Aired 2 weeks ago 0:56
KYW 24 Hour News | KYW Newsradio 1060
Pro wrestler King Kong Bundy dies at age 61
From the news
Aired 2 weeks ago 0:34
10 10 WINS 24 Hour News | 10 10 WINS
King Kong Bundy, star pro wrestler, has died at age 61
Aired 2 weeks ago 0:18
The WB Show | Biz Talk Radio
WWE legend King Kong Bundy dies at 61
Aired 4 months ago 5:18
The Complete Guide to Everything
King Kong Discussed on The Complete Guide to Everything
Aired 4 months ago 3:51
King Kong Discussed on /Film Daily
Aired 4 months ago 74:35
King Kong The Musical
We took a field trip to Broadway this week, to visit the biggest ape in the world: King Kong. There was singing, dancing and a big puppet, so needless to say we were intrigued. Also, they were selling very expensive booze at the theater, so we tried that too.Thanks to our sponsors this week:The Great Courses - Grab a digital copy of Fundamentals of Photography for Only $9.99 or get unlimited access to enjoy this course, and so much more– with a special FREE TRIAL to The Great Courses Plus exclusively at TheGreatCoursesPlus.com/Guide.Robinhood - They're giving listeners a FREE stock like Apple, Ford, or Sprint to help build your portfolio! Sign up at guide.robinhood.com.
The Complete Guide to Everything
Aired 4 months ago 67:59
Water Cooler: Video Game Strategy Guides, Cooking Shows, American Vandal, King Kong, Bohemian Rhapsody & Outlaw King
On the November 6, 2018 episode of /Film Daily, /Film editor-in-chief Peter Sciretta is joined by /Film managing editor Jacob Hall, weekend editor Brad Oman, senior writer Ben Pearson and writers Hoai-Tran Bui and Chris Evangelista to talk about what we’ve been up to at the Water Cooler. You can subscribe to /Film Daily on iTunes, Google Play, Overcast, Spotify and all the popular podcast apps (here is the RSS URL if you need it). Opening Banter: Who voted today? At The Water Cooler: What we’ve been Doing:Peter celebrated Halloween at the West Hollywood Halloween carnival, updated his Apple Watch and it ended up bricking his device, and went to Disneyland which is in a weird week transition between Halloween and Christmas Time, and I interviewed the directors of Ralph Breaks The Internet. Brad has been battling a hellish sinus infection, went to Ghostbusters in Concert, returned home from Utah Jacob bought a weighted blanket and it is amazing. Hoai-Tran had her going away party at the Players Club, and attended a Friendsgiving before meeting Ryan and Shane from Buzzfeed Unsolved. Chris VOTED, because it’s the right thing to do, damn it. What we’ve been Reading:Jacob has temporarily abandoned real books because he caved in and bought some video game strategy guides. What we’ve been Watching:Peter saw an early screening of Ralph Breaks the Internet, and finally watched American Vandal season one. Brad saw Bohemian Rhapsody and started watching Chef’s Table. Jacob is enjoying the new Universal Monsters Blu-ray box set, caught up with Skyscraper, is nearing end of ER season 8, and finally started watching season 5 of The Great British Baking Show. Chris watched the newly added, older episodes of Great British Bake Off/Baking Show, The Nun, the new cut of Outlaw King. Ben watched King Kong, Homecoming King, Patriot Act, and tried watching The Night Comes For Us but had an Ip Man marathon instead Hoai-Tran has been watching Netflix’s Queer Eye. What we’ve been Eating:Aside from a cheat day at Disneyland, Peter has been on his diet and has reached 20 pounds lost. Brad tried Hot Cocoa Hershey’s Kisses and is celebrating the return of White Fudge covered Oreos. What we’ve been Playing:Jacob is still working through Red Dead Redemption 2, tried out The Mummy Demastered and he picked up Diablo 3 on the Nintendo Switch. Hoai-Tran has been blasting Ariana Grande’s “thank u next” and Carly Rae Jepsen’s “Party for One” while packing. Other articles mentioned: Red Dead Redemption 2 is a criticism of power fantasies All the other stuff you need to know: You can find more about all the stories we mentioned on today’s show at slashfilm.com, and linked inside the show notes. /Film Daily is published every weekday, bringing you the most exciting news from the world of movies and television as well as deeper dives into the great features from slashfilm.com. You can subscribe to /Film Daily on iTunes, Google Play, Overcast, Spotify and all the popular podcast apps (RSS). Send your feedback, questions, comments and concerns to us at email@example.com. Please leave your name and general geographic location in case we mention the e-mail on the air. Please rate and review the podcast on iTunes, tell your friends and spread the word! Thanks to Sam Hume for our logo.
Aired 4 months ago 56:01
EPISODE 49: The haunting of an outlaw king (Outlaw king review, our fantasy VS films, The Haunting of Hill House review and more)
Hello Filmy People!This week we go all Netflix on ya asses with a double review, first up is The Outlaw King, After being crowned King of Scotland, legendary warrior Robert the Bruce is forced into exile by the English and leads a band of outlaws to help him reclaim the throne. Its the unofficial sequel to Braveheart. We then dive into the latest and greatest in the world of news with a touching tribute to the late great Stan Lee. We then go to streaming gem round 2which is our (very late) review of the Haunting of Hill house. We then do our feature for the week: With pre-production starting on Kong Vs Godzilla this week, what movie characters would you like to see cross over? That and a whole bunch of film stuff from two idiots with unqualified opinions who like to talk filmy.
Talk Filmy to Me
Aired 22 hrs ago 27:03
Hello and welcome to Monaco twenty fours. The urban est show all about cities we live in standing in for and you talk this week. I'm Carlotta rebelo coming up on the program is a humongous reclamation project and the plan is to build a brand new island of Lantau Hong Kong has announced its most embellishes if a structure project yet, what can it really help the city solve its housing crisis. And how to locals feel about it? We also hear about a new right sharing company sweeping over the Brazilian market aimed exclusively to FEMA passengers and drivers all that plaza spotlight on a small Swiss town of Baden, and how it sparked of a wider narrative about urban development in the region. That's all coming up right here on the urban est with me Kerr, Lotte rebelo. So very warm. Welcome to this episode of the urban est. We're starting in Hong Kong to follow a story that's been making headlines all week about an ambitious plan to create a new metropolis on man-made islands. This is the city's most expensive infrastructure project ever. And as expected not everyone is excited about it. Monaco's Ben Ryland joined our Hong Kong bureau chief James chambers to discuss this controversial project, and how it aims to change the city. Let's listen in the island of Lantau might not be that familiar to listeners from all over the world. But if you have visited Hong Kong by plane in the last twenty years, you would have landed at the airport, which is based on Lantau. It's the biggest island in Hong Kong. That's not Hong Kong island. There's not many people that actually live on the island compared to Kowloon and Hong Kong Weiland. There's lot of mountains and beaches, and it's very much. Kind of a protected area of Hong Kong. So most of the time. The only reason you will go to Lantau is either to fly from the airport or to visit one of the many beaches along the south side. So this idea that is in the pipeline now to give these islands of big huge makeover, it's pretty ambitious isn't it just give us a brief indication of will the scale of of the project, I up this is a a humongous reclamation project and the plan is to build a brand new island of Lantau, which will total seventeen hundred hector's and the price has been put on this has been it's been some six hundred twenty four billion Hong Kong dollars, which is about seventy billion euros and the local newspaper South China Morning post has provided a helpful comparison. And that was the same size as the entire GDP in two thousand seventeen so we're talking about huge investment. And it's equals about how. Half of Hong Kong's fiscal reserves. And the plan is to build in the first phase over two hundred fifty thousand new houses, the roots of this gigantic investment is try and solve one of Hong Kong's biggest and apprentice problems, which is a shortage of housing so out of those over quarter of a million new apartments over seventy percent of the moving Mark for public housing. So this grand investment is trying to solve an even bigger problem. A lot of the time when we project like this that come with such massive price tags. One of the key criticisms tends to be all this is just a vanity project. We didn't spend this much money. But of course, in this case, the whole idea is that yes, we do need to spend as much money because there is via shortage of space of housing and of room to do all sorts of things and Hong Kong is growing that really what the government is trying to say here. That's definitely the case. I interviewed the chief executive Carrie Lam just before she took office into. Two thousand seventeen and the one thing that she made clear back then is that she wanted to solve Hong Kong's housing problem at the time that sounded extremely I'm bishops, and I doubted her ability to take on this problem. But under two years later, she's she's announced this this huge length out tomorrow vision to try and tackle that head on. And clearly she's not afraid to use Hong Kong's quite ample reserves to tackle this problem the idea of reclaiming land while it's not popular at all with environmentalists. It really is the only solution that will kind of get a broad base of support from Hong Kong because one of the other options is to stop building on the country parks in Hong Kong that is something that no one here really wants. They might come surprise to many people who haven't been here. But the majority of Hong Kong is actually green land and mountains and these have been up to now protected. So the fear is that once you stop building on. Lines. And then there'll be no stopping and Hong Kong will lose its it's green lung so carry lemon and her government to being investigating ways of finding new space for housing without encroaching on that land. And the only one that seems to be the least controversial is is to reclaim land. Because the other options are some quite wacky building on top of the massive container. Port is one example. They're also planning to build on popular golf course in the new territories. So the government is having to investigate every single potential idea. And this one is the only one that could build sufficient housing to tackle Hong Kong's problem. Perhaps not surprising. That Hong Kong dwellers don't wanna lose their precious Greenspace, but just looking more at the coasting here that does seem like a pretty sky high price tag. So the government is saying that the cost actually isn't so bad because when you take the entire cost an average it out of the ten or so years, it would take to actually get this place up and running. It's actually only going to cost about. Fifteen billion Hong Kong dollars annually over fifteen years now in government speak. I'm led to believe fifty billion annually is actually quite affordable that oppose the opposition his saying that's not quite true because that's Beijing. The costs on last year's figures, and that if you take into account inflation the money spent his actually going to be potentially more than one trillion dollars. That's that's an awful lot of money isn't a deep concerns about that kind of price tag affair. I certainly think the concerns affair because the government has admitted that it's uncommon or rare for them to actually put a figure on such a big infrastructure project at this early stage. Reclamation is not supposed to start until twenty twenty five and the first people on expensive move into the apartments until twenty thirty two. This is still a long way off. But the fact that they put a figure on it. This week has raised a lot of concerns in Hong Kong for a start that figure will eat into. To Hong Kong's fiscal reserves. And I don't think anybody here expects that figure of six hundred twenty four billion Hong Kong dollars to be at all accurate. Hong Kong government is like any other governments around the world. They put us figure on the infrastructure project. And then surprise surprise when we actually get closer to the time. And and as construction goes on that figure creeps up and up and up on the final one could be double that or even more. When you think about the scale of this project. I feel like seventy billion euros would be a bit of a snip when this is actually completed in the twenty thirties. I mentioned the real figure will be much much higher. One of the key things that I find when you look at project like this really no matter where they had been in the world. One of the greatest difficulties is really creating a community from scratch, it's incredibly hard to do that because often communities really evolve all by themselves over time. And there's not really any one particular thing that controls whether a community grows and a good way or bad way. When you look at this part of Hong Kong as it stands. Now. Let's just fast forward fifteen or twenty years. Can you imagine this being somewhere that would be an incredibly popular place for Hong Kong dwellers to really want to move to an Stott alive, and and maybe create some sort of street level lives as well? Well, there's been a lot of press about the so-called ghost towns in China where they've built these huge developments and no one's living. But you know, Hong Kong has got the opposite problem, and there's not enough land there not enough apartments, and everyone is screaming out for apartment of their own. You know, one of the core social problems in Hong Kong is the fact that a lot of young people can't afford their own apartment. And so they end up living in a tiny apartment with parents way beyond their teens where into twenties and thirties, and that has knock on affects all kinds of things in Hong Kong, and for some people it's the root of all the political tensions. That's in the city when these apartments come online the waiting list is going to be insane. There's no risk that these houses on going to be occupied. And this island is going to rise out of the become a mini city overnight. You know, we're talking about two hundred sixty thousand flats in phase one maybe if average two per flat, which is about half a million overnight to your point about whether it can actually become a community with baking, actually, get the street level activity rights. I guess that's a matter of correct planning and hopefully Hong Kong government can get in the right experts and expertise to make that work. So there won't be a problem with actually filling these flats the waiting lists are very very long and Hong Kong has a very long history of building new towns. There's ones in Chunquan. Oh, for example, which is of a similar. Size in terms of flats which is built on reclaimed land. And if you go that today, it's actually quite a good example of what can be done in a plan town as bike pods. There's sports facilities. It's on the coast. So in terms of this example, the lente its vision, I imagine it would be extremely popular. Just finally James even is this project goes ahead, and it works, and it's a great success. The Oltman problem that Hong Kong is facing still won't be solved by this Willett because zoom ably there will be more growing pains in the future. And then even more and even more is Hong Kong, maybe staring into a future dilemma where it simply can't grow geographically anymore. And if so I mean, that's going to be a much bigger problem, isn't it? That's true. You know, these flats will come online in the early twenty thirties. And even then there won't be enough. Flat sued to meet the needs of Hong Kong, the big conversation here, which is a very sticky political one is that the only way Hong Kong can. Meet its housing needs is if people are willing to live in the mainland Chinese cities that within easy commuting distance of Hong Kong listens. Might remember that does this huge bridge. That is linked Hong Kong, Macau and mainland. Chinese city called Jew. High is a high speed train that no can whisk you to Shenzhen Guangzhou into short amount of time. So there's people here, certainly probably developers who think that the only solution for Hong Kong is for people to be willing to live in mainland China. It's probably early to start thinking about that now, but in twenty forty seven that kind of physical border between Hong Kong and China will disappear. So that whole idea of commuting to the city will become more and more reality of the lot of people on necessarily comfortable with the idea of living in mainland China right now, but in twenty or thirty years time, maybe the only option that was Monaco's Hong Kong bureau chief. James chambers in conversation with Ben Ryland. Why not take a wonder into the wonderful world of Monaco with an annual print subscription you'll receive ten issues of the magazine year plus are seasonal specials. The forecast and the escapist subscribers to our one year plus premium package is also received our new annual the Monaco drinking and dining directory, and that's not all age of our plans comes with a free tote bag to live at your door. We invite all fans of the Ernest described today and receive a special ten percent discount on any of our year long. Subscriptions, simply visit Monaco dot com forward slash urban est. That's never been a better time to sign up Monaco, keeping an eye on the air on the wall. Now urbanism is more than mega cities. We all know about the challenges big cities face, but what about the small ones, and how do they fit into metropolitan regions are contributing editor Jessica bridgier brings us a small portray Tova small town Badin in Switzerland. And she explains why despite ticker urban area, his Sparta of some big questions about future urban development. A fifteen minute train ride from Cirque central station along the limit river brings you to Baden Switzerland, along with its close sister town of N at Baden about twenty three thousand people call Baden home. It is a small jewel in a line of places along the limit part of a fast-developing valley that is split between canton Cirque in canton, Argo smaller cities like Baden are vital to the future of their larger metropolitan neighbors as cities grow into complex metropolitan regions the world over the limit begins Incirlik and flows for thirty five kilometers to where it meets the RA river. It was once an industrial river with factories and textile mills in rail sort in yards along its stretch along with small towns to house workers one of the main rail corridors Switzerland, also travels next to the Lamont transporting people and goods to greater Switzerland. And beyond. Yet, what once fed industry now drives development and the challenges allowing small welled planned in historical places to remain themselves as well as improving existing cities and towns that suffer from past poor planning decisions avoiding urban sprawl creating desirable places to live in preserving the important landscapes of this green blue and gray corridor are essential to the limit valley and part of metropolitan Zurich and its future Baden and at Baden are both commuter towns. But also have their own industry, the Brown Boveri company. Now, the international juggernaut. Obey was founded in Baden in eighteen ninety one both Bodman and at Baden attract people who wish for a bit more green a bit more space than what they could find enduring famous football players media personalities in corporate science, all call Baden an end. Modern home and at Baden, the smaller sister celebrates two hundred years of independence from Baden this year. What started as a tax dispute is less of a division now and more of an inseparable partnership with the limit river flowing between in many bridges to unite the two pathways along the river lined tower plane trees give way to forested edges punctuated by swimming areas. Prime jogging paths reveal surprising beauty minutes from the center of town. The landscape around Baden is marked by small forested ridges leading down to the river with terraced housing on their less steep sides, large vineyards mixed with housing plots in the landscape some of this Warren production belongs to Baden itself in some to the three branches of the local Wetzel family who produce excellent wines right in town, complete with a locally well known spring wine fest trot, Taga farmland include. Grazing pastures for cows, and sheep is visible for many places in town tractors pass on the roads in in the evening cowbells carry a sunset colors, the ridges. In housing raid below this mixed cultural landscape, and well preserved older city elements are blended with tightly controlled new development, retaining central notes and e central character. Baden Baden have done an excellent job in recognizing what they have. And in meeting the demands for urban growth Baden is an open city with nice shops and restaurants. The city has also reused its industrial heritage buildings which now has small scale fabrication businesses brewery artists to tell us in more the former Oberland factory complex at the river is home to local artists Rolando Bernini. And Anne Marie our in summer. They hold an open studio along with other local artists, which spills. Out onto an old power generation island, a remnant of industry passed on the opposite Bank is the busy construction site of the Mario butter designed thermal baths, a one hundred sixty meter long complex scheduled to open in twenty twenty one in a town named for in famous since Roman times as a spot for bathing further along the limit riverside cafes tribe. Goot in Qaida overflow in the warmer months. There's a peacefulness a slow nece here in Baden a counterpoint to the urban areas that many favor over the very relative bustle of Zurich if projections about growth and development in metropolitan Zurich proceed is expected. A lot of transformation will happen along the limit valley. Proposed light rail might further enhance already good connectivity. And at the outskirts of Eric places like Schliemann at the head of the limit valley that were once-derided. Are now desirable in this will continue spreading along the river and rail corridor, but careful welled planned development must be the baseline a study by the Cirque examined the limb. Valley development underlining the need for cooperation between commune's and cantons to ensure high-quality livable places Baden is an example and a linchpin in this urban network. We know how to design good central city blocks, though is always implementation is a struggle. But what we don't know how to do very well as urban ass- is how exactly to knit complex agglomerations into cohesive holes while balancing, the individual character of places like Baden in preserving valuable natural. Amenities small cities and towns are the future in many places in what connects them what lies between is one of the great urbanistic questions of the coming decades. For monocle and Baden. I'm Jessica bridge. Time now for us to turn our focus to write sharing apps. Brazil is one of the biggest markets outside of the United States. In fact, more cabs last year were hailed in the sprawling business hub of some Paolo on any given day than in New York City and two given the size of the Brazilian market. Newcomers are quickly coming onboard eager to get their fair share of the business. One of such is lady driver, the all female right sharing company. That's taking some Paolo by storm earlier. I spoke to Monaco's correspondent in the city, loosen. The Elliott who is also a regular user of the app. Listen, thank you very much for joining us here on the business today. Now, we are turning to your home city of some Paolo to look at this new right sharing app. That is successfully penetrating the market. It is essentially an all female version of Uber. And I know that. You are user of this app as well. So why don't you get started by telling his a bit more about lady driver in fact, yesterday evening, I decided to log into lady drivers I hadn't used it in a while when it launched in two thousand seventeen here in some Polly, the service was fairly slow and there were few 'cause available when compared to the ride hailing giants like Uber in Kabul fi. So I'd set it to one side, but it's actually soared in popularity today. They have the two thousand drivers all women and around five hundred thousand passengers eventually downloaded the app just here in the city of some Paolo, which has roughly sort of twelve million in a city residents. And so it's a sizable sum and last night. It only took four minutes for the car to arrive very much in the same way as the other apps available with the exception that my driver was obviously female and my mother's age the app works, basically by validating the identity of passengers by way of that credit card information, which is the accepted payment method, and then the unique tax registration number held by everyone in Brazil and through this sort of a screening process. And Dr king confirm whether the uses a woman now, it's common for us to see all these different companies that try to implement the sort of right sharing model to compete with the likes of Uber or lift at cetera to come into cities and try to change things up. So what makes people choose lady driver instead of another application? It was set up by the founded Guthrie career who has self was victim actually of harassment while using another ridesharing up, and she said at the time that she kind of making a complaint online, and that gave her the idea of creating lady driver, which has a very open policy and focuses obviously very much on customer care it actually launched on International Women's Day in twenty seventeen. And there was a survey conducted by one of Brazil's most prominent newspapers the fallish on Paolo at the time that showed over half of Brazilian women have been victims of harassment with roughly five hundred women every hour that victims of some form of violence and many of these cases oversee take place on public transport. And so. There's a key market. And it's not just the passengers polls shown that almost half of female drivers have been harassed at least once during their work. Well, seventy five percent actually have reported feeling unsafe world driving male passengers at night. So the main objective of lady driver is to offer female passengers and drivers a safer alternative to other methods of private transport. It's also I think here seen as a way to help with employment too. So around ninety percent of all taxi drivers here, Arman. So by employing female drivers, there's a sense of customers sort of doing their part to reduce gender inequality. Really one thing. I notice yesterday was the motorist. Also, get a bigger cut of the takings. So the company actually charges. It's motorists only sixteen percent of their fares while their main competitors such as Uber Cava fi charge around twenty five percent now so far we've been talking just about some Paulo. But are there any plans that you off for? The company to expand beyond the city. Limit and go elsewhere or even to diversify their offer and provide other services to this week. In fact, the company launched new crowdfunding project, it's a sixty day equity raising whether hope to be able to collect some two and a half million Ray is around five hundred thousand years and third of that has actually already been met in recent days and the idea with those new funds is to expand other Brazilian cities unto others cities in Latin America where they see demand for turnips tuber other Brazilian companies here as well like stock racing companies car companies have actually invested last year. So that the up could be promoted outside the center of town to the outskirts, and it's worth remembering that unemployment is particularly high in the outskirts, and they're all rich around transport links. So there really is more demand for this kind of service further outta town you go. Whereas in the center of town already dominated by a lot of the other. Car companies, but as expected with any app that is trying to have such a particular place in the market here aimed just for females essentially, they're bound to attract some criticism as well. Mainly when it comes to the level of security that can or cannot be offered if you have to women of vehicle, the driver and the passenger rather than a male driver and female passenger is it really any safer. What do you think if you do have to women in a vehicle is that any safer house for the two of you inside, but not necessarily the how the passengers a perceived? I mean, I noticed near me. Some elderly women are starting to use the app. Thanks to the help of their granddaughters. Nieces you can help them navigate the only phone, but one of their concerns is do they feel actually comfortable knowing particularly women is being driven by someone who is a young woman, potentially tools the evening. So that is a concern. But obviously the women themselves are often perceived as. Safer drivers, right that the more aware that maybe just being able to accompany them close up to the door or just the level of care. That's likely different. There is also a big debate that it's not really doing anything to tackle the underlying problems at hand with sexual harassment cases a bit like the women only courage is in trains where there are arguments that simply normalizes harassment and abuse on public transport, but interestingly the founder career, she's really under no allusion that the app will serve to kind of end cases of harassment. What she argues is that it least alert society of the difficulties that women face, particularly in a big city like some Palo and that the size of the problem has meant that services, like lady driver ready need to exist. And it's I think it's important also really to have competition in this market where one brand really seems to dominate. Thank you Lucinda. That was monocle some Paolo. Correspondent listen to Elliott. And that's all for this week's episode of the urban est, I'm Kerr lottery Bello, and this show is that it had by David Stevens. Andhra talk will be back next week. But for now to play you out of this episode of the here's poolside with scenic drive. Thank you for listening city lovers.
Monocle 24: The Urbanist
Aired 5 months ago 73:30
Neil Monnery on Hong Kong and the Architect of Prosperity
Welcome to econ talk part of the library of economics and liberty. I'm your host. Russ Roberts at Stanford university's Hoover Institution. Our website is econ- talk dot org, or you can subscribe comment on this podcast and find links and other information related to today's conversation also find archives. We listened to every episode we've ever done going back to two thousand six or Email addresses mail contact dot org. We'd love to hear for. Today is September twenty eighteen. My guest is business consultant educator. An author Neil Monory his director of Asterix strategic management center at halt international business school before that he was the senior vice president and director at the Boston consulting group. His latest book is architect of prosperity, Sir, John Cowper weight and the making of Hong Kong, which is our subject for today. You know, welcomed econ talk. Thank you. So what do you think to write this book? Most of us have never heard of John carpets. Wait, he's not famous in the least he perhaps deserves to be in. What caused you think about writing and what did it take to actually write it? Given that there's not a lot of other Baga Fay's of the men and data think anyone's well. I across the u I was wired off to the great crash of two of the problems that are caused by not having enough growth. In the world. And I wanted to see whether there were areas countries the like which had come out and had good levels of grades. I came across Hong Kong, and as I learned more about Hong Kong, this name with white kept way keeps coming up as the person who's responsible full. The economic policies. Really said the Coles phone gone. I'm not interested in. So a little background on on Hong Kong and coverage. Wait, it's it's about a thousand square miles. It's size of Rhode Island for those you in America, it's about three times bigger than New York City's five boroughs. It's about fifty times the size of Manhattan, and I was surprised at this in my mind is just a little tiny rock with a lot of tall buildings, but it has some actual land space it population. Tell me if I've got this right at the end of World War Two was about six hundred thousand and what it clamps during the second world of food from about a million full two hundred thousand and now is about seven and a half million about three million in nineteen sixty. So for those of us who don't have much background in the history of the island, you know, I know it was basically British and now it's Chinese talk about how it was run during the crucial period. We're gonna talk. About which is post World War Two until the handover to the Chinese. It became a British colony in about eighteen in the eighteen Fulton is really in many ways to support trade with China and particularly opium trade. But in the period we talk about it was a if you like a standard British colony run by governor, supported by set of civil servants manip-. Some of was sitting on the executive committee, and then there were also unofficial members of of the executive committee on those people who appointed by the governor. Typically local Chinese businessmen all something that we would balance house and give a bit of a census to wealthy local people thought because it wasn't not democracy in the normal sense of the word. It was a colony run by non and what kind of economic activity is there today. It's famous for its banking and financial sector. I was surprised to learn how economically active. It was postwar to doing lots of other things. Yeah. I mean, because of that original basis of being a an entrepreneur eighty for Chinese trade, that's the first hundred is of the economy were tell teller leashes when an entrepot is it's a, it's word that doesn't crop up much in American English rise. It's it's basically. Trading hub. So people trading will need to get stuff out of China old, getting stuff into China would use it for warehousing, shipping breaking goods, things that from that, it's not to build a Jason activities like shipbuilding and insurance, and so. But in fact, most of that prayed ended with a lot of it ended with China when America impose sanctions on trade with China during the Korean wool. So bats that, in a sense destroy that business and Hongkong move very quick into trying to build a manufacturing base domini and things like textiles, but we may king them away and so on. And then it moved into electron- IX in the late sixties became very path, Lynn radios, and television and so on, and then is, as you say, it's ended up being now very much of an evolved financial services and others. Services economy. We used an interesting language back minute ago. I don't know. I don't think you intended to, but it's a common language that we always use in these kind of context. It somewhat misleading. He said Hong Kong, then moved into, or you may even said, I said, decided, but, but even plied it was sort of a top down decision. And of course, one of the themes your book is that there's a remarkably little economic planning of the standard kind. So the things you're talking about the move to textiles electron IX, those were the result of the independent decisions of hundreds or thousands of entrepreneurs and business people, many many or most, I guess almost all Chinese upsize so so that is absolutely ripe at various points. People in government will people in business suggested that it would be good to have some top down planning to see which sectors they won't move into with or not Grun certain sectors too far. Definitely should be constrained in some way and ready that was the battle of ideas camp was so strong on and really set the cools phone Kono putting that in the toll down fashion, but rather allowing the various entrepreneurs, the people who are deploying own capital to make those decisions as to to invest some of which what some of which didn't work, but very much Balsam up entrepreneurial system and also very much allowing the, you know, the creative destruction of those industries that no longer competitively advantage because the campway was always being assailed by people who wanted him to intervene into supporting one one sector. Nothing he pretty much always to them away. And if it's a good industry, it'll work and if it's a bad abandoned stray work. So it's nothing to do with me and that, and that was very powerful stance through that period of the fifty six. And how long afterwards in one piece of that economic history, I wanna make sure I mentioned, and then we'll turn to conference weights role in his various duties over this time postwar period. But one fascinating thing that happens over this time period is that Hong Kong becomes a very, very important export or of of textiles in yarn and and and various stuff for making clothes and gets makes political challenges for the two great leaders of free trade in the postwar era of the United States and and United Kingdom. And yet they, of course, violate as they often do their own. So called free trade principles for domestic political reasons to protect the case of England, I think is at Lancashire black. Yeah. Yeah, sure. And in America, sure was the Carolinas and in that period, probably load still could be some textile activity in New England. I must've moved to the Carolinas by that point. And so here desire need. The two leaders of the so-called free trade era are putting tremendous pressure in this during this time to limit Hong Kong's exports in Hong Kong. Although at wants to not do that is forced by its relative lack of power, even though it's a Hong even was British colony domestic British political import is that right bed were significance is such that they have to be. They have to deal with quotas in both the United States in England. That's right. I mean, the textile industry ready started up in the in the late nineteen forties as China itself to to Maui and communism. Many of the entre preneurs in that sector decided to relocate into Hong Kong number did, and they brought with them skills and machinery and understanding. And I didn't just started to grow rapidly and as you as you point out both the UK and the US had lodged heritage textile industries, which were complaining continuously around how Hong Kong do it, and they came up with the most remarkable set of pulses to doing it. Losing money, or they were cheating in some way. Whereas the reality was simply using more efficient machinery and use it more aspe- day and the like, but I put it as you say, huge amount of pressure on the British and the American political system because they had to stay true to their involvement with gases and late to the World Trade Organization. And so they had to get Hong Kong to voluntarily agree to limitations in the exports which which was was don't say straightforward. But Howard Millen in the in the UK in the nineteen sixties was very concerned about that in Kennedy in the US who was running action, then getting elected very consensual. So to keep that text constituency. So you'll write these great Bastin's of free trade when it comes to the crunch, not surprising. They find it very difficult to navigate political and economic cool through these. Cultists of of dislocation of the domestic industries. Certain irony there basely there's another Arnie which is that in many ways, Hong Kong is is between a rock and a hard place. One of those China, the other is the UK which is I don't know, twelve thousand miles away fifteen. I don't know how far long way way pending which all you go. But there it's even though they're snug up against China, they are involved with the rest of the world because of the nature of their economic activity. Yeah, very, very connected to tomorrow kids throughout the world. But as you say, from from political stone standpoint, in this difficult position of being British colony and in a way, even worse a British called any that had a had a clock ticking on it because it had been an agreement and back the the key parts of Hong Kong to China in nineteen Ninety-seven. And so as time was passing through the sixties and seventies people were increasingly concerned about what that would mean as as Hong Kong will get returned to China. So yes, very a very complicated political situation and one which requires on the amount of dexterity amongst the governor and senior civil servants and sewn in Hong Kong to manage politically. I would just mentioned one of my favorite lines from your book was that nineteen ninety seven handover. Was go. She aided in eighteen ninety seven. I can't. I wrote this down somewhere. I can't seem to find the exact quote, but eighteen ninety seven the the British negotiator decided a hundred years because one hundred years is like forever, but ninety five or nineteen seventy five. That was definitely not the case. Exactly if I feel like great at the time, but for the people actually left dealing with one hundred years later, it was clinic a great pressure in how to outta manage into the system that is evolved since nineteen ninety seven. And for the last bit of background, tell us about Mr. conference weighed himself. He was Scottish Intel us what his responsibilities were in Hong Kong and win. And when he retired and. Akron on the man. He he, he came from a middle class family who'd been involved in things like attacks collection and surveying and sold in Scotland. A lot of the people in involved in running the British empire bizarrely came from Scotland and he, he was one of them. He was a very bright guy. He, he read the classics Latin and Greek unders university gotta I, he then read the same again at Cambridge, go to a game getting a first means good for those those. Super, yeah. Very well. He could read Greek and Latin texts directly, and he did through the rest of his life what is also reading French tax in the eighteenth century French and sells a he. He was very educated. I think if it hadn't been for the second World War, he would probably have ended up. Classics teacher university or leading private school about the second world will intervened and he, he then ended up applying to become bought of the civil service cadet. The Hongkong cadet cool, which is a very elite form of civil servants who mocked outs of poss- promotion and the like he, he fortunately was on his way to Hong Kong as a captured by job that the Japanese. And so he didn't end up in Hong Kong. He probably would have been in for the whole of the wool. But instead arrived in nineteen forty five, Japan gave the surrender to gave colonie back to Britain, and he's first job was substantial job was to try and get industry back on its feet and to get supplies coming in the coordinate and say, he spent a little time actually running department which. Was involved in trading involved in pub- saying a rice, fuel and the like. And I think that was very formative influence full him later on his life to see how difficult it was for a set of civil servants to run a trading business and the like even became deputy financial secretary, which is finance, minister effectively between nineteen fifty one and nineteen sixty one. And then he was financial secretary between nineteen sixty one and nineteen seventy-one. So for about twenty five years, he was upset. He central to the economic policy formulation that was going on in Hong Kong. Because of his role, but also because of his intellect and his his strength of feeling about the right to pray choice of Hong Kong. Now, Hong Kong is famous for its free market policies. It's been held up by Milton Friedman and others as an exemplar of of sort of minimal laissez faire. Adam Smith Ian state, and one of the things I was surprised about in reading book was how interventionist they were now turns out to not so interventionist, but relative to what I had sort of believed or been told in this where my own buys come in being a free market person. I've always liked DEA that Hong Kong's Premark apologies explain their grave, explosive growth, but it's a liberal complicated. So give us a summary of the role of government in this postwar period, say of commerce, weights involvement, say, obviously right after the war. There was some price. Controls those those go away. But we've gotten past the worst of the postwar era, the devastate we were covered, they recovered from the devastation of the war in Ireland was was devastated. And while the economic infrastructure was destroyed, once that starts to come back, try to describe how active or inactive. Government was. And of course, there's an irony here, which is that here's a bunch of quote experts running the the place by not running it or by running it less than elsewhere or so tells give us a feel for how much running it they were doing. Yeah, I think I think one of the things that probably start striking you from reading the book on his, there are certain sectors where they get quite a launch amount of involvement in different ways. So for example, Hong Kong doesn't have the ability to collect enough also, and so fresh water there enough supply. So that needs to be a huge effort to build reservoirs and water collection facilities and the like, and the government comes quite involved typically in a regulatory basis on some of that, and there's old in things. I telephoned the telephone show because they view those natural monopolies. But in terms of the normal trading economy, trading manufacturing services and the like that as relatively light involvement, usually possibly some some level of regulation. But even that is generally relatively light and it some places, I guess them into problems and banking, but biologic relatively lights involvement in that and allows that part of the economy to operate three markets, either domestic markets will because Hong Kong has always been a free pulled and no import duties tariffs the world Bach. It was obviously very important in many sectors and provided the discipline full Laura efficiency and moving forward. For example, the. Export of textiles to the to the US into the European Union. We were talking about, say, there's a the all of those Sosa pots, the economy very much more in the hands of the preneurs. An like everywhere. I suppose there's a growing a provision of some of the social elements -education health and the like will the in Hong Kong in in general that has been slow into that provision being put in place of than it has been elsewhere. Indeed, one of Kupa Thwaites key points is ready to try and show that's a foldable and the that's built relatively slowly over time rather than being on pole put in deficit financing the like. So I think overall, it's, I think it would still be say it's quite a government. Light has been quite a lot of government lights economy about fifteen percent of cheap e fifteen to twenty percentage p was spent by the government of the sort of period until today. That's probably I guess, thirty thirty five percent in the US and typically forty to fifty percent in your. So still that, but it's it's a much smaller. I mean, coop white was not an amicus. He he did believe that there should be a government and that it should have certain important roles in in terms of providing rule of law, basic support of people in need the likes, but but it was a smaller scale. Van was happening at that time in Europe and the tax system is there's a ton little taxes which he polishes on shove, whenever they run a surplus, he he gets rid of attacks on televisions or whatever it is, but the the larger more significant, Texas. There's an income tax, correct? It's is it a flat tax above a certain amount? Is that the right description? It's a, it's a tax which tops out at fifteen percents income tax. During this period Olo. Lower rising of the time we talk about to Brown fifteen percent, and if you unless than that, you could pay a lower rate. And of course about half the population don't pay income tax tool. So does a level you need to one of the interesting things about Hong Kong tax system throughout this parrot and up to now is you got a cent tax on your income. Then you had a different tax on property things which has no relationship is consolidated into your income, an impact and the like. So you have different sheds tax, which means that they will tax rate is is is much low because you get an allowance on each one. And. By the way that's not much different than the United States today. Although it's a little misleading about a third to have depending on how you define the denominator, whether you're looking at tax returns or actual people pay no income tax United States. They do pay payroll tax though. Quite quite a bit. All workers do in the United States. They're lied to untold that that's to pay for their social security. In fact, it goes into the government religious spin out the door. Pardon me for that crew honesty there, but there's no payroll tax in on Kong thumb. Correct. And the other part that I found extremely interesting we should gone into more detail is that even though the government's providing, say, -cation or healthcare, it's not providing universally in, it's often charging for it. So even though the government schools, they're government run schools, they are. There's a fee and I because I. That because you mentioned that one point. They cut it in half when things are good and a little bit about how couch wait, and by the way you pronounce it now cow persuading tweet, but because you're you mentioned before, we started recording that it's not one hundred percent clear what is actual name is, but. Mr. Mr. conference, wait, he was very insistent on not providing welfare to the middle class in the rich through government services. I think I think absolutely one of his key believes he, he was passionately concerned with helping the most needy in society, but was very worried that if that stall to creepy in providing a lot of support full middle income people that would both create incentive problems, but would also slow the growth rates and has legit win something this, which is Hong Kong. Clearly over this period of developing cultivate. He believes that if entrepreneurs left with nothing come to ascend surplus to reinvest in new opportunities that will push up the growth rate, gang Fullwood an effort. If he starts taxing that in order to provide free education for for the middle classes, then. That will be out the expensive future growth which he sees as central to his his mission. If you lie to try and push the price right up in in in Hong Kong. So education is actually the the way the most dramatic because he, he, he one point says, he believes -cation is a very good thing, but even even things have to be paid full and say his strong preference as not provide universal university, free education or indeed anything else, but rouser to charge market prices and then to give complete subsidies to the most needy. So the very targeted use of state funds taxation is very well targeted on today's needy at the mice. He various points loses that battle and indeed lost that battle in India, Colson, education. But his starting point is always to say, well, let's try and be clear about what the market costs of these things are TriStars possible to put that into the market price. Boss whilst getting subsidies all grants for those who may needed who could otherwise folded. It also affects his. He has the very interesting set of arguments about water provision coming back to which if you, if you won't twenty four hour, we'll to provision in in Hong Kong in the fifties and sixties. That's very much more expensive set of Capulet spending that would be needed than if you did say we'll provision for five or six of the day, and he's, he says, well, you know, I, I'm not sure that it's the right aim to have twenty four. I to 'provision that's huge amount of results that we would be expended on that, and it would make hit at market prices unaffordable for the least well-off in society. So he he would much for example, even on something we'll vision to say, well, let the states intervene to try and ensure that some basic level that can be afforded by even the most need. In society and then allow the mock hit and private label to provide things that beyond that and always his battles. In defining the, you know, the the envelope of the state are around those sorts of issues about who should be getting it. How much should they began saying is their way to do it while still allowing marketable to work? I'm going to read a quote from him. I'm going to read some quotes later as well. But this one's related to what you just mentioned. He says the following, I find myself considered inhumane or unprogressive or sometimes merely odd of my colleagues as well as members of the public when I jest that it is not axiomatic that a twenty four hour supply in all circumstances must be our media Dame. I cannot myself see any grounds for the belief that a twenty four hour domestic water supply is an illegal right of civilized man. It may be if he can afford it and is prepared to pay the price. So that gives you, you know, as you mentioned, it gives. A really good look into his philosophy of government, very, very odd, an aggressive by modern, even. But even his day, which I think is what's one of the fascinating things about the book is that he's a spouse ING, a fairly limited view government at a time when the world is very much turning toward first deficit spending for counter countercyclical activity as well to help regret rid of recessions or downturns, as well as increasing role for government, especially in his home. Arket of the United Kingdom work. Government is nationalizing so coming much more socialistic and he's standing release work the tide of economic history. So even though what what I found fascinating about the book is that even though it isn't the free market paradise, I think it's been portrayed by some relative to the rest of the world its way out of step. Exactly. The important thing is he's doing it just because he's mean or unkind anyway, he's doing it because he believes that if the state the the level of spending the state is engaged with is Loa that will enable more funds to stay in the private sector. And he hopes believes that those will be reinvested in good capital projects. And through that economic growth will be higher and his his, his belief is that a by being constrained in the nit. You can have a set of positive effects in the long term, and he's very struck by the power of compounding. The like therefore understands that if he can get the growth rate debase Haya that will have great effects. The wages over the long term, Greg effects from ploy -ment. I mean, if if you remember this is the time when China is going through its. Cultural revolution with a lot of refugees tune up on the doorstep in Hong Kong every day, and he's wearing about, well, how do I get him? How we as the society employ these people and how they gonna find a role. And so he's really good, very different trade, awful set of preferences. Whereas I think the molten politician wants to give satisfaction now on a wide range of issues. He's sort of saying, what actually, if we hold back home that we may be able to get high levels of growth, and we would otherwise have and we sort of need those to deal with the large influx of people deal with aspirations still with term spending that we as a side who have just as an aside, we recently had an episode with Frank Takada on mouse great famine, which is roughly this during this period and it's right nineteen sixty one. I think having the famine but compromise involved before that during it after an just a technical question. How easy or hard was it to get into Hong Kong during this time period? What were the immigration? I'm sure there are a lot more people wanted to get get there than could, but a lot did. So how was that managed. When it went through a win through swings, various points prime. Prior to the revolution, it was relatively easier to to get into Hong Kong, has a long land land Boorda with with China that time. But it tightened up enormous because that was a huge wave during the cultural as from that podcast. The effect on people in China of the culture of Lucien was was, was very wiring with many people dying of starvation. The lichens that was a great demaim to try get into Hong Kong. So that was managed as best they could actually, technically, I think it's, it's actually the greatly foreword that leads to the fan, the culture relations that the next iteration. Stop, but but copper threats in there during too. So it's all relevant. Yes, that's right. He, I mean, the first one of course was the hundred flowers campaign in fifty six. When Mao said he liked to get feedback, but then he didn't really like the feedback Golz that sort of ended. Then there was the great leap forward, which was the the malware than than the cultural evolution. But I think it's my, it's almost a fascinating contrast between what's going on in Hong Kong that time just a few miles away across, you know about boulder. That point that's very different set of policies being an acted so you can control the, you know, the successive you like over this didn't Hong Kong with some of the issues, the CIA and I had out in that time. And of course there is selection bias Hong Kong's getting. Yes, somewhat. I mean, it's not which way goes because Hong Kong's getting both the most entrepreneurs people probably because there's very little scope front preneurs activity in China at this time, but they're also getting just poor pitiful people who are getting abused. Now, of course, as you say, they're different times they could get in and out. It was hard for them to get in all this raises a fascinating question, which we could spend the rest of the time on. I don't want to, but but it it needs to be mentioned, which is the following. I'm an American I've been to. I've been to England, and when I go, I'm struck by how uneasy young young people are with the Clonmel heritage of of British policy. So fling sample. You know, my favorite example, this I've mentioned on the year before the British Museum. It's it's basically the, it's a bunch of looting and theft that the British army did over imported over time and but that's about that's the embarrassing downside, bark shameful. The positive thing is they've preserved at all for the world and displayed it in a magnificent way, which is why they refused to give back the ultra marbles. If that's how you pronounce, it's the, which are the Greek sculptures from the. Parthenon have that right? I think that's right. But anyway, it's magnificent and it's also not so nice that England has become the storehouse of cultural history at the same time in it's administration of its various colonies. Well, I'd states, you know. You know, we didn't like it. So we had a revolution and we got glow freedom. Other places took a lot longer. A lot of people died along the way. There were wars. There was bad policy. Some people defended it as a form of a paternalistic necessity because the rest of the world was to uncivilized. And we look back on that now most westerners with shame which is understandable and yet in Hong Kong doesn't as far as I can tell in this period that we're talking about, we're not talking about eighteen fifty when England waged war gets China took stuff. Like Hong Kong, but in the administration itself, I kept thinking, what were they? What were they trying to do? What was there, you know, an economic, what were they maximizing? What were their goals? Was it? It sounds like it was to raise the living standards of the people who live there which makes and they were not a democracy. They did have this, the unofficial 's the advisory board, but they were just advisory board. What was it? Benign dictatorship, was it kind hearted. It's weird to be reading about Mr.. Cowbridge swayed who's the bureaucrats bureaucrat. A great mind, but still he's just, he's, he's running the economy maybe with very light hand, but what he's not trying to get reelected so he doesn't have to kowtow to anybody. And yet you'd have to ask what was success for him and who who was his what we're incentive city face. It's a long rambling. Intro questions responded. But I think you're right. There's a, there's a mix of unease about some of the elements of certainty Earlier Clinton and that on that one levels pans out into this paradigm. We, we have a, I think on these about that and also on these about the limited democracy that existed in Hong Kong. But I think there's also an interesting is you're saying this interesting element of the story, particularly over this period where I think having read through the archives on, I think my Steve quite good motives from the people involved you. You can oversee Ocoee whether they should have been involved, whether that should have been more self-determination in Iran. But I think actually many of the people I camp with weights and barris governor's arrest points to try and do a good job full the Hong. Hong people in fatty clear and finally clear way and and often when they clash with the British government, all with senior politicians, we'll see British civil servants to Britain. They very much take the side of the Hong Kong people, the long term side of the Hong Kong people. And that causes a lot of problems of time because they, they actually resolve how much people likely should pay for defense. They would have complete occupants with British civil service saying, well, we be issued pay unsolved, so they definitely. Had created a little bit for themselves a bit of an objective to try and do well for the Hong Kong. People maximize the progress of us society. But as as you say, very much an enabling and facilitating way to say the that was true Oviously as you were saying that oversee not true at all times and in all places saying, you know or place where there was enormous resource resource extraction. Yeah, yeah. So this is definitely not an attempt to say, this is a good bundle of government trying to his. The sippy saying his an interesting period was quite a stable economic policies, full all Driesen happens. But his what happens because you know that economic policy being stable full full fifty as the has been. And it is a sign, the all set of circumstances that have allowed such stability economic policy that is part of interest in terms of the natural experiment that came out of that. So you think about, say, China in eighteen fifty and and England in eighteen fifty versus China in nineteen fifty in England in nineteen fifty in the later period. I mean, China was very unmodern country in eighteen fifty. It had had an enormous. Probably high standard of living relative to the rest of the world for wild than it closed itself. Off from the rest of the world is the my simple narrative and they kinda Dag needed. And the rest of the world had the revolution and all of a sudden we're nineteen fifty. And finally, China get some. It's a big place and it's hard to run a country. You don't really run China in any real sense even today, I'm not sure you can run China about the economy. I'm just going about just figuring out what's going on where given the state of technology in and understanding. But. It some point it. It's pretty clear that now is is in charge and that China is a growing or wants to be a growing power in the world. And it's weird that they just take the island over now. I know that wanna war with with England in nineteen fifty or nineteen sixty. But when you talk about the defense of the island, what is it is the British, the British fleet sitting deer there to try to do anything if China said we want it. No, I think off. So prior to nine to the second world will that was the concept defendant judge chill before the cycle, new fifty? Well, Hong Kong was indefensible that point from Japan, but the same as the same is true literal from China. And if China had wanted to take about by full ready off to the side will that would have been possible. So I think it would have been defendable. And the about time we would talk about into them. So the culture of Lucien the beginning of the culture of Lucien in the sort of sixty six sixty seven period the British government, even sort of prepared a plan as to how they would evacuate Hong Kong and retrieved from should that happen. China ills had path or something to cut off the water supply the like. So you know, it was a fatty precarious situation required having China, at least onside or these. The extend that didn't invade in that period of nineteen sixty woods. Keep fifty islander stand that you wanted to sell stuff into China and you wanted to take stuff from China tea and other things, but. Nineteen. Fifty start to think. I started thinking quite as England care. One of the reasons it's. I mean in the in the nineteen, fifties and sixties Britain is getting out kits retreats as retreating. So it's it's, it's Hong Kong is the only east of Suez the phrase walls, major colony that it remains a Singapore is. Is given independence has all my stuff, the places leaving really just Hong Kong. So again, it's it's an anomaly in many ways. The last was retained, and I think that's partly because of the original treatise that said it would be British until nineteen ninety seven, and also the strength of feeling in Hong Kong and the number of people in Hong Kong who did not wish to point to these. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so I think it is an anomaly, you know, it's something that ran is calls for longer than mice by Kalinina's did. Rather than a grand plan if you like. Let's in that Barrett. It's funny when I was talking about the British colonial period I was I was thinking the back of my mind of the white man's burden and the rhetoric Kipling palm. When you east of Suez Kipling doesn't get enough exposure on contact. So I'm gonna do this from memory. I can't. I'm going to maybe it'll help me the the lie in its from the road to Mandalay. I think he says, send me somewhere east assu as where the best is like the worst were there ain't no ten commandments in a man can raise a thirst nights that there was up here breath. Thank you could be treated, don't really know. But. But the and I could remember ten commandments till I start reciting it. But there was a different time to as being, of course, in Egypt, east of Suez which was India all the other areas, sing Singapore, Hong Kong, British activity, east Suez. So very different. I think. Interesting. They actually, I would speculate that America actually was much keen of Britain retain home call. I bet you're right because it's power. I mean, the largest consulate that America had in the world was Hong Kong about time. So I think there was probably some listing activity gang on. Employees we, they probably weren't just stamping things. They probably wouldn't they. So I think that that that time with remember the reason for mentioning sue was obviously America didn't support Britain and FRANZ. When Britain fonts tried to retake control the sues that led to the if you like the the strategic inabilities retain the enticed of. But I think America decide different view on the value of Hong Kong. So there was a slight difference for that and courage listeners to watch the first season of the crown. The Suez canal crisis is is covered in some detail on how accurate is pretty accurate. I think it's a great program by the way they have no interest in British royalty, and I found it I couldn't stop watching as. Who would make Caceres this? Actually, it's healthy. It's tremendous. Anyway, back back to Mr.. One of the most entertaining parts of the book is the. Is the dog that doesn't bark the dogs that doesn't bark. In this case I keep waiting. I'm reading your book and I'm thinking, let's talk about GDP and Bros and in some measurement of, you know, as you say is very focused on growth. And I think actually was whether, you know, sometimes people say one thing don't do, don't do it, but he was focused on growth and I couldn't understand why you didn't give us any data. And then it came to this passage which I have to confess I love dearly. This is a quote from the book throughout his time in government, commerce refused to compile and distribute official data for economic output for most of his tenure financial secretary. He simply batted away requests for the data. When Milton Friedman visited Hong Kong in early nineteen sixties, he asked CalPERS, wait why? There was such limited information on national income, and then you quote freed Friedman, which is free to choose and. Right Cowper which I think is for even persuade explained that he had resisted requests from civil servants to provide such data because it was convinced that once the data was published, there will be pressure to use them for government intervention in the economy. That's right. He he, he was constantly under pressure. If you remember GDP type statistics started become common common currency just before the second world will and since as you say he, he was. He was interested in grave people not not unrealistic. Unfairly. So we'll, can you give me some measurement of that to achieve? He said no alter knee, say he. He did the very bureaucratic we's. He some poor academic. He's name. I remember but he said a, I'm setting up the study. I think this was in about nineteen sixty sixty two. I've set up a study to look at the feasability of collecting that type of information. And when you read the read, the files in the archives, you can see the complete pain that Goth way walls to this pull man. And he was constantly sending him back his drafts and saying the understand this, this needs further. So come nineteen sixty nine seventy later. He in the executive council said, well, yes, the the professor I've asked is having difficulty coming to closure on. On how we would do it. And I, you know, I think that's because it's not really useless to collect and so on. So this is this economic was lined up to be the the full guy, but capita was an had had had a reason. As you pointed out, which was paintings, GDP type data ready came along with the new deal with canes and a. He was convinced that if you, if you started collecting this data, then various points people say, well, GDP very well. We can spend more ole GDP day very well. We must intervene, therefore we should spend more spend mall. Spend mall strangely enough. It's always spin. That was very clear in his own mind about what the second older impact walls of quieting the Dayton. So he said, well, something to it doesn't affect anything. We will have the same policy, whether it says, is thousand dollars zero. Lois it went, went to what we do is government. So that was no point point collecting, of course, once once he'd gone his successive gateway little bit on that and started collecting the data. The less we we end up with today. But a fascinating point, I think he was probably prove, right? Actually, yeah, I have to a lot of my listeners are out there, economics, grad students, and economists proxy and communists have various kinds. And I think it's a matter of complete faith in our profession that data and numbers crucial for designing economic policy, and I'm somewhat sympathetic to that. I understand that, but I think we've neglected the reality that it also comes with a cost, and one of the cost is that GDP is one thing. It's not easy to measure to the best you can so many things. We measure measured poorly inaccurately in ways that are easily distorted, and it's a. It's a complicated thing. It's not straightforward. I think it's probably a net good that we measure a lot of things in the US economy, but it does come at a cost and it does. It is a way that fuels demand for intervention as them and the data give it a site that demand scientific Patna. I think that's right. I think the the existence of that type of data in a way must have the second effective people die full wanting to manage it influences and do stuff with this. And obviously the best would be the dates. When the you'll terribly Catholic resisting those precious but being humans, that's not always possible. And actually I think it's probably pronounced Patino, but pro polish for that. I wanna read a couple of excerpts from the book or from conference waits on words that I thought were. So extrordinary pause after each one and you can. You can add footnote or caveat or whatever you'd like the the first is. About attacks on Chinese prepared to a duties that tariffs on Chinese compared tobacco Cowper. This is from the couch weights, believe in reasonable tax rates was illustrated the most micro level by changing made the previous year to duties on Chinese prepared tobacco. He noted that his experiment in reducing the duty increase the yield from one hundred ten thousand dollars to one point, two million when the unofficial 's replied to the budget Lee, one of the officials in the advisory committee would underline the benefits of low tax rates. Quote, the reduction in the rate of duty has resulted in a tenfold increase in revenue. This gratifying result amply proves that a reasonable rate of duty resident ultimately brings in the revenue. It is sound policy to lay down a rate which people could be induced to obey the law rather than to break it. So an aside here is this is a a lot of people believe we cut. Tax rates raise more revenue. I don't think that's true in America at the current level of tax, but there is a level of tax which have said high enough, a reduction can increase revenue through this mechanism which is to get rid of the black market and have people make legal activities that are now taxable. Yeah. I mean, it was extremely keen. I mean, he was a British civil servant so he was he was extremely keen. The people pay that taxes and put a lot of foot into enforcement bought in his head. The could breakway was the level which created natural encouragement to to do the right thing rather than to to the black market. And I think time and time again, when he acted on these things, he he, he had the result you've just mentioned. I think it's also interesting. He, you know, he, the, you'll, you'll GDP pulling out again. He will get an of his ideas simply by wondering around listening to people. He, he had a lotta friends in various communities, Chinese, Asian, Indian on British in Hong Kong, and he would listen to the shoes, the. Happening in would develop policy on that in many ways, RAV of an principles he loved going back to first principles. Why would someone behave the way they are? And once he could, he could work out, you know how to regulate not regulate how to tax not tax. I think you're right. There's a Hong Kong, a story of having a very FOSS crying revenues really across all of the major tax areas at very relatively low levels attacks. The next example is from his view of parkings, which I enjoyed immensely. Here's the quote. He was concerned that providing government car parking spaces at below, their full cost would stifle the construction of private parking. Indeed, he was worried that that was already happening and he wintered if it was preventing private capital from any in the needs of the growing car, owning public, noting that quote, one trouble is when government gets into a business, it tends to make it uneconomic for anyone else. You you continue on this relatively minor issue combined a fairly detailed knowledge of the economics of car parking with some insights into the effect of government involvement. He had no problem applying his broader framework to specific issues, primos cleared that the government did not need to involve itself in car-parking, and if it did because the ownership of land in full market price should be charged. Yeah. I mean, that was his way of dealing with things he would. He would really. He had a set of philosophy that I think derise from classically canal mix and understanding why people behave the way they do, and he would then apply it in great detail whether that be compo king. I, I remember one budget. He started going on about sports facility that building completely trivial thing where he, he could. He had some feel for the numbers of what it costs to build and different spec levels that you could have. I mean, he he dived into these things, but he he was really always trying to get a bottom up sense of the underlying microeconomics. How does this work out of people pay? What are the costs if the government's involved? What happens? How does distort incentives? Does it distort capitalization? He, he was very interested in in trying. To work his way through that, how small the issue. I mean, sometimes they'll see it was much bigger issues on macroeconomic things, but but he was absolutely happy delving down into cop king and the like in the last quote, because this is just such an example, the conomic way of thinking I regard -education is a good thing, but we must still ask what a good thing costs how much we can afford and who's going to pay for it. Yeah. Can you imagine a politician. Today trying that line? Yeah, it'd be accused of not caring about the children. Now, as we, as you mentioned, compensates successor did start to measure some aspects trying to measure GDP income people gone back and we construct those measures. And if there's been an enormous transformation in Hong Kong San living over this period and subsequent to it, whether you wanna give conference weights, policies credit for some of that for setting a tone that his successors, even though they deviated to some extent, they still kept something of the same tone things don't have is. I mean, you have a lot of we have a lot of data on average income. The problem is that adverage income is of course distorted by people at the high end, you can have some credibly, wealthy financial folks coming into pulling up the average, whereas the median might be stagnant or or not moving at all to have any information about what's happening to the poorest people. Because again, when I think of a Friedman, I think Milton Friedman's defensive Hong Kong, his. Claim was that the the, the poorest people thrived through the policies, two policies that we're talking about. And yet we don't seem to have any real measure that. Is there any measure that the any, the any try? No. Is that if you look at? I think it's the bottom. Death of us is the Dessel in Hong Kong about a factor of eighteen nothing which is roughly the same as Singapore believe sixteen for the US. It is a probably a slightly last equal society of and the US. Bye bye. Bye bit. Yeah, I think that one of the things that is very important probation for Sony walls dig into that a bit is understand, housing costs because one of the most interesting elements away on congas deviated from the free market approaches in housing and about half the population in Hong Kong is housed in government built and run. Combination and for the people who live that they spend on average about nine percents of the income on housing. Whereas if you were in the UK, you would be spending tool three times that amount of percent of your income. So there's a very interesting if you've how they've through government intervention made housing, much more affordable, full many in society. So you need to, you need to build that in, but but I agree. That would be a very interesting for the for the piece of analysis lacob. I'm not so interested, the inequality. I'm more interested in the potential for improvement among the poorest people in my. My impression is that there are two DS did improve dramatically over this time period, but. I just add ironic note to our previous use the word ironic. I think it's my third time politics for that. But the last date of that I saw on the United States the top fifth earned seventeen times the average of the top fifth with seventeen times the average of the bottom. Fifth, okay. However, and this is why a carpets way didn't trust the collection of numbers. That's very large gap. Obviously, you could debate whether it's good or bad, but still seems kinda large. I suspect his larger than it wasn't nineteen twenty say the United States, but hundred hunt roughly unders ago. However, this is shocking in the average house. This is household income. The top fifth has let listers thing for a second. Guess how many earners there are in the top fifth of the house holding. Distribution? Well, turns out it's over to it's two point in the data. I remember now it was two point. Oh, four. Well, how can you were than to earn as well? You have my high school son who did some work over the summer. So we as a little bit to the household of not very much, but he still adds something. So there's about, but it's over to because most of the people in the top phys have a husband and wife. And who are there working guess how many earners are in the average household typical household in the bottom? Fifth, the answer there is about point four, five less than walk because most of them are elderly or young or retired or on welfare, their single, not married. So there's about five times the number of earners in the top than there is in the bottom. So if you correct for that, the top fifth of the benefit, is it really seventeen? It's more like four, three. So. It's numbers tricky. And just you point has to be right the, you know you to to to make a claim these things. Unity need to dig into them in some detail because they'll be they'll be, they'll be housing, cost issues that you need to adjust snow about. It will be clear while the fact is people cycling in an ounce of the different different quintiles and song. And I'm glad you mentioned the housing to bring it up. Did they charge for it? Oh yes. Yeah, so so crazy. Given all the things you've said before we've said before about his philosophy. Well, he he was he was provided for that. They charge. I understand, but that they built, they wouldn't let the private sector build housing for poor people is surprising. It is. It's very interesting on calm. I can't quite get to the buffalo in my own mind about this, which is clearly balsa market failure in the provision of house. Housing prior to some, there was some FIS in some shantytowns in the in the fifties and sixties and that ready coz the government say, well, we, we have to deal with this from a safety perspective, not just from an economic perspective become have this level of people being exposed to dangerous. So so actually a lot of the momentum was a political one around safety, but the way that keep with weight and another around him sort of created as well. We need to build houses that a very low cost. So they tend to be quite small ticket. Early versions in the fifties and sixties and ninety. Is tiny. Yeah, it's like a but also at a at a cost that people can afford to pay and in in capital, it's insistence return on capital of the government is put in so that squaring that circle constrains you quite loss into what type of housing you build. But I can't quite work out why the market was so great that has that was an has pretty much remained driven by government. That's a huge private construction industry in Hong Kong, building expensive accommodation. When you look at some of these jobs about west mice, expensive place, lips to live in the world, Hong Kong often tools the talk, but that's not true if you live in government commendation again, one of these problems with data which is. People measuring is, is market constructed markets Bill and told people, and I've been in Hong Kong in the cops on I, I'll finance people about the housing and they think is Britain because they end up spending really quite modest amounts of income. The average is nine send across the whole estates of their income being spent on housing, which is which is a pretty good price. Yeah, given his philosophy, I think he would have I soon the those that's tragedy which remember reading about in the book of those fires created tremendous clamor to quote do something. One thing to do is to build housing, which is going to eventually is carpet, would have admitted going to create an impression that there's a market failure because as the government crowds out all the private incentive to build. Low income cheap, small housing. It's easy to say that there's a failure, but who knows which what would happen feeds step back and instead puts a fire regulation, or he may have held that was in would not look sufficiently strong enough at there must have been a a lot of dinner table discussions in the car with household about the break with his philosophy. I think on that one because it will so dramatic. It was a lot of people killed. It was on Christmas day in nineteen fifty three, I think, and and said, because of that, I think the political pressures you'll have been very high. So I think it was his indecision. He, he spent a little time trying to say, well, we need to be clear about what the standards and sizes and costs we need to return on capital. I think he would have led with that policy. I think that was probably led by the governor embarrass the of the people. So he was. He wanted to try and maintain the economic incentives in that sector as much as possible. But but I, I agree, it's a really large and so successful that it is quite interesting to which is the chicken and the the market failure or the government involvement. It's clearly very big unsubstantial. But having said that is as you point out in the books, most of this time period, government expenditure, actual things as opposed to transfers on goods and services is is under ten percent if I'm directly with about a fraction still, but it's an interesting, it's an interesting exception. The other thought I had on the poverty issue and the impact of the growth on the poorest people. There is my Gratien the fact that so many people wanted to live there suggests that a pretty pleasant and they weren't mostly rich people in the early days. They were forced to the poor, a lot of them and they felt this was a place they could get ahead presumably the house he may help to knows I, yeah. I mean. The the influx of refugees and some would go into jobs, like textiles say, so very much low paid three, two to three shifts. Dolphin three shifts work, and that was a absorbing the people. It was one of the issues, the fight and the others will concerned about around what if we have in this great, because not that'll help deal with people who coming the relativity bond lodge pole. People talk about millions of people him. And on last thing on the economy when as I was reading the book, I happened to come across a gif on Twitter of about five seconds long. If I remember correct, they'll try to find it linked to it with the episode. It's a, it's a, it's a high speed animation of the transformation of one vista of Hong Kobe in in the first vista, it's probably over maybe nineteen sixty to the present. Roughly in the first fifty looks like you're looking at a large in enormous swamp or almost way some kind of wastelands some kind of Sierra low swampy area and in by the present in the five seconds, you watch it. It's transformed into this ridiculous modern cornucopia of high rise buildings apartments, presumably, and other office buildings. And how much of that do you want to give to Mr.. Wait that transformation. Of course, some of that comes from Chinese growth over this time period. The Chinese economy waking up and its modernisation. It's somewhat capitalist bent the investment from around the world coming pouring in there, but copper tweet leaves the nineteen seventy-one. I'm sure look better in nineteen seventy one than it did in nineteen fifty one or nineteen sixty one when he became finance secretary. But the last forty years really extrordinary. Yeah, I mean, they they are extrordinary but they are continuation. Actually. One of the things that I found interesting is that if you follow through off the his left, his, his philosophy is still embedded in many budgets and microeconomic policies and the like even to the current day. So you find that various points, financial new financial sectors will say, well, I'm absolutely going gonna stick to things like, for example, not running budget deficit. I'm I'm going to keep the state relatively small and taxation levels, no higher than they were when he left. So I think he created such a success if you live that, it's tended to mean that financial secretaries do refer new finish sectors, do refer back to that and and and argue that they are continuing that and they still in Hong Kong, have relatively low state involvement is slight behind the way last, but it's not. Materially. And I did during the course of of looking with this book, I told the current financial secretary of Hong Kong, and he would say this great continuity between the policies that camp with weight pursued at his time and the ones that are being deceived now say. So I think that is one of the fascinating things about it. It's a fifty relatively consistent set of economic policies and the results they're all, but we can. We can look at and if anything, the growth rates low Loa obscenity. But you might expect that in the last twenty years than it was in the in the twentieth around camp with weight, but but I would tend to focus pretty much onto the community. If you if you read the budget and I have done this, we read the latest budget from Hong Kong, could be written by Catholic, wait, much of it is similar. There's more of a nod to doing dealing with some of the social issues, but the some of the fundamental. Beliefs about taxation and government expenditure and deficit financing. The like the quite similar to where they were in the nineteen sixties and seventies. So let's close with that related question to that, which is in one thousand nine hundred seven somewhere east assu as becomes needs to sue as after this, the handover, the the territory to the Chinese. What changed legally if anything, obviously a lot. And what changed actually to the best of your ability to summarize that. Well, I think happened in nineteen ninety seven overstay full sovereignty over the two to China, but China agreed to have what they call two one one one country. Two systems and said for period of fifty is the nature of the Hong Kong economy and society would have some protection, and there were set of protections laid out in what was called the basic treaty. In theory, those will run with fifty years and they include things, for example, like conservative will Porsches fiscal policy, low taxation rights. So they're embedded in the basic treaty. Sort of going to be interesting over the over over the an twenty years and latte. Fifty transition. China may well want to have great a convergence and depending on how they do that and while they do, it'll be interesting to see how that affects the policies and that full the economic outcomes full Hong Kong. But in in principle. It's it. It should retain much of. It's interesting that it had over the period. We've been talking about. My guess today's been Neil Monory. His book is architect of prosperity. Thanks for being part of a contact. Thank you. This is econ- talk part of the library of economics and liberty for Maury, contact econ, talk dot org where you can also comment on today's podcast and find links readings related today's conversation. The sound engineer recon talk is rich yet. I'm your host Roberts. Thanks for listening. Talk to you on Monday.