20 Episode results for "Kovin"
Alex Durney part 1 | #012
"Like I'm pretty positive. My grandfather's disappointed in me because I went to college to get a college education so that I didn't have to. Just be some rancher or farmer and here. I am doing that but with that comes a platform in a change that we're able to make within this country and I want to be able to help with that. I want to be part of that change. This is the real food. Real people podcasts Farmers come from so many different backgrounds but our profile this week may be one of the most unexpected. I talked with Alex Dernie. She grew up in suburbia. She went to Evergreen State College and studied freshwater ecology very passionate about environmental issues. She was vegetarian but now she manages a ranch raising cattle for beef. Not what you would expect at all. She has a pretty incredible story of how she got to where she is an all the things that she's learned and still her passion for the environment as well as for farming and ranching. This'll be the first of two parts of my conversation with her. We just had so much to cover and she. She brings such a cool perspective with her education and background. So please join me in hearing from Alex Dernie. She's the manager for Kovin ranches in Washington. Great conversation my name is Dylan. Han-kook this is the real food. Real people podcast documenting my personal journey to get to know the real farmers in the real people behind our food here in Washington stinks. I actually ended up starting to go to Idaho State University in my home state and I started out as a biology major. I really wanted to be an ultrasound technician and then I realized I didn't really WanNa work with people very much a or at least I didn't WanNa work with people with like health concerns. I guess I didn't WanNa tell people that there was something wrong with them. I wouldn't be happy in my job and that was the biggest thing I wanted to find happiness in my job. So that's kind of where that journey began. So you're like no healthcare can't do it no healthcare and so then I was scrambling to figure out what I could do. At one point I was actually debating becoming a veterinarian. Is that links us to what I'm doing a little bit right now But then I ended up becoming a cosmetologist so I did hair skin and nails for a little bit and that's great. I'm glad that I have it. Because if something fails I always have that but the first week that I was sitting in my cosmetology class. That was a two and a half year program. I realized that I wanted to be an ecology major. Just come to you at that point I have no idea I was just sitting there and I was like crap. That's what I really want to do. But I did not want to be the beauty school dropout refused and stuck out the two and a half years and I graduated and now I have that certificate. But I'm kind of glad that I had that two and a half years because it gave me the time to decide on a school and I ended up going to Evergreen State College in Olympia which was after the caused the cosmetology so I graduated from the cosmetology in December of two thousand fifteen and then in September of Sixteen. I started evergreen and started in as a freshwater. Ecology major took a bunch of different classes. If anyone knows actually programs if anyone knows anything about evergreen which I mean it has been in the national news or not or great things. The programs there though are amazing because they allow you just to dive super deep into these theories and have a teacher that you can sit there and discuss with them as if they're not your professor Prepare who don't know like Evergreen is built on a totally different philosophy of education. You don't take classes. You're not taking a chemistry one. Oh one or English. You're taking a program that sixteen credits that requires all of your time. And that's all you take. Is that one program each quarter. But that's what allows you to dive so deep into those subjects is you're spending hours and hours talking about these subjects and you're not just doing projects to get you to a test goal. You're doing projects that are actual things that you'll do in day to day life So my very last course at Evergreen. I ended up doing that with a large animal. Veterinarian and so we had two professors at the time. Service about fifty students in this class. And what you're doing freshwater ecology but you are taking a program with a vet 'cause like how do whatever he wanted. Evergreen ecology based That was the main credential for me. Was All of my classes. Need to be needed to be ecology-based. I was also at the time doing undergraduate research with actual stream ecology so that's why can label my degree as a freshwater ecology degree because I have outstandingly more credits freshwater ecology than any other ecology credits but the very last class. That kind of stuck with me. The most obviously was this perennial agricultural class that took with Mike Perez and Steve Shrill and that class taught me so much and the biggest thing that I was drawn to was the animal health aspect of it. Of course I really loved like how the grass or do all these other perennial agriculture's but learning about the animals and how they functioned was just fascinating to me. And then we had the opportunity within these programs. You have this opportunity to go to all of these different places Phil Trips. I hadn't taken a field trip since second grade but I took a filter every single Thursday in that class. But I learned so much. Because we're going in visiting these like model ranches and model farms in Washington and Oregon and getting to see how people do this in the best way possible and real world story world scenario here and one of those ranches that we visited just so happened to be cold ranch It was one of the very first places that we visited and standing on that ranch. That day I definitely wouldn't have expected that I would have been living on that ranch but things changed and I continued through. This class. Learned a lot more absolutely fell in love with it and by the very end my professor was just like hey like you did an amazing job. I know that there's someone who needs some help because their managers leaving due to get you in contact with them. And that's when I got in contact with Fred. And yeah rest is history. Rest is really history. Now I've been there ranch manager for almost two years and in their terms I've changed their life. I guess really. They never had a ranch manager before that would get other things done. It was like they would leave and the bear momentum bare minimum would get done like the feeding whatever but there was never anyone who is like. I'm going to overhaul your marketing. I'm we're going to completely redo everything and make all of this better. They never had that before so for them. This is amazing so Colin Ranch Alvin. Ranch would tell tell us about. What is that actually like? So call then. Ranch was homesteaded in the eighteen fifties by Ignatius Colon which sweet name Me Ignatius coal so he came and at one point in time the ranch equalled over three thousand acres But over the course of time with family and people dying and inheriting and marriages and all these different things. The land slowly just got parceled out smaller and smaller and smaller until we have what we have left which is just over five hundred acres and the is to nine. Oh okay Washington so not eastern a little bit a Western influence here people think ranches they think eastern Washington the highland desert and everything. But there's a lot of rain in western Washington so great place to grow cattle. Most people think of it is actually the dairy portion of for Oregon and Washington But we run a full cattle operation. There the operation has changed multiple times over the years. It's gone from like cow cow calf operations to stocker operations. And what we are in now is kind of what I like to refer to as an intergenerational ranch so those different terms mean like cow calf operation what people say that in the ranching world all the time so Cao Cao Cao cough. How calf operation is where basically your your main thing that you own is cows. You'll bring in either a bull. Oriole do artificial insemination on all of those cows each year when in determination of when you want them to calf and all of that really matters with when you want them to calf to when you want to win those calf's off of their moms and when you want to sell them To get the top market dollar and that's kind of the thing that scares me with those. You're you're subject to the market. Which is kind of scary. So that's a unique thing about ours as we also have the stalker operation built into it. Which is the opposite side. The Stalker is the one who purchases the cow the calf from the cow calf operation and raises them up until they're able to go to and so we do all of that in one so we have our cow calf and we have our stocker that goes to harvest and we also do the direct marketing for that as well. So not only. Do we raise all of our animals but we sell all of them directly to the public. That's what I was. GonNa ask you if you do some of that. But you're seeing all what we do all all the beef is all of us will directly all. Yeah another unique thing about our ranches that we are all grasp at grass finished so we never feed corn or soy or any supplemental thing where raising cattle how they should be raised. It's natural they want to eat grass. It's what their bodies are made today dressed and we just WANNA make sure that they're able to live the best lives that they can so here you've come in some ways full circle from almost from where he started because it was about health stuff and then you went cosmetology and then was still like biology freshwater ecology. But then you're back to animal health and you're still dealing with still doing bodies often living bodies and health. It's it's a lot easier. You tell a cow that she has a problem then to tell a human that they have a blocked artery. So that's kind of why it shows that I mean I still with the direct marketing to the public. We still have to deal with people. But you're not giving them bad news. You're helping them with a service. That right now is kind of hard to come by. So the grass fed and finished holds heavyweight for a lot of people especially within the state of Washington fairly liberal community for the most part and they're all wanting to get away from that they care about the environment. They WANNA see a change I mean a lot of them don't agree with the cattle industry in the first place but we're doing our best and doing it in the most natural way that we find possible. Well that's what order to help those people. That's what I was curious to ask you about though because I you know the assumption that stereotype. You're coming from Evergreen. You're you're coming from an environmental program at Evergreen. The assumption is that you're going to anti beef altogether anti me. You're probably going to be a Vegan or something. I was vegetarian for three years. I you're a vegetarian. Managing a be French. Yes yes what changed so I started out with the vegetarian thing being on the environmental side I ended up finishing out my vegetarianism Because I was anemic and found out that the only way that my body can really absorb iron. Well I'll because we increased other like iron high vegetables and other things like that it just wasn't working and then what they found once. I started eating meat again. Was My iron levels. Went right back up to where they should have been. And so what we realized is that my body cannot absorb iron from other sources. I have to have a meat. Protein in order to absorb iron is pretty common for people it can be. Yeah it's more common than you think it is. Also I mean the veganism thing is fantastic and I celebrate the people that are able to do it but a lot of people aren't able to do it. I am one of those people also. It's just. It's not really what we would call this word. Evergreen is the S. Word but sustainable Veganism isn't sustainable either. We can't produce enough vegetables within this country to feed everyone but it's not sustainable for the aspect of like meat is needed for people that maybe can't afford higher quality vegetables It's also needed for ritual. Things for religions and other aspects of life like people me sometimes really important to their culture and their identity so we can't take that away now that you're in the farming world you probably hear a lot of the other side of the angst and the frustration with Vegan. So s how do you respond to that? Then I everyone has a right to their own. Opinion I guess I honestly I try to remain humble with those people If they're so set in their ways there's nothing I'm going to be able to say to change their mind then being more exposed to the actual farming industry and maybe going and visiting like there are a lot of ranches. I know we allow open visits to our ranch. Anyone can contact us and have a full on personal tour. That's like two hours long on our ranch. If they would like to so that they can truly understand what we do. And so I guess just educating those people But there's no forcing someone to change their views. They have to want change their views. So kind of to me until those people are ready to on a sit down and talk about it and be open minded about it just like they want me to be open minded about veganism or vegetarianism or whatever. It goes both ways You can't shut out the other side just because you've discovered and you think that it's so wrong It doesn't mean that it is it. Yes aspects of it sure are. There are definitely things within the beef industry that I do not agree with but I do agree with how I'm raising my animals and our customers believe in that and that's why they come to us. I just see people getting lumped together so often where it's like. Well your beef. You must be bad and it's like no it's not all the same. That part is really frustrating to me. as far as the Vegan issue goes me coming from the background of farming having grown up in that community. You know where my bias is gonNA come from but ultimately I agree. Hey if somebody wants to be Vegan by all means I have no problem with that but I do have a problem with is when people are hating on other people. Same thing for the farming community. I don't think it's appropriate. If people are just hating on vegans for no reason when they don't really understand you know what I'm saying I do and that's I think that's because I'm able to see both sides coming from this. You know this evergreen background the sustainable environmental like you have to be Vegan. No you don't have to but I I see it from both sides and I see why both sides are angry but there is a middle ground. There is a spot where we can all sit down and talk. We just have to. Isn't it because people want simple answers? Good guys and bad guys. When it's not that simple it makes it so much easier to make things white and black but it's never white and black. It's always gray and we all know that. So why are you so passionate about this about farming ranching and cattle beef? I guess the bigger thing is it's not even I'm more passionate I I don't want it to end and I don't want the good side of it and I guess what you don't want what end I mean. The average age of farmer in our country right now is what sixty three years old? And that's what we would call an wg an old white guy and being a twenty four year old female going into the ranching industry. I am the exact opposite of what someone thinks of as a rancher but we need more people like me because the average age of a farmer is sixty three years old. What do people think is going to happen? Those people are GonNA die their kids. Don't WanNa take it over what's going to happen to the beef industry. There's a Lotta people out there that want beef. No one's producing anymore like that's not great but there is this opportunity where this younger generation is growing up. We realized what has been done wrong in the past. And we're trying to do right and we just need to be given the opportunity to make right. What does it take. What does that look like making it right for? I guess a lot of ranches. It's a it's letting go of the old way of doing things it's expanding your mind. All of us need to expand our minds but expanding your mind and looking outside of how you've done things for years accepting the ideas of your children that are coming in straight out of school that I mean. The agricultural sciences part of universities is dying. It's becoming more soil sciences. And there's a reason for that people don't want to go into the agricultural aspect of it because those people are so stuck in their ways and that's not the way to be you have to be able to flex with how things are changing like so much changing in this world. Things are not the same one as they were when the sixty three year olds ranchers were in their twenty s taking over their family ranch or whenever they took it over like things are not the same and things aren't going to continue the same. We need to be able to change with that. And the newer generation the people who are willing to just be like you know. I'm going to have this ranch. I'm going to try and make it better like even to my own family. I'm pretty positive. My grandfather's disappointed me because I went to college to get a college education so that I didn't have to. Just be some rancher farmer and here. I am doing that but with that comes a platform in a change that we're able to make within this country and I want to be able to help with that. I want to be part of that change. So that's why I'm passionate about it. Is that starting to happen? What what what. What's your take on the new generation? People my age your age even who are in the farming world. They're pushing back towards the local. I feel like that's the overall message is pushing back towards local at one point. That's how you got all of your groceries. You went to your butcher. You went to the bakery. You didn't go to the grocery store and the grocery store just made things so convenient in our lives and yes it is fantastic. I will go to the grocery store as long as they're grocery stores but stepping out in going to your local farmers market and stuff like. That's what this new generation is pushing for and also pushing to get the local products in the grocery store if people want that convenience. Let's make it happen for them. And so I mean that's why we have our beef in our local co ops and stuff so it does give people dot convenience factor but they do have to shop at the local co OP. What about farmers your age or are they doing a good job there? Cool things out there happening. I mean I don't know if they're all doing a good job. I mean we're all GONNA fail. We're all going to succeed all in different times Were still playing the exact same game. We're just trying to play in a slightly different way. We're looking deeper and by looking deeper. I mean we have a lot more knowledge. Now we have the soil Lebanon and soil survey all these different things that were able to gather data from there so much more data and using that makes us more powerful. We're not just going off of. Oh well this worked last year or the year. Before like these are how these aspects were click yes plays a very important role but there is the important role of like also like the raw scientific data from across the world of how to do things and possibly a better way and. I think that's going to be the aspect that kind of shakes up what we're used to in the agricultural yields whether that's farming or ranching so you are the ranch manager at Kovin ranch into China Washington I WANNA head of Cattle. You guys have their anywhere around two hundred and fifty. Wouldn't some people say that's like a huge heard that people shouldn't arming that many animals that's small that's really small I mean their herds out there that are sixteen thousand. That's not unheard of even here in eastern Washington it's thousands of head We just have two hundred and fifty bucks for us. That's what our land is able to maintain and I guess that's a very important aspect our land is able to maintain two hundred and fifty head And that's all we care about. Yes would we love to have four hundred head? That would be fantastic. But it's not possible. On our land we've played with it with stocking rates and utilization and so many other aspects. They've played with and what they come down to is about two hundred and fifty is what our land can handle with keeping it the way that it is but we also have quite a few protections on our land as well. Ninety percent of our land is in a permanent conservation easement with the state of Washington so there are certain sections of our land that are also deferred at certain parts of the year. Were not even allowed to graze them because we need to make sure that the campus and Balsam ru and all of these other native plants are able to go to seed set and actually continue to reproduce and make a healthy landscape in prairie for us And then we go through and with the state of Washington. We actually use our grazing to help those plants so with hitting invasive at very specific times in order to make sure that the Kennison Balsam root can succeed and knock it shadowed out by a taller grass or other aspects very similar to that on so we work very hard to to maintain our land. Not just the amount and our profit at the end of the day. Because you're not gonNA have a prophet if you don't have good land to grow cattle off of it all it all starts at the soil. And that's what I was just going to say you. Keep kind of touching on soil health issues. That sounds like that's kind of a big part of of what you do and your passion. Oh Yes oh yes down to exactly. How Gray's when we're applying fertilizer all sorts of things. It's all timed down to specific moments. So that we can make sure that we're optimizing the prairie itself. 'cause we're managing our biggest thing is that we are managing for feeding a cattles gut. We're feeding the cow feeding the bacteria within their if we don't have good grass we're not feeding the gut very well. We're not feeding that bacteria so we need to ensure that our soil health is the best it can possibly be to optimize that production right there. That also does other things though to write things in was soil health than we have. I mean we have a super healthy pocket gopher population on our property. We have checkered spot. Butterflies we have all sorts of animals. It's we have a healthy ecosystem back to the the Vegan issue because one of the biggest points that's made has to do with the ecological impact and then the environmental climate change carbon footprint. Impact of beef right. How does soil health is a part of this equation? Isn't it very much? A part of the equation and the equation has nothing to do with cattle It has everything to do with management and the management that people deploy on their property. You can have great management and have fantastic soils and fantastic grasses and be able to actually have a higher heard population because of it Or you can have bad management and you could have very few animals and you could just have devastated land and be be causing so many environmental issues. It's all dependent on what that person is doing on the ranch. It has nothing to do with cattle. I mean specifically are ranch. You drive along our highway. You'll see our ranch and then right next to it you'll see what used to be part of the ranch. Twenty years ago that is completely covered. Scotch Broom and people all the time. Ask How do you keep the? Scotch broom off of your property simple. We put cattle on that property. We just graze cattle once or twice a year in that pasture and Scotch Broom never gross It's a great management technique. If it's used properly so I mean we're moving towards something better. That's what I was curious if you when I was asking earlier. If you're seeing signs of change yeah that would be part of it. I mean every operation is trying to look better and be better. This is the real food real people. Podcast these are the stories of the people who grow your food. It really is incredible to see somebody like Alex who came from a background. That didn't have anything to do with. Farming and in fact was some ways kind of opposed to what farming does to embracing it and understanding the potential there at the same time looking at the bigger picture and again. This was just the first half of our conversation next week. We hear the second half where we get into more of what Alex sees for the big picture what she believes the future is and how she views joining this ranch. Cova ranch into nine. Oh as a life changing opportunity. Here's a little snippet of what's ahead next week. I could possibly make a change before I'm thirty and that's fascinating to me and make change with an industry that so many people are hating on right now and want to see die so there you have it again. Alex Dernie she. Is The ranch manager. Kovin ranch in tonight. Oh Washington totally. Leave your stereotypes at the door. I mean that's with everybody on this podcast right and particularly with Alex so pumped to be able to share my experiences getting to know Alex and other people like her here on the real food. Real people podcast. That's what it's all about documenting my personal journey to get to know the the real people behind our food like Alex. Sure would appreciate it if you would subscribe and and you could do that on spotify. You could do that on Apple podcast. Google podcasts and a whole bunch of other outlets out there as well. Whatever your favorite spot is to get podcasts. Also please follow us on social media. We've got more content there as well so find us on facebook as well as twitter and instagram. Real food real people you can find as they're pretty easily just give us a follow. We sure would appreciate it again next week as part two of our conversation with Alex Journey. I'm so looking forward to sharing that with you. Until then thank you for following a subscribing and supporting real food real people the real food real people podcast is sponsored in part save family farming giving a voice to Washington's farm families find them online at safe family farming dot org.
#997 God's Mercy Gives us Life (Psalm 119:77)
"Pre the WORD WITH DAVID. Platt is a resource from radical dot net Saum chapter one hundred and Nineteen Ver- seventy seven. Let Your mercy come to me that I may live. Your Law is my delight. What a grape verse like. Did you hear that first phrase let your mercy come to me that I may live like what a reminder to us in this song that God's mercy is the only means by which we can live when we wake up in the morning are breath is evidence of his mercy? The food we have on our tables as evidence of his mercy. The water we drink is evidence of his mercy. We're surrounded by so many evidences of mercy that enable us to live especially in this pandemic as we see just news headlines every day of sickness and death to be reminded that it's God's mercy alone that gives any one of us life so as we're praying for each other specifically and encourage you to continue sending in prayer requests a radical dot net slash prayer requests specific ways. We can pray for you and your family community your church during these days of pandemic I wanNA give you an update. Actually on some things some one. We prayed for earlier this week so we prayed for Hayden earlier this week. Someone who is diagnosed with Kovin and then had a massive stroke and Basically was has been unresponsive. Totally unresponsive doctors actually said it was not just a stroke heart attack and his wife Nicole and their ten children. Just been asking people to pray and I heard an update just today that said This is straight from Hayden's wife Nicole. But he is reacting which is huge reacting to tubes in his throat and then he was able to squeeze the nurse's hand with both of his hands wiggling toes with his eyes open. Follow the nurse around the bed to both sides looking at the nurse all on command like this is an incredible improvement from where things were a couple of days ago and Hanes wife Nicole just not even able to be in the hospital with him just receiving these updates but what a reminder psalm one nineteen verse seventy seven. Any evidence of life in us is evidence of mercy from God to us and so as we pray for these different needs. We don't have an opportunity always to come back in and hear updates and obviously there's still a long way to go for Hayden but I just wanted to share that with us as we're reminded of God's mercy that enables us to live and for us to continue to press in and pray for Hayden for others like Hayden who are struggling with Cova during these days and at the same time for all of us to be reminded that it's God's mercy that gives us life so God we pray Psalm. One nineteen verse seventy seven. Let Your mercy come to us that we may live. God May Your mercy come to Hayden so that he may live artery. Pray for him. We pray for continued healing. We praise you God for answering our prayers over these last few days. God thank you for answering our cries for granting mercy we pray for more and more and more money for new mercy's throughout today tomorrow God please and we continue to pray for your mercies for Nicole and for their ten. Children gone please. May Your mercy come to them that they may live. They may see your grace. Your glory no your presence your power your love during these days gotta repairs on behalf of all kinds of people who are sick and hurting in hospitals alone right now. God please May your mercy come to new. They may live. They may live and even as most of us are listening to this. Not In a hospital God we praise you for your mercy that gives us life today. We look to you for every breath and we praise you for your mercy that gives us life not only physically but God and even greater who is in the Gospel. She's raise you for dying on the Cross for our sins for rising from the dead for giving US mercy in salvation that we may live live forever no matter what virus may come our way no matter when we may find ourselves in a hospital room no matter what we may face in this life to know that we will live forever based on your mercy so we pray let your mercy come to us that we may live in. Jesus name we pray Amen.
3 top U.S. health chiefs enter self-quarantines over COVID-19
"Three members of the White House Corona Virus Task Force Aren Self Quarantine. Doctors Anthony Cdc Director Robert Redfield an FDA. Commissioner Steven Hahn came in contact with infected individuals as NPR's Mara Liasson reports. The quarantining comes as more White House. Employees are testing positive. The vice president's press secretary and the president's military valet have tested positive other top officials including several scheduled to testify this week in the Senate or self quarantining because they came into contact with the person with Kovin. The White House says the president and his staff are being tested regularly. But attest only tells you if you have the virus it doesn't stop you from getting it.
Getting Out of a Creative RUT! with Craig Colvin
"Hey, folks in this episode I'm talking to my friend Craig Kovin. We're going to be talking about how to get out of creative rut. Hey, welcome back to this week in photo. I am your host Frederik van Johnson today. I'm sitting down with creek Kovin. He is a guy that likes to shoot photos of all kinds of subjects. We're gonna talk about the subjects he shoots. But we're also gonna talk about the creative Rhett, that he finds himself in right now that many of us find ourselves in from time to time how do you manage that? How do you mitigate it? How do you get out of that rut, and Craig Craig out some ideas on how to do that? Craig Kovin man how you doing? Welcome to the show. I'm doing great. It's been a while it has been awhile where you been running the planet. Right. I and I've been all over Palm Springs, photo festival traveling, the globe went to Shanghai for awhile. Yeah. I it seems like I've only been home a week a month that since the beginning of the year go, oh, that's the way it should be right. You want. As well. What stay home you can be there. Anytime you want to visit. It's a big planet. I'm actually looking forward to being home for a little while here. My bet I've, so creativity was, you do a lot of Pataki the, you know, I sort of alluded to, to you shooting a lot and you shoot. You know what a couple of months ago year ago you were shooting a lot. In fact, you gave yourself a self project where you had a self imposed cadence of shots that you needed to get done. Right. Right. So for before we dive into the red stuff. Tell me about that. Tell me about that, that, that self imposed sort of cadence and what you're John Ray of photography is. Well, all right. So we'll start with the genre. I, I mainly do fine. Art nudes in. I do it in outdoor locations and underwater. Those are my two kind of specialties, but Doug do studio is well. And I'm basically trying to, you know. It's not it's very artistic. I'm trying to show the, the human form and how it blends into nature. And that sort of thing. So, yeah, I've been doing that for eight nine years now. Yeah. And love it. Right. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. I am happiest when my fingers on the shutter button, and I have a model, you know, in Iraq. That's right. And you and I sat together in, in Las Vegas ones. Yeah. Or belly fire? Yeah. Yeah. That was. Yeah. It's good. It's interesting to see you work in how you interact with models and how you go for the shop. It's in your minds, you pull itself together. And then you do your you do all your own post pasta post processing as well. Right. Right. Yep. And that's that's where I turn it in from a photograph into art wheel, what my vision is. Yeah. So come up with that, you know, before we transition to the Rudd stuff in looking at some of your work, which will put in the blog post for this episode, but looking at some of your work, it's insanely creative, you got repeating patterns. You've got body schemes all kinds of stuff in there, where where do these ideas come from? Well, so the ideas, they come from a lot of a lot of areas. I get a lot just watching TV commercial, come on. And it will have some interesting lighting or interesting pattern and I'll just take my phone out into a screen capture of it. And. And I have notebooks that I have by my computer by my TV in my car, and whenever an idea happens, I write it down. And if I don't do that it's gone forever. Typically I need to capture it in like within ten minutes when I think of it, long car drives are great for that. I capture, I think of so many creative ideas, when I'm driving just because my mind can wander a little bit. Or when you're, you're not driving. I talked about before exactly letting my car do the driving. Yeah. I, I also listening to music, sometimes lyric song, lyrics will trigger some idea or concept. Yeah. So how do you go from different puts? You know, I I go to any art museum I can go to whether it's, you know, paintings or abstract or whatever I go, and I will often get an idea from that. So is you gotta fill the creative pipeline and let it just kind of roll around in your head for a little while. While. How do you go from that from from, you know, snapping that photo of the screen or whatever wherever the epitome comes from how do you go from that to hiring the model taking, you know, taking the model to specific location, getting assistance, shoot him, you know, because it's not just oh, I had an epiphany of, you know, this thing, how do you how do you make it happen? Well, so that's, that's, that's where the hard work comes in. I, I believe that my well my best photos I've ever taken are the ones that took the most effort and a lot of times that's because I'm doing all this upfront planning and. I'm thinking more about the concept than just being location in grabbing a shot. Yeah. So there's a lot of thought that goes into it, so I will, I'll sometimes spend a month collecting props, if I need them finding the location doing scouting and then. When I get the model and we actually, you know, go to do the shot it if that's the easy part in it's already has been in my head for, you know, weeks in this as a matter of, executing that shot. Right. Correct. Yep. Yep. And, and sometimes, well, I, I've never had one that was exactly what's in my mind, but you get real close the more effort I put into it, the, the closer. They get. So let's, let's talk about the rep thing right in being stuck in a rut, we've all been there where you, you said, you might question for you is you put yourself on that cadence of shooting, a lot, you know, making cheer you shine a lot to keep your trigger finger exercise in your your brain fresh on the stuff in lighting. Did you burn out, you know, doing was at the was that what happened or did you run out of ideas like what, what happened? What led to the writing was a little of both? I was shooting a whole lot, especially underwater stuff because I need to shoot that when it's warm out and I was doing how eight to ten shoots a week in underwater. That's a lot. It's a lot, right? And so I got a little burned out on that. But a lot of it is. I tend. To work with themes in my project. So, you know, I have my body scape themes. I have my news in the rock. The eam. I have my black and white stripe themed, and I it whenever I get to the end of one of those kind of, you know, I've reached the limit of what I can do with it. I always go. Where do I where do I go next with this? Where do I push it? And I've gotten to the point where there's just I can't think of what that next step is. And so that, that kind of stops me. The other other issue I've had is Mike plans by visions have gotten a lot more grandiose. Aggressive agree. Yeah. So I like I said my best photos of the one I put in the most effort. Right words that were hard. And so I said, well, I wanna make some more great photos, but they're, they're turning into like almost many movie productions and that's daunting. And it kind of it paralyzes me. So, yeah. So I haven't that kind of happened in October. Is when the, the rat started. Yeah. I didn't shoot it all from October till February. Oh, which is, you know, longest period I've ever gone. And then I've started slowly getting back to it and trying not to just do some, some simple shoots instead of the big grandiose things. Yeah. What, what kind of simple shoots? Are you are you looking at? Well, just taking a model out to the beach, or, you know, there's local mount Diabolo here in the bay area has some great places to shoot in the rocks. So I've been doing that sort of thing. And then just simple underwater stuff just here, and they're not, you know, I. You may wanna week at most. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So, so you're, so you're slowly making your way out of the rut, you're not still in the rut. Or do you feel like you're still in it? And you still come no-man's lane. I'm still a little bit in the I don't know what, what series to work on next. I have some any in some ideas for some one off shots, which I am working on. Travel hasn't helped with that. I'm not around enough to do that. The other the other issue that kinda also triggered all this is I lost my studio with what happened. How did the rents here in bay area? Just got too expensive. I was sharing it with several other photographers in. They both quit. So I had to I couldn't afford it on my own. Yep. And so that's also kind of slowed me down, because a lot of the ideas, I have our studio shoots. So that just adds a have to go. Find a studio to rent I have to lug on equipment down. Hit lasting last time. I did that I think I had fifteen boxes worth the stuff I had to. Leapt into the studio. Right. Doesn't that sound fun at all? It makes me you know hesitant to do it again. Yeah. Yeah. I can see how that would get in the way. But it's interesting, you know, things shift you. You get into this pattern of, you know, like you're saying, you know, you have the studio, you have a concept. And you know what the what the process is to execute on that, that photo that pattern gets interrupted. I e studios no longer in the mix. And you gotta refigure that out, then you gotta travel on top of it in family, and Elvis, other stuff going on. And it's in the way, right? Yeah. Life gets in the way. Yeah. So I'm just wondering how do you. How do you people that are watching this, that are in that, that rut, is it just baby steps, like what's the best way to get out of it? Well, so in the past, I've had this in the past, you know, every year, I have some period of time, remnant rut. Unreal. And a lot of it is. To get out of it. I go through these notebooks that I have. Right. And I have lots of great ideas. And I just whichever one you know. Well, when I do I'll go through the notebook and I'll wait a week, and whichever ones, I still remember from that those are the ones I'm going to go shoot 'cause they, they stuck with me. Yeah, yeah. And I tried to do the little simple small ones. Yeah. To start. It's. Most creative rats the way I get out on his shooting my way out of. Yeah. Just knowing shooting and not, not trying to do any grandiose just to shoot for fun. Trick yourself. You know, a lot of people were saying are not a lot of people I was reading this book. I think it was a book. It was some sort of media was consuming. It was. But it was talking about how to book things right? Yeah. They used to make a minnow but they were talking about how you can overcome procrastination because at that plagues a lot of us, you know. And I think that directly relates to being in a creative rut, the procrastination piece of it, or I'll do it later, or, you know, feel like doing it or whatever but one of their tips was to trick your brain by doing a little bit by saying, hey, I'm only like it's like the garage you need to clean up your garage, and you don't five meets at right? You don't feel like doing it. So you give yourself a small manageable task. Like you know what? I'm not gonna do this whole garage today, but that shelf, I'm gonna do that shelf, but then the trick comes in is like, psychologically, your brain wants to do it all. So once you get your brain, you trick your brain into doing a little bit is gonna wanna do more saying with I think same with creativity. Right. Once you trick like you're doing your. Tricking your brain by saying, I'm gonna do these smaller projects, and then those will expand and I know you personally. Yes expand and then pretty soon, you know, you're putting your shooting circus allay or something. Right. Right. Right. Right. It is. It is. It is a trick. It's what I'm going to these shoots with no expectations. And then while I'm there, the creative, juices, start flowing and I go. Yeah. That's where I come up with the idea of our, here's, here's the direction. I'm gonna go next. Yeah. Yeah. It's exciting. So, so where I if if it's a curve. Right. The whole the whole creative rut thing is a curve in, you know, down here at the bottom of the curve is like, you know, I don't ever want to see a camera again. I don't care. I'm gonna take up. I'm gonna take a golf or or building ships in the bottle or whatever. Right. You know, where in up here is ultimate creativity? You're just nailing it. And, you know where are you on that curve? I am at the bottom was in February. So I'm I'm climbing up that curve. I'm probably about halfway up right now. Yeah, yeah. So I'm hoping with you know after after I finished I have a couple more trips to do. And then I'm back for a couple months, and I'm hoping that's really win. I'm gonna it'll I'll be back at the peak. Let's see. That's that's interesting. You say that, because, you know, for a lot of people to break out ruts is like, you know, we say it's the whole tricking your brain thing, but a lot of people will say, you know, to get out of a creative read. It takes travel, you know, get yourself out of your current rut routine in that sparks the creative juices gets things going, you get ideas in now you're back, you know, Frank, but that for you because you're traveling over time. Well, mainly because I shoot nude models and I don't do that, when I'm traveling. So I do street photography. I do you know abstract architecture photography. And I do enjoy that when I travel, and I do a lot of that and that does help just because I'm shooting writing him anytime as I said, anytime might fingers on the shutter button. Right. It it's a good thing. So, but I I'm not focusing on, you know, the type the John or that I like and really where I really want to be creative in have, you know, have all my ideas, have you ever have you ever considered a experimenting? Now, you said you do street photography from time to time and all that. But have you ever considered diving in deeply like you are with the new photography into another genera, a completely different genre? Will I I kind of did that with the underwater? I, I I discovered that in, you know, it was about a year year and a half ago, two years ago now. And. I did the first one, and then I was, you know doing. That's all I wish shooting was underwater. So that was kind of a, you know, but it but it did involve models and it did involve. Right. I could still kind of use my same, John. Just a different venue. So I, I like working with people. So I don't know if just doing street, photography, or travel, or in landscape or out, like I don't have the patience for wildlife. I know that. And I like sleeping in so landscapes. Well, there's always magic hour. It happens twice a day. So I always think of doing landscape photography in June. When you know, the longest days of the year, so you have to get up at three AM to go get sunrise. And then you're up until ten o'clock at night doing. Sunset grand. Yeah. Very little sleeping in between very cool. Well, you are a no, you are on the docket for f sixty four live. That's coming up, right? Teaching if give us a sneak peek into what, what you're workshops going to be on. Well, I still need to come up with that building. Like. One of them is going to be my lighting human form, which I have the video praying video on Twitter. Yep. Trip school. And so, I'll be doing that as one of the sessions indoors. And then the other one I'm leaning towards doing outdoor session. And you know photographing in harsh conditions. I love it. I love it. Yeah. I'll be, I'll be auditing, your class just so you know. So, you know, auditing you are you? A one of the organizers, but I can still audit. I'm just saying. What about the, you know, the a lot of talk has been happening. You know, over the last, let's say three years, let's call it about gear in different kinds of gear, and DSL, ours versus Murless in now, Fuji, just launched the Jeff x one hundred as one hundred megapixel camera that everyone's lessening after, you know, all these different things what, what does critical golden shoot with, like, what, what is your go to Canada kit to make those amazing images that we see in the portfolio. So I should with three different candidates for my, the model photography outdoors and studio. I'm using a cannon five day. Mark three and the underwater is a cannon five d Mark to and the only reason for that is because I was able to get housing for a cannon fighting to really cheap. You're just saying you're sheep. Right. Otherwise, right. The housing for my Mark three costs more than the cameras. No, it's ridiculous. And then for all my travel photography. I'm using an Olympics EM one, no microphone cards get so, yeah, I, I love the lightweight miss of it. And yeah. So that's what I'm using whenever I'm doing traveling. So a you know, like I said, the beginning, there's gonna be a gallery, obviously, if you're watching this on YouTube, then they'll be Lincoln, the description over to Craig's Craig's portfolio, or the blog post whatever, but in the blog post, I have a bunch of your photos in there in a link to your website, where should people go, if they wanna start learning when you, it's a twofold question double edged sword here, if they want to learn about you in the stuff that you're working on. But then they wanna start doing the kind of graffiti in experimenting with the kind of tiger fee that you do because not many people can do artistic new Pataki without coming off, as a cre-, or United's ingenuous in some ways, especially in these days, right to had what, what's the best way for people that? That are interested. But it frayed to get hashtag metoo outta they dive into it. The probably the best way to find meet ups in your local area. There are ones that do you know nude photography fine art nudes, and some of them are very, very good. You know, do very good lighting some summer, not so good. So you need to dry out, right? I, I have been doing for the past year. Now, some private lessons for people, so an option. Contact me and I can help you with that. Yeah. So. That seems like a really good option to be honest with you. So to do like the one on one so the student you as the instructor. And then a model maybe a makeup artist or whatever. But you have that, that small team with you acting as sin say in in taking person through the roof. I think for this kind of photography, I think I would go for that more than being in a group environment. If you're gonna learn a whole lot by. And I will travel to Utah or or Las Vegas or here in the bay area for that sort of thing. I've also done it online where they just direct them on how to hire a model and then. I've actually faced time while they're shooting now. Nice your virtual. They're like OB one. Use us. Exactly use the focus Luke. So, you know, there's a lot of different options than I kinda cater it to whatever everyone's not necessarily local. Yeah. I keep hoping I I've tried on a couple of my travels, I've had people in the location where I'm going, but the timing just as a workout. Right. I know I I'm only there for a short period of time, but that the others are very, very options. Levitt Levin m people if people wanna do that, and sign up for a one on one training session with you either virtually or in person. The contact information on your website, where where's your website Craig Melvin photography dot com. Cool. That's kovin. CO L V. I N and also in Instagram Craig Melvin photo. That's where I post on most of my work. I, I tend to post quite regularly there more so than the website gets updated. And you can private message be there. Drank message me. That's not your, your acceptable rank misery. Yup. Yup. Accessibility helping people with me. I, I enjoy the teaching portion of it a line. You learn so much when you're teaching right? It's, it's weird. Even when I do presentations, whenever I if I do the same presentation fifteen times every time I learned something different about the subject matter that I'm teaching is the right. How does that work? No. It wasn't that if you really wanna learn a topic teach it to someone. And you will, you know, you'll internalize it 'cause the last questions that you may not be Lancer, and you'll have to fill in that blank for the next time you're teaching. That's cool. All right. Creek cove and thank you so much for coming on, man. I oh you some beers. So you and I, we live here for at least three or four to start. Yeah. So we live relatively close together. But you you've been on the road and I've been busy. So we'll make it happen to them. Cool. Craig Melvin creek, Kovin dot com. Right. Is the we'll all right man. Take care of your day. You, thanks. Jeez.
Daily - 2021 NASCAR Schedule Details
"The final lap with Kerry Murphy is is on okay. Yesterday a big day for the twenty twenty, one Nascar scheduled they released it slowly. But surely throughout the day track by track kind of a a brilliant social media move here are the highlights where the cup series. Well, first of all, if you're near Chicago and Kentucky, they have been removed from the Cup series schedule. So bad news I now the good news a total of six road courses are going to be running including the state of the art facility at the circuit of the Americas in Texas Oh. Cool. Road America in Elkhart Lake Wisconsin xfinity series of courses run there for years. Indianapolis. Motor speedway's Infield road course is now on the schedule New ovals include Nashville superspeedway Bristol Motor speedway, of course, not new, but they will undergo a conversion to a dirt track for their march event. The All star race is going to be moving to Texas Motor speedway on June thirteenth Darlington is going to see two race weekends in May and September getting their second date back. Of course, they did have that already this year because of Kovin Atlanta Motor speedway getting a second date once again. And July and I'm hearing they're going to be doing a replay of at some point. So we'll see how that works out, and of course, everybody's wondering about the the playoffs. What's GonNa Happen there, right. The ten race cup series playoffs remain mostly unchanged with, of course, Texas and Kansas swapping their weekends. So there you have it the twenty twenty one nascar schedule released yesterday make your plans. Final Lap.
Covid hasn't interrupted Alaska's resupply lifeline from Seattle, and woe if it does
"The coronavirus pandemic has served to remind many of us how much we depend on strangers staying healthy. So we can restock our cupboards and go about daily life. That's especially true for Alaskans who depend on a Marine cargo lifeline from the Pacific northwest for the majority of their goods correspondent Tom Bonzi checked in with some less well known essential workers there in the tug and barge business most days of the week in ocean going tugboat heads out from puget sound going north to Alaska with a heavily laden barge in tow. Captain Pete Ericsson is at the helm of the Western titan tug in the western Toba Company Flea. Traffic we've got. Our bug strike. Now. We'll be building up about nine and a half knots using Rosario. He checks in with the Coast Guard as he and his crew set out from Seattle bound, for Ketchikan, Juneau and other southeast Alaska ports. tied. The barge, they haven't toe stacked forty feet high with containers full of all the things sold in grocery and hardware stores plus construction equipment vehicles and last but not least alcohol it's good to be a part of the system. That keeps the area where you grew up and raise your family supplied. Erickson says, dealing with the coronavirus has raised a few challenges. The State of Alaska required companies to file a plan for how they'd keep their crews healthy as well as how to avoid spreading the virus into small towns with limited medical care. Russell Shrewsbury is the vice president of Western towboat in Seattle. He says one big. Change is that tug and barge crews now have to stay on board throughout their voyage contact with people on shore must be minimized generally the guys who go the store get up to Alaska and resupply produce in any of that kind of stuff we can't do that now or they would go talk the interaction they would have with the people in the offices in the board and stuff is all been basically done over telephone now they can. Hide. Anybody Shrewsbury advises his crews to avoid contact besides family members when they're home between voyages the tug company is not enforcing a strict pre-departure quarantine ordering Cova. Testing some northwest seafood companies did that with seasonal workers they sent to Alaska this year or we're not gonNA chain anyone to their homes. We just want people to be really smart about today interact with because the implications could have on the supply chain for southeast, Alaska could be devastating. If we started having the virus run through the tugboats and people were getting sick so far. So good says Shrewsbury other marine cargo companies on the Alaska circuits cook inlet tug and barge and centerline say they to have not had crew members get sick with the virus at sea. The local Kovin incident commander for the city of Juno tells us the barges never stopped coming and we don't want them to stop coming in Alaska a lot of. Towns are geographically isolated without a road connection to the outside world resupply comes either by airplane, which is very expensive or by see the relative isolation helped keep cove away for a good while. But now our interconnected economies and the relentless nature of the virus are converging the Cova case count in Alaska soared recently partly, that's due to outbreaks and seafood processing plants and on board a factory fishing trawler based out of Seattle I'm Tom Bonzi reporting.
073 Champions Revealed
"Kovin watch did it did it. Did it did it. It'd it's still there. We're keep watching. Yes keep watching the Kovin because it's still there but the only thing in the world apparently think it's getting better right. I don't know I don't know I quit listening to any sort of information goes have you? Doesn't that doesn't really matter at this point. See but you're the guy who always like investigates things and researches nonstop until you're insane what do you want to know What's what's the latest like. What's the latest on? Covert is getting worse getting better. What are each state? What's like the state's going to do? Because isn't trump like supposed to it out to the states that each governor and say like you can open your state if you want right the answer to all of those questions as nobody knows. That's troubling yeah. I don't think anybody knows anything. And it's just a bunch of politicians and this is a political drama this point. Would you call it a bunch of Hullaballoo? What's that called Hubbell? Blue Blue Hullabaloo bullets. I mean I don't I don't think it's Hullaballoo. I think it's a serious thing that is affecting people political side of things like is that a bunch of Hullabaloo. I mean it. Sure seems a little extreme at this point but you know we don't know what it would have looked like if we hadn't had done all these measures or if we quit doing these measures we don't know nobody knows anything just like everything else in this world. Nobody KNOWS ANYTHING. Just a bunch of people make. Oh Buddy knows what's true man? No but he knows my cell Rollo Scar. Yeah doesn't scar seeing that from lying on Aruba member churches here useless? So this is episode number seventy three. Christopher holy cow seventy three and we're still recording remotely. I think that'll be our last remote broadcast. Probably I would agree with that. I think we need to get face to face. I'm missing the whole SNARF Talk Studio. The atmosphere doesn't feel the same to me to do it this way weekend. Ignore it's definitely. Like funner not necessarily funner. But it's easier to go do it in the studio yet when we're doing it this way it's always just like okay redoing us now or what are we doing this. You know what I mean. It's just like yeah. That's just more complicated. But I know we have been recording here on Saturdays and finally tonight Marley's like what is going on with the sole Saturday thing because it's really annoying to me. Why go anywhere everyday? Day is the same now. Officials wants to do stuff on Saturday. Nights like have a fire like go. Sit Out by fire might do that last night. I don't know because it wasn't Saturday. In the park feeling lacked a photojournaling like wishing it was the fourth of July. I have no idea Chicago. Man What a great band. It's amazing that I got all those lyrics close even I love Chicago. He's a great brand. It's one of my favorite bands and well. I don't know about favorite bands. But they make they have one of my favorite songs which is twenty five or six to four S. That song is a national treasure. I think it's in the are they in the rock and Roll Hall of fame because I believe they are. They not in the hall of fame. I give up on life. Well wait first of all the rock and Roll Hall of fame as a freaking joke because they put anybody in there. You don't have to rock and roll. You could be in our NB artists and they'll give you a they'll put you in the rock and Roll Hall of fame. It's a joke. I don't like it it's A. It's been Cleveland Right. Yeah and believe so Cleveland who makes sense because Cleveland rocks? Cleveland does rock according drew Carey. I've never been to Cleveland I have either. I've never been to most places in Ohio. I've only really driven through Ohio. I've been to Cincinnati a bunch of times. That's the only place I really meant. Really here. Columbus Columbus Ohio's really nice. I've been somewhere in Ohio and I don't remember the there's a to a police in Ohio. There's a air force museum in Ohio that I went to. That's free to the public and it's like four large airport like hangers huge hangars. That they have with a bunch of historical planes and they go through from like when like the rights created flight or a plane all the way up until like present day and they go through like World War One World War Two Korea and Vietnam like every era of planes and it's really cool and they have Air Force One. They're the one that Jfk died on and they swore in Lyndon Johnson and they you can walk through it but it's got like Like I duNno like plastic up. So you can't get into the seats. It's just like one really narrow hallway but as you walk through the plane they give you little like pictures and a little paragraph of what happened in that exact spot. It's really cool. I liked it. It's completely free era. Aero Aeronautic. Aeronautic museums aerospace museums. Aerospace Aerospace but airplane museums are the best types of museums. It was all into one that was down by. It's in Florida We went down on our way back from Fort Walton Beach. We stopped there and it was a it was an air force base museum and they had like all these different fighter fighter jet decommissioned fighter jets had a SR seventy one blackbird outside helicopters. They had probably twenty five different airplanes. It was really really cool and then you go inside and they had a bunch more airplanes ahead like an f. at and stuff like that in there yeah and there was actually a a graduation ceremony going on so it was kind of awkward because we walked in to like. Yeah you can come on in By just wanted to let you know. There's like a graduation ceremony going on like a military graduation ceremony. And we're like so. We just like walk around while they're doing the graduation it's not. It wasn't a huge place the inside and I'm like yeah. You can just walk around. So we're like walking around but this is like a legit graduation ceremony like people's families are there right. And then there's just like our kids running around like ripping stuff off the walls and beaver. They kill us. We just need to like leave this place. Wouldn't you think they have to where they have room? That had like every type of military gun from like World War One to present. It was awesome. That is awesome. That was cool. Weapons bows cool. Calm guns Chris while they are guns. It's a weapon while their guns as well weapons and guns you don't call them guns in the military. Okay get ready to was ven diagram and gone. They would overlap. They will in the exact space that what what was in that room. That's true I'll I'll give you that. The wards would be over on the website. Did you just say sword? Yeah and on the gun side. Outside of the weapons side would be like nerf guns or like Nerve guns like t t shirt closer not leptons but they are guns cannons. That counts as a gun. It does it. Does kinda again also like those rubber band guns? Yeah but those are weapons. Think so you'll shoot. Somebody's eye out with them. Yeah I don't think you're out at her but it won't shooter. I am well. You could definitely spoke somebody up with a t shirt cannon. I hear you if you if you don't off those things you got a real problem you're taking one from emptied away directly in the face. You're getting T. shirt it to the hospital t-shirt the hospital because they are wadded up. Like the T. Shirt has rolled up so art art. It's have you ever been on the receiving end of a t-shirt gun? Never I've wanted for in your life. I've wanted to be so bad and I've always assumed that it over me. I've never caught one but bennet please. That's what I meant shots. Yes I've seen him shot. I've been around him when were shooting into a crowd. But I've never like you said on the receiving end of a t shirt cannon. I've never been on the receiving end of one. Well you were in the crowd while whilst one was being fired at correct yeah. It's pretty sweet. But they're basically just like big pneumatic. They're like potato guns. Did you ever be here when Ed I have? Yes but I. I haven't I haven't made them out of the ones where you put some sort of explosive gas inside. I've never done that. It's only been Like air pressure impressed air. Yeah I've done it both ways The air pressure ones are a lot easier funner. I feel like dangerous. Yeah. I don't feel like they're that dangerous but we used to make like Ether ones all the time where weed. Spray ether into one side. Have you ever build a tire with ether absolutely? Yeah we used to do all the time when I was really younger on the farm. Yeah I haven't done it in years but we used to do all the time. Stainless is it. I would I would think so. Yeah what if you put too much? I don't think it's that dangerous. I don't think I nothing I whenever I did it. I don't remember recall being like worried for my safety really should have been. You GotTa really have you got to have two people. That's the thing can't do it by yourself. You gotTa have somebody on the ready with the air because they got to do it right at the big moment I agree. I've seen it done. I've never done it myself but it looks dangerous to me back. When I was in high school working on the farm there is a couple people. We know that work there. There are a little older than me. We used to take like ether or anything. Flammable and like spray big circles on the concrete or driveway or something and then light it on fire and then have like a fight inside the ring of. Fire. You've done security stream things as a child. I was just sitting watching. Actually I was just always sitting in front of the TV watching every show. Yeah well that's all dame that works to look what it did for you here so we have a correction that I just received tonight and you argued me. Oh you argued the last episode about this. What I was talking about because I said you can get you would get potash from burnt ash nine. I don't think I don't think that's how it works. And we but we were talking about burning corn stalks so that is not right. I was not right about burning corn stocks but would ash absolutely gives you potassium potash. So if you burn would you can add that to a garden or whatever and you will get potash from it which is just basically potassium cornstarch fly ash does not have fly ash is coal. It's like it's after you burn coal and you get flash from that because they transport that up and down the river all the time from a lot of the refineries around they'll bring fly ash down. They actually transported down south to a lot like it goes to Texas a lot or Louisiana to asphalt plants and they add it to the asphalt making process. Yeah I used to have A. I know a guy who worked at the fly ash syllabi up. I'm Renwick Renwick road. They must have coal fire power. Plant up there some well. There used to be a coal fire. Plant right there at Larkin route sex right by the brain roadblock in NAM where I used to work that might be where he worked. I don't know he was by lockport somewhere. Yeah it used to be coal fired. They just like three years ago or four years ago. They transitioned it to all natural gas so there is no coal power. Plant up there anymore. Natural gas nothing natural about that gas. Well I mean it comes from the ground right. Yeah but yeah. There's no there's no coal power plant up there anymore. So Cole on the river kind of need an efficient process for Compressing and storing natural gas. If we could do that. It'd be great. The problem is you have to like. It's under extreme pressure. Natural gas to get it to liquefy. It'd be under like extreme extreme pressure and it's extremely extremely cold when you get into that pressure succeed like what's the difference between LP and natural gas ones Natural gas once liquid propane. I understand that but I mean like what's the difference between propane gas I mean. Isn't it the same thing No it's not it's refining. What's not must be refined differently. Like natural gas isn't find it all right. I don't know I I don't know I just know that they're not the same. That was really hoping you would come. Ready FOR THIS QUESTION. On the PODCAST. I mean all I ask of. You is to have every answer to every question I've ever asked and you can't do that and I don't even know why I mean. Why do I ask questions anymore? Because you can't answer them. Natural gas is made up of seven gases several gases including propane butane Athen And consists and mostly consists of methane. Right propane is part of natural gas in its raw state. It is a hydrocarbon separated from the other gases at gas processing facilities the propane that is separated during this process stored and sold us. Propane propane dealers for use by consumers. The comparison propane natural gas is widely used in applications for. We know that I see. So it's basically just a further refinement of national guests along with methane and everything else. It's calm. Yeah it'd be a refine it's more desirable because it's easier to compress into a liquid state so therefore easier to transport right who remote locations where there's no pipelines right which is what they do. Yeah so I'm glad I've done a whole lot cheaper. I wish I had it. Isn't that crazy? How like a raw product is cheaper? Well now I guess it does make sense. Now that I just say it out loud because refining things cost money so it would be more money for the refined product. Yes so natural. Let's natural gas is fifteen dollars will purchase approximately one point zero three million. Btu's of energy. So that would be equivalent to eleven gallons of propane at two dollars and fifty cents per gallon so twenty five to thirty dollars. Worth of propane is about fifteen dollars worth of natural gas so it's almost half as expensive good to know. I don't have a natural gas where I live now. Nowhere by me. It would be much more expensive for me to try to get natural gas because they'd have to pipe it to me which is ridiculous so I get pro. Both considered green fuels. Just because when you burn doesn't create your I guess they're low emissions for very clean fuels low emission. That's why like it's really good thing that we have such a plethora of natural getting the United States and Canada are like the greatest natural gas deposits them Earth Realty. Is that what they do? They get natural gas from fracking fracking and natural gas thing. It's it's definitely a by product that isn't that bad because you know I mean I don't know come on. I thought you were going to have the answer. Chris Yeah I mean when you FRAC or when you get access to like Oil Underground there's going to be like the posits of methane gas just naturally down there. Tell you that's a byproduct an oil under time which there was there was actually a time which propane or natural gas was so cheap like the propane and natural gas urge extremely extremely cheap. The only cost of those fuels literally in the transportation of those feels right so if like most of the propane was coming out of Canada for example and this was several years ago. Propane was really really cheap like it has really really cheap for the last several years and there was a while ago where you could buy a semi load here for the farm for like Twenty Five. Thirty five cents a gallon. Something really religious but that was literally all transportation costs if you're in Canada where they're producing it. It was actually a negative cost of there are paying people to take it. Are you joking me? That's a thing. Oh 'cause those who is a byproduct it's a byproduct of the oil extraction so literally. They need to get rid of it. But so nobody Hanada's using propane. Apparently no I think they were. They were just. They have very very close as close to that. Where the shipping you know where the production was taking place that there would be a charge. You wouldn't get it for nothing wherever the trucking cost is from that production facility the trucking handling you'd pay that's crazy basically. Yeah that's unreal. Well there's your fuel talk on smarttalk you've we've just covered the gamut on all of fuel consumption in our the Greater Grundy County area in Canada. I it's on my mind right now. 'cause I just bought a propane forklift which I've never had before. I've never had anything that ran on. Propane like a machine you know. Ria and I bought one the a lot of some of the forklifts. We'll take either gasoline or propane but this one which is what I thought I was getting and then I got it and I realized it only takes propane. You've never ran pain before so now you get it by Tom. Yeah I I've I've ran ran one before I just. I never had one so now I do so I I got. It came with a tank but you have no fuel gauge essentially so. I mean it takes with fuel gauges on them but the one. I have doesn't have a fuel gauge on it so I was driving around and it just died ran out of fuel on. I'm like damn and it was on a Saturday. Nothing was open to get fuel for it. So yeah that's annoying. But that's aggravating. You gotTa have more than one cylinder. Yeah I'm going to get another one good idea. I think that's I'm actually going to get A. Oh so I can just hook it up to my big propane tank and fill it and you just drive around dragging a hose around. No you get a hose that you're hooked to your big propane tank and you hope to your little tank not straight to the forklift right. Yeah no I'm going to have a long hosts straight big tank but he just drive around with the with the forklifts go far away. It's sucks because I get I keep a bunch of extra hose rolled up around you know. Just put a hose reel on the forklift. It's not hard just like when your kid. Did you ever try to go snorkeling in like a swimming pool with like a garden? Hose like I can go down to the bottom of the garden. Hose nope no. It does not work. It does not work. You saw that a looney tunes and thought you could do it. I think everybody thought that I mean I'm pretty sure up until this point right now is what I'm finding out that you can't. Yeah that's what made you thought you could write down there with. The host does not work. Why not just to restrict the pressure? The pressure down. There doesn't work like when you if you've ever gone senile old timey scuba divers with the helmets. Yes they have the hose. That goes up right. Yeah but you have to have a pomp you're going to have it's GonNa pump air darn constantly. Yes so that's why they're always always bubbling out on helmet because they're pumping down. Yeah and that's like the corps of Engineers says divers that go down with those type helmets. I mean they're still like kind of I mean they're updated obviously but it's a helmet like that and it vacation areas to called SNOOKA. Why it's like a mix between stir snorkeling and scuba so they've got like a little area The cleared spot in the bottom of the ocean floor. And he put the helmet on your shoulders and they just pop keep a full hair and you just walk along the bottom of the ocean and you don't need a license or anything to do it you don't you don't go down there because they're gonNA fucking asshole they don't give a shit that's good. Well the core divers I feel for them guys like that's a crazy thing because it's all considered like Blackwater diving you know because the Illinois waterway is not clear. It's not clear water so you can't see anything once you get under the water and that seems terrifying to me. Well I've been in a couple of situations like that I am a certified scuba diver myself. Yes and when I did my My checkoff dives my What do you remember what you call my open? Water certification dies. I did Corey N. P. in Kankakee and a couple of things suck about that. A is you know when you get on like fifty seventy feet deep in. Illinois. The water is extremely cold. Yeah like fifty degrees really really really cold so you gotta wear Super Super Thick wet suits and then anywhere that you have any exposed skin. It just immediately burning. It's terribly cold but then when you surfaced. It's eighty five degrees outside or ninety degrees outside doing in the middle of July. So you're got this eight millimeter wet suit on or whatever But it is so you go out in the morning and it'll be pretty clear but once all the diver start getting out there now it gets so murky you cannot see anything in fact the only way you can really navigate is by compass and that's part of the dive part of your training. Is You gotTA learn how to navigate by compass. Yeah that's crazy. Yeah these the core divers. I mean they've told me like you. Just get down there and it's basically like closing your eyes. A lot of them said they'd do close their eyes because it's just too hard to try to focus on anything. They've got lights and stuff but it doesn't matter it you can't even see the hold their hand up and you can see your hand like right in front of your face but if you move it out at all you're not going to see it so a lot of close. Their eyes wasn't accord and they just train everything by feeling. In a one of the guys I used to work with was a diver. And he said that he's literally standing on a piece of concrete and then he he likes took one step back and it was like a four inch drop but he said he took that foreign strap and thought. I'm done like dead. I'm falling into the abyss because it's just you weren't expecting it and it's absolutely terrifying. And just some of the stories from them guys fish hitting him. It's just a weird crazy and we were doing our dive instructor. Had like a pocketful Hotdogs a pocketful of sunshine. Andy pocketful dogs. We go down there and he'd take him out and this was over. We got into a little bit more of a clear area and he'd throw them out in the Bass I mean. Thousands of them really just surround. You just devour these hotdogs. It was one of the coolest things ever ask. You could see an yeah. Yeah the at that area of the Corey. We could see for some reason but the main area we couldn't the craziest one I ever did was I was in Mexico. I was on the Oh the west coast of the Yucatan Peninsula over COMPA- Che and me and Marley my wife and then my sister. Kristen decided we were going to go out and we wanted to go out scuba diving and nobody. None of us had ever scuba dive over there. My Dad and never scuba dived over and that side of the peninsula. We didn't know if there's ending look at of course the east side of the you can peninsulas some of the best diving in the world. That's where all the reefs are cozumel and Cancun there so we decided to go out. We find this little dive shop and we hook it up. We get on the boat with this die. Are you don't really dive in reality if you're unless you're a professional you don't die without a dive master. Kinda guide you especially in an area where you don't know much about it so we go out on this tiny little dinghy boat. I mean nothing little about basically like a Lord a little bigger than a canoe basically no I mean it was A. I don't know it was just wasn't a very big boat fishing boat and we crews out there. The problem was the guy driving. The boat didn't speak any English. Which is fine. I can speak a little bit of Spanish but he didn't. Speaking in English are dive instructor unfortunately was Brazilian so she didn't speak any English at all. She also didn't speak very much Spanish. She spoke Portuguese. That caused a little bit of an issue. So we go out and it's just we get out there and it's windy and the currents are crazy and we're like okay. Well we're going. We're supposed to be looking at the shipwreck so first of all meet all of us four. Get off the boat and immediately we get off the boat and something goes wrong with my sisters tank and it starts blowing fucking air everywhere or okay. She gets back in the boat. We get that fixed. Switch your tank out. Go back in and just as we're in. They're treading water waiting to go down where like drifting away from the boat significantly in these currents like crazy. We're like okay. Well this is. This is on so we start descending and I was holding on the Marlins Marlins hold onto me. Because we're going down in pairs so we go down below the surface and we're just down below not too far and I swear to God. You could not see two inches in front of your face. You couldn't see anything and I'm like well. What is the point of this? Can't see anything so I guess and and usually when you're descending you're there either on a line or you're right all across from each other. Your group is all across from each other. And you're all KINDA descending at the same rate yeah you don't WanNa go to fast. You don't WANNA go to slow. You gotta you gotTa do right well. We couldn't even see anything so we had no reference point. I'm trying to do it off gauges But you know I could see the instructor. Can eventually we kind of get to the bottom and I look over to Marley? I kinda grab get a write up on my face. I'm like we gotta go up. We can't see anything. We have no idea where we are. There's wicked currents. Can you hear each other like did you have any sort of communication trying to yell at her through your mask and done all you gotta do everything with hand signals? You can't even yell at it through mask I mean you got. You got a regulator in your mouth. Yeah Housing Oxygen Talk so anyway we resurface. Which is like not again. It's not a thing it's not like you. Just go down and you come back up but you have to come back in a certain way like you gotta come back up. Certain slowly you got to safety stops but we can do that so we just went up. We kinda went up a little bit slowly. Because you can't just fly up or you're gonNA blow out your eyeballs ray and Yeah so we get up to the top the surface and we pop up. And we're there's nobody nobody around us. Note no people nothing. What and I'm like. Well we are dead like this is insane and like far far away about a mile down. Maybe I see I could see I think it was my somebody turn out with my sister and then eventually we started looking more in the complete opposite direction. Like a mile away is the instructor. We're all like completely because the current is that crazy and eventually the boat comes up in the distance and gives. The instructor comes over to us. And like it's it's so winning and crazy we can't even really get in the boat and we gotta go over and get my sister. Who's like a mile down so the Mexican guy that run on the boat just throws a rope out of the boat and he's just like hold onto this rope and he drug so we're hanging onto this rope and hanging onto the side of the boat as he full hammered down on the throttle on this little fishing boat. And we're just like bashing against the side of the boat bashing against the waves hit our faces and stuff. I'm like what is going on. You're just holding on because you're like I can't go I'M GONNA fly. The PROB is. Yeah we get over there and we picked up my sister. We all get in the boat and the instructors lie and we were down underwater for maybe like five minutes. Not even she's like okay. Well we WANNA do our second night because we bought two dives each like a half an hour dives more like are you fucking crazy. Yeah no thank you. I just deb's dangerous. This isn't even like what are you talking about this? And there's nothing to see even if you wanted to see anything. There was nothing to seat right. You couldn't see an inch in front of your face. What's the point? Yeah so we went back and try to get our money back. They wouldn't give us our money back really but there's nothing to see over there anyway. There's no reef there's no fish there's no nothing there's nothing there it's just like a blank ocean. Oh you know what that was the second time. The first I've we did go down to look at. Yeah okay. That was the second day of the first dive we went down. We did go down but we weren't down very long and that's where we did the shipwreck. Okay that's what it was. The first location was so on quote unquote shipwreck. Okay and we get down to the bottom. Which is just sand and there was like a little piece of iron maybe like six inches long. No Way Are you serious. That's it that's a piece of out for real. They did that to you. Yes it was crazy. It's crazy and I was the second dive and we went down. When we all gots paraded in all that craziness yeah see. That's not worth it to me. That not worth it to me now. Man I've been on some AMAZING DIVES. It's totally worth it. It's one of the best things in the world scuba diving. It's amazing we just did it. In the last time we went to Mexico. We did it and we were. We were swimming around with giant sea turtles. That were one time. I Y dove in Saint. Lucia did a shipwreck and it was legitimately like a real ship wrecked but the whole ship was covered in reef. And you Kinda swim in and out of the ship out through you know through the doors and stuff and Fisher swimming all Jews amazing. Yeah all we dove wants to Costa Rica. We're a down diving. All these amazing fish and the instructors like look up and we kind of roll over near back and look up so it's bright because you know the sun's up there but we're about seventy feet down and there were giant. Manta rays going over us like between us and the surface. I'll never a ways away from us. Obviously but they were huge and casting a big shadow you know as they went across the whole school of it was amazing. So yeah it's totally worth it. That part would be worth it but the one single dive where you can't see anything not for me. Oh No of course that was bullshit. That's not coming. No you just luck of the draw. I guess I mean go to these little shanty places and expect them to give you good quality dives. I mean you went for the cheapest one. Didn't you tell us the truth was the only shop in the entire? It's like it was like a deserted. I mean there's nothing over on the coast. We were just here. That's it wasn't like a tourist area. So they were like a dive shop. They were trying to make it a tourist area or to be a two stereo so this was kind of like. I don't know I mean maybe was just a bad day or something but whatever yeah bad currents yeah so. It's the final of SNARF madness. Chris did you notice. I didn't know that. Yeah SNARF madness. It allie the finale number. Like I said SNARF DOC. Seventy three is the finale of SNARF madness. Twenty twenty So I'm ready. Are you ready I am we didn't have. We did not score any brackets because now we figured you might as well wait till the now is over. Because then we have all the picks and then we can just do a final score and the whole social distancing. I just assume you're diseased. I'm not over there but next week. I'M GOING TO ASSUME YOU'RE NOT DISEASED. And we'll do it. Yeah we're we're going to start like soft. Like what A. What are people calling like where they start reopening stuff? Oh a soft open. Is that what? They're calling in a restaurant and like in restaurants. They do that. They have a song. We're GONNA start reopening if as as society starts re opening. We're going to reopen SNARF our stock studios next week. I think so which I mean we could have been. I think we could have been recording anyways. But whatever were say I mean I you have a medical personnel in your house. I don't WanNa be around you. That's true it's very true and I don't blame you for that. I don't blame anybody for that because you never know you. Know what if she's as symptomatic and doesn't show any sign of it. We did stop by Your House on. We went on a bike ride. That's true you were around our kids already. Our kids were like rolling around with each other. So Yeah we did. The thing that everybody says not to do. Go visit people. Don't I was? Is that right back by the way Yet sucked. Yeah because it's all uphill back home so I made it halfway and then Back to the farm anyway where we stashed caches bike because originally was riding his bike and I have. My bike has like a little tag along bike behind it. The skin right on. It's like a little bike. Hooked to my bike so it's like a three wheel bicycle so anyway it was brutal getting back there and I thought the whole time. I'm like this is ridiculous. I'm this out of shape like it's insane. It's only two miles each probably each way right. Maybe a little maybe two and a half miles each way So I'm like. There's no way I should be. This out of shape. Tanabe all right two miles on a bicycle. It's crazy but you're pulling another child to well. I didn't think that would be that big of a deal because he's got pedals he's handling and it does like propel a little bit And it's only point him on one extra wheel. I mean how big of a difference could not possibly make true. Well then I dropped him off at the farm on his own bike. Got Him off of mine. Yeah go on bike and I'm just like I could have biked hundred miles. It was that much of a difference. It's so much of a difference. I mean at caches. Big Like you say. He's probably like seventy five eighty pounds. I don't know he's all he's not that heavy. Yeah he's easily seventy pounds really. He's tall and he's big. He's a big kid. Yeah he's like he's. He's taller than greedy. I think ingredients a year older than him but I haven't weighed that much more than I think. He's like seventy pounds or so but anyway. Yeah it makes a huge difference huge difference. Wow I wouldn't think so because you are like. He is propelling himself a little bit. Because it's chained and geared to the wheel doesn't help at all it does not. I mean you can pay like if you're going like like just you get up some speed and yours coasting and he's still peddling like you can feel it just barely like push you like pack. Pray at you but it's not like it's nothing. Yeah so anyways you did. You did basically completely ignore all rules and regulations of local government and came over to our house when we were all outside. Yeah we were. We were all six feet apart. Kids weren't really actually. They weren't really by each other now. They're all stink pretty far apart and we were outside in the wind. It's like all you gotta worry about people spitting on you the worst. That's worse though. They don't want people riding bikes or running outside because If like the winds come in if someone's down wind of you carries the virus while that's true. I could see that. I don't have the virus though I test myself yesterday. You did yeah. I've got a four hour test here and machine one of those machines. Your gold founded on Amazon told me I was negative so I'm not worried when this all started. I thought for a little bit. I'm like I'm going to go on Ebay and just buy a ventilator just so like I have my own ventilator just like if I do get sick I'll just bring my own medicine. I'm like how much can there's nothing to them right. They're not like super sophisticated now. They are very sufficient for like twenty thousand dollars. Yeah they're expensive. That's like wait a minute. Which is the reason why most governments are having an issue buying all of them but there's no reason they should cost that much. There's nothing to really on all according to trump. They're very intricate and like sophisticated. Yeah that's what he says every single time. Well I don't know I guess he me either as he probably probably a little more speed on it than I am I'm glad you didn't buy your own ventilator because you're just gonNa have that sitting around for a long time turns out. We don't really need them right now. No okay last. Round of final round of SNARF madness I have Batman versus swamp thing in the final round and I have spiderman vs Batman who who goes first here because I I literally have. I don't know I don't know what I'm going to pick yet. It's on the fly completely so I I've been staring at my bracket For over an hour and I've been thinking about it for the last week. No joke all the time because I really do have a hard time. Picking this. I mean Batman was. That's just silly. I don't believe for a second. I don't think it is Batmans. Always been my my Go-to my number one but swamping has come up so strong in the last ten years or maybe even. I'd say like thirteen years because I I watched swamp thing as a kid all the time too I used to. I had on VHS the original swamp thing TV show that they had out when facebook was first created. And we all. I joined facebook like in two thousand five or whenever it was five or six. I my my description of myself was the monologue like the opening monologue of the swamp thing. Tv show. And it's like I am the swamp it's like this big monologue and I typed it all out as the description for me. And that's what I put and I think back of all these things and I've always had swamp thing in my life just as much as I have Batman and then I started looking up articles between Batman and swamp thing because I couldn't necessarily decide who wins this even though I am again such a Batman Fan And there was. I mean everything comes up with like who's more powerful than the next and that's not what I was looking for. But almost everything puts and swamp thing is one of the most powerful like superheroes in the DC universe anyways so it wasn't really quite a match up but I don't know at the end of the day between swamp thing and Batman. I mean I I think I have to go with the predictable pick. Even though I honestly don't want to I want to be. I WanNa put swamp thing in as champion. I I do but I feel like there'd be so much backlash because I would be doing something that is you know out of the norm or out of my norm. I guess so. I don't know why you're even considering that. So I am your bracket I know. It's my bracket I just Yeah it has to go to Batman it does it has to go to Batman. I think it's if I could tie if I could make a tie I would but there's no ties it's a clear winner. It has to be Batman swamp. Things number two Maybe NEXT YEAR. That will change. I don't know but it just. It has to go to Batman. There's so many there's so many other ties that I have the Batman throughout my entire. I mean everything. In comic books has surrounded in. My life has surrounded. Batman everything about comics revolves around that character and But I mean I base stories off of Batman you know like I always say when I say like like daredevil so much and I like midnight so much I always say oh. It's like a Batman type character. Not say it's like a swamp thing type character because it's not. It's like a Batman type character because they're going for that like dark broody and rich person that's fighting crime like there's so many stories that are based off of this and everything that I love and comex stems from Batman so It has it has to it. Has To go to Bruce Wayne. Yeah I mean as much as I love Swamp thing as well myself. I mean the story department. I don't really know that it even matches up. I mean the saga of swamp thing is amazing. And there's some other really really amazing. Something things the volume of Batman material. That's awesome beyond compare is is significant so I mean out of those two. I think he made the right decision. Well I wasn't looking for your input it all on my picks but thanks. That's true so Batman for you it is Batman is number one out of all of those characters and I guess we won't recount too much more on you know we talked about last week. We kind of went over with all these characters of like. What our favorite rations and what things you can check out. I think we'll just we can quickly say again for swamp thing the main thing probably just start with would be the saga of swamp thing Alan Moore. It's collected now or you can buy individual trade paperbacks for Batman There's a plethora that we've mentioned but I know last week. We said some of the main wants to get would be the new fifty two Scott. Snyder Ron Frank Miller's Year one Batman you're one Those are good in the long Halloween. Yeah Long Waiting Josh. Any of those. Hush Colleen are both by Jeff Lobe. The Dark Knight is great with Frank Miller. But I don't know there's a great starting point for Batman just because it's like such a different story and also like and of his career you know you can say like the killing joke by Alan Moore. But that's more of a joker story so You know I would. I would definitely go with. I'd probably go with long Halloween or Scott Snyder. And if you're a video game person you need to get. All of the ARKHAM Games Arkham gale. A great place to those are incredible Batman Stories. I thank you for sure. So that's something and then I just recently watched a well. I mean I guess I could put it in what we're watching but I'll just talk about an hour as the Justice League Dark. I did and boy. It's so good like everything about it was so good. I really liked the parts with a swamp thing when swamp thing shows up and how they use them in that in that movie then. Constantine's in there and everything about it is just very good and I love how like Batmans like the Sh- the gotTa shitty attitude all the time. I think it's hilarious. 'cause he shows up to meetings and then he just leaves. I'm like well that's Batman Girls. Which is all like an all around very good movie and DC. Just does such a good job at their animated movies. And I don't know why they can't translate to like live action film when I don't know why what are they doing. You know you can draw all of that stuff and create the story for somebody wrote it obviously like you get the same freaking riders that do your animated stuff and make people act the at like the shit out of that you know. Brinkley. I'm happy to see in the animated versions. I don't really I love. Yeah I love the animated versions to. It's just that I mean I I'm just talked about the all of the Shit live action stuff that they've been putting out. It doesn't make any sense. You know right well. My championship comes down to the big marvel versus the big DC. This huge vs Batman. So real quick I super i. I honestly don't know if I know what you're going to pick I. I think I do think I'm I'm pretty sure you're while you're going to pick but this is kind of up in the Air Really. I. I've been struggling with this pick for the whole week. You know I've been thinking about it back and forth. I've been weighing options. So I've definitely put the effort in to considering this and I I still don't necessarily have it all nailed out so we're gonNA work through it right here. A little bit comes down to picking my pick and this pick you gotta go. You GotTa get away all the evidence right. Sure go with comics. Right spider man's been around for a long time not quite as long Batman but Just about Batmans been around for a long time if you go by comics purely by the story aspect of it They're just completely different now. There's been everything under the sun done with Batman there's been everything under the Sun Spiderman yes but There's been amazing stories written about Spiderman. There's been amazing stories run by Batman the more There's been more amazing stories written on Batman definitely. I think there's also been dealt more better art for Spiderman Because it's it lends itself to art a little bit better but you know there's also been depends on the art you want though they're just completely different too. I mean it's very of a fun. Light Superhero. Not Always. I mean it's not always fun and light but for the most part it's more superhero one's a little more dark and gritty so there are different so you know. If you're going my comics he probably got to give the edge to Batman. But it's pretty close if you're GONNA buy movies because there's just about as many spiderman movies as there has been Batman movies and there's been a lot of bad batman movies there's been a couple of good ones yes. There's been a lot of really good spiderman movies and a couple of bad once But you know ultimately probably the best of all of those is probably the dark night so maybe the best yes ask movie Would be that movie but as a whole it's hard to argue the spiderman movies have amazing special effects all the way through incredible story They're different tone. They're fun and then when you throw in the whole spider verse movie. Which was incredible. I think I gotta give the edge to the movie universe Spiderman. Frankly I off by preference I honestly I would agree with you completely on that because the only thing I mean. I love the original Batman like Batman Eighty nine. I like that movie a lot. I like Batman returns. I like that movie a lot too. Even though they're cheesy and Corny and whatnot Batman begins is a good starting point for Batman. I think but it wasn't the greatest film. Dark is one of the best films created. I think and I mean a lot of people agree with that. There's IMDB and Rotten tomatoes have that movie scored as one of the best movies of all time. And it clearly is if you watch it the way it's structured the way put together like all of the story is so good then the third Batman movie just doesn't you know dark knight rises. It doesn't hold much weight there. It's it's good I I enjoy it thoroughly. But that's really all you have to work off of. All of the movies in the nineties for Batman are very corny. And I don't even I mean I don't consider them like serious films to be honest like even though and then you get a although the superman or spiderman movies that came out They get dogged on a lot like all the same remy ones but I enjoy those movies along. I mean Spiderman One and two. Don't get done. Three Spiderman. Twos widely considered one of the best comic book movies of all time and it is and then obviously homecoming and far from home are incredible movies. Believable spider versus an aggressive move. That's what I was. GonNa say once you throw into the spider verse in there. I mean the quality of all of those movies. You know homecoming far from home into the spider verse alone. Just trump basically everything batmans done except for Dark Knight. What I mean by far I would say spiderman movies or just above. Yeah and and it's a different again. You can just do so much more in a spider movie there's Special Effects Wise. You know just the more interesting thing. If you're going for animation Again it's it's probably fifty fifty. I mean I know you got the main. The main ones for Batman would be the animated series which was great. And then you have all it's not just create. It is the greatest it's great. It's a great series and then you have a great kid series It's an adult. You Watch that you're GONNA watch that all back now because I don't I have Batman. The animated series. Yeah absolutely. It's a good. It's a good series for sure. I mean it's it's Great. But you got that you got the. Obviously the DC animated movies of Batman. Have there's been a lot of really good ones? There's been a lot of really shitty. Wants to have a lot of really really really good ones. So that's been good but but spider also had a really good animated. I mean there's been a lot of really good. Spider-man shows whether it be the nineties show whether it be ultimate spider man which ran for a long time There's been like four other animated Spiderman integrations. They're all good the new one. That's running now. is really really good That's still on currently those for like kids animation. Those are really good So I mean on the. I'd probably honestly for me. I would probably give the edge to animation to Spiderman. Just because you know I spent a lot of it. I don't own a lot of different shows. They're all very good. You know there's all Batman the brave and the bold was a really good show. There's a good Batman movies to Obama beyond was a good show mascot it's awesome. Yeah I mean I consider that the animated series basically well. It's a movie. Yeah but it's part of the people in the same university. Yeah so I mean I. I'd say they're neck and neck. I guess maybe I mean for me I would say for me. I'd probably the edge. The Spiderman Animation. More aimed at children. The Batman Animation has done a lot more aimed at adults. Especially when you get into the killing joke and the Dark Knight. Yes right one too so I guess I'd probably give the edge to Batman in that respect for that you know so at the end of the day at the end of the day you gotta throw in the whole aspect of personal preference to so at the end of the day. I think If I weigh everything I have to go with Spiderman go spiderman see. That's I didn't think you were. I thought you were going to go with Batman. I really did think you were going to choose Batman as a champion for you but honestly I didn't know and I knew you love Spiderman so much I gotta go spend because of all of those things I just said. I think a lot of those things in the movies the animation I I give the probably the spiderman the comics. I'd give the edge to Batman just a little bit though I mean I like reading Spiderman and the Comics. I'd I'd like that style and the visuals and everything about it but I love breeding Batman to At the end of the day it Kinda comes down to. Who Do I enjoy more as comic book character a Superhero and there is a lot of joy when Spiderman? There there is. It's a story. Yes it's a story about a a kid or a young adult or a teenager. There's a lot of different iterations. Somebody that's unsure of themselves and has a lot of self esteem issues and a lot of internal issues to walk around but the end of the day. There's also a lot of joy there's also a lot of A person that is just amazed to have these powers. And it's fun and having fun with them and is even having fun as he's fighting crime and he actually has real superpowers that make him you know and not just little superpowers like massive superpowers. You know yeah that. And the way they kind of morph that whole world into its own universe and expand you know into the totality of the spider verse and multiple dimensions and all different things. And there's different iterations of Spiderman. There's iron spider there's all the different Spiderman iterations and It's just to me. I feel like it's funner. More interesting universe and a foreigner and more interesting more fun. I should say an interesting character. Ultimately Batman who Batman has had some great stories about him. He's a great character but at the end of the day it's kind of. It's more a little more one note. Maybe it's kind of a little bit I can see that. Yeah it's it's a one track thing and the track is a track that I really love. But you know in you know. And that's the way I feel about. Batman is a it is a one track one note type story but Gosh I don't want it any different you know. That's what I want from Batman. That's all I ever expect and if I get something different I feel like it's wrong. Which would you just my close mind like opinion of Batman but I feel like this is right. I think this is. This is absolutely right of our comic book worlds like I completely see you having Spiderman as the champion and obviously I me having Batman it just this feels right as the champions Tummy. It really does. Yeah I mean it does I. I've always been cavill marvel guy he was kind of a DC. Go absolutely Kinda of like the light and fun. You kinda like the dark broody. I mean it's just the way it is. Yeah so there you go. Snarf SNARF matinees. Twenty twenty is complete. We have two champions Batman and spider man so we will get all of the scores done and out on the next episode where Chris Sorta will announce a WHO won and what they're going to win and all that fun stuff. Yeah absolutely and we'll have all of that totaled out to you will put it out on her social media to After we record the episode So that's it and this is a little bit different SNARF madness than last year Yeah for sure I I. I'm excited like I. I can't wait to do it again next year. And figure out what we're GONNA do. Yeah we're not going to do the same thing again. I if you guys are just swallow. You didn't follow along last year. We did some. I mean we did a top ten and top fantasy right. Fantasy SCI FI fantasy sci fi fantasy comic book genre type movies of the last decade And this year we did top comic book characters and then next year. We'll do something completely different so it's not the same thing over and over again right. Yeah it was really fun. This year I liked to a lot of people were Have been texting me and asking me about about scores. They WanNa know like where they're out but I think they know. After listening to the episodes they can follow along on their own bracket and see where they're at but like. I said we'll give you the scores next week. We're getting people's comments on you being pissed off at us for this or that you know. Alex was talking about Certain pixie disagreed with and Nolan. Who's been T- Messaging I don't know if you patriot. He's a messaging us on How his bracket screwed up. I think he had swamping out in the first round ghostbusters. Run kind of screwed a lot of people it did. It screwed me up thinking about your bracket if I if I had to score bracket I would've never put that out there. I wouldn't have put Harry Potter in front of a couple of them either but you know I think if we do next year maybe we could do like we cool to do like movie characters not necessarily comic book characters although he could throw them in because it'd be fun to put in some like star wars characters and like John owns and like things like that. That would be really good. That would really get and that's hard to pick. I mean that's hard too because we don't talk about those as much about what we love because we're so based in comic books like we talk a lot about movies but to try to rank that stuff and put it in a bracket form that's hard pick. Yeah that would be hard so So we do like Not Not nerd movies but like on genre movies but not including Comic Book. Movies like Are we could either do movies or character? I don't know if you guys got some suggestions. Let us know of what we should do next year. I know longtime before that comes about. We got a year's zooming we all survive the impending covert apocalypse. Well that's awfully negative of you so I wanNA talk about so. When we went to see to two. We met a lot of people from the podcast for old because we went to a podcast. Meet up And there is one guy that I had talked to endure therefore it and he has a podcast that I have started listening to frequently and they. He's Open York. Ville relatively close to us right up the road and he has a podcast called. Mr wiggly's moist unhappy Friendship Garden okay. That's a mouthful but it's a sketch comedy show so in the episodes they're anywhere from thirty to thirty minutes to an hour long and most of them don't ever go up to an hour but it's multiple little sketches and they're all pretty funny so I started listening to it and you know I was pretty neutral on the show at. I just wanted to see what it was about and I gotTa tell you. I'm listening to it on the way to work and on the way home and most of the sketches that they're doing are making me laugh out loud in in the vehicle and I was pleasantly surprised. At how funny. A lot of them war. And it's stuff that I've always wanted to do so I had. I've talked to him and he invited both of us up there to to do whatever we can record episodes with them because they're always looking for people to record and they're always looking for people to write sketches. So I want to get involved with this so bad because it's a really good show. I think it's really funny. Every episodes obviously different with different sketches. And they have specials that come out since this whole. Kovic thing he's head. Some special episodes come out that had never been released before and decided to release them. And it's really fun and I want to get involved with us. What are your feelings? Because he's email list a couple times in your email and back not the same gay people. Now I got I got a email the other guy back. That's the guy that does the the online web comics. This know that guy. What's WHO's the Guy. That has the podcast. What's his name? Which which one. We talked to multiple people so this guy has a podcast and he has not emailed us. I facebook Messenger and talk to him there and he's going to get back. He said he was going to get back to me. The other guy is with the web comics. So you did that three minute. I know that guy the other Guy Eric. Something had emailed us. We'll never mind. Yeah he works with the guy that did the sketch. The three Matt Sketch Okay. So they're the same like they worked for the same people. That's the guy we need to get with too. Because he wants to or we could have him as a guest which will hopefully happen in the future but this sketch comedy show. Sounds very intriguing to me and I would like to be a part of it. So if you guys are looking for a new podcast. Listen to checkout. Mr wiggly's was A. It's a long when I gotta look at it every single time because I can't remember all of it it's Mr Wiggly's moist unhappy Friendship Garden. Yes okay we're going to check that out. That sounds awesome. Yeah I would totally be down to do something like that. So they're closed down right now. They're not recording while this is going on well. He keeps putting out episode. So okay I thought you said they were banked episodes or something he was putting out extras okay because everybody stuck at home. So he's putting out extra content for people to listen to because everybody's stuck doing nothing so in saying that if you are stuck doing nothing listen to snarf talk. Yeah we've got seventy three episodes if you're behind check them out because we've got some good content to yeah for sure all right. What are we going onto? You got some news. We gotta do what we're watching or where do you want to go from here? Yeah so we got some what you're watching but I also read an article so when I was researching all the stuff about Batman and swamp thing I stumbled upon an article that it they just had a a versus article and it was up on Reddit and another website but it was a bunch of people commented and it was a verses between Batman and swamp thing versus groot an Ironman and it intrigued me so I clicked on it and I start reading some of the comments and I started thinking about it. I'm like this really isn't this really isn't a match up and I know you remarkable guy but when you think about it. Groot is plant matter swamp thing controls all plant manner so groups basically out of the question here like. I don't know I don't know that much about groot. Really honestly like what his power set is. So I'm not really clear on after reading all of the like I Iran man and man thing versus swamp thing and I think I think that would be a better Yeah on a similar characters. Right one of them's got to be a rip off of the other. Yes but GRUTAS not and to be I would I would take ironman. Grew all day oversaw? Batman? No way there's no possible way. There's literally no possible way that I think swamping alone could beat both of those people easily. Yeah I don't know maybe Batman is beaten Swamping so he had and that's the thing is like anything group can really throw it Batman he's basically handled with Poison Ivy. Yeah that's true because poison. Ivy's thrown everything you could think of about plant material towards him And he's handled that stuff but again swamp thing can control everything that involves plant matter or growing and he can also he can also be up to in in the comics. He's been up to like fifty different beings at one time because he doesn't have to be the same person yeah he can also like I don't know he can do a bunch of stuff like he can like be and other planets and stuff too right or even know how that works. I literally like a deity almost. Yeah Omnipotent. Yeah he's he is like everything so it's not really that big of a challenge but it was a huge discussion about this. If you ever look it up there reading through the comments there are definitely heard iron man vs Batman arguments. And you know we've heard that go back and forth I. I don't know I honestly and I was just joking earlier. I mean obviously ironman is much more powerful than Bam Bam but like. There's so many vulnerabilities in iron man. And that's like Batman Ammo is like finding vulnerabilities and being able to take advantage of those and if he can find ways to take down the entire Justice League pretty sure you can find a way to take down iron man just by like even like a software glitch or like a computer so like that. That was some of the arguments that they were saying that they're not. This doesn't give enough time for Batman to figure out how to beat these people so they said like originally. If you think of the the verses and who's like matched up against who you would immediately think like Batman and Ironman are GonNa fight and then and then swamp thing in group but in reality one guy put in there he said. Ironman is going to choose to fight swamp thing right off the bat because he's the bigger batter person and he needs to take him down. I you know rather than A man in a bad suit hiding in the dark. Like he's GonNa go right after swamp thing right off the Bat Batmans GonNa go after the root and he's going to handle grew however he handled like I said Poison Ivy. And if he can hold off him for a long long enough time you know. Ironman can do whatever he wants again swamp thing he can basically blow him up he can blow up swamp thing right off the bat and he's GonNa come back as you know three different people if he wants to or he could be an aversion of groot. But it's still swamp thing and I mean I it depends on like the iteration of swamp thing I mean there's been comics the run where he's handled easily like by a group of guys he's like frozen right. Yeah because that's the first creation of him like he's just learning as power. So Yeah Yeah it could be that way before he ever really taps into all of it. I just thought it was a cool article. The read a different type of versus thing. But again I have to go with the DC side. They're going to go with the marvel son. Of course you would I also recently got the they just released volume three of daredevil. So of the chips at our ski run. He's been cranking out different or issue after issue of daredevil and they finally put out volume three and. I just got that so. That's something I'm going to read here pretty quick I haven't got to it yet but I preordered it along time ago and it just came out. So that's something. I'm going to read here real soon. 'cause I got plenty of time on my hands. You got any news. I don't have any news no I got somewhat what I've been watching but yes getting more news okay. No that's all. I wanted to talk about really all right I just got a couple of things. I've been watching nothing too serious here I did. I'm caught up like I've been continuing to watch Dave. There is a new episode out. Like didn't I haven't watched it okay. I won't talk about. It's really really good. I thought it was really really really good. Is it the one after we disagreed on? Yeah okay. I haven't watched that so I really again i. It's just one of my favorite shows. That's on right now. So that's a fun. I've been watching I've kind of been like in that mode where I haven't really started any shows and I don't WanNa get sucked in anything right away because it's a busy season for me But I did so. I'm just looking for like dumb things to watch chur so I've been watching Disney Plaza life below zero which is like a reality show about like people that live way up north in Alaska. Oh yeah that's a guy. One of those guys was on the Joe. Rogan yeah so the show like flips between like four or five different people in different areas. And that's on Disney plus. Yeah the whole it's first of all I started watching it because I'm like okay. I thought there was like for some reason. I thought there was like three seasons and there were like ten episodes of season. Now there's like fourteen seasons so she's and it is not good not good. Okay I get show I mean there's certainly some things that are totally very interesting and like there is a lot of interesting things going on but it is like a classic reality show where like you know they keep repeating themselves over and over and over again right like every time they come back from a commercial and there's no commercials on Disney plus but they they still have the commercial breaks in there because it was a television show you know they like repeat the last thirty seconds from before the commercial again. But when you don't have the commercial that really makes it really infuriating yeah So there's a lot of that type of stuff in just a lot of like repetitiveness and maybe it's because I'm only on like the second season but it is interesting like definitely. Some of the people are that are on. There are very interesting and like I always think it's fun to watch people use ingenuity in situations where they don't have all the resources that we have available to us and so I think that's pretty cool. That Guy Just he was just. He wasn't in the first season he started. Being in the second season I think later on the show becomes like a little more about him But there are some other interesting characters on there too. But he's pretty interesting I don't know he just Kinda goes up there and just lives in a hut and just walks around and aunts and it doesn't really like I don't really know why why he's doing this but apparently that's what he wants to do. Yeah he gave the explanation on the Joe Rogan. Podcast on why he wanted to do it. He's it was something he's always wanted to do. Like remove himself from like today's Day and age and just live off the grid and he does it. It's just weird because he's got like a family he's got a wife and kids and they live in fairbanks and like during the summer he leaves. Knee goes back because he can't survive in the summer because he's got no way to preserve food. You know if you should meet at rots. He doesn't have refrigerator. So dig you. He thought he'd dug down into the ground to keep like a refrigerator. Almost cold underground up there and he has like a sod room. He calls it which is like A. It's like a cave type thing that's covered in sod. Yeah that he keeps stuff in but I think anything in the summer is GONNA get flies. Larva are bugs in it so he leaves in the summer in new walks. Back is sixty miles from the highway from the row from a road so he walks out. That sixty miles takes them like four days. And it's just crazy because this whole episode is him walking back and he walks back and he didn't really bring food with him it a little bit of food but what always strikes me whenever he's on there is. He is always covered in mosquitoes. When I stay covered I mean thousands of mosquitoes really at all times swarming him biting him landing on him and he just is ignoring. It's crazy. How many mosquitoes. This guy has on that immediately like it immediately makes me itch. I could not. I could not stand. That wouldn't matter one. We'll do that. The one guy like is like this guy and his wife they live. It's live that far from town but there's no roads that access them. I don't know if they're on island or something so they have to like boat everything in but he's got like a little bulldozer and he's got like a little he's got some machines out there and they have like a house and they have like a farm and in the winter. They do everything with dog sleds. But in the summer they get boat everything so like. He's trying to build a new house and he's got like a spot over on the other side where it's fourteen miles up river any lands there and he's got like a lot that must be like have access to town you know and he's got like a L. A. Handler. That stays there. So we'll take his boats. He's got like two little old army barges but like little ones and he'll hook them up in front of his like little fishing boat. Push him over there. He liked ties them together with beams and he loaded up like he needs. Gravel could put to build a foundation so he liked loads up at this tele handler. Like I don't know ten tons of gravel on these boats and then this like pushes them down the river on these little bar boats and gets to the other end and he's got this little tiny old as bullets. GotTa be from the Nineteen Forties or fifties this bulldozer. Any like builds. This like Jig like crane rig off the back of it with a winch. Any hooks them up to the bags of gravel and like winches them up and then drives the bulldozer just crazy and then like the first one he was doing. He hooked his two boats together with beams because he went and he bought a sawmill. A big sawmill. Okay on you know on tires. Yeah and it's a big big sawmill. And he loads it up on these. Two boats like perched on these beams as crazy. Isn't that is weird. How like why people would want to live this way. Like why like you could. Just you know that lot where you got the Tele Handler. Just build your house. They're exactly just do it there instead of having to go across the river on boats and rafts and Barges. Understand it really. I don't understand it. And then there's this lady that's really annoying. But she's like way far up like as far north in Alaska. These other people are like mid Alaska like Glenn Guy and this Little Guy This chick has a camp. That's like on the North North North. Part of Alaska and she like evidently worked there for like one year and then bought the campus really has no idea what she's doing for the most part seems like and basically. It's just a bunch of trailers like containers that are like converted into trailers. Yeah that are just out in the middle of nowhere and there's a runway and it's basically like a refueling station and she just lives there yes. She just lives in her all the winter. All the time lanes will land in. Yeah pretty much. I think and like planes land and refuel there. And that's about it and some you know in a plane lands fuels. They're the person that's flying. That plane might need to like stay there for like a couple of days to grow for weather. Whatever reason okay. Or they'll be like Scientific expeditions that come up to do stuff that will just stand there. It's the weird weird. Sounds like a weird show. So I've been watching that a little bit and I think I'm done watching that now I started watching The leftovers on. Hbo Never Watch out. I think it's like who did that. I think it's Damon Lindelof. Did that show the guy? That did watchmen. Yeah Yeah that's the same guy leftovers. I only watch the first couple of episodes. It was interesting. It's like two percent of the world's population just like disappears overnight like immediately kinda like the rapture doesn't have not a religious thing. I don't like indiscriminantly. Two percent like old people babies prisoner. Anybody I mean two percent doesn't feel that much it isn't and that's what like a Lotta the shows about. It's like it's not enough. People that like significantly affects the daily lives but it does affect the whole world like happen all over the world and like things are just talked up because of it. So I've been watching that it's kind of interesting. I don't know The main one that I've been watching catching up on which I just kind of forgot about crazy enough and so I was a bunch of episodes behind is The clone war the new season clone words. It's awesome is it is awesome. It is awesome is awesome. I absolutely love it The beginning of the part of the season was like pretty good so like the first several episodes. I I've kind of talked about those were more about like The clones and they were fine and I was like okay. This is fine. Whatever so then it's from the La- the last four or five episodes like the middle to the end of the season is all about so catano. Basically are precise after she left the Jedi Order. Like what she's doing now and she's freaking awesome and certainly watch and just in the last episode. I'M GONNA last couple here and I don't know how many are left this season. But she just got hooked up with Mandal Orients Oh. Yeah they're going to basically transition the show right into right into Revenge of the seth sure and into the whole man delorean war thing that takes basically the beginning like they're gonNA do the Mandolin War. That happens in the history of the show the Mandolin. So they're tying right into mandal orient so that they can they're gonNA since they're bringing her in a season two. They're gonNA make that tie into that right. Yeah and they make a so a frigging. That's I need to watch it. I even watch any of that so I need to. Yeah it's fun. Definitely check it out in their short. I mean they're twenty thirty minute episode. I didn't think there thirty minutes really. Yeah because I think there were made for. I don't know if they're using the scripts from when I was a TV show right but it seems like they're half an hour with commercial breaks taken out nice so that'd be what twenty twenty two minutes. Something like that. Yeah pretty much Zeljka that's all. I've been watching you. I honestly haven't been watching anything of note like I. I don't know if I've really watched anything this last week. Nothing comes to mind. I haven't watched anything new. I did finish those two movies. I was talking about the sisters brothers and Molly's game and I liked him. They were good movies if you were looking for a movie to watch. I think those are good to watch the Western one of the sisters brothers. It's good I thought it was going to be a lot better than what it was. Just very one note And just starts off on a path and continues until it ends and good John. C Reilly is an incredible actor. I think he completely out. Axe Joaquin Phoenix fucking phoenixes. The other main character I I just think it was the characters in general but I there was just more to the character of Johnny. Riley's like he was really Like battling on why they were. These bounty hunter type people like they just hired to kill. People is basically what they did and he was. He wanted to like have a family and he wanted to settle down and like actually have a life instead of just wandering around in getting like He. Kinda got gypped out of money from his brother on a lot of these things and he was just sick of it. So it's it's him like wanting to get into a normal life and stop doing what they're doing in his his character was just so much better and his acting as out of this world like you think of John C Reilly as this goofy guy that you know in step brothers and Talladega nights and All these other movies Dewey Cox What's that what's that movie called? Dewey Cox Walk hard walk hard. Which is a great movie. But I just saw him in something with Wilford all the Sherlock Holmes. I've heard that's like one of the worst movies ever. It's not that bad. It's pretty funny really funny. I thought it was funny. I'll have to see it then because I've heard I mean I whatever I mean. It's will ferrell and John Riley. I mean they're funny. No matter all right I I agree. That's what I originally that expecting it to be here. Yeah so those. Two things were good Other than that. I really haven't watched much what I been getting into a lot in. It's kind of funny. It's really dumb on why. Enjoy the game so much but it's literally just farming simulator. Oh no I play it all the time and I love Gate Damage Jerry. Such a time waster. It's ridiculous as to. Why would like this? It's so dumb when you like if I saw somebody sitting there playing this I'd be like that's really dumb. That's me I do is stop it. Stop this why it's so fun that's what I want to do after we're done recording is play that game really. What are you playing on? Xbox see I I know some other people that are like really really into it really Yeah for sure. Definitely one of the guys that worked for me. He's like obsessed with it. It's so you can like and I don't play. I don't play it realistically at all. I just want to have big equipment and just farm all over. And that's what I do and it's it is a complete time-waster like four hours will just fly by playing that game and I've completed nothing and it's just so I don't get it. You just run a farm. You ever done that before. Yeah Man I don't need to do any more than that but you could do it as unrealistic as you want or you can do all cattle or you can do forestry or you could do anything fun no interest whatsoever why get farming simulator. Nineteen the other day because I was playing farming simulator. Seventeen but the newest one is nineteen. Seventeen year old school and But I got nineteen recently. Some is a new learning curve. Their new man never stops raining and it didn't hasn't rained yet. Actually but that would be a nightmare. I would probably turn off rain if if I was going to happen. I mean I used to play Sim farm lot farm. Yeah absolutely loved that it was original. That wasn't my favorite Sim game. Though my favorite same game was Sim aunt. I didn't ever play the game rocked. You were an answer. And you had like an ant colony built a colony and you had to get across the yard so you built your county underground but then you'd pop up and you go around the and then you could get call your hands together to like attack. Will you'd have to find food to bring it down to the Queen and your county but you could attack like a caterpillar and then like eat have guys come like eat the caterpillar or you could get like totally huge battle of the spider and they just kick the shit out of you. If you have like a huge colony you could take down the spider and then like you'd have to watch out like on the bigger map because the guys moaning yards. You gotTa make sure like all that you don't get mass mess stuff up. I used to play that game all the time. I love that game but I loved some farm to and I love Sim city. I loved all those SIM Games. I mean I love Sim city. That was one of my favorite games. Do well this is basically the exact same thing only better. Because it's newer and up-to-date. Yeah I could see that. Yeah I just. I don't think I'd be into those kind of SIM Games anymore. Now you've grown stuff. They take like so much time and energy that I would prefer to play. If I'm going to play a game like I want a story like I don't even know that. Some of my favorite most favorite games in the world where like civilization and age of empires was a huge one Warcraft those types of games those. I don't know what what do you call those types of games but Anyway those were like always some of my favorite games. I still have to play him not that long ago. Not that many years ago I used to play online at age of Empires. Too with some other People from the area and I just I would love to go back and play those games. But they are a huge amount of time. They take a huge time suck. But if I'm GONNA play take that much time I'd rather go play like Red Dead Redemption. Let's see I feel. I feel completely upset about that. I feel like red dead. Redemption or any story based game is so much more of a time suck than what farming simulator is. I mean I don't have to complete anything in this. It's like I can pace the game as quick or as slow as I want it to be. And they're putting a ton of ours and like you could put a ton of hours into something you know. Yeah the story lines still accomplishing things on farming simulator. It's just what you want to accomplish rather than having a story. It's fake things you know like. This is real life Chris. It's like you're basically what you're doing is like the cheap version of going to casino. No you're just pumping money into a slot machine man. That cost me no money. That's what I'm saying. It's the free version or cheap version of just going staring at a slot machine pumping money and pulling a lever to which is mindless mindless Mind Opium Yeah it is one hundred percent it is. It's just like watching a mindless show. Like a reality show or something you know what? It is zero your life below zero or any of the reality cooking shows. I watch It's it's kind of the same thing and I haven't finished sorry. Go ahead. I I remember. I finished Lego masters that shows amazing. I love it absolutely love really. It didn't suck me in as much as it did you. I love that show man. It's so fun. It was so fun to watch cash in the kids. They loved it really anyway. Sorry I all I was GONNA say. Is that it like I had been. I had gotten into farming simulator years ago and then just kind of quit playing it because it was such a time waste and then recently since we have so much time here at home and amy's been doing a lot of homework because she's in a masters program. I was like well. The boys like to play it to or like to watch and I was like well. Maybe I'll just try this. Oh and I started playing it again and then I realized that I realized that that was a mistake because now I'm obsessed with it again and that's all I really WanNa do and gets me nothing. Here's the deal. I believe in the plight of the small farmer the small farmer with a small equipment. Beat up junk the Jalopy like me. It goes out there tries to make it work. I don't like these big operations coming in with their forty eight. Row Planters Man. That's what I come in. I buy all the land I find. I find that cheats to where you can get more money and I do that and I buy all the land by all the big equipment and I go through and I'm just like basically factory farm all this shit out as many as I can. I love it. I'm doing taken down the dumb taken down the little guy all the time. It's happening all around us every day. I don't need to see more of it on a computer screen. But you could be that guy on the computer. Don't WanNa be like a triumph. You could be like yeah. Don't something I don't want to bring down the agricultural industry. You're not you're building creating an empire. No I don't think so. I like anything about it. Well that's basically all I've done I don't know there's another simulator that's really popular goat simulator. Here play that one. Nope people love this one. It's called goat simulator. Are you being serious? I swear to God it's called Goat Simulator. Never I have no idea what you do. I'M GONNA look it up. I've never even heard of this greatest of all time or like an actual animal. You're a goat. It's a really popular video game but it is. I believe you just go around as a goat. Do stuff as a goad people love it? Simulator is the latest and goats simulation technology. Bring next Gen goat simulation. To you. No longer have to fantasize about being your dreams come through Gameplay wise goat simulator is all about causing as much destruction as you possibly can as a goat has been compared to old school gaining game except instead of being a skater your goat. Instead of doing tricks you wreck stuff. Destroy Things with style such as doing a backflip. While high butting a bucket through a window and you earn even more points or you could just give steam workshop a span and create your own goats levels emissions and more when it comes to goats. Not even the sky's the limit as you can probably just bug through it and crashed the game. Disclaimer goat. Simulator is a completely stupid game and to be honest. You should probably spend your money on something else such as a hula-hoop or a pile of bricks or maybe pull your money together with their friends and I are real goat. He shares one. You can be a goat to get points for wrecking stuff brag to your friends that you are the Alpha goat three millions of anyway. Yeah it's it's a popular game goat simulator. People love it. I hadn't even heard of it but it sounds like riveting it does when you look at it. It looks like Like Tony Hawk. Skating game type thing. What what was that game Reacts Up Your Goat Right I understand this it just there. I used to play like skating games. I played I played Tony Hawk. Pro Skater all the time. Skating Game Snowboarding Games. Bmx aims be beumer. Bmx triple X. Yes played it. And then what was the Snowden game so bad when I was younger because I thought it was going to have like pornographic elements to it right because of the triple not. No not at all but as a supervisor played Tony Hawk all the time and then there was a what was that snowboarding game casino laid cool boarders cool border cool boarders I think it was cool. Boarders sure that awesome game. I three was a good one. I think that was the one on playstation cool three and like they have the avalanche level. Yes Yep that's the one that's one. I used to play all the time. That's really great. They don't make games like that anymore. I want them to. I wanted to come back out with these type games. Do you think they do or not? They re probably do right. I think it is just like you're right. I don't think they really do as it. Just like reinvented. Old Games Or like the backwards compatible Ted. Best skateboarding games of all time. Tony Hawk pro skater to number one How can the same? Oh I remember Tony Hawk underground. I was again. Oh Yeah I played that one too. skate three hundred. That's eight. It was never escaped gay. I was only Tony. Hawk Skater die unlike the old like the Nintendo game. I don't know yeah there's a bunch of them. They're they're fun. Yeah they were all the other ones. I don't remember so yeah. I don't know if there's been a lot of those games like sense. Ps Two you know there. Hasn't I mean I? I never see him even when I had. I had the original xbox and they didn't make those type of games for them even I really liked. Bmx TRIPLE X. That was a superfund game. Yeah it was awesome and I used to even know like I knew the BMX writers because of those games so like X. Games would come on and I'd be like oh I know that guy. I played him on. Maybe a Mex- Gamer. I played him on. Tony Hawk like I knew all of the skaters and and bike riders which is weird. Because if you ask me now I would have no idea who does that or if it's even still a thing. Oh well okay. Maybe there was some randomness. Bmx TRIPLE X. Because it says it earned most of its notoriety for containing nudity foul language and adult humor. The game allows players to create Humil- characters that are fully topless and view live action video clips of real life strippers with bare breasts. I don't remember I don't remember any of that and I think I would if I was a child. Yeah Oh the game okay. That's probably why that was That was only in the xbox and Gamecube irs all nudity was covered in the PS two version. I only had a PS two well. I had an original xbox but I must not have that game for xbox I had A. PS two though. So I must have played it for a PS two before the Anyway Dave Mirra he was that guy. Dave Mirra I was trying to think of the game called Dave Mirra freestyle. Bmi okay. I had that I had that. Because that's I was trying to think of the guy's name that I always played was Dave Mirra. Do you remember Duke Nukem? Of course course Duke Nukem Three D or whatever. It's called yes he's great. He's God's gift to women that's what he always said. Duke Nukem was one of my favorite games of all time. I played that again. I keep saying you know we played it all the time. Did David Play these games? All the time did you ever play any of the Of like Are Rated Games. Did you ever play Any of the leisure suit Larry Games. I never did. I used to have a couple of them for my computer when I was a little when I was a kid like in Middle School. What what did you do? What is it Let me look like A. It's basically like a puzzle type game but it's just about this. Do that is just going around trying to get laid all the time. That was like literally the goal of his life. But you'd go around you do these little things and then you get like a mini game of strip poker or like. There are a lot of them. Were Games and things like that. Yeah Okay No. I never played any leisure suit. Larry. Isn't he part. Wasn't that a guy on the simpsons. I don't know I mean there was kind there. Was STU DISCO STU on the Simpsons? That's what I was thinking of. Their users suit Larry was an adult themed. Video Game Series created by Al Oh it was published from nineteen seventy two thousand nine the first six leaders Larry titles Oh Yeah Magna cum laude was one of them and love for sale. That was when I had Were distributed by activision blizzard The game followed Larry. Laffer a Balding Double Entendre. Speaking Leisure suit wearing man of his forties. The story revolved around him. Attempting usually unsuccessfully to seduce attractive women. It wasn't actually that risque for the most part but it was like a lot of double entendre humor. Type thing sure I thought I was so fun. Interesting game there was also another one. I played all the time when I was a kid. Not I are rated one but it was called the adventures of Willie Beaming Sh. I never heard of this either. It was like a old like dos game. I bet you can still get a simulator. That was a cool game. What was that about honestly? Like there wasn't a lot of games like it. It you played as this kid. Will he be mission you? It was way ahead of its time. You would like be able to go around. Town is like a it was like one of those things where you could go up to like your mom and you could choose what you wanted to say to her. And then you could like go to the school. Yeah like find certain items and you had to and he was kind of a kind of a Dennis. The menace type character kid always getting in trouble. It was a great great great game. I wish I could. I could read you kind of like a synopsis of it. The player takes the role of a nine year. Old Willy Be mixed in a game that somewhat parodies the adventure genre. The game pioneered the use of in game graphics drawn to Resemble Classic hand-drawn Cartoon Animation. It was originally released for MS dos Nine year old Willy Beam I don't know there's a whole bunch to read about it but it was a really like a plot based game like text base. Kind of you had to say certain things right. I always love that game. That would get that game and there was another Lucas Arts game called full throttle where you played as a biker battle I think I played that yeah that was a little later on but that was a really fun came to. I love that game. Full throttle yeah. I the sounds familiar. I I guess I don't know if I've actually played it or not but boy it sounds like something. I I've had my life. Those were both like part of a game genre. That just doesn't exist any now that there were there were like called adventure games and you would go into a scene. That and full throttle was very much the same as like hand-drawn animation and you go into a room and you have to collect certain items that you needed to solve a puzzle somewhere else and he would talk to people and get information. They're kind of like. Rpg's yeah they were like the original RPM and And I was. I love those those games. That's awesome. Well we've kind of come to the end of our time here. Christopher yes we have yes we have so this was the final SNARF comics. Now we go back to regular episodes not the final star comics of final star SNARF madness. I'm sorry this was the final of SNARF madness. Twenty twenty and now we go back to our regular schedule episodes with no SNARF madness. Remember what we used to do. I don't what did we do? You know we did whatever we wanted. Yeah but we should have We like to do review our top ten for next. We should definitely if you guys got any Suggestions of a top ten for us to do. I'd love top ten. Yeah that we yes. We should absolutely have one of those ready. I think that would be a really good cap. We will have the scores for all of the brackets and who the winners are next week. And then we can also do a top ten perfect all right for starbuck this week. I've been Chris I am Jerry.
Rosamund Pike sees action in 'A Private War'
"From the Mon broadcast center at KP C. See this is the frame, I'm John horn. And thanks for joining us during our fall. Membership drive today on the show my conversation with British actress Rosamund pike in the new film, a private war directed by Matthew Heineman pike plays celebrated war. Correspondent Marie Kovin? Colin was an American reporter for the Sunday Times of London who was killed while on assignment in Syria in two thousand twelve even before her death. Coleman was a bit of a legend among her colleagues. She reported from conflict zones in Costa VO east, he more Iraq, Libya, Chechnya and Sri Lanka where she lost. Her left eye in a grenade attack in two thousand one when I spoke with Rosamund pike about a private war. We began with how she thought Marie Colvin dealt with the extreme danger involved in her work. I think me definitely experience here. And I think have a real courage is the fact that she she felt the fear and went there anyway. You know, I think ultimately she always prioritized the story that she knew wouldn't get out there unless she told it over her own mental stability health and wellbeing. She talked a lot younger reporters about importance of having a red line. You know way you'll boundary was and mocking that right at the outset and never crossing it. But I think towards the end of her career she started ignoring her advice when will last things that she said before she was killed was I have to go. I must see what's going on which I think pretty much defines everything that she did while she was out being war. Correspondent yes. I think Marie was off the school that you don't write about a Woodson in Syria from Beirut. You know, you you go that. And you know, she knew that she found a Sutton truth. If she went to where the people who is suffering. You know, usually Murray's articles that speak lay when not about, you know, the politics. Of wool. They were about the civilian suffering. That's probably the highest price that nice pay for in war zones. Parents go to bed at night, knowing if their children will see the morning. That is a measure of fear that I can never feel. But when you're covering the war, you have to go to places where you could be killed or where others are being killed a lot of beer. A lot of. And put one foot in front of the other no matter how a phrase your to make that suffering part of the record. She went to weather's people were she ate food she slept where they slept. She drank that water. She she. She was right there with them. And I think that that often astonished people I know that one of the essay the free Syrian army guys who took down the tunnel to homes which was the last zone Susan before she was killed. He was amazed. He thought my go soon as I met her. I realized this is someone who really wanted to give oyster our narrative and that surprised him, and it sort of made him want full at the end there, really. And I think lots of people have felt like that. There is a lot of writing that relief behind there are videos ship. Here's Barbara Coppell's documentary when you were looking for places that you can base your performance, where did you find the truth of the person that you wanted to play? Even though you're obviously not doing a imitation of Maria. You're doing your own performance of her. No, I think I'm I'm pretty much trying to be as soon as possible, you are really a choice you made early on. I didn't see any other way. Not with you Heinemann as a as a director. I'm an I basically wanted to give a version of Marie that was as close to document tree as I could muster because that's not every actor would make no one I played real people before and have not felt the same compulsion. But in this performance was. Was. Was that it was Matthew directing? And there was also the fact of how attracted I was to Marie the Marie that I saw in the footage in for instance, Barbara couples documentary when I see so speak. I thought I want an audience who doesn't yet know her to have that same indelible image printed on them minds from watching film of of this woman, who's whole career is in her body and soul, you know? In her voice. It's in Haman resumes. It's in the way her body adopted after she lost her. I I mean, there wasn't a part of that that I didn't want to take into my body. You know, I basically wanted to get myself the hell out of the way. And how did you find that way? In what we're watching everything that you listed. It was it was pouring endlessly, and I never stopped watching that bearing witness footage from Barbara couple. That was with me on my phone, the whole shoot I had her in my ear. I had on my phone. I had images of covering my trailer in still images continue a lot when you're sort of inside someone a still image can tell you how they got into that position. And how they might have got out of it. You know, if it's an you know, she was full of unu-. She was one of the most physically interesting, women I've ever studied. There was something kind of sightly crow. Liked woods the end. There was an angular t in her body language. The was the sense that she was always had a tension in her back almost as though she was ready for attack. And yet she had this freedom in these big gestures in this kind of rocking laugh, and you know, the way she smoked with so much the way she walked in. There was no part of my body language that fit this role. So I had to draw and get rid of it. All. Not you hide him in the director of the film comes out of documentaries. He's made cartel land. City of goes really interesting TV series called the trade, and he shoots in a way that has a high degree of Mlitou in terms of how he framed shots. But he also does something unusual in that he cast real refugees in some parts, you're shooting in Jordan, and some of the people in the scenes are refugees. And I think there's in fact one or two scenes where refugees are speaking to your character almost as if you are Marie interviewing them for a story. You remember those days? I mean like they were yesterday. I've never made a film like this that blurs the line between fiction reality like this. What is it's not fiction. It's it's, but it's pretend isn't it because I'm not really Marie, but but it really didn't feel like pretend anymore. You know, might set up a a situation in the the place, for instance, he'll mentioning where you know, in homes in the besieged city of homes. There was one basement. And that's. All the women and children were removed web-post able to shelter them from the shelling and Matt set up that room on all set, and he interviewed for weeks on end as many Syrian refugees living in Jordan as he could find and Austin to be movie, and they wanted to be part of the movie, and he set me up room with a translator with me. I could go wherever I wanted. He pointed out women who prepared to tell their stories, and I knew that this one woman was going to tell me about how she could no don't breastfeed because of the troll machine being under. And she go to feed this baby sugar and water. What I was not expecting to tell me was that a house had being shelled, and she ran with a three children and then ten back and realize one of children wasn't there. And I I said was your child under the rubble and she said, yes, she was under the rubble. I said how old was she? And she said she was five, and and that that was not part of a movie, it was just a woman telling me the truth. And I thought my God I understand. And what a journalist is given, you know, this is they are given the responsibility of someone who has no voice in the rest of the world. They are given the responsibility that story is handed to them to take care of and and get out there. And it was you know, I feel sort of soul James bye. Coming up more of my conversation with actress Rosamund pike about a private war. KABC podcasts. Orders include UCLA's Senate for the art of performance presenting LA's uncapped, celebrating twenty five years with this one time only evening of live comedy music and never before seen footage from the vault featuring deathly pitas. Julia Sweeny Jimmy Garoppolo Bob Odenkirk Greg Barrett, and Jill Solloway, also featuring Maria Bamford, Julie Goldman Byron Bowers. Justin Sayer and surprise guests tickets at capita UCLA done eating. Welcome back to the frame. I'm John horn on this special pledge drive edition. I'm talking with Rosamund pike. She plays war reporter Marie Colvin. In the new film, a private war in two thousand and five Kovin along with other female journalists reporting on conflicts around the globe, we're featured in the documentary bearing witness here cove and talks about narrowly escaping dangerous situation outside Iraqi prison in two thousand and three when you're in a situation like that you are pumped with Drennan. So I'm not one of these people's gonna pretend that it's not exciting. But I, you know, I'm not a cowboy don't say, hey, wow. That's great to be shot. I've been shot. It's not great shot at its terrifying. What would I try to do is? What's the story? I want to do. How do I get there? At least risk very often. That means I mean, we're we're the guns ours where the stories happening a private war is about cove Ines work and the toll that it took on her both. Physically and emotionally. But the film also deals with some comparatively lighter aspects of our private life, including her many loves here, again is Rosamund pike. She said I wear to wedding rings on my fingers. Remind me never to get married again. She said because you know, you get married, and it's all about a huge Montek, and it's all the romance. And then, you know, the Mon was put you in a box, and it's like the books get into it. That's how you that's how you're gonna fit into my life, and again, and again that experience of let down I mean, she always said God forbid that. I'm seeing a pseudo man, that's why she was will lapel underwear underneath, you know, the clothes. She wore in the field. But she's sometime said she occupied third sex. She says 'specially in the Middle East. She wasn't air. I'd era woman. She wasn't a man. So she had this kind of nebulous other identity six, but I also think there is something compassionate and sensitive about her writing that if you were to read it blind. You might guess that it was written by women. There's an understanding of humanity and kindness in her writing that maybe doesn't always come across in the writings done by men. She had a deep deep, deep empathy. And that definitely comes through. It was always about the detail. And it's always the detail of her writing startles, you, you know, there was the Palestinian go who she soul running from a refugee camp in Beirut. And there was a thing called. I think it was cool to the widows were on the the death Ron something. And and they'd run every morning to try, and you know, under the gaze of snipe is to try and get the food supplies into the camp. And this one go Haji allier med was twelve I think, and she ran and she got hit and Marie were this amazing description of her body, and the airing she was wearing and the choice to where these hearings on that day. I watched her parents over. She bled out. She was wearing Pearl earrings. She probably thought you looked pretty that day. I see. So you don't have to it was those little details. That mean that suddenly instead of being a Palestinian goal that girl is, you know, you'll niece your daughter. You'll you'll friend. She she had no she had a way of bringing these places that seem very far away very very close. And I think she went in with the sense of outrage as if it had been happening in oyster bay where she grew up this the movie that's coming out when it's very clear that it's very dangerous to be a reporter. It's very dangerous to be reporter towing the truth. And it's very dangerous to be a reporter telling the truth about powerful people. When you think about the way that journalists have been marginalized, and what people like Marie Kovin were doing even though this happens in recent history. Do you think there's a contemporary lesson to be learned about how dangerous it is to be a reporter? And how dangerous it is to be reporting about important issues of the day. Well, I think I think marines death shows that writing can be so inflammatory also powerful the leaders of Apollo regime feel they need to kill you for it. I mean that there's a lot of evidence that Shara targeted Marie Colvin. Yes. And Marie sister is is currently trying to actually bring a lawsuit against the Assad regime because there's more and more growing evidence that she was tracked right from when she left Beirut. And I think you know, if you're out the putting what would be unpalatable truths to dictators two warlords to drug barons to criminals to banks out there. You know, your someone who they want to silence, and I think truth and and diligent reporting. If it doesn't say what these people wanna hit they that that they're gonna use any means necessary to silence that person. And so I think you know, you don't appreciate that necessarily reading a newspaper sitting at home. You didn't think of the cost necessary to the journalist? And getting you those story you see in the film her work in places like relondo and Syria, but there's so many stories of work. She did in Chechnya's Bob way to nesia Egypt, Libya, where their stories that you wish you could have told about things that she done that you just couldn't simply fit into the film. Yes, they're all things. I mean, we started on movie in two thousand one when she lost her. I think it was a it was it was detonating point. It was half assed awareness of her invulnerability. It was a huge shift in a courage levels because you know, to go out into those ends one night is is is huge thing. But you know, there's the there is some of defy. Finding experiences for instance, the one in east team away, the U N compound out that was undecided and the Indonesian army was becoming more violent and the UN decided that you know, it was a situation that was untenable, and they were going to evacuate a staff and all journalists and all the U N personnel will being evacuated out. And Marie said, I go to stay because she realized that if she left she was the only shield between the people in the compound and set and death and her editor rang up and said Murray, what do you mean, you didn't get on the plane, and he said who's there with you? And she named two other female reporters state. And he said, what do you mean, you just three goals he that will amend gone and jets when she said, you know, I guess they don't make men like they used to and by some estimates. She saved the lives of more than thousand people by doing that. That's right. So that is a heart. That is a hard loss, you know, to not be able to to capture that. And we did actually have seen at the beginning of film that was written which was a party scene in London where she did recount that story. And she told another great story about one of us meetings with Ghaddafi when he tried to take blood, but what actually happened. You see is we filmed all the potion in Jordan. I we filmed all the Woodson's. And once we reached that level of kind of reality any scene back in London that felt written. To go. Well, she hated telling stories about herself didn't she always said she said when she was at a party. She was like, I don't want to be the person who I woke into a room and people say, oh, God, I'm the stories about Beirut's again, which, you know, she in fact, you know, she was an amazing entertainer, and she had a wonderful way with telling stories about her life. But she sent me didn't feel that. She was most interesting person in the room. Even though she probably was Rosenman. Great to see you. You too. Thank you. Good conversation about film. It's fun. Having conversations about this film because the something bigger than the film at stake. A private war is in theaters now, and that's the frame for today. I'm John horn. Thanks for listening and thank you for supporting KPCC during our fall. Membership drive. We'll be back here tomorrow.
Episode 114 - Remote interviewing - drinking on video calls
"Welcome to another episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast. In today's episode, we're joined by special guests jet Am Bianca to talk with us about how interviewing has changed in our new Kovin remote world beyond can jen, can you give brief introductions of who you are and what you do and what your favorite happy are averages? Hi I'm Jen technical recruiter recruiting partner with the partner ecosystem team. My favorite happy hour beverage is I have homemade CD Chai. Latte Day in front of me says blended like Ginger Black Pepper Nutmeg all spice black T. little actual an obviously Nice I think that's a first someone's had a CBD during Connor podcast. So well, done the I'm Bianca I one of the technical recruiters here at Netflix I support client in user base engineering with Jen and Ryan. And I only have water in front of but I still have some work to complete but normally, I would have a nice glass red wine right on give a favorite red wine. Now know any will cut it anyone come on it's covid. That's fair. All right. Well, let's also introductions of today's panelists. Gem started off. Gem Young senior, software, engineering, net flicks nine Ryan Burgess. I may suffer engineering manager at Net flicks in each episode of the Front End Happy our podcast, we like to choose keyword that if it's mentioned all the episode, we will all take a drink whether it's water CBD or I am drinking beer today gem out your drinking. But I'm assuming you'll be taking a drink along with us. What did we decide today's keyword is video. Video. All right. So we say the word video which I am pretty sure we're GONNA say when we're talking to promote all take a drink. So I'm curious to just start off. We've all done our share volume of interviews and recruiting efforts, all these different things that Kinda go along with hiring people. What has changed now that we have been forced into Kobe and being remote while a lot has changed, all of us are working remotely for one. Maybe not everyone but at Netflix's, we are at least which has introduced new and different challenges. In terms of interviewing, we do have to use video a lot more often now in terms of interviewing and cheers have to get really creative in terms of. How candidate experience and Times that it even takes a for candidates to interview. So a lot of things that are different, you don't get to meet your team in person anymore you don't get to meet your manager in person you don't get to onboard and person anymore which is no. I would say there are different different level of expectation setting both internally, and externally terms of what we're asking from candidates as well as what we're. We're asking panelists as well. Everyone's just. Facing different things at home in their lives You know there's obviously a lot of things going on the cultural landscape. So a lot of it has been leaning into just the empathy over communicating in having much more of a high touch as much as we can during the really challenging time and I would say anything everyone's really kind of craving connections. So what does that look like during this time? Especially while we're. Assessing candidates and vice versa ehrlich to hear that there's it sounds like there's a lot of flexibility to when you're thinking about those things because when I think of interviewing or even just my job in general is like things are unpredictable right? Like for my child could walk into the background while I'm interviewing and could be really awkward but I think as long as everyone understands that s just a normal thing that were right now we're all stuck in our houses were not able to really manage those expectations as balls that we would be if I was coming into a company to intervene and same fat also. There's just a little bit more grace and patients and I think I've appreciated getting sense of a different dimension to people even though it's not part of how we would assess them but. Sometimes there's humor involved in that in. That's not necessarily a bad thing, right? Like do you ever see some interesting backgrounds now you're like peeping into someone's house while you're interviewing them for sure I definitely have naked toddlers running around in the background and then people are deeply apologetic and feel terrible but it's hilarious and wonderful in it's part of them. So you know there's no shame there, but it is it is different and change a migraine like. I'd be like I'm going to remember that candidate because they had the naked child in the background. Yes for sure. It definitely creates a new level of getting to know people, which is I. Guess One of the Benefits of this time let's fair. We kind of have to be a little bit comfortable with the intimate letting people in your house that you may not know just their the virtual video call here's. Here's. Do you feel that people are more their authentic selves remotely or less I? Think that topics that may not have come up come up a little bit more organically. It's very rare that people will talk to me about their kids normally But when you have your kids screaming in the background or in my instance by Ab screaming in the background kind of opens a level of conversation and Camaraderie with you know different instances of your life that probably wouldn't have been present if you were interviewing not at home. With whatever circumstances you're in? And, there's resonance right like if someone has a crying baby in the background, there's something that someone can identify with 'cause they have their own situations going on and I think there's almost a safety blanket of sometimes being behind a screen that is really different than in person. So in some ways, walls do come down a little bit, but it also also comes back to the candidate to I mean, you don't have to wear pants to an interview like nobody's going to know. Exactly. Just hold up the top in your good. You know the rest of the doesn't matter so much. Mandates I've worn gains. I don't even know last time I put genes on when when are we going to March? I have not worn jeans since then it's like I wear shorts every day at. Mike. What what's the point in wearing pants? I don't know what's going to happen when it starts to get colder I. I don't know what to do. While San Francisco, you're still inside. So I mean, the temperature variants might not be nothing. It's not not a huge. That's true. I think you both mentioned some challenges or at least I heard like different absolutely heard that from each of you on the interview inside. But what's been the biggest challenge like I know you mentioned it takes longer but are there other large challenges that you had to pivot on how you interview I think one of it is just acclimating to different tools and really being very focused about the signals we're looking for so different shoes that you would pick up in person really leaning into communication during this time. How does that different over a video chat? Versus someone in person and being very very focused on that in tools have have been challenges while I can I can save for our teams really setting people up for success as much as possible having people play with them giving feedback as well as having candidates also. Prior to the actual interviews themselves. In also provide feedback on on hal how the you know the tools are working and if they feel They feel good or not, and especially for engineers you know you're. Typically engineering interviews have a white boarding session. where you're coating on whiteboard or you're building architecture and he can't exactly do that same thing over a video are zoom chair skiers. So that's another I think from a candidate perspective something that you have to think about how you will interview and do some solve some of these problems in a different way jen mentioned were using different tools. I'm sure other companies are using the same ones like jam board or something similar but preparing for that is different than preparing for a whiteboard exercise. So Canada's take more prep and making sure. You understand how the tool works prior to jumping on that call, and then the other thing I think for candidates who are interviewing and we've talked about this a little bit is just the fatigue of being on zoom. It's a little bit different than the fatigue of being person, and there's just that added layer of complexity to being on a video all day and interviewing versus being in person and kind of feeling that energy of being in the same room somebody or you might not be that type of person eats off of that energy but There is something different about being in person in kind of having that. Connection versus zoom zoom or video that is hard chairs. Racking up afternoons great. You both make interesting points I brought this up in a small team meeting. We had the other day about some challenges of working remotely. These are people that I've met in person the. Quick did on the same team for many years now, and they're still challenges that come up with team things like that. And a lot of that I chopped up to the fact that we all spend on hold everybody is all three decades of living. Understanding like the human condition, minor body language in subtle cues and nuances and things that are completely lost over video chat. So it's kind of like losing one of your senses have to go meet New People and make a good impression but it's all completely threw like this one channel and we lose like everything else. So I've talked to people are interviewing. Extremely challenging because you can't tell how you're doing. You can't get that like Oh yeah they're notting. So I must be doing something well or the other kind of looking down so I might feed doing poorly just like my my tone or McCain's or something like that. You just lose all that knowledge and helpfulness, and it's just solely depend on how well the person is paying attention to you and they might not even be paying attention to you. They might be checking their phone they might the. Dallas versus badly on whiteboard problem. Let me just check what's going on on slack or something like that and like Dunno I on secondary on call this week. But like there could have been a huge outage bit interview and I'm not. I'm looking at my screen looking concern in the first like Oh and as a interviewer, I have to be respectful of that stay focused but I know not everybody like I. Now, Netflix's has the best interviews obviously, but I know not every company has that same opportunity to have that focus. So I, what? What's the story like? Sorry, those a long rant up to this question, what do you feel the general story for remote interviewing as at maybe smaller companies? Do you have a sense on that pulse? Is it easier because they're more flexible or is it more difficult because they may have more things going on you? All have the pulse of Cowboy. Engineer. It's happening outside my bubble I think it's a mix. I feel fortunate that I feel like we probably have more resources in tools. Around trying to. Navigate this new landscape of remote. Interviewing for smaller organizations I believe they're doing things very similarly but probably maybe a Lotta more scrappy by nature but also they have different things to struggle with based on. The climate of what's happening the stability of things So things might just take a different tone some comey the slowed down completely on interviewing and hiring altogether because of a lot of these challenges that are coming up not just the technical challenges and everything, but also just the the current state of things and nature of our business by this and they might have to slow down on hiring I. Think it's a really challenging time right now for a lot of companies especially, the smaller ones I love that you brought up the body language. Part though I think that one is a tough one. No matter what is like even thinking just in meetings in general but like your eye contact is so import I don't know if you all are actually like looking into my eyes or you're like looking off into some other portions of the screen those signals are aired. You just missed like all the time and that's really really difficult very aware in meetings even not just like I'm very hyper conscious of it and we've given interview training specifically around this time so that we can communicate interviewers. The your attention. Is that much more important during this time because I've noticed when I've spoken to people and their eyeball slightly moves the last or the right or there's a different reflection of light like I know something's popping up on their screen or they're like typing in like a hot and the reacting. But I know that they're typing 'cause I've done it before. So. It's those types of things that we've had to reinforce to especially our interviewers when we think about candidate experience and really being pathetic about being present in you know just being there in the moment 'cause gems point is like normally if you're an engineer and you are on call your in an interview, you're not getting alerted like you don't see that. But when you're on your screen that slack message pops up that like email pops up all those alerts can distract you and absolutely throw off the person on the other end who's just trying to answer your question and if you're not really giving it your full attention. That can throw someone off and it really only takes one time for that happened to just throw the whole interview off another one that I'm curious to hear. I know I definitely spent time talking with Jim and Bianca about this Gen unite talked about events awhile ago. But I'm curious like events are a big portion where you not only get to network with people you get to meet potential people hiring you get to meet each other. How are you all thinking about events conferences all those things that we're now do not really have I. Know There's remote conferences but you missed that networking portion like how are you all dealing with? Mercury and standpoint it's hard. I think one of the trickiest parts of this whole thing is what the goal is from an event. So right now we could host a large event, but you missed to networking portion most likely or we could host a small event but. You know you risk people not wanting to show up because again. People are fatigued from being will working all day in general, but also being on video conferencing all day. So joining another event networking over video conference is difficult. I seriously I'm like the person using word. So I think we're not the only ones dealing with that. You know we've seen events in general just decline most of them are large scale events that don't have as much opportunity for networking or they just have kind of the chat that goes off, but it's not as much of an opportunity to connect with people I would add on the other end of that you know people you know humans as very social creatures. This is an incredibly challenging time for us to be so. Limited. In specific parameters that ran. So people are really craving connection at this time. So we can't forget that a you know during the climate even though it's like zooms and whatnot there's also potentially just lower a barrier of entry of reaching out to people just to have a casual conversation I've known of other people just doing like social distance walks or maybe it is like a virtual zoom coffee chat to just talk about whatever it is not necessarily role or anything and I think it's kind of a a really ripe opportunity to to be able to connect other times. Where people are just really really busy and they haven't been as necessarily OPTIMA, upper new opportunistic than maybe some are now I do agree with you that there is a lower bar entry in some ways often times I'll think about it from a perspective of I liked to meet other engineers and hear what they're working on Maybe I am hiring. But what at times I'm not it could just be like eventually I'm going to have to be hiring for a certain role. So it's always good to talk with various people that are out there and oftentimes. If they're in the bay area is, let's grab coffee. Let's meet up in San Francisco coming into Netflix's office, and that always takes a little bit of coordination taxes always great to meet in person but there's a lot of like, Whoa, what works for you there's a travel time. There's like we gotta meet which location there's all is back and forth, but it's so much easier to say, Hey, you have thirty minutes like this week and that works and you can just jump on a video call so much easier. Cheers. But So that has been a little bit easier in early March. I actually had quite a few coffees setup for some. I don't always have coffees setup, but for some reason, I had quite a few of them. That was just like we kept pushing them like well, we were told not to be like we shouldn't be meeting up. So let's push it out maybe a month just like now it's like let's just jump on video because we're we should not immediate up. It's like this is going on long. Enough Yeah I think the one on one connection is a lot easier I know we're still working on our side like the larger events, but I totally agree the barrier for the one on one or maybe even smaller group connection is lower in the cultural norms have shifted right? Maybe what used to be imposing might actually be more welcome welcome invitation to just connect during this time. And I think part of that is also encouraging our leaders teams also whoever ends up connecting to be really thoughtful about you know the stories and the narrative around our work life people are genuinely very interested in how companies are perceiving their workforce. Had We view mental health during this time? And how do we think about our teams and how we care for our teams? Has Come Out I think it's kind of Nice to is it's a unique situation that we're all dealing with right there's rarely times were you all are dealing with the same thing in life than you brought it up in it's funny I think during this whole crisis, there are many reasons to be positive. There's a lot of negative and that's really easy to fall into that. But focusing on a positive is more difficult and Jan you're actually brought up a positive point, which is it's easier to connect with people that previously would have been harder neck with just because. We all know where we're at right now we're all at home in front of computers all day. So have you have you found that universally be true like? It's just easier to reach candidates from a different backgrounds or just different companies that historically would have been a little trickier to lineup because just because of various reasons, I have found that to be true with the specific business that I'm working on Bianca kind of speak to that side, but it has been easier to connect. It's still challenging though because I think a lot of companies are thinking the same thing right and so a lot of that is still a pretty competitive landscape and then there's The conversation around remote hiring and the opportunities around that how are people thinking about where they want to be located especially when the situation is indefinite but you'll always have people who are don't want don't want to be connecting, which is totally fine. But we have noticed people being a little bit or receptive to reach out I. Think Right now in particular is such a great time to network even if you are not looking for a new role as a lot of people have mentioned so far just the connection point of being on equal. Ground in terms of you know we're all dealing with different things, but we're all dealing with the same thing at the same time. is just a great place to start and you'd never know what's GonNa come out of those connection points I. Think people are starting especially because of this Jenny mentioned this crave for more connection because more. So socially distanced I think people have been a little bit more opened. Some of those networking opportunities to learn more, and even if it's for the future, a lot of people are saying right now this isn't the right time, which is completely understandable. But it does open the door for the future and you never know like when that door is going to swing wide open for the right timing to be. J. Mashing company should be very, very wary that you know with everyone working from home it allows more flexibility for people to take opportunistic calls not because there are looking but because why not I'm a little bit more in control of my schedule I'm working from home want just to have our chat with someone I don't really know but up to get to know them and just understand their story even though I have no interest in leaving where I am. probably just keeps companies on their toes a little in terms of how they're thinking about retention. That's a valid point because it is there's a lower barrier to entry. You're not trying to find duck owed into like some meeting room to take a call or like, oh, I can't can't make that meeting because I have some some appointments or always joked when people dress fancy and they come to the office and then they're like. Wait a minute later this afternoon you're like Oh are you interviewing? It's like You don't have to worry about all those little details. It's a little bit easier to actually take those calls which is. Really good for the candidate experience. Counter to all that experience is like me personally I I generally try to explore my options like once a year a few times a year I think that's wise if you're. I. Can hardly I? I mean you. You are the only person that carries the most bit your career. So I do think it's always keep your options open. However I felt personally I am less bullish on exploring new opportunities now, just because there's a lot of uncertainty. So in in certain times, you cling to what you know not saying Netflix's terrible place to work. I. Don't care put in the effort whereas previously I'm like out all interview I'm not interested in leaving but other view from own sake and now that is not the case I'm like I'm good. Have you found that to be true or people exploring more or less seem especially people from the electric companies? Do they seem less inclined to to leave? I have not seen any chain like level wise. I haven't seen change. It's been pretty similar to previous years. I think actually more people are responding to me telling me that they are not interested versus in the years or the timings outright versus in years past, they probably would have just ignored the request. That is a little bit different at least from the roles that I've worked on But I. I've been surprised to see how many people are willing to explore new opportunity because I fall into that same camp. Gem of like I have no desire to put in the effort to apply have conversations. I'm really happy my role, I love my job. So. I think it just depends I think the people who would have explored this year regardless are still exploring the people who. Might have explored. This year are maybe staying put a little bit more because of everything that you mentioned stability. They know what they know people not a lot of people are obviously wanting to onboard remote in meet everybody remotely necessarily some people do but not everybody is fair. I think play for me I probably take in less calls like I'm still open to talking to people who potentially. Might be interested come work, Netflix but for my own situation like I, just don't have the energy like even jumping on for you know like had friends like let's grab a happy hour things like that. I'm burnt out like I. I'm like, you know what my break is like I don't WanNa beyond another video call. Here's so like a big thing especially when you're someone with some levels of experience. Is Things you would be the culture of a particular company or you're trying to join. And given that we can't. As candidates like we can't visit offices and meet the team and shake hands and like all those other like cultural modalities that we count on for getting a sense of. What this company is, what it represents. For the hires that you do make had we follow up or does Netflix's follow up and just ensure that like they're messing with the culture everything that you said it was and that is still messed with like things that we wouldn't historically have to put so much effort into. But now we should just make sure they're they're fitting in with the culture. The culture fits in with them. Yeah. on boarding has been a huge A. Huge. Kind of undertaking for us which I feel like we've made a lot of progress on because when you think about the experience itself, right it's about bonding managing motions day to day when you're dealing especially with remote work and people in wanting to feel connected and invested two new teams and new companies So it's been challenging and so a lot of that has been having to navigate around the creativity of really having the you know. More one on ones also more just like random either zoom dinners or things are ways to kind of create connection opportunities to the teams and I know that higher manders having daily check ins just to see how they're feeling and doing there have been kid at actually had the opportunity to go to the office themselves just to get a feel because they are open technically but it's a little bit different just so they can get a some. Signal and feel about the environment that could be but otherwise, a lot of it has been incredibly high touch and we always get feedback based on like how can this better be improved but they're they're pretty aware of the challenges of the situation and We're doing the best that he can to make feel as personal as possible to make them feel welcomed and you mentioned investment like how do you? How do you ensure that because? To me that would be extremely difficult joining new company and to feel invested in the company. When you haven't seen the office, you have met anybody. You're now just essentially doing the same job you're doing before but for a different. Code Base essentially for engineers. Yeah. I mean I think investment is pretty multifaceted. A lot of that is understanding who's on your team who are going to be your partners Um who's your manager? Who are the cross functional partners understanding the business? What are you gonNa be working on where the different problems like just being patient and having grace with yourself in terms of knowing that this is GonNa take some time to ramp up on and even more so. to to just allow for time to absorb all versus feeling light. From day one, you're going to need to build all these things to feel invested in a company rate oftentimes, the investment comes from like progressive time understanding familiarity and a lot of that is understanding like who you're working with as well as the business itself, and that takes time naturally let alone virtually when you're you're voting remotely I totally agree with everything that Jen said. With Netflix, in particular, I don't think many people would join Netflix's because of our buildings just to be completely. Are Majoring I'm the fan of the building. Very Yeah. Yeah. I'm not I'm not trying to bash on that, but we don't operate similar to a lot of the other big tech companies that were often you know we don't have the apple campus we don't on the facebook campus a beautiful campus that's functional and it's well-designed obviously but most people joined net flex because of our culture. And that's something I. think that's very specific to Netflix's but we have so many touch points and opportunities throughout the interview process to really showcase that culture and get people bought into the culture and I think that's really are selling play in particular and every company is going to have a different selling point. I would hope that culture is exciting point from the majority of people. So if you can get people excited about the environment, the culture that they're walking into I think that that makes them pretty invested from the start even though you're right like they're not going to get sued building they're not gonNA give see where they said you know obviously guys have a great view of. Our campus. Those are some other ways that I think we can make up during this remote time in any company really can make his finding those things that are really special to them. That would make some of the excited outside of the the environment, the working environment because no one's going to be able to provide that right now. I'm glad you brought up the culture aspect because. I think that naturally especially in the net culture naturally shifted. So it's like this is a little bit weird for all of us were very transparent and talking through those things and it demonstrates in when you're interviewing. But then even I've had to onboard an engineer my team early early into this covert world, our he was fully remote and it was awkward like I. Felt like this. Is Really Hard I. Feel like I wasn't doing a good enough job as a leader but a lot of what started to play out was like our culture came through in the sense that like this is how things work and it just naturally kinda showed up in how the morning worked or how the day-to-day worked and I think that to me was really helpful to see that it. Just naturally happened like I was stressed out about it personally. But on the other end, it played out really well and Mike Engineer on my team constantly said he felt like things were going really well, he was onboard while were in my case I was worried that no, we don't do a good job because we've never done this but a lot of those things started to play out and. A lot of it because of the culture had especially with our on boarding I remember I aborted not long ago last November and I remember feeling like this could easily be done remotely and it's not about the physicality your attachment to the you know the location necessarily, of course, meeting my peers and colleagues and everything was really important but that I needed to do my work was. have been done except for like sending me my laptop but otherwise, really see must process with instructions in the series and everything. So Oh, it's gotten better I. I've been at Netflix's for over five years. It was not not as nicely planned out. So we've evolved which is good I. think that's the thing is even in this world I think back to an engineer that started on my team. If an engineer starts on my team tomorrow that is going to be even better because we asked for feedback, we learned what works what doesn't there's even been times this week that I've heard of some engineers that have started where because there's a lot of fire is going on in California, their laptops were delayed. So that's a challenge. You're like great you today you know the first session is we set up your laptop that you don't have. Those sex things, and we just pivot and try and figure that out as we go. It's a challenge but it is definitely been interesting. But what are the things that I think is super important right. Now, if you're interviewing or looking for a company is thinking through that company can provide you obviously in this time but the flexibility point about culture. I think is just monumental for folks to consider as they're applying to or thinking about changing companies because that's Kinda make or at right now, and if companies can adapt to the current environment in. Flex in new ways evolve as we've talked about. I think that that's a really great sign of a healthy company in this time. But if it's very rigid still or is able to have those inflection points than I don't know, it might not be something that would be interesting to prevail Janka. How would you suggest as? An engineer applying to company acts how do I assess that? They've do not like how do I evaluate that question? There might be signals on the careers page or their jobs page that they talk through how they're managing or handling covid videos might have blogs or they might even have suggestions about what their interview process looks like. Sometimes, it might just take talking to a recruiter to find that out or manager who reaches out to you I don't think that there's one right way to do that. But I think that it's an important question to broach with any conversation that you have at this point to find out what companies are doing to the flexible to be. Supportive to be empathetic to situations because you might find that the new company that you're looking at actually more supportive than your current company or more flexible, and that might even be a bigger sell for you to consider any move. How should engineers think differently about applying for roles we talked about interviewing but obviously networking, we've talked about that. But even if I'm approaching new role, how should I be thinking about it differently than in the normal I just go to jobs staging applies there are things that we should be thinking about differently as fine for roles. What we look for remains the same in terms of what what is something different or what is unique about your story about your experience about your perspective that will contribute to our teams and especially, this very unique time to be really evaluating in reflecting on what you want your store to be. We often get flooded with resumes are people who who say they can just the baseline is doing the job, right like or the technical skills, your software engineer. But what is different about the way that you approach problems are your you know? Your story are the experiences you've had before. That will be that much more compelling than the next resume. That has exactly the same languages and the same companies listed that will help you to stand down and so it's Really more take that time and really figure out that narrative versus just like impulsively or reactively just apply just to get a job business could totally agree jen I actually saw an applicant today I have not seen this in so long I probably said on the last podcast not do this but I saw a cover letter I have not seen a cover letter in ages and I read it. It was so interesting and I I think if you really WanNa Roll Dot Sunday that you should consider because I as a recruiter I don't see cover letters anymore. So it's something to consider to differentiate yourself potentially come back to partner ecosystem plenty of cover letters. wintrust. Yeah. I can't remember the last time I've seen a cover letter jet. I. Love Your Point. I. Wish we had met before because you're just making somebody points I I'm agreeing with today I'd love just what she said about the NFL cultures the baseline is the ability to do the job I think people miss that I think for any company is just like yeah, if you made It into the interview in the interviewing round we know you can do the job. Now we're just assessing like how much above and beyond you will make our company team. Better if we hire you, I did a lot of reach out something to twitter and people say like, how can I stand out? How can I make myself representatives myself for these companies that point of being able to stand. Out and say like here's what I bring in addition to being able to do. The job is really powerful point and I think I usually appreciate when people have done their research on hey I've read all of these engineering blogs or there's this one thing that really stuck out to me about the way that they're approaching this problem I'm kind of curious about XYZ and it really kind. Of just embeds them in part of the conversation in the way that our teams are working. So what perspective can you bring to the table? That'd be really different verses I, love. NETFLIX's A reason for wanting to work here is I. I'm a Netflix user and my family loves Netflix, which is pretty much majority of many answers that we got, which is also a majority of people are. Watching, it flicks. So before we get into picks, I'm really interested to hear. Now someone's interviewing our liger. They've Kinda got passed a few calls they've spoken with the. The recruiting team and they're kind of coming on their quote unquote onsite, which is not really a thing right now, what advice do you give to prepare is there is it the same type of advice to prepare for the interview or is there nuance into the fence sense that it's now remote I? Think there's obviously the tactical advice that we mentioned. Earlier of like play around with the tools, make sure that your Internet's working. Okay. Those types of things aren't Internet is so key like Internet's like if it is choppy like I've definitely had conversations people in choppy it's hard on my I almost evaluate this. Yeah. Totally, and now my husband and I have to text each other to get off video the. Sometimes I like frozen but on the actual preparation for how to show up I think you're right now everyone we've talked about this multiple times but everyone wants more authenticity and showing up your complete self and being vulnerable in that way, and it's okay for kids are running in the background sometimes, and it's okay if you're not in a fully private space, if you can't be I think for the most part, the companies that you want to join are going to understand that and be supportive of those ways areas of your life and the companies are aren't as supportive like maybe that's a sign for you that it's not a great fit and but I think the more that you. Show UP AUTHENTIC DOT release coming through video I think we've mentioned this multiple times throughout this session and then obviously there's the other things of like read more about the company like Jen just mentioned like understand like how you might insert yourself into this role or what you might bring to this role. One of my favorite questions asked people is now you've learned about learned the team at the team like what do you think you're going to bring in? It's like your opportunity to really brag. On yourself and understand what you will bring to the table. We Wanna see that on our end assuming other companies would to if you like the remote format also like index is higher even more. So and I mentioned this earlier on the communication aspects of things, there are less cues signals for teams. You really get a sense for how you are in person. So really be able to convey and communicate articulate your ideas even more key during this time even though it's behind, you know screen. You measuring just adaptability as well as. Some. Of Our interviews problem solving is really important and we use these tools. But how are you able to kind of communicate what you would be like to work with on a day to day? That would leave our team really excited and impressed over over zoom I think it's sometimes an excuse that like well, it's vc so I can only do so well. But in some ways, we've also seen incredible interviews during this time and incredible Yossi so definitely leading into that and. Don't be afraid to ask questions and it's nothing is strange or weird I. Think people are usually still a little bit timid during this time to to ask more clarification things. One thing not always remember is you are interviewing the company as much as they are interviewing you and if it doesn't come across that way then again, maybe that's a signal to consider a level. The those are such good pieces of advice each episode of the Front. Happier podcast we'd love to choose picks that we'd like to share with you all that we found interesting it may have to deal with recruiting or interviewing, and it may not. So I'm curious to hear everyone's picks for today gender on a started off. Fair I recently saw the octopus teacher not flex. I'm an avid diver so I love anything just under the water and it was I thought it was very beautiful sight recommend watching it documentary. And am a currently reading several of Robin Sharma's books civically the monk who sold his Ferrari and the five am nice. Which one you recommend more I'm leaning towards the monk who sold his Ferrari I feel like it's one more broad also I mean the titles. Amazing I. Just read it because of that title neither. Are Polymer Clay Syrians I've been obsessed with these. There's so many small makers on social media platforms. So I don't know if anyone's interested in, but if been so great large for big holes and everything to. I don't think that they do just yet, but I will market that for you gem woody have for us this episode four picks today I don't have much interesting. I have two that are pretty fun. One is a website by so named been bar, it's called. It's as if you were doing work and it's pretty much an endless game I I don't know if you call the game if there's no ending but essentially you're play an office worker of some sort and you're just constantly trying to finish tasks but the many close to finishing passing pops up and it's it's built in such a way that you're always so close to like clearing. But never quite can it it? It's a little addicting just because it's like this this endless loop. Tasks in your day-today or they like pretend tasks there pretend tasks with. They almost seem like real work. The way it's written. It's a lot of fun I I. Recommend. Checking out I'm terrible at describing Gem Are you saying you don't have enough work to you having to take on more work. That's what I'm saying right fortunately, you're not by bannister anymore so they don't listen to test. My second pick is I really WANNA pick the boys season two. I it's a show of Amazon prime I really enjoyed season I thought it was like fresh and a more realistic take on what happens superheroes actually existed even though we have a million superhero movies, none of them are quite realistic as you know, they all involve anything capitalism real world scenarios in the boys captured that really weld season one season two as just. Spoil it. It hasn't been strong. So my pick would have been the boise's into, we'll see how it ends. But so far since they're doing episode a week, which is really annoying to adult I guess my anti pick. If, you're listening work Amazon Prime Video. Come on. Come on. Season two, nine as an unwitting I'm trying to just have give give it some time I like that you're both urges just being optimistic about it like at least that you're going to stick it out try and see if it's good. So I, guess it's not quite the anti pick yet. You're not saying don't go watch it maybe it'll be good. Maybe it won't do you ever given the the history of twenty twenty so far I think we are desperate the cling on any vestiges of hope optimism that we can. So we're really really holding on for the boys season to come through and be like asked this the show that we. Needed right now but so far it has not delivered. All right. Well, I'm curious to hear how it turns out for you. I still have yet to watch season one I just didn't get around to it yet, but now you're not really selling it as much like I don't have season to to look forward to yet. So maybe after there's two seasons I'll be more excited if if you say it's good if it's not then what's the point though season one is worth watching is actually better than I thought it would be we randomly just started watching it and finish in the whole weekend after it come out. So it was very surprising. Plus it's free anytime that someone's like I binged a lot in one week and I'm like that's a pretty good selling point. So I probably do need to check it out. I've heard good things. I have two picks one that it's a more expensive router but I feel like it has made my life better in this whole remote world I was struggling with like we mentioned earlier with Internet. Connections video not in the greatest and it was mainly because my wife and I are both constantly on video meetings. So it's like you're both trying to do this all at once and of course, the Internet of things your houses covered it in a bunch of things that are just pulling the Internet. We're struggling like feel like there's connection problems all the time I ended up on to the. Amplify Alien Mesh router. It's amazing. Got The WIFI six capabilities. Things are lot faster. I'm getting faster speeds and I have not had a connection problem and it's been a good week or two that I've had this also definitely recommended it's a little on the pricey side but his made my life easier. So that's all worth it and then I have a show that I found really light and Easy to watch, which is absolutely something that you need and twenty, twenty eight now, which is the American rbq showdown. It is basically a barbecue contest show. It's great. It's on net flicks just came out. So highly recommend not one out. Really Nice easy thing to watch is it like trying to consume as much barbecue as possible or is there are there New Jersey's based on like how your? Barbecue? Like I don't know if that's a relaxing thing for medium CBO just stuck. Oh No, it's good that you ask that clarifying question it is actual like cooks that our barbecue in their face with certain challenges that they have to cook with a certain protein and maybe use certain things that they're not used to this kind of got twists and turns on. It's just it's A. Fairly. Easy. Watch I liked it actually learned a few things. I've been doing a lot of smoking over the past like summer and I learned a few things through it. Before we end the episode, I WANNA. Thank both Bianca and Jen for joining us where can people get in touch with you wink Dane. Chen Pi is probably the best place you can find me on Langton. Bianco Bortles Luc- kind of hard spell or you can reach me directly. My email is BBC at Netflix dot com great. Wall as a pleasure having you both on a lot of great insights and we're continuing to learn how to interview remotely. I'm excited for us to be back in person, but we're figuring it out Jim Working People get in touch with you. I'm on twitter. At Jim Young jet hub at Young, I do not have an instagram if you see on instagram that is not me. Yeah it's funny. I've seen a few jam Yang's or job There's a lot of instagram's, but it's not gem I keep telling him needs to just join the Klan on Instagram just get with the Times but yes, he is not on Instagram I know. You can find me at Burgess D Ryan on twitter on my Instagram I. Believe it is Ryan. Dot Burgess I post photos from time to time not a ton but once in a while thank you for listening today's episode you can find us at front end. Happy Hour Dot com subscribe to us really whatever you like to listen to podcasts on and you can follow us on twitter at Front H. we are on Instagram as well. I've run H H any last words thanks for having. Let's fun. Dude again John. lactates.
An Institutional Perspective on Real Estate Investing, Crowdfunding & Financial Crises
"Welcome to real wealth real health, the show that empowers you with insights, information and inspiration to achieve your version of financial wellness learn how to balance living a full life today with planning for the future. This podcast is brought to you by Alpha investing a real estate centric private capital network that provides exclusive investment opportunities to its members, and now here are your hosts ought appeared to Rico and Daniel Coca. Panel welcome back to another episode of Real Wealth Real House. Our guest on this episode is Craig. Ramsay Craig is a senior executive with deep experience in institutional real estate capital markets with a track record that encompasses over forty billion dollars in private direct transactions completed across asset, sale, mortgage, financing, joint venture and funds formation products in major institutional markets globally, his experience includes senior executive positions within the investment banking, private equity and tech enabled investment management disciplines the episode today begins with a professional investors viewpoint on crowdfunding real estate, which is an important perspective especially when we learned the size of crowd funding versus the size of institutionally. Institutionally managed money and real estate investments. Then we take the conversation into the theme of the financial crisis where we are now comparing and contrasting that to the great recession, we get an institutional view of real estate. Especially, how registered investment advisers are as are considering real estate as part of their clients portfolios, Craig provides a ton of data and we're including links in the show notes for everyone's reference, though our world shifts and changes so quickly, and whether you're listening to this at its launch or later, Craig's insights are invaluable at any point in any market cycle crave. Thanks so much for joining us today on our podcast. Pleasure to be here at great to have you. I'm I'm really excited about the episode today. You are a long time. Real Estate Finance Executive in investment banking private equity I. Know We're not allowed to talk about what you're doing now because you're in stealth mode. Launching a technical investment platform, but your background is so deep so broad. You've been in the industry for a long time and what we want to focus on with you is our current crisis how we got here and how it compares also to the previous financial crises. Now you've been through more than one so for the listeners you know we're going to get a lot of information to help contextualized. What's going on right now? With a historical in a deep financial view so to start Craig? Can you give us a brief background about your yourself? Sure I guess I start with I entered the real estate finance industry in kind of a strange way these by by way of my background, my graduate, which was at Boston university was as a classical musician studying music performance. And shortly after graduation and Started in that career, and you know got off the ground and had about six months post graduation, an automobile accident that, while no long lasting damage created just enough nerve damage for me to need to assess a career change. After a couple of years of working I, went to business school. The alternative was law and my father, who was in the legal profession, taught me out of that one, and I went to the graduate school business at Columbia in new. York and following that entered a career on Wall Street focused on the real estate industry, but specifically within the finance discipline of that largely because one of the things that really hasn't changed about real estate years. Is that it's an exceptionally capital, intensive business and anywhere from. Sixty to ninety five plus percent of the capital, it's used in real estate acquisitions or portfolio construction is really from third parties beyond the sponsor. There's always gotta be some skin in the game, but it really is. In a sense, not only from a debt perspective. You Know Fairly highly leveraged as an industry, but it's also. A lot of third party equity that comes into into play as as you mentioned in the intro broadly speaking, my career has involved positions in senior management at ultra bracket, investment banks always interestingly, perhaps focused on the private side of real estate capital, the big move in the nineties was public issuance of publicly traded read equity while my colleagues in those firms certainly focused on that. I had always been on the private side of things it was. An interesting side of the business where in will will get to two points on later, but the private side of the market is. Almost uniquely uncoupled from the public side in terms of how returns work in terms of the correlation with other asset classes in that provided a very interesting basis for me to to grow in my career approximately five years ago now I after the Global Financial Crisis I've been doing some consulting a consulting assignment for a investment management firm in the Mid West. Came through in asked about you know crowdfunding in how all that works because they thought there might be an interesting way to. Combine? The financial advisors that they had inside of their registered investment advisor complex, their their parents had that with raising capital from those clients for a captive investment management firm, and I built that platform out. Roll that out got successfully adopted by fidelity investments on their wealth adviser solutions platform, really covering over a lot of the. Time at least shortcomings in crowdfunding business and here we are now I'm presently working as you mentioned on a technical investment manager that is operating right now in stealth mode so. That's that sort of brings us to date I. Don't know if there's anything in there, you. WanNa drill gala. Grind down everything. But actually let's let's start with with this I would love to just quickly talk about the crowd funding first before we really get into the what I mean I'm super interested in the finance outside every. You know but let's talk a little bit about crowd funding, because we have all different experience as you know. Launch crowdfunding late twenty thirteen at came at it with my own kind of background, coming from hedge funds, and you know seeing this, go retail I saw the the potential, but I also saw the need for institutional capital from the perspective of of essentially scale of allowing businesses to thrive before you could really onboard retail, so it's an interesting yesterday interesting few years. So what's been your perspective coming into it from your very deep background? Will. Let's. Let's take a step back. Talk about the quantum of the market that talking about because the scene. Is Very much crowdfunding is in industry, which best case is still sorting itself out. You know the. Largely not entirely because there have been some off shoes, but it's it's incubation was really in the wake of the jobs act. And and the ability of. Typically smaller issuers to raise more retail kind of capital. The idea with jobs act was to streamline that process reduce regulatory requirements so that you could reduce cost of issuing equity. To new startup, kinds of ventures that historically have been locked out of the more institutional side of the world that now. That certainly logical reaction to it, but then the question becomes okay. How do we build a business? If we if we already start with the notion that there isn't in place, institutional market for Real Estate Investment Management. Let's keep it real estate, although it generally applies to other kinds of alternatives whether it's private equity or hedge funds. That's the one that's sort of real estate one. That's received most of the attention. The. The major projections that I have seen these these data come from Ernst and Young in a report that was put out about nine months ago, doing this the first week of June twenty twenty. Estimated that in twenty twenty one year end. All real estate crowdfunding globally would total about nine billion. US dollars or the equivalent in in local currency. Okay in. That's fine. That's very nice. But just put it into context. Globally institutional investment managers. There are seventy eight. Institution global investment managers who individually exceed the size, the entire route something market. You were talking about in just again by way of context. Real Estate Institutional Real Estate Investment Management as we know, it has basically been around forty five years or so Orissa the employment retirement income Security Act was passed nine, seventy, four, seventy, five. Gerald Ford signed it. It's fundamental. Underpinning was okay. If you run a pension from, you have to be diverse. In the market responded with that like creating a series of not only real estate, private equity managers in this was just private equity to corporate acquisition, being formed with the idea that the investors would be pension funds who had to diversify? All that itself and I'm sure we'll get to. This later. Is was backed by a great deal of academic research on modern portfolio theory primarily by Harry Markovits, who ultimately won a Nobel Prize say in the late fifties for this work. It took fifteen years for it to become. You know more than just a nice idea, Of Law, but since that time in the midnight seventies, you seem globally this. Industry of investment management targeting the institutions as clients as investors. Grow from zero to several trillion dollars with. You. Know a couple hundred firms. Eighty percent of the global real estate investment capital. It's out there, and it's it tolls in the trillions of dollars completely. So while crowdfunding. Has Gotten off perhaps to a nice star email. It looks like it's starting to sort itself out a little bit with a couple of folks raised over a billion dollars as as platforms, most of them have not most of them are still bound by that shaking out process, and and just a couple of themes around that. If I were to assess it right now. I think although it's getting better. You're talking about investments themselves that are also institutional quality largely during by transaction size limits, which may just be a function of you know I one hundred thousand investors in my database, and only five thousand of marketing invest in any one deal now cap. Raised, my average has. Those those things. I think you're also seeing. If not questioning at least some concern over the fact that the asset management function is essentially being performed by d-i-n-o-v-i-t-e asset managers. I mean these are these are firms that five years ago, most of them did not exist, and now they're taking on investor capital in their investing that. An even if they have great deals, you know it's still an investment products. You have to take a look at who it is. That is going to be the steward of that of that capital. They? Do you mentioned this earlier? They are all facing the issue despite the fact that they use technology in their operations to ring cost out of what would otherwise be. What you know clerical administrative. You know human labor and they can automate that through technology and move funds and all of that and save a lot of money. crowdfunding still represents a fairly expensive way to raise equity. When you start layering on even in the upper reaches of it with some of the title for stuff, the rag aid, plus where you can raise fifty million dollars a year. That's still quasi public. The standards are a little bit lower. Very expensive all of a sudden in. You're looking by the time you load the marketing budgets in all legal fees and everything else. You can raise fifty million bucks per year inside that vehicle, but at least in your first year. You're looking at something. On the order of two hundred million dollars of expense five percent in all of a sudden. You're Kinda faced with the age old problem. How do you scale in with the limitations on size of becomes very difficult to scale those costs by by contrast. The institutional market in which Five even seven and ten billion dollar funds are not uncommon Euro I. Just told you there close to eighty firms. In and of themselves have ten billion dollars of assets under management. You can play much larger A. Check sizes asset sizes, and you'll the absolute dollar cost of an attorney bill for instance, if that gets spread over one hundred million dollars. That's very different. Drag on! On return that it would be if that transaction was ten million or five million etc, and so they they while attack. Has Sort of taken a wack at at the cost problem, it hasn't eliminated it and you're still sort of stuck with Matt in when you compare the costs of crowdfunding relative to the investment, Management Industry that that services the institutions. There's still a huge gulf between the back cost burden that that the you know the that the retail investor doing. They're gonNA sort it out just like everybody else. Has You know? I was I was joking with a colleague earlier. that. On this on this very topic that. You know in in the early nineteen hundreds there were hundreds of automobile manufacturers in the United. States this isn't. This is a I. Say that because. One, dealing with anything different in that sense, it's it's a new industry. It's going to have to shake out. We're going to have to figure a- It will go through a period of consolidation, following best practices etcetera, and it already has been right it. First Failure Yes. Yeah you! See how it shakes out. Yeah, interest- interesting. You're saying I I, did a quick search. This is not like jeopardy. Question I already have the answer to in my head, but the size of the real estate market, so you talked about eight billion dollars in assets in crowdfunding just the whole thing, whole thing's eight race at eight billion. The size of the. Tank. And based on like two thousand eighteen data from from the MS from MCI, the size of the professionally managed global real estate. Investment Maher. is almost nine trillion dollars. Thousand Times bigger. Yeah, just a different way of saying the same thing, it's an industry it has to grow. It has to scale and has to get signs, you know. Let's talk about it in a few years when we seek traction, who at least the early winners are going to be? Let's got a long way to go I. Mean you're comparing that or we're comparing that to? Institutional investment market that has been. You know growing for forty five years and has soared it a lot of those. Problems out of the out of the mix. Like any new market, though the crowdfunding private syndication, where all know really popped up as a product of. Of the existing model rate and no individual retail investors tend to have. Lofty expectations to to say it nicely, probably bordering bordering on unreasonable a lot of times, but you know they want direct access to high-quality institutional real stay, they WANNA pay no very low fees. They want the ability to make commitments on a on a deal by deal basis, they want all of the ongoing portfolio manager in financial reporting that comes with it institutional deal lawyers accountants. What have you? It can all be done, but at the same time. The existing model hasn't provided enough of an outlet for the average retail investor in you see that when you look at larger aggregated data around no percentages of. Investment portfolios in alternative specifically real estate that number you know typically drags. Especially for those folks outside the. Top half percent of earners in the country typically drags the twenty percent. Suggestion, you see from a lot of financial advisers, so your question really is aware. Are we in this process stage one stage? Two of creating something that you're does appeal to the individual investor who wants something that is a little bit more hands on than a re may be more transparent than read gains that aren't correlated with the stock market, but isn't necessarily kind of shout to the past. The Country Club equity were writing this small check in so. There's gotta be a hybrid. No one of the benefits in my opinion of a venture capital is that. Gives Industries the opportunity to experiment a bit to see what works with you before you have a company that can exist on its own I e a profitable company. We go out we can. We can kind of play around in the first wave of craft. Did a great job of of showing us that there's demand for this type of product on investor side. The question now is how do you optimize the investor experience so that you're getting all those things that you'd want to see? From an institution are as it institutional investor, but you're able to do it on terms that at work for you and so give. That's the problem I think we're trying to solve here. If you have a comments or thoughts on that long Soliloquy I just when I would love to hear them. Totally agree with all of it. The I think you're right in. There are several issues some of which I pointed out in my earlier comments on it. You're correct that you know earlier. syndications included the typical country club syndication that was largely. If you look at it from abroad market perspective that was not a broadly available product was done by affinity Peo-. They call it a country club syndication that it was hey I know through some social connection or some business connexion, a local real estate developer who is pulling together a small deal to do a local shopping centre, or even the largest case in that kind of thing you know. Building A. Two hundred unit multifamily, and that pretty much taps out the quantum available through that personal networking kind of thing that any local developer might have you know what's really being attempted here is to. Not, commodities the real estate investment itself, but to commodity ties the product or the wrapper around which individual investors getting access to high-quality real estate investments. That's that to me. It's it's more. And maybe this is just because this is what I've been focusing on for the past five years. But I think the plumbing in all of this really makes a difference. You. I had the benefit of of being inside the institutional real estate world. Where I've seen the last twenty twenty five years of growth in that business in you know once it got off. The ground is mandated by law that you had to diversify, so there was tailwind to the investment managers that they knew they had installed client base that had to buy their product or that of their competitors, but the industry as a whole has had a tailwind. In it's been, it's it's grown radically as the baby boom, I approached then entered retirement. Pension Fund system has grown alongside it so that there was always the need to put more and more and more money. What you're describing on the retail investor side is is sort of a different kind of thing. Army there is certainly the need for the correlated return. You mentioned the absolute return offered by real estate. In just within a portfolio construction, real estate alongside other direct alternatives really plays a very powerful diversifying wool to return in I'm hearing this. Post Cova. D- were or post inception of Kovin. As registered investment advisers in people contacts in the industry are saying look. The need has never been greater to access that correllated return. I think the question is is still. How does that happen on an economical basis where just using the institutional universe as as a a measuring stick, you know where you can still have highly professional investment managers, advising these vehicles and pulling together these vehicles for the benefit of the individual investor in that that's where I think. It just by way of example. That a firm like Alpha differs greatly from the typical crowd funding outlet with crowdfunding is is. Almost always the self directed investor. Who's got to do all that work him or herself? You're structure in providing. Yes, you you have. You know tech enabled administrative processes capital movement processes. You're pushing out information to investors via electronic media. All of those are means of of putting Alaso around the fee bucket. That would otherwise have to be charged. But it's providing the third party. Advisory Perspective on things that. To me is is a part of it because if you're trying to compare this to institutional investing, the institutions have world class adviser to them, and they've scaled that business in a scaled it around sides. You know if you get the best advisors in the world. They'RE GONNA have to be paid a certain amount of money in. They get back tears up just like every other the quality of any other occupation. It's easier spread that costs over a massive portfolio in the real trick is. How do you scale those costs down to make not only be access to institutional deals available, but also make it such at at reasonable fees an at reasonable minimums. Those are those are really the the the balls that are being juggling the air in. It's largely around that. I think the industry is going to shake out as as it goes forward. I think thank you first of all for the you know for the for the shout I guess for for off. I mean we, we've always had the perspective of technology being in service to the business as opposed to it being a technology business. This is a real estate business. Even for myself, when I first joined real estate crowdfunding in I came at it, Nah from the perspective of a professional investor and I thought how fantastic we're going to change the world. WE'RE GONNA change the industry. You know lofty ideals with good intentions, and then it quickly became apparent that no, this is real estate, as as not is what must be focused on technology in of itself is not going to change how you evaluate. Underlying risk in real estate you I, totally agree with that. I would characterize it in the following way. The tech really gets to. The haven't doesn't get to the what that's that's. It's still real estate investment management. How you do it. You know the day to day of checking rent roll making sure that the rent collections are okay and all that stuff. That's still pretty much the same. It's all the connective tissue to pull all that stuff together that we can now automate and copy paste in that works. You know it rings an enormous out it's. A. Former colleague of mine. Once described his view of at least early meetings with potential crowd funders, who were trying to raise money from him or use them as an underlying fun sponsor that kind of thing he said just got so tired of people showing up telling me that the business was going to be revolutionised, and that was no longer going to be investment management. It was going to be technology, and that he you know at the time of twenty. Five Year veteran of investment management would being told this by four groovy guys who had a server. I it's and I'll I'll put that in the in the the sources list that I give up a put his name up these these longtime colleague and friend, and it just captured it for me that I think. That view of things has certainly changed I. Think we're now past that initial euphoria God. This is going to change the world. Maybe, it's not so much about disruption as it is. Efficiencies optimizing trade offs and tech will now help us get there, but you still need top-flight investment management. You still need top-flight ills on the retail side. You'd like it to the at low minimum, so you can broaden the potential market place in. The cost that goes into can be scaled down to appoint the technology and using standardized documentation, all kinds of other other things. But. That's basically describing how tech has affected every single industry on earth right. Yeah, we're not act different army. Yeah, our were not an I. think just to take this a little bit in shoes. Some of the financial markets you know the jobs at came. At a time, it came out of the financial crisis like so much innovation. Something that I find really fascinating is the Chinese symbol for crisis is composed of two characters. One means danger in other means opportunity, and there's always all this opportunity that comes from a crisis if we're year if that's are focused, and so the jobs act in in all this innovation in attack in the e sees and all this stuff that came from. The the crisis of two thousand eight, and we're in a crisis now, so I would love to shift the conversation into the you know the crisis that we're currently in what you're seeing, and also how it compares to prior crises that that you've lived and worked through. I guess just again. Just some some Wilkins on. What we're seeing here up the easiest way to measure this in financial terms. The Dow on February twelfth hit a peak of twenty, nine, thousand, five hundred ish, so just shy of thirty thousand. Three weeks later. It was below nineteen thousand. It had lost thirty seven percent of its value. In in three weeks. Since then ninety days after that low exactly ninety days, after that low, which came on on March fourth, were back up to twenty, six, three, twenty, six three hundred ish couple points below. So we lost thirty, seven percent initially were already backup, so that the. Gotten to the peak again yet, but we're still only eleven percent down now. That's remarkably resilient remarkably quick. However And you know this is this is where the nuance comes in. You know the Dow is not a measure of current assessment. It's a measure of current assessment of future events as they play out for these particular companies, these are long standing industrial, so the Dow may not be the best proxy which is the easiest for me to get you know immediate data on. But the the idea here being yeah, we got wacked by almost forty percent. Three quarters of that loss has already been recruit now. We're in territory where it's like. Oh yeah, it's it's you know eleven percent off. That's not great bought. You know worrying correction. Territory were not in all my God you know, what are we? What are we going to do? Compare that to two thousand eight, which was the global financial crisis, and we'll get to some the real differences, but just comparable numbers September first though seven. The Dow was just under fourteen thousand. Five months later, it was seventy thousand a forty nine percent drop. In interesting, not only was the drop deeper, thirty, seven versus forty nine then. The it took much much longer to to come back, it took two years to revert to. The same eleven percent discount if you WANNA, look at it that way, the same eleven percent loss that we recovered ninety days in the most recent crisis, so things are moving faster. I think that really Kinda gets to. What's the difference between these crises in? We talked a little earlier. Before we came on. That you're looking at a market right now or any economy. Pardon me where second quarter twenty twenty. Looks like GDP. He is going to be a full forty percent four zero percent lower than second quarter, two, thousand nineteen, and so we're trying to pull all these data. Together the main thing is you can already see yes, unemployment claims or brutal there up forty, forty, two million since this started. The pace of new claims is slowing down. You are starting to see things opening back up. The EEL. Maybe a little slower. A lot of the future is going to depend on how quickly that opens up whether we get hit with the second wave of covid or or not. But the bottom line is we came into the Cova crisis in pretty solid economic you, we you could say everything was all ready fully priced into the market. We had historically low unemployment across demographics. We had growing GDP, if not four or three and a half percent, it was still better than it had been. You know for a number of years. It was still pretty solid. argue about tariffs and all that other nonsense. We went into this crisis in relatively good shape. With the banks themselves also being in much better shape than they were previously 'cause. We can't forget that the. The global financial crisis seven going into away, o-9 was really a credit lead crisis. You know we had a housing bubble. We had a lot of leverage on on personal incorporate balance sheets. They're there. That leverage is much lower. I think just in terms of the real estate business. You know. Private Equity Funds that focused on real estate were about sixty five percent lever on average. They're now about fifty to fifty three percent lever on average, so not only do we have? Less leverage, which is you know less of an overhang, an albatross hanging around the neck. There's also much more dry powder that at sitting there to provide rescue capital, and the banks are much better capitalized than they were at the time. They're not on that trip wire. You know they there will be bank losses, and you can probably count on a good years worth of those, but I don't think you're seeing anyone talking about big banks being in danger of insolvency. For instance you know in in so in that sense I think this one is is really really different. Then then, the question is how how rapid as the recovery. I mean we know what it took to get out of? The last one prices on real estate took about thirty six months from the low to get back to pre. Crisis Levels. The latest numbers I've seen on that same index, which comes out of Green Street advisors very very reputable firm. The decline in Oh eight in commercial property prices was thirty seven percent. The Peak Creek Ovid to now is about eleven percent, and we're already starting to see some improvement, not in the index itself as kind of lagging indicator, but at least some of the underlying fundamentals where Oh. Okay, the worst is behind us. At least the pace of decline is slowing, and that Sir tells us we ought to be coming out of this so I, do think broadly speaking largely because of the underlying causes of this. You know a was accredit induced crisis. It took a ton of time to work that through on balance sheets. This was not the same. There was generally widely available credit. It was inexpensive. It's still largely there. The banks are going to have to deal with some losses like they did then, but it's to be nowhere near that problem in. There's a lot more private equity on the sidelines to do to pick up that slack in. It's really just going to be. When do you get back to a market where willing buyers and willing sellers are transacting in the absence of distress because I? I'm always very nearly about looking at things. Get done. They're maybe great opportunities to do that, but that will be much more episodic if you will hate. Here's a great deal. It's time to pounds and we can buy cheaply enough so that we can ride out another year of problems if that's what we have to do, it's it's great, but that's. That's unique. That's ad hoc. It's not systemic. We'll know we'll know when we're out of this thing when things start to trade again and where where sellers are looking at last year's cap rates. Actually transacting. The. Interesting thing from my perspective is that. You know when we were coming out of of two thousand aid and. Depending on who you talk to people on our team, they would say you know never really even paid the price for two thousand eight. Where some things happening, you know the background in the way of quantitative easing in what have you that? Really allowed us to escape in the short term without really feeling the punishment, and no one does that come does come down the line at at some point, but that aside briefly your the question then was nowhere to. We need to see certain financial numbers in order to know warrant starting to make these trades again today. It feels a little bit different in that. The data point that we're looking for is much more qualitative raid, and there's a lot of uncertainty around what the world is going to look like. Going forward from a pure behavioral perspective as opposed to. A financial perspective in so be interested to hear how you think that distinction plays into the ultimate timing of. Any any rebound could expect to see her. Yeah. There was actually I will give a plug here. There was an interesting short article by a guy named Matt Hershey. Who is a business quaint of mine who works at a firm called host while they are? The. Very? Very top echelon of private equity oriented firms in the real estate space, and they've been very active in publishing along thought pieces. As this is going on in Matt Mix exactly that case when he says you know when we were when we were looking at. At reaction to the global financial crisis. You know it was painful. It was horrible it was. Awful, but at least we had very solid numbers on it. We could measure feds reaction. We could look at the banks. We these were all relatively objective data points that were available in that made decision making. Much much easier what you're describing now and and I agree with it is. Going, to be a lot of decisions are not made based on the underlying objective data. They're going to be made by choice for instance. What does this mean for housing in New York City You know the typical the typical you don't high-rise has thirty five stories at an elevator that six feet by six feet. That's has less than optimal in terms in. How does that work well? A lot of that is going to be dependent on how the residents feel about that are they walked into that? Is that a condominium product or or that sort of thing, and so the short answer to what you're saying is, it's going to be really hard to. Get solid metrics on his so much of it is going to be wrapped up in human choice in human feelings where it's not just data driven. It's going to be. Feelings driven and and concern driven. That squish year stuff you can measure it after the fact by seeing. Reactions but it's hard to do it in real time because. It's it's so squishy in it so imprecise if that makes sense. Yeah and the other thing that comes to mind when when you're saying this is you know as far as behavior, but also people's ability to pay rent with what with the job losses, and for for those who are on the unemployment entered getting the federal subsidy. Especially, they're able to pay their rent. You know people who maybe weren't even this much money before now they're making more and they're able to pay rent in. The lower lower income bracket, but as we also talked about their job losses going upstream in so, how how are people going to be able to pay rent in six months? Basically is what I'm getting because we're still going to see more job losses, even though the things will start to reopen, we also have civil unrest, which is a topic for another kind, but that's also going to affect a lot of things. We don't know the repercussions of that yet. So you know as you said it, you know indices are indicators. Sometimes lag, but also on future. Ideals are projections are, but it's so hard because we're getting. We're getting so many. Completely unanticipated unimaginable things getting thrown at us right now. And so you know a lot that I just said, but basically it comes down to you. You know it's almost like moment by moment right now. We don't even know what we're going to be in six months. That's precisely correct because every single. Facet of this every factor that goes into trying to assess how this is going to work okay I. Own a multifamily complex. What am I! collections look like what does the employment history of my current residents who may be? Are they getting close to not being able to pay rent, or are they actually doing a little bit better off for the time being until the federal subsidies run out? How is that going to play into this even in the larger economy? A- personal concern of mine is you know I? Don't know how the economy any I know how we did it. Last time there was a lot of quantitative easing over several rounds, because the assets that had been created got blown up so that they didn't get devalue quite so badly. How does that all play out here? What's what's the dollar will be worth? Are we going to be a period? I mean the classical economics would tell you yet? You write three and four trillion dollars worth of checks in excess of receipts, the only way ad that is to inflate the currency. However you're doing it in a you know a declining economic environment, so are you? Are you stuck like we were back in the late seventies with Kinda stagflation, which no one even knows about now. Where where you have inflation, but stagnation are on an economic front. So these, and in each case, it's sort of like. Okay, what does tenant demand lookalikes four high rise in new? York City I. Don't know, tell me how scared people are about getting into a six by six elevator and I'll let you know more, or is there a you know a staging tax fix that can be done to that to mitigate that problem. What it really boils down to is there these are going and rolling in a sorted out once we start start to see trends emerging as to how much each of these countervailing factors pushes against. Some other factor pushing exactly opposite in coming to an optimal solution and Unfortunately just to get back to Daniels question. I think a lot of that boils down to you know personal decisions which are not necessarily made on the basis of hard data, Balon, really squishy things like feelings and fears and optimism and wear. Each of US individually shakes out on all at stuff. In the context of personal economic circumstances moving forward. Yemen I think that's that's spot on and. And I know Craig. United's spoken about this before. No, we love talking about behavioral economics into this idea of investors or individuals, not always bathing rationally, and so you're now in this interesting scenario where a lot of those theories. I think you're going to be tested. We'll see. How folks behave going forward for a group like us, I would think for for most no investment firms whether you're real estate or otherwise, it's about being flexible nimble of course, but also being patient. One thing we talk about a lot is the type of real estate where investing in doesn't require us to be a first mover how we feel much more comfortable, sitting back assessing the data and then leveraging relationships to make note what we believe are are smart investment decisions you're. There are groups on the other hand to you're out there trying to. Benefit from being more forward, thinking forward looking maybe there is a period of time, though particularly dirt, the beginning of Covid, where you may have been able to find a larger discount on a property. Then you can today you know in my opinion, you are more often than not taking on much more risk than your potential gain you were you were acquiring, but you know there are folks out there kind of behaving in. In. A variety of ways depending on their own individual risk appetites so just a long way of saying it'll be interesting. How see how things play out in the same way we look back to two thousand eight as a you know a historical learning point I think this will be something similar in, and however long it is in the future when we deal with that major global economic issue that results from. Climate, change or something else kind of outside. The hands of of humans are the control of humans rather. I think will point to this and use a lot of this data as well and so at the very least really interesting time to be alive. It is in a Am I. Think you're one of the interesting things that investors should be looking forward on. You know as they contemplate investing into a post Cova world. In selecting investment managers who you know are are offering products for investment in a let's not forget that pre cove and we were in a pretty toppy market. You know we just some of the fundamental data under that we have had an exceptionally lengthy period. Of. Very very low interest rates now the impact that has on Cabo values for people who are. Contemplating entering the real estate market. Is Low interest rates means you can bid price because your leverage is a lot cheaper, it allows you to offer you put more leverage for per dollar of cash flow that otherwise. You're sort of chasing values up. I. Think is very important to take a look at you know who was smart in didn't by the last deal before we learned about Kovin it, it's. Because it really. I'm not in the in the business of dispensing investment advice, but I do know that the people that made it out of the last one better those that. Were maybe a little more sober were chasing the last two hundred basis points of return, and were much more interested in being solid stewards of capital. Making sure that downside was protected either on the revenue side, or on the capital value side, or some Combo platter of of both or other factors. I do think it will be like other shakeout. There will be winners and losers in this and the losers. I mentioned that on average we. Are Much better prepared for this one that we were in the Oh eight Oh nine global financial crisis you know were in the low fifties lever as opposed to the mid sixties then, but there are still those firms that are very highly lever that you know whether it's in real estate, an stocks you know where their margin up and leverage is a very unforgiving thing. In you know to to the extent that people were aggressive pricing in levered up. Those are going to be the ones that where the chickens come home to roost fastest and most brutally, and that happens in every market decline. And and to be honest. That's the most challenging dynamic we face as stewards of capital for no retail investors of varying investment sophistication right. which is this idea that if I show you a project that has a return profile that you knows high teens may be low twenties from an average annual return that presents really really attractive to you, but you know we know from our experience that. The risk in that transaction. Given all the other factors that exists in the marketplace today is probably not worth it in. So you know we live in this world that we have to find this happy medium where investors are saying while I'm okay with sixty percent leverage even though that takes my. Fifteen irr deal at seventy five percents. LTV Down to twelve. You know in a vacuum in some investors. Get that a lot of them than don't your? They look at return profiles on a vacuum. Unfortunately, we spend a lot of time. We share a lot of. Educational Material. Is We record these podcasts trying to get that point across that? Every deal needs to be looked at on a risk adjusted basis in there, a variety of factors that play into what creates risk in there are different ways to look at downside protection, but that's always been the challenge with the retail investor is finding that happy medium where you put something in front of them that they lake they want to invest in, but that also know cut it protects them from some of these known biases that no we know exists, and you know from personal experience or really easy to get excited about a deal that has. Huge potential upside. You know we're all chasing yield in a lot of respects. That's where a lot of times it makes sense to rely on real estate professionals to say hey. This is the universe of nor risk profiles that you should be looking at for no reason x, Y, and Z so a little bit of an aside, but you've just. This whole thing is very given the the current uncertainty that exists today that way of thinking in my opinion as become more important than her. I completely agree at I would point to one metric. And it's. It's one of the things I always love looking at when I'm looking at a potential deal. Or understanding someone else's deal is how much of that total you mentioned. Irr How much of that total return is cash flow along the way versus terminal value when you exit the property. And you know because. Terminal value or. Exit Pricing. Even. Though it's five or seven or ten years down, the road can can have an enormous influence on total return. It matters more when there's higher leverage involved, and so you know these things are kind of like a balloon. You squeeze it in one place in. It's GonNa pop out in another. And you know there is sort of an organic in the market running up to the current crisis. Things were pretty fully priced in. It. Back to me, what placing a lot of emphasis on terminal value means really is that you're making a lever bet on what capital markets are GONNA look like? Five or seven or ten years in the future whenever it is that you're going to do that because? If that deal that. Seven years hence you are selling is not being sold into the same kind of capital market. If capital is more limited, it's GonNa limit the ability of your buyer to pay up. Therefore you'll. That's GonNa be a big driver of your return, and so it's always with an eye to that downside. Protection I fundamentally. I agree with you on that there. It's it's answered. Investors have short memories right because over the last you know seven eight plus years now what we've seen across the board is is great compression in so no deals that didn't measure up on a cash flow perspective for lack of a better way of saying you had were bailed out of generally across the board by Capri impression. That's not something we expect to see going forward. If it happens great, will all take the additional upside, but you know you need to be underwriting twenty five to fifty of captured expansion at least. We would think into your execute, but you're right. The the significant majority of investor returns on most of these types of private real states indications come at at sale, and the sale is heavily impacted by the cap rate and these deals. You know this is something. I won't about all the time. Our Ford looking projection based, which makes it very easy to a narrative that is not always supported by underlying data, and so you know having groups financial professionals, acting as intermediaries who are able to kind of help, even the playing field, so to speak in in terms of how you under evaluate transactions. We think is particularly important now as part of the reason why we exist I could not possibly agree more. The most optimistic human being on the planet. Earth is a real estate sponsor. And as investment managers. It's your job. It's my job to. PUT The veil of reality over things. and to say well, that's that's all greatness. Lovely you're you're. Projecting out of sixteen percent return, but do you really think interest rates are going to stay exactly where they are for the time being really think you're going to get ten percent per year, compound annual growth in rents. I don't think so. What is the incremental return on the money? You're getting from me to reinvest in this project and improve its performance. Is that realistic? How have you figure in the brand? New apartment complex down the street that's in permeating right narrows to start construction in the next seven months. And what's nationally your rental and it's in maybe it's. Just? The fact of having been in this for over twenty five years. You learn every trick in the book and you see how it how it works. It's it is fascinating, and we need optimistic real estate sponsors. Very clearly need demonstrated of. More sober voices functioning as an intermediary. Between the direct users and providers that capital. I think that's such a great statement and Probably really great place to wrap up as you were saying that I was thinking about you. The word real within real estate, and what came through as you're saying is that we have to be realistic. Like this like really realistic like meet the these deals in these ideas in these ideals, but at the end of the day it may be boring because practical boring in pragmatic boring, but I think we stand a better chance of realizing gains that we all want if we if we kind of keep our feet on the ground. So that that as you were speaking, I really thought about that, and you know just incredible amount of. Wealth that comes that comes from. You would love to have you on again. Maybe when we're actually coming out, whatever this is the these massive crisis sewri. You know we'll see how well I did. Yeah let's have that conversation, but I'm sure that I'm sure that you'll do well so thanks again so much for for joining us to end sharing so much insight in multiple different ways. It's been very informative very educational. Will the pleasures been mind? Thanks for having me. Thanks for tuning in to Real Wealth Real House. We hope that you've enjoyed today's episode and found founded both informative and insightful. We welcome your questions and your feedback about today's episode. And especially we welcome your questions about specific topics that you would like us to cover, so she doesn't email at hot cast out the I dot com and a moment we really appreciate ratings and reviews as. As it helps us grow our online community at our interactions with you, and we'll also be linking to a number of relevant articles on topics that we might have touched on during our conversations. Some of them are abroad. Some tech were always aiming to provide information that helps you better understand mechanics of building this healthy financial foundation especially if you're looking to do this with real estate.
TTPs for COVID-19 Threats
"This is the weekly podcast for cyber security professionals. We answer your Cyber Security Questions. And share stories from the trenches about how security professionals engineers are protecting their organizations honed. As always is brought to you by a new harbour security does your end to end provider of security services and security solutions if you're looking for complete cyber security protection for your business in a security partner that actually gives his visit us at. Www DOT near harbor security dot com. This is just and I am your host of coned. Today we are talking about teepees in cove it now. Tt's stands for tactics techniques and procedures. So you can think of this. As the fingerprint of a specific attacker or certain signature that exists that would identify set attacker security researchers insecurity analysts. Use T T P's to identify nefarious actors within an event stream so TT's is really just a fancy way to describe the actions activities that a potential failure sector would be using or is conducting in order to carry out an attack so a case in point or an example might be if you have an Iranian hacktivists group. They would have certain T T P's that are indicative of a certain type of attack or a specific threat actor who's carrying out the attack security analysts will use these t t ps across a large data set or series of to try to identify which event is being carried out by which actor which subsequently could indicate remediation activities that could occur to prevent the attack from proliferating further so with the recent pandemic and everything. That's been going on. You would imagine that there are many threat actors within the market place today or within our industry today that are trying to capitalize on the Kovin or corona virus news or activity in order to conduct either hacking attempts or try to scam organizations out of money as of February of this year. The number of Kovin at nineteen related domain creations is averaging between five hundred and seven hundred new domains a to carry out these types of tax and so basically what this means is that any U R L that might contain a combination of cove. Nineteen Kovin Cova. News Corona Virus Corona virus. Help or any derivation of something like that is being registered as in new domain and attackers are using these to gain trust of users. Who might be honestly looking for news or information related to to the pandemic now within our security operations center today at New Harbor we track a whole host of TT's but read to the covert virus or the cove in nineteen pandemic and the corona virus. The number of t t p's that are currently in the marketplace today is so numerous to go through. All of them here is going to be too many so what we'll do is we'll include the teepees within the show notes. So that if you're listening to this you can go back to our show notes and collect the TT's either for your own self edification or if you're running security operations center are MSSP. You can pull in this information and hopefully it helps out your operations as well. Some of the more common or some of the more nefarious ones. I'll point out here so the first one I would highlight. There's been a large number of phishing emails primarily targeting Italian email addresses containing militias microsoft documents with embedded bb micros. That are being used to drop a trick. Pot exploit trick is a banking Trojan. That can be used to steal victims confidential information and drop additional malware. What we've been seeing from these emails is that the email subject line in most cases has a fixed subject line that actually has the Talian tax which could in the show. Because I'm just going to butcher the name here. Trying to repair announce everything but additionally with this email from the intend to create credibility within the email is being authored by popular and well known doctors who work in Italy employed by the. Who another common campaign. That we've been seeing is emails using the Fedex trademark in phishing attacks claiming to provide victims with information on Global Fedex operations while the cove in nineteen outbreak continues. These emails often will contain pdf files that are listed as customer advisories and when the customer opens that pdf files the victim becomes infected with the local baht. Mauer the next one I would choose to highlight. Here is also being used as a lure and what researchers suspect is a Mustang Panda campaign. You're not familiar with some of these names. In the security security vertical we do have creative names for our threat actors but Mustang pandas suspected Chinese government linked threat actor group. The fishing lure used in this campaign was actually a raw file. Purportedly containing statements from being Vietnamese Prime Minister regarding cove in nineteen the raw file contains. At dot link file that when opened the victim executes a execute -able via command line to run the militias script contained within the link file when the militias script executes a word document with Vietnamese tax will be displayed to the victims and ultimately a deal L. side loading technique is used to download and execute a militias a malicious payload that creates a command and control server from that user's laptop therefore effectively giving that threat actor continuous access to that users. Pc once that threat actor has access to users. There's numerous types of attacks that could occur directly to that user either compromising files on that PC potentially compromising for their credentials of that user. Also that could then become part of a larger network that would be controlled by that threat actor group to carry out other in different attacks on other users that will include in the show notes comes from the North Korean. Baby Shark malware. Maybe my favorite because baby shark is my daughter's favorite show a this malware claim to contain on South Korea's response to the Kobe nine thousand nine hundred virus that includes militias Microsoft word documents that drop malware on the user's machine when it's open today within the security industry. We've been seeing that. The Corona virus pandemic is being capitalized on by threat actors and is being weaponized as a way to spread spyware embarrassed types of malware by all kinds of nation state actors from North Korea to Iran to various Russian threat actors and the breadth of tax span. Everything from from email. Phishing attacks to crafting nefarious. Url's in capitalizing on Internet in news watering holes for victims looking for information on the CO VIDOR Corona virus. So at this point looking forward in the outlook for these types of attacks in these tee pees in my opinion will be relatively short lived but we can expect to see them for the next few months and especially for as long as the pandemic continues to go on and news of treatment starts to come forward about potential cures for this virus. So if you're an organization trying to figure out how to protect your company and your users from these types of attacks there's a few things that you can be doing on your side and there's some actions that you can be taking to mitigate the risk the first thing that you're doing as an organization is to be educating your users to be vigilant and beyond the lookout and somewhat skeptical of cove in nineteen are corona virus news. The other thing that can be done for those organizations that leverage outsource security operation centers or. Mssp's ask your security operation center or your MSSP what they're doing to capture tease. In order to protect your organization. And then lastly if you operate your own Security Operation Center look to this episode show notes to capture some of the teas that you can import into your own security operation center so if you are an organization or user at an organization who finds themselves in a situation where you think you might have been compromised by one of these attacks whether sufficient attack or you have known command and control coming off of your network if you do not have the expertise in house to correctly investigate in quarantine these types of attacks. It's important that you reach out to a trusted security partner for help. In order to mitigate the most amount of risk to your organization and if you're looking for a trusted security partner with the expertise to help you out new hardware security can and will be your trusted security partner to guide you through the investigation and remediation of these types of events. Please visit us at. Www DOT new harbor security dot com. This was just the Pimm Lane and I'm your host of pawned. Thank you for listening next week. We'll be touching on artificial intelligence and weather it's helping our security industry or it's just marketing fluff.
Introducing Viral: Coronavirus
"Okay I know what you're thinking. Should I be scared of current virus? Should I be panicking freaking out feel like a lot of people who normally have a really good head on their shoulders are losing it right now and it's really hard to know what's true and what to think? I'm TJ Rafael senior producer. At three UNCANNY Ford and I'm reporter. Emily Saul we're launching a new podcast. Viral Corona virus. We're here to walk you through everything. You need to know no hype. No rumors no. Bs just the most factual reporting as up to date and accurate as possible from the most authoritative sources. We are facing new dance. We learning and mistakes can be made. We'll likely see a much more significant outbreak. I'm not scared but I'm worried. I think wearing a mask may feel good like we have some sort of barrier but I am very sad to tell you. It just doesn't work. We'll tell you what you can do now to protect yourself and your family and we'll explain calmly and clearly why so. Many people are freaked out and walk you through the reasons that this virus could disrupt her life Kovin. Nineteen is likely to have a big impact on the economy on the upcoming presidential election. On Your Life. We want to be your trusted honest. Not Sensationalized source for everything you need to know about corona virus. Starting Monday viral corona virus. Find our show wherever you get your podcast.
Best of 2019: The Boorn Brothers Pt. 1
"Due to the graphic nature of this investigation listener discretion is advised. This episode includes discussions of murder that may be upsetting for some listeners. We advise his extreme caution for listeners. Under thirteen the rocky land of Manchester Vermont Gave Farmers a Never Ending Chore Chore Removing Stones to prepare the fields for tilling ten year old Louis Colvin worked in his grandparents field on the morning of May tenth eighteen eighteen twelve pulling small rocks from the dirt Lewis worked alongside his father Russell and two of his uncles twenty-three-year-old Stephen Event and nineteen year old. Jessie born. The work was exhausting and tedious as the morning wore on tempers flared Russell and Steven Stephen got into a yelling match. Little Lewis watched his father pick up a branch and strike his uncle Stephen but it was a glancing blow and Stephen Still on his feet and now even angrier grabbed a bigger branch. Stephen Swung true knocking Russell to the ground and he tried to get back on his feet but stephen smacked him again. This time. Russell didn't get up scared at the site of his father. On the ground motionless. Lewis ran home a day later. His uncle Stephen demanded a promise from Lewis that he would never tell anyone what he saw and if he broke his word Stephen would kill him. How should be determined person's guilt do we defer to the evidence discovered by police or the verdict reached by a jury and what happens when the evidence and the verdict? Don't line up. Hi I'm Vanessa. Richardson and this is not guilty. Apar- cast original each week. We look at complicated criminal cases that test the limits of innocent until proven guilty this week were examining the eighteen twelve disappearance of Russell Colvin. We'll look at the circumstances that preceded his vanishing rushing and the ghostly vision that sparked a murder investigation seven years later next week will follow the resulting criminal trial and see for ourselves ourselves how the evidence matches up with the verdict at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing breach out on facebook and instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five five star review. Wherever you're listening? It really does help us. We also now have merchandise head to podcast dot com slash merch. For more information tucked in the green mountains of Vermont. The born family lived and farmed in the city of Manchester and Chester Barney. Barnes father was one of the first settlers of the city purchasing his first parcel of land in seventeen sixty six the family early enjoyed socialists team in Manchester as a founding family barney married Elizabeth Lewis in the mid seventeen seventy s together. They had six exch- children though only five lived to adulthood. Their middle child was a daughter named Sally in eighteen. O One at the age of Eighteen Sally Allie married twenty two year old Russell Kovin. The uncouple moved to the cove and family farm in Manchester immediately after their wedding and it wasn't long before their your first child. Louis was born in eighteen. Oh to Russell had been running the family farm for the past year or two ever since since his father abandoned the family. No one knew for certain whether Russell's father was alive or dead but the town took responsibility for Russell's Mother Rosanna Colvin as if she were a widow in early nineteenth century Vermont the welfare of widows and fatherless children fell on the local government airmont they were provided for at taxpayer expense though Russell was an able bodied man when his father left Manchester town officials were concerned about about his ability to manage the family farm. He was in their words weak of mind while no one denied he was a hard worker. They didn't believe he. He had the intelligence or temperament to be the sole source of support for his mother. Manchester town officials fearing the burden of supporting Rosanna would fall. Oh all on them stepped in and seized control of the Kovin family farm in early eighteen. O Two they arranged for a tenant farmer to rent it out and the the future proceeds now went directly to Rosanna without an income Russell. Sally and their growing family were forced to move in with Sally's parents. Russell and Sally went on to have six children over the next decade all supported by her parents by eighteen twelve sally's two younger brothers. Twenty four year old Stephen and nineteen year old. Jessie born grew resentful of this arrangement. The brothers lived in rental rental accommodations and worked as hired help on other people's farms all the while Russell and Sally leeched off of Barney and Elizabeth financially and it wasn't only money. They provided to their daughter and son-in-law Sally Russell often left town leaving Elizabeth to care for the children. Sally would go oh to stay with friends for a few days at a time and Russell would seemingly just wander off on one occasion. Russell left for eight or nine months months to go to Rhode Island. There was speculation. He went there to look for his father if he could prove his father was still alive and that his mother was not a widow. Oh Russell might be able to regain control of the family farm. But if this was his purpose the trip was a disappointment when he arrived back back in Manchester in the spring he was back working at the born family farm. His inlaws still supporting his large family. In April of eighteen twelve stevens resentment toward his sister and brother-in-law bubbled over. He vented to his friend and neighbour William wyman about the burden thirty four year old Russell put on their family. He wondered if his parents were obligated to keep providing for them when Williams said he thought thought Barney had no choice but to support his grandchildren. Stephen became angry. He asked if there was a way to prevent Russell and sally from having more children. And William laughed. No one could stop lawfully married couple from having sex Stevens said that if there was no way to stop them from having more children and he would put an end to their relationship himself. William shook his head as he imagined Stephen trying to tell Russell to stop sleeping with his own wife. It was a few weeks after this conversation that on May tenth eighteen. Twelve Stephen and Jesse born found themselves clearing stones with Russell Kovin and his ten year. Old Son Louis back at the house. Elizabeth born was looking after her grandchildren as sally. Sally was out of town again visiting friends. Russell bragged about the value of the work. He did on the borne family. Farm and Stephen retorted that he was a fool if he thought that Russell shouted at Stephen that he wasn't a fool and Stephen yelled back that Russell was destroying the family's financial angel standing according to Lewis the verbal argument turned physical. His father picked up a branch and swung at Steven Steven then picked picked up a larger branch and knocked Russell down. Lewis ran back home to his grandmother's house. He told her about the fight and that his father was lying motionless. Elizabeth rushed the boy out with an errand that required him to walk into town and back a task that took him several hours. When Lewis returned that evening his father wasn't there he asked where he was one of his uncles replied that Russell had had gone to hell? Five days later on May Fifteenth Twenty nine year old. Sally returned from her visit with friends in that time. No one had heard from Russell. Sally asked Louis where his father was. Louis parroted what his uncle had told him. His father was in hell. Sally was used to both her husband's wanderings and her brothers complaints about Russell. She didn't ask questions. Neighbors noticed that Russell had left but they too were used to Russell leaving town. It wasn't until months passed without word word that some neighbors started asking questions. Most of Russell's trips lasted a week or two. The only exception was his trip to Rhode Island but on that occasion in he had kept in touch with his family the entire time he was gone being gone. This long without any contact was unusual for Russell. The most I ready answer was that Russell had run off like his father and deserted his family but another story emerged in eighteen thirteen after Russell had been gone for nearly a year. Jesse born began telling people that Russell had enlisted in the war of eighteen twelve twelve however the war of eighteen twelve began the month after Russell was last seen. But it's likely nearly a year later. No no one could exactly remember the last time they saw Russell. Town officials were made aware of Russell's disappearance but they weren't troubled by the news instead they were focused on what to do with the Kovin Family Farm Rosanna Russell's mother died in late eighteen thirteen. It was determined the tenant farmer should continue working the land with the rent being paid to Barney born for the support of Russell's Children Russell's absence. This was noted by the church in eighteen. Thirteen and sally was excommunicated for becoming pregnant after her husband left the family in eighteen. MM fifteen sally was pregnant again. Giving birth to her second child outside of marriage now with eight children total selling was was eager to get child support for her newest baby she consulted with an attorney about establishing paternity the attorney explained to her that under Vermont law her. Her husband was the presumed father of her child. However if she could show that Russell was dead and she was a widow she could seek support from the child's lyles actual father? Sally ranted to her family about her meeting. With the attorney not only had rustled deserted her with their six children children he left her in legal limbo unable to seek financial support for the other two children. Stephen assured Sally that he knew Russell was is dead. Surprised she looked Jesse Jesse told her it was true and she could tell the court that she was an unmarried woman but he knew she wouldn't do that. It was only then it dawned on Sally. Her husband didn't leave her. The only way her brothers could know Russell was dead was if they killed him she took Jesse statement as a warning. Swearing in court that Russell was dead would lead to to an investigation. Any investigation would point back. At her brother's Sally decided to protect her brothers. She didn't pursue the paternity turn ity suit later in eighteen. Fifteen stephen was living in a town near Manchester. Called Dorset about eight miles away. May He befriended a couple named Daniel and Eunice Baldwin one afternoon. Stephen did what he liked to do. Best Complain about his sister turn her large family sucking the family dry eunice asked where the father of all these children was. Stephen replied that Russell had run off after after acting strangely for some time he didn't know where Russell ended up but that some people in town thought that Stephen had killed him. This struck the Baldwin's Baldwin's as an odd thing to tell new neighbors. But not as odd as what Stephen said next. He told them that he and his brother Jesse told their nephew nephew that they put Russell where the potatoes wouldn't freeze. The Baldwin's took that to mean a seller. Root cellars were used in Vermont. In the nineteenth century to prevent vegetables from freezing in the harsh winter conditions Steven explained they were just teasing the boy. He said he certainly wouldn't have said something like bad. He actually killed Russell. But the Baldwin's were suspicious. All the same. They weren't the only ones either up until eighteen. Sixteen eighteen. The friends and neighbors of the born family accepted the explanation. That Russel Colvin had deserted his family but the various stories. The born brothers is told to explain. His disappearance started to spread suspicions grew by eighteen nineteen. The town believed thirty one year. Old Stephen and Twenty six year old. Jessie born or cold blooded murderers coming up the brothers face hard questions now back to the story. Thirty one year old. Stephen born moved to Dorset with his family in eighteen seventeen eighteen while he was gone from his hometown of Manchester Vermont. Rumors circulated about his involvement in the disappearance of his brother-in-law Russell Kovin five years prior according to the gossip Stevens. Twenty six year old brother Jesse had been involved as well. Much of the gossip originated originated from a rather ironic source. Stephen himself his old friend William Wyman had told others about Stevens grievances with Russell and how he wanted to stop Russell and sally from having more children his neighbors endorse. It told people that Stephen joked about leaving russell where the potatoes wouldn't freeze frees. His friends. Told how Stevens said he knew. Russell was dead after Sally failed to get child support for her new baby they all ask themselves selves how he could be so sure. Stephen returned to Manchester for visit in March of eighteen nineteen. He was was greeted by friends and neighbors asking direct questions about what happened to Russell while he had answered these questions over the years he was taken aback by the accusatory Satori tone. He was hearing after one person. Openly accused him of killing Russell. Colvin Stephen became enraged. He blamed William Him for spreading. The Gossip Stephen went to Williams House and demanded he stopped telling lies. He then offered up an alibi telling William he was plowing the field of another farm. The Day Russell vanished but much like the borne brothers varying stories about where Russell went when he left Stevens Alibi changed repeatedly. Sometimes he said he was working other farms in Manchester. Sometimes he said he was one town over similarly Jesse told old one person he was out of town when Russell went missing and another that he was working in a shop that day it was hard enough for the brothers to prove their alibis buys from seven years before. But they're changing stories. made it doubly hard for the residents of Manchester to believe anything they said Barney. Arnie and Elizabeth backed their sons up. They said neither of them were at the farm that day as grown men with jobs and homes of their own. It wouldn't be expected they would be doing doing such menial. Work as clearing stones at the family farm the born brothers thought Lewis was the only person who could put them at the scene and he had it just been a boy at the time he may not even remember the day but there was a second witness. The brothers didn't know about the neighbor. Thomas Miss Johnson. Thomas was walking home on the morning of May tenth eighteen twelve. When he heard yelling he he stopped to listen but couldn't make out what was being said? But looking down at the bornes field he could see four figures he recognized. They were brothers. Stephen Stephen and Jesse born Russell Kovin and Russell's ten year old son. Louis Stephen Russell were shouting at each other. When in Thomas Confronted Stephen with his memory of that day Stephen finally admitted he had been there but he insisted he had just stopped by to say hi in passing and though having claimed for years that he didn't know the circumstances leading to Russell's departure he now had a story for Thomas after moving stones all day Russell went home for his evening meal? Sally prepared and served a groundhog that Stephen had sent over to the family. During Lean Times groundhog's were somewhat reluctantly turned to as a source of protein but Russell disgusted by. The dinner yelled to Sally Sally that he was never going to eat in that house again. He stormed out and that was the last time he was seen. Stevens story was quickly. He dismissed by Thomas as a lie. It was well known by that point that Sally wasn't home. When Russell went missing and didn't return for several days? The rumor mill was working overtime with every new story. Stephen and Jesse gave but these accusations against the men remained essentially small town on gossip for the three weeks. Stephen was in Manchester in March of eighteen nineteen. No town. Officials questioned him about the disappearance. He he returned to his farm in New York at the end of the month. And it seemed like that was the end of it until a short time after Stephen left his uncle uncle Amos had a dream. Amos dreamt the ghost of Russell. Colvin came to his bedside declaring that he had been murdered murdered the apparition wanted to show a mess where his body was buried. Amos followed him to an old seller. That had been mostly filled in with dirt. This the ghost said was where they needed to dig for. Russell's remains this four foot by four foot root cellar was all all that remained from a house that Barney born previously owned. It had been torn down in the early eighteen. Hundreds and later the property around the seller was sold sold to Thomas Johnson however the seller seemed significant. Because Stephen had told his nephew that Russell had gone to wear the potatoes does wouldn't freeze. Amos's story quickly circulated throughout Manchester. No one doubted that Amos had this dream. He was a successful full farmer and civic leader with a reputation for honesty officials dismissed the interpretation of the dream as superstitious nonsense. But they couldn't convince is the public of that pressure mounted and the people of Manchester demanded the city. Do something about the murder they believed occurred. Even Yeah No. There was no evidence eventually. The town officials folded in late April. Eighteen nineteen twenty six-year-old year old. Jessie born was arrested pending court of inquiry into the disappearance of Russell Kovin seven years earlier in early nineteenth century Vermont an inquiry function similarly to a police investigation of today. Investigators looked at the evidence. Questioned witnesses and interrogated gated suspects one. Major difference was that portions of the inquiry. Were open to the public heading this investigation was the town clerk. Joel Pratt it and the city's Grand Juror Truman. Hill usually inquiries drew little interest in Manchester. But this case was a spectacle the the small courthouse couldn't fit everyone who wanted a seat at the inquiry they had to move to a local church where proceedings began on April twenty seventh eighteen eighteen nineteen. The first day of the inquiry was an interrogation of Jesse born. No matter what question was put it to him. He denied any involvement in his brother-in-law's disappearance. The next day Amos born lead the crowd to the seller. He saw in his dream. A A man went down to dig through the dirt. They were expecting to find a body. But instead the crowd watched as Amos pulled out a long jack knife a small penknife a code button and other assorted household debris. Joe Pratt took the items to Sally Kovin for identification. Haitian Sally Look them over and claimed one of the knives belonged to Russell. Pratt asked her about the buttons on Russell's coat and she described them as having a flower design in the center when they rubbed the dirt off the button found in the cellar. It was a match Russel's son now. Seventeen year old Louis. Kovin testified at the inquiry as well. He told Pratt and hill that he last saw his father author while they were clearing stones from field contrary to the rumors Lewis said he and his father were alone. Russell then began acting strangely injury and throwing fence rails frightened by his behavior. Lewis ran back to his grandparents home. He never saw his father again. And the inquiry looked at this point as if it was going to close without resolution assigned from a knife and a coat button that may have been Russell's they had had no evidence they couldn't even prove Russell was dead but on May first eighteen nineteen two. Oh separate incidents occurred that renewed confidence in the inquiry. The I was a report from a young boy who was walking his dog along an old road that wit past the born property the dog pod at a rotten stump along the roadside and came out with a bone when the little boy looked wrote he saw multiple bones concealed in the hollow of the stump. The news reached the investigators that evening. The remains of Russell. Oh Kovin may have been found at last. The second break came. When Jesse born received a visit at the jail Truman Crewmen Hill? One of the investigators wanted to put a little pressure on Jesse so he asked the bornes neighbor. Thomas Johnson to go speak to him Thomas. I had previously sworn he witnessed argument between Stephen and Russell on the day of the disappearance. It has never been revealed. What was said during Thomas Visit to the jail but the conversation rattled Jesse immediately after Thomas left Jesse told Hill that he knew what happened to Russell? The month before while Steven was visiting Manchester. He had confided in Jesse that he killed Russell and buried him where no no one would find him. However Jesse had an idea where Stephen might of buried Russell on the mountainside so on Sunday may second searchers searchers were sent in two directions some went to wear Jesse directed them and another group went to the hollowed out stump where the bones had been uncovered the searchers on the mountainside found nothing but those at the stump were able to excavate the bones? They were heavily charred and damaged making most most of them hard to identify but some appeared to be from a human foot. Four doctors examined the bones. Three believed they were human but the fourth doctor wasn't convinced the bones matched due largely to religious beliefs that forbid the desecration of the body after death. It was rare in early nineteenth century for bodies to be donated to medical schools. Many doctors had little hands on experience with human anatomy so it wasn't surprising they couldn't definitively identify human bones. The investigators caught a lucky break though a man living nearby oh by had his leg amputated years. Before in the tradition of the eighteen hundreds. His leg was buried in the cemetery. The man gave gave permission for them to dig it up so they could take a look at his foot bones. Comparing the exhumed foot to the bones from the stump all four doctors. I now agreed. These were not human russell. Coal Wtn's body remained missing. This wasn't the big break. They were hoping for for but they still had Jesse statement that Stephen had confessed to him. Investigators took that statement to Louis Colvin who then admitted to witnessing the fight between his uncle Stephen and his father Stephen had threatened his life if he told anyone so he kept quiet with Jesse and Lewis's statements in hand. The court ordered Stephen Bornes arrest coming up the born brothers. Prepare for trial now back to the story thirty year old. Stephen Bourne born was arrested in his New York home in May eighteen nineteen and taken back to Manchester Vermont. When Stevens wife heard he was being arrested for the murder of Russel Colvin she wept? She asked the men taking her husband away how she was going to support her children and the men dug into their own pockets to leave her with some money. When Stephen arrived in Manchester he was thrown in a cell with his twenty six year? Old Brother in the hopes hopes Jesse would persuade Steven to confess. But the opposite happened after. Speaking with Steven Jesse recanted his own statement about the murder order. Not Long. After Patriarch. Barney born was arrested. Barney had never been implicated in the crime but he provided his sons with an alibi alibi so public opinion was against him. They reasoned that he provided a fake alibi to cover up the murder because he too was involved volved however the magistrate made the unpopular decision to release Barney without charge. There was no evidence he had anything to do with Russell's murder murderer. Elizabeth born had also provided an alibi for her sons. She wasn't arrested but she was excommunicated. Hated from her church. It was clear that in the eyes of the public and the church the born brothers were already guilty but as sure as they were that Russell had been murdered by Steven Jesse born. The legal case had some major holes to support a murder charge. The state had to not only show. Russell was dead. But that Stephen and Jesse intended to kill Russell Lewis said his father struck. Stephen I and Stephen retaliated in the moment comment without a clear intent to kill. There was no evidence. Jesse had participated at all beyond that the searches of the seller the stump and the mountainside had failed to produce the body. They had to consider the possibility that this was a case of manslaughter and cover up rather other than a planned. cold-blooded murder but town officials felt the pressure to deliver the outcome. The public desired a murder trial needing more evidence. They separated the brothers in June eighteen. Nineteen Jesse was moved to a cell with Silas Merrill Silas was in jail either on perjury or forgery charges but more importantly to the investigators. He was a willing jailhouse informant. It only took an hour with Thomas Johnson to get Jessie to break the first time with Silas in the cell with him around the clock Jesse may confess again within a few weeks. Silas reported to the town clerk that Jesse had told him everything. According to Silas Jesse's confession Shen came in the middle of the night after a visit from his father. Earlier in the day Jesse woke silence up and said something had had entered their sell through the window. This thing was sitting on the bed. Silas looked over and saw nothing Jesse shaken by whatever he saw. That Silas didn't began to confess. He reiterated the same story known to everyone in Manchester about how he and his brother. There were clearing rocks with Russell. This time. The story continued past when Little Lewis ran off. Jesse said that Stephen Struck Russell title one more time in the head as Russell lay motionless on the ground Barney born came to the field. Russell was not yet dead. Just unconscious Barney left and returned later asking. If Russell was still alive he was he repeated this one more time and once again the answer was that Russell was alive. Knocked out but alive on this third trip to the field. Barney instructed his sons to carry Russell to the old born home. Where only the foundation remained there? Barney used a knife to cut hot Russell's throat as the sun sank. They dug his grave in the cellar. The reason Russell wasn't found there was because the brothers. I moved him a few years later. Afraid he would be found. They reburied the bones in a nearby barn however the barn caught fire in eighteen eighteen fifteen and the two men once again moved Russell's bones this time they smashed them into small pieces and threw them in the batten kill l.. A. River that ran along the eastern boundary of Manchester. This new statement gave investigators what they needed it. It showed intent to kill Russell after the initial fight. It also explained why they couldn't find the body but this still left them short of a solid solid case Silas Merrill was a known liar. He was facing charges rooted in dishonesty without some type of corroboration any defense hence attorney could tear Silas his statement apart on the stand. Investigators also didn't believe silences story was entirely true though silence put the actual murder on Barney's shoulders. They chose not to rearrest Barney. And if the police didn't believe him fully there was no way a jury would they needed to strengthen their case before it went to the grand jury in September. A confession from Stephen was what they needed so they started applying more pressure all summer. Thirty one year old Stephen Languished in a cramped cell without so much as a window for fresh air or or relief from the heat his hands and feet were shackled. The chain bolted to the ground. If this treatment wasn't enough to wear him down the the court officers periodically reminded him that the prescribed penalty for murder at the time was death by hanging his only. Hope of mercy was confession. If Russell really hit him I it might be considered manslaughter. Not Murder. Perhaps his life would be spared and he wouldn't leave. His young children orphaned finally on August. Twenty seventh eighteen nineteen a month before the grand jury. Stephen told investigators that he wanted to confess. They set him up in the courthouse with a paper and pen. Steven wrote his full full confession for the murder of Russel Kovin. This confession while similar to what Jesse had supposedly told his cellmate had one insignificant difference. Stephen removed both Jessie and Barney from the narrative in his version. He acted completely alone. This confession was not what they wanted. It clear Jesse from wrongdoing and Truman Hill was determined to have both brothers charged. He he believed they were both guilty and didn't want Jesse to get away with murder because of his brothers protection he decided not to show this confession to the grand jury out of fear they would let Jesse go. He had no choice but to rely on the questionable. Silas Merrill Silence told the grand grand jury. The Story Jesse told him which implicated both brothers because the defense does not cross examine witnesses at a grand jury and only need the state side of the case is presented. Silences character was not an issue. The grand jury quickly indicted both men on verger charges. This stephen realized he wouldn't be shown any mercy for having confessed while plea bargaining is irregular aspect of criminal proceedings. Today today these deals were rare in eighteen nineteen whether the brothers pleaded guilty or went to trial the charge and consequence remained remained the same the family hired attorney Richard Skinner who advised the born brothers to plead not guilty. The trial was set for October. twenty-seventh Eighteen nineteen if found not guilty. The brothers would go back to their wives and their farms but if the the jury found them guilty they would be dead in three months. Thanks for listening to not guilty. We'll be back Thursday with the trial of the Bourne. Brothers and the shocking events events that put the entire case in question you can find more episodes of not guilty as well as all podcast other shows on spotify or your favorite favorite podcast directory for more information on the born brothers amongst the many sources we used. We found Gerald W Mcfarland's book the counterfeit man extremely helpful to our research. Several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help us to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network in the meantime based on the evidence presented. Decide for yourself. Did Stephen and Jesse born murder their brother in law Russell Colvin or did Russell Willingly abandoned his family. And will. The jury agree with you. Find out next week not guilty was created did by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Andy Weights with production assistance assistance. By Ron Shapiro and Maggie admire this episode of. Not Guilty was written by Charlie whorl. I'm Vanessa Richardson.
COVID Activity Rehabilitation Program
"Welcome everyone to Mayoclinic Qna Dr Polina Gazelle PGA. Cope nineteen pandemic has progressed. We have learned that the disease can affect multiple systems throughout the body. For some patients who have had cooled in nineteen symptoms can last long after the infectious gone. These long hollers also known as suffering from post Cogan Syndrome may require rehabilitation before they can return to normal activities or work to help these patients. Mayo Clinic has the covert activity rehabilitation program or carp here to discuss this with us. Today is Dr Greg. Finish concern he otherwise goes by Dr. van, and he has a preventive occupational and aerospace specialist at Mayo Clinic. Thanks for being here. Dr, Van Thank you for having me cruciate your retirement. Well, you know we just keep learning more and more about cove Ed and I had heard that there are patients who were having prolonged symptoms from it, but hadn't heard much more than that. So I'm really excited to learn about the program that. Started at mail to like every day we just uncovering more and more about this infection unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it, and and the thing that's the most recently is the fact that patients are still suffering from the symptoms long after the acute in sexual. When did you first become aware of Post Kovin Syndrome? So I had the pleasure of starting to work with patients that had come down with Kobe. Probably back in March April of doesn't. End My initial old goal with helping these patients who has helped helping number turn back to worker back to their their daily function life, and that's something that I'm typically doing as an occupational medicine specialists in right from the get go, we started seeing individuals who were having a greater than expected difficulty returning back to work. Initially, without you know this would just be a fluke perhaps was related to the anxiety that was associated with this very new pandemic that was affecting every part of of life but slowly. But surely, we started seeing more and more patients one after the other having difficulties with these prolonged doves just getting back on their feet. It's still interesting. It seems the virus seems to affect people in so many different ways with different degrees of severity in intensity. What are some of the typical symptoms that you see in these long haulers I would say that the most defining feature that we see for these patients is fatigue and not just any fatigue but a profound teague. So for example, folks will say that they have after take four to five hour nap after doing something simple as you doing the laundry or taking a one block walk. It's just amazing. How wiped out of folks can feel. With just a little bit of. Activity. I would say that the second that we see quite a bit is breath which somebody accents. We doing that Kobe. long-term changes in the lungs like initial diseases. So forth in that can lead to long-term So that POPs up quite frequently. We also see headaches later tonight, I don't do about thirty percent of folks will complete of some sort of neurological long-term complaint where there'd be headache dizziness or weakness, but headaches to be definitely a part of this picture. It had finally we also see some changes in heart rates sensitivity of the hurry. Patients will experience Teke cardio with minimal exertion. September's blood pressure can vary depending on activity as well. And wondering whether the intensity of the post covid. Symptoms is related to the severity of the disease. In other words are these patients that you are seeing only patients who have been very ill hospitalized at perhaps even required a ventilator support or can they be patients who've had mild Kovin symptoms at home? We definitely see a relationship between patients who have had more severe cases such as being the ICU or the hospital. And having a greater likelihood of these long symptoms however. Is Not just those patients, which is, I think it really important to point out. We have seen this occurred folks who have had no problems managing their symptoms at home mortgage a mild symptoms or eating seeing patients actually get worse as time goes on about two weeks after infection. The Justin be a relationship also with age, and that could reflect that perhaps individuals are more sensitive to the election as we get older, which week was we've seen in the news. But, again, anybody can get this the takeaway point for this, we've had individuals who have been great health prior to their infection and they've had also difficulties bouncing there. I'm wondering are there other risk factors? So I have heard that you know covert is known to be? Worse. prognostic for patients who have other medical coomer. Illnesses such as diabetes et Cetera et CETERA. Is there a correlation between post? Covid Syndrome and other. Disease? States coverted as much as we focus on. It doesn't happen in a vacuum I like to remind folks itself. Anything that can impair the immune system. War complicates the ability for the body to recover like diabetes. Hypertension, cardiac disease. Any of those factors can cause your cove induction to be more severe as well as your recovery to be greatly delayed the healthy it can be the better it is for you. Long term of course, regards to the Kobe detection as well as any possibility long-term symptoms. How common is you think? You. Know it's it's a little bit too early to tell it again. This is one thing that something that we were taking day by day at this point, and so I do know that from our previous experiences with SARS outbreak like Middle Eastern, respiratory virus, and SARS. That up to about thirty percent folks are expected to have some sort of long-term symptom with her be in those cases, Disney or headaches or decrease exercise. Right now, we are struggling to get folks just be aware about this condition in. So that's limiting our ability to actually predict how how common this is with Ovid. Unfortunately, there's also a stigma associated with this. You know we've only had as part of our lingo here for about two months in. It's amazing that. Sending a stigma from from patients issues really don't want to. have their employer know that they're struggling long-term have their family know that there have been problems long term and there's a couple of different hypotheses we have about that. But nevertheless a right now, there seems to be more people out there that have these domes that we are whereabout and so as time goes out hopefully, we can get a better idea of how communist is I'm Gonna I would guesstimate it would be a quarter of patients they experienced. That's a significant number it occurred to me while you're talking that perhaps patients don't always know what to report or when they should report it because we know. So little about what is normal the the mentioned that you made stigma is very interesting to me. I have a colleague boasting her husband are physicians here at Mayo and they both had Kovin and they were. She was telling me about getting groceries delivered that that you know they delivery people didn't WanNa come near their home, and so they relieving things out you know in the in the outlaw nurse or other places like that. So I think this fear or even after someone has had cove in recovered from the infection couldn't possibly be infectious any longer it's still affects them in their relationships. That is what policies that somehow if you have these prolong symptoms, you're infectious in could affect the community, which is the case. This is far after the acute infection period. In contagious window I'll tell us a little about carp and how how it works. So the first thing we do with Carb is the most important thing is with the patient and and get to know what their pre functional status was, what their goals are at this point for for getting back to life in back to work. I. Mean isn't pointed to know that carbon not just for folks who are get back to work but everybody who's just trying to get back to their baseline life Highlight that because it's going to be different for everybody is some folks come into this as marathon runners folks this as a commercial airline but some people just WANNA get back to be able to walk the dog around the block and we work with all of those individuals understand what their goals are. At that initial intake, which is about four weeks after the election, we also make sure that nothing else is going on. Medically that could affect recovery again, Kobe doesn't happen in a vacuum in there can be other conditions that. Play into this like or a blood clots and so forth. So we want to make sure that nothing else is there before we start the rehabilitation process. Once that is all done. Then we start with the general idea of strengthening physical therapy. So strengthen the entire body, but also specifically focusing on the muscles that are involved in breathing. As I mentioned earlier, there can be long-term, Disney associated and. Muscles engaged quite weak. You'd after a few days of just rest or being in the bed or nice yield it's a way target the respiratory muscles specifically, the exercise we have program is very monitored as well. We've monitor blood pressure, ouray all socks like that and physical therapy keeps a close eye on the patient as they progress through the exercises. Again what we have seen his. Patients will have rapid onset of Cardia when they start exercising or getting. Blood pressure normally when we have someone that the mantra no pain. No gain. Works, but not necessarily. So with Kobe patients, we want to have a slowing in gradual approach to this in addition to that, we also do the Antler Justin that may be needed like echocardiogram. Alert function testing repeat chest x rays. Until work we also coordinate with any specialties that are needed along the way such as medicine or no medicine infectious disease and help said, this is all of that information for the patient because there's So many moving parts going on, it can be easy to get lost in the in the mixture of all of that and in Thailand, we also give also support to return to work process. Which is where our background medicine did a play lead at I have a whole career over the last decade of helping folks back to work at navigating all of the things that can affect getting back into the workplace whether it be actual medically dish itself for issues at home or issues with the job availability in supervisor's in Belem lays. we're here due to offer as much support as we can and. Then finally, if you know co bid also can cause long-term of domes with depression anxiety. For a lot of different reasons I think we can all understand if there's any. Any of those kinds of difficulties are for a mental health support either through counseling. Or actual psychiatric here interested in what you said about exercising your respiratory muscles because in going to the gym that is something I have never thought of is strengthening my respiratory muscles so. This is truly whole person care not just the physical being you're. Seeking to. Help these patients improve every every aspect of their lives. It sounds like we're definitely going after a multidisciplinary approach in the goal of trying to get to went back to their life it. Yeah. It takes though the whole body pitcher night just trying to get them back to work not just trying to get their heart rate down. It's the the whole today. Dr Van are these patients inpatient. And outpatient program that they come to. It's an outpatient program and It is open to anyone so you don't have to be at employee year at Mayo. As. As long as you are needing assistance, we are here to help you out. The referral process is fairly straightforward if you're feeling when you're having symptoms related to still need some assistance, even if it's just WanNa, talk to you to make sure everything is okay. I recommend that you would speak first with your own personal medical provider. If you both agree, that would be the right thing for you. They can put them a referral into occupational medicine and will be happy to see you what does recovery look like for these patients to know. That yet you expect full recovery's we are constantly looking at the outcomes at this point to see how does going again, this is also new and we are essentially building airplane while flying it at the same time arguments are guided by our previous experiences again with middle, eastern respiratory virus stars, but I can't tell you anecdotally at this point that patients are very much enjoyed the program the are seeing benefit. The are reporting a better endurance with activities degrees Disney. In slowly getting back on their feet, we have had individuals back to work. Through, the program as well, and fortunately, no one has become stuck in this situation which I'm happy to point out. Most patients recovering anywhere from about six to twelve weeks after. The onset of infection I would imagine just that even the Camaraderie of being in knowing that you're in a program being with others who are going through similar experiences as as you are as a patient would be really meaningful as well. Absolutely. I think isolation is something that we evolve dreaded dealt with here over the past year and just having A. Notion that you're not alone in this struggle be very beneficial. Thanks so much for being here Dr Van is really interesting. At no problem thank you so much for having me every shit what a meaningful program it's we focus so much on how do you get someone? How do you know if someone has a cove nineteen to begin with and then how do you take care of them during their illness and so now this transition to whole person care after the infection is a really fascinating. Art thanks to Mayo Clinic Preventative Medicine Specialist Dr Greg Meniscus Orange is the director of the cart program here at Mayo Clinic. I. Hope You learned something today I know that I did and we wish you wonderful day. Mayo Clinic Cuna is a production of the Mayo Clinic. News Network is available wherever you get and subscribe to your favorite podcasts to see a list of all male clinic podcasts visit News Network Dot Mayoclinic Dot Org. Then Click on podcasts we hope you'll offer a review of this and other episodes when the option is available comments and questions can also be sent to Mayo Clinic News Network at Mayo, Dot Edu thanks for listening and be well
Boorn Brothers Pt. 1: The Disappearance of Russell Colvin
"Due to the graphic nature of this investigation listener discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder that may be upsetting for some listeners. We advise his extreme caution for listeners under thirteen. The rocky land of manchester vermont gave farmers a never ending chore chore removing stones to prepare the fields for tilling ten year old louis colvin worked in his grandparents field on the morning of may tenth eighteen eighteen twelve pulling small rocks from the dirt lewis worked alongside his father russell and two of his uncles twenty-three-year-old stephen event and nineteen year old jessie born the work was exhausting and tedious as the morning wore on tempers flared russell and steven stephen got into a yelling match little lewis watched his father pick up a branch and strike his uncle stephen but it was a glancing blow and stephen still on his feet and now even angrier grabbed a bigger branch stephen swung true knocking russell to the ground and he tried to get back on his feet but stephen smacked him again this time russell didn't get up scared at the site of his father on the ground motionless lewis ran home a day later his uncle stephen demanded a promise from lewis that he would never tell anyone what he saw and if he broke his word stephen would kill him how should be determined person's guilt. Do we defer to the evidence discovered by police or the verdict reached by a jury and what happens when the evidence and the verdict don't line up hi. I'm vanessa richardson and this is not guilty apar- cast original each week we look at complicated criminal cases that test the limits of innocent until proven guilty this week were examining the eighteen twelve disappearance of russell colvin. We'll look at the circumstances that preceded his vanishing rushing and the ghostly vision that sparked a murder investigation seven years later next week will follow the resulting criminal trial and see for ourselves ourselves how the evidence matches up with the verdict at podcast. We're grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do what we love. Let us know how we're doing breach out on facebook and instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network and if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us is to leave a five five star review wherever you're listening. It really does help us. We also now have merchandise head to podcast dot com slash merch for more information tucked in the green mountains of vermont. The born family lived and farmed in the city of manchester and chester barney. Barnes father was one of the first settlers of the city purchasing his first parcel of land in seventeen sixty six. The family early enjoyed socialists team in manchester as a founding family. Barney married elizabeth lewis in the mid seventeen seventy s together. They had six exch- children though only five lived to adulthood their middle child was a daughter named sally in eighteen o one at the age of eighteen sally allie married twenty two year old russell kovin the uncouple moved to the cove and family farm in manchester immediately after their wedding and it wasn't long before their our first child louis was born in eighteen. Oh to russell had been running the family farm for the past year or two ever since since his father abandoned the family no one knew for certain whether russell's father was alive or dead but the town took responsibility for russell's mother rosanna colvin as if she were a widow in early nineteenth century vermont the welfare of widows and fatherless children fell on the local government movement they were provided for at taxpayer expense though russell was an able bodied man when his father left manchester town officials were concerned about about his ability to manage the family farm he was in their words weak of mind while no one denied he was a hard worker. They didn't believe he he had the intelligence or temperament to be the sole source of support for his mother manchester town officials fearing the burden of supporting rosanna would fall oh all on them stepped in and seized control of the kovin family farm in early eighteen o two they arranged for a tenant farmer to rent it out and the the future proceeds now went directly to rosanna without an income russell sally and their growing family were forced to move in with sally's parents russell and sally went on to have six children over the next decade all supported by her parents by eighteen twelve sally's two younger brothers twenty four year old stephen and nineteen year old jessie born grew resentful of this arrangement. The brothers lived in rental rental accommodations and worked as hired help on other people's farms all the while russell and sally leeched off of barney and elizabeth financially and it wasn't only money they provided to their daughter and son-in-law sally russell often left town leaving elizabeth to care for the children sally would go oh to stay with friends for a few days at a time and russell would seemingly just wander off on one occasion russell left for eight or nine months months to go to rhode island. There was speculation. He went there to look for his father. If he could prove his father was still alive and that his mother was not a widow. Oh russell might be able to regain control of the family farm but if this was his purpose the trip was a disappointment when he arrived back back in manchester in the spring he was back working at the born family farm. His inlaws still supporting his large family in april of eighteen twelve stevens resentment toward his sister and brother-in-law bubbled over he vented to his friend and neighbour william wyman about the burden thirty four year old russell put on their family. He wondered if his parents were obligated to keep providing for them. When williams said he thought thought barney had no choice but to support his grandchildren stephen became angry he asked if there was a way to prevent russell and sally from having more children and william laughed. No one could stop a lawfully married couple from having sex stevens said that if there was no way to stop them from having more children and he would put an end to their relationship himself. William shook his head as he imagined stephen trying to tell russell to stop sleeping with his own wife. It was a few weeks after this conversation that on may tenth eighteen twelve stephen and jesse born found themselves clearing stones with russell kovin and his ten year old son louis back at the house. Elizabeth born was looking after her grandchildren as sally sally was out of town again visiting friends russell bragged about the value of the work he did on the borne family farm and stephen retorted that he was a fool if he thought that russell shouted at stephen that he wasn't a fool and stephen yelled back that russell was destroying the family's financial angel standing according to lewis the verbal argument turned physical his father picked up a branch and swung at steven steven then picked picked up a larger branch and knocked russell down lewis ran back home to his grandmother's house. He told her about the fight and that his father was lying. Motionless elizabeth rushed the boy out with an errand that required him to walk into town and back a task that took him several hours when lewis returned that evening his father wasn't there. He asked where he was. One of his uncles replied that russell had had gone to hell five days later on may fifteenth twenty nine year old sally returned from her visit with friends in that time no one had heard from russell sally lewis where his father was louis parroted what his uncle had told him his father was in hell. Sally was used to both her husband's wanderings and her brothers complaints about russell. She didn't ask questions. Neighbors noticed that russell had left but they too were used to russell leaving town. It wasn't until months passed without word word that some neighbors started asking questions. Most of russell's trips lasted a week or two. The only exception was his trip to rhode island but on that occasion then he had kept in touch with his family the entire time he was gone being gone. This long without any contact was unusual for russell. The most i ready answer was that russell had run off like his father and deserted his family but another story emerged in eighteen thirteen after russell had been gone for nearly a year jesse born began telling people that russell had enlisted in the war of eighteen twelve twelve however the war of eighteen twelve began the month after russell was last seen but it's likely nearly a year later no no one could exactly remember the last time they saw russell town. Officials were made aware of russell's disappearance but they weren't troubled by the news instead. They were focused on what to do with the kovin family farm. Rosanna russell's mother died in late eighteen thirteen. It was determined the tenant farmer should continue working the land with the rent being paid to barney born for the support of russell's children russell's absence this was noted by the church in eighteen thirteen and sally was excommunicated for becoming pregnant after her husband left the family in eighteen mm fifteen sally was pregnant again giving birth to her second child outside of marriage now with eight children total sally was was eager to get child support for her newest baby. She consulted with an attorney about establishing paternity. The attorney explained to her that under vermont law her her husband was the presumed father of her child however if she could show that russell was dead and she was a widow she could seek support from the child's lyles actual father sally ranted to her family about her meeting with the attorney. Not only had rustled deserted her with their six children children. He left her in legal limbo unable to seek financial support for the other two children. Stephen assured sally that he knew russell was is dead surprised. She looked jesse. Jesse told her it was true and she could tell the court that she was an unmarried woman but he knew she wouldn't do that. It was only then it dawned on sally. Her husband didn't leave her. The only way her brothers could know russell was dead was if they killed him she took jesse statement as a warning swearing in court that russell was dead would lead to to an investigation. Any investigation would point back at her brother's. Sally decided to protect her brothers. She didn't pursue the paternity. Turn ity suit later in eighteen fifteen. Stephen was living in a town near manchester called dorset about eight miles away. May he befriended a couple named daniel and eunice baldwin one afternoon. Stephen did what he liked to do. Best complain about his sister turn her large family sucking the family dry eunice asked where the father of all these children was stephen replied that russell had run off after after acting strangely for some time he didn't know where russell ended up but that some people in town thought that stephen had killed him this struck the baldwin's baldwin's as an odd thing to tell new neighbors but not as odd as what stephen said next. He told them that he and his brother jesse told their nephew nephew that they put russell where the potatoes wouldn't freeze the baldwin's took that to mean a seller root cellars were used in vermont in the nineteenth century to prevent vegetables from freezing in the harsh winter conditions steven explained. They were just teasing the boy. He said he certainly wouldn't have said something like bad. He actually killed russell but the baldwin's were suspicious all the same. They weren't the only ones either up until eighteen sixteen eighteen. The friends and neighbors of the born family accepted the explanation that russel colvin had deserted his family but the various stories the born brothers is told to explain his disappearance started to spread suspicions grew by eighteen nineteen. The town believed thirty one year old stephen and twenty six year old jessie born or cold blooded murderers coming up the brothers face hard questions birthdays anniversaries holidays. These are the important dates. Most people tend to remember but the park has network remembers important dates in true crime history everyday my show today and true crime takes you back to the biggest events in true crime time that happened each day in history whether the crime is infamous or just plain interesting. There's a crime story for every day of the year. September timber third two thousand twelve griselda blanco cocaine godmother was gunned down in columbia october ninth two thousand two serial killer yeah i lean warno declined final meal and was executed november twenty ninth nine thousand nine hundred eighty. One natalie wood drowned on a weekend boat vote trip. Today and true crime is podcast first daily true crime podcast. You no longer have to wait for weeks to get your true crime fix with new episodes assode every day. You'll never run out of true. Crime content again. Crime never takes a day off and now neither does podcast follow today in true crime for free on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts now back to the story thirty one in your old stephen born moved to dorset with his family in eighteen seventeen while he was gone from his hometown of manchester vermont rumors circulated about about his involvement in the disappearance of his brother-in-law russell kovin five years prior according to the gossip stevens twenty six year old brother other jesse had been involved as well much of the gossip originated from a rather ironic source stephen himself his old friend and william wyman had told others about stevens grievances with russell and how he wanted to stop russell and sally from having more children his neighbors endorse it. I told people that stephen joked about leaving russell where the potatoes wouldn't freeze his friends told of how stephen said he knew russell was dead after sally sally failed to get child support for her new baby. They all ask themselves how he could be so sure. Stephen return to manchester for a visit in march of eighteen nineteen. He was greeted by friends and neighbors asking direct questions about what happened to russell wall while he had answered these questions over the years he was taken aback by the accusatory tone he was hearing after one person openly accused him of killing russell. Kovin stephen became enraged. He blamed william for spreading the gossip. Stephen went to williams house and demanded he stop. Stop telling lies. He then offered up an alibi telling william. He was plowing the field of another farm. The day russell vanished but much like the born brothers others burying stories about where russell went when he left stevens alibi changed repeatedly sometimes. He said he was working other farms in manchester sometimes. He said he was one town. Over similarly jesse told one person he was out of town when russell went missing and another that he was working in a shop that day it was hard enough for the brothers to prove their alibis seven years before but they're changing stories made it doubly hard for the residents residents of manchester to believe anything they said barney and elizabeth backed their sons up. They said neither of them were at the farm that day as grown men with jobs and homes of their own it wouldn't be expected. They would be doing such menial work as clearing stones at the family farm. The born brothers thought lewis was the only person who could put them at the scene and he had just been a boy at the time. He may not even remember the day but there was the second witness. The brothers didn't know about the neighbor. Thomas johnson thomas was walking home on the morning of may tenth eighteen twelve when he heard yelling he stopped to listen but couldn't make out what was being said but looking down at the bornes field. They could see four figures he recognized. They were brothers. Stephen and jesse born russell colvin and russell's ten year old son louis louis stephen and russell were shouting at each other. When thomas confronted stephen with his memory of that day stephen finally admitted he had had been there but he insisted he had just stopped by to say hi in passing and though having claimed for years that he didn't know the circumstances leading into russell's departure he now had a story for thomas after moving stones all day russell went home for his evening meal meal sally prepared and served a groundhog that stephen had sent over to the family during lean times groundhog's were somewhat reluctantly turned to as a source of protein but russell disgusted by the dinner yelled to sally that he was never going to eat in that house again. He stormed out and that was the the last time he was seen stevens. Story was quickly dismissed by thomas as a lie. It was well known by that point. That sally wasn't home when russell went missing and didn't return for several days the rumor mill was working overtime with every new story. Stephen and jesse gave but these accusations against the men remained essentially small town gossip for the three weeks. Stephen was in manchester in march of eighteen nineteen gene. No town officials question him about the disappearance. He returned to his farm in new york at the end of the month and it seemed like that was the end of it until a short time after stephen left his uncle amos had a dream amos dreamt the ghost of russell russell colvin came to his bedside declaring that he had been murdered. The apparition wanted to show a mess where his body was buried. Amos must followed him to an old seller that had been mostly filled in with dirt. This the ghost said was where they needed to dig for russell's remains pains this four foot by four foot root cellar was all that remained from a house that barney born previously owned it had been torn down in the early eighteen hundreds and later the property around the seller was sold to thomas johnson however the seller seemed significant because stephen stephen had told his nephew that russell had gone to wear the potatoes wouldn't freeze amos's story quickly circulated throughout manchester. No one doubted that amos had this dream. He was a successful farmer and civic leader with a reputation for honesty officials dismissed the interpretation transportation of the dream as superstitious nonsense but they couldn't convince the public that pressure mounted and the people of manchester demanded handed the city do something about the murder they believed occurred. Even though there was no evidence eventually the town officials folded in late april eighteen nineteen twenty six-year-old jesse born was arrested pending a court of inquiry into the disappearance of russell kovin seven years earlier in early nineteenth century vermont an inquiry function similarly to a police investigation of today investigators looked at the evidence questioned witnesses and interrogated suspects. One major difference was that portions of the inquiry were open to the public click heading. This investigation was the town clerk joel pratt and the city's grand juror truman hill usually inquiries drew little little interest in manchester with this case was a spectacle. The small courthouse couldn't fit everyone who wanted a seat at the inquiry they had to move to a local local church where proceedings began on april twenty seventh eighteen nineteen. The first day of the inquiry was was an interrogation of jesse born no matter what question was put to him. He denied any involvement in his brother-in-law's disappearance. The next stay amos born lead the crowd to the seller he saw in his dream. A man went down to dig through the dirt. They were expecting to find a body but instead the crowd watched as amos pulled out a long jack knife a small penknife a code button and other assorted household debris. Eh joel pride took the items to sally kovin for identification sally look them over and claimed one of the knives belonged to russell pratt asked her about the buttons on russell's coat and she described them as having a flower design in the center when they rubbed the dirt off the button found in the cellar. It was a match russell's son. Now seventeen year old louis kovin testified at the inquiry korea's well he told pratt and hill that he last saw his father while they were clearing stones from a field contrary to the rumours lewis said he and his father were alone russell then began acting strangely and throwing fence rails frightened by his behavior lewis ran back to his grandparents home. He never saw his father again. The inquiry looked at this point as if it was going to close without resolution aside from a knife and a code button that may have been russell's. They had no evidence they couldn't even prove russell was dead but on may first eighteen nineteen two separate incidents occurred that renewed confidence in the inquiry the i was a report report from a young boy who was walking his dog along an old road that went past the born property the dog pod at a rotten stump along the roadside god and came out with a bone when the little boy looked he saw multiple bones concealed in the hollow of the stump. The the news reached the investigators that evening the remains of russell coleman may have been found at last the second break came when jesse sea-borne received a visit at the jail truman hill. One of the investigators wanted to put a little pressure on jesse so he asked burn's neighbour thomas johnson to go speak to him. Thomas had previously sworn he witnessed an argument between stephen and russell on the day of the disappearance. It has never been revealed what was said during thomas's visit to the jail but the conversation rattled jesse immediately really after thomas left jesse told hill that he knew what happened to russell the month before while steven was visiting manchester he had confided lighted and jesse that he killed russell and buried him where no one would find him. However jesse had an idea where stephen might have buried russell on the mountainside so on sunday may second searchers were sent in two directions somewhat to wear jesse directed them and another group group went to the hollowed out stump where the bones had been uncovered the searchers on the mountainside nothing but those at the stump were able to excavate abate the bones they were heavily charred and damaged making most of them hard to identify but some appeared to be from a human foot four doctors examined the bones three believed they were human but the fourth doctor wasn't convinced the bones matched due largely salita religious beliefs that forbid the desecration of the body after death. It was rare in early nineteenth century for bodies to be donated to medical schools. Many doctors had little hands on experience with human anatomy so it wasn't surprising they couldn't definitively identify human bones now. The investigators caught a lucky break. Though a man living nearby had his leg amputated years before in the tradition of the eighteen hundreds his leg was buried in the cemetery the man gave permission for them to dig it up so they could take a look at his foot bones comparing during the exhumed foot to the bones from the stump. All four doctors now agreed. These were not human russell. Co wtn's is body remained missing. This wasn't the big break they were hoping for but they still had jesse statement achievement that stephen had confessed to him. Investigators took that statement to louis kovin who then admitted to witnessing the fight between his uncle stephen an and his father stephen had threatened his life if he told anyone so he kept quiet with jesse and lewis's statements in hand the court ordered steven barnes arrest coming up the born brothers prepare for trial now back to the story thirty year old stephen bourne was arrested in his new york home in may eighteen nineteen and taken back to manchester vermont when stevens wife heard he was being arrested for the murder of russel colvin she wept. She asked the men taking her husband away day how she was going to support her children and the men dug into their own pockets to leave her with some money. When stephen arrived in manchester her he was thrown in a cell with his twenty six year old brother in the hopes jesse would persuade steven to confess but the opposite happened after after speaking with steven jesse recanted his own statement about the murder not long after patriarch barney born was arrested barney any had never been implicated in the crime but he provided his sons with an alibi so public opinion was against him. They reason that he provided a fake aac alibi to cover up the murder because he too was involved. However the magistrate made the unpopular decision to release barney without thou- charge there was no evidence he had anything to do with russell's murder. Elizabeth born had also provided an alibi for her sons. She wasn't arrested but she was excommunicated from her church. It was clear that in the eyes of the public and the church the born brothers were already guilty but as sure as they were that russell had been murdered by stephen and jesse born the legal case had some major holes calls to support a murder charge. The state had to not only show that russell was dead but that steven jesse intended to kill russell lewis set his father struck stephen. I and stephen retaliated in the moment without a clear intent to kill there was no evidence jesse had participated hated at all beyond that the searches of the seller the stump and the mountainside had failed to produce the body they had to consider the possibility possibility that this was a case of manslaughter and a cover up rather than a planned cold-blooded murder but town officials felt the pressure to deliver the outcome. The public desired a murder trial needing more evidence. They separated the brothers in june. Eighteen nineteen jesse was moved to a cell with silas. Merrill silas was in jail either on perjury or forgery charges but more importantly lead the investigators. He was a willing jailhouse informant. It only took an hour with thomas johnson to get jessie to break the first time with silence in and the cell with him around the clock. Jesse may confess again within a few weeks. Silence reported to the town clerk that jesse had told him everything. According to silas jesse's confession came in the middle of the night after a visit from his father earlier in the day jesse woke silas up and said something had entered their sell through the window. This thing was sitting on the bed. Silas looked over and saw nothing jesse shaken by whatever he saw that silas didn't began to confess he reiterated rated the same story known to everyone in manchester about how he and his brother were clearing rocks with russell this time the story continued past when in little lewis ran off jesse said that stephen struck russell one more time in the head as russell lay motionless on the ground and barney born came to the field russell was not yet dead just unconscious barney left and returned later asking if russell was still still alive he was he repeated this one more time and once again the answer was that russell was alive knocked out out but alive on this third trip to the field barney instructed his sons to carry russell to the old born home where only the foundation remained leaned. Their barney used a knife to cut russell's throat as the sun sank. They dug his grave in the cellar color. The reason russell wasn't found there was because the brothers moved him a few years later afraid he would be found. They reburied. The bones owns the nearby barn. However the barn caught fire in eighteen fifteen and the two men once again moved russell's bones this time they smashed them into small pieces and threw them in the batten. Kill a river that ran along the eastern boundary of manchester. This new statement gave investigators what they needed. It showed intent to kill russell. After the initial fight it also explained why they couldn't find the body but this still left them short of a solid case silas merrill was a known liar. He was facing charges rooted wooded dishonesty without some type of corroboration. Any defense attorney could tear silas. His statement apart on the stand. Investigators also didn't believe silas. His story was entirely true. Though silence put the actual murder on barney's shoulders they chose not to rearrest barney and if the police police didn't believe him fully though was no way a jury would they needed to strengthen their case before it went to the grand jury in september a confession fashion from stephen was what they needed so they started applying more pressure all summer thirty one year old stephen and languished in a cramped cell without so much as a window for fresh air or relief from the heat. His hands and feet were shackled. The chain bolted wanted to the ground. If this treatment wasn't enough to wear him down the court officers periodically reminded him that the prescribed penalty for murder at the time time was death by hanging his only hope of mercy was a confession. If russell really hit him i it might be considered. Manslaughter plotter not murder perhaps his life would be spared and he wouldn't leave his young children orphaned finally on august twenty seventh eighteen eighteen nineteen a month before the grand jury stephen told investigators that he wanted to confess they set him up in the courthouse where the paper bertrand pen steven wrote his full confession for the murder of russel kovin this confession while similar to what jesse had supposedly told his cellmate had one significant difference stephen removed both jessie and barney from the narrative in his version. He acted completely alone. This confession was not what they wanted. It clear jesse from wrongdoing and truman hill was determined to have both brothers charged. He believed they were both guilty and didn't want jesse to get away with murder. Because of his brothers protection -tection he decided not to show this confession to the grand jury out of fear they would let jesse go. He had no choice but to rely lie on the questionable silas merrill silence told the grand jury the story jesse told him which implicated both brothers because because the defense does not cross examine witnesses at a grand jury and only the state side of the case is presented silas character was not an issue. The grand jury quickly indicted both men on verger charges. Stephen realized he wouldn't be shown any mercy for having confessed infest while plea bargaining is irregular aspect of criminal proceedings today. These deals were rare in eighteen nineteen. Whether the brothers pleaded needed guilty or went to trial the charge and consequence remained the same the family hired attorney richard skinner who advised the borne brothers to plead not guilty. The trial was set for october twenty seventh eighteen nineteen. If found not guilty the brothers others would go back to their wives and their farms but if the jury found them guilty they would be dead in three months. Thanks for listening to not guilty. We'll be back thursday with the trial of the born brothers and the shocking events that put the entire case in question you can find more episodes of not guilty as well as all of our casts other shows on spotify or your favorite podcast directory for more information on the born brothers amongst the many sources we used used we found gerald w mcfarland's book the counterfeit man extremely helpful to our research several of you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show so the best way to help us is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast network work in the meantime based on the evidence presented decide for yourself did stephen and jesse born murder their brother-in-law russell muscle calvin or did russell willingly abandoned his family and will the jury agree with you find out next week. Not guilty was created by max. Cutler is a production of cutler media and is part of the podcast network. It is produced used by maxon ron cutler sound design by andy weights with production assistance by ron shapiro and maggie admire. This episode of not guilty was written by charlie charlie whorl. I'm vanessa richardson. Be sure to check out my podcast today. In true crime every day it covers a different true crime event from history follow today in true crime on spotify and anywhere you listen to podcasts.
AP Headline News Feb 04 2019 19:00 (EST)
"Space some regions are vast empty other areas we call closets. Fortunately, Kevin from the container store has answers. Right. Kevin. What gives you the power over space? I'd say alpha, customizable, closets with free, design and Elvis adjustable shelving and drawers, I can create space in any size closet. Kevin master of space and closets or just Kevin plus right now, save thirty percent on elfin installation and earn up to five hundred dollars credit through February tenth at the container store where space comes from who wears music coming from the KOMO Brexit may not be certain. But one thing is clear. You business could face serious challenges enterprise. Orlands wind range of supports will help you plan innovate compete on diversifying speak to your enterprise Arslan development adviser or visit prepare for breakfast Dodi an initiative of the government of Ireland. AP radio news. I'm Tim Maguire Virginia governor Ralph Northam fighting for his political life met today with his cabinet as he tries to find a way to not be forced to resign following last. Friday's publication of a racist photo on his page in a medical yearbook. The tenant governor just in Fairfax who would succeed Northam. Should he leave office tells WW BT how many -sition obviously, I ask the governor? And a someone who would have to have an office event that we were to resign. So I have to be very circumspect think about people to come with Virginia. Since of crisis deepened today as Fairfax denied and uncorroborated allegation of sexual misconduct. First reported by a conservative website told reporters that the two thousand four encounter with a woman was consensual and he called the accusation a political smear as a congressional conference committee continues its work on funding border security. President Trump is ready to deliver tomorrow night's state of the union address. AP's GIO Kovin reports truck will be facing a democratic majority in the house for this. His second such address very tense situation surrounding this speech. Nonetheless, our told by White House officials that the president in the speech is going to attempt to strike a unifying bipartisan optimistic tone president. Is nominating. A Washington veteran with lobbying ties to energy companies to head the interior department. David bird hearts been leading interiors since Ryan Zinke resigned in December amid ethics investigations he was Zeki deputy before then and President Trump says bernards done a fantastic job from the day. He arrived Bernhardt also was a lawyer and lobbyist for oil and gas companies and other interests with regulatory matters before the department while Republicans say that experience makes him an informed. Regulator Democrats in environmental groups say it leaves him foldable to conflicts of interest saga megani at the White House. This is AP radio news. News. A man is accused of faking to kill himself only to open fire on Clermont county, Ohio deputies seeking to help him killing one wounding another in this from W C P O prosecutor Darren Miller tells a judge this is. In this case, you Wade Edward win is being held under ten million dollars bond. Thirty say detective Bill brewer died from his wounds, the other deputy Nick rose was shot in the ankle. Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort has a new sentencing data federal judge in Washington setting a March thirteenth sentencing for Manafort on two felony charges stemming from witness tampering and crimes related to his Ukrainian political work. If aces up to five years in prison on each charge. Plus there's a possibility of a decade in prison in a separate federal case in Virginia where he was convicted of filing false tax returns concealing foreign Bank accounts in Bank fraud. I'm Tim Maguire AP radio news space, some regions of fast and empty other areas. We call closets. Fortunately, Kevin from the container store has answers. Right. Kevin. What gives you the power over space? I'd say alpha, customizable, closets with free, design and Elvis adjustable shelving. Drawers, I can create space in any size closet. Kevin master of space and closets or just Kevin. Plus right now, save thirty percent on elfin installation and earn up to five hundred dollars in credit through February tenth at the container store where space comes from that use it coming from space. Some regions are vast and empty other areas. We call closets. Fortunately, Kevin from the container store has answers. Right. Kevin. What gives you the power over space? I'd say alpha, customizable, closets with free, design and Elvis adjustable shelving and drawers, I can create space in any size closet. Kevin master of space and closets or just Kevin plus right now save thirty percent on elfin installation and earn up to five hundred dollars in credit through February tenth at the container store where space comes from. Where's that music coming from?
0174 | Living Life by Design After COVID
"So we take that same. Approach the human center design process and we just pointed at you so instead of designing a whole bunch of people who might be using this one device. You're the only person who's at the center of your life. Now you have. Other ancillary people Loved ones and family members and whatever but ultimately were designing for you. Because we're trying to make your corliss life experience aligned who you are as much as possible. You're listening to episode one. Seventy four of the building psychological strength. Podcast where we uncover the information tools and techniques to turn our mind into our most valuable asset the courage to face ears with persistence. Being able to be present enough in this moment to choose my response. Thoughtfully we have the strength to bend to life stressors to bend to adversity without snapping without breaking there are only six things that contribute to our quality of life and they are all experiences every moment. We are deciding. We want to be and how we want to live our lives noticing what your brain is dealing and then being able to make choices mobilized the things that we know lift us up. Fear is not logical. It's primal. Hey friends. Welcome back to the building psychological strength. Podcast my name is April Cypher. And I'm your host this week. I am so excited about our episode. I am so excited because we are diving into one of the same bodies of work that we do within peak mind that I am most passionate about specifically this week's episode is actually the audio from a workshop that we have been doing inside the peak. Mind starter pack. These are live online workshops that we've been doing twice a week with the folks that have signed up for the starter pack. So if you're in there you actually have access to this whole replay in the video of it if you're not in there get your buns in there because we're going to be taking these down soon so if you want to see the whole video of this and get it more in an interactive way. Be Sure to jump in there and get that anyway. This week. We're going to be talking about life design. Which is the domain. I'm so passionate about and I want you to think about that from the context of the situation that we're in right now. Many of us are starting to contemplate. What life will look like after covid? What will it look like? How similar will it be to our old life? And what will the new normal look like? And what's interesting about this is. This is another one of those times of great upheaval right. We experienced at the beginning of covid where our life was turned upside down seemingly in an instant and we all began working and living and doing all a shopping and all of these things in a much different way than we were used to. That's about to happen again. Were about to go back to something that resembles our normal lives and that upheaval is going to happen again. We'RE GONNA lose our mooring. We're GonNa Wade into uncharted territory. And try to rebuild a life after going through the experience that we've all been through and I don't want you to do that without taking advantage of the true opportunity that it is any time we go through a big upheaval like this a big shift. You have the opportunity to do things differently than you did. In the past you the opportunity to take a critical look at your life and decide whether you want the Post Cova part of your life to look exactly like it did pre code are there aspects of this quarantine time that you learned from in one way or the other things you WanNa keep things you definitely want to change aspects of your prior life. That don't suit you anymore. This is the time my friends. This is the time to ask those questions and to be in the driver's seat and design a new normal rather than having your new normal handed to you by default and designed by other people. You are at the center of your life. You're only getting one if you've listened to me for any amount of time you know. I preach about this all the time. We are all dealing with a limit in the amount of time that we have here. We are all on this destination. Last journey like it is going to end. That is the one certainty that we all have. And you always it to yourself to spend your time doing the things in with the people that are aligned to who you really are who you authentically are not who we try to pretend to be when we're trying to play by the rules who you actually are. You owe it to yourself to live life in alignment with that person. And that's why in one of these workshops. We spent an hour going through a workbook. An exercise that will help you. Think about your next steps from the lens of life design and what your values are so. I encourage you to approach this episode as a working session. I encourage you to go to this. Week's show notes page. The link is in the description of this episode. Such a scroll down and click on the link download the workbook. That's available for this week's episode and make sure that you have that in front of you as you go through as you listen to this episode. I don't want you to lose the opportunity to design the next chapter of your life. In a way that was intentional. In a way that was aligned and in a way that takes into account your unique value system and how you want your days to look because ultimately and this is really what does fuel me with a lot of the work I do and also personally with a lot of the decisions I make in my own life ultimately at the end of our lives. We're all going to look back and we're going to take stock about how we lived. What we didn't didn't do things that we are proud of and the things that we regret and one of my biggest goals is to minimize that column of regrets as much as possible and there's actually a blog post. I've talked about it before but I'm GonNa mention it again now. By a woman named Ronnie Wear and the blog post is titled. The regrets of the dying. She was a nurse who worked with people at the end of their life and she talked to them about the things they regretted and they all regretted the same things. They regretted not allowing themselves. Be Happy and not living as the person they authentically were. They regretted the things that they didn't do. They did not regret the things that they did imperfectly. They regret not living their life by design. They regret living it by default. You have that choice right now. You have the choice to live this next chapter of your life by design and I want to help you do that. So this episode. Ill notice the audio is a little bit different but it is the audio from our recent workshop re purposed for this podcast episode to get it out to a wider audience. Make sure you download the workbook. Go through this. Spend some time with it. We're talking about your life here. It's worth it and hit me up on itunes. Let me know what you think of this episode. Share it with other people who might be in a position that they want to have some of these intentional decisions that they wanna make them differently. Going forward friends. This is so critical. This is your life you're talking about. Live it accordingly. Take it seriously. Time is the most non renewable resource on the planet. I hope you spend the next chapter of your time. Living by design all right. Let's roll that audio and as we're waiting for people to get that downloaded. I want to go over something a little bit like just really quickly so that we're all kinda starting from like a good a good foundation. Life Design as an approach is a thing that is being say invented right now. I don't want to say like we made it up. Because we didn't there's other people who are sort of dabbling in it and there's different flavors of it. The flavor that we tend to take a in our work is to use the Human Center Design Process. Which is the process that is used to create every product? That you love you get to know. The people who are at the center of the thing you're designing you learn their strengths and their weaknesses in their barriers. And what they're good at and what they're trying to accomplish by using whatever product or service it s and then you design around that so this is why there are certain products that tend to be very very sticky for certain people. I always pick on the incident pot because he moms in. The instant pot are like like one in the same. It's because they were the people who the inventors of the instant had in mind when they made that product other people sort of ancillary like it. But you talk to that group of people and they will blog about it where t shirts with instant thoughts on them because they love it so much because it was designed specifically for them. I'm one of them. So we take that same approach to human center design process and we just pointed at you so instead of designing a whole bunch of people who might be using this one device. You're the only person who's at the center of your life. Now you have. Other ancillary people loved ones and family members and whatever but ultimately we're designing for you because we're trying to make your whole life experience aligned to who you are as much as possible and we let you throw in what's awesome about what we're doing peak is at were expertly trained in the field of psychology so we layer that in as well so there's a lot of psych aspects that you'll see in the sort of scratch the surface stuff that we're going to do today. It goes much deeper than that in a lot of the other work that we do. But that layer of psychology is critical. I believe to this process because lots of times. We're talking about behavior change or we're talking about doing things that are not easy to do like you may find out. Even today you may find out man. There's a boundary that needs to be set setting that boundary isn't as simple as a shoot. I just didn't know wow that I needed to have that really tough our station with that person. I guess I'll go do it now. There tends to be more to it than that in the realm of all the stuff that we've been talking about on these workshops we have beliefs about ourselves and just things that were overcoming fears and anxiety all of that that gets wrapped up in this process so in my opinion. Maybe I'm just vein which maybe I am but I think our version of life designers like better than anybody else's because we're combining those two really powerful feel on along with some of the fun experiential components of the field of design thinking so we're taking the best of the stuff that we can find from the designers out there and putting it together with psychology. And that's what you get with like design what we're GonNa be going through today. I mentioned it's kind of scratching the surface. We're going to be going like basically skipping a lot of the initial part that we would normally do so. Normally the get to know you arch is very in depth. The deeper we go. And the more connections we make between the pieces that we uncover so connections between your values in your strengths or connections between your weaknesses. And what you want. You know how you WANNA show up in the world when you're at your best. All of those pieces are really important. But we just I mean we just don't have the with to go through that in any amount of time that we would have on these calls so we're GonNa just scratched the surface in US. Something that we've been talking about throughout these workshops and that is our personal values so we're gonNA start with. There's a lot of aspects that we like to. I uncover and get to know when we do a life design workshop or body of work with somebody. The values always a really key aspect of this so in our last workshop we talked about doing a values card sort and I mentioned on this week's email and in the announcement that I sent out to. If you have time do that values card sort and get down to the redefine values that are going to be the ones that are most important to you as you move forward into this next chapter hosts co bid or sort of the transition into what our next chapter of life is. GonNa look like if you've had a chance to do that. Call that out if you have not had a chance to do that. That's okay What I would say is you're unlikely to get to end final results today. In fact there's rarely ever an end final result a process like this more. So what we're doing is we're teaching you a way to sort of crystallized fog. What we're trying to do is teach you away to pull out the important components of something. That's very complicated. And Boil it down to something that you can actually get your hands around and try and then you learn from that and you iterating kind of move through Different permutations of things that you're trying until it feels better and better and better is like the IPHONE Iphone four came out in five than five s than six than whatever now Thousand or something. Each time it gets veteran veteran. There's not an end to it. But what they're doing saying okay. Now we've thrown this new version out with those people who got to know what they think of it now. How's it doing okay? Great tweet tweet tweet tweet. And that's the goal of this process so if you have your values great get those out if you don't that's fine too just go through this in the best way that you can. We're just gonNA like about what comes to the top of your mind And use those values but just know like this is the process that we're teaching you for today. You can always go back and dig it back up and go through it again. Whenever and that's the case for you know maybe someday you're going through a job change and you. WanNa dig this. Pdf back out because it's helpful to think about what your old job versus your new job. Be a whole goal is like I'm going through a transition and I wanNA make sure that at the end of that transition. I'm really aligned to my values. Does that all make sense. Yeah I WANNA JUMP IN HERE. Rely on the people who maybe didn't do the card sort a couple of minutes to come up with the values now in my experience most people aren't able to rattle them off unless they've actually done some work to clarify your values so the card sort is a fun way to do that. You can always go back to it but if you haven't for today's purposes I'm going to ask you to think about a couple of things. One value is a goal so a goal is something that you can check off the list like. I'm I want to run a half marathon. That's goal the value. That's underneath that value is more. Like you were guidepost you can think about it almost like values are the directions north. South East and West and goals are cities along the way so if I say I WANNA go on vacation value might be I WANNA west goal would be. I WANNA get to California. So the reason why it's so important to have values because regardless of what goal were working regardless of what our circumstances our values are always available to us. I can always enact by values in some way so think of your values as like the way you would want people to describe you. It's your eightieth Earth Day. People are cheers in you saying everything that they love about you. What words do they use to describe you carrying adventurous kind compassionate intelligent powerful failing oriented those kinds of things and for today? Just go with a couple that Bob. Lots than top them. That's really great. And as you're thinking of those if you're thinking of them and you're reading them down or you have them from the card sort over on this first sheet of the download. This is what we're going to just start with them so values one through five. I gave you five spaces intentionally because the goal here is not too I mean. When I'm a big proponent of Getting really really specific and also Being Really Ruthless. About what makes that list because when everything's important nothing's important it's like if you liked the whole neighborhood on fire the fire department's like I don't know where to go first. Whatever you I guess we'll put your fire out. I with no regard for like maybe there were other houses at probably needed attention before they did. So start right of start by writing those values in each of these boxes. And I'll talk about some things that came up for me now for me what I've been thinking about throughout this specific process is I'm almost carving carving out this time period as like its own separate little thing when we do more broad life design work you definitely want to think about things on a broader scale and you totally that here as well for me personally when I feel like I'm creating right now. What I need is sort of an anchor as I'm going through this process so I've written down things like the feeling of like balance in white space in my day so I'm looking for things to be more unlinking for myself and like the experience that I'm having to be more balanced. Achievement is something that I wrote down. Romantic connection is something that I wrote down also being present and at ease. So they're not really like to Ashley's point you can't really check and say okay. I'm at ease goal. She wherever way of being that I'm going after and this romantic connection is more of a way of being. I tend to just share personal experience on these. Like when you're with your kids. Twenty four seven in their home all the time. It's really hard to like. Have an adult sort of romantic relationship. Even if you're doing great is not the same when you get like dedicated time. So that's something that I'm looking at as we move through this so for right those values down and next to it income out what it looks and feels like when you are living in alignment with that value lake and this can even just be jotting down a couple of adjectives or a phrase or maybe it's like an increment of time. Something like that that lets you know like guess like yes so for me. I'll give an example again like my value. Wanting to live sort of in the present I know living in alignment with that. When I'm not sitting in thinking about my to do list constantly. I'm not like running over what needs to be done. And what deadlines I have. So that's kind of an indicator not either M or. I'm not living alignment. So I can share working with Values I did some values clarification work at the in place of New Year's resolutions this sort of intentions for the year and courageous authentic connected and engaged. So I wanna put those until like. How do I know Authentic for me is saying I actually think being honest and that also includes being vulnerable. Not just being in the expert role a very comfortable and but on not bleeds over into connected and the ways embody that are making time for my partner in for friends within that trying to be more thoughtful Like with actions at actual physical gestures that let people know I care about only something silly of the. I'm about a sponge exploiting sponge freedom love and it costs like five box set onto my mom. So that's where like that was a behavioral that goals with this connected piece. Sangita gave a great example. Eating healthy exercise. Drinking Water are like the habits or the behaviors that I'm building toward my more physical health value or the value of being like living. Think like sometimes people say like it's a Like an advert. Sorta thing at an L. Y. living helpfully or whatever. That's the word perfect so just jot a few things down on that page. I'm GonNa keep going just in the interest of like getting through at least one version of this or one kind of pass through it But just know. Obviously this is here. This replaying will be up. You can come back to it and go through it as many times as you need to go through it. Once you got those five values written down we are going to go through and pick like a couple areas of your life now when we think about your the entirety of your life. It's made up of a lot of different things. And this is where this gets very individualized like what I choose to focus on is not going to be the same as what you choose to focus on so I would urge you to just gravitate toward the area on this page. So there's twelve of them. Self Body love spirituality career money time etcetera etcetera gravitate towards the ones that feel like. You need it right now. There's probably ones that don't feel like they're as big of a deal right now but there might be a couple that feel like you need it more So I would gravitate toward those. Just pick to so just put a star next to or circle or just write down. What however you're doing this right down to that you are most interested in just having in mind because I feel like it's too difficult at least for me. I'm kind of a systematic person. It's too hard for me to say okay being present or I'm GonNa live more mindfully right ready. Does that mean in the context of myself like when I think about myself? That's a totally different set of things that I would do. Then if it was what does it mean in the context of my money. How I'm spending it totally different set of things. How does it? What does it mean in my relationship like my romantic relationship? Totally different set of things so for me. It's helpful to know like two things. I what are the values? Were working with one of the areas of your life that were like going to focus on and again. That doesn't mean that you can't come back through this and and do it again. But it's more like have them in mind right now. The ones that seem like they're the house that's on fire. You know the most. I was just thinking no April I love about this is it's more of a process than a liquor prescription right happy. Go do this. One specific thing. It's no here's the framework and it's back to that what you saying like rooted in psychology swimming. Look at behavior. Change where people struggle. There's a lot of places people struggle one is when we try to do too much against specific you're GONNA fail may not New Year's resolutions. I'm going to get healthy this year. And by the end of January most people have abandoned it hone in we get a really clear plan of action. A you'll be like to talk about. How rates are very late goal directed we give them that all. They're gonNA work for us not at us. Oh like this values within which what domain one awesome because for me again like I need We've talked before in the realm of like emotions in just Emotions wrapped up with sort of repetitive. Thoughts that we have the pot of paint just gets sludgy all all the read all the yellow all the green. It's all near it's mixed up and it's like one way you can do with this what I need when I'm in that situation or any situation where I feel like this could be better like I feel like I could be like I optimize this a little bit better. I need something that helps me. Tease apart those pieces and just simplifies it or me. Note right now all you have to think about is this thing So that's why I like going through. These more specific frameworks not necessarily go try. This specific behavior are so hopefully we've got a couple of areas picked out flipped to this next page. I want you to just pick one to start with the you know. We're going to go through both among but just pick one to start with. I want you to start thinking about that area crossed with the set of values that you came up with so right whenever values you came up with on that first page. Just jot them down again here those five values and I want you to rate yourself in this area so I'm GonNa go with like my value of being present and I'm GonNa say it's in the realm of with my family. I want you to rate yourself on a one to five scale. How much were you saw me? In my case how much was leaving mindfully? How much was living in the present moment before? Covid ONE TO FIVE. How much was I doing that? During one to five. So just give yourself like a before and during don't tell don't worry about afterward we'll get there but for right now. What we're looking for is think back to your sort of old life because when I'm asking you to do this. Process is question everything there might be things about your life that were optimized in great but there might be things that weren't working and I mentioned in the email being transitions and like big movements are great times to make changes. Because I'M GONNA tie back to some stuff we've talked about before. So much of our behaviors involuntary it runs off of just situational in Personal Hughes. Social CUES IT. We chain behavior together. So yeah I always like him. I always take my birth control pill and then I lost my teeth and then brush my teeth. I wash my face and then went over all jeans together. Like one thing used the next thing that when we make a big upheaval change. A lot of those cues kinda apart so for intentional about it. It's a great opportunity to save weight before I cement new cues that lead me down some new involuntary path that might not be. I WANNA be on. Hang on let me see if I can set some up. That might be ones that help. Just adjust me in the direction that I want to go so I love times like this even though they feel like a big upheaval to people. They're great because you sort of it. Feels like enough people because you is all of those sort of Moorings like all of those sort of stable anchor points but that means you plant new ones so I love this for behavior. Change so rate yourself before and then during this quarantine period how you aligned whatever area of your life you just chosen how you in. Each of those values to that area of your life and some of them may be more relevant than others like romantic relationships in the context. I'm thinking of my kids mostly when I think about family. I mean maybe it's related but maybe it's not as perfectly so and just kinda go with the initial like rating comes to mind and too few guys at any point in time of questions throwing the check because I can see you and then we're going to transfer those down onto this grid so if I rated up above if I said how mindfully was I living before Kobe with my family I would have rated myself at probably to just to be honest during how mindful have been with my kids. It's like a four slash five just by nature of what has happened in the situation. I'm way more present with my kids mostly because I haven't been working as much that has its own set of issues. But like I haven't had looming deadlines as much so I've been able to just be there with them and I've noticed. Those interactions are very different. That means I want you to type before before I'm GonNa say I was present at about a two during Kovin. It's like a four or a five so I'm definitely moved. Does this grid makes sense to people. Just give me a yes or asked me a question. If it doesn't so just kind of like goal the ones how you rated yourself before. Do that column in. Just put him in there. Some of might be stacked up on top of each other. That's okay raise yourself before. Put Him on that. Grid Rachel off after and put him on that grid. Now I want you to draw a line from before to after and what this is going to do is help you. Sort of visually see shifts in how things have moved before or before enduring this quarantine period so again before. How present are mindful? Was I when I was with my kids honestly not very during extremely so because everything else has been wiped away and so you'll notice that before and after some things might not have shifted at all. Maybe this before during some things might not have shifted much at all. That's okay. Something's might have shifted quite a bit so just draw all those arrows. Once you've got everything Graded out sticking with that same area of your life. Now I want you to use and again this opportunity that we've been in. It's been enough of an upheaval to most of us. That some main scaffolding framework the main pieces of like logistics of our lives have been completely changed and that means some natural changes have likely led to the shift that you're looking at on the previous page. So when she did ask yourself a few questions. So if you focus on the values in this is on the next page of your download focus on values that were aligned on both Before and during values that are on the bottom half of that graph on page ones that were at the bottom before ones at the bottom. Jury talk a little bit about how that alignment felt like. How did it feel so for me? Something that was in alignment oath before and during was achievement. The way in which I went about that was different in that kind of relates to some of these other pieces that I'm working on but for me that felt like like for me. It felt like it was something that at least grounded me in normal just it felt like like psychologically good like we've talked about perma factors and how achievement is just one of those things that contributes to being. That definitely was the case. I took on some different projects during Kovin but psychologically I felt pretty good because I still felt like I was doing something or making this contribution and staying within those things that we're in alignment both before and during. What were the factors that helped you maintain that alignment and I want you to think really holistically here? Is it the fact that you had a bunch of time for me? That was the case so my day job really ratcheted down and so the time that I would have had to spend trying to juggle doing that as much flexibility definitely so I was able to put down goals that I had before that were just not possible and think of new ones that was going to do during this time period. But maybe for you. It's different things like there were some good boundaries that you put in place with your partner or with your kids or with your job. Maybe it's or maybe those are things that were there before and you maintain during the he was a mindset related thing like you know somehow you went into this new decided that You know this was just GonNa be a focus. No matter what you're GONNA YOU'RE GONNA make it so you're going to what you can to figure it out those factors. That helped you either. Obtain or maintain alignment later on so. Just kind of think holistically again other things might come to you after this but just write down the ones that you can think up now and then. I want you to go to values at significantly shifted going from before Kobe to during there's some positive shifts so I gave the example of Being President L. A. Thanks allie becoming is awesome. Thanks so much There are some so for me. Being present with my kids is something that positively shifted. How did that positive shift feel? Oh my gosh the lift in guilt. Oh my gosh the lift in anxiety when I like 'em there with like just naturally being able to be present with my kids that's amazing the negative shifts like army romantic connection like my husband and I are doing great. Were like laughing and having fun but like it is not the same when your kids are there the whole time so that one feels like there's a gap or there's something missing there or there's something that I need to fill in. It needs attention. It needs focused attention on just as an example so go through things that were positive chest stuff that moved down. Maybe it goes this way or you guys. Depending on how the vantage point is and then focus on negative ones stuff that went up in that a grid hotted those feel and similar question. What factors contributed to this shift in alignment or my kids? It was because I didn't have deadlines appearance involved. It were not looming deadlines that I was contractually obligated or far fewer of them that I was contractually obligated to fulfill there were far fewer of those also because of that all of the sudden the amount of time that I had to work was greater than the amount of work or it immediately was perceived to be greater than the amount of work that I had to fill up during that time so that was a contributor on the romantic side. My kids are home all the time always year. So they're really funny actually. It's a funny morning already but in that department not great so again think holistically. This could be something internal to you. That was a contributor on. It can be something external situational our relationship situation at work. Whatever that is And again you'll probably think of these things as we move through this exercise and I mean even in the days to come so as you do just jot them down in the interest of time. I'M GONNA keep rocking enrolling. I have this same exercise. A rating yourself a foreign after for that. Second Section of your light or whatever. The other domain is same thing. Go through that rate yourself. Ask yourself those same questions. So there's room in their stages in there to do that if you want to do this for more sections of your life just print those couple pages off a few more times. And you'll have a framework to work off of there. Nasa mad lives. And this is where Asha I think you really like this part because this is where we get pretty specific next chapter of your life. You know you've got this opportunity to make some serious changes and you've got some clues as to what might help you make that change on. You might also have some clues as to what barriers might be there. So Ashley mentioned earlier with a hater change. We like to get pretty specific about what you're going to be doing. We also like to get really honest about one are the factors We've done some habit formation and change work and there are factors both internal and external that reduce friction meaning. Make behavior much more likely to happen because it just makes it easier more enjoyable or easier or more obvious on. There's also Senate factors that increase friction or make a behavior less likely to happen. Because it's like less fun. You have to work harder or it's like easy to miss and just forget about so we're gonNA work through some of those but I want you to fill out a mad lib before Kovin in the realm of my family or my kids so whatever life area we've been working on. I was out of alignment with my value of mindfulness or living mindfully dern covid things what they're missing it s things changed as I enter this next chapter metlife. I'll experiment with the following internal and external changes to obtain so for me obtain alignment. I'm loving the fact that I can be with my kids more. Just be more present and be less anxious with them. Internal and external things internal think about like. This is some of the psychological things. We've been working on here. So maybe you need to like for me when I have a lot of deadlines there's just a level of acceptance that I have to be with that lake sometimes long-term projects jude. They're just at their long-term not everything can be wrapped up in a nice little bow on Friday afternoon. So all the Senate. I have nothing left on my plate. That's just the nature of my work. It's going to be longer term so some of the things that we talked about acceptance are going to be really big for me in this area also. Ternal talked a lot about some of the south. Care things that I do where I'm like keeping track of like wait. How everything's moving in where it fits in. That's playing a really big role here. Because I mentioned I've got more time than I have work than I need to be doing. Knowing where all of that fits in the allotted time that I have is important and also boundaries around what I say Yes to. I'm in a situation where I can say. Yes or no to certain work or I can say you know what we're going to say yes to that project. But I'M GONNA go higher ten ninety nine to do it for me. I absolutely have that ability. And that's a boundary that I need to do. I know I'm moving in the right direction when so again when if you go back to how it feels to be in alignment like back to the pieces that we wrote in the beginning. I'm knowing that I'm moving in the right direction when I don't have that level of anxiety when I don't have that spike of as it. When I know there's GonNa be a chunk of time that I'm not going to be able to pick up my computer at all. I can just be more present. I can just be there when things feel more at ease when I'm not is anxious. I'm GonNa know that I'm moving the right direction now. Notice it's not when I've achieved achieved. This is just. I'm getting there like yeah this is. This is moving in the direction. That is in more alignment to what I'm looking for. And here's where we need to get honest knowing me and knowing my normal life back to what it was before the following internal and external barriers are likely to crop up. I will try to people please. My internal logistics person will convince that I can it even though I know I shouldn't are that I can't or that it's not a good idea for me to say yes. I will say yes to things that I know are not essential because I'm trying to help someone else out with their work or their needs to the detriment of my own externally. I- will get a lot of requests for people who want time on my calendar suggests be honest about what those things are that are likely going to be barriers that are going to crop up and think about now before you're in the situation and ways that you're gonNA solve for them so I'm already thinking about like it's been such a nice and I asked you to say. How do you know you're moving in the right direction? How does it feel because for me like again? I'm just using this one. Little sliver of like being with my kids and being more mindful is been so nice to just like be like. It's so nice that if I remember that and I put myself in that position when that email comes in for somebody who says April could you speak at our blah-blah meeting it would be great? We can't pay you and there's really nothing but like we just really want your time or April. Can I just get on your calendar? I can remember I'm giving up this like awesome fiance. My said no awesome feeling and putting myself in that before mindset and it is like I've gotten to experience with that feels like to not have it and it's great so that's kind of away. I want you to like really like settle into what that experiences because it helps you say no way when you need to or helps you do some of the work that you're going to have to do in order to kind of circumvent some of these things and your office though is you're also getting this and I'll keep this brief because it's a whole other option by to do that right to say no to those requests which is what you need in order to have this experience that you want. You're GONNA have that momentary user guilt have popping up but I think we may have a really clear sight of our values and the committed actions that aligned with those values it's so much easier to say. Yemen is momentary discomfort while Matt pleasers freaking out and feeling guilty like I shouldn't say no I'll take that because it's worth it in the long run that's for behavior. Change IS HARD. We do things that maybe after the fact or before the factory don't really want to reset internal discomfort that comes up that propels. Us toward so having those values. Same thing if it comes to you know you live. Healthily will means momentary discomfort of not giving into a craving breakfast ice cream right. It's something but if you know. I am committed to this. And here's my wides cheesier And I I mean. There's a reason why I put this question on here around. How did those positive shifts? He'll in how negative shifts feel. Because it's something you can come back to again when I think about This morning being able to just like lay in my kids little play tents and read books and whatever. It just wasn't a big deal like it. We hung out. And if I had ten deadlines that felt bigger than the amount of time that I had to finish them. If I was doing the people's amount of work instead of one or even dare I say less than one. It would have been a different experience and it's so nice to not have to feel that way on the opposite. End The gap that. I'm feeling in just being able to have like focused connection holy cow. I mean it's leading to changes already lake if you can really settle in the the what like what you need to do. It comes clear and when you can clear a path with those barriers it becomes easier. I'll give total concrete example of Salt Lake. I like we need like a date hardcore and I don't know how to make that happen right now. And oddly enough a vineyard that we visited when we were in Paso two three years ago is doing a virtual tasting and they're like by the fifth of May you have to order your bottles of wine and we're going to do on you know I g live and whatever and unlike y'all impulse buy these bottles of wine and I'd like we have a date with the kids to bed that night. We're GONNA do this wine tasting because I can't. We have to do something that feels like an adult activity that we would have done before. Not even just sit around our house talk but like do something. That was an activity. We liked before and that I would never have done that. Had I not been thinking about lake? God there's like this gap here like. There's chasm that we need to fix an it doesn't feel good and so that spurred this action to just. Belabor this long story but I just told. How's everybody feeling questions at all? That came up. We of made it through one swipe of this on. There's a bunch of these like a bunch of mad libs pages that follow because in each area of your life you may do more than one of these You know you might have one area of your life in a couple of values that you want to rely too so feel free to print off is many of these as you need to work through those two areas of of your life. We only gone through one of them on or go back and rewatch this work through other sort of combinations of these. It's kind of a way to say like you know the design process like it takes you down more of a defined funnel so that each step sort of tells you what to do next and that's what I'm hoping this day it is like gets you into a place instead of just saying. Wow this is going to be a really big change. What I do not just focus in an focusing in focused in. And how do you want to look? How do you want it to feel what's right for uniquely you? Don't worry about anybody else. Because they should be doing this for in their own lives to deal with. I want you to focus on your own life right. Now take responsibility for your own experience throughout this change. And if it's helpful comeback to exercises like this and work through What might be the right password view? Cool ANY QUESTIONS. Any other lake. I'm glad that's helpful. Thank you got while people might be coming up with questions April. Just have to say you know. I think you're pretty much bad ass. This was incredible and taken the time to put together. This awesome workbook and process guys. She she did the specifically for us on these free calls to meet a need during this Cova. Chance of this wasn't reaching into our of something that we already had alleged Cusi. Thanks this is really quite a guest. Good I'm glad I love this stuff things like this. I mean it's still raining lake. It's so simple but like for me I mean for the for the more People who are more numbers driven or whatever maybe the top part helps for people who are a little bit more visual. Maybe the bottom part helps it also helps. I think this is designed thinking. This is the design thinking portion of this where it takes like these experiential activities and makes things look more obvious like oh God but if you sort of take a ten thousand foot view of what that page looks like you can kind of see in just this little sliver of your life. How big of a shift had happened? It's like well. Of course this like an upheaval. Or course this area lifestyle really crazy. There was a lot that was moving around within. You can of see it when there's lines going everywhere like wow. This was kind of a mess on so I love stuff like that like that field is just full of these like crazy. You know little tricks that you can do to get your brain to think a little bit differently. Margaret. I'm glad you liked. It will keep working through this. You guys obviously this download is already in the replay. Will this video cut in put up on that same replay page? I'll shoot announcement out as soon as it's ready on but feel free to work through it as many times as you need to to just kind of think through like what is this next chapter. Look like don't waste this opportunity seriously. I mentioned at the start of the call the experience of losing my dad and I'm not kidding like there was a day. I this is like what might talk was about was basically day that I realized My Dad doesn't have time anymore to do any of the things that I'm not doing right now like I have all these things that I want to be doing and I'm not doing them because I'm worried about what other people think. I'm worried that I might not be great at them or worried that they might be hard. And I'm basically like wasting my time and it's time that my dad would kill to get back and he is not going to get back. Sangita said I am beginning awesome in. It's just it's not lip service when I say I'm so passionate about getting people to take this seriously because if you think about each of you think about even one person in your life who is close you who you lost and what they might want to be doing right now even just a crappy circumstances that were all in. What would they WANNA be doing right? Now that you're able to do I mean it's just huge and it just makes you wanna live with a little bit more urgency not urgency in like. Get our soft on the urgency in like. Don't put off the things that you could be doing and do get seriously. It's not just like fluff around. You should pass like possible like no seriously you should because It's GonNa get taken away at some point and everybody deserves to have that best experience last fall on CD to send using this time to look at my old identity and had to change. Some of that. Also live in alignment with my values hundred percent All could gig out for like years on your grandfather's Day. I know this infinite and learning right now around The false nature of what our identity actually is. I like I like to lay on the floor to even process what I was reading. Unlike a can't even tiniest book ever like can't even and I'd like I've had to put stuffed up online. We can't even. I don't even know what the same so yes that is. The point is like you absolutely can cast aside in old identity and be like harketting more. I'm not going to be that person anymore. So Good Bravo all right friends. Thank you so much for joining us. This session replay will be up soon. Until then the offering to shoot US comments. If you're working three things the questions you clarifications if you want This trip to chime in and help you with anything Feel free to leave comments. Were always welcome. Our we're always happy to hop in and Give some thoughts and some direction to help you. Get UNSTUCK IF need be. It's a simple fact that nearly everyone in the world could benefit from buildings psychological strength but not everyone will put in the time and effort to do so but today you did you so much for listening to this episode of building psychological strength. Now if you're interested in building the mental toughness confidence and resilience of you. Need to thrive through life's ups and downs visit us at. Www DOT peak mind psychology dot com. Also if there's someone in your life who could benefit from this episode please share with them and if you yourself found this episode valuable meaning if you took away even one insight that you can use to build psychological strength in your own life we would so appreciate it if you would drop us a rating and review on itunes. The thing is the more ratings and reviews we have the easier it is to get this powerful important content out to the people who need to hear it. Remember your mind can be your most valuable asset her biggest liability and you get to choose so choose wisely. My friend and I'll see you next time on building psychological strength.
The #1 Thing To Improve Your COVID Mental Health This Weekend #EP28
"I've so many clients coming to me in this so stressed out about Covid, and this is what I say to them. In a world where more and more business owners. and. Entrepreneurs are struggling to keep it. Due to the pressures around them I wanted to create an experience that sets out to answer one question. How can I inspire you to be healthier? Wealthier happier and connects at a deeper level in relationships? I'm your host, Simon Level and welcome to unshakable leaders. Both. Hey something happened to me last week and I really wanted to do this short episode to share with you because I'm actually just about to go again because it was so good and sometimes. You know we need to repeat something and get consistency to get a similar outcome. And so. I'm having conversations at the moment with clients, and there's a lot of stress around covid nineteen and. I wrote this post and I wanna read you this post and then elaborate on a bit because I just think that it's a really important reminder for all of us. We all need this reminder. And his what I wrote an issues posted first of all on my facebook and. INSTAGRAM. I said coded disappears in the present moment. We don't feel it. Whether, we like it on our covert is here for a while longer in our awareness whether you believe the numbers whether you are slipping a mask over your face on, it's here at some level in our awareness. Even if they announced today that the entire world was opening backup, and it was over, it was gone. Everybody reading, or listening to this would have a different timeframe of Kovin Cova leaving your awareness. How much you consume! How much is trapped in your subconscious? It leaving depend on a multitude of factors. When I was powder boarding this weekend, and that's why I'm sharing this show with just about to go paddle boarding again this morning. A fantastic reminder of how covid can disappear the length of time it can disappear is in direct relation to how. You are present in the moment you see when I fell off the paddle board and splashed into the water. Cova was not in my awareness. When I looked into the horizon and appreciated view. Cova was not in my awareness. When I was putting in efforts into my stroke, having conversations with my friends. COVID was not there. I said I've had many conversations over the past week. With the my clients about the stress of the current situation, we are in and I remind them. That the moments when we are being covid does not exist. You don't feel it. You see many people feel it even though they don't have it. And I said, manifestation of diseases is possible from Seoul alone, and there are plenty of case studies to prove that people have let it go when they've shifted their mindset. Right, you see there's no pain in this present moment, says no stress. because. We're in appreciation of the here and now. And, I said. I've been a in the news and I want to keep up to date, but I've radically been able to reduce my co that anxiety by focusing on the present moment. I also went on to say about meditation, and of course. If you've been listening to the show every single Monday, there's a new meditation and n these present moments when we're not in the future worried about what's going to happen in the future all going into the past. It all falls away. So whatever your belief whatever you have built up in your mind I want to ask you this question today. When was the last moment where co the did not exist for you? Was it reading a book? Was it having. Fun with your family. Was a hiking. Was it paddle boarding? You See. The reason why I decided to go again today was because last week when I went out, and I've not been paddle boarding a longtime, but last week when I went out. I was just reminded the importance of. Those moments when we all with friends when we are doing an activity in fact last night, I went out for dinner. And, I made a conscious effort to not take my phone with me because I knew. If I phone with me, I'd be probably checking the news or be probably on. Some kind of APP and something would take me away from the present moment into what's happening. And sat here right now I do. Want to still keep up to date with things, but I think it's to the degree of which that cap captures us because we all know that we can go down the rabbit hole for example, and we can be consumed in a discussion. Oh, one looking, you know one news item can lead to another, and when you build up hours versus minutes right when you build up those hours you. We have to remind ourselves of how much. It low is I vibration and fact coming very soon on Jacob elite is I'm going to do an episode on a multitude of things are gonNA help to raise yo vibration, and keep you in a high energy, and so we have to become hyper aware of the things that pull us down and for some. BASILIO's business owners entrepreneurs listening to this. You will find it hard to appeal yourself away from the computer. because. You're addicted to it right and it's not normal for you to go out and have fun and spend time with people because you're consumed by what you do for some of you. Listening I know that you are out in nature. You are walking your your pets. You are paddle boating. You are getting fit. You are doing all of those things and so. It's important for us to sit down and actually start to monitor that and look at look at our calendars and see what we have planned in. If you do something like I did last week and it was fun to me. Make it a regular event. Say to the people around you. We enjoyed this. We'd love this. Why don't we do this again? Why don't we make this irregular thing? But what? I know to be true for me? Is that sometimes I'm waiting for the other person to come to me for the invitation versus me doing the invitation. And I think it's so important during this time that we develop more friendships. I think that during this time. It's important that if we do have friendships, we say. Can we do something more often? And we let the EGO, and we start to just intuitively send the message do to thing. Get the connection going and see what forms from it you what comes from it? Because I. Know personally for me. I've been very bad at doing the reach out. Right, because there's been a fear of rejection. You know. Sometimes people do say no, and it's important to not create the story around that sometimes people say. You know I can't right now, but invite me next time. And and so. We just have to get into that. Regularity. because I know that when I am in those present moments when I am on the Paddle Board, sometimes my best business ideas come from those moments and I've spoken about that before some of my best. Inspiring moments come from the present moment. Come from the shower. Come from the run. I've I've done some amazing meditations for programs I've created A. I can remember one of them and actually just a message this morning from of my members in one of my group's saying Oh my God this, and that I put together that meditation came from a run. I was on a run and I just came up with this idea came back and I took action. So. If you're a business owner that your touristy bad taking yourself out into time off. Understand what you're missing. Are some of your biggest business moments. Some question is as you're listening to this. What do you need to do? Right what you need to do to take us up into the present moment today, not just meditation because you voted taught you that, but the message the event, the the event bright. You know connection that the person that you can go and spend some time with where you actually say. Hey, can we leave off owns? Away today and you both look each every new. You say damn. That's a good idea, try. Right I will see on Mondays. Meditation have a great weekend. Take care. Thank you for listening to this episode. Please hit the subscribe to make sure that you don't miss out on another show. And if you want to do a deep dive into becoming even more unshakable, you can reach super high performance. I just put together a brand new training. The you can get instant access to by heading to Simon. Level DOT com slash unshakable. I will see that most see on another episode. Take it easy.
CJ's Diary - Grief in COVID
"This week. I decided to do a C. as diary. As I've been thinking, we are approximately four for some of US four and a half months into quarantine. COVID is taking over the world and has been taking over the world for quite some time I'm sure you're feeling. Cooped up and grieving and a little sad, but also trying to figure out what normal looks like whether you have children, or whether you have parents in your house, or whether you're just living by yourself trying to live your life, it's tough and so because this is a grief podcast. I was very curious. And maybe this is a little morbid, but I was very curious about what happens when someone you care about. Dies during Kovin and I kinda continued asking this question of myself over and over again for those of us that have lost loved ones that that mattered to us, and so I wondered what the grief process what the thought processes is when you're already grieving during covert and then trying to add on viz additional just. Mind Fuck. So. As I've been wandering my way through this rabbit hole of thought I did stumble upon someone. Her name is Jules. She has an awesome blog. Got Gets Oh eight, and I wanted to talk to her about what losing her grandparents, not even sixty days apart during Kovin was like. What was the funeral lake? How did you decide who could go in who would stay? I mean she does have a large family like many of us do so. How do you decide what ten people who are socially distancing can't hug each other can't hold. Each Other's hand can't even really be in each other's faces. Go to a funeral and more in the person that was lost. Did you know that you have to ask for permission to livestream? I mean the complication of a memorial or funeral is just already a lot. Ba. Let's throw in Cova Gas. So? This is my largely unedited conversation with Jules I hope you enjoy it, but first let's have jewel. Tell you about her blog right quick. It's really cool and I'm so excited that I found her gaca to. Eight has done my blog. The last six years I have Crohn's disease, and along the way. I've also found out that I have any Tros N. P.. C., O. S. so I got diagnosed in two thousand eight claim to get my guts was got guts in two thousand eight slots that comes from minutes to my journey and ten of my online support. I lost my grandmother April Twenty Fifth and we're in Florida so Miami is where my family is. Miami was under Kinda. Still is a lockdown. I mean a whole state. You couldn't gather more than ten people in a room and my grandmother We have a big family, so there's a way more than ten of us. There's no more than ten people that live in Miami. That could have attended the funeral on, so they kinda had to. Decide, who was going to go and be there. Man I lost my grandfather June twenty ninth almost sixty days apart. And more people could go to this one this funeral. But, we still chose not to just Miami. Dade County is such a a hot spot right now for the virus that you know. We didn't think it would be a smart idea to. Go visit a place that. Has such high numbers, especially with me being immuno-compromised. That's crazy, I I'm sorry that you lost your grandparents period and I'm sorry. I'm even more sorry that you've lost now. I couldn't imagine. Just sort of like no matter how close you are with them, it's still stocks amend kind of being like a I always think of like funerals, memorials or something to that effect to sort of opportunity to get a little closure. So and that's the thing. I lost my mom's parents. Forty two days apart so this isn't the first time that I've lost people so close together, but with my mom's parents. They lived here with US and I. I was able to be with them. see the process and attend a funeral where here you know, I hadn't. I went down to Miami in December and I couldn't see my grandmother because she had another infection, and I was afraid that I was gonNA catch it, so I was down in Miami, but didn't see her, but I saw my grandfather, and then we had plans of going back down after Covid, but it I mean before covid. COVID started but it just. It just didn't happen. you know as February we started seeing people talking about it and we decided that again. It wasn't worth it, and then they started locking down places where the elderly were, and my grandmother and grandfather were both in assisted living facilities, so we couldn't go see them. My Grandmother was okay mentally. She was able to hold a conversation. kind of note was going on. She kinda thought that we had. Had abandoned in her. which is what was so hard with? She couldn't grasp the concept of why we couldn't go. See Her and my aunt would go see her every day in the house like you know in her. LS I was difficult to not be able to be with her in those last couple months, and then my grandfather, my aunt was able to see through a window. His Al has a window or by his room so she. She was able to walk outside and see him. They did have to be in separate Al. laughs because after my grandmother's infection in December, she ended up having like a feeding tube placed and the place that my grandfather was at wouldn't do that kind of specialty care, so they have been separated. Since about December I grandfather did have Alzheimer's disease in was pretty late in his progression. He didn't really know what was going on, I mean he knew. Knew if you said something to him, he would smile and he would kinda blow kisses and stuff like that and you know. He knew that we were family but I don't think he realized that you know what was going on with the whole covert and I mean that's kind of a good thing was he wasn't kind of aware of what was going on, but my grandmother was, and she ended up a few days before she passed. Passed away, she ended being admitted to the hospital with the cove like symptoms until we realized Dang here, we go her a Alaska exposed, and now she has it, but her tests came back negative. They tested her in a couple of different times, and it turned out just to be pneumonia. The only good thing about her, not having tested positive for Covid was that she was able to be placed in hospice care and because she was in hospice. Hospice the hospital allowed somebody to come see her, so my aunt was able to go and Kinda. Pay respects for everybody and she wasn't alone I mean. My aunt really wanted to be there Minnesota everybody, but my aunt lives in Miami and was able to to be with her and let her know that she wasn't alone before she died, so that helped that. We have kind of that one person. Go in there and spend time with her. I would think that. It's good that I mean in a good way. You do know that. Her assisted living facility didn't expose her to Kobe. So that's a good thing, so there's lots of. Good and terrible. At the same time. Did you or your family say anything to your on teller her? The tell them like you know. Please tell grandma. Please tell mom this, so my dad is a very tough person. He doesn't like to show emotion at all, so it was difficult because I know. My Dad had a lot, he wanted to say and he kind of would be the only one to be able to express dot. My Dad's kind of person that every mother's Day would kind of go surprise her her birthday would go down there. He would do his own thing. I don't think words are really his forte. It's more of actions. So I think that was a big struggle for him was that he wasn't able to Kinda. Do what he wanted to say and kind of be there I don't I don't know if my aunt and my dad actually had a conversation about this I know that my dad, you know. Kinda was happy that she lived as long as she did because she had been having health issues so i. don't I don't know. I know that I told her just to tell her that. I loved her I knew that. My Grandmother knows that she was able to meet my daughter, so she was able to see her granddaughter and my daughter Actually has light is, and I have very dark is, but my daughter's father also has light is, and so does my grandparents so my grandmother. Every time she saw her was I call. Somebody has my is because we all have dark eyes, so that was kind of a good memory that our kind of cherish forever and I'll tell my daughter you. You know you. Have Your great-grandmothers is? Don't forget that I guess 'cause since both my since my grandfather, both were kind of doing poor health wise I think every time we went down there. We kinda treated it I was it might be the last time we see you? My grandmother would always send birthday cards on our birthday with a check and she would sing happy birthday, and we all would be. This is so annoying like I'm almost thirty. Stop singing. Happy Birthday to me. It was you know it was tough that I I missed like I, I my birthday happened after she passed away and I was like you know I didn't get that call. I didn't get that. That happy birthday. Call in the know the card. She was still signed her cards and actually have a card that she gave my daughter for her birthday with a check and I kept the check and everything, so she could see kind of what I got growing up I think that specialty, but I know that's one thing that I mentioned at her funeral was that she would send all her grandkids and great grandkids, a little card with the check and sing everybody Happy Birthday That tough this year knowing that I wasn't GonNa get that anymore I think. Isn't there something about like grandmothers? 'CAUSE? My Grandmother Does the same thing. She sent a card in the check. Just a little something they love you. Now, what was the funeral lake? Get went Many of you did not rain. For Your grandmothers. Maybe more of you came. We're able to go for your grandfather's, but still not everybody. They both looked actually very similar my dad's by uncle lives. Just a few hours away from Miami, so he was able to travel down, so it was my aunt, my uncle, my sister went to represent my dad's family, and then my cousins grandfather's. There was some people from the AL less. That were there I want to say and more like Nick and others of our like our cousins. Before my grandmother's, we actually had to ask permission from the Catholic Church to be able to livestream the service, so we were obviously granted that in my sister was able to set up per laptop with zoom in so a lot of the family was able to come on and be a part of the service via zoom, so that was that was nice. I knew I'd been to a service with the priest before the priests like a good friend of my cousin's, so it was kinda comforting to know the person doing the the service. My cousin also called me and asked you know the priests had before the service. You know seeing so that we can get to know our grandparents from our perspective, so it was able to help kind of Kinda right that narrative for who grandmother was and my grandfather and kind of what they did to us. That was so important special, but I set it up on my TV for my family. Family to see. My Dad actually did not come over to see it. He was doing what he does best in being working in staying busy because he didn't want to watch it at the time, but we were able to report it, so he could watch later and kind of process it his own way, but I didn't think anything of it and I set it up on my TV. I had the whole thing going. We sat on my couch. Watch the service, and then for the actual funeral. My sister called us on WHATSAPP so that my brother and I could see. The funeral in her actually being, she got put in a wall I I'd never seen that before, so that was. Interesting to see how they like, lift the casket and push into the wall and stuff like that, but it was difficult because. On WHATSAPP CALL! You can see the other people's faces while you're viewing that. And for my grandmother's was looking at my brother's face, and my brothers just like my dad where he kind of holds his emotions in. So. It's like you know you're seeing your grandmother. Being. Buried and it's you know you're looking at the face of your brother and like my mom was crying. And it was it tough because I think when you're at a funeral, you're looking. At the casket you're looking. You're not looking at others reactions, and for this for my grandfather's. My Dad was on the call, too, so I could. I was looking at my dad's face. And it was hard because I knew that he wanted to be there. We all want it to be there, but it was hard to see that he lost both his parents in. Sixty days and my dad's never been like. I said once to show emotions. It was difficult to kind of process that and see my dad Kinda. Go through that, so that was an interesting thing that I didn't think about until after everything was said and done that Cova gave us ten different perspective because I was looking at other people looking at the same thing trying to view their perspective on. Losing a family member. So, it's hard. It's definitely different I guess technically were on month four rates over a lot of us, but it's but Kovic probably been around since like October technically. Is What. We're sort of discovering as talking to my friends. This weekend I was like they relate. What have you been doing during? Quarantine knows lake. Oh, I've been working in like sort of piddling around house in learning how to cook different things and being excited about being the person. I feel for your father in hit like. His siblings sort of thinking about losing apparent end. That being tough, even though they're sick. And they've been sorta sickly for a while. However, long awhile really is and then but like. COVID has been so tough. I think for many people just. In general so then adding on this sort of additional lake. What's grief? Lake is? Really sad was like even at the funeral. Look with my family they're. There for my grandmother's at least there was no like hugging. And Hispanic people up to like hug and kiss. It's how we say hello, and there was none of that, and that was hard I could see my youngest cousin. My grandparents raised her. They lived across the street from her. Every day after school before school they were she's. She's fourteen now, and so since she was born. They've been a pivotal role in her life and you know seeing her. Break Down and cry. At all anybody wanted to do is go in hugger. And we couldn't when I was hard, that was hard to see just how painful it was in knowing that we not even a hug could could help. So that was A. it's the reality of Kovic is especially that they live in a different area and. We don't all live. Together to it's it's hard to me. Yeah no, that makes sense because she wasn't able. You guys weren't able. You can't know what she's been exposed to so you? You had to stay away. Even though like she's fourteen. Get stinks. I'm almost I'm twenty nine. And I lost my grandparents, but I can't imagine being fourteen and losing people who raised you, so that's. I definitely you know I. We have spoken to her any. I've let her know how I feel. I'm always here for her to talk to, but I cannot imagine especially not being able to see them since you know for the past four months. So. Definitely tough. Is Their family planning to do anything? Later like sort of after the covid stuff is over in like doing you know maybe re memorial something like got. That's my understanding. Is that yeah, that's what they would want to do I think any one of the things I've learned from Hispanic funerals is it's more about celebrating a life? Bennett is like the loss of the person in so typically. There's a week before the funeral and it's kind of like a party you sit with the body for all night and you play games and talk and drink. There's food. So I think that that aspect will come after just to Kinda. Get everybody involved because there are so many people and for my grandfather's funeral. They did a mass for him. In Puerto Rico And they livestream as well. There definitely has been talk about doing something after all this is done, so we can all get together. And kind of Make up for not being together. Do. You think that will be helpful for. I, think so, I think it's also going to kind of bring up. Bring it all up again. I know that. Like you know my mom like I said our families were incredibly close There was never like let's do something with Mom's side of the family. Let's do something with Dad's side. It was. Let's do something with the whole family. So I know at least from my mom myself and my brothers and sisters as well you know losing my mom's parents forty two days apart, and then losing my grandparents now sixty days apart kind of brings up. All that of not just my grandparents on my other grandparents now my siblings and I don't have grandparents anymore. So it's that that loss of also being a granddaughter. And so I think yeah, you know it's going to be good to see everybody Kinda. Have that closure, but then it brings up again. that. That loss and that you know you. That's identified as well that you know. We don't have that and let's I don't I. Know He's for me. It's going to be difficult to. Make have it be a good time I guess Kinda. Be excited to see everybody. At the same time. You know knowing that they're not with us and kind of I wouldn't say the only reason we go to Miami to see my grandparents, but that was a big driving force while we would go down so frequently. And I do have so much family still down there that I hope that you know. We still go down frequently to see them in Kinda. Keep those relationships strong I think grandparent's of help. Make that stronger. Some curious to see how the family dynamic switches now that? They're the grandparents. Aren't there anymore? That makes that makes sense. Because like every piece of your family plays such a pivotal role in the end sort of the lake family as a whole so with you not being able to do what you're used to doing like these last four months or so. Plus than you lose the people that you care about in who make up such a pivotal role inside the family sort of relationship dynamic that yeah I'm sure it'll bring a lot of. A lot lots of a loss. An eight and a half hour drive so I'm sure you've you know. Plenty of time to. Reflect on it and. So it's just it's a lot to think about a lot to. Process you'RE GONNA keep processing it because. The reality is they are they're both on and you know like I said we couldn't be there and it was hard. That's in that. It's challenging. What would you want people to know about? Like sort of the effects of cove it on grief I mean it's hard. It's hard kind of contemplating Cova. In The Times, as it is, and not being able to be around people and maintaining that social distancing when you are. Any now everybody's kind of losing a piece of themselves and their normalcy with Covid, so there is a sense of grief. Already you know you. Your routine is gone. You're. The activities you enjoyed you enjoy. Doing can't happen right now like you know baseball season that was that was tough and just stuff like that, so it's like everybody is already morning things whether they know it or not. You know meant to add loss and grief. Thought, I think it's. What I would say is it's okay to. Seek help talk to somebody industry in Cova now is. An adding the loss of somebody to even more grief is. Hard, then I guess it's, it's okay I know it's okay for it to be hardened so Kedah to process and what I've noticed is. That, I've had so much time like me too much time to process things rump thinking about it in all kinds of avenues directions where it's overwhelming in the night I feel even more depressed than even more. Loss like I've gone down. How many rabbit holes thinking? What if what if this would back because I? Don't have as much to do, so it's. It's tough. It's been it's been very difficult to navigate. By. My one thing would be you know it's okay to to ask for help in to talk to people on if you are overwhelmed. You know find somebody under. There's a lot of like health services that you can do counseling over and. That's I think that's very helpful. Yeah, I do think you. Have you have a great point lake, you've been able to you sort of our social you not just you personally. the social. The social we I guess had so much time to. Think reflect. Go down the rabbit holes so I guess it wouldn't be all that much different because we've been grieving. Theoretically, we've been grieving for longer than just after loss. There's a lot of losses right now, and that's what's difficult is trying to maintain who you are what you typically do. And knock it even more caught up with what's happening in the world, and even in your own neighborhood I mean there's just so much going on that it's then to add like a loss of of a family member and then to family members. You know it's it's hard, and you know it's it's it's it's. It's okay for it to be hard. It's supposed to be hard. But it sometimes you know it's lot to handle and. I've been feeling that a lot. I've been feeling. Very lost in just Kinda. I keep telling myself. It's okay, you know. I. Come from a have a master's in social work so. I I kind of talk to myself. My own clinician and I'm like. No have your goals set check in with yourself and. Stuff like that, but I I i. think if I didn't have my family here with me like I live with my parents. I think I didn't have that it would be. Very saddened scary place to be to be so alone a without having them. Check on me and I have a A. A one and a half year old, so I-I. She kind of distracts me a lot. which is good, so I think without them. It would be very different different life, but I definitely find purpose and I think that's the the best thing is to find. A you know something good to do and taken gardening. So that's something good that has come from this tending to the flowers. This podcast is created produced and edited by me. Cj Williams I'd love if you could take a moment to rate and comment about the show on your favorite listening APP whatever it may be, it really does help a lot. Biggest compliment of course would be for you to share your favorite episode with others. visit the website. Sorry to hear podcasts Dot Com there you can get shown notes. Sign up for the newsletter and donate. It'll be much appreciated I'll see you again in two weeks. I'm Jay Williams and this is sorry to hear that.
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