. The average take home. Pay Is Nowhere. Even close between fifty or sixty thousand per company drivers and up closer to seventy thousand for owner operators show Okay but I do want to get back to culture here. What happens to the culture of trucking after nineteen eighty? Well that's a lot. That's a great question because The Union drivers that I knew on the East Coast back in the seventies and stuff had a different way of conducting themselves and comporting themselves and dressing themselves. I'm a professional. I'm a middle class. Guy. I'm not one of those guys meeting the independent wildcatter down at the truck. Stop and he's the guy hauling the agricultural goods who's got the rural routes is either from the Midwest or the south. He doesn't want to work in a factory. It does want to punch a clock for the. Teamsters wants to kind of run his own business. He's the one who sees himself as a latter-day American cowboy and he's the one who's wearing a cowboy hat and the cowboy boots and the big belt buckle and the plaid shirt and talking real loud to the waitress in the coffee counter. That's great that's fine but what happened after deregulation was those professional guys. The Union guys. The hourly guys. They didn't have anything left because what they used to do. To put their chest out was on a teamster and I'm middle-class when those two things disappeared. They're just another sharecropper on the road like everybody else getting paid by the mile so as the union and professional middle class men began to disappear. The other truck drivers that are working for other companies. They adopt the cowboy myth. Ooh because now they're living in the same penury and misery that the independence were. I totally get it to a certain extent. I agree with it. I have to be something and something that can make me feel good and so therefore I'm going to be the last American cowboy. Can I just poke at this a little bit more because I think that you've you've explained it very well? But this is this myth of the cowboys. Something that impove talking about a lot and I still don't get it like I just don't understand why the drive to being independent is enough to make you live in poverty. Like that in the way that you describe. Okay well I think a lot of these drivers member now coming from the Rural Midwest and the rural south and the rural West. These people have already seen what government intervention has done in the farm business in the railroad business. There's an anti-statist Anti Union bias built in to these folks. That goes way before any sort of cultural wars. This goes back to what they consider to be. The pioneer guys in the CONISTON wagons making their own way in the world. This is who I am. I WANNA speak to to your point a little bit because I am Moreau Midwesterner. Who in so many ways? does embody nearly everything you say there is something about the circumvention of the law that becomes a drug and then all of a sudden you know a guy says well. I just went down to Florida with one hundred. Seven thousand pounds dodds scales all the way made thirty five hundred dollars clear like well if you can do. I can do. And that that becomes a thing. It becomes a pure dependent thing and it does become its own culture. If if you were to do a you know a roster of handles from truck drivers you know the the three most popular names are GonNa be Outlaw Lone Ranger and bandit and that just underscores what Paul was saying. Is You know we're giving the middle finger to the rest of society where we're living in our own society here as you can probably tell. Finn does kind of look down on the whole cowboy trucker culture. I mean you don't show up to move the CEO of a fortune. Five hundred company all dressed up like Yosemite. Sam that just won't fly but the funny thing is even as he eloquently. Deconstructs the myth. I know he's never completely divorced from it. So here's what I do in our interview. I fin one of my favorite passages from his book. The long haul way drives all the way down to key west only to discover that as load has been given to another carrier. And you get screwed off a low. And you call your dispatcher. Vieri a turns out that his dispatcher Gary has sent him on a five hundred mile. Wild Goose Chase naturally finished furious and this is what he says you say. I pity you. Gary you know what? I just figured out about truck drivers for all their pitiful myths most of them do this stupid job for one reason they can look themselves in the. I honestly say they've held to their own standards without caving in to pressure by society or somebody else's expect agents they might fuck up and they do but they own their fuck ups and keep to those standards regardless of the personal cost. I'm a truck driver to fuck you. Gary Keep your split level and Fort Wayne. Raise your kids to become cogs. The machines I live by different standard that I just figured out. All these cowboys. I've looked down upon their better than you for all their faults. I here we are. We're what now twenty thirty nine years after. Nineteen eighty and yet. This seems to be the thing that we all grapple with as living by our own codes. Our own standards. And can you speak to that? I'm not to tell you I just. The chills went down my spine. Because I mean it's just that is it's sort of a declaration of an anthem which I hold and and you're right I'm completely ambivalent about the myth excoriate it on the one hand but then I'm also bound up with it too. It's like Ghalem in the ring. He no column hated the ring of power but he loved it too. And I'm trucking me is key is kind of the same way. I like you know Weirdos. I like people with opinions. I like people that have done something different with their lives and I like to hear about it. I like to talk to those people. I like to be around those kinds of people and you can still find those people in trucking. Because if you can't get anywhere else you can fit where you don't have to fit it all and that's as an independent driver so yeah it is a place for people that can't quite toe the line and in certain other ways and it's going to be a tragedy when it goes day after talking to thin. I've got a load of milk to haul I. She rides along now. We're unsure fear. Talk a little bit about the importance of coffee detractors. Were we're all this and search for the strongest off a possible we? We believe that there's no such thing as coffee. That's too strong. There's just people that are too week. We find ourselves in the Agricultural Mecca of West Central Ohio hauling by silos steeples cattle. Feel each. Yeah. Wow No kidding you make this strong do strong. Nope not too weak. Paul wasn't suggesting shame and saying it's too strong. That doesn't mean you're definitely shame and saying it's too strong. What are you talking about Bob? When Penn talks about those people who can't quite toe the line in Society? He's talking about guys like me. Those shiftless narrative wells. Who never quite fit in out here in this lonesome. Old Farm picking up dropping off an empty trailer. Trucking gave me a place in the world. It took my family out of grinding. Poverty came the best friends that I have on this earth and like Finn Senate in there it feels like it's all starting to disappear. Electronic logs digital freight apps the kind of stuff we've been talking about the last couple of episodes not to mention the onboard cameras and autonomous trucks. These things are changing the culture of trucking for better for worse so as we drive down the road. I tell you this story about one of those old friends of mine and the culture that we shared heaven was my old boss. He overheard me playing my guitar terminal an astronaut Song. That was. I said it's one I wrote said. Well what are you doing with that? Messed Up Guitar. As I had accidentally sat on this guitar that my daughter gave me a through. The sleeper is tired one night. I sat on an Brogan held together by duct tape off. Baling wire doing that mess. I've been far in this one. I got married two weeks later. Kevin gave me this beautiful black epithelium guitar and all he asked said I play a few songs for the boys in the Warehouse Kevin was an old produce Holler and he and I understood each other. The bond thieves and bandits when we did they say to need diesels is down so we came hills. Anne how just to work and broken line. She taking a truck with a pig. Bomb chemical comes superbe chilly. It was just a mobile around in shock Bernie Sanders and Detroit's on us now and a now I knew there was a pound thieves and bandits between US golden age of look. Good old boy toy. Another thing about my buddy Kevin. He's from Kentucky and he has strong opinions about which truck stop has the Best Nandor Putin on I seventy five. No matter how much you weigh no matter how full you was you had to get the player manner. Put to go so in our next episode. We're going to settle that age old question once and for all and believe it or not. We drove from Dayton Ohio to the forty nine manner put. That's good putting you can beat it. We're taking a tour of my favorite Kentucky truck stops or we're also meet my favorite singing waitress. Busy make that twelve hours. Go by real quick. Catch you next time over the road. just takes on to mini straight shots to Miami to few Masson. Mallon hand to carry me back home. Shelvin broken bonds left scars upon hand. Now it's all nineteen. A little hobbled went along. They don't come back on my time. Just trying to stay out of the way the record clean and they tell me there and compliance more like to own a beat. I still dream about those days. Used to be Queensland spare room or on that on on the cool backs out of banning triple regionalized car in Over the road pit crew includes producer and sound designer Ian Costs and contributing producer. Lacy Roberts a transmitter media are editor from overdrive magazine. As taunt dill's our digital producer is Aaron Wade. Our project manager is Audrey Markevic and our executive producer for radio. Tovia Julie Shapiro. I'm long-haul Paul. All the music on the show is by Ian Carlson myself performances by Travis. The steak men. Wa- MC Terry to Suck Richardson Tissue. Mingo Jim Whitehead. Jan Grant Gullit the link. Great Roger Clark and Mr Andrew Marshall Special. Thanks this week to my fellow writing trucker Fin Murphy. The full title of his book is the long haul truckers tales of life on the road. Three times listen to it about five times. The voices you heard at the top of the show belong to Debbie Jones. Mike Landis can yet god High Bell Mississippi Tim Jared setlow Jason Early Line and a trucker in Dallas introduced himself only as rattlesnake for further reading on the subject of trucking history. Checkout Shane Hamilton's trucking country the road to America's Walmart economy fine. Todd's distillation of owner operator history written on the occasion of Overdrive Fiftieth Anniversary in twenty eleven. Be overdrive online dot com slash. Breaking free over. The road is made possible by support from folks. I have fought for for a really long time. Muller trucking CELEBRATING OVER THIRTY YEARS OF SAFE and reliable transportation for the food industry for more information check out muller trucking dot com over. The road is a collaboration between overdrive magazine. Npr XS Radio Tovia a collection of the best. Independent podcasts around. I just listened to the kitchen sisters on PR remix this morning. While I was detailing my truck the episode was entitled. No tongue can tell and it just gutted me. I mean it reduced me to tears on the back forty of an Ohio truck terminal. I don't even think there's a word for the medium. The kitchen sisters pioneered on this network. I call it sonic literature. Seriously if you're entered this quirky off the law stuff find out more about the whole network at Radio Tovia Dot. Fm Look for overdrive magazine at overdrive online dot COM. We can read. Todd's Channel Nineteen blog. You're the overdrive radio. Podcasts explored news. Business some lifestyle reporting about trucking. You can find over the road online at over the road dot. Fm BE SURE to follow us on all those usual platforms to facebook. Twitter and instagram had over the road. Bod did see some of my videos on Youtube. By looking for long-haul Paul Music. Thanks for listening hanging into the end of the round back next week. More stories from over the road So you raise James Dean. How did that go? Well Game Dean Hugh. He lived in paramount and he. He ordered a new in cheap knitting. Spent more money superman it up. Then what he paid for the Indian so then I went to Larry Small Harley and I diss had an old sixty one and so when I was over there they wanted to pick a race out of me authored. We'll it's all money you spend all day wasting. I wouldn't have a chance so they called me chicken shit. I said there's one thing I chicken shit so we got out there and I did feel hell. I'll be thanks for listening to over the road. Another radio TOPI show. You might like is everything is alive. Host Ian Chile is coming back with the third season on March eighteenth and yes. It has been a bit. But it's worth the wait great performers like Tammy Sager and Jason. Mansa guests will be bringing objects like a chainsaw leather pants in an Oxford shirt to life. Here take a listen. We'll one don't we. Have you introduce yourself for us? Well what's your name? My name is Ian. My name is Ian. I'm mirror I'm Louise sure I'm William and I'm a pants just pants you're not a pants. I'm pants and you are shirt sell. My Name's Josh. I am a chainsaw. I don't think I have any friends. I mean James shows up at a party. You know something has gone awry for you just saying your name is Ian. Because my name is Paul. I'm not sure what my name would be. Otherwise what if no one's standing in front of you and then I wouldn't be talking? Do you like being ironed. Do I like being people. Don't really get ironed yeah. People don't get ironed William. That's why people wrinkles never go away. You should try getting. I think you'd look great. Everything is alive is a show. Time magazine called. Laugh out loud funny. 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Is the Trump Economic Boom for Real?

The Argument

32:11 min | 2 years ago

Is the Trump Economic Boom for Real?

"I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week is the economy enjoying a Trump, boom. They're obviously not experiencing this moment as a moment of easy money. Then constitutional crisis. Are we headed for one? There. The ball is sort of in Congress's court and finally a recommendation, you do sort of crash land. The unemployment rate has fallen to its lowest level in fifty years. Wages are rising at a nice clip. So how much credit does the Trump administration deserve for all of this Michelle you should go first this week because you have a somewhat counter intuitive. You you think there's actually a connection between a piece of good news and a piece of Trump administration policy? What is it? Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's basically that just as kind of nobody but Trump could get away with you know, bending over backwards to appease North Korea. Trump has gotten the Republicans as other Republican presidents have as well to agree to tons of spending and huge deficits, right? I mean, our colleague Paul Krugman has a column titled Donald J canes, and the argument is basically that when Republicans are in power, they sort of jettison a steady in favor of Keynesian economics. Even though they purport not to believe in canes. And economics when Democrats are empower deficits don't matter anymore, and you know, kind of trumped up fears of inflation go by the wayside. And so there was an argument throughout the Obama administration. You know, first of all that we needed much bigger stimulus early on. And then that there remained a lot of slack in the economy. So that there was still a lot of room for stimulus without triggering too much inflation, and the Trump administration, I think has proven that theory was correct. They've just directed the money in a completely socially destructive way that increases in equality, but even kind of badly directed stimulus is stimulus. But I also want to say, you know, I feel like I have to be careful as somebody who hates Trump not to try to be intellectually dishonest and try to spin the economy. So I'm I'm aware of a tendency in myself to kind of look for economic bad news at the same time. I do have to say, I'm curious. What your impression is? And this is entirely subjective. But I don't know that many people who feel flush I've lived through other booms. I remember the boom of the nineties when people I knew were constantly being head hunted. Everybody seemed in my little world to have a lot of disposable income. You know, there was a lot of elaborate corporate parties and to some extent. There was very good time for kind of quote, unquote, content creators in the in the San Francisco Bay area, and obviously I know a lot of journalists. This is a bad time for our profession, but even another fields when I talked to people, you know, lawyers or people who are can take -nology. I don't see people kind of bouncing from job to job. I don't see people like having a super easy time finding new jobs, and certainly the culture of millennials is one of extreme economic precarity right there, obviously not experience. Basing this moment as a moment of easy money to are. You seeing that is that your experience, I think there are a few things going on one. Is that I do think that anti-trump sentiment does probably us perception to the economy to some extent in what I imagined to be your social circle Michelle because I see this. I think in my own social circles where you know, I moved back and forth between conservative and liberal circles. And I hear liberal say the kind of things now that I sometimes conservative say in the Obama era where conservative food say, oh, you know, sure, the stock market is going up, but that's an illusion. And you know, there was just a strong partisan tendency for conservatives to look for bad news under Obama, and I feel like I've seen some of that among my liberal friends in the Trump economy. So I think there's there's a little bit of a perception issue. But there's also the fact that the economy right now is as good as it's been certainly since the late nineteen ninety s but it's. Taken us a long time to sort of crawl our way out of the great recession. We only reached the median income numbers of the late nineteen ninety s a couple of years ago. Right. So I don't think it would be surprising that there would be a kind of overhang from that that makes people feel less boom ish and less confident than they would have if we hadn't had this incredibly slow crawl. And then I also think there there may be in the late nineteen ninety s I feel like these sort of concentration of affluent people in big cities hadn't yet reached the saturation level that has driven house prices as insanely high as they are in the bay area and New York and Boston and so on I my suspicion is that the sort of upper middle class cost of living issues, including student debt, which is larger now than it was twenty years ago. Loom large in the sentiment that you're picking up on. But I don't know what do you think? David. I think that's exactly right. I think look the economy is very healthy. He right now, if you're just looking at what has it done over the last several months or the last couple years. I'm it really is if you look at how much wages have risen, and what inflation has done over the last couple of years. It looks really good. But Ross your point that this has come after years of weakness and doesn't make up for that weakness. I think is a crucial point the wealth trends, you just mentioned the income trends, but the wealth trends, look even worse. The Federal Reserve reports the only every three years, so we don't have a current number. But when you look at those numbers, the typical households wealth in this country is actually behind where it was a decade ago. And so people are less rich than they were a decade ago. Most do it on a lot of stocks. And that is just going to create a situation where people are not feeling totally flush as you said Michelle, it just doesn't seem that way. And so I guess my view is the economy right now is doing pretty well. But it's come after years in which it wasn't doing that. Well, and. And I don't think it's sustainable. I mean, look if the economy were to keep doing this for the next year or so then I think Trump's odds winning reelection are higher than I previously thought. But I think it's pretty unlikely that they're going to do. So I mean, I guess one thing I wonder is do you guys think that if the economy keeps doing this Trump can win over, you know, another five or ten percent of Americans who so far have been unwilling to say they approve of him. I would be surprised if it's that many to me the problem in the real danger is that he doesn't necessarily need another five or ten percent to win reelection. Right. I mean, I do think you have a pretty strong fifty percent of the country that hates Trump considers his presidency and intolerable moral insult and is gonna vote against him. But I don't think that fifty percent of the country is distributed in such a way that it actually can be guaranteed to win an election. Right. I mean, I think to me the danger is that Trump could end up winning. Election probably with an even smaller share of the popular vote, but be able to point to successes in the rust belt states, where at least a plurality of people weren't kind of completely appalled by him on a moral and cultural level. I mean, I I don't think he can win reelection with a smaller share of the popular vote. But I do think another year of this. I don't think it'd gains him five percent. But I think he has you know, if he's sort of stuck at forty three to forty four percent approval, I think it pushes him towards forty six percent approval, which would be sort of an all time high for him and would set up probably a close election. But I think we I I would just want to go back quickly to Michelle's argument to open things because I generally agree with her. And I think this is a place where in certain ways, Trump does deserve a weird kind of credit that his total disinterest in conservative orthodoxy. But not just conservative orthodoxy of sort of bipartisan. In centrist, orthodoxy has actually led him to better economic policies in certain ways than what we had including his very public, and you know, sort of inappropriate, but correct support for keeping interest rates low in the absence of strong inflation. There was no bipartisan orthodoxy about kind of a steady deficit reduction that was just Republican refusal to cede to Obama's requests from where stem. No, I don't think that's right at all. I talked to people back in two thousand nine two thousand and ten in the Obama White House who thought, yeah, they wanted more stimulus than what Republicans would support, but they generally agreed with Obama's own pivot deficit reduction, they thought there was a certainly a bipartisan consensus that inflation could become a problem. I remember talking to Peter or zag the Obama budget director who seemed to sincerely believe that the deficit was going to be a problem, and it was important. There wasn't a heavy. Emphasis in the Obama White House on filling seats on the fed and sort of making monetary policy is loose as possible. So I think it was both Republican intransigence. But also just a sort of general mistake about the kind of landscape we were in that people on the left dissented from a few sort of monetary policy doves on the right to send it from. But was powerful not just in the Republican party. But in the Obama White House to I don't you think? That's right, David. Well, a lot of that comes from two thousand nine and ten so I think you're right that the Obama administration aired on the side as did is a writer, and you as a writer aired on the side of worrying too much about the deficit. But once you get beyond two thousand nine and two thousand and ten Michelle I agree with you in Obama's second term. He repeatedly wanted to spend money in ways that would have both helped the economy short term. And I believe helped it long-term on things like infrastructure things like pre K and the Republicans just said, no, no, no. No. No. No. No. And so I do think there's. Some nefarious keen ISM by Republicans here in which even if they pretend not to get it. They actually get it. And they're only willing to juice the economy when there's a Republican president. And so while I think Trump is sort of gotten that. Right. I don't think he's figured out something about the economy that Obama didn't understand. I don't think he sort of grasped something conceptually. But I think his lack of any connection to the kind of conservative assumptions that were forged in the late nineteen seventies modern American. Conservatism begins with stagflation of the nineteen seventies. In the assumption that the combination of easy money in high government spending lead to disaster, and you need to have someone like Paul Volcker come in and raise interest rates that sort of a default perspective for a lot of smart conservative economists. It's not just partisanship that sort of assumption about the lessons of history informed. A lot of the Republican resistance to Obama's agenda. And Trump because he's not a, you know, he's not a Republican historically. He's not a conservative. Just didn't have any of that baggage. And you could see it in the campaign. He ran and not just the way he's governed also because he doesn't really care about the future. Right. Like, even if his deficits we're going to leave to you greater inflation, and in feature I kind of assume that that fear has somewhat been discredited. But who knows maybe there is a tipping point. But it's not so much to meet that he rejects these economic assumptions is just that his whole way of living is to like borrow bunch of money. Spend it in extravagant ways, and then leave someone else holding the bag, right? That was his model as a businessman in. And that's that's in the long run. Kane said, we're all dead. So Trump is a perfect Keynesian in that sense. I'm being a little bit facetious, but only a little bit. Well, all end with something that really is. Usually a terrible idea, which is making a prediction about the economy's direction, which is that you can think about this conceptually, which is the kind of jolt of the Trump tax cuts that we've been talking. About those aren't going to repeat, right? They've already been jolted into the economy. They'll stay, but it won't cause growth going forward. And then there's this wonky thing called final sales to private mystic purchasers, which I promise I'm not going to explain right now. But basically, it's a measure of economic activity that is a little less volatile than GDP, and it showed that the economy was actually weakening early this year. So I think it's more likely than not that the economy does down over the course of twenty nineteen which makes Trump's reelection campaign a little less easy than it. Would. Maybe look right now not that it looks easy right now. So that's my prediction. Do you guys think that sounds crazy dealing? I'm falling victim to predicting what emerging for in terms of Trump having a harder reelection campaign. It's so hard for me to say in part because you know, I don't root for a recession because they don't want people to suffer. But I would love to see a stock market meltdown. Because most of the people who would suffer in that situation. Nation can take it. I certainly would happily lose every cent of my savings. If it meant that Donald Trump would have less likelihood of being reelected. It's hard for me. Not to read the economic news through the scrim of of wishful thinking Ross, what do you think is the right way to think about the economy going forward? I would respectfully disagree with Michelle's take. But that's probably a a longer argument my assumption, which could be totally wrong is that western Connie's right now with sort of decent monetary policy management can probably sustain slow growth recovery's for longer than we would think based on the historical record, right? We have this example in Australia. Australia's had more than two decades without a recession. And I don't think it's implausible that something like that pattern could take hold in the US where it's not sort of a constant crazy, boom. It's not the late nineteen ninety s it's not the postwar. Sancian, but it's a period of sort of sustained two percent growth. The doesn't make people feel flush and crazy and exuberant. But also doesn't produce the kind of collapse that people are always worried about and I don't think that necessarily gets Trump over the finish line to reelection. But that's sort of what I'm betting on for the next year or so. Yep. That's me as reasonable. Well. Let's leave it there. And if our predictions don't come true, we can revisit this and see where we went wrong, and we'll be right back with our second segment. Hi, I'm Sam stiffen founding editor of NY cooking. And we're in my kitchen right now where I'm making us dinner. One of the great things about testing recipes ourselves is that we do a lot in home kitchens cooking on a home kitchen means we're cooking in the same kind of kitchen. Our users cooking, we're not using restaurant. Stoves were using rental apartments stoves and family stoves. And that's really important when you're doing the kind of work that I do which involves talking to a lot of chefs about the food that they prepare and then trying to figure out how to make that food tastes the way. It does in the restaurant, but at home using methods of the home cook and recipes for the home-cooked need to be written differently. Love that. Love that. Come see us at MIT cooking dot com. Sign up for a newsletter start saving recipes and above all cook with us. I think you'll find it worth you want. That's a great sound at the end the elite, smells good too. Each day seems to bring a new way in which the Trump administration ignores congress and ignores the law as well White House to congress this afternoon. This is war. The administration is not honoring subpoenas. The IRS has refused to release President Trump's tax returns and William bar. The attorney general will not testify before the house or release the full unredacted Muller report all of which is raised. The question is a constitutional crisis now inevitable Ross I want to start this segment by giving you a bit of a hard time. And then inviting you to push back if you think I'm being unfair. You recently argued that bar who's been at the center of many of these fights hasn't really been behaving that badly. So let's play what you said two weeks ago. I think the liberal freak out over bars summary is a little bit foolish. I think it was maybe modestly tilted towards Trump. But I think it was a reasonably accurate summary of what Muller found well, Robert Mueller himself seems to disagree with you. There. He has written a letter complaining about the misleading nature of the bar summary. So first Ross have you changed your mind about the bar letter. And second do you think a constitutional crisis is inevitable? No. I haven't changed my mind about the bar ladder. I think it was a reasonable summary of what Muller actually found I understand that Muller as he said in the letter felt that it lent itself to interpretations that didn't capture the richness and complexity and depth of the actual Muller report. But I think putting out a summary that states accurately that the report found no definitive proof of collusion and rendered a mixed verdict on obstruction of Justice. And then putting out the full report. A few weeks later was not the kind of crazy abuse of power that liberal seemed to see, and I think that what I think I said in that argument is still what I think that liberals were angry at bar are really angry at. Muller or or at House Democrats who probably aren't going to impeach Trump or some combination thereof and blaming Trump's attorney general for not launching a prosecution of Trump is just a misunderstanding of how how American politics has always worked. But that's a misunderstanding of white Democrats are angry. Nobody thought that bar was going to launch a prosecution of Trump that's not his role or his job. He do you do. I mean, I'm assuming you read the Miller report every single word. So usually agree that one reason why the report didn't kind of make recommendations on criminal charges was because it cited the office of legal counsel guidance saying that a president cannot be indicted and bar just went up there during that press conference in flatly denied that that had been Miller's reasoning and acted as if Muller had left it up to him. When that's just not the case. I mean, it kind of very clearly lays out in the report that they are. Creating a factual record for congress and possibly for future. Federal prosecutors after Trump is no longer in office. I think that Muller had an obligation given the this specific obligations of the special prosecutor job to render a specific verdict on whether he thought Trump committed prosecutable offenses, independent of whether a president can actually be prosecuted while in office, and I think the report while it does cite the memo it also generally says that it's laying out arguments on both sides, and doesn't it deliberately doesn't come to a conclusion. And that seems to me to be a case that liberals and Democrats who are who are angry right now should primarily be angry at Democrats in congress who were preventing congress from moving forward on impeachment not be angry at Bill bar. That's that's all that's all. I'm saying, I think bars role in all of this is just greatly exaggerated by his prominence. And by this democratic sense that you know, there was this three week window where Trump control the narrative, which I don't think he did it. All okay. So we're clearly not going to agree about big aspects of the mullahs report. But Ross what about the second question when you look beyond the Miller report when you see the Trump administration defying subpoenas and not being willing to provide the tax returns and all the stuff related to the Muller report. Do you think that we're headed towards some sort of constitutional conflict? Here are you? Okay. With what the Trump administration is doing, you know to get a constitutional crisis. You have to get one branch effectively in defiance of another branches constitutional powers. So the Trump administration is within it to right to make a lousy legal argument for why it doesn't want to release the tax returns. And it only becomes a crisis. If that lousy legal argument goes as. Cream court. The supreme court dismisses it and the Trump administration still refuses which is what you've got sort of what you tiptoed towards with Nixon with the subpoena stuff. I think it's on there. The ball is sort of in Congress's court. I think congress has powers at it hasn't used in a long time to hold people in contempt and it also has again the power of impeachment, which I think you could imagine the Trump administration sort of performing a kind of stonewalling that ultimately does sort of force the house his hand forces them towards impeachment. But I think it's too early to tell how that's all going to develop Michelle, do you think we're headed toward a constitutional crisis. We've been in a constitutional crisis. Right. I mean, when you basically have the secretary of the treasury just kind of flatly say that he is going to defy the law for kind of legal reasons of his own you have a constitutional crisis. And we have this hope that the courts are going to step in that the supreme court is gonna step in maybe and fix this. But I don't see why. Democrats would have any fate. I mean to me the whole system has been so deeply corrupted at this point, right? So you have this election of dubious legitimacy, and then the attempt to investigate the obstruction that has gone on in kind of concert with that election is possibly going to be stymied. By the fact, that this illegitimate president has been able to put his nominees on the court nominees who have shown extreme deference to executive power and sort of extreme contempt for for president. So if it goes to the supreme court, and you get a five four decision with all of the conservatives ruling against congressional power. I mean, I don't know if you would then call that a constitutional crisis or just a kind of constitutional implosion where the separate we know where the kind of three Coequal branches just doesn't mean what it used to. I just think they're all kinds of ways in which the Trump administration is behaving in ways that no previous recent administration has the. The IRS is a good example of it. The law seems pretty clear on this. And I just worry that we set some kind of new nor and that going forward whether it's Republican or democratic administration when administrations don't want to comply with a law. That's inconvenient for them. They won't do. So. And it seems to me a large part of the rule of law is is some notion of good faith that I think Trump is really discarding. I mean, I think that this that this really does some of this not all of it. But some of it does turn on whether people like Robertson, Neil Gorsuch, and others are just sort of tools of Republican power or whether they are serious. Good faith jurists. I disagree that it is abnormally for administrations to make self evidently specious arguments in defense of their own moves. I think the Obama administration basically had this argument about re. Recess appointments at one point where it claimed that congress was actually in recess when it very clearly wasn't in order to make a recess appointment and the supreme court swatted that argument down, and they're plenty of case studies like this in the past. It's also kind of normal not to take it back to the bar argument. But for attorney general's to, you know, act in ways that, you know, look a little bit too favourable to their presidents. If you look at like how Janet Reno in the nineteen nineties handled the investigation into Chinese money's influence in the nineteen ninety six election. It looked at the time and still kind of looks like she was protecting Bill Clinton. And that wasn't good. But it wasn't a constitutional crisis the crisis. Can I say something? Yeah. There's a point at which a difference into greedy becomes a different in kind. Right. So you can say that, you know. Yes, there, you know, obviously, Democrats had attorney general nominees who were kind of well disposed towards the president who appointed them. But if you look at the kind of outrage. Dj that attended Bill Clinton meeting a brief meeting between Bill Clinton and Loretta Lynch on the tarmac because it was seen to sort of compromise. The investigation into Hillary Clinton's Email server, and you compare that to the constant conversations that Bill bar admitted to with the White House, you compare that to the fact that Bill bar couldn't really bring himself to deny that the White House has suggested prosecuting, it's political enemies. I mean, the comparison just seems so off to me, but there's a point at which you know, you sort of take something to such an extreme that we're no longer talking about the same kind of system. I mean, I basically agree with I think both of you that Trump is abnormal and therefore constitutionally dangerous in particular ways, and sort of his his total lack of interest in constitutional. Niceties and sort of normal public presentation. I I think all that is real. And so I don't I don't think it's wrong to find aspects of this more alarming than you would find Janet Reno's behavior under Clinton or Loretta Lynch's behavior under Obama. But I also think you need to keep a certain kind of perspective. I I would recommend reading a piece by Jack Goldsmith, who's a respected conservative legal thinker for law fair where he basically defends bar and argues that bars behavior is sort of a normal reasonable conservative interpretation of the special prosecutor statute, and that he's basically getting a kind of grief that would be it would be the equivalent of after Jim Komi came out, and sort of gave his weird little speech condemning Hillary Clinton while declining to indict her everyone had freaked out and said that, you know, Loretta Lynch had an obligation to immediately indict Hillary Clinton. But again, nobody is saying that bar. Has an obligation to indict Trump. Nobody saying that right? But then all but with bar, then you're down to an argument that he is basically spinning a little too much on the White House's behalf Ross. I think the place I agree. Most with you is in the end, the most important actors here are the supreme court and the question is will the five conservative justices act like Republican functionaries or will they act as jurists, and I will confess I'm really nervous because there are times when I think the supreme court in modern times has acted like jurists, and there are times the most obvious is Bush v gore when they've acted like functionaries of one party. And so I agree with you. It's really hard to figure out. How alarmed we should be about this until the court weighs in. But I I wish I felt more confident about how much the court was willing to stand up to a Republican administration. So we will leave it there for now. And no doubt come back to this. Once the court does weigh in. That's our second segment. We'll be right back with a recommendation. Now, it's time for our weekly recommendation. When we spend a few minutes and try to take your mind off of politics. Michelle, it is your turn this week. What's your recommendation, my recommendation is going for a HUD air balloon ride? The first time I went hot air ballooning. I think like nineteen years ago in Turkey. And I've remembered it all this year's as sort of magical experience, and because of that I sort of wondered if I was remembering it correctly. I was in Arizona couple of weeks ago. Onell is apparently a really good region for hot air ballooning because it's really dry. And I mean, it was just so, you know, it's so peaceful. Even though there's like a Cajun loud noises when they turn up the gas to make the flames that make the hot air balloon rise and fall. But then when the gas is on you're just, you know, floating, and you know, it's a way to be in nature. Without, you know, the kind of tedium of hiking, and you know, it's like just enough adventure to feel like you've like really done something exciting. And so I just yeah. Go hot air. Ballooning have either of you guys ever been no my experiences hot air ballooning comes from reading the travels of Babaar where they take a hot air balloon crashes on on a cannibal island. So I have sort of literary traumas associated with hot air balloons, but I should probably overcome them by taking a hot air balloon trip. One thing about it is that you do sort of crash land. I mean, I guess that's the reason I probably wouldn't take kids till there little bit older is that the landing is always sort of rough and you kind of drag along the ground and baby stop right side up or maybe kind of falls over. How do you? How are you with heights, generally? I like heights. Yeah. Because when I go up on like, you know, the the ferris wheel rides where you're in almost. A gondola compartment not a big fan. So I'm concerned that I would I would struggle in the balloon. Does it? Does it feel like do you feel like you're sort of inside it when you're up there, you're in you're in like a basket? I mean, so the thing that's kind of frightening. When you first go up is that you do I, you know, it's like you. I find feel yourself rising up, and you sort of realize that there's just this like wicker platform between you and the earth. And that's kind of scary until you get used to it. I'm literally sweating as you speak. Yeah. I'm glad you had a great time doing I find that idea totally terrified I don't mind being big buildings, but the idea of being high of and not enclosed totally terrifies me so hot air ballooning for everyone. But me and Ross that's our show for this week. Thank you so much for listening. If you have thoughts or questions, please leave us voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four. That's three four seven nine one five four. Three to four. You can also Email us at argument and NY times dot com. And if you like what you hear please leave us a rating or review in apple podcasts this week show was produced as it always is by Alex Laughlin and Winton walling for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is Greco on. We had help from Tyson Evans Phoebe let Ian Persad Philbrick and Freddie Shevess. Our theme was composed by Allison Leyton Brown. We'll see you back here next week. But I think it was a reasonably accurate summary of what Muller found me again. Well, Robert Miller.

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Will Michael Cohen's Testimony Doom Trump?

The Argument

36:29 min | 2 years ago

Will Michael Cohen's Testimony Doom Trump?

"I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm Rostow it. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week, President Trump's former lawyer has testified before congress does this mean, we're in a new stage of the Trump presidency. Once again, I feel like we're left with this question of does anything matter. Then is Bernie Sanders the Democratic Front runner he may not be the front runner, but he is certainly a front runner and finally a recommendation. This is an art film film. After two years Robert Muller's investigation into Russian interference in the two thousand sixteen election finally seems to be winding down within weeks. The investigation could be completed and Muller could submit a report to the Justice department. But that's not the only investigation that Trump faces the new democratic majority in congress is ready to exercise its power of oversight yesterday. Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen testified in front of the house oversight committee about the two thousand sixteen campaign about Trump's business, practices and about other matters. I am here under oath to correct. The record to answer the committee's questions, truthfully. And to offer the American people what I know about President Trump, we're recording this late on Wednesday afternoon. And Ross was not able to join us. So Michelle, and I are gonna sort it all through Michelle. What do you make of everything that happened with Michael Cohen still my feeling right now? And we're kind of in-between. The morning session and the resumption later this evening. Is a sort of, you know, numb despair over the fact that this very likely won't be enough to end the unendurable nightmare of this presidency. Even though at obviously showed being you sort of a magic testimony like this from the closest confidante door one of the closest confidants of any other president, you know, not just hard evidence of committing felonies. But also the testament to his, you know, despicable character that testament to the fact that he was if not colluding with a foreign power clearly seeking financial gain from a foreign power the entire time that he was running for president and saying all of these wonderful things above ladder. Putin try to think back about like, if you could have foreseen this moment when Trump was elected, you know, if you could have said that within two plus years, Michael Cohen, your conciliatory is going to be sitting in front of. Congress calling you a racist a con man and a cheat. If you could have projected that or predicted that, you know, back when this this nightmare began, you would've kind of assumed that that was the end game, right? That when you get to that point. It means it's all wrapping up, and yet, you know, once again, I feel like we're left with this question of, you know, anything matter. Yeah. I mean, I guess so to me the optimistic take from today is we knew there wasn't going to be some smoking gun that was going to make these Republican House members say, oh, we were wrong to follow them all along. So in that way, that was the least surprising thing about today. But I guess the case for optimism is that wall people like you, and I have been following this very closely for months on end a lot of Americans haven't and this is a hearing. That's just going to dominate TV and social media. And I do think that there's a way in which a whole bunch of people who haven't been paying attention to. This are going to start to pay more attention to it. And in that way. It does feel like it is not good for Trump. None of the Republicans are defending him on the merits here. Right. They're coming up with these first fascinating about this too in that Cohen is actually up there knocking down. Yes. A lot of stories rumors about Trump, right? These kind of saying there was not this mythical elevator tape of Trump heading Malania. He believes doesn't exist. He saying that even though they paid off someone for information about a love child. He doesn't believe love child is real. He kind of said that he had never that to his knowledge. She doesn't know about Trump paying off women for quote unquote, medical procedures, which is code for abortion. He is he's never been to Prague. And so he's actually saying a lot of things that are that that are exculpatory that are right. That are sculpt, Tori. You know? Obviously, the headline or the the kind of snippet that I assume people will see that's kind of extraordinary. Opening statement that he made. Yeah. And the conservative writer Byron York had a nice summary of this on Twitter. Here's what he wrote Michael Cohen is knocking down various crazy anti-trump stories Prague, which is a reference to this meeting that apparently didn't happen involving the Trump campaign in Prague money laundering. Lovechild abortion elevator tape. Other tapes more this after Republican spent all their time attacking his credibility. And so actually, the only person who's sort of defending Trump on the substance today was Michael Cohen, which is crazy to say, the one thing that really surprised me about all of this is just that Michael Cohen is coming across really, well, you know, I think my impression of him has always just been of this dim witted thug. And you know, it's not that. I don't think that I think that he's now an honorable man, but he does seem a little bit quicker on his feet than some of these Republican congressmen not that that's necessarily saying so much. I mean, one of the Republican congressman said you called the president. Cheat. What would you call yourself and Michael Cohen said a fool there was this like weighty silence as they tried to think about what to say in response rate. I mean that was almost a sense in which he's really trying to speak to these congressmen who believe in Trump, and are sort of caught up in defending Trump the way he was once caught up in defending Trump. Right. And he really seemed to be trying to almost like break through to them. I agree. He came off. Well, I think he made only two mistakes there were a few times where he let his temper get the better of him any any yelled at replace Republican questioners while you understand why he'd be doing that. I don't think it helps him and the second. I don't know what you thought about this. But his explanation that the reason that he flipped on Trump is because he decided that Trump had had become evil after what Trump said about Charlottesville, or what Trump did with Putin in Helsinki. I just don't think that's credible. I think it's pretty clear. He flipped because he was facing prison time. Right. I seem you agree with that. Yes. No. Of course, obviously he turned on Trump. I think you know, both. Out of self preservation. And then also probably out of a sense of betrayal. When Trump didn't come to his rescue, and and turned on him and threw him under the bus, and you know, kind of pretended that he had never known him or that their relationship hadn't been as intimate as Michael Cohen imagined it to be, but you know, and the other thing I would say that it was hard to believe was his line about kind of that. He never wanted a job in the in the White House for that's interesting. I I mean, I could see how someone wouldn't why why did you not find that? 'cause I don't know. I just because all the reporting I've seen his, you know, suggested that he your thought that he was gonna be White House chief of staff or a magic that he was going to Washington. I mean, I just feel like I trust the reporting that I've seen over over Michael Coen's word the structure of the thing is so frustrating rate, the like five minute five minute back and forth. 'cause I mean there were so many threads that I want people to pick up on. And I also just wanted someone to say in response to the Republicans who keep saying you how can we trust? You. You have. Done all these terrible corrupt things to say. Well, what does it say about the president that this was his personal lawyer? And I keep wanting somebody to put an end this kind of self righteous posturing of like, we could be doing the people's business. And instead, we're here listening to a criminal, you know, from the same people that like literally called diamond and silk to a hearing about whether or not conservative voices, get adequate play on social media. My big takeaway, if we're gonna look forward now is the Democrats need to do a lot more of this. Which is they really need to use their house majority to try to sort through what's true. And what's not about Trump? And look some of the crazy theories. We've heard are going to end up not being true. Right. I just as Cohen has shot some of them down. But a lot of them are going to end up being true. And so I guess I look at this. And it makes me say the Democrats need to do a lot more of this. They need to do a lot more calling witnesses. They need to get Trump's tax. Turns. I I don't completely understand why they're waiting so long to do that. But I mean, isn't your hope that we basically are now at the beginning of a period in which we're gonna see a lot of hearings like this. Yeah. I mean, I think we are at you know, Adam Schiff has told me as much that he intends to do some of that one thousand televisions committee made clearly I think that Jerry Nadler intends to do some of that with the judiciary committee. And so speaking to your optimism, there's this really interesting book called the battle for public opinion, which is a sort of wonky book about polling during Watergate, and and looking very carefully at when public opinion turned because for most of Watergate people, you know, didn't think it was that important Nixon in his defenders called it a witch hunt and Republicans in congress pooh-poohed it, and when it really started to turn was when you had televised hearings. I'm not sure if that's replicable. In the current environment. When everyone's attention is much more fragmented, but this particular hearing, right? I mean, it's not just on cable news. It's on the networks. It's going to be on all of the news broadcasts. And so I mean, these congressmen do you think they're really this dumb? Or are. They just sort of being theatrically obtuse. I think they're being theatrically obtuse. What's the old line? It's it's hard to get a man to believe something when when his paycheck depends on not believing it and for a lot of these people if they start defying Trump their political careers or done, but I'm thinking of the one congressman who says he never heard of Mike he's he's implying that Michael Cohen is like thrilled to be on television. That's what this is all about. And he said something like I've never heard of you before today. Yeah. That was a weird moment which like really, well, he was deputy finance chair of the Republican National Committee. So on the one hand, I thought like cannot actually be true. But there are probably some people, you know, maybe a lot of people for whom. I'm Michael Cohen is like, you know, at best kind of name that they've seen in the news. But they don't have a really clear picture of. And again, I just it's become impossible for me to try to like project, my mind outward to think about like, how somebody who doesn't think Trump is unfit is processing all of this. Because even though I think of myself as an empathetic person, it is very hard for me to get my mind around what it would be like to look at Trump and think that he has any business being president of the United States. So since Ross can't be with us. Let me try to channel him for the very end here. I mean, we've both listened to him say look in the end people elected Trump, knowing he was kind of a sleazy businessman, but that's different from there being any evidence that he actually participated in some sort of conspiracy with Putin's government, and I feel like in the lead up to the Muller report being released. There are a lot of people were saying, you know, the Mahler report might be disappointing. To Trump's critics, and you can see how Coen's testimonies damaging as it was plays into that. Right. He he never said Trump directed him to lie. So it looks like that BuzzFeed story was wrong. He was doesn't. Right. I mean, I feel like it kind of suggests that the BuzzFeed story was wrong because he only implicitly urged him to lie. Yeah. That's fair. I mean, I guess I don't think that's going to win over people who haven't been one over yet. And so I guess I'm sort of interested in given that case how you're now feeling about the molar report. Are you sort of preparing yourself for the possibility that it's gonna feel like a dud, or or do you still think it's gonna be a big deal? I think both right. What people like me are hoping from the Mola report is not necessarily that. It's going to expose a giant conspiracy to me the giant conspiracy is in plain sight, it's that it will summon enough evidence that people who are have Mula sleep denying. It will no longer be able to and that's a pretty high bar. And so, you know, whether it will end the debate about this stuff, I think is different than whether it will show that Trump is a traitor and should be impeached. I mean to me that's already been amply demonstrated. Yeah. And I mean, I'm not sure I would go as far as trader. But I I certainly would go as far as he has violated. His oath violated the law and doesn't deserve to be mean. I would say trader probably not in the technical like rate, probably not under the law. We're not technically, you know, we're not a war with Russia. So I understand. Yes. It doesn't meet the legal definition of treason. You know, and you could put that on a red baseball cap. You know, doesn't meet the legal definition of treason. But I feel like that's the best you could save for this president. And then there is this cringe worthy moment where a Republican member of congress tried to defend Trump and the way he did it was by dragging out Lynn Patton, who's an African American woman who previously had been a Trump family wedding planner, which qualified her and Trump's estimation to be part of the department of housing and urban development. And basically literally dragged her out. I don't think she even said anything she did they just had. They just had her standing there being like here is a black woman who says that Trump isn't raises. Yet. And in what I thought was one of the finest moments for any house member during the hearing, Brenda Lawrence, who's a congresswoman from Michigan later on said, how dare you use that old trope of here is a single African American person who proves whether someone is racist or not. And I thought that was just a really important that she didn't let that moment go. But she really quite bluntly called out the Republicans for doing that. Because I mean, the evidence that Donald Trump is racist is not just Michael Cohen. It's like thirty years of public statements. Wait, I mean, and this is one of the weirdest taboos in American politics. The the idea that it's kind of in any way. Controversial, right? I mean when Kamla Harris recently said like, yes, Trump is racist. That should no more. Be a controversial statement than saying. Like, yes. Trump's skin color is unnatural. It's just it's evident to the naked eye. It does sort of feel like we've entered a new phase here, doesn't it? Right. Which is we're expecting the Muller. Report. It's the beginning of these big hearings. And it feels like finally there. It's not just going to be through scoops of good journalism. But it's gonna be through a really public accounting of what Trump has done led by the House Democrats. And and I don't know how it's going to end. But I'm happy to be at that. Phase. Do you think this hearing gets us closer to impeachment proceedings in the strict definition, I'd say yes, but only a little bit closer? I mean, I don't think the house should jump from this to impeachment as you said this raises a whole bunch of other questions the house needs to pursue. They need to go after his tax returns. They need to pursue this notion that Jay Secolo, a White House lawyer may have played a role in preparing Cohen's false testimony that's gonna Land cO. And joe. So to me there is no real upside in the Democrats opening something that they call capitali impeachment. I think what they should. Instead do is go really. Hard. After the substance of all this stuff, the substance of Russia. The substance of the White House cover up the substance of the campaign finance violations, all of it. Go really hard after it. And and then a few months from now when it no longer feels like as you said, we're just sort of tantalizingly at the beginning of this evidence. But we actually have a clearer sense of what really happened at that point. I'm totally open to the idea that they should open impeachment hearings. And in fact, maybe it will be the only good option at this point. I guess I think that it will look more political if they opened impeachment, and I think they should keep going after the substance of it. Although I agree with you on the substance. I I don't think it's crazy to be talking about impeachment. It's probably right. And look, obviously, we're going to learn a lot more in the next few weeks because we're expecting the Muller report then and so we will come back to talk about that on the show. Of course, when it comes out now that we're gonna take a quick break, and we'll be back for a segment with Ross to talk about Bernie Sanders. This is Deb Emlyn crossword columnist for the New York Times solving the times crossword is like entering another world where your mind can stretch its legs. The wordplay column has your back if you need some help and soon you'll want to solve every day. Start a puzzle over breakfast and finish by bedtime. It's everything a habit should be fun relaxing and able to go anywhere with you. Download the app or start playing online at NY times dot com slash solve to experience life in the grid. Bernie Sanders is back. So Senator Sanders you're going to run for president. I am going to run for president. That's correct. And this time he isn't just a shot outsider among the twenty twenty presidential candidates. He leads everyone. But Joe Biden in the polls, and it's still not clear whether Biden is even running on the day that Sanders announced his campaign, he raised six million dollars far more than any other candidates did on their announcement day today. We're going to talk about whether Sanders deserves to be treated as the front runner and whether his presence and the campaign is likely to help or hurt the Democrats retake the White House, but I want to start with the emotional aspect of the Sanders campaign because it really doesn't spy such strong feelings from democratic voters many view him as the only good candidate while many others seem to resent him. Michelle. Can you help us understand? Why Bernie Goetz people so worked up it's a couple of different things. I mean, there's still a lot of really hard feelings leftover from twenty six. Sixteen a lot of people feel like he hung onto long after. There was no way that he could get the nomination, and that kind of left progressives in the party demobilized into moralize, and obviously the Russians were able to exploited that people believe that when he finally did endorse Hillary and start campaigning for her that it was sort of grudging and have hearted. And you know, the the whole concept of the Bernie, bro is really controversial and volatile. I understand that a lot of his supporters resent it because they feel like it's a smear of the whole movement. Can you Michelle can you just define for our listeners? What is a Bernie, bro, a certain kind of socialist white male who enjoys hectoring non Bernie supporters about why their concerns with identity. Politics are kind of trivial and bourgeois. There's just like a certain kind of. In my experience sneering, white male Bernie supporter that was so grading. And that I think it unfairly may be colored some of my perceptions of Bernie, let me put it this way. My husband, and I both have acquaintances that we will probably never speak to again because of our interactions over the twenty sixteen campaign. Right. So this to me is one of the big questions hanging over burning. Because I've always thought unlike a lot of people that he may not be the front runner for the nomination. But he is certainly a front runner. You know, you're looking at you're looking at a divided field right with lots and lots and lots of candidates getting in obviously, Bernie isn't gonna command all the voters who voted for him as a protest vote against Hillary Clinton. But at the very least there's clearly fifteen to twenty to twenty five percent of the democratic electorate that is plausibly ready for Bernie. And that's a big junk in an divided field. That's a chunk to build on. If you want to win New Hampshire in Iowa, which are both plausible states, very plausible states for Bernie Sanders to win. So I've I've always taken him very seriously as a candidate to me the big question is the one race by Michelle's bad memories. Right. Which is that there is this extraordinary level of ill feelings left over from the two thousand sixteen campaign on the democratic side that I think creates a strong anti Bernie bias among a bunch of the kind of liberals, and progressives who I would think would in a different context be open to supporting him. And that to me is sort of a big hurdle potentially that he has to get over. I'm not saying he's gonna win. But isn't that a bigger issue on left Twitter as people say than in the real world aren't a lot of those feelings more intense among journalists in operatives than among large numbers of. Voters and if Bernie actually emerges one of the two people in this race. I don't know. I guess my instinct is he he's not actually going to lose that many votes over those bad feelings, I think if you look at the polls, you know, if you look at polls kind of asking Harris supporters, for example, their opinions of the other candidates. They don't, you know, people who support Kamala Harris don't have negative opinions by and large Bernie Sanders sort of true for a lot of the candidates, right? The democratic electorate is much less polarized than Twitter know, so my worst case scenario is that it comes down to Bernie Sanders and Kamala Harris, and then we have this like reprieves of this knock down drag out battle between a class. I approach to progressive politics and one that takes into account issues of representation and identity politics for lack of a better word. And so, you know, I think that that could potentially get really ugly, but you know. If Bernie Sanders comes out of this process as the nominee. I don't think that people will coalesce behind him pretty quickly. And there's something interesting going on which is that. If he were anyone else, I think it would be obvious to everyone that he was the front runner, right? If that he's leading in the polls, he's leading in donations. He was the runner up last time around, and there is something like Trump in that. It took everybody. I think longtime to internalize the fact that Trump was the front runner, even though he was leading in the polls, even though by all sorts of metrics. He was the front runner, you just couldn't get your head around it. And so I think there's something similar going on here. I think there's a fascinating analogy, which I keep pushing on Twitter, and I I don't people aren't really excited by. So maybe it's not that fascinating. But between Bernie Sanders now and Ronald Reagan in nineteen seventy six and nineteen eighty where Sanders looks a lot like Reagan did going into the nineteen eighty election. He is the runner up from a bitterly contested prior. Mary battle like the primary battle Reagan fought against Ford. He's the avatar of a sort of ideological movement within his political party he's widely seen as too old and too extreme to get his party's nomination, let alone to win the presidency, and then he's up against potentially a President Donald Trump who for all their personal differences has some resemblance to Jimmy Carter in the sense of being this sort of weak president trying to hold together a failing coalition. So I I can totally tell a story where what happened with Reagan in nineteen eighty happens with Bernie Sanders in twenty in twenty twenty and he's the next president of the United States. And I I like to tell that story to conservative audiences just to just a freak them out a little bit it when you make that argument, it almost sort of makes me more inclined to support Bernie Sanders. My own feeling is still have the fear that he's too old. And that even though he's incredibly popular. Hillary Clinton was also incredibly popular before the two thousand sixteen election. And so, you know, again, maybe it's just my age or may own sort of personal temperamental caution. But I do worry that when the videos of him praising the ultimate union or praising, you know, the Sandinistas in Nicaragua. I think that you know, the younger socialists can't quite imagine that that will have any salience in the modern world. I kind of feel like for people over forty it will in this. I think goes to part of why he makes so many people who don't support him, but who kind of support his politics so angry is that his whole theory of the case is that it's not just that. He doesn't sort of take density politics. Seriously said he can't quite believe that anybody else takes density politics, seriously. And so there's been this debate among people who don't like Trump ever since the clock. L'amitie of the election over whether his voters were driven by kind of quote, economic anxiety, or whether they were driven by racial resentment. Or you know, in what proportion those two things played a role and Sanders, I think believes that they were driven by economic anxiety and a week ago. One of his pollsters was telling politico that they think that they can win states like Montana and West Virginia and Indiana. So they have you know, basically, this analysis of white working class voters that if you give them a populist option all that these kind of cultural grievances will become secondary and will become less important. And I don't see any evidence. In decades of American politics to make me think that that's true. Look, I'm not a Bernie, bro. As the Bernie rose will be the first to tell you. But I think there there is a way in which Bernie's at the sweet spot of of American pie. Politics, which is economically left. Yes. He's more to the left than most Americans, but economically left, and sort of not talking that much about the other stuff. Do you disagree? But then why then why are you behind him? Well, so that's a fair question. My object. So I to me the best thing about Bernie is one that he's sweet spot too. I think he's pushing in the right direction and three he doesn't talk like a journalist or an economist. He talks like a really savvy politician who just keeps repeating a message again. And again, my problems with him are that when you scratch the surface of his policies. I think there are a lot less thoughtful than say Elizabeth Warren's policies, I think when you go into the details of her policies, which are also trying to move the country to the left. She gives more thought to things like unintended consequences and actual details of implementation. And I think Bernie's basic analysis of how he would succeed as president is of look we're just going to build a movement and the Republicans are. Gonna have to come along. I think is just way too simplistic. And and those are my problems with him. I think we also haven't tested the hypothesis that Bernie level leftism can be general election winner. And just just to be clear. I think Bernie can be Trump. I think he would might have a tougher time than a self consciously moderate democratic candidate. I'm not sure he'd have a tougher time than the other people running in the sort of liberal to left lane, which it's a lot of people right now. But it's not just that Bernie's positions are on the left because it's true that the party is a whole is moved to roughly where he is. It's also that he does have this whole personal history as a Tribune of socialism, and we can debate and go back and forth about what socialism means. But to Bernie Sanders in the nineteen seventies and eighties. It clearly meant that the Soviet Union was kind of kind of a cool place. Right. I don't think he he is literally a good Representative of what the Democratic Party is. Right. I mean, the Democratic Party at this point is a coalition of people of color and affluent educated white liberals, right? And so to kind of have somebody like Bernie who obviously draws from both of those groups, absolutely. But whose vision of what the progressive movement is I think still a magin a lot of people from the white working class. I'm just not sure that that's the coalition that you should be focused on mobilizing if you want to win. But I think it's possible that he will run a much savvier campaign. This time around you know, he has a campaign manager fudge secure. You know, there's something lovely about the fact that the most viable Jewish politician to ever wage to ever run for president now has as far as I know the first Muslim to run a major presidential campaign that sort of the future that I want. So you know, it's possible that he will run. On a campaign that you know, kind of sidesteps some of what I see is a blinkered view of kind of what the Democratic Party is. So let sent here. I mean, I view Ross you said before that you clearly think Bernie Sanders is a front runner. I would to me right now. In terms of likelihood of getting the nomination. I put Sanders Kamala Harris, and Joe Biden who may or may not run in the top tier? And then I think there's a next year that includes Beto and Elizabeth Warren, and maybe some others any objections to the way, I've I've laid it out there. Yeah. No. I think I would put Cory Booker in here as well. Yeah. I think that's I think that's right. I mean, I think Biden Biden is weird. He sort of like right now the dark matter of the of the race where we just we know something with Sanders. Right. We know that there is sort of a committed Bernie movement there that may only be fifteen percent of the democratic electorate, but it's real with Biden. It's more sort of general. Good feelings about the guy that haven't been tested in the heat of a campaign. So in certain ways, you could say he sort of in a different category from Harris and Sanders. So there's this poll that got a lot of attention which Democrats were asked whether they want a candidate who is going to win or with whom a candidate with whom they agree. And it was a clear result Democrats wanted candidate who's going to win. So Ross if you were offering the Democrats advice, I know one of your favorite pastimes, which of all these top tier candidates. Do you think gives them the best chance to win? I mean, I think if we're if we're including Biden in the top three, I think Biden is the most likely to win with the largest possible majority doesn't mean it will. But I think that's that's still the safest and most plausible bet. I think with Bernie and Harris the question is basically the the way that Bernie winds bigger than Harris is if he gives a lot of conservatives the sense that he really only cares about class and not. About culture war. Which is of course, exactly. The thing that Michelle potentially objectionable about him. But one of the things that the Trump era Republican party has been able to do is sort of maintain this sort of level of culture, war, mobilization and culture, warring Zayed's among religious conservatives, especially and speaking as a religious conservative. I like the fact that Bernie wants to talk about class more than he wants to talk about culture war, basically, and with Harris, you might end up with with reverse and that that's the path to a bigger Bernie victory. Well, we want to invite you to let us know which candidates were not talking enough about give us a call at three four seven nine one five four three two four and tell us which of the democratic candidates. You want to hear more about if you do. So we may play you on the show. Now, it's time for our weekly recommendation. Every week we give you a tip of a way to get your mind off of politics Ross. It is your turn this week. What do you have for us? Well, we've been talking about Bernie Sanders and his possible affection for the Soviet Union back in the day. And by coincidence. The Oscars just happened this week and one of the foreign language film nominees which didn't win, but maybe deserve to was a movie called Cold War by polish filmmaker whose name is Pablo public hausky apologies to any polish listeners if I butchered that, and I I also recommend his previous film Ida. They're both movies set in eastern Europe under communist rule between World War Two in the fall of the Berlin Wall and Cold War is a romance, and it is super romantic. It's the kind of romantic movie where people do incredibly stupid things for love. And for the hate that love produces. And so on, but it's basically about a couple from Poland. But the movie basically hopscotches around through different European settings from the forties into the early sixties. And it's fascinating his last movie was about a polish non whose parents probably died in the holocaust, also fascinating. So check it out and see what you think of Soviet communism before Bernie brings it back. I really liked Cold War a lot other. There was something about it. That was so mannered. I mean, it's this black and white it's shot in. I don't even know how to describe the aspect ratio. But it's shot in. It's like a square rather than a wide screen, basically. And the I really enjoyed it. But I definitely the whole time. I was watching. It was like I had the soundtrack in my head. That was like, this is an art film film. Like, it was when I was growing up in, you know, kind of the horrible suburbs than I imagined that someday I would get New York City and go to indie movie houses, this was the kind of. Movie. I imagined. I would see, you know, brooding black and white eastern European cinema with kind of romantic interludes in Paris jazz clubs, and then a tragic ending that I'm not going to give away dates. That's totally right. Yeah. Well, what what's great about it is that it feels like it could have been made in like nineteen sixty three right that it's like, I think it sort of seems like it could have been successfully sealed in a time capsule from the beat generation and sort of dropped into art houses today. And it's in theaters now and available for streaming or just I don't think it's it's available for streaming yet. I think it's just in theaters, which is as Michelle says the way to see it you want the dingy as possible theater. You know, you want like four weirdos in trenchcoat in different parts of the movie theater. I'm sure the previews will all be you know, in French or something so find that experience and then go to jazz club afterward. Okay. Ross Rawson once more the name of the movie the name of the movie is Cold War. But it's hot. Excellent. Has a recommendation for the week. As always we would like to hear your feedback. You can call it. Leave us voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four. And we may play you on the show. You can also Email us an argument at NY times dot com. If you like what you hear please leave us a rating or review in apple podcasts this week show was produced by Alex Laughlin for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is Gretta Cohn. We had help as we always do from Tyson Evans Phoebe let Ian Persad Philbrick and Francis. You are theme was composed by Allison Leyton Brown. We will see you next week. I just need to look up my pronunciation to its molar.

President Trump Bernie president Senator Sanders Trump Michael Cohen Michelle Robert Muller Sanders Kamala Harris White House Trump Ross Donald Trump Bernie Goetz congress Putin Biden Biden Twitter Michelle Goldberg
Is Trump the Real National Emergency?

The Argument

36:38 min | 2 years ago

Is Trump the Real National Emergency?

"I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week. The White House is strongly defending President Trump's declaration of a national emergency on the US Mexico border is Donald Trump national emergency. And what's happening with Trump is that he's got his his fingers on the burner. And he keeps twisting the knob in random directions. Then Amazon is pulling out of queens is that a good thing you want to come to New York City. Well, so does the rest of the world get number and finally a recommendation, I hear the same thing over and over and over again, they just have to read it. And so I will. Oh. Last week. President Trump finally did what he'd been threatening to do for weeks. He declared a national emergency to fund a wall on the US Mexico border, which is about an invasion of our country with drugs with human traffickers with all types of criminals, and gangs, Democrats, and even some Republicans condemned the move calling it an unconstitutional abuse of his authority, sixteen states are now suing to block the declaration this whole fight plays into one of the big questions that Ross Michelle, and I have about Trump is he a frightening. Authoritarian president or a flailing incompetent president. And I must say the national emergency pushes me toward the incompetent option. It's still not clear that the wall will ever be built or if it is that it will really affect immigration policy. Trump doesn't have anywhere near unify. Republican support on it either. So I take this as another sign of Trump's weakness, and Michelle I'm wondering if you think I'm being too blase. I go back and forth. Right. You said like is he a frightening Thawra -tarian or flailing incompetent, or I don't remember the exact language, but I think the answer is both. And when you look at other countries that have undergone this transformation from liberal democracy to third -tarian ISM. You know, it doesn't happen all in one fell swoop and it often happens over period of years. So on the one hand, it seems like Trump is too weak and kind of disengaged from the details of governing to actually institute this transformation at the same time. He has hollowed out a lot of the government. He has normalized kind of authoritarian rhetoric that used to be unprecedented, and he has normalized I think this sort of like extra legal mode of governing. And so. So, you know, part of what's happened with Trump. We talk about this all the time is this frog in a pot phenomenon where actions that would have created huge amount of shock and outrage a year ago or two years ago, we now sort of have become a nerd to. And so everybody rolls there is when for example, he accuses the former acting director of the FBI of treason. And so while this declaration may be isn't that scary? It's gonna make it that much easier for him to do the next one. And the next one might be in circumstances. That are a lot more learning. I wanna take Michelle's metaphor and suggests something a little different with it. Which is that basically over the course of multiple presidencies when it comes to executive power, and what we call the imperial presidency. We've been in a kind of boiling, the frog situation where you had this immense consolidation of executive power over foreign policy and national security. The after nine eleven that George W Bush pushed and then Barack Obama basically embraced. And then you had an a substantial expansion check by the courts in various ways of presidential power over domestic policy pushed by Obama in his second term around healthcare and climate policy and immigration. So that was that was sort of the frog being boiled slowly. And what's happening with Trump is that he's got his his fingers on the burner. And he keeps twisting the knob in random directions. And so the heat keeps flaring up and the frog keeps jumping around even though the water isn't necessarily getting hotter. Is this? This may be a terrible metaphor. So, but but what I'm trying to say is that I think the real danger here, the more plausible danger is that you have really politically effective presidents who make power grabs that work, and what Trump is doing is sort of exposing how that works by being really crude and ridiculous about it. And I think it's actually weakening the imperial presidency in various ways and making an authoritarian. Scenario less likely than it would be under a more sophisticated future imperial president. And you think that's danger? I think that I think that the danger over the long run is basically that American democracy. The constitutional system is devolving into this order with a vista GIO legislature. That doesn't really do anything and an executive that claims more and more power because nobody else's claiming that power, and then ends up getting an endless fights with the supreme court. And I think that dynamic has continued under Trump, I just think it's more overt and transparent and crude and so people are much more aware of it. And Trump isn't as good at doing what? Bush and Obama did cloaking his power grabs in sort of, you know, consensus oriented rhetoric and so on and so people are just more aware of what's actually happening. One of the fundamentally frightening things about this wall declaration is that it's based on a racist lie, and you know, this is sort of a hallmark of third -tarian governments is that they both, you know, kind of make up lies, and then create government policies to in stand. She ate those lies, and that's very very different from Obama going around Mitch McConnell to establish dock, and that actually is my number one fear here, which is I agree with you Michelle this is based on a racist lie, and there's another court case, which is similar. It's the attempt to add a question to the census about citizenship status in which the administration's lies have now been documented in federal court. And I do worry a little bit about this idea that the president makes up some lie, and then the courts feel some need to say, well, we'll meet you halfway that. That is my one feet. So I mean, again, this I think this is a really interesting. Right. Because I I agree that Trump is a more transparent and flagrant liar than any normal. President would be and that is a big change at the same time. It's not clear to me. How you why? It's more worrisome to have a president who tells big flagrant lies, and then we can't get the funding. He wants from congress appropriate some extra funding to build a few more miles of fencing along the Rio Grande or in that in the border area. Why is that more terrifying? Than a president who basically says I can just ignore congress and launch military interventions overseas without congressional authority, which is what Obama did in Libya. Like, I I mean, I I understand why the lies are more frightening, but at the same time, the actual policies are a much bigger deal. But I guess I feel and I'm Michelle I assume you agree that when presidents are dealing in reality as Pulmoddai did it's quite different from when they're making up an emergency and trying to do it. So to me, it's not so much the length of the fence he's building it's that he is inventing out of whole cloth. A security crisis on the border and trying to do something to respond to that for political reasons. Whereas you're really upset that Obama overreached on climate. But Obama wasn't making up climate change when he pushed the boundaries of his executive authority. And and I don't think you can ignore that distinction. Yeah. It's weather. This is just a sort of pretext to again in Stanley eight his hallucinatory vision of the world and the part of our fundamental difference. Here is that, you know, my feeling is that the threat to American liberal democracy has come not just from Trump from there. Party writ large. And so to me a Bronco. Bama was responding to a broader breakdown in the Republican party's willingness to let non Republicans govern. You know? I just I don't think you can blame Barack Obama for claiming unilateral power, or at least I wouldn't blame Brock Obama for kind of claiming whatever unilateral power. He could when you are when you saw Republicans who had basically decided the Democrats don't have the right to govern. And they are going to do anything that they can to stop Democrats from governing. But but that is literally the argument for like Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon, right? Like, it's it's not Caesar's fault that the Senate is this nest of corruption advice that unfairly wants to prosecute him when he was just fighting wars for the glory of Rome. And so he has no choice, but to March on the capital, and I I wanna be clear just to be more provocative still. There is a case there, right? Like, there is an argument that. In fact, the evolution of the imperial presidency is just necessary. Right. That like America is not really a Republican more. We really are just an empire. You need a president who can declare national emergencies willy nilly and so on because that's the only way anything ever gets done and the legislature basically exists should exist as like a mild check on executive overreach. No, I'm not going down that road with you. Right. I'm not making that argument. I'm making this argument against treating the two parties and their obstructionism and their sort of willingness to subvert norms of liberal democracy. I think that there's no argument for treating them as symmetrical. And so, you know, again because I think that the Republican party itself has become this. Authoritarian illiberal anti-democratic movement, you know, place most of the blame for the breakdown in sort of a separation of powers with them. So I wanna think about this in the context of another headline this week, which is that Andrew McCabe. The former deputy FBI director has admitted that he and his colleagues at the Justice department talked about using the twenty fifth amendment to remove President Trump from office and Trump has fired back by accusing of McCabe and accusing his own deputy attorney general rod Rosenstein of treason, which is kind of amazing his own deputy attorney general so Ross I know on some level, you really do think Trump is different from Obama or Bush. I mean, you wrote a column I endorse us I in the reason you endorse the McCabe option as it were. So are you still there? Do you still think that the twenty fifth amendment in which the cabinet and vice president vote to remove the present? Should be something. That's on the table. I think that there's the argument there actually flows from what I was just sort of provocatively saying to Michelle right, which is that the more imperial, the presidency becomes the more important. It is that the man who actually told that immense power is sort of at least semi competent to exercise it. And so that that would be the sort of the Caesar est case for using the twenty fifth amendment to remove in effective Caesar's. But I have a lot of sympathy for whatever was going through McCabe mind and other people in the Justice department because obviously I was writing this, you know, consider the twenty fifth amendment calm around that time, and that was in the first couple months of Trump's administration when there was this period when everything was chaos, and then he fired Komi, which was an objectively kind of insane thing to do and obvious at the time. It created the whole Mueller investigation, basically. And then he was it looked like he was about to fire sessions and. To me at that moment. He gave the appearance of a man incapable of exercising. The office of the presidency. Now here we are two years later, and I think it's clear that as unfit as he remains people around him like he didn't fire sessions, write he hasn't fired. He hasn't tried dealer. He hasn't. Well, he he did fire side he fired him in a normal sort of after eighteen months, you know, get a replacement lined up kind of way rather than in this sort of insane cascading behavior way. So I think it I I think there's evidence from the last two years that people around Trump have been able to restrain and channel him in ways that strongly weakens if you will the argument for removing and by the twenty fifth amendment. I wouldn't write the column in the same way today. But this is like a classic sort of frog in the pot argument rate because everything that people were afraid of happening at that moment happened it just took longer than people in -ticipant it, right? So we had sort of. Offense straighted all of the leadership of the F B I in many of the intelligence agencies. You know, it's taken him longer, but he has slowly removed all of these possible checks on his power. You know, rod Rosenstein is about to leave. We have this new attorney general William Barr who is now refusing to recuse himself and who kind of previous claim to fame was the role. He played in the pardon of various people who'd been convicted for their role in Iran-Contra rate. So we're we're getting to the point where he's kind of creating this structure of impunity. It's just that rather than taking a few months. It's taken a couple of years. I guess I think that when it comes to the twenty fifth amendment, which is again for listeners who don't know a mechanism to remove the president for incapacity. There is actually a big difference between the scale of chaos involved in those first few months, and where Trump is now I think we're Trump is now having removed some of the obstacles. To his power. If he then does proceed to do things like fire Mueller or anything else like that? Then the mechanism in response, the natural mechanism would be impeachment not the twenty fifth amendment because his behavior would suggest a man who is sort of in control of his own actions. Just in a malign way. If that distinction make sense, I so I think I think even if Michelle's worst case scenario is right, then we aren't in twenty fifth amendment territory. We're an impeachment territory. Let's end where we started with the wall. What do you each things actually going to happen are the court's going to block the wall or let some version of it? Go through Michelle. You know, I think that we have gotten really used to kind of a lying on the courts to check Trump's authoritarian impulses. But one thing that's been happening over the last two years has been the transformation of the courts, including you know, putting Cavanaugh who has shown himself to be a total partisan hack onto the supreme court. And so, you know, who knows I mean, hopefully, chief Justice Roberts will want to maintain some sort of institutional legitimacy, but I think that that institutional legitimacy is less and less of a safeguard with each new judge who's confirmed Ross I think Trump does a little bit of building under his claims of power under existing law. The emergency declaration is still being litigated in the courts. When Bernard Sanders is sworn in as the next president of the United States. And obviously part of part of that is what Trump wants right? Clearly, Trump wants the wall to campaign on in twenty twenty. And so he wants to both be able to say he's made progress on it. But also that he's been stymied enough that that he needs to be reelected in order to to finish the will finish the wall is the new slogan. Yes, okay. We will leave it there. No doubt will be coming back to a bunch of these related topics, including what William bar does is attorney general because I think the way he decides to oversee the Muller investigation as as both of you mentioned is going to be one of the really big questions for the beginning of his term. We're gonna take a quick break right now. And we will be back to talk about Amazon and New York City. Hi. This is Debbie Amblin crossword columnist for the New York Times, here's a clue for you. What's the perfect comforting twenty-first-century habit? The New York Times crossword try today and enjoy a month free. Visit NY times dot com slash solve. We're back. And now, we're gonna talk about Amazon the company announced last week that it was abandoning its plans to build a major office complex in Long Island city, queens that company abruptly announced it's pulling out after growing up -sition from some lawmakers union leaders and activists Amazon decided that it would be too difficult to deal with the progressive politicians and activists in New York who are criticizing the corporate subsidies that the company received to come to the city. Those progressives not surprisingly have been celebrating Amazon's decision, but many other people are worried that New York has needlessly damaged its own economy by scaring away. I'm Assam joining us to talk about Amazon this week is Mara Gaye, our colleague in opinion who writes about New York for the times at a to'real board. Mara, welcome back to the argument. Thanks for having me. So help us understand particularly why the times editorial board was quite disappointed by the outcome here. Sure. So we actually weighed in. Twice. I when the deal was immediately announced saying that the deal was not a good deal. We didn't think that there was enough public input. And that Amazon didn't actually give the city enough of what it needs in terms of infrastructure and transit needs. But the decision by Amazon last week, the very abrupt decision to to pull out of New York was very disappointing. And we felt that the city was hostile and inhospitable to even having a conversation with Amazon about how to make the best deal that we could get over the next year when they were supposed to be a year long process by which the city and the state and Amazon the company would sit down, and they would hammer out the details of how to get the best out of the deal for all sides, and that never happened because there was a lot of kind of grandstanding by some local. Elected officials who felt that they had been cut out of the deal and a lot of them. Also, our our newly elected progressives. Who felt that they didn't think this really wealthy company should get these huge incentive packages in general, and they had a lot of problems with the fact that the deal was done kind of in secret behind closed doors and then presented to the public with no input. And we were sad to see twenty-five thousand jobs, go we could have had a productive conversation and that didn't happen. So I agree. There was grandstanding. And some of it was silly, right? It was basically capitalism is evil, and I agree that the twenty five thousand jobs would have helped queens, and yet I still found myself cheering this because I think this whole game in which companies hold up local governments, which is really tax payers for these subsidies. It's just terrible economic policy. It doesn't do anything to grow the economy. It just has cities. Bidding against each other. And so even if New York takes a modest hit, and it's only modest it's twenty five thousand jobs in the city that has four million jobs. I guess I think there's a larger principle here. And that's if cities are starting to get a little bit more aggressive about saying, no to companies that try to hold them up. I'm really pleased about it. And I think New York did the country a favor here. You know? I hear you. I think though that there was a projected twenty seven billion in revenue from this deal over twenty years now, even if half of that materialized that's money that we could have used as a city to pay for and address just massive infrastructure needs. We need to fix the New York City subway, we need to build housing. And I actually think that had the governor in the mayor who really brokered this deal had they along with Amazon presented this agreement along with a commitment to address the subway crisis and the housing crisis could have been for exam. I don't about let's say Amazon gives gift of half a billion for housing and half a billion for the subway. And then the governor commits to spending, you know, half of the projected twenty seven billion revenue over many years to direct it toward those issues. I think we would be having a very different conversation. But I think that not only are corporations out of touch. But I think that public officials and in this case specifically governor Cuomo, and mayor de Blasio are extremely out of touch about what people are very concerned about me. New york. New York City doesn't have a jobs problem. It has an income inequality problem. It has a wages problem. Marzel given that weren't all those people bright to be angry. Right. Because these things that you were talking about these commitment to use some of that revenue to fix the subways or to address audible housing, they weren't in the plan. And so there was obviously going to be some winners from this proposed. Title. And you're one of the things that's been interesting to me is seeing the kind of anger of some of the local public housing tenants association that, you know, wanted this planet thought there was a lot in it for them. But a lot of other people rate they had reason to believe that they were going to be priced out of their neighborhood. They'd reason to believe the subways we're going to become even more unbearable. And I think people who were maybe outside New York City one of the things I don't know how much it filters through is how the kind of complete breakdown of the reliability of subways has completely changed the texture of daily life in this city in my own neighborhood. There has been such a lack of investment in like new schools, and all sorts of civic infrastructure that you need when there's an influx of new people. You know, my son didn't get into our zone kindergarten, for example. And so people who live there have real reason to believe that they're going to be the losers from this influx of. Of really highly paid new jobs, which aren't necessarily going to them. And this is coming with no guaranteed that this money is gonna go back into the community or back into infrastructure. Yeah. I think so those are all great points. And I share a lot of those concerns to be Frank. But the process was just beginning. So those were things that we could have addressed through a state land use process over the next year to year and a half. And I think people didn't realize that because the deal was done behind closed doors in the middle of the night and was presented to the public. And then the governor essentially said here you go. Why aren't you thinking us and very quickly? It was clear that they had all everyone involved had misjudged what the tight was here. And what the concerns really are. But I have to say that my disappointment was the really gross financial illiteracy in the. City and in the state around this notion that we were giving Amazon three billion dollars as though we were going to hand them three billion dollars in cash. Even though it was, you know, a tax benefit. So people on Twitter were saying well now we can use three billion dollars to the subway. Instead, you know, and they're cheering, and that's not quite how it would have worked. Right. I don't want to overstate it. But I do think we should definitely think more as a city on state about how to be friendlier to business. But also how to negotiate with them to make sure that we're getting what we need as a state and city. There's I think there's a real fascinating parallel between sort of where a lot of especially newly elected progressive politicians are with the stuff, and where certain kind of tea party activist was on the right like eight or nine years ago. Right. Where you you have this dynamic where you have people newly elected who are making arguments effectively against crony capita. Eliza that mix a kind of sincere civic mindedness with a certain kind of economic literacy. Right. I think that was sort of present in the tea party in spades. And what's interesting is to read like I've been reading a lot of the conservative critiques of Alexandro Cossio Cortez. You know, she's always the lightning rod, but also, you know, some of the other anti-aids on politicians, and these critiques the conservatives are sort of having a field day making fun of how anti-corporate socialists, drove Amazon out of New York. But if this had been some tea party legislator who is killing some similar deal in red state. Those same conservatives would have been cheering it. And a lot of centre-left pundits would have been like, oh, look at those tea party activists in red states, or you know, they're shooting them see their own economies in the foot once again, and I don't really have a point. But I think I. Exactly. But I I think there's a little bit of strange bedfellows. And a lot of kind of interesting philosophical debates going on. But I also think something that has gotten missed by. I would say mainstream Democrats is that locally speaking a lot of the politicians in New York who came out against this deal most vociferous -ly, these are people who were actually put into office by gentrify hours by millennials by middle class and upper middle class highly educated voters who were upset about Trump. But also are, you know, oftentimes, like myself, frankly, millennials who are really drawn to big cities like New York, but who can't really afford to live there. Alexandria, Cossio Cortez is the perfect example of this. She wasn't elected by the poorest folks in her district, although some of them voted for her, but but by the gentrify, here's. And so my point is that I think that politicians have underestimated the anxiety about that group of people which is large which is growing, which is pretty powerful when they vote and those are the politicians that now represent that. I mean, the house I grew up in is in prospect heights in Brooklyn, and I could never afford to live there. It's now a bed and breakfast. Hey, it's pretty wild. So we can't afford to live in the neighborhoods or the cities that we grew up in. But it was this deep anxiety about where people are going to live who aren't rich. But who also don't live in public housing have a friend who's paying sixteen hundred dollars a month for a one bedroom in a story ah, and she was terrified of Amazon coming because she can't afford three thousand dollars a month. Which is what she figured it would be. And I don't think she's crazy. And so that kind of anxiety about affordable housing and about the subway is so real, and I think no one in the state, certainly not the governor. And the mayor have really understood the depth of that and how that affects people's lives, and that's partially because they don't ride the subway, which is another story for another time. One of the most interesting pieces that I read on this was in wired by Zachary caravel in which he argued that Amazon will live to regret this. And that if. If you look at the populist strains that we're talking about from really right center and left. These tech companies are going to have to grapple with those strains because there are a lot of frustrated people out there, and this was an opportunity to do. So and Amazon's just in the long term not gonna be able to say, oh, we might have to get our hands dirty were out of here. I agree and one of my frustrations with this initial deal is Amazon came into New York City, New York City and said we're going to offer you five million dollars for workforce development. I just found that I said, you know, a no offense to Kansas. But this is not Kansas. And I have a feeling that you want to come to New York City. Well, so does the rest of the world get a number payer full share? I think a lot of people felt that way. So I think there was a sense by some of, hey, since when do we beg people to come to New York, and that's a larger conversation that's happening nationally, but I hope that there is going to be less hand-wringing less grandstanding and more thoughtfulness about how to attract the right employers the right businesses. We don't want to treat everyone the way that we treated Amazon before the city council, we we wanna get better deals out of companies. But what does that look like? And and how do you have those conversations will more you mentioned Blasios in Cuomo, and even for people who are sympathetic to their criticisms of Amazon, it seems quite clear they didn't handle this. Well, and I do really think there's a big opportunity for politicians on both the right and the left, but particularly the left who can kind of channel the unhappiness out there. But do it in a more productive? Live and skilled way than they managed to do in this case, I think that's right. If nothing else the governor in the mayor learned some lessons here, you can't just shove these deals down people's throats will Mara. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for having me. Now, it's time for our weekly recommendation each week, we give you a recommendation that helps take your mind off the day to day headlines and this week, it's my turn to make recommendation, my recommendation is not exactly a secret because it's been the best selling book in America for the past three months. But it is Michelle Obama's memoir. More particularly it is the first half or two thirds of her memoir. The last half is interesting if you're a political junkie, but it's the kind of memoir we're used to from political figures. The first half is is really quite incredible. It's extremely honest about her marriage to her husband, Barack about them going through couples counseling, it's full of these really incredible stories, but but the main takeaway, I had was really about the power of education. We're living in this time where I think some people on both right and left her skeptical of education, and it's just really clear from this book that education is is the engine that change Michelle Obama's life. And there's one anecdote I wanna tell which is she. Was learning piano? And she was learning it on a broken piano from a piano teacher in her low income neighborhood. But for her first recital, she had to go play a non broken piano, and she sits down at the piano, and she realizes wait a second. I don't actually know how to play a non broken, piano. I only have experienced playing piano with chip keys, and I need to figure out how to play this normal piano, and the book is full of anecdotes like that that just give you a sense of what life is like in neighborhoods, like the south side of Chicago. And how people like Michelle Obama once in a while managed to overcome that, you know, I don't know why I haven't read this book yet and part of it is that it still breaks my heart every time. I contemplate kind of what we had then in the White House to what we have now that I should kind of be eager to be reminded of this. These better people in this better time, but there's something about it that I've been just like felt resistant about like reading like a memoir by your parents who died or something. And yet I hear the same thing over and over and over again, they just have to read it. And so I will it sounds really interesting. I haven't read it because I don't read any books written by politicians or in this case first ladies because I they've gotten very long and the ratio of time. It takes to read them versus what you get out of them is not not a good ratio. I'm curious if this do you think this is the exception? Like have you read a lot of other recent politicians books, David or is this sort of did you make exception for for the former first lady, I made a partial exception. The other best re I'm normally don't read them. But the other really good one. I read I know he's now somewhat discredited on both right in the left, but Tony Blair's memoirs. Fantastic. I would say that. The parts of this book that are classic political memoir are fine. And if you don't enjoy reading classic political memoir, I wouldn't encourage you to read those parts of Michelle Obama's book. I would basically encourage you to pick it up and read the parts until Obama gives his speech at the two thousand and four democratic convention. Wanna keep going great? The rest of the book is perfectly perfectly good. But the part up to there is really fantastic. And Michelle, I know what you mean. But it actually is possible for little sections to forget that until recently. This was the first lady of the United States and just kind of focus on this incredible American story that that is her life. So that's my recommendation start Michelle Obama's memoir becoming and finish it if you want to. Last week in our segment about Brexit. We present you with the three major options on Brexit. And we asked you to choose among them some of you called in and told us which one you'd pick. Here's what you had to say. Hey, my name is an I'm calling from Oregon I arm and I'm calling from Irvine, California Walsum, Nick Lynne. My name is Jerome Alexander, though, if I were written with the to hope and other folks using choice voting. When I heard I've cast I think it's clear we need to have another vote stuff exit. It is I think that second referendum is the right choice because of the guest mentioned the British people sitting on have all the necessary information about what actually president me that much. I always enjoy the show. That's our show for this week. If you have thoughts, or if you have a question or suggestion for future episode, please leave us a voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four. You can also Email us at argument as NY times dot com. If you like what you hear we'd love it. If you would leave us a rating or review in apple podcasts this week show was produced by Alex Laughlin for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is Gretta Cohn. We had help from Tyson Evans Phoebe, let yin Persad Philbrick and Francis king special. Thanks to Kaiser health news. Our theme was composed by Allison Leyton Brown and a final tip. If you want to hear more about Michelle Obama's memoir. Listen to the episode of our sister podcast still processing that is called becoming the title of Michelle Obama's book. See you next week. I mean, look Ross Michelle agree on everything. They just pretend otherwise it's actually true.

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Are Democrats Too Scared to Impeach? (LIVE from Boston)

The Argument

41:24 min | 2 years ago

Are Democrats Too Scared to Impeach? (LIVE from Boston)

"This week, we're bringing you our live show from Boston, which we taped it. WBU ours city space. We had a great time meeting. So many of you. And now we're excited to let everyone else here this conversation. I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week. We're talking climate change with a special surprise guest. Your Senator Ed Markey, he helped write the two highest profile climate proposals of the last decade. Then do election results from around the world mean that liberalism is dying and finally a recommendation. I segment and we have a special guest at Marquis, he has been in congress since the bicentennial in nineteen seventy six which means he's been serving in congress for this nation's entire third century so far. And he has been a Senator since two thousand and thirteen. We have a lot to ask him about President Trump impeachment climate change, as I mentioned, and the upcoming twenty twenty campaign. Please welcome Senator Markey. Thank you for joining us. Senator. Thank you die. So haven't me obviously one thing that's on many people's minds is President Trump and the question of what congress is going to do about it. And so we want to start there with Michelle, it's so far if I'm not mistaken. You've kind of taken the Nancy Pelosi line. And I guess what I want to ask is, how Democrats can justify at this point, you know, now that Muller has stood up and basically implored congress to do its job and kind of made clear that wasn't an ex culpa Tori report that there was evidence of obstruction of Justice that he couldn't indict, but that there is a process in the constitution to hold a president to account how do Democrats justify not beginning an impeachment inquiry. So Muller said, if we had confidence that the president clearly did not commit a crime. We would have said, so what he's saying is that after compiling that four hundred page report in, I watering detail. The they were unable to say that the president did not commit a crime and he said, at the same time that according to department of Justice policy, which I may not agree with, but their policy is that they don't indict sitting presidents, so that sends it over to the congress, and I think that it is absolutely imperative for the congress to have these hearings and the more that Donald Trump says to Donald Mcgann or the hope Hicks that he doesn't want them to testify is the more he's engaging in the kind of a cover up that would make Richard Nixon blush. And so from my perspective, we must begin immediately the hearings, and if we find that he did commit crimes, then that, in fact, does beg the question of impeachment. But isn't what you're saying. Then that what we know. So. So far. What's in the report, and what's in the SDN wise filings about individual one, the manifest evidence of emoluments violations. Are you saying that, that in itself, isn't enough because to me when I hear people say that, you know, we need to find more evidence what it suggests is that what we all know Trump has done does not sell fries levels impeachment. We'll again I think the, the evidence is piling up. And I think that we need to have the public hearing. So I think the public hearings themselves will build the case citizens is that an impeachment inquiry or now, I think that it is a set of hearings that could lead to impeachment. But we have to go through that process to ensure that the public understands what the crimes were. And why in fact, they should lead to impeachment. Can I ask if you think Robert Muller has done his part of this job adequately? And since I suspect your answer will be yes. Let me elaborate a little bit. I mean, I think one of the reasons that Democrats are in this odd position of confronting an incredibly detailed report that he clearly sees it as possibly building a case for impeachment. But you're talking about having another set of hearings as a kind of intermediate step. I mean, isn't one of the reasons for that, that Muller has ended up with this kind of bizarre double negative approach to the thing that he was supposed to investigate right? Where he's out there saying, well we didn't find him not guilty. I think what he's saying is my hands are tied. I can't do anything and I point over to another institution, the United States Congress, and I say, y'all hands are not tied. But he didn't just say that he didn't say, we think there are reasons to charge the president with obstruction but we can't do it, therefore, it's Congress's hands. He said we didn't reach a conclusion, we did not reach a conclusion. In that he did not commit a crime. Right. But it's an even. It sounds like, but he's saying that because of Justice department policy, and so he strongly suggesting that the United States Congress can look at this evidence, and that they should look at this evidence in order to make a determination as to whether or not a crime was committed. And so I think that his statement is one more nudge, push towards the congress conducting the hearings that could lead to the impeachment compete. Sements now on the table. I think all three of us are a little disappointed in this aspect of Muller's work are you satisfied with more? I can't question his deference to Justice department policy because he is a career Justice department employees. In probably a part of that dick constraints him from acting in a way, that is probably more consistent with his beliefs about what Trump did it's troubling, but still understandable. But what he's saying is this still another recourse, and that's the United States Congress and he's right about that. And we should have the hearings, and they should be the kind of hearings that tipple every rock, bringing every witness not allow Trump to engage in the kind of roadblocks that he has been trying to throw up and as long as it takes we have to go there, so that the American public knows what happened in two thousand sixteen m beyond in their name. Can you imagine a scenario where an actual impeachment process, and vote would make sense? If you were certain throughout that process that it would just die in fail in the Senate. I don't know the answer to. That anymore than I know the answer to the question of what would have happened. If Alexander Butterfield did not testify that there were actual tapes. I don't know what the reaction is going to be to any information, which is put out in the public domain, by any Republican, you want me to get inside the internal workings of the cerebral mechanisms of Republican right wing. Congressman that's hard for me to do. I'm a liberal from as Jozic's so I cannot prognosticate that far ahead. I'm whenever I speak to democratic members of congress who are against starting impeachment inquiry. They make it clear that this is kind of a purely political calculation right either. They'll say the public isn't with us yet or they fear kind of the impeachment backlash that Republicans faced after they impeach Bill Clinton or else. They'll say that, you know, we ran on lowering prescription drug prices. We didn't run an impeachment, but I feel like, although it's probably true or it is true that the polls show kind of slightly more people against impeach. Than four. It doesn't this sort of, like naked political calculation make Democrats look, sort of weaken spineless. I mean, isn't there a value in leading and showing strength, and that has electoral repercussions down the line? Again, I think we need to have two hearings and out of that set of hearings all that information being made public perhaps, even taking it twenty five pages at a time in the mullahs report, so that there's a pull understanding by the American public of what is actually in there, then I think, we're in a position to make a determination in another month or two or three from now, after we've done it in an exhaustive and thorough way. But in a way that has fantas attached to it as well in terms of how these hearings were conducted. I think that's a big part of what happened with Watergate, and I think that's a big part of what didn't happen with the Clinton impeachment, and so it has to be done correctly. Ultimately, if it's going to have the credibility to then make a recommendation to in fact, impeach a sitting president of the United States of America two-thirds of the American people did not want Bill Clinton to be impeached. Right from the get-go, and it never change. They never thought that that quote unquote, high crime a misdemeanor that he was charged with actually was a high crime a misdemeanor. And so the public was saying that the whole way and they lost seats here. This is a potential high crime, that was committed and is no one who's doubting that even on the Republican side. This interference by the Russians is something that's quite a serious, and anyone who engaged in obstruction of that investigation they would be engaging in a crime. So to the extent to which the American public actually does believe that and they do right now. It's imperative for us to lay it all out. Have that case v made in a very definitive way then reach that conclusion as to whether or not it was impeachable. And whether or not we should take that step. So turn to climate at the New York Times, they're all these warnings against using the word. Unique people often use the word unique, when they mean unusual, but I think I'm on safe ground here. The copy editing. God's will not smart me down for saying you are in a unique position here. Your your journey on this has been fascinating. You have had your name on each of the two big climate policies of the last decade. So you are obviously the Marquis, and Waxman, Markey the cap and trade Bill in the Obama administration. That was very ambitious, but was also seen as somewhat moderate and technocratic. And now, you are the partner of Alexandria Oko Cortez on the green new deal, which many people see is radical. Can you talk to us about your own journey, and how you see these two pieces consistent, but also what ways in which you've changed your mind or how you think a different approach is better today than in two thousand nine I had authored from the health side. The fuel economy standard lower in two thousand and seven which President Obama used to increase fuel economy standards to fifty four point five miles per gallon, along with the California waiver, I was the author of the appliance efficiency laws that increased dramatically the, the efficiency of air conditioning and refrigeration in America. So I had worked in these areas before him. But when Obama won he said, did climate was one of his top three or four issues, Henry Waxman, and I had sat next to each other for years. We were the two most powerful Democrats on environment in the congress. So we decided to move and to move quickly in January of two thousand nine and we produce the Waxman, Markey Bill on June twenty six two thousand and nine which was in eighty three percent reduction in greenhouse gases by the year, twenty fifty it was considered a radical by the Republicans, but we were endorsed by the Edison electric institute by labor unions by every environmental group. In America, and we passed it to nine thousand nine to twelve Obama said he would sign it and it fell shot in the Senate. So it's ten years later, we're heading up to June. Twenty six twenty nine thousand nine tenth year anniversary of Waxman Markey. And I've come to the conclusion that we didn't have a huge public movement behind us. Ten years ago, but we had the inside political power now, Trump is president to denier and chief actually sits in the Oval Office. He's named a coal lobbyist run the EPA. He's named an oil love. Yes to run the department of interior. He's pulled out of the Paris agreement. He's pulled back from the fuel economy standards. He's pullback from the clean power plan for utilities and what he's done is he's created an emergency, which the United Nations says is an existential threat to our country in all of his scientists all thirteen agencies said could lead to a nine degree. Fahrenheit warming of the planet by the year twenty one hundred and so the green new deal is not just a resolution. It's a revolution. And young people millennials, this is the issue. That's their top issue, and so- congresswoman Alexandria. Oh, Cossio Cortez. And I introduced the green new deal in the first week of February. Now what's happened in fourteen weeks? It's no catapulted itself up to the very top of the issues that Democrats across the country want to have dealt with along with healthcare, and the economy. We never had that before, climate was never a top tier issue, something people cared about what it was much lower. And they are insisting that be a plan that is put together to deal with it. Every candidate now has a plan. There are calls now to have a separate climate debate amongst all Democrats. So we can lay out the plants and while Republicans might think that they're going to do a reverse take down on this issue. All I can tell you is be careful because the, the millennials who are Republicans, actually believe in climate science. So there's a split that's breaking open even within their own party. And I think it's something that is going to have very sharp political edges in twenty twenty and I believe we need the movement to get back to a point where we can legislate, as we did in two thousand nine I see a question on your face. It's less a question than as light redistribution. Maybe. But it seems like I think David was getting it this a little bit that the theory of Waxman Markey, as you said, there was lots of Republican opposition in there, obviously was that was what doomed it? But it came at a moment when prior to the financial crisis prior to two thousand and eight there had been a certain amount of elite, Republican support for. A cap and trade carbon tax kind of approach, you had John. Mccain, supporting it at least notionally you had Newt Gingrich famously sharing a couch with Nancy Pelosi advertisements series about climate change. And I think there was a sense at that moment that it was possible to have a kind of center, left meet center, right response to climate change, and that failed. And now it seems like the political theory is grassroots mobilization from the left that eventually pulls the center along. So it's a different approach. And I guess, to bring that redistribution to a question part of that different approach has been an attempt to essentially wrap the entire progressive agenda in to climate policy. Right. I mean, the green new deal insists that basically everything on the democratic wishlist from minimum wage laws to Medicare for all. And so on is all part of the. Response to climate change. How do you see that playing as a political matter? Well, there was a coke brother study of degree new deal that came out and said, oh, it's Medicare for all. Oh, it's free college education. Oh, it's going to cost ninety three trillion dollars, of course. Medicare for all is not in the green new deal. And neither is free college education in degree, nude not in there not mentioned. But the Republicans have done a very good job in trying to characterize it that way, but it's not actually in the green new deal. So we call for a mobilization heading towards one hundred percent clean renewable energy. We call for massive job creation. We call for ensuring that marginalized communities communities of color included in this new deal in a way that they weren't in the first new deal. And what we did was we took Franklin Delano Roosevelt's nine thousand nine hundred eighty four state of the union address where he laid. Out a second Bill of rights in this is the language that he used in this is the language. We use that everyone is entitled to health care, everyone's entitled to a good education. Everyone's entitled to good job, everyone's entitled to a living wage that they can take care of their families, and even take them on vacation. Right. Right. That's bigger than Medicare for all. Yes. Everyone does have a right to healthcare in a job and a good education, but we don't call for prescriptively what the policies are going to be to accomplish those goals other than that, that has to be the goal for our country and it should be the goal for our country. Can you see something in response to you really quick? Absolutely. Wait. So we're going to talk in a minute about the rumored death of liberalism around the world, right? And one of the examples of that, that you Rosner colleague Brad Stevens. Sometimes give for this is how embattled Emmanuel Macron is in France. You have these yellow vest protests in part, because people are very angry about these new carbon taxes, but part of the reason that people are so angry about these new carbon taxes, because they haven't been offset by other new social spending. Right. So if you were going to kind of demand that people, make the sorts of sacrifices that, I think most people who studied this issue believe are necessary to kind of decarbonised economy, then it is politically impossible, as you yourself, acknowledge when you talk about how Macron is failing, if you don't backstop it with new social programs. So two points. I mean, the first is that, that larger question is another example of how the political climate has changed since Waxman Markey. Right. That. In two thousand and eight it was possible to say that the US was this outlier in global politics in terms of having like actual political opposition to climate change legislation, and as we see in Europe and Australia, that's no longer the case. So that's another big shift. You know, one of the things that I've said favorably about the green new deal. Right. Is that there is a side of it? That is more plausible more politically plausible than just doing a carbon tax and figuring out some complicated rebate scheme. So it doesn't necessarily fall, too heavily on the working class. I think the side of the green new deal that is sort of plausible is the accent, which suggests a kind of populist center for climate change action where you basically say, we're not going to tax you. We're just going to spend hell of a lot of money on research, mitigation, clean energy transformation, and so on. And we're going to figure out a way to spend it in red states and make it sort of jobs. Graham for the heartland, and all of that kind of stuff and I'd be like that, at least points to a different center. But I don't think you can get there. And again, I'm curious what the Senator thinks if it's just seen as full. Oh. Cossio courtesan socialism, on the March, right socialism, on the March social democracy island. By the way, it's been a caricature. It's just terrorists. Your hand along hundred year March from the first day that the oil companies one hundred years ago, got their tax breaks from the congress. Okay. And for one hundred years, but on the long March all companies gas companies coal companies nuclear companies huge subsidies from the federal government, then we show up and we say how about permanent tax breaks for wind. For solar for battery storage technologies all electric. Vehicles, roll electric buildings and they say socialism, and so what we say is, hey. Socialism. We'll show you how to make capitalism work. We see an existential threat to the planet from climate change the words of the UN they see an existential threat to the business model of the oil gas and coal industry gate. That's all it is. Give us the same breaks k keep the fuel economy standards on the books and increase them increase the building officiency standards for our country the way I did with appliances. Okay. Watch what happens I will move in within five to ten years and cut the cost of actually having to construct a new building that has forty fifty sixty percent less energy that is being consumed. Let's create a capitalistic marketplace through the policies, which just say to the private sector, we're getting out of the way now and I am the author of most of the telecom lost the nineteen Ninety-six communications act. I unleash that I'm the democratic author of that a trillion and a half dollars a private. Sector cash went into that, that created a dotcom bubble but it created a broadband revolution. The same thing is true over here. If we create the correct tax and regulatory policies it's going to be, ultimately a bonanza for private sector companies to say, look at that wind solar automotive building agricultural sector, that we can now move into and completely overhauled. It's been stopped for generation. But don't you think that honestly, if we get that kind of strong AI and you tell it to solve climate change? It'll just exterminate us all Terminator style, aren't you concerned about that, there can I say this, there is a sinister side too? You know, there's a Dickensian quality to all of these technologies that can enable an noble or degrade in the base. And if we're not careful you know, we're not going to actually put in place to protections against sinister side of. Join thank you. Thanks. Hi, I'm Sam sifting founding editor of NY cooking. And we're in my kitchen right now where I'm making dinner, one of the great things about testing recipes our selves, is that we do a lot in home kitchens. Cooking a home kitchen means cooking in the same kind of kitchen. Our users cooking using restaurant. Stoves we're using rental apartments, stoves and family stoves. And that's really important when you're doing the kind of work that I do which involves talking to a lot of chefs about the food that they prepare and then trying to figure out how to make that food, tastes the way it does in the restaurant. But at home using methods of the home cook and recipes for the home cooked to be written differently. Come. See us at cooking dot com. Sign up for newsletter. Start saving recipes and above all cook with us. I think you'll find it worth you want. That's a great sound at the end. The smells good too. In India, the populist, nationalist, prime minister Rendra Mody has just won reelection in a route in Australia. The conservative prime minister defied the polls and one reelection in Europe far right? Parties made gains winning the most votes in both Britain, and Italy. And here in the United States, Donald Trump is enjoying a decent few months. The mullahs report wasn't as bad for him as expected, and the economy is chugging along our times, colleague Brad Stevens. One of Ross's, fellow conservatives recently summed up all of these developments in a column headlined, how Trump wins next year so Ross, what is going on here. I'm not going to channel Brett exactly. Because brat wrote a column arguing that these global development portended Trump reelection and I'm a little more skeptical of that. But I think that they're suggestive. Of something that goes to something we've debated a lot on the show, which is the question of how unfair is it that liberalism is basically out of power in America right now. Obviously, the electoral college, help Republicans in the last election. And we've debated at length, the possibly anti-democratic character of the supreme court, and there's this larger narrative in especially elite liberalism, but not only liberalism right now that the Republican majority is not really majority, that there is this sort of, you know, this tacit democratic majorities majority. Right. Well, it's a majority of the Senate and house, but it's not a majority of the people. That's right. That's the point right? Yes. That's, that's the argument. And what I was suggesting was that? It's obviously true that the Republican party in the US has benefited from these sort of counter majoritarian setups in the last couple years. But the fact that populace and nationalists, are doing well comprehensively in Europe and Australia. And also in the very different, but related landscapes of India, and Brazil, and elsewhere suggests the possibility that in effect. Donald Trump is kind of propping American liberalism up in this weird way. That, yes, he's benefited from the electoral college, and all these things, but liberalism has benefited from the fact that populism in the US is embodied by a figure like Trump, who's a cartoonish character who can't seem to do outreach can't seem to build beyond his base, and that we have examples all over the world now of populist, nationalist political figures, who see more successful than Trump, who seem capable of winning without the electoral college without Fox News and all these things, and that suggests that there's this very potent what I think of as a kind of right wing blocking coalition against liberalism, that doesn't have a clear governing agenda of its own, but it's very clear that it's against liberalism. And that liberals in the US are lucky that, that coalition. In this country is led by Trump instead of an American Netanyahu. So that was my attempt at a provocation that you guys can now be provoked by, so it's too bad that the Brett isn't here because his column was the one that made me like truly up aplastic, because the argument is basically that kind of right wing populism is on the March and liberals haven't been able to stop it, because they are too radical because they haven't embraced centrists, like Bill Clinton or Tony, Blair. And I think the evidence from around the world shows that that is not the case. Right. If you look India's a country where I've spent a lot of time, not recently, but in the past, I mean, it's just it's crazy to think that the reaction against the Gandhi family, which is the descendants of our whole never the kind of founding political family of that country. Right. The Pitta me of that establishment to imagine. That their sin was land of left-wing overreach as opposed to establish -ment sclerosis. And so I do think that there is this crisis of liberalism, all over the world. Personally terrifying to me, you know, I look around sometimes I don't know if if you watch man in the high castle, but it sometimes feels like that. Right. We're like the I roll play it the. The. But Nevertheless, I also think that the places where there has been successful pushback to this. One of the reasons why I've become a lot more grateful for people to my left is because there's a reason why people using the phrase, socialism or barbarism, right? That the people who've been successful in pushing back against this wave are insurgent socialists with emission, right? So Spain has so far held off this wave. It's patchy, but the evidence so far suggests not that the way to stem the tide of this roiling disaffection with mcgarity, which is clearly very real. And this like roiling rage about inequality, the way to do that is not to sort of, like triangulate around the party of votes, but is to meet it with some sort of, and I don't think we quite know what. What this looks like. And as I say this, I'm going to say that Britain is a counter example of left-wing populism, that's failed. But some sort of modern left wing populism. Roiling discontent with modernity, by the way, was that of my that was my stop and high school. I realized that I've spent a lot of time talking about what I think are the tactical mistakes that progressivism has made in his making, but I don't know what you think the Tacoma sticks, so you just got close to it. But I'm curious what do you think in this country coming back to this country? What do you think the Democratic Party should do differently over the next few years than it's done over the last few years to do better politically, I don't know about tactics, but I'd say, like, in terms of broad orientated, and I think that the kind of generation of Democrats before this one were traumatized by series of elections, in which they felt like they ran candidates like McGovern and then were eviscerated in the lesson. They took from that was that you have to pivot to the center, and the way that they interpreted pivoting to the center in this also it's something to do with the decline of union power into sort of needing new sources of campaign cash, but they defined pivoting to the center as kind of pivoting to the. Center on economics. Right is becoming more economically conservative, as becoming more hostile to the welfare state more indulgent of finance, capitalism, more indulgent of a sturdy and to me that was the mistake because I think that there is a type of person who exists in New York and Washington, maybe in Boston almost nowhere else who's like socially liberal, and economically conservative. And they have an outsized impact on political discussion. But if you look at polling they're almost non-existent in the populace at large. And so I think that if the Democratic Party had been listening to your other Senator Elizabeth Warren back when she was talking about the horrors of the bankruptcy, Bill back when she was warning about the imminent financial crisis. The party would be in much better shape. So I think that's actually an issue where the three of us tend to be on the same page whatever. Our view. Use of where either party should go. We have a shared sense that the sort of Blairite neoliberal model, whatever it's possible virtues in the past doesn't work at the current moment. There's, there's a sense in which clearly, there has to be some different coalition forces in liberalism in order to respond to this kind of backlash against liberal governance. Right. And that could mean moving left on certain issues. Right. It could mean moving well to the left. But if it means moving to the left on everything it's not likely to work, and I think my, my frustration and of course, I'm a conservative. So I don't really wish liberalism. Well, so maybe it's not a frustration. But Mike, pseudo frustration with liberalism at this moment, is that it was encapsulated by the questions that I asked David to ask, when we had him as a guest on the argument, which was basically Buddha's edge has pitched his. Campaign as hi. I'm a guy from the heartland who went to the coasts and became a coastal person. But then went back to the mid west and became a mid westerner again. And I'm going to build these bridges between Trump voters and the boss wash. Elite and David says, well are there any cultural issues ranging from, you know, bakers baking cakes for same sex? Weddings to guns to immigration. Is there anything where you can see room for compromise with cultural conservatives and his answer was, basically? No, because either the principle at stake is too big or the country agrees with us already and that can't be Liberalism's answer on everything. Right. Like, if climate change is the existentialist threat of our time. Why are you spending your time trying to close down Catholic adoption agencies because they don't wanna place kids when same sex, couples alternatively, if crushing social, conservatism and destroying Gilead. And whatever case you wanna make their if that's the central purpose of liberalism. Then you may be. Can't also do the green new deal. But no, liberal conceives their purpose as crushing social conservatism. Right. I mean, that's the sort of Leno liberal. I mean except me, but. Completely false choice. Right. Just as I could never say to you. You know, if you actually think that abortion is murder. Why are you spending your time on any other kind of economic or foreign policy issue? You're spending, all of your time outside of abortion clinics. Obviously, people are going to address a host of different problems. But I would I will say, I would happily sell out my fellow conservatives on sixteen other issues. If doing so would persuade you Michelle Goldberg to support even third trimester abortion restrictions. But do you actually think that saying that, like, okay we're going to let you government funded adoption agencies refused to place children with gay couples and Jews and Muslims for that matter because that's also part of the package? Do you actually think that kind of allowing that, even if it were good tactically DEA is going to make conservatives more likely to join a coalition on global warming? And because from where I sit it seems like when you. Give the right an inch. They take a mile speaking, only for cultural conservatives, I don't think the sense among cultural conservatives is that we've been taking any miles lately, although obviously that sort of changed with the sense of the supreme court, having shifted and you've gotten these efforts on abortion in the south, but in general the dominant mood among cultural conservatives in the last ten years has been sort of a panic sense that cultural liberalism now gets to do whatever it wants. And I don't think I don't say the activists are going to suddenly start voting democratic I think the way that political coalitions move inspires mobilization in response. And right now liberalism inspires, mobilization among a lot of different groups that add up at present across the developed world and the developing world to a pretty strong anti liberal coalition. And you at least have to figure out how to d mobilize some portion of this conservative coalition for lib. Eliza to be able to govern. But just looking internationally I think, just shows the extent to which it's not about, you know, sort of parochial, American culture wars shoes. Right. I've come more and more around the way of thinking of Corey, Robin, who's a professor. Who basically talks about conservatism is simply anti-liberalism, right. It's not it's own coherent philosophy. It's just a movement against the gains of the left. And I think that when you look around the world that has a lot of credence, right? Because they're not fighting about abortion in India, all of these different issues. They're fighting about kind of Hindu identity, and this myth that there's some kind of what they call the love t hod that Muslims are trying to marry Hindu women and take them away from their culture. I don't see any sense if you look around the world that if whoever you take to be liberals and each of these different societies said, I'm willing to compromise with you, that it would be demobilizing. To these nationalist coalitions that are on the March. And in part, I think it's because this sense of aggrieved victimhood, which is common to all of them is not rooted in anything real. I mean it's except for the back Catholic adoption agency, or Jewish family wants to adopt a baby and the only one in your town doesn't want to give it to you, because you have the religion. But this sense of kind of singular agreement right, that you just said that liberals have everything, and they're just going to kind of run roughshod over us because all we've got is the presidency, the Senate. This court is. It's a license for them, I think, to kind of do anything because when you're cornered any measure justified, but a I don't think it's legitimate, and I don't think it just seems silly to kind of ask liberals to treat it as if it's legitimate, and therefore to sign kind of indulge it in the hopes that they will then become a little less panicked. And defensive and a little more willing to work on some sort of common purpose. I think we're all set earlier is right. I do think even though we we're in very different places in the world. We wanna see. I think all of us, share this sense that the notion of where the American Center is has been wrong in a lot of elite discussion, and I would encourage all of you, if you disagree with that to kind of take a look at polls, because it really is true that this notion that Michelle was talking about of the economic of the social liberal, economic conservative is a phenomenon of Brookline. Or scarsdale or or San Mateo. And it really the social conservatives and economic progressives are much more common in the United States than the flip. So each week we give you a recommendation to end the show, something to take your mind off of politics and something to get the three of us to stop fighting with each other. And this week is my turn. My recommendation is to retain your regional loyalty from childhood, no matter how thin a string of loyalty it is, I lived in Boston from, when I was two to when I was eight otherwise I'm New Yorker. I was born there in the third generation New Yorker but those are the formative years for sports. And so I adopted the Boston sports teams all of them. And then went back to New York and spent the nineteen eighties completely miserable. With the one exception of the Boston Celtics, I had to go to high school in New York City, the day after game six of the nineteen Eighty-six World Series. I endured all kinds of misery and it was all worth it in the end because no city in modern times has enjoyed a run like Boston is now enjoying the Bruins are now in the Stanley Cup finals. And so, even if you're not a sports fan, even if it's just keeping a little bit of the foods of a place where you lived for a few years, or it's remembering a hiking trail, in a place where you were I strongly recommend this, because being a kid is really fun. And having any reason to be reminded of that you once for six, and you are not always forty six is a wonderful thing. So that is my recommendation. Sort of shameless of peel sympathies. Don't don't you think? That's our show for this week. Thank you. Senator Markey for joining us. And thank you to all of you, tonight's show is produced by Alex, Laughlin and edited by lacy Roberts for transmitter media. We had help from Phoebe, let, Ian Persad, Philbrick, Winton Wong and Tyson Evans. Our executive producer is Gretta Cohn. Our music, which you're listening to now is, by Allison Leyton Brown. Thank you, WB are for hosting us and to all of you for joining. Obviously, the dream of all social conservatives is a return to a climate of perfect chastity.

United States Congress Donald Trump Senator Ed Markey United States president Senate David Leonhardt Boston Bill Clinton Robert Muller Senator Michelle Goldberg Nancy Pelosi Michelle India Medicare New York City
Is the Green New Deal a Leftist Fantasy?

The Argument

39:35 min | 2 years ago

Is the Green New Deal a Leftist Fantasy?

"I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm David Leonhardt. I'm Rostow it. And this is the argument this week. There's the green new deal symbolized future of the Democratic Party. Or is it just left this ovary? You can't promise everything and expect to be taken seriously. Then the Brexit deadline is looming. What should England do David Britain is independent? I'm sorry to interject and finally a recommendation, the love child of Andrew dice clay in the little girl from brave, and that's actually. The green new deal the hot policy topic of the moment is a measure drafted by Representative Alexandria, Cossio Cortes, and Senator Edward Markey. That proposes a grand strategy to combat climate change while creating jobs in the US. This really is is an organizing play. It includes a ten year commitment to convert one hundred percent of the power demand in the US to clean renewable zero emission energy sources to upgrade all existing buildings to meet energy efficiency requirements and to expand high-speed rail. It also includes a lot of other commitments to universal healthcare a living wage even a job guarantee that don't usually get described as green which has critics of the measure calling it leftist overreach. Socialism disguised as climate reform. David sitting this conversation out he'll be back in the second segment. Our colleague Michelle Cottle is joining us from DC. Hey, michelle. Hello ross. So Michelle G. I'm fascinated by the green new deal, and what it means for the Democrats, but you're closer to the issue than I am. What's your impression? It's sort of a stonking that the green new deal in this incarnation has gone from something talked about, you know, among a small group of democratic socialists in New York to something that most of the democratic candidates for president have now signed onto the proposal is based it's a combination. Like, you know, as a lot of people have said, it's a combination of you know, kind of climate mitigation and social democracy. And when I've talked to people who are close to Alexandria, Cossio Cortazar close to some of the organizations that have mobilized behind the green new deal they make a couple of different arguments. One argument is that if you're talking about a fundamental restructuring of the economy, which they are then you need to give people. A safety net. Right. That there's going to be losers. If you're talking about transforming whole industries and the way that you make that palatable for people is to make sure that there are good jobs, and that they're not going to lose their health care in the process of changing jobs. And so so they will argue that this is actually that these things actually go together the other argument, which I think goes to the scope of their emission is that I think that they intuited that essentially the Aira of Reagan has come to an end that the set of a sump shins that have governed American politics since Ronald Reagan have now played themselves out, and that we're on the cusp of something new and that there's an opportunity to chart the horizon of what that would be right that there's like an opportunity to sort of chart fil like ideological umbrella under which we're all going to be operating. In going forward. And so, you know, I think that if you see it that way, then it makes sense to really go big and to have the sort of grand mission statement for what you want the organizing values of your society to be. Yeah. I mean, I'm genuinely fascinated by the politics of this. Because it seems to me that this bears some resemblance to some of the sort of more radical ideas that tend to float around in Republican party politics during primary campaigns. And so on those ideas are usually more like a flat tax or nine nine nine or, you know, we're going to abolish six cabinet agencies and so on, but what's what's striking to me is how fast we've gone from having this conceived of by basically, the socialist flank of the Democratic Party to having a blueprint that is a much more aggressive version of the sort of centrist green new deals. Ideas that someone like our colleague, Tom Friedman with champion joined to pitch for social democracy, and all the democratic presidential candidates are signing onto it. You have most of the prominent people running for the democratic nomination feeling like this is something they have to get on board with right? Although I I sort of think that they are signing on to the green new deal in theory as opposed to signing onto all the specifics. Right. I mean, Michael Bloomberg. Should he run is going to champion something that he's going to call a green new deal? But that is probably pretty different, you know, in the actual meat of it than what they've proposed here. And so I'm not sure that everyone who says yes, I support a green new deal necessarily supports all the components of this particular nonbinding resolution. No, I think I think that's fair. But there still is no sense. There's no felt sense that like this is an opportunity to distance yourself from the wackier ideas of the left or anything like that all of the pressure at the moment is to say that even if you have doubts. About the details. Your four something like this. And Michelle see I'm curious like Nancy Pelosi in much-quoted remark referred to the green new deal as the green dream, or whatever they call it which was interpreted by some people as suggesting that she wanted to keep a certain distance. And I'm wondering if is there a part of the Democratic Party right now that is really worried that they're being dragged too far to the left. I don't know that they're worried yet that they're being too. There's a lot of skepticism. And I think the speaker has been pretty clear that she is aiming to keep anybody from running amok. I mean, not only did she make the comment about the green dream in. She had not given the special climate change committee subpoena power or task them with hammering out a green new dream. She has been talking in her best grandmother voice about how much she likes the enthusiasm behind the plan, which is about as patronizing as you can sound that said she knows that she's got this new enthusiastic cohorts to contend with. And she is not looking to kind of go head to head so much. You know, I think that there's there's a disjunction here between what is necessary. And what is possible that makes in some ways sort of both sides of the debate seem irrational, right? I mean, it's it's true that what Okaz you Cortez. Another people are proposing, you know, under current circumstances is not going to happen. And would we would need like huge political change to actually get this or anything close to it done? I think it's also true that if you really take the scale of the problem seriously, I just finished a book by David Wallace wells, called the uninhabitable earth, which is about what climate change is gonna mean for people in society in the coming decades. And I just don't know how anybody could read that. And that and kind of not feel a sense of alarm, and a sense that everything possible needs to be done to keep us from going to some of the upper estimates of what global warming could. Look like, and so in that sense, the thing you would say about the green deal is maybe that it's not ambitious enough that you know, there's things that it should include that it doesn't. But I actually think that kind of nothing that mainstream Democrats are going to aren't gonna roll their eyes at because they understand the limits of the political system is going to be sufficient to the crisis. Yeah. One of the things that when you're talking to democratic skeptics, and I wanna make that distinction between the climate deniers or what we're talking about more, centrist Democrats. And I understand the argument that if you're gonna make these huge economic changes, you need to provide security sense of safety net on the other hand, these Democrats are like you can't promise everything and expect to be taken seriously as a blueprint for actual action. Now, you can treat it like vision statement, you can treat it as a wishlist you're sitting around fantasizing with your friends about what the Democratic Party should be. But this is a green new deal and people are focusing on the green part, but really it talks about promoting social Justice talks about in family of retirement security, healthcare. It's throwing everything in there. But the kitchen sink that is not a plan. That is a vision statement that you then have to pick apart and work with, but it's also going to get your made fun off. And no one's gonna take it seriously as a legislative kind of forty gonna take it seriously. I mean, obviously a lot of people are taking it seriously. Right. I mean, and that's why so many people are signing onto it. And I don't not not politically. Well, I mean, the people who are rushing to co-sponsor at are taking it politically seriously than even if they don't think that this is going to be sort of enacted, as you know, as a grand legislative package in the next couple of years, but it is a roadmap to the sword of laws that the new generation of Democrats would like to enact if and when they take power. Sure. And if you talk to some Democrats, they're betting that the people who've signed on haven't read the thing that they have of them have no idea what's in there. So I think it hasn't reached the point yet where anybody has drilled down. It is more a question of not necessarily virtue, signaling. But it is definitely a we know that we need to stand for something, and we kind of generally agree with this direction. But now we need to work to make this more. I dunno concrete, maybe, but I mean, part of what's fascinating too. Is that the political assumptions under girding, it our assumptions that the goal for Democrats is basically two on climate is not to find something that could someday get Republican votes. But to basically win big enough in some hopefully near future election that you can start passing things with sixty but say sixty votes or a post filibuster. Landscape where you have this full tilt progressive majority. But I mean so much of climate policy in the US and in most of the developed world has been built around the idea of getting right of center parties to buy in to carbon taxes and to sort of have that be the kind of technocratic solution and the the green new deal is not enthusiastic about carbon taxes. Particularly it sort of says, well, you know, that approaches might be fine. But really we wanna just spend as much money as possible to sort of throw money at this problem, and that that is a big strategic shift for the climate debate. Right. So I think underlying that shift, and you know, I mean, I would I think it's a mistake to not talk about carbon taxes. It's a mistake to tie the green new deal. I believe to you know, what they call modern monetary theory. Right. This theory that you can sort of spend unlimited amounts in your own currency absent catastrophic inflation, but when I talked to people who like I'm thinking about this conversation. I had with shun- Michael we who's this really significant figure in the new left. He founded a group called data for progress that poll tests, a lot of these ideas. And what he said is something like our argument is with the left because the Republican party is so unreasonable. You can't talk to them. They're sort of nothing for us to debate. They're not gonna sign onto anything. So it's kind of a fool's errand to try to craft something that would appeal to them. And I actually think that the legislative history of the last few years suggest that that's the case. Do you think Michelle see that? There are Democrats who who are sort of on the center left who care about this issue who imagined themselves working with Republicans on it at some point in the near future. I think always especially in the Senate, you're dealing with people who think in terms of compromise or the best deal possible. I mean politics is the art of the possible on some level. So what the green? Deal strikes me as trying to do is pull the Democratic Party in a similar way. The tea party pulled the Republican party to the right? This is trying to make sure that the Democratic Party doesn't, you know, just kind of get swept along too much toward the center of the right? And it's reminding them that they have progressive values, and they need to kind of come back on a lot of these issues toward the left and Michelle G as someone who is a little older than some of the progressives working on this right now and who bears more battle scars from you know, the long wars with conservatives does their confidence. Make you nervous. You know, the thing that makes me nervous as their confidence that like people agree with us in polls. Right that people agree with all sorts of social democratic proposals. When they're freeze to certainly in polls. And you know, my experience in politics is like many years of like vastly overestimating the degree to which the American people agree with us. But what? So this is to me. I mean, you said something slightly dismissive about modern monetary theory. And how that's the weakest part of the plan. And to me is an observer that you know, that's a very risky part of the plan. But politically, it's actually certain ways the least crazy park, right? Which is you know, that was my and that and they're smart, right? It's sort of centrist fantasy that carbon taxes are practical in a way that some of these proposals our pie to see carbon taxes as practical and to see some of these proposals as pie in the sky. I'm not sure that that actually matches the political reality. No, I don't think it does. At all. I mean, I I think basically the green new deal says in order to get people to buy into this. We're not we're gonna tell them. It's not gonna cost them that much. You know, we're gonna put it on the credit card, and we hope we basically spend our way to energy breakthrough before the inflation spiral hits. And I I don't know if that's any crazy right now to be fair. What we have learned from the Republican party in the last couple of years. Is that deficits don't matter. Right. You can do whatever you want and cut taxes as much you want and spend whatever you want, and nobody really cares at least they certainly don't these days for the most part. They're also they're also correct in surmising that the cost of climate change itself is going to be astronomical. But it's a cost paid out across decades and decades in a society that at least we hope will be steadily richer and richer than it is today. Whereas the green new deal is basically saying we're gonna take this tremendous economic gamble upfront right now, you know, with this sort of, you know, I I won't call it a Soviet style. Ow ten year plan, but it's a ten year plan. You know, you know, on the assumption that that upfront cost will be less than this sort of distributed cost over time. So what you have to worry about here is how to balance the use of this. As one democrat noted as an organizing tool or a vision statement, or whatever with the real politic situation of at what point do you disappoint your base because you haven't managed in ten years to solve everything from the oppression of indigenous people to family leave to healthcare, and you wind up with a fairly bitter left on the on the just assumption that they kind of thought more was going to happen. I don't know. I sort of think that the left will be more bitter. If they feel like they're leaders didn't even try. Yeah. I do think that conversation needs to be started about what does the Democratic Party? Dan for. I mean, this is a problem they had with the Hillary Clinton campaign. So I do think as far as like a new vision for what the Democrats stand for that that conversation needs to be started are the Democrats where conservatives were in nineteen Seventy-nine where they're sort of poised to have their own ideological revolution that will reshape things for a long time in this new deal is part of it. Or are they wear Republican tea party Republicans were in two thousand ten where they thought they were poised avenue ideological revolution. And there were so many structural roadblocks in American politics that it just all came to grief. I mean, I think that they are. I mean, I like to think that they are where the where the conservative movement was in nineteen seventy nine, and I feel like in some ways the revolution is going to happen. Just sort of demographically, right? I mean millennials who are much more both diverse and left wing than any generation before them are going to be. I believe the biggest. Voting block in twenty twenty and then kind of more politically significant going forward, and then they're followed by generation that's as left wing as they are. And so that political transformation I know that the Democratic Party can be over reliant on demographics. But nonetheless, you know, the young people are going to replace us. Michelle see is our as our honored guest. I wanna give you the last word to what extent is Alexandria, Cossio Cortez, really setting the agenda for camera Harris, Elizabeth Warren, Cory Booker. And so on right now, I think this is kind of a discussion that's going to happen early in the primaries. It will not be in the weeds enough for it to to be a real issue. But of course, climate change is going to be an issue, social Justice and economic fairness so in general, it will be I just don't think that it's going to take center stage. Okay. I'm just curious about when it fully becomes a O C's party because I'm. Just as an observer really excited for that moment. So this was this was a lot of fun. Michelle. Do you want to stick around through and just through the Brexit segment and come back for our recommendation? Absolutely. That'd be great. Thanks and tastic. All right. We're gonna take a quick break now. And when we come back David is going to MC a debate about the future of the United Kingdom. This is Debbie Allen crossword columnist for the New York Times some of the times crossword is like entering another world where your mind can stretch its legs. The wordplay column has your back if you need some help and soon you'll want to solve everyday start a puzzle over breakfast and finish it by bedtime. It's everything a habit should be fun relaxing and able to go anywhere with you. Download the app or star playing online at NY times dot com slash solve to experience life in the grid. Brexit. You've seen a lot of headlines about Britain's plans to leave the European Union bricks, Brexit, Brexit, Brexit Brexit, but I'm gonna go out on a limb. And guess you haven't read very many of those stories. Exit seems complicated and repetitive. And if you're an American it can feel very far away, but I've become fascinated by Brexit, and I wanna share my fascination with you during the segment because Brexit is not actually that complicated, and what will happen over the next month or two will shape the future of Britain of Europe. And of the western world today that we're going to have a debate about Brexit, and we're gonna ask you to make your own decision. If you were Britain. What would you do before we get into all of that? Let me give you the basics. In two thousand and sixteen the British public voted to leave the European Union trading zone, which is known as the EU. This means that the UK has voted to leave the European Union. But the ballot initiative didn't get into the details of how to leave. And now neither the British parliament, nor the British people can agree on those details there are three options for what will come next option. One is known as hard Brexit, and it's what will happen if parliament doesn't do anything else over the next few weeks Britain will just leave the EU come March twenty ninth its agreements with Europe on travel food shipping. You name it will be cancelled option. Two is the middle ground or soft Brexit? This is the one that Theresa May the prime minister has been pushing Britain would leave the EU, but it would still abide by some of Europe's rules and still get some of the benefits. The trouble is option. Two is too soft for people who support hard Brexit. And it's. Way too much for the nearly half of Britain that voted against leaving in the first place option. Three is a do over its to hold another vote. This action has some obvious problems. It would essentially nullify vote by the British people, but advocates for a revote say that people didn't realize what Brexit really was when they voted for it back in two thousand and sixteen they should have another chance to vote now that they do understand so three options and Britain must choose only. One today, I'm joined by two excellent guests to help you decide. One is Steve Hilton. He used to be a top adviser to David Cameron. The British Prime minister who set Brexit and motion. Steve now lives in the US and has written a book called positive populism. He favors hard Brexit. The other is my colleague Roger Cohen an opinion columnist and former foreign editor of the times he recently wrote an impassioned case for a revote. Stephen Roger welcome to the argument grind with Steve you should go. I will. Please lay out for us. What hard Brexit would look like, yes, my view is that hard. Brexit is really the only Brexit. And the reason I say that is the nature of the Brexit vote itself from what that was all about which is really national independence and sovereignty. And that was at the heart of the argument for leaving the e it wasn't really about trade or economics. It was about a country electing people who could make decisions about what goes on in that country, and then be accountable to the people. And if you look at the EU, and the way it works, it truly one giant institutionalized violation of democratic gnomes because as I experienced when I wo- worked in ten Downing Street, as you mentioned most of the activity of the UK government was implementing decisions made by the EU. And in that sense. The EU is not just like a trade deal or some European version of NAFTA. The better comparison is with the federal government here in America and the differences that at he's the federal. Moment is elected as the president is elected in congress is elected. Whereas the EU force for driving polcy for the EU commission is not elected. It's appointed. And in that sense, all the turnips to a hard Brexit in the end still leave the UK government subject to rules developed and implemented by an unelected body based in Brussels in that sense. It's not Brexit at all. And that's why the only way to actually fulfill the vote the majority vote to leave the EU is what is known as a hard Brexit. Now, I've read a lot of descriptions of what a hard Brexit might look like so can you describe for me? Let's imagine it's March twenty ninth and we actually get the hard Brexit. What you think of as the only Brexit? What do you think that actually looks like and why doesn't it? It scare you as much as it scares a lot of other people because if the UK left, the you it would be like most other countries in the. The world who are not in the EU and those countries manage perfectly well to live and trade and prosper outside of being a member of the EU to take some of those specific examples, they they all mentioned frequently by those who are at about a hard Brexit, but they've been knocked back every single time by the people who really not that's not me. Good example in terms of flights. Where you hear this all the time flights won't be able to take off from land at travel will be completely disrupted that perfectly prepared for a situation where the where the UK's not in the one of the big problems. I think with his argument that everything went grind to a halt. If there isn't some negotiate it outcome is that it it asserts fall too much privacy. I think full bureaucracy and government in terms of how society in the economy really works in the end businesses want to sell to each other companies wanna trade with each other countries want to get along with each other. And that's how most countries in the world operate who. Don't do. Happen to be members of the EU. So I think some of this is so over blunt. I don't wanna say they'll be no disruption that would be ridiculous. But the idea that you can't cope with this. I think is completely overstated. Roger, I know you're much more worried about the prospect of a hard Brexit. Yes. Show David up with infinite respect stave. The notion that David Cameron's government was some kind of stenographer for the European Union is just absurd Britain was in the opinion union. It was not however in the euro it had control of its own monetary policy of currency Britain was a sovereign nation. And the slogan of the Brexit is as they were called take back control. Take back control of what will not take back control, the Buddha's, not take back control of monetary policy. No, it was some no Stalag fantasy in essence to forced old. That on the European Union was both stood by a series of lies lies about Turkey being about to join the European Union and eighteen million Turks about to descend on Britain lies about money that would be given to the NHS in Britain three hundred fifty million pounds a week going to the U that could be spent on the NHS as hard Brexit. And I mean, I hope there isn't one you could have certainly chaos in Ireland where a heart Boorda would immediately. Go up at some point. I'm hoping that labour we'll see the light despite Jeremy Corbyn, plenty of democracy can think again, you know, the United States can think again a couple of years from now about President Trump if it wants to and this should be taken not on a fantasy Brexit, which is what we had in two thousand sixteen but a reality Brexit now, we know here the terms this is it do you want? It you want mase deal. Do you want? No deal. What do you want to remain? And that would make sense. Steve lemme ask you it does feel to me. Like, there was a story that the levers, the pro Brexit crowd told to the British people that now that the British people have actually had a chance to see the details of Brexit. It does seem like the story that they told wasn't consistent with reality. And my wrong about that. Know that there's a real truth to to to that to what you say that. And the reason for that is the levers, and it up not running the process the process actually got taken over for various gun of catastrophic misjudgements very quickly after the vote by sort of internal fat within the conservative party that we need borough listeners with but the end result of all of that was that the people who made those positive and exciting arguments about how Britain could thrive and prosper and not turn its back on Europe. But actually continue to engage with Europe. But also be more outward-looking engage with the with the wide world all of that was lost. Because the the people who who made augments didn't end up running the prices trees, a may ended up running the process, and she she was if let's remember against leaving. She was staying within the u just just one quick thing. I'd say a point of agreement with which I think is very important to say that he's absolutely right in the it's not correct to try and blame the EU. For all the things that have gone wrong. The that contributed to the vote, and I've argued all along the real ons to that is not leaving the e but what you do with the new found freedom once you've left and the centerpiece of that has got to be policy, for example to equip people with the skills to prosper in the twentieth century Konami building infrastructure, although sorts of things which which Rojas correct, they have nothing to do with the e u I I do agree about that. And how does Britain do that in a way if it were to become independent that it can't do? Now is that like a sort of Reagan revolution? For Britain is independent. I'm sorry to interject a fair point attendant and Steve's phrase the one he just use newfound freedom. I'm sorry, newfound freedom. Do you has anyone visiting Britain in the last twenty thirty forty years felt he or she was an unfree country. No, I completely agree. It's it's not about the the freedom. Of the citizens who live that it's about the freedom of the people that the government the people elect to actually implement policy. I mean, you know, the most of what the government was doing was implementing e u directives the freedom. I'm talking about is mainly in the regulatory arena. Okay. So Roger lemme ask you about revote. I mean in in two thousand sixteen Britain voted fifty two percent to forty eight percent to leave. And I think there are a lot of people, including people who were really against Brexit who find the idea of essentially saying, you know, what actually that vote by the country doesn't count. Let's do it again to be worrisome because it feels anti-democratic. So can you walk us through? Why you think a revote is the right thing to do. I don't think there are any good outcomes. And this is not a good outcome. David. But I think it's the best of the options at this point yourself said to Steve Steve I think if I had him correctly agreed with you that the vote of two thousand sixteen was held on the basis of a series of lies or misleading statements, Denmark island that you members have reconsidered the votes, and this is for the ages. This is a season for the next two three generations. I suppose it's conceivable that Britain having come out could think again, even as, you know, the the vote of two thousand sixteen was thinking again about the referendum of nineteen seventy five which came out more than sixty percent in favor of staying in the so I think people say they'll be blood in the streets Britain will be divided Britain is. Is divided. This is a very fists and contentious debate, Steve is there any part of you. That would actually welcome a second vote and then win it again. And then remove any doubt about what the British people won't. Yes. I I'm not implacably opposed to a second vote. I think that certainty is what's needed above all clarity and certainty about what was going to happen. That's that's my argument for hard Brexit. At least we know where we stand and people can plan accordingly that also applies to a second vote. So I think it's if you like the the second best option after hard Brexit, much better than continuing to debate forever and ever I think there's a couple of of Asians. I'd make the festival there's not just been one vote the Brexit that she'd been two votes for Brexit because there's been a general election, those general election in two thousand seventeen and a big majority of candidates who then elected to parliament ran on a promise that they would implement Brexit. Secondly, I think those who advocate this. I think they do have an assumption that if Britain voted again, it would it would reverse, but I think that is a safe assumption at all I think that the anger generated by the request of oh. Again, might play a little. So remember that they look at opinion polls. You know, they before the campaign going the first time, it looked outlandish the idea that people would vote to leave so you can rely on getting a different result. But the third point I'd make is that when the proponents of a second referendum say look now, we know what it's all about. And and people didn't have the full information. I just would recall that the campaign against leaving the remained campaign. It entire message was based on the worst case scenario all the same things that we hearing now attached to a no deal exit. So I think it's not accurate to say that people were voting on the basis of different information. And that now you'd have new information, I think it'd be the same arguments entirely all over again, and you might get the same result. Let me just make very briefly the version of the Theresa May case, which is look for deal is consistent with the vote of the British people. It is not what the hard Brexit crowd wants. It's certainly not what the remain crowd wants. But it moves Britain a little further from Europe while honoring this vote, isn't that as muddle through of an option as it is isn't that both the most likely in the fairest option here. Stephen, and you go, I I do think is the most likely the problem with it is that everything you said about it is true. But only loss for two years. It's a transition agreement nota longtime agreement and so the augments about all the things way discussing now, what is completely consuming the political debate in the UK about whether to be in the single market whether to being the customs union what kind of trading relationship, what do you do about the citizens living each other's countries? All of these things would still be that an unresolved under Theresa May's plan because plan is a trend is a withdrawal agreements transition agreement. It is not an onset to what is the future relationship between Britain and the EU. That's why I think it prolongs the uncertainty, and that's why I think is bad. Roger, what do you think about the may plan? I agree with with steel. I think it is the most likely joss, I think the prime minister is trying to run down the clock and skept people. I think it's better than steph's proposal of you know, let's just get on with it. Again. I get back to the enormity of this decision, and it was foisted upon people through lies and Britain should have the chance to think again. Well, one of the reasons I'm so absorbed by the story is that it's legitimately uncertain. We don't know what's going to happen over the next five or six weeks. So I really appreciate your coming on. And I hope you'll be willing to come back. Once we find out what's actually going to happen. The next two months pleasure show. Thanks. Thank you. Roger. Thank you. Steve. Listeners we really do want to know which of these three options you would pick. So if you haven't opinion call and leave us voicemails at three four seven nine one five four three two four three four seven nine one five four three two four play Britain. Tell us what you do. And we may play you on the show. So now, Michelle Michelle, and I are back. I get a kick out of saying that for our weekly recommendation and this week. It's Michelle G stands for Goldberg's turn, Michelle. What do you have for us? Okay. So this is sort of obvious because the show is aimed like a laser at my very particular demographic. But I am going to recommend the new Netflix show Russian doll with the sublime Natasha Leone, and it sort of is like a more darker groundhog day in certain ways Natasha Leone keeps dying and ending up back in this bathroom at her thirty six birthday party, and she sort of trying to figure out what is happening to her. And what she has the power to change. If I heard that description, I wouldn't necessarily want to watch it. But I just it's so funny and delightful, I mean, just partly because she. She is so wonderful people who really love New York, and I count myself as one of them I feel like we'll see it as one of the more offensive New York shows it's ever been made. I mean, it just gets the texture of the city in a way that a lot of New York based shows don't release the texture of the city as I've as I've lived it. Yeah. I have to completely agree with you. I have been watched the whole thing. So I just went crazy with it has this great feel to it. If you just describe it is like, okay. So it's groundhog without the comedy or whatever. But it's not in. It's a great showcase for tasha Leone. Who is fantastic. She has this kind of over the top stick, which at one point. She describes herself as what would be the love child of Andrew dice clay in the little girl from brave, and that's actually kind of. So I think that Ross should go out and completely in indulge himself. And you know, I also I also say is just it's so again, maybe this is like a really predictable survey Shen, but I just love the fact that you have this show about a woman in her mid thirties that sort of like an existential detective show as opposed to you know, like a romantic quest. I feel like you don't really get a show about a woman. That's not really in any real sense about her love life. Yeah. It's she's completely driving this train. And she's if anything she's the unromantic person in this thing as opposed to this guy who's in it, and she is just brilliant with the whole thing. The show is called Russian doll. It's on Netflix. Thank you, Michelle. And Michelle that's our show for this week. Thank you. Bye. This week show was produced by Alex Laughlin for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is credit cone, and we had help from Tyson Evans Phoebe let Ian Persad Philbrick and Francis gang. And our theme was composed as always by Allison Leyton Brown. Fantastic. All right. We're gonna we're gonna quake we're gonna take a quick break.

Britain Michelle Michelle European Union Democratic Party Brexit Brexit Brexit Europe United States David UK Steve Steve Stephen Roger Republican party president Ronald Reagan Michelle Goldberg New York Democratic Party
How Does the Catholic Church Redeem Itself?

The Argument

33:12 min | 2 years ago

How Does the Catholic Church Redeem Itself?

"I'm Michelle Goldberg. I'm David Leonhardt. I'm rostow. And this is the argument this week is universal pre-k just a liberal pipedream. It's been transformative before a lot of families. And then what is the place of gay priests in the Catholic church, and this kind of allowed a culture of don't ask don't tell not just about sex abuse with children at lessons, but also about sex in general with adults and finally a recommendation, but the ones that I have come to like, I really do read. I actually look forward to getting them. Universal pre-k always tends to show up on progressive policy wishlist of finding reliable affordable. Childcare is a huge boulder wedged firmly between women and a million opportunities out. There advocates promised that it will help level the playing field for kids by making early education more accessible, which they say would lead to arrange other related effects that would be really good for society. But not everyone, including me is convinced that universal pre is universally. Good this week. We have our colleague Mara Gaye here to join us. Mara writes about New York politics for the times. Hey, mara. Welcome back. Thank you so much for having me, I feel entered so Mara. Can you talk a little about what universal pre-k looks like in places in America that have it like now New York City. Sure. So this is considered to be married. Build Blasios greatest. Achievement in office and essentially in two thousand thirteen before he was elected. We had nineteen thousand kids enrolled in pre K and today, we have seventy thousand children enrolled in pre K, and it's a program that has a lot of problems it's very difficult to implement, but it's also a program that's been heralded as giving thousands of children a better start in life. The head start program. Going decades back the federal program to help low income children access preschool and early learning programs was in many studies seems is very successful depending on how and where it was implemented. And so this is really a continuation of that at the city level, a Michelle you're actually in the New York City program. Right. Your kids are in it. Right. Well, yeah. I mean, my son went to universal pre-k and my daughter's in it now. And you know, it's probably the reason why I will always be at the blue. Ause you supporter. I mean because he created what is basically a whole new school system in a very short period of time. And it's been transformative for a lot of families, you know, my family super privileged, but it has really removed a huge burden for us. And I can only imagine what a help it is for people without our resources, and to be honest idea. Like, pre K is often universal pre-k is often justified in terms of its impact on School Readiness for us, the most important thing about pre ks just that it's a form of subsidised childcare. So when my daughter was in preschool for three year olds which is not subsidized we were paying more than twenty thousand dollars a year. And all of a sudden, we're not paying that anymore. Rossner conservatives who think pre K is one of the best things that government can do. But my sense is you're not among those conservative. Is that right? Well, I mean, I some sort of personal disclosures, right? We used to live in Washington DC, which has universal pre-k. We availed ourselves of universal pre k for a year when we were living there. So I have no sort of deep seeded ideological aversion to putting kids in daycare. I put my own kids in daycare that being said, I think the case for skepticism here is sort of twofold. I and here, I think Michelle, and I probably somewhat agree. I I think there's sort of an overselling of the extent to which pre K prepares kids for school levels. The playing field leads to increased economic opportunity down the road. A lot of the evidence we have from head start programs in the past is that these programs can work really, well when they're small scale and have a dedicated group of people running them, but they scale very badly and the effects diminish the bigger they get if you look at one of the biggest experiments with universal pre k which is something that Quebec. You know, our great socialist neighbor to the north did starting in nineteen Ninety-seven a big province wide, universal pre K program. There was a big study on this by a group of economists a couple years ago, which showed that a lot of measures of not just child preparedness but child wellbeing actually declined for kids who are in the program, which doesn't tell us anything about New York. But at least it tells us how difficult it can be to build a sort of educationally and for that matter emotionally effective program. So I think there's a lot of reason for skepticism that universal pre pre-k has these big effects on how kids performance school down the road and economic opportunity and so on and so the case for it really boils down to, you know, people need childcare, and I agree that people need childcare. But I think it's much more reasonable to build programs that don't basically discriminate against families that have apparent staying home with the kids. So to the extent that I could be talked into. A universal pre K program. I would want it to look like something like what NAT Bruni who runs. This small outfit called the people's policy project. Just put out where you have a universal pre K program that also provides a subsidy for mothers or fathers who are providing care in the home that basically tries to maintain a level playing field between stay at home. Parents part-time parents and parents who work full-time, but you could you could just as easily say that public school discriminates against home schooling. Parents. I mean, it's the nature of public goods that not everybody feels themselves of them. I mean, that's just sort of fundamentally redistribution works. Yes. But I think there's a way to do redistribution that doesn't have an inherent bias against stay at home parents. And so to me a program where the country said we have universal pre K, but we are also going to give a tax credit to stay at home. Parents below a certain income is better than one where we say, hey, you know, what if you wanna stay? Home and take care of your kid, and you're working class. We don't help you. But if you wanna put your kid in daycare or pre K, we do help you. I mean in New York City, the experiences that there's vast disparity in income and benefits for teachers in some of these pre K programs. So in one neighborhood, you may have a pre K program where the teachers are making sixty thousand dollars a year fifty thousand dollars a year or more. And then in another neighborhood, you have a community based program where teachers are making twenty to thirty five or forty thousand dollars a year. So not every pre K is the same. But at the same time, I think that's infrastructure that can certainly be improved upon. And I I also would would say to Michelle's point that that is a huge benefit for many working parents especially those who couldn't afford to pay for childcare on their own. So it's hard to I think for. Practical perspective for Mayan. See a downside seems to be a good use of money. I mean, there's certainly room for improvement. Right. And he's I mean, it's hugely popular and sort of one of those public goods that taken advantage of by all social classes, right? Like one of the things that I really like about my daughter's UPK's, it really looks like New York City. I also I don't I don't know. I don't really understand this idea that it discriminates against stay at home. Parents. I mean in part because they had home. Parents also use universal pre-k. Right. I mean, you can be a stay at home, parent and still not mind getting six hours off a day. You know, it's the stay at home parents that end up becoming class parents and playing this really influential role out of times in how the schools run. I don't know that they sort of resent the fact that there is this free public good that gives them a few hours off every day. I mean, those stayed home. Don't obviously. And if you're a stay at home parent who want to avail yourself of universal pre-k atop the good that you're using. But there are a lot of stay at home. Parents who are stay at home. Parents precisely because they don't want daycare providers taking care of their kids for six to eight hours a day, and those parents are performing large amounts. I mean, I very large amounts of unpaid labor that effectively remains unpaid even as their tax dollars go to pay for somebody else taking care of other people's kids. So it's it it does. I mean, I I don't think you can escape from the fact that it discriminates, I just think the best way to do that pro parent redistribution is to say we're going to have universal daycare. But we're also going to provide a subsidy for people who have three kids two of whom are under five and they're taking care of all of them in the home. I'm curious how much hostility there would be among liberals feminist. It's other groups with a lot of voice in these kind of universal pre-k arguments to that kind of program right to someone universal pre k on whether you make zero sum, right? Like, I would be hostile to that kind of program. If it meant doing away with universal pre-k, you know, I wouldn't be hostile to that sort of program on top of universal pre k for all the reasons I just pointed out, I don't I think that what it ends up doing is becoming an incentive for one parent to stay home or or even just like a bonus for families where one parent is privileged enough to stay home and would likely be not enough to let most parents avail themselves of private options for pre K. Right. I mean, I think I agree with Michelle on that. But I I have to say that reminds me a little bit of this argument, and we have it all over society. But is it black lives matter, or is it all lives matter? And it's like where is the greatest need and. The greatest need is absolutely with low income and working income families, one of the cool things about universal pre K and the way that to Blasios has rolled out New York is that they're not just trying to address the needs of the neediest families, but of everyone, and so I think that's a great idea for lotteries in one of them is what you describe Michelle, which is that we're helping integrate at least the pre K racially earlier. And I think that's really important. And I think that's a that's a public good. But I have to say that I would have a problem with tax payer dollar's going to incentivize or reward folks who have every right to stay home. But I think the way that would work in New York is most likely, you know, I live in Brooklyn heights and the stay at home moms in my neighborhood can afford to stay home very few people can anymore. And so I don't love the idea frankly of taxpayer dollars going to families who don't need them where we have massive needs. So I'm in favor of universal pre-k Mara. I understand that idea that you don't wanna have money, basically, go into the upper middle class. But I still think it's a real concern that universal pre-k discriminates against people who wanna be stay at home parents including working class people. We also have just a stabbed early in this conversation that universal pre-k itself provides a kind of subsidy to those well off moms in Brooklyn because they get to be stayed home. Moms and put their kids in daycare for four hours a day or pre K in four for four or five hours a day, and sort of ease their stay at home lifestyles. You're right. You're getting a public good out of out of having wealthier kids in public school that you're not getting when they're at home. So I would make that argument any day. Yeah. I guess I would argue that it's also a public good to give working class families more choice about how they want to raise their kids. Whether they want to do it as stay at home. Parents. Or in daycare because that's the same choice that upper middle class families have and would also there's also a sense in which we have for better or worse, a public consensus in this country that k through twelve education is sort of a necessary part of preparing people for deltoid. We don't have that kind of consensus. I think for somewhat good reasons as even that Quebec study suggests about what three year olds need in order to be prepared for society. Right. Which is if you say we should put all twelve year olds in public school. I think a lot more people would endorse that. And if then if we said, we should put all two year olds in daycare. We require people to put kids in school with obvious homeschooling. Exceptions. We don't require that for under five year olds. I think for some obvious reasons. One of the interesting things in New York is that there's this debate about whether the program should have been rolled out in low income neighborhoods. I and I'm not sure how I feel about that. But I do. I think that it goes to the heart of what we were what we're discussing here, which is is that discriminatory against other kinds of families. Should we care? I I don't know. I don't think it's discriminatory. But I just I think it was smart to roll it out the way they did. Because it created frankly, kind of politically powerful base of support for these programs that you know, I mean, right. That's just the kind of general issue about universal benefits versus means tested benefits. Is that you know, by doing it the way they did they got families like mine heavily invested in the Sessa. That's right. I I agree. I mean, I I tend to agree. I think that it's important to have middle class and upper middle class and wealthy families invested in the public school system in New York City, and you know, unfortunately, that has often been done at the cost of other families, and he doesn't have to be zero sum game. And this is a great example of of something that actually largely. I think is is working one one other dynamic here is that I think that upper middle class parents are more comfortable having their kids integrate with poor kids in younger grades than in older grades. So I think I think you see a lot more sort of acceptance of the idea of racial and socio economic integration among six-year-olds than you do once middle school rose around. Well, look in a segregated city. I think having integrated preschool is a darn good start. Look I have little concerns about it. We've talked about the state owned parent issue. I also think progressives often don't pay enough attention to the quality and aren't willing to be tough enough about shutting down or sanctioning programs. That are not good. But to me overall, pre K is doing a ton of good. And I think it's an important thing to keep in mind in this moment when it's easy to feel like everything is moving in the wrong. Action in our country. There are actually some things in this country. That are getting better. We're going to take a quick break. And then I'll be back with a conversation about Catholicism's with Andrew Sullivan. I'm Jenna worth them. I'm Wesley Morris. We're to culture writers at the New York Times. And on our podcast still processing we try to understand the cultural pleasures and policies of America and twenty nineteen. You know, we talk about everything from why Kevin Hart's non apology is about as Americans apple pie, and what to make of Colin kaepernick's complicated relationship to make. And you know, we've been Marie Condomi my apartment did we're trying to make sense of this cultural moment, and we want you to join us. Subscribe to still processing wherever you get. It's been another hard winter of scandal. For my church, the Roman Catholic church. Pope francis. Recently, convened the churches first global summit on sex-abuse promising accountability for bishops as well as priests even as he was taking the dramatic step of defrocking cardinal Theodore McCarrick of Washington DC for abuse. Mccarrick lost the title of cardinal back in July. Now, he's become the highest ranking figure to be defunct in recent memory. Meanwhile, a new book on homosexuality in the Vatican stirred the debate over the church's rules on celibacy and the prevalence of closeted gay men in the priesthood Andrew Sullivan, and I have been arguing about our shared church really ever since he allowed me to guess blog for him many many years ago, and he's been writing about all of this for New York magazine lately. So I've invited him to join me for intra Catholic conversation. Andrew welcome to the argument. Thank you. It's lovely to be here in love the to talk to you again. It's been too long. It it has indeed. So let's start with I guess a sort of big picture practical question, what do you think caused the church's sex abuse, scandal, and more importantly, why is it still this ongoing scandal after so many years of revelations attempted solutions, attempted summits? And so on. Well, that's big question. I think the answer is quite complicated. Many institutions have child abuse problems. I mean, it's obviously not just the rim Catholic church. I mean, we just we've been seeing all the denominations find this to. So you start with a baseline depressing fact that this goes on and we becoming more aware of it. But then I also think that the way the church closets. It's gay priests and the way in which it has an extremely high resistance to giving scandal as the formal word would be about the church that it has a culture of secrecy and hierarchy in which is almost designed to prevent these things being exposed quickly and swiftly and properly. And then I think we do have a problem with the fact that the priesthood is is. Overwhelming overwhelmingly disproportionately gay, let's put it that way. And that that has led to so many priests being in the closet and celibacy being what it is. It's a process, it isn't a sudden reinvention the human being it's a difficult task for most priests and many of them occasionally will fail. Most priests have something in their background that could be used against them. And especially in the case of gay priests who would be targeted both for violating celibacy in the instances that they might have. And also for just being gay itself. And therefore what emerged over the years was really a culture of secrecy in which everyone had something on everybody else. It was a sort of omerta, a mutually assured destruction of the closet, and that it self. I think helped cover up the sex abuse and compounded in this way. If someone would notice something untoward happening with another priest and wanted to expose it the person he was trying to expose would easily be able to come back in most cases and find something against that person to get him outed or to exact revenge, and this kind of allowed a culture in which of don't ask don't tell not just about sex-abuse with children at lessons, but also about sex in general with adults and. And I think that contributed to this being compounded over the years in ways that a really too horrifying to even contemplate. I think you can't understand this without sort of getting into complexity Rydin, you know, I think for a long time in one of the things about the church, especially since the nineteen sixties is that it has this kind of theological polarization between would be liberalizers. And would be conservatives who disagree about how the church can change how much it could change tend to disagree specifically on issues like celibacy, and how the church approaches homosexuality. And so both sides have had narratives where you know, the liberals say, well, obviously, it's hierarchy and celibacy and authority. And the conservatives tend to say, you know, we'll know it's there was this sort of breakdown in the church in the sixties and seventies. When things went haywire. And lots of men left the priesthood, and there were sort of this sense that all the rules were being relaxed and the people who remain tended to be people included a lot of people who were sort of using the priesthood you could almost say. To sort of tied from society in certain ways of hide from adult responsibility. And so on and those were some of them were the kind of people who became predators and some of them were the kind of people who were likely to be compromised in various ways. And that's when you got the real spike in sex-abuse. We just don't know do how far back this goes. I mean, we. Will looks at religious institutions. We always have severe hierarchies in which there isn't really any mechanism for whistleblowing that isn't easily punished. I don't think we should go overboard and say that this we never have this problem in the past before we discovered it in the sixties and seventies. Now, we clearly that was a big spike. And it does seem I think to have declined dramatically in the last decade or so, although I agree with you. It's a complicated thing. And I think all those the liberals in the seventies all have something to contribute to this understanding of what has gone wrong, and it would be better if we were able to respect and understand each other's concerns. A little better. And as a homosexual person myself, I I really have no interest whatsoever in defending sexual abuse of any kind gay or straight. The question becomes though, why is the priesthood so gay? It's and what does that do in the context of a church, which in the last twenty thirty years has doubled down on the infamous ability of homosexual relationships, and indeed has described the very being of being homosexual in terms that I don't think would be youth describe any other group of people, and my sense going around and talking to as many as I could is that they are really at the end of their rope that the ability to keep lying all the time, which they have to do is just morally and psychologically destructive to them, and they may leave. We'll let let's talk about that question of why is the priesthood as you say so gay, right? And I I think there I think there are a couple of things going on. And I think again, it's sort of a combination of deeply rooted realities about Catholicism with a particular shift that happened forty or so years ago, right? Like, I, you know, if you have a church that teaches that gay sex is sinful and has a celebrate male priesthood, their obvious reasons, why large numbers of same sex attracted Catholic men would be drawn to the priesthood, and that seems sensuous in their unripe that seems like a sort of unvarying fact of Catholic life, but that's a bad reason though to its own entity is terrible reason to become a priest. We'll be talking about there is that of the negative reason. They're are very positive reasons. Why gay men seek the priesthood to? And and that is why I think it's important say this. At some point in any discussion. The vast majority of gay priests a wonderful people who give their lives and do amazing jobs day after day. I was blown away and still am blown away by the good work that they do. My solution is own a study. They don't have to wear this on this sleeve every day. And they shouldn't talk about it very much at all. But it should be okay. For the Parisian has to understand that this is their journey, and this is their person. And this is who they are. There's the sex abuse crisis that relate to pedophilia and homosexuality, and pedophilia are different and gay men are not any more likely to be pedophile than straight men. And therefore, we don't want to say anything that that collapses the two categories. But then the problem is you have this zone of abuse. Which the former cardinal McCarrick who abused his seminarians falls into that is in effect. You know, you could call it a sort of same sex gave. Version of metoo right where it's not it's not priests abusing children. It's closeted gay men in the hierarchy abusing their position to abuse. Seminarians young men and teenagers right will because I think that there's been a few because there's a third category, right, which is completely consensual adult relationships that are not sexually abusive by which I mean, the abuse of power within the church, and there are plenty of various adjusted gay priests who have found some balance in that. So there's this sexual abuse. Which is totally different thing. This this sexual failure. Let's say it's live up to sell a Bassy and then this pedophilia. So the three very different things. Right. Also in the moral, the moral nature. So that the child abuse is obviously absolutely despicable the abuses. Also despicable. But I don't think it's quite as bad as raping children, but the other, but the problem is the church cannot even sanction healthy sexuality for gay people. So it all from the churches point of view all gets gets blurred together moldy, but the church's view is that is that priests are not supposed to have a healthy sexuality that embodies it self in sexual relationships. My question for you. Then is you think that there is a a kind of theological move that the Catholic church can make where you say, look, we're just going to accept the sexual revolution. And we're going to justify it through some mix of scriptural reinterpretation and references to Darwinian, biology and historical revisionism and in the end. Well, I guess that's the question in the end where do we where do you end up? What does the church teaching on sexuality at the end of this story? We have healthy honest gay priests. Unhealthy honest, straight priests old committed Safar as they can do as human beings to sell a Bassy. We have a different understanding of homosexuality within the church in which we are not just regarded as a problem to be sold. But as a gift to be cherished and in which the next generation does not see the Roman Catholic church as a bastion of irrational bigotry, which is what they now. Believe the end if we do not change is going to be the disintegration of the church. Okay. What we have to leave it there. Andrew will have to do it again sometime. Thank you so much for doing this mall part of a larger argument. Thank you, rusty is always love you talk to you. God bless you too. Now, it's time once again for our weekly recommendation and this week, it's David turn, David. What do you have for us? So my recommendation is Email, newsletters, I realize that Email is not the sexiest form of technology. And if anything it feels kind of old fashioned in early twenty first century, but a couple years ago. I started writing a daily Email newsletter and to prepare for it. I I started subscribing to more, and I came to realize that it's a really wonderful way to receive information. And so I basically now start my day reading three or four different Email, newsletters, I read vox sentences which actually comes out at night by Nicole Fowler, and others. There's a great newsletter for people involved in politics written by Jonathan Bernstein of Bloomberg. It's almost baseball season. My single favorite form of baseball content is a newsletter by guy named Joe she Han sometimes you have to pay for these. But that doesn't tend to be a lot of money and even with all these other forms of technology. I've. Decided that just opening my inbox in the morning or in the evening and reading a bunch of these Email, newsletters is really a nice way to keep up on the world. So I wonder do either of you subscribe to Email, newsletters? He no, I actually don't know if I do I might. But it doesn't become surprised that it doesn't just become one more looming thing in your inbox that you're kind of supposed to look at. But can't quite face, which is how I feel about you know, ninety percent of the emails that I get I will confess that. I subscribe to many more Email, newsletters than I read, but the ones that I have come to like, I really do read. I actually look forward to getting them. Because maybe it's the fact that they're written in a nice casual voice, but it it's become really a central part of my media diet. And I don't think about them as some miserable form of Email that I have to respond to maybe it's because you don't have to respond to them, you could just read them and then not worry about it. And what do you get out of them that you don't get just through? You know, social media or list serves or other kinds of you know, information delivery systems. So there are a few people out there who have decided that this is the right business model for them. So Judd legume who's a progressive writer for many years has decided that what he's going to do is launch newsletter charge some amount of money for it. But this will free him up to just focus on the really important stuff. He wants to focus on Joshi Han, the baseball writer has basically done the same thing. And so in some cases, it's that people who I think are really smart have decided this is a good model for journalism, and I just wanna read them in other cases, I think it's sort of a form summary this guy Jonathan Bernstein from Bloomberg opinion, basically help summarize the political news of the day. And just a couple hundred words, and I think E mail forces a form of both conversational ISM and also brevity that. I find useful. Sadly, I've been with Michelle on this at least until now in that. I subscribe to a number of Email, newsletters, and they tend to pile up like the proverbial unread New Yorkers. In my inbox. But David I'm gonna make a change. I'm going to be a different man. I'm going to go all in and actually read them. That's our show for the week. Thanks so much for listening as always we'd love to hear your feedback. Leave us a voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four. And we might play you on the show. You can also Email us at argument at NY times dot com. And if you like what you hear we'd love if you'd leave us a rating or review in apple podcasts this week show was produced by Alex Laughlin for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is credit co we had help from Tyson Evans Phoebe let Ian Persad Philbrick and Francis Yang. And our theme was composed by Howson Layton. Thanks again. Okay. You've convinced me. I do not subscribe to astrology.

Michelle New York New York City David Leonhardt Mara Gaye Andrew Sullivan Catholic church America Washington Roman Catholic church Michelle Goldberg sex-abuse Jonathan Bernstein Bloomberg Theodore McCarrick New York Times Wesley Morris NY NAT Bruni Quebec
The Biggest Tailgate in Trucking

Over the Road

44:08 min | 1 year ago

The Biggest Tailgate in Trucking

"Four years ago I was northbound on. I seventy five and Knoxville Tennessee. My cargo a load of imported watermelons they had sailed on a container ship from Guatemala. To South Florida where they were transferred by forklift onto big trucks driven by folks like me. These were those tiny seedless designer types. They call personal watermelons. I always wondered about the marketing cat. Who came up with that one personal watermelons? It's like a watermelon. You can have as a friend. I was pulling a refrigerated trailer back then a reefer as we call them. Weaver's a heavily insulated box trailer equipped with a giant diesel powered temperature control unit. It's actually got the capacity to maintain more than forty thousand pounds of perishable freight at temperatures as cold twenty below. It was rush hour Knoxville or K Town Tucker code traffic came to a screeching halt at the junction of I seventy five and I six forty. I got stopped and time but the trucker behind me well not so much Shoot rear ended. I took a minute to collect myself and walked to the back of the trailer to check I on the other driver. He said he was okay. Then I opened the vent hatch to check my load. What's seconds before had been a perfectly picked personal watermelon was now pro lapsing through its ruptured. Rhine down the crumple of exterior of what had once been the trailer. Stainless steel door and on to my trembling hand. Sorry friend Unbeknownst to me at the time this baptism and the puree of a personal watermelon come to being my own creative big bang. Strangely as a result of this event I would come to be part time recording artists a contributor for overdrive magazine a now even a card carrying podcast producing radio. Toby and I'm long-haul Paul. You're listening to over the road. I got that Lucy. You A new. Cfo by truck. It up by now on the top of this mountain and I know I still gotta get down the other side. Somehow and I'm so scared I'm shaking but I know quite a few drivers that swear by roasting salmon over there and we will willing to take pot bellied pig. We tried to even pickup sixty pounds tortoise fines or change. Ain't that anymore. What why shouldn't it be that way? Here's how this is going to work. We've been traveling all over the country down the highways and the hedges collecting the real stories of real people who live and work over the road. You got eight episodes for you and each one we explore. How trucking is changing today? And along the way I'll tell you a few of my own stories eck I might even sing you few songs Too Bad so far. Let's start out at a place. Called the Kentucky Expo Center in Louisville home to the mid America trucking show or mats for short think of a Home Depot about twelve times. Its normal size. Then fill it with trucks truck drivers and every possible thing. Anyone is ever thought of to make a buck off a trucker automatic snow. Change what we're selling heaters for truckers that have cabs telling ninety thousand people with some concerts and swag. And you've got the mid America trucking. Show your you've got your air freshener dues odor eliminator products for the highway professionals. Not Those guys. We say three sprays last for days. Tell me about this beef jerky he's got those all boys make the beef jerky you'll ever eat that really tender. Actually those two. We Are Insurance Company specializing. The owner operators or the international vendors hoping to land that pig contract. Shchelkonogov are big truck. Makers are here. Like Kenmore's and Peterborough Five. Seventy Nine ultra loft in its black Monte truckmaker proud to tell people I can't afford a real one but I can hook you up with a real nice toiling we but for many longtime gear jammers that signifies something more. It's a Hobo convention of sorts. A chance to see all trucking buddies and to swap stories. And that's why we're here if you want to know what's going on in the trucking world. This is a good place to start but first let's cover some basics. There are four point two million Americans who hold a CDL that's a commercial driver's license a CDL allows us to drive a vehicle weighing over twenty six thousand pounds together. We lose seventy percent of all domestic freight. Think of it everything you she had the store everything you buy online moves by truck at some point at it all up. We're talking about a seven hundred billion dollar industry moving literally fifty five billion pounds of stuff every day at that rate. American truckers could haul off the great pyramid of Giza Stone by stone about five times a day. Of course there are lots of different types of truckers and trucks out there. Refrigerator FREIGHT TRUMPET. Collar REEFA throats. You know like what I drive flatbed. We should call them skateboards. Us Big flat trailers with loads of lumber and steel. All the Collar Park Bedbug as a furniture holler tanker trump we call tanker ganger. I drive one of those sometimes to stroke the. How board a haulers? There's all kinds of terminology for them as you can imagine. We have our own factions. Clicks and hierarchies flat betters don't usually associated with a reefer guys like me and the ball. Haulers could never see themselves as freight haulers or door swingers. Has They call them? Because all a door swinger does as backup to the dock and swing the doors open and shut off our show. They say but here for three days at least none of that matters. We're all just drivers and not a one of us. Came here to have a bad time. Volvo dynamic steering with stability assist is a new innovation from Volvo. Trucks allowed the talk mets this year. There's about new technology when a truck starts to skin it seems every part of the truck has got a computer. Now who's been concedes turned on even the seat notice how much of the bouncing is limited. By the active suspension seats computer controlled motor. And there's a feeling the technology is not just changing the truck but it's changing us and the way we do business that the codes and culture of trucking are eroding before is we met are just real like I think last clump into a facebook friend on the show floor named Greg Murphy. Now works for Uber through a resume if oh this is never going to happen. Yes the rideshare company Hoover and here I am now Greg. You you have a unique story because you are a longtime truckdriver exactly. Ashby come like the public relations as on for Uber. It's exactly kind of the interpreter. Be I would call it between the trucking community and Uber freight crank is affable middle aged or the salt and pepper beard and a cool Fedora. More truckdriver than computer person. That's for sure all around. Him is a veritable. Phalanx of UBER'S BLACK-SHIRTED MILLENNIALS. But Greg speaks fluent trucker and so he pulls out his phone and shows me okay. Another middle aged guy in yet another. Fidora go here. It is opens up how to UC UBER FREE APP. And it knows that I'm in Louisville today so now thinking about it and so it has these little cards for each load right so incentive connecting cars with riders. Uber frame is connecting. Touched loads greg. If you would so this one is from Walton Kentucky to Los Alamos California for three thousand seventy. That's the pressure this loop eighteen hundred miles. It has trailer load number and all that What it is wait all I have to do tap that card and the load is mine. Phone calls no haggling technologies coming and it's We need to embrace it and and be part of the conversation. I have to wonder them at three thousand bucks on the State of distance of eighteen. Hundred Miles doesn't know. Haggle simply mean. Take it or leave it who have no choice. I'm going to confess to you. There is a primal fear about the power of a company like test. I think change overall is just difficult for people to embrace. It's unfamiliar. We don't know what is going to look like. And that creates anxiety said truckers are embracing new technology and using it for their own benefit. You've got quite a hat collection way back when I gave myself heatstroke by being stupid Sandra Goshi. Basically you tell them how the people were treated you if you were professional if there was a bathroom that you could use because there's a lot of places that don't allow trucker Caesar Bathroom. She's told me. About doc four one one. It's a reading basically like yelp for loading docks you kind of helped the trucker after you or the person after you. They've surveyed over ten thousand truckers about their experiences. Sandra here is talk. Four one. One number one reviewer if they have forklifts that Ye sportclips On her some of the other attributes Stephen that you can think of if there's overnight parking if you can sleep there and the overnight parking. Sandra drives us a team with her husband. Stephen was awesome. How you were treated professional. If if I was to read the review that I put in for this one doc I would never take freight into the stock. We went in there the first time and we waited three hours to get unloaded which that's okay. Second time we went in there. We waited thirteen hours. No bathrooms no facilities and couldn't leave. The truck refuse like that or ended up and turned into a scorecard for every dock. They do business with DOC forewoman. It's one of those things that it's like. It's never going to be complete because there's always going to be new docks but it's going to be a big relief taller structures do but they're still another technology on truckers minds. At Matt's this year right now log something much more consequential than a new APP electronic log situations become a pretty big issue is called an E. D. mandate has electric walking vice versa. Log I mean most of the time we log on the biggest thing. This log issue is all playing out right now and pretty much the biggest change. That's come to our culture since I started. Trucking Back No. Hundreds of big rigs took over highway ninety nine in protest today. Creating truckers have even put on protests about ninety five. Southbound is shut down one of those things that just keeps coming up in our conversations with drivers so on our first day at Matt's we find ourselves at the vintage. Meru peterbilt someone who's been at the center of so much of the protests. Yeah so My Name's Mike Landes from lititz Pennsylvania Amish country town and Lancaster County I got into truckin right out of high school pretty much. I got my CD L. After I graduated first time I got behind the wheel driving school. The local Vo Tech it was all downhill from. There are all about how truckers record. They're driving and working hours. So yeah we have What the car hours of service which is Once you come on duty you're allowed fourteen hours of working time Eleven of that fourteen can be driving. But then you have to take ten hours off before you can go back to work so every day you get fourteen hours on duty and you have to take ten hours off. Problem with that is is that once you start your day. Your clock for the day doesn't stop in the past. Those hours recorded in paper logbooks. Every driver kept a set of books in the cab recorded their time with a pen on a four line grid and made that log available to inspectors and state patrol basically regulated yourself so to me. That's important because I was taught old way of trucking. You do what you gotTa do to get the job done. But you sleep when you're tired and you know you truck when you're awake if you took a quick nap and your shift or ran a little over the time limit. You could chuckle. That cleric I mean you. Don't turn into a Zombie. Just because you're five minutes past your time and fall asleep and drive off side road then you could chuckle it until the electronic logging device and basically what that does it hooks into the computer on the motor of the truck and it records? Everything you do. I on how hard you're on a throttle. How hard break. And you're moving your stop your speed the whole nine yards. It counts down every second of your day so whereas before on a paper logbook. If you're five minutes past your time pointing the truck stop. Nobody knew the difference. No harm no foul. But now I mean I've seen people backed halfway in a parking spot and truck stops already because if they finish backing up there he's going to put them in violation to go another fifty feet back drunk up in no parking spot. You hear stories like this all the time truck speech like Wales and the most God awful places because their drivers round of ours. You've probably seen those trucks yourself. That's because in December twenty seventeen a new mandate came into effect requiring. Virtually all trucks on the road to run an electronic log and to me it's a slap in the face driving a truck at eighteen years old. I'm now thirty. Three closing in on two million miles. I have a clean driving record to me. All comes down to the way I was taught that comes down to the responsibility of knowing you're operating an eighty thousand pound machine the fact that they're going to tell me that. I need this thing in my truck to keep me safe on. The road doesn't sit well with me at all. I I hear you loud and clear I we we do these checks Ohio Texas Florida. Triangles a lot denise Stepmother is dying. She's in Louisiana Nursing Home and we want to see her. She's days away from dying literally days away from that and I'm on the L. D. A. We stopped to see her and essentially. We've got to say our goodbyes to her in about forty five minutes because our fourteen hour clock is ticking and I just have this moment of complete clarity that something's gotta give and there's a lot of people that will say. Hey that's not true. They don't force you to drive tired. They don't force you to not take a shower. Yada Yada Yada well. I mean you're right. The thing doesn't reach up and grab me and tell me I need to keep trucking but the sad reality is they kind of do now. I should say here that Mike does not run any log. The reason might drug don't need one is because the cutoff date is two thousand and newer. Need them ninety nine and older do not. So it's ninety nine peterbilt's just to all to connect to a computer. But Mike has done more than just. Avoid the new regulation. It's actually fighting it. So we started United States Transportation Alliance and The unique thing about us is that all of us are drivers that met through doing protest type stuff for the industry and nobody out here. That is making these rules or regulations or pushing for rules or regulations have ever sat behind the wheel for any amount of time and definitely not anytime recently. So you know when we go to DC and we go every month right now we park our trucks we meet with Congressmen and senators. Fmcsa that's the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. Truckload carriers we've met with the teamsters So it's been it's been a pretty good thing and we were fortunate enough to help with the hours of service. That are supposed to be changed. I'm actually expecting an announcement here at Matt's for that. In fact the keynote speaker for the weekend is none other than Elaine Chao. The United States Secretary of Transportation So we're hoping that has to do with that realize things change with the times and technology game goes mismatch young thing but truck and still trucking and I chose me personally. I chose to drive a truck because I grew up around trucks and I love trucks and for me you know. It sounds kind of Corny but the other week I was invited to concert by someone that we know Backstage and stuff. Afterwards you're hanging out and like watching this guy on stage you could tell. He was just in his zone. And I said the best way I could describe watching you on stage like me riding across the California Arizona Desert with a truck pressed out in the moonlit chicken lights on just pipe singing and cruising and some people are like what I don't get it. You're just driving a truck down the road and I'm Mike Gabum to me. It's more than just driving a truck down the road. You know it's the freedom of it and that's kind of being taken away as what the bad part is if we don't do anything to help fight this stuff guys like me are going to be gone after the break here that big announcement from Elaine Chao but first we venture out onto the parking lot at Matt's we'll hear why this log thing is such a big deal and I'll tell you what gave me and how. Ld's lead at least indirectly to the making of this podcast. Hey folks todd dills here. I'm the senior editor with overdrive magazine. Which is helping to produce this podcast for those of you are new. This trucking world overdrive is basically a trade publication for independent truckers ones. Who owned the rigs hall with for? Many years. We've called ourselves the voice of the American trucker in so part of what we wanted to do with this podcast to actually build a little bridge between the highway. Haulers read overdrive and well the uninitiated among you. Some going to be hosting a special series of mini episodes row. Take questions from those of you outside the business and put them directly to our trucking listeners. We're calling it. The Channel One nine special after the CB radio channel used for trucker to trucker information sharing the first channel. One nine episode will show up in your feed next week. But I'm dropping out. Ask a quick favor if you've got questions about trucking seriously about anything at all having to do with it no question is too simple or too strange give us a call at seven six five two four five four eight four four and leave us a message again. Seven six five two four five four eight four four. Be Sure to state your name and location with your question. And thanks okay. So back to the mid America trucking show. I want to pick things up the next morning. Outside in the parking lot or drivers are busy polishing their trucks. I love truck and it's a lifestyle. It's not job lifestyle. There are actually two parking. Lots of chuck set manse each with its own vibe. There's this show and Papa John's lot we'll explain. West called that in a minute but the show lot is home to the Paul key young truck beauty championship. And that's where we start our day. My Name's Debbie Jones. I'm working on excessive behavior. Number one name is Eric. Turner neighbor my truck. Show talk boost pressure down here for your term. You want to check out my scrapbook trigger valve. This is a place where trucks have names. The ghost is a nineteen ninety six freightliner plastic exile part of the family says my big girl. Phyllis his little girls stay tuned. Those little amber bulb we call chicken lights very drought rival on and they won't crawling white carpeting wood floors that you wouldn't Florida you get it from Home Depot really old for the competition itself. Trucks are organized into different sections marked off with plastic gross. Oh there are categories like antique custom limited. Mileage bobtail working class bobtail working combo meaning. I put miles on my trip. My favorite the antique original. I cut my teeth on trucks. The Trans Star International. There's nothing like the. Am radio reception on an all. Steel made old school western star. There are teams who work an entire year to prep a truck for this show of guys Polish on it for a day and a half and they're still rubbing now live loveth. Breathe it bleed it if you believe as I do that a truck can be a work of art and this is the Guggenheim. There's a lot of history there. Lots of our lives has been spent in it under it over and everything squirrel. No jury we've done in this job. How much would you effort chuck? Right two hundred green. Let's sort of installment plan. Would you consider we couldn't do that? I figured I guess as we leave the show lot. I know that two hundred Grand Peter. Bill will never be mind. Let's face it. I'm more of a papa. John's type this lot serves a University of Louisville Football Stadium formerly known as Papa John's Stadium. The university dropped that name after the pizza. Magnate found himself in hot water but for truckers the shorthand stuck in any case picture a stadium parking lot with rows upon rows of tractor trailers. Only thing is these aren't show trucks. These are just the trucks. People drove here to attend the one with the shoestrings on the Stern. What's the statute of limitations? Are All out here now. With our camping chairs gas grills and coolers walking their dogs Kentucky Spring Air. Maybe the biggest tailgate and all of trucking. Big enough that you can actually lose your target. Were at the show. I didn't see a single person I knew down here. In steerage it's different. I'm digging that new chrome bumper weren't tell you what happened. The last was it a deer. No defense I remember that the hour at me. What's his name in the back of my head? Later that night there's even an impromptu concert let's get back to it now and guess who gets invited to sing flat better show there any flat better okay. Great Yeah and the in another side Gig. I'm a singer Songwriter. Well we had a friend he. He fell deeply in love with a female flat better. But when she learned that he pulled a refir- she rejected him because he didn't know how you know the chains and the binder and it's called on never run that back door anymore. She died down and drop me on NASCAR more took her teen and put it in and says you couldn't live with the guilt. What we've done in that Pete about now never back again in a way concerts like this. Reenactment of a bygone age on drivers would be laid over at some truckstop. Someone would bring out a grill. Someone would contribute a case of beer. Someone Mike Commandeer a chicken or two off their load someone just have a good tar. Your door swinger live. Maybe that's why this log thing is such a big deal because there just doesn't seem to be time for those encounters anymore and maybe that's why I still come back here to hear the stories. The stories had seduced me ended. This live so long ago. Started driving in eighty-eight hall now to Mississippi Furniture that same night. We talked to guiding Tim. Ed they will tell you rack. Quick light if you cannot turn five thousand miles away. We don't need you. We've got a stack applications over here. This thing we can replace you tomorrow. And of course you take dope you know our take grail of good crate. Nope and I would do. I'd ever three or four hundred miles for some there really. Was this dark side to the old days. I mean taking whatever drugs you can take to stay awake. Stories like this of trucking's wilder days really aren't that hard to come by around here. We were stopped exit. Thirty and Tennessee. Ace Two hundred ever Jay for some reason favorite now more than ever. Thank we've been hurting onto the digital reservation of the law like we have to tell these stories. I remember one time. I went all the way to Boston out trying to get through traffic trying to get back Massachusetts state. Police pulled me over. He pats pockets. I had a cargo pants. The the bottle was down at the bottom of it. He missed it. I could have got years in penitentiary then so I go down to the rest area Rhode Island and I celebrate not Doobie two lines. It's not just to get back but the it was it to get high. It was a job it was for your work. It wasn't recreational turning miles turning bird. How'd you get off of that stuff? There's three ways you get off crank meth jail the grave. Jesus how's it ever and I've been up two or three days when I pray. God you know help me. And he spoke to me. They said it's up to you is through the grace of God that I got off of it. So you're now you're off. The crank prayed God's intervene. What do you tell your boss at needs? Five thousand miles a week out from you told me I can't do it. I work for myself. I'm older operator down. He delivered from that aspect too. Now I won't do. They got up and delivered. Ma I got my I E L D back in Twenty. Sixteen a few months after that Watermelon Rack. I told you about a Knoxville. The plea worked for announced. We would roll out an analog pilot program. Guinea pigs were needed. Something about Knoxville. Jarred me more than it should have for years. I had pushed myself to the limit produce Holler and had never been bothered by the what ifs but after Knoxville. It just seemed like my nine wives were at that time the log felt like kind of a way out of all that so. I let Brenda our safety officer. No I would give it a try. That's right folks. I'm all in tears. When the day came they trained me on how to operate the dog which recorded the trucks data straight onto basic samsung tablet. The company told me not to go crazy on Netflix. And all five win now carting around this brand new tablet. I started recording. Some of my songs and posting them on Youtube. Came to me in a dream. Mackie's I also began writing about my experience of being an old trucker who had to make the log switch. I mostly did this as a Cathartic exercise but to win. I sent some of these ramblings to an editor overdrive magazine named Todd Bills. You heard from todd earlier. Todd wound up giving me a shot on this blog. Now on this podcast. So at the risk of being shunned by all my trigger friends. I have to say in a way I all to locks limit to ask. Great a sin is ruling Downer. Watch good band with a shoebox song pushing that tens of sleeping but enough about me all weekend. Drivers are waiting for that big update. Mike was telling us about on the new rules for logs. What we call hours of service. Yeah we've had a few people sign up to be members and stuff so far while we've been Glenda's even has a booth set up on. The showroom floor of Matt dropped a couple thousand dollars out of my own company to build the booth. Truck did here and whole crew. Here dressed in their matching black shirts. Go Get the word out there. People who we are and what we're doing and what better place to do it where there's thousands of truck drivers at one spot. It's been a year now should see. L. D. mandate went into effect. And we're all feeling in one way or the other so I sit through long seminars by government administrators but no news then on our last day at Matt's Transportation Secretary. Elaine Chao gets up to give us the keynote address the dot has something to say. This would be the time but right away. The power goes out eventually comes back. Say why she gets to what we're all waiting to hear me and the department moving forward with the next step which is a rulemaking garden. So I can't let me department still nothing. No news civility serious. Just then alarm sounds some tell us instead? The speech turns to the usual platitudes homes. Were I'm so tired of that. Line read are Blah Blah Blah. Word without really saying much of anything at all. Elaine Chao Edsall farewell address the mid America trucking show closed the next day shell trucks drove out in formation while the Papa. John's lot gradually disbanded. Matt's was done but we're just getting started. We're going to keep following this L. D. issue across the series. We'll hear how Mike Landes brought his fight to the streets of Washington. Dc and found unlikely allies in the process for some context. We'll go deep into the history of trucking with one of my favorite writers. We'll hang out at truck stops and meet the families of charters to understand how this business affects the people around us and we'll pair into where the trucks may just drive themselves. But first we're going to Grand Island Nebraska to find out why anyone would want to drive a truck in the first place. 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Should Biden Run?

The Argument

36:00 min | 2 years ago

Should Biden Run?

"I'm Michelle Goldberg arm. Rostow third. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week is Joe Biden what the Democratic Party needs right now. Or should he step aside? I'm Joe Biden. And yes, I am out of step with where a lot of leaders in the Democratic Party are going, then America's sexual recession. What is causing young men need to step up and finally a recommendation? He was Stephen King baby. Joe Biden did not have a good week. Former vice president Joe Biden is now accused of inappropriate touching which then led to a big discussion about whether Biden was a relic from another era away from the media scrum, though, Biden still looks like the strongest democrat in the twenty twenty field huge numbers of voters say they like him, especially Democrats. He still hasn't announced whether he's running, but he seems likely to do so in coming weeks in previous episodes on the show, we focused on other candidates, Kamala, Harris, Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren today, we're gonna talk about Biden Michelle, you should go. First you are already negative about him before last week's events. So tell us why you're so down on Joe Biden. I mean, I I don't think it's fair to say that I'm down on Joe Biden. And I mean, I'm down on him as a candidate not as a person, right? Like, I have a lot of residual affection for Joe Biden. I think unlike a lot of other feminist writers, I know, you know. Was a great vice president to Obama. He pushed that administration in good directions. He's sort of a charming figure. I think that there are a lot of reasons why I hope that he doesn't run for president. And you know, this sort of like Hansie thing that is now becoming an issue in some ways is the least of it. Although I think it's sort of symbol of just that he's out of step with the mores of the progressive movement. So this thing that's going on now with Lucy Flores in Amy lap lapis. He is playing out in a way that I think is pretty painful because I feel like the two sides are really misunderstanding. Each other. You know on the one hand, you have Joe Biden's defenders who see this as an example of, you know, absurd metoo overkill, and are we really trying to outlaw, you know, platonic gestures of affection and to them this looks like a coordinated hit and the sort of weaponization of this movement. And then on the other side, you have people who are trying to say, you know, nobody saying that Joe Biden, you know, sniffing your hair or nuzzling her hair kissing the back of your head, or you know, rubbing your nose against his nobody's saying that sexual assault obese even saying that sexual harassment. They're just saying that it's like makes them really uncomfortable and feels like an invasion of their personal space in a way that women are now increasingly titillating how that makes them uncomfortable and self conscious and they kind of. Don't want to put up with it anymore. And so to me the problem is that we're kind of fighting about whether Joe Biden is a good candidate on this issue of like how we feel about these sort of ambiguous accusations by Lucy Flores when the problem is really that his entire record is just not right for this moment. Yeah. I mean, I think that's right. And I I'm sort of I wrote a column this week that sort of I think it's kind of a compliment to the argument for shells making. I'm curious what you guys think of the argument that basically if Biden wanted to run for the nomination and win and in order to win he would need to give people a real reason to vote for him in a crowded divided field where there are lots of likeable candidates. I think you could make a case that he would need to sort of lean in to the very problem. Michelle is identifying right and basically say, hi, yeah. Hi, I'm Joe Biden. And yes, I am out of step with where a lot of activists and leaders in the Democratic Party are going. I do have a record that a little more moderate or centrist in ways that liberals in the left don't like, and I'm going to own it, and I'm going to try and basically rally the part of the Democratic Party. And there is still a part of the Democratic Party. That isn't you know, isn't all the way to wear. Bernie Sanders is on 'economics isn't all the way to where a lot of the party is on race and sexual harassment in these kind of things, and I think if Biden did that he would be able to assemble not of majority coalition, but this kind of plurality coalition he would be doing in way version of what Trump did in the Republican primary where you say, look, I'm going to get thirty percent. So here's what part of the reason. I think he couldn't do that in another that he shouldn't do that. But then he couldn't do that is because so many parts of that record are really things that can't be defended on their merits, right? He's. He can't go out there and defend his vote for the Iraq war. He can't go out there and defend his vote for glass steagle, which, you know, rolled back some regulations on banking in a way that a lot of people believe set the table for the financial crisis in two thousand and eight and that Biden has called one of his greatest ever regrets. He can't sort of go back and defend his treatment of Anita hill when he himself has said that it was really unfair. How she was treated. No, he can't do that. But he could defend some elements of his record on. Let's say race and crime and abortion. And he basically say I'm going to be the candidate. Who says it's okay to be a democrat who voted for the partial birth abortion act? I'm going to say, it's okay to be a democrat who doesn't agree with the idea of reparations. I'm going to be a democrat who defends Bill Clinton's record, right? He could defend Bill Clinton's record on crime. Which a lot of liberals really find appalling. Now, but dot all. Democrats do I mean, I think there's a story. He could tell them Bill Clinton, though, has renounced the crime Bill, right? If he'd even though Clinton isn't descending their record anymore. That's true. No, this this is why I don't think I don't think Biden will do this. I I expected if he runs he will run as a figure who sort of doesn't try to spend his record at all. And or basically just sort of reduces his record to his years as Obama's vice president and says, I get it I'm on board with the new progressive consensus, but I'm a kind of bridge to the future. This, you know, this is why they're talking about a one term pledge and so on, and I think that kind of run will be a total disaster, and he will collapse Jeb Bush style because it doesn't give anyone a reason to actively support him. But I think the kind of run I'm imagining has more potential to get in the nomination, but at the cost of making him this incredibly divisive figure whose hated by a big portion of the party, and I'm curious what David has our as our moderate thinks about that. I guess I think that politics. Are a little less literal than we journalists often treated as I I don't think most voters are out there toting up Joe Biden's history of policy positions. I think there are a huge number of voters who are medium to low information voters, and who feel positively about Joe Biden, and I'm not super excited about his candidacy, but I really want him to run because I think in two thousand sixteen the Democratic Party got a lesson in the problem of essentially trying to decide the primary before it had even begun. And I do think there is a larger group of Democrats Russ, you identified them as basically suburban moderates and culturally, moderate, African Americans and Latinos and others who are not exactly where a lot of the energy on the progressive left is right now. And I think it would be healthy for the party to find out. Well, exactly how many voters like that are there. And the way I read the polling Joe, Biden is the most popular democrat. Coming into the race. And so I guess Michelle my question for you is I get why you hope he's not the nominee. But to me that's a little bit different from hoping he doesn't run wouldn't it be better. If he ran and either one and showed that this really is where people are or lost. And and people like you who don't like him would be able to say see Joe Biden is not the answer eilly go back to the fact that I do like him, honestly, part of it is that I don't really want to see Joe Biden, gloat there and be humiliated. Right. I don't really wanna see other candidates disassemble his record of you know, right now, he goes out as a popular. Vice president elder statesman understand why he wants to risk all that. But I don't think he should. And the reason I don't want him to run is just I don't really feel like it would be useful or healthy. I also didn't want Bernie Sanders to run, you know. I just feel like it's not useful or healthy to go back and relitigate a lot of this stuff. I don't want to relitigate the. Twenty six teen election, and I certainly don't want to relitigate the nineties or the Iraq war. I just think that the debate could be much more forward-looking. And if there are moderate voters out there who just want some sort of nice safe seeming, white guy, the Democrats party, the Democratic Party has some of those, you know, it just it doesn't have to be someone who seventy six and has a bunch of positions that he now wants to disavow. So to me to candidates who had the best possibility of appealing to moderate voters. Many of them are not running or some of them are really struggling so develop Patrick who's African American and the former governor of Massachusetts not running Mitch Landrieu white New Orleans mayor not running shared Brown, whom we've talked about before Senator not running Amy Clark char is running. But is struggling I guess Michelle who do you see I I realize you don't think this is how the Democrats should make the decision. But who besides Biden? Do you see as the? Figure in the race who has a natural appeal to those kind of swing voters. Well, let's like our bosses brothers gonna get in. Right. And I think like Michael Bennett looks to get in, you know. Oh, I think potentially mayor Pete, even though you know, there's a lot of reasons why you don't need like Thirty-seven-year-old candidate who is the mayor of a minor city in Indiana. But I think that he probably really appeals to some of that constituency and comma, Harris, frankly, who's major issue has been improving teacher pay which I would imagine is a really popular issue with suburban parents. And is the rare issue that unites both the teachers unions and the charter school reform Neil liberal sector of the Democratic Party. But in a way, I think the way comma Harris has run shows why it would be good. If Biden runs so stick with me for just one second here, which I agree comma, Harris could run as sort of a moderate, right? She could talk about a record as a prosecutor. She can talk about all the things you were just talking about. That's not how she's running. She's running by talking about the joy that marijuana brings she's running very much by. Trying to appeal to this progressive energy. And it seems to me that it would be healthier for the Democratic Party to have top tier candidates who both are trying to appeal to the progressive energy and are trying to appeal toward this large part of the democratic primary electorate who are less political and more moderate, and my concern is that Biden is basically the the giant among those potential candidates. And if he doesn't run the Democrats might be doing themselves a disservice. Here's I think I think it's pretty clear right now that if Biden doesn't run the competition for the sort of moderate white guy lane is gonna come down to probably Beto, and you judge if I'm pronouncing mayor Pete's last name, right. And I think you've got you know, better award is going to be he's out there doing sort of vague uplift. With the very little policy and beauty jazz is a sort of heartland technocrat, this sort of Mitch Daniels of the Democratic Party. And those are both brands that are sort of more centrist in some general way than the brands that Harrison, certainly Sanders and Elizabeth Warren have and I think that does make innocence, David tastes for them in a way because you know, whatever you think about Joe Biden, he probably has more business being president of the United States than bed own view judge. I just don't think he's going to want the kind of primary where he really runs as a moderate. And in the end, I think if he if he can't do that, then those voters are going to defect to the excitement of mayor Pete or the excitement of Beto or maybe the Minnesota fury of Amy klobuchar, and he's going to lose. Anyway, I worry about the poison of this debate about Biden that sort of borrow some of the moral force of me to talk about. Something that's actually quite different than me to you know, which is his chronic handsomeness and kind of autists physical affection. I mean, the debate itself just seems it makes me really stabbed for everybody involved. And I just don't see what good can come of it. There's there's so much bad faith in so much misunderstanding, and so much personal embarrassment and personal destruction. I just really worry about where it's going. Yeah. I mean, I think Biden can't get through that issue without sort of making his own hands Innis. I kind of caused celebre for part of the party, right? The part of the party that thinks it's fine. He needs that party that part of the party to sort of mobilized around him in a way that would be kind of me has gone too far coalition and their too that's divisive. But he doesn't wanna be that guy. I mean in part, look his one of his signature issues with Obama. Was campus sexual assault. He doesn't wanna be out there as the person being like all those whoever I want. And that is I think the the in certain ways, the best counter-argument is that Biden's own choices under Obama make it clear that he doesn't want to be, you know, the fighting moderate that he was for much of his career that he wants to be seen as a progressive leader. Even if his record doesn't doesn't back it up, historically, and to the extent that's true. Then, you know, you're not gonna get a guy to run a campaign. He doesn't just doesn't want to run. I still think he's a stronger candidate than a lot of this discussion suggests when you look at the polling, and you look at his numbers, and I'm just talking now about his numbers among Democrats. But he he does have some big weaknesses starting with his age. So what are you each think about a couple of the specific ideas about Biden, I think the idea that he would announce he would serve only one term as a terrible idea. I think it just focuses attention as weaknesses do either of you like it more than I do. Now. I mean because they sort of acknowledging that he's too old right? And I don't think the candidate should be in his seventies. You know, my biggest reservation about Elizabeth Warren who I love is that she's in her sixties. I mean, look at all of this successful democratic presidents of not just Arjun ration-. But, but you know, well before we were born, right? They are all insurgent young men, the the one exception would be LBJ. But even he was fifty six even though he looked like he was seventy Democrats have always in the recent and not so recent past done better as the party of sort of like youth in energy and change Ross. If I'm right to assume that you also don't like the one term idea. What do you think about the idea of him announcing vice presidential pick specifically Stacey Abrams the young dynamic Georgian who came close to winning the governor's race out of the gate. What do you think of that? I mean, I think it's also a bad idea Abrahams has semi taken herself out of consideration for that. Right, which is understandable. Because if you're Stacey Abrams. Why do you wanna lash yourself to a campaign that might collapse upon its first contact with political reality? I also think in terms of his sort of out of touch nece this thing of kinda floating Stacey Abrams without actually talking to Stacy a rooms beforehand, really infuriated a lot of people. And I feel like if you sort of understand the dynamics of politicians of this generation, you would have understood that that would infuriate her and her allies, and it's making its making subtext texts instead of sort of implying that you Joe Biden, we'll be a bridge to a different democratic suture, you're showing up and saying here, here's my young Africa. In American running mate who will succeed me very soon. So you can vote for me, it just I just feel like it invites the kind of ridicule and the sense of sort of incipient weakness that did in Jeb Bush in a different context, but a similar one in certain ways just a few years ago. I think if Biden is running he needs to run as a front runner he needs to go in and say, I've got the poll numbers. I'm going to have the money voters. Like me. I'm here I'm playing to win. And all of these moves don't seem like they're made from that position at all. Okay. We will leave it there. We're going to keep going through the candidates at this rate. It sounds like mayor Pete. Maybe the next one we talk about, but we are also happy to hear your suggestions. If there's a candidate you want to hear us talk about leave us a voicemail at three or four seven nine one five four three two four three four seven nine one five four three two four, and we will be right back. This is Sam sift and food editor of the New York Times. Whether you're just starting out in the kitchen or looking to up your game. And why t cooking is here with more than nineteen thousand times tested recipes and all the help you need to cook them. Well subscribed today at NY cooking dot com slash podcast. Americans are having less sex. And it's not just because society is aging. Well, you know, what's really surprising and the date is receiving that sex is actually going down among adults in general, and among young adults in particular almost a quarter of people in their twenties say they had no sex last year as for teenagers. Here's what the Atlantic magazine has reported in the space of generation sex has gone from something that most high school students have experienced to something most haven't why is this happening is it good bad or both Ross help us understand what's going on here. So there's this old short story called a monkey's paw, which is basically about a monkey's paw as the title suggests that grants you wishes, but once you're granted the wish it ends up. Of course, coming at some enormous cost that makes you wish you'd never made the wish in the first place. And I think for a lot of social conservatives that sort of what has happened with youth sex over the last twenty twenty years. Or so and especially over the last ten or fifteen right because if you went back to the one thousand nine hundred and nine hundred ninety s and you asked cultural conservatives what had gone wrong in America. They would say, well, you know, we have we have a crisis of promiscuity and people are having sex before marriage too much with too many partners. They're having too many children out of wedlock. Families are breaking down marriage is breaking down and promiscuity is at the heart of it until you can imagine the social conservative of nineteen eighty two or nineteen ninety-five rubbing the monkey's paw, and wishing for less promiscuity and getting it, but the way we've gotten it has not been this kind of remorse Asian of sexual life that conservatives imagined it's just been this sort of straightforward decline of relationships and marriage. So the simplest reason why Sex's declining among younger people in this doesn't encompass teen sex, but it's just the decline of marriage where people postponing marriage least so social conservatives have gotten. They're less sexually active before marriage society in a sense. But they've gotten it sort of at the expense of the institution, and the sort of social bonds that they imagined that they we I should say wanted reforge, but it's not just about marriage, right? I mean, it's also true among high school students or among teenagers, and then also the kind of declining marriage rates. Can't explain the discrepancy between men who aren't having sex or young men who aren't having sex in young women who aren't having sex, right? That it's actually you have this kind of fall off amongst sex four fairly large percentage of young men compared to young women. Yes. Although we have to be careful, right? So the the reason we're having this conversation is that there was a big new general social survey analysis that came out that showed this bike, particularly for young men over the last five or ten years in sexless nece that is just one data point and the gen. Social surveys, a really good study. But it's vulnerable to statistically like everything else. And if you package that together with the kind of data that informed the Atlantic essay that David just quoted and so on. We should be skeptical for now that there's a huge, spike. Right. That that there's a definite sort of huge young male in cell. Involuntary celebrate phenomenon what we can be certain about is there's less sex, and fewer marriages, and the fewer marriages are driving a substantial portion, but we don't know how much I find this depressing. I mean, I get that the decline in teen pregnancies is is a good thing. But this overall decline it just feels like part of a larger breakdown in the health of our social interactions. People are spending less time interacting with each other. They're spending more time with machines and without Atlantic essay by Julian which appeared at the end of two thousand eighteen is really an excellent summary of this. I thought and it just describes a kind of awkwardness around what for a long time. We're basic human interactions that really depressed me. Yeah. I mean, I think that you kind of have to see it in concert with you know. All these assistants about rising, mental health problems rising vitality rising rates of suicide among young people. Right. I mean, probably not lots of casual sex is not super healthy, but potentially healthier than sitting in your room with pornography and video games. All the time. If that's what's happening, and that might be a stereotype, and then the other piece of this is that Ross before said, you know, that we don't know that there's this expanding population of in-cell 's, but in as much there is a sort of mobilized population of insults, right? These like extremely resentful young men who feel like they've been denied their share of sexual happiness, and companionship, and it's been politicized. I think it's no accident that you see this sort of cycle of radicalization that kind of starts with video games. And then. Goes into white nationalism. And that white nationalists have been kind of deliberate in recruiting on some of these forums. And these men, you know, they've both kind of committed over acts of terrorism. But they're also, you know, they are the alt-right, right? They are the kind of natural constituency of Trumpian politics. And I think you see in kind of every society, and it happens for lots of different reasons that just having large Cadrez of unattached young men without much to do is like extraordinarily socially destructive. Yes. It's not good. I mean, this is where the argument for a certain kind of cultural. Conservatism has always been that you want to structure society in such a way, so that, you know, the male sex drive is linked to personal responsibility. And. And you know, sort of getting ahead in life and becoming a plausible mate and a good partner and a good provider and all of these things, and I think one of the conservative critiques of where our culture has ended up is basically that at a certain point, we said, well, this, you know, this perspective is totally unfair to women because it sort of makes women more passive figures, it assumes that the male sex drive is stronger than the female sex drive, and that's not necessarily true, and all these things, and it puts too many limits on people's personal choices and the difficulty is in sort of removing all rules and structure from how people think about what you're supposed to do in order to have a normal healthy sexual relationship. You've created a dynamic where men seem to think that they're entitled to the levels of sex that our culture says are necessary for the good life while having no clear structured way to get there. And maybe that's just the price. Itself is sort of a function of social conservatism. Right. I mean, the fact the sort of you know, I don't want to use like a buzzword toxic masculinity. But I don't think that, you know, progressive's are out there saying you kind of can ignore everything that makes a person a decent mate. They're saying that you actually have to treat women with more respect and more again, -tarian ISM. And in fact, that is what you have to do to can of successfully pair up in the society in which we are all actually living in right amid Tucker Carlson recently when often my friend, Chris Hayes and said if progressives had their way every man would be a spectacle, apologetic Manley, Chris Hayes, right? And, you know, a lot of people responded like, you know, basically like in Shala, you know, I think what progressives regresses her saying that, you know, if you want to be helpfully married if you wanna be. Be you know, have a family the way to do it is to learn to treat women like equals. And that is kind of what that's the lesson that the end cells refused to learn. And so to blame that on progressivism seems unfair to me. Yeah. I mean, I think I would say that progressivism, or whatever whatever we wanna call sort of current liberalized culture has not come up with a effective integration of masculinity. And let's say gentlemen, leanness that works up and down the ladders of class and income and so on right? I mean, toxic masculinity is a useful term because it describes something that's a constant in human history. Right men are violent and dangerous and ways that are sort of specific to their bodies and their selves and society has to find ways to discipline that and it just seems like we haven't come up with a sort of consistent effective means. Even if there are sort of segments of society in which men are successfully pairing off Ross my question for cultural conservatives is what are you going to do about it? Meaning I'm actually pretty sympathetic to aspects of the cultural conservative. Critique the idea the two parents I would say they can be of opposite sex or same sex. The idea the two parents are better for kids than one the idea that families bring huge benefits I'm sympathetic to a lot of this. But when I hear cultural conservatives talk, a moth and left asking at the end. Okay. But what do you want to do about it besides moral exhortations? Meaning what kind of changes, do you think as a society, we could put in place that would actually make more likely the world. You wanna see I think high schools and colleges could essentially move away, especially colleges move away from the idea that sort of college life is supposed to just be a sexual free for all and move towards a world that the crudest way to put it. This is of course, considered the most reactionary notion imaginable, but is to bring back single-sex housing on college campuses and say, look, you know, the the sexes. The sexes should relate to each other in a slightly more civilized indecorous way than they do in campus life right now, and this would create structures of courtship rather than hookup culture because hookup culture seems to lead in the end to less sex and less, you know, less marriage less of both. So that's sort of a reactionary structural suggestion. And I'm a little skeptical that would have a big effect nothing. Nothing campuses is a sexual free for all isn't problem. But it's not the problem, except the cultural expectation on college campuses is that it to sexual free for all right? That's the weird thing about this moment. It's sort of the most it's sort of this incredibly permissive culture in a way that is then sort of producing this kind of sterile and uptight result in a weird way. Michelle what's your solution? I think part of the the difficult. He is just that kind of young men need to step up. And I don't think it's the job of young women to sort of make men better or tamen civilized men. So I mean, personally, I think that young women shouldn't settle for extremely cold and brutal sexual culture that seems to prevail. Thanks to you know, hookup culture and apps and all the rest, I think that women should demand more kindness and consideration and can feel empowered to demand more from. The men that they had sex with there. I think a lot of evidence that the sexual culture that we have right now is making young women pretty unhappy. And there are elements of the metoo movement. That's kind of a sublimated way to deal with that. And I think that if women feel empowered to expect more of men may be at least some men will rise to the occasion to me. This is a sign some fundamental things for our society aren't working for either women or for men, which I think is why I find it so depressing, and it's a sign of the scale of of the challenges that American society has right now and on that depressing note, we're gonna leave the segment and come back in a minute with our weekly recommendation, which is designed to lift you up a little bit. It's time for our weekly recommendation. When we try to take your mind off of politics Ross, you get to go this week. What do you have? Well, so we're still a week out. But the last season of game of thrones is coming out on HBO next week. And of course, rather famously the series is finishing even though the series of books that it's based on hasn't been finished. So I want to recommend a fantasy series for anyone who enjoyed game of thrones. Either the shows or the books called memory sorrow and thorn by tad Williams that came out I think in the nine hundred ninety s and it has many virtues, but among those virtues is the fact that it was actually finished it was a long sprawling, but ultimately sort of cohesive trilogy of fantasy novels that has a lot of the virtues of the John not quite as sort of bloody and sexually minded as Georgia Barton. But also, not just sort of a JR token, retread and. And again, it was finished. And so much of fantasy has ended up sort of I not just Martin there other novelist who sort of failed to finish their huge sprawling Saugus. So I think it's good to recommend a series. That's both good and complete as all great serious. Should try to be is it going to be a movie, we'll maybe maybe after my recommendation? I I have people who've worked in the movie business. I've suggested this as a fantasy series it could be adapted because it is complete Russ. Is there a reason that fantasy novels don't get finish? Is there? Something that distinguishes them from other series two things. Right. I mean one you sort of get lost in your world ride part of a big part of fantasy world building, you're creating this universe. And this is clearly happened to Martin that. Once he sort of got rich and famous. It was like, well, I want my characters to explore this, you know, this region of west arrose in that region and introduced this, and I can't get my character out of you. Out of the city that I've gotten them stuck in and so on so then that is just linked to the problem of success right often you'll start out writing series, and you'll write three books and by the third book, you'll have gone from a struggling novelist to an insanely successful novelist, and it gets tougher and tougher to discipline yourself. I think to finish this even happened. You saw this with the Harry Potter novels which were finished. But if you compare the first book, Harry Potter and the source roof stone to the last book, like the tightness of the original book is amazing. And by the end, it's clear that nobody can add it. Nobody's editing JK rolling. Nobody's touching her pros. It just however much she wants to right? She's going to right? So really the best sagas are the ones that are finished before the writer becomes incredibly famous. Probably there's a good example of that involving Stephen King hit the original version of the stand was was long. But then he republished it after he got really famous, and he he said in the preface now, I'm Stephen King. I can publish anything I want. And so I'm now. Publishing whatever it was eleven or twelve hundred word ver it. That's actually the only version of the stand I've ever read. So I I guess I I guess I'm sort of partial to it. But but yet he was Stephen King baby. Okay. What's the recommendation again? It is memory sorrow and thorn, the first novelist called the dragon bone chair and the author is tad Williams. Thank you very much. Listeners or going to devote another segment soon to your voicemails and our responses to them. So we want you to call in and give us some thoughts and questions. What do you think is the most undercover d- story in America right now, what are you arguing with your friends about what is one piece of good news? It's all the depressing politics. We've us voice mail it three four seven nine one five four three two four. That's three four seven nine one five four three two four. You can also Email us an argument at NY times dot com. That's our show for this week. If you like what you hear please leave us a rating review in apple podcasts this week show is produced by Alex Laughlin and Winston Wong for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is Greco. We had help from Tyson Evans Phoebe let Ian Persad Philbrick and Francis. Our theme was composed by Allison Leyton breath special. Thanks to Kaiser health news. We recommend their podcast what we are taking a one week break next week. We'll be back in your podcast feeds on Thursday, April each CNN. For the record. I have enjoyed both the company of Chris Hayes and Tucker Carlson in which one is more Butch. I. These are questions that can't be answered on a podcast, Michelle.

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Over the Road

49:17 min | 1 year ago

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"In my early years out here I learned a lot from a close friend and mentor of mine an old reefer. Holler name of Thud Thornberg. You might recall. I spoke to his dad's Selden. A couple episodes back about a stays wildcatter. Thud told me Palm to be any good at this. You have to be willing to do what no one has any right to ask of you. What you meant by that is thanksgiving. Dinners Christmas with the family. Your kids birthdays. They things can never be taken for granted again. Once you become an over the road truck driver after a while though there's a certain emotional calloused forms you're not afraid over every little thing that might be going on back at home do this as a means of survival. You find yourself in Jackson Georgia Christmas Eve. Six hundred miles from home. Some truck stop talking to complete strangers at McDonald's coaching them. While you coach yourself I mean look Christmas was no cakewalk for the baby. Jesus either try living in a barn and December with your newborn baby laying in a fee trough shell that goes over with the Department of Family Services. Who could actually catch me saying things like this. At least that's how it was from my perspective the truckers perspective. But there's another side to this story what happens to marry and the baby cheeses when Joseph's cut a load of lettuce bound for Boston. And that's the one. We'll be hearing today our very own lacy Jane Roberts Paul Lacey. Hi if you've been with us. Since the beginning you know that Lacey is not only a whip smart producer but that she also comes from a family of truckers. When I was a little kid it was pretty much. Everybody was my my Dad. All of my uncles. Both of my grandpas and my grandma to make refund. She's recording an silly and most of them are men so like the men of the family were gone a lot and that was normal. Like Dad's Dad. They're gone a lot so you went to visit your folks recently. Yeah I did hear talking. Yellow jackets in the ants shot. I wanted to talk to my mom my memories very similar to your memory. My Dad I loved it. That's how I grew up. I was ranch kit about those days. I wanted to talk to my grandparents. You're my favorite granddaughter. Nice Bull Drug and I wanted to talk to my younger brother Zane. How much younger than me. Are you a year some months and more like a year? I guess I wanted to understand better. The ways in which trucking impacted my family because my memories of it are memories of a little kid today on this show will hear a story that spans three generations from a fateful New Year's Eve kiss in one thousand nine hundred fifty seven to the very real choices facing lacey in her brother's Today so sit tight from pure XS radio topiary and overdrive magazine. This is over the road. I'm long-haul Paul. Hey listeners. If you're a fan of over the road you may also enjoy carrier in immersive audio thriller from Q Code Media. The fictional series stars. Emmy Tony and Grammy Award winner. Cynthia every vote as raylene watts. A long haul truck driver who somewhere along the lonely highway discover. She's carrying more than just produce. A rival leads amazing. Cast that includes Martin Star Lemoyne Morris Dale dickey Lance Riddick and Elliott Gould Binge. All of carrier now subscribe wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Hey Everyone L. HP here with a timely message. Healthcare workers are currently facing a dire shortage of masks and other personal protective equipment. They are fighting for our lives and we need to protect. There's so if you have make our want to request P. P. E. Please visit get us. P P dot or thanks for listening. Don't where where exactly are you from out there. I was born in a little town in southeastern Montana called Mile City. It's it's best known for a couple of things one being in the Great Western lonesome dove and being wear the cowboy and Willie Wonka and the chocolate factory was was from. I think I've delivered tropical plants to miles city Montana to the Walmart. I'm shooting from the hip here but is there a walmart? We got a Walmart. But yeah it's it's wear. It's where my family is really really from. Follow me grandma. I'm looking at this this this picture of your grandmother and she's standing on a mountain road with with with her semi. She's staring straight into into the camera. Like yeah I realized I look like a young Audrey Hepburn and I drive a truck. So what? Step some kind of problem with that. She'd love that I just. I'm just so curious to see how your conversation went with your grandmother. Here let me see what it sounds like. It was really nice okay. We could go sit in the car. Okay said Okay I have. I have a big boisterous family I have four younger brothers. And they're allowed and GRANDPA's loud and everyone's yelling at each other at the TV all the time and it was nice for us to just be able to sit quietly and talk at length. Okay Grandma okay when tell me about how you and GRANDPA met We met okay. This was on December thirty first. It's like kind of a legendary story in my family. New Years Eve in the late fifties in miles city at the elks lodge big dance. And that's when I first met him. Grandma was either twelve or thirteen And My GRANDPA was like a real hot shot and my mind. He's sort of like he like rolls his cigarettes up in his. Like white t shirt sleeve. He came up the stairs and gave me a big kiss for New Year's Eve. The first thing he did when he met. You had never met him before you just planted one on you know I. I knew his sister but no I didn't know him until down the road and that's how they met for the first time and then they started the way you know grandma puts it. They started going together. Then the age of fourteen we got married in Thomas. Seventeen I was fourteen and then when did he become a truck driver why he done a lot of truck driving winning this young? I think the when he was fifteen he was running around delivering. Melcan different cities up their own malls city. My GRANDPA was a trucker for quite some time before she started driving and she was mostly at home. But you know it was almost like. You're a single mom. In those early years when grapple was on the road all the time and you were working and he was gone all the time and there were times when he be out in need after run and get a check from somebody that he just delivered to and they need after. Run around trying to get the cash back in a you know. It's just hard to get that all done and get home again you know. It's it's pathetic. Did you miss your husband? Oh Yeah and they miss their dad do he was a? He was a good man with him. He always protected them. Because I always had Make them behave and then down the road. Wada's own truck and always started doing that a little more seriously. That was nineteen seventy. Because I quit my job. She would from time to time leave. The girls with Migrate Grandma. Or someone else to stay for a week at a time or something and then go take trips of my grandpa a stirred truckin with Tom Allot. And in those times. She would drive While he slept to give him a break. Tom was working too hard because he'd be on the road all the time. My GRANDPA was running really really hard dislike weekly route from California to Winnipeg so one day. I told him Tom. You go west. Let me go east. We can get through this. She said why don't why don't why don't you let me help. He looked at me like he was crazy. He's what the Heck's wrong with you. You never even put fuel in this truck. Why do you WANNA go trick them by yourself and I said well you just let me show you you get in a sleeper and stay out of there and all show you? I can drive truck and I did all the way over to Winnipeg and back in He didn't do much of anything and then she did it on her own. Basically for fifteen or twenty years. You didn't hear Graham other. Have a secret weapon when dealing with the border personnel. She said she is. She baked like a hundred cookies every week lacey's cookies. What kind of cookies were they? They were pumpkin cookies. You loved him. It was this Betty Crocker recipe for pumpkin chocolate chip cookies. And then guys were always See the truck Kamani and we'll get you unloaded. That's the first thing they say. Your grandmother like armed with homemade cookies. She probably could have annexed to Alberta in her day if she if she wanted to do that and just let that be her gift to America. You know probably. I think she's probably made millions of cookies. Those those pumpkin chocolate chip cookies really greased the wheels for you. Did Ramona Mitrokhin days. Yes it did out a lot. Was there anything else in this conversation? That came out that you weren't expecting I. I didn't really plan to but I ended up asking did you. What would you think if one of these boys decided to be a truck driver? Now you know what would you have done? If if one of my brothers became a truck driver my grandma said Oh I think the dean might. If that's what you WanNa do you do it and then I asked her. What if I Married a truck driver. Well it's a little different animal. I protect my granddaughter. You wouldn't want me to marry a truck driver. No I want you to live normally. I would want you to have a normal life. That's what she said a normal life you. It's it's hard. You know you watch your mom. There were times when your dad was in doing well and your mom having to put up with stuff until the end and that was it the end There's something to her about. You know you can. You can make a life out on the road but it's it's to be left behind maybe a little bit yeah I think that's all my questions. Okay what do you think? Spend too long This is your grandmother on your mom's mom. Cider DAD's side. Yeah Mom said I am Lacy Robert's mom I'm your mom. My mom is in extremely active person. She never sit still. She doesn't dwell on the past. And I think that that's Served her very well over the years considering how much she's had to do now. How does your mom remember all this growing up with trucker parents while my mom you know is kind of like me? I guess you know. She grew up with a trucker dad and during the first whatever dozen or so years of her life he was gone a lot a lot. I remember my mother always being like the disciplinarian and the one who had to like teach us all the things And then when he was home he was sort of the good cop and grandma was always the bad cop. I fell into that good cop thing too when I was GONNA lie so it's almost like being a trucker dad. You don't have to get your hands dirty with like a lot of the disciplinary things. Yeah that's the way she talks about it I do have one very fond memory of my first grade school carnival or something and there was like a cakewalk and just riding on my dad's shoulders to the carnival with the cake and then getting there and I thought it was such a big deal in my like little girl a mind that everybody was going to be so thrilled to see my dad because my dad was never around. They're going to be like WHOA. Terry's DAD's here and nobody cared for me. It was like such a thing. And how did she feel about trucking at the time as a job I think that she you know grew up around truck driving so it wasn't anything weird. I mean that was just a way of life. He didn't really. I didn't really think about it too. Much yeah in that translated into a relationship with somebody who also became An over the road driver that you you knew what you were in for. There were no surprises. I think she was twenty when she got married. Maybe twenty one but we don't have conversations is just like oh you're getting married Okay there is no like okay. You're ready to you. You should stop and think about this. You're too young A. B. He's GonNa be gone a lot. You know what that's like. Are you sure that's what you want? See this is going to be the father to your to your kids and you're gonNA be raising your kids a lot on your own. Should think about that. Nobody did that for me. My mom was always a pretty independent person and so I think that you know when they were first married. My Dad was trucking. You know it worked for her and not having to be responsible for anything other than myself for a good part of the time that we were. We were dating and married. I didn't know about that time when like key. I started trucking and it was really great for both of them because he was making money and was really independent and like they had a great life. When was it that you started to like think about my dad's truck driving in a negative way? It's definitely once when the kids started happening. Absolutely my mom unexpectedly got pregnant with me. I had to find a babysitter who lived nearby. My work so I could go nurse on my breaks. My brother came twenty two months later and then I had another brother two or three years after that and another brother to two or three years after that it was just a lot for me. as a twenty two twenty three year old to do so my mom was pregnant or breastfeeding for almost ten years and she was doing a lot of that stuff on her own when I was pregnant with vein. I had this moment where we had a dog. The dog died in the backyard and I was like eight and a half months pregnant. I might would y do with the big dog bloating backyard. Things like bad. Just happen that you just don't really like what do I do with this right now? You know and like in in a moment when you're already dealing with all this other stuff a thing like overwhelms you to the point like I'm sick of life it. It just got a lot harder because there is just so much more to do rather than her sort of doing her own thing when he was gone. It was her raising kids on her own. Yeah any you might. You might see your dad like four days a month at that point in time. Yeah I really. I have no memory of data during that time. Probably it was harder on sane despite because he is like a little mini me with his dad in he liked to wear the big. Straw cowboy hat like his dad. And you know that's how I would notice it not like in a when's daddy and be home. I didn't really hear that. You know I didn't really hear any like I Miss Daddy that sort of thing but I also didn't feel that when I was a kid. I think he was home fairly regularly but he'd only be home for a short amount of time. I mean I grew up in the same house that I had the same memories as a child. When my dad was gone? Didn't do much. You're always had that bigger house in the yard and that's where we stay in my memory. What happened was like he trucks the whole time. Basically from the time I was born until I was eleven and it just got too hard. Had we not spent so much time apart throughout our relationship maybe things would have been different. It's true but it was just. We were together eleven year. And that's a long time to grow apart. She went to college during this time. I had developed a very independent life from him and I liked it better and they split up and my dad moved out and we moved into this frontal house and I think we were there for a year and then moved to Missoula. How is your mom ever able to do that? To be a trucker's wife with four kids at home and and get a bachelor's degree honestly pie have no idea. I mean I should've asked her that I think that the answer for her. Who WOULD PROBABLY BE? I did it because I had to like what was the other choice. Was the other choice coming. Up after the break we'll hear from Lacey's Dan about why he chose to drive a truck and finally from her brother. Zane ABOUT WHY? He chose not to so this cattle hauler dad of yours. Did you have a chance to talk to him at all? Yeah and it was really nice to talk to him about this stuff. So he's still trucks but he's home every weekend now and when we showed up in miles city. My Dad had made this plan that he wanted to take me and my brother to the ranch up on me to move the seat. It was like thirty miles up a really slow going dirt road. It took like an hour hour and a half to get there. It was an insanely beautiful late spring in eastern Montana it was like Super Super Green Everything was just like popping. It was a cattle ranch. Really out in the middle of nowhere Alec Gun Rack in the school bus. For Heaven's I mean. I think that I had a free range childhood. I mean he used to get sent off to school by himself and he was like seven years old with a shotgun in case he saw any coyotes. You know the scourge all ranchers hate him so he was like actually one of those kids in those like one room. Schoolhouses out there. This isn't like the eighteen hundreds. You know it was like my dad was born in nineteen sixty four. So you know it was like the late sixties seventies until. He was a teenager until he entered high school and that's when he had to go to school in town. I didn't know nothing and I'm looker. Own and I ain't fit and people are making fun of me. I was mortified. I went home about ball. And of course every bully in the place wanting to fight you because you were such A. My grandma would take jobs in the winter when it was slow on the ranch hauling bulls. My diamond. Go with him. Yeah in fact. When I was fourteen I took a truck by myself and followed him to Glasgow Montana with a lotta cows all by myself when I was only fourteen so he had that experience and then he told me that you know he thought it was so cool. Did you think about doing anything else? No Way No. We're all my heroes to the young guys that were driving truck and stuff. I couldn't wait till I got old. Now forget now CDL. So I could go myself I rebate. You'll hear what about like what. What did it seem? Glamorous it seemed really glamorous you know hindsight's twenty twenty plus I mean I guess I don't really have a sense of what kind of work there was for people out here you know. What is this this is the mid eighties? It was the early eighties and there was nothing it was back when the interest rates are really high tried really hard to get on the minds and and nobody was hired so we just you could always get a job driving truck if you were good at it. So that's what I did honestly. I didn't know enough about trucking or had enough curiosity about his trucking career before to ask him about all of all of the things I asked him about so when we were like when when we were in miles city and like living on Scott Street and were little like how many miles a week were you doing. How often were you coming home on average? If I was hauling produce I would go to California and back and stop at home and sleep overnight and then go to Canada and unload reload come home and sleep overnight and go back to California. So it's probably five thousand miles week around there he was. He said he was running. Five thousand miles a week. Yeah that's a Lotta Miles. I don't I don't know how to quantify that to someone who doesn't speak in terms of miles but like how many hours driving do you think would it. It would take to do five thousand miles a week. Paul to quantify that on a weekly basis. You're talking in eighty to a hundred hour workweek so that would be the protas time and then the bull hauling time in the bowl hall in time was probably even worse. I mean you just go go go go. You had to get the loads while they were there. Because you knew the next month there might enough thought so. If you had something to do you went and how you and. I talked about this a good bit when we were on the road and we were talking about the years when you were driving really hard and you describe them as a blur yeah. I think that that's what it was like for. My Dad just seem it was ever the way that he talks about it. How much were you sleeping? Not very much. How would you feel when he would come home? I didn't I wasn't any good to you or your mom or anybody. I would to sleep. Get up again. We couldn't do anything but sleep. You know he was so exhausted. I remember like I do remember. Mom like when you would come home. It would be like Dad's coming home but you gotta get me. He can't grow data loan. You remember that you know that one of the things about getting a reputation as good dependable hard runner is you get in this cycle. Were the more you do for people. The more they expect of you. You know something that I remember you saying when we were talking when we were driving You wanted to be the guy that could get it done. I mean there is about you know in the dispatcher. Says I've got about three guys. I I could trust with this load. You're one of them and a good dispatcher. Knows how to give you the KNUTE Rockne Talk. You know talk about those cities who have to be home every weekend with their little families. Those you know and It's that's that's what it is it's becomes that sort of thing then all of a sudden you're that you're that guy that's you know whose wife is saying. Lead relieve your dad alone exhausted when like in your twenties mural the kids and you were like doing Five thousand plus miles a week like like. How do you keep going? I mean is it like is it money like is it. It's partly the money and you did that to you. Drove that hard to get home for night. To See your family you would drive straight through from L. A. Two Miles City Montana. Just so you could sleep at home and see your kids until the next day so that was like the light at the end of the tunnel and then you would. You know you'd have that night and probably the next evening. Go on to Canada and come back and spend a night in part of day at home and then you drive straight California. Get unloaded and reloaded and drive straight home. So you could spend a day with your family. I know when you leave down that country. You get to Idaho and you costumed. Idaho was only five hundred in five six hundred miles on. You feel like you're almost home. No Gary and we're in like eastern Montana out here like you're like two states away from home still two big ones. Yeah yeah it'd be six hundred miles to go. But when you cost in Idaho you think you're almost home know maybe he and he he'd never told me a lot of these stories either like he'd never volunteered these stories that. I wonder if it's because he just didn't think that there was much that was extraordinary about it because it's such a fact of life for him. I've kind of I've wondered about this whole thing about you know. If you're a trucker you know itinerant worker. You're GONNA law At some point you relinquish the right to your own story. You don't get to tell your story someone has to ask. Is that something that you feel with you and your your family. Well I was very. I was very fortunate to have had a alive. Who would tell my kids things like our. Our bills are really tight. So Your Dad's going back out to California again to kind of get us out of trouble and so I mean there's things that were repeated to me by my daughters and so you know sort of like your grandfather. I got to be the good guy when I got home so I was very fortunate to to have had someone who was a pretty good. Pr Agent for me. But NOT EVERY NOT. Every truck driver is Fortunate that way so the last person I want to tell you about Paul is my brother's aim name is Zane Roberts. I'm the brother of Beautiful Roberts Zane. That's a great western name. That's that's that's a true cowboy name there I mean my name is Lacey. Jane Roberts and my brother's name is Zane Tyler. Roberts couldn't get to more perfect little cowboy and cowgirl names that was so was name was he did he grow up like a cowboy. Was He kind of like a Rodeo Guy Bowl Holler guy or he was such a little mini me of my dad remember one time went to Fresno Dad when we were like I was probably in second grade so I did a lot sleeping in the back and he just drove and he just like worship the ground my dad walked on and loved the track and Vienna sausages straight out of the CAN. Yeah that's really all. We ate my dad for example was really into the Dallas cowboys. And you know when he was home him insane. What Always Watch the Dallas Cowboys game together? He's still. He's still like ninety percent of his shirts are cowboys jerseys. Wow now did sane ever that he become a truck driver or what did he wind up doing now? Zan Saint never became a truck driver. No I decided longtime ago I would never do that. I would never place money or work above things I care about. You know. That's that's probably one of my first lessons life lessons for sure. For Zane. Those years he remembers than being harder because I think my he felt my dad's absence a little bit more. And so I I. I don't think I realized until we talked. How sort of tender that little. That memory is for him so Zane told me this this story that he remembers from being really little that he never. He never told me about before when we were little he he in my my cousin used to be like best friends and they'd hang out all the time and one day they were hanging out over at my aunt's house and they were playing with toy trucks. Since we were little you know he had toy trucks. And that's what he wanted to do because he thought it was cool but the trucks they meant something different design and I resented that just He didn't he didn't. Now what are you talking about? So why do you think you knew at such a tender age just because I knew what it did Our family and I guess one thing. I'm trying to figure out what did trucking due to our family like part of me is sort of like nothing you know like a supported us but do you resent the fact that that was a truck driver. Um No. He drove hard because he had four kids. You know. And that's all he really knew how to do and he resented it how we were too young to know. Exactly how much but he always hated. 'cause it just it you can't be a parent you know you're all you do. Truck is driving all the time. But there's not a lot opportunity there anyway so no matter what kind of work. He just Try to be home every night that that's the most important thing. I think you'd be a really good dad if you ever. If you ever end up doing that I just thought about any of this a long time so I think that same. Feel some of the pain that my dad felt just because he knows about and thinking back on that time. I think bring some of that up the things you bury you know. I just knew that I wouldn't I wouldn't do that to my family. That's no way to live. You know there's many important things in a lot of people don't don't ever have that thought. So can I ask you a question? Paul? Sure what does it make? You feel when I tell you the story about me and Zane it kind of reminds me of. I used to buy my grandkids. Semis all the time. And my daughter would like catch us. Like playing semis for hours and my my grandson would say now. What kind of wreck is this crap? While Bom shoved one semi into the other. I said well that's a t-ball and now what kind of wreckage scramble and we would like play. What kind of records this GRANDPA? For long periods of time and in one day and by then they amassed a fleet of about eight trucks and one day my daughter just took all those trucks and threw them away. She said they were just getting a mass. They were always getting in the way but I always kind of wondered if maybe she thought those boys were just having a low too much. Fun those toy trucks and in talking to you almost wonder if if you're speaking truth back to me that. I've never really explored that much with my kids. We've had these discussions come on. Daddy you did the best you could and let's have a beer but it's not it's I Dunno I suppose when I when I hear what you say Lacey. I think this is probably a lot. What my own kids went through. You know what I mean. Yeah and you they say to you down we know. We know that you did the best you could. You had to do what he had to do. We understand. Does that make you feel better? I appreciate it but you know when you're a parent you get one chance to get it right so i. I'm not sure I don't know how to answer that. Lacey because I don. It's like it's not like. I'm glad you understood because they you still don't get that time back whether they understand that or not and a man's conscience can be can be Very harsh at times. I'm just asking because I because I'd like to ease my dad's conscience a little bit because I know that he feels really bad. I know that he has these similar feelings. That you've had and I'm not quite sure how to do that. I the best thing you can do is What what makes me feel good is just to be able to To spend time with my my grown children and their children and just you know my daughter. My daughter gave me a haircut the other day. It was just a wonderful time but I went to another barber to get it corrected. And she she busted me because now. My Hair's just really short. That buzz cut long beard. Look that's going around now. Oh Man I like this advice hang out with Your Dad. Give him a haircut. Justice have a nice time because you know these these sessions. Like these deeply introspective sessions. They might be healthy. But it's probably more like a colonoscopy you don't want to have it done every week. Yeah Okay I do want to say that. I think it's very kind and sweet that you view kind of asking these questions at this point in your life I take. Your Dad is very fortunate to have a daughter like that. Well you know I think during this project is sort of Made me think about these things in a different way Luton Stage Wade still missoula sheer will. Do you bought in any town. Now just a ban is some good Graham J Janna a damn jetted cool Brew Man Name. Would you take to northbound on he? A man and pain arose you this Over the road pit crew include producer and sound designer Ian Causse contributing producer. Lacy Roberts at transmitter media are editor for overdrive magazine is Todd. Dill's our digital producers Aaron Wade. Our project manager is Audrey March and our executive producer radio. Toby is Julie Shapiro. I'm long-haul Paul. All the music on the show is by Ian Costs and myself special thanks to lay she and her family for leaving everything on the field on this episode much respect. Also the credit cone transmitter media. Who made it possible for lacy to work with us on this show on a personal note? Special thanks to Thud. Thornburgh my old friend and mentor. I referenced the top of the show. We hold many load together. Even teamed load of Tropical Plants Wants to Alaska in the dead of winter. Lost Elton to cancer a couple months ago he was the best hand I ever knew over. The road is made possible by support from folks. 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One-on-One With Elizabeth Warren

The Argument

50:16 min | 2 years ago

One-on-One With Elizabeth Warren

"I'm Michelle Goldberg, I'm Ross south. I'm David Leonhardt. And this is the argument this week Senator Elizabeth Warren sits down with me to talk about her plan for the economy. The progressive agenda is America's agenda on economic on economics, then Ross Michelle, and I debate is Warren's agenda the future of the Democratic Party. This is what I start wondering like how much policy actually matters at all. And finally, a recommendation about the Perrier fruit flavored seltzer and it's awful. Senator Elizabeth Warren has been setting the terms of the conversation about policy in the twenty twenty presidential campaign. She's come out with a series of ideas that are big bold and some would say radical an annual tax on the holdings of the very wealthy universal. Childcare a break-up of big tech companies are requirement that corporate boards include workers, whether or not Warren wins the nomination, she's influencing the future of the Democratic Party. So we wanted to sit down with her and give a proper hearing to her ideas. She invited me and our producer Alex Laughlin to her apartment in Washington DC where we recorded this conversation fittingly enough at her kitchen table, Senator Warren, welcome to the argument. Thank you. I'm glad to be here. So, you know, a lot of the people who are also running for president some of them are your friends do. So why you? This is my life's work. And look I even twenty twenty will be about economics. What's happened to working families? What's happening to middle class families? Why is it that the path has gotten so much steeper so much rockier for hardworking people, and even steeper and even rocky for people of color. This is a moment when we can tackle that one head on when we can run straight up the middle and say, we're gonna make a change you. So you've been alive for previous presidential campaign. You know, how Republicans will paint a democratic nominee, and you in particular if you're the nominee, right? If we were going to make a democratic nominee in a lab right in probably wouldn't be a former Harvard, professor. So how do you fight back when they say there is this. -chusetts liberal. I'm going to push back and just the whole notion of of how this should work. Look, I was born and raised in Oklahoma on the baby I have three older brothers significantly older. Yes. Significantly elder brothers. They all three join the military that was their chance to make it into the middle class. My daddy ended up as a janitor. My big chance in life was a commuter college that costs fifty dollars a semester. And ultimately, I got to be a public schoolteacher worked with special needs kids, and you were like going part because you were pregnant I know got pushed out the door. But that turned me around a law school a public law school that costs four hundred fifty dollars a semester the way I see it is I have lived opportunity. I don't just. In the abstract. Think opportunity is great I've lived, and I've lived kind of opportunity that comes from a government that infests a little in its kids. A government that tries to keep the playing field a little bit level for folks. Like my family. I believe that is the America of our best values. So your campaign is a direct extension of your life's work. Yes, idea that our country our society doesn't work for most people anymore, and that you wanna fix that. And so I thought we should talk a little bit about what caused the problem, and then how you wanna fix it and actually wanna start with a historical anecdote that involves another presidential candidate. And maybe not the one you would expect George Romney mixed dad who before he ran for president in nineteen sixty eight was an auto executive, and he had a habit of saying no to annual bonuses that his board wanted to give him because he said to his aunt he said to his board of directors. I do not believe anyone should make more than two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars a year, which adjusted for inflation is about two million dollars. I mean, can you imagine that today? And I think that that highlights how are. Our culture in our society used to be different that top corporate executives didn't try to maximize their own pay. They view themselves as leaders of society insure they fought for things that help their profits. But they also built the interstate highway system. And I guess I just wonder if you could look back and offer some thoughts about what was it that created that old culture that seemed to work so well for our country. So I say the roots were in the great, depression, and the notion that we had lived through a period of extraordinary inequality. Right. The very very wealthy. And then it all come crashing down around our ears in the great depression, and those who had been at the top were really kind of fingered as the guys who caused the crash and brought it down on everyone. So the idea. Was we're in this together. Now, you always have to take a deep breath on this in say together as relative term together among white people and together among men, but still you can actually see it in the data. Can't you that as the country got richer as GDP goes up income goes up for everybody? You can read things about how when the company does. Well, how excited all the workers are because that means this year, they're raises we're going to be a little bit bigger. In other words, the sense of shared enterprise is not only the the CEO who says I'm I'm part of leading this team. And we're gonna do this together and and living not just the rhetoric. But also at the other end all the workers being proud of what they put out because they know when the company does well, they will do. Well, can you see any way to recapture? Sure that old ethos today. So how did the company's at that point describe themselves and how the law align with it? Because it wasn't just a cultural thing it was actually reinforced by by legal incentives by rules. They all they'll work together. Let me give you a couple of examples. So you look back at the business roundtable, you know, these are the Jain Norma's businesses that all get together and the CEO's get together and talk about how businesses I think a formerly only CEO's can be I think that's right. I think that's right and only Jain Ormuz companies can be can be members. So they got together for the business roundtable, and how do they describe themselves into the early nineteen eighties? Now, this is formally described themselves not just over cigars and fine port. But how do they actually describe themselves dot com? Yeah. In their documents. And they say a corporation of duty to its shareholders to its workers to its customers to the community in which it is located that all of those entities are stakeholders in this company. By the end of the nineteen eighties. You see the business roundtable describe the obligation of these join Norma's corporations as we have an obligation. Our shareholders, nobody else full stop full stop. Our job is pump out the greatest number of dollars of profits to increase the wealth of our shareholders in that means mashing our workers into the dirt not our problem. So so powerful difference. And then you're watching the law of the incentives in the law shift at the same time. So Roosevelt comes in and first Roosevelt going to be a trust BUSTER that works for a while. Then it kind of dies off. And then we see the gilded age. Second Roosevelt comes in Franklin Roosevelt. And he says, I'm a pickup. These antitrust tools. And I'm on a us them. So throughout the thirties. The forties the fifties. The sixties. Into the seventies. You see really strong any trust in forcement. In other words, you get too big. And there's a there's a government that balances you out insists, whoa. No more swallowing up your rivals. No more eating the little businesses. So that they don't pose any threat to you. And you watch that all the way through in the government, the places where the government supports the idea that corporations are not just there to maximize their profits. We gotta make sure that competition is protected that the SEC is strong and his is a cop walk in the beat to make sure that giant companies or not cheating, either their investors or their customers. That's the I and you can sort of see how the government and companies reinforce each other companies feel like, hey, there's a cop on the beat. We better behave. And if they feel like, you know, what? They're not going to stop us. If it Li sorta gives them incentive and permission to be much more aggressive about everything you are. So right to focus on the incentive infect, just anti. It actually starts to work the other way. So if there's a cop on the beat, I better mind, my Ps and qs, but I know my competitors will be to if there's no cop on the beat. Holy right. Wait. I know I'm a good guy. But man that corporation or corporations I'm competing against they're not in. If no one's going to enforce in. They're gonna cheat. Boy, I better get out there and start cutting corners to so so the role of government, it's not just either good or benign. It's actually good or bad in terms of how it these incentives. Get adjusted one of the themes that we talk about on our show is the American people are quite progressive on economics. Right. You look at the polling on your wealth tax. You look at the polling on other tax increases on the rich tax increases on corporations minimum wage expanding. Care down the line. The progressive agenda is America's agenda on economic on economics. I think it's different on social issues and cultural issues where I think we are more fundamentally divided. I think they're even some issues where you could say we are center right country, but we are much more of a center country than a left leaning country. And I think that there are a lot of people out there who even though they may support a well tax or expanded Medicare continue to vote Republican or don't vote because of some of these other issues, and it's interesting, you're a former registered Republican earlier in your life. Right. Can you talk about how you make the case to people who are with you on economics. But who for deeply held reasons they may be pro-life? They may want immigration restrictions. They may they're not going to agree with you on those issues. How do you win those people over? So I'm gonna make the pitch slightly differently. And that is I think a lot of. I don't believe you actual make any change on economics that most politicians will stand up and talk about all I'm I'm here for working people. And then they're not. And then they don't make any real change. I think that right now people are told over and over and over there's not a nickel's worth of difference between the folks in Washington. Yup. Democrat Republican fact the only differences are on social issues because none of them are doing anything to help anyone except giant drug companies giant financial companies giant oil companies. Right that help Trump win Detrick. And so it's not as if people have been asked to weigh real economic change versus social issues on which we as just as a country. We just we disagreed. Instead. It's been a Washington that doesn't work for them. And that's what they see. So I the way I see this coming really hard at this fundamental question of what's broken? Why it is that Washington doesn't work in a democracy for the majority of the people and that we can see where the economic problems are. We can truly make a commitment. That's credible. That worked gonna fight it and fight it together and make these changes. He here's the example, so start with the wealth tax and people get interested, and they say, wow, you really would be willing to push back on the billionaires on the multi multi multi millionaires on people who've massed these great fortunes and the answer to that is. Yeah, I would. But here's part two. If we did that let's talk about what kind of difference that could make in your life because the wealth tax would produce enough. Money to pay for universal child care and early education, pre K and pre pre K and still have two trillion dollars leftover think about what we could do on student loans or the work we need to do on infrastructure. And you know, it all starts to feel real. Now, something something that's not just hand waving and pie in the sky, but feels like real chain outside. But it experts had to me, you know, I can't decide how I feel about the war and wealth tax. But I'll tell you this. She never has to answer the question again during the campaign of how will you pay for the answer? Is there the will you start with how you're gonna pay for it? But that's that's actually the heart of the point. So there's there are a whole bunch of silly criticisms of a couple of your policy proposals. Oh, well, let let's do the spin. Well, let's give the silly. Let's let's let me tell you the ones that way on meal. Okay. Right. Which is in the literal sense of the word radical meaning to get at the root of the problem. You have some radical proposals. Right. They're new they're innovative. So one is the well tax. We do not currently have a tax on large. Well, we have a property tax, which is sort of which is gonna say actually I'd like to point out that every homeowner in America, every owner of a small family farm. They're paying a wealth tax. That's just called a property tax. And they usually lot more. Which is I think probably the best argument for you. Also have this proposal to put workers on corporate boards with the to the idea of re-instill in the notion that companies exist for shareholders, yes, but also for workers and communities. So it seems to me that the more substantive criticisms of this is that you are asking government to do a lot of new things given the amount of distrust that people have in government, what gives you the confidence that government can actually take on all these new roles and do these things that it hasn't been doing. I built one built the consumer financial protection bureau that went from. Zero to sixty right? We did have a consumer agency within a year. It was actually out there stopping the frauds forcing the big banks to pay people back managing a consumer complaint hotline, we made it work, and I'll tell you about setting that up because this is like this was amazing. I building that agency was an amazing experience. But the probably the best part of it was the fact that people from all over the country showed up and said, let me be part of this. I want to do something something bigger than myself something more important than what I've been doing. And people people applied who'd been in the banking industry. People applied who were straight out of college people applied who had just retired at a cowboy who applied strew. It's true story. He was. He described self as cowboy banker. But but people apply people applied been prosecutors, and it prosecuted other kinds of criminal behavior and wanted to chance to go after those who cheat people for their money. And then the challenge was to build an agency that had a structure so the mission really would carry out over time. Not just while. I was there in able to walk up and down the halls and say who are we fighting for families across this country. But that would truly be built into the structure and so- proof is in the pudding that little agency has forced the biggest financial institutions in this country to return about twelve billion dollars directly to people. They cheated now take a deep breath there if they actually had to write checks for twelve billion how much other cheating didn't go on because they said, this is jus- Colin idea. That cop on the beat. I think a lot of people have the impression that Trump has just totally neutered it, but you think this agency is still doing good today. Yeah. Do not as much as it could be doing that Mulvaney did everything he could to take the legs out from underneath it. But. The agency may have paused in some of its more aggressive work. But the structure is rise donor, and it still handling those complaints it still making a difference in the market at it feels. I mean, it seems to me to bigger point there in terms looking forward is you actually think sometimes bigger ideas or more possible to accomplish because you can inspire people. One of the ways that we know the campaign playbook, particularly for President Trump will go it'll involve racism, you've obviously experienced this more than most people because of the racist. Insults that he us after the whole controversy about the native American history. You said that you're open to the idea of of of reparations, not only for African Americans from slavery, but reparations for native Americans. How do you make that case in particular to white workers that the Democrats are the party of white people too? So I'm I'll make the argument two ways one is I think we just have to address it and talk about it head on. We cannot pretend there is no racial implications. Anything that happens? We live in an America where for every hundred dollars of wealth that the middle. White family owns the median black family owns about five dollars of. Wealth generation after generation of systematic discrimination, for example, on housing, which was still legal into the nineteen sixties of federal government, subsidized the purchase of homes in all the neighborhoods, except African American neighborhoods has had implications that reverberate through today. And we just gotta be willing to address it and talk about it head on. There's no sweeping it under the rug. There's no pretending it's not there. So I think that's part. One was talk about part two is look Donald Trump gets the basic idea. And that is let's set working people against working people. Let's let's treat value in our country wealth in our country is absolutely limited. And if a dollar to him, it's not a dollar to you working person against working person. Martin Luther King junior called this out back in the nineteen sixty. As he talked about setting working people against working people. So nobody would notice that it was the really rich people who were picking their pockets. So I think part of it is we just have to say are set who are going to be or we're going to turn on each other. Or we try to work this out slimming actually ask you a quick question. Universal childcare. It was a subject of a recent episode of the argument, and there's a lot that I really like about the universal childcare program. I liked the idea that it builds up a system of better preschools, I like the idea that you're gonna raise the wages of of childcare workers, I've one right? I have one concern. And it's it's not the majority of the program. But it's a real concern. There are working class and middle class people who want to stay home with their kids your mom did that get right now. And this program doesn't help them. Oh wrong. Tell me so wrong. So this program puts all this money into early learning programs, so understand rich people whether they're home or not they've got their kids in notch programs when they're four years old when they're three years old lot of them when they're still two years old because they know that those educational opportunities, and they are educational opera. I mean, it looks like to you and me they're playing with blocks in their bumped into each other and knocking each other down. But these these are important educational opportunities. Those are open to everybody have at it. You don't have to go in. In pocket to make sure that your children get the same opportunities as the children of somebody who's rich. Could you imagine adding some kind of tax credit that says if your income is below a certain level, and you stay home with your kid for the first year or two that you get a boost as well. So I think it's an interesting idea. I want to see how the numbers play out, of course, and exactly would be affected. But but it is true. And this is a this is a core part of it. This is about parents being able to have a range of decisions open to them. That's really the heart of this. And the fact that all our babies zero to five will be well taken care of no matter what you know, you think about what's going to make a Great America a generation male two generations best investment, we can make is in those zero two fives. We've the data show us. Every nickel we invest their pays off not only individually for that child throughout their lives. But but also collectively for all of us investments in our kids. Those are the investments that really pay off yet, it reduces future welfare spending. And you probably might create a few more billionaires who than pay some of the wealth sack clear exa-, and I'm all for that, you know, more people to pay the wealth tax there. One more question on that actually extends to K through twelve and through higher education, one of my differences with a lot of other progressives is that I think progressives haven't been tough enough about the quality of public schools. How do you think the federal government can do a better job of or disagree with the premise if you want of getting tough on poor performers and raising the quality not just the funding, but the quality of education, so I'm going to do to pitches here. The first one. Is you can't raise the quality of education. If you won't pay your teacher, you can't raise the quality of education. If you do like, I did I went back to my high school and their ceiling tiles, falling down in the school cafeteria and Oklahoma's because the roof leaks, and nobody has the money to fix it. So partly you can't stand around and say do more do more do more and not give them some more money to be able to do it with. But but the second one particularly want to focus on higher Ed because there's a lot of work here. This is a place where your tax dollars have been put at risk through the student loan program. And yet right now, the department of education is leading for profit colleges, for example, just siphon those dollars off in two at best sub-standard educational experiences for many, many, many students and the. Consequence of that is that people get saddled with huge debt and very little increase in their income potential and their lives are destroyed because those debts not discharge -able in bankruptcy. So right off the top. This fight is right on the table about how much the federal government should insist on higher standards for anyone to be able to get access to the for any school to be able to get access to the federal student loan program and understand for most of these four profit colleges. They can't operate without federal student loan money. They target principally to groups young people who went straight from high school to the military and now have good benefits is they come out and are ready after maybe having served four years or six. Shears? They wanna come out that want to get a college degree. They pounce on those kids, and they pounce on single moms working two jobs on it. Read the ads in the subway and add they pitched them on the idea that their children, the children of college graduates do better than the children of non college graduates. So people sign up who are not always very sophisticated about the colleges, and they get deep in debt for very substandard educational programs. This is a place where right now, Betsy DeVos, your secretary of education is lowering the standards day by day show that for profit colleges can rip off more students. That is outrageous. I agree and for private colleges are clearly worse than public colleges on the only thing. I'd add is there are public colleges that also have horrifically high dropout now, I would add to your point. I've. Actually been pushing for a long time something called skin in the game. And that is for all of the colleges that they should have some skin in the game that the amount of debt their students take out is actually repayable. In other words, the default. I just use the default rate as the measure, if you have a whole lot of students who are defaulting either your charging too much, or you're not helping prepare them for a life, or they'll be able to pay this debt back and the idea that the colleges once they get their certification that they are in a credited college. And by the way, that's not done by the government that's done by these private accrediting agencies. You wanna pause for minute who get their money from the colleges. They accredit anything might be wrong in that system. Have we ever tried something like that before? But once they get their accreditation they can set their their prices for their tuition wherever they want. And if it turns out to sink their own students, the college pays no penalty for that. So if young people are going to have to borrow money to come to your school, then you should have some downside risk if they're leaving your school in great numbers. I get there will always be some. But in in great numbers. And here's here's what I predict those going to be a distribution of schools. Some are going to have high repayment rights and some are going to have much lower repayment rates, and I think the ones with much lower repayment rates or worth a look at what's going on. That's the kind of accountability accountability very last couple quick things. So we asked our listeners what they would want to ask you and one question was about what kind of cabinet, you would wanna form. And I don't. Mean individual names, but one of your critiques you've made the Obama cabinet as you thought it was skewed on sort of one side of the democratic coalition. Would you wanna cabinet that mostly reflected your views? Or would you wanna cabinet that included a range of views, including some Democrats who are more conservative than you. I would wanna cabinet that believes in change. I would want a cabinet that believes that we can make this government. And this economy work, not just for the rich and the powerful. But for everyone else, I am not interested in having a cabinet full of former lobbyists executives who have made their fortunes off lobbying Washington because that's how many of these executives. That's that's what's made them. So successful at what they've done. So in that sense. I want people who feel the urgency of the need for change and have a vision that we can. Do it. I'd add one more. I want some risk takers. Not just people who Ana kinda preside over in. It's really nice to dress up in the outfit and have ruined call. You mister secretary or Madam secretary. But people who pitch me on what their vision is what they'd like to accomplish. And they'd be willing to get out there and take some risk to do it. Mitch McConnell famously said about you. Nevertheless, she persisted. So people now so we will have tattoos that say, nevertheless, do you have any? Nevertheless, she persisted gear of your own. Yes. I do. What is it? Oh, I have multiple necklaces, bracelets, if multiple artistic renderings, okay in all kinds of different forms in paintings because people have given the Multimedia's gifts. Yeah. So I don't want a good stuff and running for president is hard. So what do you do to unwind FDR at cocktail parties like played bridge? Obama watched ESPN after a day of meeting people in Iowa. What do you do to take your mind off again play with Bailey? The dog, Bruce. I walk him around fresh pond. What kind of dog he's golden retriever? A boy he's ten months old now and never met anybody did love he he kind of grounds me in the world that he reminds you with the priorities and the most important priorities scratching me right there right there right behind me. Oh, wait. Oh, get me on that. When you start scratching one is here hill, he starts leaning until he falls. Who could ask for something better? Well, thank you for having us in your home. And thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. I'm so glad to be here. Now, we're gonna take a quick break. And when we return Michelle and Ross will join me to debrief. I'm Donna worth them. I'm Wesley Morris were to culture writers at the New York Times. And on our podcast still processing we try to understand the cultural pleasures and pathologies of America in twenty nineteen. You know, we talk about everything from why Kevin Hart's non apology is about as Americans apple pie, and what to make of Colin kaepernick's complicated relationship to make. And you know, we've been Marie Kanda my apartment did we're trying to make sense of this cultural moment, and we want you to join us. Subscribe to still processing wherever you get. Michelle and Ross are back now, and we are going to talk about my conversation with Senator Warren. Hello, Michelle Ross eight David so Ross did we get you to sign up for the new agenda of Warren populism. I mean, I think she's always interesting in the sense that she has a well thought out theory of what is wrong with American capitalism, and she has an account of how to fix it that is clearly distinct I think from what a lot of the other Democrats in the field are doing at least so far. Right. I mean, we have this sort of general sense that there's a kind of race to the left in the democratic field where everybody is trying to come out with the most ambitious sweeping proposal, etc. But there's a difference between what Warren is emphasizing. And what the others are emphasizing often. Right. And the others tend to be saying, here's how we're going to spend a lot of money on program X or Y or Z, and she's doing that to some extent with the childcare stuff, but you can tell that what she's most interested in is this sort of how do we encourage slash force. The American business class the big corporations the American capitalists to behave in some kind of more communitarian slash patriotic way. And I have a lot of doubts about the specific plan for how she's going to do that. But it is. I think really distinct from just like, you know, we're gonna do Medicare for all and free college, and, you know, free childcare and so on. What I would add to that. Is that a lot of her stuff? Let's set aside her personally for a minute. I a lot of her agenda is actually popular. I mean, look at the polling on the wealth tax. It is much more popular than some of the the signaling that candidates are trying to do to the left on things like taking away people's private health insurance. And that's why I think it might be influential. This is what I start wondering like how much policy actually matters at all. So again, when I talk about Elizabeth Warren, I'm going to have to repeat this full disclosure, which is that my husband has been consulting for her campaign. He designed her logo, but I see to me in terms of policy, and it's not just that. I think our policies are close to ideal I speak to sort of powerful Democrats all the time who say well, obviously on policy. Elizabeth Warren is the best. But and I think that we can sort of see that reflected in the polling right that her ideas are extremely popular. She has. Is by far the most comprehensive policy vision, you know, with the sort of very clear understanding of what went wrong in sort of what sort of mechanisms you could summon to fix it. You know? And yet you hear from people that she sort of reminds them of Hillary, which they mean in a purely stylistic sense. And it leaves me to wonder what is the salience of policy in a democratic primary or in our politics at all, I think voters don't care greatly about the rigorous details of a policy plan, and in that sense. It doesn't help Warren that much that she's being more rigorous than the other candidates. I think policy though, is really useful for sort of signaling a general world view and a general commitment. And and there I think the challenge for her is that she's signaling the same general kind of thing as Bernie Sanders, especially. But also some of the other candidates who are running to the left, and she's trying to figure out a way to sort of distinguish her signaling from the others. Right. Right. So the way she's trying to distinguish yourself is by saying I have a plan, and I know how to do these things, and you know, what sort of fills me with despair about our politics is that I don't know how much that matters. Well, but maybe what matters is she's signaling that she's the candidate who wants to change the balance of power in the American economy, while other Democrats may be signaling more that they're the candidate of new programs and redistribution, and obviously she has redistribution airy plans, but her distinctive pitch is we need to deal with monopolies we need to tax, you know, deep deposits of wealth. We need to do a lot of regulatory stuff to change how corporations operate, and so I think in a sense that the primaries. Test of do democratic voters. Want more redistribution, primarily do they want free college in Medicare for all primarily, and they don't really care how you pay for it. Or do they buy into Warren's more, you know, we're gonna restructure things so corporations behave differently approach. I think that's that's the distinction. She's trying to draw, but Russ you're doing it as a choice to democratic voters want a or do they won't be and Michelle I think your point is a lot of voters. Don't even make this decision at all right. They make the decision instead based on how well someone is at giving speeches their age their general profile what their past jobs have been. Well to me, it's kind of like the what's the matter with Kansas problem in action. There's been this debate on the left forever, which is due socially conservative, kind of lower middle class white voters and working class white voters vote against you know, not just what condescending liberals like me to be their economic interests. But what they say is their economic interests. You know, what their own kind of economic policy preferences are at least in you know, polls and focus groups, but consistently willing to set those aside because of cultural issues, if you really do believe that something has gone fundamentally wrong in the American economy. You know, here's somebody who is identifying that problem who's been looking at the way people's lives. Go off the rails because of healthcare costs or credit card debt, you know, has just kind of like a much more holistic understanding of what has gone wrong since you know, I don't know or nine hundred eighty and instead. She's trying kind of so valiantly to sailing. Let's make this a debate about policy, and I'm just not sure if she is may be kind of overestimating all while. I mean, I think there's a sense in which if you ask typical Americans to use an overused phrase what's gone wrong with the economy. They would say that wages haven't risen fast enough, and the cost of certain goods has gone up. Right. And so there's a simplicity in responding to those concerns by saying, okay, we're going to make college education free, and we're going to guarantee healthcare, and maybe we're going to cut middle class taxes as some of you know, camera Harris right has proposed a middle class tax cut and Warren on the other hand right now like what is she talking about in the last week or two she's talking about doing a big antitrust crackdown on internet companies. And I agree with you that there's sort of a maybe more sophisticated. Left wing vision in which antitrust looms large. But I think you can understand why voters might be more responsive to the message. That says, okay, you know, your wages seem stagnant. Here's some more money than the message. That says, oh, this company that is by the way, really popular that you use to buy cheap goods and bring them to your doorstep. All the time. This company is actually the problem in we're going to go after them, but hurricane it is her argument is your wages seem stagnant because companies have become too responsive to their shareholders, and they're paying too much to their chief executives, and they don't have this sense of social responsibility. I mean, I think that most people probably intuitively feel that I guess the other thing I would add is it's really early. I mean, Obama was getting crushed by Clinton at this point. So I don't think we should draw too many firm conclusions based on on what the polls are currently saying. But if we're. I'm going gonna ask why she's not doing better. I don't think it's a referendum on her policy agenda, which polling suggests very popular. I think it's much more about who. She is personally. I think their voters out there who aren't comfortable with the fact that she identified herself as a native American in the past. And I think it doesn't help her that she's an intellectual and spent years as a Harvard professor, it's so crazy. She has the most sort of genuine like Horatio Alger story of any candidate in this race. And right and has roots in the mid western working class in a way that I can't think of any other politician of her stature who has sort of a similar backstory. Yep. All that's true. And then I guess the the final thing is I do think we need to again, it's early. But I do think we need to think about sexism here. I mean, who's leading the polls men right Bernie Biden Harris's back there. But but so far it does look like potentially that even in the democratic primary. Maybe Ross would say especially in the democratic primary. Sexism remains a significant issue. Well, and one of the things that's interesting is that you see how many people will say that like Biden is their first choice in Bernie as their second. And part of that is just the maybe that those are the two names that they know think you can't underestimate the impact of name recognition this far out. But part of his what Bernie invited having common, you know, they like nothing policy wise, but they've got something important in common. I will I will stand up for the non sexism. At least for right now. The democratic primary voter Bernie Sanders ran for president and did extremely well. Relative to expectations. He was the runner up in the last primary, and in the sort of historical way, the Republican party worked, which doesn't obviously work anymore. He would have been considered the natural front runner going in Joe Biden was vice president for eight years under a president who remains extremely popular with the democratic base. And Elizabeth Warren has existed. Did as a prominent intellectual which means that she is sort of on the radar screen of people like us, and then as a Senator from the blue state in the union, arguably who's chief accomplishment. The consumer financial protection bureau is it. It's a small thing. And it's it's not sort of something that the median primary voter is going to have front and center the way, Bernie's identity and Biden's identity would be front and center. I mean, I think in many ways Warren looks like a sort of classic Paul Songas type, you know, northeastern liberal academic figure who have whether they're men or women have always had a challenging road. And I don't think we should be surprised that she isn't running away with the nomination at this point. I think the the real story here is that people in our line of work have for different reasons. Underestimated both Bernie and Biden all along and we'll get to buy in a. Future episodes, soon, let's end on the policy stuff. If if the whoever the democratic nominee is we're going to adopt one part of the of the Warren agenda, the new part of the war in agenda, which one would you each rank number one? Universal childcare universe chocolate. Yeah. What about you? Absolutely. I mean, we just did the episode where I explained why I was against her skeptical of universal childcare. And I think it's vulnerable to precisely the issues that you raise in the interview, David. So I'm I'm skeptical of that one I think I think Warren is making a mistake by trying to go after Silicon Valley in full, I think the smart version of what Warren's doing would separate Google, and especially Facebook from Amazon and apple and sort of make a bigger issue of sort of Facebook and Google stronger monopolies and their control over the flow of information, which is something that apple and Amazon don't exercise and say, look, we're not going after all Silicon Valley, we're going after these specific bad actors who have a different kind of monopoly than what Amazon's trying to build. So there there's a longer argument there. But. Basically, that's the piece I think Warren is right to go after Silicon Valley. But I think she and all other anti Silicon Valley crusaders need to do a better job of sort of basically dividing and conquering rather than trying to take on the full tech panoply as it stands Ross. Whenever you go populist. I like to end the segment, so we'll end it here, and we'll be right back with our weekly recommendation. Now, it's time for our weekly recommendation. When we give you a suggestion of something to take your mind off of politics Ross this week is your turn. What do you have for us? All right. So this is a little embarrassing, but I'm gonna do it. Anyway, so many many episodes ago, David you recommended seltzer. I did indeed and I- enthusiastically seconded it I'm a seltzer drinker from like the age of seven, but one of the cells, I drink is the most like Bobo yuppie form of seltzer imaginable. It's called spin drift. And I think they now sell it in Starbucks. So it's sort of like gone, it's gone big. It's gone national. But it's still like this ridiculous boutique kind of seltzer and I'm recommending it mostly because one of the stores where we shop at stopped stocking it, and I started buying some of the other fruit flavored seltzer so spin drift is like, you know, it's selling a hint of lemon. A twist of orange a touch of raspberry of real fruit flavor, and I would drink it. And I would think well, this is good. But you know, I mean real everybody's selling real fruit flavor. I hadn't drunk fruit flavored seltzer from other brands for awhile. And I've been doing it for the last couple of weeks, and they're terrible. They all taste horribly artificial, and whatever magic spin drift works really does taste like real fruit compared to like all not just like the stop and shop alternatives. But like the Perry bought the Perrier fruit flavored seltzer, and it's awful spin drift is amazing. It's a great achievement. So within the world of seltzer obsessive I'm recommending spin drift, including to whoever decided to stop stocking it at the elm city market in New Haven. So I have to admit I'm against flavored seltzer personally. Yes. But I'm in favor of it as a societal phenomenon because most people for flavored seltzer unflavored, and that means that the rise of flavored salt seltzer has caused seltzer to be available in many more stores. So I can more often find my beloved seltzer. But I will always choose an unflavoured over a flavored my personal favorite is Boylan. Because of how bubbly it is. So to me, it's not about the flavor. It is about the carbonation. And I like a lot of it. Michelle have you tried spin drift? Now, I'm not a seltzer aficionado. I mean, I drink it because my kids drink a ton of it, and they call it bubble water. And sometimes when I'm like, really adult I will order bubble water in a restaurant, and then feel ridiculous, David. I just want. You get a spin drift and get the same flavor from LaCroix or wherever and just drink them together. I'm not trying to convert you to spend drift. I. Want to know that I'm not crazy 'cause I might be crazy want me to experience. The I want you to tell me right about the difference. And we can we can reconvene in a future episode and discuss I will do it as a blind taste test. And I will let you know, which I prefer fantastic that's our show for this week. Thank you for listening. We would love to hear your feedback. If you have thoughts leave us a voicemail at three four seven nine one five four three two four that's three four seven nine one five four three two four. You can also Email us at argument at NY times dot com, and please leave us a rating or review in apple podcasts. This week show is produced by Alex Laughlin for transmitter media and edited by lacy Roberts. Our executive producer is Greco. We had help from Tyson. Evans, Phoebe Yoon Persad, Philbrick and Francis Ying special. Thanks to Kaiser health news for use of their studio in Washington. Our theme was composed by Alison Layton. We'll see you right back here. Next week. A flavor that you like in particular. Yeah. Is that private? It's just also embarrassing. My my favorite flavor is grapefruit.

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