20 Episode results for "King Lear"

Actor Glenda Jackson Is King Lear

Fresh Air

48:04 min | 1 year ago

Actor Glenda Jackson Is King Lear

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from mayo clinic when you are searching for answers that can change your life. You know, where to go mayoclinic more. At mayo clinic dot org slash answers from WHYY in Philadelphia. I'm Terry gross with fresh air today. Glenda Jackson, she's on Broadway in a new production of King Lear, starring as Lear. She finds it remarkable that she's playing the role of a man as we get older. Those absolute barriers that define Genda begin to crack. Jackson took a twenty three year break from acting while she served as a member of parliament in the labor party. Sometimes she was controversial when prime minister Margaret Thatcher died Jackson was jeered by conservatives. As she spoke in parliament about the values. She thought defined Thatcherism greed, selfishness, no cat the week. Shop L. Shot. They was the way school Jackson has one to Oskar two Emmys and won a Tony last year. My guest. Glenda Jackson is starring on Broadway in a new production of King Lear when her Shakespeare's greatest tragedies Jackson plays Lear giving her the opportunity to take on one of the most challenging and prestigious roles in theatre history. But it's a role that for obvious reasons. Always goes to a man near times theater critic Ben Brantley wrote, she is delivering a powerful. And deeply perceptive performance as the most royally demented of Shakespeare's monarchs unquote, King Lear opened on Broadway this month, but Jackson had already played Lear in a London production that opened in two thousand sixteen at the old Vic that's year. She wanted Tony for her performance in the Edward all be play. Three tall women. It's been an incredible return to acting after serving twenty three years as a member of parliament. She was elected in nineteen ninety two and step down in twenty fifteen her career before that. Included Oscar winning performances in the nineteen sixty nine movie women in love in the nineteen Seventy-three romantic comedy a touch of class. She won two Emmys playing Queen Elizabeth the first in the nineteen seventy-one BBC series, Elizabeth r which was shown in the US as part of masterpiece theatre, let's start with a clip from the new Broadway. Production of King Lear Lear has decided that he's old and it's time to unburden himself of his responsibilities as king and divide his kingdom among his three daughters. No, we have divided in three hour kingdom, and I intend to shake all cares and business from our confronting them on youngest rates while we on bed. Earl who on deck? Glenda jackson. Welcome to fresh air. Thank you. The first thing people always seem to want to know is why as a woman playing King Lear, and what's it like to be a woman playing Lear? So you I played him in twenty sixteen at the old Vic in London. Why did you want to play Lear who would refuse the opportunity to work in play of that stature? I mean, it is such an extraordinary play. Like, oh, let's Shakespeare essentially he owned the asks three questions who are we what are we wildly and this particular blades, just astonishing human nature is immutable. And so in the sense, it is the most contemporary play around the minute. We in England had been engaged in kind of gender bend wall. Really? And the marvelous company that was created and succeeded in winning. Those battles. They did all of Shakespeare's histories with over women costs. And so in the sense that battle was over. And what was really into one of the really interesting things for me playing. It was that nobody ever mentioned the fact that I was a woman playing a man having seen the play. And also the other interesting thing I found in doing it. When I was a member of parliament part of my duties was to visit out people's homes day centers things of that nature, and as we get older, those absolute barriers that define gender begin to crack, they begin to get a little bit foggy and break up. And if you think about it, I mean when we're born we teach babies don't we always girls as we get older we begin to explore. I think raw the more. They'll turn the tips to are defying gender. And that certainly for Lear is quite useful. I want to. Elaborate a little bit on how you see gender boundaries blurring or falling away with age and to apply to your own life as well. If you find it applicable. Well, I think I'm a bit of a cheat. Because when things tough and kind of direct way in my real life. I don't have any qualms about playing the old car. Do you know what I mean? I mean setting as far as underground is concerned young people do get up and and of me as seat the first time it happened. I felt absolutely mortified. I now I'm beginning to get to the stage. Where expected in the mortified if it doesn't happen but nine times out of ten thousand, but in direct reference to the play the things that he kicks out being, you know, he's a guy no one during his entire life. And he's eighty years old in this play has ever said no to him. And suddenly someone does say no to him, and it all begins to crack for him not in that immediate moment. But that's the story of the play. And so those aspects of him which were over. Vertically masculine because that was the era in which he lived the environment in which he lived begin to move from absolute, I'm rights and everybody else is wrong. That's a simplistic way of putting it do actually evaluate whether he was always, right? And he begins to doubt it, and that's very interesting. Are there lines from Lear that have the most meaning to you either? Personally, or that you find most powerful or dramatic to say as an actor. I tried to avoid that I try to observe the world through the characters is but people who see the play do point out lines that a particularly meaningful to them. I was rather regret that they do that. Because then it gets kinda stuck in my head. And I have to find another way of finding first time. If you see what I mean, I think I do that. You don't want to sound like a famous. Line. You want it to sound like like, it's as of its, you know, it's direct thought. I mean, it's it arises out of the scene that Joe trying to create with the other actors on on the stage. Yeah. But I mean, you know in one's own time. There are lines that sort of reverberating echo. Yeah. Psychiatrists have tried to diagnose Lear like like is this dementia related to age is at some other kind of like cognitive disorder is at manic, depression, you can read all kinds of things that psychiatrists have said. I know you try to be inside the character not outside the character. Nevertheless, do you think what he's experiencing is the onset of age related dementia. I would think it was somewhat unlikely given the time in which it was written. I have you know, I mean, gosh Shakespeare is in my view, the most content. Temporary writer there is. But I think at the time the play was written people living to the age of eighty would have been a fairly rare occurrence, but nonetheless, it is undoubtedly the case that as I've said I've seen it as we get older those kind of gender barriers begin to crack. But also, people must've experienced walked we are experiencing now as we all living too much greater age of the mixture of what is physical and mental decay. And it is in fact, I think a big backhoe for most western democracies? How are we going to cope with this the cassette? And if I look at my own country, we now have a much larger nonworking by virtue of age in retirement population than a working population. How we can look after I elderly if we are all going to go down that road. I know we're not gonna go down that road, and they will be I have no doubt advances in medical science. But you know, it is something that I think was still tending to think it'll be alright ilmenite and deigned. So the there's the language, of course, is as written but in the production that you're in. Now, you've spent part of the play wearing a tuxedo as do other male characters. The the the costumes are pretty contemporary the furniture is kind of contemporary. So you have this mix of the original hundreds of years old, text and contemporary updating that we physically see there's also music by Philip glass, who is you know, a very twentieth and twenty first century composer. How do you feel about that coming together of, you know, the old tax with aspects you say the otx forgive me VIN dropped in you. But there was a celebration of few years ago. Remember what it was either? It was Shakespeare Berthel shakes his death icon. Remember? A my grandson school that there from the age of three and two eleven but I think they about seven when they did this the school celebration of Shakespeare in that way, the teachers went round with their mobile phones, you know, with the cameras on them and each class had to had given were given specific Lear line from Shakespeare to say into the camera, and this was compiled into a film, which was delightful, those children had absolutely no difficulty saying any of those lines because the majority of the apartment Postle everyday language now, I mean, just think of the stuff that he wrote and how we use it. I mean within the play I'm transferring it around forget and forgive her prices fallen I mean. That guy was just incredible. So we've been talking about you playing King Lear, let's hear you as Queen. Elizabeth the first in an extra year EMMY award winning performance in the BBC series, Elizabeth r which came to the US as part of masterpiece theater. So in this scene, you're the new Queen. You're twenty five years old and unmarried and your council is trying to pressure you to marry quickly. A member of your council challenges you to accept a suitor in front of a Hocquart. And by the end of the scene. Everyone around you is kneeling, and here's my guest. Glenda Jackson with actor as midnight. The Archduke Charles will be most happy to come to England your majesty, and I shall be most happy to see him. But if he comes he will come here as your future husband to that. And if else would become syncopal, I have often to the imperial ambassador imperial ambassador doesn't tell your majesty as well as. I do. But he knows how to listen. The two ambassador magistate listens to what he's meant. And not only to what is said. Then I will say again and meet it the Archduke Charles may come to England as our guest guest as the husband Bill choice. I have not said that, but you have invited the two chows to your call. I have said he is welcome. Very welcome your majesty. I hope welcome as any other guest would be. I'm glad to hear it. I to king Philip and tell him that you have invited the Archduke Charles to England. And that he comes here as your future husband, if he comes on those terms he had not come at all. Your highness. He said he was to come here. I have never invited him. I have never said I would marry him. I have never said I would marry anyone. Real magic. There was a scene from Elizabeth are with my guest. Glenda jackson. So we've heard you as King Lear. We've heard you as Queen Elizabeth having played. You know, fictional king and portrayed an actual Queen did make think of gender differences between kings and queens oh of much so because setting as far as Elizabeth was consent. And I mean, that's face it. She'd had the most tumultuous upbringing heaven. She I mean, HAMAs head was chopped off when she Elizabeth. I think was three she had all these various stepmother's ofter. Couple of who also went the wave over flesh. The hands of her father has sister who took of the throne was not particularly in favour of. And there was always this pressure upon her when she did become Queen to marry to ensure that had line continued and one of her extraordinary strengths. It seems to me having read histories, and one thing another was that had great strength was that she didn't make. A fast decision, which is in marked contrast to what leads us she would vacillate. She would put things out. She would delay stuff. And then if something happened like, for example, the trial of Mary Queen of Scots and heretics Q she would blame everybody around having done something that she claims she didn't want to happen. Now, she wasn't lying when she said she didn't want to happen. Gee, didn't want it to happen. And yet there must have been part of the new that they'd have to happen. But of course, it was taking away the divine right of kings. Even though that time the ruling was a Queen. So you've played kings. And queens you've served in parliament you elected to parliament in nineteen Ninety-two you've played powerful people and you've had political power not king low. Really? No, no, no, no backbenches. I I cannot stress strongly enough for me one of. The most humbling experience is was being a member of parliament. I mean, I give you I mean, obviously, I think it's amazing that somebody puts an x next to your name. It's not just you. Of course. I mean, they obviously support your party, and hopefully that party's manifesto, but or members of parliament, how will we cold advice surgeries, and you hold them in the constituency and any constituent can come in. And they would and in some instances, they know in the really serious ones. They sort of lay that life out on the table in front of you. You don't know them. They don't really know you and not infrequently their lives tragic or disastrous through no fault of their own and they come to their member of parliament. Because then member of parliament is that port of last resort. You can get response to let people will ring you on the phone in my. My experience. I didn't always get the result that my constituent wanted. But without exception. Whether I did or whether I didn't they always said, thank you. And that is very very humbling. I and a it is a great privilege to be elected to be a member of parliament. And that kind of responsibility is something that really makes you realize who you are. And you're pretty damn small. Yes. Okay. I can see what you're saying you're helping people with constituent services and things like that. But you also stood up against the Iraq war when Tony Blair joined with President, George George W Bush. So like, you you stood up to power in a way that's different from, you know, being an actor. I mean, sure you might wanna stand stand up and object to direction that you're getting. But it's different than standing up to a prime minister who wants. To take your country to war will as I've had occasion to say. It was the fist time in my experience of being a member of parliament have I had voted against my party's policy, and I presume rather light murder. Once you do it for the first. Why did you want to serve in parliament anything? I could have done. I mean, I was member. A who was voted labour? I been all Sked by the party to do various things for them raise money. I wanted the worst party political broadcast ever things of that nature, and I'd been approached by various constituency parties to consider standing as a prospective parliamentary candidates and in ninety two the election was looming. And I think it was in nineteen eighty nine. I was approached by Hamson hike eight which they didn't eat become my constituency anything I could have done that was legal that got Margaret Thatcher. And her government out of office. I was to have a go out. I didn't expect to be selected. I don't think I really expected to win. But we did win that seat. We didn't win the majority to put. His in government till Ninety-seven. But yep. That's why what made you this woman. This woman who said what had the Suffragettes ever done for her that question. Whether there was such a thing as that had destroyed local government in many ways, which before. Power seat. If that's what it was in. It was responsible for delivering services to people in local environments every school in what became my constituency spent the teachers parents not infrequently the pupils spent spare time trying to raise money to buy things like paper and pencils. And now it sounds ridiculous. But that was the case books you go into school library. I mean, they were these books that were falling apart or they were being held together. It was by bit of wallpaper. The teacher dropped it in and stuck down zella tape. The NHS was being attempted to be restructured the national health service. Absolutely as a woman who feels strongly about women's equality. An I assume you consider yourself a feminist was disappointing to you. They're finally a woman becomes prime minister. And she's she's so conservative and stands for so many things that you are against well. I mean, the overwhelming disappointment actually was that my party didn't win. I mean, generally may even I mean at that time, but it was just that she seemed to me to be so out of touch with with what were the realities of life of the majority of people in my country. And yes, of course, it was a disappointment that the first woman elected prime minister was her. But I think rob the more at the time. It was that she was a conservative. It was any of the years that when saw what with a me disastrous policies, wreaking such damage. My guest is Glenda Jackson. She starring on Broadway in a new production of King Lear in the role of Lear after a break will hear how she was jeered and parliament for her comments after prime minister, Margaret Thatcher died, I'm Terry gross. And this is fresh air. We'd like to take a moment to thank and share a message from our sponsor nature's way offering quality herbal supplements since nineteen sixty nine they believe that nature knows best which is why it is always been their mission to seek out. The best herbs the earth has to give nature's way is committed to going to any continent or country to find where herbs grow best. Find out. More at nature's way dot com. Let's get back to my interview with Glenda Jackson. She starring on Broadway in King Lear playing Lear it opened last month, but she'd already played Lear in London in a different production that opened in two thousand sixteen last year. She wanted Tony for her performance in Edward all bees play three tall women. These performances were her return to acting after spending twenty three years as a member of parliament in the labor party. Let's hear what you had to say in parliament after Margaret Thatcher died, and this was in two thousand thirteen and there were many tributes made in parliament. And this was a day. I think when most of the labor members of parliament stayed away. And so conservative members were saying, you know, giving many tributes to Margaret Thatcher. And then you stood up and made a pretty scathing speech while conservative members of parliament, basically. Jeered you? So let's hear what you had to say. We would told that everything I had been taught to regard as a vice. And I still regard them as vices under Thatcherism was in fact, a virtue greed, selfishness, no Ken for the weekend. Shop elbows shop needs. They were the way forward. Continue to here. All. The barriers down. The establishment? That was destroyed cone. What we actually saw the word has been settling around with stars around. It is that she created an aspirational society. Aspired for things as indeed one of the former prime ministers who himself had been elevated to the house of lords spoke about selling off, the family, silver and people knowing under those years, the price of everything and the value of nothing. What concerns me is that? I am beginning to see possibly re emergence of that total traducing what I regard as being the basis spiritual nature of this country, where we do care about society where we do believe in communities where we do not leave people to walk by on the other side that isn't happening now while. So did you expect that reaction when you decided to make those? Oh, yes. Of course. I mean, not up there in the chamber for several hours. One does for these kind of events before I was cold by the speak. Yes. I'd be nice out there listening to her party rewriting history. As far as I was concerned the United Kingdom that they would describing under Thatcher was not the one I'd lived in. It wasn't the one my constituents limit in. And it set me isn't the one that was there when she left so you step down from parliament in twenty fifteen so you've been gone for you know, a few years right now. Like the issue that is preoccupying England is of course, Brexit. Do you feel like England is falling apart during this period of paralysis and all the fears of the. Quences could be if England leaves the EU, especially at least without a deal. Well, I did feel that the country's falling about I sat in the think parliament has lost its reason. I just there smolt clips that one sees them the television here in New York, mostly prime minister's question times in the house of Commons. All MRs may yet again coming back from Europe with some ideas, and I sit there, and I look a lot of those faces. I know that people I know, and I think what in the name of all these holy. Are you doing they have simply lost it? And they have to get the heads back in shape and realized that we cannot crush out without a d just be disastrous, and they are going to have to at some point set aside. What seems to be the party political versus tunes or their own personal view. Of staying or leaving and concentrate on what is best for the country. And what is best for the country's deal? We had a referendum Yukon argue until the cows come home that should never been a referendum on that issue. I would probably argue that because I would like is this day, but the country's democratic decision was to leave and parliaments bounden duty. It seems to me is to deliver that full the country, but deliver it to the best possible means for the country after route. Doing not at the moment. I can tell you would you like to see a new referendum. Some people say, no, what is the point in that? I mean, we had a referendum. So say you have a second Reverend. What's to stop somebody saying, okay? Then let's have a third the best of five fifteen twenty five the country made a decision. The argument is being put forward by seventh among which is the country made decision to total ignorance so what I mean that was its decision. We count rolled the croc back. We have to roll it forward. Did you miss acting while you were in parliament? Oh, no, no acting uniqueness when you do it. So if if you're not doing it, there's nothing. Wait a minute. I miss things. I'm not doing. Like what? My missing friend. You know, I I mean, we all miss things that we're not doing and we miss them because we're not doing them. So but the doing is dependent on so much mold than telephoning friend. I mean, she's a process outside of which you all I mean, the the creation of hopefully, someone will suggest you do is outside you'll remain. And so that's why say unless you doing it. There's nothing to miss. Okay. Let me rephrase this did you ever miss the process of getting into character learning the role thinking about the role thinking about the intentions of the character and interacting with other actors on a set or onstage to create a scene degrade a movie or a play. Well, that would presuppose I had nothing to do of than think about I had nothing to do. But I do show you being a constituency member of parliament. Is twenty four seven job, and what comes through the mail off the computer via the phone. I mean, they can be transfix ING. Okay. Let me ask this one. This do you now that you're acting again? Do you miss being a member of parliament Nelson at the present time because of the Brexit quagmire? Oh managed to put this in. But I do miss my constituency. Yes. And I miss the people that I knew they was of it was a really interesting constituencies represent. So it seems like you thought about the possibility of serving in parliament or doing some kind of public service work back in the seventies. I'm going to play an excerpt of nineteen seventy six interview interviewed by Colin Grimshaw. This excerpt starts with him asking you about what was then your latest film nasty habits based on an oval by mural. Sparks. New initiated the phone. It was sent to me with the idea of of making very good film making very good film with lots of good women's parts, which is waving the flag for women's live because they're women waving polka tenure. When you work on stage. Do you get enough as always? Why having? Because I think the long the more you realize you don't know and the possibilities for making the wrong choices much greater than the probabilities of making the right ones. And that sorta fairy is something that you probably learned to control that. But it doesn't grow any less. Pasta to give up acting take up. Social would you do this? Yes. Because I mean, certainly the life of an actress in films he's very short and in the to this terrible trough when they're no with playing. I mean until you hit it on sixty few sort of cracking character pop, and I really don't see myself hanging around for twenty years waiting to play Videon something. And I said he doesn't see myself sitting at home just polishing the phone. I'm coming back to acting not really, no. Okay. The one thing that sounds wrong in that is that you did come back to acting. But everything you say that sounds like so contemporary the shortage of roles for women, especially at certain ages. The deal is an absolute that has not changed during my -xperience. In acting. So in that interview clip, you obviously feel strongly about the women's movement or women's lib as he has he called it how what I really really feel strongly about. And I wish I could come up with the reason for it is why contemporary dramatists find women so boring. They are rarely if ever the driving dramatic engine of of a play or film of you. And I didn't know why that is. I mean, we are by no means equal as Gento sitting not worldwide. But that have been major improvements doors have opened for women that were firmly. Locked many decades ago, why don't contemporary dramatists find this interesting, but they don't let break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us. My guest is Glenda Jackson, and she's now starring on Broadway as King Lear in. In King Lear. We'll be right back. This is fresh air support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Exxon Mobil, the company that believes that carbon capture technologies are critical for lowering global CO two emissions and more and more. Scientists agree as a leader and capturing emissions in its own opperations. Exxon Mobil is working on ways to make this technology. More efficient and affordable for other industries as well. That's the unexpected energy of Exxon Mobil. Find out more at energy factor dot com. Movie season is here and pop culture. Happy hour hasn't recovered for a guide for the blockbusters. You know about surprise bright spots. You might not. We'll tell you what we are looking forward to what were secretly dreading. And what might sneak up on us? Listen, now, and subscribe. You grew up part of your childhood anyways was spent in a home run by women during World War Two when the men fighting the war. So I think it was like your mother and your aunts her sisters. What were the warriors like for you? And how old were you during World War Two? Well, I was three when stilted nine when finished and it was a world, which is entirely in the hands of the women because the men that has gone away to fight. And I mean, I didn't realize at the time it's post that along post of to identify was the you know, how much women actually dumb then as in first World War when it was over. They've told to go away and do what normally do which is just look after the kids and do the cooking. Fortunately, they didn't. Did you grow up with us understanding that women could be strong when women could run things because they were known one child, but that realization was some put it in the way, I come from socioeconomic group, which if you didn't work you didn't eat so one of the things that I most value that was given to me by my family was a strong work ethic. And I really really do value them were you afraid of being bombed during the warriors, I contra member directly being afraid as child of being bombed. We had when the sirens went off. We went onto the Cup done dressed as little too up into down. And where we live was never actually had a bomb dropped on it. But we could see Liverpool just across the river. I can remember. Now, the great clouds of smoke that you saw because Liverpool. Was absolutely pasted by Jim and bomas. I remember when we roll issued with gas masks. I think it must have been my second sister who was still a baby, and they they had gas masks that sort of you put the baby in the mean, whereas we older children had gas masks window faces. But it was just part of what you did. I mean, I have I have no memory of being afraid. So you didn't think like, oh, I might die. Good heavens. No. The biggest thing was sweets. You endured. I have to say we did have not my side of the street. The other side of the street American troops billeted there and these guys when it was victory new day. We had a big street party. You know, people brought the tables up the tab Clugston, Chaz around these guys brought Cam of two Cam of two Cam of ice cream from the PX where they billeted we'd never seen ice cream. I mean, I didn't like the taste of it. I think most of Eton by the hills around the table, and they would send us cap packages for years after they'd come back to America. I mean, you really are the most amazing generous count people. Well, thank you for that generalization about all of us. Well, it was Pacific time. Remember that very well. If you're just joining us, my guest is Glenda Jackson. She's now starring on Broadway as King Lear in King Lear, so one of the productions you were in with the Royal Shakespeare Company was Murat Saad the the assassination of persecution of John Paul Maradas performed by the inmates of the asylum of Sharon tan under the direction of the marquees decide, and and this move to Broadway where I saw you in it in. I think nineteen sixty seven or sixty eight who remembers what year it wasn't. It was one of those. But I. Around that time. Yeah. I just loved it. And it was it was kind of a musical wasn't like a song and dance kind of musical. But there were there were songs in it. And people might remember that Judy Collins album in my life. She sang a medley of some of the sounds from Saad. I'm wondering what that production was like for. You was the most experimental thing you'd been in up to the owning brokers always experimental. It was amazing. I mean, you know, just greatest direction the world. What was shocking to us company? Was we had played that play in repertoire with the IRS. See the old rich in London to absolute silence was not a sound from the audience any of the performances until the end. We do I show here in Broadway. The first song got applause cries of uncool uncool the audience loft. I have to say overripe places with silence. No, the right places. And we as a company came of Saint toss south, what are we in? What are we doing here? And it was just amazing. It was really thrilling. Now, you had said, and we heard this earlier that you always get nervous before going on stage. And I'm wondering if that's changed with age in the sense that I know some people feel as they get older that they can take more chances and. Enjoy things more because I did play with the most marvelous. Actress cold Washburn is called Steve was the poet Stevie Smith, and she I think Monet came I think from theatrical family, she'd certainly appeared I think on a professional stage of very young age mean nine she had a very successful highly on the career. I mean, she was a marvelous marvelous access reputation in theater, his absolutely secure. She says only so for before the cutting went up. I sat chip has. And every performance she sat on that. So far, and she would say please God, let me die. Please. God, let me die and then curtain went up, and that she was firing who fronts. It doesn't get any less. In fact, I think the more you do the worse it gets because you realize. Desperately easy. It is to act really badly. Very very hard. It is to will. We need to take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us. My guest is Glenda Jackson. She's now starring on Broadway. Asking Lear in King Lear, we'll be right back. This is fresh air support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from better help better help offers licensed professional counselors, who specialize in issues such as depression stress, anxiety and more connect with your professional counselor in a safe and private online environments at your convenience, get help at your own time and your own pace schedule secure video or phone sessions plus chat and text with your therapist. Visit better help dot com slash fresh air to learn more and get ten percent off your first month. We're back with a new season of rough. Translation. Yeah. This time we are following people break the rule lying is part of the business. Opinion. The best revenge against ISIS is to be humane. A masseuse to pinch. Yeah. Yeah. Episodes every other Wednesday. Subscribe I wanna go back to something again from earlier in your career. And this is from Sunday Bloody Sunday film from the nineteen seventies. That was directed by John Schlesinger. And this film is famous in part because there's a gay relationship in it. And it's very early for a gay relationship in in the movies. So the film was kind of about a love triangle. You're young woman who's having a relationship with a guy who's an artist and that guy's in a relationship with an older man, who's a doctor who's played by Peter Finch. And so you all know about each other. But the guy the artists the young guy is kind of going back and forth between the other man is in a relationship with and with you. And at some point the guy in the middle is about to leave from London for trip to New York for artistic opportunities. You're not sure he's ever gonna. Come back. And this is the scene where you start to just be sorry about how things are turning out in your expressing, your kind of sadness, and your sense like this is just like never going to work. So here's my guest. Glenda Jackson with Murray. Head. Nothing's changed changed. Fitting in and making do and shutting up. I won't be here. When you get back. I can't come over. Don't ring. We've got to practice. Don't know what to say, Alex being careful not to ask you about Daniel Daniel, getting answers from you. Because you're here my mom, not making demands teen years and my office. I don't want to live like this, shall we? Try living together we try that. I don't want to lose you. You couldn't do it. Whenever there's any trouble. You always. I'm not angry with you. Because I love you Joe terms, and they were rotten to him. And I shouldn't have done it. My phone. Keep asking too much. Karen lot about someone is that too much people have some time each other too much. I've had this business. Anything is better than nothing times. When nothing has to be better than anything. Back on this which you won't. I think it has something to do with done. You. Hasn't. Listen interesting seeing because you're you're in a moment of sadness, and maybe weakness because you don't have control of what what he's going to do. And you know, the relationship is probably going to end, but you're speaking with with real strength, even as you saw. Yes. When she's not stupid. It was incented film script I've ever read. Macos work Joan was mouthfuls. But she has that great gift in way of not of no self delusion, one of the things that made this movie famous and one of the continues to be famous is because it's one of the first films that has, you know, a gay relationship within it and a gay kiss as well. So I'm wondering what that meant to you at the time of somebody in was considered a pretty groundbreaking film. Well, no, it wasn't at the time because the studios that made it I think John was making another midnight cowboy when that truly sword. They didn't know how to sell it. They didn't want to do with it. I mean, I remember I was in Venice picking up an award for something and sitting on the beach with my husband, and this guy came up and chatting, obviously Venice film festival. And he said that he. He was the PR mound for the studio and facilitate Bloody Sunday, and he was having great difficulty because the vast it can apparently this use the saying this film should not be seen. And of course, he said there is no homosexuality Italy. Well, they go so it's become I think now something of a cult. It is a very very good film, as I've said best film script I've ever read and Slesinger was just such a lovely film director. So I mean, you are so work oriented parliament was just like a more than full time job for you did with acting annot certainly doing Lear how how do you feel about the possibility of retirement? Well, if I don't get off to work, then I'll be retired and know. The good room. What do you think you would want to do with your time? Well, I like argh Ning, and I'm a grandma so I get grandma duty, which is an interesting experience. Is it different than being apparent absolute enjoying them, send them home? Well, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Glenda Jackson is now starring in a new Broadway. Production of King Lear in the role of Lear tomorrow on fresh air will talk about psychiatry search to understand the biological basis of mental illness. My guest will be Harvard professor and Harrington author of the new book mind fixers, but how that search lit new classes of drugs, but she says Farmaceutica companies are leaving the psychiatric field, and we're at a turning point in how we treat mental illness. A hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews produced an edited by EMI salad Phyllis Meyer. Sam brigger, Lauren. Crendall Heidi Simone. Theresa Madden moods. Atheist Challenor and Seth Kelly. I'm Terry gross.

King Lear Glenda Jackson King Lear Lear Fresh Air prime minister London Margaret Thatcher Terry gross England Tony Blair Shakespeare Berthel US Philip glass mayo clinic Ben Brantley Broadway Joe Elizabeth r King Lear
Culture Gabfest: Live From the High Line Edition

Slate's Culture Gabfest

59:33 min | 1 year ago

Culture Gabfest: Live From the High Line Edition

"The following podcast contains explicit language. Stephen McCaffrey, this is these slate culture, gabfest live on the Highline edition. Remember, when like ju people in New York City, new at the high line was you could pointed the building. And there were those weird legacy sockets and old man Metcalf. All right. On today's show, the feature film late night stars Mindy, Kaeling, a wannabe comedy writer and Emma. Thompson is a TV talk show legend can these two women worked together and triumph over the sexism, so endemic in their guy, bro working environment. Like Dennis Stevens did the film was also written by Kaeling and we'll be joined for the segment by slate zone in Google. And then Dr John was both a totally singular act of self creation and a child of the American weird. We discussed the career of true music legend died last week at the age of seventy seven for that segment. We're joined by slates Christmas lampy and finally, we discussed the during production of Shakespeare's, harrowingly, dark masterpiece King Lear, which was up at the court theater. I think it's in the process of closing right now. It stars start the legendary English actress blended. Jackson as Lear, and that's only one of the many, very bold choices on the part of its director Sam gold. I would like to introduce your filling in for Julia. Those are big shoes. They are they are there large. I hope I can tell them look a little nervous kind of raccoon rings around your eyes up on that. All right. This is Isaac Butler very slate. The very sleet, adjacent Isaac Butler. I love it is, is a writer theater director. He's host of the lend MIR ears podcast co author with Dan Coats of the world. Only spins forward oral history of the angels in America play. And he's writing a history of method acting which I'm very eagerly anticipating anticipating talking about with them in the future. Give it up for Isaac Butler. And Dana Stevens. Any attempt to slag on data boomerang. So fucking hard right into my, the bridge of my nose. And you'd think I'd learn, but I never will you're writing a book on Buster Keaton deed. I'm very excited to see that. I think the us are going to talk about acting in method acting on some show in the near future. I think before we start off we're going to get a message from Julia Turner, a prerecorded message house sleep day. Am very sorry, that I cannot be they're also would just like to correct the impression left by my co hosts after last week's show, my medical calamity was merely badly sprained ankle. I am on the demand in very sorry not to be there. Celebrating this amazing slate fest with you. All I hope you have a great show, sorry to take you out of our live show, but we are time travelling back into the slate studio for a quick word from our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by plug into the present a campaign raising awareness about electric vehicles, the future of driving is here. It's easier than ever to drive electric with variety of models to choose from more and more with ranges of over two hundred miles per charge electric vehicles can take you just about anywhere. You want to go. Learn more about electric vehicles at plug into the present dot com. I don't think I have any other businesses before inviting Inga gang up on stage to talk about late night and go come on up. She, of course, is the staff culture writer at slate dot com. All right late night. Katherine Newbury is the longtime host of a late night, talk show. In the Carson Letterman Kimmel mold? This is the woman who worked our way up through the brutally sexist ranks of comedy and network TV. And yet, curiously she has or maybe not so curiously she has an all male writing staff when ratings begin to tank or show as threatened with cancellation in a bid more for relevance than for fairness. She blindly hires the first woman to walk through the door who just happens to be. Molly Patel, a super Ernest super eager innocent a comedy nerd, whose day job is in a chemical plant from this premise, flew to deeply interrelated storylines can Newbury played by Emma Thompson saver show by rediscovering our own authentic voice buried beneath decades of TV mugging, and pandering and Ken Patel, played by Mindy Kaeling overcome her status as a condescending, diversity, higher and make it this is so fuck. Long winded. Oh my God. There's a lot of fucking words on the script and make it in the Darwin boys club of a late night writer's room. I got to the end, why don't we listen to glimp- if I may just want to say it is such an honor to meet you miss Newbury. I'm Chris Reynolds. My name is Eugene Mancuso. And when my parents got divorced, this show. Any of them? All. Oh, well, Tom, I'm Tom, I, I read the monologue actually, the youngest monologue writer history show. I'm not going to remember any of this. What we're gonna do. I'm you'll one two three. Four I Catherine. Oh, thank God has your painting. She's twenty seven her baby's doing well. She's started preschool. She's never mind. I did want to know anyone else shave you'll five six seven that's what I'm going to call you from now on. It's just easier or we allowed to call each other by our own name. Just learn the numbers, I mean to can one, and I switch. I'm just I'm the most senior writer. I'll take seven seven seven. Okay. Can we get into it now? And see if we can salvage anything taping probably self explanatory, but to set it up a little bit Newbury has not been in her own writer's room for a couple of decades finally forced to go in there and make make some hay, she doesn't want to bother learning the names of anyone on the staff. So she just assigns them numbers in good. Welcome back to the show. It's great to have you. Hi. Hello. Hello. So in it's been said about this movie that it's the story of two women at different ends of the show biz ladder, one at the very beginning. Bottom rung, ish one top rung ish. And then the drama kind of comes out of weather. What's best, most true good strong promising about both of them both as human beings and women will link up together and overcome this boys club. What do you make this movie? I really liked it. I think that the show the show like within the movie doesn't actually make sense, Catherine is this, like very Hoti very high minded person who wants like Doris Kerns Goodwin on, like NBC, or whatever that part is not believable at all, I guess, neither is the part where there was a female network hosts for thirty years. But I think like the sort of like romantic, like a platonic relationship clearly, between character and the killings character. But it's a largely structure like a rom com where like one of them sort of has to, like rue the other with the qualities that like the other one doesn't have. And they thought that part was perfect. And I think it really pointed out to me, how much we don't have these mentorship wrong cons, especially when the involve women, and I would really like to see more because everybody knows completely botched the ending of the devil worst Prada. And I'm really glad we got over. I should've said belong before this, that the movie was written by Mindy. Kaeling. And it's directed by Nisha an entre. Dana. There's a lot to admire about the politics of the movie and the heart of the movie is in the absolutely right place. How does it function as a movie? I mean, I found it a bouncy zippy extremely fun experience to sit through as Inca says, you have to suspend a lot of disbelief to, to believe the universe of this movie takes place in. Right. That since the early nineties, there's been this incredibly successful female, late late-night host British who likes to have on doors. Corns Kerns Goodwin is very high falutin and snobby. So that's already unbelievable. That she would still have show and that she's she seems to occupy this rung of fame that doesn't really exist anymore if it ever did. Right. So you have to accept that sexism has been radicalized in this universe to that degree. But it has not been radically to the degree that she has an all-white all-male white writer's room, which to me in twenty nine thousand nine actually seems almost too extreme. I almost wish that there had been, for example, a white woman in, in the writer's room and that there had been some question about to what degree she has to internalize the. Sexism of her male colleagues in order to contribute, there might have been some more complex things to explore besides all white, all male, seemingly all straight. There's one guy who might be gay, but it's just it's a very square room into which, you know, this young woman of color, who also, we haven't mentioned this has no experience. Appears. Right. She her previous experiences, essentially, she works in a chemical plant in Pennsylvania, but she's a comedy nerd, and she hosts once in a while sort of amateur fundraiser comedy nights, which we see her do at one point. And again that just suspends disbelief so far that we're in a universe where there wouldn't be any other women to compete for that job. I mean, I guess the joke of the movie is sort of that. They're so desperate to hire a woman that they just hire the first one that walks in the door. But yeah, you have to accept a lot to get to the point where you start caring about these characters. But what sells it is many Keighley's writing really, really. Excellent. Just very funny. Very mean not at all sort of Rura, bad ass girls. Right. I mean, there's many moments where she actually sits up that trope the idea that I'm girl, and I'm gonna kick ass. And it kind of gets. She gets basically a sock in the face from, from the universe for having such a vain hope. And they think one of the things movie that's really well. Is that a lot of people are going to come into this movie with sort of like all of this language about, like social Justice and privilege and all of that stuff? And even though the movie really wants to take these power imbalances seriously, though, it same power dynamics that have prevented people like indicates character from entering these rooms at the same time Mindy, indicating has sort of like a weird relationship with a lot of these issues. And so she also has like her character be made fun of when the she said something like oh, like I'm being crushed by the iron festive white privilege. And that is a line, where you're supposed to laugh at the character, even though that, you know that she is alternately, correct. And so I think that sort of like jabbing at like the people who want to complain but not do the work. I think it's number one, very indicating number two sort, of, like prevents the movie from being being this like boring dissertation about, like why? There are no woman, and people of color in writers rooms. Yeah. I'll let you talk, but I have one, one follow up on the sorry talking for you. White men of said. But I was just gonna say the two things that make the movie work. The first one said Mindy Keighley's writing is really sharp in the ways that you just pointed out, it avoids the traps that you think it might fall into, for example, all the guys in the white male. Right. Writer's room aren't villains. You know, they they are complex characters to who come to different realizations over the course of the movie and sort of struggle with what it means to have this woman in the writer's room. But, but the second big thing that makes this movie work is Emma. Thompson is just incredible. I mean imams and his already set the bar very high. Right. Everyone loves her. She's been tastic and every role, but she's never played a role quite like this. It's a little bit toward the Miranda, priestly side. The Meryl Streep character endeavours Prada, but not as Carello DeVille, like, you know, she's from the beginning, much more nuanced. And she's someone who you believe simultaneously that she's completely passionate about her show and wants to defend it all costs, and that she's gotten kind of lazy and complacent and is leaning on a writer's room writing the same stale jokes. And that's a complex thing to believe. About a character you just met. But it makes complete sense, and she really builds that character from the inside out, this is good opportunity to bring an Isaac. I mean that was exactly where my capacity to suspend disbelief flagged. I is she this high strung perfectionist with sort of high brow tastes? Or is she this lazy phone it in laurel resting? You know, I Khan who doesn't things I can think of many hosts who are like people at that level of fame who have those two those two veins at once. I don't notice did that. Did that believable? I guess I feel like Emma Thompson has been so great for so long that we take for granted how brilliant she is everything. And this is a movie that doesn't work if you put literally any other actor even any other really good actor in that role because she has to sell these to sort of opposite things at the same time. It's a person who's in a public image, an image of themselves as a perfectionist, but is actually reached the sort of coasting place. And she has to establish that extremely quickly. I mean the movies under two hours long. So it has to sort of get you on that page very fast. And you know, like I like when I was a kid. You like the pinnacle of acting for me were those four movies. She did with Kenneth Brana, right. Henry the fifth dead again. Peter's friends and much ado about nothing, and that she is still this many years later, like, knocking it out of the park is really impressive. It's actually, I think I was thinking about this a lot that role is really hard and you have to do a lot of hairpin tonal shifts that she gets really, well, if I remember correctly Thompson, actually started in the Cambridge footlights the same sketch comedy group. Monty python came out of and, you know, you can tell that she has comedy experience. She sells a lot of jokes that I think, you know, not every actor could sell just was like, really think she makes the movie with that role but it's also the kind of role because she's serving the text. It's a summer comedy, very charming. It's, it's frothy on a lot of ways where you that acting doesn't always get, as lauded as should. I think it's an Oscar worthy performance to me. It's not the kind of movie that would get in the Oscar conversation, it's too early in the year. It's a comedy about women, but she deserves one. I think one thing I also on the add is that I feel like Emma Thompson for a very long time has been pegged, as like the ugly woman, especially if you take a movie like sensibility or nanny McPhee, or just like so many range of, like for most of her career she has been sort of pegged, as a matron, and I think one thing I love about this movie. Is that it really refashioned her into this fashion icon, which you would not expect? She has this, like platinum David Lynch, pompadour. She has these giant platform sneakers her bolaise IRS are to fucking die for, and I think one of the things that. So this role was sort of written by Cailing, four Emma Thompson specifically, and I love that she has also given Emma Thompson this space to visually remake herself. I really don't think that like aside from, maybe like the red carpet because Thomson hates to high heels and has been on, like a years long campaign against them that, like people really know how much who loves fashion sneakers. And the fact that this movie finally gives everyone the chance to dislike revel in her very specific fashion, thins, please go watch this movie. Wait I have to add that, especially because she just wore white sneakers to her knighthood ceremony and was much carnage England for that. Yeah. She's now Dame. Right. Isn't that what you would call her Dame, Emma Thompson? So I kept thinking during watching the watching this movie, you know, hey, late night, nineteen Ninety-two is calling it wants its movie back. It takes place in this kind of pre two thousand eight even pre millennium sensibility, even though it, obviously is contemporary. But I'll tell you what I loved about that, is that it's an actually movie about an innocent. I mean when you think about her. What makes character killings character distinctive is its earnestness eagerness enthusiasm. And it just has this kind of wide eyed, kind of urban Aaj anew character as if the person has an already gone sour with irony from living in New York City for twenty or thirty green because I think what Mindy killing does is give you this on your new, and then basically she goes through all of this sort of tropes of that onto near where for example, Emma, Thompson's character. Oh, whether you think is wrong with the show on her. I say of work, clearly, if you are person in real life, you say nothing. And instead, she goes on this, like big tear about, like everything she thinks it's wrong, what the show and again, you have Mindy Kaeling making fun of like the naievety of that Andrzej new. And I think that was for me like that rewriting of that onto new role and sort of like poking at. How poking out pointing out how silly that character is one of my favorite things about absolutely? But, but what she didn't do is create a character who has this acidic sort of corrosive cynical wit that people at the chemical plant, just don't get. And then when she finally is transplanted into a late night, writer's room, she's allowed to sort of bloom in this. Cynical way, saying that people who work at chemical plants can only have a civic with Steven sorry. That was really bad, too. All right. Well, we have to rabbit here, but the movie is late night. Starring Mindy Kaeling written by her as well. We've been joined by in gang of slate. Thanks for coming on the show. See you soon. Ride for our next segment. We have a treat we have Christmas lampien in the house. Chris come on up. Hey, what's up high line? He was born mouth, John rybak in New Orleans, true story through his mother's modeling connection. He was the baby on the ivory soap ad for a spell. Did you know I don't think I didn't? I know something that Chris me doesn't know remarkable moment. There's plenty thanks to his families. Love of music and his grandfather's background in. Yes, I hope we talk about it minstrel. He became a musician. I, he mastered blues guitar. But after getting shot in his ring finger, every piece of the story is so improbable it's amazing. He gets shot in his ring finger, and he's able to transfer all it as a men's musical gifts to new instrument as one does to the piano. He became a maestro in the very New Orleans tradition of jelly, roll Morton, and professor long hair. After as he played his assessing musician with everyone from Zappa to sunny and share came a dope paddocks, or two years in prison for dealing Andranik brothel. And then out of the crazy stew of his life and out of his growing fascination with voodoo voodoo. He created an alter ego, Dr John Crowe. Yeah, I'd say Dr John Crowe the night tripper and in nineteen. Sixty eight comes out with the album, Gregory. And Chris, let's begin there, why don't we pick attractive? Listen to why don't we play let's? Well, let's play Gree-greek Gumbo. Ya ya, which is the first track on the first album of macro ask Dr John, right? He's recorded before this. But this is debut album as Dr John and it's the first track. And hopefully, we can hear the sort of statement of purpose right from the opening lyric. Gol me. Joan. Trimble. God my. Hang. Driven. Back down the bag. Okay. You get a free lifetime slate plus plus membership. If you come up here and karaoke that. In Dr John voice. Which I mean where do you begin with this? I've rarely when I caught onto what Gregory was, which I'll admit I only learned about a couple of I don't know fifteen twenty years ago when Rolling Stone put out one of its five hundred album lists. They expanded their list and this Adam placed in the top one fifty I mean, alongside some pretty serious albums by everybody from BB king, Chuck Berry. And I'm like Greek re really and I played it and it's amazing. And the thing that's amazing about it is that you rarely see an artist inventor persona on the first track of his first album, and it sticks. You know, it's kind of like it came out, fully formed, and Steve's point by this time, you know, as Mak rempac, and he recorded under that name. He's already released singles. He's played with professor long hair. He's played sessions with everybody from. I don't know Phil spector too, you know. Sony sunny. Right. Well Allan Tucson. And he's steeped in that New Orleans world. And he comes by at very, honestly, but then he decides that he's just again, having already reinvented himself from a Qatari to a pianist, he then reinvents his name, and it sticks almost immediately. You know, Dr John the night tripper, and this whole album Gree-greek, if you if you haven't listened to it, it's really amazing. It's kind of like a complete statement. It's got this New Orleans funk. It's got afrobeat in it. It's got voodoo in it. It's got voodoo lyrics in it, and it's got some of his most acclaimed songs. In fact, another one, we should probably play because I think it's his most covered song as the last track on the album, I walk on gilded splinters in its original version. It's about seven minutes long, so pick a spot. But it's really amazing. And. They can do. Splinter cane of the thing. That. I heard I walk on gilded splinters when I was reviewing of all people Paul Weller album in the nineties, and he turned that baritone sax line into tar line, and it kind of always works. It's hypnotic and Dr John was one of those people like, I don't know, James Brown or whatever who had like an innate musical sense, so that even if he wasn't the one playing it, he knew what the record needed to sound. Like he he knew the atmosphere, he knew how to arrange as well as play, so. Yeah, Chris funny. Here's why avoided Dr John up until about forty eight hours ago right place. Wrong time. We should probably play that because it's his one hit. He had one huge I it's not a song I respond to at all. And then I put on Gree-greek a couple days ago. This music is talking. Anyway. Well, why don't we listen to right place, wrong time, and then I want to bring it Isaac and. Around. Kintu. Definitely. As did I catch you making a face when I said, I didn't like that's a little bit. I don't know. I just find like there's some Dr John tracks that aren't that are better than others often, it's actually due to the production. I find less than the actual songwriting or playing, but I just feel like if there's ever a doctor Johnson playing you're going to have a good time like it's just it's going to be that's why that's why I didn't respond to it. I guess. There's just something about the way he blended those different strands of the New Orleans sound into this really heady mix that just really works. And also helps that, that track the backing band, is the meters. It's the meters and on that album and I'm not sure if he's playing on this track. It's Alan Tucson himself. Also playing on that. So it says New Orleans as it gets, and yet it's his crossover hit. It's a top ten hit in the summer of nineteen Seventy-three, by the way, those of you who've seen the movie dazed, and confused. It's the song that's playing when Wiley Wiggins walks into the pinball, arcade. It's got this great atmosphere to it. It's his only top forty hit. So it's like his one crossover moment, but it's very authentic. Jack Hamilton wrote, the I guess you could call it obituary for us at slate. And he had this great line in which he said in the twenty first century almost any casual music fan knows who Dr John is, but far fewer could probably name more than. One or two of his actual works, and that may sound like it's damning with faint praise. But his point is that, you know, the persona you could probably name right place wrong time, but, you know, the persona, you know, the voice, you know the style. He's one of those guys like Tom waits or Neil young where like the voice itself is probably trademark -able and. Imitate. -able. Hurt him as a special musician the number of landmark I mean was he's plays? Rickie Lee Jones's first album, he plays on exile main street. I mean, the number of lamb, Margaret leads that you can hear him play on. Even if you never hear his voice is really, really incredible. Yeah. Dana. Why do I feel as though you and your lifetime have done something dark? And I'm bidding with Dr John playing in the background. This'll be good. You feel so much lighter after you say it. Go ahead and say it's okay. I know you want to alleviate actually does relate to the thing that I want to say about Dr John, though it's not autobiographical documentary darn it, which is that it really strikes me lyrically to the extent that you can kind of make out the lyrics in this. Verbal soup of what the Greek reality is that he's got a lot of songs that are about music itself. Right. I think the term second line, right? The New Orleans music group second-line comes in, in the first or second song in this in the album, it's mentioned, I think, in that very first song, this sort of introduction of the character that you mentioned. He also says something about it's just a great kind of soul singer type thing like now I'm gonna give you the medicine. He names himself as a doctor because he's about to treat the audience with the medicine of his song that will somehow cure all of their ills, which made me think, among others, longs of Marvin Gaye sexual healing. Right. The idea of music is medicine or. And so, so that's that was not even a really very smart thing to say, but there's just voodoo and darkness. And magic really evident everywhere in this music. It's explicitly referenced in the lyrics, and it's you know, it's obviously bubbling up through the musical style as well. And he took his role as an ambassador to New Orleans music seriously. You know, he's one of those people like professor longhair like Alan Tucson like the meters like that's domino, who the heritage as you said Dana, it was very self referential. It's kind of, like he saw his role as representing for New Orleans when Hurricane Katrina happened in the mid 'oughts. He appeared on any several benefits benefit albums, he, he did covers and collaborations to raise money for the repair of the city. So. So he came up through New Orleans and played with all the greats. And he kind of that, that was text and subtext of all of his work, and that goes right through to the end one other album. I thought we should play a song or two from is he didn't album twenty twelve this was actually the album where I got to see him live. I'm glad I got to see him live before we lost him in twenty twelve. We didn't album with Dan Auerbach of the black keys call lockdown, which made lots of top ten lists that you're, it's an excellent album, and it's funny because you can definitely hear the influence of the guy from the black keys on it. And yet, it's still absolutely sounds like Dr John album. It's still got that spooky voodoo sound it's, it's got the afrobeat that was sort of an obsession of his like. You know, like the tar, in fact, if we could play a song, I think there's a truck old age, which I really like that's got a phenomenal guitar part on it. Down. That he'd gotten. So like you can hear voices gotten gravelly or he's older. But like the sound is still fundamentally his, and I remember reading review in this album came out, where everybody said, the critic said, you know, the worry was the Dan Auerbach was going to sort of take, Dr John and try to turn him into some version of the black keys, and, in fact, it was Dan Auerbach, who had to keep up with Dr John because the album stills has all of his obsessions, all of his sonic, trademarks from the Qatar parts, which are probably being played by Dan Auerbach, yet, sound like they could have come off of Gregory. You know, three plus decades before he, he had, he had a real signature, right to the end that dense, dense texture of that, maybe think of another great line from Jack Hamilton's obituary, which is something that Dr John said, which was that Phil spector wanted to get that wall of sound sound without hiring symphony orchestras? He should've just tired six musicians from New Orleans. And that's pretty much. What was really scornful about it to what is it with Phil spector these thirty musicians? And he's got all these duplicate horns and everything, like he could have hired six guys from New Orleans to get the same sound this wall of sound whatever we could have done that we have to wrap soon. But I have a small question for Isaac because you're acting scholar. And you watch trae Dr John was an actor onto may played a character that I don't know. But I want to hear you talk about it. And there was a wonderful thread from David Simon the night, the news of his death broke where David Simon talked about what it was like to write dialogue for Dr John's doctors chew, great television appearances in which he plays himself. One is on Bravo's top chef in the season that is set in New Orleans. He comes into judge a quick fire competition and the running joke of the segment is that literally no one, onset can understand a thing that he says. Right. And so he just says this stuff and they're like she'll pan the luxury you'll be like, how would you what would you advise them in cooking their Gumbo or whatever? And then just syllables come out. Clearly made sense to him and everyone's just like and then the Tremaine thing is he plays himself on her may actually when we get to endorsements. Talk about that plot a little bit because it's connected to one of the things I'm endorsing and there's a great threat that, that Dana pointed us to about David Simon trying to write for doctor John is playing himself. So David Simon's hanging out with him. And Dr John is constantly doing these Larry's transformations of words by just adding extra syllables to them. And it's very Shakespearian actually confused, Mente Xinyang, exactly. I mean it's almost like dog very much ado about nothing or something. Right. And so and so. David Simon writes them dialogue, using words that Dr John is coined. And then Dr John in delivering the dialogue extends them by even more syllables. And he says something to David Simon like trying to write like me, it's just going to be a tragic mess. Right. And then base things like say whatever you want, and he kind of invents his own dialogue from there. Okay. I don't think we can exit. I mean, we're not going to get any details at Dan is dark, satanic grad school nights, apparently before the end of this segment, so apologies for that. But I don't think we can exit without talking a little bit about this is the persona that he invented. He assumed he would occasionally drop, and then reassume he in, as I understand it in the opening lines of his own auto-biography credits, impart this confection to his maternal grandfather, who did black phase. I mean, was Dr John, Chris, or or is a Gable occupies them. Such an original and strange, and kind of nebulous racial space, that he can get away with the appropriations that he made to me. I think part of it. I don't know. You're feeling about this, Chris, but his mentor was professor longhair and professor longhair bestowed legitimacy upon him that then his own talent enlarged from there. But I think if he had not been really a student of the one of the preeminent living black pianists in New Orleans that wouldn't have happened that sort of my feeling about it. And as you said, in your introduction Steve, like the guy came out came out of that Milia honestly like he was a hustler. He I mean he came up through the New Orleans scene and the session musicians and you know. Dealing dirt. And you know. He was around that scene long enough and came up through it. And you know, played with enough people that I think people regarded him as a an honest element a signature element of that sound and. The fact that people like Alan Tucson and the meters played on some of his signature seventies albums. I think tells you all you need to know that as far as the core figures of New Orleans rhythm and blues were concerned, he was, you know, right, alongside of them. I accept that answer. Okay. Chris, always is just an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Chris Matthews, the host of the hip rate podcast, which is fucking amazing should check it out. Thanks. Thanks, everybody. The division of kingdom the bastard dream of a sun. The crazed renunciation of your one faithfully faithfully loving child just another day. It's late. Terrible joe. Sorry, I couldn't help myself the question who deserves what haunts every line of the play King Lear that drama begins with the debatable choice. Followed by a senseless one Lear divides up his own kingdom and passes it on to his heirs while he's still alive, then he demands a public display of affection, from those would be airs, which rightly quite rightly his one true trial is one virtuous child his daughter, cordelia, refuses to provide what unfolds next Shakespeare's arguably dark, harrowing graduating, I think it is, I'd say that rivals Dana Stevens grad school nights. Okay. Let's, let's listen to a clip. Yes to set this clip up, real quick. This is from those King Lear stands out there. This is from act, three scene force. This is Lear is about Lear's been caught in the storm with his fool, and his, his, his, his sort of body, man can't and they're going into this hovel, and he lets the it's the first time he recognizes anyone else's pain in the show. He lets the other people go in first, and then he delivers this speech about how he is neglected the, the impoverished, the wretched of the earth during his reign and it's important, although I'm saying he that, of course, you will hear Glenda Jackson playing king. We are in this segment. Let's listen. By helping of this in this. Would y'all houses had sites windows? Ryan defense bean from seasons. Which. Palm. Those two free. What actions free? Okay. Now, I think we can reveal to the people listening at home that that's actually Isaac Butler doing. Glenda. Jackson doing. We're that's pretty impressive. Give it up for Isaac. Great. Someone actually wrote into the show and say, hey it when it's alive show all the dumb jokes. You said something. Interesting to me when we went and saw the play together, however, extravagant it gets in its language, or intentionally tangled if its plotting at its heart Lear is as simple folk tale. It was inherited by Shakespeare, it'd been around for hundreds of years, but he took it and did something completely unexpected. It was a familiar story to his audience and he did something completely unexpected. What did you do? And why do you think he did it so King Lear? I mean you can feel the in the plot setup that it's a folk tale because it's like the king has three daughters thing split in three. There's the wicked older sisters and the virtuous younger feels almost like Grimm fairy tale. And it was a legend that have been around for a very long time and I keep saying this, if it's not quite right. But the story is ancient Lear is like not quite contemporaneous with the Hebrew patriarchs but he's not that far after, but they're actually an play called the history of King Lear. A few years earlier in Shakespeare's. He was want to do like I will take that and he did two things to it. He added the subplot with Edgar and Edmund the brothers. You know, come to war over their own father's estate. Andy changed the ending the original audience of Lear would have expected cordelia, and Lear and the king of France to win the battle and be restored to the throne and rule together. And so if you have to imagine you're the original audience going to see this new version of King Lear, and then instead everyone dies. I mean, one of the highest body counts other than Titus andronicus, I think its highest body got mean the very end of the play. They're like someone has to be king Kent, what king, I'd rather. Go kill myself. Thanks. I mean, that's the level of bleakness that the play goes to. But if you were in its original audience, you would have expected, a happy, you know. End of Cinderella happen. I mean arguably the most agonizing scene, and all of I mean, there are many juice run. But that scene, where Lear realizes this. Scope of what he's done, and his he realizes the ultimate fidelity of cordelia. And the fact that he's lost her. Never never never never never. Right. The I am BIC pentameter scanning repetition of never is just at the absolute. Apex of pain in Shakespeare, people have speculated why he may have ended the play like that. Do you have any thought? I mean, part of me thinks the gunpowder plot is why the play ends that way relieve on before he's writing it. I mean, that's sort of I mean, there's a weird thing where it's like their whole government was almost blown up like their whole world, almost ended. And I think there's a way in which Shakespeare's reckoning with that in the Scottish play and Shakespeare's reckoning with that here. But I mean like we don't have as diary. So we, we, of course, I do think that there's a way in which he takes the premise of the story more seriously than the people who have transmitted that story over the years and he thinks like this can't end. Well, you can't have a transition of power that works this way, and intersex really directly at least for me and we talked about this on the your ears a bit that this is a play. That's to me. This is deeply suspicious of power that. Power is a form of madness and the more power, you have the matter you become the England of Lear. There are no institutions other than the monarchy. There is. Nothing mediating for you. Game of thrones fans. This will sound very familiar, there's nothing mediating, the ruler's power, and so power madness or the same thing. And in fact, this production, one of the smart things that Sam production does. I think it tracks this, the cordelia that God, Earl in Regan make have a pretty rational case that they're making like dad's acting crazy. He banished Kent, he banished cordelia. He's wandering around with one hundred nights. We gotta do something about this. But then, as soon as they get power, they go nuts in a very abrupt way that doesn't totally make sense to our post enlightenment modern selves. And so I actually that was one thing that I really, really liked about there were things I didn't like what we're doctor. But that was one thing. I really let's get into that a little bit Dana. We saw this production over at the court theater directed by Sam gold. We'd previous previously. On the show disgust, his production of hamlet off Broadway, starring Oscar Isaac, which I if I'm remember Greg, we all regarded as something of a triumph, I loved, it is the best hand that I've ever seen. I know Isaac had problems with. But I went into this so excited because I thought that was an amazing hamlet and you came out. I mean it has it has incredible things. One of them, I think is blended Jackson's performance. But even as you hear that click with her delivering the speech on the heath, what you hear in the background string, quartet playing Philip glass score that was composed originally for this play. It's cool to have a string quartet onstage playing music during a show, but they were playing every minute of the show. I was not sure what motivated the music coming in and out that was choice that did not make an enormous amount of sense. Let me just give the audience a list of some of the because this is this is your aunt choices strong choice after strong strong choice. So a woman is Lear the same actress plays both cordelia and the fool. I really want to hear you talk about that. That's not a traditional. Pairing, but it happens from time to time. Does there's a there's a yes, it does have time to find the cordelia and the fool or play by the same actor because they have no scenes together because liras this line at the end where he says. There's a partner like people start dying off stage because there's so many deaths. Oh, poor fools hanged, and you don't know if he's talking about that, literally, the fool has been hanged offstage Irvy's talking about cordelia, who is in his arms, and so sometimes directors double them. So it's like well Shakespeare likes doing two things at once and so we're doing things at once. There's also this idea that, that may have been how it was originally done. Which is like if you know how those plays would have been cast is nonsensical. It's like we we're pretty sure we know we played the fool it was a middle aged guy. Middle aged people men did not play women and shakes replace. It would have been totally unusual. They had let me also the set is very hits you in the face as soon as you see it. It's sort of a gold cube. It's very exciting is very Trumpian. It's for science dictator. Chic, it's, it's meant to be vulgar in ways that you associate with misused power and over the course of the play, this is important this very. As you say, Trumpy gilded palace, that it starts out in slowly falls apart. So that, by the end, when everybody's killing themselves and disaster has struck those same gilded pieces of furniture lying broken all over the stage. I mean it was visually effective, but I don't understand what that set was supposed to mean and it was such a strong set. It was the absolute opposite of some sort of theater in the round where there's one broom in one book or something. It was like stuff everywhere. Candles with actual flame burning in the right like real wind being drunk or maybe it was but whatever liquid being thrown around in bottles, it was very just densely packed with stuff. And I wonder what do you think that supposed to mean? And convey, our do think the dictator, chic. Says something about I mean, there's a couple moments in the first half that feel almost like satire where the aristocrats are going to go and get some tea while these terrible a banishment is happening. Into me. I mean, I've spent a lot of time with Lear over the last year, the third Lear, I've seen the last twelve months, I read it many times the podcast we did the podcast about it. And so I do have some, some set ideas about Lear, and one of them is that it does not take place in a society. There isn't really a society. Do you know what I mean? Like there isn't social odds aren't institutions. It is, you know, and so there is a weird way in which that setting. Clashes with actually politically, and it is a deeply political play. What is going on in the play, which is this world where there are no checks and balances weird way in which the sort of fashionable everyone's in suits. It's one of those kind of things. Goes against what I think is going on in the play. But I do think it's about sort of contemporary power, the gaudiness of it, the inhumanity of it the way we'll sip our wine while horrible things are going on in Guantanamo. So just quickly you're saying it's gold's interpretation in this production. This is a world without a society. That's inherent in the play. I think I think this is maybe a conservative thing to small, c conservative thing to say, but I believe that inherent in the play is, is that there is not a real there isn't a real society. How we that's what I thought you were saying, which makes me wanna follow up with Isaac either one, but that, that would then make somewhat explicable somewhat trae Joyce's of the director, which result alternately, I'd like to hear few cre- in a play in which each character appears to be a different production of the play. Right. The kind of a social or anti-society aspect of Isaac is saying, intrinsic and the. Place. Certainly is on display in the production. Everyone seems to be phoning in from to me phoning in from a different university. I'm not sure that, that's a deliberate choice, rather than just a jumbled series of choices that don't quite make sense to get all three of the daughters have different accents. And I found that a very strange choice. I mean maybe they're just using their home accents from their own country. But that also gives it an odd. I don't know. I don't I actually don't know what's going on with the way this movie. Let me this play was directed. There's too many different kinds of performances. And even though there's that golden said, there's not any sense of the people there's, it's not really about income inequality or the people that don't live like that. And in fact, the Anthony sure one that was a bam year ago from the starts with the people. It's taken from a Soviet film, but that image, but it starts with the people onstage, the people of Britain, a waiting to hear about the succession because their lives are going to be forever changed who's in charge and instead, this is like firmly in the in the one percent. Right. They all have to go into. Guys in rags to learn about the other experience. I felt like this was a production. Where there were just an enormous number of choices going on, and not all of them have been quite filtered out, yet, by the time it opened. And some of them I thought were extremely strong and some of them weren't the one that I thought was really. The one that I thought worked the best had to actually do with. Sorry. I'm looking at up here right here. I apologize the one that I thought worked best was actually having to do with the actor Russell Harvard who plays Cornwall and so- Cornwall, the actor place Cornwall is death. And he has he has a kind of body man on stage within played by Michael Arden, who does live sign language interpretation of the play to him. And then he signs his lines. And ardent says them and then in the scene of Gloucester's blinding, one of Cornwall, servants turns against him and says, no Lord, don't do this, essentially. And it's that servant and I think I literally turn to you, it was like that's so smart. Because it deepens that character like four lines and then dies in the original play, and it was this great setup and payoff that you don't see coming. And it was just like it makes you hear and watch the play in a different way, especially since it soon. He says, no Lord don't do this. They have the rest of the argument sign language, and it's not translated into that was an example of a choice that I thought worked really well. But then there were others, the string quartet being one of them that I was sort of like okay, well, it was the Sam gold production of king. Lear was at the court theater start going to. And there's well by the time this podcast is out, but you you in the audience can still run out run out onto them, there will be. All right. Moving on. All right now is the moment in our podcast where we endorse day. Not. I wish I could do I could do it in a doctor, John boys. And you said it's your delivery, that's getting applauded and not me. All right. I'm gonna just continue the doctor conversation by way of leading into the dance party that Christmas MP is about to spin for us here on the high line. Dr John song that we didn't get to probably among aficionados is considered a very mainstream. I don't know. It was it was a Grammy winning duet that he performed with Ricky. Jones does anybody know this of, of an old twenty song making whippy and it was on an album called innocent, a mental mood from nineteen eighty nine it one, I believe the best vocal duet. Grammy from that year. Do we have it? Let's hear a little bit. Swing. Fame. They would the rain. This. What's so sweet about that is there obviously having a great time. Recording. It together. It's a real conversation between them since they both have that kind of louche world-weary, we've been through some shit kind of persona. They just they really bows, well of each other, and that song. And it's just a classic standard so making whippy off into cinema mood. As to endorsements. My doctor John related one is actually also Mitra may related one, which is so intra may, he's playing himself recording an album and as a as a as a session musician, playing on the which forms the ark of one of the characters over kind of two seasons of the show and that album is a real album. Actually that character is based on two, it's Donald Harrison junior with Dr John's Indian blues, and Donald Harrison junior is the son of Donald Harrison, senior is a really important person in the kind of mardi gras Indian and New Orleans jazz world. And don't Harrison juniors trained to the Berkeley school of music. And this is the album where he sort of brings his modern jazz sensibility, and the New Orleans sound together the album features. Mardi gras Indian calls and shouts from his father features piano. Amazing piano work from doctor, John and it's just every every track on it as, as and I think, I forget, which is an Indian read is that the one guy. Okay. So we're, we're gonna listen to a little bit of India. It also has a great version of. Professor longhair is a big chief, which is the song that lily Allen sampled on her first big single, too. It's, it's a it's a masterpiece. I also want to recommend a book, real quick, which I think Dana, especially we get a kick out of, which is a book by a woman named sulk of your tell it's called the kindness of strangers, actually a memoir from the mid century, New York review of books just reissued sulk of your tell no one knows who she is today. But she was Greta Garbo's screenwriter, like best friend, and she wrote many of Garbo's films. But before that she was in a stage actress Jewish stage actress from Poland who's born in the late nineteenth century, and basically, like if there was a circle of European or American intelligence has she moved in it over the course of her life through her theater career. So she worked with max Reinhardt. She was in. She was in the Weimar Republic, it's a stage actor new all of those people escaped to Hollywood. When the Nazis came to power, her house was a salon for all of the refugees, and ex patriots who built Holly. It's that whole kind of seeing that auto Friedrich talks about in his book city of nets. If anyone's read that so that kind of like all those folks who came out then just camp out in her living room. And so, it's this remarkable story of her weaving through all of these different scenes, transforming from young actress to accomplish screenwriter and writer in her own right? And then having your career destroyed by the red scare it's a really. Amazing book that captures this like very particular time in American history. And particularly in the history of film. Excellent. Okay. So what do the west conic diner, two thousand twelve Alberino Leonard's? Upper upper body control. Dr John plays Mak rabbinic and a record with by Jeff Williams jazz drummer and his trio what do they have in common? Nothing. Just absolutely nothing. It's the cutting room for floor of my endorsement off of which I'm now going to impromptu pick a couple up. All right. Let's go with come on Coalisland or give it up. Guys about snatch it away from the Golden State Warriors. He's played like a demon. But also I want to endorse there's. Jazz, drummer named Jeff Williams plays with a trio, he's got an called bloom, terrific record. I did hear about on NPR's fresh air, which I know doesn't represent a lot of value. Add from the point of view of your average gabfest listener, like you know, it's not the most obscure stream from which the pick your tastes. What I will say is that what struck me about that record was the pianist playing on it as a I think very young woman named Carmen staff esta f and her work on the record completely blowing me away. So I looked her up and she's got two or three records out, one of which is called science fair. Just a great title for jazz record. I think we're playing is really beautiful reminds me of nicely aged two thousand twelve Alberino certain kind of minerals cheek to it. Isaac? Thank you so much. Dan? Thanks. You'll find links to some of the things we talked about today at our show page at slate dot com slash culture fest. You can Email us culture festive sleep dot com. And we also have a Twitter feed you can interact with Interactive's that they're with us there, if you'd like to that at slate cult fest. Our production assistant is Alex, perish. Our producer is Benjamin fresh for Dana Stevens. Isaac butlering criminal empty, and in good king. Thank you so much joining us, and we'll see you soon, and an extra special set of thanks, this scale logistical effort that face myth is done to organize this entire slate day in two separate venues, the entire day. She's incredible. No fit Smith is absolutely peerless. I'd also like to thank the friends of the high line, of course. Alex Benjamin always Jason Gambro and Brit Hooley. Thank you very much for, thank you so much for coming listening. I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Drown. No.

Dr John King Lear New Orleans Isaac Butler writer Emma Thompson professor Mindy Dana Chris Glenda Jackson Shakespeare Alan Tucson Mindy Kaeling New York City Gregory cordelia David Simon Katherine Newbury
Best Of: 'Lear' Actor Glenda Jackson / Baseball History In 10 Pitches

Fresh Air

50:27 min | 1 year ago

Best Of: 'Lear' Actor Glenda Jackson / Baseball History In 10 Pitches

"Support for NPR and the following message come from Dulles International Airport with the highest on time takeoff percentage of any airport on the east coast. I a d means I'm already departing more at fly, Dallas dot com slash fast. From WHYY in Philadelphia. I'm Terry gross with fresh air weekend today. British actor Glenda Jackson, she's on Broadway in a new production of King Lear, starring as Lear. She finds it unremarkable that she's playing the role of a man as we get older. Those absolute barriers that define Genda begin to crack. Jackson took a twenty three year break from acting while she served as a member of parliament. Also, we hear from New York Times baseball writer Tyler Kettner. He got some of baseball's best pitchers to talk about fastballs curveballs, and screw balls and even the shady pitches. Our guys still don't want to admit to their trickery on the mound. But sometimes when they when they get caught and at the big public thing they really have nowhere to hide Kevin's new book is called K a history of baseball in ten pitches and linguists Jeff number talks about the word, socialism and its place in current political discourse support for this podcast. And the following message. Come from Exxon Mobil, the company that believes that carbon capture technologies are critical for lowering global CO two emissions and more and more. Scientists agree as a leader and capturing emissions in its own operations. Exxon Mobil is working on ways to make this technology. More efficient and affordable for other industries as well. That's the unexpected energy of Exxon Mobil. Find out more at energy factor dot com. My guests. Glenda Jackson is starring on Broadway. In a new production of King Lear when of Shakespeare's greatest tragedies Jackson plays Lear giving her the opportunity to take on one of the most challenging and prestigious roles in theatre history. But it's a role that for obvious reasons. Always goes to a man near times theater critic Ben Brantley wrote, she is delivering a powerful. And deeply perceptive performance as the most royally demented of Shakespeare's monarchs unquote, King Lear opened on Broadway this month, but Jackson had already played Lear in a London production that opened in twenty sixteen at the old Vic last year. She wanted Tony for her performance in the Edward all be play. Three tall women. It's been an incredible return to acting after serving twenty three years as a member of parliament. She was elected in nineteen two and step down in twenty fifteen her career before that included Oscar winning performances. In the nineteen sixty nine movie women in love and the nineteen Seventy-three romantic comedy a touch of class. She won two Emmys playing Queen Elizabeth the first in the nineteen seventy-one BBC series, Elizabeth r which was shown in the US as part of masterpiece theatre, let's start with a clip from the new Broadway. Production of King Lear Lear has decided that he's old and it's time to unburden himself of his responsibilities as king and divided his kingdom among his three daughters. No, we have divided in three Yala kingdom and I intend to shake all calves and business from. Converting them on youngest things. While we I'm bud. Moore who on debt? Glenda jackson. Welcome to fresh air. Thank you. The first thing people always seem to want to know is why as a woman playing King Lear, and what's it like to be a woman playing Lear? So you I played him in two thousand sixteen at the old Vic in London. Why did you want to play Lear who would refuse the opportunity to work in the play of that stature is such an extraordinary play? Like, oh, let's Shakespeare essentially he owned the also asks three questions who all we want our B Y away, and this particular blades, just astonishing human nature is immutable. And so in the sense, it is the most contemporary play around the minute. We in England had been engaged in kind of gender bend wall. Really? And the marvelous company that was created and succeeded in winning those. Battles. They did all of Shakespeare's histories with over women costs. And so in the sense that battle was over. And what was really into one of the really interesting things for me playing. It was that nobody ever mentioned the fact that I was woman playing a man having seen the play. And also the other interesting thing I found in doing it. When I was a member of parliament part of my duties was to visit out people's homes day centers things of that nature, and as we get older. Those absolute barriers that define Genda begin to crack they begin to get a little bit foggy and break up. And if you think about it, I mean when we're born we teach babies don't we always girls as we get older, we begin to explore think raw the mall the alternatives to are defined gender. And that certainly for Lear is quite useful. I want you to elaborate. It a little bit on how you see gender boundaries blurring or falling away with age and to apply to your own life as well. If you find it applicable will, I think I'm a bit of a cheat. Because when things tough and kind of direct way in my ovary alive. I don't have any qualms about playing the old car. Do you know what I mean? I mean, certainly as far as underground is concerned young people do get up and and of me as seat the first time it happened. I felt absolutely mortified. I now I'm beginning to get to the stage. Where expected in the mortified if it doesn't happen but nine times out of ten dollars. But in direct reference to the play the things that he kicks out being, you know, he's a guy no one during his entire life. And he's eight years old in this play has ever said no to him. And suddenly, someone does say note him. And it all begins to crack for him not in that immediate moment. But that's the story of the play. And so those aspects of him which were overtly masculine because that was the era in which he lived the environment in which he lived begin to move from absolute I'm writing in everybody else's wrong. That's a simplistic way of putting it don't actually evaluate whether he was always, right. And he begins doubted, and that's very interesting. There lines from Lear that have the most meaning to you either. Personally, or that you find most powerful or dramatic to say as an actor. I tried to avoid that I try to observe the world through the characters is but people who see the play do point out lines that a particularly meaningful to them. I always rather regret that they do that. Because then it gets kinda stuck in my head. And I have to find another way of finding if I time if you see what I mean, I think I do that you don't want to sound like a famous line you want it to sound like like, it's is it's you know, it's direct thought. I mean, it's it arises out of the scene that you're trying to create with the other actors on on the stage. Yeah. But I mean, you know in one's own time. There are lines that sort of reverberation echo. Yeah. Psychiatrists have tried to diagnose Lear like like is this dementia related to age is at some other kind of like cognitive disorder is at manic, depression, you can read all kinds of things that psychiatrists have said. I know you try to be inside the character not outside the character. Nevertheless, do you think what he's experiencing is the onset of age related dementia. I would think it was some. What on likely given the time in which it was written people living to the age of eighty would have been a fairly rare occurrence, but nonetheless, it is undoubtedly the case that as I've said I've seen it as we get older those kind of gender barriers begin to crack. But also, people must've experienced walked we are experiencing now as we all living too much greater age of the mixture of what is physical and mental decay. And it is in fact, I think a big black hole for most western democracies? How are we going to cope with this the cassette? And if I look at my own country, we now have a much larger nonworking by virtue of age in retirement population than a working population. How we can look after I elderly if we. Are all going to go down that road? I know we're not we're going to go down that road, and they will be I have no doubt advances in medical science. But you know, it is something that I think was still tending to think it'll be alright ilmenite, and it ain't so you've played kings. And queens you've served in parliament, you're elected to parliament in one thousand nine hundred two you've played powerful people and you've had political power not king low. Really? No, no, no, no backbenches. I I cannot stress strongly enough for me. One of the most humbling experience is was being a member of parliament or members of parliament, hold will, we cold advice surgeries, and you hold them in the constituency and any constituent can come in. And they would and in some instances, they put no re in the really serious ones. They sort of lay that life out on the table in front of you. You don't know them. They don't really know you and not infrequently. Their lives are tragic or disastrous through no fault of their own. And they come to their member of parliament. Because then member of parliament is that port of last resort. You can get response to let people will ring you on the phone in my experience. I didn't always get the result that my constituent wanted. But without exception. Whether I did or whether I didn't they always said, thank you. And that is very very humbling, and it is a great privilege to be elected to be a member of parliament. And that kind of responsibility is something that really makes you realize who you are. And you're pretty damn small. Yes. Okay. I can see what you're saying you're helping people with constituent services and things like that. But you. Also stood up against the Iraq war when Tony Blair joined with President, George George W Bush. So like you use up to power in a way that's different from, you know, being an actor. I mean, sure you might want to stand stand up and object to direction that you're getting. But it's different than standing up to a prime minister who wants to take your country to war. Well, as I've had occasion to say. It was the first time in my experience of being a member of parliament have I had voted against my party's policy, and I presume rather light murder. Once you do it for the first. Why did you want to serve in parliament? Anything I could have done. I mean, I was a member. A who is voted labour? I been asked by the party to do various things for them raise money. I wanted the worst party political broadcast ever things of that nature, and I'd been approached by various constituency parties to consider standing as a prospective parliamentary candidates and in ninety two the election was looming. And I think it was in nineteen eighty nine I was approached by Hamson hike eight which did indeed become my constituency anything I could have done that was legal that got Margaret Thatcher. And her government out of office. I was to have a go out. I didn't expect to be selected. I don't think I really expected to win. But we did win that seat. We didn't win the majority to put into government until ninety seven. But yet that's why what made. This woman this woman who said what had the Suffragettes ever done for her that question. Whether there was such a thing as that had destroyed local government in many ways which before power seat. If that's what it was. It was responsible for delivering services to people in local environments every school in what became my constituency spent the teachers parents not infrequently the pupils spent spare time trying to raise money to buy things like paper and pencils. And now it sounds ridiculous. But that was the case books you go into school library. I mean, they were these books that were falling apart. Or if they were being held together. It was by bit of wallpaper. The teacher dropped it in and stuck down Mozelle tape. The NHS was being attempted. To be restructured, the national health service, absolutely. As a woman who feels strongly about women's equality. An I assume you consider yourself a feminist was disappointing to you. They're finally a woman becomes prime minister. And she's she's so conservative and stands for so many things that you are against well. I mean, the overwhelming disappointed actually was that my party didn't win. I mean general a may even I mean at that time, but it was just that. She seemed to me to be so out of touch with with what were the realities of life for the majority of people in my country. And yes, of course, it was a disappointment that the first woman elected, prime minister was hair. But I think the more at the time it was that she was a conservative. It was any of the years that when saw what we're for me. Disastrous policies wreaking such damage. My guest is Glenda Jackson. She starring on Broadway in a new production of King Lear in the role of Lear. We'll talk more after a break and our linguists Jeff number. We'll talk about the word socialism and its place in current political discourse, I'm Terry gross. And this is fresh air weekend. Support for this NPR podcast and the following message. Come from the United States postal service, everyday innovative companies are reinventing the way business happens. But none of that is possible without the right people people who get packages to over one hundred fifty. Million delivery points affordably and on time with the latest technology and expertise who can help you deliver the future of commerce, the United States postal service. See why they deliver more ecommerce packages to homes than anyone in the country at USPS dot com slash future. Let's get back to my interview with Glenda Jackson last year. She wanted Tony for her performance in Edward all bees play three tall women. These performances were her return to acting after spending twenty three years as a member of parliament in the labor party. Let's hear what you had to say in parliament after Margaret Thatcher died, and this was in twenty thirteen and there were many tributes made in parliament. And this was a day. I think when most of the labor members of parliament stayed away and conservative members were saying, you know, giving many tributes to Margaret Thatcher. And then used it up. Made a pretty scathing speech while conservative members of parliament, basically jeered you so let's hear what you had to say. That everything I had been taught to regard as a vice. And I still regard them as vices under Thatcherism was in fact, a virtue greed, selfishness, no Ken for the weekend shop elbows shop needs. They with the wave. Will continue to hear. With from all. The barriers condemn. The establishment? That was destroyed cone. What we actually saw the learned that has been circling around with stars around. It is that she created an aspirational society. Aspired for things as indeed one of the former prime ministers who himself had been elevated to the house of lords spoke about selling off, the family, silver and people knowing under those years, the price of everything and the value of nothing. What concerns me is that I'm beginning to see possibly the re emergence of that total traducing what I regard as being the basis spiritual nature of this country, where we do care about society where we do believe in communities where we do not leave people to walk by on the other side that isn't happening now while. So did you expect that reaction when you decided to make those? Oh, yes. Of course. I mean, not up there in the chamber for several hours is one does for these kinds of events before. I was called by the speaker. Yes, I'd be nice out there listening to her party rewriting history. As far as I was concerned the United Kingdom that they were describing under Thatcher was not the one I'd lived in. It wasn't the one my constituents live it in. And it certainly isn't the one that was there when she left did you miss acting while you were in parliament. Oh, no, no acting exists when you do it. So if if you're not doing it. There's nothing is wait a minute. I miss things. I'm not doing. Like what? My missing Fresno. You know, I I mean, we all miss things that we're not doing and we miss them because we're not doing them. So but the doing is dependent on so much more than telephoning, your friend. I mean, this is a process outside of which you all I mean, the creation of fort, hopefully, someone will suggest you do is outside your re-met. And so that's why I say unless you're doing it. There's nothing to miss. Okay. Let me rephrase this did you ever miss the process of getting into character learning the role thinking about the role thinking about the intentions of the character and interacting with other actors on a set or onstage to create a scene degrade a movie or a play. Well, that would presuppose I had nothing to do other than think about I had nothing to do. But I do show you being a constituency member of parliament is. Twenty four seven job, and what comes through the mail off the computer via the phone. I mean, they can be transfixed thing. Okay. Let me ask this one. Respond to this you now that you're acting again, do you miss being a member of parliament Nelson at the present time because of the Brexit quagmire oh has managed to put this in. But I do miss my constituency. Yes. And I miss the people that I knew it was if it was a really interesting constituency to represent so it seems like you thought about the possibility of serving in parliament or doing some kind of public service where back in the seventies. I'm going to play an excerpt of nineteen seventy six interview your interviewed by Colin Grimshaw. This excerpt starts with him asking you about what was then your latest film nasty habits based on a novel by mural sparks. You're the person who initiated the phone. It was sent to me with the idea of of it making a very good film making you very good film with lots of good women's parts in it, which is waving the flag for women's libber because they're all women waving me now poke it in your eye. When you work on stage. Do you get nervous always? Why? Because I think the longer you are the more you realize you don't know and the possibilities for making the wrong choices much greater than the probabilities of making the right ones and. That sort of fear is something that you probably learned to control that. But it doesn't have any less. Pas drew give up acting up. Social would you do this? Yes. Because I mean, certainly the life of an actress in films he's very short and in the theater, there's a terrible trough when the Renault parts with playing I mean until you sort of hit about sixty few sort of cracking character part, and I really can't see myself hanging around for twenty years waiting to play an obedient something, and I certainly don't see myself sitting at home just polishing the phone exam. Also coming back to acting not really, no. Okay. The one thing that sounds wrong in that is that you did come back to acting. But everything you say and that sounds like so contemporary the shortage of roles for women, especially at certain ages. The deal is an absolute that has not changed during my experience in acting. So in that interview clip, you obviously feel strongly about the women's movement or women's lib as he as he called it. How know what I really really feel strongly about. And I wish I had a good come up with the reason for it is why contemporary dramatists find women so boring. They are rarely if ever the driving dramatic engine of of a play or film of you. You know, I'm identify that is I mean, we are by no means equal as a gender of certainly not worldwide. But the have been major improvements doors have opened for women that were firmly. Locked many decades ago, why don't contemporary dramatists find this interesting. But they don't. So I mean, you are so work oriented parliament was just like a more than full time job for you Ditto with acting and now certainly doing Lear how how do you feel about the possibility of retirement? Well, if I don't get off you work, then I'll be retired. And you know, the good room. What do you think you would want to do with your time? Well, I like argh Ning, and I'm a grandma so I get grandma duty, which is an interesting experience. Is it different than being apparent? Absolutely. I enjoy them send them home. Well, it's been a pleasure to speak with you think you much. Thank you. Glenda Jackson is now starring in a new Broadway. Production of King Lear in the role of Lear. Since the early twentieth century the word socialism has lived on the fringes of American political discourse. Now, suddenly, it's at the forefront of the national conversation are linguists. Jeff Berg has some thoughts on the label that came in from the cold time was when the word socialism had affirmed footing in the American political lexicon with all the meanings that is collected in the other nations where it's taken root, it could be mixed or pure planned or market, a dogma or simply aspiration the name of our desire as the critic Irving Howe famously defined it. But after the American socialist movement crumbled in the nineteen twenties the right compacted the word into a single term of abuse. It became the S word, which is the title that John Nichols of the nation magazine gave to his recent history of socialism in America from social security and unemployment insurance Medicare and the Affordable Healthcare Act Republicans have labeled every social welfare program proposed. By Democrats as socialist socialistic or creeping socialism a phrase coined by Thomas Dewey in nineteen thirty nine give socialism of foothold they'd say and nothing can arrest. The slide to prediction in nineteen thirty six. Herbert Hoover said that FDR socialist policies were leading America on March to Moscow with the fall of the Soviet empire. Half a century later Republicans had a redirect that road to a warmer destination as vice president Pence told the conservative political action committee last March, we know where socialism needs just look at Venezuela. But the logic hasn't changed since Hoover's time passing universal health care or fifteen dollar minimum wage is like picking up a monopoly card that says go directly to Caracas do not pass Stockholm until recently Democrats dismissed those charges as fearmongering in nineteen fifty two Harry Truman. Called socialism scare word and said that when a Republican says down with socialism, he really means down with progress. But the S word isn't quite as spine chilling now, particularly to millennials they have no memory of the Cold War. They can't tell you what the second s in USSR was for. And the fall of the Berlin Wall is just one of a mash of eighties film clips along with the Exxon Valdez pacman, and Boy, George the upheaval that shape. Their political perceptions was the financial meltdown of the mid two thousand that made them keenly aware of the mayhem that Godzilla capitalism could wreak and of the economic inequality that the occupy movement captured with quantitative precision with a new phrase the one percent socialism began to sound like a needed corrective, particularly once it was personified by contentious old Senator from Vermont and a young congresswoman from New York with the digital natives talent. Social media both of them avowed. Socialist is the media sometimes described them in the way, they've traditionally referred to avowed Theus and avowed homosexuals by two thousand eighteen a majority of millennials said, they had a positive you of socialism, including quite a few Republicans not all of those who look kindly on socialism. Go onto label themselves as socialist or democratic socialists too. Many of them the word of oaks, phrases like the social contract. Another term that's been in the air a lot lately. But however, they describe themselves the great majority of millennials associates socialism with new deal style programs like universal health care and access to free higher education, not state control a business, and while they give low marks to capitalism, they are at hostile to free markets. In fact, an overwhelming majority say they approve of the free enterprise system that's not a contradiction. It's the difference between accepting the rules of the game and saying it could be played a little more decently. After all you can love football. But hate the NFL. The fact is that most of the millennial fans of socialism don't see the role of government that differently from the people who still call themselves progressives or liberals, though, they tend to be more dog at about it to conservatives that just means that millennials don't know the true. Meaning of the word socialism conservatives often seem to assign magical powers to the word. Call yourself, a socialist. And you summon the. Specter of Stalin, whether you meant to or not you think you're calling for guaranteed healthcare, but you're really calling for gulags collectivisation actually as John Nichols points out, the recent popularity of socialism has a lot to do with the way conservative media slathered the word over Barack Obama and his programs both of which were fairly popular. That's a risk Republicans run when they frame the Democrats positions as socialistic. They may inadvertently detoxify the brand, particularly when the connections to Marxism are hard to discern Senator McConnell recently denounced what he called the Democrats radical half-baked socialist proposal to make election day federal holiday, but more than two thirds of Americans think that's a good idea. And if that makes them socialist. Well, what's to be frightened of a lot of voters are still skittish about socialism? So that all the democratic hopefuls other than Sanders have had to forswear the label though is. The Florida Democrat, Andrew gillum noted. It's not as if that will stop Republicans from calling them socialist anyway, but it's no longer exclusively the Republicans were to define or demonize. It's a contested label. Now Justice conservative is on the right? It isn't yet clear where socialist will settle in the vocabulary the American left as it jostles with labels like liberal and progressive, but it's not the S word anymore. That might be the most consequential change in American political language since the area when Herbert Hoover was walking the earth. Jeff Berg is linguist who teaches at the university of California Berkeley school of information coming up we'll hear from New York Times baseball columnist Tyler Kettner. His new book is called K a history of baseball in ten pitches. This is fresh air weekend support for NPR and the following message. Come from gusto providing payroll benefits and HR built for the way, small businesses. Work with gusto. Your federal state and local payroll taxes are calculated paid and filed on your behalf. You can even use gusto to offer your team health benefits and 4._0._1._K's more than sixty thousand businesses nationwide us gusto for full service payroll HR, tools and health insurance. To learn more. Go to gusto dot com slash NPR. Our next guest is New York Times national baseball writer Tyler Kettner. He's the author of the new book K a history of baseball in ten pitches. It's about the countless ways pitchers have learned to make the ball dance and dart on its way to the plate. He writes about fastball screw balls and knuckle balls as well as the shady pitches spitballs grease balls, mud balls and baseballs doctored with sandpaper thump tax or even the sharp edges of a catcher's shin guard as part of his research Kenner interviewed twenty two hall of fame pitchers. He spoke with fresh Air's Davies. Tyler her welcome to fresh air. Will if I have a favorite chapter. It's the one about the spitball spinners. Pitchers have been doctoring baseballs for a long time. And the stories are endless can be one of your favorites. A lot of guys still don't want to sort of admit to their trickery on the mound. But sometimes when they when they get caught. And it's a big public thing. They really have no where to hide. So it was a little embarrassed. Talking to Rick Honeycutt who was the longtime pitcher for mostly for Oakland and some other teams. And now he's been the pitching the dodgers for a long time. A little bit Barras to ask them about sort of the worst moments career, but he took it in good humor. When Rick Honeycutt was a young pitcher for the Seattle. Mariners nineteen eighty he had made the all star team. But the second half of the season with was just a fiasco. He couldn't get anybody out of felt like he was losing his big losing streak. And so before late-season starred in Kansas City, he absent mindedly passed a bulletin board. And he saw a thumb tack. And he got the brilliant idea to put a thumb tack in his glove and see if he could just scratch the ball in the strategic location and get the ball to have a little more movement. And maybe change his luck a little bit. Of course, this was a legal, but he was desperate and willing to kind of crossover into the dark arts of the game. There was no MLB network back then about even if the game was on was televised. So it's not as many prying eyes as you have today from the cameras. So we thought he could get away with it. But the problem was first of all it wasn't working too. Well, one of Rick's problems this day was that the home plate empire is getting Bill Kunkel who had happened to pitch for the Yankees a little bit with Whitey Ford. Who was well known for defacing the baseball late in his career and having many ways to get a little scuffed on the ball to the mud the mud ball. The his catcher Elston Howard would sort of subtly scratch. The the ball with his sharp edge of shin guards before he threw it back to him. So feel concl- the fire knew what a defaced baseball looked like and how it behaved. And so it wasn't very long until we asked to see what was in. Rick Honeycutt Govan's saw the thumb tack and he threw out of the game and Honeycutt thought he might have been. Banned from baseball. He was young and then nervous needed. No going to happen. And he just he got a little suspension, and but the marriage ended up trading him and he pitched seventeen years in the big league. So I guess it was their laws. They have held onto the young cheater and believed in him because he had a long career ahead of him. And he never scuffed again and a ball that has tobacco juice spit mud. You know hair cream. What is it do? The guys who would do it back in the day. They could make sure that it was on one side and not the other. If you have it overloaded on one side, the dynamics are going to affect the flight of the ball differently. Think about the way baseball is shaped with the the seams and the smooth edges on the ball the leather if one of those is different than the other whether it's tobacco Jews or overloaded with fast lean or a scuff or dirt or something. It's going to move differently and the pitchers enough experimenting to know that you know, if you've got something on the side and not on this side. It's it's going to it's going to break different way. So cutting the ball and scuffing it with sandpaper or tax they would put tobacco juice on it. They would put vacillating, right and hair cream. In fact, wasn't there a commercial that Don Drysdale made to spoof? All this. This thing. Yes. In nineteen sixty eight Drysdale through a record until Orel Hershiser broken thirty years later record fifty eight and two thirds consecutive scoreless innings, and he found a way to capitalize on his well-founded reputation for occasionally throwing a spitball agrees ball by getting a commercial for Vitalis hair tonic and in this commercial. He looks in for the sign against the giants hitter. And the hitter calls time out, and Dr L casually removes it happen hit cap and runs his fingers through his hair and Herman Franks. The giants manager bolt out of the dugout and these Greece ball grease ball. See him rub his hair. He's going to throw a grease ball. That's a legal so Drysdale grimaces, and he's discussing the tosses his glove on the grass. He goes back to the clubhouse and their. He finds a bottle of Italian return to the mount and holds the bottle high for all to see and the announces Fidel has no Greece and spreads easily through your hair. If we all use the Telus we could help put an end to the grease ball. It was just having fun with it. Does it still happen? Do we still see Dr balls? Well, the consensus is that there's not the kind of classic spitball or using lean or anything like that that we would see so much through the sixties and seventies. Just because there's so many cameras now and people who are literally as their job to to watch film and look for anything that pitchers doing different we have data and technology that can capture just how much pitches moving, and if something is out of the ordinary you're going to spot it really quick what is sort of tacitly allowed now not by the rules, but sort of by the the way that hitters act is just getting a better grip on the ball. Hitters. Don't want a ball to slip out of the pitcher's hands. That can be literally a deadly weapon in pitcher's hand. They want to know generally, where the pitch is going to go so pitchers have ways of concocting a. Substance that can give a little more tackiness to to their fingers. Let's say combination of Rosin, and bullfrog sunscreen, and or colorless odorless tough skin, which is kind of something you can use to make tape. Stick on your wrist or something you just put a little little dab of that at former hitter showed me how to do that. And just a little spray on your arm. Knowing can see it. But it creates a little oasis of tackiness on your arm, and so between pitches pitcher can just sort of casually touch that spot, and no one might even notice, but you get a little more of a grip on the ball. And that's generally. Okay. As long as it's not overt as long as it's subtle. One fascinating story about pitchers sharing skills with another involves ROY halladay the late player for the pitched for the Toronto. And for the Phillies and how he learned the cutter from from the master of. Mario Rivera when they were together at the all star game yet. I thought I thought that that story I took on an added poignant element because they both were elected to the hall of fame this year in the same class. And of course, ROY died in a plane crash, and he won't be there for the ceremony. But but he has this connection with Rivera because of the pursuit of excellence. I mean, if you at the all-star game, you're already obviously it all star. You're one of the best. But how they took the opportunity in two thousand eight being teammate with Rivera just for a couple of days to ask him about. The the cutter is the pitch that made Marianna famous and and took him to the hall of fame and how through it. But. He didn't feel like he was throwing it. Well, he thought that he was doing something wrong with how his fingers were placed on the ball his thumb placement in particular. And so he went to Rivera. And he said, I think I'm doing something wrong with my cutter. I think this pitch could be better. How do you? Hold yours and Rivera showed him and Rivera was was very open about it. And how they noticed that his thumb was in the wrong place. And so once he made that adjustment. Just by tucking the under the ball rather than just holding it sort of parallel to his index finger, then the pitch started behaving the way he wanted. And what how they did was he took a pen, and he traced his fingers on the ball just as Rivera had showed him. And then whenever he would get out of whack for the rest of his career. He would have that ball in his travel bag, and he could just put his fingers in the Rivera spots and know that that was where they needed to be and really it took him to the hall of fame because he was already great. But those next three years nine ten and eleven he threw the cutter more than any other starting pitcher in baseball. And he had three of the best years of his career without that last burst of dominance. I don't think he would have made it to Cooperstown. What always surprises me about that story is that these are two pitchers that are pitching in the American League at the same time. And I just wonder how Maryono Rivera's teammates on the Yankees feel about how him instructing this guy who's to face on how to throw this nasty pitch, which gets them out. I mean is right. A competitive loyalty here. Well, yeah. They ended up finding Marietto in kangaroo court. You know, all these various non-offensive crimes, they'll doctor teammates few bucks here and there so they did halladay was always really tough on them. And he got even tougher and they were really marrano come on. You couldn't have held that went back a little bit. But I think it's it's it's part of the brotherhood of pitchers that you're going to help each other. Because even if you show someone the grips that it's still up to the player to not just put in the time. But. Also, get lucky enough to have the right physiology for it. I mean, a lot of these guys can't throw a certain pitch so Maryono that cut or to to anybody wants. But only a select few can have anywhere close to the success. He had with it pitchers have all kinds of grips that impart all kinds of spin on balls, their sliders and spinners, screw balls and all these things and hitters have to try and recognize them. And and -ticipant how they might break. Can they tell from the spin on the seems what's coming in? Sometimes a slider. For example. A lot of hitters will say they look for the red dot in the way, the balls red seems are sort of coming together. And if it's a big sort of dot the size of a quarter that is what they call a cement mixer and has to sort of spinning there, obviously, and it's not going to do much. But then again, you got a guy like Matt Williams who played a longtime for the giants and Arizona Diamondbacks and some other teams he. Said he took seven thousand at bats in the big leagues. He said he'd never saw the dot on a slider. He's like, I think it's a myth. I'm just saying I never saw it. So you know, a pitcher who could throw a slider without a dot for anybody guy. Like Brad lidge, the Phillies had a big advantage because hitters just didn't know what they were looking at. But yes, some pitches have tailspin I talked to Wade Boggs about his stats. How were you able to hit split finger fastball pitchers? So well, and he said, well, I could see the ball tumble. I could pick up the action on the ball. And I could tell when it was going to tumble and based on where he was throwing where it's going to end up. But I said well had to do this at twenty twelve vision. So when my vision when my vision got a little worse and it went back to twenty twenty. I couldn't see the Tom bowl. And I struggled just like everyone else. I'm like. Okay. Well, if you're if you have Wade Boggs hitting skills to begin with and you have twenty twenty vision, then maybe you can see the tumble on a split finger fastball. But for the rest of your mortals, it's going to be tricky talk a little bit about the state of the game in two thousand nineteen. Pace of play is a big thing these days. I mean, it just seems that games take forever. Are they slower what are the rules that are being imposed to move the game along, well, mainly their cosmetic? They got rid of the intentional walk at least the aspect of having to go through with throwing the pitches. If you want to intentionally walk a guy just they don't -pired his waves down. I but most games don't even feature an intentional walk. So that's not going to do much. They shaved five seconds off of commercial breaks. Again. It's not much that you're going to notice. They tried to regulate how many mound visits you can take not necessarily just the pitching coach. But even fielder coming over and talking to a mound six last year. And now five but most of those things really don't affect the pacing of the game. The biggest factor is that there are so many strikeouts now and that pitchers need obviously three pitches to strike out a batter, and there's probably going to be a baller to in their foul. So hitters have also learned that the more pitches, they see the better they are paid. And so it pays to draw walks. It pays to work. Deep counts and run up the pitchers pitch count. Get him out of the game. And force him into a mistake. Really? If you think about just mathematically the more pitches, you see in that bat better chance, you have that the pitcher will put one in the wrong location, and that you can take advantage of that. So the more pitches there are the longer the game's going to be and as long as hitters are incentivized to see a lot of pitches. I think baseball's going to have a really really tough time trying to cut down on the the time game. Is there any restriction on how long a batter can take is always allowed to step out of the batter's box stretch. Take a couple of wings tighten each of the batting gloves and get back in which takes thirty seconds. They've tried to tighten that up to if you don't foul the ball offer or swinging or something you're supposed to keep. Keep yourself in the box the way guys used to that has helped a little bit. It's easier to enforce in the minor leagues. Because the major leagues Pires just generally still let hitters for the most part what they wanna do up there. You don't see this big epidemic of calling a ball on on on the pitcher dawdles or calling a strike on the hitter who takes too long, but they can they can. I mean by the letter of the law, but you just don't see mostly pitchers will get a fine a nominal sort of slap on the wrist from the league. It's something that baseball's always aware of because baseball does have a different pacing naturally than other sports. But baseball is really worried about the more strikeouts than hits thing because they will tell you that it's yes, it's time of game. But more importantly is the pace of the action. They want more balls in play and pitchers are just so good. Now, they throw so hard, and they have such sophisticated breaking balls that pitching is just is harder to hit. We see more balls. Than ever because hitters can't swear these pitches up and also somewhat of its tactical by the hitters. They realized that pitching so good that what are the odds of getting three hits in an inning three singles to score a run. It's probably easier to hope that a pitcher will make a mistake. And that you can put a ball over the fence and get around that way. So there was a record number home runs and twenty seventeen the twenty nineteen pace is up there too. And so home runs are up and strikeouts are up and what does that mean? There's not a lot of balls in play. And that's where the action happens. That's possibilities. Are that's where you get guys on base steal baser guy over all those things are sort of being lessened in the game as we care more and more up for home runs or strikeouts. And that's a problem for MLB. And they don't quite know how to solve it. I wonder sometimes if our expectations are not changed by living in a digital age where you know, we're always entertained by our smartphones and other. Greens. And we just have less patience for game that moves slowly. I think there's something to that. I think though also that I've been hearing these things about baseball's pace, I'm forty four. I've been hearing them since since fourteen probably that baseball was too slow for kids. And and it was not fast paced, like, basketball, or hockey or soccer. And I still think you could pass out as many surveys as you want that say football is the number one sport. And all that. But I think it's a dishonest comparison because football has sixteen games a year. Baseball has a hundred sixty two games a year with an industry thirty teams. Most of them do quite well, there's only one or two teams continually struggle with attendance two or three teams. Let's say attendance was down last year. And that was an issue, but they still it's a ten or eleven billion dollar industry. You have a minor league system. That is spread out all across the country and small towns everywhere. And people watch games whether in person or on television that to tremendous numbers baseball does struggle nationally to get ratings that they used to but locally these teams tend to do great. The point is like the first game in the history of the Mets in nineteen sixty two or the Padres and nine hundred sixty nine there were acres of empty seats like baseball now is is a happening. Whereas in this golden era that we remember it just wasn't that way. New York only had one team in nineteen fifty eight fifty nine sixty sixty one baseball is doing pretty well when you put it in historical lens, and yes, they have problems with pacing. But I think it'll sort itself out Tyler cabinet. It's been fun. Thanks so much for speaking with us. Yeah. Thanks, a lot of fun. Tyler kept near national baseball writer for the New York Times. And other of the new book K a history of baseball in ten pitches. He spoke with fresh Air's Davies. Fresh air weekend is produced by Teresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our engineers this week, our Audrey Bentham and Adam Stanishev ski our interviews and reviews and produced an edited by Amy salad Phyllis Myers. Roberta shorrock sambergen, Lauren. Crendall Heidi Simone moods. Eighty Challenor Seth Kelly Joel Wolfram, Molly seavy nesper, our associate producer of digital media. I'm Terry gross.

baseball parliament King Lear Glenda Jackson Fresh Air Terry gross NPR New York Times Tony Blair King Lear Lear writer US Exxon Mobil Margaret Thatcher MLB Jeff number Ben Brantley Tyler Kettner giants Maryono Rivera
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Game of Thrones Season 8, Ep #6, Series Finale Recap | The Iron Thone

"Tonight's game of thrones series. Finale recap is sponsored by our friends over at blue diamond almonds. Are you watching game of thrones and tired of the same boring snacks? Let me tell you winter is here. So is the perfect snack. It's blue diamond almonds, whether you're going to work bored at work, leaving work, these almonds are the perfect snack Honey roasted. Flavored almonds, Saracho flavored almonds was sobbing. Soy sauce flavored almonds? Do I have your attention? Why keep snacking on boring chips when you go to the store and pick up blue diamond almonds right now? It's the most popular snack choice in the six or seven kingdoms whatever the moment blue diamond almonds is the perfect snack. Joe? Tonight your cravings go pick up some great flavors right now and eat them blue diamond almonds crave. Victoriously. Yes. That is a right game of thrones the series is over. But we are just getting started here to talk about all of the bitter and the sweet here in the game of thrones series. Finale, I'm rob caesarian with Seeven fish BAC. Steven. How are you? I'm great. I mean, isn't it crazy things we've been speculating about thirty years? We now know the answer to. The we know them. It's over. And we're here to talk about it with you live on the night of the game of thrones series finale were long strange trip. It's been closure on a lot of different characters tonight. We'll talk about it all here with you live, Stephen first off. How are you doing some business out of the way before we forget, yes, the snowing snow at all is me? Dan? He was not. Well, we don't know we don't know outright. We don't know we don't know for certain. Okay. Stephen how're you doing after the game of thrones? Finale. What's your I, I wear thumbs up or thumbs down? I was down, rob. I gotta tell you this was my least favorite episode of the season so far to be honest. Ooh. Yeah. What about yourself your least favorite episode of the of the we'll let me just explore that why? I just didn't do anything for me. I felt like the threads that tied together tied together loosely getting badly. I thought like the big shifts that could have been momentous were it didn't it didn't like we're like, kinda unfounded. And I thought like some of the dialogue was super super corny that scene with John Danny like it looked like it was from an eighties. Music video, you know, just like bleak landscape. Snow is falling expect like drapery to be fluttering in the background. You know. It was just like you. Sanny. Yeah. Soon. It was just a little a little corny for my for my liking, and then the stuff that I was waiting for it to hit me in the gut it just didn't land. I wanted to be gut punch so bad by like this bleak resolution last week. You know, it's like it's like this, like, sort of, like picking up the pieces. I expected it to be like the end of King Lear where like everyone's dead. And they're like, how do we move on? But it wasn't. I think that overall with the exception of denarius and you knew it was gonna end for her after last week's episode. I thought this was very happy ending for a game of thrones. And I have to say I was not quite expecting that I think that in the end. Yeah, it was not necessarily the sad ending for, and I almost hesitate to call it bitter sweet because I feel like that other than for Danny, it was kind of pretty sweet ending for, for all of the good, guys. Everybody gets a pretty, you know, happier satisfying ending in one way or another. Yeah. Almost everyone ends up with what they really wanted all along. Right. Like San say's Queen and the north Jon does not have power, but he's like back with his like Nightwatch broS. He goes to reunited Tyrian has the kind of, you know, respected position advisor Lee position. He wants only Danny really got hosed, only Danny host, and yeah. And then who knows maybe drug on his carried her off to some some magical fantasy kingdom. I don't know maybe maybe in the east where she can be revived by the Lord of light. But Stephen that it was sort of a foregone conclusion about deniro wasn't gonna make it out of this episode. And then. I guess there was some speculation is going to be John. Is it going to be Oreo who's going to do the deed, but then Tyrian really makes the pitch to John and really was surprised how much alone time John got with one of the treasonous prisoners. Those prison. Spell searched us like volving doors. Like people anyone can come and go, but John is a pretty, you know, John is like a pretty high guy he probably pulled a similar trick to a Tyrian did to get into to Jamie sell whole life, since when does denarius hesitate on delivering Justice. Isn't that her thing? I mean, she's in the middle of like one of her big political rallies, and it's like, oh, wait. Hold on. Hey, hey, everybody. Here's a traitor. Take them away. What they didn't her thing for jerk Horace burn them alive in front, wouldn't that have played great in front of the crowd? Yeah. I treated that as well. Which is like, like what about, like everyone else just gets immediately roasted alive, various roasted alive. The tar Leigh's they don't get taken away. They give roasted alive and. Yeah. Not not so Tyrian Ellie that he gets visitors visitors. John's gets to come. And visit with. With Tyrian and it was like a nice, Sal, it was really big. Yeah. Not getting thrown into the black cells or any data about those. Yeah. It was like a spacious my New York apartment. Very nice. Very nice. Yeah. It was like the friend set. So, yeah, ultimately, I are big headline is basically, it was a two has to the episode and deniro's ends up getting slain by John snow. What's your reaction to John snow kills generis? I mean, I think this was this was really the thing that I felt I needed to happen. I think a lot of people also felt that this needed to happen that John was going to kill like his own narrative, has been, like personal sacrifice. I thought he was going to die Killington, there would yeah, I actually would have been more satisfied with, because it did seem like a sort of low stakes. Encounter lou. What about you rob, you're holding back? Did you like it? What did you think of this? Big John, John. Killington. Heiress. I mean I thought it was a scene because I thought I like John does seem so gullible, so impressionable like the last person he talks to tends to get his ear and it's enough that she was kind of making some sense to him. And it's almost like I feel like that if it wasn't for her saying like, and then we're going to wear fell. And then when Dohrn and just the fact that if she would have been like you know what king, I I'm done. I'm done here. I made my point. John could live with that. But the fact that it seemed like that there was going to be more people to, quote unquote liberate. That's why he had to do what he did. But I think I might have liked this more had drogue on just flame. Jon snow into oblivion or he resisted because he's Gary and blood. But I didn't understand what like why drogue on was so fixated on burning, the iron throne like he really wanted to burn down that iron throw is causing all this. Stroke onset along that. Hey, the iron throne is gonna get us nowhere. God knew who knew that, that dragons were so invested in, like symbolic representations of monarchy. Yeah. And drug on Jay's able to those each on snow in one bite, but look past this, like, hey, I guess you're Gary and it's coal. Yeah. He didn't mind so much John killing Danny. He just. I'll take it. And then he picked up, Danny and flew away. It was such a weird weird moment. No-one no-one tracked, the no, no Intel brands not aware of the dragon. Let's, let's not even get into that. Let's, let's save that for when we talk about the second half of the episode. But yeah, it's I thought, you know, no guards, no security whatsoever. And I thought John snow is going to be able to slink out of there. Yeah. But, but I actually was glad glad that he was arrested that was a more sensible ending than him, just kind of like writing off until at least some actions have consequences in, and he was he was, it was not Yuki stab the Queen and not have anybody, of course, of course. And you would think then I mean, the unsullied. Are also that. Oh, well Danny's, not here. What do we do? All right. Let's lock him up. I how long was this time jump for in between the two half the episodes, it must have been a longtime Tyrians beard, grown out quite a bit. I don't know how fast is beer grows. People had come from really far away, right? I mean how long does it get down there? You know that's probably a couple of we I guess. I guess they could potentially come by ship. You would think at least at the minimum Tyrians beard is pretty long seems like maybe two weeks and the unsullied didn't kill Jon snow immediately which you would think that after Dinara says murdered that they would have just taken swift Justice out on John snow. Yeah. I mean what, what who was running grey worm was in charge? Like it was he was in charge. But it was like gray was like, okay well, hold on. We have to wait for a new leader of the seven kingdoms to be named before we can make any sort of disciplinary action on Tyrian or John Snell. Yeah. And while great one was like slitting throats in the streets like he's not really wait for proper trial kind of guy. Yeah. So. Yeah. So I guess it's a good thing for John snow, and for Tyrian that they ended up waiting and we get this big summit which at points. Was hilarious. I mean they did like the fake out joke thing twice. We which fake out joke thing with, like, what are we going to do next, and then Edme, your Tully of all people gifts like three minutes to chew the scenery and give his speech and Santa's like all right? Ed mayor sit down. It's not gonna fit you which was bolt, which respect respect. The call to just have your have. Edme. You're just get dunked on in the finale. And then our starts with, like, well, what if we let the people decide and he gets like amid into that areas like the people crazy. In general, like it just did seem like that was like that moment was the one nod to, like, not contemporary, sensibilities. But the fact that they ended up getting elected monarch at all. It was insane like where did the Sam just invented democracy, you know, essentially democratic he wrote about it at the citadel? Yeah, I guess, but, like plus two. Stephen. So then Tyrian goes from being a prisoner to he pitches, the room on, I've got an idea. I know just the guy brand the broken. Yeah. I actually tweeted about this. I hated the speech. It was like stories define us. We are stories stories are powerful and honestly, like it is just felt like the most generic expression of like enthusiasm about stories and felt like you know, like the. Like I was like I felt like a branded content campaign for Levi's like we are the movers. We're the storytellers where the makers it just felt like so Korean like so un-trumpian. Yes. Because if anybody can really spin a yarn and tell a story it's Brandon star. That guy noted storyteller. He can. He can really tell a tale. And what like why is he just arbitrarily choosing the person he thinks the most people could get behind because the really is not anything rep recommending brand? You could tell a story about any one of those people accept accepted Tali like sitting around that, that little sweet robbing was looked into a strapping, young man that even recognize him. That's who that was. Yes, we've, Robin is a hip, Uber D And looks like he's hitting the gym. What about his story, you know, like he lost his mother had to defend the veil while literally everyone else was being winter fell for all the time. That's really blossom yon Royce, not being around. Finally stepped into his own. Yeah. So all right. So we get pitched brand, and I have to say that there was all this betting that was allowed to go on during game of thrones on these betting sites. And you could bet on who's going to be sitting on the iron throne at the end of it, and brand stark had, like ridiculous odds that you couldn't even bet on him. It was like one to five on brand stark sitting on the iron throne and what always happens with these betting sites. And somebody in the know was able to. So it was like, look, I don't think a lot of people thought it as spoiler. Well, this is ludicrous. Why brand sitting on the throne? How does that happen? But sure enough, never bet against Vegas or off shore betting sites. Yeah. Well, that's why I guess that is clearly that was that was spoiled. For over a year. Brand had incredible odds to be on the iron throne at the end of it. But I think Bill. Well, that's crazy. How could could branded up on the throne? Yeah. Someone just like like loaded a ton of money onto those having it's both tell me rob. It was random, even in the conversation when you and Josh or doing this sort of your predictions for the end. I don't think so of who would sit on the iron throne brand stark that was not even talked about in terms of brand sitting on the iron throne because one who would want that. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing brain is so just chill about everything. And anything that happens, anyone who does anything like well that's where you were supposed to be like, how can that guy rule? You know if someone commits a crime is like, well that was the crime that you were supposed to commit. You know there's, there's no Justice in brand world. I feel like that brands powers have been very inconsistent. Whereas I thought that he could see all things backwards and forwards. It's it seems as though, wavy sort of like ret cons a little bit. He can see backwards and he can war gin to other stuff, but he can't surly see the future. But then he did say tonight like, well, why do you think I came all the way down here? So if he can see the future. It seems like that. He's really picked his spots to share his information. Maybe he's conc- enough of the present. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. Like he probably has been, you know, the secret architect of this whole fried Twitter of that, you know, he was the one that said, hey, Sam, you gotta tell John about being a gone area and really set this whole thing in motion. Yeah. If that hadn't happened, the little finger, once, you know, imagine the worst possible motivation a person can have an ask this makes sense. Why they're behaving the way they are. And he had this very smug grin when he said like, why do you think I came all this way? Maybe brand is maybe that's what the sequel will be about what a jerk France. Yeah. And here's a one thing that did bother me about this, where everybody's on board. I we get the Sansa Sansa basically says look the people of north they've been through so much. There's no way I could possibly sell to them that the ruler of the seven kingdoms will be a stark for that. We have seen of the we had to see they know they know no ruler. But they cannot for whatever they, they will not tolerate a stock on the iron throne. That's that's too much. We have seen. I mean, I'm with you on that on the other hand like it seemed to me like so Pat, like everyone accepting Bradley, nobody's going to object to this total, like lunatic weirdo over here like blooming, the seven kingdoms, I'm glad at least someone raised their hand and was like, Mike, Ingham actually has some set of priorities. I think felt like well, I am very sympathetic to a disabled ruler of the of the land that is that is very reminiscent of print storing. Yeah. Rest in peace store. I know you love the, the door employee. Yeah. Your great joy was on board. Why, why, why do the great joys like want? Okay. This, it makes no sense for the iron born to be cool with being ruled by brand. Yeah. I guess why rock the boat literally. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, this, this king's moot comes to an end Stephen, and everybody's on board and not only that brand is gonna make teary and goes from prisoner to being handed the king. Yeah. Which which was fun. I mean, you know, and Graham said he needs to be punished and brand says, he's, he's a lot about things and he's gonna make up for them. Is that is that typically how you punish people who have like failed that is you give them the same job? Tell them to undo all the bad things they've done in the past. I think so that's, that's, that's typically how I would go. And so brand is going to have teary and as the. Hand of the king. And I think this is a mistake. I think Tyrian is you've talked about this as lost a few miles off the fastball. He ends up stacking the small council complete cronyism puts his friends like Braun. Honors that deal somehow to Liam ran on the high garden deal, like, that's crazy aid in the master of coin. Yeah. No. That was a bad decision that was a really, really bad decision. Like what was what was the whole like crossbow plot was that? What was the point of that, that every, we talked so much about? Chekhov's crossbow crossbow has to such a meaningful crossbow. They love Braun. Broad. I saw an interview where Georgia are Martin did not mention a character by name, but he said that this one character on the TV show. That's really pissing him off, how much airtime they're getting because they are not an important character. And everybody just to do that. He's talking about Braun. Yeah. They love it. They love Braun. Yeah. Yara great joy. Yeah. I thought that scene at the end of the episode. The small council meeting did not really sit well with me where it's just like we're ending the show on. Hey alright. So back to our regularly scheduled brothel jokes. Well, yeah, I guess that is sort of maybe I was looting to. And I said it didn't hit me, which is like gut punch of expected to be bleak. Desperation to pick up the pieces, and then stead, it's like all of the friends back in the friends chamber like having your friend jokes. You know, it was like all of our favorite Powell. Felt like we broke the wheel in that moment. He I. Nineties trailer of the nineties version of game of thrones wherever smiling and looking at the camera. And like giving thumbs up or whatever. I felt like that scene was kind of, like nineties game of thrones where it ends with everyone kinda like grinning, and you know central. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So we spent a lot of focus at the end on the three stark children in particular, in John and. Sansa. Aria. So we end up with John ending up accepting being sent back to the night's watch where he will resume his role of the I guess as Lord commander of the night's watch, but there's no other really. Nightwatchmen around. It's really now he's almost like the new manse raider leader of the free folk. Yeah. I mean, there's nothing to really protect against the Wild Wings are like all cool now known as worried about the riot, while they're our friends and army of the dead. It turns out there bunch of suckers, too. So can't be stressed by the army of the dead. They're they're useless. Yeah. And then for John snow to ultimately end up back where he started at the night's watch. What do you mean? What do I think of it? I mean that good bad. Does it work for you? I honestly I'm still processing, obviously, like this is twenty minutes ago. We finish watching this episode. I don't know if felt like nothing, you know, it felt like he's like nothing has happened. Like he's been on this insane journey these back where we started like he didn't even seem like that. I mean, he kind of looked like slightly more scally than usual you. Tell me helped me think through this. So I think that there is some poetic Justice to it for John snow to really come full circle end up back at the night's watch. He is the leader of a group of people. And I think that he is back at a at a job that he can excel at and find some happiness. I think that what's really tough to swallow is that he is now back to. He can never have a family. He can never marry and he sort of had the, you know, the two great loves of his life in egret, and Narus and had to watch both of them die. And he's directly responsible for the death of denarius. He it was Ali who ended up taking out egret, and so that part is sad for John snow, but he did seem ease reunited with ghost. Finally, he got the pet ghost. I can't believe goes to him back. Yeah. Ghost. I should've been that was my hope was that goes, which is bite. His head off. If you neglect dire wolf and then you can't just put your hand in. It's in his mouth drill gone didn't get himself. Drove ended and get them was going to. And so he Johnston to sort of come around on it by the hang out with torment. Yeah. His buddies interesting, and it's sort of, like I guess that's moving in to the extent. This was a guy who was really at the center of the world's events. And now he's kind of been pushed out, really, to the sidelines, very small local life, and none of these great events. None of these great passions that have really been so central to him. And so central to the row, that's sort of all in his past now and it's kind of moving. And so there's a stark at the night's watch. There always was is really ATar Garin, and that really kind of didn't go anywhere, except in terms of Danny knowing the secret, but it didn't really get out. No one. No one was stressed about it. No one was, like you maybe should we should we think about. Jonah's the rightful king, like now, this question of bloodlines, which so dominated this season and not sorry, this season the series this, you know, this was all about blood lines. It was all about who deserves what it was not even a passing thought for the people in that discussion in that in that round table in kings moot. Not didn't no one. Even brought up the relevance of blood at all, which I thought was a beautiful new beginning, but it really felt like completely disregarding the central motivating issue at the heart of the series, especially considering that we saw various send out all of the lower sending out letters at the end of the last episode. See we think that was some of those letters would have made their way to the great houses. I mean, John did concord denarius. I mean I'm no expert in west Jerusalem law. But he has the claim he has the bloodline that you would think that maybe more people might consider him to be the king of the seven kingdoms, even if he didn't necessarily want that consideration. But as was pointed out, in my Twitter mentioned, hey. Oh. Well, we don't want to piss off grey worm, I know who the threat and the unsullied who don't even live here, and are not even staying here, like they won't say, yeah. They'll be there using who's who's going to rule the seven kingdoms. That's crazy. Can you imagine if like a different country if Canadians invaded us while we don't let these aren't powers metal with what's going on over here? Not going to happen. So the it on sullied they are not going to stand for it. Allegories. Oh, no. This is a work of fiction Stephen unsullied or not going to stand for j leading Jon snow be the be the king, the only stand for him living in exile. That's that's unsullied Justice. Yeah. That makes no sense. Right. Like either they would have killed him or they would have not cared. Yeah. But and Santa's like oh, we tried. My hands really tied here brand. I'm the on the, the north but. Still, it's going to be Casablanca for you. John. And then as soon as grey, worm is going. Why did they have to honor their commitment to grey worm again? Come back, someone with no political authority within west rose, the sale BAC, where would the three key going? Yeah. What are the death Raqi been doing for the last couple of weeks? They're not like a sit back and chill kinda group. Yeah. They were really like a foaming at the mouth during Danny speech there done sullied. It's kind of quiet crowd, but it's good to have like the doth Raqi there at your rallies. How did they hear her? Yeah. That's a good question. Maybe there's like somebody that like a relay person relay the message to the rest of the rest of the group. Yeah, it was a cool shot in during Danny's rallied to everybody where she's walking back. And then drove on. It's like flexing his wings behind her. And it looks like the wings are coming out of her that's playing eighties music video. It was like very arty, very symbolic little over the top. Yeah. I like the stuff in the first half of the episode better than the second half. Yeah. I felt like I agree with you. I thought I really I actually liked the real the beginning. I really like people were like how did Tyrian find find Jamie's hand. I didn't bother me like that was really moving with him kind of going through this place that has been his home, where, where that has been where he spent so much of the series, the sort of built up emotion of that. And then discovering his brother and his sister together. And I thought that was really beautiful scene. Tyrian was going to stabbed in when he like walked up. He comes right from seeing Jamie, and sir. See I that he stands right behind her at the rally. I thought he was going to either like pusher, or, or just come up behind her and stabbed her pin the hand with the hand pin. Yeah. That would've been something. Yeah. But she was like, you know, he came to three I don't want this. Yeah. Threw it down through it down the steps and got got taken away. Let let's talk about some of the other endings that we got tonight with the other characters. So after the big meeting, we got to see some other endings so Bryanne now a night of the king's guard is she leader of the, of the of the gold cloaks. I think so I think all of the king's guard, I think the Lord commanded, the king's guard is the one who does the book, right? And I think you at one of you either you were Josh, I thought it was you've maybe had speculated that you would see her filling in Jamie's entry and the king's guard, that's an original thought. To me. Maybe josh. In one of his articles and you get a lot of things right in terms of the ending. But I actually that was one of the more moving moments of the night for me when Jamie. Well, when Brienne was writing in Jamie's page in the book. And, you know, he died defending his Queen, you know, nothing about like anti was a rat bastard, who left me hanging. Yeah. Because once about time, Joffrey famously chastised Jamie four his page being somewhat left blank. Yeah. No, that that was a really I agree. That was probably one of the most moving parts of the story was her her filling that in and giving Jamie a really noble ending. I do think pre and close the book a little quickly. I worry he's project. And she, she actually was, like, wiping at it with her hand. She put her hand thoughtfully on it. I, I was worried about that, too. I mean you only have one of those books, then be real real real Boehner move to then get the smudge up the whole book on the first day on the job. Yeah, yeah, I got rip out a page, and knowing what now if you really cleanly along the seam. Yeah. Okay. So speaking of books, we saw Sam Sam well, who is a now, the grand Maistre, and he presents to teary in at the small council meeting. Hey, check out this new book, at least somebody finished these books, the song of ice and fire. What do you think of this name catchy, right? And he's the one who comes up with the name, but he did not write the book, contrary to what you had predicted. You did you did guessed that there would be a of the story, so you were like half, right? We'll give you fifty percent credit right? I mean how much of the time jump went by that Sam is Sam full-fledged? Maistre. Well, that's the thing like, doesn't take years and years till like nodding, the chain or whatever, you know, can someone just like, you know, elevated, can you maybe scared ran, like plugged into the matrix? Oh, yeah. Could be. So he gets. He gets the book and lays it down in front of Tyrian. It's the history of west row. Since Robert's rebellion bad news for Tyrian you got the purple edit, no screen time for you. Yeah. And that was great. It was a really funny moment to I thought that was a great like cheering trying to figure out what his legacy would be. He's written out entirely. Yeah. Whose perspective is the book told from probably a lot of, you know, it was like and this was like the Benny off Weiss version of the book. They like they didn't really know learning curve. So, like they was just like the big picture stuff. Yeah. Some of the characters made odd choices amid just wanted to get it done. Get it on brands desk. Yeah. Exactly. Brand said, look, hey, you guys have unlimited resources to finish the book and the majors were like. We're gonna work on other stuff. We're working on Star Wars book, right after this. We're, we're forward with this book. We. We need to finish it. We didn't talk about aria yet. Are you? We hold. I wanna talk about like the clean like the clean water like somehow there. Was that a reference to win Sam was cleaning, all of the all the chamber pots at the citadel that how he, he knows a little bit about this subject? I thought it was just them like using all of their wisdom, to, like make lives better. You know, refrigeration guys we need to figure out for generation too. So we can have more clean food last longer. Weird projects to start working on Braun is like, hey, why don't we work on the brothels? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's see what aria and our this was one that Josh called from from firm. Awhile, what's west rose? I thought Josh also told us that and I thought that he was going to die because I said that aria was going to die. But then. Did say that if she doesn't die, he could see her sailing for what's west of west rose. Yeah. No. He nailed it. That was. That was great. I think that was a really really great beat. And I think you know could suggest for calling it. Yeah. I would've loved to seen the end of the show with aria sailing off the edge of the world where if. It was a flat planet tos that they live on. And are you just heard a little boat just goes right off the edge of the map, and you see the turtle? Yeah. So what are is going off our girl sailing? Yeah. Are is sailing and Jonah's is at the night's watch and Santa is Queen of the north getting crowned. Yeah. Let's just talk about aria in terms of her her her character. It's really did seem like the closure for her character. Really did come when the hand said, hey, you don't want you don't want any of this, you don't want what I have you don't wanna be driven by vengeance. And are you says you're right? And that's that's really and then we just see aria try to escape from the city last week. And I thought that there was some reason why we saw so much of the carnage from Arias perspective. And then we saw aria with John in king's landing during the episode tonight. And I really thought that aria was going to have something to do with the story line. But no Johnson. Hey wait for me. That's the city. I think it's two things. I, I really do think that aria was just a great point of your character like ground us in someone's perspective as like witnessing this carnage. The other thing is that our east aria story has been this obsession with writing a killer and death and Vange and, you know, here she is on the ground seeing what that all leads to write. She seeing the real human results of all of that death and revenge. And you know. It changes her. I guess she's changed, and the sailing lady, and she's going to go sail for what's west of west rose? I did kind of think that at one point drogue on was also going to show up in torch, the aria ship. Yeah. That would have been that would've been something. And then she jumps up and stabs him. Yeah. Take take him out. Yeah. What was with brand saying, oh, maybe maybe I'll track down drogue on brand. Are you implying that you can walk into a dragon implying that you can remotely ward into a dragon because this would have been really useful a couple of weeks ago. Now he can only work into crows and just like checkout. What's happening? You walk into birds and see where drogue on. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's it. He's like I'm basically useless. But I can find things can you believe we did not see brand walk into a drag and then game of thrones, I know no almost the? Very, very, very little animal, working, the, the beg the best working that was done was brand organ, that was his. Yeah. Yeah. No dragon working people last week were saying that maybe that white horse was a brand warm and L. Nope. No working there almost like very little human, too dire. Wolf organ this season. Or in fact, the last number of seasons. So yeah, really, really good. All the wargin got kind of taken from us. Yeah. And then we also have Santa, she is Queen in the north the ruler, but also the last of the Starks. So I, I kind of feel like what's next for the stark family. What about brand is brand? They save father children. But they said that about Danny, and you refuse to believe it. Well witch said that about Danny. I'm imagining that, there that brand cannot procreate, who said that, about brand, though, I would trust the witch more than I would ever said that about brave. That's the next project that we have Sam and tear and work on. But yeah, I mean that no suitor for for. Samsa. I know that we speculated. Oh, are her interior. I'm going to get back together, but really not even the hint of a suitor for Sansa. Yeah. I actually think that was something else today like didn't love about the end. It was I expected there to be more of an emotional need from these characters for each other and. Nope. They're all off doing their own thing. No one seems particularly bereft they're all kind of, like moving onto the next thing that was a fun adventure. We had over the last couple years. Let's. What's next, and maybe that was false expo clear. That was a false expectation of mine, but I would have liked to send a little bit of romance. Like, what's where are any of the houses? We know that I guess, like Barath Ian Genry is Lord of storm's end. There's no real Tyrians is the lies like the last Lancaster. Yes. Yeah. They're all kind of, you know, none of these houses are really thriving. Yeah. All these houses are dying out. I think that the wheel is broken whether anybody wants to admit it or not, and target audience, like there's no note more. Targe aeriens, either only John snow. Yeah. He's not allowed to have kids. I'm not allowed to have any kids, so you believe there is a secret area baby. Danny may have had. She had it. We'll never. We'll never know. We used to Dabo Swinney was on the small council and didn't go with Gandhari. Yeah. That was a weird choice and he's the master of ships. It makes sense. I guess so. I mean who's who's advising Kendari? He's he's he's learned so many things on his way up from the bottom. He doesn't need the Lord's advice. Okay. Steven it's been a wild six weeks for game of thrones. And I know we have a lot of questions that we're gonna answer our feedback show on Tuesday or Wednesday with Josh, I'm sure Joshua million articles up at round Howard or t HR dot com slash game of thrones. But if you wanna get your feedback questions in, we'll cover them all later on this week post show wreak or feedback post show recaps dot com or geo post show recaps dot com. Stephen, what's the legacy of game of thrones after this wild six weeks? What do you mean with all? What's the legacy? The show came in this was V event of the year. The last great show of the PTV era and expectations could not have been higher for the final season. And it seems like that. The overall response has been very sour. Yeah. I agree. And I think it's interesting to see to we're just coming off this survivor finale, where. Also, very, very passionate response to what was perceived as a completely undeserved ending to that show as well. And I do think like this just where we are in zeitgeist. It's like I think, like the, the interesting thing is much about how much ownership fans feel for the shows that they love as it is even about the shows this owning like I don't know what this show could've done to live up to my head to my expectations. I'm not like blaming anyone else like I'm blaming myself here for like my sky-high expectations. I don't know. Do you feel like there's any element of we just demand too much? I don't know if people demand too much. I, I feel like that a lot of the gripes with the final season. I think are justified, I know at times that I was not as hard on the show. I think that if we're going to look back at if we're gonna rank the gripes first and foremost, the evil turn of the narrowness just came to quickly and without enough provocation. And I think that in terms of Ankara gripe, by the way, we're really fun game. I'm really ranked the gripes. I think that that's that's, that's number one. And I think that, that one is still justified. I think that that's the one where even going back and rewatching the series. I feel like that. It changes the character of Dinara so much interior reset. Oh, she when, when she burned the masters nobody cared. And when she did this nobody. But it was it was like respon-. Ending by the way like fans thought that was funny. Remember, guys, remember, all those, those things that she did in the past justify this action? Yeah. But still, I don't think we're ever going to come around on. Okay. Well, I can see her side of burning all the townspeople of king's landing, and then we've opened the show this week, was sort of, like touring the carnage, and it really seemed like that switch has been flipped for deniro's that I don't know if we're ever going to come back from it. I think that's that's gripe number one, gripe, number two. The battle of with the white walkers to dark. Too dark. Yeah. And also to, to suddenly over like this world, the world destroying threat is ended in a blink of an eye with almost like and you see these armies that are still standing there and this episode all the unsullied or matter what it was, it was this threat that had been there, the whole series and was like over in a blink of an eye. Yeah. And then griped number three John didn't pet ghost. Tonight. They that they were able to save themselves from now of cross cross that one up. And I think that is what would you say? It was a gripe number three for the season. I mean gripe, number three it might be brain. I mean I don't know. I actually like is brand. I'm still like processing tonight. I don't know yet. How I feel about brand being the one on the on the iron throne or not on the air and throwing but brand being the constitutionally elected monarch? Not even the constitution is just like we'll get together and the head of the parliament. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I don't know what the next with the next gripe would be. I'm trying to think what do you think that top one is? Yeah. I think that it's not enough, not enough character deaths. Usually like we've spent so much time. Like preparing ourselves to be totally bereft by all these character deaths and like who, who died of the major characters from the start like Danny died? And I mean Jay means. Reggie, Danny Damian, seriously die. But like other, none of the other major major care, you yell. There's some secondary characters but not the other like big characters type. Right. Right. The not, not a lot of Allister's ended up dying a lot of B-list seal listers along the way here in season, eight, and so we, we end up with, with this, Stephen, and ultimately, all of our heroes end up going their own separate ways the four surviving kids of Ned stark, they end up going in four different directions. At the end of the steps out. Yeah. I mean, some people thought corny I actually kinda liked it when it was cutting between the four of them sort of going off and doing their own things like so much of this series has been about how traumatize these kids are how. How each one of these kids has just been pulled by all of these different forces. And, you know, there was this article that was making the rounds about from scientific American or something about how game thrones used to be a sociological story. And now it's a psychological story about how it used to be, how institutions impact people and now it's about how people make their own decisions and what I thought was really cool about this. It seemed to me like this was a moment of where that shift made sense. You know, we're the stark kids had been the victims of institutions in the past, but now they're growth was that they were each kind of off pursuing their own destiny. They all been so thrust everywhere around the realm, and now Santa was pursuing her destiny as, as north Arias going off and Philip fulfilling herself as an adventure west of west rose. And then, John, of course, is, is going is with his people in the Nightwatch is, are you going to be very disappointed when she? Realize what's west of west roses, carp? Exactly this place stinks. Yeah. Yeah. Who knows? I hope that this is spin off series prob Arias adventures. Yes, she ends up finding Dario and everybody in slavers bay. Yeah. Syria for oh, probably be there. Their game of thrones. Prequel is going to start getting a lot of hype. Now, Stephen are you more interested in a game of thrones prequel following this accepts owed run? Is it gonna be light as good as better? Call Saul slipping aria. I it's not going to be. He's way, way in the past slipping brand the builder. He sleeps the ice. Yes that, are you interested in going back to this world with characters that are not from what we just saw for eight years? Yeah, I think I definitely I mean I love this world. I think it's really fun. It's so rich. They could says so much the history so well established. What about yourself? You know what I have to say that just innovation cume, the story of the first men and children of the forest? And if it's not super exciting to me. I don't care about that. Is that is that what it is? It's the first men and the children of the forest, I think that's what it has to do with maybe bureaucratic politics. That's what I'm saying is that I really loved, where I fell in love with the show was about all of the king's landing maneuvering and little finger and everything that was going on with the politicking in king's landing. I do think that it has. To do more with sort of the, the age of heroes. That's too bad. Yeah. No. I think it's funny like kind of what I mean it's kind of this sound like I'm really trying to thread the needle, but it's kind of the ship that survivor had to where it's like what we love is the politicking in the backstabbing, and it's going much more into like the age of heroes. Yeah. We're going to see the creation of the wall and all that stuff. Okay. One of the prequels is going to be about Valerian says the infamous gape. Oh, there we go. Yeah. Okay. So we be about the doom that came to perhaps, perhaps. Posted to I think. It's going to be, I think post doom would be tough. Yeah. Not much going on. Area, where are you going to answering some your feedback questions? Tweet them away at rob sister, Nino and we will get those answer for you. But I think our sponsor for game of thrones finale recap, and those are friends are blue diamond almonds. And if you're watching game of thrones, you've got to be tired of the same boring snacks. Because let me tell you winter is here. Winter was seemingly here tonight, Stephen and so is the perfect snack blue diamond almonds. Whether you're going to work bored at work leaving work sailing west of west arose are the perfect snack Honey roasted flavor. Dahmane's Saracho flavored almonds with Sabi and soy sauce. Flavored almonds, do I have your attention? Is that how John got past drogue on the first time that he had to have a pocketful of blue diamond almond? Stephen this Russia almonds drug on love this. Why keep snacking on boring chips when you can go to the store and pick up blue diamond ins ROY. Ins right now is perhaps the only way that this game of thrones ending could have been more satisfying is maybe if Sam well or hot pie. Maybe brought out a tray of blue diamond almonds to serve to the small council and that was how they came up with democracy is because like they were also sated that they were like you know what? Let's, let's invent a mockery. All right. So whatever the moment blue dominance is the perfect snack. Don't cravings go pick up some great flavors right now and eat them blue diamond almonds crave. Victoriously. Okay. Let's go ahead and take a look at what people are saying to us on Twitter, just just put paint on the snow versus ash. I think ash still that I it was really piling up. I think that we officially got winter. I think it was Ashley last week and the ask this is like some sort of a nuclear way there, isn't it? It was very even those very sunny last week, I think the ash bowl blacked out the sky to the point that then we got real snow. But van but, like we saw drogue on, like, nestled at and that was to me that was because I drove on didn't like the cold. And so I think that drove on would not have nestled in like a giant, snow pile wasn't ash. Let us know. Okay. Lily wants to know. Is it are you hop on that white horse just for the cinematic of it seemed like she was planning on ditching and turn right back around? Did she get on the horse? I don't even actually remember that. I know that there was a horse that she like saws. Did she get on it? I think she wrote off on the horse. She didn't get on the horse. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Do you. What do you got off the horse? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Then Steve wants to know what if Giora hadn't died, how would Danny have been different and what would be his role. Yeah. I definitely think that was someone who seemed to be able to get through to Danny. I think Danny what was part of the key chain last week? Really seemed to be that Danny felt so isolated. Right. That all of her advisors were against her, and the, the one person who she hopes she could trust was probably her biggest challenger to, to her claim and having juror there might have been met have been different. Yeah. Okay. Let's go with some other questions. Lots of people so. Jokes more jokes questions. Caney says we we spent so much quality. I'm watching. Are you learn to be a faceless man? And for what Walder fray, I guess, aria has my vote for returning player in a spin off the aria becomes a faceless. Man story was the juice worth the squeeze. I mean, I hold her afraid was one of the big villains of this show. Right. Like he caused the red wedding. Like seeing all the phrased I it was one of my most satisfying moment. So I think it was worth it. Okay. Berry says that John didn't end up with the knights watch he left with the Wild Wings and torment. The John leave his post as a washer that makes was he just going north. That's interesting. I thought that they were like taking a scout. But I guess the real people there with him. That was not how I read that, but it certainly would make sense like he became a wildly. Well, that's interesting. That's a really interesting. Take. John, then he's really like, manse raider. Right. Because that's basically exactly what mass rated it. Right. But I don't know. I can't imagine that John who's all about duty and honor. And if you've been assigned to the to the night's watch let's he gets what night's watch there's nobody here on leave it. Yeah. Yeah. And he's like, you know, he's he's had a traumatic thing he's allowed to change. You know, he he wants like simple simple domestic life. You know, he wants to be among the free folk. What man's wanted? So can he married? Can he take? They don't really marry in the free folk, right? Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Okay. All right. That they will. Yes, they go past the wall. But I thought they were on, on, on a mission may not just like it was like warriors. It seemed to be a lot of work. There were kids. Yeah. Yeah. So, so maybe they were why determine wait to why wait at the wall that I guess that they were her John was coming, but that was a long time. I mean, they all road south and they had the big battle, and then there was the trial and they all came north like brand told him before he left, like hang out. Yeah. Okay. Let's see. Still some more questions coming in. Steve says they need a master of war. Can they get Dario to do that? Oh, yeah. That's, that's fine. He's like ruling marinas and yeah. Well, maybe if our runs into him when she goes west of west rose, okay? Mr. K seventeen. Do you think that DND would've act? One of the first two episodes and replaced it with a more in depth storyline for Danny and others. Would it made it little little difference? Yeah. I do think like an extra episode here would have maybe a little bit more padding would have been all felt like they were hitting their points so quickly. And in the season that has felt really long. It's been on a really long time if the, the rush felt particularly hard to to, but I would hate to lose. I did. The they probably got the least criticism. But I mean it was a really weirdly constructed season where we were at a snail's pace. Episodes one and two. Yeah. And then a breakneck pace at times and episodes, four five six. Yeah. I mean to really nothing happened. But it was the best episode of the season. Yeah. Just sort of like the countdown for the night, king coming. Yeah. Okay, Stephen really worry about because like, not that many people died noth-, while, I think a lot of red shirts died, but they were all like look at those that army. Didn't the death Raqi all charge indicted. No. There were tons of death rocky there. Okay. Nicole wants to know getting what we know about who sits on the throne was the reveal Ray guard tar Garin storyline worthless. I mean the work. Yeah, it is interesting because that reveal did not end up actually having a strong impact on the John and Danny storyline. You could have the same storyline without almost without her knowing that he challenged her claim it would be very slightly different if it was just he loved her. But it turned out that she, you know, she was going crazy. He's not motivated in any way, shape or form by bloodline and she barely was maybe just a little bit of like antagonism between the two. But it will you get that her knowing John had the better claim and everybody John having a lot of support was one of the things that pushed her over the edge. Zo you that? And it was like that was one of the things, but it wasn't like eight driving part really wasn't. It didn't seem like that was the motivating factor. But the. I guess it was fuel for her reasoning for what she did last week. A very small part. Yeah. Yeah. And that was a good for what it was for the show. I mean, like they were like three separate episodes where like brand, slowly on remember, like how many how long it took for brand to get inside the tower of joy he was, like almost there. And then like, not yet not yet you gotta go back a little, it was like it was almost like the length of the entire season six brand just trying to get into the tower joy. So. You know, the amount of time spent establishing this giant twist was really disproportionate to the impacted had on the actual show. Okay. All right. Is that a bad thing like some of game of the whole point of game of thrones is that the people that deserve the have the correct bloodline are never going to get the art? They're not gonna have their traditional hero journey. Okay. Whatever the Gilly. Yeah, she's often old town, isn't she SAM's with Gilly? I don't know. Maybe, maybe he's commuting a they rebuild king's landing. It looked pretty nice. You know, nicely carved chairs there at the end. Okay. All right. Inlaid hand. All right. Steven anything else about the game of thrones finale tonight, I want your you know, rob, we started this. Stephen thumbs up down. Rob thumbs up down this finale. Yeah, it was for me. Just, you know, I don't think I say, oh, it's the worst really really wasn't. I, I don't think that it was. I say it was it was fine. It was fine. I don't think it was great. I don't think it was terrible are revise my answer to them sideways to that. I like that better. It was. It really was I felt like that. There was no no big surprise for me. Along the way. Yeah. And it didn't have the emotional punch, but. Yeah. I mean Brandon the iron I mean it feels like a terror. It felt like a terrible choice in the moment, but I actually think I might be able to get behind it with time. I'm really I'm era here. Josh has to say that I can just agree with whatever he says. Yeah. I look. That's where we do these shows right after the episode. So, you know all the pieces get ridden after we talk about it. But. I'm excited about it. I think that if it does play out this way in the books. I think people will be more excited about it because I think that brand in the books, people actually, like brand in the books as opposed to brand, the TV character, who nobody cares about. Yeah. It was such a weirdo. Enormous weirdo. Mindy bond has a good question deteriorate. Wanna get it on with Danny? He did say, I loved her not as successfully as you. Yeah. I don't think that that was what he meant. I don't successfully. There was creepy scene. We're outside the cabin. You know, maybe you know he had a crush on her. But I don't think pursued it not like an. Yeah. All right. So let's wrap things up. Cbo's a pleasure to talk about game of thrones with your after all these the pleasure was mine. It was such a fun thing to, and it's fun to like piece it there, you know, so well that I also catching sterling to catch up. But it really kind yeah, it's been. It's been really fun for me to just to discuss it. Okay. Well at Stephen fish back on Twitter. I'm at pineapple. Boy, twenty seven on social media. Of course, I will be with Josh Wigley later on this week, once Josh digs out from all of the articles, and interviews that he's doing over at t HR we will be answering your game of thrones. Post finale feedback questions later on this week on poster recap send them in GIO, t post show recaps dot com or feedback I post show recaps dot com. Looking forward to all of that Steven have a great one. Take care. Already a good one. Bye. Tonight's game of thrones. Finale recap is sponsored by friends over a truecar every car comes with share of stories and brand knows all of them, that ding in your bumper, when you picked up a first date that luxury package, you got after a big promotion or the module, same riding your bike all summer long. Now while I can't put a price tag on your stories now with truecar you can at least find out what your car's worth when it's time to sell it or trade it in just go to truecar and simply enter your license, plate number and watch cars. Details pop up then answer a few questions, navigation moon roof watchers, they're going to bump up your car's value, high mileage Yuri knew it was gonna cost you. 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John John Danny Stephen west rose Tyrian Santa Tyrian John snow Sam Sam Josh Jon snow Jamie King Lear Twitter deniro Braun Jonah Steven Saracho
Hologram concerts as the ultimate encore

The Frame

27:21 min | 1 year ago

Hologram concerts as the ultimate encore

"From the Mon broadcast center. Ed K P C C is the frame I'm John horn on today's show net. Flicks is reportedly buying a movie theater what on earth four then the ghosts of ROY orbison Maria Callas or on tour we hear from the company that creates holograms of legendary musicians and ask about the ethical dilemmas involved. You know, if I wanted to I could have had ROY doing backflips and Maria Callas singing and Eminem song, but they never would do that. So we did not do that. And an experimental staging of king. Leered leaves the star of the story offstage all that coming up on the frame. Hod cast supported by cinema made in Italy. And magnolia pictures dog man from the director of Gomorrah is a crime thriller. That tells a story of vengeance. Where only the strong survive best actor winner at the twenty eighteen Ken film festival opens April twelfth in New York and LA. Welcome to the fray mom, John horn, Netflix move further into the film business yesterday with its reported plan to purchase the historic Egyptian theater in Hollywood net. Flicks. His first ever brick and mortar movie house the AGIP shin is owned and operated by the nonprofit American cinematheque. And it's programmers will continue screening classic movies, tributes and retrospectives at the theater on the weekends. But will have in Hollywood based movie theater mean for Netflix. As the streaming giant strives to be a bigger Oscar contender is it just a fancy place to stage premieres and parties or the first step of a bigger plan to take a closer look at the net. Flex announcement. I called up. And Thomson she's editor at large at any wire. And she addressed Netflix motivation in buying the junction or place has been enhancing its awards profile and putting a lot of energy into taking over the Raleigh studios and putting on all of these dog and pony shows for the Emmys and for the Oscars. And so what's going on? They're getting points for philanthropy. They're getting brownie points inside Hollywood for doing a good thing. And then they're getting a screen nice big juicy screen and a space that they can use for all of this award stuff. It isn't necessarily about them becoming exhibitors, I would suggest that seems to be something that a lot of people are conflicting now that flicks. And you and I were both at cinema con last week was a big topic of conversation because Netflix does not follow the traditional release pattern of when movies premiere in theaters versus when they premiere on streaming, sir. Services, and there's been talk about net flex looking into and perhaps buying a theatrical exhibition chain, but the cinematheque doesn't really solve the fundamental problem and that is will net. Flicks movies play theatrically an a national platform before they appear on the streaming service. So they still face that issue. And that issue still might be a problem with net flicks. And the academy is that right? You're correct. Although in my conversations at net flicks. I realize that the windows impasse is not anywhere close to being resolved. And we just have to fundamentally different business models, and what the theater owners really want is for net flicks. With just a few movies year, the big high profile movies, they would love to play the Irish men the new Martin Scorsese movie, but they will not book it if it's going to be on a subscription platform streaming within a few weeks. Basically, I do think that net. Flicks could play ball with the theaters more than they're doing now and really book their movies and really declare their box office and let their movies play. And then move them off and put them on the platform just a few of them. And that's where we're heading for the moment that windows impasse is firm. And they're going to have to go to independent cinemas if they want to show their movies in theaters. No, I think you raise a really good point. I mean movie theater owners right now want their films to play and it's not set in stone. But generally, it's around three months or ninety days, and that doesn't work in the net flicks model and the national association of theatre owners has made the case that if you want your movie to stand apart on a streaming service the best way to distinguish it is to have a theatrical run, you have this big Martin Scorsese film with Robert deniro with Al Pacino was called the Irishman it caused a parallel upwards of one hundred and seventy five million dollars. Yes, theater owners would wanna have it? But they're not gonna take it. If they only get it for a couple of weeks is it possible that net flicks can show some of its movies for more than a night at the AGIP tion, or is this really going to be just a place for premieres and events and not really a theater that would book a movie that Netflix produces for a longer period of time way, raising the question of what is the agenda? And the Egyptian is is really not a first run movie house. It's repertory cinema and a book independent stuff for a few days or where they do series or they do film festivals and the current programming team at the American cinematheque is gonna continue booking it on the weekends. According to my sources, so until that changes they would need to book at for a whole week and including the weekend. So I suspect it's just an opening of a door that they can explore further later on. But right now, they would still be booking the landmark or something like that. I think the real issue going forward is whether or not Netflix has the money, and will certainly probably have the money to buy a theater chain. I think that is a natural evolution. They're not a lot of chains that are on the block, and certainly they cost a lot of money is that you think a potential work around for net. Flicks. Rather than renting theaters on a case by case basis as they did with Roma d-, actually, try to buy a national chain. Maybe not a huge one and that way have theatrical footprint that maybe get some some box office numbers. And maybe makes the academy. Not quite as antagonist. What's fascinating to me is the idea that you have someone like Scotts tuber over at Netflix, who's running their original content movies and he comes from the studios, and he knows the studios. He knows exactly how it works. And he is trying to talk to exhibitors and trying to figure out where the where the middle ground might be into and talk boss. Ted serandon does into some of this stuff. Because he's trying to get the filmmakers. That's what it's about. It's getting Scorsese in quad own and people like that to bring their movies over to net flicks. When most movies directors want their movies to be in theaters. They want the bells and whistles Jon CHU. I'm you may have heard this at at cinema Kahn gave a very eloquent speech about what being in movie theaters did for crazy rich Asians, including making movie stars out of the cast. These are real things that happen in theaters and filmmakers, no it. But Ted surround us had an opportunity to buy a theater chain, the landmark theater chain the chain. And he let Charles Columbine it. He kicked the tires said. This is a business. I don't want to be in and walked away. Thompson is editor at large at Indy wire. And thanks so much for coming on the show. It was my pleasure ton. Coming up ROY orbison Maria Callas are no longer alive, but they're back on tour. Thanks to a hologram. Ever since a hologram of the late two packs? A core appeared onstage at the Coachella music festival. Seven years ago, people have been asking should dead musicians. Get an encore onstage. My guest today is hologram entrepreneur, mardi Tudor, and he certainly thinks the answer is. Yes, he and Brian Becker run base hologram. It's a production company. That specializes in re animating musical legends, including ROY orbison and opera singer Maria Callas, there holograms are remarkably realistic, and they perform onstage with live musicians, occasionally, the holograms engage in theatrics or present at one point rises up from below the stage and callous magically suspends a deck of cards in mid air. But for the most part base, hologram prides itself on authentic representations called from indepth research and collaborations with artist, friends and families. Tutor has been in the entertainment industry for a long time both in lighting design and artists management. He spoke with me about getting into hologram production and the technical and ethical obstacles that followed. I hearken back to my theater days and routes because really what we're doing is putting on a theatrical show here, we are not pretending that the artist is still here or making the audience believe that the artists is still here. What does happen which is fascinating is when you watch it because we use a mixture of the hologram along with live people on stage. So in the case of our Maria Callas hologram there's fifty musicians on stage, plus a live conductor. What happens is even though you consciously know that it's not a live person your watch. Using your brain at some point just begins to accept it. As being a person. I've seen this hundreds of times now, and it still happens to me I like to dig into the psychology of that. I'm watching Maria Callas or ROY orbison perform is it footage from existing performances in the past. Or are you creating that from scratch there is the possibility to take performances from the past and this technical rota scoping where you can basically cut out a person from an existing piece of film, but we have found that you can't really do that especially with the older artists like Maria Callas in ROY orbison, you know, the quality of the footage is really lacking. So we wind up in this case with both of them created it from scratch, and we do that exactly the same way they created the Peter Cushing character in the last Star Wars movie or Carrie Fisher in that same move. Movie we use a body double who who creates a performance. And then we do a lot of computer graphics work on that to make it look like the person you obviously are having performances where somebody may never have seen somebody like ROY orbison perform live, but he's certainly played with a lot of -sition who are still around. Have you ever had a chance to show one of you are holograms to somebody who knew it was like to be onstage with that person? I actually have not, unfortunately, certainly in the case of callous, the majority of the people that were on stage with her have passed, although when we were creating or callous, we did very very deep research into her and we found a gentleman who is now in his and either late eighties early nineties. His name is Paul Huntley. And he's one of the most famous hair design. Owners on Broadway who actually had his fingers in Maria, calluses hair and did her hair. And so he consulted to us on that as well. As the case of callous, I sought out a director or creative director on that project is a gentleman by the name of Stephen Wadsworth. And Steven is the head of the opera department at Juilliard as well as a staff director at the Metropolitan Opera and has directed operas all over the world Scala etcetera, and he also directed show on Broadway called masterclass which was about Maria Callas. So, you know, we dig deep to find people with the knowledge, and and the credibility to bring these people alive, quote, unquote, we're talking with mardi tutor about his production company base hologram when you are talking to the family. Or a state of an artist who is no longer with us. Those conversations have to be kind of legally complicated, but also kind of morally complicated because you're talking about somebody who is no longer alive, and you're essentially kind of re animating them in a kind of almost divine way. Well morally and ethically. We are committed to giving an authentic reproduction if you will of the artist, and we do interface very very intensely with the estates in the case of orbison. His three sons were with us and involve with us literally every step of the way, it was. They who helped us decide what the show would be what the musical lineup would be or clothing choices or guitar literally. Everything was as it was you know, if I wanted to I could have. Had ROY doing backflips, and I could have had Maria Callas singing and Eminem song if I wanted to. But. They never would do that. So we did not do that for us. It never really was an ethical question to me, it becomes an ethical question. When you when you have them do things that they never did. Or never would do. Love my. Then. When you have the ability to create a performer essentially at any time period. How do you decide what part of their career at what age you wanted to pick them because you can make a choice with ROY orbison ago twenty or thirty years in either direction. How do you settle on the the time period that you chose? That's a really great question. We look at an artist, and we look at where there's zenith if you will was in their career and the case of Roy's a really good example because he had many ups and downs. So there was an early in his career. He was enormous, and then kind of waned, and then he came back again, and it kind of Wayne and then he came back again. And so we chose what boy look like around when he did the traveling Wilbur Aries and. And we did that because that's the ROY that most people remember and can relate to so. So we try and choose a period when today's audiences still have them in their memories, you're not just limiting your work right now to concerts. You're also working with people like Jack Horner who is a paleontologist who consulted on a drastic park movies with something called Jack Horner's world of dinosaurs. What's the idea there, where do you see the technology being used for an event or series of events like that well with that that's a museum oriented exhibit? And we are planning to have Jack be there with you and taking you through a dig, and then showing you how dinosaurs evolved and what his current beliefs are about. And how they looked and you will see life size dinosaurs in three D onstage. There's a quote in Jurassic Park. Yeah. But you're scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could they start to show to those people who say to you. And I'm not talking about the estates who are uncomfortable with the ethics of this whole idea. Even if the state is on board what he said to them. What's your counter argument? Well, I don't think that this is anything different than when you go to the movie theater, and you watch a movie and someone's on screen that has passed. I when you watch some like it hot on your TV, and and Marilyn Monroe and Tony Curtis, and, you know, their on screen, you don't think that's off or strange. And so this is the same thing in different format. That's all so much of watching a live performance is not just hearing the. Zik or that evening's interpretation of the music, but watching the performers interact. You can't do that. Really? When you have somebody who's locked into a performance. Oh, how much of that part of performance is lost through the technology. Is there any way to compensate for it? Well, interesting question because we use love musicians on stage. And so there is that spontaneity that exists with those musicians between them but not with hauling themselves. That's right. But you know, I can easily argue that if you go see I don't know who it is. Or I do know who'd as, but I won't say there are many artists that do exactly the same show every single time. So this is no different than that. Mardi tutor is the CEO of base hologram productions Marty thanks so much. Thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it. Base holograms callous in concert will be at US's bovine auditorium. This Saturday April thirteenth coming up on the frame and experimental production of King Lear that keeps the king in the wings. KPCC podcast supported by cinema made in Italy. And magnolia pictures presenting dog man, a sly crime thriller from the award winning director of Gomorrah winner of the best actor award at the twenty eighteen canned film festival and the European film awards dog man tells the story of vengeance. Where only the strong will survive official selection of telluride and Toronto film festivals. And the winner of nine Italian Oscars, including best picture director screenplay and actor opens Friday, April twelfth in New York and Los Angeles, welcome back to the frame. I'm John horn one way to gear up for this. Sunday's return of HBO's game of thrones is to revisit another classic bloody battle over a kingdom a castle country this week the source material company is staging King Lear the American premiere of its experimental production as the frame contributor Marco's tells us these artists decided it was better to cut the king out of this. Zhou entirely. In Shakespeare's, King Lear, the aging monarch of Britain is tired. And he wants to step down from his throne and divide up his riches and responsibilities. So he decides to test is children. To see which of the three is most worthy of his wealth. And with that the king challenges his daughters to prove who loves him. The most. You probably know where it goes from there. The eldest daughter's flattered their father and get everything while the youngest cordelia angers him, so King Lear banishes her from the court. Eventually, the king goes crazy and loses everything and in the end CRA Delia is killed. No, please. I'm only can have costume come on. The source material theater company at the twist in Shakespeare's classic tragedy. Prison. Sing like of the cage in this production. The king isn't seen on stage. All down and beg the forgiveness. Here's company founder Samantha shea. I will say, you know, it's really funny being in American theatre again because there's a lot more rules. Shea is an American theatre artists who trained to Cal arts, but has been working overseas for the past several years. This is her first production back in the states since mounting show for the twenty fourteen Hollywood fringe festival. It's like you can't touch that cable or something like that. I'm like what what is that? You know, it's like in Poland. I could have candles, and you know, like things through the air and no one cared. And now, it's like you can't touch that plastic. That's a legal unlike okay, Jay grew up in what she calls a magical farming village in Massachusetts not far from Boston. She would travel into Cambridge to see shows at the American repertory theater. She's still remembers seeing its production of Jean Paul Sartre s-, no exit in which three actors had to balance a moving stage all night using nothing but their bodies, it was this visual composition, like energetic force running the entire play. It was just master fly was only sixteen when I saw it. And I think that showed me an example of how doing. Something sort of unconventional can completely elevate. A text. Even though she loved existential French masterpieces just as much as any teenager American classics captured her attention to. I always wanted to do theatre and be an actress from a very young age. I was very into, you know, the sound of music and Julie Andrews. Audrey Hepburn and old movies more than like, the animated ones, and I would act them out walk. My eyebrows. Down on the right where they would act out all the movies in my living room full on costumes. And then if anyone walked and I'd be like you have to leave right now. It was just so personal for me. I wasn't ready to share it with other people. I guess my mom would be like you have to go. She's childhood love for details. Especially music and sound now inspire her to create art that asks audience members to listen as much as watch. If we were. For king. Their production is a prime example of an audio rich experience where the script is more often soundtrack than spoken text. It's lace with music and movement, which often replace those celebrated lines and scenes that you might remember studying in high school or college, even though we're not seeing the scenes, we're not hearing certain lines that are super famous or certain moments and some characters we don't meet every single aspect of this performance comes from the text shea is quick to point out her excitement to play with structure, blending lines and combining characters from Shakespeare's script. The biggest surprise here is that the figurehead in the story King Lear himself is all but forgotten. Shakespeare, there's a lot of mothers who are absent the mothers, always missing. So I thought what if the mother was there? And then decided I just had this feeling like, oh, that's Dita is on. And it was really funny because I hired her. And then she called me, and she was like, I'm pregnant. Into these are questions that I ask myself every day. That's actress Dita Berkeley who plays the mother, a newly imagined character conjured up just for this show in terms of parenthood. But also in terms of what kind of human beings are running this world. And what choices we make? And how we become who we become. Samantha shave brings in Berkeley's, baby. Cute. Newborn named Nankai. While his real mom is busy playing mother on stage. The other actors form sort of a tribe of surrogate. Mothers for Dita Berkeley to help care for the child. Of course, it's a little bit difficult for me sometimes too. I feel slight schizophrenia. But the baby's presence. She says is a reminder that the characters in this play must constantly confront questions about caring for other people from the very old to the very young. For the frame. I'm markus. Naked. The source material companies production of King Lear is at the bootleg theater in LA from Thursday through Sunday. And that's it for today. I'm John horn. Thanks for listening. We're back here tomorrow.

ROY orbison Maria Callas Netflix Flicks John horn director King Lear Martin Scorsese King Lear Italy New York Shakespeare Hollywood editor Samantha shea Mon Eminem LA AGIP shin Emmys
Family fighting sends U-Haul on a detour

Spectacular Failures

35:47 min | 1 year ago

Family fighting sends U-Haul on a detour

"<music> Claudine obeyed mcelwain is a self-described very bad driver. Her friends actually categorized her driving skills as the worst so I don't know why I thought it was okay for me to drive a U-haul from from Washington D._C.. To Boston by the last leg of the ten hour drive wedding was in doing so great she kept missing turns and it didn't help that her boyfriend Colin with whom she was making the move was being a total taxi driver and he's like you're supposed I told him and just were definitely at this point both at our you're breaking up spraying. I'm like you don't live with me here. You're GonNa go move somewhere else. <music> cloudy and eventually navigated the U.. Haul onto storrow drive a two mile long parkway with what locals would probably call wicked low clearance and I look up and I'm like there's a tunnel and this wasn't great eight news because the tunnels that it was the same height as a truck now. There's an entire sub-genre of youtube fail videos dedicated to rental trucks not fitting under tunnels spoiler alert. They don't end well. I mean we're the hell. Are you supposed to go right right so right there. In the middle of the very harrowing store Oh Dr Surrounded by drivers that some people like whole mass holes Claudine made an executive decision. I decide the smartest thing for me to do regardless of like where the lines are in the roads to go down the very center of this tunnel because that will be the highest point and my boyfriend's like what you're going to be straddling two and I'm a shut up. That's what we're doing. Sh- Claudine decided to take it slow like really slow. I'm like so freaked out that I'm not GONNA fit that. I'm driving like five miles. An Hour. People are like honking and screaming and like leaning the windows and Collins like just driving. I'm like shut Claudine hunched and fear around the steering wheel while Colin White knuckled the door somehow we it does like it just fits and and then we get over on the other side now if you can get through a u-haul move together you can probably get through anything. Claudine and Collins stuck it out and got married and vowed never to move themselves ever again. Claudine gene is far from alone in her U-HAUL related family. Drama plenty of spouses and siblings and parents and children have buckled under the stress of a D._I._y.. Move Another family that suffered U hauls founding family the Schoen's U. Haul is one of America's largest family run businesses. It was founded by Leonard Samuel shown in nineteen forty five he went by L._S.. As enterprise the multibillion dollar company is in unequivocal success. You can't get on a highway way in America today and not see a u-haul truck or trailer but while the business succeeded the family did not there were attempted therapy sessions fistfights in the boardroom and even accusations of murder and the outcome was a family family fractured in two thousand tiny pieces. I'm Lauren over an from American public media and the Carlson School Management University of Minnesota. This is spectacular failures the show where we let failure into our lane on the highway even though it's terrible emerging growing up in Oregon during the Great Depression L._S. shown learned to hustle family didn't have much so as a kid. L._S. worked on farms and helped his family with a variety of small businesses. Show those were formative experiences. The caused my father to be pretty determined hardworking working guy that's Mike shown the second of thirteen kids and the only one of the shown siblings who responded to our queries. L._S. worked his way through college by running a chain of barber and beauty shops eventually he enlisted in the Navy but while in the Navy L._S. contracted rheumatic fever which wasn't so bad because it gave him a lot of time to scheme at the time when he was laying in bed recovering from Ramadi fever in in the navy why he was trying to figure out how to transport his wife and his blog gains from southern California back to his what would be as home somewhere near Portland Oregon. L._S. was hardly alone and trying to figure out how to pack up his life on the base and move back home. It was really a time of expansion within the United States after the war you had a lot of military coming home and the jobs weren't necessarily where they had grown up and of course the generation in the military had been used to moving. That's Amy Helmand she's the dean of Arizona State University's business school and also a member of the Independent Governance Committee of Americo U Hauls Parent Company after I had no options to move there things they either needed to rent a trailer and return it to the same place for they rented it so California to Oregon in back or they needed to hire professional movers or they needed to to fit in their car. LS and his wife Mary ended up choosing option three. They packed up their car and transported all their belongings from California to Oregon but necessity being the mother of invention and all the pair new. There had to be a better underway so here's what L._S.. Anna Mary came up with you rent a trailer from their new company U-HAUL drive to your destination and leave it at one of u hauls partner service stations that had agreed to provide storage of the trailers for cut of the Prophet Pretty Simple right but what if your destination didn't have a partner location I they said okay if you're going to run a trailer and you're gonNA drop it off in a city that we don't have any representatives. Try to find someone that looks reputable and leave the trailer with them and hand them this package that says congratulations. You're a new U-HAUL dealer. illman says one of the most remarkable parts of early U-HAUL was that it was built on trust trust that the service station partners would be on the up and up trust that customers wouldn't steal the trailers or get them stuck in a tunnel somewhere or light them on fire trust that you can make this totally bonkers idea work eventually LSS faith would be eroded but in the beginning trusting Lakewood workout just fine line all rental businesses are built on trust to some degree but you can't rent people things if you don't have anything to Rent L._S.. The Capital D. by a bunch of trailers so he Barda book from the library about welding and cobbled together some early u-haul prototypes types shout out to libraries the D._I._y.. Spirit of those early trailers was the first pillar of U-haul the second was family. A lot of the employees were relatives and the all came from this <hes> uh you know honest sort of a hard working environment and they were happy to be a part of something where they could see advancement and they they could see progress rather than just working for a wage. That's it's not gonNA ever change from U hauls earliest days. It was a family business. Mike shown remember is being put to work at the early age nine and I worked in a little fabrication place for remade trailers and I- I swept I do little jobs and I got a Coca Cola lunchtime. I remember that eventually Mike and his brother Sam graduated to a proper wage a dollar a day to do some entry level punch-card computing. Don't spend it all in one place these guys as you grew. L._S. was on the road all the time. He started out doing this thing pretty much on his own by the Sivas pants he would show up in these backwaters with a toothbrush and a smile and a change of underwear and talk people into deals. That's Alan Prendergast. He's a writer who profiled L._S. for the L._A.. Times magazine and he wants bragged about eating at McDonald's like for three weeks in a row while he was on the road doing this and that's where he liked to have early board meetings or whatever but up about that Bob. I'm loving this meeting. Agenda does say that L._S. was a workaholic would be laughable understatement. You Hall was like another child for him. Sometimes it was. His favorite child to the detriment of his actual real life children in talking to L._S.. There were times when you wouldn't know he's talking about his family or the business <hes> to him. They were all part of the same thing in a way and <hes> I think in some ways he was sort of oblivious to the family growing up around him because he was so tied up with his work but in nineteen fifty seven L._S. snapped out of his oblivion at least momentarily Anna Mary who was an equal partner during the business and had already given birth to six children died of a heart condition at the age of thirty four all of a sudden l._S. was a widower was six kids under the age of thirteen and a growing company that needed his constant attention his son might he had formerly relied upon his first wife to make sure the the home family and all the kids were set up straight and everything was working good but that didn't really work after she she died Anna. Mary was the love of LSS life the woman he collaborated with and sought council from and her death forever change the family but not just for reasons. You might think Anna. Mary didn't have a will and because she anelle s were equal. Partners partners in u-haul her children automatically inherited her stock in the company. This was on top of the voting shares that L._S. had already gifted them when they were born and if you do the math that means an instant lss motherless children together other owned a greater share in the company than their father and this says Professor Amy Hillman is very unusual most family businesses to promise is you will own this when I am no longer here but what the ownership doesn't directly transfer to the kids so early in life and I think you know had they had an estate plan for for lack of a better word where the families shares would have all been held in a certain trust. That's what you see a lot of companies now even that are publicly controlled by family members that they all have to agree in some way and that just didn't happen because of Anna Mary dying so young and without a will and as we told you an episode for you gotTa make a will like right now but I mean like after he finished listening while LSS kids had a lot of u-haul shares on paper their father was still in charge of the business but home was a different story. L._S. realized he couldn't handle six kids on his own and run a rapidly expanding u-haul so he remarried move the family from Washington state to Palm Springs. Mike shown remembers that almost from the start of his father's second marriage life at home was rocky lss new wife. Suzanne was almost twenty years her husband's junior and had to raise six kids who were not hers. Mike says the couple thought all the time you know his relationship with his second wife was very read tumultuous and I did not want to be part of that or near it that turbulence second marriage plus the fact that his work often came before his kids gave L._S.. A Monster Parental guilt complex something he wrote about in letters to his kids later in life as a result reporter. Allen Prendergast says he gave his kids a lot of leeway and as the children got older I think he started to reproach himself as he realized that he was not setting the limits that he probably should have both for the family family in terms of doing things outside of U-haul and also just in terms of finding time for himself to break away from u-haul still LSS corporate baby kept growing by Nineteen fifty-nine u-haul had more than forty two thousand trailers on the road in the U._S.. In Canada and they just introduced rental trucks into their fleet and they still made almost everything themselves from box trucks trailers to the hitches they were connected to in just over a decade. The company became a leader in self moving and they did it without any traditional advertising. You know they don't advertise they advertise on the side of their trucks so that in itself was genius that you'd be driving down the highway and see you know in the olden days trailer that said two dollars a day and say okay okay during this growth period lss second wife cranked out five kids in eight years with that many kids. Mike says things kept getting tougher on the homefront he and his brother Sam got shipped to boarding school while the rest of the kids stayed at home home. It's never easy to handle family drama not for anyone but the shown family drama was particularly dramatic the kids whether the death of apparent move to a new city a new step mom and a packet of new siblings though I imagine it could have been a hell of a lot easier if they weren't working together side by side in the family business reporter. Allen Prendergast says L._S. never considered that he just really wanted to bring everyone together under the U.. Haul banner I think that he demonstrated over and over over that he had this notion that again. It's the big happy family notion that everybody is going to be involved in the company and everybody's GonNa see each other all day long and then they're gonNa go home and have fun and they're gonNA party together. I don't know well. It was was pretty clear he. He couldn't put the family back together again with his in his marital situation so he was trying to do it with the business. If nothing else L._S. wanted to put his family on firm financial footing the kind he never had growing up. There's no question he was going to make things better for his kids which also means easier which isn't always better because when you end up giving voting shares of the company to eleven of your children and so you have an established any boundaries around Oh shares and when you don't have a clear succession plan. You're asking for trouble all those kids they don't get along but every last one of them has a big money stake in the company. Um We're going to take a quick break when we come back. What Shakespeare can teach us about the u-haul dynasty but don't worry it'll be like sexy? Leo DiCaprio Claire Danes Style Shakespeare not like boring tenth grade English just kidding Mrs Reeves. I loved your class sharper than a soap. Instituted is to have tank child away away all right. We're going relax. Spectacular failures is supported by ziprecruiter hiring is challenging but there's one in place you can go where hiring is simple fast and smart a place where growing businesses connect to qualified candidates that place is ziprecruiter dot com slash failure ziprecruiter sends your job to over one hundred of the Web's leading job boards but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with you right experience and invites them to apply to your job as applications come in ziprecruiter analyzes is each one and spotlights the top candidates so you never miss a great match. ziprecruiter is so effective that four out of five employers who post on Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day and right right now our listeners can try ziprecruiter four free at this very exclusive web address ziprecruiter dot com slash failure. That's ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash failure F. A. I. L. U. R. E. Ziprecruiter dot com slash failure ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire a brand. I'm guessing there's a reason why you're into the show and it's not the your heartless monsour full of Schadenfreude. It's that there's something so super abry universal and failing. We can't help connect to it. I mean we've all failed. It's part of being human trying new things and wanting to be your best little self and because we all fail that means there's some really great failure stories out there and some I'm great takeaways and we're seeing them up for you so you can learn all the things so as you listen to these stories remember. This is a public media podcast which means you're getting it for free. Driving a few coins in our bucket is a symbol way to show some love of and makes a really big difference. Your donation might even keep us from being spectacular failures ourselves in our first season. The number of people who give really does matter for our future so smash that donate button today at spectacular ocular failures dot org slash donate. Thanks welcome back through spectacular failures. I'm Lauren Ober back in the late fifteen hundreds this guy named William. William Shakespeare wrote a few plays Hamlet Macbeth teaming of the shrew to name a few much ado about nothing is probably my favorite mostly because the title is basically my life every day anyway. One of the bars masterworks is King Lear the King Lear your saga is one of the most terrifying stories about family dynamics ever written. It's about a king who is approaching the age where he's no longer fit to be king so he decides to give away his kingdom to his daughters. That's Dr Michael Whitmore. He's the director of the Folder Shakespeare Library in Washington D._C.. And I figured he might be able to shed a little light on family business succession which is basically what King Lear is all about no that we have divided Vijay didn't three kingdom and fast intent to shake all cares and business from our age converting them on younger strengths while we on gooden kroll all told not quite sexy Leo but it is a very frothy Sir John Gielgud playing lear in a BBC radio production of the play leers about to unload his kingdom but the way he tries to go about doing this. Oh Man Dan bad idea dude and so this scene which is called the division of the Kingdom is one where King Lear listens to his daughters say I love you. I love you. I love you and then based on what they say. He gives them a piece of land. Now I could've told the King trashy way to divide up your wealth and power. There's just no way this can end well and it doesn't from act one scene one. The family starts to crumble and the reason why is because the king is trying to give away his power and power is almost impossible to give away this idea that power is almost impossible to give away especially to your children is central to both the story of King Lear and into the story of the U.. Haul Dynasty L._S. shown the company's founder never required a loyalty tests from his kids know I love you. I love you. I love you but he always had in his mind that he would build up the company so that one day he could give it to them. Lor Union Executive Director of the Institute for Family Entrepreneurship at Babson College says that wanting to leave things to your kids is really cool in generous but it can be tricky when you have a large number of family members who are owners the company then it becomes much more complex so it helps if you ask yourself some fundamental questions before you start raking in the big cash and slicing up pieces of the Biz which family members can be involved in the business or how family members was qualified to be involved in the business. <hes> what are the rules of families as shareholders. What are the rights of family members who are not actively involved in managing the business versus the rights of family members who are involved in running the business? If you don't have those things in place then you are inviting disaster like with the trailers L._S. Anna. Mary just trusted that everything would work out. We don't know of the couple asked these sorts of fundamental questions when they created the company but if they did they he didn't implement any sort of plan and it showed by the early nineteen seventies lss four oldest sons had worked for U.. Haul in some type of professional capacity Mike by then a lawyer had overhauled the company's legal department his brother Sam <unk> a trained physician was LSS right hand man in this was exactly what else wanted a successful business where his kids worked together but says union there can be some pitfalls to that the members of the family have to have an agreement that they have a common goal that is more important than their individual egos and if that is not the case then you are really at risk of tearing the family apart art combined family drama with the everyday stress of running a business and things can get dicey real quick especially when there are unforeseen bumps in the road for much of its history u-haul relied on service stations to house their fleet of trailers and trucks talks about fourteen thousand locations at its peak but in nineteen seventy-three there was a gas crisis there were embargoes and shortages gas prices were insane and lines at the pump were epic. There was a whole thing in the wake of the crisis. Almost almost half of the service stations you partnered with went out of business professor. Amy Hillman says that this was really bad news for the company when the gasoline crisis hit and they lost a lot of dealers that's when l._s. really got desperate and started to worry that this business was going to ultimately fail and I think made a classic mistake of thinking. We know how to rent just about anything so that's when they started renting. I mean you name it. They were renting it like mailboxes cement mixers and crutches. They also rented videos under the new business name Hollywood. Get it H.. A. U. L. Lee would Hollywood amazing at the time newhall also tried to get into the van line moving business but there was already a lot of competition. This diversification was disastrous for two reasons one. They lost a ton of money chasing all these things that were not part of their core business and to because it amped up all that sibling animus brothers against brothers those that agreed with the way he was taking the business and those that saw that their fleet was getting old and in need of repair and very worried that the diversification diversification was going to take the business down this feud about the direction of the company plus the fact that L._S. had been gifting shares to his many kids over the years and basically trying to give away his power King Lear style created a leadership dilemma. Sam shown was the heir apparent his father's u-haul thrown L._S. groomed him for the top spot for years but Salmon Mike found themselves in the opposite side of their brothers Joan mark who oppose the direction the father was taking the company it became I'm a bidder stalemate. Remember the shown siblings had been given shares of the company when they were born and the oldest six kids had inherited their mother shares when she died so on paper the shown siblings especially the oldest ones had a huge huge amount of wealth built up in the company it was their birth rate and they all had thoughts on how best to protect it professor. Laurie Union says L._S. should have seen this coming in the case where you have twelve siblings and there's not a clear understanding understanding of how should we act together. Shareholders that that right away is setting yourself up for a potentially disastrous situation. There are so many many stories about the siblings strife at U.. Haul during the seventies and eighties allegations of harassment and violence and just general bad behavior from few of LSS sons the shown kids there ended up being thirteen and all we were only able to talk to Mike and he was pretty tight lipped about that whole time I'm curious about when you know four for the siblings and for the family aspect of business that it kind of started going south. That's a real good question. I'm probably not can answer it and I can tell you why I we had a pretty hard fought battle over the control that corporation lasted many two years and took its toll and as a part of that I was sued for liable on a case it was the second largest case I ever handled and tried we went to trial and that took a piece out of my hide and I don't really WanNa do that again. My older brother Sam was similarly sued for libel several years later and I assisted him on the defense that case both of those cases we won but it's not something I'm looking forward to do <hes> at this point in my life I mean who does WanNa get sued definitely not me reporter Allen Prendergast cover the family and and remembers that they had some real challenges. I mean the one family member would lose control an assault another. There was a lot of incredible claims flying back and forth among the family about various kinds of skulduggery. Rian litigation that went on and on and didn't you know in many cases the was unfounded but you know it was like seemed like it was there to try to drain the other sides assets or something like that I mean this was this was going on for quite some time. There was a great deal of of just toxic stuff going on between different family members here L._S. shown kept desperately trying to put his family back together. He called in therapists and he tried to make the warring brothers go to counseling sessions but as anyone one in therapy we'll tell you in ain't GonNa work if you don't go and not all the brothers participate. All of this bad blood came to a head when the final battle for control of the company began in nineteen eighty six at the time L._S. own just two percent of u-haul doc eleven of his thirteen children each owned more of his company than he did even though he was still the C._e._o.. And or chair by this point all of LSS shareholding kids were old enough to vote their shares and some of them wanted their father gone so those siblings voted out board members loyal to LS and voted in folks who sided with them. It was like some hostile takeover by LSS own children after four decades. L._S. was out and his third oldest son Joe became came C._e._o.. And you can only imagine the family drama of taking a stand against your father or holding up your father's view and how that must have divided the family and then things got not even worse multiple news outlets at the time reported that at a board meeting in one thousand nine hundred nine a fistfight broke out between Sam and Mike shown on one side and their brothers mark in Joe U Hauls New C._E._O.. On the other Mike didn't WanNA WANNA talk about this but the instant landed him in the hospital with injuries to his neck and back after the brawl a visibly rattled l._S. was quoted as saying I created a monster then in one thousand nine hundred ninety. The family endured a tragedy Eva Burg shown the wife of LSS oldest son Sam was shot and killed in her telluride Colorado home. It was a mysterious crime because there was no obvious motive. The crime scenes pinpoint to any of the typical reasons stranger would break into a woman's home and kill her but the family situation had devolved so much that people immediately started speculating that it was a contract hit which it was not l._S. pointed the finger right his sons Joe and mark the ones who turned on him and in doing so turn the family even further inside out not only do we have this really strange murder case but we also had this family that was apparently <hes> you know a part of this long standing feud over this big business there were all this money that we all this bad blood and that certainly needed some investigation. After years of investigating the death police closed eva shown case after a convicted addicted rapists confessed killing her but the damage from LSS accusations about his sons involvement was hard to ignore it Kesse Paul not just on the shown family but on the company as well so living in Phoenix even today when you you mentioned the company U-haul people will often give you a funny look and there's something off about the company but they can't remember why professor says most people probably wouldn't have paid any attention to the inviting at U.. Haul were not not for the homicide that whole sorted situation really put a dent in the brand in two thousand three U Hauls Parent Company Americo filed for bankruptcy after a number of accounting snafus and in the past few decades the company has found itself South at the business end of a whole lot of personal injury lawsuits people who rented their trucks and trailers claim that they got hurt because they're rental was somehow defective but you all continues to zoom along as the nation's Premier Self Moving Company Company and in recent years the company has made moves into these self storage space a logical extension of their self moving brand obviously providing places to put stuff as opposed to renting giant trucks to any Dodo with a license. That's a much less risky venture for the company. Despite u-haul successes the shown family is still splintered albeit very wealthy LSS fourth born son. Mark left the company a couple years ago and is now Arizona's richest man is net worth about three point three billion with a B. As in boy. That's a lot of money. Mike Sean hasn't really had anything to do with U-HAUL since two thousand five. That's when the last family lawsuits settled Mike was in litigation allegation against his brother Gel in the company on and off for almost twenty years but he says he's moved on the sibling. Thing didn't work out very good I. I don't think that's any any secret and I learned a lot through it. All tell you but you know it's it's. It's in the past and I today. I worked to to be a person that if I can to bring more peace than discord in the world all like to do that L._S.. Shown really never got to see that play out in one thousand nine hundred nine at the age of eighty-three the U.. Haul founder drove his car into a utility pole and died. His death was ruled a suicide out of humble beginnings L._S.. Mary's company became one of the most successful family run businesses in the U._S.. Remember that first pillar the company's D._I._Y.. Spirit that says yeah you can rent this gigantic esque truck and you definitely can drive all your stuff across the country country to start a new chapter of your life no problem. That's still going strong but the second pillar the family part that one totally fell to pieces Laurie Union at Babson College says in any family business. It's critical to keep in mind. Just how important family is to the whole equation. The most important goal is the family relationships and the value the family has through those relationships and the wage maintained that is not necessarily to have all all the family members in the business but rather to have all the family members be appreciated in valued for what they bring to whatever work that they've chosen to do anyone with family knows that can be tough and entering and do business with family as a whole massive challenges. I mean I love my family but there is not enough ZANEX in the world to get me to go into business with them. I'm sorry mom and dad you hall fundamentally changed just the way Americans move but L._S.. Shown was way less successful and managing all those family challenges so the next time you're driving down the highway and you pass one of those distinctive white and orange u hauls thinking is thought for the family driving that rig nick because we know that none of it not moving not family. None of it is easy. Uh spectacular failures is a production of American public media and be Carlson School of management. The University of Minnesota. It's hosted and produced by me. hilarious calamity Lauren Ober other worldly treasure Whitney Jones shows those producer. Our editor is the friend you always helps you move Philip Fletcher our theme music is by the Delightful David Schulman other original music in the show comes from the Jeremy's Jeremy Casio Jeremy Ray Lauren. D is the interim director of High Tacit A._p._M.. mm-hmm our other stellar A._p._M.. Buds include Elissa Dudley Tracy Mumford and Christina Lopez big love to the marketplace DC bureau especially Betsy streisand shoutout to Ronald J. Watkins author of the Book Birthright Murder Greed and power in the A U Haul family dynasty even though he didn't respond to any of my emails apparently he escaped his health America after a lengthy defamation battle which on mark shown each also super big thanks to Claudine obeyed mcelwain for recounting her stressful U-haul Hall story for us. Oh my Gosh my heart speeding fast right now so sorry so sorry to make you relive this trauma every week. The Carlson school management the University of Minnesota dishes up some fresh Biz Wiz so you can feel Super Smart Without the hassle of actually attending business school just kidding you should go. Today's wisdom comes from Professor Vlade Greece cabbages who has some advice for people and businesses. There's like a lot of marketing persuasion revolves around touting all your strengths or all your best qualities and what you'll find is that people often connect here messes not your successes and by showing that vulnerability.

U-haul L._S. Salmon Mike Anna Mary Sam Claudine professor King Lear murder Washington William Shakespeare America youtube Allen Prendergast reporter Collins Claudine hunched Professor Amy Hillman Jeremy Casio Jeremy Ray Lauren partner
Tony Awards Preview

Popcorn with Peter Travers

17:01 min | 1 year ago

Tony Awards Preview

"Yeah. Hi, everybody. It's Peter Travers than welcome to our special popcorn Tony award show. Now, I've gotta say, before we get into the nominees about who will win and who should win. This is been the most amazing year in Broadway history. It has made over two billion dollars at the box office that never happened. And why is it? I think it's Hollywood heat everybody from TV from movies from us. It wants to be on Broadway. They wanna be on that stage. You got this year. Kylo Ren and driver on Broadway. You have Walter, white Bryan, Cranston, there, Jeff Daniels who played Harry done in too, dumb and dumber movies. They're all fighting to be best, dramatic actor, what kind of stuff is happening on Broadway. Well, let's start with the major categories, and I'm gonna start with best musical the nominees are ain't too, proud the life and times of the temptations Beetlejuice remember that movie Haiti's town, the prom, and Tootsie. You remember that movie too? Well. I think the winner is Haiti's town. It's a rigid. It's basically the myth of Orpheus ritzy, but it's got a score by a woman named Naess Mitchell who doesn't come from Broadway, at all and kind of revolutionizes it. So what would happen what could spoil the fun? There's a little musical called the prom. It's really it's totally original. It's about these bunch of Broadway veterans, and they're really hard bitten, and they're not getting any press, and they decide to go to Indiana and help, a lesbian high school student take her girlfriend to the prom. That's it. How good is it? It's really good. And in terms of the Hollywood connection, Ryan Murphy, went to see it fell in love with it, and he's making a movie of it. So how about that? Then we have best play the Ferryman choirboy, Gary a sequel to Titus andronicus. What the constitution means to me an ink. I'm telling you people, the Ferryman is got to be a movie soon. It's an Irish play. It's about the troubles, and in on a stage. We get to see an entire family deal with violence deal with their own feuds. We've got babies onstage. We've got live alive goose. We have everything there's nothing like I don't think there's any competition for it at all except there was a snub, the most successful play in Broadway history. That's not a musical is to kill among bird, and for some reason, the Tony nominee said, let's not nominated what I want. Answer on that one best revival of a play. Arthur, Miller's all my sons the boys in the band, burn this torch song and the Waverley gallery. I think Arthur Miller's all my sons which brought a net. Bending back to Broadway is a show that he wrote in one thousand nine hundred forty seven a bout a guy who was manufacturing airplane, parts and was to rush to do it. And so the planes crashed and killed pilots during the war. We live in the world of Boeing. Now, how timely could this be? So I think that's really up there. And I in terms of seeing a show that by playwright Arthur Miller who says, let's deal with the world we live in this one really, really did it then we have bible of musical. This is easy, because there's only two there's Oklahoma Rogers and Hammerstein Oklahoma and kiss me. Kate. Of course, they were both movies. We saw Oklahoma with Gordon MacRae and Shirley Jones in the fifties. But kiss me, Kate is done in a traditional way. Kelli o'hara's in it, Oklahoma is directed by guide named Daniel fish who find darkness. We're Rogers and Hammerstein only found light. It's a revelation to watch this. It's not the Oklahoma you've ever remembered, and it sung in the kind of country western way, look, if you ever get to see this on Broadway or win a tours get there get there quick. Okay. Okay. Best actor in a musical. And so, we'll do alphabetically Brooks as Mantas in the prom, Derrick Baskin and ain't too, proud the life and times of the temptations Alex Brightman and Beetlejuice. Remember when Michael Keaton had their part, Damon down, oh in Rogers and Hammerstein, Oklahoma. And send Tino fun Tanna into okay? The favorite is Tino, Tanna who is playing the part that destined Hoffman immortalized in the movie in the nineteen eighties. But what Centeno Tanna doesn't remember him on TV in crazy ex girlfriend like I'm saying everybody's from TV, or he does so much more. He sings as a man sees a woman, he does physical comedy does everything but stand on his hat. And I say, you know, who's out there that can spoil the win for Santino Tanna. And my answer is no one because this is one of the great performances you'll ever see on a musical, comedy stage. He's the winner. Best actress in a play Benning in Arthur, Miller's all my sons, Laura, Donnelly, in the Ferryman. Elaine may in the Waverley gallery, Janet mcteer in Bernhardt hamlet, Laurie Metcalf in Hillary Clinton, and Heidi Shreck in what the constitution means to me. Okay. Elaine may doesn't win this Tony. You're going to hear from me. She's eighty seven years old. She's returned to Broadway. After decades to play the part of a woman fighting Alzheimer's, and everything is no perfect about what she's done. She started with Mike Nichols doing comedy. She was starring in movies of like the new leaf directed things like the heartbreak kid. She's just one of the best actors I've ever seen anywhere. And if she loses and, you know, I feel bad for an bending because if Elaine may wasn't here this year, I think she would be the winner, but come on. Attention must be paid people. And I also wanna talk about a snub how. How does Glenda Jackson who won the Tony last year for three women returned to Broadway as King Lear? We talk about the age of hashtag metoo and time's up Glenda. Jackson is playing king. Lear gets rave reviews and the Tony committee says we're not gonna nominate her now. No, we're paying attention. And we're gonna come back and get you our best actress in a musical. Stephanie, j block in the share show Caitlyn Kanoun in the prom Beth level, in the prom, Eva nobles, ADA in Haiti's town, and Kelley O'Hara and kiss me cake. Stephanie j block who is that theater veteran is playing share in a way that sometimes she's more share than share. You might think this is just an escapist show thing to know she finds the character of who she is share shows up at this show often does numbers with her, and pus share. There's who's a bigger Hollywood. Name who is coming to Broadway with the show about herself. It takes three actresses to play here. But Stephanie j block plays the central one. And she plays the hell out of it. So she has just got to win. I'm sorry, people. All right. Best featured actress in a play for new of Flanagan in the Ferryman seal, you keep. And Bolger into kill a Mockingbird. Christine Nelson, Gary a sequel to Titus andronicus Julie white and Gary sequel to Titus andronicus and Ruth Wilson and King Lear people if you see if you see to kill among bird, and you should seal, you Keenan Bolger is very controversial because she's playing scout scout in the book and in the movie remember is in eight or nine year old girl. A C Keenan Bolger is in her forties. And yet, what she finds in this character who grew up to be Harper who wrote this novel is the heart and soul of the peace. So I'm telling you people this, this has got to happen. See Keenan Bolger remember that name best featured actor in a play birdie Carville and ink, Robin to hasten boys in the band getting Glick into kill a monkey bird, Brandon your Ranna wits in burn this Benjamin Walker in Arthur Miller's. All my sons birdie, Carville in ink. Those of us, those of you who actually went to Broadway couple of years ago and saw of any kind of a musical where you were shocked at a man playing a woman, you saw birdie, Carville in Matilda, and he played this woman, this horrible headmistress, and now he's playing Rupert Murdoch. So every who in Hollywood, who in politics would anyone hasn't been in an Rupert Murdoch publication or paper and who hasn't been rolled over the coals in it that performance and in London when he played it in one and Olivia ward, he had to play it in front of Rupert Murdoch. It's just an incredible job. I wanna talk a little about the snubs in this category. The non nominees there isn't actor named Bengal Arghanab into Killa mugging bird who plays Tom Robinson. He is the black man who is on trial for raping a white woman, a crime never committed. And he's defended. By Jeff Daniels. Atticus Finch when Aaron Sorkin adapted Harper Lee's novel to the stage. He did it so that he could expand the role of the black characters as he did here. And again, the Tony committee, decided only to nominate the white actors from tequila, Mockingbird ignoring the two black actors who are just brilliant in their roles. You people you're going to get called on the carpet. You need to all right? Best featured actress in a musical, Lilli Cooper in Tootsie, amber, gray and Haiti's town Sarah, styles Tootsie, alley stroke, or in Rogers and Hammerstein Oklahoma and Mary, Testa in Rogers, and Hammerstein Oklahoma there, something totally remarkable that happened this year in stroke, and Oklahoma. This is a woman who when she was two years old was in an automobile crash, and was never able to walk again. And now on Broadway playing eight oh Anne who is like the sexual. Time bomb in Oklahoma, the one who sings, I can't say, no, the part went to Allie. Stroke, she plays it in a wheelchair and you would think that's inspiring enough. But when you watch her play at you, forget the wheelchair exists, and you're watching her take over the stage like Dolly Parton. She, it's just an amazing thing to watch and it works on so many levels. So I wanna be there when she wins that Tony, and I want to be standing up and applauding and going Bravo. She deserves all right. Best featured actor in a musical Andre shields in Haiti town and a groups Luccin. That's a good name into Patrick page in Haiti's town germy, pope in into proud the life and times of the temptations and Ephraim Sykes ain't too, proud the life and times of the temptations, the favorite, the one, I think will win is under the shields and Haiti's town. He's seventy three years old. He stands on that stage is the narrator in like a silver suit. In total control of body and every movement and pulls you in till you're memorized. Your mesmerizing you not take your eyes off of hundred shields. This is a veteran actor who needs to get this Tony. But what if he didn't who would go to there's a young actor named Jeremy pope who plays Eddie kendricks in the into proud the life and times of the temptations? And who does he's playing a difficult man. One of the most difficult of the temptations. But one of the most talented as well. He's also nominated this year as best actor in a in a play in choir, boy, this is to me, the brightest newcomer that you will see on the stage and you're going to see him everywhere, stage movies television. It's just the beginning. So if you get to see this, you're going to be able to tell your friends, I was there win. Okay. Best director of a play Rupert Gould for Inc. Sam Mendes for the Ferryman Bartlett. Fair for to kill a mocking bird Ivo von Hosver for network, and George C Wolfer Gary a sequel to Titus andronicus Sam Mendis in the Ferryman this play. Does a job on stage that equal to his first movie which was American Beauty, which you may remember won the best picture? Oscar and once Mendis the Oscar as best director. I think now he's going to have Tony's to go on the mantel to go along with that. The only director in this group to me that is sort of inching up and could take that is Bartlett, chair for to kill a Mockingbird, because this is a vast play. This is not one or two people on stage. This is a whole town coming to life. And he just does it brilliantly. But the Ferryman the Ferryman is the show, you gotta if you're betting and you placing your bets, you gotta remember that one. Okay. Here we go to best director of musical Tony fair. We have Rachel Chepe gain in. Haiti's town, Scott Ellison, Tootsie Daniel fish for Rogers and Hammerstein Oklahoma Dez MAC enough for into proud the life and times of the temptations and Casey nickel on the prom. I've gotta say Rachel chafe. Again, in Haiti's town direct something so brilliantly. This is about how it's about a woman that marries the devil, and he lets her basically come back to up to earth for six months of the year because she's missing her friends. Brilliantly. Rachel chicken is the only woman nominated as best director for the tone is this year. The only one that's there and she does not get job who could beat her the only one would be Daniel fish for Oklahoma. Because Oklahoma was always this thing that we watched on holidays, not this Bislett musical that Rodgers and Hammerstein had as a subtext you, they don't change the word of Oklahoma. How you saw it in a movie. They changed the tone of it, and it's a whole different things. Why are those two amazing directors? Fighting it out together. And if either one wins, it's still fair. All right. Best original score. This is a great category for me, and it's going to be basically the last category that I mentioned this time. But I'll tell you the nominees be more chill music and lyrics by Joe iconic. Beetlejuice music in their expiry perfect Haiti's town music and lyrics by Mitchell. The prom music by Matthew Scarlett expi- Chad begun and to kill a Mockingbird music by Alan out ghetto and Tootsie music and lyrics by David yazbek. What an as Mitchell does with Haiti's town. Again, the only woman nominated of four doing not only the book, but the music and lyrics for musical this year and doing it. So suburban that when this album, this cast album comes out, which will any minute, you're just have to have it. You have to do it. She is a remarkable talent. Now, I've been talking about spoilers or people that would come up and. I wanna say this as I end, I'm kidding. Really? But I was going to say what about King Kong, the musical? Now, I've seen King Kong musical. And I have an earache from listening to the score. It's just one of the worst things that I've ever heard. And yet people go and see it, and why because King Kong puppetry, they have, like eight and eleven twelve fifteen guys sitting with this puppet, so that he comes to life onstage. He can't bring the musical to life but boy to just watch him if he were the only one there, but, you know, King Kong was smart. He doesn't sing any of the songs you know, he just moves. He just does all that stuff, and because I've talked about this Tony awards being all about Hollywood, who's a bigger star than King Kong. So I wanna see when they give him a special award and the ward is going to be given. It's not in a competitive category, but I wanna see somebody get up there and say. We'll King Kong, please come to the stage boy, Hollywood and Broadway couldn't come together, and then more exciting.

Haiti Oklahoma Hammerstein Oklahoma Hollywood Arthur Miller Tony Rogers King Lear director Naess Mitchell Jeff Daniels Tony award Elaine King Kong Keenan Bolger Daniel fish Waverley gallery Peter Travers Titus andronicus Rupert Murdoch
flibbertigibbet

Merriam-Webster's Word of the Day

01:46 min | 8 months ago

flibbertigibbet

"It's Mariam Webster's word of the day for December seventeenth. Today's word is F- Liberty. gyp It it. Spelled F. L. I. B. E. R. T. I G. I. B. B. E. T. F- liberty jibbidy is a noun that means a silly early flighty person hears the word used in a sentence from the Arizona republic by carry Liangel as played by a breathless vinnie Chavez. The young imprint is a petulant F- liberty. gyp It obsessed with visual glamour. which gets in the way of his search for a suitable princess to marry the word? Celebrity Jibbidy is one of many incarnations of the Middle English word flapper gavitt meaning gossip or chatter. It's a word of onomatopoeia origin. Created from sounds that were intended to represent meaningless chatter. Shakespeare apparently saw a devilish aspect to a gossipy chatter. He used used flippity. Dip It in King Lear as the name of a devil this use never caught on but the devilish connotation of the word reappeared over two hundred years later when Sir Walter Scott used flaherty as the nickname of an impish Urchin in the novel Kenilworth. The impish meaning derived from Scott's character her was short lived and was laid to rest by the nineteenth century's end leaving us. Only with the silly flighty person. Meaning with your word of the day. I'm Peter Sokolowski visit Marian Webster Dot com today for definitions wordplay and trending word look ups

Mariam Webster Sir Walter Scott Shakespeare vinnie Chavez Peter Sokolowski F. L. I. B. E. R. T. I G. I. B Jibbidy King Lear Arizona Liangel Kenilworth flaherty two hundred years
100 Years of Hopkins

Poetry Off The Shelf

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

100 Years of Hopkins

"The. This is off the show from the poetry foundation. I'm Chris FOX this week one hundred years of Hopkins. Many Hopkins died eighteen eighty nine at the age of forty four very few contemporaries knew that he would one day be considered one of the greatest poets of the nineteenth century and of the twentieth. His first book didn't come out until nineteen eighteen one hundred years ago to talk about the enduring appeal of Gerard Manley Hopkins and to read a few of his poems. I'm joined by Paul Mariani Paul's a poet who has written several literary biographies, including Gerard Manley. Hopkins a life he joins me from W F CR Amherst Hypo. Hi, how you doing? I'm good. I got a little bit of a cold, and then you do too, but we'll we'll get through this. So you've written biographies of Hart crane Robert Lowell, John Berryman and William Carlos Williams all Americans all twentieth century Americans. So what was it about Hopkins that move you back into the nineteenth century to write about his life? Okay. I would. By the way, the most recent biography is Wallace Stevens, okay? Okay, wall Stevens, I forgot him should him. But why Hopkins I was going to school up in the Bronx in New York school Coleman hat in college, sir. When I was a senior the professor doctor poll cotija gave each one of us a poet that we have to speak about and I was giving a WB eight and my fraternity brother who was Irish was given Hopkins. So he said I'll give it to beers. And we'll make a switch. So. So I said it's deal. So I've really loved Hopkins is soon as I started reading the record Deutsche Lynn just the opening of it just the mastering me, God giver of breath, inbred world strand swayed the C load of living in dead. I mean that just hit me so hard. I said this is the guy for me. And it's been a love story ever since that time. So as I mentioned his first book wasn't published until long long after his death in nineteen eighteen. I know it's a pretty involved story about why he wasn't published until them. But I'm wondering you can give us a brief version. Why wasn't a book of hopkins's poetry published until nineteen eighteen good question? What happened was here? He dies in eighteen eighty nine on the cusp of his forty fifth birthday. He had tried several times to publish, but the work was so experimental for for the Victorians. Yeah. That no one would would publish it even and the Jesuits themselves, and he was a Jesuit priest. They wouldn't publish his work. So would happen is he would simply send out manuscripts to his closest friends. Among them was Robert bridges. Another Victorian poet, we don't read much bridges anymore. But he became the poet laureate after hopkins's death. Now, what happened was when Hopkins died in Dublin? Bridges said please look at you're gonna find manuscripts. Please turn them over. They haven't been published, but they were very important. So he kept them from eighteen eighty nine. He would send about an nothing much would happen. But after he became poet laureate and the last year of World War One. He finally published a book of hopkins's poetry now. Nineteen eighteen light people like Hart crane read the poetry. And they say this guy is daring, this guy is brilliant and people like Wh Auden a people like Lisbeth Bishop Robert Lowell TESL. David Jones Yates, James Joyce, John Berryman, Auden Thomas, Merton, shame Haney, etc. Could go on they realized this guy is extrordinary. I'm going to ask you I was going to ask you what's extrordinary about him? But I think the best way to do that. It's just turned two one of his. Poems. And I'm wondering if I get you to read and maybe introduce God's grandeur, which is one of the most famous poems. What would be what would be good to know about this poem for here? So here's a poem that he writes in February actually dated February the twenty third eighteen seventy seven from Saint Bino Wales where he's finishing up. His studies in theology later that year in September he would be ordained a Jesuit priest. And I mean, it's it's an announcement. It's an announcement not only to the beauty of the world. It's an announcement to his own poetry. Well, that's here's here's God's grandeur. By Gerard Manley Hopkins. The world is charged with the grandeur of God it will flame out like shining from shook foil. It gathers to greatness like the use of oil crushed. Why do men then now not records rod? Generations have trod have trod have trod and all seared with trade blared smeared with toil and wears man, smudge and shares man's smell. The soil is bear. Now. Can foot feel being shod? And for all this nature is never spent. Their lives the dearest freshness. Deep down things. And though the last lights of the black quest went oh morning at the Brown brink, eastward springs because the Holy Ghost over the bent twirled, blue DHS with warm breast and with. Plight wings. That was God's grandeur by Gerard Manley Hopkins. Now, I can't think of a more powerful description of our world in the age of climate collapse and ecological degradation than these lines generations have trod have trod have trod and all his seared with trade bleed smeared with toil and wears man, smudge and shares man's smell. But Hopkins almost certainly did not think of this as an ecological foam. What was he what was he critiquing this poem? Well, you don't. He was looking you know, j- trainers Jesuit. He's looking at the way, the, you know, the God's creation the way God had created the world. And then what we Uman beings had done to it. Yeah. So really occurred as he I know the word ecological is early. But. That's what he's doing. He's he's looking at the world. And how can we be doing this to it? And yet, and yet what God is like a mother who watches over us who watches over Slyke like like a like a dove over her bent nest and gives us gifts us every single day. Refreshing us in spite of what we've done to the world yet lines and the turn of the sun and the second in the last six lines, and for all this nature is never spent their lives, the dearest freshness. Deep down things. Now, that's that's incredibly comforting in for us to hear those lines. I think in our era, especially yes. And there it is what he's seeing is is doctors things get there's the light coming up in the east the first inklings of a new day new start a new dawning, and you get this literally an image of a dove over it's over. It's young. It's protecting them. And then suddenly the sun breaks like bright wings out. Like, a Pentecostal moment, you know, he has a very romantic view of nature in the palm said it's religiously charged in a way that other romantic poets like Wordsworth and Keith perhaps weren't it's explicitly religious. Yes. This is the training that he had you know, with all those years of trading as Jesuit both, you know in philosophy and then in in in theology and then preaching in various is particularly in the working class. Cities like Manchester and then teaching in Dublin he's got his feet on the ground. He's he's doing this kind of work every day and he seen. I mean, he's seen the strip mining the coal mining in in north of London. He's he's seen the smog is seen as spill on the street. He's seen it all. And yet in spite of that. There's this underlying beauty. Yeah. Let's hear another poem. It's one of his so called dark Sonics that begins. No worst. There is none can you? Tell us a bit about this poem. And then read it for us. Yes. Not now we've jumped from eighteen seventy seven and now now it's the summer of eighteen eighty five probably August. We don't know because this one is not dated, and he never showed these poems. These extraordinarily dark poems to anyone. He didn't even show them to bridges. He bridges discovered them just in draft after Hopkins. Is death. But this is a period of real what they called a dark night of the soul, a period of depression for Hopkins who is now in a sense, I selected he was the only English Jesuit in all of Ireland at that time, and it was a period of strong Irish nationalism as you can understand. Yeah. He was isolated from his family. He was isolated from all of his English friends, and he's just got a small room. And there he is grading paper after paper after paper any teacher can tell you about that. And and out of these comes series of what we call these what cannon Dixon friend of his cold, a terrible sonnets terrible in the sense of looking into the face of a dock God the dark eyes of God. And this is one of the most powerful, and it was a great deal, by the way for those who love Shakespeare. They'll they'll hear Lear King Lear, you know, lines like Edgar and worse. I may be yet. The worst is not so long as we can say, this is the worst. And it's like Hopkins almost picks up from edgar's speech and says, you know, what there is a worst. This is what it feels like when as you. Okay. No worst. There is none. Pitched past pitch of grief. More pangs will school at four pangs wilder ring comfort where where is your comforting? Mary mother of us where is your relief? My cries heave heard slow huddle in a main a chief will world sorrow on an age old envel- Winston sing, then low then legal fury had shrieked. No linking the ring. Let me be fell four Saima st-. We pledge. Well, the mind mind has mountains cliffs of full frightful sheer Noman fathomed hold him cheap. May who Nair hung the? Not as long small Durance deal with that steep deep. Here creep rich under comfort serves and a world win. All life death does end and each day dies with sleep. You know, it's incredible that it's a sonnet because it lasts so long this poem most on its you people especially experienced on its you read them, and you kind of trip through them rather quickly. But a Hopkinson it seems to go on and on because of the because of the twists and turns of the language and the and the repetitions through how do you what do you make of that Curtis? I think that's that's spot on what you just said. That's absolutely true. There's a deep dramatic sense here. There's the the languages that stress rhythm where you get you know, a back to back. You'll get these strong strong stresses. There's another thing too. There's an awful lot of internal chiming. Yeah. You know lines like steep deep creep that kind of thing sleep, which he picked up particularly from the wells of he had learned Welsh when he was in Wales. Pillow three years of theology. And this internal chiming you hear it in Dylan Thomas, for example, or or as Thomas or others, and all of this just expands the line, salon has those five stresses in their per line. He's fine with our many syllables. That's correct. That's correct. What all it matters. He says is the number of stresses, and he he experimented with that some of the poems. Go on for eight stresses proline, and they're also not only that Curtis, but a poem one of the late poems. That nature is a hair clay, tea and fire is actually a chanted it sung, according to plain chant. So this guy is always experimenting right up to the end. Now for a religious poet like Hopkins. This is a pretty despairing palm comfort where where is your comforting? Mary mother of us whereas your relief. So what do you make the how does that fit into to the religious context of his? World. One of the things that nation. Loyola who is the founder of the Jesuits what he tells us in his own meditations when you do the examine when you do the spiritual exercises which Hopkins did many times one of the things that that Ignace said is if you are in a period of distress a period of darkness, you stay there. You realize that you don't try to try to say, well, it's it's not me. It's not really happening. It is happening. And you realize it, and you stay there until the light comes until something comes to comfort you now. This is one of the darkest ones. Yeah. But if you look through all you'll see that he's coming out the other side in in in the poems that follow this one. You give a wonderful biographical introduction of the context of this. But what what in the palm itself is a flicking the poet, what does the poem tell us that has caused this out? Burst in this mood. How put this? It's not like you can say, okay, listen things are not going right right now because of the weather and things are not going. No, this is this is the literal condition of someone in in that state of depression. Yeah. It's that world. And if you said to someone who's depressed, what what did you just snap out of it or something like that? What are you going to tell you? I can't this is where I am. And if you've been there, you'll know the kind of thing that I'm talking about. And this is why I think he comes back to one of the darkest of the plays of Shakespeare, which is Lear you've got both at sensual where Gloucester thinks he's going to fall off the cliff. You've got that here. The mind the mind has mountains, and you also have that sense of no worst. There is none that that's wonderful turn on the sonnet win. Again. The last six lines of the mind mind has mountain. So he's in the first eight lines. He sort of Laming the world the world self his. World sorrow in the second part of the poem. He pinpoints the source of trouble is his own mind. Yes. Exactly. And you've never been near says you can hold it cheap. If you never hung from the side of the mountain like that, just by your fingernails. Yeah. But that's where I am. It's a terrifying poem. Yes. It is supposed to be. Yeah. Yeah. It gives us no comfort other than the fact that it was made. And so so beautifully mad. But it gives us no comfort. Unlike many of us other forms politics, read, one more palm as perhaps his most famous palm another sonnet called the wind hover about a falcon. Can you talk about this one? And then read it for us. Sure. I mean, what about the mesas of this? You know, how does he literally capture the actual movement of the wind hover that he's watching? You see the beauty of the bird. You see it as he watches it. And it's very much in that tradition. And then he turns it in on himself. Off and see something even more beautiful than let's put it this way. You've got the majesty of the life of Christ for Hopkins the teacher, but how does it end? It ends with him being turned over and crucified, and what Hopkins says the poem is that if you wanna find the deepest beauty. It was in the full sacrifice of self on cross. And that's what I've gotta be ready to do turn myself over completely for what whatever is out there. Well, let's hear this. This is perhaps his most famous poem. It's the wind hover. Gordon, give it her in. The wind hover to Christ. Lord. I caught this morning morning's minion kingdom of daylights Dauphin doubled alone own folk and in his writing of the rolling level and neat them steady. Ev. And striding. Hi there how he rung upon the reign of a wimp alling wing in his ecstasy. Then of of fourth on swing escapes. He'll sweep smooth and abo- bend the hurl and gliding rebuff. The big wind. My heart in hiding stirred for a bird. Chievo of the mastery of the thing. Beauty and Valla enact pride plume here. Buckle. And. The fire that breaks from the then a billion times told lovelier more dangerous who my chevalier. No wonder of it. Shear plaud- makes plow down Cillian shine. And blue bleak embers idea. Full goal themselves and gash gold for million. That was the wind hover by Gerard Manley Hopkins and a great read. Paul Hopkins is obviously a great poet. But there were other great nineteenth century poets writing in English, but he seems to be a touchstone for so many contemporary poets to this day say unlike unlike Robert Browning, or even Wordsworth why do you think he is still so present a meaningful to contemporary parts? The man speaks directly to you. There's a deport anticipate what he says there's also a deep you Miltie in in what he what he gives us. It's the force of the traumatic force of the lines. And it's for me from a religious perspective. He goes as deep as any religious mind, including Burton or you name it that I can find which is one of the reasons I or perhaps the main reason that I keep coming back to him. It's also the sense of how do I get both the BRIC a BRAC, the everyday stuff in the in the poetry as well as the elevator the lifting of the spirit is high as we can go, and he goes about as high as any as ever got an English and as and as low as any that has forgotten English. I think it's fair to say, yes, that's very well. Put as high in his low. He's got it. All yes. Thanks. Sure. Hall Marianna is the author of Gerard Manley. Hopkins a life. You could read about twenty poems by Hopkins and a brief bio of him on our website. We love getting emails with your comments and suggestions, Email us at podcast poetry, foundation dot org. The themes for this program comes from the Claudia quintet for poetry officer. I'm Chris thanks for this.

Gerard Manley Hopkins Hopkins Paul Hopkins Chris FOX Lear King Lear Wallace Stevens John Berryman Auden Thomas Robert bridges Dublin Paul Mariani Paul New York Hart crane Curtis Deutsche Lynn Robert Lowell Hart crane professor Wordsworth
May 6, 2019: Week Ahead In Politics; Glenda Jackson And Ruth Wilson On 'King Lear'

Here & Now

41:54 min | 1 year ago

May 6, 2019: Week Ahead In Politics; Glenda Jackson And Ruth Wilson On 'King Lear'

"This message comes from here and now's sponsor ember. Wave ember wave the new personal thermostat designed to help you feel cooler or warmer, anywhere. Learn more at ember wave dot com and take fifty dollars off during their mother's day sale ember wave a breakthrough in temperature from NPR and WB. You are. I'm Robin young. I'm Jeremy Hobson it's here. Now, the Justice department has blown through a deadline set by House Democrats to hand over the unredacted Muller report. Now, the House Judiciary committee will consider holding attorney general William bar in contempt of congress. Let's start there with NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson who joins us now. Mara I-, Jeremy. So the deadline passed this morning at nine AM eastern time. What happens now? Well, the House Judiciary committee chairman Jerrold Nadler says that the committee is gonna vote on contempt a contempt citation for not complying with their subpoena for the mother report and that could mean. Gene that attorney general bar will be held in contempt. And what does that mean if he's held in contempt by that is the big question because congress doesn't have a kind of enforcement arm of its own doesn't have a police department. But it means probably that this goes to court, and this kind of thing has happened in the past Eric Holder who was President Obama's attorney general was held in contempt. He didn't wanna cooperate on a certain investigation called fast and furious. But these things go to court and most legal experts will say that congress has the stronger legal stand here because they have a constitutional requirement or responsibility to do oversight of the executive branch. But what Donald Trump has decided to do was real is really spark a kind of constitutional crisis or separation of powers confrontation, where he is saying that we will fight all the subpoenas. Not just the mother report his tax returns other requests from congress for oversight. Right. He's gonna fight all of them. It's a kind of blanket policy, and that is a real in the stress test on democratic institutions that Trump continues to provide this one is a big one. Because respecting a co equal branch of government is how our system works and Trump is pretty much saying that he doesn't think that a Democratic Congress should be able to do oversight on the executive branch will and that brings us to another thing that the president has just said, which is that he now doesn't want Robert Mueller the special counsel the testify on Capitol Hill. He had previously said he wouldn't prevent Muller from testifying and called it William bars decision bar has said he had no objection. Why is Trump now reversing positions if as he has said Mara that the mullahs report is a total exoneration of him. Why wouldn't you want to hear from Muller? Well, that's pretty that's a really good question. We have to assume that he thinks that Muller would say things that would be that would undermine him that would be damaging to him. There's no other reason for him to say. Muller shouldn't testify. Now. The question is what power does he have to prevent Muller from testifying right now Muller is an employee of the Justice department and presumably Bill bar could stop him from testifying. Although bar has said it's fine with him. Very soon. Mother will become a private citizen, and then I don't know who could stop him from testifying. I think there's no legal power that the president would have to stop him. Now, maybe the president's personal wishes have some kind of hold some kind of weight with Bob Muller. I don't know we're gonna have to see what happens with that. And by the way, the testimony could come as soon as next week at right? Yeah. That's what the data has asked for it. Right. Michael Cohen is now an inmate of the former personal attorney for the president checked into prison today spoke with reporters I though here. He is. Killing my family and frame that the country will be in a place without seeing a phobia injustice and lies at the helm of our country. There still remains much to be cold. And I look forward to the day that I can share the truth Mara. What's the significance of what's happening? Now Cohen going to prison finally going to prison that isn't going to stop him from cooperating with prosecutors presumably he's given them everything he knows already but it's unclear if he is just angling for a field trip from the club fed and otas Ville, New York where he's checking into today. Or if he has some new piece of information that he could give to investigators or the southern district of New York that's unclear but Michael Cohen is going to jail. He was the president's lawyer and fixer Paul Manafort, the former campaign chairman for the Trump campaign is in jail and. You know, if I don't think we'll hear from them again, unless they have something big in new that we don't know about one more thing Mara. We gotta talk about the twenty twenty race. Because I thought we had all the candidates already. But it sounds like they're more coming on the democratic side, New York mayor Bill de Blasios expected to announce he's going to get into it. He'd be the twenty second confirmed democratic candidate with others still considering a run why are all these people getting into this race right now. What did they think they're going to bring to the table? Well, each one of them thinks they're going to bring something else to the table. But what's interesting people run for president for many, different reasons? Some of them think they have a clear Pash and a way to win some of them on to raise their name recognition in in preparation for another race for governor or Senator sometimes on the Republican side, we see people who seem to be angling for a Fox News contractor a book contract. It's unclear what de Blasio hopes to accomplish here. I haven't seen any big chorus of New Yorkers saying run Bill run. As a matter of fact, it's been quite the opposite. So so I'm not sure, but look I think that this democratic field is going to sort itself out pretty soon into top tier serious candidates and candidates that can't break. One percent. You know, there will be debates where you have to have a certain standing in the polls in a certain number of contributions from a certain number of people in order to be on the debate stage that'll be one winnowing factor. But I think pretty soon we're going to be only talking about the five six seven candidates that really have a have a chance, but just briefly it must be very difficult for them to raise money in such a credit field. Well, there's a lot of money out there, and it what was really interesting to me was how easy it was for many candidates, including minor ones. I think John Hickenlooper raised a million dollars on his first day in the race. So the low hanging fruit the low hanging money is easy to get. But it's hard to get the really. Big money over time NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Thank you. Thank you and pivot here to a problem close to home. The national council on problem gambling is reporting that up to eight million Americans struggle with a gambling habit. An experts say that Asian Americans may have a heightened risk for problem gambling, fortune and luck armed portent in some Asian cultures through tradition of playing cards and throwing dice at family gatherings and holiday goes back generations, and now southeast Asian refugees who came to the US after the Vietnam war are especially at risk Connecticut. Public radio's Vanessa dilatory reports quench wrong still gets a cozy feeling when she sees a deck of cards drawn came to the US as a kid a refugee from Vietnam her extended family resettled in Connecticut. And when they get together on the weekends gambling was away the bonded. Everybody has a roll of quarters nickels and dimes pennies that the us, and they bet against each other. And so all the kids are rooting for their parents and. Then you know, we kind of check in on them every once in awhile drugs now a healthcare advocate and Hartford is specializes in gambling addiction. Connecticut has to the biggest casinos in the US casinos that cater to Asians with cultural entertainment and translated signs of feel welcoming drunk says for some southeast Asian refugees still dealing with trauma from the war. She says the gambling scene can be an escape you get involved in this activity that is fun. And every once in a while, you make it big and you've got a couple of hundred dollars, and you feel like the king of the world. Of course, you're going to go for that. Right. If you lose though, you lose big Dr Timothy Fung is professor of addiction psychiatry UCLA's gaming. Studies program. Fong says southeast Asian refugees are risk of falling into problem gambling, partly because of their trauma history. The high of gambling is a way of seeking comfort. Funk says some refugees also think they can make fast money seen as an opportunity out of poverty. And when you have tremendous amounts of poverty, particularly in the southeast Asian refugee population that tends to be very tempting idea the numbers back that up experts point to a two thousand three survey led by uconn health center. Researchers focus on almost a hundred refugees from Vietnam Cambodia Laos who were living in Connecticut. They found almost sixty percent of them were addicted to gambling, which is almost thirty times. National average for gambling addiction, making matters more complicated, Asians, are least likely among ethnic groups in the US to use mental health services. I met Howard pinks upon that a Connecticut conference on problem gambling. He seventy-one and says he calls from generation of refugees that carries a lot of stress, but pinks says it's hard in his culture to talk about mental health. The mental is we don't even have the would exist in outhouse language. We translate port by word is like a crazy advocates say not wanting to be labeled as crazy. Or bring. Shame to one's family. Is why problem gambling cases tend to stay hidden until there's a crisis and when gambling spirals out of control, it can lead to suicidal thoughts. Bankruptcy broken families says pinks upon that's why retried to give a message to our community member. Just just to be my full of the consequences of of the scamming to give that message. The state of Connecticut has turned to Asian embassador immigrants like ping pong and Trung who hold sessions in their communities on the warning signs of problem gambling, some experts think it could serve as a national model, and how to reach minorities on a topic that's considered taboo, it's so sensitive that even the term problem gambling is a problem says Trung her Laotian colleague, sue, Tim Uva. She's also an ambassador can't say problem gambling. Because you hear you say problem gambling theater and be like, Nope. Not a problem about or have you say, I think one we did was financial literacy loader soon. So the it was so. Good. And there was one little section about gambling. And then all of a sudden all these questions came out, the Asian Basseterre say they're not trying to discourage gambling the important thing is self awareness. They say and gambling gets to be a problem being able to talk about it for here now on Vanessa de LA Bota in Hartford. For decades. Glenda Jackson has dazzled winning two Oscars women in love and touch of class as well as two Emmys for her Queen and the BBC's Elizabeth are then she became a member of parliament. She said to take on conservative prime minister. Margaret Thatcher told that everything I have been told to regard as vice and I still regard them as vices. Thatcherism was in fact, a the greed selfishness. No can't for the weekend shop elbows shop needs. When my fist was elected some decent to me, how you gonna manage working this will mail club. And I said, well that's been my experience on my life. And that was true now at eighty two Glenda Jackson is playing a man King Lear in the new gender bending Broadway. Production. We have divided in three Yala kingdom and his our I intend to shake Cavs and business from age. Consenting them youngest things Leers decision there to divide his Len among his daughters will be one a grad two of them. Turn on him the third cordelia his favorite he banishes roof Wilson plays cordelia and Lear's fool, the young man as we hear in the scene who tells them things. Others dare not. Tokes and two daughters. Well, if I move my living on Cape macaca skims miss there's mime beg another of the. Hey, hey, the wind throws the dog could lead to me. Big fan. We sat down with both. Glenda Jackson end Muth Wilson in Glenda's tiny backstage dressing room, where I admitted I was scared to death of this outspoken icon. I I wanna reach you back. Glenda Jackson, some of the descriptions of you that oh, they're just wonderful. You entered an interview like a blade flung by a circus thrower seeking its target. You were described as like a gleaming side that slashing an overgrown field. Me me, polite. Two things have been said about me that I never understand one is the time frightening. I find that impossible to believe and the other is that I speak in complete sentences. What don't we all speaking complete sentences? I mean, what does that mean after leaving parliament? Glenda Jackson went to see a friend a woman playing Lear in Spain at the same time Glenn to began getting offers for work while I was very surprised that I was invited back actually. And she said, why don't you do it? And I said don't be ridiculous. It never let me do Lear in England. Then the suggestion of kingly cable by gatlin. That's how it happened. You know, that's funny. Because I was of course, wanted to know had you always thought like do that. Why couldn't a woman do that? But no, you actually didn't lead obselete not it is a privilege be in this play and Ruth Wilson. Here. You are in this play your character the foolish especially in the scene on the heath curled. Sometimes, you know, like a cat around the Lear that has Delia you can't touch but as. Fool you can you walk on you make entrances together. It's almost like a Charlie Chaplin variety actor like plastered right behind her your arms and your legs in sync as it gets a thug for dude them to close. That I was wondering, and I know she's sitting right here. But what's it like to inhale? Glenda jackson. Well. It's amazing Clinton. It's been amazing to work with Glenda's very TAC toe with the fool and loving towards the fool whereas co dealers the kind of a conflict. We'll yes. And also, of course, lists as was my full and everybody says virtually well ever since cordelia is gone is blown it. So there is that link between the two characters as well, the truth tellers, absolutely you've said going out on stage is always like being on a high diving board and not knowing if there's water in the pool. Absolutely. I pray. Yeah. It's frightening. An I find that this play is kind of mad because I mean, the whole show is like a nightmare. And it's so extreme, and I'm just like, oh, I think every time before I go on and flight dull. But because performance is the first one I mean, he's not play tonight audience before and I decided to roles idea masochist, actually who enter this profession, but for me, if I don't really feel afraid I'm really really very worried in a where are you as you had to come on? It's I think we will find God the moment before we go on. Okay. And Lear seems to find him over the course of the play. He realizes his laps is. I mean, certainly that speech way talks about Putin naked wretches that is revelatory moment for that. One. Whereas away. Buy out of this pit in the storm. House. Unfed sides your loop. When Rankin miss defended the from seasons. That was thinking last night watching that as you get the one line on leader demented falling into dementia, and to me he was falling into knowledge and sanity. Absolutely. He does. So wins. Yes, I've been on one level. Of course, he's way way off in some of the world. But the realities of life of the people is something that is suddenly get punched in the nose because you know, his whole life. No one's ever said no to him, and he realizes he's been cheated by those people there is the sense of awareness within which is Mason talk about the physicality for you. I didn't care about gender at all within seconds. One is ever mentioned it to me. But I'm wondering if for you in crafting the character is was there. A gesture that you brought to it. You know, what I brought to it was when I was an MP I had to visit old people's homes day centers things of that nature. And one of the very interesting things that I saw the is that is we as individuals grow older. Those absolute barriers which define how Genda begin to crack. They begin to fray they get a bit smoke in. If you think about it. You know babies. Bowl. And then we teach them of their gender is. But as we get older those areas begin to fray, am I find that quite useful? And somebody said to me the other night, quite amazing. She's seen this play many times. She said, it's the first time I've seen that maternal side of Lear. And I thought that was very interesting at some point during the play. I got very emotional because I was like what am I seeing I recognize this? And it was my mother when she had the night terrors, you're not well because of the people said similar things to me about their parents. And I understand that. And then in the morning her face pulled right up. And let's go to I helping of the amazing things about getting old. I mean, I the inside me I think I'm about fifteen, but unfortunately, the envelope. That carries me along refuses do what I tell it to do. I mean, it has its own ideas about picking things up and walking and all that is very very disobedient. And the other amazing thing by getting older as you realize how much you don't know stacking. With wilson. There's so much that so universal when families fight you've had a project that many of us have been glued to the television here in the states watching MRs Wilson, which is you're telling you play the role of your grandmother who discovered after her husband died of a heart attack that he in fact was a serial bigamist spy. Yeah. An incredible story. And we only found it all out in the last ten years, quite spirituality. I didn't think of really processed it properly every day getting inside my grandmother skin, which is profound when your kid you put adults on a pedestal, and you see them in a certain way, and so need to get onto my grandmother at the age of nineteen and to tell her story, and then tell my dad's story at the age of eighteen that's been really amazing for me. Glenda, you've been nodding while she's been talking. And I'm thinking of how you've said that you've worked with men most of your life because the theater doesn't have as many roles for women. And I'm wondering if you are looking over at Ruthin thinking, it's changed a bit. It hasn't changed too. I mean, it's really scandalous. I find that contemporary dramatists. Don't fund women interesting. We are rarely ever the central dramatic engine with there's some kind of odd junked. There have been major changes and stills still that has not crept into the modern dramatists view of the world. And I find that quite bemusing, actually. And even if the lead from still the victims. I mean, I've been frustrated myself and that as a way of why I've been making my I'm walk will condition by the patriarchy. So even women of lighting stories, which still have women at the center who victims undis- head is about to explore. Well, no, I mean what I want to do. There is still the prevailing on the belly. The different woman is successful. She's exception the proves through if a woman is a failure that all failures, and that has not shift, and even though we have made strides and we'll hopefully continue to make them. It's very hard. Just one last question Ruth Wilson. So what is it like to be like right next? Glenda jet like crawled up does is there like a Spar treats me with overwhelming contempt. Maybe a special electrical field or some like an electric shock every time. I get close. Own asleep. Under somebody's being with you. Because I don't know what she's drinking she's on some sort of energy juice. The I need to have some amazing energy levels. Marvelous. What about you? Not as much energy in the play. We don't change about it. Just drives us full with interacting and fine with each other. That's why you do the job. Of course. It is Glenda Ruth. Thank you both so much. Thank you. Thank you. King Lear stars Ruth Wilson. And Glenda Jackson and a crime has been committed. Glenda Jackson was not nominated for Tony for her Lear, maybe because she won last year for Edward Albee's. Three toll women, but Ruth Wilson was nominated for feature actress, they are both extraordinary. This message comes from here. And now sponsor ember. Wave ember wave the revolutionary new personal thermostat that is designed to help. You. Find thermal wellness in any situation ember wave can put you in control of your comfort in places like you're freezing office uncomfortable. Airplanes, cold restaurants, after a workout at home and more named one of time magazine's best inventions of twenty eighteen learn more at ember. Wave dot com ember wave balance through temperature. Stocks fell this morning after President Trump threatened over the weekend to raise tariffs on some Chinese goods from ten percent to twenty five percent starting on Friday. The US and China were thought to be nearing a trade deal this week. Let's bring in Jill Schlesinger business. Analysts at CBS news in host of Jill on money. Hi, jill. Hello. So what do you make of this? Why is the president threatening to increase tariffs at a time? When both sides have been working to roll them back at first of all, I think you might be forgiven. If you kind of lost track of where we stand right trade conflict with China. So right now US has imposed tariffs of twenty five percent on fifty billion dollars worth of Chinese goods. And then there was another round ten percent on two hundred billion dollars worth of Chinese exports to the US then in December the two sides kind of took a time out. They said, let's negotiate which actually has been pretty good. We'd heard that they were making some progress. But it does appear. Ear that President Trump is trying to amp up the pressure on China ahead of this week's negotiations a whole delegation from Beijing was scheduled to get into DC on Wednesday. And so maybe this is just a tactic. We don't know. No. The president says China is the one that's being hurt by all of this not the United States. There are many economists would disagree and say the US is being heard by this trade war. Well, I think that the Chinese have certainly been bearing the brunt of it. But we also know that a lot of the cost that are incurred with these tariffs is being passed onto US businesses and consumers we had a really interesting report from the university of Chicago and the Federal Reserve Bank, which showed that remember those washing machine. Tariffs will that cost consumers eighty ninety bucks extra for washing machine? And then the weirdest thing that happened was prices for dryers went up also because why manufact-? Both foreign and US said, hey, here's an opportunity for us to raise our prices on both washers and dryers. So this post consumers at the end of the day may not be a huge amount of money. But there is a cost. What are the biggest sticking points right now with the trade negotiations with China? Well, I think that that we continue to see that the issue that really makes Washington crazy is that the Chinese have a practice of forcing US companies to share technology, either as a direct transfer or through joint ventures with Chinese companies as a condition for entering the Chinese market, and the Chinese have basically been quite reluctant to give on this point or to make any change that might require than to update their law in China. The US has also demanded that in some situations going forward that it should be able to reimpose tariffs without fear of Chinese retaliate. Retaliations us me. And I think that would be pretty tough pill for Beijing to swallow. Joe do you think that at the end of the day at some point in the next several months, or at least before the election in twenty twenty? There's going to be a big announcement of some huge trade deal between the US and China. I think there's going to be an announcement of a trade deal, and it's not going to be huge. I think that it's going to be very quietly tucked away. And in fact, this would really be good news scenario for the marketplace. Because even though they want US businesses to be able to enter China with they really don't want is a trade war. So if it just were to go away that would be what investors would certainly like. And I'm sure the president would take credit for whatever deal was on the table. No matter how good or how middling it might. They. Let's Jill Schlesinger business analysts at CBS news and host of Dylan money. Jill. Thank you. Thank you. Let's check in no on Stockton, California. We're an article for a high school newspaper made national headlines before it was even published. The Lodi unified school district heard last month that the Bruin voice the student newspaper at bear creek. I was planning to publish student reporter Bailey Kirkeby profile of fellow student. Caitlyn think an eighteen year old senior? Who'd recently started a career in pornography. Now, the school district amended that they'd be able to review the article before publication and threatened to fire. The teacher advisor to the paper which launched across country debate about freedom of speech in the end. The adviser got a lawyer the school did not review the article, and it was published last Friday. The district said they were worried about the article whether it met legal requirements. They said the law requires districts to prevent the publication of obscenity defamation. And incitement we wondered what about concerns about the student? Well, the peace focus is on. Caitlyn's fledgling career the school knew she'd moved out of her parents home, a few months ago was paying rent to a friend's family and said in the article she'd turned to selling erotic pictures of herself online to make money, then she started to like the attention are there other questions here. Besides freedom of speech that the school should have addressed. Let's bring in Kathy duffle. She's the aforementioned teacher adviser for the school newspaper. The Brune voice and Kathy. You are not fired. Not as yet. Well, let's let's let's unfold. This unpack this where people who may not have been following the story the paper, which is produced by an elective class as it is in most schools, does publish profiles of let's say star athletes, and in this case, it was a young woman who was explaining how she got into the adult entertainment business. Yes. Just to kind of give you an insight into our story cycle. We start out always with our editors sitting down either in a large group or with small groups, and they pitched their story ideas. As I and Bailey Kirkeby happened to be sitting with a small group and one of the students in her group said, hey, I've been hearing about this girl that has been working in the adult entertainment industry and kids have really been talking about her and some of them saying some mean things, and I wonder if this girl would be willing to clear up some of those rumors in Bailey could be the the writer I approached Caitlyn as just a fellow student her peer and said, hey, would you think about doing the story and Caitlyn was so very excited? She said, yes, I have been the subject of a lot of rumors a lot of cruel comments. And I would really appreciate the opportunity to set the record straight. So one of the conditions that she agreed to do the story was that her name be used in the story. Right. So this is Caitlin think the senior who tells the story of how she started selling erotic photos of herself on the instant messaging application kick, and then expanded pictures on Tinder other. Locations, and she goes through and talks about her experience, and it's detailed in a very straightforward way. Then the school district gets wind of this and demands what it claimed that the article was possibly obscene, libelous, slanderous incites commission of an unlawful act is inconsistent with a professional standards of English and journalism says while the district does not maintain that. The interviews publication is prohibited. The district has received information that Caitlyn's interview will focus primarily on her production of adult videos, and so it requested said you are hereby directed to refrain from publishing the article prior to the district's review and approval if I failed to provide a copy of the article is directed I would be subject to discipline up to an including dismissal, and you refused that and this idea, of course, became a national story. Lot of support someone sent the paper two hundred fifty dollars donation. Another woman said. One hundred dollars and she wanted to see the article. Yes. So a lot of people supporting you and the school backing down in the article was published we were victorious on being able to publish the article. But as far as the district backing down on prior review, the last correspondence we received from their attorney makes it very clear that they intend to dig in their heels on the topic of prior review. And so that is obviously what our next battle will be. I mean, we we won this battle. But this war is not over. This is a larger war about prior review for school newspapers. And the district does not seem to understand that. Well, and this is not the first kerfuffle with this particular school newspaper joy understand that another time the district collected over a thousand copies of an article written critical of the school safety policy. Yes, I am two incidents. I've been written up for insubordination after we ran a story about a. Principal who lost his master key for the third time incurring a lot of expenses. And that was after he sent out district wide Email chastising our own staff for the cost of wreaking school. So he requested prior review a week in advance and wrote me up for insubordination for my refusal to do that. And then the story you reference was principal who after we thoroughly went through the school's safety handbook. And this was after one of the mass shootings, we discovered it was so full of inaccuracies outdated information, and we published that and she thought that that would. Make the school results in the disorderly operation of the school. So she confiscated all seven hundred copies in lock them up in her office. Didn't those ultimately have to be redistributed as well? Guess they did. Yeah. Look, you obviously believe very strongly that you and these students have the right of freedom of speech unimpaired by the school district reviewing what you are doing. But I have a separate question for you aside from the free new speech, which of course, we're very much in favor of. What I'm reading through the article this eighteen year old woman goes through all the detailing of what has happened to her in her career. And this is part of what she wanted to get across that, it isn't all sunshine that there's been a lot of problems. In fact, let's listen to what she said to KPI five television in San Francisco about the attention to her article people think that if you're an adult entertainment, you're you're you're obligated to have sex with anyone and you're not, oh, she's a stripper domination does have morals, you can still have morals and do a stripping job. Like a job is a job. Sex work is still real work and your reporter Bailey Kirkeby as we said details a lot of things that Caitlyn fake has done in this fledgling career. She's become verified member of porn hub. That's a pornographic website in which members posed erotic videos for others to view she signed a contract with an agency. Yes, she talked about having to get her blood tested to make. She sure she doesn't have sexually transmittable diseases. But there's never a question in this article about whether or not she might be taking risks about her own personal situation. Apparently she'd had to move out of her family home. She started doing this for money in a given that did you ever hesitate and think well, gee, maybe, you know, this is a girl who wants a tension. But might later regret it. I mean, it's not as if you are an independent newspaper outside of a school. You're also a teacher in the school. So I'm just wondering do teachers have a responsibility beyond the free speech to think about that. I think of course, we do we care about our students. Our students are are almost like our own children to us in many ways, and I have had several conversations with Caitlin, I speak to kaitlin almost on a daily basis. Now that all this media storm is hit just to check in with her mental. Just to make sure she's okay. You know, I sat down personally, and I rarely do this with an interviewee. I let the students handle it. And I spoke to her several times one on one just to see what her maturity level was in would she be able to handle a story like this? If we were to publish it. And and I talked to Bailey Kirkeby at length about what she thought and Bailey was convinced. This was a girl who had every intention of pursuing this as a career who was proud of what she was doing who was happy. You know, what she does is not for everyone. Obviously, this is as the headline. There is some risk involved in this industry. And I think the story did a good job of presenting that risk Kathy. Jo full. She's the adviser for the Bruin voice, the student newspaper bear creek high school in Stockton, California at the articles been published, but maybe the battles still continues over district prior review. Cathy, thanks so much for talking to us about it air. You're so welcome. Thank you for having me. More tough talk from the White House today on Iran with the secretary of state saying that an escalation is taking place today after the US announced its deploying an aircraft carrier and bomber task force to the Middle East because of troubling indications from Iran joining me now is Aaron David Miller distinguish at the Wilson center and former State Department Middle east analysts negotiator, Aaron welcome. It's great to be here. Germany so Bolton says that this deployment of the aircraft carrier is meant to send a clear and unmistakable message to Iran after unspecified threats. What do you make of this? That's the real problem. This week is the first anniversary of Trump administration's withdrawal from the JCP away. And it follows on the heels of crushing sanctions both against the Iranian Revolutionary Guard corps and denial of waivers designed to cut Iran's oil exports zero. So this is part generally of the administration's maximum pressure campaign. Pain against Iran, designed to do what is unclear whether or not this recent maneuvers just part of the pressure campaign, or whether in fact, there really is Intel indicating a sizable tech it would have to be such a sizable attack to warrant this. And I think by and large this strikes me as overkill, but you say it's unclear I mean, we spoke recently with Jason resign of the Washington Post who spent five hundred and forty four days in an Iranian prison who said that the plan from the administration, it's very unclear what their plan is when it comes to Iran, whether they're trying to be on a path to war with Iran, or whether they just trying to increase the economic pressure or what I mean, I think that's the that's the issue clearly their campaign of maximum pressure is wreaking havoc not only with oil exports. But but with the Iranian economy even fact the purpose of the sanctions is to draw the Iranians back to the table, then the. Administration would have to have a position on negotiating with Iran ends that in addition to sticks also put carrots on the table, and I don't see that as the administration's position. Now they deny that the goal is resumed regime change. But it strikes me that that maximum pressure is that I think it's designed to try to create circumstances in which the regime could collapse or even change. And I think that's unlikely to to come to fruition. Okay. Let's talk about what's going on in Israel, and in Gaza. There's a ceasefire that's been reached after days of violence. What sparked this latest violence over the weekend? I mean, look at part of the wash rinse repeat cycle. I don't mean to trivialize it. Because it's tragic. It involves losses of lives on both sides of more on the Palestinian side to be sure you have a a group HAMAs whose raise on d'etre and legitimacy is derived from Armstrong. Which is governing two million people badly in the Gaza Strip and seeking to compel the Israelis to induce certain economic changes that would improve of HAMAs capacity to deliver to its constituencies and earlier on before these Rayleigh elections there were intensive negotiations between Israel, Anna moss to come up with a package of steps. Expanding the fishing zone. Ending restrictions on some goods being imported to Gaza. And I suspect Tomasz understanding Israel's hosting the Eurovision contest thing in consciousness couple of weeks. And and with independence day looming sought to take advantage of the leverage to remind these Railly's of their commitments and their obligations and force an acceleration of this agreement. And I think it was incumbent. These rallies were compelled given the politics of the situation the intensity of the shelling to basically respond. But so far it's resulted in in the way, these have usually ended with the jip- Sion's launching an intense period of mediation, creating a ceasefire which appears to be holding. Well, and how do the politics in Israel play into this Netanyahu just got a fifth term as prime minister last month. He's also facing potential indictment soon. Right. And he's also facing a number of right wing parties, particularly Mr. Liebermann's party who was minister of defense, and is likely to be given that portfolio again, and he's advocated a much tougher line. So the notion that the prime minister is going to make major concessions to HAMAs during the period of government formation is is fanciful thinking, I suspect if the options mediated anything it was a commitment on the part of the Israelis to begin these rather basic steps with any more meaningful concessions or decisions made on prisoner releases. Development of infrastructure in Gaza Strip reserving knows for for much later and just to be clear you serious about saying that Eurovision is playing into both sides here the Eurovision contest coming up. Yes. It's a huge deal for the Israelis. And even though every every Israeli public official said that your vision schedule's not going to allow or change Israel's ever to defend itself. Which is true. There's no question that cancellation of that would be a blow to Israel's prestige. That's Aaron David Miller distinguish fellow at the Wilson center and former State Department Middle east analysts in ago, she later, thanks as always Jeremy. Thank you and here, now's a production of NPR and WB. You are an association with the BBC World Service. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I'm Robin young. It's here now.

US president Glenda Jackson Muth Wilson King Lear Glenda jet President Trump NPR Bob Muller Connecticut China reporter Mara Liasson Robin young attorney Mara Jeremy Hobson congress Caitlyn fake Iran
Love Means Never Having To Say ... Anything | With Pedro Pascal

Modern Love

22:07 min | 1 year ago

Love Means Never Having To Say ... Anything | With Pedro Pascal

"Modern love the podcast supported by xfinity. Some things are hard to control other things are easy. Like, you're in home wifi with xfinity X fi. You can set a wifi curfew change, your password, and create user profiles all with the x fi app. Another reason why xfinity is simple easy. Awesome. Go online. Call one eight hundred xfinity or visit a store to learn. More restrictions apply. Produced by the island at WB. You are Boston. From the New York Times and WBU are Boston. This is modern law. Stories of love loss, and redemption, I'm your host Meghna Chakrabarti. Love thrives on good communication. It can take many forms. But what happens when you suddenly lose? What was once your primary means of communication Jameson hills essay love means never having to say anything takes up that question. It's read by Pedro, PASCAL. He plays Ober and Martel in game of thrones and hover opinion in Arcos. He starring now in King Lear on Broadway, and in the Netflix movie triple frontier. After dating Shannon for several months. I needed to say something to her. But I couldn't. It's not that. I was nervous or unsure of the phrasing. It's that I couldn't speak. My lungs and larynx couldn't create the air pressure and vibration needed to say the words floating around in my mind. This is our reality. I can't talk to Shannon about anything. Not the weather or her day or how beautiful she is. Worst of all I can't tell her that. I love her. This was never a problem in my previous relationships with women. I thought I loved or perhaps didn't love it. All these women knew my voice, they heard it every day. But they never knew what I was actually thinking. They never knew how miserable my body felt because back then I was able to function at a relatively normal level and hide my illness. Well, enough to see healthy, I could go on dates talk on the phone and even drive to my girlfriend's house to spend the night. But over time my condition worsened. Lime disease had exacerbated. My existing case of my algebra and cephlon my lightness an inflammatory multi system disease that can leave patience on able to speak or eat four years at a time. I'm now twenty nine and have been sick for eight years. The last three of which I've spent bedridden mostly speechless and unable to eat solid food. I used to be a body builder who worked out for hours every day. And I was blindsided by the rapid deterioration of my health. I couldn't care for myself. I had to delay love and many other things while I waited for my health to stabilize. That's when Shannon came into my life. She lives in Ottawa about two thousand miles from my house in California. We met online which is common. But otherwise, our relationship has no precedent or guide. We are two people very much in love. But also very sick. Shannon has the same condition. I do she has been sick longer since two lessons. But thankfully, has never lost her ability to speak. Instead, she struggles with unrelenting, nausea, and has trouble digesting food, she's often malnourished. And her weight drops below one hundred pounds too thin for someone five foot five inches tall. We both have low blood volume, which makes it difficult for her to walk without fainting and impossible for me to sit up in bed without intense, pain, and weakness. Since I am bedridden. The only way we can be together as for her to travel across the continent to see me. But even with her willingness to jeopardize her health by travelling so far we are often away from each other for months at a time. When we are together. We spend weeks in bed mostly holding each other. Our bodies aligned to pieces of broken plate glued back together. Because I can't speak. We often resort to communicating by text messages while cuddling in bed. It's like a month long sleepover and feels surreal. Being stuck in a situation so miserable that it could make your skin crawl. But finding comfort knowing that your soul mate is next to you going through something similar. But our experiences differ. Shannon can briefly get up to use the toilet base. And on a good day. Make yourself a meal I on the other hand have to do everything in bed. Brush my teeth bathe and use the bathroom a plastic bag for all movements and for urinating a dubious looking plastic container attached to a tube feeding into a bucket on the floor. These are not sexy things, but are part of life. My life and hours together. I was in barest at first to ask Shannon to avert her eyes and try not to think of me urinating inches from where we had been kissing just seconds earlier. But I have since come to realize that it's all part of sharing our lives. It may be far from the bedroom. Romps we had experienced before getting sick. But knowing that nothing about my bedridden. Life makes Shannon uncomfortable and deers me to her in contrast. I've had relationships with women who became upset at the first sight of anything inconvenient one girlfriend who threatened to break up with me because she thought my beard trimmings were clogging the bathroom sink and another who blamed our problems on my insomnia. These failed. Romances remind me of the baffling incompatibilities two people can have. But also how love can transcend even the most insurmountable obstacles when you find the right person. Before we started our relationship when we were just two friends with the same illness. Texting for hours, I asked Shannon. Do you think too? Sick people can be together. Yes, she replied, I think when you're both sick it makes it easier and harder at the same time. I guess the downside. I said is there's no healthy person to take care of you. But when you're alone, there's no healthy person to take care of you either. She said. I had never thought about it. Like that. The possibility of to sick people being in a successful relationship together. I always assumed that one person in the couple would need to be healthy. To sick people can take care of each other. But shannon. I take care of each other in ways, I never thought possible. I may not be able to make a meal for her, but I can have takeout delivered. And she may not be able to be my caregiver, but she can post an ad looking for one we have done these things in many others for each other from opposite ends of North America. We share an empathy that only two people with the same condition can feel. We know what the other person is going through on bad days. We know how exasperatingly is to explain invisible symptoms to doctors only to face skepticism, and we know all too, well, what it's like to be immobile in an ever moving world. Even so we don't know everything about each other. We don't know what we're like as healthy people. We don't know what differences lie between our current selves. And the people we were before getting sick what maturation and emotional hardening have occurred during that transformation most fundamentally. We don't know what it's like to have a conversation with each other. Shannon is never heard my voice. She's never heard me berated telemarketer or mumble to myself after making typo. She's never heard me mess up at dinner, toast or Tele corny joke. She has never heard me whisper into her ear or come up with a witty reply. She's never heard me. Ask a question or speak my mind to anyone. And she may never get to hear me do any of these things. But that's okay, here is this lovely woman devoid of judgement. Who loves me for the words. I typed to her on my phone. I never loved any of my previous girlfriend sway love, Shannon. I wanted to tell her how much companionship means to me. I tried before many times without success still I felt a head to try again somehow ahead to convey without typing. What I was feeling. My text messages were inadequate and I thought about using hand signals, but the heart shaped hand gesture felt for too cliche. So I tried to use my voice. To my surprise for the first time in months, I heard actual sounds coming from my mouth. With my jaw locked whispered through clenched teeth. I. What she said startled. I took a deep breath and fought back the nearly unbearable pain in my throat and char- tears begin to well up in my eyes. I was again this time using all the strength. I had. I. Love. Oh sweetheart, she said, I'm so sorry. I don't know what you're saying. I wasn't sure what was worse emotional torment of not being able to speak or the physical pain of trying. After everything I had been through the months of struggling to stay alive in my sick bed. And finally finding the love of my life. I couldn't tell Shannon that I loved her. Lucky for me. I didn't have to. As if straight from a heart wrenching scene in love stories. Shannon, took my hand gave me a soft kiss and said. You don't have to say anything. I love you. Now months later, it's still holds true. For us. Love means never having to say anything. discount reading Jameson hills essay love means never having to say anything we've got more after the break modern is supported by first Republic, Bank a Bank feared life and lifestyle. First Republic makes it simple to refinance your student loan debt. You can focus on what really matters to you. Thang house starting family seeing the world. First republic's fixed rates are among the lowest in the country. And a dedicated banker will always be available to provide exceptional service throughout the student loan process and beyond. Visit first Republic dot com slash S. L are today. First Republic Bank, equal housing lender. Jameson is still sick. But now about a year after his piece came out he's able to speak in a whisper. Else? Pazar some. Or other? But. Say I'm bless mobile. To get around to wheelchairs, but. Kind of. Nick Jameson symptoms vary from day to day. He says there's a lot of pain in his muscles and joints and speaking painful, and exhausting. He also suffers from nausea and weakness, and he says doctors haven't been able to give him an accurate prognosis. Scariest parts. As an example. On my own down. My main magi on cameras on again. Lettuce gas. Jameson and Shannon are still in a relationship, but it's complicated. And some ways costs are now. Main tanks. Text. Sometimes. Partis seen other here. She's singer. So she can travel. Trash on. Stunk. Any says they'd like to live together some day. I think constant. Feel so attain on. Daily. Better. All after. Integrators thing. Jameson hill. He's written a memoir and is looking for a publisher. He lives in California more after the break. Modern love if supported by xfinity. Some things are hard to control like over caffeinated. Co workers other things are easy to control like you're in home wifi with xfinity X fi, wifi curfew, change, your password, and create user profiles. Oh, but the x fi at another reason why xfinity is simple easy. Awesome. Go online. Call one eight hundred fifty or visit a store to learn. More restrictions apply. My darkest past can be a beacon of light for somebody else. I can say, hey, look what I've walked through. You can walk through this to kind world stories about how profound acts of kindness big and small can change lives. Honestly, the most transformative thing was being treated like person when I didn't even feel like I was a human subscribe on apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Dan Jones, editor of the modern love column for the New York Times says that Jameson relationship with Shannon, made him think about communication and the way it's changing. They communicate electronially when they're apart. But then when they're together because you can't speak. They continue to communicate electronically and text each other while being in the same bed together. And there was something in that that is sort of echoed with a lot of relationships today, especially among young people who sit next to each other on the couch and text each other, and or Sydney each other at work and communicate on slack. Even though the person is right next to them. I mean, I think as society, we're changing toward electronic communication in a way that is making speech and personal interaction more difficult for everyone. So this was not an intention of Jameson to make that connection. But I think it's it's almost inevitable connection and a little bit strangely symbolic of a society that is turning away from spoken commute. Education and Spokane intimacy to electron of communication electronic intimacy. And here's Pedro, PASCAL Chozas essay because it is incredibly inspiring and humbling to read and to know of his en- Shannon's experience, I think that today, and maybe my entire life relationships. Seem so. Possible because of such ridiculous incompatibilities. I mean, people can break up over disagreeing about a game of thrones episode. And and here, you realize that, you know, nothing surmountable. Finding the right person. Can mean a love that. Conquers, and that's very inspiring. Thanks again to Pedro PASCAL for reading this week's piece. You can see him in King Lear on Broadway and in triple frontier on Netflix next week, Sarah Goldberg. After my mother was told she had incurable cancer. She became obsessed with finding me a husband. One after noon from her office between the Goshi for clients book contract. She called three times to tell me about a man my father had met who worked in a SoHo lamp store. My mother a powerful publisher and literary agent who had champion Stephen King. Now wanted to set me up with someone who sold lamps. He's leaving for France soon. She said call him. Modern love is a production of the New York Times and WBU are Boston's NPR station. It's produced directed and edited by Caitlyn O'Keefe original scoring and sound design by Matt read iris Adler is our executive producer. Daniel Jones is the editor of modern love for the New York Times and adviser to the show special. Thanks to Samantha Hennig on your streaming and Mealea at the New York Times, the idea for the modern love podcast was conceived by Lisa Tobin. You can find resources connected to myalgia in Cecil Maya litis on our website WBZ. You are dot org slash modern love. I'm Meghna, chucker birdie. See you next week.

Shannon Nick Jameson New York Times xfinity Boston King Lear Pedro PASCAL Netflix nausea Meghna Chakrabarti publisher California First Republic Bank North America Jameson hills editor Jameson hill
Performing After A Pandemic

The Indicator from Planet Money

08:40 min | 4 months ago

Performing After A Pandemic

"N. P. R. Everyone Cardiff and Stacey. Here this is the indicator from planet. Money Morgan Gould is playwright and a director of plays. She's thirty four lives in Brooklyn New York and her career. Recently had a huge breakthrough yet. Morgan's play Nicole Clarke. Had A baby had been accepted into. This year's Humana Festival of new American plays in Louisville. Kentucky and Morgan was excited. She says because this festival is attended by the artistic director of theater companies from all across the country the people who can agree to produce the play in their theaters later on. So it's kind of like a giant enormous amazing production in its own right but also an audition for other Gatekeepers producers around the country. But after just a few performances in early March the whole festival it was canceled. This was not just tougher Morgan. But for the entire cast of her play for a lot of them like this was just like it was for me a big step forward for me in my career but you know for everyone you put a lot of work into something and like the whole point is that people are going to come see it and you know just like all of us who are artists like. Sometimes you work on projects that you're like this was okay and sometimes that was dead and sometimes you're like this was really special and at least for me. I felt like this was really special. And so it's sad that this of all ones had to be cut short like this and it obviously was not just festivals live performances concert venues opera houses dance halls all were being canceled throughout the whole country last month and almost all at the same time. Few sectors of the economy have been directly and immediately devastated by the virus as the fifty billion dollars a year performing Arts Industry. As long as the economic shutdown continues people are crowds. There effectively is no performing Arts Industry. But the very nature of the performing arts also means that it will likely struggle more than other parts of the economy to open back up. Dan The show what comes next for the performing arts and what could be lost as it fights to survive. This message comes from. Npr SPONSOR OCTA OCTA enables any organization to use any technology securely learn more at OCTA DOT com support also comes from capital one with the capital one quicksilver card with quicksilver you are an unlimited one point. Five percent cashback on every purchase everywhere. What's in your wallet? There are several reasons why the performing arts sector is likely to struggle more than other economic sectors in bouncing back from the corona virus recession whenever that finally happens and the same goes for the hundreds of thousands of people who work in the performing arts and it begins with all the work that goes into putting together a show performance for example. Morgan Gould's play. Nicole Clark is having a baby is a relatively small one only four actors in the cast and yet so there were four actors a stage manager and then oh my gosh countless. They're amazing group of designers and technicians. I would say all told at least like fifty people. And that doesn't count like the people who are salaried by theater. The performing arts is more than the actors and musicians and dancers magicians acrobats. That you see on the stage it includes all the people that support them behind the scenes as well and all the people who work for the venues where they perform which means it planning. A show is a massive logistical undertaking. It also means that when a show is canceled. It can't just be started up again by turning theaters lights back on the script and even the actors might be in place but a lot of logistical work. The planning has to be done all over again. That takes time and another reason that the sector is likely to struggle even once. The economy starts to reopen. It relies more heavily than other sectors on people just having enough income leftover after they covered basics like food and rent to spend on live performances in the past. When there have been recessions the arts tend to be hit very hard senior. Anger is the director of research and analysis at the National Endowment for the arts the EA and we've seen that of course the two thousand seven to two thousand nine recession. We saw that earlier in two thousand one and this is of course creature like when we haven't experienced before and on top of that the performing arts along with sports could be one of the last sectors of the economy to reopen just because it does rely on a lot of people crowding together to watch a show. Morgan Gould the playwright. Where's the a lot of performing artists will have to look elsewhere for work? Their careers will take a totally different trajectory from the ones they'd imagined. A generation of artists might simply be lost along with the work they would have created. I I mean I can tell you personally as someone who did not grow up with money doesn't have a safety net for my family and needs to earn a living that I think that that that will happen for sure to artists on all ends of the spectrum emerging and otherwise and. I think that that's GonNa be the tragedy of this Morgan. Herself is now paying the bills by writing for television shows. She says she feels really lucky. That this work is still available for her. But she also worries about what this could mean for her career as a playwright. I may not come back not even because I don't love the theater but just because we all as artists have to go where the money is where the opportunity to create is a lot of the traditional funding for the performing arts from investors from donors from government grants might also dry up in the recession and because these will be so uncertain for theaters. Even when things do start trying to reopen Morgan says she really doubts they will take the kinds of risks. They were taking before. They're gonNa want something that they know will sell tickets. They're going to want an artist. They know has a name and has poll and yet as an emerging artists. I absolutely aware that it was really cool to say. You supported emerging artists until like March eleventh. And now we'll see what happens when we come back if that's still Something people are prioritizing. So things are bad. Maybe uniquely bad for the Performing Arts and it's not clear when they will get better still. Neil does mention one. Small three cautious source of hope. Which is that the technology and the media now exist for people to at least stay engaged with the performing arts even if they can't actually go see live performances and this can happen through streaming services for video and music through social media through people just emailing each other clips or even through listening to discussions about the arts on podcasts. The highest of the performing arts of course exactly and I think that's an important part of the ecosystem I think we tend to lose sight of that ecosystem of people engaging in the arts through technology we know that seventy three percent of adults in in a given year have engaged in the arts through technology through technology platforms snow also cites research from the National Endowment for the arts which shows that people who do engage with the arts through technology are about twice as likely to go see a live show as well. This doesn't really help people who work in the industry right now but it will hopefully make future audiences more enthusiastic about going back to see live performances. Once it is safe to do so if in fact we're in a cloistered period where people are getting their art electronically it's possible that not only will they continue to do so after the Kobe period but they may in fact be inspired to see some of these things live that they're engaging with through media of course the performing arts industry is old. It's ancient you only have to visit the ruins of an ancient Greek theater to see this and the industry has survived. Plenty of pandemics came before I think I read that the Black Plague Shutdown Shakespeare's globe theatre and closed down. He wrote King Lear. Yeah that's a lot more productive than I think I'm being she expected not have net flicks. But maybe there's a King Lear being written right now But the point is that the industry has survived many pandemics and kneels. Hope for now is that it will survive this one and the technology could act like a kind of bridge between the world before Corona virus and the world that comes after this episode of the indicator was produced by Dr Rafi on and fact check by Britney Cronin our editors Paddy Hirsch indicator is a production of NPR.

Performing Arts Morgan Gould Arts Industry director Humana Festival King Lear Louisville Kentucky NPR Brooklyn New York N. P. R. Everyone Cardiff National Endowment OCTA OCTA OCTA DOT director of research and analy Nicole Clark Nicole Clarke Stacey Dr Rafi Neil
Getting Discomfortable with Productivity

Discomfortable

32:26 min | 3 months ago

Getting Discomfortable with Productivity

"The early days of the PM Iq. I mean well. I can't believe I'm actually even saying in the early days of the pandemic but nonetheless in the early days of the pandemic there was a tweet circulating in which someone said. Don't forget when Shakespeare was in quarantine he wrote. King Lear and there was another tweet went around which I couldn't find but it went something like if by the end of this pandemic. You haven't Lost Wade or started a new business or written a book than it wasn't that you lacked time. It was that you were lazy and I was actually really heartened to see that. By and large the pushback against these types of tweets was quite negative. People inherently recognized that right now at very least productivity isn't the be all and end all in fact it never was. But there's something in US telling US otherwise. Can you guess what it is getting comfortable with productivity? I think there are a lot of people like me who are agreeing with this sentiment about productivity. Not being that important but at the same time behind the scenes are thinking to ourselves. I'd love to use this time to do something useful and it goes to show. How would you can know something cognitively? That productivity isn't that important and yet the way that we have been conditioned by our culture throughout our lives tells a different story that affects us on this deep unconscious level and pressures US sometimes to do the exact opposite of what we consciously think is right so we end up with this kind of schism where we is that. The word schism. Yeah I think so. This kind of schism where we. I don't know why that we're just seems crazy. We end up with this schism. Is that really the word? A A Chisholm schism. I don't know we end up with this tug of war. Let's say that between what we've learned as conscious adults to be true and what our conditioning is still kind of brainwashed and ingrained into doing so on the one hand I know cognitively intelligently intellectually logically in my brain that productivity does not equal value is not equal worth does not make you a better or worse person but then at the exact same time deep down there is this message inside of me. Fueled by shame if I am not constantly working creating building improving putting something out into the world progressing somehow achieving something having something to show for myself then in fact in a deep way I am unworthy. Valueless worthless pathetic. Nothing it's like. Why do I even deserve to be alive if I am not adding value to the world in some way I find as I've been working on my shame that it has this uncanny ability to sneak up from behind me just when I think I've finally adapted to some of shames most disempowering messages? I find that I'm doing the exact same thing all over again. But in a subtler way it's almost like the shame patterns that we got habituated into throughout our lives keep recurring just below our self-awareness like just beneath our consciousness. The perfect place where shame likes to operate so that we don't see it and try to combat it or change it so every time. I think I've tackled one area of shame. It just shrinks itself down again so that it's just below the surface of my awareness where it can continue to operate in the exact same way but just ever more subtly so for example back when I was pursuing filmmaking. I had this idea that basically unless I became successful or famous unless I gained some notoriety in my career I had no value at all really so in in that case. Shame was making me feel worthless because I wasn't really succeeding as much as I thought I needed to. So I had a lot of self loathing and a lot of delusions of grandeur to try to prop up my ego. But I've worked through all of that and I've found a really strong sense of self esteem and self love and pride and have all of this excitement about my achievements around shame so in combat in my shame about not achieving enough in filmmaking. Shame snuck around to the back door and said you still need to achieve a lot but in a new arena around shame. So shame was like using my battle against shame to motivate more shame but I didn't notice it because I was actually succeeding in a way that I felt was real. This time I was actually learning things and I was actually experiencing changes in my life. That were really profound and I I mean I got so much happier. I I really was like wow. Aj you've actually done something that's meaningful and important for once. So I had this sense of pride and achievement and that sense of pride and achievement stopped me from seeing that I was using that sense of pride and achievement to combat shame. So the shame was still there all along but because. I was achieving because I was being productive. I was able to avoid seeing it or feeling it but it was still operating and I think this is the case for a lot of really successful and productive people. You may have been motivated by a deep sense of shame and worthlessness at one point but then you actually achieved so much that you lost touch with the fact that the engine of your motivation towards productivity and achievement was shame. And you know this seems fine while you are succeeding but as soon as you have a failure or a mistake the shame is gonna come roaring back and overwhelm you as if you have achieved nothing at all. So achievement is a temporary solution to shame assuming that you can maintain an increase your sense of achievement over and over and over again you have any missteps. You can't have any downward slides you have to constantly be getting better bigger more successful mark famous. Whatever it is that is keeping your shame at bay has to keep expanding kind of like a drug habit. You have to get more and more to experience the benefits of not feeling shame. And it's so insidious because you think that you are proud of yourself. You think that your great you think that you love yourself but you don't realize that yourself self love is conditional it is conditional to constant upward movement at the core. I think it boils down to the classic. Shame message that you are not enough. It's this inherent belief that just being exactly. The way you are at any given moment is not worthy. Shames message is that something either needs to change or needs to be hidden and repressed forever or it needs to be added to. You need to be augmented somehow. In order to be worthy of love and respect and connection and belonging in all those good things my shame message of not enough newness began many many years ago when I realized I was gay and shame was just like nope that is unacceptable. So that part of you either needs to change or be completely hidden. So that's what I did. I completely hit it even for myself. But then about ten years later I realized that being gay was fine and I unearthed that and I came out of the closet and the rest is history. The shame message remained that there was just something about me. That wasn't good enough. That was sort of habituated into me. It was conditioned into me. Even though I had gotten over the whole gay thing so at that point it went from having to hide or change myself to having to augment myself. Because just whatever I happened to be in any given moment just wasn't enough and so I needed to be really successful. I needed to be an overachiever. I needed to be filmmaker or an actor or needed a lot of attention like all these different strategies to try to add on so that my enough newness would reach the critical level where I was somehow worthy all of a sudden and now I've reached the point of enough newness where I am feeling worthy but only because of the achievements that I have piled on top of my not enough newness so still even though. I'm feeling good in this moment. The internal deep down message that I am not enough just the way. I am suggests that I constantly need to be adding this extra value and yes I've added today so I get to love myself today. Her a but there's this subtle message that says but what about tomorrow will you still be worthy tomorrow and with that message in mind? I feel like I need to work my ass off. I need to be busy. I need to be productive. I need to achieve constantly so any day that I spend saying. Oh I need a meet. My need for relaxation today. My shame comes up. And he's like Oh no no no no no. We are barely clinging onto worthiness here. Buddy you need to work. I think this message is embedded directly in our culture. There's this idea that you don't get a free lunch. You don't get to be a human who exists in society unless you are adding value. Somehow you need to be being good or getting better or learning or contributing. And what's so frustrating is that that's all great like it's it's great to improve somehow to have a sense of purpose and meaning. It's great to give back. It's it's great to try to help out you know like shame is motivating me to do good things. I just wish that it would give me a break sometimes. I wish that it would give me more balance. I want to have a healthier relationship with achievement where I do it for the right reasons. Not because of shame and I feel very strongly that even if I didn't have shame I would still want to achieve and do certain things because they're meaningful to me. This opens up a really interesting point about shame which is that. It is a negative reinforcement towards our need for belonging but our need for belonging is also positively reinforced by pleasant emotions. Like joy and love and connection. You know the best feelings that we have as a social animal so I want to seek towards connection and achievement and purpose and meaning based on the positive reinforcements. Because that's me saying this is what I want to do and I want to reap the feel-good benefits of doing it. It's when I need to then. Balance belonging and achievement in purpose with some other needs usually around relaxation or harassed or care or even autonomy. Perhaps it's in those moments that the negative reinforcement of shame kicks in because I'm not able to say okay. I've done enough now. I get to lie on the couch and a break or have a bubble bath or just take a weekend to watch movies. The whole time my negative reinforcement POPs in at that moment because I'm no longer receiving the positive reinforcement of actually doing the work and the negative reinforcement says. No you're not allowed to meet your other needs. And the negative reinforcement presupposes that belonging is our most important need for survival and when we were hunter gatherers belonging really was our core need for survival. If we fell out of our one hundred fifty person group our tribe. We were going to die. It was as simple as that but now we live in this modern super society where being kicked out of any one group is not going to lead to our death but our instincts around shame and survival and belonging are exactly the same as when we were hunter gatherers. They don't realize that things have changed. So basically we're constantly acting under the sub-conscious. Believe that if we don't do all this stuff to fit in we're going to die but really we're not. GonNa die and what that means is that we have an opportunity to meet some of our other needs. Instead of constantly grinding away at trying to achieve belonging we can actually balanced belonging with a bunch of our other healthy needs for self care and autonomy and relaxation. Authenticity and honesty and all of that good stuff is also going to have a positive reinforcement that feeds into our sense of wellbeing as belonging like belonging is important too. But we don't need to be motivated by the negative reinforcement towards belonging quite as much as our instincts and our shame seems to think we do and in that space. We have an opportunity to feel the shame that comes up and say of course. I'm feeling shame about this. I'm condition this way. I'm program this way. My Instincts Act this way. But I'm not going to act on that feeling. I'm not going to let that negative reinforcement control me. Because I know consciously that I live in a world where even if I'm not successful enough to fit in with the cool kids I will not die and in fact consciously I don't even value fitting in with the cool kids that much. It's mostly predicated on shame and it's going to hurt because you're going to have to actually sit in the discomfort of shame for Awhile in order to let the feeling pass and all emotions are temporary including shame so the shame will pass. All you have to do is feel it accepted. Say OF COURSE. Put a hand on your chest whatever you need to do. Just don't fall into any of your classic reactions. That's the way shame gets you? It makes you feel bad. And then you're like oh. I feel bad I gotta go to my computer and I gotTa start working but if you just sit with that bad feeling and don't follow. Its message to go to the computer and work within a few minutes. As long as you don't like ruminate and stimulate this thought over and over again within a few minutes it should pass and when it passes you go back to your neutral equilibrium where your cognitive brain can say. Okay what do I really want to do right now? What I really value do. I need to keep grinding. What am I getting out of that or do I need a break like what do I offend typically? Need when? I'm not being by shame. It's letting myself feel a little bit of discomfort now not acting on it so that later I can feel a lot more pleasantness. So it's not about rejecting my shame. It's not even about arguing with my shame. It's not about trying to get all logical on my shame. There definitely some use to really honoring the logic in your brain that you don't have to be productive to be valuable. That kind of thinking is great. There there is some effect but when it comes down to my deep cultural conditioning. And I'm in shame all I can really do in that moment of feeling. Shame is accepted. Feel it and let it pass. Whenever I am really really struggling with an emotion it almost always turns out that. It's because not only. Is that emotion unpleasant but on top of that unpleasantness. I am fighting the emotion. I am saying in a subtle sub-conscious way. I don't WanNa be feeling this. I shouldn't be feeling this. I shouldn't have to feel this. This isn't fair. This isn't good. I'm bad if I feel this. This isn't the right thing to be feeling any of those kind of messages. And of course it's always just below my consciousness the perfect place for shame to operate. And it's like this again. This schism this wrestle. That adds even more unpleasantness on top of an already unpleasant sensation and in fact by wrestling with the emotion seems to Elongate it. It's so exhausting. And then when I have that Light Bulb. Wait it's okay. It's okay to be feeling this than I do. The whole put my hand on my chest and say of course. I'm feeling this. Yeah you WanNa feel a little bit of shame body. We can do shame and before long it passes. It comes back. Don't get me wrong. It always comes back but I have a lot more utility by accepting it then wrestling with it and who knows maybe overtime. I can kind of rewrite my conditioning. Such that my shame gets triggered less and less or I wrestle with it less and less. I don't know I mean I spent thirty five years being conditioned one way so I can't really expect it to change overnight not to mention the fact that the main period of the conditioning was when my brain was still malleable. As a child. There's no question that there's a certain point in your teens or in your twenties where your brain finally crystallizes and the patterns have been set in. There are pretty permanent or to some degree more or less. They're going to be there in some form or other forever. So my goal is to build on them and adapt to them such that. I can work with them. An offset them in ways where I end up not being controlled by them as opposed to fighting them and smashing them and trying to repress them in reshape them and change them and one of the best ways to adapt to them and work with them is to just be honest about them. The more I can just say exactly what's going on for me without acting on it the more. I'm able to make a choice after saying what's happening in fact it's almost like instead of acting on my shame by like running to my computer and doing work in order to feel productive. I can just say to someone. I'm having shame about not being productive and saying it to someone becomes the action that I am doing based on that shame and it's a much more productive action in the sense not of not productive in the sense of productivity and achievement but sort of constructive. I should say I'm not actually giving into the message built into that shame but I'm doing something by being honest and transparent about it by being fully authentic. It's tough because shame is often operating just beneath my consciousness but the more I can work on mindfulness and authenticity the more I can start to see those things and the more I talk about them with people openly and honestly the more I become aware of them and the more the people I talked to become aware of them and it's just sort of like creates this culture where we all start to recognize the way aversive emotions like fear are operating behind the scenes and controlling us and when we bring them up into the light of our consciousness and we talk about them. That can be enough of an action for the emotion to feel kind of heard and expressed and pass. I think that's all emotion wants is to be felt and accepted heard and expressed especially expressed. I think we forget that about emotions. Emotions are not an internal message only for us. Emotions vary specifically are designed to show through our body especially through our faces. I think of a emotions as kind of our first language we want to show specifically what is happening inside of us that will help us communicate it will. It will help US CONNECT. It will help us understand each other. It will help us really know each other. It's kind of a gift to show someone. This is what is happening in my internal world. It's the closest we can get to kind of seeing inside of someone else's experience and we have these mirror that stimulate empathy so we literally take on and feel some of that emotion. It's this resonance between people. That can be a really powerful form of bonding. So when you take your emotions especially the unpleasant ones even the ones you don't want to be seen and you express them and discuss them and you bring them up into your consciousness. It helps you manage them. It helps you adapt to them. It helps you decide. How do I actually want to react in this situation? As opposed to being controlled by the emotion that I am allowing to operate under the surface unseen. So our constant working are constant desire to be productive. Feels right because it mitigates our shame. It stops us from feeling the negative reinforcement of our conditioning. That says we need to be productive and successful and achieve in order to fit in and belong which connects to our instinct. That says if we don't fit in and belong we will die. That's what's happening there. And the solution is to allow ourselves to feel shame to embrace the feeling of it just the feeling not the beliefs that pop up about. Oh you're lazy or you're not worthy or you're not contributing or you're not good just embrace the feeling long enough for it to pass because a win it passes a bunch of those beliefs will go with it. And if you're anything like me shame will be operating on this very subtle very insidious level. That's deeply connected to a bunch of really beautiful desires of improvement and learning and growth and evolution and helping and service. Shame can use those good things to motivate us to do things when really deep down it's more about fitting in and belonging than it is about pursuing those beautiful things for their own sake and I guess that's better than nothing like you know. At least you're doing something that's useful but I think it's worth trying to figure out. Am I doing these? Good things for the positive reinforcements. The pleasant feelings that come from doing them or am I doing them to avoid the negative reinforcements. The shame. That feels awful when I don't do them and if I wasn't receiving that negative reinforcement all the time would I be doing as much or would I be balancing things a little bit better. Would I be meeting more of my needs? This right now so clear because we're in the middle of an unprecedented pandemic were dealing with all kinds of new and scary situations and intense emotions. Like we wouldn't normally have to deal with and yet this message of productivity is still pounding away at us. It's almost certainly not for the positive reinforcement of contributing. And all that you know there there's GonNa be a bit of that. There's no question but I think if we didn't have that intense negative reinforcement towards productivity. We would be going a lot easier on ourselves. We would be really honoring. How unprecedented and crazy. This whole thing is. We'd be saying. Do whatever you gotTa do to survive and belonging in the way that we've construed it in this constant productivity belonging in the capitalistic achievement. Busy nece having accomplishments and successes to show for yourself. That's not the kind of survival strategy. I think that's really gonNA help right now. In a pandemic getting awards and being impressive and looking cool those are not gonNA save us right now so we have an opportunity here to get discomfort able with shame and some of our other negative feelings. So that we can re-evaluate on the other side as to how we wanna live right now. What is the best strategy to get through this and I really? I really want to touch on this idea of self-improvement this idea of always trying to get better and better. You know like that's what I'm doing. I'm always self improving and I'm always trying to get better and I don't WanNa say that that's entirely a bad strategy but there's no question that at the core of it. It really is motivated by not feeling enough. If I felt like I was inherently enough just the way I am without any changes and any improvements or any successes or any forward motion just me sitting in a pile of mud demand. Nothing if that really was enough I would probably have a different relationship with self-improvement. I'm not exactly sure that relationship is yet but I can tell that this whole idea of having to always be good having to be trying so hard isn't quite the way I want to be but now I can already see the rub there. It's like I need self acceptance about the fact that I'm not perfect and I need solve acceptance about the fact that I am imperfectly constantly. Trying to be more perfect. Whatever the solution is I think there is something to the idea of being honest transparent and authentic. It's not about me always trying to get better or be the best or be as good as I can be. It's more about honoring what I actually am. Instead of always trying to improve what I am is just sort of like here is what I am and from that place of acceptance. I think there's an opportunity to be leaning into the positive reinforcement of. What do I want to do now? Not what do I have to do to be better? Not what should I do to improve just given? This is where I'm at right. Now what do I want next and it might be that I want to learn more or that I want to grow like that would lean into the positive reinforcement again and that might be very authentically what I WANNA do and it would be a much healthier way for me to self improve or whatever you WANNA call it then leaning into the negative reinforcement of I need to be better. I should be better. I have to be better and probably sometimes I'll lay it all out there and be like. Oh that's fine. I'm GONNA take a nap. Nothing so it might be worth examining some of these things that seem really positive about making yourself better making the world better. These ideas of improvement to get really granular. Release Zoom in on them and see if you can differentiate once again where you are being motivated by the negative reinforcement of shame and where you could lean into the positive reinforcement of the good feelings that you authentically want to pursue for their own sake. Because they feel good and they're meaningful and they add to your well being that subtle distinction might be where we crossed the line between this busy busy productivity culture and this really meaningful sense of purpose and flow and creativity. And if you do in counter the negative reinforcement if that is what's really alive behind your productivity. Then that's Okay. All you need to do is feel and accept that all you need to do is just sit in the discomfort of it until it passes and when you get to the equilibrium on the other side. You can ask yourself once again. Okay what do I actually want to do now

US King Lear Wade Shakespeare Aj thirty five years ten years one hand
Amazon Trailerspective

Trailer Junkies Podcast

1:11:50 hr | 2 years ago

Amazon Trailerspective

"And we'll do the, oh my God, I'm getting high off the smell skunk weed. Nice. Only have trailers and posters to judge a movie, Jim strikeout to answer the age old question, will you see. Hey, Ted, Ted word teddy, I don't know. What do you go by these days? I guess ten episodes thirty six. How you doing? Just Ted Jimmy and yes, I'm doing well. How are you? All right. Well, I'll get into that. I'm doing okay, but I had a hiccup this week that caused this to record later a day later, and I'm still not one hundred percent, but we'll get to that. All right. Well, before we get to it, we'll do a couple of quick hits here couple couple couple just to all right. All right. So the first one is Eureka Eureka. I had an Piff Unie. So you Rica's show from scifi back in two thousand six. Yeah. And it was on for six seasons, and now Amazon has it and they've repackaged the series and they put this trailer out on their platform, Amazon prime, and it's a little one minute season promo and it sells the whole thing. But the interesting thing to me was it's, you know, it's not sold as being an old show. It doesn't tell you where it's coming from her, whereas going yet stop right there. This is an old show. This isn't an old show that Seifi cancelled Amazon bought the rights to in now they're like rebooting it. That's what I thought the trailer was. The trailer definitely comes off as a reboot. Yeah, but, but it's not. It's just a, it's a wrap. So they re. Repackaged, the six seasons of the show, and then they are just putting it out and it's all available to you on Amazon prime. Oh, wow. Here here. I'm thinking. It's like, you know, they kept the same cast, you know, and the whole thing's going on. And all of a sudden it's like here you go like the show ended. And like let's I mean thought I season anyway. Now you can see the whole thing. Yeah, it was for otherwise. So I think that's the thing I think they tested it. It seems to held up to being in the current day and and it still is in the future still has futuristic stuff in it. So, well, it scifi scifi. Not to be confused Sifi right. So what's your, what's your take on the spelling? I mean I'm kinda. I was always hurt by changing from c. I'm sorry s. f. I two s y f. I s y f y f s y f y? You're right. So yes, the new, the new nomenclature I was I was in the family right around when it happened. I was at over at Bravo at that time. So I think it was like twelve years ago ten years ago when they changed over and hasn't been that long, I think so. Wow. So they wanted to branch out from doing just straight John rest pieces and they thought if they could change the spelling of their name, but kind of keep the pronunciation of their name that they could bridge. Both that they could keep the brand equity that they built into being the scifi channel, but then also be able to branch out from being just science fiction. Yeah, yeah. And a lot of people, a lot of people hated it. We kind of thought it was a silly thing to do at the time, but now as the years have plotted along, I, I think it was the right thing to do. I think I think it worked. You know, there's a little bit of a hiccup at the time, but I think in the long run, I think they're a winner with s. y. y. And I mean, the reality is by. By the time it gets to this point, you know, like you said, twelve years ago. I mean, people are just so used to it and you have a whole generation of people who probably never knew the old scifis. What's the point anyway? I guess it worked right now and worked. So they're repackaging and Edano. Maybe I'll catch back up with, like I said, I watched the first season and I don't know why I fell out of favor. It's just who knows why we just stopped watching it. It wasn't there for you to binge you needed to binge it, you know, and graduate school to time. And I mean, who knows what was going on, but yeah, we just stopped watching it, you know? But whatever I might, I mean, I like the first season, it's a fun thing. I think it fits with their whole the feel of Amazon, Amazon prime. You know, it's got the smiling face in it. You know it has that upbeat kind of tune to it as far as a a platform and a studio. So that's, I think this another reason I chose it to kind of open our show is that. It really fits in the overall feel of Amazon prime and Amazon. When you think of Amazon, you smile because you're going to get stuff when you have when you come home and that Amazon boxes on your doorstep, it's it's a good thing. I forgot. I forgot what I've ordered, but I ordered something and I'm going to be happy. It's like you're gonna drunk drunk order been. So that's the first quake hit. And then the second quick hit. Hopefully you have something to add to the homecoming season. One teaser trailer, very excited to see Julia Roberts in a TV space in a, you know, in a series space teaser trailer opens with just Radiohead. You know, the Radiohead lyrics fit perfectly into the setup for this show. Julia Roberts is a psychiatrist, you know, dealing with troops coming home with PTSD, wait, wait. Now that was actually what I was thinking. It was you're spot on. Yeah. I mean, my first thought was that she's going to be a therapist in a high end like hotel kind of psych ward. Well, what made you think it was a military Soames coming? Then the title title strictly the title. So this is this is I mean, I think you know, the thing that I saw was spent a lot of money. You know, they spent a lot trailer. They spent a lot of money in the product may spend money on Julia. They spent money on the music. They spent money with Sam Ishmail the robot, da mister robot creator writer. The thing that I saw was the spent a lot of money. It's too high end. Yeah. For like your average soldier to come home to unless I mean, I don't know. Maybe they got like some government grant or something. Yeah, I'll have to say, I'm just I'm happy to hear read. Regular Radiohead than like some slow violin ballad of Radiohead, like so many shows are doing these days. It doesn't make sense. The slowdown Radiohead, Radiohead Moby are already operating trailer speed. Oh yeah, they're already kinda slow. You know what I mean? Like I don't wanna say slow, but like you said, they're like trailer speed like it's not like speed metal, you know, I think every Moby song on on his album play was used in trailers across that whole timeframe. So it has like that half beat. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know, seems cool. I'm looking forward to more. I mean something tells me that you're going to see a lot of flash back footage and then there's gonna be a lot of action scenes kind of really. I mean, I think so, yeah. I mean, why else would you be in PTSD therapy thing? If you're not going to work through what you've been through? Yeah, that that will be interesting. Were you into mister robot? No, I was. I think it might still be going on. I, I fell out of favor with it after like two or three seasons, but it went, it went some crazy places inside the mind of the main character. So I I'm interested to see how that plays out, but he can. He can take two characters in a room and have them talk to each other and have it be very, very dynamic even if they're not leaving the room. So I'm interested to see how the sessions play out. You know? I mean, we'll see. I guess we'll have to see this is only he's our trailer, but while we're waiting for the full trailer, we a beer and get caught up really quick and it will get into the deep dives. Awesome. Let's do it. Bruce. I on the beers. How about you go? I mean, I don't know. Okay. What do you have? So this week yesterday I was having lunch with and, and I said, oh, will let's. Get a traitor jazz because you know, didn't want anything crazy. So I got some stuff at trader Joe's, and while I was because you were worried about the taste tests at at whole foods and people complaining and a huge like latte, like you told me last week, right? Yeah, right, right. And and spending fifteen dollars on a on a on a twenty. Two was a little much that is. So I went to trader Joe's and I picked up some of their hop fresher hop freshener series. So it's an Indian pale ale. It's called Aloha Citra timely for the Hawaiian hurricane. Oh, so sorry for them. But yes, let's crack the beer. And of course the the poor, the pint poor? Yeah. There you go and you like you say the head, you need the head on it, right? Oh, yeah. You wanted to let it let it opened up because that's where all like, you're bitter flavors or you're bitter. Aromas are coming out of, and yeah, I don't know bitter heaven, aroma. I don't know whatever you do want some head on there. You don't want to like, you know, always feel offended when people poor him. So gently that there's no foam. I mean, you gotta have like release it. I went to two birthday parties today and the eleven o'clock birthday party had beers. And I was like, oh, I should just have I always held myself to one beer. It's the morning time shame, but it was a lot. It was. They were lagers, they're good, good lagers, but I but I didn't want. I'm not into loggers. So I had one beer at that birthday party. And then there's a five o'clock birthday party a pool party. And they also had beer at that party. And I again, refrained from having more than one beer because I was like later tonight I'm gonna have that big beer. I wanna make sure that I saved myself for the IP that I chose. There you go the how is it is bright and Hoppy. So it is a nice. It is definitely hop freshener and Aloha Citra I, it's, it's named itself perfectly. Again. This is like a, it's similar to what we're talking about here with Amazon, Amazon, having an Amazon studio and Emma's on having a prime video a place to put it out. This is a traitor, Joe product. So it's, you know, it's. A series made by trader Joe trader Joe's for trader Joe's new neighborhood series. So yeah, so it's it's an interesting thing to have something that's kind of vertically produced produced and distributed by one entity. A lot like a lot of these Amazon products would be looking at today. There you go. I like role that in. So I have one that is produced and distributed by well. Well, I guess they're not distributed, but they're produced by one entity, new Belgium brewery. Oh, it's a good one. Yeah. So this week it is the emperor. It's a h. p. a. hemp pale ale, I guess. I don't know. It's like an IP, but with, you know, made with hemp. I'm interested. I well that smooth out, will it smooth? Will it be smoother than an IP a? I don't know. We're gonna find out seven percent AB by volume. It says, hops and hemp. I came in read that read. Rain, hops, and hemp rain. No, they pour the water over it before because they're so before open this. I, you know, I to those who listen, it's no secret that I, you know, I, I home brew and I want to do a high PA right now, you know, you do your hops and the make well. And so those who are familiar with IP as they're really happy and what I wanna do is do the same thing with hops and everything, but also do a schedule brew of, you know, some bud in next thing. You know, like it's legal now rate. So you making a high p and I found out how to do it and stuff. Now I need to make it and see how it turns out. But anyway, let me open this year. All right, open that up. Okay, and we'll do the, oh my God. I'm getting high off the smell. It's skunk weed. Nice what? Okay. Here we go one. This is new new Belgium, new build in Colorado? Well, Colorado, is that like legal, marijuana? Hey, so do we were in California? Yeah. But while I mean all my God, this like good thing, fight fire, I'd be like getting stoned over here. All right. I'll go. How does how does your school handle that? Like if if it's legal for the state? Yeah, but it's the same thing as alcohol though, like even though alcohol's legal, I mean, if you're sixteen, you can't be getting stoned. Oh, no, no. I meant for the teachers for the faculty. You know? I don't. I think it's always been like hands off like there's never been like urine tests or anything of that name. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, wow, man. This is like. Can you hear? I'm jealous jealous. Smells like it smells like just like weed. Okay. Let me take it sip here. While you're taking a sip, this is. How is it? Is it good off Tarshish, men? This is heavy duty now give a little cough just like you. Rick. Yeah, right. Exactly. I mean, oh, it's it's. Yeah, it is not your typical. Party. Wow, this is this is kinda harsh, but is it? Is it too much? Okay. The second sip wasn't as bad. The first sip was a little bold. Yeah. I don't even know how to describe it. It's like kind of multi, of course. You know, it's a little bit multi. It's not Hoppy. There's there's not a lot of hop flavor. I honestly, I don't. I don't know. One more simple. Mine is you said years is seven percent. Mine is eight and a half. So again, very, very high alcohol content. Yeah. So you're eight and a half and twenty two, seven. And I only have a twelve ounce or so. Found it in the store bought a six pack of it. So first crack of the six pack. I like that. Yeah, it's, you know, it's clean. It's got a nice color gut. This gives me it has that gold color. But yeah, it's like it's flavor is is it's heavy. I mean, it's do you like the Skype, not like a light citrusy kind or anything. I mean, it's kind of a multi like it lay like I got a shave my tongue. Thing, could you say it's dank? Yeah, that might be a good good flavor. It has a flavor profile of dank. Nece. Yeah, it's like a skink. Right? But but not not. I mean, sca- skunk and skank. Those kind of have these negative connotation dank to me is the is the middle ground where you know you're talking about something that has that powerful smell but is still a amenable to what you know you're going to imbibe from it. Well, what I was going to say it's like skink. Right? So you know, you see. Kit the finest skink you know. But you know. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like they don't know how you define it, but I know when I see it and that's kinda how this is like. It's almost like I don't know how to describe the flavor, but you know, when you taste it, it's the same way. When my kids smelled the skunk and my wife smells the skunk. They're all like, oh, it's so gross and disgusting and unlike but kids, I'm sure soon you'll be saying it's a good smell to me. It's a completely pleasant smell. It's it's strong and don't get me wrong. I would hate to be, you know, sprayed down by skunk, but this smelling skunk is you're driving through the the forest or something is not a bad thing for me? Well, it does have a sweet smell, but you know, we're getting way off course back around, but. But Jake or Doug, he's been sprayed three times so far and the smell you smell in the woods when you're driving and the smell you smell. When you're dug, it's skunked. I mean, it is like the worst raw onion smell that you can possibly it's like a raw onion, like I like onion, but it's it's raw onion, like times thousand. Yeah, it is incredible how bad it is and it's nothing like what you would smell in the woods. But anyway, we'll see how it is goes muscle through it and I'll get, you know and we'll do our show. And so we're on the King Lear, so should we? Oh, wait before we do that, how? Yeah, what am I? So so I had a good week. Last week or a couple of weeks ago I ran into Natasha, Hendrick shopping. That enough. I showed you, I took a selfie with her. That was fun. She's from the movie species. I don't know if you remember that movie. I do. Yeah, big talent, you know, huge bombshell from the ninety s and the two, thousands. And then the was last week. And then yesterday on Friday in the morning, we went to our Starbucks down in Burbank and meal Yovich was there, and my wife was like, tapping me. She was like meal Yovich milio vich. She's like multi pass. The from the fifth element of you seen the fifth element I have, yes. So she was in the store instill in Starbucks, and I couldn't tell if she was she was under phone and she was wasn't kind of engaging with the with the crowd, but we made eye contact in the store and I was like an has, do you want a selfie with her? And I'm like, yeah, I totally want with her, but I don't wanna bother her. Looks like I might be bothering her. So I didn't ask yourself and then we go to our car and we are car and head to work. And as I'm leaving the parking lot milio vicious crossing the street who is meal Yovich the lead actress in fifth element. Okay. Okay. Where did you see Natasha? I saw into tasha a at target. And you protest her, she did. She approach you say, wait your your trailers. So in target, she was in front of me in line at the cashier and I was, I had know gone to the cashier ahead of my wife and family because I wanted to make sure that I could get in line. So my my Bryce and I, my son and I got in line and braces like need water. And I was like, all right, there's a water fountain over there. So I sent him off to the to the bathroom with their water fountain is. And when he went off to the water fountain, Natasha turned around and said, oh, well, you missed the guy from Starbucks Starbucks inside of the target, and he was handing out water. And I was like, well, this is so nice. You know, she's an actress and she's just talking to a stranger in line at target. You know, while she's buying a welcome mat and a whole bunch of stuff for her new house. So I'm like, all right. She approached me a she. She broke the ice by saying something nice to me, and I was assigned to just say, all been big fan, you know? And I said, I'm a big fan and she said, oh, thank you very much. And then I said, can I get a selfie with you? And she goes, oh, well, I'm not made up. And I said, well, that's why I asked, because, you know, if you don't want it, I totally get. And you're like. And she said, no, that's fine. Let's get a selfie. And so we pose, I put my phone and it's out of space. I've trying to get its turn. I was like great to delete pictures with the tasha steadier waiting to dig a selfie. And luckily my wife finally caught up and like an take picture with the Taj. And and pulled out her phone and took our picture, and it was great. That's hilarious. So anyway, so we're leaving the Starbucks yesterday and milio of inches walking out and walking across the parking lot. And we make had contact again and she's like offering me to drive through and I'm like, no, no, no, please walk across the street. So she walks to her car. And as she crosses in front of my car, I roll them into an Icee to her. And I say we're big fans because I guess that's what I say to everybody who I'm a big fan and I wanted to say like multi pass yet, but it's weird to yell people's lines at them. They said, what twenty years ago or so that. So I just said, big fan and and smiled at her, and she was caught off guard by the bureau, the accolade and she felt it felt like she was genuinely cool about it, and, oh, with the tasha headed or my business card. And I was like here, listen to junk is talk. The podcast. But I think my new thing is when I run into them answer this is more obtrusive than getting a selfie with them, but I want to get them to do an audio drop. Do you like voice according for the show? Totally more obtrusive, but I would definitely say, let's try it. I thought it'd be cool to say like, hey, I'm live. It should. I've never listened to the trailer junkies. God cast totally like here. Talk here just say you've ever heard us. And his hold the phone and get away from Ukraine, drop it. How was your week? I was gonna say, I could say my week was not nearly as fun, seeing two gorgeous actresses from the mid ninety. That's true. Yeah, but me I had. Some fillings old Phillies from behind. So I guess we got that in common mid-nineties and but they were kinda wearing thin and because there were thin, I was getting some sensation when I was eating, you know, so dentists. It was just my annual earned annual my biannual cleaning and stuff, and they taught my city goes, oh yeah. Let me look at those and he checked make sure my teeth row case. Yeah, you know, they're thin or warm based on the x rays, blah, blah, blah, the whole thing. So I went back a couple days later and he cleans them out. He clears them out repacked. Some does them all and teeth are brand new again, you know, and, and so, but you have the novacaine and this is Thursday morning and we record Friday nights. And today is Saturday. So I told Ted, I can't record man. I must have bit my tongue or something, not knowing because I'm under novacaine half your faces them with that. I mean, my tongue was like, I couldn't move. I couldn't talk. It hurts to swallow. Like the whole side of my tongue was just like half raw, you know? So. But anyway, I'm about ninety percent now because the mouth heels quick, but but yeah, I know meal Yovich or you know that stuff. So, I mean, unfortunately, mine was. You know, novacaine well, I don't know that sounds like it's, I don't know some Russian actress novacaine. But anyways, so my week was kinda, you know, well, the end of my week was a little bit rough with, you know, like dental work. Yeah, there you go. Awesome. All right. Well, I'm glad you had a better a better week than me. So anyway, let's let's hit King Lear and we'll move on get along so awfully. Yeah. So King Lear is another prime video trailer. Why don't you stop really quick. Give us a primer. Of prime versus Amazon studios. I know there is a difference and I don't know if I fully understand what the is. I did not fully understand it this week either. And this is what why said I was glad we had an extra day because yesterday on Friday on Thursday, the new suspicious trailer dropped and the president of motion motions. One of those trailer houses that we're talking about he posted on his linked in the new trailer, and he said, look at the new Amazon studio feature trailer that we did for them, you know? So I said to him, I wrote back, I a little comment on his linked in, and I said, hey, great trailer because I do, I love the trailer. It's a little, it's it's up. It's unsettling, but we'll get to that in a minute. But what's the difference between. Amazon prime and Amazon studio, and because I was asking the trailer house, I thought, hey, I kinda know Albert Chang. I did a couple had a couple of coffees with Albert Chang. Many years ago I don't. He probably doesn't remember me, but I thought I'd tag him in this link in this question and Albert Chang didn't write back yesterday, but he did write back today on Saturday. So I will tell you, we'll quote, Albert Chang. Our Chang said prime video is the distribution platform think ABC and Amazon studio produces makes the originals think Warner Brothers. So I like that kind of like the platform versus the production company. So one is essentially distributing third party content in the others like direct to consumer. Right. So you think if it has the Amazon studio. Oh banner on it, and it has that opened marquee. It could release in theaters like Manchester by the sea, and then it could be, you know that it's going to eventually go to prime, but it's going to have that that that label the branding of Amazon studios. Amazon studios can go straight to theater. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I think I think that's what I was trying to get at the idea that with Amazon studios, they're going to put it in the theaters to allow it to be eligible for Oscar contention and various other awards were supposedly entering the word season right now it feels really early, but yes, so I think that opens it up to awards. It opens up to different winding of releases or theatrical release, and then a string release after or shortly after. But King Lear is a prime video products or prime video trail. So it means that that probably Amazon studio. Amazon studios didn't produce it, but Amazon is the platform in which it will be released. So do you know who produced it? I do not. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think so when you talk about it as when when Albert says it's an ABC product, there's plenty of ABC programming that is produced by FOX and CBS and NBC, and all of those other broadcast networks also have production arms. So it's interesting to say that we're gonna put Amazon prime video branding all over this thing, but it we're going to kind of obscure the production company that made it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know. So I like I like that that that nuanced association. It's kind of like old school television, you know. Yeah, yeah. But this is a movie. It's it's a one off. You know, it's a, it's a take on Shakespeare. Do you want to get into the pro the content of the trailer? Of course. I mean, you know, Anthony Hopkins, you know, I mean, looks really cool. I like how it's a modern adaptation of Shakespeare in today's world and well, today's British world, I guess. I mean, it's not American British, but. I might watch it. I'm not sure if I will or not. You know it. I think it's just if I'm sitting there and I see it now that I know about it, I'm probably going to watch it. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a low bar for me as far as like if I see the prime video, I know it's going to be streaming. So I know that actually it's going to be it's going to be very acceptable and like you said, Anthony Hopkins, why not? What do you have to lose from watching Anthony Hopkins in a juicy roll like King Lear, you know, I think it it. It feels like it can go so many places, you know, and we're both fans of man in high castle. Yeah. So I think this has that kind of vibe to it where it's like modern day, but with a classic like a historical take on something that is supposedly set in modern times. Like when you see, you know, cannons firing. And stuff. I mean, I can only imagine Shakespeare had in mind like catapults or something, you know, but what would the other thing I love Shays. Yeah, exactly. And the other thing I love seeing too is like your tip. You typically see from a trailer in theaters on such and such date. And with Amazon, you're seeing stream on such and such a date. You know, like it's just it's just a different twist, or I should say a different twist. It's a twist on the typical trailer like ending when it says like coming, you know, Christmas twenty nineteen or something, you know or twenty eighteen? No, I think it's bold. I think it's a strong place to put it. You know, stream September twenty eighth total. Yeah, it's, it's really it's trying to get your audience into a place where they understand and. Cool. With the idea of it not being a sub par offering, you know it. It's just a different way of doing something. It's not. It's not a below. You know a lot. A lot of times the theatrical experience is always tried to thumb its nose at television. You know, it's always try to be better than television when when television went sixteen by nine and went, you know, wide-screen. Then theatrical went wider screen. It's like the two, three five projection was was only brought in because televisions were wide screen. You know, it's, it's like everything that the the theatrical space does is to thumb its nose at watching things in the house. You know, they have to give you a reason to get out of the house and go see it because otherwise people just stay home. Yeah, yeah. And the big thing too that I think is was funny about that, you know, at least in my opinion, you know, when I saw streaming. Like I don't September wet. No, September twenty. Eighth twenty eighth thirty go. So it's, you know, streaming on September twenty eighth, I figure they caught up our stick because they know all we do is stream stuff. I think it's just too easy, right? It's too easy. One of the things that I've definitely noticed in net flicks and now we're talking about this. So when you talk about how much lead time we have so in Seattle space, typically, you get a very strong for two, three to four month lead time, and that's for the main trailer. That's you know, that's that's really short in the main trailer. You know when you're talking about the teaser trailer, it's eight to six months out, you know, you have, you hit. You hit a couple of benchmarks in between there. This is the main trailer for this King Lear piece. It dropped in on August twentieth and the piece is the, the movie is going to be available to stream September twenty eighth. So that's a month. Breath and eight days. So it's very short, short timeframe, and who knows what other kind of material they're gonna release for this maybe a couple of different cells a couple of different angles, Samphan Hopkins Hopkins, it's huge, right? It's a big big production. It looks like they spared no expense in the execution of this production Shakespeare eighty. It's, it's something that needs a little gravitas when you're producing something like this. So it's very compressed. And and I think when Netflix did the Cloverfield paradox drop on the Super Bowl day that was really thumbing its nose at marketing in the media space in the overall in it was saying, like, we're gonna give you a promo for something. We haven't given you a promo for we'll give you a trailer or something, and guess what you could see tonight after the game and that compression. To me, that's the shot her ground the marketing world now, no, I don't think anyone reacted to it as far as I could see, but I felt a visceral shake in the marketing sphere where you know, we can no longer take six months to produce. You know the hype behind something. You know, it's like now you see stuff like King Lear. It's got one month. It's got one month to build, and then it's gonna back in. It's endless and I think you know, there's a lot of things times on YouTube. People don't wanna put promos out for a smaller things until it's available on the platform because people immediately wanna go from watching a trailer for something to actually watching that thing. Yeah. So I think this month that we see this month eight days, I think it's going to continue to get compressed. So Romanoff's you'd think it's big or small Romanov's big too. Yeah. Off is huge. Remote office is huge. It's a series. In this and this is the second teaser. They had a big announced spot. You know, they're rolling this out a little bit longer, but we'll see how the timing works of this. This is the second teaser and it dropped eight fourteen and the release for this season is going to be ten, twelve, and it's it's Romanoff. But in the actual piece that says the when the woman is talking about, it says Romanov with v, can I get into that? I would love for you to. I don't. I don't. I don't know anything about that. So that's what I did a little bit of research because I was like, wait, Romanoff and Romanov. And what's the diff f f f NV for the last spelling? Yeah, it can only assume that the show is going to be a parody of the official non-official Romanov family association. Romanov with v that is formed in nineteen seventy nine by the late nNcholas, a aroma off spelled with two Fs and the current group uses the most common spelling Romanov with the v. even though under the monarchy. The official translation was Romanoff to us. So journalists have sometimes confuse the Romanov family, the family association with the Russian imperial house. Okay, but they're completely separate. I is a private unofficial group and the second is a Russian dynasty, and then the two living Dina dinosaur of the imperial house, the grand duchess, Maria, and Grand Duke, George, they're not even members of the Romanov family association, so they're not even part of it. But anyway, so all the current Romanov family association members are non diner. Mastic may and they're descended from numerous non dynastic marriages contract it after the revolution of nineteen seventeen by various male dinas. I don't even know what that means. Well, I think the thing that I thought the only thing that I didn't do any research, so thank you for that. But I thought it had to do with this the surrealistic alphabet and the surreal, ceramic language of the, you know, Russians in Sylvia's and all of that sort of does so. So. So I thought we should ask mill Yovich next time. I see her about that because, oh, and was following on Instagram and saw that she got written to insurrection, and she could actually right back to this person in ceramic as well. So I don't know how you do that on phone. If you just switch your keyboards to ceramic may. But we could ask her next time we see our, we'll, we'll ask you about the Romanoff thing. But the bottom line is you have the dynasty Russians and the dynasty Russians and you have the Russian Romanovs and the well, I guess they might still be rushing, but you and then you have the this association. Russians that have nothing to dynasty, which is what I series seems to be about. And it's just to me, it seems like a parody in a play on this whole like, because there's like supposedly like thousands of these people. Well, it's very confusing, right? So it's perfect. It's perfect. You know ground for this kind of confused. Exactly. Yeah. Like I haven't even the where I'm at in the story in all of a sudden, you know, like or where I'm at and like the description of it and it's like, I'm already starting at like off kilter. Well, I think that was a cool thing about this trailer. You know, it's a teaser trailer, so it's not meant to give a lot of the the plot points out, but the way that this is rolled out. They have spent a lot of money on this. It's estimated seventy million dollar budget season. I'm I don't know that season budget seems low to me TV space where people are spending a hundred thousand one hundred million dollars on an episode of the crown. But that's the kind of thing that it, it's when you spend that amount of money on something. That hundred million dollars an episode. That's, that's why I'm saying you can't you how you going to how are you going to pay that off with ten dollars subscriber? A hundred million. So wait, you're talking wait a minute here. How many how many episodes? Ten ten episodes. Well dollar show. No. No. I think like the high end like the like one episode is one hundred thousand. I mean hundred. I don't know. We should look this up. Let me let me not let me dry. I'm drinking so. Okay. What I want to say the about the show is when they go like I'm a rope enough your Rome enough. I'm wouldn't you like to be Romanov to, right? So I feel like I saw what I need to see like they're all Romanov's. Where's this going? Even gonna go is or is it just going to be like stick the whole time? Like we're all Romanovs and then it's just like fun and hijinks and I don't know. It just it didn't sell me. It didn't did it. Sell us. I was interested. It's interesting to me. So fixing didn't sell me though. I, I think what it's doing is it's selling a legacy of madman. It's showing you the cast and it's just showing you a little bit of fun. You know, it's punching. It's punching a little more fun to this. It's humor, yes. So I was wrong. The thing I thought one hundred million dollars an episode. It's one hundred million dollars for the two seasons. Okay. Okay, so so that's that's fifty million dollars a season fill out money though. And now this is seventy million dollars for the season of the Romanovs. So Romanoff's sorry. Yeah. So I think they're trying to put that number out there to say it's more expensive than the crown. It's more expensive than house of cards. Hey, we're spending money on putting stuff in the television spaces. Well, now is this an Amazon studios? Third party? So it fee because it's Amazon prime. Oh, you don't know, then you don't know necessarily whose production company. Okay, but you know the distribution arm, right? Sure. Yeah. I mean, I might watch it just, you know, more than likely, I'll I'll at least like take the temperature on an episode or two just to see like, is this something I want to commit to? And then if not, okay, I'll back out no harm, no fall, but I don't know. Right now. It doesn't have me. Now. Did you watch marvelous MRs Mazel. No, I did not. I didn't. Well, Franken Barbara watched it, and I just started to watch it and it to another expensive series has this kind of mad men feel to it. So I think that they're trying to build out this spate Amazon's trying to build this space for themselves where it's this quick wit space and it's like a happier, upbeat, mad men kind of feel. Okay. So I think where you Rica matches its taste in style, and at least the smile on its face. Homecoming has this, you know, dark undertone, and it's weird to see a smile at the end of this dark undertone. It's weird to see the smile of the Amazon prime logo. Yeah, because you're setting up this dark moody space, and then you see a smile and you're like, ooh, Amazon, I feel happy, you know, and then King Lear the same way. It's it's it's a Anthony Hopkins serious role, and you don't know how it's going to progress. It's it's a tragedy that says Shakespearean grade tragedy. So it's, you know, war it's all this stuff, and then it has the Amazon smile. So it kind of puts you in a different place at the end every time I see that Amazon logo, I have a happy association and I think some stuff fits with it as far as media goes and other stuff doesn't. And and you justaposed that with net and Netflix. Is really done its best to have the net flicks be this clear, the clear brand. It's a brand, but it doesn't leave any kind of distinct feeling behind it. You know, it's that red logo with the net flicks it and it sits there and no, no matter what you see, you can. You can sit with the feeling that you get from whatever it is that you saw previous to it or after it, and it doesn't lean you either one way or another. I couldn't agree more with that juxtaposition of the Amazon smile, little guy and what it's trying to or maybe not even representing. So with that said, we need to move into suspicion that has nothing to do with smiles. Yes, it's by far the dark darkest thing, we cover this week. Oh yeah. I mean, it is creeps Ville. You know what's what's your initial impression? So I'll give you my three rd read for this and I through to the other couple on nightmare. High-octane. So you know how you call something's nightmare fuel. I watched this thing half a dozen times and it. It's creepy. You know, it's just like everything about is it? It is unsettling you know, the music is unsettling this, the sound design. It's it putting you in different places. When when you hear the rattle of that hook on the table. It's just like it hits you. So viscerally in every way, and then it has dance in it and you're like, what is what kind of dance is this? You know, I'm not. I'm not into this dance, you know this black swan dance space, whereas right ranting, you know, it just it's, it's just everything about it is unsettling. So do you typically get into like demon haunted movies or. No, I don't. I don't mean either. I don't either. I'm not in the horse base, but to me, this has like some kind of added nuance to it. Well, horror is one thing in like a demon haunt is like another thing, you know, like team in haunted movies, and I don't know if that's a genre. I mean, I'm, I'm kinda just, you know, making it up, but but they tend to be like the get you in the mind, you know, like they get you wear like a horror would be more like just a slasher. Maybe that's a slasher. I don't know. It's like I don't know where this falls, but all I know is it's like super creepy. Yeah, and I'm probably not going to watch it be for no other. I mean, I'm sure it's probably like well done. I'm sure it's like high end music and cinematography. I'm sure it's an amazing like piece of art. Yeah, but I want to go to sleep in not have to worry about what the heck I'm gonna be dreaming, you know, like you said, it's nightmare high-octane. So what do you think about the do you? Did you read anything about the actor playing the old man in this? No, I didn't do tell there is some back story that till the swan should we say, should we say spoilers possible spoil it? Well, we don't know nobody. Anything that comes out as mere speculation unless you are unless you are a writer or I have, no, I have no insider information whatsoever. So it is speculated that till the Swinton is the old man. Okay. And then you know, you think, ooh, this is tasty little morsel of a fact right, and and now we all have IMDB. So I'm be has do. Play into it. And when you click on lutes abor store, f- cook on this guy because he has one credit. It is one credit is this movie and you're just like, I don't know. It's such a thin such a thin dossier on. I'm db for a very, very old band. It like what did did did the production company say, like I'm gonna play play ball with us a little bit, and I think I'm DB's done this before where they have Lee something credited or there's a spoiler by exposing something like this, you know. So it's, it's very, it's it's fun to look at this and say, you know the it, it looks like they're trying to hide this, but I don't know. What do you think? Well, what I think is it's never too late. You can always get breaking acting. I apologize to lutes abor store if you're a real person, but I doubt it. No, I don't know. I mean, they might be just putting something out to like keep scenes. I don't know something under wraps. So until they feel it's time to exit release the, you know, the the goods as it were. But no. I mean, the main thing is, like I said, I mean, I think if you're into this space if you're into this John. Yeah, go all in jump in both feet. Don't even hold your nose. Man. Just go for it. What me? I'm a little cautious. Water might be cold up to my toe in, you know, check it out because like I said, I mean, I don't wanna have nightmares. I wanna go to sleep at night. You know, I gotta go to work in the more. Yeah, it's kind of like, here's my analogy. Here's my knowledge. Okay, younger. And you had like Friday the thirteenth part eight, you know, or whatever the heck it was part nineteen yet and it's like, you know, you're going and you're, you're in for like slasher movie, and then you leave your Buddy's house because it was on VHS and you're looking over your shoulder as you walk down the street to go home and you're like freaking out until you get into like your bedroom or something. And then even like sleep with the lights on you do all this stuff. Right? And you're like, eighteen? Well, you don't care, right. So it's the same thing like you're going to go mountain biking, you know, you're eighteen. What do you care? You'd like rubber bands? You crash, you break bones. It doesn't matter. You recover the next day, go back home out and biking and all this stuff. So what happens though, as you get older and know, we well know because we're getting older is now you go mountain biking, you break bones, you know, maybe you're playing like, you know, my father-in-law plays volleyball, like he's breaking his knees every week every week, right? So you're like going to watch something like this when you're young, it don't matter because you have no life experience to know that a nightmare is right around the corner because whatever is in this is going to get roped right into your experiences you've had over the past like forty years, whatever rate and act action sports are the same way. So what you're going to do is you're going to crash, you're going to be like, damn, I gotta go to work tomorrow. I can't be riding this way me more. And it's the same thing like I can't watch this. I gotta go to work tomorrow. I need a good night's sleep. It's the same thing. I don't know if that makes if that's a good analogy, it makes sense. But you get the idea. So. So my my take on your analogy is the fact that life experience will make something that's abstract like this deeper for you like a seventeen year old or twenty year old. Watching this, they only have their life experience to roll into the abstract -ness of the horror of whatever this is. They watch it on the surface, right? They watch it in their with their twenty years. The twenty years is the only thing they have reference to exactly. But in our double that in our forty years of life or however long we've been alive. We have double the experiences to to to draw to draw from. We have that much more baggage to put into something distract and strapped as this is a woman slamming herself into the merit wall of dance studio. It Etta made. It's like, it doesn't. It doesn't really. It doesn't make any sense to you very superficially. But if you think of it in your lifetime, we have twice as much things to associate that with which makes the nightmares even worse. I like the analogy of saying something that is abstract hits, older, peoper people deeper than younger people because you have to draw from your personal experience. Totally. Yeah. Like in other words, like I'm not gonna watch because I gotta go to work tomorrow and because it got to go to work, I need a good night's sleep. I agree. Anyway. Finally, what I've been wanting to get to all night. He's Jack Ryan and I wanted to cut it because I thought, oh, what cut it for time now, hell them as my favorite. So this this trailer dropped a little while ago dropped on six eleven. Yeah. Well, we sleep enough, right? And we've been off and it it. It comes out at the end of this month. So eight thirty one August thirty. First. I can't wait for this show to be out. I love John Chrysantus key. I was a little lukewarm on a quiet place, and I know that's not a very popular opinion, but I just had a lot of anticipation for it and it kind of hit me in the middle. So that's that. I still like it. I'm going to watch it again to hopefully get a better viewing of it, but I've still will still all in on John chrysanthemums and here's my thing. So I was watching. I did a little bit of research and I was watching Comecon videos, hey, you know, videos and takes on all this stuff. And every single thing I watched John croissants key was. Compared with Jim helper. Every single one. They're like, well, we chose them because like he wanted to get away from TV and and everything. You know, the writers, the directors, the nalysts, the show, the moderators, like everybody was like Jim helper, Jim helper and like, man, this guy will never live down the office, you know, and and then they were saying, like, even the writers were like, he's the perfect character because it starts off. He's just a guy in an office, you know, like at the CIA and that's why they thought he would be good for this. But the one question I have is and I'm just going to throw this to you before it even comes out. Do you think that like while he's in the CIA and he's an analyst and all this stuff like his buddies, guns going to be like an jello, mold. But. So rain Johnson has a production company. It's called the soap pancake. Okay. Okay. And we were actually. We're doing some work with soap pancake, and I was trying to get some contracts with going with them and it wasn't working. So I sent them a an Email that just had a picture of Jila mold with a stapler. They completely ignored it. And we just kept going as like, oh, baby, I hit a raw Dir. Like, I'm not. I'm not emailing rain, John rain, rain, Johnson. I'm not emailing or I'm not emailing rainn Wilson. So I just took it too far and I was like pullback on that. But anyway, so yes, to me, that's like the first thing they go like they're so many gifts of the office. It was on for so long. It's such it's such it's woven into the lexicon of a social life. Jim, Jim, Jim helper is Chris Inskeep is Jim how Brit there is no separating the two people. Oh, I know it's like you just see those like big button is and it's like messy hair, you know, and it's like there's Jim helper, you know. But I think the trailer doesn't. I think a trailer does a great thing. It does the setup of the character as the gym helper character otaly and even puts an audience member in the space where there's a woman saying to camera, sounds kind of boring. And then a chopper comes in and drags out of the party and we're off to the races, you know, I think that's that is the place that it helps us separate him from Jim Halpern. Well, and the other side of to end ever new, Jack Ryan watched the wire. Because you know he's following the money. Individual behind these transactions could be targets on. You're the one that knows about this mystery man. I was just following. You follow drugs, you get drug addicts and drug dealers, but you start to follow the money and you don't know where to fuck is gonna take you. You always gotta follow the money out of follow the money because that's what it takes to or. Well, you don't know where it's going to take you to as Lester Freeman told you, it always leads to the truth. Yeah, no doubt. But yeah, I mean, overall, though it looks awesome. I mean, you ever dude, who is like literally a guy working in an office, you know, like he's working in the office. And I mean, it's like a born movie played from a desk jockey. I mean, it's like it just, it looks cool, man. I'm looking forward to it. I'm also excited to see that Wendell Pierce got promoted out of Baltimore. You know, I mean, because like he's no longer there. He went. He went, he went federal, he went federal is exactly that's exactly what I wanted to say. Yeah, no, I, you know, overall, though, like it's just so I don't know. Like over the top, it's just the borne movie. But yeah, I love these kind of movies. And then what and this is a series right? And I, oh yeah, yeah, it's a searing. What do you, what do you think of them playing down the fact that this is Michael bay? Oh, I don't think it's. I mean, well. Okay. Don't bring that into the markets to say, you know, like you don't have to say like the guy who brought you all these great movies and all this stuff. Right? But why not just say, you know, like Michael bay presents or something, or, you know, I don't know. I think they should at least like mention it. I thought I thought so I maybe maybe they're doing maybe they've done it in other places, but I feel like it deserves a card banking on junk Khorasan ski. I mean, I don't know. Yeah, maybe, yeah. Maybe they think Michael bay is kind of passe and he's just putting together the action stuff for them, but I would have liked to have seen it. You know, it really it feels like bad boys. It feels like it has that kind of energy of a young Michael bay. So I like it. I like the idea of Michael bay being part of the production of this by think they could have gained something by by adding a legacy card for Michael bay. And you know, maybe they, maybe they will. Well, I mean, I don't know. Maybe they wanna get away from like, like, I don't know what is Michael Bay's like Armageddon. I guess what he's famous for Ray Armageddon. Bad boys. Yeah. Yeah, maybe they wanna get away from his like nineties. I don't know. Like I think they're banking on John. Krasinski is my opinion. Yeah. But no, I mean, I'm looking forward to and I'm gonna watch this one for for certain and you're gonna you're normal binge where you watch an episode and a half. You know, we've met the boys Donut like seven forty five will hit Amazon prime like seven, fifty two. It's over like eight like forty nine and it's like, get brush teeth. There you go, you know. And then like our binging is like EV one episode of night every night until we're done. That's cool. Yeah. You know, and then we go to the next show. But yeah, I mean, you know, and like you said too, I mean, I agree with you. You do like the whole thing or like in in like two nights or one night, it's too much information like you can't just it. All right. It's a so much information coming in and the hope things done. And then somebody says, like, would you think about that one scene and you're like, I don't remember anything. I remember I remember general Malays than I had while I was watching for all thing. Exactly. So what did you think what he jumps through the window and then like killed that guy, and you're just like, wait, what? What, what do you do? I will say I did binge something this week. I binged magic for humans. Magic for human magic for humans is a half hour six episode series on net flicks by hours worth. Yeah, Justin will will. So while you're looking that up, how about we start wrapping this the this episode? And I wanted to say just to finish the emperor here. So I still have like half a and I've been choking this one down. You don't like it. It's save. Save it when you come down and I'll, I'll drink the rest of it because I want to try one now. I know totally gets them but or brings whatever. But but the thing is like half, well, how maybe three quarters in like I could smell breath like it's that bad. You know, like this is harsh. I don't know. I don't know. It's like, I don't know if I'll buy it again. It's a little. It's a little brutal little too much. I said, if you don't, if you don't finish the six pack, definitely bring whatever you don't have down when you come down in a couple of weeks and I'll I'll take him off your hands. Well, by that point, probably finish it but still bring you some. I'll go back and get some, you know? Yeah. So Justin Willman is a magician and actor and he was the host of cupcake wars. So he said, you know, he had the promo for this coming out this series that he did on net flicks a six part series about just like streetside magic, just a fun, a fun take on magic with strangers and and in the streets of LA and different themes over the six episodes and they're half hour pieces. So you're like, oh, like you said, like we said last week, you know, ten episode. Thirty minutes thing is is a five hour commitment. So this was our three, our commitment just little bit over a movie. I could, you know, watching the background, it's kind of like a background thing Washington the day. I tweeted that I was watching it and the main lead was on Twitter. I guess and he liked it. So I was like, I kept tweeting at him and we kind of went back and forth little bit, not a lot of commenting, but I was commenting a and he was just kind of liking things and seeing things. So it was neat to have that kind of a little added interaction with it. So is neat that you could reach out and touch at least the Twitter account of someone that's in- involved in it and in real time, and then it kind of it was a nice magic show. So brings you closer than six degrees of. Yes, it's one degree of Justin Willman go at it was and it was a night. It is a nice show. I was every time I watch something. I want it to be something I could share with a family, but it's a little. It goes a little blue here and there some like forget it. Wait for the kids to just be old enough. Yeah, yeah, but but it was. It was worth three hours. You know, it's it's a nice respite from that out to worry about like what's going on. You know, hey, listen to this episode to figure out what you were talking about. Check it out. Kid, you know the hampers getting to me. But here about six ounces in and I'm twenty maybe twenty ounces into. His in, you know, but now I had a beer before this while we were waiting to get to our beer. Awesome. You know, but, but yeah, the hamper. I don't know. Man, like I said, I could smell my breath. It's just like not your Cup of tea? Yeah. This is a little bit rougher me. It's a little bit referee and you know, and there's a lot of beers. I won't turn down, but I don't think I'd order this one if I had to, but I'll definitely bring some though guy. Yeah. Oh, here. Let me give you my three rd of us for the couple of other ones. Oh, yes. Jack, Ryan go for. Right. So for King Lear, my three review is not Julie taymor not Julie taymor. That's the spuria now this is King Lear. So here at the Howkins was in a previous. Shakespeare guy was called Titus, and it was directed by Julie taymor was, but it was very true too. Theatrical performance. Not the mean. Stayed a stage performance of Shakespeare and their this is not at all like that, but because it's the same lead actor, it just feels Shakespearean. You know. I like that one I gave you. What was the next one suspicious? It was the next one. Well, how about Romanoff's? The Romanoff's was expensive, modern family. Yeah, I. You got that one. Okay. No, explain and no explanation needed for that one. So Italy? Yeah, suspiciously I gave up front that was nightmare high-octane because the nightmare fuel, but it's also at she could also be nightmare jet fuel, maybe maybe that's a little bit easier to draw the line nightmare jet fuel. Well, yeah, I got that one and then lucky drawn, Christine ski for Jack Ryan. I think you know his incredible actor. He's in the right place at the right time. He's doing all the right moves. He's gonna be a great director. His going to be the caliber of Clint Eastwood director. Except except he's going to be good. Like Clinton, I don't like could do it, but I, I like his attention to detail on behind the camera. I like his face in front of the camera. He's, you know, he's, you know, very similar to Chris Pratt. You know, he's from the half hour sitcom space and some casting director just said, hey, you're going to be a star one day and he took it to heart and he's a star and it's going to be amazing. Yeah, yeah. Cool. I'm glad you have faith. So you know, I mean, I remember, I mean, I I like him as an actor, but you don't think he's like he'll eventually break out of the typecast. I think I mean, come on the rock did. Right. Well, that's true. Yeah, no. And the reason I say that though because like, you know, just a quick like to reiterate everything. I looked at an Jack Ryan from Kamikawa and all this other stuff. Everything was like, well, you know, like Jim. Helper, Jim, you know, like, oh my God, this guy can't break away, you know, but we'll, we'll see. I mean, I think he will eventually because it'll be like it'll be like anyone else. It'll be a whole new generation that will just come upon them and be like this guys like bomb, and you know, no, no pun intended Jack Ryan, but he'll be the hand grenade. But yeah, no, cool. Yeah. So how'd you finish out? My beer is finishing very nicely. It's it's definitely warming up where obviously the flavors are unlocked. I'm glad I have a couple of outages to enjoy the full flavor, but it's the perfect amount because at this point you know, you don't. I don't like the warm beer, but I do like a flavor explosion Ray of the end. So it's really nice to have a finish that is full-bodied and yet you're happy to be done with it. Yeah. I mean, I should go through my beer in like a Bong or something. Vong water beer. That's all my there's three word view on here. Yeah, that's no, actually it's not mine. It's yours, but you don't even. Anyway, what do you say? We get outta here, man. Let's go. All right. Have a great night. Yeah, you too man. I had a lot of fun as always. Right. That's right. All right. We'll talk to you next week. Talk to you next week. All right, thanks. Bye. Next week join Jim and Ted, as they disarm another Hollywood bomb or marketing masterpiece, the holy trinity podcasting subscribe like shave. Special, thanks to Jeremy Jackson for the voice over and rallying for the music.

Amazon King Lear Amazon studios Starbucks Romanov Anthony Hopkins Ted Jimmy Romanoff John Netflix Natasha Julia Roberts trader Joe Jim Piff Unie Albert Chang Rica writer cough Radiohead
8: As Glenda Jackson

As Me with Sinéad

41:52 min | 9 months ago

8: As Glenda Jackson

"This episode of Azmi with nate is brought to you by Chanel. The Legendary Fashion House founded by Gabrielle. Chanel a visionary woman who created on her own terms and continues to inspire women today. Discover her story at inside Chanel Dot Com in Gabrielle. Chanels quest for freedom. She had to master the rules in order to break them. Originality boldness assistance. These were weapons With Soft Jersey outfits practical sportswear supple suits and lightweight shoes. She gave women the freedom of movement the freedom to forget the past cost and embraced the present to learn more about Gabrielle. Chanel visit inside. CHANEL DOT COM Welcome to as me with sinead. I had the privilege of traveling to New York a little while ago. Actually I was in town to attend the met gala which is a weird sentence to be able to say and the person who was sitting across me in the studio was also attending the met gala. It was our collective first time to be. There was with the extraordinary Glenda Jackson who had just played the male lead in her. Asia's in a Broadway production of King. Lear talk about breaking boundaries. We chatted about so many things. Thanks including her winding undulation career. Both in theater on the British parliament. Yes yes you heard that correctly. And what. It's like to be in her body today. Hey has an octogenarian here the envelope that carries that inside me around is increasing disobedient. My fingers won't do do what I tell them to do. All my knees as flexible as I would like to be and the other major thing that I've learned is how little I yeah no or rather the obvious that how much I don't know I'm not come as a big surprise at what's on my mind. This week is the power of one individual when we talk about climate change and seeing all that needs to take place to ensure that our world is sustainable and protected this from the actions that we have done so recklessly for such a long time. I don't know about you but I've been feeling overwhelmed. It just seems that there is so much work to do and so little time and so little political interest in doing so but five learned anything this year. It's that one person can make a huge difference and being inspired by somebody like Greta. Who has rallied children from all over the world to step up and take action? It really makes me constantly ask myself. What can I do? And wouldn't the world be pit of a better place if we all ask ourselves that question at least once every day. Are you ready for this week's episode. Yeah let's go. Welcome to as me with sinead. I I have the great privilege and honor to be sitting opposite the extraordinary Glenda Jackson Glenda. I must tell you that when I spoke to my parents at home Orland my father's British at my mother's Irish when I was telling them about as me and that you would be one of my first guests. They exhibited enthusiasm that I have not seen. I'm from my career in quite a lot of time so I was. There are sending congratulations and incredibly well wishing texts from home and Ireland but Very kind of them. Think before of course but I suppose lots of different people from different generations. No you based on your career and so many different ways be it from politics politics or be it from theater and film and Television and acting but how do you define yourself both personally and professionally. Well it's surprising that you say that I'm sort of well known I mean yes. I'm like the longtime but one of the remarkable benefits really Alina sentences. I can go anywhere. Nobody bothers me. Nobody recognized me. And that's a big treat Partly I think because of the length the town of been around but also a great benefit of England being not London born but living there is that you are allowed to do job go home you know what I mean. People aren't really that interested unless you're pop star or something like that and as markedly not how would I defined myself one of the truly interesting things I've found about getting to this age is the inside. You my my inside me is roundabout fifteen or sixteen which I have to say. It was one of the worst times of my life but I now have the experience of knowing it does get better but the envelope that carries that inside me around is increasing. Disobedient in my fingers won't do what I tell them to do all all my knees aren't as flexible as I would like them to be. And the other major thing that I've learned is how little I knew or rather the obvious. This is that how much I don't know I'm not a big surprise. That piece about your body being disobedient to your own self. I can relate in some ways in terms of comparing my own physicality in that. I'm a little person to everybody else's and there is a societal expectation that my body should do the same things as everybody else but for genetic reasons. It's just not possible. Have you had to adapt yourself in terms of getting to this new place and being frustrated with your own buddy. The biggest thing I've had to adapt do in a way is that my balance has gone. Woke up one night to go to the LOO. I think it's three o'clock the morning. I was totally incapable of walking straight line and of course my family panicked and they rushed me to a hospital the next morning and I they had to all the tests and things they thought destroyed or something and I haven't simply that my balance is gone and I do have a set of exercise is trying to restore my balance uh-huh but why now why this minute you know I mean one minute walk absolutely straight and the next minute you're banging into things but there are positive sides I think of of age and things like that I mean I am quite ruthless. Isn't the right word. I will play the old the person card. If I think it's going to be to my benefit you know what I mean. She's pretty shaming. I have to say the first time. A young person stood up and offered me a seat tube in London. I was outraged. I'm very grateful that they do. I come across this exact same their particular seats as you said on the Tube in London where people say you you know. Stand up if you see somebody in need and this dialogue then happens because people are don't want to offend me by offering me a season case. They think they're ushering me in some way though. So it can be quite vulnerable making of yourself to approach somebody and say I'm really sorry. Would you mind stepping up for me. And it's how do we as a society get better at that. Two people just need to ask. What's the best process? I wish I had managed to that. But I'll give you an example which simply makes the question more complex complex. My daughter-in-law was coming home from work on surface train. In London it was the rush hour was very very crowded there. There was this mother with the baby and no seat and there was a guy sitting on the end seats you know. They like from the pains in London and she said I need eight to feed the baby. May I sit there and he said no work that one out some people are just not so nice as individuals. Indeed and upped upped reflects on us. I mean I don't mean necessarily individual sitting in some kind of community situation which is toppling of public transport autism in Russia Just quite interesting. But I also think it's how we frame societally you know we are now inventing all of these things like people wearing badges and saying you know baby on board or I need a cease and it's kind of further highlighting an amplifying those who have challenges or needs or disabilities. Why don't we put the onus On those who are able bodied to say I'm willing to stand up for you like I am a nice person. Why are we not marketing? The kindness of people. Well I think we do in the sentence I mean certainly. I'm looking at London's public transport as you've already said there are certain sees the designated for special use for people who I have difficulty in standing things of that nature. It's very complicated. Because it's partly this thing of we now are in a world where the communication is via machine all the time I mean we're communicating to other people five machine but something. We both know quite well. It's co- radio in my Country Code Wireless. Although I now realize here in America the wireless means artificial intelligence as well and you put that to one side but we all see it all the time. People who are constantly on their telephones walking down the street looking at their computers things of that nature and the thing that worries me quite quite a bit is are we eventually lose the capacity to actually look each other in the eye and have a conversation. And you've touched on by saying. Why can't we express sal kindness more openly in times of great drama great tragedy? We do and I find that really heartening. We are still human beings actually but This direct communication is simply going to get more and more distant because we only think about machines and anything about ourselves as individuals within that process but dissecting London's transport system is not initially where I thought we will begin the conversation. But I'm so glad that that's where we have started but I wanted to ask you. Can you remember your earliest memory. I'm not absolutely certain whether I remember it or it was worked. My relations at the time told me is the case. When I was eighteen months old I had I think severe bronchitis and I was staying at the time time with my maternal grandmother? And when I stayed with I had caught in her kitchen by the then co fire and an aunt had given me a duck which was clothed in velvety diamonds shapes a pretty duck and I remember that quite distinctly. But whether that's me or it's whether I was told that story seventy times by relations not absolutely certain Did that cover long life within yours. Oh did yes because My first sister I was the eldest two four. Didn't arrive until I was four years old. And so yes I still had the duck. I think I'm the eldest two but I'm the eldest of five I have three sisters is and one brother being. The eldest is tough. I accused my mother much to shock. This accusation took place for an average well and truly grownup. I'm I'm I said to her. You gave me far too early in my life. A far too large sense of responsibility because of course wherever I went my sister had to go with me. I mean no question no choice of my part. If I was going somewhere they had to go with me. As you've quite shocked by that I think do you think it stood you in good Steve. Growing hang up on whether the responsibility stood me in good stead what set neagh stood me in good stead and for which intensely grateful is I come. I'm from what we used to call the working class. I think it's got some other socioeconomic definition now and it was very simple. Actually if you didn't work you didn't eat and so I have a very very strong work ethic and I'm very very grateful for that. Neither of my parents went to university or went to college. I was the first I within my family in which to do. So but my parents understood that education was a catalyst for a societal change. And like that. Perhaps transitioning through socioeconomic. Okay we can make classes and exactly that. My parents used to sit with us every evening and read stories to us because they understood. The importance of literacy are doing our spelling tests with us on a Thursday night before going going into school on a Friday and exactly as you said putting in those principles and building I think a moral compass individuals is so fundamental owes us. As I think it's one of the ways that we we've we started early took him about not being in touch but it is one of the things they keep in touch isn't it it. Because it's a harsher essence learn but it is an absolute truth. Human Nature is immutable. We don't change. I mean hopefully. The human condition nations can be improved and set new. We've seen that around the world but that acceptance regardless of our external envelope we the same is something that is absolutely vital. I think fo- everything in truth and I sometimes wonder whether it's beginning to fray rabbit run the edges. I mean I I was just thinking back to when the Second World War was on and American troops ability in our street on the other side of the street where we live but nonetheless I'm when the V Day celebrations took place which was a street party. These guys absolutely raided their PX on base with these cans and cans and Adams enormous cans of ice cream. I don't think the kids liked it because we'd never tasted but in the adults Demand for our lack but those guys would send care packages to our street. Virtually every house for almost two years I mean I can still remember the fights. My sister and I would have because always in the cap package that would be a tin of fruit cocktail and my mother would meticulously Measure Asia Route Harmony Cherries in each dish. Because they were the big thing a my sister I would count to make sure that we have equal number of cherries. In addition fruit cocktail and America is as you know across the world you see examples of huge compassion and generosity to other human beings. But it's on the as you pointed down. It's on the direct face-to-face individual meeting individual. You seem to be losing all sense of who we are but I think it's about making sure that that compassion is rhythmic. And by that I mean it is often reactionary as you have just said that when an incident happens we are overwhelmed by that moment mm-hmm and respond which such emotion but often there is a time that lapses then which we become reconditioned by system. So how do we change in a sustainable way. We'll speak immune. I was being here politically from dimensioned there by defining that in paps different ways. I mean the obvious ways taxation. I believe Egalitarian Societies. You put forward that argument of regarding taxes being benefit to everybody knew get very scathing ebbing responses but not exclusively that the idea of how in a sense. What we're talking about here is how you create a functioning coming society? Isn't it and we have to be. I think more imaginative in how we define constitutes that society and also in on our ambition we have to be as aspirational as possible. But you mentioned there your time aspiration for for that society not I mean I think we are sprays me but too often it is singular. It's our own aspirations. It seen Cena's what we as individuals achieve. When in fact of course the real aspirations should be of how we come back aspirated national for each other as well as for ourselves and I think the increasing diversity of different types of voices that get to participate in that conversation of Water Society should look Blake? Intern would evolve and something that's a bit more fairer and just for everybody should get off the idea of what it should look like but rather more into what does it feel like I think that way and you you mentioned there but your time in politics one of the things that strikes me most from your career is the fact that you have have such a strong voice and sense of it. Either as an actress and actor either as a politician. But I really wanted to know and to learn from you. Were you very cognizant unconscious growing up of having something to say feeling like there was injustices or there was an important for you to step forward and to be an advocate or was it much more organic in that way. I think it happened. I mean I had no great sense of purpose really I mean I left school with no particularly qualification. I was fortunate enough in those days. If you've got a place as I did at the drama school your local authority paid for it at those days ago. That was interesting going through that process of Being University of credit profession. Virtually never being employed until the point where you were being employed but that sense of there being something that one could do within that kind of structure. which for me was a party? I think came rather late down the road but nonetheless. I'm very glad that it did. I'd always supported voted the Labor Party when I was old enough to vote just a little side track when I was an impede. Have all these school kids who come in you dance answer questions and a recurring question. Always for secondary school pupils was Why can't we vote at sixteen as opposed to eighteen? We can join the army army we can get married. We have to pay taxes. My response always was from my point of view Because you don't vote when you are eighteen it'd be interesting seeing the futures if they will vote in their eighteen but that sense of the possibility of as all working together to create a kind of society in which everyone can function to their best capacity came rather late in the day but I'm grateful that it did inland grateful. The varies afforded the opportunity. Not so much Well yes yes I mean. It is a privileged in the chamber. The House of Commons. And all that kind of thing but the real privilege is representing your constituents in as I was lucky lucky enough to be elected for constituency and it is a true privilege and very Ino as an MP hold advice surgeries chase and people would come in never seen before my live did note them. They didn't know me and they laid their life out on the table in front view. Because you who is the member of parliament with port of last resort and not infrequently. There's lies terrible through no fault of the individuals and the Tuli humbling thing. Whether you've got the result they wanted over the didn't they all invariably set. Thank you anything you've given me but for me they'd given me not that great great gift. Their vote not a gift right that they put the cross next year. Name Your Party and they always say thank you. Why do you think they put that cross beside your name and your party? Well the people like me will always vote. Labour always vote conservative effective always vote Lib. Dem always vote whichever party. They're associated with their those who actually read the Party Manifestos only festivals and their principals. Not You know one hundred percent but nonetheless there is a community of purpose there for others. It's the first time and they just won't vote and I'm not saying you know it's the first alphabetic letter. They recognized that promotes their vote. Not Not that at all. But what was really really interesting to me was over the brexit referendum that vote it was the largest. I just turn out of voters ever recorded in my country be it local elections which always fairly small turn to general elections and that came as biggest shock to me as the actual result. I'm still trying to get my head around. I come from Ireland heads to you very large extraordinary referendums and in recent history where we've had a huge number of people going to the Poles again the power of that voice and I think particularly clete within my instance you know the power of that young people's voice and the power of also individuals are two most recent referendums were about marriage equality and a woman's right to choose absolutely absolutely fantastic fantastic destroy but change came about not just because of political lead but to the agency of individuals who are sitting sitting with family and friends and explaining some of the most difficult or vulnerable or emotional parts of their lives whether that was coming out whether that was an abortion that they taught to have in their youth and exactly as we've been talking about building that human connection and saying this isn't just about politics this isn't just else to vote left or right conservative or liberal. This is about people and I think so often when we talk about politics sometimes we we forget that this is a bet people absolutely absolutely because there is that thing. Even though I've been very critical of artificial intelligence and social media and that kind of thing in the early part of our conversation nonetheless I am convinced that that social media has had an influence on these kinds of fundamental changes now societies. Because it's meant I mean I go back to when I was much much younger than I am now now and I can remember. There seemed suddenly to be a flood of writings of books of communication in update without social media. In that way actually arguing that we've been had a second rate definition as far as the world was concerned and that whole idea of being less than men suddenly took on as far as I was concerned. The realizations that I I wasn't alone in feeling at an up to that point I had thought I was the new personal knives. You know just too big for my own boots is my area of the world would put it and so those kinds of fundamental realities which we are not alone in what we're feeling we're not alone in what we're experiencing and that it can produce profound profound and fundamentally basic good changes now societies is a great treschow Russia nets. Even though I'm very critical. Immune of how social media can be misused then. We can misuse everything but on its positive side. It's just amazing. Well I genuinely wouldn't be sitting across from you today without the Internet. My background is in education. I'm in primary school. An elementary schoolteacher. And in many ways I foresaw saw that to be my career for sixty seventy perhaps as years until I retired whatever age they be and I became really interested in fashion because I I felt left out because when I walk through a store I couldn't reach the rails. I couldn't find clothes. I couldn't see myself in any of the campaigns so started using social media and on the Internet as a vehicle to tell stories and that has transformed my life. And now we're getting to do something like this with as me with yourself is incredibly uh-huh but exactly as you said it's not always the technology it's how we use it but you spoke there about the importance of visibility which really brings me onto the project that you're currently working on an and as an advocate and as somebody who is disabled and a minority in so many ways there is that phrase. If you can see it you can be an. I have lived all of my life. Wanting getting to see stories or art galleries or museums are institutions exhibiting my experience and a reflection of that it has rarely happened and yet there you are on Broadway in a shakespeare production playing a role that many people perhaps couldn't even conceive of some time ago. Well I have a great friend. Wonderful Spanish actress Nuria s bad and she did King Lear in Barcelona and I went over to see and she was just just marvelous. Some music production and she said to me. Why don't you do it unless you don't be ridiculous? I stopped being by them. I said they would never let me play earlier. In England. Come on anyway I come home and The old vic wanted to play beautiful theater played there before and over time we decided layer there. I was doing it and when I was still impede. Part of one's job was to visit. Is it old. People's Homes Day Centers Jill things of that nature and what I found fascinating was as we grow older as. We're all oh getting to live for much much longer. Those absolute boundaries which defined gender begin to crack. They begin to get a bit fogy but misty and I find that very useful playing Leah and nobody. Nobody ever mentioned it to me from an audience perspective. Nobody's ever accept. A woman said to me one night waiting outside the autographs. It's the first year I've seen. Where was aware of his maternal side? Muqtada what's interesting why putting its you know what I mean. I mean there's aspect there but that is something that I I saw in. You know non Shakespearean characters in them day centers and places like that that yes we do begin to to give up on the gender differentiation of who we are what defines Jamba and so many people have been trying to kind of change and provoked that thought but you spoke there very briefly about how the conversation came about in the old vic and then the role just happened. I would love to learn more. Was it an negotiation. What was your suggestion? Initially the ELVIC were concerned that they were physically. They are physically too close to the globe theatre which is exclusively Shakespeare and they they are in the sense non profit organization after think about a province in that way but eventually they said yes. Okay we'll do it and a director who had done the play Nice three times before said yes she would do it and there. We were one of the shocking things for me. Actually was that in the main. It was a young company but but they don't work. These kids adore worked. They had never worked on a theatrical stage. All their work had been for cameras. Television of film microphones phones. I couldn't believe couldn't believe that they'd never been on a theatrical stage. You feel like you were going back to your childhood and being the eldest sibling again. No I really didn't because there is something very remarkable and I think we're very fortunate those who have the privilege wjr experiencing it in the theater. You have to communicate telling level which is much deeper than the normal kind of former getting though people slowly that kind of thing and you may not see some of the. I've had this experience many many times for decades and you bump into them in the street and it is as though you've both just walked out of the same coffee bar having had coffee. Do you know what I mean this that kind of interaction always and walk into a theater which I had worked. It didn't several times before it was as though I'd never been away a friend of mine when I was worrying about doing it said to me. Oh come on. I sat in. What if I've forgotten how to do it? She said W dickey. She says he's like riding a bicycle. You never forget how to do it so they were very worried I was. I was very worried. Read not so much that forget how do because you know you do it for the first time every performance. But I didn't think I would have the physical strength all the vocal strength. Thanks to actually do it so I started exercising would walk down the hill from my house to the local swimming pool and swim. Have you had to upkeep kind of routine as you've I haven't kept up that routine but I do have a very kind of my working day starts to clog. The cutting doesn't go up until seven but from two o'clock on there's nothing other than that and within the performance in the play a what's been the most challenging moment well the most challenging moment is walking onto the stage because as as I said every performance for me is the first time I've done it I give you a precise example of but I mean I worked. I did lovely play called Stevie which was about the poet Stevie Smith and marvelous marvelous actress. Komen Washburn played my aunt and we would sit on the stage waiting zinc. The curtain goes up every performance and she had been the product of a theatrical family. I think she'd been working in theatre acting since you about seven or eight. She was highly regarded marvelous actress. And she's out there on the Sofa in her seventies every performance. And she'd say please God let me die and the curtain went up and she was fine she didn't she survived. Die Just kicked the ball out of bug an being involved in politics and stepping forward and being a voice. Not just for yourself but for your constituents there is so many opportunities in which you can be criticized criticized quite publicly and quite vocally has that and being a politician and that experience of of criticism helped acting or are they different entities rather different entities. The one benefit that I had was years ago. I remember reading a report here. In New York doc that had studied what we as human beings fear most and after death public speaking is the thing we fear most and and for me. That was no problem I could you know. Stand up. Speak to room full of strangers and things like that. Didn't bother me at all and tempted to ask you what you do. Fear flying petrifies getting a cold guessing some minor ailment that will reduce the energy. I've got all kinds of practical things. All the physicality galaxy visas physicality and across your career. I mean you're a parent an advocate. You have won. Oscars Emmy's and Tony's Tony's and you know you've you don't win them actually. I mean I really. They're very nice to receive as gifts and that's what they are. But I mean you're not competing without the people in that sense when you're acting I mean when you doing play for instance. Everyone is responsible for the whole play largest more clout at every produce on publicity ability and also in film so. I didn't regard that I've won them. It's not like a running race in the Olympics. They're very nice. They don't make any better but eighteen the very nice to get well. How did you feel when you got them? Pretty much that talks about the coal with regard to the Oscars. It's something like three o'clock in the morning. So Oh I wasn't in my best receptive mood but no I mean they're nice but they go so they don't hold that overwhelming value for you. Acting only only exists when you do it and you do it for an audience. And it's that I mean they're strangest sitting in the dark. We strange his come on in the light at energy goes the light to the darkness. Fortunate Cup back to the light reinforced and if it really really works I've experienced experienced this you do create a circle of energy which may have caused these an ideal model of an ideal society. But that's what it's about. What is that circle of energy tangible? Absolutely what does it feel. It feels as though it's partly the energy obviously the plate self but of an audience's attention concentration. You are believable to them. The play place. You in extraordinary can't way is is a truly unique experience and I think it's unique for the audience as well. It's not just unique for the actors and has there been a moment that the end of a play okay at the end of a project when that circle of energy has been at. Its most heightened. Can you remember not really because if I take something from the play home am I haven't done my job properly. I mean everything should have been done on that state. Joel Not Empty Space. So no I mean one of the things I found quite interesting at the is is people. Say to me quite often learn those words. I do remember the Mind No. I'm just blessed in that way that I come and do but once it's a project deserve a bit about plays most obvious because it's one you do most often other than film and television. I can't remember word the day after really. I can't remember word until gum thought might be my brain just decay in but they go. You spoke earlier the fact that as you age you have this understanding that you're going back to kind of your fifteen and sixteen year old self in many ways where you feel about internally perhaps perhaps more but what would you say to fifteen or sixteen year old Glenda if you had the opportunity or is there anything you would advise them on or DR encourage them to do I was pretty good at school until I hit my teams now. Think it's when all those you you know. Whatever they called stop coursing through your veins? And I didn't spend as much time lending as I could have done for for example one of the big jokes in my form when I was about fourteen or fifteen and tended always to me that was chosen to participate. Here there were covered in the classroom senior as removable shelves and so the shelves would be removed. And I would be locked in the cupboard which the rest asked the class all knew this was a punishment for teachers. We didn't particularly like there. I was incarcerated in the cupboard and it was my job. TAP mysteriously certain moments during the clothes. I mean really. How pathetic can you get in some ways? I wish because as I said now I yeah my age I realized how little I know that I perhaps it spent more time actually learning at school than I did. What would you like to know thank? You don't pretty much everything I really would. I mean there's so many I don't for example understand visual intelligence. My landline went out and my family insisted that I get your cell phone because the people who repair your landlines very slow in doing the job so I got the cell cell phone and I pretty much knew how to make a call on it. I couldn't get incoming calls. I couldn't I didn't which PUTNEY press so I said to my grandson. Who at the the time is seven years old? He's not twelve I said to him. Would you be good enough. I said just to show me because I didn't know how to get an incoming call. He said to me I've shown you how to do do this three times. I am not doing it again. That puts you in your place. We spoke about earlier about that feeling of sometimes sometimes being alone and how the Internet and technology can unite us in a way. And I'm conscious that this podcast is going into people's ears and probably quite an isolated needed fashion. We have an audience of one in front of us and many people I think in a me too will be listening to you and say you know you had such bravery and confidence in using your own voice and stepping forward for issues or for characters or for other people and for yourself. Is there any advice or anything that you would say to people who perhaps listening to this and thinking. I don't know how I don't know if I can. I don't know if I should. They're very very difficult questions that if they are asking being themselves that I don't wear one would begin to do this. But experience is out there as others have experienced it in order. I mean and so you can tap into that but I didn't feel that anything I've done is particularly brave or outside the Norman ascendance partly because malicious my theory. Partly because I was raised by women I mean I was born in nineteen thirty six aches. You know older men in my family way war for those six years. I was raised by my mom and my aunts. My Grandma's and they also part from raising children. The country didn't they and as happened in the first world war where they had been an exactly similar situation except except that the end of that they will million men who didn't come home those women who run the country. Run the family's done everything with Patti Dilma head toll. Thank you very much. Now Go away go back. Oh did the cooking the cleaning and I think partly by what it happened out first World War I mean we got the vote eventually. Didn't we in the United Kingdom. I'm partly of the reaction of the Second World War they lose generations weren't prepared to just go away and get on with it and I think that's sort of fed into me and that was something very much that I value. Yeah I mean life had dealt all women in my family fairly a rupee cards but they are had a sense of humor. They you strongly believed in not crying over spilt milk That you know life was there to be live together and do it and don't Moan and those were very valuable and beneficial lessons so too nasty and competence confidence. I mean just just do wit thing happen and speaking of just doing it. We're sitting here. We are reimagining boldly this society that we want to build and live live in. What's the one thing you wanna see? I would just like to see the knowledge of. How is this paradoxical? Oh I know this. We are uniquely individual every single one of Assam face but we have so much share. If only we could and we should Let's hope we will Glenda Jackson. It has been the most extraordinary privilege to sit across from you this afternoon to learn from you and laugh with you and I want to hopefully instill inspiration some ideas to those who are listening. Thank you so much for being on asthma today on a U.. It's been a real pleasure to meet you. It's okay if I'm honest. That was one of the very first episode that I ever recorded episode nervous. Literally you could see my hands shaking on the table. But I hope that didn't come through to you Glenda for sharing yourself with us. This week's someone you should know is also an actress but like me. She's a little person her name is Ron Mills. And she is extraordinary in so many ways but you might be familiar with her work because she's currently starring in Harlem on Hulu. I've admired Franz work for such a long time and she's really challenging challenging the parts that people can play when they're born into specific types of bodies. If you're not already following go do so immediately on instagram. She's fron on mills that's F. or A. N. N. N. Mills M. I. L. S. as me with Sinead is a lemonade media original and his executive produced by Jessica Cordova Kramer assistant produced by Claire. Jones an edited by Ivan Cure. F- music by Jerome Rankin. Our sales sales and distribution partners Westwood one. If you've liked what you've heard don't be shy. Tell your friends or listening. Subscribe on Apple Stitcher spotify or wherever you like to listen and and rate and review as well to continue the conversation. Find me on instagram twitter at the park and find Lemon Adam media on instagram twitter and facebook. Look lemonade media.

London Glenda Jackson Glenda Glenda Jackson sinead Chanel Gabrielle New York King Lear Ireland Russia America England Orland Asia Azmi
Amanpour: Eric Schmidt, Alan Eagle, Glenda Jackson & Phillip Youmans

Amanpour

58:40 min | 1 year ago

Amanpour: Eric Schmidt, Alan Eagle, Glenda Jackson & Phillip Youmans

"Next year. Someone is going to challenge. Donald Trump for the White House, the primary right home is a new podcast that helps you figure out who that candidate or candidates might be the primary ride home is a daily podcast dropping every day at five pm with the latest news from the campaign trail who's up who's down which issues are gaining traction. What is the best path to victory? The primary ride home is only fifteen to twenty minutes long. So it's the perfect way to catch up on. What you missed on your way home. Search your podcast app now for primary ride home. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. Xeni offers thousands of forcible eyewear styles starting at just six ninety five. No ridiculous markups. No hassles. Just quality affordable. I wear delivered right to you visits. Any today at Xeni dot com slash CNN. Hey, podcast listeners Christiane here. And thanks so much for tuning him. I really hope you enjoy the show get in touch on Twitter and Instagram and tell me what you think. Because tonight, we talk to Eric Schmidt about possibly breaking up the big tech. Giant's we talk to the great Glenda Jackson about her gender bending role as King Lear, and we talked to Philip humans who is making history at the Tribeca film festival. Welcome to the program, everyone, I'm Christiane Amanpour in London. So has big tech finally just gotten too big and too powerful a Silicon Valley dives ever deeper and deeper into our lives. There are rising calls for oversight. When it comes to regulation, though, Europe is leading the United States and the summit in Paris this week with tech and world leaders is trying to get to grips with the idea of all powerful, monopolies invasion of privacy and democracy. The spread of extremism and violence. The new Zealand Prime Minister just into other is coming to co-chair the meeting and to rally support for the Christ Church. Call that's a pledge name for the massacres there when a white nationalist mowed down fifty Muslim worshippers to mosques and live streamed it on Facebook and tomorrow, I'll sit down with the prime minister in Paris to hear about her hopes to eliminate extremism online Auden's host and coach chair would of course, be the free. President Emmanuel Macron, and he has just met with Mark Zuckerberg as the Facebook founder continues his worldwide efforts at damage control. While rejecting one of his own co-founders calls for Facebook to finally be broken up. Now unsurprisingly tag leaders claim. They are best place to self regulate. And they reject government intervention. I asked the former CEO and chairman of Google Eric Schmidt and Allen eagle who's a company director what it would take to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to online content. They join me to discuss their new book trillion dollar coach about Bill Campbell the football coach who became a guru in Silicon Valley because of his teachings on ethical leadership. Eric schmidt. Allen eagle. Welcome to the program. We're talking in a really heightened state of of of attention on the social giants. The big tech giants. You know, the president macro of France is talking to Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook also to the prime minister of New Zealand in the wake of this aura in Christ Church, which was twin extent aided and abetted and supported by violent and extremist content online. So what do you think about the state of your your your big companies right now is there is it time to make some dramatic changes and solutions first since you were CEO. While I was worried about regulation, which is around the current problem and not fixing the real problem. I think it's much better when the tech giant's as you call them work on this solving them themselves. Each company is different. In Google's case, we worked really really hard to find into tact evil things. Inviolate our policies and take them down super quickly. There's Furthermore promise that AI will allow this to be detected automatically. What about you? I mean, you are giants. I mean, you've dominated the landscape ever since sort of this started. What do you think because everybody says, yes, you know, the companies should regulate themselves? We don't want government, etc. But I mean, the US is playing catch up to Europe where there is regulation and to a growing clamour amongst people for some kind of more responsible attitude to what's out there. I can just tell you what's going on day to day inside the company as director on the sales team, people are working very hard every day to do the right thing as Eric was talking about, you know, in an open web. It's going to be a constant battle of people putting up bad things. And we try to find them and bring them down as quickly as possible. But the company really is trying very hard working very hard on these every day. So I'm gonna play a sound bite from Senator camera highest one of the presidential candidates, and she along with Senator Elizabeth Warren, a very clear about what they say. They want to do. And that is sort of a break-up of the giant companies. This is what she said recently we have to recognize it for what it is. It is essentially a utility that has gone unregulated. And as far as I'm concerned. That's gotta stop. I mean, she's talking sense, right? It's gone on regulated. And to a great degree. I mean, Google Facebook all the others have not done enough according to her, and according to many people to regulate themselves. She's also running for president, correct? As is her competitor, Elizabeth Warren, there's no basis in law to break up these companies in the US and fundamentally the break-up would increase costs. It's far far better for the companies to try to figure out a solve his problem. The people inside these companies don't want this stuff to happen either. The fact of the matter is that a very small percentage of humans do really bad things we need to get better at detecting these things and stopping it. What would you then say when you say there's no basis in law or? Or we the company should do. It us elves and not have what then is a solution. Well, as I said, the computer industry is a whole and each the company's YouTube does a fantastic job of this detect bad stuff automats using various mathematical techniques in history and so forth. And the things that are put up are taken down in a very few number of seconds. That's probably the state of the art right now. And it's getting better and better. I don't know how in a world where humans can upload over and over again things which are evil how you can prevent that. Without having a censorship regime. Do you really wanna put in government censors on what people say, I don't think? So you describe it as censorship. This is what Chris Hughes, I realize he's not a Google employee of founder, but he was one of the founders of Facebook, and he's been getting a huge amount of attention on because he has said that it's time for Mark zuckerberg's power to be reduced by breaking up Facebook. And particularly he's talked about re dressing the acquisition. That Facebook made of what's happened Instagram. This is what you just said recently, we shouldn't need to just trust the private sector to do the right thing. I mean, we don't do that. With airlines. We don't do that with pharmaceutical companies. We don't do that with the financial industry. We don't do that with healthcare. We say we want competition we understand that dynamic markets or a good thing. But we want to also ensure that there there's a baseline level of protection in the fact that we haven't gotten there with digital companies. I think is just a testament to how quickly not just Facebook, but Google Amazon Apple all of them have have grown the big four giants. And again, you said there's no basis in law. But there is in in this precedent in the United States for breaking up some of these big companies not on t trust. Yes. Not not under the current set of laws in the US. If you follow Chris's arguments, he's fundamentally arguing for very slow rates of innovation. He benefited from the fact that Facebook's entry into an open web allowed the creation of an. Enormous achievement which was Facebook at the time he benefitted personally from that. Do you really want to slow that down by a factor of ten look at the rate of innovation in healthcare aviation in the industries that he named I would prefer to have the innovation run forward. And then when when things happen, let's let's get together and figure way to solve them. Let's figure out how to not prematurely regulate these industries. I keep saying that. And I realize you're saying that from your innovator business perspective, I understand that. It's also a massively profit making business as no doubt about it. And Chris used to be fair does not attack Mark Zuckerberg? Personally, he says he even thinks that Mark Zuckerberg thinks that he's got too much power. And that's just too much power in any democracy. You book the trillion dollar coach? I mean, you you lionize this wonderful man Bill Campbell who has been so front and center of these Silicon Valley of. Of the innovation and all and also the ethic in the book really does focus on his ethic in business. How does that fit in to where we are? Now. I mean, even if you don't like the idea of regulation because of Americans are unregulated -able. And we don't like censorship and entrepreneurship is you know, has to happen come what may? But surely there is today a common good. The does need the kind of ethics that your book focuses on to be involved. We'll Bill was a football coach American football before he became went into business and for him. It was all about the team and the good of the team. And so when he would be looking we can we can assume what he would say today if he were dealing with some of these issues, but what he would look at is. What is the team who are the right people working on it? And are they the right people? Are they coach for people who learn as they go, and are they focused on integrity and doing the right thing. So it isn't so much. You wouldn't talk to us about what should. You do. But he would look at. What is the right team is the right team looking at it. And do they have the right ethics along with all of the other traits that he would I just wanted to you as people and as tech innovators vested in this company. Particularly think when you see a Christ Church where it was livestream to Nonni four thousand people saw it live. But then it was replicated, so many all a Putin, etc. Interfering in our laws or the violence against women and other stuff that we see it's it's always a shock to discover that there's evil in the world, but this evil was there before Google face. But it was never. So exponentially distributed was certainly present. And that evil now uses the latest tools that doesn't mean that the tools themselves are evil it needs that the toolmakers have to figure out ways to make sure this is not misused in the cases that you're citing. It's probably possible to detect this kind of behavior. Mickley that is very quickly. So when something bad comes up, basically, not only stop it, but prevent it from being replicated YouTube does this quite well YouTube had this problem over over a decade. And what would happen is people who were insane or evil, or what have you would keep uploading bad stuff, especially if it was pornographic, and we developed develop ways to not only detect it, but also prevent it. The solution to this is to make sure that the common space follows the guidelines of these shows, none of the companies that your names have guidelines which allow the kind of evil that you're describing it's their job our job to police that correct? I mean, obviously, none of you would allow that kind of stuff. I mean, it's so awful. But just as you said the internet had to stop policing pornography and terrorism as well. I mean when there's an ISIS thing people try to take it down. You will try to take it down as quickly as possible. So we're clear all of this content is not okay with any of these companies. There's no company saying, hey, we want more of this. They all want. Less of it. Give us the time to build the systems that detect it, but don't otherwise harm innovation and free speech. I I guess it just always comes back to particularly in the world that we're living in right now, I what it's not just anti-trust is the wholesale violation of privacy, and in some state, in some cases, a massive technological surveillance state that in some countries is being enabled by all of this. But but it just does go on. I mean, it it does and it is hard for people now to to. To accept that. It's a big moneymaker fuel at that cost. Given the fact that is also massively helpful in. So many parts of of the of endeavour. Would you prefer that these services all charged their actual rates and rather than be free? Would you prefer that they have registered users as you have in China where all of a sudden the government knows exactly what they're uses. There are real trade-offs here. And while we focus on these exceptions, which are bad exceptions. Let's not remem-. Let's not forget the good, right? These are platforms, which are broadly available. There are a multi-billion of people using them. They brought enormous benefits of knowledge if you look at the developing world in terms of access to information access to health care the empowerment of new competitors. The empowerment of new entrance over and over and over again, the number of companies that have been able by these technologies is extraordinarily. I mean, this absolutely no doubt about that. However, there is there is absolutely. Good. And you say would you prefer this all that? Well, I belong to a profession that is regulated. And I'm a member of the press the first amendment right behind me constitutionally, but nonetheless, there are things that we cannot say or do in our profession. So let's get back to you the trillion dollar coach because he's really an interesting, man. And when he talks about leadership, which I actually think is fascinating particularly in this world. What makes a great leader? What is it about? Just winning is it about subjugation and dominance in Hugh you quote him here. You're right about him. He says you need to according to a nine hundred ninety four study go beyond the traditional notion of managing that focuses on controlling supervising evaluating and rewarding slash punishing to create a climate of communication respect feedback. Entrust all through coaching. Tell me how that plays out then in in your experience. How what did he teach you all and how does that come into play in these positions of breathe? Huge leadership and power that you have. So as you as you talked about it these are incredibly stressful and important decisions. And the question is not what the decision should be Bill would teach who is making the decision, and how do you get the right people? And he would often say the problem is you have the people who think they know the answer. Let's go. Find the smartest people get them and work on it really quickly over and over again, Google, we found small groups of people who are incredibly expert who had an idea to solve the problems that you named or others. And we relied on them. The right thing happened what the coach told us was it's a coaching mechanism, and it's a team sport. Right. Everyone's focused on the leader by name. Everyone knows the famous leaders of these companies in the famous founders. But you forget that there are hundreds and hundreds of people who are working with them to collectively make this happen that this book is about coaching the whole team. I would argue by the way that this is a new Silicon Valley export. The notion of business coaching of the whole team. And the reason is think about it in any sport. Are there any teams that succeed without coaches? Of course, not. So again, I I find the idea of the pyramid, which we all live in a pyramid. We hear now warning media we have a boss and it filters down. How'd who get team members from from the lowest up to the highest to feel that they can safely and securely as long as they're competent and good and do their job. Well, and all the rest of it. Either backup what you're doing all complain or even whistle blow to you. I'm not saying public, but come and talk to you about things that make them uneasy because you know, there's some issues here with Google the the twenty thousand people walk out over the allegations of sexual harassment fifty cities in November. I think that was Google culture working at its best because the answer to your question is to listen to people and you said the word safely. That's what you want create a safe place for people to speak up. Eric talked about decision making when you're making a decision. You may know what the decision already as you may know, what the right thing to do is to make sure everybody gets heard people will fall in line with the decision much better. Even if it doesn't go their way if they've actually listened to and you talked about censorship moment ago. Would you prefer to have censorship? Well, in many places, there is censorship like in China, and obviously Google has come across and come to sort of its accommodation with China. You said last year at a private event, Eric that you predicted that we would see quote, a bifurcation into a Chinese lead internet and a non Chinese Internet led by America, and you warned of the danger of leadership in that way from Chinese government that values censorship. But at the same time, we've reported this a lot Google was on the heat from its own employees. For project Dragonfly, which is kind of a censored version of a search engine that would keep information away from the Chinese authorities. Where do you come down on that? Well, let's talk about China and the internet for a sec the Chinese Internet companies are faster growing and higher valuation than what you call big tech ear in the west. They are operating and growing in a separate ecosystem, they have some links outside of China. But China itself is so large as a business, and they are so successful that they are primarily domestically focused. If you talk to the founders of those companies, their primary concern is the government because the government could for example, arbitrarily decide to not allow them to do a product or so forth. And so on all of them are subject to the very aggressive laws with the spectre surveillance loss of privacy and so forth. My concern is that that model not become the internet. And my concern is that the internet knots. Split in that way. I think it's very important that western values of openness and communications and so forth, which we took for granted are globally available. So I mean, taking what you've just said a you pleased, then that the complaints by Google employees about this. Which verbalised have apparently put off ration- Dragonfly either on hold or who've digital together. So again, not involved with those decisions. So I don't know this Pacific of the decision what I can tell you is that our culture encourages this kind of expression of interest. The company has to make the decision. So he's that employees felt that it was okay to speak up whether or not they influenced something or not they felt empowered. They didn't they felt something that wasn't going. Why going right at the company, or at least in their opinion. It wasn't. And they felt they could speak up about the currency yo summed up each says, it was merely an internal project. He's denied any plans to launch one in China and says the project has since been dropped Bill Campbell would agree with that. A you please it is being dropped. Whatever was going on again, I'm pleased that people felt empowered to talk about speak up about it. And that they were listened to regardless of the what is the biggest takeaway in terms of management between leaders and employees. That you hope we take from this book. The basic principle is bring humanity back into the workplace. Respect listening caring about people helping them achieve their objectives. This is what Bill was all about. And that could be an exponential game changer because still to this day. The little people are still nervous about their jobs. Should they feel that they're part of the project and feel feel empowered and then getting selves slapped around in the boat is the is called Chilean collar coach because Bill was both the Steve Jobs is coach as well. As as my coach him, the some of that is more than a trillion dollars shareholder value. He's by far the most successful coach in the world and Google, and I suspect suspected apple you would never be able to refer to our employees as little people. Right. Are I'm talking about on the totem pole. I'm our model is huge empowerment to our individual employees, which I'm very proud of. What did you get from him from? Bill. I know he was your coach. And also was the Steve Jobs a little bit sort of nervous about Bill coaching all the competitors as well was interesting about Bill was he managed to actually coach not just apple and Google, but many other companies in the valley, and he managed to do this because he was not involved in the park decisions. He let the product decisions which often were very complicated indifferent se separate he coached them people as individuals and somehow in the middle of all of the conflict between apple and Google. He managed to do it. And did it fairly to the satisfaction of side. They built incredible trust again by listening by being loyal by being very careful with keeping secrets and he just built tremendous trust. So he could work with many different players. Excellent. Eric Schmidt out an eagle. Thank you very much. Thank you is the trillion dollar coach. Thanks. Tired of spending hundreds of dollars for prescription glasses. 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The legendary true crime show is now a podcast. Join investigators as they take on the toughest cases with cutting edge scientific tools. Subscribe now with apple podcasts with new episodes every Monday and Thursday, you'll never miss out on getting your renchik fixed. Now, we're going to take a cue from Shakespeare and his eternally timely kingly at it too is all about power a team of rivals and a big break-up of his kingdom. No less these descent into madness makes him one of the most challenging characters to grapple with on stage. The latest actor taking up the gauntlet is blended Jackson at eighty three years old. She's showing no signs of slowing down as she throws herself into eight shows a week on Broadway fierce funny, and Frank it is a delight to welcome back to this program between of course shows there, you are in New York. Welcome back. Glenda jackson. Thank you very much. Indeed, it is exhausting. Right. I mean, it's very physical and all encompassing performance. Well, it, isn't it isn't. I mean sitting and I'm used to eight shows week. I mean that was the. Would tow was practicing England rely big cannon still is, but there is an enormous energy in the play itself. And if you can patch in touch into that energy, and we do as a company than really I mean, I sometimes feel more energized. When it's when we've done if and when I started I wonder whether whether because you've also said that you think you know, Shakespeare is perhaps one of the most if not the most contemporary of playwrights and given all years. Yeah. We've been talking about leadership and power and corruption and breakup an ethics where does he fit in fee while you call him still so contemporary well because he touch it. He essentially only ever writes about us about human beings and human nature is immutable. Yes, we can. And we do still try to improve the human condition. But we as human beings don't change that much, and there are tropes in the play that the absolutely reflected in the world, as we know it today, and I was particularly interested hearing the previous piece about power and leadership because Leah says in the play that he was flattered like a dog as the king people said to him. I am no to everything he said and the line is. I are no to is. No, good divinity. And so that is something that is still prevalent now now continuing that theme this particular production of King Lear takes place, essentially in a single kind of gilded room, and then turns into a bit of a ruined in the second part. But nonetheless, as you could imagine given the times, we're living in some of the theater critics have said, well that room that sort of that. Room must be Trumpian. It must be the the Trump Tower conference room. I mean, do you ever think about that? Is there any any kind of proves to that at all? I think that may have been something there in the background. But certainly Lear is not that kind of person. I mean point about Lear is that he's a mom who no one has ever said no to in these entire life. He was bone to that position of power. He's obviously conducted. Well, he says he's hounding it over to young strength than his because he wants to have a peaceful retirement. Ideally with his youngest most favorite daughter in probably the most favorite place in this kingdom. And it doesn't happen like that. And so what he has known all his life begins in the most terrible way to fracture to fall apart to finish. But his power is never something that. He's had question or has been questioned until this critical moment. So we're going to be playing now a little clip because it it has been filmed and we've been talking about ethics, and and he's now losing his faculties. But he's he's got one sort of clear moment, and here, it is his you. By on this page in stone. How would your head urine inside coming windows and Ryan biscuit family from seasons? Bomb Luzia sounded to free. What the heck she's field. I mean that loss line essentially says it all expose yourself to feel what wretches feel on the talk to me a bit a little bit about that. It resonates particularly with me because when I was first elected a member of parliament. I think that truly every shop doorway in London possibly in every metropolitan area in the United Kingdom with the bedroom. Living room and bathroom of some homeless person that had been made you major changes made in our social hi z housing structures by then prime minister, Margaret Thatcher who would allowed tenants to buy their properties usually at way below market prices. And there was no Rekkem Pence in replacing those that social housing foundation with noon social housing, and although the number of people who are homeless in my country went down. We are now seeing those numbers going up and setting the here in New York, we see people on the streets every night, and it is that. If for him for certainly for Lia, he makes that connection. And I'm pretty set me this first time these live underneath the all the time before then. Well, if no if these people don't have anywhere to live, it's because they're to either to work, you would find that's opinion being replicated even now. Suddenly strikes home to him because he suddenly in the strange kind of way realize is that he has. No hope he has nowhere to live. And it's that acknowledgement that when he had the power to do something essentially you prevent that situation. He he dumped out of it. He wasn't aware of is. Actually, I think that there's a moment of genuine shame for him. It's really interesting because it's sort of bills on that fem-. Your kingly is good friend. The Earl of Gloucester who is also brought down by disloyal child. He also finds himself a one point of being confronted by a poor mentally ill man in the streets. And he gives him some money in the account. He says so distribution should undo excess and each man have enough. I mean, you know, contemporary that would be old redistribution of wealth. Absolutely would. Yeah. And look how that is becoming hardware. It would see. But but it is incredible. That those themes I mean, as you say, they are so contemporary, and so a tunnel milk. We we make a big deal. I don't know. Why about saying that you're eighty three years old, and you're still doing this? However, I think one of the reasons is the admiration that you still have so much gusto, and so much, you know, a spa on stage and get such great reviews and put in such audiences. But also, I wonder whether Lear has to be played in your later years in a late year. And I just want you to think about that. What I play something I hate to name drop, but I did interview Serie and McCallum and he played it onstage in London. And he talked about this connection between age and Lear. Well, there was a great actor my youth. Ralph Richardson, film style and stage star who said in his typical ri- which he y. You'll get out to badger. So beautiful. Tweeting the Suns in the sky. Yo wife's being mice to your nothing could go wrong. And then you find you've got your foot caught in a Lear. I mean, I it's kinda sweet the way he says it, but just this sort of inevitability on if you have the talent to play this in your in your in your later years. Did you feel coaching Lear? No. Because then I don't Lear doesn't regard himself as being old. I mean he owned it and on his age rights at the end of the play and the profit sell. Factually is demands energy. I mean, it's not an old mom's pilot in what was the kind of. Oh, I didn't know. I mean, we we're so hypocritic lot. We as people about age. I mean, I remember when you know state pension age in my country was sixty five and you expected suddenly the day off de was six and five to lost all the POWs understanding, not payable to come in just ridiculous. You know? I mean my birthday was last week. I think I'm exactly the same the day off to my birthday didn't I was before. But this thing about age is something I mean, you ally it to to work and do energy. I one of the things I treasure my. In my life. Is that by the accident my birth? I was born in what we used to call the way. King tosses. We now call blue collar. I it was very simple for that close. If you didn't work it didn't eat. And so I have a very very strong work ethic. Am I bless? I bless my family for giving me that inheritance because it's been of immense value to me, and this great, actually, I I just wanted to also. You know, there is so much ageism in society, and and sexism in society, and here, you are a woman of a certain age, and by the way, happy birthday, not just playing this part. But also playing it as a woman, and I think he was one of the first women, I think Sarah bajada played hamlet in obviously in the last century. But nonetheless, what do you what do you make of that? Did you ever get any misogynist age? Clash none whatever I mean. It is very very rare. I can't think anyone who's actually seeing the play with me, and it has raised that day. She would tour. I mean, it may be we did have a gender bend baffling England, and that has been triumphantly one by the group you've actresses who created the company and kicked off that by told by playing all the Shakespearean histories or women cost. I think that battle in the sense has been one one of the touching things that was said to me, no one is real. Really cause I don't play it. And as a woman in that sentence. I mean, one of the benefits of my being a member of parliament was the die visited people's homes day centers places that help people with disabilities. And things of that nature. We all as a race of breed, whatever you like to call us living longer and long one of the fascinating things that I saw was that as we do get those absolute boundaries that define our gender begin to crack, they begin to fray. I mean, we all told I'll be not be boys or girls babies when they're bowl. They don't know what their gender is. And as we get older, they begin to be filled trated by something else. And that's very useful. But one of the audience members who waited outside the theater, what night said to me I've seen this play many many times. And it's the first time I've seen an aspect of Lear that could have a maternal quality. I. Play that maternal quality. But it is undoubtedly in there that is that is really Mr. Shakespeare, isn't it it is God just fascinate. Yeah. That really is. And we had the opportunity to talk to Kate packing them who was head of the Donmar warehouse who did that trilogy. Of course, as you said that she sees a and two others all women 'cause and it was amazing. But she did say because she was the first that was quite a lot of backlash here in Britain. And we've also explored a lot on this show about work, and and sort of useful contribution to society, even beyond the retire. Retiring. A so I think you have three right? These issues are happening. But I want to play another clip from something you did much much earlier, essentially, it's it's I mean, there's gonna long long title, but it's the the movie Murad Saad, and we're gonna take a clip of your performance. Grabby through the street, they kinda steak what what states what believe what are they gonna sing for what they wreck we've loved do the children screaming off others heaps. They fight over those heaps with eyes and mouth. What? You know, you do you do mad very well. Well, I'll say thank you, even though I have my doubts, but thank you. I mean, it is interesting that I mean there's that much earlier in your career. There's this. We showed two clips where you really, you know, showing. The frailties the descent into madness mental illness. I mean, how how do you? Yeah. Go ahead. One hundred gonna say is both those examples where in times, I mean, certainly the Myer Assad was set in this Pacific time Shakespeare wrote his play the specific time where the use of medicine was not there as a calming influence on people who were having serious mental health problems. And I think out his reflection. So it's I mean, I think one of the areas which is very different today is that increase of medicinal calming. I mean, I use that would have been the wrong word. But you never let me I do. I do know what you mean in very briefly. We've only got about a minute left. You said that in a in a recent radio interview, you said you think the inside me is about fifteen years old. Yeah. That's true. I do. It's the envelope which carries are inside hours petits, increasing. They disobedient fingers. Don't do what you tell them do need. Bend. When you want them to do. And the other amazing thing about reaching the age that I have is I I'm suddenly blindingly aware of how little I know. And how much is that? I would like to know. So I hope I've a bit more time, and can perhaps close up those areas of totally and what would be your next role. What happens after Leah fee? You. Oh, look, I mean, I remember all those years when there was no work available and one must just desperate forward. So anything that comes through the front. Dole is something that he's welcome. I've always felt when the job finishes that I've never going to be employed, again, let's hope that I can be wrong. That's one of the things that I hope I learned. I'm sure you are wrong. Glenda jackson. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. And now we turn to a new kid on the block eighteen age filmmaker just starting out but already making waves. He's nine. One thousand nine year old Philip humans is first feature burning canes snapped up three awards at this year's Tribeca film festival. The film is set in rural Louisiana, and it tells a story of a deeply religious woman and her struggle to reconcile her faith with the love that she holds her alcoholic, son and a troubled preacher. Philip humans has now made history as the youngest director to feature in the festival and the first African American director to win the top prize and our Nisha Menendez spoke to him about the story behind his amazing story. Thank you so much for joining us. Congratulations on recent honored. Tell me what this film burning. Kane is about so burning Kane is about Helen, Wayne. A mother living in rural Louisiana, her son Daniel and his son, Jeremiah and also her pastor Reverend Tillman in their relationships with each other their relationships with their religion in their community and how their environment and their their home. You know affects really every aspect and the fabric of their lives. It's about how religion sort of governs their community. It's about the cyclical nature of destructive behavior, and how vices passed down in lineage, very often. And it's also about the dangers of enacting a fundamentalist interpretation of religion and taking religious doctrine, literally. What is the meaning behind the title of the film burning Cain burning Kane is a part of harvesting cane? But and it's a part of the culture and the fabric of that entire process in the community of sugar cane, but it also releases toxins that are very negative. For people's health. And so I think there is just an interesting sort of dichotomy there in that it is such an important part of their economy about it's an sugarcane in that in that in that industry is important part of the culture and the fabric of that area. But it is also detrimental to their health in terms of the toxins that are releasing the air because of it. So when I feel like that's sort of touches on. You know, the the sort of the multi-dimensionality of all of the characters that are kind of populate the film. He's finished this film up during your senior year of high school seventeen years old told me about the process of making this film. So it started when I was sixteen in the December of my junior year of high school. I wrote this short script called glory. And then I I wanted to make that short, but I stepped away to make another short, and then after that mind structure at the New Orleans center for creative arts named Isaac Webb told me that he thought that the film had feature-length potential because of the fact that it was so grounded in character that it seemed like it can be something that could be made feasibly. And and so I just became like obsessed with that idea and then in the ensuing weeks and months, I was just churning out. Drafts of the feature length stripped script. Going through script provision meeting with actors all the while raising money, and and casting and then so in that summer before my senior year we went into production and shot the Boca principal photography and then shot Wendell's piece in August. And then the rest of my senior year was spent in post production for someone who doesn't go to an elite school like the one that you went to how do you make a film like this? I think at my age when when we made this film, I relied so much on the fact that. The artists that were my friends and a lot of my friends who weren't artists were just really behind my mission in my drive, and when when you can't pay people industry rate, especially when we were that young you have to rely on people wanting to work for you, regardless or wanting to work with you because they believe in you, and they believe in the project, and for me in that case as my friends, so I've actually been telling people recently that I feel like if you're as young as I was making making a film, I think you really do have to kind of rely on your friends and your community in a way to band together and help you figure out some of those resources some of those jobs. You've said I think now is probably the best time for burning. Cain to come out. Why now? Well, there's there's there's there's two parts of that. I think that. Just I think it's time for us to kind of take an objective. Look just religion in its role in our community. And how it plays into our advancement as a community. And I also think in terms of making this, you know, more like applicable sense. I had to make the film then in now. Because of the fact that there was such a community around me that there was no other time that I was going to be able to rely on people's goodwill, quite like, I could then because the moment you turn eighteen then you're an adult and people expect an entirely different thing. You know? So when I was eighteen we were already in post production. But when I was seventeen I think we kinda we were aware of the fact that people thought that we were just a student production, and in that they're willing to give so much because they were thought they were just helping out some kids, and we were, you know, young, but we always envisioned this this this going farther than just you know, a student project. There's a clip I wanna watch it comes very early in the film, and it is Wendell Pierce giving his first sermon that we see NFL take a look. Says he has got he has learned that is not to be true. That's not true. He who dies with the most toys wins. You can go out there and try to get a pretty dress. But that don't mean, nothing if you're gonna lose your soul. He who dies with the most toys wins. He knows that's not to be true. Because when he died he better have good relationships is that didn't get him across Jordan in heaven. No toys, get you into heaven. It's the friendships that you have is the kindness that you do did you close me when I was naked. Did you give housing when I had no place to live. Did you feed me when I was haunting? Give me water. With all his thirst. He who dies with the most toys wins. What good is it for man to gain the whole world, but lose his soul talk to me about the dichotomy of cutting between this sermon, and then this man reckoning with his own demons. There's some truth what Tillman says in that sermon in that he believes that friendships and personal relationships are more valuable than material possessions. And I think most of us can kind of agree with that. And I just kind of wanted to show the fact that there can be some truth that comes from this, man. And he can also still be broken. He can still be a beacon for people that may status at passers have. But still be grappling with all those same demons on his own. And it's just brings about the question of whether or not we should be following anybody who can't really practice what they preach. But we should should we even expect anyone to be able to do that. That's a whole nother question. You know, how did you convince Wendell Pierce to be a part of this film? Well, so in the in the in the months leading up to pre-production well in the months leading up to production, actually, I was working at morning coffee sand in city park. And I was waiting on a woman named Lula ELS e who's also an alumni the same high school that Wendell and I went to the New Orleans center for creative arts, and I went up to miss L z, and I was waiting on our table. And she asked me about what I wanted to do. What's who I went to? And then I was talking to her about some of the roles in the project told her that we'd cast it pretty much every role except. This preacher. Now was just kind of explaining the preachers motivations where he was in his life. And she thought she said, what do you think of Wendell Pierce playing the role? And of course, I like fruit out Wendell Wendell is so is big in our community, not only because he's a brilliant actor, but because of because of the work that he's done in Ponta train park where he grew up in sort of helping stop off the gentrification that was coming through that area. And then she texted him right in that moment. And then he responded to her quickly. I think she said like there's an August student who shooting a feature film this summer. He's interested in seeing you play this role. And he was like, okay. Give them my Email. And so I got his Email, and after that, it was really just a back and forth with the script trying to make dates work looping him into all scripture, visions, and. But Wendell coming in it it helped expand the community. Because initially the film was so much more centered on Daniel and Helen's relationship as a mother and son. When you came in loud is to kind of build this entire portrait as a community and show and show how Helen's religion and the people that she she associates with her religion how they directly affect her actions with her loved ones in her family. So it just it allowed the entire story. The entire community of laurel valley to be fleshed out. How did working with Wendell change you as director? I think before working with Wendell or even before burning Kane, I had I had kind of messed up idea about what directing was what did you think? It was. I thought it was so much more. You know, commanding so much more so much more authoritarian than it, really. Is it really should be? It's so much more about the conversations that you have. And sometimes maybe even the conversations that you have before you even show up set, you know, and. You know? And I think what working with Wendell and Cayenne Dominique taught me is that they're they're brilliant actors, and you have to give brilliant actors the space create alongside you. It was just it was just a back and forth dialogue. And and I mean, he made all the great choices. So it's yeah. It worked out. This is not the only character in the film that struggles with addiction. Let's take a look at another clip. And then. Thanks. Sleep out. The main character. This is her son dance around with his son has the little boy a bottle talked to me about addiction. So diction runs through. My family alcoholism is probably the most prevalent example of that. And. Before I made burning Cain. Actually, it was when I was seventeen in my junior year. I kind of had a little spout of alcoholism myself because I was always able to grow a beard pretty easily. And so I would go up to go up to like discount stores in the city in the seven word and like get out because they didn't ID me because I looked older, but I was really kind of self medicating. I was a particularly low point then was insecure jealous, and he really kind of sabotaging the relationship that I was in. And then it wasn't making things any better. When when the girl that I was dating at the time. She was also dealing with some sort of alcoholism with her own family and her own father. You know? So it was just it was kind of a toxic cycle in that. And and I recognize that it was self medicating. My mother caught me actually a few times. That's why she told me to shave the beard after that, I stopped drinking as much you know, I stayed away from hard liquor. And so I just kind of had my own personal experiences with some of the jealousy, and insecurity and alcoholism that Daniel finds himself with albeit Daniels is much more magnified. And has a much much much harsher context in terms of him being an adult and having to care for his child, and and all that. But what I wanted to really touch on with Daniel, Jeremiah's relationship, more than anything in that sort of fear of alcoholism is just the fact that things can be passed on so easily. That's another thing. That's that's sort of cyclical cyclical nature vices and how they're passed on from generation to generation. And that's something that's president of movie not only in alcoholism. But also in smoking. It's when it's routine when it's normalized, it's so easy to to let them become a part of your routine, and I definitely want to touch on that with burning Kane and Daniel Jeremiah's relationship, the mother Helen who's played by Karen, Kyle livers, one of the more complex and dynamic characters in this film. It's take a look. It was missed a tad who helped me to get up. And by the grace of God, I could walk away shoot. I was scared. I was going to have to be wheelchair. Geno. Help at a lower. The find is also by. Great. Glad to see that. You don't okay? Eat you've said Wendell is our lead milk character. But the story revolves around Helen and her decisions are experiences define burning Kane how so so Helen is is is the character and burning cane that has the major dramatic question that really has a major decision to make which is which is how does she proceed with knowing the man that her son has become and how does she feel as a mother is there any guilt that she feels for how he's turned out? And it's also how does she respond? What action does she take to what he's done, and which is not just as grappling with his alcohol also with domestic violence. Yes. Yes. And what what I wanted to speak on especially with Helen is that there's a danger in acting fundamentalists interpretation of religion and. By the end of the film. She takes tillman's words in his guidance. Literally. And in that in that very fundamentalist interpretation of what she's saying she takes what he says she takes action from that. But her major question is how does she help the people and the men in her life really that that she loves a pastor her grandson and her son Daniel said, my artistic identity is defined by humanizing more than it is by my blackness does that mean, so I am I wanna tell honest nuanced black stories, you know, there's a there's an offer centers, and that is always going to be a part of my work. But I think above all that even if not even above all that. But in kind of intend with that is is showcasing the duality in the nuance of our experience that I think there's something important about us being able to as black people be able to tell our stories and be able to be able to show ourselves in that fallible light. But I think hospital from black perspective to make sure that the human is the element is still. There. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And that is a lot of talent packed into that young man, and we wanna end up program with a tribute to two of Hollywood's Grondahl dams who've passed on this weekend. I Peggy Lipton age seventy two whose work in the mud squad and twin peaks in did her two generations and who's dole show with Quincy? Jones Rashida Jones proves that. The apple does not fall too far from the tree and ninety seven years old Doris day has passed as well, her star turns in pillow talk calamity, Jane, and the man who knew too much many, many others made the girl next door a Hollywood icon. Thanks for watching tonight. And goodbye from London, and is Doris day herself might have said Kay Serov. Sarah. Okay. Sarah. Will be will be the future's not ours to see k Sera Sera. What will be will be second verse where I? That child in school. I asked my teacher. What should I try should pin? Are you interested in learning how great companies grow? 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Google Bill Campbell King Lear Facebook Eric Schmidt Wendell Wendell Glenda Jackson Helen China Mark Zuckerberg president United States director founder Mr. Shakespeare Kane Daniel Reverend Tillman YouTube Senator Elizabeth Warren
Episode 541: You Left With The Pictures

Overthinking It Podcast

1:00:45 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 541: You Left With The Pictures

"For November twelfth two thousand eighteen it's the overthinking at podcast episode five hundred forty one you left with the pictures. To over thinking it where we subject the popular culture to level of scrutiny. It'd probably doesn't deserve. I'm not rather. And that is Peter Fenzl. Hey, pete. Are you doing I maybe a little bit better than you? Perhaps. Yeah. Maybe cal-, California. The bleeding edge is actually the the flaming edge this week. Apparently, we have some sort of crisis of of forest management. You know? Is that what you see is fundamentally the problem is this is a managerial process problem that everybody's trying to adjust to I only I don't really need to joke that much 'cause this very serious. But at the same time, you kind have to a little bit to say saying, these kinds of situations -absolutely do when the you know, I like to stay away from the political stuff mostly because I don't like, hey, hate mail. But when the president goes on tweeting about, hey, the real problem here is bad forest management policy. Like, even if that were true, and it's not it's false. Right. But like the the other thing is California's dumping its water into the ocean. Not true. But even if it were true, like not the time to talk about that like quarter million people have been evacuated or being like driven from their homes by thirty foot wall of flame like the there's been loss of life. There's been a men's property damage in the in the handful of fires. And then like. We we were in the same situation last year in California man, like the rising temperature coupled with the sort of permit drought brought on by bad water-management policy. Right. Like, no just brought on by a number of. Climatological factors. Like, it's it's it is scary and people are really suffering. And it's not the time to it's not the time to provide a critique of the administrative state who hitch like if it even if it is true, which even if it were true, I should say using this objective mood to express a condition, contrary to fact, which let me be clear it is not anyway. Yeah. California has been California has been a hell of a place over the last couple of days with a mass shooting and enormous enormous wildfires. Burning up a lot of wilderness and a lot of property as well and people are dying. It's really it's really. It's really weird. So anyway, that Suri no, let's let's go into the, you know, let's jump in right to clarify further. Part of why I talked to you about it in a familiar fashion is that you've been in the midst of this. This is not a news story that exists for you in the abstract. This is under you've been experiencing directly over the course of the last day or two. Yeah. I I have accurate it for Malibu. I so like on a whim on Thursday night. I was like, hey, let's go. Let's go. Visit my girlfriend up in her house and Nala boo. I didn't even really think about the fires. They were not threatening her city at that point. So I drove the the half hour up the up the coast to spend the spend the evening there and. So, you know, smash cut to waking up the next morning like know, bumper to bumper traffic on Pacific Coast Highway and the news coming in through all kinds of electronic and old school means like including sheriff's deputies banging on the door cars with loudspeakers driving by saying like evacuate a mandatory evacuation and all the like text alerts and things like that that you can sign up for not the test of the presidential alert system. No, the useful alerts that come from the county. I think that all that all was was blowing up and we had to. You know, throw some stuff in a car and get out of her house. Now at the at the time, I feel like I I don't know if I should be embarrassed about this in retrospect, but I guess I don't mind saying like there is something in our psychology that that makes you not want to countenance idea of disaster right of a sort of terrible disaster happening. And so I I was trying to keep the mood light. Like, we weren't leaving my house relieving her house, and you know, this is probably out of an abundance of caution. Like, we're all your stuff's going to be fine. But you know, let's do the exercise of putting the, you know, the passport, and the, you know, the the stuff her father is passed. And so like there was this thing like, oh, we gotta get her dad's ashes, and you know, carry them. Though, she made the joke, and she made it not not me. Right. Because it would be insensitive. I had made it. But it's like, well, I guess it wouldn't be bad if they burnt they're already ashes. I mean, you have to stay you have to cope, right? You're out a way to cope with. And that is that is what like that kind of like levity was what got us through that. It was only later we left to say, I my car up there. So we left in two separate cars. But it was only later when I was alone and had some time to reflect as we were making the the drive. It took me an hour to go like three hundred yards. The first in the first leg of this this evacuation because the traffic was being managed badly turns out fire knocks out power sometimes. So the traffic control like traffic lights were not functioning in a lot of crucial places, which was which was just a nightmare. But I. I thought later gosh that is surreal like an and anyone I witnessed it. But I haven't been through it myself. But like, you think about people in situations, you know, by natural disaster, or by some sort of some sort of political cause or for whatever reason, you know, the horrors of war. What have you who have to be like, okay? You can take what you carry on your back. What do you want to preserve? And what are you? Okay. Never seeing again. And that is a rough. That's a rough kind of kind of choice to make when you put it in those stark terms, I guess the common. The commonplace is like pictures, right? This sort of memory, the kind of the the keepsakes memories that sort of add up to your to your identity right in my in my girlfriend's case. She has a book of like a hand bound book of letters that her grandmother wrote her from the time she was a baby until the time. She was eighteen and like that was you know, it's this incredibly important thing to her because that grandparent wasn't important relationship to her growing up. And so like that you know that goes in the car, you know, these days with with photos in on various kinds of electron IX over storage. You don't need to think about that as much, but yeah, no. I mean, it's we actually don't know the ultimate fate of of her house. It's it was standing the last time. We checked like has of the as of this recording. And I suppose how give a I suppose I'll give an update the next time. The next time we have a thing. But like, yeah, it was not I've actually because I live in LA proper. You know in the the actual city not in a wilderness area. I don't have. I don't live with the same kind of risk of that particular kind of natural disaster. So this was my first time sort of going through this. And like again, I like I I don't want to trivialize it. I didn't go through it. I was there to kind of hell just by having since I was there to help and support someone else who's going through it. But but man like, and then I put I sent some some of the photos of of the smoke billowing over the hills in the our chat room, Pete. And like you said you saw. What it looked like it's it's pretty apocalyptic. And now with the winds the winds kind of going crazy, which is one factor having that makes makes this landscape very susceptible to fire right now because of the particular wind condition that we have called the Santa Ana winds where hot dry winds blow from inland out to the ocean. The normal of that which is a reverse the normal trend. You know, this has gotten blown all around the city and and all of LA, smells like smoke like a barbecue. Anyway, like, I I I'm not sure what the pop culture angle on. I'll tell you. This is a pop culture podcast. So I'll jump in. And I'll during this new a pop culture angle right now because you were just talking about things that people are thinking about Ono will I ever get to see this thing again. Right. And you sort of have a sumptious in your life that there's certain things that you have that. You'll never really completely lose you. Hold onto you. You're really sacred object said some sort of big catastrophe comes you're gonna want to secure those things and take them with you wherever you go. Unfortunately for all of us. And of course, there's a lot of shared pain. And we're hoping and praying that everybody is is gonna be okay. And the people who haven't, you know, people say safe, I know people already being hurt and killed that. He's fires. And and you know, the brave firefighters and everything it's all very important. Pub culture angle there is something that you've been seeing for many years that you will never see again. And that's the reality. Right. The thing. And there's been a lot of coverage of the different kinds of things that people know about that have been damaged in these fires now the paramount ranch gone, right? And I feel like it's worth touching on. This is you gotta you gotta explain what what that is to people's paramount ranch is a western town. That was built it was I it was first set up way back in the twenties and was used for western movies. And for western TV shows. It's an ex-. It's an exterior set. Exactly exactly think about this sort of you know, in blazing saddles where they build the town. I don't think that's that. It might be the town. I don't know actually excel. But that's sort of the idea of what what western town kind of is. It's like the ultimate. Constructed permanent sort of town that exist for shooting movies on with sort of old timey Cowboys stuff, you might know it from the television show Westworld or from the television show, Dr Quinn medicine woman. And I gotta think that each of us have seen this place as the sort of timeless place for years and years and years, I kind of wonder whether back the future three was shot there or not do you think it was I should probably look that up. But the point is that the fires destroyed it, and so there's not going to be another. You can't do it dark quit medicine woman reboot that takes place in the same sense because the sense of destroyed which is just kind of interesting and funny and sad because you think of this sets are replica of something that it existed in the past it also been destroyed. And so the paramount ranch was itself sort of thing that was taken from the kind of ravages of time and placed in this area of California where it sort of was secluded and seemed to be relatively preserved for for almost. One hundred years until this fire sweeps by and destroys it. So it's interesting to think that something that can mean something to you in the abstract like that. It's just it's interesting for me to think that that California the actual physical earth of California like the material the material substance of California is represented is so much in all sorts of different kinds of environments in television movies. And so the when California is damaged it affects all these other things, they're the TV movies. I mean, New York is like that to where it's all the TV, and it's all the movies. And then when you are changes, you know, the World Trade Center falls down more often, you know, there's right of Asians in new buildings, and I guess the World Trade Center was the big one. You can always see when they have the exterior shot, and it shows the World Trade Center, the twin towers, and then the nothing and now the freedom tower as a New York skyline thing, right? Like, right. The you can kind of date things to that based on that. You know, what what they show is the New York skyline. It's a it's a useful kind of carbon dating that you can do. Yeah. And now if you see a movie that has that kind of classic very wide porch main street wouldn't western building with a balcony on top and a big railing and a little kind of like frontage, that's maybe half as wide as as the second floor as it is on the first, you know, if you see that next to a little stable with a bucket or a barrel. Then you know, that this is something that was done before twenty eighteen because that building isn't there ebor, even though it was there for you know, almost one hundred years of right? That's which is predate. I mean, I don't know where they're western towns known probably not in the. The one hundred years ago, right? One hundred years ago was nineteen eighteen. Which bright because the we're celebrating all over the world the. The hundred year anniversary of the end of the first World War with decorum dignity, you know, and full participation from all of our world leaders. But the the the set is a Similac REM right and thinking of it as being having an identity, you know, of what having an identity as a. As a thing as that has some sort of positive existence in itself rather than being a sort of absence or sort of not absence. What am I trying to say a a sort of potentialities right that that creative people writers directors and things can and actors can sort of? Create out of being kind of raw material kind of kind of his dark materials that can be. Sort of shaped into any form the idea that this particular outdoor set is gone. Well, what you know? What is that? What is a set? Really, right. Like what what is an artificial? What is an artificial construction. That's not really made to be thing. But that's only made to represent a thing. Superficially to and then to think of that as being destroyed, and what have you lost in that? In that destruction. I mean, you've lost I guess actual real buildings real, you know, split rail fences real. Clavert real do whatever what is that double hung windows. Right. But. But more than that. You've you've lost. You've lost an idea and just thinking about whether the idea is the. Whether the idea or the physical. Structure is the greater laws is sort of an interesting thought experiment, right? Yeah. I just I find it. Interesting to consider how much of the spectacle, that's associated with movies and television shows in sort of America Centric, viewpoint is informed by the act of looking at California. It's like what are you doing until it? What are you doing? Watching the television. I'm looking at California and its many different forms. I'm looking at parts of it that look like this. I'm looking at the parts of it that look like that. And there are people there who have costumes. It is interesting to consider is California itself a stage in a certain respect because so much gets shot on it in so many different ways. And and so does it become a player or is it a negative space? Is it a positive space? I don't think these are easy questions answer any varies from place to place. But I wonder certainly as the in very material substances of the physical locations are annihilated. There seems. Something is lost. It feels like something is lost. And so something had to have been there, I suppose, although maybe it's also just a general sort of fear and pity for the the human costs as well as for the loss of, you know, various sorts of material things in his kind of conflict ration- that there's a sort of general sympathy that extends to all of the pain and suffering associated with this fire in all fires that consume in this sort of way, and then the setting of thing like Westworld, or particular, I don't know it bothers me more that that set of Dr Quinn medicine woman was destroyed. I don't know that resonated with me in some strange way. Like, Dr Quinn, medicine woman isn't supposed to have taken place somewhere that could be annihilated. I just there's just something about it. That just seems to me like that's not the way that it's supposed to be. And I guess I guess next takes that connects a lot of it right connects a lot of what's happening this weekend with regards to the fires, you know, the people moving and trying to stay ahead. Of the fires and not knowing where the winds are coming and the loss of kind of celebrity icon ick things like the bachelor ranch. Right. Gerard Butler's house has been an eyelid. And I only laugh at it. Because I know Gerard Butler is okay. Because he posted an Instagram photo where he was talking very much about how much he respects firefighters, which lets me know that Gerard Butler knows that he's going to be. Okay. Right. But it's not great to have your house destroyed regardless of who you are. So, but it's interesting to consider like Gerard Butler? It's not it's not more. Okay. To have your house destroyed if you're famous actor and have found fancy house, right? Still the experience. If you can easily find another place to live, then it's not so bad. But then rephrase if you can't find another place to live, your situation is much worse. Yes is more dire for sure, but if you can't live up Muslim necessarily make the situation better like is still bat, but it's funny because Gerard Butler because of his projects as another sort of actor who works, you know, I don't necessarily think of the problems that you are Butler faces in fictional setting. As being particularly serious. You know, it's like, oh, no, there's the gamer, right? Oh, no, the three hundred is happening again, or whatever I don't even know if he's into second one, probably not I would guess because he dies. I don't know. I didn't even watch the second three hundred movie. But the point is that I'm glad that you are Butler is performing the act of being okay with it. And so it sort of feels okay? But what what I'm suggesting here is this connects with. With with with World War One and with Armistice Day and Veterans Day, and sort of idea of like things happen and people are never the same and things are lost. And the loss is a presence right as well. As an absence the law sort of hangs around and exists. And so it's sort of like, there's a great. There's a great scene in in book seven of Harry Potter where you know, spoiler alert for Harry Potter. If you haven't read it, you know, you don't you deserve to have it spoiled for you at this point. But the though that's not unless you're too young to have read Harry every every day someone is born who hasn't read Harry Potter yet. The the scene I'm thinking about happens in a train station at the end after the villain is Ben thank wished and Harry talks to Dumbledore. And you know, they wrap up some thematically important material for the book and. As a final thing. Harry says, hey, this happening in my head or is this real and Dumbledore replies. Of course, it's happening in your head. But why on earth? Would you think that makes it not real right? And it it strikes me with this. This thing you know, that you're talking about like doctor Quinn medicine woman like lives lives in an internal pass. That is supposed to be always there. Right. And I wonder if the destruction of the set for Dr Quinn medicine woman, like gives lie to the idea that it will always be there or that. It was ever always there. But with Dr Quinn medicine woman, you did you follow the right advice? Pete, right? Like, you left with the pictures? You know? You walked away with the important things mementos that kind of reconstruct the narrative of who you are. And and what's important, and I think, you know, this this connects also to the material the direction that I I gather you're going with with Warren and veterans right like there is both a physical, and psychological or physical, and spiritual or physical and kind of more notional extension of things events. You know in the direction of the in the direction of the real and the direction of I suppose, the newness or the notional, right? And and this happens to. This happens in war. You know, we know that and World War One being the first sort of mechanized war, right? Was one of the the first in which a certain kind of horror beyond the scale to comprehend. It was unleashed. The though. Whereas been held as long as there has been war. I think it was Aerostat unease who called war that great Steiner of men's thighs because they would poop themselves as they as the two the two armies ran at one another a very different sort of war than than the war depicted in the Homeric epics more actually mechanized much, more D personalized. For form of armies, you know, battling battling one another. But, but you know, an and again, this is something I say with no actual personal experience. But just some observations. And some some friends who I've supported at various times of years. Even people who come back completely physically unharmed, physically unharmed, often describe a kind of mental psychological, or spiritual sort of rupture that has that that they really they really live with. And like we, you know, we have a vogue for sort of scientists tick definitions of things now. And so now, it's sort of categorized by the discipline of psychology. And it's. You know, kind of put into insurance billable terms. But in at other times in human history, it's been described as a kind of soul sickness that that that people come back with with right and how much in an act, you know, how much of the physical and how much of of the psychological very often coexist in in acting in a house like the one of the horrifying things about losing your home. Is not just sort of destruction is not just the financial ruin is not just the the, you know, insecurity about where to lay your head about getting yourself shelter. But it's also the the idea that the physical and the sort of spiritual idea of home of safety, right, which is one thing that's provided by a home of sort of a kind of soil in which to put down roots of sort of building blocks of identity. You know, the the if if my childhood home gut forbid that should ever happen. But if disaster were ever to befall, my childhood home, the thing that would probably reduce me to tears faster than anything else. Imagining the loss of is the door with my brother and my heights, you know. Marked marked on it with the date with our name and the date as we as we grew up to our to our full adult height. And that like what is that? Is it the the actual artifact is the physical thing is that the marks is it what the marks represent is at the idea of having grown up in a place. Or or or is it something else? You know? I don't know it it. It puts puts you in puts you in mind of the. Puts you in mind of the mystical a little bit. And that is. I suppose it very overthinking type of place to be. Yeah. Yeah. It's really interesting. I think when something like what you're describing happens toll large groups of people it sends this shockwave through the culture that then as you're sort of coming at the culture later and kind of trying to understand what people are thinking. And how it changes you can't really look away from how this happened to so many people in time. I mean, I lost my child at home for financial problems at a pack everything in van and kind of get out before the sheriff's took things. This is this is legit something that happened. And it was a huge loss for me personally. But it was interesting. I joked that it was like this happened to me two thousand three and two thousand and it happened to all sorts of other people in two thousand eight and so it's like she guys aren't with the times, which she goes back. I sex you have like you have to joke about these things because they're to painful, but also this idea of there's there are sort of these dislocation shock waves that affect large groups of people that are on a different scale of understanding when they happen to people individually, and it's there's kind of an interchange of ideas between the sort of individuals suffering of that sort of soul sickness that you're describing, and then the sort of the the group kind of sensing it in each other feeling it from each other in reacting to it from each other, which I think seems to be something that's demonstrably it happens and one of the things that I wish jumping back and forth. And I think it's appropriate jumping back and forth, different sorts of kinds of losses of a vast. Different scale. But when you're really thinking about the first World War and Armistice Day. I find, you know, of course, the predecessor to veteran's day the eleventh day, the eleventh hour the eleventh month is when the war finally comes to its end, which was not scripted as far as I can tell. But was in fact, just sort of the way that it worked out real if you scripted it. Someone would would put a note in the margin that that's really hacky. It's a little bit on the nose. Right. But just that that the idea that Armistice Day was a day that we that you celebrated that this sort of horrible thing was done and thinking about the symbols of the poppies when you were talking and jumping back and forth between the people who are psychologically suffering that you've met because of the difficulty that they've had in in wars. And the you've read about over the years and denting it with the sense of place and our of loss of of place that happens when say your house burns down. Knock on wood, or whatever, you know. Windsor thing happens. It definitely made me think of the poppy fields, which are these sort of really powerful cultural symbol of World War of the aftermath of World War One. Right. You know in Flanders fields, the poppies grow. And and in the UK, you know, wearing the wearing the poppy as the symbol of remembrance. And yes, you know, you can see it with a sort of patriotic, Ben. But also just this idea that the cultural practice surrounding the loss gives a spiritual sense of place to the dislocation spiritual dislocation sickness psychological dislocation sickness that comes from the great suffering loss. That's happened. It's interesting to think of like this new model poppy field where everybody that your morning has lost. And also like thinking about it not necessarily as sort of abstract holiday for like the the virtue of being in service, which is great. And all but like not really like, that's fine. But urinal purpose of the holiday is a very specific remembrance of. The people that you knew who were dead, and and as such sort of evolution over time is kind of transformative. And of course, yes, it's important and useful to have these kinds of holidays, but underneath it is very different sort of feeling of sort of wave of superintendents loss. I always feel like it's weird. And this is sort of jumping around and definitions of pop culture because we've talked about Westworld we've talked about doctrine medicine, women but holidays, right? Also that you know in America, we have the two military holidays. We have Veterans Day. And we have Memorial Day Veterans Day is for those who have served and Memorial Day is for those who have died. I don't know if people around the world are as aware of this kind of dichotomy a lot of the times, the United States has kind of off holidays that celebrate sort of the same things that other countries celebrates, you know, like we have a Labor Day, which is different from May Day, which is actually older than May Day. But like Why's it all the same day and your labor day's different bar Labor Day, it Senator it gets very complicated. But and kind of nice little Kapadia rabbit hole. But just the idea that like we that Armistice Day originally, I think of as a somber day of mourning and remembrance in coping for the losses that were suffered in the tragedy of the great war. And not so much as a like fist pump. You know, high five we got the Kaiser kind of holiday, right, which is not really what Veterans Day is either. That's more fourth of July. But it's like. The idea that it's that it's patriotic is is kind of is fraught because there's different modes of what it means to be patriotic, obviously. But this sense of shock wave of powerful loss is something that I think informs allot of. Patriotic holidays that have a maturity to them and EVA's trip connection with their history says that like there's not just like the abstract loss. Like, oh, these people were so brave, and they died they were heroes which is important, but very impersonal, but more that like I knew these people or these were real people. Right. Like, this isn't just any hill in California. This is like the doctor admits house or like by house, you know, or like my family, like, my my parents, or whatever, you know. My husband my wife people people died. It's just it's just interesting that. That it's that like the shock wave of loss kind of settles, and there's a rebuilding that happens on top of it that somewhat comprehends it and somewhat can't shake it. And the ways that people cope with it kind of fade in terms of how well they're understood. They're different. I mean, there are different kinds different kinds of losses. Right. We're talking now about sort of sudden or devastating loss or loss that we sort of conceive of as unjust in in some way. Right. Like sort of losing. Losing someone in an accident is different than than losing someone who has lived a long and happy life who dies peacefully in bed or something. Like that. Like, it's a we conceive of them differently, and we sort of process them we kind of categorize them differently mentally there in in different buckets. So. The biggest example of that that I think of the culture is the story from which Kim King Lear is adapted versus King Lear. We're like the story that King Lear is debt from King Lear like lives to a ripe old age, and is sort of, you know, and is is welcomed into the bosom of death that his appropriate time after he's been rightfully restored. After all the injustices. He suffered Shakespeare's King Lear does not end in this manner. Hope it different turns out. He was not crazy after all. House. Well, that ends well just not the moral of the story at all. So I enter upped and foreign and fortin brusque ruled peacefully for fifty years for bras had then we just wished everyone back to life, but the dragon ball. So that's how it ends. We have a perfect q. So I I can't help. But laugh in this face of so much suffering, which is unfortunate. But yeah, I mean spectacularly thinking about California right now. Right. And I think that stay I think you have to it's an interesting thing the impulse to sort of do to do comedy, right? Because I I think there's something literally incomprehensible in like, literally something you can't wrap your mind around. It's, you know, the kind of the the machinery of your mind is not designed to encompass comprehend. You know, large scale devastation right in like sort of thing thinking through historical events. Where where it's happened like saw almost to a one that sort of worst comedians make their make their living, isn't it like because those are the not just because those are extreme examples and a lot of comedy has to do with exaggeration. You know? But but also because that's where the that's where the discomfort is, you know, and and and. I don't know dealing dealing with the discomfort is is like finding an alternative way other than like just curling up into a ball. You know, finding alternative way to deal with the discomfort is is sort of what what comedy is for when you're toddler when you're like a young child before your your before your rapier like wit is fully developed. You're like Oscar Wilde, Ian quips in Bomo, right? Like, you're you actually do curl up into Paul and cry when when anything that happens, right? Like, you know, I don't know your your brother takes your toys. You're out of Rice Krispies, you're, you know, I don't know or or anything, but we there there are compensatory kind of coping mechanisms that we develop I mean that that is to say, I don't think we should necessarily something. We're not trivializing anybody's experience. I don't think we should necessarily feel bad about about using humor to kind of process. The magnitude of of, you know, large scale loss or destruction. Because. I don't know. Because that's we we don't have that many other tools to do it with, you know, this really interested in thinking about all this stuff in the concept of resolve nece. I brought this up to you are planning before the podcast. I wanna 'cause 'cause I think Veterans Day grizzled veteran is a phrase that exists in the culture. And I'm interested in this idea of grizzled nece. I'm I'm written still reading the same books that I was reading when we did the dragon bookmark podcast, and which was all about kind of using your own solitary time, right in ways that were nurturing and supportive for you band. One of them involve reading fantasy novels and such. But there's you know, there's a character in the book that I'm currently reading which is to on to green angel tower by tad Williams, which by the way every single page. There was another thing that game of thrones shamelessly ripped off in. It's larry. I just got the part where there's the black horn with the ruins on it, and they blow it does do. Anything? And it's like all right. All right. All right. Like like, the five hundred thing that is very clearly been copped for the game of thrones books. But anyway. There's this character named isg Rimmer. I think he's called her something like that. Just very sort of like, you phonic Lii and kind of the taste in your mouth is very similar to the grizzled grimmer or any this like big Duke guy who gets he gets dispossessed his lands, and he has to go undercover to go and kind of find this lost Princess and a lot of his story is about him complaining not not really complaining about like being grumpy. He's in like, this is a guy who was like thought in many great wars, and it's supposed to be really strong and very resilient and kind of very very imposing figure, and he's always kind of like grumpy and about his situation, but like, very perseverance, and it strikes me as kind of an archetype for a war veteran. Right, which which is sort of a core. Literally cartoonish archetype of war veteran anyway, cartoonish, I don't just mean in the diminishing since I mean, if you were to make cartoon this is what you would make is this sort of like the square head. Right. I mean Grizzle the name refers to the grayness, right? The shock of gray hair. The idea that somebody has a streak of gray hair, which is a product of their age. But I guess also symbolically product of the fact that they've seen death in encountered it, and that this makes part of your hair term, gray and that as personality traits that are associated with it that sometimes manifest in real life. And sometimes don't not been real times. You like me matter more of kind of coping through comedy and humor, and laughing and processing kind of guy I think, but there's a lot of people who cope through being caught quiet. Right. But is it the quotas? No PF was seen myself as the strong silent type. I guess that's what I'm asking about is. This is how much of what's happening with the strong. Silent types is a product of the spirituals shockwave of horrible loss and end, right. And how much of it is kind of Apocalypse Now versus how much of it is like man at arms from he man who merely doesn't talk much because his job doesn't require him to. He's like. He's like what mustache and I can bring you the tank, right? I can I don't really have to do much else. I don't have feelings. I mean, that's a trope of it's a trope of of not only war movies, but any kind of but but any sort of coming of age movie, right? Like, the sort of the character who doesn't take seriously kind of coming around to take it seriously, and you can sort of like view that in one light as a character who like copes with jokes and. You know, and kind of distractions to transitioning into a character who copes by being the strong silent type like bye bye bye sort of recognizing the mystery of the world and trying neither to address. It's too blunt. It's it's terrifying. Force you want to try a little experiment if you're up for it. I am let's do it. Let can we roll this conversation back to the beginning? And try to have it as grizzled strong silent types is that something we could try to and see whether it offers insights into the human condition that are not revealed by being snarky and overly verbose. Is that possible? Welcome to the overthinking podcast where we talk a Matt. Yeah. Good see him and new to buddy how you doing. Better. Fair. Out there. Donen tone. I'm no I can't do. If comes it gets campy, it gets camping very fast. Right. And maybe that's just you and me. Yeah. Probably, but camping this is this is sort of what we talked about camping before both on the podcast and also in the member hangouts the premium member as we have we've had great conversations about camp that that this is trying to be more. We're trying to be more of the thing than thing. It self is. We're trying to play this role with an intensity that it doesn't. I guess isn't doesn't feel authentically as having real life. But I mean, certainly people get quiet certainly do and I don't want to disrespect that. I don't wanna sisters getting quiet and getting defensive and also I don't want to disrespect like not really feeling like you to anybody to talk about your situation or your problems. If like, you know, I don't I don't want to have to engage with these people. I have I have no real obligation does socialize with anybody. Who has to be about this? It was very pleasant, right. Yes. Just interesting. I met I met through. I think prob. We talked about it on the podcast before I've met it in grad school admit Antoine Fisher. And did a play with him. He is the author whose book Antoine Fisher became the film. Antoine Fisher with Derek Luke and Denzel Washington about you know, autobiographical story and one of the things I you know, in preparation for the work that we were doing on the same material. I read the book, and I saw the movie, but but for the purposes of this I read the book, and he sort of describes a very writer -ly. Observation that he had a realization that he had as a young boy, he said, I I realized that I could have all of these opinions and perspectives on the world and keep them to myself. Right. And that like for him growing up. There was a certain amount of power and kind of like, you know, cool universe. Right. There was this all this. You know world built hang all of this personal world building that happened through keeping his thoughts to himself. I am constituted differently. As a as a personality. I, and I I really don't think I do have the writer Lee personality. Right. But the that sort of observation all kind of take it all in let it brew personality. I mean, we have you know, what? A thousand or more hours of us just talking on the internet, right? Like, that's that's that's not the that's not this island. That's not the sort of the brooding writer Lee type, which is not to say you can't be a good writer doing doing both. But. I mean, you see you see what I'm saying. Right. That like there is something there is a kind of power. And there is a cool. There can be kind of cool expression of self in not not talking right? Like also, I feel like there is this idea. There's this idea these days that these days. As though as though it weren't it hasn't ever been thus. There's this idea that that you can be kind of summoned upper kind of put on the spot and that like people can. People that people have the right to I don't know tell you what to you know, tell you what to say when it is time to bear witness or or something like that. And like that's not you know, that's not necessarily that's not necessarily true. Right. Like, you don't have to tell your worst story. If you're worse raise upsetting to you. And telling it doesn't do anything for you. You don't necessarily. Oh it to an audience. They can't just like order that orders that off the menu. I feel like there's there are I don't know kind of boundary issues. A lot of the time in in relationships when you think about how how we can start to use each other. That you know that sort of bear on this. I guess like war stories like is one like people don't wanna talk about traumatic traumatic events in their lives. And that's that's like, that's okay too. Right. Like, if we need room thing, we need a way of. I'm gonna say a phrase, I don't like we need a way of holding space. I don't like it because I don't actually know what it means need a way of for allowing for the importance of something without necessarily airing there, it is airing it, and there is this sort of. In the kind of information ecology that we find ourselves in. There is this this almost pornographic sort of surfeit of information, you know, of all of all sorts and the information withheld. Can be important as well. And and it's something that we need to honor and not necessarily insist that wants to be shared her all wants to be free. You know, what I mean there's so much being shared that. It's easy to assume that you're hearing everything. Oh, damn. I didn't think I was gonna get an old dam. Sure. Why not? Yeah. I mean that is a great. That is a great. I mean, can can you cash that out a little bit because that's a really great observation. Just that. If you listen than listen to you, listen to many different people. I mean, one of the basic corollaries of it is kind of social desire ability, right? Which is that anybody. You're not gonna hear you're not gonna if you survey or you ask or you, listen, you're not gonna hear people saying things that is not evidence to them to say. And this is but also just that even more than that even more than the phenomenon of the people who raise their voices. The most are the people who frame the narrative for everybody and the idea that if you're trying to understand what's happening. You listen to the people who are talking and not only that. But not only this idea that the kind of history is written by the writers and the talkers as opposed to by the victors right by the people who are putting it out there. But more that's as the listener. I think there's a there's a bit of a transformation that can happen where the idea of the world and the scope of the world changes based on the kind of sense of satisfaction that you might have in for better for. Worse in the instant of taking in of other people's emotional expression. I would say that that you encounter other people's feelings, maybe I encounter other people's feelings onto projected onto you propose this. I can't other people's feelings. And if I can counter sufficient sort of diversity in scope and strength, the feelings there's a feeling on my part of certain satisfaction of like, oh, I feel like I really have have taken in. You know, I've taken in what people are saying. And and I can think like I've heard I mean, certainly hurt more than I can handle, you know, you take it more of the emotions of others than you can necessarily kind of feel, you know, secure in balanced in kind of like letting into your brain. And then you could feel like well that must be enough. Right. That must be in the know. Maybe it's totally not maybe maybe it's not a case of more being the answer to to understanding, but they're being kind of structural shortcomings in the way that you could rive understanding was how I would catch it out. Guess all of the I was much pithier. I don't know that does the trick. Is it worth? There's also I mean, there's also a feel like even more than the technical argument. There's also kind of a moral argument about it, which is that you know, there's a there's a. Yeah. The the idea the idea that you could be missing something fundamental about the world. Right. And this goes this goes back to the idea of of things having both kind of physical and non physical aspect if events right? The idea that the things that you can comprehend are the important things is probably is probably a fallacy, right? That the idea that because there could be many. There could be many important things in the you know, the and and the idea that all the. All the important ideas are expressed is probably wrong. You know is probably wrong. Let's say morally, but it's it's probably better. If we don't if we allow for the idea that maybe not all the most important ideas are expressed. And it it's seems to me that like what that requires is a new way of listening. You know, this is this is over thinking your spirituality podcast. So you're saying is listening to what people don't talk to you listening to and people don't talk to you or a sort of listening to a quality of presence listening to, you know, listening to the electric city in the air. Right. Like. Listening to. The sort of emotional experience that that people are going through. It's something that I think shrinks are sort of trained in explicitly how to kind of observe. Observe kind of non verbal process. You know, happening in inside a person's mind. And like, yeah. To to to be I I once told you about the rubric did ni- that that I heard of a two by two matrix of of what you know, what I know about you. Right. Right. Right. There's what you know about me. There's what that refers cash out for me against to. It's so imagine a two by two matrix like on one access. It's what you know. You know? Yes, or no. And on the other access. It's it's I know. Yes. Or no. I know I don't know. So and we're talking about we're talking about a person now. So like there is the you that you, and I both know that your self right? There's the you that, you know, and I don't know that's your sort of private self your inner experience we were talking about that a little bit. There's the you that I know that you don't know which are your blind spots. Right. And then there's there is a you that neither of us knows which is. A sense of mystery right now, I actually forget the original context in which I heard this the the idea this little rubric itself has survived sort of more than the point that whoever was originally trying to make with that. But that like. You know? I don't know. I think that like what if you are so strictly materialist? You. I think you lose out on a lot of the profundity of the experience in terms of comprehending, the loss in a, you know, big wildfire with loss of life and destruction of property and things like that or or a, you know, or a huge global traumatic cataclysm like the first World War. You know, if if it's just if it's all just molecules to you. I think you lose. Some some important aspect of that of what that is what it means. Right. Yeah. I can almost feel the pull of gravity from the quadrant. Where we both don't know to the quadrant. Where I know when you don't right. There's a person that doesn't know what's going on for them. They don't fully understand themselves because in this case because something really cataclysmic has happened or life something very dislocated. And it's almost it can be it can be kind of a precare unstable equilibrium of sort of believing that that's the situation that you're in because people want to resolve knowing and so instead, I will come up with an explanation for why I think you feel the way you feel which is rude, crepe, frankly. Although I do it all the time. It's rude. You feel the way you feel and maybe you don't understand it. But it's not for me to necessarily know to understand it either. I guess, you know, you ask me or your psychiatrist or something. I mean. Okay. How can you do? But if you're if you're like really doing that kind of maybe not psychiatry psychiatry's with drugs, right? So like if you're doing that kind of talk therapy that it takes a long time to get to that point where you know. Where shrink will make those kinds of suggestions to you. You know, right. It's not sort of off the off the bat, or at least, it it shouldn't be kinda have to get to know someone. You have to get to know someone very well. And I think there's some literature in that discipline about like, let about actually about the mystery or about the kind of intra sorry inter psychic process that, you know, happens in psychoanalysis, but the the the, yeah, you sort of want to sort of want to reduce it to something that you understand you want to think that because you've heard a lot a lot a lot a lot. You've heard everything, and you want to think that you've heard all the important things because the important things are the things that you've heard because of course, they are you've heard them. And that that like. You know, this is. I don't know this is a bit of a bit of a navel-gazing conversation. But as we used to say as the tagline of overthinking, if you get into the naval long enough, the naval starts gazing into you. That's been a long time set heard that saying. Those on the I think the maybe the second incarnation of our website. I mean, we've done we've done. I mean grizzled refers to gray hair, right, and the the meaning of that gray hair. That's one of those words that you think it means bedraggled or unkempt sort of right? Like, it doesn't mean bedraggled or unkempt. It means having grey hair, or, you know, grey facial hair or something like that. Right. Right. Right. Like the word swore. I believe also refers to that's the first skin right skin color. Not to like, not to like being unwashed graph. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. The the other word like that that I like is stentorian right, which means loud. But you know, it means loud, but it has a connotation of meaning like or a Taurel or bombast IQ or something like that as of voices stentorian voice, right? Declamatory, you know. And that's that's not it means means loud. Oh, here's another good one. This isn't nonplussed. Yes. Yes. Yes. Mean surprised? Not not unmoved as though, you know, as though any sort of strong reaction would be a plus, and he doesn't have any of the pluses, so your son. So your non-plussed, right? Like, for example. I was nonplussed when I got a mandatory evacuation. The other day. I was not plus to hear about the fact that you had to vacuum family out of the path of herbal fire. Right. And that's and that that doesn't mean unmoved. I I was I was moved literally and Pete was moved in his soul sip by those by those things like I I hope if nothing else I've been stentorian for you in this moment of need. Thank you. Yeah. It's it's I just one of all this the stress and things like this and stuff like this happens to you in life. You're you're gonna wind up grizzled, you know. Yeah. Or hirsute? I'm hirsute no matter what I try to. Well, thanks Pete for for having this conversation with me. I I meant to say at the beginning. Did we count the number of hands on this podcast? Oh, this is this is a story to hander. What a story gets a hell of a story, isn't it? Yeah. Conflagration? Yeah. Really literally. Well, thanks very much for and I hope everything works out for you guys. Stephanie. I hope everybody gets back home safe me too. Yeah. There are a lot of people. And you know, not just not just celebrities that the celebrity angle plays on the news. And so you hear a lot of that stuff. But the communities that are affected by at least by the Wolsey fire, which is the. Which is the the one that you know, I was evacuating was are not all fancy, folks. It's it's a lot of you know, a lot of people a lot of people would houses trying to trying to live their lives. Trying to outrun a thirty foot while flame. Anyway, I don't know. I feel like we need a happier note to to end on. Hey, we punched the Kaiser in the nose. I was going to suggest that we didn't start the fire. But it is in fact, always been burning since the world's been turning and then just start listing historical events, but maybe that would have been a little bit too verbose for the situation. Leonard Bernstein gets a whole measure of that song, which I've never understood. Just seems like of all the cultural figures anyway, thanks very much for listening. If you would like to leave some comments for us about this this you can do it by going to them page of over thinking, it finding the show notes for this episode and clicking through you'll find a comment form. We'll do some comments do some some user comments next user listener comments next week have been working in the digital space. Too long users. And and until then until we're back next week. Please visit us on the web at over thinking where we subject the popular culture to a level of scrutiny. It probably probably doesn't doesn't. What I don't have to say something, I could just be quiet. My business.

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An epic conversation with Madeline Miller

The Ezra Klein Show

1:21:59 hr | 3 months ago

An epic conversation with Madeline Miller

"Now more than ever An- especially when it comes to today's economy. It's important to operate using great principles bestselling author and investor rates. Allio is helping us do that. By releasing excerpts of his upcoming book the Changing World Order Drawing from research on the rise and decline of Empires and their reserve currencies dallaglio puts into perspective where we are and where we're going go to principals dot com or Dahlia's Lincoln page to read the series that's principles dot com when human beings are given ultimate privilege and ultimate power in less they actively fight against it and and it is possible to counteract it through mental work unless you actively fight against it. Your empathy immediately starts dropping. Because you start assuming that if I'm way up here I must have gotten here because I deserve it. Hello and welcome to the show on the box media podcast network. It has been a minute since I've been able to open one of these by saying this conversation is fun. This is a fun conversation but today I can. I reached out to Madeline Miller. Who's written some of my absolute favorite books of the past? Couple of years books. That have meant a lot to me and that have also been a bit of a respite in this period. She's the author of the Song of Achilles. Which is published in two thousand twelve and was a New York Times bestseller and won the Orange Prize for fiction than in two thousand nineteen she published which I just loved that book. It was an instant number one year times bestseller and won all kinds of awards. It's being adapted for HBO. But Miller is also a trained classicist. She was a teacher she directed Shakespeare plays to fascinating brilliant thinker and an incredibly personnel conversation with. And this is not a conversation where you need to read these books. It's a conversation about myth and fiction and the archetypes end stories that formed the basis for a lot of our culture and how we interact with them. But they're modern variants are and it's a great place to put your brain for a couple of minutes. That is not maybe where it's been so. I felt lucky to get the habit. I'm glad to get to bring it to you. As always my email is kind show at vox dot com again as recline show at. Vox Dot Com. Here is Madeline Miller. Madeline Miller will come to the but gust thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here so I think like any good myth. We should begin with your origin story. I've heard you talk about a teacher. Who took you aside in highschool and said that he could have you reading the Iliad in the original Greek in a year and thinking back to my own high school experience. I don't think most high schoolers would have found that to be an attractive offer. Why did you I had always been kind of a quirky? Is the Nice Way to put it kid who was interested in things that were you know. Oftentimes the feedback. I got from my peers. Is that those things. Were Super Boring but when I was a child I really fell in love with the Greek myths and I had taken Latin as soon as I take Latin and I absolutely loved it. There was something to me that was just really electric about knowing that I was listening to something or reading something that was so old that was carrying. You know these previous generations and their thoughts and their ideas in their stories to me and so when he said that I it was just like he was offering to give me the key to the secret world. He knows like here. Here's Narnia. Do you WANNA walk through. And so of course I said yes because to me it was like being given the keys to the kingdom so wait what was the original Latin. Not the original Greek well. He was my Latin teacher so I had already been studying Latin with him and then he went on to say you know I see. You're obsessed with this. How about how about we add Greek and the Nice thing is that if you already know Latin you sort of get Greek as like. I wouldn't say it's a free bonus but you get at least you know a good foothold in the world. Because yes there is a different alphabet but Latin is wonderful foundational language for learning ancient Greek. So if you know little Latin your your Greek is is Greek as much easier to learn. How many languages can you read Latin and Greek and a little bit of of Spanish? And if you've done translation work amidst all the classics work you've done? I'm I have done some for sort of graduate school exercises because I was very interested in the idea of translation along with adaptation so I took a bunch of courses at the graduate level in translation adaptation. And what I have come to believe. Is that translation is much much harder than writing novels and there is a real art to it. That is almost entirely a thankless art. Because what you are trying to do is by Dow chemical mysterious process. Bring this thing across the divide in a way that almost races yourself and the people who can do it I think I I am just in awe so I I have dabbled in it but I don't think it's something that I would ever do because I think it really. You need a very particular thing gift for it. This actually wasn't where I was. GonNa go at this putting Bullets talk about translation. From INEX- I'm fascinated by it because I don't understand it at all and you reviewed for the Washington Post the Emily Wilson Translation of the Odyssey which arrived to huge fanfare a couple years back and came up before and I think many people might have on the edge of their consciousness. That a big new translation of the Odyssey came out. Not really a sense of why that's important why they should care and also what would make transition different from another. Aren't they all supposed to be just finding the analogue of the word? In another language in our language you gave a great review of that talking about why you thought Eh. Somebody's taught this book often. It should be the standard like what are the kinds of decisions that made in that. That makes something like that. New Translation important and valuable Well first of all. I'm so thrilled. You're giving me the opportunity to talk about emily. Wilson's translation because I really think it is so extraordinary it is it is a true work of genius on a work of art and I think it is going to bring the Odyssey to so many new readers and I think she is just. She is a ferocious intellect As well as an artist so that combination is pretty much unbeatable and I think what makes translation so challenging. Is that it literally every word. You are making choices of nuance and you can make a very small choice. That tips the sentence one way or another. And then you multiply that over the course of the whole sentence and then you multiply that over the course of the. I mean with literally every word. I think you could probably spend days debating it and in fact Emily Wilson Talks about how the very first line of the Odyssey which is you know. She translates as tell me about a complicated man. Sometimes you'll hear it in more complicated ways for example. I think I think it's the fitzgerald that says Singing Me Muse. And threw me tell? The story of that. Man's skilled in all ways of contending and that word skilled in all ways of contending or complicated family Wilson's translation is this Paulie troposphere. Which means it's very complicated word in the Greek That polly is many like polygon. And the trump hosts means turning and so the man of many turnings is the way it often gets translated But it it implies men of many turnings in sort of two senses one. It means that Odysseus has a lot of resources. He has the ability to kind of tackle things in a lot of different ways. And he's a lot of different gifts and the ability to improvise and poetry Can also imply sort of sense. That he's been turned around himself by the fates on that he's been kind of tossed and has been world across the globe which at the beginning of the Odyssey he has. And so. It's a very complicated word and Emily Wilson has talked about how she spent days trying to figure out. What is the right word for that in English? Because there isn't an exact analogue complicated. She was concerned was possibly to interior for what it means that that for us. Complicated implies the sort of psychological depth complexity nuttiness possibly self-contradictory all of which absolutely describe Odysseus. But she's right that that interior is not really there in the Greek word but she eventually decided on it for this amazing reason. She felt like it was complicated. Be Sort of implied that depth of resources but also because she was looking for word that had to do with turning or bending and plaque in complicated is from the Latin word for for folding and so she liked the idea that like folding turning was kind of in the word even though it was in the Latin root as opposed to the Greek route so I mean that was one word in the whole thing and she put that much thought into it and in trying to get something that that would be right so that is a very long answer but the other thing that I think you have to think about is that you are always going to be making choices about what you are prioritizing in translation. So you know you can prioritize like trying to get as close to the literal Greek meaning as possible and I think maybe fitzgerald was taking a stab at that with skilled in all ways of contending. But that doesn't exactly flow tripping off the tongue and so what he sacrificing he sacrificing speed and one of the things that homer has in the original. Is this incredible forward motion. You know it's really exciting exciting. Read and it's exciting to listen to it and Emily Wilson. I think really wanted to keep that speed that forced that galloping pace that homer has and so for her. She really wanted to make sure that her words were not. You know that she wasn't getting the translational bloat often happens. That is remarkable to me that those two percentages are from the same book. Yeah are translations of the same book. Yeah I mean I would be stopped cold by that Fitzgerald translation and you know no offensive fitzgerald but I think a lot of people have been stopped by it. What makes e Odyssey worth reading? Today I mean a deceased as a character in both of your books and I actually want to ask you about him. But what is it about that book given that we can read all this current and modern literature? That would be your cell to it. If you're somebody listening is thinking. Should I pick up that Emily Wilson translation when I could read anything by something written by homer cover many years ago? I think that for me. What draws me to these stories is just how incredibly fresh and vibrant they still feel that you know. Technology has changed and culture has changed but human beings and the things that we struggle with and think about and the things that we love in fear are all still with us and so when I look at the Odyssey I sort of see it at one level as a the story of an exhausted war veteran who is desperate to get home to his family and when he finally gets home to his family he discovers that it's much harder to reenter his old life than he thought it would be and I think that's the story that can echo down through the generations but I think we can even go a step further out than that and say this is a story about longing for home and the Greek word for for homecoming which is what Odysseus yearns fourth for. The whole Odyssey is Nas does a minutes where we get the English word nostalgia on sort of the pain of wanting that homecoming that. Pang you feel when you when you miss home. And I think we've all felt that way we've all had those moments where we feel lost on the waves and surrounded by monsters and wishing for safe harbor so for me. I just see so many many kind of universal human experiences and at the same time. I think it's just it's A. It's an incredibly engaging story. They're monsters in which is who turn men into pigs and all kinds of exciting things so it's it's wise. It's exciting and it's you know speaks down through the centuries so I looked at knossos nostalgia connection because when I it includes dimension of illusion you're nostalgic for something that isn't really there Otherwise you would just be remembering it and something. I always find very affecting about the story. Is that homecoming isn't great. That he spends all these years trying to get home and then there I don't want to. It feels weird to say. I don't want a like maybe one of the oldest that Canon. But there's like the the first end of it and it later a second that is in its ways even more tragic and speaks more to he spent all your life or so much time trying to achieve this one thing and you think when you have you'll be happy and then the person you became to achieve it means you're a person who can no longer be happy with right you you become so good at striving the once you have achieved your goal. You can't stop strivings. He just become more and more dissatisfied and that bit of tragedy has always struck me as very deeply wise. And you pull that in T- into circuit and I'm just curious how you think about that. What you take from that. Yes I mean I think I think absolutely that was beautifully. Said that you know a so I am going to get into Odyssey spoilers hair as you say it's always a little you know. Three thousand years old doesn't count but Odysseus comes home and he. I think experiences both this sort of rush of being home but also there's alien nation and dislocation. I mean I always think about how sad it is that. He misses his sons entire childhood and young adulthood. You know when he leaves. His son is an infant year-old. Maybe and when he comes back he's twenty one and he's missed out on all those years of his wife. Penelope and their marriage and their home he. His mother has died while he was away on. His father has gotten quite old and infirm while he was away and and you know what it means to be so alienated here you are. You're back with the people you love. But but can you connect with them. Is it possible? And then of course what happens is as you say. You know in becoming this survivor. This best of the Greeks the man who was the architect of the fall of troy who built the Trojan horse that finally cracked the city and was called best of the Greeks and given the armor of Achilles now that Achilles with dead who was honored and treated as this as this almost God on earth and then thrown from that into these years of suffering and then brought home again. I mean the I think it it makes sense to me why he kind of loses it at the end because that is the end so he has this wonderful reunion with his wife but then in order to have that reunion with his wife he has to slaughter all the men who have been hanging out in his house trying to get his wife to marry them saying. Odysseus has never coming home. Come on give up Mary one of US instead so he slaughters all of them. Which in the world of Greek mythology kind of. I hate to say this but make sense you know. They have been abusing his hospitality. They were plotting to kill his son. They were harassing his wife. And so you know he comes home and he kinda cleans house but then their families show up at the very end of the Odyssey. Anees say you just killed all our children and his responses to start killing them to and at that? Moment Athena comes down and you get kind of. The classic. Deo Sardinia X. Makina Where she says okay enough slaughter and it leaves the the reader or the listener with this amazing moment of disquiet. Where what would have happened? If Athena didn't come what would have happened and what happens after when Athena goes away again. Do you want to talk about that because it is something that you build on her but comes from a different book than the Odyssey. This sort of second ending of it that I found incredibly affecting which you can tell if you don't want do that spoiler but but if you do I'd love to hear you Taliban talk about sure sure so I'm in looking at Sir c I was using kind of four basic myths as pillars. Obviously the Odyssey was one of them. One was another myth from avid There was a myth where she encounters her niece media that came from the by Abalone Roads but then there was this fourth myth that I used for the end of the novel. And what's interesting about? This myth is that we have it only the barest of bones that the Iliad and the Odyssey were the two most famous of the Internet epochs of the ancient Greek epics. And they're the ones that have survived. We know that there were many many others. We have summaries of them. We have references to them. Sometimes we have lines from them but one of these lost epics was called the telephony and the telephony was about surtees son with Odysseus that went deceased leaves her island. This is not referenced in the Odyssey at all But when deciduous leaves her island? She's pregnant she has a son. She raises him on her magical island of calls him legacy and when he comes of age he goes looking for his father and He heads to Ithaca some stuff happens. I'm going to be a little vague. And this son ends up bringing penelope under deceased son with his wife penelope dilemmas back to servcies island and so that was a key piece of the novel for me. I'm not so much because of Odysseus. But because penelope the brilliant wife the patient wife finally gets to meet Sir C and so she gets to meet her and I see these as two of the most complicated intelligent interesting women and I was so excited to get them in a room together but What that myth also alludes to win some other myths about Odysseus is that he sort of goes off in remarries. There's a myth where he remarries. There's a myth where he turned sort of violent and paranoid and I. I was really interested in that. And why psychologically? That would happen because for me. The core of these. Not these might. Novels is always to look at these myths from a psychological angle. So I was sort of thinking about odysseus from from two different perspectives. That moment I was thinking about first of all classic. Ptsd the fact that you come home after having lived this incredibly adrenaline rush terrifying life. And can you just you know herd goats for the rest of your life as this minor king? Who Doesn't get to? Do ANYTHING EXCITING. I think for someone like Odysseus who's clearly an adrenaline junkie. That would be incredibly difficult and then on on top of I think you have the fact that Odysseus was really good at what he did and he in fact he was the best at what he did and he was so honored by the Greeks and again you know. Can you just go home and say okay? Now I've lived my whole life filled with gods and monsters and always seeking something new. Can I just go home and put on my old life and so I? I imagine that there would be both a trauma but also sort of a natural psychological sense of. I'm bored and that Odysseus would not be able to find fulfilment there at home the way that say you know penelope was kind of forced to that. He's just the type of personality that would always need to be kind of restlessly seeking more fame more interesting things more knowledge. And there's actually in the cribbing a little bit from Tennyson Poem Ulysses which I really love and it's very inspiring. Prominent ends very has a number of very quotable Parson it. It has the part about drinking life to lease it. Sort of spoken by aged Odysseus Ulysses From name an age deceased. Who is saying? You know I've come home to Ithaca and I've gotten bored. I want to go back out and ride the waves again. And it's it's it's kind of about the potential for constant lifelong learning about exploration the desire for the human spirit to just keep going and all of that is wonderful but also. There's this sort of feeling that hangs to the pond on my gosh like what a difficult person to live with I wanNA boldly generalized some of the the storytelling differences. That have happened from there to here because one that you're getting at here when I think of the stories we are told in our culture the Modal Story. If you go to movies say ended obviously doesn't describe everything is you want something. And what if you got it? Wouldn't that be great and Greek stories? Are you want something and what if you got it but if you really got it good and hard? And what if that were terrible and there's something really interesting in the difference between a culture that imagines that achieving what we believe we want will be the path to happiness. I always watch romantic comedies. And think after these two very unlikely characters get together. Well how are things going to be in five years when it's no longer exciting? Yes and in the Greek myths. It's always like that right. You you get what you want and then you know you end up looking at yourself in a pond for the rest of the or whatever it might be like what do you think is the difference between a culture that chooses that format for storytelling versus culture. Like ours chooses this much. More goal oriented Format for storytelling. I'm I mean. I think you're absolutely right in one of the things that I would say about Greek mythology that so interesting is just how horrible. But God's are that the gods are really not exemplars. You know you you might have fired. Have the kind of power that they have. But for the most part they aren't virtuous their petty and selfish the fact that they have achieved this ideal situation of having all the power. Eternal Life The ability to fill every woman every desire has not made them could people if anything it has done the opposite and. I think it's really interesting that that the Greeks were were so aware of that and it isn't that you know. Sometimes they would have sort of idealized versions of the Gods. You know you would worship Zeus the father and hopefully this would be the ideal positive father but in their stories in homer and in so many myths gods are basically way worse than than humans and mortals are. And so. That was something that I really wanted to explore in this idea of. When you do get everything you want when you do have absolutely everything. It doesn't make you a good person. Actually it makes you kinda terrible person. And what's interesting about this so I have this? Interest in psychology is it. Psychological studies have proved that that is in fact correct that when human beings are given ultimate privilege and ultimate power in less they actively fight against it and it is possible to counteract it through sort of mental work unless you actively fight against a your empathy immediately starts dropping because you start assuming that if I'm way appear I must have gotten here because I deserve it and therefore everybody who's down there they don't deserve it and so I'm better than they are and therefore I can treat them terribly if I want to. Because they're there because they have you know they're not as as good as I am and I think it's so interesting that the human brain goes there and that the Greeks knew that they knew that and and they sort of manifested that in their mythology. I luckily connected that to the American individuals. Some are called the rationalizations of American individualism. And I wonder if you think it disciplines society to have its foundational and fundamental stories. Be about the way both power and achievement can twist you as opposed to having its foundational stories be about the way the attainment of power and achievement will redeem you. Yeah it's an incredibly important story to to acknowledge I think it's a damaging myth to assume that that kind of power in achievement will not affect you because we know from psychology that it does and one of the the other authors that I love. I'm this is my other sort of thing that I study and work on his. I'm a theater director for Shakespeare and Shakespeare was so interested in that idea of. Can you be a good leader? And a good person and he looked at it over dozens of plays he was constantly interested in in what makes a good leader. What makes someone in power be able to be good? And can you be moral and an effective leader at the same time? One of the place where he looked at this was king. Lear and King Lear is the classic example of someone. Who's been acting like a Greek? God No one has told King Lear no for eighty years and he's just been doing whatever he wanted and his servants and his counselors have all said. Yes yes. You'RE AMAZING. Yes everything you say is is terrific and the first time someone says no to him. He has this complete meltdown. And what I like about lear is that he's able to kind of come back from that that he reconnects with his humility and his humanity and by the end of the story he's able to realize I screwed up. I surrounded myself with flatterers. I thought everything I did was right. I wasn't acting with empathy toward my subjects. And you know. And he's able to kind of come back to his humanity so even though King. Lear is a crushing tragedy. I actually feel that. It's hopeful for the human spirit that you know even when we stray too far in that direction. If we want to come back we can come back. Most of us have a few bad decisions. 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Give your contribution will help keep making podcast. That people need to understand and navigate the curves crisis at a volume that matches what it actually requires of course part of boxes part of this effort and your contribution will help support us on the show to keep doing the work. We're doing which hopefully is bringing some value to you. You can contribute by going to. Vox Dot com slash. Contributions to box are not tax deductible. Thank you for listening and thank you for helping to support our work. Who is your favorite major Greek? God Oh good question you could define favorite however you want whatever. Oh Gosh I mean when I was a kid I would definitely have set Athena. I mean who doesn't Love Athena Right? She's the smart one. It's the same reason why everyone loves her deceased you have to love the Spartan run. I loved that she was. You know so clever. In that she was able to really hold her own and sort of make people have to have to bend to her will and of course she was a powerful woman which was really nice but as I have grown up I find Athena As a figure much more problematic that oftentimes she is brutal to other women and that the ancient Greeks actually saw her as something a little closer to non binary she was born from Zeus head and so therefore she was this idea that she she had a mother but her mother was sort of expunged from her birth. It was only her father who who birthed her into the world so this she was sort of set in this special category so although I still really love Athena in many ways I think if I had to choose I might. I might have to go with with artists. I mean I think being able to run through the woods all the time in and you know be with the animals. All the time would be pretty great. Tell people more about Artemis. Because she's one so when I was young I should say this is part of my while of your book so much. I was just an absolute Greek mythology obsessive for years like I see like a kid got every book from the library in it new like every month by heart. It's been a while since I've been as been them but Greek mythology just adored and so I think people know that kind of Zeus and Athena and maybe dyonissis but but Artemis is less well-known. Yeah so she is is the twin sister of Apollo and they're very much associated with the Sun Apollo and the Moon Artemis. She has things interesting associations as well with sort of sometimes she is another face of the goddess. Heck ads are Heke the goddess of witchcraft. And Magic. So she's interesting because she's associated with the moon they're sort of all these kind of witchcraft associations that that sneak into her so I like that sort of hidden side of her. She's the goddess of the hunt. She is another one of the Virgin goddesses the goddesses who who go to zoos and say I'm never marrying deal with it. And so she sort of looks her life completely under her own agency. I like the fact that she is also has this whole sort of band of other of Nymphs and women that she takes under her wing and they all sort of run through the forest together hunting animals. She is Sometimes included in this category of goddess called the Putney Faron which in Greek means the the mistress of the beasts Who has connections to the Animal? World and oftentimes is depicted with an animal by their side. And so I have always loved the mistress of the beast. Kind of trope. Archetype so all any goddess who who fits there. I have a have a preference for and speaking of sixty is also kind of in that like she's clearly derived from that type of goddess the mistress of the beasts as well so all those things make me like Artemis. She is incredibly pitiless if you make her angry. The Classic Artists Myth is that she is bathing naked in a moonlit pool and one hundred comes by and he happens to see her. It doesn't matter that he didn't mean to see her. It doesn't matter that he's immediately. Sorry she turns him into a deer and has him torn apart by his own hunting dogs so she was not the most Mercer Merciful Goddess. I will say although not many of them are all that I mean. She's right in. She's right in the middle there. What thing about that in about sort of her methology but the broader cosmos is that. There's a tension or strangeness. I think particularly Greek mythology. But not only where you have these very powerful women figures Athena and Artemis and and so on and yet you read the stories and it is this unrelenting festival of rape and trickery and Zeus constantly turning into something to have sex with somebody and deep I don't mean bondage in the DSM sense but in the in the slavery sense. And I'm curious how you think about that tension between the way that on the one on the one hand there were the female gods and female power in this but on the other if you if you read the stories you know women are very often They're just plot points You Know Helen and troy and so on and there's just a tremendous amount of violence towards them. Yeah I mean it was something that I have been by since I first encountered them and I think in some ways. It's amazing that we teach these myths to children because they are full of the most horrific cruelty and full of sexual assault and rape and slavery. And really you know horrific treatment of women and others and so I I do think it is. It is interesting that there was not a complete suppression of women that these ideas of powerful women existed in the mythology. I mean I always think about Hera when I think about some of the feelings about women in in Greek mythology because of course Hera is may be. I mean when you read the mythologies accuser like hairier so annoying hair is constantly jealous of Zeus. It's like haven't you learned by now? Hera that he's always GonNa Cheat on you. Stop being surprised by this and you know then Hera lashes out in almost invariably punishes the women as opposed to her husband or if the women have a child she punishes the child as in the case of Hercules. Hercules is a son of Zeus by by another woman in so she goes after Hercules. And that's why he has to perform the laborers and all of that and so so she's kind of the the classic Nagging Harpies shrew wife figure and I think it's amazing that that that was their idea of the coin. Gods the most powerful goddess was totally unlikeable. One of the things that I I'm sort of waiting for I hope someone will write a really great. Hera novel where they completely find a way to push back against that very sexist portrait of her and allow her to have some agency so I hope someone if someone out there is listening and you want to write the great heroin novel. Please do it because I think she. She needs to be brought back from from her portrait. But to get to get back to what you said. I think it is very interesting. The the sort of tension between the fact that women had such limited power and yet there were these goddesses. What attracted you to I loved the fact that was one of the very few women in Greek mythology who wields power and is not punished for it by the end of her story. I loved the fact that I saw her as an artist that she is you know. She is the goddess but her power doesn't actually come from being a goddess. It comes from her. Witchcraft and witchcraft is totally distinct from divine power in the ancient way of thinking. Witchcraft is something that you do. And it comes out of experience and knowledge and skill and hardwork and dedication and trial and error. And so for me. That's that's an art and I love that. That was the source of power. I love the fact that she is the first witch in what gets called Western literature. So she she's born a lesser lesser goddess. I mean if you thought the worst thing to be Is to be one of these lesser goddesses because you are constantly being treated as you know upon by the greater gods or as prey by both gods and humans. So she's born into this position where she's one of these lesser goddesses who has very little power control of her life and she decides to literally inventor on power so that was really interesting to me she says I can't. I can't work within the system. I have to go outside the system and I liked. How mysterious she was in the same in some ways. I didn't like in some ways. I was very disappointed. By how sort of flat and unexplored her character is. But I think that that created an opportunity to really dig in Inter Psychology. You know why. How'd you start turning people into pigs? And why did you start doing it? I want to go back to it but I want to pick up on. Somebody said about Lesser Gods. Because Pretty. From if you're looking back from current monotheism where there is one God and it is perfect and unknowable mysterious and and and so on you back here and it has always struck me as like a Soviet bureaucracy where you have somebody up on the top and it would see if you're like a peasant which is to say a human that it'd be great to be in the Communist Party but if you're a low level communist functionary it may not be great. Actually give me seem good and there are some perks for sure but you are just high enough to be in the like the cutting zone but not high enough. Like what do you think the Greeks understood and particularly in their in their mythos just about hierarchy and bureaucracy and the cruelty of it. Yeah well I I would first of all say that. I think it's interesting that you used on a governmental structure for for an analog there because or political structure because that jump of sort of seeing the gods as you know metaphors for human power structures was absolutely present in the ancient world. I'm and it was something that Virgil I think. Is You know. It's not quite explicit. But it's it's very clearly in virgils. Aeneid that when he is talking about God's he's making analogies to type of power that that people are on earth can have so. I think that that idea that you brought up was was sort of you. Know either consciously or unconsciously depending on who was interacting with. It was absolutely there in how you know. It's kind of like looking at organizational politics in how how group dynamics work so on that level. I think there's there's a lot of psychological acuity to to the way they described that but yeah I I mean I think it's so again so interesting. That oftentimes being a god in the Greek myths is so unappealing in some ways. I think this is why Greek philosophy was such a powerful part of life. You know. Is that the gods. Were there to explain why the world was so capricious and unpredictable. And why you couldn't sort of you know you. Your ship might get smashed. Who knew why well you had not done the right thing or maybe your father had not done the right thing or maybe his father had not done. The right thing for Poseidon. Poseidon been waiting all this time to get you. You know that. The gods sort of spoke to this chaotic natural world around them but then Greek philosophy came in to kind of fill that you know to fill the the desire to to understand the world and to really try and systematize the world you know when we think of philosophy today. We think of people arguing over very abstract theories but the Greek philosophers were natural scientists. So they were. You know cataloging. The creatures they saw around them on. They were discussing every aspect of the natural world. They were they. Were you know physical scientists as well as sort of talking about a bad idea so I think I think in some ways because of the gods system they have. We got philosophy. I got such a wonderful legacy for to have something I guess. I wonder if it's related to this actually Whereas about to go was to get your thoughts on this transition we made from a world in which the gods are like us but more so long to a world in which the god is unlike us but more so that The the the foundational characteristic of God is that you cannot truly understand like at like the the mine repels but I also wonder then how much that affected the way worshippers acted because as you say. There was very very close connection between early philosophy and natural science and religion and it was true for some period at least in Christianity. I'm you can find great experiments being done by monks and others but but over time you begin to see the split open up and I wonder if some of the split doesn't have to do with the idea of God being unknowable. And they're being something within Within creation that is perfect and beyond human capacity to understand whereas the gods are just are very knowable and they're in fact expressions of human frailty and failing. Maybe it doesn't feel like you have to have that divide because to understand the gods and understand what they've created is not itself a is Nelson kind of claim of arrogance I think there was a little bit of a sense of unknown ability about the the Greek gods because you could never anticipate how they might react to something you know would. Would they react as kind merciful benevolent version of themselves for would they react so there was this sort of mystery that you know you could never get to the bottom of of of a particular? God but I think that what started to happen. Is this thing that I found very interesting when I studied. It is the idea of the of the mystery cult. So originally you know you have all these gods and people might have particular associations or attachments to particular gods but but you were supposed to be kind of sacrificing to to everybody in covering all your bases than at the end of life. You go down into this underworld and if your Achilles Helen you might get to walk in the you know the Isles of the blessed. I'm you might get to go to the elision fields and if you were really really terrible you might end up down in Charteris but basically everybody. Almost everybody ended up in. Just the underworld which was not a particularly pleasant place to be and so there came about this idea of mystery. Cults so mystery cults were where you dedicated yourself to a particular deity. There was one deity that was your special deity. You were still allowed to worship other deities. It wasn't monotheism but you had a special relationship with that deity worshiped them and you were initiated into into their rights. That then you would be taken care of in the afterlife and so I think it's interesting that there was this sort of hole in the way people were thinking about life and death. Where while that afterlife is not that appealing? Oh but if I if I behave well and I do all my right things with this one deity. Then they'll take me to a special place in the afterlife. They'll look out for me extra so mystery cults. Were kind of this interesting bridge to monotheism that I always find a wonderful part of ancient history. Why do we call the mystery cults? It sounds like a loyalty colt or maybe just a Colt Colt. What is mysterious about them? Yes so so it means it comes from the word for for initiate meaning that you had to enter the cult through some kind of special ritual to belong to it in some of these rituals. What's interesting is that a lot of these rituals are still secret that the the cult members kept the secret of what the ritual was like some of them. We know a little bit more about there was one initiation Sibley where if you were male you would and you were going to become one of her high priests. You could belong to the cult not do this as a male but if you wanted to become one of siblings high priests the initiation rite ended with castrating yourself. So some of them were in the. I'm GonNa take a hard pivot participation here. Are you a Comic Book Fan? It'll I you know I did not grow up reading comic books at all. I think the first sort of graphic novel that I read in my life. Actually I guess occasionally in the supermarket line. I would read Archie comics but that was as close as I got and then the next thing I read was mouse and I absolutely loved mouse and my mind was completely blown by it and so now I read idea some graphic novel side. I Love Fun home. And but I didn't grow up reading. The marvel comics are are the DC comics will. This could be a harder line of questioning because they've become so dominant in our culture. I'm always fascinated by the question of whether or not they represent the myths and mythological figures of our age because they have a lot in common and in some cases a quite literally. There's a huge amount of cross pollination between Greek and norse mythology and both DC and Marvel Universe's aries is a figure in both of them. Hercules is figuring both of them Zeus in both of them thor and Marvel And it kind of goes on like that. Yes I mean I think I think you're absolutely right. And they represent are yearning I think towards the mythic and are you know I think human beings love ethic. We love huge stories with larger than life characters. Who have huge flaws and huge strength? And Titanic Beings meeting each other in battle. Nemeses I mean all of these things are are really honored. Exciting thrilling stories and so I think marvel another comic book. Series are really speaking to that end. And as you say self-consciously harvesting from that tradition and then kind of bringing it into into the modern world. I always think it's so funny how I growing up. I didn't understand that wonder woman is situated so firmly in the world of Greek mythology Sursee is actually one of her nemeses in in some of the original storylines I think. Finally I just heard from from someone. That in a new reboot of wonder woman Sir. She is no longer going to be so villainous. So that's nice to hear I. I like. They're coming in running that running that information by beforehand. Oh No it was not. I didn't hear from I heard from I think a comic Book Fan. Not from yet know. Dc is not getting in touch with me as the head of the SOCI- mystery cool. So what are the things that is so striking to be about comic books? Which does hearken back to kick. It seems in many ways to be something that got lost for a while and now is making a comeback. Is this idea of just being able to retell the same myth over and over again but just change it? And the the flexibility they have it has given them this interesting power. Where you can reboot spiderman over and over and over again amid somebody's dude very self consciously. I don't know if You have seen the spiders movie. Which is the great saying that the human race is accomplished a couple of years. But it has this very self conscious of the multi-diverse and you know okay fine. We're going to tell the story again. And again and again and again and that power to take a basically familiar figure and continuously reshape them for what society needs to hear or explore right now to kind of combine the familiar with the new so the new becomes a little bit easier to access. Seems very powerful. I think people look right now at the profusion of sequels as a sign of as my friend rush southwards decadence. And I'm there. I'm not saying it's not something to that but at the same time the idea that you would use the same figures to tell new stories has been around a long time and it's not necessarily just a sign of cultural exhaustion. It might also be a sign that we need some amount of familiarity to deal with how difficult the new is to explore right now. Yes I totally agree And I you know while I think that at times you know an endless rebooting something can be just a you know a cash. Grab or creative exhaustion. I do think it's possible for it to be in that direction but I I think that much more. Is this sort of old human impulse that we have to to want to see the things we love in in a new way to have that exciting moment where something we love already is made new again. I mean is there anything better than that than seeing I think about it in terms of theater? I have seen all of Shakespeare's plays. I've read them all worked with them. I've directed most of them and yet every time I see production that makes me see something new in the play. I think. Oh this is so great you know. This director has brought something new that I hadn't seen before they they've revealed something illuminated something and so I think I think that impulses just so so old and and you know as soon as homer existed. As soon as the Iliad the Odyssey were out their stories. They were being told and retold and reworked and changed and shifted. And you know. There's so many different myths about Achilles that when I wrote the song of Achilles which is about the life of Achilles I couldn't possibly use them all because they're they're so many often contradictory And they're all exploring different aspects of his story and they all have him making different choices and doing different things and I so. I think that impulse to kind of re boot is absolutely present in the ancient Greek worlds. You know but except they didn't. They didn't think of it that way. Just thought if it is you know will hear Ave doing doing achilles Here's odds version of the Trojan war. Here's virgils version of the Trojan war. And that was considered totally expected that these stories will get retold that there was no definitive version and that you would want to see them really works than have new pieces brought into them. So I love great adaptations and great reboots. And I think that when they're good they are just so good. How did you develop the courage or the belief for the intention to to do but if your own I mean as a few. I believe he started song. Kelly's when you're pretty young right a couple years after college or if I referred your backfield this right and it is already a tremendous leap of faith to say I'm GonNa Create a book right. I mean I am terrified. I would never read fiction book on and nobody would read it if I did. Because that'd be terrible but then then also say I'm GonNa take one of the most famous books in human history and put my own spin on it right like crack knuckles and like let's rewrite the cannon like that's an even larger level of Ambition and I'm curious how it became yours and wikileaks is where you started to make us a more complicated triple question because he kind of sock so first of all. I think the the the concept. You're getting at which I was well. Aware of at the time is the concept of hubris. You know that the Greeks definitely believed that this overweening pride would result in swift punishment with a lightning bolt from above. And I definitely worried about that lightning bolt and I think that the answer to how I had the guts to do that is that I did it completely in secret so I didn't tell my classics professors that I was working on it and I didn't tell my peers that I was working on it and it was something that I did feeling completely illicit and completely blasphemous. And so you know like as if the police were gonNA come in arrest me and take away the classics police. But at the same time I had this drive to say something that I felt like I had. You know there's this sort of truism about writing which is right the book that you want to read and I felt that there was this thing that wasn't being said about Achilles and his relationship troch lists and them being lovers did. I hadn't seen the way I wanted to see it. And so I at the same time had this impulsivity while I don't see this and I feel like it should be in the world so I guess I have to do it and basically what I the way I talked myself through it as I told myself I didn't have to tell anyone and if it was terrible it would just be for me and it would never go anywhere and I really I was. I was very very worried about it and at the same time I couldn't stop it was with me. It was sort of constantly turning over in my brain and and at some point it kind of felt like if I gave up I would be giving up on the characters and I would be giving up on putting out this love story between the two of them in the world and so oftentimes I feel when I look back on both the beginning of sunk as inserts the I kind of feel like I started writing out of rage and I think it was my rage that the interpretation of Achilles patrollers as lovers which was well established as possible interpretation in the ancient world had been covered over put in the closets. Ignored was not was not being talked about and I can remember in high school reading the Iliad and thinking fit like. There's something missing here that I'm not getting and then sort of realizing. Oh my gosh this makes much more sense when we think about Achilles in patroclos being you know in in love with each other now I don't think you have to interpret it that way. I don't think that that homer demands that you interpret it that way I think there are other possible interpretations but I felt like this interpretation had dropped out so I feel like my rage at wanting to see this in the world and feeling angry that had been taken out of the tradition was to take me through those feelings of blasphemy as well. I think from where we sit now. Where Song Kelly's is a beautiful book? It was a huge bestseller. And you know everything about it is great that makes a lot of sense but but what given the whole range of characters and bit characters and forgotten stories that you could pull from in a way servcies easy for me to see. She says she's very skipped over. Fascinating complex character I of the witches antagonised and then also a hero and away wise canny all of it and Achilles as I mentioned is my Learned piece sucks is not a character that I would have expected to pull somebody like that right and pretty to pull somebody into sort of rewriting the missile. Why him why everybody who ran across in your studies classics. What what about him? In that myth made it feel like of all the things that needed to be restored to the cannon or explored in the Canon. It was him. I think there were two different things so one was. I was pulled into the mystery of what happens to him. When huge ancient myths spoiler Patroclos is killed in the Trojan war? And oh I'm sorry. So you know his companion patroclos dies and up to that point in the Iliad. Achilles has been acting like a real pill I will definitely admit. And he's been saying you know. I refuse to fight for the Greek someone to teach them a lesson. They're gonNA see would want. It's like you can't kick around Achilles anymore. And he gets his mom to talk to zoos to make the trojans start winning so the Greeks all start dying in say please. Achilles he says No. Keep suffering. Not until Agamemnon. Personally apologizes to me for one second to say. It is literally part of the Achilles mythology that the greatest warrior in Greek history gets mad and calls his mom. What I say Achilles sucks it's a. It's a strange myth. If you step back from it exactly he does not have been. That happens right in the first book is that he he stomps out. Of A fight with Agamemnon. Anti goes to the ocean and he calls his mom and he cries to his mom. And he's like mom they're being mean to me. Do something it is. It's amazing it's amazing But what I found so sympathetic in him is was how how young he is at that moment that he is. He's much younger than everybody else there. He's much younger than Agamemnon. Much younger than Odysseus. You know he's kind of a half generation to generation below them and that he is there voluntarily everyone else's bound by oath that they swore to protect Helena Manila's relationship but he's just there for the for the playoffs for the glory and that he is there also he has gone to war knowing that he is never coming home that he is given a choice. You can live long happy life and no one will ever remember your name. You can die young and be famous forever so he goes to troy knowing that he will never see his father again will never come home again. He is traded. He has given up everything else for his reputation that he will not even get to enjoy really. Because it's GonNa be a reputation after he's dead. And so that to me I found extremely compelling and I really read the Iliad as the story of him having to live with that choice that he has made that choice. I have sacrificed literally everything else for my reputation and now I have to live with that. And what happens when someone attacks my reputation which is what happens. In the first scene of of the Iliad agamemnon taxes reputation by taking away his war prize and under those circumstances Achilles sort of has to go nuclear. He has to hit the button. And Say I never fighting for you again. I'M GONNA go get my mom to do something bad to you and you know. I'M GONNA punish you to the end. Because that's his reputation is all he has left so I found him sort of sympathetic. Once I was thinking about you know. He knows he's not coming home. This is it this is all he has. I found that very moving and at the same time if I were to name like the worst person the Iliad agamemnon. Wins Hands Down and speaking of our current situation. The ILIAD begins with the plague. And the begins with plague because Agamemnon has taken as a war prize the daughter of a priest of Apollo the priests of Apollo shows up to ask for his daughter. Back IN HE OFFERS AGAMEMNON. Fair ransom now when someone offers you fair ransom in the ancient world. You're supposed to give back whatever the thing is but I commend. Not only does not give the girl back but he insults the priest and sends him away with sort of harsh words and threats so the priest. Of course this is not very smart on Agamemnon. Part goes to the God Apollo and says punish the Greeks so apollo some down a plague for nine days. People die all across the Greek army. The fires burning. The corpses are burning. Constantly an Agamemnon. Says Nothing and does nothing. Even though everybody knows who's faulted as he does nothing and finally Achilles says okay we gotta get everybody. Together if Agamemnon won't act I will act and you get everybody together and he has the priests say. Hey what do you think's going on priests? Could it be that someone offended God and the priests yes? Of course. The Second Amendment and Agamemnon blows up at Achilles for embarrassing him in front of everybody even though it was completely his fault so that also I think is is sympathetic to Achilles and by the way I'm not a stating parallels but the ancients had a saying nothing new under the Sun yes there is a very Greek dimension to some of the figures on the national stage right now? Let me put it that way. That is a good way to put it. Well I will just transition back to why I think that makes Achilles likable. That in this moment he stands up to the bully. He stands up to the bully who is causing people to die. And that's why agamemnon attacks him so he puts himself out there to try and save the Greek army and the responses that he gets attacked and that kind of kicks off the Iliad so I feel like actually he's acting pretty admirably there and the other thing. I love about Achilles. Is this beautiful line. He has in the elite where he says. I hate like the gates of death. The man who says one thing and hides another in his heart and I love this idea that Achilles is just this aunt he's honest that's it's both his strength and his fault you know there's so many times in the. Iliad where you wish you could say the Achilles like buddy like just take it down one notch like you could just be a little more diplomatic. Be Really Life would be easier for you but he can't do that. He's one of these people who sort of feels and speaks and I love that that makes him such a wonderful foil for does IUS Between the Iliad and the Odyssey we have these two men who are so opposite from each other in so many ways you know Achilles. The young idealistic Brash honest proud warrior and then odysseus the liar. The politician the manipulator. I think it's interesting that they're they're so they're so different. And I I loved that part that wonderfully Florida flawed part of Achilles. Where he speaks he speaks the truth even when it gets him in trouble. What in the Greek candid is the story or the figure that feels most trump est to you who is such a good question. I mean I think I might have to go cash it sit there so many contenders but I think I think I might have to go with with right. Now unsealing agamemnon. You know I might have a different answer another day but right. Now I'm feeling Agamemnon Agamemnon. Always acts in with his self interest in mind in fact. What's interesting is that some etymological scholars believed that the term Agamemnon Non means kind of like hanging back. And there's this idea that he. He was described as being good at throwing spears. Which is that's a nice nice compliment for somebody. But then there's this idea that if you're throwing spears it's 'cause your way way back from where the battle is and you're you know you're the back of the line. Okay yes you can throw your spirit over fifty men but that means that you're you know not not in the front line at all. I'm so agamemnon. Kind of gets it at every level in the ancient literature. He's selfish. He's Cowardly he's you know lashes out. He's defensive so I feel like we have a nice simmering cocktail of that going on right now. Hey It's Swisher you may know me as the only person who looks cool wearing sunglasses indoors but in my spare time. I host a podcast called Rico decode every week. We talk about power change in the people you need to know. Around tech and beyond some of my recent guests include Edward Snowden Meghan re piano and the cast of the l word which was a huge thrill for me. If any of these sound interesting to you should listen them now. On Rico decode subscribe to the show for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast APP to be the first to hear new interviews every week. Hi I'm Ariel Zim Ross and I host a podcast called reset. Reset is a show about the impact of technology in our lives. And Right. Now we're looking at how this corona virus is impacting us through the lens of Technology and science. So the virus is basically a spiky bowl. We're talking about the race to make more ventilators in the simple fact is that if somebody needs a ventilator and they can't get one they die we're hearing from people who've tested positive for covert nineteen. I felt like I was on the set of a movie about a pandemic. And we're covering how tech companies are responding to the global pandemic. Really even a company like Amazon was not prepared for this. So if you want to understand the impact of this virus on our bodies and on the way we live now listen to reset and subscribe for free on Apple podcasts. Stitcher or in your favorite podcast. App later nerds. You're a very very beautiful sentence of writer which is something I noticed because I have. My talents is a writer but that is not really one of them. How do you practice at? How did how did you develop that part of your craft first of all thank you? That's very kind. I think I am a huge re- writer and I always try to make sure that every word in a sentence is load bearing so I tried to you know. Make sure that I'm not adding in more more and more that everything that's there is is necessary. I'm I read a lot of poetry to that end. I feel like poetry. Does everything that novels do. But in this beautiful compact in Elegiac Way and so I try to start many writing days reading a little bit of poetry. Sort of trying to remember that. I want each word to feel active. And then I just you know edit like crazy. How do you know when a sentence isn't there yet or it is an office Odd some personal into this because so my partner's a writer and she's also very very beautiful sentence of a writer and that capacity to edit and read it and re re edit a sentence. I don't seem to have it not that I don't want it but that I can't look at a sentence I've written and imagine it radically different now. Obviously I have to rewrite things but the only thing I can see clearly in my own work as argument and clarity. I can't easily imagine the multi verse of ways that same sentence could appear and how you could reform the word. So what is it? When you're editing your looking forward you read it aloud for the music of it is just a feeling of rightness like how do you? How do you see the alternatives and no one to stop high do I do read aloud. I think reading aloud his is important particularly because I'm so influenced by homer which was originally oral poetry and so I really want the sentences to have sort of an oral quality to them an oral presence. I guess so I do read aloud and you can hear pretty quickly when you're reading aloud if there is a real clanger in there. What are the things you stop over? What are the things you stumble over? I oftentimes will print out an edited on paper as opposed to on the screen. I feel like that really helps me. See A new. I have a really good first reader. I'm very fortunate that my husband is maybe the best editor I've ever known. And so he he also helps me if I if I'm you know if I have a darling in there that that needs to be killed as they say He Will. He will definitely point that out to me but for me. I think I just wanted to feel like it's running smooth and so I'm sort of reading it aloud or I'm reading on the page. I'm it feels kind of like up. There's a snag. Stop like there's something catching there and then it runs meant for a little bit and then there's another snag in another snag and I read it over a long period of time. So you know I'll reread the same chapter. I mean a hundred different times a hundred different times of day you know over and over and over again and so even if I don't catch it the first twenty five times you know maybe on the twenty six time I'll catch it or I'll see it or I'm just trying to make all feel like it's just moving seamlessly ahead. I've read in a couple of interviews we've talked about. Does your your apparent to end. You've talked about your of children's books and I became apparent about a year ago and so have dived deep into the world of children's books and something I didn't expect is just how wonderful they are with language and is how much more playful and focused on the sounds. Words can make and so I guess what I want to ask. The question is this. What can we learn as raiders or even two speakers from Sandra Boynton? I'm so I was just GonNa say dinosaur dance. I mean I think that just pure playfulness and that love sound and word the bounce of language the buoyancy The Life activated. You know you say a sentence senates and it's just an amazing sentence. Both my children loved Mu by La. La La which you know is not a complicated book but it takes so much skill to make a book that a six month old will listen to fifty times in a row and every time I read Dina I'm thinking of dinosaur dance in particular where it has a bunch of dinosaurs dancing but it's all about the sound so the velociraptor twins go bomb petty bump in. I don't know it's just genius. It's it's it's type of poetry I think and there's humor mixed in as well and surprise the element of surprise while still making sense is an important piece of it so I am huge. Sandra Boynton Fan There's so many wonderful wonderful children's books out there that have that playfulness of sound. And I love it. I think it's a wonderful thing to pass on pass onto kids. What are some children's books commend love? Let's see my kids are are now five and three. I'm I'm a little bit older. I love one of my favorites. I it has actually no words at all. it's journey. Which is the story of this girl? Sort of falling into a magical world that she enters with this magical crayon and going through these amazing landscapes and adventures. It's it's it's beautiful end just shows that is wonderful languages. You don't always need language if you have. If you have amazing. Images I mean have always loved the Laura Acts. There's so many amazing words in that I mean. Obviously there's the message of the law racks. But there's also just Dr seuss's wordplay like talking about the The old once ler who has a groovy Lewis Glove that he uses than he lets down snuggly hose and he sounds as if he has smallish bees up his nose. I mean just like the again that language balanced the made up language. That like the idea that we all know what snuggly hose would sound like trying to listen through it. Even though that's not a real word the ability to create sense just through the sound of the word even if the word is not real is always amazing to me when I read the lyrics. I've always wanted a word for not onomatopoeia but a word for word that sound like what they are somehow. Yeah likes and I think there is one that I may be forgotten but like smooth yeah is a smooth worded it is whereas poker to. Dennis does not sound like there's this way it does not sound pretty for people don't know that word Even though it means pretty which is the best thing in the English language. There's just like this way in which words can contain their essence. It's very hard to capture. But but it's a great and I guess people could argue over at subjective but it's It's a great when you can hit a word hits it. It's really wonderful. Glide what writers most influence the way you actually write prose this is always the fraught question for me because for some reason when I answered I always like I'm claiming that I'm as good as theirs writer so I'm GonNa say up front that I'm not but I will talk about the writers I loved and WHO's pros. I admired in reread and re read as a young person. I've loved Toni. Morrison I loved Margaret Atwood. I loved Isabel Allende in her storytelling. I love poetry. I read A cliche a teenage girl reading Sylvia plath but I loved Sylvia plath and and I loved the sound of her words. When I was a teenager I listened to her poetry a lot when I listen to it and read it a lot. I Love James Baldwin. He was one of my favorite my favorite writers a raisin in the Sun was one of my favorite. I read a lot of place when I was a teenager. And I feel like those are very formative so raised in the sun by the rain hands. Berry and then Everything by Tennessee. Williams. I Read Tennessee. Williams obsessively so Tennessee Williams. I feel I I mean. I don't really think you can look at my work in Tennessee Williams in there but I feel like he must have gone in there because I read him so much and Nora Ephron those were the the writers that were kind of always right right by my side if you could travel back in time to express any point in history for a year long period. What Year would you choose? That is such an interesting question What choose on my Gosh? There's so many moments might might your. This is as soon as we stop this. Podcast I'M GONNA make a list of fifty fifty years I'd want experienced okay. I'm going to name thirty one. Bc I would like to experience the meltdown leading up to the battle of Axiom in Cleopatra's Court. That is such a great specific on Cleopatra's Court. Why do you think it is a creek in north are so dominant for kids when you have these amazing Pantheon's Egyptian mythology and native American and so on like what is it about Greek and Norris has been dominant as it colonialism. Thing or like how do you how do you explain that I mean I think I think it builds on itself that we love the Mischa people love children and they pass them on to their kids? And there's this sense of you know that even though Greek myths are filled with necrophilia and bestiality and horrendous adultery and cruelty that they're good literature. There's this sort of they've they've gotten put into the into. The you know into the Canon somehow but I love Egyptian mythology and I find it so beautiful and interesting in in different and actually that was the I I loved it as a child to. I was fortunate to be in New York City. And so I got to go to the Egyptian wing at the Metropolitan Museum of art and I would oftentimes choose that over the Greek and Roman wings because I loved it. I loved it so so much and it's been interesting that with my own children. My own children have actually been much more drawn to Japan with Haji while. So there's so many other absolutely amazing mythologies out there I'm also love the Indian epochs remain. Ah in the Mahabharata. And they're so interesting to look at against the Iliad the Odyssey as well so I mean I think if you if you love myths. It's all good and and I think it's sort of unfair that that Greek enormous have kind of taken up the lion share of the space. And let me and hear them on that note. Which is if you had actually just like to read. What are a couple? Books are translations you would recommend so I would absolutely recommend Emily Wilson's translation Of the Odyssey Edith. Hamilton tried and true remiss collection is is wonderful. And it's been around a long time. Stephen Fry the actor and writer has written. I think to modern myth retailing sorry not modern but contemporary retelling of Greek myths. Mythos and heroes. I believe I haven't actually read them yet. Which I feel terrible about but people have been saying that they are excellent so those seem like a good good place. I love in Carson's translations. She is a poet classicist. Her translations of Sappho one of the only female voices that has survived to us from the ancient world are so beautiful staff. Ohs Corpus is unfortunately basically in tatters. But she gets the Greek on one side in the English on the other end. She sort of shows where all the brakes are. Because there's a lot of the poems that are missing and that collection of a translation of Sappho is called if not winter and again that's an carson. I'm Anne Carson has also done one of my favorite books of all time called autobiography of red. Which is a retelling of Hercules myth? That is just absolutely outstanding and strange Madeline Miller. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you to Madeline Miller for being on the show. I get all of you for being here. If there are other people who are maybe outside the shows normal topics that you think would be great on the show. I love to hear about them Emails show at Vox Dot Com again as recline show at. Vox Dot Com. So my favorite episodes have been when you all have sent in ideas for writers and thinkers and artists that I've not heard of or had not followed the work myself. But you're right that they'd be wonderful. That was not actually the case for this one but like K. Jemison came to me through Somebody out there in in podcast land so do take these recommendations seriously and I would like to make sure the show has range in a difficult period. I think it's important that we keep thinking about things art and beauty and stories that are not just corona virus. So we're paying attention all that. Thank you of course Karma for researching Geld for producing an editing. Both of them. I just WANNA say have been through making the show under adverse circumstances and I'm very grateful to them again. My mom s her client show at box dot com and the Ezra Klein show as always Fox media podcast production.

Emily Wilson Odysseus Ulysses homer Shakespeare King Lear Penelope Madeline Miller fitzgerald Athena Artemis director HBO New York Times Orange Prize Allio Dow Hera Washington Post Taliban Ithaca
TSP125 - PH  Factor: Necessity is the mother.

The Sill - Perspectives on Art

36:08 min | 2 months ago

TSP125 - PH Factor: Necessity is the mother.

"Creativity is born when we do nothing. Yes sure as kind of a dreamer I recognize exactly and even historically if you study. And you look at Edison. You look at the fords of the world. All these people were known for their ability to create to invent modify and so on they always described how they came up with some of their greatest ideas and developments during times of solitude. Buying you're listening to the sill. Podcast with Peter Noce and Harry posner episode one hundred and twenty five Ph factor necessity. Is the mother. This is going to be a fun chat. First of all one of my favorite subjects. You Know Harry Mothers. Did you know that? Yeah in minus necessity so so there we go. I'm very serious mother part. Yeah I know. You're you're a mama's boy what can I say? No don't deny at a guy man it's fine to be a Momma's boy comes are important a very important anyway. So yes we're talking about. Necessity is the mother dot dot dot of invention in other words. We're talking about creativity in crisis. Yes or creativity coming out of crisis sort of thing and we've had of course many crises to look at and experience now not as directly as when we're having now historically but so much has come out of crisis there's something about it that stirs the creative juices in human beings to a to the critical situation and be thinking about the future and how different could be in laying. The seeds for that future confinement actually emboldens creativity in some ways. But you have to go through kind of a process so for example with covid Nineteen Yup when we first got hit with it. There was an impact that was felt. Didn't it didn't give you time to really think all you felt was released. A lot of people felt was initial pain of some sort. They couldn't do what they wanted. Financial losing jobs all that so you can't really be creative during a time when you're feeling the impact of something then of course what's the next step while you kind of have to regroup but you've also got time now that you didn't have before you're a few weeks into it right. Yeah you've got nowhere to go. And you've got to kind of regroup. Well what happens after you regroup now? You have to figure out a way to come back. Yeah so you're on the rebound period and that's where I think. A lot of the creative process takes place. Because you've gotten through the initial shock of the impact right at a point. Now where you're going. This is out of my control. This part is out of my control however suddenly I have time and time when we talk about economics. There was a book Robert Kiyosaki Rich Dad. Poor Dad the essence of the book. Is that when you have wealth or when you have money essentially what you're doing you're buying time or you're gaining time because when you don't have money you have to spend a lot of time to acquire money so all of that ties into the creative process and early in the process that threefold process you just mentioned is the fact of the new environment that we have to live through this crisis so the first fact was distance. We had to stay apart. We're still in that phase so one of the first creative acts that came out of that that I noticed and many people around the world noticed was on youtube run. Facebook were videos of northern popped up. Where suddenly there was music ringing throughout streets streets but from balconies and people joining in in these choirs of these beautiful songs to comfort each other to give people a sense of hope and connection so that was where the first creative things that came out of it and I was like. Wow that was so touching right so I was very impressed with that creative act of connection and then one of the other ones out of Italy. That was kind of interesting for me. Was seeing a video of these long poles being extended out from balconies with a glass of wine attached end six seven eight of them reaching out towards each other so that people could clink glasses the amazing and have now that may seem trivial. Joe. It's not no to things that are happening there. Yeah Number One. You're expressing a value by making the effort. Yes there's a symbolism as well not even distance can keep us from enjoying one another and enjoying the situation exactly exactly in terms of distance as well with some kids in Asia in different parts of Asia. What they are having them do is create make their own funky hats. That have these sort of three foot spikes coming out of them as full as kind of a reminder distance for the kids because to streaming six feet of they're both wearing a kids create the road and act of creativity in response to the fact of the crisis other things that have come out which are really interesting. Are these care. Mongering groups that have sprung up everywhere where people in communities have got together and say we're healthy where young were capable. There are people who are need their healthcare workers who are putting themselves in the front lines. They're seniors who are need at Cetera. We can do something for each other and so these care. Mongering communities have sprung up to deliver groceries to seniors who get out to deliver free lunches from community restaurants to healthcare professionals on the front lines acts of care and compassion and generosity exhibited through the creation of these groups. It's a creation. It's creative act as it is. Yeah and it could last beyond this or absolutely many of these things will look at. The bubonic plague will shakespeare one of greatest plays King Lear during the Bonnet Play. That's right neutering. Developed Calculus during the bubonic plague doctor to have a look at that. A A lot of creativity is born when we do nothing. Yes sure as a kind of a dreamer. I recognize that exactly even historically if you study. And you look at Edison. You look at the fords of the world. All these people were known for their ability to create to invent modify and so on They always described how they came up with some of their greatest ideas and developments during times of solitude. Sure we could even go back in history and cite. Some examples of inventions have come out of for example the Great Depression which lasted for ten years. Roy Thirty Twenty twenty nine thousand nine hundred eighty nine. Roughly in there and some of the things that came out of that period for example the first electric dry razor came out of that period. The first car radio invented the modern. Tampon came in nineteen thirty one. The chocolate chip cookie created putting and Chagas a little bit the first supermarket King. Cullen opened in one thousand nine hundred. Thirty and monopoly. The game monopoly came in nineteen thirty five by a fellow named Darryl. Apparently yes parker brothers then purchased the patent for that kind of pseudo wealth through a game which was the antithesis of what was actually happening right responses to crises in the middle of the crisis. And you may be poor but we're going to create a game where you can win millions properties. We're GONNA pretend you're rich. So these things all come out of necessity to respond to yes hardship for example either the Second World War. We got radio navigation known as radar. Yeah we got synthetic rubber oil. We got the development of V to space travel and jet engines got nuclear power and computers Came out of that all of these things while things were accelerated bout of need out of need and have lasted yes forever and then applied to quote unquote normal. Cima a war situation at obliged to civil life exactly so these kinds of creative acts can come out of crisis but the stay with covert for a second come back to covert speaking of which you've got factories that would be producing widgets retooling to produce ventilators. The same situation occurred during World War. Two were auto factories were converted to military appliances and tanks. Armaments Industry put on a war footing in this case is over medical war footing But that implies new techniques for adopting and changing technologies and keeping industry fluid in a certain way for this kind of situation in pens again People Three D. Printing P. P. E. or other kinds of government for masks for frontline workers These are creative impulses that come and degree Tivi also involves a change in thinking is not just a physical transformation. Imagine for example. Gm plant the manufacturers cars and now has to manufacture masks or ventilators. Imagine what it would require in terms of the planning shifting of space and so on and then oftentimes as we've discussed just now with regards to wartime depression so on things become the new norm For example so for example some of the things that we're going through right now education let's take education because education is pretty prominent these days. Because that's been kind of the very obvious and initial major hit all these children that have had to be taken out of schools and so on and not for a week or two but now they're talking perhaps even a year too so a lot of families that probably would not have even thought of doing it. Three months ago are suddenly looking at home schooling. Yep they're getting online. Universities now are getting to the point where they're seriously looking at online courses on a much much wider scale than they were previously. This could be one of those things that I just mentioned. It becomes the new norm. A lot of parents have younger children who have had to really become home schoolers and it's a big challenge for a lot of get that and some have risen to the challenge and some are struggling but I kind of facilitate a homeschool kids chest group wrote in the area here and those kids are amazing and interesting and quite different in some ways than the norm. We've talked before because they've been home schooled. So maybe this might actually be an impulse to create a more home school environment for of kids which will also inherent been that require shifts in the entire educational process and the way of thinking and the work world because the parents who would normally go off to work now work from home or easily because of this crisis there have been systems put in place for people to work from home. So they're going to go. I'll just stay working from home and I've got my kids with me and that's okay. I can work with this and I'll tell you firsthand that I've experienced this personally. During this time I've had an increasing number of people who've come to me for technical assistance in that they've always had their computers in their smartphones and so on but they always used them minimally in terms of to make a basic phone. Call this an email. But suddenly they're saying there are other things that we can do here. Yeah part of it is the home education part of it is also because they're doing so much more work from home that they're finding that even things perhaps before they were getting from their assistance or other people in the office. They now have to do themselves right. You also start to see and adapt. Wow this is a function that I perform every day. Now surely there has to be a more efficient way of doing this. I do not Wanna spend half an hour each day doing the exact same being forced to find creative solutions that otherwise could be lazy about yes and then that we talked about the creativity. Well if we agree that creativity is born out of a collective of experience knowledge. How do you acquire those things? The first thing you need is the time to do that. Yes sure in what we've got right now. And also the diy idea in the work yourself that can be applied and is being applied to mundane domestic life. So the kids are. Home are being home schooled or online learning. And they're helping. Mom Bake Bread. Which is something. Maybe she hasn't been doing much at all she'd be going by a low from the local store right. Yeah so there's all of this bread-making fad inherent and dad is also a lot of mutual appreciation. For what the other does a parent can also appreciate the learning process which has been kind of out of their around for many many years in terms of the scholastic environment and the child begins to appreciate perhaps the effort and time that goes into the making food. That mom does every day and they start to understand as well. Daily things like washing of clothes organizing their space things that in the business of a normal day the running out the door to clock clock Mama's frazzled. The kids are going. They're going. There's really no time for that. Understanding and for that connection right in kids are doing more crafts at home as more time developing their creative sort of muscles. If you like. Is it really interesting thing that I saw today on facebook fascinating kind of sad at the same time but really interesting? This person wanted to hug their mother and they wanted their son to hug. His grandmother created this idea. She took like a clothesline littered across. The yard hung a plastic sheet from the clothes. Line attached plastic sleeves off. You could lose your arms ru in one direction and in the other so gramma could come. Put Her hands through the sleeves. Run you you can put your hands through your sleeves on your side and you could actually hurt each other coated in this plastic protection. You're still getting the physical conduct getting that sense of closeness. Sure and there was something bitter sweet and sad and lovely about that but it's a creative act which was really interesting. Tug Machine to hug love. He has called it. The Hud glow. Okay so happy. Mother's Day mom. We're going to give you a hug. Another state for germs. Through your iphone and you home you keep your arms in their nanny today and there. There's something I should have said at the beginning of the PODCAST. I should have prefaced this entire discussion with that. And so I'll say it now when we talk about these things we have to acknowledge that both you and I to certain level were privileged. Were PROBLEMS TO BE SITTING HERE. Being able to do this podcast. There's a lot of people out there that don't have the comfort. The don't have the situation that allows even part of what we're discussing of course So these things that we're talking boat are wonderful and they're happening but they're also happening from position of privilege. I know but on the other hand there are millions and millions and millions and millions of people who are in a position of privilege who have the time corps able to apply creative thinking yes to these issues in these problems that have emerged like long term care facility or the economy. Or what have you and are coming up with and thinking about better ways of living better ways of running the economy better ways of running the health system which are going to go beyond this crisis so you can think about the economy in the whole movement towards universal basic income governments. All around the world are spending billions of dollars creating these programs and multiple levels municipal provincial statewide individual etc. And they're all kind of bureaucratically entwined entangled in different ways in a bit clunky yes and a lot of people are saying. We don't need all of that. Clunky nece provide a basic income for everyone across the board or a basic income supplements. So that there's a baseline limit minimum. It people need to survive and they get that in. You can solve a lot of these issues and the anxiety around. Whether my job's going to come back right away etcetera etcetera and you also improve the situation as it's happening because you don't know how long this specific situation is going to continue. That's right so in the interim you are freeing up those families that have that basic income to really focus their energy on improving the situation within the confinement of that time period. So yeah the mother who wants to homeschool can do so in a much better fashion if she knows that at least there's food coming in for them to eat exactly but basics are looked after us like maslow's law maybe you could extrapolate maslow's law basically says and it's based on a hierarchy of needs each level that you come to your ability to go up to the next level depends on you having arrived at a point of comfort in the level that you're in so for example if you're hungry you really can't get to the next level of learning until you remove the starvation right. It's a kind of a ladder of needs to be met or to move. Yeah that's the reason. Why in our society? We often talk about it in broader terms. We talk about privileged. Children Are Children. Come out of wealthy homes or in a sense. Those layers have been achieved one way or another word to get them to that particular state whether it's by design or by accident. Whatever right so this idea of meeting people's basic needs to start with ladder you like. It's been experimented with and countries like Holland and Canada Kenya. Finland has been doing this recently. Spain in the middle of this crisis has instituted or is about to institute a Basic Income Program Lost Eight hundred ninety thousand jobs during this period and they've been hit really hard but they plan to extend beyond the crisis road this idea. And so some of these countries instituting. This will be an experiment to see whether really can work over the long term. Most of these experiments are not that long and some of them sort of have worked in some of them have found. Well people have not been as quick to want to work even that that are getting regular income and so has to be fine tuned. Obviously but it's there in the atmosphere speak For a moment because this is the common opposition to such systems that the perception is that. If you give someone a basic income that you no longer incentivize them riding on longer have the desire to seek work right. I don't particularly agree with that view. Unless you're giving them such an extravagant amount of that they literally never have to do anything else right. What we're talking about is a level of subsistence that gives you enough to look after your basic needs but certainly the great majority of people given that level of comfort will aspire to more and they will work accordingly. And those that don't in my opinion should not be penalized if they're living in a certain way and did not want more unless they're putting stress on people that are working harder and taking from them. I don't see why they should be penalized. We're choosing to live a life that doesn't have all those things that other people perhaps want to me. It's a way of kind of removing the entire social judgment of how we should live. Yep and take a sector like the arts sector. Most artists ninety nine point nine percent of artists who are committed to that way of living road. It doesn't matter whether they have a thousand dollars coming in a month or twenty thousand dollars coming in and that impulse to be creative and to improve or inspire people in the world. It's always gonna be there or what so that sector? I don't think we need to worry about in terms of all. Are they going to stop what they've been doing? Just sit around but not going to happen but that's not necessarily an easy thing for people who are focused on money. You ought to understand sure because it's a way of thinking it's a way of living. Yeah it's this understanding that we all have things to contribute and create and that a lot of the values that we've assigned the things have not necessarily been balanced. That's right and we can go back to our buddy Andrew Welsh just who If you podcasts ago we popped in seven or eight minute excerpt idea of universal basic income. And he also wrote a book called the value crisis. Talks about exactly what you're talk. Yes send a description. Actually the value crisis one goes all the way back to our second podcast back in July of twenty seventeen right now. I should backtrack a little bit because I did say that. These universal basic income experiments didn't last too long. There is one that has lasted a long time. And that's the Alaska. Permanent Fund Jr actually began in one thousand nine hundred eighty two or to help people out started around three hundred dollars a month. I didn't know this in varies year per year depending by two thousand eight the size of the annual dividends that citizens received reached an all time high of two thousand sixty nine dollars per person per year. Can you tell me a little bit about that dividend that they created corresponded to part of the average interest earned over the previous five years creating this fund hookah from revenues from mining etc? Now they're not the only ones to do that. Some of the Middle Eastern countries also socially. It's actually a dividend on productivity based on productivity right shared with the citizenry exactly and so since one thousand nine hundred two. They've been doing that in Alaska so there are some long term programs that have been going on like that. It's not a lot if you think about it. Three hundred dollars per person per annum even two thousand dollars per person per annum is not tons already an initial thought in the whole concept of redistribution of wealth. Exactly it's a nod in that direction. What we're talking about here is a kind of evolution of the Welfare State. Yes sharing in wealth is very different from just giving things away. Yeah I think that's something that really has to be thought through because we have a tendency in western culture specifically in very capitalistic countries because even capitalism there are levels of capitalism depending on which country. You're in here. We all recognize the US as being the prime example of capitalism at. Its Max but there's also a kind of blend of ideas what some people would call socialistic Canada Sweden. We're capitalists but we have a little bit of that counterbalanced so the whole idea then where the creative aspect comes from his not thinking that you're giving things away or that people are being lazy. Is that your appreciating the entire culture Or what they contribute and never has there been a better example of that the now with all these healthcare workers tell me what most people would suggest. The value is right now exactly. Well obviously their value. Who shot up in our estimation right? But they're doing what they've always done. Or why could these people not also been appreciated similarly before and it's like that with a lot of things. You mentioned an artist. Well someone who creates produces a movie a writes a book offers something to society at large that sometimes to me even greater value than someone who produces a widget. And you can't put a monetary value on that exactly. Yeah there is this video that has been circulating around. And it's an interview with Dr Bush Bush American who is an endocrinologist and it's an incredible interview because his thinking about the virus its origin and what it means for us is really creative. In a sense just slipped out of the the normal medical box in its way of thinking and these pointed us. At the whole notion of our ecosystems being disrupted immune systems being disrupted through our interventions in how cove vid and corona seems to relate to the levels of air pollution. There's more mortality in areas where the air pollution is very high or in where there is toxic substances being put into the Earth agriculturally which makes sense logically. Well it does but why are we not heard this talked about before again and we should be careful when we mentioned these things both you and is sort of the idea behind the video. The his conversation to me made perfect sense logically. Neither one of us are clinicians or medical experts. However the video made sense provided that the information right in the video is correct his sort of analysis of the situation as in this is actually kind of cyanide poisoning not the virus per se. He's saying that the virus has unmasked the toxicity. It's unmasking the toxicity of our bodies and the environment. Basically what he's saying is this virus like most viruses exist constantly. We just provide the environment for them to flourishing and this whole military speak warlord war on the warring on this virus. Killing is completely off base bonus for me because it's kind of implying that the virus has a plan is planned this attack and it's just doing its own thing exactly exactly and we are in doing our own thing which isn't necessarily tying in with nature the other important thing about this particular video to me was not so much the factual part because you can always argue facts and levels of expertise. Were me was more than this fellow. Apart from his background in his education which was obvious it was his life experience with the burning of children in the Philippines and spending time in hospices. That to me is what made the video more impactful in some ways because he was describing things not just from a scientific level but from a spiritual human level which is largely lacking in a lot of the political discussions. Yeah we don't need to say too much more about it because people should go themselves. It's about an hour and twenty minutes long on Youtube. Youtubecom Zach Bush and it's an incredible integration. So actually called the doctor who predicted cove nineteen answers. All right. I sat down and listen to it. And it's extrordinary. Yeah it's interesting because I put it out is blind. Bcc email to about forty or fifty people. And I'm not surprised that those did respond but the level of some of the responses has been very very encouraging to me because it shows me that whether they thought about it before or not. They're certainly more vociferous about it now. So perhaps as we're talking about here with whole creative process the creative process has also been creative thinking. Okay so let me just get personal for a second Peter in terms of your experience during this time. Where have you found a creative impulse in showing itself? Well I don't know about the creative impulse because I kind of had that already and it's part of what I do but what. It's done my experience for this time. It's elevated it to another level and that I no longer just do things to get certain things done even with clients. I feel like there's more purpose behind what I'm doing because I see that I have a certain skills of taken on a certain amount of significance in the sense that I can supply I e some technical skills to facilitate the dissemination of information. Yeah but did you have to use or discover some creative ways of doing that while had to discover more efficient ways of doing certain things because I wanted to do more of it so I always had the ability to do that but I never had the situation where I had to go to that because it wasn't frequent enough so for example of I was just going to update something once or twice. I wouldn't bother automating it because it was a process that will take thirty seconds fifty seconds. I wouldn't bother. But now for example the automation process becomes more significant. Because now there's something that I wanted to do on an ongoing basis so I designed things to be more efficient. Uk takes creative energy. Yes ultimately as I've mentioned to you since we began these podcasts. Even the creative aspect is means to an end. Yeah right and so. What's the big picture of? The big picture is echoing live just generally healthier happier lives with a wanting the sound cliche. That's the essence of it out of this crisis. That is what people are thinking about as post pandemic is. How can life be better than it was? We cannot go back to what it was before this really interesting before. This crisis occurred how many people were thinking. That thought. We can't do what we were doing. Actually now that you said it that I think the essence of a lot of what I do directly or indirectly is to oppose this whole idea of. I can't sure my thinking is you. Can you may not always be able. You may not always have all the tools that you need to do it but begin by not saying you can't of course and then if you fail you fail but at least that you believe in yourself because this isn't just about better lives this is feeling better about yourself who and knowing that you can do things or attempt to do them rather than take the old where thinking say well. It'll never happen you can't change it. Don't bother and as an artist as a writer. I mean this incredible satisfaction in putting your energy towards creating something new in the world grafting it working on it and then putting it out there as a kind of a gift. Yes and so all of these creative acts are basically gifts to the world gifts and if someone had asked me for five years ago because as you know without getting into details. I gave up a phenomenal amount of money. In the workforce which has had drawbacks personally as well. I mean. There's no question about it. But that whole thing will gifting and this thinking that gifting is free and has no value. Yeah of course it depends on how you see that because for example we've gotten more donations during this crisis than we did when the crisis was not with. Vince for podcast I am. I meant to mention to you. Received a few hundred dollars over the course of two weeks. Wow and it's minimal. Obviously but the point is that you would think a time when people are afraid of their financial situations that don't have it to give and suddenly they're giving it at a time when they can least give it. This is great. We can wrap this up by me saying we're GONNA take donation money and I'm going to take you out to dinner at a very special new restaurant. Speaking of creativity that has been created in Sweden Sweden. Yeah it's called table for one. Yes and the idea is it's a solo dining experience and they have a table out in a field one person and you go sit there and they have a contraption that sends the bread towards the tail. Low all that and you have this incredible experience of being by yourself and not feeling alone. You're nature and that sort of thing and I'm going to take you there with that money and blow our money on this table for one restaurant you'll go in. I have your meal and then I'll go in our getting the Sweden. We'll get a care mongering group to help us get over there. Don't worry we'll get them. Send in your comments. Hit the audio record button on our website and drop us some years some thoughts about what you're doing during this crisis what's your creative act like. Yes and maybe we should Very quickly just mentioned to them that along the lines of this entire situation with Cova nineteen we will be talking once again to Dr Cloudy. Six right who interviewed in two thousand eighteen about her book erotic integrity. She's going to come back to talk to us about relationships and sex during Cova nineteen. That's on the next one fantastic beyond that all I can say is chow. Peter Chari the sill. Podcast is a connecting dots media production available at the Silk PODCAST DOT COM.

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Episode 1006 - John Lithgow

WTF with Marc Maron Podcast

1:27:19 hr | 1 year ago

Episode 1006 - John Lithgow

"Hey, folks, turn your great idea into a reality at squarespace squarespace makes it easier than ever to launch your passion project. Whether you're showcasing your work or selling products of any kind with beautiful templates and the ability to customize just about anything you can easily make a beautiful website all by yourself. And if you do get stuck squarespace is twenty four seven award winning customer support is there to help head to squarespace dot com slash W F or a free trial. And when you're ready to launch us, the offer code WT f- to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website, or domain. Let's do the show. All right. Let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers what the fuck buddies? What the fucking years? What the fuck Indelec's? What the fuck couplets? What? Yeah. How's it going? You guys. The what the fuck couplets? Hey, it's Mark Maron. This is my show WT f-. Welcome to it. How's it going? John lithgow. Oh is here. Yeah. Yeah. The John Lithgow. I what is your first memories of John Lithgow scary, right? Usually ninety percent of the time unless you grew up with third rock, I didn't. But for me, I think it's probably could have possibly be blow out. Oh, maybe it is. I just know. It was it. He can be a little scary. Even when he's not being scared. He's oil intense e like, he's intense any way you slice it. When he scary. It's really fucking scary. When he's nice is really fucking nice. And when he's scared he's really fucking scared. Great actor, no doubt, great actor thrilled to have him. So he's here. What else do I need to tell you? I would like to encourage you to get tickets to my London show. I'm not begging, but it would be nice. I was there. Maybe I was there a year or so ago and now I'm back at Royal Festival Hall, April six twenty nineteen that's a this week. And at the seven thirty pm show. I believe there is still tickets left. I think Birmingham. There's a few after I know Manchester sold out Birmingham on the eighth is there might be a few left their vicar street in Ireland Dublin April eleventh, I hope that those I think there's a few f Dono and then I've got dates coming up in San Diego. Ago in in Madison, Wisconsin in Burlington Vermont in Saint Louis in Raleigh, North Carolina. And some more dates will be added. You can go to W T F pod tour dot com. That right w Tf pod dot com slash tour. That will get you those wings. So look, I'll be honest with you. I'm going to read some emails because I'm doing this a few days before I leave. You're listening to this on Monday. Probably. So I recorded it a few days ago like the day before I left for New York. It's I don't need to confuse things. But it's not last night. It's a few nights ago because I'm traveling tomorrow. I'm trying to pack. I'm trying to pack for the Europe trip because I only want all I wanna take a carry on because checking bags is such a fucking mess. And you just don't know what the fuck is going to happen. But I'm going to be gone for a while. So how do I like look? All right. I'll just do hundred. I'll do on your on the road. And even though I got a little cash in the Bank. I'll probably go to fucking laundromat. If I can find one, you know, why because I don't mind spending a few hours at a laundromat. I don't mind engaging with just sitting there looking at the dryer thinking about how clean my clothes are going to be and just like I'm doing something out in the world. That's I should do more of that was y'all do a little more laundromat. Stuff being paranoid about break ins and burgers in your own home sucks, folks. It's important to keep fear out of your life. That's why we recommend SimpliSafe on this show. Studies show that security systems deter burglars and SimpliSafe is security. That knows it feels good to fear less part of the reason. You don't have to worry if you have a SimpliSafe system is that it's designed to cover all the bases. Even the ones you're not thinking about it keeps working if the power goes out, or if the wifi goes down or even if a burglar as your keypad, they have some of the fastest response times in the industry ready to send help twenty four seven if there's an emergency. Plus, SimpliSafe has gotten rid of all the stuff that makes home security, so annoying. There's no contracts, no hidden fees. All the prices are fair, and honest, and not only does it have great customer satisfaction grades. It's the top choice security system for C net PC MAG and more than three million Americans as well. So try simply safe and see how good it feels to fear less. Just go to SimpliSafe dot com. So I should. W t f to check it out. That's SimpliSafe dot com slash W Tf. Okay. All right. So you know, I make mistakes we all make mistakes, I'm willing to admit my my mistakes, most of the time they stubbornly sometimes a hold onto them for a little while depends. But in a second of all address some apparent mistakes. But this one was this was just a question from uses from e w subject line. How do you know? Hey, mark. I'm listening to you interview that actor who plays the punisher John Byrne, Paul you're asking him about self-doubt. I was listening to you push the topic and push the topic and push the topic of beginning to feel uncomfortable. I just felt uncomfortable. When you wrote that three times just then you switch to asking him about meeting his wife. How did you learn when to switch topics? It seemed like a great time to switch. It felt like you squeeze Philemon right to the edge. Then switched. I know. I will. Stuck in a topic? When talking to people there seems to be a real art to jumping from topic to topic any tips. Thanks, e w yeah. When when you when you're looking at them as you're saying the thing over and over again, and they appear annoyed or glazed over or they kind of shut down or they don't hold your gaze anymore or they walk away or they just Wookey you like what the fuck is wrong with you those are all indicators of time to switch topics. Also, this is an indicator if they say could you quit quit asking me that that that's an indicator or this one the fuck you talking about that's a sure sign that you might want to move on or how about this one. Yeah. I don't I don't feel comfortable talking about that with you. Yeah. But see like the thing is like you can read all of those things that I just said on someone's face, if you're paying attention. You can also like their faces for fuck you their faces for I don't want to answer that their faces for. Not comfortable, you know, it's a mixture. But I'd say one of the tips is if they say shut up or move on or or don't talk to me about that. That's a good time to to not talk about it anymore. Here's another Email. Rob Lowe interview subject line. Hey, mark. I've enjoyed just about all of your one thousand podcasts. This is coming from a fan during your interview with Rob Lowe, I noticed a derisive tone in your voice whenever you discussed. His new gig is a game show host. In fact, there was a good amount of contemptuous laughter on your part, which your guest gracefully ignored. Of course. You have every right to judge someone for their choice of occupation. But during those parts of the interview, I think you came off sounding like a dick still a big fan. Carl PS hundred percent, well, call your one hundred percent misreading that Mr. low and myself had a nice time. Sometimes I changed tones to to sort of more connect with the guest, and I thought Rob Lowe could take a little ball busting which he could you didn't see him smiling. You didn't see him laughing. He's got to sell the. Show. He can't. Yeah. I know how he feels. We know I feel I mean, it might be a great show, but come on, man. It's a giant mechanical arm. That's strong people around stops in front of questions. Give me a fucking break. Dude. It's not a matter of judgment. It's bizarro and funny, and yeah, I was slightly derisive with Rob Lowe because that's what it that's what it required for us to fuck and have a good conversation. Just trust me a little bit. Jesus christ. Is this derisive Carl is does this. How does this feel Carl? And because I don't think this is derisive. I think this is annoyed. If I'd be like if I'd be like come on get Carl. I mean are like really you're you're mad about me making fun of of the game show. Carl Carl you've seriously seriously, are you are you really upset with me 'cause I made fun of giant arm amusement park game show that rob Lowe's is hosting your are you really combined Carl he'd really that sound. I think that was more what I was doing. And I I have no problem with. Here's one language landmines. And this is where we get into making mistakes as we do, especially if you're old older old enough to be set in some bad habits, perhaps or the ones that you don't even know you have dearest, Mark. In your intriguing interview with the charming Phoebe Robinson? Both of you used words, it could certainly be offensive to native peoples. You said off the rez to describe somebody having a possible psychotic break. And she said tribe referring to belonging to a group. I'm not in any way, politically, correct or a ball BUSTER. And I was not personally offended. However, I thought you would find it interesting. How even those of us who are trying have yet to parse the institutionalized racism against our most marginalized groups from our casual language that is a fine sentence. The fuck ary of our cultural legacy is embedded in the very words. No matter our intent, thanks for all you do. I enjoy virtually hanging out with you and your guest twice a week. You feel like a good friend. I've never met. And listening to you is helped me know, myself better and grow sincerely Daniel. Okay. You're right language is important language is powerful language can do good things. It can do bad things. But it does get in there and dictate the movement of culture dictates a lot of things especially through through repetition. And I get these things can evolve. But when I read yours, I was like, yeah. I kind of understand what he was saying. Then I got this Email off the rez four question marks. Glad I stuck with the listening to the full show surprised to hear you say off res- the interview with Phoebe was so thoughtful surprise you made the comment in real time. After that interview think you need to address the comment K? Okay. Okay. I know now off the rez is not good because it's offensive to native peoples. I'm sorry. I will not say it anymore. Not a problem. It's out I removed it. But these two emails were reasonably toned, and I think that obviously I can't expect much from bullies on the right, but I can't expect something from bullies on the left in the sense that if you if there's a teachable moment, or whatever they call it. Then do it teach it I mean, don't condescend in belittle and indict somebody for for, you know, saying something that they may not have known was wrong. If feels good, I know they're, you know, there's a lot of hopelessness and powerlessness in progressive people right now. But that doesn't mean you need to, you know, condescend bully or indict people for things they might not understand it just say these two emails were reasonable, and they weren't like you fucking idiot. You fucking racist. You fucking piece of shit. Don't you know? He just did. Now. I didn't I didn't know. And if you talk to me like that I'm not going to keep doing it. But I'm probably gonna just shut down and not really taking in. And then secretly resent you and think you're a condescending self righteous douchebag, even though I get what you're saying. You know, I'm I'm not going to like the way you said it, and who the fucker you to talk to me like that. So if there is a teachable moment, I was just talking to someone they made up in my head, by the way, teach it teach it nicely teaching them pathetically. Teach it like, you know. Like somebody who cares. Yeah. Okay. So this is a good time for this quick reminder today that we're sponsored by squarespace. You heard me talk about scores base earlier, and you may have even checked out WTN pod dot com, which is powered by square spy. So if you're looking to launch your passion project and need a great site. They get it off the ground, you know, where to go, you know, squarespace has beautiful templates created by world class designers that you can customize within a few clicks in. It's really no matter what type of site you want you'll make it with squarespace. You can sell anything you want using the scores base e commerce, tools and analytics that help you grow your site in real time. There's there's nothing to patch. Upgrade ever. And you'll get the help you need with squarespace twenty four seven award winning customer support. I mean, squarespace empowers millions of people to turn great ideas into something real. So why don't you just listen to me just head to squarespace dot com slash W T effort free trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer code WTI f to save ten percents off your first purchase of. A website or domain that scores base dot com slash W Tf offer code WT f-. Okay. I mean, it's really that simple. And I went under that time. Did you did you feel the difference in in the read a that was new for me? And I think we all felt something different. I think we all you know, we may have heard squarespace ads before. But I think there we were like he's really settling into this. Maybe I should settle into this in here. This the up it's the exact same ad that he does all the time. But like somehow, it seems more laid back. Too much was that am I being too macro or micro? Which is what am I doing? Am. I am I being too meta is a meta. I think it's meta. I'll think it's macro micro. I just netted the shit out of that ad read denied meta the fuck out of it fucking meta met at it. All right. Look, oh, you know what I didn't get to talk about this last week. My congressman Adam shift and amazing thing in hearing in congress sitting next to a bunch of Republicans and just just really given it to him just talking about it was sort of like you had to watch go. Look it up Adam Schiff, you know, amazing sort of almost rabbinical rant in the hearing there in congress about Russia. He says, it's not okay. And like all it was really missing being Jew and having grown up, you know, going to synagogue sometimes in congregation it really felt like classically Jewish responsive reading it. Just it just it felt like that here. I actually found the text of it. And I swear to God it will work. They should I would be perfect for synagogue, my colleagues might think it's okay that the Russians offered dirt on the democratic candidate for president. As part of what's described as the Russian government's effort to help the Trump campaign, then the congregation goes, it's not. Okay. You might think. That's okay, congregation. It's not okay. My colleagues might think it's okay that when that was offered to the son of the president who had a pivotal role in the campaign that the president son did not call the FBI. He did not adamantly refused at foreign help. No. Instead that son said that he would love the help with the Russians. You might think. That's okay. It's not okay. That he took that meeting. It's not. Okay. You might think it's okay. That Paul Manafort the campaign chair someone with great experience running campaigns. Also took that meeting. It's not okay. You know, I'm talking about, you know, they the the rabbi says something in the congregation answer it, you know, what? Thank you, Adam Schiff. He's a nice guy. I think he's a vegan of cholesterol issues. Anyways. Listen, John Lithgow is here. He he's in the new film adaptation of Stephen king's pet cemetery which opens this. Friday, april. Fifties also on Broadway with Laurie Metcalf in the play Hillary and Clinton at the golden theatre. It's in previews. Now an opening night is April eighteenth enjoy Mr. go and myself. Okay. So you're wearing a Steppenwolf jersey. And I know why you do know why. Yes. I do. Well, how how do you know 'cause I'm working with Laurie Metcalf? Right. Oh, that's right. She left her Steppenwolf jersey, her her hoodie in my garage by mistake or. Yeah. And it was her favorite thing. Uh-huh. And it was sort of a thing, you know. And because she was doing the play on Broadway. The women what is it through the three tall women? Three tall women. And she was very upset that she'd left her hoodie, and I am arranged to have it sent to her ASAP. So she can have it. And I told the story on the show, and they sent me one. Right. Well, I mean what what is it when you when you think about stepping? We'll as a stage actor, you know, because like in my mind, it's just sort of like there's an intensity, man. There's like Malkovich, and you think of like even the next generation Joan Allen, and Tracy and Laurie there's this intensity. There's this rawness. There's. You know, and and it's sort of a school of thought. Yeah. It's kind of like the Chicago school. They they brought those productions to New York and the Athol late seventy. Yeah. And it was like this breath them wolf the. Yeah. Yeah. This bracing breath of air from Chicago. There's there's a certain defiance about it the windy city. Yeah. The angry wind when I was in high school. There was a big hit show. Yeah. On Broadway called from the second city. Yeah. And review. I it was it was the second city review with Alan Arkin, and Barbara Harris, wait when you were in high school in Ohio know in I I went to lots of schools, but I finished high school in Princeton, New Jersey. See your New Jersey. Yeah. And that was sort of just a second city review would have been just post the compass players. Yeah. Right. They came to New York and performed on Broadway and made this smash hit, but they would come down to Princeton on Monday night. Yeah. They're night off. Happens holiday. Yeah. So they could just improvise instead of doing a polish Broadway show, and he was in a tiny theater. I saw Alan Arkin when he must have been about twenty nine years old. Oh my God. And it was it was all comedy. Oh, yeah. I was just flat out hilarious. And and very interactive improv, polished at all, right? I was in the second row of this like one hundred fifty seat theater. Yeah. On the Princeton, University campus. Yeah. I've just a high school kid. Well, I mean, we're you acting in high school. Yeah. I mean, I was acting enacting and acting. Yeah. I was in theater family. I grew up. My dad produced regional theatre where mainly in Ohio fifties and sixties he created Shakespeare festival's. There's this what part of Ohio yellow springs were Antioch. Is I lived in Waterville outside of Toledo. Oh, where you were you born in Ohio. No, I was born in Rochester, Rochester. Did you spend time in Rochester? Oh, no. He's gone by two years old. Yeah. To yellow springs is the closest I had to hometown. Although it only lasts until I was about eleven while the moving. Well, my dad was theater producer, and they kept on the military. It was like the opposite of a military brat. It was a theater rat. Upbringing, and though his legacy theater is the Great Lakes theater festival in Cleveland, which still goes on. He started it in nineteen sixty two as the Great Lakes Shakespeare festival. Wow. So you how did he start in was he an actor or was he acted and directed but principally he was the artistic director of all these theaters in Iran, the McCarthy at her at Princeton for about ten years when I round about the time the first pro job, I had I mean with an equity contract Yang proper roles was working for my dad and mccarter. Yeah. How old were you? That was about twenty four years old. But you see grew up in the theater just wandering around the theater was your mom involved. Just as kind of keeping it all together. She had started out acting. But yeah, I never saw her act and had quit. We has another. She had four kids. I mean, we were a real gypsy wagon. Wow. And she just. I kept it all together. In like, your dad would just pull up stakes and say, we're going here. I gotta sometimes he pulled up stakes. Sometimes he was run out of town sometime times it got a bigger better gig and removed on. Why would he be run out of town, John? Well, the theater would go belly up, and I they hadn't paid their payroll taxes, or whatever, you know, it was crazy or none of which I knew about as a kid. We just you know, we just packed our suitcases and got into the station wagon. And was it seems like he was on some sort of mission. There must have been some sort of belief in the magic of it that Shakespeare was necessary for people to to be decent or something. He absolutely loved. Shakespeare, he was a he was a kind of shy isolate kid as I as I that's the lower and family and somewhere around fifteen sixteen years old he discovered Shakespeare and read the entire. Cannons start to finish. Have you know, come on? It's like reading the dictionary. But he was passionate about it. And he so fervently believed in it. Let me describe his most successful venture. Shakespeare, it was about an eight year long Shakespeare festival in yellow springs, Ohio. Yeah. This troupe of actors who would perform outdoors on the main building right in front of this big beautiful Victorian, gothic brick. It was like a an extension. Extended Porcher somebody. It was sort of built a you had a unit stage and in the course of a summertime they would open seven Shakespeare plays in nine weeks rehearsing in the day performing at night and once all seven of them seven. Yeah. They open them. All then they ran them in re rotating repertory different play every night of the week. So he had a. Shakespearian company. Yeah. Of they were mainly young fresh out of the oven graduates of Carnegie tech. Now. Carnegie Mellon, okay. And really good actors. Yeah. I mean, you probably wouldn't have heard any of them their names now. But. Theater actors in the sixties and seventies. These were the major. Oh, yeah. They want to be the big guys they were just tremendous. And you know, I always thought how how good this possibly have been. And you know, just throwing together a shake an entire hamlet in one week, right? You know, when I became a young and pretentious young actor, I sort of dismissed it in my own memory and someone sent me a real to reel tape of one of the production's real merry wives of Windsor. Just out of nowhere a comedy. We're not a single joke is comprehensible to modern audience. And you heard these young actors performing out of doors, no application and the audience roaring with laughter and the acting was fantastic hit high energy fast as lightning and with incredible diction. It was just exhilarating. And sure enough it created this incredible success over many years. People would come from all over the country to spend a week and see in southern Ohio. It's weird because I'm not to be condescending. But you don't hear about Ohio being cultural mecca well anymore? There. Listen, you you, you know, your pockets across this country. It's amazing how many pockets there are. There's just like, you know, it see like, it's easy to do what you know, what I just did three draw these wines that state, but I know, but I mean, no, no, these artifice levels still exist all over the place in you, John. Yeah. No, San Francisco Ashland, Oregon that that's a big big deal. Yeah. Over the years, and what what's your relationship which takes outside of not having read the that cannon. I mean, I've I've talked a lot on this show with people about how I just can't. It's hard for me to access. Yeah. And then, sir. Ian mckellen? Did it to my face? He did Shakespeare right to face. Did it bring you around? Yeah. Well, I mean, sure I mean, I I understood it I felt the emotions I can understand it. It's you know, if I listen, but it's staying in the pocket, you your? Yes. So you have to give it time and you have to. You have to understand about Shakespeare play when you go to see it. Yeah. You got your seeing it fresh. You're not going to understand the first half hour. Right. And then bit by bit the or emerges, and you begin to appreciate what a great storyteller. He was right. But the trick of Shakespeare is. He was a poet. I mean, and he had all these devices are captivating an audience. Yeah. A lot of it had to do with the beauty of the language. Right. But if you see pretty much any Shakespeare play some of it is in verse. And some of it is in prose right tends to be a sort of class system. Right. The the noble characters will speak in verse. Oh, yeah. And the supernumeraries the the bit parts the rabble like the grave digger hamlet. Yeah. There they will. They'll talk colloquial language. It's the language of four hundred years ago have to it's like watching a French movie with subtitle. Yeah. You you serve gradually get into the rhythm of it. And you know, what I've always my little paradigm for it. Shakespeare, and and all writing for the stage. Yeah. Is a combination of three things. Yeah. The meaning the emotion and the music a meaning is simply making it comprehensible. Yeah. And that's not easy with Shakespeare. Right. You have to get an extremely willing audience. Yeah. That has some. But it surpri I it's amazing. How untutored people can actually be swept away by it? Sure. The emotion is just the emotion of the character is the interaction of Iago and fellow does Dimona. Yeah. And the music is the extraordinary sound of the language the language. Yeah. Why we are still quoting it rush. Why Ian McKellen sat here, and he can do it and sort of dazzling I think he did he did a piece that was about immigrants. I think from us, right? I'm thomas. He's more. What did it was sort of discovered? Pia? Yeah. Thomas more about Thomas more. Yeah. He did it right there as close as you are to me. Just look at me right in the eye. Yeah. How often do you do Shakespeare rarely? Yeah. I did King Lear few years ago. We were King Lear in central park. It's a life and tastic experience. And I did my voglio with the Royal Shakespeare Company and two thousand seven but before then I had not done Shakespeare since I was a kid since. Well, I think nineteen seventy five I was layer tease in hamlet in the park. I I don't know other things come along. You know, learn from Lear. I mean, what was your experience because that's one of those things where actor is ready to take it on you have a certain age. And then it will reveal itself to you lose. What was revealed to you John from Lear? What what did you come out of it feeling different about how I just it just felt incredible to finally stand and deliver that languages Titanic and the emotions are are huge, especially for an old, man. Yeah. And. And it's true. You have to be old enough to play. But you also have to be young enough to play it because it's so incredibly demanding. Yeah. And I did it on the young end. I think I was sixty nine years old wasn't Olivier near death when he did. And and McKellen doing it for the second time in about fifteen years. I guess last year he did it. Well, you one of those guys to that's always seemed to be somewhat. You know, middle aged your entire life. Yes. I remember auditioning for a directed name. Steven porter. Probably before I had a New York job. Yeah. And I was I was auditioning for the young romantic Eric or secondary role in a Moliere play. Yeah. And he said, you know, you're going to grow into your self as an actor. He said, basically what you just said I've always been old. And all I think that I think that comes from growing up doing. I mean, I did do a huge amount of Shakespearean acting as a kid right up until I was like nineteen twenty because you throw yen's. Yeah. Exactly, including when I was a little boy playing mustard seed in midsummer night's dream. What was there when you did that like like having this like, it seems like your your father must have been a passionate guy? Yeah. Was he? Well, he he certainly was when it came to putting on play, right? Yeah. But man of tremendous passion, but at home, and we'll detach. Oh, he was very sweet. Yeah. He was just as sweet and genial kind of home guy. You see him play these bravura roles in Shakespeare amount. I used to imitate him for my friends in grades yet. You know, your dad acting. You would imitate your dad? Yes act. Yeah. Playing Steffano in the tempest, you know, the comic drunkard, and he really opened up. In any your siblings, get into the business? Well, both my sisters were teachers. Yeah. But they did a huge amount of theater in the schools. In fact, my older sister, Robin. She became the arts administrator of the whole unified school district here in Los Angeles creating arts programs, including theater programs for kids. Oh, that's noble. It was noble, and it was a huge success until two thousand eight when they took the money away. All the money went out is so her job became supervising, the dismantling of the program that she had created aren't those real tragedies? That's where they decided to take the money from well tends to be the first thing to go because it's it's not to to all appearances. It's not the thing that leads to academic success and career success might decent children. I it feeds the soul the other half of an education. Well, that's part of your life. Now you. I mean, you do a lot of stuff for the kids. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for noticing. That's sort of my hidden career. Yeah. Flying under the radar. Well, let's go back. So when your kid, you are you just picking up acting by being a rounded? Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I, and I I loved the whole atmosphere me, and my siblings, and even some of my best friend. Yeah. We we considered these young actors in their mid twenties and early thirties are best friends. You know, that's interesting. So you had this input from these young people who are in that that zone of self-discovery in what years was this in the early seventies? Principally the late fifties early sixties. Okay. So the culture hadn't broken up yet. But in the sense of like people doing their own thing, man. Well almost. Yeah. I mean, I I guess my question is where these guys. Like, these men and women that were were sort of mentoring. You just by proximity where they wild bunch. Not really. I mean, no more than most actors are they're young tearaways there. Yeah. They had a lot of fun. Yeah. But they know it was not the revolution had not arrived right in those years. Right. You know, when I started acting seriously for my dad that's eighteen nineteen eighty s literally sixty three sixty four right? And that was just before the deluge. Yeah. Yeah. But he felt it coming. Did. He like was it. No, no. We we. We were in this little extraordinary little bubble. Right. Everything was about about. Shakespeare, right acting. Yeah. And so no. So you're just picking up pointers. He how do you learn to act at that point? Like, I mean, I it was not I was not I certainly didn't intend to be an actor. I didn't wanna be an actor. Yeah. I was I was an artist. I was I was very serious artist painter I painter and print maker. Uh-huh. And I intended in high school in highschool, very serious. Well, I was going to commuting from Princeton, New Jersey. The art Students League to draw nude not nude model. Let's see the students week in New York. Oh, yeah. It's a great old institution on fifty seven still around. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they just went what did you take classes area? Yeah. I mean, I took a serve teenagers drawing in water he act class with a bunch of really good school of visual arts type in New York City kids. So that was that was the goal to. But you know. Yeah. You know? I just I did lots. I did would cuts and and I had extremely good public school art classes by those days. Yeah. But I went to Harvard. Yeah. Mainly because I got into Harvard. It's which was if you want if you seriously wanted to be a painter that was completely wrong thing to do. Well, as you don't study art at Harvard had your family, gone to Harvard know, each course, smart guests got in. Yeah. I had had such a unique childhood, I suppose, you I was such an oddity. And I was you know, I acted and I painted. I was an interesting kid. Yeah. And what was Har what year was that has started in sixty three graduate and sixty seven and as soon as I got there, I fell in the theater gang. And it was all extracurricular, you didn't study it. Right. But there were tremendously talented kids. And was it like was the hasty pudding doing things. I the. Hasty pudding was kind of beneath my dignity of very pretentious. Would. I was an essence aesthete's. Yes. Playing tartufo. What was the was it a was a troop of non theater major? And there was no theater major. We just ran off and did our thing. And but sure at least two thirds of my waking hours are spent and not just theater, but I directed operas and at Harvard at Harvard, I was the president of the Gilbert and Sullivan society did Pat her songs in like six GNSS operatic. It was just an this four years of just exuberant fervent unsupervised creative activity for young performer. And what were you actually majoring in English history and literature and did you do? Well, I did find. Yeah. So so you I guess they're connected. You know, they're definitely connected, but I went off from Harvard. I went right to London on a Fulbright grant to study acting at Lambda. I mean, I was already I could have gone right into the profession. But I for one thing I wanted to going. Yeah. Never been to England. And the rep American repertory was not in. No, it was not. It was not a there was no professional troupe in that Loeb drama center is all students are clean. You had a stage. We had a beautiful facilities. We had professional supervisory staff. Yeah. A staff designer staff to- wreck. So they gave you all that. So they encourage a gave us although we had we stood in and worked. Yeah. We in fact, we we spurned their advice. You know, we we were really arrogant little pricks. Yeah. Back in that means I mean, I think that Harvard. That's not unusual. No, that's it's a it's an abiding characteristic of our right writing. It's part of the application process. Decide whether you're right for this is just how are you? Exactly. So we're so you you got a Fulbright to go to England study at what which which Lambda which is stands for what London academy of music and dramatic art. It's one of the three or four kind of pillars of the community one as rod a Lambda central. And what's the difference? Well, Lamm does the best. No, they actually there's very much a traditional academic training in England. There always has been certain basic things you study like rod is the one with the Royal charter, and it has had all sorts of major, you know, late Albert Finney of yesterday Roddick grad. I never met Albert Finney. And he did some good work. I exchanged wonderful letters with him. But I never met him and Tom Courtney, and oh, yeah. All all these at Lambda. It was always regarded as sort of the proletarian alternative Terada. But now, they're statuses absolutely the same and Lampton incredible institution. See you're coming in with the why Shakespearian experience. Yeah. But I haven't put it to work much. Right. You know, just a couple of productions over the years. And when you say academic in terms of the training. What is that? Like, what does that mean? How they start you out. What do you got to? Oh, Martin Ford fighting and dancing absolutely soared, finding historic dance stage movement voice, diction and. Yeah. Different classes for for diction and vocal projection. Yeah. And then a lot of scene work lot of Shakespeare checkoff Shaw. Uh-huh. It was a an old. It was a classical training. You know, our are Lambda has this D group this one year group? Yeah. Which served compacts the entire three or four years. Oh, you did. That's what I did. And then extended the grant for another year and did what hung around London. You know? It was incredible time end of the sixties. So that's when it all breaks open. It was breaking open then for sure. And and and the theater was incredible back. Then the as when Peter Brooke was doing he was a young, man. Yeah. Peter Hall was the director of the national theatre. And Trevor none became the youngest director ever of the IRS see just hanging out, and you're going to those thing going to everything like, and and you know, the school was nine to five every day. It was really hard work. Yeah. And then the second year when I was I'd completed that one year program just. I basically it was Vietnam time, and I wanted to hang onto my federal grant as long as I could to stay out of the war. Right. And I said renew my grant and I'll find something to do. And I worked out of the war up to a point. And then a certain point. I was drafted. Anyway, you were. Yeah. And what happened I just got out of it. Pure acting. That's what it was like day tended on as if our lives dependence. So with the federal grant you were somewhat protected because they weren't going after people who are engaged that level. Will it was if you stayed in school? Okay. You were you're protected up to a point who was just after I got out of the draft that the draft lottery came in an okay, it was a incredible intense year that particularly nine nineteen sixty eight sixty nine if you think about watershed serve benchmark years in American history. Eight was right up there. I mean, that's the year that Martin Luther King and Bobby Kennedy. Yep. Were assassinated, and then the democratic convention, right, and Nixon beating Humphrey and Watergate all the seeds of what? Well, Watergate was four years later. But there I was in England for two years thinking. A lot of the time thinking, what am I doing here when the country's going all to hell did you feel was it a similar feeling to what we're feeling now? Everybody thought the center was not holding that the whole country was falling apart back in those days. I mean, there was a tremendous anti war an anti draft movement. I graduated from Harvard and literally everybody I know found a way to get out of the draft. So you're England, and you're going to theater, and you're seeing all this great stuff. And how do you know, you got drafted all got a draft notice from my draft board in Trenton, New Jersey? They didn't know I was in England. Yeah. And who they forwarded it along your folks, y'all my folks forwarded it, and I wrote back and said, well, you know, you can't draft me. I'm on a I'm here on a federal grant. And they said, no, we're drafting you. So I went off to a of physic- draft physical at an air force base an RAF airforce base where there was a US presence. Yeah. And a bunch of air force guys. Yeah. Basically said. Don't wanna go. You don't wanna go. All right. Really? I mean, they they they had no dog in the fight. Right. Was army versus air force. Right. So like a football game. So so you just went there, and you didn't have to crazy or I just basically acted like what I was just amplified it yet. Which was what I just said. I'm I have a pathological fear of conflict, and you know, I had I had actually attempted to get out of the draft as a conscientious objector because I objected right war. Right. But they had they had completely discarded that. Yeah. That that that wasn't worth. That was almost like a written application that Rijeka. Right. So I didn't even attempt that three didn't have to cry or she I cry. I cry fainted when they drew my blood. I felt so ashamed of myself for doing that. Well, it was it was like I was acting. Yeah. But I wasn't acting for the right? Reasons, you know, it's I I wasn't acting for an audience and telling story, right, but you feel. We don't have any regrets about that. Though. Do I think I've lived? I sure I've thought that regret has stayed with me. Y-? You know, the that moment for young men. The late sixties is like a third rail of American society, you rarely get guys to tell the story of how they got out of the draft. Because there is a there's a lingering shame to that. I think and yet back in those days, you would get stoned until you're hilarious story to everybody. Right. It was like Alice's restaurant, right? All the big that big hit song that big Arlo Guthrie Sawyer was all about pretending to be crazy to get out of the draft. Now, it didn't work right and the out of the raft. Anyway, because he had he had thrown garbage in the wrong place right year before and they saw that he had a rounded yet. That was a cla- a classic story. Yeah. But we all had a comic store like stand up comedy sharing unless you hadn't gone through the agony. Right yet right up until then you were just a nervous wreck. And afterwards, you had your war story to accept that. It was an anti-war story. Yeah. But it's interesting that this shame sort of lingers because you didn't man up or or or that there's some element of that. I mean, I remember I worked with a wonderful actor named Dennis aren't he's just terrific guy. And we did a film called distant funder, which was not a successful film. We were both playing Vietnam. Vietnam. Bush vets we shot it up in Vancouver, and Danny and I went and actually hung out with these Bush pets and the the Olympic peninsula, the Bush vet guys who just went to live in the woods veterans whose lives were so wrecked of they basically went off the grid went off the grid. Yeah. And we hung out with these guys for three or four days and went to their. To their counseling Mia. And oh God it was. So and I felt I'm just acting the part I feel like such a fraud. Yeah. And then they had been a chopper pilot and Vietnam he'd gone through the whole drill. Yeah. And I said Jenny I didn't go, and I can't get a interacting with these guys. I can't get over the sense of shame. Yeah. He said, John I went to Vietnam, and I can't get over my sense of shame. We're all casualties of that war. And it's it's hard to bring that back to life for people who aren't you know, the over seventy years old, right? And who lived through all that. Yeah. It's heavy because even in retrospect, obviously, I don't under- I can't understand by empathize. I found that you know, moving, but like even knowing that the war was unwinnable and disaster and and him based on and yes, he Hannity you still. You know, like I yet these guys went, and they were they went because they felt they they had to serve their country, and they made colossal sacrificing want. They want to go to jail. Yeah. And they wanna leave the country though. It's it's heavy. It's a very heavy thing. And and back in those days it dominated everybody's men and women, you know, women who felt the terrible guilt of their boyfriends. I've had that conversation with women my age about who their boyfriends who bailed day who bailed or didn't bail. I was in London. With a lot of American guys. We're just basically self exiled. And they didn't know how what they're gonna do. They were hiding out from the day. Didn't know how they were going to get home. When did you go home? I got home at the end of two years study. He went to work for my dad in theater. Yeah. Doing you're acting for your father I acted and directed. And signed. That's great that you had this dad. Yeah, they had a fabulous head start. I worked for him for a year hands on. And then I said no dad, it's time to move that. I gotta go and do this myself. Where'd you go to New York and was out of work for two years? You know? Ironically, I I was hired to direct. Yeah. It was well on my way to being a director, not an actor. Yeah. In fact, Baltimore center stage even offered me job as a associate artistic director. You could have been you coulda had a career as a regional theater. That's right. That's right. You could. And I accepted the job because I had nothing else yet and two weeks later. I got the job. I always wanted which was a year's residency at Longworth theater back when they had a resident company where was that New Haven? So okay. So that was your dream. Was you really that theater? Were that was my world regional theater was what I did. As a matter of fact, I remember my Fulbright grant application they asked the question. What will you do with work? You study? Yes grant, I said American repertory theater, but the second show I did at long wharf a British play with its American premiere. Call the changing room bought a rugby team. And it's changing. Yeah. It got a lot of national press is terrific production came intact to Broadway to forty fifth street, and I had my Broadway debut. Do in that, you know. I never thought I'd get to Broadway. Yeah. And two weeks later two weeks after our opening night. I wanna Tony award for come on. Yeah. It was like back in those days. There was no lag time. I'm sure that. Oh my God. I am the the actor who won a Tony after the shortest after his debut. Probably a lot of a lot of bitter actors what I know resentful. It was a cast of twenty two men and not they weren't entirely celebrating. When I run the best supporting actor would imagine the entire theater community in New York. Like, the fuck is this exactly. Yeah. He certainly how I feel most of the time. So so now you're up and running then back that I really haven't been seriously out of work since then and how long was the focus theatre when did the the for. When did you realize like I'm going to do movies where you always auditioning for films until I mean in the seventies? I that was in one thousand nine hundred seventy three. Yeah. And for about ten years. I did like eighty percent plays. I did twelve Broadway plays and a few movies. I was in all that jazz. Oh, yes. I was in your the producer or director. I'm amazed. You even remember was little part hell of a movie though and rate movie. There was a crew like there were two or three the producer. Exactly. And in fact, so Fossey even hired genuine people to be, oh, you were the more the you're sort of like that the arrogance shit, right, right? And. I I of the embodiment of of all of Fossey's rivals. Right. The did you you played in another director, correct? Or was pretty rival direct. Right rival direct. I remember and everybody speculated who is who's he? I wore sunglasses on the top of my head, right? How prince always done, you know? And but in directing my scene Fossey referenced Gower champion, Mike Nichols, Michael Bennett, and how prince so he was Irving bodyman of all all the people. He was jealous contemptible arrogance. Like, everything every every party, your body was just sort of. Really was and Fossey just loved all that. He was he must have been great to work his fantastic. Yeah. And so okay. She did in the seventies. You did all that jazz? And you did when did you blow out it? Yeah. Blow out. Well, I had known diploma when we were both students. He was a student at Columbia. And I was at Harvard, and how do you know him we met through? We we actually I created a serve summer theatre workshop in Princeton, New Jersey. Yeah. I think the year before my the summer before my senior year of college with a bunch of Columbia guys a few of us Harvard guys and a few of us Columbia, and Brian was a good friend of those guys. Yeah, he came down to see I remember we were doing a Moliere evening to half three Moliere one acts, and I was acting my head off. And I heard this. Wild like banshee laugh from the audience and the audience is were not big audience. They were not big crowds. We would fill the theater about twenty five percent full it the whole enterprise was a huge flop. Yeah. But I heard this Chris screaming laugh that was Brian a poem. And in in many ways, he served godfather my entry into movies. He recommended me to the first movie I was ever in. Then shortly after he hired me for obsession. Yeah. And then I saw obsession and you should see. It's classic old time owns a farm. I mean, diplomas stuff I've movie. Have you seen? Hi, mom, and greetings, those are his wild. Those were when written by Paul Schrader. Yeah. I mean, those you gotta see them because they were very radical films and deniro is in them the he was in high. Mom, I think and greetings. Wow. So mad, but you gotta see them because those were his that's when he was a real renegade. Yeah. And then we'll blow out was well, then he became the master of the Macab, you know, he served embraced suspense in horror. Right. 'cause I always loved that. And then I did raising Cain. Razov that that was being ninety but blow out was great. That was great one. That was one of his really good ones. I don't know what you know, what the sort of how he sees his interpretation of other movies. But he clearly does that on purpose. Oh, yeah. He he he he it's not like he was stealing, right? Always considered it both an Amish and kind of secret in joke. Yeah. He delighted and all that. And what did what about you to playing like, you know, evil fuckers? Well, Bryan, always I was curious. Why why he he thought of me is isn't that? There's this wonderful documentary of Brian. Yeah. It's nothing more than an interview we have a lot of cuts to hit. And he himself said, I don't know. I always thought John lift go would be a good villain. I don't know what he was bemused by the I think it's because he loves the idea of someone who's apparently innocent being diabolical. And I'm your man for that. We've done it a lot. Yeah. Right. The L is a great wave surprising people. You know, when they expect one thing. Yeah. And it turns out to be another. I mean, that's almost the the essence of every kind of drama, right? You know is surprise them. But then well, but like, but luckily because you work so much, you know, when those people that when you do with thing like terms of endearment where people like now, he's something he's going to be evil at some point. This is going to turn. I've seen him in the last movies. Someone's going to get a knife in them. But it goes the other way around I do third rock from the sun for a few years. Yeah. And I'm the last person they think will be evil. Right. I'm just this clueless doofus, and then I do Dexter. You know, couldn't be more evil and a lot of the villain parts. I've played. Yeah. Have a double density. I I loved duality where there's two completely opposite sides to a character. Yeah. In fact, about five or six times I've played my own identically win. Bagley must be testament to your to your range and skill as an actor that people will do that. How many people could they really have do that effectively? Obviously several different directors said no John's a guy for this. Well, I don't know by now I've gone in so many crazy different directions. You know, when Stephen Daldry asked me to play Winston Churchill, I was just. I was astonished and everybody I knew was astonished really. But I think why all just had. Well, he just seen me. Do enough unlikely surprising things he thought would oh what a fun idea or could do this. And we want to would you won the award for that? Right. I want a few awards for that. Yeah. An EMMY award actually Albert Finney rest his soul won an EMMY for playing Churchill to Churchill is as Indian Oldman. Oscar, it's a good prize winning character. He wouldn't have been very pleased. I think I think you would to and you've you've have an Oscar. No, no, no, I've been nominated twice and and I actually presented one of the nominated films. When Billy crystal was an Oscar host, and he he took his eye off the teleprompter. Fly for one second. Yeah. And he introduced me as a two time Oscar winner lift go, I've this is the first time I've ever disabused people of that. I wonder where that. That came in one of quite a few AMI's now six and do you have them all out? No, I don't I I. To tell you the truth that they're in storage. I I mean, it sounds ridiculous. But I've got a lot of these things. And like they're too many of them to put on display. Sure. All the different wars. It's the mid westerner. And may where do you let you have here. Yeah. I live here and to have an apartment in New York. So oh, that's nice. I'm sort of bi-coastal character. So a moving through the movies, though. Like like, I remember like you one of those guys it was sort of, you know, lot of things. Always I feel like a grew up. Always seeing you somewhere. Yeah. Bad penny. No on showing up, but like the twilight zone movie that was Greece. Yes. Roll fabulous. And for working for George Miller. Yeah. You know of Mad Max fury road. He directed your episode. He directed. My episode is the first I'd done a few movies before then including bar. Sure. But until then nobody knows. No, film director had asked ever asked me to do more. They'd all asked me to do less. But George nothing was ever enough more. I wanna see your face crack is just and it was incredibly liberating. That was the first time. I brought all my sort of bravura theater chops to to the movie. Really? Yeah. So like everything you are. Yeah. Bam. Ma'am. I wanted it. You got it because you are sweating and throw. Yeah. Total freakout off nonstop. It was like a twenty minute heart attack. Oh, man. It's really fun. Did you work with him again, ever, not George? No. No, no. And I loved him in terms of endearment. Like, you were the sweet guy. Yeah. Yeah. That was at the Bank that. Yeah. It was about a two or three year stretch. Which was I came out to when I met my wife, I came to LA we got married. So you left New York you'll have to theater the ongoing theater the seventies. Yeah. And came out to L LA on what movie did you decide? Like, I gotta go to LA when I decided because Mary when we got married I moved in with her. She was a tenured professor and out here. Yeah. At UCLA. And I couldn't does for you've been married twice. Yeah. Yeah. She's my second life and. And I just I was just sort of a time for change in my life. I guess. Yeah. Moved out and moved in with her and bam. Bam. Bam. Bam. I did garp twilight zone. Yeah. Terms of in baron footloose. Yup. Buck ru banzai all in the space of of about two and a half years, and they were all wildly different character parts of popular movies in different ways. Yeah. I'm a number big hit movies, right? Terms terms banzai. They'll have kind of a cult following. It's still does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? Wherever you go. There. You are. Yeah. And laugh while give giveaway. Yeah. It was fine. I wish your listeners could see your lap. Hey, no, high last mile. I'd forgotten that one. Yeah. Mung pretty capable. That was like a me Mun before the internet like that was of the people were saying. Of that guy. Monkey bowl is the most lunatic character ever, I loved it nineteen Eighty-four. That's right. It was just because I remember that being around, you know, things are around. What was your monkey boy line laugh while you can monkey boy? You get a few of those. I once went to did an assembly my my son's school when he was hey, I school, and I did my own. It was such a self congratulatory thing to do I gave myself a life achievement award. Oh, and I provided all ask you to do that. No. No, no. I it was a joke. I instead of having clips just quoted all my great one line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I had a whole bunch of some of the other ones. Well, Roberta Muldoon said I had a great pair of hands. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And while you can monkey boy. And and in terms of deer meant, you must be from New York. You know, I gave the Harry and the hendersons how low. Yeah. Yeah. And then it was long predated. Hello, dick, Stor Morgan that became a. Yes. So you did third rock for years. Yeah. That was six years. You did a lot of television here narrow other things that people do the show up and wave and make a joke and ever and then go away. Yeah. But but third rock was like a lot right? Yeah. We did one hundred thirty eight episodes and had a fantastic time. I mean, it was really a deliriously fun show. People must know you for that. Right. Probably you played H L Minkin. Now that you mentioned it. I did play. She'll know on Ken burns. He I'm one of the his Goto voices. I've been on four or five of Ken burns documentary. Didn't do the Vietnam win though. Did you know? Hey OD. I think. Yeah. Yeah. I know I would always do little characters. Little letter's being read. I was on the Roosevelt one voice works fun. Right. Well, it's no different from this. I we're doing voice work. Right. You get to do. No. But you know, it's it's fun. It's a lark. I loved Chris rock's whole riff on and voicing animated films at the AUSSIE. It's just you know, when I when I did the voice of Lord Farquaad and in Shrek. Yeah. I did it about four years before the movie came out. Yeah. And it was this whole new technology shack, right or innovative film. And I would go in and let on some, you know, Lord Farquaad and go away for about six months, and they'd come in to have me. Do another fifteen minutes to do another little. Yeah. I may be dropped in three or four times over a couple of years. Right. It put it all together. I spent about forty five minutes on it. Right. And. Four years later outcomes, this phenomenal film, and it's my voice I've long since forgotten ever saying these things. Yeah. You know? And and and they're it. It's forever now. Yeah. Yeah. Like, my producer Brendan. He's got a son a couple years ago when his kid was six his wife got tickets to see Peter and the wolf at Carnegie Hall, and when she told him he was not happy because he's he's sensitive. He gets worried about large places and big sound causing anxiety. And he said, no, I'm not going pro the tickets in the trash and she says, but John with go. Is going to be the narrator, and there's a long pause. And he says, okay, I'll go. No, this is my these are my people. Yes. For about a like a two year window of opportunity, then they they grow up and thinking, I'm an asshole. But no. But I I've spent a lot of time entertaining like the three to seven year olds. Yeah. When did that happen was that of your own making because you've written books you've done. Yeah. It's it's a very nice thing. I mainly came. You know, I had a baby sister ten years younger than me. There were four of us siblings. I was the third oldest and she was ten years younger than me. And I was like her third parent. Right. Sara, Jane, I always entertained her. Right. And always the main go to babysitter. And then my own kids came along. And I just developed songs I taught myself guitar just to sing sing kids songs kids, and then it was classrooms and benefits for the schools and assemblies and for their schools or for you became known to the guy who did. That not really until third rock from the sun. Yeah. And I at that point. It was like somebody suggested you do something with your kids stuff. Yeah. And I made of home VCR cassette. Yeah. Video cassette, and then I made an album. Yeah. With some terrific musicians and a great record producer, and it it of your songs at my song and also old novelty standards. Yep. Cab Calloway, and Betty, boop. Shirley temple songs. He has retooled as kids song with great serve old time jazz orchestration, and I literally called information for Carnegie Hall. Yeah. And dialed Carnegie Hall and told them I have an album. Yeah. I want to send it to you. And I want to give a concert with a big orchestra six months later. You know, I I had my Carnegie Hall debut. I performed there three or four times. I I've I've actually. Done kids concerts with about a dozen major US orchestras big hour long concerts, mostly my own songs, and you sing them. I sing them. I could see you one right now. Okay. About not going. I'm in our right now, I I say, I'll send you one got two dogs of fanny and bloop that we had to dose to Fanny's all white blues. Kind degree the never ever fight and never run away. They're not too smart. But they're Laura Len crew. Ooh, there's nothing. I'd trade for him. A fanny and blue at central. I mean, they love it. They go nuts, and they're very interactive concerts. I haven't actually had time to do this for about three or four years. But I used to do it a lot. Yeah. And it was always this wonderful counterpoint entertaining adults right because kids are electric. I mean, they're an incredibly difficult audience. But if you can control them, yeah. And stimulate them. And then calm them down. Right at them to really listen and hold their attention for an entire hour. Get them squealing with joy and totally silent for its fan feeling. 'cause I always say, you know, what an actor really wants is a key to achieve is suspension of disbelief. Yeah, you never get that entirely with an adult audience. Always know they're watching a fiction, right? But kids. Yeah. They haven't figured anything out yet. They think my God. I'm seeing the real thing. So. And they have no irony at all. Yeah. They just completely by anybody at all. Yeah. So excited to buy it. They're so excited, and and must feel great. It feels great. And they they grow up and turn their backs on me until they discover me and Dexter, right? Or they discover you when they're teaching their own kids stuff. That's right. That know what? I mean. The most wonderful thing is to hear parents say, you know, their kids. Love my albums from. Yeah. It's it's a wonderful or my books. Yeah. Because that's stays. It's evergreen, man. Yeah. You know what? I mean. It's like, you know, the those songs like even the ones that you chose to do that aren't your songs that you know, them for a reason they never go away. Yeah. And you can make those things that never go away for kids generation them. It's an amazing thing. It was great fun. Also going through old tin penalty because back in the thirties. These ridiculous in getting 'can-do. Sure. Yeah. Or is he dotes? Yeah. They wrote these idiotic songs for commercial adult consumption, but they're wonderful songs for kids. I mean when I was a kid, Danny Kaye was this huge thing for we loved. We had this album that we must have played a million times Danny at the palace doing all these. And I've done several of them on my Al how you have. Yeah. Danny. He was a song. And Dan, what was this big movie? Danny Ken, Hans Christian Andersen. Court jester. God you mentioned that to anyone under fifty now and they have to release strike and pictures face. I mean, I like your hands. He was younger than it was I I'm not that old enough to know those things when I was younger. I was very obsessed with old entertainment. Well, vaudeville I mean. Yeah, vaudeville it's it reemerges in different strains. Oh, yeah. I never goes away ever goes away. Did you see that standing Ali movie? No. I used to see it is it good. It's so good. Yeah. I went so mad that that it doesn't seem like a lot of people are seeing. Well, it's because who knows about standard Ali any. But that, but you know, that what they look like, that's all we really know even every generation, right? That has seen those black and whites is the whatever's available when you're out hid. But maybe you're right. But the thing is is that those two guys John C Reilly and Steve Coogan, really, you know, give them depth thing. Will I real see make them people? And there are people in show business and their people in a difficult point in show business in their years. And it's just it's just we will lose it. I will watch it. So what's this play? You're doing. That's the one I'm doing Laurie Metcalf. It's called Hillary and Clinton is it is it New York owned broad bouquet and who's plays at it's a wonderful young writer. Yeah. Named Lucas Nayef h and Eighty-eight, and he wrote he's written a lot of plays. But he wrote off on Broadway doll's house to a couple years ago and Laurie played the title role and won the Tony award Ford. Have you worked with her before she came and did a three episode arc on third rock from the sun? Okay. Was hilarious. And she was nominated for an EMMY for it as a guest as a guest artist. She's intense, man. She is the greatest actress. Yeah. Getting up on stage with her. I can't wait. Yeah. She is so sharp such an attack. Yes. So smart. Yeah. It's really good. And the play is really good. What's it about? Well, it's about Bill and Hillary. At an ex at a very crucial moment in their history is takes place the night the day before and the day after the New Hampshire primary in two thousand eight when she was running not against Trump, but against Obama. Yeah. And and it's it's it Essent. It's kind of like the crown where there these very extremely well known public figures the everybody's obsessed with but nobody really knows what's inside their lives. Yeah. Private lives. And it's it's a kind of hypothetical and speculative play. But is this guy is such a tremendous writer. It's it's got it's got the dramatic structure of an Ibsen plates. Very funny play. But it's got turns of plot that the storytelling is just great. They don't they don't write plays like this anymore. I just love it must great. So to play Bill Clinton. How do you not make? That a caricature. Well, it's a kind of a deal is made with the audience almost instantly outcomes. Laurie just as Laurie and says, basically, don't even don't worry. We're not even trying to imitate these people. It's a it's just an alternate take on them. So so I'm not making the slightest effort to look like him or sound like him. You'll see you gotta see it. It's going to be just tremendous. It's a four character play who the other two care. I I don't think I'll tell you. 'cause one of them's a big surprise. Oh can't spoil it. No spoilers. That's right. Got it. And well, it sounds interesting. And certainly wanted to you guys together that's crazy now that'd be it's going to be something. And what what what what's this? What's the Fox News movie? Well, I'm playing Roger Ailes. How is that playing another monster? Well, it all depends on how you look at him objectively. Yes, he was a monster. But whenever I definitely never I play monster. I shake hands with share you give him the if you man, it's a terrific script by Charles Randolph. Go wrote the big short is directed by. Jay Roach weasel, wonderful director. He does good comedy movies. Right. And this cast it's me, but the other major characters are the women at FOX. It's really about the women's response to the culture plays Megan Kelly again, Megan Kelly is played by Charlie's thera Nokia. And and Nicole Kidman right Gretchen Carlson Margot Robbie Allison Janney New Britain. Kate McKinnon is it's the most extraordinary powerful. Great great actresses at that is a powerful bunch of women there. And it's such a smart. I mean, you never know you're inside at all. But have you seen a cut? No, no. When's it out? Will you know? It's a very very glorified independent film. I don't it's not a studio film. It's not slated. I don't think it's even titled yet. But it's really going to be good. I think well, yeah, I felt great acting those scenes, and they're and they're very challenging scenes. There's you know, you we've been obsessed with the metoo movement and all and the downfall on these harassers last couple of years, but you never I don't think I have seen it accurately pro-trade. I mean, there's no way of accurately recreating what actually happened behind closed doors right of seeing exploring the other side of it. Yes. And and in-depth like all of the. What's most fascinating is all the different reactions of all the different women. Yeah. Because, you know, some people for all sorts of complex reasons have to either accommodate or not accommodating defy or protest, sue or accept and everyone everyone in the film faces a deep moral dilemma, including including ails himself Mars. I'm concerned. Yeah. You know, Connie Britton plays this fascinating part of his wife. Allison plays his attorneys, Susan estrogen who was a feminist and a great advocate for women and protecting women Feth complicate the conflict area complex. It's a complex story. And and the background. Of course is the birth of Fox News. Roger Ailes created Fox News and his downfall has all kinds. Of resonance with what's happening right now. Yeah. Oh that sounds exciting. It's all done. Right. It's all shot, they're cutting. And Jay's very happy. Oh, good. Sent me an Email saying, wow, this is really working good. So good. That's great. I met him on a plane briefly. Yeah. So he's going to do the play. That's coming out. And what else you that's enough? I'm writing a book. Really? Yeah. About yourself. No. Oh, it's. No, I've done that. You have gone a couple of. No, I I it is. So I it's a project in such infancy in infancy. I hesitate even talk about wary to it's tirico doggerel verse on on on the subject of the Trump administration. And all these astounding characters. I mean, if just look at it and an actor looking looking at this list of characters there's about fifty of them who are so unbelievably bizarre. Yeah. Comic appalling horrific the worst. Yeah. The work. They're they're they are. They are almost as if they are satirical. Yeah. It's like what's doggerel verse? Well, it's doggerel versus it's nonsense. Verse is like Lewis, Carroll and Edward Lear. They're going to do a funny poetry, it's comedy. I to me the the only way I. I can deal with my kind of chronic low level depression about the state of this country is to make some sort of comic comment on it. Yeah. I'm up on it. Now, I'm up on the decline. Well, let's you're up on the declared that phrase. It's not going to last forever. I'm an optimist by nature. Oh, good. I I think I am. But I don't know. I think it's just it's it's some sort of denial thing. Of course, it is. And but I is we do forget, it's it's almost like, you know, you can get addicted to a streaming drama. You know, create for Netflix Amazon. Right. I try to think of this as the streaming drama of our lives when I think back to my young years. Yeah. One of the great villains of my childhood was Richard Nixon. Sure. All through the fifties. Yeah. Yellow springs, Ohio. He was the one of the major he and Joe McCarthy and ROY Colin those were the great boogeyman, right? As a result his comedown in nineteen seventy three or four while it took a while. But when it came it was one of the great moments of elation in my child. I think I have that coming. Good thing. There's a second. Come. We all have that. Did you go? I read that that you gave a commencement at Harvard number the first actor to do so yes, I am only so far. And was that was that a big moment or no, oh, it was wonderful. Yeah. Tastic as a matter of fact, I used my children's books is kind of the theme. I I wrote a children's book for the occasion, it was a lot of fun because that year there had been a kind of outrage there, then president Lawrence Summers had made an offhand comment about women not being suited for Sino rights. And I it was really cost him his presidency. There was such an outrage. Yeah. And that outrage was boiling all year long. So I'm convinced they invited me to give the commencement speech. Because I was least offensive person they could think of. Yeah. And I decided to write a children's book for the occasion to give boilerplate commencement speech. But ended with something that I had done. Yeah. As I the my theme was creative be useful. Be practical be generous. I said, okay, creative created a book for practical? It's going to be published. Yeah. Useful. Well, it's going to help poor. Oil on troubled waters here at Harvard this year. Uh-huh. It's about a mouse. Of little girl. Mouse name a halio who happens to be brilliant at science. And it the the the laughter just rolled across these twenty thousand people sitting outside, and I then recited this verse children's book called the halio mouse goes to college, and it was all about a brilliant little science student who graduating from from Harvard yet. And I said, I dedicated it to the class of two thousand five and all my proceeds went to their class gift. So I was that was my little homily. And you always see you published it, and it's probably it's a terrific book of good, and I got a standing ovation, and I performed an encore of one of my children's songs. Great. I stuck it to the man he was seated right behind me. Nobody was very gentle. It I was not. I was not I did not use into you weren't going. Then. No. But it's like, I couldn't let the moment. No doubt. Without giving some nod to the thing that had obsessed the campus all year long, and you did it from a child's perspective. Yes. Right. Which is which. Made everybody process it that way. Yeah. It was an intellectual thing. Right, right. Yeah. That's great. Well, it's great talking to you, man. Oh god. Are we done? Yeah. I think so it's wonderful talking to you, Mark. And you're just you do such great things with this. I really proud to be on it. Oh, thanks. Good luck with the play. Thank you. Come. See you promise me, you'll come to see going to New York. I wanna see a couple of plays. I'll see that one. See the the the Miller play. Yeah. Yeah. And Tracy's a good friend of yours. We were new friends. It's weird. When you're middle aged and making friends, and I you know, I talk about it a lot. But you know, we've spent time together we've gone out and eight and I've seen his plays such a bright, man. Yes. I like making them laugh. He's a good audience for the somehow. I don't I don't know him. Very well. But I've I've I saw him at the Steppenwolf years ago in a great good actor. Yeah. He's terrific actor. Yeah. And he's plays. Good. This. The new one down Marquette. Yes, I heard you talking about it. All. It sounds if you're certain type of fella it's going to relate to little hard. You're gonna it's going to resonate with you in ways and make you comfortable when that at one that's one of the things we try to do. That's what for all. Right. Thank great to talk to you. Okay. That was great. I love that guy. Don't forget studies show that security systems deter burglars. Which is why securing your home is truly in assessing. So let me recommend the brilliant security system built by our friends at SimpliSafe at simply say, they believe fear has no place in a place like home. So they made simply safe ridiculously smart with twenty four seven monitoring for just fourteen ninety nine a month. Yeah. To get home security you can trust to SimpliSafe dot com slash W. F today that simply safe dot com. So WTN. And now the now I will pray Craik my. Cheeses book. You know, it's like some days and now I will play play. Now I will play play play guitar play. Oh, God damnit play. Here. We go. Vilmar lives.

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